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International travelers may soon be required to get COVID-19 vaccination before flying

KYW 24 Hour News

00:40 sec | Last month

International travelers may soon be required to get COVID-19 vaccination before flying

"Air travel could come booming back next year. But with the new rule travelers to certain countries must be vaccinated against the coronavirus before they can fly quotas. Boss Alan Joyce says. It's part of a no jab, no fly policy when the carrier look said overseas travel again, certainly for international visitors coming out and people leaving the country. We think that's a necessity, he says. It's all about safety. But the plan could backfire. Anti VAX is in Australia have reacted angry. Lead to the plan, going as far as launching a world wide boycott against Quantas shouldn't enforce such a ruling. Scott Maimon for CBS News, Brisbane, Australia

Boss Alan Joyce Quantas Australia Scott Maimon Cbs News Brisbane
"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

Scientific Sense

1:00:02 hr | 3 months ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

"Welcome to the site of accents podcast. Where we explore emerging ideas from signs, policy economics, and technology. My name is Gill eappen. We talk with woods, leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest. Scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation. Be Color a wide variety of domains red new discoveries are made. and New Technologies are developed on a daily basis. The most interested in how new ideas affect society. And help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation. V seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations bit researchers and leaders who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot. com. And displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics, guests at other ideas. Please send up to info at scientific sense. Dot Com. And I can be reached at Gil at eappen. Dot Info. My guests today's facade John. WHO's professor of Law and society at Griffith University in Brisbane Australia. He's also adjunct professor of law at Queensland University of Technology and Research Associated University College Under Center for Blockchain Technologies, he who suggests on the Bloomberg professional globalization of law and the technology in law. But come John. Hello. Thank you. Sure. Yeah. So I want to start with one of your recent people, professions and expertise hog machine learning, and blockchain redesigning the landscape of professional knowledge and organization. In invite you say machine learning has entered the world of the professions. The different impacts automation will have huge impacts on the nature of work and society. Engineering architecture and medicine or early and enthusiastic adopters. Other professions especially law at late you say at in some cases with leptons adopters. could you talk about you know sort of the landscape all? Of Law, profession and. They today in terms of opting these technologies. Certainly Louis interesting because it's a very old profession is. Often considered one of the. Original traditional professions along with medicine and the church. And in a sense law has used different kinds of technology might say I mean does it? Based around writing. And then the printing press and So on yet that. It's always being based on a craft. A skill which the individual person is that enables them to do, whatever is quote if you like and. said, there's never been a lot of room for any kind of automation. Certainly, the has been space for using. A people who are not fully qualified as low as about as paralegals, people like that, who will do a lot of repetitive work document checking and things like that and so on. But what will get into now is the situation where automation through machine learning. There's other kinds of artificial intelligence. is able to start constructing documents example contracts. Check dollop a documents for particular clauses and things like that mature they're up to date and this incense is. Replacing now, the kind of work that noise will do. So I think in some ways more more of of the profession of law is gonNA be subject to automation, but distinction I would many because I think it's quite important here is that A lot of what lawyers do. Is actually quite. Active that that that that the drafting contracts overtime or or they're reviewing documents to some sort or another or they're getting through particular. Negotiation. And so you know a lot of it is the same, but they build up the expertise through doing these same kinds of were over and over again and What we're now finding is that instead of having young lawyers coming in and doing what you might call the grunt work of checking documents and going through discovery applications where he goes through the size boxes of evidence to decide. which are the appropriate documents you want the emails, the invoices order, this sort of stuff that is the kind of work which is lending itself to automation. And, and so that his taking away a lot of the work which is used for trading purposes with young lawyers and is just doing it much quicker. will quickly I mean More efficiently in many ways and probably expensive much much expensive a Lotta. This work is being outsourced to you know legal process outsourcing India or Philippines South Africa places like that. So yeah, that's that's right and so in some ways, the group of lawyers who do the work which requires the skill, the judgment. Is Reducing in some ways. That pool is getting smaller. Yeah Yeah it's it's interesting. The the distinction that you make between automation. And in my job and let's call it decision making right which is you know a lot of work in the business side of this. So for example. in the nineties in large pharmaceutical company So you think about you know rnd. People might think it has really complex selection of programs that design of them, portfolio management, risk management, all those decisions. Genuine companies be say well, senior managers with lots of experience and intuition make those decisions really well right and so that's statement would automatically implied that machines can really do much there. But what we find in the mid nineties says that is systematic analysis of data make those decisions. Don't better. Actually, I've Tom to humans humans. Always seem to make decisions. These are typically bonding the decision. So if you go back and look at it, alternative experiment has not been wrong. So we have no date to say it was a good decision at typically. So human scaffold, fifty percents of making good decisions So do you know just throwing a coin or letting monkey make those decisions so? Yup We found that even complex decision making that humans hold. you know close to their you know kind of domain I'm not necessarily. So we have machines That could do that much better than I. Don't know there's an analog of that in in law I I. Think The may be actually I mean Two three years ago the royal. Society in England decided to arrange a working party on machine learning. One of the things that they put together a a roundtable on machine learning professions resolved to talk about that night and I talked about the history of professions in technology and. and. I think one of the peculiar things that came out to in relation to law is that law. Has always been a sort of on its own. If you think about medicine, for example, medicines always had the teacher hospital institution that sort of straddles the academic quilt and the practice walls and brings those people together and as a result. INCORPORATES loss of, scientific, work. Engineering work as well computing work and things like that. And that's been the first teaching hospital king into existence in in the French revolution in Seventeen eighty-nine. A long history of that. If you look at law, there was nothing equivalent to that whatsoever and there is in fact, actually a big gap between what academy does on what the practitioners in your do so that As a result as before law has come to this a quite late but what we are. Finding I think is that Certainly the management consultancy finding is that because of the nature of a lot of what goes on in legal office a remarkable amount of it can be automated. So what we are getting now is companies setting themselves up to do this automated work. So. We have companies which do nothing but contract our instruction formation sort of company. The typical lawyer would would say to a client Do you WANNA contract classes. Yes I want this for this. And loyal galway draft contract back with it, and then in the con- comes back against as I need another contract, you go through the same process. which is good for the lawyer but not necessarily good kind. What we're finding now is the company's not can think of a few of them that will, in fact, go into the company's show order contracts. Let's see the entire. Corpus of contracts you've got there and they will analyze them. And basically say, all right. We can create a new contract in automated way fairly easily it may need some modification according to special circumstances but on the whole, it's fairly standard and and they can do that INNOVA systematic world meaning the contracts are reviewed that checked. If they're going to expire marketing, you want an unable just the system will cope with that if you're. Yeah. So yeah. No No. No so I was just going to say yes. So that the distinction you make, you know in terms education sort of systematic graduate level education that because as you say, it is low in one sense of soft proficient. You say in called professions like made it to text reengineering this team has a strong concern ensuring that expertise applied in the public interest when as low little bit different from from bad and economics in some sense sort of in the same same vein we have now made economics at really odd. of mathematics you know north of analytics there. Whether they are actually useful from policy making perspective is left to debate but at least it has been an attempt to make this make economic video hard. So so I don't know A. Fascination has been in in law I very much that will happen in law. Oh there things are beginning to happen I mean let me just boob. At. One example I learned in that workshop that I mentioned the Royal Society held. With somebody from the engineering profession talking about. The difference in skills between people who above forty I'm below forty he said. If he he was about Forty Years Austin design an aeroplane, takeout pen and paper Pencil, and paper and. I don't know anyone under forty could do that would know how to do that go onto a computer program undecided there. So you can see that the incorporation of technology into the academy through to the actual. Occupation. Than phones and things is is already a standard and they're in law. It isn't law. As you said, it's still very much a soft skill although I will argue that there is a difference between the way nor is viewed in different parts of the world. So in the United States A law is I think more tilted towards the sciences. So low in economics is one of the big things in the. US. So you got a lot of people working in the of lower economics who might go onto antitrust work no competition work and things like that which across a lot of economics, mathematics and Statistics and so on. In, say a Europe Australia and so on. Law is more allied towards the humanities. And the classics. So it doesn't have that kind of scientific underpinning in that way. So anything that's going to change in these parts if you like is going to be something that's going to be imported from outside. And is going to have a very dramatic impact when whether it does An and I think that's yet to happen. I don't think there's been sort of Cambrian explosion. If you like in in law, the will be one I'm sure but but law has an advantage over engineering economics or the other areas you might. That's With the nature of the rule of law and absent justice is since law as a a way of ordering society is absolutely crucial to everything else. Then, Law and lawyers will say will look you know we have a special status here is different amid leave engineer. We certainly want to make sure bridges stay up. We don't want down but we can design different kinds of bridges. We can design different kinds of legal bills, but they're also the fundamental rules If you want to you know if you're an engineering company and you want to build a bridge in a different country, you're going to have to do it on the basis of the legal rules, which will be just vise by the lawyers according to the country's there in so on. So in in that was what? I might put in a special category if you live. Yea. Yea. Let me let me push NBA John. So. The. The conference that you mentioned you know the Internet is under forty and engineers at. So so one could argue you know from an engineering perspective could argue e- It sexually dangerous. To not use machines to build aircraft the goes you know all the technology that cap today actually help us make the trap lot safer. granted. If you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and Pencil, you might get the principal right. But, but the technology has advanced so much that you really have to use. Technology to do so in some sense, engineering is pushed back. that. I argue this myself then they were naive engineering school. I had a V exposed at my daughter bent to school. She used the same physics book. Twenty, five. meter. I argue that that is sort of backward because data speed no need for an engineer to really learn Newtonian physics anymore because it is prescriptive, it's deterministic can make machines, learn it very quickly and so why spend all? Right. So so then you know if you think about the the law field. I wonder if there is a senior argument that is to say Dan and tape really good lawyer casts lot of intuitions dot expedients to crap something Contract or a discourse, but then maybe the machine scan actually do it even better We haven't really tested that hypothesis yet. Right be almost have this idea that humans are always dominant. Or machines but that the not be true as technology lancers. So what do you think about that in the in the? It's a very important point actually because the. American bosses. being modifying its ethical rules recently to say that lawyers have a duty and obligation to keep up to date with technology. So we already know the technology is now a an important part and I have to say when when I say the word technology, I mean this at all kinds of levels from what you can do with Microsoft word for example, it strays plug ins all the way up to artificial intelligence IBM, Watson, or something like that So that if if lawyers become. A. Uses of technology whether this small firms or big firms or what have you a under the Aba now they they actually have an obligation to make sure that they are up to date. They can't just say we didn't know what we were doing. So I think in that respect, there is a there was a move. The other move that is taking place is actually the push from from the clients. Now, this you have to look into ways one is with corporate clients. The corporation seen US lawyers have to use noise if you'd like want their work done. PHILOS- money on Chiba they wanted to more efficiently They don't want the best piece of work every time they want something that works and they want officiant. UTA A and so on. So it was interesting I think a few years ago. The General Counsel Cisco. Actually made a speech. Saying that he expected his. Lawyers Law firms who worked for the company to be reducing their fees year on year. Now, that's the opposite of what lawyers normally do, which is to raise them year on year. So say that that's one push which is. Very profound push now, coming from the client himselves who are using the beginning to use their procurement departments in in the companies and things like that to help purchase legal services the other aspects which is just as important in this is if you look at the role of lawyers and individuals. So if you is what access to to legal services, it's expensive lawyers are not cheap they charge our money We don't know how to judge the quality of their work and so on. because. There was a credence which we just know that So. On this is where technology can begin to step in and provide services which are. Efficient and often quite. what very well for the individual saying that this. Technology can be seen to be improving access to justice a Lotta people. Yeah. Yeah yes. I want to come back to this. John. I think this is a very important point. So bent on put has a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty maybe not not the right term, but it's called deterministic. It shows beatty ability and so the determination of quality it's not as easy as hard media India nearing or. Right business economics legal all sorts of well foreign that category and the application of technology sort of a different different meaning there but I want to touch on one of the things that you say in the paper, and that is you mentioned this before and that's about training training the next generation. So you savior regulating bodies professions are involved in the collection and reproduction of knowledge intended to be used by the entire body professionals, and so there was an expectation here that you know seeing it professionals. Is Providing the wisdom that knowledge mission to train the next generation now in a technology driven. regime. discuss vacations right. Our expert is going to be a computer engineer in the future. And so so how does that work from from cleaning and knowledge Asian will I think this is This is a crucial issue in it's one which the profession hasn't. Really. Got To grips with yet I think because you think of technology in terms of Predictive analytics a document review and things like this most law schools are not preparing students for this they may be a a a a causal to on some aspect of technology, but it's not something which lawyers themselves are learning. So I think what is going to happen is we're going to find a blending of skills occurring. So law firms will be sense having to bring in a range of technologists who perhaps have. A scales a straddle, both sides of the lines, the lawyers like this too I think I think we're going to find an avangard Who will begin to develop skills that allow them to talk to both sides of the line, the tech people and? Below people if you likes and there will be people who will acquire develop these skills as well but that's that's still some way down the line I didn't think we're anywhere near there yet, and part of the reason for that I think is that you know law is still a very highly regulated profession and and the regulators themselves are in the same situation they are unsure about what is going to happen and they also feel they have an obligation to. Not only ensure that. Customers clients and consumers are protected but in some ways, the profession is protected to if you like so. You know it's it's a it's a fine balancing. There I. Think. It's a fight balancing act and you'd say if the changing changing things. So going back, you know you care as an individual eighteen status of expert. Some form of encapsulation of knowledge and analysis occurs enabling professional experts, derived diagnoses, decisions, and conclusion wrapped late. and you make some distinctions. Type of learning that. Human? Beings. That the distinction between doing drive and become a gift and laster Yes yes. Yes I think that's important. So the the the the principle behind this is that Individuals can acquire a lot of knowledge in in various areas. So as I say learning how to drive a car, you learn how to change gear you though with the speeds. Braking different rates, conditions, and things like that. So. If you WANNA take that further and become a formula one drive or something like that. Then you have to undergo a very different kind of training and that kind of thing becomes a lot more collective rather than individual because you start to you're you're going to be in a group that is gonna be doing a particular kind of our driving. If you like everybody in the group has to understand what each other is doing that group, you can't have people going right a racetrack at two hundred miles an hour or thinking individually feel like they have to have a collective consciousness. About. How to drive in that situation? That's nothing like how? You and I might drive. I'm not saying we bad drivers just saying spreading very different. So I think professional work is not. That different from this in a way. So once you you can go through school and you can do your law degree and you can learn your low. We can learn you engineering's this applies to or professions really. But in order to become a professional in order to become somebody who can operate function within that. Group if you like you then have yourself have to develop collective consciousness and and one way of thinking about it is that we we can kind of tacit knowledge. This assorted knowledge you learn on the job from people, which is not always articulated in a precise formulate kind way but it's something you pick up from the way. Somebody does something you just recognize aw that that's how they've done that might not be. Written down anywhere or anything like that. But you know that's different from now exiting differently from the way that wise doing I think X.'s doing it better I and you and you just, and you can absorb that. That's what I mean by this kind of tacit knowledge and that comes about from the professional context. As how the professional context develops becomes absolutely crucial to how you introduce new ways of doing things new my daddy's new skills new outlooks if you like and I. Think this is where we're on the cost of of this beginning to develop I mean we we know it's got to be done quite how it's going to be done. is yet to be. So. So let me make a statement John and I want I want your reaction to it so eat in hard sciences eight years against again medicine. Expertise has about a consistent happy of remorse. Whereas enor- economics and business in general, let's say expertise is not about the ability to apply rules but to deal with. and at and if that is true, it has lot of implications rate. It has implications as to how we might divide work. Between. And machine in the future. And the skills that universities need to impart on on on new graduates are also quite different. So I always argued in the business. engineering contexts that universities having changed the dog they get mentioned before they're using the same. Using the same. Out Thirty four years without asking the question are those skills relevant, anymore or more importantly watch. Really relevant for a human being in the future rate. do you agree with that that expertise assert more about dealing exceptions apply? Putting it actually. I. I can see the logic behind what you. Saying I think what distinguishes? A good professional whether it's a good engineer good architect or good lawyer or doctor is is somebody who has a certain? This may sound strange but it's the. Imagination. Creativity. about. Kind of flare that allows them to function on the nausea they they've got and developed over the years and the experience. Gathered from Nova pitching what they'd be doing over the years and so on, and it allows them to see around things in ways which they perhaps would. I can give you an example if you like a law. So I'm in in Germany and some other countries. For example, there's a particular way of bundling together mortgage securities I I won't go to detail about this, but this statute that enables you do it. And then you can sell these securities and get money. In certain countries, the UK, the US, and so on. This, NICI. So in a sense to put this kind of a a deal together it. Couldn't be done if you live. So a bank came to one of the large English law firms and said, look we wanted we want to replicate this in in the UK, want to set a market this we're not the statues off there. What can you do and what was interesting was that the law firm then went back to first principles lawyers who were looking at this went back I suppose they looked at some vape basic areas of law matter your trust. And contract from what have you? I'm from that they constructed elite supplement that looked very much like the one in Germany, but without stat sheet and they tested it and it worked. Out To be credibly successful. So much so that the German government started German legal profession started to complain because they said. You can only do this by statute and these we find a way of doing it three. I suppose using law and there it is an they were vowed shops by but that was a particular example if you like of of what you were talking about, they took the exceptions they went back to first principles and said you know or How would we get? This is where we gotta get to, and this is a way right at the beginning what are the steps we need to take and and? And that's what a good loyal will do if you. Right right? Yeah. So that's very important point. So you in your paper dawn as the DREYFUSS and rice note that the proficient performer immersed in the world of skillful activities sees what needs to be done. But decides how to do it. So as we move into a and other technologies, I think it's important point it is. Right from Dad benefactor culture we have been using humans as you mentioned before in lots of with meted activities big not designed for humans I would I would contend enjoy doing things over and over again, and if you had thought of doing that, yeah, because they have to do it for living right and so so we should be moving to word It would where anything that is with pita on delegated to the machine at automation in the bottom of that and Appealed autonation you can have intelligent automation you can have you know reinforcement learning those types of things you have some aspects of intelligence into the into the two. And deploy humans Don't Miss. They're really good at in some case. I'm. So you know we've been studying the green for ages be our no close. It feels to understand mother. Heck it does You know it's not neat learning it. Oh, BBC of. thirty years ago as see that person again, you could see you could you could have a feeling. Then you've seen that before and and what the brain has done actually not only as he that pattern but also age that matter intuitively for thirty years and say, yes, that face I, guess before. and. So there are some superpowers the brain has reaped have been applying the all all. So for a technology might allow. Look I. Think Technology will allow us to incredibly complex things without having to think about too much I. Mean if you look at the way a port functions, for example, any major port these days they've got millions of containers and ships going through them all the time. So there's a lot of paper going through the you those charter parties, bills of lading guarantees. So the lot of legal work that's being done it, it's all quite standard stuff. I mean everybody. KNOWS, what needs to be done and so on. Now, some people are beginning to think while the best way to handle a port if you like I for everybody should know is to put everything that's going on in the poor into a blockchain so that you can see the whole supply chain. You see when something comes in, you can determine when the goods are being offloaded. When they're being shipped, you can stop making the payments as a result of the. Operation of the smart contracts if you like, and the whole thing would be just one quite seamless. In some ways without that much human intervention really just need oversight Some bits of coordination so on. But at the moment is still a a lot of humans are vote in that shipping people, law people, all sorts of things which is. I think insane. That's a waste of resources. We know that there are people who have all kinds of problems that require that creative flair she like as so why waste money on the routine stuff when you could develop skills to the the real need if you like in that way? Yeah Yeah. So I, want that some that bit that John Blockchain, for example, as you mentioned. So so one reason especially in the professions like law and business humans have an advantage justice dimension of trust. and you know at least our generation we don't really. At eighty level, right. So so having that. Human human touch is still extremely important for us. Now, technologies like Blockchain, for example, actually allows that trust to be tensely decoupled, right? Yeah, and I think I think you're right. Look I. Think I mean one of the reasons we make contracts is because We, don't trust each other. So we we devised these documents with all the conditions in them. Something goes wrong. This is what will happen things like that and so on. What are the interesting things? You know people really rely on contracts are met you. You draw up a contract. And the to business people stick him in the drawer I never look at again less something really really fundamental goes wrong but they know sumit doesn't that never look at that again. So you say value of the contract, what did it actually do if you look at some of the Asian countries say like Taiwan or parts of China, you have a assistant coach Guanxi, which is where people developed effective relationships by knowing each other over a period of time around business that allows them to develop trust it. So You know there are different ways of of handling trust, but we we seem to spend a lot of time on trying to minimize something You know which we don't really do a lot of if you like. So I think one of the advantages of of blockchain is that it just it removes a lot of this from from the equation if there's certain things you know that can happen. as a result off if this thing that systems. Lead happened And you know. As, long as you've got oversight and you can see what's going on than. You don't need to be too concerned about it. It will just do what it needs to do in that way and So. Again. That's still very much in the early stages, but we are seeing situations where supply chains A shipping goods from one country to another can actually be done under smart contracts through a blockchain. Technology if you live. That that is now happening I associate goodful dealing with things like gum counterfeiting if you're. Producing. Particular high-quality could site move our phones or particular pharmaceutical products and so on you know it's one way of guaranteeing the quality of the product is you couldn't I say look you can examine the whole supply chain or the data is there. And you know his Eq- code look at it and you get the whole thing going all the way back The. Again, issues around that if you're dealing with the digital. Is Much easier once you start dealing with physical products then you have. A question of how do you get that first initial digitization of the physical if you'd like to goes on so though some people I know here in Australia who? Run A company called Beef Ledger, which is trying to export beef straight beef to China using the blockchain supply chain, which will. Guarantee the security, and the quality of the goods to the Chinese consumer APP because having problems with this before. But I will tell you now do doing something like that does require that the people you are dealing with. You're going to set this up with You have to have a trusting relationship with you before you can set up a technology that will do away with the So we're still in that. That's really early days. I think another a lot of time way to go right Yeah, but the technology works it. Clean potential one could argue contracts exist because they probably known performance if you have a technology that drives that probably the of non-performance zero, then you can actually get rid of for contract. Yeah limit. It is. Not. Goes back to that earlier point I made that. Most most contracts are fairly standard. You know a routine things they're there to. Record a series of transactions payments that have gone on between people without the to do much. If you like you know once you you're you're doing the business, the contract just kind of records that in perpetuity. So the small contract just takes that into a different area and an an actually does the whole implementation and execution without people to be involved in that too much and there's something goes wrong. But if it if it all goes right then back it is done you need to you don't you think about it Right. Yeah. Hasn't been jumping to another are forthcoming people globalization law at. A time of crisis in the? Global Lawyer and so in the say Nikolai Condom Nieve a Russian economists in the nineteen thirties believed the worst economy operates long sixty year cycles Then he called K. Braves. And you safeguarding coronavirus analysis, the fifth psycho young's from nineteen eighty to twenty thirty. It's you save twenty, nineteen forthcoming John You might have. I think so I think say because I, tell you off the what's happening this year I thought my good I couldn't My God. I was just. Owners because you know a contract device these waves up into into what he calls four seasons spring summer or winter at, and we're in the winter off this fifth cycle if you like this is. All the bad stuff happens and he's news war. Famine Disease I think wait a minute that sounds Yes yes. That's exactly right. A. But one of the interesting things about contractors was that you know he he a because he's A. Solid economists are installing a dip executed. By the way you know he he got fed up ninety that was the end of Nikolai unfortunately but he. He said instead of know if you like the ownership of the means of production are being the determinate for changeover from system system, he said it's it's technology and and that the technology will drive you out of the downswing of the last cycle into the upswing of the new cycle, and and the way that works is the win. You're in this kind of winter period because of the kind of economic. Gloom pervades if you like people tend to hold back in subsurface vestment in terms of technological innovation of what have you and so a lot of energy resources, resources, money capital if you like builds up to a second point when people say we're GONNA go for this is this is it? And that's when if you like technology comes to the fall on, really drives it forward. So from that perspective, what he's saying is that you know come right about twenty thirty. If. Things are going slowly now regarding technology they're going to speed up. In. This period and that's when it will. You know really also take take off and people have looked back over our preceding cycles and they've you know it works if you like not just their. Fantasy theory there are also the people who do Cleo dynamics in history these the quantitative historians and they've done a similar kind of analysis of historical periods and said, yeah, you know there are all these citrical. Processes that take place even revolutions occur and big upset occurs and what have you and and. One of their Perspectives which I find quite interesting is that they say one of the reasons for revolutions come about is caused a lease beginning to compete with each other and and an an I look at say trump in in America and I look at the Democrats and I I I would say Modine, India I look she in China and different groups of elites who are engaged really profound struggle for the future of their countries if you live. Out which again is leading to this kind of potential eruption of activity and a new ways of doing things. Yeah. It makes a lot of intuitive sense gone. So one way to think about this also. There are a lot of excesses. So innovating go good their excesses in the system people to believe that invincible they changed assumptions about. because they don't see any. and. Financial markets to right. So these cycles and real real mass that uniquely talking about you can see the. Happening in the financial markets more clearly. But what he's saying is that he happens mortgage and you ask in this paper in two thousand, nineteen for in many ways go. Crystallization off the settling ketone economic forces lost throat ear Kublai doomed as populous. Separates nationalism and lead clients and I think they have that we have probably the answer to that. But you see I think. One of the points I was trying to make an in in this paper walls that Global Law. If you like is is, is the a kind of synthesis off chaos? How do we bring some kind of order to chaos now once you start seeing the undermining? Of his global institutions, you see trump was withdrawn from the W. H. O.. He's he's are criticized NATO he he won't have the do with the International, Criminal Court and so we've got this kind of real life tension now between a an international legal order that's being built up since the Second World War both Ekit economic and legal order is Global And so we can't just a radical globalization I mean even even with covert, we can't eradicate mobilize ation we've got to. Handle covert the Kobe pandemic on a global basis. Otherwise, we'll. We're lost it retreats to a national. Approach is not gonNA. Work? We'll be defeated in that race is going to be global. Might. Be One of my questions in in paper was will who are the people who are going to be doing this? Kind of bringing the the order to chaos if you like and that made argument that it's got to be the global lawyer. And this is a person who not only understand their national legal system but also able to communicate with lawyers and officials. From around the world if you like. To be able to develop a kind of common. Language common discourse that enables them to stop putting these things together are, and it's not just a simple massa of saying mathematically, it works this way or not. It requires the kind of pulling together of people, but it requires that sort of common understanding which. Comes out of what I was saying about this idea of testing knowledge you know as you got this kind of professional consciousness you know how people ought to behave and how they will interact with you, and then that enables you to be out of bizarre to predict how you can do things and so on and so on. That basis I think we can operate kind of global order. It had a a below the institutional level if you're not kind of private. As opposed to the public according and that will put three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah you know I the limit John I don't know if you think this way I limit one could as. Want to stay need for. Countries what does the need for legal system differentials? We set this up with the premise that it's easier to manage small chunks. one could also argue with Edmund Affect. -nology that you don't need to segment this debate that we have done. which might make these types of issues you know. See where you're coming from and I'm going to say yes or no? Yes, I think the home range of of questions that can be handled by the technology the ones we got pay I don't chain, etc. I don't I didn't see any issues there but there are a lot of decisions that needs to be made a book in terms of putting things together and resolve disputes that can only function at a human level because it's not. These are not decisions that are simple binary decisions. If you'd like, it's yes or no it's it's often a lot more nuance than complex about I mean, one of the resources in the World Kiva Zero System, the world amendment which is being fought over if you like is water, a water is probably one of the most valuable resources anywhere and it's you often find that rivers and things like that sort of flow between countries, they form borders. And and you are you know people if you look at the Nile, ESL start stopping in Sudan throwaway down to the Mediterranean. So he goes to countries all three countries, east European and then into Egypt's and so unwell well, who has the right to put it dime at a particular place and things like that all of that has to be cooled in act. You see a not going to be done at a human level that that's what caused the skills in negotiation judgment interpretation understanding if you like of the other people, no machine can do that I got. Yes before we conclude, I want to touch on one other thing So in the paper, you say as technology and culture intersect more and more. Ethical conundrums will intensify these raising questions about the rights and obligations of robots. And go beyond as moves. Three laws of robotics in two issues of rights of all moon. Algorithm, stem serves. So this is this is an area that be Kevin babies even even really form some notions allowed rights of all modes at rights of a are. Sai, gets more sophisticated. Yes. Yes. I do. I, mean I think this is one of the issues we already know some of the problems with algorithms and and you know can we can be are they transplanted from you see what's going on the ethical issues around the construction and implementation of algorithms and things like that. But I I I think looking into the future we all going to rely on things like robots. And various kinds of machines so much more so that if you look at a country like Japan, which is a a an aging population such that it doesn't have sufficient younger people to look after the people who need looking often. So machines, I'll be part of that, and that means people will stop forming real relationships with machines and and so that's when I would say. Okay. So let's think about how we View a potential rights of machine that we give. We give rise to humans. Yes. We know that we give rights to animals. Now we've also given rights to viz in forest in some countries as well as so machines I think our. Next logical step you know do we do we treat them with respect Let me give you one. Very classic example yet the production of. Robots for sex if you like is a major industry at the moment, some manufacturers say they want to program them say that people can act out rape fantasies will do we want that I? Mean you know should we be at first of all? You know? We should be having people behave in this particular kind of way, but even an uncertain if you do it against another human being, you'll be punished for it and you say we'll a machine is a piece of property you should be you should be doing that but I'm getting to think that maybe a machines should be treated with dignity say that we are treat ourselves with. Dixie. This a kind of reflexive situation here what we? Do to machines we do to each other, and they may again due to US depending on how they evolve and and move forward in that way is a very contentious issue. A lot of people would reject that right out of hand I agree I think we've got to stop thinking about stop dining forward because I. think we're going to at some point again. I. Don't know when. But at some point we will be having to deal with that. It's a it's a very important point. Joan. So if I understand you correctly, you know that the rights to animals the rights to inanimate. INANIMATE things like Lubers The recent those exist is because of its effects on humans and can see video a clear link in the future we would see a very clear link between a algorithms and robots ended affects on human. So this is not me You know each not fantasy in the sense that yeah, robots should have rights, but rather it's a more conceptual question. Any fraud did not have rights each going to cabin negative I I think that's absolutely true. I mean just to highlight that if you like this firm called Boston Dynamics that produces. Robots and they produced these videos of these. Now, these robots are resistant being pushed over and things like that, and it was quite interesting because a lot of people say all you can't treat them in this way. This is awful and so what I mean that that's the answer for more fighting to to the extreme extent. But it I think you know on the basis what you're saying, you know how we Oakland. Hold human beings accountable to each other in an increasingly complex world machines have become part of that. We can't just have them all sitting on the edge as though they're not part of who we are, what we are and how we do things. Right. So. Incursion Johnny fuel sort of look forward five years. At. The intersection of law and technology. But you think people see sort of the biggest. I. Think you'll see it two wins. On the you know for the individual The individual, you're going to see a lot of them just interacting. With artificial Tennessee, say lost questions about what my rights for this how do I deal with a tendency agreement? How do I complain against a producer company or something like that or that's going to be automated? is fairly straightforward to do and and it will only need A. Minimal. Amount of human inside of. An intervention if you like. At the other end at the. In I think we're GONNA see more and more technology coming in because as those basic functions that are. Being, carried out by junior people or or paralegals or things like that are the ones which are going to be increasing, automating creasing. I'm. We will replace the humans and just let machines do that because there's no point in wasting human resources on that whether that means we need fuel or more lawyers That's an open question I think it will that we need different kinds of lawyers We will need Roy Moore to logically aware much more sophisticated. They don't it's be programmers or odors or anything like that, but they need to have a quite a a a a strong understanding and gross what's going on in technology in that way if you like so. Yeah. We can definitely see an. Yeah, so I, think you mentioned the so from a structure perspective in all forum DC law firm sprucing to word. It a group of equity partners. Around it by machine so to speak well, I. Think. I was in that paper or another one I. I'm S-. Forecast. Law. Firms. Being. Distributed decentralized we'll tournaments organizations running on a blockchain with with the various people. into setting when they will no I. Think the law firm is still a very strong and powerful is Shutian, that's not gonNA disappear straight away. But certainly the numbers of partners who control things will shrink. They'll that will get smarter as proportion and yes, they will be surrounded by machines and they surrounded by people who are servicing those machines. Your excellent. Yeah. Thanks for doing this weekend. John really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much. It's been great fun and very interesting and and you know. I. I have enjoyed this too so.

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

Scientific Sense

59:58 min | 3 months ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

"Welcome to the site of accents podcast. Where we explore emerging ideas from signs, policy economics, and technology. My name is Gill eappen. We talk with woods, leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest. Scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation. Be Color a wide variety of domains red new discoveries are made. and New Technologies are developed on a daily basis. The most interested in how new ideas affect society. And help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation. V seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations bit researchers and leaders who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot. com. And displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics, guests at other ideas. Please send up to info at scientific sense. Dot Com. And I can be reached at Gil at eappen. Dot Info. My guests today's facade John. WHO's professor of Law and society at Griffith University in Brisbane Australia. He's also adjunct professor of law at Queensland University of Technology and Research Associated University College Under Center for Blockchain Technologies, he who suggests on the Bloomberg professional globalization of law and the technology in law. But come John. Hello. Thank you. Sure. Yeah. So I want to start with one of your recent people, professions and expertise hog machine learning, and blockchain redesigning the landscape of professional knowledge and organization. In invite you say machine learning has entered the world of the professions. The different impacts automation will have huge impacts on the nature of work and society. Engineering architecture and medicine or early and enthusiastic adopters. Other professions especially law at late you say at in some cases with leptons adopters. could you talk about you know sort of the landscape all? Of Law, profession and. They today in terms of opting these technologies. Certainly Louis interesting because it's a very old profession is. Often considered one of the. Original traditional professions along with medicine and the church. And in a sense law has used different kinds of technology might say I mean does it? Based around writing. And then the printing press and So on yet that. It's always being based on a craft. A skill which the individual person is that enables them to do, whatever is quote if you like and. said, there's never been a lot of room for any kind of automation. Certainly, the has been space for using. A people who are not fully qualified as low as about as paralegals, people like that, who will do a lot of repetitive work document checking and things like that and so on. But what will get into now is the situation where automation through machine learning. There's other kinds of artificial intelligence. is able to start constructing documents example contracts. Check dollop a documents for particular clauses and things like that mature they're up to date and this incense is. Replacing now, the kind of work that noise will do. So I think in some ways more more of of the profession of law is gonNA be subject to automation, but distinction I would many because I think it's quite important here is that A lot of what lawyers do. Is actually quite. Active that that that that the drafting contracts overtime or or they're reviewing documents to some sort or another or they're getting through particular. Negotiation. And so you know a lot of it is the same, but they build up the expertise through doing these same kinds of were over and over again and What we're now finding is that instead of having young lawyers coming in and doing what you might call the grunt work of checking documents and going through discovery applications where he goes through the size boxes of evidence to decide. which are the appropriate documents you want the emails, the invoices order, this sort of stuff that is the kind of work which is lending itself to automation. And, and so that his taking away a lot of the work which is used for trading purposes with young lawyers and is just doing it much quicker. will quickly I mean More efficiently in many ways and probably expensive much much expensive a Lotta. This work is being outsourced to you know legal process outsourcing India or Philippines South Africa places like that. So yeah, that's that's right and so in some ways, the group of lawyers who do the work which requires the skill, the judgment. Is Reducing in some ways. That pool is getting smaller. Yeah Yeah it's it's interesting. The the distinction that you make between automation. And in my job and let's call it decision making right which is you know a lot of work in the business side of this. So for example. in the nineties in large pharmaceutical company So you think about you know rnd. People might think it has really complex selection of programs that design of them, portfolio management, risk management, all those decisions. Genuine companies be say well, senior managers with lots of experience and intuition make those decisions really well right and so that's statement would automatically implied that machines can really do much there. But what we find in the mid nineties says that is systematic analysis of data make those decisions. Don't better. Actually, I've Tom to humans humans. Always seem to make decisions. These are typically bonding the decision. So if you go back and look at it, alternative experiment has not been wrong. So we have no date to say it was a good decision at typically. So human scaffold, fifty percents of making good decisions So do you know just throwing a coin or letting monkey make those decisions so? Yup We found that even complex decision making that humans hold. you know close to their you know kind of domain I'm not necessarily. So we have machines That could do that much better than I. Don't know there's an analog of that in in law I I. Think The may be actually I mean Two three years ago the royal. Society in England decided to arrange a working party on machine learning. One of the things that they put together a a roundtable on machine learning professions resolved to talk about that night and I talked about the history of professions in technology and. and. I think one of the peculiar things that came out to in relation to law is that law. Has always been a sort of on its own. If you think about medicine, for example, medicines always had the teacher hospital institution that sort of straddles the academic quilt and the practice walls and brings those people together and as a result. INCORPORATES loss of, scientific, work. Engineering work as well computing work and things like that. And that's been the first teaching hospital king into existence in in the French revolution in Seventeen eighty-nine. A long history of that. If you look at law, there was nothing equivalent to that whatsoever and there is in fact, actually a big gap between what academy does on what the practitioners in your do so that As a result as before law has come to this a quite late but what we are. Finding I think is that Certainly the management consultancy finding is that because of the nature of a lot of what goes on in legal office a remarkable amount of it can be automated. So what we are getting now is companies setting themselves up to do this automated work. So. We have companies which do nothing but contract our instruction formation sort of company. The typical lawyer would would say to a client Do you WANNA contract classes. Yes I want this for this. And loyal galway draft contract back with it, and then in the con- comes back against as I need another contract, you go through the same process. which is good for the lawyer but not necessarily good kind. What we're finding now is the company's not can think of a few of them that will, in fact, go into the company's show order contracts. Let's see the entire. Corpus of contracts you've got there and they will analyze them. And basically say, all right. We can create a new contract in automated way fairly easily it may need some modification according to special circumstances but on the whole, it's fairly standard and and they can do that INNOVA systematic world meaning the contracts are reviewed that checked. If they're going to expire marketing, you want an unable just the system will cope with that if you're. Yeah. So yeah. No No. No so I was just going to say yes. So that the distinction you make, you know in terms education sort of systematic graduate level education that because as you say, it is low in one sense of soft proficient. You say in called professions like made it to text reengineering this team has a strong concern ensuring that expertise applied in the public interest when as low little bit different from from bad and economics in some sense sort of in the same same vein we have now made economics at really odd. of mathematics you know north of analytics there. Whether they are actually useful from policy making perspective is left to debate but at least it has been an attempt to make this make economic video hard. So so I don't know A. Fascination has been in in law I very much that will happen in law. Oh there things are beginning to happen I mean let me just boob. At. One example I learned in that workshop that I mentioned the Royal Society held. With somebody from the engineering profession talking about. The difference in skills between people who above forty I'm below forty he said. If he he was about Forty Years Austin design an aeroplane, takeout pen and paper Pencil, and paper and. I don't know anyone under forty could do that would know how to do that go onto a computer program undecided there. So you can see that the incorporation of technology into the academy through to the actual. Occupation. Than phones and things is is already a standard and they're in law. It isn't law. As you said, it's still very much a soft skill although I will argue that there is a difference between the way nor is viewed in different parts of the world. So in the United States A law is I think more tilted towards the sciences. So low in economics is one of the big things in the. US. So you got a lot of people working in the of lower economics who might go onto antitrust work no competition work and things like that which across a lot of economics, mathematics and Statistics and so on. In, say a Europe Australia and so on. Law is more allied towards the humanities. And the classics. So it doesn't have that kind of scientific underpinning in that way. So anything that's going to change in these parts if you like is going to be something that's going to be imported from outside. And is going to have a very dramatic impact when whether it does An and I think that's yet to happen. I don't think there's been sort of Cambrian explosion. If you like in in law, the will be one I'm sure but but law has an advantage over engineering economics or the other areas you might. That's With the nature of the rule of law and absent justice is since law as a a way of ordering society is absolutely crucial to everything else. Then, Law and lawyers will say will look you know we have a special status here is different amid leave engineer. We certainly want to make sure bridges stay up. We don't want down but we can design different kinds of bridges. We can design different kinds of legal bills, but they're also the fundamental rules If you want to you know if you're an engineering company and you want to build a bridge in a different country, you're going to have to do it on the basis of the legal rules, which will be just vise by the lawyers according to the country's there in so on. So in in that was what? I might put in a special category if you live. Yea. Yea. Let me let me push NBA John. So. The. The conference that you mentioned you know the Internet is under forty and engineers at. So so one could argue you know from an engineering perspective could argue e- It sexually dangerous. To not use machines to build aircraft the goes you know all the technology that cap today actually help us make the trap lot safer. granted. If you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and Pencil, you might get the principal right. But, but the technology has advanced so much that you really have to use. Technology to do so in some sense, engineering is pushed back. that. I argue this myself then they were naive engineering school. I had a V exposed at my daughter bent to school. She used the same physics book. Twenty, five. meter. I argue that that is sort of backward because data speed no need for an engineer to really learn Newtonian physics anymore because it is prescriptive, it's deterministic can make machines, learn it very quickly and so why spend all? Right. So so then you know if you think about the the law field. I wonder if there is a senior argument that is to say Dan and tape really good lawyer casts lot of intuitions dot expedients to crap something Contract or a discourse, but then maybe the machine scan actually do it even better We haven't really tested that hypothesis yet. Right be almost have this idea that humans are always dominant. Or machines but that the not be true as technology lancers. So what do you think about that in the in the? It's a very important point actually because the. American bosses. being modifying its ethical rules recently to say that lawyers have a duty and obligation to keep up to date with technology. So we already know the technology is now a an important part and I have to say when when I say the word technology, I mean this at all kinds of levels from what you can do with Microsoft word for example, it strays plug ins all the way up to artificial intelligence IBM, Watson, or something like that So that if if lawyers become. A. Uses of technology whether this small firms or big firms or what have you a under the Aba now they they actually have an obligation to make sure that they are up to date. They can't just say we didn't know what we were doing. So I think in that respect, there is a there was a move. The other move that is taking place is actually the push from from the clients. Now, this you have to look into ways one is with corporate clients. The corporation seen US lawyers have to use noise if you'd like want their work done. PHILOS- money on Chiba they wanted to more efficiently They don't want the best piece of work every time they want something that works and they want officiant. UTA A and so on. So it was interesting I think a few years ago. The General Counsel Cisco. Actually made a speech. Saying that he expected his. Lawyers Law firms who worked for the company to be reducing their fees year on year. Now, that's the opposite of what lawyers normally do, which is to raise them year on year. So say that that's one push which is. Very profound push now, coming from the client himselves who are using the beginning to use their procurement departments in in the companies and things like that to help purchase legal services the other aspects which is just as important in this is if you look at the role of lawyers and individuals. So if you is what access to to legal services, it's expensive lawyers are not cheap they charge our money We don't know how to judge the quality of their work and so on. because. There was a credence which we just know that So. On this is where technology can begin to step in and provide services which are. Efficient and often quite. what very well for the individual saying that this. Technology can be seen to be improving access to justice a Lotta people. Yeah. Yeah yes. I want to come back to this. John. I think this is a very important point. So bent on put has a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty maybe not not the right term, but it's called deterministic. It shows beatty ability and so the determination of quality it's not as easy as hard media India nearing or. Right business economics legal all sorts of well foreign that category and the application of technology sort of a different different meaning there but I want to touch on one of the things that you say in the paper, and that is you mentioned this before and that's about training training the next generation. So you savior regulating bodies professions are involved in the collection and reproduction of knowledge intended to be used by the entire body professionals, and so there was an expectation here that you know seeing it professionals. Is Providing the wisdom that knowledge mission to train the next generation now in a technology driven. regime. discuss vacations right. Our expert is going to be a computer engineer in the future. And so so how does that work from from cleaning and knowledge Asian will I think this is This is a crucial issue in it's one which the profession hasn't. Really. Got To grips with yet I think because you think of technology in terms of Predictive analytics a document review and things like this most law schools are not preparing students for this they may be a a a a causal to on some aspect of technology, but it's not something which lawyers themselves are learning. So I think what is going to happen is we're going to find a blending of skills occurring. So law firms will be sense having to bring in a range of technologists who perhaps have. A scales a straddle, both sides of the lines, the lawyers like this too I think I think we're going to find an avangard Who will begin to develop skills that allow them to talk to both sides of the line, the tech people and? Below people if you likes and there will be people who will acquire develop these skills as well but that's that's still some way down the line I didn't think we're anywhere near there yet, and part of the reason for that I think is that you know law is still a very highly regulated profession and and the regulators themselves are in the same situation they are unsure about what is going to happen and they also feel they have an obligation to. Not only ensure that. Customers clients and consumers are protected but in some ways, the profession is protected to if you like so. You know it's it's a it's a fine balancing. There I. Think. It's a fight balancing act and you'd say if the changing changing things. So going back, you know you care as an individual eighteen status of expert. Some form of encapsulation of knowledge and analysis occurs enabling professional experts, derived diagnoses, decisions, and conclusion wrapped late. and you make some distinctions. Type of learning that. Human? Beings. That the distinction between doing drive and become a gift and laster Yes yes. Yes I think that's important. So the the the the principle behind this is that Individuals can acquire a lot of knowledge in in various areas. So as I say learning how to drive a car, you learn how to change gear you though with the speeds. Braking different rates, conditions, and things like that. So. If you WANNA take that further and become a formula one drive or something like that. Then you have to undergo a very different kind of training and that kind of thing becomes a lot more collective rather than individual because you start to you're you're going to be in a group that is gonna be doing a particular kind of our driving. If you like everybody in the group has to understand what each other is doing that group, you can't have people going right a racetrack at two hundred miles an hour or thinking individually feel like they have to have a collective consciousness. About. How to drive in that situation? That's nothing like how? You and I might drive. I'm not saying we bad drivers just saying spreading very different. So I think professional work is not. That different from this in a way. So once you you can go through school and you can do your law degree and you can learn your low. We can learn you engineering's this applies to or professions really. But in order to become a professional in order to become somebody who can operate function within that. Group if you like you then have yourself have to develop collective consciousness and and one way of thinking about it is that we we can kind of tacit knowledge. This assorted knowledge you learn on the job from people, which is not always articulated in a precise formulate kind way but it's something you pick up from the way. Somebody does something you just recognize aw that that's how they've done that might not be. Written down anywhere or anything like that. But you know that's different from now exiting differently from the way that wise doing I think X.'s doing it better I and you and you just, and you can absorb that. That's what I mean by this kind of tacit knowledge and that comes about from the professional context. As how the professional context develops becomes absolutely crucial to how you introduce new ways of doing things new my daddy's new skills new outlooks if you like and I. Think this is where we're on the cost of of this beginning to develop I mean we we know it's got to be done quite how it's going to be done. is yet to be. So. So let me make a statement John and I want I want your reaction to it so eat in hard sciences eight years against again medicine. Expertise has about a consistent happy of remorse. Whereas enor- economics and business in general, let's say expertise is not about the ability to apply rules but to deal with. and at and if that is true, it has lot of implications rate. It has implications as to how we might divide work. Between. And machine in the future. And the skills that universities need to impart on on on new graduates are also quite different. So I always argued in the business. engineering contexts that universities having changed the dog they get mentioned before they're using the same. Using the same. Out Thirty four years without asking the question are those skills relevant, anymore or more importantly watch. Really relevant for a human being in the future rate. do you agree with that that expertise assert more about dealing exceptions apply? Putting it actually. I. I can see the logic behind what you. Saying I think what distinguishes? A good professional whether it's a good engineer good architect or good lawyer or doctor is is somebody who has a certain? This may sound strange but it's the. Imagination. Creativity. about. Kind of flare that allows them to function on the nausea they they've got and developed over the years and the experience. Gathered from Nova pitching what they'd be doing over the years and so on, and it allows them to see around things in ways which they perhaps would. I can give you an example if you like a law. So I'm in in Germany and some other countries. For example, there's a particular way of bundling together mortgage securities I I won't go to detail about this, but this statute that enables you do it. And then you can sell these securities and get money. In certain countries, the UK, the US, and so on. This, NICI. So in a sense to put this kind of a a deal together it. Couldn't be done if you live. So a bank came to one of the large English law firms and said, look we wanted we want to replicate this in in the UK, want to set a market this we're not the statues off there. What can you do and what was interesting was that the law firm then went back to first principles lawyers who were looking at this went back I suppose they looked at some vape basic areas of law matter your trust. And contract from what have you? I'm from that they constructed elite supplement that looked very much like the one in Germany, but without stat sheet and they tested it and it worked. Out To be credibly successful. So much so that the German government started German legal profession started to complain because they said. You can only do this by statute and these we find a way of doing it three. I suppose using law and there it is an they were vowed shops by but that was a particular example if you like of of what you were talking about, they took the exceptions they went back to first principles and said you know or How would we get? This is where we gotta get to, and this is a way right at the beginning what are the steps we need to take and and? And that's what a good loyal will do if you. Right right? Yeah. So that's very important point. So you in your paper dawn as the DREYFUSS and rice note that the proficient performer immersed in the world of skillful activities sees what needs to be done. But decides how to do it. So as we move into a and other technologies, I think it's important point it is. Right from Dad benefactor culture we have been using humans as you mentioned before in lots of with meted activities big not designed for humans I would I would contend enjoy doing things over and over again, and if you had thought of doing that, yeah, because they have to do it for living right and so so we should be moving to word It would where anything that is with pita on delegated to the machine at automation in the bottom of that and Appealed autonation you can have intelligent automation you can have you know reinforcement learning those types of things you have some aspects of intelligence into the into the two. And deploy humans Don't Miss. They're really good at in some case. I'm. So you know we've been studying the green for ages be our no close. It feels to understand mother. Heck it does You know it's not neat learning it. Oh, BBC of. thirty years ago as see that person again, you could see you could you could have a feeling. Then you've seen that before and and what the brain has done actually not only as he that pattern but also age that matter intuitively for thirty years and say, yes, that face I, guess before. and. So there are some superpowers the brain has reaped have been applying the all all. So for a technology might allow. Look I. Think Technology will allow us to incredibly complex things without having to think about too much I. Mean if you look at the way a port functions, for example, any major port these days they've got millions of containers and ships going through them all the time. So there's a lot of paper going through the you those charter parties, bills of lading guarantees. So the lot of legal work that's being done it, it's all quite standard stuff. I mean everybody. KNOWS, what needs to be done and so on. Now, some people are beginning to think while the best way to handle a port if you like I for everybody should know is to put everything that's going on in the poor into a blockchain so that you can see the whole supply chain. You see when something comes in, you can determine when the goods are being offloaded. When they're being shipped, you can stop making the payments as a result of the. Operation of the smart contracts if you like, and the whole thing would be just one quite seamless. In some ways without that much human intervention really just need oversight Some bits of coordination so on. But at the moment is still a a lot of humans are vote in that shipping people, law people, all sorts of things which is. I think insane. That's a waste of resources. We know that there are people who have all kinds of problems that require that creative flair she like as so why waste money on the routine stuff when you could develop skills to the the real need if you like in that way? Yeah Yeah. So I, want that some that bit that John Blockchain, for example, as you mentioned. So so one reason especially in the professions like law and business humans have an advantage justice dimension of trust. and you know at least our generation we don't really. At eighty level, right. So so having that. Human human touch is still extremely important for us. Now, technologies like Blockchain, for example, actually allows that trust to be tensely decoupled, right? Yeah, and I think I think you're right. Look I. Think I mean one of the reasons we make contracts is because We, don't trust each other. So we we devised these documents with all the conditions in them. Something goes wrong. This is what will happen things like that and so on. What are the interesting things? You know people really rely on contracts are met you. You draw up a contract. And the to business people stick him in the drawer I never look at again less something really really fundamental goes wrong but they know sumit doesn't that never look at that again. So you say value of the contract, what did it actually do if you look at some of the Asian countries say like Taiwan or parts of China, you have a assistant coach Guanxi, which is where people developed effective relationships by knowing each other over a period of time around business that allows them to develop trust it. So You know there are different ways of of handling trust, but we we seem to spend a lot of time on trying to minimize something You know which we don't really do a lot of if you like. So I think one of the advantages of of blockchain is that it just it removes a lot of this from from the equation if there's certain things you know that can happen. as a result off if this thing that systems. Lead happened And you know. As, long as you've got oversight and you can see what's going on than. You don't need to be too concerned about it. It will just do what it needs to do in that way and So. Again. That's still very much in the early stages, but we are seeing situations where supply chains A shipping goods from one country to another can actually be done under smart contracts through a blockchain. Technology if you live. That that is now happening I associate goodful dealing with things like gum counterfeiting if you're. Producing. Particular high-quality could site move our phones or particular pharmaceutical products and so on you know it's one way of guaranteeing the quality of the product is you couldn't I say look you can examine the whole supply chain or the data is there. And you know his Eq- code look at it and you get the whole thing going all the way back The. Again, issues around that if you're dealing with the digital. Is Much easier once you start dealing with physical products then you have. A question of how do you get that first initial digitization of the physical if you'd like to goes on so though some people I know here in Australia who? Run A company called Beef Ledger, which is trying to export beef straight beef to China using the blockchain supply chain, which will. Guarantee the security, and the quality of the goods to the Chinese consumer APP because having problems with this before. But I will tell you now do doing something like that does require that the people you are dealing with. You're going to set this up with You have to have a trusting relationship with you before you can set up a technology that will do away with the So we're still in that. That's really early days. I think another a lot of time way to go right Yeah, but the technology works it. Clean potential one could argue contracts exist because they probably known performance if you have a technology that drives that probably the of non-performance zero, then you can actually get rid of for contract. Yeah limit. It is. Not. Goes back to that earlier point I made that. Most most contracts are fairly standard. You know a routine things they're there to. Record a series of transactions payments that have gone on between people without the to do much. If you like you know once you you're you're doing the business, the contract just kind of records that in perpetuity. So the small contract just takes that into a different area and an an actually does the whole implementation and execution without people to be involved in that too much and there's something goes wrong. But if it if it all goes right then back it is done you need to you don't you think about it Right. Yeah. Hasn't been jumping to another are forthcoming people globalization law at. A time of crisis in the? Global Lawyer and so in the say Nikolai Condom Nieve a Russian economists in the nineteen thirties believed the worst economy operates long sixty year cycles Then he called K. Braves. And you safeguarding coronavirus analysis, the fifth psycho young's from nineteen eighty to twenty thirty. It's you save twenty, nineteen forthcoming John You might have. I think so I think say because I, tell you off the what's happening this year I thought my good I couldn't My God. I was just. Owners because you know a contract device these waves up into into what he calls four seasons spring summer or winter at, and we're in the winter off this fifth cycle if you like this is. All the bad stuff happens and he's news war. Famine Disease I think wait a minute that sounds Yes yes. That's exactly right. A. But one of the interesting things about contractors was that you know he he a because he's A. Solid economists are installing a dip executed. By the way you know he he got fed up ninety that was the end of Nikolai unfortunately but he. He said instead of know if you like the ownership of the means of production are being the determinate for changeover from system system, he said it's it's technology and and that the technology will drive you out of the downswing of the last cycle into the upswing of the new cycle, and and the way that works is the win. You're in this kind of winter period because of the kind of economic. Gloom pervades if you like people tend to hold back in subsurface vestment in terms of technological innovation of what have you and so a lot of energy resources, resources, money capital if you like builds up to a second point when people say we're GONNA go for this is this is it? And that's when if you like technology comes to the fall on, really drives it forward. So from that perspective, what he's saying is that you know come right about twenty thirty. If. Things are going slowly now regarding technology they're going to speed up. In. This period and that's when it will. You know really also take take off and people have looked back over our preceding cycles and they've you know it works if you like not just their. Fantasy theory there are also the people who do Cleo dynamics in history these the quantitative historians and they've done a similar kind of analysis of historical periods and said, yeah, you know there are all these citrical. Processes that take place even revolutions occur and big upset occurs and what have you and and. One of their Perspectives which I find quite interesting is that they say one of the reasons for revolutions come about is caused a lease beginning to compete with each other and and an an I look at say trump in in America and I look at the Democrats and I I I would say Modine, India I look she in China and different groups of elites who are engaged really profound struggle for the future of their countries if you live. Out which again is leading to this kind of potential eruption of activity and a new ways of doing things. Yeah. It makes a lot of intuitive sense gone. So one way to think about this also. There are a lot of excesses. So innovating go good their excesses in the system people to believe that invincible they changed assumptions about. because they don't see any. and. Financial markets to right. So these cycles and real real mass that uniquely talking about you can see the. Happening in the financial markets more clearly. But what he's saying is that he happens mortgage and you ask in this paper in two thousand, nineteen for in many ways go. Crystallization off the settling ketone economic forces lost throat ear Kublai doomed as populous. Separates nationalism and lead clients and I think they have that we have probably the answer to that. But you see I think. One of the points I was trying to make an in in this paper walls that Global Law. If you like is is, is the a kind of synthesis off chaos? How do we bring some kind of order to chaos now once you start seeing the undermining? Of his global institutions, you see trump was withdrawn from the W. H. O.. He's he's are criticized NATO he he won't have the do with the International, Criminal Court and so we've got this kind of real life tension now between a an international legal order that's being built up since the Second World War both Ekit economic and legal order is Global And so we can't just a radical globalization I mean even even with covert, we can't eradicate mobilize ation we've got to. Handle covert the Kobe pandemic on a global basis. Otherwise, we'll. We're lost it retreats to a national. Approach is not gonNA. Work? We'll be defeated in that race is going to be global. Might. Be One of my questions in in paper was will who are the people who are going to be doing this? Kind of bringing the the order to chaos if you like and that made argument that it's got to be the global lawyer. And this is a person who not only understand their national legal system but also able to communicate with lawyers and officials. From around the world if you like. To be able to develop a kind of common. Language common discourse that enables them to stop putting these things together are, and it's not just a simple massa of saying mathematically, it works this way or not. It requires the kind of pulling together of people, but it requires that sort of common understanding which. Comes out of what I was saying about this idea of testing knowledge you know as you got this kind of professional consciousness you know how people ought to behave and how they will interact with you, and then that enables you to be out of bizarre to predict how you can do things and so on and so on. That basis I think we can operate kind of global order. It had a a below the institutional level if you're not kind of private. As opposed to the public according and that will put three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah you know I the limit John I don't know if you think this way I limit one could as. Want to stay need for. Countries what does the need for legal system differentials? We set this up with the premise that it's easier to manage small chunks. one could also argue with Edmund Affect. -nology that you don't need to segment this debate that we have done. which might make these types of issues you know. See where you're coming from and I'm going to say yes or no? Yes, I think the home range of of questions that can be handled by the technology the ones we got pay I don't chain, etc. I don't I didn't see any issues there but there are a lot of decisions that needs to be made a book in terms of putting things together and resolve disputes that can only function at a human level because it's not. These are not decisions that are simple binary decisions. If you'd like, it's yes or no it's it's often a lot more nuance than complex about I mean, one of the resources in the World Kiva Zero System, the world amendment which is being fought over if you like is water, a water is probably one of the most valuable resources anywhere and it's you often find that rivers and things like that sort of flow between countries, they form borders. And and you are you know people if you look at the Nile, ESL start stopping in Sudan throwaway down to the Mediterranean. So he goes to countries all three countries, east European and then into Egypt's and so unwell well, who has the right to put it dime at a particular place and things like that all of that has to be cooled in act. You see a not going to be done at a human level that that's what caused the skills in negotiation judgment interpretation understanding if you like of the other people, no machine can do that I got. Yes before we conclude, I want to touch on one other thing So in the paper, you say as technology and culture intersect more and more. Ethical conundrums will intensify these raising questions about the rights and obligations of robots. And go beyond as moves. Three laws of robotics in two issues of rights of all moon. Algorithm, stem serves. So this is this is an area that be Kevin babies even even really form some notions allowed rights of all modes at rights of a are. Sai, gets more sophisticated. Yes. Yes. I do. I, mean I think this is one of the issues we already know some of the problems with algorithms and and you know can we can be are they transplanted from you see what's going on the ethical issues around the construction and implementation of algorithms and things like that. But I I I think looking into the future we all going to rely on things like robots. And various kinds of machines so much more so that if you look at a country like Japan, which is a a an aging population such that it doesn't have sufficient younger people to look after the people who need looking often. So machines, I'll be part of that, and that means people will stop forming real relationships with machines and and so that's when I would say. Okay. So let's think about how we View a potential rights of machine that we give. We give rise to humans. Yes. We know that we give rights to animals. Now we've also given rights to viz in forest in some countries as well as so machines I think our. Next logical step you know do we do we treat them with respect Let me give you one. Very classic example yet the production of. Robots for sex if you like is a major industry at the moment, some manufacturers say they want to program them say that people can act out rape fantasies will do we want that I? Mean you know should we be at first of all? You know? We should be having people behave in this particular kind of way, but even an uncertain if you do it against another human being, you'll be punished for it and you say we'll a machine is a piece of property you should be you should be doing that but I'm getting to think that maybe a machines should be treated with dignity say that we are treat ourselves with. Dixie. This a kind of reflexive situation here what we? Do to machines we do to each other, and they may again due to US depending on how they evolve and and move forward in that way is a very contentious issue. A lot of people would reject that right out of hand I agree I think we've got to stop thinking about stop dining forward because I. think we're going to at some point again. I. Don't know when. But at some point we will be having to deal with that. It's a it's a very important point. Joan. So if I understand you correctly, you know that the rights to animals the rights to inanimate. INANIMATE things like Lubers The recent those exist is because of its effects on humans and can see video a clear link in the future we would see a very clear link between a algorithms and robots ended affects on human. So this is not me You know each not fantasy in the sense that yeah, robots should have rights, but rather it's a more conceptual question. Any fraud did not have rights each going to cabin negative I I think that's absolutely true. I mean just to highlight that if you like this firm called Boston Dynamics that produces. Robots and they produced these videos of these. Now, these robots are resistant being pushed over and things like that, and it was quite interesting because a lot of people say all you can't treat them in this way. This is awful and so what I mean that that's the answer for more fighting to to the extreme extent. But it I think you know on the basis what you're saying, you know how we Oakland. Hold human beings accountable to each other in an increasingly complex world machines have become part of that. We can't just have them all sitting on the edge as though they're not part of who we are, what we are and how we do things. Right. So. Incursion Johnny fuel sort of look forward five years. At. The intersection of law and technology. But you think people see sort of the biggest. I. Think you'll see it two wins. On the you know for the individual The individual, you're going to see a lot of them just interacting. With artificial Tennessee, say lost questions about what my rights for this how do I deal with a tendency agreement? How do I complain against a producer company or something like that or that's going to be automated? is fairly straightforward to do and and it will only need A. Minimal. Amount of human inside of. An intervention if you like. At the other end at the. In I think we're GONNA see more and more technology coming in because as those basic functions that are. Being, carried out by junior people or or paralegals or things like that are the ones which are going to be increasing, automating creasing. I'm. We will replace the humans and just let machines do that because there's no point in wasting human resources on that whether that means we need fuel or more lawyers That's an open question I think it will that we need different kinds of lawyers We will need Roy Moore to logically aware much more sophisticated. They don't it's be programmers or odors or anything like that, but they need to have a quite a a a a strong understanding and gross what's going on in technology in that way if you like so. Yeah. We can definitely see an. Yeah, so I, think you mentioned the so from a structure perspective in all forum DC law firm sprucing to word. It a group of equity partners. Around it by machine so to speak well, I. Think. I was in that paper or another one I. I'm S-. Forecast. Law. Firms. Being. Distributed decentralized we'll tournaments organizations running on a blockchain with with the various people. into setting when they will no I. Think the law firm is still a very strong and powerful is Shutian, that's not gonNA disappear straight away. But certainly the numbers of partners who control things will shrink. They'll that will get smarter as proportion and yes, they will be surrounded by machines and they surrounded by people who are servicing those machines. Your excellent. Yeah. Thanks for doing this weekend. John really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much. It's been great fun and very

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

Scientific Sense

59:58 min | 3 months ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

"Welcome to the site of accents podcast. Where we explore emerging ideas from signs, policy economics, and technology. My name is Gill eappen. We talk with woods, leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest. Scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation. Be Color a wide variety of domains red new discoveries are made. and New Technologies are developed on a daily basis. The most interested in how new ideas affect society. And help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation. V seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations bit researchers and leaders who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot. com. And displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics, guests at other ideas. Please send up to info at scientific sense. Dot Com. And I can be reached at Gil at eappen. Dot Info. My guests today's facade John. WHO's professor of Law and society at Griffith University in Brisbane Australia. He's also adjunct professor of law at Queensland University of Technology and Research Associated University College Under Center for Blockchain Technologies, he who suggests on the Bloomberg professional globalization of law and the technology in law. But come John. Hello. Thank you. Sure. Yeah. So I want to start with one of your recent people, professions and expertise hog machine learning, and blockchain redesigning the landscape of professional knowledge and organization. In invite you say machine learning has entered the world of the professions. The different impacts automation will have huge impacts on the nature of work and society. Engineering architecture and medicine or early and enthusiastic adopters. Other professions especially law at late you say at in some cases with leptons adopters. could you talk about you know sort of the landscape all? Of Law, profession and. They today in terms of opting these technologies. Certainly Louis interesting because it's a very old profession is. Often considered one of the. Original traditional professions along with medicine and the church. And in a sense law has used different kinds of technology might say I mean does it? Based around writing. And then the printing press and So on yet that. It's always being based on a craft. A skill which the individual person is that enables them to do, whatever is quote if you like and. said, there's never been a lot of room for any kind of automation. Certainly, the has been space for using. A people who are not fully qualified as low as about as paralegals, people like that, who will do a lot of repetitive work document checking and things like that and so on. But what will get into now is the situation where automation through machine learning. There's other kinds of artificial intelligence. is able to start constructing documents example contracts. Check dollop a documents for particular clauses and things like that mature they're up to date and this incense is. Replacing now, the kind of work that noise will do. So I think in some ways more more of of the profession of law is gonNA be subject to automation, but distinction I would many because I think it's quite important here is that A lot of what lawyers do. Is actually quite. Active that that that that the drafting contracts overtime or or they're reviewing documents to some sort or another or they're getting through particular. Negotiation. And so you know a lot of it is the same, but they build up the expertise through doing these same kinds of were over and over again and What we're now finding is that instead of having young lawyers coming in and doing what you might call the grunt work of checking documents and going through discovery applications where he goes through the size boxes of evidence to decide. which are the appropriate documents you want the emails, the invoices order, this sort of stuff that is the kind of work which is lending itself to automation. And, and so that his taking away a lot of the work which is used for trading purposes with young lawyers and is just doing it much quicker. will quickly I mean More efficiently in many ways and probably expensive much much expensive a Lotta. This work is being outsourced to you know legal process outsourcing India or Philippines South Africa places like that. So yeah, that's that's right and so in some ways, the group of lawyers who do the work which requires the skill, the judgment. Is Reducing in some ways. That pool is getting smaller. Yeah Yeah it's it's interesting. The the distinction that you make between automation. And in my job and let's call it decision making right which is you know a lot of work in the business side of this. So for example. in the nineties in large pharmaceutical company So you think about you know rnd. People might think it has really complex selection of programs that design of them, portfolio management, risk management, all those decisions. Genuine companies be say well, senior managers with lots of experience and intuition make those decisions really well right and so that's statement would automatically implied that machines can really do much there. But what we find in the mid nineties says that is systematic analysis of data make those decisions. Don't better. Actually, I've Tom to humans humans. Always seem to make decisions. These are typically bonding the decision. So if you go back and look at it, alternative experiment has not been wrong. So we have no date to say it was a good decision at typically. So human scaffold, fifty percents of making good decisions So do you know just throwing a coin or letting monkey make those decisions so? Yup We found that even complex decision making that humans hold. you know close to their you know kind of domain I'm not necessarily. So we have machines That could do that much better than I. Don't know there's an analog of that in in law I I. Think The may be actually I mean Two three years ago the royal. Society in England decided to arrange a working party on machine learning. One of the things that they put together a a roundtable on machine learning professions resolved to talk about that night and I talked about the history of professions in technology and. and. I think one of the peculiar things that came out to in relation to law is that law. Has always been a sort of on its own. If you think about medicine, for example, medicines always had the teacher hospital institution that sort of straddles the academic quilt and the practice walls and brings those people together and as a result. INCORPORATES loss of, scientific, work. Engineering work as well computing work and things like that. And that's been the first teaching hospital king into existence in in the French revolution in Seventeen eighty-nine. A long history of that. If you look at law, there was nothing equivalent to that whatsoever and there is in fact, actually a big gap between what academy does on what the practitioners in your do so that As a result as before law has come to this a quite late but what we are. Finding I think is that Certainly the management consultancy finding is that because of the nature of a lot of what goes on in legal office a remarkable amount of it can be automated. So what we are getting now is companies setting themselves up to do this automated work. So. We have companies which do nothing but contract our instruction formation sort of company. The typical lawyer would would say to a client Do you WANNA contract classes. Yes I want this for this. And loyal galway draft contract back with it, and then in the con- comes back against as I need another contract, you go through the same process. which is good for the lawyer but not necessarily good kind. What we're finding now is the company's not can think of a few of them that will, in fact, go into the company's show order contracts. Let's see the entire. Corpus of contracts you've got there and they will analyze them. And basically say, all right. We can create a new contract in automated way fairly easily it may need some modification according to special circumstances but on the whole, it's fairly standard and and they can do that INNOVA systematic world meaning the contracts are reviewed that checked. If they're going to expire marketing, you want an unable just the system will cope with that if you're. Yeah. So yeah. No No. No so I was just going to say yes. So that the distinction you make, you know in terms education sort of systematic graduate level education that because as you say, it is low in one sense of soft proficient. You say in called professions like made it to text reengineering this team has a strong concern ensuring that expertise applied in the public interest when as low little bit different from from bad and economics in some sense sort of in the same same vein we have now made economics at really odd. of mathematics you know north of analytics there. Whether they are actually useful from policy making perspective is left to debate but at least it has been an attempt to make this make economic video hard. So so I don't know A. Fascination has been in in law I very much that will happen in law. Oh there things are beginning to happen I mean let me just boob. At. One example I learned in that workshop that I mentioned the Royal Society held. With somebody from the engineering profession talking about. The difference in skills between people who above forty I'm below forty he said. If he he was about Forty Years Austin design an aeroplane, takeout pen and paper Pencil, and paper and. I don't know anyone under forty could do that would know how to do that go onto a computer program undecided there. So you can see that the incorporation of technology into the academy through to the actual. Occupation. Than phones and things is is already a standard and they're in law. It isn't law. As you said, it's still very much a soft skill although I will argue that there is a difference between the way nor is viewed in different parts of the world. So in the United States A law is I think more tilted towards the sciences. So low in economics is one of the big things in the. US. So you got a lot of people working in the of lower economics who might go onto antitrust work no competition work and things like that which across a lot of economics, mathematics and Statistics and so on. In, say a Europe Australia and so on. Law is more allied towards the humanities. And the classics. So it doesn't have that kind of scientific underpinning in that way. So anything that's going to change in these parts if you like is going to be something that's going to be imported from outside. And is going to have a very dramatic impact when whether it does An and I think that's yet to happen. I don't think there's been sort of Cambrian explosion. If you like in in law, the will be one I'm sure but but law has an advantage over engineering economics or the other areas you might. That's With the nature of the rule of law and absent justice is since law as a a way of ordering society is absolutely crucial to everything else. Then, Law and lawyers will say will look you know we have a special status here is different amid leave engineer. We certainly want to make sure bridges stay up. We don't want down but we can design different kinds of bridges. We can design different kinds of legal bills, but they're also the fundamental rules If you want to you know if you're an engineering company and you want to build a bridge in a different country, you're going to have to do it on the basis of the legal rules, which will be just vise by the lawyers according to the country's there in so on. So in in that was what? I might put in a special category if you live. Yea. Yea. Let me let me push NBA John. So. The. The conference that you mentioned you know the Internet is under forty and engineers at. So so one could argue you know from an engineering perspective could argue e- It sexually dangerous. To not use machines to build aircraft the goes you know all the technology that cap today actually help us make the trap lot safer. granted. If you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and Pencil, you might get the principal right. But, but the technology has advanced so much that you really have to use. Technology to do so in some sense, engineering is pushed back. that. I argue this myself then they were naive engineering school. I had a V exposed at my daughter bent to school. She used the same physics book. Twenty, five. meter. I argue that that is sort of backward because data speed no need for an engineer to really learn Newtonian physics anymore because it is prescriptive, it's deterministic can make machines, learn it very quickly and so why spend all? Right. So so then you know if you think about the the law field. I wonder if there is a senior argument that is to say Dan and tape really good lawyer casts lot of intuitions dot expedients to crap something Contract or a discourse, but then maybe the machine scan actually do it even better We haven't really tested that hypothesis yet. Right be almost have this idea that humans are always dominant. Or machines but that the not be true as technology lancers. So what do you think about that in the in the? It's a very important point actually because the. American bosses. being modifying its ethical rules recently to say that lawyers have a duty and obligation to keep up to date with technology. So we already know the technology is now a an important part and I have to say when when I say the word technology, I mean this at all kinds of levels from what you can do with Microsoft word for example, it strays plug ins all the way up to artificial intelligence IBM, Watson, or something like that So that if if lawyers become. A. Uses of technology whether this small firms or big firms or what have you a under the Aba now they they actually have an obligation to make sure that they are up to date. They can't just say we didn't know what we were doing. So I think in that respect, there is a there was a move. The other move that is taking place is actually the push from from the clients. Now, this you have to look into ways one is with corporate clients. The corporation seen US lawyers have to use noise if you'd like want their work done. PHILOS- money on Chiba they wanted to more efficiently They don't want the best piece of work every time they want something that works and they want officiant. UTA A and so on. So it was interesting I think a few years ago. The General Counsel Cisco. Actually made a speech. Saying that he expected his. Lawyers Law firms who worked for the company to be reducing their fees year on year. Now, that's the opposite of what lawyers normally do, which is to raise them year on year. So say that that's one push which is. Very profound push now, coming from the client himselves who are using the beginning to use their procurement departments in in the companies and things like that to help purchase legal services the other aspects which is just as important in this is if you look at the role of lawyers and individuals. So if you is what access to to legal services, it's expensive lawyers are not cheap they charge our money We don't know how to judge the quality of their work and so on. because. There was a credence which we just know that So. On this is where technology can begin to step in and provide services which are. Efficient and often quite. what very well for the individual saying that this. Technology can be seen to be improving access to justice a Lotta people. Yeah. Yeah yes. I want to come back to this. John. I think this is a very important point. So bent on put has a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty maybe not not the right term, but it's called deterministic. It shows beatty ability and so the determination of quality it's not as easy as hard media India nearing or. Right business economics legal all sorts of well foreign that category and the application of technology sort of a different different meaning there but I want to touch on one of the things that you say in the paper, and that is you mentioned this before and that's about training training the next generation. So you savior regulating bodies professions are involved in the collection and reproduction of knowledge intended to be used by the entire body professionals, and so there was an expectation here that you know seeing it professionals. Is Providing the wisdom that knowledge mission to train the next generation now in a technology driven. regime. discuss vacations right. Our expert is going to be a computer engineer in the future. And so so how does that work from from cleaning and knowledge Asian will I think this is This is a crucial issue in it's one which the profession hasn't. Really. Got To grips with yet I think because you think of technology in terms of Predictive analytics a document review and things like this most law schools are not preparing students for this they may be a a a a causal to on some aspect of technology, but it's not something which lawyers themselves are learning. So I think what is going to happen is we're going to find a blending of skills occurring. So law firms will be sense having to bring in a range of technologists who perhaps have. A scales a straddle, both sides of the lines, the lawyers like this too I think I think we're going to find an avangard Who will begin to develop skills that allow them to talk to both sides of the line, the tech people and? Below people if you likes and there will be people who will acquire develop these skills as well but that's that's still some way down the line I didn't think we're anywhere near there yet, and part of the reason for that I think is that you know law is still a very highly regulated profession and and the regulators themselves are in the same situation they are unsure about what is going to happen and they also feel they have an obligation to. Not only ensure that. Customers clients and consumers are protected but in some ways, the profession is protected to if you like so. You know it's it's a it's a fine balancing. There I. Think. It's a fight balancing act and you'd say if the changing changing things. So going back, you know you care as an individual eighteen status of expert. Some form of encapsulation of knowledge and analysis occurs enabling professional experts, derived diagnoses, decisions, and conclusion wrapped late. and you make some distinctions. Type of learning that. Human? Beings. That the distinction between doing drive and become a gift and laster Yes yes. Yes I think that's important. So the the the the principle behind this is that Individuals can acquire a lot of knowledge in in various areas. So as I say learning how to drive a car, you learn how to change gear you though with the speeds. Braking different rates, conditions, and things like that. So. If you WANNA take that further and become a formula one drive or something like that. Then you have to undergo a very different kind of training and that kind of thing becomes a lot more collective rather than individual because you start to you're you're going to be in a group that is gonna be doing a particular kind of our driving. If you like everybody in the group has to understand what each other is doing that group, you can't have people going right a racetrack at two hundred miles an hour or thinking individually feel like they have to have a collective consciousness. About. How to drive in that situation? That's nothing like how? You and I might drive. I'm not saying we bad drivers just saying spreading very different. So I think professional work is not. That different from this in a way. So once you you can go through school and you can do your law degree and you can learn your low. We can learn you engineering's this applies to or professions really. But in order to become a professional in order to become somebody who can operate function within that. Group if you like you then have yourself have to develop collective consciousness and and one way of thinking about it is that we we can kind of tacit knowledge. This assorted knowledge you learn on the job from people, which is not always articulated in a precise formulate kind way but it's something you pick up from the way. Somebody does something you just recognize aw that that's how they've done that might not be. Written down anywhere or anything like that. But you know that's different from now exiting differently from the way that wise doing I think X.'s doing it better I and you and you just, and you can absorb that. That's what I mean by this kind of tacit knowledge and that comes about from the professional context. As how the professional context develops becomes absolutely crucial to how you introduce new ways of doing things new my daddy's new skills new outlooks if you like and I. Think this is where we're on the cost of of this beginning to develop I mean we we know it's got to be done quite how it's going to be done. is yet to be. So. So let me make a statement John and I want I want your reaction to it so eat in hard sciences eight years against again medicine. Expertise has about a consistent happy of remorse. Whereas enor- economics and business in general, let's say expertise is not about the ability to apply rules but to deal with. and at and if that is true, it has lot of implications rate. It has implications as to how we might divide work. Between. And machine in the future. And the skills that universities need to impart on on on new graduates are also quite different. So I always argued in the business. engineering contexts that universities having changed the dog they get mentioned before they're using the same. Using the same. Out Thirty four years without asking the question are those skills relevant, anymore or more importantly watch. Really relevant for a human being in the future rate. do you agree with that that expertise assert more about dealing exceptions apply? Putting it actually. I. I can see the logic behind what you. Saying I think what distinguishes? A good professional whether it's a good engineer good architect or good lawyer or doctor is is somebody who has a certain? This may sound strange but it's the. Imagination. Creativity. about. Kind of flare that allows them to function on the nausea they they've got and developed over the years and the experience. Gathered from Nova pitching what they'd be doing over the years and so on, and it allows them to see around things in ways which they perhaps would. I can give you an example if you like a law. So I'm in in Germany and some other countries. For example, there's a particular way of bundling together mortgage securities I I won't go to detail about this, but this statute that enables you do it. And then you can sell these securities and get money. In certain countries, the UK, the US, and so on. This, NICI. So in a sense to put this kind of a a deal together it. Couldn't be done if you live. So a bank came to one of the large English law firms and said, look we wanted we want to replicate this in in the UK, want to set a market this we're not the statues off there. What can you do and what was interesting was that the law firm then went back to first principles lawyers who were looking at this went back I suppose they looked at some vape basic areas of law matter your trust. And contract from what have you? I'm from that they constructed elite supplement that looked very much like the one in Germany, but without stat sheet and they tested it and it worked. Out To be credibly successful. So much so that the German government started German legal profession started to complain because they said. You can only do this by statute and these we find a way of doing it three. I suppose using law and there it is an they were vowed shops by but that was a particular example if you like of of what you were talking about, they took the exceptions they went back to first principles and said you know or How would we get? This is where we gotta get to, and this is a way right at the beginning what are the steps we need to take and and? And that's what a good loyal will do if you. Right right? Yeah. So that's very important point. So you in your paper dawn as the DREYFUSS and rice note that the proficient performer immersed in the world of skillful activities sees what needs to be done. But decides how to do it. So as we move into a and other technologies, I think it's important point it is. Right from Dad benefactor culture we have been using humans as you mentioned before in lots of with meted activities big not designed for humans I would I would contend enjoy doing things over and over again, and if you had thought of doing that, yeah, because they have to do it for living right and so so we should be moving to word It would where anything that is with pita on delegated to the machine at automation in the bottom of that and Appealed autonation you can have intelligent automation you can have you know reinforcement learning those types of things you have some aspects of intelligence into the into the two. And deploy humans Don't Miss. They're really good at in some case. I'm. So you know we've been studying the green for ages be our no close. It feels to understand mother. Heck it does You know it's not neat learning it. Oh, BBC of. thirty years ago as see that person again, you could see you could you could have a feeling. Then you've seen that before and and what the brain has done actually not only as he that pattern but also age that matter intuitively for thirty years and say, yes, that face I, guess before. and. So there are some superpowers the brain has reaped have been applying the all all. So for a technology might allow. Look I. Think Technology will allow us to incredibly complex things without having to think about too much I. Mean if you look at the way a port functions, for example, any major port these days they've got millions of containers and ships going through them all the time. So there's a lot of paper going through the you those charter parties, bills of lading guarantees. So the lot of legal work that's being done it, it's all quite standard stuff. I mean everybody. KNOWS, what needs to be done and so on. Now, some people are beginning to think while the best way to handle a port if you like I for everybody should know is to put everything that's going on in the poor into a blockchain so that you can see the whole supply chain. You see when something comes in, you can determine when the goods are being offloaded. When they're being shipped, you can stop making the payments as a result of the. Operation of the smart contracts if you like, and the whole thing would be just one quite seamless. In some ways without that much human intervention really just need oversight Some bits of coordination so on. But at the moment is still a a lot of humans are vote in that shipping people, law people, all sorts of things which is. I think insane. That's a waste of resources. We know that there are people who have all kinds of problems that require that creative flair she like as so why waste money on the routine stuff when you could develop skills to the the real need if you like in that way? Yeah Yeah. So I, want that some that bit that John Blockchain, for example, as you mentioned. So so one reason especially in the professions like law and business humans have an advantage justice dimension of trust. and you know at least our generation we don't really. At eighty level, right. So so having that. Human human touch is still extremely important for us. Now, technologies like Blockchain, for example, actually allows that trust to be tensely decoupled, right? Yeah, and I think I think you're right. Look I. Think I mean one of the reasons we make contracts is because We, don't trust each other. So we we devised these documents with all the conditions in them. Something goes wrong. This is what will happen things like that and so on. What are the interesting things? You know people really rely on contracts are met you. You draw up a contract. And the to business people stick him in the drawer I never look at again less something really really fundamental goes wrong but they know sumit doesn't that never look at that again. So you say value of the contract, what did it actually do if you look at some of the Asian countries say like Taiwan or parts of China, you have a assistant coach Guanxi, which is where people developed effective relationships by knowing each other over a period of time around business that allows them to develop trust it. So You know there are different ways of of handling trust, but we we seem to spend a lot of time on trying to minimize something You know which we don't really do a lot of if you like. So I think one of the advantages of of blockchain is that it just it removes a lot of this from from the equation if there's certain things you know that can happen. as a result off if this thing that systems. Lead happened And you know. As, long as you've got oversight and you can see what's going on than. You don't need to be too concerned about it. It will just do what it needs to do in that way and So. Again. That's still very much in the early stages, but we are seeing situations where supply chains A shipping goods from one country to another can actually be done under smart contracts through a blockchain. Technology if you live. That that is now happening I associate goodful dealing with things like gum counterfeiting if you're. Producing. Particular high-quality could site move our phones or particular pharmaceutical products and so on you know it's one way of guaranteeing the quality of the product is you couldn't I say look you can examine the whole supply chain or the data is there. And you know his Eq- code look at it and you get the whole thing going all the way back The. Again, issues around that if you're dealing with the digital. Is Much easier once you start dealing with physical products then you have. A question of how do you get that first initial digitization of the physical if you'd like to goes on so though some people I know here in Australia who? Run A company called Beef Ledger, which is trying to export beef straight beef to China using the blockchain supply chain, which will. Guarantee the security, and the quality of the goods to the Chinese consumer APP because having problems with this before. But I will tell you now do doing something like that does require that the people you are dealing with. You're going to set this up with You have to have a trusting relationship with you before you can set up a technology that will do away with the So we're still in that. That's really early days. I think another a lot of time way to go right Yeah, but the technology works it. Clean potential one could argue contracts exist because they probably known performance if you have a technology that drives that probably the of non-performance zero, then you can actually get rid of for contract. Yeah limit. It is. Not. Goes back to that earlier point I made that. Most most contracts are fairly standard. You know a routine things they're there to. Record a series of transactions payments that have gone on between people without the to do much. If you like you know once you you're you're doing the business, the contract just kind of records that in perpetuity. So the small contract just takes that into a different area and an an actually does the whole implementation and execution without people to be involved in that too much and there's something goes wrong. But if it if it all goes right then back it is done you need to you don't you think about it Right. Yeah. Hasn't been jumping to another are forthcoming people globalization law at. A time of crisis in the? Global Lawyer and so in the say Nikolai Condom Nieve a Russian economists in the nineteen thirties believed the worst economy operates long sixty year cycles Then he called K. Braves. And you safeguarding coronavirus analysis, the fifth psycho young's from nineteen eighty to twenty thirty. It's you save twenty, nineteen forthcoming John You might have. I think so I think say because I, tell you off the what's happening this year I thought my good I couldn't My God. I was just. Owners because you know a contract device these waves up into into what he calls four seasons spring summer or winter at, and we're in the winter off this fifth cycle if you like this is. All the bad stuff happens and he's news war. Famine Disease I think wait a minute that sounds Yes yes. That's exactly right. A. But one of the interesting things about contractors was that you know he he a because he's A. Solid economists are installing a dip executed. By the way you know he he got fed up ninety that was the end of Nikolai unfortunately but he. He said instead of know if you like the ownership of the means of production are being the determinate for changeover from system system, he said it's it's technology and and that the technology will drive you out of the downswing of the last cycle into the upswing of the new cycle, and and the way that works is the win. You're in this kind of winter period because of the kind of economic. Gloom pervades if you like people tend to hold back in subsurface vestment in terms of technological innovation of what have you and so a lot of energy resources, resources, money capital if you like builds up to a second point when people say we're GONNA go for this is this is it? And that's when if you like technology comes to the fall on, really drives it forward. So from that perspective, what he's saying is that you know come right about twenty thirty. If. Things are going slowly now regarding technology they're going to speed up. In. This period and that's when it will. You know really also take take off and people have looked back over our preceding cycles and they've you know it works if you like not just their. Fantasy theory there are also the people who do Cleo dynamics in history these the quantitative historians and they've done a similar kind of analysis of historical periods and said, yeah, you know there are all these citrical. Processes that take place even revolutions occur and big upset occurs and what have you and and. One of their Perspectives which I find quite interesting is that they say one of the reasons for revolutions come about is caused a lease beginning to compete with each other and and an an I look at say trump in in America and I look at the Democrats and I I I would say Modine, India I look she in China and different groups of elites who are engaged really profound struggle for the future of their countries if you live. Out which again is leading to this kind of potential eruption of activity and a new ways of doing things. Yeah. It makes a lot of intuitive sense gone. So one way to think about this also. There are a lot of excesses. So innovating go good their excesses in the system people to believe that invincible they changed assumptions about. because they don't see any. and. Financial markets to right. So these cycles and real real mass that uniquely talking about you can see the. Happening in the financial markets more clearly. But what he's saying is that he happens mortgage and you ask in this paper in two thousand, nineteen for in many ways go. Crystallization off the settling ketone economic forces lost throat ear Kublai doomed as populous. Separates nationalism and lead clients and I think they have that we have probably the answer to that. But you see I think. One of the points I was trying to make an in in this paper walls that Global Law. If you like is is, is the a kind of synthesis off chaos? How do we bring some kind of order to chaos now once you start seeing the undermining? Of his global institutions, you see trump was withdrawn from the W. H. O.. He's he's are criticized NATO he he won't have the do with the International, Criminal Court and so we've got this kind of real life tension now between a an international legal order that's being built up since the Second World War both Ekit economic and legal order is Global And so we can't just a radical globalization I mean even even with covert, we can't eradicate mobilize ation we've got to. Handle covert the Kobe pandemic on a global basis. Otherwise, we'll. We're lost it retreats to a national. Approach is not gonNA. Work? We'll be defeated in that race is going to be global. Might. Be One of my questions in in paper was will who are the people who are going to be doing this? Kind of bringing the the order to chaos if you like and that made argument that it's got to be the global lawyer. And this is a person who not only understand their national legal system but also able to communicate with lawyers and officials. From around the world if you like. To be able to develop a kind of common. Language common discourse that enables them to stop putting these things together are, and it's not just a simple massa of saying mathematically, it works this way or not. It requires the kind of pulling together of people, but it requires that sort of common understanding which. Comes out of what I was saying about this idea of testing knowledge you know as you got this kind of professional consciousness you know how people ought to behave and how they will interact with you, and then that enables you to be out of bizarre to predict how you can do things and so on and so on. That basis I think we can operate kind of global order. It had a a below the institutional level if you're not kind of private. As opposed to the public according and that will put three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah you know I the limit John I don't know if you think this way I limit one could as. Want to stay need for. Countries what does the need for legal system differentials? We set this up with the premise that it's easier to manage small chunks. one could also argue with Edmund Affect. -nology that you don't need to segment this debate that we have done. which might make these types of issues you know. See where you're coming from and I'm going to say yes or no? Yes, I think the home range of of questions that can be handled by the technology the ones we got pay I don't chain, etc. I don't I didn't see any issues there but there are a lot of decisions that needs to be made a book in terms of putting things together and resolve disputes that can only function at a human level because it's not. These are not decisions that are simple binary decisions. If you'd like, it's yes or no it's it's often a lot more nuance than complex about I mean, one of the resources in the World Kiva Zero System, the world amendment which is being fought over if you like is water, a water is probably one of the most valuable resources anywhere and it's you often find that rivers and things like that sort of flow between countries, they form borders. And and you are you know people if you look at the Nile, ESL start stopping in Sudan throwaway down to the Mediterranean. So he goes to countries all three countries, east European and then into Egypt's and so unwell well, who has the right to put it dime at a particular place and things like that all of that has to be cooled in act. You see a not going to be done at a human level that that's what caused the skills in negotiation judgment interpretation understanding if you like of the other people, no machine can do that I got. Yes before we conclude, I want to touch on one other thing So in the paper, you say as technology and culture intersect more and more. Ethical conundrums will intensify these raising questions about the rights and obligations of robots. And go beyond as moves. Three laws of robotics in two issues of rights of all moon. Algorithm, stem serves. So this is this is an area that be Kevin babies even even really form some notions allowed rights of all modes at rights of a are. Sai, gets more sophisticated. Yes. Yes. I do. I, mean I think this is one of the issues we already know some of the problems with algorithms and and you know can we can be are they transplanted from you see what's going on the ethical issues around the construction and implementation of algorithms and things like that. But I I I think looking into the future we all going to rely on things like robots. And various kinds of machines so much more so that if you look at a country like Japan, which is a a an aging population such that it doesn't have sufficient younger people to look after the people who need looking often. So machines, I'll be part of that, and that means people will stop forming real relationships with machines and and so that's when I would say. Okay. So let's think about how we View a potential rights of machine that we give. We give rise to humans. Yes. We know that we give rights to animals. Now we've also given rights to viz in forest in some countries as well as so machines I think our. Next logical step you know do we do we treat them with respect Let me give you one. Very classic example yet the production of. Robots for sex if you like is a major industry at the moment, some manufacturers say they want to program them say that people can act out rape fantasies will do we want that I? Mean you know should we be at first of all? You know? We should be having people behave in this particular kind of way, but even an uncertain if you do it against another human being, you'll be punished for it and you say we'll a machine is a piece of property you should be you should be doing that but I'm getting to think that maybe a machines should be treated with dignity say that we are treat ourselves with. Dixie. This a kind of reflexive situation here what we? Do to machines we do to each other, and they may again due to US depending on how they evolve and and move forward in that way is a very contentious issue. A lot of people would reject that right out of hand I agree I think we've got to stop thinking about stop dining forward because I. think we're going to at some point again. I. Don't know when. But at some point we will be having to deal with that. It's a it's a very important point. Joan. So if I understand you correctly, you know that the rights to animals the rights to inanimate. INANIMATE things like Lubers The recent those exist is because of its effects on humans and can see video a clear link in the future we would see a very clear link between a algorithms and robots ended affects on human. So this is not me You know each not fantasy in the sense that yeah, robots should have rights, but rather it's a more conceptual question. Any fraud did not have rights each going to cabin negative I I think that's absolutely true. I mean just to highlight that if you like this firm called Boston Dynamics that produces. Robots and they produced these videos of these. Now, these robots are resistant being pushed over and things like that, and it was quite interesting because a lot of people say all you can't treat them in this way. This is awful and so what I mean that that's the answer for more fighting to to the extreme extent. But it I think you know on the basis what you're saying, you know how we Oakland. Hold human beings accountable to each other in an increasingly complex world machines have become part of that. We can't just have them all sitting on the edge as though they're not part of who we are, what we are and how we do things. Right. So. Incursion Johnny fuel sort of look forward five years. At. The intersection of law and technology. But you think people see sort of the biggest. I. Think you'll see it two wins. On the you know for the individual The individual, you're going to see a lot of them just interacting. With artificial Tennessee, say lost questions about what my rights for this how do I deal with a tendency agreement? How do I complain against a producer company or something like that or that's going to be automated? is fairly straightforward to do and and it will only need A. Minimal. Amount of human inside of. An intervention if you like. At the other end at the. In I think we're GONNA see more and more technology coming in because as those basic functions that are. Being, carried out by junior people or or paralegals or things like that are the ones which are going to be increasing, automating creasing. I'm. We will replace the humans and just let machines do that because there's no point in wasting human resources on that whether that means we need fuel or more lawyers That's an open question I think it will that we need different kinds of lawyers We will need Roy Moore to logically aware much more sophisticated. They don't it's be programmers or odors or anything like that, but they need to have a quite a a a a strong understanding and gross what's going on in technology in that way if you like so. Yeah. We can definitely see an. Yeah, so I, think you mentioned the so from a structure perspective in all forum DC law firm sprucing to word. It a group of equity partners. Around it by machine so to speak well, I. Think. I was in that paper or another one I. I'm S-. Forecast. Law. Firms. Being. Distributed decentralized we'll tournaments organizations running on a blockchain with with the various people. into setting when they will no I. Think the law firm is still a very strong and powerful is Shutian, that's not gonNA disappear straight away. But certainly the numbers of partners who control things will shrink. They'll that will get smarter as proportion and yes, they will be surrounded by machines and they surrounded by people who are servicing those machines. Your excellent. Yeah. Thanks for doing this weekend. John really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much. It's been great fun and very

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

Scientific Sense

59:58 min | 3 months ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

"Welcome to the site of accents podcast. Where we explore emerging ideas from signs, policy economics, and technology. My name is Gill eappen. We talk with woods, leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest. Scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation. Be Color a wide variety of domains red new discoveries are made. and New Technologies are developed on a daily basis. The most interested in how new ideas affect society. And help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation. V seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations bit researchers and leaders who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot. com. And displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics, guests at other ideas. Please send up to info at scientific sense. Dot Com. And I can be reached at Gil at eappen. Dot Info. My guests today's facade John. WHO's professor of Law and society at Griffith University in Brisbane Australia. He's also adjunct professor of law at Queensland University of Technology and Research Associated University College Under Center for Blockchain Technologies, he who suggests on the Bloomberg professional globalization of law and the technology in law. But come John. Hello. Thank you. Sure. Yeah. So I want to start with one of your recent people, professions and expertise hog machine learning, and blockchain redesigning the landscape of professional knowledge and organization. In invite you say machine learning has entered the world of the professions. The different impacts automation will have huge impacts on the nature of work and society. Engineering architecture and medicine or early and enthusiastic adopters. Other professions especially law at late you say at in some cases with leptons adopters. could you talk about you know sort of the landscape all? Of Law, profession and. They today in terms of opting these technologies. Certainly Louis interesting because it's a very old profession is. Often considered one of the. Original traditional professions along with medicine and the church. And in a sense law has used different kinds of technology might say I mean does it? Based around writing. And then the printing press and So on yet that. It's always being based on a craft. A skill which the individual person is that enables them to do, whatever is quote if you like and. said, there's never been a lot of room for any kind of automation. Certainly, the has been space for using. A people who are not fully qualified as low as about as paralegals, people like that, who will do a lot of repetitive work document checking and things like that and so on. But what will get into now is the situation where automation through machine learning. There's other kinds of artificial intelligence. is able to start constructing documents example contracts. Check dollop a documents for particular clauses and things like that mature they're up to date and this incense is. Replacing now, the kind of work that noise will do. So I think in some ways more more of of the profession of law is gonNA be subject to automation, but distinction I would many because I think it's quite important here is that A lot of what lawyers do. Is actually quite. Active that that that that the drafting contracts overtime or or they're reviewing documents to some sort or another or they're getting through particular. Negotiation. And so you know a lot of it is the same, but they build up the expertise through doing these same kinds of were over and over again and What we're now finding is that instead of having young lawyers coming in and doing what you might call the grunt work of checking documents and going through discovery applications where he goes through the size boxes of evidence to decide. which are the appropriate documents you want the emails, the invoices order, this sort of stuff that is the kind of work which is lending itself to automation. And, and so that his taking away a lot of the work which is used for trading purposes with young lawyers and is just doing it much quicker. will quickly I mean More efficiently in many ways and probably expensive much much expensive a Lotta. This work is being outsourced to you know legal process outsourcing India or Philippines South Africa places like that. So yeah, that's that's right and so in some ways, the group of lawyers who do the work which requires the skill, the judgment. Is Reducing in some ways. That pool is getting smaller. Yeah Yeah it's it's interesting. The the distinction that you make between automation. And in my job and let's call it decision making right which is you know a lot of work in the business side of this. So for example. in the nineties in large pharmaceutical company So you think about you know rnd. People might think it has really complex selection of programs that design of them, portfolio management, risk management, all those decisions. Genuine companies be say well, senior managers with lots of experience and intuition make those decisions really well right and so that's statement would automatically implied that machines can really do much there. But what we find in the mid nineties says that is systematic analysis of data make those decisions. Don't better. Actually, I've Tom to humans humans. Always seem to make decisions. These are typically bonding the decision. So if you go back and look at it, alternative experiment has not been wrong. So we have no date to say it was a good decision at typically. So human scaffold, fifty percents of making good decisions So do you know just throwing a coin or letting monkey make those decisions so? Yup We found that even complex decision making that humans hold. you know close to their you know kind of domain I'm not necessarily. So we have machines That could do that much better than I. Don't know there's an analog of that in in law I I. Think The may be actually I mean Two three years ago the royal. Society in England decided to arrange a working party on machine learning. One of the things that they put together a a roundtable on machine learning professions resolved to talk about that night and I talked about the history of professions in technology and. and. I think one of the peculiar things that came out to in relation to law is that law. Has always been a sort of on its own. If you think about medicine, for example, medicines always had the teacher hospital institution that sort of straddles the academic quilt and the practice walls and brings those people together and as a result. INCORPORATES loss of, scientific, work. Engineering work as well computing work and things like that. And that's been the first teaching hospital king into existence in in the French revolution in Seventeen eighty-nine. A long history of that. If you look at law, there was nothing equivalent to that whatsoever and there is in fact, actually a big gap between what academy does on what the practitioners in your do so that As a result as before law has come to this a quite late but what we are. Finding I think is that Certainly the management consultancy finding is that because of the nature of a lot of what goes on in legal office a remarkable amount of it can be automated. So what we are getting now is companies setting themselves up to do this automated work. So. We have companies which do nothing but contract our instruction formation sort of company. The typical lawyer would would say to a client Do you WANNA contract classes. Yes I want this for this. And loyal galway draft contract back with it, and then in the con- comes back against as I need another contract, you go through the same process. which is good for the lawyer but not necessarily good kind. What we're finding now is the company's not can think of a few of them that will, in fact, go into the company's show order contracts. Let's see the entire. Corpus of contracts you've got there and they will analyze them. And basically say, all right. We can create a new contract in automated way fairly easily it may need some modification according to special circumstances but on the whole, it's fairly standard and and they can do that INNOVA systematic world meaning the contracts are reviewed that checked. If they're going to expire marketing, you want an unable just the system will cope with that if you're. Yeah. So yeah. No No. No so I was just going to say yes. So that the distinction you make, you know in terms education sort of systematic graduate level education that because as you say, it is low in one sense of soft proficient. You say in called professions like made it to text reengineering this team has a strong concern ensuring that expertise applied in the public interest when as low little bit different from from bad and economics in some sense sort of in the same same vein we have now made economics at really odd. of mathematics you know north of analytics there. Whether they are actually useful from policy making perspective is left to debate but at least it has been an attempt to make this make economic video hard. So so I don't know A. Fascination has been in in law I very much that will happen in law. Oh there things are beginning to happen I mean let me just boob. At. One example I learned in that workshop that I mentioned the Royal Society held. With somebody from the engineering profession talking about. The difference in skills between people who above forty I'm below forty he said. If he he was about Forty Years Austin design an aeroplane, takeout pen and paper Pencil, and paper and. I don't know anyone under forty could do that would know how to do that go onto a computer program undecided there. So you can see that the incorporation of technology into the academy through to the actual. Occupation. Than phones and things is is already a standard and they're in law. It isn't law. As you said, it's still very much a soft skill although I will argue that there is a difference between the way nor is viewed in different parts of the world. So in the United States A law is I think more tilted towards the sciences. So low in economics is one of the big things in the. US. So you got a lot of people working in the of lower economics who might go onto antitrust work no competition work and things like that which across a lot of economics, mathematics and Statistics and so on. In, say a Europe Australia and so on. Law is more allied towards the humanities. And the classics. So it doesn't have that kind of scientific underpinning in that way. So anything that's going to change in these parts if you like is going to be something that's going to be imported from outside. And is going to have a very dramatic impact when whether it does An and I think that's yet to happen. I don't think there's been sort of Cambrian explosion. If you like in in law, the will be one I'm sure but but law has an advantage over engineering economics or the other areas you might. That's With the nature of the rule of law and absent justice is since law as a a way of ordering society is absolutely crucial to everything else. Then, Law and lawyers will say will look you know we have a special status here is different amid leave engineer. We certainly want to make sure bridges stay up. We don't want down but we can design different kinds of bridges. We can design different kinds of legal bills, but they're also the fundamental rules If you want to you know if you're an engineering company and you want to build a bridge in a different country, you're going to have to do it on the basis of the legal rules, which will be just vise by the lawyers according to the country's there in so on. So in in that was what? I might put in a special category if you live. Yea. Yea. Let me let me push NBA John. So. The. The conference that you mentioned you know the Internet is under forty and engineers at. So so one could argue you know from an engineering perspective could argue e- It sexually dangerous. To not use machines to build aircraft the goes you know all the technology that cap today actually help us make the trap lot safer. granted. If you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and Pencil, you might get the principal right. But, but the technology has advanced so much that you really have to use. Technology to do so in some sense, engineering is pushed back. that. I argue this myself then they were naive engineering school. I had a V exposed at my daughter bent to school. She used the same physics book. Twenty, five. meter. I argue that that is sort of backward because data speed no need for an engineer to really learn Newtonian physics anymore because it is prescriptive, it's deterministic can make machines, learn it very quickly and so why spend all? Right. So so then you know if you think about the the law field. I wonder if there is a senior argument that is to say Dan and tape really good lawyer casts lot of intuitions dot expedients to crap something Contract or a discourse, but then maybe the machine scan actually do it even better We haven't really tested that hypothesis yet. Right be almost have this idea that humans are always dominant. Or machines but that the not be true as technology lancers. So what do you think about that in the in the? It's a very important point actually because the. American bosses. being modifying its ethical rules recently to say that lawyers have a duty and obligation to keep up to date with technology. So we already know the technology is now a an important part and I have to say when when I say the word technology, I mean this at all kinds of levels from what you can do with Microsoft word for example, it strays plug ins all the way up to artificial intelligence IBM, Watson, or something like that So that if if lawyers become. A. Uses of technology whether this small firms or big firms or what have you a under the Aba now they they actually have an obligation to make sure that they are up to date. They can't just say we didn't know what we were doing. So I think in that respect, there is a there was a move. The other move that is taking place is actually the push from from the clients. Now, this you have to look into ways one is with corporate clients. The corporation seen US lawyers have to use noise if you'd like want their work done. PHILOS- money on Chiba they wanted to more efficiently They don't want the best piece of work every time they want something that works and they want officiant. UTA A and so on. So it was interesting I think a few years ago. The General Counsel Cisco. Actually made a speech. Saying that he expected his. Lawyers Law firms who worked for the company to be reducing their fees year on year. Now, that's the opposite of what lawyers normally do, which is to raise them year on year. So say that that's one push which is. Very profound push now, coming from the client himselves who are using the beginning to use their procurement departments in in the companies and things like that to help purchase legal services the other aspects which is just as important in this is if you look at the role of lawyers and individuals. So if you is what access to to legal services, it's expensive lawyers are not cheap they charge our money We don't know how to judge the quality of their work and so on. because. There was a credence which we just know that So. On this is where technology can begin to step in and provide services which are. Efficient and often quite. what very well for the individual saying that this. Technology can be seen to be improving access to justice a Lotta people. Yeah. Yeah yes. I want to come back to this. John. I think this is a very important point. So bent on put has a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty maybe not not the right term, but it's called deterministic. It shows beatty ability and so the determination of quality it's not as easy as hard media India nearing or. Right business economics legal all sorts of well foreign that category and the application of technology sort of a different different meaning there but I want to touch on one of the things that you say in the paper, and that is you mentioned this before and that's about training training the next generation. So you savior regulating bodies professions are involved in the collection and reproduction of knowledge intended to be used by the entire body professionals, and so there was an expectation here that you know seeing it professionals. Is Providing the wisdom that knowledge mission to train the next generation now in a technology driven. regime. discuss vacations right. Our expert is going to be a computer engineer in the future. And so so how does that work from from cleaning and knowledge Asian will I think this is This is a crucial issue in it's one which the profession hasn't. Really. Got To grips with yet I think because you think of technology in terms of Predictive analytics a document review and things like this most law schools are not preparing students for this they may be a a a a causal to on some aspect of technology, but it's not something which lawyers themselves are learning. So I think what is going to happen is we're going to find a blending of skills occurring. So law firms will be sense having to bring in a range of technologists who perhaps have. A scales a straddle, both sides of the lines, the lawyers like this too I think I think we're going to find an avangard Who will begin to develop skills that allow them to talk to both sides of the line, the tech people and? Below people if you likes and there will be people who will acquire develop these skills as well but that's that's still some way down the line I didn't think we're anywhere near there yet, and part of the reason for that I think is that you know law is still a very highly regulated profession and and the regulators themselves are in the same situation they are unsure about what is going to happen and they also feel they have an obligation to. Not only ensure that. Customers clients and consumers are protected but in some ways, the profession is protected to if you like so. You know it's it's a it's a fine balancing. There I. Think. It's a fight balancing act and you'd say if the changing changing things. So going back, you know you care as an individual eighteen status of expert. Some form of encapsulation of knowledge and analysis occurs enabling professional experts, derived diagnoses, decisions, and conclusion wrapped late. and you make some distinctions. Type of learning that. Human? Beings. That the distinction between doing drive and become a gift and laster Yes yes. Yes I think that's important. So the the the the principle behind this is that Individuals can acquire a lot of knowledge in in various areas. So as I say learning how to drive a car, you learn how to change gear you though with the speeds. Braking different rates, conditions, and things like that. So. If you WANNA take that further and become a formula one drive or something like that. Then you have to undergo a very different kind of training and that kind of thing becomes a lot more collective rather than individual because you start to you're you're going to be in a group that is gonna be doing a particular kind of our driving. If you like everybody in the group has to understand what each other is doing that group, you can't have people going right a racetrack at two hundred miles an hour or thinking individually feel like they have to have a collective consciousness. About. How to drive in that situation? That's nothing like how? You and I might drive. I'm not saying we bad drivers just saying spreading very different. So I think professional work is not. That different from this in a way. So once you you can go through school and you can do your law degree and you can learn your low. We can learn you engineering's this applies to or professions really. But in order to become a professional in order to become somebody who can operate function within that. Group if you like you then have yourself have to develop collective consciousness and and one way of thinking about it is that we we can kind of tacit knowledge. This assorted knowledge you learn on the job from people, which is not always articulated in a precise formulate kind way but it's something you pick up from the way. Somebody does something you just recognize aw that that's how they've done that might not be. Written down anywhere or anything like that. But you know that's different from now exiting differently from the way that wise doing I think X.'s doing it better I and you and you just, and you can absorb that. That's what I mean by this kind of tacit knowledge and that comes about from the professional context. As how the professional context develops becomes absolutely crucial to how you introduce new ways of doing things new my daddy's new skills new outlooks if you like and I. Think this is where we're on the cost of of this beginning to develop I mean we we know it's got to be done quite how it's going to be done. is yet to be. So. So let me make a statement John and I want I want your reaction to it so eat in hard sciences eight years against again medicine. Expertise has about a consistent happy of remorse. Whereas enor- economics and business in general, let's say expertise is not about the ability to apply rules but to deal with. and at and if that is true, it has lot of implications rate. It has implications as to how we might divide work. Between. And machine in the future. And the skills that universities need to impart on on on new graduates are also quite different. So I always argued in the business. engineering contexts that universities having changed the dog they get mentioned before they're using the same. Using the same. Out Thirty four years without asking the question are those skills relevant, anymore or more importantly watch. Really relevant for a human being in the future rate. do you agree with that that expertise assert more about dealing exceptions apply? Putting it actually. I. I can see the logic behind what you. Saying I think what distinguishes? A good professional whether it's a good engineer good architect or good lawyer or doctor is is somebody who has a certain? This may sound strange but it's the. Imagination. Creativity. about. Kind of flare that allows them to function on the nausea they they've got and developed over the years and the experience. Gathered from Nova pitching what they'd be doing over the years and so on, and it allows them to see around things in ways which they perhaps would. I can give you an example if you like a law. So I'm in in Germany and some other countries. For example, there's a particular way of bundling together mortgage securities I I won't go to detail about this, but this statute that enables you do it. And then you can sell these securities and get money. In certain countries, the UK, the US, and so on. This, NICI. So in a sense to put this kind of a a deal together it. Couldn't be done if you live. So a bank came to one of the large English law firms and said, look we wanted we want to replicate this in in the UK, want to set a market this we're not the statues off there. What can you do and what was interesting was that the law firm then went back to first principles lawyers who were looking at this went back I suppose they looked at some vape basic areas of law matter your trust. And contract from what have you? I'm from that they constructed elite supplement that looked very much like the one in Germany, but without stat sheet and they tested it and it worked. Out To be credibly successful. So much so that the German government started German legal profession started to complain because they said. You can only do this by statute and these we find a way of doing it three. I suppose using law and there it is an they were vowed shops by but that was a particular example if you like of of what you were talking about, they took the exceptions they went back to first principles and said you know or How would we get? This is where we gotta get to, and this is a way right at the beginning what are the steps we need to take and and? And that's what a good loyal will do if you. Right right? Yeah. So that's very important point. So you in your paper dawn as the DREYFUSS and rice note that the proficient performer immersed in the world of skillful activities sees what needs to be done. But decides how to do it. So as we move into a and other technologies, I think it's important point it is. Right from Dad benefactor culture we have been using humans as you mentioned before in lots of with meted activities big not designed for humans I would I would contend enjoy doing things over and over again, and if you had thought of doing that, yeah, because they have to do it for living right and so so we should be moving to word It would where anything that is with pita on delegated to the machine at automation in the bottom of that and Appealed autonation you can have intelligent automation you can have you know reinforcement learning those types of things you have some aspects of intelligence into the into the two. And deploy humans Don't Miss. They're really good at in some case. I'm. So you know we've been studying the green for ages be our no close. It feels to understand mother. Heck it does You know it's not neat learning it. Oh, BBC of. thirty years ago as see that person again, you could see you could you could have a feeling. Then you've seen that before and and what the brain has done actually not only as he that pattern but also age that matter intuitively for thirty years and say, yes, that face I, guess before. and. So there are some superpowers the brain has reaped have been applying the all all. So for a technology might allow. Look I. Think Technology will allow us to incredibly complex things without having to think about too much I. Mean if you look at the way a port functions, for example, any major port these days they've got millions of containers and ships going through them all the time. So there's a lot of paper going through the you those charter parties, bills of lading guarantees. So the lot of legal work that's being done it, it's all quite standard stuff. I mean everybody. KNOWS, what needs to be done and so on. Now, some people are beginning to think while the best way to handle a port if you like I for everybody should know is to put everything that's going on in the poor into a blockchain so that you can see the whole supply chain. You see when something comes in, you can determine when the goods are being offloaded. When they're being shipped, you can stop making the payments as a result of the. Operation of the smart contracts if you like, and the whole thing would be just one quite seamless. In some ways without that much human intervention really just need oversight Some bits of coordination so on. But at the moment is still a a lot of humans are vote in that shipping people, law people, all sorts of things which is. I think insane. That's a waste of resources. We know that there are people who have all kinds of problems that require that creative flair she like as so why waste money on the routine stuff when you could develop skills to the the real need if you like in that way? Yeah Yeah. So I, want that some that bit that John Blockchain, for example, as you mentioned. So so one reason especially in the professions like law and business humans have an advantage justice dimension of trust. and you know at least our generation we don't really. At eighty level, right. So so having that. Human human touch is still extremely important for us. Now, technologies like Blockchain, for example, actually allows that trust to be tensely decoupled, right? Yeah, and I think I think you're right. Look I. Think I mean one of the reasons we make contracts is because We, don't trust each other. So we we devised these documents with all the conditions in them. Something goes wrong. This is what will happen things like that and so on. What are the interesting things? You know people really rely on contracts are met you. You draw up a contract. And the to business people stick him in the drawer I never look at again less something really really fundamental goes wrong but they know sumit doesn't that never look at that again. So you say value of the contract, what did it actually do if you look at some of the Asian countries say like Taiwan or parts of China, you have a assistant coach Guanxi, which is where people developed effective relationships by knowing each other over a period of time around business that allows them to develop trust it. So You know there are different ways of of handling trust, but we we seem to spend a lot of time on trying to minimize something You know which we don't really do a lot of if you like. So I think one of the advantages of of blockchain is that it just it removes a lot of this from from the equation if there's certain things you know that can happen. as a result off if this thing that systems. Lead happened And you know. As, long as you've got oversight and you can see what's going on than. You don't need to be too concerned about it. It will just do what it needs to do in that way and So. Again. That's still very much in the early stages, but we are seeing situations where supply chains A shipping goods from one country to another can actually be done under smart contracts through a blockchain. Technology if you live. That that is now happening I associate goodful dealing with things like gum counterfeiting if you're. Producing. Particular high-quality could site move our phones or particular pharmaceutical products and so on you know it's one way of guaranteeing the quality of the product is you couldn't I say look you can examine the whole supply chain or the data is there. And you know his Eq- code look at it and you get the whole thing going all the way back The. Again, issues around that if you're dealing with the digital. Is Much easier once you start dealing with physical products then you have. A question of how do you get that first initial digitization of the physical if you'd like to goes on so though some people I know here in Australia who? Run A company called Beef Ledger, which is trying to export beef straight beef to China using the blockchain supply chain, which will. Guarantee the security, and the quality of the goods to the Chinese consumer APP because having problems with this before. But I will tell you now do doing something like that does require that the people you are dealing with. You're going to set this up with You have to have a trusting relationship with you before you can set up a technology that will do away with the So we're still in that. That's really early days. I think another a lot of time way to go right Yeah, but the technology works it. Clean potential one could argue contracts exist because they probably known performance if you have a technology that drives that probably the of non-performance zero, then you can actually get rid of for contract. Yeah limit. It is. Not. Goes back to that earlier point I made that. Most most contracts are fairly standard. You know a routine things they're there to. Record a series of transactions payments that have gone on between people without the to do much. If you like you know once you you're you're doing the business, the contract just kind of records that in perpetuity. So the small contract just takes that into a different area and an an actually does the whole implementation and execution without people to be involved in that too much and there's something goes wrong. But if it if it all goes right then back it is done you need to you don't you think about it Right. Yeah. Hasn't been jumping to another are forthcoming people globalization law at. A time of crisis in the? Global Lawyer and so in the say Nikolai Condom Nieve a Russian economists in the nineteen thirties believed the worst economy operates long sixty year cycles Then he called K. Braves. And you safeguarding coronavirus analysis, the fifth psycho young's from nineteen eighty to twenty thirty. It's you save twenty, nineteen forthcoming John You might have. I think so I think say because I, tell you off the what's happening this year I thought my good I couldn't My God. I was just. Owners because you know a contract device these waves up into into what he calls four seasons spring summer or winter at, and we're in the winter off this fifth cycle if you like this is. All the bad stuff happens and he's news war. Famine Disease I think wait a minute that sounds Yes yes. That's exactly right. A. But one of the interesting things about contractors was that you know he he a because he's A. Solid economists are installing a dip executed. By the way you know he he got fed up ninety that was the end of Nikolai unfortunately but he. He said instead of know if you like the ownership of the means of production are being the determinate for changeover from system system, he said it's it's technology and and that the technology will drive you out of the downswing of the last cycle into the upswing of the new cycle, and and the way that works is the win. You're in this kind of winter period because of the kind of economic. Gloom pervades if you like people tend to hold back in subsurface vestment in terms of technological innovation of what have you and so a lot of energy resources, resources, money capital if you like builds up to a second point when people say we're GONNA go for this is this is it? And that's when if you like technology comes to the fall on, really drives it forward. So from that perspective, what he's saying is that you know come right about twenty thirty. If. Things are going slowly now regarding technology they're going to speed up. In. This period and that's when it will. You know really also take take off and people have looked back over our preceding cycles and they've you know it works if you like not just their. Fantasy theory there are also the people who do Cleo dynamics in history these the quantitative historians and they've done a similar kind of analysis of historical periods and said, yeah, you know there are all these citrical. Processes that take place even revolutions occur and big upset occurs and what have you and and. One of their Perspectives which I find quite interesting is that they say one of the reasons for revolutions come about is caused a lease beginning to compete with each other and and an an I look at say trump in in America and I look at the Democrats and I I I would say Modine, India I look she in China and different groups of elites who are engaged really profound struggle for the future of their countries if you live. Out which again is leading to this kind of potential eruption of activity and a new ways of doing things. Yeah. It makes a lot of intuitive sense gone. So one way to think about this also. There are a lot of excesses. So innovating go good their excesses in the system people to believe that invincible they changed assumptions about. because they don't see any. and. Financial markets to right. So these cycles and real real mass that uniquely talking about you can see the. Happening in the financial markets more clearly. But what he's saying is that he happens mortgage and you ask in this paper in two thousand, nineteen for in many ways go. Crystallization off the settling ketone economic forces lost throat ear Kublai doomed as populous. Separates nationalism and lead clients and I think they have that we have probably the answer to that. But you see I think. One of the points I was trying to make an in in this paper walls that Global Law. If you like is is, is the a kind of synthesis off chaos? How do we bring some kind of order to chaos now once you start seeing the undermining? Of his global institutions, you see trump was withdrawn from the W. H. O.. He's he's are criticized NATO he he won't have the do with the International, Criminal Court and so we've got this kind of real life tension now between a an international legal order that's being built up since the Second World War both Ekit economic and legal order is Global And so we can't just a radical globalization I mean even even with covert, we can't eradicate mobilize ation we've got to. Handle covert the Kobe pandemic on a global basis. Otherwise, we'll. We're lost it retreats to a national. Approach is not gonNA. Work? We'll be defeated in that race is going to be global. Might. Be One of my questions in in paper was will who are the people who are going to be doing this? Kind of bringing the the order to chaos if you like and that made argument that it's got to be the global lawyer. And this is a person who not only understand their national legal system but also able to communicate with lawyers and officials. From around the world if you like. To be able to develop a kind of common. Language common discourse that enables them to stop putting these things together are, and it's not just a simple massa of saying mathematically, it works this way or not. It requires the kind of pulling together of people, but it requires that sort of common understanding which. Comes out of what I was saying about this idea of testing knowledge you know as you got this kind of professional consciousness you know how people ought to behave and how they will interact with you, and then that enables you to be out of bizarre to predict how you can do things and so on and so on. That basis I think we can operate kind of global order. It had a a below the institutional level if you're not kind of private. As opposed to the public according and that will put three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah you know I the limit John I don't know if you think this way I limit one could as. Want to stay need for. Countries what does the need for legal system differentials? We set this up with the premise that it's easier to manage small chunks. one could also argue with Edmund Affect. -nology that you don't need to segment this debate that we have done. which might make these types of issues you know. See where you're coming from and I'm going to say yes or no? Yes, I think the home range of of questions that can be handled by the technology the ones we got pay I don't chain, etc. I don't I didn't see any issues there but there are a lot of decisions that needs to be made a book in terms of putting things together and resolve disputes that can only function at a human level because it's not. These are not decisions that are simple binary decisions. If you'd like, it's yes or no it's it's often a lot more nuance than complex about I mean, one of the resources in the World Kiva Zero System, the world amendment which is being fought over if you like is water, a water is probably one of the most valuable resources anywhere and it's you often find that rivers and things like that sort of flow between countries, they form borders. And and you are you know people if you look at the Nile, ESL start stopping in Sudan throwaway down to the Mediterranean. So he goes to countries all three countries, east European and then into Egypt's and so unwell well, who has the right to put it dime at a particular place and things like that all of that has to be cooled in act. You see a not going to be done at a human level that that's what caused the skills in negotiation judgment interpretation understanding if you like of the other people, no machine can do that I got. Yes before we conclude, I want to touch on one other thing So in the paper, you say as technology and culture intersect more and more. Ethical conundrums will intensify these raising questions about the rights and obligations of robots. And go beyond as moves. Three laws of robotics in two issues of rights of all moon. Algorithm, stem serves. So this is this is an area that be Kevin babies even even really form some notions allowed rights of all modes at rights of a are. Sai, gets more sophisticated. Yes. Yes. I do. I, mean I think this is one of the issues we already know some of the problems with algorithms and and you know can we can be are they transplanted from you see what's going on the ethical issues around the construction and implementation of algorithms and things like that. But I I I think looking into the future we all going to rely on things like robots. And various kinds of machines so much more so that if you look at a country like Japan, which is a a an aging population such that it doesn't have sufficient younger people to look after the people who need looking often. So machines, I'll be part of that, and that means people will stop forming real relationships with machines and and so that's when I would say. Okay. So let's think about how we View a potential rights of machine that we give. We give rise to humans. Yes. We know that we give rights to animals. Now we've also given rights to viz in forest in some countries as well as so machines I think our. Next logical step you know do we do we treat them with respect Let me give you one. Very classic example yet the production of. Robots for sex if you like is a major industry at the moment, some manufacturers say they want to program them say that people can act out rape fantasies will do we want that I? Mean you know should we be at first of all? You know? We should be having people behave in this particular kind of way, but even an uncertain if you do it against another human being, you'll be punished for it and you say we'll a machine is a piece of property you should be you should be doing that but I'm getting to think that maybe a machines should be treated with dignity say that we are treat ourselves with. Dixie. This a kind of reflexive situation here what we? Do to machines we do to each other, and they may again due to US depending on how they evolve and and move forward in that way is a very contentious issue. A lot of people would reject that right out of hand I agree I think we've got to stop thinking about stop dining forward because I. think we're going to at some point again. I. Don't know when. But at some point we will be having to deal with that. It's a it's a very important point. Joan. So if I understand you correctly, you know that the rights to animals the rights to inanimate. INANIMATE things like Lubers The recent those exist is because of its effects on humans and can see video a clear link in the future we would see a very clear link between a algorithms and robots ended affects on human. So this is not me You know each not fantasy in the sense that yeah, robots should have rights, but rather it's a more conceptual question. Any fraud did not have rights each going to cabin negative I I think that's absolutely true. I mean just to highlight that if you like this firm called Boston Dynamics that produces. Robots and they produced these videos of these. Now, these robots are resistant being pushed over and things like that, and it was quite interesting because a lot of people say all you can't treat them in this way. This is awful and so what I mean that that's the answer for more fighting to to the extreme extent. But it I think you know on the basis what you're saying, you know how we Oakland. Hold human beings accountable to each other in an increasingly complex world machines have become part of that. We can't just have them all sitting on the edge as though they're not part of who we are, what we are and how we do things. Right. So. Incursion Johnny fuel sort of look forward five years. At. The intersection of law and technology. But you think people see sort of the biggest. I. Think you'll see it two wins. On the you know for the individual The individual, you're going to see a lot of them just interacting. With artificial Tennessee, say lost questions about what my rights for this how do I deal with a tendency agreement? How do I complain against a producer company or something like that or that's going to be automated? is fairly straightforward to do and and it will only need A. Minimal. Amount of human inside of. An intervention if you like. At the other end at the. In I think we're GONNA see more and more technology coming in because as those basic functions that are. Being, carried out by junior people or or paralegals or things like that are the ones which are going to be increasing, automating creasing. I'm. We will replace the humans and just let machines do that because there's no point in wasting human resources on that whether that means we need fuel or more lawyers That's an open question I think it will that we need different kinds of lawyers We will need Roy Moore to logically aware much more sophisticated. They don't it's be programmers or odors or anything like that, but they need to have a quite a a a a strong understanding and gross what's going on in technology in that way if you like so. Yeah. We can definitely see an. Yeah, so I, think you mentioned the so from a structure perspective in all forum DC law firm sprucing to word. It a group of equity partners. Around it by machine so to speak well, I. Think. I was in that paper or another one I. I'm S-. Forecast. Law. Firms. Being. Distributed decentralized we'll tournaments organizations running on a blockchain with with the various people. into setting when they will no I. Think the law firm is still a very strong and powerful is Shutian, that's not gonNA disappear straight away. But certainly the numbers of partners who control things will shrink. They'll that will get smarter as proportion and yes, they will be surrounded by machines and they surrounded by people who are servicing those machines. Your excellent. Yeah. Thanks for doing this weekend. John really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much. It's been great fun and very

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

Scientific Sense

59:58 min | 3 months ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

"Welcome to the site of accents podcast. Where we explore emerging ideas from signs, policy economics, and technology. My name is Gill eappen. We talk with woods, leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest. Scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation. Be Color a wide variety of domains red new discoveries are made. and New Technologies are developed on a daily basis. The most interested in how new ideas affect society. And help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation. V seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations bit researchers and leaders who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot. com. And displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics, guests at other ideas. Please send up to info at scientific sense. Dot Com. And I can be reached at Gil at eappen. Dot Info. My guests today's facade John. WHO's professor of Law and society at Griffith University in Brisbane Australia. He's also adjunct professor of law at Queensland University of Technology and Research Associated University College Under Center for Blockchain Technologies, he who suggests on the Bloomberg professional globalization of law and the technology in law. But come John. Hello. Thank you. Sure. Yeah. So I want to start with one of your recent people, professions and expertise hog machine learning, and blockchain redesigning the landscape of professional knowledge and organization. In invite you say machine learning has entered the world of the professions. The different impacts automation will have huge impacts on the nature of work and society. Engineering architecture and medicine or early and enthusiastic adopters. Other professions especially law at late you say at in some cases with leptons adopters. could you talk about you know sort of the landscape all? Of Law, profession and. They today in terms of opting these technologies. Certainly Louis interesting because it's a very old profession is. Often considered one of the. Original traditional professions along with medicine and the church. And in a sense law has used different kinds of technology might say I mean does it? Based around writing. And then the printing press and So on yet that. It's always being based on a craft. A skill which the individual person is that enables them to do, whatever is quote if you like and. said, there's never been a lot of room for any kind of automation. Certainly, the has been space for using. A people who are not fully qualified as low as about as paralegals, people like that, who will do a lot of repetitive work document checking and things like that and so on. But what will get into now is the situation where automation through machine learning. There's other kinds of artificial intelligence. is able to start constructing documents example contracts. Check dollop a documents for particular clauses and things like that mature they're up to date and this incense is. Replacing now, the kind of work that noise will do. So I think in some ways more more of of the profession of law is gonNA be subject to automation, but distinction I would many because I think it's quite important here is that A lot of what lawyers do. Is actually quite. Active that that that that the drafting contracts overtime or or they're reviewing documents to some sort or another or they're getting through particular. Negotiation. And so you know a lot of it is the same, but they build up the expertise through doing these same kinds of were over and over again and What we're now finding is that instead of having young lawyers coming in and doing what you might call the grunt work of checking documents and going through discovery applications where he goes through the size boxes of evidence to decide. which are the appropriate documents you want the emails, the invoices order, this sort of stuff that is the kind of work which is lending itself to automation. And, and so that his taking away a lot of the work which is used for trading purposes with young lawyers and is just doing it much quicker. will quickly I mean More efficiently in many ways and probably expensive much much expensive a Lotta. This work is being outsourced to you know legal process outsourcing India or Philippines South Africa places like that. So yeah, that's that's right and so in some ways, the group of lawyers who do the work which requires the skill, the judgment. Is Reducing in some ways. That pool is getting smaller. Yeah Yeah it's it's interesting. The the distinction that you make between automation. And in my job and let's call it decision making right which is you know a lot of work in the business side of this. So for example. in the nineties in large pharmaceutical company So you think about you know rnd. People might think it has really complex selection of programs that design of them, portfolio management, risk management, all those decisions. Genuine companies be say well, senior managers with lots of experience and intuition make those decisions really well right and so that's statement would automatically implied that machines can really do much there. But what we find in the mid nineties says that is systematic analysis of data make those decisions. Don't better. Actually, I've Tom to humans humans. Always seem to make decisions. These are typically bonding the decision. So if you go back and look at it, alternative experiment has not been wrong. So we have no date to say it was a good decision at typically. So human scaffold, fifty percents of making good decisions So do you know just throwing a coin or letting monkey make those decisions so? Yup We found that even complex decision making that humans hold. you know close to their you know kind of domain I'm not necessarily. So we have machines That could do that much better than I. Don't know there's an analog of that in in law I I. Think The may be actually I mean Two three years ago the royal. Society in England decided to arrange a working party on machine learning. One of the things that they put together a a roundtable on machine learning professions resolved to talk about that night and I talked about the history of professions in technology and. and. I think one of the peculiar things that came out to in relation to law is that law. Has always been a sort of on its own. If you think about medicine, for example, medicines always had the teacher hospital institution that sort of straddles the academic quilt and the practice walls and brings those people together and as a result. INCORPORATES loss of, scientific, work. Engineering work as well computing work and things like that. And that's been the first teaching hospital king into existence in in the French revolution in Seventeen eighty-nine. A long history of that. If you look at law, there was nothing equivalent to that whatsoever and there is in fact, actually a big gap between what academy does on what the practitioners in your do so that As a result as before law has come to this a quite late but what we are. Finding I think is that Certainly the management consultancy finding is that because of the nature of a lot of what goes on in legal office a remarkable amount of it can be automated. So what we are getting now is companies setting themselves up to do this automated work. So. We have companies which do nothing but contract our instruction formation sort of company. The typical lawyer would would say to a client Do you WANNA contract classes. Yes I want this for this. And loyal galway draft contract back with it, and then in the con- comes back against as I need another contract, you go through the same process. which is good for the lawyer but not necessarily good kind. What we're finding now is the company's not can think of a few of them that will, in fact, go into the company's show order contracts. Let's see the entire. Corpus of contracts you've got there and they will analyze them. And basically say, all right. We can create a new contract in automated way fairly easily it may need some modification according to special circumstances but on the whole, it's fairly standard and and they can do that INNOVA systematic world meaning the contracts are reviewed that checked. If they're going to expire marketing, you want an unable just the system will cope with that if you're. Yeah. So yeah. No No. No so I was just going to say yes. So that the distinction you make, you know in terms education sort of systematic graduate level education that because as you say, it is low in one sense of soft proficient. You say in called professions like made it to text reengineering this team has a strong concern ensuring that expertise applied in the public interest when as low little bit different from from bad and economics in some sense sort of in the same same vein we have now made economics at really odd. of mathematics you know north of analytics there. Whether they are actually useful from policy making perspective is left to debate but at least it has been an attempt to make this make economic video hard. So so I don't know A. Fascination has been in in law I very much that will happen in law. Oh there things are beginning to happen I mean let me just boob. At. One example I learned in that workshop that I mentioned the Royal Society held. With somebody from the engineering profession talking about. The difference in skills between people who above forty I'm below forty he said. If he he was about Forty Years Austin design an aeroplane, takeout pen and paper Pencil, and paper and. I don't know anyone under forty could do that would know how to do that go onto a computer program undecided there. So you can see that the incorporation of technology into the academy through to the actual. Occupation. Than phones and things is is already a standard and they're in law. It isn't law. As you said, it's still very much a soft skill although I will argue that there is a difference between the way nor is viewed in different parts of the world. So in the United States A law is I think more tilted towards the sciences. So low in economics is one of the big things in the. US. So you got a lot of people working in the of lower economics who might go onto antitrust work no competition work and things like that which across a lot of economics, mathematics and Statistics and so on. In, say a Europe Australia and so on. Law is more allied towards the humanities. And the classics. So it doesn't have that kind of scientific underpinning in that way. So anything that's going to change in these parts if you like is going to be something that's going to be imported from outside. And is going to have a very dramatic impact when whether it does An and I think that's yet to happen. I don't think there's been sort of Cambrian explosion. If you like in in law, the will be one I'm sure but but law has an advantage over engineering economics or the other areas you might. That's With the nature of the rule of law and absent justice is since law as a a way of ordering society is absolutely crucial to everything else. Then, Law and lawyers will say will look you know we have a special status here is different amid leave engineer. We certainly want to make sure bridges stay up. We don't want down but we can design different kinds of bridges. We can design different kinds of legal bills, but they're also the fundamental rules If you want to you know if you're an engineering company and you want to build a bridge in a different country, you're going to have to do it on the basis of the legal rules, which will be just vise by the lawyers according to the country's there in so on. So in in that was what? I might put in a special category if you live. Yea. Yea. Let me let me push NBA John. So. The. The conference that you mentioned you know the Internet is under forty and engineers at. So so one could argue you know from an engineering perspective could argue e- It sexually dangerous. To not use machines to build aircraft the goes you know all the technology that cap today actually help us make the trap lot safer. granted. If you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and Pencil, you might get the principal right. But, but the technology has advanced so much that you really have to use. Technology to do so in some sense, engineering is pushed back. that. I argue this myself then they were naive engineering school. I had a V exposed at my daughter bent to school. She used the same physics book. Twenty, five. meter. I argue that that is sort of backward because data speed no need for an engineer to really learn Newtonian physics anymore because it is prescriptive, it's deterministic can make machines, learn it very quickly and so why spend all? Right. So so then you know if you think about the the law field. I wonder if there is a senior argument that is to say Dan and tape really good lawyer casts lot of intuitions dot expedients to crap something Contract or a discourse, but then maybe the machine scan actually do it even better We haven't really tested that hypothesis yet. Right be almost have this idea that humans are always dominant. Or machines but that the not be true as technology lancers. So what do you think about that in the in the? It's a very important point actually because the. American bosses. being modifying its ethical rules recently to say that lawyers have a duty and obligation to keep up to date with technology. So we already know the technology is now a an important part and I have to say when when I say the word technology, I mean this at all kinds of levels from what you can do with Microsoft word for example, it strays plug ins all the way up to artificial intelligence IBM, Watson, or something like that So that if if lawyers become. A. Uses of technology whether this small firms or big firms or what have you a under the Aba now they they actually have an obligation to make sure that they are up to date. They can't just say we didn't know what we were doing. So I think in that respect, there is a there was a move. The other move that is taking place is actually the push from from the clients. Now, this you have to look into ways one is with corporate clients. The corporation seen US lawyers have to use noise if you'd like want their work done. PHILOS- money on Chiba they wanted to more efficiently They don't want the best piece of work every time they want something that works and they want officiant. UTA A and so on. So it was interesting I think a few years ago. The General Counsel Cisco. Actually made a speech. Saying that he expected his. Lawyers Law firms who worked for the company to be reducing their fees year on year. Now, that's the opposite of what lawyers normally do, which is to raise them year on year. So say that that's one push which is. Very profound push now, coming from the client himselves who are using the beginning to use their procurement departments in in the companies and things like that to help purchase legal services the other aspects which is just as important in this is if you look at the role of lawyers and individuals. So if you is what access to to legal services, it's expensive lawyers are not cheap they charge our money We don't know how to judge the quality of their work and so on. because. There was a credence which we just know that So. On this is where technology can begin to step in and provide services which are. Efficient and often quite. what very well for the individual saying that this. Technology can be seen to be improving access to justice a Lotta people. Yeah. Yeah yes. I want to come back to this. John. I think this is a very important point. So bent on put has a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty maybe not not the right term, but it's called deterministic. It shows beatty ability and so the determination of quality it's not as easy as hard media India nearing or. Right business economics legal all sorts of well foreign that category and the application of technology sort of a different different meaning there but I want to touch on one of the things that you say in the paper, and that is you mentioned this before and that's about training training the next generation. So you savior regulating bodies professions are involved in the collection and reproduction of knowledge intended to be used by the entire body professionals, and so there was an expectation here that you know seeing it professionals. Is Providing the wisdom that knowledge mission to train the next generation now in a technology driven. regime. discuss vacations right. Our expert is going to be a computer engineer in the future. And so so how does that work from from cleaning and knowledge Asian will I think this is This is a crucial issue in it's one which the profession hasn't. Really. Got To grips with yet I think because you think of technology in terms of Predictive analytics a document review and things like this most law schools are not preparing students for this they may be a a a a causal to on some aspect of technology, but it's not something which lawyers themselves are learning. So I think what is going to happen is we're going to find a blending of skills occurring. So law firms will be sense having to bring in a range of technologists who perhaps have. A scales a straddle, both sides of the lines, the lawyers like this too I think I think we're going to find an avangard Who will begin to develop skills that allow them to talk to both sides of the line, the tech people and? Below people if you likes and there will be people who will acquire develop these skills as well but that's that's still some way down the line I didn't think we're anywhere near there yet, and part of the reason for that I think is that you know law is still a very highly regulated profession and and the regulators themselves are in the same situation they are unsure about what is going to happen and they also feel they have an obligation to. Not only ensure that. Customers clients and consumers are protected but in some ways, the profession is protected to if you like so. You know it's it's a it's a fine balancing. There I. Think. It's a fight balancing act and you'd say if the changing changing things. So going back, you know you care as an individual eighteen status of expert. Some form of encapsulation of knowledge and analysis occurs enabling professional experts, derived diagnoses, decisions, and conclusion wrapped late. and you make some distinctions. Type of learning that. Human? Beings. That the distinction between doing drive and become a gift and laster Yes yes. Yes I think that's important. So the the the the principle behind this is that Individuals can acquire a lot of knowledge in in various areas. So as I say learning how to drive a car, you learn how to change gear you though with the speeds. Braking different rates, conditions, and things like that. So. If you WANNA take that further and become a formula one drive or something like that. Then you have to undergo a very different kind of training and that kind of thing becomes a lot more collective rather than individual because you start to you're you're going to be in a group that is gonna be doing a particular kind of our driving. If you like everybody in the group has to understand what each other is doing that group, you can't have people going right a racetrack at two hundred miles an hour or thinking individually feel like they have to have a collective consciousness. About. How to drive in that situation? That's nothing like how? You and I might drive. I'm not saying we bad drivers just saying spreading very different. So I think professional work is not. That different from this in a way. So once you you can go through school and you can do your law degree and you can learn your low. We can learn you engineering's this applies to or professions really. But in order to become a professional in order to become somebody who can operate function within that. Group if you like you then have yourself have to develop collective consciousness and and one way of thinking about it is that we we can kind of tacit knowledge. This assorted knowledge you learn on the job from people, which is not always articulated in a precise formulate kind way but it's something you pick up from the way. Somebody does something you just recognize aw that that's how they've done that might not be. Written down anywhere or anything like that. But you know that's different from now exiting differently from the way that wise doing I think X.'s doing it better I and you and you just, and you can absorb that. That's what I mean by this kind of tacit knowledge and that comes about from the professional context. As how the professional context develops becomes absolutely crucial to how you introduce new ways of doing things new my daddy's new skills new outlooks if you like and I. Think this is where we're on the cost of of this beginning to develop I mean we we know it's got to be done quite how it's going to be done. is yet to be. So. So let me make a statement John and I want I want your reaction to it so eat in hard sciences eight years against again medicine. Expertise has about a consistent happy of remorse. Whereas enor- economics and business in general, let's say expertise is not about the ability to apply rules but to deal with. and at and if that is true, it has lot of implications rate. It has implications as to how we might divide work. Between. And machine in the future. And the skills that universities need to impart on on on new graduates are also quite different. So I always argued in the business. engineering contexts that universities having changed the dog they get mentioned before they're using the same. Using the same. Out Thirty four years without asking the question are those skills relevant, anymore or more importantly watch. Really relevant for a human being in the future rate. do you agree with that that expertise assert more about dealing exceptions apply? Putting it actually. I. I can see the logic behind what you. Saying I think what distinguishes? A good professional whether it's a good engineer good architect or good lawyer or doctor is is somebody who has a certain? This may sound strange but it's the. Imagination. Creativity. about. Kind of flare that allows them to function on the nausea they they've got and developed over the years and the experience. Gathered from Nova pitching what they'd be doing over the years and so on, and it allows them to see around things in ways which they perhaps would. I can give you an example if you like a law. So I'm in in Germany and some other countries. For example, there's a particular way of bundling together mortgage securities I I won't go to detail about this, but this statute that enables you do it. And then you can sell these securities and get money. In certain countries, the UK, the US, and so on. This, NICI. So in a sense to put this kind of a a deal together it. Couldn't be done if you live. So a bank came to one of the large English law firms and said, look we wanted we want to replicate this in in the UK, want to set a market this we're not the statues off there. What can you do and what was interesting was that the law firm then went back to first principles lawyers who were looking at this went back I suppose they looked at some vape basic areas of law matter your trust. And contract from what have you? I'm from that they constructed elite supplement that looked very much like the one in Germany, but without stat sheet and they tested it and it worked. Out To be credibly successful. So much so that the German government started German legal profession started to complain because they said. You can only do this by statute and these we find a way of doing it three. I suppose using law and there it is an they were vowed shops by but that was a particular example if you like of of what you were talking about, they took the exceptions they went back to first principles and said you know or How would we get? This is where we gotta get to, and this is a way right at the beginning what are the steps we need to take and and? And that's what a good loyal will do if you. Right right? Yeah. So that's very important point. So you in your paper dawn as the DREYFUSS and rice note that the proficient performer immersed in the world of skillful activities sees what needs to be done. But decides how to do it. So as we move into a and other technologies, I think it's important point it is. Right from Dad benefactor culture we have been using humans as you mentioned before in lots of with meted activities big not designed for humans I would I would contend enjoy doing things over and over again, and if you had thought of doing that, yeah, because they have to do it for living right and so so we should be moving to word It would where anything that is with pita on delegated to the machine at automation in the bottom of that and Appealed autonation you can have intelligent automation you can have you know reinforcement learning those types of things you have some aspects of intelligence into the into the two. And deploy humans Don't Miss. They're really good at in some case. I'm. So you know we've been studying the green for ages be our no close. It feels to understand mother. Heck it does You know it's not neat learning it. Oh, BBC of. thirty years ago as see that person again, you could see you could you could have a feeling. Then you've seen that before and and what the brain has done actually not only as he that pattern but also age that matter intuitively for thirty years and say, yes, that face I, guess before. and. So there are some superpowers the brain has reaped have been applying the all all. So for a technology might allow. Look I. Think Technology will allow us to incredibly complex things without having to think about too much I. Mean if you look at the way a port functions, for example, any major port these days they've got millions of containers and ships going through them all the time. So there's a lot of paper going through the you those charter parties, bills of lading guarantees. So the lot of legal work that's being done it, it's all quite standard stuff. I mean everybody. KNOWS, what needs to be done and so on. Now, some people are beginning to think while the best way to handle a port if you like I for everybody should know is to put everything that's going on in the poor into a blockchain so that you can see the whole supply chain. You see when something comes in, you can determine when the goods are being offloaded. When they're being shipped, you can stop making the payments as a result of the. Operation of the smart contracts if you like, and the whole thing would be just one quite seamless. In some ways without that much human intervention really just need oversight Some bits of coordination so on. But at the moment is still a a lot of humans are vote in that shipping people, law people, all sorts of things which is. I think insane. That's a waste of resources. We know that there are people who have all kinds of problems that require that creative flair she like as so why waste money on the routine stuff when you could develop skills to the the real need if you like in that way? Yeah Yeah. So I, want that some that bit that John Blockchain, for example, as you mentioned. So so one reason especially in the professions like law and business humans have an advantage justice dimension of trust. and you know at least our generation we don't really. At eighty level, right. So so having that. Human human touch is still extremely important for us. Now, technologies like Blockchain, for example, actually allows that trust to be tensely decoupled, right? Yeah, and I think I think you're right. Look I. Think I mean one of the reasons we make contracts is because We, don't trust each other. So we we devised these documents with all the conditions in them. Something goes wrong. This is what will happen things like that and so on. What are the interesting things? You know people really rely on contracts are met you. You draw up a contract. And the to business people stick him in the drawer I never look at again less something really really fundamental goes wrong but they know sumit doesn't that never look at that again. So you say value of the contract, what did it actually do if you look at some of the Asian countries say like Taiwan or parts of China, you have a assistant coach Guanxi, which is where people developed effective relationships by knowing each other over a period of time around business that allows them to develop trust it. So You know there are different ways of of handling trust, but we we seem to spend a lot of time on trying to minimize something You know which we don't really do a lot of if you like. So I think one of the advantages of of blockchain is that it just it removes a lot of this from from the equation if there's certain things you know that can happen. as a result off if this thing that systems. Lead happened And you know. As, long as you've got oversight and you can see what's going on than. You don't need to be too concerned about it. It will just do what it needs to do in that way and So. Again. That's still very much in the early stages, but we are seeing situations where supply chains A shipping goods from one country to another can actually be done under smart contracts through a blockchain. Technology if you live. That that is now happening I associate goodful dealing with things like gum counterfeiting if you're. Producing. Particular high-quality could site move our phones or particular pharmaceutical products and so on you know it's one way of guaranteeing the quality of the product is you couldn't I say look you can examine the whole supply chain or the data is there. And you know his Eq- code look at it and you get the whole thing going all the way back The. Again, issues around that if you're dealing with the digital. Is Much easier once you start dealing with physical products then you have. A question of how do you get that first initial digitization of the physical if you'd like to goes on so though some people I know here in Australia who? Run A company called Beef Ledger, which is trying to export beef straight beef to China using the blockchain supply chain, which will. Guarantee the security, and the quality of the goods to the Chinese consumer APP because having problems with this before. But I will tell you now do doing something like that does require that the people you are dealing with. You're going to set this up with You have to have a trusting relationship with you before you can set up a technology that will do away with the So we're still in that. That's really early days. I think another a lot of time way to go right Yeah, but the technology works it. Clean potential one could argue contracts exist because they probably known performance if you have a technology that drives that probably the of non-performance zero, then you can actually get rid of for contract. Yeah limit. It is. Not. Goes back to that earlier point I made that. Most most contracts are fairly standard. You know a routine things they're there to. Record a series of transactions payments that have gone on between people without the to do much. If you like you know once you you're you're doing the business, the contract just kind of records that in perpetuity. So the small contract just takes that into a different area and an an actually does the whole implementation and execution without people to be involved in that too much and there's something goes wrong. But if it if it all goes right then back it is done you need to you don't you think about it Right. Yeah. Hasn't been jumping to another are forthcoming people globalization law at. A time of crisis in the? Global Lawyer and so in the say Nikolai Condom Nieve a Russian economists in the nineteen thirties believed the worst economy operates long sixty year cycles Then he called K. Braves. And you safeguarding coronavirus analysis, the fifth psycho young's from nineteen eighty to twenty thirty. It's you save twenty, nineteen forthcoming John You might have. I think so I think say because I, tell you off the what's happening this year I thought my good I couldn't My God. I was just. Owners because you know a contract device these waves up into into what he calls four seasons spring summer or winter at, and we're in the winter off this fifth cycle if you like this is. All the bad stuff happens and he's news war. Famine Disease I think wait a minute that sounds Yes yes. That's exactly right. A. But one of the interesting things about contractors was that you know he he a because he's A. Solid economists are installing a dip executed. By the way you know he he got fed up ninety that was the end of Nikolai unfortunately but he. He said instead of know if you like the ownership of the means of production are being the determinate for changeover from system system, he said it's it's technology and and that the technology will drive you out of the downswing of the last cycle into the upswing of the new cycle, and and the way that works is the win. You're in this kind of winter period because of the kind of economic. Gloom pervades if you like people tend to hold back in subsurface vestment in terms of technological innovation of what have you and so a lot of energy resources, resources, money capital if you like builds up to a second point when people say we're GONNA go for this is this is it? And that's when if you like technology comes to the fall on, really drives it forward. So from that perspective, what he's saying is that you know come right about twenty thirty. If. Things are going slowly now regarding technology they're going to speed up. In. This period and that's when it will. You know really also take take off and people have looked back over our preceding cycles and they've you know it works if you like not just their. Fantasy theory there are also the people who do Cleo dynamics in history these the quantitative historians and they've done a similar kind of analysis of historical periods and said, yeah, you know there are all these citrical. Processes that take place even revolutions occur and big upset occurs and what have you and and. One of their Perspectives which I find quite interesting is that they say one of the reasons for revolutions come about is caused a lease beginning to compete with each other and and an an I look at say trump in in America and I look at the Democrats and I I I would say Modine, India I look she in China and different groups of elites who are engaged really profound struggle for the future of their countries if you live. Out which again is leading to this kind of potential eruption of activity and a new ways of doing things. Yeah. It makes a lot of intuitive sense gone. So one way to think about this also. There are a lot of excesses. So innovating go good their excesses in the system people to believe that invincible they changed assumptions about. because they don't see any. and. Financial markets to right. So these cycles and real real mass that uniquely talking about you can see the. Happening in the financial markets more clearly. But what he's saying is that he happens mortgage and you ask in this paper in two thousand, nineteen for in many ways go. Crystallization off the settling ketone economic forces lost throat ear Kublai doomed as populous. Separates nationalism and lead clients and I think they have that we have probably the answer to that. But you see I think. One of the points I was trying to make an in in this paper walls that Global Law. If you like is is, is the a kind of synthesis off chaos? How do we bring some kind of order to chaos now once you start seeing the undermining? Of his global institutions, you see trump was withdrawn from the W. H. O.. He's he's are criticized NATO he he won't have the do with the International, Criminal Court and so we've got this kind of real life tension now between a an international legal order that's being built up since the Second World War both Ekit economic and legal order is Global And so we can't just a radical globalization I mean even even with covert, we can't eradicate mobilize ation we've got to. Handle covert the Kobe pandemic on a global basis. Otherwise, we'll. We're lost it retreats to a national. Approach is not gonNA. Work? We'll be defeated in that race is going to be global. Might. Be One of my questions in in paper was will who are the people who are going to be doing this? Kind of bringing the the order to chaos if you like and that made argument that it's got to be the global lawyer. And this is a person who not only understand their national legal system but also able to communicate with lawyers and officials. From around the world if you like. To be able to develop a kind of common. Language common discourse that enables them to stop putting these things together are, and it's not just a simple massa of saying mathematically, it works this way or not. It requires the kind of pulling together of people, but it requires that sort of common understanding which. Comes out of what I was saying about this idea of testing knowledge you know as you got this kind of professional consciousness you know how people ought to behave and how they will interact with you, and then that enables you to be out of bizarre to predict how you can do things and so on and so on. That basis I think we can operate kind of global order. It had a a below the institutional level if you're not kind of private. As opposed to the public according and that will put three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah you know I the limit John I don't know if you think this way I limit one could as. Want to stay need for. Countries what does the need for legal system differentials? We set this up with the premise that it's easier to manage small chunks. one could also argue with Edmund Affect. -nology that you don't need to segment this debate that we have done. which might make these types of issues you know. See where you're coming from and I'm going to say yes or no? Yes, I think the home range of of questions that can be handled by the technology the ones we got pay I don't chain, etc. I don't I didn't see any issues there but there are a lot of decisions that needs to be made a book in terms of putting things together and resolve disputes that can only function at a human level because it's not. These are not decisions that are simple binary decisions. If you'd like, it's yes or no it's it's often a lot more nuance than complex about I mean, one of the resources in the World Kiva Zero System, the world amendment which is being fought over if you like is water, a water is probably one of the most valuable resources anywhere and it's you often find that rivers and things like that sort of flow between countries, they form borders. And and you are you know people if you look at the Nile, ESL start stopping in Sudan throwaway down to the Mediterranean. So he goes to countries all three countries, east European and then into Egypt's and so unwell well, who has the right to put it dime at a particular place and things like that all of that has to be cooled in act. You see a not going to be done at a human level that that's what caused the skills in negotiation judgment interpretation understanding if you like of the other people, no machine can do that I got. Yes before we conclude, I want to touch on one other thing So in the paper, you say as technology and culture intersect more and more. Ethical conundrums will intensify these raising questions about the rights and obligations of robots. And go beyond as moves. Three laws of robotics in two issues of rights of all moon. Algorithm, stem serves. So this is this is an area that be Kevin babies even even really form some notions allowed rights of all modes at rights of a are. Sai, gets more sophisticated. Yes. Yes. I do. I, mean I think this is one of the issues we already know some of the problems with algorithms and and you know can we can be are they transplanted from you see what's going on the ethical issues around the construction and implementation of algorithms and things like that. But I I I think looking into the future we all going to rely on things like robots. And various kinds of machines so much more so that if you look at a country like Japan, which is a a an aging population such that it doesn't have sufficient younger people to look after the people who need looking often. So machines, I'll be part of that, and that means people will stop forming real relationships with machines and and so that's when I would say. Okay. So let's think about how we View a potential rights of machine that we give. We give rise to humans. Yes. We know that we give rights to animals. Now we've also given rights to viz in forest in some countries as well as so machines I think our. Next logical step you know do we do we treat them with respect Let me give you one. Very classic example yet the production of. Robots for sex if you like is a major industry at the moment, some manufacturers say they want to program them say that people can act out rape fantasies will do we want that I? Mean you know should we be at first of all? You know? We should be having people behave in this particular kind of way, but even an uncertain if you do it against another human being, you'll be punished for it and you say we'll a machine is a piece of property you should be you should be doing that but I'm getting to think that maybe a machines should be treated with dignity say that we are treat ourselves with. Dixie. This a kind of reflexive situation here what we? Do to machines we do to each other, and they may again due to US depending on how they evolve and and move forward in that way is a very contentious issue. A lot of people would reject that right out of hand I agree I think we've got to stop thinking about stop dining forward because I. think we're going to at some point again. I. Don't know when. But at some point we will be having to deal with that. It's a it's a very important point. Joan. So if I understand you correctly, you know that the rights to animals the rights to inanimate. INANIMATE things like Lubers The recent those exist is because of its effects on humans and can see video a clear link in the future we would see a very clear link between a algorithms and robots ended affects on human. So this is not me You know each not fantasy in the sense that yeah, robots should have rights, but rather it's a more conceptual question. Any fraud did not have rights each going to cabin negative I I think that's absolutely true. I mean just to highlight that if you like this firm called Boston Dynamics that produces. Robots and they produced these videos of these. Now, these robots are resistant being pushed over and things like that, and it was quite interesting because a lot of people say all you can't treat them in this way. This is awful and so what I mean that that's the answer for more fighting to to the extreme extent. But it I think you know on the basis what you're saying, you know how we Oakland. Hold human beings accountable to each other in an increasingly complex world machines have become part of that. We can't just have them all sitting on the edge as though they're not part of who we are, what we are and how we do things. Right. So. Incursion Johnny fuel sort of look forward five years. At. The intersection of law and technology. But you think people see sort of the biggest. I. Think you'll see it two wins. On the you know for the individual The individual, you're going to see a lot of them just interacting. With artificial Tennessee, say lost questions about what my rights for this how do I deal with a tendency agreement? How do I complain against a producer company or something like that or that's going to be automated? is fairly straightforward to do and and it will only need A. Minimal. Amount of human inside of. An intervention if you like. At the other end at the. In I think we're GONNA see more and more technology coming in because as those basic functions that are. Being, carried out by junior people or or paralegals or things like that are the ones which are going to be increasing, automating creasing. I'm. We will replace the humans and just let machines do that because there's no point in wasting human resources on that whether that means we need fuel or more lawyers That's an open question I think it will that we need different kinds of lawyers We will need Roy Moore to logically aware much more sophisticated. They don't it's be programmers or odors or anything like that, but they need to have a quite a a a a strong understanding and gross what's going on in technology in that way if you like so. Yeah. We can definitely see an. Yeah, so I, think you mentioned the so from a structure perspective in all forum DC law firm sprucing to word. It a group of equity partners. Around it by machine so to speak well, I. Think. I was in that paper or another one I. I'm S-. Forecast. Law. Firms. Being. Distributed decentralized we'll tournaments organizations running on a blockchain with with the various people. into setting when they will no I. Think the law firm is still a very strong and powerful is Shutian, that's not gonNA disappear straight away. But certainly the numbers of partners who control things will shrink. They'll that will get smarter as proportion and yes, they will be surrounded by machines and they surrounded by people who are servicing those machines. Your excellent. Yeah. Thanks for doing this weekend. John really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much. It's been great fun and very

Prof. John Flood, Professor of Law and Society at Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia. - burst 01

Scientific Sense

59:58 min | 3 months ago

Prof. John Flood, Professor of Law and Society at Griffith University, Brisbane, Australia. - burst 01

"Welcome to the site of accents podcast. Where we explore emerging ideas from signs, policy economics, and technology. My name is Gill eappen. We talk with woods, leading academics and experts about the recent research or generally of topical interest. Scientific senses at unstructured conversation with no agenda or preparation. Be Color a wide variety of domains red new discoveries are made. and New Technologies are developed on a daily basis. The most interested in how new ideas affect society. And help educate the world how to pursue rewarding and enjoyable life rooted in signs logic at inflammation. V seek knowledge without boundaries or constraints and provide unaided content of conversations bit researchers and leaders who low what they do. A companion blog to this podcast can be found at scientific sense. Dot. com. And displayed guest is available on over a dozen platforms and directly at scientific sense dot net. If you have suggestions for topics, guests at other ideas. Please send up to info at scientific sense. Dot Com. And I can be reached at Gil at eappen. Dot Info. My guests today's facade John. WHO's professor of Law and society at Griffith University in Brisbane Australia. He's also adjunct professor of law at Queensland University of Technology and Research Associated University College Under Center for Blockchain Technologies, he who suggests on the Bloomberg professional globalization of law and the technology in law. But come John. Hello. Thank you. Sure. Yeah. So I want to start with one of your recent people, professions and expertise hog machine learning, and blockchain redesigning the landscape of professional knowledge and organization. In invite you say machine learning has entered the world of the professions. The different impacts automation will have huge impacts on the nature of work and society. Engineering architecture and medicine or early and enthusiastic adopters. Other professions especially law at late you say at in some cases with leptons adopters. could you talk about you know sort of the landscape all? Of Law, profession and. They today in terms of opting these technologies. Certainly Louis interesting because it's a very old profession is. Often considered one of the. Original traditional professions along with medicine and the church. And in a sense law has used different kinds of technology might say I mean does it? Based around writing. And then the printing press and So on yet that. It's always being based on a craft. A skill which the individual person is that enables them to do, whatever is quote if you like and. said, there's never been a lot of room for any kind of automation. Certainly, the has been space for using. A people who are not fully qualified as low as about as paralegals, people like that, who will do a lot of repetitive work document checking and things like that and so on. But what will get into now is the situation where automation through machine learning. There's other kinds of artificial intelligence. is able to start constructing documents example contracts. Check dollop a documents for particular clauses and things like that mature they're up to date and this incense is. Replacing now, the kind of work that noise will do. So I think in some ways more more of of the profession of law is gonNA be subject to automation, but distinction I would many because I think it's quite important here is that A lot of what lawyers do. Is actually quite. Active that that that that the drafting contracts overtime or or they're reviewing documents to some sort or another or they're getting through particular. Negotiation. And so you know a lot of it is the same, but they build up the expertise through doing these same kinds of were over and over again and What we're now finding is that instead of having young lawyers coming in and doing what you might call the grunt work of checking documents and going through discovery applications where he goes through the size boxes of evidence to decide. which are the appropriate documents you want the emails, the invoices order, this sort of stuff that is the kind of work which is lending itself to automation. And, and so that his taking away a lot of the work which is used for trading purposes with young lawyers and is just doing it much quicker. will quickly I mean More efficiently in many ways and probably expensive much much expensive a Lotta. This work is being outsourced to you know legal process outsourcing India or Philippines South Africa places like that. So yeah, that's that's right and so in some ways, the group of lawyers who do the work which requires the skill, the judgment. Is Reducing in some ways. That pool is getting smaller. Yeah Yeah it's it's interesting. The the distinction that you make between automation. And in my job and let's call it decision making right which is you know a lot of work in the business side of this. So for example. in the nineties in large pharmaceutical company So you think about you know rnd. People might think it has really complex selection of programs that design of them, portfolio management, risk management, all those decisions. Genuine companies be say well, senior managers with lots of experience and intuition make those decisions really well right and so that's statement would automatically implied that machines can really do much there. But what we find in the mid nineties says that is systematic analysis of data make those decisions. Don't better. Actually, I've Tom to humans humans. Always seem to make decisions. These are typically bonding the decision. So if you go back and look at it, alternative experiment has not been wrong. So we have no date to say it was a good decision at typically. So human scaffold, fifty percents of making good decisions So do you know just throwing a coin or letting monkey make those decisions so? Yup We found that even complex decision making that humans hold. you know close to their you know kind of domain I'm not necessarily. So we have machines That could do that much better than I. Don't know there's an analog of that in in law I I. Think The may be actually I mean Two three years ago the royal. Society in England decided to arrange a working party on machine learning. One of the things that they put together a a roundtable on machine learning professions resolved to talk about that night and I talked about the history of professions in technology and. and. I think one of the peculiar things that came out to in relation to law is that law. Has always been a sort of on its own. If you think about medicine, for example, medicines always had the teacher hospital institution that sort of straddles the academic quilt and the practice walls and brings those people together and as a result. INCORPORATES loss of, scientific, work. Engineering work as well computing work and things like that. And that's been the first teaching hospital king into existence in in the French revolution in Seventeen eighty-nine. A long history of that. If you look at law, there was nothing equivalent to that whatsoever and there is in fact, actually a big gap between what academy does on what the practitioners in your do so that As a result as before law has come to this a quite late but what we are. Finding I think is that Certainly the management consultancy finding is that because of the nature of a lot of what goes on in legal office a remarkable amount of it can be automated. So what we are getting now is companies setting themselves up to do this automated work. So. We have companies which do nothing but contract our instruction formation sort of company. The typical lawyer would would say to a client Do you WANNA contract classes. Yes I want this for this. And loyal galway draft contract back with it, and then in the con- comes back against as I need another contract, you go through the same process. which is good for the lawyer but not necessarily good kind. What we're finding now is the company's not can think of a few of them that will, in fact, go into the company's show order contracts. Let's see the entire. Corpus of contracts you've got there and they will analyze them. And basically say, all right. We can create a new contract in automated way fairly easily it may need some modification according to special circumstances but on the whole, it's fairly standard and and they can do that INNOVA systematic world meaning the contracts are reviewed that checked. If they're going to expire marketing, you want an unable just the system will cope with that if you're. Yeah. So yeah. No No. No so I was just going to say yes. So that the distinction you make, you know in terms education sort of systematic graduate level education that because as you say, it is low in one sense of soft proficient. You say in called professions like made it to text reengineering this team has a strong concern ensuring that expertise applied in the public interest when as low little bit different from from bad and economics in some sense sort of in the same same vein we have now made economics at really odd. of mathematics you know north of analytics there. Whether they are actually useful from policy making perspective is left to debate but at least it has been an attempt to make this make economic video hard. So so I don't know A. Fascination has been in in law I very much that will happen in law. Oh there things are beginning to happen I mean let me just boob. At. One example I learned in that workshop that I mentioned the Royal Society held. With somebody from the engineering profession talking about. The difference in skills between people who above forty I'm below forty he said. If he he was about Forty Years Austin design an aeroplane, takeout pen and paper Pencil, and paper and. I don't know anyone under forty could do that would know how to do that go onto a computer program undecided there. So you can see that the incorporation of technology into the academy through to the actual. Occupation. Than phones and things is is already a standard and they're in law. It isn't law. As you said, it's still very much a soft skill although I will argue that there is a difference between the way nor is viewed in different parts of the world. So in the United States A law is I think more tilted towards the sciences. So low in economics is one of the big things in the. US. So you got a lot of people working in the of lower economics who might go onto antitrust work no competition work and things like that which across a lot of economics, mathematics and Statistics and so on. In, say a Europe Australia and so on. Law is more allied towards the humanities. And the classics. So it doesn't have that kind of scientific underpinning in that way. So anything that's going to change in these parts if you like is going to be something that's going to be imported from outside. And is going to have a very dramatic impact when whether it does An and I think that's yet to happen. I don't think there's been sort of Cambrian explosion. If you like in in law, the will be one I'm sure but but law has an advantage over engineering economics or the other areas you might. That's With the nature of the rule of law and absent justice is since law as a a way of ordering society is absolutely crucial to everything else. Then, Law and lawyers will say will look you know we have a special status here is different amid leave engineer. We certainly want to make sure bridges stay up. We don't want down but we can design different kinds of bridges. We can design different kinds of legal bills, but they're also the fundamental rules If you want to you know if you're an engineering company and you want to build a bridge in a different country, you're going to have to do it on the basis of the legal rules, which will be just vise by the lawyers according to the country's there in so on. So in in that was what? I might put in a special category if you live. Yea. Yea. Let me let me push NBA John. So. The. The conference that you mentioned you know the Internet is under forty and engineers at. So so one could argue you know from an engineering perspective could argue e- It sexually dangerous. To not use machines to build aircraft the goes you know all the technology that cap today actually help us make the trap lot safer. granted. If you sit down with a blank sheet of paper and Pencil, you might get the principal right. But, but the technology has advanced so much that you really have to use. Technology to do so in some sense, engineering is pushed back. that. I argue this myself then they were naive engineering school. I had a V exposed at my daughter bent to school. She used the same physics book. Twenty, five. meter. I argue that that is sort of backward because data speed no need for an engineer to really learn Newtonian physics anymore because it is prescriptive, it's deterministic can make machines, learn it very quickly and so why spend all? Right. So so then you know if you think about the the law field. I wonder if there is a senior argument that is to say Dan and tape really good lawyer casts lot of intuitions dot expedients to crap something Contract or a discourse, but then maybe the machine scan actually do it even better We haven't really tested that hypothesis yet. Right be almost have this idea that humans are always dominant. Or machines but that the not be true as technology lancers. So what do you think about that in the in the? It's a very important point actually because the. American bosses. being modifying its ethical rules recently to say that lawyers have a duty and obligation to keep up to date with technology. So we already know the technology is now a an important part and I have to say when when I say the word technology, I mean this at all kinds of levels from what you can do with Microsoft word for example, it strays plug ins all the way up to artificial intelligence IBM, Watson, or something like that So that if if lawyers become. A. Uses of technology whether this small firms or big firms or what have you a under the Aba now they they actually have an obligation to make sure that they are up to date. They can't just say we didn't know what we were doing. So I think in that respect, there is a there was a move. The other move that is taking place is actually the push from from the clients. Now, this you have to look into ways one is with corporate clients. The corporation seen US lawyers have to use noise if you'd like want their work done. PHILOS- money on Chiba they wanted to more efficiently They don't want the best piece of work every time they want something that works and they want officiant. UTA A and so on. So it was interesting I think a few years ago. The General Counsel Cisco. Actually made a speech. Saying that he expected his. Lawyers Law firms who worked for the company to be reducing their fees year on year. Now, that's the opposite of what lawyers normally do, which is to raise them year on year. So say that that's one push which is. Very profound push now, coming from the client himselves who are using the beginning to use their procurement departments in in the companies and things like that to help purchase legal services the other aspects which is just as important in this is if you look at the role of lawyers and individuals. So if you is what access to to legal services, it's expensive lawyers are not cheap they charge our money We don't know how to judge the quality of their work and so on. because. There was a credence which we just know that So. On this is where technology can begin to step in and provide services which are. Efficient and often quite. what very well for the individual saying that this. Technology can be seen to be improving access to justice a Lotta people. Yeah. Yeah yes. I want to come back to this. John. I think this is a very important point. So bent on put has a lot of uncertainty. Uncertainty maybe not not the right term, but it's called deterministic. It shows beatty ability and so the determination of quality it's not as easy as hard media India nearing or. Right business economics legal all sorts of well foreign that category and the application of technology sort of a different different meaning there but I want to touch on one of the things that you say in the paper, and that is you mentioned this before and that's about training training the next generation. So you savior regulating bodies professions are involved in the collection and reproduction of knowledge intended to be used by the entire body professionals, and so there was an expectation here that you know seeing it professionals. Is Providing the wisdom that knowledge mission to train the next generation now in a technology driven. regime. discuss vacations right. Our expert is going to be a computer engineer in the future. And so so how does that work from from cleaning and knowledge Asian will I think this is This is a crucial issue in it's one which the profession hasn't. Really. Got To grips with yet I think because you think of technology in terms of Predictive analytics a document review and things like this most law schools are not preparing students for this they may be a a a a causal to on some aspect of technology, but it's not something which lawyers themselves are learning. So I think what is going to happen is we're going to find a blending of skills occurring. So law firms will be sense having to bring in a range of technologists who perhaps have. A scales a straddle, both sides of the lines, the lawyers like this too I think I think we're going to find an avangard Who will begin to develop skills that allow them to talk to both sides of the line, the tech people and? Below people if you likes and there will be people who will acquire develop these skills as well but that's that's still some way down the line I didn't think we're anywhere near there yet, and part of the reason for that I think is that you know law is still a very highly regulated profession and and the regulators themselves are in the same situation they are unsure about what is going to happen and they also feel they have an obligation to. Not only ensure that. Customers clients and consumers are protected but in some ways, the profession is protected to if you like so. You know it's it's a it's a fine balancing. There I. Think. It's a fight balancing act and you'd say if the changing changing things. So going back, you know you care as an individual eighteen status of expert. Some form of encapsulation of knowledge and analysis occurs enabling professional experts, derived diagnoses, decisions, and conclusion wrapped late. and you make some distinctions. Type of learning that. Human? Beings. That the distinction between doing drive and become a gift and laster Yes yes. Yes I think that's important. So the the the the principle behind this is that Individuals can acquire a lot of knowledge in in various areas. So as I say learning how to drive a car, you learn how to change gear you though with the speeds. Braking different rates, conditions, and things like that. So. If you WANNA take that further and become a formula one drive or something like that. Then you have to undergo a very different kind of training and that kind of thing becomes a lot more collective rather than individual because you start to you're you're going to be in a group that is gonna be doing a particular kind of our driving. If you like everybody in the group has to understand what each other is doing that group, you can't have people going right a racetrack at two hundred miles an hour or thinking individually feel like they have to have a collective consciousness. About. How to drive in that situation? That's nothing like how? You and I might drive. I'm not saying we bad drivers just saying spreading very different. So I think professional work is not. That different from this in a way. So once you you can go through school and you can do your law degree and you can learn your low. We can learn you engineering's this applies to or professions really. But in order to become a professional in order to become somebody who can operate function within that. Group if you like you then have yourself have to develop collective consciousness and and one way of thinking about it is that we we can kind of tacit knowledge. This assorted knowledge you learn on the job from people, which is not always articulated in a precise formulate kind way but it's something you pick up from the way. Somebody does something you just recognize aw that that's how they've done that might not be. Written down anywhere or anything like that. But you know that's different from now exiting differently from the way that wise doing I think X.'s doing it better I and you and you just, and you can absorb that. That's what I mean by this kind of tacit knowledge and that comes about from the professional context. As how the professional context develops becomes absolutely crucial to how you introduce new ways of doing things new my daddy's new skills new outlooks if you like and I. Think this is where we're on the cost of of this beginning to develop I mean we we know it's got to be done quite how it's going to be done. is yet to be. So. So let me make a statement John and I want I want your reaction to it so eat in hard sciences eight years against again medicine. Expertise has about a consistent happy of remorse. Whereas enor- economics and business in general, let's say expertise is not about the ability to apply rules but to deal with. and at and if that is true, it has lot of implications rate. It has implications as to how we might divide work. Between. And machine in the future. And the skills that universities need to impart on on on new graduates are also quite different. So I always argued in the business. engineering contexts that universities having changed the dog they get mentioned before they're using the same. Using the same. Out Thirty four years without asking the question are those skills relevant, anymore or more importantly watch. Really relevant for a human being in the future rate. do you agree with that that expertise assert more about dealing exceptions apply? Putting it actually. I. I can see the logic behind what you. Saying I think what distinguishes? A good professional whether it's a good engineer good architect or good lawyer or doctor is is somebody who has a certain? This may sound strange but it's the. Imagination. Creativity. about. Kind of flare that allows them to function on the nausea they they've got and developed over the years and the experience. Gathered from Nova pitching what they'd be doing over the years and so on, and it allows them to see around things in ways which they perhaps would. I can give you an example if you like a law. So I'm in in Germany and some other countries. For example, there's a particular way of bundling together mortgage securities I I won't go to detail about this, but this statute that enables you do it. And then you can sell these securities and get money. In certain countries, the UK, the US, and so on. This, NICI. So in a sense to put this kind of a a deal together it. Couldn't be done if you live. So a bank came to one of the large English law firms and said, look we wanted we want to replicate this in in the UK, want to set a market this we're not the statues off there. What can you do and what was interesting was that the law firm then went back to first principles lawyers who were looking at this went back I suppose they looked at some vape basic areas of law matter your trust. And contract from what have you? I'm from that they constructed elite supplement that looked very much like the one in Germany, but without stat sheet and they tested it and it worked. Out To be credibly successful. So much so that the German government started German legal profession started to complain because they said. You can only do this by statute and these we find a way of doing it three. I suppose using law and there it is an they were vowed shops by but that was a particular example if you like of of what you were talking about, they took the exceptions they went back to first principles and said you know or How would we get? This is where we gotta get to, and this is a way right at the beginning what are the steps we need to take and and? And that's what a good loyal will do if you. Right right? Yeah. So that's very important point. So you in your paper dawn as the DREYFUSS and rice note that the proficient performer immersed in the world of skillful activities sees what needs to be done. But decides how to do it. So as we move into a and other technologies, I think it's important point it is. Right from Dad benefactor culture we have been using humans as you mentioned before in lots of with meted activities big not designed for humans I would I would contend enjoy doing things over and over again, and if you had thought of doing that, yeah, because they have to do it for living right and so so we should be moving to word It would where anything that is with pita on delegated to the machine at automation in the bottom of that and Appealed autonation you can have intelligent automation you can have you know reinforcement learning those types of things you have some aspects of intelligence into the into the two. And deploy humans Don't Miss. They're really good at in some case. I'm. So you know we've been studying the green for ages be our no close. It feels to understand mother. Heck it does You know it's not neat learning it. Oh, BBC of. thirty years ago as see that person again, you could see you could you could have a feeling. Then you've seen that before and and what the brain has done actually not only as he that pattern but also age that matter intuitively for thirty years and say, yes, that face I, guess before. and. So there are some superpowers the brain has reaped have been applying the all all. So for a technology might allow. Look I. Think Technology will allow us to incredibly complex things without having to think about too much I. Mean if you look at the way a port functions, for example, any major port these days they've got millions of containers and ships going through them all the time. So there's a lot of paper going through the you those charter parties, bills of lading guarantees. So the lot of legal work that's being done it, it's all quite standard stuff. I mean everybody. KNOWS, what needs to be done and so on. Now, some people are beginning to think while the best way to handle a port if you like I for everybody should know is to put everything that's going on in the poor into a blockchain so that you can see the whole supply chain. You see when something comes in, you can determine when the goods are being offloaded. When they're being shipped, you can stop making the payments as a result of the. Operation of the smart contracts if you like, and the whole thing would be just one quite seamless. In some ways without that much human intervention really just need oversight Some bits of coordination so on. But at the moment is still a a lot of humans are vote in that shipping people, law people, all sorts of things which is. I think insane. That's a waste of resources. We know that there are people who have all kinds of problems that require that creative flair she like as so why waste money on the routine stuff when you could develop skills to the the real need if you like in that way? Yeah Yeah. So I, want that some that bit that John Blockchain, for example, as you mentioned. So so one reason especially in the professions like law and business humans have an advantage justice dimension of trust. and you know at least our generation we don't really. At eighty level, right. So so having that. Human human touch is still extremely important for us. Now, technologies like Blockchain, for example, actually allows that trust to be tensely decoupled, right? Yeah, and I think I think you're right. Look I. Think I mean one of the reasons we make contracts is because We, don't trust each other. So we we devised these documents with all the conditions in them. Something goes wrong. This is what will happen things like that and so on. What are the interesting things? You know people really rely on contracts are met you. You draw up a contract. And the to business people stick him in the drawer I never look at again less something really really fundamental goes wrong but they know sumit doesn't that never look at that again. So you say value of the contract, what did it actually do if you look at some of the Asian countries say like Taiwan or parts of China, you have a assistant coach Guanxi, which is where people developed effective relationships by knowing each other over a period of time around business that allows them to develop trust it. So You know there are different ways of of handling trust, but we we seem to spend a lot of time on trying to minimize something You know which we don't really do a lot of if you like. So I think one of the advantages of of blockchain is that it just it removes a lot of this from from the equation if there's certain things you know that can happen. as a result off if this thing that systems. Lead happened And you know. As, long as you've got oversight and you can see what's going on than. You don't need to be too concerned about it. It will just do what it needs to do in that way and So. Again. That's still very much in the early stages, but we are seeing situations where supply chains A shipping goods from one country to another can actually be done under smart contracts through a blockchain. Technology if you live. That that is now happening I associate goodful dealing with things like gum counterfeiting if you're. Producing. Particular high-quality could site move our phones or particular pharmaceutical products and so on you know it's one way of guaranteeing the quality of the product is you couldn't I say look you can examine the whole supply chain or the data is there. And you know his Eq- code look at it and you get the whole thing going all the way back The. Again, issues around that if you're dealing with the digital. Is Much easier once you start dealing with physical products then you have. A question of how do you get that first initial digitization of the physical if you'd like to goes on so though some people I know here in Australia who? Run A company called Beef Ledger, which is trying to export beef straight beef to China using the blockchain supply chain, which will. Guarantee the security, and the quality of the goods to the Chinese consumer APP because having problems with this before. But I will tell you now do doing something like that does require that the people you are dealing with. You're going to set this up with You have to have a trusting relationship with you before you can set up a technology that will do away with the So we're still in that. That's really early days. I think another a lot of time way to go right Yeah, but the technology works it. Clean potential one could argue contracts exist because they probably known performance if you have a technology that drives that probably the of non-performance zero, then you can actually get rid of for contract. Yeah limit. It is. Not. Goes back to that earlier point I made that. Most most contracts are fairly standard. You know a routine things they're there to. Record a series of transactions payments that have gone on between people without the to do much. If you like you know once you you're you're doing the business, the contract just kind of records that in perpetuity. So the small contract just takes that into a different area and an an actually does the whole implementation and execution without people to be involved in that too much and there's something goes wrong. But if it if it all goes right then back it is done you need to you don't you think about it Right. Yeah. Hasn't been jumping to another are forthcoming people globalization law at. A time of crisis in the? Global Lawyer and so in the say Nikolai Condom Nieve a Russian economists in the nineteen thirties believed the worst economy operates long sixty year cycles Then he called K. Braves. And you safeguarding coronavirus analysis, the fifth psycho young's from nineteen eighty to twenty thirty. It's you save twenty, nineteen forthcoming John You might have. I think so I think say because I, tell you off the what's happening this year I thought my good I couldn't My God. I was just. Owners because you know a contract device these waves up into into what he calls four seasons spring summer or winter at, and we're in the winter off this fifth cycle if you like this is. All the bad stuff happens and he's news war. Famine Disease I think wait a minute that sounds Yes yes. That's exactly right. A. But one of the interesting things about contractors was that you know he he a because he's A. Solid economists are installing a dip executed. By the way you know he he got fed up ninety that was the end of Nikolai unfortunately but he. He said instead of know if you like the ownership of the means of production are being the determinate for changeover from system system, he said it's it's technology and and that the technology will drive you out of the downswing of the last cycle into the upswing of the new cycle, and and the way that works is the win. You're in this kind of winter period because of the kind of economic. Gloom pervades if you like people tend to hold back in subsurface vestment in terms of technological innovation of what have you and so a lot of energy resources, resources, money capital if you like builds up to a second point when people say we're GONNA go for this is this is it? And that's when if you like technology comes to the fall on, really drives it forward. So from that perspective, what he's saying is that you know come right about twenty thirty. If. Things are going slowly now regarding technology they're going to speed up. In. This period and that's when it will. You know really also take take off and people have looked back over our preceding cycles and they've you know it works if you like not just their. Fantasy theory there are also the people who do Cleo dynamics in history these the quantitative historians and they've done a similar kind of analysis of historical periods and said, yeah, you know there are all these citrical. Processes that take place even revolutions occur and big upset occurs and what have you and and. One of their Perspectives which I find quite interesting is that they say one of the reasons for revolutions come about is caused a lease beginning to compete with each other and and an an I look at say trump in in America and I look at the Democrats and I I I would say Modine, India I look she in China and different groups of elites who are engaged really profound struggle for the future of their countries if you live. Out which again is leading to this kind of potential eruption of activity and a new ways of doing things. Yeah. It makes a lot of intuitive sense gone. So one way to think about this also. There are a lot of excesses. So innovating go good their excesses in the system people to believe that invincible they changed assumptions about. because they don't see any. and. Financial markets to right. So these cycles and real real mass that uniquely talking about you can see the. Happening in the financial markets more clearly. But what he's saying is that he happens mortgage and you ask in this paper in two thousand, nineteen for in many ways go. Crystallization off the settling ketone economic forces lost throat ear Kublai doomed as populous. Separates nationalism and lead clients and I think they have that we have probably the answer to that. But you see I think. One of the points I was trying to make an in in this paper walls that Global Law. If you like is is, is the a kind of synthesis off chaos? How do we bring some kind of order to chaos now once you start seeing the undermining? Of his global institutions, you see trump was withdrawn from the W. H. O.. He's he's are criticized NATO he he won't have the do with the International, Criminal Court and so we've got this kind of real life tension now between a an international legal order that's being built up since the Second World War both Ekit economic and legal order is Global And so we can't just a radical globalization I mean even even with covert, we can't eradicate mobilize ation we've got to. Handle covert the Kobe pandemic on a global basis. Otherwise, we'll. We're lost it retreats to a national. Approach is not gonNA. Work? We'll be defeated in that race is going to be global. Might. Be One of my questions in in paper was will who are the people who are going to be doing this? Kind of bringing the the order to chaos if you like and that made argument that it's got to be the global lawyer. And this is a person who not only understand their national legal system but also able to communicate with lawyers and officials. From around the world if you like. To be able to develop a kind of common. Language common discourse that enables them to stop putting these things together are, and it's not just a simple massa of saying mathematically, it works this way or not. It requires the kind of pulling together of people, but it requires that sort of common understanding which. Comes out of what I was saying about this idea of testing knowledge you know as you got this kind of professional consciousness you know how people ought to behave and how they will interact with you, and then that enables you to be out of bizarre to predict how you can do things and so on and so on. That basis I think we can operate kind of global order. It had a a below the institutional level if you're not kind of private. As opposed to the public according and that will put three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah you know I the limit John I don't know if you think this way I limit one could as. Want to stay need for. Countries what does the need for legal system differentials? We set this up with the premise that it's easier to manage small chunks. one could also argue with Edmund Affect. -nology that you don't need to segment this debate that we have done. which might make these types of issues you know. See where you're coming from and I'm going to say yes or no? Yes, I think the home range of of questions that can be handled by the technology the ones we got pay I don't chain, etc. I don't I didn't see any issues there but there are a lot of decisions that needs to be made a book in terms of putting things together and resolve disputes that can only function at a human level because it's not. These are not decisions that are simple binary decisions. If you'd like, it's yes or no it's it's often a lot more nuance than complex about I mean, one of the resources in the World Kiva Zero System, the world amendment which is being fought over if you like is water, a water is probably one of the most valuable resources anywhere and it's you often find that rivers and things like that sort of flow between countries, they form borders. And and you are you know people if you look at the Nile, ESL start stopping in Sudan throwaway down to the Mediterranean. So he goes to countries all three countries, east European and then into Egypt's and so unwell well, who has the right to put it dime at a particular place and things like that all of that has to be cooled in act. You see a not going to be done at a human level that that's what caused the skills in negotiation judgment interpretation understanding if you like of the other people, no machine can do that I got. Yes before we conclude, I want to touch on one other thing So in the paper, you say as technology and culture intersect more and more. Ethical conundrums will intensify these raising questions about the rights and obligations of robots. And go beyond as moves. Three laws of robotics in two issues of rights of all moon. Algorithm, stem serves. So this is this is an area that be Kevin babies even even really form some notions allowed rights of all modes at rights of a are. Sai, gets more sophisticated. Yes. Yes. I do. I, mean I think this is one of the issues we already know some of the problems with algorithms and and you know can we can be are they transplanted from you see what's going on the ethical issues around the construction and implementation of algorithms and things like that. But I I I think looking into the future we all going to rely on things like robots. And various kinds of machines so much more so that if you look at a country like Japan, which is a a an aging population such that it doesn't have sufficient younger people to look after the people who need looking often. So machines, I'll be part of that, and that means people will stop forming real relationships with machines and and so that's when I would say. Okay. So let's think about how we View a potential rights of machine that we give. We give rise to humans. Yes. We know that we give rights to animals. Now we've also given rights to viz in forest in some countries as well as so machines I think our. Next logical step you know do we do we treat them with respect Let me give you one. Very classic example yet the production of. Robots for sex if you like is a major industry at the moment, some manufacturers say they want to program them say that people can act out rape fantasies will do we want that I? Mean you know should we be at first of all? You know? We should be having people behave in this particular kind of way, but even an uncertain if you do it against another human being, you'll be punished for it and you say we'll a machine is a piece of property you should be you should be doing that but I'm getting to think that maybe a machines should be treated with dignity say that we are treat ourselves with. Dixie. This a kind of reflexive situation here what we? Do to machines we do to each other, and they may again due to US depending on how they evolve and and move forward in that way is a very contentious issue. A lot of people would reject that right out of hand I agree I think we've got to stop thinking about stop dining forward because I. think we're going to at some point again. I. Don't know when. But at some point we will be having to deal with that. It's a it's a very important point. Joan. So if I understand you correctly, you know that the rights to animals the rights to inanimate. INANIMATE things like Lubers The recent those exist is because of its effects on humans and can see video a clear link in the future we would see a very clear link between a algorithms and robots ended affects on human. So this is not me You know each not fantasy in the sense that yeah, robots should have rights, but rather it's a more conceptual question. Any fraud did not have rights each going to cabin negative I I think that's absolutely true. I mean just to highlight that if you like this firm called Boston Dynamics that produces. Robots and they produced these videos of these. Now, these robots are resistant being pushed over and things like that, and it was quite interesting because a lot of people say all you can't treat them in this way. This is awful and so what I mean that that's the answer for more fighting to to the extreme extent. But it I think you know on the basis what you're saying, you know how we Oakland. Hold human beings accountable to each other in an increasingly complex world machines have become part of that. We can't just have them all sitting on the edge as though they're not part of who we are, what we are and how we do things. Right. So. Incursion Johnny fuel sort of look forward five years. At. The intersection of law and technology. But you think people see sort of the biggest. I. Think you'll see it two wins. On the you know for the individual The individual, you're going to see a lot of them just interacting. With artificial Tennessee, say lost questions about what my rights for this how do I deal with a tendency agreement? How do I complain against a producer company or something like that or that's going to be automated? is fairly straightforward to do and and it will only need A. Minimal. Amount of human inside of. An intervention if you like. At the other end at the. In I think we're GONNA see more and more technology coming in because as those basic functions that are. Being, carried out by junior people or or paralegals or things like that are the ones which are going to be increasing, automating creasing. I'm. We will replace the humans and just let machines do that because there's no point in wasting human resources on that whether that means we need fuel or more lawyers That's an open question I think it will that we need different kinds of lawyers We will need Roy Moore to logically aware much more sophisticated. They don't it's be programmers or odors or anything like that, but they need to have a quite a a a a strong understanding and gross what's going on in technology in that way if you like so. Yeah. We can definitely see an. Yeah, so I, think you mentioned the so from a structure perspective in all forum DC law firm sprucing to word. It a group of equity partners. Around it by machine so to speak well, I. Think. I was in that paper or another one I. I'm S-. Forecast. Law. Firms. Being. Distributed decentralized we'll tournaments organizations running on a blockchain with with the various people. into setting when they will no I. Think the law firm is still a very strong and powerful is Shutian, that's not gonNA disappear straight away. But certainly the numbers of partners who control things will shrink. They'll that will get smarter as proportion and yes, they will be surrounded by machines and they surrounded by people who are servicing those machines. Your excellent. Yeah. Thanks for doing this weekend. John really enjoyed the conversation. Thank you very much. It's been great fun and very

Blockchain John Gill Eappen Eappen Queensland University Of Techn Blockchain Technologies Australia Griffith University India United States German Government Innova Bloomberg Inflammation Royal Society Brisbane John Blockchain Chiba
"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

Scientific Sense

03:13 min | 3 months ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

"Enabling professional experts, derived diagnoses, decisions, and conclusion wrapped late. and you make some distinctions. Type of learning that. Human? Beings. That the distinction between doing drive and become a gift and laster Yes yes. Yes I think that's important. So the the the the principle behind this is that Individuals can acquire a lot of knowledge in in various areas. So as I say learning how to drive a car, you learn how to change gear you though with the speeds. Braking different rates, conditions, and things like that. So. If you WANNA take that further and become a formula one drive or something like that. Then you have to undergo a very different kind of training and that kind of thing becomes a lot more collective rather than individual because you start to you're you're going to be in a group that is gonna be doing a particular kind of our driving. If you like everybody in the group has to understand what each other is doing that group, you can't have people going right a racetrack at two hundred miles an hour or thinking individually feel like they have to have a collective consciousness. About. How to drive in that situation? That's nothing like how? You and I might drive. I'm not saying we bad drivers just saying spreading very different. So I think professional work is not. That different from this in a way. So once you you can go through school and you can do your law degree and you can learn your low. We can learn you engineering's this applies to or professions really. But in order to become a professional in order to become somebody who can operate function within that. Group if you like you then have yourself have to develop collective consciousness and and one way of thinking about it is that we we can kind of tacit knowledge. This assorted knowledge you learn on the job from people, which is not always articulated in a precise formulate kind way but it's something you pick up from the way. Somebody does something you just recognize aw that that's how they've done that might not be. Written down anywhere or anything like that. But you know that's different from now exiting differently from the way that wise doing I think X.'s doing it better I and you and you just, and you can absorb that. That's what I mean by this kind of tacit knowledge and that comes about from the professional context. As how the professional context develops becomes absolutely crucial to how you introduce new ways of doing things new my daddy's new skills new outlooks if you like and I. Think this is where we're on the cost of of this beginning to develop I mean we we know it's got to be done quite how it's going to be done..

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

Scientific Sense

01:35 min | 3 months ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on Scientific Sense

"Welcome to the site of accents podcast. Where we.

The Future of Podcasting with Podnews Editor James Cridland

The Practical Futurist Podcast

04:54 min | 7 months ago

The Future of Podcasting with Podnews Editor James Cridland

"Today's guest all the way from Brisbane. Australia is James. Cridland the editor of the leading source of podcast. News Hug News Dot Knit. Without the twentieth easily radio and online business in two thousand five James help loans, the first daily podcast from UK, radio station and the world's first regius station streaming. APP, he offers a truly international view is a bridge leading Austrailia witnessed companies across the world including North America. He's also a keynote speaker and consultant, and wrote his first podcast RSS, fading January two thousand five, and also launched the first live radio streaming at from eyeball finds in Cya. Importantly, he's worked in the audio industry since nineteen eighty nine. Welcome, James, thank you so much for having me what we only spoke last week. Your against on the podcast festival, a joint production with podcasting buddies mean to doll and safety. That was a law show with you. Questions thrown in a producer might. this week prerecord so will move a bit slow pice if that's okay, Hanna absolutely fine I'm glad you said that. Look I feel like running exchange program. You're a Briton stride. Yet I'm in London. What's it like in strider? The moment I hear a lot of the lockdown restrictions eliciting. Yes, Oh, they're beginning to lift him in. We can't so. I'm in Queensland can't go anywhere in Queensland. We're not allowed to leave. Leave our great state, although I state frankly is big enough, so that's all okay, but yeah things are beginning to beginning to relax I'm not quite sure what the latest figures were, but certainly we we've had one case one coronavirus case in the last A. Week or so here in Queensland so you know we're doing. We're doing pretty well rather better than you guys think, and you'll side pod news dot net which I encourage one to sign up for the daily newsletter. Have you seen increasing traffic is forecasting immuno thriving during this pandemic I mean pain and increase in the amount of people getting it, which is nice and the amount of people. Using it, but I mean obviously. There's been an increase in podcasting as well so actually in May. We saw a new record for the amount of podcasts launch, ninety, six, thousand, five hundred. So you know you can clearly see and yes, some of that is going to be Ju to coronavirus, and the fact that you can launch a podcast of your home and you might. You might be a bit bored or whatever but I think also part of that is just because podcasting is actually growing and quite a lot of those. We're going to launch anyway so you know a tremendous amount of growth there and suddenly podcast hosts of I'm talking to that saying that as as significant increase in the amount of you know in the Mount of people signing up and the amount of support Kohl's that having an everything else which is old boats, said good I. Think so why we're going. Here are the podcasting Stat Guru. but What what number of these podcasts will quote a sort of survive? I mean lots of starting up because people bedrooms when I go back to work and things you think there'll be some on jeopardy, or what sort of half life of a podcast series. Yeah, I think that's going to be interesting, isn't it? I mean quite a lot of podcasts. Don't last particularly long it. It has to be said. And you know that may be bydesign. May Be because people you know, realize that actually producing great audio is quite difficult. And you know and so therefore they can't necessarily work too hard on that I mean if you have a look at the amount of the amounts of active podcasts there while there are one point one million podcasts in apple podcasts, and about half of those are active, so that means that they've published one episode in the Pasta Ninety days so about how for the market about half of them are inactive, and that's I think actually pretty good in terms of you know they longevity of podcasting the that you know? Know half a million still being currently made. You know that said that's quite thing i. think often asked is podcasting the new blogging and you've been around probably as long as I have gone Do you think they blend It's it's not simple to do a great audio show, but you can actually say something happened and get your news thoughts out there, but is podcasting blogging I. Don't think so I mean I. Ingenuity. It's interesting. I, was talking to US talking to Turkish television last night, and you know and they were saying. Is podcasting growing and I think one of the interesting things around focusing. He's been going for fifteen years but it's been nice, slow and steady growth every single year every single year. It's been getting bigger. But what podcasting hasn't Betas is it hasn't been. A My space or a Bibo or vine? Hasn't you know a dramatically? Increased and then all of a sudden. Disappears again.

Australia Queensland Brisbane James Editor United States North America Briton London Consultant UK Producer JU Hanna Mount Of Apple Kohl
Protests worldwide embrace Black Lives Matter movement

MediConnect

00:41 sec | 8 months ago

Protests worldwide embrace Black Lives Matter movement

"Thousands of people rallied across Australia to honor George Floyd and voice their support for the black lives matter movement on Saturday further protests are planned over the weekend in European cities summit defying restrictions imposed by authorities because of the corona virus pandemic the rallies are part of a worldwide wave of solidarity that has also sought to highlight racial discrimination outside the United States in Brisbane Australia organizer say about thirty thousand people gathered forcing police to close down two major streets police in Paris sealed off roads around the U. S. embassy early Saturday in Berlin police said several store windows were smashed overnight and walls were painted with slogans referring to George Floyd's

Australia George Floyd United States Paris Brisbane Australia Berlin
"brisbane australia" Discussed on T.O.F.U. Talks: #OurNewNormal

T.O.F.U. Talks: #OurNewNormal

04:03 min | 9 months ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on T.O.F.U. Talks: #OurNewNormal

"That you're doing i. I'm really big on retains Yang making sure. I'm I'm good balance in my life of as much as you can drain on his ear but yet on June my pilates my hearing girl my exercise forty minutes swimming pool. Who At maybe ten twenty minutes? You know you have my show ate my breakfast well looking at on email. Then it's really. Why have a cop now? Albreicht more lunch meaning working until ninety seven or sorry on then. What like puzzle bag two or three Al Wappler some of my reality TV sharing that I just honestly not handle too much might like to like really heavy so teixeira hardline that flint mining heavy on the stuff of what reality Into out. Sorry just doing. I'm watching the circle. The my mental. Sorry that's my lightest section. And then that's it. I'm just repeating on being that same thing every day. The bit monotonous but decide a unique break. But I have three silence to do when my proposal is just and I'm very good at like this is what have to do this way. Convinced to Jerry. Avoid being good okay. This is my major thing to do today. pay in smaller. Think so I'm being. I'm very good at for kissing of thumb on ninety maple but I'm finding that Dart learn very will line have adhd or something like that they just the farthest and they get a really odd for them but honestly still stung. Just the same thing Mr Home. Not Missing the Martha's or not having my rations thoughts that was really been so long and just a discounting to the smaller full on him but young getting like my pilates. Yoga softening really. Just that helps. Because I'm going to be something physical if I'm doing the morning. That helps you help up especially in the united. Someone anxious depressed on onsite about everything I realized suggests getting invent help to yeah. I've I've had a few friends actually here Two friends that have been struggled in the beginning because like they suddenly weren't able to go to the gym I'm one of my friends is basically been like altering his like jogging session based on like okay. Yesterday there were a few people out so now I'm going to have to go even earlier or whatever I'm just because he finds it has been helpful for him But yeah I know most of the stuff I've read so far. The routine is definitely a big part of it. Like I said like I'm really bad at it. I always have been but it hasn't been a big shift for me because I'm still working from home but I know like my sister is now suddenly working from home. And I think she's been finding it. Sorta strange and I think our cats are too. I've got a Lotta pictures of her cats late breaking out. I think yeah I think a lot of animals now are like what the hell is like. I'm glad that you're here. But you're ruining my routine like I'm supposed to be on your bed sleeping right now but now you go for a walk again. We've got to bodied soil struggles on the show. Just come along say related animal live. I will need you just tonight. Ten minutes in the morning huddle on Amazon of Masonic talented. My Dad's really NASA dislike needle until like really appreciate the legal thing not very..

Mr Home Yang adhd Al Wappler NASA Amazon teixeira Jerry
"brisbane australia" Discussed on T.O.F.U. Talks: #OurNewNormal

T.O.F.U. Talks: #OurNewNormal

04:11 min | 9 months ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on T.O.F.U. Talks: #OurNewNormal

"Kasan accepting anyone anywhere including in clean honest things as well so pig amount even once maple. So we'll just be taken out to the The program if that happens honestly thought to because then gain like thirty plus hours about the time and Energy Management. So a problem for me. Yeah so so you mentioned what was July you said for the schools like is that is that where it standing now like. They're not really gonNA. Is that like all? Schools are just university level or sitting on. Okay try miss. Sorry I'm halfway through trimester. Want it then extended day on the break. We had a month right in between Boston. Second adding another wait to Sorry yeah a lot of his stuff will Roundabout Lake wanted July ends. I think if like lower prices are despite being a friend from New York on my fine only in La today now for me inside walk. But yeah that I think a Lotta people saying to me by the Tumult Fox just allowing kids to back to slow. Sorry that's interesting okay. It's it's kind of funny because like here When it's SORTA I hit like we were kind of on the same. I mean it hit it. Hit China I for sure but like it was definitely on our radar around that same time Because I mean part of Vietnam Sherzer border. There's a lot of like back and forth but both Vietnam and China were pretty much. I can't remember if it was just like the tailend or in the middle of the New Year and so like in Vietnam for some people like they're off for weeks in some cases even like months so serious deal like everyone goes back home. Cities like Saigon basically empty getting a flight or a bus or train like useless Just everything so basically when it Kinda hit they just extended Batak holiday for at least a week for the kids and stuff and now it's just continued like right now. I don't think I I don't know what they've said as of yet but I think they're like there's no real talk of bring the school's back in And that's countrywide like. That's not just like I think. Coaching City like Saigon was the first one to say okay. We're shutting schools and then like the rest of the country is just like yeah. That's a good idea. And then when it of started in Canada like they had their first case back in January but are really sorta hit last month and that was like right around March break so again. They just sort of like okay. We'll kind of extend things. But that's also when they were telling everybody who had left for like winter break to go to Florida you know. Costa Rica whatever they were like. Okay everybody get your butts back here. Like things are going to get serious. We had so. The schools had a way early from that holiday. Said that that was into site like a use of in Victoria and then they do that a bit later pointing lunch with the a different. It's definitely heist out now. But yet it was it an acquaintance sort of. I'm didn't get on top of the Nice school thing for a while. Numbers a bit of a problem with the coins on millions of. Oh because of the teachers saying hey we don't go to school here especially let went from some of them. Are Your receipt. State of inside. People are sixteen seventy buying out the no. Let's see the grandkids that you've got teaches the age that a mental by off drums even appeared confused. I personally am really other than not for the older. Teachers are really think on schools. Really important to keep going just a psychological aspect to the kids..

Saigon Vietnam Vietnam Sherzer border China Energy Management Roundabout Lake Boston Florida Costa Rica Batak New York La Canada Victoria
How Do We Fall Asleep?

But Why: A Podcast for Curious Kids

08:20 min | 1 year ago

How Do We Fall Asleep?

"On this podcast. You take questions from kids just like you all over the world and we find answers. We've heard from a lot of you who listen to podcast when you're winding down and getting ready for bed so it makes sense that a lot of you are inspired to send. Us questions about sleep. Flooded people toss and turn on the Risley when new getting into the deep sleep. You'll Buri somehow wakes you up but kicking and it feels like you're really hot. Why's that I don't want to get out of bed in the morning? And when it is nighttime I don't want to go. She read in this episode. We are answering your questions about sleep. Did you know there are doctors who focus specifically on helping kids sleep better? We found one of them at national Jewish health. That's a hospital in Colorado. My Name is Dr Lisa. Meltzer and I am a pediatric sleep psychologist. Which means I work with kids to help them sleep better. Do you feel like you sleep. Pretty well do you think. Oh Yea when the adults in your life tell you it's bedtime or do you struggle to get ready for bed and maybe even struggled to go to sleep or to stay asleep. Dr Meltzer says there are a few things that all of us can do to help us on the path to good sleep. Kids have a very consistent bedtime. Wake time so that means you go to bed about the same time every night. Wake up about the same time every morning. We recommend things like not having any screens in your bedroom. Having a bedroom. That's nice and cool and dark and a place that you like to sleep things like that that are very consistent. What we call sleep health. Let's jump right into some of our questions because we have a lot of kids who have sent us questions about sleep or we're going to start with the basics. Hi My name is and I live in South Orange New Jersey. I'm Steffan and my question is why do people need to sleep? Thank you I love your show similarly from Jordan in Vermont. Why do we really need to go to? Here's one from Maria and five years old and I come from Ottawa Ontario. And my question is why people need to sleep and we also got this from five year old aiden in McKinley Bill California. Why do have to sweep? 'cause I don't will you get and by the White Cornyn Swe We book. That sounds like a lovely way to fall asleep. Aiden so Dr Meltzer. Why do we need to sleep? These are great questions that scientists are spending a lot of time trying to better understand and we don't have one particular answer but we have a lot of different reasons that people think are important for why we sleep. The first one goes back to how humans have developed so there was a time when humans didn't live in houses but lived out in caves. Lived out in the wild and at night when they sleep they were inactive and that made them vulnerable so that predators. The big animals might come and attack them during the night. So you sleep to stay away from those animals that might come and harm in the middle of the night. In other words people were possibly safer tucked up in a cave or shelter sleeping through the night instead of being out and about in the dark when there were big animals with better eyesight also roaming around but being asleep doesn't mean your body shuts down completely. You can still be somewhat alert to danger when you're sleeping you do notice a little bit of the world around you. You can hear certain sounds and things like that and it same thing back in those times where you would want enough of a consciousness enough of awareness of what's going on around you to protect you from those Predator so we call that the evolution of why we sleep so another theory why we sleep is to conserve our energy. I mean we use a lot of energy during the day when you're running and you're playing when you sleep. These things changed the number of calories that you need reduce your temperature drops down your body is basically given a time to rest and relax. So that conserves your energy while you're sleeping and along those lines that allows your body to restore itself so again you're working your muscles all these types of things when you're awake and when you rest it allows them to heal sort of like when you get a cold at night it allows your immune system to fight off those bad germs to help you get better again really interesting one of the first things that happens when you fall asleep is growth hormone is released in growth hormone helps you grow so you literally grow in. Your sleep. So that's another reason. Why Sleep is important. I knew it. I knew I felt taller when I wake up in the morning. Okay maybe it doesn't work that way for adults but that's pretty cool isn't it? You grow while you're sleeping kind of make sleeps on more appealing more like something you might. WanNa do doesn't it? But it's not just your body that gets to rest and recover and rebuild from a busy day of running around. Your brain also need sleep to stay at peak performance. We know that children's brains develop in different ways as they get older so in very young children. The areas around language envision are the parts that are the most active during sleep. Because that's the part of you that's developing during the day and when you're in school aged the parts of your brain that start learning all the different things like math and reading those parts of your brain start to develop when you become a teenager the front part of your brain that helps you with decision making and keeping your mood. Nice calm. That's the part of your brain. That's most active during sleep. So your brain is also developing during sleep. Here's something else you might like to know. Sleep helps you remember what you've learned you take in information while you're awake but it sets in your brain while you're sleeping so if you're studying for say vocabulary test you. WanNa go to sleep after you've because it will help your brain remember. Those words in the morning same goes for all kinds of memories and other things. You might want to be able to repeat like that joke. Your friend told you that you can't wait to tell someone else. Hello My name is Shaun. I live in San Diego. My question is what is sleeping. Get rid of toxins in your brain. Why does sleeping get rid of toxins in the brain? It's a great question so again during the day. Our brain is really busy with everything that we have to do to help us get through the day but when we're sleeping our brain is less busy with all those activities so it has time basically to clean itself out and the toxins build up as we're active and doing all the things that we're doing so sleep gives a time for the brain to relax and sort of take care of itself. I like picturing little cleaners with brooms and stuff inside my brain going in and sweeping and scraping things off. That don't need to be there. That's perfect I mean. It really is a time. It's kind of like when you leave school overnight. They come in and they clean all the rooms and they get ready for the next day. It's the same kind of thing going on in your brain. We have some questions for you. Dr Meltzer about movement and Hello. My name is emily now from Brisbane Australia. Seven and my question is when you sleep. He'll but we're new getting into the deepest sleep your body somehow wakes you up but kicking in feels like you jump really hot what I want to know. So this is something called a hip nick jerk or asleep twitch hip nick jerk sleep twitch. I love that name. Do you ever have a hip. Nick Jerk happen to you. You're just falling asleep and then you feel like you're falling and your body twitches and it wakes you up if you watch babies. They do this all the time when they're falling asleep as you get older you tend to do it a little bit less and there's again multiple reasons why people think this happens. One of the reasons is that as you're falling asleep all of your muscles start to relax and your brain may think oh those muscles relaxing. They must be falling. And it kicks you awake and that causes you to jerk or jump high into the air. It could make maybe even scare you that feeling of

Dr Meltzer Risley Nick Jerk Aiden Dr Lisa Growth Hormone White Cornyn Steffan Colorado Mckinley Bill California South Orange New Jersey San Diego Jordan Maria Vermont Ottawa Ontario Emily Brisbane Australia
Zac Efron Reportedly Hospitalized With Life-Threatening Infection

10 10 WINS 24 Hour News

00:25 sec | 1 year ago

Zac Efron Reportedly Hospitalized With Life-Threatening Infection

"Zac Efron has been released from the hospital in Australia where he was treated for what may have been a typhoid infection last week he was in Papua New Guinea filming a series it's there that doctors think the thirty two year old actor may have been exposed to typhoid or another type of bacteria that cause the infection he had to be airlifted to Brisbane Australia Australian Sunday telegraph reports he spent a few days at a hospital there and was given the all clear to travel home to the U. S. on

Zac Efron Australia Guinea Typhoid Papua Brisbane Sunday Telegraph
"brisbane australia" Discussed on NewsRadio 1080 KRLD

NewsRadio 1080 KRLD

03:28 min | 2 years ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on NewsRadio 1080 KRLD

"It's five thirty with Mike Rogers and Amanda garra. I'm Scott, SAM's. This is the KRLD morning news. Thank you for being with us this morning CBS news update. A new report shows Russia went to great lengths to ensure Donald Trump would be elected in two thousand sixteen CBS. Tom Foty, Washington Post has obtained on incomplete sunup report analyzing data provided by the giants of social media about Russia's this information campaign targeting the two thousand sixteen presidential race research reported by the post seems to echo conclusions by the intelligence community that Russia tried hard to help elect Donald Trump and defeat Hillary Clinton. What it does not implicate? Mr. Trump draft says Facebook, Twitter and YouTube did too little too late to respond to the diss information campaign. CBS news political analyst, Leonard Steinhorn, I think what's going to happen is members of congress and other folks in politics are gonna put far more pressure on the tech company. These to be more transparent and to be able to build firewalls against foreign interference Senate is expected to release the report at noon CBS news update, I'm Deborah Rodriguez. Australian actor Geoffrey Rush is facing new allegations of sexual misconduct is denying claims made to the New York Times by Yale stern one of the stars. From the TV show, orange is the new black stone claims he used a small mirror to spy on her in the shower and sent inappropriate text messages while they work together eight years ago in Australian production, it a bent rush says the allegations are incorrect and taken completely out of context. The sixty seven year old veteran actor is in the middle of a differentiation suit against an Australian newspaper. I've a separate allegations of inappropriate behavior. Scott for CBS, news, Brisbane, Australia. Former first lady Michelle Obama will speak tonight at the American Airlines center part of her book tour, but KRLD. Allen's guy says the tickets are going to cost a lot more than a new book. Michelle Obama's on tour to promote her book becoming she'll speak at the American Airlines center in Dallas tonight. The event has sold out people are listing tickets on stub hub for two hundred dollars in the upper level of the and they're asking for more than seventeen hundred dollars for seats on the floor in front of the stage. Michelle Obama's visiting about two dozen cities in the US, Canada and Europe she'll come back to Texas in February and March with stops in Austin and Houston, Allen sky, NewsRadio ten eighty KRLD city of I go once hundreds of electric scooters office streets today city leaders say without warning or permission the company bird dropped off about two hundred scooters last week at an emergency city council meeting last week, the city made it clear they don't approve and even bird officials say they don't want scooters to be on the streets. If people will be using them. There are currently no ordinances against scooters in Frisco. But city leaders could take a harder. Look at the issue next week bird has until. Eight o'clock this morning to get the scooters out of the city. Police skin Benford had shoot a woman's dogs to save her from an attack especially the woman who's being attacked by those four dogs at her house on king drive near pipeline road. Police arrived. They shot the dogs with non bean bags of a woman is now recovering. The dogs had been turned over to animal control. The Cowboys suffer their first shutout in fifteen years losing to the colts twenty three two zero in a way we needed this..

CBS Michelle Obama Donald Trump American Airlines center Scott Russia Deborah Rodriguez Allen sky KRLD Mike Rogers Washington Post Geoffrey Rush Amanda garra SAM Yale New York Times Leonard Steinhorn colts Frisco Tom Foty
Mississippi senator makes joke about "public hanging"

Wayne Cabot and Paul Murnane

00:32 sec | 2 years ago

Mississippi senator makes joke about "public hanging"

"Was opposing of interest from day one of the investigation, she's accused of inserting needles into strawberries over a workplace grievance. It's a fairly unique investigation. Chief investigator Joan Wacker who says it was a bizarre time consuming case that consumed so many investigators we reached that to. Kanta pats through stri- the fifty year old remains behind bars. She'll face quote, again next week, Scott Maidment for CBS, news, Brisbane Australia.

Joan Wacker Brisbane Australia Investigator Scott Maidment CBS Fifty Year
Death toll rises as earthquake strikes Indonesia

WBBM Programming

03:44 min | 2 years ago

Death toll rises as earthquake strikes Indonesia

"Urban expert says Chicago's minimum wage may be going up but there are a lot of people in especially a lot of people of color falling short of a living. Wage and being left out of. All those jobs moving downtown I'm political editor Craig Delamore. And this week on our at issue program Mary Sue Barrett. Of the. Metropolitan planning council joins. Me for a Frank discussion on the reasons progress. Joblessness and race that's at issue coming up at nine thirty here on NewsRadio. Seven eighty one zero five point, nine FM WBZ news time for forty scientists in Australia say they've. Discovered an, easier way to identify people at risk of suffering a heart attack it's. A telltale sign of a, problem, with, blood flow returning to the heart monitor chest, pain or you, might be feeling a little Todd research professor Bob Graham who says a small group of his colleagues have developed an MRI scan that includes a. Chemical injection that. Helps inform the treating physician there's a dangerous buildup of plaque in, the blood so they do an angiogram they fond of block Australian scientists and app preparing the method for human trials doctor site they'll eventually be able to eat Evine before. Heart attack ever, takes place Scott moment for CBS news Brisbane Australia why, do people live so long in Japan a healthy diet universal healthcare in reliance on public transportation instead of cards are. Helping to fan regularly rank at or near the top of the logic Titi scale a longtime. Record holder A woman has died there. At an old age show for one hundred years old or young WBZ news time four. Forty one last week Facebook's value draw billions of dollars. Due to a general loss of trust, in its use of personal data and the backlash is in, over a British, parliamentary committee found social media firms operate like it's the wild west and warns Britain faces a democratic crisis over misuse of. Personal data with voters targeted with poisonous views it. Says firms like Facebook and. Twitter should be liable for harmful and misleading Curiel and calls for tougher regulation. Also a, class action suits being filed in London against Facebook on behalf of users. Whose data was taken without, their, consent, before the Brexit vote Larry Miller CBS news, London WBZ news, time for forty two car companies are starting to tighten their belts is up for tough times with tariffs pushing up prices of raw. Materials carmakers, are warning of lower Profits ahead at Ford chief financial officer Bob shanks could give you details of, an eleven billion dollar restructuring. That's gonna affect most of our operations what about the impact on jobs there could be impact on jobs. Within that but we'll have to see the three Detroit, carmakers did make a combined four billion in second quarter profits but that was below analysts expectations Jeff Gilbert four CBS news Detroit WBZ. M. news time four. Forty three, the death toll from his strong earthquake that rocked Indonesia's popular tourist island of Lomborg is risen to. Fourteen, with more than one hundred sixty injured the quake damaged more than one thousand homes and was felt in nearby Molly where no damage or. Casualties were reported the, US, Geological Survey says the magnitude six point four quake struck at a depth of seven kilometers or about four point four miles and official from Indonesia's disaster. Mitigation agencies says east Lombard District was the hardest hit with ten, deaths including that of a Malaysian tourist is is the number of casualties could increase his data is being collected from. Other locations on the island at least one hundred, sixty two people are reported injured including sixty seven hospitalized with serious injuries the forecast.

Facebook CBS Mary Sue Barrett WBZ Indonesia United States Lombard District Political Editor Craig Delamore Chicago Detroit London Australia Bob Graham Metropolitan Planning Council Twitter Molly Todd Japan Geological Survey
Facebook suspends U.S. conspiracy theorist Alex Jones

KNX Programming

02:28 min | 2 years ago

Facebook suspends U.S. conspiracy theorist Alex Jones

"Warning it's quite offensive, that, these, companies just dropped off these devices. And, then, said. Okay sorry now we'll talk with you And that's. Why we are where we are today this man in, the industry of course doesn't like the, action feel like you're just trying to punish an industry. That, moves at this, pace is going to be a never ending game of whack a mole over the last few weeks officers here have been. Busy catching people writing the scooters on sidewalks without. A helmet or a driver's. License in Beverly Hills Karen Adams Canucks ten seventy NewsRadio scientists in Australia the. Discovered an, easier way to identify people who face a high risk of heart attacks, it's a telltale sign of, a, problem, with blood flow returning to the heart of just paint or you might be feeling a little taunt research professor Bob Graham who says a small group of his colleagues have developed an MRI scan that includes a chemical injection that helps inform the treating physician there's a dangerous buildup of plaque in the blood so they. Do an angiogram they fond of block Australian scientists and app preparing the bed for human trials doctor. Site they'll eventually be able to eat Evine before heart attack ever takes place, Scott, Maimon, for CBS news Brisbane Australia Facebook's ban controversial radio. Host Alex Jones the site has removed four videos posted, two pages maintained by him and the, info wars site he operates but conspiracy theorists personal profile. Was, banned for thirty, days after it was found to have uploaded four videos published on pages that went against community standards those videos have been. Removed and info wars in Jones pages are close. To being unpublished given recent. Community standards violations according to a Facebook statement YouTube removed four Alex Jones videos. Earlier this, week and said his info wars website faced permanent removal info wars has, not commented Bill Ray cock, CBS, news A, death toll from the northern California wildfires climbed to five with the discovery of a woman and her two great grandchildren man stories coming up at, the top of the hour two o'clock, it's one fifty five traffic and weather together every ten minutes on the five, series will Slater feels like the one on one is not your friend today got a crash in the Cuenca pass northbound, just before you reach Barham boulevard it's two cars one of the, car still blocking the left lane there. And how you jammed from all the way back Silverlake boulevard if you happen to be in the stretch where. You can make your way over the quango used that continue north towards Barham and past backup on that northbound one zero one. Southbound side, no better. Reduced speeds from Sunset Boulevard all, the way to, Glendale boulevard as you're headed into downtown LA northbound one..

Alex Jones Maimon CBS Barham Beverly Hills Facebook Bob Graham Australia LA Bill Ray Brisbane Australia Facebook Professor Karen Adams California Youtube Scott Cuenca Slater Ten Minutes
Archbishop Philip Wilson, Official and Ustralia discussed on WBBM Programming

WBBM Programming

01:36 min | 2 years ago

Archbishop Philip Wilson, Official and Ustralia discussed on WBBM Programming

"Up to now it has used traditional bikes stored in docking stations motivate is now faced with a wave of dacas bikes that can be left on a sidewalk for another customer chris kreider l newsradio on one zero five point nine fm and after appearing before an australian court archbishop philip wilson the most senior catholic official convicted of covering up sex abuse in australia faces a sentence of at least six months by but it'll take over a month to decide where wilson will serve that teramachi bishop philip wilson was sentenced to twelve months jail but the judge suspended the sentence considering instead six months home detention the sixty seven year old was found guilty earlier this year of failing to report to police the abuse of two older boys by pedophile priest the incident occurred in ustralia in the nineteen seventies in handing down the sentence the judge also ordered the archbishop perform community service the metro goes back to court in august as the judge considers legal arguments over the sentencing scoff maimon for cbs news brisbane australia and db am news time four thirty six the fourth of july is coming up so i'm having a few buddies over for a barbecue to watch the fireworks we're going to be grilling and of course having some awesome drinks to get everything i needed i went to total wine and more john drops every time i walk in wine beer cigars all the accessories and decorations i need found me this bubbly that was just a amazing we went to give it a try at the tasting table as soon as i tasted it i knew it was going to be perfect for watching the fireworks i.

Archbishop Philip Wilson Official Ustralia John Chris Kreider Australia Bishop Philip Wilson CBS Brisbane Six Months Sixty Seven Year Twelve Months
Pope Francis meets with energy leaders to warn of climate change

John Williams

02:06 min | 2 years ago

Pope Francis meets with energy leaders to warn of climate change

"In the recall have p dash seven four six on the packaging the department of agriculture is urging consumers to throw the chicken in the trash i'm mike cremedas i we had a biotic hearing device now researchers in australia developing a bionic obstacle device that could help provide site for the visually impaired it's a will i and nine years in the making diff people hearing again let's get some blind people seeing again monash university professor jeffrey rosenfeld the audi was that if a strays developed ovonic hearing device then maybe we could develop a bonus vision device to allow blind people to see a game australian researchers have come up with a wireless device implanted in the brain to help transplant signals from the retina to the brain creating a by kyw that now received the green light for human trials to get under away later this year scott moment for cbs news brisbane australia w w j news time three thirty four the very first bond girl has died case was the first bond girl playing sylvia trench in dr no and in from russia with love case help calm sean connery's nerves so we could deliver what would become doubleo seven's most famous catchphrase james bond jason's voice is not heard in either film as with many of the early bond girls her lines were re recorded by voice over artist a few years ago gatien revealed why the director chose her he said i want you because she is sexy use cases death was announced on her official twitter feed she was ninety larry miller cbs news london university of its kind meeting at the vatican pope francis sat with executives from the oil and energy industries urging them to become leaders on environmental issues pope francis warned the climate change risk destroying humanity called on energie leaders to help the world to convert to clean fuels to avert catastrophe the pope said civilization requires energy but energy use must not destroy civilization southern baptists facing a metoo crisis as.

Jeffrey Rosenfeld Larry Miller Twitter Official Jason James Bond Brisbane CBS Scott Mike Cremedas Professor Australia Department Of Agriculture Pope Francis London University Director Sean Connery Russia
Spoiled prince has a flunkey to squeeze his toothpaste

As It Happens from CBC Radio

01:14 min | 3 years ago

Spoiled prince has a flunkey to squeeze his toothpaste

"If you were born into a life of extreme wealth and extreme privilege you could be forgiven for being a bit out of touch with the lives of us everyday folk but how far out of touch is too far that is a sensually the question raised by an unauthorized biography of prince charles released last month in tom bowers book rebel prince the power passion and defiance of prince charles the heir to the throne is portrayed as petulant whiny and spoiled beyond belief in one anecdote the prince's said to have shrieked at the site of strange plastic film covering his food only to be told by camilla that he was looking at saran wrap and when the prince travels he is said to bring his own mattress with them as well as a personalized white leather toilet seat now that particular personal effect was recently the subject of contentious interview with the prince a low perhaps interview is not the right word in this case when prince charles was at a public event in brisbane australia earlier this week a local radio station cornered him and asked him about it on live radio here's how that sounded.

Prince Charles Camilla Brisbane Tom Bowers Australia
"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

The GaryVee Audio Experience

01:50 min | 3 years ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

"I'm not sure so crushed takata on one of my passengers dodd pot of your crew i was heavily drunk and on drugs and of never really been able to connect with the family involved obviously the reason i don know whether i'm going to stir something for them by writing tell me first of all i had to or you for that answer right and the best part is in allows me to give you a really good piece of advice people are confused intent is an incredibly important part of all this the reason i'm so out there and so the way i am is because i know what my intent is you may not like it at first you may think i'm cocky in douchebag i'm cool with that because i'm going to win in the end like i prefer you all started out not liking me because it's more fun the other way right so brother the fact that you have that intent i'm gonna really try to force you to do this should reach out to them call go ahead what's that great years ago eight them i felt it wasn't oversea respect kid do you think they're on facebook you're not block them because data prison got sent simone conned messages yet so wasn't also blocked them blocked them to just move on with my life i respect how long ago was that two thousand fourteen so look listen if you want to listen there's only one way to move forward it's reconcile the past right so you need to do everything you can and listen you could still talk about your past without mentioning names for a long if anybody's watching carefully up until about six months ago i never really made it as clear that i own nothing of wine library.

takata facebook simone six months
"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

The GaryVee Audio Experience

02:01 min | 3 years ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

"That's built something significant it may seem that it happened fast because they're twenty seven but maybe they've been hustling since they were thirteen in a different way that gave them fourteen years of experience to be a winner in that game and so please please wrap your head around what we're actually doing here and more importantly if you were smart enough to be here today and i mean this the fact that you came here today puts you so far ahead of everybody else and i hate knowing for fact that so many of you are going to give up your advantage because you like hearing me say it and you like the way it feels but then you leave and you don't do anything about it so please brisbane do me a favor do something about this talk today i employ you it will change the course of your career thank you plus anybody let's go are you die with some real good you talk a lot about saying that facebook and instagram and all these places that you putting a lot of time and money into now advertising is going to come to an end what spaces or what businesses you watching to see what's going to come next so in general i like to tell people look i'm not fucking no stir dominates right so i have no idea the one place i keep lists looking at as voice i keep telling you guys guys voice everybody in this room in five years we'll have voice activated devices whether it's their phone their close their car the wallpaper in their home that instead of grabbing a phone you're going to interact with force it's going to be friction 'less you've got to figure out how your business and service interact in a boyce environment it's going to be voice right so the first thing you should do is start a podcast if you think you can podcast of great because you could just interview people even if you're not that interesting i don't know what to say you could just interview people.

facebook instagram fourteen years five years
"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

The GaryVee Audio Experience

02:05 min | 3 years ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

"Pretty audacious bunch i couldn't even begin to think about cooking right it's not a skill set i have for so many view it just came natural from the beginning right being an entrepreneur more importantly being a successful entrepreneur is a skill set right and it's one that comes natural to some and others not as much it's a fun thing to be right now and everybody wants to and the opportunities very real i'm a great entrepreneur but i think even better at consumer behavior and psychology it's who i am it's why a lot of you follow me because when you cut me down you see that i'm pushing positively and a whole lot of other things that matter and trying to get people to do it the right way be patient do the right thing the my friends you need to get yourself in the right place mentally and then you need to get yourself in the right place mentally because the thing that people have not wrap their head around is that this takes a lot of work like a lot of lot not a little something and if you aspire let me just ground this if you think you're gonna make a million dollars a year which it's funny the way people throw that out like everybody gets their almost nobody gets there right if you wanna make five hundred thousand dollars a year which would put you in the disproportion top one percent of income getters here in australia if you wanna make one hundred thousand dollars a year and like doing it and it's on your terms and it's your life it takes a lot of work and it takes a lot of smart work the thing i talk a whole lot about hustle the thing i talked about as being smart because i don't think that brings you any value so what i do is i try to come and speak or through my actions show you the smart things that i'm doing and then remind you that it's still hard work the framework is simple this is simple you may have not allowed yourself to have the honest conversation with yourself of how much hard work and how much patients it takes to be successful but it doesn't change the fact that that's the case you've never met anybody in your life who hasn't worked face off for a long time.

australia five hundred thousand dollars one hundred thousand dollars million dollars one percent
"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

The GaryVee Audio Experience

02:05 min | 3 years ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

"Two to two thousand eight amazon amazon was the number one advertiser on that platform in the early days they siphoned underpriced attention to themselves and now they've built one of the biggest companies in the world who's one of the biggest advertisers in the last five years on facebook a shopping abc called wish how many people here from there with wish raise your hands raise them high i want people see this if i did this readers ago nobody would have raised their hands they are now a multibillion dollar retailer that spent all of their money until recently now they're doing the may weather and mcgregor fight sponsorship and the lakers doing kind of branding stuff because they've so penetrated to billions of dollars on facebook they were former google engineers on the ad product quit making millions of dollars a year and started a company selling stuff and only ran facebook ads this my friends is called pattern recognition i will do the same thing over and over i will be a ninety seven year old yoda looking dude standing up here and yelling at you about some cockamamie thing and it will be the same exact thesis that i'm spinning today get your fucking mind right i so that you can then put in the time and efforts based on your ambitions in becoming a humble practitioner of where the attention of the consumer is and if you have a moment like we have right now on facebook and instagram ads and instagram influencers you will win i spent four hours on the flight dm ing influencers about my sneaker release upcoming book buckley's i did it me not my intern not somebody i hired in the philippines my to fucking thumbs at this point making tens of millions of dollars a year because i've humility to understand what needs to be done to win and everybody's looking for scale ability and i'm gonna hire my twenty three year old niece.

amazon facebook lakers buckley intern philippines mcgregor google instagram ninety seven year twenty three year five years four hours
"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

The GaryVee Audio Experience

02:05 min | 3 years ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

"Here's a sixty eight year old do you know the difference they consume the videos and the pictures and the words to a higher degree and so i really need you to wrap your head around the fact that facebook and instagram have ungodly attention that the ad product on those two platforms are disproportionately underpriced and that that is where you should be trading not because i like facebook or instagram but because i want to be historically correct and i have one real micro regret in my business career not passing on uber angel rounds not other things because those things are kind of come and go there's a lot of variables that go into it no the one time when i knew what i was doing but i didn't go all in when i was building my dad's liquor store google adverts came out and i bought every wine term for five cents a click and i owned everyone term you can imagine for five and ten cents a click from australia wine to barrosa valley right to penfolds grange nineteen ninetyfour like every skew top middle understand i was getting customers for forty to eighty cents a piece that we're worth ten fifteen dollars for me but i couldn't wrap my head around how special that moment was i was young right i didn't have experienced i was just learning about print and outdoor and direct mail all working because of the macro product i created pricewise and selection wise but i sit back and when i hear i built dad's store from three to sixty million and everyone's like i'm like fuck that guy that guy should've built it from three to two hundred fifty million if he was smart enough to take his energy and money away from print and radio and television and direct mail and put it all into google because google had that moment where it was grossly underpriced my friends who was the biggest advertiser on google from to.

facebook dad guy google instagram australia barrosa valley ten fifteen dollars sixty eight year
"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

The GaryVee Audio Experience

01:48 min | 3 years ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

"And then what is it that other people don't have didn't have and i see it i see how my grandmother parented my dad i see my sisters and brothers dna different than mine timing and things of that nature and so i'm going heady for my opening spot because i need you to understand too many of you are going to take fucking notre now and think it's about a facebook ad too many of you are about to take a note be like okay google how to use instagram influencers we'll get to that i'm about to talk about that but if you're found dacian isn't right you have no shot of longterm success if you're not in a place where you believe this look this is super like i'm even like throwing up on to be very frank here's what's happening my head i'm listening to what i'm saying right i'm like this fucking sucks i'm being serious i mean really fucking serious with you actually and i'm saying that because i'm like man it's so what i'm talking about is like so hard to like touch right but it's still my truth it's what i believe like you're either on the offense or you're on the defense you either see all these technologies as the gateway drug to your entire future or you're upset that it was much easier to do this on email and seo and you don't like this social media thing right i don't like these new things either i built my dad's business from three to sixty million dollar business on email and google ad words i didn't want you to come along i didn't want twitter to come along right i didn't want facebook to come along i didn't want snapchat to come along i don't want voice an alexa skills and podcast to come along i'm not looking forward to vr the problem is technology and the way we live doesn't care about my opinion or my feelings and it doesn't care about yours either and so you can walk around earth and judge.

google dacian facebook instagram alexa sixty million dollar
"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

The GaryVee Audio Experience

01:59 min | 3 years ago

"brisbane australia" Discussed on The GaryVee Audio Experience

"Six years i've been executing bainer media and while i do this gary v thing gary took the one hundred fifty million dollar holding company from scratch is exciting an interesting and it really has become obvious to me why that's happening and it's around mindset i i think that there's way too many people in this audience that are in the excuse business i am yeah and it's it's tough because i'm empathize there's always things you could have two parents that were drug addicts you could have lost your parents in a car accident when you were kid you could have had your money stolen to you by a partner the so many things that happen in life i'm super pathetic to it the ultimate problem is though is that the market the world doesn't care right there's so much dwelling going on so many reasons why not and the thing that has been really interesting to me is that if you asked me what works for me it's optimism and gratitude and positive mindset like it's really interesting to me life is pretty binary it's either black or white it's either yes or no and the one that matters to me the most is your either on the offense in your life right now or you're on the defense you're either coming up with reasons why not all this technology all this stuff that why not or or why yes all this technology all this stuff you're looking at things and you're making a decision and so for me a lot of what i've been thinking about is mindset and optimism works literally seven minutes ago in the in the green room i'm on the phone with executives of media i'm getting texts of scope that we expected to sign failed million dollars literally counting on a million dollars gone zero not happening right another pitch luna final two eight million dollars didn't get it literally in forty seven seconds step back in the back room i lost nine million dollars.

gary partner million dollars one hundred fifty million doll two eight million dollars nine million dollars forty seven seconds seven minutes Six years