20 Episode results for "Bhutto"
"Hello I'm far just sat and I'm the producer of how I found my voice. A pod cost by intelligence squared. We hope you enjoyed this absurd but just before the main event I wanted to let you know that this season season of how I found my voice is sponsored by the out an innovative premium car rental service powered by Jaguar Landrover. If you live in London like me and want to get out of the city easy for a weekend the out is designed for us. It's a premium car rental service without the hassle. Just download the APP but you'll vehicle and a call will be delivered to your doorstep within three three hours of booking when you're done the COBB also be picked up from your chosen location. My colleague recently is the service. I loved how easy it was. He went on a last minute. We can trip to Brighton. Easing a Land Rover Discovery Sport. They have a whole range of premium vehicles to choose from including the Range Rover Sport and the Electric Jaguar. I pace in every king. You get unlimited mileage additional drivers philly comprehensive insurance and even the congestion and dot charging pleaded. So if you're a Londoner who wants to rent a car and style download. Download the APP today. Now let's go to this week's episode and when my father stepped out of the car to ask what was happening signal was given to shoot to commence firing and my father and six other men were for killed that night. uh power is incredibly corrosive. Corrosive for us with my father was a threat to her. My father was a critic okay. My aunt was killed years later on. So there's no chance to ask her. Hello and welcome to how I found my voice podcast from intelligence squared. I'm Samir Amira. Ahmed and I'm going behind the celebrity persona to find out what influences shaped their success. How politicians artists writers and performers grow? Grow Up to become such great communicators. If you enjoy this podcast please take a moment to rate and review us on Apple podcasts. Fatima Bhutto is a journalist and novelist and a real citizen of the world. Born in Kabul raised in Syria an educated in New York and London and she joins me. Now you've reported from Lebanon from Iran from Cuba and you are an activist. I love reading. Your social media feeds full of an forthright comments about everything from religious extremism to Feminism A to Western anti Muslim hypocrisy. You're lost novel. The runaways was a sensitive an engaging thriller about teenagers drawn into joining Dinesh. And your latest book canoe. Can you kings of the world is dispatches about the global impact of Bollywood of Turkish traumas and South Korean K pop. I have to mention. Of course the FAMILY NAME BHUTTO UTAH. Which carries quite some residents is one of the most well known political dynasties in Pakistan? Your Grandfather Zulfikar Ali Bhutto with the first democratically elected. Prime Prime Minister of the country was overthrown in a military coup and he was executed. And I remember that day. It said that the history of the Bhutto family mirrors the history of Pakistan. Why didn't you feel about such a a claim? But thank you for. Thanks for coming on to talk about how you found your voice. I want to take you back to the start. So you're born in Kabul in in a household where your father was essentially in exile. Wasn't he from Zero Hawks military regime but he was planning. Would it be a revolution with your uncle. Well thank Samir for that welcome and introduction. It's hard to begin seeking after all that. My father was in exile in Afghanistan on. He was resisting getting the military dictatorship. He was a very young man. He was twenty eight years old when I was born. But he was twenty five years old When by his salons upward path was halted and halted quite brutally by a military dictatorship essentially stopped the momentum that Bison in had been building for itself was an incredibly young country at the time and genucel Hukou was a CIA back? Dictator just brutalized the society so there was mass. Censorship mass arrests public floggings journalists were rounded up in whipped stadiums and. My father was one of the political young by Kazan at the time of resisting the dictatorship actively but I would say my birth go to bid him the way it sounds like a very tense time and it certainly it was before I was born. He left Afghanistan soon afterwards. You to Damascus. And we moved to Damascus. And you lived there 'til you were twelve. So what was that the timeline. Yeah we live they said I was twelve and my father becomes a single father on his life is now haircuts for little girls and bedtime stories and and teaching me how to read and write and we had a pretty strange but also a normal fund childhood Syria at the time was quite a closed closed society and I wrote about this a little bit in new kings of the world. It was a time when you couldn't really get very much except the BBC World Service News on the radio. They should've been the one thousand nine hundred eighty eight exactly and so we got our news on the radio from the BBC. But you couldn't really pick up western newspapers or things things like that at the same time of course. Western culture was unavoidable. So you you've got all the Eddie Murphy movies or Episodes of Dallas and cheers and and things like that. It was an unusual time but I do a Happy Childhood in Syria. Will you mentioned you. Father was a single dad so what was happening in your family among why parents divorced divorced When I was quite young about three years old and I was very attached to my father and so I I opted quite easily? He and he he became my father and mother and baby sitter and best friend and and everything rolled into one and I really credit him actually. They would so much because being raised by father who never told you there any limits to what you could do or should do was incredibly liberating and and strangely remains till this this day. There is a fearlessness about that. Comes off so early on meets. You and I'm guessing now this back to just the environment that your father created at home the yes he did this incredible thing which was that. He never lied to me so he never pretended that things were not frightening at times and in fact spoke quite freely around on me so I knew things like dictatorship and martial law and a new these words at a young age and I knew that bad things that happened in my family and I I could see my father's pain and he never hid his feelings either so I I saw him struggle but at the same time he was somebody who loved life and and enjoy life and was curious about the world and and so he didn't teach me to be afraid. He taught me to be unafraid. But at the same time to be vulnerable as well and I. It's amazing that even today I mean I'm thirty seven now. My father was killed when I was fourteen. But it's those lessons that really I have with me today and that's a keep pushing me forward. You obviously have very positive febreeze but I was thinking you know for someone especially for a girl to be growing up without her mom. Your father remarried Lebanese woman fascinated by what that was like because obviously he then straightway have a culturally mixed at you. Well I guess. Our home was always culturally mixed because my father's mother was Iranian and so there was already that we then were living in Syria. I growing up as a child of exile. I thought I was Syrian. Essentially and my father was always reminding me that it wasn't and not only that I wasn't but that that this was temporary so I would you know put a post drop on my wall as a kid and he would say. Oh No don't put that. We're we're leaving soon. Okay what we live here now and he would say no no no. It's not for long. And and so that created strains of being being somewhere and not not being. They're wrong how interesting. It's that being almost a professional exile. Yeah waiting to go back to Pakistan all the time were that. My father lives constantly in in that in that limbo and he would say to me. You know we're going to go home. We're going to go home and I would say when he was a soon really soon but then I realized there was no soon you know and I would mode press a bit more this year. And he's yes this year and the year would pass and we wouldn't leave and so I started to ignore his his Predictions of when we would go home and and then one year he happened to be right and he said it and that was the year we left or year was that that was nineteen ninety-three so I was eleven at the time and he decided to contest elections in Pakistan and return home after sixteen years of of exile. And I thought okay. We'll find if you know if he doesn't win we won't go back and you know he's going to win and he did win and so sort of overnight tonight. We had to start making preparations to leave and at the same time as that was true. Remind us what he won. He won A seat in the assembly from Larkana which had been my my grandfather's seems like an MP exactly like an MP and he was going to go go back and he had always lived with Pakistan even when he was away from it so he was spoke about it in very romantic terms about the C.. You know Caribbean Sea and the smell of salt in the air. All the food so in a way it was like returning home even though it had never been a home for me at least not up until that point and so one thousand nine hundred three. We went back to listen. I want you take back a little bit before that to say. When did you first realize having the PUTO name was significant? This is the Bhutto heartland. Generations have lived here. The bhuttos belong to the country's futile ruling class. I the family is one of the largest and most powerful in the province of Sindh August donkey coin card in the heat cooked up to try to to fathom the BHUTTOS lasting influence. This is the place to start. Well I knew things that happened in our family and I had seen some things happen in our family so I understood that there was something around us. What did you seen happen? Well I mean I saw that. My father was exile that I was growing up in a country that that wasn't mine. Mine my father's brother. My uncle was killed when I was three years old We were all there when it happened. So how'd that high. I was poisoned. And his wife was then jailed of of not coming to the aid of dying man so sorry he died very slow death breath and his wife had been in the House the whole time and had not alerted the police or call for an ambulance so so yeah. I knew these things were happening getting around us. I didn't quite connect them. What maybe I did but not consciously I suppose? The first time I realized there was something was the first time I went Augustan. which is when I was seven years old and that was the first time I saw this country only heard about and that my father had sort of dreamed and about all these years and they're understood that there were people who knew who this family was and it meant something to people maybe good things maybe bad things but but something nonetheless? I'm wondering what you were like going to school functions on Because you orange confident campaign I see speaking out on saving issues gates hypocrisy in American gun control on the way. Hollywood celebrates white savior stories. We always like like. This is a child's yeah. I'm afraid I want. I'm afraid I was. I was a sensitive todd I think but at the same same time I was always outspoken. And no one told me I shouldn't be No you speak up about God Trying to think now I mean I understood myself to be an adult and people spoke to me like I wasn't adult so it depended I mean I I used to get agitated about. I mean when I was a child growing up in Syria in the first grade we started Language Bridge lessons and all the native Arabic speakers went into the native class and all the foreigners went into the foreigner class You know the colloquial Arabic lessons and I went into the native class and my father said Oh no no no. You shouldn't be eight. Plus you're not Arab. You should go into the forest last so he moved me to the colloquial class and I moved myself back to the native speaker class because I thought I'm not going to go to a lower level of language class. Just because you you want me to stay foreign little things like that but But I but I always wanted to learn and I wanted to know what was wrong with things why they were wrong. Could they be better. Because also can I say someone who shares a Pakistani heritage. I picked up a sense of a kind of racism that exists in in. Some Indians. Pakistanis that are somehow crew to people they are less of value and I wonder if that was something. You were aware of in gray up in Syria. No I mean. I think my father was afraid that I well. I knew things that happened in our family. Father I did it on purpose where he just of other but but so what. I went into the native speaker classes and panicked and thought you know you you. You don't actually live here you. You're actually just visitor. So those were little things. He used to I didn't know why panic about but no it wasn't a racist in that sends. My father was given shelter released so Syria Syria was was a refuge was a haven but no I didn't think so. My father was a head to quite international upbringing in that sense and like me had one those sort of odd accents neither here nor there so he could fit in places and he loved to travel so we didn't have that at home. We didn't have that at home but in fact it was the opposite to be up by his attorney in Syria was an unusual thing because people haven't really encountered South Asian so they thought what they thought. There was only one kind of south Asian and they hides I guess the usual stereotypes people would have about South Asians and I think well I mean you all eat certain food or you know you will sound a certain way everyone does that stupid accent from approved who the simpsons accident you and they wonder why you don't speak like that I remember like I guess the same thing. Anyone who grows up outside their country feels like my grandmother. Mother came to visit at. Oh my body is here. which is you know your father's mother and people were like your Daddy? They make fun of you for Ice Week so actually the opposite. I had that kind of thing. Okay I want to ask about something Difficult when she's you in your home and your father was murdered he. He was assassinated on the road. Outside your house. This is in Karachi Pakistan after you'd move back of fourteen and you heard the gunshots to modify ask what what you remember about that night. Yeah I remember everything really about that. Night It was a very tense time because my father was a very outspoken critic of the government on his book a lot about the corruption of the state and the violence of state forces and at that time in the early to mid nineties. They were a spate of extra-judicial killings in Karachi in particular. I mean some three thousand people were killed by the police. In what they called. Encounter killings an encounter means the police turn up in an area to arrest someone. This was the police version. Of course that person resisted and and they got shot in the back. Bhutto's last activity one of defiance a news conference to condemn police who charged over recent violence. I challenge them to come in a recipe. If they can face the consequences afterwards political consequence but the consequences now will be far greater than he envisaged after a shootout the began when police stopped his vehicle and two others on their way home. Say the government at the time was has been by your aunt. Yes tense writes. My father's eldest older sister Benazir Bhutto was the was the prime minister at the time. And they they didn't have a good relationship. My father is very critical of of of her own own corruption and we started to feel the things were so few something sinister in the in the week before my my father was killed. It had always been very tense city and it was a tense time But I ha- started to be around. They started to put armored cars around the house. You know one day there was one armored vehicle. The next day they were to the day the three so we were expecting something in my father had said that they were going to try and arrest him him and he packed a little bag with books and things he wanted to read. And and that's what we thought might happen or at least that's what it looked like. Sigmund happened but he was coming back from an election. I'm actually election rally but a public meeting on the outskirts of Karachi and when when he was Reaching the road of our house he was stopped. There were about one hundred policemen on the roads that night some were in trees trees and sniper positions and they had closed all the streetlights and they had moved all the guards of nearby residences and embassies into their house and when my father stepped out of the car to ask what was happening signal was given to shoot to commence firing and my father and six other men were killed that night. They were shot multiple times and then left to bleed on the road. They left there for about an hour and when they were moved there were not move to hospitals they were moved to clinics and know whether could treat a gunshot wound because the aim was was to kill these men and I was at home. I was waiting for my father in his in his bedroom. Actually and so. We heard everything when we tried to leave a house. We were told by the police. There'd been a robbery in the neighborhood that we had standards. I'm so sorry. Thank you One of the last promises you'd you'd make your father was about telling his story wasn't it. Yes my father was was killed two days after his birthday and he had just turned forty forty two years old and we'd come back from a birthday dinner and even very quiet at dinner and my father was never quiet. He was always talkative and he was very quiet and we came home and I started to ask him about his life. And if you had any regrets what did he remember from certain periods things like that and as we were talking to you really have to write a book and he loved loved riding my father and he loved reading and he said No. No no no no you you do it. You write my book for me and very excited that he would think of that. Oh trust me me and I got a pen and a paper and he said no no. No when I'm gone not now. I had no idea that it'd be an endangered. But but my father had encouraged courage my writing from a very young age on encouraged me not only to read but but also to write. I wanted to be a writer really at that point so it remained in the back of my mind and I always felt it was a promise I owed my father but also as a promise I was scared to have to fulfil. I didn't want I want to do it in a sense because it would mean really that he was gone. There was no one else to do it but me and so it was almost almost ten years later that I started. I started slowly the work of research that then became songs of blood and sword on the nights nights that your father died. You ran your aunt Benazir didn't you. I did when we we were not allowed to leave the house. You know. This isn't the days before cell phones and twitter and satellite news and all that so we had no idea what had happened. But my father wasn't coming home and we were waiting and expecting him and expect him. Anew started to get nervous and I called the Prime Minister's House to talk to my aunt. find out what had happened thinking. Maybe he'd been arrested and I remember the ADC. The secretary came on the line and and was already was already saying to me. I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I'm so sorry I didn't know what he was talking about so I just kept reading that I needed to talk to him and he kept telling me he was sorry and the anti connected. Connect me not to my aunt but to my aunt's husband Asif Zardari and It was the guy who told me that I couldn't speak week to my aunt when I insisted and said it was very urgent something had happened. I need to talk to my aunt. He said. Don't you know your father has been shot. That's totally found out. You blame your aunt. Don't you well my aunt. Certainly has a responsibility in the aftermath of the killing all all the witnesses and survivors were arrested. But none of the police were Again in the immediate aftermath tribunal. Oh was put forward by the government that was to investigate the assassination but that had no legal power to pass. Sentence that tribunal was organized by my aunt and even though it had no legal power to pass sentence it concluded that the assassination could not have been carried out except with approval from the highest bench of government. That would would be her and unfortunately the way she continued to conduct yourself didn't lend itself to any any of innocence. Why was the case? Do you think pink. Why why did she? Why does she do that? Why do you think she would have killed your father? I don't know I don't know I think that power is Incredibly corrosive corrosive for us. I think it produces fear That's explainable in some cases. My father was a threat to her. My father was a critic and people had a hope and a promise for him. It hadn't been tested yet. Didn't have the chance to be tested. But unfortunately fortunately my aunt's herself was killed years later on so there's no chance to ask her one of one of the men who was on the road that night she later inducted one of the one of the police people a high ranking police. Intelligence officer was on the road that night. My father was killed and after my father's death my aunt. Welcome that man into the Central Committee of her political party. I mean there's a strange things to do. They defy logic. I so I couldn't possibly gone to why she did them. I wondering how your life changed in that one terrible moment you were so young I noticed you published a book of Poetry Victory Fifteen just a year after the murder. Yes I had been already was very very young and I had studied writing poetry for a school project right and I was show them to my father the poems and he said to me you have to publish these and he was incredibly supportive but I thought no not no not. That's crazy I'm a kid like a kid. Why would I published in? and He'd gone and found publishes addresses and clip them out and written sample letters for me and and so we're actually before he was killed. We were in the process of like talking to the small presses and things like that and because I was underage I had to have a guardian the signature on one of these contracts and I remember as things would change in those days and growing menacing. I I said to my father will if you jail. WHO's is going to sign my contract? and He's put it in my put it in my bag. You know sign in jail. And of course that was packed in his room and so after he was killed. It became even more important for me to publish this poems in his memory and so so I did. Oxford University press by his own publish. Push them at the end of the year after the murder. I guess I kept writing always thinking that I would one. They become like a proper grownup writer but still felt far away that time. Well it's interesting because you're writing is is clear and you see to be both an artist under journalist a-list same time you sort of cut through the truth. Why Guess I? I've done a little bit of everything. In that sense. I started my writing career really as a journalists I wrote for a Pakistan e paper and they send you out. Yeah John John was do paper and the news with the English so they sent me out to do different stories and they sent me to Iran. They sent me to Cuba and they gave me space to write about what I wanted. So I I learnt really how to begin working as a proper writer and she felt safe staying in Pakistan. After your father died. Well I I did and I didn't. I mean I never really feel a hundred percent safe in by San because because of the fact that you really don't have any recourse in a country like where do you go when something bad happens. You know the courts to protect you. The police don't protect too. So you do feel vulnerable. I think that's most people would say that. Not just me but at the same time where is safe. You know. I'm I I don't know what's safe or West. They've there's no place that's going to be one hundred percent safe anywhere. You went on to study at Columbia University which is in New York right Middle Eastern languages yet Middle Eastern legs clearly being in the Nathan Clark and then the School of Oriental and African studies in London. Yeah Salvation government studied now. One might have thoughts with those choices you were thinking about using your voice. Yeah in active politics while I did for a long period very seriously consider that and I've always been fascinated by politics and interested and disturbed by politics and I did studying and at the same time as well. That's true wouldn't really say I'm not in politics. I mean I am not in active politics but I feel what I do is quite political but at the same time much freer than it would be if I was an actual politics I I I write about things that I care about that that are meaningful to me. What's your family expectation at all that you would go into politics being who you were from the family? The U Well I think I think maybe people thought I might. Nobody ever forced me or or made. It seem like I had to. I always wanted to I was I said I wanted to be a writer. I was allowed the freedom to choose. I mean nobody really groomed me in that sense but at the same time you know you you you have a bit of grooming anyways. Don't you because you you learn how to navigate certain things that you wouldn't otherwise so. I traveled across Pakistan with my family with all of them with my aunt with my grandmother with my father on their political tours and trips. But it's those things that made me a writer not a politician Uh what a jump straight into your fiction and how you use it to express what could be seen as kind of political concerns. Activist concerns the runaways. Your most recent novel is a story about extremists. And what draws people into jihadi brides young men going off off apparently happy to join dash these torturing murderous cult. Many people might think I don't want to understand them. We've seen the backlash against people like should be in a bedroom and The others from Britain in particular who've gone off to join dash people think they're monsters. Why did you want to understand them now? I have to say it's incredibly humane and thought provoking book. Thank you. We've now had years and years in years of evidence that not understanding why these things happen leads to even more dangerous consequences. If you want to change the world we live in if we want to be safer and more secure than I think. We have a duty to understand why people would be vulnerable to radicalism why people would be drawn into violence. And we'll see what happens when people dismiss it and say these barbarians and we don't want to talk about them. It makes it worse and particularly if you come from the Non Western world then you know that. The reasoning is flawed. To begin with the reasoning has been since nine eleven that these are people from a certain place these people of a certain certain religion and this is how they are infected with these impulses and of course that's not true. I don't think radicalism is born out of religion at all. I think it's born out of humiliation and isolation and the fact that many many young people today don't see a future for themselves in their countries and and if you don't see a future in your country you'll be vulnerable to anyone who offers you a future and I think that's what that's what happened with a lot of these young people who have picked up left lives of essential comfort. Let's say and gone off to join dash in Iraq or Syria. It's been interesting seeing the rise. As a far-right extremes of terrorist acts in North America and around Europe because it's massively increased threat right and when you look into the background and again it's mostly young men it's very intraday you go and they suffer the same impulse. which is that? The they're clinging to a past you know and that past is decades ago that passes maybe even something they've never even lived through but they cling to it because they see in their present that they are not respected that their voice is not given a space that people like them are somehow excluded from society on. They feel wounded wounded and humiliated by that. I mean I is born out of that. But so are these Nazis these neo Nazis. You know I hate the word white nationalist because that what does that even mean. It doesn't mean anything if you'll brown they call you a terrorist. You know if you're White Call Your White Knight doesn't it's not even a word that but but they are born exactly the same impulse you move so easily between cultures and continents kings of the world's this fascinating Booker Booker dispatchers. You're looking at changing workings of soft power. Can you tell me briefly this thesis you have about how American power I spread its influence throughout Asia. yeah in the Middle East through military bases Yeah I think I think our understanding is that in a Americana is spread by virtue of cool. that it's just elvis was just intron and that's why everyone in the world wants where Blue Jeans and sing rock and roll. But it's really accompanied by militarism and a lot of senses today for the first time in history you have the lowest number of US bases and troops globally dispatched but that number was incredibly high in the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties. You had American army bases. He essentially all over the world And those bases were not only conduits for American in culture they brought with them American movies American music American dress American fashion but in the case of Korea I think is really interesting. Example when and the Americans set up their bases and South Korea around the time of the Korean War in the nineteen fifties if you will these troops there had to be entertained. Somehow they had they had had to have something to do when they weren't doing the work of of of soldiering. And if you were a young Korean and you wanted to play rock and roll and you wanted to dance you. You couldn't do that in clubs in Seoul because they played foxtrot music you know they play the stodgy sort of limp sounding music but you could on the basis you could go to the basis and play electric guitar and and capable was really born out of that out of that beginning. It sounds like a strange beginning. But but it's true you and I think that's that's really how this culture spreads American culture is just innocently accepted by all of us. We watched the movies. We don't even think twice about about who's behind the wheel of what the messaging is. One example I was like is Mission impossible the Tom Cruise Tom Cruise films exactly it was first. TV show in the sixties. Whenever was a now? It's this mega billion dollar series of films and Tom Cruise's character works for an organization called the IMF Mif. You know the impulsive impossible missions force. But you know that's crazy that's that's it's not even subliminal it's so transparent but we don't we don't even think think about it. This is fantastic bizarre in county. How we're CON Bollywood superstar? Who's filling me for some Middle Eastern show in Dubai and it's just the whole sense of Bollywood's impact now being so much bigger and exporting around the world but it's not all positive and you were very frank about your concerns about how Bollywood it has changed and become co opted by Hindu nationalists? Do you think people take that threat. Seriously enough Well you know if I I started writing new kings of the world in two thousand sixteen and that's why I made the choice to include Bollywood. If I was writing the book today in Two Thousand Nineteen I would not have included Bollywood because because I think fit I think the Bollywood has been always very faithful mirror to Indian society. It's reflected the aspirations the struggles on and the fishers of Indian Indian society from the nineteen forties. The nine hundred forty nine hundred fifty S. Bollywood films were really idealistic. Films and my brotherhood and nation building and and moral tales in the nineteen. Seventies films are about injustice and about the poor being dispossessed. Aren't as Roy said what you said as well which is a bunch in that super would play Lease Mun or a porter's yes. They working class shoeshine boys farmers and then you have nine thousand nine hundred liberalism them and then there are no more farmers films and there are no more shoeshine boys and they are all multinational bankers. Who Live in London in summer and Switzerland and have fast cars and and that's finding it reflects the time you know when undergoing neoliberal reforms but today Bollywood films are about war? You know. They're about this muscular. Jingoism Ango ISM that is violent and If -clusive come to look a lot like Hollywood films of the eighties with a big buffed bodies uh-huh yes exactly the aesthetic has got find also the militaristic messaging it's completely minister militaristic and and I think that's alienating and I think it's dangerous I'm I'm one of those people that really does believe that politics is in everything you know when I sit down to watch a movie today. I'm not comfortable. I'm uncomfortable watching it and I think unfortunately culture only moves when it's free of constraints. It moves beautifully. When it's free of constraints it can have politics? It always will have politics but when it constrains itself to a message pushing a message then that culture is going to be wounded. And it's and I think that's what's going to happen with Bollywood moving forward. Just remind US how how you've noticed. Mody the prime minister specifically having an impact on on trying to use Bollywood Stars for his. You see see it You see you see most recently in February of this year Pakistan in just stood again at the brink of war design nuclear armed nations on our our air forces engaged in dogfights for the first time since nineteen seventy one and at that time I was in Islamabad. And Pakistani public figures. Coming out not to say we do not want war. We did not want Indians today. We do not want tonight. We do not have any appetite for this at the same time. Bollywood actors were coming out and cheering hewing war and with cheering strikes Pakistan. and to me that was I mean an unimaginable lead disgusting. Can you imagine I dunno Tom Cruise. WHO's cheering a drone strike minute? It sounds completely. Misplaced does not the role of an artist. So it's it's been impacted like that. I think a lot of recent in Bollywood films have been specific. I mean there have been many films about Moody himself. have been films About these programs you know. His sort of initiatives is sort of soft initiatives. If you want to call them that now have Bollywood films about them. I think what's more interesting coming out of India or TV shows at the moment you know streaming so the the shows that are coming on Netflix Amazon prime. They were a little more interesting than what's coming out of Bollywood. Do you feel a responsibility to represent the voices of of Pakistanis and Islam. That are not heard beneath the headlines. You speak out against the likes of Richard Dawkins as being as damaging into productive discourses Fox News. Yeah yeah well. I don't see myself as a voice for anyone really. I mean I speak out about those things because I I'm personally affronted by them You know I I believe in the idea of discourse I believe in the idea of conversation and dialogue on I. Why don't you get either those from Richard Dawkins or Fox News? It's the same pushing of an agenda on what I'm personally fronted. By as Richard Dawkins can be incredibly Fred ably patriarchal and insulting. When he stands up and says Muslim women need help? You know The so demeaning to Muslim women as though we don't have capacity and capability to help ourselves. We need you know this sort of white savior like Richard Dawkins. So I'm personally offended by. That's why I said it and Fox News is just an insult to everyone is that I've been looking at your twitter feed and this is you on the new Dakota fanning film about a white Ethiopian. Aping refugee once again. Hollywood steps up to tell the urgent unheard time. You stories of white people novelist shriver. There's no volume control on inexhaustible exhaustible white privilege but there should be a you Frank Mississippi refreshing but you have a worry about the effects of a potentially offending important people. No I I mean I I. I tried to go by the hippocratic oath. So I I don't want to cause harm to anybody and I don't want to be insulting anybody or demeaning to anybody but yeah I think if somebody is Exclusionary on if somebody is bigoted or somebody is offensive. But I think you have a right to say Let's stop where you are. I don't accept that I'm you know there's a problem with your conversation. I think we have to say that. I think it's important. I think the idea idea of Hollywood telling that story woke. None of us have seen the film but it sounds ridiculous. Doesn't it you know foxy not your why does is there have to be a white woman in the story for us to have sympathy with refugees. Tail on also you know easy opium has its own stories and narratives. Aren't they allowed those. I think that's that's partially why Western culture is under threat from so many places because it assumes itself is the center and the neutral center. Yes yes of course the enlightened objective center as though such a thing could exist and you know the Hollywood has come so late to the idea of representation. They think that representation means that you put an Asian American President of film. You know one character or you put a Mexican character in a TV show and boom. That's the end of the problem. Everyone fuel seen unheard but what they don't realize. Why would we watch your show with one measly character when there is a whole industry in industries everywhere else in the a world where the stories are Mexican? The producers are Mexican the actors Mexican or Asian American or African. There's a world that we live in a multi-polar world and there's culture blossoming in so many points are not restricted to only one. This is your view that there is a big global culture and it's just certain western institutions still refusing to see the world that way completely. I mean you know everybody in the world who is Not White was essentially as opposed to stand up and give a standing ovation nation to crazy rich Asians. As somehow this is now encompassed what it means to be Asian. Why would we do that when I can go and watch any a number of Korean films which are nuanced sophisticated and an incredibly elegantly told in in their diversity in their multiplicity and why do I have to cheer for one American film when there are libraries film out there I just to me? It seems absurd. Especially when you see the row over the Asian Shen writer. Oh yes. He's refused to work on the second one because they were offering her eighth of the money. Exactly of the white male writer. Although you've made it clear you have no plans. Let's go into politics. I just wonder if knowing that you know you carry the name brutal you you have a life in Pakistan was outside. Do you worry that there are people who see you as a threat just because you do speak out and you speak out on issues like corruption is speak out on issues I I don't know really You know I think that I worked consistently as a writer release since I left college so I don't know if people how will take that as proof that I'd like to stay writer or if they just see that as a placeholder until I I I. I really couldn't couldn't answer that I don't know what do you think it's possible. Something might tempt you into politics. I don't really think so because I think that with their many answers I mean I think I'd at points of I have considered it and have want to and I made the choice not to in Pakistan or elsewhere in Pakistan but but at the same time I'm you know I'm free to say what I think at the moment and I'm free to have opinions. That might otherwise be impossible. If I were in politics. I mean those are enormous Thomas Freedoms I'm not sure I would rush to give up ever and also I. I do think I have a lot of hope for Bagazan I I don't I don't see that that it's waiting for me in particular. I don't think that you know I. I have any special onset hopeful because people look at today and they wonder if the endemic corruption. Yeah Yeah has really changed. Well I think there's a difference between being hopeful for for the people of a place than for the government of a place I think if you look at the people of Pakistan they're incredibly really young. Were a huge population. Something like seventy percent of our two hundred million people almost are under the age of thirty They're they're a population that has this under. Thirty population has survived life. Under military dictatorship. Terrorism invasions occupations hugh patients this veivers on and they're hard working in the de Dynamic and in that sense it you you can be anything but hopeful hopeful and excited to see what will happen. Governments are obviously not great sources of of hope for anyone I would say but I think by his suns Pakistan. Today's in an interesting position in the world. It's always been But I think our population is tired of war on. I'm tired of corruption and tired of the same old same old and I don't think they're going to allow it for for forever. What are you going to do with your voice next? That's a good question. I'm a little burnt out after two books One fiction and one non. Fix Unfair. When you've just I don't know yet? I mean it the way it happened. The runaways came out with not that much space between you kings of the world. So I'm not sure what I will do next whether it be fiction on fiction but I'm going to take a little marination period. I guess to to wait and see what strikes Fatima. Bhutto's thank you so much for talking about how you find your voice. I'm sincere amid and the producer was adjusted We'd love to hear from you and let us know what you think by rating and reviewing how I found my voice on Apple podcasts Hello again it's far producer of how I found my voice. We really hope you enjoyed this week's show. Don't forget to subscribe and cheating into our episode next week. In the meantime we wanted to give a big shoutout to our sponsor the out an innovative premium car rental service powered by Jaguar Landrover. If you're a Londoner and want want to get out of the city for a weekend download the APP for premium hassle-free experience choose from a range of cars including the Range Rover Sport and all electric Jagua Go. I pace the call will be delivered and picked up from your doorstep. You get unlimited mileage additional drivers philly comprehensive insurance and even the congestion and charging pleaded. Download the APP today.
Leaders: Benazir Bhutto
"The father used to say that the people of Bacchus thon on my political s there my sons and daughters. Hello from Wonder Media Network. I'm Jenny Kaplan and this is encyclopedia will Manteca. Today's leader was a groundbreaking politician who served as prime the minister of Pakistan twice making her the first woman in modern history to lead the Muslim nation though somewhat controversial due to charges of both corruption and political recall naievety. She was a champion for democracy and a force for liberalization in greater personal freedoms in her country. Let's talk about Benazir. Bhutto Benazir was born on June twenty first nineteen fifty three in Karachi Pakistan to a wealthy aristocratic family with strong a political ties. Benazir's father Zulfikar Ali Bhutto founded the Pakistan Peoples Party otherwise known as the P P P A popular Socialist Party that lead Pakistan in the nineteen seventies sometimes has to appear to be optimistic nevertheless feed that that is you for the future but this is dwindling at the same time I defected. That's lifetime and as your first and primary language bridge was English though. She did speak Urdu on occasion. From a young age she showed great promise and received a Western style. Education prestigious convent schools in Pakistan Khuzistan. In one thousand nine hundred. Seventy one while Benazir was attending Harvard. University her father was elected leader of Pakistan on a socialist platform. Then is your graduated with a bachelor's degree from Harvard in nineteen seventy three and then moved across the Atlantic to the University of Oxford where she studied philosophy political Kossi. It's making in nineteen seventy seven soon. After she finished Oxford and return to Pakistan Benazir's father was ousted in a military Kuu. I'm a Hamad will hawk. Zia became the military dictator of Pakistan and Benazir's father was executed two years later in nineteen seventy jeanine though Benazir and her mother were frequently under house. Arrest from nineteen seventy nine to nineteen eighty-four Benazir took up her father's mantle as head of the PP PP finally having had enough Benazir's political aspirations Zia exiled Benazir on her mother. The to move to London in Nineteen eighty-six Zia ended martial law and Benazir and her mother were allowed to return to Pakistan. Benazir quickly became the foremost member of the political opposition to Zia during her time. In England Benazir admired the work of Margaret Thatcher upon her return she shifted the P P P from a socialist socialist platform to a liberal one. It changed the course of my life. I had no intention of going into politics and had my father lived. Perhaps perhaps I would have chosen a different life for myself. A more stable life. The political shift helped Benazir navigate a political power vacuum created by the mysterious his death of Zia in a plane crash in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight in the ensuing elections. The P P P one the largest block of seats in the National Assembly and Benazir here was sworn in as prime minister on December first nineteen eighty-eight. This made her the first woman leader of a Muslim nation in modern history. As Prime Minister her Benazir tried to enact political and social reforms but was almost completely stifled by the Islamist and conservative parties as such. She wasn't able to effectively combat. The many issues facing Pakistan including pervasive corruption widespread poverty an increase in violent crime in August of nineteen ninety the president of Pakistan Gulan conned accused Benazir and her new government of corruption and nepotism Benazir was dismissed from her position and a new election was called. It's generally accepted that. The following election was rigged by Pakistan's intelligence services to ensure victory for the Islamic Islamic Democratic Alliance or J. I A Conservative Party in the years that followed Benazir served as leader of the opposition in the National Assembly in one thousand nine hundred ninety three the I J I government was also dismissed for corruption in elections held in October of Nineteen ninety-three the P P P again unearned a majority of votes and Benazir was Prime Minister of Pakistan. Once again this time around Venezia's determined to focus on economic privatization and greater the rights for women to areas. She believed were holding Pakistan back three years later. Renewed charges of corruption were brought against Benazir on. Is You're on her government these new accusations along with a series of controversies like the assassination of Benazir brother and a bribery scandal involving her husband. Bend led to her government's dismissal by the president. The P P P took a beating in the nineteen ninety-seven National Assembly elections and Benazir chose to go into self exile. The following year. The new prime minister was continuing to pursue. What were believed to be politically motivated? Corruption charges against her Benazir moved to Dubai and continued to run the P.. From there in two thousand seven rumors began to circulate. That Benazir was returning to Pakistan to run in the two thousand eight elections and she planned to run on a platform of greater military accountability to the civilian government and calls for a stop to the growing Islamist violence. In October tober Benazir officially arrived in Karachi from Dubai. They were great celebrations by her supporters following her return from exile though they were marred by a suicide aside attack on her motorcade that killed many supporters standing nearby. Either plus Sweden me not to come away. Intimidate me into not coming and I'm not going into be intimidated. I've made my decision and I'm returning for better or for us after attending a rally on December twenty seventh. Two thousand seven Benazir's Benazir's motorcade was hit by another suicide attack. This time Benazir herself was killed though. al-Qaeda took responsibility for the attack. It's it's widely suspected that the Pakistani Taliban as well as elements at the intelligence services were also involved in the years following her assassination. Benazir's here's come to be regarded as an icon for women's rights. She's revered for achieving the highest levels of success in a male dominated society tune in tomorrow for the story of another leader this week encyclopedia will Manica is brought to you by hellofresh. One of my personal New Year's resolutions is to cook more. Our thanks to hellofresh. I think it's a resolution I can actually keep. Hellofresh is flexible. You can easily change delivery days and food preferences and you can skip a week. Whenever you need I travel a lot? So that's Buydell for me. hellofresh helps me save meal prep and planning time and most importantly the recipes are delicious. Russia's I love that I get introduced dishes I otherwise might not try hellofresh now starts at just five dollars and sixty six cents per serving go to hellofresh fresh dot COM Slash Encyclopedia Tan. That's hellofresh dot com slash encyclopedia one zero and Use Code Encyclopedia. One zero during hellofresh is New Year's sale for ten free meals including free shipping special. Thanks to Liz. Caplan my favorite sister and Co Creator. Her Talk to you tomorrow.
"I think in a culture where you have to be somebody. But you have to be that somebody all the time, and you have to followers, and they have to approve of you, and like you and you have to constantly be performing a version of popularity or significance. What does that do to people on the fringes of their society who are not wanted and desire who are not like, not popular? I think it drives you to a place of anger, really powerlessness and that creates a really bizarre impulse in return. Thought amaafuza is part of the Pakistani political dynasty. She was born in Kabul. Afghanistan and grew up in exile in Syria before returning to Pakistan, her family's histories, one of subsequent tragedies. Her grandfather. The former prime minister of Pakistan was hund- by his successor her uncle died from suspected poisoning her father. A prominent political activists was killed in a spray of police bullets in her memoir songs of blood and sword. First Mabuto, hold her aunt Benazir Bhutto Pakistan's, prime minister that the time of the killing and a husband the diary responsible. The diary was jailed for the murder, but became president after his wife was assassinated while campaigning in an election. He still a member of the national assembly today, but Bhutto's most recent book the runaways is a bold story about radicalism belonging and Muslim identity. I'm Georgina Godwin and to. Tell us more about the book and to intricate family history. Fatima join me in London on the big interview. Festival. The story begins really with your grandfather, tell us about him. Well, my grandfather is currently Bhutto was by first democratically elected head of states, and he was in power. And by Senator time when the country was really fresh from partition and independence, and he brought with him the hope and the promise of something new. It was a moment. I think Rebecca sonny's felt that the world was open to them with a future was opened them on when he was removed in a coup. D'etat by a CIA backed dictator general zeal hawk that ended that moment for bison. And what followed was the bag sanity, you know, today. One in which the army has incredible control over the country one in which a nation has been quite brutalize and all that goes back to general hawks nineteen seventy seven martial law. So. So a lot of the laws we have in place in the country against women against minorities. You know, the blasphemy laws all those date back to zero. So my grandfather, really, I think represented something to to the country that we haven't really seen since then not at least I haven't seen it in my lifetime. And I'm thirty six years old of grown up in the shadow of the hawks dictatorship on your grandfather was hunt. He was the family was never allowed to see the body. So we were told he was hanged, but they never actually knew the dictatorship buried him before his family could see him. But he was arrested. He was kept tawdry confinement. And that he was killed. But the family political dynasty continued. It did continue. But I don't think anyone really has managed to represent those ideals that the family in politics I began with and by sons history since then has been such a choppy one, you know, even in periods where we've had democratic. Pakistan. I can't really say it's been very democratic holding elections is the most basic step of democracy. But it certainly not the only one now you'll father vowed to resist that the knee. Yes, he did. And my father's life really was defined by what happened to his father. My father was twenty five years old when his father was executed, and he had spent in two years traveling around the world lobbying for his father's life, which I wrote about in songs of blood and sword and he resisted the dictatorship. And he spent sixteen years an exile from Pakistan. So when he returned back to back San he'd been away for sixteen years, he returned back in nineteen ninety four because he'd want an election. So he was a member of parliament. And he was killed not even two years into his return to his country. Let's took about his time away. Because that's when you born in fight you born in. Afganistan? Yes, I was born in Kabul under curfew must be childhood. Well, I was quite young when we left Kabul. I was I think only three or four months old when my family left, but then they went to Syria until I grew up in Damascus and the Damascus of my childhood really wasn't anything like one sees today in the news. I mean, certainly if you were a political opponent of the government's it would have been incredibly difficult place to be but on the other hand, if you were a woman, if you were a minority if you gave Syria was really quite an idyllic, calm, quiet place, and the Assad family wasn't very kind to you. Well, they gave us asylum. Really? They kept us an allowed us to live in Syria. And so we did I was twelve years old when we left, but you know, I thought of myself as Syrian for so long because it was only home I really knew. So until the war would go back all the time. I'm and I would really like to go back now. I mean, I don't know if it's safe. Maybe damascus. But I don't know. So it is I suppose one of the first homes I lost with Syria. The must've been quite an interesting time between going back to Buxton and before the reporting tragedy of of your father's death. Will you know, I grew up in the way, I guess many exiles grew up with this constant promise of home and the return to home. So growing up. I was seven years old. The first time, I visited Pakistan, a never seen it until then, and it was a place that I knew really through my father and through his memories and his belonging really to be home. So how'd this all tremendous notion of what by San was and what it meant? And would it could be and he would say all the time. This year will go home this year will go home. It'll be next year we go home. And of course, we never did on then one year. Remember, he said it and it started to become true. So for my father was a very exciting on, of course. I came with a lot of anxiety and threat of violence and was a turbulent time. But for him the idea of his homecoming was so exciting because he loved his country so much, and he he sort of lived in limbo when he was away from it. You know, he never really learned Arabic. Even though he spent sixteen years or less than Syria. But because he kind of lived in this sort of transit period for me. It was a little sad to leave Syria because I was the only place. I've no my friends with Emma school was there everything I knew about the world was in Syria. But I was also very excited to finally go home with my father. And once we reached by son. Of course, the reality of going home was much starker and less, romantic and more terrifying. Than unless anonymous people absolutely knew who you were less anonymous. Yes. Because growing up in Syria. Nobody knew I was nobody. Nobody cared. Nobody knew I went to an international school. There was only one other by sending in the entire school who arrived just round nineteen nineteen. His name was unfortunately for him Saddam Hussein. So there was a sense that I was I was sort of one of anyone at school. I never really felt anyone looking at meal watching me or anything like that. And then in bags, of course, it was a different experience. But I think I was lucky enough to have not grown up in that because it made me forever suspicious of attention. He talked father about him writing his own life story. Yes. Actually just before. My father was killed. It was his birthday two days before he was killed, and we'd had dinner, and we were sitting up late at night and talking, and I was asking him all these things, and I said to him, you know, your life is so interesting. What are you write a book? And he said to sort of the coffee said, well, you know, you do it for me when I'm gone, and I was thrilled always very close to my father. But I was really excited at the idea that he would allow me trust me with such a responsibility. And you know, I wanted to start taking notes immediately in an hey, sort of lofted means no when I'm gone not now. Of course, two days later, he was gone. And so it was always in the back of my head the idea that I had this promise to my father. And I started the research for songs of Lennon's or long before I wrote it I started writing it in two thousand and eight because I had a sense that the people who I held responsible for my father's killing. We're gonna come back to government. And I thought if they come back to government they're going to raise things. So I no longer had any excuse to wait at the time of his death. Your aunt his sister Benazir who was in charge of Pakistan. You describe that night. Tell us what happened. Well, my father was a member of parliament. And he was a very vocal critic of his sister's government, and especially his sister's husband who went on Ossets who went on to become president of bags on after my aunt's death. And he was coming home. My father that night from a public meeting on the outskirts of Karachi, and when he reached the road of our house, which is a road. I mean and credit, you know, a well populated part of the city. We live near a lot of embassies, including the British high commission and the street had been shots all the streetlights had been closed. There is no lights on the streets and about one hundred policemen had been placed in sniper positions in trees, all the guards of nearby residences had been told to go inside their homes. So it was a coordinated assassination. It was not something that was done spontaneously. It had been planned very carefully and very senior police off. Officers were on the road that night, and my father and six men were killed. They were shot several times including point blank, and then they were left to bleed on the streets for about an hour before they were moved all of them will move non toss. But -als there's only really one hospital in Karachi that can handle gunshot wounds. None of them were taken there. There would just take into different clinics and dispensaries and places like that. And I was inside the house while all this was happening. So we could hear the gunfire in the shooting. But with your brother with my anger brother, my younger brother, and I my brother was six years old. I was fourteen when the shooting started because we you know, we were Karachi kids we knew what to do in the event of gunfire. We knew to get away from windows when you to go to sort of corridors I did that I took my brother into a corridor unplugged the doors and kept him there until the shooting stopped. But we didn't know at that time that it was our father who was outside. Not just being killed with being left to bleed today. And you could your and I did I called the prime minister's house because after the shooting stopped we want allowed to leave our house. So when we try we were told that there had been a robbery the police said, and we had to stay inside. But it started to be very clear that something was wrong. When my father wasn't coming home. You know, this was in the days before cell phones. So we couldn't text him or call him. We said it's get anxious. And so I called my aunt was not put through to my aunt. It was her husband who wanted the call and said to me, don't, you know, your father's been charged. That's how we found out. And he, of course is in government. He's yes. Well, he was not now he became prime minister, but will the policemen who are involved in. My father's killing. They all hold very senior positions in the police. They hold federal positions in some case. They've been promoted many times in the. Will now it's twenty three years since my father's murder. So in terms of Justice, one cont really say that any form of DASA's has been carried out in the intervening years where did you go from the while I was still in school? I was in ninth grade. And so I we remained in Karachi and went to school and tried to live normally as normally as one cone. But it was always it was always there. I mean, anytime I left my house or came back to my house. I cross the road when my father lost his life. So the memory never really goes away. And not only that you know, the people involved in his killing were very present two. So they never went away. They're always there. And then I you know, I went to university. But first you be actual I yes, I did. That's right. Just fifteen years old. I was fifteen I had started writing poetry as a school project. My father was very encouraging about a who's really the reason I became a writer, and I had shown him some of these poems. And you know, he had sought with me, and and sent them out to publishers and helped me write the letter, and and then after his death. I publish them with Oxford University press in Pakistan in his memory one year one year after his murder. So yes, that's right. I published that book, and then I had I guess you would call it a normal life. I went to university you were Columbia on its soa sign it. So as yes it my master's here in London at so as and then he went back home to by San and I had another small little book come out after the earthquake in two thousand and five. I went to visit the areas, and I'd collected survivor accounts. Mainly written by children on that was published and all the proceeds were given back to a foundation called the foundation, which is one of the largest in by his San back to child survivors. And then I started writing a newspaper column for Pakistani paper on then that's I suppose the beginning of will the rest of this and a life is jogging, journalists reassess. Yes. So how does I was I was twenty four one. I started writing that column and from there, I wrote songs of blood and sword, and and that kind of pushed me further into books on away from from journalism. So songs of gluttony sold is is the is the memoir that we've been talking about. But then came the shadow of the crescent moon, and this is a book set in really very different circumstances from urine life. It's five men. They're in a completely different area. And all of them have terrible. To make Thomas a little about that book while the shot of the cresent moon takes pace over a single morning on. It's the story of this family and the three sons of the family who are all going for Friday prayers, but cannot pray at the same mosque because it's too dangerous. So in case the mosque is attacked. They will go to different mosques on. It's the story of the of the brothers and the families around them, and it sets in the tribal regions, very close by sense border with Arnesen MRs story really of a country on fire, and how it is that young people Neri people, including two women survive the turbulence of their country while trying to live while trying to resist it multi and have normal lives, unruly. That's pretty much the situation the countries in. No, it was the story of bags and for a very long time. And I'm hesitant to sound too hopeful I think in many ways, yes, it still the story of by Kazan. But I think something quite extraordinary. Has happened over the last few years. I think by his son's appetites by his ends people have had to endure so much violence so much uncertainty so much instability that they really push back against it unto. It's been quite nice to see over the past few years. A lot of people resisting them whether it's through arts and culture or protests, but we're for young population. You know, I always mention it because it to me it's boggling but seventy percent of the country's onto thirty. And so you see that nine over International Women's Day. There were a lot of protests young women taking back the roads over the country. And I am hopeful. I mean, I guess I'm always I'm never hopeful about the state or the way in which government is conducting itself, but I'm always an increasingly so hopeful about the way in which by people are choosing to live their lives, and how that using to sort of push back. All that in two thousand fifteen year next book came up, and that was democracy. Oh that was a short story. Yes. Gone. I forgot about that. That was a short story I did really for penguin. India? It was part of their kind of turn towards e books. So I did a short story called democracy, which is basically about pervades Musharraf coup but told and fictional form with corporate of wits too. I hope so I mean, I think that's partly how you survive countries like ours. You have to have a sense of humor about things. So yes, it's the story of a general on a plane that's been stopped from landing and then little other stories around the story of a news reader who's go to go on on air until the story of a coup. So yeah that came out into that in fifteen and quite closely based on on the coupe memories are so short. I'm not sure people notice it or you'd have to be a certain age to remember the visuals of that coup, which I was an interestingly, my high school swim team was on that plane with General Musharraf which had been denied permission to land and was circling over Karachi airspace with seven minutes of fuel left before his coup was successful. So I guess we will feel personally tied up the runaways, which is your latest book, which is I think Mike -nificant piece of work, and it's clear that many many people. Agree with me. It's been beautifully reviewed. It has some contested bluffs from some very important people. And again, it's a completely different book. It's really unlike anything you've written before, and it really examines suppose, the Muslim identity young Muslim identity just gives the the premise of the book while the runaways is about not just radicalism. But I think what the world doesn't want say about the radicalized. So it's about the lives of his people very much like anyone like you mean growing up between Portsmouth and Karachi whose lives drift towards this path and the drift for very different reasons. So that several characters, but they're all young most are Muslim and their lives. I think of alien Asian isolation and a lot of millennial confusion. And so it's a novel about pain Vivian how that leads to. Things like radicalism today. I think dislocated in exile is really really important in this unin deed in in the life of anybody who feels that way. This one wonderful line. You you you right now, this is about one of the character's sunny, and his father has left luck now and gone off to live in Portsmouth of places, you write the plane is not strong enough to transport the burden of his expectation across the black waters of exile. That's just such a stunning line. And it just sums up so much of what that feels like. I mean, you go on then to talk about the smell the scent of loneliness, and I think anybody who's ever left their home country. Can completely understand what you mean by that will, you know for south, Asians, especially the idea of exile is so painful, you know, we do call it black waters because you know, at least in the Hindu tradition, which seeps into a lot of Muslim culture to coming from. India does. The idea that you knew you are polluted by leaving your country that your spirit is defiled by exiling displacement. And so people who do it do it on the expectation that something really great awaits them on the other side, you know, something beautiful has to be on the other side. Otherwise, you've just destroyed yourself really to make that journey. And so that that section that you just read from is from sonny's father who who travels really kind of glamour d- by what he sees, you know, in JAMES BOND films on expects that England is going to welcome him. And it doesn't and what he finds. Instead is the loneliness of not being accepted, not being included. I know so the shock of of poverty which exists in England in a completely different way as it exists in India and the absence of community, which no matter how long he's he stays in England four he never quite builds up in the same way on his son's experience the father. Still believes that there might be a place for him in England in Portsmouth. But the sun's experience, you know, as a second or first generation immigrant is that there isn't any place, and he resents his father for dragging him out of his own country where he might have been someone where he could have been amongst his own to this place. Never really rejects him and never really accept him either and his experience, and I've done that it's kind of plot. Spoiler to say that he is radicalized is really out of that that frustration of being in a place where he feels that. He can't flee exist isn't fully seen. He wants to be seen. And I think you really pick up on the wanna use the word zeitgeist here dislike intensely, but the whole millennials guys of needing to be seen needing to be on Instagram to be on Snapchat to be out that to be someone an eventual to be someone who does something terrible. Yeah. There's this incredible culture. I think that millennials. Whether they're eastern or western or radical not radical ascribe to which is this culture of the self, you know, and what is fascinating about today's radicals is that they don't really require secrecy or discretion because they want the same thing millennial in New York or London ones, which is to go viral. And I think in a culture where you have to be somebody. But you have to be that somebody all the time, and you have to followers, and they have to approve of you. And if the like you and you have to constantly be performing a version of popularity or significance. What does that do to people on the fringes of their society? Who are not wanted and desired who are not like, we're not popular. And who don't have something, you know, fascinating to add to conversation. Twenty four times a day every day. I think it drives you to a place of anger, really and powerlessness and that and that can that can create a really bizarre impulse. In return and so- Sanni does feed into that Unicenter. I think tries to find belonging in many different ways. He tries to find in his school. He conned tries to find in his community Kant. He goes to the mosque and doesn't even find it there because they don't understand what exactly he feels so alienated by on. He sort of groomed by cousin his groomed by cousin who comes into his life at this voluble moment and says why fighting here they don't need us here. But there is a place where you can be powerful when you can be seen and that place needs you now urgently on across this for him unin deed for the other the other characters in the book who are drawn over to the caliphate religion, really has nothing to do it. It really doesn't. You know? I think this is maybe what is not clear in the west. But for those of us who live outside has always been pretty clear that the people joining these these. Fundamentalist movements are drawn to it. Not because it feeds into a religion that they ascribe to. But because he's a cults of power and violence and like a ferocious sense of significance. But religion, actually is even according to my five is a is an insulator against radicalism. It's not a feeder to radicalism. And we see it in the news all the time in or the people who go off enjoying these organizations. Don't know the first thing about religion, you know, they're buying the Koran for dummies off Amazon before travelling on the have this kind of diluted Chinese whisper version of something they considered to be a religion, but it's never actually grounded in any religious identity belonging. So how does one address this anti Islam feeling around the world where people uneducated people unthinking people equate the religion with tears way, thinking we're seeing so much of this now after the shooting. A New Zealand. You know, many people are coming forward to say that the media's responsible for a lot of that anti-islam feeling. I think it's it's it's fed by this sort of cabal of right wing politicians. You know newspapers that just want to sell copies, and how do you sell copies of paper? How do you do click bait you terrify people? And so you have to terrify them constantly all the time and the faucets. We do that is to other an entire group of people to reduce them to some some tiny. Terrifying story, and partly why I wanted to write the runaways is to do the opposite of that to say yes, there is filing. There is this problem doesn't come from religion. And in fact, everyone is implicated in that problem, you know, the twenty year long wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are a huge feeder to radical groups. You know, the politics that we see around us, Donald Trump speeches, those a huge feeders. But it's not a slum. That does it. It's not the intrinsic experience of being Muslim. And it's a -fensive. I think it's really wounding too many of us who live in a world that isn't run by, you know, I don't know the sun or Fox News, or you know, we have a much wider experience. And it's sad. Not to see that wide experience reflected in the world around us. So I hope this novel. Does that partly an certainly there many other great writers from bison, India, Iran, the Middle East publishing, and I think we have to read more of them. Absolutely. We are going to read more of you though, because you're working on something new on popular culture. Yes. So the book that I'm working on now is not going to be a novel. It's book of nonfiction repporters on the new global pop culture's coming out on the nut coming up from the Anglo Saxon world that coming from Asia you and I have. A lot about Cape up in planning a trip to go up to career. Oh, we should as we absolutely should. Because I just for the record think we should stay that. We're obviously academically anthropologically interested in k pop while unfortunately being interested in the music. We're going to be blasting the cable craze. Before we go. I have to ask you oversee the serious question, the one you get I'm sure asked all of the time will be the next two in Pakistani parliament, you know, I always have said that politics is something I'm fascinated by always have been. But I had this other love which is books on the written word, and so long as I'm able to talk about the politics. I wish to talk about to my writing, and I'm pretty happy doing that hit the Cape. Hope. That's thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks to say. Book the runaways published by by king the pig interview was produced by Julian go fund research by ROY Goodrich. Christine Evans, and by Kennedy, scarlet and Cusi. Gilpin to Tina go train. Like listening.
The WWE Presents - The New Day: Feel The Power
"I said You'd hear it from me so here. It is okay. I've been talking for weeks. I mentioned that I wasn't going to be the only one on this here. podcast platform so I am proud. I I am excited to share our first exclusive here on after the bell debut. Monday December second lookout podcast world. It's the new new day. Feel the power check out right now. This world premiere of the new days podcast trailer. Ladies and Gentlemen Settlement. Welcome to this brand new podcast new day power. It's actually yeah you can't start us off. Yeah I mean that's supposed to be the introduction. New became it about it. That was not my way when we talk about. I could talked about doing this. PODCAST thing you know. We talked about the name. And I didn't envision it being like that you should respect. I think he should restart started. Okay Ladies and gentlemen welcome is brand new podcast titled the New Day feels power. Aw every week you boys will be telling personal stories from inside and outside the ring and engaging and passionate debates on some of our favorite topics including sports video games music and more nothing is off limits from Bhutto's the birth of our children to everything in between new episodes so will be available weekly. So don't you dare be Sour Rate Review and add power. Wherever you get your podcast? Despite why would I say on television. I am very excited for Kofi Woods and E in this new venture no doubt going to be entertaining probably more entertaining than my show. Which is why I'm going to do my best to get the new day here on after the bell the week that they're podcast drops that's December second? The Week of hopefully. If I play Nice new day will be joining me right here on after the bell.
#1164 - CLASSROOM: The MVP of Minimum Viable Products
"This episode is brought to you by the new podcast. Go and see hosted by Malcolm Lad. Well it's a six part series focused on Lexus and their philosophy of Jin chie-jen Bhutto which means go and see for yourself find out how Japanese tea ceremony influence the engineering car window. How the sound of an engine is tuned like a musical composition to elicit emotions how Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation. Gladwin learns that no detail is left behind and the car company can learn more about cars by studying people follow. Guo on his journey starting march fifth wherever you like to listen in visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories? Like these. What's up? Hello and welcome decided to school. This is your host crisco kicking off a new week with the classroom episode. We'RE GONNA call it the. Mvp of minimum viable products. Well am I using startup language? I'm afraid I am but don't hold it against me. I'll explain as we go along an recent classroom episodes. We have looked at all kinds of topics how to decide between competing ideas the three elements of every compelling offer which might come up again today and then last week. We examined the difference between what people say they want. And what they really want over here in my world. It has twenty days until the money tree comes out. This is my new book. The money tree finding the fortune in your own backyard very excited about it. I'M GONNA go on the road to forty cities. I look forward to meeting many listeners and readers and as a quick reminder you can preorder the book now it actually helps authors when you do that preordered the book from your local bookstore. Just go in and tell them you want to order it in advance or any online retailer including of course Amazon Dot Com. All right so essentially. What's happening here in this classroom series? We are going from thinking about ideas to designing real offers. Concrete offers actual products and services. And I want to borrow this terminology this concept from the start up world which I almost never do. Try not to use buzzwords or you know trendy words or start up your words but I like this concept of minimum viable product. Mvp which is essentially if you've never heard the phrase before is basically a version of a product with just enough features to satisfy early customers and give you feedback for future product development. Okay so we're thinking about something that's really basic. The idea is to get to market quickly. You might have an idea. Let's say to launch a series of books. I did that long ago. I had a business called unconventional guides. And when I first started thinking about unconventional guides I was like. Wow what is my series of e-books but then. I realized I shouldn't try to think about what are the eight e books going to be. I should just have one. Let's start with that. Don't worry about your series of e books. Don't worry about the ten products are going to have. Don't worry about your entire service line. Break it down and find a way to start with one of those things so what is your MVP. What do you need to make that happen if you already know? That's great if not you might be inspired by one of these examples. What examples talking about going to give you three examples of minimum viable products number one little shoutout to one of our listeners. Who mentioned this at some point? The skype your dog service a service to call your dog up and have a conversation or maybe a video chat while you're at work then number two. Yoga Mat private label. So it's all about importing yoga mats with some kind of design or tax store some form of customization and at number three improve your tick Tock Profile. So this is also a service. Notice that two of these services the skype your dog and the Improve Your Tick Tock profile and one is a physical product. All right and with that improve your take talk profile. It's probably a one off service. You just do it once. You know you're GONNA help somebody you know what six seconds or less make better videos whereas the skype your dog service is more like a dog walker or somebody who's providing an ongoing service pay monthly. And there's GonNa be. I don't know three video calls during that month. So remember the lesson of thinking about offers. What is the promise pitch in price of each of them? How would it change? Someone's life what should they buy now? And how much does it cost? Last ones kind of a two part thing. Is it cost. How can they make a purchase so in a moment? I'll break down each of these examples. Talk about what needs to happen to get them to market quickly within thirty to sixty days. And then I'll give you your assignment. I I have a shutout jar sponsor. Want to thank them for making all this series completely free to you so a message on their behalf and then it breaking it down further say a big thank you to our longtime sponsorship station. Listen these guys have been with us from the beginning and have helped out a lot of our listeners. When you're selling online getting your orders out can be a real pain. How do you keep track of who gets which shipping carriers should use an? Are you getting the best rates? That's why you need ship station. Dot Com the fastest easiest and most affordable way to manage and ship. Your orders right now. Our listeners can try ship station free for sixty days when you use the opera coat hustle. There's absolutely no risk. You can start free trial without even entering your credit card info. Just go to ship station DOT COM. Click the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in hustle. That's ship station. Dot Com offer coat hustle. Ship station ship happen all right. We're back so number one skype your dog service. This is all about helping dog owners feel less guilty for leaving their dogs at home while they're off at work all day so it's about dogs but your target market is not dogs themselves It is dog owners. So what are the? Mvp needs minimum. Viable product needs to get this going by the way. I should just clarify this. Mvp minimum viable products can also apply to a service. Okay so products in this phrase at least in concept just refers to anything at all that you're offering so you might already know that but just to be clear. Mvp can be product or service. So what do you need well? It's pretty basic. You're GONNA need a computer with Internet access it. That's what you need to actually provide that service. You might need the ability to talk with dogs you know. How do you have the video chat with the ducks? You need a website or some way for people to sign up. Like how do people say? Yeah that sounds like a cool service. I want to pay for that. And then because they need to pay for it you need a payment processor or invoicing system. Now that is pretty much it that is all you need to actually launch the service which you could probably do tomorrow doesn't mean you're going to have one hundred sales tomorrow but technically to provide this service. That is really all you need a computer with Internet access the ability to talk with dogs which may or may not be acquired through the process Some way for people to sign up and then that payment processor which could be pay pal dot com it could be square and or an invoicing system which could be quickbooks or fresh books or there's numerous other brands software etc out there. But somehow you need a way to get people's money okay now that's it number two Yoga Mat private label so here you're selling a physical product so you actually need to get the inventory in some fashion. You need to get the YOGA MATS IMPORTED. You need to have whatever customization done. And then they're either going to come to your house. Or maybe you have arranged for fulfillment center or something but again minimum viable product really basic. Let's say the need to come to your house. Okay you need a physical product. Then you need some way to ship that product to customers I would recommend ship. Station are longtime three or sponsor but there are other options as well. Of course you could Just take them all to the post office. The point is you need some way to get your Yoga Mat to people who buy them then. You need a website most likely or you could sell them. Perhaps on some platform like Ebay or or any other third party platform but assuming you're selling online in some fashion. Which is the assumption. I'm GonNa make you need some way for people to see the mets and say yeah. That looks really cool. I want to get one of that was and then just like with skype. Your dog you need a payment processor. In this case I wouldn't recommend invoicing system because it's a physical product. You want people to pay for the product before you ship it. Lastly the Improve Your Tick Tock profile service. This is all about helping someone get more views or more popular on what I believe is now the world's largest social network which is incredible. I don't think I'd heard of it until like a year or two ago. But anyway if you don't know talk all about these short videos so you're like okay. I am. I happen to be an expert in this so I'm GONNA improve. Somebody's profile and helped him be more popular. What are you need? You need a sales page or a basic website or somewhere online where you explain this service where you make this promise and say here's why you should trust me. Here's why you should hire me because I'm going to help you be more popular get more followers etc. Whatever the benefit is then you need a payment processor or invoicing system and then you know if you're GonNa do this in a consultation format. Let's say that you need a scheduling calendar of some kind and he could just go back and forth with people by email but it might be a lot easier to have an online calendar. There are many different options for that where people can go and pick a time based on the available times that you select an advance. Okay so you need a sales page your basic website payment processor or an invoicing system and scheduling calendar. That's really yet now. Obviously to actually provide that service you're going to need to have some expertise in Tik Tok in social media but in terms of the technical parts of the only three things. You need all right so guiding principle here is really keeping it simple. Mvp What is the most basic or is that official definition official definition is a version of a product with just enough features to satisfy early customers and provide feedback for future development. I would also add something about keeping it simple for you. The minimum viable product isn't only about your customer. It's also about you helping you overcome those obstacles and roadblocks to getting something out in the world dealing with that issue of not having enough time to work on your hustle. We're going to talk about soon. And otherwise getting to the point where you're GonNa get feedback right away so coming up next. We're GONNA talk about finding time to work on your hustle. Then we're going to go into the pre launch and launch phase and finally focusing on marketing for the second two thirds of the year. I spent a lot of time talking about marketing. This first part is all about getting going but then the majority of the year. We're going to talk about how to market your product or service. Each classroom feature includes an assignment. This assignment is do you know what your MVP is everything you need to get your product or service out there as you just heard in those three examples. It might be really really simple. You don't know what it is. Well that's your assignment because it's going to help you it simple so that we can keep moving forward. Okay you can read notes for this in every classroom episode. This year hat side-hustle school dot com slash classroom. This has been episode eleven. Sixty four. Thank you so much for listening. Is Side Hustle School from the Onward Project?
#1190 - Q&A: With the downturn in this economy, should I quit my job?
"Here's a new podcast. I am excited to share with you. Produced by the team behind revisionist history go and see is a six part series focused on Lexus and the philosophy of Gin Gin Bhutto which means go and see for yourself an idea that stems from the belief that if you experience something yourself you have a better understanding of people and how to create something for them in this series. Lexus invites glad well to Japan to discover their unconventional thinking firsthand. Find out how a Japanese tea ceremony influence the engineering of a car window. How Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation and more follow the journey starting march fifth wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories? Like these in today's episode. A listener wants to know with the downturn in this economy. Should I quit my job? Welcome to school. My name is Chris Killer. I've been hearing from a lot of people in a time of transition one way or another and it's usually good to go case by case and look at different examples because the answer for one person might be different than for the other person but at the same time. One individual often serves as a proxy for lots of other people who are wondering the same thing. That's why I really liked this new format that we started with in January. I've had a lot of good feedback from people who've been enjoying all the questions and answers and just a side note when you send me these questions. Include some detail about your business so I can be more helpful. I appreciate people being concise. It's still good to be concise. I can sometimes be a little bit more helpful if I know more about the business now. I think I still have a good general answer for this one with some questions. You can ask yourself when you're facing this issue during the difficult time that we're all in so with the downturn in this economy. Should I quit my job? What should I do and how do I make that decision announcing a live virtual event? That's right I couldn't go on book tour at least not yet so I'm going digital on Saturday April fourth. I'm hosting a live virtual event to introduce my new book the Money Tree finding a fortune in your own backyard during this event. I'll be teaching sharing an answering questions for two hours. This is in partnership with my friend chase and the creative live team so chase. We'll be there as well and maybe even some special guests you can register for free and you'll also be able to watch it afterwards. Check IT OUT. Just go to school dot com slash virtual. That is once again. Side-hustle school dot com slash virtual. Your non working hours are precious and should be spent relaxing on the perfect bed. But which is the best mattress firm did the research and right now during the semi annual sale. You can save up to four hundred dollars on top rated brands. Plus you'll get a free adjustable base when you spend sixty nine or more so you can enjoy the sleep you deserve without doing any of the hard work. Go on kick your feet up and say big when you shop now credit. This is Sanjay from New York. I've listened to the show for a while now and this is my first chance. I actually ask a question so I was about to make a leap from a corporate job to something more independent striking out on my own host. Very excited about it But now I'm a little torn with with everything that's going on On the one hand I'm thinking a making a move like this seems incredibly risky and maybe even a little foolish at a time like this when when when the economy is doing so poorly but on the other hand I recognize. There's never really a good time to take a leap of faith and sometimes down. Moments are actually when you know when the greatest opportunities arise so. I'm just curious if you have any thoughts or perspective for how do I? How do I think about that in and determine if this is the right time thank you so much Sanjay So glad to know you are out there. This is just a really great question. I feel like we could sit down and have some back and forth and talk about it for twenty minutes or so so maybe that'll be the new format for next year. But just based on what you've shared here. I think a lot of people are in a situation when they have been building something and they've been thinking about making that move just like you said but now they're like what do I do also highlighted very well. This point about how sometimes down moments are actually win. The Great Opportunities Arise. That's what I've been talking about in teaching about fairmount and some other formats recently. So how do you actually make this decision? Which is also a great way to frame the question by the way. This is like a five question. You know asking not what you should do. But how should you think about it and make that decision? I love that okay so I think it all has to do with your situation specifically relating to the side hustle slash business itself. Okay so it really matters a lot. What this business is what you're trying to do. In the extensive voice note which was otherwise. Excellent Sanjay didn't mention. That was so that to me is the critical point. Is this you have something already that you've been doing for a while. It going well. Is it providing a sustainable level of income and crucially very important? Third question is the kind of business that will be able to thrive in this new environment. Which we're going to be in for some time. Both the current president reality and whatever the recovery is. It's not going to be short term. So if your answers to these questions are yes then. That's great you know. This is a good sign to move forward if no probably not a good idea to go all right now. Let's take a couple of examples here I'm GONNA. I'M GONNA choose some extreme examples and obviously it's probably going to be the simple if it were this simple easy but if your business is a travel agency if Sanjay was like yeah. I've got this travel agency that I've been building. Is this a good time to go all in I would say you know what I think? The answer is no basically like even if it was working before yes people will eventually travel again but it will be a while and they will come back slowly and the entire industry will be struggling for a long time and some of the things that worked before won't work again. Okay so travel agency not a great business. Start Right now on the other hand if your business is training corporate remote employees for example and you already have existing contracts plus. You have some sales contacts. You're working then. This is probably a really good time to quit your job go all in. So that's why I think in this environment. It really is key to ask that additional question. There's other questions you're always important. Is it going well now? Do you think the income level of sustainable but now in this environment that additional question about what's going on right now just because it's affecting so much and I don't want you to make the wrong decision. I know it's a really big one so once again. Thank you Sanjay. And for everyone out there. Trying to navigate this new landscape of uncertainty and disruption world turned upside down etc. Know that you're not alone will keep doing everything we can to support you. Hear what the program but he sure you take care of yourself. That's my gentle encouragement for you today. If you have a question of your own come to satisfy the school dot com slash questions for an appeal to them throughout the year. Whatever else happens in this crazy world along with updates from other listeners as they launch their projects or as they launched do projects if they had travel agencies before. Okay stay tuned my name. Is Chris Gil about this? Is Side Hustle school interest from the onward projects?
#1189 - Q&A: What do you think about Shopify?
"Here's a new podcast. I am excited to share with you. Produced by the team behind revisionist history go and see is a six part series focused on Lexus and the philosophy of Gin Gin Bhutto which means go and see for yourself an idea that stems from the belief that if you experience something yourself you have a better understanding of people and how to create something for them in this series. Lexus invites glad well to Japan to discover their unconventional thinking firsthand. Find out how a Japanese tea ceremony influence the engineering of a car window. How Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation and more follow the journey starting march fifth wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories? Like these shop has seen tremendous growth in the past couple of years. It used to be that I would mention them along with maybe three or four other companies doing something similar they are ecommerce provider light to get a website setup and sell something right away and now it's kind of like the coca cola of providers or maybe Google as a better analogy in the sense that if you think about search engines Google as a search engine. There are other search engines. But how many others could you really name right so shop if I has done a tremendous job a becoming a market leader reaching lots of customers but who are they a good fit for who might not be a good fit for what I think of them? In general. That's what today's caller wants to know so shuttle Fi pros and cons in today's episode announcing a live virtual event? That's right I couldn't go on book tour at least not yet so I'm going digital on Saturday April fourth. I'm hosting live virtual event to introduce my new book the Money Tree. Finding the fortune in your own backyard during this event. I'll be teaching sharing an answering questions for two hours. This is in partnership with my friend. Chase Jarvis and the creative team so chase. We'll be there as well and maybe even some special guests you can register for free and you'll also be able to watch it afterwards. Check it out. Just go to sign a school dot com slash virtual that is once again side-hustle school dot com slash virtual your non working hours precious and should be spent relaxing on the perfect bed. But which is the best while mattress firm did the research and right now. During the semi-annual sale you can save up to four hundred dollars on top rated brands. Plus you'll get a free adjustable base when you spend six ninety nine or more so you can enjoy the sleep. You deserve without doing any of the hard work so go on. Kick your feet up and save big when you shop now. Hey Chris this is berry from Nashville and I've been following the show for the past couple of years in love this new format. What do you think about shopping fai? I've noticed a lot of people using shop a fight for their business. It looks easy to east up but you have an opinion on it. Which should I be aware of if I go that route for an ECOMMERCE hustle banks and I look forward to hearing from you awesome? Thank you so much. Glad you're enjoying the show and yeah let's talk about Sherifi just the headline too long. Don't read too long. Don't listen my opinions. Chef is great. Actually we have a partner offer with them if you go to shop dot com slash side. Hustle. You can get a twenty one day free trial which is usually better than any public offer they have so you can get an extra week of a free trial by using that link but of course if you prefer you can just sign up directly to chop up by DOT com. And I'm happy to recommend it because so many of our listeners have had a good experience with them. I described him as an e commerce solution provider meaning that they offer a shopping cart. They offer their own payment processing et CETERA. But it's really more than just that it can be your whole website the front and back end and they have a lot of NEAT PLUG INS that you've probably encountered as a customer on various sites that you shop by whether you realize it or not one of the most common ones. That's actually I think it's almost becoming too common in the sense that it might not be as effective going forward because so many people are using it but it was really neat. When it first came out was this discount. Wheel thing that showed up would go to one of these sites. That's using shop up by and there'd be a little pop up window that's like hey spin the wheel and you'll get ten percent off or you'll get a certain dollar amount for there's some other promotion so that's just one example of something they do. It's really interesting. It doesn't require a lot of expertise on your end to install and get set up which is one of the best parts about using a service like Shabba by because it's a visual interface that you can work with. Even if you're not a coder now shop particularly good at anything product-based so not services as much as a product based business that scales because it automatically keeps up with your inventory so when I say product based business that scales I mean The kind of business. That's not selling just off items kind of business or side-hustle selling something that people can purchase over over. For example it could be clothing collectibles. Art Prints Journals Yoga Mats. These are just a few things that people have featured on the show have used. Sherifi to sell as for downsides It is highly customizable but perhaps not as customizable as you know just building directly on wordpress or another platform. If you are a coder or want to go that route work. You're working with a particularly skilled programmer. And then also. It's the monthly subscription. That's probably the main thing. If you use a low cost hosting plan like are hosting partner. They cost four dollars a month right so you can actually have your website for four or five dollars a month. Shabaab starts around twenty nine dollars a month and of course it goes up from there. They have different price terrorism packages and so on. So that's just something to be aware of but in terms of the service itself. Nothing at all wrong with it. Many of our case to these have used it to great success. Some happy to recommend it again. Our offer dot com slash side-hustle. Or course you can just go directly to shop dot com if you prefer listeners. If you have a question come to satisfy school dot com slash questions. We'll be featuring them throughout the year along with updates from other listeners as they launched their projects. Thanks so much my name is Chris. Globo this is side also school from the onward project.
#1156 - Out-of-Work Writer Turns to Profitable Poetry
"This episode is brought to you by the new podcast go and see hosted by Malcolm. Glad well produced by the team behind revisionist history go and see as a six part series focused on Lexus and a philosophy of Gin Gin Bhutto which means go and see for yourself in this series. Lexus invites glad well to Japan to discover their unconventional thinking firsthand. Go inside lexuses headquarters ride along on a top secret test track with master driver sit in the expertly. Designed seat actually lowers to welcome you into the vehicle. Follow Gladwin journey starting March Fifth. Wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories? Like these well to a brand new month we have turned the corner of Leap Day leap year etc. Now it's back to normal months but this is going to be a good one. Good Mark Wasn't today story. Have you ever wanted to make a living doing poetry slams me neither okay but listen the more interesting question is? Is it possible in this story? Down His luck writer composes impromptu poems for strangers in the street he put smiles on the faces of everyone he meets. Is this too trendy? Is it only a fad? We'll stay tuned for the story right after the at hiring used to be tough multiple job sites stacks of resumes but today hiring can be easy and you only have to go to one place to get it done. That place is Ziprecruiter so effective that four out of five employers who post on ZIP recruiter get a quality candidate. Within the first day I got powerful matching technology in the. Send your job to over. One hundred of the Web's leading job sites right now to try ziprecruiter for free. Our listeners can go to ziprecruiter dot com slash side hustle. That is ziprecruiter dot com slash side-hustle Ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire ten years ago. Brian Sony Wallace was living in a medieval Scottish village researching ecoconscious living a year later. He graduated and moved back to United States and economic turmoil says right after the global financial crisis and there were no jobs to be found in the ECHO. Space was after all just a fledgling industry at the time he took a job fundraising for a local nonprofit. But that didn't last long. He was laid off and spent the next six months looking for work with limited success. Eventually he turned to a contract job and grant writing to make ends meet but to make matters worse. Brian was going through a break up at the time and sleeping on his ex's couch with a job he disliked that awkward living situation and no prospects on the horizon. He had officially hit rock bottom in an effort to lift his spirits. He began frequenting poetry slams at night. Poetry slams spoken word competition. We're poets perform for a live audience. He found listening to the stories helped him feel less alone during his time of isolation in fact Brian enjoyed them so much that being somewhat of a writer himself decided to undertake a challenge to figure out a way to pay his rent. Play a new location for an entire month using only his poetry skills. Although his situation was dire he wasn't hoping to set the world on fire he was just determined not to be beat so he took his feet to the street. He bought himself an old typewriter for twenty dollars drugs. Busy intersection and sat down with a sign. Read give me a topic. All right you appoint pay me what you think it's worth prime was well aware. He looked like total Weirdo. Just sitting there typewriter at the ready but as they say every movement needs a leader and at least one follower and soon brian had his first disciple woman with a buzz cut walked up to him and said I don't have any money he responded. But that's okay an offer to write her opponent for free. Then something amazing happened. She began to open up telling him the story of her father. A truck driver who was always on the road working to provide for his family Bryan All typewriter starting with the woman's name and the words for you soon enough. He a one of a kind poet as he read it out loud to her. She began to cry. She then rush off to an ATM and paid Brian for the poem. He was happy to do for free used his earnings to buy a burrito eating his free lunch. Brian realized something people needed what he had to offer. It had real value so he kept going sitting on the street every day meeting strangers offering poems on a pay what you will basis. He believes it resonated because we have a crisis of connection in the modern world. We've gotten rid of so many of our old shared stories and are looking for new ones to tell us who we are and how we're all connected. His poems provide a small dose of that. The moment he knew this concept could be taken beyond. The street was during a recession at Venice beach near Los Angeles. A big burly realtor came up to him gave him his number and invited Brian to be the writer in residence at their upcoming corporate party. A week later he was sitting next to the bar. Swanky party typing poems for the staff and their guests after that night. Bryant's future looked bright. He met the challenge successfully paid his rent for the month and kept at it after that he began receiving referrals and was hired by everyone from Google to macy's mall of America to Amtrak and even the National Park Service from time to time he pick up some media coverage through one of these events and that would lead to more referrals. Get this after a while Bryan was earning about as much money as a put for higher as he was a grant writer and didn't come from some grand. Pr Plan but from showing up over and over wherever he was welcome and writing for people on topics they cared about. He dropped the grant writing altogether picked up some work as an art educator to level income all while keeping up the pros on the street he received more media coverage from outlets like the New York Times and the Guardian also built a website rent poet dot com and people began to find him by googling higher poet which by the way. That's a real thing and apparently people search for it these days. Brian can generate anywhere from two thousand to ten thousand dollars per month with a little alliteration to get that one. A little a little ration- he feels like he's living surreal. American dream by paying his bills from the most unlikely art form poetry. There've been times he's felt like throwing in the towel and moving on but then a unique opportunity comes along keeps engaged that recently when he was approached by publisher his book the poetry of strangers. What I learned traveling America with a typewriter we'll be published in the summer of twenty twenty began with a struggle. It seemed impossible but rent poet. Dot Com is now unstoppable capitalist poetry. How about that yes? You can't do that. You love something. That's totally fun and might seem random. you know to some people or maybe even to yourself at a certain point like it did for Brian But then ended up not just doing but also doing well on. This episode reminds me of of one from long ago episode. Two fifty two for everybody out there interested in making money through poetry. That episode was called Managerial Account in Dubai. Earns one thousand dollars a month hosting poetry slams? So there's at least two people doing this. And by the way March twenty first is World Poetry Day which is a UNESCO declared a day of celebration purpose is to promote the reading writing publishing and teaching poetry throughout the world. So I don't know if you have to do anything to get ready for that show up but that is coming up on the horizon all right. Congratulations Brian and get work. Thank you for allowing us to share your story and listeners. No matter the drama no matter the weather inspiration with action is so much better. Today's show notes are at school dot com slash eleven fifty six. We'll be back tomorrow with eight non rhyming episode but I hope you enjoy this one. My name is Chris. Gil about this is a school a probably onward project.
"Support for this American. Life comes from ZipRecruiter, some job boards, overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes. But ZipRecruiter finds the right people for you. And actively invites them to apply. Try it for free at ZipRecruiter dot com slash American. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. Tis Merican life from WBZ Chicago. I'm Eric glass and here at a radio show we were talking about romantic comedies now. They don't get a lot of respect. I think maybe because the bad ones every part of them just feels too obvious, you know, couple meets, but they hate each other at first they go through some things that make them, you know, weren't some important lesson about themselves. You know from the very beginning of the gonna end up together. And then no surprise, they do what has not done. Well, it's all too obvious and tired, and you can feel the gears working in the thing. One of the producers on our show, Neil. He wholeheartedly really loves romantic comedies has favorite cities watched over and over dozens of times he wants collaborated with producer of sleepless in Seattle on a rom com. Scrip the never got made. He's all kinds of thoughts about them. And he realized this thing about rom coms, and what's so satisfying about the good ones. They really think is true. I used to say that it was just watching just like close ups of two beautiful people being. Funny and clever and witty to each other. Yeah. Being there sort of vessels or sometimes west were selves, but then eventually their best selves, and that was kind of enough for me. You know, what happens to people shut everybody out quit, peaceful light. Now, they fester let's make Ryan and Kevin Kline with the fake Frenchaccent in the movie, French kiss. By investing inside, fester, and rot. I've seen it happen. You'll become one of those Hunchback lonely old men sitting in the corner of a crowded cafe mumbling to yourself twitchy. You people make to h. If there's a simple thing that resonates for me. It's that in the best of these movies. You get to see two people get along in a way that is freight. This is like nice to see that part of people. Yeah. And and I think it's also I think if you're projecting it all it's the idea that you can like be that connected to someone receive someone that well when you see it like, oh, yeah. That would be nice. That's why like the ones where people spend a lot of time together that's key for Neo and ios personal ranking of these films, which has the two thousand nine film, the ugly truth at the very very bottom. The three round comes at the very top like the tussled hair above Hugh, grant's head are French kiss two weeks notice which is real estate rom com. And it's very favorite thoughts people's favourite when Harry met Sally, and they're all at the top of the list for this very reason because of how much time the couple spends together talking. Take when Harry met Sally. The thing that I like about it is that at least you get a vision of what their relationship actually is. Because they spend twelve years together before they finally get together. So you get to see real fights. You get to see there really should grow. You get to see their personalities clash, and so they actually have a chance to fall in love by talking to each other as opposed to in romantic comedies now or like with is the montage and music playing. And then you just supposed to come out of that thinking, they're in love they actually spend time with each other. Like, there's a sequence of scenes in when Harry met Sally where they're just getting along. And there's talking on the phone. Well. Leave me. No, I was watching Casablanca channel eleven. Thank you got it. Are you telling me you would be happy with victim is low then with Humphrey Bogart? Did I say that when we drove to New York? I never said that I would never have said that. All right, fine. How did you away? Even sleeping why? 'cause I haven't been sleeping. I think if I was dating someone who hated when when Harry met Sally, I don't know that I could date them. I don't know that I could like if you're not interested in like the relationship between Harry and Sally, I don't really understand what kind. Wow. You're a bad person. It just means. I don't think I understand you. Okay. Romantic comedies are contrived. The people are way more clever and better than real life. The stories are full of things that would be ridiculous names. Maybe even on the stock side, they haven't any of us. But this totally artificial forum when it works reminds you of what it feels like to be in love. And if somebody who wants to listen to what you say. And who says things that you want to us to. And so today, we devoting our whole show to rom coms today's episode, by the way is rerun and each of our acts today, we found a story that reminds us of some aspect of a movie rom com, and yes, we did go on a search for stories of people running sprinting down the street in real life in an urgent rush to tell someone that they love them. Stay with us. Neat cute. The first thing around come needs is a couple of meat in an appealing way, the meet cute the mikita supposed to make you feel like no matter. What happens these two people should be together? There are so many ways to do this in the wedding planner. Matthew, mcconaughey? Hey saves. Jennifer Lopez from a runaway dumpster that is rolling down the street in Pretty Woman. Richard Gere gets Austin, very fancy car and Julia Roberts gives them directions bringing a baby Katherine Hepburn picks up. Cary grant's golf ball on a golf course. Reality bites. Winona Ryder throws her cigarette into Ben Stiller's car and kneels favourite when Harry met Sally. The thing about when Harmon Sally's has an extended cue, which I like, they take a road trip from Chicago to New York. And so they're kind of meeting for several hours and from the very beginning. It's contentious because Harry has all these theories about relationships that she finds like crazy off pudding. What I'm saying is and this is not a come on anyway shape before. Is that men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way. That's not true. I have a number of men friends, and there is no sex involved. Yes. I do. Yes. I do think you do you're saying I'm having sex with these men with that my knowledge what I'm saying is they all want to have sex with you. They do not to they do not do too. I think it's the chemistry. Like, it sets up that there's something about them that you wanna root for macoutes do happen in real life. But for this first story in stay show. We have a piece of fiction story where the meek you plays an important role in the story as a turning point for one of the characters the story by Simon rich, the actor Daniel Radcliffe ready for us. I don't understand professor zoned Kaplan said while his girlfriend's sobbed into a pillow. I thought you liked to I do she said, it's just you get them from the every year is starting to get a little impersonal. I mean this time you didn't even include a card Zonda. Winston a reasoning was sound. I apologize. He said I obviously made never in judgment. He tried to take a hand. But he pulled it out of reach. Do you? Remember what I did for your birthday? She said I knew Bunsen buddy wanted I met you a pair of wool socks. So your feet wouldn't get cold in the lab. You never make that kind of for me. All you do is think about yourself. That's incorrect onto said what about MLA diem? It took me nine months to synthesize that element. And I named it off to you. You were going to synthesize that element. Anyway, Emily said you needed it for you secret project Silva all thing in your lab. And the lady wasn't about me. It was about you. I mean for God's sake. You wouldn't even tell me what it does. Zoned aside is that anything I can do to make it up to you. Emily blinked back some taes. I don't know. I mean, it's not like you can just go back in time and get me a different present. Zoned is expression. Brightened wait there. He said I'll be right back. Zonda? Hurry down the whole crept into his laboratory and locked the door behind him his time machine was right where he left it. He climbed inside the silver orb and flicked on the palace, which his plan was simple travel back in time to this morning, finding you gift for Emily and bring it to the present. But there were a couple of risks. That was a chance for example that using the machine would cause the universe to explode. He'd never tested the thing out before there was also no guarantee that he'd be able to find a good present. He only had enough Emily idiom to fuel five minutes of time travel that didn't give him a lot of wiggle room. Wherever he went. He would have to shop efficiently. Zonda was usually a pretty good problem solve up. He had for example, invented a time machine. But quantum physics and nuclear hydraulics trivial compared to the rigors of gift shopping. He massaged his temples trying to remember if Emily had dropped any hints lately he vaguely recalled her staring at a vase in Creighton barrel. Without place was full of vases. There was no way he'd be able to pick out the right one. He was trying to remember the name of a favorite perfume when thought entered his head. Maybe he was thinking too small his machine could transport him to any time in place in human history. Why go back a few hours when he could go back a few centuries. He knew Emily loved. Shakespeare, she Dritan. How senior thesis on one of his tragedies why not travel back to the globe theatre and swipe an original script. It wouldn't be too difficult. He reasoned bullied have to do was dash backstage and grab one. It would be the most impressive gift she'd ever received in her life. Which tragedy? Emily written a thesis about he knew it was one of the king ones, Richard something Charles something. But there are a bunch of those what if he got it wrong. It was too risky. It was always jewelry. He knew the General Construction dates for king Tut's tomb. He could park in front of the pyramid run inside. And snatch a Jade stone. He ended the coordinates. I'm was about to push the lever when he started to second guess himself again. Buying women. Jewelry was always Chauncey Emily had very specific tastes. And what if she didn't like Jade, it wasn't like he'd be able to go back and return it? He thought back to the night they met he was finishing his PHD at the time and his lab and closed early because of Easter he'd stopped his papers into his briefcase in shuffled through the rain to the hundred and sixteenth street station. It was four zero five AM on the platform was deserted. Except for Emily. It had been several days since on does loss compensation with a human. And when she started to speak to him he felt the stirrings of a panic attack. But Emily's friendly smile managed somehow to put him at ease. She was awfully cheerful. Given her circumstances. A metro card it expired. She said and the machines were broken she been stranded for over twenty minutes. Would he be willing to sell her a ride? Sandra noted and watched as she rooted around in her hus- some cash to pay him back. It was a moment or two before it occurred to him that she had given him the chance to be gallant. You don't have to reimburse me he said, I'll swipe you in for free. She thanked him enthusiastically, and then shockingly wrapped her arms around his torso Zonda wasn't used to physical contact. And although the hug was brief. A course his entire body to Tingo from head to toe. It was a startling sensation. Like walking through an electrically charge failed. He still felt that way whenever she touched him. It's on. There was an and believed fiercely in random cozy. But by the end of their sheds subway ride. He was sure he'd experienced miracle. This wonderful person had shown up out of nowhere and given him a chance at love. And in return, he given her three years of misery. He thought about all of his Saturday nights at the lab. Ignoring her Kohl's making excuses. He thought about the way she cried when he handed to the tulips. How could he make up for threes of romantic ineptitude with a single birthday present? He closes is and concentrated. The had to be a right answer. Klay Patras crown. Joan of arc sold. A baby dinosaur. What was the greatest thing? He could give the very best present in the world. It was the hardest problem he'd ever attempted to solve. But then as always the solution caned him. On the his time machine by the hundred sixteenth street station and dashed into the subway. It was three forty five AM little over three years in the post. Emily was standing by the turnstile swiping and Reese, wiping her expired metro card. He took a deep breath and approach. Let me guess he said expired metro code she chuckled. Had you know. I had a hunch come on also three SI K. She said I'll just go to the machine upstairs. The machines are all broken. He said. You better catch this one. He said the next one won't come for another twenty minutes before she could protest. He took out his metro card and swipe to through the turnstile to smile back at him with confusion on you coming. She asked as the train pulled into the station. Zoolander voted his is he worried that if he looked at her he would start to cry. I need to take a different trying. He said, well, at least let me pay you for that. That's all right. He said his voice breaking to present. He was about to turn away when she leaned over the Tunstall and hugged him. Who's exactly as he remembered it long Brown hair brushing softly against his neck is entire body tingling with wolves. Thanks. She said. He tried to say you welcome. But the words in his throat. He waved goodbye. People the train. Then he marched out of the station alone. Radcliffe reading the short story the present by Simon rich from richest book glass girlfriend on earth also star Simon riches new TV show miracle workers the series premiere February twelfth. Now, you we got. To the obstacle. The main body of most romantic comedies is there's something there's something or a group of things keeping them apart is always obstacles that are keeping the the these two people who are faded to be together apart. The obstacles can be big little Tom Hanks's over his dead. Ex wife in sleepless in Seattle in Notting hill guy, falls of somebody who's famous for him and Bridget Jones. He's going after the wrong guy, which of course is pride to prejudice. And I don't know so many films. It's one of the most common, and when Harry met Sally, they each you're involved with other people for out of the film, but the real obstacle is that the friends which this as a special meaning because if you remember when Harry met Sally on that car ride originally, he told her that he didn't think that men women could ever just be friends. So this is new for him but Christmas scene in the film with sidekick character best friend by Bruno Kirby where they talk about those relationships. What do you enjoy being with before? Attractive? I sleeping with them. Afraid to let yourself happy. Why can't you give me credit for this? This is a big thing for me and never had a relationship with the woman that didn't involve sex, Philip growing. We went out looking for a real life. Couple facing some obstacle that kept them being together. And that's not actually very hard to find. But one of our producers own Baker heard about a couple where the obstacle confronted them. Once the relationship got going was pretty unusual. It was a couple of one of her friends was in years ago quick warning. Everybody's listening to this podcast version of our show. There's some words that we have and this and other stories in the program, if you don't wanna hear that maybe listening with kids, you can get a beep version at our website this American life dot org. Here's my friend. Michelle Bhutto is one of the most Daesh is ballsy people. I know and she brings us attitude into all aspects of her life, including relationships. This is a story about her and her boyfriend it starts in the nineties when she was eighteen going to college living in Miami. And as college students, do she adopted a new cool persona herself. When that wore dark lipstick cargo pan and danced in reggae clubs every weekend. I loved dancing like I want to be a fly girl on in living color. I definitely would have been like snoop Dogg's like video had the chance. And yeah, I was out one night at a teeny Bopper club. And that's where I saw him. I remember there the smoke machine was working. It felt like we were at a bar mitzvah somewhere in jersey. And literally when the smoke cleared, I'm like who is that Tallboy with the khakis on and the big old chain in the. A curly hair. How do I talk to him and of just sort of like inched my way over to him on the dance floor. I remember like doing this move where we're like we both sort of like roll in teach with his body. And I can you like get a whiff of his Jakarta Warren associate. And like, my heart was beating so facet could hear it. And I'm like, oh my God. This is what love is. I feel like a Puerto Rican. Molly ringwald. Like any good I encounter there were magical coincidences we were walking out to the parking lot. And we realized we both at the same car Mazda protege's both lease by our moms. Was that a moment where you're like, this is fate. I mean, not only did I go to this club. Oh, definitely. I'm like what like out of all the cars in the world at of all the dance clubs you and me he was eighteen to, but he seemed to really up he worked at best buy selling TV's, and he was also a drug dealer, and in my mind, I was like oh my God. He's so cool. He so good at math like he counts. So quickly. In case you're thinking drug dealer red flag. He was barely a drug dealer. He dealt. We'd nearly every woman I know has dated a week dealer. They quickly got serious, and he was Michelle's first big relationship. He was funny smart. They had good banter. And he was this incredibly accepting person made her feel comfortable confident about her body and about sex, which she'd never really felt before she imagined a real future with him. The plan was I mean, looking back on it seems so basic, but just to be with each other to have fun to have kids and to go out to dinner after moving on a Friday night. You know, all garden. Cheesecake factory just kind of exists in a really cute apartment with beige carpet in white blinds. Yeah. The American dream fast forward three years into the relationship. Their lives are totally entwined. Their families are close they've AK Shen together. It was that point of no return place in a relationship where just like here it is. This is it. But there was this one thing that seems sort of off a lack of photographic evidence. No pictures of himself as a kid specifically. No school pictures. No, prom picture, even his mom didn't have any shots of him. It was just weird. And then one night I had a dream that he called me up. He told me that he never graduated high school own. I called him the next day. And it was like a head is crazy dream. He just started crying. I could just hear him gently sobbing and he's like. Not only did I not graduate high school. I don't even know how to read. I'm just like how like I thought. I knew you like what? Like haven't we read something together their entire relationship flash? Before her eyes one moment after another, suddenly, it all made sense. And I was going back. You know, I realize like oh my God. This is why we go to the same restaurant. We would go to the same restaurant, and he'd order the same thing because he couldn't read the menu, and we like to go to restaurants that head pitchers of the food. You know, I would write him poems and stuff, and he's like read them to me, you know, it's better when I hear it from you never want to go through his mail. I had to help them when you stop and think about it. The fact that he'd been able to navigate the world convincingly and keep this from Michelle for over three years. It was an incredible feat. He must have been covering this up constantly when he told me why he didn't know how to read a just made my heart break, even more. I mean, his dad. Dad died when he was young. And so his mom had to work three jobs, and he was depressant as dropped out of the fifth grade, and nobody ever noticed his mom didn't want to deal with it. And you know, a much judging 'cause must've been so hard for her. The only thing that kept going to my mind. I remember was I wanna save you. I wanna help you. I wanna make this better. You know, we're going to get back on track to what we planned. She was not going to allow this obstacle to push them apart. She jumped into action this was before you could Google everything. So Michelle went to the library and did research on adult literacy, she broke it down into manageable steps and wrote out a time for him my game plan for him. It was I had a list of places he could go to to go to night school a therapist. He could talk to easy adult reading books. Tips and tricks. There was like a whole sort of care package of lake had just take it on. And he was like really overwhelmed by it. I know like, okay. This is a really big deal. I get it Michelle's dyslexic and her boyfriend didn't have a learning disability. But still she empathize with how hard it can be to read. And at first Michelle's boyfriend was totally on board with the plan. But after a year of Michelle offering him solutions, he still hadn't taken any action. It just seemed like he didn't want to he got around the world just fine without reading she started realizing wait his literacy was away bigger problem for her than it was for him. And it really started pushing them apart I stopped being his girlfriend is sort of became his coach or his or his mom, and it wasn't fun for either one of us. I tried every tactic. I was patient. I was nice. I was stern. And then I Blake kind of backed off. I'm like whatever he needs to do on his own time. It started to bleed its way into every moment. They shared together like she could never fully relax anymore. Even when they were happy, she'd snap herself out of it and think wait now, we're forgetting that there's this huge looming problem, and we've got to fix it before everything can be okay. She started to resent him. We don't even laugh anymore. We're not even like holding hands like we used to. We're not even having sex like we used to simply because you're not even going to class like if he just went to a class. I would just be so happy. Did you feel like if you love me, you will learn to read? Absolutely. I mean is that weird? But I totally felt that I was like who's gonna read books to our kids at night. You gotta get it together. This was like the vein of my existence. I was like, and I couldn't really talk to anyone about it. Because how embarrassing 'cause I didn't wanna I didn't want my friends to think less of him. You know, and I want him to still feel like a man. So I just kind of like carried this by myself. And at some point is looked at myself. I was like he got to go. But even then it was like, how do I leave somebody when they're down? Well, in a sense it actually like it made the relationship lasts longer because everything became about him reading. And so if you could just crack that or fix that. Then maybe it would work out. Oh my God. What are you? Dr Phil with tits. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I always live like that. If I could just lose those twenty pounds. If I could just have a clean house all the time. I could do everything I really wanna do on my list. And so, yeah, there was that you know, we could just get past this. Then we'll, you know live the life riposte to live. That's the promise of an obstacle. You feel like all you have to do is concrete, and you get your happy ending. How would it play out in rom com? The obstacle being his literacy. Ooh, okay, bone. He learned how to read he writes, like a New York bestseller leg situation. It becomes a movie. Channing Tatum place him Lisa on plays me, and we live happily ever after with like a bunch of mix children in a huge apartment with beige carpet by cheesecake factory amazing. See I was imagining that he would like greet you at the airport with like a sign that he had handwritten himself that was like Michelle I can read now my God. And you'd see it and he start crying. And he's worked so hard behind your back secretly going to night school the whole time. Oh, I know just like fucked stripper. Okay. She wasn't a stripper, but she was sleeping with Michelle's boyfriend Michelle suspects that the entire time. She was struggling to get him to read. He was cheating on her. She was so focused on the obstacle. She thought they were facing. She totally missed it. Of course as Rahm comes go. The thing missing from this story is calm at least until Michelle started doing stand up and figured out. How to tell it on stage. When did you just I like this story's finan- when a put my act like it's actually like really sad. But here. Here. You know, most of my my the first ever wrote was about him. Will you tell me? Sure, it's lines at DisneyWorld. Remind me of my ex-boyfriend three hours away. Ding for two minute ride AL. But the story I didn't feel comfortable doing it on stage till? Thirteen years later, I stayed with him. But then it got like real ratchet like we get into arguments, and I'd say shit like, but you said you learn how to rave a moon. Like, that's not how you why your first ship to. In her act chief and talks about how great it feels to tell the story on stage. But it just felt so good. It was so cathartic. I was like, yes. Got to get this out and start doing jokes about him and blogging about him and my friends alike. You gotta be careful 'cause you're using his first and last name. And I was like bitch. Give fuck that motherfucker camera. All right, good. I everybody. I gotta go. Baker is one of the producers of our show shall Patel is the host of the podcast late night. Whenever you NYC coming up a real life rom com than above Shakespeare, real kisses that are like stage kisses and the police that's an a minute Gog radio when our program continues. Support for this American. Life comes from ZipRecruiter, some job boards, overwhelm you with tons of the wrong resumes. But ZipRecruiter finds the right people for your job and actively invites them to apply. So you get qualified candidates fast. See why ZipRecruiter is rated number one by employers in the US based on trust pilot rating of hiring sites with over one thousand reviews. Try it for free at this exclusive web address ZipRecruiter dot com slash American. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash American. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. It's American Myra glass. Today's program rom com stories mostly taken from real life that mimic things that we have seen in romantic comedies. We've arrived at three of our show at three the run this, of course, in romantic comedy is the scene where somebody has to cross town at some point literally sprinting to chase down the person they love and stop them from either marrying somebody else winning back somehow it doesn't end up at the airport. But lots of these do an honestly say I was surprised we found this ever happened in real life. But here is one Serie like that Cohen's dad used to like to tell the story it was about his own marriage. He died a couple years ago. His name is Ron the story goes like this when he was getting together with Marissa's, mom versus mom, Debbie. Drove across the country to move in with Ron in Florida and for two left. She had the post office forward her mail to his house in Florida. And he saw got her arrive from her ex fiance. I think it's. Crazy. But my dad decided that he saw that letter and he had to read it this Marissa. So he just opened the letter read the whole thing. And as my dad put it my mom's ex-fiancee was declaring like his undying love for her and was like begging her not to go and was saying he wants to get back together with her and my dad freaked out. He decided this is it it's our never decides is going to meet her in Dallas, which is where she has her car trip. And also is where the ex ex-fiancee lives he hurries to the airport the way he told it was he was going through the airport. You know, running through the Florida airport gets a rain out of a little like Gumbo machine. Puts like, you know, how much that costs like a quarter or whatever in the Gumbo machine pulls out a Mickey Mouse ring, because it's Florida naturally gifts on the plane flies meets my mom and Dallas and right there in the airport gets on the second. He sees her. I had no plans of seeing next say at all whatsoever. His mercies mom, Debbie. She had no idea the ex-fiancee had written a letter or rhonette opened it all she knew you'd offered to drive the rest of the way across the country with her and was going to meet her in Dallas airport. He gets off the plane and I greet him. And practically the very next thing out of his mouth is will you marry me? And he opens up his hand in his hand. He's got this little Mickey Mouse touring in his hand. And I am not proud of my reaction at all. Do you wanna hear it? Yeah. Yeah. Actually, are you grazie? This is the craziest thing I've ever heard of barely know you that was my reaction. I have to say that is my favorite part of the story. I could have been a little more gentle. Now, what I love about it is that in the movies when somebody does a gesture like that like often it's way crazier than what he did. Yes. And kinda stock rish, but the movie just acts like, oh that was a totally lovely thing for a person to do because out. And I like that you had the normal human reaction that a normal person would have would be like are you nuts? Right. Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Well. I'm too pragmatic to fall for that one. I guess. Eventually did win out though at the wedding. In addition to a regular ring. She also wore the making. On another story. We heard about somebody running to win love which actually kind of paralleled the run that happens at the end of Neal's favorite rom com. When Harry met Sally, when Harry met Sally the way it goes is that it's New Year's Eve, Harry's wandering around the streets of New York, and he realizes that. He loves Sally has to tell her now breaks into a run to go. Tell her very New York Centric in this one because he's like tries to catch cab. And of course, you can't. So then he disliked he's going to run the entire distance David Kessler. Bam has are real version of this story about a guy named Steve Snyder the thought that someone actually made one of these runs in real life seemed so unlikely to me that I wanted to see where it had happened retraced the steps of so I met Steve where the run began at this burger place on Ludlow street in New York City. Steve is the kind of guy who is not very good at hiding his feelings. Like, if this were movie, title, it say everything the setup to the run is this he'd met this woman, Emily at a birthday party. He was totally Smith. What I remember is. The party kind of turned into sort of a tunnel vision moment. All I really did was talk to hurt. It didn't go grave. He kept asking her you want to go to movie, maybe we could hang out some time. If there's a trajectory of my life. It's going from clingy to a little less clingy. Steve Email there after the party nothing came of it. A year passes and just like in when Harry met Sally. They meet a second time in Stephen Emily's case, it's at the very same birthday party same apartment, and they become friends. It was the kind of friendship where really it could go either way she seemed kind of interested in something more. But maybe not enough and the longer they were friends. It was like, well, maybe that's what they were. Steve had a job as a film critic say we go to movies, lots of movies where they would not hold hands and not kiss. There is a pathetic moment. So Lincoln centre station. We're waiting for the train. It's like some crazy twenty minute. Wait, where the words actually out of my mouth, you know? Hey, if you ever want a film critic as a boyfriend, you just let me know. I think we were talking about it fit into the context of the conversation somehow, but I can't think of anything more pathetic. What was her reaction? She just kind of laughed, and I was like. Yeah. Okay. Okay. The run happened on a night where they were not going to hang out. Steve, thanks. He was working on a review of some mutant ninja turtle movie. After work. He goes out with some friends to music place music so loud, and it's kind of fun. It's a great night, and we're dancing. I actually started dancing for once. We leave the place we're going to get some greasy food because we're hungry. And we haven't eaten and I my bag and everything. So we walk into the burger joint the place. We're sitting in right now. Greasy spoon tiled white walls and painted brick. It's like a piece of a subway station that somehow above ground. There's what five tables here it's tiny. And so I remember it's kind of throwing my bag down. And then I pull my phone just to check. And it's one of those weird nights. Right. Like, I just haven't checked my phone almost any night any night ninety nine percent of nights. You know, your phones right next to you. It's buzzing you hear it if you're if it rings you hear at I don't know if I'd bad reception in the place 'cause it's kind of an older building. But I looked down that I swear to God, I have like twenty two text messages, and I'm. What? And they're all from Emily. And so I run out of the burger place street got side. Okay. Rush out here. I rush out here. And there is not exactly a lot of room. I mean, there's there's not room at all. This is a crowded like this is where you hang out till four AM. So I rush out, and I I start reading through the messages, and it starts very kind of innocently very like, hey, what are you up tonight? Oh, are you? Oh, maybe you're out. I was wondering if maybe wanted to like get a drink or something and then. And then it starts escalating like, wait. Are you? Are you not texting me or why don't you texting me back usually it was pretty quick getting back to her because I was totally into her. And then it started being like started getting a little more paranoid. And then I think she started thinking I was on a date or something in just two hours. It looked like she through all these phases. Everything laid out all these texts ending with one that Steve was not expecting the last text message said, maybe we need to talk about this whole not dating thing. I I thought like this is this is it like, whatever's whatever's about to happen. This is the moment. And so I immediately called her. I'm mmediately just hit dial. I didn't quite know what it was going to say. And I think she picked up the phone set. Hello. And I just kind of started going into it. Like, I don't know what to say here like. Yes. I I want to date you and. What are we doing? Screaming in the street. The cars are moving people. Stop walking by me. They just stopped to see what's going on here because I'm screaming like, I love you. I don't know how to be clear like I love you. So I'm screaming this. And this crowd is starting to cheer me on someone does yell like say, you love them like say, you love him yelling to her through the phone and. I love you. All I remember her saying, it might have been all that. She did say was you know, like you need to stop yelling. If you wanna talk about this, you might as well just come here. And as far as I'm concerned. This is the moment like it's on like this happening. And I just start running down the street looking for Cavs Trent. Let's run. So I start running. We are now jogging up Ludlow street. It's actually kind of exciting the crowd, the crowds. Looking at me wondering what the hell am doing. And literally I'm like banging on every cab because it's that time of night where some just saying they're off duty. So I think I hit a couple I'm sort of can you take just up to the east village not that far a taxi after taxes like no someone in it. So he keeps running I didn't tell my friends where it was going. I left my laptop all these screeners that I had taken assignments to review that the movie studios told me they needed back. I ditched everything we took him at the running. Yeah. I just love involve running. That is interesting. Why did I feel like I had to run in the movies they run? But usually it's because someone's about to get married or about to get on a plane like it felt very urgent to get there. Very quick. This has been building up for years in for a moment. She was willing to consider it. And I was going to get there before she said it was too late or she was too tired. Steve told me he'd been living in the friend universe for so long. And that was like this little worm hole had opened up. He didn't know for how long you might be able to slip into the parallel universe of boyfriend. Steve did eventually get a taxi made it to replacement and he stayed over and they did become boyfriend and girlfriend in the movies. This is often the final seem the end of the movie is the beginning of the relationship. You don't really get to see how it how he gets clingy. One of the meet someone else out, just fades. But that is not this story. We got married. And now, we have two kids, and I still can't believe it's all played out the way, I know things don't always work out. But sometimes you just want to hear the ones that do. Wanted to produce show. For you had me at Hello shafter. Harry does run across New York City on New Year's Eve and reaches. Sally. He explains to her that he ran because once you realize you wanna spend the rest of your life with somebody you want the rest of your life to start as soon as possible. And he tells her all the things about her that he notices loves about her. That's the final thing you need around com. You need for somebody to declare that. They see you in ways that you are usually not seen. Maybe you don't even know yourself, and it does happen in real life. Sometimes after some obstacles, Diane move has a story like that she filed for him in an acting class. Jillian was a serious young actor bent over her desk. Taking outs when Jeffrey got up in front of class to read from a midsummer night's dream. I just remember hearing his voice I actually looking at from my notebook in just watching him do the scene. He was so so good. Any of this? Really awesome voice. It's like super low and really resonant and. He was really hot too. By the time. He sat back down. She was done. I was immediately like more attracted to him than I'd ever felt attracted to anybody before. And I didn't know how to talk to him. I just I knew that I wanted to talk to them. But I just didn't know how is like a mix between wanting to be right next to somebody and then like run away and hide Jillian was young twenty she'd had boyfriends, but nothing too serious, and they'd always liked her more than she liked to them until Jeffrey they were working together at Shakespeare theater in New York at the end, they put on production of the winter's tale unstaged, she'd sometimes get so distracted that he was there that she'd forget her lines sometimes offstage, she thought maybe Jeffrey was flirting with her. But she couldn't tell for sure. And anyway, she had a rule never sleep with a cast me. So for four months, she kept her feelings Tercel. F- cut to the night of the final cast party. Everyone's at the bar that they always go to and it's a first night. They're no longer co workers. So on her way over Jillian makes it her mission to try and kiss him that night, she talks to him a lot at the party, but keeps chickening out. Finally, she gives up and decides to go home. And so I was standing there. And I was getting ready to to hail a cat finishing at the end of the cigarette. And I felt him come up next to me. And yeah, he just it was kind of like, I remember. I'm just like brushing back hair kind of off of my cheek. And is that moment, you know, where you know, that you're actually gonna kiss like he just feel it in your two bodies and just very lightly pressed his lips against mine, and then it was like a one can actual like deeper kiss. And I know from the outside we made it look good because if very much felt like one of those like the good stage kiss. After their perfect. I kiss everything falls into place on Q. He invites her back to apartment she flicks. Her cigarette to the curb he opens the door to the cab. She glides into the backseat more kissing ensues. And I think that's probably the first time I've ever made out with anybody in the back of a cab. I think I was probably like this cab drivers here they make out all the way across Manhattan over bridge and up five flights of stairs. Somehow Jeffrey manages to unlock the door without removing his lips from jillions this impresses her very much. Everything is going so perfectly. So then I use bathroom because I've been drinking beer all night. And. I'm so nervous. I noticed that my hands are shaking in the mirror and so nervous. And it just like look myself in the eye, and I actually gave myself a pep talk like pointer fingers and dancing in the mirror and being like, this is everything you waited for. It's actually happening. It's like excitement nervous. I believe in you. Yeah. Then Jillian encounters the first obstacle in. What will turn out to be a very strange night for her and my whole heart, just sinks? I'm not actually going to be able to have sex with him. I just got my period. I realized that like making it with him in the back of the cab, and and just like my cigarettes in my leather jacket. You know, it makes me seem that goes really cool city girl. But the reality of who I am is this very nervous person who grew up very conservative like very very conservative Jillian grew up on a farm in rural Canada. This one time when she was young and got her period while wearing white pants her whole family participated in a weird game of denial everyone just pretended. Like she sat in some jam. She didn't even like to say the word period. It was something that was kind of like very hush hush and not something I was used to discussing openly Dylan, thanks. There's no way we can sleep together tonight. So she's disappointed NT stressing over how she's even going to tell him, but you can't hide in the bathroom much longer. He's waiting on the other side of the door. So I left the bathroom and. It was like I stepped out into another world is like romantic world where you actually taking a scarf and put it over a lamp. So like the lighting MRs like, orange mood lighting. He didn't have his shirt on my mind for members, and glistening, he probably wasn't actually listening. But that's how my mind remembers him. We checked her mind remembers, right? Jeffrey told me, and he said, yes, this is very embarrassing looking back. But while she was in the bathroom, he fathered on baby oil to make his muscles pop. Anyway, they start to kiss, and I remember like at first being really into it and the remembering my situation, so my mouth does that thing where it curls up a little bit. And we kind of laugh a bit. And he goes into kiss me again. I do that thing where I pulled away again. And he he was so sweet he was like, wait what's going on? You know, he noticed it. He wrote it right away. I was like we don't have to do this. I wanna be clear like nothing is expected of you in this situation. We don't we don't have to have sex. And I was like I want to I I really like honestly, I want to it's just an kept trying to think of how am I going to phrase this? I think of this thing that my roommate used to say she calls it her at flow. So I look at him. And and I tell them that my aunt. Flow has just landed. And she's very much in town. And he gets like a little bit confused. He asked me if my aunt is like just arrived at the airport, and if I have to go see her or something so Venturi, I just fed up. And I tell them like, no, I have my period, and in pretty sure I whispered it. I'm pretty sure I have my period. And he's mildest like half smiles like, so. So what do you mean? So. And he just he didn't care. He didn't care. He was older than her group with bunch of sisters, Jillian is briefly astonished considers this totally new possibility not carrying decide she's into it. And they start kissing again. And because this is a family show. I will just say that everything that happened next went really well. In fact, it was the first time this particular activity went quite so well for Jillian I felt like I finally understood what it was about. Lying there. Listening to his heartbeat. Yeah. Just like listening to his heartbeat. It's such a comforting sound. I can still hear it so distinctly and an after a while he gets up to go to the bathroom, and he kind of like flicks on that little late. She's talking about the lamp by the bed, and I I turned off that light and he flipped it on again. And then I turn it back off. We have this. Little shared moment. Laughter and he leaves and turn the light on again. And it looks like a crime scene. There is blood everywhere. This is the first time I had seen so much of my own immense, stroke fluid. I was afraid of it. I got good even found him. What he was going to think about it. Just when Jillian thinks it can't get worse. She looks up from the bed, and then I don't know how this happened. But my very own like red bloody hint print is on his whitewall. God, I just like panicked, Jillian tears the sheets off the bed and throws them aside next the handprint hinny water anything in his room. So use my own saliva to wipe. The the bloody hint the wall. Like out out damn spot. Next. She bundles up the sheets, but she has no idea what to do with them. She starts to put them in the hamper. But then realizes that he would still have to take them in wash them himself, which she cannot bear to imagine. She peeks under his bed to see if she can stash them there. But then she thinks no that's crazy. He'll still find them. Jeffrey will be out of the bathroom any minute. She's running out of options. So I stuffed them into my own backpack. We gonna take them. Oh, yeah. Well, I have to get out of there. You're not gonna get away with that though. He's gonna notice sheets gone. I know, but I wasn't thinking about that. At the time. All I can think of is that I didn't want him to have to wash the sheets, and I didn't I didn't. I didn't want him to have to clean up my mess. I guess to cover her tracks Jillian throws the comforter over the bed. So you can't see the sheets are missing strains billows and gets ready to bolt when Jeffrey comes back from the shower, she makes up a lame excuse about why she can't stay the night. Something about having to go to work early. The next morning. She could tell ho- flimsy, it sounded as she was saying it, and I just oh it breaks, my heart. But I remember him looking so hurt and so confused. I I wish that I didn't leave. I wish that I'd stayed. But she didn't different offered to help Gillian hail a cab. But she was like, no, it's fine. I'll. Take the subway. She walked to the station, totally miserable. Like that. It really hits me that I have stolen this man sheet. How do you come back from that? How do you? How are you? Not the weird girl who liked took his bedsheets. Yeah. So then I'm so inside myself, and I hear this voice being like, ma'am. Excuse me, ma'am. And I look up and in New York, they have this station outside of subway entrances with this folding table on the NYPD stands behind, and it's a it's a random beg search. No. And here Jillian does what any sensible leading lady would do when confronted by law enforcement. I pretend I don't hear them. And I try to like exit the subway station like a brisk like run walk nothing looks more suspicious than trying to avoid a random facts aren't sure yet. Oh, the officer catches up to Jillian unzips her backpack and pulls out the sheets, which are covered in blood. I remember him like in the subway has such distinct lighting like I just remember him holding up these sheets, my menstrual sheets of shame like menstrual sheets have doom, and I realized that they didn't look like menstrual sheets. Do they look like murder? She's active. He asked me to explain it. And I just are crying. I can barely get the words out of just like trying to explain to him like it's my period on those sheets, and I stole the sheets from the guy that I was with. And I know that that's wrong. I knew what the actual theft of the sheets is wrong. And I promised the officer that I would return them, but I just needed to wash them. I the police officer looks Jillian up and down asks for high D And points her to go stand in a little box taped on the floor by the wall. She watches him walk over his partner and have a very furious looking conversation the sheet, stay crumpled up on the plastic. Folding table comes back in the gives me an ultimatum. So we can go down to the precinct, and they can file a report and they've got to keep a sheets just in case. It's evidence, you know. And they're going to ask me of your questions and follow up more. I can take him back to the apartment the apartment. That I just came from and have my partner corroborate my story like an I had to think about it. Like, I honestly the honestly gave it a really solid. Good thing. There was a huge part of me. That would rather go to the police station that have to go back and show Jeffrey these not only showing these sheets, but also bring the police. But, you know, my my comment sense caught up with me like this looks like I've done something very wrong. They make the long walk to Jeffrey's apartment. Silently they get to the doorstep and buzz wait for Jeffrey to walk down five flights of stairs. When he gets there. The police officer does all the talking good evening. Do you know this woman? Jeffrey says he does that they just been hanging out then the cop reaches into gillians backpack and pulls out the sheets. Do you know what these are Geoffrey says, those are my sheets the police officer asks can you identify the substance on these sheets and? From being fascinated because without hesitant hesitating almost like in this like stronger voice. He just says menstrual fluid, which is like I call him my period and a thing of than what it actually was. So for him to look a police officer right in the eyes and just say, very confidently menstrual fluid. The sound scientific in very grownup. The cops having fulfilled their narrative purpose and successfully reunited are couple leave. And then I'm alone. Definitely I'm trying to apologize to him namely stealing sheets, but also just for just for everything for bringing the police back to his house, Jillian remember sobbing through all of this. She's mortified all of a sudden, Jeffrey stop, sir and says this thing that still hits Jillian and Asaf spot. They don't be. Looking at me like you're so strange. Wonderfully strange. Everything that you could possibly think of going wrong went wrong, and it it all still turned out. Okay. Hey, still liked me. No matter what. This is like my favorite moment in any rom com. It's a scene in ten things. I hate about you and Julia stiles reads her poem to Fletcher in front of the entire class Jack Nicholson as good as it gets telling Helen hunt. How he just can't believe she runs into strangers all day long. And they don't know that they just met the greatest woman alive. And of course, it's Mark dicey. At the bottom of the stairs telling Bridget Jones. I like you very much just as you are to me the whole point of ram calms is to set up that line. It's what we all want to hear and say to the people we love most. But real-life doesn't guarantee a plotline that pushes us to say it. Dan will show Jillian and Jeffrey data for a few months? And then they broke it off when real life new jobs her expired visas from Canada got in the way, she says she's got it ended for anything bad happen keeps the memory sweet just like a movie today. Jillian wash is a comedian Toronto version of the story for on the risk podcast. Wis? Have no. Peter stay by Neil drumming and Diane. Woo. The people put our show together. Includes Baker release Bergerson, Ben Calhoun, Dan Chavez, Sean Cole Winnie Dangerfield of even Cornfeld Stephanie food Damian. Great Kimberly Henderson, Khanna Joppy Kasim. Southland Alvin Malik. Be parker. Bent falen, Robin semi ship Christmas. Atoll tyranny and Julie Whitaker senior producer for today's show. Brian read managing editor. Susan Burton to people are leaving our show today. Emily Khandan who's help grand the show for years is often Minnesota and a new life Stephanie food who actually has one more story we're going to Erin a few weeks off to write a book. The both added so much here. We'll have great best wishes for them. Both I web site this American life dot org as American lives to live with the public radio stations by PR X, the public radio exchange spoke for this American life comes from cozy TV broadcasting the office, every weeknight Steve corral, Jennifer, and John Krinsky because db is the digital broadcast channel from NBC between a twenty four seven lineup of shows like Frazier. Combo will and grace and many more. Thanks as always progams co-founder. Mr. Trump t-, you know, he and I were reminiscing by the taxi ride we had years ago in England, Margaret Thatcher. And I think that's probably the first time I've ever made out with anybody in the back of a cab America's back next week more stories at this American. Next week in the podcast of this American life. This is a little community radio station in a small town in Syria. Don't be waiting. But in current worth. This town is run by extremists isthmus who decided that it was offensive for women's voices to be on the air. So. Guys them. Incredible and unusual inside Syria during this war seemed through this little radio station this next week on the podcast on local public radio station.
Into Comedy in a Crisis with Michelle Buteau
"It feels like it's been a while since America had any kind of holiday this one memorial day the unofficial start of summer honors the men and women who have died while serving in the US military this year. Those folks while at the very same time nearly one hundred thousand other. Americans are known to have died from covid nineteen and that number goes up every day. We know lots of people are going through hard times right now and won't be spending this holiday weekend at traditional events. I know my family sure is going to miss the annual African Dance Brooklyn so we thought maybe we could lift the mood just a little bit. Bring some relief and some laugh. Do I'm so excited. I have shoulder pads and a statement limp earrings to get it. I see that's comedian and actor and podcast and author Michelle Bhutto after working her but offer nearly two decades and comedy. She's finally getting her due. There's first wives club alongside seal Scott. She's got a netflix special coming up in a book to and she's our guest on today's episode just before Corona virus hit Michelle hosted a reality show also net flix called the circle. Welcome to the circle. A new social experiment. We're players. Don't meet face to face. They only communicate through this circle. Circles are called me some more profile. Listen THE PREMISE. Am serious year was eight people who had to stay inside their apartment and could not meet face to face? They even had the use social media and giant screens. To communicate. Sounds familiar. Right we'll get to that. I'm sure mainly and this is into America today. Show laughter and comedy during a national trauma. Is it okay to be funny? Is it even possible heads up to our listeners? You'll notice that we bleeped out some adult language Michelle Bhutto thank you so much for joining us my God of course. What else was I going to do? Laundry cleaned my kitchen for the third time and never have a cleanest bowed another thing. I should mention turns out Michelle Knight having mutual friend and actor or whenever shows. He told me about some kind of fabulous meatball party. That happens at her place. It's called swap. Meet conduct Thanksgiving but not really. Apparently I've been invited next meatball party. I don't notice meatballs happening. Apparently between I don't know what's happening. Actually that's my meatball party. I can't believe he just invited you to find me ballpark. But look it is what it is. It is one of those events I like to make events that have a pun in them but then also involve food. That is not like Thanksgiving. 'cause I feel like that is so boring thanksgiving Turkey and size and like some people. Don't even mind sweet potato. Some people call them yams is accusing so my husband and I love meatballs. We Love Food in general. We're just good old fashioned garbage cans. We've been doing it for five or six years about forty to forty five people make meatballs small ones so we can all by and over one hundred people come. It's exciting to see what people bring and it's all about the sauce for me like if you have a good gravy to dip something into then that's all that matters house you actually get in the comedy. Oh my God okay. Black James Lipton. Let's do it okay. Mantell Williams. Let's go let's go okay. Low Budget Steve Harvey. How're you doing of so sorry? This is what happens when I put on the steak and shoulder pads. I've been doing comedy for eighteen years now. I was in TV production. At first. I worked for local news stations and did some field producing and editing and I was simply behind the camera because I had a college professor. That told me I was too fat to be on camera because I wanted to be a reporter and you know this was like in the mid nineties before we had cameras and before we had hashtags and we were offended and did stuff Okay A and to his point there was no one that looks like me on TV anyway. So I was like I definitely want to be creative and have every day feel like a different day so I went into production. I did that for a really long time but I also just had this little thing inside and we were always like. I'm so tired of making everybody look so good. These people are basic. I'm basically telling them how how to have a personality on camera so you know nine eleven happened and I was like you know what screw it The world is crumbling. And I might as well do something that I've always wanted to do. Because who cares about what people think at this point and this is you know it's similar to what's happening now. A lot of my friends have finished script. Or you know. Clean their closet or Ashford divorce and so when something major like this happens. It's like okay. This is the universe just telling us that we need to do some spring cleaning. So let's talk about the circle here and so you have this show sequestered. They're quarantined they don't access to each other. So now we're all living like we're in the circle. Are You clairvoyant? The you know something? We don't know the Manati was call me now. I know I miss cleo circle. Yes this is wild crying face emoji. Send I'm still wrapping my bloated face around that one to be honest because I spent hours and hours watching footage of everybody just looking at screens talking to each other and here we are all on screen talking to each other so you know. I do keep in touch with the season cast. Because they're really wonderful people. I mean casting get a great job. Picking Real Americans that represent the diversity of America right and even social media where we're at and so we keep in touch with each other. We SEND VIDEO. See each other and like we're reliving the whole episode all over again because it's just like heart face. Emoji send so everything is Kinda come to a screeching halt but this has been a really big year for your career. Like your name is. It's growing your stature. Your projects you start in some movies you halted. Netflix'S REALITY SHOW. You have this amazing book coming out later for someone who was grind and enroll in in for this to happen. Was this kind of a needed break or was it. Kinda like did it. Throw you off kilter. I think a little bit of both you know. I think a little bit of both when it first happened. I was like okay two weeks. Okay and I think the scariest part two was like there was so much information coming in more than it was coming in so fast I couldn't process it and I live by heart island which is an island. Where a lot of Jane and John Does are buried? And it's sort of just like It's a graveyard for people that died alone and as I'm looking out my window and I see these refrigerator trucks coming in. I'm like that is so sad that they died alone but also like wow so beautiful that they ought to be buried together for eternity so it is just like multiple levels of what you know. You can't be in a business. Like stand up comedy or the entertainment business and worry about. Oh Man What's going to happen next? You just have to trust that something will happen and you just have to keep creating something because you know the world could be functioning just fine and you'd still be like that you just is so crazy like Oh. She's got that he's got that it's like who cares what everybody got focused on what you have look at your play and keep it moving. Oh my God all truth. You are the mother of twins how they are sixteen months which is like a year and a half. I'm bad at math. So is more more comedy or drama at your household. Your your wife mother to small cute. That's that's a lot. Yeah I mean it's a lot but it's also like just enough right because what would I be doing if I didn't have this beautiful family to take care of I'm really I'm really so glad. They're so cute and look like me because it'd be so much harder if they were ugly as a mom or even as any parent just taking care of whether it's a puppy finicky plant or your kid. It's like you spend so much time taking care of it. You're like when do I bond with it and how I didn't even know that was a thing so I'm having all these leg. Many revelations to is really fun for me exam like talking to my mom. I had no idea they're like yet girl. It's okay to cry when you get poop stuck in your fingernail before you had your coffee. I sat like you are not alone. So that's fun you know. I hustled hard. I've hustled hard for eighteen years. And now I get to being the Bronx brawlers with my cute kids with curly hair. And jus- cut up a bunch of Broccoli and feed them. And that's where I'm at right now. That feels like heaven more truth for Michelle Bhutto right after this. Hey It's Chris. As this week on my podcast is happening. I'll be talking with New York Times. Education reporter Dana Goldstein. About what it for country when fifty five million children home from school we started looking into this at the Times right off the bat it became clear that in some cities like Ohio like Los Angeles. There was about fifteen to twenty percent of kids that lost to schools. And what I mean by that is. It's not just that they were in signing on to these video chats with teachers or lessons and not submitting work. They were actually not in contact at all. So the teachers and the administrators sometimes social workers or bilingual support staff. That can speak that families home. Language are trying to reach out and they cannot find where these kids are. That's this week. I'm wise is happening. Search for wise is happening wherever you're listening right now and subscribe. The the rapper common famously said nobody smiling and so I wonder right now when folks are going through so much unemployment. The virus is this a time to be smiling laughing or trying to entertainment. I mean you know the big answer is yeah sure but I think the real answer. Is You have to do whatever you need to do. You have to allow yourself to feel sad and mad and You know in order to get to the place of okay. I can breathe now. I went through that. What is science and my sick. Are they sick? What does this mean will I come back? I don't have my job but I have my. It's like you just have to allow yourself to feel whatever you're feeling and so I think it's important for SNL and Wendy Williams and like pop culture shore to maintain whatever sense of normalcy. We can because people do like to check in and especially people who were by themselves. They needed more than ever. I mean people like me who are stuck home with the kids Hashtag blessed. But we don't have time to watch stuff we're just cleaning and raising and you know all the housekeeping and just trying to maintain our sanity so I think it's and then once in a while I'll see me man. Thank you so much. Ninety Day. Fiance for all those means. I check them on nominal on the toilet. Because that's my me time. Don't worry about I wash my hands after I take a and I wiped phone okay. Who IS NOT WASHING THEIR HANDS? After they take Ryan the subway. We've got into this mess. Trifling Fade to make people laugh but during these times. What's making you laugh or you finding sources of entertainment? I mean for sure. I'm conjuring good feelings in simply because I have to be strong for my parents and for my husband and for my kids and from my dog and let's be on for me but I'm realizing now that I am home how much I worked. How much I was really entertaining. Everybody all the time how much I was tap dancing in like look. I'm taking a pause for the cause like everybody else. I'm taking a rest. This is the first time I put on a like in seven weeks or months. You know I feel like I've created this beautiful plus sized body of work for people to enjoy. Let me just sit back and drink ma while you guys watch all the stuff. I've done on the Youtube one thing. That's just how absurd this moment actually really is like the take out. Food people with bags on our heads would have you noticed of the silliness of this. Obviously very serious but is there. Some silly observed nature to everything is going on. Oh Man I think I don't want to discount people's feelings but you know when science is politicized it's like what are you even talking about? These are facts boo boo. You know this doesn't Mean Lake. We're not even talking about insurance and taxes. We're talking about science drink some bleach. You know so. Is this like if a woman were to say? We should have some bleach. We like women are so stupid if a black man were to say you know what we should we'd be like black. People are not educated. It's like it makes my right. I just have a heartbeat and just like this. Can't I a young guy who's got by? Nobody's got buyer's remorse get. This is crazy. You have this book coming out. This might be my favorite book title ever survival. That biggies gay talk to me about it. She survival the thickest plus size essays in a small minor world guess honey. I wrote this because my heart was full my jeans I you know when I started podcasting. I just thought I'd be talking to people about what was going on in the world how they grew up blase Blah and then I started realizing I got a lot of stories and it's not just like the same story you keep telling at the dinner table. These are stories that sort of resonate with people from all walks of life and so I just started making a bank of. Oh I'll tell that one day are all flesh it out or I'll do it at a storytelling show and storytelling shows are wonderful magic. Because you're just telling this like very deep intimate raw story of this part of your life in a dark room then people reach out to you and they're just like Oh man. I was going through this. Thank you so much now. I feel less alone. I'm just like I feel less alone for sharing and you feel us alone for hearing and then you'd read other books and manuscripts and stuff and essays from Comedians. And you're your dislike. That is so interesting and that is so wild and and and and truth telling an in their voice but yeah man my husband truly like put me in a room and he's like we're doing everything else. How about you just focus on this? And so he really helped me find the time. So I am very excited. Isn't even the word? I'm all the things you know. I'm anxious I'm I'm hopeful. I'm excited I can't wait for people to this and be like I cannot believe. She said that she did that. I can't believe she went through that. What's it like working with Jill? Scott we saw the versus Jill Scott Erica by do and I saw someone say that just got looks like she gave the best hugs. She's glowing and warm. Ooh I'm getting chills. Just even thinking about Jill's hugs gills. Mom is a healer. And so jill has that she's got that thing. Where if you walk into the trailer and she's like and sleep well last night. You Okay and I'm like you know like the Audio Guy. Will Mike her and she'll be like you need to take some vitamin C. You gotta get sick next week. Relate what she'll just come up and like touch a part of your arm. You're like I feel better. She's like I know and like we'll just walk away. She's magic she. She's pure magic and she's so talented. I mean she's nice to everybody onset but she's also like do your job because I'm doing my job. You're mean choose business. She's she's gorgeous. She makes up songs for no reason. Like she's just a sounds very Jill Scott of her when one last question. Why does comedy matter now? Oh man comedy always matters to be honest right now. We are going through something collectively but people go through stuff every day and they need to laugh as well the biggest highest compliment you could tell a comedian after show is. I needed this at a rough day at work. My husband just left me. My Dad's died. I need to laugh. I just lost another baby. Thank you so much like you never know what people are going through. And so. That's why comedy is always important because Ryan Michelle bathe. They who plays one of my first wives friends on. I would always say her grandma would say if you're not laughing or crying if you're not crying laughing it's like well why can't we do both? Michelle Bhutto Thank you for the laugh. I think so many of us needed this. You are a bright shining star and we really really appreciate your time. Thank you so much. This is how we do it almost right so nice to meet you sort of likewise meatball party so they we go all right. You're invited here we go. Okay bye into. America is produced by Isabel Angel Alison Bailey Aaron. Don Max Jacobs. Barbara Rab cleared CY. I should Turner and Previ- Vartan original music by Hanns Braun. Our Executive Producer is ellen. Franken Steve Lake Tai is executive producer video. I'm mainly hope you had a healthy happy and safe holiday and we'll catch you on Thursday.
#1191 - Software Tester Tunes Pianos for Harmonious Hustle
"Here's a new podcast. I am excited to share with you. Produced by the team behind revisionist history go and see is a six part series focused on Lexus and the philosophy of Gin Gin Bhutto which means go and see for yourself an idea that stems from the belief that if you experience something yourself you have a better understanding of people and how to create something for them in this series. Lexus invites Gladwin to Japan to discover their unconventional thinking firsthand. Find out how a Japanese tea ceremony influence the engineering of a car window. How Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation and more follow the journey starting march fifth wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories? Like these. It all starts the day after tomorrow the day after tomorrow is the publication date up the money tree. My New Book Fiction debut where I have created a whole story and characters in the universe but I'm also teaching self reliance some of the same lessons I teach through school but in a very different format for now. Let's focus on today's story which features a money-making skill we have never before looked at. That's correct after nearly twelve hundred episodes. We haven't run out of ideas and opportunities. This is something I always get excited about it. I'm like Oh we have never talked about this before and this one. This skill idea opportunity is all about piano-tuning piano tuning in a story a software tester cereal side Hustler. Learns this new skill and turns a profit from it in just over a week. I love that time line. You know a few days ago in the classroom episode. We called it side-hustle Sprint and I was like. What would you do if you had to get started in two weeks or so? Well this guy is setting an example. So story is called Software Tester Tunes Pianos for Harmonious Hustle and that story is coming right up announcing a live virtual event. That's right I couldn't go on book tour at least not yet so I'm going digital on Saturday April fourth. I'm hosting a live virtual event to introduce my new book the Money Tree finding a fortune in your own backyard during this event. I'll be teaching sharing answering questions for two hours. This is in partnership with my friend. Chase Jarvis and the creative live team so chase. We'll be there as well and maybe even some special guests you can register for free and you'll also be able to watch it afterwards. Check IT OUT. Just go to school dot com slash virtual. That is once again. Side-hustle school dot com slash virtual. Your non working hours are precious and should be spent relaxing perfect bed. But which is the best well mattress firm did the research right now. During the semi-annual sale you can save up to four hundred dollars on top rated brands. Plus you'll get a free adjustable base when you spend six ninety nine or more so you can enjoy the sleep. You deserve without doing any of the hard work so go on. Kick your feet up and save big when you shop now Software Tester Josh. Kemp has always been adept at using his hands. Although his day job involves working at a computer he enjoys learning more physical skills on the side in particular. He likes traits at the intersection of art and science which has led him to study topics ranging from shoeing horses to installing water fountains. These skills also allowed him to generate several income sources apart from his paycheck. When Josh Got Free Piano off craigslist he decided he would restore it as best as he could but after messaging several piano tuner is in the area. He only received one reply an offer to the job for one hundred and thirty five dollars worth that piano. Tuner failed to show up on the day of the appointment and never responded to any of Josh emails. That's right he was hosted by piano. Tuner Josh was upset at first but the whole incident and got him thinking. How much work do piano tuners have if they treat customers this way and if there was so much work out there? How hard would it be to learn to tuna piano himself? You might be able to clink out a harmonious new source of income. The first thing he did was reach out to a few known piano tuner and other states and he used e mail addresses he found online to ask what they thought about someone breaking into the field then. He used his wife's phoned which had a different area code to ring up those in the local neighborhood to gather feedback. Some thought that pianos were going away at this gig would soon disappear but the majority believed that there would still be work for years to come armed with this information. Josh jumped into developing the skills he needed wanting to get trained quickly. He looked online for a course he could purchase he stumbled upon an instructor with a seemingly modern platform and he paid the seven hundred and fifty dollar cost all. It wasn't a small amount the market research. He did told him he'd be able to recoup the cost soon enough and besides he loved learning new skills. You only problem was the course taught piano tuning like it was nine hundred ninety six and had instructions specifying the use of tuning fork without the use of any modern APPS or equipment in his words. It was almost useless and he had to turn to watching videos to get the real knowledge that he needed based on the recommendations from those piano. Tuner is on Youtube. Josh bought a tuning APP for three hundred dollars. This worked far better than what the online courses taught him and now he was ready to play the Diet. Tonic scale or perhaps scale up. The online course had taught him to run Google ads but josh found that one hundred dollars of that failed to net him a single piano in need of tuning the piano. Tuners he'd spoken to had zero experience with digital marketing. This may Josh decide not to pay for any more marketing but instead to rely on free organic posts to spread the word and it worked his pre piano tuning ads on platforms such as facebook marketplace and next door got the attention he needed and at a price of eighty dollars. Josh GOT HIS FIRST CUSTOMER. He then experimented with his prices raising them to ninety dollars and finally to one hundred dollars as he realized that was the optimal price for his service in researching his competitors. He saw that a lot of piano. Tuners had websites that look like they also belonged in one thousand nine hundred six or at least nineteen ninety-six and they had almost no online reviews. Josh decided he would plead with everyone. He worked with to leave him. Google review even walking through the entire process with them in some cases. He offered them a five dollar or ten dollar discount. Within three months he showed up on the first page of Google for piano. Tuner is in the area and started receiving calls from this ranking. The results. Were far better than anything he ever got from that online course but it turns out the disappointing course had a silver lining. It wasn't completely different. You might say Josh's experience led him to develop his own piano tuning course with lessons drawn from his journey. Having picked up a trade on June twenty eighth and then having made his first sale on July Fifth Josh knows that bias for action and practical experience goes far to be precise it. Spans seven octaves. So what can we take away from this story piano tuning our first time to feature this trade in almost twelve hundred episodes? I think about this concept of becoming a detective that I wrote about in the book. Do your research and see what competitors are doing in this case. I like this tactic of Josh using his wife's phone with a different area code to call around locally so that other tuners realize he was in the area which is pretty clever sneaky. You might say but clever. Also those local Google reviews are important for a service business. You should do everything you can to get customers to leave them for you. Google really prioritises local businesses. That have these reviews. So that's why it's so critical. And then lastly in most major cities you can often find free pianos. That people just moved out of their homes like they're happy to give it away if you can take it away. They may not be amazing pianos. But they're free. I wonder what kind of opportunities there could be in this surplus of large musical instruments. So think about that. Maybe somebody out there has an idea. Oh and one more thing. Why are pianos so hard to open? The answer is because the keys are inside. What can I say we do enjoy good pun from time to time. Here on the PODCAST. If it's not broke don't fix it. All right. Inspiration is good but inspiration with action is better. Today's show notes are school dot com slash Levin ninety-one. My name is Kris Kello. This is side Hustle School From the onward project.
#1188 - TBT: Southern Transplant Creates Watercolor Brand
"Here's a new podcast. I am excited to share with you. Produced by the team behind revisionist history go and see is a six part series focused on Lexus and the philosophy of Gin Gin Bhutto which means go and see for yourself an idea that stems from the belief that if you experience something yourself you have a better understanding of people and how to create something for them in this series. Lexus invites glad well to Japan to discover their unconventional thinking firsthand. Find out how a Japanese tea ceremony influence the engineering of a car window. How Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation and more follow the journey starting march fifth wherever you like to listen visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories? Like these. What's up friends listeners community. Hope you're doing well my name. Is Chris Gil Vo your host of Saddam School? I'm also the author of the book. The money tree which comes out in five days all right another news. This is throwback Thursday slash. Where are they now where we take an in depth? Look at someone who story has evolved considerably since we first feature them so far these segments. We've had a bridesmaid for higher. Who Ends up licensing her idea and writing a book. A jazz musician with a blog earns multiple six figures and more today in our latest feature. We'll hear from a South Carolina transplant. Who creates a watercolor stationary brand? That is now sold. Online and in many retailers are name is renee and it's been over a year since feature practice actually pin more than two years. Wow Time flies. What has happened since let's hear directly from her and I'll be back at the end to wrap Issad announcing a live virtual event. That's right I couldn't go on book tour at least not yet so I'm going digital on Saturday April fourth. I'm hosting a live virtual event to introduce my new book the Money Tree. Finding the fortune in your own backyard during this event. I'll be teaching sharing answering questions for two hours. This is in partnership with my friend. Chase Jarvis and the creative team so chase. We'll be there as well and maybe even special guests you can register for free and you'll also be able to watch it afterwards. Check IT OUT. Just go to school dot com slash virtual. That is once again. Side-hustle school dot com slash virtual. Your non working hours are precious and should be spent relaxing on the perfect bed. But which is the best well mattress firm did the research and right now? During the semi-annual sale you can save up to four hundred dollars on top rated brands. Plus you'll get a free adjustable base when you spend six thousand nine or more so you can enjoy the sleep. You deserve without doing any of the hard work so go on. Kick your feet up and say big when you shop now. Hi everybody. My name is renee cut solar and I am out of Charleston South Carolina and my side. Hustle is Island House Co and my previous episode. Number was four seven three. I really kind of got started with my side. Hustle as just a hobby My husband and I moved to Charleston Three years ago and We didn't really have a lot of family or friends down here so it was just kind of something to do in my spare time. And he's really the one that pushed me to create it Into more than a hobby and so I created an FC Schoff did a lot of local markets in. It's it's just kind of taken off from there. This is actually now my main hustle so since the last time that we spoke I've increased my sales. Montemar on my retailer list has tripled in size and undoing this full-time so before that I was working for a technology company in the U. X. World of of software development. But I've since left and has been doing this fulltime for six months now. I have a retail space. Now which is not really something that was ever on my road. Map or or my plan but So that's that's kind of new development in that's going on very well and I'm kind of in the phase now where I'm still expanding but I'm looking at more strategic things to do so. I'm trying to find somebody that could help me out. Part time with kind of some more of the mundane tasks of packing orders. And keeping up with email Also looking into fulfillment centers because one of things. I've realized that taking most of my time is really just packing orders and getting orders out when when in all reality. My time is spent in creating products. So it's really been a year of growing strategically and trying to understand. You know what my next steps should be in terms of like sales for my business. I I can't remember exactly when I did the the first episode but I feel like I said that I was making maybe a grand a month and that has gone up exponentially so I would. I'll I'll just say this that. In December in November of this past year I I was doing ten thousand a month. So so it's it's definitely gone up in. It's all kind of moving in the right direction. This might sound cliche but it is really put yourself out there and put your work out there like that was one of the things that I had a really hard time with and struggled with and I kind of just like kept to myself and didn't want to post anything on instagram. Unless it was like perfect and it really is just you know. Start putting yourself out there and putting your workout there along with actually doing the work Buffs behind the scenes. I've realized that it's super beneficial to actually go to conferences or go to different meet ups in your city. It's definitely one of those things that like you kinda cringe like you don't WanNa do it but once you're there at least for me I it's it's. I'm so glad that I did it. I guess the one thing that I would share is that along with you. Know doing the the connection making and collaborating with other people in your community and branching out to you know other avenues. Social media is has been huge for me and I know that a lot of people say that you know they're not good at Social Media. They don't quite understand it. There are plenty of lake tutorials and with classes that you could even take online just to get like a refresher course or any more knowledge than what you already have on social media and how powerful it can be. I will say that you know if the time when I started this three years ago. I had this list of retailers that I wanted to reach out to and now retailers are reaching out to me on instagram because of you know the type of content that I'm putting out there and it all kind of goes back to just really understanding social media and how you're talking to your to your consumers and your clients so that would probably just be the other little nugget. I would say that has helped my business tremendously. And it's it's all about being consistent to and having a consistent look and feel to to whatever you're doing so the the consumer is not confused as to what you are trying to sell them all right. Thank you so much name. Here's my favorite part of that update when she was talking about how she now has a retail space which was not something that was ever on her roadmap or her plant show also mentioned that when she started three years ago. She had a list of retailers. She wanted to reach out to and now some of those retailers are reaching out to her because of the content. She's putting out so well done first of all and I was talking this week recently. With bobby rebel host of the financial grownup. Podcast actually did an interview with her. That's coming out next week kind of about this subject about how practice makes progress. You hear that phrase practice makes perfect. It doesn't actually always make perfect. Practice makes progress and what seems inaccessible at first ends up becoming a reality. But you have to take those first steps. So in this story Rene didn't expect to have a retail space at first. She was kind of intimidated to reach out to retailers. Now she's got a retail space of her own and some of those retailers are reaching out to her practice makes progress. Be Sure you're practicing. Be Sure you're doing something for yourself. I am grateful for helping us with this segment. We're GONNA keep doing them throughout twenty twenty. Let me know what you think. And you'd like to see featured. This is our year of interaction. We've got a question. You'd like to update us about your side-hustle just come to satisfy school dot com slash questions. Today's show notes are it's honestly school dot com slash eleven eighty eight one one eight eight. Thank you so much listeners. Have a wonderful morning afternoon or evening. Whatever the case may be my name. Is Chris Gilo? This is side Hustle School From the onward projects.
Refreshing a Brand and Person with NI's CMO Carla Pieyro Sublett
"Do you. Start thinking about all the marketing. You should be doing to grow your business and just wonder. How am I gonNA, get the all this. Good News. You don't have to recruit employ and manage inexpensive team for less than the cost of one F.. T. You get an entire team of marketing specialists led by experience marketing director. Who meets with you each week to get work done? It's an outsource marketing department subscription from RSM. RSM is headquartered in Kansas, have the work ethic value, expertise and business model that just makes sense for you today. Visit Outsource Marketing Team Dot com slash today. Get up to five thousand dollars free marketing services when you subscribe, ask about their new outsource sales department to that's outsource marketing team dot com slash today. Check it out. For All of us. It's about predictive where the consumer is going and getting cap of. One of the things we want to do is create ads that don't suck. Then bracing chains creates great possibility. I'm at heart and this is marketing today. Today on the show of got Carla, Pineyro sublet. She's the CMO of Energi on the show today we talk a little bit about her background with started at Dell than became the CMO rack space head of their exit and the car current job now, but we also talk about a year that she took off a finding moon to and I apologize for mispronouncing. Mispronouncing during the recordings, but fascinating conversation about renewal, both within our own selves, and how to bring our work, selves our personal lives together, and how that's influenced her approach to marketing as well as her sales background as well in per making sure that we're providing Bali to customers at prospects I. Hope you enjoy this conversation with Carla in Gyro sublet. Carlo welcome to the show. Such I'm super happy to be here. Thanks for asking me I would love to start off by hearing about your year of finding Bhutto Bhutto. I can't even say grows like nuts. Yeah. Tell me about the and what sparked it because it sounds fantastic, well aside, midlife crisis, which I do think was was certainly part of it. I was at racks face, and we actually sold the company, which was the end in mind when I started there, and had my first successful exit was had just vested, so there were a few things that culminated end came together before I made the decision and I would say they're either going on so. So I've been at rack space for two years, and we had just sold the company and had my first exit, and really had opportunity to reflect on what I wanted next whether to stay on at rocks, face, or try something new or completely different in addition to that I was midway through my fellowship. A Henry Crown Fellowship with the Aspen Institute and that was really causing quite a bit of self reflection as well, but I think the last. Last and probably most important thing about Allen was that I was coming off two and a half years of the hardest time in my career, and I felt disconnected from the people and things that mattered most my life, including my children and my husband, and made a very conscious decision to take a full year off to really reconnect with them myself and really explore what was next, so we decided to abandoned by says we knew it and travel. Travel the world and reconnect with other cultures sounds amazing Ma'am I hope it was refreshing for you. Know you, you blog about it as well right. You created a a website for your your travels. Yes, so we kicked off a website called finding boon to and funny enough allen reason recreated. It is because we did it device free, and we wanted to have a mechanism by which to tell our friends and family that we are live in okay. So I did carry a notebook computer with me. And then the kids journaled. We all journaled on paper, and then whenever I would find Wi. Wifi spot, I would upload journals to the blog. And so it was really our way of telling everybody. We were fine, but had no idea that we were getting the readership that we did and that so many people would enjoy it to your point you. You came off one of one of the most exciting, probably stressful all packed in one exit in experience at space. How has held that year off and reconnection with family? How did that change you but time I had to figure out who? Who I was without work of work since I was thirteen years old, so in work was very much core to my identity. People would ask me how I was not answer depending on how the quarter was going so and not how personally doing I also found that I'd become extremely disconnected from my heart, and I was pretty much functioning for my brain gut, only and I I think the last part Allen is that I had really developed to you personas, a work persona, n., a home persona, and they were very different and more than anything else. Those two personas merged into who I actually am over the course of that year. I mean that is such. I've got chills actually as you. Because I think lots of people have experienced what you just described the splitting of yourself and kind of losing your own identity and your identity of work, and you are or can not to make too much of it at this current moment was so many people unemployed right now because of the pandemic I imagine there's a lot of people feeling lost to a large extent. Thank you for sharing. Thank you very welcome. Welcome appreciate it. We'll. Let's talk a little bit about your work. Life at feels very awkward transition, but let's talk about work life. We did RE connector I guess realized that we overlapped slightly at Dell although I was very short in my internship there, but you were there for fifteen years, and then joined wreck space. So, what do you feel like along? Your journey? Prepared you to be a CMO. First of all I'm grateful to my time at. Dell grew up there. And I literally have family I've got children from Dell. So that experience really formed me both as a person in as a professional what I got from Dell and my time, there was a massive education and I was fortunate enough that Del really encouraged Brett for people to try on different hats, different functions different geographies different. And my time there I had the great fortune getting to work in almost every major geography across the entire sales organization, every vertical I grip predominantly in sales ten years of my fifteen years, Adele were and sales, and then I moved over to marketing, and I will say I carry so much that experience with me today. Learn so much while I was there. Yeah, you were there at a very formative time I, believe just from the folks. I know that we're. They're very exciting. You through the to the early ninety, ninety nine to two thousand plus range of just I can. Can only imagine like rocket ship growth, and most the people that I've talked to or stay in touch with. They describe it exactly like like you. Did you feel like there was anything about the culture in particular that stood out to you like why there was so much of this like familial feel to environment in the relationships curious well I, think for starters. We were all growing up together. You can't spend fifteen years of your with a group of people and not shepherd each other through some pretty significant milestones, but I mean people are getting married divorced having children, but. But the other part of that was we are also over a course of fifteen years. We saw times of great success and we saw crisis. There were two significant recessions during that period and in crisis. There's bonding and I think the other thing is that it really taught us to problem solve. You couldn't be successful at Dell unless you are a massive problem solver and I. think that's something that I really took away from it as well. That's great, so went from Dell a believed to rex base. helped rack space exit. It sounds like and then took the year. Year off or your plus a little bit off, and now you are CMO at national instruments or I I believe as we talk about this in a few minutes, but I believe I've got this right. You're the first chief marketing officer at national instruments, or is that right? That's true. That's true, and interestingly enough on. That's pattern for me. Almost every job I've had in my career with the exception of a couple have never existed before, so yeah, it's true I'm the first official chief marketing officer deny. What was the company looking to do or create this rule to achieve? We're I was recruited to the company. The task at hand was that they really wanted to refresh and modernize the brand, and they wanted to ignite growth, however when I arrived I realized, there was a much larger opportunity before us and I realize that well in order to modernize this brand. We actually have to modernize the company. Otherwise we won't be able to deliver on the brand promise. There are a lot of things that the company was doing that were pretty dated in approach everything to how we issued people's first paychecks on paper to how we delivered software our customers, but as we went through the brand work in the research. What were? Tests, which probably the largest opportunity of all was. Our category was long-due modernization, and that was probably the most exciting piece of the work. Suits talk a little bit about the relaunch and the rebrand. And tell me about that, and then we'll go into like the other changes. You don't Mind Dad, of course. So, what do you want to know about the relaunched and rebranded? It looks like you're going from on the surface national instruments to deny year modernizing the look and feel assuming we'll get to in a minute relates to the organization structure as well. What is your primary objective? If you will like, is it to refresh your cells in the customers is is. Is it also to refresh yourself in your own is yeah. That's interesting. It's a little bit of both what I will say on first, and foremost is coming to one other things that struck me was how cool work of our customers is and the impact that they're making in the way that we live in work and that we really have very little appreciation in our society for the impact of the engineer, so I was watching Chefs Table One night and I love. Love Chefs Table, and even not a very good cook for meeting. What's so amazing about? It is the story and what some of these chefs have overcome to realize their dreams, and it becomes less about the food, even though the food is spectacular and more about the story, and it really got me thinking that there is nothing like fat for engineers, and they're solving some of the biggest problems that we face on the planet, so we are really setting out to elevate. Elevate the role of Engineering Society and tell their stories so that people really understand the impact that they're making in their lives, and the goal is to really inspire our customers to engineer ambitiously inspire them to continue to do great work, and then also to inspire employees to work hard on their behalf, because of what they're enabling touch, you Gotcha, and maybe it would be helpful because I realize we didn't. I didn't ask this question. It tell us a little bit what? Does as well to put it in context. Yes, so we are in a category called test and measurement, and most people don't realize, but just about anything with mechanical outcome. The car you drive airplanes we used to fly on the phone. You use has to be tested and measured before it's in production, and before it's out in the world, and our software and hardware enables that. I mean thousands of different tests to you imagine so it's it's a very complicated. Area you're trying to tell the stories of the engineer around to so absolutely it sounds like you know like you said before modernizing not only the brand, but the organization curious kind of changes. You're making to the marketing organization as well as maybe more broadly. How you're thinking about running business that said maybe I'll think about how we're thinking about running it because that informs what we're doing organizationally in terms of what we're trying to achieve, so I have had a somewhat midterm to long term held belief that feed be business business tech marketing is dead and that it's extremely. Extremely noisy and everybody's running the same plays, and since the advent of more tech, we've basically just peppered an abused. Our insights peppered. Our customers abused our insights, and I feel like at our core. We forgotten what our job is. Marketers, which is to add value to the customer into create a relationship with the customer and I also felt for a long time that there shouldn't be business to business or B. TO B. Marketing and consumer marketing, because we're all people in the end, so one of the things that we're setting out to disrupt BB marketing in the tech space. Space and to take a more consumer like approach in our marketing and really think about our customers, not justice test engineers, not just as decision makers, but as people and really meet them where they are able sense that makes perfect sense and I don't know it sounds like I've talked to a few other CMO's as well the started backgrounds in sales and this notion of delivering customer value actually is not something that's come up and I'm curious if you feel like you're sales, routes helps to keep you grounded if you will to the to the value that you're creating. Creating the customers, or if you think about that at all, my Gosh, absolutely and I always joke that a sales GM and marketers clothing, because at the end of the day I am trying to make an impact on the business moving the market in service of growth, and I'm always thinking about. How can we make this real? How can make this real for our sellers? How can we make it real for the customer? How can we make sure that we're not just doing activity for activity? Sake, but we're actually contributing value, not just to our customers, but to the business. It's refreshing to hear you say that because it's I think as marketers in a count myself in this crowd to we can get caught up in the stack. The tech stacks that we build the click streams if you will of of nurturing our customers or or berating them with emails, whichever way you look at it, so it's it's. It's good to get it back to human connection if you will exactly which was. was informed by mayor off away. Yeah, yeah, no, exactly exactly exactly I wonder. Do you think without that year off? You've approached it this way, or is this something that you've you've been doing even before before the time off the reconnect maybe I was starting to move in this direction, Allen. If I'm being really honest, but I will say definitely turned it up on steroids and its influence, all aspects of how I. I work. You mentioned organizational changes so in terms of how I build my team, and how we we elevate people within the organization and higher from the outside I have this new lens which is I want everybody that's in leadership, or in a certain position to be a gift to the organization and every decision that we make around people. I want people to benefit from it not just professionally, but personally so i. I think my year off made me a more heart, lead leader, and that has definitely influenced my approach the above the mean you're driving a ton of change, not just externally in the market, but it sounds like internally inside the organization as well. That's never easy. Tell me a little bit more about how you're approaching getting the humans if you will inside the building on our board with all this change that's going. Well, I've always been a big instigator of change a big change leader. I have not always been great at it. I move at a very fast pace, and probably my largest opportunity is making sure that I'm bringing everybody along with me, but I will say for the folks that an I been blown away at how quickly pivoted and I think that the most important thing to consider is having clarity of vision and really helping people understand. We're headed what it looks like on the other side, what the benefits of that are and I gotta give it to my team at an I, and in even outside of the marketing organization I feel like other functions are rooting for us, and that this has become not just a marketing effort, but this has become an. An NIH effort and that has been super inspiring to me. That's awesome anything else. You WanNA share about the rebrand the relaunch. If you will or the stories that you are about to put into market, anything else you ensure. Yes, so I will say one of the things I'm super excited about is like I mentioned before where the role of engineer in society, we also have a very strong point of view that our industry needs more diversity, and in order to stop solve some of the world's greatest problems. You need people from different backgrounds that have different perspectives to solve them always joke that the mammogram must have been invented by man. With different perspectives, so we have a very strong point of view that the profile face of engineer needs to evolve to be more inclusive of people from different backgrounds and with everything that's happening in our world right now and the amount of racial injustice in the African American community. We also strongly believe that this is one way to begin to solve for social inequity. That's fantastic. Yeah, it's definitely front and center now for sure it's always been an issue and it sounds like you have A. A lot of passionate about diversity, but also socioeconomic disparity or gaps at will. Where does that passion come from well a couple of things? I am an immigrant I'm the daughter of immigrants so I feel like I. Want a lottery ticket being in this country and I feel like a one a lottery ticket to be CMO Vinai and being able to do the work I do every day with the people that I work with every day and Allen always felt that that comes with A. A big responsibility to pay it forward, and then I also had the really good fortunate, growing up in a very diverse neighborhood, and going to a very diverse high school, and that really influenced my worldview, and over time through my nonprofit work and working the community I've realized all of the stem challenges. That are driving these social equities, and as I get older, it becomes less about just my professional work and more about what impact we can make in the world, and in fact, one of. Of, the reasons I came to an is I saw an opportunity I saw platform for doing good. That was one of my requirements that I came up with during my year off, so it's just something that's very important to me. It's value of mine and I feel super lucky to have an is a platform to do good. It's awesome and one of the things I was reading about you. Guys is some recent impact investing that the company is doing in your local community to. Afford housing so putting your resources your capital to actually help others love if you could tell me more about that, too. Listeners about impact, investing is not something that we've covered a lot on the show, but I think people especially with what's going on in the world right now. It would be great here from from you guys what you're doing. Yeah, so speaking of modernizing company philanthropy as we know, it is being. Being modernized and and through my work with our local community foundation we sauce an up some opportunities to join efforts with them and do some social impact investing as you mentioned, we just did a five hundred thousand dollar social impact investment so a low cost loan for habitat for humanity for affordable housing here Austin. We've also put aside seven million dollars to do a mixture of social impact investing in grants and. and. Then we take one percent of our profits locally to invest in the communities in which we we operate, so this is something that's very important to us and one of those pillars of social inequity. We're also very passionate as I mentioned before seeing more diversity in engineering in the stem fields, so that is that is a pillar as well and then we'll also be taking on the environment as another one of. Of our pillars, yeah, I, mean most people don't don't realize that you talk about the five hundred thousand dollars in the local with the habitat for humanity than the seven million overall, but the the fact that impact investing that money gets to be recycled, and over and over. It's not just once done which I love. Sorry I didn't do a very good job of explaining that, but you're exactly right. That's the. The beauty of it. It's not a one time grant, so that money comes back and then you. Do you do it again and you do it again, so you get significant scale out of it. No, it's awesome. Is that something that you touched on the Henry? Crown Fellowship with the Aspen Institute is something you came across their or curious. If there's a dovetail here that I didn't I didn't pick up. Up on before they're in detail for all the social impact investing really details into my work with our local community foundation, the CEO, the Austin Community Foundation Might Nilis's just a real innovator in I've learned a ton getting to work with him but aspen what my Henry Crown. Fellowship has really taught me. Is that really work in the work that we do is one of our greatest platforms to do good and. And it's really inspired me to make sure that I'm leaving the world a better place, and that I really think about the impact that our work has on world. A switch gears a little bit. If you're okay with this, I feel like I've already gotten to know you, but I do like to get to know people even more I on the other side of the microphone and really at like asking this. This question and I realize you may have already hit on the answer, but maybe not. We'll see so if it's a repeat. That's fine, but the question I love to ask. Is there been inexperience of your pass that defines in makes up who you are today. Paris so many bet I would say I i. Put myself through architecture, school, running restaurants and bars, so I was learning design thinking in problem solving. Learning cash flow and people management, so those two things really informed who I am in my work, and then I think semel tenuously putting yourself their school. It's not easy, and I think that really formed my work ethic and affected who I am as a person in the fact that I don't take anything for granted, and also the fact that I'm somewhat fearless. My work because I always figure even if I get fired I can always make a good drink in ten bar. That's awesome. I have a similar similar trade. I used to clean pools. To make money and I can always pick up a net and Skim Bulls again. You can always fall back on that solid work exactly exactly. Will I have to ask because you're in the bar and restaurant industry? What's your to drink so right now? I'm a big fan of the ranch water, which is a very complex at all, but I do love to Kiel out. Out Took Pacheco, fresh lime and set. Nobody's have not had that before a month. Bake Bake one of those will. What advice would you give your younger self if you're starting all over again to not worry and not be afraid that even during the toughest times that everything's GonNa work out, and that will far exceed Cedar your wildest dreams so not to be afraid. To similar to drink question I added this question recently to everyone that comes on the show, and it seems little silly on the surface, but I'm fascinated every time, but answers curious if there's been impactful purchase of one hundred dollars or less in the last six or twelve months. Besides upgrading bandwidth on my wife. I. Would say a pair of running shoes I'm really into fitness, and really into wellness and I do believe that it's important to take care of your mind, body and soul now more than ever before so yeah pair running shoes have been my savior right now. It, will you? Most marketers tend to be kind of students of what's going on around them and a curious. If there's brands or companies or causes that you following, you think other people should be taking notice of. Brought I definitely think what's happening in this country right now. In terms of the racial inequity in the racism against the black community, it's time for us to all stand up and advocates for the black community takes period. It's urgent and that's something that I feel very very strongly about and then I think the other thing that I. I would watch closely is what's happening in our world. Everything is being turned upside down right now, and you're starting to realize what people are made of what. What companies brands are made of and I think the leaders of tomorrow will emerge in the coming months in year and so I. Think it's it's something to to really pay attention to I do see the feature with quite a bit of optimism Alan, because I'm understood natural optimists so i. think all the things that haven't been working for us as a society globally or are breaking, so with that comes the opportunity to to reinvent and rethink that things that have not been serving us. No I think you're absolutely right. I mean many of the deeper thinkers or academic said I've had on the on the show or even follow in my in my outside life, this notion of where we are right now with many elements of society. Frankly breaking down radio's top about it, you know one of the largest hedge fund people in the world, but the income inequality is one of the biggest things we've gotta fight, and it could end very badly, or there's this opportunity for us to do something about it and as marketers you know we live. Live in die by that whether you're on the consumer side or on the business side people being able to afford and continue to put money in cash flow back into the economy's the help us all grow and get better and make more money. It's all interconnected so I wholeheartedly agree with you I'm excited what you've talked about today. In is doing to help both highlight diverse engineers and their stories, and also the impact investing that you're doing both at the local level as well as beyond that so I thank you for your efforts. I appreciate it well. You know I the company in our board and our our CEO they've been very bold. For sure will last question for you. What do you feel like is either the largest. Or biggest threat for marketers. Okay so I'M GONNA. Go back to what I was saying earlier, so everybody's going digital. Everybody's going digital right now. It's getting super noisy and it will continue to be so I think we need to rethink how we reach our customers in a way. That's meaningful to the. Contributes value to them so I think when everybody makes the same shift, it presents an opportunity disaster and go in a different direction in order to break through A. Very Astute Yes and I think there's a lot of not to pylon, but I will for just a second, but I. think There's a lot in the ethos of what's going on around. How digital's being used as well to track individuals that you don't want to be on the wrong side of that right? You WanNa to make sure that you are to your point earlier. Providing real value in how you're, you're talking in reaching and communicating with your customers and prospects, so that's a great one I appreciate it. We'll thank you so much for coming on the show. I really enjoyed the conversation. This is Super Fun for me. Thank you so much for the time in for inviting me. I-IT's again. Marketing today was created and produced by me. If you're new to marketing today, please feel free to write us a review on Itunes or your favorite listening platform. Don't forget to subscribe. Tell your friends and colleagues about the show I love to hear from listeners, and you can contact me at marketing today PODCASTS DOT com. They're also find complete. Show notes links to anything. We talk about on any episode. You can also search our archives. Alan Heart than this is marketing.
The Lust Killer Pt 1: Jerry Brudos
"This episode is brought to you by the completely reimagined twenty twenty four to escape with Ford co-pilot three sixty a suite of advanced standard driver assist technologies. It's built to help you outsmart some of the obstacles. You'll encounter out on the road. They're smart and then they're street-smart the completely reimagined twenty twenty Ford escape due to the graphic nature of this killer's crimes listener. Discretion is advised this episode includes discussions of murder and assault that some people may find offensive. We advise extreme caution for children under thirteen. It was a cold and rainy. January night in nineteen sixty eight in aloha Oregon a suburb just outside of Portland. Linda's Lawson a pretty nineteen year. Old Woman made her way up. A dimly lit street weighed down by the heavy carrying case in her hand. She had come to a low of from Rochester Minnesota looking for sunshine and an easy west coast lifestyle instead. She found endless days of gloomy weather and a dead end job. Selling Encyclopedias exasperated. Linda paused under a streetlamp and reached into her purse looking for the slip of paper bearing the address of a potential customer then. A drop of rain smeared. The ink was at fifteen forty one or fourteen fifty one. All of the houses on the tidy suburban St looked the same just as she was about to give up and head home. Linda spotted a man. He was tall and broad standing in a yard. A few houses down. He waved unlikely that it was her intended customer. But Linda didn't care she wanted out of the rain. Demand invited Linda inside and let her down to a basement workshop. His wife and children were upstairs. He explained they could be quite noisy and he wanted to chat somewhere quiet where they wouldn't be disturbed Linda hesitated. The man was big but looked harmless. Andy seemed intent on buying a set of encyclopedias. Money was tight one sale could cover her rent and in any event. The man's family was just within shouting distance. Linda descended the creaky basement stairs behind him. Never to emerge again at least not in one piece. Hi I'm Greg pulsing. This is serial killers a podcast original every Monday. We dive into the minds and madness of serial killers today. Were digging into the story of Jerry. Bhutto's a murderer sadist and fetishists who's horrific crimes shocked a peaceful corner of the Pacific Northwest. I'm here with my co host Vanessa. Richardson Hi everyone. You can find episodes of serial killers and all other podcast originals for free on spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts to stream. Serial killers for free on spotify. Just open the APP and type serial killers in the search bar at podcast burke grateful for you our listeners. You allow us to do it. We love let us know how we're doing reach out on facebook and Instagram. At podcast and twitter at podcast network. And if you enjoy today's episode the best way to help us to leave a five star review. Wherever you're listening it really does help. Jerry Broncos also called the shoe fetish slayer killed at least four women in the state of Oregon between nineteen sixty eight and nineteen sixty nine. He's best known for wearing his victims high heels and undergarments after doing away with their bodies. This week will cover Bruce's early life. His progression from petty thief to Sexual Sadist and his first kill next week we'll delve into his other murders and the trail of evidence that eventually placed grotto's behind bars for the rest of his life. Jerry Brutus was born Jerome Henry Brutus in Webster South Dakota in nineteen thirty nine. The Great Depression had decimated the labor market of rural sparsely industrialized. Places like webster in a desperate search for Opportunity Brutus. His Father Henry moved his wife and two sons to the Willamette Valley region of Oregon the industrial heart of the state. This was an unstable time for the brutalises though the depression had officially ended jobs remained scarce as Henry brutal sought work. The family bounced from town to town throughout the valley. Henry Bruce often worked two or more jobs to keep his family float. This meant leaving his two boys. Almost exclusively in the care of his wife who was purported to have had quite a temper. Eileen Bhutto's favored her eldest son Larry to her youngest jerry. Already having a perfect son Larry. Eileen had desperately wanted a little girl because Jerry was born a boy she resented him for it. He grew up hated by his mother for something entirely beyond his control. Vanessa's going to take over on the psychology here and throughout the episode please note. Vanessa is not a licensed psychologist or psychiatrist. But she has done a lot of research for this show according to criminologist Scott. Bon serial killers are sometimes compelled to commit murder by a deep fear of rejection. This often springs from the relationship most central to their life from a young age their relationship with their mother someone who experiences maternal rejection as a child may grow into an adult who actively seeks to destroy those that remind him of his mother effectively eliminating such women before they have the opportunity to dismiss him. But Jerry Brutus. His relationship with his mother is only part of far more complex portrait of a future. Serial killer at the core of brucellosis drive to kill was an early fascination with women's clothing and accessories particularly high heeled shoes and undergarments. When he was five years old. Brutus was playing in dump near his home and came across a pair of discarded patent leather heels. He brought the heels home and wore them around the house when I leaned discovered this new habit. She Berated Bhutto's mercilessly and ordered him to throw out the shoes but this ban transformed high heeled shoes from an everyday object to a forbidden taboo. It only made the shoes that much more tempting to brutus. Rather than discard the heels. He hid them and wore them in secret eventually. Eileen Qatar's on his continued cross dressing and she flew into a rage she rebuked brutus viciously and forced him to watch as she burned the shoes according to journalist. Lars Larson one of the few individuals to interview Jerry. Br Dose in prison Bruce Internalized this incident as a message of very strong disapproval from his mother. He learned that wearing high heels as a boy was wrong and dirty again. I leans reaction only fueled. The boys fixation footwear and its association with this mother's rage would eventually serve as the basis for Bruce's developing sexuality. Not long after I leaned. Bhutto's burned her son's first pair of heels jerry brutal sought to replace them one day as a young family friend. Napped with a pair of heels on brutus tried to pull them off of her feet when she awoke she was startled to see the small boy at her feet attempting to pry away her shoes kicking him aside. She ordered him to leave the room marking his mind. Another significant moment rejection involving shoes later. When Brutus was a teenager the family moved to grants. Pass Oregon. Their new neighbors had a number of daughters and brutus often snuck into the girls bedrooms to play. With their clothing his fetish grew to include bras underwear girdles and other feminine intimates and. Soon Brutus wanted access to women's clothes and shoes all the time so he began to steal them off from neighbors clothing lines eventually. He amassed a substantial stash which he kept carefully hidden from the watchful eye of his mother. It's important to note that the active wearing clothes and accessories typically associated with the opposite. Sex is not in and of itself wrong or indicative of a criminal or ill mind. Humans have partaken in so-called Cross dressing for centuries as part of theatrical productions or as part of Drag Queen Culture which is itself considered a form of performance art likewise it is important to understand the difference between cross dressing and transgenderism crossdressing. Strictly refers to the behavior of wearing clothes associated with the opposite sex however a transgender individual is someone who's personal gender identity does not correspond with their sex ED birth. There's no evidence that Jerry Brutus was. Transgender and his behavior should not be conflated with other culturally permissive forms of cross dressing around the time brutal started practicing his own devious form of crossdressing. He also began concocting sexually violent fantasies. The victim was always young and female and the basis for these fantasies was always the same. He Dreamt of trapping a young woman in an underground tunnel or pit. Unable to escape she would be forced to do as brutal pleased. Rudo says. Dark fantasies persisted throughout his developmental phase. Eventually he was able to resist his darker impulses and committed his first violent crime. In Nineteen fifty five at Age Sixteen. He had stolen the undergarments of an eighteen year. Old Neighbor girl the object of some of his first perverse fantasies. One day he approached her and claimed that he was working with police to catch a thief. Buddha's then invited her to discuss the details at his house making sure to choose a night when he knew the rest of his family would be out when the girl arrived. Brutus called from upstairs telling her to let herself in and join him on the second floor following the sound of his voice she proceeded to produce his bedroom inside a tall mast figure jumped out at her wielding a knife and demanded. Take off your clothes or I'll cut you. The girl wasn't fooled. She knew who the masked man was even as a teenager. Brutus was large cutting distinctive an identifiable silhouette trembling she did she was told and stripped wants. The girl was entirely naked. Brutus produced a camera commanding her to pose as he took pictures. When the role of film was spent the mast. Brutus left the scene. The girl quickly dressed and flew down the stairs there. She encountered brutus again this time however he was unmasked and bewildered acting as if he had only just entered. The House. Brutus claimed he'd been locked in the barn behind the house by a stranger at it only just managed to free himself. He asked the girl if she had seen anyone hanging around the property terrified. She's silently shook her head and fled. The girl eventually reported the incident to the police but not for several months until that time brutus believed that his first attempt at enacting his dark fantasies was a runaway success. It gave him the courage to try again and to escalate his violent acts coming up. Jerry Brutus develops his Mo and goes on the prowl. This episode is brought to you by the completely reimagined. Twenty twenty four to escape not too long ago. Driving seemed a lot simpler. Streets were less congested. And there were fewer distractions on the road. Nowadays a million different things are constantly fighting for attention. Ford believes it's not enough to make a vehicle with technology. Drivers need an SUV. That's ready for the challenges of today and can help anticipate the challenges of tomorrow an SUV. That's built street smart. That's why Ford has completely redesigned the twenty twenty four to escape there's Ford co-pilot three sixty a suite of advanced standard tack designed to help you feel confident and in-command on the road the completely reimagined twenty twenty four escape. It's not just smart. It's street-smart Hi Vanessa. I'm so excited for you to check out an incredible new podcast original. It's called dictators. And it lets you delve into the minds of some of the world's most feared leaders. You can hear new episodes every Tuesday here host Kate and Richard. To tell you more. Thank you so much. They are natural born leaders with a never ending thirst for power through force and deceit. They rise through the ranks towards radicalism. Eliminating anyone who stands in their way and the only thing more inevitable than their rise is there ruin. Discover the true stories of power greed deceit in the podcast original series dictators. Every Tuesday dictators examines the reign of a real life tyrant exploring the unique conditions that allowed them to seize control. Each dictator is analyzed in two part episodes with the first giving insight into the rise to power and the second chronicling. The impact of their downfall. Hear more about the men who claimed to love their country but were intricately responsible for killing millions of their own people. Men such as Prime Minister Benito Mussolini Supreme Leader Kim Jong Un and even Julius Caesar himself discover the governments that fell the lives that were destroyed and evil at its highest level followed dictators. Free on spotify over. Ever you get your podcast now. Back to the story by April of nineteen fifty six seventeen year old Jerry. Brutus had developed into a budding criminal a few months after attacking his neighbor. Bruce came across a teenage girl. Who needed a ride? He lured her into his car then began talking to her as if they knew each other and she had intended to meet him for a date. His behavior was unexpected. Bizarre and threatening the experience grew all the more frightening when Bhutto sped his car further and further away from town. As the girl began to panic he eventually pulled into the driveway of an farm. Then without saying a word he dragged the girl from the car and savagely beat her tearing at her clothes. Her screams caught the attention of a couple driving by out the car window. They spotted the hulking. Brutus bent over the girls. Crumpled form and swerved vehicle into the overgrown farmyard blocking brutus as exit as they stepped out of their vehicle to confront him. Brutus told the couple. The girl had fallen out of the car while he was driving. He explained away her screams as a hysterical reaction to the shock of the fall. The girl shook her head but was unable to speak through the pain. The couple was skeptical. Brutus changed tactics telling them he had come upon. The girl as another man was attacking her. She'd been fighting him off. When Brutus arrived at which point the man took off into the fields behind the farm. The couple suspected brutus was lying. He had changed his story so quickly and so drastically unconvinced. They escorted both brutus. And the girl back to their own nearby farmhouse where they called the Oregon State. Police once in custody. Brutus admitted that he had beaten the girl himself. He told officers he wanted to frighten her into removing her clothes and posing for pictures. He claimed to have been unexpectedly overcome by a combination of youthful veto and his own hot temper but when police searched Bruce's car they found camera equipment stowed away in the trunk. This was unmistakably premeditated act when they searched Bruce's bedroom police discovered his stash of photographs. Pictures of women's wear and shoes and nude photos of his neighbor. Bruce claimed he hadn't taken photos another boy had and force Bruno's to develop them let police however weren't convinced officers arrested him for assault and battery at seventeen brutal still qualified as a minor. Despite the violence of his crimes he was shortly referred to the Polk County Juvenile Department but a psychiatric examiner with the juvenile department determined. Bruce had problems that went far beyond those typical of teenage delinquency. He wasn't just a troublemaker. There was something deeply troubling about the young man. The examiner ordered Brutus committed to the Oregon State Hospital psychiatric ward so they could perhaps try to treat the mental malady that plagued the young man. The psychiatrists were initially puzzled by the stark contrast between Bruce's soft spoken personality and the vicious nature of his crimes according to author and rule who profiled Brutus in her book lust killer a state psychiatrists even commented on how normal brutal seemed to be they wrote. The boy does not appear to be grossly mentally ill. He comes into the interview situation and sits down in dejected fashion to talk with great embarrassment about his difficulty this difficulty. The psychiatrist mentioned was brutalises. Shoe Obsession. He was ultimately diagnosed with doctors termed adjustment reaction about lessons with sexual deviation and fetishism fetishistic disorder is defined as an intense sexual attraction to inanimate objects or body parts not traditionally known to serve sexual functions according to a nil agrawal a doctor of forensic medicine and an expert in paraphernalia or abnormal sexual desires. The disorder may arise from sexual imprinting the moment when humans learn to recognize sexually desirable traits when a child is imprinted with an incorrect concept of an object's purpose a subsequent fetishistic disorder can arise. It's not hard to see how Jerry Bruce's first frightening yet. Titillating experience with high heeled shoes could have birthed his own specific fetish. Despite this diagnosis doctors at the Oregon State Hospital determined that Brutus was not a lost cause after only a few short months of treatment he was released. He returned to high school. Bath fall this time. In the town of Corvallis Oregon just south of the state capital of Salem in Highschool Bruce Excelled in nontraditional electives such as stagecraft and electronics. Unfortunately his soft spoken personality made him an outcast with no regular friends. He occasionally tried to strike up conversation with female classmates but they found his awkward demeanor off pudding if not pitiable in the spring of Nineteen fifty seven at the age of eighteen. Brutus graduated from high school at the bottom of his class. He then enrolled at Oregon State University for a time before switching to the local vocational school in Salem in Nineteen fifty nine at twenty years old. Bruce enlisted in the US army where he was sent to Fort Ord California and Fort. Gordon Georgia for Basic Training. Because he was skilled in electronics and communications brutus was eventually signed to the. Us Army Signal Corps yet. Throughout all these moments of life Bruce's dark sexual compulsions still lingered. Brutus confided some of his twisted fantasies to an army psychiatrist. Captain Theodore J Berry Shocked and disgusted by what he heard Berry Determined Brew Tos unfit to serve. He was discharged and forced to return to Oregon to live with his mother. In nineteen sixty. Eileen Brutus was entirely displeased to see her dull son returned home rather than allow him to sleep under her roof. She reportedly forced him to sleep in the shed behind the main house. This emotional torment likely had a substantial impact on Bruce's mental state. And before long he was back to his Old Habits. He began stealing women's underwear and heels. He also returned to assaulting women one evening. Shortly after moving back home brutus went into Salem on an errand there he saw a pretty young woman walking to her workplace excited by her bright red outfit. Brutal followed her is movement was fast but quiet and in the blink of an eye. He grasped her neck and began to squeeze he held fast until she fell to the ground. Half CONSCIOUS ONCE. She lay helplessly on the ground. Brutal stole her shoes and ran away upon his escape. Brutus revelled in how easily he overpowered the young woman the fragility ever neck in his powerful grip. Shortly afterwards he tried to recreate the thrill and attacked another woman in Portland. This woman fought back viciously but brutal still manage to escape the encounter with one of her shoes back in his dark little shed brutal slept with the stolen shoes. He ruminated on power. Heat held over their former owners. This made him feel strong even under the hawkish gaze of his antagonistic mother when not hunting victims twenty one year old brutus kept up appearances. He passed the FCC's Commercial Radio Operator test with a license in hand. He found work as an operating engineer. With one of Corbala says Radio Stations Brutus liked his job. He was good at it. He fit in with the other station staff something previously unfamiliar to him but Buddha's longed for female companionship albeit a specific kind. He yearned for someone he could control indefinitely a kept woman. A friend at the radio station sat brutus up on a date. She was young and pretty and went by Darcy. Dorsey was seventeen. When she met twenty-three-year-old Bruce she had big eyes and dark hair. She was attractive and dated frequently. But what was most important to? Bruce was that she was a good girl quiet and soft spoken and obedient to her parents. Darcy was rarely one to question authority. She was exactly with Brutus was looking for when they first met. Darcy was not impressed with him though. Tall and broad brutus was average looking and already had thinning hair in his early twenties but Darcy was nothing if not compliant. An older man had asked her out so she felt obligated to accept Luckily Rudo so. He chose a swimming hole for their first date. Darcey love to swim. She was also surprised at Budo says sense of humor. He joked and made her laugh and soon enough. The seventeen year old girl reconsidered her preconceived notions about her big awkward date. Unlike his perception of other women BRUTUS FOUND DARCY ENTIRELY UNTHREATENING. She listened to him laughed at his jokes and made him feel important whereas women his own age hadn't found. Brutus appealing Darcy. Being six years junior was more easily impressed. After all brutus was a working man out of school he may have seemed like an attractive alternative to her sheltered life. Under your parents roof Darcy's parents however weren't fond of the strange young men. Their daughter was dating. But this only added to Bruce's appeal. The shy and obedient teen was now itching to rebel and Brutus was all too happy to help. He made it easy. Brutus put Darcy on a pedestal. He was tender and chivalrous holding doors open and lavishing her with compliments and flowers. The young lovers spent all their time together. Despite protests from Darcy's parents determined to cement their relationship they hatched a plan if Darcy were to become pregnant they theorized the to be allowed to marry it worked in one thousand. Nine hundred. Sixty to darcy became pregnant. The couple was within six weeks of the announcement. Brutus was twenty. Four Darcy wasn't quite yet eighteen. Brutus felt he had secured Darcy's lifelong commitment for better or worse coming up Jerry. Brutal spirals deeper into his twisted obsessions. While Darcy turns a blind eye now back to the story in the early sixties. Twenty four year old Jerry. Bruce fell in love with then seventeen year old darcy to quiet her parents rejections to the relationship. The young lovers conspired to have a child forcing a shotgun wedding sexually the couple's relationship largely catered to Bruce's tastes because Darcy was sexually inexperienced before meeting her husband. She thought there was little wrong with his insistence on taking nude pictures of her brutus was relentless expanding roll after roll of film building a Veritable Library of his wife's naked body. The photos were one thing. But some of Brutus is other sexual proclivities caused. Darcy more concern. He would occasionally director to ride their daughter's tricycle in the nude while he took photos sometimes even pulled a nylon stocking over her face during intercourse and through it. All Brutus insisted Darcy where patent leather heels during sex though she was compliant. None of these requests may darcy particularly happy yet. Brewed assured her this was simply what husbands and wives did for each other. She knew no better for Darcy. Outside of the bedroom the first few years of their marriage were domestic bliss. She had taken care of despite brutus inability to hold down a job when one fell through. He always seemed to find another radio station to take him on. Despite having an obedient kept woman at home Bruce went back to prowling the streets opportunistically stealing ladies undergarments from clotheslines. With Darcy. Busy caring for Baby Meghan. She didn't notice that her husband was spending more and more time out of the house at night as brutalises secret life grew more intense same urgency seep deeper into his marriage. Brutus demanded that Darcy wear high heels all the time even when doing household chores she went along with his wishes even though the shoes made her feet knees and back hurt but her patience was wearing thin. According to the National Domestic Violence Hotline Darcy may have tolerated this home environment for a number of reasons. Many victims of spousal abuse believed that the toxic dynamic. They experience every day is normal and as we previously established brutus was able to easily convince Darcy that his sexual demands were typical to most marriages and the heavy expectations placed on wives. At the time would have kept. Darcy from considering any alternative according to family lawyer Wendy L. Patrick social pressures highly discouraged divorce in the nineteen sixties. These pressures meant women endured more stringent expectations to maintain traditional family structures and so- Darcy put up with Bruce's sexual demands as well as the families. I tint lifestyle because Brutus was chronically incapable of holding down a job he had moved darcy and Meghan repeatedly from town to town in search of work by the time his second child. A boy was born in nineteen sixty seven. The family had relocated more than twenty times around the Willamette Valley. Brutus was only twenty eight in many ways. This was reflective of Bruce's own unstable upbringing. But this wasn't the only pattern from his childhood that he repeated though he was not outwardly cruel or derisive of his eldest. Meghan like his mother had been to him. British was distant with his children. Perhaps mimicking the attitude of his own absent father and while brutus drifted from his children Darcy now in her early twenties began to distance herself from Bhutto's emotionally and sexually as a more fully realized adult woman. Darcy had grown quietly suspicious of her husband's sexual appetites this tormented Bhutto's he even claimed suffer from migraines and self described blackouts whenever he sends. Darcy'S AFFECTIONS WANING. This insecurity triggered more nighttime prowls and more threats of women's underwear and shoes. Each transgression was a band-aid soothing. Bruce's anxieties pent up rage and purported migraines but only temporarily in a bid to recapture Darcy's attention. Brutus left photos of himself wearing stolen women's closed throughout the house but when Darcy found the pictures she threw them away and never asked her husband to explain. Darcy wanted no part of her husband's after dark activities but couldn't bring herself to face her increasingly troubling reality instead. She retreated into her motherly duties with absolute tunnel vision according to psychotherapist and relationship expert. Dr Karl lasco emotionally driven desires can sometimes override our perception of reality. Wanting to believe something is true or not true can supplant more rational considerations. Here Darcy may have been so overcome by her desire for a normal family life that she would not let herself confront her husband's obsessions if she refused to deal with. Bruce'S FETISHES IN HER MIND. They weren't real but Darcy's denial couldn't change. The reality of her husband's impulses and Brutus was chasing his fantasies with greater and greater ferocity in nineteen sixty seven. Bruce found himself alone in downtown Portland. There he spotted a young woman wearing a particularly alluring pair of heels. Initially Brutus wanted to knock her down then in there in broad daylight and flee with the shoes but he restrained himself instead he followed the woman for hours just out of sight when she returned to her apartment building. Brutus noted which window was hers? He waited until he could be sure. The woman was asleep then broke into her apartment to rifle through her closet hunting for the pair of shoes he had spotted earlier but the woman woke up. She saw hulking dark figure kneeling on her bedroom floor before she could scream. Brutus had already in leapt across the room to her bedside afraid she might register his face and be able to identify him to police. He wrapped his hands around her neck and choked her. The woman's body went limp excited once again by the feeling of absolute power wielded over. The woman's unconscious form brutally sexually assaulted her when he finished. He took the shoes he had come for. And left it signalled? A new phase of brutalises sexual sadism. He wanted to take something more than just physical possessions from his prey. His awful crimes would only escalate further after an accident at work. Further damaged his impulse control while working as an electrician at a radio station in Corvallis twenty-eight-year-old Bruce accidentally connected alive wire to a terminal sending four hundred eighty volts of electricity off his arm and threw his chest. The force of the jolt was so strong that it reportedly picked brutus up and threw him across the room. A smaller man may have been killed but brutus miraculously survived. Though the accident was life threatening he was never seen by Dr Despite Darcy's insistence. He refused to be examined. Perhaps recalling his negative experience being examined by Captain Berry and the army exposure to significant amounts of electrical energy can cause brain injury in fact studies have linked this form of trauma to a kind of acquired sociopathic or psychopathy. Dr Ryan Darby and Assistant Professor of neurology at Vanderbilt University. Medical Center in Tennessee has found a link between lesions and other long-term injuries to the brain and an increased risk of criminal behavior. This is particularly likely when an injury occurs along the brain's moral decision making network which includes the prefrontal cortex the posterior cingulate and angular gyrus. Together these regions governed impulse control and value based decision making injuries. Along this pathway can also inhibit empathy thus decreasing. A brain injured persons capacity for remorse. Bring US already lacked sufficient empathy to stop himself from assaulting and raping women. The electroshock likely made it worse after the accident. Bro Circled ever closer to the theme at the core of all his dark. Sexual fantasies a subterranean lair in which he could keep young women captive entirely subject to his will though brutal sometimes imagined his wife as one of his captive women he never hurt Darcy. She was spared. The fate that befell Bruises First Victim Twenty eight-year-old Brew Tos met Nineteen Year Old Encyclopaedia Saleswoman Linda S- Lawson on the street outside his house. He asked her inside and led her to the basement. The one area of the House. He forbade his family from entering. According to author and rule. Bruce told Linda. I'm really interested in buying some encyclopedias. The basement was dark and Linda was apprehensive but as soon as she heard those words Linda perked up. She felt more at ease with the prospect of a sale on the table recalling. Bruce's mention of a daughter. She attended to up sell him. A set of children's books also produced by her publisher as she bent to retrieve a set of promotional pamphlets from carrying case brutal offered to turn the basement light on. He quickly shifted behind her. The next thing Linda felt was an immense blow against the side of her head. She fell to the floor unconscious. Brutus had struck Linda with a wooden two by four with quiet haste. He dropped the plank and bent down to check her vitals. Detecting slight stirrings of life brutus began to squeeze her neck. He felt her bones crack beneath his brute force. He only let go when he was sure she was dead. He heard footsteps overhead in the excitement of his first kill. Brutus had forgotten that his mother was upstairs babysitting the kids while Darcy was out. He had to get rid of them fast. He dashed upstairs shoving a five dollar bill in his mother's hand. He instructed her to take the children to dinner. According to Anne rule he then demanded she knocked on the floor when she returned. He did not want to be interrupted once alone. Brutus returned to his basement shop of horrors. He immediately stripped Linda's corpse and was delighted to find. She was wearing a pair of bright red underwear. He then used slogans body like a doll posing her addressing her up in his collection of purloined. Women's clothes undergarments at shoes. But he knew he couldn't keep the body indefinitely. The basement freezer was too small to store. A full corpse. Brutus proceeded to cut off Linda's Lawson's left foot a more manageable sized trophy and a model for his precious collection of high heels. He could enjoy for days and weeks to come once. His family was asleep. Brutus slipped out of the House with slogans footloose corpse and trope north by two. Am Heat arrived at Saint John Bridge crossing the Willamette river into Portland pretending to have a flat tire? Brutus set up a Jack under the rear bumper. Cars passed but no one thought twice of the man rummaging in the trunk of a stalled vehicle by the side of the bridge when the coast was clear he tied. Linda's body to a heavy engine. Part carried her to the bridge rail and dropped her into the rushing water below utterly remorseless brutus packed up the Jack got back in the car and returned home to his sleeping family. Darcy was none the wiser that her husband had just committed his first murder days. Later at the encyclopedia publisher where Linda worked her colleagues. Assume she quit after all. Selling Encyclopedias wasn't a lucrative enterprise and sales people had a tendency to come and go. It wasn't until her own family raised the alarm about the Portland. Police began investigating went as disappearance as Linda's body at the bottom of the Willamette river. Her foot sat frostbitten in Jerry. Brutalises basement freezer but when he grew tired of using it to model shoes it followed the rest of her body into the water. Though he had tired of Linda's body the thrill of killing her lingered. Jerry Brutus had successfully carried out his first kill and he had no intention of stopping at one. Thanks AGAIN FOR TUNING INTO SERIAL KILLERS FOR MORE INFORMATION ON JERRY. Bhutto's amongst the many sources we used we found the book lust killer by an rule extremely helpful to our research you can find episodes of serial killers and all other podcast originals for free on spotify. Not only does spotify already. Have all of your favorite music but now spotify is making it easy for you to enjoy. All of your favorite podcast originals. Like serial killers for free from your phone desktop or smart speaker to stream serial killers on spotify. Just open the APP and type serial killers in the search bar several via vast how to help the show. And if you enjoy the show the best way to help is to leave a five star review and over get to follow us on facebook and Instagram. At podcast and twitter at podcast network. We'll see you next time. Have a killer week. Serial killers was created by Max Cutler. And his apar- cast studios original executive producers include Max and Ron Cutler sound design by one Boorda with Production Assistance Bhai Ron Shapiro Carly Madden and Freddie Beckley. This episode of serial killers was written by Jake Flanagan with writing assistance by Abigail Cannon and stars Greg Poulsen and Vanessa. Richardson don't forget to check out. Par casts fantastic new original series dictators. Every Tuesday dictators examines the rain. A real life tyrant exploring the unique conditions that allowed them to seize control. Discover the governments that fell the lives that were destroyed and evil at its highest level search for dictators in the spotify APP. And listen free today.
Little Atoms 564 - Fatima Bhutto's The Runaways
"Ever wondered what it's like to be lost in the African gender forest is amazing sound to explore untouched. Caves and understand how intensely nature impacts our human experience. Something has changed inside. You the BBC podcast. A brand new podcast telling stories of human experience is incredible blue water with the wonders of the natural. On a cast apple podcasts school wherever you get your podcasts. This is little atoms radio show about ideas and coacher with me now Denny. This week Fatima beaten latest novel, the runaways. Bhutto was born in Kabul, Afghanistan. She owes to grow up in Syria and Pakistan. She's the author four previous books. Most recently the highly acclaimed the shadow of the cresent moon, which was long listed in two thousand fourteen for the Baileys women's prize for fiction and Fatima's latest book, the runaways we're going to talk about today festival on a little atoms. Thank you for having me. Can you tell me how you would describe the runaways first of all it's a book about radicalism, but more specifically it's a book about what the west doesn't understand about radicalism and the radicalized, and I know it's a heavy subject. But it's to me the runaways is not just about the terror of our times. But also, the joys and the exiled as and and the sorrows to young people in what they go through growing up basically with universal. Yeah. I think it's a bit of generation growing up in the shadow of the war on terror a generation that really hasn't known any other way that is constantly surveilled and constantly. -cluded and constantly forced to prove their credentials for belonging. So the book has three main protagonists there's lots of other characters which does also talk about three main protagonists. So before we go through those characters intern. Tell me why you chose to tell it from that multiple character perspective will it it began actually with Monty and sunny it began with the idea of these two young men thrown together in circumstances that they could no longer influence or control. And around them grew the rest of the cost. Guests Leyla who was very ghostly figure Anita rose and her story, including Osama her elderly Marxist neighbor. So they they kind of snuck up on me. Actually, I'm so Anita roses is the first person. I want to talk about tell us something about her. Who is she Anita rose is a young girl who lives in much colony in Karachi, which is one of the largest slums, and she's an incredibly bright. Right girl who wants to do something with her life to wants to be stronger who wants to be seen and who wants to be free and that much economy. Tell us something about the area of Karachi. Once he like, what garage is an interesting place because it's a city that absorbs everyone on that has the capacity for everyone. But that doesn't mean that it treats everyone fairly or humanely so much a colony is kind of informal settlement and a lot of ways because a lot of the homes have grown up haphazardly. There's a lot of fishermen who live in much colony a lot of people working ordinary jobs Potanin Cindy's Mohajer, different ethnicities. And I think that's where you go. If you want to see Karachi, you don't go to the part of Karachi that shopping malls or McDonald's that could look like anywhere else on earth. You go to see people who live in communities that look after them and care for them. As we go into these characters. We'll talk about the. The individual cases of how they become radicalized in the book and Anita rises mothers. And so she works tell us what she does. She works for a a rich family. Well, she's a maliciously, which means it. She's a massage woman and she gets cold round to the houses of these rich women to massage they're tired bodies. And she travels by herself. She carries a little sack of oils, you know, a mustard oil almond oil and to sometimes has to take her to children with her because she has nowhere else to leave them if she's working and Anita sections include not only her mother, but her brother, and how the two of them respond in different ways to having to sit in the courtyards of these grand homes that they're not allowed to enter an brother. Indeed, he becomes as he becomes sort of difficult air of someone who is from the slums but wants to get on. And he becomes sort of a fixer and works for groups of shady people doing we don't really know what? Doesn't it? As I think, the Ezra Anita rose respond very differently. I think as res- reaction in a way is almost more understandable as raw hates the exclusion, and as in profoundly insulted and wounded by the fact that he has to sit on a bench by the gate, but it's not welcomed into these homes is not spoken to by the people who own these homes on it produces a particular kind of anger, and contempt and him. So this family the works for the live in this area. Clifton which is where when we finally Demonte later on is where he comes from as well. And indeed this is where you live tell us about this area. One is like well Clifton is an old neighborhood in Karachi. It's quite close to the Arabian Sea. And unlike the rest of the city, which is quite crowded and quite cramped cliffs in his wide avenues and banyan trees, and it's a legacy really of the Raj. When the British were in India, which Karachi was a part of at that time, they divided the. Into black towns and white towns. The white towns where the administrators of the Raj lived with their sort of leafy, bungalows and wide avenues. And the black towns were where the natives lived and those are completely different instructor in space in freedom in light. And unfortunately, Karachi remains as I think many subcontinental cities do laid out along those lines till today. Now, you obviously spend a lot of your life in exile in in different countries. But in the times when you are in Karachi. You've experienced this. As these people that come into the house and work in in the way, the need to raise his family does. Well, I was very lucky growing up in Karachi because of my father who was a politician. He was a member of parliament before he was killed. And he took me my grandmother took me, and I traveled a lot with my family into not just parts of the country that I really wouldn't have seen otherwise, but was went to people's homes and was welcomed into people's homes and stayed in people's homes, and it it gave me this incredible exposure, and it created in me, a constant feeling of being unsettled in my own environment. Because I knew how well how unfair it was. So next door to his house is lives. This old man Osama who I was a little bit mysterious in a bit of a bit of a sort of Schoten, and she gradually gets to know him because mother is constantly asking to go and borrow things. We've inverted commas. From Somma for the household, and he gradually introduces to rose to both poetry. Oh, do poetry and Marxism. He seems to be a man he was someone of some important at some point in the past. And I wanted to talk about Osama because I thought I will you're an activist. And you know, he seems the couch the press most represents your own politics. But I'd also say perhaps your father is well, I could see of other and Osama would that be accurate? I think this dreams of Osama or the dreams that I remember being passed down from my father, my father belong to this generation of Pakistanis that experience something beautiful something hopeful and the possibility of what was to come was exciting. It's a very different generation than my own which has grown up in the shadow of dictatorships and corruption and war. And and so a some has that idealism, and I think Anita rose an easy rose spoke about her brother earlier, she does. Begin with that idealism. I think a sense that the world can hold these many different cities in one that you might move between them, and that you might be given permission to break out every once in a while, but Osama the point we meet them in the story. He's I mean, that's all in the past. He sees himself. Guesses something as a failure. I think he's a bit of a broken, man. I think he's a broken, man. He's alone. He's been left alone. You don't really ever know why his family has left him. But you see that it's a sorrow that sort of trails behind him. And he doesn't have a nostalgia. For his better times. We have a brief moment in the book where he takes Anita to the Press Club, the Karachi Press Club because they've got no electricity, and he knows this is a place he can go and have a Cup of tea, and they can watch TV and everybody knows him and everybody knows him and everybody respects him. And Anita wonder why hasn't he brought me here before? And I think there's something profoundly decent about Osama. And that's why doesn't. He doesn't live on old glories because I think he believes in the future he believes that there can be more and more hope and more beauty to come. Can you tell us some interest as an aside about failures fans already power that he infuses any to he's not someone I've come across before. Fez, Emmett fezzes is an incredible by his sunny poets, and he he was very political poet as well. And he wrote a poem called Hyundai which means we will see I'd it's an anthem of resistance, and he wrote it at really the height of general Zale hawks dictatorship in Pakistan, and they'll hawk was a CIA backed dictator. He brutalized the country. You know, he he instituted things like amputation as punishment for theft. And so for phase two, right? I'm taking it was about the fall of dictator and about really the nightmare that he must face eventually when the people rise up is not just. An act of rebellion. But it's it's really a it's something so much more profound. You know, there's another great story from Pakistan. There was a singer Kotik Bob Arnot who sang home. They can gain Lahore at the height of the depression to a crowd of a massive crowd of people, and was forever banned from appearing on television was forever banned from giving concerts, but that's the sort of legacy. We have of poets in places like by Kasan, they're not just a romantic dreamers. They're really fighters to. So we need to becomes radicalized in the book. We won't talk about where that goes. But I wanted to talk about that method of her radicalization, which is, you know, through first of all disenchantment, seeing her mother's humiliation this which family, and then, you know, the Marxism. So she basically takes what perhaps now would be a an old fashioned path to radicalism, which is out of leftism. Yes, why think we've had such a suffocation? In terms of the discussion on radicalism, this sort of awful industry in the west that has swept in untold us that radicalism is about religion. As about one religion on. It's about these people from this place, and this what they look like. And of course, that's not only utterly false, but is dangerously misleading. And you're right radicalism. At some point was not identified with religion. It was identified with leftist politics, or radical Marxist politics. And I think ultimately anytime we talk about radicalism. We'll have to talk about things like pain like suffering like poverty, like inequality. And that's what I wanted to do with a lot of the characters in the book to show that what brings them to this. This terrifying point actually could happen to anyone almost Patmore wanna move onto the next to Monte that was the one that most closely resembles your own background, tell us where he comes from Monte is the only son of this very wealthy property developer and he lives in Karachi. Thirty in the white tower. Not the black town as the Raj called it. But I think we could probably still use those words and his family summers in London. They've got a flat near Harrods, and he really has a life of almost no needs. He has everything he wants and Monty meets a woman could Layla and his last year of high school at the American school in Karachi and falls dangerously in stupidly in love with her. You would to that school as well me what the American school in Karachi Islam tried to change the name of the school for the book. I switch the words around because it's it's not exactly the school. But yes, I did go to the American school, which was a wonderful place to learn was a great place to be a students because we were allowed a lot of questioning we were allowed to kind of almost independence that you know. I don't see a lot of young people having at school. But at the same time, it was a very elite school, you're surrounded by incredibly high walls. You've got all this. Space, and there's only three hundred of you and it had different phases. I guess so when I started at school there, it was this sheltered little bubble. But again, we were allowed to ask these questions we were allowed to sort of think beyond our borders. And by the time, I graduated in two thousand of the world had started to change terrorism. Had started to show itself. They're already air strikes against of HANA San under Bill Clinton's government, and then it became a really strange place. Then it became a weird place because it was sort of protecting you from your own country, the whole concept of of of American takes on a different tenant to the vast majority of the Pakistani population. I guess the idea that you know, the great Satan. Yeah. And not only that. But I think that the people who are willing to come and teach in a place like Karachi, which was then beginning to become dangerous. We're not really people who knew very much about it. And so we had professors who spoke about the country they were in our country in this. Parroting ways. I mean and the mistake was there because they'd sort of raised us to be a brutal confrontation. So we did we would say how can you say that that's completely racist and offensive, but it it did become a a strange and unusual place to be especially at that time. I'm not exactly what Lola does combat over with the professors. Exactly. So Leyla the American school. When I said, it used to have this really odd rule where they had one third Pakistan sonny's one third Americans in the one third international, and then towards the end they had to change it because we'll there were no more internationals or or Americans. So Leyla comes in really under this new opening for students, and Layla isn't impressed by the walls. And Layla isn't impressed by this kind of I don't know foreign view of her own country. And she she does ask a lot of uncomfortable questions and for someone like Monty who really never has asked those questions. She's fascinating. Now, we can't really talk too much about lately. Because she is central to the to the plot of the novel. But at the same time, she does I wanted to hash she becomes a symbol. Really? You know, you use to to show the idea of how Monte basically becomes radicalized because he sort of suggested to it by by Layla, and that sort of takes on. I think a sort of biggest symbolism in the story. Yeah. I think what we also miss when we talk about radicalism in the west is we miss in fact, how incredibly modern the recruitment. Is it doesn't say oh, leave your lives in England and in Paris and common Sydney cave. It actually has a very modern argument, which is seductive, which is come and being a place. That's anti-national. It's anti-national because we have no borders. So you have free movement within this community within this sort of kingdom or caliphate. And not only do you have mobility and access and belonging, but you also have power and that power means the conversation is held on your terms. The language is yours the forces. Who has the authority is yours and Layla certainly a part of that. And I think that's what draws a lot of young people or what drew a lot of young people to these places. It feels counter intuitive to a lot of us. I think to ask why would someone leave a home in Alabama or in Portsmouth and go out to moso? And I think it's because of those seductive qualities you mention Alabama. I wanted to talk about Monty's mother starts to also in a gentle way become radicalized, and she becomes obsessed with this TV terrible TV evangelist who always soliciting money from his people. And this is you know, he's a Islamic evangelists. Yes. But exactly like one of these terribles or the southern Baptist guys. We imagine when we think of it. So the TV if Angela so is that is that something happened. Yes. I mean, that's almost a real character. The the TV evangelist who wants his mother becomes enthralled by it does happen. And I think you know, I think there is a there was a divide generation Louis when we talk about people who who full very quickly and very deeply into a religious sway, which is almost cult. Like, I think an elder generation like Monty's mother is lonely and wants answers for a world that they don't have answers to and dealer. These evangelists who come by. And we'll we'll give them advice in return for cash, and you know, events, you know, that they want to be hosted in. I think that's an older generation whereas Monty's generation or Sunny's or any of their generation. It comes with this millennial aspect of fame. You know of being religious for an audience of followers for being followed for your beliefs being liked for your beliefs going viral. And I think they both exists, and it's really interesting. In a place like San at least, how each them gathers followers each of those two different methods, gather, followers, and Monte he's in the same way as any two rows. He's sort of disenchanted with the facile trappings of Madonna too. But obviously coming from the opposite end of the spectrum. Yes, exactly. I think Monty someone who wants for nothing, and who has imported food for dinner if you feels like it who does all his shopping abroad. I think Monty understands that this something profoundly emptying that. What is purpose and all that he doesn't know. And I think I think to Monte's credit he wants to find out. He just takes the wrong path. Ever wondered what it's like to be lost in the African John. The forest is amazed sound to explore untouched. Caves and understand how intensely nature impacts our human experience. Something has changed inside the BBC of podcast, a brand new podcast telling stories of human experiences. Incredible Lou water with the wonders of the natural. On a cast apple podcasts school wherever you get your podcasts. You're listening to little atoms. I'm nailed any today to Fatima Bhutto took it about her latest novel, the runaways sunny final protagonist, he's grown up in the UK. I'm sort of secondary Shen immigrant his father came over from India. And we'll talk about his father in a moment. Some his path. I think one we're more familiar with in the U K because basically ripped from the headlines something we could say in prosper, first of all. So he grows up in Portsmouth as as a second generation emigrant. And I was really struck by how well described towns police if I grew up in in less, which is town of similar similar size. Also has a massive diaspora from the continent. And tell me wanna know how you researched sights sounds smells of of. Well, sunny was sunny, ease really my favorite character. And I spent the most time building sunny and thinking about sunny and being anxious about and four sunny and so-, Portsmouth. I had had so many different layers of the research to Portsmouth. I had the kind of finding out and reading and watching videos, and then I had a strange detour. I learn all the slang from Fort Smith and all of it in the book, and then took all of our because I thought no come on. You can't Congo too far and learning about the neighborhoods and trying to understand what happens in the local paper and trying to follow the football team. I did all of that. But I think really what's what under the most about sunny which made everything else a natural understood his slowness and his his feeling that he didn't belong anywhere and actually not really knowing where he wanted to belong either Suman his father. Has taken this typical Kover from India, and you know, taking a brave move of leaving everything knows and come into a cold distant hostile island and start in a life, which is an incredibly brave thing to do. But at this point he again is looking back on his life with disappointment think. Yes, I think Sulaiman Jim you'll sonny's father really breaks his life to migrate England on his generation that comes over young and able to do anything and willing to do anything. And he does it because he magin that there's a great future that awaits him here. But in the end, it's a shock the experience of being migrant the experience of being displaced and the knowledge that the place who imagined with all these riches, and all this possibility is nobody open to you. You'll kept outside it and a matter. How hard you try to learn the right way to be the right to talk the right ways to fit in. They still don't let you in any think he's disappointed but in his disappointment. He just tries harder. And that something was embarrassing for his son that something is on is is a little mortified by. Because he doesn't understand why his father left a place where he actually could have been something for Portsmouth swim. His cousin is the person radicalize him. And and this is this is sort of patent that we say often in the UK, tell us sort of tactics that somebody else would use to against jeez. Somebody likes me. I think I think sunny is glamour by those all his elder cousin who who goes away mysteriously and he claims to have gone to a refugee camp, but nobody actions in the evidence that he was in a refugee camp, nobody really has any evidence. What all's did when he was away. But he comes back really confident and really assured, and he knows this new language and these new phrases borrowed from a religion that he claims now to represent and he starts to indoctrinate sunny. He starts to tell him that Britain is. A place for men like them. They're just wasted. Here. There's another place where men like them could be powerful and not only powerful where they could influence communities of men and sunny and his loneliness, and who is wanting believes those to be true. And he follows him. Actually, I was just in Lahore does on aside. And I did a reading for the runaways and somebody came up to me afterwards and said, but I did actually work at a refugee camp. Why did you make all and I said, no, no, no, he doesn't. That's the whole point of all is always is a charlatan all the someone who moves wherever the political wind blows. So if it suits him, he's a refugee worker it suits him. He's a radical. You never really quite know with him miles boilers. I. The other aspect of sunny is that he's confused by sexuality as well. And something that's not really talked about it. I think is obviously I can understand this sort of come rodri- of why young men would want to go away. Enjoy their brothers fight somewhere. But also this is how we're autism about as well. I think it's an incredibly difficult time to be anyone. I think it's an incredibly difficult time to be a man, especially in an environment where the rules have always been so rigid and so strict what does it mean to be a man with force in the world. What does it mean to be a man who can confront the environment around him and Sonny deeply struggles? With that. I think he I think the Homer eroticism really comes from his his wanting is wanting in a particular sense, his longing to be loved to be respected and to be a brotherhood of some kind and in as again, not to give to any spoilers away. But all. In a way makes him thinking might have that when he goes away. He makes them think that this is a band of men that know what it means to fight to struggle to be beat down. And yet they're still men the not diminished by it. I think that's really appealing to him at the same time as he grapples with the idea of his sexuality in what it might include. And what it might exclude. I mean right now as we speak in the U K of the country is convo st- with the story of Shamima Begum, the, you know, one of these so-called ISIS brides. You know, who's been to Iraq and seeing terrible things in some respects is pretty unrepentant of reasons why she was she men, but she's a British citizen. And now there is this sort of political argument about what to do with her. And obviously go about it's an entirely the wrong way. But I just wondered if you sort of thought about this idea of how how we deal with young people who have had this sort of level of radicalization. Yeah. I think I think she Meema begums case is really fascinating. And I think done Massana the the American woman who also ran away and now wants to return to macrolide interesting. She was asked in a interview, what would you say to Americans? What would you say to them? And she said I wish I could take it of the internet. I wish I could take it all off the internet and to me that was so fascinating. Because these and they are young women, and they are young men who were born in these countries. They were educated in these countries, they grew up in these countries. And I suspect that part of the reason they left because they felt there wasn't a future for them in their countries another they've made this grievous error in Sonoma begums case at least as far as we know so far she didn't kill anyone. She didn't hurt. Anyone wasn't a part of propaganda was Hooda with a was a part of propaganda. She was a part of inciting people to violence now that they've done this awful thing. All this aspersions are confirmed by the countries who've said well now, we don't want you back to say to Shamima big you go to Bangladesh a country. She's never even visited is really quite astounding. It's quite remarkable because it's Britain Bangladesh that has a responsibility in the trajectory of her life, and her radicalization, and you mentioned earlier in an interview, and these two real-life young women are obviously, you know, their radicalization has been through, you know, YouTube videos, Facebook pages and things and again, all young. People now are dealing with this legacy of how do you live online? You know, how'd you live? How'd you go for a job interview? When something you might have said in ten years ago, still online might KOMO pin. Whatever you for this group of people just happens to be Islamic radicalism. But this is somebody that everybody's dealing with. Also, the thing where all these different words collide is the the impulse for fame that this generation has it doesn't matter. Whether you're a busker in Covent Garden or your radical moso, you'll filming yourself. You're photographing yourself constantly because you want people to know your name now. Why is fame impulse that? We should be encouraging young people to seek out. I don't think it is. I think is incredibly dangerous, and I think what it does is. It destroys a young person's ability to explore the world to carefully seek out spaces and freedoms and interest. Because it it kind of removes that doesn't it removes your ability to make mistakes to be redeemed and to have fresh starts one more question for me. Okay. To read their annoys. If you would as I mentioned in the introduction, you spent a lot of your life exile. And you grow up in Beith ghanistan and Syria to places in reason history of become Voest by Islamic fundamentalism and destroyed and I wondered what it's like to see from a distance places that you know, have happened. What was very very young when we left on Assan, but I did grow up in Syria. And I spent a lot of time in Damascus. And at the time that I was growing up, you know, Syria was a secular country. So when I was growing up in Syria. I didn't know I knew I was Muslim. But I didn't know if I was so near Shia, and I remember it wasn't until I went to buy his Sam that somebody asked me, I I didn't know how to answer actually had to go home and ask my father, but Syria wasn't a place that you felt you were under a sort of target. If you belong to one group or another religiously, obviously, it was different if if you hunt political leanings, but I went to school with Armenian Christians. A we had Hindus we had different kinds of Muslims, and it never would have occurred to me that Syria will places would be a kind of laboratory for Slavic fundamentalism that I never would have guessed. So it's it's heartbreaking and at the same time experiencing bags on where we've seen it grow. And we've seen it flare up is interesting because we've also seen it die down. And we've also seen people refuse to be. Afraid and defend version of their religion that they believe isn't represented. I'm so I have hope in by San which maybe ten years ago. I might have told you I didn't have that much think things are changing. I think I think this generation of Pakistan's young generation coming up on the stands that you could be many things at once and then a gauche eating that. And I think the doing it. Well, actually, I suppose points to end on. And so if I can get you to. So this is a section about a need to rose. And she's the young girl who lives in much colony on at this point in the story. She goes to a local school, and she's about well, I don't know actually how she young young girl at the state. So it's early in her story at night, Anita draped, her mother's heavy black charter over her shoulders crept out of the house and walked to the nearby hotel and sat on the corner of the walla's block listening to the way the actresses on TV spoke. She heard a talk show host interview one of the ladies from one of her favorite, cereals, it's such a blessing. You know, Sheila Cosmi said an English that sounded like velvet felt against the skin smooth and luxurious and unaffordable to be able to follow my dreams. And do what I love until Anita could stand it until is became lazy with sleep. She sat on the corner of the street, cockroaches scurrying in and out of the garbage tickling her feet and. Wrote down. All the words. The actress said in her shiny red notebook. She repeated her favorite lines to herself as she walked through the alleyways piled high with roading banana peel and mulch lit only by the milky white of the distant stars committing the words to memory before she went to sleep. What's the prostitutes daughter like you doing with a fancy notebook like this Meerut onto the neater rose at school? An ISA didn't answer her. She had learned a long time ago to ignore the girls who ended her Mira's mother was actually a prostitute Anita had seen her standing in the window of their home, wearing only chilly pressing her breasts against the metal bars and calling down to the men in rituals and scooters below. It was why Mira hated Anita. Why should teased her and bullied her because she knew his mother never sold her body. Even though the Joseph's were infinitely poorer than her mother with the chili standing at the window grilles. Leave it Anita said, she'd filled three pages or. Ready selecting only the most precious words she had even started watching the news, which she learns an entirely new vocabulary corruption fraud hypocrite fundamentalist Zionist she could not afford to lose the notebook now conspiracy. She had learnt that only yesterday me was eyes flickered without as a neat to refuse to relinquish the notebook and Anita so her panic in front of the other girls, if Anita defeated this one bully the rest would see Mira for what she truly was an empty threat. Diffused of all her power, Anita soit all that pride in exile. Eighty in the way mirrors is swelled and contracted. But before Anita understood that she would never have the chance to extract any kind of retribution. The game was already so skewed against her Mira sank, her ragged fingernails into the veins of nita's hands an ISA, try to release herself Mira's grip, but mirror only dug in harder onto her nails had left. Scratching of Demi Lunes burning into the back of his hand. But she had not let me rec- how much she had heard her Anita would not give those girls the pleasure of knowing how their cruelty had marked her. She walked back home from school with her head held high. As though she were carrying a book on the center of her crown as she walked stopping only to pet the stray dogs resting in the shade of the billowing. Bunion Tris Anita bit her lip to keep the tears from falling down her face. So I've been talking to Fatima Bhutto we've been talking about her latest novel in runaways, which is out now in the UK from penguin Fatima Sankey so much for coming in sharing. It thank you for having me on the podcast this episode of little atoms whose produced presented by me nail. Denny edited by sky Redmond and was first broadcast on measurements. One four point four. FM Latins is supported by eighty nine up and hosted by if you enjoyed the show, please subscribe raters tunes and even tell a friend. Thanks for listening.
Live edition: Elif Shafak and Fatima Bhutto
"Hello. And welcome to meet the writers. I'm Georgina Godwin this week. The show comes in a slightly different format. Broadcasting the first of our meet the writers live events today in association with daunt books. The session was recorded. Don't books festival in that beautiful mulligan premises and features to extraordinary world renowned writers. Elif Shafak is an award-winning British Turkish novelist and the most widely read female author in Turkey. She writes in both Turkish and English and has published seventeen books eleven of which novels a work has been translated into fifty languages in two thousand seventeen she was chosen by Politico's one of the twelve people who would make the world better. She's judged numerous literary prizes and his Charing. The welcome prize two thousand nineteen a most recent published work is three daughters of eve and latest book, ten minutes. Thirty eight seconds in the strange world is due out in early June. Fatima Bhutto was born in Kabul Afghanistan in nineteen eighty two. She grew up in Syria and Pakistan. She's the author of four previous books, including the highly acclaimed the shadow of the cresent moon, which was long listed in two thousand fourteen for the Baileys women's prize for fiction, a new book, the runaways exp. Applause what it is to be young and Muslim in a polarized world as the show was recorded live. And there are a couple of sound problems. I've re recorded the questions just to help you hear everything properly. I started by asking Fatima rebound, her family background. But who is obviously a famous name and Fatima told us about the political dynasty to which she belongs documented in her memoir songs of blood and sword. Sons of blood and sword was a book that I wrote out of a promise to my father. My father Murtha was a member of parliament in Pakistan, and I was very close to my father. He raised me as a single father. Till I was seven years old, and he was killed in nineteen Ninety-six on just two nights before his murder. We were sitting in the drawing room of our house, and it was quite late at night. And I said to him, you know, you've lived this incredible life. Why don't you write a book, and he said to me? No, you do it. But do it when I'm gone. I didn't know none of us knew that that would be in two days. So it was a story that I wanted to tell out of love for my father. But also as a young Cassani who had grown up in a country that had always been shadowed by violence and dictatorship. But that had the promise of so much more. So songs of blood and sword is a story about my family. But I think it's also a story about a time in in my country to buy his on has had an incredible history in the seventy one year. Years of its independence. We've had military dictatorships. We've had wars we've had an all of this takes place. This is lived by population of mainly young people something like seventy percent of our population is under the age of thirty. And I know by a so tired of being cold resilient and brave, but the truth is there's so much more than that. Because they've taken the difficulty in the uncertainty of their time. And I think they building hope on it. Now, I know that you're American publishers were very wary of publishing this book because of controversial content just for reference, I wrote songs of garden sword, which was the story of my father's murder at the time in which the man who I accused of being responsible for his murder was the president of the country. I had less trouble with that book. Then with the runaways the runaways is about not just what is like to be young and Muslim. But it's also about radicalism on what it is that the west doesn't understand not just about radicalism. But about the radicalized and I'm yet. It's surprising. How much pushback there is. So it doesn't have an American Home yet. Even though my other books did. But we were talking downstairs. It does have a French home. And I'm heartened by that. Because you know, FRANZ has struggled a lot with the idea of. Well, I mean they've struggled with a bunch of things. But I mean, most recently Islam young Muslims. But I think that there I'm I'm heartened to see that they're ready for an uncomfortable conversation and the discomfort hasn't put them off. Well, the book has received fabulous reviews and just wonderful wonderful claim from brunette writers, in fact, leaf herself also. And so I wondered if if you would just tell us a little bit about maybe about the three main protagonists and then to reading so the runaways is told through several lives at the forefront. You have sunny who is born in Portsmouth, though, his father migrates from luck. Now and sunny is growing up import Smith, but all the while feeling that he doesn't quite belong on he resents. His father's choice, which is one of sacrificed have moved his family across the ocean to Portsmouth, and then you have Monte. Who comes from Karachi, but Montes life is one of luxury and privilege and ease. But yet he too is uncertain about his place in the world, and what it means to have no problems. And then you have neater rose who lives in much colony which is a very large settlement slum in Karachi, and she grows up with a brother raised by a single mother who is a mileage while who goes to people's houses who carries a little by oils to massage these rich women and they're tired bodies in their home. And I was going to read a section from just for context. This this takes place right after a fight between sunny and Monte, the gum giving anything away by saying that they meet eventually. That's what I think you need to know at this point shy. Please. After that attack in France an old woman in curlers spot at sunny on the bus. I didn't fucking do it. He wanted to tell her burning which shame the conductor saw the whole thing in his mirror and smiled at sunny. Sympathetically don't mind her. He said she thinks I did nine eleven spits. It everyone. But the conductor was a brother like Sonny Brown Brown can be and the old woman looked at sunny like she knew him like she knew who he was and hated him for it. We should go soon Monte mutters behind sunny now he looks rattled trying to pretend that Sonny has just slammed him to the ground. I think we need to move sunny. But right now, Monte remind sunny of everything he hates of his father and his delusional unreachable expectations of the school that had no place for sunny. No one who looked like him in their books, not to that spoke, his language or understood his place in the world. This is Europe the headmistress at Saint Thomas's told Sonny after he got cold in for smashing Benz. Join to the table he tried to tell her that Ben had drawn a swastika on that Jewish kids bag that it was racist and hurtful and that he had. Humiliated sunny for years saying he should pack his bags and go back to back you son, where Sonny was not even from and stop sucking Europe. Dry. Why was that not European the Faulk was Europe about then I wrote this before Brexit, by the way, but she wouldn't listen I was born here. Sunny told the headmistress, I'm not a migrant. This is Europe. She sneered like she couldn't hear him. We are civilized here. We are educated. We do not assault people over an insult. I'm not a migrant sunny repeated this is my home. Well, then Mr. Jimmy will the headmistress replied, solely you ought to know, then how civilized people behave. Great. How many people have read it so far great? So so there are a few people who have you know, what that's leading up to why the choice and you've done this in a previous to to not just have the one protagonist. But to have the multiple threads this story began with really two people with Monty and sunny, and as I wrote and rewrote and kept going deeper into their story. More people came up. So it was not intentional. But I like the idea of having people in collision with each other. And I like the idea that that collision can change and become conversational unless combative. I mean, you've done that too haven't you relieve particularly in your nura three daughters of eve, you have three women. They're they call themselves the confused the sinner believer. Tell us about them. Yes. And the in the three that are three young women Muslim women. But their relationship with a religions completed different. So we have Sheeran who is research Sheron, Ian. And she's the child of exiled parents. Parents who had to run away from fundamentalism and shearing this quite critical all religions, but in particular, she's very critical of Islam the way it's practiced because of particularly because of the lack of gender equality, and then there's Mona who is an American. She wears a headscarf. She's a practicing Muslim, and she complains about Islam phobia. Because this is something Shakespearean ses almost every day. And then there's Perry who's the Turkish girl. They're all Oxford, by the way, and the Turkish girl has questions about anything and everything we took so confused. So I wanted to make pity the country's one and jokingly they call themselves. The sinner the believer on the confused, but mostly the story focuses on the journey of the confused one. So we go back to periods childhood, and who she is today in stumbled, and I wrote this book at a time when there was so. So much uncertainty today in Turkey today. There's even more. So, you know, you feel like you're in a tunnel dark tunnel that goes on and on and on actually that so method for that data would use for say regimes like it's a tunnel and Turkey is one of those in one of those tunnels, but in the year two thousand fifteen when I wrote this book, you might remember those of you who are familiar with the country. There are so many terror attacks like almost every week every month. Suicide bombings in different parts of the country. And I observe this ice to commute a lot between stumbling London back, then especially these dinner scenes in his Tom bul one moment. People will be talking about their bugs, very mundane things. And the next moment somebody's checking their Twitter feed. And you just learned it has been a poem attack somewhere and people have died. So then you talking about this. And then again, switch back to very Monday subjects so that's his rainier of emotions it just to me was incredibly perplexing. So at some point I wanted to name the spook the last supper of the Turkish, bourgeoisie and editor warned me not to do that. But me those dinner since because the whole book is set across a long supper the dinner with its starters, main course desert and with flashbacks travel back to Oxford. So that's dinner scene. I think those were the most realistic chapters if I may call it that way in the book because everything that I observed or things that I observed herds witness directly somehow seeped into this into this novel, all these political conversations. Would you read for us? Yes. I would love to read just a very short passage and the part I want to reads is actually focuses on periods. Father her parents are very different her father her mother is quite religious. But the kind of religiosity that has fear at its center. So she's very rigid. Whereas her father is Democrats. He believes in seculars, and unlike many of them were 'grats in Turkey, his quite depressed. Her parents would us incompatible as tavern and mosque the frowns that descended on their browse the stiffness that infused their voices identified them, not as a couple in love. But as opponents in a game of chess on the faded board of their marriage. The each pushed forward strategizing, the next moves capturing cost cels, elephants and vizier is aiming to deliver the ultimate defeat each side. So the other as the tyrant in the family, the intolerable one and loan to say someday checkmate shot manatee, the sovereign is helpless, their marriage had been so deeply woman with mutual resentment that they no longer needed a reason to feel wrong and frustrated even at that young age pity sensed that love was not and probably never had been. Been the reason why her parents were together in the evenings. She watched her father slumped at the table with plates of MRs this tributed around the bottle of record stuffed. Grape leaves mushed chickpeas grilled red peppers, artichokes in voile and his favorite lamb sprain. Solids he would eat slowly something each dish. Like, a fuss tedious Kona, sir. Even though the food was no more than a necessity. So as not to drink on an empty stomach item. Gambled. I don't steal. I don't accept bribes. I don't smoke, and I don't go around chasing women surely Alah with spare old creation this much. Steve. Her father was fond of saying. He would have a friend or to join him for these lengthy suppers. They would rutta loan about politics and politicans depressed about the state of things like the majority of the people in this land. They talk most about the things they likes least travel the world will see everyone drinks differently. Her father would say he himself had moved around the fair amount in youth as a ship's engineer in a democracy when a man gets drunk. He cries what happened to my sweetheart, whether it's no democracy when a man gets drunk. He cries what happened to my sweet country soon worse would melt into melodies, and they would be singing, bouncy, welcome tunes. First revolutionary block see son's next and gradually inevitably on a Tolan ballots of heartbreak and love Turkish Kurd. Kurdish. Greek Armenian, let me know lyrics would make sin the air like hauling with so smoke sitting by herself in a corner. A heaviness of heart would come over Perry. She often wondered what it was that made her father, so sobbed she mentioned Soros sticking to him like a fine layer of block ta under the soul of his shoe. She could neither find a way to lift its spirits nor stock trying for she was as everyone in the family will testify her father's store. Make the point in you, excuse me, you both point in your books that you can't speak of the the Muslim world is marginalized whole that. It's very very different. This is this is a new modern Muslim identity, or is it, of course, it's not a monolithic hole, and it never was actually throughout the centuries. And I find it on fair to lump together everyone use the same object is sweeping generalizations. I mean, even I remember just to share with you one example after my parents separated. Those summarize I spent with my two grandmothers around age seven, and I remember very vividly. My paternal grandmother's interpretation of Islam, and my maternal grandmother interpretation of Islamic co plea different in one house. The Koran was upon the wall. You were not supposed to touch it. Let alone read it, especially as a woman. You just supposed to admire from a distance. And there was a little fear. This Jill all side of God, always sin and watching you. And I remember coming back from their house feeling slight traumatized unable to go to the bathroom because God is always watching you. And then I come to my maternal grandma's house. And I tell her, you know, I can't go to the bathroom because God is watching and she says. Honey, I'm sure he has more important things to so this is a different woman and the Koran is on the shelf. He can't take it. You can read it can ask questions and her interprofessional Islam was based on the Jamal side of God. Which is the beauty side, and I've experienced so even if my two Turkish grandmothers who are both Sunni middle class same age Turkish women if they heart they are so different if they can be so different. Imagine the extent of the variety and diversity across the Muslim. Sunny believes that is is tolerance of love but gradually his cousin begins chick away at him. Explain to us that radicalization percents part of the thing. I keep saying I'm going out with the runaways is is that the last twenty years have been fed to us with a really dangerous live, which is radicalism is born of religion that it comes from religion that it has its source in religion. And to me that seems completely untrue. Sanni is one example of it. But I think even if we're looking at the news today for watching the stories of Shamima Begum of these young women who are going out. There were men who ran away from England to go. Enjoy an ISIS and they'd bought Islam for dummies of Amazon before going. So these are not theological sevens or students of religion. I think radicalism comes from alienating. I think it comes from anger. I think it comes from pain and humiliation. And by all accounts religion is not a part of that, you know, five even did a study where they found an established religious identity was an insulation against radicalism. People who had strong. Centering in religion were not easily radicalized, but people are are vulnerable to radicalization because they feel cut off from the society, they live in because they feel they don't have a future in the country that they call home because they feel that their voice doesn't matter that they have no security in terms of dignified work or living. If I think even the through the last years the things that make me angry the things that hurt me as a person are not anything to do with religion. It's that feeling of being wounded of being insulted of being somehow degraded and that that degradation comes from inequality and it comes from nationalism. We see everywhere. That's where it comes from. How can Muslims and non-muslims exist and be given free speech and be pulse of a pluralist society? I find the watch news for important. Put a listen. And I think all extremist ideologies, whether it's Islamic fundamental, the simple, the far-right, they have this income, and they can't stand multiplicity. They don't like poodle this. So they look at each and every one of us, and they ask us to make a choice who are you? Choose your side, and the only that but as human beings win up just one thing, we never were, you know. So I don't like this singular ritually exclusive identity politics, which is imagining the first place anyhow and for me a feminist. I lived in different countries over the years, one of the things that left a big impact on me was when I was living in Boston offline American women's movement in that part of the country, especially in the previous generations as I kept reading their works. And they words it really influenced me in so many ways. So when you read people like Audrey, Lord, or I'll give you another. Sample like James Spaulding, because I think he had us wild. There was this emphasis on multiplicity. Why because well they were black. They knew what racism was about in the case of old reload. She was a woman she knew what sixes and was about many of them came from disadvantaged backgrounds. These are not people born with a silver spoon in their mouths. And they knew how clusters commission worked like some of them came from L G T background stay knew what homophobia was about. So are all those layers and when you read their works. There's this emphasis on multiplicity. They say, look, I'm a woman, I'm mother, I'm a I'm black on this on that many more things that you might not be able to see it. I glance I contain those multiplicity inside with forgotten that today's fast forward, I think in today's pry ballistic world we're very much drawn into safe zone. So called we're being. That if we're surrounded by sameness, we will be safer about sending Lucien and also it's not the right thing because we can have multiple belongings as him be sire. Anything we need to fight for that multiplicity for that. Polluters? Are there is here in the audience? Yeah. What they are. And they continue one thing because we're from a province where from a town in the province, each part has a language. We have. Layers upon layers of Indians to. Berkey soggy. I think there's. You might disagree with me. But I think took his a society of collective on this year. You know, we we're familiar with that too. This was a multi ethnic multi lingual multi religious empire. So our ancestors. Our neighbors are stories are mingled with lots of other ethnic minorities and identities, but we don't we have no recall election of any of that this imagining homogeneity is also wrong, and we have no memory even in stumble. Which is a fascinating city was such a rich history. There is no memory you just walk by a house who live the what happened that he walked by a graveyard also because we country the old off of it anymore. No idea who is buried in. Under those stones who are these people? What were they stories? So I think for me as the writer, of course, as as storytellers withdrawn two stories, but I think I'm equal to draw into silence. What are the things? We don't talk about or refined hard talk. About those taboos political cultural sexual taboos. There's a part of me that wants to talk about those. As a storyteller, you judging you characters. No, I think you can't you can't begin a a story. If you've already decided to indict someone I think novels, especially are in empathetic medium, and you only progress through compassion and through watching and allowing people to act as they do without condemning them. Now Perry's looking for third path, and she writes him what she calls her. Good diary. She's trying to find a space for things that fall under neither belief new disbelief you right? It's as if I'm searching for new language an elusive language spoken by no one. But me will have you found that language leave? In. I don't know what it is. But I think we don't have to know. I think I think that Joan is ongoing, isn't it? You know, it's it's an endless search, and that's the beauty of it. And that's the most of it. But I think what people do I I'm very critical of organized religions, I have to tell you. I don't like the way they divide humanity into us versus them. And this basic assumption that is better than them or closer to God than them that is not close to my heart. At all. I find the certainty that many very religious people regionally religious people have troubling to be sure of the ground beneath your feet where else even if you had been born in a different family in a different parts of the world would be very certain. You might have been certain about another religion in just to be. We have to be aware of that first simple truth. But I also find equally troubling the certainty of people who are very rigidly atheist because I think those who are very rigid about Joseph. They want to get rid of dubbed and faith without surveyed dangerous thing. It's a dogma dogmas are dangerous on the other hand people who are very viciously face. They want to get faith but in life, you need faith, faith, Gambia's secular concept as well. Even to start the book is an act of faith when you're right on. So what intrigues me more than that certainty is the, Dan so faith and out. And I think I find that inaugural sticks or in mistakes, or in those mystics who are misfits walking in line, and they existed those people when I look at Jewish mysticism Islamic mysticism Christian schism would as dollars my see that incredible common core that mystics. All faiths sheds, but they were walking very thin line between faith and out. And that is why the journeys endless, and it's very personal like our fingerprints. You might be very that. Just today who knows tomorrow, you might be a doctor, and I will respect that. No one has the right to judge you on that because that's the personal journey. So I make could stink tion I guess between the Joe sedan spirituality for me. They're not the same thing. I agree very much with relief. And that's the process of life when ten years ago, if you asked me, are you religious, or even are, you spiritual? I would have said no because I've hung my hat on that very secular identity. And then things change the world change you change with it. And last year. I wasn't estan bull. Actually, I was in Turkey, and I had a long flied, and there were delays, and I was a bit discombobulated, and I went to sleep a bit frazzled and early in the morning with the sunrise, I heard the John I heard the call to prayer from the mosque, and I immediately felt calm. I immediately felt like I was at home, and I was safe and everything would be fine. That's not a reaction. I would have had ten years ago or twenty years ago, but to me today to be in London, a wonderful thing. But I miss the. I miss. I miss marking my days with it. I miss a sense of belonging and continuity by hearing that's a journey. That would never have predicted wouldn't have wouldn't have known. How to explain at the same time. I agree very much moved by other religions and the philosophies of other religions, and I like moving between knowing not knowing seeing and watching being feeling I'd like to talk about actual language. Now, you write in English and Turkish how does the language that you Reiten influence the content of your work? Which is so much as we move from one language to another even our body language. Our voice intonation changes and ugly languages have an amazing impact on us. They have their own melody they have their labyrinth day shape us. So to me it's a challenge because I did not go up bilingual malate come. I started learning show on age ten so I I compare my children compare actually they'd English with mining the consulate making fun of my mistakes. Pronounciation the fact that I can never say, squirrel. As a foreigner. You're always aware of the mind and the tongue. There's there's a gap there not synchronized your mind runs faster on the tongue trying to catch up. But I think writing in English also gave me a sense of maybe freedom sometimes being Turkish is bit heavy, and it gave me a little bit sense of lightness maybe a little bit of coordinative distance which I need needed. Just take a step back. And maybe you can't take ca closer look. I have met actually women middle class. You know, raised in a certain way who can never swear into what they can use this waning. This you know with no of killed. So it's kind of lightens them, but I'm talking about. But overall to summarize I think if there's irony satire humor in my writing. And there is always I find it easier to express them in English. But when he comes Saban, this melancholy longing Soro, I find it much easier takes Turkish, you can I just interject with aside aside. I don't if any of you've read this book by Lauren Collins, called one in French. It's very funny. But she she tells this interesting anecdote where if you ask people in their first language, if you give them this riddle, you say there's a train coming and it's about to hit a car with three people three people will die unless you throw one person in front of the train. Would you do it in people's first language? They would say, no. That's awful murders. Terrible. If you ask them in their second language. Disproportionately? They sing is Fatima. Leyla says in your book that urge encompasses all of our sorrows. Can you be more expressive and your mother tongue? It's strange, but no Arabic is my sorrowful language because I grew up in Syria. I grew up in Damascus, and that was that was the first real language. I heard and understood music in and growing up I would say to my father will you will you speak to me. And do will you teach mutant you would say, no, no, we'll do. Not your language is. Which is a provincial language. Okay. Will you speak to me? And Cindy would say no not right now. I make a lot of mistakes in it. But he spoke both beautifully. But growing up, I don't know. It's Arabic actually so wherever I am. If I hear our bec-, I feel I feel somehow it encompasses all the strange corners of language, even though today. I don't speak it very well. But it's an emotional language for me, you make the point in your book that people coming from other places and trying to be good Muslims who don't speak Arabic a tool. They pray in the language that they don't understand. But that that's true and Muslims all over the world are praying and greeting each other language not their own. But there is something beautiful about the fact that wherever you are in the world. You know? And I put in a quote that Mohammed actually said, but it's true wherever you are in the world, and you meet someone you say Salaam aleikum to them. You're immediately connected. And so there is a strangeness that we'll pray and think and talk maybe when in practice in a language that's not our own. But there is something incredibly powerful about the fact that you could be in Malaysia. And you make a connection with that language. With those words that means something to everyone who use it. I don't think there's another language or I dunno another. I mean, I don't know when Christians meet each other. Is there something that they say that they know that the identified other anyone? No, I don't think. So I think it's I think it's incredibly powerful. And it's it's something I find beautiful, especially when you're lost in the world. And you come across that. It's a moment of I dunno home. This notion of belonging of home Elif. I think you've described it as the inner division of the migrant. Can you choose where you belong? Well, you don't have such as I think when I look at my own journey. I clearly understand Woolite. I feel very touch stumble. And that's not going to change wherever I go all around the world. I will carry stumble with me. That's how I feel. But at the same time, I know I'm very attached to the Balkan stage in the military, and there's so many elements in my soul that I bring from the Middle East by birth. I was born in Europe and the values today share uphold I do consider myself a European as well over the years, I've become a London. And despite what the prime minister says, I think we can't be global soul on the world citizen about things, you know. So why not belonging smallville belongs to me if I can have multiple belongings, if someone has can have multiple longest there's a chance that we can over love can have things in common. Rather than retreating into just one choice. One identity, which is not how I feel anyhow. Is there an overarching European identity, and how to minority groups into that? I find it quite troubling. This varieties of all these populists ultra nationalist movements. Assist. We have learned nothing from his we're not talking about history up long ago it still living in living memory. We know actually what happens when ultra nationalism is on the rise when the language of hostility and hatred is on the rise. We know what happens to me. What's interesting is this extreme optimism that was prevalent in late nineteen ninety s early two thousands. And there was a lot of takeovers well with you remember we were all going to become one village. Nationalism was going to Sapir thanks to take -nology when there were uprisings in Iran was called Twitter revolution in the Arab spring started. Everyone was talking about how. Face because going to the or Qataris he will remember there was a baby named after Facebook. So as we speak. There's a young woman named Facebook in Egypt who symbolizes the optimism of the time so fast forwards here we are today. And these tribes this language of populism that claims to speak for the people, but always divides, the people because for them, there's a real people, which means there's also one hundred people the others. I mean, you remember what Trump said in one of his campaigns said the important thing is to unite the people and his second sentence was s for the other people. They don't matter. So what I'm saying is we can easily find ourselves as the other people because of the color of your skin because of your gender because you're belong to this minority that minority what because of your views, you can easily be put in that basket of the other and that is growing older oil today. Aku super journalists to come. Fiction reveal Deepa all different truth than journalism. Yes. I think I think in journalism your you are forced to take a side you're forced to at least identify aside. And and and put your chips with it. Whereas with fiction you can explore everywhere on the idea of belonging in not belonging. I think is so powerfully explored in fiction in a way you can't quite do in journalism. And especially today, I find them really uncomfortable. I find the idea of having to produce an opinion in twenty four hours on comfortable. I have the idea of certainty. I find uncomfortable. It's so much outrage journalism, some more and more. I want to retreat away from that and take time to think and to take time to to study and hear other people. I don't think that's only in fiction. I think you can do that in nonfiction. But it's it's grim to look at twenty four hour news. I influenced by the news cycle, you give them just how topical material is do. You know, when I when I was writing the runaways. I remember we thought it was topical. I was talking to publishers. We thought it was topical in two thousand fifteen then into doesn't sixteen. We were like what we'd better finish this book now because it's so topical on the exists. I think we're surrounded by these issues. They're all around us, and our sense of time is so skewed but nothing goes away nothing stops being topical. Now. One issue that's been much in the news recently is that of jihadi brides, which you mentioned earlier, particularly Shamima begam in the runaways, the leader is that you Hadid movement encourages Leyla to show her face in videos. He wants the world to see is. He puts it the quality of the women joining it wasn't just dumpy British school schoolgirls running away from home. Not just sad lonely goes looking. The husbands. You right. Is that what they are? No. But I think that's certainly an impression of what they are even to read the news about Shamima Begum with the other women. They're always described as jihadi brides as the only reason a woman exists is to be a bride. Does not the case. I think it's so much more nuanced. Of course, the leader of that movement is using Leyla because he understands the seductive pull of somebody like her of a woman who questions of a woman with the full force of her powered her hands. And I think you so that in real life you so both versions of them. There was this woman called who the Massana who was a young woman from Alabama who ran away to join ISIS, and she. You know, she she was not a silent bride. She was online. She was making videos. She was part of the propaganda movement. He was inciting people to fight and questioning their their bravery if they didn't and she was interviewed now. Now, of course, she's a widow. She's widowed. Two times married three. She wants to go home. And they asked her in an interview they said, what would you say to the American people? What would you say to country people? And she said I wish I could take it. I wish I could just erase it from people's minds. That was an incredible statement. And of course, she can't she will forever be frozen in that in that moment Elif in three daughters of eve Perry and her friends, try going to a mosque together and chased out until that there's no room in the mosque the school goals men. You right. Don't want women to be too clever or to educated. Do you think that's still the case? I think these are difficult conversations for the we want the true progress, we need to talk about this the patriarchy existing in our societies in our culture. And in the way, religion is understood and practiced and interpreted so oftentimes the mosque is regarded as a male space. I find question that unto me. It's very interesting to see I a alone. I love listening to people, and I think particularly young women today all across some of these. They are the ones that are asking the most difficult questions about. About faith. Relive the interpretation of religion about sexuality, and these are radical questions they can be. But the problem is most of these questions are asking the private space in a cafe when France Smith in the house and women come together. But those voices are needed in the public space, and that's where we lock women. So it troubles me that trouble across the majority of the Muslim world cities streets public squares belong to man, especially after certain hours, even a city like is tumble to me stumbles. A she city that's the energy after certain hours of women you walk differently. So these are the things that I think we need to talk about even though they're difficult comes. But what if we want progress there has to be honesty in conversation? I do think would say that. I think women walked in London to I don't feel safe tool in London at night. I am I'm not saying there's it's very clear in my mind that patriarch is quite universal. So actually there were moments. When I remember when I was living in a and American scholar telling me that it was very understandable for me feminist because I lived in Turkey, and I told her that I it wasn't understandable for that. She wasn't a famous because she lives in America. You know? So we have we have similar problems everywhere. But we also need to recognize that patriarch is much more intense in some parts of the world. So if I can't go on the public purse, or especially to certain without a safety pin in my hand, you know, these are things that women talk about because there's sexual harassment in Egypt in Turkey. This is part of our daily life. On the street on the bus. You know, those are the things that make a big difference in the way you carry yourself. So we have a big problem with sixes. And we have a big problem, homophobia. I think it's okay to talk about this. And we must if I cannot one within there was this Women's Day March, and by his son, but don't know if you saw it online, but it was called the aura the March, which means the women's freedom marched on it was all over the country, and it was students do speaking's in these speaking different classes on it was quite lovely to see women reclaiming public space and to walk together to March together, they dance it was really lovely see. And then obviously, they later all these men on news with so many news channels on the filled with these goals, and they were all like, this is an outrage like how can women do this? You know, there was still going on actually in bike San. I'm there is this wonderful comment. I can't remember the name of the woman. Who posted it online. But she said, yes, absolutely. You're right. Why isn't there a men's day March? Why are there not cemeteries for living people? Why are there not butcher shops vegans? Wonderful way. And I think I think that's lovely to see actually, absolutely. And the opposite of being seen wearing the veil Mona in three daughters. Vive does it as a active defiance almost such a complicated subject, especially in the case of Turkey. We have the secularism that's prevalent in Turkey is not the Anglo Saxon model is French of lay city, which is different more centralized top down. And therefore the coincidence. I in both countries, though is the headscarf debate. I was a I teach university in Turkey. And I remember there was this fun to time that prevented female students weighing headscarf from entering the university, which I always found problematic. I always criticize that because man same age with the same worldview can just enter the university and women are stopped and this is happening in a country where women already find difficult to. Come into the public space. Many of them come from very conservative families to me. It's much more important that we have -education in and you're subject to a difference of opinions and books. So that is one thing that has been lifted in Turkey that Bonn. But today, we went to the other extreme, and that's also wrong so much. So that now women were wearing miniskirts or were dressing up in a more modern way, they are the ones who are not feeling comfortable. That's also wrong. We can never find the balance. And I think, you know, not show. That's that's the biggest gap. We have in countries such as ours. Politics is very device when aggressive women who are divided you know, depending on how they dress up whether they were head scarf or not. And if we have nothing in common, in my opinion, when women are divided the only thing that benefits from that is patriarch itself. All women lose doesn't matter. Whether you're in that group this group because there are things that matters to all of us together. I mean, just recently they tried to few months ago, they tried to pass this law into the allow the rapist to have this sentence. If he agrees to marry his victim as a favor, you know, this is the mentality that we all have to fight against doesn't matter. Whether you're wearing head scarf or not, but unfortunately dot kind of women smooth, and that brings all women together and goes hand in hand with the LGBT mooned, in my opinion. But it's still looking in our region where we come from. So in a movement. I'm good questions from the floor. I though Fatima your book is called the runaways. Do you ever get to really run away from anything? I'm thinking of your own history. Here. I don't think you can run away. I think whatever you're running from fines you. But at the same time, I think there is always redemption on I think part of the struggle with the runaways that it doesn't seem to a lot of us that that redemption is afforded to everyone. You know, even again just going back to the news a lot of people who have run away and join these radical movements on that of some of them have come back. They've had no problems. They happen to be white. I don't know if you caught the interview of that young man could Jack lets, you know. He pretty much said the same thing will the women did which was that. He ran away. He believes in the system, he cheered death. When it happened far away in places like Paris and London. I didn't see anyone cooling for his citizenship. To be stripped, the home industry didn't say effective immediately. You can go back, by the way, and he's Jack lettuce a dual Canadian and British citizen. So they could have easily said that's good a Canada back where you came from. They didn't they since Shamima begums the child has died. They've stripped two more women of their British citizenship. They happen to be of South, Asian origin. I think that's part of the important. Message of the runaways to me is that redemption has to be afforded to everyone compassion actually has to be part of the conversation before mistakes, I made certainly after as well, but before the flu to questions and the last query addressed where the Fatima had any political ambition has self. I don't know how to answer that exactly because I used to think that there was a huge divide between the world of books and writing that I loved so much and the world of politics, which I also found myself drawn to from young age, and I used to believe that there was a massive Gulf between the two and a space, and I'm not so sure there is such a huge space anymore. I don't think we have the liberty really of being separate from politics. I always say that I think we we can choose the ways in which we are political. But I don't know at the moment at the moment. I'm doing it through this. But let's see what happens you've been listening to meet the writers live from don't books festival in Malabon leave. She FOX three daughters of eve is published by penguin and her new book, ten minutes thirty eight seconds in the strange world is you out in early June Fatima Bhutto's the runaways is published by Viking and his out. Now. Thank you to don't books for wonderful live event to the very engaged live audience unto the monocle staff engineers, including George mcdonagh and Christie Evans. I'm Georgina Godwin do subscribe to meet the writers for free online or through are up for more episodes like this in your letterbox and watch out for interviews with both Elif and Fatima coming soon. Thank you for listening.
Little Atoms 610 - Fatima Bhutto's New Kings of the World
"This Week Fatima Bhutto returns with dispatches from Bollywood Dizzy and capable in latest book new kings of the world they says little atoms a radio show about ideas and coacher with me Nail Denny and that has certain implications I think also in culture and then lastly American well any soft power has to be believable in order for it to be affected what's the end of the American Century and the rise of competing cultural industries coming from Asia coming from India from Turkey and music let's say I think the second factor is that is that migration you know we talk so much today about migration and people moving into other countries but actually communities riches movement for everybody and of course that didn't happen if you already had opportunity wealth and movement you had more of it indefens- complex today is the is the period with the lowest presence of American military bases around the world but that was obviously not anyway but he talked about how often that was attached to military power yes it's spread really partially through the the basis through the American example when the Americans were in career after the war it was in the basis that young Korean musicians would come and play rock and roll because there was nowhere else but if you didn't you you basically buried under the system so a lot of people hundreds of millions of people who left their homes and villages and moved to the cities found themselves first of all globalization was a promise that turned out not to be true so the world has promised with globalization with the movement of capital would common credible the most migrants are moving internally the going from villages to cities than crossing borders that brings with it a lot of turbulence a lot of uncertainty a lot of shock in Korea the time that would allow them to the favourite music was quite stodgy and it was you know belong to an older generation if you wanted to play rock and roll if you wanted to play the electric guitar and you need not focus too much on its imperial designs or because you believe the story of America so you could sit down and watch a movie of the story of America Syria Pakistan she is the author of five previous books of fiction nonfiction debut novel the shadow of the question was long listed for the baileys women's you've and whatever one thinks of American power and the Brute Force of American power when Obama was the face of that power it had veneer over that was sophisticated and glossy and cultural designs are innocent or that they don't come with certain agendas politics behind it of course they do but with any recent to those stories to me but when the face of that power is trump for Mike Pence or Richard Spencer will then it's then it's harder but also the way but of course the reality across much of the world is while a more conservative society a solidly Middle Class Society that's Korea so that the original spread of American soft power would you be coach popular show which away but we know too much about America I think that allows us to ask certain things that we are not ready to ask about Turkey or India let's say Tom has changed what sort of caused in general around the world the sort of pushback I think there's several factors I would say the drift and on ward those people are not represented in American pop culture they don't see their stories of their struggles brations in Hollywood films you know or American well in a body would always served as a mirror for India I think it's a pretty faithful mirror so it's reflected the politics and societal who in the nineteen sixties and nineteen fifties you had enormous numbers of troops of vases and from there you had American culture pushed out so the case of Korea is voted by not just corruption the knowledge of of a very powerful central state that can decide who gets justice who doesn't all I think generally we come to culture innocently where we sit down to watch a movie or read a book we're not suspicious of WHO's brought it to us and why we want to be entertained changes and movements of its time so if you look at the early Bollywood films of the nineteen forties and fifties they were filled with idealism they were about the birth of her not necessarily saying that reflected in the ball he has I mean I think that's to say that it's not that Indian or Turkish Korean the American basis that would have you there were troops that needed to be entertained so be on the less American military bases of the Lord our world in Bollywood these in Cabo Mac thank you for having me back we'll see how did on this one this is a narrative nonfiction look open new nationhood and a certain justice and brotherhood that was the beginning of course of independent India and by the nineteen seventies that dream is prize for fiction and memoir about life and as as a nation sons of broaden soap was published to acclaim most recent book the runaways which said certain traditional signs and symbolism that will not change no matter the decades so your hero today may drive a Ferrari because life is not built on happy endings the hero may die the were usually they don't have that tyranny of positivity that that Hollywood has upper class Indian with access not just to consumer plenty but also international plenty so maybe he lives in London maybe he summers Janie sation between a priest supplicant so then he comes from that it's it's born out of the court in the performances of the court and that remains in the films leave your country was to pollute your your spiritual standing you lost a certain part of your your identity by crossing the Blackwater Justice who is allowed to live in a highrise who sleeps on the footpath and the movies reflect on the nineties are of course neoliberal and I think this changes in a way the vastly different threats specifically talking about that idea of Bollywood's people also be familiar with the lar- ever going to attempt at say there is singing there is movement there is a lot more noise is not it's not a silent that's unser quite different of course than the singing and the dancing as you mentioned but I I don't think it comes from Kitsch I think it comes from cultural expressions so if the secret of the dancing but one of the ways is your average bollywood federal traditionally different from your average Hollywood national corporates Titan so that changes and it's it's reflected in the films it's very interesting because compared to Turkey Papa Ganda that quite ugly communal again too but how they are different is that there are stories essentially centered around the family they'll stories in which there was American culture also happened over the years with the change in Bollywood considered a minute but let's talk about body would obviously Indian cinema he's never a poor man he's never a homeless man which by the way was true in the seventy s you did have heroes who lived in villages they may wear bellboys and may have a girlfriend but when his mother walks in the room he touches her feet so those things remain but they are not stories that have happy endings necessarily Bollywood first of all our chains described about how people are not necessarily any longer save themselves reflective and that's quite unique I'm not sure you can do the same is true of Hollywood necessarily but NYDIA quickly and today of course Bollywood films are I mean to me on watchable digits they lived in the village and they respected the village and its traditions today the hero what is not a diet he's not a minority he's essentially an upper because the American media's image of somewhere like around us and thank you the Great Satan of American popular coach and there's the divide Turkish dizzy or as they call the TV shows will be set in Turkey they will not be set in Switzerland and London there's today in the same way the the people of India or sort of listen to the sirens capitalism from the countryside an area of exile and then as you said the silence of capitalism near Liberal demands now mean that actually crossing the blackwoods of examine you are India somebody here who has migrated Brown we'll see him with some suspicion yes it's changed to sleep because of course to to leave confidence and that confidence allows it to move quite freely between the space it occupies whereas India in terms of Bollywood now has that's basically as Bollywood films out there is no there's no sort of respect in the took who leaves his country the way Bollywood film has grown to have that and I always to produce because I think that actually if we look at the Turkish project the Korean project it's got an upward trajectory that's built on a sudden kind uh you see the same thing in Bollywood so what's changed hugely is that the hero of Louisville today is never a farmer but is bound by a traditional values you mentioned that the international and in the past box of the Anno Domini in writing this book today I wouldn't have included buddy when I started writing the book in Two Thousand Sixteen and so I did I think there are certain things you cannot say I think there are certain things that are now considered incorrect door anti-national or against the grain and I think the moment you do that to culture you lose it you talk about K. pop music one of the Dutch actor is how oh you math not long ago Latins today we're going to be talked about Fatima's ladies work of nonfiction which is the new kings of the world these parties also the change in the structure of the things the Bollywood film has has changed you mentioned as become propaganda with the rise of the right three and they have enormous enormous fan followings I went to Peru to talk about the this subculture of Peruvian Inca background and then the White Peruvians who come from that Spanish ancestry or Italian ancestry and I didn't meet a single body found who was white if traditional food from their villages their made they've made fun of the language used is always pejorative about indigenous people but Bollywood offer not only people who look like them physically but people who are modern and traditional people who existed in the modern world but wore native dress spoke native languages on the Forbes list I mean even the other hands on Forbes lists they consistently in the top five of those kind of lists if not the in Africa in Nigeria and Kenya Shahrukh Khan when I interviewed told me there is a small group of elderly German ladies who follow him every single place he goes they don't bother him they just watch him and love him and and the reasoning that they told or at least Germans have told and why well the way they explained it to me in Peru is that there's quite a big divide between the indigenous Peruvian who have broke that they feel their society so stiff-lipped or tightly wound that Bollywood allows them to express themselves in a way that they feel liberated Surin Estan Bull I said do you have a film outside he's would be we've got everything here and that idea has been absent in India for thirty years at least they were all indigenous and what they said to me is that they feel ashamed they feel put down they don't feel they can weather native dress on the streets of Lima they feel that if they eat the name all the time and he didn't think he did actually grow yeah exactly he's played a couple of Rogers to that's what he said half crossed over into into Western vote my day however Sean New Party is one of the vicious film stars in the world go back to the cons I think few places on earth that they would not be recognized weirdly Bollywood films very big in in between days and g you to buy into Shahrukh Khan and share my difference of any of these three certain population of the Global World let's say on the rest of that population is quite invisible and lives in subterranean kind of conditions that are quite harsh mainly indigenous Peruvians who don't speak English you come from the Highlands and migrate into the cities and they are door Shirakawa or someone on your home is aviation and then it's a caricature of globalization so we'd is international hub of sorts of travel business of commerce but at the same time it only caters followed native traditions that was very meaningful to them in a way that it wouldn't have bean to prove into Spanish ancestry retaliate ancestry let's say but until I met him at the pilots over Satchi which is not something you would imagine belongs in divide and he was there to shoot an Egyptian changes so quickly it's up to the second you're constantly updating yourself culture if I was reading the book in two thousand nine thousand nine hundred sixty I wouldn't have included with that that I've also played writers and I thought okay well I headed list I had sort of spreadsheet that I when I watched Sarah Films content every film he cried in every film I concert every film he had the same name in every film he dive every film he doesn't get the go he loves it and it's pretty consistent weirdly what was that interview line it's pretty much about the claims a child who may be limited the last day of Saturday the pump capable but bollywood one of the same name that's just the same character I it's very strange because it follows yeah I mean how much and Raj with great stars of the day played a lot of roles with the same names I asked Shirakawa he played the same character eh looking face as cracks recognized a couple of the web couldn't tell you any films they've been in they're not stars settles. I mean you told issue I wanNA talk to you about with one of the stars by the this week man with a big stars we'll have to wait countries by is to buy unusual place because it encompasses global and so it really was this hodgepodge of different people on in the same place and it was bizarre. It was bizarre to see how all these people connected in the connected thank show for a essentially saudi-owned television company and the crew of the shoot were Lebanese Tunisia in Moroccan and Jerry uh-huh arrests executions floggings and what happened at that time is that incredibly nuance television serials started humidity long on average they come with their original scores with as many as fifty characters in a show they'll set across histories there are many Ottoman Sultan epics and at the same time that will be epochs about women prison today in Turkey eighties when Pakistan was under its darkest Arab dictatorship under the backed General Zia ul Haq who brutalized society through my censorship air on state television they're they're not never ending the maybe ten episodes of twenty episodes written in very beautiful poetic were rose and they've been going for quite a while not a new project they've obviously existed in Turkey for a very long time but they broke out essentially through the Middle East on works of literature very respected works of literature adapted for the screen and today the talks a second only to the Americans in terms of very interesting case because Bison has a very rich history when it comes to television theater on the periods it's is at its brightest in the nineteen seventies and was about the gang rape of a young woman a young woman by several rich man so they're quite hefty this subject a lot of them are based on Oh by television distribution that surprised me actually I I didn't really know very much about it before writing the book Netflix search and they're absolutely is growing and growing Netflix even producing its own original disease the not just buying the shows that are making the yeah you acted by proper theater professionals and they tackled the issues of the day they tackled feudalism tackled that is a spread today they're the biggest century everywhere except the English speaking world let's just take a step back and I wanNA talk about the attempted suppression it happened one go and the early two thousands that few shows massive attention across the Middle East and from daily Roll Pervez Musharraf there was an opening up of private television channels and media outlets so television licences became quite cheap became not injustice and they did it in such a way that it was almost impossible to catch them insensitive of course they tried but they really flourished they cover quite serious issues such as honor abuse one of the most popular dizzy show called Fath- moghul essentially what is fuck moguls moral and ethical crises they are a blend of tradition and modernity in a way that is I think done with mobility than buddy that period and even traveled outside of Kasane very popular in India and have always been popularly do and beyond and under another dictator some decades later back just as it was picking up steam by some gets hit with Turkish dizzy and the reason part of the reason of these excess is that if you are let's say Lithuania the wildfire to the point that television channels stopping original programming throwing it off midair midseason and putting Turkish shows on you're listening to the Latins Aid Fatima Bhutto we took it a new work of nonfiction new kings of the world these patches were Bollywood it's cheaper for your station to buy existing took a show that to make Lithuania drama buying the rights so that happens in bags on again uh what is well they're essentially what we think of a soap operas except that there are two they are two hours and in flag there will always be patriotic slogans a man who also now more so now much more so now but always consistently anyone live episodes trying to figure out who's love is forbidden because everyone's love looks forbidden and the couple of the forbidden love boat still episode I don't know thirty and every would might be so they don't Donald Trains but you know there's a show called forbidden love giving anything away here to say that you spend at least because the maternity is not a mimicry of the west necessarily but it's a Turkish version of of that modernity in Bollywood you might hear a lot of English so foreign business it fractures it fracture something society and all these countries we know from watching near liberal reform four businessmen to to buy them people did and you need something to put on TV so the work of cereals again kicks off and you have a lot of original programming combat it drives a lot of what we're seeing today I said earlier I wouldn't have included India if I was reading the book today I would have included China instead because they're going to be the most ferocious they had some trains unfortunately thought they are they are bound by conservative values in the same way that same time and it's approximately at that time that these industries ramp up and go into a different gear Korea might be the more interesting version was put in place that it disenfranchises populations hugely again who benefits is a small lead all these countries go through this approximately surjit of our some in Pakistan to the point where the Turkish he started to pay yes I mean but but the talks really came through in a big way and partly they come through for the reason that these are shows again centered around the family the centered around flags no snow clearing but they're very nationalistic shows it just more nuanced I think but at the same time the the judge in Pakistan just before those coming there was also political changes in Turkey which enabled this to happen what happened well. What's what connects all three of these spaces act? I think they're going to be the most aggressive when it comes to push culture out and it's only beginning you mentioned that Turkish television producers diamonds look to the accident walks into a government office or school or and the speech end with a sort of patriotic kind of ending in the Tokyo shows right here what we call mingle ish or English smattering you will hear nothing but Tukish in Turkish shows they're very proud shows is to produce more has to sell more and it's not enough to just work within your own borders now you must conquer the world and I think it drives a lot of what we're seeing today with it it spray painted all over the place and I asked one of the art directors instead of you done this and he said no people just caught only themselves now and the day I was visiting into the pit and it's essentially adaptation of the Godfather but sets in an Istanbul ghetto and it's the story of a family I mean down to there's a brother like Fredo they all undergo neoliberal reforms at the same time on what those neoliberal reforms do is in opening up their markets to essentially American business ah because they really run the same with with Turkey Turkey opens up in a certain way it has now new demands new demands of the market double ballot and they renovated some of the interiors they pay the locals to act as extras and they film on the road obvious distillation of Western Paul yes it is it's it's capable is produced in a ruthless manner produced more like a multinational company how Pepsi's produced is how capable produced and what they do is quite ingenious they call it localization on what that means is that they will take music you are basically familiar with Western pop and dance and they will career is it will blow Kalis it and they do that firstly by by speeding it up which is what makes it these cable up and move on to Turkey that we'll talk about deasy yes that's where boating told many times and right the music the choreographers are foreigners again Americans or Europeans the music video directors will be deep fair the baggage that is pretty hard they fought back and and they have made some very popular television dramas and they'll net flicks too by the way now words what they mean and then the the songwriters of k pop bands are essentially all foreigners initially it was a lot of Swedes now it's a lot of American the producers of this show and they're just one of the two biggest the two huge production houses and token there produced by one of them they took over this neighborhood and see but your hero will never fire a gun he will not be violent I think that's quite fascinating industry especially in the ultraviolet world we live in today and what they did is they energy procedures you won't really have a chance to say no to most of them you'll be talk Rian if you don't speak Korean probably you might even be taught Japanese let's say daisy which obviously take it forms artistic forms from the West and turn them into their own cake up it's much more a singer no one will hear you for five years and five years you will take singing lessons dance lessons elocution lessons you may be asked to do certain plastics you just singing in Mandarin once you've gone through your five years of training you know have to pay back what the studio has invested in you and that might be anywhere from three hundred because Korean bands have sub units so that would be like having the Jackson five and then the Jackson Five Mandarin which would be a totally new set of people visit a two hour long so so they are still bound by a set of conservative values and the other thing that's quite interesting to me is a bollywood film there will always be an and wants to do very famously operates by Bible that they called CT which stands for cultural technology not allowed outside the officers no one can see it if the uh-huh Asian Switzerland bill and tend to work in studios to have done Donte and unhappy and second Korean unlike Japanese or Mandarin this as a Slavic language that's why it's easy for us to sing along even though we don't is that there was a a Chinese stringer from news agency reporting that were tourists with their inner selfie sticks taking pictures near the actor so you signed up to be a capable artist you would be moved immediately to Seoul on the new would be put through at least minimum of five years of training so you might be the world's greatest ars and it works actually it does worry if you look at the the most watched music videos on youtube something like six out of ten are capable deals a people neronha listening to Cape by interviewed a girl in Palestine sitting at home with bad internet connections listening to our favorite band you mentioned it's produced briefly describing to the the star of the idols there's the father like the corleones there's of course the son like Michael doing something accepts he's never got exactly that's one of the rules and I'm what was quite interesting that there's a there's a sign there's a sort of graffiti sign that represents these warring factions in the show and when you walk through this I please do subscribe rates Junes and even tell a friend thanks for listening own back nothing really from your album or your endorsements onto paid back the money you might percentage muttering twenty percent of that would be on offer different things in different reasons but all in a slightly hysterical way that I took it about new kings of the world dispatches from Bollywood and capable which avenue seven dollars to five hundred thousand dollars so when you're released as debut singer let's assume Cape Bad with cold little atoms you would then movements down to applauds they should wear and it's incredibly regimented there's not a lot of second chances you fairly failure out you don't get Turkey I would say are you interested in remaking and they would look at me black of why would we be make anything American but just making originals very happy with come back with another album and hope for forgiveness tour just to finish is often Priya's pretty much full circle you mentioned the Turkeys practitioners of this so stay with US nation by signed up to be a capable artist what happens club pulse thanks Communica thank you for having me this episode of little atoms produced and presented by me Nail Denny Ed work on its explains how to launch a band in different territories down to what I shatter they should use down to yes it wasn't actually someone who hadn't worked on that show but it was a screen writer and he was approached by a right wing American think tank the female centric dizzy about an American who comes and has great intentions on save the world and he wrote it but nobody would and that I heard that repeatedly by Sky Redmond and was first broadcast mezzanines one I four point four FM let Latins is supported by eight tonight up and hosted by cast if you enjoyed the never know what actually if I can recommend a show I would recommend that show it's called sugar which Turks just a little about okay pop before we finish more than cinema and stay American team can often the job of writing show that would show American soft power again sympathetically in fact Mongo ago it was raining and what are the juices of the show the rights was approached by a writer straight and the hands and you actually win visited sets of a remake of the Godfather River.
The Truth About the U.S. War in Afghanistan
"From foreign policy. I'm Sarah Waldman and this is first person this week. The truth about the war in Afghanistan earlier this month. The Washington Post published a trove of official documents that suggests successive. US administrations misled the public about the war Afghanistan. There hasn't been a lot of progress since two thousand one after all girls are back in school in pursuit of our Corrigo. We we are seeing significant. Progress made tremendous progress. The papers were part of an internal review conducted by the US government. They included candid interviews news with both officials and generals who helped prosecute the war one of the first quotes at leaped out at me was from army. Lieutenant General Doug Lute he was the Afghan wars are in the White House for both Bush and Obama and he said we didn't have the foggiest notion of what we were undertaking in Afghanistan. We didn't know what we were doing you. He said twenty four hundred lives lost where they lost in vain. The United States invaded Afghanistan in late. Two thousand one after the attacks of September eleventh understand the genesis if that war I spoke with Hussein Connie who served as Pakistan's ambassador to the United States from two thousand eight to twenty eleven our interviews first aired in February of this here. Okay so we're going to try and get the whole picture of Coniston. What do you think I can I can do it? In thirty seconds. Americans know nothing about Afghanistan. They've been trying to understand it and they haven't succeeded so it's time time for them to come home good less than thirty seconds really good all right so first of all. Thank you for coming in pleasure being Kim. I'm actually curious before we even start. Where did you grow up? Could argue bucket son Tommy and tiny bit about your childhood. Well I mean. I wasn't born to a very rich or prosperous family My family were immigrants from India Pakistan partition of the subcontinent. They were housed in these British military barracks which had been transformed into temporary housing for families a fresh veggies. Today's speaker partition growing up. Oh yeah everybody's book about partition partition. Was it a trauma carried or yeah I mean my father was somebody who never wanted partition and didn't want to move to Buxton. My mother was somebody who believed in Bahrain and Shen and wanted to move to Pakistan so therefore we had a lot of kitchen table Debate about whether the party should have been something. I think that has stayed with me. A- An intellectual level. Even to this day how right now people in Buxton don't want to think of what might have been if there had been no oh partition and people in India always sort of think about the people who created Pakistan. Are the ones responsible for partition from my own childhood childhood debates. I understand that there was a far more complex situation at that time and that they could have been ways in which it could have been avoided. I'm curious how that affects affects how you perceive the relationship between Pakistan Afghanistan on the Taliban and one of the things that's remarkable but the Taliban is that over the last eighteen years the the Taliban is hung on and if anything they've gone stronger. Where does the relationship begins between Pakistan and tally first of all one has to understand what the issue is is on the part of Pakistan that makes interested in Afghanistan Pakistan as people don't always understand is a new country There was no Pakistan in history. The the name Pakistan is an acronym that was contrived by students Muslim students from the subcontinent Cambridge University in the late thirties. So the very idea Pakistan is no more than eight years old and the country is no more than seventy seventy one years old that said because Pakistan choose to be a western ally in the Cold War it got got a lot of benefit from American and European support of Aniston on the other hand because it was a neighbor of the Soviet Union from inception. Older country just didn't get involved in the Cold War and then of course. American awareness of Ghanistan goes only as far back as the Soviet invasion of nineteen. Seventy nine for of guns and what is today. Pakistan comprises a large tract of territory. That was historic Stan. And that was sticking by the British and eighteen ninety-three resentment and more important than resentment is a feeling that The Durand Line the border between Pakistan Afghanistan today divided ethnicity that Bush dunes do I did tribes. Do I cleanse so pucks constantly have always had a relatively open the border The hundreds of points of crossing etcetera. That was taken advantage off by the United States and everybody else who supported them which I then against the Soviets at the Mujahideen were of guns who were essentially people who resented communistic of Ghanistan came to Buxton got recruited trained etc Pakistan. Had A different goal than America did and other countries did in the war against the Soviets everybody else was interested in Soviet. I leaving Afghanistan Bucks was interested in ensuring that whatever succeeded the Soviet occupation was so behold into Pakistan that they would never question the Durand Line and the 1893 loss of territory until Pakistan ended up supporting some of the most hardline fundamentalist groups because they were closer to Pakistan's military and intelligence services then the more secular or pro-soviet all for that matter Less religiously stringent groups. When the Soviets left civil war broke out of Ghanistan Pakistan supported? The hardliners has situation went out of control the US Raju from the region took no interest in the civil war Pakistan decided to support this group called the the Taliban which was basically those hidden who were not willing to listen to their leaders and so punks John was present at the creation of the Taliban. The Taliban have almost always had a very strong relationship with Pakistan security services who has ever supported the Taliban accept them and for on Pakistan's point of view who else has supported Pakistan's would we want Afganistan that have gone should actually consider Pakistan in religious terms as Islamic country rather than as the country that deprives traditional of of their historic homeland part of their historic dot com. Land that is where the differences comes to the Taliban have consistently been supported from Pakistan. The the reason why. The Taliban are strong is because President Bush's comment made a big mistake. The Bush administration defined their job in Afghanistan. Very Natalie. The thought that their job was just getting rid of either before you get to President Bush and we're talking about George W W motion take us. I in nine eleven. How did Pakistan view the attacks on nine eleven but first of all we must understand that? There's a difference between how Pakistan Gaston security services view something and how the people of Pakistan something The people of Pakistan have one hundred views but the specs in security services have only one objective suggest to try and be equal in part to India. That's the historic goal. So the way this nine eleven was that it disrupted their little plan. They had installed the Taliban in par of Ghanistan the Mujahideen groups at all fallen by the wayside. The Taliban were so beholden to Pakistan. That now there was no question that any tune in Afghanistan will ever question the border or even Pakistan's right to dictate to Afghanistan. That was disrupted by nine eleven because now the Americans got involved until another superpower as well not only that not only that it's Pakistan's ambitions have been taught it the the Pakistani ambition of having a Afghanistan that is beholden completely to Pakistan because I've gone assigned his landlocked Pakistan. Is the the only access to the sea. Box is bigger much stronger. Military much more connected with the rest of the world suboxone could dictate to Afghanistan. And now if America's GonNa to come and install a new regime in Afghanistan that regime will not be beholden to Pakistan has has been the case so therefore all the Taliban leaders evacuated and we found out many years later in two thousand eleven And been other than was founded buck Sunday draws on just the Taliban leaders even some other leaders ended up in Pakistan. Where were you on nine eleven? I was in Pakistan. I was ironically. I was about to leave his llamas for Karachi on a flight in which on both sides I had to former Pakistan intelligence chief sitting in coach class on a light throws Lama but to Karachi the flight got cancelled in the nine eleven news game and so I had to stay the night in Islamabad before going on to Karachi. What was the reaction like in the airport that day mode important than the reaction of the general public? I'll tell you what the to no intelligence chiefs and they thought that the Americans had been taught a lesson and so it was interesting Because I was of course one one of those who taught that no this is going to become a lesson for global terrorism America will retaliate and will react bucks. Any public. Opinion has often been very anti-american American. So half of Foxton population was probably anti-american but there are also a lot of people like myself who resented the Jihadi extremists and terrorists. In fact within a couple of days of nine eleven I wrote an op Ed that appeared in the New York Times and which I made this argument that Pakistan me now have to choose friendship with the United States or continued support of the jihadis unfortunately eighteen years. I have the feeling that they really never ever had. Because the Americans allowed them the opportunity to carry on support for the jihadis wiping America's allies. Let's go into that a little further because Pakistan nominally was US ally as a US enters into this conflict but at the same time they have their own interests in Afghanistan. John can you explain that difference so for one thing. Pakistan had a military dictatorship at the time General Pervez Musharraf was in charge and the American sort of the old habit of trying to find you. You know what FDR used to say about Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua that he's my he's sob but he's my sob. So all of a sudden Americans thought. Okay Sheriff who was by the way at that time. Pariah and the Americans had thought that he he had toppled the civilian elected democratic government. Be He had been responsible for the war with India just a few months before his takeover and see hypoxia. John was not conforming to American expectations in relation to its nuclear program so Pakistan within the sanctions before nine eleven and after nine eleven eleven which turns around and says okay. What you need what you need help you and the Americans if we found out SOB so we should have helped the US in finding several alka figures? A lot of people who ended up in Guantanamo were found by Pakistan's intelligence service but he never dealt a final blow to the Jihadi groups that Pakistan itself had created for influence in Afghanistan that just Afghan Taliban Taliban and then these various jihadi groups that were waging war in a indian-controlled parts of Kashmir and even in India so soon after nine eleven when there was an attack on India's parliament which caused a lot of friction between India and Pakistan and the US decided to tilt in favor of Pakistan to try and tell India not to react act and the Americans would somehow bring stability. The Pakistani game continued well until two thousand and six before the US reacted between Immediately after nine eleven and two thousand six the American policy seemed to be to say the Taliban are not enemy enemy. Al Qaeda and Pakistan is helping us with al Qaeda but by two thousand six al Qaeda number twos threes They won't any left oft for Buxton tourist and handle to the Americans and lots of intelligent started coming of how the Taliban had regrouped in Pakistan and had had now started attacking American troops in honest son so Pakistan was now seen as both being American ally helping America in certain ways but also helping America's enemies the Taliban attack Americans in Afghanistan. How is that support provided to the Taliban don well the Taliban were equipped trained and host in Pakistan? And I think there's plenty of evidence of that I mean right now. The president off the United States is kind of set his goals as drawing from Afghanistan. So he doesn't want to be attention to any of that but if you remember he himself pointed out out that All evidence was that the Taliban would not have been the first became if they did not have a safe haven across the border in Pakistan. Go ahead to two thousand eight e become the ambassador to Washington and at that point what were the most challenging aspects of your job. What was the tension between Pakistan and the US so let me back up a little in two thousand and two? I came to the United States and I came here to Krista the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and then to be a professor of international relations in Boston University and the reason was that I had been a fervent critic off gentleman sheriff and his dictatorship so it became difficult for me to stay in Pakistan. John and I came into a life exactly Musharraf as you know had massive public uprising against him in two thousand seven hundred thousand. Nate new elections were held the civilian government that was elected asked me to become ambassador. Were already based here. I was already in the United States. I literally moved from Boston to Washington. DC to become ambassador rather than moving from Islamabad to Washington at that shifts. Your Life. I mean had you liked being civilian and just teaching young. Actually with hindsight site probably would be better off remaining a civilian because I found myself in the vortex of a lot of controversies after became investor. Of course those who criticise me would argue that you know the fact that I had lived in exile for a few years and made me predisposed to seeing things from an American I who wear as I saw it as being being a little bit more objective I understood what the weaknesses in the Pakistani position. If we were going to build a democracy in Pakistan Pakistan could not be a democracy see and be home to Jihadi terrorist both at the same time. How did they entice you back? Then I mean it seems like you'd have a nice live in Boston but The civilian civilian leadership. I was very close to them in the Bhutto as our our leader and she used to meet regularly. I met regularly. We talked about it so we were the way I saw it. We had an opportunity with Musharraf. Gone the military being prepared to seat bar to the civilians. We could actually build a viable modern democracy in Pakistan and then Benazir Bhutto had been killed as you know and when she was skilled husband husband who became president had kind of an emotional advantage in asking me. You know what I know that you're going to give up a comfortable life as is a professor in the US but this is some very you would be effective and useful environment to become ambassador. And then on the American side. They were a lot of people who said to me. Hey you it would be a good interlocutor to have a life for you. Input killed though. I mean we learn French was extremely traumatic and I felt immense sense of responsibility not Because she had young Children Home v knew very well ask family and because she didn't also have to go back. Doc I mean she could have said. I've been prime minister twice. I'm going to live comfortably abroad. She also went from a sense of duty. Where were you when she was killed built in Boston? And how did you hear about it. Somebody called me actually. I was sleeping early in the morning. Eastern time the phone rang. I answered the phone. Oh my wife had gone to bacchus the Sun She ran for parliament and became a member of parliament. So somebody called me and said done on CNN and done on CNN and the news was so I called my wife who was crying and willink she was at the hospital. been had been brought after that fateful attack one up and so that was partly dri back in that drew me back in and secondly look if it wanted to do something important and something historic then you have to give up some comfort and then in twenty eleven year involved in something that came to be called memo gate. Memo Gate was a label that was invented in Pakistan for something that will not a total fabrication After the whole bin Laden raid a a lot of questions raised about Paxton's conduct as to why Pakistan had bin Laden and the Pakistani military and intelligence services that didn't like my guts anyway because I had already written a book that was published a few years earlier titled Pakistan Between Mosque and military in which I had pointed out that the reason why Pakistan has religious extremists because is the military actually cultivates them for regional political influence so the militant and the intelligence services didn't like me but after the bin Laden raid taught our. We need a scapegoat. We need somebody to blame for why the Americans were able to find bin Laden without us being able to find find him. I didn't want to answer the question. Why was Bin Laden there in the first place there? People doubt that Pakistan didn't know absolutely. I'm one of them so they decided they needed a distraction and in this environment apex American businessmen who lived in Monaco. If I'm not mistaken came up with this allegation that I had asked him to deliver a memo on behalf of the civilian government to Admiral Mullen. Who was the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and add had the MEMEL promised certain concessions to the US if the US helped the Pakistani civilians got the military down to site now the catch all of this is that while there's nothing wrong with the civilian government asserting authority over the military suggesting that a foreign country's military put pressure on the military of your own country. Cut them down to size was rock. I had nothing to with that. Memo the editor of Pakistan's as was quoted in the Guardian is calling it a slow moving coop. Yes exactly so. It was essentially an attempt to weaken can the civilian government by accusing it of seeking American military support against Pakistan's military nine bucks in the military is respected and admired. It's ruled the country for more than half its life. If and even those who don't admire it gone bad mouth even though it's a very politicized institution so it was an attempt to cut civilians downsize. This and eventually I went back to try and answer. The questions of Cassandra went to Pakistan to do that. I was told not to leave the country so I was stuck there for about three months but eventually they had to let me go because they hadn't charged with anything they have no criminal proceedings that participate in. So how long Jonquet just sit there waiting for. Where were you during so during that time I was protected by the civilian leadership of the country? I I was in the president's residents and when he became ill and had to travel abroad. The prime minister kept me in the Prime Minister's House. I was virtually ended attention in the sense that I couldn't leave. Ah premises but I was physically protected against the military to unique situation and the civilian government supported me in my position and my right to actually have all the legal protections that I was entitled to and the military and the intelligence services joining with the hardest line elements of Pakistan's media saying some treason has has been committed. This man you know. Let's just hang him and have a try litter but to actually. I was allowed to leave the country and I haven't done. Since but in January there was an arrest warrant issued Free Cassini coats issue what are known as political arrest warrants pretty frequently and the international community has now figured that out so these are centered around and they tried to get entry turnball turns them down and foreign countries. Turn them down routinely because it's now become such a sad practice it was done against Benazir Bhutto been done against which really every Pakistani political figure of any consequence. Do you live in fear I don't think so I am not easily terrified. So that's one part. The other part is that When has to say what one has to say? I mean what what's going to happen open I don't think that any international court is ever going to on a any of these allegations. These are primarily designed. Do keep the box tiny population from taking some of my writings. And my criticisms cicely lost your country as a result earliest temporarily emperor. Yeah but I'm not the only one I think the people who live there also lost family in Pakistan. I have extended family. That your wife is here. Oh now my wife and children. I want to circle US backed Afghanistan president. Trump's made it clear he wants out of Afghanistan sent will what's the endgame well. I don't think president trump has an endgame. I think he wants out and he wants out and There are people who measure military intervention mentioned by years. And those who do that say. Hey you've been there seventeen years time to come out. My point is that military intervention should always be measured against goose. Bruce what did you go for and to accomplish it or not and if you did not why not. It shouldn't be measured in time in terms of what you ended there. Therefore you went there. Because the United States was attacked on nine eleven of Coniston had become a safe haven for al Qaeda and other Islamist extremists. Jihadi the groups the idea after that was to try and make sure that of Ghanistan image it environment doesn't become a safe haven for global terrorism. They're the US went wrong. Was the Bush administration's mistake of completely trust in General Musharraf in ensuring that the Aja the groups are eliminated on the puck sunny site. So while of Vannes Stan was rebuilding. You ended up having the Taliban reorganized and become a nuisance and sort of CONISTON. Then President Obama made a huge mistake off the so-called surgeon of Ghanistan to fight the Taliban but at the same time announced the data for the vitriol as what that did was it hit the Taliban and Pakistan's supported them game. How Long America will be there the Taliban had a maxim that Milomar who was the founder of the Taliban used to say that the Americans Have Watches v half the time and basically when President Obama announced that there will be a scheduled withdrawal tied to the surge all all they did was told the Taliban to sit in their sort of funeral safe havens envied for the American withdrawal when that withdrawal didn't come the Taliban undecided to increase the heat which has now deserted and president trump. I sing who will stay as long as we need to. But now saying we are in a hurry to withdraw so in every way you look at it basically the US has not really put up the fight that should have been put up to succeed has US lost. I don't think the US has lost. I think the US has allowed the others to be able to proclaim victory by not putting up a fight Nothing has ever been done to deal with the constant back and forth of Taliban and their supplies applies from the Pakistani side of Weinstein's own government has been allowed to go in every which direction the US spent too much money on Afghanistan. We twelve necessary. I'll give you an example When I was invested I learned that there were several studies that were taking taking place here about these standards at which of public schools and I said to somebody in the the US gunman how many do these studies cost? And there's a couple of hundred thousand dollars for somebody doing a study and I said what are these studies about. You're trying trying to figure out whether schools in Ghana Stan should be more like New Jersey. Schools are Maryland schools. Something why don't you understand. You know Ghanistan. Based on before the Soviets game a decent school was a roof. A blackboard some chock a teacher and some books. Why can't we do that so when people here complain that Oh God the US visted and spent too much money in done around to them and say you didn't didn't have to you did that because that's where you make your decisions? It's not the port of this for. You could have done it all at much less cost. And so what has happened now is that. Nobody's thinking about the ordinal reason for going into Afghanistan. What if he come out? The government in Afghanistan is unable to fight the Taliban the Taliban regained control of most. If not all of his son and end the various global jihadi terrorist groups three congregate not because of any other reason but because it logically they and the the Taliban have much more in common and will be welcomed much more easily than they would be in a country where the government really runs and extremists. He misses from another country are really not allowed to set up right now. The US has created a framework agreement with the Taliban but Afghan government has said. It won't participate participate. But I what is the framework agreement. The framework agreement is essentially That the US would draw injured done for a week. Taleban Bon promise that they will not support international jihadi terrorist groups but the Taliban themselves that an international terrorist group. They've attacked Americans have attacked attack. The American embassy more than once attacked Germans French British Canadians. Australians I can't understand how dare I promise that they will not allow or Isis to come back into Havana. Stan and be considered worth the paper. It's written aunts. I really really don't see. There's a framework agreement. All I see is a promise for those who just really want out so that they can use it as a fig-leaf Gli forgetting out. What is the legacy of the? US's seventeen eighteen years in Afghanistan. Oh there's a lot of positive legacy I mean a lot more would've gone. Young women are going to school. The Taliban didn't allow that the Taliban played football with human heads. If you remember. The Taliban were one of the most atrocious atrocious regimes in human history and all of that is gone and now the Taliban are themselves saying all of that was wrong so that is definitely a positive. The legacy that Americans can be proud of a government has been created in Afghanistan that with all its weaknesses and flaws and by the government doesn't have flaws at the same time there was always a concern that the US cannot afford to antagonize Buxton. Buxton is a nuclear armed country. Buxton has been an American ally for several several decades. It would complicate the situation if Pakistan was put under too much pressure so in a way basically the failure of the US in relation relation to Afghanistan has not been failure of its actions in Afghanistan but off its inaction in relation to a Taliban based in Pakistan Kazakhstan. I'm curious if there's anything else that you went off our listeners that I haven't asked you will. I would just say that your listeners need to think about what is common cullman. Between Vietnam Iraq Afghanistan countries America went in guns blazing and kind of came out route without a visible success. And I would say that. The real reason is a failure to understand the regional dynamics except politics and an inadequate understanding of the culture of the politics of the country. You're going when you intervene in another country entry You should know who Elisa You should have a minimalist agenda of what you're going to change to not going to change and you should have a time line in your own mind. In each of these cases those requirements were not fulfilled People that you supported like Hamid Karzai ended up running on you in being critical of you and yet you don't feel that you have somebody in Afghanistan and that you can trust as your ally so those are the errors that I think are the big lesson of Afghanistan and even now I would say that instead of announcing scheduled withdrawal America should be clear of what it wants in Afghanistan. Not when it wants it enough Afganistan thank you Mr Hussein. Connie is a former Pakistani ambassador to the United Nited States. We should mention. He was one of foreign policy. Top Global Thinkers back in twenty thirteen first person is produced by Daffron and edited by Rob. Sachs I'm Welton Welton and I'm your host.
"When Punk Was Punk"
"I'm Dana Schwartz and I'm the host of noble blood a new history podcast from iheartradio in Aaron Minke that focuses on the stories of some of history's most fascinating royals the murdered the murderers and everyone in between the world is wasteful of ill fated love affairs bad decisions and family drama but when you're wearing the crown mistakes tend to mean blood listening subscribe at Apple podcasts or on the iheartradio APP or wherever you listen to podcasts so open your hearts listen to your butts. Listen your butts. I changed written down in front of me and I said it wrong. It's time for couples therapy. Yeah this taken both talk at exit. Vacationing with brunches cousin linked to messy situation since unconscious coupling from Netflix to stay with the Mulu Tech Sex rexel billion on your new Jubal you were eating. They repeat welcome to couples therapy. My name is Andy. I'm I am now me and we are a real life. Couple real couple of COMEDIANS and on couples therapy we bring you the best sets from our live show where we have comics who are close to set together a bathroom relationship. Sometimes we have guests in studio. That's one of these. Oh me who you gotTa Fund One. This was lovely these were can we say new friends of ours say like I think this is officially. These are new friends. You guys we are sitting down and talking to Ashley Birch and more Burke true power couple okay ashes a writer and actor voiceover actor known for her work on shows and video games like Stein's gate attack on Titan fortnight final fantasy and she's on the upcoming apple show mythic quest. Ah You're on that to Naomi ooh more burke is an actor U._c.. non-drug history that he dynamite comedy Bang Bang Mindy Project and one of my Andy's favorite shows and listed with another one of our friends and also a couple's therapy regular Michelle Bhutto so we sit down with these folks and it is a good time before we get to that wonderful beautiful compensation housekeeping baby girls. Let's see here. What should we do first and what about our live shows? We've got some live shows coming up. You guys August. I we will be in New York City at Union Hall to shows seven thirty and ten P._M.. Oh Man I'm very site. Jean Grey is going to be on one of the shows wonderful hip hop MC. We got dulcie Sloan from the daily show on one of them. We got Alex English who you know from the Rundown Robin P._D.. Nitrate Wyatt setback and it's just going to be a wonderful time also the next day. We're going to be Philadelphia good good comedy theater doing couples therapy name. You are also going to be doing an hour of stand up. It's an it's a night of US Good Friday August second so you can hit US eight thirty and ten PM and we're back here on August tenth in L._A.. Yes Virgil so if you want tickets to any of those shows go to couples therapy pod dot com while you're there you can also sign up for a Patriot on for the low low price of five dollars. You get two extra episodes a month with just MIA Naomi we again real deep with issues. We goof around. We Sing Song. Sometimes I mean we'll tell you happy birthday. That's what we do on the Patriae Riyan. It's a real wonderful time. People seem to like it a lot so you can sign up on couples therapy dot com for that you can also find the call in line every once in a while we do advice episodes and if you call in you can leave a voicemail and ask us a question we will answer it on one of these episodes so right and if you want but you can find all that stuff couples theropod dot com. What else do we have to tell them anything else? I think they know everything else. Yeah we met we met Ashley and Mort for real at a party. I think we reference that the whole thing but that's where we met and we were like we want to talk to you guys and honestly it was a fun time. I think we we were in a weird emotional space coming in but I feel like we all got on the same page. We had some the laws. My soul feels rejuvenated really. Does I feel I'm floating. I hope yours will feel to you and Ashley. Did you guys meet working on. Was It mythic quest now. Oh Yes yes. We did mythic Quiz mythic quest I I think the first thing I did was with Ash I think half of my body was covered by a green screen. I think yes you had to stand. I heard your voice from afar tar in this. I wish I wish all normal office comedy plus me as a Centaur would be ideal before we get in deep. You guys introduce yourself slasher voices for the listener right. Hey I'm mort burke and I'm actually Birch. We're dating dated aided and are continuing here making that choice every day haunches decision of course more than I met on enlisted I played the lead on that. Show your sexy or now look great. Wow that's a nice thanks. I think my only acting credit is. I was in a a photograph in the Pete Holmes. Show what I got paid. I did you gotta pay to photos got paid twice okay. You know that's all I want because like when I love procedural when my favorite show is criminal minds this is his last season and I was like okay. I have no power enormous girl fifteen years coming to a are you OK longest relationship but my big big goal was but you know they always have the faces like the previous victims. I was just fucking victim fate. Yeah you know what I mean yeah. You're a photograph actor. That's like you're really only credit. Can you get me in then. I don't know ash more I mean first of all. I just need the listeners to know. I need to tell you on the record. Thanks for coming in thanks for going on emotional journey with us today actually and more you know late in the day in the afternoon I was like hey can we push to six thirty instead of six like a goddamn animal because we were in the middle of a cat issue and we just had to run around and we just had to get him in. You know the doctors at five o'clock and of course that's it's the only opening they had at the vet you know when I got somewhere to be fucking fit for the listener I I was. I was typing away at my computer and I looked down. I saw spots of blood on the ground and I look over and I see our dear darling growing squeeze. His ear is bleeding dying dying terrifying moment that very much whatever your phrasing was a little corner. The cat is not dying. I am dying thought yes. Oh sorry that's fine lines. Yeah okay so we went to the vet and everything's fine but just that moment of panic and so that's that's the that's the emotional space I'm living in today. Spots yeah we own two cats and I felt like a small bump on one of them once and I almost had a heart attack so I can't imagine anyone actually bleed. We lost our dear Samantha for weeks or something that I didn't know if Ashley was going to survive I was it was I can curse right of course I'm so fucking bomb so bummed for so long I like walking around the street like a lot like a fucking orphaned child shooting a bag of cat food calling to her the night to ghosts in the neighborhood neighbor's neighbor's roof like on the daily she has a human name would so many Tim McGuire searching for our daughter so serious got now and just hit the whole weeks the fucked up thing was that I was in our bathroom and I heard from afar and we saw her on the river neighbor's house so we knew she was even roof but we couldn't get to her. She's so fast jet black and Wiza- pound so it's like tiny she's very small so for two weeks. I was like going out there with a bag of food. We got a trap dude and we went onto the neighbor's roof like steel seal team six ten pm we asked him if we go into the wind. Stop coming him uncomfortable the X.. I was thinking yeah. I was so bummed Charlotte who you met. I think onset was like fuck those people this is your baby. Do whatever you needed to add much Kasama. You found that there was a cashier. Pornography Psalms Weird little cavern no one time my old cat professor whisker so I was moving thank you I was moving. The Voice of Professor was area of study surprisingly rising anthropology mostly though French the French and sociology board do anyway the point is I was moving from Pittsburgh. The point is podcasts name in the middle of a dead Milkman. I'm no children. The punk was God. The two of you wrong was a real musician and not acting in the chase so Andrew on with professor with I was moving from from Pittsburgh to Philly and we packed up the the house and I took out my air conditioner and I forgot to close the window to go and take a shower. When I get out I see the windows open and I can't find professor whiskers anywhere and I start this is the second floor to start flipping out? Naturally I run everywhere and then I like glance outside. He's just chilling out on the porch can his leg. Nothing's wrong just one of that direct Sun Louis Freedom and then did some one day show up at the door though we'll so we got a possum trap. Originally I put K._F._C. in their because my friend was like you get a whopper and they'll come running and someone else said K._F._C. and I was like all right so I bought K._F._C.. I think for the first time in my entire our life and then I got trapped in their chicken but I put it in there nothing and then my friend was like you should actually just put a can of wet cat food in there so we did. We're going on Christmas Eve Walk John and I saw. I saw that the door was closed and it could be and I went and Samantha's fully lashes a Halloween cat. I saw like white and like Brown patches almost be another cat creatures head turns and it's a full on fucking adult crazy looking possum mouth kind of opened a million teeth. It was terrifying the the mouth open thing like this we. I don't think he's just here. They're scary and creepy think from stranger things could have been. It probably was freaky Moore said let me open this. It'll take you away Mickey. What's possum Queens China Mary my lady he opened the gate and I was like that? possums ever GONNA fuck. That's like a palm hotel. Put a blanket in there but then I went to bed early that night distraught from losing Atlanta and more woke me up at like twelve o five in the morning on Christmas Day. Hey Samantha was in positron. She got him there as a Christmas miracle a drunk as trackers and now she's the cuddly as can change gene on the streets now. She's like Oh. I had the good life didn't know it yeah. I was out in the street. Yeah didn't realize how rough it was trapped on roofs there for a little to be on the are you guys stress eaters <music> like how do you deal with over those two weeks. How did you deal with the stress? What did I do think we binge T._V.? I like watched a lot of parks and rec I think or maybe new girl one of those one of those I think I tried to remain calm for Ashley's emotional rock now playing your gender. You're like I'm the man of the House you're gonNA hold it down. You can't it's hard to tell from my voice but I'm hyper masculine who are for the list or he is lifting weights right now. I'm looking at it as a centerfold playboy center. How did you two crazy kids me on the street all the streets of each other yeah it was the central Los Angeles was the streets it was literally the plot of Aristocrats Disney film? We met through a friend I was I was playing you guys play games now. I Count Raven Hill. I don't think you should object in matching. I do now does in order to appease me but like if find Mike we should be social then you will play a game with social like video games. It means okay. Yes just me then. Just you know came or Queen. Okay you need to know those fat I refer to as the ultimate Gamer Queen you all the time yeah he does that feel title. Wasn't it something when we met when you guys met you and Ashley you mentioned Stein's Gay and then later we found voice on Stein's gay so okay King in himself for the audience. We were talking about Naomi since moving to Los Angeles has become a real anime Stan an anime state and there's a handful of ones that I think trans something. What's the second word in the end say the one we're because I was just say grass Trans Grass and that doesn't feel right? That's not the flavor transcend the kind of just like the regular like what you think of as anime right right death note and I said I was trying to I was like all right Stein's gates the other one <hes> and then I found out that you were a voice on that and I felt very very embarrassed I didn't I don't know why I was embarrassed. I don't go around walk out of that. People's like I._M._D._B.. Resumes in my head weird. If you're like Dude I love this movie and then the US talking to the Star that movie nights what to do in that situation situation because I feel like it's kind of an arrogant thing to be like I'm in. Maybe that's the more polite thing to should I have done that. No you should've perfect okay should have elbowed me and I would have said it. Would you remember that I was in the animates Stein's j whenever you elbow me. I'll know you start listening. Just say she's in that video game all of Naomi's I was like Oh Adam Ruins everything. Please Eddie please that sick. Can I tell you guys though to be at a party Hollywood party and get to talk about anime because I feel uncomfortable at parties and the second you brought up animals like yes something I come party to beautiful neon Liane Lights. It felt like an eighties Hollywood very attract a little bit but he was hot as hell in grey dresses felt like I was like Oh. This is what this is that deleted scene from entourage that intensive entourage delete seeing from entourage plus from Dr Five had came together. Cardi Rica was their side aside seen from Big Bang theory. I guess we're talking about anime really weird mix. I'm getting all over the place but we were talking about games. Did you guys meet through game. Oh so we were I was playing. This game called last Guardian to be played in Indy. I'm a Nintendo Guy. That's the right knee if you're going to pick one but the last guardian is just it's like I don't know how to describe. It's kind of more of a like an artsy game but you're a little you're like a little boy. That has a massive dog. Creature is a friend I love that and so I was playing this with our friend. Andrew Moore came over and the dog is really cute but it has like bird feet wheat was watching play. It was like this dog's feet really bummed me out. I hated this very gross. That's the fucking funniest way to phrase that this guy was a huge because it's what's the never ending story. It's like that much fun and then also it has disgusting Grossberg but saying these people bumpy out made me sad foul core with weird feet yeah yes exactly so that was how we met. He was very funny immediately. Now's like one day when you were smitten kitten I was were you a smitten yeah. I was like dude. It was so natural right away. I think that's the thing that it almost kind of went over my almost even like it went on my radar radar because it was so easy I think I think probably also kind of I think he wants to that. You are a little worried about being weird and creeping on your friend's friend. I don't know maybe pursued you very intense. Actually Yeah <hes> and were you always that way straight shooting sister making barely like well tried triple as I just I thought no but then I went back through my my lexicon of being rejected in my life and Yes yes I have. It's strange because I see myself as kind of an anxious bunny but I asked out many guy before more. I think it was rejected Egypt really everyone every time I asked a guy out before you I think I was rejected really wait everytime that's crazy a handful of times. That's insane. Nice <hes> yeah yeah that's absolutely true humbled over and over again you were brought blow to say if we could see like a clip show version of that every single time you like whatever or just optimistic ten of those in a row no absolutely not horse not very nice to me. One guy tried to come back later and I was like Nah ship sailed my dude. Yeah not really does. How did that all happen? How long wait what was the reject? What was his rejection of you and then how long until wait and then what was your rejection of him? It was all very mild I was like do you want to go oh and he was like Oh. I don't really see that when I was like okay and then he dated a friend of mine in high school and then I got to like this middle school that I asked him out and then like junior wait sophomore junior year of high school. Maybe someone was like he might be into like trying. I WANNA go on a date and I was like no thanks and then that was good. It was very very mild. Yes No. I'm just like putting on a petty Lebel. Even though it's like you've gone through puberty. Maybe you've grown. I will never fucking for I love it holds some shit against him either even eleven my way my way were today because we've been emotional cat in your cat. Energy is like bubble yeah yeah wow that's he week. Samantha was John Yeah Man so Chris and here's the other thing I noticed I was thinking recently about cats is that people are projecting. People hate cats. They're projecting so much shit. They're cancer fucking assholes. You like it weighs a pound and a half your annually fired from your job. This is my theory about P._S._A.. That those people are assholes because I think cats pick up on your energy and if you are a decent God fearing Carson yes on whatever God you right doesn't matter they will they will pick up on that and come to you yeah but if you if you are Satan fearing if you are cruel if you are a shriveled cockroach of a person right they pick up on that and they stay the hell away there. Also your huge compared to them. Thirty foot man came in here and you know what I mean like scratching my ears. I would do everything in my power to stop that mania. We'll also the cat doesn't need to fuck and dance for you exactly like you but they're liking of you is just more subdued. It is let me lay next to you. Let me pay we in Japan. We Ain't yelling at hope reduction. They don't need you truly then and if you're needy they don't like that they don't like that yeah and you know it like respect respect boundary other little models like like runway models year the hot little models. I'm sexually attracted S._X.. Thing and this is what couples therapy is. You know you should pick up on this on the break attracted the cat ECE that's going. You're wicky wicky back. Hey I'm andy if you don't know me. It's probably because I'm not famous but I did start. A men's grooming company called Harry's. The idea for Harry's came out of a frustrating experience. I had buying razor blades. Most brands were overpriced over designed and Outta touch at Harry's our approach is simple. Here's our secret we make sharp durable blades and sell them at honest prices for as low as two dollars each each we care about quality so much that we do some crazy things like by a world class German blade factory obsessing over every detail means. We're confident and offering one hundred percent quality guarantee millions of guys have already made the switch to Harry's so thank you if you're one of them and if you're not God we hope you give us a try with the special offer. Get a Harry starter set with a five Blade Razor waited handle Shave Gel and travel cover offered just three bucks plus free shipping just go to Harrys DOT COM and enter four four four four at checkout. That's Harrys Dot com code four four four four enjoy and we're back so I was just a foolish goofy it does and how long have you been dating long. Have we been eating over two two and a half and are you living together. How long has that been happening years? Something Oh fast. 's Okay you. You went in hot yeah yeah what what. How did you know it was time to get in there? We went on a very long road trips together to Saint Louis Missouri where Mortis from and that's how many it was like. Let's drive there to see if we can break this relationship. You like a pressure cooker okay. Let's get a real crucible going. We are in a Chevy Chevy spark which we love this car but it is not like large or Ra luxuriance. It's really we're very close to the person doesn't have a C._d.. Player it's like no cable broke like nine the <hes> cable the port broke when we got to Missouri and I was on the way back but but we didn't get enough we didn't get in any fights and had fun the whole time and then when I got we got back. I like dropped him off because it was it was my car at the time we dropped. I dropped him off and then I was like oh I kind I miss them like after spending like two weeks straight we SORTA wanted to hang out the next day yeah after having been trapped in a car a year and a half in going to Missouri so so yeah I felt like Willy Mayes. Let's move in together at that point all right. The seems like we're in good shape here. Yeah we get along. I say like gangbusters yeah. He does like to say that it's more fun. I said rigmarole earlier and I was like no one says that yeah no I use the word Scalia Wag that sets the cat's pajamas before more don't get attracted to this is the call that did it to myself. You had other long term relationships. I asked this because like before andy the lungs registered. I have been in before Andy eight months. Really we push in. We're at nine and a half years. I will say like the first couple years like I over thought everything does he just like is this normal what happens next what our love over and over what our loves are how many loves but like but that's dated much so like I was in Calico. I was in a tune to like even what I thought I wanted for myself. Let alone are you happy. Do you love me yeah. I that doesn't change okay and you know you taught me over in the you WanNa to bring up some shit around drag me just play it. I told you out for jobs. Are It's okay. It's what we signed up for with each other's sell out your I feel like I had had my the <hes>. I've had some long term relationships the one board so I was single for three years before we met <hes> before that I was in a relationship for about four and a half years and that one was actually pretty good. It was kind of the healthiest relationship I'd had so. I think that helped me to trust this relationship more which is nice mobile by that. I've been in longer term relationships that they've all been a little wacky like none of them. Were particularly healthy. Okay so this is probably the first long term healthy relationship I've been oh wow I would say and you're not freaking out. Oh I freak out more knows ivory which is extra fun but yes so this is yeah yes so this is like the two and a half years of of a healthy relationship is good. I think we're we're both trying. You know what I mean. We're both in therapy and we do stuff therapy. I repeat further ability like be with yourself so you can be women another purse. I really like this. I one thing that I'm trying to be conscious of his. It's easy to blame your partner for pain. That was there before them yeah more more sister girl Anton alive and it's so easy when you're like you did one kind of annoying thing and all of a sudden it brings up a lack of love that existed in twelve that mad at you over Yeah Yeah Yeah Happen at twelve was kidnapped and assaulted. We not wait so you're the Naomi I feel. I feel like you and I'm worried. Have same kind of energy <hes> feeling jovial kind yeah actually are freaking out at that party was like Oh good someone I know my boot keeps falling out of his job. uh-huh literally how I say Alot because you seem very composed and very eighties Oh yeah but I was very relieved. I was like I wanted to go the second week out there and the Michelle was like no it was like Oh God we we go to her. Immediately talked to someone else. I know now and I'm not acting like I'll freak out party Alfred over. Although do you find that having somebody else frigging out makes you feel a little less freaked sometimes right because that 'cause it's forces you to be the emotional rock doc they can cling to the waves splash against the pain of life so yes so I find when I find there is a certain kind of calming effect to Naomi to you kind of losing it. Oh my God so you're welcome service so there's not been around her neck. No because what happens for me is my brain kicks into and AH WE'VE learned in couples therapy is necessarily healthy but my brain kicks into. How can I fix this mode? How can I come you? How can I make your anxiety lesson? How can I drain the ocean and that so then that's other side of that thing? Which is oh that person having pain that was there before me as well? You know what I mean that to me. Helps me not try to fix that stuff as much. Yes and you can't fix it you can you can just listen yeah eventually learned right it can be there as in the rock of trying to come up with a long wait to see it come to but yeah yeah we've been like it's been interesting just because you guys both being therapy so we still have our couples person skype with New York because we're addicted to him and that works. Have we ever mentioned him on the show. Okay everyone if if you are in New York City okay you need to be calling up James McGovern okay guys. He has a sliding scale. He is dope. He will give you life. He's coming from all angles and he's literally responsible for our love by right now. We're not an individual individual therapy. We haven't found a person Yup ear because everyone has nine therapists. I'm surprised I got I got. I got hot wreck for you. If you want he's actually but I will say is like Nick. Were relying on each other more than we did in New York like to be the the fucking receptacle for everything and to like help me figure it out because you're it's easy to get more isolated in L._A.. Okay and then you're kind of isolated with your Martin. Yes just moved to right so that's extra hard years but yes just feels like it was yesterday almost two Oh wow July fourth for you yeah. I got here here so so yeah so it's been but it's like we're together all the time and like these are are are we are each other's friends and it's like Oh. No that can't be that's how a love lasts you gotTA. Have your separate lives yeah. It's when you when you make one person responsible for every part of your life like elevating every part of your life. It's it can get really sticky yup totally and I do feel like that's a Los Angeles thing where you have to really make an effort to become part of a community in New York. I lived in Chicago for a long time. Whatever you kind of walk out the door and you're just as like you'll see a buddy within twenty minutes? Whatever that was New York too? That's there's this fanned magnetic fields and there's a song called one hundred thousand firefly's <hes> you and I forgot about I re listened to one of the two thousand firefighters the other day for the first time in a long time and I forgot there's a line. That's like uh-huh. Why do we still live here in this repulsive town? All our friends are in New York Andrew. I would have to say twenty times in a row over over no and then I went on superchunk doesn't cover Everett listen to that Youtube and listen to all these different people doing covers of the song just listening for that line in a different way. You're speaking to my heart Stephen Merritt big exploiting music for the sadness sad and it's been it's been Elliott Smith for forty eight hours. You have a knife poise at your but I think you have to find the advantages of Los Angeles because there's a thing that happens where you can't. It's like having a new boyfriend or girlfriend or you can't compare them to the old one that what you like about L._A.. Because you never going to be New York it can't yeah baby. They must feel is let slightly moved to the cool kids area. New York is like waiting a shape shifter then shifts that changes based on whatever your moods are. uh-huh lost what don't scare in Los Angeles like dating a Troll who understand your journey no offense offense to any trolls that are listening well. Yeah you gotta find the parts of L._A.. That you like I think and things about you know what I mean. It's active. I know we always talk about L._A.. Like every episode we'll find a way to be like we're not happy. We're fine and also I'm probably not happy anywhere. You know what I mean. Is that kind of person I get it. So you guys with you type of thing Hon I moved to Australia and managed to have a problem really make yourself where you go. That's how I am. It's not even like Oh. I I hate it so much. As much as <hes> nothing is perfect and know where you live is going to be able to counteract the emptiness and self hatred. You may feel right and then you really gotta face it in way well. That's the that's the thing that I'm from newborn race. I think I'm just it's just my natural way what I'm used to really drive yup but also it is a distracting city right New York yes to end immediately have something going and then also just like it. He's such a struggle to survive but kind of like that because if I have to just like literally make sure my train doesn't start going express and I don't end up involving Queen Yup. I don't have time to be like why is it my career I have to they get to where I need to be totally last time it was there I was and I love the energy. Obviously he's like nowhere else and I was like I've always loved it but last time I went was a few years ago. It took me. I was like it just felt like people were screaming at me for three days straight. It's great about I know but then of course that's the ultimate distraction right if they're like honking horns and fire engines and children's crying listen to the silence I put on podcasts all the time so that distracts me for my anxiety diety <hes> as long as I got some fun stuff going on in my ears. I don't have to worry about the looming specter of death his side boys that my neck's last night I had to call you out India's getting ready ready to go to bed and again. He can't do any of it without playing something but I'm in the bedroom. I'm already calling it a night and this is a decent hallway and I can hear whatever podcast he's listening to top volume and I was like Andy. You're in the route with it. Why is it this loud? It's like you're playing it loud enough to drown out your brain and he was listening to something if I don't have my my laptop going whatever it's not that loud right. I'm right next to it and he's like the whole bucket hallway. We are listening to this right now and I'm like you must've trying to read. My plane is like the craven's drums in the Spiderman issues craven's last hunt. Where is there? What are what are some of the points of connection for you? Guys we liked to Goof is a big one yeah. We'd like to live Yup. I mean we're we're. We kind of do a lot of bits. I guess together Yup so I guess comedy and then I think what pretty in sync spiritually I suppose. I think so if that's what else we don't actually have a lot of overlapping hobby thing yes Ashley is the ultimate Gamer. Queen gave a million dudes on the Internet who you know what I mean. Who would love to sit down and play some video games? I'm not super into it. You know a little bit of Mario Odyssey though totally and she'll let me talk about skateboarding which I'm obsessed with with so we their stuff that slightly over last. I think that's because we love each other yeah yeah yeah so mostly. I mean we'll do some T._v.. But even it's funny because even our TV interests aren't always aligned but when when they are aligned at it's like magic like we watched Red Dwarf recently for the first time it's Oh it's so great Scifi comedy the British Immediate Selling Point Andy definitely yeah he's gotten me into T._v.. Host of London is unbelievable all US go nuts Glenn Bendon go. Can you hear me any word over enunciate all their names ray purchases the funny purchase and you described rides and episode to me and my loved it envelope. That's the name pen Vullo literally old black woman someone who was in love with we got to watch the whole thing. I watched a couple of more. We have watched the whole thing. It's fucking funny yeah. It's pretty unbelievable so I think we all would like funny shit. Yeah we will whatever watch stand up and yeah we like funny stuff and movies in general I think and <hes> yeah that's I think we get a we get along so well conversationally that we like any interest can almost become the other person's in a way yeah we don't like. I don't think we unless it's like a comedy thing. We don't necessarily get as excited about stuff but we're pretty. We're pretty open to doing what whatever the other ones do. We like different kinds of music but like the Ashley has good so the music. She plays me like fuck yeah. This is great yeah vice versa I don't know does it go by I or because it doesn't for Naomi's like he likes beyond say or whatever and I'm just like yeah of course lemonade slaps APPs like we'll find will wear it into the ground. He really wanted props for that. I can't I can't say it normally. Do you remember it's Selena Look at an Annunciation. Let us all love leans into it. Crazy little impish slang that thirty years younger than me right you know we don't but I don't understand the Indie rock. You know what I say. It's it's men who are up here and women who sound like ghosts and too gentle ghost to haunt me and so I don't so we don't own overlap on the music I- overlap into you my ven diagram dips into yours but yours doesn't dip into mile how you draw that. You probably don't exploit music for sadness like Amanda I used I do like middle school high school. I mean girl Gimme anti-franco envelope and then at some point you like Oh. This isn't helpful right. I shouldn't be doing this anymore. I'm feeling worse so yeah definitely stop but he's not as into music I used to be. I love like yeah same. Give me a good Broadway soundtrack like I like voices. I like a belting. I'm going to be sitting around the house like we make up songs in the house and that's a big part of our life. Yeah I think we do that yet. Will lead we mostly adapt existing songs is to be about our cats that John Nra here either love that her that made you physically sick to hear that we do. We like the Beatles helping we know about cats yep aw that's the that's our main to who I should've had children already by now SCAP per gel helter cat lert cats cats goofy kitts yeah. There's something in the air tonight so bright Samantha etc.. I got that that's a more settled paired where you just change the name yeah to be Samantha just to be. I'm willis creative more more. Does the whole we're GonNa take a quick break and get back into it with Moore Ashley. y'All do you sell stuff online then. You knew what a pain shipping can be. It's time consuming. It's expensive. It's a hassle until now introducing ship station the fastest easiest and most affordable way to get your products to your customers. Whether you sell stuff on Amazon Oetzi Shop Affi- or your own website with ship station you can quickly ship all orders from one easy to use dashboard saving you a ton of time. There's even an easy to use mobile APP. So you always have access plus. You'll save money. Worship stations deeply discounted rates from all the top carriers like U._S._P._S. U._P._S.. U._P._S. Fedex and more so you can always choose the best carrier at the lowest rate for every package. It's no wonder ship. Station is rated number one by online sellers and right now you can try ship station free for sixty days Geez. That's right free just go to ship station DOT COM and enter the Promo Code podcast. We guarantee ship station will make getting orders to your customers a lot easier that ship station DOT COM Promo Code podcast ship station make ship happen all right. We're pack Naomi Name A saw. I'll make game a Beatles song about a cat. As long as I can remember the melts okay. I don't know many Beatles Song. Don't at me bitches yellow submarine. We all live in a yellow cat murray. You gotta change altogether. I don't know the tune but I would just we live in a yellow litterbox. Aw I don't know we is way better anti comedy you went for Real Comedy. The cat's life play real agenda return to the same sort of thematic subject matter so it'll be like these leads a pretty goofy British sleepy. They really like cat food. That's icing say like cats. More thinks it's so funny that cats like cat food that they have only one food. It is cat food and they love. It thinks it's so funny. It was only human food. It was just called people food or every restaurant your food please a big bag that they empty. I can't wait to run to it. The way cats run the cat from fossil wild on boy the little mouse Kempton. You're saying that when you guys would on that road trip you didn't fight and I'm like crazy. Do you find do you have little fights and obviously we're GONNA honey. I don't have the I don't take the Kobe but what sort of like what are some of the little. You don't need a little story like we get into this and it's like dumb but we get into it anyway. Yeah Fair myself under the bus I. I have anxiety and it manifests as a need to control things and so sometimes gesturing to be listeners yesterday right to your face so sometimes they'll do a thing where like like if I've if we've bought all of the accoutrements make a particular sandwich and and more leaves out a particular ingredient I really start to fear that it will go to waste and that I'm a bad wasteful person and I am the problem. I'm with the with the world I'm the climate change is happening. My brain will just and so I will vary overtly try to force more on a sandwich posing it as potentially something that he wants to do. The album out in the streets and Avocado is great. I'm not trying to hate haters. Welcome you know yeah yeah. I was like Oh great. I'll put this and then after a while I was like I don't think I want to know while Oh wait. No no I have to say no order this Kado no thank you. I think this is the thing that my mom does that. I never realized so. I think I've it's one of these ways that you grow to. Are you paying what Beatles songs that I don't know it should be one yeah they would have made it fading into obscurity. This sounds like you now. How so Andrew what do you mean? Manifesting anxiety is control of your partner. Do we just break you guys up. Yeah I stared no. Do you want to bring an example to the court. You know what I mean. Do you have an exhibit. Oh I tend to this is how I stay sane with all reality whatever's travel and may I just put in a little box and then I forget about it buried under the rock. I'm eggs -IETY. What was the Rock Anyway rock of empathy or throw into the savings? I was so <hes> I don't know if I have an example. I just meant in general that I mean example to draw on you know what I mean. Not Play that resonates with me and I feel like I can kind of throw myself onto the bus a little bit. I think I get it freaked out about like career stuff or shit like that and then I'll kind of expect Ashley to deal with that emotionally and then when it's actually my job to do with that stuff and sometimes she doesn't really beautifully and then sometimes she stressed on our own then I realized Oh this is my own bullshit. I have to try and handle <hes> yeah. Maybe yeah probably yeah yeah. It's hard when you're both like in this hustle. You know what I mean which I think I can. I've been just distilling down to when you're both fundamentally waiting to be chosen. That's what this this this this work to do. It is just to be like I'm here. I'm here in tech avail waiting for someone to pick you like do you know what the kind of reminds me of like when you're in Uh school at Gym Class and they're picking teams for something and you're just there to standing waiting expectant and as a small ju I was one of the last ones chosen and I'm just standing there kind of like come on. You're a chosen person but you orch. Do they ever go not the Joo Jin Pennsylvania founded by Germans terrified founded by Germans. That's yeah man to we talk sometime and I've heard it somewhere else too but just trying to not make Hollywood your mom and dad or trying to knock marriage thing. It's like Hollywood is not your parents business. Not Your parents yes. It's it's true 'cause it's an authority figure. It's this nameless formless Amorphous Authority figure that controls your destiny well you you project your safety onto it because it's like it's feels like this thing that is going to give you money invalidation or whatever and if you feel unsafe fundamentally than you are under the delusion that that Shit will make you feel good forever right which of course no yeah yeah so the difficulty then is in usually in a relationship at least one person is like the rock that's right but when both of you are in this together then you have to. I don't know what we're still trying to figure turns being the raw like what it is but sometimes I think for the most part it does work pretty well but then sometimes you can't line up right right and that's when it's really that's the main thing that I think it's us as when we're both in a shitty spot I mean that's probably every couple but like when you when you aren't able to pass the baton back and forth for whatever reason and you both both have a shitty day on the same day it can like. I feel that so lately we're trying to be to say something along the lines of like. Maybe I love you but I just don't have the bandwidth for this gentle because like the fighting thing I don't. I don't like fighting eating makes my stomach hurt by that is gonNa Punch me for some reason my God that is U.. N. D. O. Literally doubt even though I need everyone I've never laid a hand on this but but it's just like that's what his anxiety impulsive. I could take a punch when you were growing up. Did your friends were they hit. He friends my friends. Were kind of like like not like punch hit but like if you if you like made a joke we're GONNA rock. Oh that's good hit you in the arm or something like the recipe dudes mine win. Were too much feel like <hes> but I I don't like it when I see I've seen people do it. I'm like I'm glad it's not me being wrestled to the ground dominance. I have ancient P._T._S._D.. Right right just a good and bad hits being smacked all the time indiscriminately by the people who claim to love you like playing basketball my friend Kirk and I would go for a layup and he would just punch you in the leg and give you a Charley Horse God. I don't like people like lear literally not winning anything that he felt the need to do that. Gotcha yeah right. We're displayed Russian yeah when I was all like the friend group. Yes I think it also partially does maybe come from like dudes aren't allowed to touch each other affectionately so he's just hit each other. All you could touch somebody to be like we're the I love you do oh. I just punched the microphone so crazy yeah you're right. It's a symptom of toxic masculinity where like you can't just hug your friend so you got to punch him. Yeah that's it. That's hot takes or just putting a button on that is there. Here's a question. Is there a story that you think typifies your relationship together. Oh that's a good question. <hes> you have one. I don't now I mean we're talking about that like do other people. I feel like I should listen to think about this more. We're talking about the first bit we had was a weird silly little bit that we loved and just built on top of it yeah and to me that that tip. I don't even know what's worth repeating. How it is? What's the bit <hes> we just had this the idea of this little creature imagine <hes> almost like a minion type of guy from <hes> despicably I guess but he's just like I imagined this? This vision a minion sort of short little mole man who is maybe green to is maybe green and he only say the word okay no matter what so we give each other prompts and then the other person would interpret them and say okay. Isn't it was mark his name was mark so mark is on is testifying in a murder case Jason and then the person says swear to tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth is the person in this room. Who committed this crime okay? It'll be him having his children children taken away but he's only struggling. It sounds as we would give him. Give him a nice thing. Market can have a daughter okay. I feel that one. I think it doesn't try. We loved lobbed thought it was no but that is definitely one of us is like that. Is Your vibe in a nutshell the relationship. Do you know what I mean like. It is like it's very silly. We are going to ride this out yeah as far as we should be like <unk> bits and goofs Google which is a big thing for me because I realized like there was a relationship I was in that was like not terrible but it wasn't the right one and I realized that part of the reason was that the guy wasn't very playful and I it was it was good to be in that relationship because it made me realize how important that is to me to be able to just be goofy with someone pretty essential thing yeah. That's definitely I think are too. I think so black cyclops. Oh Yeah Yeah Yeah if you've read. I'll throw another comeback reference. The Brian K Vaughan Comic Book Saga. I Love Saga. There's a black cyclops and we made up songs about blacks reading. He can't take the news because it's got him to show cyclops yeah so it's always that and then a rhyming like sure I love that here's this about more fun than singing. Ours is real limited to one word Okay L.. I know he's a sweetheart. He's doing his best. That's a little cutie all right anything. He's still on you know. He's in a courtroom but I also think there is something interesting about the fact that you know your earliest bit was about being agreeable. People saying okay to each other and you said you you said more like arguing makes my stomach hurt which makes me think that you might be like a relaxed. Possibly people pleasing yeah yeah for sure. I think people like to be pleased so do you are really oprah it up today. I'm having fun. I think that's true though like you really the interesting thing about our relationship to think is that when we get an argument more is almost always the person yes and that is trying to be conciliatory I his I think when my anxiety gets activated I I want to be taken care of. I and I don't have to give anything and more a Yes. Ash We are twins and more will be the first one to try to build the bridge so he'll he'll usually be the first one that will like try to be like I see what's happening. I see that you're in a lot of pain. I'm sorry and I'll be like banks and there's like an like an assumed like end. And now you will maybe but it takes a little longer but I think it's really nice because I think I've gotten better at it over time <hes> with therapy go to therapy everybody. I mean do whatever you want but I want. uh-huh is to sort of be like okay. I'm like you're saying this is pain that came before you were even around the anticipation that if I like anxious and then open myself up that'll get hurt really crazy eighty so I've had to learn to trust over time that like Lord actually has my best interest in heart. If we have a disconnect it's not because he's mentally trying to ruin you. Yes yes well. That's what we were talking about with those two women when they came by for that interview while I was like it's so it's a while because I assume we were interviewed for some other yeah but it was like this idea like when something happens recognizing your partner is not trying to destroy you. Tell you because all your fear systems that uh-huh protective shit is like yeah this person is going to ruin me foundationally and they know everything about vulnerable them. It's like yeah becomes a really really intense Mir I mean and that I yes I think the beautiful thing about Ashley I and also sometimes it's challenging thing is I think really really really alike. <hes> in a lot of ways oh yeah what do you guys too yeah just not as like what I was looking for other more in this room. No Oh I think so. I think it's like we I think we feel the same things I think it manifests itself differently. Yes I think that's ultimately you and I are very similar but whereas you tend to be more internal I just externalize at all about how this thing about a mere right is it sometimes it's the exact act opposite but it's still the same doctor Berg is in session also sign on. It's really weird that our last names are so close to get birk Birch J. It's weird it's been twice. My last name has been misspelled as burke since we've dated randomly article and one's a letter in the mail. It's at Ashley Burke. which isn't it never happened before we do you have have you like we've combined ours to Beck Baragan? ooh ooh that's good are similar ish cool British soccer team and against Awesome Bet Perry in fun too. I wrote feel like I'm <hes> I'm in this episode but thank you really yeah. I feel like the cat anxiety is really <hes>. Oh sure you guys seem a few seven and funny and great to me. You guys is a lot so it's easy to kind of push. Pass it but it's always there like a doctor dooms hand around my heart do we do we get the prognosis from the dock like stated. We'll look it wasn't just his little the era he's also just been being a little funky gear. Thing was pretty much that final Straw but let's just take him got it so they've done some blood work and we're GONNA wait. You know what I mean so our so that is like waiting in that work for me. I can kind of shut it off. It's just go. We're talking to think about this forty hours right and that's what I'm doing. I'm like I'm GonNa live in a world where nothing has happened and then like you know what I mean like and then I will adjust which I think is a healthier move because you can't worrying about. That's not gonNA change the outcome at this point. Maybe we're similar in this way and there's some when it comes to anything real <hes> this is how I am like the way a normal person should be at the tiny stuff. I really can't control and the tiny stuff that doesn't matter as much that I will obsess yes over until four in the morning that really good in an emergency up really great emergency anytime for some reason like a couple of times since we've dated I've had to randomly go to like the our urgent care and he's great. He's just like okay go rhino and like he's totally fine and he'll the dogs hunting dogs or there's a story where I'm great so more. Now we're walking along. There are these two a massive dobermans that were very loosely tied to a stop sign Jesus and they were on upside. Yeah like some guy had like gone into like kind of ran around the run into this liquor to run to those leaders are truly of course if you lose time you're Doberman. Lose your hostile German dogs so I was walking. I was on the side closest to the dogs as we were approaching. They lunged embarked and more without thinking picked me up. Put his body between me and the dogs because I'm an angel on earth that is some ride or die. She didn't even realize what he had done. He was just like are you okay. Are you okay and it was like he's and that is not what I thought I would have done in that situation right. I definitely would have been like oh I would've I would've sprinted away when he did yeah yeah. He was like I'll sacrifice my body. Everything was fine but yeah that's amazing dunams until after it happened I was like I don't know it felt like somebody else had done and I wanted to shake that person's. That's funny. I think my mom is like very lake. shifty eyed about anyone date and I think when I told her that story she was like okay as long as will die by dog is your are you and your mom pals. We're becoming pals again. I think we were pals and weren't pals and are now becoming POWs which I feel like as a typical mom daughter. I'm hearing I would not no. We don't have that Arthur all it's like we were we were friends when I was young and the moment I like you know start to push back and have opinions and not do what you told me Yeah Yeah. She's not having yet dude. It's hard for both parties is hard to be a kid like that. I mean it's hard to be a parent to watch your kid. Be like this is turning into a real a human being. That's the process as you gotta figure it out and I think the the thing with parents the reason that I feel like I can become pals with my mom that she is capable of self analyst nation. Is that a word I met analysis but now I'm getting the cat anxiety. I'll just play on uh-huh wafting breathing it in <hes> yes she can like self analyze and and kind of hear what I'm saying but my dad is the same. He's just like I'm your father should respect me respect deman- time anyway feels good to yell at into a microphone. Stop being attorney moral to hear it. Stop it turn final question. Have you ever used mark mark is the Minion is marked diffuse and argument. No we're a bit in general that happened recently. Maybe it did I think did you said something and I laughed and be calm down. Sometimes it makes me well earlier ship. I think it made it would piss me off a little bit like you. Try to joke and I was like don't make jokes I now that's real real I actually I I worked with someone which I think. This is the funniest I I'm just going to steal her story. She and her husband are arguing. She forces them to touch tummies so if an argument is test test your tummy and like and that basically she says solves solves eighty percent of their arguments because touching that is a good one. That's a good tip yeah. Do you guys have a thing a bit that no every once in a while. I just know that laughter if we're like arguing doing and then one of US makes a joke usually you'll say something that's funny and then I'll laugh and then that kind of like diffuse things yeah if it's like not a real meaning if it's not one of those fundamental fights and it's more a product of like one of us feeling touchy why it happened. Isn't that bad I think easier to just be like you idiot. You know what I mean like me. Sometimes you will think I'm mad when I'm not yes meaning. I'm just like as you could tell I I'm am I come in hot. I'm going to be speaking intensely like you're going to think it's also you know his intro to black women whereas like it's GonNa sound like a mad but it's like I'm not gonna Lag your little extra. Thank you know I am like the gum and so there'll be at times like that where he'll be like he'll like bristle thinking he's being attacked and I might bitch. I'm just talking at this level and hope when she screams bitchy it's actually a term of endearment at our household. I feel like in touchy. Situations Humor works too yeah. I think we're we're in like a proper argument like a core argument. It's Kinda hard to defuse that way but I think if we're both just feeling kind of sensitive than yeah totally and I yeah that's so hard when it gets that deep and I I don't know sometimes it's like you got to walk away for a while and then really try to talk talk through to communicate the walking away when you live together hard. That's the that's the work figuring out how to like. Go to your corners same same place yep totally even if I'm GONNA go for an angry walk walk it out. I feel that way too sometimes. If you just moved from a different room like there's something about the energy in a space where you've been like heated yeah go outside the Gulf. There's a breeze out here. Yeah get some ice cream. Yeah Green going or even talk to a friend not even about the argument we just had but if I just like goof with a friend for a second that can diffuse some of my stuff and I'll be like oh I'm being kind of unreasonable or whatever it will be easier for me to go back even if we didn't even talk about it like my head spin different. Sometimes you shouldn't talk about it. Sometimes I feel like sometimes like can we just not even get into it and just real that was dumb. That was dumb worked on like sometimes sometimes I'm like. I don't want to unpack this right sometimes cliches pop in my head one. Let sleeping dogs lie or whatever reason they say that dog exactly yeah. We're on the other side. You don't want unpack it. Just WanNa throw the suitcase into the ocean. They come together. That's how you thank you for coming in thank you I love this in France Yeah <music>. I'm Dana Schwartz and I'm the host of noble blood a new history podcast from iheartradio Aaron Minke that focuses on the stories of some of history's most fascinating royals the murdered the murderers and everyone in between.
#1180 - Q&A: Can I monetize my ideas without actually running the business?
"This episode is brought to you by the new podcast. Go and see hosted by Malcolm Latte. Well it's a six part series focused on Lexus and their philosophy of Jin chie-jen Bhutto which means go and see for yourself find out how Japanese tea ceremony influence the engineering car window. How the sound of an engine is tuned like a musical composition to elicit emotions how Understanding Samurai warriors is led to a suspension innovation. Glad we're learns that no detail is left behind and the car company can learn more about cars by studying people follow. Guo on his journey starting march fifth wherever you like to listen in visit. Lexus DOT com slash curiosity for more stories like these two phases starting any project our ideas and execution both important and they're both essential. But what if you were better at having ideas and executing what if you really only like that first phase can you focus entirely on idea generation and leave it to somebody else to do all the work? What a great role that would be. And that's what today's listener is wondering about. So I do have some tough love in this answer. You might already have a bit of an inkling of what I'll say but I also have some advice if you relate to the question because it's true that some people are better at ideas then execution so can monetize my ideas without actually doing any work or what. Say without actually running the business. Let's talk about that in this episode. The most important time is right. Now if you've got a small business a side Hustle p produce your own podcast. Whatever it is you do. These moments happen all the time. They're happening right now. Having a business card that shows how professional you are in your pocket. Ready to hand out is the first step to making something happen. Vistaprint wants you to be able to own the now in east situation. Which is why our listeners will get free shipping on all business cards any style inequality just go to sprint dot com and enter Promo Code Hustle for free shipping on all business cards any style. Inequality Limited time offer owned the now at vistaprint. Dot Com Promo Code Hustle. It's a trying time. That challenges all of our basic assumptions. However one thing that brings us altogether is our common humanity now more than ever teams must come together and work together to solve big challenges and Trello is here to help trello part of Atlassian collaborative sweet as an APP with an easy to understand visual format plus tons of features that make working with your team functional and just plain fun teens of all shapes and sizes and companies like Google fender and even costco all use Trello to collaborate. And get work done with Trello. You can work with your team wherever you are whether it's at home or in an office no matter what device. You're using computer tablet or phone Trello sinks across all of them so you can stay up to date on all the things your team cares about. Keep your workflow going from wherever you are with Trello try Trello for free and learn more trello DOT com. That's T. R. E. L. L. O. DOT COM TRELLO DOT COM. Hi Chris this is George from Cleveland and I've been listening to the show for about two years now and I've enjoyed the daily inspiration and helpful advice. My question is can I monetize my ideas without actually running the business? I have a lot of ideas that I think are highly valuable. But I've learned that I'm not the best it and making them happen. I want to sell the ideas themselves along with my notes on what I think. The person needs to do to make them successful. Is that crazy? How would I go about doing it? Look forward to your response. George thank you so much for listening And first of all you're not crazy. I do very much appreciate this question. I think a lot of other people might as well just to kind of de personalize it a bit. Let's imagine someone sitting in a room somewhere. It just kind of picturing themselves as a Modern Day mad scientist or inventor and all they do is they sit around conjuring up ideas and then selling them off to someone else to turn into reality. Now when I think about that I think nice work if you can get it. But that's not usually how it works if it ever did. In fact it was Thomas. Edison whose sometimes billed as America's greatest adventure Y- all these different inventions and patents. And he's the one who said genius is one percent inspiration and ninety nine percents. Perspiration great accomplishments depend not so much on ingenuity. As on hard work the point there is that even mad scientists inventors need to do a lot more than just dream up ideas and I really do believe that ideas on their own. Don't have a ton of value once in awhile. I someone will write me and say I have this idea that I'd love to tell you about but before I tell you about it I need you to sign an NDA. And I'm always like okay. That's actually crazy. Okay Georgia's and crazy but that idea of making somebody signed before you tell me what your ideas like. I assure you I do not have time to steal your idea right. So let's take an extreme example if this an extreme example the company known as Theranos in its CEO Elizabeth homes. They're documentaries about this. That came out really good book. Bad blood written by John Kerry essentially documented the story of this company. They had an incredible idea an incredible promise which was essentially being able to do all sorts of medical testing with just a tiny amount of blood like a little pinprick as opposed to drawing blood. So incredible idea was actually billions of dollars in valuation on this company built on this idea if it would have only worked. The problem was many listeners. May know it didn't work. She just pretended it did not just Elizabeth home but a few insiders as well. The only execution of the idea was the cover up so once it was revealed to be fraudulent the entire company collapsed losing billions of dollars in valuation. That was all based on smoke and mirrors. So essentially. The idea is not that valuable. That's the point. And maybe that's an extreme example. But you could come out tomorrow and say hey. I've got an idea. Got This brilliant idea for a Unicorn spotting service it's going to allow you to see. Unicorns billion dollar companies I mean actually UNICORNS. And no one would pay you for it right. They would say that's ridiculous at least not unless you could actually deliver results so bit of tough love there. I realized but the advice. Because I don't want to just say okay. That's it you're stuck. What if you are better at having ideas and executing? So that's fine you can number one improved execution. I'm going to recommend a book by Scott Belsky. Making ideas happen really good book about going from idea to action. You can also number to focus on one idea time. Don't try to do too much. Choose one idea for thirty days. You're not making a life commitment but do make a commitment to say okay. I'm just going to work on this idea. I'm really good at coming up with lots of ideas but I'm going to choose one for the next thirty days and then you could also partner up. This is the third option work with someone who's better than you at managing the details the details the operation the day to day. But that's not the same as only generating ideas so thank you again George. Forgive me that great setup. I do hope you put one of your ideas to work listeners. If you've got a question it come to wrestle school dot com slash questions. We'll be featuring them throughout the year along with update some other listeners as they go from idea to idea to action that's right idea the action all right. Thank you so much. I'll be back tomorrow. My name is Chris. Gil about this is side. Hustle School From neon word project.