Aired Last week 0:55
America's Truckin' Network | Newsradio 700 WLW
Amazon reportedly weighing alternatives to New York headquarters
From the news
Aired 3 months ago 68:53
Brianna Maitland /// Part 1 /// 254
An award night special TV van oxygen brains to life pain, Lindsay's hit true crime podcast up and vanish and two thousand sixteen pain took a deep dive into the disappearance of Tara Grinstead, a young teacher who vanished thirteen years ago. His podcast has reached over two hundred forty million people pain is still at work determined to bring closure to Tara small town. Don't miss up in vanish a one night special TV event Sunday November eighteenth at seven on oxygen. Welcome to true crime garage, wherever you are whatever you are doing thanks for listening. I'm your host Nick in with me as always is the bass player for Scranton necessity to not to be confused with Scranton necessity. He is the captain. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Get to be saying. It was good to see you. Thanks for listening and thanks for telling the friends. Tonight and tomorrow, we will be sipping on heart of Lowthian by drop in brewing company in Middlebury, Vermont garage grade, four and a half bottle caps out of five part of Lowthian is one of drop ins flagship beers. And it's brewed year round. This is a traditional Scottish ninety shilling ale. Brewed with Scottish, golden promise barley, malt, British floor malted, crystal and chocolate malts five point six percent AB. And this great beer was brought to us by our good friends. First up. We have Miriam in good old Germany and the big we'd like to gyp to Kristen and Caelian Oklahoma next up. We have a trio for you. But they don't know each other. This is Vicky Cassidy and Ryan all and beautiful parts on make sure you pay your monthly membership fees. We also captain have Heather in Saint Mary's Georgia and last, but certainly not least we have Yasmine and dundy you k. So thanks everybody for going to true crime garage helping out with the beer fund. Checking out the blog checking out the store page checking out all of our beautiful shirts, coffee, mugs and garage gear at that store page and that you've donated to the beer fund. We are little bit behind. Just be patient people. We'll get its first come first serve. Captain. Everybody gathered around Brad share grab a beer. Let's talk some true crime. On a freezing dark Knight. And March of two thousand and four a young seventeen year old girl clocked out of work just before midnight. She got into her car and drove in the direction of home. She has never been seen again. Her car was found in what I can only say has to be one of the strangest vehicular accident scenes I've ever viewed. Her car was smashed backwards into an abandoned creepy old farmhouse. The old house has a violent history impossible drug connections. But what happened to the driver of that car? And was this really even a car accident at all? Or did terrible crime take place something that may have led to the abduction of this girl. It is very likely that someone out there know, something and still guards their dark secrets all of these years later this week we tell the story of the disappearance of brianna Maitland. This case is an absolute jumble of confusing facts, debatable evidence complex characters contradictory theories and rampant. Rumors so to break. This thing down we are first going to get into what we know to be true based on tangible evidence as well as reports by Brienne, his parents, friends and others who interacted with her. So this is what actually happened the day that brianna Maitland disappeared March nineteenth two thousand and four Montgomery Vermont. This is a small rural town of about nine hundred people near the Canadian border. This is late winter in northern New England. The ground is still frozen in the air cold, the low temperature that night was only eight degrees. This sparsely populated area. Features dense woods wide open fields and houses and farms set far apart in the landscape for Mont at the time had a. Very low crime rate compared to much of the rest of the nation. This is Friday and the seventeen year old brianna Maitland and her mother are going out to lunch after they went shopping at a local mall now Verena and her mother had somewhat of a strained relationship. All seem normal on this trip until one point win Kelly. Bryan, his mom says that they were in a store in Briana started staring at something outside of the store. Brienne a mumbled something to herself and then walked out by the time Kelly paid for her purchases and walked out to the parking lot Briana was waiting for her. She seemed agitated in upset Kelly said the mood had noticeably change she decided not to press her daughter about this issue, though, Brannagh made no mention of why she left the store. So suddenly, she just said she needed to hurry back to where she was staying to get ready for work brianna. Not living at the Maitland home at this time. She was staying with her friend since fourth grade, this is Gillian stout at jillions dance home. Kelly dropped her off there between three thirty and four PM on that day. Now brianna had a job as a dishwasher at a local establishment. This is the black lantern in she's working evenings after school in the schools a bit tricky here, captain because it's not traditional what you would think for a high school age girl seventeen year old girl she actually was studying for her GED at a local community college during the day. This was a popular tavern where she worked where locals and skiers would gather for meals and drinks, then after noon brianna left a handwritten note for her friend, Jillian the note told Jillian that brianna would be home after her shift at work, the Vermont state, police retains a cop. Of this note, but the family has never seen it. So we don't know exactly what it says reports are that it just states brianna plan to return to jillions after her shift to stay the night there. Now, there are no accounts captain of anything unusual during her shift at work that night, other employees said that brianna acted normal brianna war apron like uniform that had pockets her family doesn't know what else. She was wearing that night. The end was very busy that Friday night and Briana didn't finish until after eleven pm. Her co workers report that she declined to stick around some of the co workers would hang out at the black lantern in after their shift, and she declined on that night. Right. Some reports say she told colleagues that she had to get to bed because she had to work her other job the next morning. This may have been true. Brianna just days before started work as a waitress at cage as diner, but we're we aren't certain whether she did have a shift the next morning or not. There are no reports that we've seen to indicate that when she failed to show up the next day or indeed for nearly a week. They anyone at the diner called anybody or notified anyone Roerich started. So I mean, they could just been like, well, she flaked out, right? Yeah. They don't know her character at that point. So brianna clocked out of from the black lantern in at eleven twenty pm on March nineteenth and she walked out into the cold dark night multiple sources, including the Vermont state police report, this she was seen by other employees getting into her car and driving away. Brannagh's car was a big green four door nineteen eighty five Oldsmobile eighty eight Royal it was a boat. That's right given to her by her grandfather. This was nearly twenty years old the vehicle was nearly twenty years old, and it frankly that looked like it. The car was registered to Kellie Maitland. This is Brian is mom, but Briana was the driver of the vehicle, right? So one point three miles down the road from the black lantern in in the direction of where brianna was staying. With Jillian was an abandoned house known to the locals as the old Dutch, burn place. It was a dilapidated farmhouse about forty or fifty feet off of the east Berkshire road. Route one eighteen the windows in the doors are boarded up with plywood. The farmhouse has been abandoned since nineteen eighty six when two elderly brothers who live there. Mike and hairy. Dutch burn were viciously attacked by an intruder in the home and beaten severely both men had to be hospitalized and seek permanent care after this incident and neither of them ever returned to the house that case. Has never been solved. The Dutch burn house rest on a small bluff. Overlooking a large field that is bordered on the other side by a river will post pictures of this. So you can see not only the building but also the crash site. So like we said, captain, it's one point three miles from where she works this abandoned house. So it wouldn't have taken her long at all to get to this location. Now the tricky thing here though is early in the morning on March twentieth. This is a Saturday a group of three skiers from nearby. Jay peak ski resort. We're driving on route one eighteen and came to the Dutch-born place what they saw their caused them to pull over park their car and get out to take a closer look by the light of day. They could see the large green car with the rear corner of the car embedded in the house and the trunk and of the car partially stuck up on the houses foundation. The plywood. Covering one of the windows was knocked out by the impact and was lying on the trunk of the car. The ski group was so intrigued by this strange tableaux that they took a bunch of photos of this scene and photos that can still be seen today. Online the ones that you're talking about picking one in posting there yet and they find the lime on the back of her trunk. They did and we'll we'll get into that later after the this trio were done taking the photos, and I believe these photos are the only publicly viewable photos of the car wedged into the side of the abandoned house that are available to the public, but they left after taking these pictures now later that day around one twenty pm a state trooper driving by notice the Erie scene and stopped by the car to check it out. He found the car doors closed, but unlocked windows up and no keys anywhere in sight. Peering into the car. He likely saw all of the following things that were in the car and visible in photos. So we have a marijuana leaf decoration hanging from the rear MIR. We have litter and objects all over the interior of the car, including takeout containers. A snow scraper a case of cans of tuna, cheeses and other food. There were also two paychecks found inside the car with the name brianna Maitland on them. There are many reports that there were some things found on the ground outside the car. Police officer noted a broken necklace on the ground and tossed it into the car. There was also loose change and a water bottle. And by some reports and unsnapped cigarette. The cop basically made nece sump shin that a drunk driver had an accident and the car was. Possibly stuck on the houses foundation, and they ditched the vehicle so that they wouldn't get in trouble. He issued a tow order for the vehicle which it was picked up in tow to a local garage. It does not seem that the officer made any attempt to contact the registered owner of the vehicle. This is Kelly Maitland. Brannagh's his mother. So the vehicle here, captain is look I keep saying that it's an eerie scene. It's an eerie scene because we're sitting here talking today. And we know that this girl this poor girls missing. Right. And I think for me just driving by if I would have been from the roadside. They're looking at the scene. It's a strange one. I definitely think it's a strange one to see a vehicle backed into an abandoned home. Right. But it's a it's more of a barn. Yeah. That's farmhouse. I think is a fair. Thing to call it. So, but I think you could offer somebody hundred bucks spend the night in it, and there'd be a lot of people that want it take that offer. Well, that's it's interesting that you say that because it does have the violent history. It is kind of out in the middle of nowhere right beside the road. Right. And it's it's in a dark area that would be it'd be very dark at night. This is not an area that's like lined with street lights. Right. But we do have the trio that see the vehicle that morning. They take pictures of it. There is a rumor that the officer the scheduled the towing of the vehicle took a picture as well of the car. Yeah. I've heard that. And but that if that photo exist, either electrically or physically, then it's not one that is viewable not one that you will find on the internet. Why think maybe you're confusing that with the story of the officer that stopped and took? Pictures a believe the night before. And but he was on his way off duty. I think that's I have not heard that story. Yeah. I believe this. The story goes that there's a officer off duty he stopped took pictures than just went on his way. Does he report what time that would have taken place that would have been it would have been like early morning late? A couple of hours after she went missing, basically. So we have the vehicle it is towed from the scene. I do want to throw this out there, captain because I have seen a lot of comments on this case, especially when people looking at pictures of the vehicle backed into this abandoned house. There's a lot of people that really criticize the state trooper the police here for not doing more with the vehicle in those comments in I tend to disagree with that criticism. And I I mean. Here's what happens is. We have a few of these cases where it's not a drunk driver. And it becomes something more. And then the cops get a lot of criticism here. But we're not factoring in the mount of abandoned cars they're getting and their church diction every weekend. And this is this is a common thing. And this is something that I don't think that a well, obviously, a bunch of people don't understand and the general public. This is a common thing. Like, you said they're now we live in a major city so driving here. It's not uncommon for me to pass at least one abandoned car on my way, just to get to the garage each week. So here, you know, we see it's right in front of our faces maybe here in this. Where our case where our story takes place. You know, it's it's a rural area. So maybe this doesn't take place on the daily like we have here. But. This is a common thing for state troopers and police to have to deal with and then on top of that look their job is to show up in a says, the situation, okay and nine times. Well, not even nine times. It's ninety nine times out of a hundred it straight up and abandon vehicle either. It doesn't run for some reason or the person left it there for any number of reasons the officer would just look at the vehicle and try to determine if another if some kind of actual crime took place, right? And if it doesn't look like a crime took place, you're having the vehicle towed. As long as if this person, you know stays missing rate, if if somebody's reported missing this is their vehicle, we at least have the car to investigate anything inside the car. The other thing too is there's a lot of criticism by people saying well the officer could've had lease. I reached out to the registered owner of the vehicle, and I I kind of agree with that. I do and I don't, and here's why one the person that ends up going missing isn't the technically the paper owner of this vehicle wherever the cop doesn't know any of that. I mean, basically at the end of the day, you have a car on this side of the road and who's responsible for that car. The owner whoever it's registered to. So you contact the register. Hey, your car is being towed to such and such location. I don't think that's an it doesn't have to be the cop. It could be the towing company some should notify the person when you're showing their car. I like I said, I have mixed feelings about that. I agree and I disagree with that criticism. And this feelings about you. Well, good for you. But what I'm saying? Here is the police are not. It's not their job to contact the owner my opinion, they're they're they don't need to hunt down the person and say, look, well, we found your car or you abandoned your car here. And it's been towed. Right. I think where again, it's because we know that outcome, and we also know that the person driving this car was seventeen year old teenager, right and win. This case becomes natural national news and others. Have that are similar to this case? And we'll get into those later. But that's when people start wondering, hey, what are they doing over there? Why aren't they treating this vehicle? Like, it's something serious. Now, what I will say is this a couple of questionable things, the the where I might change my mind and say that I do agree with you, captain and agree with the criticism of others that the registered owner was not contacted by law enforcement is I see some signs of possibly somebody living out of this vehicle. Right. And I and I think cans of tuna where I agree with you is it's not protocol wrote. Maybe it should be protocol. Especially in these situations where if it is a teenager kid, we don't know. No that by just looking at the vehicle, but like you said there's evidence if this tuna and the car, you have evidence almost somebody's living out of this vehicle, and the other thing here, though, is you say, well, I I'm curious did would the car have run was it operational. And I think that's a question a lot of people's minds, and we don't know that because the officer didn't find the find the keys he found a vehicle unlocked the doors closed, but unlocked, no keys. He has no way of determining if it's operational. But that would have to me that that would point us in some different areas. Because what you're going to see in this case is there's a lot of different theories. And a lot of them are going to have to do with what actually happened with this vehicle. Right. And so we don't know if the vehicle was operational. Here's what my guess is. It actually doesn't look to me. Like anybody came spinning off the road and wrecked into the side of this abandoned house. Because that didn't wreck into side first or headfirst the back into the building. And it almost looks to me. Like, I kept saying, you know, it it appears and others agree with the statement that it appears that maybe the vehicle the rear portion of the vehicle the trunk of the vehicle is up on the houses foundation. So picture this. You have a much more solid foundation holding up basically a wooden farmhouse. Right. So the vehicle now mind you this is nineteen eighty this vehicles in nineteen eighty-five. I had a nineteen eighty six Buick regal those cars back then were not built the way that our cars are built today. Our cars today feel very plastic, and they crumple they're meant to crumple to protect the the passengers and the driver of the vehicle if there were an accident back then the corners of those vehicles were solid, man. Those things were solid the true the corner the front corners of Mike. Car. I know this from experience would do damage to to anything that they came in contact with back when he had the the Buick so her vehicle this eighty five Oldsmobile to me, it looks like somebody may have been in the yard near this abandoned home and tried to back up you throw the thing into reverse and think about how dark we already said it would have been there at this location. Right. We don't have backup cameras. Yeah. My thought is maybe someone I I'm not willing to say who was driving the vehicle, but let's say it was brianna. She could've for whatever reason stopped in that yard decided to throw the vehicle into reverse and the corner of that car smashed through the wood portion of the abandoned home in somehow slid up onto the more solid foundation, actually lifting the rear. Of the vehicle slightly up in off of the ground. Yeah. Underneath the car. I think he pulled a juvenile. Well, the thing is a lot of people when they look at the picture, and I know we're really going into the vehicle a lot. But like I said that's kind of the core of this case in my opinion. And a lot of people would say, well, if she were driving the vehicle and had some kind of accident into the side of that, abandoned home. Why didn't she just continue driving on what I'm getting at is. If in fact, the rear of the vehicle was lifted up slightly onto the foundation of the of the home right that nineteen eighty five Oldsmobile eighty eight Royal was a rear wheel drive vehicle. If the if the back is elevated, she's not able to get those tires on the ground to drive off, especially if she's by herself, right? If you had a few people there, you might be able to figure it out or or unwed the vehicle. Yes. So whether or not the the car is drivable, it could have been operational, and she had no ability. To get it. Right. Right. The other thing too, captain is that we have the doors are all closed, but unlocked now, we have to keep in mind. This is an eighty five this is a four door car. These are all individual locks. This is not like somebody hit one single button and unlocked all four doors at the same time. Right. And there's some question as to who was operating that vehicle at the time that it wrecked into the side of the home, or how many people could have been inside that vehicle though, I witnesses that saw her leaving with anybody. Right. And so you have to ask yourself would have been more commonplace. It'd be interesting to know if she was the type that locked her car doors because if we're talking about a situation where she wrecked on accident and just hopped out of the car and decided to leave on foot if she was a type two locker doors, I would expect to find the other three doors possibly locked. I mean, it it takes a bit of effort to go. Through an unlock all four doors. Of course, we want locked doors to save all that tune. That's right. But there are people out there that do not lock their car doors. You know, you, and I know these people like this that say maniacs. Well, no. But you have some people that have, unfortunately, their car windows have been smashed out. So somebody can break into the car, and I have I do have several friends that don't have alarm systems on their car. And they've just told me straight up. Look, I don't keep anything in my car, and I keep my doors unlocked that somebody wants to check my car, they can just check the car door. And I have I'm tired of paying for smashed windows in my car. So moving on captain, we do have the car. That's towed. And we have brianna who is missing. So on Sunday night, March twenty first her roommate Jillian returned home from the weekend. She spent away her grandmother's home she noticed. The note left by Briana was still on the counter, she didn't think much of it actually because grandma was not living at home. Like we said, but she was also moving around quite a bit lately, she was crashing at friends homes and even boyfriends homes and not staying in one place for too long. She was doing a bit of couch surfing captain, but by Tuesday, March twenty third win brianna still hasn't been seen or heard from Jillian called the Maitland's and asked for Briana, Kellie Maitland. Immediately became alarmed, she called her sister. Tammy she called various friends as well. And after searching fruitlessly on March twenty third. The Maitland's contacted the Vermont state police the file a missing persons report on their daughter. They were told that an AP be would be put out on Berina and her car. The Maitland's heard nothing from the police for two days. Now, there are some discrepancies in the the story about the car being found. Okay. According to what the Vermont state police told media sources, they established the identity of the owner of the car, and they called the Maitland's on that Thursday. According to what the Maitland's told. Dateline NBC and other sources that on that Thursday after Briana went missing they went down to the Vermont state police and demanded some attention be paid to their daughter's case when the Maitland's arrived they sat down with an officer now during a conversation the officer who had actually found the vehicle found the car stuck. At the Dutch burn place, right overheard this conversation and came over to which he pulled out a photo, the he took of the car and Kellie Maitland reacted. She said the photo of the car made her stomach role. And as she put it, quote, I saw evil in that photo. Two thousand thirteen Amy air founded mass than read named after her daughter. The company is on a mission to revolutionize the way women color their hair for decades women only had two options outdated at home hair-color or the time and the expense of a salon. That's why Amy created mass in read because she believes women deserve better than the status quo and here in the garage, me and neck believe the same thing. Ladies there is nothing wrong with treating yourself and you can treat yourself with Madison Reed. You're gonna look like just came from a slob. But in reality, you had more meat time to do what you love experience. Beautiful multidimensional hair-color. It's made in Italy. It's delivered to your door. It's on your schedule and it's under twenty five dollars. That's right, treat treat treat yourself for under twenty five dollars. Join the hundreds of thousands of women who've tried and love Massin read finding perfect shade at Madison dash Reed dot com. Massin read like to on a true crime garage listeners. Ten percent off plus free shipping on their first color kit with promo code garage. That's promo code garage checkout. Mass in dash re dot com today. Mass and read treat yourself support. For today's show comes from Keira of care of as a monthly subscription vitamin service that delivers completely personalized vitamin and supplement packs right to your door just take care of fun online quiz, which ask you about your diet health goals and lifestyle choices and find out in five minutes what vitamins and supplements use specifically need, then you're vitamins will get delivered right to your door in personalized easy to remember daily packs. Perfect for a busy on the go lifestyle. Vegan vegetarian supplement options are available to match your dietary needs and your monthly subscription box can easily be modified it anytime. I love it. I went I took the quiz. That said, hey, you have you're having a little trouble focusing have little trouble with your energy level here. Take these been taking them. It's easy. They come in individually, wrapped packages, they even have your name on them. So I just go. These are the captain for twenty five percent off your first month of personalized care of vitamins. Visit take care of dot com and our garage that's take care of dot com. And enter garage for twenty five percent off your first month of personalized care of vitamins. Today's show. Sponsored by hint is the best selling natural flavored water Hent flavored water is a great alternative to sugary and quote, unquote, diet drinks, but with a variety of delicious fruit flavors that keep your taste buds coming back for more as pure water and fused with fruit. It contains zero calories zero sugar and zero diet sweeteners or other sketchy ingredients other. Flavored water brands have has over twenty delicious flavors to choose from including watermelon, pineapple, cherry, blackberry, and more hen founded by CEO CARA golden has helped millions of Americans get away from their addiction to diet soda. It's perfect for anyone. But especially those who don't like the taste of plain water like me for whatever reason. It's just not as refreshing you want to check out Hent what I love about Han as I get the benefits of getting my daily water and take, but I enjoy the flavor at first I love the watermelon than I went onto the pineapple, but my favorite lately has been the blackberry to receive thirty six bottles for thirty six dollars. Visit drink hint dot com slash garage and he's promo code garage. That's a drink hint dot com slash garage and use promo code garage to receive thirty six bottles for thirty six dollars. The offers only valid for the next two. Months so act now. All right. We're back. Yes, sir. So here we have a situation, captain where after being notified, regardless of how it actually went down by the police that the vehicle was found Saturday morning. The baristas vehicle was found Saturday morning. Now, we have her mother and father coming to the realization that this conversation is happening on Thursday. We found her vehicle Saturday. They heard from her friend Jillian on Tuesday. Who said, hey, I came home on Sunday. And I haven't seen her so likely the parents were thinking that she's been missing since Sunday. Now, they find out it could be could have been as early as Friday night when she left work. So now, they're terrified and the father her father is going to go to the garage where this vehicle is to view brianna car. This was look this has got to be hard for anyone to do. But we have a father of a missing daughter going to view, the vehicle, and there's an issue here. The vehicle's keys were not found with the vehicle. When he arrives to check out this car. They have the issue of the trunk. Somebody's got to look in that trunk and back, then this is not the type of vehicle where you could pull a lever and release the trunk the top of the truck, right? You'd have to have a key for it. Yeah. And because the keys were missing nobody has checked that that trunk and actually he said, you know, hey, when I walked up to this this car me in the guy that worked there may have been an officer. I'm not certain but these two guys had to pry open the trunk with a with a crowbar the whole time. He's concerned that he's going to find the body of his daughter in the trunk of that car along with some of her belongings. And you know, so you can only imagine the moment of terror when the lid finally popped on that thing, you know, praying that he would not find brianna in the trunk of that car all they did find, thankfully were boxes and bags of her possessions. They did not find her now back then two thousand and four brianna did not have a cell phone. So that would also add to the mystery of this, quote, unquote, car accident at the abandoned house. It's my understanding though, captain, you know, this is two thousand and four upstate Vermont that there was little to most likely no cell service anywhere in the area of the vehicle accident. Right. That makes you wonder if she rector car, and she was alone and her car couldn't get couldn't get the car out of the barn. Basically. Right. That would she hitchhike. Right. And the other thing too. There is some argument out there that people state. Well, she did have she did have a cell phone. And that's that's not true. She didn't have a cell phone. What's actually true? Is that her mother had a cell phone at the time in on occasion? Would let her use it even take it with her. She just. Have that day? Correct. You're absolutely right. So it's kind of clear that the police assumed early on in the investigation that brianna was maybe a runaway or at the very least some sort of irresponsible teenager a Bruce. And Kellie, the parents became very frustrated early on in this is mainly because one of her workers one of Brienne is co workers actually told the police that she had said she was going on some sort of trip. Some kind of short trip at the time and one of Rina's friends said that they often talked about escaping to Florida and another friend said that brianna often made reference to wanting to get out of the small town Vermont and head to a city like Montreal or New York. So. It's a lot different than Florida. Well, but that's what's tricky for law enforcement. When you start talking to people close to her you have one saying, hey, she was talking about going on some kind of trip. Right. You have one saying, hey, she always talked about going and move into Florida at some point. And then somebody else saying she wanted to move to a large city. This is proof that most people don't listen to you when you talk. What do you mean? It's just I mean, the fact that all of our friends have all these different stories. She could've told different people different things over the course of possibly who knows how long it's more likely that people don't pay attention. Well, the problem here though, captain is going to be that her family. They don't agree with any of this. They want the police to be looking for their daughter. But what the police no on the on the surface is look we have a seventeen year old. That's not living with her parents at the time that she suddenly. Disappears. Right. And she's also told multiple people that she had plans or at least desire to go. Elsewhere at some point in her life. The Maitland's demanded to be given lie detector tests, because you know, knowing that the family would be investigated at some point. They wanted to be involved in the investigation and help. So they offered up anything that they could do to be eliminated at least as suspects. So that they could be involved in the search for their daughter. There are reports that brianna had left once before without telling her parents now her father Bruce later denied this on the Nancy grace TV show at the time. She vanished brianna had moved out of her. Parents houses, we said they lived on a remote farmhouse in Franklin, and she had moved in with various friends in boyfriends from the time that she moved out. I'm a little unclear captain of. Exactly when she moved out from her parents home, the understanding I have is that the Maitland's were likely in the process of separating and that she didn't have a great relationship with her mother. She did have a good relationship by all reports with her father. But again, I don't know that situation other than it's important to know, she was not living at home. There are some reports like you, and I suspected that she may have lived in her car temporarily at times, right? I mean, if she couldn't find the couch to crash on. Okay. I'll just sleep in the back of my car. What we do know is that in February of two thousand and four she dropped out of school. She enrolled in depending on who you talk to a GED program or a G HD program the old g HD, and this would have been at a local community college doing no wise dropped on the school because I heard rumors that she was a good student. So. I heard two completely different. Rumors. Okay. So one rumor is that she was involved in drugs or had some kind of drug issue. It was getting in the way of schooling and may have been leading to her getting in trouble, at least on the school level. Right. And then the other rumor that I heard was that she. Didn't get along with some of the students that she either didn't fit in. I'm a little unclear what exactly that meant. But we do know this. She actually attended two different high schools before dropping out so. Could be both though. Right. It could be. Have a little bit of issues with people you go to school with so using drugs to of cope with that can be both. Well, we also have a strange issue here that I call an question because after she went missing, according to her mother, she publicly stated her mother public stated several times that she Briana was starting to get her life together. I'm uncertain as to what that means. Okay. To me when I hear that that indicates that there was something where her life was not together. And we don't know what that means in the perspective of her mother. Right. Well, makes give some validity to the the rumors of possibly she was using drugs. Right. And that was my first thought now, I don't know if if what she's referring to is. Well, she dropped out of one school went to the other school dropped out of that one. And she was working on getting her G E D is some form of trying to get her life together. But what the parents would point out is if she wanted to leave. The problem they pointed to with not believing that theory from the police is the two uncast paychecks that were left in her vehicle. This seems like something that she would have needed. There is some argument by the parents as well that she would have taken the vehicle with her. But as you, and I stated if if she were if the vehicle was stuck that may not have been an option right at the end. But the paychecks would have been if if we would have known that suits, go missing, right? The police officers knew they could have done a couple of tests to see if they could even get the vehicle moving right again. That's what you're always going to have that argument that the cops could've done more. Yeah. Well, we have the Vermont state police they did work with the FBI and conducted ground and air searches of the area surrounding the abandoned house because wasn't there department very very small. Okay. So this is my understanding, and this almost seems unbelievably small. But my understanding is she said did they had like thirteen officers for the entire county. Yeah. That's what I heard. And so you're thousands of people that were reported missing roughly in that area. Like, not not not from that town, but within that area. So to have only thirteen officers be able to look for anybody. That's crazy. Well, and if you're sitting there thinking that thirteen doesn't sound like that small of a number. Let's keep in mind that the police force is a twenty four seven operation. Okay. And actually in some small towns, I will say state this it does they do shut down from time to time. But this is the state police so for my understanding it would be a twenty four seven operation of thirteen men and women patrolling the area twenty four hours seven months year. Now regarding these searches captain, I'm a little unclear as to win the. Actually took place, which you know, really can mess up what they could have possibly found, but they were days long, these searches the ground searches and they did include hundreds of volunteered citizens with as many as five hundred participating at one point. Now this area includes many many acres of four Slann which can be very difficult to search. So the searches turn up really nothing related to brianna. The Maitland's went into search and rescue mode themselves with Bruce searching areas with friends and Kelly designing printing in disseminating, thousands of missing persons fliers all over the area. Investigators also searched the Dutch burn house and the surrounding woods a couple of sources reported that the Vermont state police their detective, Brian Miller told the media investigators found a gun and drug paraphernalia inside the farmhouse. The area around. The Dutch burn house was searched by a metal detection expert in an attempt to find the missing car keys, while he found loose change. No keys, wherever located state police officers received quite a few tips in brought in over one hundred and sixty persons for personal interviews in at least three individuals were given polygraph examinations that were quote inconclusive with at least one revealing deception now, we don't know who these people are that were given the polygraph examinations. Their names have not been named publicly witnesses spot the car, so we have some other witnesses that may have spotted the car, right? So police turned up some witnesses said they saw Bryan his car on the night that she went missing one report is around twelve thirty AM March twentieth. And this time is absolutely. Crucial to any reconstruction of the events. This is a man who has been described in numerous sources as a quote, very credible witness said, he drove by the Dutch, burn house and noticed the car outside of it. He pointed at the road with he said, the sorry, the vehicle was pointed at the road with its headlights on at this time, the car fit the description of Brannagh's car, a second witness also saw the car sometime around midnight or one AM they're not certain of the time, but this witness states that the blinker was on now whether instead of in addition to the lights being on or you know, instead of or addition to we don't know. Okay. So obviously, if it's in addition to the first guy could have just missed seeing the blinker being on if the blinker was on instead of the lights than someone was in. The car after that first sight, but the finally another person reported seeing the car that night. This was closer to four am this is James robot telly, this is brianna ex-boyfriend one of her ex boyfriend's told investigators he drove by on his way, home from a party across the border and saw the car in recognized it to be pre Anna's. He said there was no sign of her anywhere. It might be strange that he wasn't concerned about brianna enough to notify anyone of her abandoned vehicle to he see any lights. I couldn't find a statement from him stating that lights were on that might have drawn that may have alerted him more later he would say he was drunk that night, and he was afraid of getting in trouble. So he didn't report it that night and stuff too. Because you'd think if there's no keys the car's in park, then why are the lights on? The other thing too, though, that's interesting about his statement is he says he saw the car, but he he he outwardly states that brianna was nowhere near or not in the area. Meaning to me that he may have he likely stopped in investigated that he got close enough to the car to see that. There was no one in it at the time. Right. We should note that one of the homes that brianna had stayed at during this time away from her. Parents house was James grandparents house now at the end of March a forensic team process. Brannagh's car searching, it thoroughly and taking pieces out of the interior to test. They're looking for evidence of a struggle or possible foul play. All right. So we have the initial investigation it states that didn't indicate any kind of violent struggle inside the vehicle although the investigator conceded that the way that the car. Was backed into the house. It did not look like a quote normal accident. No. Like you said in the trailer. I mean, this is kind of strange. I mean I've seen cars hit houses before. Right, but never back up into them. Right. And they found brianna 's ATM card they found her contact lenses and migraine medication inside the vehicle as stated earlier her keys were gone. And they have never been found to this day. Interestingly Lieutenant Nelson. Working. The case told reporters the car was discovered at one twenty two AM on March twentieth by neighbor. So this must be the unnamed witness that is quoted, you know, stated to be credible who saw the lights and or blinkers on another thing. Lieutenant Nelson said that's interesting is that it wasn't immediately apparent to investigators that brianna was the last person to drive the vehicle now he did not expound on this statement wonder what they've found to make them think that it. That's a weird statement in in the reason why find that to be a weird statement, captain is you can kind of take that one of two ways you can take it in a sense that maybe they found something to indicate that possibly there was someone else. Driving vehicle at the time of the accident or that they couldn't find anything to definitively say that brianna was in fact. The one driving vehicle, right? It's kind of a very vague statement to throw out there. And the second one's not so bad though. I mean, just to say, well, we don't know for sure. So this is keep an open mind. So the Maitland's offered up a twenty thousand dollar reward for information leading to Brienne his safe return or the arrest of the person or persons responsible for her disappearance, and they did establish a website. This is bring Bree home dot com. Dedicated to finding her so who is brianna captain. Brianna Alexander Maitland was born on October eighth nineteen eighty six at the time of her disappearance. She was just seventeen years old. She was five foot tall five four inches tall. I'm sorry. Weighs a hundred and five pounds has Hazel eyes and medium linked Brown hair. Yeah. She also has a nose stud in her left nostril and a faint scar on her left eyebrow. She is a hardy new Englander who can shoot skeet trank deer in zip around on an ATV or snowmobile Brannagh's mom says one time Brannagh packed picked up a hitchhiker and brought him home. One thing that's important to know about brianna is that she is trained in. Jitsu? Thank you. Just seeing that word on paper threw me for. So she brought the hitchhiker home disposed to pick them up and taken drop them off somewhere else. Take them home. Are you you look I've had. That I can recall I think I've had one experience with the hitchhiker. And that was the protocol for that trip was to drop them off at another location, actually, bring them home. This is actually very common in the seventies. I mean, hitchhikers were very common and people would pick them up all the time. But two thousand four not so much. But no, no. But what I'm saying is the thinking back on it to think that at one point in in our nation that in the seventies. Where like, hey, just pick people up, and it's cool. Yeah. Well, and it would happen often on college campuses as well liking so students that didn't know one another from attending the school. But happened to be from, you know, hey, like if you lived somewhere along my drive home, right? We we there were ways of hooking up. I'd be like, hey, I'll drop the captain off on my way back to to my family's home for thanksgiving. Bright one I'm eighties baby. So it's like I've heard all the stories from the seventies. Now where investigating this case of two thousand four and he go she picked up a hitchhiker like that's just not something people do. Yeah. I mean, I've never hitchhiked myself. But as far as the jitsu thing goes, we should note that she wasn't just trained in it. This is a she was study. The practice for several years leading up to her disappearance. But I think what's interesting thing. Here captain about the hitchhiker. I think if you are knowing in advance that she is absolutely willing to pick up a hitchhiker. I think that points out to the same thought that she might be willing to accept a ride as well. With so much focus on the vehicle, and what could have happened to the vehicle. What happened to her afterwards? We don't know. Right. And this points to the thought where you know, because we've covered other cases where parents or loved ones or friends or going. She would have never gotten to a car not this situation. You can't tell me that if she's willing to let someone in her car, I think she's willing to accept a ride, especially if you're kind of out in the sticks in a dark area at midnight. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. I don't want to look I'm not trying to judge ju jitsu at all. But you know, there's been a lot of masters of the the martial arts that are masters of digits who that say, hey, look this stuff works in that setting. But this is grappling. This has nothing to do with striking. So. This idea that if if somebody tried to attack her that she'd be able to take down any man is just kind of a ridiculous statement. That's I mean, I don't know who saying that statement, I just stating that she was not she didn't have the inability to do such bright that it was possible that she's trained in some in a in a form of martial arts that most people are not so, but while we're on the the topic of background information on brianna, we should point out too. That there was an assault on brianna that occurred on February twenty seventh. This is only weeks before she went missing. Yeah. She took a selfie sh-. Well, reports are that brianna was at a party and rich furred which is near the Canadian border James Roby telly, which is a name that we've heard before who was either her ex or. Or her current flame? At the time of this party was also there, right? He's the guy that reported seeing her car a number of other kids were there as well. Including a girl named keely lacrosse in a local guy, whom keely was possibly involved with keely thought that brianna was flirting with this guy. So words were exchanged and Briana walked out of the party and went out to James's truck apparently should fell asleep. But at some point Kiely in her cousin came outside told brianna to roll down the window, and they challenged her to a of a fight punching her enough. Yeah. Punching her in the face friends of Briana reported the Keeley was pushing brianna to fight her in hitter again. But brianna refused to fight. Just got punched a few times in the face, and she left the party crying James apparently, drove her home that night brianna sustained a broken nose and a concussion and to very black is now at the urging of her parents, a filed charges these charges were alternately dropped by the county district attorney's office after Briana went missing. We don't know a whole lot about keely lacrosse, but for what it's worth in two thousand and five she told W C A X, quote, I got into an argument with her meaning brianna, and I regret everything that happened. I really wish she was here today, and quote Keeley went on to have a few tangles with the law. If you wanna call them that including an arrest for home, invasion and assault in two thousand and twelve this is this is problem. Attic, I feel I feel like we have a situation here where we have a history we have someone who. I wouldn't call. This is not a fight. She attacked. Brianna Perkin knows giver concussion. Yeah. Yeah. So words are exchanged in Briana left the situation. Right went outside in chilled out in the truck. And then she's approached again by this girl. And then we have we do know that she goes on to have this situation of a home, invasion and assault. Here's my understanding. I wish I knew a little bit more about this, home, invasion because home invasions can be extremely violent. Hell we discussed one just last week in the garage, right? The ended in a double homicide. So I don't know the details of this home invasion. It could have been something as simple to break in and recover, something or break in and steal drugs. But I do have an understanding of the assault. So the assault. These were not two separate crimes the assault took place during the home invasion, and from my understanding she bit the victim. Now, I don't know if if they busted into the home in a fight broke out, and then the assault occurred by this was in two thousand twelve so we have to two incidents where we see that. We have a violent individual is what we do know. And unfortunately, these charges would ultimately be dropped because we don't have a victim around anymore. We don't have brianna around anymore to follow through on the charges being brought against Keeley. Right. So, but what you're saying Keeleys house broken into no, no, no, home, invasion. Meaning she was either invaded another home or part of a group that invaded another home. Okay. So she was one of the invaders. Yes. Yes. So she's in trouble with law. She's not just involved with them as victim. Yeah. That's not a good thing. Right. So we have I think you, and I can agree. This is someone that has at least on more than one occasion shown signs to have been violent. Well, and let me put this. You know, I wanna say. This is hearsay rumor mill stuff, but as far as this party goes this whole idea that that brianna came with her boyfriend are ex boyfriend James James, see, I heard this story little different. The rumor mill that I heard was that keely was involved. They're both involved with this guy, James. And that's what the fight was over. Okay. Was the rumor that I heard now is that true? I'm not for sure that's that's the room. I hear I heard in that could be right, which makes it more suspicious that James Saul her car that night possibly. Yes. And but this was what calls into question for me is keely a good suspect. And you know, there are did find we see the picture of her face. Yeah. Bryan his face. That's I mean, she looked like she was in the octagon. Right. But the reason why bring up. Qelia good suspect. I think on the surface at least knowing this background information. There's some kind of history there. But I have seen online reports state that no she's not a good suspect. She's been cleared. I couldn't find I couldn't find verification of what actually cleared her. But what I could find was I could find a statement from brianna 's father Bruce Maitland who says he quote doesn't believe she was ever really cleared. Okay. So this keep Kibo mind. We don't know why she's cleared. We don't know where alibi was you know, I think it's a good lead to go down. Yes. The other lead. We should go down is a possible drug connection to this missing persons case. So in two thousand and four the Vermont hills area where brianna lived was suffering from a drug epidemic. There was a massive influx of drugs brought by dealers from New York and Massachusetts there already was plenty of pot in the area. But this newer infiltration of hard drugs. They were bringing in things like crack cocaine and heroin. This was not just brought into the area. It was a problem. Right. So to drug dealers who came up to the small town Vermont area from the big city were Raymond street, Ryan's of Queens, New York and the th-annual low Jackson also from New York these guys. Sold crank and other drugs to the teens in the area. But they didn't just sell to these kids. They hung out with them as well. That's how it works. The two of them attended parties and socialized with the younger kids. They were providing drugs to how much Briana was involved in this drug scene is hotly contested. She seems to have been a pot smoker. Some friends say that she may have tried coke or crack a time or two others. Other people say that it went be on that you know, that she had some kind of drug problem as in rumors that she's a full blown crackhead. I mean, one of the speculations is one of the reasons why she got two jobs. I mean, she's Coutts surfing and stuff like that. So one of the reasons why she got that that second job was to maintain her drug addiction. Yeah. And so that's interesting captain because there there's two schools of thought here. I would think. His the one you have someone who's working two jobs because they're living above their means. And they're spending money on things like drugs, or then I go back to the statement, given by her mother of Briana was in the process of getting her life back together. So maybe she's working two jobs, and she's she's on on the bridge to better days. So, but but again, but what you tell your parents that they of seventeen and what they know is two different things. Well, but again, though that statement is is troubling as well because the statement of she is getting in the process of getting her life together. What does that mean what was going on? What was wrong before? This time period that she went missing in does that involve the use of hardcore drugs again like like saying to you over the phone last week. What your parents know of you at age of fifteen sixteen seventeen they don't know much unless you're giving them the information or they're suspicious of something. So they're kind of snooping, but guess what they can't snoop. If you're not living there. Right. So they're not going to pick up on who's calling you. They're not gonna pick up on who you'd left the house with right? They're not going to pick up on who came over to the house. These are all important low clues that parents have to pay attention to because your teenagers. Are normally not could be forthcoming with. Hey, you know, I've been hanging out with you know, this guy this guy, and we've been smoking crack, that's normally not how it goes down. So I don't play this never dinner conversation. It's I'm just saying I don't I don't blame her parents for not. Going. I'm just saying let's let's start assuming that they probably don't know everything that was going on in her life at that time, and I had to get me a second job because the old captain got me on a crack pipe. Anybody on the crack? Dear mother, the mother. So we have Vermont state police investigator Brian Miller who we've discussed before he said publicly that they knew brianna quote, experimented with a wide range of drugs. So the police seem to have some sort of evidence that this may have been going on and that they could not rule out drugs being connected to her disappearance. The other thing though, too. Is it might be possible that brianna had some kind of or was in some kind of relationship with one of the dealers that we discussed and this is low Jackson. The two of them had been seen together multiple times by Brannagh's, friends and family. We don't know if there was for sure overlay ship or any more about this. But what what I feel like is. It doesn't look good was was about the job of rumor about the second job was that she was actually in debt as far as owed money to people that she's getting drugs from right? So it's kind of there's two stories one that she wanted to get drugs. Well, multiple stories do have two jobs. Get your life together. Have two jobs. So you could pay for your drugs. Get a second job because you're in debt and you owe drug dealers money. They end the van order your band. The van shirt today there on the website true crime garage dot com. Click on the store page. Yep. And if you are looking for full for the full archive of true crime garage, you can get that for free on the Stitcher app. You download the Stitcher app, and you can find all of our episodes there. And if you wanna hear our premium show off the record you can do that at Stitcher premium in for a free month of listening, just go to Stitcher premium dot com slash true crime garage and use promo code garage. All right friends until tomorrow be good be kind and don't let.
True Crime Garage
Aired 5 months ago 47:00
REShow: Brian Banks and Aldis Hodge. Hour 2 (09-19-18)
Rich Eisen on demand, your show your schedule, fifteen minutes after ball dot com. Check out the casts at richeisenshow dot com. Volley beauties, new all in one hair-color kits, make it easy to color your hair at home, get everything. You need to color. Her putatively radiant results loved by professionals, open to everyone. Sally beauty. All right. Hour number two of the rich Eisen show is on the air. We're gonna have a fascinating chat chat with Brian banks who was wrongfully accused of rate and convicted of rape as a high schooler. One of the top prospects of playing football as a high schooler and he had you've got exonerated. He got out of jail and trying to put his life back together, got a tryout with the Atlanta, Falcons and the story of Brian banks who we first met Chris at the in the rich Eisen podcast studio years ago. There's new a new film on his life call Brian banks that premieres at the LA film festival, this Saturday's if you around, come out and see it and keep an eye peeled for where the movie's gonna come out in a theater near you. Greg Kinnear is in it. Sherri shepherd is in atop shady, AC directed. It. And all this Hodge plays Brian banks and Brian and all this are about to join us here in studio. It's gonna be a great conversation. Don't miss it. The Colorado Rockies dynamic outfielder Charlie Blackmon who homered and walked against Clayton Kershaw last night had Colorado and a position to win, but they lost the game extras last night prior to, tonight's big game in Colorado. I mean, in Los Angeles, he'll be calling into the show our number three, Jeff Pearlman, the author of football for buck about the USFL days. This'll be a lot of fun. You wanna talk about a book that's filled with drama and great stories. He'll be here in our number three to talk about that. We'll take your phone calls throughout the day at eight, four, four, two, four, rich. The new Bella checkbook that's out is a lot of people talking today. And one sound one quote in particular that got my attention that I hit pretty hard at the top of the show about a on named assistant saying at the time of the acquisition. The drafting of Jimmy Garoppolo said that the general sense of the coaching staff at the time. If you gave us any of the top fifteen, we could do it. Meaning that a bell check system could turn a top fifteen quarterback into. A franchise quarterback. I don't think the coaches view Thomas specialists. Everyone else in football does. Mr. craft thinks Tom is a greatest gift ever, but the coaches don't all my all my gosh, who the hell is that who thinks that. Who said that and do the coaches really have a prevailing thought that Tom Brady is not as special as the rest of football does. And does that coach still sit there in New England? I plead the fifth and does the fact that this coach and Bella check thought that in two thousand fourteen. By then he had one. Three rings that point time, right? Yeah, because they won the fourteen season and then after sixteen and so. Do they case he hadn't done it since the mid offs that he didn't have it anymore. Maybe it had been over ten years, and most importantly, what is Brady think about that walking around the building today. We're check held a press conference today saying that Josh Gordon trade that has been announced by both teams was officially announced by the NFL is complete and NFL shop dot com is selling his number ten, patriots jersey online. Bella check said today that the trae doesn't exist yet. We'll get to that in a second. That leads to our poll question. Chris. Brockman hit it over there, please? Yeah, a lot of drama going on in the NFL looking at which team, if you could be a fly on the wall and their locker room, who would you choose looking at the patriots Steelers and raiders right now it's split. Pat Steelers, both forty one percent raiders eighteen percent. We put the raiders there just because of them being in two in Gruden. I would love to hear gruden's telling this team and what these guys are saying to each other about Khalil Mack into their binding. Yeah, that's why we threw them there as for the Steelers. Antonio Brown is at work today. Now, we know he did not appear. Happy on the sidelines on Sundays loss to the chiefs, and we know that he was not at work on Monday when he was supposed to be. And we know that he got chippy on Twitter with a former member of the PR staff that since less the team that suggested that without Big Ben Antonio Brown wouldn't be paid in wouldn't be as good as he is, which is a ridiculous notion, a ridiculous notion. But he said trade me and we'll find out which in this day and age would Levy on bell, partying and South Vietnam, rather than playing with his teammates, him introducing new records and hanging out and being a star on TMZ rather than cashing eight hundred fifty, six thousand dollar checks every week for the Pittsburgh Steelers. It's a touchy subject. So Big Ben went on his local radio parents yesterday and said this competitor and wants to be the best in the world, and he probably has the best in the world. So he wants to make every play and catch every ball and every touchdown, which is what every player wants to every great guy wants to every player wants to make every play. I think he just was getting frustrated and these took it out on on people and you know, it's, I ran Randy a lot of credit for not losing it on him, but just one of those things that I think in the heat of the paddle, losing the football game, it's just tough on anybody. Okay. So. Big band. I gotta tell you Randi is their offensive coordinator, Randy Fisher, their coordinator, the former quarterback coach who is their new offense coordinator, not Todd Haley, because let's be honest, Ben is more comfortable with this and Haley had worn out. His welcome maybe with more people than Ben. I don't know. So so Ben saying the right thing about him, maybe being the best in the world? Yes, but there were still some conditional phrasing on that. And saying, you have to understand who Antonio Brown is, but then saying the offensive coordinator is good thing. He didn't go back at him even though you'd think the offense coordinator would understand what Antonio Brown's about anyway. So. It's just. So today it was take two with Big Ben in the locker room. Have you got a chance to speak a little bit? What was the source of this restraining? I think that you know, it's it's he is the best in the world and the best in the world. You want to help to spit you wanna win football games and all three because we're not winning right now. It's early in the season. You know, it's it's two games in guys have done things. Obviously, first game, we had some elements that didn't let me get him the ball, maybe as much as I should have. And last week they put a lot of guys on him, but but other guys are open to, so I'm not worried about AB. He'll be just fine. You know, in terms of his Twitter, whatever he didn't attack me or anything like that. He just, I think was more attacking someone that wanted to get a rise out of them. So I know that anto didn't really feel that way feel that way not wanting to be traded. Is that what it meant. By the way you notice the maybe was gone. He's the best in the world? Yeah. Look, I, I root for Big Ben the way he plays football. It's always exciting, and the Steelers aren't nearly as interesting the drama that he brings for us. Hopefully it's great and the Steelers aren't nearly as interesting without Ben Rothlisberger not even close now, Mason Rudolph, it's not forget before him. The most interesting quarterback was Cordell there. I mean, right. First ballot hall of Famer mean the forget the Bubby Brister Tommy Maddox riptide they were in before this guy, this guy walking boots and senators. Ben kind of leads the league in just saying one sentence too much. Thing. Randy didn't go back at them, you know, even though we all understand that he wants to, you know, he's maybe the best today's the best in the world, not just upset because he's search circumstances. Didn't let me get him the ball. So what didn't like was it is injury was at the coordinating of the offense was at the Defoe. I mean, what? What was the offense of line on protecting? Was it what didn't let him, you know that there's this phrasing in there that will always allow us to latch onto something. Never his fault. We gotta get him in the room with Costanza just no one leave the room. Just know what your line is. I just said my lot. That's it about out. We gotta get him in the room Costanza. News update. Let's do it. Okay. The federal live report rock men with the new brought you by truecar with terms like dealer price list, price invoice truecar, shows you what other people paid for the car you want. You can recognize good price where you're birdie to buy newer us, visit truecar to enjoy more confident car buying experience. What do you have over there? Kris. Okay. So you want to start with the Bill salary. You don't wanna start with Josh Gordon practice today always is their, yes. So the patriots practice went off about forty minutes ago. He is there. Adam Schefter saying, Josh Gordon is present wearing number ten, and then the Boston gloves, Jim McBride to video of Josh Gordon doing some drills with his patriot receiver teammates. Philp Dort said Chris, HOGAN, okay. And the rest is so there is is out there. He's out there practicing, which means he's got a shot to play Sunday night, but an hour and a half before this Bill check met the media and add this to say about Josh Gordon. Okay, actually about eight. Here's here's just a gel sense of it. Here's a general sense of it is that he said that it was not a done deal yet. And he said that essentially in the fact that. Knowing who's in the building or on the way to the building? Yeah. Said the deal wasn't finalized waiting on some language. You know, like we said, language tweaks and what have you. Okay. Okay. Moving on down in Tampa Bay. Sean Jackson is a big fan of Ryan Fitzpatrick white. You ask? Well, Ryan Fitzpatrick is throwing him the football. The John Jackson didn't get the ball nearly as much last season with James Winston. And I had this to say about playing the hot hand tire right now the way team rally behind him and just playing lights, football, you have to kind of honor it. You know what I'm saying? No, you can't take. Got the house fire right now. It's like NBA. Jim used to play in via January, John, whoever that high fire, shoot, man, it's true. He's hot. You had this four downs, right? What is it bucks do with James Winston. They have him sit there because he's twenty one million dollars, and he has not been in the building with Ryan Fitzpatrick weaken weak out as a starting quarterback. He is not been in the building weaken week out with him, not being the lead top dog of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. And if this is something that he needs, this is a guy who's who's won everywhere his, I miss start of his career of his life happened just last year. He's had everything handed to him. He's been protected at every single level of entire career and life. Maybe it's time. Sorry, James, you number one overall, you say you wanted to be different. You're being given one last shot. You gotta have the year button and guess what? Last year when we were eaten ws and fighting on the field and losing games and not having our offense run to a ties deficiency. You in the starter. Now it's the exact opposite. We're winning games. We're hanging ws. We're not eating them. And the quarterback there is showing everybody how you not only run a team, but run along them by telling Sean Jackson, I'm gonna wear your gear if we win and apparently Sean Jackson told Ryan Fitzpatrick is he told DP yesterday? No, the answer is when we win. Okay. So guess what they won. He put on the Sean Jackson's gear and Sean Jackson who is freaking out last year because he wasn't getting the ball, right? Because he wasn't getting the ball when he was open because the offense wasn't going deep as well as it should in a consistent basis. He's all smiles now. Area camper. He's leaving league in receiving yards going in week three. I'm telling you my fourth down. My heartache was that he's gonna start every single one of the games. 'cause when are you going to take him out when he has to bad games in a row when it's run its course will management call down, say, we need to see if this kid is learned it gotten it before we have to be on the hook for the twenty some odd million next year. Maybe. But I make sense. So that's the answer is James is going to have to sit there and watch, and by the way, be the backup because Ryan Fitzpatrick may get hurt, you need might name and get in there. And guess what when the job is yours? Don't give it up and there's somebody right in front of you who shows you the Tennessee that's required in order to achieve that goal. Interesting situation, juries couple notes about the Philadelphia Eagles dealing with some injuries. J. John is doing with the back injured Darren sproles the hamstring Doug Peterson Bo said there today, but they did add Josh Adams from the practice squad to the running back backfield just in case also they brought in Jordan Mathews back. Remember they traded him to buffalo. He went from buffalo to New England didn't make their roster. He's now back in Philadelphia. Looks like it's going to be a couple more weeks out Sean, Jeffrey Super Bowl, odds, rich. These have been updated. Now, New England has been the favourite throughout the off season and through the first two weeks, but now the Los Angeles Rams are your betting Super Bowl favorite according to west gate Rams now, nine to two to win the Super Bowl, patriots six to one Jacksonville, eight to one. I would agree as you know, I have the Rams over the patriots when it's all said and done. And we'll see what the patriots looked like with Gordon when he's on the field and when that Ohman returns, and we'll see what that happens for the no total win toll total. We'll see how Jacksonville matriculate s- and we'll see if we see each other those teams again in in in January and who can. Rise up to join that group. And as I said in my second down an hour, number one, the chiefs are sneaky league. Yeah, and they're a sneaky. Good bed at twelve to one right now. Is that a good? Those good aunt they're falling, okay. They're fallen. Same as the Packers could see on your list right here. Packers won dealers twenty two one Aaron Rodgers. If we're hearing that that that neither had him limping around against the Vikings is going to cause them good hit two months to heal. That's the problem. That's probably okay. Let's get to this crazy Red Sox stories. So apparently a banner fell off a tr- a delivery truck and three friends according to FOX twenty five up there in Boston's Ted Daniel three fence driving and Somerville mass. Notice something along the road wrapped in Brown paper. They pulled over, looked at it, picked it up, opened it, and it is this giant two thousand eighteen alias champs banner that is going to. Eventually hang in Fenway park. So how do we know that? That's an authentic Red Sox. We're gonna use made banner. I don't think we know for sure, but it looks like all the other ones that are hanging park. So we now have a new. We now have a new twist to the what of JJ watt had done it. Segment here. Well. Where you find something not a problem or mirth full? Well, hold on until JJ watt could have done it understand that they're running away with it in the same boat as printing Super Bowl shirts and having them ready just in case. But what if the Indianapolis Colts done that? What if they were two games in front of the AFC south and by early December had a banner like that found, would you find it as Myrtle or as funny or whimsical. Now now because they hang banners for playoff appearances. All right. Get get to who's who's doing Super Bowl, fifty three. It's been rumored not confirmed yet, but it looks like it's going to be maroon five performing at halftime of this year. Super Bowl in Atlanta, and I turned to rich Eisen show DJ music expert, Saudi audio, executive, your thoughts on this choisir. No, I'm I. It should be Atlanta rappers Amine Brockman have been talking about it for a long while. Yeah, ludicrous. And those guys should be the. Yeah, change it up. I'm the rock stuff's good. You know me, I love it. Yes, but you got to realize that the. The network that is doing this show? Yes. Or having the show on their air? Yes. Is the home of James Nansen CBS America's most watched network? Yeah, he could. He would probably think the Luda Luda speaks to the CBS actually like it, and I think they should start high point on this is they had a chance to really celebrate the culture of Atlanta and what they're known for and all the great musicians who've come out of that area and they're choosing maroon five, put the NFL doesn't do that. Super Bowl doesn't do that. They chose a Rolling Stones from town. You gotta be kidding me. You could've you could've had Stevie Wonder and and and smokey. We could have had reefa. May she rest in peace instead they went with Mick Jagger. Let's see. It was like a larger profit visit scream of Detroit league. But what I'm just saying that it's not like they've done it in other places and they snubbed Atlanta in this. But I'm saying they had a real opportunity took a big with. Yup, on it. Maroon five. They're great ban live though. I mean, they really you gotta guess Adam LeVine, of course, but I'm just saying this is the kind of missed opportunity. Good news update, good to see Brian banks. How are you sir? Guber all this Hodge. Good to see you too. Brian banks are right there on the on the rich Eisen show green room couch when we come back Brian banks and all this Hodge, if you don't know Brian story, you should stay tuned to hear it is worth your time and it is remarkable and it's great to see you here sir, released. Great to see you that's next year on this edition of the rich Eisen show. Here's some useful cartoonists. You might not be aware of a coffee filter and a little bit of olive oil can clean your interior, removing excess weight from your car will improve gas mileage, and you can place your key fob to your chin to increase its range. Weird, right. Well, here's another tip. You might also not know about truecar also helps people get used cars. That's right. Truecar's just for buying new cars with their certified dealer network and nationwide. Inventory of nearly one million used cars. You'll enjoy real pricing on actual inventory and simpler buying experience whether you buy new or used and with truecar users can see what others paid. So they know if they're getting a good deal before buying. They're also more likely to enjoy a faster buying experience by connecting with truecar certified dealers when you're ready to buy a new or used car, check out truecar and enjoy a more confident car buying experience. Some features not available in all states. Football season is here, and no one covers put ball like cast one sports net. We've got you covered on a daily basis with Dan, Patrick rich Eisen. This might be just a walk in the park RJ bells dream preview and Ross Tucker's fantasy feast podcast. They're just creating more work for me at this point. We also have Jim Harbaugh with attack each day and revenge the jocks with Martellus Bennett. Football's the ultimate soap opera. So download leash shows in more each week on podcast, one sports dot com. Sally duties, new all in one hair-color kits, make it easy to color your hair at home, get everything you need to color. Cute. Radiant results loved by professionals, open to everyone. Sally beauty. Okay, welcome back to the show. And the gentlemen at the very far end of our guest row enjoyed him in movies, like straight outta Compton and Christmas movie, sequel die hard with a vengeance. He was in that Christmas movie sequel. Oh, don't worry rocking. We're gonna get to that with all this Hodge in this conversation at some point, Tom and and Friday night lights in which I also enjoyed your work. Good to see you back. You're on the show. This Hodge to your left in between the two of us does a guy who I got to meet at our podcast days back in the day at the NFL network will several years ago when he had just finally gotten clear of being falsely accused of rape, trying to get into football once again after being falsely accused and having a promising football uprise cut short good to see you, Brian banks and all this. You play Brian banks in the new film, Brian banks that's about to open right here in the LA film festival, so good to see both you guys here. So before we get into this, all this with you about playing Brian Brian, I wanna give you the floor for folks who may not know your store. You're from here in Long Beach in California and you you were you verbally committed to US's verbally committed to USC linebacker. You play. Linebacker. I was live Lebanon nation at the end of my junior year Pekar was a head coach at the time over at the at USC and we developed a good relationship with good friendship. And I had all the intentions in the world after my senior year to move onto plan ball with the Trojans, just like Willie mcginest from your school little out the willy willies legend in our city. Right? You know, watching him come out of the same program to same system into make it onto the league. It was, I mean, beyond exp- inspire. And then what happened. The least expected. I went to a known area. My high school campus was a known make house spot when with the girl that I've known since middle school we made out, we didn't have sex. But by the ended that day I was being arrested and accused of rape the same day that I was arrested was the same day that everything began and and I did not come home until five years later, the age of twenty two after serving eighty five percent of a six year sentence for for rape conviction, which then was followed by an additional five years on strict custody parole as a registered sex offender can live within two thousand feet of any score park add to use impossible to find work. There was really no social life there at all for ten years of my life. I lived the life of a convicted sex offender and all. To to to come to an end. When this this girl came forward and into, she lied about everything. Why did she lie about everything you know to this day we still don't know what start to lie. I can only make an assumption in my assumption after these after all the years that had passed by is that maybe she didn't want me to go back to my friends to announce what we just did at a fear that it would embarrass her maker Luca certain type away. And so she went on to beat me to that by saying she was forced into doing. That's the only thing I can. That's my guess because she's never taken four responsibility for the lie. She's always pointing to finger at other people. It started off as a small and because other people got involved, grew bigger, bigger and bigger, bigger bigger. So you know, it's funny that you said there's a scene in a movie actually where the district attorney asked me that same question, why would she lie? And you know, the response was I, you know, I don't really think it's my responsibility to it a question for her. You know, we still don't know and all this. When I hear about the Brian Bank story, it's been. It's been because when it came out, I definitely heard about it. Sure. Twelve thirteen to thirteen. Yeah, I think that I, I kinda start hearing about it and I was like, really messed up and then movie comes around. I'm like, this sounds really familiar. You know, I started doing the research and I say, oh, wait a minute. Yeah, I heard about this of close. Just because of how unfair was, you know why I'm stuck in my brain because you look at all the facts. There you say somebody who was sleeping at the wheel. There's a lot of people not doing their job because nobody checking or looking out for him. Well, the legal system obviously is a complex head fickle system, and I know those two that I'm sure you have strong awards for that Bryant, but you took a plea deal what, what happened with that? So is it was a situation where I had been incarcerated for nine months fighting this case and was about to select a jury to go to trial. I was facing forty one years to life, tried as an adult at the age of sixteen and my lawyer beat me to an interview room before going into the courtroom and said, I just came up with this amazing deal with the district attorney's office this deal. You must take a already offered me. Eighty five years in prison, eighteen years in prison, nine years in prison, but there was no DNA evidence. There was no DNA evidence. There was no physical evidence. There was no witnesses. She has six different statements and testimony to what happened. Everything was in my favor. It should have been a walk in coordinator, easy dismissal. But because I had an adequate council, I was pretty much forced into taking a plea which I thought would have gotten me probation. It turned out to be six years in prison, and I had to serve eighty five percent of that time. I did five years in two months of that time all because of the the, the assurance from my then attorney, this would all be figured out, you'll be, okay, we'll we'll, we'll get this cleared. You won't see any prison time, but if you go in that courtroom, a big black teenager, they will see you guilty, you know, you're, you're look at you. This was the advice that I was given at the age of seventeen and had already been incarcerated for year. And I'm sitting here contemplating, literally, given ten minutes to makes us decis. Do I walk into this courtroom and selected jury risk my entire life in prison for something I didn't do a walk into this courtroom and take a deal plea out a crime that I didn't even commit. You know, I realized that moment after you know, fighting this case for that long that I wasn't going home. Brian banks here the Brian Bank story. Again, Brian banks in the LA film festival this Saturday, and then the eventual theater near you for this film coming in all this Hodge playing you Brian in this film. So what what was it like playing Brian in this film? Because eventually it, it starts with you being on parole? Correct. That's this film starts. Okay. And so what was it like for you playing Brian from this point. Emotionally intense. Man, it was, I'll say, was a really beautiful in for two, it's experience because it helps you just put a lot of things in perspective and understand humility and being grateful the whole time we will work in like, Brian, I began our relationship about a month and a half, maybe two months before we got the set because we started in the gym. I was looking for a training because I had to give 'em away in China, my home and I was like, hey, you know, I called a Brown, would you do? And then I was like, wait a minute. What. You know, and that's where we started a fellowship and brotherhood, and I got to learn who he was the person which was really great because, you know, as I said before you, you learn a lot about a person when you see how they deal with pain. And in the gym, we're dealing with physical pain, and there's a mentality of don't worry about it, get through go beyond, and then you start understanding how he can deal with the mental and spiritual pain of being left alone being dealing with the shame of knowing that you're innocent when everybody else says that you're wrong and you're treated as such. But. Gave me such a breath of fresh air. One are typically because as an actor, I wanna fill my life with meaningful work in this is some of the proudest work I've ever done in my third year career. In fact, the proudest role that I feel like I've taken on now only because I feel like I get to learn, I get to share what I've learned, hopefully inform other people. But I do hope that I will help in honoring your life because you know, I feel like he's a martyr. He went to what he went through, but how rare is it to go through all that? You know, cars rated nine months, five years in prison, the five years on parole and then come out to clear your own name. You actually make it to the NFL. You know, you work for the NFL. You live the dream, and now you have a movie being made about your life. There's a reason for that. It's all it's there's a pattern to it's all laid out and there's a. Reason for it, and he chose to take his situation, not let it on him and use it for what it was intended for, which is to teaching and hopefully make things better for the people. So they can realize that they're still problems in the world, and we're hopefully trying to be a part of the solution. So it was really a fantastic experience outside of just the the satisfaction of having a great role as an actor. It helped educate me on life a little bit more as a man while said, that's incredible. And so Pete Carroll was interestingly enough. One of the first guys to give you shot to try in the NFL. The day that I was exonerated may twenty four, twenty twelve. We walked out of a courtroom right in front of a sea of reporters, and one of the first questions was free. What are you going to do this freedom? And I looked in camera. I said. I've been training for the shot at the NFL idea. Phil, if there's any team that wants to give me a shot, you give me a call. I guarantee you, I will out work anybody on your team and the bottom one day my phone rang and there was a brother at the other end going. Yeah, I'm looking for a linebacker, you know, rock and find one. I said, well, yeah, you, you got the right number of this. He's me man, speaker, he called. Yeah, he called me right away and it was. It was crazy. It was like recruiting dance all over again from here we are when high-school college. Now you know, exonerate in NFL coach and he kept real. He's gonna phone. He said, look be, I'm gonna be honest. You've been on the game ten years. You probably can't do right. Yeah, right. Yeah. But you know, I love you. Yes, story and what you've been through in what you've persevered through, and I remember you back in, you know, back in high school days, you're great player. I led to give me an opportunity and luckily I had been training for this opportunity when I tried out for Seattle, get invited back to training camp, ended up not making it needed some more, you know, rediscovery on the the knowledge side of the game, and eventually worked my way through a few trials and signing with the falcons. What was that like for you? Being on an NFL grid iron after all you've been through Brian, you know, as funny because having missed my opportunity at the time that I was supposed to make it to the league, and then going as a twenty eight year old rookie. It was kind of an experience. It was kind of an experience. I felt like even maybe it should be experiencing this. Because it was a dream that was taken away. It was something I went and reached back for, right, but at the same time, it was kind of like going back into my own past to relive dream that I never got to relive. And so as I was living in and I'm running out into the field and the flames are going up in smoke and the crowd is going crazy. My mom's in the stands crying, it took me back. I felt like I was that young sixteen year old boy that was taken off the streets again. And it was kind of like I got a chance to to take a little piece from a history that I didn't get a chance to live. And in a way it's something I will never forget. I always take it with me. I'll always remember the four games that I played was my. My Super Bowl was my, you know, my my trophy, my, it was everything. It was everything and to see my mom, you know happy and in a pleasant in and free of worry in those moments. It's. Never forget it. Never forget it. And it's something that I can't experience and then walk away and keep it to myself. I gotta share through this film as well. So what do you, what would you want people to take away then Brian, from your story through all this is you know acting through this film through your whole story. You want people to take away from that. We have a system of judicial system that's not perfect that has flaws like anything else. That we need to restore and develop moral and ethical obligations into our judicial system. Furthermore, that we're going to go through things in life that are that are of the unwanted things that we didn't know. We were going to experience things that we don't want to experience, but it's not what you go through, but how you allow to fact you what you choose to do moving forward in always tell people. One of the first things I share with him. We first met, I shook his hand. I said, look mitt on judge me by what I've been through. Judge me about how I dealt with it because there in lies, true character, you know. So for me, I had to, I had to wake up one day in a very dark place and remind myself that I didn't have to travel far to find the light. I was the light in the very dark place, and it took like anything master took time in practice. But eventually I made my way out of a dark hole, but Furthermore, turn right back around and reach my hand in there to pull out the next person. Now, I think. That this, what the story is this movie is going to show portray is the the, the the spirit of resiliency to never give up to never quit, but to also wanna see other people be treated as they should be fairly an accordingly. And that starts with changing, hopefully, laws and policies within our judicial system. Do you think the NFL players that are are taking a moment. Social activism were blocking arms raising fists and or taking any or doing so for Parton. You Bri rephrase that question. Do you think that what they are protesting against in the NFL is in part representing you? I think that I think that the protests has been has been established that it's about police brutality, the unfairness and how people call are being treated by the police departments across the nation. I think that this story, what this is going to focus on is subject such as how people of color. Are are treated in and dealt with in our legal process and our legal system. Well, Doug Baldwin is and along with Malcolm Jenkins are both in just two separate parts of the country going into state houses talking about this very issue. Dog ball when connected with the attorney general of the state of Washington on these various knits I, it's a issue that we should be doing a lot more for, you know, you think about ninety five ninety seven percents of all criminal cases in US ends in some form of a plea bargain, only three to five percent of people will actually see trial. That means you're being forced into deals, feared into deals, exhausted into deals. I was a juvenile tries tried as an adult. So there's a lot of different components and things within our system that when you think about it, yes, race does become a part in it because a lot of these people who are experiencing our people color and people of color African Americans, we make up sixteen percent at a US pop. Relation but make up over sixty percent of our incarceration population. So when you look at those numbers, it kind of answers us up at Brian banks free on Twitter. I follow you with you all at all. This Hodge go check out again. If you're in Los Angeles, Brian banks premiering at the film festival this Saturday and keep an eye peeled for when it comes to town near you. Great to see Brian banks. It really is. It's always a pleasure to say, I, I know you really one day I can run at forty next to you. By the way, I, I would love to see that I loved see actually probably be seen it from behind you. Pass me. We could do it. We'll do a good seawall. Okay. All this Hodge and Brian banks right here on the rich Eisen show, hey, this is Jordan harbinger used to host the art of charm podcast, but now it's time for something new, the Jordan harbinger show, did you know you can be entertained and actually get a boost in your life at the same time on this show, we dig into the superpowers of the world's most interesting thinkers and top talents. Then we deliver them to you right into your ears, but I get it. We're not all superheroes. That's why we give you their blueprint so you can live what you listen after a thousand interviews learning five languages and getting arrested in a country that doesn't even exist anymore. I'm now more ready than ever to introduce you to the Jordan harbinger show. Listen free to the Jordan harbinger show available on apple podcasts, podcast, one dot com. And the podcast one app. Hey, listeners just wanted to take a minute to thank all of my great sponsors and all of you great listeners for supporting this podcast certainly couldn't do this show without either of you. I wanted to remind you that you can support my sponsors by going to my show page at podcast, one dot com. Clicking on the support, this podcast button, and there you'll see all of my wonderful sponsors that help make this show possible. So thank you for downloading subscribing. And of course supporting now back to the show. Stay tuned for sixty seconds of AP news, headlines right after this podcast. Beauties new, only one hair-color kits, make it easy to color your hair at home, get everything you need to color. Putatively radiant results loved by professionals, open to everyone. Sally beauty. Wing yard. Dodgers are going to win it on a walk, fight. Chris Taylor, read it to the doctors lethal Rockies by gave a ham with ten. Taylor will walk off winner going yards. Charley Steiner with the call, the beginning of feel it as ravine the beginning to feel really good about themselves that they wanna game in which Clayton Kershaw appeared to be beaten by Colorado, and then they came back to win. They now lead the National League West by game and a half. The man who homered off Clayton Kershaw last night to Charlie Blackmon the bearded one. I mean, who's got the better beard in sports right now. Ryan Fitzpatrick Charlie Blackmon. I mean, beard on beard. That's that's something else right there. Justin Turner. I mean, it's a lot beards in that in that spot last night, I'm sure also including in the stands here in Los Angeles. Hey, now. Now is this thing on. Most wants to fond digs on celebrity family feud, everybody gotta seek that out reminded for television only audience next hour show. Steve Harvey is as good as anybody, his when reacting to an awkward moment and playing it up for comedy. Well, he's a stand up so he can think quick on his face comedians can think quickly on their feet, but on live television when it comes to tape television. He's good at those game show moments. Yeah, it's the font digs, I mean, all all my gosh. You've got gotta seek it out. My pillow brings you go in yard is always the four pack special is still going on. What that is is you put in my promo code of rich, you put in my promo code of rich in the four pack, special spot at my pillow dot com order, two standard Queen or king premium pillows and two going repeals, and you save over fifty percent with my promo code of rich again, mypillow dot com. Click on the four pack, special promo code rich. It's. Comfortable pillow you'll ever own what a great guy. Brian banks is, and he is going to have a a masculine child a baby boy's on the way. Congratulations. And he's movies made out of based on his story. How about Pete Carroll. I want to, you know what I mean? Pete, we'll give you chance to give your shot to always compete. He was, he's complaint you. I mean, you go to Long Beach poly, and you go to USC that's Willie mcginest classes thousand three. Just taken away from them the preseason with the falcons. Twenty thirteen. That was great. Yeah, we have Adam on the podcast just before that. Right. She just for that. Yeah. I've been six years. Great story right there. Okay. So Charlie Blackman's gonna join us top of the next hour football for a buck. Jeff Pearlman has written a book, the crazy rise in crazier demise of the USFL. This'll be fun stuff that will be the stories that came out of that was Josh Gordon's still on the patriots before. Now we Al is maroon five update real quick. What are you? They are not the halftime. NFL statement, Super Bowl, tradition speculate about the performance of the Pepsi halftime show. We are continuing to work with Pepsi on our plans, but did not have any announcements to make it will be another epoch show. Can I? Can I interpret that for you? Sure. Somebody told variety what they shouldn't say because the way CBS the way the NFL and Pepsi likes to do it is making announcement on their own at a halftime near you. Yeah. So somebody let the of the bag. There's a mohawk right now like no way out going on in front of. Okay. Who's your who's the yori whose the whose? Okay, I don't want to go to spoiler alert. Yeah, there's a mole hunt going on right now. I'd be stunned if it's not maroon five, Charlie Blackmon, Jeff Pearlman you our number three coming up. On this season of cocaine files won't close the book on the Golden State killer a serial killer. So prolific investigators spent years thinking he was three different people. Think this offender is the most brazen in American history. We'll find cryptic clues business cards diaries into stones whose buffet that left is calling card. She's the crag get new episodes of cold case files every Tuesday on podcast one. And your favorite podcast app. Sally beauty new, only one hair-color kits, make it easy to color your hair at home, get everything you need to color. Putatively radiant results loved by professionals, open to everyone. Sally beauty. Office shooting. I'm Ed Donahue with an AP news minute police near Madison Wisconsin, say shots were fired at an office building in Middleton, Wisconsin. The suspect is dead. Injured intervene treated at local hospitals for gunshot wounds, officers responded, engage the suspect he was shot by officers. Hot meals were handed out in North Carolina today to victims of hurricane Florence. Among those handing out the meals. President Trump has the house. The president got a look at damage in a neighborhood in new Bern, debris big and small is around. I think it's incredible. I think it's incredible to see what we're seeing. His vote. What happened, but this just came here, you know. The president also saw storm damage in South Carolina. He arrived by helicopter in an airport near the city of Conway, which is near hard, hit Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. I'm Ed Donahue.
The Rich Eisen Show
Aired 4 months ago 67:34
Nick McDonnell 10/23/18
Yeah. Hey, this is the moment. I'm Brian Koppelman. Thanks for listening. This is a super treat for me. I guess, based Nick McDonald's. One of the most accomplished young young young ish, but still young people I've ever come across. I, I heard of Nick when he wrote his first novel twelve at seventeen years old, dick amount when you're seventeen wrote it when you were eighteen right, slacker. And any wrote a novel that I think only gets more more relevant more resonant now and all that I love. And I reached out to him to tell him this years ago, and it's a book called inexpensive education. And he wrote that at twenty five about experiences at Harvard and about the intelligence community. And he has a staggering new book out called the bodies in person. That's not an awful. That is a nonfiction account of. Of what he saw and learned going around the world to forward areas in the endless conflict between the United States and much of the rest of the world in primarily Muslim countries. And it's a book that that that aims to. Show us the cost of these conflicts by depicting the lives of the people on the ground who were killed and the people trying to find or rescue or deal with them, and Nick McDonald. Thanks for being here. Thank you Ryan from me Yemen. It's total pleasure. Also, I wanna say Nick is one of only two people, David Levin, and I've ever written the script with and we wrote a pilot together three of us, which was a great experience though. We never really took it out to the town yet for variety of reasons. I think one day I look forward to doing that me to us, we do as well what a joy it was to work with you, dude, because your level of professionalism and focus was really inspiring to us and, and it was really, really a great thing to get to collaborate with someone at as focused and thoughtful as you are. Thank you. Well, let's cook up another project. Okay. Let's do that after the podcast. So. Man, I been thinking a lot about if there's a unified. Sort of a unified idea or theme you've been working on in all of these books. And I wanna start here and then I want to go back and talk by by graphically. But it occurs to me that. That you see professionalism and duty as a kind of a high calling, but also was a path to justification. As a past a to atrocity or the last hope against the trough sedate occurs to me that we really searching for. And you can tell me if I'm wrong about this or trying to understand or trying to do in writing is to define honor to locate it to live up to it to see if it can actually still grow to maturity in our world. And it seems you're also interested in its cousin dignity and even as young writer, the absence of these things seem to bother you in a primal way. So can you talk about your mission broad question because I know the way that you think and talk. So can you talk a little bit about your mission, our world and the new book through that prism a little bit. Brian boy, if I began every morning with that kind of speech going into my work day, I would be a much more cheerful guy. Thank you for that. That's very generous way of thinking about really the work that I do. I think the first thing we should say that a lot of what we're going to talk about today is not cheerful. It is not fun. It is just about as grim as it gets and. Though I appreciate the. Out professional, we all were when we were working together. I don't go through my day with that kind of grimness. So the things that we're gonna talk about now I sort of wanna preface by saying that if you let them hang over your head all day long, it will be very dark way of going to the world. Well, that that's true in that world. We are in that world and your hope. As I say, this question, I'm asking about honor and dignity, I think, speaks to the path out. I hope so. And. And I do think about the question of honor. The reason I got into the kind of work that I do is because I. I would've novel and I was asked by a reporter at the time, a good friend called in feld who's a great writer himself. He was the Hong Kong bureau chief for time magazine, and he read the book I wrote and he said, would you be interested doing some journalism? And I had not thought carefully about it, but I left the chance to do that. And when I came back from Hong Kong, I had a little bit of journalism bug, and then I also went to college, turned eighteen was able to vote and started thinking about what it meant to be an American, which is a very pretentious thing for eighteen year old to say a little bit less. So maybe for grown person to say, but that was what I started thinking about. And as soon as I sort of thinking about that. Spend eleventh attacks number eleven th happened, and we as a country invaded Afghanistan. I thought, well, this is a lot of stuff that has happening in my name in American and something about that didn't feel quite right to me. So I wanted to go and see what actually was being done in my own name. And that's how it started. And then from from that point on, I used that as a prison. I thought that, well, what America's doing is in sense what I am doing a part of me that is this and. And that has been troubling to ever since. Well, this question of what it means to be an American meant. One thing for most of our lives or at least there was a story. We tell ourselves about what it meant for most of our lives and. Your books. Twelve its own thing, but it does. I believe also deals with the idea of honor and dignity away, but certainly an expensive education is talking about. The idea of protecting this Morphou sway of life. I think that's right. And I realize an answering this question by talking about America. I jumped laterally a bit from the question of honor and dignity. So let's think about the question of honor for a second. That's a good word that doesn't come up very often an interview, and I haven't counted most over the last nearly ten years doing this sort of work around the American military. The American military takes honor extremely seriously. So do do the military's that I have also met with the Afghan military. I've been very lucky to have friends in the Afghan special forces these guys who do with the American military does, but often they do it when the special forces, but the conventional soldiers do it barefoot in mountains with no thanks and all of that sort of stuff. And they're doing it in their own backyard. And so the question of honor for them and what do do you live up to and and what on are you. Honors actually in the book. And so this idea about that the greatest honor is to obey orders the best of your -bility, but the even greater honors disobey when it is necessary to disobey. And that there is honor in. In breaking the rules as much as there is on executing an idea, a conventional idea to the best of your abilities. This is why I think. You work really crucial right now, man. Because whatever side of the political spectrum one is on, there's no denying that honor as an ideal has receded in the minds of those charged with running the country. They barely even use the word, but it seems in your books. People also. People in power or people trying to entice other people. Hold out the possibility of honor as a way to manipulate. And then in the new book, honoring the dead, honoring those who try to despite circumstance do their duty seems very important to you. Wanna talk a little bit about the new book, what it is, why you wrote it and I would frame it. I would ask you to frame it in in terms of places that honor and dignity and duty are are leaving and how how you and and others. And I know you don't like to put yourself in your book does put you in. So I think it's important to talk about those things. I'll give you an example in two thousand sixteen. I think it was in may of two thousand sixteen. I went to what used to be Saddam Hussein's palace in Baghdad and I went with several of the members of the Baghdad foreign press corps to Washington. Post the New York Times there, I think, and writers throughout buyers I was there and we were getting a briefing from a Colonel and we were talking about civilian casualties. And at this point in the War I had in that particular iteration of the War, I had personally documented dozens and dozens of civilian casualty incidents. I had interviewed families. I had found photographs. I had sifted through rubble. I had walked around these buildings. And. Probably fifty or so by that time, just me and we were sitting in this briefing room talking to this guy, and we started asking about seven casualties. How many civilian casualties have there been in the war? So far, sir, you might say, all the might not depending on how you feel about the role of the American media, but it can be a play thing to say anyway, and he said, I don't remember. It forbade him, but he said, I don't remember. And they looked at a cap in the side said, do you remember? And the guy said, I don't remember either. He said, I don't know. Maybe forty thirty twenty. And this seemed to me something that was not honorable. It was not honorable because not only did it respect to those people who died, but it was not honorable even to the notion of fact, and the honor of specificity and facts has been something very much on that mind. And I think that you deal with that too, in the way that this is something that crosses the boundary between fiction nonfiction also, and there is room for all kinds of tabula some in fiction, whether that's a word or not as a fact that could be looked up, but. I, I love the fiction, which deals in facts. Yes, except not in the real world. That's the, that's the thing you're trying to, but what what made you want to and then we will we, we will. We will go backwards, but I, this ties into it because one of the things you're talking about also is loyalty. That is a disloyal. The thing that that officer said is on its face disloyal, right. Well, on the one hand, he could have orders from somebody immediately above him who says, you have to hold the line on this y or on this, not on our knowledge of repeating disaster ignorance, and there are a lot of ways you can parse that. But in the larger sense, I believe it is disloyal because the greatest interest of the United States served by facts by here's what is real by what we can see, and it is more honorable to stick to that stuff which is a little bit preachy but is necessary to remind ourselves and one thing also I think that you guys do also. The hardest thing is a writer and journalist is to say the obvious thing to say, the thing that is right in front of all of our faces. Yeah. And to make that interesting to make it powerful, Dave. And I talk about that all the time often. For a variety of reasons. Often you don't wanna do that because you don't wanna be pandering or preaching or boring, but also facing the stuff is crucial and then revealing which you really do in in in your work. But I was thinking about loyalty to because in all of your work, the fiction on the nonfiction. You deal with the question of loyalty any and you seem not just to deal with the thing about honor that I wanna I wanna keep drilling down on because it's very easy to dress Hemingway comparisons in the way that you open the new book. And I, I'm sure that was intentional on some level because you're honoring this tradition in the that you're that you're in, but you earn it. I think, oh, I'm gonna parenthetical walkway from the paired question. Because when you said a second ago pretentious for seventeen year old, I've, I've had a few prodigies on the podcast and. I'm friends with a couple one. I've known my whole life. Are you. Are you glad to be older now? Like the prodigy thing become tiresome to you. Being referred to that way being called a young genius like de wanna before you're thirty four, you wish you were Ford party. Wish you could just people like me would stop looking at you as the bright boy. I listened to a podcast last night. This is an answer to your question. I promise and it's a wonderful podcast. I don't listen to that many yours among them, and this one was called everything is alive and everything is live is interviews with an animate objects and last night they did one with a grain of sand. Grain of sand said that it was about two hundred and fifty thousand years old. I am happy to be thirty four years old. You're happy to be the time. You're pleased to be thirty that works for you for me. But I guess I'm trying to ask you though, and is. Let's do. I mean, because what did that? Because rate some of your, it's funny talking, you look, you knew you were walking into. I mean, you had to know what you're walking into a little bit. Because you know how much admiration I have for you and fondness, right and warmth, and but I think and I think it's easy to. Saying that's pretentious question to ask it seventeen. I don't think that is. And I think that's a reaction to the position founders and. I guess I'm wondering if you've sent the sized all that yet for yourself. I think that synthesizing all of this stuff is the work of lifetime, and I think that I was very fortunate to be in the situation I was when I was seventeen and and the work that I did was the combination. It's the stew that makes anybody do any work, and you can break down the constituent parts of that as you like. And I like to do so this. Why like to read interviews with writer? That's why like to talk to people about the history of their work. I'm not sure exactly what to tell you about how how I feel about it's very nice to be called a prodigy. I don't think it's exactly accurate. I was not composing sonatas when I was four years old marts Mozart, you know prodigy. I am a seventeen year old with a who with bookworm. Right? Yes. But there is something of the, you know, the glass family in in your story. Right? Is that fair? You're nodding along? Well, I haven't read. I mean, I'm familiar with the glass family, but I suppose I don't know. Actually, I haven't read you haven't read. Have you never read the Salinger's stories? The Zoe. I've read that's the glass family there and they're, they're glad they're glasses. There is though there's something of listening to beastie boys record on the way here and they have this rhyme about I was. I got more Salinger's than j. d. which was pretty good. That's really good arts loyalty. Here's what I pick up is that that in your work. Loyalty to something big and amorphous country or something brick and mortar and small as a house, a group of ex pats stay in when they rotate through forward area. Those you notice that loyalty and there's something about it that seems to grab you so too. But I think it raises a question which is to whom in what are you loyal as an artist, like on the page, how do you deal with competing loyalties and ties you've built a report it, but also to yourself and the reader, how do you, how do you decide as an artist to what you're going to be a loyal, and then how do you explain or have you thought about the ways in which we parcel out our loyalties? I think about this affirmative, David Halberstam the David Halberstam journalist sometimes right books about the Vietnam war. And then when he was done, writing a book about the Vietnam war would go and write a book about sports. Baseball would go back and forth and operating in that body of work seems to me intelligence that may. A decision about the project that you are doing and George Orwell whom I admire very much said that the there are four warring ideas within the writer. There is static. There is political. There is ego, there is for posterity, history and one may see how these things war with each other. And when I first started writing, I did not think much about what it was that I was doing and why it was doing it. And now every time I sit down in the morning, I think what what it is that I'm trying to accomplish here. I, I love the romantic tradition. I liked being taken by idea. Sometimes it's important to have that within the work you're doing and not just isn't novelist also within the work that might be doing gathering information or fundraising or coaching actors or doing any of the things that are creative and it's wide spectrum and. But I do make a decision about what I'm doing every day now and much of the writing that I do now has the broad brush idea of leading suffering and trying to make the processes of foreign policy more humane in the medium-term which is just about as far as I can click out to. Some people are good at clicking all the way out to climate change zone, and I'm aware of that. I hope in my own life, but the larger idea, I haven't found a way to think about that yet, but I can think about people I can think about people I've met, I think about what it is like for them to get blown up. And I think that there are ways that that can be mitigated or stopped. The larger question is whether or not the United States of America can remain true to its ideals, given the way that or can remain true to its ideals and operate in the world as it does today in a foreign policy since it seems to me that this impossible, it is impossible for the United States to be loyal to the idea that all men are created equal and still. Behaviors. It does abroad as it is right now. No one's ever gonna hit the ideal. It's never going to be perfect. The question is, how do you make this process more humane? How do we allow ourselves? How do we try to get closer to the ideals that we. I hope. Believe in collectively. And as a writer, as a journalist as a novelist. How how does that question animate? You. The nice thing about that great big giant question is that it comes down to for me is going looking at people and asking them what hell is going on here. What's going on? How is it for you and doing that often enough leads to the kind of thing that I just said, and that's how it animates me. And that's a great reason for fiction writer to get out of a close room everyday to how do you both tap into your empathy for the people you're with when they're facing difficult circumstance? And keep a cold clear I out for their lies and compromises. And then how do you decide. Because writers pay not one can't really say that one just well, I just ride it as I see it because that's not exactly so right. We think about it and you're telling broader narrative. So how do you parcel that those loyalties out? I get it wrong sometimes and then I try to learn from the mistake and I move on and in the immediate, I work with people over long periods of time. Not that long, but over the course of this book for years, that's long and I get to know them. I try to get the place that are working and not being a fluent speaker of many of the languages that I am working in and around. I record everything and then I run transcriptions of it. And then I translate it twice with different people. And then we cross check the transcriptions. And then we go through everything line by line and we try to. But then there's a moment when you're writing and you decide what to include and what's exclude, and and this is a question of art. I'm not. I'm not. This isn't about this. Is. A political. It's all political in some way, but I'm asking you, this is the question you is as an artist. I guess end as a human. How do you figure out, how do you think about, or do you think about? Is this individual ultimately on the side of good or not? And then. How do I shade it in the writing? I think the shading is important because I don't think that there's a good evil breakdown that way. Although I think that there are you know it when you see it when you see those things and they deserve the word uncomplicated. I don't know exactly how to do it. I a part of the job. You like, do you like thinking about these people and trying to because your books do deal with motives? They don't. They're not strictly report Oreal. They deal with motive. They deal with reason. They deal with fear. Yeah, I think that's what people that's how we relate to each other. That's how we talk to each other. And so I don't the what the that part of the job seems to be mostly about putting oneself myself in the shoes of the person talking to, which is an interesting thing to try to do if you're talking to Taliban spokesman or if you're talking to American marine, or if you're talking to the guy selling pomegranates on the side of Jalalabad road or whatever it might be and that that's that. I do like that about the job because that is the somebody was talking to this friend of mine. Got him Rasul who's in prison in Turkey recently, and he's there four months, essentially the foreign journalist with got out after two days, but it was there for four months. And you were talking about so how you pass the time. He said, well, actually, he's really good at talking about it. He, you know, he's got it down. I'm sure it was harder for him than it sounds when you talked to him over a couple of beers in their Bill. But he said, and I got books and that was how I got through it, and I thought that's what did you have the classics. He said, yeah, the classics. I said like Warren piece. He said, man, worn pizza books too fucking long even for prison. The point, is that what I like most about that kind of research is the getting out of the prison of your head, but maybe the prison of your head and being in the making of the books doing the same thing that the books let people do that they get out of these situations there from minute. You might not know what look at first because I have a beard, but I do shave because I shave the part above and below my beard, but also at times I've had a goatee at times been clean shaven and one thing is true. I always use Gillette razors and blades. I love the Gillette fusion razor. It works perfectly. It doesn't hurt my skin. In fact, it's does a great job and that's why haven't changed for a long time. And here's a great news. Now you can get Gillette quality blades at the best value and convenience with Gillette, on demand with your on demand, you can get blades delivered directly to your door. It's a simple way to subscribe and know what you're getting and be happy with what shows up at the door. Subscribe to Gillette on demand today and get fifty percent of your first order with special offer. Go the moment, fifty at checkout. Enjoy free shipping. And every fourth order free with scripture visit. Let online at your lead on demand dot com. Use the moment. Fifty fifty percent off your first order. Do it. Do you find guilt for the kind of life you've been able to to live? We, you know, as a as an American growing up with some privilege and the east side of New York and the Hamptons. Do you think that's partially that partially fuels any of any of this. When I was a lot younger, I thought about guilt, but no time for guilt. I'm much more interested in the idea that love whatever it is that I have been able to have. There's I do not look at the world or economics as hero some game. And so what I'm motivated by not by guilt, but all the rest of it not all by guilt anymore. Did you ever when you're when you're with some of these people and. One thing I've always been struck by the time we spent together is your lucidity and it's rare, and that's not not giving you any kind of a false praise or anything. You are incredibly lucid, a thinker. When you find an and then you're lucky that you were a lucid thinker, putting a world that really just valued that your your verbal skills and all that stuff. Do you sometimes find connection to people in these other languages where you find like someone who's also, sir, was born that way, but in far disparate circumstance. And was that feel like fills great anytime that you run into lucid thinker that it's, it's like a a light goes on and whatever room you happen to be in. I was the other day driving around about three weeks ago. His driving in Mosul and guy work with their said. Again, him singer Khalil really remarkable Iraqi journalists who is coming to the states. I hope sometime this year if he manages to get through the insane visa process for Rockies right now, he was looking at the window and often the the orphans of ISIS fighters are still at large in the city. And these are kids six, seven, eight nine year old kids and banging on the window and sang are said this thing he said, see how we didn't give any money to that kid. Nobody a lot of people don't get money. These kids, they just keep on driving the way do on a street full beggars banging on your car door. You can try. It depends on the day. I said, yeah. He said one day in the future when somebody is begging for his life from that kid, he's going to turn away from that guy, begging for his life the way that we are turning away from him day after day after day. And that kind of lucidity comes of being in a place combined with. Care and a straight up intellect on education that allows him to make those kind of thoughts that a wonderful thing about the book is that the new book is these end notes you have where you're able to put things like that, like your thoughts about meeting someone like that, or like the or wealth thing, where you can put this stuff in in in the book. And you did make the choice in this book to put a lot of yourself in it in real first person. And I thought one thing that was showed tremendous loyalty to the reader, would you talked about your finances and I'd never seen an author do that before you've talked about what you're paid to do it. The amount of time you, it's clear without saying it. You put that in relief to what these people on the ground. We're getting paid to do what they were doing. Even the you were on the ground to and you're good about not making yourself seem heroic for being there when you're describing the other people, but it does not get the guilt on the table, and that's great. In the goal of all psychotherapy to not make you do things out of guilt, not make one do things out of killed. On the other hand. It doesn't seem to me in reading the work that. You've completely gotten rid of the hair shirt either. I think the writing this book was part of figuring out my own responsibility for there's a part of this book where I talk about. What I forget exactly how it goes in the book. But I think you're right. There is moment in the book where I think about, well, why do I get to do this? And my guilty all of that sort of stuff. And in in my life, I have come out on the other side of that in the book. I think it's an important moment because I think that in some senses we collectively are responsible for this. The stuff that goes on over there that I'm reporting on and the idea that you use. The reporter uses him or herself to make these kinds of points valuable tool in the tool kit. And the idea about putting yourself, have you read like behind the beautiful Forever's by Katherine, boo, random family by Nicole LeBlanc. Random family? Yes. She's a mazing. I got to spend a night, talk in her one. Oh, wow. Born for ten years on a book about comedy clubs. I can't wait to read that book. She and I spent the night talking about that once show. He's a major, what is she doing with the comedy club book? We can talk about that. But, but but the reason I was asking about this stuff was that I read those books. I loved those books. Those books about what it is like to be. The books are about not the writer right there recorded. They're completely away from the writer and. I thought I've seen a few books like this. Then I had seen dispatches by Michael hair. What would you like if you could combine these two things? I had not read a book like that, and that was the kind of book that I wanted. I wanted the person who had done the reporting who had been there who's totally honored the facts of the whatever the case might be, but also was willing to let the reader see what was going on and how the sauce got made. And, and that's what I was trying to do well, and and but it seems there was. Yes, for sure. You were trying to take a certain kind of. You're trying to allow the reader to understand process, but I think there's something else at play to thematically with with putting yourself in it right. Because as a tool it much like the the, the narrator in our town, it allows you to raise certain questions through the personal and it allows you to sort of just set out. Not just the disparity, but the certain words in our culture now that are, they've almost lost their meaning because of help politicized. They become privileges one of those. But something I think about a lot at something that is at the top really top note in a lot of your work. And I do think talking about the way you talk about the fixers, the people who make things easy for you, understanding how grueling and hard it is to do what you do, but you take pains to say like I got paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. I have people who do whatever they can to make this as friction, Liz as it can be. And I don't think that's merely a tool to. Process to think it's something else just talk a little bit about that. And I know you're hesitant to like, explain too much about, but I do think. I actually think that people. It's one of the things that is incredibly rewarding and reading your work and from a distance, you're the work consume clinical. And so I want you to talk about it because it humanizes the, you're exactly right about that. There is more than a tool in a toolbox, if you it, it allows you to. Bringing the reader a different way, and it says that this is me. This could be you. This could be you any of the people I grew up with. And if you live in New York City who are reading this book any at the, I hope it's about any Americans or any English speaking people who are reading this book it just as way of broadening it by by discussing. I've lost threat a little bit Brian. I'm not sure how to talk about it, catharsis. How about this? Well, this is the question Nick, which is. It feels that you're, you have decided with this book. Two. To take the risk. Of allowing yourself to have some catharsis. I don't think that it's catharsis, although the you learn a lot when you read a book and you sort of get through the disease of the book, if that's what you call it. But I don't think that there's a risk if there was ever a risk I didn't. I don't see it as a risk anymore. I just see calling it like it is. And I right in the beginning of the book that I got paid two hundred and twenty five thousand dollars for this book. And I. Talk about that, and I was I'm often curious when I read a book. Well, how do people find this kind of stuff? How does it work? And I don't think that it's a risk to say, this is what I got paid, because what I'm talking about is what I care about, which is I got paid this. This is why I can do this is how you get the information. You won't get the information because it costs this much. I think to do it, and it is a fact that the people who focus on civilian casualties in foreign reporting tend to be people who have a little bit more money than usual. And why is that? Because it's expensive. So what does that do to our discourse about foreign reporting? But you also then shortly after that, talk about that. Sometimes the people on the ground. The people you're covering, have to go hunting cats. Yeah. And so there is something of the confessional at play here. The confessional of being an American who has the luxury to dick around with this. That's where I bring because that's what I'm talking about. Why I'm asking that question. No, no, no, no, it's it's. I think you're onto it. I, you know, it's like if you put an apple next one orange, you'll see that these things are not the same. If you put somebody who's being paid several hundred thousand dollars and they guy who's this. This is what I'm trying to get to in in the past. I think what you've tried to do is by by these drugs positions is is really using that to reveal the other. But I think here you're is interested in revealing you you as the American. I think that that's right. I think that's inciteful. I think that we have to, here's what it is and why is what the. What the the the way to talk about civilian casualties to understand why that matters is to think about the thing that you love best and then know that that thing is going to be taken away and to understand what it is that you love best. You have to take a long, good hard. Look in the mirror. And that is part of what I am trying to do in this work. And I'm trying to do that by looking at the resources I have available looking at the places I've lived the people. I love the way I talk the way. I think. And the that seems kind of far away from the noncombatant cutoff value. But in the end it's not because we are talking about the flesh and blood of the people who are involved get. That's what makes the book. So compelling, though, man is that you get the sense that there's a person. That's why think Tharcisse legit word because it's you're going through something you, Nick McDonnell are going through something as your coming into contact with all the stuff, and it's also not like you just reported this for four years. No. You've been thinking about these people living amongst them, hang out with them, measuring yourself against them for a long fucking time. Yet with the first line of the book is I didn't always think this way. And if you spend as I did nine ten years going in and out of places where America's fighting then to good thing, I don't think the same way because I wouldn't have learned anything. Circling back to loyalty to the question I have is. Do you find your loyalty? It's right in line with this question of the first line of the book, do you find the loyalty shift? Are you tracking your loyalties. And I don't mean like, are you loyal to country the country obviously are, but you know, I mean, the micro loyalties to while I'm trying to figure out what to do, and I think that you are doing this too. I think that you are doing this in this podcast right now. I think you're doing it in the show. I think you're doing all the time. I think that the I think that there is a great feeling and this is not a fact. I don't have the facts for this. This feeling, well, what are we going to do now that there is a political moment that we are living in that requires a kind of action that did not exist to. It was not clear to me that it existed when I was seventeen eighteen nineteen years old. I think it did exist. It's point. Sure. But it was not clear to me and this is not about a particular election. It's about the accumulated understanding of the details. So they're so which brings us to the following question, what are we gonna do Brian? Well, yes, this is actually the actual next question. I have, which talks about an expensive education. I grew up. This is not. I grew up, I think. I mentioned she wants. I grew up when I was thirteen. My father may. I've talked with my father made a good deal of money, and we moved to a big house and the big house was next to a bigger house on a big huge estate that was owned by William Casey, who is the director of the Central Intelligence Agency. And I've often thought about what a squandered opportunity that was for me as a fourteen or fifteen year old to try to influence the world somehow, you know, to. Or you know, to sneak in there and figure out what the hell was going on right next door and that he was a part of when the thing was changing, the professionalism in it was changing, you know, and and what did you have ideas about being an officer for the intelligence services? I did not, but I know I didn't. I. I'm too much of a wise ass man. I could never have really done any of that. I, you know, and I'm not asking you this question either. 'cause I know you're a spy, so I don't have to ask. Here's what I wanted to talk about about what to do now, because yes, I'm fucking obsessed with the question, but you know, I love your book, your novel, expensive education. I mean, I just think it's staggering thing and and. And it's it deals with things. I've long been obsessed with. I- fetish Harvard long before my son went there and then an and I thought it was an incredible look at it, but because it's a look at the way the intelligence community looks at self. It's take on a certain kind of it's funny, this word elitism has really become loaded, but that book is a take on a elitism, like a kind of notion of professionalism. And I, I wonder, like, you know, even in that book the insularity of the intelligence community, the way it co-ops, the best of what's in people by using ideas of loyalty and professionalism and code is something the book is examining deeply. Yet the book. Does the what? The utility of the intelligence services, right? You're not slamming anybody. You're examining it. But what you do come down on the side of boy, it's insularity is a problem at boy, the way at co ops people as a problem. And yet the world we're in. It feels to me talk to you like. You'd love to go back to a place where those quaint criticisms of the of it are, were the thing that be concerned about. Yeah, I I don't. I don't think that I would wanna go back and direction, but I'd sure like to go forward. I. His way to put that in perspective, I had dinner a couple nights ago with a German diplomat who works on. He's interesting for a lot of reasons, but he was telling me that he goes to a conference put on by the FSP which is the Russian intelligence services, and they do this every year and they invite delegates from other intelligence services around the world to what say that again, conference that the FSP puts on to for their other intelligence east and for its Russian. I can't pronounce Russia's the Russian intelligence services. Yep. Putin was in the efficacy and it's what the KGB used to be. It used to be the KGB and he went a couple years ago he had. He's not going to last too, but he's going in this year and he went a few years ago and and when he got there, he said it was interesting because he and many of the other western. Spies intelligence analysts. And so on felt like he said, Horace to the politicians are had to the building that are caught up in that or civil servants bureaucrats. But in any case, we're not what it was like when you got to rush up because when they were doing their conference, they were not doing it an office building. They were doing it in a palace and what they were showing these guys when they got there was like, yes, we are all intelligence operatives, but we actually run the show over here. It is our show and he said Putin sat down and had dinner with these guys because these were his people. And so I think that whatever the problems of the American intelligence services, they are not running the candy shop. It is not their show and that is a very important distinction. But the rhetoric out of Washington, which is what you're talking about with what are we gonna do the Radic out of the rhetoric out of Washington is we have to stop these people from running the show. These people are primarily corrupt the, you know, the rhetoric out of the White House. And having spent so much time studying these people. I mean, how does that all hit you. I think that the only way to deal with whatever's coming out of the White House's to fact check the phrase in particular, it's like, and then you just go from there to to talk about it in any other ways to feed the craziness of it. But how do we make that? How do you, how do you make that land with people? How? What do you think? 'cause you're a communicator at your writer. You're trying to take these complex ideas and and these situations, and then. Present them in a way that can be understood, which is why even though you and I, you know, we may be. Which is why when people read your work, they need to know that it it is. It's actually for all of your intellectual Accu men in the books you you really work hard at seems to me to make it easy to read. I hope so. I like reading Pige Turner's spy. I like fantasy novels and spy thrillers and all of that stuff. Does your books read like that they're not dense and difficult to read. They require afterwards. One thinks and one connects in that way, but. So much. So what do what to do? How do you make that land? I don't know how to make that land all the time. I try to make it land by reading a story that people want to turn the pages of. That's my first concern book make turn the pages, but to tell you the truth, I'm having a hard time. Theory. I how to make it land in a way that satisfying to me. And so what I was doing recently in Mosul for example, was taking off the journalist hat taking off the writer at and figuring out how to participate in these problems in a new way because I can. You can be a journalist and still be doing other things. You can be a novelist during the things as you know from what we're doing right now. So here's an example. I'm trying to figure out how to participate in the reconstruction and Mosul Mosul city that figures in the book city of two million people think about eighteenth street and then think about everything south of eighteenth street being like rubble being like September eleventh, but on every single block from eighteenth street to the bottom. That's what west most looks like right now. This is because the United States Air Force trying to destroy and the coalition international coalition trying to destroy ISIS these long state bombed that city into rubble. What are we gonna do the last time a city looked like this was Aleppo, and then you have reminding fluids a little bit. But then before that we're talking about Dresden and Berlin and Warsaw. And when those cities were destroyed, they were billions of dollars of capital injected. This is not happening in Mosul and so I find it to be one an intellectually. Interesting problem. This is not one in importance, but to how to rebuild the whole city and to. Like oppressing there's a pressing need and their strategic needs for why to do that. And so how do you communicate that? But well, how do you communicate right? Because. The rhetoric has done such a good job of dehumanizing. The people of Mosul has done such a good job of in fact, humanizing. The people of that entire part of the world that an emotional argument which is normally the best one feels like it it. It's very difficult to make. But the emotional argument might work is the one used us said that that guy said to you, which is, do you wanna? Do you wanna turn that Bagger into a killer? And that is a part of the way to go forward. But I don't even think about thinking that far in the future, I think about what is the most effective way to rebuild a place right now. And it turns out that there are people who are studying this right? It is not. It turns out to send tents and to rebuild water, enter pump money into the United Nations or necessarily into the rocky government, the most effective and officiant way to rebuild a place or to well, again, I, I wanna stop myself. I'm excited about the idea, but you do have to focus on the studies that have been done. The most best way to do. It seems to me right now to give people cash to give people just money. And so if you look at the studies about cash assistance, you see that if you take pick your metric say there there was a benchmark study done in Rwanda recently in which they measured nutrition program. I believe it was against just cash. This nutrition program, giving flower, giving whatever it was. I don't wanna do injustice to that. I suspect it was a strong program. I know it wasn't fact, and the metric might be the with of kid's arm. You measure the bicep to stand malnutrition when you measured the traditional program in kind giving against cash, you had. More efficiency bigger biceps just by giving cash. And the reason is that people know what to do with cash, and this speaks to the larger problem in Iraq for all these years. We've said, here's how to do it. We're going to bomb, we're going to, we're going to bomb part of this place the ground, but we're going to do it with you, but we never really gave control to people at the very bottom level. I mean, people whose houses are destroyed. You don't have anything. I think that if you start giving those people with rigorous selection. Cash transfers on the scale of two thousand dollars, those people will rebuild their houses and mostly will start coming back to life for a fraction of the cost that it will cost in the traditional way. Do you think that the American government wants Mozell to come back to life? I think that there are people within the American government who care about Muslim coming back to life and east Mosul is back to life when when you're talking to someone you mentioned before in this way to get to this question of humanity. When you talk to Taliban information officer. I feel I would very difficult time. Now I've talked a lot of criminals. I've talked to a lot of, I've spent a lot of time with people who've heard people in my life like I've professionally and you fence with these people in a certain way. I mean, I so you know, I'd say, but I haven't been with people who are part of an an an institutional. In the kind of institutional harm that the Taliban caused the sort of not sort of the treatment of women that they, they're responsible for the vast majority of deaf instruction Afghanistan. And so you're talking to someone like that. How do you not. Give in to what must be in there, which is to sort of like scream and yell and say, shake them alert, especially if you find one who's bright person, how do you not try to get in there and go like, but what? The fuck nude. So I should. I try to get in there, but I try to get there by being specific again. So I said they're responsible for the vast destruction of death instruction Afghantistan in certain years, the coalition was responsible for as many civilian casualties as the Taliban were in recent years. Most of the Taliban that's just one, but we just talk about the treatment of women, right? You could merely talk about so what I do so you can't. So you read the person, you look at the person. It's like rounders poker. It's like, you look at the person you are in the room with them. You talk about the weather. Small talk will save the world. I'm not saying make small, talk with the Taliban. I'm saying, be willing to engage with people in the context that they live in. To what end. To mutual understanding and, okay. What do you gain by the mutual up? What do we gain by understanding what makes Attala Mon a bright person who's Attala information officer? So you're not interested in this. I. I just want to change his mind and I'm saying his because it's definitely him in that world. I would want to change his mind and I'm, I would lose. I know I couldn't well, maybe not maybe wouldn't lose. I don't know people who've gone. I mean, the Taliban is non monolithic. Some of the Taliban just guys needed ten bucks joined the Taliban, picked up a rifle shirt out at the America. You can change that guy's mind. You can give them twenty bucks for one year and then yes, that makes complete sense it, they're engaged. You ever try to change their minds. Can you in this role or can you not the I, I don't try to start with the most extreme guy like don't start with the Taliban's spokesman. I had. I worked with a fixer once we were driving around and he asked me, I worked with fixer who had two wives, for example, and we talk about that and and the way that he thinks about women with something that we often talked about. I talked I the fixture once who told me that he beat up a doctor once. And when I heard that, I said that is, you can't do that man, that is a crime and it's doesn't help. You're 'cause he said, of course, it helps this guy, his family, they're going to come. He's going to do better time. So that's not how it works. So we got into that. And you try to change people's minds, but Taliban spokesman not a good place to start because that's not what you're gonna win. I gotta tell Ben spokesman told me once you're two months late on this story. So he was telling me I would do to do my job better than I was. The other day I said a checkpoint in Mosul last month. We were stopped by these. These Shia population units, their kids basically like not much older teenagers. And one of them spoke no English except to do your job. And it kept yelling at me through the window, do your job because he was pissed off and because we didn't have the right papers or he thought we didn't know whatever, but that's all I keep saying. Do job do your job. That's fantastic. That's like that internet mean you have your one job. Yeah, yes. Do do your job is fine. I wanna talk a little bit about how you do job. Actually some more questions about you, you you as an artist. Well, all right. I what. So in the rebuilding of Moslem. And in your question to me of what we do now. Visit so much fun. Brian, I gotta tell you this is so much fun to sit in. Talk about these ideas like this. There is not that much time in a day to sit and talk about what is behind all this stuff. It's like, what a great thing I love talking to you and I, I never not to turn this new big on mutual appreciation. I mean, I think that actually. While I do only want you to talk, but I'll say this while making our TV series billions doing this. I constantly question how and why continue to do this podcast because it's insert as the utility of it is demus and but the answer is I love having these conversations and getting the opportunity to it. And I do think that there's just not enough of of people throwing it on the table. So have you had people in here who you disagree with likley. Oh, yeah. And I always want more of my keep trying to get bent SAS on here, and I don't know how if anyone who listens knows Ben Sasse tell them to get in here. I don't think you should have any Taliban spokesman in here. No, that wouldn't for me. I want to ask some questions about about how you do what you do. Can you describe what the rhythm of your life has been like for the past few years? Like how you balance all this stuff and sort of just how you decide when you need to be on the ground somewhere when you need to write how you right when you're in those places? It varies a lot at I go project to project and in Iraq. I was living in a house in Baghdad for while and I would get up in the morning and I would go and try to solve whatever the question was at that point in the research. So if the question was about a particular incident, we would try to run down the incident and that's just is reporting just as calling people up, knocking on doors, reading the internet. And just always writing all the time always writing up the notes. I mean, there were, you know, I don't know how many tens of thousands of words of straight notebook notes and transcripts and all that stuff. What are the techniques you use to you employed again? Trust. It's the small talk thing clearly. And then, but how do you, how do you learn who you can trust and have those skills that you developed surge other areas to, or do you just become like a regular person when you walk away from that environment? I think the the best trick about being a reporter, I think is that you have to be as interesting to the person reporting on as they are to you. Awesome. More interesting. And I think the great the greatest reporters are that way, and I have a feeling that's how it works in some other in a lot of field. Yeah, that's brilliant. That's actually a great thing to say it's it's actually applies across the board in a way. And so that does not to say that I promise people things, but the way to be that way is to just live your own God damn life. So it's, you know, you gotta find time to have to live a life in these places. You can't show up in a place like you're on some foreign planet and try to just get straight to work all the time. You gotta ride a jetski across the Tigris river. You gotta go eat, MAs, goof, you gotta hang out and then people wanna hang out. I'm this guy is you know, south lawn almighty. If you're listening south one know that we're talking about you and your love of game of thrones here on at this office of another show that you should be watching. And this is one is rebuilding Mosul brick by brick, and we don't talk about that all the time when we talk about is. Peak TV. Right? Yeah, that's great, right. So you're doing that you're engaging that, but how do you figure out who to trust and how do you figure out who's lying to you? You know, you just keep doing regular life, but in addition to your your life, you are trying to learn everything about that person all the time. So you are looking everything up your, you're verifying things. So somebody tells you something you go and try to verify at three other ways. In the case of an airstrike you try to if somebody says my house got blown up by an American missile, how do you go and try to figure that out while you call the Americans? The Americans don't wanna talk to you. You call the neighbors. You can't get the numbers on the phone. You call the police. The police say, why would we care about that? You go to the house, you get to the house. There's a big pile a rebel. You think this is a little bit more credible now, then you have the beginning of the story? Yes. And then you get there in the house isn't blowing up and you don't trust the person anymore. And if that person told you call my cousin to, then you're not cousin either. Exactly. And this is about how you deal with security to you get past. I don't remember who said this to me, but it was evocative is. Chain of trust. I know that I can be into Crete with fixer x. talking to Colonel y talking to asset z. because I trust the person who introduced me to fix her originally. And if I don't trust that person, I'm not going to go the rest of the chain. So you can go as far as you trust down that chain and where it breaks. You just hope it doesn't break in a place where it's like buying weed in Times Square in eighth grade. As time by the time I was in eighth grade Times Square was looking at dick different way, but what I. What did you did you buy in times gurney threat. A guy would tell you that he could like a guy would tell you that he could find it and he would bring it back and then you had to decide that guy really go to time square is like gonna be oregano. Is that. We'd ninth grade once I took. I smoked for like one week in ninth grade and the not again till college. I had a bad week. In ninth grade at men that was it. But I do remember getting sold oregano essentially, from guy said he went to get it and that I learned that lesson which is I should go with the guy if I wanted to Canada now where it's legal by the way, it's legal here in New York City. If you want, you could get some. Even though you're where the Cush from. So you're always over there where there's Cush. So if you want that you could find. Did did your. When you became aware that you had certain gifts did it immediately come. With a sense of duty attached to it, a sense of like just duty to to to to the, let's say those those gifts that that that you had. Was there ever a time when someone learns fast runner. There's a time that just run because they love to run, and then maybe they realized that can put that to use in a different way. It's really kind of you to say when I became aware of my gift, I feel a little bit like LeBron trying to take my talent to Miami. I mean, I guess I do have certain gifts, but it's not. They're not like. An clean seventeen you when when? Yeah, that's what this book is about. It's like when you realize that you have access to things you when I realized I had access to things, I've it seems to me that there is a responsibility to do something with that. Do you have a complicated relationship with ambitions? Are you comfortable being ambitious? Do you find that you were very ambitious when you were super young and you question it now, have you found a way to reclaim it? I don't have a problem with ambition. I like him Bishen. I like ambitious people like ambitious projects, rebuilding most project. I wanna rebuild muscle. I'm gonna work with ambition ambition that serves others now is more interesting to you than emission that served Nick mcdon-. The only ambition that is interesting. In the end, I believe everyone discovers his ambition that serves others when you look at our country. Now when you when you look, you start by mentioning or well, and you mentioned oil in the book. There this book how how fascism works by professor at Yale, Jason Stanley. And I've been giving this question a lot of thought. And part of it has to do with language in the the wo- the Orwellian way language shifts. You'll start up. You talk about brave new world in the book and don't, but I love it. I know you love brave new world that an interview somewhere Hawksley. But when when we think about this, the way language is deployed. And it's meanings becoming. While just fucking the opposite of words being used to mean, they're opposites when you have president last night, the president said, celebrated that journalists, getting body slammed, and we're in the shadow of the Shoghi thing. How. How do you see all this man? And do you think when you look at the way that language being used by our government. How does it hit you when you look at the way language has been used in these war-torn forward areas. To the first question, how do I see all this? Sometimes I look at it and I think about geologic time, yes. And that is a is a comforting way of thinking. Sometimes I think about it in the more day today, and it is a really where where in trouble, we're in an up hill battle right now for. For the things that I care about that you care about, but I, I don't. I sometimes I think that history is cyclical like even Cal dune. Sometimes I think that it's going on a straight line or diagnosed up like Steven pinker. There are different views of history in this way. I, I'm not totally loyal to either one yet. I'm trying to work that out, but I don't know how valuable it is to know that we're going in a direction or not. What I know is that I see things in front of me that are not right, and I believe that by calling attention to them, well, the direction matters only in that if you're in TNN square understanding in front of the tank, can you stop the tank from running you over, you know, men in and sometimes you. I mean, it's possible you can't. Do you think we're at the place where the tanks just running all over for a while or you think it's possible to stop the tank. I think it's possible to stop the tank. But I, I, you know, optimism of the pessimism of the intellect optimism of the will. I don't know. That's a really great place. Fuck there's so much more wanna talk to you about, but we're going to have to end soon. So that is a great place to I kind of want to when you come back. That's the way that is. You know, I think that's Graham. She said that, but it's still a great. You can take his line and use it. I don't know grabbed she is who is that? His political theorist the last when the middle of the twentieth century. All right. I gotta read some Graham. She see, we all have kunai. We all of us do. And if you have a Kuna because you don't know what that word means. It just means a gap. I just used an annoying of noxious word for gap. I apologize viewer not not listen or not to you. There's just no reason that word except to show off. I think I would love to have you back on here to actually just talk about being a writer like about flow state into in the work every day. And I think you know these times made me focus on sort of like your mission in a way and. I would love to talk again about writing process really focus on on that journey as an artist. But I guess to end and circle back to honor. In a way it does seem to me that this search for honor you do find it in pockets, and I'm wondering if it leaves, you heard the quote from the guy, but I'm wondering. If. If you find it everywhere you go, and and if it gives you if it does give you some hope. Or if you don't, you can say. Yeah, I do. I do see honor in just about everywhere. I go moments of honor people who decide to live and commit and sacrifice. I got a haircut this summer from this guy in Mosul looks fuck it. Great. By the I think you, yes, this was in Joan. I can still see the shape. Well, he he's a good haircut night. I told the guy is good, haircut, man. And he was telling me he was stuck under Mosul in Mosul under ISIS and they caught him giving somebody a beard trim. Somebody wanted to go. I caught him the twenty five lashes. And I said, well, shoot, you do. He's well. You know, I went back and I cleaned up, I healed, and then I kept giving people go teas. And there are people who do these things under such circumstances. And. I find that to be useful thing to remember, man, that's a really inspiring to remember that's great neck McDonnell your new book which is called bodies. The bodies in person and account of civilian casualties in American wars is out. Now, I really recommend that book I and I know that's the book where sailing, but can I just say, I really think people should read an expensive education. I think that that book talks about certain. It depicts certain forces at work that although. It's just it's useful book because actually it's funny, as I said, the book is sort of a critique of a bunch of stuff but, but it also underpinning it are these ideals that are still worth thinking about protecting Brian neck. You, thanks, man. You can find Nick, not really on. You're still not really on Twitter right now. I'm on Twitter and social media, Instagram? No, you're on no social media. So fuck it, Nick, but you can't. Fucking go. Send me an Email, Nick, McDonnell. Are you are you on? Do you have a website, Nick, dot, McDonald, gmail.com. That's amazing. Mind is the moment, became gmail.com. And I'm at onto it at Brian Koppelman. I know we went into the weeds a little bit here. I hope that that you can hear. I have for Nick, although he certainly not young person anymore to be in your thirties and have this sense of mission purpose duty, and these skills as a writer really is amazing to me. Go check out his work and let me know what you think of the podcast spread the word about the podcast if you can, and I will see you next time. Thanks. Thanks. Thank you.
The Moment with Brian Koppelman