20 Episode results for "Billy Johnson"

6 - Billy Jensen and Montreal Ghost Stories

Whores Talk Horror

23:53 min | 1 year ago

6 - Billy Jensen and Montreal Ghost Stories

"Welcome fours talk or we're not really horse. We just like word word play. Hello welcome to horse taco. I'm sharon. I'm melinda and this week. We're going to have kind of a certain episode. Why is that melinda because i went on vacation to montreal canada. While i was there. I did actually do a little ghost research so <hes> it wasn't totally wasted trip yeah so we didn't have time to record last weekend so we are literally recording this episode and editing it today so that at at midnight we can release it so this weekend was kind of a big weekend for true crime. At least it was for me. <hes> mind hunter started started on friday season to which i'm only three episodes because i haven't had time to watch as many episodes as i want in two zero episodes in so but that's all right so far. It's starting a little slow. I know season one a lot of people that it was a little slow. I kind of disagree with that. I thought season one i dunno captivated me like from the very first episode and just suck me in agreed and <hes> <hes> this one starting off a will slower than season one but i think it's starting to pick up now so i'm excited to see where it's gonna go but anyways so there's that and i also went to a book signing yesterday and got to meet billie johnson and he's promoting his new book chase darkness with me so i if you don't know who believe johnson is he is a true crime journalist who focuses mainly liane cold cases and missing persons and when i had him signed my book. I really should've asked him about susan powell but i kind of like blinked when i met him. I didn't really know what to say and then spencer asked him a question and there is so many people waiting to meet him that it was kind of like boom boom boom you no. I didn't want to like hold of his time but susan powell is a missing persons case that many and i actually are going to discuss in an upcoming episode probably in one to two weeks <hes>. We're gonna go into depth about that case because it is something else wow yeah it's really really fascinating thing and i kind of wanted to see if billy johnson had any insight into it. If you know he spent any time at all researching that case or if he was asked to maybe you know look into it but we will we will talk more about susan powell in a couple couple weeks but but anyways so i'm kind of paraphrasing from his book but after seventeen years of writing about hundreds of stories that were never solved billy decided that he needed to get involved in start trying to solve these cold cases himself and since he started doing that he has solved aww or help solve ten homicides and helped locate many missing persons he also co host the murder squad with paul holes and he also is a co host on the first degree podcast with jack vanak and l. alexis linkletter and fun fact that's a lexus is a producer for many true crime television shows including snapped killer couples and in a couple of weeks. We will have an a podcast. We're we will interview manned goodyear who is an actress who is actually in one of the episodes of snapped killer couples. We're gonna be talking to her. All about that experience in fact we are going to be interviewing her tonight so so excited i know i'm really excited to talk to her because after watching her episode i we have so many any questions and i love those readers so those reenactment shows are the best so billy came in and his his book editor introduced him and we did you know she asked him a bunch of questions and then we did a q._a. And and he told us a story about how the last time he was in naperville illinois at the very same location that we rat yesterday for his book signing he was there with with patent oswald and hall hanes and they were there for an event discussing albion in the dark which is the book by michelle mcnamara about golden state killer really really quick sharing. He hasn't told me any of this and i think i know this is going on. I'm so excited. <hes> excited to hear this mary. Maybe you're right but yeah this this not no no you're good but this is pretty exciting because <hes> also f y while they were there at this event they also had a film crew with them because they were shooting footage for an upcoming documentary and that will be on h._b._o. About i'll be gone in the dark so i think he said it was going to be out next may or june so i'm super excited for that documentary so anyways so last year when they were in naperville title for the first time and they got to the q._n._a. Section of the event someone asks. Do you think the golden state killer will be caught and so billy answered. Yes ask within the next five years. I think it'll happen because now we have is we have his d._n._a. And eventually through familial d._n._a. Through sites like twenty three and me <hes> they think they will catch him so basically while this event was going on back in san -cremento they had no idea that they are actually arresting booking planning a big press conference for the next day to announce they finally caught the golden state killer who we now know is joseph james diangelo ngelo and so when billy learn of this news which is hours after the event <hes> he got text messages and he he was kinda communicating back and forth with people and they're like. Do you think they got him. Do you think they really got him and then eventually. He found out like they did get him. He was like shit. He's like i. I need help patent you know because as we all know patent was married to michelle mcnamara who wrote the book and actually i think at that that event her parents were in the audience right ah yes yes yes because her parents from oak park illinois which is like thirty miles away from naperville or it's pretty close by so yes. That's her parents were there too so it was a huge deal so unfortunately in the camera crew was staying at a different location than billion patent and <hes> so billion patent were in chicago and so he was like shit. I have to get pet now zwolle reaction when i tell all the news and so he ended up telling him and recording him on his phone and that will be included in the h._b._o. H._b._o. documentary so hopefully i yes. I'm going to say yeah. I just remember from that because i was so excited. Hearing that news yeah i remember and patna i just remember seeing oswald on instagram and i started crying because he posted this video as he was flying out of o'hare and i didn't even know they were here and i know i didn't know either and he was. I just remember him like making this video and i'm like why is he at o'hare going during chicago and he said like i think we oughta autumn michelle and i lost my shit. I know but like that's exciting anyway back to billie johnson very excited as i could have been there and all i could have been there two baby shower shower but i met tumor torino's so that's pretty cool. I drag spencer with me. Which is the next. I'm going to talk about so one woman mm stood up in the q. and a. and i i have to say there is about two hundred people there about ninety. Percent of them were women. There is maybe twenty twenty men in the audience in woman one woman as billy why she thought most people in the audience are women and basically i forgot exactly how she phrased it but why lied did he thinks that most women are most of the people who are interested in true crime are women and so i don't remember his response exactly but it was basically <hes> something like women are more in touch with their emotions and their more apathetic to what's going on in the world old when she has questioned like everyone's laughing because it was very obvious that most of the people were women and so he kind of thinks all the men who were there because he was like yeah. I'm sure all of you were probably like dragged here. It wasn't it wasn't doesn't like you're on your to do list of things to do today like oh go see billy johnson and also it's pretty obvious that another reason why a lot of women are there is i billy janssen's pretty easy on the eyes he is i do i mean we all know paul holes easy on the eyes but both of them a lot of crime perpetrated against women men. That would be my guess that like women like to not like to read about the stuff but like are interested because it self preservation yeah. They need to be aware of what's going on in in the world so that they can protect themselves. I totally agree <hes> and so <hes> some of the other questions and things that he addressed during the the discussion then he talked about growing up in new york city during the time of son of sam when son of sam was on lewis and how his sisters used to have have to tie their hair up when they would go out or where it up just 'cause son of sam his <hes> his type that he went for was women with long dark hair so if you had long long dark hair women either cut off or with tied up so that they would not become one of sun assam's victims someone asked him about the cases that most was influenced him and how he he kind of like got into crime originally and he said that j._f._k. Was probably the first big case that sparked his interest in true crime. <hes> a few other things we learned about him was that he is a big stars fan. No yes and he has a chapter in his book called the cantina scene and his editor actually was like no you can't call. You can't call the chapter that he was like. No this is sticking so he's also very funny. He enjoys a cocktail or two and he didn't come directly out and say so but after hearing a few remarks he made about trump. It's pretty obvious he is not a fan of trump so wpro all those things make him even more and when i did meet him i did manage to ask him quickly if he knew anything about the chicago serial serial killer case and if he was <hes> helping work on that case and he did say that when he finishes his book tour that he will be ah assisting on that case wow philly call us well. You know what if you read his book it talks about and ways in which all of us can help kind of do what he does so. Maybe we can help him solve that case is. Maybe you know all of you who were at the show yesterday. You can help solve the case two. N i have a little surprise for you mindy andy so an open it up shut. Oh my god is to melinda. Keep digging johnson. Oh this is the coolest bookmark i've ever seen. It's a magnifying glass and it has the book title on it. Thank you so <music>. Happy belated birthday. Thank you oh i love him. I love you. Thank you welcome so yeah it was. It was really fun awesome awesome if you have a chance to see him if he's. I don't know how much longer his book tours going on but if he's coming to your town it was definitely definitely worth earth getting tickets to show because he's he's very entertaining. He's very funny. What he does is amazing and yet anyone who's a fan of true crime even if you've never heard of them before go get the book hear what he has to say and and yet chase darkness with him and i've been listening to everything shared said but then like peeking through the talking. I'm not ignoring. You really excited. Thank you so now. I think mindy is going to tell us a little bit about some of the paranormal activity that she learned about in montreal yeah. I'm not gonna. There's a lot of different stories that my friend surprised me by booking a ghost tour <hes> of all we were in old montreal which is sort of like it looked basically like rural france will not rural france but like hills and cobblestones and just blake it was gorgeous but i posted a picture of one of the stories that's pretty infamous in montreal marie. The joseph angelique was an enslaved african american woman owned by some. I'm just gonna say rich rich french family in montreal you try and put your names but those of you who speak french fluently and know the story better feel free to write in and correct all of my pronunciation i would appreciate it but in seventeen thirty four she was charged with arson after a fire leveled montreal's merchants quarter the the home that she worked at was actually really close to like the town center and there was a rumor that that she started a fire in the home and so she was of course arrested because she was a black woman and <hes> you know that's how it rolls in the seventeen hundreds out was us. She actually was convicted because everything was circumstantial but she was convicted. Because is i believe it was a five year. Old girl came to the police station with her mother and said that she saw marie throw flaming into the house so she was convicted by a five year old girl which probably little girl did not see that be fair <hes> marie-josephe. She did did try to run away a few times but you know who's gonna blame someone that because i mean i don't wanna slave like i don't blame her. She tried to get out of the situation asian. She even had been like sold into lake not child. I don't know the word i'm looking for but her owners had paired her with a neighboring slave to delake breed essentially while she was like quote working for them to breed with the white families know with the other slave from the house nephew order employees to make me more workers thank you yes thank you and so like why would you wanna stay there like glamour but the told the story that is the ghost part of it is that she was convicted she was hung and set on fire while l. hanging in the town square and left there so like as the wind would blow the ashes from her dead body would spray around and the tradition at the time was that when you've been convicted they would make you walk the town square in like a white gown holding a torch because arson then <hes> like shame you in front of everybody and then they like strung up and whatever so the ghost story is that apparently people still see her walking through the town square holding holding the torch in a white gown ashes were blown everywhere so right technically yeah. She could be if i were her. I would hunt off a out of that. Black the fox because screw that like but she's i posted a pig a painting her that we found or that i found online <hes> obviously there's more of this story. There's a lot more detail. I encourage folks to go online and look it up because it's sad it's really interesting though i think how many people died in the fire did they say <hes> that's oddly not really wasn't mentioned on our tour but it wiped out the businesses of lake aac almost the entire town so like got so there might not have been any jazzy is really about like casualties. There's no all these people's apple's businesses. Were now gone so they probably even her just conspiring to do that. They probably would have hunger anyways as punishment and oh you mean an example for the rest of the slaves. It's not to step out of line exactly and there was a rumor that she had a co conspirator who has a gentleman friend of hers that she had tried to run away with once before but but there was never any proof of that at all so that but that was the mingo story they talked about was that she is known to walk the streets of old montreal at night carrying the torch. I i did not see this happen. I hope she's resting in peace because afterlife like that my god but i can also understand if she'd be bits scare the hell out of people for sure especially all the tourists we saw my gosh i wanted to scare the heck out of most of kidding but montreal's lovely regardless the other story stories that we heard was about a pub that my friend and i actually had dinner in and fortunately the second floor is where they said that you normally hear noises isn't stuff but they told us that was closed off for private party whatever you will. I think maybe they just didn't want us up there. No i'm just kidding. I it was delicious. I don't want to bad mouth this restaurant but sharon correct me. It was the twat brazil brazil. I think that's it's a french repub with delicious food and it's a group hub. Actually they had actually one of the best like floral as i've ever had in my life but then decides the point the story behind this place it's about a four story tall building and the pub as it is now the the brewery area with the big camp. They have all that on display lake most brew pubs and then the second floor is like a banquet areas would they use for supposedly but back in the day again like seventeen in hundreds or so <hes> the apartment buildings and so one story. We heard on the ghost tour which was really cool. You're standing in the dark alley outside the building like in this it was kinda creepy and atmospheric great <hes> the landlord so there were like families living in these apartments. Let's and the landlord at the time and i'm sorry i don't remember why he decided to do this but he basically wanted to renovate the building and and kicked everybody out just broke their leases like families children everything homeless on the streets yeah and and so a few of the residents were angry about this just a few as you as you would be and this is even our artur our tour guide it was like i don't understand why people do this in horror movies but as happens in in most horror movies these these gentlemen that went to get their revenge so are so we could say on the landlord broke into the building at night was everyone was evacuated and set it on fire but did so by starting the first floor on fire then going up to the second floor instead of the other way around so long story short some of them died were found found dead on the stairs trying to get up the arsonists the arsonists there's multiple there were like four i think and then i think the tour guide said the two of them made it to the top so the fourth floor the fourth story and it was either bernadette or jump so they jumped out the window oh and fell to their deaths on the cobblestone streets out front moron and so the story goes and literally walk into the restaurant and i was like we i've seen it on the second floor and the waitress just looked at me and was like no it's private but apparently if you sit up on the second floor of this brew pub even today they have. I've had customers say to their waiters always going upstairs because they can hear people running and noises and they have to be like oh nothing thin. Nothing is off the coast of exactly how you escape fire angry <hes> angry tenants were kicked out of their house and home <hes> <hes> but so when we were there we unfortunately didn't hear any running around because we were on the ground floor and it was way too loud drunk people to hear any ghosts running around upstairs and i i but i would love to sit on the second floor. I would have really been the food is good. I will say that there was nothing ghostly about the food or the beer but <hes> we got to eat there and it was kind of cool because we can now say that we ate haunted pub bud i just thought that was so horrible to think like they kick these people out of their homes uh-huh and then the guys who are yes they were angry. No you shouldn't start fires but like they all died just because they were like we just wanna live in our apartment building yeah anyway so those were two of the major go stories that we heard while we were there. I i know that there are tons more and if you look online there's like countless blogs of different stories that we didn't even get to hear about a future episode and dig into it but i do have to say if you have a chance to go to montreal not a bad place. Everyone was very lovely very nice to us beautiful. It does like old school france. It's like it's really beautiful so i'm logged for montreal canada just beware because it is haunted all right well. Thank you for sharing mindy. I and i think that's all we're gonna do for right now. 'cause we got added this and get it out to you guys to listen to tomorrow or today i ate from now. Whenever you're listening to this really yeah so yeah that's about it and if you have any a ghost stories that you've experienced by being in montreal or if yes or you corrections to what i just talked talked about which are welcome. I will not be offended. Russian comments concerns <hes>. If you wanna talk about billy johnson's johnson's book or if you are also judge you know investigative journalists like him and wanted to talk about some of your stories please. He's emails at horrors. Talk horror at jamal dot com and follows follows on instagram and facebook at horseback horror and on twitter. You can find us at whores whore and thanks for getting creepy with us good bye bye.

montreal billy johnson billy michelle mcnamara mindy andy billie johnson naperville chicago spencer melinda editor susan powell oswald arson illinois goodyear billy janssen o'hare apple
Tracey Schoettlin

The First Degree

1:27:35 hr | 11 months ago

Tracey Schoettlin

"Thank you for listening to this podcast one production available on apple podcasts and podcasts one. If you're like me you get very confused fused by healthcare and especially healthcare when it comes to getting on birth control and that's why I love one of our new sponsors simple health. They're all about care that fits your life. They're making birth control simple convenient and affordable with online prescriptions and free home delivery so whether you're new to birth earth control or just tired of dealing with renewals and pharmacies and doctors and Yada Yada Yada simple health will take care of you. All you have to do is fill out an online health profile L. A. Doctor Reviews that you're a good candidate for birth control and bright you prescription. It's easy you can pick the birth control that you want or already have or you can have a doctor after recommend the best one for you then your birth control ships to your door monthly known eruptions. It's free with most insurance plans in starts at fifteen dollars. A month without insurance wins a better way to give birth control is finally here so the annual prescription is usually twenty dollars but my listeners can try simple health for free just go to simple health dot dot com slash degree and use code degree at checkout again that simple health dot com slash degree and enter code degree at checkout to try it for free warning. This episode sewed contains graphic descriptions violence. Listener discretion is advised plus degree post degree post. I Agree I agree supposed to happen in movies is not and so for mine mine. I used to think well that that you know whoever dumped her body was probably in those woods and follow us and is now gonNA combined us so in my mind that meant that we had Johnson upset the killer. Hey guys welcome to the first degree. The true crime podcast that you might end up on my name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter and next to Billy Johnson and billy. I did want to bring up the fact act that I started reading your buck. You did and I feel proud. How far did you get the bear brooks murderer to the when the body the is in barrels or whatever it's called you know about my childhood right now I do and I was telling Alexis earlier that you are such a beautiful writer and especially when you talk about your dad it's so sweet and like such a wonderful job? Thank you so much and I really enjoy a lot. Thank you yeah it. Meet Your Dad now now. I know he seems like a great guy but it's you. I'm really excited to read the rest of it. I am doing it for. We have a book club podcast. The leading network called the stacks and I recommended that we read the book for that that's awesome yeah so if anybody else's reading Billy's book and wants to have a little chat about it. I'll be talking talking about it on the stats coming up so it's kind of exciting. Thank you so much Ali's emotional well. We're also frigging busy. I haven't read a book in years so it was about time and you know what I'm GonNa. Start Reading audiobooks or listening to audio books 'cause it's basically like listening to a podcast but then you feel smarter because you said you've read a bum. You can say you wrote a book with that. Absolutely oh my gosh. It's a life hack seems better the honestly though if I was listening to Billion Liam the audio book I would be so distracted well. It is kind of funny because I should talk back to him like yeah. Shut the the bill. You sound like a committee. It'd be like but really exactly we wow. Billy's brain is fascinating but because it's his voice it it is very troubling is a very interesting to it at one and a half speed then it'll sound like Oh. Do you talk to slow no but it won't sound like me. It'll sound like somebody that is me but on so I didn't talk about it last episode but we are still doing our competition to win some free first degree Merch by giving us a five star review on the apple podcast APP so when you do it leave your instagram. We'll be picking two week and you can pick got whatever you want for the march for whatever you want not just like Oh. We've got these three things cast expense. That's true so what's today belly. It's National Comic Book Day New. You'RE GONNA pick that line new. I would pick that one. LemMe ask you ladies. What was your a favorite comic book? Growing up never comic book in my life ever know what would I read. Wonder woman was mine. Did you read one about woman or woman. I do yeah well. I I was making a facial expression where it was obvious to look at Rita Comic Book. I'M GONNA I'm GonNa give you guys some comic books. It's also thank you I'm decluttering. It's also national lobster day frame that interests me to lobster lobster. My favorite food lobster is one of my servant turf or a seafood tower my favorite foods more. I just felt like a good lobster lobster roll lobster rolls amazing being a lobster Sushi she lobster handroll from sugar fascist okay but it's also national one hit wonder day you want to know my one hit. Wonders Story Hammer can't touch this. No No. He's not a one. How many did he have name another one? He's also broke clean another one. He can't wonder you wonder though the atmosphere on that's not his. Do you want to get the fable yeah. He did the Hammer. You're wrote the atoms original Adam's family song for the movie now Ya know doesn't count okay. Can I tell you my one hit wonder story yeah yeah. I use to hook up with one of two twins that used to be it sucks. When you work with one of your besties he was in the night and ninety s back? She's like I think he's too old for me. He can't sit up straight. I'm like what why one over at his house one day the right said Fred what I'm too sexy was it that no no it was Evan and Jaron. They tested you're just the girl again. I don't know musical alternative like pop song but it was a one one that was popular song so yeah at least one heard that Delilah plain white t's aw come to our House Pink House Demar and the guy from a lot of take a look at my girlfriend. Oh Orlando Gym Class Heroes. Yes yes to come over to look at but that was not that tickled my girlfriend thing. That's from supertramp yeah that they sampled it for good yeah. They regret anyways all right well. That's enough of that so let's turn down the lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be today's case takes us to Birmingham Alabama. The heart of the deep South Birmingham's official L. Website describes the city as nestled at the foot hills of the Appalachian Mountains at the Cross section of two major railroads. The city was once the primary industrial center of the southern United States at the height of the nation's manufacturing age. The city grew so fast and population it was maybe ironically maybe not so ironically called based on today's case the magic city the Kabul River is the longest free flowing river in Alabama one of the most biologically diverse in the US and considered by many to be the most scenic rivers in the country at the time this area area was serene remote quiet and isolated in July of Nineteen eighty-six a fourteen year old named Elizabeth was running track practice and she and two of her teammates mates were running down a remote road intercepted the river in July of nineteen eighty six me and two friends of mine from Briar Wood or running summer number track with Mountain Brook mountain broke the public school and we are running track with them for the summer to get ready for cross country Ninth Grade Cross Cross country and the fall and it was a run anywhere you want your free run day so we were running through the neighborhoods of mountain brook not broke of various suburb of Birmingham. Nothing really bad quote unquote ever happens there at least that you he would say we're just running with abandoned. You know not care and we're just having a good time. We're singing the Moody Blues on what They WanNa talk in your wildest dreams at the top of our loan method got to the very end of the big hill that goes up to the high school we came across the bridge as the teenage girls ran across the bridge something compelled Elizabeth to stop and look over the railing at the riverbank below at that time it was totally remote area the bridge had woods surrounding it so we decided to walk across crossed the bridge and on both sides of the bridge is a little a little walkway so we stuck over on the side of the walkway and just randomly looked over the bridge and what she saw was beyond her comprehension and it we change her life forever and down at the bottom of rocks that was just a rocky bed. There was not any water there was a woman laying there and she was spreading g go her legs were apart she he had blood on her and she's blond hair and it was it was kind of back and island member just looking at her and thinking game wow. Why is there manneken lying there on those rocks catch on it? It just doesn't make any sense to me and I my mind. Just I kept trying to make sense on what was going on because that's what your mind doesn't a tragic situation and that's what kept coming up with must be praying football a prank or something they started Manica Flood I was frozen and that while I couldn't believe my friends at some point did start moving then they came back and got me they ran for help that we ran up the hill that goes towards the high school way not on the first house. No one answered the second half we were knocking on and actually the lady drove up at the same time that we were knocking and for some reason she did not believe us and and she said well she was gonNA have to check it out herself. That was probably a mistake. She wished she had not made the police swarmed the area. Within minutes in news trucks weren't far behind them and responding officers ran through the potential scenarios from the bridge when they were looking down observing this spotty beneath the bridge. Could this be a suicide. Could this have been an accident but once police got closer to the victim. It was clear that this was no suicide. This was no accident she had multiple sharp force injuries and her body had been terribly terribly mutilated she was nude except except for some tattered knee high pantyhose and they could tell that she had been there for less than twenty four hours based on the condition of the body and one other thing they could glean with their naked. I was the fact that she ran for her life before she was murdered. The pantyhose that she had on for shredded on the bottom autumn her feet Cranchi and was like not it's not like it is now where things are like taped off immediately. It was kind of a lack a lacks crime. I've seen at the very beginning 'cause we're just sitting in the middle of it and at one point I'm the one that was sitting on the curb and let down down into the hey. There's a trail of blood right here. Elizabeth pointed out to the police that there were sneers of blood on the bridge they instantly theorized that she had been thrown over by whomever had killed her as the news trucks continued to arrive on the scene. Murmurs of the victim's identity could be heard. One of the reporters arrived. She was absolutely horrified to realize that she recognizes victim. She was a beautiful blonde. Twenty six sure old at named at Tracy Shetland Tracy had actually interned at the reporting news station years before when she was in college and Tracy's Tracey's family didn't know about the murder yet but they knew something was wrong because Tracy hadn't come home from work the night before and they were worried sick as to why and they were trying to track her down Tracy was always on time she was extremely responsible and she would never just leave or disappear without without any sort of explanation and there's no doubt the Tracy's family was devastated upon receiving the horrific news. The police learned learned that Tracy was extremely ambitious was about to enter into law school in dreamed of becoming a lawyer. She was so determined that she taken the L. Sat multiple times so she could get in. She was a type person who strived for perfection. Her long-term goals included graduating from law school and working with people who are underprivileged reached she had been saving up for things she needed for law school by waitressing at the South Point American cafe and that's where she had vanished from the night before tracey's body body was taken in for autopsy and it was conducted the day after her body was found on July fifteenth the corner found no presence of alcohol or drugs in the identified three stab wounds to the upper lobe of the left lung one stab wound through the heart five stab wounds through the lever to stab wounds into the stomach area the stab wound to the heart area was found to be three and a half inches deep would have caused death and less than one minute over here at the first screw we love clean brands and I'm super excited to introduce to you guys one of our new sponsors ren clean skin-care they believe in being cleaned cleaned skin and also clean to the planet and they know that what goes on your body is key so the only choose bioactive benefit skin health and ingredients that protect the efficacy AC- of the formula and make their products a pleasure to use the result is clean safe skin-care with no toxins no harsher controversial chemicals and no potential Ashley ear tents ever. It's perfect for people like me that have super irritable skin and it's not enough to just offer clean products. They need to be cleaned the planet and have pledged to zero waste by two thousand twenty one. It's amazing and they've updated their cult favorite perfect canvas clean primer and I never realized that I needed a primer until I I started using this one so if you guys want to check out Ren cleaned skincare and get twenty percents off all full size items including perfect canvas go to USA dot Ren Skincare Dot Dot com and use our code I again that's USA DOT Aryan Skin Care Dot com and use our promo code. I for twenty percent off there was a defense type wound to her middle finger where attendant was cut and there were several anti mortem head injuries including Bruce Lips and eyelids a chain abrasion fingernail marks and an indication of running being injuries member. We talked about that with her pantyhose. Yeah there were three stab wounds to the neck that were found to be consistent with wounds inflicted by dull pocket knife or a letter opener there was ante mortem bruising to the left nipple consistent with pinching as well as ante mortem impact abrasions. We're talking about a total of nineteen stab wounds fourteen of which were located between the left breast and the left abdomen abdomen so that would indicate potentially just looking at this over count overkill but also write a righty. Oh there was a bruce to the right thigh and a rip which extended upward from the rectum and vagina into the pelvic area and this latter injury jury consisted of a vaginal hair and massive blunt force trauma to the area and both of these were also anti mortem injuries and Ante T. mortem means. You're still alive when it happens. They concluded that Tracy had been dead at least eight hours prior to the discovery of her body and the day after Tracy's autopsy she was buried at Elmwood cemetery and Birmingham. There were hundreds of people who attended the funeral and a lot of them more strangers who simply wanted to comfort Tracy's family after hearing the horrific details of her murder there was an outpouring of support support from the community but with that comes an incredible amount and outpouring of media coverage because things like this. Let's just didn't happen in Birmingham Alabama. This is not just another typical homicide. Panic started sweep through the streets when people learned learned of the manner in which Tracy was killed. It's something that was like a punch in the gut to everyone in the community who would do this and why I mean we're dealing with an incredible amount of fear because it wasn't just she was stabbed until she was dead. There was a time of mutilation it it seemed driven van by something sadistic and scary and you know this is a wholesome Bible Belt community. They just did not know what to think about thefts and Elizabeth was experiencing the effects of what she had seen in witnessed so after finding Tracey's buddy. I started to have nightmares for we you know I'm not there at the time decided it was time to have me read the Ted Bundy Book. I'm a little bit sometimes. It gets as maybe not the sound is fine too. thought that would be like that way to you know really helped help me understand what was going on out in the world and so I immediately though started you know participate have flashbacks the image of the body and it would come over and over and over and it was not not not pleasant at all. I didn't really understand what was going on. then I would like I said wake up screaming. I was terrified so police start their investigation and they're trying to first piece together Tracy's movements from the night she went missing. She told her co workers that she was exhausted and she was going right home. She left she walked towards the post office. which is a block away where she had parked nineteen seventy-three any three black Chevy monte-carlo so they figured out that Tracy probably made it to her car so she must have encountered something between tween where she was parked and her house and they went through her inner circle the men she dated friends family? They got nothing. All they learned was that Tracy was beloved. She had no enemies. She wasn't involved in anything nefarious. Every road that they went down was a dead end in her murder was really starting to look like some type of random encounter so the scene Mar Tracy was found was processed for evidence and they concluded that this place at the bottom of the bridge was not where she had been killed so this was not a crime scene instead instead it was a dump site. It was also nineteen eighty-six which meant that. DNA was in its infancy. There is not much that they could find that was really that helpful role and no DNA evidence was found her clothes were gone. There were no footprints. There was blood on the bridge that suggested that her body had been thrown to the bottom but that's that's it however there was one speck of evidence that was found on Tracy's body and that was a single piece of reddish glitter that I was found on her knee and glitters pretty obscure they had no idea what to do with this or how to really use it to find the person who had killed her. I I think what also made it even more horrific as as detail started her vagina has been gutted she'd they had been stabbed either seventeen or nineteen times her breasts had been like at a little bit and and you could see that from the bridge and then there was the politically they found on hers have been came and the community a hysteria of this is so witchcraft thing because in the eighties growing up everything was all about dungeons and dragons and serial killing. Are We have a dragon which murder going on but there would be one more significant piece of evidence that would come up a woman named Lilli Daniels she had read about the victims of murder and was walking to a store on the city's north side when she found the victims partially we burn driver's license on the ground and she immediately called the police and the police came and got it and the cops spoke to her parents parents and learned that Tracy always kept her license on her in her pocket. Instead of intersperse police decide to hold back this info so they didn't release at least this to the media so the public caught wind of some of the details of this investigation probably because some of those Li John Purpose so they could try to find a suspect and probably because I mean the rumor mill was churning so the notion that this could have been a random encounter horrified them and they learned that nobody nobody in her immediate family or friends had been zeroed in on as a suspect in. Everyone was worried that a serial killer could be on the loose. Could this type of murder happened again in seriously the entire town was on edge and believe that the next person was going to turn up dad any moment now that was the biggest murder that had ever happened in Birmingham like when I say biggest I mean the goriest most coverage Tracy was very beautiful. She was white she had blond hair and as we know unfortunately those tend the crime that gets less coverage in the media but the fact that she was that Tracy was dumped over Bridger Mountain broke was just very very shocking shocking for everyone people were they had their guard up people were hyper aware and it was really really terrifying because they did not find a killer. Okay so very interesting. I personally was very curious about what glitter could be used for in terms of witchcraft because I see glitter as like a very commercially produced thing when you think witchcraft for me at least I think like a bundle of sage or like frogs. I you know it the things that they use in Hocus pocus for the random organic stuff and but apparently glitter glitter is just not something that you had it doesn't have a connotation like I pagan or witchcraft what you associate with a Strip club basic bell or crafting or which I'm a fan of yeah but anyway so I googled what glitter could be used for an in sort of witchcraft according to a post in the witch circle which is a message board says also so glitter is a booster of sorts to amplify intent to explore effectiveness typically the addition of glitter and when they say affected effectiveness they mean of a spell typically the addition of glitter is best utilized in money spells as it is symbolically more festive and celebrate Tori however however for spouse requiring more of an instant razzle-dazzle which is one of my favorite terms s attracting new love nailing job interview. It doesn't shy away from serving serving. It's purpose plus as burns it can be used as a form of divination much like tasks geography to Grafitti is a method did for fortune telling that uses tea leaves or coffee grounds or wine sediments thinking like you throw some glitter end because it's it's all about where the water throws these pigments that events yeah. I think that's what they're going for interesting. Well you you ladies. Who have your glitter leftover from Your glory days? You know what to do with it. Now spell exactly Jacqueline. Did you have a question. Oh my question was just thought glitter I believe is plastic. Burning plastic creates toxic fumes. I think is glitter like metal and I think it's a little metal or just plastic thought it was magic. Oh I thought it was very tells yes rainbows and sunshine but so what's going on here is that this is we're in in the mid eighty s and people heard glitter and people heard witchcraft and they went right to the devil worship and Satan what was going on on now we had the mcmartin case which is a big case in California of the this daycare that was being accused of molesting children via witchcraft. You had a a little bit later on you. Had the Rickie Casio case New York on Long Island you had all of these cases where there was so much of what they called Satanic Panic Yeah and and we're also for here in the Bible Belt so this is going to be really scary for everyone will and these are the people who were hyper reactive to it. Yeah where it's like you z. a. a heinous crime then you hear the person is listening to music that has like the mention of Seton or this or that. They're going to immediately jump up to like the devil and I feel like in coastal cities. were less susceptible to that. Even at this time I mean clearly not because the mcmartin case happened opened in Huntington Beach City but I feel like back then when this happened given the like unnecessary mutilation of the body and it's just the shock value illicit since something like dot crazy of a murder hadn't happened there right a wildfire like that. It's not just like somebody turns up dead under a bridge like there's a lot more to that that is horrifying for everybody around and that's the we're talking about. Birmingham and Birmingham is one of the most racially divided cities apper and also conservative of and there were a ton of religious of horrible crimes that had been committed there but when they saw something like this and and God and the devil everything so much of a part of their life on Sunday and then that branches out that's where they're gonNA go. They're going to point to it and they're going to say you know what this can't be something that happened with a corner regular regular person they would do really bad stuff to people above collar but they would be yeah for then they'd be like no. This can't happen here. This has to have been committed by somebody that was under control of Seattle title and it was such a big deal on the news all the time you know we haven't found the killer most gruesome body in Birmingham history. When are we going to find on the killer? When are we going to find the killer and it became a thing recently where the media was soaking the fear of the community and and so for months I used to think well I bet that you know whoever dumped her body was probably in those would would call us and is now gonNA come find us because they had says that the police had said you know we had found hearst of quickly they wouldn't have been able to get an ID that quickly and able to work on the case set quickly and there was no her body Hatton decomposed composed at all so in my mind that meant that we had done something that would upset this killer Thursday on CBS? Get ready to be mesmerized by the most unique and inventive new show this season from the executive producers of the good fight comes a new series evil. Evil is a mystery that examines the Line Between Science and Religion Cau- harbors plays Christian Boo Shard a forensic psychologist who is hired by a priest and training played by Mike Colter he needs her skeptical mind to help investigate the churches backlog of unexplained mysteries they they will examine claims of miracles demonic possession huntings and everything in between is that science or supernatural that is the question that they'll try to answer her the brilliance of Michael Emerson as their name assist arrival psychologist working for the dark side and after a Dave investigating kristen goes home to her four four young daughters and one very British demon he may only be in her mind but maybe not so get cozy blanket curl up on the SOFA and prepared to be surprised is in very entertained evil premier Thursday at ten PM Eastern and Pacific and nine pm central on CBS so as news of this case permeated witnesses from the night Tracy went missing started to come forward a man named James is at Dudley Parker came forward and told police that he had seen Tracy after she had left for work that night and she was even still wearing her uniform James New Tracy because he'd worked with author at a restaurant a few years back and on the night he'd seen her they were at Tom and Jerry's convenience store at a gas station on the south side of Birmingham mm-hmm he saw trees out of the store right before he did and he stood in the cashier line behind her and washed her by two quarts of Motor oil they acknowledged pitch other briefly and then she walked out and was going towards a light blue car and when James Parker left the storm self he looked toward the left and he saw saw a man in a nineteen sixty nine to nineteen seventy-one blue dots and or a Toyota and it seemed like the man was waiting on Tracy and he took a good look could him because he assumed that this was probably tracey's boyfriend was beautiful right yeah. He's like he's he said more in depth interviews like well you know I worked with her once she was is this pretty girl and I wanted to see what her husband or boyfriend. What the deal too same thing as googling absolutely people's significant others are so the following day day when James found out about tracy being murdered he calls the cops right away as he should as you always said and he gives a description of the man when he had seen that was he was waiting on Tracy? He described the person as a white male thirty to thirty two years old with dark with dark hair worn in a ponytail. Now the police had something to go on and they had a place. It's a start looking for clues. which was Tom and Jerry's gas station right so the police go to Tom and Jerry's and they speak to employees there? In that employee tells them that yes us. He remembered a blonde female around twenty six who was wearing a restaurant uniform coming in and asking for assistance in selecting two courts of motor oil then found Tracy's disabled Black Chevy Monte Carlo nearby on Eighteenth Street on the south side of Birmingham Immingham but before doing this even I mean the guy who worked at the gas station show them it was back in the day when you had a cash register that just spat out about the long strip of sales so we showed them like listen like it was like a dollar sixty nine for each court and they show them like this was the sale they they had a time stamp. I mean it corroborated exactly with this other witness that said Brench made him very credible and made them believe the account of the person tracy swift even more after they found Tracy's car mechanic inspected the vehicle and found that it had about starter and that you know once it was cranked fuel would run out of the fuel pump and the engine would stop running in that they also found that the car was to courts over overfilled with motor oil they ask Tracy's family about this in the dodd in this. It's heartbreaking because it reminds me of my dad because every time I have a problem with my car I call my dad but that said you know I. The one thing I taught tracy was how to fill her own oil and it's the only thing she knew how to do so. If there was something wrong with a car she thought she was out of oil or low and oil and it just wouldn't something wrong with her car. She had to be oil the oil she wouldn't she got oil and she tried to rethought herself and it was like the car was to courts over like car is fine but she's like Oh. My Dad taught me it's oil we all and she tried it. Just breaks breaks my heart so police were canvassing this entire area and they've he then eventually found two empty quarts of oil. Will you know oil cans with price labels like those in a fifty five gallon garbage can near where her car was found so at this point they're starting to piece together. A Theory Tracy left work but sometime on her drive home or car broke down. There were no cellphones back then so think about this your only choice as a woman. Your car breaks down to accept help from a stranger or do I walk somewhere. That's that's terrifying. It's terrifying. Those are your only choices both would be considered now probably a high risk choice. You don't have another choice at at that time so those were her choices and basically they believed a stranger picked her up offered to help her brought her to buy oil and then went back to her car with oil when the car still didn't start this stranger offered to drive her home in sometime between then because they know the oil went into her car because her car was to courts overfilled so they know that she made it back to her car but sometime hi between then and when she was supposed to be driven home she disappeared so they have a good theory and they believe that that's when she was killed over handful of weeks leaks James Parker assisted in making a composite drawing of the man that he saw he reviewed hundreds of photos of mugshot books and accompanied members of the sheriff's department on several several occasions to southside nightspots attempt to spot the man that he had seen on the night of the murder gyms Pirker was even put under hypnosis no says to try and shake some loose memories or identifiers of the suspect from that night but nothing ended up working and we've talked about this before another episodes but you know something that I despise was was starting to come into this investigation and it was. I think it's important for this episode. It's another thing it's eighty six to to to put us in the correct time understood this was commonplace. We saw Austin Katie Beers was like this was big in Katie bears like helping to solve it and this was later than this the only reason why I like it it is in the sense and what we're talking about. Everybody is we're talking about psychics and I don't believe in it but what it does for for me what I what the only reason why I think it's okay is because it gives the local press another thing to write about and keep keep it in the consciousness. Keep it keep it in the news cycle. Oh a psychic came and whatever and you know it's it's pretty much denounced right now l. but you're right Alexis in the eighties. It was like Oh a psychic came in and they were they were using psychics back in Boston Strangler. They yeah I coming back in the sixties. There no doubt no doubt eighties Joe Doubt Nine these they were still doing it subsided however it was one of the top shows like long nyland museum was still topping Charts Pass twenty ten. We'll people still believe I mean of course but I'm saying like it's not it's it's crazy when you think about it. In terms of police work now but it only became like quackery and the nineties late nineties yeah so they start calling and especially given the circumstances of the case because we've got the glitter the devil worship the severe mutilation of the body and also the intense media covered so they're all coming out of the woodwork now of course because they probably feel compelled to basically they're like clairvoyance decision Asian goodness so months passed and any new leads were coming to a halt so they had nothing to go off of in terms of who or why or what or any thing else they looked for Prince. They looked for everything that they could given the limitations nations they had as far as their technology and they had nothing all they had was this little speck of glitter had been months with no movement and the investigation instigation when another bizarro psychic kind of thing came in it was November fourth when an attorney named Bob Bob Sanford called the detectives working on the case he said that his client named Tommy broadly claim to be having quote visions from God related to Tracy's murder case and he wanted to tell them all the information that he now so the next day the police met with Bradley and his attorney and the attorney said to the police Lisa Bradley would happily share whatever he knew as far as his visions. If the police would tell them why he was being followed the police were super puzzled by him because he was not being followed especially not by them and the police at this point. We're thinking that WHO's probably suffering from a mental illness possibly experiencing some kind of a paranoia so they did a cursory interview but nothing this guy was saying was really holding weight and he also didn't share any info that wasn't already publicly accessible by the news and the media right and you see this a lot when you find for example. If if there's a child found you've got like two hundred people coming forward claiming to be they're lost mother. I mean for some reason when when these kind of cases that are highly controversial come into the spotlight it resonates with and especially back then to remember. We're talking about the eighties before the Internet before everything you see it a little bit to see it lasts now back then though l. when things weren't Google Bulla whatever you would have people that would try to inject themselves into the store taste better for him attack her now to picture fail to go out with ARETHA car. There's a there is it is his SOCI- storm they had this thing allies into timeshare mall basic Sir than ever so what you just heard were some very very old and poor quality audio clips from the interview with Tommy Bradley and as you can hear he says very creepy stuff. He believes the killer was in a state of mind where he wanted a girlfriend. He talks about Tracy going to buy oil about her going to Tom and Jerry's but these were all things that had been reported on widely in the local newspapers I so is this creepy yes. Is it a smoking gun. Does it implicate Tommy in any railway. No you know they had this interview with Tommy Bradley then they had another call and Bradley. There's two days later. Bradley was making even more stranger claims and the police thought it was and they still didn't know what to make of it right because I mean they had been receiving all these calls from psychics I mean how do you know how to differentiate what to you but you have to run everything of course then they did they did and so in the months that followed these calls. The police were following following leads but they never took their eye off of Tami Bradley because they had a weird feeling about him and the detective kept over poor with with him and decided just to keep them talking 'cause they had no idea what he would eventually say and tie Bradley seems like oddly invested in it and they just got a weird feeling. It's the same thing you get when they anticipate. Criminals coming back to the crime scene are coming to vigils like this guy had he was like a moth off to a flame in terms of this case in this report kept going for months and even though Tommy Bradley hadn't shared anything explicit elicit as far as things that weren't available to the public he had this gut feeling and he was just going to keep this going so with this revelation. The police are starting to think that this guy could be a viable suspect. So who is he exactly Thomas. Paul Bradley was a twenty six year old from the Center Point area of Alabama which is UH supper of Birmingham. Yes he had gone to the local Bible College and he was extremely religious and belonged to a fundamentalist gentlest church he wasn't married and he had recently been divorced and had no kids but could Tom Bradley really be Tracy's killer and he was good looking. I mean he he was like his attractive sort of babyfaced mustache theory ordinary looking guy hi so they didn't know I mean he was kind of like a Bible thumper dude and it was sort of anyone's guess and that's the thing it's like is he. Just this fundamentalist Celeste. is He really seeing visions from God or like. Is there something mess up about him that we're reading to. Are we reading into this too much. so the detective he's got the rapport with him and he asks him sort of like nonchalantly. Have you had any other visions about traces murder and Tommy. It's like yeah so they meet again two days later and he said he actually believed that he could take AAC the police to key locations from the murder so over two days he takes them around all these different locations in Birmingham and the Birmingham area any actually points out the exact location where Tracy's car had been found which was not released to the public. This is some that they head to the public and he also directed the officers to this bridge and that was the same one that Tracy had been found beneath and when they arrive there he asked the cops he was just like stopped the car and he proceeds to speak in tongues and you know just sort of doing this sort of gibberish unintelligible sounds for thirty to forty minutes while he's gripping the dashboard and the door handle they all get out of the car and he explains that the victim's body had thrown from the opposite side of the bridge where it was actually found right so the police are just like Oh my God because it's all adding up I mean this guy knows things that no one should know and they're not sure if his dramatics are are his attempts fainting psychic ability or or feigning innocence I mean they're they're all trying to read his body language like in what he's doing but no one's doing that successfully because it's just very bizarre but they had very very many conversations with Tommy and they were all recorded and on these audiotapes Tummy Bradley describes visions he had actually as the killer in an one recorded session. He said in his his direct quote he seemed girls that he thought were attractive attractive enough to go out with even if he had to kill them before and before we continue I think we should bring it up he. He's like in Ohio in Saul yeah he really is an og and sell he's an og install. In the more we learn about this I mean I don't think we should get new conversation. I think we should do it at at the end but that hadn't occurred to me until just now but let's get into it after bright so he also gave graphic details about the murderer and Tracy's final terrifying being moments he said quote she knew she was being killed when that you know when that knife started in her third time and she uttered her lost conscious willful volition thoughts to God and towards herself in towards her friends and mother at that time and that was that I don't know what's happening to me but I want y'all. I want y'all to find the sky so these interviews with Tommy Bradley continued in one of them. He set something that essentially sealed his guilt in the eyes of law enforcement. Tami Bradley says there is there something else about her license. What's the killer may have burnt it with a cigarette lighter? The Tommy said that one of his visions quote unquote he could see even killer burned something plastic like the victims driver's license and threw it out on the road in this is one of the only pieces says if information like Billy said earlier in the top of the episode when Lillian came forward and talked about finding the driver's license they did not release so the public. This is not something anybody else could know but what Tommy said was you know he he he saw in a vision that this driver's license he's had been burned whether it's by a lighter or aflame something to that effect in that you know the fact that he's privy to the information that only the killer would now it really on nudge the police in that direction that this guy was involved and he also knew Oh that Tracy kept her driver's license inner pocket in her jeans rather than in her purse wallet and that is something something that just her family had told the police he also knew that Tracy read the power of positive thinking the book and that's something that the police also learned from her family and it's something he recounted over and over again when he said to the police what he saw in his visions and there's no way that Tommy Bradley could have known these things had he not been the killer himself and luckily for the police. Tommy kept doing something that you want your suspect to do you want them to disk. Keep talking and he keeps talking. He talks about these visions of the murder for twenty hours. He describes in detail detail about how the killer came upon this woman how he told her you know what I can help you out. Doc just get along with me how he beat her out he abused or sexually and then how he killed her. He stated that the killer had had come upon this disabled vehicle that he came up to her and said I'm going to help you and fixed car and then expressed concern though that you're not gonNa make it home so I'm GonNa take you when you come to Tom and Jerry's where will buy oil and then he waited there for her in his car and then offered to take her home and then she said yes he's he's basically giving the police like what they're already theorising that happened and he continued. He said that Tracy tried to run this direct quote that when the killer when he says the killer I mean this is essentially a confession when the killer realized that the victim was performing sexual acts wchs only to save her life. He began stabbing her that she started fighting him that as he was killing her he shouted you ugly beast that although she appeared to be dead after the third stop he continued to stop her eight to fourteen more times to make sure that she was dead that he then mutilated related her internally probably with an unusual knife with a big wooden handle or with a comb that he performed witchcraft on her that he took from her neck a gold chain with something hanging on it and that when he realized that she was dead he professed. I'm sorry I'm sorry I killed you. Tracy new quote she was going to be killed said it was inevitable and that the Tracy had authorized yourself to be killed because she had willfully sent the killer's motive was less in revenge based on a girl in his past in-cell. I'm sorry based on a girl in his past get accepted so I'm sure after listening to hours and hours of true crime podcast watching true crime shows you feel a little bit spooked at night in your home home and you know you want to feel safe and secure in the comfort of your own home while you're sleeping at night and that's why today's podcast is sponsored by Adt and with Adt you you can get all the latest innovation and Smart Home Security combined with twenty four seven monitoring from the most trusted name in home security you can have a team of professionals nationals designing and installing a secure smart home just for you there's eighteen thousand employees safeguarding you from with connection to first responders and with Adt can get a secure smart home with everything from video doorbells indoor and outdoor Cameras Smart Lacson likes all controlled from the ADT APP or the sound of your voice and that includes getting professionally monitored carbon monoxide and smoke detectors and all this is a system custom designed to fit at your home and you can get safety on the go in the car when the kids are at school with the at go APP or with the SOS button so go check out adt today and in these conversations Tami Bradley described the killer as someone like me as having an above average I q being well-versed in the Bible and strong willed he said the killer loved Blondes and loved to inflict pain during sex and he also made sure to highlight that the killer was very concerned about his mother not finding out about the crime he said that the killer quote feels that his mother would be very disappointed in him and the killer had been molested by his mother when he was a very young child and that the killer would come forward right now and be executed on public TV TV in front of the whole world if the killer could keep his mother from finding out he had done something like this again we have to stop because it's very reminiscent of our last episodes and you see this a lot. In these sort of these mother hangups yeah well listen one of the most famous in its fictional but it does have a ring of truth while we're going to go with that was going to quit psycho course and it does have a lot of truth in there. It really does yeah the relationship with his mom. We talked about in Los Episode though that there are so many Keller's and serial killers that do kill like pretty strongly related to mommy slanted Ted the mom yeah what's interesting about it and you hear all the time with women like Daddy Issues Daddy issues you. Don't your mommy issues that much because many there bury it yeah yeah or they carry it out true. It's either you don't even know they have mommy issues because they just don't date a lot or they're like sort of loners or just or they. It's so manifest in like an extremely volatile way actually yeah so the police start digging into you there are suspect and they learn that Tommy was a former former high school chaplain as a teenager he was described as nice looking clean cut and religious. He is good looking good looking so they approached he had actually had an ex wife. They approached the ex wife to speak to her about Tommy and what she said was that two years before the murder when they were still married she was his inside Tommy's car and had seen a little bottle of red and pink glitter when she asked about this. What's this litter about? He said that he used the glitter to perform witchcraft. which is the first time he ever mentioned anything about witchcraft throughout their entire urge so with this revelation about the glitter compounded with everything else that they had the Birmingham Sheriff's department finally felt like they had they needed for the arrests? They'd been waiting to to make Tommy Paul. Bradley was taken into custody at his family's home. He was charged with a capital offence of committing the murder Dr Tracy Shetland during sexual assault so once Tommy was in custody. It's shown a big spotlight on him. The flood gates is opened and people started coming forward having their own experiences with him and a woman named Jody Thompson came forward and detail chilling encounter she had with Tommy Bradley in the early morning hours of June twenty fifth one thousand nine hundred eighty six tracy went missing on July thirteenth. Just just for some perspective SA's like two weeks three weeks before wall. Jody was driving home on the Red Mountain Expressway from southside bar. Tommy in his automobile attempted to force her third by ramming her car a high speed chase down the US highway ensued in which showed his car was bombed several roll times by this person and she was eventually forced to stop showed. He rolls her window at some point and exclaimed. What on Earth do you think you're trying to do in my theory is yes? That's like the Virgin mother or what are you doing. He was trying to kill her so I'm sure there were expletives involved. She could see the man Dan was trying to ram her off. The road had his penis out and was masturbating so she merely rolled her window and locked doors and sped away. Hi Tommy again chased her down at high speeds. When Jodi brought her Carter a screeching halt? Tommy zoomed away. Jody thought she was safe. She turned her car on and starting during driving back to Birmingham but suddenly Tommy showed back up again ramming her once more eventually she stopped at a traffic light and he got out of his automobile. Luckily her doors were locked but he got out with his pants down his penis fully exposed and began banging hanging his fists on the window of Jody's Card muttering something unintelligible all presumably speaking in tongues finally Jodi sped away and she lost lost him. She reported the incident to the police but can you imagine not having a cell phone and this happening to you so scary especially in the backwoods roads of Alabama listen at least belly like long island certain roads someone comes by every five to ten minutes. Yeah aw these roads are even worse than what I'm used to which is five minutes. This is like every twenty minutes me. Maybe this guy is ramming her stroking his penis. It's like she knows this is a sexual offender like that. Would I just read is my nightmare. It's terrifying and with no cell phone to call for help. You're you think you're about to die. It's just a nightmare so not surprisingly that's not the only incident of him being a creep creep. Another local young woman named Cathy ledbetter came forward should yet another ominous story about him at five thirty. Am On July tenth nineteen eighty eighty six three days before he murdered Tracy Yeah Cathy was on the south side looking for a gas station and she approached a car asking the driver if he knew where she could find one he he said that there is a gas station opened a few blocks away. She said thanks and left didn't think anything of it and we'll copy was driving to find this place. She noticed the man was following her in his car. When she pulled into the gas station parking lot he pulled up right beside her and she could see through the window that he had his pants down and was masturbating? She called him a sick mother. Burn ran into the building and Tommy drove away. Thank God and it didn't stop there. So the first one was in the last week of June the next one and was on July tenth and then on July Twelfth. It was a woman named Karen McKEN. She said that and this is the night before Tracy's he's murder. She stopped at a southside convenience store to use the phone and she was attacked by Tommy. She said she walked past past while she was on her phone and then suddenly out of nowhere he grabbed her face and slammed it against the window and he then grabbed her chest in order not to scream and then but karen screamed anyway which you should always do and and just started hitting her with the pay phone receiver and he had his pants down he actually fled and Karen reported this to the police. So what we've got here is he is. He's ramping up. He's us. He's going from the last week. In June I two three days before the attack a day before the attack and he's trying and also he's beaten in face ace by a payphone with the last person he attempted to assaults which might just like amplify his frustration Gratien Walney is girls not that they keep getting away but he's not having the conclusion that he wants so he's probably getting more pissed off and you know he's probably strategies guy. I'm not nice enough. He's trial and error brings all within three weeks yeah no because he's thinking because obviously obviously tracy would not have gone into his car if you were down or if you try to just like grabber ahead bang it against a window so there was there was something between finessed ast approach something between those those episodes where he's thinking I can't do this. I can get this person to follow position. If I don't have my pants down right just insane disgusting so given we learn about the women who've come forward and given what we know about the evidence that we have the arrest is obvious. The indictment is cemented. Now with the prosecutors needed was a conviction that would be a little bit harder to cement as it always is as even innocent people go free but fifty nine witnesses total were called the testify including his ex wife Ruth Miller who you mentioned earlier talked about the glitter and like we said she mentioned the glitter she mentioned that he was a devout Bible reader that he was fascinated by blondes and that he dabbled in witchcraft and according to an article for the Alabama Journal she said on the stand stanton. He told me he liked blonde haired blue eyed girls in that he just liked to have a lot of sex but in addition to that during the trial jurors was also heard these hours of confessions that were taped by the Birmingham Sheriff's department they listen to everything he had ever said so not surprisingly Elizabeth who discovered the body who had discovered the blood on the bridge was called to testify the. Da's decided that one of the three of us had to testify. I'm I'm also the one that found the plus and I hey can met this. They're just like teenage Shane that goes along with this but when like this huge case was going on and you know all these articles on and everybody's talking about it there's as teenagers there's a tiny part of me that was like and this is a little bit cool. You know I found this this body and I'm gonNA testify and and you know and and I I hate to even admit it but it was something that I kind of almost cool and the day of the well actually the day before and it's got a little more real so I went to testify and the advice that hasn't given was just don't look at him. Don't look Tommy Bradley's Nice To. I was like all right. I'm totally not gonNA look at him. out there terrified any coolness that I thought what about being able to testify was completely gone. As soon as I sat down and raise my right hand and I thought what who why why would you even eighteen just bought all this is horrible. Elizabeth could see Tracy's family sitting in the front row of the court you know I don't Tracy's family family sitting there. In the first row there they're crying. They're real everything became extremely yell and she found herself staring into the eyes of the killer himself Tami Bradley and of course immediately I looked over to my right and they're the Tami Bradley family and he's just strange strange looking fella. He kind of I mean he was quote unquote moral buddy ah but at the same time I mean he had like hair intentionally. He's young twenty six or twenty seven and I've come to the baby's face space and I think that's one of the things that struck me was his baby face but with these is and is just like hollow literally literally felt like they had nothing in them no motion nothing and I kept looking at him and he would just keep burying me in this way that to me he just felt so creepy and so terrifying and again after I testified I was thinking about all the time I'm like Oh great. He's not gonNA kill then. We're finding the body soon. He's GonNa kill me because my name and then they have been in the papers and now now you know he's going to go to jail and he's GonNa State and he's GonNa come and he's got a bird and what was I think alarming to me is how accurate not not look at him. He would look turn around and look at the audience. Serve the Yeah I guess you call them the galleries all the time and kind of break all of them out because that's just not normal behavior. Tommy broadly was convicted of capital murder and he was facing execution by the electric electric chair however the jury and judge spared him the death penalty and he was given life without parole in Tracy's family went up to Elizabeth's mother. They're actually after the trial and had some kind words for them. For my mother said at the very end of the trial that the Shetland family came out to my mother are and introduce themselves and of course she knew they were and they said you know we just wanted to thank you so much. three extend your thanks our thanks to your God or finding our daughter so quickly they were so grateful that we get her as quickly as we could and get her home with the Lord word and we're just so sorry that she had to see her in that condition and we wish that she could have met her under a different ah under different circumstances and they talked about what a lovely woman their daughter does and I just remember you know even now makes Pasto go little bit tearful just thinking of this family that has lost their daughter or their pride and joy Chia dennard walls both she was at the you you know peak of her life and there's such a kind family that what they think about is me. I thought about them. Many many years since then and I know that the brother is still alive and so I'm thinking about writing him a letter Dan just telling him what his parents is but also explaining how I had us in some ways it's sister's death for positive and to help other victims of sexual assault and sexual violence in my career as a psychotherapist yes so after this experience after experiencing this trauma at a young age she also experienced some other very traumatic events in college. Elizabeth actually decided to pursue a career in psycho therapy to help others not only did she help you know survivors of rape and sexual violence like she just mentioned but her own traumatic experiences allowed out her way to connect with veterans about some of what they are going and have gone through and then all says prising -ly been able to help better and and where I work with soldiers to come back from war through just very very small understanding I have to finding one body and knowing how much saying one body mess with me and screwed me and thinking about my soldiers his wall for multiple body stumping their people they knew from being their friends. Being you know mass graves. It's something that they've never seen their lives but it gave me just a teeny when of contact but it it it did help battle in terms of being able to relate to the veterans as well. It's really incredible that Elizabeth managed to turn a horrible traumatic situation situation that she experienced when she was fourteen into something meaningful. We've both read the book by Viktor Frankl man search for meaning and the Femur that book is you find meaning in your suffering great or small. It is the way to take the power back and Elizabeth you manage to do that as well as help. Keep Tracy's memory alive so thank you so. What did we learn today you know he he definitely has when you're looking at him could could he? You've been a serial killer that that's the question he was definitely Eh. He was leading a he. He confessed to it when he was talking about. How the killer he didn't want his mom to see him do this again? That's the way tots of women yes you've been through many. He was ramping. All of this up and nasty. Women are driving next twenty minutes just like this sect impulse. It's like a organized lust thing that he's just he's just not smart enough to control but it's weird though that he does control it with his last last victim and he does say I can't do that stuff. I've got to keep it in control is talking about because he doesn't have his pants off because he had his pants off with her into into Lewis really well. No he wised up. That's what I know so he had seen he's like. I can't have my dick out. I just have the wherewithal thought to do that. Draws Impulses enough to actually get her in the car which shows that that you know we yes. We often talk about well. How many times you're going to try to approach co-chairwoman masturbating in thinking they're going to get in the car with you? Literally every time punching the facing called the woman in this world would be like this is a great car to get into all those guys in junk and also they say I when I'm walking down the street and a truck drives by me and whistles and hawks on my cousin ever worked for you learn ignore me and I'll get in your truck back with another girl in front of me and I want to listen. I passed a guy recently. That was masturbating next to me. It's it's way more common that you than you would think the that's the thing that is such scary behavior. It's not like Oh this guy's just a creep. It's like no no that is our mall. They cannot control themselves sexually and that's new surveys escalate control its control for sure all right well a big big think you'd Elisabeth for being our first reconnection sharing your store and trusting us with your story Q. And thank you for the work. You're doing with with our veterans. Yes yeah we appreciate it very much so much. if anybody listening is one degree away from a murder or other stranger than fiction story lease write US hello at the first degree podcast dot com you can read us on Instagram at first degree addicts linkletter Appalachians and attract Panik. Go Buy some. I agree merge on our website. We got lots of fun stuff up there and again. Give us a five serve you on apple podcasts and enter or to win some March and if you WANNA stick around for a little bit a killing time than stick around after these ads sixty seconds. That's exactly how long this commercial last four and you know what else that you can do in just about a minute you can get an offer for your car with Truecar car. That's right and the amount of time that it takes to floss your teeth. Pet your dog do few sit ups. Make a cup of coffee or just listen to the sound of my beautiful voice choice. 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A. but do you download episodes of the Hollywood filter every week on on apple podcasts or podcast one all right so welcome back taller second installment of killing time and you're not even going to try to say the killing time the killing time killing time the killing time okay well. I made a post on facebook group. If you guys are not a member of it. Please join asking what you guys want to to hear US talking about and I think for first second episode of killing time everybody wants to know how we know each other and like how we we became this this. That's a fair question Yeah Alexis. Would you like to explain how you and I met yeah our our mutual best friend Anna I met in the line of big Wang's when I was twenty years old which was a Shitty shitty bar on Choline Gaza where I used to go all the time time with my fake. Id It was the only one of the only bars would take bouncer Steve would just look people in with their fake ID's all phony for birthday there and he was like what what you're not twenty one and I'm like what I had the same thing there I been going for three years and then finally turned twenty one like hasty Tony uh-huh wait what courtney so I met Anna in the bathroom and then we'll just start hanging out and then Jack and I moved in together in this crazy crazy house in at the base of the Hollywood hills in Franklin village we call it the Pink Pink House and we had just the craziest year our lives it was it was glory days. It was like a Frat House. it wasn't like a sorority house it was it was the Frat House. It was disgusting. It was dirty. Well just having a good. We had parties parties every day. Harvey wasn't dirty. It wasn't clean it was it wasn't dirty clean. When I moved out we had a rat that that lived in our house and I had gone on the warped tour over the summer and when I came home there was a ratchet all over my room you and then I never went in? I like left all my stuff. Samarra like this is all right. I guess I don't own it was fun. It was fine and then Alexis. How do you know billy so billion? I met actually the first time I ever saw belly. was that the smoke house that's right. What's the smoke very famous smoke house which is a it's a restaurant slash bar? You're very old school outside of the Warner Brothers Lot. Oh it's like deals are made and everything and I think actually we were. We were just talking about names production companies and things that we've got yeah. I think George Collins Production Company is called Smoke House. Oh the smokehouse uh-huh well. It's actually an interesting story so I was working on a show for the golden state killer prior to the arrest yeah and it was at the same time that Michelle was still working on her book when we were still in way pre production and where was working somebody maybe a colleague of my name's Todd was like Billy Jenine like what about them and their relationship with him. I'm like I don't know okay and and I followed billy on twitter like five followers. I didn't really have a twitter and billy like wanted nothing to do with me. It's not right before you met her or after you met her before trying to get away from us. We kind of just have him like encapsulated. Take me and he was like nope. I want nothing to do so that's pretty much true. Did you take Alexis Alexis seriously when you first met her because I met her yeah so I met her with we met at the smokehouse with the taxes and joke and todd but it was clear that Alexis knew more about the case than than Jokin Todd Todd New the most all right one Taylor Yeah Tana Todd told Michelle about it yeah like ten years before so I was amenable so we uh-huh yes we met we met there and it was it was fine. It was lovely but then what happened. Billy thought that I was sent in as a pawn to try try to coax information from would he did. He's like this is like a young attractive girl spy. That's what he thought that we became friends that we became friends I remember I don't know if this is before you met billy but you're showing me his website and you're like I WANNA cop. Yes I told him this. I told you this right. 'cause you're websites really cool. You have a very the layout is the aesthetic screening. It's cool the Bourbon I remember it distinctly and I've never seen it since because I don't have a reason on your website but of course the many in the about is like the many talents of Billy Johnson are like the many it's a series of unfortunate events. Yes uh I don't know I don't know what it says but then building I became friends. Should we tell them we went when after he became friends and yes we went to jumbo's clown okay so we were like we're going to be friends now. Let's Jumbo's clown room and we're GonNa talk to your crime yes for anybody. That doesn't know what was climbing. Explain at Jumbo's climbed room is probably one of the best most famous I I don't even want to call it a strip burlesque burlesque queens aren't they. They're they're clo hit tops and yeah. I don't. I'm so drunk every time they have to wear. They have to cover up. Everything Courtney love dance there. David Lynch used to write scripts from the bar there. It's like it's it's a very warm place comic. Yeah Yeah Weird nineties before that probably probably late eighties. You know it's been around for so long. They haven't redone anything inside. It's very interesting place like highly recommend going to if you ever come to. La If you ever come delays he goes one onto jumbo's clown room the bonding experience exactly and then the podcast came up. You're telling me you're like I really wanNA start a pot. Ah True Crime podcast. I wonder who should do it with well. Obviously I was like trying to get you to do with me and we'd never worked together never worked together but she jack knows that I'm an erotic super. Hard worker will never let anyone down and I knew Sh- anything she touches it will be successful so it was like a recipe recipe for success but you kind of you're like. I don't know I Kinda WanNa do this thing but I don't wait a second. I love true crime. I wanted to start a true sure crime podcast. Nobody'll ever take me seriously doing it myself. So we put our heads together. We're like what are we missing. We're missing listen. I could ability ready because they produce shows but billy's got like the real credibility fans right credit and true crime has mostly female fans and we were not gonna fly just doc. Let's be real now. They needed a man to lust over exactly for Bill Lee Jensen and leftover women to relate to yes so it's like a winning combination nation to have all three but we took billy two drinks at the broader room yes yes and he was like tell me what Gotcha got and we were like sup and Jacker like brainstorming at Soho House all day talking about it. We had finally no no. We'll blue meetings. We're brainstorming. I think when we first started talking we didn't have the idea for the I said well. What's the Hook Yeah? There's a million true crime podcast out there. What are we going to deliver? That's different. I like both of you won't really be the stranger but he's like Jack. I'd I like her retired. emo Kid my work. Ethic and I like your work ethic. But what are we gonna do what's going to be a TV. Show is going to be different than the other podcast and then you guys went back to the woodshed months. H How can I took it took a long. It was a year between when we first started like brainstorming to when we actually released the first episode of the podcast because we were brainstorming. We're like what's what's the hook. What's GonNa make us different? We're going back and forth and one day when we're just hanging out we're both talking. I was talking about the net and like Oh. It's weird that I like a mother of one of my like girls and my cheerleading team killed her husband and then you're talking about your story and we're like it's pretty crazy that there's so many people that are one degree away from something but you don't really talk about it. No I think it really just shapes you in a lot of weird ways and I mean like the episode we did today. I I mean she st- discovered the body of somebody in its shaped trajectory life yeah you know and because it didn't it's not just like oh I saw a body no big deal she was she had trauma from it and she ended up working in mental health and working with people who see bodies are traumatized by and I think the idea that the these are inconsequential things I think is crazy like this. These are our worst fears realized right and I think I think we're all we all feel really impacted by anything close to US right. You know whether it's like gossip or you know something traumatic or something scandalous like we all sort of like even if you're if you're best friends sheet it on you feel that that reverberates like it's when you're connected to stuff. It's almost like it's happening to you if you're not if you're not if you've empathy like bleed need people right. Now is a small like listen. We talk about psychopaths a lot statistically there aren't that many so why we're speaking speaking to the Lakers yeah but is it. Is it more because how do they really know. I don't know have you read the psychopath test. Gee I haven't read it in a long time but I have read yeah so I mean yeah they become see Ios or killers. What happens or data or politicians wish Jewish? It was a psychopath I've done life would be so much richer and you didn't eat. You didn't need human connection your they're not happy but you'd be they don't need happiness and eat happy. They live for pleasure yeah. They just do what's pleasurable. They don't need happiness. Yeah imagine that not needing happy. We know that sounds Nice. I clearly don't need it because I haven't had it my whole life I stay tuned. I'm working on that therapy guys for lexuses next therapy session okay well. I feel that was a good amount of killing time. We can kill some time. Eleven minutes and twenty four second killed some time there is that ship at your sign off. I think we will we. I think we enough time I think we killed. We'll figure it out. Somebody gives us a recommendation. Thanks for killing some time with us. Yeah

Tracy Shetland Tracy murder Birmingham Tommy Bradley Birmingham Tommy Billy Johnson United States Elizabeth Alabama Tracey apple Tom Alexis Jerry Ted Bundy Tracy Tommy Paul Jack Vanik
Episode 36: Ashlea Ann Harris

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Episode 36: Ashlea Ann Harris

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. So we're in early thirties, and we're really trying to keep our skin as young and moisture is and fresh as possible, and we can with the help of our new sponsor, higher education skin-care. We are obsessed with them, so not only is their packaging super q, which I obviously notice I, but their products are specifically formulated for jen's e and millennial girls. All their products are backed by strong science, or cruelty free, paraffin free, gluten free and dermatologist approved and they have super cute product names, like study, buddy, easy, and make out ready and we fell absolutely in love with their cram session vitamin infused hydrating lotion because it feels like heaven putting it on and it protects our skin with this ingredient called fractionation melanin which protects your skin from damaging HEB blue light that emits from all of our devices that we use. So if you want to check him out go to. Higher. Education, skincare dot com and use our code first degree for twenty percent off. Again, that's higher education skincare dot com with our code I degree for twenty percent off. Degree degree. I agree. First, the first degree. Supposed to have it in movies, not we alike. They really truly must have hated her to want to go to that extent. And you know, it, it easy to deal money, but I think this was about so much more than that. I think they were they were really just out to get revenge. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Lexus link ladder. And next Billy Johnson, two of my best DS. We are best friends now how fun is this really horse Billy to become best friend, but you like it toll the world. You liked tell them of the softer side, and how they can find you the softer side of the road is listening to this whole. The thing is that sad is like they can't see your is like. Yeah. To give him some subliminal messaging while recording. All right. But I'm gonna tell you guys what the politics fries. Fries. It's happy that appreciation day. I like that. Are there any? Well, you've got Batman. Of course, you've got considered the world's greatest detective and some people will argue that Trillo combs is the world's greatest detective. They have met in the comics before. But I do like that. But also, it is national cheese ball day, which is you. I'm a ball tree. You're totally issues. Pat, maybe like cheese to know your boy crash man crush. Jerry is a cheese all sees the biggest cheese. Here's a cheese ball, Jerry. Billy Jerry, where we're where is he? Jared is currently on tour like where where's he though? We currently on the plane and route to Europe right now, during little European stint in stint. Okay. But it is also national book mobile day. Do you guys remember the bookmobile? I do. Yes. Book fairs. It was, but it came on, like, okay Motors bring. Yeah. It was like the ice cream man. Yes. Yeah. But with books, and that's also scheming, they're not doing that anymore. And it's also librarians to now. So it's a very like a literate literature for heavy day. I'm into that. I like the cheese balls the best. I would love a Cheetos cheese puffs. Ooh, not doesn't sound good. He wanted to go you snack on, oh, badly. I know really. We need we need some crunchy snacks are holding off on sax. Okay. So I'm keeping on the train of bad reviews. Today's about review. Comes from Alexandra N dot e, I'm just gonna really call these people out. Okay. This subject is it can be better. You do a podcast and tell me how easy it is. I don't know how hard it is to do a podcast, you know, much researcher, at least a week, the are episode just reading about it before we even dive into making it to our interview on the phone. Yeah. And then scheduling us. You know what is she Alexandra pros? The stories are different in has a great perspective with the guests that actually knew the victims or murderers. Yes cons most of these stories are taking too long to tell I keep yelling in the car. Get to the point already. I don't wanna hear your long opinions. One woman takes too many breaks between words. We know that just being Zaidi that would be me Alexis. I think the group needs to work on storytelling a bit because the story lines are broken apart too much of the pinions. I really wanna keep listening to the podcast. So that's why I'm providing feedback it has too much so much potential. But I think at a later date, okay? I have to say, I appreciate the feedback appreciate the feedback. However, our podcast is like a mix of storytelling mix of opinions mixed with banter mixed with, like a little bit of like Billy's experience and like my experience and my non experience. What you experience life in the weirdness that it is. But here's the thing, there are different types of pot. If you'd like to not as hot too. That is a scripted one. You can listen to scale you can listen to true crime garage. You can listen to case file. There are a lot of other podcasts that if you want the story or like a Wikipedia entry. That's those are. That's not our podcast. Right. That is not our podcast. You didn't even know what the story was until ten minutes ago. I did not know until ten minutes ago. So yes, relax. Rely on Billy for his opinion because he doesn't really know or doing, but he's an expert. Yes. And we're going to be like, hey, here's the crime. You're like. I know there's also this other Kremlin nineteen sixties is studied, religious studies, and I have a reference that way too. And paul. That's is that what? I'm principle other way. I solve a murder in Paul's and theology. And that. And that. Article once and I really, really the article and I like the impart for those of you who say we make fun of Billy, I've never seen Billy happier than when he's with a Philly thrives in this environment. And he knows what he's on. Bart four go. I'm no one. Even hold has got to his head to come back every week. I love getting trashed ice him down a peg in needs. It turns on. You're saying was up right now. So if you're into it anyways, should we get into work as like this? I think so. But it will say woman in not in the comment in the battery view. Yes. Breathes weird. I mean if you listen you've already heard me breathing is to stay alive. And if you're not on board then you want me to die, then you're. And I can't have that. But I really appreciate your criticism. Listen, Alexis can't die because the podcast would die with her. That is true seriously. If Alexis dawn. Building that if Alexis. Yeah, we probably would have a good podcast. We would not about crying. Would be about crime. We would just be making out the entire. Alexis league letter shouldn't be stopped, but could be what then you just haven't make out Jacksonville. That's a real ASA Marsha. So if that's what you guys rumbled for somebody coming. Honestly, would that not be the best ending to the first degree pot? If you tied and billion. I talked about it. T-shirt Alexis linkletter must be SOPs already happening. But, like ding Dong Alexis glitter. Glitters dead is a little morbid for me kind of like it, though. But nobody do it, please. Nobody do that. And we yes. I do not want to put the last chapter of my book being that. No. Then you'd have to solve my murder and. It could be a whole new book, by the way, chase doctors with me as out right now at Audubon dot com or Amazon, so yeah. Yeah. And that's when it comes out and print maybe by then, because MU Giacobbi shot in the buck. Do have a shadow on the book about it. But let's just get started. You've seen the shadow you haven't see the shadow now you told me about it. I told you I told you about the shot up, but you haven't seen it. What does that? It's good. Why don't you say tell everybody it's so she's she's. Power. Here's what I say. I say. To Alexis linkletter for helping me sore. In for Jack Vanik for keeping me grounded tie. It knocks him off that high horse. I'm like, you're not cool. Nobody cares. Exactly. So a lot of people care. But I like to pretend that nobody does. We let you belly. We're happy for you and everybody you'd better by book. Yes. I don't know if it's good yet because I haven't read it. But I'm dude can write though, so. All right. Let's for real against started. So today's case sorry Alexandra for ten minutes of the beginning. Yeah. Sorry for the battery said you didn't want. But this is who we are. This is awesome on. Right. And if not, there's like a million other like we love, please. Listen, but if you named three I just want you to be happy, if you're not into it, I want you to be happy, exactly. I do. So this case to day takes us to Dallas Fort Worth area, and it's the day after thanksgiving November twenty eighth twenty fourteen which is known in the retail world as to lack on Friday, the worst day, the air or the best, depending, if you're a thrifty shopper, so you guys today's first degree connection is Sarah, and she is going to tell us how her experience relating to our case today. Kind of unfolded from her perspective. I started working at American Eagle in October of twenty fourteen. I'm when I thirty going to graduate school. And I was looking for a job to kind of have to make some extra money on the side, and I was actually going to graduate school for forensic genetics on renting scientists and that actually shortly into working there. He was one of demand. And so she was one of the people that trained me all my managers were so nice. I remember actually being extremely kind and helpful and funny feed on could be with serious when she had to be because she was a manager. But he was definitely a fun person to be around. I remember our laugh to just definitely a funny funny person, and I really enjoyed learning from her and being able to work with her. So the fire department is called on the morning of November twenty eighth. Two thousand fourteen there summoned to a Fort Worth apartment complex at the forty seven hundred bucks Kenwright king ranch, and the person on the call. So they believed the apartment above his was on fire because his carbon monoxide detector was going nuts. The water was leaking from the ceiling and dripping into his apartment. But when the firefighters arrived, they find a small fire, and they're expected to find something, you know, they're, they're firefighters they're expecting to, to, to put out a fire, but what they find in the bedroom that apartment is the body of thirty one year old Ashley Harris. So I didn't hear anything until I believe it was done day, and I got up phone call from human resources. And so I answered the phone them Sunday. I remember because I was doing homework for school, and they got a phone call. And they said, we just wanted this is American Eagle human resources. And we just wanna let you know, that your manager actually heritz passed away this, he then and they may specify today, and I said, what happened, you know what could possibly happen? I just saw her, you know, a couple of days ago, and they just said that there was a fire in her apartment. That's all these holding. And so I don't know because I was going to graduate school for friends or what? But just something in my head that, that the there had to be some more to this story. And Sara's instincts were right. Because what be fire department and firefighters discovered when they entered ashes apartment and found her it was anything but a normal house fire casualty situation. Her feet and hands have been bound with duct tape our bodies face down on the floor at the foot of the bench. She has obvious trauma to her face her her head her neck or throat. Her body is partially burned, along with civil areas of the bedroom are burned, including her mattress, and there was also an empty bottle of rubbing alcohol, that was found near her body, and the firefighter said that it appeared that the fire was started using exceleron. And they figured out, you know, that this is probably somebody that was trying to start a fire for a murder scene, and we need to bring in the homicide. Detectives, right. So. Pilar Ramirez, who has a Fort Worth police crime scene investigator was one of the first arrive on the scene at around nine AM him and the other officers were trying to wrap their heads around what they were dealing with there was this fire on top of this gruesome scene of murder. It was a whole lot to take in at once and one of actually's neighbors till the police that he had heard a thump in screaming from the apartment of few hours earlier. And when the apartment was examined closely the identified what appeared to be bloodstains on the floor bed, Rilling and the door. They took swabs of all the stands, and they packed them to be sent to the crime lab for analysis. And I just want to make a little. No, it's very interesting. Like you have an apartment, she lived in department companies like you hear noises. And you don't think anything of that screens. Billy yelling sometimes. And it's interesting when you put things into perspective when something actually happens. And so I just really did a quick Google search and it was immediately on the news. It was already they're already knew stories about the fire and how he had been found and that it was being investigated as a homicide. And I kind of thought that it was a bit a third that they didn't tell me wouldn't come e you know, that there was an investigation pending regarding how she died. And, you know, they said grief counseling, available eight and everything. But I just feel like that. What seemed a bit a little more youthful Hemi had they, given you the full story over the phone, but I was a bet that said they didn't tell me that. And so I found out really from Google, and then when I finally got to work, whenever I went to work nuts, you know, talking with my other managers and, and thing they were saying what they had. Her. It was definitely unsettling to hear that, you know, my safety at work could have been compromised, but I really found out all of it from the internet from news articles. And I think that was even more unsettling to me event that, that that information wasn't really given to us in an official kind of way. I just got my hair dyed, and I would be dreading that time in a couple of weeks when my hair would start feeding and looking really dole, but I don't have to think to one of our sponsors living proof, which we freakin love the scientists living proof had found a way to make hair color last twice as long and look and feel healthier at the same time. It's called color care from living proof. And I freaking love it. So caller care is an innovative, three products system that starts with the shampoo and conditioner. They form an invisible shield that protects your color from washing out, and plus like all living proof products. They make your hair, look and feel healthier which protects your color from bathing. And when your color, eventually does start to fade simply use living proof super, cool color care, whipped glazes. They come in two different shades one for highlights and blondes one for darker shades, and redhead. So there's one for everybody and these awesome glazes have temporary dies. It make your hair color. Not only lasts longer, but. Also make your hair richer, and more vibrant. So if you want to try them out, go to living proof dot com slash I and use promo code I to get a free sample of their ward winning dry shampoo with your purchase, again, that's living proof dot com slash I and use promo code I. The investigators observed what turned out to be Ashley's wallets on the bathroom counter, and strangely. It had two five dollar bills inside which immediately suggested to them that they're not dealing with a robbery here, because with such an overt obvious display of money, you'd think it was a criminal would just willy nilly take it. So. If robbery wasn't the motive here for this horrific crime than what was it? And. You know, they were investigating and trying to figure out what that was and meanwhile, the medical examiner's were able to come and tentatively identify Ashley Harris by her tattoos. So they were able to then determine that she had suffered blunt force trauma to her face and head, and trauma related to strangulation on her neck and throat, which likely was the cause of her death. And her throat was also slit, which is terrible, so immediately the detectives wanted to speak with everyone and Ashley's life because that's how they begin their investigations. They start close. They work their way outward. So obviously that included, I or family that our friends neighbours co workers, so on so forth. So it's at this point that they learned that Ashley was actually in an assistant manager at the American Eagle outfitters store at the Hulan mall, which was less than ten minutes from her apartment. So they start analyzing the scene the police, and they noticed that there's no forced entry. So that's the first or no forced entry. Ashley's next door neighbor and friend named Alexis Torres. She tells the police that Ashley often left her apartment or unlocked when friends were going to tend to her golden retriever named now. And Ashley also plan to work late on thanksgiving night, because black Friday Sam, the, the black Friday sale actually started on Thursday, because that's what we keep doing me. Keep moving the black Friday sale up and up Wednesday. And then then it's gonna happen in August or whatever. So Alexis had actually agreed to check on Ashley's dog for her. And she said, quote, I would kind of Catholic is that the door was unlocked by using my keys and pretended to unlock and lock her door. So she would kind of when she was going into the door she would like pretend that she was unlocking the door, and then open it. And then when she would close it to pretend that she was locked that, if anybody else exacting see it. Right. And she said she had planned to take breakfast to Ashley Friday morning, after a long work night, and was surprised when she didn't respond to her text message. Alexis decided to go to Ashley's apartment anyway, because they were good enough friends for that kind of thing. So they were just like all right. I'm just going to check respond, but I'm still going that fast which I would do to your job. Right. Thank you. So this explain why there was no four century, because the door was open. She's attackers were likely inside waiting for her when she got there or they snuck in and the ambassador when she got there. Right. So the police spoke to the neighbors who lived on either side and below Ashley when they questioned further the original neighbor, who called nine one one told the investigators that as far as the fire alarm, and Ashley's apartment was going off. He looked outside his window, and he saw lack two-door and windy g thirty five which fun fact is car. I had in high school really. But it's silver will unit Mercedes and we lived together like in two thousand eight how'd Infinity, g twenty and g thirty five in high school. I like in a rap song. Cool. All right. We're older. So there was this black Tudor INFINITI g thirty five leaving from the parking spot in front of Ashley's apartment with its lights off. He says it's car that he'd never seen before. So obviously, hate took note of that being there. The police then moved onto speaking with Ashley's team at American Eagle. The cops wanted to speak with them all of them to dig up info on who may have wanted to hurt her. But they also had to notify them that Ashley's keys had been stolen. This is important because Ashley had not only the keys to the store, but also the keys to the stores safe on her keychain, and it was the only thing that was saying, so glaring piece of evidence, right and the higher ups at American Eagle decided to change all the locks on at the store, and of course, of course, the attention is on the loss of their employees. But it just it seems like commonsense. If the only thing that's lost in stolen from this apartment during this homicide is the keys. What kind of weird malice shit are are we dealing with here? So. The police go to speak with the co workers, and with the higher ups, and all of that, in our kind of dealing with us in a learn from Ashley's co workers that Ashley had worked the night before, from five thirty pm November twenty seven to about three twelve AM the twenty eighth in preparation for the stores. Black Friday sales. We opened at six on thanksgiving evening. And so I work from six PM on thanksgiving into the night, so-, I working until I was supposed to work until three AM and Ashley was working that night as well. I think everybody has to work we needed kind of all hands on deck. And everyone was working and Ashley was the manager wants it people started to kind of Peter out in the middle of the night, and she actually let me leave early at two instead of three. So I believe that one that's all happened. She ended up giving after three thirty she got home at three twenty five AM and met with a friend who left her apartment around four forty a m this means that Ashley had been murdered sometime between four forty AM and seven thirty A M when the carbon monoxide detectors. Had gone off and her dancers neighbor's apartment and the water started coming through the ceiling. And that's again, where the when the, the firefighters came when after that call was made so word of what happens. What had happened to Ashley spread fifty of her friends more than fifty or friends, actually gathered outside of apartment. They have a vigil. They have a balloon release. They all cry the talk about Ashley. She was described as a friendly positive person. Love by many never talked elev-. Anybody? Her friend Christopher told the media that they all want to keep memory alive. She said, I think we should honor her and make sure the world knows what a great person she is. I just don't want what happened to her to go away, and they decorated the steps leading up to her apartment. They wrote messages on it on balloons and left flowers. Definitely in a lot of stock at birth. It was he with been nicest person. He you know, caring and funny, and I feel like I got a lot from my experiences being around her even though it would I such short on time, only about two months. And, you know, I feel like see had probably so much more to give to the world. And you know, she was only ever trying to do the right thing. But it was definitely it kind of was like a punch in the gut. It was a bit of a punch in the gut more than anything else. So the police are combing through every facet of Ashley's life. They're starting close and working their way outwards, like Lexus was saying before it didn't appear that Ashley had any enemies at all from the beginning. Everyone was talking about how wonderful she was and how good of a friend she was. And the police did learn something that caught their attention. When they were interviewing more of her co workers at American Eagle so on August twenty fourth three months prior to her death, the American Eagle that she was working at was burglarized. Ashley was the one that reported that one of the stores assistant managers as well as one of the stores employees we're could have been suspects in this burglary. The assistant manager was named Carter Savannah's surveying TASR. She was twenty seven years old. And the other employees was her boyfriend, Clarence David Mallory, and he went by David, and that's how we're going to refer to him in the story. Exactly. So apparently one night while Carter, we're gonna call them Carter and David from now harder. Full names. So one night while Carter was working enclosing the store of loan. She was seen on surveillance footage leaving whether it's intentional or accidentally leaving the back door of the store, unlocked in after the store closed a male in a hoodie is seen entering the store and going directly to the safe and unlocking it more than eighteen thousand dollars was stolen that night and this town occurred the night after a huge back to school sale that the store was having an in that case, the police suspected David used David Mallory, used it a safe key that Carter had stolen from another assistant manager while at work. And after the robbery, David who was an employee. He failed her. He never went back to work. He he missed the next three shifts and was fired. Which is the most obvious thing. You know, of course, you got that money not going back to work. Exactly, exactly. And so he never reported back to work. And of course, Ashleigh, who was another assistant manager there reported to the higher apps that she suspected that Carter in Clarence. They suspected that Carter and David were responsible and what's interesting is that actually really wanted to work for the stores loss prevention unit, like on a executives would have higher up level. And that's what she was working towards in. This is obviously the division that tries to stop theft, particularly internal theft. So she spent a lot of time reviewing this security video footage. And she's essentially the one that made the conclusion that David and Carter or the ones behind the theft. Ashley was killed. They had been killed in a terrible way. She was found in gagged and, and that they had that fire her apartment, one of my managers said that she had a feeling that she knew who killed her. And not it was probably the people that had previously stolen money from the store. Whispering wood basically that, you know, they had done money over the summer. I mean, I think it was eighteen thousand dollars. And I mean, not, not tempt chain, that's definitely still a significant amount of money, and that, they, I guess, were caught, and we're fired, and they weren't happy about that. But I had heard that learn David whatever his name is he, I think had lied to get a job at a different American Eagle after he was fired 'cause they were banned from being hired again. And I heard that he may have like his social security number or something to get hired at a different door after the fact. So I don't know the full details on that. But one of my managers said that she knew that he had done some shady stuff to try to get back in. So Carter suspended and she's later fired. And after the internal investigation into the theft at the stores. So she admits to these stores manager, that she had possibly left the back door unlocked, quote, she responded that she did not see what the big deal was. Because the law should be covered by insurance. Yeah. All right. So neither was charged nor arrested in the burglary, which is. You know that's one of the things that you see in retail stores. Okay. You know, we just want to be rid of it, but we don't get the authorities involved in it. And when you don't get the authorities involved in at something bad could happen. And this is what happens right here. One of the things where she's right? We're insurance didn't cover it. Yeah. You don't steal stuff. They couldn't think of their heads are like we can't prove it. It's a hoodie. It could have been anonymous honest mistake, leaving the door open. So they're like, whatever we're gonna fire. It's it's eighteen grand were pissed, but like might not have been worth the headache of, of pursuing more. And by the way, eighteen grand is a lot in the in the cough, for in cash in two thousand fourteen when so many people are using credit cards is pretty impressive for an American Eagle store, American Eagle jeans. I like them. Yeah. They stretch really likes to look at the three sixty stretch. They're awesome entries. Yeah. So how much we had American Eagle sponsoring this episode. Yeah. Exactly. We should have that. But there's they're not as a millionaires. Okay. So as the police were learning about all this, they wanted if this work situation, could possibly have anything to do with this brutal murder. And they weren't really sure because it seems like it would be. A pretty extreme escalation, yeah. To go from this theft to murder and but there was one detail about Carter, the author attention. They learned that Carter. Drove what a two door to door black and INFINITI g thirty five tight car, and they could find pictures of it on her Instagram because of course she posted up a her car. I just tell me. Oh, we'll still don't don't kill anybody. I mean don't kill right? Post pictures of your car and Instagram. Just kill anybody. Yeah. The only time you're allowed to post pictures of your car. If you drive a Maserati or above, unlike a like an Infinity. It's like okay, it's fine. I mean cool guys are really not getting the point here where it's don't kill by anybody. And then it's the idea of dose, whatever you want, but you don't like hell anybody? Because the police will. Use your Instagram to find you. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. Okay. So anyway, so the police were now curious enough, about Carter, and David to really look into them. They learn the David was only twenty one years old in Carter was twenty seven being a cougar. They ran the place on Carter's Infinity to get an address for the payer who lived together, and they started to conduct surveillance on the couple's apartment, two days after Ashley's murder, the police watch their apartment and saw them come home at around. Seven forty five in the morning, Carter and David then got into the block Infinity and drove to hole in mall where the American Eagle store where they used to work was located David dropped Carter off the malls, south entrance, and then drove around the parking lot and part away from the entrance Carter then entered the mall. That's when officers approached David in the parking lot in question why he was at the mall so early because they were there at around eighty m when the stores generally opened around ten and there's no reason for them to be there that early right in there. There's. Following them there under surveillance to these odd circumstances. So they already sort of. No. I mean, it's I think part of them wanted to not believe, like they couldn't possibly conducted a horrible murder over robbing American Eagle like maybe that's what we're dealing with. Yeah. So when David responded to the officers, he told them that he was waiting for his girlfriend who worked at Arup, stall store, inside that mall, which, of course, is not true. They ask David for his driver's license. He didn't have one on him. So the police can seize opportunities as an excuse to take him in, in arrest him for not having a driver's license. We're normally if you're normal person who's not committing a crime. I've been let go for that. So they generally will if you don't seem like a degenerate, which is really nice. So when they brought him in curiously he was wearing a buck ski-mask pushed up on his head. She is come on. They suspected that David was involved. So the police obtained a search warrant, and in the car, they found ski masks, a nine millimeter handgun a single walkie talkie individual guide to lock picking in the vehicle. Out of the movie visual guy to pick. Right. So police searched the mall but they couldn't find Carter later though. They did find Carter at their shared apartment David Clarke shared apartment, and officers said, they think that she walked home after going to the mall. She agreed to be taken to the homicide office for questioning meanwhile, though, the police also pull the surveillance from the mall to see what Carter was doing while she was there and in the footage, they could see that she was trying to enter the American Eagle store with a set of keys, presumably, these keys, you know. Our Ashley's, but who knows. But this was early enough. It was seven forty five. It was before any of his story, employs would have arrived, and as you know, American Eagle changed keys. So the keys did not in fact, work work, and this avalance, then showed her walking from the mall in the direction towards home, and in the ineffective, she's confused because David's gone, and he was supposed to be waiting outside. Yeah. Looking around where he went exactly. And she's like in her jammies, the whole thing's really weird. So another thing, though, is that she is worked at the store for a long time. This was right after a black Friday sale. She would have known that there would have been a huge amount of cash in a safe at this time. Yeah. So I'm black Friday and thanksgiving. The crowds are insane people just want to come in for the best field, and, you know, everybody wants to go shopping. And so we had, we would have ended up with a lot of cast in the face. And I'm sure that, since they had worked there previously. They knew that there was going to be a pretty happy amount of cash in the safe from all the styles that we were gonna make those two days. 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But the police learned there was somewhere between forty thousand fifty thousand dollars in the store. Safe again, that's still boggles my mind in two thousand fourteen at that many people are using cash, I now whereas are, you know, at east coast, I feel like this long. It's not used because people use cash though, I love using love cow, Alexis uses too much as love cash. Always using cat. I, I do. Honestly, I love cash, too, but that's weird. Can you can't get your tax cuts on it? Well again points and then you I I just like she can't be traced, though, pecans faster, but I just love cash and then easier. I don't anyways. All right. So there's forty thousand fifty thousand dollars in cash in the store safe, and it's becoming clear that Carter she had worked for American Eagle for a bunch of years. And she would have been familiar with the amount of sales like anybody would be, you know, obviously the biggest sales would have been black Friday, the whole reason why it's called black Friday is because that you get into the black you were in the red. And then in the store was in the red which means that they were they were showing a loss. Black Friday is they get into the black would talk about your. Yeah. Do you think it was Gina really care about it? I thought it was like about the black parade, we didn't because we don't have a right. I wish it was. No. I honestly have never thought about it before or. I'm jealous of your knowledge, but also not because me. Seem right. Look at it, look it up. Okay. All right. So while the police question each of them. It seemed that Carter and David their, their stories were not matching up and remember that the police had been conducting surveillance on them for days. So they had all this footage of them. And it was all contradicting all the stories that they were telling them so they were obviously lying right? Carter denied being at the mall that morning and denied trying to enter the store even though when you look at this Valance tapes, they are fire. He's trying to get into this cry. No. All right. Well before I start my little thing Billy was right. So surprise, surprise. So another thing that the investigators covered was that surveillance for surveillance footage of Carter at Home Depot buying two shovels, a rope bungee cords a pair of gloves in a tarp on number twenty first two thousand fourteen which was a week before Ashley is founding to not, not good like you. I mean, we see this, how many times have we done? We pro this look the fourth or fifth time that we've had this. And then the things on the trunk, we'll just we'll guide of how to lock pick a car like disorder should on Amazon. Just as bad. Exists. But if you're might as well as all I'm saying they're that bad at it like have it delivered to your home. Then I don't know. Our new sponsor of, you know, you, you borrow the stuff I think, is what you do from. I don't know you by somebody else by it for you. I don't know what we're helping people commit crime. No. I sent you to do less. Goes back to how dumb are you that you're going to, like, okay anyways, so the Browns bullshit on our on Amazon? We wish it was on. So everything's obviously looking really bad for them. Everybody was floored that it seemed like they actually were plotting this murder and the whole thing seemed to be motivated motivated by money and the seem super horrific but it gets worse. So it turns out the both Carter and Davis. David previously worked at a different American Eagle at a store nearby in Abilene, Texas. This is actually the store they had met, and they had started dating. So David ended up being fired from that store as well after missing three straight shifts without contests, his or mandates his that we've talked about dumb and move on and after he was fired. He was transferred to the whole in mall store. We're actually had worked and that's where everything had taken. Place. So Carter had secretly hired David. She switched his first name with his middle name, and then also switched the two digit two digits of his social security. Number said he could be hired at the store without people realizing it was the dude who had been fired from the sister store weeks earlier. Right. And I wanted this I wanted to make that super clear. So Carter was the manager of Albanian store when she got transferred to the whole in store. She wanted her boyfriend come with her. So he had been fired because he didn't show up. So she is the one who manipulated. All these numbers. Right. And dark ship. But anyways, so that's when they became a couple, but another side note is that it's also do you really need to work with your boyfriend, like dude, also, it's against policy to do so, so I don't actually know why she switched from that album store to the whole in store. But I think it had something to do with it, and they were having a lot of tolerance for her bullshit. And like decided to just transfer her instead of firing her. Yeah. And yes, she come over in that, like over. Listen, I don't want to work with my boyfriend, but I'm going to hire him, enter different name, even though he's been fired dude, it was only unless it was like weeks later that this large robbery occurred that Ashley noticed in turn them in for. So anyways, the investigation is continuing. The text messages are coming to light and coming to the surface and the police are pulling all them and seeing what the hell these people are saying to each other. So it turns out that the second plot involved, these two planning to rob the Alba lean store that they both formerly worked at. So their phone traffic show that they were sticking out the store less than two weeks before Ashley was slain. And while they were there, they exchanged incriminating text messages. And they were able to prove this with, you know, GPS and all that shit improving where these text messages, were sent and received. So in their text messages on ten forty five pm on one day, David wrote to Carter, there's no way this place doesn't have a back door. Carter responded, I haven't seen the little blank manager. Come to the back, yet blank means expletive, you know, and these are obviously pulled from the court documents I don't know. So maybe I just missed him. I found their back door. It comes out really close to the only place with cameras. And then shortly before I guess, six PM next day, Carter told David that she'd found the backdoor, blah blah blah they were basically plotting to figure out how to rob this store and leader when she was in custody Carter told the police that she believed David was having a sexual relationship with another assistant manager at this all Boolean location, which prompted her to take pictures of these isn't managers car, and there were text proving that you plan to slash your tires retaliate towards this person. And they were essentially likely plotting to do to this manager, what they ended up doing to Ashley, which is she's insane. Yeah. I mean, the chances are like one in a million kind of people find each other. But we hear about it all the time out killer couples and I think it may be there with the manipulation there, maybe one of them convinced the other. But I feel like they go through with something this. This dark you have to you have to be kind of almost there already by yourself. You have to have that hatred and that willingness. And maybe that other person just kind of give you the extra push you need. But I definitely think that they both you know, probably would have done something like this on their own. Sorta super v they'd had enough. They got enough to make an arrest David's taken into custody at his at a private residence and Morello by the Marshall service. Without incident he's booked into Potter County jail transported to Fort Worth police homicide unit to be interviewed by detectives the police also suspect that Carter and David to be great flight risk, because they didn't have any ties to Fort Worth, but to actually Morello in Lubbock. So the Texas Department of motor vehicles record show that at least one vehicle each and Malary's and savannahs names, Qatar dated to Texas Department motive eagles. Texas Department of motivations records show that at least one vehicle in each of Carter. David's names are registered at addresses in Amarillo on December six. Carter and David cars are Carter Carter and gave it or the names. No, no, but Carter was. It has dollar on December six Carter is taken into custody by Tarrant county deputies and transported to the forth worth jail. So here's what police theorized, what happened. They believe that Carter and David the essentially stocked Ashley Harris. And they. Zeroed in on a time a window of time when they thought that you would be most most vulnerable, which was around the time of the black Friday. Rush. And then they either break into Ashley's apartment, and they head or they waited for her to get home. And then the ambushed her while she was sort of, you know, open the door or maybe they walked him when when she was asleep. Then they kill her. They take your keys and they're gonna take those keys and take them to the mercantile store and then robbed the store with a safe and as they're planning this murder slash robbery. There also plotting to do something similar to at the Abilene store. Some David and Carter are charged with capital murder. But for whatever reason the prosecutors decided not to seek the death penalty against either of them. The prosecutor was appalled over the heinousness of the crime and was quoted saying, there are no good murders. But at least there are some that you can understand this was different at a minimum. This took at least a month of planning. They stocked. Ashley Harris like people stock a deer. I'm pretty sure that they stay broke in whether they had to actually visibly again or not because the door was open. I'm not sure. But I read that there was her friend Hudd gone over there with, like home with her. I guess, and that they went inside after the friends had left her friend has said to the police that she left around whatever time and they went in after that. But I think that might be the maybe that kind of what the docking like they stop a deer, quote, from that detective is in reference to that they really just they waited in the parking lot until she was alone. They want her apartment until her friend left, so they knew she was alone and not when they went in. And unsurprisingly as trouser approach the two of them started pointing fingers at each other when Carter got onto the standards to testify, she claimed that she was terrified of her co-defendant in live in boyfriend and claimed, but he was that she was raped when she did not do what he wanted. I mean, that was truly the most thing I think I've ever seen in my life. I. Like, yeah. It's the easiest defense is to blame the other person when there's more than one sucked back then there's more than one person, you know, being tried for calm. The easiest thing to point fingers at the other one. And, you know, I think that the you know. Little little girl crying courtroom. She thought that you'd get pity. And there's, there's no pity for the hat, when they're this is something that just oh group. Then. Yeah. So this is a new you see this kind of a lot. You either see these people turning on each other. You see them standing United, but this is particularly interesting. So she immediately starts to just point the finger at him that he was the aggressor that it was all his fault. And it was kind of a the prosecutors really believed that she was a mastermind. So this is kind of the stance her defense took. So this is her version of events. So I'm not gonna say it allegedly her version until I'm done. This is her version of events until we're done and we say, otherwise so. Carter said that she cooked when she was walking through the events of those couple of days, she said on thanksgiving, she cooked traditional thanksgiving dinner and David that day got drunk, then they watched movies smoked weed. And then she got sick. It was so daylight at that time, and then she claimed to know nothing of the slang, she was asleep the entire time in the apartment that she shared with David, and then she said at laid down. And when I woke up, it was dark and David was there are both hands on the clock where points at five and went to bed and went to sleep, then I was woken up by David, and he said, I needed to get ready to go to Klay burn, and he wanted me to pack, so then they went to clayborn, which is a neighboring town. They rented a motel room and this is November twenty eighth. But later that day David header drive to the hull and mall while he toyed with a nine millimeter, Glock, handgun that he held in his lap. So he was in the car with her during this drive. She said that he then put the gun, interface and try to make her steal money from the store David threaten her. Her parents and relatives if she did not do what she was told. So at this point, you know, when she didn't do what she was told they returned to their apartment where she claims David's friends, Rachel repeatedly. She claimed that the first time David pointed the gun at her, she flinched he laughed. He asked if I thought he would shoot me. I said, no, he said, you don't know me, but I know you many call that her grandmother's name and address her brother's address in the address for parents. He forced shotgun point to recount the day's events almost testing her like are the police if the police question you, you know what are you? What's your story like just testing her? But she didn't really know what happened. He then said, there are people who are meaner than me following you. In claim just her boyfriend threaten her throughout this entire process. Every car comes with share of stories. Maybe you have a ding in your bumper when you nervously picked up a first date, maybe got a luxury package after a big promotion. I dumped a lot of fro yo over my car today. So that's it's current story. But while you can't put a price tag on your stories now with truecar you can at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell or trade in just go to truecar simply enter your license plate, number, and watch, how your car's details pop right up, then you answer a few questions, like if there's navigation or moon roof watches, they bump up your value. If you have high mileage, you already knew that was going to cost you. But now you know how much it's dings your wallets? You can plant a head once you're finished. You can get a true cash offer sent in minutes, which you can take to a local certified dealer to cash out or trade in. So when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car, check out truecar today and truecar offer is not available in all areas. Karner said that they went back to the human mall and David gave her what looked like the keys to American Eagle and said, change your clothes, and then she said, I'm not going into the mall, and he said, you don't understand this is a quote this from her, which is saying that he, he told her you understand, there's someone sitting outside your parents house, and if you don't go, I'm going to kill them, and I'm going to kill you. So he keeps threatening are over and over and over again. And he made her repeat the events of the day to, I guess, to get the story straight. And while she was talking, he seemed David seem calm, but when she paused, he would pick up the Glock, and then pointed to her again and say, you know, get the story straight. So they left the human mall. And after a while David headquartered drive to WalMart. And he said on the way to WalMart. He told me is what she said on the way to WalMart. He told me I need to get some dark sweats and some shoes that I could run it. Then he brought her to the mall to do the robbery before saying, yet you better come out alone or I'll kill everyone you love. So, of course, the prosecution is asking her. Why didn't you just run away if you're so scared and Carter's excuse is that she believed the that, that he was going to harm her family? Right. The store was crowded. She was seeing people everywhere that look threatening. So even if she had gone in the locks would have been changed and her key did not work. So when she returned to the car. She comes David Tucker back to their apartment and someone pushed her down the floor as she walked in she heard voices. She didn't recognize saying, I'll make her follow directions. I've already dug your grave and then someone took off her sweatpants, and raped her after the first raped she tried to crawl away, but before she could she was raped again, three more times before someone pulled her into the kitchen and told her to cover herself. She claimed the door opened and closed a couple of times, but she did not look up to see who are assailants were next morning. David Astor if she had a good night. Then David said you're going to go back and do it again. And then she said, I heard people talking who said they haven't dropped it yet. We're going to take her back and make her do it again. Again, this is her side of the offensive side. We're not saying this is true or not. Yeah. We're just saying what each side is saying. So the prosecutors, they had more text evidence of one texts that David sent to Carter. Were two sets of coordinates that led police to the shallow hole on a ranch in loaders. Which is this is about thirty five miles away from north Abilene, and the Fort Worth worth police detective who investigated the case. He said that he thought the, the whole was actually meant to be a grave for Ashley. I think that's the hardest thing at my head around is that they, they didn't just want from her. You know, if you need to, you know, they followed her they easily could have mug, her beat her up on her keys with my son, and, you know, maybe they wouldn't. I mean they probably don't have gotten caught. But maybe they wouldn't have gotten caught that way. But it how why did they find it? So necessary to actually tell her and from reading I read that there was they had dug a grave miles away. Like maybe they thought it was going to be easier to get her body out do that shallow grave that they dug and navy at the last minute. They decided that they were just going to set fire department, that shows some real funding, like they really truly must have hated her to have to, to want to go to that extent and. And you know, it's easy to steal money. But I think this was about much more than that. I think they were they were really just out to get bre vengeance for being fired, and they weren't even erected for that they didn't have it on their record. It didn't go anywhere. So they weren't in jail. They weren't really in any sort of trouble as I can getting fired from American Eagle. Carter and her defense team. They said there was another narrative for that. She said that the whole. That David had Doug for corridor. She should she refuse to cooperate. So what, what they were saying was that this is where I'm going to bury you, if you don't do what I'm telling you, which is interesting. I mean, I believe Carter's involved, but I'm just I always plays apples yet. Yeah. So remember, Carter said David had said, I've already dug your grave, whether this was all concocted in the in the defense room or whether this is real, you don't know. But it's interesting, you know, and she said, I was scared I was to read to talk, David apparently said, you're so stupid. You don't even know what I was planning. I texted you a picture of where I was going to bury you look at your phone, and apparently, there were actually was not only the coordinates, but also a picture of the grave on Carcassonne Jesus. But these I mean what I don't know is if these I mean he. This is a tricky like he texted, her look at your phone and kill you that. That's why you know, whenever we talking about something sketchy in my life. Everyone's like just call. Don't email? Leave a texting at all. No. That that's just call. It just call. Because you don't know inflection. You don't know. You don't know sarcasm. No, no. Not about that. No record. Oh, that's where you're going? Yeah, bugging your phone, but it's not they're not. But the thing is like there's unless you're on FBI like unless you're calling being recorded callings always the move mostly because he'd be like, hey, between me and you this, this is just for harmless, workshop, they're always, like, hey, just just call though because like then there's not like a track record your ass, covered. Yeah. But anyways. The prosecutor in this case, urged the jury not to buy into what Carter's defense, and what Carter was saying survey essentially believe that Carter was the not only involved but the mastermind entire plot. And they stated that Carter. Had a lot of lives for member and jurors had this important, but not terribly difficult decision to make in not. They need to know when they're being lied to and for quotes, for a person who is capable of beating someone to death, strangling them in their own home lying is not a big deal. And I'm not letting David off the hook. But imagine the horror someone is probably sitting on you wall. Someone else's taping up your hands, and then your ankles, they slash your throat. And then when you're finally dead. They set your place on fire. There are a lot of people at her apartment complex, which says a lot about the fence in this case. So he's saying, like, not only was it against her. They set it on fire. They were willing to sacrifice anyone in this building four dot goes beyond their selfishness, and he said, I will prosecute David. And obviously, this is that Carter's trial. I will prosecute David but he's not the first man to be manipulated by an older woman. And there's something to that. And I think eventually, I mean I don't think but eventually Carter was found guilty of her involvement. And she was sentenced to life in prison without parole, and may twenty sixteen. They had it all planned out there planners, you know, they, they had been whole, that's an murder for athletes planned out, for like I'm not. And though they knew what they were doing there was time or if one of them wanted out there were times to get out, there was times to get help and neither of them did any of that. They planned it the original security cameras. Be Dan's day. She had it all planned. She left the back door open. She stole the keys from somebody else, and they, they had it all planned out. They knew exactly what they were doing. And that was the case again with the black Friday murder. They knew what they were doing. They planned out carefully. They obviously didn't think of that anything they didn't think about the fact that he would be found so quickly and that they would. Notice that her kids were stolen. And so they, they clearly didn't think of everything, but they still hope the time plan the fall out, and that is just me a Mark of somebody who's manipulative and, and Cynthia Pathak, and I don't care about the effect. They have on anyone else. I do think that they're manipulative individuals that know how to work people. So David was also found guilty along with Carter and he was auto modestly sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. So he was twenty two and she was twenty eight they are never single lives. Done don't like how fall, she's his cries Ashley's family spoke to the media. And they said that our personal preference would have been that they both would have been executed would be executed, but the state made the decision to not pursue the death penalty. The overall lack of criminal history and Malary's age at the time the crime was committed contributed to that decision. I'm sure. So I was surprised though that it was a capital case where they did not seek the death penalty. I'm so I had to kind of look into why that was I am some of my professor that they had experience with cases like that. Because my professor had, you know, been are given and worked in the forensic community in Charles, and stuff, so acting, none of that was something that they had ever heard of to try to grasp that month that for myself and. Given the, the violence and the gruesome net of this crime. I really think that they should have gone for the death penalty. I am personally. I'm very back and forth on the death penalty. I learned a lot about both sides of the issue in some criminology classes that I took in college, and still, I really am never definitive on it. But in this case, I just feel like they, they were so sure that they caught the right people, and they treated her so horribly that I just feel like they don't deserve to live. And I think those interesting, I wanted to make sure about this out because I had a teacher, that even though I'm unindicted I had a teacher that said something in college that has really always stuck with me. And I think applies to the and she said. That I seen too much to be against the death penalty. And I think that's really kind of home in this case, because, you know, if I just reading about what they did to her is. Just so gut wrenching. I really couldn't believe that something like this happened to somebody that I know but absolutely solidified my desire to work in the friend appeal just having something like that, so close. I just knew that this is where I wanted to be what I wanted to do. I wanted to help you know, bring Justice to, to people, and their families, somebody that works in burns. Science, I just want people to know how hard it is, to get away with murder of someone that, you know, every move that you make nowadays is reported. You leave trace evidence everywhere you go. It's very difficult to to really get away with something nowadays. Yeah. So I mean, I think I think one of the most important things here is like we have to kind of examine this crime. And if you ways in that this is so great driven in these guys are so young. And it's like they got away with one little, they got away with one robbery, right? Got like thirsty. Yeah. To want Maureen want get to want to make it so much better than us. And then the fact that they started plotting this whole thing with their manager. Ashley, who's thirty one. I mean your whole life's before you that's just less stock so sad. And if you watch you can look at some of their trial coverage they will click children like they have no idea what they've done. I mean, there's literally like oftentimes I say, this is somebody like what I'm talking about somebody that was victim or talking about somebody. That was a purpose. I often say, like this is somebody that could work at like you'd see at the mall. I often say that this is literally normal them all. Yeah, this is. A story of just it's greed. It really comes down to greed, and what did they need the money so much for nothing? There. Infinity is there and I mean this girl Ashley was just beloved and suffered a horrible death. And I just can't imagine. No, it's just it's, it's one of those things where you don't obviously understand the consequences of what you're doing, and you're so like tunnel vision to in thinking that this is going to answer whatever problems that you have not only that Jack and I were talking about this. We were working earlier when we were not recording, and we're just like we cannot believe people kill people. It's mind blowing for any reason, though. That's my that's even over even over love even those essentially this, it's like there's no mile connection. I talk actually your but in, in my book, there's a lot of book about this. Let me out now. It's like when you think about how hard it is it just wake up in the morning. Right. And do all of your stuff, and then you look back at all the tests that you studied for and all the things that you saved for it other relationships. You try to build an all of that over and over and over and over again, and then somebody can come by just like that guy. Take it all the way that's just me the most. And that's why would I do? Yeah. Police out there. Listen, Jack ni- are with Billy in that we also don't kill people and don't want people to the one that we have is that. No. We're, I mean this is why we do this. It's like every episode brings us one step closer. Maybe somebody who cares. It is like should I was considering robbing the store? I'm going to not do that. Now. You hope so it's not it's never been worth it. It wouldn't have never been nothing. Illegal is worth it. It's really not don't break. The law arguing is work really hard as we've had, we have live a dignified life, if you know of a crime, tell somebody, yeah. Listen. Life is really hard. It's even harder. If you're committing crimes truly like it just makes everything harder than your anxiety ridden. Like do they know? Well, I get caught do you wanna live like that? I like that. You don't fit. I live like that. And I'm an honest person it's burden only I should carry told me get worse. He'll make it worse for yourself by doing it crime. Okay. Well, we're going to end it there, if you guys are connected to you happy library day, we're not done yet. Well, do I mean, follows them Instagram at gigantic adults gutter app at the first degree and happy books? Happy chief pup day, but isn't she's ball day. Appreciation day. Trump and trade. I'm Tim Maguire, the napi newsman is the Trump administration was draws tariffs on steel aluminum from Canada, Mexico. Both countries say, they'll lift retaliatory tariffs on US goods clearing a hurdle for new trade agreement between the three nations. President Trump says the end of the terrace is good for all three countries, spin, charging us extremely high tariffs as much as two hundred eighty five percent or more for our agricultural products. The Missouri house passes a ban on abortions at eight weeks of pregnancy. Governor Mike Parsons, I've been pretty clear where I've been from day, one on right to live several other states have also passed so called fetal heartbeat laws. Today's action follows Alabama's passage of a Bill making performing an abortion a felony in nearly all cases. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has defied a subpoena from House Ways and means committee chairman, demanding six years of President Trump's tax returns committee, chairman Richard Neal says they're likely to go to court next week. I'm Tim Maguire.

Carter Carter Ashley Harris Clarence David Mallory murder American Eagle Alexis Billy robbery assistant manager Lexus Jack Vanik Europe American Eagle Google apple Alexandra Billy Jerry Billy Johnson
Discovering Death: The Murder of Kenny Thomas Jr.

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Discovering Death: The Murder of Kenny Thomas Jr.

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. Moving is one of the most stressful things in the world and trying to find a new apartment or home is such a drag. And that's why I love one of our sponsors apartments dot com. I actually use them to find my apartment that I live in now and I'm obsessed with it. So apartments dot com has the most listings, which means you have the most apartments townhomes condos and houses to choose from twin lock your full potential defined your best house. You are in control of your rental future, with apartments dot com and not to mention they have these amazing custom search tools. So if you're looking for something super specific like a pet friendly plays or commute friendly place. They have everything in one place with apartments dot com. What you see is what you rent, they combed through their listings to make sure all the information is verified and up to date. And I can't tell you how many times that I've almost been fooled by scam listings on other sites. So this way, you're not wasting your sweet sweet time and you can use it to have a cocktail. They're making the hunting for a new place process a breeze. Go, visit apartments dot com to find your perfect place apartments dot com change your apartment, and change the world warning. This episode contains graphic content listener discretion is advised. Degree degree close to. I the first degree. He thinks you're supposed to have any movies, not. We'll like. You know, I'm looking at listening to, you guys say this in reading it here on the outline. It's like these quotes are crazy. To me, this is it's so disconnected between not wanting to hurt a fly and then killing your own child. And then almost immediately having some sort of explanation in your brain for that, that, that, that's the thing to me that is just so scary about whether or not, she was sick or not, I, I don't know. But that's. It just doesn't make sense. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter next. Billy johnson. And today is a special day because we have our first degree connection in studio with us today, and he might be my favorite person in the entire world. Mr. Jared, Monaco, great to be here on time listener. On time listeners time caller longtime producer. Jared also produces our podcast that's listening and he's kind of the fourth silent member of the first degree crew. He is he is our group chat. We added him when we're at crime con- like because we're trying to figure out what we're doing over the weekend. And like meeting up, and whatever, and now he's stuck in our. It's a huge honor chat on silent, we won't be offended do so we got back from crime con-. Yeah. She, we have a little crime con recap. I think we should number one. I'm surprised that. Billy hung out with us most of the time because a lot most of well, obviously, my other podcast partner. Paul halls was was hosting the event and also had armed guards with him and things. So we have to best time. We went out one night, Paul was there. We were there we were on a roof roof, Catan roof in New Orleans is this real moment, where we were surrounded by literally other crime podcasters the entire. Yeah, it was so fun. So who was there? I have to say. Well, I who is a crime, con know who was that who is when we were drinking that night earns cafe. The captain was there. Garage generation wise. Justin from generation y you are the best. I had like he's the nicest guy. No, it's so funny. I think the true crime world is very interesting because it feels like we're in high school. There's a lot of drama happening between podcasts there might be some love, if there's clamming between clicks. It's a very fun, little world that I'm glad to be a part of who else do we hang out with? You got to tear it. We had a great night out with tear knew. All. Much fun. We met Deborah new, all her mom, so nice we watch. Dateline with the dateline crew, we dateline party, but that was great and stood behind me, and Josh Mankiewicz would pull me in each time. And give me like the inside scoop on what was going on the screen, which is actually really great really recording. Nancy grace and she caught me in waved, and I posted an excellent video on my Instagram story. It was amazing way. Can we talk about Nancy Grace's outfit? It was. Avant-garde. She had a Caparo musher like with cow. That were like there was like, four inches of skin between the leggings and the boots, and it was in her hair was up in like a beehive. It looked perfect for crime. Con honestly it was it was it was punk rock. She like she was very punk punk-rock, she's true crime punk rock at everybody at crime, con out of any convention, I've ever been to, you know, you go to always. Tell people crime con is like Comecon for true crime, Comecon is often kind of shit show. It's to so many people there. And it's so everybody's kind of pushing each other and everything. These are the nicest people of crime. Con everybody that listeners the came to us that took pictures with us. And the funny thing about the picture taking was is that, you know, we had a lot of fans come up to take pictures. We had a lot of people that were going to check out our swag. We had very cool swag, which will get Ashra pictures. And thank you, Jack for that, you're all March clean over here, and the funny thing is, is that we would all we would all get together with whatever listener. And then Jared. Would take the photo. So we were feeling at every other podcast or was feeling like a rockstar. Meanwhile, Jared is an actual for rocks. Wait a second. Are you Jared of the main in, then people were taking pictures of Jared, and he hijacked are our spotlight? These people didn't know that, like, you know, two thousand kids are singing Jared songs every night, Jack rented ability of the airport, and you're the first person that we saw when we got there, and it was so funny because I mean, I've only hung out with you in this setting down recording, and you're totally like you were in rockstar monthly that whole weekend. It was really fun to watch from my perspective. I, I didn't know what to expect thought. It was awesome. Billy was the rock star. He was like the Justin that the Goth Justin Timberlake. Yeah. Crime con-. I'll take that. And we were like the rest of and say, I was sure happy. I was Joey. I was JC JC. No, we were like joing. Chris kirkpatrick? Oh my God. That's what I meant when I said, how I was. I do a secret insiders presentation. And doctor Henry Lee was like showed up at my presentation, which was actually pretty fantastic. If you guys know who Henry Lee is and was basically, my from my hype man for five minutes. When he went up and did a bunch of jokes like warming up for about. It was it was. It was so fucking great. Yeah. It was so weird surreal. Yeah, the guy's got jokes. He's got the whole true crime world is just so so interesting to me. And I always great the drama. You know what I think tickets went on sale this week for next year? So we don't have our discount code yet. Let's hope it's degree twenty. Yeah. It's probably degree twenty. So just start using that. Yeah. Orlando here we come. Let's our holiday happy national eaten Oreo. Let me tell you about this. If you don't think it crime could be connected with Orioles think again. This is really delighted Billy Johnson. That's right. The Omaha world herald reported that Timothy, wills Lee, and this is from the from a crime online. Who was at number. They were right across from us. That was where I was born as aggressive grits. This guy was there. No, he wasn't there. The guy wasn't there twenty four member of the of some squadron. He was an airman he killed his girlfriend by smothering her to death while they sat and watched a television show on a laptop in her dorm room. Wills Lee, reportedly counted, to three before wrapping his arm around, her shoulder and placing her in a headlock. He then switched arms and choked at a death. This guy's a fricking bastard. But here's what happened after reportedly killing her, wills Lee grabbed a pack of Oreo cookies and Dillard's dorm room and fled the scene. So he was actually being called the Oriole killer, and this was actually pretty recently a couple years ago. Okay. Well, that's enough of that. All right. Well, turn down your lights. Turn up your anxiety because it's your time to cry. There is a specific moment in your life. When you learn what death is when you're a child, and whether that was through losing your first grandparent, flushing, your pet fish, down your toilet or sitting down next to an empty chair in third grade. We all have a distinct memory of understanding mortality for the very first time today's case will bring us back to that realization of how precious and uncertain life is for all of us in this week, we will learn how a seemingly happy and loving family was not what they seemed on the surface, and we will look into what exactly constitutes labeling someone as insane. So Jared today's case is set in Phoenix, and I've lived in this area of Phoenix, you're from this area of Phoenix. What was it like growing up there? I was born and raised. Born and Phoenix proper grew up on the west side of town. And then moving to the east valley's we lived in Chandler. I mean, you know, media talk about Jaylen all the time, but it was quiet and it was simple. It was very suburban and really the kind of standard being a kid story, I guess, for everybody played sports have a lot of friends in the neighborhood made a lot of friends through my parents. They sold real estate so families coming into Phoenix. They were selling houses to usually at kids, so I make friends with their kids, and then we'd all end up playing sports together. Intramural stuff. That's how I ended up meeting Kenny from the story. So. So. Today's case starts essentially, as how many of these true crime cases start with a couple who fell in love. Jerry tooth men was born in Carlsbad New Mexico. And she was the youngest of four children, her mom worked as a lawyer, her father was a local mind supervisor in, they all belong to their local country club. Ken, Thomas was when you're older and was introduced Jerry by his sister, when they were in the seventh grade a few years later, Jerry sat behind Ken in chemistry class. He was seventeen working as at a pizza place. And she was a sixteen year old honor student, he asked her out as friends, quote unquote, and then a romance blossomed, he said she was fun. She was a blast. She could play like a kid. She had a fire in a spirit and an independence that always attracted me. We spent a lot of time laughing. So Kevin Jerry got married in nineteen eighty and they went to the Caribbean for their honeymoon the next year. Jerry, graduated from New Mexico state university with a degree in marketing and started a fifteen year career in real estate at this point, Ken dropped out of college to take a job AT and T and the years that followed took them both to Phoenix Arizona in Albuquerque. Albuquerque New Mexico, like every couple, they endured the highs and lows of marriage, but the problems kept on coming in the form of layoffs, and losing their home. They ended up separating and then ultimately reconciled. In nineteen ninety eight the couple was on the verge of divorcing. When Ken decided, let's give this one more shot, and it was during this reconciliation the jury gets pregnant with Ken junior, Ken senior, he always wanted to be a dad. He cuts the umbilical cord for a while. Everything's going good. But then, soon the highs and lows come back and Jerry, who's the former country girl in college graduates, accessible, real estate agent. And the girl Ken fell in love with was introduced to meth and it sucked her in. So we had these highs and lows of sobriety. She would get sober than she would fall off. She would get sober shoot fall off six months clean, then falling off the wagon. He really wanted the marriage to work and the family to stay together. So he really tried to help and get her clean. So Jared, tell us about meeting Kenny. I mean, in this guys, we have to differentiate, there's a Ken senior in Kenny junior, so we're gonna go with Ken and Kenny. Yeah. So tell us under what circumstances, did you meet him? Yes. So I, I knew him as Kenny and we didn't we actually didn't go to school together. We were on a basketball team together. So we were on like an intramural sports league. And I think I was in fourth grade when all of this happened in. So the coach for my basketball team with my mom, she was my mom, my dad, so, like they like co coached, this bashful. Didn't KENNY'S didn't can coach a year as well. He did. So I actually played multiple years with with him. But came. So we had like this little group of little friends will basketball and through this, and we all would play sports together. We'd go from one season to the next. And so, yeah, it would be I would see him at at practice. I would see him we had, like little events, sometimes where the families get together we'd have game day, obviously, and my mom was babysitting the time my parents will real estate, so she would babysit and there were times where he would just come over to babysit. So he'd be at my house. I think he was about a year younger than I was so. I think he looked up to me a little bit. And we would always hang out new come over. What would you guys do? I remember I have like specific memories of, of being in the backyard playing around in the backyard as Phoenix hot. Remember being summertime. We had like a kiddie pool, so I remember being like in this little tiny pool above ground pool. And playing basketball upfront. I was kind of like my biggest that's how I knew him. Yeah. So, right. This little buds. So that means your parents knew Jerry, and Ken. So do you what have they said? I mean, I'm sure they know that you are doing the podcast. Yeah. I mean, what have they said about about them as people at that time? I always remember so same profession. My parents, my mom at the time with a real estate agent, so was his mom. And sure there was some bonding over that. And I just remember her saying that. They were nice people who really normal people and they got along. And we were close enough where they would let her watch their kid. And you know, it was it was just a normal and friendship. Yeah. So that the drug I mean because at this point based on the time line so that the drug problem had started. Right. So that was not evidence. At this time. No, not your parents and not to fourth grade zero not at this time at all. And I think it wasn't until later on that maybe my mom's very perceptive person, and I think she started to pick up on, I think she thought maybe there was like alcohol long these talking about it. So but as you as a little kid, it's so funny, when you know, when you're younger and other people's parents, there might be like things going on. But as a kid, you don't notice any of it at all your dislike though. There's another adult, they're just as perfect as my parents are, like, is that how you perceived we truck bomb. Yeah. You trust. At all Stewart. Just parents, there was this kid's parents. Yeah. You'd never looked at it like there could be anything outside of normal. Just the same thing. It's summertime. The humidity is creeping in. 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But Jerry's behavior was becoming very Roddick escalating, and eventually can couldn't take it anymore. And he filed for divorce from the woman, he still called and considered to be the love of his life, and it is different things, you can still love someone and just be like this isn't healthy. Absolutely. You know, so along and sometimes violent custody battle between Jerry and Ken. Ensued. And in court during a divorce proceeding? A lot of the struggles Jerry was grappling with sort of came to the surface for all to see. It turned out that Jerry had been hospitalized at least three times since nineteen Ninety-three for detox from method phetamine abuse and stabilization of her mental health disorders which included paranoid schizophrenia, and we all know drugs, like meth, exacerbate symptoms of such mental illnesses. Ken senior said, I cannot emphasize how quickly and totally meth can destroy you and your family. She stops coming home at night, or she'd, come home at obsess about random things in once Jerry actually pulled out a gun at the airport, and then she disappeared with Kenny for two weeks, because someone was quote unquote after her. So she's dealing here with psychosis. Induced by methamphetamine. Exacerbated obviously, by your schizophrenia. So jury at this point had also convinced herself that Ken was quote, one of the bad people, and she thought that he was pumping gas through these little pin holes in their acoustic ceiling to take over their minds. And she claimed to see hieroglyphics on, on her toilet, and she wants moved from apartment to apartment to avoid, quote, being listened to and at one point, Jerry told Ken that he had sold her their son to the devil. She took apart appliances like the microwave. She took apart the sprinkler systems. She felt that if she had reassembled them and they worked, right? That meant the government had not put any listening devices inside them. So there's clearly a lot of stuff going, not an engineer. So putting those back together as a huge challenge apologised broke. Right. So, and then believe them believe that the government was aggravated or paranoia. Right. We are so savvy, can you imagine the horror of your partner who loves you who still loves you who's just trying to do everything to be, Dan, you the best thing for you because like she's got schizophrenia, and she's not treating it and she's doing drugs, like it's got to be just devastated, though, so frustrating so so so upset and feeling so helpless about, and she wants disappeared with Kenny when Ken was in the shower and goes to a neighbor's house so cans in the shower, he comes out of the shower, they're not there. And she goes to the neighbor's house. And she begs the neighbor to protect her, and, and Kenny, because she said a Colt was after them. Another time. She actually verbally attacked the ice cream lady, and accused her putting drugs in the ice cream and trying to take over the minds of the children. So it was the schizophrenia and then her diction she actually went through rehab five times. But obviously she kept on going back. And when this is all happening. Jared, you your mom never saw any of this behavior, because obviously this. She wasn't containing this just your own home. She was attacking an ice cream man. She went over a neighbor's house, claiming about the colts like it was going beyond the home thing. And you didn't your mom never saw on you of this happening. Right. No. And like I was saying I just talked to my mom today. Yeah. On the phone because I was trying to refresh on some of this stuff and you know, in her opinion, she just said that Jerry was most likely in Oklahoma. Yeah. And that was the extent of, of what even this morning. She thought that right? You didn't really she does didn't know the ins and outs of this case that of we're talking about the late ninety s and even though meth really got big and the south in the south west Ryan, late nineties, that's before it really exploded. And particularly split in Phoenix meth meth had a problem in Phoenix did. But that was like the early two thousands. Yeah. Well, I mean I mean, I'm nine I don't remember I to me, it was just think that she was like, playing around, even if you saw some and, you know, when I really think about it. I definitely saw way more of his of Ken, is dad the night, saw his mom, and I'm good reason for that. Bright. So. When Jerry was sober, none of this happened. And maybe that's what if when she was around maybe you're seeing sobre her to, and that's probably when she was entrusted with, with little county county on 'cause Ken seem to be kind of in control in D was, I don't think, in a shitty way in like he was probably over parenting, when she was having her bouts of, obviously, succumbing to her addiction. And then when she was fine. He it was his love of his life of it again, and trusting her and, and she was probably more apparent in present bright. And even when she was in an inpatient rehab, Ken senior was committed to keeping them together. And he would take any to visit her every single day. So he's being a good parent trying to keep the good husbands good husband and he was super worried that jury was going to kill herself. And at one point, he said, my worst fear was having to explain to Kenny why his mother killed her why his mother killed herself. And in the midst of the back and forth with the. Divorce and all the chaos on August second of that year. A judge awarded emergency temporary custody of Kenny junior to consider after he challenged his wife's capability as a parent, and according to this petition Ken stated, quote, Jerry has a severe history of mental illness, as well as substance abuse, so Ken senior was ultimate, ultimately awarded custody of county junior. But the emergency custody only lasted for ten days and on August twelfth Jerry was awarded primary custody after both parties reached a settlement in the dispute. The settlement called for canape Kenny up for school every day and return him to his mother at eight pm. Back in the not back in the day. I mean this was twenty years ago, ninety seven so twenty three twenty three years ago. Do you think that like if this was happening today? Do you think that the mom would be awarded custody a- knowing that she had fame? She's been to rehab. I don't many times we don't know what was we. We can't tell what was present potentially presented to the judge. And how she was presenting herself to the judge also was being presented, but it's also not necessarily and we also know that Ken seems like he's, you know, both parties reached the settlement here. So, you know, when this is the person that's the love of your life, the father of your the mother of your child, and she seems like she's better, you know, she, obviously, she do this court gate was coming up. She's probably gotten her stuff together. She's acting like the old the old Jerry. And we'll, we'll right. And you have to remember to it's like he goes to school. One two kids go to school. Seven o'clock, they get picked up at three. He's got him until eight and then it's like great. You just have to go sleep at your mom's and then you're, I know where you are. I've got you the other hours you're awake in. It's kind of like enough to be like I could take temperature everyday to see how you're doing I can monitor, whether she's taking care of you. I can monitor your or you being nourished. Are you sleeping are you healthy? And I think for him he didn't want to exacerbate the anger. She was having at him by probably fighting it bright and I will say as a child of divorce the push poll of this is miserable for the children in miserable for the parents, because they're going through essentially break-up, that's like ego driven and all these things in generally the children are obviously, at the forefront. But they're sometimes more objects than than. The focus of where the best interest should be. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's like a lot of this happened in my childhood, where it's like CPS was visiting it was horrible. It was horrible. And, you know, I get it it's painful for each party. You know, but I wish there was a better way 'cause horrible. And I'm sure it can senior in this circumstance was just trying to make it as painless as possible like she seems like she's fine. Let's just make it as easy as it can be for Kenny and. Not try to complicate things. Exactly. And I'm sure I mean, Ken senior seemed like a very level headed dude who was just trying to like do the best thing, but also not upset everybody. Right. So as we've said, even though they were divorcing in marriage is falling apart, Ken senior wasn't exactly trying to take Kenny away from his mother. We said this before she was a good mom when she was clean and can was struggling with the fact that he was also losing the love of his life. So he's going through what's essentially break up and dealing with all this. But the main focus for Ken was that Kenny junior was eight years old at an incredibly impressionable age, and he really his focus was protecting him even if that meant sacrificing love of his life in his life. So what can was asking for. As, as far as a culmination of the divorce was fifty percent of the time. And he just wanted one percent more so that if she felt back into her worst drug habits and into those horrible moments he could protect Kenny junior, if necessary until she got better. But when Jerry heard this and realize that this is what can senior was fighting for. She perceived as differently and she took this as a job, took it very personally interminably as a threat, of course, like you know, children. They're the most important thing, once people have them so I can understand. But. So she proceeded as Ken was trying to take or hurt her or take their son away from her, and she became really hostile towards him. And in retaliation of learning this she took out a restraining order against Ken senior, and accused him of hitting her. So this is getting bad and we've seen this a lot of times. So at this point, Kenan Jerry, we're still married. But their divorce was reaching a point, it was nearing conclusion, so the stakes were getting really high where like soon, whatever terms were set we're going to be sentenced Joan. So final custody was under consideration of a mediator with the conciliation services office before granting, a final divorce decree Jerry, Thomas had undergone a battery of drug tests in August of nineteen Ninety-six under court orders. She tested negative on August sixteenth, but didn't submit to testing on either August twenty first or August, when he third claiming that she didn't have enough money for the twenty dollar fee for each test. But it sounds like she was stalling to me. But then she tested negative on August twenty seventh. While this is going on the back and forth, custody pushing pullover Kennedy junior persisted for months, almost cyclically, they would fight over him call, you know how all these disputes and then reconcile, and then things were seemingly normal for their divorce situation in the routine remained relatively consistent in that Ken senior steadfastly, picked his son up from school every day. So we can spend time with them before bringing him up to Jerry's at eight PM, and he also coaches basketball team as you mentioned with Charrette here to get extra time with his son wherever he cut and eventually, Jerry retaliates to the moves that she perceives Ken to be making and even though can wasn't abusive, she took out this restraining order out of spite because she was so angry about the fifty one percent custody situation that can had over Kenny so can refuse to stop picking up from school. But to accommodate the restraining murder, the jury filed he would drop county off at a. Store on the corner, near the home and watch him walk to his mom's to ensure that he was saved. So he was who's watching little Kenny. He wasn't just dropping him off and leaving. So was she trying to stop this, picking up from school thing thinking that he wouldn't be able to drive him home? I guess because that's what it's like oh, you can't come within however many feet. Yeah. And she's like, Jesse can't pick them up, and he's like, Nope gonna yeah. No. She's like watch him walking flexing. The restraining order. So at this point juries, she's in a bad place. She had just lost her car. She's behind on her rent. She can't pair bills and recently she'd been spotted in the town's stumbling around drunk and a few days before that she had gone to a local restaurant got so drunk that she passed out in one of the boots, and this tumultuous back and forth and the custody battle, and the restraining order and shuffling, Kenny around. It went on for a good six months. Yeah. Went on for a while as it does. So Jared, your family, your mom and dad coached the basketball team. But when you're they didn't. And then KENNY'S dead. Yes. That would that would have been probably the most time spent around him in his family. Because every time we go to practice it would be or a game or whatever it would be his dad running the show and I remember having a lot of fun on that team as you would being nine years old playing a sport that you probably not very good at. And so there's certainly a bond that we both had back then it was just, I remember it being so light hearted and so simple. You know. And, and always thought that everything seemed completely normal, especially with, with the dynamic between him and his dad coaching. You know, it just seemed like they're like your family like my fam- years did me, a lot of when my parents would coach me, you know. Did Kim senior seem like a good dad you did? I mean he they was there was there was nothing. I mean what? What does it say about someone to go out and coach their kids basketball team? I mean that, that in itself is, I think just like something that you do as a parent, if you're trying to get involved with your kid more trying to be a part of their life. So, yeah, I think he, he was a good dad. So we were on our way back from cryan. Con we're on the plane, we get our seeds get a drink. And I look over and what is Lexus doing? She's playing best fiends. So if you haven't heard me talking about best fiends before get ready to have your new favorite game on your mobile phone. So best fans that's friends without the are as a five star rated mobile puzzle game, and is a dictating you can solve thousands of fun, puzzles, and click tons of cute characters. There's an epic storyline that'll keep you engaged, and it's super cute and colorful, and I love a good aesthetic. There are thousands of hours of gameplay. It's easy to learn, but difficult to master. So that means you're using your brain. It's a perfect casual game to play alone or with family and friends, and you can play it on the plane. So join over ninety million downloads globally and get best fiends today. Again, it's a five star rated game and you can get it on the apple app store or Google play. So download best beans. For free. That's friends without the are again, best fiends. That's friends without the are make sure to stick around after this podcast to get the latest headlines from the AP news minute. Hey, everybody, you have to check out this amazing neutral crime podcast. It's called twenty two hours, an American nightmare. It's about a murder that took place in Washington DC, a family and their housekeeper were held hostage for nineteen hours before being killed when the murderer set their mansion on fire. He'll be shocked by what they went through during these nineteen hours and you won't believe how they found the guy I won't ruin anything. But I'll I will say is pizza crust. I'm telling you. It's awesome podcast. One teamed up with award winning journalist from news giant WTO p to put the story together and the podcast is great. Download twenty two hours in an American nightmare now on apple podcasts and podcast one new episodes every Monday. So then on February twenty first. Ken senior went to pick up Kenny junior from school, and he wasn't there and Ken senior hadn't been able to track down a sun for several days, and they became really concerned, he didn't know where he was. So he goes looking for Jerry at her job. And she worked at this local fabric store to see if he could find her, and as it turned out, Jerry's boss, who was the owner of the fabric store revealed that he suspended Jerry because Jerry was using drugs and her eyes looked really off. And she also had some bizarre behavior going on. So she was suspended from this job. And in fact, actually, Jerry had quit the job a week prior after getting into a disagreement with her boss. So can senior is looking for his son Kenny, he can't reach Charing and he can't go to the house because of their restraining order to look for them because. Because he's so concerned with maintaining the fifty one percent custody has, but he's not willing to jeopardize it by knocking on her door. What if she just not answering the phone, what if she's being stubborn and messing with him, like he's not only that she's doing it on purpose to try to get him to violate his restraining order anything. So he calls the cops as you should. So. But what he did do is drive down the street once just passed the house to see. Are they in the yard in like that was probably violation, but he resisted going to the door so but he's like a worried father or like obviously he felt something in his goes wrong. Yes, he did. So he told the police on the phone that he feared his wife was interfering with custodial orders, and that she was afraid she was going to lose her custody altogether, because she had to submit to this final drug test as the divorce proceedings were nearing to an end and Oz. It does your his mind is racing the possibilities. She could've flooded with Kenny somewhere like she had done before she could have hurt herself. She could be on a bender and Kenny could be somewhere alone. The possibilities, he was he was going through were terrifying and all of them are awful. And two police patrolmen. They arrive on the scene around three fifteen pm and their leading by Jerry says your answers, the door is what we're saying and she has to bleeding wrists that were self inflicted injuries. This is really not looking good when the police entered the home to search for Kenny they found him but to the absolute power when the police entered the home to search for Kenny they found him. But to their absolute har-. They found him dead. They found his body. So they found his body, as she was walking out of the house, and she placed an object, which looked like a pillow next to a dumpster, and then she ran, but they caught up to her. She was taken to the local hospital. And then she was transferred to the police department for questioning. So what happened to Kenny? And again, this is a warning about what you're going to hear because we're talking about what happened to child. When they approach Kenny on the scene. He had a cloth belt around his neck, and it was tightened like a news and it had locked the buckle in place. And it was there, even as the boy, awoke and struggled to breathe, it was wrapped so tightly around his neck that it left a pattern. He had actually been strangled to death by his own mother. Jared. What was was this something that you've even understood as a kid when you found out? How did you find out? All right. So this because I'm sitting here with against we're doing this in real time. I did not know these needs. So I'm a kid nine when this happens. And what did your mom did your mama? I'm assuming the, the way months, probably doesn't know any of this stuff either. And I purposely, didn't we have there's an outline? You have for the episode night, purposely didn't want to read it because I wanted to find out but here and that, that is nothing like what I thought had actually happened. You know, I, I was nine when I got the news. So my mom being a mom had told me in the way that, you know, I feel like the old the only way the how do you communicate this to a nine year old in? I knew that she knew it was bad. But, you know, I mean sitting here in hearing those details, but that is like that's like the saddest thing possible. What did you what did she? Well, I remember her taking me. I remember being alone with my mom and her basically. Explaining to me that this kid who I've known for a long time for, I guess, to a nine year old, a long time that I wouldn't see him ever. And I remember saying it in really vague kind of terms like that. And I remember asking questions I remember saying you know what you mean. He comes over and you babysit him like in his his he moving what, what could this possibly like what does it mean and through the line of questioning that, I think any nine year old would probably ask after like a vague explaination like that, you know, she had to tell me eventually just like. But he's, he's dead. And that was something that I just set off a chain reaction. My mind who was like a. Wrestling with that idea at that age was just so overwhelming. I think for me that I it took a long time even as a kid to process that, you know, I, I kept asking questions. Okay. I think I kept saying things like, well you know what does that mean as far as like if I'm not going to see him again, like he's on the team and all this, very, it's very, there's a disconnect happens there, I feel like there was for me. Kids are some tangible like I you know, the team like you don't it's conceptually fury hard to understand even for adults. We have late Jin, we have all these things that help like numb, the confusion of that concept, because it is still the unknown is confusing. And in my family life growing up. My family was religious for sure. And so I think that definitely played a part in in how my mom had broken the news to me, like, you know, he's in a better place and all this stuff. So and he is he the first person that you knew too. Die. Yeah. I think so. Yeah. For me, I had never had to deal with today. Did they ever have the discussion with you about what death was? Did you understand the concept of? Okay. So, so just as an example, going to church as a kid, you realize there, the whole ideas it, because it was like a Christian church, so we had gone to, and it was like the idea of an afterlife. Cop me about death in it. So, you know, so, like I, I had the concept of it in my mind. And you knew what happened was. And what I there was a. Yeah. All that stuff had been constructed in my mind already, like I, there's plenty of imagery and all the stuff that I had read on Sundays and stuff about what that entailed. But for me, this was the first time I actually had to confront actually happening in life, you know, it, it reminds me of the story that my dad would tell me, so, and I go over this in the book, like like my dad was telling me all of these his life story, and he tells me the store that when I was six years old, and he tells me the story about Paul Judd. And Paul Judd was this kid who? Was Bob got off the school bus dropped his lunch box, and then the school butts ran over him at his school back in the fifties. And my dad wasn't at school. That day he was went the next day. And he's like, well, whereas my friend, Paul and this like he's not going to be here anymore. That was my introduction to death and by him saying that and it's like when I started writing it, I realized, like, how much that affected me an affected my whole behavior about what death was because he wasn't religious my father, you know, so he sort of just and I think that's one of the reasons why I hate, you, you always gonna hate murderer so much, but it's just like why really want to catch a lot of them. It's because of that just because it's like I don't I'm not sure what's what's out there after. And that's what's the scariest thing, especially because kids are so conceptual. And so, I guess, physical and the aspect because they're going to keep asking questions. We'll where are they where they go? Where's their body? Where's this? Where's that? And. As an adult trying to explain that to a child, we don't know you know, we don't know what happens after. So how are you supposed to explain that to this little perfect being that an a situation? That's so distraught to begin with homicide is the ultimate crime in Billy's, so this before, and I've said this before and that, like what you're taking away is everything. They've done and everything they're ever going to do in the magnitude of that is unmeasurable and, you know, trying to it's fascinating hearing, because my next question is like, we just heard how you interpreted as child's but hearing, these details now how does it make you feel about, Jerry? Kenny and Ken. And like I mean, Jared, you're, like one of the most kind, compassionate people I've ever met. So, like I'm sure you're having all sorts of like. Like, obviously, the older, you get the more you the more you see your parents, as human beings. I feel like for me and the more I can look at a situation like this and. You know, like even like working with you guys on a lot of these a lot of these cases just listening to what you've been talking about. It's like I understand that this stuff is out there understand this. This isn't like. A one I'm not the only person ever happen to, but coming to terms with the fact that, you know. Something this serious. And this gruesome in happened to somebody that was just a childhood friend of mine. Wrestling with the actual details of it. That's, that's the thing that I don't think that I was like really necessarily prepared for. I had no idea. This wasn't like. My knowledge up until I talked to you about it was, you know, this was a friend of mine, who I, I knew that his mom had murdered him. I had I knew that he was strangled, but the actual like, just seeing just hearing it, you know, is, is kind of I don't know, foot puts it into perspective for me. You know. Well, and we also I mean, I at least, like sanitize the details because why, you know, gratuitous violence doesn't really interests us. No, it's more just so I mean, I think one of the craziest things about this is that Jerry seemed to be so normal without drugs. And I was doing some research on meth. Meth is a crazy drug like the history of methods fascinating like what it was intended for what ended up ultimately doing to our country. We could do it entire like multi part podcast on it. But, you know, it is it is crazy that she could go from, like a doting mother to murderer like in like that. The other thing I would add, I don't know if you want, we want more so more, Jared, so I, I remember this is one of my, it's where I where I don't know, when they say you're supposed to remember stuff from, like earliest memories, but this is a very vivid. Memory for me was was the several weeks or months after this happened after I got this news, I remembered laying a bunk bed at the time. I remember laying in my bed at night time. And I couldn't sleep, and I remember stirring up the bars that would go underneath the top mattress and just having a mild existential like crisis as a kid, I remember thinking about, you know, death and what happens after all these thing, it had triggered the this thought process that was not a it shouldn't be a part of anybody's life that, that age, you know, it just wasn't until until this happened. And so, I remember going back and I remember laying in my bed, and just thinking about. You know, just laying awake and not being able to sleep some nights t to any of that now. Yes. Does this happen to me? Now, what when do I normally go to bed like an our to after me, like Li I stay up late because we'll Jack Costa pet on it. Jackson gonna lady. But, like after ten pm. That's why your skin looks good. I can't sleep though. I just I, I smoke weed. And then I have existential grades, right? Nobody. You had. You had like a whole like a few years ago. You have like a huge like existential, breakdown, basically. Yeah, no. Yeah. I did. And you're not alone, and I mean, I think it's the weight of just life life settles on everybody. That's that's that's almost unavoidable for a lot of people. But I think that one of the mechanisms that I use now to, to escape some of that stuff is too. I just stay up until I'm dead S tires. I just go and tell I'm like, okay, I could just collapse right now. And I remember this going back to two being young and like trying to pretend that I was sleeping, you know, so that I could get away with like these way, probably going to go. What are you doing, though? While are you just laying awake? Are you writing? Then, you know GameBoy came out for you. Whatever. Like I it was anything I could do to prolong going to bed. Did you it? I do the same thing. I'll do anything. Why do we do it? It feels like shit. But we do it. I wasn't ready music. Then I was. I do it now, though. Yes. Like when you can't sleep. Do you of course you got the guitar nighttime. Of course. Now, I'm sorry. We were on our way home from New Orleans from crime Khan. And I was sitting next. Well, Jack was sitting next to me. Jared wizar-, and I saw him on his computer. Keyboard piano ING. Literally like. Keyboard using the ki a y t and I'm like, oh, my God, he's making music right here for the opera on on his court. He board. I love it. But now, now I can channel that night owl time into like productive and has sometimes too. I mean I stay up and work on this stuff all night like being the Batman. Yeah. Batman, I was one of the main that miniature crime. I have one more question about that. So when you're having Irwin, you started having these sleepless nights in these little mini existential, crises. When you're a kid, were you, when you were thinking about that, where he thinking about, like, what if this could happen to me, or this could happen to my parents or my sister, or would never be me? It would never be in word. Because my parents, I've, my I have a fantastic family. My parents were great growing up. I had a really happy childhood, everything was super happy normal, but it was other people have thinking about my sister and my parents. Exactly. Like what you just said. It was thinking about what happens to them, when what do I do without them? It was a very sort of outward like afraid for other people. This just happened to someone else. It could happen to another someone else. You know, like, yeah, it was never n word. It was always who around me could this happen to, you know, because that was my, my previous experience. I think we as like a people really minimize trauma. Yeah. And we don't realize how. Jarring these things can be having to wrap your head around that kind of concept at that age and then probably as you're getting older, probably finding out like piece by piece that it wasn't quite what you thought on coming to terms with, like details. And now I mean you just learn these, and I'm sorry that you had to because they're horrible. It's closure in a lot of ways to though. So that's why I was like, I, I was looking forward to hearing how you were going to put some of this together. And I think for me, it's it, there's a bit closure because left open ended nobody wanted to even talk about it after it happened. It was very you know, I went to a memorial at his school. We like planning a tree for him. And that was my last memory that was there was nothing after that it was just me wrestling with the fact that, that was my last, you know, sort of send off. A lot of designer items, but I'm going to let you in on a little secret. I have never bought anything full price, and that is because of the sponsor, the real real, I spend every single morning, probably an hour, searching this website for luxury items at ninety percent off the retail value because they're, they're leading resale of scented luxury from top designers. So you can shop designers like Louis Vuitton Gucci Rolex cardiac and hundreds more for up to ninety percent off, retail new arrivals come in daily in every single item is authenticated, by the real real is team of experts, two days ago, I just bought a pair of Burberry leather booties for ninety percent off their retail value, and they are an amazing condition. You can shop and consign women's and men's luxury as well as fine jewelry watches art and home you can shop online or you can visit one of their stores and so or West Hollywood or their newest location on Madison Avenue in New York and in store. New customers can receive an automatic twenty five dollars at checkout. So go to the real real dot com. Com and use code real for twenty percent off select items with promo code real. Again, that's the real real dot com. Promo code real. For twenty percent off their already Mark down items. So just as Jared's mom had to sit him down and tell him about this news. It started spreading throughout the neighborhood. And I'm sure lots of parents had to tell their kids and the same difficult way. So neighbors said that they said that Jerry loved her son more than anything, and that she was always a doting mother, a neighbor on the scene named Charlotte wise, men, who was a friend of the family and a neighbor said that Jerry really didn't have anything else to live for. She idolized little Kenny, and he was her world, another neighbor named Gladys Brown said that she was a single parent and she was having such a hard time. She just lost her car in her phone. She lost her job last week. And she had heard that she was losing custody of her son yesterday. Neighbor said that Kenny and his mother were always playing around constantly camping in the backyard riding bikes, roller skating and running around with remote control cars anything that little Kenny wanted to do that. She did. And she didn't do anything else, but play with him when he was there. So from the outside, they just seemed like a normal. Well, and I think of family, I think she loves Kenny, I think she's sick. Yeah. I mean I don't know this is one of those things where it's like I don't wanna say anything with conviction because this could be very polarizing situation. But it's like hearing that contrasted with what she did doesn't compute for me. And even from what her husband can said, like, it's not she clearly wasn't all bad, because he was saying, this is the love of my life. She's a good mother guiding fighting for her to forty nine percent custody, even though she was troubled. Yeah. So I think this was just a shock for. Everybody where we're no one's expecting. You know, this loving mother to do something like this. Right. So. To KENNY'S father Ken, obviously, this was life running this with this was the worst case scenario in as Jack said, previously, where it's like he speculated. And he had he'd thought previously that her own suicide was the worst case scenario and that he feared having to explain to Kenny junior. Why his mother had killed himself? You know, drugs, depression schizophrenia. But, you know, this is this was life ruining for was beyond his comprehension, because he loved her and on what we know. He never expected that she would be capable of killing her son. Of course. If that was his worst case scenario, you marry someone you, you have them up on a pedestal. Yeah. You know when you marry someone it's like do no wrong. But we're all, you know, we all were all human. And it's like what Jared said earlier about your parents, the older you get become more and more human? And with. Our partners to it's like we're human, there's going to be like a few Babbel's not in a mean way, but it's not bad. So this is just another warning. We're gonna get into some description as far as what happened to Kennedy junior during Jerry's confession. So just a warning. So once Jerry was in custody, she started talking about what led to the murder of her son. And she told the police that in the hours before dawn, she crept into his room. Slipped. Her size, thirty three ten belts around his neck and pull it tight. She said, I didn't want to hurt him too bad. And when the police found him he was. Partially on the bed. So Jerry told the police that Kenny woke up for about five minutes before she decided to do what she had done in that she asked him if he had to go to the bathroom, and he said, no rolled over and went back to sleep. And she said, I've been going back and forth about this for like two years. This is dry quote. I was just doing what God wanted me to do this world isn't good for anybody. And that's not a real off the wall. Crazy idea tons of people feel like I do cards. So she said that after she killed Kenny. She went into the dining room. And. This is a court. She thought for a long time about quote, just how we are the world is. And then she started to cut herself with the box cutter. But then she tells police that, God didn't want her to kill herself. So she stopped, and it took twelve sutures to stitch her left, wrist. And when police asked her if she would ever undo what she had done, which is a really interesting question to ask she said, no. Because he he's in a very, very much better place. And like I said, this is this is her quote again. Like I said, I don't even hurt flies. I see a fly on the wall or in the kitchen I use glasses to get them outside. I mean, that's the kind of person I am little fly or a little bug in the corner, and I put it outside on a tree. When kids die, it's for a reason, you know, this is her words, somebody's got to learn something from it. I didn't want to hurt him too bad. She later said two she later told the police about the actor south. And in her mind, it's like she, she still thinks that she did the right thing. And that's the that's the crazy thing because you're looking at this, and we're going to get into the whole idea of what insanity is. But you're looking at this going. No sane person would ever say something like this. It just doesn't make any sense at all. And it seems like. It doesn't even seem cold or callous or calculating. It just seems just wrong and it's almost dismissive you. I just think that, like, you know, I'm, I'm looking at listening to, you guys say this in reading it here on the outline and it's like these quotes, are, this is crazy to me. This is it's so disconnected between not wanting to hurt a fly and then killing your own child. And then almost immediately having some sort of explanation in your brain for that, that, that, that's the thing to me that is just so scary about whether or not, she was sick or not, I, I don't know. But that's I it just doesn't make sense. Well, I was doing some research in, we have to get into this at some point. Somebody's Welby be now. But I was doing some research on an everybody knows there's a method democ, everybody watch break. Everyone watched breaking. Bad. Everyone knows it meth is, but I don't know if you have actually, like, Google, what like meth does to your brain. So I did. So, basically this guy named Dr Richard Rawson, who is the associate director of UCLA's, integrated substance abuse programs said that they did an experiment. I'm not saying he did it. But there has been an experiment done on animals that comparative dopamine levels caused by various stimuli. So sex causes dopamine levels to jump from one hundred two hundred units cocaine causes them despite two three fifty units methamphetamine, you get a release from the base level to twelve fifty units twelve hundred fifty units. So sex is causing three hundred cocaine three fifty and that's how a maze ING Mathis. So for your pleasure, pleasure, Sunsari, exactly. So in this is what drugs activate it's the same video. Oh, games it's the same as roller coasters chocolate does it? But like, you know, you, you guys get the things that caused pleasure. So it causes essentially twelve times as much release a dopamine as you'd get from food sacks in pleasurable activities. So. There's nothing else like it. I mean other than probably heroin. But that's not what I was examining in this in this episode. So when the drug wears off, obviously users experience, profound depression, and feel the need to keep avoiding feel the need to keep taking the drug, but when the keep taking the drug, they become extremely depressed when they don't get the same reaction. And then you have to add in that she's paranoid schizophrenic. Yeah. So his mental health issues again with so, and you get the paranoia. So the same way. Okay. So this is how I know how people understand math like Adderall when your, your sense. When your senses are heightened, you get into this fight or flight mode. It's why you're more jumpy. It's why you can be scared if someone walks in on you just even briefly when your natural or something meth, does that time like five hundred. So when you take some meth, you're just like everything scares you like if you have a thought, like what Jared, and I were talking about about death. You will. Spiral and think you're going to die and get paranoid and start trying to stop that. Like this is what we're dealing with in. This was a normal woman who off of meth in on her presumably schizophrenia, Mads was normal, and loving and. It's horrible. It's horrible. I wanna add something into your worse. Okay. So as you're talking about that. There's this separate called explain it to me, like I'm five, so I just looked in the Jared introduced me to. L I five but I just googled, what is about to do to your brain. Explain it to me, like I'm five, and there was a separated about it. And this was the top answer on it, and it's very interesting. So. Some person answered it says meth makes you really, really happy, more happy than you could ever get without drugs. But it also reduces your ability to become happy if very quickly reaches a point where you have to keep using math, because you can never really feel happy without it, then another person at it. It's not like a goofy happy. It's the kind of happy, where everything is fascinating. Everything you love life, any love being alive. You feel strong confident and able to meet any challenge. It's ally, this amount of pleasure extracts, equal pain, horror, and misery. I'll never forget the screaming yawning emptiness of my soul. I wanted to tear the flesh from my face with my fingernails on swallow a nuclear bomb to blow every atom of my body as far away from each other as possible, but it didn't have enough strength to even lift my hands. Nor could I sleep. That's how mathematics your brain feel in your math came from. I mean meth was for war methods for soldiers in World War Two, so it's fascinating. We don't have time to get into the history of math. You can be a good person instill, get addicted to meth and do horrible things. And, but you could have started, as a good person, and I'm not justifying Jerry's behavior. But hearing, the people who, like went to bat for her for who, who knew her. I feel like we are dealing with two different people, and I think it's okay to say like on meth Jerry is evil murderer in off. Math. Jerry is sorry, probably. So Jerry, was obviously arrested and ended up being charged with first degree murder. And she was facing the death penalty the trial approach and the judge would not allow us violent picture of Kenny to be shown to the jury claiming that it'd be prejudicial, but they would be allowed to see a single autopsy photo. He justified this by saying that he looked quote unquote. Peaceful in this picture by day nine of the trial. Ken, Thomas senior had his usual seat at the end of the front bench directly behind the prosecutor and next younger sister. He listened intently as the witnesses went on non about Jerry's mental health her history of Matthews and her beliefs that he was he was evil incarnate. Jerry was firmly entrenched in her beliefs that a vast satanic coal existed in our community, and that shined red laser lights under her house, and that reading the bible, would protect her Ken was pissed about the trial telling the media that this isn't about my child is become about Jerry, which is unfortunately, what it always was about also saying that he didn't die quickly and I knew his mom killed him. And the thought of his realizing this eats me up and. There were a bunch of articles that said, like he was pissed at the clinical tone of the trial. So it was less of he was just like you're talking about this. Like it's like a corporate litigation. Yeah. That's what really bothered him. Like he's like this is a purse my son. You know, and they were talking about, like stole the life of big talked about it, like it was a transaction. Yeah. And like his son was like an object. Yes. Understandably is deeply upsetting sixty seconds. That's exactly how long this commercial will asked. But do you know what else you can do in about a minute, you can get an offer for your car with truecar? That's right. And the amount of time that it takes you to floss your teeth pet your dog. Do a few sit-ups make a Cup of coffee or just listen to my beautiful voice, you can get a truecar cash offer and best of all you can do it from your smartphone or from your home. Just go to truecar and simply enter your license plate, number, and watch how your car's details pop up. You can answer a few questions and you'll get an accurate true cash offer from a local truecar certified dealer. It is that easy, and after that, you can bring in your car, and they'll check it out with you together. 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So the defense was hoping that she would be found guilty except insane and that verdict would allow her to be sentenced to mental hospital instead of a prison, and if she was insane jurors would have the decide if it was self inflicted, if the insanity was actually self inflicted with years from the years of method Beuys says a lot of area bills going with this trial. So Kent Thomas said that Jerry started using math. In the eighties, and it caused that rampant paranoia. Like you were talking about before. She said he said that it took control of her from the first time she tried it. And prosecutors argued that state law at the time said that a person cannot be found guilty except insane if he or she suffers from disorders that result from acute, voluntary intoxication, or withdrawal from alcohol or drugs, which is fascinating us because you go from like, the example would be if you get into freak car accident. And it's an accident, which you're not liable really like it's a bad accident to you were drunk in. There's an accident like that's the only thing I can liken it to where they're saying you can't blame your mental disorder if it was exacerbated by math. The judicial system determines whether or not you're insane, based on your ability to recognize whether what you were doing is, is right or wrong. Exactly. And she knew she's like, I, I had I had to save him from the world. She knew it was wrong. She ran from the cop. She tried to kill herself after but did she think it was wrong? The variety to think it was right in sobriety. She thought it was wrong. This is the thing in. That's where this like this mess implication changes things on math. She's like it makes total sense, a meth. She thought it was completely justified. Right. But he thought she Dave. He's crying in court. Like in, in the meth was her decision. Yeah. So you take a mind altering substance willingly, and it changes your cognitive abilities, still your fault. But it was also revealed in court that Jerry had, I mean, this is how severe her drug problem that she's accused can of injecting Kenny with mind. Altering substances took him to the hospital had I'm check for needle puncture holes. Like I mean this went on and on defense attorney really harped on these things, like how severe her mental illness was where she's she had a nurse checker son for puncture holes 'cause you thought her son was she thought her husband was injecting, her son with something in three doctors for the defense testified that Jerry didn't know what she was doing wrong when she kills Kenny and the prosecutor argued that she probably believed that she was going to end up getting the short end of the stick in regards to her son. So. So the prosecutor is arguing that, like she was eating desperate, because she was losing custody, and losing grip on her family. So. As a result of that she decided she was going to take care of the problem herself, which is a horrible way to put it, but lawyers are such people and on the day, that's when she took the belts, I don't need to keep going with what the lawyer said, in court so can was interviewed on the Dave, Jerry sentencing. And he said that by that point, you still could not bring himself to clean out his son's room or the toy room in his Chandler home. The doors were all pulled shut still cans favorite picture of Kenny holding a basketball hangs on the wall. Still taking the year before his death can coach two sons team that season. They took trips to Disneyland and to see world. They played soccer and football. And they like to watch meteor showers together, the Maricopa County judge sentenced Jerry Thomas to thirty five years before she'd be eligible for parole. He decided against giving her life, without parole stating that is clear to me that the defendant loved her son. It's clear to me that the defendant is living in a hell. Oh, that she's going to be stuck in for the rest of her life. Ooh. I just saw Jared react viscerally. How does it? Talk about this. So I, I didn't know what the sentencing was. I was actually curious to find that out today because I didn't know like I said the last memory, I have of any of this was his. Morale's. So seeing that in just seeing laid out like that, you know, in, in thinking about the, the haunting the spread to just as friends and people that knew him. I can't imagine being a part of the family and hearing, the judge said that and factor that into his sentencing kind of blows my mind that she's going to be living in hell in hell should be stuck in for the rest of her life. Let's. Dark. Can imagine stork I mean guilty when I do something really trivial? Oh was. I mean in that meeting like that. What is what I lose sleep over. I can't imagine right something like this can was wearing angel pin on his blazer and the Mesa detective is actually comforting him putting a hand on his shoulder. And after the sentence was handed down. A reporter asked Kenny what he was going to do now. And he responded quote, I'm probably going to go home and cry. The prosecutor said quote, this case has never been about guilt or innocence. It's about insanity and how drugs and mental illness, intertwine, and whether paranoid, delusions could be excuse enough to justify a mother, killing her son while he slept. Family members interviewed said nothing can fill the void that can his death left. You can't get over losing child said Carol Gallivan, who's KENNY'S aunt? I just felt she used Kenny to get what she wanted. I'm sorry, but that's not love. Off. During this whole experience as the as this case is working itself through the system. Ken senior was extremely vocal in the media in terms of the impact drugs out on his wife and his family. He said in one interview, she was my high school sweetheart. I loved her for twenty two years. She was the love of my life until she kills Kenny if she would have tried and gone straight. I would've loved her for the rest of my life. She killed my child. She stopped existing in my world, the person I love does not exist anymore and your members the last night. He saw Kenny that dinner at Taco Bell and Kenny got three toys, and they talked about the new Star Wars movie that was coming out, and as he got out of the car, he said, I'll see you tomorrow and we'll go see Empire Strikes Back. I love you. I know on choking up. I know what he's saying too, though, because this is nineteen ninety seven seven. So they were talking about Star Wars in pretty sure Taco Bell had Star Wars toys around that time with their kids meal, and they were gonna go see Empire Strikes Back. So they were gonna go see that. Oh, that's right. Infantry ministers? Price, strikes back was the remastered that's exactly what that line. Yeah. Damn. Yeah. That's. So side. So kency near hope to son's death would be a wakeup call. To everybody else on drugs. Any hopes someday, somebody will realize that this could happen to them, too, and that they'll quit using math. Ios parents will hug their children more. And because. You know, and tell them that their love, because you never know what's coming and think about, you know, being able to still say if she had gone straight. You know, she was loved my life until she killed Kenny. And we know that she was doing a lot of bad things before that. Yeah. But even to say that he was still willing. This is how much they're they're, they're the love that he had for her. But she was under this spell. I wanna say something real quick, and we made it a point in the beginning of the episode to mention her accolades, she was a college graduate. She had a career for a long time. They were country club members this is not. I feel like people when they think of people addicted in math, they think like you know, I don't know what they think, but this was someone accomplished, who is in love, who was married, who had a child who had family loved her. It is not a biased drunk gnome that doesn't discriminate. No, you try it. You're susceptible. And this is not an anti-drug podcast. But the, the number is even the ones I talked about earlier about what it does to your dopamine. Is terrifying. So I just want to like she was not kind of, in this demographic, that a lay person would consider susceptible to something like this. And lo and behold, it's like it doesn't really matter if you any everyone is so you have to be really careful and the has to be the hardest thing for Ken senior to kind of think about over and over and over in his mind where it's like this person assumingly inherently wasn't about person. No, they probably just sees her turning around in chemistry class like the love of his life. Well, you know, met matter, twenty two years ago like. Then the stall in the pain of all of that is like unfathomable, and then you also don't know when you think about as a kid, I mean you were a little bit more perceptive as adults on potentially. What's going on with people, but Jared knew this family, but didn't didn't have any idea? And even his mom, there your mom knew this family as and thought it was alcohol instead of meth and alcohol is completely different than meth which is why in, in this was the last kind of thought that I had on all of this was I went into this thinking that this was going to be a matter of, if I can't have custody of, of my son, then nobody can that was how I for the last however many years of my life, twenty two years of my life, had interpreted all of this, you know. So knowing that there was this whole other element in that, which is actually what the case ended up being about for the most part. Was the effects of, of math, and the I guess the, the behavioral response to something like that. And how that played such a big part and all I had no, I had no idea that that was even a element any of this. I think something really great to take away. I mean, if there is such a thing in a case like this is like things are rarely so black and white in. That's with everything. We've talked about we talk about like kind of the media shifting conversations in kind of making generalizations about cases and things like that. There. Everything is intricate, like human beings are complicated won't relationships. And we're talking about literally the most violent thing in the world homicide. Like there's no way that, that's a simple thing. There's always so many layers, whether that be mental health or just straight up psychopathy, or whatever it is. There's, there's always so many more layers to something that you can usually like describing a son sack Louis. So, you know, this case can't kinda came up in an interesting way German, I've been dating for around a year. We started a podcast around a year ago, and he never really even mentioned the story until kind of recently, and it's, it's just an interesting thing, where even when you don't think that you're connected to something. And even when you don't think that something is affected your life in a certain way. They're usually is something that has. Yeah. I mentioned in passing. I didn't I was like, oh, yeah, I when I was a kid and you were kind of like what? Yeah in. I had no details in. It's, it's I've been blown away tonight by how much stuff you're able to find out like. It was also interesting. Because when you first started telling me about this case, we tried to Google, there was literally nothing. There's nothing there. I don't even know if there's an article on it. Nope. At all. No, we weren't able to find anything and I started to feel crazy because I was like, I remember this so so vividly, so many parts of this. Yeah. And there was just no trace for me to go back in. So is kind of in the dark full on time on what even actually ended up happening, so Alexis, you're, you're a magician. Let me tell you. Like everybody's connected to something crazy in it impacted you in a way that you don't really understand. Yeah. In a way that still affects you today, because the first time they ever learned about death, and that is or had to come to terms with that. And that's a very complex process to even understand as an adult and you became an artist in New York actually listen to his music now. Yes, sir. Go. Download the Maine's new album. No Ville wounds. Thanks guys. I'm not in the music video music venues. Sure. Is it going to be a slender? Man music video. It is now. Hell. Yeah. Billy just walking around in the background. Imagine Billy on stilts of people on stilts in Louis in New Orleans. Take them from my legs. Eighth thought he was already on still. People coming out to be here. Yeah. Yeah. That's not what that why they were asking. Whatever. Okay. Well, I guess if anybody is listening to us for the first time that maybe medicine crime gone. Thanks for listening. We at the best time. We're the best time. We have a lot of new listener. So I hope this is a good episode for you guys to jump onto. And if you are connected to a crime or murder, or other stranger than fiction story, please write us. Hello at the first three podcast dot com, or at the first degree out, Alexis linkletter app Johnson at Jax at Jared moon, that would be on Instagram or or the Twitter. Nobody uses Twitter and Billy is you've so many followers on that you want people have a lot, how many forty? Oh, I had more than that deleted my Twitter. Seventy thousand are useless. Isn't the coolest person I've ever met? But yeah, sled endure DM's tells your story, no story is too small and no stories too small. Listen, we told the story today, and there wasn't a single Google article about it, Alexis, confined, literally anything Alexis the machine, Alexis the tank linkletter Alexa, the tank of information dot com link that are. That's a fun website. Okay. Well until next week, keep your friends close, but not that close. Gonna happy Oreo day be eaten. We have that can you burn the car happy, having aurea mcflurry in the fridge day? I'm Rita Foley with an AP newsman, Ed. President Trump formally began his reelection campaign last night in Orlando. He said he tackled illegal immigration and increase the number of available jobs. The fact as the American dream is back. It's bigger and better and stronger than ever before. But democrat rival Bernie Sanders says of the people in this country today, a working paycheck to paycheck, he says he watched the president's rally, which he described as full of lies distortions and nonsense. The president of the pilot's union at American Airlines testifies on Capitol Hill today, he'll say Boeing made mistakes with the seven thirty seven max two of which crashed overseas recently, an active shooter, scare the Honolulu, airport appears to have been set off by a malfunctioning laptop that popped and started smoking. I'm Rita Foley.

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Episode 35: The DeBeers

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Episode 35: The DeBeers

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree. I agree the first degree. They're supposed to happen in movies, not real life. From her. I got. You know, like that we're five and self defense courses. They tell you don't ignore like if you get that off feeling about someone don't, like you don't have to let them in your life type of thing I could tell something like off about Stacy me wonders if she had like close pardom psychosis, like Andrea Yates. Just as a little bit of a trigger warning for anybody. That is listening. We will be talking about very graphic things that involve newborn children. So if you have a or if you're a little faint of heart or you don't. Right. So we will be talking about crimes against infants. So if that is something that is deeply upsetting. We highly recommend proceed with caution. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree that true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter and also kind of across from Billy Johnson because we are recording in a new spot in. We feel in fancy. We do really like it here. It's nice stuff in the heart of Hollywood were, we are h house H club, H club, H club, h Clapp, it's like a super cool members only place in I am in. So what pants right around the corner from the capital records building, walk of fame on the blocker in also right around the corner from the frolic room, which is a very famous dive bar. That was also in L A confidential scrape bar. What day is it? Billy. It's national siblings day. You picked that one out of all of them. Yes. Because if you're a religious person of the Judeo Christian, faith, the first ever murder was a siblings murder. When Cain killed Abel. Billy loves the flexes, theology. Major muscle. Studies major. I was not trying to be a pastor anything. But yes, God knows you couldn't be a passive and is also would be a very interesting pastor quite honestly, probably one of the better ones, right? I go to that I go to that church. I would do. It's also encouraging young writer day, which is always nice. And it's national form animals day. And he forgot the best one it is also national sim, cinnamon crystal day Wassall, cross some which I like, but tomorrow, I got flaky pastry myself have you ever seen croissants being made? It is just like it's there, an I haven't watched that when I smoke weed at night. I'm going to Google it on YouTube mentioned on the YouTube machine. Yeah he go smoke weed when you do it now. But tomorrow is national chase darkness with me day. It is audio book comes out tomorrow. Everybody go by that there is a shadow for Lexus in either is not in the audiobook, but I I it isn't just. You know, I will I will actually we'll put it up on social and yeah. So if you like the stories about the Golden State killer about the bear brook murders. There's there's two big chapters about that. And also, if like, like we said, if you want to hear me, talk, and not have me be interrupted by Alexis and Jack for nine hours straight. I believe it's nine hours. Yeah. Three hundred. Oh, shut that takes you nine hours Tam? Wow. Well, it takes us an hour to get through like six pages of town, but that's mostly because we go on, really insane tangents. There's no tangents in the in the book grow, there should be the audio siemian Alexis like yelling at you. But yes, no, so yeah, you can get it at. Audible dot com slash chase darkness or at Amazon. The only two places that you can get. Oh, everybody go by it and. We're going to move on from that, and to. So, you know, we've been we've been twenty around at the idea of doing like true crime question. And then last week we talked about, I think it was we talked about Billy's beer carrying habits. It'd be his beard color of the day. Yeah. Got a lot of sun that week. But, you know, we've been talking us three about some of the reviews that we've been getting on itunes and mostly the shit talk. We've actually discovered that the reviews about me or the most music there. The funniest I mean listen, I'm used to like people talking shit on me. It's like it kind of just comes with the territory. People have been like trolling me, those sixteen years old. So it's not that funny anymore. But for a Lexus, it's a news new and nobody talks shit on Billy so that Billy's the golden child. He gets no criticism. I get shit talked him. Yeah. Not not on its own. It's all in the dark. Sir. But for this podcast, you the golden child. We get it. But for some reason, Jack Jack's Nin comments will be like Jack suck but mine will be like a paragraph long. Why? Mostly grieving habits. Okay, which have improved, but I'm happy to dry. You guys should be happy that Alexis his anxiety has calmed down a bit. I'm maybe she's using the right concoction of medication. Maybe I'm drinking the right amount because she's drinking threatening. I'm looking ahead enough there, I don't have any I'm not I'm not under pressure. But either way it will take your criticisms in stride. So here's one of the criticisms of the week and honestly, four stars that they've given us, which is nice says love true crime. Love the podcast. But I'm just wondering if Alexis is sucking on candy or something twenty thing. The sucking noises. She makes are making it hard to listen. I've been been listening for a couple of days but I just had to turn off because of the noises. Otherwise, I love everything else. Thank you, Gucci boy, two thousand six. Could you bring a hero? I don't suck on candy because I'm really neurotic about my teeth. Yes. I don't know what that noise is most have been from the if he's binging. That's. The beginning. Yeah. But I'm sure I do really annoying shit to everyone. I know. So I don't think you're in don't doubt. I'm that I'm not. I, I believe I'm annoying, as one of your best friends, I do not find you annoying at all. And I know you later than anybody. You really do. Billy. No. Billy just tunes us out. Are you here? Are you with us? I I'm with you. Yeah. I hear you power through till the new equipment phase. It was around episode fifteen. Yeah. I promise he gets better. I'm involving every day. I'm striving to do better every day. Yes. Take deeper problem. I will make noise for my whole life. So I don't even a human after all for sure. And we're talking about death and breath is life. So just remember that. Yeah, that could be worse one hundred percent. Right. All right. Let's jump into our case we're going to jump into the case. And this case actually takes us to January two thousand four and bizarre case started unraveling in a matter of hours after a man named Bob white Gart called to report that a child in his presence was not responsive. And this is in the general area of Rochester, New York. We'll get more localized as it applies, but child in his presence was not responsive was what the call was. So the police in EMT rushed to the suburban Ken dice neighborhood, which is his specific neighborhood in Rochester. And on the way my sumptious, they're probably thinking, maybe we can resuscitate this child. Maybe this is a situation. We can make better running. That's why EMT's are generally dispatched. But when they arrived, they noticed that. It was odd when they arrived at the home, they notice that portions of the house had been charred. And it looked like it had kind of been on fire. So they moved through the house, and they were eventually led to the basement and there, Bob showed them, this thirty gallon of plastic storage bin that had been filled with concrete around. What appeared to be the body of a newborn? And the child's evidently, was his infant, niece wrapped in a garbage bag. Entombed in concrete filled sort of been, and Bob Wichert later said to the media, I remember holding it up in the plastic. It looked like something out of a horror movie. I cannot imagine discovering that I mean, that is truly griffis something out of a horror movie, right? Like, I, I don't know if I've ever heard of that anything like that thing like that. So dr. Michael Foot arrived at the scene, and he pronounced the concrete and to MD baby dead at ten twenty p. I'm on the scene. The police learn that the home that they were called to is actually uninhabited due to the fact that it was partially burned down the people that had lived there before relocated to a nearby town of Farmington, Bob guard explained that he had come to make this awful discovery. And he actually had been asked by sister. Megan MacLeod to take a closer look at the contents of the garbage bag that she had found days earlier in the former home of their sisters Stacey beer. And she was living there with her husband, Brian, and mega McLeod again, Bob sister. She makes the initial discovery and she takes a hammer to the concrete and funds the bag with what appeared to be covered like a cloth covering. And in what she at first thought was paint, but she later learns it was blood, and that's the, that's the thing with blood, particularly when it's older blood, it's going to be darker. So to look like, you know, the red blitz kind of. Kind of Brown black Brown, so Meghan, meet this made the, this initial search because she intentionally went poking around after getting suspicious of Stacy. So Stacy hip been pregnant the previous year, but no baby came out, like, where's the baby? She said she was pregnant, I everything was going on. And then no baby. Be mature materialized in never. I don't think Shieffer said anything not pretended like she wasn't pregnant, right? Right. Hi. My name is Jason. I'm twenty nine I live in a big New York, so I'm after the beer in the early two thousand when my family we've moved to the neighborhood what it's called. It's thick. Themes dough haven because all of the streets are named after like fear like buckskin white tail antler. Yeah. I was like thirteen is the early two thousand when I met them, I knew their two children and other specs for their privacy. I'm not gonna stay there. I met one day when only when I was out walking my dog named brulee. I just happened to pass by the house and say, hi. My name is Jade, and type in the neighborhood where he assaults interacted. It was mostly the kid. The parents were. Were other at work all the time or kept on fell while doing guard for, but, you know, people would say, Hello it. You sound Hello. And people like you pet their dog. If it was from. All right. So let's talk about the couple that we've that is kind of at the center of this, their names are Stacey and Brian de beer as they're married. Couple Stacy's thirty years old and Brian is thirty two years old. And they had been married since nineteen ninety-five, and they have two daughters aged six and eight in the pair had been together, since they were twenty two and twenty three Brian graduated from a local hanalei high school in one thousand nine hundred and then he worked, various jobs, and he eventually was doing just contracting work and became an independent contractor. And Brian devere had essentially kept a relatively low profile before the police were called to his house that day. So. Yeah. During the summertime when I was thirteen when school wasn't in session, and no circulars or sports or anything to worry about we would hang out in each other's yard basically, like a whole. Mess of a twenty this would be, for example, the house, during Halloween time were a bunch of people from the area would come to because it was a huge development. So a lot of kids and stuff. So as far as the debris house outside, there were like a bunch of kids toys, in, like squirt, guns and stuff like that. There's nothing worse than getting older and feeling the signs of aging affecting. You are you experiencing a loss of energy trouble sleeping, sagging skin or deepening lines and wrinkles. You probably are because we're all just getting older every day. 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So Bryan kept a pretty low profile, but his name was super notorious to the family of a seventy two year old woman who was killed in two thousand one when he rear ended the truck that she was riding on canvas lake road. He struck her from behind, and it caused the car to hit a tree and flip over the crash claimed Patricia Northrup and critically injured. Her husband, Donald Brian was convicted of traffic infractions such as speeding and following too closely. And he served fifteen days in jail, but Stacey had zero scarfs on her record. So as far as Stacy goes, I interacted more with the husband because he was outside more. She stands side, the house there. And she was also the type of parent, like if someone's dog keyed on the lawn she would make you rent both par- the lawn off with the host of the grass. When you know go bad, and you could just tell that something was off about her. They I'm five eight. She's like unless they five six. She had long blond hair vakman, no glasses run to work contact. She's looked put together yet floppy at the same time like she would wear dress clothes, but there'd be like they all over it. The Bryans of your teeny was polar them me. He has short hair clean, shaven face in overweight, and he'd be the typical sad where like four teams Turks than jeans, or like khaki short acres something like that. Brian was more to hang out with the kids than he seems like a cool guy and I didn't get any bad five from him. But again, I could tell something like off about Stacy. From her. I got, you know, like that we're five and self defense courses. They tell you don't ignore like if you get that off feeling about someone don't, like you don't have to let them in your life type of thing, but she wasn't really a pleasant person though. So needless to say an investigation into these, deceased infants starts right away, and they go straight to the home, where the De Beers live now to go and talk to them about this, this discover that they had in the basement of their former home when they get there, they immediately want to search this house to, and they come through every room and right, when they think they've they've, they've gone through everything. One of the officers makes an unbelievable discovery in the homes garden shed, and it's the remains of a second child in a pale. Also in tuned in concrete. When I came home from school one day, there were hop cars everywhere. And then later that day my friend. Her name of Brenna called me to read the news. And it was like a holy crap. What just happened when I saw the news when I first heard it, I heard that they had found he babies who encasing cement, and that the two one, they had were getting taken how in the, the Brian and Stacy were arrested as far as reacting to the news, my mom great Dell then I freaked out that is something you don't expect from. I guess anywhere you love. You don't expect we are craft to go down like that. And, you know, and I feel bad for the two kids, I out to know over the summer. I was worried that something would happen to the two kids at some point, or maybe I didn't get the hint that they were being abused or something. I worried about that every day for over a decade. So upon this discovery the neighborhood in which the devere is lived was completely shut down. Now, the police had found two bodies of two infants, they had no idea if more would be discovered, or uncovered in what really they were dealing with. And they essentially at this point knocked on every door to learn what they could about this couple. And also at this point, it's when Stacy and Bryan were taken into the police station and separated their two daughters were put in the care of family members. So an autopsy revealed that each of these infants were determined to be full term newborns. There was no record of their births, which meant that they were self delivered at home. Both were little girls. The baby that was found in the second. Concrete thing how to crumpled up piece of tissue stuffed in her mouth. All right. So, so awful. So the parents of the two dead infants are in the interrogation room at the police. And here's what they learn. Stacey beer, eventually confesses to have having had eight pregnancies. And remember, she has the two living children's. Yeah. Kids were six eight and then these two that were just the discovered. And then now four more. Yes. So there's three pregnancies that ended in abortion, and she gave up one, baby for adoption, and then the two deceased newborns that they just discovered. And Stacey tearfully admits that she had put one of the children up for adoption, because she and her husband couldn't afford to raise two children. And then she describes in grim detail giving birth to the two slain children, one in March of ninety eight and the other on may tenth which was mother's day five days later, five years later, excuse me, in two thousand three another thing I want to mention is that when Stacy is arrested. She is pregnant. Oh my God again. Yes. How old is she thirty? So that was that was nine that would have been the ninth pregnancy. Jesus. Wow. It's fascinating. And we're going to get there. So. Stacey essentially said that both of the children. Had been breathing and making sounds before she wrapped their little bodies in cloth, and plastic in they died when the first one died, she explained that back then she had told a social worker that she was very overwhelmed with raising two toddlers, and panicked, when she was about to give birth again. She ended up delivering that baby herself on the couch. And when asked why she did not put the others up for adoption after she had put one up for adoption. She said she didn't know and she didn't know what she was thinking and the infant girl. The first one was born alive. But again, she said she wrapped it up and put it in the basement, because she was scared. And at that point, when her husband came home, Brian. She told him what happened, but the baby was dead. And then she said, you know, Brian worried I would go to jail, and we thought we should have the baby. I got. So she's continuing according to a statement while they're to alive children's slept upstairs, Stacey, and Brian, put some concrete in the bottom of large white bucket, put the baby in and covered the baby in concrete. And she said that I never meant from my life, TB so out of control. I just wanted the best life possible for her to older children. I'm sorry. It seems so trivial. I'm just so tired of everything. But I'm so glad that it's all out in the open. I never meant to hurt Brian in the kids. I don't wanna lengthy drawn out trial just want to plead guilty and end. So she is really just, he's talking about I don't wanna hurt Brian in the kids, meaning here to told her to older children that are still alive. And she's not talking about these other two children that she murdered. So Brian has asked about all of this, and he corroborates what, what Stacey story. And he tells police that, quote, we decided to place the baby in a five gallon, bucket, and pour concrete over the baby. It was my idea to do this. He said they kept the bucket in the basement, hoping to give the infant a permanent burial someday. And then that's also something to where it's just like you got this baby in a bucket. How do you not think about that every day? It's just sitting in your basement. And like, oh, so nice that you want to give it a proper burial, a great. I think what we haven't mentioned yet is that also one of the babies both of the babies apparently were delivered at this house that burned down. They only brought one right over bright. Because one was discovered in the basement of, of the burnt house. So in the other one was in the shed ranks. So the only brought one with them, and it's just so fascinating like the things your brain is doing to make these decisions. Yeah. Like why one and not the other in like maybe they will will. I think this is this is coming up, but we might as well just get into it. Now is that apparently Brian? Knew about the first one and he helps. But the second one I guess she said was stillborn but it's a lie. She killed that you thought it was stillborn. Right. So maybe in her head. She's like, I'll leave that one that, that represents, like me. And my husband are in together on the on. He knows the truth, and, and I'm gonna psychologist so don't crucify me in this. But I mean, just common sense, kind of right? It makes me feel that way where it's like if your partners in on it with you, you bring it, it's not as much of a. Taboo, theme to have in that house, even though it's horrific it's could not be more because because if you have somebody with you there, then that becomes your new normal. Right. That's you. That's your normal and the other person knows it as well. And our normal is we've murdered our child and have them in the basement, which is sick somewhere Smith we're in it were team on like these kind of cases always blow my mind where it's how you find somebody else, like it's crazy enough for one person to be capable of doing something like this. And how do you find somebody to go along with what you are doing? Well, I sort of gets in this situation only, I'm not saying it's okay, but I'm saying like Ryan comes home. Stacy had this, baby. It's dead. It's downstairs, she's hysterical. He's like, I can't have my wife go to prison like no one knows his baby exists. Like let's say we lost it and get rid of this. Problem right now. And it's he doesn't think it's ever gonna come. He doesn't think he's ever going to happen again. It Lord knows what she told him. You know, and I don't know I can kind of see it in this because it's not really a real person to him, yet, where it's like they're real their adult children have personalities and names. And I think I think I don't know. I've never been pregnant, I don't know. I don't know what this is like, Billy, maybe you can win I've ever been pregnant either here. I am a father. Yeah. No. I think it's just. It's, it's the, the ideas that, that he was that he was trying to rationalize this for himself. I think was saying who's gonna take care of the, you know, like this is a mother. Maybe she was a good mother or whatever. But remember in who's gonna take care of it. This eight year olds if they don't find if they actually went and did a barrel. We're gonna talking about this case, the fact that they the only reason we're talking about this case, because they found them in this house right in this burnt-out house. So they did it twice. Yeah. The only reason why we're talking about that, if he actually did what they said he was going to do, and actually take the bodies and actually give them the what he what he said was a proper burial. We would not be talking about this. It would be done, and they would have gotten away with it. We talk about some scary stuff here on the first degree. But when it comes to something as important as your family's safety, you need real protection with one of our favorite sponsors. ADT real protection means not having to be your own twenty four seven monitoring expert because ADT has the best in class monitoring professionals there for you at times when you need it, the absolute most real protection means having a safe and smart home. Custom fit your lifestyle with everything from video doorbells. Surveillance cameras that stream to your phone smart locks in lights and carbon monoxide and smoke. 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Alexa, isn't the only one with breaking news, make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news minute, if you like the first degree you're going to love showman's with Kevin mckell and Jenna, hush quits on podcast, one on the lady gang network during the former gleese ours and best friends is they interview other dynamic duo about the wild ups and downs of balancing a relationship on set. Download new episodes of showman's with Kevin mckell Josh quits every week on podcast one. most of these cases, go undiscovered. Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Most of these, I mean this happens all the time. But that's what I'm wondering. It's like why why what do you think like the reasoning is for them to have just kept them? I don't know. No, I don't think I think, personally, I like, do you think it's they don't want to acknowledge it any further to, to move it or it's like as it looks some sizing thing, she's not a sociopathic think she's ill sick. Yeah, I think you have a lot of mixed. Feelings is so you just kind of our paralyzed and use of it there and ignore it in I was reading about this kind of crime. It's like Neo Natal side. It's when babies are killed in the first twenty four hours, one of the most glaring characteristics that these offenders share is passivity, your passive, your pass about the pregnancy, you or you deny it. You never wanna like confront what's happening. So you kind of just ignore it, until it actually happens. Ending you north. You see it with younger offenders, who, who commit these, these acts calling them offenders is so hard, because a lot of the MARTINI, Gers, what confused and scared. So I don't even want to say that there's a really famous case where she a girl gave birth at her school in the went back to prom during prom, she didn't even look pregnant. It's not real. That was in there in total denial in that. They don't even believe that babies alive. They're like, oh, it was a miscarriage, but they really believe I can see. I again it's like you don't understand it. But it's like I can see that for a way younger person. But somebody that has already delivered. That's the thing. Will you know what these children you already delivered? And you have a six year old and an eight year old at the time. But yet you've seen what those things turn into. They're not just some like intangible alive. Nothingness. Absolutely. And. We'll get into we, we do learn later, a little bit more about Stacy and her frame of mind, but to reset in recap, where we were so Stacy's interrogation and she described the police before the circumstances surrounding the first birth in the first baby. So she did move onto the second baby who was born as Billy said five years later on mother's day. And she said that she delivered this baby alone in the living room swabbed its mouth with a tissue in unused kiss kitchen. Scissors to cut the umbilical cord in, according to handwritten notes of the investigator, who conducted the interview, Stacy said the baby was alive, I panicked, I wrapped the baby in a cloth and plastic bag and took it out to the shed. Days later with her kids in the car, and the infant's body in the trunk Stacy allegedly brought. You know, water and two bags of concrete, and she dropped the kids off at her mother's. And then drove from location. She said, I took the baby out of the trunk put concrete in the bottom of the rubbermaid tote, put the baby in the middle and fill the rest with concrete. Put the top on the tote and sat down to gather myself, and, you know, eventually this tote ended up in their shed. So this is the point where Brian in Stacy's stories start to differ. Brian tells police that he got a different story in relation to the second baby. He said, she told me that they rushed her to strong Memorial Hospital, where they deliver the baby, the baby was still the baby was stillborn and the cord was wrapped around her neck. He said he believed his wife, and when she told him, the baby was born still could not be revived. So she, then that's means she did the same. She did that alone with the read. Yeah. So let's talk about how these crimes are classified. So this particular act is known as Neo natives side, and it's as Alexis was talking about, it's when a murder is committed within an infant's first twenty four hours of life, and these types of crimes, begged that question in a country, where abortion is legal and most states have safe haven laws permitting, the no questions asked drop-offs of unwanted babies. Why would a sane mother ever resort to killing her newborn child, especially? As we were saying a mother that had had already delivered birth and was raising two other ends. I'd put children up for adoption like knows. Literally everything, right? Any possibility? Absolutely. So back to what was Billy was saying about Neo Natal side, and extremely conservative estimate puts the incidence of new native side in the US at one fifty to three hundred annually. And as we said earlier, there's no way to know how many times this happens. Yeah. Especially I mean, most new Nate aside. Commissioners are under twenty under twenty five like college high school, and they don't show. And it's his fascinating thing in their studies about it. Where if they don't believe they're pregnant, they actually don't really show really. Yeah. So these girls really psychological. It's all of it, it's like I feel like you lean into it, when, you know you're pregnant, and you're embracing and you eat more new, eat more, you're taking your needle Natal vitamins, you're doing all this stuff. Yeah, they're not doing any of that those things then you know there's a reason why you're taking the falcons. Yeah. They're probably dress. To conceal it like you a lot of these in lot of these cases. No one had any idea. They weren't showing this one girl that I referenced in the prom dress was wearing a prom dress did not look pregnant. So there's no really way to know how many happening year. But researchers for decades have studied mothers who kill their newborn babies and in the process of found sufficient similarities between cases that's you know, this behavior is kind of considered a syndrome and experts say that harming the child is not something these mothers anticipate doing once they're thrust into the situation of having to handle alive childbirth on their own. They panic they act impulsively. They want to pretend it didn't happen. Right. And I think a lot of them like I said, we'll be like this isn't this isn't real this baby's dead. This, this isn't a baby. This is God knows what, what their brain does when they're freaking out to that degree. So this is actually a book by Cheryl Meyer and Michelle Barumun called mothers who kill children, and the book notes, quote, neonatal. Seidel behavior is often influenced by relatively intangible factors, such as emotional ice. Isolation and perceived lack of resources, then by stereotypical indicators like race or financial standing, which is interesting because you see that a lot in suicide as well. A nineteen ninety-five report on psychiatric law from the National Center for biotechnology information. Reported that Natal homicide rates were lower in the ten years following Roe v. Wade, and that Neo Natal side is proportionately higher in rural areas where abortion may not be socially acceptable or readily available. That's not a shocker shocker at all. So as far as Neo Natal, had goes, it's considerably more commonly committed by mothers than fathers, according to the same study that Billy referenced, I'm not gonna keep repeating that. But between nineteen seventy six thousand nine hundred seven. It was a term in that mothers were responsible for those deaths of children during infancy while fathers remark likely to be responsible for murders of children, eight or older. And I thought that was very that is really interesting. Yeah. So ninety percent of new NATO ninety percent of neonatal Seidel mothers are twenty five years of age or younger which actually puts Stacey in this very odd ten percent, category, and less than twenty percent or married, less than thirty percent are seen as psychotic or depressed. And interestingly or not so much, not maybe not surprisingly, the US ranks first in homicide of children under age four zero rights, forty five percent of all child murders occur in the first twenty four hours of life. Yes. And criminal psychologist, Philip j Resnick is actually the man who coined the term Neo Natal side, and he conducted a massive study on philosophical, which is the murder of children over. Hall. As far as her having so many kids, not stopping. I'm glad she felt one up for adoption, I suppose, but it's still very messed up situation. And I just like there's so many people, I know they can't even have one kid, Harvey wonders if. Yep. Like postpartum psychosis like Andrew gate. I don't think she was born evil. I think she was born good. But in high school of, we're talking about this, and I had a musical director at the time. She's like, yeah, I use Stacey in high school, and we all knew her parents viewing. So I think that shaped that partially shaped her into who she was was being abused then not getting proper therapy, or dealing with it as far as like having compassion for her. I chew it's been abused. But I seek therapy. And, you know, I stayed out trouble and shit. So a one little I understand how she became the way she became but I don't have empathy or compassion for a person that perpetuates the cycle. We don't know what kind of abuse Stacey suffered, and we tried very hard to get that information. She pled guilty. So there wasn't a trial. So we don't know that didn't come to the surface, but abuses interesting when you're talking about this situation because Stacey is in that kind of outlier demographic of women committing, neonatal, generally, it's younger, you know, she's thirty she has a partner usually they don't have partners. Yeah. Usually, they don't have kids and other kids. Exactly. And so it's her situation is not normal are as. The circumstances surrounding, yes happening. And I'm sure abuse has something to do with it. Do I mean, you gotta think because she had the option. She knew what the options were cheese or on shit. She had gone through putting a child up for adoption. She had an abortion. She had an abortion. He had the children, she's literally done everything that you could do, and you have to think that maybe and I'm, I'm not anything way of giving her an an excuse. But were those processes incredibly traumatic for her that she decided to do this instead, super less traumatic? I mean that's the. Traumatic thing. No. But speculating on. This is fascinating and everybody listening. We're not psychologists. This is just our commonsense speaking where we're trying to hurt us three normal humans wondering what the right in trying to understand. I mean Billy has kids Jack and I don't but we understand. Life awale. Yeah. We're like, yeah. Enough to know. Assume we would know what, what to do in this situation. I don't know. But I don't know what kind of abuse she suffered. So it's hard to comment further. Yeah. But presumably it had something to do with it because it's related enough. Yeah, of course. As plummeted Ben abuse. You know, I say going if there if you're a situation, you can't just go out and take it out on the world. You gotta deal with your shape. It takes time. But it gets better. Not okay. You go in her other people and lashed out at other people. Every car comes with its share of stories. I have a nice little ding in my bumper from one. This guy hit me at a stop sign and decided to drive away. I also have coffee stains all over the floor of my car from when I tried to eat breakfast while driving. It's never a good idea. And we'll you can't put a price tag on your story is now with truecar you can at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell or trade it in, you've heard me talking about truecar before they're amazing. All you have to do is go to truecar simply enter your license plate number, and watch, how your car's details pop up, then you answer a few questions. Do you have navigation and a moon roof watch as they bump up your value? If you have high mileage, you knew that was already going to cost you. But now, you know exactly how much things your wallet. So you can plan ahead. Once you're finished you get a true cash offer sent to you in minutes when you can take to your local certified cardio alert to cash out or trade in. So when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car. Check out truecar today and truecar cash offer is not available in all areas. So what's, so they were both arrested. Yeah. So what charges were they facing? So say she was indicted on four counts of second degree murder in connection with the deaths of her children, and Brian was indicted on a charge of hindering prosecution by helping her dispose of one of the bodies in nineteen ninety eight they both pled guilty at separate separate arraignments Cici told the police that she doesn't want along trial. She just wanted to plead guilty and Brian said that he was sorry for what he had done. So it didn't look like either of them. We're fighting this. They're super-most remorseful, and like taking full responsibility, right? So Stacy was held without bail Brian's. Bail was set at seventy five K and it convicted Stacey was facing up to twenty five years in prison. And this is a sidebar, but during all of these criminal proceedings. Brian actually files for divorce from Stacey. Stacey is eventually sentenced to thirty years to life in prison for killing their newborn less than a year earlier. And for killing the second baby girl in ninety eight Brian is convicted of hindering prosecution for entombing one of the two babies in concrete and he was sentenced to the maximum and the maximum was just two and a third to seven years in prison. And Stacy is now serving out her sentence of thirty years to life in prison. So after these sentences were handed down Stacy's family talk to the media, and they essentially believe that Brian had a lot more to do with all this than he claimed and was actually blamed for so quote, it's just a bad deal. We knew he had more to do with it with, there was only so much they can do said, Bob, y guard, who is Stacy's brother, and he at this point has been a strange from Stacey like after the legal proceedings had gone through. I mean they kind of lost touch because I think it was probably a horrifying situation. And Bob continued, he said he is put a hurting on a lot of people and their to their children six and eight year old children ended up with Stacy's mother and were placed in their care ever since the day they had been arrested so sad. No. Oh my God. Like I can't even imagine. So after brands conviction he ended up. In prison, and he got denied parole twice both in two thousand six and in two thousand eight and in the ruling board members who reviewed his case called his actions heartless, cowardly and heinous, and he was then released from prison on September sixteenth two thousand eight and so his release was not met with joy, but he gets out in two thousand eight after serving two-thirds of his sentence in the state law. Mandates that prisoners be released at that point two thirds if they've behaved while they've been locked up even if the board of parole recommends otherwise. So within a day of his release, he has to go to the New York state division of paroles, Rochester, office, you remains under their close. Watch until January sixteenth, two thousand eleven which is the date, that is prison sentence would have timed out had he served all seven years. As far as having a weird feeling about her feeling right about that. My gut feeling is typically. Right. And I'm glad I know not to ignore it. It's I feel really bad for the children in this case, though, 'cause I don't know what their friends found out or what was to them growing up. I just hope you know they were able to get in therapy. And, you know, like we're played with decent family members and stuff. And I actually just hope that mom never hit paroled. One day he did. I think like Bundy. Sociopath and burp. Her husband help, I think it was. He didn't outta love. But also at the same time with the pick. No. Because again, I am the type of person that would have gone to the cop, and I would have left that relationship and taking the kids, because that's me. Yeah. That is a dick mood do. I mean, nothing describes that better as a dick move than a dick move. It's the Dickey's move that ever was and like dick moves put describing up thing prescribing. Stacey as a sociopath, relating her to Bundy, and then just saying for Brian to hell. That's a dick move. It's an understatement. It's an understatement for sure. But listen Jaden is being really nice. Yes. Ryan was his favourite of the two he, he did hang out with him more than with Stacy. And I think Stacy's just not. Well, really like, you know, she wanted she cried, and she said, I want to plead guilty and, you know, that's not, that's not like a sociopath sociopath thing. You're right. You know, I think I mean, I think at the time again, it's this, this idea of like passive. I totally understand what that study was talking about. It's like you are so scared to. Front. What's happening that you just and I think it is a little wellness. Yeah. It's like putting blinders on him pretending. It doesn't exist. Exactly. But you know, could she? Could she do a horrific heinous like strangling of a person? I'm not sure I think it's just, you know, it's for her. It was passive. It's like it's an infinite can care for self. If I put it over here, it will die. What's all your to kill an infant than it would be to kill less violence? But yeah, but an adult adult or, or a child, that's the only acts. Yeah, there's less connection from the craziest thing about this case is the fact that she had kids. I've heard those stories like the girl at the prom. I've heard the stories of teenagers that go to the bathroom during school, teenage athletes, have an baby, the baby. In the toilet put on the trash, can you hear those stories? This was a woman who had already delivered birth to two healthy children, had also done. The two things that are the option the options, which is a, you know, she had an abortion, and she also gave a child up for adoption. It's just there's something there, man. I mean it's strange. Well, it's like do we want to have that little discussion about if like how you're talking about that? She may be addicted to being pregnant. I mean, I think just we were talking about the abuse. And I was I referenced the Diane downs case. And if you guys don't remember, I had to watch a twenty twenty on it that just aired to remind myself, but she essentially was convicted of murdering her two children because she was dating a man who didn't want children. And then she as soon as she did this. She was like being questioned. She went, and she got pregnant again and it's like she just killed her two children and know the evidence was glaring, and it's like, I don't know, if they see it as like a form of control and I'm not talking about space, Stacey specifically in the situation. Yeah. But some women are low, I think it's a high like they love you tension of being pregnant, they, it's a part of them, it's sort of like a narcissistic thing. What we see this and this story as we restoring to tell it could've veered off into she, you know, she was pregnant, and then no baby materialized. And then it could've veered off into one of those stories where she goes. And she kills a woman. That was pregnant and actually takes her baby which seen before this, obviously, it was completely different because she actually was pregnant. Yeah. She. Yeah. It's fascinating. And I, I would love to muse about it, but I just don't want to be chastised for not being a professional but I do think I have an understanding of like. You know, it's part of you, and if you've been abused and you have this horrible relationship with yourself. You don't want these babies, but you're totally you're looking for love. Like I, I could see how. Psychoanalyst may see it. You had a horrible upbringing hypothetically, you keep having babies because you want people to love you. When they materialize itself, loathing. And you're like get it. It's part of me. I don't want it. I see now is not part of me anymore. Right. And I it's, it's this in this is again, I don't want to hear any DM's about how I don't know what I'm talking about admittedly. I don't, but I know they're speculating I admittedly, I do feel like I'm onto something which are you? Yeah. As a medical professional. Yes. It makes sense to me. I mean I someone who's been a health therapy. I know what they would say. I, I think I'm close. So, so. You guys. I know we talked a lot of disturbing things. But the truth of the matter is, is that these are real issues that women grapple with guess, unwanted pregnancy. It's scary to be young and pregnant and not know what to do or old. I mean, people find themselves in situations all the time where you never know what really is going on. Yeah. And I think the biggest takeaway from this is there are options, and I mean, we are looking at the safe haven laws because we don't know that much about it, personally, I haven't had to deal with it personally. But apparently all fifty states have places that you can drop off your baby. No questions asked. So that is good to know. And of course, there are many other options as well. So if you find yourself in this type of situation, think offer Google, and hopefully there is a better option. Yeah. And I know every state is dealing with their different sort of logistics. Yeah. And we have compassion for these situations come up because. No two are alike. There's no guidebook for this kind of thing. It's, it's scary and terrible. But we will say handling it the way Stacy handled it as probably not the move might be the worst one handle it, right? And the way Brian to. And said it was a dick move. Deck move. God. It. All right. Well, thank you. A Jaden for being our first connect first degree connection today. We really appreciate you and it was a very interesting story to tell, and I think that there is a lot of takeaways from it. If you are connected to in murder, or other stranger than fiction story. Please write us at the first degree on Instagram slide into our DM's, Alex's, linkletter, Appalachians and. Attrac-. Vanik. Or you can right? Into our submissions page or Email us. Hello for Ripon cast dot com. Emails pop up in my actually, there's something that's really weird with that E mail. That's on my phone that I only get notifications for Email. I don't get any and you read them before me, and, like, hey, Lexus. I didn't hear back from you. I'm like bitch, and Email me back, and it's because you check it first because it's the only thing that pops up as a notification might leaving work on that because I need, I need the notification not you doesn't incredible story. Do. And I never know about. Like I was Ted bundy's. Airing the phone waiting for response and jacquards at first, so I don't get us. All right. Well, you know, that's what you have to do, like a double tap, like DM, Lexus. Well, right. Okay. Well until then keep your friends close but not that. Happy young writer. That's right. It was a cinnamon croissant day happy, cinnamon, pastry day Crisan croissant. Chris. So Trump and trade. I'm Tim Maguire, the AP newsman is the Trump administration was draws terrorists and steel aluminum from Canada Mexico, both countries say, they'll lift retaliatory tariffs on US goods clearing a hurdle for a new trade agreement between the three nations. President Trump says the end of the terrace is good for all three countries, spin, charging us extremely high tariffs as much as two hundred eighty five percent or more for our agricultural products. The Missouri house passes a ban on abortions at eight weeks of pregnancy. Governor Mike Parsons, I've been pretty clear where I've been from day, one on right to live several other states have also passed so called fetal heartbeat laws. Today's action follows Alabama's passage of a Bill making performing an abortion of felony in nearly all cases Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has defied a subpoena from House Ways and means committee, chairman. Demanding six years of President Trump's tax returns committee, chairman Richard Neal says they're likely to go to court next week. I'm Tim Maguire.

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Jim & Sandy Melgar

The First Degree

1:32:12 hr | 3 months ago

Jim & Sandy Melgar

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on spotify apple podcasts. Podcast one dot com in anywhere else. You podcasts I've said it before and I'll say it again. Don't cut bangs while you're stuck board at home but you know what you can do is dye your hair with Madison Reed with Madison reading and get Gorgeous Professional hair-color delivered to your door. Starting at twenty two dollars for decades women have had two options for colouring. Their hair is either outdated at home color or the time and expense of a traditional salon and with Madison Reed. Women love their results. There's gorgeous shiny multidimensional healthy looking hair and this is game changing color that you can do it home and look if you just came from the salon and what makes Madison Reed Color. So unique that it's crafted by master Colorado's who nuances of light dark cool and warm tones to create over fifty five gorgeous multi dimensional shades. Find your perfect shade at Madison Reed Dot Com and I agree. Listeners can get ten percent off plus free shipping on their first color kit with code first degree. Podcast that's code. I agree podcast at Madison. Dash Reed Dot com again. Ten percent off plus free shipping at Madison Dash Re Dot Com with code first degree. Podcast US degree degree degree degree. I the first degree supposed to have it in movies. Not a prosecutor tried to say she like came up behind him supply. Tim like cut flushes next from behind. Something crazy like that. And then he turned around and loved her too much to put a hand on her basically he just let my mom stabbed him to death. Which is ridiculous. It's just fucking ridiculous. Welcome to the first degree that true crime podcast that you might end up on my name. Is Jack Panic? I'm sitting far away from Alexader. Farther away from Billy Johnson and I am officially ready for this distance. Podcasting to be over. But we're GONNA jump right into the day because I think that the Jodi Arias series was next level and we have an incredible case to give to you today and we want to jump right in with one banger after the next bangers bangers billy what day is it well I WanNa Make Jack Cry. Because it's National Rescue Dog Day. It is yes. Oh it's just my dream to rescue a special needs. Frenchie dog one day one day. Thanks for that day billy yes. It is also international clinical trials day which is more important seemingly now than ever. Wow these are pretty. Relevant days adopt a Fox. If anybody cares you no Alexis has developed a new obsession with Fox's and Fos Fox rescues that also the laugh like humans. They're the most interesting animals. They're like raccoon dog hybrids that look like humans and have just deep nece in there. Is this Fos Fox rescue that you brought me onto? They also rescued Chinchillas. That I've seen pop publicity great rats today pop up in their Fox and the Fox and the cats get along. It's like through living. It's like it's like a storybook it's what about the what about the hounds and there billy. Well maybe there should be okay. I'll let them know okay. Well that's enough of that. So let's turn on the lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be today's episode is about more than a case that simply stole the headlines more than a first degree sharing her story today. What we're sharing with you as a story of a daughter's worst nightmare in there are few things more painful to imagine in the world than the brutal vicious murder of your father but there are in fact worse things worse would be if you knew the killer was still out there and were still would be if your own. Mother was wrongly convicted for killing him. The Melgar family lived in Houston Texas. There is Gem Sandra whoever one called Sandy and their daughter. Liz Jim had born in Guatemala and emigrated into the United States when he was a baby his family ultimately moved to Houston Texas and he was raised there and in high school. He met the love of his life and his future wife. Sandra shortly after high school the couple got married and they supported each other as they pursued their respective careers. Jim was fascinated by Internet technology and sandy nursing. Eventually the family joined the Jehovah's Witness Faith and they started a family and had their daughter Liz by two thousand twelve. Liz was an adult. She was living in Europe with her husband and life was just moving. According to plan she was planning on starting a family soon. We we were living in England and we had just started to make a move over to Switzerland because my husband and I were looking to move to Texas. We were waiting for his work visas that we were slowly moving things over and we just made it back. Tanglin to celebrate Christmas with his family. And since my witnesses and have you know don't celebrate any holidays But at the around that time I had also had a miscarriage and I had just gotten out of the hospital so I woke up. That left in ten thirty eleven. I woke up and I see all these messages and my on facebook. And everyone's telling me how much they love me and how they're just they want to be there for me and you know if I need anything. I'm not hesitate to ask them all sorts of things and so. I figured that these things are just connected to the miscarriage. So I've seen that. Is this news story. I- timeline and The police tape around my family home. You know my mom is being walked out By the police my dad's been motored. Nfl ONLY NOW. So in this chaos. Liz starts frantically trying to contact family members. She can't reach anyone but then she finally gets through to her cousin. She didn't even have much to tell me. She didn't even know where my mother was. She told me that the police had taken to the hospital. Because was seizure and by the time. I finished calling all the hospitals in the area because I went to the paramedic school that actually services my area. I realized she wasn't any of the hospitals and started calling the police stations. But nobody knew where she was either It took a while to finally find her already heading of the airport and ready to go. You know by the time I found her but yeah it was. It was very little in br formation and It was all a big. Hey we were in a huge rush. It's really weird because I was kinda shocked but it still feels like it's playing slow motion in my head when I think about that. Time list finally arrives in. Houston and her cousin and her mom are there to pick her up. And it's at this point. That was still knows very little about what's actually happened. All she knows for sure is that our dad has been murdered. It was such a. I need to see that she was okay. You know she. She did have like a bruising around her I she had these like horrible like we win purple marks around her wrists per arms going towards her forearms and she had a lump on her head and she was alive. And that was like asked for in that moment you know to see her sitting in front of me and there's just kind of felt like it felt like a relief at that time but looking back now. I see the are nightmare was just beginning and while initially of course unsurprisingly. Liz's mother sandy is in no condition to just answer a barrage of questions about what happened. Liz Of course is patient. They're all grieving. They're all in shock about losing their father. Their husband and their slather devastated. But here's slowly with. Liz starts to glean about what's happened. Sandy starts to open up about her experience that night. So in order for us to properly lay out the facts for you you need a little background information. So in the winter of twenty twelve. Jim was five months away from retiring. Which was a huge accomplishment to celebrate and there was another milestone to celebrate that December as well was his parents. Sandy and Jim were celebrating thirty two years of marriage. These who had been together thirty two years. They'd been high school sweethearts. Which is something extremely rare these days as we all know and appropriately that a special night planned the couple had made plans have dinner at their favorite. Mexican restaurant and when they got home they headed to their master suite for a dip and their big Jacuzzi style bathtub which. I'm Super Jealous. That they had at this point or this night. That sounds so lovely of antic night for a couple celebrating. Their anniversary takes a really terrifying. Turn brace yourselves because there's a lot to unpack here. So here's how everything went down so at four thirty PM on the day after Jim and Sandy's anniversary Jim's brother Herman and his family arrived at the Melgar's for family holiday dinner that they had planned weeks prior so this would be the twenty third of December twenty twelve when Herman his wife Maria and their daughters arrived. The front door of the Melgar's home was locked and no one was answering the door when they knocked. Jim And sandy also were answering their phones so Herman walked on the side of the House. He looked over the fence. He could see Gyms like half done home improvement projects. He had some tarps out. I mean he was always doing stuff like this in all seem sort of mom so but there was no sign of them in the backyard so Herman decided to walk through the garage so the garage door was open. He could see sandy silver car parked inside of it. There was a door into the home in the garage that entered into the laundry room. So the hope here is that it's open so it was open. He goes inside he then goes to the front door and lets his family inside his wife and his daughters house. The House is extremely dark. All the blinds are closed and suddenly as walking around sort of feeling out the situation. Bahir these muffled sounds in slowly but surely they start to realize that they are the muffled screams of Sandy. So they move from the house in. Herman runs to the Master Bedroom. Turns toward the closet in their. He finds a large chair propped under the doorknob of their walking closet. Which is right off. The bathroom in this chair is jamming the door and keeping it closed. So we've seen this before and movies. You put a chair under a doorknob and it creates the situation where it's very very hard to open the door. So when he you opened the door he finds screaming. Sandra tied up in a black ninety her hands and feet bound and she is just hysterical so Herman and his wife Maria Frantically tried to entice sandy but the bindings were too tight and they couldn't get them loose at all the eventually find a pair of scissors and cut her free one. Sandy was tied. She got up and started calling out for gym shoes crying out for him she someone into the bedroom and turn towards his claws and they could see his feet sticking out of the doorway. Jim was dead. He had a knotted rope loosely wrapped around his chest and telephone cords were tied around his ankles. He was covered in blood with Gash marks across his neck and torso. There was blood all over the safe. That sat next to him and his feet were tied with cord from the phone. There was blood all over the walls and another thing worth mentioning so when we hear Sandy was in a closet. Jim was in the closet. They had the kind of sweet where there's a bathroom in a each had. Their own sort of master closets in Sandy was tied up in barricaded in hers. Jim was found with his feet out of his so when paramedics attempted to render aid to sandy she was sobbing and she was sobbing to the point where she could hardly speak to the woman trying to help her. In the field report written by the first responding paramedic she noted that quote syndrome remained in a state of shock and had periods of crying and that santer quote had no sense of time and lasts recalls a time of about one. Am this morning. She did not realize that it was evening time. Approximately fifteen hours had passed. Sandra was disoriented paralyzed in fear and sadness at the reality she just lived through. So that's what? The paramedics observed when they got there then. The police arrived. And here's some of what they saw when they entered the home so they noted that dresser drawers in the bedroom. And in guestrooms of the homework pulled out and rifled through pill. Bottles were strewn on the floor. Sandra's person while it had been dumped out on the master bed in the white comforter on the master bed was dotted in speckled with blood chairs and other furniture. In the room or bloodied and speckled splash of blood as well and when they enter the bathroom they could see the tub that they had taken a bath in. Sandra Jim and it was partially filled with water. They saw a knife sitting at the bottom of the TUB. They saw a white blouse floating in the water and they saw a green a hand towel also floating in the water and they noted about this. This knife there were matching ones in the kitchen indicating that this had been taken from their own kitchen drawer so on the ledge of the Bathtub was a bowl of strawberries and then a container of whipped cream. Like you get glick cool APP something like that. I don't brand. It was but it was in the container like that so when the police approach Jim his feet were laying outside of the doorway. Ashby said off the closet in the master bedroom. We mentioned how his feet were tied the red rope around his chest and they noted the safe next to him and there were smears of blood on the safe and two small cues to the safe for on the carpet right in front of it. Another thing they noted was that there was a mop and bucket in the Melgar's dining room and Sandra told the police that she used it to clean up after their families dogs and they had four dogs two of which were puppies so she basically left this thing out because accidents were happening so frequently which which makes sense all right so that's a lot a lot of information. So what the hell happened. The police had a lot of questions and they're hoping that sandy could help them. Piece all these different questions together. Sandy complained about this bumgarner head but she ended up declining to be transported to the hospital to receive an additional medical attention for it instead. She went to the police headquarters to give a recorded statement to the investigators. Once they arrived. Pictures of Sandra's body were taken. There were bruises all over her arms. There didn't appear to be any blood on her. They took swabs from underneath. Sandra's fingernails to test for DNA. And then she walked investigators through everything that she can remember from the night. Sandy went over there at anniversary plans. She and Jim got home and they drew a bath and the master. Bath Jacuzzi and they took about together for a few hours. They talked about the future and everything they were excited about trips a beach house they wanted to buy after. Jen's retirement all that they finished in the bath and it was noted that they for sure had sex. That's what Sandy said and sandy went into her closet. Sat Down and started putting lotion on her legs. It was at that time that they heard dogs barking. Which is their dogs. Jim grabbed a towel and put on. Sandy slippers. And eating lockdown. Half put them on. You know like a man will hit on a girl smaller shoes that you can just slip on so clearly. He was intending to come right back. It's like let me just go over here to see what's up and Sandy said. That was the last time she ever saw Jim Alive. The next thing she remembered were barking dogs again. Only now it was daylight. Sandy had no idea what time it was. She was in terrible pain. She tried to roll over but she had a double hip replacement and couldn't muster the strength to roll herself over. She started looking around to make sense of where she was. She was in her closet. Her hands were bound. Her feet were tied. She was wearing the same black satin nightgown that she was wearing the night before right and when sandy awoke she had no idea what time it was. She had no idea who could possibly hear her if she started yelling. Screaming was the only option and eventually after his she'd screamed for what seemed like forever. She did hear voices. She started screaming louder. And that's when she heard the voice of a brother-in-law Herman who ended up ultimately freeing her us for everything that happened between the time. Jim Walked out to go check on the dogs in the night before to when she woke up the next morning sandy couldn't remember anything that had transpired. There are probably many questions swirling around in your heads right now. I is nice family and why but there are. Probably some of you. Having listened to a lot of true crime that might be wondering if it really is possible for Sandra to have no recollection of what happened right. And if you think that Sandra's memory loss sounds weird to you. It's really not. There are so many different explanations for this type of memory loss. The first is the shock trauma from this experience itself. So humans have developed memory loss or psychogenic Amnesia as this defense mechanism and survival skill to protect themselves from intense psychological damage. A person may suppress traumatic memories until they're mentally ready to handle them and for some people this may never happen at all and in addition to the trauma and shock of the night itself. We told you about the Grand Mal seizures. Sandra suffered from these seizures interfere at the input of information in the brain and therefore interfere with the memory and can cause memory loss after a seizure extremely common to experience confusion and foggy nece as new memory. Traces are not being laid down in the brain as they normally are also Sandra seizures lead to a loss of consciousness and violent convulsions. They'd gotten so bad that Sandra had to stop working as a nurse which is a career that she was really happy to be in and she has a seizure. It would be common for her to sleep for a long long time afterwards and wakeup really confused and a lot of pain. I remember being a little bit and seeing my mom have a seizure and I remember You know being taught what to do and who to call and to call those people and you know I did. Cpr training at the age of nine. And I learned started learning how to drive a car in case you know something happened in. I had to take over something else. She was driving and there were times where she couldn't even think straight she wouldn't know where you know. What common objects we use every day. Are you know when she has a seizure when she has a seizure? She's out of it for good twenty four hours. She can sleep that entire time And she's just trying to recover from the the seizure alone in this makes sense given that she slept essentially until four. Pm than next day. That's an and having the White House one day was exactly if it happened in. You know we saw and heard what the paramedic center field notes. This woman has no idea what time it is what day it was. She had no idea. It's the next day and I know we've all had that where we accidentally take a nap. And you're not sure if you woke up the next day or if it's nighttime it's it's one of those it's it can be super disorienting and I imagine having a seizure. It's such a stress on your brain that of course you sleep I'm sure it takes a lot out of you and your brain probably does that to protect you in a way too so the police press sandy about everything. Her marriage her religion everything affairs. What could be going on between them. They wanted to know every single thing and throw the questioning. She started to notice the therapy there. Probings slowly transformed into a tone that seemed accusatory. And she's wondering yourself. Do they actually think that I did this? Investigators then told sandy point blank that our story was not adding up the Astros. Explain why she had bruising on both upper arms and to this sandy offered several possible explanations? She said that she bruises really easily. For reasons. Related to a chronic illness medication she takes can make brews and her physical mobility was limited due to our thrice and bruising can happen for a number of reasons. I mean I'm healthy. And I'm covered with bruises ninety percent of the time because I'm clumsy in malnourished strew. She also suggested that. Some of the bruising may have been caused earlier that night when she tried to the tub to use the bathroom in. Jim grabbed her arm to prevent her from slipping. So sometimes we have these bruises all of us people. Ask where you got it and you just don't really know and that seems to be what's happening here when asked about their relationship. Sandy said that she and Jim had a great marriage that there was never any abuse or anything and the interrogated her for three hours. She was freezing inside the room. She had a massive headache. Just remember the ordeal that she had just been put through and she's likely a great deal of pain both physically and obviously emotionally and like we said Sandy was interviewed and interrogated essentially for three hours on the very same day. Same evening rather that. She was freed from her closet the same day. She found out that her husband had been murdered. And here's a portion of that interrogation Roy that you get out time when he's getting stabbed bludgeoned multiple times like that died screaming thighs. Just I don't understand the laudable that he lost in wherever you encountered heating out of them before you did came knock. You think there was ample opportunity for you to hear something in the. You're saying nothing. I mean. You could have run in the bathroom. You hear that what I don't understand. Could you hear? Could you hear yellow for help? You hear straightening when he was paying. We know that he suffered a lot help me. I need your help me. Help me on this. Can you help me? I need you to help me. Sandra can you help me? Tiny helps hinder. Please help me screaming for screaming after screaming even hang on health. Help me Sandra Help Kelly rather than I got you. A lot of pain felt me. Sandra need help defender. Sander healthy be need. Help here doc. His I need help helped me. That's I need a lawyer I. I'm not talking anymore because you guys are just trying to torture me here. Fortunate on massive for him. Love your husband Yes. My husband gifts wants the course think you do? Did you kill your to do with your husband's debt now? Now if you're anything like me when you listen to the audio this interrogation evokes a lot of feelings and it resonates in some whether you are the true crime buff and you're thinking about what tactics detectives are using or your empathizing with Sandra. Somebody traumatize somebody who is sitting there and listening while detective is essentially trying to mock what her husband could have been saying as he's suffering and it's infuriating. It's curious and of course. There's a lot of unanswered questions still at this point in this case. But what can very clearly see here. Is that this was mere after. Sandra was pulled from this closet. They're already convinced that Sandra is the culprit and it seems like the police getting really really angry at her. She's clear on some things she's not another things and they're not doctors. They're detectives in clearly. We've gone over the fact that it's very possible given her medical conditions that she would not be able to remember everything particularly had. She suffered a seizure so they're frustrated but they don't understand the full picture at this point but then they ask her an interesting question that sometimes can make people seem guilty but I think it makes them smart. They asked if she'd take a polygraph and she declined literally. Taking a polygraph is never in your best interest if you pass it. They can't use it in court to exonerate you point less and if you fail it you just look super super guilty in. They'll start looking at you even harder and trying make evidence exists. That isn't even there. So if you're ever acetate polygraph just say no. Would any defense lawyer would tell you to do? It cannot help you. Okay SORRY BELLY. What were you saying? One of the investigators said to her quote. We're GONNA find out everything about you. We're GONNA find out everything about your husband. We're going to talk to everybody in your neighborhood. We're going to talk to everybody that you're related to. We're GONNA learn everything and quote and Sandy responded quote. That'll help you look somewhere else to. Because it wasn't me and quote by the end of the interrogations that detectives frustration at Sandra. Lack of memory was clear. So when investigators asked Sandra she thought had happened to gem. She said that she believed that. It was a home invasion and it had turned violent for whatever reason. She wasn't sure because she and Jim had absolutely no known enemies that she could really think of it all. She racked her brain trying to think of anything that could have led to this whole situation. She mentioned that Jim had been driving slowly the night before. And he'd gotten into this tense situation with a guy that was getting them on their way home and also she and Jim owned rental properties and there was bad blood with one of the tenants but she didn't really think that that tenant had any reason to take things as far choose remorseful about not being able to remember anything because of course she wanted the person responsible to pay for the crime. So the you know at the time I it had just been a breaking gone wrong and I couldn't understand why my dad would have done anything so cavalier is to try and you know maybe fight these cheaper. I don't know what and then you know got killed because my God my God was from a little country. He also grew up In Guatemala so there was a civil war going on when he was younger and he always that. If anybody ever tried to come at me for anything I ever got held up. Mug or anything. Just give them whatever they want. Nothing matters because everything can be replaced except for your life. We cannot replace you so to me. It was always so strange that he would do something over his possessions right so he would defend. And that's when I realized that it had nothing to do with that he he probably thought they were hurting my mom or thought something had happened to her when they hit over the head and it is easier or something like that and then and then he tried to do something but. I think it wasn't until he. He thought that maybe either live for endanger. But other than that. That's all I can come up with because I don't know who would want to hurt them. I just think that somebody got greedy. I think this was probably a a drug addicts looking for an expert Saint. He's being questioned in an interrogation room. But meanwhile the crime scene is being processed so the friends tax are going over everything and according to court documents quote when the first responders arrived they did not encounter the traditional hallmarks of a home invasion or burglary. There were no signs of forced entry. All the doors and windows were intact. This thing about there being no force entries interesting so there's a couple of things I want to talk about here. And this is something they kind of hang their hats on First of all if Herman Jim's brother was able to enter so easily through the garage presumably Intruder could've as well and not only that so there are a lot of crime scene photos available online. And did they say there's no forced entry but if you look at the back door of this home in these photos it looks like this door was pried open personally so I don't know where they get this but also many many many suburban areas people leave side doors. Open people leave windows in? It's possible to get and out of the house without leaving like a destructive obvious. Sign that you broke in but neither here nor there but court documents also note that no personal property appeared to be missing valuables were untouched and in plain view in dresser drawers were only slightly opened their contents undisturbed but according to Liz Jim and sandys daughter things were stolen from the home. Many things many many many things and she pointed all of that out and she was not listened to so I called the police and I asked if they wanted to speak to me because I used be a really big true crime fan and no I knew kind of what you know how everything played out when something like this happened or at least I thought and then they asked me to go to the home walk through it and make a list of any items that I thought were missing so I got drought in Austin. I went to the house to do just that and when I get there that the whole room had already been taken apart where Where everything had happened. It had been cleaned and everything. So what was that was in the living room? I mean everything was a mess. It was really hard to tell what had happened there. So I'm looking around and I go into the garage and I automatically noticed several Pulitzer messing the larger tools that he had. My Dad really liked woodworking. And so he. Had you know a lot of really nice tools to do that was but nothing was in there so I went to his filing cabinet because he took meticulous of everything. And I'm so thankful that for that because that made handling all of this so much easier anyway I went back there and I grabbed the manuals for the tools like wrestling and making notice some other things and I'm in the garage and I see this black and green backpack on floor and so I walk up to it and I see that it got my mom's xbox in it and I call them and I tell them you know there's a back year that has stuff in it. I don't think my parents would have left here and I see two other back and they're both still on the shelves and one on the floor of the garage and they're still halfway filled with random. Bits and bobs from the garage and the police told me that my God probably did that to transport tool somewhere or that. He probably got rid of the tools because they don't see where they could in the garage. Okay well they were here before these manuals making this up you know. Wh Why did you ask me to do this anyway? So they currently get the they only get one of the backpacks say they decided the other two were my dad's doing for whatever reason they take the one backpack They take some pictures of it. Whatever and they leave and the funny thing about that is they later. Tried to blame it on me and say I planted that there to make them look incompetent or to help my mom however that might help stop how that's basically it started and once that started happening. I knew that this wasn't this wasn't going to be. You know a simple shutting in case they weren't actually going to try to do any work you know. This was first show and they figured out who they wanted to dependent on how their job was going to be made easy and they just went with that. Meanwhile gyms autopsy had been conducted. He'd been stabbed staggering thirty one times to his hands and chest all to the front of his body. None on the back side of his body. There was a particularly deep laceration to an artery near his right thumb which had nearly come off during the confrontation and that was likely caused a lot of the blood. Splatter in the closet were. Jim was found so in talking to Liz. I actually learned that all the reporting says that it was thirty one stab wounds but she clarified that. Actually he'd only been truly stabbed seven times and the rest of the lacerations were defensive. Wounds and they were More shallow cuts. There are no ligature marks or images around. Jim's ankles. Were the telephone cords. Had been tied so all. This is happening news of what had happened at the House of the Melgar's started to spread and it was hard to miss the fact that something big was happening in their neighborhood. The coldest weather home was had been cordoned off and friends and neighbors gathered and traded pieces of information that they'd been able to glean from other neighbors. It was like a game of telephone. Most wonder the impression that deadly home invasion had occurred at their house. So those in the same neighborhood. Were fearful that this happen to them as well so the installed security cameras and they got floodlights and they're taking all these extra precautions at every turn they could right and so the police of course as they threatened to do in interrogation they were going to speak to neighbors they were. GonNa speak to every family member they were going to speak to everybody who Sandra and Jim new so what they heard were was that the Melgar's were quiet. They kept themselves. They had regular comings and goings. Their lives presented nothing out of the ordinary at a glance. The also asked neighbors if they had seen or heard anything. Odd on the night of the murder had occurred in one neighbor said he was in his garage working on a project until one. Am and never heard a sound and this is worth discussing because forget who did it. 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D. R. E. A. DOT COM physical Dr- com and. Add a tux touch of luxury to your home care. So Abby is in this information seeking phase of course they WANNA know about sandy and Jim's relationship. What kind of relationship did they have? You know when I was growing up. I didn't see a lot of PDA. My God wasn't like that you know he didn't. He didn't show that much at least one around me but then after all of this happened and I started hearing her friends talk about her relationship to each other even when they didn't know that I was around like that I could hear what they were saying. I realize how much romantic my dad was. And it makes me ache even more for my mom that she lost that and I just. I don't know I get all emotional hair but guess you see. It really wasn't so is he? So after. The seamless process for evidence were tested. And here's the culmination of what they found. There was no physical evidence directly implicating connecting sandy to the murder of her husband. There was none of Jim's blood on Sandy. There was no blood on. Sandy's close gyms. Dna wasn't under Sandy's fingernails and Sandy's DNA wasn't under chimps. In addition quote. According to court documents there was no evidence of blood. Transfer with removing bloody clothing or gloves chemical processing established. There was no attempt by Sandy to clean the sinks shower Jacuzzi. According to court documents is that we're hoping that's what they did. They checked the drains and all that but there was DNA found at the scene. That didn't match sandy or Jim. Male and female DNA not belonging to milkers was found in several key areas. There was also known male. Tna on the drawer handles in the master bedroom it seems so. This evidence was completely ignored just because it didn't fit the police narrowed so it really seems like from the moment. The police had sandy in the interrogation room. They focus their attention and investigation squarely on her. But there were other leads. That could have been looked into at least a suspect with a history of violence. Drug charges and robbery was reported to the police by one of the local news crews as behaving strangely at the crime scene that evening right and we knew that people who do things like this do like to hover around the crime to see the aftermath. So that's Yeah Ray where revisit the crime scene right so? The police do investigate the suspect but they do so by leaving business card of his door after two failed attempts to reach him. And that's where this investigation ended. That's it that's all they ever did and there was also a similar home invasion. That was carried out in the surrounding area with nearly identical Mo and it was never investigated for possible connections at all right and so relatively speaking. There was very little forensic testing carried out on this crime scene in they basically cherry-picked what detest in what take seriously for example blood photographed on the safe handle and this was a safe found next. Jim's body in his closet it was not processed or collected despite the police telling the family the contrary so the family had seen mistake had seen these smears of blood on it and had seen it there are prints on it and they said to the police over and over like you're testing that right. I mean these prints this blood. We should know who's it is. They were appeased. They were placated. Yes yes yes for testing but that never actually happened So the safe was right next to my dad when they kept it in a closet and he died on his car and the keys were usually kept in the keyhole of the safe. Because it was one of those digital keyboards where you put your code. And then if you've got the right code then you unlock the key and then you open. Let's say that you couldn't just enter the code and not have the key and you couldn't just use the key without the code in the pictures you see next to my dad and you see the keys. Who are so. I think somebody probably got sick of waiting or whatever they were doing. Whatever set them off and then once they killed him. They tried to use just the keys at the safe and when they didn't work they just throw them on the ground. 'cause there's no reason for them to be on the ground like that But there was also this of blood on the handle which I hadn't noticed until I got the safe to my house and in Texas and that's what I noticed the blood so I contacted the police and I you know awesome if they had processed the safe and they or if I should you know save it for them to come and get it since they missed the backpack as well and they told me they hit already processed. It was no big deal. Just CLEAN THE SAFE. Not a big deal okay. So I took him pictures and I asked my husband and Kleenex. I WANNA touch. It was too hard for me to deal with in court. I find out it was never process. Nobody even bothered they. Just lie to me. I I guess so that they wouldn't have to do more work. I don't know laziness either way they lie to me and told me I could clean it. Which is what happened. So that's gone. Yeah that was really difficult and when they asked the CSI why they hadn't process it they thought it would have just come back to my mom. Anyway which is funny so she didn't have any blood or cuts on her. Then there was the male and female. Dna Not belong to the Melgar's found in several key areas yet. This evidence was ignored as it did not fit the polices narrative and we want to remind you that sandy had no cuts no wounds no bruising that would come from beating and stabbing a larger adult to death in contrast. Jim Sustained numerous bruises. Oliver's body abrasions and catastrophic damage to organs that would indicate a violent struggle and this includes fracturing both I sockets and to other locations of Jim Skull and a woman of her size remember with her health. Issues would surely seem incapable of inflicting. I think it's worth discussing this. Just I think that's the most fascinating part of this case is they've made it a point in the medical examiner said this. All of his wounds were to the front of his body in this means right to the front of his body there on his wrists there on his hands on his chest or on his face torso that means he was not caught off guard. It's not like he has a giant wounded. The back thinking somebody smaller than him couldn't capacity him with a sneak attack. He was confronted head on and the idea that sandy has no wounds at all. Not a speck of blood on her not is not a scratch on her is immediately for me. I'm just like how do you think it's her knowing how. How sort of frail she is. And I don't mean that rude way but double hip replacement prosthesis of the hips lupus rheumatoid arthritis walks with a cane. It's like how did she confront hypothetically if this theory is what we're going west. How does she confront Jim overpower him? End Not get a single cut or bruise or scrape on her. You're saying that Sandy did this somehow. Without getting a single wound the prosecutor tried to say she like came up behind and supply. Ten like cut flipped his next from behind something crazy like that and then he turned around and loved her too much to put his hands on her so basically he just let my mom stabbed him to death which to me is ridiculous. It's just talking ridiculous. Well it was interesting too because I was looking at pictures from the crime scene. And there's pictures of her hands and looks like her hands had just gotten manicured like they chip on her nails. They were pristine way better than my manicures in quarantine right now like her hands were they were spotless. So I mean and we've talked about the fact that you know stabbing somebody is not easy. Let alone the amount of times that he was stopped. So this is not like a delicate crime or even shooting. Somebody could have been easy enough where it wouldn't create that many conclusions on your own body so it's just it's very hard to believe and as a woman just just seems difficult. It's really leaning more towards that that a it's almost as if these investigators watched a lot of true crime and thought you know what the spouse had to do it. The fact that they They went they jumped to that. Even though you often look for for physical evidence and there's so many things going against this person doing it not to mention motive. We don't have any motive. We don't have any The the means where are the means of of how she would? Actually do this physically. The only thing there is opportunity you know. The police ended up processing the scene. And we don't really know where their heads at because you have to know at this point. Listen Sandy are just completely in the dark. Sandy'S BEEN QUESTIONED INTERROGATED. A couple times lists has talked to detectives a couple times but then they sort of ice them out in not set their sort of just waiting like what is next. Are you gonNA catch the person who did this and expected to be kept posted or at least in the loop in terms of the status of investigation? But that did not happen so I. I'm not sure exactly what was done in that time. That no-one with question no files wherever requested from adopter from anybody. We're just waiting in limbo and I think this pace pass through to prosecutors hands until finally landing on the case on the desk of the one that we finally ended up with but We always got the feeling that this was just kind of being passed on or somebody was waiting for something that nobody actually wanted to take this to trial because it was such a bad case against my mom and then a year and a half past when Liz in San Diego surprise but my mom was living with my husband and I had just had my daughter and I just finished dropping him off at the airport and I came home. And you know we have mailboxes letter at the front of the neighborhood so I stopped to check it. Open the door. It had been jammed filled with fliers from Houston area lawyers. That wanted our business for our upcoming trial or for the case against us. And that's when I pulled out my son and looked up her name the Harris County district clerk website and saw that she had been charged with my dad's murder. That's it that's how we found out so I went home and I had to wake her up and tell her like eight thirty in the morning and tell her what she needs to call the lawyer and she just couldn't believe it she was just she just looks dumbfounded and I felt the same way. But you know it was like come on. We gotta get moving. We used to call her lawyer. We need to figure this there. She went and purchased self-esteem never was never arrested. Nobody ever called her. Let her know that they were going to be charging her that there was an arrest or a wine out. Nothing like that we. We were all completely shock especially her because I mean you would think that when someone is charged with murder that they're police usually come their house and put them in prison so they don't go somebody else but I mean. I'm not sure why they do that or even. Let us know that that was going to be happening. Then on top of everything else. The lead detective. Who Was Sean Rubin Carousel? He was forced to resign two years after the crime to to forging search warrants and a different murder investigation but when his office was cleared out. Evidence from the Melker case was found untested an incorrectly stored in a filing cabinet in his office. That's crazy Dan so it's like again. This is one of the big problems in this case. They Cherry picked what to test so they would find this third party. Dna that was untested and didn't align with anyone in this household in that was something they ignored and certain tests in certain evidence. They're like hey we'll document this or whatever but we're going to squirrel away and pretended didn't happen in. This is an example of that. It's like I don't know why there were out for Sandy. Whether they wrote for her not a fair trial means all the cards on the table. Why are you hiding stuff in a filing cabinet two years later we're finding it? Then the evidence itself is basically unusable chain of custody. Can't reproved it wasn't stored properly. If it's organic evidence like DNA skin touched in a WHO knows useless? It's been a filing cabinet for two years. Sandy's trial began on August ninth of two thousand seventeen. She was now fifty seven years. Old Daughter. Lives was the testifying witness as she was not allowed to sit through and observed the entire trial. We were ready to get this over work. We figured the time we lay our our case out there. Everyone's going to see for what it is. And they're gonNA they're gonNA come back with her being not guilty. Because that's the most I mean to me. It seems onerous but I guess I had too much face. The defense opened by criticizing homicide detectives as biased in closed minded for cutting corners in this investigation. So defense attorney Mac. Seacrest said to Harris County Sheriff's Detectives Interrogated Sandy Wall. She was hysterical after the death of her husband. They then taunted her for not helping Jim as he was being brutally stabbed quote. These two detectives made up their minds within two hours of getting to the scene. Then the marshal the evidence around their theory the prosecution opened with prosecutor. Colleen Barnett telling the jury that Sandra Melgar came under suspicion after. She gave conflicting accounts of what happened that night. Asser story quote unquote evolved while talking to the police and the prosecutor said. I don't know that I have motive here but there's no way anything else happened. She just brutally murdered her husband. So this is the prosecution's theory about how this all played. They claim that sandy had Lord Jim into letting her tie his legs with telephone cord. Perhaps as some sort of sex game and then taken him by surprise using a large kitchen knife to stab him to death. So they're using this court theory as a means to explain how someone as frail is. Sandy was able to overpower and incapacitate him because remember all of his wounds or to the front of Jim's body this is not a sneak attack from behind. He had all of those defensive wounds on his wrists right so that's not all the medical examiner testified and they said that on Jim's ankles there are no markings that would be expected from these telephone. Cords if Jim had still been alive and moving especially considering that he was naked in the cords were directly in contact with the skin so emmy pine that the telephone courts had been tied around. Jim's ankles after JIM had already died. So this completely contradicts the prosecution Syria about Sandy. Pulled this off. Remember Double Hip Replacement Rheumatoid Arthritis walking with a cane. If if these courts did not cause any impressions on his ankles at all it means if they happen to post mortem how do they explain how? Sandy incapacitated him how she had the opportunity to attack him with a knife and the prosecution. Serey directly contradicts. The EMMYS findings about these Lakers on Jim's ankles so the defense challenge the jury to explain how sandy would have no cuts no wounds and no bruising that would come from beating and stabbing a larger adult to death in contrast. Jim Sustained numerous bruises all over his body. Abrasions and catastrophic damage to organs that will indicate a violent struggle and again this includes fracturing both. I sockets and to other locations of Jim Skull it was a lot. And that's that a woman of her size and with her health issues which surely be incapable of inflicting so as far as the prosecution's theory on motive goes they alleged in in. You know in many many interviews. Coleen Barnett the prosecutor has said. I don't really have motive in this case. So we have to take take that we've to start there but with a could muster and if they had to come up with something they figured that sandy in their theory wanted a divorce but she feared being shunned by her fellow. Jehovah's Witnesses so Jehovah's Witnesses if you don't know are not allowed to divorce unless the spouse has committed adultery which. Jim had not done this theory. Liz says is just completely fabricated and her parents had truly a wonderful marriage and when he was in at work he was carrying from my mom. Whatever she may need and not only that you know. He was the breadwinner and he was the one that took care of the home and maintained it and it was his health insurance. That you know kept US afloat. you know. We were very close and and things were great. I mean he always took care of me and my mom a one time. He overheard me tell. My boyfriend has shut up or that. He was stupid or something like that. You know we were joking around. But he told me that I shouldn't joke that way. Because you slowly start to lose respect and eventually crosses over into your arguments and you know. That's not a very dangerous precedent to set and it's not something that you even want to entertain. It's better to just completely. You know to always be respectful. Always have respectful conversation if you don't agree with each other there's no reason to raise your voice or yell and I still miserably at these things in my own relationship so even practice what they preach for thirty two years. Is You know. I hope that I can continue to have such a strong and healthy marriage like like they had so sandy's defense painted a picture of this happily married couple. They were best friends. They were high school sweethearts and no one knew the couple to be a couple that would fight the prosecution that attempted to explain exactly the steps that sandy took to execute her plan quote unquote plant. The prosecution proposed that Sandy Killed Jim in the master bedroom. And then wash yourself off in the master bathroom. Clean that sandy left the garage door open on purpose that she could be quote unquote rescued by her brother-in-law Herman the following day and that she knew they were coming in this part of her plan and she'd invited them over this day for this purpose so while we're on the subject of Herman who remember is Jim's brother Sandy brother-in-law. What do they think so they would have kind of the most insight as far as the authenticity of? Sandy's reaction of finding sandy tied up. Do they pick up on anything strange when they walk into the House that day so the family that found my mom and dad that night or that they were my dad's brother the brother's wife and their daughters And they have been incredibly supportive? They're always checking up on us. You know we're here. They need is we need them. And they've always been very vocal about their support and reassuring to my mom that you know. There's no way that that she did this and they just they WANNA help in any way they can. Yeah he was there. He found him he he was there before anybody else got there and I feel like is he felt like something didn't add up he would say so and I know my cousins would definitely. My Dad always emphasize importance on family and trusting each other. And you know sticking together because nobody else would have the way families would. He was As we found out after he passed away he was including that held the family together. The yeah it was because the him that we had such a nice and we live I always I can still hear him always saying about all he ever wanted for us to have an I lies and have the things you didn't have as a kid and you know he just wanted my mom and be happy so to be clear. Herman had never doubted his sister-in-law's innocence. And he was there and saw sandy's organic reaction and he believes her fully. Okay then the subject and court shifted to the robbery aspect of the case so clearly the prosecution is claiming that this scene has been staged and they theorized that sandy stage the crime scene and as the appearance of a home invasion. Barnett argued that the drawers were actually neatly arranged. They weren't dumped. But Sandy's defense attorneys clap back and so that there were many items of value removed from the House as proven by Liz's account as well and the defense played out how sandy's hands were completely clean and this is not only of scratches or wounds but also of clean of blood and like we said before. She didn't even have as much as a chipped or broken nail and in response. The prosecution pointed out a cloudy. Fingernail ON SANDY'S RIGHT HAND. And they said that this is proof that she had used cleaning solution to clean up evidence at the scene which is be biggest reach another reach that region. Cloudy fingernail means. She used this cleaning solution even though they couldn't find evidence of that anywhere else so now one of the first things and one of the most glaring things about this case that I'm sure many people have taken note of as you've explained. The circumstances is that when sandy was found there was a chair under the knob keeping her locked in this closet and this is stuff we see in movies right. We see cheer under a KNOB. Get locked into a closet or how you get locked into somewhere. That doesn't have a lock on the door to me. It seems impossible for someone to lock themselves in a closet. This way. How do you wedge a chair under knob of closet door that you're locked in well the prosecution? Of course. I'm sure this is one of the biggest obstacles they had to take on but they decided they were going to come up with an explanation so in court? They had an in court demonstration and the prosecution showed how sandy could hypothetically tighter south up and they use a video exhibit to demonstrate this. They had investigator pretending to be Sandy. Quote Unquote Lock himself in the bathroom and wedges share under the outside door handle using a pillow sham to do it. The person in this video began by entering the closet placing a pillow sham on the bathroom floor with one under the pillow sham inside the closet in the other end outside the closet under the back two legs of the chair. So if you're picturing this. Imagine the space under the door. The pillow sham halfway in the closet halfway in the bathroom the legs of the chair of the back to legs are on the sham. Right then the person closes the closet door so that only crack remains open. They extend their hand through the CROCK. And Lean the back of the chair under the outside door handle. So the chair was tilted at an angle directly under the KNOB and so the two front legs were off the ground. Then the investigator brings his hand back inside the closet. Pulls on the end of the pillow sham from under the door and suddenly this polling motion drags Char closer to the frame of the closet and once the door shuts completely the chair becomes wedge securely under the handle as had been placed there deliberately by someone on the outside of the door so this recreation. You have to know and I think this is a fascinating topic in this story. In the story they found the ship. They found a pillow case in the closet. And that's what inspired this theory right so in in there was a rip onto the pillowcase. So Sandra's hands and feet had been bound by like scarves and pieces of cloth and things like that. And they found this ripped pillow sham in the closet with her and suddenly they derived their theory and I think brings have a bigger conversation though. Were we saw this in the staircase right where this guy who who basically came up with these blood evidence experiment expert witness for the prosecution right and his experiments quote ended up being the reason? Why Michael Peterson God new trial? Because this whole business of paid or hired expert. Witnesses is very suspect and I really do feel like this is one of those situations where we saw this in in a staircase where there's video evidence of them like over and over trying to get the exact result they want and once they get it. They're all cheering and La like happy because they finally got the exact blood spattered pattern. They're trying to achieve okay so here. I feel like the same thing happened. How do we explain these things in the closet? Let's come up with a theory about how she was able to do this. And of course if you try hard enough if you're Harry Houdini investigator. You're going to be able to figure out how to do it in which this really reminds me of like. You're you're explaining this whole thing of like how they're trying to do. It reminds me of watching like a stupid video on Barstool sports. If somebody making like a long distance beer pong cup where it's like yeah labyrinth. Show the one time that you do this crazy thing. But how many times have you tried to do it? How many different ways did you try to do it? And how many times do you film it like? Of course somebody can do anything if you try hard enough and try enough times so just because you are there some wild way to possibly do it with these random things that you found in your closet doesn't mean that the person did it so many of the theories and evidence in this trial was a reach so the defense then shifted attention to the mishandling of the evidence. The cops tunnel vision their failure to properly investigate any other leads the fact that the evidence was handled by an unethical detective who was fired altering dates on warrants all of that and he's also detective who hid evidence in a filing cabinet office. That wasn't found until two years after the murder. They noted how the Police Cherry picked which evidence attests for DNA and which not to use. Sandy's defense claimed that she got sucked into this by a couple of cowboys sheriff's office who came up some theories and game over and after each side presented closing arguments. The jury went in to deliberation. And when Liz was in the courtroom attending be verdict phase of the trial she was struggling to read expressions on the jurors face to try to get an idea of what the outcome was going to be. Remain came back. We realized to go in there and yet they were crying and some wouldn't even look at us. They would even make contact. I contact and I I knew then that would. It wasn't going to be good so the jury came back with a verdict guilty. Liz and sandy were floored. Sandy was sentenced twenty seven years for the murder of Jim. Her husband and so as you can imagine devastating. Just it's crazy to think that if you fit the bill. And they don't feel like doing all. The LEGWORK can easily go to prison for something that you had absolutely no involvement in I'm still completely shocked at how despite having no other. Dna there and other fingerprints or other. I know that there was a male. Dna on somewhere And yet they still convicted my mom I just. It boggles my mind at how how easily this happened. And I'm sure that there are a lot more people out there that just don't have the same boys and they don't have the same platform to say. You know I should not be in here. I'm innocent people say that but I think that Yeah this happens much more than we realize only said I only want justice for my dad. I just want answers and whatever justice for him is true. Absolutely this. We'll be the right thing for everybody and I just hope that we're not fighting too much longer for it. Where things now. Sandy filed an appeal but her conviction was upheld. But then Sandy's case caught the attention of attorney Kathleen Zellner. Who is from making murderer season two? She's a big deal. Zellner reevaluate and doing more DNA testing to exonerate. Sandy and Taylor has helped exonerate nineteen people who were wrongfully convicted. And she believes fully and Sandy's innocence so the fact that Kathleen Zellner is helping with Cindy's case now is a relief and there is hope that sandy will someday be exonerated. But until then. Sandy remains incarcerated. And it's been a really tough pill to swallow. I think that's the perfect description. Forward is kind kinda. Put All your resources into you. Know the one person. I have left in trying to make sure that they're okay. You know I can't even have to Nelson's happen and there are times where I feel answer that I am not actually actively working on the case or working to do something to help my mom. It's just finding the right way to live and finding the balance and I feel like we're just kind of struggling and Klein our way back to some normal someone for life and we'll ever get there but you know bringing my mom home and finding out who did this to see an asshole the best way to start it another travesty in this case is certainly the fact that Liz hasn't even have the opportunity degree for father properly because she had to jump into action for her mom immediately. We we haven't had a chance to warn a home rehab. His Service of twenty nine th of December. I remember calling in store because I needed close to where how many anything appropriate. I just come in like closed but I had my bag in England and I remember going through the mall and just like seeing people walking by me and thinking like how can be shopping and going about your lies like I just get so angry because all these people could be fine and my whole world is just been destroyed and it was just this anger that I felt that you know that we had to feel this way and whoever did this was still out there to do this to whoever whoever else they felt like doing now to you know there hasn't been much time. Just stop and smell the roses. There's always been something a do or some fight to have and it's just I'm I don't think we can never actually mourn his loss until until we know who actually did this and my mom is home and the right person is behind bars It's hard for me to talk about my dad. I just wish that he could be here to see my kids because I know that he would have given them. You know the sun and moon if they wanted him to would have done anything for for them and It just it tells me that he's never going to get to see that and he's never going to get to see who I became or what we've accomplished and I just didn't killed me that he's never going to have another year with my long sandy's conviction was controversial. Her and Jim's family and friends have stood by her through and through and continue to maintain her innocence. So Sandy's conducted just one interview from behind bars. So you're Sandy. They got it wrong. Got It completely wrong. You say you're blacked out. At the moment your husband was being murdered. People watching might think that sounds so convenient. Yeah it's not like oh I have seizures and I had a lump in my head so I was hit and then went into seizure more than likely actually see. That's how it felt like when I woke up. Sandra did you kill your husband. I did not kill Spin and you have grandkids and my grandbabies missing out on I know I know that really hurts me. I miss them so much. I'm just GONNA keep fighting this until I oughta here. I just want to commend leads for continuing to fight. Tirelessly for what she believes in. So if you're as moved by this case by this story as we are definitely check out was his website. Free Sandy Malger DOT COM. And they're they're selling some awesome t shirts that say in Zellner. We trust free. Sandy Melgar and I'm going to buy one of these here. You can also make a donation that will go towards additional. Dna testing the could aid pain. Sandy's exoneration so once more lays we're thinking about you and thank you for joining us. If anybody out there has a story they would like to tell. Please email us. Hello at the first degree. Podcast DOT COM. You can follow us on instagram. At the first degree out Alexis linkletter at Billie Jensen. At Jack Vanik. Please join our facebook. Group searched the first degree on your facebook search bar. We're talking true crime all the time and grab some merch while you're at it and stick around because we're GONNA kill some time. Ed Remember only you can prevent serial killers. Keep your friends close but not close. Rescue dog okay. Thank you bye sources for today's episode. Include the Houston Chronicle. Abc News CBS News Court documents the Free Sandy malger website and as always our agree guest is always our largest source though. We're apart days were sharing more and GEICO would just like to say thanks. Thanks for sharing. Your savage dance moves. Thanks for sharing your. Diy Haircut fails thanks for sharing your inner lip sing star. 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This is all those real moments you talk about with your family and friends ever wonder what else life has to offer. Bring your curious appetite. And let's do life together. Subscribe now at Apple podcasts. Spotify and PODCAST ONE DOT COM. Okay welcome to another episode of killing time you know. I'm really sick of recording distantly from you is because what does it taken us. A thirty minutes to try to set up our audio. We're doing killing time before the actual episode today and it's been a pain in my ass. You know what I will say though that between all of the eating and drinking that we do normally when we are sitting down and recording together that usually takes five hours in this takes to know it usually takes us elise. Six to eight hours Roach allies. We end up ordering pizza and we make drinks and we gossip and we talk about like all the other podcasters. No offence guys. We talk about everything and we just sort of download on life does because last time now but at least that also counted sort of heinous rise. Mine yes molly. We did it tickle difficulties. I understand what you're saying. Yeah you guys are two of my best ease and it was an excuse to I mean. My life used to be so busy that I didn't have time to really hanging out with friends so it was kind of an excuse for us to socialize. And hang out all the same time being productive. We'll do a podcast together. Because we both are workaholics. And the only way we'd get to bond as much as we is if we worked together that is true. I mean that's really. We really found the key to life by doing that but there was a time. There was just like a certain time. We're during our podcast at number one. They were the longest they've ever been so the episodes were like an hour and a half long but then also for some reason or like procrastination and our hangs and then are drinking habits and then the food like the whole process took at least six hours for an hour and a half podcasts. I knew if I was coming over four. I was leaving until eleven pm which is which is four. Am for most people because check goes to bed at usually eight PM. You is. I tell you about a really embarrassing nickname that I've been given during quarantine by my boyfriend. Jared yes please so as you know I go to bed extremely early. I don't like I don't like being out after the sun goes down. I like to be in bed by ten PM and I've been quarantined with. This is the case. I've been staying up a little bit later. I feel very reckless. Like sometimes stay up until like eleven PM. But I've been staying with my parents in Orange County and jared's been here and they collectively love to make fun of me like and so they've been calling me grandma. My mother has been calling me grandma. 'cause I like to go to bed at ten PM and then also I've been eating not the best foods that have given me gas burping gas and they have called me the nickname of gase grandma you that nickname. That is my new nickname. All right so merch guess who wants to wear that. Gase GRANDMA Murphy. You'd be surprised there stands out there though mortified you guys you know maybe somebody like really resonates with that by the way. Alexis hates any sort of bodily function or anything like that. So we're all that's not humor. That was the nickname that I've been given against against my will. I don't WanNa take but now it is sometimes given a nickname that you don't want and then you just embrace it like I did with the tank billy. I was like drunk. Us convinced me to get a tank tattooed on my body. And I'm still WanNa do it somehow? Have we explained to our listeners with the tank is I can't remember if we have not no but I'll start so it originally started because I can drink more than anyone. Anybody in not really seem drunk at all or act drunk or be drunk really. I mean I seem just pretty much fine fact I do my best work under the influence but anyways so then it started. The tank started to transcend justice one area in my life. Drinking SORTA embody all that I am and my perseverance. And My Sadness that I've overcome and all sorts. So it's a beacon of hope in a dark dark pandemic world so I to a little tiny tiny tank tattooed on my somewhere. I Love I love the idea of a tiny tank because it kind of feminizing the idea of a very masculine nickname of the tank. But my favorite thing short and make it work for me. We'll make it cute but my favorite thing is you just got an amazing opportunity in your professional life. And jared deny. Had you flowers to congratulate you an in the note of the flowers it said you know. Congratulations we love you so much. Where so we can't wait. Wait to see how far the tank will go. And I you posted on instagram. I reposted it and I had so many questions being like. Oh what is the tank shark tank? Did she likeness? Did she sell an invention shark tank? No a lot of people who were congrats on the tank. I'm like thank you deserve. Congratulations but they think the tank is the project. But it's not new ways anyway gives the project you know you're an ongoing project. We're going to talk about Jacqueline now. Because it was her birthday a couple days ago and we had a very exciting birthday party day. We did. Jared you've forgot to invite billy to zoom. I know he's so four my birthday. I hate birthdays. I always try to go to another country for my birthday. But jared knew how he needed to make special or else. I would spiral into a depression. So he set up this amazing Imo Birthday Party with all of my friends. Everybody dressed up and made their zoom pictures pictures of me and it was so cute all of my best friends but then he failed to invite billy me so and the weird thing is is that. I sort of knew that it was happening but I didn't really know what was happening but I was. I was dressed up in all of my email. Glory with my my lighter had everything and my hair swooped over one. I just alone in my house with a single black balloon. Billy you could do such a good enough to. How long has your hair right now? Can IT FIT over your it? Probably could I'll send you pictures of when my hair was over my I before was a thing and learn exactly It was right about the time they actually before Jack was born. There was eighty seven. Eighty seven eighty seven. Jack was born depending on what monther I might have been a fetus but Serjaki. She loves to drive home. That I'm like six months older but I'm not GonNa let it fly. This time alive barely barely. Maybe not only alive how deliberate. You're glimmer and maize I that's right. That's right glimmer you know. You're like a Vodka Soda Vodka Soda. I expect Tino. Maybe next time we record the podcast maybe dress up in yes costume background. I don't know some eyeliner would be nice. You know what I will welcome you to the Black Parade Nice Mike. I'm romance lyrics. I was offended but now knowing that you weren't invited me a little bit pissed it writing. I knew I knew the group Chat I was in and it was all the Gals. But then yeah. We got expanded to Kelsey into Mary. People that weren't in this chat. I was like oh I didn't know we could extent because the Chattanooga was called Jacks Birthday we later added you to it by route. Not Chat but I didn't know that anyone else's invited outside chats anyways. Well you know what I will say that the most email thing I could have done was stay at home and just cry it in your room by myself in the class. You weren't invited. Yes exactly so. I was more email than anybody else on that. Zoom call so in conclusion. You gave me the Best Gift Than Anybody could get hell. Yeah by email alone and crying by yourself. Thank you very gets philly. What was the thing that happened on your birthday Jack? I mean that was pretty amazing. You know I've been very emotionally fragile through this whole experience and I really miss other people so that was so sweet seeing all my friends do such a wonderful gesture that I just couldn't stop crying even though I was really happy but sad at the same time I mean other than that you know a Jordan. I did some wine dancing at night. That was really great. All I want is to convince him to do line dancing with me and like I said he's a really good line dancer and Dancer and and I'm very shocked because he's very dense and like he seems like the gravity is holding his body down she'd sink right to the bottom of the ocean about he would be an anchor like he's like a diving bell. The armor suits. He's just that would sink to the bottom. He's very dense like he's he's like he's he's stocky. He's thin issue knows building bad on it. He's like a tube steak that's heavy he'll you what's great is that jared has do you know and listen to this and there's nothing you can do but actually edit it out. He's my favorite part about. Jared body is that I got this pool like a blow up pool but the pool is just this. It's this rubber and it fills up with the water. You don't blow the actual pool up but you can smack the pool and it's this big dense like it's just like smack and you have to do it and I've realized that when I smack his belly it's the same dense irresistible smack that you guys ever does he like when you do that I don't think he did it first but I think now he's coming around to it because I'm slammed 'em slapping. I'm stop and debase all right. Well Billy different too because otherwise we might call it. I think we need to call it time. Death Eleven twenty.

Sandy Sandra Jim Herman Jim Gem Sandra Jim Liz Melgar murder Houston Texas Madison Reed Europe facebook Madison Reed Dot Com TUB Tim prosecutor United States Billy Johnson
Marti Hill

The First Degree

1:06:14 hr | 1 year ago

Marti Hill

"Thank you for listening to this podcast one production available on apple podcasts and podcasts one. Are you guys will today's episode has one of decrees twist that we've ever talked about in a case before but before we get into it. I want to talk about a sponsor. That's letting us give this episode to you today for free and they're ren clean skincare so run skin care they believe in being cleaned skin and clean to the planet which we absolutely love. They know that what goes on your body is key so only choose bioactive the benefit skin health and ingredients that protect the efficacy of the formula and make it a pleasure to use the result is a clean safe skincare with the no talk stations no harsher controversial chemicals and no potential irritants ever so the updated their colt favourite perfect canvas clean primer and i've been using it on my vacation and i am a loving it. The product has the same rate formula but a new more recyclable bottle and a lower price point which is now only forty forty five dollars which was previously fifty five so save that ten bucks so if you guys wanna go check out ren skincare and get twenty percents off all full size items including including the perfect canvas visit u._s._a. Dot r. e. n. Skin-care dot com and use code. I again that's u._s._a. Dot run skin-care dot com and use our promo code. I enjoy the show degree degree degree. I i suppose to have any movies looking at her. You mean her had was so swollen poland. Her eyes are completely swollen. Shut the it looks like a tear drop of blood running down the side of her face. Hey guys welcome to the first degree. True crime podcast that you might end up on my name is jack v-neck. I'm sitting across from alexis linkletter next to billy johnson. Who's dressed like a ninety s kid kid. I'm wearing wearing plaid. Why what's so bad about wearing. Maybe i just never see you in anything you've ever seen the not black i decided because this was competitive at lazy day as last hung over day i put on plaid hung over interesting sounds interesting. Maybe we might have recorded a we got a a little bit wasted did have a long. Can i just make a public announcement that billy drink all the alcohol and alexis apartment and left me with not even a full beard because then you say you decided that you wanted the other beers and then you also want it all the vodka and then also drink all the lexuses jen before we all we're looking for the bottle of the jin ryu jin could it be and then it was in the trash can because bali ali drinks the entire bottle like last two weeks ago. It was insane. I'm anyway listen. There's a lot of work. We gotta decompress while we do this. I always you have to decompress before we move onto our day. I would like to remind everybody that we're still having a competition for <hes> podcast reviews so go to your apple podcast kassab. Go give us a review. Leave your instagram in your review and we're picking two winners every week to give free march to. We're going to be able to go to our march store. Pick anything you want any size anything and we will send it to you right now. I wanna see you in your march and we're going to post it. That's right yeah so you better take some picks all right billy what day this is a day. I can get behind abby an extra dessert day. Oh you know what i can get behind that too. I had a cookie for breakfast. I've been doing this recently and i need to stop why chocolate chip cookies for breakfast with with my coffee well. There's a cereal called cookie crisp cereal person. Are there any other day. Is this speak to me yeah well. There's only two other days the national macadamia day that's even worse than a cookie and national newspaper carrier day or and what's the other news easily burst into that one all right well. That's a message that let's turn down the lights and turn off your your anxiety because this could be you september eighth. Two thousand ten love the way you lie by eminem and rana was topping the charts. I'm still here <hes> an easy a were playing in the theaters and it was a normal day at the apparel company. Were marty hill worked. She let a graphics team and she and her staff for. I lied to me at ten a._m. For production meeting as everyone began to congregate people started to realize that marty wasn't there in fact shouldn't come to you work at all. Her co workers found this to be extremely unusual. Mardi is a very dependable and reliable and a passionate worker <unk> as graphic artist and it would be really strange for her to just not show up to work right in. Marty was described kind of as a little firecracker. She's really petite. Not she only weighed about ninety seven pounds soaking wet but she was feisty and fierce and she took care of business she took kickboxing lessons in state super active and really loved to work on our fitness and she was also the kind of person who really didn't let anything fall through the cracks. She was very buttoned up into punctuate. Punctuate with jacqueline said would not not show up to work yeah. That's just not her m._o. She was also a mother of two in at this time in two thousand ten sheet sheet. A twenty five year old son named steven who had just moved out of the house and she had a fifteen year old daughter named mackenzie who happens to be our first degree connection today as far as personality. My mom definitely the most positive person i've ever met my entire. Life is always always trying to good comedy or the goodness situation. She's definitely the most selfless person as well even though she would never admits missed out or herself. When my brother graduated high school he had a scholarship to go russell and and once he finished college actually moved back chase houston to work for my grandpa's company and so my mom and i actually really only two that lived in mcrae village house so one of marty's co-workers censor text text thinks that something may have just come up no reply and she calls her a few times no answer no phone back so she goes by marty's house and she gets their mardi car is sitting in the driveway so she walks up she rings the doorbell no answer she knocks on the door no answer the house looked empty and she just had a bad feeling so she went back to her car. Call the office and then spoke with another coworker and they built decided listen. We need to call the police so the police officer that was dispatched was bill baldwin of prairie village police department and he arrived very he quickly on the scene and when he arrived to this area he he noted that this particular neighborhood is especially quiet. It's residential. It's suburban paradise and he hasn't been there much because they don't get many calls to this particular part of town because it is so safe so officer baldwin approached the home he went up to the front door and he noticed that the door was closed but not locked so he pushed the door open slowly instead inside. It's the police department marty are you home. He said that over and over again he called for mardi mardi mardi are you there as he cautiously entered into the home. One of the first things he noticed that caught his glance was a woman's purse filled with belongings on the kitchen table officer baldwin being married man thought about his own wife how she didn't ever leave the house without her own purse. So now officer baldwin believes martin actually be inside the home somewhere he scanned the upstairs rooms and saw no clues that suggested there was any sort of struggle title robbery or other emergency that may have taken place there but then you saw door that appeared to lead to the basement he began to descend the stairs stairs so officer baldwin he's about two or three steps from the bottom of the stairs and he sees a person laying on the floor kind of like in a fetal position covered head to toe in blood and there was also a large amount of blood pooling around the person on the floor. He thought it was mardi but she was unrecognizable and she was barely breathing. She had been badly. The beaten in her neck was sliced. Her wounds were described savage so the officer he kneels down next to her and he keeps asking are over and over again. Who did this who did this to you marty who did this to you and he was saying that he wanted to get a dying declaration exploration. If that was what this was going to be he wanted in her last words to say who did this to marty was rushed to the hospital title and when the trauma surgeon walked in he saw her being wheeled in on a stretcher and he remarked later that she was so incredibly battered that he could not tell how it i if his patient was a man or woman or if they were young or old and had no idea what race his patient was that's how much blood was covering her body and how swollen her face and her head was. The only thing that the doctor could see was a lifeless form but she wasn't lifeless despite her catastrophic injuries mardi clinging to life as they tried to take stock of her many injuries as mardi clings to life word of what what happened to her spreads to her family the night before i had stayed at my dad's house side note mardi inner ex-husband are divorced well. I woke up went to school afterwards. My dad picked me and my best friend up into best to her house. I was in my best friend's room. <hes> at her house. My brother called me and was trying to start small tax. I mean he was saying. Can you know and i just tell from things wrong by the tone of voice by the time this phone call had happened. It was around kim. I want to say and the attack actually happened at eight a._m. She was there for about four hours before before anybody has found her and the reason that i haven't known about anything until so late is because they had actually told this numbers but did no. They weren't allowed to tell my brother or i because of you know they didn't want any of the information mason get out for the perpetrator to now if he was someone that could be you know that could get that information so it mckenzie's saying is that the police probably feared it was was someone close to marty and so my aunt actually went against what was after her and not telling us and end eventually and that day said we need this house even in mackenzie they called him. He called me kind of stopped and i said is everything yeah okay. All he's back to me. Was moms hurt. I said she okay and i just remember silenced and he said god she's alive. I just remember so vividly. I just kind of ran i got up and i ran outside of my best friends graham downstairs into her driveway and i just collapsed balling marty's daughter mackenzie marty's mother shirley walk into the hospital spital. The only thing going through my head was just issue okay. I need to go see her. As soon as we got their glee was the detectives that had taken my grandma ask more questions so i was kind of last close to the i._c._u. And was able to you walk back and see her. I walked back into the room. Donald person laying there really just did not not believe it was my mom. I again fell to my knees and i remember the first thing i said kind of thinking back on. Maybe the dan teenage arguments we may have had and i just said i will never be mean to you ever again and obviously you know she couldn't hear hear me but it was just at that moment where i'm so appreciative of everything she had done for me and looking at her you mean her had was so swollen. Her eyes are completely torn shot. It looked like a teardrop of blood running down the side of her face and i now know that the hospital would actually very trained and in situations like this so when someone that was potentially involved in a crime scene came in they knew not to clean them up right away because is there may be evidence. That was something now looking back makes complete sense but what i saw was really just the absolute most horrific horrific sight i have ever seen and the way that i did identify her was kind of moved to the bedsheet away from her hand hand. Hold it and i recognized her hands. I mean that was really the only thing about her and that i could recognize so the doctors are trying to make sense of all of her injuries. What they found was that the major veins the skin the muscle on the left side of the neck had all been completely cut through through and the major artery actually had a couple of knicks on it so we're talking millimeters away from having been completely cut through and for the next ninety minutes they cleaned the wounds and tried to put her back together but the doctors were still very concerned about her head so she had the cut but that she had this incredible bruising and swelling to her face and concussions which is essentially what she had can lead to swelling swelling of the brain so so they could look fine initially look look on the surface that they're fine initially and then the person could die a day later three days later so the concussion could be what kills her and detective named luke roth appeared at the hospital and when he arrived there were some key things he noticed and that he was looking. I'm four one was that marty's close appeared to be fully intact her bra appear to be intact and there were no signs of sexual assaults that could be seen in this preliminary phase and as he's looking for signs of sexual assault what he's really trying to pin down is signs of a motive no one knew so whether or not marty was going to survive and there was a hematoma located behind marty's ear which came one millimeter from a major artery which was of incredible oh concern to the doctors and they weren't really sure what was going to happen. I mean marty was in a phase where she was very touch and go so once you're done listening to all of the episodes that you're harkin desire of the i agree. We have an amazing new show for you to bench and it's called carnival row so carnival row was a one hour fantasy drama series starring orlando bloom and car de levin who we absolutely love the series is set in victorian fantasy world filled with mythological creatures creatures whose exotic homelands were invaded by the empires of man. They struggled to coexist with humans. They're forbidden to live love or fly with freedom. Orlando bloom plays ryshkov off illustrate who is a police inspector investigating a string of gruesome murders threatening the uneasy peace of the row car de levin plays vignette stone mazda ferry refugee who flees her warranty on homeland to come to burg or she must contend not only with rampant human prejudice against kind but with the secrets that have followed her to the new you land but even in darkness hope lives as human detective and ferry rekindle their dangerous affair despite increasingly intolerant society come together on august thirtieth to watch carnival only on amazon prime video this labor day weekend the police start to talk to people will and figure out who would have done this to marty and they go to martin's mother and kenzi who were both at marty's bedside and they're asking them who who could have done this. They learn that marty has an ex husband by the name of steve hill so where the police start they start with marty's ex husband they go to steve hills house and they interview him. He's very cooperative and invites the police and it is house. He runs down exactly likely what he did that day and tells them all about the history of his relationship with marty and yes they had some rough times together but you would never forever do anything bad to her and he wanted to find out who did this. Just as bad as everybody else did impact. It questioned me the day it happened. I went into a room with one of the detectives. I remember just being really small room with white walls and they you started asking me alive questions about my parents their relationships. If i ever thought my dad would do something like this and i just remember being go up fat and stowed offensive. My dad would never do anything like that. It was never a thought that crossed my mind and it made me sell up side. I really still does to this day that he was a fastback tino because they really had no one else to look at so marty made it through her first i night after her attack and mackenzie had to go home and go to sleep and try to carry on as her mom is fighting fighting for her life and they have no idea who attacked her and as the days went on i did say at my dad's house we were both so scared i bought in my parents bed with the door locked every single night with a shotgun next to the bed because i was the only thing that made us feel safe and every morning getting ready for school i couldn't blow dry my hair in the bathroom without my dad's sitting right there next to me. I just something about not being able to hear what was going on around me was just really unsettling after the police were confident that maris has been steve wasn't involved. They want to know what else she'd rather spare time. Who else could she be seeing. Who also is she involved with. Marty's mother said that she didn't know if marty was dating anybody but if she wasn't working she was at home. That's it that was what her life was. So at this point there's very very limited information as to who mardi might have been with or who she might have been in recent communication with so so as police question marty's family at the hospital officers were also scouring the crime scene for clues to see what they could glean from this scene trying to figure out how how and why marty was targeted and ultimately attacked so there initially thinking. Maybe this was a robbery but the canvas the hill home. It seemed that nothing a value was missing at all she even had cash laying out in her purse was on the counter as the responding officer had seen initially. Why was martin targeted so the detectives also went to marty's office inspector co workers who were friends of hers. They were trying to get a sense of martyrs routine the people in our life there were looking for anything that could lend a clue to what direction they should go in and try to figure out who would have done this to this mother of two and they also learn something else. They learned that somebody had broken into marty's mother's home a few days before mardi was attacked. Maybe it was connected and the police are really didn't know what was going on here but it's something that was interesting that they had to put on their radar is could be connect so the police keep digging and they learned from marty's mother that accompany had recently done work at our house and it was called b and j construction and she actually told marty you should use this company. Yeah we'll give her a give them. A reference and marty had mentioned in passing that there was a guy whose name is brian and he'd been sent to her home to complete work and she thought he was a nice guy and marty's mother thought bryan was a good family man good hard worker occur and actually did good work so marti used them because she had some stuck going inside her house that needs to get done and he did a really good job so police are raised eyebrow at that and they say okay well. Let's give brian a call. They get brian's number when they call brian. They don't abbas last night that it's no his name is bryan. Bryan calls back and he says his last name is brian pennington. He's twenty six years old luton missouri which is about ninety minutes from the kansas city metro area and the police. You know this seems pretty innocuous okay. This is just a handyman but like i always say if it's not the husband the handyman it's the handyman but they decided that all right. We need to talk to this guy guy so two nights. After the attack they get to brian's house. The please enter the small house which is home to brian his two young kids on his twenty year old wife jessica. It's a little after nine pm and the house is pretty secluded pretty dark. They knock on the door. Your bryant answers. Let's in come on in. Let's talk in the kitchen very cooperative respectful polite and there was yeah recorded from these casual questionings at brian's home these would you think really let <hes> she's brewery recently. Have you heard what happened to her. At all. No l. news channel earlier and so there's work on the inside or outside <music> person birthday she get <hes> hold over the next to go touch trims and stuff. Do you do outside things. Overturn later senior <music> <music> then he says talking about his financials so far i heard trump brian's i._d. They realize it's it's <hes> expired by quite a while news <music> <music> early. It took six years off. Where's is that in jail <music> city jail or killing six since since when was that only have you been out of jail awesome brian is answering these questions detectives are looking at him and they noticed that he has several scratches on the left side of his face ace and when they ask brian about this brian claims that his pit ball playfully pot him on the face in caused these marks on on his face the deductive is in buying it because when he looked at the scratches on his face they didn't appear to be consistent with what a dog would do or the marks that a dog would leave and the officer felt like maybe brian was hiding something and they asked him point blank if he was the one who had attacked marty in her home and and brian said no and brian kept stressing to the cops that he was having financial difficulties and there was no way that he could drive to kansas city to commit this crime and this was due to the fact that he didn't have enough money for gas and it was an hour and a half away after all they also go into the living room of the house and they speak with brian's wife jessica and they ask her where brian was the morning of the attack. Was he at home. Are you talk to your. Maybe laundry all this week. When do you remember when oceania oceania many o'brien's crews. Have you ever seen blood or anything on fiscal. All there is <music> to download movies tiring talked about that. Let's bills paid for mom. Just new here with your kids. Older ones are just to confirm. You're saying brian has been here. We're trying to figure out what's going on here <music>. We have no doubt that we're going to find the person that's responsible for this dangerous. I hope you're is in this kind of situation and if you're telling me the truth you don't have a thing in the world to worry about besides kid. I i know he did work on a house. Oh scared about if you like wine. <hes> andrew listening to the first degree then we're probably soulmates and i have the most amazing sponsor that you're going to want to get on board with and they're called. 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Postage twenty four seven for any letter any package any class a meal anywhere you wanna send and once your meal is ready. Just handed to your mail carrier or drop it off and a mailbox. It's that simple so if you wanna check out stamps dot com and get a four week trial a plus free postage and a digital skill or the any long-term commitment go to stamps dot com and click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and typing code first degree agree again that stamps dot com and enter code first degree so jessica said that on the night marty was attacked attacked bryan was home with her and jessica said that he had finished up that job the month prior and he'd been home. I'm two weeks straight day. He wasn't going anywhere. He ain't going nowhere in the night. I can't sleep at night if he's not here. That's chiesa eko going nowhere in the night nowhere so then the detective s jessica about the scratches that he saw on brian's face. Do you know how we got. Those jessica said there from the dog. I swear i swear and the story it's never the dog the dog and the detective -tective how many times has a dog scratched. Her face probably never billy. I've had my delegates face your face yeah like she does it doesn't mean to she's just like trying to you know hey look at me. You put your face to close but the detective the dog now. He doesn't believe jessica and just is also young. She looks about twenty years old. She looks very naive and and they had two children was like a year and a half and six months yet so they're they're getting the idea. The detectives are that this woman is going to say anything to protect your family and protect her husband. She needs him around things. Were already tight after this talk and with the scratches the detectives thank this guy uh-huh and they ask brian. Do you have any clothes that have blood on them in his house and he says no immediately says now i don't and we just heard the detectives asked jessica if she had laundered any clothes that had blood on them and she also said now they ask can we look through your clothing and he told them here so they go into the quarter of going to the bathroom and in the corner they see a hammer and he starts pulling out clothes finds a pair of jeans near the bottom of the hamper and he he pulls out the jeans and he immediately cbs's detective. They're covered with a red state and most of the stain was towards the the and back down the pin the pant leg so the detective asks brian if he knew the stuff was that was on the bottom of his pant leg. Brian said it's greece greece's something i don't know and the detective said it's not blood though right and brian said frankly no but when the detective saw the stains that was it he's like i got something. He tries to remain calm and you know he doesn't. He doesn't want to spook bryan bryan clam yeah like right now. It's what detectives to. It's like would be played nice guy. They don't think we just gotta. We gotta clear you dude whatever exactly and he's just trying to be like. How do i get him to allow me to take this. I have to act like. I don't know what's what's up yeah so he he's the asks him can i can. I take these genes from your house and brian writes a form fills out a form <hes> which is a consent form that says you can take my jeans my shoes dna swabs and they also take pictures of the scratches on his face and the detectives were they were like wow that was guys doing acid. We're getting this cooperation and they found you know they probably thought once they found the stain with blood that he was going to completely clam up yeah of course he just kept going and said yeah take all the stuff that's totally fine and then they start to doubt out then because maybe that was innocuous. Maybe that was greece danger something. Maybe this isn't our guy. Why would you do that. Why would you just hand everything over over and say here you go. They let the police rummage through the house looking the dirty laundry ticket shoes and things like that too so it's like. I don't know maybe he didn't do it. He's behaving lena stuff over pretty confidently so the detectives in the situation are clearly dealing with some mixed signals on the one hand brian had recent in contact with marty he had worked for admitted to that. She'd paid him five hundred dollars for the work that he had done on her home on the other hand what would drive a twenty seven year old man to attempt to attack and kill a forty four year old woman who hired him for some contract work and nothing else not only that i mean he'd been working for marty's mother shirley for nearly two years it. There was no sexual assault. He lived now and a half away. There's no obvious motive you know this wasn't computing computing and now he was handing these pants with red stains over willingly to the police for testing. Is this something guilty person would want to do. The police left brian's and drove straight to the crime lab. They got there around eleven pm and within thirty minutes they figured out that the genes tested positive for human blood okay so they have a yes for blood but they don't know who the blood actually belonged to. It could have been anybody's bought at this point. He does contract work so really could've even been his own so they'd have to wait a couple more days to determine who the blood belonged to with d._n._a. Testing so following the visit to brian's house house the detectives were contacted by the hospital and at first feared the worst. They fear that this attempted murder case. I was actually going to turn into the straight homicide case that marty had died but that's not what happened. They got a call that said mardi party is not only alive. She's recovering. She's conscious and she's talking pink. God you know okay. We feel like we we never have cases. I know it's so many actually pretty shocking to this happened on a wednesday on chatter day is when we actually got a phone call saying that she's talking and she just said brian. My grandma was right there when she said it and so because my grandma had already given the name brenton they were able to put that together very quickly but the police did get the dna results back in the blood found on brian's jeans was in fact mardi hills blood and with the conclusiveness of d._n._a. Evidence they knew knew that they had plenty to issue an arrest for brian five days. After the attack on monday september thirteenth the police drove to brian's enlighten missouri and found him driving having down the road he was laid back and the front passenger seat attempting to conceal himself from view as his wife drove the vehicle so they took him into custody eh in when the police took him into custody. This guy showed no signs of being upset. He showed no signs of anger. There is absolutely no emotion nothing apathy apathy total psychopath or just total denial so one thing that's interesting is when marty's mother shirley found out that bryant was the one who is responsible for this. I mean i mentioned earlier that he had referred brian to daughter mardi and surely had known him for years knew his wife in new his young kids and surely felt responsible. She nearly fainted when she found out that he was responsible. What's ball but my personal opinion surely cannot blame herself because when you have a healthy brain like presumably me jack and billy really who's sitting over here being really quiet. Does you're not constantly trying to prove that people in your life for dangerous. Your radar is an up and you're not constantly constantly looking to smoke out. Wolves dressing sheep's clothing. There's no way to know who of these strangers around neath could be dangerous in the only person responsible responsible here is brian mackenzie and her family are dealing with a lot of questions and a lot of fears. You know mars recovery the prosecution of this criminal all but one of the most glaring questions was why off the bat. The confusion about motive here is insane. I honestly to this day day. Just don't know and that's something that i've kind of come to terms i can. I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about myself as to why it would be because i know she's an amazing person. It's almost like he knew she was the perfect person and maybe he would never be that or maybe he would never have that. I truly don't know i know that's something she's struggled with. Ally is understanding but versus beginning getting the detectives have really just assured. I thought we don't think that way. We don't think like someone who could commit an act like that. Uh-huh and it's something that we won't ever understand. I was talking to mackenzie pointed something out and i said you know the night before the attack attack. You slept at your dad's but if you had slipped slept at your mom's you would have been there while this happened. I would have been there and that's something something else. I've seen obviously people people write all kinds of crazy stuff online but something i saw <music> that made me stop looking at all those things <hes> someone actually had commented somewhere written something that said had you know i think what happened was he had gone to kill the kenzi. I think he had gone for the daughter and i guess the way i always just kind of. Russia is the way i always don't with that was well that doesn't make sense because i had never met him but you're right and yeah i definitely certainly would have been there. Part of me goes back to if i was there. Would it not have happened. There's so many ways to think about it. There's there's so many ways to look back but we truly can't change anything that happened and i think if there's anything i learned from my mom it's just thinking in forward being positive and not spending your time on those things that keep you strasser. Anxiety brian was charged with attempted first degree murder and what's interesting is that they must have at this point believed cause second degree would have been if it was impromptu so at this point they've piece together that oh you didn't have an appointment with marty. You drove directly. There were the sole purpose of her. Yeah yeah didn't steal anything like it seemed seemed like a very planned. I mean they must have had information within their investigation that we're not privy to. I mean maybe they pulled surveillance. Maybe lord knows they're tracking everything you do but they they had reason to be like oh. You weren't there. This was a crime of opportunity. This is something you plants bright and marty's recovery was slow arduous and painstaking thing she said. I don't remember those first days. I don't remember feeling any pain. I do remember feeling like i had too much medicine in me. I didn't feel good. I believe leave that. It was the third day when i started speaking. Suddenly it all kind of flooded back what had happened. There are no questions i knew who it was and what he had done so that was martyrs perspective on the recovery. Marty's doctors described the initial recovery as as marty's brain was stunned around in complete shock in that kind of head trauma when you have the swelling that she had and your brain is sort of in survival mode and you forget things and you know she could walk walk but it wasn't pretty i remember in that room is so swollen she had to almost pinch it in with her two fingers to open her eye and she would just open it up and look at my brother and then look at me and then closer i and the way that she did that just seemed like she was able to be at peace and not moment seeing ash knowing where her one of her eyes wasn't tracking talking to her because of the brain trauma only one is able to move and the other one was just straightforward and i remember that was something i was so concerned turned about just because you know you need someone for the first time and you look straight in the eye and knock what you see and looking herself in the mirror and that was just something i was so scared it up with the a constant reminder of what happened but it just goes to normal and i it honestly is truly incredible how how she looks to that. She was starting to really feel her face. Falling on her is down a little bit the color of her <music> skin changed from purple the teen to like more of a green and yellow and remember she looked which in the mirror one day just had why don't work very good today and it was not same moment i was in the bathroom author much her helping or go to the bathroom helping her sit down helping her stand up taking her back to the bed so a lot of what i did. It was really being able being almost like the parent and that's what made me feel. It really made me feel like i was hoping and like that was one. It was really what felt right to me. It was just i'm going to do everything thing i can to help. Get her back to her. I mean all of those nerve endings in your brain when they get settled when they get damaged have to work to repair and brain injuries are really scary in that. Sometimes you have a brain injury. They're confident something will come back. Those nerves will repair sometimes their nerves that are in this gray or or like sometimes it comes back and sometimes it doesn't and sometimes like when you have a spinal injury this these don't repair brain injuries are very scary for people in that way and it's like some people revert back to childhood and and can take care of themselves and there was a lot of concern here but luckily i mean marty was mending and she was healing and and she was doing her best to heal given the circumstances and as far as our cognitive abilities she would change topics at the speed of light so she was having some difficulty with concentration to and the stronger that marty got the more she was able to recount of the morning of her attack. Here's what happened in marty's own words. I had gotten up early. I heard a knock at the door looking out the window. I saw that it was brian pennington. I couldn't really understand for sure why he would be there. It was odd that he was there that early. It was that he didn't call. I remember that he lived far away about an hour or and a half away. I rationalize his presence on my doorstep. He must be working in the area and wondering if i have more work than he's done he never voiced us. It was awesome author michelle up that early. He'd never arrived early when he had come to. My house previously work looking back. I realized that i had an odd feeling about this but i ignore the significance against of my instincts. I didn't wanna be rude. I went to the door and letterman being fairly brief conversation. He mentioned that he remembered robert something that was in the basement that he thought i should have done. I was very close to being ready to leave for work. We had someone in our department on vacation and i wanted to be there a little early. I i didn't think too much about this because he knew that i was getting the house ready to be put on the market so we started walking to the basement. I was leading leading. I i do remember talking but i also felt like he was being quiet like you would at least say how what okay i was getting an odd feeling ruling as we were going down the stairs in just two steps from the bottom of the stairs. He groped my throat. It was very tight in very strong. I kept saying what are you doing and it was just silence. He never said a word. I remember thinking that i should know what to do. When someone strangles you i should know how to get out of this. My voice faded quickly and i passed out. I came to and tried to fight back grabbing at him. Everything happened so fast. I told him to get out of my house and again asked him. What are you doing. My voice kept getting lower softer and suddenly my voice. I couldn't speak my voice can come out and i passed out. I was left on the floor in the basement. 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App or the sound of your own voice and you can even get professionally monitored third carbon monoxide and smoke detectors and a system custom designed to fit your own home and that safety on the go in the car when your kids are at school. It's all with the a._d._t. Go app or s._o._s. Button so today's episode is sponsored by a._d._t. After the arrest as brian sat in custody the police learned that he had a prior police record and i walked police officer conduct an interview about the case and he said that brian had over sixty six zero contacts with law enforcement officers and he was involved in several domestic violence incidences where injuries as occurred to wise two girlfriends so battering women was not new to him right and jack and i were talking about this before we recorded on the heels of appearing not i was like okay. Let's see what we can find about some of these prior instances and deep dive into clear just missouri and kansas yeah 'cause. I don't know where else he lived saved because there's nothing really on him i didn't i did a background search and there aren't any other states so that was my best deductive reasoning trying to figure out where i could find records. There's has no records of any of his other infractions. I was saying jack. How would mardi if marty knew this guy was coming over new his name and and you wanted to just take a cursory serie look at who this guy who was coming into your house where you would be home alone is <hes> if she had done a search there would have been nothing and i always just wonder so we struggle with us. We always talk about how important it is to protect your civil liberties but on the other hand. It's also important that if you've had a horrible track record if you've checkered past if you've violence against women in your background which can be an indicator of a multitude of things i i mean shouldn't we as women in men to be protected from violent individuals or at least have the chance to opt in or out of being in their presence and that's the thing that i always struggle with in that regard and there was nothing on this guy. There was no way he could have known lacrosse. One of the detectives lives on the case believed that brian pennington is evil. He noted that not only did brian strangle marti initially he then beat her head into the concrete floor which caused multiple facial fractures and if that wasn't enough he then slit her throat three to four times leaving her to die in her basement that that morning detective lacrosse also said that brian was surprised when the cop should up at his door and he was even more surprised is to hear that marty hill was still alive. Brian intended to leave no living witnesses that morning and although mardi maintained her strength and perseverance through her attack and her recovery there was still one more terrifying obstacle for her to overcome. She had to face brian in court. Yeah i mean. I don't think i can never understand how truly hard that was for her. <hes> i think she's the only one that really knows rose and and felt those emotions. I know watching her walk there. She was still healing so it was well. <hes> our our attorney was incredible. She was there for her really just emotionally to to help my mom get through it and walked her up to the stand where she had to identify who it was and i just i so much respect for her even being able to do do that as as felt something so natural to her. You know what i have to do. It took so much strength to to one point where my brother and i were sitting on the side that he was sitting on and the police officer had to come over and ask us to move home because the they can just rita. You're still mad in court. It was really the first time that mackenzie family actually heard about this person who savagely attacked her mother. She really didn't know anything about him. Before some of the things that we started to find out so initially initially his wife said that he was with her that night he had beaten her. She had broken bones in the past. I think one of you had a crazy track record where he should have been in jail. Honestly at that point. I think he had tried to run over an ex in law ah with car stolen being i mean just as crazy story so pennington makes a deal with the prosecutors and he he actually tries to so he pleads guilty but then he tries to change his guilty plea at the last second the judges like now the judge gives him twenty eight years in prison for this brutal knife attack on marty so what did mackenzie think about the sentence her him being so young i. I truly don't think it's enough time <hes> if we would have gone to trial he could potentially could have gotten up to. I think it was fifty four years which it wouldn't have been enough. I think he should be in prison for life. I don't think someone who can commit an act like that to ever have a chance to be in society again then. I think it's just such a risk thing. I have such a hard time with it if she wouldn't have made it. She was literally a millimeter away from not living and is that would have been the outcome she would have been murdered and and citizens would have been different. He wouldn't have gotten twenty seven years. That's what i have such a hard time. What mackenzie brings up a really interesting point in matt his act. His intention was to murder marty so the fact that she survived doesn't make him any less dangerous who showed he be locked up for last last time. It's a really interesting question how someone could do something like this. I do think there's something just wrong with him. I do think you know he's a psychopath. I think that there's no other explanation. It's not something that just happened one day. I think it truly is something that <hes>. I mean one thing too that just kind of attest to his life was that in in the courtroom there wasn't a single person on his side. My mom had half the courtroom and more spilling over into what was supposed to the guy just spilled the court and friends and family and i think that really tough to the type of person she was and there's another thing that that mackenzie really wanted to bring up that kind of hasn't really been touched on in relationship to this case what my dad went through and obviously it can never compared apparently what my mom went through but being you know blamed essentially or being you know on the other end of this crime and having having the detectives look at you where this is something i haven't really thought about until recently but if my mom had it made it and my we didn't have enough evidence against somebody else you know what if my dad was falsely issues and what if i they didn't have parents that fifteen years old for the rest of my life i would just be show completely different. I don't i feel like i wouldn't i just i can't even complete intensive too. I don't know where i would be so one of her. Last questions for mackenzie was how this seemingly random attack on her mother which almost cost her her life has affected her. What happened is something that i do think about probably almost every day. It's something that will actually for the rest of my life. Do get scared sometimes by i think the best way to handle it is really being aware of your surroundings. I if i were to have someone come work on my house. I would make sure that someone knew where i was you. You know i always make sure my boyfriend knows where i am law and <hes> or that. There's someone here with me. Just kind of taking those necessary steps to be cautious. Josh is just in case and how is mardi doing today so she talks to herself in terms of per physical appearance <unk>. Obviously she'll always have the scar on her neck to remind her unfortunately of what happened she exactly as she you did before but i know she's so really does have trouble rationalizing the sphere that to get when before she could you know kind of scuttle saddle it and when she speaks and echoes she gets dizzy. She has a hard time balancing. Sometimes everyone when you need to really understand that when people go through trauma whether it's these you know the pain she feels the echo that the constant reminders doctors and just knowing things aren't the same as they were before or if it's just an internal struggle that someone's feeling just really never go because you can get someone to open up. You can have those conversations or at least let them know. You're there for them. I think it's something that everyone can be a little bit more aware of and as horrible bull as this experience has been for mardi she has found a way to find meaning and it and she's started doing speaking gauge moments and she has a website mardi hill dot com. Tom and she's basically started a foundation that provides support to victims of trauma in similar situations because when this happened to her she he didn't have anyone to talk to and she found one of the only things that really helped was talking to people who had been there who understood and mardi also has a book in progress and as soon as it is is out. I am going to buy it because the story is so inspiring. It's called a millimeter from murder. The anatomy of a survivor and i just think it's incredible that marty despite this horrific experience you've been able to do something positive with it to help others and it's really a beautiful inspiring message. You're sending so what are we learned today. I'll tell you what i didn't learn is why he picked mardi so so weird. Usually i you mean in every case we've done. There's been some sort of a connection. There's been some sort of a motive even if you're seeing like less killings or less attackers it's like oh. That's why they're doing that. They have a a fetish about hurting people and they're getting sexual gratification but it's like he didn't he didn't we do that in this case and nothing was missing and she was older than head but it's just odd he was doing work for the grandmother at her house and then doing work for mardi and you just don't know what his brain was doing and he hasn't. He hasn't said anything so we don't know and she's still confused. Infuse letting that's the negative about a guilty plea. They don't have to say anything and they didn't go for any kind of because he did play. He didn't have a lawyer earlier that tried to go for a mental illness defense or something along those lines so we're stuck with not knowing shows like well. It happened and that's what's the give and take with a guilty plea. It's like you spare the family a lengthy in emotionally traumatizing trial but you don't get any answers. I mean it's funny. We just saw this in our last two o._j. Episodes with domestic violence escalated into something more only this time. It's completely misplaced. I mean this isn't i mean lord knows what his poor wife went through but this isn't someone he knows personally that he's escalating in violence. It's not like he was in an abusive relationship that he ended up trying to kill that person yeah exactly it's almost like he's escalating but he had to put it somewhere else in pick some random to do that but it just is odd i mean i haven't seen this before where it's like usually hey. This is a lust type attack and this seems to me. I mean the fact that he drove. Two hours is also meditated. It also was yeah. I wasn't a criminal convenient ran into her at a park and was like oh well shit. He had to go there for two hours when he was driving like like you could have stopped yourself at any point in time and the fact that there is no real connection to her that we know of. It's just so we're you're right and it's it's so strange not strange as we're just conditioned this way because when we're looking for our killing that would make sense you know if she's sexually assaulted our brains brains would process that better because let's say okay that's when you're sick bastard yeah but with this guy nothing so disconnected connected well. One of the last things i wanted to bring up before we end is something interesting. The judge said at sentencing he said i guess we'll never know why brian did this. In this is a deduction that feels to me at least unfinished because even though we're talking about about a supposed lack of motive there's always something at least that's we believe here on the first degree that would purposeful actions of violence even when the target is selected at random. There's always an explanation even if it's buried deeply in the psyche of pathetic criminal like brian. There's there's a narrative even if not obvious at first there's always one that's present whether the act was prompted by a particular state of mind or even a desire to feel something in new or reasoning inspired by fantasy or thrill seeking either way whatever elusive motive he had or whatever feeling he was trying trying to incite by killing mardi hill his efforts failed miserably because marty is not only alive but she's thriving and she's better than cadaver in brian is rotting in jail during what's supposed to be the prime of his life all right well. We want to give a special. Thanks to mackenzie our first degree gas. Ask to a believer friend listened to the podcast and connected us exactly everything's connected in a weird way one degree from everything we're lower two degrees but thank you very much and if you are one degree away from a murderer or other stranger than fiction crime please write us. Hello at the first group podcast dot dot com or facebook message billy email me email also read your damn but i'll just send you an email and go get some march arch. I agree marches up and pop in and remember to enter our little giveaway contest guy giving us a good review on apple podcasts including in your instagram name and we'll pick it to this week. Pick anything you want in the store any size any shape any color the bank they understand not you deserve. It best reviews most creative. We're going to be going through that and also tell your friends about us. We work really hard. We love you guys so much. I ease our first. He's a word of mouth thing thing. 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Trial by Media: the case of Millionaire Bob Ward

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Trial by Media: the case of Millionaire Bob Ward

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. The two things that I spend most of my time thinking about our true crime. Obviously, you're listening to this podcast and also how to look young forever. I wanna be Benjamin button. And that's why I love one of our sponsors, higher education, skincare, they just sent me a package of products and I am of sussed with them. So if you've never heard about them before they have products that are specifically formulated for jen's e girls. So that's us. Sorry, Billy all their products are backed by strong science, and our cruelty free paraffin free, gluten free and dermatologist approved and they have super cute packaging, and really cute product names, like study, buddy, easy, a and make out ready. And they have this amazing vitamin infused higher education cram session cream. It feels like heaven, and it has visit greeting called fractionation melanin which protects your skin from damaging HEB blue light that miss from all your devices. Never knew I had to protect my skin from that. So if you guys want to check out higher education, skincare user, code, I degree at checkout for twenty percent off your. I order, again, that's higher education skincare dot com and use our code first degree for twenty percent off. Degree degree those degree. First, the first degree. Things are supposed to have it in movies, not real life. And wait at at the table. That's an issue. And I knew what it was going to be. And of course when it was red. I mean, we were all devastated we just back down and cried and, and help each other, and I remember my dad was really stoic. And he just he took his watch and his wedding ring off, because he always wanted wedding rings and handed them to be attorney and the handcuffed him and took him away. And it was awful. But it's really, really hard to see summer take your data way. And there's nothing you can do about it. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanak. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter and next to Billy Johnson, who has a son fancy pair of socks on because it's not. No socks day anymore. It socks day, but you know what it is? What is that is that it's happy nylon? Stockings day, do with that. That's just like a sock. Thinner sock. It's just an extremely shittier locks for your whole lower, happier body. Yes. Of course I was going to bring up. He wanted to connect it to something related to that. Yeah. The Boston strangler who used nylon stockings to strangle most, if not all of his thirteen victims Alpert to salvo was convicted of this case, there is some controversy as to whether he was actually the, the Boston strangler or not. He never killed in prison. He did then he didn't. I don't know if he actually confessed or not. Yeah he did. And he also made like he was a weird guy. He actually made chokers. He did. Merch. He did his own Marci. He made chokers in jail. Now. Did he sell them to the outsiders? Can you do that? I don't know. I don't know how he did it. Maybe somebody. Yeah. Hey, you know what? If we ever get merged. She's very busy. You make the merch I'll make barely come. We didn't even know if it was gonna make you. We were like planning the day. We're like, oh, you bring this, this is the time, and he just doesn't respond where like I hope he's coming, and then he's just like I'm here, but he wasn't okay? That's enough of the banter, let's get into our case. Alexei elects asks pass not going on a shirt. Today, we're going to examine a concept that everybody's familiar with whether they know it or not, it's a phenomenon that has become so normalized to everybody. A term. We all know this concept of trial by media and generally, when cases fall into this category, we have opinions on the defendant's guilt, despite the fact that each defendant, has the right to a presumption of innocence, and we make opinions on these people's guilt, based on very little information based on very skewed information. Exactly, you basically have nothing about the investigation about the jurisdiction handling of the investigation about this person at all. But based on how the media feeds you the information you make a determination on, on almost nothing, right. And we see it all the time, we see it with Michael Jackson OJ, Casey, Anthony. And it's problematic for a lot of reasons. Media attention to a certain degree. Can make guilty people go free innocent people? Be convicted. You know, it's, it's just very problematic, and we're gonna just go over the implications of these trial by media situations using a specific case as our kind of case study. Right. And Billy wanting you explain how we got today's kit. Okay. So today's case came to be, I'm in the, the group drinker Reno's, which are murdering knows from by favorite murder. This woman wrote to me and the drinker, Reno's Griffin the trigger and his group is all people that talk about drinking, and it's, it's actually a really really great group of people very supportive of each other, and I gave somebody who had their first hangover, she's like, what do I do? And I, I my, my advice on how to cure a hangover I said, greasy food, etc. Pedialyte or Gatorade, ice, Gatorade and. I hope it worked. I don't know. I don't know. But anyway. Calibrating. So those are the drink arenas. Okay. This woman, contacted me within the drink around a group and said, can you cover this case, I felt it was perfect for our podcast here. So let's dive into it. Okay. Anyways. So. Sara is he reached out to us, and we are designing this episode with her experience in mind? It's going to be different than the others. But I think it'll be one of our most compelling because this case is stranger than fiction, so on the evening of September twenty first two thousand nine at eight pm Orlando police dispatcher received disturbing nine one one call. So police were dispatched immediately to the scene in question. The pulled up to a five point two million dollar seven bedroom nine bathroom home in Isleworth subdivision near Orlando, the same community where Tiger Woods Shaquille O'Neal in Arnold Palmer live. This is like a really upper yet very rich neighborhood. Obviously a five point two million dollar mansion. So when they get there they discovered a millionaire named Bob ward, standing outside on his phone, and he was the one who had made that schilling nine one one call. He advised the officers that his wife Diane was in their master bedroom. And no one else was inside the house. So at the scene, the police are observing things they see broken glass red stains on the patio the house, and the also notice red stains spattered on the back of Bob ward shirt upstairs near the north wall of the master bedroom, laying on her right? Outside was the dead body of his wife Diane ward, and she had a pool of blood around her head. She had a visible at hall on her forehead, and there was a gun that was found in a drawer of a bedside table. Bob was very calm. He explained to the police what happened. He told them that he walked into his room to go to bed for the night. Emma meshach to find his wife. Diane holding his three fifty seven magnum and she was threatening to kill herself. And then he said the gun accidentally went off when he was struggling to get it away from her. So as Bob was being questioned prese believed when they listen back to the nine one, one call and they listen to his account of events. I mean he said, one thing when he was at the house, and then he said, another thing at the police station. They believe his story was changing. But if you listen to nine one one call. He says, like I shot my wife, but if he thinks he wrestles it out of their her hand like I understand, you can't really take that as super literal necessarily takes up as, as a midst of guilt fashion. Right. And so, I think that's what they're doing in this case. Right. So the police didn't believe that Bob seemed upset enough about the death of his wife and. He seemed most concerned with damage control with his two daughters. Mallory and Sarah in, they were both away at college. And this is like the middle of the night. So when the police then asked about the stains in the back of his shirt, Bob asked is it blood? Or is it wine? And I think that's interesting because you would if it was want, you know, I think that says innocence to me, I don't know what do you how do you interpret that? Not knowing what it is, is kind of interesting. But anyways, it's neither here nor there. He then asked to speak to his attorney in the number wasn't a cell phone. They gave him his blackberry, and he called Liz green, but she's not a criminal attorney, but his bankruptcy attorney the integrity of this investigation. Bob's subsequent trial was really just hijacked by the media, and we're going to give Bob's daughter Sara, the platform that she's needed for a really long time to share this experience from her perspective, because I think what a lot of people don't realize in Casey, Anthony's a great example, these media firestorms don't just affect the defendant, think about what happened to Casey Anthony's parents. Oh my God. I believe Casey's Anthony's guilty, but her parents didn't necessarily deserve what they have ABS. Absolutely definitely. Exactly, so guilty or not. I mean other people get dragged through the mud and it's a it's a problematic kind of thing that occurs. My name is Darah wardrobe. I am Bob ward youngest daughter. I really want to be able to tell my dad story because I think for the past ten years, it's not Ben told appropriately. The media has turned him into some kind of monster has tranged this story into something that it's not. And we've never really gotten our fair shot to tell our side was somebody who will actually listen and take the time to understand who we are. Instead, it's just. Bob word kid, then there, mashed, and he has all this money. And it's not. That's not who we are as a people at certain who we are now or share and it's not who we were then. And my dad is an amazing person, and I want to be able to tell our story. So we're giving, Sarah, the pot form to address not only the media coverage. But also some of the circumstantial evidence that the prosecution was completely fixated on that they built their case on and ended up convicting their father on the murder of her mother. Diane and some defendants in cases that become this crazy media firestorm are undeniably guilty and some of them are innocent, but there is always damage that this kind of coverage can result in and, you know, we've seen it with Jayne Casey, Anthony, but also happens with innocent people, when it totally sabotages people's ability to get any sort of fair trial. Oh, yeah. Like you're never gonna find a juror. Or that's like I'm bias. Yeah. And so imagine Cirrus position this, too. It's like this is her mother and father what an impossible thing. So, of course, the first thing we asked her is how she heard about this. She was asleep at college when this happened. Her dad was terrified upset over the idea of telling her how did she find out? And what did she think? On September twenty second really early in the morning. I got a call from my sister. It was maybe six thirty my sister and I were both on athletic teams in college I was on a writing team. I saw Carolina and my sister was on the squash team. I Washington, and she had called me in a panic saying that I had to call caller auntie policy airy. She is my mom's sister. So I called her, and I was just told there's been an accident. I wasn't told any specifics, I was told the pack a bag and I had to get down to Jacksonville. And then they had a house in St Mary's Georgia, which is really dealt, Georgia. Honestly we just bounce around phone calls for a while. And I had no idea. Then it was we can't find your parents. We don't know what's happening. I was not told what had happened and I was told don't look at the media, which was super weird. Because in my mind. Just my parents are missing, which is also super strange. The whole thing, honestly, was such a nightmare and made it so much more. But it needed to be. But. Finally, my aunt told me that my mother had been shot, but didn't tell me she had passed. And I have not heard from my dad. I kept trying to call both my parents and finally, my sister called me, and I just asked her we'll is she dead. And my sister to be the one that said, yes, she was dead. And at that point, I still had no clue what had happened. I didn't even know. My dad was in custody until about ten AM, and that was when they had finally arrested him. I believe they just kept him in custody for a while. So they made a huge deal about the way my dad presented it to us. And in his defense, he wanted to do it the right way to kids me our world was about turned upside down, completely, and he wanted us to be told in as general as possible, and I am incredibly grateful for that, and it was my sister. I mean it didn't work out that way. But the fact that he wanted it to was really important to vote about. One of the most annoying nerve wracking and frustrating things is looking for new apartment or new home, and I actually used this tool website when I was looking for my new apartment. So I'm so glad that apartments dot com is sponsoring the first degree. So apartments dot com is the number one rental search site with the most listings of apartments, condos townhomes and houses. They have everything and apartments dot com has the cutting edge search tools to help you find your perfect place with ease apartments dot com. Verifies all their listings, which means they worked to keep up all the information and pricing up to date. So you're not wasting your time you can spend your time having an apple spritz on a rooftop, like I do apartments dot com has custom search tools, if you're looking for something specific like a pet friendly home or commute friendly. They have all their search tools on hand. So you're not wasting your time. So go check out apartments dot com now and change your apartment, change the world. One thing that the media really harped on was some of the things Bob said or didn't say during some of his questioning sessions, his interrogation sessions. What have you after he was brought down to the police station? What? Okay. I have two kids in college. But we probably need to go away right here. It was an accident. And. Tell you more about it later. But, you know it was a very tragic accident. So this is the kind of case that newspapers and local media dream of it's, it's, it's rich people and murder, if it is murder, if her as an accident, but still, they're just like we're all about this. That's why Jon Benet is one of the biggest cases we've ever seen Menendez Menendez when they are rich. It's something that particularly it's there, there's a voyeuristic aspect. That's a lot more interesting for the media than if it's somebody that is even even just middle class normal per. So Bob ward. He's a wealthy commercial real estate developer, and they had homes in multiple states. They had two beautiful daughters, Sarah and Mallory. So this development where this occurred is the same one where the notorious tiger. Woods. Elon car crash slashed golf club incident incident occurred. Yeah. So the big four ABC, NBC, CBS, and Fox News and CNN, and they are Landau sentinel, who did a series on the saga Atlanta Constitution, Florida TV stations, even the UK mirror as their want to do, they're going to jump all over this tragedy. And they did. They were expecting this to be like, vinick, st-, Jon Benet pretty much made it. So right now, one report stated for. Begum quote ward was an upbeat mood and very relaxed when detectives talked to him at the Orange County sheriff's office headquarters on the night. His wife, Diane was shot and killed even though ward had blood on his shoes. He smiled when he was told his wife had pronounced had been pronounced dead. He side, how irresponsible is this? Never. Really, that's why we put that excerpt in there just to show like this is that is not straightforward report. It and know that is that's like a nice fictional. Who's to say? What a smile is like, you know, people smile when they're uncomfortable people smile when they're like, oh, my life. Like I just think it's so you know, you don't look at this until you're presented with somebody's actual experience. Because you hear this reporting and people just believe it, and then you're like, oh, what a purely Cal callous asshole. Yeah. So it seems that the police had essentially arrested Bob because they said the facts were lining up in a story. Like I said that a story change multiple times. And but really the primary reason they believed he was guilty was due to how his behavior was calm collected and really not being concerned, much with other than how children react to the news. And that is odd to people. I mean he didn't seem distraught over his wife other than. It was a horrible accident and kind of mortified over it. But he it is strange. No. And I had asked you this question earlier, because I was listening to the nine one one call. And I'm like it was weird. But then, again, you have to think about how everybody handles grief shock and loss. So different about things about the biggest cases are, but thing, but the biggest cases that we've seen Amanda Knox. She was doing cartwheels she's being weird. Grabbed boyfriend kissing her boyfriend. She was innocent. Yeah. Damien echols. Basically, just kind of like giving the finger to authorities in being all kind of like metal and punk rock and he was innocent. It's just the like you don't know how you're going to react to this stuff. And those are those are people that weren't actually there. This guy was right there when it happened. What this is that if he did it, don't you think he'd be trying to act sad to put on an act like oh shit. I need to cover up what I've done better, at least, like surp- service, freaking out. I think he was just being authentic. Yeah. Like, otherwise, if he was calculated if he was a psychopath, who killed his wife, he'd be like got to play the part got beat sad husband. A tear feel like he's just like a type a brain where he's the children fares in I gotta do that, like need to call off, like his grief. I don't know because I think if he had done it, he would have been trying to act either way, again it's like you just don't know how your brain is going to react to things that are very. Very like overwhelming like that. For example, it hap- I was listening to a podcast yesterday and this woman walked in on her children dead. Her husband, killed them, and she was on the phone line, one in did not know her address it had lived there forever. And it's like when you're rain shuts off when you're in a status shock, you stop being aware of how you're being perceived. I think you're kind of like when you're. Oh, I'm assuming your emotions either, get skewed or dwindled or whatever because it's a fight or flight kind of thing with Shaq. Absolutely your goes into this shut down. So I think, yeah, judging somebody on how they are dealing with an immediate. Like like with a traumatic thing. Yeah. On fair. So I heard the nine one one call pretty thing after I found out that my dad had been arrested and even I had no idea what was happening, honestly. My dad is having issues at the company at the time I thought that someone had come in and shot my mom from my dad's competitors. I did not think anything like this time. So when I found out he was arrested in the fourth after everyone don't look at the news. The first thing I went was looked at the news. And I think the first article that I saw with titled Bob ward, and then quoted I just shot my wife this was after I had spoken to my coach and had left, my dorm, my team, I was given a lot of Vanak to calm down, which wasn't great. I wasn't. Thinking straight by that point. So this is the first time I've ever admitted that to anyone other than my family. But when I saw that I thought he was guilty. And I know that and I know how much he loved my mom to this day and loved her. She was an is his soulmate. And I know you didn't do it, but you're reading in the news something he struck and it just as I just dropped my wife and then talked about how he's built being a terrible person. And there's pictures of him in handcuffs thought you'd think about and I may maybe ten minutes later, I was like, wait a second. This is completely insane. There's no what he would do this. And he didn't we jumped on that, quote, I my wife and I don't blame them. I mean don't guilty to me for sure. But the phone call actually about ten minutes long and they didn't talk about how my dad had in a panic accidentally dial four one one instead of nine one one and he said, there's been a horrible accident, something happened. I then shot. I mean he went through everything before he said that finally they transferred him over to the number one operators, and still, I mean, it's been a few minutes at that time until no one was coming. He was not getting any answers to win help would arrive. And finally, he just blurt out. I just shot my wife next. And you know you can. I mean. Styron's Brin driveway. He said that everyone's oh, shit sorry they're like, well, oh my God. He's got something serious here. But I mean that minute and you never, ever know you're going to react in any kind of situation. So soon as I heard the entire call takes threats to my family and there's no way he would ever do that. He was in shock, so finish she was shot, obviously, he knew she was dead because of that. But there's no way you can survive dot and he wasn't getting any kind of help, and he's sitting there it happened in the master bedroom. She invited the foot of at their bed, and the love this life. He just wanted help and no one was giving it to them. So to the shock of everyone who knew the couple Bob was indicted for secondary murder, everyone was horrified. The cops roped off the word home to search for physical evidence. Okay. I was told about just how savy the house was after my dad was released on bond. So when he was combined, I actually dropped out of school, but at the master to spend time within the house that we lived in Isleworth big house that used to be on Arnold Palmer's house. It's in a really beautiful nice neighborhood in Windham here, which is in Orlando though when the cops. Heard, you know all there's a murder, and I'll work it was a big thing, so after they, they take in, they put him in the cop car. They went through the house, and they start finally analyzing the scene. Well. You know, a month or two later, we're going through all of our bills, and stuff when we were finally allowed back in the house. They had rented porn on our TV, and we haven't times damned in it was after my dad had already been in custody. The only people that could have done it were crime facts was there, and they stole thousands of dollars in cash for my mom's purse, they still thousands of dollars in jewelry. The health had an elevator in it, which they busted up. They took a hammer to are really nice grill outside ruined bat. I mean, they trashed this house, and there was no reason for it. They also missed evidence. There was another one glass that they did not find that I found later from that night that matched the y you acid, they said my mom's through my dad, which didn't have, then she trip it was another bushes on next to the girl that they broke. I mean they just went out. I mean they still purses tool ratios sunglasses cash. They just trashed it. I don't care about the cash unfair about the house. I care about my mom's belongings with important to me. But the fact that they went in our watching porn is insane. I don't know why they would do it. I mean, I'm sure. As the point. I mean who knows? But that's probably they were there late at night had nothing else to do as tracking. Now they claim they were looking for drugs. My parents have never been involved in drugs ever. I mean, there was no proof of that at all also. Why would that buzzy? Just, hey, hammers to stuff. I don't get that first dealing things. I mean, they could get away with it, it was cashing my mom's purse, you know, we can't prove the cash was there. You know it was there 'cause she kept about ten thousand dollars in cash, who needs that much on them, as I don't understand it, but she did? And we all knew it. So, you know, there's no way for us to prove that. And the jewelry do have like a list, and everything that was insured. So we know that the jewelry was stolen, but we couldn't do anything about it because the copper after after the body was removed we had a parrot cat one cat and four dogs. They would not allow us to remove the animals from the residents. We had a friend in Orlando maller, and I hadn't gotten there yet that was willing to take them all in, and they let them in the house. They wouldn't let us come get them. They did let our friend go in and feed them through the garage, but they wouldn't let us take them out of the house and not just screams contamination. To me. I mean they're running all over the place running through the crime scene. Wow. Right. And I think what's interesting in, in so frustrating, probably for Sarah in Mallory is that they're finding out about things like this. Their dad is in custody. Their college age kids like they have no one to advocate for this investigation into help. Draw attention to this, these mishaps in this investigation. It's I can't imagine what, what does the like. I don't know about you. But the perfume that I wear is such an individual and identifying for me that I really always wanna wear perfumes that I feel good about. And I feel like explain me as a human, and, you know, it gets expensive trying to buy full bottles of perfume that you might not like after a few weeks. So that's why I love one of our sponsors send bird, so Szemberg is a luxury fragrance subscription service for perfumes and colognes. And it's a way for you to discover new perfumes and colognes with out buying an entire bottle and wasting all your money. They have more than four hundred fifty designer brands for you to choose from, and that includes product on Ford for Saatchi, dull J, 'gabon it, and you can try the brands you want, and it's the real deal. So you choose the perfume, you wanna try, and they'll send you a thirty day supply, that's hundred twenty sprays enough to apply more than four times daily for an entire month. And if you're not sure what type of sent you want, they can help you search by brand Sal occasion season, and more. So if you wanna try. Sent bird and get fifty percent off your first month that's only seven dollars and fifty cents per fragrance. Go to Semper dot com slash first degree and use promo code first-degree again that's fifty percent of your first order by going to Semper dot com slash first, are- and user code. I agree. Alexa is the only one with breaking news, make sure hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news minute. If you like the first degree you're going to love creating confidence with Heather Monaghan on podcast, one each week, the bestselling author and entrepreneurs is down to help you create your confidence pursue your dreams and leapfrog, the villains, you'll meet along the way download new episodes of creating confidence with Heather Monaghan every week on apple podcasts and podcast. One. So the evidence that they did end up having was not that much. There was no trace of gunshot residue on. Bob's. Hands only Diane's prints were on the trigger. Bob San was on the barrel, which supported his story that he took the gun out of her hands after she fired the shot. And it was later placed on the nightstand. Which is where it was found. And a lot of this evidence was circumstantial, and they were fixated on Bob's demeanor. In what he said in that nine one, one call. So the police start to dig into the lives of Diana, and Bob ward, and they learned that he was being sued by insurance company, that accused him of taking more than twenty million dollars from the sale of lots and subdivisions. He was building in Tennessee in two thousand seven now this insurance company, which had issued these bonds for the subdivisions said ward was supposed to use the money to improve the subdivisions. But instead, he used it to pay off debts and actually went on a spending spree, including using the money to buy that eight thousand eight hundred square foot mansion and I'll worth, but something caught their attention. Diane was slated to be deposed in those lawsuits three days after the incident occurred. So they immediately pinned on that. And I said, wow, this could be motive for murder. Listen, they're searching for a motive they were watching this guy. They saw the blood on him. They saw what his demeanor, they heard the nine one one. Call. So they're going in saying this guy did it. Yeah. So now they're trying to prove they're looking for something. And where can we find we find motive and then they say, bingo, it's like you can get case around anybody for anything in the polices defense. It's usually the husband, it will usually is in. That's the thing it's in you can't you can't fault police for not having an open mind, but nine times out of ten to odds in their favor that it is the husband one, it's not. Yeah. Sure, but this seems obvious. And that's the problem with that, like this seems like an obvious like open shut thing, but it's clearly much more convoluted than what the media has portrayed it to be. And that's really the point here. Then the police interviewed Bob boards. Brother-in-law Glenn stare. And Glenn was married to Paula who's Diane's sister. So Glenn told investigators that Bob had not received a paycheck in more than a year his in-laws lived in. One of his developments in Georgia and ran the homo homeowners association there. And he also told the investigators that Bob had repeatedly said that he should put a gun to his own head to get the family out of the financial difficulties that he created. But told investigators he didn't believe Bob or his wife, Diane would ever do anything to hurt themselves in Bob never said anything about wanting to hurt his wife or showed any aggression or anything like that towards his wife in this is technically the wife's family. Yeah. So if anyone was gonna throw under the bus, it would be them. He also said that ward, Bob ward, put it with things from his wife that Sarah would not have put up with. But he didn't really elaborate on what that meant. Guess what? My dad was. I mean he was worried. He was concerned scary things changing. But it wasn't the end of the world. There was definitely more stress, but my mom walked it. I mean, she was I see her for weeks at a time fell into this crazy depression. She was drinking, and she always drank, but I mean this was. I didn't want her coming to show that it will my friends, it was embarrassing. And I didn't realize. She was on area presence. I knew she was on medication because I had to remind her like take your pills, but I know what she was on. And I knew she would take magic and forget, he took them into them again, or just take them again for fun. I, I don't know. But I mean, I'm nineteen in my world, I'm like, well, parents know, best, though, she's doing whatever invest for her, and she was devastated about this happening. And she from nothing to the fact that. I think having money was the big thing for her. She was very. And my mom was a lovely woman. I'm grateful. I love her miss her. She was my best friend, but dictator hard, this was rough and developed its lifestyle around Shelvin workers. Go and. Golf blacks and wine and drink, and watch, and everyone wanted to hang out, Diane, I mean, it was it was fun, my style. And I don't think she wanted to leave that. So here's some info about how Bob had made his millions. He was the CEO of Landry sources in managed to hundred fifty employees. Oversaw the development of thirty five subdivisions in nineteen resort style communities, including the one near the Cumberland island national seashore. The thousand acre Cumberland, harbour marina complex is built after years of legal battles between developers and environmentalists in Georgia. And they moved from Atlanta where they had met years before in two thousand seven and Bob's company land resources relocated there. And the company eventually was forced into chapter eleven bankruptcy protection and this actually plays into the motive for the media as well. And how how you can paint this guy's available. Yeah, let's remember when, when this was going on. What was going on at this time we're seeing the financial downturn because of the housing crisis. Yeah. And everybody was looking for a villain for this to two months later. He switched that filing to chapter seven. Which also led to all liquidation of all the company act assets. And then during that time of the filing he told the Atlanta Journal constitution that it was because of the real estate downturn. He said he wasn't making enough money on sales to complete promise projects, and, and he was selling the assets, which is, which were valued at one hundred fifteen point two million dollars, according to the bankruptcy records and the Atlanta Braves actually were were one of the company's creditors. So you're seeing this as a potential perfect villain for the media. You're we're, we're in this in this, the awful recession one of the worst that we've seen in our lifetimes. And let's let's get one. One of these guys exactly in so throughout all of this throughout the scrutiny, he was facing and after his arrest, he maintained that his wife was trying to kill herself. He would not bend on that he was he conviction in, in this story in the reason cited for the depression in subsequent suicide attempt that Diane was experiencing was this financial instability that they were facing. And although they were still living in their five point two million dollar home. They were bankrupt they hadn't made a mortgage payment in almost a year in their mortgages, seventeen thousand per month. Oh, gosh. So, you know, like Billy said, made his, he made his riches near the height of this real estate, boom. And it was there was a massive quick downturn and some people take that kind of stuff harder than others. In the reporting, I saw which I'm not sure we can trust. But a lot of. Bob supporters said he was just totally upbeat about it. And that's I n was not taking it. Well. And you know everyone handles differently. My dad worked really hard to take care of family. I didn't really know much of this is happening because she was away at college and to this day. It's like I didn't even know any of this, but I remember one time it was around thanksgiving. My dad was living in Florida. Because the company had moved to Florida my sister was at school. So it was just me and my mom, and it had been week since I had seen her, and I'd taken that your office school. And I didn't hear for weeks and called my dad, she'd to be a mom. I don't know what's going on. But I haven't seen her and he didn't know she was gone. It was weird because she was still answering the phone for him. So he didn't know anything was up. And then we had a really hard time. And then by the summer, she kind of calm down a little bit. She backed off drinking red wine. And then the week before she died. I saw her drinking red wine again. And when she didn't grow wine, she got nuts, like I mean, she was in four bottles easy. It was crazy. And. I just remember her checking red wine at that horse show. I saw her before she died in my best. Not right. Like she's doing that. An autopsy was conducted on Diane, and they determined that. There are two kinds of antidepressants and wine in her system. And these were drugs that you weren't supposed to be drinking on the gunshot wound was essentially between her eyes on her forehead area. They opted to not conduct tests like taking samples from under her fingernails, but they said this decision was made because there didn't appear to be a struggle. But the crime scene analyst did say that there was a struggle on the patio the home so there there is a contradiction there. The medical examiner classified the death is murder thinking that would it would have been difficult for Diane ward to have shot herself, citing that the gunshot was said to be fired from eighteen inches away. What's another interesting thing, just on the heels of that is that what I read a lot too, was, they were so fixated on the fact that women do not shoot themselves, and they were like women. Don't shoot themselves and they definitely don't do it in the head or in the face. Ace wrote, but they're not taking into account his story where it's like made on this. It was a struggle in the gun went off in. Of course, she idiot wasn't. She wasn't pointing the gun to our forehead like on purpose. Kind it was. Oh my God. She killed herself. It wasn't. When it first happened. All of this has been an accident. There's just there's just been a non Senate for some reason she was playing with gun. My mom did not like guns. She, she likes having them for my dad to have protection, but she didn't like the handle them. So I was like, well, that's weird. But and then it started to kinda dawn on me. She was really angry at my dad. She was really angry. She blames the company taking on him and everything that was happening on him and really nothing that bad happening to us. We were going to be fine. But she's angry at him. And I remember seeing, I remember. You know that. Like I said that summer, she is genuine red line, but I remember coming home one time, and she slammed the door in his face blue passing on the car and drove off. I mean she's just been screaming how to she was really angry. So. Honestly, what I think happened is. I know happened, this part is she got drink way too much took way too many bills, then know what she was doing. And I think she tried to kill my dad and then try to tell herself. And then. And. My dad is we all. Are we all handled done marrying her whole life? And when you are someone facing with the gun, you know, you grab the wrist and twists. So in my dad's mind, you probably thought that he did something wrong at first, but he was. Holding a gun to his face his DNA's triggers, if you didn't pull the trigger they didn't have gunshot residue on him. There wasn't right behind where the gunshot is kinda blows back. And we're not have it didn't the prize the other time I guess is what I'm trying to say that this is something she could do after the behavior is seen fast year. Her disappearing her screaming her meltdown. And then I found out how many till she taken if she hasn't been shot in the face, she would have died that night, regardless. We were told that and down, she would have died of an overdose. Every car comes with its share of stories but ding on your bumper. When you nervously picked up a first date the luxury package. You got off to a big promotion or the mal that you save reading your bike all summer. I've never done that. But whatever while you can't put a price on your story is now with truecar you can at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell or trade it in just go to truecar and simply enter your license plate number in, watch hire. Cars details. Pop-up then answer a few questions to have navigated and moon roof watches, they bump up your value. If you have high mileage, you already know that's gonna cost you. But, you know just how much at dings your wallet? So you can plan ahead. Once you're finished you'll get a true cash offer in minutes that you can take to a local certified dealer to cash out or trade in. So when you're ready to experience better way to sell or trade in your car, check out truecar today and truecar cash offer is not available in all areas. So Bob was in jail waiting for his bail hearing to approach and his daughter. Mallory in Diane sister, Paula visited him and this particular jail. They record the calls in video visits, and it's kinda like they record both ways really strange. But the media started pumping out in running probably minutes of this recorded visit print news described it like this in a video released by the jail. The sixty one year old modeled his blue jail jumpsuit, danced started to unbutton his shirt, he chatted about, who would make a good character witness, whether we could buy anti-dam shampoo at the jail connoisseur, and even where the family should celebrate thanksgiving, his daughter, and sister-in-law giggled blind the seriousness of the accusation against him, so they basically describing this interaction, they're just having one minute of it. Yeah. In this jailhouse meeting with his daughter and wife sister. He can be seen laughing and dancing in the hour and a half of video three joke around nearly the entire time. There's money in the account for you to get stuff. There's all sorts of goodies you can buy a bra. So I was thinking that, you know you'd enjoy that and. Right cream. The lifestyle towards rest. He's had two visits from his sister-in-law and one of his daughters. Way should turn out. Wants to five. I'm really not worried about our big story coverage of this continues with west who's Amanda over. And Amanda the behavior in these tapes, just seem so out of place when jail visit videos released earlier showed Bob ward pretending to do a strip dance and his daughter dancing for him as well. What do we find on the latest video more strange antics? My dad my mom died on a Monday. My dad was arrested Tuesday morning. We finally able to see them on Wednesday. By that weekend. I had left Orlando. I'm the kind of person when things go wrong. I need to just move by needs to be on the move. I need to go somewhere, my sister and my aunt went to visit. They were able to go. Visit my dad that weekend are only told us on the phone in visit don't talk about your mom. You can't talk about Kate. All about any of that. China beat that it's gonna make it worse for him. You know, he's already in a horrible situation. That's what we were cold. So my sister goes in and all they wanna do cry. Everything's awful. And the visitors forty five minutes long visit is hard enough as it is. You know, you're, it's the first time they had seen him and I can't say in person, because it running, but we're able to communicate and see other visually since our live returned up down. And they were having a really hard time with it. They laugh. For two minutes, the rest of the time they were crying, well as my aunt and my sister, walks out of the jail. They were pounded with media, and they walk the cops come out and hand CD's or DVD's every reporter, they had already burned DVD's of the visit and hit the mountain, by the time I hit my sister left. So it was, of course, on the news that night, and of course, they ignored the forty four minutes, forty three minutes. They were crying. And they played the two minutes where they had two minutes to try to be a family and try to be normal, and they played that my sister was devastated. I mean she still has a hard time with it today. He got hounded by crazy people online at school. I mean they were calling her awful person, and that she's having some weird relationship with our dad, my aunt devastated. Because we're sisters on, and now they're things he's horrible. And so they funded as well. They all wanted Diane dead so that they have all the money. It was nuts. It was completely made up not they said we had fifty million dollars life insurance on her. So we all wanted her dead. We had no insurance on her not. And even if we did. You can put a fight on your mother. So what I think is really crazy. Is that the media was kind of dragging? Sarah's aunt Paula Diane sister into all of this, too. And. One of the detectives on the case detective Brian cross so that he spoke with Paula Diane sister in that. When he told Paul that her sister was dead in that, Bob ward, we charged with her death. Paula apparently said just make it an accident. She said that, Bob ward had been under a lot of stress and the -tective cross explained the Diane, did not die as a result of an accident. And according to the investigation report. Seir policier asked if cross could make it an accident. If you talked to war just one more time. And they ran this in reporting. And it's like she believes he's innocent. It's not like make an accident like corrup- win wink. She's like it's an accident. And she was just pleading in. I hate how they manipulate us. And again, we're not experts, we don't know who's guilty or innocent, but next time you read an article look at this verbiage, and just really try to decide whether or not it's unbiased, another thing that was really interesting is then also this is all imprint cracked print. Yes, what this is all imprint. So that's the thing that's the inflection of how she was saying. It could have been a million different ways. But when you're reading something and print, you're only hearing at the way that you want to hear it, so exactly. But then they started to run information that was really just further trying to discredit Paula. And I'm not really sure where they're going with this because it's like she's obviously not a suspect. So are you trying to make the whole family look like no malicious? I what do you think she's getting out of defense? Her brother-in-law? Right. So then they started to run how she had once worked for Bob's company and was making five hundred thousand dollars a year, which just makes her look like she wants something which what motive what she had for this doesn't make any sense to me. But this is what they're doing. This is more information than feeding into this narrative. Employed by my dad, and she did make a ton of money. She worked her ass off. My aunt was the top failed for my dad down in Cumberland island or come Lynn harbor. I mean she was your ass off. He didn't make what she made because she worked for my dad, she made what you made because she worked hard and I'm really proud of my aunt for that. Again though. It goes along with their narrative of a lot of people that you have an economic downturn and then you have rich people. And then here's this other rich person part of this. That was making five hundred thousand dollars back guy. But I just don't understand. It's like if you're trying to make it seem like Bob did it what they're just trying to discredit the sister. The news, the news isn't necessarily trying to make it seem like Bob did it. But they're just they are. But they're throwing what they're what they're doing is, they're painting pictures, and the pictures that they're painting. Here are rich people, and it's not just this one person. It's also her sister was was getting money off of this guy to me. It's like the idea that this sister is in angry at him just. They believe him. They believe in him like you wouldn't enlists. You're just derail, unless they're trying to paint that the sister had to do with it still. I mean that's crazy that we don't even know what picture, they're trying to paint grasping at straws throwing throwing a bunch of stuff against the wall, and hoping the readers will will will figure out what sticks that's often very right, dress to totally. So Bob, eventually, did get to his bail hearing and he was he was allowed out on bail for a hundred grand. And, you know, if you look at the footage of his release, it's like Princess Diana, like being swarmed by 'paparazzi issue. He was required to wear an ankle monitor and stay within three hundred feet of his home, but truly just watching them swarm this car in, then he was he went to seven eleven to get like some drinks to take back to his house because he's on house arrest. Because somebody drove him they were like following on with a helicopter. It's just like you guys are just adding fuel to this this beast. But all the while while this was happening. The family is still. Porting that even even mums family supporting today, three weeks after his arrest ward posted its one hundred thousand dollar bond and walked out of the Orange County jail into a throng of reporters west us over joins us live at Amanda. You spoke to ward after he was fitted with a GPS monitor. Well, I tried to speak to Bob board. But he said, absolutely nothing to reporters as we shouted questions at him. Now tonight he is back in his Isleworth mansion. But with one big difference, he has a monitoring bracelet slapped around his ankle. Sarah and her family, and Diane's family. And Bob's family would continue to support him throughout this entire process. And if you think things are crazy, and you're looking kind of at reporting in general under a new in a new light based on what you've heard it only gets crazier at the trial phase, and it is that trial phase, the subsequent, aftermath that we will be covering. In part to in just Sarah's going to be with us every step share her experience, and really sharing the injustice that at the very least occurred due to the treatment of her dad, her mom story and her story, by the media, and I've found a thousand examples, proving this point improving what Sarah's saying that, you know, at the very least this is not an equation for a fair trial. And the judicial process is, is very affected by this kind of sensationalism in media coverage, and, Sarah, you are, like I am ever since I've been thinking about this. I've been like on the brink of tears. I think you're so strong amazing. And we feel honored to be able to share your story because obviously, nobody has been able to share it correctly. And he did say Crimewatch daily was the best did the best job. Out of all ability. And this was when you were still there belly. And we talked to people Alexis talks to people the time and. Especially since we're talking about the media and we are part of the media. Yeah. And you, you don't see the devastation that has left. Yeah. You don't you don't destruction. Also, not the media, that's controlled by the higher ethers. Like we are other media, that's controlled by the government, that is I gotta say, in like, that is the beauty of the new media in hot casting, and YouTube and things like that in that we're not incentivized by politics or higher ups or whatever, like we say, what we want and it is an incredible platform. And that's why I haven't said, I was like all help you. I'll put you in touch with book, people like I will help you. I mean, I can't imagine living so much of your life being like so absolutely. Like, not only did you experience the biggest tragedy in the world and lose both your parents. But then, to have everybody that you love vilified like that, and have nobody here, your story out, only that, just a confusion of being angry at your mom. When you just lost our because you feel like your dad's being railroaded, and it's not even your mom who wanted that to happen. It's the police who did it. The mom, just was in pain in was suffering from depression, wanted to enter life, which is horrible and tragic. But, like then you lose your dad and then you've got this anger at your mom when it's like she was, she was in pain, you know, and just reconciled that Sarah is incredibly inspiring person. Yeah. To mallory. We didn't interview you, but you did not get a fair shake in the media will, Sarah. Thank you so much for reaching out to Billy. And if anybody else. Listening, the house like a similar story or was connected to a story that you do not think was shown correctly, in the media or was never told fully we would love to share your story and that platform for you to speak freely. So please reach out to us on Instagram at the first degree adults linkletter at Jak Vanik, or Email, people still emailing us not as much. Unless actually you check it. I, I never because you it's the only one of my inboxes that gives me a notification deleted off your. He don't respond. You read it. You don't respond in that. I never know what. What? I just wanna get that, like, whatever so reach out to us we'd love to tell your story and. Come to crime us our code degree. Nineteen for ten percent off your badges coming out with us, say, hi have drinks and until next week keep your friends close, but not that close. Trump and trade. I'm Tim Maguire the AP newsman at the Trump administration was draws terrorists and steel aluminum from Canada Mexico, both countries say, they'll lift retaliatory tariffs on US goods clearing a hurdle for new trade agreement between the three nations. President Trump says the end of the terrace is good for all three countries, spin, charging us extremely high tariffs as much as two hundred eighty five percent or more for our agricultural products. The Missouri house passes a ban on abortions. Eight weeks of pregnancy. Governor Mike Parsons, I've been pretty clear where I've been from day, one on right to life. Several other states have also passed so called fetal heartbeat laws. Today's action follows Alabama's passage of a Bill making performing an abortion felony in nearly all cases. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin has defied a subpoena from House Ways and means committee chairman. Demanding six years of President Trump's tax returns committee, chairman Richard Neal says they're likely to go to court next week. I'm Tim Maguire.

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Terra Newell

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Terra Newell

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. So I've been traveling a lot lately, and every time that I'm in the airport, I get stopped because somebody loves my luggage, and this is so exciting for me because these are another sponsor that came on that I've actually purchased from and I am obsessed with their products. And that is a way suitcases. So a ways is high quality materials while offering a much lower price point compared to other brands by cutting out the middleman, which we love and selling directly to you. So you save money while getting really great quality products. You can choose from nine colors and four sizes. They have carry on's they've checking bags they have everything that you could ever want, and all their suitcases, or made the premium German polycarbonate unrivalled in strength and impact resistance. So it's not to get dinged up in two flights the interior features a patent pending compression system helpful for over Packers, which is me because every time I travel, it's at the first time I've gone on a dang flight. So if you guys want to check out a way suitcases go to away travel. Dot com slash degree to get twenty dollars off your first suitcase, that's Awa y T. R A, V E, L dot com slash degree per twenty dollars off your suitcase. Degree degree close to a degree. I the first degree. You think? You're supposed to happen in movies, not real life. So I ended up we ended up like toss lean a little bit and the knife fell onto the floor and he's just welling on me and he had the knife in a del taco bag. So out I, I didn't understand. I was getting stabbed. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter next. Billy johnson. And we have an extra special guest in the studio. And this is a rare occurrence. It doesn't happen often. I think it's only happened once for us in the beginning. Right. We have Tara Newell from, I don't know if you've listened to it dirty, John podcast. It's one of the most infamous podcasts about true crime. I think that has ever been, it was certainly one of the best I've ever heard. Yeah. And so, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, guys, so much for having me, your making me feel so special special you cannot get us, like out of Hollywood to go to a podcast. So those the big deal Beverly Hills in traffic is pretty special. It is pretty special. And also one of yeah. And you're one of the biggest bad asses incher crime because you are an amazing survivor, and now thrive her and, and your story is incredibly amazing. Yeah. Inspirational to you pretty much every women on the face of this earth. Yeah. And man, right. And man to yeah. You don't have to be a woman to, to, to be inspired, honestly, when I was listening to your to your podcast. But when I was listening to the part of the podcast, where that was playing out, I was so overwhelmed and the idea, I mean, it didn't cross my mind that you would ever be on ours. But I'm just so happy, you are because that you guys it's unbelievable. You are this tiny, beautiful angel angel person honestly, and it's like the idea that you were able to do what you did overwhelms. We're gonna jump into your already jump. I'm gonna cry. But okay. So before we get to our day, just want to say, crime Khanna's in two days, we're going to be there on podcast. Ro Billy's also doing a panel. But Tara's going to be there as well. And you're going to be doing a panel and a luncheon and all this stuff, right? Yeah. And having drinks us, they end becoming our new best friend. Yes. What are you doing at crime cotton? I we are doing a panel in talking about cohorts of control with ler Richards in my mother supper, Newell. And then we aren't doing a luncheon where guests can come in do like one on one meet and greet with us and get to know us in just us us any questions, they may have a nice little meet-and-greet, cool. So please come and visit us, it'll be so fun. But what day is it Billy? So use our code degree. Nineteen for ten percent off your passes. Happy festival popular delusions day. What does that even mean so abstract to that? That's the one I pick for the day. I already know I love it. But it's also an you'll appreciate this, Jack happy, national attitude day. Jack stay. I do have an attitude. I am the SAS Queen. You really have to say. So thank you for my day, and it's also nationally veggie burger day, too. But with well what is your favorite day Tara on that one? And this one here, you can hear what's resonating. Here's choose your own dad. What is resonating with you? National attitude day because I felt like every woman should have a little bit of attitude, and even like a man. I don't think many just sit down. Need to listen you're a gay man. You know, like all they like sit down, and I'm like, okay. Standing is exhausted. Tired? I will have to see I think you have one, you want to pull up a chair for me. Thanks. All right. Okay. So we're doing this podcast, a little bit different because terrorism, the studio and also because I'm assuming if you guys are listening to this podcast. You probably know your story already. So we wanted to just get a new perspective, and we obviously, when we're listening to the podcast, watching the show. We had a bunch of questions that we wanna ask you, if we ever had you in front of us. So that's kind of what this podcast is going to be. But I will do a little bit of a summary of the dirty John story. So we are going to start we have many questions and some of our listeners had questions and each of us have our own questions, but we want to start in somewhat of a chronological order. So as far as the beginning of this story, the beginning of this chapter, the dirty John chapter talk about the moment you met this person in what you knew in what your instincts were in try to remain in. Those moments and not in hindsight, because, like I impress course because obviously knowing what, you know, now I mean, it's easy to have that all blend together. But truthfully when you met him was there were there alarm bells going off, while I, I gotta say, like I don't typically, like a lot of my mom's boyfriends or significant others. She just doesn't have the best picker sometime. I mean honest that resonates. And so whenever I would meet them I just kind of go into already like judging them. Yeah. And so I went there and I drove all the way from Vegas to stay with my mom because she was moving to the Balboa place. And. I just remember meeting him with my ex-boyfriend now the time and John was trying to put match us on the car, and he seemed to really be struggling. And so my ex-boyfriend went and like helped him and max boyfriend how to cast at the time. So at, like kind of looked like Tweedle Dee and trying to put a mattress on top of the car. So I was just like okay that's interesting. But like not judging because. You know, you can't judge so in for not being able to put a mattress on shop of card. Yeah. And then I go to meet him, and he just doesn't really introduce himself at first, and then my mom coming out comes down. She introduces hers like significant other to us and it was like, oh, this is John and John. This is my daughter Tara. I'm so excited for you guys meet each other, and we met each other, and it was just like okay like. We're on ya. Yeah. And then we get to the Balboa Hollis, and we unload, the Styve she kept talking about how much he loved dogs so much, and that he was so much like me. And I was just like okay like, here's my dogs. Here's me, three dogs, like, say Hello to them. And he likes us high. But, like, what am I dog, she's just like, well, it's a porter Cawley, first of all, they have like a little ADHD, and if some RMC they're like the smartest dogs are, and so, like the dog seen high the dog like on the ground with dog and my dog was just like putting. It's head in the air like China look, other places. So I didn't think too much into that because I was like, well, he's a busy dog, like he's just probably wants to run around. And then. We ended up going out to dinner and we went to CBK California pizza kitchen. Well, we know girl. Yes. And he paid bills prize Lee. But, like whenever I would ask him questions dinner, he just didn't seem like he wanted to engage in the conversation and to give full answers like he wanted to give close in answer where it was not leading to anything more. Do you think he was doing that because he didn't wanna like revealed too much about him since he was, obviously, like making a lot of shut up. More. The more you talk, the more the more you can somebody story, right? And the more that he'd have to remember when he has to top again. He didn't want to get to know us in. He didn't care to get to know us. Well, and that's the thing when you're encountering something that there are a few options. Hey, they're not that smart. And they can't hold a conversation. Be they're insecure. See they don't. Or it's the. They don't want to. It's intentional. They're, they're shutting this conversation down on purpose. And those are generally, the three things you're working with when you encounter people like this. Right. And I'm an idiot, I always get people who benefited, I'm like, oh, they're insecure. They're dumb, but it's like no calculated. Exactly what they're not doing that. Okay. So you meet him for the first time, and then one of the first red flags start to show and were or when did you just start feeling that like in your gut this guy's been weird? Well is were were were those any red flags at all? Oh, art. This guy shifty, I normally don't like any way so friends anyway. And that's it one of the signs was him not wanting to look in the eyes direct and him not being able to hold on a conversation. Because normally when you date someone and they have kids, you wanna get to know their kids because they're a part of this person. Right. And so anyone that has. Else of empathy or anything in them, then they're gonna want to communicate with us and actually conversation with us. And then it's funny that you asked me more about red flags is because we Joe back in we pull up to my mom's new place, and there's me ex-boyfriend and my best friend in the back seat of my mom's car in I opened the door to get out and can't get out because there's a child lock on the door. And I say, John, can you lend me out? There's child lock on the door in. I kinda softspoken. So I'm like, okay. Maybe he didn't hear me the first time. So I say like one more time he gets out of the car and he goes upstairs. And I'm just like literally, I'm in the car, and it had to call my mom on the phone, and I was kind of really irritated. And I was like, mom, your frickin boyfriend won't let me out of the car right now. Like can you come downstairs, and let us? Out of the car. Do you think it was in? Hindsight, is that like a power move. I think it's a like a control issue like he was going to be like, I'm not gonna let you out of the car and he pretend I just didn't hear you. But I'm really doing it on purpose. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting that is interesting. So I thought that was extremely weird. The is a weird thing. But it is it seems like resentful behavior because I've done stuff like that little things when you're, you're like, I know that no, my friend from I my best friend from home is been sending me ven, mom requests for bottle service in Vegas that I don't wanna pay because I didn't want to give bottles, and it was for two ninety seven and I waited, I did it three days later, then she wanted and David to ninety five. 'cause I was pissed. So that's resentful behavior. And that's an example of me doing that harmless like you can eat the two dollars. I flew to Vegas for you, but it was just be a dick and prove a point. But it was harmless that seems like something someone would do when they're mad at you. But he had no reason to be mad at you. It was just a show. You like that's like dismissive. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting. Right. Someone who does it? Two. So, okay. So these little red flags keep popping up, and did you ever talk to your mom about the guys that she was dating like an express your opinion saying that, like maybe this guy isn't right? Or this is kind of weird all the time, which is why she probably didn't take my sister, nice serious. When we were seeing, like, hey, there's something not right with this guy here. So. It like kind of created my mom to be like, oh, well, they don't like anyone who ID. What were the things that you would say about the other guys, I will allot of them were actually, like kind of con artists also did she date any other like narcissistic? Yes. And like the loss guy she was engaged to like she bought him a plane in. If you could be all. She bought him a plane because he was like, well, I can't come down to see you dot much. I live in northern California, and she and he had his pilot license. So she was like, oh, it's just like you plane, I guess it was like probably more to it like, right? Just all get you the cliff notes are all you need to know about that. He ended up with the plane. Yeah. So like he really pulled one over on her. She was engaged him, but, like he had multiple other women. And I think he even had a wife or something. Oh my God. So just like coming from into this guy, we were already the family was already on, like red alert. Jeez. I would do she did you find all these guys on because you found John match right? I'm our time what the hell's up that's the fifty and over sixty overs. It's like they're yeah. You're like reclaiming your. Time, naked the kids. Did she find all the other guys on dating apps to I'm so a lot of them she actually got set up through friends? Okay. But she was shooting. Like she were these two friends, don't know. I mean I hear stories and some of the cases be covered to where it's like they set them up, and then one of them he kills. You know, it's like you don't the friends are just as tricked by their fate, charisma. You know what I mean, the ovens true, especially friends like guy, friends. I have if I set them up with someone he's a good guy like you, don't you don't really, really know friends that. Well, when you're an adult you see them, like once a month, except for you, too. I see goes too much. We love doing this. Where we love it. Can we? So no lot of you guys binged, the first degree in probably a lot of other true crime podcast. And what are you going to do, when you have nothing else to listen to? Well, I have a great solution for you, and that is checking out oxygen, new special death at the mansion Rebecca's how, so I don't know if you guys have heard of this case before, but it's a very, very complicated one and we're going to get into a little bit right now the captivating new series falls in elite team of investigators including former prosecutor Lonnie combs with our very own true. Crime journalist Bill Jensen and forensic. Criminologist Paul holes, which I'm sure you guys all know about, as they take another look at this mysterious case, this series will re examine the numerous theories running the bizarre case meeting with experts family members witnesses, and never before interviewed law enforcement officials, and they create a case file with compelling, new evidence, which is strong enough to present. The San Diego Sheriff's office for review. It's such a good series. I've watched it all. And you guys are going to -absolutely love it. So go. Oh. Check out a new episode of death of the mansion Rebecca's, how this Saturday at six five central on oxygen, and don't worry if you miss any of it, you can catch it on demand, and binge-watch anytime. So when tell them tonight, the next time that you see him when did you when did you talk to your mother about him was it in between the first time that you met him in the second time? I'm so I went back to bega. So after the first week because I was living in Vegas fulltime thought time and then they came back to. Balboa Newport Beach for thanksgiving. And then I confronted her the day before thanksgiving that he was driving her car around. And I was like he's at UNICEF museology, why doesn't he have his own car? Is there something wrong with him? The second had you met him the second time or is said, this would be like I went had like a weekend with them. And then it came back for thanksgiving and had like a few days prior, and then the day before thanksgiving happen and dots when confronted confront. Yeah. Confronted her and I just had all these questions. And then he when I was confronting her talking to her. He came up right behind her in started screaming on me insane that I wanted my mom all to myself, I don't wanna see my mom, Hoppy. And then just accusing me of other things also. And did you start was this the first time that, that he ever was like that or showed any aggression towards you? Yes. Yeah. Did you think that did you have a feeling that he wasn't an anesthesiologist never to be honest? I found a nursing certificate in the closet, because I was going to put my suitcase in the closet, and then there was a box in his like nursing certificate was like the first thing I saw right now. It was like I wasn't snooping it was just right in front of my eyes. Do think you put it there. So somebody would see it. I honestly think that he thought that I was gonna turn it around. But I don't know anything about the medical field. So I just was like, okay he's a nurse also now this'll. This'll buy something was triggered him where he thought differently because he accused me of snooping. And I was like I wasn't snooping. So then when you ended up putting like a tracker on his car, Mesa state, aired sister ended up putting his car. Did you guys have like an app on your phone? How are you following it around? I believe may sister has an app on her phone, or from the computer she. Yeah, she's really involved in spy gadgets. Hell, there's like a shop in Newport, that you go to Ken go to also and you can just like by car trackers in other like listening devices for them. And so she went to the spy shop and got a few trackers, put it on my mom's tesla because she had him driving around her Tusla a lot. And he was going from, like different. Doctor offices to like another. One. So I think, well, we thought he was getting drugs during that time in may have been just like writing prescriptions for some one or something along, like illegal drugs, fun facts on the hospitals that he went to is where I was born really how mission viejo hospital. Our nanny. Great connection. Oh, god. So wait. What? What was he doing? Did you ever find out? Oh, us doing. I'm nothing but speculations to be honest because it's not like we had a camera on him. It was just we had a trucker and we found out he was going to different. Doctors tend to be pinned in the parking lot just sitting there for a half an hour or whatever. Right. Do you think you know who's being tracked? I don't think so at this time, I think he thought me sister was crazy. But, like I didn't think he knew she was really smart. Where did you put the tracker? How the tracker look like so I would actually help me sister out, sometimes with this. So my mom, we go to dinner with me, and he didn't allow my mom to go to dinner with my sister, so she would like have to sneak didn't allow yes, it was so stupid. But I would like tell her okay, let's go to dinner this place. And then I text may sustain be like, okay, her cars valet right now. Like this is where it's at, and then. She would go put the track around the car, and then my mom would go back home to him. So, and then he would take her car the next day, right? Put the tracker underneath the car. Yes, underneath the car like underneath a bumper something, right? As this magnetic. Yeah. All right. So you've got the tracker on the car. What, how is he acting towards you? If you are you out to dinner with him. No, he winning come because I had the falling out with him and ever since. It was it was. All right before thanksgiving. Yes. Okay. And so, did you even have thanksgiving dinner with him? No, I didn't have thanksgiving dinner with my family at all, like my sister. And I did a separate thing with our boyfriends in it was kind of like sad, but her boyfriend's, a great cook. So he made all the food, and then may two and may mate niece nephew, and then my other sister and brother-in-law came over after my mom's thanksgiving with John and all that. Well, I was basically told I wasn't allowed at thanksgiving, and that was like the first year thoughts ever happened. Yeah. And over your whole your whole life in over a guy that you for two months and had she ever with any of the like, because you're saying that her past boyfriends are also kind of on our artists, narcissist personality, people did any of them, pull you away from your family and not like so this is like a new thing. It wasn't something that happened with all the rest of her boyfriend's, it reminds me so much of the Rasmusen in the town, four case, and that was his MO was was to I, I mean he would he would end up in. He was doing it for different reasons. But he would and this was a lot easier to do in the seventies, where he would take somebody alienate, the family and then move them away, and because you don't have social media. All you had was phones, landlines so we don't have the landline. It was very easy to lose track of somebody if this was happening in the seven. Ladies that potentially could have been what he would he would have done this now we're moving someplace else, and that's it and lose get on occasion. Let's well, they did eventually moved to Vegas, in a thing that, that was part of like his MO two like separate her. Yeah. Yeah. Question. I have as far as I know you aren't your mom, but as far as from your perspective, what is it about the guy she chooses? Why do you think she chooses? I mean she's a successful accomplished. Beautiful woman attractive beautiful family. You know why do you think she chooses these guys? Well, a lot of these guys do a technique, which is called love bombing. Oh, girl. I've been loved bombed. I've dated a psychopath. So when I was listening to the podcast, I'm like this 'cause they're all, and I'm sure you've done a lot of research to afterwards like trying to make sense of everything and all their behavior is so textbook. They all do the same moves and it's the same thing. So when you hear somebody else doing it, like, yeah. I was love bombed, I was told that he loved me after, like two days, wanna marry me after week believed all the things. So I understand, like where you want to believe it so bad with somebody yet. And like, I, especially, I guess, if you're older, your mom was married, a couple of times right like four or five. If you if you want that, like it's easy to believe in its easy to ignore yet. All the red flags that I guess, are happening right? Yeah. Well, I'm even talking with like one of my friends in. She's in a relationship in, I don't think the skies in narcissistic, or narcissistic, or psychopath, or sociopath. But just he is confused in. It's just she sees a lot of the red flags that he is confused. And she doesn't want to admit to them. So it's when you're in it, you don't want to admit to the because you're like, oh, I think I found this love finally. Yeah. I mean Jesus. I just did it like a year and a half ago and it was a nightmare. And I moved in with someone it crashed and burned I moved out, it was a horrible, horrible situation. And it's like I thought I already thought I was an adult, and that I was making wise choices. Yeah. No, you're not. So still not. Wise at the time, and then when you're out of it, and you can be introspective. You're just like what was I thinking? Yeah. So it's like you think that she just she just wanted that kind of love like all of her kids were out of the house. She didn't have any dogs at the time, you know, so she wants someone there with her, and I'm, I'm not gonna lie. I'm a really independent person. But sometimes it's like nice to have someone around to help you with stuff in like give you a tension and put a shelf on a long time when you're single, it's nice to have someone to just text all day with it's nice to just have someone Chen. Then it's just a distraction from the, the horror that is the reality of being an adult. My cool at work again. Sad. And I'm like it's been six weeks like the weeks are flying by like you want want something. This is really venting. Tinkering Holly going through. She's going through it. I feel about you. Sorry. Where we are. Where are we in the story? We're Rockies choosing. We're tracking the car. She's choosing these shitty shitty men over and over again. And then she's getting fooled. Yes. What about the, the first sign of something more disturbing than just not being invited to thanksgiving? I'm he won't he like isolated ice yet. Fizzes sign a sociopath in psychopath. Do is Elliott Nate the person from their family friends, then a lot of the other red flags is he was using her car. He didn't have his own car, and then when we would ask him why he didn't have his own car. It was because he came up with this elaborate story how when he was in Iraq, all of his cars and his motorcycle got stolen all the cars look at Billy's face. And I'm just like. When he told me this story. I'm just like, okay, I call Bs on that, like you can't tell so in that and then you're like wondering where the insurance money is in no offense. But if you're high up there in your an anesthesiologist, then you have good insurance that will take care of that right away. You know, a pretty shitty lie. So this is around thanksgiving, right? That we're talking about. And then when how long was it between thanksgiving? And then when everything went down, I'm when everything, so she. Married him and December. And then I honestly did you go to the wedding? Heck. No. Not married in Vegas, though, which is where I was living got married in Vegas. She's like, I'm blocking it out. I'm not a hundred percent share. I don't think it was the little white chapel, though. We didn't get the little church of the west. I think that's where they got. Oh, that's, we're in the same guy that married us married, Richard Gere and Cindy Crawford that in on good at all. Cindy Crawford did one out of three but also Elvis Mary's Ann, Margaret at the end of Viva Las Vegas and that same chapel. Okay. Apec debt. That's not why I picked it. We're just a cool looking chapel. Ev- is I've never been so excited for a sponsor on the first degree in my entire life. And this is because I use this website, every single morning and every single night before I go to bed it is the real real, I have a lot of designer stuff, but I'm going to let you in on a little secret. 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Alexa, isn't the only one with breaking news, make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the news minute. If you look the first degree you're going to love enough about me, with Shep rose on podcast, one joined the southern charm stars. He talks about reality TV ambience with his wide array of interesting, friends download, new episodes of enough about me every week on apple podcasts or podcast, one. They get married in December. Nobody goes knowing goes, it's like no one even knew about that, for probably like a year. Okay. Oh shut. And so when she, like left him the first time I know the date because it wasn't the first leaving make family hired a private investigator, and then we showed her all this information. And that's when she left him the first time what information I'm the so that he was a drug addict that was the addictive pills. Right. I'm I think I believe it was like ketamine again I'm like a bunch of hard core. Like painkillers and then he'd love cocaine. Shocker. Cocaine and he just was into kind of any upper he could get his hands on. I'm in, then he would also like sin drugs to his brother. But this is like before he even met my mom and his brother overdosed on the drugs that John gave to him over shut. And so he's that he died. Yeah. Oh, god. Yeah. So I'm brother. Yes. So, like his sisters and everything blame, John for his brother's death, and there is some speculation on the data also because I'm he went in when his dad was like, on his deathbed, and his sister left the room. And when his sister came back, the debt, the dad was dead. John was very smart in he'd sit like work in the medical field. So his sister things that she may have given him something to speed it up. Just like he had somewhere else to be. Speed it up by what hours ten hours two weeks like that's it just seems it's a psychopath would do. Like I have somewhere to be. Let's get this over with. Right. Even if it sees on Zeph, but it's like, all right. I don't have a week. It sounds like something a psychopath do. Yeah. And justify it. Like what is the week going to do? He's comatose chop chop, dude. Yeah, he needs the money now right now. My God, what did he get like a did? He get an inherent heritage from his dad, I okay, I'm not one hundred percent share. But I believe there was a small inheritance? Okay. Yeah. He did about money to buy those coffees. Yes. Does or expensive they are six dollars. So when does he find out does he find out that, that you hard, a PI? So I don't think he had any idea. I didn't have anything to do with hiring private PI. It was like my sister Jacqueline. And then my brother in law, and then my other sister was involved in, in that he was using different social security card numbers for. Nursing certificates and stuff or not for the nursing certificate, but to be nurse and other places. And, and then he also like he conned so many other women in there was information on restraining orders on him from lake sewin- in Laguna beach. I think there was one from his sister in there. And then there is something that just disturbed me. So much was John, actually when he was in one of the jails, he cut open his stomach. And he put he put crap in there like oh, yeah. What so that he would go to the sponsors, so that he would have to go to the doctor and get all these drugs and stuff in him? But he's also smart in. He knows the medical field where he can do it like where he doesn't wasn't going to her. You know, because I saw go. Yeah, I saw the pictures, and it was so disgusting. And but when I saw those pictures, I was like, if he could do this to himself and he can harm. So unlike no problem, no problem. So your mom leaves him who does he blame? I think he's blaming all of us. But. He was able to convince her the a lot of the stuff that the PI found wasn't him that it was other John me Hans. Sure. Yeah. And then he took her to a lawyer, and the lawyer explained the salsa to her like from his perspective. I think, so I, I have a question, I'm curious just hearing you what you just said about how your sister, Jacqueline was kind of spearheading the PI thing, I'm just wondering how over time, like he locked in on you in why in like 'cause you seem the most not the most not it's just what I know on the podcast. So forgive me, but you seem passive in the situation where you were upset by it. But your sisters were kind of the ones being worked, Philip eating the like I don't care if you know I'm hiring a PI like I think you're a stem bag and you're being more passive. Like how did he walk in on you? And why was his anger? Put on you. I'm well, okay. So actually had his dog a probably because the dog didn't like him. He with leave Vegas and leave the dog at the Vegas house. And then he would come California in stock 'as, so the dog would get out of the yard and it kept getting out to the neighbors kept putting the dog back. But then one day, the dog ended up at animal control, and we gave him a few days to get the dog out of there. But then my mom was like, I'm gonna go get the dog. I love this dog. Like it's our dog now. Like I gave him a chance to get it. And so my mom works so much. So she gave the dog to me to watch so that could have had something to do with why he came up after me. But I think it's honestly that he underestimated me. And he thought that I was my mom. Favorite kind of. Oh, sorry, mom does. I'm the baby. Maybe some me be. And then I'm just a lot more. Easygoing your shell. You're so child. I love a yucky. The stern stats. So I think he thought I was easy target is your sister physically taller than you like to have anything to do with your size because you're so tiny. Oh, no may sister's leg, so much tinier than me, a really she's like double zero, like five to just I'm five to two but she's tiny interested. I just remember hearing on the podcast, so you are kind of win in meeting. You in person is I'm just imagining what I, I listened to the podcast. You sound wims ical relaxed in nine and your sisters are a little bit more like, oh, hell no. That it ended up. You know, I think that like as an aggressive personality from him, he would go after somebody else that was no, I would think I would have I mean thinking of, like people that I have known that were psychopaths and how they. Acted in relationships they acted more violent and aggressive with somebody that the partner was also a little bit more aggressive. So as like I think he was trying to hurt mom exactly what was more about, like it was more just like an equation like who's going to be the easiest in who's going to hurt her. The most in not put up a thing. I'm gonna take the pay but yeah, exactly. So then he, he started stalking, you guys right yet. And then how did you find out? He was stalking. You did you actually see him never? But always hot that sense that I was being followed. The on it was really weird, because, like, I would walk home from the bars all by myself like that would have been the perfect time to grab me. And I would like to these, like two mile walks home from the buyers, just because I like to walk, and I didn't want to order Hooper because I was gained cheap. It's really like Billy likes to walk to where are you? Wonderman walking. Attack him. He will laws date. It's like ten feet. I can I can walk them mile in probably about six minutes. So you always felt like he was like, lurk something, you just felt it. Yeah. And then I didn't get confirmation until after may attack actually because I am I, he called my work the day before. And he was just. Using a fake French accent. And he was like all Hello. I would like to make appointment for my two dogs my Rhodesian ridge backs. Yeah. I met like two Rhodesian ridge back like a couple of days prior. But normally when people call to get their dog screamed. It's usually the wife calling, right? Because the wife is always like I like them like this like this way or the highway. And the guys always like, oh, I need you to call my wife. So I was just like that's kind of fishy, because it's a man calling, and did you recognize his voice at all? Just from nut can't imagine his accent was good. No, it wasn't. But like the dogs are barking and the kennel. So it's like, oh, I just need to get this person off the phone. That's crazy who thinks you're calling for retirement. A Frenchman revision, like you're just not looking at that under a microscope, is you're like that's madness. If you would do that, in those are technically from South America. So we called the day before said the was weird Frenchman, and then obviously didn't bring the dog said. No. He didn't show at all. He actually called right before my lunch break and it got disconnected. So I was like, oh, I don't think this guy is going to show. And I just had a feeling that this guy wasn't going to show either, so I literally like left work, and I went home from a break because we have like a two to three hour break just so the dogs can like rest, and we can do like a full eight hour day. You know. So I went home got started getting ready because they had a country concert that name for Jason out deem and go to juice, milk day. I'm a big country fan. You. Cut at the same game. What I go every year surprised I didn't run into, you know, gotta go next year. Sure. Okay. Anyway. Sorry, so Jason aldean. So I was playing good to Jason aldean's concert. So I went home started like prepping for that. So that when I got off work, I could just be like, oh, I just need to throw on this and get out the door. And so I went home got ready a little bit. And then I went back to work in, I just fed the dogs took them out a couple of times, and kinda put them the bed, and so that I was able to get off a little bit early, and I left and went home early, and I pull up and pull up to wear always park, but the gate was broken, and it's been broken for a few days. So I just like went right in. And as I go past the broken gate may dog just starts going off on a guy, and I'm just I looked over and. It. Well, it was John, but I didn't know it was John and he was just fiddling with a tire iron. Terrifying. He and he was like backed up into space in. I just looked at him. And I'm like, oh, he's homeless like. Hope he'll just like figure out his staff. And he needs a place for a minute. You know, and I told my dog to knock it off, and he knocked it off, and then I pull into the space, I get out of my seat. And then I get my dog out at the back seat. And then I pull start walking to go down the ramp. And he grabs me right by my license plate, and he grousing by the waist and looks me in the eyes and says, do you remember me? And I just like looked up at him and I was like, oh, I didn't say anything to him, but I was like, oh, yeah, I remember yield and who are you? Right. And I just started trying to flee in that moment because I was just like I just need a Ryan and get to my house and get ready for this concert and do I feel did you feel endangered at the moment that you saw him like grabbed your waist? You're like OC. He's going to try to do something. I was like, oh, you Houston and try to kill me now. And so that's why new I had to flee because I didn't think I would be able to fight this man. And I thought my best case is if I find and get help from someone. Yeah. Let me tell you about how I found my absolute dream apartment on the water in southern California. I'm sitting in my bedroom looking off into the marina, and I'm so happy and I found it there, one of our sponsors apartments dot com, so I'm so happy that they're a sponsor of the first degree now. So apartments dot com is the number one rental search site with the most listings of apartments, condos townhomes and houses. They have it all and apartments dot com has the cutting edge search tools to help you find your perfect place with ease apartments dot com. Verifies all of their listings, which means they work to keep all the information and pricing up to date. So you're not wasting your time. If you're like me, I'm sure you've wasted a lot of hours searching on sites that have fake listings or scammy listings that try to make you pay them five hundred dollars to come to your house that almost happened to me, but with apartments dot com, if you're looking for something specific like friendly commute friendly, or just sit on your couch. Friendly day. Have it all? All. So go to apartments dot com and find your next place to rent change your apartment and change your world. I started trying to flee away from him. I was unable to disconnect from him the whole time. Holding onto you. So he grabbed me by the waste like is like, like how you would like just swoop. So one kind of like, by the way, and then I like tried to get away and then he I'm like screaming, and he's trying to cover my mouth, I bit him as hard as I could. When he tried to cover up my mouth because I'm like, he could try to put like chloroform in my mouth something. So I'm like, I'm going to fight as hard as I can buy it as hard as they can do everything as best as I can in this moment and able to survive. So I ended up we ended up like toss lean. Although a bit, and the knife fell onto the floor and he's just welling on me and he had the knife in a del taco bag. So out I, I didn't understand. I was getting stabbed. And till I saw the knife, and then I'm too he was still he had his hand inside the del taco bag, but holding the knife. And then that's what he was. So he had del taco bag and then he had his hand. Around like the opening of and then stopping the gas. He was stabbing three at the ballot here. Yes. Yeah. And then I'm on the ground in. I'm pedal kicking him in? I just came from work. So I was wearing rain boots. Which hide a, a good significance in this attack in me, surviving, and then might SOG was also talking, his ankles in biting, his ankles, while he was on top of me, and I just kept pedal kicking in just trying to block the knife as it came down. And then at one point, I was able to kick the knife out of the his forearm, and it landed exactly like, on my right? Hint side where I was able to pick up the knife. It was in the ice pick position. So the perfect position to pick up a knife and start just willing back on him. And I just started willing back on him. He started to fall on top me. I like grabbed his head because I watched. Oh, much Walking Dead that I'm like he can't bite me. And so he's like falling on top of me. I have his head, and then I gave to stabs one to the forehead, and then the very last one in the eye and the one in the eyes, which made him brain dead in the kill shot to everyone else. And then he fell like completely on top of me. I pushed him off me, and then I took the knife, I tossed it as far as I could away so that he wouldn't get up and grab the knife right away. And then I just kinda start screaming for help at that point. And then there was a guy that came in. He was like, what can I do? Well out. I there was a girl that came. And she is just saw my dog running around and at this point, I realized I had stop on my forearm. So I just start applying pressure to so that I don't lose too much blood. And then I just tried to evaluate myself and see if I have any other stop wounds. And so she just grabbed my dog because I was like, I have the stab wounds covered and I just need help with my dog. And so she grabbed my dog and then another guy came, my he was on a bicycle he gave me his jacket. That was read thinking is and the night, just wrapped it around my arm so that I wouldn't see the blood and staife and then skyler came up and she's, like fourteen years old. She just came from lifeguard training. So she told me. Hi, my name is Schuyler. I just came from lifeguard training. I'm trained in this. How can I help you? And so she started wrapping up my wound and applying pressure to that with clean towel. And then at this time the police arrive and start quest. Questioning me in. Then from there just as wall. I, I called my mom sorry. I get lost in this part out like, oh, I got call, like I felt really bad to be honest because even though he was a horrible guy. And he tried to talk me. We tried to kill you. He he tried to kill me, but I just felt bad. Because I knew that she at one point love this guy and for anyone to love anyone when they pass you have to fill something, even if you hate them, you know, it's only human nature to fill sad about so in dying even if they did. Attack their daughter and try to kill their daughter, and we're purely evil. It's just human nature break. So I called her, and I was like, I'm so sorry I think I killed your husband and I told her that I knew this would happen because I my sister, and I have been telling her from the beginning that the sky was evil that he was bad, but something was gonna come out of it. So I felt the need to tell her that. And then afterwards they called my ex boyfriend, I was like you need to come here because he's the only one that like, met John with me besides, it's like a few of my other friends, and I really needed that support during that time. What did your mom say she was just like oh, what, what happened like she didn't understand that for your sent comprehending you know, it was like so confusing? Yeah. Confusion of that it's like in the guilt, she must have had because of what happened to you. Yeah. And then she showed up and. She wasn't able to get some me because they had the caution line and tape up in. So she felt guilty that she had to watch me like be interrogated by this just like from far, you know, so there's a lot of guilt in even that. And when you're looking at your when you were evaluating your body and seeing where else he might have been stabbed. Did you find any other places that you were stabbed or sell at that point? Eight sit. And but later when I was in the hospital in it wasn't till the end when I was getting released actually, I was changing into might close that may sister, brought me that I had one on my chest. Gosh, was it deep? It was two centimeters steep, but with where it was I, I needed to be transferred to trauma unit or well, yeah. And they like I think I was in the trauma hospital for maybe two days. Days. It was really blurry because I was on a lot of out of van and Zo Fran and like pain pills and all the pain medicine. They gave me too. So I was really out of it. And I think it was on morphine, and I hate morphine. I just feel really out of it. When sewing gives me that stuff when you were doing the pedal kicks and you were covering your body with your with your arms. Right. This point when I was on the ground I was I probably had my I probably had my arms. Honestly, like I work kickboxing, but I didn't have them up like protecting my chest. Because when you're on the ground and your pedal, kicking, it's not. Oh, I remember now. Sorry, like bits and pieces like come back home. You sure times. I actually haven't been hands like on the ground a little bit like supporting you. And I'm like, now that I fought it shouldn't. Yeah. May Hans were like all scuffed up afterwards. And like when this is happening, and you're fighting back. My biggest question is were you just on autopilot fighter flight, and like we're you not even thinking about what you're doing or were you being intentional? And that was like what was coming to your brain. Because like we've never experienced anything that traumatic and I don't know how I would react, honestly in this moment, it wasn't like I was thinking, like I've seen so many shows in set that I probably was like subconsciously thinking about it. But in that moment may body kind of just took over and did what it needed to do in that moment. We'll come ashore shows you'd mentioned the Walking Dead for the kill shot. But what about the other shows or when you were defending yourself, honestly, I watched the Walking Dead. Head Dexter CSI Miami skiffs. I New York. Yes. I honestly. Yes, I. Law and order. But only like the SP union, obviously stabler. Right. And then they always used to have such great guest on that show. And I just remember listening to a lot of those stories about the survivors of the people that actually like survive. They didn't really survive because they're on TV show. But all the girls who said that they survive, they said that they fought like hell and they didn't give up. So I knew that I wasn't going to give up. And I really wanted to go see Jason deemed that. You make you know shoes at the Tribune unit for. You know about this. He has to actually met him free late just for a second stage coach. And that was so nice because I felt kind of a sense of closure, it's like a full circle. Yeah. And it's like I was able like I've seen him three times now, actually. But I was like and not moment is like this is finally over. I don't have to fight for my life anymore. You know. Sixty seconds. That's exactly how long does commercial will last for, but you know what else you can do in about a minute, you can get an offer for your car with truecar. That's right. And the amount of time that it takes you to flush teed. Pet your dog. Do few sit-ups meetings up a coffee or just listen to my voice in this ad? You can get a true cash offer on your car and best of all, you can do it from your smartphone or your home. You don't even have to leave your couch. So all you do is go to truecar simply onto your license plate number and watch how your car's details pop up. He answer a few questions and you'll get an accurate true cash offer from a local truecar certified dealer. It's that easy after that you bring in your car, and they'll check it out with you together. You can ask questions, get the answers that you need. So there are no surprises. Then simply leave with your check or trade in your car for a new ride. It's that easy. So when you're ready to experience a better way to trade in or sell your car. Check out truecar today. I love that country. Music was like you're like I'm fighting is she? All. It's country music and dogs. And the dogs is a thread throughout this entire story just crazy, because, like you're talking about how your mom she and you mentioned like the kids were gone. She didn't have a dog at the time. And maybe that's why she was was willing to let this guy in and you're, you're you work with the dogs, and then you're. Talking. Yeah. Yes. And then your dog noticed him, probably before you did, and started barking, and then your dog, you know, help save you when he was nipping at his at the seals literally. Cash out a lot to do with it, and like their instincts are so on point. Yeah. So I want to know about like the healing process after this. I'm assuming you probably went to a lot of therapy. Right. Oh, yes. So much. And everyone, obviously you probably have crazy PTSD from everything. But like it's pretty crazy. How you can talk about this, so candidly, and it just seems like it's a normal conversation to you. Well, there's like, I, I didn't wanna talk about it his it's so it's retraumatize in going through your trauma, each time and even even talking about it now, I'm not gonna lie there still time where I'm like after this podcast. I really liked to go home and just hang out with my dog saying, like recuperate from it. Right. I'm but I've been through so much therapy, gone through EM DR even role. A couple blog posts about may trauman my therapy. Steph, I'm but I started out doing MDR therapy. Cute explain that to. I know what it is. But it's a very interesting. Yeah, former therapy. So what my therapist did is she has these buzzers in these, like tapper, things that I have to hold in my hand, and I have to have her turn it on really low, because when they're on their high, it actually is retrieving to me. So you kind of have to, to EM DR in kind of work your way with what works for you. What is it supposed to be simulated? I'm it's just like a sensor kind of it's like you go through your hack. And it helps like rewire your brain a little bit with having an extra since on it. Interesting. Yes. And then like you will go through like a play by play. Yes. And then this the sensors will go off at certain times and. Sorry they're going off the whole time. God seeing. And so, like, I would have them in my hands, and then I would actually start with a way less trauma than what I went through because I've experienced multiple traumas throughout my life, like with, like, so have a lot of people. And you don't realize that it was a trauma, when you were younger, so you start out going through those ones, and then you feel like at the end of each time you talk about it, you're like, okay, so on a scale of one to ten how do you feel about this? And then you keep going through it to get it to a lower number got up interesting. I've never heard of it. Yeah. It's, it's I it's like a lot for PTSD getting through like a specific moment trauma. So then that's helped you a lot. And then I was I going to say I was listening to another interview that you did. So like when you do that you're. Put yourself in a happy place. Right. I'm so at the end of it. Well, you I like create your happy place and it's important to have that as a base. And whenever things get to a level where it's too much to handle. You can't really talk about it or you start to get like a panic attack from it. Then you go, your therapist will be like, okay, let's go back to your happy place. What is your happy place? My happy place and so used to do fly fishing with my dad and Montana. And so it's like at this dude ranch where we used to go fly fishing, and it's like this little pond, and then I've made that's not in that. But like I'm out the pond. And I had my dog with me cash. So it's like I put things that weren't my hobby placed before if that makes sense you kind of make your hobby to your own. Yeah. You create your own love that Trump's such a nice up. Plays all about him. No, seriously. What you've been through is so hard. Well, they take care of yourself. You're going to therapy, you're doing these things and you are so resilient. Thank you. You just can't let something like this. Hold you back from other things you got to go out and live life. And it's like this thing like it was a horrible event that I went through, but at the end of the day, he's not here. He's not hurting other women. And if I were to survive something, I wouldn't want me a talker there at the end of the day. So I think it's a huge blessing. It just there was so many things that I had to go through that they are hard. But like I'm so happy to be here. You know, do you think he might have attacked anybody else in the past and got away with it? So as I know he talked this one girl, I think it was in Laguna beach. But she fought back and. He ended up suing her because he felt down in like broke his teeth. So she he sued her, and she had to get him new veneers in style. Oh of by a God. Yeah. I'm that is the ultimate, conman. You try to attack a girl, you fall a hanger teeth and then she has to get you knew veneers. How how's the relationship within your family, the relationships within your family been since? I mean how how the relationship with your mom your sisters relationship with your mom because that's like a complicated thing, especially with your mom. I'm well, I want to just say this. I, I love my mom to death, but there has been points where it's been hard for me to fully accept her apology because it's like I couldn't like I couldn't have well, this situation couldn't have turned out into a better situation. And we did warn her so many times. So there's like resentment from us warning her in her not listening to us, and that's hard sometimes. But now I'm in therapy with her about Scott. Yeah. I mean totally and it's just like teaching each other like what makes her happy and how I can communicate with her, and then how she can communicate with me and just do it openly. And honestly in not like lie about anything because when she was with John, she did like lie about some stuff about him because she was scared. And so I just have some resentment from, of course, having a good relationship with your parents. And with your mom is tough enough as it is to have this whole thing on top of it. Yeah. I have one question about, so do you boyfriend or are you dating? I'm I'm dating by and my love life's really complicated though. Is it always say, is it having had this experience with him being a psychopath? Con artist tried to kill you like has that made your ability to trust men and their intentions harder since then I'm a lot more judgy like if a guy if a guy does something that I am judging him like actually just ended it with this one guy, because he had a lot of like narcissistic, qualities, and it's really funny because a couple of days ago, this girl, contacted me and warned me about him. And I was just like Heidi hate. Already done. But let's get together and talk about him. She find you or how did you know that she that he dated you? I'm because I well as stage coach. One of his friends went to the neon carnival, and I was there also. And I was trying to avoid him. And like try to like get away from him because I was already over him. But then him and his friend, find us in his friends like a gay man, and my friend was so drunk and she's like, I'm never had a Cape us friend before the whole time. She just wants to hang out with him in having new gave us friend and I'm just like I love you Brooke, but like. Really? Friends with him like he was amazing. He was so cool. But like the guy that I was dating like shit. Some of the narcissistic, qualities that, that he was presented. Okay. So I'm this was like, after a few days, I went on like probably three day with him. But after like, I think the second day he came back to my house, and I have a puppy and the puppy is kind of crazy. She's a little bit wild. But he kept on making comments to me that I was so crazy for adding another animal in my life, and I'm just like thinking, like, I'm not crazy. I love my life. I love my dog soap judging me, bro. Yeah. And looks like for you. Like Billy said it's like this comfort and the safety. And like you can rely on your dog over anything. I mean that dog helps when you and your most vulnerable moments of your whole life. Yeah. You know, more the merrier writing on the dog. Give me all the dog. Apartment. I probably have like four. So he's being funny for being crazy. Well, he's kept on calling me, crazy and lots of red flag. Yeah. When sewing uses that word too much, and they call other people crazy. I'm like most people. Crazy. Yeah. So I was like, okay is really the crazy one? And. I do this thing with my puppy, that's called pressure training. And it's for like when the dog bites union stuff, you like apply pressure into their mouth in, you either get them to let go or they just like yelp one time and it's over and he made the dog yelp, and he didn't like go and the dog continue to cry. And I literally had this whole him like, okay you could let go of my dog now. And yeah. And hear him to do in that moment. It like told me that he didn't have any empathy that he was hurting dog or any boundaries for what he should be doing to somebody somebody else's. Did he know your story? I'm I don't think he knew it fully. But he actually went to the dirtyjohn premier. So then he knows too. Yeah, he's an idiot. I'm sure don't know. I think we last question is, so obviously the Bravo show came out based on the podcast. Do you think that you were, and your story was accurately represented? So it's so hard to be the person having their stories hold. So I think that there's always death. I would want differently. But it can never be exactly like my life. And but. I really respect how they did it. And how they ended it. And I really respect that they met up with me and really got my perspective of the tack, but attack is actually. Almost exactly how it happened. There is like one thing, where she put up her back back, and I think that I need to clarify, when I like put up me purse to protect my heart was like literally just over my heart. I wasn't like defending your with the backpack. You know, when a mean so that was different. But everything else was like from my perspective and how it went down bus goes Justice. What are some of the things that you would have changed? I'm. Well, I just would change like some of the events to make them more. So exactly how they went down. But with it being like Bravo TV. It's like the can't do the are exact story there has to be some stuff that are different. And then if someone's like names in there like my ex boyfriend thought stories changed right if he's not like signing off for it. What's next for you? What next so far I'm just working on my blog. And I'm really I'm trying to get more into talking about PTSD in the drama in therapy. So I'm trying to do more blog posts like thi-, but I'm also traveling a lot. And then we have crime con coming Nash shirt, much fun shirt. Yeah. Are you like, are you trying to get into the talking to other survivors or anything about the self defense or any into that world at all? While I would really like to do more speaking engagements going around and talking to girls about surviving surviving may attack what they should do in attack like that. And then also about the aftermath about the PTSD and what it's like to go through trauma, because I don't think a lot of people realize that they may have gone through trauma in their life, and that they may have some issues from it, like if you were abusive child, that's trauma, if you earn car accident that's trauma. And so it's really important to realize that this trauma has affected, Hugh, and to get help for that. About. Other questions. My last one, and I want this to come out correctly would be just this is awful. But are there any silver linings for you in that did anything good happen as a result of this awful thing? I feel like that one hundred percent that there was so much good that came out of this. Like he's dead. He's not here. Tormenting anyone else. This show came out in a positive thing about that is that it's created awareness for so many women that are going through a John scenario, and it doesn't even have to be as extremist John, just to realize that there's people like that out there. And then I feel like I have a life purpose now and I finally fill that in my life where when I was working with dogs and stuff, I loved to love them so much. But now I feel like I actually have a purpose. Let's personal. I mean this it was a life. Situation and it put you on neutral tree. It's deeply personal and like few people get those moments to be like this is what I'm supposed to be doing. And it's so powerful on few people. I'm not gonna say few people, but it takes a lot to be as resilient as you are to be so open to talk about it and to use such a tragic thing that happened to you, as a platform to help other girls so of other girls come up to you and been like I've dumped this dude, because I see all these qualities that were in. John. Yes. So many actually, and it's made me, so happy because there's points where I get like trolls and. And then you're just like you're pretty on top of everything else. So in told me the other day that I needed it by myself, but and I was like, oh, thank you. I'm so skinny now. Elise twisted into it. Rolling you. Like I understand why people would troll me. But like, I don't know. Like all you did is try to defend yourself. Well, you know what people that are in hap- unhappy in their own lives. They could choose anything to critique. It'd be like I don't like her voice, which is what most people say they'll make fun of my voice. Okay. And my breathing. She's a heavy either. Did you have you breathe miss episode over? Yeah. I guess you're like people pick like they'll talk shit on mother. Teresa, they can. Yeah. Like people are such decks, not makes fun of Billy. He's the only people make fun of me. Don't worry. Yeah, we've make fun. And you guys you guys make enough. Exactly. So, but, you know, I think it's your what I always say about true crime and people always ask me, why is true crime so popular in this, and that, and I say, well, the, the thing that always bothers me about crimes that you have a thousand super villains. And so few superheroes, you've got Bundy and gay see and Jack the ripper and son of Sam, and all of this on one side. And then when you think about the heroes, I they're often, you know, nameless and faceless. Because they're doing the work, you know, behind the scenes, or whatever you can mention John Walsh, or, or somebody like that. But, you know, the more that we can show survivors, and somebody that is now thriving, I think is viewed. So it's the it's my way of saying that you're a superhero. Poetic. Being here like this was so cool for us to actually get a talk to you face to face. And you're so wonderful and yeah. No, we're so excited. The excited. Big things on the horizon. I know. Yes. And we'll see a crime cons. Yeah. Everybody come to crime. Come see this is going to be the best like, posse drink getting coffee. We know we're going to force your with your friend at crow on, I will be your friend. I didn't realize. Cutting down the Long Beach. Like walking around. Yes. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. You're Instagram's just Tara knew. All right. Yeah. Volunteer on Instagram will be posted from crime gun. And if you guys have a story, we would love to share it. So DM's on Instagram at the first degree out Alexis linkletter, Jack manic at Billy Jensen and yeah. And happy. Happy bitch. Attitude, dancing. Universal Orlando resort plunges you into unimaginable realms of horror at the world's premier Halloween event Halloween horror nights, select nights, September sixth through November second on a vent nights at Universal Studios, Florida when the sun goes down the mutants and the monsters rise up filling the theme park with the sounds of endless screams, from cinematic classics and current Colt favorites to the park's original abominations, every year, universal Orlando brings the work of the greatest names in horror to life, exploring credibly, detailed haunted, houses, each theme, two different horror icons this year, including an all new house that takes you into the world of net. Netflixing is stranger things two and three you'll make your way through. Darkened scares Jones with ghoulish creature's around every turn, you'll enjoy outrageous, live entertainment, and you can experience the thrills and excitement of many of Universal Studios in most popular rides, and attractions, face your deepest fears and. Step inside your worst nightmares Halloween horror nights select nights September six through November second. For more information visit Halloween horror nights dot com. I'm Rita Foley with an AP newsmen at two days of ceremonies marking the seventy fifth anniversary of d day or underway in Portsmouth England, where Queen Elizabeth saluted the men who landed that day on the beaches of France. Many of them would never return and the Harare heroism courage. Sacrifice of those who lost their lives will never be forgotten. President Trump read from prey, or the president Roosevelt offered on June sixth, nineteen forty four. Our son's pride of our nation. This day have set upon mighty endeavor, a struggle to preserve our Republic, our religion and our civilization and to set free a suffering humanity. Today's event was part of extensive ceremonies in France, and Britain, marking the seventy fifth anniversary. I'm Rita Foley.

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Lorena Bobbitt

The First Degree

1:18:17 hr | 2 months ago

Lorena Bobbitt

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on spotify apple podcasts. Podcast one dot com in anywhere else. You podcasts last week. We told you all about Cowdrey. And we're going to tell you about it again. Cordray is a consciously crafted home in body care brand that combines thoughtful ingredients with a delectable sense making caring for ourselves and our homes a truly beautiful experience the finishing touch to crafting a beautiful home keeping experience. Cordray's hair care products. Transform your home with a favorite fragrances. Immersing you in luxury in every single room anchor products like Lenin and room. Spray and candles can help you instantly. Turn your home into somewhere. You want to be in this time. Where we're spending a lot more time at home these little indulgences make every day feel like a spa day. A treat yourself day a pamper day and fragrance really can transform the feeling in a room for me personally. The salt and really is my favorite and it is reminding me of being on vacation in Hawaii and it's a trip. I was actually supposed to go on so it gives me a little bit of that vacation. Feeling while I'm sitting at home get free shipping on all orders of fifty dollars or more. When you buy online I call DRE DOT com. That's L. D. R. E. A. Dot Com visit cordray add dot COM. And Find Your signature scent plus degree degree degree. I The I agree movies. First of all they get it wrong. They missed the big over. Tunji at tank about this crisis of domestic violence and sexual assault. They always wanted to talk about the sensationalistic and alluring detail. Details about me. Cutting off my ex-husband's penis off. So it's really sad that the media portray me as a crazy hot blooded Latina which is basically a race statement as well so I wanted to set the record straight that a lot of women who actually wanted to talk about the issues of domestic violence and sexual assault couldn't because their boss were men while the first degree that true crime. Podcast that you might end up on my name. Is Jack Panic. I'm sitting away from Alexis Link Ladder and father away from Billy Johnson. It is eleven. Am and Miss Alexis. What are you drinking? I'm drinking a Rosa and orange blood. Orange Soda Spitzer with blackberries in. It sounds delicious. It's called self care. It is called self care and you know I saw that. There was a study about all. This is a Sunday. We're not during working hours but there was a study done that I think. Forty percent of people are drinking during working hours. So this is just. This is our new normal. You guys that we've been living in forever and I just started. Yeah that's true and I start drinking just a slightly earlier than I used to. It used to be like seven now. It's four was. I won't do it in the morning. But four o'clock my See Mornings my ideal time to drink. But you know that's because you go to bed at six. Yes I know. Gives me a full full day to enjoy the festivities? But anyways billy what day is it today it has nothing to fear day. Oh that's yes interesting here but here itself. Yeah there's also it's also old time player Piano Day but I know that that would just bring on a lot of old jokes towards me You're you're projecting we were going to say you love. Pno's any other good days. No that's pretty much it. I think we're well Alexis says that's enough of that. So let's turn down the lights and turn on your anxiety because this could be The Story Lorena Bobbitt drew media attention in Nineteen ninety-three for being one of the most disturbing domestic dispute stories to ever hit the news. Lorraina was not the first woman to ever fight back against her husband and she wasn't the last but her story was one of the first to change the way the world perceived domestic abuse and sexual assault laurynas sent a chill down the spine of abusers from around the world. Because with that kind of a knife she wasn't only asking for things to change but she was screaming for it. Demanding it in the entire world hurt her. So today's case takes us back to June twenty third of nineteen ninety-three Bill Clinton was president. That's the way love goes by. Janet Jackson was on the Charts and the movie. Jurassic Park was the top at the movie theaters and the setting for today's case. Manassas town northern Virginia which acts as a bedroom community to Washington. Dc resign twenty five miles away from the suburban area and the place is rich in American history. And it was the site of two civil war battles battle bull run by a rower and two and re-enactors often depict those battles near the MANASSAS national battlefield. Park. It's quiet and for the most part. It floats under the radar as far as scandals are concerned but all of that was about to change between two and three. Am On the twenty third of June nineteen ninety-three calls between law enforcement officers started ping pong in between one. Another in the information that was being shared was shocking and confusing. There was a man at Prince George's hospital who's bleeding profusely. What happened? His penis had been cut off. Did it is wife her name. Lorena Bobbitt this is a narrative that many of you know but what many of you won't be familiar with is exactly how this happened. How did Lorena Bobbitt become arena bob it and beyond that? What variables and Seidel implications contributed to the Lorena bobbitt phenomenon? We're all familiar with while to answer that. We need to go back to the beginning. Lorena Gallo was born in Ecuador in nineteen sixty nine before eventually moving to Venezuela where she was raised and it was during her childhood. There that Lorraina fell in love with American culture and this notion of the American dream so she decided she wanted to move to the US. She visited America when she was sixteen and she was given the trip to come visit as a consumer goofed and she just fell in love with life. Here when Lorraina got here. She didn't speak a word of English and she learned by taking. Esl classes in watching soap operas and the price is right on TV whenever she cut. She was here on a student visa and she started taking classes at Northern Virginia community. College between taking classes she worked as a manicurist salon owned by woman named Johnny Basuki in fact Jan owned three salons and she took Lorena under her wing and they became fast friends. It was details told near Quantico that Lorraina was approached by a handsome marine lance corporal named John Wayne Bobbitt. John was from Niagara Falls when growing up. His father was not really in the picture. And there's a few of the sad details about John's childhood was that his father drank and beat his mother which caused a really volatile environment by h three John and his two brothers were taken away from his mother due to drug use and neglect and they were sent to live with an aunt and uncle when John was old enough he enlisted in the Marines which ultimately brought him to Virginia which then brought into this dance hall where he met Lorraine and Lorraine was and still is stunning and exotic when the two met apparently the attraction was undeniable in an interview for the Amazon Documentary Lorraina. She said I thought John was very handsome. Blue is a man in uniform you know. He was almost like a symbol a marine fighting for the country. I believed in this beautiful country. I was swept off my feet. I wanted my American dream so they started dating and things moved quickly in the pair got married nine months later in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. Their wedding small and performed by a justice of the peace and rain expected marital bliss to ensue. But that's not exactly what happened. So the domestic abuse started almost immediately and by ninety one John had been discharged from the marines and he found himself without a steady paycheck. And this prompted then twenty two year old. Lorraina to become the breadwinner of the family during this time. Lorraina worked as a nanny Virginia area and she continued to work at the beauty salon owned by her good friend. Janet and in this Amazon Series. Lorena said that one month after she and John remarried the to driving in the car and John started driving radically Lori and ask them to stop pleasing her hands on the steering wheel and trying to straighten out their route and it was in this moment that John allegedly punched her for the first time. And this wouldn't be the last time. More fighting ensued and escalated both called nine one one on each other but the violence continued and being the breadwinner. Lorraina felt immense pressure to provide for them to the point where she actually started embezzling money from the salon where she worked over. Seven thousand dollars and remember Jonah. The store owner who had become so close with the Raina. She realized what was going on. So she actually let Lorraina keep her job at the salon but made her payback the money with interest. You knew she was having these awful times at home but remember it's nineteen ninety-three it's Nassar's Virginia. Lorraina has newly arrived in this country. Relatively her family's not here and there were very little resources for her to turn to as far as getting out of her situation that time I didn't have the resources Like we have now for example cell phones the Internet so I couldn't really search for any resources. On there is no hotline. The violence against women's act was not was in diapers basically didn't really exist. It like I said women did not when I called it believes Did this catchers of the nine one. One didn't know how to help me. Because ending know how to handle The victims of domestic violence or the police either in a had to sleeping might call our many times shelters There's no shelters in my community. There was a one shelter that it was were homeless. There was no domestic violence shelters. Even now there's still one shelter and provide eighteen beds in my community of Almost a million people in my family was in. I'm from Ecuador in I grew up in Venezuela and so my family wasn't Venezuela I came from Venezuela and My family away from home was a very sweet nice family That took me in France of my family and a John did estimate may from them. I have no idea what was that of Alex. And little by little he also relate me from my friends in. There's no way that I I have. I can have phone calls. Because he got jealous. I didn't see the red flags of that. I didn't see those signs. You know When I met him was basically it was a nice guy. I mean he was very charming. I wasn't very young naive girl anyway. He was my first love so I wasn't sure what was going on with. This and Lorena was not only being abused. She was so isolated. Remember she didn't have any family in this country so she you know. Just think about that you you. It's your second language. You don't have any family in this country. You marry this guy that's supposed to be your dream guy and then he just starts beating you and you're also twenty two and you become the breadwinner to take on as time moved on. Things didn't get any easier. Lorraina and John's house went into foreclosure. It would break up and make up and rinse and repeat more turbulence Lorraine learned that she was pregnant and when asked later about this time John and Lorena tell different stories. How this exactly went down. According to Lorraina she was excited to start a family until on the news and he was less than thrilled to hear about it. She said that John Didn't think he was ready to be. Add threatened to leave if Lorraina wanted to keep the baby so Lorena didn't have anyone else in this country. She was in her early twenties and didn't want to raise a baby on her own understandably so according to John He'll arena agreed that it wasn't the right time for two of them to have a kid and they decided on an abortion together but she claims that John was the one who suggested she get the abortion or he'll leave so by June twenty second of nineteen ninety-three John and Lorena had been married for about four years. And it's on this day that the subject of separating and possibly divorcing had come up in conversation between the two. This conversation was heated and afterwards learning. What to the police station to ask whether or not she could get a protective order against John. The police said yes she could but they said it would take about three hours to process all the paperwork for the situation and for whatever reason Lorena didn't WanNa wait the three hours and then she left or was forced to leave and that same evening John had named Robert Johnson staying with them so John took his buddy out for some good old fashioned drinking. When John and Robert got back from the bars Robert went to his guest room and John got into bed and fell asleep and he was severely intoxicated. Then as Lorena tells it John Sexually assaulted her and forcibly raped her. After that Lorraina went to the kitchen to get some water in the kitchen she sees a knife sitting next to the kitchen sink and she picks it up. She goes back into the bedroom and then she slices. John's penis off and since John was so heavily intoxicated. He didn't really realize four. Feel or understand the gravity of what was going on and he certainly didn't understand. How severe or serious is in was until moments later? He laid in bed momentarily as blood started to pool on the sheets. And once he did realize lorraine had done he screamed. He woke up his friend. Robert in the two of them rushed to the hospital. And while this is happening laurynas speeding off in her. Nineteen ninety-one Mercury Capri as fast as she could and she told. Abc News and in Nineteen ninety-three interview that she was so distraught after she had named her husband that she wasn't even aware of the fact that she was holding the penis when she got into her car. And once this registered tour she throws it out of the car window and then drove over her friend Janice House genocide that when she saw Lorraina her door crying she believed that John Again had done something to hurt. Lorraina and Janna was well aware of his track record of abusing her so when Lorena told her that she had cut John's penis off Gina's mouth was on the floor sobbing. Lorena gave her a rough estimate as where the location was that she threw the penis out the window and it was in a field across the street from seven eleven within ten minutes of the incident John was at Prince William Hill and as he was being examined the doctors determined John had actually lost a third of his blood volume by this point so there were two things happening when he was in the Er. The doctors wanted to make sure John didn't die and they also wanted to reattach his penis but there was just one problem. They didn't have the penis and they didn't know where it was but the police were trying to remedy that now. The investigators were on board and they had learned where Lorraina had tossed the penis out while she was driving so they had a team of officers searching for it in just an aside. I was watching that Amazon Documentary Lorraina and they interview the doctor and when he was called is in the middle of the night he was on call and he was a urologist in had heard what happened. He was preparing to do a procedure that would whole his jury throughout and he was going to trim the rest of the penis so he would have to sit down like a woman. If they didn't find the peanuts that's what they would have had to do for him. Bright so that's what they were preparing go. You don't have it. I mean the clock is ticking. Appendages GonNa die if it's not sound right away and put on ice so everyone was freaking out that this guy might lose forever as billy said. The police were searching for it by that field at seven. Eleven because they had found out from Janet at that point where it like where Lorraina had thrown it in. The situation was looking grim because when the police got there this field was huge and there was really tall grass everywhere and they really doubted whether they would find this peanuts time for it to still be viable reattachment because back at the hospital. John was being prepped for emergency surgery and was starting to panic and freak out and lose hope that he would be penis less for the rest of his life but in a stroke of good luck or good detective work. The police found the dismembered penis. They ran into the seven eleven. They put on ice and they put it in a brown hotdog bag and ran into the hospital. Give the surgeons who would be working on. John was nearly six. Am when John was finally taken into the operating room for what would end up being a nine hour surgery so now the process of reattaching appeanas actually not that difficult. As far as reattaching appendages goes and I was shocked about this because it seems like it would be extremely difficult. The doctor who did it had never done before really yes so I thought that was fascinating because it is fingers are harder. I mean penises. Don't move on their own without blood rushing into them. You don't even fingers muscles so you're you're having to deal with a lot more nerves in your finger that need to re attach and be able to communicate with your brain to move. A peanut doesn't really need the same way. It just needs stimulation of blood can rush to it so it isn't the easiest. Probably the easiest of the appendages. According to the doctor who did it shocking. Okay so the penis is essentially made up of arteries veins nerves and then there's the urea threat and typically the way that the penis was severed in packs. How easy it is to repair. And if the cut is clean like it was in Bobbitt's case it's much easier to reconnect. So he was super lucky and when John Woke up from surgery. The doctors told him that they had successfully reattached his penis. Right and on the heels of what you said though so in cases where there have been cases where women are raped or assaulted. And if you bite Aquinas. Off Your odds of reattaching it are really low really limit for it's a mess and the bacteria just causes the appendage to be a lot less viable a lot more quickly so in those you hear you've heard about those cases they do on. They have on law and order. Svu All the time too. It's they have it in movies. You see that and in those situations you wouldn't be able to reattach the same way not with this kind of excess and while the surgery was a success and without complications they still move. John to the ICU. But not for reasons. You're probably thinking. They moved in there because the Washington Post had caught wind of the story so word was spreading. The media was already starting to swarm at the hospital. Lorraina was arrested that evening and by then. The story was everywhere. She was facing charges of malicious wounding. And looking at up to twenty years in prison if convicted and you can you can see that this would happen just having worked in it in newspapers. You have sources. It's not even just sources you have sources at at the hospitals. If you hear that somebody's penis was cut off. That is going to travel throughout the hospital. Somebody before social media. Somebody's going to call their friend who works with The newspaper it's going to happen no matter what so. You don't need social media for something like this to happen or cell phones. What we what we were talking about the top of the episode. Where win the initial calls came in about this? And we said the information was confused so the dispatchers were actually speaking trying to avoid the term. They kept saying he's been maimed. Here's an appendage. Because they didn't want to say it because obviously journalist listens to listen to police radios so and they knew that in the interview the dispatcher. And she's like I was trying not to be too explicit because I knew they would cling to this like. You just said billy where it's like. Oh a good juicy domestic husband wife you FEM fatale story and they knew that we're all familiar with Lorraina BOBBITT's name. Have we ever really thought about why? Why almost thirty years later we know about this case in why we're still talking about it when no one died. The stakes are lower compared to other crimes that have drawn this kind of media attention so John's penis was reattached in was functional again. He's still got peanuts. It's not even like he was permanently maimed. I think it's because draw to this story was not about the tangible elements of what happened. It was about the message. Is and Halloween. Is Actions challenged the status quo especially in a place like Virginia? Laurynas actions demand attention and demanded progress. It was sort of a rebellion against the tolerance of domestic violence. I think is a combination of everything I mean. First of all Yeah a lot of the nature of the case People were infatuated on to turn on the TV CAMERAS. Were not that was the first time the AMAS were allowed in the courtroom and they were actually doing an experiment to to bring core cases in two living rooms of homes in America. You know and so when Mike case happened court. Tv was baby. You know like the they actually had. It was a gift for them. My case it. They were very excited and in all they wanted to do the ratings. Where up The salacious stories came up and people were actually infatuated about that. There was a combination of everything was Immigra- Aman Amy Grant And there's a lot of issues about immigrant women Immigrant women so far allowed because they don't call the police. Um so you know the support the the way how. The media treated me As a hub light bloody Latina. That was an issue of racism so people wearing to you know those kind of issues so it was a combination of everything a and also. I think you know man feel vulnerable because I threatened. I caught my ex-husband masculinity and they believe that must be there they're peanuts was or is everything and you know so. They felt threatened. That may be an mendacity. Why they turned into joke to neutralize This kind of situation that was. There's no way they couldn't believe something like is such thing happen so laurine was charged with militias wounding immediately but once. Lorena side of the story leaked to the press. Women's group made themselves heard. They were outraged that John Wasn't facing charges rightfully so but charging John had some difficult implications. And here's why so at the time in Virginia and about fifty percent of the other states. In America there were pretty archaic laws as far as Spousal rape is concerned in Virginia. If you were to be convicted of spousal rape you'd be facing a possible life. Sentence and qualifying for these charges was really difficult. In order for the charges to apply the two spouses would need to be separated. When the sexual assault occurred and another contingency was the assault would have needed to result in permanent bodily damage. So if you break this down and meant that even if the couple is separated and the husband raped his wife if he managed to do it without permanently naming her he wouldn't qualify for this charge at all so instead John was charged with marital sexual abuse which carried a possible. Twenty year sentence instead of the Max of life that applied in the spousal rape charges. John and Lorena. We're going to have separate trials and the questions that were asked in each this. Is He a habitual batterer? Who forced a young woman over the edge or was she this calculated hot blooded Latina? Who wanted to hurt her husband when he threatened to leave her and just fabricated this rape to justify it in a lot of people man mostly feel very compassionate just for then made her own. The case You know he lost his Male or so absolutely. The country was divided into two women were supported of me and especially you know advocates and activists feminist groups etc Inches Women Gentlemen in general In men were with him so I was the one who basically was the gains man or there were portraying me that weight so that was a gender inequality basically and still I think that You know we still even a patriarchal society. John's trial commenced in November of nineteen ninety-three in the court determined that his case had a quote unquote sexual component. So this meant that the news networks needed permission to film and air the trial national TV from the defense and from John and of course. John's defense declined so John's whole thing was he wanted his dignity intact. He didn't feel he should have to testify in front of the world things like that. They did not know how to charge Tam basically so they ended up charging ham for a marital rape but They do not charge him with domestic violence and Know he's Trial less three days and Might try lasted twelve days so I was unfortunately that we couldn't even talk about domestic violence on his trial during the proceedings. The jury was instructed to consider the night in question in they could only also consider what went on in John and Lorraine is relationship within the five days prior to the incident which is very restricting. If you're trying to prove a pattern of abuse in fact it basically sabotages her defense entirely in. This was because of the laws in Virginia. At the time which should not look favorably upon sexual assault victims prosecutors grill arena about these five days on the stand in one instance. Lorena testified that John Marshall to have sex one day but then stated that she consented to sex the following so the prosecutor essentially mocked and berated. Her in a tone that suggested she was lying. How could a woman consent one day and be raped the next while laurynas responses? Sometimes she just gave in and said yes because he was just going to do it anyway and like we know sexual assaults and abuse with a marriage is not so black and white is just not you can love your husband one day and he can hurt you the next and that's not a woman's fault you know more. Ns situation where. She's obviously scared of her partner. I mean her saying yes and giving in those times doesn't mean like she's scared and she's being forced into it some of those times as well so it's just it is very gray and it's hard to prove either way of course domestic abuse victims feel. They're always hoping that their their partner will go back to the person. They met outlines exactly so if if their husband occasionally shows like glimpse of love or shows a glimpse of how wasn't the beginning a woman will get excited and cling to that like maybe things are changing now so of course it makes sense. She can consent one day and not the next. It's just a ridiculous thing to presser on. It is a crazy world that we live in and it seems like overnight. Technology has just exploded. Everything is being done online meetings school. You name it. They're doing it but unfortunately one thing has stayed the same in that is coloring your hair so you only have a couple options really. You can go to a traditional salon and spend lots of time and money or grab a box of hair-color from a drugstore which always dries her hair out and makes it break off or you could do the new way. Madison read it. Took a very very strong independent thinking woman to shake up the hair coloring world in Amy Eric Digest that with Madison. Reed the company. 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They freeze organic fruits and vegetables at peak ripeness to lock in nutrients and taste my favorite daily harvest. Cup is the Cacao with meant. It's like shake and it's wonderful and I drink it. Virtually every day daily harvest is also committed to minimizing their environmental impact in the process of transition. To one hundred percent compostable recyclable. Packaging go to daily harvest dot com and enter Promo Code I to get twenty five dollars off your first box. That's Promo Code. I for twenty five dollars off your first box. At Daily Harvest Dot Com daily harvest dot com so during the trial. John denied ever forcibly having sex with arena. He denied hitting her. He called her a liar and blamed all the relationships problems on her. He cited her temper as the reason for fighting in the relationship and the only mission he did make in terms of any physical altercations between them. Was that there had been some quote unquote pushing and shoving and their relationship. And what we have to remember about this. Entire trial is that we're talking about consensual sex versus forced rape. It's a he said she said kind of thing. And there isn't always evidence as about credibility and remember this is the Nineteen Ninety S. We're in a super conservative. Courtroom Lorraina is an immigrant from Central America and English as our second language. Oh and she's a woman and we're GONNA stay were to be indicted for spousal rape someone has to have caused permanent disfigurement and or maiming. The victim there wasn't much confidence that John was going to be found guilty and he wasn't. He was acquitted so a and he ended up being acquitted. I think the outcome would have been different. If we were even now we would talk about his trial now Sir. I I believe that he would being convicted. So a Lotta things have changed but You know little by little. We seem to step in the make. Ten steps in the right direction and But still a lot more much more work needs to be done. Even though cameras weren't allowed in the courtroom John's trial got a lot of coverage but it was nothing compared to that of his trial. This case had all the trappings of what we've seen at spectacles such as the Ted Bundy execution or the OJ. Trial people were selling t shirts. One shirt said MANASSAS. Va a cut above the rest and then they were boxer shorts that were sold that said. Vanessa's Va. Don't cut me short. Remember it's the ninety s and everyone in America was having a honeymoon period with outlets like court. Tv and it really was the precursor to reality TV when you think about it the characters in this trial they were a tabloid dream. And this time the world would get to watch every second of what was playing right so remember during John's trial. His case was determined to have sexual components therefore he has lawyers were given the choice about having the proceedings televised. You know to protect his privacy his dignity and for whatever reason Lorraina was not extended that same courtesy they concluded that Laurynas case was not a case with a sexual component. Even though the case was about Lorraina cutting off a sexual organ in response to being raped by her partner so in opinion. Personally I interpret this to mean that the political powers-that-be Manassas at the time didn't really care to preserve her dignity they wanted to publicly condemn. Lorraina and make an example out of her abuse victims. CaN'T RETALIATE. That's the message they're sending here and we're going to put this on display for the world to see first of all they get it wrong. They missed the big opportunity to talk about this crisis of domestic violence and sexual assault. They always wanted to talk about sensationalistic and alluring. Details details about me cutting off my ex-husband's peanut saw so it's really sad that the media portray me as a crazy hug bloody Latina which is basically raisin statement as well so I wanted to set the record straight that a lot of women who actually wanted to talk about the issues of domestic violence and sexual assault couldn't because the boss where men so Lorena trial started on January tenth nineteen ninety four when she pulled up in her car to enter the courtroom. There was a barrage of flashbulbs. A mob of more than two hundred reporters from around the world journalists as far as Japan had flown in. For this case there are more than twenty satellite trucks that lined up the streets. The atmosphere at the courthouse was extremely tense. According to a Newsweek poll that was conducted at the time it said sixty percent of the country was planning to watch this trial unfold so it was a huge huge deal and the stakes were high for Lorraina. She was facing twenty years from maliciously wounding John. But what a lot of people don't know is that prior to the trial the prosecution had offered. Lorena a plea deal. They said that if she admitted to the fact of cutting John's peanuts was a premeditated action. She would only get four months in jail and probation Lorena refused. She wasn't going to admit to something that wasn't true and also if she pleaded guilty to a felony she more than likely would never get an American citizenship and this is just something that she didn't want to risk giving up so imagine the stress and pressure of this whole situation lorraine at this time was only twenty four years old. And that's ten years younger than Alexis and I and I think that we forget how young she was at the time. All this happened. It's intense and when you see the old footage of the trial coverage you see her being pulled up in a car in the back and she just looks devastated to be in the middle of this it. It really is sad and another thing. That's sad is there is obviously media bias as well because so many of these details about this abuse was not and is not commonly known. I mean the whole world was watching my trial. I mean literally. So I'm I was very recognizable because a lot of there there were More of the devices like I said there who were in journalism where men so. The opportunity was not only lost in this hails of the. Know Elson session enlisted story but it was actually lost because the patch we are society there was among the male reporters of mailboxes. Who were in their twenty. Four seven cycle media cycle opening arguments commenced. We have is rain. Violence Lights just opposed against John. Wayne Bobbitt Penis. The evidence will show that it was his penis from which she could not escape which caused through the pain. The most fear humiliation submit to you that the case you will come to one conclusion and that is valuable feeds now. Luckily in mistrial the jury would in could hear everything about Lorraina and John's relationship in Lorena was not restricted to talking about just the five days of their relationship that happened prior to the incident. She could talk about the abuse that started from day. One and she did. He kicked me. He told me that I told you to not cry. And he slapped me on my faith people my hair in my face down. Yes he he about an animal the ask you. Because witnesses recalled in their testimony really supported Lorraine his version of events and the testimony was very disturbing and remember. These are friends of John's. It's not like these are Lorraine's friends testifying that they heard this friends of John's said the John had told them that he loved for sodomy that he laughed about making women bleed during sex. That forced sex excited him. If these are John's friends why would they say this? If this wasn't true others said they'd seen Lorraina with bruising on her face on her arms on her legs neighbors saw her makeup on her face in trying to hide bruises and they would see John Forcing Lorraina to carry heavy things as he walked behind her casually. He told friends that he liked to rape lorraina explicitly in Lorraine is friends and people knew. Lorraina testified as well. Women's defensive brooding over the top and cards and the girl into her hairline and fame flying inbound her neck shoulders before I not however notice that all the rest of your body before depression was very noted to sadness was very noticeable in casually. When she was doing my now she burst into tears. There's testimony that detailed how there are tests conducted on Lorena the day of the incident and these tests confirm that Laurean did have sex or she had been raped before she cut off John's penis however John completely denied having any sexual contact with Lorraine at all that day even though there was proof that he was lying and in fact John Story about how things unfolded change several times and disdained his credibility to some of the most compelling testimony came from a neighbor of Lorraina. John. Heard things that night people having sex. These weren't the thing. How did they differed? They differed a lot of time other than headboard the wall. It would bid me. This woman was having screaming. I mean she would scream out every second and then into continues he trunk. He wanted to have sex. She didn't that's her right. Force turn have sex. She was angry. She retaliated against. But you know we don't live in a society that is governed by revenge. We don't live in a society in which whoever has the biggest nice it was probably one of the most bizarre accidents happen. This could forget a Lo long term. Everything about this case. It is so unique what she did going out of that house. With a Gameboy. A PENIS IN THE HAND. Everything about this case is praising bazaar versus a classic severe resistible impulse after the last witnesses were called. An eastside made their closing arguments. The jury was sent into deliberation and the world was on the edge of their seat waiting for this verdict. Jerry having been converted beginning in the Congo Virginia. Lorraine out in the Norfolk criminal number. Three three eight to one we. The jury find the defendant Lorraina Father not guilty polishes wounding as charged in the indictment by reason of insanity signed play at Cacao for for me becoming richer jury report. They didn't general the jury. Let me thank you for the time and effort you put into this matter. And he's taken to this time. I'll have all parties to remain in the courtroom and be quiet and what a lot of people don't realize don't remember is that Lorena Bobbitt was actually found not guilty and she was found not guilty due to insanity causing an irresistible impulse to sexually wound John so as a result of that she could not be held liable for her actions. Yes that is correct. I was fine no guilty. I don't have any criminal records and A lot of people think you know I went to jail or went to prison for a long time or you know what happened. Really so We actually we both file out not guilty. Hey stew over. He was accused of marital rape. The most interesting thing about this is that I didn't know she was found not guilty. I didn't just from from everything I heard again me. Jack were too young for this to understand and and watch the trial but I had no idea just because what you hear about her. The jokes that are made the the assumption is that she was found guilty in. Probably got in trouble for this. But that's not actually true rape raid. It doesn't matter it's a crime in victim the victim so whether he's a women or is child you know to get a sexual assaulter. Why Dave Make Fun of of me? Why fate make fun of Omega songs about about it and and take it you know but that is the culture. There will event people were uneducated about domestic violence at the time now. There is awareness more people more advocates educating our society and that is great seat so after the trial the media obsession with John and Lorena didn't taper off. That's because from one side. There was an uproar over. Lorraine his acquittal and there was also resounding support for her acquittal on the other side. Women's groups from around the world saw this as progress if immigrant woman from Central America can be acquitted for castrating her white husband after she was sexually assaulted after a relationship of abuse in small towns Virginia. Then maybe this meant things. Were changing celebrities. Politicians from all over the world were weighing in. Everyone had an opinion and it showed up and a lot of places in pop. Culture was actually the cold open of the January Fifteenth Nineteen ninety-four episode of Saturday. Night live with Mike Myers playing John Wayne Bobbitt on the witness stand before another pop culture criminal Tonya. Harding comes by and beats his crotch repeatedly with a bat and the media coverage continued but there was only one of them who is stoking. The fire under Virginia Law a contingency of his acquittal was that since she was declared insane during that brief time period when the incident occurred she needed to undergo a psych evaluation and she was sent to a mental hospital for forty five days after those forty five days. Were up the core and her doctors reevaluated. Her mental state and they ultimately decided that she was no harm to herself or to others and she was released and while this is all happening. John was making the rounds on the talk show circuit. He was a guest on radio shows and TV segments and then six months later he made a really bold move right so after the trial John moved to Las Vegas in there. He met porn legend. Ron Jeremy Clearly. Ron must have inspired him in some unique way because six months after the trial John starred in an adult. Some John Wayne Bobbitt uncut during interview with Vanity Fair. John explained of the adult film quote. A porno seemed like the best way to show. My Penis worked only wasn't all the way healed yet. I realize now that was the point. I really think it's worth discussing that John Bobbitt following the trial just did the mainly things publicly. He Whitney moved to a ranch and he was like a cowboy and he was like. Latte last swing cattle and doing interviews dressed as a cowboy. We get on your penis works. Well we did it and you know we will talk about this in killing time. About men just being blubbering idiot. Sometimes but it's like his manhood was literally cut off his body so for him. That's probably the biggest nightmare a man so it's like I'm GonNa do a porn and show. It still works and having to go get a horse in. I'm going to go women in a pornography film in. It's like to show that I'm still a man exactly. Yeah on the nose. John Bob too on the nose house. Now we've been more subtle like build a house shirtless or like building a house. Well and the thing. He didn't have a job either right so he probably was feeling quite emasculated for a while to maybe go go get a career. Put on a suit something. Get a nice pair of dress shoes. But he was also showing his true colors because shortly before the release of his porn John was charged with misdemeanor domestic battery against his new girlfriend. Kristina Elliott these charges for the supported. Lorraina side of the story. He served twelve days of fifteen day sentence but that negative press didn't sway John from still seeking the spotlight and trying to prove how much of a man he was. He made a second porn franken penis which made his debut in one thousand nine hundred eighty six now. Why would John do another porn? The world need to John. Bobbitt sex tapes probably not but John had agreed to do it after accepting an offer from Howard. Stern for reconstructive plastic surgery for his penis to enlarge it even further and he was not going to be turning that down gross. So Howard Stern talked about the case frequently on a show and he had John Bobbitt on his a guest in nineteen ninety-three for his New Year's Eve special and they raised two hundred fifty thousand dollars to help cover the outstanding costs surgery and in one interview Howard was quoted as saying and this is one of the most disgusting quotes. I've ever heard quote. I don't even by this whole story that he was raping her. She's not that great looking disgusting. It's it really is like one of the most enraging comments that I've probably ever heard my entire life but aside from all this like Howard stern trash. There was also a handful of incidents of copycat crimes after the situation and they're called Baba Mania and it was after the incident. Most of them were self inflicted wounds but it was a whole thing. That was happening. And there is also the bobbit worm which was a worm that taxes to pray with scissor like jaws and this is named after the case as well. So there's all this pop no it's an actual worm like a real worm that a real worm identify words of worm. Bobbitt's were bobbit worm. Come on signed his stoop better than that to better. That's crazy. No the you know the person that named it to probably like I got it. I'm so clever. Flimsy was probably a man so so eventually the media coverage of the Bobby did taper off but the pop culture implications were there to stay and while no doubt lorraina experienced great difficulty during this period in her life she managed to turn this entire thing into something positive and find a silver lining. So it's been Basically almost thirty years three thickets has passed since it happened. There was a documentary air last year about my story. The documentary that Lorraina is referring to is the Amazon Docu series. Lorena a now by doing a lifetime movie so I think it is important to keep the issue of domestic violence and sexual violence It is an incredible platform to be able to do show the stories in a visual way like visual people have to visualize sometimes to say listen. I wanted to show this. I wanted to be transparent. I wanted to be very raw when I talk about it. And just as exactly what I? I've made this the stories. I wanted to people to look at in. This is this is real. This is what happened. This is real life and so I want people to connect with my story because there's a lot of women trapping situation so domestic violence. Did they don't know what to do? And I want to to see my movie to basically inspiring to get away from from this of Yousef situation to their leave. They are in a relationship. There is an incredible platform. I think is not only an incredible platform. It is Keisha as well for future generations do know the this critical issues do exist still now in. These discussions are particularly timely. Given what's happening in the current state of the world especially now with a winning the unfortunate result so coronavirus or cold at night teen Is is really affecting the rice domestic violence and sexual violence cases among women So many women feel that they're trapped in their homes with their abusers so as as survivor of domestic violence. I understand at first hand about the issues and I want to help the victims and I wanted to do provide by providing resources and in guidance. Oh my story is relatable In so many levels especially now like I said so. It's very important to to have this Communications about this critical issues open. Lorraina took back her maiden name Lorraina Gallo. She resumed working in salons and she quietly started dating a man named David. And she's still with David to this day more than twenty years later and they eventually had a daughter named Olivia. I found that people were my friends. Were very supportive. My community was Yeah I mean they recognize me. I never move out of my community. Because if I move I will be recognized everywhere You didn't affect my career. Thank God I was idea real estate for a while I was the I went back to the beauty industry as A. I went to school than I have my license as a hair style and I did hair for leaving for a while and then I went to school and school. Obviously a lot of people recognize me Just based on my face away I going to change myself so I learned to accept the fact that I did not choose to be in the spotlight Right now and the fact that but I stopped myself was very strengthened. Was One of my My strength they kept me through who I am and those pass a might lives. My my trauma actually have helped shape the person that I am today and you know he have actually understand the give me a platform to help others so When I met my partner obviously he knew who I was and so friendship. Friendship turning to respect and respect turning to love and you know. That's that's how he was. I didn't experience with my with John. In Two Thousand Seven Lorraina started a nonprofit called the Lorena Gallo Foundation which is an organization focused on helping to prevent domestic violence through family oriented activities and more years past awareness and condemnation of domestic violence increased as women started pushing back for their rights. The view of Lorraina also shifted and the more time passed the more. It was clear how terrible Lorraina was treated not only by John but by the rest of the world to they have grown more in but this generation will you know memory. I mean I'm talking to you. Your were problem not even born. I Dunno you've you look very young Thanks Lorena. So you know the time that We talking about almost thirty years so I think that the new generation has grown to be more empathetic more sympathetic about the stories and more curious and you know more women into rice. I mean we have more politician women in Congress so the hell lot and to shape the narrative about abuse women and As important I know when my store is and I was looking to get approach by Amazon Last year and They did a very good job. I'm happy with Doku serious Jordan Peele was wonderful his his a man who has a lot of social issues so I trusted him and the whole team of Amazon by then Same thing with a lifetime. Lifetime is an amazing network and day history of telling stories. They're relate to two people and they're very three. The story is the real stories with sensitivity. I think that that is actually Got My passion back to to even tell even more than I know that there are going to treat my story with sensitivity and respect in the lifetime project that Llerena is referring to is called. I was Lorena Bobbitt. And it premiered on Memorial Day two days ago on the lifetime network. I'm doing good. I'm doing fine. I I am happy blaze. I am in a better place I don't leave you know in the past I think the past did have helped me to save the person that I am today and have given me a platform to be able to help other women and You know anybody who is in an abusive relationship so is Is Good is good. Now we're going to keep my mission to help. Victims of domestic violence survivors because survivors. Also have ATS st and they need assistance as well. I will super super big thank you to Lorraine for sharing her story with us If you have a story to tall please email us. Hello. At the first degree. Podcast DOT COM can follow us on instagram. At the first degree out Alexis linkletter Johnson. Jack Vanik join our facebook page. Just search the first degree in the search bar and stick around. Because we're GONNA kill some time. Remember only you can prevent zero killers and keep your friends close. No it wasn't happy. Bob's type socks sources for today's episode include ABC Vanity Fair Amazon's Documentary Series Lorraina Rolling Stone Court Documents Court footage and Zoe's. Our first degree interview is always our largest source. It's here and I'd like to talk to you about sweat. Did you know that many conventional deodorants contain aluminum? Which forms plug in your sweat? Glands to keep from sweating YIKES NATIVES DEODORANT. His made without aluminum. So you can feel better about what you're putting on your body and it works making the switch suit aluminum radio nor does not mean you have to sacrifice on performance over ten cents including their classics and rotating seasonals. You're guaranteed to find one. You love got coconut vanilla. Lavender and rose cucumber mint. And the one that I'm wearing right now citrus and Moscow so if you WANNA try it out because it's pretty fantastic goto native deodorant dot COM. And you can get twenty percent off your first purchase using the Promo Code degree. That's twenty percent off your first purchase visit native Deodorant Dot Com and use the Promo code degree. Though were apart these days were sharing more and GYCO would just like to say thanks. Thanks for sharing. Your savage dance moves. Thanks for sharing your diy fails thanks for sharing your inner lip sync star now. It's GEICO's turned to share to with the GEICO. Give back a fifty percent credit on car and motorcycle policies for current new customers. And because GEICO's committed for the long haul. The fifteen percent credit lasts your full policy term visit GEICO DOT com slash give back for Info and eligibility learn more about GEICO's fifteen percent credit on car and motorcycle policies at Geiko dot com slash. Give back you know what I'm not a high school girl so sh- run for the hills. Those who says going out partying in a club. You can't find love. It's the Spidey podcast with Spencer in Heidi Pratt. Hello I'm not dead. If you and your husband go out every night good for you. Hey that was a joke. If you're an idiot beds you spoiled Brat. Your life is a basic new episodes every Monday on spotify podcast one and apple podcasts. Don't worry mom I got you. Alright well welcome to another episode of killing time. I thought Alexis just sent me an email. That said best friends. Hello but it was an email about best scenes and she got confused and excited by mine. Spontaneous love for her I did. I thought you're just reminding me. As we started to record that we are best friends. And that because Alexis gets nervous about this like social distancing thing that she can't touch people and she thinks that means that people are mad at her because people aren't hugging me goodbye. Or hello and I feel like this weird distance and any social distancing. I'm like when I leave. Rena fight or are we good. I just feel like everyone's mad at everyone. The love is not all right later by. Yeah feels like a dude like fist-bump bump and I'm not even you know air. Fist-bump is not enough affection for me as your love. Language Physical Touch. Yeah and words of valid words of affirmation affirmation gifts all of them by all the love languages to feel a little bit about myself. That's that's what I think too. When you know I think about my love. Language is are the mall. I don't know Sir. Yes yes `formation. Keleti time. Hello touch absolutely all of them. I love lingual. What about you billy. What's your love language just to be left alone as Dystonia true isolation? Billy's love language. So I'm feeling the love all over the place this with this pandemic Bl- you know it was so funny is jared and I did an episode of the Lady Yang and one of my questions was was the sweetest thing that either both of us have done for each other and his answer was that I leave him alone loud one number one. This is a lie because all he wants to do is like smother me with affection all the time. But I'm like this is a very interesting answer that you like to be left alone. And that's the nicest thing I've ever done for you. I love that. Savage response think he was just flexing on your love episode in a in a guy he probably sorry love. You is that okay. Afterwards he said that he thought about it for weeks on end and he he's like it was the wrong answer. I didn't mean it but the way he said it was very sweet. Where it's like. We're allowed to be independent and have her own time and be able to like wind down our own but he was a good didn't mean it. I love when you smother me. I need it all the time. Oh my God jared. I love that and also I love the dumb guy that you guys just did good. I do it about me grammatical error. I'm like oh I'm sorry. Is My eighteen hours of work not good enough for you. I've forgotten apostrophe is writer. That's that's dumb guy voiced but all guys are dumped is. I don't care how billy I know that you're like a borderline genius but you're still a dumb guy. Wait a second pay that kind of Shit. Be hearing about that for weeks. I call them stupid. He'll be like no. Jack said it was a borderline genius. Russia. What's your cue have you taken an Iq test sixty eight like that? Was Your Voice that great? That's the new voice. The deeper the dumber though. Yeah not no no no. That's the sound and I see men walking. That's the sound. They all know episode of Family Guy. When I think it's Stuey is like playing the trombone in back of people walking. That's pretty much how I see. Every man they're all just a level of it just doesn't you're all you're all there but what level. Reo Thank you well. It's not the reason for this. I was GONNA say quickey. I'm on the wrong podcast. The reason for this episode of killing time is billion. I both have books that are coming out next Tuesday. Billy's the paperback version of Chase Darkness. With me and mine. Is Our debut Book Lady Gang Called Act like a lady and it's weird that they're both coming out on the same day it is we would we would have been able to do a joint some tour or something like that and the books are so similar to so? I mean if you have one you'll love the other explain like it's different than the first one. My Book has. It's the same thing as the first one. But it's got a brand new bonus chapter about bear brook and how that mystery. Three three quarters of that mystery was solved and then a bunch of updates on other cases and it also has eight pages of exhilarating photos including me in my punk face. Exhilarating lanes last goth phase. Yes I call her they block and white. They're black white break. Come on we got to have two colors our book and Got Fund Say Jack. What is your favorite part of the Book Well yeah I mean so. It's separated into four parts so it's like your relationship with your lover which I hate that word lever self career and friends. It was obviously the most fun for me to write about love because most of those stories were just like my dating escapades that you know so much about Alexis and you also have so many stories so maybe one day we need to make a true crime. Slash like intervene personal. We have him because we have together. We have the craziest freaking stories in the entire world of dating in this Hellhole of Los Angeles but so I think that part of the book is my favorite. I'm GonNa make jared read the section about. It's basically a list of all the men that I dated and they all have nicknames like there's Mattress Mike who slept with his mattress on the ground which you have also dated one is well a few of those and what about the street performer. The street performer is in there. The A mime. So no have I dated am I am? I can't remember no these your friend Kendra is terrified of. She wouldn't have allowed that terrified of mimes know. This guy was A. He was a street performer and then he would make up all these different ways that he would know the superheroes I have. I have an entire chapter about this guy. That dress opposes Superhero on Hollywood boulevard. That's a whole chapter but the street performer guy. He performed all these plays in public bathrooms and then he would like sell his he would give his script for free so then they could also perform them in other public bathrooms so I was hot. Yeah and then. Also there's guy. There's a guy named Chad that you dated. Is the last guy that I dated before. Jared my current boyfriend and Chad still has cornhole boards because I went over to his apartment who he also lives. I live in Marina del Rey. He lives literally like two buildings over from me. I went over there. I brought my cornhole boards. We played Corn Hall. And they're still over there. And and the jared flexes here GonNa make some with my with my prayer ans- so I now you know it's a really. It's a step up dating. Jared Goff cornhole boards in your apartment. And that's why you've left them over there. I did leave. That is true. I've heard them and they were really shitty. Cheap cornhole board. I'm like you know you can you can take. I hope they also had a role. They also spiders all over them so it was just a had to get rid of him somehow but no. When I started dating jared his entire band I talked about shot a few times. We're hanging out and his entire band would not let him live down shad. What was the shad connection? Look what is the funny thing about shad? I don't remember his name right. Yeah it's a weird name. It was just. He's such I mean. Chad is the worst name that you can have as a man really like the Douche Baggy name and then you put it on the front of that Shad ooh shot is just a worst worst version of Chad. Yeah just like Shitty. It is worst version an idiot. Exactly just put outs on the front of something and it makes it like a million times more do she. She'll Alexis say show last shabbily. My name better shock. Kids solid. Yeah that should be your new nickname. Jackie chiles not bad silly at least perfect. I think we need an S. H. In front of everything though she'll lexus chalets pretty solid. It makes you sound like a you. Know what that's on. Shank THE SHANK. That's even better than than the. Shank is like will you? Yeah I'll thank you in a second. You see that grow over there. She's the Shank what's worse what's scarier the Shankar the tank the Shank. I actually think tank scarier you could see tank comments. Shank you know right right in the arteries a razor blade connected to toothbrush. But I I think I think the Shank is you know. I don't know it's too literal where it's like you know what the Shank means but the tank business ambiguous. You don't know what's coming you don't know when it hits you you know gun strapped to that thing. No one's sure how many men are in there. How many women are in there and he dogs in there. Who's to say? Oh who's to say? Are you going to get the Tattoo and a my drawing it for you? I don't know I have to talk to my parents my in that facebook group. And they've all like I've had a lot of backlash about this. Dodd commented. Yeah. I'm like okay great. I should probably remove them from the group which I will do and then we'll discuss it. If but I'm thinking probably WanNa get it if you do I would love to Dri- I have drawn a few tattoos before by a few. I mean one but this could be my second listen. You're drawing if it's happening. He'll be like our tattoos. Since you won't get one I'll have it by the plastics billie anything I would. I would like to try it. Actually can you draw not not a bit not at all solid but thanks billy what? Tattoo of yours and mine drawing. Because this is how this is how we're going to be bonded for I don't know what at Giraffe Giraffe. Yeah just sort of tall tall Taraf type person. I'm Co you're like a green or a stork stuck free or like a buzzard. A tall buzzer. Yeah like I put a dark clean without rain long neck. Actually think this is fun. What animals are we built a crane? Billy's definitely a crane. I mean I. I've been told more my whole life that I'm a monkey like my parents called me a monkey 'cause I would just like climb all over them. And then now. This is transferred also into jared. So that's what I've been told. Yes but you look more like you know what it is like a a sloth like a apathetic hospital still climbing and hang but you're pretty chill like my not knowing you know what I okay. I'll take slot. I learned about slots is their default Hand setting is closed and then they have to work to open. It says the opposite from people. So that's why they can cling onto trees for so long because it's easy because that's just their normal muscles and like a closed sloth lobby cute. Yeah well they have to go against gravity so that makes sense that like they're young practice shut instead of Ben. What animal obviously Something that's like really pretty but then really vicious Geese or swan at the Hollywood forever cemetery and I always feeding swans and I would feed them like Oh they like me. I would stop. They start hissing at you. I'm like yeah. I can be a Swan Day are terrifying vicious vicious vicious vicious geezer. So mean goose. Swans are pretty mean to so. I'M ONE OF THOSE. Mom got attacked by a goose traumatized for the rest of your life. It was terrifying scary there so scary. I avoid them like the plague if I if I see one of the geese though the geese will actually come up to you and want like. Hey what do you got? What do you got the swans? We'll just come up to you but stay stay like probably six feet apart and this be like you know what say and then this year. Whatever but they're not going to be like pestering you because they're like look at how pretty I am. Give me something with your goose I guess I'd really like to be Swan but whatever no I think it's interesting that geese hiss like cats. It's so weird. I mean. Swans off to do that knew the hissed mentally. Look this up. Yeah we'll revisit this though next time. Let's call it time. Death Fourteen fifty seven a quack.

John Lorena side Lorraina Lorena Bobbitt Virginia assault Lorraine Lorena rape Miss Alexis Billy Johnson Amazon Lorraina Gallo Janet Jackson Ecuador Spousal rape Jack Panic Lorraina
Ali Kemp

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Ali Kemp

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. One of the most annoying and time consuming things in the entire world is moving, and the worst part about moving is trying to find a new place to live that you absolutely love. And that's why I love one of our new sponsors apartments dot com and I actually use them to find my apartment that I live in now. So I love on a sponsor comes on that. I actually use in love and know about so apartments dot com has the most listings, which means you have the most apartments townhomes condos and houses to choose from to lock your full potential, and become the best version of yourself. You're in control of your rental future, and not to mention they have custom search tool. So if you're looking for something specific like pet friendly or commute friendly. You'll find it there and there's more with apartments dot com. What you see is what you rent they comb through all the listings, make sure all the information is verified and up to date. So no more wishing that you found your dream home and ends up being not even available at all. They're making hunting for a new process a breeze. So visit apartments dot com to find. The next place to rent change your apartment and change the world. Degree degree degree degree. I the first degree. He thinks he's supposed to happen in movies. Not we'll light. It wasn't very long after it was like a month or something after we had left college and had come home to my parents house that I walked in the door, and a member them watching the news, and they just turned and looked at me. And my mom said, I don't know, something to the sex of something happened to one of your sorority sisters and I was like what he's talking about. And then they just turned up the news. And I mean, it was all over the place at it was they were just describing what had happened will what they knew at that point. And that they didn't know what happened or who did it? But this is very of the way that he beat her. Is unbelievable. I don't I can't even fathom that kind of anger coming out of somebody. Pig is welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanik. I'm drinking corona. I'm sitting across Rolex this link linkletter drinking Arosa and next to Billy Johnson, who is out of beer who was finished as curl only brought to. So it'd be doesn't get any more. I mean, the only brought to so now we're done. I'm just going to jump into the day, then jump into the day, happy superman day. And the reason why I bring up superman out of all these other days that are up there this days. If you watch the movie Hollywood land, there is much discussion of about whether George Reeves, the original superman from the TV show actually aside now his name is George Reeves. He was the original superman. Critique shells as was as there is there is. Now, what a coincidence, is that, yes, it is? It's come welling. What about who was the hot one with the glasses Clark Kent? No. No, the hot guy. He was before him. Do you know what I'm talking about? But the black hair hit kind of like a roomful face. He was so hot Tom welling. No dean Cain. Dean cain. Do you remember dean Cain who wound up on like laundry, water, SVU episode? I really liked his face. He was a hot superman. Yes. But Henry Cavill is hot too. But George Reeves actually committed suicide. They there was some speculation that he was actually murdered. And if you watch the movie Hollywood land, it's a very good movie, and see they confidential. Yes. Okay. They, they talk about whether it was a murderer suicide or not the funniest thing about you. Billy as you have such a soft voice and Jerry, our producer has to, has to knock you up a bunch of a bunch of notches, and yet you still have your microphone far away from your face every time. Right. And we have to tell you to move closer like it's your first time. Podcast every week every every single week. Right. But it's because I'm in a living room now and not in front of a short. You gotta it's a hard world, you're gonna have a soft voice and a soft side, which you can see of Billy Jen, I agree. And honestly, I sent this to our group chat this morning. There's a Rolling Stone article or Rolling Stone, cover about Howard Stern, and it's the softer side of Howard Stern. And next up is going to be the software's ability Jensen's. Right. I'm going to be holding rescue kittens. Are you ready for your cover? I'm ready for my cover actually, the I got interviewed by Rolling Stone when the story is coming up. Casual mention jump just drop that in there. But yes, I got interviewed by a local college so. Did you know? Nobody's interviewed me recently. I do lots of other things, by the way, we all have fulltime dogs and this, this podcast is a passion project for all of us. We enjoy it so much. Billy not. So sure we loved it. He loves us female energy does he's loss of it, and he's lower. You do. This is your business by girl scrape. But anyway, we talked. I guess we're gonna have her bachelorette does. I'm not caught up on. Yeah. Anyways, but we're all stressed out. But I had a pin like a panic attack. I had a deep deep anxiety spiral yesterday. I cried for ten hours. It's thing, okay? It's the thing and you know, we're, we're going to have some therapy right now because we're gonna talk because we're doing something true crime. You know, passion projects help us. Yes. And also because no matter how bad everything has gotten for us. We are telling stories that things are always liberal happen to us. Right. All right. So let's get into today's story. Okay. So. Up until June eighteenth two thousand two alley Kemp was living the American dream, but one day alley went to work, and she never came home Elliot's working summer job at the Foxboro neighborhood, swimming pool in the suburbs of Kansas City, Missouri. And essentially, this is the safest place in the world. But not Frawley Kemp ally camp was a nineteen year old student Kansas state university where she was a member of pie. Beta PHI sorority. She was home from college on summer break and took a summer job at a community pool as a pool. Attendant. So in the early evening of June eighteenth, two thousand two allies. Parents waited for their daughter to get home from her supper job as a pool attendant at a nearby neighborhood apartment complex pool. As it got later. Elliot's parents started to become concerned because it was raining outside, and few people would likely be swimming. So they're really wondering what could be holding her up. So at five PM alleys brother Tyler who also worked at the pull. He goes down to the neighborhood to relieve alley and take over the shift, but when he gets there, there's no sign of her at all. But all of our stuff is still there and her brother knew that she was hoping to get out of work early that day to get ready ready for a date with her boyfriend. And that was the reason why her brother was there and was actually early. So he could really hurt to get there on time. So there was really no reason for her to have been there. And obviously when her stuff is still there. That's just really strange. So he looks everywhere around the pool and within the proximity of the area and even checks out this maintenance room, this kind of pull. Room area where they kept the polls pump system and some equipment and things. There's no sign of her. Her brother then alerts their father, Roger and says, I can't find alley and Roger comes down to the pool and looks for her daughter. And when Roger got there he starts looking for Allie. He goes into that maintenance, Mcgann with a pump room is. And at five thirty pm he makes a discovery that nightmares are made of. So what Roger saw was what appeared to be a leg protruding from under a tarp inside of this pump maintenance room? And to his horror, it was the leg of his daughter, Allie, and Allie was based down under the tarp bull cover, and she had been severely beaten, her face was battered, and bloodied or hair was matted with blood, and she was partially unclothed. She was wearing a sports brought it had been pushed up, and there was a t shirt, wrapped really tightly around her neck and Roger her father, touched his daughters back, and she was still warm. So he screamed for a son to comment on one in the paramedics were called immediately and arrived shortly after so at the signs of a struggle where she was found, and she was pronounced dead after being rushed to the Saint Joseph health center so news of what happened to Alli traveled fast. She had a large network of friends. She was in a sorority and here is one of allies already sisters to share her. I restoring. Hi, I am Karen triple I was thirty sisters with Alli. We were in the same pledge class at Kansas state university for pi beta PHI when we when you rush rush is very exhausting in tiring. And you, you have a week of just trying to figure out where you want to go for the next, you know, three or four years, and your college experience than you get thrown into this group of women that most likely have no idea who they are. And so it's a little scary. I don't know for me. It was frightening. I wasn't really thrilled about it, but I do remember interacting with Alli that first night that we were all kind of together. It was bid night, all hanging out at the house. And I remember just. Being comforted by her. I was really upset. And I helped me who knows why. It's not like it was a big deal but changes scary, and she was very comforting. And that's just suites. Just a sweet cumin be with nothing but love and warmth, and it exuded her and you just wanted to be in the same room with Alli. You wanted to be around there. You wanted to get to know her more, and it really was comforting for person who is a little bit scared to be around all these brand new people that you didn't know and you were all of a sudden supposed to be best friends with. So it was great to have connected with her definitely that first night. And then, you know the rest of the year is just getting snow each other going to chapter meetings, and we have these pledge classes are all learning about hi fi, and how it started in, we're not. And it's a Superfund exciting time, but also Allie, and I were in the same dorm. She was believe a floor above me. And we also had a class together as well. And so we would share notes and study, she would always I remember leave me sweet notes on my whiteboard outside of the dorm room and. Just say, hey propety, great day. We'll see a chapter tonight. You know something like that. It was just overall a great person to know. It wasn't very long after it was like a month or something after we had left college and had come home to my parents house that I walked in the door, and I remember them watching the news, and they just turned and looked at me, and my mom that I don't know, something to the fact of something happened to one of your sorority sisters and I was like what he's talking about. And then they just turned up the news. And I mean it was all over the place. It was they just describing what had happened will what they knew at that point. And that they didn't know what happened or who did it or that, it, it was kind of this. We just didn't know what was going on other than the fact that she was murdered. Wasn't a lot of information because I don't know that they really had any, so it was definitely frightening because you're in this area down the street basically and you have no clue if this is something that's going to happen again. You're terrified for your friends at that just happened. You're terrified for your other friends that live really close to hurry. Terrified for yourself in general, quite shocking and scary. I don't remember being in shock and. You know, I think that then, you know, you, you hear about a father of finding their daughter in that way. And you know that it's horrific and you know that, that's a horrible. Horrible thing, and you feel just saddened by but now thinking about it ever mom of two young kids and thinking about them being a little bit older and need finding them in that way. I honestly I couldn't imagine it, I would have just crumble per the floor. I, I cannot believe that he was even able to wake up the next day. He is. Unbelievable and the how he has handled himself, but it was terrifying to think about in that sense, especially now as a mom. So in conjunction with the paramedics arriving, of course, the police arrive also because everything is pointing homicide at this point. So as soon as they get there, they learn that at some point during the day, at least from laurel had come to visit her at the pool. And now you've asked her friend laurel to saying, you know, it's not gonna be that busy today, the weather's not supposed to be nice. Why don't you come visit? But when she arrived, there was no sign of alley. And she also noticed that there were very few people there because of the weather, but she did notice a maintenance worker there. But she left she didn't think anything in that weird of it, she thought maybe the pool was just closed. Maybe she could leave whatever. But she did tell the police about this, man, that she saw loitering around, and she described him as being in his thirties about five ten having short Brown. Hair? They're kind of balding a heavyset and was driving in one thousand nine hundred eighty nine hundred eighty two four truck that was either light blue or beige. She couldn't really remember. So, please take note of this. I mean is this someone could be someone involved? But at this point to it's like they hadn't ruled out family. She has a boyfriend hadn't done any of that. So the very preliminary and her friend Laura was probably the last person that she ever talked to. Presumably, I don't know when she told laurel the come by to visit, I mean, it could have been the day before or whatever your family was the last people. But I'm not I'm not sure I believe she made a call to her boyfriend, Phil. Yes, she did. But I don't know that he answered he didn't. So I think I'm not sure who the last person she talked to was so she did. She made a call to fill. Right. And he didn't answer he and answer and that it still haunts him. Oh my God, that is so horrible. I can't imagine. I mean everybody in Alley's life, you know, it's a small community and people are finding out and going to the scene. And attention is being drawn to the scene in his tiny neighborhood, and there's kind of chaos and the police are trying to take sort of inventory of who's at the scene in who needs to be questioned. So then there is this guy named Ted who've MRs as the police are there. And the scene is the a commotion, there's much Peter running everywhere. It's it's a. A big thing. Right. There's this guy named Ted Hoover, who arrived at the scene saying that he's all the police commotion, and he wanted to check out. What was going on as people on Bez and Ted ended up matching the description of the maintenance man, that laurel had described just very recently Ted Hoover. Explain the Hughes in the area because he owned a pool cleaning business, and he was hoping to take this new pool is one of his new clients. So, please wondered if Ted could be involved, and they asked him, if he'd be willing to give a DNA sample in order to clear him. He considered it, but then declined. And so they had to speak with his lawyer, and he'd be in touch with them soon which does happen. Like that's not that sketching. Yeah. No. Because people, especially I mean, if you're, like, random point, it was kind of like this guy came later were probably asking everybody here. Right. This is probably something that happened close to home. I mean they hadn't ruled out the family. It's probably like they're just asking everyone. Right. Want to wanna rule yourself out like we're going to ask you eventually, right? So then. Then he ends a vanishing and the police never hear from him. And they can find no record of a man with his name at all. So they end up obviously determining that Ted. Hoover must be an alias. But luckily, they did know this guy's lawyers name. So they asked him to disclose the location or true identity of Ted Hoover. But the lawyer refused to disclose any information about his client. And is that that's legal to do? I mean they blind. It wasn't like he was there was a there's not. Yeah. It's like they were just like he's a person of interest. Yeah. And it's like, oh well, if you didn't take his ID or, or do the deligence like is he not arrest? I'm not beholden to do that. And it's really strange to, as you will discover the fact, the whole lawyers name thing, which, which will get into in a second. So in the true crime world, we keep hearing about learning about all of these cases, that were kind of mishandled, during the investigation it comes up over and over and over again, this is why were so stoked for this new show, that's coming out featuring the one only our very own Billy Johnson. There are a lot of unanswered questions in this particular case. And that's the case of Rebecca. How right I'm sure if you are in the true crime world you've heard of this case before. But if you haven't, I'm gonna give you a little sparks notes version about what the cases about sir Rebecca's, a how was found dead hanging naked bound and gagged in the courtyard of her billionaire boyfriends Coronado mansion, in two thousand eleven just two days after his six year old son max suffered a fatal accident wall, under Rebecca's care and her cause of death was ruled as a suicide. She was tied up hanging, but there is a lot of really weird things in this case that doesn't really doesn't seem like suicide to me, like we're saying there are a lot of unanswered. Questions and we've got Paul Paul's. We've got Billie Johnson. And we've got wanting combs, these three true crime experts reexamining the evidence in Rebecca's a how case so tune in Saturdays at six pm eastern Pacific time on oxygen. The new network four true crime to watch death at the mansion Rebecca's how, and if you're just finding out about the series now and have missed the first couple of episodes, not to fear. You can watch it on demand and binge-watch anytime like we do. So make sure to tune in this Saturday at six five on oxygen and see the softer side of Billy Johnson. So out he had a boyfriend named Phil when this happened. So they wanted to question, Phil house who is a Kansas university senior who had dated alley four or five years before her attack at that pool he was completely distraught. Again, you know, he knew about the, the phone call. He wondered maybe there was, you know, she was calling him for help, and he, he wasn't there. There's nothing he could have done. He was immediately cleared of any involvement and almost immediately the family and anybody in the family was cleared, but they did have that DNA in the case. So it was going to be easy to clear individuals who are involved. So the autopsy on Allie reveal the extent of her injuries. She had signs at defensive wounds. Her left index finger was broken. She had black eyes cut lips her fingers were cut as well. She had bruises on our knees thighs and hips as well as a head injury and signs of manual. Strangulation and ligature. Ligature strangulation to and the autopsy indicated that Allie likely fought hard for her life for upwards of fifteen minutes. And when this happens. Somebody was strangling. Her probably started with manual strangulation got up on the Dottie done, the job thought that looked back and saw her moving probably try it again. Maybe hitter over the head again, and then got a ligature because it's a pool room. They've got a bunch of different ropes and things like that. So, you know, obviously, this is devastating for the family. Allie's dad Rogers said in a media interview for weeks ahead to fight just to get out of bed, but I had to keep going not just for alley. But for our family. In, in the sorority, we have usually mom, we can ask you get. And this particular for it was our first dad's weekend park, dad's, we've come up, and we had a golfing tournament that particular weekend. And he was just kind of a fun way to have the dads gets no, the throaty and gets know everybody else. And so we my father and I were actually paired up with Allie, and Roger, and it was just the most fun. I mean I am not a golfer. Allie was, I don't think alley with the Gulf. I don't remember but it was just fun. And we were goofing off. And when we laughed, I remember my dad saying what a loving fantastic family. They are because they were it was just it could have been an awkward situation. You're paired up with a father and a daughter. You don't know very well and, and they need it so comfortable, and we had equal last, and it was just definitely very memorable. Just a neat experience for sure. So. Allie, of course, after the autopsy and after they collect all the evidence that they need to collect a funeral was planned, and she was remembered by everyone who loved her, and it was many, many people. Just examined her funeral for one thing there, I've never to date into a bigger funeral in my life, there was I think something like fourteen hundred people there. So she clearly impacted a lot of people in her short life, right there and just the community. So clearly I wasn't the only one that thought how mazing she was she was a phenomenal human being, and you could see it, and how many people came to pay her Tribu. So at the service, people remembered alley for the wonderful person that she was she graduated from blue valley north in may of two thousand one she loved high school. She was chosen as a student ambassador, was on the student council played varsity. Soccer was a member of the national Honor Society where she was elected sergeant of arms, and was a co president of future business leaders of America, her senior year. She did ten times more than me, and I could even dream of she was elected to the sweetheart court her junior year and as much as she loved high school. She also loved college she'd completed her freshman year, and she did well, her first year and was enjoyed envited to join the honors program at K state, as well as the national society of collegiate scholars. She was not academic scholar in the school of human ecology and a leadership scholar. She finished her first year on the top ten percent of her class. And while it case state, she played intramural soccer and basketball, she loves soccer and poetry. She was voted the nicest girl in the eighth grade, and high school. She was so involved. They made an exception to the number of times. Your picture could show up in the yearbook, Mike God. Oh my God. Fucking sad. I think looking back, I definitely after this happened. We all around us, we're very aware of our environment. Now, we're like, is it going to happen to us what's going to happen now is he around still is he a neighbor does? He live next to me is he down the street? You just don't know if you kind of tense up and you just kind of are aware of everything. And, and. Skeptical skeptical of everybody that even act with for sure. And then now you know, I I try to think back it do I continue to do that. I don't wanna look at people, I don't know. I keep my head down. I don't wanna smile at them. I don't want them to see anything that I make I, I don't know. I just a little bit more wary of my environment and probably has a lot to do with, you know, alley, and what happened to her for sure. Just as a woman in general. And then now on top of it, one of your sisters murdered so definitely more aware. So what's alleys family and friends are mourning. The cops are investigating and putting theory together and the theory was around the assumption that her murder had been a crime of opportunity. It was raining that day. No one was using the pool. And that's when she was likely approached by an unknown man, the man, somehow, got her into this pool pump room. This maintenance room then beat her, and strangled her, and covered her with these tarps. So. The police alleys family use the media to appeal to the public for help and a sketch of this Ted. Hoover person was made in released and was displayed across news stations everywhere. And they also stated that the killer may have had wounds from Allie defending yourself based on just a lot of the autopsy findings. And on August twelve two thousand two there was a candlelight vigil held for Allie in hundreds of her. Loved ones came out to mourn, the loss of her and it's not surprising given how many people went to her funeral allie's dad Roger, however, vowed to bring his daughters Clarita Justice. They weren't just going, he wasn't going to accept oh, the attorney won't give you his real name. Right. You know, I can't imagine the fury. Oh my God of that from his perspective. So he was, heartbroken and e in, in his sorrow came up with this novel idea, and he was armed with this police composite sketch of this white male suspect, and he went to Lamar advertising, which is a local firm who kind of control the billboards in the area, and he wanted to put up wanted billboards in town. And when the owner of the advertising company heard Roger story, he was moved, and he decided to just donate the use of these billboards towards Rogers caused in trying to bring his daughters. Murderer to Justice and wants the will up. It was estimated that fifty thousand individuals a day would would see these billboards and good on Libor advertising for. No, that's so great that the guy is, as somebody that spends a lot of money on advertising to try and find criminals using using social media, probably given Mark Zuckerberg. It's probably up to thirty thousand dollars. Now, I would love Mark Zuckerberg to say, hey, we want to. Here's a million dollars. That'd be really good. I could solve a lot of murders that way. But, you know, this is this is crazy. They should just give that resource. It would be wonderful. And I, I have asked really. Yeah. Too. Big fat now to well, you know. Exactly. I'm sure there's no real customer service at Facebook, actually, you know, it's very hard to get anybody on the phone to face. But I'm sure Uber. If you're like me, having to deal with anything involving healthcare, and especially trying to get my hands on some birth control is really, really difficult. So you're going to want to hear a sponsor, that's gonna save you a lot of time and money in that realm. They're called simple health, and as the name suggests to here to make your healthcare, simple. And that's starting with birth control, birth controls getting a much-needed twenty-first-century upgrade. And with simple health, you can get your birth control, prescribed online and delivered to your door for free. How easy is that whether you're already on birth control looking to get back on or want to try it. For the first time, simple, health will take care of you. And the best thing is they offer Affordable Care, regardless of insurance. They do accept insurance. But luckily, birth control is free with mos- insurance plans to pay absolutely nothing to use the service every single month. The prescriptions usually twenty dollars for our listeners can try simple health for free. Just go to simple dot com slash degree or enter code degree at checkout, and I want to mention this isn't a replacement for routine evaluations by your primary health physician or gynecologist. You should still get checkup says. Needed, but it is the most convenient, and comfortable way to get your birth control. Again, try a better way to get birth control with simple health by going to simple, help dot com slash degree, or enter code degree at checkout. Give it a try and thank me later. Alexei isn't the only one with breaking news, make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news minute. Attention true. Crime fans checkout, twenty two hours in American nightmare on podcast. One is a case that nightmares are made of a family has held hostage for nearly twenty four hours and murdered inside their own home. WTO p examines the complicated trail of evidence that police say lead defining their killer, and why they say he committed such a brutal crime. Download new episodes of twenty two hours in American nightmare on apple podcasts and podcast. One. So America's most wanted also cover the case, and Roger arranged for advertisements and USA today. So the case was everywhere, and was this being displayed very prominently in the public eye. And I'm February eleventh, two thousand and three the police get there break that they have been waiting for someone called in a tip, and gave the police the name of a twenty seven year old named James straighter from Utah. He was picked up by police after getting gas and driving off without paying for it, which I didn't even realize that you could do, I think back in the day, use hood that far back in the two you can just. Yeah. I think you'd be like fill it up, especially a full-service maybe at a full. You know, it's like put twenty in there and just drive away. Right. Dodd moved here. This is two thousand three but yet still. So when the police in Utah pulled him over they learned that this guy had an outstanding warrant in Missouri and Kansas, and they weren't just for petty crimes. He was facing allegations of rape and aggravated kidnapping the attack involved, a woman who said that she was his former girlfriend, and she said that he came to her home, raped, her at knifepoint and then forced her to ride with him to an area like near those artists that are so terrifying. The it's like the wilderness like, oh, you're for sure. Gonna kill me. Oh, you better. Thought that he was going to become. Yeah. But it doesn't stop there. So he was also charged with raping a fourteen year old girl on that very same day, God and he was looked at as a suspect for another kidnapping that happened a week earlier now the le- would police department, and they were the, the department that we're handling Elliot's case they took an interest in straighter after getting that tip about him on their hotline, and he did look like the composite of the man seen laudering around the pool pump room on the day that she was killed. They were able to pinpoint that straighter was actually in the Casey area during the middle part of June of two thousand and two, which coincided with allie's murder. Kansas City and the Kansas bureau investigations. So scheduled strata for an extradition hearing. The police brought him in for questioning alleys family members were on the edge of their seats. This could be their guy. Right. So you can imagine. Everybody's super excited, we could be like, you know, their daughter's killer of this, this perpetrator of this heinous crime is walking free. So imagine the crushing disappointment. They must have felt when they learned that, despite all of these potential connections. The DNA was not a match the D N A found at the crime scene. So this was not their guy. I think through the summer keep hearing about it. You wanna make sure that this guy is caught. They're not catching you feel a little upset you feel angry. You're like what's happening, you get to school. And then we have to go through rush on the other side of rush, this time, we're part of thirty but we don't have one of our girls with us. And that's upsetting. That's depressing. You know, we tried to make sure she was a part of rush. And we did a lot of just little things for her to be there with us because we knew how excited to us to see that fight of rush, I is so long ago that it's hard to think about what I did to help with that process. But I'm not so sure that I did a whole lot. You know, didn't really have a lot of the resources when you're twenty to figure it out. Her dad like I said, he, he got up and champion for her daughter and made sure that nobody stopped looking for her killer, made sure that everybody knew how amazing she was and how we need to find a human that took two. Daughter promise, and it was just incredible to see someone be so strong and such a horrible situation, and it was definitely Roger that kept that going and kept her memory alive for sure. So soon after this, the police received two different tips, one of them was able to reveal the real name of teddy Hoover, which was Benjamin Appleby and the other tipster was able to reveal where he lived, which we're which was in Connecticut. So they pull over Benjamin Applebee's record and learned that there are a slew of charges against him. And he has a checkered past. It's pretty pretty bad. He's been charged with risk of injury. Public indecency masturbation in public assault, armed robbery burglary sexual misconduct. The list goes on and on and on. He looked like he could be involved. But everyone was cautious about the disappointment of their previous person of, of interest, because it's kind of seem they're having a high optimistic and you talk about a lot the lease on, on Golden State killer on unmasking, killer, Paul holes. Like I wasn't looking at it like I've been excited a million they just got a. That is probably wrong. Yes. Because he's like this is my guy visits my guy, and then even with the DNA too, and that was different because he had he had gone on a wild goose chase with the DNA stuff as many wild goose chases that he went on with the homework and all that other stuff. He had just gone on one and, and hit this. Yeah. The one in Oregon. Yeah. And then when he was got this when it was like, okay, fine. And then in you're like disheartened you're like I can't get my hopes up. Yeah. And so once police received this tip about Appleby. They learned that there was an outstanding warrant out for his arrest from nineteen Ninety-seven. And this is always a good thing because, like, okay, you do a search for this guy, and they're able to be like, oh, wow. There's a warrant for him. So now they can go and pick him up just great state police. Pick him up. And they learned that he was living with a girlfriend under the name of you guessed it teddy Hoover. The second and teddy who were the second actually was a friend of his who had died way. Oh, yes. So it's kind of some second to that's weird. He likes adopted his dead, friends native so spiritual creepy. So he was arrested by the Connecticut. Authorities on November eighth two thousand four and when he was initially taken into custody in Connecticut. He said he wanted a lawyer, he was then extradited to Kansas City and once he arrived in Kansas, and he spoke to his mother and his mother is like, you know what they're just going to give you a crappy lawyer, just they said that they didn't have enough money for this go ahead and cooperate and confess. And this murderer is such this mama's boy, that he spills it, and he's held on a million dollars bail. All right. And this is something just I want to talk about. And which I was talking to Karen about alleys Rory sister is that it's incredible that a guy like this could have such anger towards women, where he sees a woman, and she's, you know, in kills her in an opportunistic. Fashion, and then it has such a good relationship with his mother and living with fiancee's, who doesn't have any idea at it just scares double life. It's stairs. It's even more terrifying than somebody. That is so but it's also the fact that maybe, you know, the mother was constantly telling him what to do, and he's always gonna follow that. Maybe it's just grim. Scares me that like you're, you can be nice to some women, but kill other ones habit. That makes sense from Billy though, healers turn into these, they have domineering mothers anything's possible. My mom called me and told me they got him in. Was it November of four? And like I said, I was down here in Florida. Giving an internship. It was a relief is anything, you know, this kind of, like, okay, you know, and I was out of Kansas. So clearly I wasn't as well. I mean I don't know. I mean serial killers go around the whole world, so you never know. But I it was just a big relief that they found this guy and that somebody was gonna, you know. Be tr- tried for this horrible, murder and Allie was going to get, you know, some kind of. I just it was is it was great news. But also brought up for memories. If you know what I mean, like it, it was exciting, but also makes your stomach turn a little bit. He starts thinking about it again. All right. So Benjamin Appleby what do we know about this IKEA path Benjamin Appleby attended tongue? Anoxia high school in Kansas during part of his sophomore year engineers in the high school into we can only find select information about him and he's not that important. So we didn't spend a ton of time on this because Kim. Yeah. So I'm just what was easy to find what I'll include. I don't know where he was before that in his nineteen Ninety-one yearbook Albie sophomore year. He's pictured in a group in group photos of the wrestling team. And also, the industrial arts club, and I think it's interesting to mention that he was a stock. You dude, he was stocky and strong in a wrestler. Yeah. And probably very, very difficult to fight off, hypothetically. So Appleby's father lived in Texas, and t to as in Benjamin. Appleby was living there during the time of alleys murder. And I was I found this when we were doing research, and I found it on a sort of a pro boards information trading Fred and there was a girl who posted about it. And I just want to read what she said. So she said, I have a story of my own about this. He sat behind me in history class in nineteen Ninety-two. He kept teasing me touching my hair, my neck, my back making suggestive comments, etc. I finally got so fed up that I turned around and yelled, if you don't stop touching me. I'm going to haul off in clock. You. So, like this girl was so creeped out, she had just said it was his whole, and he'd just he'd been a inappropriate. We women here violating. And you know. Eric arrogant about what he's allowed to do felt entitled to women. Yes, how I interpret this. So the Kansas City star outlined, his record and included a therapist description of Appleby in a nineteen Ninety-six report. And is she probably was very friendly with him. She probably smiled at him and said Hello and trying to be helpful, and then he just decides to take advantage of the size is just awful. It's on my have, I honestly have no clue who would be able to not. I mean, sure you hear about people. Getting rapes or head or whatever it is. But the severity of the way that he beat her. Is unbelievable. I don't I can't even fathom that kind of anger coming out of somebody and it just the disgusting human being to want to, to beat. Somebody unrecognizable strangle them leave them for dead under a tarp that. I that it doesn't even make sense in my brain is it's, it's horrific. And it doesn't make sense as the women that are with them. Don't see anything like do you not see any behaviors or you're not paying attention to these behaviors. I mean I don't know if they're just going love that they don't be the, the harshness behind there is. I don't know. I don't understand it there. I mean he's clearly psychotic and he's clearly got something wrong with it. So you would think that his, they would know that as a parent, you can only do so much. You can only create an environment and raise them up and teach him as much as you can something was wrong at him. And there's nothing that she could have done to change him. He's just a psychopath and it wasn't her fault at all. And God bless her for telling telling him to confess and turn himself in. He's. I. Yeah. I mean, I never even thought of it from the now because I'm involved with two boys and never even thought about it from that, and respective of his mommy. I honestly couldn't imagine being the mother of that. I don't even want to call me him human being on us. Have you ever thought about the fact that we're you choose to live directly impacts the you that you become? I know when I was living in an apartment or house that I didn't truly love or I didn't feel comfortable in it affected my wellbeing. 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So the report obtained by the Kansas City star warned that Benjamin Appleby than twenty one years old was in a quote, high risk position to re-offend and could pose sexual threats, although most of his criminal history consisted of sexual misconduct involving public masturbation, which is disturbing and terrifying JD. This guy is going to it's going to going gonna actually I sure there's no, ooh, public masturbation, go home, like sue. Oh, no one wants to see that disgusting shut nobody wants to see it. He ended up pleading guilty to two nineteen Ninety-two raw nineteen Ninety-two robberies as well. The cases involve the hold ups of a Donut shop, and a convenience store in independence when he was seventeen years old. And one of the robberies a gunman who is apparently, but it'd been Appleby pointed, a shotgun at the head of a clerk and pulled the trigger. Thankfully, the gun didn't fire and years later, he told his therapist that the gun had never been loaded. I'm going, but he's like, we wasn't loaded but imagine the life ruining moment of PTSD back and better. Do. I fucking hit, or so the therapists, nineteen Ninety-six report depicted Benjamin Appleby as a young man who quote has a history of inappropriate alcohol. Use anger problems frequently goal in entanglements and appears to be emotionally immature. But it also that he was intelligent and appeared fairly motivated for treatment to make positive appropriate changes in his life and his behavior, this all seems kind of very current Christie. They're, they're like, oh, I don't want to is going to be serial killer. But I have hope I guess, so the therapist, also depicted him as quote pleasant communique communicative and cooperative during their seventy five minute session. He also held up a convenience store, right across the street from a police department. So while in custody. After he's extra extradited back to Kansas. He like we all mentioned confessed, an applebees Holywood detectives that he had gone to the pool that day to check it out as a potential client who knows if that's true. But that's what he was going with even back in the beginning when he was teddy Hoover, when he showed up at the scene. He said he found alley Kemp attractive and tried to hit on her, and then lost it when she rebuffed his advance and swung at him. So. You guys have been hit on before. Yeah. Never has anybody happens at bars happens on the street. Yeah. Has anybody ever hit on you in a room where there was nobody else, not that I cannot mistreat? No, but he's me humans in a situation like this, where you're like there's a door like you're stuck in a an enclosed place with somebody. That is inappropriately heading on you where you would be fearful if you said, no hasn't happened to me that I can think of not, not like. A an elevator. In the laundry, room and a party or something. Around. By herself. I mean can you just think there was member? There was it was raining. There was nobody else at the pool. Yeah. This guy follows her into this room. He's, he's waiting for her to do that. He says that he hits on our. And then she. You know she says now. Go now she probably started like being nice. Yeah. Definitely. And like Narain said Karen said, she would have probably smiled and mid nice and tried to. That it's that's just so annoying that you have to that women feel like they have to act, we do they'll hurt us. I know but that's like this is this is a prime insane. But like it's I do that, too. Like people do something awkward on the street. I'm like, no. Thank you, in the when they persist sound like you're making me uncomfortable. And like you start nice because you don't want somebody to react to don't you Hugh stories like this. Right. But you know, he she rebuffs him. He blocks the door and then. And then what does she do? Does he hit her first? Yeah. And just now he just lost it. And, and, and then to start swinging enter. Yeah. Handle rejection. This is this all just because some piece of shit can't handle was hurt their rejection. Like, yeah. So he says, I killed her. I strangled her. I guess I don't know what I used there was something laying there. And again, what we learned from the autopsy report is that he originally tried to strangle, her manually. He you know you don't realize how long it takes to actually strangle somebody she was still alive, and then he kept doing it again. And again, so you can just think about that. And, and how brutal that is any also said that he had gone into a first aid kit to get some sort of Oatman out to us as a lubricant, too late to rape her. But then he couldn't perform, so he just covers her body up with this tarp, and then he leaves. Disgusting garbage human piece of shit, so the police have Fetig yeah, the police have the confession. They have the people saying, you know, the idea of him from from the billboard which led him to that person. But DNA they did have DNA there and be the family determined. And yes, the DNA was a match. I'll be honest. I don't know if I ever really processed it if I you know, I'm thinking about it now as a twenty year old this happening to somebody that, you know, and, you know, it was I not even I wasn't even the closest to Allie by anything. So think about for women and men that went to high school with her. I went to college, and the girls over my sorority. A lot of them went through all of elementary middle school junior, high with Alli they've known her their whole life and just to try to move on from that. I can't even imagine. And for me, I, I don't know that I've processed it a lot to be honest when allie's boyfriend Phil learned of the arrest of getting a call from his mom. He later said, in an interview, quote, it's a bittersweet day. It's a great day because this guy is behind bars now. But that doesn't bring Allie back and we still have to deal with that we've been waiting for this day for two years. He said that there had been times where he was worried a suspect wouldn't be arrested but he commended the diligence of the lay lead. Police. Department in Roger Kemp for keeping his and everyone else's spirits up. So on November ninth two thousand four Appleby was indicted on first-degree murder charges in Johnson county. If convicted he could face the death penalty now as the trial approached even though he would they had the confession even though they had the DNA Applebee's attorneys, just start throwing a bunch of stuff up against the wall, and they mounted defense about how he had a bunch of issues, he came from a household where was abandoned and abused and things from his childhood were coming up in awful ways. And his lawyer claimed that he had, what is called, I e d or intermittent explosive disorder which would cause them to go into these crazy fits of rage, and he would actually disassociate himself from that behavior. So he's saying that this is what happened the prosecutors would fight against that and say, you know what he clearly tried that sort of it was. A half ass attempt that he tried to hide the body. But the tarp over it way. There is a lot of deliberate actions that now deliberate, malice actions, that proved he planned. It's not like he did this and it's like, oh my God. Call the cops I overreacted. Yes. So at Applebee's lawyers, actually didn't even call any witnesses. The jury watched a video tape of Applebee's chilling confession, and they deliberated in less than three hours before finding thirty one year old Benjamin Appleby guilty of capital murder, and attempted rape. Every car comes with its share of stories that ding in your bumper. 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So as for his sentence during the sentencing hearing, Cathy, Kemp, who is always mother made an impact statement that concluded with this Christmas Eve as every Christmas Eve since she died when other people were in church. I was putting candles on her grave, and I don't go to church anymore. It's terrible. She said, nothing can be done to make this, right. I'm serving a life sentence in. I'm never going to be paroled. Appleby then requested to be excused from the hearing his request was granted by the judge as Kansas law. Requires a judge's approval for a criminal defendant to be absent at such hearings the absence of Appleby angered Roger cap Alley's father. He said he didn't just murder her. He didn't kill her. He drug, the life out of her body because she didn't want to die. And he did it. And he doesn't have the courage to sit here today in here me tell it God, who that is me hoeing. Oh my God. I can't the pain this family went through. So Appleby received a hard fifty your sentence, which is five decades without the possibility of parole for the murder conviction and initially received two hundred twenty eight months for the attempted rape to be served consecutively. However, I mean, I think this is a little boring, but I'll just the nuts and bolts of it is that ended up being overturned, the, the actual extra two hundred twenty eight months because this legal technicality, because they said it was double jeopardy to add two hundred twenty eight months when they use the rape to convict him on first degree murder. So that's very boring legal technicalities. Should he get life without parole? Sure fifty years. He'll be eighty one when he gets out, but getting into the legal back and forth. I'm not gonna waste your time with that ripe but Roger Kemp can finally stand down. I mean, her his daughter's murderer has been brought to Justice if there is such a thing when a life is stolen. I'm not sure but in the days and your since alleys murder, he started teaching basic self-defense classes, two girls from all walks of life through foundation. He established in his daughter's name. Take defense dot org, and he never stops thinking about Louis, and he says. As we thought she was just going to make a difference in this world Ali Kemp did make a difference. Just not in the way, I'd imagine. Well, when it first started, like, when we first the first year that Roger can't started that the education foundation, we did a defence class, so we got to basically arm ourselves, which, I think what a great legacy can leave for Allie to be able to every year educate women on how to defend themselves, if something like this happens. And so definitely a great memory in her memory to keep for for for a long time. And now I believe pi pi, PHI, does a they used to call the alley cat bandstand, and they would have a big like concert and party. And now I believe they still do that. And I and I wanna say they continue to do the defense class every single year but also with all the sororities on campus to make sure that everybody's getting the same education when it comes to defending themselves. So for sure. I think if I just really wants to keep her memory alive, especially at can stay honestly, if you knew where it's the worst there, it couldn't have happened to that, like she was the best human. They're very few people. I come across even now know thirty seven I haven't come across a lot of people with that good of a heart. My husband, I would say one of them, but she was definitely and other that you're just like that's a good human being. She definitely left a Mark. So she's her Sarah, just it was a joy to know her for the short period of time that I got you. And since his daughter's death Roger campus contributed, and helping solve crimes all across the country, inspired by his idea soon other police departments around the country adopted similar billboards, and to Dayton, Kansas alone. They've already helped with authorities capture more than thirty fugitives, which is crazy. Thing is those billboards. Everybody should be using them and you see somebody billboards, you should use billboards. You see, so many billboards up for movies that are clearly way past out of. They're out of the theaters. There's no reason for those billboards to be up and it's. I just didn't well yeah we don't need that billboard for the Pokemon movie, but somebody listen, people make money. I understand that. But what they should do is, you know what if there's a they obviously didn't sell the bell billboard leaving up this other stuff what they should do is just donate it. I know it's I mean, obviously works, it's such like a and, and the, the, the people that did see the billboards the they split it up in a forty ten split because the person who actually knew the name and knew where they were that was more important of the information, but they didn't take the forty thousand dollars. They actually donated it to alleys family and allies. Family created a scholarship fund in her name, which is such a wonderful thing to do, which is great. But I never want, you know what you'd never want to sort of shame people. It's great that he did that. But, but I never want to sort of put an emphasis on that. That's what people should do because I want people to call in tips and get the reward on it. If you want it. But Roger Kemp did say to the media when he heard this he, he was quote unquote, floored. Instead, you know, it just proves how amazing people in Kansas City are. And, you know there were a couple examples of this in his story in, in the advertisers, having this altruistic compassion to donate billboards, which are thousands of dollars this person. I mean, how kind that they experienced to experiences like that guy because he really wants to be people so greedy. So it's really beautiful. Yeah, that's really wonderful. And despite all the pain that he'll always carry for Roger who, who received a presidential citizens medal for his work from President Obama, there soulless, and knowing that he's helping police Taylor's off the streets like the so it's great. The he turns such a horror flick. Saurian is something I told you to read the Victor, Frankl book, a longtime man's man's search for meaning in it's all about finding meaning in your suffering, and healing. It can be an it's an amazing example of that. So how do you think Karen remembers alley? And you know, I asked her kind of what kind of Mark she left on her. And if this experience, kind of change turn how. She's definitely connected with all the other my sorority sisters and my pledge class. So whenever I see them on Facebook, Instagram. I definitely her her face Thompson, my head, and, you know, I just I try to remember her in a positive way and just try to. It's, it's sad to me, because I know that she would have been just a just the best team that she would have had the most incredible life. She would have been the best mom if she wanted to do that, she would have been just a gem in any society that she chose to put herself in it. I'm sad about it, but thankful for the time that short time that I got to know her. And it's, it's usually those moments when I'm you know, scrolling through interim and seeing everybody's life that we're all in our thirty and we've all moved on. And that's usually when she kinda pumped in, in occasionally, if I listened to a podcast, it's about a crime or burder, she'll pop in my head, and it's, it's kind of weird to think like, oh, yeah, I, I guess I do have a connection, and in that way to some horrible crime, and it's not something you wanna have. So it I don't know. It's just it's a strange feeling it is a strange feeling. And I totally understand what Karen saying being connected to anything like this is surreal, and even more surreal for the family members of these people who are affected in killed by psychopaths. It's just you, you want the world for your children when something like this happens. I. See how allie's dad was just not going to accept anything but turning this into something sort of beautiful in the name of his daughter. And he was really, really able to do that in a beautiful way to turn a tragedy into something that and not just sort of one thing in the scholarship and doing the take defence, he design things, you know, you really got when you see it reminds me of Tim Miller who runs Texas equa surge whose daughter was killed. And he, he turned that around and now helps people who go missing and he's helped find a lot of people. But, you know, when he told me when I was out with him once on a search he was just like you know, whenever I want to give up look at her picture, and I say, all right. I'll keep going. So time. It's so touching 'em. Karen, thank you so much for reaching out with this case, we are so happy to cover it. I mean the Kemp family, clearly just like fourteen hundred people at Ollie's funeral Roger camp going above and beyond. And in doing this I mean I mean she was obviously adored and cared for so much as the peace Allie. Young Cousteau Saad. Yeah, thank you, Karen for reaching out to us. And if anybody out there listening in the abyss is connected to a murder, or other stranger than fiction story. Please reach out to us we'd love to tell your story. Nothing is too small. So even if you think your story is insignificant in nobody's ever covered it, we would like to cover it. You can Diaz on Instagram. I greet odd Alexis linkletter at Billy Johnson at Jack panic or write us. Hello at the first group, podcast dot com. And we read. Every single little thing that a center way. Yes. And until next week you superman too happy superman. It was also happy like make sure your egg basket is full day, tumbling day.

Allie Benjamin Appleby Roger Kansas City murder high school Billy Roger Kemp Kansas Rogers Kansas state university dean Cain Billy Johnson Ted Hoover alley apple George Reeves Phil house Alli
Justice: The Sheila Bellush Story, Part II

The First Degree

1:04:59 hr | 4 months ago

Justice: The Sheila Bellush Story, Part II

"Thank you for listening to this. Podcast one production now available on spotify apple podcasts. Podcast one dot com in anywhere else. You podcasts do you own or rent your home sure you do and I bet it can be hard work you know. It's easy bundling policies with GEICO. Geico makes it easy to bundle your homeowner's or renter's insurance along with your auto policy as a good thing too because you already have so much to do around your home go to Geico Dot Com. Get a quote and see how much you could save. It's GEICO easy. Visit GEICO DOT com. Today that's GEIKO DOT COM okay. So today's episode is part two of the Sheila Relish case. So if you're joining us for the first time or you missed last week's episode. You need to stop right now. Don't go any further. Go back and listen to last week's part one degree degree post. I the first degree supposed to have it in movies. Not Real Life Really Tall. Watch the media. I mean you know. People are murdered every day. But once you got somebody heard they got quite turn it around the house if they could picture of. Rescue. It's in the heart to the first degree that true crime podcast that you might end up on my name. Is Jeffrey Vinik? I'm sitting very far away from Alexis linklater and even farther away from Billy Johnson. This is week two from social distance. Podcasting for the first degree. It's been two weeks since we've seen each other since we've held each other as we've drank bullshit since I've made fun of Billy's socks what we even do. Not even wearing socks are all my gosh. No rule change no rules at all bare feet right now. I have bare feet right now. In my socks I do too. But WE'RE GONNA mind mine are good. What are what is that? Are Those they're bunnies having sex with each other? Oh from here's upside down so we're on zoom right now so we can see each other while we're talking but in Alexis just showed me her socks but they look like they looked like grumpy. Cat Faces. So I'm you know I don't think so Alexis. Isn't that basic that I need to go back to the fact that billy is going wrote without socks okay? Well what day is it billy? Well obviously it's April fool's day and but it's also two other ones that I think are even more significant. It's national jump in Muddy Puddles Day. He can't which I think is wonderful as well and it's also you can go out a little bit as long as you're not near anybody. It's also sour dough bread day and I don't know if you are like me but a lot of the people I've been following on instagram doing a lot of baking and I'm seeing a lot of people baking bread Russia's sourdough bread is the best type of Brad number one hand down so break it out. There's actually a lot days today. I was surprised that people even went to submit their day. Considering April fools is such a big day maybe they will. Maybe they're all false days though. Maybe there's also national funday and we all know that nobody's having fun today. I haven't had fun in a really long time. This is fun. This is where most fun shots from a little bit normal but other than that absolutely no fun the most fun part of my days when I go on a walk and pretty sodden itself so the only place going to walk is the cemetery where where he has a plot were using to be married so then I just go I just literally walk around and think about death and then I come back and I work on shows about death and then I'm like wow slot of death you plot location can Alexa already. Have THE PLOT location. But it's a secret I do not have it. I I will say it's right near Vampires plot where she is actually buried. Yeah what's abors? Are Fred Arman. Oh perfect well. That's enough of that. So let's turn on the lights and turn up your anxiety. This could be you on last week's episode. We took you through the labyrinth suspects connected to the nineteen ninety-seven murder-for-hire conspiracy of Sheila Belaiche. She'll abolish have been discovered brutally murdered in her home. Her thirteen year old daughter. Stevie had been the one to find her and she lets four quadruplet. Babies were covered in her blood at the scene after being left alone with their mother's body for more than six hours so today on the first degree in a twist of fate. We also have one of the police officers who worked Sheila relishes case and he was one of the first responders on the scene. Bill Culture currently works at the Venice. Police Department but at the time was a corporal in the Forensic Services Unit for the Sarasota County Sheriff's office bills daughter. Heather is actually a first degree listener in is in our facebook group and she reached out to us after hearing part one of the story and introduced us to bell so that further. Do here as well. That's just the first services you surprised a lot with We got calls US There was a homicide so please pretty much. I gather my kitchen where we go. We Response to else for l. The Crunchiness office pretty much. Half of the House and It's a fake even more complicated. I have four. Quadrant was running around the house when we When we got there wow They were corralled by the deputy and got out of the scene. It was one of the more realistic ones that I saw Only have and heard inside there. House has been for navy stuff on her love standing around or kind of scary because they're all out of the kitchen. The primary cleansing started working the wanders which has been way to the UH kitchen area. That's where She was I I consider there's a gun and shot her It went to John. Mouth and the projectile went into the back Which is like a living former living will call it that. Get a mirror about stack just guessing. She kind of turned and Ran George Kitchen. Which was you know an extra over? And that's cutters instead of Shooting her again. Why Motorola knows while she's bleeding out. the Walsall. That was talking about kitchen all issues try. You could see her Chance of winning out knowing that she's probably GonNa die. She's trying to crawl up the walls and get to the fall. That's where she actually. I is the reason we're talking about this case. There's a reason why we made it a to partner is because it gripped the nation. Sheila's case inspired author Anne Rule when most famous true crime authors to write a book called every breath. You take about the case case was featured on. Am as American justice on forty eight hours and FBI. Colonel Proceed Justin Review which begs at initial question. What exactly about this case was it. The jury people in a lot of media attention. The pictures that really you know. Let's try home. People who watch the media I mean? People are murdered every day. You got somebody who murdered they got quadruplets running around the house it was passed they can get outside on the rescue here so that that's sort of the heart. Well the pictures that showed up the media and this is where the NFL comes yet. I have four runner. I wanted a life jacket She was very very good mom and if she had to change a baby and she couldn't keep an eye on the rest of them even though she ever sliding doors shut sort of serving all she was like checking and chasing sheep. Some would say we're telling the pool at least you know Chicago. They drown Answer questions that I had to get the life jackets and the kolding because they they have trace evidence hanging over that for us and Most of most of my Detected friends and that will never let me down but I had also quads and the rescue vehicle of ambulance and We just going off of that what they have most more diverse and I gave. Oh that were hanging up. Problem was them up announced that they were sculpture costumes for Halloween themselves. But it served its purpose. They're hanging out so I know it wasn't involved in the scene graph extradite and they were redivert their customs get before this site. That bill came on at the ballot. Show-me is one. No one would ever forget. It's a little bit harder to keep track of is all of the players in this very layered case so as a refresher evidence at the scene led police to track down. Sheila's killer a twenty one year old named Joey del Toro and while Joey del Toro had been the person to physically perpetrate the murderer against Sheila. The police Sheila's family suspected that the man behind the killing was Sheila's ex husband Alan blackthorn and while they suspected the ex husband they struggled to find a connection between the wealthy retired businessman and the twenty one year. Old Del Toro. The police didn't give up and eventually the players in this case started to fall like dominoes. All making confessions along the way and the truth came out. Sheila's ex husband Allen had recruited his Gulf. Buddy Danny Rocha who then recruited golf caddies. Sammy Gonzalez who then recruited his cousin. Joy Del Toro to kill Sheila in the chain of events. That's like a deadly game of telephone. In the end everything led back to Alan blackthorn. Seems simple enough then right wrong? Holding blackthorn accountable would be more difficult than anyone could have anticipated last week. We took you through the case through the perspective of law enforcement as they were piecing things together and this week. We're going to walk you through. The culmination of what was uncovered during the investigation included the history of Sheila and Alan Black Thorns relationship. The stalking and Obsession Alan Black. Thorn had with his ex wife and the lengths that Allen went in pursuit of revenge. And there's a glaring question to address. Why exactly did Alan Blackthorn want Sheila dead? After all Allen had remarried a woman named Maureen in they had two sons Sheila remarried Jamie and hotter quadruplets. It seemed like everyone had moved on with their lives. But of course things are never as they so in order to understand what was supposed to be a love. Story that culminated in a brutal murder for hire plot spanning multiple states in conspirators. Were going to go back to. The beginning was in nineteen eighty to nineteen year old. Sheila Lee Walsh married twice divorced. Twenty-seven-year-old Alan Blackthorn in a wedding in Salem Oregon. It turns out that Sheila knew little about her new husband's past in some information about Alan is still elusive to this day. Alan claims to have been physically abused by his mother when he was growing up. He said that she burnt him and beat him but other family members dispute this information. His uncle Tom Oliver Raise Allen for two years at one point people magazine in an interview quote. It never happened. He also told people held a gun to him to get him to do his homework. It was ally he fantasizes all these things and people believe him. And Sheila Allen's marriage started this hour not long after they tied the knot and there are a number of reasons for this in Nineteen ninety-three have been charged by Oregon law enforcement with leaving the scene of a fatal accident after his car had collided with a motorcyclist killing him. He went to for this but he got a lucky break when the jury deadlocked and the state decided to drop the charges to not have to try him again. Then partnered with Sheila's parents investing in an audio equipment store but that business failed and was forced into bankruptcy. So you can imagine how this would put a strain on a family relationship in a marriage and it's at that point. Alan Move Sheila and their kids to Hawaii. Probably to isolate her. As the things between the families continued to worsen and after one year in Hawaii he moved the family to San Antonio where he decided to reinvent himself. You see this point that Allen Blackthorn actually becomes Alan Blackthorn Allen's birth name was actually Alan Van Hout but he decided that he wanted to change it upon his move to Texas and he said the change and the name was a nod to his favorite character from the miniseries Shogun and it may have been true but he wasn't changing his name just for warm and fuzzy feelings into SALGA. People generally don't just up and change their names for no reason. The truth was that Allen was attempting to evade hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt and a new name and a new city would make him difficult to find in right around the same time as Allen's name change and the families moved to San Antonio Alan escalated in his abuse of Sheila he had always been controlling and verbally abusive but now visible signs of this abuse manifested in. The form of bruise is Oliver. Sheila's face and body on at least one occasion. She checked into a shelter for battered women and in nineteen eighty seven. San Antonio Police arrested Allen for assaulting Sheila and he pleaded no contest to those charges and while this abuse continued Soda Allen's shady business dealings the following year he was sentenced to probation relating to bad checks amounting to twenty seven grand and it was around this time that she left filed for divorce from Allen which became finalize the following year in nineteen eighty eight but while Sheila was free on paper she was far from free of Alan himself. Their fight for custody of their two girls. Stephen Darrell turned into one of those really ugly battles where each was accusing the other of abuse and neglect in an effort. To win favor with the courts niece courtroom battles would span nearly ten years. They're divorced files included custody child support demands accusations and counter-accusations detailing instances of adultery and like we said Abuse Allen referred to Sheila as a cheater and a gold digger and Sheila alleged that on when sexually abused their daughter Stevie which that's a very serious accusation employed male and female sex workers in extramarital affairs and made her wear bondage gear in the bedroom. She has claimed that he chased her around their house over piddly shocking her with a cattle prod as she cried and begged him to. Stop Wall. The legal battles between Sheila and Allen remained vicious Sheila's locked started to shift when she boarded a flight to San Francisco. Nineteen Ninety two. It was on this surface flight that Sheila sat next to Jamie relish. He was a former marine and he served in Operation Desert Storm it was now working for Pfizer Pharmaceuticals on that plane. Ride Jamie was a stranger but they were married a year later so after James Sheila met on the plane and got married. There was new blessed to a degree but was tainted by Sheila's constant problems with Alan because he still had rights with Stevie and Darryl cutting that toxic relationship off completely just wasn't possible in meanwhile Allen married his fourth wife Maureen in one thousand nine hundred four. Sheila hoped that Allen's new mirrored would curb the issues between them but it didn't the following year Sheila gave birth who are quadruplets in San Antonio and the local press fawned over the babies and she became this kind of local celebrity. Mom this all really pissed Alan off and he harassed the balance has every chance he got by this point. Sheila and Jamie moved to keep Allen from knowing where they lived and started planning to move to Sarasota Florida to escape Alan because they wanted to raise their now huge family in peace away from him. So the San Antonio news media followed the stories of the quadruplets really closely and did a follow up segment on the four babies for their first birthday. She at this point was thirty. Three issue. Stunningly beautiful happily remarried and had six kids. Total and Alan persisted in the hatred and jealousy over his ex wife by ninety seven. The bad blood between Alan and his ex wife Sheila was something everyone in the equation was used to. But it's in this year that the tides turned the wheels of conspiracy were set in motion. That summer Alan blackthorn suddenly surrendered his parental rights over Stevie and Darryl to Sheila completely and that same month is when Alan blackthorn started soliciting friends of his like Golf Buddy Danny Rocha to quote unquote. Beat up his ex wife. And I have a theory about why he sort of inexplicably after fighting so hard to beat Sheila whether it's divorce or over custody or whatever I think he decided I that he was gonNA kill her so he's like I can give up parental rights because I'll just get him back killer so it's all getting back the Stepdad's not going to keep my kids so I think he was like I'll stop. Fighting is probably expensive lawyers and shed. He's like I'll just handed over and I'll just get it back. Well in his mind is probably just the easier way out. He's like oh I can just kill her. It's fine no big deal. Where now he's going this back and forth it's a pain in the ASS. He's obviously just like a spiteful piece of shit so why did you always be always be careful? If you're in a protracted fight for really long time and somebody all of a sudden and says okay. I'm good there's something behind that. Oh yeah if somebody's willing to fight that hard for something it's obviously very calculated. Move for them to just back off yet trim so in this ninety seven so they had been fighting for nearly a decade because their divorce was finalized in eight so ten years and then suddenly he's just being amenable to whatever. She wants highly unlikely but in ninety seven of that year a lot happened in that summer in the war. That is Sheila versus Alan. The balance has started the process of moving to Florida so within that timeframe is something very unexpected happened. An incident allegedly occurred between Sheila in her younger daughter. Daryl in these are again the children she shares with Allen so a lot of accusations just so you guys are aware were made during and post the blackthorn divorce when Sheila separated from Allen. It's difficult to determine which accusations were true in which were fabricated as ammunition and sort of as bargaining chips as far as getting custody of the children and fighting against each other to the Bella shes in December of nineteen ninety. Five when they head quintuplets. It was a very joyful time Francis. Anthony is named after my father a month and a half later. We interviewed a much less relaxed. Sheila Belge first week. Oh that was scary. I didn't have for two days and it was. It was pretty rough. It's overwhelming unfortunately. I do a lot of out of town travel so high. Get my wife some help. Investigators are looking into just what happened in the home. Sense there. Deputies had responded several domestic Kohl's in the home in the past year but this time Sheila was charged with third degree. Felony accused of assaulting her twelve year old daughter from her previous marriage with a belt and belt buckle off. Turn it off at the couple's home and burning today James. Belshaw asked us to leave saying we don't know the whole story. She was released on five thousand dollars. Bond custody of her daughter who is staying at a shelter may be given to the state this week. Investigators say the quadruplets were not harmed. This alleged situation resulted in felony charges being filed against Sheila for child abuse. So apparently Darryl said that she'd been beaten with a belt by Sheila which caused welts on her legs her Dad Allen Convinced Darryl to press charges and talk to the police and make a big big thing about this this quote unquote meaning. Maybe it happened. Maybe didn't but he manipulated. Daryl pressing charges against her mom so darryl later said that her father had in fact from the period her into all of this although the specifics are unknown it's he said she said so. We won't speculate further about what really happened. But it's it's key information underlying issues too because there were accusations of us towards a stool daughters or at least one of them. But I I think that came up and the investigation as well. Which is I think. One of the reasons that she was trying to get away from him and get divorced because she's She's talked about Jamie for quite a few times That's why they decided you know sort of place to be the first reason that this is key. Information is because Sheila was arrested arrested for child abuse and her daughter was placed in a shelter. This is some serious ship. The next day Sheila was released on bond and Sheila of course intended on getting Daryl back and she denied that this abuse ever happened but the court process is slow. So he's going to be slow and we can already tell Allen is a psychopath. But here's where he starts leaving tangible evidence that he actually is a cycle. Alan called the bail bondsman that Sheila was using and he posed as her attorney in an attempt to trick the employees into giving him Sheila's new address which was information that she had deliberately hidden from Allen. She didn't want him knowing where she was living. But lucky for police Allen had no idea that the company recorded all of their phone calls so a bond on a Sheila Bella alcott okay. We're trying to figure out that they'll get out data trying to figure out where they came it with her to trial. While Sheila Jamie are settling into their new home in new life in Sarasota. Sheila had no idea what was going on in the background. As it turns out Allen had already learned the address of their new home. The question is how while Alan had hired a private investigator named Chuck Chambers to Hunt Sheila. Down and he did not knowing that he was handing over her location to a total psychopath. Yes so before the Internet. It wasn't difficult to hide your address. The first thing you would do is you would actually pay the white pages. The people that ran the phone book to not include your address in there. That's what people would go through. I then people would have to go through property record search or do a DMV. Search if you remember the case Rebecca Schaeffer. Who was the my sister Sam Actress? Who was killed by a fan? He actually paid a private investigator money. To get her address he got it from the DMV and her killer travelled to L. A. Knocked on her door and shot in the head so Didn't ask questions back then. It was sort of like. Oh you want to know where somebody lives here you got. Let's do it while I've been spending a lotta time at home. I've been trying to build healthier habits and feel better about myself just by practicing some self care and I've been working with new because everyone is different new. Adjust your lifestyle. They teach you the psychology behind the decisions that you make and then he help you. Keep track of everything from workouts to analyzing your diet and recommending healthy recipes. 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If you're like me you probably have been spending a lot of time on your phone and if you WANNA take your mind off things and just have a fun time by yourself. You should check out best fiends so one of the things that I love about True Crime. Is that the further you dig into a story the more layers you uncover. And that's what I love about. Best means to the more you play the more fun it gets reaching each new level. Feels like you're uncovering new layer and a story and it's when you get to take part in and the best part is longer you play the more exciting it gets so best. Fiends is unique and exciting puzzle. Experience unlike any other puzzle games out there. They update the game monthly with new levels and events so it never gets old and they really treat the game like a service to their players. And I'm a sucker for an aesthetic so I love how Q. All the little characters are super colorful and fun so best. Beans has thousands of levels already with new levels events and characters added every month. It's hours of fun right at your fingertips and you can even play off line so over one hundred million downloads and tons of five serve us. Best beans is a must play download best. Pink pins free on the apple APP store. Google play. That's friends about the our best teams. I think it's also interesting to note to like. We're pretty sure that Allen was a psychopath right. And we're reading things verbatim of the things the information that he got from people. But you're not really remembering the fact that psychopaths are extremely charming and can basically get whatever they want very easily and get information out of people even if it isn't a private I just by being there terming selfs while exactly. They know how to elicit the response that they need. They wake up in their brains. Don't work like ours where we are saying. I would never do something like that. Why would somebody wake up and think about who? They're who they're going to manipulate today to get what they want. That's not how regular people thick. That's how psychopaths in it's it's why he was able to manipulate his daughter. Daryl and here's why so. What Allen did was tell people that his wife was abusive towards his children. That's what he told the private eye and it's he has a total like Bundy vibe if you watch any of the shows about him and the SOB story that he told people was. My wife is taken off with the kids. She's abusive and I need this. I need to address a need information about her. What he did essentially was manufacturer evidence of this abuse by manipulating his daughter into making the claims so his story. Everybody is that she's abusive. He needed proof so he manufactured that too by manipulating appre teenager into a selfish. You are like you're going to damage the relationship between a daughter and mother so that you can have a little pond to us at your advantage. So that's that's all of this is it's like he's just checking things off his list. How how he's going to get people to do what he wants. And completely screwing up his daughter in the process to your your your daughter forever. Yeah no he doesn't give a shit and it's just interesting that he's like projecting I mean. He was the abusive one. He's a projecting all of the shit that he's doing onto his wife who allegedly was a really good mother so not the most twisted part of it all so these people did not know that they were eating a psychopath. Hunting down in an innocent person and Alan told tons allies of how she ran off with the kids like Alexis said and played like he was a victim again. That's another thing that psychopaths do they can turn around any story and make it seem like they're the victim so at this point she lives in Florida and she thinks that she's safe. She has her guard down but all the while. The wheels of Allen's plan were already in motion in fact. Joey del Toro who is hired Hitman and his cousin seeming Gonzales. Were already in Sarasota Florida looking for an opportunity to strike on the day that Sheila went back to San Antonio for the court proceeding she needed to attend to get Darryl back and she actually does get Darryl back in. The family is all in Florida. Jamie had started working a new job the family had joined the Sarasota Baptist Church and they thought everything was going to be okay but as we all know now that wouldn't be the case and then finally after months of planning conspiring after more than a decade of harassment. Allen's plan is carried out on November seventh nineteen ninety-seven. Yeah it's a lot of emotions evolved case especially what she was laying there below before or the amount of what he footprints. The classrooms was unreal. Basically they're all standing around or rookie. That really drives that that it's really pushed. All that is what I think. I won't forget back in those days. I was single and I was married. have two daughters and as soon as you have a child when you have a case involves a child whether that child is the victim or is Child that's a big It really kind of gets you right in the heart Very you set your feelings inside until you're done and when I got home. I guess that down just shook my head just because would do something like Joey. Del Toro drove twelve hundred miles to Sarasota where he shot. Sheila in the face slashed or throw in front of her babies. Del Toro had left. A vivid trail of clues including a bloody fingerprint and was easily identified the historic aspect because both civilian. I wish war as civilized. But they're dry is to get what they can get get addictive of a suspect and then present that in court in some way for how long it takes you know saying That's a little bit. Everyone out you know. We try to Somebody screws up. They were needed a rest. You know that's what we do to keep the peace and to keep you know everybody on the straight narrow so to speak to the public or the forensic person that is A. That's a drive somewhere like a police officer. And you get the bad guys you know. Because basically a lot of these cases would not be solved without forensic technicians CSI detective of which I was. That was our goal. We got nothing you go let your you try to find the guy that did it guy or girl family closure that will force as well as you know from part one once they identify. Joey del Toro the identified the other conspirators. Del Toro's cousins samican solace in Danny Rota Allen Blackthorn Golf Buddy. The first person to face charges was Sammy Gonzales. And he was smart he cooperated right away pleaded guilty to conspiracy received very very reduced sentence. The next person he played under arrest Danny Rota in Roach was key to proving Allen. Blackthorn was the mastermind. But Allen wasn't arrested he wasn't arrested for more than two years and here's why Russia refused to talk or cooperate without a sweetheart deal in was trying to strong arm the state into giving him one. He thought that because he was the only person connecting. Joey del Toro to Allen Blackthorn. But he was he in that the prosecution would give him whatever he wanted and they eventually did agree to give him a deal so what he did was confessed everything but when he asked to take a polygraph test to prove that he was telling the truth he failed so the prosecution tosses deal he went to trial and he was found guilty of principle to murder in the first degree in with sense to life in prison for his role in the killing all while. Allen blackthorn remained free to work on his golf swing. So what I say about Danny Rocha. All he did was make a phone call and he got life in prison so they don't around with conspiracy like you introduced they go. I want to hurt or kill someone I got a guy. You're that middleman you're just as guilty any tried to with the prosecution instead of cooperating I think it was the forty eight hours. They were like. Yeah he he was stupid he should have talked right away. He would've gotten a deal. Right would have gotten twenty years but to get life you idiot turned to control the system and he ended up getting bitten the ASS reading. Yeah yeah so al. Blackthorn is still free and weeks. Turn into months. And the proof was lagging behind the suspicion as investigators worked to prove what everybody already knew. Allen was spending time with country clubs and conducting media interviews and he steadfastly denied the implications the killer and the conspirators had never met Sheila but all of them knew or knew of Alan from the golf courses where they worked and played each of them implicated allen in their confessions but none of them could prove Allen's involvement there was no paper trail no transactions. No calls between Allen and the triggermen all they had was the word Danny Russia which they could trust because of a shit credibility it was not enough evidence to win a case against a man who could hire the best defense counsel in Florida so Alan turned into San Antonio's version of OJ Simpson reporters. Were digging up dirt on his past and it was even revealed that Alan and the prosecutor had dated the same woman in the past. So it's these sensational stories like that. That were all over the news and for more than two years Allen. Smugly lived his life after he had stolen. Sheila's so insanely brutally but that was all about to change. Finally two years later at the state believed they had enough to win a conviction if they took allen trial eventually. Fbi agents and Texas Rangers invaded the Blackthorn San Antonio Mansion and they took legal documents and family photos in photograph the trove of sex toys. Trial the prosecution painted Alan exactly as he truly was a sadistic psychopath who stocked and murder. His ex wife after obsessing over her for nearly a decade following their divorce and the trial exhibit. The prosecution decided to lead with was the nine one. One call that Sheila's oldest daughter Stevie made when she found her mom's body day on I did many witnesses testified to the links on would go to in order to obtain information about Sheila. One of Allen's former employees testified that Allen ordered her to follow Sheila Home and report back the address. The jury heard that recorded phone. Call when Alan had called the bail bonds company and posed as somebody else to try to extract information from them in jury further. Learn that Allen would not speak to his daughters for months at a time but then promise he was coming to visit as a way to get the address in Cajole them into giving him information about where she was in after he got the information he needed he would disappear again. Ignore the girls for months depositions from Sheila announced divorce were also introduced in them. She told the lawyers that blackthorn have threatened to maim or kill her adding what seemed in retrospect to be forecast quote. He told me he was in a position to have somebody else do it. So Allen's defense claimed the Danny Roja did all of this in order to get black thorns good graces because he wanted to have a lucrative relationship with him thinking. This is a guy who just wanted to get a rich friend. Another theory that offense introduced that Jamie relish was responsible. Despite his airtight alibi he had an even though there was no evidence to connect him. With any of the other conspirators member it was evidence to connect the conspirators. Definitely bound blackthorn. What are we argue about today now? Black Thorns attorneys. Say they'll proven court Jamie. Belhadj is the real killer telephone calls during his girlfriend. We believe those were made by James Relish. Find out real world was because he was like Joey. Del Toro is the accused trigger man to others. Sandy Gonzalez and Daniel Roach pled guilty and were convicted in. Sheila relishes murder. So what does Jamie Bell have to say about all of this him before my life? Were you expecting something like this? Essentially sort of his AMMO. I guess you could say I truly hope they are stupid enough to to prove Jamie belge merge wife in trial. I'm looking forward to that issue that I have just said that about being stupid. That's the prosecutor guy. The blackmore's attorneys say evidence will show Jamie Bellas Alibis on the day of the murder. Don't check out here's the thing Jamie's alibis do check out and now we're going to hear from the defense attorney isn't a matter of the lawyers making allegations. This is what the evidence is turning up in both in Texas Sarasota Florida. These are what witnesses are saying. That's simply not true. Either way the prosecution was pretty excited for their key witness Danny Roach up. Who Although wasn't given a deal because they didn't believe his testimony to be reliable enough. Did still testify in this trial against Alan blackthorn. Debbie Rowe to did testify and he pointed the finger squarely at Allen as the mastermind of this whole thing. He said that Allen convinced him that Sheila was a danger to their kids and that she was an evil abuser. Joey del Toro was offered. Four thousand dollars to kill Sheila as we all know. He did now switching back to Joey del Toro the triggerman. For just a moment reminds me of a story that emily our first degree from last week told me that she heard on the news or TV show but I looked it up in. This did happen in an interview. Joy Del Toro said that he had showed up at Sheila's house in all of this information about how she's a terrible child abuser. But when you walked in the home he could see her lovingly playing with her four quadruplets. In for a second he was he wanted to back out. He wanted to call this thing off but in that moment. Sheila saw him out of the corner of her eye and with that he decided to move forward. And that's when the murder occurred but it was so goddamn close to not happening that that story's infuriating you know Joey. Del Toro did what he did. He made the decision. He made join. L. Torre was extradited from Mexico. Where he'd been on the run in one thousand nine hundred nine and in two thousand? He pleaded guilty to first degree murder and armed burglary and he was sentenced to two consecutive life sentences the maximum penalty for both charges. And you know what he deserves it but you know deserves it. Even more the person who without them she would still be alive. And that's Allen Blackthorn. Alan blackthorn was sentenced to life without parole for the murder with conspiracy charges and he would serve this all in a federal prison. Allenbach thorns death behind bars. Certain the only variable to consider it was how long the psychopath would actually live for the fifty nine year old died at the Tara prison in Indiana fourteen years after he was sentenced. Jamie bullish along the Stevie in the quads moved to his hometown of Como Lake in New Jersey to raise them as a single dad. Enduro moved in with her aunt and uncle in Oregon. So if you're not a member of law enforcement like myself like Jack like billy these cases have to get your wheels turning your head. How do these cases impact members of law enforcement who have been exposed to other homicides in the past but not one like this? Were a mother of six thirty five year. Old Mother of six is found with her four quadruplet babies standing around her after she'd been brutally killed. I mean what impact does it have on the mind and emotional state of a police officer when you talk to police officers your after. So many years of seeing lot of those. What goes on in society against most people are used to. It does change you you Keep the COP humor gone. He says so. You know laughing at when you're in the face of diversity you know just to keep you just that's we cope with it but down inside. Yeah I it just shows you a little bit. It's like you know. How could somebody is something like that? You know it's these four. Kids will never have their mom back. Saying it's IT'S JUST SO TRAGIC. And it's just heartbreaking to see that as much as it is you know a child Child has hurt whether it's gone accident or Or or shooting or by their parents Because of abuse as it gets to you and have to deal with everybody has a little Bit Different Waco says it does get now when I hear the details of this case the next question. I'm compelled to ask is why do you do it? Imagine showing up at this crime scene seeing these four babies crying seeing this dead young mother. Her husband eventually returns to the scene. He's crushed. There's her two older daughters crushed. It sounds really painful to be a fly on the wall to all the suffering. So of course. It's a question. A lot of us have for people who do really difficult jobs like fast that take an emotional toll. Why do you do it all this trained police officers while I've been a field training officer already career all thirty six years I trained people express train. People on the road It's just And I can see someone's is if they have the Pasha you just you gotTa have it at your heart to do this. If you don't John will eat you up and drive you crazy. Chance your question. I have it in my heart. I've always loved the and for the first day I was on my patrol on my own still tomorrow when I go to work. I look forward to going to work every day. Ashes and I love it. Case of Sheila Belaiche is so layered so incredibly faceted and undoubtedly Feld with so much. Pain Watt at the same time it is filled with so much triumph despite the odds despite everything working against law enforcement. The bad guy did not win. Whether it's a confusion in disgust and trying to understand how to people who say they love each other can go from that to appoint a souring so drastically that one of them wants to kill the other one in had their lover wiped from the Earth even when you do something right and if you do everything right to protect yourself when you realize you're endanger as Sheila. Did something terrible can still happen. How sometimes it feels like the bad guy is winning. But then you remember that win that victory when you're evil is only temporary and I'm GonNa end today's episode the same way and did part one of this two part series on Sheila because God damnit Benjamin Franklin has quotes for days that guy that encompassed feelings in a way I know possible the first quote. I hope that all mankind will at length have reason incense enough to settle their differences without cutting throats. The second quote tricks and treachery or the practice of fools. That don't have brains enough to be honest and I save the best for last quote wherever is begun in anger and in shame a big huge thank you to our first degree officer belt Kutcher. I'm so grateful we had you for today's episode in an extra big thanks to build daughter. Heather. Who's a listener? Who ALERTED US? To the fact that her father was one of the first people on the scene in the case we were covering in part one so this serendipitous situation is incredible. It is the very essence of the first degree. We're all just one three separation away from something like this and this is a perfect case in point. So if you've ever have the opportunity to tell us about a story you're connect you to please do because this worked out marvelously and we are so grateful you take it away verse degree story that you would like to tell us please. Email us at. Hello I greet. Podcast DOT COM falls on Instagram at the first degree at Jack Vanik Alex linkletter at Billy. Jensen join our facebook group on facebook. Just search the first degree in you will find us. We're talking all things true crime and stick around because we're GONNA kill some time and talk about the tiger king and remember only you can prevent serial killers and the corona virus. Keep your friends close and not that close in only feet away. We're going to do sixty way the longer if you guys stay away. This'll end sooner. Please stay home stay home. Thanks happy US our day. Happy jump at a puddle sources for today's episode include People magazine Tampa Bay Times Palm Beach Daily News The Herald Tribune forty hours court documents and as always our first three guests are always our largest source. All right welcome to killing time again. We are still remote from each other trying to make it feel like we're around. Were having a drink at three pm just trying to live our lives but you know how are we doing? We're good little sad over here over here. It is really sad. I I miss. You guys rely. We've been trying to have these zoom meetings like every couple of days just to pretend that we're hanging out with each other It's kind of worked but you know it's virtual life doesn't really it doesn't translate the same no share delicious pizza like we normally would or chicken. Ten Dis chicken nuggets or whatever we normally get dumplings. I'm just eating sad. A peanut butter and jellies. That's all my life better and Jelly That's what my life has come to you know. I can't cook I on my door. Blew Open from my balcony. Jesus Christ it doesn't even look like you have a door there as well as your wall just fell down door. You're crazy so we wanted to talk about Joe Exotic it is. I think it's the most watched anything right now on. Tv I have with it and We have some thoughts Alexa. Billy did you listen to the over my dead body season to the Joe Exotic one. I didn't listen to yes I did. Yes it was you think you will. I listened to the podcast and I know everything. And you really don't and this is if there was ever a case because a Lotta times when we're dealing with true crime you ask yourself. Is there enough video footage for a TV show? And they're so much footage because these people shot themselves over and over and over again not to mention the fact that they are such interesting characters and interesting looking characters that it's made for this. It's made for everybody being at home. It's made for everybody to their jaws to drop and you what I WanNa know from from you all is what was the biggest jaw dropping moment for you. Oh my God. It was like every it was. It was the aside for me when they played the the suicide footage of the Surveillance Camera. Inside where the guy who his campaign. Joe Exotic campaign manager witnessed Joe's Aside I don't think it was appropriate to use it either like I was really surprised I had read an article too. That has family. Didn't even know that that footage existed and they were watching that all for the first time and saw that for the first time in the documentary which is extremely up by. I just want to know the one thing that I've learned from being friends with the Lexus and working in true crime now is that things are always made in a very biased manner so allies manner so I mean the documentary kind of made everybody look pretty terrible so I wonder where you know. Things have kind of pushed the boundaries in that sense of like. You don't think that Carol killed her husband right Alexis I know I. Don't I think that if she killed her husband she would have been arrested for killing her husband? I think no addi- it's ridiculous. And so much of what was a documentary. Wasn't true and it's funny. Because I thought that the PODCASTS had way more information than the show they get into actually like just different things and get you you learn way more about sort of the legal maneuvering and things definitely got that. You're introduced to more characters initia- in the in the video show in the Netflix show. And I think for me the jaw-dropping dropping moment was the zookeeper who who got bit and then just decided to lose her arm or go the arm that blew me away. Yeah and as far as like what jaw dropping moments have been eating adopted in plain sight with the relief. That was the moment that was a jaw. Dropping moment The fire festival when the guy said he was going to have to perform Felicia to get the water out but this one I think trump both of them. I thought the suicide message the big moment I mean. That was just the most thing but it is. I had texted Alexis because I listen to that podcast. Awhile ago so I forget a lot of what was in it and for me what I remember most is just the job versus Carol. Kind of situation and didn't really remember that much that was beyond that in the podcast But it was just so interesting comparing I mean. The kind of they ran colts. So and that whole aspect of the other guy's name was dawn right. We're the did he come into play because I was like this. Whatever you pepper him in as a good character but I remember being like what's the does he have to do with this rivalry between these two. I guess he worked in the whole thing. He wasn't really cannot use his his whole his whole situation with all the women that have worked from since they were fifteen like that do that increasing number one but that shows the handle that he has over those women and then Joe basically hiring out people that were addicted to drugs and offering the math and that is the way that he kept them around is so but the way that they both just how to hold over. These people was just not good. Yeah and also it was a wasted opportunity to include don into that series because he should have his own because it is a call Auntie. Anne's an animal hoarder like exotic animal murder. So it's like it's interesting. Lost Him in the beginning and then kind of just forgot about him but his story with all those women and stuff is so fascinating as well. They should have gone further into his whole situation. To end the fact he was on stage with Britney for. I'm asleep as a crazy. I see what the producers we're trying to do. They just didn't follow through like if it was going to be these three cat. These three people with these big cat things whether it's is your rescue or whatever. They didn't include enough dawn. It was kind of like a throwaway thing in the beginning like I said the episode to never really mentioned him again or what he was doing. You know one of the things that I see happening right now is that you know if if everything get back to to order and by Halloween. This is going to be the costumes for Halloween. It's going to be people dressed up as JOE. Exotic people dressed up as tigers people to start dressed up as each character. This will be the Halloween costume of the season. I mean it's already the costume of the season. So many people are doing kit in their homes with their families from like the random shit they have lying around the house. Yeah but you know that there's yes. Yes and what's the next thing that's gonNA come up though because everybody's watch this now? Everybody's gone through. You're not you know it's interesting. Because of the net flicks algorithm. It's hard to find older things that are just sitting in there you know so and same thing with crime and same thing with Hulu. So what's the next thing that people are going to really going to resonate with people? It's going to be interesting. People put out though that resonates with with tiger king. I think it's a train wreck shock value. Well it's all relative you're not identified with it but it's resonating with you though in what is the the show. I mean it's just it's like. Yeah How's it? Resonated is when there is a personal connection to it. It's Oh you can't. You can't find a person that you identify with on that. Who would you fight with Probably that that long hair. I mean maybe actually know what the producer that used to work at current affair or whatever that guy who was just like I'm GonNa make a million dollars with this guy and his got burned off all guy I says. This is the footage that was in addition to all the shit that got burned there than correct. Must've I mean it was not clear to me. It was a lot more clear on the podcast. In like who's footage was what And but he also did his own and whatever another thing they missed on. The show was how many Tigers Joe killed like. There was like one throwaway line in series. That's like a youth. Anais five tigers but on the podcast. It's like the the filmmaker whose footage was burned was talking about it. He's like seeing Joe Shoot Tigers. Mad Like Willy. Nilly like Im- I understand you can't have don't with cats and then just the pendulum swing over here with Shooting Tigers on TV and Shit. But they made him look believe it or not better than he is. No I no real bad. He's even worse he actually. I mean there is something that's like endearing is not the right word. I'm looking for but there is something about him. That's attractive to a viewer. I guess and yeah he really is and I guess. That kind of overshadows the fact that he was kind of terrible person that things and people just look entertainment value. You know. I think the one thing that they did as as filmmakers is that they did set him up sympathetic in the beginning. And then you see him you see it start going and they really started getting you was you know it was it was. It was very well done the way that they started getting you to like somebody were or dislike somebody and then they flip it and I thought that was interesting in somebody. Somebody had tweeted out that that Joe Exotic is the is Steve. Irwin's Dario if you know anything about barium perfect he's as well. I mean that was a that was one of the craziest shows I've ever watched. I can't I don't know if it's crazier than abducted in plain sight or not. I kind of ducked in plain sight is so up slang thing I've ever watched in my entire life. Meet me too. It's just it's just unreal that that show. I almost don't believe this is like yeah. Put a bunch of rednecks with tigers. Does this kind of what happens in kind of legal stuff but no object inside his mind. Boy It's all like theatrical and people are doing it for show and all that shit so it kind of is believable but abduct in plain sight. All this shit happening like within a family that nobody knew me thinking. This is all okay. This is all okay. We all think this is okay like this. Is Everyone. Sort of being sucked into the dysfunction and like not who said that it was one of the profiles profiles rework. That says like psychopathy. Can't see psychopathy. You know what I mean. So when you're raising a family where there's so much dysfunction it's normalized where nobody can call it out because everyone just living it and used to it just so used to. Yeah crazy up and saying we don't WanNa be objected so we're not elaborating but if you haven't watched it you'll know about if anybody needs another. Binge objected in plain sight. So I think only it's either a three just three more new. It should have been twice a couple. It's crazier than Tiger King and I'm trying to think of any other recommendations that we have for binge-watch is for people who actually have a recommendation. I've been binging on discovery. Id murder in the heartland and then it's like it's an anthology series but it's so well done it's very netflix. Invited me for an ID show. It's really really really good billy. That's what I was emailed billy last night at like three. Am somebody. I'll forget if I don't e mail them to you about these tomorrow. I don't remember. I have to look but I was watching murder in the heartland land. They're using all these really cool shots so I was like. Oh this is a good idea. That's a good idea. But it's it's a really good show if you guys haven't if you'd like Eddie and you have access to. I'd be okay. Well we killed enough time. We're going to go. I guess. Talk to each other all more out of this. Time does fifteen o eight.

Alan Move Sheila Alan Blackthorn Allen Sheila Jamie Alan Allen Blackthorn Joey del Toro Sarasota Alan blackthorn Stevie Sheila Relish Sheila Belaiche Florida San Antonio murder Alexis linklater Billy Johnson Sheila Lee Walsh Sheila Belge Danny Rocha Daryl
Linda Price

The First Degree

54:01 min | 1 year ago

Linda Price

"Thank you for listening to this podcast one production available on Apple podcasts and podcasts one all right guys before we get into our case. I need to tell oh you about one of our amazing sponsors that I've actually been using for years and that is third love so if you're like me and you hate wearing bras it's probably because you've been you were wearing the wrong type of raw or the wrong size but third love uses data points generated by millions of women who've taken their fit finder quiz to design bras with brush shaven shaven size for a perfect fit in premium feel their hands on the most comfortable bra that I've ever worn and they have more sizes than other brands they offer more than seventy sizes is is including their signature half-cup sizes which you might fall under. I sure did so you can go take their fit finder quiz in sixty seconds and you they can to help identify your breast shape and size and find styles if fit your body and they have a fit promised every customer has sixty days to where it wash it and put it to the test and if you don't love it return turn it in third level. Washer and donate it to a woman in need which we love so if you WANNA get fifteen percent off your first order good a third love dot com slash first degree again. That's fifteen percent off your first order by going to third love dot com slash first degree degree degree. I I agree. I agree the first degree supposed to happen in movies. The fear was there. He done implanted that so the I mean none of us would ever be normal game. We would never have any kind of stints of normal life of not being inferior and not constantly looking and wondering and thinking you know. I think guessing there's always even twenty four for years later. They're still fear. Hey guys welcome to the first degree. The true crime podcast that you might end end up on my name is Jack Vanik. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter and next to Billy Johnson and I just got back from a two week long European vacation. It was amazing but I have to admit I am so jetlagged so we're just going to get right into our episode but I if you guys have been listening which I hope that you have you know that we're doing a little bit of a competition giveaway type thing with our podcast reviews on apple podcasts so if you go give us a five star review we are giving away free first degree. Merch so remember to leave your instagram handle at the end of year review and we will pick two a week every week until we decide to stop but it's going amazing thing so check it out and billy. What Day is it so jack. It's September eleventh so the only day that we are going to talk about as far as the day goes is the Rebecca remembrance for September eleventh and there are actually a lot of different days. Remember Freedom Day. It's Patriots Day. It's national national emergency responders day and it's National Day of service and Remembrance Day Billy and I are New Yorkers and I was in ninth grade when September eleven happened and my mom was there in building one at ten. AM The previous day in a bunch of people who went to high school lost parents. I mean September number eleven. no-one should ever forget it yeah and I. That was the only time that I had I was working Nyack New York. It was the only time I ever slept over at at work and I woke up. Somebody came in and said somebody. flew a plane into the towers. After the first tower fell I started driving home and saw the second so the smoke in the second tower from the Nyack Bridge and then took seven hours to get home because they kept on closing losing all bridges and then eventually just left my car in Connecticut took the took the ferry back but it was people don't understand that it it particularly in New York. It wasn't like that was just it. No everybody thought more stuff was coming. Everybody thought the sky was black. Yeah we I was all the way out East Long Island and we were getting burnt pieces of paper from from the boomer esiason foundation like which was on there like one hundred floor or something you know what I mean. It's just insane how big it was for us and obviously obviously it's something that you know. We should like. You said never forget all right well. That's enough of that. Let's turn down the lights and turn up your anxiety because this could be today's episode takes us to Jackson Mississippi. It is is the capital of Mississippi which was named after General Andrew Jackson on October. Ninth Nineteen ninety-five Mariah Carey's fantasy was the top song on billboard all bar charts and the movies in the theater was two movies that are actually very close to my heart and actually very much connected they it could be considered classical sequels to each other seven and toy story which kind of embody billy rather perfect wait pretty much art. So what an another thing that Jackson. Mississippi is known for it is known for the Mississippi State Fair. It's huge massive fair it covers hundreds and hundreds of acres of ground and it's a fair that fourteen year old all crystal who was our first connection today and her mother. Linda price in the rest of their family attended every single year. It was a yearly the tradition in this year. There will be a chance encounter that would change the course of their lives forever. we have a fair and Jackson which is the Mississippi State Fair and my Momma always went. She love we. Lee is a family tradition. as far back as I can remember that we would always go on the first Wednesday of the opening united failure of the fair and walk around. I mean I'm not talking one person. I'm talking about literally our whole family. Immediate family would go okay so the group who was there on that day included crystal her mother Linda Linda Sister Kathy Carol and Kathy's husband and son Linda price was thirty four years old and she was beautiful slim and had long red hair. The group arrived to the fair between six thirty and seven thirty and they went to the beer tent and sat at a table and started drinking joined the band that was playing sounds like my perfect night and of course my momma went she had went into I access beverage stand where they serve alcoholic beverages and Tie Music and he tame up to her and from there is where it all started so cathy. Lynda's sister gets up to go dance with her husband and Linda is alone at the table. Fourteen year old crystal just went off to go play with some kids and a guy walks by the table and he he just walks right up to Linda grabs Linda's hair and says that's the prettiest red hair I ever saw and win when Lynda Sister Kathy gets back from dancing and return to the table. There's good looking thirty. Something Guy with blue is sitting there with Linda and Linda introduces her to him and says his name is Glenn. Glenn gets up and walks away and Linda ask cathy sort of over and over again eighty real good looking she was smitten immediately and Linda in Glen. They were together the rest of the night and they actually started dancing. Even as the rest of the group returned home in move really fast I guess got a week before I met him and obviously obviously they were already talking about moving in together. dated eventually move in together. They got an apartment bark with apartments. I was living with my grandmother. I live with my grandmother willow about six years already. Maybe five years so so I did not live with my mother. My mother had been living with us. my mother had a troubled past so she was trying to get back to where she needs to be and wow another caffeine over you know my answer sweeper off her feet and then let her down. You know I wasn't very fond of anybody should go home because of the circumstances we had billion with relationships of hers her you. We'll see how this goes. I mean we're not start. Start talking to him. Wow you know maybe he used different. Maybe you know uh Chinese the situation for her and love her the way she deserves to be so Linda was a divorced mother of two children. Brin and Linda's Mom Carol said that quote Linda's eyes lit up when she talked about him like she'd never talked about anybody in her life and you know even Linda's mom could see Glenn's Appeal Hill and she said quote you don't say a man is beautiful but he is beautiful and charm. That isn't the word he hugged me and told me you're the prettiest mother and grandmother I've ever I scene and he just made me feel so good. She my mom has long red hair her here. I never remember her ever cutting her hair. Her hair was so long pretty shade of Ridge. You would see I mean. She decides gorgeous red hair. She was real vibrant and finally she very rarely unless she had a reason was in a bad mood She was always chipper traffic. I mean shouldn't make you laugh on. Shall we say something funny to say or does she. Look at you the way and she was always happy for the most part I remember breakfast is almost every morning and her specialty was listed on News House of refuge. She's loved to crew member. We she was always outside gardening she would always have to me out there with her to teach me how to do stuff so. I'm sure you're wondering what is the deal with. This mysterious blonde donned rugged sort of Western vibe stranger because as I've read and seen he likes to our cowboy boots. He likes big buckles like you have to picture him. At this Mississippi State Fair Fair decked to the nines like a Western mystery marble man Marlboro man so Linden Glenn met on October ninth that night at the fair and then four days later on October twelfth. Linda called her mother and Astra to meet her at the Sun and sand motel in downtown Jackson once her mom arrived. Linda introduced her to Glen and Dan before introducing them. She said quote. You'll just love him to death. He's precious. I found the love of my life so sweet. Glenn came down and shook her hand and he introduced himself golf and from that point forward the two were absolutely inseparable so Glenn was thirty three years old and he was from Ohio and he was actually in Jackson working on a construction crew building a new olive garden restaurant area interesting so Glennon kind of lived all over the the place he just come from California. He was living in Los Angeles. He was charming anyhow this interesting sort of a law about him especially to Linda who's kind of like a smaller town Gal and he was described as having this incredible charisma was caring and he really doted over Linda and showered her with gifts compliments complements sweeping her off her feet mayor. He has a non care blonde. Am I mean. He was nice looking for her. he was a nice she was sweet. He I just smooth hoffer. He knew what to say and he was never rude or had a bad now or anything he was always very turn is and what she had knowledge in common and he had done bought my momma car. So what do you guys think about that. I mean there's a word for that. There's a term term for that. There's a term and it's happened to me and I know what's happening Jacqueline. It's a love bomb. He's loved bombing. He meets her. He wants to move in. He gets hyper hyper commitment immediately buying somebody a car within the first month of knowing them that's not. I think just commitment in the first couple couple weeks is not like why. What did they do to earn it? What nobody can respects if you didn't at least have to build a little bit yeah so four days later on October sixteenth. Linda rented a two bedroom apartment for her. Glenn live at the Briar cliff apartments which on the north side of town so they're going all in they're putting their chips all the center of the table. She introduces Glenn to Oliver Over family members and that includes dinner at Linda's mother's kitchen table and also getting to know her fourteen year old daughter crystal. They seem happy. Linda was in this romantic whirlwind that she felt like she deserved to be in. She'd been through a lot and now finally only after all those hardships. It seemed like everything was coming together. Real father had committed suicide. When I was a hero he was a war veteran and it had messed him up so mama dealt with a lot of issues from my father committed suicide but she never really let it show she was always there. I'm sure you've heard me talking about carnival row in the past couple of weeks but I am obsessed. Carnival row is a one hour fantasy drama series starring Orlando Bloom and and Kara de Levin and the series is set in a Victorian fantasy world filled with mythological creatures whose exotic homelands were invaded by the empires of man. They struggle to coexist with humans. They're forbidden to live love or even fly with freedom. Orlando Bloom Plays Ryshkov to fill a straight also known as Filo a police inspector investigating a string of gruesome murders threatening the uneasy peace of the row care delvin plays vignette Stone Moss a theory refugee who flees her war torn homeland homeland to come to the Burgh where she must contend not only with rampant human prejudice against her kind but with the secrets that followed her to this new land but even even in darkness hope lives and human detective and ferry rekindled their dangerous affair despite an increasingly intolerance -ociety carnival row is available now only on Amazon prime video so here's the living situation that was occurring. 'CAUSE you're probably wondering why the fourteen year old daughter in crystal also sibling why they weren't living with their mother as she's moving in with Glenn so prior to Glenn coming into the picture Linda was living with her mother and with crystal and Linda had been going through some things because she'd been through a ton of trauma so she was kind of figuring her things out and getting life back on track she meets Glenn Him with Glenn it didn't really make sense to upper crystal in move out of our room and move her in with Glen this new relationship so she stayed living with Carol who was Linda's mother in crystals grandfather and they'll lived really close to each other. They had two other cousins sentence for example where Linda was living in this area in apartment buildings in front of and behind where Linda was living cousins lived there. The MOM lived right up the street. The grandma like this was very tight wasn't like they were living on opposite sides of town Sunday night. My Grandmother had taken me to my mother's house after church rich and we were talking me and my mom had a bit of a argument I was wanting her to compete knee up and take me to school that we have around the boys anymore issues there for school me school and we saw today and we apologize for the way that and then. She told me we'll take you up in the morning from school for school and you know I'll feed in my job interview. You later love you force. Linda spent the day with her other sister. Marilyn and she came over with her husband and they spend some quality time together that day and at some point Glenn came over and the group decided to go to the sportsman's lounge on highway eighty and Jackson so on this night the thirtieth another strange thing happens there at the lounge there hang out there drinking and Glenn over. Here's Linda telling her sister Marilyn that she loved her interrupted their conversation any energy. He said don't be telling her that and Linda replied to him Glenn. I'm always telling my sister that the two sisters then went into the bathroom and Linda started crying the bathroom so this isn't cut. There's trouble in paradise. What a strange controlling trolling thing to do. What a strange thing to do yeah so Glenn Linda the appear to having one of those. It's all happening week type of things superintendents. Maybe this was part of it. maybe it was just going to flame out it was a poem home and that's it but this is what was going on their own knee. Monday night before all this happened her and my aunt Marilyn and my uncle Charles have went out to a bar drinking and clear had had gotten on the phone and made a phone call on the payphone and my mother and my aunt has went to the bathroom and my mom told my instead I need to talk to you. I can't talk to you right now. Though look out some things about Glenn and I'm scared she said I I need to come to your house tomorrow and we thought I need help figuring out something about that term. They heard banging. Hey on the bathroom door and the bathroom door slam open their screen grabbed my mother and my aunt Patriots home now and and my aunt Glenn calm down you know what's going on. He said I said take it home now. My you know I'll pay your home she. She just figured that he the gadget fitted out something. Maybe the phone calls take out though she drove him home and take it out of the car and she turns around and looks back through during this. You'll be nick okay. He's strong. He's he's just not that he maybe he gets way when he's throwing. She'd never seen him before. So the next day's Halloween in Linda told crystal that she would be there at her mother's House Crystals Grandmother's house at Carol's House to pick her up and drive her to school that morning. Tuesday morning enrolled around it was how Wayne Day and I get up. Get ready for school. I'm waiting my grandma's like well. You know your Mama's not here. You might have a few more minutes. She'll be here and I didn't mind it by criminals. You don't miss the buzz. I'M GONNA go ahead and take you to school. 'cause she. WanNa hand told me to school. We get home run smart. You know Demaim ever come out here now. I haven't seen the so even though Linda didn't show up to drive crystal school. No one really thought this was a catastrophe. It wasn't that big of a deal. There was a daily bus and and also the schools down the street carol could just easily drive crystal to school so it wasn't the end of the world. It was the nineties tech someone and say they were running late. Crystal just got to school and she figured that she was going to turn up and plus crystal was going to see her mom that night for Halloween because Linda's family was going to bring bring all the kids over to Linda complex trick or treat because obviously it was one of those places where you can hit a lot of places over and over again and a lot of lot of candy yeah and you can tell that just based on what they you said about the fair and that they have cousins living on other like all sides of each other. It's like they had a big family. There were tight knit and there was a bunch of them and they would congregate Gayton sort of every holiday celebration. WE'RE GONNA go to Linda's complex. There's a lot of you can hit a lot of house. You're going to get a lot of candy so the plan was for everybody would meet there and just make an event out of it but Linda sisters arrive to go and with our kids to trick or treat but Linda is still not there. Linda's mother comes up to the House with crystal and they could see through the window and they looked at the curtain to the shower curtain to the shower was actually pulled closed closed and four Linda's mother. This seemed odd because she thought to herself that Linda clean houses a lot and she would always leave that bathroom curtain pulled back and I think what we're talking about here. It's just like you don't leave the curtain closed because if you listen to a lot of true crime you know that like you don't don't ever want that close because there could be somebody behind there but you just leave it and I think I saw another interview with her where she describes Linda as an immaculate housekeeper where it's like. There wasn't isn't a SPEC. There wasn't anything hiding in the shower. It was spotless so she would have no problem up and get ready and go with family trickery Kaotry I had I had a nephew that we wanted to take by there and the hard part because she always both the teams risk of we went by there not on doors. There was no sir we won't bury the windows adore nothing but we will and nobody becomes terribly alarmed remember. This is the nineties. There's no cell phones owns. You're not texting all the time. People aren't constantly in touch as they are today so nobody's you know alarm bells going off. Plans change not a big deal. Glen's truck wasn't isn't there and no one answered when she banged on the door. It was very out of character for Linda to just completely flake with no communication but I don't know you know. Maybe something unexpected had come. Homma thought maybe she was out running errands or something. We couldn't figure it out. I mean we didn't know what she was doing with. Eli Really went by there. You'll know is actually had a cousin that lived in a different apartment complex behind on her. He said he had not seen her then. I had another president lived across the way an apartment complex Besa. They had not seen her. We went by there Wednesday. We went Thursday and body. We went by there on Thursday night. My hand says well. I'm just GONNA go ahead. Hey this window and you go on in and see about them on the well. She's got a comeback. I think it was a screwdriver so I'm trying to pry. She couldn't the window of they should. I well. We'll you know we'll just we'll come back tomorrow. Body we actually went back and my grandmother taught choosy. Landlord is you. You know we haven't heard from Linda. We need to go in to see if if there's anything that leads us to where she might be so we can't find Glenn. We haven't talked to either one of them. So by the time somebody was let into to the apartment to check on things it was November third across the maintenance man and he he was actually his son what's good France my brother so he said I will get the call here. We will let you all in and we will let the cop our CNN endorphin a cop migrants survey. We'll talk about that. She calls in Gotham officers to come out and he left the offer certain and we kind of stood by the door of the apartment and soon almost fair so that we'd be you there while the cop goes in and we there were from family members looking bedroom window where the blinds were opened watching watching the police officer goes through the apartment and you could say he went through the living room through the kitchen and then he came back and went through the hall and went into the master bedroom and asked where you know they were looking then because he went out and went into the guest bedroom room and then last he went into the bathroom and come out and he looks at my grandmother and he is till tell it goes and he said mom she's in there and it's bad and moral just fell apart. I mean that's crystal missile said somebody who worked maintenance allowed the police to go inside. Linda England's apartment in what they found was a brutal brutal brutal crime scene. Linda had been starved to death and her body was left in the bathtub and there was a wash cloth over her face. There were peculiar things at the scene. There was a bloody mop. The kitchen sink bloody paper towels in the garbage garbage can and blood smeared on the floor as if someone had attempted to clean it up but that abandoned the job halfway through after realizing their efforts were useless then the apartment was also described by police as being in disarray with cassette tapes beer cans and ashtrays full of cigarette butts scattered on the floor there were blood smears on the kitchen floor and garbage can that contained bloody paper paper towels as well and there was another chilling discovery at the scene so I just got back from a two week long vacation and and I hate washing my hair on vacation because it takes such a long time and I was able to let my hair go a few days because I was using living proves dry shampoo it is he's my favorite so living proof approaches the toughest beauty challenges with technology from MIT scientists so you're that you're dealing with science and not just marketing gimmicks from damage to volume two texture. Living products do exactly what they claim to do without using silicones parabens or animal testing. They're award-winning dry. Shampoo actually cleans your hair. Don't ask me how does unlike other dry shampoo is on the market. Living proof doesn't just mask oil sweat and odors but it removes them completely leaving your hair looking clean in fresh and ready to take on the day and even have a no frizz system that provides weightless humidity protection designed to keep frizette base your hair. Stay soft and smooth even on the days as you don't style it so if you wanNA check living proof and get a free sample of their dry shampoo good a living proof dot com slash I and use Promo code I again living living proof dot com slash first pro-moscow I for a free sample of their garage imp so Linda is in the bathroom and on the mirror in the bathroom in red lipstick a written the words Glenn we found you. She's in the Bathtub Aftab Nude. She's on her back. She has several stab wounds chip to stab wounds under her right breast. One Stab wound above her right breast one stab wound on her right side just below the armpit and one stab wound to her right shoulder blade area so Linda is is gone. She's dead and her new boyfriend is nowhere to be found. You can think of what happened what we didn't know the of it and it's not by. Y'All got out of here. We've got the area and we're GONNA the need to go to a one area so we can question. Everybody is homicide scene. Thanks so we have to get everything done in red lipstick on the Bathroom Mirror was Glenn Dan. We found you. Maybe you know what does this mean going you know and we provide it wasn't. Glenn buys and he here with us to console to feed us through. This is an eight year. Where is he at the brutality of the crime. Obviously mostly shocked the police and their investigations started with who was closest to Linda that was obviously her family and they're working to rule certain people out they had to consider what what was written on that mirror in lipstick somebody after Glenn or did he do this and wrote that on the mirror as this Kinda rose so they decided to call police departments and neighboring states to see if there are any crimes with similar ammos and as the police were on the case Linda's family was grieving and started planning her memorial service for for Linda grandmothers an aunt that up everything for the funeral. I think that was the parents part of everything My Grandmother was shielded me from everything she didn't want anybody. Why tell me the severity of the wounds. The MOM MOM has gotten. She has a funeral and I kissed. This was her choice but to tell me a little bit about it so she comes to me but you know they've asked if we won't it isn't as to why you know. WanNa be Emphysema murder I want to you know see your horn time before and we have two layers yeah. I just need to know that her. I guess I was in denial. She said what uneasy that we're GONNA. Have you can't which we're GONNA have to find certain things for her to wear. She can't just wear an average normal trip. So what do you mean. She said they're defensive wounds that she has a full cast own It's like a cast. You'd put on your arm if you break it but it goes all the way up to her top of her throat almost to her she touched her and going to go down pass tolls and it will go down. You'll be able go to fill it no matter where you touch touch her. I knew he had stabbed her but I didn't know the extent of the staff and she said well. The wounds are so deep that there's really not much they could do. She'd been laying there for numerous date on it comes down to the time to actually go in and view my mother we all go in and I had to wait. I wasn't I had to mentally prepare myself. I go in there and it was it was horrible. It was devastating you could say to her face had bought marks bruises or once. I got there I would not believe and within an hour we noticed and I said what's going on. She said get the funeral director see what's going on. He came in. He said we're going to have to close the casket because of her being as they were the embalming fluid was coming out where two that oppose that was one of the hardest things it was becoming pretty glaring to the police that Glenn was now. Their prime suspect aspect the public was quickly learned to the threat of this killer on the loose which is absolutely terrifying. He comes across his trustworthy intelligent a bit pushy but most of all pretty damn normal and they say they don't know what triggers the other side of Rogers which is the scariest thing of at all we kind of knew it was Glenn but actually started a detective started asking questions and they wanted to know this and Matt and the other in place things that we didn't take as son started popping often out like a sore thumb things that he said things that he did things that were seen all came in to perspective. If he has killed muster his no other explanation. There's nobody else that could have done it after the viewing portion of the service but before the funeral service itself took place Chris so in her grandma Carol went home to sort of regroup when they were there all of a sudden the phone rang in when she picked up the phone a male voice on the line set. Is this Linda's mother. Yes it is. I'm Glenn's brother. I'm looking for Glenn Rogers. We're looking for him to why my daughter has ended up dead. I want to know where he is. I'm not surprised that your daughter is dead because anybody that has been around Glen for the last. Seven years has ended up dead. What what are you doing. Why are you calling calling me. Your fucking daughter is dead isn't she. So the voice line is one that Carol recognized we go home astor's offers of Ewing and my grandmother receives a phone call. She almost phone calls. She's acid. She said Glen were you. I Wa aw did you leave us you know and that's when he kept saying don't say anything you will be watched. He tried to play it off but it wasn't him. That was his brother that made the phone call but my grandmother his voice that was him. He's telling us but if we speak to anybody nobody he will make sure that we're all killed. He will be watching us at the funeral and that we are not say anything new anything we're to just watch ourselves well. Of course my grandmother gets the cops involved and tells them Halo. We need security after his funeral watched where you know being threat so we get the security and we bury my mother. Nothing why we don't have enough stories that now we have to worry about a family as well as being threatening the phone start ringing with it calls from investigators and other states where young women had been killed in the same way police agencies from all over the United States in Canada. Were calling enquiring about this individual they had unsolved murderers. They were trying to connect them to and they did connect them to them. this time we get home from the funeral and wake how my grandmother gets called. There's another person fan that the has ties to Clinton. She was found in Tampa Florida so we're thinking. Oh Gosh you know what is going on. Here's another victim I guess it wasn't even a day later. My grandmother gets another call if there was a victim I'm in California Marc car so one call after the next came in to the Jackson Mississippi police there were female female victims one after the next all in their thirties all single and each having beautiful red hair just like Linda price. They believed that Glen Rogers could actually be a serial killer leeward terrifies. We were all afraid everything one for the situation hand. My mother had been murdered. There's just monster on the run for nights. We would stay at my grandmother's house or we we would head off but we wouldn't. We sleep with all the vice on Alma sales. I cannot be alone. I wouldn't stay on in the daytime and wants down nights if I went in the bathroom had you have somebody there with me for state out of school for weeks. I fear my family fearing that. Maybe he come pick live from stalled. Semi pick me up from school when I finally was able to go back just so I have someone that will follow me all through the school to make sure it was where I was supposed to be because we didn't know where he was that he was washing her so he was planning his next move or he was doubt now. His name leading knows it was a living hell. It was a living nightmare so they're reporting about. This case. Ace really kind of was out of control. The media covered it vastly in multiple reports actually though the police stated that they were unsure as to what triggered Glenn to the violence because there were also reports of multiple relationships he'd had were it didn't escalate to murder obviously where there was abuse or or other things like that but not murder but they were about to learn something that would offer a pretty big clue. Hey Hey everyone so the fact that fun twenty one thousand nine hundred fall box is on sale now and I just got my box and I've been obsessed with these harper and Ari exfoliating full eating sugar cubes that are green and they says when you put them in the bathroom and they are amazing so what thoughts it fun is women's lifestyle subscription box filled with large large-size not travel size or sample size but large-sized products beauty fitness health wellness everything that you could ever want to splurge for yourself when you're feeling that it's to go shopping but there is a catch and that is they don't last long they sell out really quickly because the value of these boxes huge and everybody's waiting to get one as soon as they go on sale in the items and every boxer customizable and I chose this kate spade makeup that is so cute. I am obsessed with it. The VAT comebacks retails for forty nine ninety nine but it always he's has a value of over two hundred dollars so use coupon code first degree for ten dollars off your first box at fat fun Dot Com. That's Fab pit fund dot. COM and don't forget to use our code first degree for ten dollars off your box you know as a true crime lover we obviously spend a lot of time listening to some dark subject matter but but when you go home and you go to bed you want to feel safe and sound and you can with. Adt So if you can get all the latest innovation and Smart Home Security combined with twenty four seven monitoring from one of the most trusted names in home security you can get a team of professionals designing installing a secure smart home just for you you there's eighteen thousand employees safeguarding you with connection to first responders and you can get the nation's number one smart home security provider with a SM- secure smart home you have everything from video doorbells indoor outdoor cameras smart locks and lights and they're all controlled from the ADT APP or the sound of your own voice ace and you can get professionally monitored carbon monoxide and smoke detectors and a system custom designed to fit your very own home and you can get safety on the go in the car car or when your kids are at school with the at go APP or an SOS button so today's podcast is sponsored by Adt remember the night before Linda's murder when Glenn went to the Sportsman Lounge with Linda Linda sister in Linda sister's husband and there was an argument over for Linda tying her sister that she loved her that something happened on that night in Glen had taken a phone call which had made him enraged and we're GonNa learn what that was all about right now. Go back through the night here. In my in my mother and uncle went out. The phone call that was made was to his mother. That's how he got his kicks of killing he would call his smother and that was so human rampage to murder these women every tom he's murdered a woman before he murdered the way that he made phone talk to his mother. If he I mean he has so much hatred for his mother and his mother and her day was kind of a red headed mm-hmm figured woman so what does he kill slender breadwinners. That's right Glen's mother other had red hair and so did his four female victims that police believed he was connected to but Glen he's in the wind and but the police dig into his background and they learned that he had actually been married and he had two teenage kids he was fourteen gene when his girlfriend deborah and Knicks got pregnant and had their first child in nineteen seventy nine and he married Deborah and soon they had another child Alden eighty-one. The marriage fell apart because apparently he was physically abusive to her. He actually has debbie tattooed across the knuckles on on his right hand. Debbie and the kids lived in Houston Texas so the police are thinking that maybe he's headed to that part of the US another location the FBI had their sights on was Hamilton Ohio. Hamilton is a blue collar city outside of Cincinnati and it was once called Little Chicago because because of all the mobsters gangster activity that used to occur there. It's now being called. Little Harlem it because of all of the heroine activity but Hamilton is also where Glen Rogers is originally only from and where his family still lived so the FBI wanted to speak to anybody who knows Glenn who maybe it will shed light on where he could be and starting with his his family and the police start to unpack information about Glenn's childhood and Shocker. There are some red flags stories from a checkered and troubled past started to emerge and some of the details were chilling. Glenn was from a huge family early he was the sixth sibling out of seven and all of them suffered abuse from their mother. Edna Rogers and many budding serial killers glenn what the bed until he was twelve years old and it was also at twelve when Glenn began indulging in drugs and alcohol as a result too early exposure to substances by his older brother. Clay claimed Glenn started burglarizing homes together for money and they were caught after robbing more than two hundred homes so this event seemed like it was directed and was pretty profound for the development of his Mo and the Radford University Psychology Department. Actually we did a run up of of his psychological profile apparently Glenn had found naked photographs of his mother who it was a redhead after this happened. Glenn actually tried to commit suicide by taking twenty-five painkillers Odeen but he didn't commit suicide but you could see how they you know they. This is a profound thing based on what we're learning right now. It's a pretty big deal for glad. When he's a bit older. He sees mom in a bar with the man who wasn't wasn't his father and Glenn Apparently Beats Him with a baseball bat and after that Glenn brought his father to the bar to show him what his mother was doing and there's more information here so the father it's blurry with the father suffered. I believe a stroke and was sort sort of bedridden and after that kind of incapacitation occurred is when the mom started to kind of do our own thing and I think Glenn started to get a little resentful and then when Glenn believed that his own teenage wife was cheating he actually follows her and he says that he witnessed her pickup man and she was actually a sex worker. which is something that Glenn New before she he married her so after he sees this he follows her home and he beats her within an inch of her life? He kicks her over and over and over again in the vaginal area with his steel toed boots to the point where actually actually needed surgery to fix herself. She needed surgery because this animal did this. This animal just kicked her over and over again with these steel toed boots and there's other another interesting thing because this happened a couple times he admits in the hospital at one point that he actually literally injected Budweiser the beer into his veins in order to get high and also used cocaine in excess yeah so what billy saying you're into some it all up is. Glenn has severe problems Severe Addiction. He lies he steals feels he cheats he beats in sexual assaults women attacks and brutalizes anyone he feels inclined to harm and he's only getting more violent as he gets older but at this point. I mean you can see just a clear escalation here and now after what happened with Linda. We know he's a killer for sure her and he would surely kill again if the police didn't stop him. Glen Rogers name was added to the FBI's ten most wanted list and as the details of the slayings came to light in more things were uncovered. You know the name the cazenove killer the cross country killer were floated through news as he remains uncaught and it was very reminiscent of Ted Bundy in my opinion like I read this stuff and he's so similar the state to state to state thing the reinventing himself I mean he was just described as handsome charismatic. I mean he's in that sort of species. ABC's of Predator there are several books out and if you re one of the books as a bow how the thinking twisted childhood he had things that his mother would do walk time for the bad and you know and I know things like that will mess with a person's brain and and I just I don't let's see anything that could justify killing another human being co-boys just for the hell of the thrill. I just don't see benefits justify. So what are we learned today. I think we're GONNA wait to figure out what we learned about Glen Rogers until next week because we've only hit the tip of the iceberg right and crystal. Our first degrees story is far from over in fact she she is still dealing with Glen Rogers to this day decades later and we're going to tell you all about that. She has a lot she wants to share share a lot. She wants to bring attention to and there's also multiple other victims in this case in each situation. Chen is is more chilling than the last and he is a serial killer that very few people have heard of so. We're very eager to share a part two with you as well as says deconstruct the mind of this true we horrifying psychopath so until then follow us on Instagram at the first degree out Alexis linkletter at Billy Johnson at Jack Vanik. Please write us. If you're one degree away from a murderer other stranger than fiction story. Hello at the first degree PODCAST DOT COM join our secret facebook group has popping off with all things true crime and again enter our little giveaway to win some free. I remarked by giving us a five star review on Apple podcast and yeah so on that note remember only you can prevent serial killers and keep your friends. Close does not that close sixty seconds. That's exactly how long this commercial lass but do you know what else you can do. In about a minute you can get an offer for your car with truecar. That's right in the amount of time that it hits you to foster teeth. Pet your dog do a few sit-ups or just listen to the sound of my voice. You can get true cash offer and best of all you can do it from your smartphone or your home. All you have to do is go to truecar and simply enter your license plate number and watch how your cars details pop-up answer a few questions and you'll get an accurate true cash offer from local certified truecar dealer. It's that easy after that. You can bring get to your bring your car in and they'll check it out with you together. 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Linda price Glenn Him Linda Linda Linda Sister Kathy Carol Glen Rogers Andrew Jackson Mississippi Glenn Dan Apple Glenn Rogers Billy Johnson Linda England Linda Linda Jackson Mississippi Mariah Carey Jack Vanik Linden Glenn California
The Warriners

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

The Warriners

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. Have you ever thought about the fact that we're you choose to live directly impacts the you that you become? So I just moved into a new apartment by the water and marina del Rey, a year ago. And to be honest, it's the first time that I've really felt like I have my home and I found my apartment through apartments dot com. So apartments dot com has the most listings, which means the you of the most apartments, townhomes condos and houses to choose from to unlock your full potential to become the best version of yourself. You're in control of your rental future, and not to mention they have a bunch of custom search tools. So if you're looking for something specific, which I definitely was like pet friendly or commute friendly. You can find it all in one place, but there's more with apartments dot com. What you see is what you rent, they combed through all their listings. Make sure all the information is verified and up to date. So you're not wasting your sweet time. They make hunting for a new place. A breeze says send subpar rental search sites packing and visit. Apartments dot com to find your perfect place apartments dot com, change your apartment, and change the world warning in many of our episodes, the crimes happened years or even decades ago. But the horrifying events in this episode took place just weeks ago. The case is still unfolding. All parties involved are innocent until proven guilty. And also, another warning the content is very graphic. Degree degree post degree. First, the first degree. You're supposed to have it in movies. Not we'll light. This is only been the last couple of months that does this happened. I don't I don't get nightmares. I don't I in true crime horror movies, things like that, all the time, just doesn't bother me this bothered me. I had nightmares like wake up screaming in the middle of the night nightmares. Because of this. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Fiona. I'm sitting across from Alexis linkletter just took a big big breath already her us. And next to Billy Johnson who brought us ace Christ bars. That's the great thing about walking around Hollywood. There are men walking around with ice cream coolest right outside my smart right outside of your do we trust those to eat. Absolutely. L to guy with a cooler and a bell. What's going to what could be wrong with that? You could definitely poison one of those. He did not have the strawberry shortcake ones that because I thought that you would like that. Kind of look like to you. I don't know. I thought you would like the kind of fake weird artificial strawberry, now that's Jared thing. Chocolate, always, or if I don't want any sugar unless it's like chocolate in good quality, right? Well, we chocolate waiting for us and excites deeply. Thank God, what days it. Billy. There's a lot to pick from today. It's national pudding day chocolate pudding day. Yes. Huntings gross headings, not for me. It's a frozen putting is like ice cream. I'm still waiting for putting trucks we did cupcake trucks. We had all these food trucks, putting trucks. Exactly. And not even not even put it in a Cup. Just actually just poured and people's Custer. Am I got a flying Dutchman from in and out, you know? No, do you know what that is? So flying Dutchman in and out is when you just put your hand out, and they just slap the patio. That's not is looking up, Google it on their secret menu. What I do that flying. Dutchman. Wow. I never heard of that, before he wrinkle in your brain today. It's also tropical cocktails day. Yes, I tie baby, and I actually got to drink with my daughter at a bar for the first time, because she turned twenty one, a couple of months ago and we went to Tiki TI which is one of the oldest Tiki bars in Los Angeles. And it's family owned, and we had some cocktails, and it was wonderful. How long do you think she's been drinking for oh, probably seventeen years? Well, the doubt like you see, like stealing the vodka and filling it up with water that did happen. And I called her out on it. And she was like, we'll go sorry. Yeah. It's like I drink straight vodka. I know what it tastes. Like when it's watered down. So, yeah, I called seriously. If you didn't do that, as a kid, did you really live now? He didn't. All right. Well, that's enough of that. So let's turn down the lights and turn up things -iety who's this could be. On may fifth of twenty nineteen. Yes. May fifth twenty nineteen which if you're listening to real time this was last month. Police got a call from resident of an apartment complex in the neighborhood of Denton, Texas. The caller was concerned about some strange behavior. Her neighbor was exhibiting, the behavior wasn't overtly deviant, but strange enough to elicit a call to the police when the police arrived, the door to the unit was a jar when they stepped inside the made a horrific discovery, there was a body. The scene was gruesome beyond comprehension. The most ominous thing at the scene was ironically, not what they could observe rather. What was missing which was the head of the victim? So for the past ten years had always been Sarah, an Isaac Warriner Sarah had been raising her son alone, for the most part in the suburbs of Denton, Texas, since the divorce, for husband ten years prior. They lived in a high end apartment complex at twenty four hundred Stockbridge road in Denton. On may fifth two thousand nineteen just a little over a month ago, but didn't police received a nine one one call. The caller said that her neighbor, twenty two year old Isaac Warrener was outside of the apartment that he shared with his mother, and he was behaving strangely and the a shopping cart with him. That was full of cleaning supplies. The neighbor was looking at the item to the shopping cart, all the chemicals at such, and our first thought was that maybe Isaac was making a bomb so officers showed up to the scene. They find the shopping cart with all the cleaning supplies outside the unlocked department. Outside, there's no sign of the car, which the mother's car, which Volvo inside. There's no sign of Isaac, but they move quickly to clear the apartment. So they moved through each room, and then go into the master bedroom. Which is where they found the decapitated body of who they believed to be Isaac's mother Sarah, and it looked like she had been dead for proximity to days. So Sarah's head was missing. And to this day, it hasn't been found, or if it has been found the information hasn't been released to the public, yet, the cause of death has not been announced there may have been head trauma, but we don't know that information is missing. But let's talk about what the police did find in the apartment, they found a hacksaw and evidence that Isaac tried to wash the hacksaw to clean it up looking at the scene. Investigate investigators to do that Isaac, severed. His mother's head from her body, and rinse the hacksaw in a bathtub and the toilet, we already mentioned that Isaac was seen acting super strangely with those cleaning supplies outside of his apartment, when the cops were called on the day that the crime scene was discovered. So the investigators immediately sent out an alert to be on the lookout for Sarah's car since it was missing from the scene. And obviously Isaac was also missing and about twelve hours later in thirty miles away officers with a Gainesville police departments spotted the Volvo station wagon, and it puts the driver, Kevin Phillips, who was the chief of the Gainesville police said officers got a caller on nine forty in the morning. On Monday, the sixth, which is the next day after the body was discovered about a man, trespassing at the tire service center at the Gainesville Texas, WalMart. The officers pulled up to the scene. And as they're observing this person who's acting suspiciously. They recognize that it is. In fact, this person Isaac Wariner who they had been alerted to keep an eye out for so is exceeded the officers and starts running towards the front of the store. He jumps into his vehicle and tries to run over one of the officers who was chasing him. Fortunately, the officer was able to move quickly enough and jump out of the way a move that probably resulted in saving his life. Isaac van got on highway eighty two and headed east before completing a u-turn that took him back in the opposite direction. And then we have seen it all. So he did all of this while driving with a flat tire at one point Isaac lost control of his car. And he slows down officers approach him while he's still in the car, one officer pulls out a teaser and deploys it, but it misses him is then steps on the gas guns at northbound on a service road before getting back on the highway. And during this pursue a piece of the wheel from Isaac's car hit the windshield of the police officers that were in pursuit causing damage to the vehicle. But luckily again, nobody was hurt but he's obviously driving on a car. That is. That is going to get out of control at some point, but he keeps going to the chase actually continues over the border into Oklahoma. And he finally loses control the car. The car crashes into a median at approximately ten thirty AM the love county Oklahoma deputies arrest him. They take them into custody and execute a search warrant for the car Isaac was arrested on may sixth and Oklahoma for looting authorities, and he was taken to the love county jail, or he sat for ten days until Thursday may sixteenth. He fought extradition back to Denton the entire time, but was eventually forced to go back and was booked on bonds, totaling nearly three hundred thousand dollars. And he's charged with tampering with evidence and abuse of a corpse related to his mother's death. Right. And at the time of his arrest, it was reported that Denton county police were working with the Tarrant county Emmys office in Denton county DA to determine if additional charges would be filed because there's lots up in the air here. I'm sure you guys are asking with the unfolding of. Events with a son allegedly doing something horrible to his mother. And this there, there are a lot of questions. So we're left to ask ourselves. How did this happen? Why did this happen in why in general, do such horrific crimes take place to find out will need to retrace ISAACs movements prior to what happened? And Kelly Smith is our first degree connection. She was friends with Isaac and high school. And also in college. She was in student council with him for two years. They planned homecoming dances, proms and a million other school functions, which is a direct quote from her. They went to the lake together a few times, and spend a lot of time together outside school participating in senior ditch day in countless other high school type memories. They ended up graduating going on as I. I said to the same college university of North Texas in their hometown of Denton and they spent their college orientation, week together, however, they did start to lose touch after she started hearing stories of Isaac strange and erotic behavior. Remember these events unfolded last month, and she and her friends are still reeling from the news and we are going to provide, as much information as began so Kelly is going to take us back and tell us all about the Isaac that she knew the guy who was seemingly normal only a few years ago. When I first are you saying? Egli lever juniors in high school. I remember him being very tangible person. He didn't dress up, but he leaves also not dirty just were t shirts and shorts and he tried to make people laugh. He was he was funny wasn't necessarily the most popular person in school, but he did win loss president and he was night, and he was. You know, making himself the center of attention and any room that he was in. He was killed. He was told he told her in most of the guys went to school. With ski, we started being friends, I think closer to my senior year, I think I had classes with him junior year. We knew each other. We have some of the same friends, but my senior high school and went into student council and my best friend Chloe, and he ran against each other for vice president or president and Chloe ended up winning vice president, and he won president. I remember he, and I would run errands together, and we would, you know, go out and leave school to do things for our our student council teacher because he was a friend. He was somebody that I would confide in here and there and you know, vent frustrations about student government and about, you know, just high school in general, waiting to get out waiting to go somewhere else. I don't remember ever having many issues with him. He was just a nice person. So after high school Kellyanne Isaac also went to the same college. He and I did go to the same school at university of North Texas are freshman year. My mom actually left me with ten or a college orientational, our first day I was walking around with my mom on, you know, the first day of where teaching and he and another girl that I was school with walked up to me. And we were talking and hanging out my mom's like hey, do you just leave you with your friends, but it was, again, the fine, and we walked around together, and keep I went to his dorm, and saw his dorm, and he went to mine and all mine. And we hung out we had a full week of orientation. We hung out that whole week, and, you know, started college together, essentially stirring, ISAACs early college years, that he starts exhibiting concerning behavior. He gets DUI, which apparently was shocking to those who knew him and didn't county jail records show that is a Gorna was jailed on charges of driving, while intoxicated, and possession of marijuana earlier this year. He was arrested by Corinth police for driving while intoxicated in December. So I'm always traveling. 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Let's do that, like, and she was like very weirded out by she was very uncomfortable that the situation and I remember her texting us I believe, before she even got out of the parking lot. Like, oh my God, I just ran into Isaac and he was being super weird. And she just I could tell that she was insanely I'm comfortable with the situation. It's at this point that Kelly starts to distance herself from Isaac because his behavior, it's concerning. But it's also kind of out of nowhere unexplained as far as the guy, she's known for a number of years. I remember finding out that he had gotten a second DUI, and that was the one where he had a he was in a car accident. I don't know if he hit a pole or a tree, or something like that, but it was a single car back. It was just ten and I don't know if she had hit the pole or tree in an attempt to get away from police or if he had hit it. And then somebody called the police, I don't know exactly what happened in that situation. I like getting one, do you I was incredibly shocking? The first one was, I remember being, you know, passed around constantly because people were just so incredibly, especially in a day where Uber is so easy. It's so easy to get a ride home from a bar, and it was just the only word I can think of is shocking, then Isaac posts, a bizarre Facebook live video that really rattled, anybody that saw it. So I remember somebody telling me, and I, I don't remember who. But somebody had told me that he did a like a Facebook live, and he was just sitting in front of a camera aiding. And I vaguely remember somebody told me he was just beating popcorn. And then I remember after that she had somebody told me that he had posted on Twitter. That he wanted to kill himself and that he didn't think that anybody cared. And again, I didn't see these tweets, somebody telling me after the fact but this again, just incredibly shocking that somebody that was so normal endless, so seemingly put together at one point in their wife had almost completely fallen apart. The Facebook live video is more than forty minutes long, and we're just gonna play about thirty to forty five seconds of it so you can get an idea of what it was all about. And we'll. Thanks Bill salt, Veneta to you. Yeah. Jumping. Happy. Oh. So the question that all of his friends are thinking about, you know with this generation, and with probably future generations you become friends with everybody on Facebook. And then you're watching each other as you live, there live their lives as they move on. And, you know, there's been this talk of, like you only post things on Facebook. That makes you look good. You're you're highlight reel. There's been a lot of studies about that about how that that had that can affect you. But what he's doing is, he's posting this video and his friends are looking at going. This kind of was the class president. This guy was the guy that put everything together, and he spoke at graduation, and apparently was a really funny speech. Is he had a great sense of humor? You look at his everything else that he was posting on Facebook. He was really into combating climate change. He was big Beddoe guy. I mean he was yeah. He was very much. Much into trying to save the world. Yeah. And then this, this video comes up. What's going on here? Right. So we should probably. I mean Kelly's talks a little bit about what he was like, but we should delve more into what he was all about. So as we know Kelly was baffled that the guy she knew to be this over Cheever class. President do. No wrong son of strict parents, just funny likable guy even got a single DUI. She expected him to just be this like, straight-laced guy, overachiever forever. She's even more floor to hear that there was a second. D Y. Not only that, though, it resulted in a single car wreck with Isaac by the wheel. I remember finding out that he had gotten a second D Y, and that was the one where he had a he was in a car accident. I don't know if he hit. A poll or a tree or something like that. But it was a single car back. It was just ten and I don't know if she had hit the pole or tree in an attempt to get away from police or if he headed. And then somebody called the police, I don't know exactly what happened in that situation. So we're only out some facts as to what is state was at the time that all of this was occurring. He was twenty two years old, just graduated from college where he had worked as an RA at the university of North Texas in college had also been a director of leadership and development of the student government association as well as a campus life ambassador. So this is interesting. So I went on kind of deep dive looking for information on Isaac, because just let you guys now this is very new case it's hard to find information, it's still precious as far as the investigation is concerned, and the only information is kind of like the same article regurgitated over and over there's very little, but I went on a dive, and I went on linked, and he's a third connection of mine, which I thought was interesting. Interesting means I'm three what is it? You're tweeted, three degrees of separation away from Lincoln. So I have some friends who were friends with his friends, all like, Dan, is with that means. So I. Didn't gleam that much other than what Jack just said in terms of what his kind of on paper accolades were, but I did find beaming review from a colleague that read throughout his tenure at the university of North Texas. He has been one of the most thoughtful and focus student leaders of ever seen after working with him last semester on the university wide homecoming planning team. And I've seen a stellar performance as spirit coordinator for UNT student run programming council. I'm so odd by his conviction and dedication towards university's mission and all only going into his fourth semester. I can't wait to see what's to come from an of North Texas top student leaders. And if you look at his linked in profile, Isaac Warriner director of leadership development student government association. Obviously he took. He was a big guy with homecoming, and Stu leadership in high school. He brought that over there. I'm actually a third degree right from him as well. It's probably because of me or like we probably the same connection, there's something to it. But he was a resident assistant. He was the person that you go to our app. You're having problems or, or whatever you know, where you're living campus life embassador just everything about his profile is leadership. It's all about leadership. Yeah. I think you'd probably wanted to do politics. Something along those lines seem like a very kind of together guy and, and he's a leader. That's what that's what he was. That's what we wanted to do. So if you're asking yourself, how a guy who seemed like on a track to do great things that was a leader in high school. It was a leader in college. How did this happen and whether any red flags, and there actually were after Isaac's arrest? Police documents revealed that half dozen of is former classmates for the university of North Texas said they noticed a clear decline in his mental status. Over the course of a few years, and the police had actually responded to at least twelve calls from people concerned about his behavior since February before the killing. So it was revealed by the media that on March thirteenth. Less than a month before this incident. Occurred Denton police received a report about Isaac from his friend Mia who had gone to college with him. And she had talked to Isaac on and off since college, and they remained really really close friends. And when she called the police, she urged them with check on him. The reason she gave was that she had seen troubling Facebook posts were Isaac talked about feeling suicidal. And then when she met with him out of concern at a coffee shop in Dallas week prior to the incident. She said that she felt so uncomfortable around her friend, that she cut the meeting short and left. She called the police out of concern for him in the officer told her that it was not the first time that they had received a call about Isaac, but he explained to her, that no one ever answers the door when they go there. Despite that an officer did go over there in check on Isaac at the apartment that he shared with his mother. But again, nobody answered so they left and they filed a police report. And even before a meal. Authorities. The didn't county police were told him in February by another university of North Texas friend name Hannah Warrick that somebody needed to check on Isaac. He had gone to visit her in Texas and showed of a week earlier than he was scheduled to visit. And she said that when he came out here, he was just so far from himself. He was having a really hard time reading, social cues, and he was carrying on a conversation in a way that was unusual, so she called the authorities. But because she didn't know as a dress, should she was told that they could not make a welfare check on him without the information. She told the media that quote, there is no part of me that could ever. Imagine him hurting or much less killing a person. I learned that the cops have been called multiple times from one of the articles, one of the article stated that the constant been contacted twelve separate times. I think from either his mom or from past friends, I believe that the tweet him saying that he wanted to kill him might have started some of that it was really upsetting to me. It was really upsetting to hear that most people people, including his mother tried to get him help multiple people try to help and, and the only way that they knew how and it failed. So in what is sensually, Ecorse Shindo of his behavior? Sarah herself is mother had even called the police about Isaac days before her body was found to report that our son had gone angry with her in that they had a verbal altercation in the police arrived quickly, but Isaac was already gone when they arrived, and they told Sarah to call nine one again, if he were turned if the situation continued, or escalated in any way. Then the very same day. Sarah, Warren, Warren, or call the police on Isaac. He sent out a tweet that read for real, does anyone care that I'm actively suicidal, and this is a tweet that many of the friends, we've previously mentioned reacted to and also called the authorities to. So this is something that really alarmed people. This in conjunction with the Facebook post in conjunction with just like obvious babies at his friends are noticing when they're trying to spend time with him. Yeah. And to go from a really charismatic funny guy after public speaking to this guy, creeping, people out at WalMart doing shit online in actively being suicidal in posting tweets about it. Everyone was alarmed understandably should've until like be able to have conversation like it's, it's bad. It's bad and it's scary. The police are trying to react in. It's a very in. We'll, we'll get into this later, of course. But it's like it's a str-. Range in difficult thing to address. Yes. So the next day, a former classmate named Abby gross reported this to the police, and she also told the woman who took our call that she observed cut marks on Isaac's arm. Abby said she and Isaac Warriner had met at a local doughnut shop that Wednesday morning less than state more than a catch up. And she said, quote, he showed me as arm, and it was covered in cuts. He told me he tried to kill himself the night before. Abby was told that the police would have police officer do a welfare check on is a coroner and to call back if things get worse. So seemingly. He's putting this stuff out there. He's meeting with friends. He's, he's not barricaded cuts. He's also putting it out on social media. Yeah. That there's bad and his friends are actually reaching back out to him at also reaching out to the police. So it seems like everybody's trying to do the right thing. Yeah. So this all culminated in a final call to police about Isaac didn't police responded to a welfare concern at the apartment that Isaac and Sarah shared Saratoga police that her son had cut his arms with a razor. And she took him to the hospital is told a nurse that he was going to kill himself and his mother. But he fled the hospital before security officers arrived Sarah told the Denton police that she found her son walking on the road, she picked him up and drove back to their apartment. And at some point is it took his mother's phone away. So she couldn't call, but the next thing that I remember hearing, is that I was I home in almost midnight by myself in my room and pony Techni, and me, a screen shot of the articles stating that his mother has been murdered and in article it doesn't show that doesn't save it. He's the one who killed her. It's just he's been arrested. As a suspect. In smarter case and the three of us meet Chloe Morita, who only within data just just talking. We were like we were all so incredibly shocked. It upset me so much finding out that he had decapitated her. And I'm sure it was in an attempt to clean up his mess. But it I don't I don't get nightmares. I don't I take in true crime horror movies, things like that. All the time I constantly reading crime, constantly listening to grand podcast. Doesn't bother me that bothered me. I had nightmares like wake up screaming in the middle of the night night. There's because of this, and it was just don't telling to find out that she had not only murdered his mother, but had gone on to. Abused her body after she had died. I don't believe that there is any from what I've read from what I've heard. I don't believe that there was any. More abuse after the big capitated in, I don't know why that was the only thing that he did. And. I don't know if they ever found the head I from what I heard I don't believe that they ever located has mother's head. When we were first having the conversation about that when we first found the article, I think our conversation was really just geared towards. Why you know, we were going back and forth talking about. Like the time that we spend ten and things like that. And it did nothing came to mind as to what could possibly make him do this. I was upset for his mom. I was upset that her life had been taken by her only son, things like that. Don't happen here, and it's very shocking and something that's upsetting happened. Dumbest street from you. Every car comes with its share of stories, the ding in your bumper when universally picked up a first date the luxury package, you got after a big promotion, the mileage you save by riding your bike all summer. I know that I have some French fries lodged underneath my seat. 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Hey, everybody, you have to check out this amazing neutral crime podcast. It's called twenty two hours in American nightmare. It's about a murder that took place in Washington DC, a family and their housekeeper were being held hostage for twenty two hours before being killed when the murder sent their mansion on fire. He'll be shocked by what they went through during those twenty two hours and you won't believe how they found the guy I won't really ending. But all I will say is pizza crust. I'm telling you. It's awesome. Download twenty two hours in American nightmare, now on apple podcasts and podcast. One new episodes every Monday. All right. So you probably notice at some point, we haven't learned that much about Sarah is X mother. And that is because a this is a very new unfolding situation in that a ton is not available and be I mean digitally. No, the reason besides that other than that she's very lucid on the interwebs. Yup. And it's horrible that she has become a victim of probably what's arguably one of the most horrific situations that exist. And it's terrible. But I did go on a internet digging whole mission. And Jack is very proud of me for it because I brief Tron some of my findings earlier and she was like we must discuss. Yeah, well, I think that I mean I need to give Alexis props sometimes for your researching skills, because a lot of these cases that we're doing a little known cases or like this one is just unfolding and it's really hard to find information. You can't pull up Kapiti of page in read it or pull up an article and read it will. It's what happened with last week's episode with Jared, Jared rate episode, by the way Jarod had no idea about some of these things, and he had, you know, he's remembering a story of his passes nine year old friend. Had been murdered by his mother. That's all he really knew. He didn't know any of the particulars because they were in Google lable, and he wasn't going into the newspaper archives, and taking fascinating about Jared's experience in not we're not going to get too deep into this. But the details didn't matter. It was just like the broad strokes that affected him. Right. He didn't need the details to know that it changed him, right? And I thought that was very moving. But thank you guys, because I am proud of these findings because what I learned about Sarah, if you will Sarah Wariner, who is this victim of this horrific incident, you find nothing Sarah and Warriner sixty five years old. She's is mother married to Kenneth Wariner who was her husband lives in Louisiana. But what you can find if you do a background check. Is that she is opened a number of Devier's in her name, which I could leverage to find out what she was doing business wise. So the first thing I found was fascinating it. She owned a business called the worshiping Warrener's or shipping Warrener's. So I go, and then did all these searches on the worshiping Warrener's in the few things like find was on EBay and other auction sites. A few other business registration sites that indicated that the business itself was a videotape for children that was sign language of worship, so you can buy them on EBay only on VHS for like five dollars. So obviously religion was important in this family, and it's not something Kelly new. Yeah. So it was not something Isaac talked about. So it goes beyond that in that. What I thought was really interesting. Is that Sarah and Warner also went by penny as a name penny Werner and. Penelope Warner full name on her background check. But was interesting. I went on Kenneth Warner is father's Facebook. And he has a penny Warriner on his Facebook, which is his sister. So Sarah owns the company, but the business at self is registered in Florida and penny. The sister works there. So they have some agreement where Sarah owns the business may be funds. The business penny works there, I'm not really sure the speculative based on just my digging, so you go beyond that, and you learned that Sarah Ann Warriner has a business registered to her called nanny pennies babysitting. So nanny pennies babysitters is I found an article about them, and it's very religion focused. It says any pennies babysitters is now completing its twelfth season and the destined area with more than nineteen hundred jobs done in twelve short years. In the destiny area is Florida for anyone who's curious. So this leads me to believe that she was living between Texas and Florida where Kenneth Warner's biological sister was living in this business is under her name. So, and I also, if you, if you Google nanny pennies babysitting is picture of the whole group, but Sarah Warner's right in the middle. So I know I'm not wrong and any penny better known as Sarah. Ann Warriner has now become commissioned as a minister through glory of Zion, international ministries, making nannies one of the only professing ministry nanny services in the destiny all those. This is a direct, quote, although small with fifteen Indies, we hear from our clients they think we're the best they feel comfortable and at ease knowing their children are being taken care of by ladies, who love their children and treat them like their own, most of our nannies are teachers daycare, workers church workers, just mothers or grandmothers who love chill. Children. Any pennies will soon expanded Dallas, Texas. This is where the Texas component under Metroplex area as a result of so many vacation in clients living in the park, cities, university area, Dallas. So you guys get the idea. What I did think was interesting, and I'm not gonna go over everything. But she didn't make a point to mention Warriner said that her nannies always make chocolate covered. Pretzels for the parents, right at home or place of babysitting. He's also children. That make thank you cards during arts and crafts time. So that children can write something in them to think their parents for taking them on vacation. So this isn't any service for people who are visiting this area, and I googled further in many wedding websites, that had like, hey here the hotel combinations. Here's the babysit, like here's the knit like if you need babysitters they were mentioned on a ton of things, and there's pictures of Sarah Warner all all over these. So I know I'm not wrong. So what we can deduce from the fact that Sarah and Warriner had many companies one of which was the worshiping Warrener's in the other of which was nanny pennies, essentially religious babysitting. Is that faith was important in this family? But that's something that you have yet to see in the media and Kelly who knew Isaac for number of years, did not know. So I think kill even know that she was a nanny. She knew nothing other than that his mother was very strict. It's interesting that you see that the net. She writes on the in this article the Nancy's operate their services on an organized for activity schedule. I they play balloon volleyball, then they do arts and crafts, then they play games and for their final activity. They watch DVD's and then Sarah says, we all carry ninety penny bags, which consist of bubbles balloons, DVD's, and arts and crafts materials. They say we're like traveling daycare or preschool. So it's very much fragmented there. Sharon, and I just think it's fascinating that maybe it's like I don't know it did take me like an hour to do this. But not that long where it's confusing to me that the reporting. I didn't have anything about her in. They were hundreds of articles like you, guys you guys did you guys have links to the research? There were hundreds of articles and not a thing about her. I saw probably one picture from one news outlet. And that's how I knew I was talking about the right person 'cause I was really doubting myself because this was crazy until I Google these. These businesses are picture. I'm like, okay, I'm not wrong. But why hasn't a single news outlet like all they're doing is riding on the coattails of the click plate of like decapitation. I think it's fucked up. Well, it's, it's what we see all the time is that if the victim is not, you know, a pretty young person. But she's, you know, but that's the thing is that they're not focus on the victim. They're going to focus on the perpetrator. And that's the, the awful thing salacious thing that you could. Yeah. It's all click Beatty. It's gusting. I believe that he's currently in mental facility in Denton where we live. The last thing that I heard was that he was deemed unfit to stand trial, and that he was being relocated to a mental health. This I don't know how he's doing there. I don't know if they've gotten him to stable mental place. I wish I did. I wish I knew you know how everything was going. But I don't I also told that when he was in the police department in Oklahoma where he was arrested and that they, they wanted the Oklahoma police department wanted to expedite getting him back to Texas because he had shoot through his arm. And I don't know how accurate information is. But somebody told me that has mother was schizophrenic. And I know that your early twenties is when it manifests most of the time, and this is like the age where you really start to feel it. I truly think that the schizophrenia the possible schizophrenia, I, I don't know, for sure combined with the head injury that he had from his second DUI. Exacerbated something inside of that caused him to do this. I don't think that doesn't something that he would have done if he was treated for his mental illness, and had had a head injury from a car accident. I think that he would have. You have gone onto with us normal of a life of you can come in for. I don't think that this was. The high school president. College leader turned to capita. His mother allegedly is the story that they're all gonna lead with. I just think it's it's bad storytelling. Because you don't you, you know on top of the fact that being victims advocate. And some of it's always saying we need to put the victims forward. If you're looking from a storytelling perspective, you need to tell about what this person took away in. That's the whole point of of, you know, don't just make these people as victims. And that's it. She just a mother, and that's it. So a lot of these reporters didn't do their due diligence and what I think we can gleam from the re- like the findings that I made is like she made DVD's for. She is she loved God. I feel confident not she loved children. I mean, whether it was babysitting business or creating DVD's for worship. I mean, those are probably two things she really loved his children, and God, and she. Monetize off of it. After Isaac was custody. Police officials said that there is nothing. They could have done to help Warriner since he refused treatment, and he did not indicate he would hurt anybody. Many of his friends spoke to the press about him, and they all felt like something more could have been done to prevent what had occurred with his mom multiple friends hospital personnel, and even Sarah have been trying to get Isaac help and the police that they legally couldn't do anything for him, which is the biggest like question Mark in that. That's the biggest question Mark because it seems like everybody like I said before seems like everybody did everything they could have done legally. Why can the police do anything? What could they have done if anything? So police essentially told Sarah everyone else that their hands are tied, and there was nothing that could be done because he never told the officers that he would hurt anybody. And they kind of just would say, if it happens, again, call us, they did offer him mental health resources and. They said that he declined any help that was offered multiple occasions and the police respond to help, but they wouldn't be able to locate Isaac. So once they were called they were looking, you know, we don't know where he is. We can't do anything. And the media in the media police did confirm that they were aware for months that something just wasn't right with Isaac, and, you know, they were just caught between a rock and a hard place. They didn't know exactly there wasn't really much that they could do. I mean. People are going to write in, and ask they paid her acted him. Could they have? Done stunt something to bring him into a mental institution against his will. The police chief said in this case colonnaded into the most devastating circumstances. And we you know, we're at a point right now where he was saying stuff that he was saying troubling things on social media. But then once once he might have been confronted. He would say now, it's, it's okay and you get into a thing where we are not a, a state, where people, you know, based on what they say you can throw somebody in jail like that can do it, and it also protects. It's very slippery thing. We should probably get into it now. I don't know. I mean, these their civil rights that are being protected with these, these laws that are in place that you can't based on X Y Z throw someone in jail because if the person in power is corrupts it protects someone who's innocent from being thrown in jail, and silo. Silence tourist or. People were like why wasn't something done. It's like because liberties are being protected. We'll then also people could make up. Somebody said so and so like somebody said they wanna kill themselves in their thrown in somebody said that they were going to kill me, and if they never said it, they're straightjacket, suddenly silenced with their on like eighty hour. Hold in their life is ruined, right? Because they missed work, and they have, you know, it's these liberties are very precious. It's funny Kelly, and I were talking about this, and we were thinking that if the police want to do it, if the police we've find reason, and you had three people in the person's life who agreed then that met some criteria, whether it's like three family members agree. We were thinking how could you could go in bully up on? You don't like and your family. I agree there should be some kind of criteria, but it's hard because you're trusting somebody's word over somebody else's word. But the idea that three people would also agree with the. Police three members of a family would also agree with the police is this is obviously as brainstorming and we're not we're not on your brain, storming out there guys. I, I go out there, but there must be some, like, if, if you're married, for example, if a spouse, if a family member, that's not your spouse, and like someone at your I don't know a friend, someone not blood related conspire conspire than you. You can't even put a number on that. Even if you put a number at fifty than anybody could conspire to, to be able. Is there? I'm just saying there's gotta be something devil's advocate. I would love for either of you to come up with something better fucking, and I it was giant, Jack always makes fun of my ideas. But I'm like the first idea is meant to be sculpted in honed in like. The first is supposed to be wild because creativity is good. And then it's supposed to be like dialed down and she's like, that's the worst ideal ever originally going to be a clown. I agree was my idea. Wasn't. It was both of our ideas. Right after months of Billy thinks it was his idea. Oh sane. You weren't even there after this is happening. We're Billy was sitting when we came up with it, and you're standing right there. But this is what happens to this is what happened. Yes. You know, this is what happened. You said, you want to podcast on with me, and I said, yeah, but it needs it needs something. What, what is the what is the podcast? What is it? You guys went back and huddled and then you came up with the idea, and then he came back at me, and I said later. Alexis and I wanted to start a podcast with Dave Navarro. You're listening. We're still your case. Also. I. Okay. This isn't a mad. But I literally just found out like five minutes ago that we hit ten thousand followers on Instagram. And if you've been following us, you know, that I said, when we hit ten k I'd open up our first degree merge store. So it's up. Go click the Lincoln, our first degree bio, and get your hands on some first rematch that I design myself. So is ecstatic Kenneth has come up a couple of times, so far and what I will say is that. Everything I'm about to tell you is depressing. So brace yourselves for that. But as we mentioned in the intro, they were divorced for ten years, Kenneth, and Sarah in he at the time in presumably, now lives in Louisiana. And as everyone could imagine he was horrified to learn the news of what had happened to his ex wife at the hands allegedly of his son, and on the heels of this horrible news, he'd been alerting relatives and friends across the country. What had happened and these alerts were happing primarily in Florida, as my detective skills, brought me to Florida and that's where most of them are. And she was working there a lot in Louisiana as well as Texas. So he told the media in an interview that his son had suffered a mental breakdown months prior to the incident, and that Sarah had allowed him to stay with her after his most recent rehabilitation stay it's worth mentioning that in college. He was an RA. He was living in a dorm. So he had been living separately from his mother. He graduated was having these issues and after his. Most recent rehabilitation stay for his breakdown. His mother allowed him to live with her. He was also being prescribed at this time psychotic drugs to try to help, but his father observed, that it didn't seem to work. Kenneth also noted in this particular interview that he had seen his son about a week prior to the incident, but he didn't elaborate on the circumstances of that meeting. So another Robin got down is that. His father posted immediately after the incident, the Facebook post from Isaac's father said, I must regretfully inform you that Isaac has committed a heinous crime. Please pray for him that he may regain his mental faculties. So I do wanna talk about this for a second, his father, posted this, and the post was disturbing because you see a man in pain, but what was more disturbing were the comments, and it was literally means of lions memes, and gifts of chainsaws, only, God and articles about, like it was the most. Devastating thing you guys look Facebook right now every post about this every post Isaac has ever made is like met with means about chainsaws, and like. In what's even more. Disturbing is father posted something religious like forgive him. He knew not what they do in response to this horrible. Trolling. And the person was like, I'm so sorry, sir. You don't have to read my head off the most horrible, and it's is wrong with people, I was horrified because this is not only knew okay? This guy is dealing with the fact that he's and I don't know if we mentioned this Kenneth and Sarah based on Ken, this Facebook seem to be on good terms. Yeah. They were divorced for ten years, but they seem to be cool. And the idea that people would post on somebody's personal Facebook under a post, about, just like expressing such pain in sadness really upset me. And it's I don't know what in even when he expressed additional sadness at the comments for people to respond with more like literally just puns, really distasteful remarks that was actually under a little compassion. What happens is that? I see this a lot so people go to somebody's Facebook page when this happens and they post, there's no way to post simply on their wall. You have to comment they comment on the last post and also so because people are commenting on what of his posts, which is about Beto releasing five trillion dollars plan to commit to combat climate crisis. Which, by the way, I know we talk about serial killers crimes everything climate crisis is the apps. Loot most terrifying. And biggest and that's going on right now on the planet. It's going to kill us. All we don't do anything about it. You know, somebody writes demonic possession get out of here. He was a spoiled little crazy liberal. I hope he rots in hell and people are. Yeah. And you've got people posting, you know, all of this sort of, like hateful stuff. And. You know, a crazy fuck asked. Like you would support better Iraq and killer, rotten hell is another one. You've got a lot of people that are just, you know, why are nine hundred seventeen of you still friends with this person, you should unfriendly this person, you know, there's just a lot of, of things going on. There's one person that actually said that it on every one of his other posts, you see comments like. He had posted on April, thirtieth President Trump has made more than ten thousand false and misleading claims than the comment on there was, but he never killed into capitated his mother, you sick liberal loon. And you started going. You started going. Yeah. This is not the thing to do. His family was always just ten talking about his mom, I don't exactly what his relationship with his play, you know, no matter what his dad did or didn't do for him. He would still never think that you are signed would go on to this, and Tim coasting and asking for prayers and not just why it's mom. But for I, I think that, that shows a level of compassion, and he wasn't met back with that. I think when people post things on the internet. They don't realize what they're doing. And they think that people when they when they see the article, and they see the shock value of what he did all compassion in their brain turns off, every out of carrying that they have just goes away, and they see monster. It would read the article taking the information and then move on, because readings are common and reading through those things really upsetting me he's awaiting transfer to a mental health facility as we know today. Right. And essentially, as mentioned earlier is that the EMI the DA and the police department were talking to each other about the evidence to decide whether or not to file additional charges. So obviously we were dealing with all the charges relating to the high speed chase. Tampering with evidence abuse of a corpse. That's he's been indicted on murder and everything else is still up in the air because they're like, who knows in. That's why not a ton of valuable about what happened at the crime scene. Not a ton of available probably about Sarah about, you know, we know about Isaac from our first degree. We don't know but Isaac necessarily from the media other than just like the broad strokes of what he was doing in college. When a case like this is unfolding. It is important to preserve the integrity of the evidence of the investigation, so we were lucky enough to find what we had, we don't think anything we aired really matters of than to just trying to delve into what could have happened and try to, you know, speculate as to how and why somebody like Isaac who seem to be on a trajectory towards greatness, ended up here. Still makes me incredibly sad to think somebody who I spent every day at least a little time every day. My senior high school list, who and spoke at my graduation, somebody who spent my college or intention with, and I'm not very, very sentimental per fun. I. I keep pictures and things and you know, stuff like that from memory and even though I fell out with a friend, even if it's a bad falling out, I would still if they came to me and asked me to help them or us to reconcile or whatever I always say, yes, and it's a it's a phone sometimes. And so the fact that somebody who was my friend who I considered a friend did, this is just heartbreaking to me, because it is it did happen in my hometown, happened, just somebody was friends with who I never would have thought would have done this. All right, guys. So turn up your lights and you can turn down your anxiety. What did we learned today? So I think what we learned today and I'll start, and I'm sure we have our opinions on this, because this is unusual and that normally we know a lot more about investigation. Yeah. But I think even if you don't know that much in this situation, you know, for sure that Isaac was smart accomplished in very much loved, despite his Radic behavior, because his behavior change drastically and people who loved him and his life, observed that. And really try to do something about it and. I, I don't know what, you know, the police said it's like we couldn't have done anything differently, but is that true? And maybe it is, you know, I keep thinking about keep getting flashbacks to the John Lewis episode right? Yeah. That we did. Because here was a guy that was on top of the world. He was on a he had just finished up a major TV show. He was an actor. He was smart. He was writing a book. He had everything going for us to date, Katy Perry. You know, he was like highlight. And he was just, you know, like a, a looking kit in Hollywood that was working, which you don't get often. And you know he had everything going for him. And then he started to spiral and the police did get involved because he was breaking the law. He was attacking people. He was punching people at a yogurt shop, and, and doing all these things and he was being thrown in jail, and even even all of that he gets out of jail. And then does something horrific and then murders his his landlady and then kills himself. So you know as much as you're thinking. Oh, well, you know, something could have been something could have been done a lot of times. There's just is just nothing that could be done, and we still don't know what happened with him. Was it a head injury or was it late onset schizophrenia? And I think also there are a lot. There are other cases where a lot more could have been done. I think from what we have seen people. Tried tried the authorities tried within their legal bounds of what they could do and still. Something korva Kappend. So it's like even if you do all the thing, all the right things, sometimes it doesn't matter. Right. And I think for people though, it's like, okay, literally, he was posting suicidal techs suicidal tweets and Facebook posts. He was cutting himself. And then I think I mean in this happened only four days before the call from the nurse to the police when he had threatened to kill his mother happened four days before, and the police are just always like, you know, when we go there, no one's there known answers the door. But if there's twelve calls, you would think that it would it least I mean, there'd be some sort of system to track the calls this not twelve calls from the same person in emergent situation. So how do you assess the severity of the situation, unless there's some algorithm, in its computer? I don't know. But the idea that they could compound it. This is a big deal. But one call at a time. It's not like they didn't realize it. No, of course because there's no way to track that I mean like I said, like unless there's technology that could track. Hey, updates to police reports where you're marking how how many times somebody's calling? I don't know how they would because just based on staffing and human error in one of the things that is so heartbreaking about this is that listen, three times as many people kill themselves as our bird. The suicide suicide is about forty five thousand per year, compared to fifteen thousand murders and would this have been taken more seriously if he was making threats against other people as opposed to making threats against himself and. How do we deal as a society? How are we dealing with people that are making self-harm threats? That's my big takeaway, here, is that if this guy had said, I'm going to shoot up a school, or I'm going to do this, or that, I think, you know, something more could have been done as opposed to I'm going to hurt myself. I mean, the final call. I'm going to kill my mother, but she I think was very involved in his care and probably maybe I mean, she was at the hospital and then went and picked him up. Maybe she was like, no he's not because it's I don't want him committed. It's her little boy. I mean it's the last trying to not make excuse. She also she's wants to protect them. She doesn't want him in, in in. It's just so. Mental illness. It's so hard to deal with, and we don't even know if that's the case or not. But it certainly certainly seems like I don't remember. And expressing that he had mental health issues. I don't ever remember him saying. Dealing with the site of mental illness, don't ever remember him expressing. Negative feeling. I think that he had now looking back. It seems that he had bottled everything up somewhere along the line. He was failed, and it's incredibly upsetting to know that not only his mother, but friends from college learned that he was going through things and try to help him and she didn't get the help that he needed he's committed. And unspeakable is just uncomprehending crime and taking a life and not only gonna life, but she can alight his mother, who was his sole provider and caregiver and the person who gave him his life. I saw a lot of comment thing death penalty. And you know. In just life sentence. Put him, you know, fry or you know, a lot of people who are being really, really hard in comments on articles on Facebook and other places like that. And that's heartbreaking to me. I think that. In this lake climate, we're mental illness is heavily talked out. I think that this situation need to be brought to light in the sense that. It wasn't him. And I am I don't wanna say championing for him because that's not the right word because I do want his mom to get, you know, her her piece, but I don't think that she would want her son to rot in prison where he doesn't get the help that he need because clearly she did want him to get help. She tried to get him help. Sara, obviously love children, love, God, love, her son. There's little vailable, but what we can gleam is that in Kelly, even said they seem to have a good relationship this seemed strange, and I think one of the most important things is like if take every precaution, if a loved one is exhibiting just bizarre out of character behavior, and whatever precaution means that's at your discretion. You know, it's like, I don't know every case is different every disorders different difficult time or mental illnesses different. If you sent someone's being erotic, anything's possible, so take precautions to everything you can even if you wanna call up the suicide prevention hotline, because that's where most of this stuff goes to, you don't know what to do, call the suicide prevention hotline, it's I'll give you the number. It's one eight hundred two seven three eight two five. Five and they're open twenty four hours a day, and they've got their staffed up there. It doesn't have to be you. They will give you advice on what one on how to help somebody else. Right. I think one of the things that really. Made me send us to you was one of my friends made a comment on Facebook in between all of the comments of electric chair penalty. You know, give him the same fate as his mom things like that. That are just really disturbing. A French made a comment and was like this is somebody who I remember being very kind very funny, very outgoing very open. He was just like parading for people to meet this with kindness and meet this situation with compassion, instead of hatred, and the first degree was the first thing that I thought of I was like I can really speak for him. And try to speak for his mental illness, and hopefully show that he, he didn't start out this way. He wasn't always a terrible percent. I just I don't want him to always being onus on star. I mean, Kelly was so we FaceTime with her rights before we started recording. And she Kelly Smith expressed this incredible gratitude for sharing the story because they're all reeling this happened a month ago and they're like, they're portraying him as a monster when really he was like crying out for help in the system is broken in. That's all she wanted to convey, everybody has compassion for Sarah. Everyone is devastated by what is it did? Legislated, allegedly did under whatever circumstances that are unknown. But like everyone side, Sarah, something horrible happen to her, of course, but she's also grateful that like he wasn't. I mean she seeing his Facebook and stuff, and it must be just devastating with what we addressed with the names in the troll. So that's all it is. It's, it's really sad. But Kelly, we thank you so much. Thank you so much. And I think she found out a bus because she's a big main fan and Jared, Monaco fan and maintain to is she does. It's so Kyoto cute. I love when our worlds collide. It's amazing. Thank you, Kelly. Yeah. And if you guys are connected to a murder, or other stranger than fiction story. Please write us. Hello at the first Greek podcasts dot com. We got to emails as we're recording tonight. Or hit us up on Instagram at first degree out, Alexis linkletter ability center at Jack van Leyden door DM's, no story is too small, or too insignificant for us to reelect Streep will dig and do a personal background check and find all the things she can do a background check so don't resent. That's got that software. I've looked up. Look this person, no problem, I generated report and it to her, listen, I did it at liars psychopath. So I need to know I send it to her and may Vanik in a group chat. And we all examine the documents together way sign off. Yes. Because one on me before you asked me to do the podcast. No. But I might have done one just for fun fences. Interesting. I've announcement I just found out that my, my. Which you guys haven't read yet, by the way. Waiting for digital the hard, the hard copy is going to have an exclusive first addition with a really cool map as the end papers. So I thought that post you have to go go on Amazon, or, or your local bookstore, but really just probably just going on. And I will be announcing a book tour, and it's going to start thirteen of all of us in some way. No, the people. Dr crime. Con doctor had really. Crime. Con didn't realize that somebody jokes. I have an announcement. Oh, we're just gonna all we can go around and wait for my. On announcement, but we have been trying to figure out what we want to name our listeners, and we need some suggestions, and I made a post Facebook asking for suggestions. We've gotten a few one of them was the owls, not that that's, that's like a deep, deep cut should be like, that's like, gee, chief people are those are the super fans. We got the temps like degrees in temperature the temptations is not bad temptations. The first sees I sees the worst and the degrees. We need some this against beginning of brainstorm sash, but we need a name for our listeners so we can like you can like. Ask them. Yeah. Yeah. And I was thinking in the original, brainstorm in Jack always mix of my first idea, even though it's brilliant is like something about, like not, like ninety eight degrees, but like something where it's like we're talking about the temperature of hot our fans our listeners sorry we don't have fans. Definitely not me. I only have anti fans except for the people in our Facebook group who always coat about Fermi, which, I really appreciate the do. They're the owls the OG owls are where it's. Okay. I think we're done we're done. We've had enough in. You've all had enough puppy, tropical drinks day. Thanks. To dead. I may Donahue with an AP news minute the military's as to US service members were killed in Afghanistan details weren't released, but it happened today after secretary of state. Mike Pompeo was in Afghanistan. My condolences certainly go out to, to, to to them and praying for them for their families, and for for all the soldiers that were around them. The date has been set for Robert Muller to go to Capitol Hill to a beer for four two house committees about his Russia report. It's July seventeenth President Trump promised veto, it's fate is uncertain in the Senate. A house passed an emergency border aid package to help migrant families and unaccompanied children. This is Texas Republican Kay Granger. The Bill before us, does not provide immigration and customs enforcement, the department of defense are the immigration course with the funds. They need President Trump's son. Eric says the US secret service took an employee of Chicago. Cocktail lounge into custody after she spit on him. I'm Ed Donahue.

Isaac Isaac Warriner Sarah Denton Texas Kelly Smith Facebook officer Jack Fiona president Google Alexis linkletter WalMart Isaac Warriner Chloe Morita Billy Johnson Oklahoma Isaac Wariner Isaac Warrener Isaac van
BTK: Episode 100

The First Degree

1:11:06 hr | Last month

BTK: Episode 100

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production now available on Apple podcasts podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast. Owning my own business, it is so overwhelming trying to deal with a million different things at once, but one of our sponsors nets. We is a game changer so smart companies run on net suite by Oracle, the world's number, one cloud business system, and with net sweet you'll have visibility and control of your financial each our inventory ecommerce and more everything. You need all in one place so whether you're doing a million or hundreds of millions in sales net sweet lets you manage every penny with precision. You'll have the agility to compete with anyone work from. From anywhere and run your whole company right from your phone to over twenty thousand companies who trust net sweet to make it happen, and that's sweet surveyed hundreds of businesses and leaders, and assembled a playbook of the top strategies they're using America reopens for business. Sir Receive Your Free Guide. Seven actions businesses need to take now and schedule your free product tour at net sweet dot com slash first degree. Get Your Free Guide and schedule your free product tour right now at net sweet dot com slash first degree. That's nuts dot com slash I agree. degree. Degree agree. I. The first degree. Supposed to have movies. Massive massive control. They're not insane at all. They do insane things, but they're not insane. And so they have massive control, and they're capable of keeping families and keeping jobs, and the those are the guys that are screamingly dangerous because they don't get caught. They only get caught because like. DNA people have been looking and hunting for thirty or forty years, and that's why they're not getting caught. Because they they they don't ramp to the level of the Bundy or something like they. They have control. Welcome to the first degree true crime podcast that you might end up on. My Name Is Jack Van. I'm sitting far away from Alexis Lindgren far away from Billy Johnson? And today is such an important episode of the first degree, because it is our one hundredth episode, we made it to one hundred is. I'm not sure how did it, but here we are on the other side of one hundred zero hat. How did we never miss an episode? I don't know how we've made it through with all of our episodes on time except for I, think one was a little bit late. One was like six hours late, but even if it's just like two hours late because there's other people involved in this process, it was then delayed like half a day, but honestly no one cared. It was during the Kovic shutdown. What do you like walking watches waiting for just drop? I don't think so. Give us fine. You got it on the right day. What are you GonNa? What what can we do, yeah? I'm really excited about today's episode. Because for today's landmark one hundredth episode, we have something very very very special, very kind of big Q or Josh for all of you, and we are so excited about it and I don't want to spoil it, so not give any more away, but you guys are going to be stoked on today's first degree. Before we jump into the episode, we have something very important and that is. What is the day billy? National Gummy Worms Day Oh my God. No, no veil. Try again. There's better ones. National respect candidate and I certainly respect candidate now more than ever more than ever, but that also, wasn't it? There is a there is one I'm staring here billy that you're not getting to. National pet fire safety day. Because it's a dog. No. dorte. National Orange Chicken Day. ooh rights. I ll general sows June I just love like a classic orange. Chicken from Panda Express. I mean I probably should never eat that and I haven't eaten it in probably fifteen years, but but there's just why do I like it? Boy? Do I crave it when I was you. Know. Let me. Say this. You probably have had it because I know the way that you like to eat, you've probably gone. You know how at some balls that they will have somebody with a sample and you love you love just like a little nibble. You've probably had it within the last fifteen years I. Probably have in. You know what is not going to happen anymore samples, and that really grinds my gears because all I do want is one piece of Orange Chicken and now I'm bummed because I'm going to have to buy a whole me also well. That's enough of that. So, let's turn down the lights. And turn up your anxiety. Because this could be you. Today's case brings us back to January fifteenth of Nineteen, Seventy Four, and if you're listening to this episode, Live on Release Day, we can tell you. It's been exactly forty six years six months and eleven days since a significant day, the movie blazing saddles was in theaters and songs time in a bottle by Jim Crow Chee and the joker by Steve Miller band were topping the charts and the setting for today's case Wichita Kansas. That's the largest city in the state of Kansas and the. LARGEST, city in the United States. Geographically speaking Wichita is located in south. Central Kansas. Nestled against the Arkansas River. In Wichita birthplace of both pizza hut and white castle, making a fast food wonderland of sorts. And another thing that this fine city produced the outlaw. Will Bonnie also known as billy the kid? which saw Kansas has many suburban neighborhoods, the kind of neighborhoods that are perfect for raising a family and that's exactly where Joseph. Otero and his wife Julie planted their roots in decided to raise their children. This family consisted of thirty. Eight Year Old Dad Joseph. Thirty four year, old mom, Giulio Tarot and the Otero children, nine year, old Joseph junior eleven year old Josephine, thirteen year olds Carmen, fourteen year old Danny and fifteen year old Charlie. It's a big wonderful family name on this particular morning of January fifteenth, Matriarch. Julie Woke her children for school at around seven am. The older kids were running late and left school with their dad at seven fifty a m. As Joseph was pulling out of the family's garage to leave driving his children. His son Charley started to close the garage door as the car was pulling out. But Joseph stopped him and told him to leave it open because he was returning right after he drove kids to school, so charlie obliged. She listened to his dad. He got back in the car and off. They went. Sculpture proceeded as normal for the kids and at the end of the day the three older children. Walked tone. And it's not clear whether the children normally walk home, but we do know is at the time. The Otero family only had one working vehicle because there other car had been in an accident and it was at the shot being repaired. When the kids got home, they couldn't open the front door, so Danny went around to the back, and he tried to get the back door open, but that was locked to so danny goes back around to the front of the House, and he somehow manages to unlock the front door. Once they were inside the first thing that children saw was the contents of their mom's purse spilled out onto the living room floor. They look to the kitchen and they see their father's wallet on the Stove. A child's lunchbox was on the kitchen table josephina Joseph Juniors winter coats were on the living room, couch, and an open loaf of bread, a knife and several jars of sandwich spread were on the kitchen table. Some of the pieces of the bread were slathered with Mayo, and some weren't, and it was kind of as if somebody had been interrupted when they're making their sandwiches, and there was also a gallon of milk left out next to the kitchen sink. Next to the half made sandwiches. There was an open can of Pairs. One of the chairs at the kitchen table was pulled out. And there was a pair of men's shoes under the chair. The three kids knew something was just off, and they walked around looking for a sign of either their mom. Their Dad or they're two younger siblings. They went upstairs towards the master bedroom. And that's where they made a horrifying discovery. They saw their parents lifeless bodies. The frantic children attempted to cut the rope from around their mom's neck and the ropes around their father's wrists. They removed the gag from their MOM's mouth with a set of toenail clippers and tried to revive her. Danny then went to get a knife to try to cut the ropes off of his father's hands. And there was also a belt around his father's throat, which loosened and he then tried to revive him. But his father's chest was just very stiff. Danny ran to the phone to call for help. But when he picked up the receiver at the line is dead. So we started out of the house, found neighbor, and they called the police. When the police arrived at the scene, it was three forty pm, and they were met by Charlie. Who was just completely distraught? He told him that his parents were inside. There were in their bedroom and they were tied up. The police told us three children to stay outside and stay calm and try to comfort them. Please entered the home. and. It was neat orderly. The only thing out of place that stuck out to them initially was this. person the floor in his wallet on the Stove, and obviously these things in the kitchen, which made it seem like somebody had been interrupted making lunch for these children. Officers moved through the house towards the master bedroom. They. Push the door open at approached shows, if senior who is clearly deceased and lying on the floor of the master bedroom. There is and moved to a piece of white rope and a large butcher knife that laid next to him. Julia. Tara, was on the bed. Her legs were hanging off the side, slightly bent. Julia was wearing jeans a housecoat. Her feet were bound the ankles. She'd indentations around her neck, and there was one piece of rope tied to the north corner of the bed. There was blood around her nose and around her mouth. Neither Julia or Joseph had a pulse. Julie's hands were still tied behind her back, and there was a white gag rules to her head, which was stained with her blood. And when Charlie Danny and Carmen their three children were questioned by arriving officers. They told them that they lived at this home with their parents in there too little siblings, Josephine and Joseph Junior and they didn't know where they were. The older siblings became distraught over the idea of having to tell the babies of the family that their parents had been killed, but that was something that they'd never actually have to do. Because the reality of the nightmare that was unfolding in real time that morning was about to get so much worse than anyone on the scene could have imagined. Inside the home, one of the officers was attempting to clear the house room by room, making sure the perpetrator who attacked Julian Joseph senior word no longer on the premises. And it's in an upstairs bedroom that this officer Shirley made one of the most horrific and haunting discoveries of his entire life. Through me entered was clearly the bedroom of two children, there were bunk beds and boys toys everywhere. And in the center of the floor, was the lifeless body of Joseph Otero, junior he was wearing his school close a long sleeved button up shirt, jeans and socks. And, we are going to describe his injuries because Joseph Junior was nine years old, and we're not here to describe injuries inflicted on children, gratuitous or detail. But it wouldn't be long before. Four horrifying discovery in this home was about to be made. As the search of the home continued. What are the officers descended the stairs to the basement. And it was there that they found the body of eleven year old Josephine. Like the case of Joseph Junior rocketed, discuss her injuries or the circumstances under which her life was cruelly taken. As News, the massacre spread to say the community was shocked. Devastated horrified doesn't begin to describe the kind of impact. A crime like this has on a neighborhood. And many of the most grizzled police officers will never see examples of such cruelty across thirty year careers. The Tara home was seals off and law. Enforcement set up a command post an old school across the street from the House. It was revealed that the families Brown nineteen sixty eight Vista cruiser station wagon was missing from the garage, but it was found later that same day in the parking lot of a grocery store. Then the search for the person who slaughtered this family commenced. In the thing is. Is that no one on the scene that day? Realize that this search would be one that would stretch over more than three decades, because the murder of his family be the first four murders of ten that terrorized and continue to haunt the suburbs of Wichita Kansas to this day. The Otero Homa searched for evidence and processed, and here's what they found. All four members of the Otero family had died by fixation as a result of strangulation. The phone lines had been cut to eliminate the risk of one of the victims calling for help. None of the victims have been raped, but there was semen on the floor of the basement near where Josephine was found. Nothing evaluates missing and the police believed trophies were likely to be taken from the scene, but it was really hard to be sure at the time. And bindings and gags were used during the. The police worked to flesh out the killers mo in this case. But hindsight is twenty twenty. Looking from today, we can see the patterns. But at the Otero case, there wasn't an established mo yet because this was a serial killers, first taste of murder. But with each kill this killers mo would become more and more defined. Bindings were used to restrain the victims. Torture? Victims were killed over long periods of time. And tormented throughout the experience. Both psychologically and with physical pain. And then finally kill. Their lives choked out of them by officiation. The perpetrator in this case was an is killer. Made evident by the fact, that clear planning went into the ambush of this family. The cutting of the phone lines. Bring binoculars with him to the scene. Tactical approach which allowed him to get them under his control. This color would eventually name himself be T, K A killer motivated by sexual sadism. And while none of his victims were sexually penetrated, we know that killing aroused him proven by the fact that there was semen found in the basement of the Otero home near Josephine's body. PT K had an obsession with bondage. All of his victims were killed by strangulation except for one, and that was only because he was interrupted during the Commission of the Act. Joseph Junior Joseph Senior Julie and Josephine would be the first known victims of one of the most, if not the most terrifying serial killers in modern history. Dennis Rader the K. I man who didn't care who the victim was didn't care. What sex victim was. A manual blamed his depraved crimes on an indescribable force. He called factor X. A man who killed ten people over the course of decades while maintaining the image of a loving father, a church Deacon, a Dogcatcher a boy, Scout, leader, and a doting husband, so how I mean really, how can someone capable of crime so unspeakable actually maintain a perceived sense of normalcy. How can a dichotomy like this exist? I mean really exist within one person. To answer that who better to help us deconstruct the mind of Dennis Rader then one of his own children. Meet our first degree Dennis Raiders Daughter Carrie. I mean my dad was pretty much. My best friend so I did everything with him I garden with Him we took walks with the dogs. We were very very close I was much closer to him than my mom and a lot of ways I pretty much that I couldn't be a boy scout. That was like the one thing I couldn't do temper like. New My parents are new. My family before my dad's arrest knew that he treated us really well that he was like an upstanding guy in the community. And you know they were all in shock. This ashes, just anybody that's not us after that are like. Don't necessarily believe us, but we were really close like we he. My Dad really likes to be outdoors. He would take fishing and camping and my mom. My mom hates the outdoors. She's only outside to go to our car literally like she hates outdoors so I don't even know how they ended up married. They're like it in, but he from when I was tiny like there's photos of fishing like he anything he was doing. He took me and my older brother Long. Raise me basically like a tomboy. Why one of the reasons I'm really strong? He taught me to be strong think he knew maybe things would catch up with him eventually, but he raised me to be very strong and a lot of ways. Carey was born in Park, city Kansas in nineteen, seventy eight, which was four years after her father started. And from Carey's perspective, she was raised by two loving parents, and how to generally healthy childhood. And Ascari, said she and her dad had one of those really special bonds, and they ended up sharing these interests that even carries. Mom didn't approve of that. They kind of kept between that I had grown up reading Stephen King, loving him sharing him with my dad like we would watch all the movies together. We would pass the books back before and I'm not talking about like. My teenage years or my doll years I'm saying like by the time I was like. Ten or eleven I was reading Stephen King like my mom didn't like it and my dad deny it was. There was something we shared. And like other like. Like kiss the girls and you know. We went and saw seven together just to explain some of our relationship. So like I think my dad in hindsight was trying to tell me a little bit about himself, but he also like appreciated that I like that stuff with him, but I think he was also trying to educate me. Prepare me. In two thousand five carry learn that the man she knew as dad. Was One of the world's most notorious sexual thrill killers and modern history. And to remain silent on the subject for nearly fifteen years. She avoided the media and worked tirelessly to process the absolutely consuming trauma. That this information brought onto her. While the pain that followed was varied and vast over the years. There's one particular aspect of carries experience that remains ever frustrating. I get pushed back a lot from the detective that I'm still close to he. He Win I'm having a hard time. I'll reach out. We don't talk very often. But he he likes to remind me he'll say flat out. Your Dad was never your dad every day of your life. That's a lie and thanks buddy like not what I need right now. Dude, so if you talk to criminologists, you talked to detectives. You know FBI and stuff. They're all very hardened. and. The thing is flight. They get it wrong and people even like the really highly educated hardened ones. They don't believe me. I don't think people want except that. Somebody could be so good at times and also be so bad they can't. They can't and even like the criminologist. They refused to believe it. And so somebody like the detective argues he was showing you what he thought that looked like, but that he didn't actually have empathy, and he didn't have loved. And there's and because he's a sexual sadistic psychopath. They're saying he can't love and I'm saying he can do both. In the world of criminal profiling for many decades, there were certain aspects of serial offenders that were thought to be universally shared amongst them characteristics that were rarely, if ever deviated from, we've seen this in the concept of serial killers ability to stop killing victims, and for a long time. It was thought that they couldn't stop once they started. This was considered fact when it came to the world of psychology and profiling serial killers, but in the last two decades we've seen one example after the next, or these assumptions are shattered leaving profiler, scratching their heads, and rewriting the books, another assumption and one we're. We're looking at very closely today. Is this all or nothing concept of empathy or in the case of serial? Killers lack thereof, they say a man can't be a sociopath, and also at the same time feel genuine love compassion for members of his family. The question here is, is it arrogant to believe that with all of the incredible nuance that exists within the human brain the week and determined with absolution that we know how Dennis rader brain works could Dennis rader be one of the first serial killers who defies generalization? We assign a serial killers well. There's only one way to answer that question. To go back to the beginning. Dennis Rader was born on March ninth of forty five, and he was born to William and Dorothea. Raider and he was the oldest of four children. He was born in Pittsburgh. Kansas but he grew up in Wichita proper. He attended riverview school and later graduated from Wichita Heights High School. And when people look back and study the childhood of serial killers, they're really searching for indicators of trauma that could explain how and why. The wires got crossed in their adolescent brain, but sometimes there's just no satisfying answer to be found. Here's the thing. He has three younger brothers. My uncles are amazing. His parents Felon Tortilla I was very close to them like they were amazing. Grandparents raised all of us grandkids. We did a ton of stuff together. You know they're I, can't personally find anything there, but then my dad hints that things like again. Is he just making crap up? My Dad has read so much. Like before he was arrested, and after about people like him, you takes like my dad admired h h holmes and wanted to build like something like homes. So, we're like Jack the. Ripper like my dad was obsessed with these people. So the thing is if you, my dad has read so much. Sometimes, he gets his own wires cross. What's him what somebody else? My Dad's hinted some things like. My Dad said that he watched my his grandparents out in the country in Kansas. Kill, some chickens for dinner and that Attorney Mon- when he was like four and everybody's like I don't think a four year old will be turned on by some chickens. Traumatized. But like you know to me, it seems like either. It's bullcrap. Or basically on some poetry and things, my dad's hinted at my says that maybe he was sexually abused by like a distant relative or stranger. Would he was little? That's because he was separated quite a while from his parents. Over the summer. My grandma was working. I think and so there was that opportunity there? I mean unfortunately everybody that we know is dead and my dad's thought talking. My Dad would never never cop to being. Abused or being weak. And so something could have happened. My Dad doesn't even know, but. I, I've tried. I've Gone I've looked at things I've tried I can't find it. At while there may be nothing concrete raiders formative years. Once, he was a little older he did. Engage in some of the telltale criminal activities. The tend to escalate within future serial offenders. But he says he was basically looking being a peeping. Tom Stealing underwear. You know looking at looking at like those detective magazines. They had in the forties that were really graphic. You know even like the ones where people were actually being murdered in the photographs like he so he was a young kid, somehow exposed to that so like. Where did he get those magazines? You know plus it was the fortieth, so he was allowed to run around and do what emory wanted. Nobody was keeping an eye on it. And so some I don't know where he got the magazines up. I was going to say by the time you ten or twelve. He was doing breaking and entering like into his old school he sets. It's worth mentioning even if something had been overtly or clearly wrong, Dennis Rader as a kid pied today's standards. The forties and fifties were such different. Time back then you were either crazy enough to be put into an insane asylum or not. Awareness about more subtle traits of mental illness back then. was basically nonexistent. Now days. If somebody was doing what my dad was doing, we would call it a conduct disorder and they would. They'll get help, or they would be put in Juvie right. It just escalate because no one. Because Dr Nobody was aware and they were, they were stained are non insane. They have massive massive control or not insane at all. They do insane things, but they're not in insane. And so they have massive control, and are capable of keeping families and keeping jobs, and the those are the guys that are extremely dangerous because they don't get caught. They only get caught because like. DNA! People have been looking and hunting them for thirty or forty years, and that's why they're not getting caught. Because they they they don't ramp up to the level of abundance or something like they. They have control. Nine hundred fifty seven demonstrator was confirmed into the Zion Lutheran Church and following his high school graduation he enlisted in the air force and served from nineteen, sixty six to nineteen seventy. And it's becoming less and less surprising to hear that serial killers have spent time in the military, but it does make sense. You're trained to think tactically. You're taught to be regimented militant and to be careful, and you're also taught how to inflict violence so later in a serial killer career Dennis Rader took impeccable notes, and the reason behind this is up for debate, but it's one example of his precision, his malicious nature characteristic, except bled into his murders into his Mo and Dennis Rader was stationed around the world, including countries like Greece Turkey, Japan and South Korea. By nineteen seventy-one Dennis Rader was back in Kansas and he lived at sixty two twenty independence in park city. He worked in the Meat Department at a place called leakers where his mother worked as a bookkeeper. A May twenty second nineteen seventy-one Dennis rader married politics, who was a former classmate of raiders from high school, and at the time she's working as a secretary at the local hospital. Later that same year he enrolled at Butler. County Community College. In nineteen seventy two raider left his job at leakers to work for the Coleman Company a business that produced camping gear as an Assembler. And a glass? This job seems pretty menial, but the significance of this particular job wouldn't be known. Until decades later when rader was outed as bt K., because two two women who worked there would become victims to. When you think about it, a crime is kind of like a puzzle. Each connection helps reveal the big picture, and it's such a thrill to put it all together. That's why we listened to true crime podcast, and when I'm not thinking about true crime or working on our podcast, my brain still craves a challenge, and that's why I love best fiends, so best means is unique and exciting puzzle game, unlike any others out there and best means updates the game monthly with new levels events, so it literally never gets old. Best means really treats the game. Game like service for their players. My favorite thing about best fiends, as there's so many Q. and colorful characters. It's so fun, but it still is also giving your brain a challenge and don't take it for me. You can search our facebook group because the first. These are obsessed so best. FIENNES has thousands of levels already with new levels, events and characters added every month. It's hours of fun. Right at your fingertips, and you can even play offline with over one hundred million downloads and tons of five serve us. Best fiends is a must play. 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Pretty Litter monitors your cats health by changing colors. When it detects potential underlying issues, you won't find that kind of innovation conventional litter, so get the world's smartest litter without leaving home by visiting pretty letter dot, com and use the Promo. Code First Degree for twenty percents off your order. That's pretty littered dot com and use our code first degree for twenty percent off pretty litter dot com promo. Code I agree. By nineteen, seventy-three finished up his time at Butler. Community College with an associate's degree electronics. And then he had at Wichita State University. After graduating with a degree in criminal justice. Irony. Reader left his job at the Coleman. Company began working at Adt. Now. Adt Is the security company I'm sure you've heard about across many podcasts. At Adt, he held several positions including installation manager, which means he would have to go into people's houses and set up. All of the equipment. And it's believed that he learned how to defeat home security systems while they're. While his time at the Coleman Company was now over. It seemed that Raider still kept an eye on two former employees of that company. What are those employees was Julia. Tarot who we told you about at the top of the show. The other one was Kathryn Bright. Let's fast forward to the following year. It's now April. Fourth of nineteen seventy four, when officer Dennis Landon of the Wichita Police Department was dispatched to two three one seven east seventeenth street at five PM. Officers had been called to the scene after receiving a report of a possible shooting when two men saw someone run out of a home covered in blood. The man had been shot in the head, and as he ran from the house, he was yelling. He's now and they're a number on my sister. And when officer land arrived, there was no sign of this man because the men who call the police had left to rush the injured man to the hospital. Not Knowing immediately what he was dealing with officer landing cautiously approached the house. He knocked on the screen door and slowly pushed it open. Officer Landon received no response when he called out asking if anyone was home. Then down a hall and through windows that face onto a back patio area. He could see that there was a young female lying in a pool of blood. He ran to her side. She had blood on her face on her hands in her hair, and there is a pool of blood forming underneath her waist. She also had a severe nosebleed. She was clutching telephone in her left hand. The young woman appeared to be in her early twenty s, and while she was in bad shape. She was still alive, so there was hope. Officer, lands and Astra what happened who had done this to her, and she could hardly muster the breath to respond, but she did lift up her blouse, exposing her abdomen with his riddled with stab wounds. He then asked her if she knew her attacker, she shook her head. No, when asked if she could ID her attacker, she again shook her head. No, but. But one thing could do an ask was till officer land in her name was Catherine Bright she was twenty one years old. It was at this point Catherine started to lose consciousness the officer then rain to the kitchen to get a cloth to help stop her bleeding. He played as much pressure as he could to try to hamper her loss of blood. Catherine had a piece of rope tied around her neck. She had blood-stained rag in her right hand. She had nylon stockings binding her ankles. And she asked the officer to untie her legs in whispered that she couldn't breathe. The officer pulls out a pocket knife and cut the nylons of her legs, and he tried to keep her calm and told her and assured her that an ambulance would be there any second just to hang on. Her pupils slowly started dilating Catherine Skin became colds. It became clammy and she slowly drifted off. into unconsciousness, the ambulance arrived in Russia to the hospital. The house was searched from top to bottom. In the living room just past the front door, there was a small green table. Underneath. The officer noticed a small bag with the contents strewn on the floor. The radio in the living room was on and crackled in the background. Bitten Dory and all. are in Catherine's bedroom. There was a green dresser. The top drawer was jar and was filled with women's underwear. The telephone in this bedroom had been disconnected from the wall. And the radio in this room was on his well. Near the closet, there were two shirts tied to a nightgown. and. The nightgown was covered with blood. And the officers could see something white contrast it against the blood on the nightgown. Human Teeth. A red piece of fabric was tied to the bed. A Greenpeace was then tied to that. As the police continued to look around the bedroom, they observed this turquoise chair with nylon stockings tied to each arm and a large pool of blood on the seat. There is a bathroom that connected to this bedroom. And when police peered inside, they could see a bullet hole consistent with a small caliber handgun. There is a second hole in the linoleum tile bathroom floor. Bullet fragments were also present on this floor. And from everything the police had seen and observed so far. They deduce that Catherine's brother had likely walked into the home as his sister was being attacked, the perpetrator was likely spooked shot Catherine's brother than hastily stabbed Katherine to death before he left. And the scene was processed and police learned that the pickup truck that belong to Catherine's father was missing, and it was found eastbound down the street on the same street of this home in inside of the truck. There was a piece of cord that had been stained with. There was also a stocking cap that presumably this perpetrator had worn. Officers were then sent to the Wesley Medical Center to speak with nineteen year old Kevin Bright was Catherine's brother when they arrive alien that Kevin had been shot twice in the head, and he also had a white cord tied around his neck, and one gunshot blast was to his upper right lip in the second was to his forehead and thank goodness. This is a small caliber weapon, because otherwise huma certainly would not have lived through these injuries. At the hospital, doctors counted five stab wounds in Catherine's abdomen should also been stopped twice in the back and doctors did everything they could try to save her, but she didn't pull through surgery. Kevin struggled to relate officers what had happened and what he had seen, but his speech was intrepid several times due to him, choking up blood, but eventually he was able to give a clear statement. Current Bright said that he had stayed over at his sister's house the night before the attack due to the snowfall, they'd received that day. They ran some errands and when they return to the House at twelve, thirty, pm. The brother and sister had been confronted by a white male with a gun. He forced them into a bedroom. He told them that he was from California and he had no intention of hurting them. All he needed was a car and some money to get to New York. The man ordered Kevin and Catherine into a bedroom Kevin was forced to tie up his sister with her wrist behind her back. He was then tied up himself and moved into the other bedroom. Then the man pair of nylon stockings around Kevin Snack. Kevin believe that this man was about to strangle him to death, so he struggled until he was loose and started trying to fight back, and that's when the attacker shot him twice in the head before kicking him several times to quote unquote. Make sure he was dead. Kevin never consciousness, but was bleeding profusely and in shock he could hear his sister crying out in pain from the other room. Catherine's autopsy reveal that her cause of death was due to her stab wounds as well as strangulation. She'd been choked so hard. That are larynx had been severely damaged. She deep ligature marks on her neck on. And on her ankles, and she had bruises and hemorrhages all over her face from being severely beaten as well. Kevin Bright was badly wounded and enroll just performed emergency surgery to remove the bullet from his head and ultimately his brain. Metal Plate. was inserted. into his skull. One of the wounds, he sustained force survival three teeth. The surgeries were grueling, but he did survive, and he's the only person known to have ever lived to tell of a bt K. Attack Kevin described his assailant as twenty five years old, five feet, eleven, inches, one hundred and eighty pounds of stocky, build and a moustache. He was wearing a black stocking cap a windbreaker. An army coat with fur around the hood and a silver wristwatch on his left arm, the man was wearing gloves and was sweating profusely. The talk unfolded. And so again my father's Mo is strangulation for nine of ten cases, and what have been an attempt. He just got interrupted, so he used a knife. But that was my father SEMO, thirty years and murdered ten including two children. He didn't rape, but he I mean he murdered two kids, and took out a family and murdered seven women after that, so he basically. He switched just women because he realized it was kind of hard to murder. Ban I mean that's how how cold father can be. It would be a while before the police would connect Catherine's murder the Tara family slaying. At this point, there was no reason to suspect serial killer. So many things about these two encounters have been different. There were children involved in the Tara killings for one. There was a gun used to assault Kevin Bright. Catherine had been stabbed. The victimology was all over the place, and the only similarities were there were bindings found on the risk of all of the victims, and also both Katherine and Julie's purses had been dumped out. and not to mention a troubled young man, had confessed the Otero killings and implicated two of his friends, and the Seventy S, this completely eliminated the possibility that these cases could be connected at all and adding to the horror of btk, as murderers was his constant toying with authorities. This guy loved a cat and mouse situation and his first contact with please started with an engineering textbook at the Public Library. Rights because seven months after Catherine Wright's murder on October twenty second of Nineteen, seventy four. Don granger of the Wichita Eagle and Beacon newspaper received a telephone call from an anonymous man claiming that information regarding the Tarot family murderers could be found in a book in the Wichita Public Library. This man immediately called the police to let them know about this call. He just received because it is jarring. In a book called applied, engineering mechanics the police found two page type document within this document included a statement of responsibility for the Otero, murders and attempts to explain a motivation in rationale for committing, said murders and a codename of me T K drive from the words by them torture them kill them. The purpose of this letter was clear to taunt law enforcement. The letter stated the following I. Write this letter to you for the sake of the tax payer as well as your time. Those, three dudes have in custody are just talking to get publicity for the murders. They know nothing at all. I did it by myself, and with no one's help. There has been no talk either. Let's put this straight. Quote. The man who scripted this letter provided gruesome details. Only the killer would now. The police said that these descriptions were incredibly detailed down to the location of specific pieces of furniture. Law Enforcement Guests at the killer must have stood over the bodies. Take notes. Or sketched his handiwork. Or worse, he had taken photos. The letter continued. Quote I'm sorry this happens to society. They are the ones who suffer the most. It's hard to control myself. You probably call me psychotic with sexual perversion. Hang, up. When this monster enters my brain, I will never know. But it's here to stay. How does cure himself? If you ask for help that you've killed four people. They will laugh or hit the panic button and call the cops. The letter continues quote. I can't stop it, so the monster goes on and hurts me as well as society. Society can be thankful that there are ways for people like me to relieve myself at times by daydreams of some victims being torture and some being mine. It's a big complicated game. My friend of the monster plays. Putting victims numbers down following them checking up on them, waiting in the dark, waiting waiting. The. Pressure is great, and sometimes he runs the game to his liking. Maybe. You can stop him. I can't. He has already chosen his next victim or victims. I don't know who they are yet. The next day after I read the paper I will now, but it's too late. Good luck hunting. Yours truly guiltily. The letter was not signed, but there was a postscript. Quote to PS since sex criminals do not change their mo or by nature cannot do so I will not change mine. The code words for me will be buying them torture them. Kill Them. Be T K. You see it here again. They will be on the next victim and you can see where he switches. Like if you go look at human trial. You can see where he switches If. There's two people. He's one person and he's not insane. He's not schizophrenic is not bipolar. It's more that he. He calls it cubing that he just. It's like a dyson. He just flips what side he shows you so that he's always dentist. He's always speak as always dining. Just flipping what I told you about like clicking that uniform that mask of what he wants to mayor like what you're expecting. And so. That's how he explains it. Went as said he thinks ninety percent of my speech K. And ten percents, Dennis Rader and I argue ninety percent is dat, but that's because that's who I know. And if I had ever met the TK, if my family had ever met and we wouldn't be alive. One of the things that I found that was interesting is. We've heard this so many times. I'm not going to hurt you. I just need money for my car. To go someplace, and we know we heard that with Zodiac and we know we heard that with with GSK. Van. I need gas for my van. And then and then at like Barry Esa Zodiac said the same. Thank you know I'm not going to hurt you i. just need need to out of here. DID MONEY FOR? For car so I think it's just. It's strange how this guy knew what he was going to do. He knew he was gonNA. Kill them and. He. Just did it anyway. You know what I mean. They're just giving that example of. You know I I'm not going to hurt. You need money for gas comes up in three famous killers. It's it makes a lot of sense because like it's in those pivotal moments that he's getting control. He just needs them tied up at that. Point it to verse one, so you just want to calm people down in what they always tell women to do. If you're being robbed, give your purse up. Don't fight. Just let them do it like that's what we're all told to do. Don't fight back. Just let them rob you in no. No leave, so he's trying to put them at ease in till therein in bindings, and then the terrorizing starts there you're exactly right, and you hit the nail on the head to because it is to against one. It's yeah and lake. Berry Institute Zodiac. That's that's. That's two against one. He has to get control of the situation and he's just gotTa. Say Listen. I'm just going to tell you that's it. Just GonNa, tell you up. And then he's, he wants he wants. He wants to just be in sleight control, and then he also, it's probably such a thrill for him to see them like relaxed, and not that scared like this is a robbery. It'll be over soon. We can replace this stuff to like Oh my God. This isn't a robbery. You know what I mean like that that like. sort juxtaposition is probably very exciting for him well, and also it's like you will two things one. He probably only needs a couple seconds of time for somebody to relax like you're saying to kind of get in his situation where you can buy them up without too much of a struggle, and then also yeah like you're saying it's just like there's the thrill of them kind of letting their guard down, and if you're in sort of fight or flight situation, and you would just try to fight or fight back or run away if you think it is. If this person is actually attacking you. Maybe you would kind of let your guard down and be like okay well. If I comply what he's doing. He leave me alone at some point. In one of those things that serial killer Sorta, universally, the terror is big for them so. When they when he shot when he surprises them, and he ambushes them in their own home. There's terror. If somebody's in your home, I mean after we did the be the the golden state killer show I imagine someone in my home time thinking about that and there's nothing scarier, so he's already got them tariff terrorize, and it's like, but he wants to bring them back down to calm an up again because it's like he likes to control like. Like his fix that, he's getting from us, which is like tear I mean it's part of torch. He wanted torture in his monitor. Because that is what he's getting, he doesn't rape. He doesn't penetrate. He gets off on the fear of controlling people who are at his will, and it's a huge part of it so I think putting them at ease to just bring them back up to like fighter. Flight is just part of his little games. And, remember what say though if you're being robbed, you take your wallet or your person you throw it and then you see other way. Another interesting thing that I think we wanted to bring up. Is that his writing of the letter? It's the first letter he's ever done. And he did it on the heels of three young people falsely confessing to being involved in the murder. So what do we make of? It's like somebody was stealing his glory and he had to intervene. Yeah I mean obviously knowing what we know about bt Kay. He loves the attention. He loves the chase like he thrives off of that cow cat-and-mouse kind of a game, and in my mind seeing you know, he writes this letter right after somebody else confesses to the crime and is getting probably all this press all this attention. There's probably a huge part of them. That's totally jealous and Watson attention back on him, so he's like no, no I'm going to rewrite the story I'm GonNa. Give you all this other information, so you know the I'm the one that did it and it's so sick and disgusting, but so textbook for him. And Who knows it might be his downfall. Who knows Oh, no one knows what happens we now. It's his fatal flaw and every serial killer has won. His is like Bundy's lack of impulse. Control Beechy as was just. Glaring Narcissism Narcissism. Deangelis was such a pristine mo that it was identifiable. Even without DNA like there's a reason he's been charged with so many crimes even though there's not DNA, it's because he was so militant that every crime was so specific that even just circumstantially you get all this shit like everybody's got one. In today's episode, we discussed the first five murders attributed to be tk. At, this point within bt, case, career of killing Carey hadn't even been born yet, but fatherhood would not soften Dennis. Raiders urge to kill. He refined his techniques here find his Mo, and he got better and more resourceful in concealing his secret double life next week on part two will take you through the remainder of as murderers can examine. The narcissism fueled correspondents that bt continued to initiate with police, which would ultimately be his undoing. All right well, this is obviously one of the most infamous cases in the world, but we always want to tell the untold stories, so if you have a story, you would like to tell. Please email us. Hello at the first degree PODCAST DOT com, you can follow us an instagram at the first degree, Alexis linkletter Johnson at Jack Vanik, join our facebook group by searching the first degree in the search bar. We're talking true crime all the time and stick around because we're GONNA kill some time and reminisced about the last hundred episodes. Remember only you can prevent serial killers. Keep your friends close. Now Orange Chicken. or chicken general sows for life. That's not orange chicken, or yes, it is is. Is it sweet and Sour? is a different type of chicken. Sources, for today's episode include court documents, the Wichita Eagle Kansas Dot, com, the La Times, and as always our first guest is always our largest source. Okay ladies. Well. This one's for you I mean. Is there any worse feeling than when it's that time of the month, and wouldn't you give anything to have a little bit of comfort? Well, that's what I love. Carefree breath so carefree breathe offers a line of skin, friendly pads, panty liners that go beyond leak protection to keep your skin dry and irritation. Free Care Breathe offers irritation production for your most sensitive area. There clinically tested by dermatologists to meet sensitive skin standards and their free from fragrances, dyes and harsh erase since they have an air infused cover. Cover with a soft touch feel and it keeps your skin dry, and for light days reach for their painting liners, and when you need a little bit more protection they've got you covered with their super. An overnight absorbency is I. Love just wearing one of those WanNa. Go to bed. You can barely feel it. And when periods happen, stay protected and help prevent feminine. Discomfort with carefree breathe ultra thin pads, so for more information or to buy check it out on Amazon or Walmart Dot com, or you may find it at your local grocery store or CBS. Did you know that right now. Guy Is offering an extra fifteen percent credit on car, motorcycle and RV policies. That's fifteen percent on top of the money. GEICO could already save you. So what are you waiting for your dog to make you breakfast in bed? As Nice as that sounds, it's probably never going to happen, but Eliecer never been a better time to switch to geico save an extra fifteen percent when you switch by October seventh. Visit GEICO. Dot Com to learn more. All right welcome to of various special episode of killing time. It's our one hundred eighty anniversary episode. I don't know if this is really an anniversary milestone anniversary and I'm telling you I did not think I would make it this long. I thought I would die long before this just in general. Yeah. Human Death It's this is Chris that means. We've only been doing this for two years. Guys I know. It's been like really fast and so in attornal. feels like two decades. Yes, I know. I can't really remember a time where well I really can't remember I didn't Alexis. But I can't remember a time where I haven't known you, billy, you just are such a big part of my life now. Take it easy, billy. And by the way what I could do it a little less of Billie Johnson I'll tell you that. What I. What I went to. What I went back home. Phoenix I had four copies of. How to be a lady from all different independent booksellers had to open. So that's so nice. 'cause. That's the title of the book. Or is it actually? ACT LIKE A lady, yeah! Clearly opened at Philly. Have more. Front wrapped it black came in. And I was busy summer honestly I was going to send it to my nieces who I don't really talk to that often and then. I thought against it, but I gave it to Zoe, so he has you don't WanNa. Be The creepy uncle who doesn't talk. Denise's and then sends a random how to be a lady buck. With tales of sacks and lots of. The cover has vaginas on it like weird book to get from your uncle. That's why I didn't. Know Billy's the creepy uncle. Because like what else would he look? I looked alone. You know what you have, no idea what the other uncles look like so. There probably. Creeper probably normal normal uncle. And your I don't know how young your nieces are, but they're probably slender age, so they probably see the resemblance in our like. My slender ball twenty one years old. Okay well anyways uses. The point of this episode of the point of killing time today. Is. We're going to just take a look back. On the first degree and really reminisce about the highs, the lows, the beginnings you now, the friends the memories, so I think a good thing that we could do right now is just take it back to the very beginning and recording our very first episode, and how terrified I was to do that. You know it's surprisingly good considering we didn't know what we were doing yet. We didn't The format wasn't fully thought out. We. I mean the format and. The, podcast itself I mean it was kind born by the fact that you and I I each I agree stories, and that's what I call them first degree stories, but before we used to just call it. Oh, yeah! I knew someone who. Murdered somebody or I knew someone you know in. It fucks you up a little bit especially as a kid. And Yeah I. Mean I just I. Do love the organic nature of how we came up with the concept, and how it's evolved over the last two years. He's a really. It's a completely different podcast now a great way. With us right and I think it's so crazy that we first started the podcast. We're grasping at straws of stories to do and our podcast isn't like any other true crime podcast. We can't just pick and choose what stories we're going to do and make it like the craziest twisty turny kind of story. We rely completely on I. Guess So. It's crazy to think about where it started from and the stories that we kind of did in the beginning, and where we are now that are hundred episode is bt. K. Like you can't get any more prolific than that story, so it's really it's a kind of a cool full circle moment I think. It's just a matter of that. I think probably maybe ninety eight percent or ninety seven percent of the ones that we've done have been from listeners coming to us. We might have had some opportunities where I've met somebody or Alexis somebody, and then we we broach that, said Hey, we've got this podcast. Would you WANNA come on it? But for the most part it's you know for? For a large majority of it like you said, we can't just go out and pick the most kind of outlandish story. They're all coming from the listeners, and both of you guys I mean can attest to this like you can't just find somebody that knows somebody that was a murderer, and then they're gonNA talk about it like it's so. It's such a delicate process to really. Create a relationship with somebody and have them feel comfortable enough to let you tell their story right Alexis. I do think so I think there's definitely a bedside manner, because when we sometimes get suggestions from people on instagram or people on facebook, encouraging us to cover a specific story I. Tell them if you know somebody connected and have them reach out we don't necessarily want to. Penetrate somebody's life and dredge up some horrible feelings that they were feeling, and it's like Kerry you know. Our I guess for these btk episodes btk as daughter said to me, you know. I didn't talk for fifteen years after his arrest and I didn't want to, and I wasn't going to people. Reaching out to me was just disrespectful. It's like it had to be on. My terms had to be ready. Speaking specifically in reference to. Joseph Angelo's daughters because she was saying if they ever reached out to me, I would love to have like camaraderie with them like these two perpetrators are so similar. It's they were probably just as blindsided his me and she's like everyone should leave them alone like. Let them, grieve, give them privacy because when she's like, she was physically like on the brink. Of a severe like. Oil shock like you have to leave people alone like their whole world comes crashing down when they're this close to something this pain fall, and they assume a lot of that guilt that if there. Carries Dad. Causes Pain like she takes. She takes that guilt on because she's an. Empathetic empathetic person. You know, so. It's like we have to just leave them alone. Because their whole world has ended, and that's how it is with our with our podcast. We're lucky enough that people reach out with their stories. But it is, it's not slim. PICKENS. Be Get a great deal of them. But we really do have to pick with what from what people submit to us, and I think that is the respectful way to handle it. Oh absolutely and like you're saying to about. People needing to leave people like that alone. That are connected to these like horrific circumstances. It's kind of like how you think about celebrities. When something happens to a celebrity, and then everybody just can go and treat them like shit on the internet or whatever it is, it's like you forget. People are human and the situation like this. It's like you find out who bt. K.. Is You find his family? I'm sure she got harassed and his. Just this nightmare where it's like humanity is kind of taken out of these people that are have nothing to do with it, and are innocent themselves, and then to try to pull things out of them on top of all of the. Pain that they're going through is just like. Woah. Yeah I think it's important to remember that people connected to not only victims of violent crimes, but people connected to perpetrators are also victims. If you if perpetrator is coming in enough to outsmart law enforcement for almost forty years, and they're certainly cutting enough to outsmart a child who is under their control. Anyway because he's The dad, he's the man of the House. You sort of the dominant person like you. You craft tire life for your kid. and. People doubt her and and Demonstrators, wife, as to as to their ignorance us what he was doing and I'm just like. I can't believe you guys think these two people would actually stand by and like. It's just it's just a wild thing to suggest like these people we. We can't even imagine how manipulative and cunning sociopaths were capable of murdering. Children are at manipulation. Oh absolutely. Okay Well I. I mean even talked really at all. Though you guys know well I'm just I'm just picking my spots. What's your favorite? What's your favorite episode out of out of all the episodes? We've done billy. I thought Jonestown was was really good. I know those are multi partners John. Sound was so good. We had Jim Jones Junior. And that's also we I. Feel Jonestown was. Not that far from when we ted Bundy was close to the beginning, and then Jonestown was not that far from the beginning, and we had i. mean could not have a closer first degree interview that was when we were in in the office in Studio City, so we've for for those of you just to show you how the sausage is made a little bit. We were in a studio in. Beverly Hills Right, and then we went to a studio in. Studio City than we went to Alexis apartment, and now since we're quarantining, where in our own apartments yeah, the the recording process has evolved quite a lot, and it used to take us about six hours to record a single episode because we'd get so distracted and we'd be catching up. Gossiping we order some Chicken Nuggets. We'd get some drinks. There was a beer tap at one of the places that we recorded at so it was just like endless. Greater greater I mean. What more could you ever want? Jokes getting rid of that? Should I buy it. Yes. What do I do with it? Though just fill, get a keg. Fill it up. Yeah! We can I'm trying to buy a house soon. We can put it in my house I should buy it and just keep it here for a while. Yeah can finish with it, okay. When could you need a K. Greater? I know I should just get like a pony keg. Throw it in there for when people come over. It's a good move. Hangzhou. I'll by. Alexis. What's your favorite episode? I have a few I mean I loved Jimmy Kloss. That's my most recent favorites. I loved Yongle Man I. Love Jodi Arias. I really really liked. Love. John, get. True I I mean first degree Barbara she was one of the best interviews I just think. Personality wise in her her ability to articulate. Especially, a crime that happened in the sixties. Was the most charismatic amazing person, but honestly at bt. K. I love to I just but I. I love all of them. You do love. Yeah I really like. I'm trying to think of some of the lesser known cases that I love but. I don't know I. Just I love it. I like the cazenove killer think. Daughter victims. She was amazing. Her name is crystal. She was an amazing interview to I. Just Really Bonded I loved. Trial by media the. Bob Ward case. I become really good friends with Sarah and Mallory, Ward who wore his daughters were fighting to free him. I Love Sandy Malger I. Still Talk to you all the time we've all become very good friends with Tara knew. All Young Age was a great one. What are some someone's? Oh Yeah. Oh my God. They were Fanta I see. They're all good guys I. Love that one. I think it's so special when we get to do an episode, because usually Alexis does the interviews by herself and they're usually via foam. Because the people obviously don't live in L. A., and now we can't see anybody, but we've had a few episodes where we've been able to do the interview with all three of us in a room with the other people and those are I mean we did Kim Goldman's that way we did tear new wells that way we did pain Lindsay's that way. That way and crystal. Kipper Crossover with Justin From Generation Y. I loved the Chris Christie episode was amazing to I. Love that one. Yeah, that was it was amazing. That was also when so it was his, and then jared's episode around the same time, and that's also on our production value. What really up because jared started working on the podcast, started getting some like really good like sound effects and good music transitions and stuff. Jared was amazing to hit. He had of all of our interviews. I'd say he sounded so sincere. I just remember. He is and I remember recording that in my living room and watching him like he would like stare off pensively and like really think about what he was going to say. I'm like what a guy what a guy look at this guy. He's suddenly right more sincere and your entire life. No, he is the most sincere person I know, but his was interesting, because not only because I just love him because he's the best, but. His. What he had learned from his experience with that was so interesting because it was like jared's. I experience understanding what death and the concept of death is in your life, and I always like those first degrees that have kind of an interesting either perspective, or their connection was really interesting. Ted Bundy episode was phenomenal because you've got to see a story that you know so much about if you're into true crime from like a completely New Light so I love, and we kind of get those interesting perspectives. Me To what was the name of the perpetrator? I I'm blanking I've had a crazy day, but. The one where my my great aunts friends is the family Nyah later and I saw him out like a reunion. He's told me about it. What was his name Williams? William. Bradford Bishop Yeah I love Nazi. New I'm like because I just love. That is the essence of the podcast where it's like I. Go see my great aunt and her partner sauce boyfriend. He's like no Alexis. I hear what you do I. Know this thing. Let me look this up. This is probably. What Mer and then I do let him like God. It's like the most prolific unsolved family later case there in. That case that that keeps increasing, because it is so unknown, and so it happened has lutely bonkers and there's so many like pictures of. Like he was seen in Belgium. and. He was like a CIA operative I'm like this is really good. No it's crazy. I just love I. Mean we've gotTa tell so many cool stories on this podcast and I can't wait to see what the future holds for the rest of them. I I'm with you and we want to say. Thank you to everybody for trusting us with stories and we've never. I will say we'd never had anyone be unhappy. Want their story changed or taken down like we really have our guest backs? As and we have integrity in this storytelling. We don't shame people we don't. Muddle the truth. We don't have an agenda. We just want to help. People get their narrative and you know their story out there. Yeah I think respect is like the number one thing. Exactly. Well all right well time about fifteen forty eight P. P. Full?

Dennis Rader officer Kansas murder Wichita Joseph Otero Joseph Junior Joseph Senior Ju Catherine Julia Charlie Danny Otero family Billy Johnson Joseph Kevin raiders Bundy Panda Express Kevin Bright Carey
Gloria Marmolejo

The First Degree

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Gloria Marmolejo

"Thank you for listening to this podcast. One production available on apple podcasts and podcast. One. Ladies. It's two thousand nineteen and there's a lot going on in this world right now revolving around health care, and especially birth control, and we're super super excited to have an amazing sponsor, that's going to help you save a lot of time and money in getting your birth control and they're called simple health. And as the name suggests they're here to make your care simple starting with online birth control. So birth control is getting a much needed twenty-first-century upgrade. And with simple health, you can get your birth control, prescribed online and delivered to your door for free. Whether you're already on birth control, looking to get back on or want to try it for the first time, simple, health will take care of you. So, you know, those forms you fill out at the doctor's office. 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Darkened scares Jones with ghoulish creature's around every turn, you'll enjoy outrageous, live entertainment, and you can experience the thrills and excitement of many of Universal Studios, and most popular rides, and attractions, face your deepest fears and step inside your worst nightmares Halloween horror nights. So like nights September six through November second. For more information visit Halloween horror nights dot com. Degree degree degree. First, the first degree. He thinks he's supposed to happen in movies, not we alike. I mean people I mean hand like most definitely he looks like a normal diet. He there was always family you know about. He was always around family. You were going around here, you know, and honestly, like he was really good with kids that what you see. But then you hear what he did was mom. And it's it is very heartless person, I made to his own mother, like he had no heart. Hey guys, welcome to the first degree the true crime podcast that you might end up on. My name is Jack Vanak. I'm sitting next to Billy Johnson and across from Alexis linkletter. And if you guys didn't know we're going to be at crime con next month June seventh through tenth in New Orleans. And if you guys want to come, you can get ten percent off your badges with our code degree nine teen. The Bill is going to be doing some other shit, not with us because he's a traitor, but he is going to be wearing matching signing hotel gear with. Against his will even though Jack agree to it when she was drinking. And now is having second thoughts, but it's too late. I agreed when I was drunk because it seemed like a good idea, but I know they're going to be really Janke items of clothing, and I'm shaker than that. But, you know, maybe we'll have a shining hin or something like abo-. All right. Let's get into our case on the morning of July twenty fifth two thousand nine Julia Serano was sitting in her El Paso home, and it's situated in a quiet cul de sac in youthful neighborhood, in El Paso, in suddenly, she heard knocks at her door. And when she opened the door, there were two men were the sons of our next door neighbor, fifty four year old Gloria marmolejo. The older son was named Manny. And the younger son was named David David live next door with his mother, who was missing. Manny lived in Phoenix Arizona, the mania driven to El Paso, after not being able to reach his mother for days. My name is Julie Serano. I live in Texas and Loria marmolejo was actually my neighbor. She was a right across the street from me. I've lived in full, the fact for about twenty plus years. My Marcus, you want a have you. For me. I'll pay the. Always smiling like solo say, hi very friendly with everyone. Well, in Florida, like with their on she pretty much issue my alone efforts, and Vancouver spun gave him a man with her. She had like you know what you have a feminine those over here. We have family, so she was never a little. If not for the fact that you kind of pretty much know what everyone's doing or whatever was up to that. I like my mom is mentioned, you know that you haven't seen our next neighbors, Loria marmoleum home. And you know, things on for fight like a few months. So it would be only person, I was outside David normal on or famous. And then you have like, like it was always I don't, I'm not sure if it was like that he has around, or if it will like cousins, there was always kids, like it was there's was silly family. Okay. So back to the day Manny and David marmolejo came knocking on Julie's door became knocking out the door. And it was Gloria are fund Davis. And it was also another one of her older son, and be full payment, and they were not looking for their mother, you were asking if we've had any information, and if we feed her older brother, you can tell they will have been crying all they really. You know what they really quite fee. It was he was the one who was in the backseat didn't say anything. He wasn't asking question for block his bomb. It was more his older, brother, and he will go into. He was interacting with a more like kind of seeing him. He seemed a little over. So Gloria is missing and a little bit of background about her. She was fifty four years old, and she essentially raised her two sons by herself. So she was married previously, but that marriage ended in nineteen seventy nine and she was left alone to raise her son, David, who has nine years old, and Manny junior who is thirteen their father traveled a lot. So he never really ended up being in their lives after the divorce David and Manny were really close growing up, but their age difference and it's ended up separating them as they got older. And Gloria had a different relationship with each of the boys, she showed her youngest son David, a lot of support. He needed more attention. So the family ended up catering to him a lot more than Manny junior. And in two thousand and two glorious ex husband remarried and his new wife had two children of her own a teenage boy, and a ten year old girl named Mariah. Now, the boys were adults at the time this happened, and they were about to start families of their own and David had been in a relationship since middle school. And he eventually married this middle school sweetheart named Laura. They immediately start having kids. They have four total. But by two thousand six David said he wanted out of their relationship, and because he had sort of gotten married so quickly. He never really had another girlfriend. His eyes start to wander. He leaves her any moves to Hawaii, and for for a while. And then he also goes to Phoenix before landing back at his mom's place in El Paso. Right. And meanwhile, is obviously information and background info about them spanning decades. You know, this is just a kind of overview about this family. But Gloria meanwhile started new chapter retiring after twenty seven years of working really hard to support this family has single, mom, and after she retired. She sensually moved to Phoenix to be closer to her older, son. Manny and his wife Jennifer in there for kids. So she was really splitting her time between Phoenix and Paso. And glorious plans were to open a daycare with manny's wife. Jennifer, they had a really amazing relationship, and they both loved children. This is something they were going to pursue together. So that's the background info on this fam-. So let's get back to the fact that Gloria is missing in retrace the days leading up to her disappearance, so on Saturday, July twenty fifth two thousand nine Gloria was in Phoenix and decided to head back to her home, in El Paso, her son. Manny tried to get her to stay with them. They're going to the lake with his family, but she declined and decided to continue with plans heading to L Paso. She drove off in her red Honda SUV, and she was set to arrive in El Paso, at five pm based on when she left. Manny started calling his mother that evening to make sure she arrived. Okay. And he called her a bunch of times. But there is. No answer. And he ended up calling his brother David, and asked him if he saw his mom David said that he saw her when she got in, and he helped her bring her bags inside and told many that everything was normal, his mama's fine. And he left to go meet friends after that he saw her. So the morning comes and the next day her phone keeps going to Boyce, male, and it's not like Gloria to keep Manny out of the loop on what's going on savannah, calls, David again in the morning. David answers at ten thirty. He s David where's mom and he says, oh, I don't know. I never went home last night. So call star ping pong between all of chlorine, family members, where's Gloria whereas Gloria whereas whereas she no one had heard from her and from Phoenix. Manny tries to call the El Paso, PD to file missing persons support. But they said that the report would have to be made by the last person who saw Gloria, which I think, is kind of odd that is weird. Is that like it's always, I've never heard of that. Four but have, you know, but, you know, they're probably just like maybe they were just a putting him off like somebody here to do it. You can't do this from stayed away. I don't know what's going on. Like how to you know she's missing. She might not just be, maybe she went to the store. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. So with this point, Manny is freaking out and decides to come his Goan El Paso with his family to look for his mom. And by the time he gets to El Paso, and the whole family is their glorious parents cousin siblings. And then they call the police. So at glorious house, the detectives arrive to ask questions in take information pertaining to this missing persons report that they're getting. So David went over step by step is interactions with his mother the day. She arrived in L Paso. And he said that on that Saturday, July twenty fifth the days mother arrived, he was at the Carmichael theater on the east side of town. He ended up receiving a call from his mother around five pm and he was surprised. He had no idea. She was coming. That's interesting. So I mean, the background information is, is that she's living halfway in Phoenix in halfway in Paso? And she's allowing David to stay there while she's not there, right? So the idea here being that she wanted to drop in on him to see what was going on unannounced. See how he was carrying for the house, all of that kind of stuff. So when she did arrive to the house, he was at the movies, and she noticed when she got there, there was a lock on the door of her master bedroom, but she called David upset about. She wanted to be let into her bedroom, which seems reasonable. And so he kind of left in a hurry in the middle of a movie to go let his mom in. Right. So when he got there, she was bitching at him for this stuff understandably. So he left. And that night, he didn't come home. And that's what he said on the phone to Manny. Like when he answered the phone at ten thirty I didn't go home. So in Gloria's room, her suitcases sat untouched and she had her 'cause medics case sat zipped, close on the bathroom vanity and this was super uncharacteristic of her because she usually unpacked and settled, right in right away and Heredia car was missing and cars calls her cell phone. We're going straight to voicemail, which is never a good sign. The police immediately confirmed David story with his friends that he went to the movies with. So it all seemed to check out, but the word that she was missing was starting to spread through the neighborhood. They were understood is that we have got an updated 'cause he works out. Laurie. I'm level her poignant eighteen list again up. She wouldn't walk tool, middle school, or he would drive, depending on the weather sold their mentality was okay, she's a festive, we just need to see, you know where difficult. So I mean, that's what we were understood for vile are full. The fact is, it's pretty much like unlock them, you know, there's ret cakes. And it was really hard to get any get out because you have to identify yourself. There was like it just seemed like there was a lot of pants wasn't a lot of family. There said it saving normal hold up the only one bringing their so I don't think anyone was allowed to go to the house. It was pretty much just a lot of -pective trying to figure out what had happened or what happened to her recipe. So police start pressure testing theories while they're digging into glorious background. They learned that she was very religious. She loved God. Loved helping families helping others, she'll helping your family, she attended the university of Phoenix and got a degree from there. She worked for the Texas workforce commission for over twenty years, where she served as the integrated service area manager and after retirement, she went on to pursue a new career as a real estate Asian for Coldwell Banker. So there really wasn't anything that they found in her background, in her work in her church that we're gonna leave them any leads that they could potentially smokeout. Right. And her house actually, was this really cute a frame house, in on kind of the roof over the porch. There was like a giant cross. I mean, this woman was like a God, loving woman, you know, buttoned up just to super solid person said they weren't exactly like there was no red. Flags and there's like no enemies to point nothing, nothing. So as police are speaking to all the family members, they start to pick up on the fact that there was kind of this family secret that people in the family were tiptoeing around, because they're all in the same room like all the family was congregating. So as the police are questioning people, I assume people are kind of overhearing in there seems to be something people are avoiding and uncomfortable about. So remember how we mentioned that glories visit was announced. So she didn't tell David that she was coming, because she wanted to catch David off, guard in confirm a sneaking suspicion that she had been having that David was a sexual relationship with his stepsister fifteen year old Mariah Wilson that they were secretly living in glorious home together. And how old is he at the time twenty-seven up? And so this is this not. Okay. No. This is step sister thing is whatever they're not blood. Related. But the age difference in conjunction with that is disturbing that rape then. Right. Well, it depends on the laws. We looked at it depends on the laws and depends on the state, but you see Mariah had actually played a key role in causing the split between David, and his middle school sweetheart, Laura, and over the years has Maria hit, puberty and started to become a teenager. There started to be this very palpable tension. Involvement between them that started to kind of evolve in Texas is considered stats rape, statuary, rape to have sex with someone under the age of seventeen wherever there was a close in age exception that allows a person of sex with someone under seventeen as long as the older person is not more than three years older than the minor. So we've got the lend. This is two thousand nine. Well, it is bad now. In general. This is a father of a father of four and has children are probably closer in age than she is. I think they're like six yet is I could at twenty one just snow around the same at the same age difference. Yeah, that's gross. So Gloria was right. David Mariah had been in a sexual relationship for a while. It was on and off. And Gloria made it clear that she disapproved of this relationship and threatened to Victor Davis. If she found out that Mariah was living with him under Gloria's roof. So that's precisely why she came over to see what the hell is happening at her house. So she had a problem with a relationship for all the obvious reasons or is the age difference. He was being a total, absentee father to his kids, and obviously, it was his stepsister and disgusting and Gloria had been growing increasingly more frustrated with David she was chastising him for not getting his life, together, not paying the bills at her home and breaking promises to see his nephew in Arizona, as well as relationship with Mariah. And she specifically asked Manny not to tell his brother that she was going to El Paso, to see what was going on. So if you're a true crime freak and I'm assuming that you are since you listen to our podcast. I'm sure that you remember the death of Rebecca's a how, and one of our favorite network's oxygen is premiering a four part limited series on Saturday, June first and guess what? It's featuring our very own Billy Johnson. So I'll give you a little refresher on the story. Rebecca's a how was found dead hanging naked bound and gagged in the courtyard of her billionaire boyfriends Coronado mansion in two thousand eleven just two days after his six-year-old son, max suffered a fatal accident while under Rebecca's care. It's a crazy story and Rebecca's cause of death was ruled as a suicide leading two years of endless public intriguing speculation. So there's a lot going on in this case, and Billy along with combs. And you guys know Paul holes are taking another look at the mysterious case, and they're reexamining, all of the theories surrounding the bizarre case meeting with experts family members witnesses, and never before interviewed law enforcement. It's gonna be crazy. I've seen it and you guys have got to watch it. So go check it out on Saturday, June. First at six PM eastern standard time slash Pacific on oxygen. Glorious family keeps talking and Gloria's mother, Mary, she tells the police that she had gone to the home looking for Gloria the first day she'd been missing. And she noticed something interesting, she noticed used women's underwear, and a Bank statement with mariah's name on it at the house. So many people on the outside were admitted to the family that they were suspecting that, that Mariah was living here with David, but they didn't know for sure David was constantly denying that he was not involved or statutory raping so. Yeah. And okay. So we the we have we have a Bank statement with his name on it at the house. We have used women's underwear. It's getting kind of obvious now. What David is doing? And Mariah is at the house living at the house. Right. So it's at this point that police learn a little bit more about David and at some point as requesting them in this is something you would notice after a few minutes, maybe they noticed that he's missing a leg. And he explained that he had become somewhat of a rebel after he split from his wife. Laura, not a motorcycle started doing wheelies all the time. He came daredevil in Las one of his legs in a terrible accident that almost cost him his life. E continued that Gloria at been his rock through this entire thing in got him through that injury in without her. I mean he would have died. He thinks so he split from his wife gets motorcycle gets into an accident almost loses his life is like it's cut off. And then his mom is the one that's nursing him back to health. Exactly. So police are going door to door to just talk to neighbors to see what they know about the family. I mean, what they observed because it seems like this is a little soap opera going on under this roof. Yeah. So they knock on Julie's door. And Julie who said she saw a woman who is driving glorious car the night, she'd gone missing. And it wasn't Gloria. Actually came knocking at our door as well after they seem in. I ended up sharing that that night I was off I with the right. Usually, I, I kind of wish we've done nice little, I would be out by truck on the phone, but there's frame, I had a friend over everywhere outside, and I will we were parked by the mailbox fellow sitting on my friend thumb on his trunk looking towards glory. I'm Alexis house, and it was kind of it was a normal, because, you know, I, I feel like garage stores we're opening but the car was moving in, like hesitated, and then the next pay. No, it just drove off. But if he just pick a wild the garage. Well, when they look over a appeared to be a woman on. That's what I saw the car. That's the only thing I was able to go if it happens pretty fast. All right. So according to Julie, she saw what looked like a woman, driving glorious Hyundai in late night slash early morning, which I soon to be around, like three AM. It's a little convoluted but it was an odd time. And she just assumed that it was Gloria driving her own car. She's back in town. And she said that Gloria was like an avid, fitness person like up early every morning exercising. It doesn't seem that crazy. So that's what she assumed. She was seeing then on Wednesday, July, twenty ninth Gloria's car was found abandoned near nullum entry school on the east side of El Paso, her purse, including our keys and cell phone were found inside a car. And this news of the discovery obviously horrified her entire family, because nobody knew what the hell happened to her or where she was the situation was extremely grim. It worked parked out of middle school. You know as I three visit down. I, you would occur what? But I wasn't sure if the you that it was there, like I mentioned, I that was some routine to go rebound. So I kind of like the moment that they found out like, oh, the cards slider part of me will kind of like Ardita like I wish I could have shared that with them. After that he's still couldn't figure out where she was phasing-in though. She was thinking if she was even alive like they in the happening. So the car was possessed for evidence by an E P, P D crime scene technician. And he discovered Harrison polls, and the interior of the vehicle that were consistent with glorious hair. So the police then conduct a search of her home, and they find a few curious things they find some beads in her garage that look like they came from a necklace, as well as blood on metal cabinet. The blood was in a smear. So it looks like it ended up being from somebody's hand and the blood was sent to a police lab, and El Paso, and the assumption was that the blood belonged to Gloria because obviously, everybody thinks that something happened to her there. So the home was now a crime scene. None of this is adding up for anything good. Not so glorious body was found along some New Mexico desert trails behind Santa Teresa elementary school by women who was walking her dog and her body was so badly decomposed. That officers didn't know it was her right away. But because if he's. July. It's brutal. And but the person found was wearing the same clothes that were that were in Gloria's missing persons reports or three days later, the medical examiner in L pass confirms through her fingerprints that it was her obviously glorious family is crushed. No one had any idea like, who would do this, who would do this to her? She was just incredibly wonderful, God, fearing person. Nineties, that they had found the body in Mexico Mexico, and they couldn't identify the woman. So that's, that's, that's where I could find out a little bit more about her afterwards. I believe. S. Who like in the fight a woman is into the the after about his is did from other. The news other was remember where old that was that was. Really out bad. It's heartbreaking owning like you know, this is one of like one of my neighbors us really nicely. You read very religious. So I think everyone was pretty much devastated. Laura's autopsy revealed that she'd been strangled to death. And she was choked so hard that her larynx collapsed, and her neck was left with the marks from the liquor used to kill her so strangulation is something that if you are in Detroit crime, or that sort of thing, a lot of passion, a lot of intimacy a lot of anger behind these sorts of murders in what was interesting, though, in something not immediately noticeable. It's something that canes them. Eventually was that she didn't have any cuts. So whose blood was in the garage, and if it's not glory, as you know, that they were sure it was they thought this was the crime scene in now they're kind of confused in the results hadn't come back yet. So a few days after the discovery of glorious body a funeral was planned. The beginning of her her obituary read she lives such a beautiful life loving and kind, all her ways is how we will always remember are beautiful Gloria marmolejo or love compassion, and golden heart was always upright, and just she loved God or family. Everyone and her funeral service was held at abundant living faith center with internment to follow at the evergreen east cemetery. Then to the a bit read our hearts, grieve, deeply the pain compares to no other in there at the funeral Gloria sons Manny and David and glorious brother released doves during the ceremony as they all saw bd, and Oliver family and friends, everyone knew are, and loved her were there, and it sounds so sad, so sad. So soon after this, one of her sons David makes a really bizarre statement to a family member and he was telling his family member that he was concerned that police would end up considering him a suspect because of a hug, and a kiss that he had given Gloria, which could result in DNA found on her and bowl, this, this is. A question he obviously saw her right before she left, he admitted to seeing her. So if he had hugged and kissed her like earth. Anybody had been around their DNA is going to be on her that can't prove that. But that's what he's saying. He's like, you know, he's saying, like, oh, I kissed my mom, like, if I was the last person to see her, and they find my DNA is it going to look bad? So the results on the blood in the garage ended up coming back and it revealed that the blood belonged to Mariah. And if you guys remember who she is. She was David's fifteen year old step sister, and girlfriend that Gloria was not stoked about so things are becoming super murky, like what is going on? So police bring Mariah in for questioning and she explains that the blood in the garage was a result of a fight that she had with David about a week prior to glorious return Ryan admitted to the relationship that she had with David and also to living glorious home with him. And she's talking to the police, and they noticed that she has his large cuts on her knuckles. And she says the cuts come from an accident at work. She was a waitress hooters, and she was explaining to them that she cut herself on glass, which seems possible the police were skeptical, but they called her manager, and they were able to confirm that her explanation was a apparently drew. Okay. So this is interesting, if we're thinking about this from the cops perspective. They're kinda like ooh. Star crossed lovers, her blood is here. He's weird like she's a child like what do you think? Their brains are doing or was she abducted going to work out? No. But I think they know. I think they're getting. I mean, the blood and the garage is weird, the blood had on the blood. She's a little kid like she's little. No. That's weird. Like it's weird. How young she is. But the but it's weird. So she says that the blood she cut herself at hooters, but then was she just dripping all over the place. And she got home. She said that was from a fight. So maybe it's like she reopened horse. Violently fight. I mean who knows? But the interesting thing here is, so her body was taken to New Mexico, like, don't think kid in. She is a kid carrying a body like I don't know. It seems like a stretch. But who knows. I don't think the cops know what they're dealing with its giant puzzle right now. So with this point, they're noticing the inconsistencies in David's story in the fact that he was the last one to see Gloria alive. They're starting to get it. Because after I guess what they found her body for v started to put together. They started to I get real lifestyle. David was the reason why should I? So I mean, if they have known that, I'm not sure how I would have been because I feel like he saw me that night, like, I know her Samih outside that night so feedback skirting a little bit. I didn't know if he was going to come to my house, you know, like it's just stuffy stuff, you know. And the police have they've heard this, the story about the stepsister they start piecing the story together. Laura's blood in the garage long with those beads that were from a necklace reflected that they're very well could have been a struggle in the garage. So what they're looking at now because the blood is from Araya could Mariah had been responsible for murdering Gloria because mariah's the one in the car, and it's mariah's blood. So I you know, as a police officer, you're going to go straight at Mariah. And I have a feeling they're thinking that would Mariah have done this all by herself. They're gonna start to lean on her. So since the discovery of glorious body, the police had pulled, Mariah and David cellphone records, just to see kind of what was going on. And to see if their cell phone activity would corroborate their stories so they noticed that David cell phone had pinged from tower that was approximately four miles from where law. His body was found incidence it with his story David said that he was asleep starting at ten pm during the window of time and made no mention of a drive to New Mexico. And they were painting calls that happen at one thirty seven and four fifty two close to this tower New Mexico and ho- far away was that from him again, I actually don't know the distance between I'll Paso and. The state border of New Mexico. I don't think it's about that far, you know, if it's in another state like he would have mentioned. Hey actually go, by the way. New Mexico in the middle of the night. So police are starting to suspect that either David or David Mariah together. A responsible for Gloria's murder, all signs are pointing their way, so they bring Mariah in for interrogation and their Sturt pressing her pretty hard. She breaks down and spills, everything with the prominence promise of full immunity. She admits tensions were rising over their relationship and glory, was about to kick them both out of the house, and the next details ended up being pretty horrifying to police. She told police that she had been at the movies, with David and their friends when Gloria called David after her surprise arrival at their home, David left and said that he'd be back in an hour. But he disappeared for nearly four hours or hours for out, yet, one turn to four. Pretty quick. She texted him asking where he was. And he said that he was simply, quote, taking care of business. She said at that point that she felt that David was up to something. But she didn't know exactly what he was doing. And when she met him back at the home, David coaster on how to answer certain questions and told her to stick to the story that he was going to tell her and she was afraid of David. And initially it was complying. Right. So she's going to be afraid of David, but once she gets into that interrogation room and she's talking to the police, she's gonna turn, and the in the police know that. Yeah. She's she's young. They're, they're gonna lean on her. So the police are leaning on Mariah. And then she this is what he what she says to him. Does she spills at least a bit of it? She said that David told her he killed his mother on the way back to Gloria's decide side home after leaving the movies David admitted that he did the deed. He said he's this is what he told. She told them quote. He's telling me, he killed his mom. You don't expect someone to say that? And go. Oh, really? He kept saying he did it. He did it. I didn't believe it at first, it's David she then described what happened on the day that Lori disappeared when she and David arrived at Florida's house, quote, that's when he's telling me, his plan of what he's going to do to make it seem like she was leaving for a walk and that she was abducted from there. He still insisting he did it and he says, I'm not going to show you her body, and she says, I'm thinking, oh, my God. I'm sitting in a room and a she supposed to be here and that he did it. Then. They leave the home briefly and drive around to nearby neighborhoods that were under construction. And she says he takes me to a dumpster and says, that's where I was going to put you Laura, at one point Lawrence, X Y, this end she said she was scared to death. Yeah. When they get back to the house, David has Mariah sit on the floor while David explained how he killed his mother. So this is what Mariah tells the police. So the police are there, this is not the whole story, though. But the police are close. So we talk about a lot of true crime and murder and a lot of other dark things on the first degree. So when I go home, I really wanna unwind and still use my brain. But, you know, maybe not be as dark I end the whole day. And that's why I love one of our sponsors best themes. That's friends without the are. So best fiends is this amazing five star rated mobile puzzle game, and you can discover the world best fiends and all of its cute characters in the fiendishly fund free to download mobile puzzle game. There's thousands of fun puzzles, and you can collect tons of cute characters. There's an epic storyline that'll keep you engaged with the mobile puzzle game. And there's thousands of hours of gameplay it's easy to learn but difficult to master. So you'll be playing this game. And he's second of free time that you have. I'm finally on level fifty and I am very proud of myself. So if you guys want to check out best fiends you can download it for free on the apple app store or Google play. And again, it's five star rated mobile. Game. And there's thousands of hours of game play. So again go download best fans. That's friends without the are. Alexei isn't the only one with breaking news, make sure to hang around at the end of this podcast for the latest breaking headlines on the AP news minute. If you like the first degree you're going to love enough about me, with shop rose on podcast, one twin the southern charm stars. He talks about reality TV am beyond with his wide array of interesting, friends download new episodes of enough about me every week on apple podcasts and podcast. One. So she continues, she said of what happened. He said he did get there to open the locked mass for from door, which is originally. Why glorious? Summoned him to the house. They started arguing he punched her in the back of the head. She hit her head on the door as she fell. He blacked out, quote unquote. And when he woke up had a belt around her neck in one foot on her back and kept pulling and pulling in pulling in polling. He then said that when she hit her head on the door. She started bleeding. He poured mustard all over this. Danes. Mariah continued about how David cleaned up the scene. We started cleaning. He took a screwdriver in fiend. Leftover blood spots in the grout between tile grounded bathroom mats from the dryer. We flip them over and started picking off a rubber that had stains in this is in reference to grout as well. You know how there's caulk like in cracks. He's like that. He then grabbed one of glorious shoes in snacks, Gloria in the head with it niece said that when he was choking here. He had one foot on her back, and he wanted a smaller footprint. Throw them off to me. It sounds like he's trying to flame frame, Mariah. Yeah. If you have a woman's shoe, you're trying to make a smaller footprint for wet who in the woman who would it be dammit. So. David venues, black painters, plastic to wrap up Corey, his body and used wire hangers that he looked the belts to hold all the plastic together as he dragged the body to the car. A hand when a glorious hands fell out, and he tucked back in. Then they left the house in drove around looking for a place to dispose of his body. She said we were driving around everywhere aimlessly when we exited he was looking for canal. But everywhere we went to his afraid, somebody would see us. I'm pretty scared. We're gonna get pulled over. And I just wanna make him think everything is okay between the two of us probably he doesn't turn on her. I mean, the has to be the most terrifying thing. Ver- just killed his own mother, and she's so young like you don't you're, you know, I can't imagine what was going through in her brain. Like how do you defend yourself? What do you like to comply with the person that she's got this strange relationship, where it's like her romantic something? But also her brother since she's ten bright. That's what when she said like it's David, like my brother. You know, like Christmas is, it's just probably very weird confusing. Yeah. So one point, when they're driving around they stopped at a gas station. And Mariah used David's cash to pay for gas inside the convenience store. I'm sure the police were asking her why shouldn't ask for help when she was inside the gas station. And she said that she was in love with David and didn't want to get him into trouble. So Gan like the confusion there. Well, he's, he's manipulative. He's a predator. Oh for sure. So it's like she. Yeah. He's been grooming her since she was like eleven years old. Yeah. Like a young child as they left the desert David told her to drive really slow. And he sat on the trunk and he was trying to fan out the tire trails. And they didn't talk much on the drive back to Gloria's house. And we're Iowa starting to think that she was next when there are back at the house. David tried to lighten the mood. She said that he asked for oral sex, but he wasn't serious. He laughed and she said that he was just kidding just terrifying. Mariah said that they got into several fights over moving glorious car. And those were the phone calls that happened between five thirty and six in the morning, the following day, she said that he yelled at her because he thought people had seen him and he also was saying that he should have worn pants because people would have seen has prosthetic leg. Subarea also comes clean about how he and shave. It went from step siblings to a relationship, which it was, which was in her terms. She said it happened on a trip from Phoenix to El Paso. She said it was on July fifth twenty two thousand five we, let's do the math doesn't five this is two thousand nine and she's fifteen in two thousand nine to two thousand five. She's eleven. Right. I mean I pull this from the appeal. So it's not like we made it up. So we start touching me. They known each other since she was eleven and she got pregnant by him during her freshman year in high school, which means that she was fourteen she had his baby at fifteen and gave the baby boy up for adoption. So aki. So now this guy obviously is a predator, and he saw it. It's. This is really one of the more twisted cases that we've done because the idea that his mother any had a good relationship with his mother. His mother bear offense took care of him when is when is foot got chopped off or as as lead got chopped off. I mean and the fact that him live for free in her home. Let the his wife, Laura in her four kids move, in with her so they could save for a house. I mean, they I think consistently had a good relationship in knots, then he's rolling party us. So after they have everything they need from Mariah. They get a warrant for his arrest and on September fourth two thousand nine he's arrested. So what he was being walked out to police car a reporter asked him a question. He says, mom, I love you with all my heart. Please. Help me. One. I think I if crazy things time, it's more like, wow, like, do you really did up your mom? I think that's her is like his mom looks like a really nice lady. You know what to me, I'm, like, really like your third like, don't make other women out there and you're going to kill your mom over, like island. It was worth it. Of I'm wondering how long this time was before they started questioning her, and they actually arrest him in are they in contact during that time 'cause it has to be so uncomfortable in scary for Mariah? So she basically, when she cracked it was when she was offered immunity. So I'm sure after that point, I am. Sure. There are they protecting her like police. Well, I think I mean once he's in custody, she's fine. But I think that Osama bin. She was probably like, oh. Like, but then he could find I don't know. That's just like a scary place to be all the in between like limbo of, you know, he did it and he could kill me, too, or no. I understand what you're saying, but I think that they, I have magin what they probably would have said it, especially if she was saying that she was scaring scared for her life. Okay. You stay here. We've got an arrest warrant for him. We're gonna go pick him up right now. Right. Answer your question. I mean she went missing on July twenty fifth arrested September fourth. So home to mom on the half. Yeah. I mean six weeks. Eight seven weeks, whatever which is kind of speedy considering I mean it took. Over week to find her. So, you know, and then just had to probably process that DNA evidence, right? Ryan's blood. But yet to be a fly on a wall of their conversations between the when she confessed Lord. I don't know. 'cause I'm sure it will I mean for a fifteen year old days it'd be it's, it's high stakes. It's also she's child. Do you think that they're still talking and seeing each other during that time? They're talking seen each other, probably not because he was probably not trying to upset his family and attract attention. So I would say just in like self-preservation probably not agree because on his core. He was he was doing so much to. I mean, the idea that he had her drive the car while he sat on the trunk and then used his feet to try on the fan. Now, the tire marks that's ridiculous more like tell him. He was really was like swerving footmarks on that. You know, he, he was he was he knew what he obviously that shows that, you know what you're doing was wrong. You know that you're trying to cover it up. And I have a feeling that Alexis is right that he would want to distance this himself. Yeah. Just to not seem so guilty. Every car comes with its share of stories that ding in your bumper. When you nervously picked up the first date the luxury package, you got after your big promotion or the mileage that you save by riding your bike all summer. Good job, by the way, while he can't put a price tag on your stories now with truecar you can at least find out what your car is worth when it's time to sell or trade it in just go to truecar simply enter your license plate number, and watch how your car's details pop up. Then answer a few questions if you have navigation and a moon roof watch as they bump up your value. If you have high on mileage, you already knew that was going to cost you. But now you know how much danger wallet so that you can plan ahead? Once you're finished. You'll get a true cash offer sent in minutes, which you can take your local certified dealer to cash out or trade in. So when you're ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car, check out truecar today. So, you know, after all this is happening. David is feeling the walls closing in on him. And he started hearing whispers that interest was impending so he took it upon himself and turned himself in. He was held on one million dollars bond. And as he was being led to jail. He told TV reporters that he loved his mother like Billy said following his arrest. He was administered the Miranda warnings any voluntarily waived his rights as he was questioned by detectives he gave a statement about the inconsistencies in the story and the events, surrounding Gloria's murder me, completely denied what Mariah said her version of events were, so this is one of those perp that's gonna come in and think I can I try them? Outsmart yes. So this arrest shocked, the marmolejo family, they were extremely close, which I think Julia's mentioned in her interview. They love David like, you know. They just I mean, I don't think any of them ever saw anything like this coming within their close. God loving family and the family members characterized David as being a caring father or spectral, son. You know, a who was loving, and they can never see him doing something like this. But the police describe him as a brutal rapist who imposed control on victims and I know you're thinking, okay, rapist, I know we've talked about Mariah and a statutory implications with her, but there's more we're getting there, so the arrest shocked, the bulk of David's family. But the arrest didn't shock David's ex wife. David's Twenty-seven-year-old ex wife, Laura, so that she was not surprised when she learned about his arrest and the charges against him, which sounds alarming. I mean this is the mother of his four children. She's not shocked the but she said that, while she was still married to him. He started as a normal person describing their relationship her on the time of their first child this out. She characterized it, it was like mean him against the world. We were so young with both of us having a baby so young. He took full responsibility. He was normal, a good dad and everything else, a few years later David, Laura, and his young family, moved to Phoenix. Whereas father lived the stepfather of Mariah. So it's work. Took him to San Luis Obispo California flagstaff Arizona and Hawaii and a couple of times. He also went to Yuma, Arizona David, and Laura plan on buying a house in two thousand four but to save money, the couple and their children, and they had three at the time they moved back to El Paso, and live with Gloria, but David state alone to work in Phoenix sketchy. But the most notable shift. Billy. Billy. And I own a house jets at around and visit each other, and I own a house sorry for you. Good for you in an apartment. Yes, you own a house in Phoenix, Phoenix houses are cheap not mine. House isn't payment off. Maybe one day, we'll never get to go. Nope. You might you Jerry, probably. Well, yeah, we'll have you ever for barbecue? Oh, it's actually very like big kind of, like it has a great party lay out, but we're hoping. Yeah, it totally has that, but we don't like people, so but she also noticed a shift in David after his motorcycle crash when he lost his leg. Laura also said that she knew about the attraction between Mariah and David even before the split which has to be the weirdest thing to notice between somebody in their step sister. She said it was just the way that she acted towards him. It was kind of, like if you see a little girl, kind of like a fatal attraction, it was just so Irie to me because she was always with us. She was like our daughter. And when we're when Mariah went through puberty. She said that the relationship between David and her started to change the entire family suspected a relationship. It just made them all feel uncomfortable, into rightfully so reminds me teacher's pet. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, it's right under your nose. But it's so crazy that I would like it's to incentive leave. Yes. Did your psycho right this gusting, but look, we're actually doing it right? And he's a predator. I mean Mariah was groomed by him since she waits done. You know, this is no way me saying she was a willing participant. Lou. So while David was left to his own devices in Unix. There were sinister ominous things that happened. Laura said, little by little sort of realizing things that would happen that were out of character when I wasn't around this is in reference. David Laura learned of rape allegations against her husband, between December two thousand five in February two thousand six in March two thousand six David was arrested on suspicion of viciously raping and robbing four women sex workers from Ben Buren street in Phoenix than Buren street in Phoenix is. The road is note was was originally known as the capital of the of in the universe of motels. There was one hundred forty motels on this road is the entry point into Phoenix, but remember, the movie cars from Pixar. They built the you know, they went around route sixty six and they build the highway and then nobody went to the cars land anymore. But just think about think about if this happened cars, so they go around they build the ten highway, which is the one that's right out here in LA on van Buren, all the motels go into disrepair and then it becomes a haven for drugs and sex workers interest in that. And that's what happened. So, especially if it's like the mouth of the city like Phoenix, it's like truckers in transients and vacations to bachelor party. And it's the only the only stop in between attack the box Texas in LA. Yeah. You wait a Vegas forever. But van be so there's the van Buren venue there that I've been to. That's obviously on van Buren street. But it's but it's, it's like it's not quite east. That's in a nicer kind of more like hipster type area would go to stir area. Yep. We'll see your show til. Yeah. He jerry. So. When David was confronted with these allegations. He denied them in an interview with a Phoenix detective. He told the police that he had not been with a prostitute before. In Phoenix only in Las Vegas. But when detectives told him that all four women reported being raped by a man and a two door white Mitsubishi eclipse, who had the word faith tattooed on his neck, David began to change his story. Can we talk about what a douche canoe David as well? Number one, not a girl car and a clip says the car that I wanted when I was thirteen years old seem, I was like looking at what color white. I wanted like a turquoise one but like the spoiler. I was like, that's it's girly. It's tight. Yeah. And then faith tattoo like he's like a male basic bitch. Yeah. With neck tattoo. So we I tells police that he, he picked up ten prostitutes during his time in Phoenix. Then he said, okay. Now, wait a minute. Okay, wait. It was eleven but he continues to deny raping them and this happens a lot. And this is what he says would ask why each victim told police that he robbed him rate them at gun point. He said that, you know, sometimes he would shortchange the prostitutes. He said that. When he would pick up the women, the women who usually drunk or on drugs. So then he would throw them up a rolled up one dollar Bill or a ten dollar Bill after sex, which called a Bronx role where you see where you sort of, like, you know, you see that sometimes where you put a twenty and then you put five singles and it looks like oh, it's one hundred dollars. Kind of thing. So that's, that's what that's what he was saying. He was he was doing and some of the women reported the crimes immediately others several days. But the women who waited to report the assaults told authorities that they didn't believe anything would be done because they were sex workers, and you see this, honestly, this happens so much, and all that people who are anti sex worker, I are sex workers. Most men. I know have have admitted to me, not even with shame that they have hired sex workers before route their life at one point, whether it's a bachelor party, or they were in Thailand, or this, or autumn Assad. Like it is so common. And the fact that they don't get any support or protection the support from law enforcement is crazy. It's one of the worst things that you see in law enforcement, it's starting to open up, and I think there are certain detectives that no. That, that, that there are some sex workers, that can be allies for them. They're definitely a lot of sex workers. Most of them are victims. There are other victims of guys that will come in and, and try to eventually, you know, really take over their business. It's essentially a fucking hostile takeover what they do. Yeah. One of the vice cops that I know they would set up a you see these, these stings for John's. So they set up a, a woman. Who's saying that she's looking for dates? Guys come to the hotel. They'll might pick up eight guys. And there's these guys that are just looking for days with these girl, but these other guys will come in, and they are two types of pimps, and their pimps that see there's a new woman or a new girl in town. What are they going to do? There's two types of Pam says, I is the Romeo pimp. The Romeo Pimm comes in and says, baby. I'm gonna take care of you. You're, you know, everything's gonna be great. It'd be exactly. And then there's what they and they actually call it the gorilla pimp, and the gorilla pimple come in and actually attack the woman beat the hell out of our and say, yes, your mind, now this happens, and it happens a lot, and it's starting to open up now talking with. Police are starting to realize that a lot of these women are not doing it for any kind of lifestyle choice. They're doing it because they have become addicted there become addicted on. Yeah. Or I mean, if they're from another, like they steal passports, these steal, ID's and cell phones where it's like trot, like you're not going out of my sight to you. Don't have a cell phone or any money. You know, you have no way to escape your wallet. I took your credit cards like you'd have to really literally run from me down a highway escape, so and then what? Yeah, exactly. So one of the women who was twenty two years old. She said that David had pointed a gun to her and said, put a good, right outer and said you're going to do what I want you to do or I'll shoot you. And he raped her stroke on the face again with a gun and stole a hundred fifty dollars from her, according to the police reports, and he learned lured, another woman into his car when he backed into a poll to gas station. The twenty year old did he do. Let me stop here. What that's just opportunistic like, right. He's just saw girl after he like back to car his car. I mean well, the no, you're talking about this. What I'm talking about. Yeah. So I'm like, did he her car? Purpose, because he saw grabby like do that, though. I think it was like, well, like yours like Ted Bundy kind of thing or it's like can you help me with this? I don't know. He's got a gun. He's not doing it like Bundy, right? I think it's like he saw hot girl, who was like, are you. Okay and oh well, this sounds good for me. Yeah. Sounds like he's like a mood swing operator. Like he's, I mean, the thing with his mom real quick. I, we haven't gotten into this the thing with his mom didn't sound premeditated to me. No. So I think he's just like a moody head like this reacts, extremely violent. And it's like I mean, the writings on the wall with Mariah saying that blood smear is from a fight with David a few weeks before. Yeah, not shocking and she's fifteen and it's your brother. So like your brother beats you up. Like, I think she's got this very skewed perception of, like what's okay. Now is your older brother kind like runs the show. You're a little brothers protective and controlling and like. Can throw you around like Nina older brothers. I don't know. I wrestled with my little sister,