1 Episode results for "Billy Holwell"
Ep 440 | Facing Demonic Forces & Spiritual Warfare | Guest: Billy Hallowell
"Hey guys welcome to relatable. Today i am talking to billy hollowell. He wrote a book called playing with fire. And it's about supernatural activity. Demonic possession satan satanic powers thinks so we don't necessarily talk about explicitly that much on this podcast or really in christian culture at all but he has uncovered why he thinks it's so important especially in this present moment for christians to understand that this is going on to see how this is going on and then for is with the power of christ to push back against this. I we're actually going to talk about a little political subject. But it'll tell together because he did not vote for trump in twenty twenty and so we're going to talk a little bit about our differences in our agreements there. So it's a really good conversation that i'm looking forward to hearing here. Is billy holwell belly. Thank you so much for joining me. I think a lot of people who are listening or watching already familiar with you and your work but just in case. Can you tell everyone who you are and what you do sure. Yeah so. i am a journalist. I'm a commentator. I actually worked at the blaze. I was the faith editor at the blaze for about a five years and some huge blaze fan and i've been working for really the last fifteen years more than fifteen years now in and so politics and faith in the last five to seven years. My focus has been culture and faith and just diving deep into patterns of what we see happening. Wyatt's happening and sort of helping people navigate that and you wrote a book called plane with fire and about supernatural activity and monica activity. And i want to get into all of that. And i'm super excited. That's going to be the boko. Lavar bulk of our episode. But something that you. And i have talked about on twitter before that we talked about a longtime ago discussing on. This podcast is your support. Then you're not support of donald trump and by support. I just kind of mean. The chew voted for him in two thousand sixteen. You did not vote for him and twenty twenty. And i'm just so interested to hear your reasoning on that because that's not something that i hear a lot of conservative christian. Say that they did. It's sort of the opposite right. You hear a lot of people. Say i didn't vote in two thousand sixteen and then i did in twenty twenty and so here's the thing i live in new york and i had said many times during the campaign and this is sort of sounds like a cop out but if i lived in a state where i felt like it really mattered i would have shown up in voted differently right and so i didn't vote for either trump or biden and i really struggled honestly with the entire thing and i think for me it was you know in two thousand sixteen. I sat down with trump two weeks before the election. he called a bunch of never trumpers to trump tower. And i have to tell you. I wasn't never trumper. I've never been never trumper. I've never been a pro pro. Pro rata trumper. But i sat there and listened to him. And i was really conflicted in two thousand sixteen as well. Not between the two candidates. I wasn't going to vote for hillary. But whether or not i wanted to put my name on this whole trump thing and so at the end of the day i felt like i wanted to give him a shot and i did it and i have to tell you hollister wise. I think it's really hard for a lot of conservatives. Of course we can pull out little bits and pieces of things. We don't agree with that. We don't like it's really hard to walk away and say oh. Trump did a terrible job on policy. I think you take the capital and all that other chaos no matter people think about that and push it to the side for me. His rhetoric has always been very problematic. And i am the first person to say you vote on policy. And so when i walked into the polls and i was voted in in two thousand and twenty. I honestly didn't know what i was gonna do. Walking in and i just prayed about it. And i felt like you know what i live in new york. I don't need to do this. And so i chose. I chose not to do it now. A lot of people have been very angry at me. But i make the point. It doesn't really matter. I live in new york. The state was going to biden. And so it was sort of an easy cop out for me so it wasn't based on any kind of principle or any reason other than you just didn't think that it was going to do anything. Well no of course for me. The principal was having having struggled with the rhetoric and having struggled with the behavior. You know. I've spent a lot of time looking at my own behavior in media. The things i've said when i started in media was fifteen years old. I'm thirty seven now. So i've been doing this for a long time. I've been out there talking and saying things and speaking for a very long time. And i don't know that for me i've i've always handled myself the way that i would want to right and so i looked back at that and i look at the way that trump is and for me. I just felt convicted. That i wasn't going to go out there. I wasn't going to support it. I'm not judging those who did. Listen i understand the reasons for supporting trump. i've been out of the strict politics world now for a couple of years and so i've had the flexibility to not have to dive into those discussions. If i don't want to and for me. I just really felt like i'm not going to do this. I'm not going to put my name on it. I'm not going to subscribe to it right now and having said all of that i know it. Sparks anger in some people have had a lot of conversations about this people who feel that people like me. Haven't help the problem right. We've made the problem worse because we haven't stood up and supported trump for me. It's about the policies. And i've always been very open and vocal on policy and i will continue to be pro-life policy. You know in conservative values. I just felt like in two thousand and twenty. I had i had the ability to not have to show up so for me. It was principal and it would have been a struggle for me to to go out there. And say i love donald trump. I love everything. Donald trump chance because the reality is. I agree with the policies but i don't love many of the things that donald trump as a person stands for and i i would agree with that. Everyone on this podcast knows how i feel about it. And i even have some people who have told me that you know i am the reason or i'm part of the reason why donald trump lost. Because there's i so often caveat him with you know. i love that. He did this. I am going to vote for him. I did vote for him. Two thousand and sixteen and twenty twenty based on the reasons that you just said. And so you and i both have the same kind of reasoning in the same kind of logic and feelings about trump i ultimately ultimately voted for him both times based on those policies that that we agree with but i very often offer the same kind of qualifications in caveat that you do that look. I don't like when trump says this. I don't like trump does this. I don't like this part about his character. I don't like when he did this or that tip a critical or that's not conservative or something like that in unfortunately a do a lot of people on the right end the left when it comes to their respective candidates really do want total puritanical support of their guy of their champion and they think any kind of coloring outside of those lines means that you want the destruction of america or you want the failure of that candidate or you precipitated. The failure of the candidate. And that's just not true. Do you agree. Well i do agree. And i will. I will tell you that looking at what has happened in the last month and a half two months looking at cancel culture looking at all of these things. It again brings that question. Is this the kind of america that you wanna live in. And i think people like me who really had that struggle right you kind of come back to well. What kind of policies do i wanna live under. We're having the debate about the equality. Act we're having all of these discussions now. And so. And i know that will kick me for saying this but my vote didn't really matter in this case i'm a new yorker. I know what it's like here. And i didn't feel compelled to stand up but i will tell you i feel compelled to stand up on those issues and when we have another election in two thousand twenty four and we have to look at this again. These are huge important issues and it makes me very nervous. Looking at the sort of culture that is being incubated in created by the people who are claiming to be so liberal and open when in reality they're not and so we've got big issues in this country but for me also i would say i came off of writing this book which we're going to talk about so i was looking at everything in a hyper spiritual way and as i was doing that i felt convicted to sort of pull myself away from politics a little bit and so it was kind of the perfect storm when the election head of me sort of saying i'm gonna and it's a little selfish right admittedly i'm gonna pull myself out of this right now and i really wanna put my focus on reaching people because at the end of the day we can debate politics and don't get me wrong. Politics are important all day long but if we don't start reaching people and this is from a christian perspective for christ there is going to be no change right and it has to start at the individual level and of course it has to move into the corporate level as well so there was a lot going on in my heart and in my mind during this election season and i would counter anybody out there. Who's getting angry or frustrated with people based on how they voted to actually sit down and talk about it. Because you and i probably agree on ninety nine percent of things and i think most of us do on the conservative side when we sit down and so that to me is the important starting place i i agree and i know plenty of people who didn't vote for either candidate either in two thousand sixteen or twenty twenty or both of obviously as a conservatives have someone who looks at these policies and looks at politics and talks about these things ally. It is harder for me to be as pathetic toward a vote directly for joe biden or or hillary clinton just because of the policies that are promoted there and that doesn't mean though that i think that those people you know i've revoked their salvation card which thankfully i do not have the responsibility nor the ability to do or that. I don't think that they were well. Meaning people you can still you. You can still though say and. I know that you agree with this that you know. I think that that was a wrong choice. They probably think that. I had a wrong choice to but i do think it's important for christians to sit down and to have those conversations and i have talked to a lot of christian to who voted for joe biden. There's not a single reason that i agree with that. I think is a good logical reason. Just to be honest but i still don't. I still not in a place. Nor do i have the desire to say. Well that means that you're not a believer or that means that you don't really love god. Maybe they're maybe we just have difference of opinion. Maybe or maybe they. They really are just wrong. I do think directly voting for pro abortion and policies in the equality act and all of that is actually very tangibly and clearly wrong but thank goodness. We are not judged ultimately by our vote. Unfortunately there are people who identify as christians on the republican and the democratic side. Who really think that we are. And i just praised the lord that that's not the case well and here's the thing right. We talk about cancel culture which i love to call cancer culture because it infection everything and yeah i mean the left is so guilty of this but it is happening a little bit on the ray and happening in these arenas of if you didn't support trump bri and you're just going to cancel those people we need to get rid of them and i think we have to be really careful that while we're calling the left out that we don't do the same thing on the right and so i agree with everything you just said i think for me. I can't possibly grasp what would what would make a christian be passionate about joe biden's policies and who joe biden is. I mean it's just it doesn't it doesn't add up for me. It's one thing to say. Somebody's a nice guy. Or i think he's a good guy and you may think that but at the end of the day you have two things to really base a vote. On in my view a platform policies that are laid out and then you actually have the policies themselves that had been enacted so when it comes to those things particularly on the life issue on identity and what we see happening throughout our culture right now to me as a christian. Now i'm not. I'm going to do the same thing you're doing. I'm not going to say you can't be. I know of christians. Who voted for joe biden. Because they were so disgusted with the rhetoric and the things they saw coming from trump but for me again it goes back to those hallmarks of the platforms in the policies. Yeah and you. You mentioned that when you were kind of decided on your vote in what you're gonna do. You're coming off of writing this book playing with fire. And you're kind of in this hyper or describe like this hyper spiritualized perspective. And i think it's good for us to have always that eternal and supernatural perspective of things that are going on that might not mean that we all land in the same place as christians even having that perspective but it is important for us to think about things eternally in to think about things spiritually. You've touched on this spiritual subject of demonic activities to per natural activity that a lot of people don't think about we don't like to think about. We don't like to talk about pastors. don't talk about. There's not very many books on this subject. And yet i get a lot of questions about this subject about okay like what is how what is satan. What power demons. Actually have. Because there's a rise in in witchcraft. There's a rise in the new age especially among young women and so christians are like okay. Hang on what does the spiritual realm of good versus evil. Actually really look like so. Can you talk. just summarize. I guess a little bit about why you wrote this bulk and thibout yes. We're playing with fire. This was a book that there was another publisher a few years back that this idea came about of doing journalistic exploration from a christian lens but as journalists sort of diving into this topic and at the time i moved away from it we had a book offer and i was like you know what i prayed about it. I just felt like. I'm more into politics right now. Of course i care about faith. I'm a lifelong christian. But i don't want to touch this dark topic and so it felt very dark to me. I moved away from it. And i have to tell you that god has a way of bringing us back to the things he wants us to do. And so i basically had a book offer dropped on my lap to do this a couple of years after the original book offer and i sat on it for two months just praying about it and thinking about it and for me even when i worked at the blaze we would sometimes get these stories right. You'd get these mainstream outlets that we're covering possession stories and so i was always intrigued by it and we would cover them and we do our due diligence to try to understand what people were claiming had happened but i realized there was this profound disconnect between the claims that people were making right and the things we see in the bible and what is being talked about not only in secular circles but christian circles and when i went to write playing with fire we did survey research among church leaders and it was really remarkable to see that the vast majority of church leaders would say. Yeah we believe in demons. Yeah we believe that by the way church leaders are not just passers people who are in bible studies and all sorts of different leadership positions. But they say we believe all this we know it impacts culture but then when you'd ask the question is your church talking about this enough the vast majority would say no and so that disconnect for me. I really felt compelled obviously to work on this project. As i prayed about it but i became intrigued by that because i thought gosh i don't think there's another topic talked about so frequently in scripture particularly the new testament and spoken about so infrequently in churches and that is concerning because at the end of the day hollywood and this is sort of remarkable at the same time. Churches are talking less about this. You've got hollywood. Churning out the conjuring the conjuring to all these demon possession movies right again and again and again and so hollywood is actually improperly. But they're talking about a topic more so than the churches and it's actually a church topic so that was sort of thing that really helped me into this. Yeah so let's talk about demonic activity and the power that satan actually has honest. Let's start with the specific question. So i don't leave it. So open ended. One question that i get a lot is to satan. Have control of your mind contain. Read your thoughts to satan. Have control of your thoughts. Let's start there and kind of move outwards. Can you answer that question. Yeah it's really interesting. I guess the answer to the question is how much have you allowed satan into your life right and so the thing in talking with so many theologians and pastors i mean the general premise. Here is that you go back to a vision. Six right and for me. A fusion six is such a fascinating chapter because it tells us everything we need to know about good and evil and it's encapsulated in just a few verses but it tells us we're in a battle over good and evil that what protects us from that battle taking up. The shield of faith is being christians living a christian lifestyle. It's not just saying. I'm a christian. It's living out having a relationship with christ so when people ask that question. Generally i find that people are afraid. They're fearful of these things and they want to understand. Can satan my mind. You know what. I'm doing. And as christians the answer would be no. You're protected if you're living that lifestyle if you are somebody who has opened yourself up to two evil will then we're talking about a little bit of a different story and so there's a really wide scale of stories that you encounter and when you look in scripture see really really extreme examples possession right. We see children. We see adults. We see jesus healing people and we see some of the effects of what possession looks like in scripture. But we're also given a lot of pieces of advice from the olds in the new testament about what we should be avoiding of voiding. Witchcraft avoiding psychics. Avoiding all of these things that pop culture actually praise it as an you as you mentioned. We're seeing increases in all of these things. And i know a lot of people listening by the way even in the conservative world. They'll hear some of this. They'll think oh this is silly. This isn't real but the reality. Is you have a scenario. When i talk about this and playing with fire aware since the beginning of time this has been a common experience the idea that there is obviously a spiritual round but not just that the idea that there is evil and that evil can affect you and i know. I'm giving a very long winded answer here. But it's actually very complicated when you open yourself up to these things. You really are playing with fire. You're potentially transforming your life in a very negative way. Just like as christians open ourselves up to true we accept. Christ we are on the opposite end opening ourselves up to something really wonderful right. So they're polar opposite dynamics but there are so many credible and also incredible healing stories in the mix of all that all right quick break to tell you about good ranchers good ranchers since you quality american meat to your front door. 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Elilott as it pertains to countries in africa or even haiti when people think about witchcraft. They kind of think about. I think Third world countries or the eastern world. They don't think about things that are happening or trends that we see here in the west. And when we hear about demonic activity or demonic possession it seems to typically comes come from cultures like that. So what does demonic possession looked like today in our own cultural context. Because i can't believe that it's only happening in certain countries and wouldn't be happening here. Yeah well you know. It's really interesting about that. As i was working on the book and talking with pastors in priests and individuals who are dealing with this on a daily basis believe it or not there are deliverance pastures and there are ministers who deal of the catholic church in exercises and then the catholic church has obviously the rite of exorcism which we can talk about but in america. We've had a really interesting heritage here right. we've had this judeo christian underpinning and even though we're moving away from that and we're seeing the effect of that it's fascinating to look back at that history. I think in a lot of ways because christianity has been so even if it's just nominal ingrained in who we are. We often don't see these sorts of things but it doesn't mean they're not happening and to give an example. All of these experts told me that they have seen massive increases and actually the catholic church is openly said this in requests for help meaning that there are people whether or not they're truly dealing with these issues they believe they are and that is increasing. So as you sort of map out that move away from faith in america which i think is really fascinating. You know this and talking about culture. We see all these bizarre things happening in culture but we also see at the same time that people are experiencing more and more spiritual duress as that unfolds. And so we've had a number of stories in america. In fact one is very famous in gary indiana back in two thousand fourteen. There was a major news story and what was so unique about this story was that it made its way into the indianapolis star. This is a mainstream media outlet that had collected so much data and information on this alleged possession story that they were able to publish a really well sourced article and that article went international. But it was really intriguing to see. And i talk about this particular case in gary indiana. Quite a bit in the book to see that one of these things actually making its way into the mainstream so the short answer to that is you have a lot of practices going on in other places. You have a lot of things. That are happening there spiritually and you talk to missionaries. They will tell you. They've experienced those things. I think we're also having that happened more here. And i'd be really intrigued. Map out as we move further away from faith a development. I wish wasn't happening. How much more of these sorts of requests for help we see unfold. And i wonder if it may. If something like demonic possession or demonic influence must it might just look differently than we imagined. It looks in other cultures and countries. Obviously something can be demonic. Evily influenced if it's not of god period that doesn't necessarily mean someone Convulsing or someone having to have you know. Holy water as we see in the movies being thrown on them and their bodies thrashing right right. It might not look like that. But i think that we do need to normalize to use a term. That is a word that's used so often. Now normalize seen the supernatural in the natural. And i do wonder from your perspective. Is there though a danger in that. Like is there a balance in describing spiritual significance to every single thing that happens or is that the right way to view things is okay. There's no neutral ground. Everything is either claimed by christ or counterclaimed by satan. At least in the in the here and now on earth we know that christ ultimately rains and defeats satan and send forever. So what is the right way to like. Look at things because sometimes seems like we can over spiritualize or super naturalized things as well but we also don't want to miss it when it is actually spiritual and eternal on supernatural. That's such a such a good question and there's two things okay. The first thing i was. I was in a debate recently with an atheist michael shurmur. He's a prominent atheist and we were talking about whether or not demons existed. It was a great conversation but as we were having this discussion. It's so interesting how we breakdown natural versus supernatural and we all do this right. We were like okay. That's a natural thing right. Existence is a natural thing and everything else over here is supernatural. But i've actually started thinking more about that and it's so fascinating to me that we live in a world and we live in a universe where if the earth was off of its access just a little bit weed burner freeze. You've got trees got flowers. You have all these amazing systems right. The human body is incredible. And so we're actually living super naturally but yet we assume it's just natural and i think atheists tend to do this a lot. They're like yeah. Well that's that's for this weird category over here and it's like well actually. It's all weird like the fact that have consciousness that were sitting here talking in the way that we are that we have all of this existence before us that points to a creator. It's all supernatural. And so i just wanted to mention that because i think it actually refrains the way that we think about some of this but to more specifically answer your question. The thing that i encountered a lot in researching this topic is just like you were stating there are two dynamics. There's the demon under every rock right. Those are the people who they think everything is demonic. Every bad decision every disease every illness. If it's cancer there are some people who believe cancer is caused by demons and then you have the other dynamic which is what we were talking about before and that sort. The demons aren't responsible for anything they don't exist. They're not around anymore or just don't care i'm not going to think about it. And there's a middle ground that you have to strike with this to understand again you go back to that fusion six chapter that we are living in a battle whether we like it or not whether people want to admit it or not. We have this battle of good and evil. And we're in the middle of this every human being is and so to your point before when you were sort of asking about the different ways this manifest itself we tend to talk about possession because it's the strangest and it's the most stark and we see those stories obviously in scripture. But we also see that demonic influence is totally different and more pervasive thing for most people. Possession is very uncommon and even the catholic church and products in to deal with. This will tell you that the majority of cases that come to them when they investigate them they find something else going on there right whether it's a mental condition whether it's some other explanation that doesn't mean it doesn't exist it exists. It's just not as often as we think but what is very common is the affliction of having evil come into our life our life in some way or seize on some struggle that we're having it was interesting to talk with mental health providers about addiction and so many of the people who i spoke with they would say well. Listen you know. I very very infrequently would encounter somebody who had addiction who didn't have a spiritual issue going on alongside and so that obviously is a major issue of debate and i spent a lot of time talking to mental health providers. Because i wanted to understand that dynamic because this is an area when you talk about what's demonic. What's not were. A lot of confusion happens the mental illness versus possession or at least investigation debate. So so there's a lot going on there but we wanna we wanna have discernment and we want to make sure that we know what we're dealing with when it comes to spiritual matters. Yes i think that that explains it really well and there is a balanced because obviously if we ascribe every sickness or cancer or addiction to some kind of specific demonic possession then that could lead to a faulty mentality about people who get sick and somehow blaming it on them. What did you do to open yourself up to this kind of demonic force. And i don't think that kind of thing is supported by scripture at all and unfortunately we do see that kind of wedding of kind of weird a- cultic new age practices with some forms of of christianity. Unfortunately and i think we do have to be discerning at the same time we understand that every bit of sadness and sorrow in sickness and corruption in sin in this world is due to evil and is due to the fall so like you were saying. It's not specific demonic possession. That causes these things but it is evil. I mean as a fijian's two says satan is the prince of the power of the air so he does have jurisdiction no more than got allows but he does have jurisdiction and evil in satanic forces. In general sense is the reason for you. Know every nationality and every injustice and every kind of of trespass. I think the hope that we have both in the present and but ultimately in the future is that god is going to take care of all of that. He is going to right those wrongs and he is going to defeat satan insane once and for all thankfully in the new heaven and the new earth. We won't be having this conversation about sin in satan a demonic power and so rather than being scared christians can be aware and and we can also be super helpful. Absolutely i mean. That's that's the whole thing. And so when. I when i was putting this book together my end goal was not to freak people out or scare them. You know. Playing with fire is filled with stories of people who have dealt with possession. They've dealt with spiritual issues. They've overcome them. There are pastors. There are people who on the mental health side. As i mentioned who talk about what they've experienced but i wanted to point people back to hope. Because what you just said is so true and one of the things for me in writing a book where you pull things out of the bible that only deal with evil. I was actually getting this opportunity. Which i know sounds strange. So look at okay. Who is satan. What is what is jesus. Tell us about satan. What are the scriptures. Tell us about evil. And let's look at all the stories and put that altogether what it actually did for me. And i'm not gonna lie to you. I was afraid to write the book. I know i mentioned. I said no the first time. And then i sat on the contract for two months after i was reading and then after i felt this incredible piece because it actually points you back toward good understanding evil points as back to our need for grace and for me. I felt like there was such a big piece missing in the understanding of what all of this actually means and it feels weird. And i'm a journalist so by nature. I like to question things. I want to be proven. I want somebody to give me details. And facts and to prove to me that their experience is real and so having that chance to sort of vet these stories and go into them and then to present them to say listen. You don't have to believe these things. I'd encourage atheist to pick up the book and read it because it helps you understand from a christian perspective. What we believe as christians. It's really refining and really helpful to get that full picture. That i think sometimes our churches and we're part of this too as christians. We sort of fell one another in not talking about it because it feels weird or we don't want to be looked at strangely. I mean hollywood's got no problem talking about it and of course they think it's fake. They think it's not true many of them but they're presenting and yet we have these incredible opportunities to really help people because if you are dealing with evil in some form and by the way most of us do at some point in our life we're dealing with this you know this pressure that evil can inflict even on christians lives and we don't know how to properly deal with that. That's how you really run into problems. Not only individually but corporately and as a culture taking break. Tell you guys about. This is a really great company. A really awesome service that you need to look into. So you might not know that the reason why you don't have to pay for g mail or some of those big e mail providers is because you're actually paying with your privacy. You're paying with your data. 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Aliases this protects your main email address from spam and phishing attacks. they can generate a sharable alias. Email so people can't sell your information and all of can be deleted at any time you're cybersecurity has never been more at risk so make sure you protect yourself. You make sure that you protect all of the information that you keep in your emails. Which i know is a lot by going to start. Mail dot com. That's start mail dot com slash alley for fifty percents off your first year that start meal dot com slash alley. Start mail dot com slash alley. I think there's also an opportunity. You said that hollywood presents this stuff is not real. I've also seen a lot of. I'm especially in like the young woman. Influencers south help round that there are a lot of women who are open to the existence of the supernatural leading them into On double coal kind of like a cultic type practices where they think that their supernatural power in crystals. Their supernatural power in. You know chuckers whatever it is this strange new age stuff that they actually do see some kind of empowerment from yes. That's dangerous but it's also an opportunity for christians to say you know i. I know where the real power lies like. You want supernatural power. You're right it exists and is absolutely out there yes. We are in a battle between good and evil which a lot of new people think but like let me read iraq gio towards the truth. Let me redirect you towards reality. let me show you the true rock. Not your crystals that don't have any supernatural power but here crystal thing is crazy by the way this is blowing up everywhere and it's remarkable to watch this void and you know this as we move away from god as this void more and more because everybody i mean. God made us to connect with him. And we don't do that when we choose not to do that. We have. there's a void and we're going to fill it with something and we're watching culture scramble right now to fill the void with all sorts of things that i think actually feed off of this sort of evil and this evil actually vice versa feeds off of and so the crystals have been fascinating to watch. And i've seen some christians who i know who have just descended completely into this world and so you're right. It's a real opportunity to connect with people in to talk about it. And i've had people coming to me emailing me sharing stories. I can't tell you how many people are afraid to share their story. They're afraid to talk about the things they've gone through in this arena whether they've gone into crystals or other things or whether they went through what they believe was a possession or some sort of spiritual affliction and i would encourage people to be there and to have these conversations because a lot of people have these stories when you look at the polling data among americans not just christians you have almost half of the population experiencing this sort of thing or believing that it exists and so it's not as weird as we think it is. We know if we believe the bible. Okay if we believe scripture we absolutely cannot ignore all of these stories throughout scripture. And i use the word stories lightly because we believe these things happened of jesus confronting these things and by the way not wanna tangent but if if people are going to say well this ended with. Jesus you know there were. There was no more evil demonic force walking around after jesus came while we see an act sixteen. We see paul dealing with this with this slave woman. Who's following him around. Who by the way has a spirit that allows her to be a fortune teller. Essentially a psychic and say and i had i had never noticed that story but i found it fascinating because i've encountered many christians who believe that these issues ended with jesus. Well they didn't and there are a lot of stories today even in our country that show that that is not the case. Yes and i think christians just have to be discerning in even if something does it seem explicitly satanic or explicitly demonic like playing with fire. As as you've said Leads probably two more explicit forms or more obvious forms of demonic activity. There's a reason why in the old testament like god warranties people against a sears against six and we see like you said that that is actually a demonic spirit. In the new testament there are a lot of. Christians are professing christians who are interested in their zodiac signs. They're interested in tarrant cards. They ascribe supernatural power to things. That don't have supernatural power. There are some christians. I know this is controversial. But who ascribe way too much power and authority to things like the india graham and i just think they are obsessed with that thing. It's like okay. You know i well. It's just these not to interrupted. But these are we start to put our faith in these things start to put our reliance in these things even the ouija board which everybody laughs. Whenever it's brought up. I did i did a chapter on it and i was even laughing about. I mean i never touched ouija board. I always knew as a christian growing up. Stay away from them. You don't wanna mess with it but when you go into the history of the wage board and you start to look at where it came from and all of these details about the fact that there was a medium involved in actually creating it you walk away and you say gosh. These are tools that people are using to put their faith in something else and many times. We're desperate we want to connect with the dead loved one you know. And that's it preys on those sorts of desperation and instead of putting our faith in christ we start to put our faith in any of the things you just mentioned or the ouija board or whatever it is it's gonna give us that immediate satisfaction when again it needs to be in something higher and above ourselves yes amen and thankfully that longing that we all have for something bigger for something spiritual. That's something that god placed in all of us. That's not something that you have argued so well like that. We need to just turn off and just deny exists but that spiritual curiosity that we have is thankfully satisfied in the spiritual reality that is stick -tated by god himself and his founding. Christ can you tell people again and how they can follow you where they can find your book anything else. You want to direct them to earn anything else. You want to say as well absolutely yes so if you go to playing with fire book dot com you can grab it. It's at walmart and amazon. And all the places that you know books are sold. And i would just encourage people and by the way you could follow me at billy hollowell to my website and all the socials but i would just say for anybody. Who's curious about the topic. Who wants to know more about it. Obviously grab the book but but really look at our culture. Look at what is happening around us. It is not a coincidence. That we're watching chaos ensues as we're moving more away from faith and don't be afraid to really dive in understand what is going on because i think it's so easy for us to get consumed by the politics to get consumed not that we shouldn't care. Don't misread me here but to get consumed with all of these details outside of truth outside of the gospel and it's really easy a material world and we all fall prey to this to assume that everything we're seeing is all this happening before us but there is a lot more going on behind. The scenes is a spiritual battle. Scripture tells us this and if we don't acknowledge that that's how we find ourselves again individual and cultural trouble and right now we are cultural trouble and i know. A lot of people are struggling. A lot of people are afraid people are looking at what's going on and they're wondering what the future holds and i've really come in the last year or two to really fall into my faith and to realize that at the end of the day no matter what is going on around us crisis what matters most and that that's the message we need to get to other people and so i would just encourage people that understanding evil point back to truth and i appreciate you having me on today. Yeah and just to tell a bill on this loop back to how we started this conversation. It's important for christians as well to remember who the true enemy as. It's not fellow. Christians with with whom we have political disagreements all those those political disagreements like you've said in like i believe are very important and should be talked about and can be disgust a right and a wrong to those things so i'm certainly not saying that they don't matter but at the end of the day satan of course would love to distract us from who the true enemy is and for us to believe that everyone who disagrees with us is on his side so we kind of forget in off the skate. Who the real enemy is and not is satan and sin and thankfully we have a victory and unity by the way Increased and. I think that is the hope. Also that your message brings to thank you. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you for writing this book. Even though you did so with some trepidation. I know that it's going to help. A lot of people will make sure to link it in the description to this podcast. So thank you again. Thanks so much for having me.