20 Episode results for "Beethoven Brahms"

021: The best orchestra audition concerto

Stand Partners for Life

45:43 min | 2 years ago

021: The best orchestra audition concerto

"Hi, and welcome back to stand partners for life. I'm Nathan, I'm Akiko it. We didn't say last names this time switching it up. Thanks again for being here with us means a lot for you to spend this hour, this this won't even be now spend this time with us. And we've got a great topic today we've hinted at audition concertos before sort of talked around them a little bit when we've discussed auditions. But as episodes all about what you're starting out your audition with and I missed you the last couple of episodes of had a couple special guests, and they've been they have been awesome. I enjoyed my vacation. Thank you catch up on those. If you haven't gotten the chance to hear them, but thanks Akiko for being back with us today because you you have so much to bring to this discussion. Although the concerto you've played most recently does not appear on the list that we're working from. We'll get to that. Yeah. Civil talk about what what happens when like charter you. You wanted to play is not. Played anyway. And dare them to talk toss you that? The list, you sure, I would have mentioned many of you, maybe even most of you will have gotten an Email already from me about a survey fun little survey of I'm running at the time of this recording just to kind of see where everyone's that. What pieces you're working on how long you've been playing the violin or or even whether you play the violent because I know many of you play other instruments and your your listeners for reasons. Other than violin talk. First of all, if you haven't gotten that Email that likely means that you're not getting any of my emails in which case, you've really got, you know, reassess your priorities here. So I would encourage you to go to Nate's violin dot com. Pick up. My my free practice guide about practice mistakes. You could be making then you'll you'll get my emails and all that. But if you want to fill out, the survey, and you haven't gotten the invitation just send me a message to contact it stand partners for life dot com or you can simplify it contact at SP for L dot com because I'd love to to get your voice as part of that survey too. If you've gotten invitation haven't had a chance to fill it out yet, please do that. I really want to hear from each and every one of you. And if you've done the survey, that's amazing almost a thousand people now have completed the survey for me just takes three minutes, and I've loved not only analyzing the data in a cold way. But also reading your comments for those of you who left some comments. So that's been a lot of fun anyway. So. So let's talk first about what you really want out of your concerto in an audition because oftentimes not always. But oftentimes, it's the very first thing that the committee will here in the very first thing you play. So it had better be comfortable in. You're talking about your mentor concerto, your Mozart or either. Well, that's the thing you suffer. Anybody who's wondering? And most outages yourself repertoire almost always include both. What they call Manta concerto, and and your Mozart concerto, two different two different periods or two different styles. You and usually there's a lot more choice for the romantic concerto than there will be for the Mozart. Because even though he wrote five generally they're only going to allow you to select from either two or three of his concerto. So we'll get to that. But there's more variation than in the romantic concerto selections yet most auditions you'll get a chance to play one of your concertos. I and I would say more often than not that's the romantic one. Wouldn't you say you've opened more auditions with your own Antic and Chiro than anything else? I mean, I actually I've maybe say it's fifty fifty you mean between with Mozart are starting list romantic oak. I think there's only one just never took where I didn't get to play any concerto to start. And that was my very first edition, which was Philly. Yeah. That sounds familiar, but most of the time you can count on playing one of your concertos to start. Meaning that both of them have to be comfortable the openings have to be comfortable for you. Because that's your first impression. And that's just that's by far the most important minute chill play. Yeah. Not to make it something. I mean, you know, we've talked about the fact that you can you should never feel like, you know, it's over just because he had a bad opening or something. But no, certainly not. But since I mean, this is one of the few things you have control over in the addition because the orchestra will have picked the whole list that you're playing from except for your concerto. So at least you can sort of put your stamp on right on that. Right. And that's I think that's one of the hardest things about taking it on Titian as just feeling like, you know, you're a number here. Not on the name your at a face, even because there's a screen, you know, you just end it goes by so fast. It's easy to serve just it's just flies by some like, I've played auditions or you come out and you're like. What just happened? Well, so for that reason you've heard of people you've talked to people, right? Who they want to select something out of the way to stand out. Yes. Yes. That does happen. And I think that's a mistake. Yeah. I do too. If that's your if that's your biggest reason for picking a certain piece is because other people aren't playing it then. Yeah. I also think that's a mistake on this. If you're using it because you feel like you're playing it really well people sometimes a lot of the time say this, you know, to easy and committee is going to knock going to respect me as a player if I choose the species on the list of accepted pieces. Yeah. There's some feeling like, oh, the other gonna think I can't play something harder. Right. And if you start thinking that way than you're you're dead. You're trying to appeal to the committee. But you also can't. Yeah. You can try to read their minds because that's just not going to work Royd. So I think in the end you have to it sounds trite, but you have to be yourself. And I think like you were saying if there is a piece that maybe a piece really speaks to you because it's not played all the time, and therefore you really identify with it and you play it. Well, and without a lot of self conscious feeling the night can be great. That's a win win. You know, then you're you are standing out for good reasons. I think it's weird one Prokofiev one is on lasts seen that. And it just seems strange while I was going to say, I think it's weird when they put two and not one, but. Well, we'll get we'll get to the specifics just wanted to sort of set some set some expectations for what we're talking about here with what what a concerto should be for you in the first place and stop wandering off. Okay. Heard me back in it. Shape here. Okay, then. Yeah. And in my article about violent concerto openings I wanted to run through all the major violin concerto openings figuring out where they would rank on the scale from cruise control to may you don't the lesson is in your audition. You don't want any anything that feels like mayday to to start. You're not setting yourself up for no one would do that. I mean, I think. Days until like, they gather people do they think I'm going to play Mendelssohn because nobody else's playing it. But it does seem like, okay, it's going to be so bad. You know? And then you get there, and you feel naked and that is true. So yeah, I mean, that's the importance of playing for people like knowing how you're gonna react. And and visualization. I think you're you know, you you you've got a whole article on visualizing. And I I I was like what are you talking about? But you know, the more I think about it's true. It's like even when I'm just playing some like a shift just like an ordinary one one to another note. I can tell feel like you know, you right before I play it like this feels weird. You know, I I'm going to do something strange like you've never done it before. Yeah. And even though in the moment you end up playing to you know, sometimes you'll get it. But there is something a little odd. And I think Mendelssohn falls into that category of things like probably superficially seemed like it was going to be. Okay. But like if you really sat down thought about yourself getting ice nervous as you possibly can. Yeah. You're something. Strange might happen. Yeah. You wanna? Yeah. Ferret those moments out, and we'll talk about Mendelssohn more later too. But yeah. Oh, because it's one that people learn when they're young also. You tend to learn that piece at an age when you're really fearless. And then having to play at an age where your fear fearful can be very strange. And so yeah, that piece needs a lot of seasoning. And a lot of performing if you're really going to go for it. Well, we do have a sample list to to work from an our discussion today because when I took a group of great players through preparation for Detroit symphony audition in the beginning of two thousand eighteen and that list was pretty Representative. And it was a list says these pieces are allowed and anything else is not allowed. So I figured it would be a good actually that was your idea to go from an actual audition list. So thank you for that. So here are the concertos Detroit allowed for their audition. And they wanted the first movement with credential of one of the following, and that was Beethoven Brahms divorce Jacques Mendelssohn. For coffee of to Sibelius and Tchaikovsky. And then they also wanted the first movement without Kadena, interestingly of one of the following Mozart's, and it's three four or five least three so. Yes. Yeah. Right now, it'd be salivating over like, ooh, Detroit here. I come. What may maybe let's talk about the Mozart's first because that'll be a bit of a shorter discussion. I mean, the content of those three Mozart concertos is not drastically different one to the next three has the stigma of being the student concerto. Although what I think we we've always both agreed that anything. Well play. Anybody listening right now? Just play Mozart three. You're taking Detroit. Forget about it. Stop stop foreign five right now. I mean, the I think the thought is as with the romantic insured, a you play. What you play the best right with no thought whatsoever to what someone else I e the committee is going to think about it. And. Yeah. Just you play what's comfortable, and what you play the best. I mean any peace. That's on this list is going to be great. If it's played. Well, yeah. Let's art was no dummy. Need already written two concertos? But by the time he'd written the third. It's a great piece. But yeah, the opening is not nearly as difficult as either four or five, which is a great thing. And got a lot with it. It's not like, you know, you can show your we've got a great sound. You can go to your laxed. You know, your Bronco can concern really really beautiful, and you can just produce a great sound that opening and just immediately win some people over in the first one of my favorite times hearing Pearlman live was Mozart three that was a long time ago. Probably twenty years almost and ask yourself like if you if you heard ten different recordings of Mozart three would you have a favorite like sure? So same thing. That's a it's a great piece. So that's we're putting too to bed forever. The idea that it's not made my point Mozart three. That's the way to go. Well, and you won the LA Philadelphian originally Mozart three so. Yeah. And I think also Chicago I think they also allowed. I think the I think they now maybe they only say for five my very first audition. I remember Philly. Said you could play three four or five. But when I asked my coach and mentor, William defense quality. Said that really means four or five do not show up playing three. Explains why didn't advance in the. Well, well, mystery solved all these years later. Well, I had you know, inside info, and I still well advanced. Okay. But I didn't get to the finals. Okay. The kind of like that turns my whole theory on its head. Then that was you know orchestra. You don't get inside information to advance burn. Two thousand era. Philly orchestra nine hundred ninety nine. A boston. I think was the first audition. I took where they just said four four or five. But here we are in Detroit three four or five quickly. I guess between four or five is they're they're both tough openings big differences that Mozart five is slow. It's an adagio opening and opening his is harder than it was to me Senate pretty simple the opening of five. Yeah. And then he start playing it. And you're like even now I sit down planets hard to get everything as smooth as you want. And I think it depends on what your natural strengths are. I guess playing smoothies. Maybe not my strength. Well, it's interesting. I just heard a quote, it's actually from an old colleague of ours. Eugene is a former principal oboe of Chicago. I'm still thinking about it. Actually, it was that your whatever your strengths are those are still going to be with you in an audition or under pressure, the other things may or may not be. But you're you're very strong. Your superpowers. So to speak are gonna stay with you. If one of those is just like, a nice, smooth singing sound, then no matter how nervous you're going to be Mozart five would be a great opening for you know, for me smooth. And singing can sometimes be the first thing that goes out the window one. I'm nervous. But but he's doing that's your Mozart concerto though for for auditions. So it served you served you quite well that is another episode to all right mine's always been four that a force of habit. And something about that key of d major most popular key for violin concertos. So. Yeah. And you know, you you play great Mozart for mister I have played it in a lot of audience for been every audition then. Well every audition I've taken. Yeah. I mean, it's not like well is there ever not rather just say five I feel like there has been. I thought maybe a Boston. Maybe boston. Yeah. Okay. Just five. But in fact, if if and when I've gotten the choice of which solo to start with which concerto, I would always pick Mozart I would pick them outside for between, just comfort wise. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So we should get to why why we gravitate to problems like what do you want to take this Detroit list and order? Sure, then we okay just two quick recap Beethoven Brahms Mendelssohn Prokofiev to Sibelius Tchaikovsky. So you're thinking immediately. How weird it is that they don't they won't allow Prokofiev one. Oh, that's something. I I know I had my first thought on reading out that list out loud is the I mean, the only concertos we ever hear and auditions really are Brahms Sibelius and Tchaikovsky. I mean that would cover ninety five out of one hundred auditions. Yeah. How would you feel about starting with divorce tougher it with the double stops? Oh, yeah. Do you? Do you want to do this in order? Because. Yeah, I would not feel good about starting with the. Yeah. Beethoven? I've I get asked maybe two or three times a year by someone. I'm thinking of switching to Beethoven my, and I I'm not trying to make fun because as I said I've thought about switching pieces. And usually when someone's asking me that they're saying that not feeling good with peace ex. And I thought about you know to switching to Beethoven. It's such a great piece, and I agree. It's a great piece. But man, if you're feeling nervous with peace X. Chances are Beethoven's not going to sit there any more comfortably. I'm like, I've never actually learned all Beethoven concerto. So you know, maybe there's somebody out there. Just feels great about their octaves. And what did I say about the Beethoven and my? Little article because I only only learned it for the first time. I mean truly learned just a couple of years ago. Performance with orchestra. And it was tough yet confirmed my opinion that it would not be. Agree scary opening yet, you mentioned the octaves. I mean, literally the first thing you plays and our Pezzo of octaves broken octaves. But still in that I feel like that descending chromatic. Yes. Just treacherous and. I've never really played it. So you know, I only have anecdotal evidence from like having seen season soloist get up and seem unsure themselves. They're so. Yeah. Now, here's what I wrote about it a tutti that seems to last forever, and that won't be relevant in the orchestra dishing. Because if you have it complement, of course, that'll be cut an opening our you in octaves than an entire page of sixteenth notes slurred separate, but all designed to make you look like a fool somehow this d major doesn't seem like the same keys the d major of Mozart four. I think I also wrote something later about it sort of being like the swimsuit ground in beauty pageant. Well, that's true. You know, what it is that the most concerto will make you feel that way the last thing. Most people need us to have both their concertos Sheila way. Yeah. Yeah. That's a great way of putting you're already you're forced to put yourself out there with the Mozart at least let Euro-mandate concerto be something you can sort of swim around in a little bit more. Yeah. I'm sure we'll talk about risk and reward, and there's just a lot of risk in Beethoven because of the purity of the scales. Our Peggie does the intonation so critical and kind of the best you can hope for is that singing sound intelligent phrasing. Beauty. But you know, it's going to take to solid minutes of great Beethoven playing to really leave people especially non string players. Nonviolence to leave them with a real kick us impression. Yeah. I would say that's one instance in which you can sort of try to read the committee's mind a little bit in remember that it's not. Primarily made up of violinist usually, so even if you're playing out of your mind, and great, I think that people are it might even come across the sun in easy, you know, to horrifyingly like, you know, people that doesn't have a whole lot of teeth. Now, I think that Brahms concerto really seemed like something with this a little. I mean, I think it would be not that you would ever do this. But I think it would be a piece that would be more effective in the finals where you're guaranteed to play for. Let's say fifteen twenty minutes or whatever. And you're definitely going to play into bunch of styles. And you're only playing next to other really high level players, then I think that you probably a little more comfortable at that point. Yes. But nobody would ever you wouldn't play different concerto for the finals or something. Like that is just I think that's a tough first round. That's I wonder if anyone's ever done that like change their concerto from round around especially in those one of those additions like the rounds are separated by a couple of months. I wonder that's never something. I've thought to do. But if you have let us know share your stories. Okay. We come next Brahms, which is both of our that would be both of our choice from this list. Although if given the choice you would play Bartok too. Yeah. I admittedly feel a little bit at a disadvantage when I can't play Bartok. Let's talk about that a little. Yeah. Why Bartok just been playing it for so long? I mean, okay. So I think I roundly denounced the idea of playing something different. I I think it's how I got started with our talk that you know, it's not a lot of people play it. I think it's. Yeah. I I wanted to stand out. So such as Bartok, then I felt like it was a piece that it plays to my my what I perceive as my strength. So I agree. And it's also important that I mean, even if I didn't agree that those were your strengths. But I do. But even if I didn't the fact that you believe they are that is so important, right? I think that it's a concerto. That sounds impressive to people who don't necessarily know all the violent repertoire. Yeah. And you know, it is it is a it's a difficult opening, but it's. Not opening on the g string, at least the way. Most people play it on the string. Although not Leonidas Cavaco s-. The last time we saw first position. Sure. How many they'll go to? Yeah. Well, they had to play the whole thing. So cut them a little slack. But the way you play it. It's a big big thing on the G string. And although I spent years having to dial back how I play the opening I think I was thought of as like no guns blazing. And it's actually just a nice opening. Doesn't have to be like me doesn't. Yeah. I like the way you your Email. You're like the villain in the old west you. Blow up in the saloon doors like. Everyone else stops Hart show Tara vote oak with the buck. So that's how I used to treat it. And then you know, I actually lost since I think because it was too much so saloon. Yeah. I think they were like we don't really want someone who's going to just come in just railroad over the rest of the section. It's bringing back memories about why I chose. I think I felt like it was kind of a stand out in. It sounds impressive. It's like a lot of bang for your buck. You know, you're gonna have people in the community. Hey, that's, you know, so that's a cool piece. That's you know, you're not gonna forget you if you play that. Well, yeah. Yeah. Good way. I'm bad way. I guess but nowadays it's just like played it so many times keep doing it. So that's the key. I mean, it's it's a comfortable piece for you. In addition to those other things so because I I don't want to go back and scrub out all our audio about don't play piece just to stand up just spent most of the last few minutes, saying go ahead and do that. But do that if it if it feels right and it fits you. What was the match in a couple of levels? I felt like it wasn't just that that was the case. But I was really worried about getting lost in a sea of just okay Brahms concertos on that's next on the list the Brahms concerto. I've always played in which you play when you can't play Bartok. I mean, I don't think there's a violinist alive that doesn't consider that one of the greatest if not the greatest violin concerto. But it's always in the top. I would say the top two if you're going to have a top. Two Brahms is going to be one of them. You mean evolved just favorite concertos? Yeah. Let's say best like concerto concertos that the violent were world. Couldn't be without. Sure. And it's funny. 'cause like we'll you think about playing it for an addition. It's a so easily segment -able into like, you've got the first I page at first cases odds are they're not going to get to the theme. They'll be like. All right. We've got a few measures in. You know, scaleback your preparation proportionately from their Emma than work on the condenser. But it's a little tougher that way because checkoffs you just goes and goes, we'll right although that also has several predictable place where people what stop but. Yep, rubs it just seems like yeah, you can spend a lot of time working on that. I. Age. And that's and you have to shine. That's the dangerous that it just it starts at pretty much maximum intensity and gradually. Let's up rather than something. Like the tchaykovsky that starts with comfort and gradually ramps up. Right. I guess it starts comfort. I just never I never like Tchaikovsky Bill get to that later. But in terms of playing I mean, you almost anybody could string together a few good bars of tchaykovsky, even if they're not totally warmed up. It's true. It's true. But that also I think is a negative. It's like anybody could you know, so a year. A year. Because you can do it. But tend to agree. I mean, check out ski gets going quickly enough. I mean, you can show what you need to show quickly enough that that's why it's such a popular concerto as well. But Brahms it's like that very first bar. You're already you're jumping into the deep end, you know, and. And it has backfired on me me too. Yeah. The very second bar is octopus. Yeah. And then I realized one of the biggest problems if you will rush through that I measure, they're nervous. And they were either that or they like consciously slow it down. So it's super tedious you. I mean, it takes so much poise and actually weren't weren't you a little bit hardened. I know I was when we recently had Pinkas superman come in and play the Brahms concerto with us and coming off stage after that first performance he was mentioning how he hadn't performed with orchestra and a while. And he said just takes so much poise. Yeah. He did playing it again. We'll, you know, he's a who who knows if he really meant it or he was saying it for our benefit, but he said playing it again tomorrow night, and we'll sort of I'll remember more what that's like or I'll I'll get more of that back. Yeah. If you're only public performing is auditioning, and you're only doing that a few times a year. Then it's hard to expect yourself. You shouldn't expect yourself to just bang out those first ninety seconds of Brahms concerto. Like like, it's nothing. I'm not gonna not gonna be doing that anytime. So high reward high risk definitely something to be lived in for while the Brahms concerto. It's a great piece never disappoints as a piece, but that's one for sure just all speak. If I may for the for non violinists on committees. They're almost always shocked at how scratchy that piece sounds in auditions it is just so easy to try to go for too much and to lose sight of the sound quality issues in the pacing paintings, really tough. Yes. With or without accompaniment because if you're without accompaniment, it's easy to get on moored and just switch tempos all over the place. Yeah. I mean, I can almost never do. I hear those this sixteenth notes in the tempo that this person opened right? A peace with and then it cer- summers in it's always very jarring since see that's a pitfall for sherbet. But despite that we both always want. Play brahms. So. Yeah. I think for a while. It was stubbornness on my part. It's yeah. It's probably just stubborness for me to him in the this list. There's no one's gonna tell me. I can't play Brahms. Even if it's. Well, I. Yeah. So let's move onto divorce. Jack Norman, it's not as if any of these other pieces would be any better. Divorced huck. I just I would just think why. If it really, you know, maybe your check, and it really speaks to you know, if it really speaks to you and it's comfortable, then that's great. But that is a tough opening to. Yeah. I was thinking the double stops this crazy run. Well, let me see what I wrote about it back. We didn't say what I wrote about problems. But I said nothing about Bronx. But divorced, doc you enter with a four note chord. That's actually the start of an expressive motif in thirds and asymmetrical phrase leads to an up and down series of our Pez ios that ends with a high e. You know? Thanks. I gave it a seven point three out of ten in terms of difficulty. So then point number two, I gave seven point five degree of difficulty for the opening alone that we're just talking about the. I mean, this I wrote this a couple of years ago. I mean, the only things above that are vignette ski one Beethoven. Yeah. Why isn't that on the list Brahms and Paganini Mendelssohn, which we'll get to so far talked to was high up on the list and just below. It was divorced Jack. Yeah. You know, he was a violist divorce Huck. But not virtuous violinist and his stuff just doesn't lie. So well, and that you know, that the first ninety seconds of solo violin playing Jacques is broken up by a lot of rests, and it's hard to get your momentum is just kind of a wandering opening especially without accompaniment. Yeah. That's right. Because it's very like call and response. Yeah. Yeah. So it takes a while takes a while to get going again, you know, coming in really playing it. Well, that obviously would make a great impression because nobody literally nobody else would be playing for shock. You know? Yeah. And for me, this is stupid but string crossing rapid stream crossings. Well, that's hard. They are one of the first things that's gets super Taff when I'm really nervous. So is our patio's those really faster pressures in the beginning sort of beat served deadly for me. And this is totally worth though, says it doesn't mean anything. But teaching was you know, I teach all these concertos and diversion is the one that I really don't feel confident with like if I'm not warmed up, and I'm just starting a lesson or something and I'm trying to demonstrate it. I always sound bad playing devore's oxide that for me is a big red flag again because it has to like, I described should ideally be something. That you feel like you could just leap into on warmed up. And that's what they said about a Ulysses s grant. They said he no they said he had four o'clock in the morning, courage that you could. Yeah. Just blow a Trump and his ear at four in the morning wake them up, and he's he's right there on his horse in the battlefield. Divorce accident the piece that would do that for me? Okay. So so now we come to Mendelssohn. Which probably said enough about Mendelssohn. Well, we we just said it's hard. But eight of the funny thing is that it doesn't. Yeah. It doesn't sound that harder. You leave learn it when you're twelve versus near like, it's not anything learned with your twelve must be not that hard. But some. Yeah. As you said, you learn it when you're getting more fearless point in your life. And yet, it's funny. You know, this is the concerto that I've most often considered switching to if I was going to switch. Yeah. I mean, I'm sure you do a great job of. But yeah, what stops me? Okay. So here's what I wrote in toughest concerto openings article. So the classic short tutti dilemma that. We saw in Glazunov civilians and Mozart five meaning and this is again, not super relevant for the orchestra additions. But it's hardly any to at all. So that can be good or bad, depending on how you feel a soaring theme it gives way to scales in our pegos as Beethoven and end of page fusillade of octave. Arpels? Ios both solid and broken. And then I said, you know, you're probably surprised to see this get the ten point zero degree of difficulty. But I said, it's a simple hyphen said the first page of Mendelssohn was the hardest thing in the entire island repertoire plan tune. So therefore, it automatically got the ten point. Okay. I might quibble with that as as did several people in the comments, you crazy Palestinians, much worse. But as opposed to Beethoven, I would much more readily play Mendelssohn in an audition. I just think it shows more more quickly it lies better. I mean, it's funny. I would choose Beethoven. Actually, I the thing is that I'd never really played Beethoven. So it's possible. If I did that I would go running back to Mendelssohn butter. I had to choose between those two I think I think there's just a couple of dealbreakers Romy a mental thing that the the quick Boches are Peggie like I turn around really easily with that stuff. So weakness of mine. Already string changes are my forte. You've probably wondering how the hell I have a job. But I know. Yeah. I I think one of my. You know, strengths is just knowing what wait I can punch. So. Yeah. Do brilliantly with either one of those. But I don't know. Yeah. Mendelssohn? And maybe again, maybe it's because I've taught it more often. I just feel like I could more easily pick up violin? And of course, you can't. But yeah, definitely high rescue. You've got to play that dead into it's worthless. And for that reason, we pretty much never hear it in additions. Even just thinking about that has this is I just know when I'm talking about the Poteen, just oh, yeah. Jefferson. String crossings. Yeah. No. All right next. We've got Prokofiev's to actually I don't think I ever learned Prokofiev to either yet for me this strange one to include on the list. I almost feel like it was it came into fashion. Well, hyphen it's really helped popularize it. And I almost feel like a lot of these concerto. Lists sort of came into being around those years. This thing happened to me college that it didn't involve too. But scarred me or made an impression on me, depending how you look at it. But so they'd a concerto competition, and I think it was like he could play whatever PC wanted or something thinking too weird. And so whatever I hot canary. I was so excited because I'd never seen something like. So free form. So I like, oh Shostakovich tonight, low Shostakovich charter, and I'm gonna I was learning it, you know, like on my own, which is, you know, felt so decadent and amazing to just be learning something on my own who's at Harvard or Julia at Harvard, so, you know, at that point I'd been so like, you know, micromanage in terms of my learning of pieces, and I was like it was like, hey know, you can't tell me about we can do now. Anyway. So having screw time learning, and I decided to play for the competition, and then, you know, true to form like, I just didn't even find competent. But I think he were it was like optional. But like like stupid, of course, he should have an accommodates like so I didn't show up with one. Yeah. I played, and I think has started because companies has started with a the third movement that could ENZA figured there's no companies there. So whatever, you know. And then I knew segue into the fourth movement, and then, but I thought I play out whatever I thought. Played. Well, I always thought I played well back, then I guess, but you know, afterward. I didn't win afterwards. Somebody conductors set to me like I think people were confused like they didn't know what this piece was. And there was no accompaniment, and they know what was going on because you're playing Connecticut. And it was like I I was indignant. And it was like, well, why the hell should that matter? But there was like there was a lesson. It was like you have to you can't just come out and play something where people are easily confused, you know, especially if it's held up against something that's much more standard. So I think I was a little spooked from that point on. I don't think it's unreasonable to to think that you know. Yeah. People are going to. I mean, we know what Prokofiev second concerto is. But, you know, some people in the committee may not have heard did we don't hear that often work certainly in. It's not so often played really as a solo concerto with orchestra anymore. Yeah. I mean, you know, what happens, and it's a great piece share. But I do think that opening couple minutes don't show enough. And I think you know. You know, people are not only confused because they don't hear that often. But also thinking, I don't really know what's going on here. But it's not the they might just might just be a scratch. You know, they'd be like, well, let's let's hear something else. And decide what we think based on that. So I think you're missing an opportunity. Maybe you're punting to the the experts to make the decision for you. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, hey, that might may strategy to maybe feel that you're excerpts are just like awesome. You know, you you don't feel great about any of the concertos, and you feel like, hey, I'll just play something and all sound fine. And I'm gonna wait to impress them. Yeah. I mean, if that's true. That's a. That's out there, the I'm not someone. I'm sure a lot of people who've won, you know, plan for coffee concertos splinter to. No, I mean, you you could win a job playing any of these for sure says our very opinionated take on on all this buzzer. I mean, the fact is that you could listen to one hundred auditions and not here. One Prokofiev to this pretty rare. The last two on the list are along with Brahms, the most popular Sibelius and checkoff ski there. Also. I mean, jeez. Every piece on this list has Haifa's stamp on it somewhere Schakowsky was popular before high photography, but a lot more people play Chuck played Cibeles after heights did. That sabinas popular partly I think because it also takes a little bit of time to open up, and you can get comfortable in the sounds. You know, it's not fireworks. Renting with you know, probably if I didn't play Brahms play Scibilia suit say because you know, there's still it shows a lot. I think a lot on that first page. Yeah. And it's not unreasonably difficult. You know, but it sounds. It's flashy. It's yeah. It's it's I think something can you can sorta sink your teeth into when a good way like an comfortable lay. Yeah. So the probably my second choice if I had to choose something other than problems or by truck. Yeah. I mean, it almost I don't want to say it takes too long to get going because great playing great playing. But I think you know, if you are prone to the kind of nerves that. Well, the the started inhabiting the the basic sound those first few lines can be really long if you're making the same kind of sound all the time. So you there has to be that flexible because those are long notes long, bows, it's a little bit like the opening to Mozart five something has to happen there. Something to to look forward to sort of know, yourself know, your strengths and weaknesses. Whereas kofsky the last consider on the list. I mean, you're changing bows all the time. It's maybe the most meat and potatoes of all the pieces on this list. And the way what's the deal with Sibelius could ends at. Oh, if you're talking about playing the whole he like, you know, because you have to consider the need is really hard and many many times people have asked me. Okay. So I'm playing Sibelius. Now, they say I could Enzo are they really going to hear the good ENZA. Yes. And that could ends is really difficult and not so often practiced thoroughly. Issues with both changes string changes. But you know, it's nice once you've been playing for a few minutes already. So it's not as if you're going cold. No, you're probably not going to ask you to start have condenser Zaho claim it could happen. But they probably wouldn't right tchaykovsky. I it's funny. If told me I had I would have to play Tchaikovsky in my next auditions I would be nervous only because I feel like of all the pieces that is one that the most people can sound impressive on which I know he said was not supposed to be the main consideration. But I feel like they're players with really limited strengths who can really put together. A great sounding or at least quite a good sounding Tchaikovsky. Yeah. I'm your standards here. I can be expecting fits to come out. So somebody playing clean cleanly kind of in tune. Not it's not the opposite. But I mean, I feel like even if someone is not super clean, maybe not super tune. Give it enough. Verve. Tchaykovsky combined plant. It would have a lot of might not be so in tune. But yeah. I'm not talking about you thinking about like if I had to play Tchaikovsky high would play plant, and it would not be safe. You know? No. And I think you mean euro complete player, but I have no doubt that you would make that you would just play a better Tchaikovsky. And then me, and it was I mean low that's not what that's why. I don't play it. I really always had a hard time strike housing. I would never have chosen partial partially because I don't love Jake hausky as a composer which. Yeah. Hopefully, some of you aren't just terrain exit your phone right now or something. But I just I never really I never loved checkoffs came out on top of it. The shouldn't influence how I feel about the opening, but I did feel like it was always so hard to play because it could end is in the middle, which is weird arrangement, and then gets into more difficult key after the Connecticut over so it's like, we'll just you know, you get through the first however, many minutes, and then you get through the condenser, which is hard. And then then it gets. Order. So it's like we'll first one was already so long, and it just getting harder and harder for me. If it will also until I think I had a bad concerto competition moment like pre-college or something sounds like a bad break up. It was bad. Yeah. It was like it was the piece for that competition. I was like fourteen or fifteen or something didn't go. Well, so I think ever since I don't know gonna play it. We'll have you talking about additions where you have to prepare the entire movement. Well, no. But even like, even when you don't think my feelings about I just feel like if you don't love the whole P. You don't move the whole movement. Even like, it's tough to wanna do a great job on the first two pages, or whatever, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. I think you have to love the piece overall they have good feelings about it. Like, I just I don't know. I never had great feelings about it. So and I certainly don't I don't think it's easy. I didn't mean to imply that, you know, saying that I think more people could sound good on it, certainly not an easy piece. It just yet. If there was something else on the list that I thought I could sound good on. And you know, in my case, I think that's Brahms. Then I would sooner choose that. Yeah. So I guess in submarine, there's a lot that goes into choosing your piece in you shouldn't discount your personal feelings about it. Because in the end, it's going to be a personal performance, obviously. And I think if you don't love the piece it's gonna come across you have to have a real conviction about your performance. And it is a performance is beset. It's not it's not just a bunch of people listening behind a screen, you, you know, you're not just proving you know, you can play the violin. Like you. You want to show that he was something really like a unique individual. To say, so yeah, maybe I mean, we've talked a lot of details here. And as you said, there's a lot that goes into it. But it could also be a simple thing to write that you pick a great piece and all all the pieces on this list are great pieces pick one that somehow you identify with. And that you play well, especially the opening that there's some comfort in the opening. Yeah. Not to some place. You're not comfortable better. Get comfortable. That's what the practice room is for. But hey, it's just it's really just two pages. And yes, if they say could ends that they might hear the density so practicing. Well, thank you as always for hanging out with here at stand partners for life and really having fun this year, bringing more episodes to you. We're looking forward to covering a lot of topics that you've requested. I haven't forgotten those of you that wrote in when we first started the show haven't forgotten the topics that you wrote in about and thank you as always for your comments when you write in and most of all for your time and spending it with us. So look forward to talking with you again on the next stand partners for life.

Mozart Beethoven Brahms Mendelssohn P Brahms Jacques Mendelssohn Beethoven Mozart Sibelius Tchaikovsky Detroit Bartok boston Philly Connecticut Titian Beethoven Brahms Akiko Nathan Nate Royd Beethoven
Benjamin Britten 1: About Benjamin Britten

Classics for Kids

05:59 min | 2 years ago

Benjamin Britten 1: About Benjamin Britten

"In one thousand nine hundred thirteen. Cecilia is the patron saint of music. Benjamin Britten came from Lowe's toft a town house all the Britain Children Barbara Bobby Beth and Benny of classical music Bah Beethoven Brahms she said Britain would ling pages with DOTS and connecting them with long curvy lines it looked pretty and it's going to make his living the first job he got after graduating from the conservatory it was clear that England was going to go to war with Germany Benjamin Britten was who America he went back to England on board ship on the way home Britten wrote a choral piece it minds is about a fisherman from the same neck of the woods doors seashore where Britain grew Halasz asked Benjamin Britten to compose an opera for the occasion glory. Yana conductor and an excellent pianist here he is at the keyboard accompanying his broom. Benjamin so Lewin I write classics for kids and produce it with Tim Lantern at WG UC.

Benjamin Britten Britain Bah Beethoven Brahms Cecilia England Barbara Bobby Beth Tim Lantern Benny Halasz Lewin America Lowe Germany
Classical Classroom, Episode 215: Trs Bien! Stphane Denve Teaches the History of French Music

Classical Classroom

1:11:44 hr | 1 year ago

Classical Classroom, Episode 215: Trs Bien! Stphane Denve Teaches the History of French Music

"Hey everyone it's station. I know I know it's been a while to be fair. I've been super busy I just finished moving and then there's been work in park core classes and that international spy mission I had to do real quick I've been training for a race. Writing a book have kitten. Anyway, to make up for my absence, I have to exciting presents for you. I is the epic episode that you're about to hear where in our guest. Stefan. Enough gives a complete overview of the entire history of French classical music in one episode. Amazing right in for your next president. Well, you're going to have to wait until our mid show break for that one for now don't forget to subscribe to rate and review our podcast wherever you listen and i. think that's a go. There's a rumor going around that classical music can be. Here, in the classroom, we beg to differ Beethoven. The I, did it classical music is where we have to feel restricted. We have to act a certain way that's not going to be helpful going forward. Shaking with excitement. So many great parts of the opera. Play his favorite spot in the first one the browns. As and Megaton. How to be classical music rockstars because there's not enough of that in this business choose Maly with blogging the. Mandolin. Might distortion pedals. I don't change my voice. Talking, to class. I'm playing classical music now I mean yeah. Same twelve notes. That's what's so cool about it. I'm basically a classical music newbie and trying to learn all I can about the music come learn with me and the classical music experts I invite into the classical classroom. Hello everyone. Welcome to the classical classroom. Dacia Clay and talking to me from Brussels where he is music director of the Brussels Philharmonic is defined enough. He's also music director of the Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra principal guest conductor of the Philadelphia Orchestra and Director of the Center for Future Kestrel. Repertoire. When we got him out of breath just seeing he's very passionate about French, music including emerging French music and he's got a recent piece of exciting news, which is that he's going to be conducting the twenty twenty Nobel Prize concerts to fund welcome to the classical classroom. Thank you this show happy to be with you. So first of all, congratulations on the Awesome News, how did how how the that come to be with the Nobel Prize? Concert. Would I do have a long term relationship with Royal Tokyo Philarmonic Orchestra who usually plays for this great ceremony but it's really an honor and a privilege that this year they asked me following a greatly of fantastic conductors to do this prestigious concerts, which is on TV at eight o'clock all Sweden, it's very exciting. That is very exciting I. Didn't even know that there was An Orchestra concert to be conducted. It's like a huge deal at an also another question for you I was out of breath just listing all of the jobs that you're doing why hold down so many jobs at once as a conductor. Sleep. Because I have a hard time to say, no I love. and. Those brighter. Came to be, and indeed I added them but. No it's possible I mean a lot of conductors have one orchestra in the US and one in Europe. So I'm also having that and apart from suffering from jetlag I really enjoy to a to visit all over the world and Just to do that all the time and so yes, I don't sleep a lot except now of course, because of this terrible times. Yes. This this horrible pandemic situation really has to stop I'm I'm going to vote for that So but today. Since we've got you trapped at home. The lucky thing is that I have you here to teach me all about French music. So before we get into your teaching me, the finer points about fringe music. Told me why it is that French music like, why? Why do you just like it? What about it appeals to you? When I don't want to sound factory rotate because I, I love the wall of them a European I, but it is true that I. am French as you could hear for my little accent and I happen to conduct all over the world indeed, much more abroad friends and then in France and then I realized that. A lot of people were expecting me to have very clear ideas about the French style and I started to really studied extremely thoroughly and and try to really know what it is what is distinctive and I go to thirty passionate about indeed trying to explain and trying to communicate the French to orchestras all over the world. That's why. I love that I am I'm so focused on the on this but that said I still connect from every country and from every pair of music I'm a big appetite for everything but being a French, it was quite natural to to have a special relationship with future. Okay. That's actually a great place to start. So what? What is french-style like where where did it start what we're its origins? I would say, let's start with all the the words that could describe it over the Hornets three of music. So what you hear often about French music additive colour food, it is lied the there is transparency. Of sensuality with complex hammered eve, it has of visual style leads very articulated very clear. It's elegant. It's CONSI- his humour. So you hear all of that and I have to say this as totally to do just to start with with the penalty of French people in holy story I think we do have these kind of. Quality our way to behave and to speak to each other. and. If you may to just here's something which is absolutely quit tensions especially if like Mrs Rodwell Queen. Tae. sensually. Quintessential Industry French I would like to. Propose. You a very short except for a melody of Prank. It's assumed that he composed and explain himself recording the piano with his musical partner Pierre. Back it's like New Year. It's about actually a place in the nineteenth century where people went to Kano to. Painted by whole new art with painted by Monet, and somehow this little song just give you a pastel feeling of what? East. So let's not. You. All. WHO Aweso. Boss owner. Who Off? Fog. I feel like you could have edith piaf singing that song and it would feel totally right. You're absolutely right huge tradition of French songs and that it had been always the case in his story you know we you go in the medieval times have. Giancarl, for instance, wrote a lot of phones. Wait was difficult to realize if it is actually just popular music or already kind of classical music. The way we we mean it, and as you could hear, it has to do with the french-language. The fresh language is extremely co fool have very stable vowels you know in America we say wonder. You have a lot of tonic accent, a lot of. Change of clothes in the in avowals and for us, it's very precise like a button you push our ooh e all. And right away there you have a sense of a very clear different, rainbow-coloured and. I. Think. A lot of the French title comes from the French language itself and from the origin of the French language which is letting that's really interesting. Yeah. Because when I think about people speaking in French, I think about like a lot like Italian where I like easy people speaking with their hands and it's very like expressive is very and it's effective in Italian, which is a sister language. From French you have a lot of tonic accent you know and French doesn't have that friendships much much more original and it is a key thing you know normally in Italy did in chairman in in. Many languages. You have those tonic accent insisting on something and if you hear French before sticking what you hear actually. Blah Blah. Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah you have this kind of very even resume of sounds coming and without this direction to amend point to a tonic accent. And this comes from a very early time as well. I think the birth of the French title comes from Vocal Music Church music time ago. What's what's a good example of of something like old like where we can I, hear that thing that you're talking about That's a good question actually. If you maybe we should compare to have a clear view about the differences compared to very conflicting sometimes. Literally conflicting culture in the Path which is the gem cure and the French couture. And so if you hear actually German church music from, let's say the Sixteenth Century for instance, you would hear a music influenced by protests and calvinism music and it is. Very, very cold actually, it's a lot of Cohan's which means a lot of people thinking the same word at the same time and form very clear harmonies and to be together unique to create a sense of pearls that help you to have a clear direction to the next beat the next chord and I would like to listen I to that to the German style. Of Music. With maybe a piece by you Hakim. Dicker. Okay and you sort of saying that. A vertical sound because you're. Colomer like everything is sorta like everybody's at the same time. That's what you mean. Exactly. So that's the Germans and obliged you to have a clear purse to have to. Okay. So now, let's let's cooper that with the French church Rubik almost of the same time, we'd be regularly on music, which is totally mono, Nick. It's actually one melody and it's totally original. Let here on the Metro, for instance. Only. Okay I, think I hear what you're. You're talking about. So this. This music this French music is like sort moving all over the place as it's going along. It's like how much of a free it's much more. Drew a lot of. Tiny little. Change of articulation and. Not actually with a regular pulse and it doesn't have this kind of vertical aspect already. There you can see the birth of this kind of Oriental french-style where everything is more like a drawing than actually something with a clear vertical perse. I see it's Kinda like chained up at SORTA like free to move about. Yes. Where that that sort of German music hearing is very like To tick, tick, tick, tick. And so it fits perfectly. I would say with a little bit of a cliche but still cliche sometimes have. Already with the fact that German coocher lack organization likes of. People follow the rule of and and French be put. I'm afraid I'm undisciplined and have this kind of free way and the already there in this church music, you can feel that the music and and and if we really think to more polyphonic music, you would still hear that it's actually quite not always following a reciprocal pattern that would just create a purse and. And that is already in the style of French. Also. You certainly know that the French people are people actually with Russia who Actually decided to use and sing with. French selfish universal fish. Fish is. When you name the not. So do me fat so So it comes from of course, it was from Latin music it was instead of Ood Rameez Festival. And when I think music since I am a child, I learned to use the name of the note and when I vocalise vocalized with me all me. and. There as well from a very early age or French people have the habit that every note has a Colo because all do is not the same as a way of me, and so I think it's a lot when for instance, Gem Music to to compare for instance. American music when you vocalise collide on one sound because you don't say. You don't do that. You don't do that but. Childhood, for instance, I permanently just a youthful fish and surprised sometimes the. American orchestras when I when I say okay let's take these phrase I know the method always. I extremely fast because it's in the way of speaking as well to stick very fast in France relate very clearly very quickly. So I think the the the birth of french-style comes from the church music, the Gregory and music, and from the selfish the which we call the name, the notes interesting. You did that show fast that was amazing. Anecdote which Sometimes when I do the Deficit, Khloe there is a great effect at the beginning with the clients and the strings litter and the flutes and and I always want. To play very precisely. So I said Oh please can you please do meteorologist? I really. Don't do it to show of, but you did happen that some orchestras are ones that she got in. Funny just applauded me like. Genuinely because they were amazed by the speed of. Avenue, but that's Just in my Is I mean. So basically everyone in music and France can do that but. You dazzled Americans okay. So I WANNA. Go back to something that you were talking about and and like I've a lot of people in love, musicians and composers and conductors that I've talked to you talk about color in an music and I kind of like just intuitively understand what you mean there but. Is there a way to describe it for for maybe somebody who doesn't like color like this is music audio. There's nothing visual about it like you have. How do you? Because indeed is quite strange that we always use metaphors to speak about something but I would say it's a little bit like when you describe wine. You would speak about the different flavor, but also the texture of the wine and you will be influenced by the caller itself of the Wind I. Think it applies to music very where I often compare music to. Befriend and And I like both and so the fact is, as I said, before from an early age, they were this idea of colouring the notes coloring the articulation of the notes with little. Little notes that you add that that give some coloration of attacks of the nuts, and then it evolved in the way you would use a group of instruments and very early in the Barak music you know in the seventeenth century when. Started to really use big group of instruments this study to. Organize. These instruments in a way that you would have a variety of sounds a variety of Tom and I suppose as early as in the Louis the fourteenth periods with Lou leave the famous composer Louis were Italian. But actually really states in infringe that we consider him a French and he was right away from that time starting to really use the group the woodwinds the peckish. Strings in a way that would just like a painter change know the Colo. so maybe you want to hear some of it. Yes I do but So if I can maybe try to articulate what you're getting. So basically it's kind of like. Making a painting. And you've got like these colors sort of on your Palette, and then you would mix certain colors together to get other colors. So you're saying like composers are sort of doing that with with the instruments and with the Timbre and with it the way that you mix the different sounds to get different moods and. Stuff like that. And and I would not say of course that it's only French. But let's say we have certainly from already the style of particular focus. On this way of offering variety you know using tire that are very different that really a will not mix in a way that would make everything the same broncos like when we were children we. Together and everything become one dark color and. We always try to organize it that you could actually hear the different colors together and to create this big palette that you can still see. So it's not. Only mixing. Let let's let's let's maybe here. The Miami. Of Two. This sounds very patriotic. means. You can you? Tell Him. And then. The forecast draw with for the trumpet. And then having to the. Follows and fruits and. Yeah, I see it's all sort of like you could almost say different flavors to break. Exactly. Exactly the right way to describe it. To just give you different flavors and the have different colors offered with the same kind of material of music, the same melodies. But then suddenly you add some fluids to give some harmonic. Sometimes you remove and you just keep the becker shown and so it's really you're using the forces that you have in front of you as a pilot. What's what's another good example of that color to me if I were describing, it would be well actually don't know what color irritate it was, but it just sounded very like patriotic 'em like. I Dunno like bombastic. You know and and like that was sort of like the major, the major theme going on that piece, and then they're like little breaks for sort of lakeside notes you know. So, yeah. Like how would you describe that? What the fact is very early in the Baroque time in French people started to use reported titles and try to describe them in music. So for instance, this is the march, the Combat Tansu, basically the march of the of the soldiers. So that's why you heard kind of vindicative music and this kind of almost war-style energy, and so the music was trying to illustrate in a visual way what the words are what? And you can go much more extreme and I would like to offer you an example which is totally incredible. I'm fascinated by. It's an excerpt from a Bali without text without words. That's how it's called officially written in seventeen thirty seven by Phiri rebel, and it's called the villa more describing the the beginning of the earth and the earth. Elements. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Earth fire water wind and it starts with a cows with with. The Earth at the start is. And and what I found fascinating is that totally against any musical rule of the time of harmony and Rebel actually use the orchestra in front of him as indeed away to a to describe in musical way the visual effect of chaos, and you will actually use the code but all the nuts, it may be the first cluster ever written. In history of music. And please listen to this crazy beginning, which is so dependent. I. Mean You could have been the twenty th century music for for it's kind of very. Violent and totally. Imaginative wait to describe the chaos here is. Oh Okay I just have to say. I think Stravinsky maybe borrowed a little bit from this piece with the beginning of the spring right like. that. I like the the chaos exactly the repetition. The flutes describing the water. And then you will hear the things doing the fire. Against the water what? The fire. And then some weaned and. It is indeed. Just an incredible piece showing that the focus already then in seventeen thirty, seven Wolf on the visual distraction. Is. Like You know like, Stravinsky that that writer springing listeners you don't know this is crazy modernist piece black audiences went bonkers when I heard it because it was it was like this It was considered very new and. Shocking you know. But this piece that was written in like the early seventeen hundreds was basically already doing that. That's crazy. Yeah. Two centuries before. kind of effects where already happening and that's quite quite fascinating indeed, and I'm glad you bet the. With the Sackville suppose the end of. Of the right of because he. Is. Comparable in its violence and description. Inventiveness. To because. Like that whole idea of chaos captured in music like this somebody was already thinking about that. In the seventeen hundreds so. It continues and and I would say French composer will. Always try to use your after in the most imaginative way, and it's quite interesting that all over the years the French music concentrated more on the on something describing the war describing net, sure more and speaking about the man and the fee. Like interesting that German music for instance will always kind of concentrate on the very pure idea of music. Expressing the. Soul torments of. The metaphysical question and While we French somehow where law interested to describe something like. The painting where you know in a visual way and and for me, the birth of the really great specific French attrition is they'll use that is, of course, the man Oh we have to hear some of that. Where barriers? Of course a very early I, mean at the time where Beethoven? Basically just. Finishing the night of infamy bail US actually very soon right a piece, which is incredible if you compare to to to that the cell phone fantastique which has a real story once again it's it's the scenario it going to kind of. Drama without words and it's incredible to imagine that values will invent something. So radical and for instance, if you. It's the beginning of the fifth movement called the thought in which Sabah their us will kind of describe. Home movie scene with which is on the broom flying, and you will hear some evil thumb de creatures laughing hysterically. Wear defined that I mean ECLECTIC psychedelic music. So let's you. Already. Line of Chill. Double Bass. Sounds like a bad addition if I may say. Then, you have this kind of. Ductile. Neck Strangely Tiller. Most ruthless. Ritchie's. PASSING BY AND THE NEW With grief and not you like if you hear a Formula One year but then look. Back to these. Very important. Very. Which? It is. So. So this is this is really interesting to the point that you brought up about the difference between French and German composers where like the French it seems like. Were from really really early. Tie Am like looking outward at the world and describing feelings about whether you're seeing around them as opposed to starting in word like sort of starting from that place and thinking about thoughts they're. Feeling based. It's more like emotional. Apt Emotional. You can have in many different ways of. Definitely Impressions. Word and look fascinating that you have back writing this very abstract is you know the preludes, Fugu. This very kind of so not very formal and it's fantastic in for me. US NBA. was only Bollywood of instead enough. I mean, it's fantastic and eats it. We abstract you can playback with, of course, how cold it was return or you can play with a modern piano complete with a group of saxophone of strings, what it will feel sound good because. The music is actually in the not itself and in the reflective aspect of the north while at the time of you had people like Cou Powell. wrote that we're always describing with very poetic title, Lebed hike, MR, youth. Full of impressions, music and and I think I say the word impressionism it's It's what? Of course often people think about when they think about. French. About the impressionist painter and this often think about the impressionist music that was composed from the very end of the nineteenth century and beginning of twentieth, which is a golden era of the French time because it's really a. Very, iconic way of showing what french-style is. So I think most of us understand what impressionism is thinking about painting. They're very sort of like often when you look at the paintings kind of blurry and away the they're not, they're not the clear images that painters before had been making. But then more like visual impressions of scene, they use a lot of sort of muted colors. So it's almost like like a blurry gives you a real like an impression of seen as opposed to clear distinct image. So so how do you know what when you hear it in music? But the fact is you're absolutely right to give this impressions. What to Pinto did is youth this little Touch of different colours and. Colo exist because of light, right the light itself that actually allow. Calls to exist. and. It's the Colo's. Reporting the light that give moods and the emotions of the different moods. Of course fascinating to see that somebody like Monet painted famously. KC. The wall of. Times just changing the hour of the day to get just a different mood. Thanks to the light itself the change of the Colo of due to the light, and what happened is that in music it's it's not literally painting, but suddenly, there is a moment in time where it's very interesting to see that the goal expressive goal as the same, how to show in music the lights, and then what for instance have always have. Deed was to use little waves of Colo's that we're not very clear because it's a lot of not very fastly played and mixing them with let's say gleason do of of half to the Hulu and creating wave at different speed in order to express the light and when you hear the beginning of Daphne's unclear way the fame of big belly of Hovel. Wonderful Muster worked you will really physically feel the dawn and feel actually. The arrival of light like the time right before the sun arrived on the horizon. Let's hear that. See here in the debate you very slow to. Ties distracted by the. then. We have these doctors within the not. A lot of a fast notes in the food. And the harmonious. Giving you this kind of? Obscure feeling. Getting more and more lights. And then you start from the base. And then dividing. The birth birth. Fruits. Oh the birds. gooding chills. Who Last? Get Higher Moberg. Natural away. and. Then the wave. Of flight arrive he's ohi trains. Wow. It's like really. Like may because you're telling me the story as it's going but this music really sounds like like a story like a scene like I just walked up on scene. It gives you the impression of a natural event of natural and. Yet look at singing. So many currently there is this future for military now ends of. Help our come to looking the shallows. So it's not only the fifty of course, there is really a deep romantic, somehow Melody Sti-. Burt. Always, with a purpose. It's it's so visual. It's sore. deputy yet. At the same time it's music. So it has a trip. True. It had the big mindy and I love this. I think it's A. Yeah. It's like it's almost like you're sort of walked into a painting or something. And over time you hear the background, it's burried by fascinates me. which kind of like kind of kind of makes you feel a little bit off base like there's There's no solid ground really in the music. Exactly. There is this idea of transparency because. It's never heavy. Never very cool in the sense of heaviness. It explore. The light therefore transparency and it's extremely censuring. The harmonies extreme central can hear that that's really that's really beautiful and I wanNA. Have some more examples but I think we need to take a break for some sponsor info. This episode of classical classroom is sponsored by maestro classics. They're the creators of stories in music, which is this recorded series that they made for kids and families. It's one more than fifty awards not to mention. General Adoration from the people who listen to it. Features the London Philharmonic Orchestra and it takes those musical stories at like brings them to life is one of those things where kids learn while they're having fun without actually knowing that they're learning. There is an activity book that goes along with it. It's a whole thing. Meister classics Justin announced a brand new recording in this series called Bach in the Oregon. It's all about Jesse. 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Of One and to get your size info and shipping info and all that good stuff be the first person to correctly identify all of the voices at our show intro an email it to classical poss- room show at gmail.com and you could win a classical classroom t shirt with my big old face on it. kind of small actually nothing. And now, back to my class on French Music French composers with conductors to fund enough. What else is a good example because you were saying that this is this is a very important period and French music. So who's another good example? When? Of course? Possibly, my favorite composer even if that's a bit stupid to something like that but I feel so close to A. Cloud, as she'll do beseech I mean. The free thinker is. The man who said, there is only one rule my pleasure. And And any e wrote music that was so special. He studied with a prelude of the afternoon for phone very early, actually eight, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, three, and he really in Canada if I may say amber these or the French values you know these. Rich Central Moonies, elegance, these transparencies, visual effects, and it's never sentimental. and. And what I would have to save it can describe many different moods often when we think about pursue them. Have this vision, of course, the watery. Brewery and all these kind of fame. Money. Painting and and. It can be a lot of other things for for instance, if you listen to set of the. You will see that he can right those visual impressions with. Extremely. And extremely attic related and. Somehow. Very Dry as well. It's not only what? That Reminds me a little bit of the barely does that we heard. Victory me in the like it's think way more structured than that. When you very right. It has these extremely articulated way of playing and even if we have the sensual harmonies that he has. That are almost charity Komo needs to be honest with you is that with the technical but with a lot of. Ninth and Eleventh Chord. So how many that later lot of jazzmen will will use to be smoothed at the same time? WBZ's US some rhythm Petar to articulate Armani in the way that is really festive and full of energy. I just wanted to illustrate the fact that imprint on music is not only just a blurry and watery it can be also extremely clear. So the fact is. I love third often people say had the vichy like if they were only those composers, there are many more Grad composer at that time of history. But there is one especially I would say we should speak about the trio not to do three or with have LDC and would sell. Huge. Van of Alberta who fail is a little bit neglected compared to have it onto. But. If you listen to an excerpt from a famous belly batteries. Arjan. Spell you will hear that same level of vary colorful. And very impressionistic. Train in the background sounds like a phone ringing. Actually. Of course for the same reason to just give a lot of different time and Colo's the composite was the French composers of the time you the lot of technicians you will hear a lot of, of course, three goals and theme boards and a lot of others, xylophones and. Peckish on in many ways just to give this sounds and AH, what I love is also which is very important and it's Important for people interested in in the way French composer orchestrate for very long the full nineteenth century basically the the winds and the breath would often be used as a way to sustain the harmony and the swings will speak the music on top of it. So if you he of course, a lot of from. Had No from. From. Tiles. You hear the German way to. Have a very solid we say in French full. So which means the background of the music would be. Saudi Tinto's by the Winds brass, and then the wood can speak them romantic melodies and often infringed is exactly the opposite, which means that often it will be the swing that will create the background of the music and. The fact that the string of course are more transparent, evanescent can play extremely soft. We'll allow this kind of very transparent and Pastelle background and on top then it's most would win themselves that would speak with all their differentes the very clear of fluid kick off and CLICO of Bethune and by the way something which I think is a very important subject as well about French tiles which is. The specificity of a French Orchestra especially if your. Colo the TAB of the instruments. So what I'm hearing is that woodwind players are big fans of French music because they actually get to play. When it's time to perform? Yes, it. Big. Rarely only have to sustain harmonies like an organ. It's quite interesting. If you hear German conductors of turns the try to use the yok extra as a as an organ trying to mix all the different time to create a magnificent. General term. So then they will try to have the fruit's being not true differen- when they do this when they sustained big harmonies as clarinet not too different. Bethune at Oh boy in order to to create once again, a very pure abstract harmony mixing instrument and. In. It's exactly the opposite. You try to really use the character the character of each would instrument and it's it's it's almost Lou. The only goal is to to try to make it very instinctive, and that's quite quite interesting that in in French orchestra, you would have sounded so different from one another you you have I the French assumes that were used. of course, in France which are specific to France, which are much more rudy and the nasal somehow lighter than German buffoons, and then you would have the boy being very acidic. You know very kind of like a duck sounds somehow and the flu being extremely air your and if and so those instruments would not make it would be like very specific different characters. Yeah. We should hear some of that I think that's a really fascinating that like other kinds of of music composed for orchestra. Are the. Basically, composed in the exact opposite way from French music, you're sort of you're sort of like home base are totally different instruments. And I think he's a couture which comes also a lot from the French revolution. Because what happened is the French Revolution is that the new people in power try to unify the people with a lot of festive music played open air, and so a lot of for harmony for fairs where created to be played in a Evans. Outside open air, and so you would have indeed this many many different wouldn't tremendous ready for location and US. Once again, actually wrote, which is incredible very early in mid nineteenth century he wrote a famous treachery. A. Book explaining how to mix all woodwind instruments and it's an art and you really feel when you read this book of burials that you really try to identify every. Would win breath instrument and explain what they can achieve the different. The different. Colo the different emotions as before the different impressions that you get if you mix them together and that is very specific to indeed the french-style. If if you may I think what would be interesting now maybe is to hear the different. This non-french Orchestra and French, Orchestra. I'd like to show you something if you may. Use. One of my favorite piece ever the famous. The lemaire from the he. And he was a story I'd love to different things at the same time. One is humid will try to compare with literal except the different. Colo's of the. Woodwinds us for instance on how the sound but also the rich Nicole aspect and I would expect you to something to. Look with all explain with the Gregor UNMOVIC the thoroughfares these very free way to articulate music in an original way without. Being victim of kind of pearls obliging to go to the spurs and to reunite at every purse that changed the way of framing of of. Of just interpreting France redick. So Allama at the beginning of Lemaire, you will hear a Freddie in the fruits, which is very lovely phrase very fresh like. Little. We Likud dilemma. You know these little white form at the wave of the. What are the fee for that? and. So to describe that somehow maybe the be used a flute and he does this rhythm. That are the. Data. And if you are French, you would just actually frayed as it comes with just the length of the not and nothing more no purse the just short or long shot long long, and then we freely and and and lightly transparently. But if you are not couture, you may actually be victim of your habit to use big pulse to reunite, and then it becomes a kind of vast doing Tedo Toddy da. Di We've a new. One, two three tier, and then to the risk of maybe getting the first note, cheer. Instead of having data. Tata Tea. So if you just wanted you to hear it so let's here for few seconds. The Kentucky our right of course. All good. It's a great orchestra not French but great. With. Marriage. Janssen's let's listen to petition. With kind of deep firth note deep personal data, very directional way to the next tata the so it sounds like a kind of. Kind of heavy us. and. Now try to compare that to knock at how he actually. I wanted to be a to be fair, which is not French but he's considered one of the most French has. Eighteen Swiss and because of its conductor with a friend of the NFL seventy and here the difference between what just these cheat. And what you will hear just now. Totally different. Let's. Just again that you hear the flute playing. Instead of teed. Which? By the way. Let's hear. Took it. You, hear how fleet how transparent you hear every part of the orchestra they we clearly and I love that and you can also hear these these quantities. Now, we finally a purely French orchestra, the okay. Nationale Du fast and. English who also was a close friend of the knew him very well. So you hear extremely distinctive Tom and exactly when we stop, you could hear a few notes of the horns playing with is very sweet little vibrato that was kind of the fashion at the time, and he's really totally french-style of playing if you elect to. The comparison, and now go to the very end of Lemaire is fantastic climatic moment with all my respect. Of course, I'm not here to criticize but just to understand the different concepts about French way of playing in. And and German whe fabulous twelve call that we all love the Berlin Philharmonic with Cayenne and you will hear how Cayenne try to mix all the different type of you're. In a very polished, very design way that is actually totally not French by mistake had how the famous hall of Brazilian. Totta. How this will be extremely sustainable to very noble, very kind of a working area on very. Extreme beauty beautiful by the way. But with a big accent, big German accent because it's totally not the French type let's let's see the end of Lemaire. So you heard Katy. Might heavy quite really. Vachon area I mean, yeah. It's very big sounding. It's. Basically, even the little decoration with being it's all mixed into one big swoop in one big sound mixed a now compare to the mad and my hero shall muench with. Off Really I promise you it is exactly the same music but here how it will be activated, how it would be free with me, Kelly and Super French. So this is a fringe take on French music. Exactly. It's Still. It's still a really big IM- bombastic. But I hear what you're saying how there's more sort of like. I feel like from note to note, it's just like on the surface hopping from note to note to note. Lamy, it's actually advocated and because there is much less sustainable to. Then you hear the background because. The notes are just naturally released. So quickly that you can hear all the layers of the music so you get instead of. Talk you hear Ta da Ta and then between those not yet. But. Not. All the little thing and then you hear the fecal. Just creaming with a very clear time and you hear the trumpet being very pointy and. It's a, it's just a different world today and. To really just make my point is there's also something about the tempo that French conductor engine and the French music a goes fast you know the normally French music is the French have quite shorter than the the week of the time we don't have long development wbz said when he was listening to Brown, it was wrong by the way, but still you could you could not stand. Bram symphonies like Oh my God will develop again and the scared by. This idea of long development and the idea of being too heavy to metaphysical and to be basically boring. Extremely for French people you have to consider is you have to saving quickly and and so the temple has had to be brisk and. Thought to just by. Listen to this very weird vision of Chili tacky. Grit conductor for for. Some repertoire but. In this La Mayor it's way too. and Sony Got Boo. Owns owns. I'm drowning. You see how? It sounds like cartoon music to for some reason. Who could just right away listen to the Midge division before you would see that different world? I mean we're just we just basically twice faster and then. With the speaking speaking I think it's Important for the frigates just it speaks a lot. Yeah, and seems important for French to be at that particular. Speaking Timbo, that's part of what makes it sound French, but you know like thinking about this. what what's going on in French music today where where's it headed? Okay I will say something a bit controversial. And maybe a little bit to a proud. Somehow. I. Have a feeling that. In many places of the world. Can. This idea of imprisoning them can of one and and you would hear actually a lot of composers from all over the world I think the the the way of few Costra, the visual, a description, and if very French and. Thinking in UK, for instance, you would have. Or George Benjamin we advance lost. Few go but. The were they either English co composer yet uses your cast with a lot of French styling the detailed attrition in the way of doing a lot of different lights and and and then you have I don't know for instance, in Finland Kia. is also using so many textures that sound extremely fringe is the way to the orchestra and so magnus, Lindberg with a big fan of Vail themm for Germany Dead Leonard is also. Writing, music, which is very Germany. Of course, we're inspired by brand for instance, but still with the way to orchestrate to use the orchestra influenced by inference by. By the French way. So have very pleased to say that the French style is actually continuing not on infringe. In France, I'm say we do have plenty of composers. Fabulous Mantiri? Keisha. Who Got Saddam Michael Belva can power very young wonderful new composer in France and for me my favorite one right now, I have to say is I Adore Music is about my age and. I recorded a lot of his music and he's continuing what all of composer from friends I, have done with. Sensual Harmonies Colo of. Way of using the orchestra, all these impressionistic way to use different timbre of. That is not describing Lemaire. Anymore is going further is describing the universe is describing. Planets. But he keeps indeed. french-style. that. This of Sounds Lake Lake movie music to me yet from like the nineteen fifties. Rebel without a cause or something like that. So DC's a piece called SUPERNOVA. Describing a Supernova and yes, you are very right that what happened is that in the twentieth century, the music also had great new repertoire sex to the movies and what the movie do is try to describe and help the mood yet was fair the different scenarios and characters and therefore ads the same kind of value used as the French creek that describing when I spoke about the south one of their use. It was in a way psychedelic movie before movie was invented, it was Hollywood before here what he and so you're very right that a lot of moving music could be qualified as impressionistic or slightly Frenchtown times and this. Job. has this this kind of visual quality and he wrote many many great pc's I've recorded already for CD of is really can vary if I miss that myself I'm so enthusiastic and passionate about this week I please encourage people to go listen to all the music of game console Theo An. What? This up on on the websites here he the future of French physique it's alive and it will be there for very long time as I hope fringe Kook as well all over the world. Thanks to our wine and cuisine. Has Been Incredible I'm like. I've learned so much today and it Kinda seems like what's remarkable to me about French music after having gotten this kind of intense. consolidated overview of it is that it sort of been weirdly the same since the beginning it's got this very consistent characteristic to it where it's it's emotive. It's describing the world around. It's sort of very engaged with the world of outside of the self. It's very when you listen to it. You're experiencing the feeling of something. As opposed to sort of thinking deeply about not that it's like superficial or anything like that. But but like it's it really works on an emotional level more than some other music you know. I couldn't be happier with what you just say because indeed I think sometimes, I have myself suffered from the idea that basically. Beethoven Brahms Bruckner Vagner would be. Deep Music because they speak about man speak about metaphysics the speak about. Humanistic. Values and that French music would be actually somehow you superficial and on the third faith and can decorative and actually I really believe that it is not the case in the sense that it depends how you see what is your attitude with the world and as we have always wore environmental concerns with the world, we understand that it is very That we are connected to the world, we are in and. Despite being often descriptive or visual, the French music I think it's it's a structure behind that that is in sync with the depth of the world and that what is searching it and that's what makes it really also, very, very deep. It's mindful. It's like it's like it's paying attention to what's going on around instead of being like sort of you know solid cystic and just sort of pulled into the the self it's it's like like I said, it serve engaged in observing what's happening. In this absolutely I mean sometimes. Short Haiku from Japan poetry little poem from. Fringe Kook. I believe could fay in a very concise way as much about men as much about metaphysics as you know some very heavy. Literature from from thumb German of I. Think it's both of them are important interesting but we should not indeed just put one above the other. I think. Both. Valid to try to make us understand the world better and be happier agree to fund enough. This has been amazing I feel like like I have been on. An journey of sound today I really really appreciate it. This has been a great listen I and thanks for taking the time to do it. It's my pleasure. Thank you for your patience and well I. Hope you would come visit us in. Saint Louis to hear a lot of. Music of. Every composer, but also some French. Music. Ones. By the Super. I Adore I'm so proud I love them. Well, it's a fun. Thanks again. Appreciate it. Thank. Thank you. Over. All right everyone that does it for this epic episode of classical classroom for more classroom head over to classical classroom show dot com, where you can find all of our episodes forever ways to connect with us ways to support the show financially and. Where to buy classical classroom merch don't forget to subscribe to rate and review the show wherever you listen. It helps a lot and we live hearing your comments hearing your comments and we love reading your comments. Thanks to the birthplace of classroom Houston public media. Thanks to the official virtual meeting background provider of classical classrooms. Streaker streaker provides a naked person to streak across your screen during important meetings at random intervals. Thanks to find enough for being on the show it was great to meet both you and your amazing hairless cats to fund. Thanks to me for saying words but most of all, thanks to you for listening. Of Why? Or why? Simone?

France lemaire US Beethoven Brahms Bruckner Vagn Colo Nobel Prize Colo French creek Saint Louis Tom Lou Saint Louis Symphony Orchestra Royal Tokyo Philarmonic Orches Philadelphia Orchestra Gem Music Europe Maly Stefan
Ep. 37  Emily Lau

Taking Her Lead

1:16:09 hr | 4 months ago

Ep. 37 Emily Lau

"When i experienced obstacle challenge on move. Pass it almost shanidar last ceiling in keep. It hurts just glass ceiling. We literally have be super heroes the walk through his life while he might have been the first i trade and i'm not last Our dumbass who is male. He said i worry that people will be traumatized and i think we should tell them that is coming so we talked about how to do it. So at the end we tell them that the following scene is gonna pick sexual and assault. You know it might make people uncomfortable so if you need to seek refuge. Please know that there's a broom empty in the back of the hall that you can go to and when the scene is over we'll have ushers come and collect you if you and surprisingly nobody left and everyone was crying i was on my honeymoon cruise and the cruise was called the costa concordia and it's sank. We almost died and so actually joined the whole holiday. Before the shipwreck. I was quite unhappy. I remember thinking like. I'm do all the work you know and nobody appreciates me. I wanted to change. And then i started examining myself and i realize so much of my work now by that point was driven my fear hello listeners. This is taking her lead. I am joshua mayor in this. Is janine konta lotto here. We strive to give women a platform to tell their stories and explain how they lead. These conversations give us unique insights into the impact women in leadership make and how they transform the way we work and live indeed. Today's interview is with no one other than emily lau. Emily is of course the composer performer of our theme music. As you will soon know were seriously lucky to have had her mind wrapped around her project. If only for a brief bed in order to produce such a beautiful apropos musical theme taking just a moment to consider her thought leadership her works of composing performing and coordinating music and also theatrical performances bringing people together providing healing environments for self discovery and self expression. It's enough to make me wish. I was doing more with my life. She works with poignant reflective unabashed and unsettling themes in her various modes in media. She and her broken consort tackle uncomfortable and desperately needed stories and express them beautiful and compelling ways. When i started the show almost a year ago. I reached out to one of my oldest friends. Dan myers who is a professional musician in early music in boston. I told him about the show and what we were attempting and that we were looking for a woman to compose and perform our theme music. He said without hesitation that we should talked with emily. Lau and the rest is history. She even surprised me by having dan play recorder on the track that she produced the show. How blessed we are to just have that creativity to be part of who. We are in our experience at taking her lead. Emily is so remarkable on her self awareness and unique perspective of what she brings to her leadership. I can't wait for our listeners. To hear what she has to share without further ado please enjoy our guest and composer. Emily lau on taking her leave. Emily welcomed taking her lead. Thank you for having me. We are so excited to have you emily. There's so much to talk about these days. Yes i've been looking forward to this for. Well when did we. When did i reach out to you. Dan reach out to you. And then i reached out to you and then you reached out to me with regard to do in the music. What was that. i can't say. I'm a rolling up. We're coming up on a year. Yeah was this. Music played from the very beginning we had two episodes in before. Okay so he's just silence before it was just. It was needed that music music is what ties people together really mean it's most aspect so yeah and a lot of time what you don't even realize that you you have a relationship with a situation or a piece of art or the podcast until you hear something again during something you can expect you know and i feel that way very much when i when i watch even a tv show you looking forward to hearing dingle at the beginning of salute with funniest during that up because we just had a little family thing couple nights ago where my husband and i were imitating nine year old commercial jingles like virginia slim meets the man and they all had songs and jingles with them. And it's it's amazing is from our childhood. But that's that's what we remember will always remember. So i'm gonna lead off with the first question. And i cannot wait to hear how you respond to this one is. What is your current position like. How do you describe what you do. Because it's just so fascinating. Yep always difficult right. I feel like. I have to answer that when i'm teaching a masterclass workshop. Currently i've been saying this for for all of my meetings recently say the my biggest affiliation most deep affiliation is with myself so i represented institution of emily. Lau who is. Somebody who has built communities brought people together made artwork encouraged different areas of development for different people in the arts in social advocacy in an education for the last fifteen years. I have made over forty original shows and programs in the last ten years over four hundred. Also i am. The artistic director found a artistic director of a nationally touring professional ensemble called the broken consort. And i am the artistic director and board member of a nonprofit in portland coach vic wealth society and i'm on faculty at reed college but i notice how often it is that we would. I say those big institutions names hoping that people will say okay. She's legitimate because a you know because she has all those things but the more i become my own person in a way the more realized that institutions are there to ideally. You know help you further your your beliefs and your your work in the world. They definitely do not define me or legitimize. You the joan mayes them. Thank you as totally. And and that makes me really weird because it's almost like willing to say so so many artists. The resumes are all about the names that they throw out because they hope that that would make them sound more legitimate. And i hope when people are close to me in with being it's my work and my relationship with them. that really speaks for itself. I love i love that yes group. Has i think that if we were all to be able to show up in the world like that of who we are as the legitimate aspect of our identity and what. We do not sure who we work for. You know it's incredible. Great thought much to ponder there in ten. I would say this too. Is i would say i am responsible for the emotional wellbeing of anywhere between fifty to eighty people at one time and my family also also very family oriented person and my friends and families are important so yeah. What is the intersection between musical and theatrical performance and expression and emotional wellbeing And i know that's even narrow swath of what you do. Just pick your plucking that out of the air. I was trained very classically. Like the most classically. I was in england. Now it's a choir girl in england and the cathedral and my mom was a professional musician and so very much. Classically went to undergrad grad school. All of that. And at the same time when i first came to the us i came to the us. When i was seventeen by myself for college i realized i did not understand what's going on with the us. It doesn't make any sense to me. Because the first time i came to the. Us was thirteen. And i went to not valley valley. This is amazing. Me and everyone has a pool and not kidding. After three weeks of that. I went home and i said mom. I think i would like to move to the us for my education. And she's like oh so later. When i came. I landed in miami. That's quite instills a lot of pools but shock. You know the poverty people on the streets in all of these different languages. I didn't expect it. That's all so. I start picking up sociology. I actually added a second major of sociology of attempting to understand. What's going on and that helped me. That gave me a window of understanding and working actually in the local community center. I live in a really impoverish neighborhood. So i stopped working with homeless people and an i over the years i work with homeless people women in inner city and then my first job out of undergrad was teaching at pregnant teen mothers school in noto studies. It was totally bloggers so for the longest time i felt like there. Is the music. Emily that sings music of dead people. Dead white. yeah totally and then. There's the emily that does community work advocacy working with people and those two people. Don't don't meet and i was always like racking my brains out. How can they possibly meet. And then later. I started getting some training in or involved in doubt pros. And wh what are these things right. so off. Schubert is a had ago. Gee is a method in acquiring music artistic like his music musical and artistic process in which they encourage people to use sort of folk materials like words and stories and colors that they would also improvise like musical improvise and also would dance and people read poetry interpretation of in a way in a way. It's too complicated. But uh for sure method to bring something to the world and that was developed by the person who broke comedic borana really famous composer and i still got some training in doubt. Pros eurythmics again. More theatrical improvised embodied way of making music. So i start using. I was young. You know this is what i was in my early twenties. And that's when i start to use it with my students and i realized what kind of extraordinary results i see growth in those people as individuals and also the artwork that we make when you give people a lot of compassion and a lot of expectations. Janine to see i love emily. Sorry emily go ahead. Yes and a lot of support and you know each person extremely well you know. It's not a one size all kind of thing and using these methods in with my own intuition i was able to really transform people's lives through these artwork and so at any given even work that we start doing i was doing these with elementary school. Can't crazy and we meet each other every day and we'll do this crazy show. That has a probiotics in theater and music and heartfelt soliloquy and and you know and they ride the shows with me so that was my first taste of maybe maybe use. It doesn't have to be just one way but remember. That was just a little seed. I was so young. I was twenty one twenty two and i also realize i really enjoy working with people at that level like just face a phase all the time and then so over the years you know i get more training more experiences in the world graduate school working in the field for while i kind of in a way lost my way a little bit. I moved to boston for graduate school. Another culture shock. No in a way. Boston is dangerous for me. Because it's perfect for me shortcoming interested interesting like ewing. Well in an institution winning words and following the script. I can do that any day like you know so. It was easy. He was greatly. I basically got boston immediately was successful. I was working everywhere. Getting the best jobs you know and dealing with people and for a little while. I almost feel like oh. This is kind of both really exciting. Not quite me. I was traveling a lot. Like i said kind of successful too quick but in the middle of graduate school i started on. I thought you know what. I truly what romney to music at the end of the day is hanging out with my friends. That's it. I don't aspire to be a winner a solo as to be famous. None of these is interesting to me. I really love hang out with my friends and making really good music. So that makes it tricky. Because i've noticed there are two tracks for a lot of people you either excellence. And then you become a sullen sad stressed out person totally or you go for like fun than you don't have standards. It happens a lot of seen that. So i was aware of that and anytime i say. I'm aware of something know that it's in a way. Almost in retrospect like something's weird. And i need to fix it. And if i would say that it's one thing i constantly do i wouldn't just sit somewhere and accept all of the assumptions that was thrown at me. I would ask myself being authentic and my being true does this position have doesn't honor who i am and what i wanna do in the world but who knows and at that. I thought oh. Let me start an ensemble with my buddies and grad school. And we're really good friends and we can like maybe perform and you fun projects and is a really good example of. I actually didn't really ask for permission. I know you're not going to start. Playing boom boom started saying it was both really great and really chaotic. Don't mean so. I have some really good people ask some very good people not that they absolutely good or bad. It's just like there's no good leadership. I wasn't good leading yet. Know idea but i didn't know how to guide other people to that idea and these were my peers. That also makes it a little bit trickier when you don't really have experience or method other than just like some intuition so because we're good musicians we achieve some level of success. We're doing we're doing okay but the culture within the group was i would say great because back then i remember thinking. I don't want outgrew to be like where there's director and then it's like the director will tell you what to do. I really want to be collaborative. Really collaborative on sombor but when you want something like that. You actually need to put the group together like that. That means all the people in the group that does collaborative work has to be collaborators. But i didn't feel that at that at that. Point was the case is more like usually people who don't want to have a director but also have no experience being collaborator that comment. They don't want to be bossed around but they also don't want to like take the responsibility of what a leader needs to do. So i would say that. I swim at that marquise waters for like maybe two three years and then something very interesting happened. I was on my honeymoon cruise. I don't know the story about me. Anybody knows it's going to blow your mind okay. I was on my honeymoon. Cruise and a cruise was called a costa concordia. And it's sang. That's right in the mediterranean. Oh so mike. Long story short. We almost died and so actually doing the whole holiday before the shipwreck. I was quite unhappy. I remember thinking like. I'm all the work and nobody appreciates me and i think that's the most common complained of any leader is. I'm doing me doesn't that i was young. I was very young. I was twenty five at that point. And i wanted to change and then i started examined myself and i realize so much of my work now. By that point was driven my fear the fear of failure the fear of disappointment you know the fear of not being able to keep up with the work and generally i would say that that is a lot of the mentality amongst musicians and artists in boston while the scene is really exciting. It's also so competitive. That means you might be great news this year in two years someone younger and much more capable than you in reality will come along and replace you and if you haven't worked on yourself in a real way to understand that that is how it works. It's very stressful. So every year around may or may april is when all of the contracts for the next season will be completely signed. And that's when i get lots of phone calls people crying and pleading saying that. Oh i don't have enough work next year. I don't know what to do with myself and this person got the work that was sort of the environment. I was living in stressful. Yeah yeah it's hustling right hustling is. I would say ninety percent of artists life or one hundred percent. Yeah yeah yeah. So when i was evacuating and and i remember i was thinking to myself. If i don't die. I would reconsider all of this when i get out of here. I want all of my work to be motivated by love and not fear. I know it sounds really cheesy. But it's true. Actually i thought about all of those things and so when when the whole long saga drama was over. When i was done with my pd. Actually when i came home one of the very first phone call we made was to massachusetts general hospital and we called them and said like we need a pediatric specialists. Like really need a refer. All we need to see someone right now like we were basically crazy can't sleep. You know like really stress out shaking nightmares you know. Oh my gosh. I can't even imagine that. Yeah seeing other people die in front of you and seeing like going going through a long exposure of that so the therapists work with me for almost a year. It was quite long. And i went through many stages of this sages including. I don't wanna do music anymore. I don't like people anymore. Which is totally insane. And you know it happened. And she guide me through things and at some point she said you're very lucky. You are an artist an artist you can make meaning out of this experience and she said to me that if you're looking for justice i think you just be on a long path of unhappiness. You're not gonna find it and if you are looking for meaning i think you have all the cool you need to make it so i went home and i was thinking about it and i'm like okay. Okay well let me see what kind of music. I can find to express how i feel a lot of feelings at that time. I have a lot of feelings about captain who abandoned ship of feelings about like my own life and my friendship in my family and my my relationship to religion like so many things you know when you almost died each things comes right to the service and i couldn't. I couldn't find music by mozart. Beethoven brahms anyone. You know all of these dead people none. None of it works for me. And that's when. I thought maybe i need to write music and so it's interesting most composers start much younger by that point. I was in like middle to late twenties unusual. And it's not that. I didn't have impulse or experience in the past writing and it wasn't that they weren't good but i had a very estonian attitude. Which is if. I don't have a doctoral degree from princeton than i can't write it people going to be scrutinizing nizing you but beauty of the shipwreck is i. Don't give a crap come out of it and you know what i'm just gonna do my own. I think there's a quote in their the beauty of this shipwreck. The iraq a lot of terrible experiences will become that later. If you can make meaning out of it you can't make meaning out of it. Then it will define you in a very different way. It will find meaning for you and so for a while my project was. We were interviewed. A lot by television documentaries will on every show because it was rare that they can find people who can talk and it became that we were talking to people about how most people have gone through difficult trauma in their lives and how it is up to us. Ideally make meaning out of them. How do you let it change your life in a way you know even when the track is a tragedy so because of all of the interviews i had a boomer press at that point so there were record companies whose i will would produce your disk because it's going to sell and it was the very first time in my life back then to say you know what no because my tendency is to like these things. My tendency is to want institutional support. You mean why. Wouldn't i want to sign with a record company. Why wouldn't i the validation right you exactly. Why wouldn't i but then you get trapped by them. Now you making music they want. You're signing a contract that they need and maybe you won't be authentic to yourself and ashby thing which is myself and so i gave myself. I think at that point like a few months maybe six months. It was very quick six months three months. Something like that. I say i'm gonna. I'm gonna make an album from scratch of only my music and then i call some friends to help and i produced it composed. It did all of the things. Of course i went to a studio. You know but i remember thinking like i have literally no experience doing any of this. I've only. I've recorded many albums in my life but only always a line cook. I've never been a chef truly a chef so that gave me a taste of like i can do it and the album. Turnout actually really quite lovely. See for what it is and then it made me think about how most artist yet trapped in a cycle of professionalism where they think that they have to wait until things a perfect to do and it's perfect in their head. But i have learned for me the best way to do anything is to throw yourself in it because no matter how well you plan you will make all the mistakes so you might as well start doing it already and getting out of the way. I say the same thing to my students. I think that that takes a level of self compassion to be able to see yourself as flawed and sometimes. We don't allow that to yourselves. That way. so that level of self compassion is where excellence emerges right. I hope so. So that's something. I teach in my method of you know doing artistic collaboration like now after so many years. So anyway after that process i start to really rethink about the way i my mom bowl the way that i you work what i wanna do and lo and behold slowly my social advocacy work and my music to come really close to each other and now they're the same thing i would very much say that now my artistic work is an embodiment of my belief and work. That way that i changed. People's live is very much the way i want so i've worked with homeless people. Prison definitely worked in prison for a while. And the way that i treat my community and the way i encourage expressions and cooperation and for people definitely different colors and also different beliefs and that is quite rare in the music world to most people quite liberal in the music world so i would probably say i would say that most of my own tumble also have people with very contrasting views and somehow we can be all in the same room doing excellent work being truly empathetic to one another. And for all of that. You know what's interesting is that i remember thinking maybe five six years ago. I said you know. Have a problem with all of this this whole scene. Which is we make music and theater and all of these to talk about utopia. How can we be more compassionate and kind each other and then the process of making those art is terrible. Most the time full of competition jealousy hatred self-doubt. All so many of my colleagues just really hate themselves and then you have a director whose abusive and everybody deals with it. And i just remember thinking that can't possibly be how i'm going to live out my artistic life so that is gonna go into other topics but i think that we want something to be different. We shouldn't just e critical about it. We should offer alternatives. That's how i am a leader aboard member. Whenever i'm am counsel to other people i always say like less spend less. Maybe less time being really really upset about what really is not something you can do and offer alternatives because a lot of time when things becomes really thick and complicated. It's not that people were militias about it in designing it. It says it became that way so being really angry to find the culprit of who did it. A lot of time is not as effective as saying you know if you think you can make a different way you you can lead a different way. Show them and then you need to have a lot of -bility to do it so the utopia thing is yeah like i was hoping that maybe there is an alternative way to make art where it doesn't have to be like that and i had feeling then it would be a lifelong pursuit for me to design and thing of what those process looks like. And so that's when. I really started a lot of research so i on one hand running all of these different retreats in projects trying to do different things and then also i want to germany at one point to study physical theatre and device theater because i wanna see how they also a new discipline like maybe thirty years old. What kind of vocabularies they are using to do artistic collaboration. You know in so many ways. Classical music is quite behind. Because it's very much in a way like ballet. It's hard enough to become good now. You also want me to create if you're not. I mean so it's hard and in order to be good quote. Good you have to go through such rigorous soul-crushing training that a lotta time. It crushes the person out of it on the other hand. They're developing this. This process an idea for the last ten years of learning the lessons things. I shouldn't shouldn't do yes my long answer. Sorry for your short question. And a lotta time. I liked to have theatrical elements and literary elements and storytelling elements into all my show. Because i find our time to be so unique that we can combine all these materials and our job as artist is to bring people in so like now talk for one second as a classical artists is that i do find the art generally to be quite alienating and the way i would like to think of not alienating people is not down the music or to make it accessible by mccain easier is you do you have as much fun as you can. But make it so that way you present it to people it's palatable to people of different experience level so i chose to be really really exciting for someone who's a connoisseur. It would come in and go. Every element is so interesting but also someone who has never ever been to a show classical show. They might even think it's boring and they'll come in and go thank you like. Wow i learned something really cool and it's so emotional in great says very inclusive like you said all. That's what i mean by inclusivity. Well that's That's that's equity right. I mean that's reaching out knowing who the person is knowing that type of person and meeting them where they are and making it inclusive based on who they are not a cookie cutter like you said so. It's an interesting one. So when i moved to portland from boston is part of the transformation. I thought boston as bittu too stressful for me. Let me move somewhere less stressful. I love portland. I love orleans. I'm not loving important to go ahead. Now portland is very strange but also really great. People have really great heart. And they're really they have really soft great heart and it doesn't have as much of a rigorous artistic culture in that way it is really artistic. Everybody is artistic like the quality. It is hard to find. So i was thinking. How can i have community here because everywhere you go if you remember this. I'm an immigrant. Who came here by myself actually. Most of the time i'm thinking about. How do i have a group of people. So when i first moved here i started hosting these salons which musicians can come and poets can come and we would perform and hang out with each other and slowly people say. I think you should teach classes. And i really don't want to. I don't wanna deal with the administrative side of the work. And then someone's out do it so i let them do it. And over time it became society it became. I will see one five. A one c three nonprofit so within the organization we have world-class touring musician. Instead i would sometimes and then we also have beginners who has never ever made music or performed. That's beautiful that is so beautiful and you wouldn't know who's who because i never called him out on purpose. Which is unusual. I would say so they would be on the stage performing together helping each other and my ideal is along the spectrum. I say there's always something you can learn. There's always something you can give in this situation. If you're a professional i would say. Most professionals don't hang with amateurs because they're amateurs but do you know who pays for livelihood are professionals the amateurs and you giving them access you giving them time to spend with you to understand why you're artist so special and amateurs really need to mentorship inspiration and always say usually given opportunities to make art. They usually get are given opportunities to wrote learn and regurgitate. An artistic process is not a product is a process. You know it transformed you. So i was thinking i would really like to have group. I can erect and run and where we're all these values are play out so i'm very happy to say right now. We've been a former nonprofit for three years and that we have on average don four large scale performances year. That is just sort of incidental. Rupe are like people are such good friends with one another there so high in every rehearsal we have we're hugging and laughing and smiling and people are saying that this is such a such an important part of their life. They say it's like church but is not church you know. And i'm sure shot and the membership itself and other thing. That's really cool. As i have people who are seventy five years old and i have people who are eighteen years old and they worked together and their female their male. They're transgender people. And they are all kinds of people with different pression gender abilities occupation and interest and we never call attention to them. And that's another one that i think about. I know right now in a very interesting part of history. Right we we. We want to include more people of color we want to have. People who are transgendered feeling really welcomed all of these things and sometimes i feel like as a person participating and also organizing it fused. Very performative if you haven't been already doing it as part of your work in a way you know. It's funny because i was writing this grant with the chairman of the board. And she said we need like some graphic numbers and i don't know why it got remand and my we have to do that. What's so beautiful as we said that we say okay. Our organization is sixty percent. Women aboard is eighty percent women and then we have letting thirty five forty percent people of color in on every level of leadership and also membership and this and that and i felt that it's so interesting because it was not by design like we never said it that goes that way when you have the right north star. Yeah i hope. I hope but it's it's hard to do for some people. It's hard to do because remember that we always educated a certain way so in order to not be the exactly the way we're educated. We need to change drastically a lotta time. It makes us uncomfortable even a simple thing like concert dress. Do you notice it when you go see performances. Orchestras always wearing tuxedos and suits and Does ab- suits. Do you know that. The origins of all of that was servant outfits in the closet of the palace because musicians were so poor. They can't wear the almost never come to the performance. Place go into the changing room. Come out with their uniform so they don't look so bad. These kinds of stuff followed us to today where we have to tell everyone in non sombo you have to look identical and it is not unusual that in the school ensemble acquire. They would say everyone's hair has to be of natural color. You can only have this kind of makeup. Girls have to wear dresses boys to wear pants. And now you got into really rigid place that you don't even like but but you have no other alternative examples so a lot of time when we perform i say to everyone. I want you to local rate. So yeah that would be sort of the dress code. I it is for more issue is more formal so like dress designs and the result of that is oh we have everyone have so much fun and i as part of their creativity and their creative quant Hat right. yes and they feel seen right. For example someone might be a really shy non binary person who decided that that day he is or they are going to wear a dress for the first time at safe. You'll save enough to do it in your presence. They feel like you are not going to say something neither positive nor negative. So that's another one is a lot of time. I noticed in groups that i go if you are different you get praised for it. Yeah yeah and it's in your creating such an organic space as opposed to forced space or an orchestrated space. I try to not do that. I try to not say it's good that you're wearing address right. It's just yeah. It's you're good so like that. The the topics of the Art projects that we do as part of the social advocacy. But not in a really heavy handed way you know. We do something sometimes political. We do a lot of music by people of color. We do a lot of music by female composers music from different cultures. Can we talk briefly on that on that topic not to be heavy ended but because this is taking her lead. I would like to hear a little bit more about sirens interrupted. Move the product. Yeah okay siren. Interrupted was a project. I think with the broken concert presented by big multiple multiplicity in portland. Was it three years ago. Three years ago is a long time ago as long. It was a semi theatrical immersive concert that highlights the work of this obedient women. Three groups women history very typical show. That would do so. The first group of women were a group of women in the thirteenth century and berea they were nuns and it is one of the only surviving collection of music that was definitively performed and written by women one of the earliest collections yet and their virtuosic and absolutely wonderful and that particular monasteries interesting. Because it's the royal monastery. So i want you to notice. Think about this in the thirteenth century. If you are a women the it's most likely that you either have a life really busy with housework and labor and having children or you die in childbirth. so if you are more intellectual more studios kind of person. There's no space for that. So this particular monastery with housing a lot of princesses and countess and all of these high level women who basically went to the father or mother and say i want out. How can it be out. And the only way out is signal into the monastery so once they go in there they can study medicine. They consider nick. So it makes perfect sense at these are the most learned educated musicians so we did a collection of their music as interpreted by all musicians and then another group of musician was in the cubs sort of seventeen in eighteenth century in italy and at that time were almost no professional female musicians and they were and they came out and they made money not for the husbands before themselves and they have garnered individual fame for the virtuosity and emotional expressive. Nece and it was very very cool as a secret society almost of professional musicians so we also featured them and the third group of women were contemporary so we have women singing against the war where women talking about their experience with abortion and then we also have some interesting. Some of the is interesting because his musical interesting and some of this is interesting because it's semantically interesting and then we also did a world premiere of one of our members work which is her story of being raped twice sexually assaulted twice in new york city. And she wrote a libretto and the ensemble it a theatrical musical devising process that tells her story and what was so interesting about that is i had also experienced sexual assault and so the other performers in the group and actually help us process a lot of it and when we were when we were rehearsing actually a different people so everything that we do we consult each other quite a lot with truly a collaborative. We talk about one of the things we need to think about. And so our dumbass who is male. He's at. I worry that people will be traumatized and i think we should tell them that. It's coming and we should warn them so we talked about how to do it. So at the end we tell them that the following scene is going to pick sexual violence and assault. It might make people uncomfortable so if you need to seek refuge. Please note that there's a room empty in the back of the hall that you can go to and when the scene is over we'll have ushers come and collect you if you lie and surprisingly nobody left and everyone was crying. Every one was praying in the hall and then emotions reverberates into question answer section. You know people really ask a lot of really meaningful including one. I think it would be relevant to you. Which is the narrator in the show. because we don't want to break the four walls and the narrator is one of the collaborators of the group who is a white male middle age and so someone was really mad is like how come you do a show about feminist values and then you have this guy who is telling the story and i said thank you for saying that like i said if you think. Feminism is about women's and we have pro- problem. this is definitely an ally. As a matter of fact. I'm using him because he's free he said you're saying is so meaningful i want in and i said i have nothing for you and he said i will. I will be the narrator. Do you understand what i'm saying. How can i turn down. The incredible work of someone who is an ally. Maybe feel really good do you. Don't mind me while. That's the kind of this podcast. And then people are still writing us about this show and still talking about it and saying how they felt like everyone should hear this and the interesting thing is this important part is no one is willing to produce a show out east. Nobody uses an opera full length. Opera is quite long it that means a lot of money. No no no no three or four our like our and half but so it comes to at most likely to bring moss algae reproduces fooling debut. The interesting thing is that is i personally do not put who much stock in institutions at is there to protect our own existence as primary goal and i say that most very powerful institutions he comes over time and the reason why no one reproduced that. They're afraid that they may be. They will make someone upset or maybe. The creators not famous enough and many reasons but is rarely the value and the emotional value of a community and support. So we're going to try to do it is going to be crazy. Is going to be really hard. We're going to try and do it in portland. And the ideal is we will actually also be recruiting groups of women who had experience in sexual violence to s in the ensemble. As well in the largest scale working with therapists also working through the lao method of making meaning out of this and having a piece of artwork that really represents that struggle and that kind of stuff so that. That's one of the questions that i have for you that we haven't touched on yet is is there someone in your world who has mentored you supported. You stands out in your mind as someone who you couldn't have imagined being where you are without having been molded and shaped by that person is there. Is there somebody like that for you. Damn many people. I can tell you some weird. You are as a person more unlikely that you will have one mentor because you become different people over the years at my very first person i will never forget. Was my second grade teacher. Her name is isabela and she hit me out of my class to do. These speech and a poetry competitions so i would travel the region and do competitions in front of thousands of people and go on tv and one these crazy competitions when i was in second grade but what is interesting about her is she always knew that. I'm kind of different from other people. In the way that i'm both really capable and i'm not okay with just accepting things as as they come so i was like people are afraid of me for that and she wasn't you understand and she only just loved. I would say she loved me. And that's all she was doing and she has polio. She eventually died very early and when she became sick and can no longer mentor me. No one in school were willing to mentor me. Because they thought that if this teacher mentored me and i won all the awards. That means like i have an award-winning kind of a person. So if other teachers mentor me they also have to make me win. It's so stupid. I was just a child but what's really helpful. In all of these. I was able to see how people work really young like how people think. And what what. What kind of thing. informed decisions then. The next person that's super important was my mother. My mother is completely self made in a real way like dirt. Poor factory kind of never graduated from college in any way but she found her own music school. F- like pop music school music studio and ran it for forty years and supported the family and she is also someone basically she. She doesn't seek permission. Because honestly there's no permission to be gained. No one can if you permission to do anything so one day she said. You know i'm gonna start saying as she women started saying and one day when i was in third grade she said you know the families to bore where we didn't have money so she's i would like to start selling piano too but like most people will probably have the plan for years and years and think about how to do it. She didn't she just went to like hand different piano store and demanded talk to the manager and ask them how they did it and then she became the largest seller reseller of hawaii when hong kong for like years and years and suddenly like. Oh we're not poor anymore. But like she never waited for someone to give her any permission so growing up in that kind of mom and pop environment when we want to book shelves on the wall. We installed it and it's funny because as a kid. I was really critical of everything. Of course you know. This is so dingy. The lighting is so bad. And how come when. I go to a nice music store. It doesn't look like this. You know and inside. I thought about it inside but now as i'm getting older i see the beauty of rowing up in a family where people if things themselves truly things in a very analog day-to-day building relationship kind of away. My mother most of the time top forty five students a week forty five students and so she can keep track of all these people and their emotional health. So i'm used to having lots of people around and my parents also played in orchestras and stuff. So there will always uncles and aunties and you know and so all of these people were my mentors as well. They taught me how to e- with people and respect them and left medicare for them and be selfless. Be generous and i would say that different teachers that i've had throughout the years either taught me through or taught me through negative example and i'm really grateful for all of them and my my favorite teacher was definitely my graduate teacher. Roger schoolteacher laurie monaghan. And i don't know it's it's hard to even describe. I feel like she's like my mom in so many ways and she caught me at a time. I think she could tell them weird. You know i got into grad school a little bit older and i can tell that she was weird because when i first got a really fancy gig came to her and say i'm gonna take a week off from school on a tour is famous group. She looked at me and she go. Now you're going to be really bored of that. And i argue with her. I said what are you gonna have so much fun. This group is famous and she said yeah. You don't strike me as the kind of person who enjoyed having a little stick waived in your in your face and back then but she let you discover that she let me discover that yes so. There's a lot of personal agency in that. Every one of your stories around mentors. If somebody who's cultivating your personal agency you're yourself to be able to arrive. And use your weirdness and that is better words to your to your advantage. How i teach and to come to another thing is i. Think the feminine. One of the feminine ways to lead is time. I am much less about immediate results. I have time invest in people people i work with. Sometimes i've worked with for ten years or more already. I'm quite young. And i'm not thinking about what can be changed today is how can i create an environment in which this person can continuously find out more about themselves and the art they do and just being person in the world so they can evolve and on and they would know that they can always come back to me and we can always talk about it and laugh about it and oh and another one more two more mentors. I would like to talk about in case they listening as when i was nineteen. I had a church job very common for classical musicians to you know. Sing in church in miami and after the first rehearsal i was invited to beer and i met this group of mostly gay middle aged men and hanging out with them and within. There's a couple called bill and ross and as a person who had no family no habits in the us that means i have had a thanksgivings. I don't know what is like to be an adult in the us. They taught me all of that. Through example and their house is like a community center is always people there. And everyone's invited and i would very much say that that's my life now. My house is always full of people and everyone can ask for support and is always there and the strength of their relationship is what showers his blessings into the community. So i always remind myself that. I need to be someone. Who's really centered. I need to be someone who has cultivate a sense of equanimity familiar with this concept of not being swayed by either successful failure keeping a sense of mindfulness and sometimes i feel criticized for that quality of mine. People would say like you seem not too excited sad about anything. They thought i'm really disconnected. I'm not disconnected. I'm very passionate. But i think that having a stable mental situation would allow me to do better work in the world. And so that's something. I devote a lot of time a lot of thoughts into and that come from knowing yourself. Some people need alone time. Some people need group time. And you have to ask you what it is that you need and sometimes for me what i need after giving so if i say worked in eight hour day working with people what i need is to watch six hours of tv and then i do it and so letting go of the guilt of thinking that you should somehow be some sort of robot or there's a correct way to be a person it's really tricky because people tell you that they're good hobby is bad hobbies and you always have to compare yourself to those things so yeah i definitely feel that who i am now is quite far from how i feel like i was brought up because i definitely worth brought up in a very competitive environment in a very capitalistic society. I'm moving into a much. More community minded his soft and happy place. Even salita. And i want to show that you can do that. One of the themes in your story is that you're constantly evolving. And so when you said my students can come back to me. They're coming back to someone who's evolved into other things to learn right. Gives them the freedom. Yeah they have a role model for that s different synergy. Every time you meet. I mean i love my students most of them most. I was like some of them have of them. I in touch with me after they graduate and they become some of my favorite people. Because i saw how they evolve through school and then how they are like taking their life in their hands and doing things now and and seeing how confused they are you know and i encourage them and i very much say my goal is to turn every teacher into my friends and every student into my friends. So we'll all friends it'd be great. Love it yeah. And the thing that i feel i am voting fewer or less and less time for unlike the pass is number one the approval of the larger scene. It's not like i don't have it. I totally have it too. But i don't really think about it much anymore. It's not something i care about. And also more distant actions or more practical connections. People are only there because you can do something for them a lot of time. I'll let those go and allow myself to have more real connections that last long deeper generosity abundance the hear that a lot in what. You're talking about it. I love your discussion of being centered and finding ways to recharge yourself because you are in such a giving role often in creating a giving space in a generous space around you the other thing emily. That's fascinating to me. That i don't know that we as women have really cultivated in our lives is the ability to receive. And so when you talk about your mentors you've allowed yourself to be molded and shaped and be giving gifts and to be seen. And i think that takes a fair amount of ulmer ability to allow yourself to be seen in all your quote. Weirdness is the word you picked but then the other thing is is to receive you know we kinda get into the caregiver role or give give give sacrifice may be a little resentment on the underbelly of that and then at some point we had a breaking point where when we allow people to imprint on us to receive their gifts. It's easier for us to give right. We were more authentically generous with who we are. And i really hear your incredible balance of giving and receiving is hard. Do on really hard. Don't lie don't enjoy. Akkad requires intention. Doesn't it really is so a lot of things that i feel. I can tell you today with much more clarity. I was not there at all in any form. Ten years ago is something that i have to really work on receiving is definitely one of them and i think receiving has a lot to do with trust. Because i feel confident any that you can trust me i can. You can trust me. I will be to you. But i don't always feel that i can trust you because i don't wanna get disappointed but now with more self work is that it's okay to be disappointed to if i can up my own tolerance for discomfort and disappointment than i would have more access to more people soul like now almost building. I'm like really do project. Twenty percent of the situation will be really disappointing and then when it happens. I'm like it was okay. Yeah i was thinking about this. When i was teaching our student who was from china. I'm talking about things and we're discussing. How people are reacting to the coronavirus and this is new to me by the way. I don't know how many of your of your listeners are immigrants. But i definitely feel that the first ten years of me in this country was spent a lot on blending in like truly learning the rules. I like that like learning how it. How does it work here. What do people care about. Think and how. Can i blend in while being mostly authentic and today which is i feel like i am basically authentic all the time now but for example even a simple thing. If i'm on tour. And i checked into a host family's house and they would ask me. What can i make for you for ten years. I would say anything you like. Because i would eat anything someone. Don't make me feel terrible. When i perform but i would do it because i don't you know you don't wanna be non ungracious. Yes and now. I feel very confident. Say that's so nice of you. I would like rice to eat some rice and some vegetables. And i have to let go of the fact that maybe they would judge me for being so chinese and that's another way to think i talk a lot to other immigrants or people from different backgrounds as i say. Do your best to find what is so great about your particular ethnicity like for example. What i really love being chinese is. We don't complain. A lot is mostly non-complying people is mostly a like work. Your ass off and be grateful kind of situation and that's in your blood. It's very interesting. That i truly think it's it's true and maybe it's because of people that has been around for so long has seen a lot and the feeling when i was a kid. I would complain to my father. You know about this and that and he would say oh you know. It's just a small episode. I would even tell him. I am really impressed. I've been crying for three months and he said you'll get over it and then i did. It's very interesting. It's the opposite in a way of how we like to see things now. we'll call it. Like oxen positively. You should always you know you should be aware of what's going on. That's wrong. I am but at the same time there is something also i think is virtuous about being able to stay in certain level of functionality and calmness even when lives unexpected things get thrown at you because i really do expect them. I expect life to be difficult and tricky and full of challenges. So in that way i like that and i like that. For example i am not the mainstream han chinese ethnically. I have some Which is a minority in me and the hukou girls are interesting because they are not slender and pale. Like a lot of girls. Hukou girls are wide round and dark usually and growing up. That was like a bad thing. You know people like yourself fat you so thick in your so this and that and the other day when i was just actually last week i was in the hospital for my partner and i was carrying all kinds of bags and suddenly had the idea. I just thought if. I were frail and skinny and tiny and week i wouldn't be this. I feel like an ox and the mule anna donkey and a strong bear. Like all of these together because of what. My ancestors made me in a way. Like i have the ability to to to hold space for difficult things physically and mentally and i felt really proud actually on my hand. Go through hard things and like not. Have it completely crush me. So i think like these are some of the things are now like to share. I don't want you to stop talking. I'm absolutely hang. I'm just loving listening to you. Talk about your perspectives. Your experiences emily. This week i think janine has a lot going on. I have a lot going on. You have a lot going on but if a carve out the rest of the day and continue having this conversation wouldn't hesitate to do it. Thank you for chatting with us. Thanks for taking this time. I think we have to ask our last question. I know our listeners. Hang on this last question. Are you ready emily. Maw was that what are you most hopeful about the future women in leadership in positions of influence. I think it will get better and better. I know also there'll be more women and more interesting beautiful things in the world and we just have to believe in doing it. I believe that you sharing your story. Today is really part of that. Right is really showing the way and giving people a path. Not everyone knows how to get the Cutters or the clippers out and start showing their own path so this is just a fascinating dialogue for them to listen to so thank you so much. I s a little call for interest. I'm always very interested in meeting people who are interested in working in this kind of method or ideas of wanna share or other artists of the writers. You know all kinds of people please do reach out and you know you can find my products online as well all their you can find it through. My name is not think. janine janine. Your suggestion to consider connecting. Emily and alicia is a very good one and emily. Alicia runs the united for global mental health organization. And you can google. You can google just that and she'll come up just like that and i think will mentioned use to her. Just you know we do that often. The thing that's really interesting that you might be interested in me is on saturday night. I just ask tuned into an event bright and it sort of like ted talks or moths. But it's about stories about mental health and they had six speakers and what a fascinating way of bringing mental health to the goal is to normalize it for people to just tell their stories about their journey through mental health diagnoses in and parenting or having your post traumatic stress response to something. That's life changing right. And i just love when all those things collide. Because i could see that your creativity could be just as impactful through your way that you tell your narrative or the people that you work with teller narrative much the same way they use storytelling right. Absolutely a lot of my work is informed by expressive arts. Therapy and and different therapy is just at. My motto is not so disease focused like everyone is weird and and sad and have problems in some way are powerful in right and that's how this organization was to and the name of the people that put it on in the pacific. Northwest are the national alliance on mental illness. And they're the ones that sponsor this all around a grassroots organization and it's not necessarily for people who have aig knows this more of spirits peop- having an awareness of mental health and like one of them was a mother and so i relate to that you know having my nine year old so it's sort of like wow you know. These things are really profound ways of normalizing the mental health of every person with or without a diagnosis right. So it's really fascinating. And i'm also struck in your story by how there were pivotal moments for you like you said moving to miami. You are open to well. I have an interest in this like. Hey this cultural stuff is really interesting to me. Hey sociology is really interesting to me and being able to bring it all together is just really powerful. I think that your story is Really wonderful so thank you for sharing it with me. I feel like. I've been giving a gift so i'm glad feel a double gift. We get it we get to have. People were almost forty countries. People in forty countries are listening to the mazing music. You made for us and now they're going to hear your. You know your thoughts and your experiences. This is this two times. This is awesome. Yeah and we hope you'll share this with your network love for your stam heard me ninety four. Yeah and we would love it if your mentors heard you too. Because i think that there's something you know about being mentioned in remembered and that is really important so we are thinking about doing an episode of people coming back with her mentor and talking about that journey. And so i'm hoping that's going to be. One of our unique approaches is somebody. Who's been in your past that you might wanna show your podcast with and see if they tap out whether they'd ever do an episode with you in them together and we were going to have like maybe two or three people come back with our mentors and talk about how we lift each other up right and so male or female mentor were not you know a mentor. Who supports building your influence. So if you have one of those in your history because you mentioned a couple of your mentors if they're still alive and well and it might force you to kind of get in touch with that. Murray i. I may be doing a show with my teacher in graduate school next year in time. She recently retired and moved to the pacific northwest. I've been like really excited about this. There's hope there's hope for the our friends on east side come home. This is very interesting. And some of the ideas i have like you can even do episodes where you invite some of your more popular like you'd like some of these guests and have them on the same room and chitchat and and i think like there are many things i always want to be connected to more people as well because is always trapped in the artists world. And that's what it really limits your your influence especially if you work is not purely just aesthetic now and it's actually so it's really unto me. Well that's why we were thinking about alicia for you because you know she is an a whole different kind of round the you are. But she's on the global stage twos so. I think that that's really powerful. Emily i mean when i said that you were singing. My song. i'm my mind is just worrying right now with the potential collaboration. A you have a lot going on. I know and i have a lot going on. But gosh if i had the right client where i could at least consult with you on designing activities. That would elicit emotional safety. Illicit compassion self compassion. Because the when i'm doing i teaching it's it can be very difficult for for participants to go there engineer and i have talked about the so creating the environments of safety that's tricky and it's nuanced and unique per the organization and the person so all that to say we'll talk more that sounds that's actually something i have been doing to do more which is training the trainers like i would say i have maybe five to ten hours of activities that you can do depends on how long your workshops are does that kind of stuff and it's proven works with artists and non artists to get everybody on the same page and at different levels every really fun to get people together maybe all check into a hotel and get trained together. Yeah let's let's talk more. That would be great. Yeah a lot of fun all right. Emily was so fun. I really really enjoyed it. I'm just so grateful and it's gonna make me love your music with our podcast even more. Of course you know so. I feel connected. Nice you should listen to my new album thing you enjoy it. You can listen with your kids. Yeah hey listen. Do we have a link to it so we can put it in the show notes. Because i would love that. So my website is. Emily dash loud dot com. And you can link there and of course all of my albums and everything is available on all digital channel. That's not the way to support or not as however it's available you can get on butterfly. Everything is it's there and apple itunes. Okay and what's the name of the new album. The new album is called. I'll of majesty. Okay saw that a new website and i was just in fact i was just i was so i think you'll love it over. Classic awesome were ten. Emily thank you so much blessings Is emily not the voice of personal agency in self-discovery. Oh my gosh gosh from her experience as a second grader to her continual reinventing of herself her artistry in her contribution. She's taken ownership without apology. She's so well spoken about her journey into becoming having turning points and mentors who captured her essence and encouraged it. She's had so many influences along the way her early example of her mother role modeling the idea of not waiting for permission or even feeling the need to ask for. It was such a wakeup call for me. Hear that underlying theme in her teaching as well. No one is going to give you permission to evolve in create. Why way sees it i love. She sees herself as tending to her students. Moshe hello what a the receiving her. I think they're so lucky to just be in her space and in her world by hook or by crook i can work with her in some capacity. I'm going to get half an emily is. She's filled with compassion and even when she was talking about how she valued difficult experiences that she valued all the experience that she's had she has compassion for others of every interaction. Type ones that were difficult. That were easier helped fluoro- not and i can see exactly how she creates safe and beautiful spaces around her for others to be included in. She talked about wanting to collaborate with others early on about the types of relationships. She wanted to have with her collaborators. Those friendships and she simply becomes someone who makes that magic happened around herself. What a kick to have her on the show so listeners. Taking her lead episodes. Drop every second tuesday. If you've liked what you've heard please subscribe rate and review the show on i tunes. Your support makes a difference in howard discovered by listeners. And thank you. We were so excited to see a few more reviews on itunes kiddies all children when we read them so thank you so much for your generosity. If you're interested in the work that we do please subscribe and share the podcast with your network. Your supported the show takes us closer to our goal of creating a wide reaching platform for women in leadership to share their unique stories. Please share your thoughts and reactions to our guests at taking her lead dot blueberry b. l. u. b. r. y. dot net. We'd also love for you to connect with us on linked in. And we certainly encourage you to follow us on twitter. We've just captured listeners. On the iberian peninsula we remain humbled by the increase listenership and we are really passionate about our guests. Stories are impacting women and men around the world taking her leads. Wonderful theme music was of course composed by emily lau and are beautiful. Logo was designed by creative director elizabeth beers for all the women who are in leadership positions of influence. And all of those who wanna be bringing the best version of yourself forward. You make a difference. This is janine accountable. I fell and this. Is joshua mayor talk teason.

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Classical Classroom, Episode 183: All-Star Ashley Bathgate's Primer on New Classical Music

Classical Classroom

42:06 min | 3 years ago

Classical Classroom, Episode 183: All-Star Ashley Bathgate's Primer on New Classical Music

"Hey, guys, it's your host station. So if you're listening to the classical classroom podcast, it's legacy that you're aware that there is a world of classical music out there in that. It's got something to do with these guys Bach Beethoven Brahms. Most of it was written a really long time ago. All that good stuff. And you may have wondered how on earth that music is related to this more avant-garde experimental world of music out there that also calls itself classical like Philip glass in John cage. Well in this episode cellist, Ashley Bathgate explains that link and she kind of gives a primer on what's going on in the new classical music world, and what is kind of lending to the world of classical music as a whole. I learned a ton by talking to Ashley it was really fun. And I hope you learn a lot too. I think you will when you do when you're like, oh my God. It's like I've gotten a free education because. You have make sure you go on over to I tunes or wherever you listen. And you subscribe to rate and review the show makes a whole lot of difference for us, and it takes like, two seconds. I mean, come on. Okay. And now a word from our sponsor. This episode of classical classroom is sponsored by maestro classics visit muster classics dot com today to take advantage of their cyber Monday sale all CDs with twenty four page activity books. Regularly price at sixteen ninety eight are on sale for only nine ninety eight and include free shipping. You can also get the maestro classics twelve CD box set an excellent gift for the holidays for only eighty nine ninety five visit Maestra classics dot com today and give the gift of classical music this holiday season, not a bad idea. All right now on with the show. There's a rumor going around that classical music can be hoity toity. But here in the possible classroom, we beg to differ. Beethoven faa. Cross Koby his home where we have to feel restricted or we have to act a certain way, that's not going to be helpful going forward shaking with excitement. I mean, there's just so many great parts of the opera PS me to play his favorite spot in the first round. I started using those Lixin megatons alone. How do classical music Rockstars because there's not enough of that in this business. Choosing blogging demanding to my store. I don't change my voice and talking to class. I'm playing classical music now. I mean, yeah. Same twelve notes. That's what's so cool about it. I'm basically a classical music newbie. And I'm trying to learn all I can about the music come with me. And the classical music experts. I invite in to the classical classroom. Hello everyone. Welcome to the classical classroom. I am Dacia Clinton here. With me today is cellist Ashley Bathgate in addition to actually solo work, which she's here in Seattle touring. Ashley is probably best known for being a member of the bang on a can Allstars. She's also part of the chamber group howl as well as duo, two cents and the quintet called Bonjour, actually, welcome. Hi, thanks for having me. So just got to hear your super cool performance and the cello in our CD ivory. Thanks happy. I got to do it here. And what was the name of that piece again, it's called para? So which is the name of my cello teacher. Chrome Yale so cool and you brought your pug with you. She's my buddy cute. And now she's here, buddy. Yeah. That's great. Very fetching sweater for the cold weather. So it's interesting this new music festival, which I think this is her first inaugural. It got me thinking a little about new classical music and an uncle classroom. We've done several music specifically about new classical music, like Niko, mealy, Missy Muzuli stark land records people like that. What we've never talked about. With regard to new classical, though, is that there are these parts of it. The people don't really think of as classical. There are things that you use to make the music like loop pedals. But then there are also things about how the music is composed and the techniques that are used to it and stuff. I was hoping we could talk about that today. Her absolutely. Let's start with tech. What are things that you incorporate into the music, and what are things that you've seen other people do things you like to try. So I use mostly able to live and max for live. They're both software programs and that allows me to use plug ins and effects on my sound. I have an interface, you know, that my microphone goes into which feeds into my computer and allows for live processing, and that kind of integration. I have done some looping though, there are much more experienced and more brilliant loopers out there. So I think that's something that I want to do more of kind of hone that skill a little bit. And I think now that I've kind of I won't say mastered. But got a grip on software land in probably getting some good hardware and some pedals. Yeah. I have a pretty nice fuzz box that I love when I do Michael Gordon's industry, but I want I want to have that pedal board. Yeah. And I play with an amazing Qatar. Mark Stewart in banging a can. And so he's feet away from me every show, and I'm drooling over his candy on the floor. You know that he uses for all these effects, and in general, that's why I got into using electronics in the first place because you know, I've played cello for a very long time, certainly in contemporary music. We are asked to do a lot of what we call extended techniques, which might be different sounds on the instrument that you wouldn't consider traditional. We can talk more about that. But then using amplification is a whole other world and allows for a different color palette and using pedals. In addition for guitarist, it's kind of essential like that's their color palette. Right. You have your your sound. And then you build on that with with whatever you need to. And I watch him use these things in such a musical way and with such purpose. And so I think that as a string player that's something. I would like to be more versed in. Is that I have so much. I can call from my own technique and skill sets. But that is a another pallets that I want in my in my repertoire and my wheelhouse. So maybe that's something to strive for. But at the moment, I'm working with these software programs, and that's a pretty transportable rig. You know, you're talking just a laptop interface microphone some in-year monitors and so- composers, right? I commissioned a lot of music, and they write with me in minds and a lot of composers today are using Macs MS p which is a composition in and of itself. So let's say you write a piece of music for cellist. But then you're also writing a software patch, which is basically a visual, coding and mapping one thing to another and allows you to kind of specify and make very specifically the. Kind of like range and timing of the effects, or it can get very complicated. And then for someone like me who who is not trained in that software program. They've made it very easy by sending me this patch, which I integrate through Abelson, and I'm able to do the peace that way with live processing, so one of the pieces. I'm playing on this tour is by Yasha Narva sin called flash crash, and he has a really complicated setup. But it's it's easy for me. I just opened the project, and I plug in and I- trigger some things with my feet. I have a Midi controller with allow me to treat her affects advance the music, can there's a certain element to with live processing that allows for spontaneity and improvisation that I like a lot. That's really cool. You know, as you were talking something that came to mind was the fact that the game changers for classical music over the years, at least from what I know have been the ability to project sound how guitar sort of fell out of favour. That's right. When symphony orchestras began playing in these big halls, and you couldn't hear the guitar or the fact that chamber music is usually played in a smaller room because that's how it sounds best. You're gonna hear the strings playing all the instruments playing. So is thinking about like, how has this technology change things in that way? Like like, what kind of venues are? Now, it will play and stuff like that. That's a big conversation. Actually, I think I think it's good and bad. I think everything has pros and cons. I would say it's not even just tech. But this always the feeling of bigger better louder, right? And so you're right as it's volved and concert spaces are larger and audience to accommodate larger audiences, and such even as a cellist, I know that from playing concerto. Does with orchestra. It's really hard to project. You know? So then instrument makers started making louder instruments, right? So you buy a louder instrument you can compete with that. But you still kind of can't override a whole Symphony Orchestra all of the time. And I think composers aren't necessarily always tuned into balance the way that maybe some of the more classical composers were because they didn't have microphones and everything there's a sort of expectation. Well, we have the technology. So we're going to write how we want to write. And then we'll see and we'll we'll tweak it that way. I think that that can be good in many ways because it certainly gives me freedom. You know, if I have a microphone in someone else's able to control my sound and means I don't have to force. I can play the dynamic range that I want you know, if I'm playing in a bigger venue. Concerto, and I really want to achieve a pianissimo or something very soft sounding I really can't do that unless the orchestra's willing to come down to absolutely nothing, which is not always the case. And you know, you kind of have to exaggerate everything. Yeah. With amplification and with affects I think you don't have to you can play what's written. I can play within a huge dynamic range and count on the fact that a sound engineer is going to ride the failures and make it all work. And that's that's another thing though, the big it becomes very much duo like my solo concerts are really not solo their duo. If you have a sound engineer like that is the person who's making it all happen. And it's super important thing in a can also we we have to sound engineers we travel with and so thankful for them, you know, for making it so easy for us. And so that's that's another thing. I don't know if that answers, and you were asking about Ben. News. I think. Music is changing. So that we have to adapt to a lot of different surroundings. And what constitutes a concert hall is very different. Now, it can be a rock club. It can be a living room. It can be a huge, you know, space like Carnegie Hall, but Carnegie Hall is not the normal. You know? That's not where we're playing most of our concerts. I think most concerts are happening in. Smaller maybe smaller venues and also weirder places like say outdoors, or you have an installation or museums where you play and technology has made that a lot easier, you know, making things more portable and being able to set up a sound system in a space that otherwise might not accommodate live music. Yeah. I was just seeing about like like Matt haimovitz the being the first classical music to play at him at CBGB's. Yeah. Just a rock venue. That's famous for for punk bands, like the Ramones and and stuff like that. Right. And here here he is with the chiller some Hendrix. No when I was really young actually in his who's doing star spangled banner and Hendrix was really awesome. Yeah. There's a fine year of that. And very I'm guessing tech for that to happen because a club is meant for you know, amplified instruments. Maybe maybe not, you know, I. 'cause I he doesn't play with a lot of affect. So he he actually I think when acoustic in a lot of situations like that. Yeah. Unabashedly, you know, kind of like this is what it is. I can play here too. Yeah. And it's you know, most clubs would have a microphone or an out that in good run through. But I I'm guessing that it started out pretty basic in terms of that. And from that starting point, you know, we've like everything else complicated. Yeah. But simpler in my experiences better in that regard, especially when you're touring and traveling. You don't wanna get too complicated with at all because it's always a different venue to different situation, you know, sound checks and trouble shooting. And if it starts you start getting overloaded with affects and processing all this stuff that can be really fun, but not always practical. So I have a I have kind of a line. You know that I draw where it's like all right? That's just enough for me. And for what I want to achieve and and put out there musically. Oh, also, I I want my sound to be as Fenwick as possible and not over processed over affected. It's still as much natural cello sound as you can get or if I'm singing vocally that it's that it's real, and it's me and not just neon stage. But you're hearing something that's gone through so many different tubes and wires to to sound like something completely different. I guess again, you think of a few pieces of classical music that have really. Benefited from involving kinds of tech effects pedals, and what have you well industry? I mean, the music of Michael Gordon industry is a piece that he wrote for solo cello and distortion and typically the sound engineers controlling the disortion. So it kind of comes in as as a surprise. And it starts out as this acoustic sound that gets more and more worked and change near. For me that was. One of the first pieces that I played with affects and it was really transformative. And I felt I had this huge sound that I never would have had and I had this distortion, right? This with these overtones and difference tones kind of here. The lower frequency below the note. I'd never heard. And I couldn't believe that. My instrument was producing those sounds that you wouldn't here if I just played acoustically. You would only hear that through a pickup, and you know, this pedal. That was big for me. Another piece more symphonic work that he wrote called weather. Also, incorporates distortion and kind of other audio offense and sampling, and I remember when I first joined thing in a can I listened to that piece in God? Like, that's the thing. Because the first movement of it is so sort of evolved e Bach you reminiscent. So it really, you know, getting back to what you were saying about classical music. This actually does tie into tradition and structure kind of hearkens back to that music yet it spins it in a totally different direction because you've got all these different effects happening on the back ends. So one of the other pieces that I heard, of course, Steve rush wrote all of these counterpoint, there's Pano counterpoint cello counterpoint, Vermont counterpoint for flutes violin counterpoint, and maybe one of the more famous ones is electric counterpoint, which is for electric guitars. I think it's eight electric this piece many guitars have done like they've made different versions of it. They've done it in a live scenario where we have all eight people playing live. So that also hearing that kind of multi tracking which was you know, I think you're talking like that in the nineties and early 'oughts when these pieces were written and at that time you would like bring a CD right play this and I'll play along. And now, it's it's different use MP three year AIFF file or you integrated into your own software and late all eight channel. At the same time. That was huge for me to see someone and really inspiring. Why I actually started doing more solar recitals because I got very excited that I didn't have to be just one voice. I could be eight I could be fifteen this piece para so that I just recorded here. You know, that's eleven and then you perform the solo, you know, line over that work a stra of yourself in. It's also something you build from the ground up. Right. I go into the studio, and I build it from the baseline up and just kind of get it, just right? And so I built this thing that I then put into my life performances. It's like making chamber music and having an orchestra but being a solo performer. So I'm taking a little break from my chat with Ashley Bathgate to tell you about our new website because it's super frigging cool. It's a classical classroom show dot com. It's got some awesome. New features such as free downloadable lesson plans. Instead, he guides for you teachers out there, you can also find all of our backup is you can connect with us on the social media's. And now there's a little button that says tip jar where you can leave us a one time or recurring gift if you want to support the work, we do on the podcast, I'm talking like a buck or three bucks and you get little the's for two. And if you wanna website that the school is ours good, look just getting used actually contact our friends at new why they made it for us, and they can make you a great site to. They can also help you promote it. For more information about new I go to classical classroom show dot com slash in w that's in as in new and w as in y all right now back to my chat with Ashley Becky. From compositional point of view. I know that you and your various coup performers in your various projects you commission Newark's by living composers. I guess you wouldn't be commissioning works by dead composer's because that would be weird. An awkward. I wanna talk about like, some of the less orthodox things that you're seeing there like what kind of things are people doing in new compositions that they may be haven't done in the past writes. Well, I think that you know, for me when I first started playing contemporary music in school. It was still considered twentieth century. So for instance, shoenberg was contemporary music. And of course, cage lock Inman even cough ski. So there were all these. What is classical music? You know, what is new music blurry? And I think what started to happen in the twentieth century, not only twelve tone and serial composition. But then beyond that so use of different intonation systems like playing in just intonation or tempered, tempered would be like the piano, how the pow pianos tuned, which is kind of what we consider normal in western world, just intonation or like pathetic Rian tuning is, maybe more east or what you'd hear an Indian classical music, and like it's all about sense. Right. So how sharp or flat note is micro tonality the relationships of the notes to each other the intervals like third or fourth. You know, perfect perfect. But thirds tune differently. It's how you hear it. So to our ears. It would be a little strange, but it's actually this very or. Ganic resonating kind of tuning system and that spills into conversation about like overtones and undertones difference tones and like why things vibrate. The way they do like, why frequencies might be more intense or when they're absolutely perfect. They're huge sounding. And when they're not so perfect, it might not resonate as clearly that is kind of in my opinion extended technique, and like where a lot of music, especially when we started emerging east and west and embracing world music and different styles. And John RAs, we did just that we embraced it. And we kind of said, oh, yeah. That can be new music too. And that is also a classical style. So it it evolves in really beautiful way. And then of course, you have really imaginative composers who invent things like they invent not only different sounds playing on the other side of the bridge. Scratched home, you know, like embracing. What maybe you would call ugly Ordina ways. Yeah. That's now music, you know, making I have composers asked me all the time. No. I wanted earlier want I want that. No. I don't want the pitch to come through. Or? No, I want that like out of tune. That's great. Or I want that really thin raspy sound so sort of embracing all of the different ways that the instrument can can make sound not this this classically trained version of itself anymore. It's sort of embracing imperfection in a really beautiful way. So those there are those things playing with Punto cello, which is playing near the bridge. And you get very naturally distorted sound and by doing that. So I could play my cello for you acoustically without any effect on it. And have it imitate. What distortion sounds like okay or playing very close to the fingerboard or even way way up, you know, towards the halfway Mark on the string between. The end of the fingerboard and the scroll of the cello. And there are these nodes and places where it resonates in a funky way. I learned about something called Wolfe tone. Oh, yeah. Wolf towns are like a cello. Swertz enemy. Okay. These are bad. We don't we don't want to don't want them to get yet. It's a really super cool. Sound somebody's going to write a piece for me one day? That's all about my cello. Wolfe tones. It's like, it's the way the wood is vibrating Hugli the shape like the shape of a cello. How the air is resonating in its and it now it's like two frequencies that are almost identical. But they're clashing. And so it's rub they're rubbing up against each other. And they're kind of creating this. So you have like it's usually on an effort f sharp below middle c where you get this kind of ugly wolf e sound, and this is apparently like a problem that all chilous have it's mostly a cello problem. And we have wolf eliminators who fool imitators there's a whole market for like the ways to alleviate and get rid of your Wolfe tone. So anyway, there are all these extended technique, and this comes through improvisation and through mines experimenting and being just having crazy ideas. And not only that then you have the musical language, which is how do we know Tate that how do we write this down? Can't just write paragraphs and paragraphs on a score explaining exactly what we mean. Sometimes I find that very helpful like when? But you know, you've got to find your language. So now, even notation is what is standard is changing. You have like squiggle marks. And you know, how to Notat certain types of gla, sandy, how do Tate different kinds of abroad show and Ponta cello. There's like multo soul ponts and pogo SEL ponds and frog and here and there and stutter Bill like Andrew Norman one of the composers. I play a lot of his music. He's invented. I think he's own sound world and language, you know, with stutter both. So it's almost sounds like if you were really nervous. Yeah. In your pulling the bow cross the string, and you get this. But it's this beautiful like very fragile sound. You know, how do we know Tate this? So so composers of these scores are becoming works of art. It's like this graphic notation that we haven't seen and a lot of times, you know, certainly with more complicated music really takes a long time for performer to kind of digest that learn those new terms and symbols memorize the master them, incorporate them, interpret them, and then of course, especially when you're commissioning and collaborating with composers your in a sense, helping them discover things so they might ask me to do something. And then I do what I think they're telling me to do. And it's something totally different and other. They say, oh, I hate that. Or I love that. How how what is that? What are you doing like? So you kind of volley back and forth and at the end of. But you have this new piece of music that we've kind of collaborated on. And that's that's part of why I love playing contemporary music too is because dead composer's are dead composer's. You can't really collaborate or talk to them or ask them. Well, what did you mean, you can only interpret with living composers, I can actually ask them. You know, it's very easy to Email them or Skype them or have them there in person. And certainly when they're writing for you. You know, I've been in wonderful situations at retreats residencies where you're actually in the room together before the pieces even written. And I remember Ted her commissioned him to write a. Cello and percussion peace. And he came to me with this idea of a wine cork in between the strings, and he said, we'll try and whips out. His iphone says, let's record some let's see all the different sounds. You can make this wine cork moving up down between the fingerboard in the bridge. Putting it in in between different strings playing pizzicato playing ARCO on either side of the core. Erku our co is playing with the bow though, the more like some sort of sustained lyrical sound, and then you have pits, which is plucking the strings and with the cork, you get these really cool. Gong sounds almost. And it distorts the pitch changes it entirely move. It up down the pitch changes. All this really cool stuff. You know? And then he we worked together on that. He takes what he likes from it rights piece. You know, you know, what I'm playing with percussionist on that particular work. And I thought he did. A really magical job of. Making a cello almost into a progressive instruments, you know, and having echo each other really interesting in different ways. So there's just this idea of what his classical what is new is just ever evolving and ever changing. And they're just words, you know. But it sounds like when I'm kind of kind of hearing, you say is the what's happened like how classical music has evolved. And and the and is kind of like the way the whole world has evolved. And that we're all like, an how culture has evolved that we're all we're all so connected now, I think the same as being expressed in classical music in like, so many ways in its language and its incorporation of sound from other countries and terms of like weird stuff you put in your instrument to make it. Make sounds just the idea of what the music can be has kind of come out of of a box. There's no ceiling anymore. There are no walls. It's a world without borders in that way. And I think that's what people you know, institutions like banging a can and is and Cronos worked so hard for in the seventies and eighties nineties. It was to break down those borders and walls. So that people like me in this generation of performers and musicians didn't have to worry about it. We can focus on creating and not breaking down walls. You know? I mean there there are always walls to be broken down. Don't get me wrong. But but for the most part, I feel very free in my industry, and and being a musician. I feel like even when people say don't do that. It doesn't mean anything. It's like don't do what. Yeah. I knew you to say, so it's it really there's a lot of cross pollination going on even you know, this bleeding between genres a lot of the indie rock scene kind of collaborating and with this, quote, unquote, classical music scene and mice versa. You know, more traditional classically trained composers who are venturing into the singer songwriter world, you know, and writing shorter tunes and making these kinds of transitions I Dave Longstreth of the dirty projectors. That's a good example. He actually went to Yale. I think little before my time, and he was studying with Martin bresnik. And and I remember Martin saying like leave that one alone. Like, he's just he's doing great things. And he's doing his own thing. He's doing him and kind of you know, so he was taking composition lessons and studying composition. But yet he became this. Like kind of indie rock star like Bristol's, ner rights desert. Some other example, and other yearly actually really from the L. I'm gonna be we're gonna listen to this like yes Harvard rules, but yeah, he he's another perfect example being in the national. He actually he does. Everything. I mean, he plays in the national, and he writes with them. But I know he's also got a very strong foothold in the the, you know, this classical community and writing for more, like chamber music, and and orchestra. So I think it's wonderful. I think it's amazing. And I think it's interesting because when you when you hear that music when you hear somebody like Bryce, they're doing new and interesting things in your contemporary human being this things connect with you. And you're like where did that come from? And then you start listening to where where it came from. And and where that came from. And then where that came from which brings me to kinda my last question, which is what's the same. Because we've got to talk about that. Because there's yeah. There is a sort of through my in between like Bach. What's happening now on thank God for that. Yeah. I think but people are playing like bowls of water now. Like like, how do we? From Bach to that. The most important things for me are. Awareness of tradition and. Structure in a piece position. Like, I think structure from my viewpoint is a very hard thing to achieve as both a performer and composer piece younger composers like you can have a lot of great ideas. And great sounds. You can write a forty five minute piece. But that forty five minute piece might not have an arc or a flow where the right structure that makes it a great piece of music. So and structure comes from tradition and comes from Bach and Beethoven and Brahms and Schubert, and and and if you wanna go back even further to like renaissance Motete s- was his name Jesualdo like so you can go far far back into whatever classical music is for you and find where it came from. So it's very important that we do look back, and that we sort of incorporate, and I it's this very slow. It's like a. A glacier. That's what I feel like music is is this huge glacier. That's moving. We can't see it moving as imperceptible, but it's moving over hundreds and hundreds of years so for everyone who's kind of going off the beaten path, and experimenting and doing all sorts of different things than there are people who are more traditionalist, and there are people doing both. And it's kind of it's inching forward, and it might go back a little bit and then inches forward some more, but always maintaining this kind of I of the hurricane like. Center about it that has both worlds. And I think that that is really important, and it's it's important in education, especially people studying to to be in music that we do have that tradition, which I had the, you know, the only thing I wished as a student was that I did more of the other which more maybe improvisation more jazz more experimenting and kind of it took me until you know, later after school joining bang on a can where I began to embrace those ugly sounds that I was talking about or embrace mistakes. There can be a lot of anxiety and pressure on like how something should sound. I'm based on what came before. And I think new music is beautiful. And it's it's new and it hasn't been recorded. Knows how it should sound. There's this freedom. And that's how I now approach older music. Whenever I go back and play Bach or Beethoven Brahms or any of those composers. I look at it. Like, a new piece of this new way that you've learned how to be with music has shut a new new light on this very old vast off. And I think I just wish that those two things could merge sooner in life for people. I think they are. I think that colleges and universities, and even hopefully, you know elementary on up are becoming more aware of that and incorporating those things contemporary music is playing a bigger role in education, and I just want. I wanna see that happen more. And when I do visit schools or when I do or coming demonstrate or lecture. I I like to talk about that, you know, just encourage people to to get off the page, you know, and don't spend all your time in a practice room, go out and play with other. People out and talk to other people collaborate like that's what you know. You have so much time, you know, and everybody says oh enjoy it while it lasts. And you're like Heidel always be there. And then you realize you get into real life and professional life, and you don't have you have very little time. Yeah. So that's what I wish I could see more of is not only that we're doing classical music and tradition, but we're also bringing as much of the new and the experimental into that kind of really platform of in that those stages of development because that's kind of where it counts, you know, it's much harder later in life too. Teaching dog matrix. And we're back to Dr. This man, this has been so much fun. Actually. Thank you so much for taking the time to come into the same me have so much fun on your tour. I hope you enjoy the drive on the west coast. Right. What is it US one one one? Oh one. Okay. Yeah. I've never done that you'll have too much. All right, everyone that does it for this episode of classical classroom for more classroom. Go to classical classroom show dot com, by the way, if you hadn't heard our website has some awesome new features that you could go check out right now, you can download free lesson plans. Instead, he guys for many of our episodes. You can leave a message, and if you're feeling so moved, and you probably are I can tell if you want to support the work that we do on classical classroom. You can do so financially. Just click the little button that says tip jar. And we'll give you a little something in return for your efforts. As always you can also Email us at classical classroom show at g mail dot com. Thanks today to the home of classical classroom. King FM in Seattle where we will leave those things giving leftovers in the fridge until the turn into science experiments. Thanks to our birthplace. Houston public media. They the official life coach of classical classroom winning with Winona. We make winters now. Weiner's thanks to actually Bathgate for being on the show today. Thanks to me for saying words, but most of all thanks to you for listening. We'll catch the next time.

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PT59: On Florence Price and Diversity in Programming, with Jordan Randall Smith

Podium Time

52:18 min | 2 years ago

PT59: On Florence Price and Diversity in Programming, with Jordan Randall Smith

"Welcome to podium time the PODCAST for conductors students. When I don't think that doesn't mean you have to throw away Beethoven okay. He's not going anywhere more than double performances to Beethoven. And every single woman composer but we need to six or seven Beethoven symphonies in the course of two years or could we have had some personal responsibility to make sure that we're familiar with all the Beethoven symphonies on our own. Yeah that's all that's all you know. Then you're just going to continue to go out there and you're going to be an amateur with regard to every composer that you've never seen before. Hi there everyone Jeremy De Cuevas here. This is part two of our interview with Jordan. Randall Smith two weeks ago. He released the first part which we talked about early career and starting ensembles and we are continuing that with the story of how Jordan is helping found the Florence price festival happening next year so we talk with Jordan a lot about who florence prices and why she has blown up as a figure in the past few years and the process of building that festival we also speak about diversity and in quality and why those are important on programming. And how you can find great works by these underrepresented composers. Also the billboards are both at the end of this episode and They were really really helpful for me personally. So stick around for that to To get some of Jordan's advice finally please let us know what you think about this episode or any of our interviews send us a message on facebook tweeted us. Send us a direct message on instagram. Or send us an email through the contact page on our website. Let's know what you like or would you don't like in who you would like us to interview next. We are in a new round of interviews building up a couple episodes to end the year and our third season strong so reach out. Let us know what you think about the podcast and let us know who you would like to hear on podium time and I am recently Part of a group called while it's it's a it's a new organization that setup tubes Do Have Music Festival. Honor Buzzer Florence price in. So I'm one of the creative directors behind the International Spice Festival which is set to happen. inaugural was. GonNa be in August of twenty twenty in Washington. Dc So get the word out there and get as many folks possible. Show up really help us. Celebrate is really important poser newest. So let's Yes well let's move into the Florence price stuff You know for those of us. Don't know Tillis bit about her. First prize was the first African American woman to see a composer. See Her music performed by a major American Orchestra and that happened in nineteen thirty three with the Chicago Symphony under your stock in. He performed her First Symphony On a concert dedicated to African American Composer primarily composed of academic composers which was pretty radical thing to be doing in the thirties. No matter what city you're going to be doing however that didn't instantly rocket her to fame. And you you need more people perform the music and so She was. She was a excellent entrepreneur Good entrepreneur lessons for how to get your orchestra started good look no further than Florence Price. She she wrote letters to conductors. Like you just would not believe. She was writing at In all the other composers well known for performing New Music But she wasn't getting a lot of traction in fact she ran to reject shock on the streets of Chicago About eleven years after that CHICAGO WORLD'S FAIR PERFORMANCE THIRTY THREE ASIA. About five. Ten years later she runs into him and it was kind of awkward. Conversation is used he performed but then he just Kinda left her there the altar. And that was it. You know there was nothing more to it and That's one of the many principles that we have to adopt is actually kind of figuring out how to get behind specific composers and not just constantly rotating new people in but finding that you're gonNA committed to performing multiple times over the of your career But putting aside she wrote she wrote four different symphonies The Fourth of which was just premiered era by the Fort Smith Symphony under John Jeeter The recording which is now available for Naxos a highly recommend bookstore. Check out that recording of the first in fourth symphonies and the Third Symphony and the fragment that we have of the Second Symphony There are talks of a recording another recording coming out sometime next couple of years there but nothing nothing firm there at this time that I know of but she read these symphonies violent control Schmidt Piano Concerto. Really every genre at you can think of in of this to me was a pretty critical because You know even among composers who are women. Let's say for instance oftentimes even even you look at any beach and people like that. I don't know that she really wrote as many different works in as many different genres as did Price Not that has to be a competition but the point being that she was a very prolific composer even with the means that she had which was not access to enough orchestras enough Champions of her music is there is there should have been and so all of us that are working on. This project have released some combination of some of the folks on the project. For Instance Doug Shadow was a federal vanderbilt and rookies Carter of the whole examples of some great scholars. That have been writing about her. Marquees wrote his doctoral dissertation. They just got published last year on On her songs So some things have been done but not nearly enough of Wigan just say sort of the white establishment has not done a good job of getting behind our music from the beginning that comes through Shurmur Upper catalog but they had a chance at our catalog fifty years ago when they passed on that. So you look at the performance that have passed on it as well and I really only woke up to when the sort of I guess you could say the white journalistic establishment in the form of New York Times The New Yorker in two thousand eighteen within a week of each other they each published a a major piece on on price and that was what really woke me up to all of a sudden and heard the name. You know. There's dozens of composers that you may not have performed. You're going yeah. Somebody should really check out what that's all about but I just don't have time to get everybody time so it was in the back of my head but I you know I couldn't have passed the drop the needle test on price the time by any stretch okay but rather to articles and then I go okay and then it was actually that spring. I was looking for programming ideas with my group at Johns Hopkins and speaking to a conductor and he said Oh. You've got to check out the do these certain pieces by horns price. Yes right price. Because just two months ago I read all these things in that one thought. Okay drop what you're doing. Listen TO EVERY RECORDING. You can find a Out there really get familiar with composer. Get very serious about it and that was really the moment that I really latched onto. So I'm really personally Really late comer within the last year and a half I'm a I'm a bandwagon jumper really. You know but so I I'm I'm just trying to evangelize others to to kind of explore this terrific composer. Great great musical depth and character and Just kind of vivid vision of what the orchestra do who also happens to have this deeply compelling personal story you know in an era of where I mean if you saw the article George did recently have all these kind of forgotten American masterpieces within the BBC. Music magazine or gramophone. One of the Jew. But he did this article but it was always American masterpieces. That kinda got put aside because the name of the composer was not your Stravinsky or Arnold Shurmur real on it is put to the side okay. So she had that going for her but then she also Era where it was really almost totally going to be white. Men was GONNA be the poses that people would put the effort into programming or taken seriously as A. She didn't have that work for her either. A mess shows up frankly in that article because he listed a whole bunch of American masterpieces and Amazon. One of them was a white guy which is great guy myself. You can't see this if you're listening but I am but not you know we. We need to figure out how I have a more equitable and a more inclusive kind of environment for For Composers Out there to have their music performed and in for us as listeners to get dead enjoy the richness of everything. That's out there. Why do you think that that? There's been such a resurgence of interest in her. Would you know what what caused the two articles within a week of each other? Yes The impetus was at what's back about ten years. There was a cabin in Illinois in rural Illinois where the owners of the cabin took a look in a basement. Area are an addict or something. I can't remember where but the kind of a storage face and the previous owners had left behind. All these boxes in one of those boxes were what turned out to be tons of manuscripts of music. Florence price and so for a lot of music was just loss. You know that was part of the problem was and by the way this brings up an important topic which is that. The composer himself was not rediscovered. she's been known she didn't written about our Jackson and And the Raila Brown did a ton of Ray. Scholarship on her over the decades It's just a lot of her individual pieces of those actually were lost. We Lost Bach. We're still finding sometimes but did you use it was found in his cabinets while that got transferred to the University of Arkansas. Into her papers. That's where all our papers are kept and into. There are guys and for a long time. Just it by bit. People were pulling out works in creating their own versions for free. They have to go to work to create a performing edition of something And what was really starting to happen. Was all that was coming to fruition because now the two violin concertos urging gang. Who's the finest on faculty? The University of Arkansas. At say I believe at forgive me or genus saying the wrong school But one of the University of Arkansas schools and she's also a former With the Fort Smith Symphony and with other groups but she she had done an additional String quartets and she had Commissioned a recording of the violin controls so that recording had just come out and so now in in in the for seventy was just about to receive its premiere in their own was hearing about this information and so a lot of the major orchestral works. Were finally coming out of the woodwork in being available for the first time and also happening in the early arts eighteen. So I think that's really what what was the yeah impetus roll back and then But yeah there's divert lots of stories that would go along. It makes me think maybe it would make a good movie some flashbacks her life and forward just discovering. Oh my goodness such a compelling story and she is that you know we haven't even black around the fact that she was a mom. She was raising her two children. So this is just the total antithesis of the typical idea of a scrappy. Single White Dude. You know smoke can do whatever you can live in this kind of starving artist lifestyle. Nothing against smokers. I guess something smoking but not criticizing US person. If you're you're smoker. There have been a picture of the complete opposite of all of those things and she had discipline about her. I mean she. She was going and taking lessons with Other composers some of whom were even younger than her even well into her forties and fifties using establish composer but she just never stop learning never gave up and people like her good friend former student. At what point in his life later on a former point Margaret bonds who they lived together for a time after she was divorced from her husband and So she was a single mom and yet she managed to write all these tremendous pieces of music. Assad is particular. Just bring out She just has an amazing harmonic vocabulary. That I don't know of anyone doing anything quite like what she does In in her song so highly recommend people go. Check those out what I love to see too. Is I love to see a conductor or a or a composer produced a set of orchestrations of a lot of her songs. They just I think tremendous when added at the the orchestral talent to to what she's already doing. What are some of that? What some of the highlights of which which are her songs that we should start with. I hardly even know where to I. The plastic one is well known as Leontyne Price. No relation had done In the Lord my soul been angered Lord that that's probably the most quintessential recording of one of her sons and that's really arrangement of a spiritual is not an original song but it at didn't keep anybody from taking it seriously to be sure and so could you talk about the festival coming up next year. Sure while I think idea there is you know I think Mozart and Beethoven seemed like they. Each have a festival in every city. Globally at seems like every city's got their own one of each right named festivals. And it occurred some of us that I think price really belongs in sort of the C. Suite of composers she really belongs in the in the so-called Pantheon and to name of festival after composer signifies prominence that I think is well deserved in her case. So that that gives you the name and the focus because there's a lot of music that has yet to be fully discovered. I mean there manuscripts that people don't even know There's still a process of discovery happening and mentioned the outset. Let alone you know. There's not a single might knowledge significant book just on Hurriyet. We've got hundreds of scholarship on composers but none on her yet. So our hope is due center. Her focus on her and to lead the way in whether it be commissioning performing edition of new works or a critical edition of works. Already have a edition. Or if it's Like I mentioned arranging Songs so they'd be performed orchestra or just giving up a lot of cases. I mean listen I I think three days ago for the first time I heard a recording of her work at IDEO BS shadow in America for the free movement continuous work. I performed the Middle Movement. Which can work as a standalone proposition. But there wasn't a single recording. I could even find out movements of of the whole work just this week I discovered in. I think it was just uploaded in April even waiting here this thing. So that's one of the hubs to is just to give recordings reference reportings out there so people can figure out what works that they could try to. I mean there's a piece that Shurmur just finished publishing dances the short the shortest multi movement work. I've found yet of of crisis for America stretches six minutes long so it's great and in cases where you have most of your program built out yet a little more time trying to figure out something small and maybe a little lighter to do But there's no recording of that. Somebody's gotta get in there and make a recording of it so there are all those purposes that are directly focused on price on her music in that I think is a twenty year or maybe a fifty year mission to it takes a long time to unearth everything. So there's immediately I think if you if you check out our website price fest dot Org. You'll see we went into kind of our mission our vision and values the idea of thinking about her legacy. You know thinking about all the reasons why we're just now getting the world premiere sixty five years after Passed away fifty three. We're getting her for something premiered in two thousand eighteen. Okay why did it take sixty five years? Get that to happen in. What can we do to reduce that for composers? Let's take opposes of color or women composers other composers coming from marginalized groups hacking. We make certain that no composer is getting left behind the left on the sidelines due to these ridiculous superficial aspects of who they are and what. What's all the music that's going to be performed at the festival all GonNa be hers? You can have some of her some similar things to that. Just forgive me. I'm in a little bit about the choice of wording instant gotta think real careful. Especially if you're a person if at I think Why guys particularly at the watch out for Were conscious of the fact that the was kind of built around at being kind of convenient for me and so I say that because I'd moment ago I said something to affect ridiculous superficial qualities win. I don't think anybody would look at their identity. Is being ridiculous official when I need to say is The way that the white establishment would discriminate against people on the basis of these these qualities. Netflix to avoid forest. What I was going. I'm sorry what was your question again. A Pacific's festival sure. Yeah we're we're still in the early planning basis so we really just came out publicly back in March in part of that was because we needed to raise the funds to finish eating are idle Wednesday three thousand so that we could raise tax deductible donations which we've now achieved. I'm glad to say In fact we just WANNA a grant I grant this week. So we're very excited about that. They'll be more news about BACK COMING OUT PRETTY SOON. but in terms of the the the programming Right now we're envisioning a four day festival that will be kind of have a spotlight. Bene- some kind regional other than anchor event probably have performance by more focused on performance at the moment and then a built around. That will be a suite of other activities including panels and presentations. And there's a film that we in the short film on Orange Price that I'd recommend people check out spring that we're looking at a range of different activities. All centered around not again. Just not just yourself although that's important in a big piece of it but also kind of Also contemporary the mentioned Margaret Bonds also hurt He. Burley is a very important person in music. History and had a relationship with the origin and was actually a fantastic array of it hasn't singer primarily singer but he's also a great arranger of a lot of great African American spirituals are one of my favorites is he is a great version of a deep river cruise that I highly recommend it was a Boho version a vocal solo version with piano. And there's also not cappella choral version as well that both of which are quite good. So so there's that suite of composers kind of around Florence and then if you go even further out than you see Actually she grew up in the same town as William Grant Still. And so there's that connection going away back to their childhood actually And then zooming out even further and and looking at like I said the legacy that she leaves behind. How can we in the present day lift up composers and makes getting their music heard at just same as anyone else so I just had a thought? Maybe commission or orchestrated arrangements with some of the songs would be way to do that absolutely. Yeah I mean that's what we've been talking about is how we saw it. You know for instance. We thought about getting awards as well. kind of a price metal. So you might see something like that. Come out in the areas of scholarship or the areas of performance or even activism and Advocacy. But also a ham out composers who they may not necessarily themselves be focused on price. But they may be coming from Some Rube and lifting up that the work that composer is doing in a temporary sends them kind of attempting to make some correction on what seemed to be a little bit of an injustice when it comes to The amount of effort in prices music while she was alive. Sounds like you've got like we talked about in the last episode. A lot of cubicle work right on a lot of key will work. Yeah I will say this though it having Talk about three different nonprofits in in this is the third that I've been involved with starting and I will say now. I think I have it down to a machine while I was so nervous when we did the first time. We were so worried about legally what we do the right thing in the bylaws at the say biting our nails like we crossed the out of the way to have money to hire a lawyer. Really look at it and we we did. What was that for it? And it took us like two and a half years together. I will onc- free status. Of course that was back before there is now. It's all at ten twenty three easy. The Different Form Watson But online form. So you can go and really. You can get a nonprofit off the ground in a couple of hours of work on pay DOT GOV and have it up and running whereas back then I think. We spent a year putting together the traditional ten twenty three packet of information you have presented the irs to get your free status and so that was three years took us about a year and a half was the number one to get it all done and took us. Maybe three months price fast to get the whole thing done so intriguing. The time down in down in down now so I think I might start being Nonprofit founding consultants or something your way to make some money off this guy. I think it's interesting that you have to. I mean. Of course you have to be planning something price fast this far out but getting it not just planned but established so that you can't start collecting the It's a huge timescale for for organizing. Something like this yeah. It can't be you know it's a little chicken and the egg too because it you announce then you can't raise any money in a new need the money to finish developing your plans and it is. Kinda it's kind of all tied up in another somewhat point. You just have to get a website. Didn't get something up. They're ready to ready to go. And then just say okay we exist. We have nothing yet plan but we we exist and we're GonNa do something in the day that we're planning on and will you help us join us in this in this journey and So yeah that's really the thing. Is You at some point? You just accept that it will not be finished. You'll be the first thing that you put out in public will be a rough draft of some kind whether you like it or not. You know you're GONNA your plans will change in have you. Have you had a lot of interest in the festival? So far absolutely absolutely. That's the one thing I will Really Trumpet is the degree to which people have immediately come out and support what we're doing and and made a vocal show of it and people have donated with their dollars already. You know we've we've done haven't done much more than establish you know. It was on the board and establish our core mission and a given date and people said. Yeah that's something I wanNA give to win. So we've got all these unsolicited donations. Huge amounts yet. But the but the fact someone giving you ten dollars sight unseen says something about you know the the mission is already pretty compelling so if you combine that with a strategic plan which is what we're need even working on that that shows what you're GonNa do specifically an program that that that lives out your values while then you and you're really set to to hopefully get the resources that you need to do the work with you. You're hoping to and I will say a marked departure because with with In the case of someone's radically different concepts of doing it with composer that no one has heard up. Necessarily if by definition if they're an emerging composer than they haven't yet established themselves internationally. I shouldn't say no one. But their their audiences still relatively small and our goal is to help expand that audience so definition. It's going to be difficult to get people on board at at the ground floor. You have to Kinda Kinda work your way up a little bit more so has been. I think a little bit enjoyable to figure out. You know something that's going to do a lot of good. I think musically and socially in our community and SORTA hopefully globally when it comes to F- promoting price and other composers in that in that vein as we've discussed but also to see that that has an instant level of residents. That's I think very gratifying. Large chorus of people behind it and focusing just like we talked about earlier focusing on just a couple of composers instead of eight and symphony number one. Does each concert now. Price vest is doing that with with one Festival is yeah. That's an interesting parallel. I hadn't I hadn't really conceived to that. Yeah well I I guess it does track I think to me one of the things that I see so happens. Sometimes you gotTa Watch out for is mission creep and trying to bite off something bigger than you can really chew on if you were any project you WanNa have some focus in saying no the most liberating thing you can ever say saying. No we're not GONNA do. Abc D. E. All five projects. We're going to do just the first to do a good job of them. Maybe in the future we can build up in had capacity to five things really well but you know if I had my choice I really do. Two or even just one thing as well as possible in and You know a built in Pasadena as you have the ability to and You know normally I think we we look at look at some hidden gems But I think you've you've shared a whole bunch already said the recording of the first and third symphony just came out. I saw that you showed that on facebook just a couple just a couple of days ago as excited to see that happening right before we talked But any other pieces you WanNa you WANNA highlights. Yeah actually you know what I do is I. Love the hidden gem segment a wondering if you buy chat a little bit about Kind of the process of getting those hidden gems because in my view that I think is the challenge with programming with equity in mind which I think is kind of Sunday. We talked around but not talk directly so far. And that's what I really WanNa see more colleagues really deeply invested in. I think I think definitely were experiencing a cultural moment noticing more and more groups. I just look at somebody who's starting a group back in Texas with the day and I was looking at their programming and I was very pleased to see that it wasn't just see a white base is the whole time. I won't get any more specific than the moment just just I don't want to l leave it anonymous A. That's the kind of thing you want to see. I still think we have a very long way to go if any if Looking at the composer diversity database looking at their statistics on orchestras including those numbers is any indicator is a very long way to go toward seeing when I would consider closer to a proper level representation across whether it'd be women are was color or other Shortly marginalized groups. They've got a long way to go. And I think are some structural problems that are not the fault of conductors It's our responsibility as conductors to navigate our way around I was just thinking about the Daniels which impacting it up cinema sitting behind me right now right here you know. Is this the greatest book ever I? I had the fourth edition. Addition is different but it better but aren't a lot of it's a it's a C- a white vases see. Why guys does the top to bottom. Now it's nothing against David. He's done a tremendous service to this industry to this profession. More than anybody. I can think of In the first edition of course was purely descriptive. There was nobody had a previous edition. purely descriptive scholarly work of. Here's the thing that people are programming. And I've I've provided you with all the key information that you need to go out and program that same piece instrumentation here. The indexes are all the tools that you need to go out and get that piece on your orchestra program but as this problem because the second. The first edition comes out. Then you have cursive quality right because now people are reading it and then what are they doing? They're going okay. I have to program a concert and I know the size of the orchestra honey minutes music. I need how good they are in all my players. Okay what am I going to do? You're going to go open the Daniels right and go looking for pieces that match your needs and if on the menu you see seventeen piece by white guys in there are some I mean. There's there's there's one piece by forms price in my for addition now for over ten years. So a Lotta pieces of hers. Come out in the last ten years to get his fault. But if I'm using that book I need to ask myself some hard questions about have actually given other great compositions opportunity if I'm they weren't available when this was published right so west have semi willing to take as a conductor and that's what I'm hoping folks will begin to ask themselves more. Austin is what steps is a conductor. My willing to take to go beyond our great resources like Daniels to learn other pieces. I think I think that's the number one thing. Is You have to turn on your curiosity and turn it up and go look up pieces that you haven't heard before I go. Listen in and you can go to genres. That aren't even classical. Which keeps your curiosity moving. You're always learning about new works. You haven't heard before and so in cases like Julius Eastman composer besides price who Shurmur recently picked up. I mean I'm pretty sure I didn't know the name Julius Eastern into the last two years and so that's on me in one part is on my teachers maybe in some level but there's a lot of factors why only now coming online knowing Eastman's music but that means now I've responsibility maybe it's not all my fault in the past but it is matters possibility in the present go listen to as many pieces as possible in figure out of any of them would work for one of my programs and so. I'm really recommend an upgrade to the tune of three or four hundred percent more time spent in programming thin conductors typically do which already spent a Lotta time. Doing we love that good programming session because the world's your oyster just ideas just flow in every which way you might try this. You just brainstorming. Nobody is harmed by brainstorming. Some work that's too hard for your orchestra is that I put it on the table. You take off eventually but you put it on their birth at all fun. Okay but I think more efforts gotta go into knowing what works or even out there that go beyond that we have. And that's that's that's that's Joys Eastman that's price. That's William Grant. Still there's lots of living composers damaged James Lee before Jesse Montgomery in Omar Thomas in Washington. I mean there's a very long list of composers that Tons of great music because as one of the complaints that people say as well right is it's got to be the best music. Well Guess What? There's hundreds of pieces that qualify as the best music written by composers from marginalized groups. Just like we've talked about this whole time and we just gotTa go out in know about them and learn about kids. I kind of I don't know I think it's an interesting question. So Jeremy will remember when we both initially got conducting We studied with Christopher celts at Msu. One of the first things he did our first semester of taking with him was he gave us a list. A big list of every major work that You know a young conductor needs to be familiar with and study and this list was a very large and it would take years and years to even begin to dispatch service of Really studying understanding all this music and thinking about you know why you were talking. I was like well. You know what that that entire list. I don't think had a single female composer on it. Let alone somebody of you now. Nationality White you know and so my question to you would be You're going into academia if you started teaching a conductor. What would your advice be to them? As far as like where to start usually like. Would you still have them start with the staple Standard orchestral literature. Everyone should want to quote. No or would you suggest to them. To explore more Maybe modern or less familiar music. That's a fantastic question. And it's a little or a lot of people it is but I I think we have to. I don't think it's that doesn't mean you have to throw away Beethoven again. He's not going anywhere. I mean look Beethoven If you look at the pie chart every single major orchestra combined all the women composers performed in the two thousand seventeen to eighteen season. Every single piece combined total. Beethoven blows out a wet alone performances. Beethoven just completely blows away the number of I think by more than double more than double performances. Beethoven every single woman composer combined right so I don't think it's any danger at all. A Beethoven goes away. But you know we need to do. I'm going to pick up. My Mr Myers is dear to my heart is like if any person I can think of that. One of the greatest musicians I've ever had the pleasure of knowing but we need to do six or seven Beethoven symphonies in the course of two years cover them or would five or six Ben Okay and we could have spent a week looking at something. Like let's say says one one example you know. Could there have been a space for that? Because he got all kinds of things. I mean we covered servants. You've become a rebel on. We got twenty century a century. So it's not that he was opposed to doing contemporary music. For instance. Okay. But but do we need to do that? Many to really get the point driven across or could we have had some personal responsibility. Who Make sure that we're familiar with all the Beethoven symphonies on our own studied in class. Maybe a few other words because in that cycle just keeps keeps repeating repeating repeating. If if that's all we're trained on that's all that's all you know. Then you're just GONNA continue to go out there and you're going to be an amateur with regard to every composer that you've never studied before and you're just going to be learning on it. You know when you when you go to work with an orchestra on a composer you've never conducted before you're sort of learning on them you know. That's a responsibility to take it seriously. You know even marinated with just doing she did at Toronto Symphony with the Baltimore Symphony. Just this past spring was her first time to do it so she you know. I was watching her own struggle with on her level. That's such a very difficult piece With with a terrific orchestra but she was. She was learning on them. And and so so. The question is you know. Do you wanna be totally learning on every composer. That's not not a guy with a a B last name. No let it be in their last name. Is that how you WanNa do it or do you? WanNa have a little more at Brett's what you're doing. Yeah that's a difficult question. I certainly if I get a position this job that I have is. I haven't Liberal Arts University. So it's an undergraduate only institution so I won't have a graduate nothing. Ta or or somebody to to be teaching in that way. I'll be teaching the conducting class. But it'll be undergraduate conducting class So so at that level. Certainly looking at excerpts thinking about how what kind of equity I can provide even the repertoire level. There certainly will be something to be. It'll be looking at But when you get into the graduate level how are you going to make sure that you know you you do need to be have some core competencies to do with the Antidote Castle Repertoire that standard by the fact that that's the stuff that you're going to be asked to do on an audition stuff that you're going to be asked to do? Add I mean my Hannah was asked to do while. They were working on chester coach. Five so I was asked to go five and fortunately for me. I was very busy spring but I had studied Jessica which five in Grad School twice so I if made it possible for me to on short notice I mean I think I had maybe nine or ten days between the invite and the day of the audition that in that amount of time I come in and have a competent rehearsal not only works if there is some kind of consistency to of what kind of repertoire might be active. It's just the entire universe but I would at around Zabel inviting s where the price has the whole concept we need to be inviting works into the upper echelon of So called Canon thinking about what other great works by composers that are women and others coming from other underrepresented groups historically at we can hold up as excellent masterpieces in. That's that's where my focus on prices come because I I think about her but tobacco. I thought look I might pick up on on other little idea. You brought up a moment ago that you had a very long list at Was given to you and on that piece I might say. This is A trays to the heavens. For the work's being done by the composer diversity the two with Rob Damer and all those guys. Doing excellent work We're so lucky to. They're doing what they're doing. I think one of the next steps and I think I think they'll probably be engaged in this activity in the future because they've got lots of cool projects coming down the pipes but one of the things that I would love to see and doesn't even need to be them. I mean the whole thing is that they provided as data that others can use and so whether it be folks in house there at the composer diversity institute whether it be you and I or others that blog about it. We're talking about it on podcast or whatever to have more curated lists seven works seven concertos here. Seven Kano Concertos by proposes of color. Okay and so that also in one hit you you know you. You've narrow it down to one category in and it's a manageable bit and it's about the whole universe repertoire. So you haven't fixed all your problems but the next time you come around in time to piano concerto you Beethoven Brahms or Schumann. That you know. There's all the standard the usual suspects right while. Now you have seven new works that you sillier is just a little bit with and now that it's time to program concerto while now you're going to go do a deep dive on those seventy pieces and really really go into you. Know and the flip side. Is You know you could just be the other way round. You could be your. You already found out that you need to do at piano concerto you go be willing. And now they're the blonde plays out there that says here's seven piano concertos that you should know and you can go and explore them apple now but in either case you know having curated lists specific and narrow down to specific use cases. Because that's what we have to think about as as a conductor is the process by which we get our programs put together that involves what music were already familiar with and what resources we know to go to find other work that we aren't already for some curious which Florence price piece is in your Daniels Because I have in my volume five. The website has three pieces on. It is a guy that gets back in good graces on fourth rates. Just the Cambridge okay. So my fifth edition breaks and the Third Symphony. The website has those two plus the first infantry. So it's it's growing slow issue and then Jordan Billboard question if you could send a message out to everybody all musicians conductors wherever you like what would you would you put on that billboard billboard so? I have to be short the it it could be. It could be longer could be an image could be a hit on the billboard importing dragged by billboard. Then right sure if you if you want to put that if you WANNA play the game I can strike if it ends up being longer. That's fine the billboard has a Qr Code that you'd want to include other musicians like secret just for connectors sure -sition we can have. You can have keyboards okay. So I'm over thinking this point. That was my one my one billboard for conductors persevere That's what I put okay. Black background maybe. Charcoal and white lettering Richard Gere. I think that it's a super hard. Profession end it is easy to lose sight of that at some point. When you first start out I think when you're in Grad school I mean I'll never forget. The first rehearsal has TA. You Know My master's program that was a big day. I felt like that ever since then he just started to grow into it in the ADS. You grow into it. You might forget how hard it is and how competitive it is just because there's not enough job there's too many people that want to do it and not enough jobs to go around so what ends up happening is just dozens and hundreds of Ray conductors. Really people are sitting on the sidelines. Trying to figure out how they're going to get in there get to do what they had set out to do. It's easy to forget that when the failures come. You know. I had a period I'm glad we're talking about this because this this this is good. I had a of twelve months from May two thousand fourteen until May of two thousand fifteen in that period of time. I didn't conduct a soul not soul. I had nothing from it was coming off of my best year ever which was my second year my doctorate you know. I was Ta Opera Department and I was conducting class every week. I have my recital and just all kinds of things happening rate and then just cold Turkey. I mean that was the darkest twelve months of my life was Oracle at. Nothing could have been worse but part of the reason it was worse because it had been so good the year before and I was just as good a musician as I was here before I just was lacking the work. So what you don't want to do is get caught up in a looped where you self sabotage or even unconscious and you're trying to sabotage but you are sub sabotaging or you mean to or not when you allow the lack of work to somehow reflect on how well you see yourself as a musician forget about as a person although the things those are important but just really getting clinical just about like am. I still musician while I'm everything. I was a year ago when I was conducting every single day and plus at eight more months that and that's how good I am now. I've gotten better since I'm actually better than I was at but I don't have any work right now though. It took me a little while to get the work. Oh and now I've got plenty of work okay but it took a long time to get from zero worked having old plate again and I'm I'm grateful for it but I don't think I'm anything special I think there's a lot of duckers out there that are just as good and if you can persevere it's it's sad to say but I I heard someone recently. It's kind of like a lottery a little bit a little bit like a lottery. And you just gotTa keep pulling a ticket and pulled another ticket until eventually your number gets called. Really I think so. Purser STAYING THERE. Keep working at it. That's what you're bound and determined to do. Don't let anything stop you. You Bet I really appreciate that. It's kind of where I am now after graduating. I'm getting to connect with very rarely a really you know I need to. I need to go out and make that happen. But it's also yeah. It's kind of a dark spot but yet again that really resonated with me so thank you you know I. I told my parents my at the end of my towards the end of my master's program so many years earlier than this I said to see you know there's GonNa be some army waters up. It's going to be a little dark going up head now when I said that I thought I was just bill smart in kind of worldly and understanding the profession but I don't think I was thinking I was thinking like a year I wasn't thinking seven or eight years. I'd still be kind of trying to get my get on the thing. So yeah that's like there's an attrition game to stay in it long enough to keep working out. You know things will things will happen. You're you're the second guessed that we've had that Has Given that piece of advice that the success for most doesn't come immediately. It comes after waiting and waiting and waiting and that you find success by just waiting for your turn to come up. Yeah I mean I wish there was a clear path. It's so hard you want to go be a doctor. Then it's simple. You go get Undergrad. You Go to med school but about a boom to a residency doctor. In someone's going to hire you and there's a great ama does a great job of constraining the flow of new doctors own. There's always a little bit more demand than there is obliged so you're always set to walk right into a fulltime job and you know kind of kind of get your life together right out of the gate you know in doctors. We just don't have anything like that so it can be really rocky but you can hold on light at the end of the tunnel. Yeah well Jordan. Thanks so much for for joining us. Thanks for all the all the advice. That's awesome track. I think both of you. I am so grateful The beginning but I. I'm a huge fan of the show and I'm so grateful that use Gotten in there and and done this because it's necessary. I mean. I think I emailed you this saying. I wish like anything I had volume on when I was a Grad student. I mean there are so many things that from my personality. I can be a little introverted. Sometimes I don't know if that comes through online or not but I can be in certain kinds of situations get very socially insecure and unsure of what to do which hurt me in places where I could've been acting asking conductors for advice. I I was too nervous to go up after rehearsal. And you're not sure is a good time. He's the conductor after rehearsal ride. So I don't want to bug them into a cold call rights minute right and so there were opportunities that Ali could have got more advice and I didn't and I wish anything that was time because then I could've skipped that whole process just podcast instead Yeah it's always. I'm always terrified to go talk to them after. And this and it gives me a reason to be like. Hey let's talk in this context for other people so I mean that's that's for the start of. Yeah Kudos to you both Thank you thank you for joining us. Thank you for joining us for this episode of podium time you can find this and all of our others at podium time pod that wordpress dot com please connect with us on facebook twitter and instagram and consider supporting the podcast for as little as one dollar a month on. Patriot dot com slash. Podium time pod Mandelson's Italian was performed by Stephanos and Beethoven's overture was performed by the Czech Symphony Orchestra.

Beethoven Brahms florence facebook Florence Price Arnold Shurmur Fort Smith Symphony Third Symphony Daniels Margaret Bonds Chicago University of Arkansas Jeremy De Cuevas Jordan Randall Smith Washington New York Times William Grant US American Orchestra Tillis
Let It Roll: The Subversive Side of Classical Music

Rock N Roll Archaeology

59:14 min | 1 year ago

Let It Roll: The Subversive Side of Classical Music

"Welcome to let it. Roll the PODCAST. About how and why popular music happens hosted by Nate Wilcox? Follow the literal podcast on twitter. At let it roll. Cast and check out our website at let it roll. Podcasts DOT COM. Let it roll is a Pantheon. Podcast and you can listen to all the other. Great Pantheon podcasts at. Www DOT PANTHEON PODCASTS DOT com today? Nate welcomes back Ted. Gioia to continue their discussion of his book music. A subversive history maiden Ted talk about the less than perfect realities of the lives of the great composers from the murderous makers of Madrigal's to the sometimes sorted antics of Johann Sebastian Bach to the very problematic. Richard Wagner Ted brings a very different perspective to the men we see as paragon of the establishment pop in those ear buds and enjoy some. Let it roll. Let me host Nate Wilcox. They will have the pleasure of welcoming back Ted Gioia to discuss again his book a subversive history of music. Today we're going to talk about a section of the book focusing on what we probably call classical music European concert tradition and starting off with chapters like musicians behaving badly so it's kind of a different take on classical music ted. Welcome back to the show right. Thanks for having me back. It's a pleasure and I wanted to do this because you know we talked about the book before and and it's it's a paradigm shifting book for me. It's one that really expanded my mind and and clarify things that have been wrestling with and you put it into words brilliantly and it it helped me focus on the whole scope of the show but the section in particular was one. I skipped over last time because I considered outside the breadth of the show which has covered things like the history of rock and roll music and Pop Music in the twentieth century. And I realized reading this book and do more research that the history of popular music as a business really goes back to the renaissance while absolutely on a lot of the behavior patterns of the musicians as well date back to that people often ask me what I learned researching this book and it was many years of research. But one of the quickest summaries. I have is. I found out that the music of might time and the music I grew up with which was jazz. Blues and rock and roll really the musicians back in the glory. Years of classical music weren't all that different and we have a tendency to sanitized that whole record to treat these people with great esteem. But they were just disruptive in many ways more disruptive than later rock musicians so. There's a lot of things that we take for granted in the current day that in fact for justice vibrate noticeable two hundred years ago. Yeah and you talk about this phenomenon that repeats throughout the history of music in the book which is a transition from disruption to respectability from outsiders to insiders and so often musical. Innovations are driven by people on the outside of the system but then there as they succeed as they impact the popular consciousness. They're pulled in to the inside. Sometimes they themselves become insiders other times. They're co opted. You know postmortem talk about that phenomenon. Logan that's right and we're very familiar with this in our own lifetime. We've all seen it when I was growing up The the Beatles and the Rolling Stones Bob Dylan. These dangerous. Figures feared by the establishment. But nowadays Bob Dylan is Nobel. Laureate Mick Jagger Sir Mick Jagger Paul McCartney Sir Paul McCartney and even the most extreme examples I mean take hip hop. Nwea the FBI tried to shut down the record label when they came on board nowadays. That same record has been enshrined in the National Archive of historic recordings of Congress. You have the Smithsonian out there putting together an official Smithsonian Guide to hip hop with fifty hip hop professors. Very idea about professor would have seen the contradiction in terms but they got fifty of them putting together this Canon of hip hop song. So we know about this from our own life and we've seen how these styles has been a good sized what we don't realize the same thing happened hundreds of years ago. The classic example is Bach. You Know Balk is considered now the poster child for respectability classical music is great composer. Who composed for God and country devout booth and run it Cetera et CETERA. You go back and do his own times and you find. That balk grew up with juvenile delinquents. Went to a school famous for gang. Culture was mentored by one of the worst gang members all his early jobs. Disciplinary problems At a young age to spend a month in jail He was called to task for cavorting with a young lady in the organ. Loft had prodigious beer-drinking every possible violation of rules and discipline he exemplified. None of that is is remembered nowadays. He's just the Lutheran composer so this recurring. We could talk about other composers. But there's one point I do WanNa make though I raise these issues in my book. Not because I'm trying to be gossipy or salaciously and it makes for great reading to read all these sexy anecdotes. I have the point. I'm trying to make though is these. Figures could not have created disruptive music they invented if they hadn't been disruptive in their own lifetimes you know almost all the commentary on Bach. We have from back then people complaining about him. You know people complaining about how show he was. He was called the task before the city council had to submit a written document explaining why he was using such new progressive and strange musical techniques. So this thing is conducted disruption in their private life and the disruption. Their music is connected. And that's why well upon it because if you don't understand that you will never understand the evolution of music and going back a little further. You talk about a couple of composers from the Italian renaissance. Who went way beyond Bach in terms of violations of social norms? I'm Talkin about two particular Rotella Mayo Trump Esino and Carlo Jesualdo and bothered these guys. Were involved in love. Triangles that resulted in murders committed by them. Oh this is right. It's interesting if you start with the music of these two individuals trauma Chino and swallow. Its gentle music and they will have songs. These pretty gentle love songs. Mandra goes in front of us but in their private life they were violent angry people and both of them not only did they commit murders but it was obvious to everybody that they were guilty and they were never punished and this is interesting because it shows you that. Starting around the renaissance it became the norm or musicians to go outside the norm. They were allowed indiscretions that other people were not and in fact. I'm convinced in both those instances their fame and reputation was increased by committing murder. I think people felt well. If this guy is such a passionate lover that he he he. He kills somebody in a fit of jealous rage. Who you know. There must be a similar intensity of passion in the song and we laugh at that. But that's the same way. People look at rock bands and the sex pistols. And we've seen this in our lifetime. If the musician out of control we suspect there must be a certain intensity in the music as well so it all came back to that time I mean just one more example I find this fascinating people that want to understand what it was like to be an artist during the Renaissance. The most famous book. They read the autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini. He was a renaissance artist famous as a silversmith sculptor but he was also a musician played the flute and he wrote his life story. And it makes fascinating reading but I went through that book page by page and I just marked off every time. Shalini committed a violent crime and and I think I came up potentially with at least fourteen. Violent crimes committed in his life. And this is not including the the the just the vandalism or the varsity these are actually violent crimes where he murdered somebody or beat them up and none of them was punished for he was. He was actually put in jail couple times. It was only because of arguments with his patrons over payment and artworks and my favorite anecdote from the whole book comes from a conversation when someone would approach the Pope instead of the jubilee. WanNa hire this Guy Shalini. You know he's committed murder and all this and the pope said you don't understand for people like Ben to Chile. Different rules apply that came directly from the mouth of the Pope and the renaissance. And this was a new idea and I would say we still live with this idea to even though even in the midst of the metoo movement and all the scandals. They're still this expectation that great musicians with by their own rules and they violate rules and and For good or bad that's part of the whole Agassi Western music. And what was the change around that? Time that empowered musicians to become above the law. Well the real changes for the first time we have an audience. Now people just take for granted now back when I say. The audience was invented around the time of the Renaissance and Medieval period. People look at me. As though I'm crazy you know Ted. They're always was an audience And factor in many times places. There's no there is no audience where the music making is so embedded into the community and the rituals that say some people are audience and some people performance is misguided but even when there was a good at the ancient Rome that what these great spectacles to pantomine where these public performances and obviously there was an audience there but no one took them seriously. If you were one of the leaders from you look down upon those people in the US. The rabble they were not the source of the static judgment. You laughed at them. You mocked them. All of a sudden. The renaissance idea emerged that the audience actually validates. The quality of the song started with the troubadours. But by the time you get to the renaissance. There's this idea that if the audience doesn't like it it's not good music and we take that for granted now but before that. That wasn't the case. Your audience didn't validate the music. The music was country it was for God. It was for the nobility the idea that the audience could decide so this whole idea of audience driven aesthetics is what keeps power and influence and inability of. Break the rules for the musicians. There's a great example once again from Chile's autobiography where he was working on this sculptor for a member of the MEDICI family. And there's a dispute over the quality of the statute and the member of the MEDICI family nobility sort of Hind. Jim Public to try to listen to what people were saying about the Chilean. He's work and just understanding what the average person thinks about it. So this is a great turning point where the nobility actually consults the average person to figure out what's good or bad and we live with that now today. There's this inherent assumption again. The audience drives everything almost to an extremist. John I'm I'm always dismayed at the Grammy Awards you know. The Grammy Awards seemed too much driven by honoring albums that sell hot compared to the Oscars. You Know Oscar just went to parasite and if you look at the last five ten years. It's it's never the case that an Oscar goes to a blockbuster film the Oscar voters. Have this idea that they're even suspicious. If some movie makes a billion dollars you know new spiderman movies makes a billion dollars. We'll never get nominated for best picture. But in the music world the award winner she often frequently coincide with the big moneymaker. So I think that's once against the legacy of this whole audience driven aesthetics permeates music and. Let's hear a little snippet of some of this early popular music. This is from Jakko Patty ladder. Lie Your Dj. This is from scene to Messenger Sane and this is from sixteen hundred possibly the first opera or at least the first opera. We have record up. Let's hear it. Yeah Quo Perry now Zaka Peres. Lie Your say the first opera and that was performed by the School of Music at the University of Illinois Around Champagne. So what happened with opera? How does offer become really the first popular concert attraction in Western House as well once again? We're going to recalibrate our notions because if you grow up in our era operas oils and fuddy-duddy in traditional and respectable we've been trained to view it that way and the opera companies. Want us if you want. They want to have The wealthy people in the community donate to the operas respectable Cultural Organization. But that's not the origin of opera. You know opera was scandalous and just having women on stage saying this was this was transgressive. You know through most of the early history only to vocations allowed women say go back a thousand years in with a professor if you were a prostitute or if you were non that was idea was if you were a prostitute. It was dangerous because you were saying sex if it was okay for her to saying because she was locked away in a conflict but any other woman who sang was considered suspect and you had the ancient Greek myth about the sirens just by listening to a woman. Sing a man could lose his soul and this is a whole we could talk our just on this as remarkable as it will seem to people in our day until very recently if you were working in the sex trade you expect to be able to say. Nowadays we have so separated out those two professions but we just assume this was. This was part of the sex trade in virtually every part of the world to you know from the. Geishas wherever you go. You'd see this but in Western culture until opera women weren't we're not supposed to sing in public and then there was a tremendous thing that the duke of Ferrara did in the late fifteen hundreds. He got together a group of women sort of women just to say and so people that were entertained by the Duke of Ferrara would go to his his castle or Palace or whatever and these women would come out and see people were scandalized back. There was an assumption. These women must really be prostitutes. They can't you know the the the the idea that they were just were. Just out there. Singing was medically scandals and then a few years later the first operas came out because everybody wanted to see this. Everybody wanted to see this. So most people think there's a huge gap between opera. And let's say Cardi B. Nikki barrage or Madonna or whatever. There isn't that big gap. It was very centralized it was centralized The early operas always just like the one you played are always built on love stories and even if there was no started in that one I would always go back into the holiday and they would find some methodological story or epic story of Odysseus or the Aeneid but they would always focus on the loving so even if the love story in the AENEID is only a small part of the story when it would be turned into the opera. That would be the major part of it. So this is we need to recalibrate our notion of opera. It really was it was scandalous. It was revolutionary was radical and people went there not just to hear the music but for this. Arado sized performance that they weren't going to see anywhere else and it was the singers who are the real stars and made even more money than they composers. Far More far more you know. It was not uncommon early operas for the woman singer the diva to make five or ten times as much as the composer even the successful composer who created hit operas Had to be behind the stage all the money and Glamour and honors went to the woman who was seeing the Opera. Even a famous composer. Like handel would never make as much money as the singer now once again. This seems ridiculous to us these composers now our esteemed or famous. How could they? The names of the singers are forgotten. How could the singer make more than the composer but once again? This is no different than the current time. I mean. If you go pick an artist like Madonna if she sings a song on an album do we check the name of the Song Writer? Do we go you know. Do we really honor the songwriter? As much as we do the singer well nowadays. The royalties are such that. The the the composer will make a lot of money off those songs in some instances more than the singer but even today the the the the the sexualize energy focused on female singers is the focal point of money making in the music business. But some of these composers had a trump card to play and people I jumped. T- slowly became almost czars of musical production and were given patents and monopolies. Some of them organized guilds was that a boon for musicians was this a period of of freedom and collaboration and diversity or did these musicians abused their power. Well we have this naive notion in the current day. I'm probably as bad as anyone else You know we all complain about the music business and the record labels and the streaming platforms and how music musicians are exploited. But the history is very clear on when musicians themselves have been given the power. They've been just as abusive as as the corporations. Maybe even worse and you just mentioned John Fifties Louis. He was literally given a patent in France overall opera productions so anyone who wanted to produce from the king if you wanted to produce an opera you had to pay him money and he died one of the wealthiest people in France we even government ministers. Who didn't have the kind of fortune? He amassed from abusing his power over music. Probably the most striking examples in England where you have a two composers Thomas Talents and William Byrd who were very popular with Queen Elizabeth and she gave them a twenty one year patent on all music in England. I think about patent over music. We're not talking about a compromise on his song. They had a patent overall music. Performed in England for twenty one years and the patent was so extensive even covered using paper just a music notation paper. They had a patent on literally before even a single note was was composed burn towns. Got There and so. This is a great case. Study what does it? What does it mean when a musician has that much power and you know these are two of my favorite composers but I have to say the abused this privilege they had and for those twenty one years? They were authoritarians in what they had to be published or not published and it's very revealing a patent expired fifteen ninety six and in fifteen ninety seven it was like a golden age for for music in England all this music was published more music was published in and then either preceding year so it was really the expiration of the patent that a lot of horsing music which gives you some measure how abusive it was And then fifty nine hundred. I think Thomas More. We got a patent renewed and and we went back to this period of of musicians abusing their power and this is all over. Europe. You see this advantage you see this. The Holy Roman Empire were musicians will get these grants from the king or Queen or the emperor and use them. As restraint on trade individuals had power wasn't just one individuals were given power also when when musicians or organize collectively that they would abuse their power. You tell the story the Meister Gill and what they did to music or yes the meister singers in Germany. It's like a musicians guilt and it was deadening what they eventually did it in culture and they have these competitions and everything had to be done according to the rule book which specified everything. From what. How many syllables and the line. Or what Biblical topics you can sing about. And it's like The Mirror Image of American idol where? You were awarded for not violating rules. We're making mistakes and not creative expression and they literally it was so detonating that the people stop paying attention and there are many records of the Meistersinger. Planning the people were not giving them the steam. Do Great Music. But it shows you that. Are you hoping idea we have in our heads? If musicians just had more power everything would be great. Well that's not true. We always seen this in in our on our own Modern Times you know take for example ass cap which was sociation of of of songwriters composers. This was a group of musicians got together to protect their own interests abuses to enjoy roll. Morton. The Great Jazz composer complain bitterly. They would never let him in to ask. How and so these musicians in power. They used their power. Exercise Restraint of trade and this is not sad but recurring story throughout history music and we talked about the emergence of the audience and emergence of of marketplace is an arbiter of music in a in a source of income for munitions. But you know there's the same at the futures unequally distributed that that the future is happening in one place and and not not at another at the same time so even a couple of centuries later you have someone like Bach that we've discussed a little bit. But he goes through a transition of being sponsored by. He's got patrons he's working for cities working for religious institutions rather than being a popular composer purchased a generation or so later his descendants and even some of his peers like Handel and Hayden. I'm are swept up into popularity frequently moving to England that seems to be a recurring trend for for German composers to find popular success in England. What was the lure across the channel? We have this tremendous shift between the year seventeen hundred and eighteen hundred and everything changed at the beginning of that period. If you were a musician you had to find a patron and the Peyton was always From the church or from the nobility and the most secure job was to be a choirmaster and if you could actually become composer for Duke or King I was even the best of all and so you had to tell the lot you were a a member of these huge powerful organizations and you had to live by their rules and then by time you get the eighteen hundred. It's all change. There's a real free market economy. You can live composing freelance. Giving lessons giving concerts. You Know Mozart had at least five. Different ways of making income moats are was not very good with his patrons factors. Most famous patron literally kicked him out the door with a kick in the ASS. I mean really kick. You literally kicked him in the box and sent him flying but Mozart could get bikes by that time. He could give subscription concerts. You could publishes works and collect money for you can do all sorts of things any the fairly comfortable you heard these stories that Mozart was impoverished. That's not the only reason most impoverished because he was a big spender was no problem with his income. So that's a fascinating transition and it's worth asking what caused that shift and and I. I think it's very interesting to look at a change. That happened around your seventeen seventy. It's really the birth of what we would call celebrity culture in fact the WORD CELEBRITY CHANGES. Its meaning around that time in the early seventeen. Hundreds the word celebrity existed. But it was an insult. If you said somebody was seventy. That was not good. They were standing out for something. Bad would drawing attention to themselves in a way that was indecorous that was was reprehensible but then around the year seventeen seventy. This works starts taking on a positive meaning and to be a celebrity. Wow every that's a celebrity now. That's great musicians were celebrities and it's fascinating to see the can actually trace this the usage of word over time and guess when the word celebrity was used more often than at any point in history. This is true in English. It's true and Franch- Was your eighteen hundred. Your eighteen hundred was the peak of the word celebrity and that changed everything. So if you look at high it's fascinating you know. He took a job with Eszterhas family. There's nobility family austria-hungary in around seventeen sixty one and so this was before that period and check it out. We have his contract so we know what was required. He had to dress like a servant. He had to eat at the servants table. When a member of yesterday family talked to him he could respond but he could not initiate the conversation. He had to meet with the master every day at noon and be told what music he was. Going to play or compose the yester- Housi- family controlled the copyrights anything can put. It was just ridiculous yet. This is one of the most desirable music jobs in Europe. Now here's the fascinating thing but time you get Thirty years later Heinsohn celebrity. He go to London. People treat him like a superstar and and he can now set his own terms he still works for the family but he dictates to them and you can just review we just correspondents or the biography. It's fascinating let's hear a little bit of hide the music that Able to make when he was escaped his patrons and and suddenly became a celebrity in London. This is from symphony number. One hundred four the London symphony now is your Yosef. Haydn's symphony number. One hundred and four. The London symphony performed by the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra. And I found it fascinating when you're talking about high. And the speculation with him and Mozart both as to whether or not groupie culture existed at this point. Well once again I could be accused of being gossipy or salacious. Why am I so focused on the musician? The sex lives and I must admit I've done a fair amount of research into this area but I think it's important because this is a this is a useful way of under understanding how musicians were perceived in their culture and and what celebrity status men back that and what kind of. And how did we view the out of the audience view? These is actions and and I would say my best sense is that the real notion of a groupie probably emerged around the same time. Celebrity culture took off. Seventeen seventy seventeen seventeen ninety now. How do we know this well? It's hard to? It's hard to gather the evidence we will you know? For example Haydn's last will and testament. He gives a lot of money to these women. He's not related to you. Can you can draw your own conclusions from this. It's SORTA suspicious. That hines given given money to all these women. And then you go into Mozart's letters and there are these code words. He seems to us that seem to represent sexual activity and even to this day. The Mozart scars can't agree on what some of these these these terms are and it did not help the the the word the French word he uses. That means kiss can also be used to mean the word screw so I mean. It's very difficult to put together the story but we do know that Mozart composed the greatest work of high culture about one night stands and hookups. It's called Don Giovanni the opera And the end of the brightest actually Casanovas. Who celebrated as as a great lover Fi as famous as being a seducer? So it's clear. Something is happening in music around this time and this is setting the stage for our own day when according to some accounts you know. Mick Jagger's had more than five thousand sex partners Gene Simmons or whatever we've come to expect that these musicians are are prolifically offers or seducers exploiters But once again that seems to date back to this period around seventeen seventy seventy eighty were for some reason. The rules started changing culture and I had to go back but I skipped a thing that I think is really important that you talked about in this discussion of the reformation and the various religious wars in Europe At the thirty years war and other things going on in the sixteenth century seventeenth century. And there's a consistent pattern of x musicians or people who had been musicians become the most reactionary and the most concerned with the power of music you talk about Olympic Vingada who was also Zurich reformer in Switzerland and literally smashing instruments and destroy things. But yet this wasn't someone who is tone deaf or hated music. This was a musician. This is a man who was admired for his versatility as a performer on multiple different instruments. What do you think it was that it was frequently musicians? Who are the most worried about music and its influence on society off? It's a fascinating question and you find this again and again in history and surprising thing is how little changes if you look at the complaints. Church leaders were making about music. You're five hundred. They're not much changed by the year. Fifteen hundred or even in the current day in there's one medieval resources and he said I was researching these medieval documents and it reminded me of my own childhood of the Church. My parents took me to what they're saying about. Music really has changed this this fear about music and and let's be honest. This is a justifiable fear. Because music is power I would be the vast tell parents or ministers authority figures. Music has no power over people's lifestyles. Literally I just read yesterday that in Egypt banning a style of of St Music kind of electric folk music because the lyrics are getting people to sexually aroused. They had to go in and and forbid this music and it's easily the easy maybe already won't be true so their music does have power and authority figures always notice. They know instinctively that they've gotta look out for the music so well the reformation came. This is a tremendous revolution in people's lives and the Protestant reformers all had to ask themselves. What do we do about this music? Martin Luther we are fortunate that Martin. Luther had some love of music. I think the reason why Germany became the great center of Classical Music. With Bach. Beethoven Brahms and all that is because Luther created a culture there that was very tolerant of music in England. We were also fortunate. There are people in England who wanted to ban all this music outright and The Queen Elizabeth she is she played the virginal. Which which is this keyboard instruments? She took great pride in her music making and she restraint those who wanted to impose tremendous censorship. On the other extreme you have Switzerland where sweeney was the reformer and they just for why they completely got rid of music. You go to church is anymore. Just sit and violence and listen to the recitations from the Bible. They actually went and destroyed. Oregon's they literally destroyed the organ in the Church and as you mentioned the irony was zoos. Langley was probably the one of the best musical minds of his day. He was a talented composer. And so the question is why would this? Talented composer lead the battle against music. But this is something that's recurred throughout history. We've seen it in the troubadour days when these would would embrace religion and denounce their former music apple are did this in the Medieval Times even in the twentieth century fascinating stories of these blues singers who became ministers and then later with the blues revival of the nineteen sixties people would track down these old Mississippi Blues Singers. So we'd like you to record some music. We'd like you to record the blues. And sometimes they were. They were told no. I won't I won't record these old sinful and I simply chalk this up to the fact that musicians themselves are more aware than anybody if the power music and they're not being ridiculous absurd the understand full while the power of the music and when they change their values the music has to change for them. And to Segue back to the timeline that we're in before I pulled you back so I wanted to get that point about the physicians veering and understanding this power music. There's a transition that happened shortly after Beethoven and into the early part of the nineteenth century and were themes that you talked through in the book. These music has these cycles where it goes through periods. Where music is more boisterous more clearly dangerous. And then it'll go into. What sort of a lull cycle like? We had an American pop in the fifties before rock and roll emerged words. Banal PLEASANT SONGS. Like on. Top of old smokey. And how much is that? Doggie in the window and things like that and the nineteenth century you had a period where suddenly this dangerous beast. Music is allowed into middle. Class homes is welcomed into middle class homes the piano becomes this status symbol and now composers like Chopin and Schubert can make a living writing to be performed by teenage girls and their homes. What was this shift there? As you rightly point on music goes through these cycles and it's fascinating to see periods in which everything gets gentle and easy and smooth and non threatening you know once again. I point back. Let's let's let's give a couple examples and early nineteen seventy. We just went to this rock revolution. And then there. Early Nineteen Seventies. You have these singer songwriters. Carole King Joni Mitchell. James Taylor Cat Stevens. I mean I could take that Cat Stevens out. My could play it for my grandma and she was. Oh how nice. And so then. You had this gentle period. But it doesn't last few years later you've got punk rock and disco new wave and this is the recurring cycle. It's whenever you get into that that time of non-threatening Gentle Consensus building music that crosses generational barriers The clock is ticking. My friend because it's not going to last is people this is. This is a key part of my book. Is I talk about the disruptions music. But the important point is people want that disruption people crave that disruption in the music. That's why these chips in authority had to shut down the street. Music or Putin is trying to control rap music in Russia or In in Hong Kong. The protesters are using. These people. Want that disruptive aspect and one of the most fascinating time periods is the one. You're mentioning. This goes back. Eighteen twenty eighteen thirties eighteen forties. It looked like music had been tamed. And it's because all of a sudden everybody starts owning musical instruments even middle class families can afford pianos and the reason they buy. The Piano is fascinating. It's almost always for the children. You don't see mom and dad taking the piano lessons. It's the kids are taking piano lessons in the back of their mind. Is this going to help the family advance? You will help my daughter get a good husband. It will help My my family become more respectable in the community and so the music is teamed. And you know I wrote this book on the history of the love song. It's the most fascinating chapter in the history of Song because the daughter is sitting at the piano. Sing a song and and and the man who is courting. Her is sitting there with the parents and listening. And I think I pro- common I make is never in. History was a love song so less intended to seduce. You know the the idea is okay. There's GonNa be a sexual consummation the song but only after the merit so it's like this fascinating and if you look at the lyrics the love song they've they're all very tame no one ever kisses or even hugs always just my dear. I feel a deep affection for you blah Blah Blah and so. This is really the eighteen thirties. This has been domesticated so literally domesticated domestic life at home and once again doesn't last and when it changes it changes in this ridiculous way. People like Verdi Wagner. Who used music as a source of nationalism upheaval patriotism and even warmongering vulgar to the Nazis? If you want you can go down that route. We could talk about that but it's an amazing thing to look at this. Where you you see these situations where music seems tamed. But it really is because you can you can never you can never really tame but then people want the disruption and. Let's hear a little bit of this music before we go onto the more stormy the storm and Drang Wagner and others. Let's hear a little bit of Franz Schubert. This is the Song Air Corning Sung by Dietrich Fischer Scou- should bear Ohio. Now's a great. She bear his song. Her conning somebody Dietrich Fischer Scou- and and you make a point in this book that's one of my pet peeves worship so many times people talk about the greatest songwriters of all time and they go back may be if we're lucky as far as Gershwin Irving Berlin. Generally it stops at say maybe Chuck Berry and yet. She bears the case to clearly be the greatest songwriter all time in terms of both quantity and quality of his output. And he's you know somebody who does symphony and concert pieces like his predecessors Beethoven and Mozart but he also does he's intimate songs for voice and Piano and speak into his time and his period and before we moved wagner. Have one theory that you didn't bring up in the book but I've been curious about and I've noticed that these periods of walls and music frequently come in the aftermath of major wars appeared. We've been talking about the eighteen twenties. Eighteen thirties. This the survivors of the time. These are the survivors of the Napoleonic. Wars are the people coming home from World War Two. They were the ones that wanted to hear. How much is that dog and the window and you could make argument with singer songwriters. It's the post or the end of the Vietnam War. Do you think there's a correlation there in terms of people having experienced so much violence installment drawing and they just want something soothing. A great point you know I wrote a book. Ten fifteen years ago called the birth and death of the cool and the starting point. That book was just to explore. What does it mean to be cool? And we couldn't have a simple concept of the book but as I began doing the research. I've learned something that surprised me. I learned that sometimes being cool I'm cool. And then if that cool was not a timeless concept but it went into fashion at a certain point and went out of fashion and other point in time and I looked at this great that date back to the Miles Davis out in the birth of the cool. It's what made around nine forty nine and it seemed like for the next forty fifty years cool is an ideal. You wanted to be cool. People wanted to be cool. They listened to musicians who were cool and what I began to see his around the year. Two thousand things started shifting and hypothesized. Check US OUT I. This is something I wrote ten fifty years ago. I said we're now entering an age instead of being cruel and laid back and relaxed is the idea. We're entering an age of confrontation anger. I wrote back in two thousand five early. Nothing in the next fifteen years forced me to change that view. I think it's safe to say we are living in a time of anger and confrontation and and this is something I've never written but the evidence is there of a larger sense of fifty year cycles. And if you go in a pie this it it works. It works in a strange way. Let's assume that the civil war was a hot cycle. I think people were confrontational back then. Too vaguely recall during the civil war. people in the US were angry each other and a very hot culture and then afterwards you had the reconstruction and then you had this amazing period of prosperity and check this out. Eight Thousand Ninety nine hundred immigrants were welcome in the United States. People seem to the United States avoided major wars For the next fifty year one to a World War. One was coincidentally is fifty years after the civil war and all of a sudden these these great global confrontations heat up again and I think people what's going after World War. Two people were exhausted because they'd gone through two world. Upheavals shouldn't be surprising that calmness restraint laid-back attitudes might be popular after you go into these two world wars. But I'm I'm now convinced although like I say this would require more research clarification. I am now Mr harder cycles and culture between hot and cool and the impact the music the impact the music so Right now I think we're we are still in the early stages of if I'm correct. I hope I'm wrong on this. We're still in in. You have another twenty years to go this hot state where people scream at each other. Whatever but that's the world we live in and to take it back a little wagner and Verdi emerged as these voices of national nationalism in music which was not something that anybody saw coming and it had this enormous impacts bus you know various becomes the songwriter of of Italy becoming a country. The unification of Italy in the various revolutions that took that and Wagner takes us much more ominous tone Minnie's explicitly antisemitic and writes the series of operas that are rousing and militant and violent and adored by Hitler and and definitely the immense negative influence on the world and yet at some of the most beautiful in popular music in Western culture. And you have this thing where you pinpoint what you think on shifts was that that artists in say box era when they were servants of the Church or cities they felt themselves. They saw themselves as serving the nation but once wagner comes along they see. They represented the nation. Talk about that distinction. Why do you think it was so dangerous? Once again I go back to. These ideas. Cycle starts run each and forty nine sort of revolutionary period in Europe. People had forgotten all the Napoleonic violence and they were ready for a new round of violence all the sudden you have these nationalism movements throughout Europe every one of them has its own composer and so verity is the spokesperson of the people that want to unify Italy. And if you're proud of being a German listen to and all of a sudden composers believe. They are emblematic of their nation. And I think this idea persisted for a long time. I mean even into the twentieth century. I'm sure Aaron Copeland was very self consciously an American composer wanted to sound American Gershwin. In fact if you look at composers everywhere you go to to Sibelius no right. It's on called Finlandia. Everybody was you. Bartok was very conscious. Carrion routes every to be a great composer in the Hundred Years Following Wagner is to align yourself with the nation where you are the spokesperson for the country. And I don't think we even now realize how strangers notion and we take for granted. We rely on composers with the first thing when people talk about. Classical composer is what country? They're from the first even before you talk about what style of music they composed in and we come to take it for granted but it's a dangerous game and I'll just point out a couple of things If you go before. Wagner things were more. Open an easy in these borders. Quite so powerful so someone like handle could come to England and be considered an English composer even though technically he's what we would call German or you have a situation I mean take this I mean this is amazing to consider before wagner the greatest German composer of the preceding generation. We've probably Felix Mendelssohn whose Jewish would after. That wouldn't be allowed idea that a Jewish composer could be the great German composer that would that would have. The Germans would have shaken in their boots at the notion but even look at what Mendelssohn composed in his most. Famous symphonies are the Italian symphony and his Scottish symphony. And he did this music. Midsummer's night dream. Which is a shakespeare. Play off Greece. I mean it's very cosmopolitan and international musicians. Or moving around heightened comes to England and celebrators a great composer there and then you fast forward and everybody is identified with my country and patriotism in my country who beat up your country. And it's it's crazy. It's a crazy situation but once again as you know from reading my book one of the recurring themes is music. Always been tribal. It's always been anthems about group bonding and so. Even the earliest hunters went under a hunting expedition. Seeing songs they killed animals and then soldiers would sing songs as they would kill other soldiers and so it's strange but it's not surprising that music would have this bizarre history which gets wrapped up into national politics. That's that's part of DNA music to have a potential and let's hear a little bit of Wagner. This is the most banal and obvious choice but I just couldn't resist. It's a it's a hit movie apocalypse now and so on. This is Richard Wagner ride to the ball corey and that was right at the Valkyrie by Richard Wagner. And you talk about this. You have a great quote. A great snippet. I wanted to quote here. We talk about the debate of Wagner is complicity in the bloody genocidal results of this overweaning sense of national identity. National destiny will probably never end. There's no formula for balancing the value of an artistic work against human suffering that equation simply doesn't exist and never will that a little bit and and how we balanced that now come. We never really can come to a satisfactory answer on this. Well we deal without even now family. It wasn't now days more than we have in recent memory. We face this situation where there are artists who are successful at what they do better superstars but their private life seems wrongheaded reprehensible or even the criminal at some points so I'm classic example is Michael Jackson and the question is how do you balance out the quality of the artistic product from the private behavior of the artist. So I'm this is the Michael Jackson issue. It's the Woody Allen issue it's the Roman Polanski issue I could give twenty more examples. They'll probably be another one in the news tomorrow. Do Artists that we've found has done something. I just just plain wrong. Then the question is. How does this affect the music? Is The music long now is this? Michael J. is thriller no longer a good song. Is Woody Allen no longer A good filmmaker and Wagner is the person who really raised this issue most prominently in the music world because seems to be very strong connection with Wagner and later Nazi regime. And that's that's a complicated issue and I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty of it. But the obvious question is should we still listen to vodka and the whole issue from for decades? You know you would never hear Wagner played in Israel and I think finally that changed a few years back is that right. Is that wrong And I I hate to to avoid an answer but my answer is there is no answer here you cannot. These are two different spheres. You cannot translate aesthetic judgment moral judgment and I've been studying Immanuel Kant they could get very philosophical. There's no formula here. We all have to make up our minds on this. This is where I come down. This is where I my view is that in most instances we should view the art on artistic standards and the person on moral standards. You're the thing I believe is no matter how great artist you are. That does not give you license to act reprehensibly in your private life. I do not give a free pass to artists on the other hand. I don't jump to the conclusion that Because this artist is and we've all done this and I'm sure you've done it. I've interviewed musicians. I admire and you meet them in the interview. It's disappointing to say the least. But that doesn't mean they're not a great artist. Probably the best way of describing someone said. I thought this was really funny. We're talking about some of these very difficult. Jazz musicians like miles Davis and someone will. They put all their sweetness into the music. There was none after their day-to-day life. Maybe it's as simple as that I don't know but the my view is. We should walk on these subjects cautiously. I fear we may be entering an age widespread censorship. I don't think that's you know if you're what's going on and I my view is that I think we should leave it up to individuals. Decide I don't want spotify telling me what musicians I can list. Thank you very much on the other hand if someone tells me they don't WanNa listen to Michael Jackson anymore. I respect that but I respect it. As an individual decision not as an institutional mandate so. I guess that's where I come down and and that's a heavy note to end on and I agree with you About a share your concerns. That were the potential to enter an era of serious. Censorship is is right upon us. And we've already seen a few relatively minor. Artists have their work race from spotify and I fear. We'll see more of it but I wanted to wrap up with one last quote You say when I tell people that music is closely connected to violence They often reject the notion out of hand because they sensed their own vulnerability the persuasion of the melodies. And you have this comeback to Harvard philosopher Steven Pinker who views music as a sort of brain stimulation what he calls an auditory cheesecake. And you say that isn't deadly cheesecake professor pinker. Like I said I just read yesterday. The Egyptian authorities or shutting down this music week does not go by in which I don't read about some government somewhere being afraid of music and that tells us that music is more than idle. Entertainment is more than the auditory cheesecake. Which Steven pinker tells US exists? Solely for brain stimulation it's powerful and it's incumbent upon us to recognize castaway we can know how to use its power for for productive things because for every time use used as a source of violence in war. It's also used as a source of of and and group bonding and positive ways and so knowledge is power there and as we know the power of music. That's what gives us ability. Dak responsibility a responsibility to use in constructive ways. And that's what part of my life's mission is all about well. Thanks so much for coming on the show. This is Ted Gioia the author of music as subversive history and delightful discussed the book again. And hope to have you back again. Soon follow the literal podcast on twitter at let it roll cast and check out our website at let it roll. Podcast DOT COM. Nate will be back next week with Mark Louison to talk about his definitive history of the Beatles the Beatles all these years volume one tune in let it roll is a Pantheon podcast and you can listen to all the other. Great Pantheon podcasts at. Www DOT pantheon podcasts dot com off music? A subversive history is published by basic books. Please support our show by ordering via the Amazon referral link on our website. Let it roll. Podcasts DOT COM.

Richard Wagner England Europe Classical Music Mozart United States Richard Wagner Ted Johann Sebastian Bach professor Beethoven Brahms Bach Mick Jagger School of Music Ted Gioia Bob Dylan Germany twitter Nate Wilcox
Cooking As an Art, Vol. 4, With Alex Ross | The Dave Chang Show

The Dave Chang Show

1:21:19 hr | 1 year ago

Cooking As an Art, Vol. 4, With Alex Ross | The Dave Chang Show

"In today's episode of gave Chang Show is brought to you by stateful state farm agents know that in anything can happen. You might buy your dream car in impulse. Come home to a broken in apartment maybe say yes to a proposal from your significant other can start a family or find yourself in a fender bender when you least expect take whatever happens when it comes to home and auto insurance state farm agents are there to help them with over nineteen thousand agents in neighborhoods across the US there. There could be one just around the corner so contacted agent today because no matter what neighborhood you're from for whatever stage of life you're in checkout state farm dot com to find into agent in your neighborhood stay far talk to an agent today and now the day of Changsha. Welcome to the Dave Chang show furthering podcast network presented by major Domo media. Thank you your tango as always for letting US use their music in the introduction. I feel incredibly lucky. Eighty two had so many smart people from all sorts of different disciplines on this show but every now and then I'll be sitting across from someone in. Oh my God I'm such a fucking dumb ass. This person and is way too smart for me and Alex Ross is one of those people. He's The music critic for the New Yorker where he mostly writes about classical recordings and performances. But he's also written didn't profiles about modern pop things like radiohead and Bjork and out awhile back even on pavement and he has his way of making people understand why music his relevant to them. That's why Meshu admire of his work because a guy like me doesn't know that much about opera classical music or jazz or modern classical music music so to hear him talk about Wagner in these associated ways is incredibly fruitful and beneficial to guy like me me and he's writing this massive book on Ricard Wagner widely considered one of the greatest composers of all time and when he compared wagner to Bob Dylan Wagner. Is the Bob Dylan of his era. Everything sort of made sense to me and I immediately instantly understood Wagner lochner better. Because he's a figure that I've had some idea of his music you hear Wagner music in some like fantastic movies and such. But I'm not the biggest classical music aficionado. I don't listen to all the time. But he someone I know from having to Study Friedrich Nietzsche and a lot of his works. He's he's a name. That constantly comes up in Nietzsche's writings. I'm also the last person that should be talking about. Nietzsche at all like my professors professors and college would be so pissed because I did not do well in their classes. Anyway as with Jerry saltz reverse Smith I love speaking to critics from outside the food world to understand what they do and maybe gleaned some lessons for my own world foods a lot younger and it's only recently been something that is studied read as an art form if you WanNa call it that you know painting sculpture music. That stuff's been around forever and we've been studying them so so we can learn a lot more from these forms. If I could study something I know nothing about. Maybe I can find some patterns that I can relate to the culinary in Harry World Anyway. I'm a big Fan of Alex and encourage you to check out his writing whether it's The New Yorker or is books he's a fabulous writer. I especially actually. I wanted to talk to him right now because he really wrote this amazing article for the New Yorker called Nietzsche's eternal return and how each has become this hero for people of all ideologies and beliefs even completely contradictory ones. And if you listen to this podcast you know that I'm someone who cites. Nietzsche Allot He. Someone that I've read read a lot more the past year or so and I mean I'm not going to sell a lot of people read them but he's a very obviously widely read philosopher in college. Didn't really resonate with me as it does now because I think I have some more life experiences and and I can read them in a different light. Apologize if this podcast gets way into the weeds on that anyway I will shut up and let you listen to someone much smarter than Me Alex. Ross I'm with Alex Ross. The music critic for the New Yorker. You've written two books you're working on your third third book. The book that is called the rest is noise listened to the twentieth century. You finalist for the Pulitzer that's amazing and it's probably took you a while to make that book write that book I would imagine I have a little bit of a history of handing in my books in you. Know six or seven years after of supposed to So I spent started working in the rest is noise my first book around Nineteen Ninety nine two thousand and so that was published in two thousand seven than the second book. Listen to this was a collection of essays. So that was the the turn into a you know quagmire and then the new book which is coming out the next year called Wagner. resum started pretty much nine years ago And so I just handed in the main scopes a couple of weeks ago Thanks because if you read your work you sort of get like you know little feeds that you're working on this book or How is that to spend that much time on this project? Because in this regard you're not critic anymore you're a creator of something right. Yes definitely not criticism it is you know I am not a trained scholar or historian And yet you know I I did a lot of research for this book emperor and it was just this. Many years of of reading explain the book is about Regard Wagner is influence on pretty much everything since his lifetime until the president but especially on the arts literature and around nineteen hundred. He was the creative figure in essentially really every art. Form that you you had to have an opinion about him. You know you could embrace you could reject You could have a mixed opinion but everyone had to have a stance On Wagner in a cents so he had a huge effect on somebody writers poets painters. Pretty much anyone you can think of Baudelaire Marcel Proust's Thomas Muscleman Virginia Wolfe James Joyce it goes on and on and on just grabble with that And it's it took so so long in part because I mean it's such a rich period of of cultural history of the late Nineteenth Century early twentieth century. It's always fascinated me. It's always been my home ground and kind of cultural terms and so years went by whereas just reading and re reading all this material it was. There's like a second college education in a sense but through this weird lens the Lens of Wagner how people reacting to the ever controversial of Wagner so so it became this world. I was living at my office at home is just you know the shells next to my desk are full of the Wagner Bucks Wagner Jason Brooks and like when it's actually done I can have to like totally reorganized everything because my study is built around. This project has been this this little kind of landscape. I've been I've been living in and I've really enjoyed it. Actually it's it's It's so feel so good to slow away down and immerse yourself and subject like that and I can't wait to read it because I mean you're an extraordinary writer and so you can make topics that I would. You know if I just read it on face value may not seem that interesting to me but wow this is fascinating. I don't know how you do it when you compared wagner to Bob Dylan Wagner. Then I got a better understanding. And that's what I love about your writing. You give me an associated context where I'm like. Oh everything is contemporary to someone. And then it gives me an idea so wagner is that I don't know people hate Bob Dylan as much as they might probably w no thanks. That's that was That peacefully wrote for the nigger website a couple of years ago was a little bit of a provocation location or or just kind of like a obviously a weird association to make And a lot of ways faulkner of major figure in classical music. Jake Bob Dylan on popular music. Abdullin is Jewish Wagner Torius Anti Semite. But what I saw in common was first of all. They're they're both writers of words and a music and they both have a a really powerful voice in by those media to the point where what is really affecting us here you know. Is it the music or is it the words and it kind of it's kind of so bonded together that you can't even tell the difference Anymore more and Wagner wrote the laboratory for all of his operas and and so he is a dramatised as well as a composer and it has its essay a trip to switch. I think in in the late nineteenth century and same way that that Dylan tripped a switch in the nineteen sixties where this work just impose itself fund people's consciousness. It was Something that again you had to grapple with you had to come to terms with and for a whole generation. You know they just you'd you too soon. Had to be listening to Bob Dylan in the same way. People who are coming of age around nineteen hundred day they had to have some you know militia with Wagner and that's what fascinates me and so they jumped out of the cultural sphere. They become political. Both of them had strong political opinions at different stages of their careers To the point where you also can't separate politics from the cultural aspects and and and that's really potent combination nations also. Kind of a you can get to the bottom of it. You know because also people are seeing themselves in figures like this and they're getting interpreted in so many different ways is that the figures themselves lose control of what their work means which is also a really interesting phenomenon So when I talk about Wagner. He's you know he's being interpreted on the left on the right. In all these different cultural fields as Global Hilton international phenomenon and was the same way with Delta than other major figures the sixty s and pop music and as classical music has receded from people's consciousness especially in the past forty fifty years ears just not nearly as popular in mainstream as it used to be like Wagner is still completely front and center he still intensely controversial. He's not played in Israel Israel because of his any semitic writings You still hear them all the time in Hollywood movies and like millions of people a year or get married to the sound of Wagner the the wedding march from Lindgren. So he's commanded you know centerstage and for better or worse how do you explain someone. I'm on like Wagner or many other figures particularly music that with hindsight or maybe not as good as we'd like them to be they've done some bad things or held some controversial beliefs tend to be able to figure out how it's still important to listen in still To appreciate their work. Can you apply that I to everyone else. That's bad well I think the interesting thing about Wagner is he has been questionable for so long I mean people have been debating debating whether Wagner is too horrible a man for for us to to listen to music since eighteen fifty five or so. So it's been this long long process of of people struggling with Wagner battling over him and some people have chosen to reject him altogether and and I personally have no problem with that. You know I love the music or I get a great deal out of the music but I have total respect for someone who do whatever reason whether they're Jewish survived the Holocaust or or whatever History they they bring to it. I just can't listen to the music music you know and and and so I have no Not GonNA attempt to argue that For me as as a cultural historian in Rather than as sort of a music lover It's it's fascinating you know. It's it that that's exactly why this this figure we remain so interesting. Though the complexity of this great achievement on the one hand and the ugliness on the other hand and how different generations have kind of swayed back and forth in terms of dealing with him and it almost becomes a model for how we deal with such troubling figures. Because it's been people have been Grappling with it for so long that there's just now this very rich history of of of people kind of figuring out ways to still present the music Without you know ignoring or sort of turning a blind eye to the ugliness of it so if you look at productions of operas since Nineteen Forty Five There is a lot of consciousness of what what does vagueness connection with Nazi. Germany mean how should we. How should we deal with that? Could we present the operas. In a way that that brings out other elements in wagner makeup. His his youthful leftism His kind of pro. Feminism in some ways You know other more positive aspects of his worldview Or you know can we Stages opposite away that like really directly confronts the Nazi Association of puts that on stage and and sort of you know. Let's people try to deal with added added and so so there's a great history of of you know how are we gonNA to solve this problem with with Wagner which I think you know now we can learn from as we look at all the other figures whose whose ugly past has come out you know some very recently. You know one of the reasons why I wanted to talk to. You is on this podcast. We've had this deep dive into criticism into other parts of culture. I think most of the people that listen to this podcast asked our our cooks. Although I know that there are many others That from a variety of fields that listen to this and as a whole one of the things we've been trying to do is he's got a better understanding of the culinary profession because I think as a whole it's been looked down upon for so long no one's ever really explored any associations and not might have or maybe maybe there's other parts of culture that we can have a better understanding of of which is explored We've had Jerry Saltz on Roberta Smith to understand art and food a little bit better or just our criticism We constantly look at sports to figure out how that might better Give us better insights to the food food world and one of the things we've never done Is Music criticism. Because I knew we were going to have that or just someone that understood music and culture as you done and really like you should read your book. The rest is noise. Because that's what you do use sort of music as a vehicle to talk about how it's influenced culture in every way possible even if you don't realize is it and I don't know a food has that kind of impact but I I didn't put together about like WanNa speak to you because I've always completely biased. I read your articles that are more about pop figures or dylan or bureau or something like that. My knowledge of classical music is is incredibly incredibly sad so I i WanNa know more but it's one of those things like I need to go deeper in. And maybe that's what I need to do. But when you wrote your article about three or four weeks ago in the New York about niche the niche as eternal return was. Yeah that was it and and obviously because you're working on this book about Wagner. I was like wow. I think you're doing what I hope to do with food. In some way take some that has has nothing to do with your core competency and then you just explain. EJ In a way that I hadn't read anything as clear and lucid bike. That in a long time about a figure figure that's been incredibly well written about with a lot of varying viewpoints. And I thought you gave a I mean I gotta read it again. That's great. It's a great article. If you know nothing about it or you're familiar a little bit about it and I was like man. Maybe I could talk to Alex to get his insights about music about culture As an art critic to better understand the culinary profession estranges that might seem right no not law and first of all. Thanks a lot have been so great to hear and you know my home mission. Ah starting out as a critic has been to find these kinds of connections from this world that does feel very remote To a lot the people you know maybe they played an instrument when they were in school. They went to a young people's concert. You know At an orchestra when they were in school But you know otherwise have had just this very glancing relationship with it. But you know when I've written about whenever it about jerk and radiohead which are two of the big pop music profiles I've done. I was attracted to them not just because I love their music but because I knew that they had strong relationships with Costco Music buric grew up playing the flute and she listens to a lot of of twentieth century and contemporary classical music. Same thing with the guys in radiohead and Jonny Greenwood The lead guitarist has a flourishing career. Now as a composer you know in his own right And so I mean I can't really tell the difference I mean that's probably part of why I I love that music. You know because I I hear those connections work here but also as a writer later. It's a great opportunity for me to grab people's attention who don't ordinarily care about classical music and say. Hey look you know the music you love has relationship up with Oliver messiaen's music or John Cage Arvo paired various other figures and instead of just kind of opened a little door in and people's minds and so it's it's kind of been my secret agenda because I never thought about it was like day in the life that's been influenced by modern modern classical music. Yeah it does sound that way and it just sounds good to me. Were talking heads or Brian. You know like yeah. These are artists that I really like. Maybe I should study the things that have influenced them too so I really appreciate that I can see the situation with cuisine and cuisine being something that people take for granted I say eats. But they don't necessarily think about it they don't think about how the practice of of out this really is an art form warm and and how it's been developing over the centuries and and the the connections that it has to neighbouring art forms people to stay ticket for granted and that's the way it used to be with music music back I would say in the the eighteenth century music was was constantly around who is being played but it was sort of consider backgrounds. You know in fact auk would lead performances of his works in a coffee house In Leipzig and you know the wealthy aristocrats would hire musicians to play during dinner and this was often great music works that are now considered classics Were Basically League Accompanying real original restaurant use it absolutely and and it wasn't really written about that much it wasn't it wasn't sort of taken mm seriously As an art form despite the fact that he has some of the most monstrously great figures in in musical history Bach and everyone else working in that in that period you actually sit of deficit of real criticism criticism as an art form and music really gets going in the nineteenth century When when there's this this bigger kind of mass public especially middle class Politics in the music. So that's when you start seeing that that critical record and and that that sort of syndrome repeats itself music. You know early on early. Twentieth Century Twentieth Century people weren't taking Louis Armstrong and Duke. Ellington him seriously. At first they were they were being written about. It was entertainment. You know Same thing with early rock bands and and so only after a little time. Does it sink in. Oh this this. This is actually a very important part of cultural history. And and so that delay I think is and if get Adam statement and art forms that are takes that turn when people really start to take it seriously. Do you feel that. That's still the rule of critic then is to shed light on something that the audience ends may not realize or under. Yeah absolutely I mean I never considered myself kind of critic who just delivers Sir evaluation. You know thumbs up thumbs down you know was was that orchestra in tune with soprano flat. You know How did they do they take the tempo to fast and the second movement? You know I do that in in my writing but I consider it somewhat secondary. You know it's it's an and essential ingredient but but the main drive of my pieces was always still look at the bigger picture you know. How did this performance? How does the work of this composer dozer relate to the world we live in and and you know what is it really telling us? And and so it's it's a kind of writing that is somewhere between journalism and and sort of subjective kind of personal impressions and and I instead of working on a few different tracks right simultaneously. Maybe me too the basis I really appreciate again your criticism and that's something. I hope that food critics can take a couple ideas from because it feels to me when you write about music music. Even if it's musically that a lot of people are unfamiliar with or its Esoteric is you're fighting for openness and you want people to have sort of a fresh set is as to how they might look at something or there might be a misperception about someone anything you're provided. Attempts to food critics can follow because you are in in the past and present so fascinating. I'm sure I mean I know there are a lot of great food critics out there. I I know that there's a sense people trying to figure out what you're doing right now. With how do we look at food that we've misinterpreted or just completely missed altogether together or you know something that I I look at like the these Urban myths that come out Mike. MSG something that. I'm a Advocate on it's just morally wrong. There's no information whatsoever that supports the Chinese myth that MSG bad for you or recently I read an article about the chef. Rocko Dispirito who has been now known as the guy on dancing with the stars and had the NBC. Show the restaurant. When I read your review I was like Oh this the I read this review by Kat Kinsman in food and wine and it reminded me about your salary article and the chef? Who was the hot young a young up and coming Next generational talent for America's now CNN as this almost tragic figure those that were in the industry mystery new otherwise yes it was sad that he decided to you. Know shoot the moon and it's almost like you know play tragedy button if you dig a little bit deeper into why and how the chef lived his life. It's not nearly fun to talk about it. It's not easy to make fun of. I should say the right and I feel that. There's a sense of humanity that has not been the case covering chefs and food figures that you are doing music in the food world old lease on the high end food world. There's a topic that may be the next great chef Doesn't exist anymore. that the the genius celebrity chef. That era is over and I don't know if we're asking the right questions you sort of touched upon this when you wrote your article on Leonard Bernstein Eighteen In the problem with sort of celebrating this this one figure that that it doesn't what is the problem by just creating this. This one mythic figure that no one else can sort of replicate. Well I mean he is such an incredible phenomenon unto himself started. It's hard to generalize I. There is only one Bernstein and is not going to be another one I I met him when I was a kid which was an incredible edible experience? I went to school in. DC's as you say yeah and better high school. In the West era that can be definitely debated straight education there. I've said that But so the schools on the campus of National Cathedral Fetal and Brenston came to conduct Mahler's Second Symphony And I got in there and watched him rehearse I just you know incredible to see him shouting at the percussion section allowed her And just met him. You're shook his hand And yet there's has the sparse that emanated from him. Even the twenty seconds that I Spent in his presence I think the problem with Bernstein. There were ugly aspects Sir to his personality especially in in later years and His consumption of alcohol and other substances personality shows about a chef. Yeah there are there issues there that that have been coming out but but in terms of the the the bigger historical picture. You're you know when you put someone on a pedestal. Like that when you we we sort of bet everything on a Bernstein you know. He was just the savior of classical music and he was on Broadway and he was conducting. You know creating these pieces and it created this precedent which was just impossible for for anyone to compete against and so for years and years. It's kind of died down on now but we would always be asking like who's the next Bernstein you know. Are you the next Bernstein. Does you're not the next inside. Like just go on and on and and so that that kind of you know defecation is just going to be problematic in the long term and yeah I think we're we're in a situation now music and I think a lot of other cultural forms that why do we do this American sensibility or is it a global thing. Oh it's global the handyman in Europe and classical the music the stakes are bigger and these people are glorified glorified to An even greater extent and of course this is where the culture came from in terms of if European the western European classical tradition So it's a it's a human habit I think we're looking for that leader that savior Who will elite US upward? And then you know. They can't fulfil our expectations and the return against them and like this this tribal kind of tribal mechanism. It's in all the old myths as you know the the the kangaroos raised up and torn down. And but I think in the art forms I think in architecture you know people have been talking about the end of the stark attacked the the star celebrity genius architect and in in in music and new music. People are looking past this sensibility. Where are you know? There's only a few people really Matter whether in composition or performance and and I think that's that's healthy but there's also something this. This is Ella Mental. Need you know with the people people go to concerts. They go look at buildings they they they go to great restaurants They go to museums in order to be overpowered. You know they're they want something exceptional. They want something awesome And and the the whole culture that is built up you know around trading and providing and said of also marketing that kind of experience that brings up all these pitfalls automatically. But we still we still want to. You know we still need it. So y'all can we have a future where where we have quote unquote genius. Who who are providing these kinds of experiences and yet they're all kind of really nice people and treating people it's tricky So it's but it is kind of working through of of that couldn't go genius. Model that Eh. that it seems like every art form actually dealing with this right now Absolutely in the food world to one hundred percent As a question not to be so reductive to food critic but I'm always asking myself just to better understand my industry again because because I've restaurants they get reviewed by critics. I WANNA know how a food critic thinks when read their work and all of these things to get a better understanding what they might think of our food. What does it take to be a good music critic then because it seems to me this is the one kind of criticism where if you're not constantly reading listening getting in better It's not gonNa look so good like you must be just consuming information all the time. Yeah I am. Yeah I mean it's you do need to keep up There are some basic qualities that I think you need to have to to do it. I mean there's no there's no exact training you know and you don't need to. Have you know a certain certain kind of degree you know to do it. As sort of level of of professional perfect pitch now definitely not I don't have perfect pitch and now you don't need to be a you can be a great musician without having perfect pitch at says it's it's it's not a necessity at all But you need some level of musical training like every critic I know has played an instrument played. I played the piano and oboe. It quite poorly but But my main thing actually was I wanted to be a composer So up until age eighteen hours reading these pieces that what made you stop. It was just a kind of dawning awareness that I wasn't even going to be Sally Airy. That'd be lucky if I if if I got to be very Just didn't have the actually. I didn't have the drive to do it. I would have ideas outright. Like a little kind of melody down or sketch out a texture sure and then it just wouldn't go anywhere you know and I wouldn't be able to think of what what comes next and I didn't have this this drive to to just kind of really dig into it and like Mike just obsess over it And kind of figure out where it was going and the odd thing is. That's exactly the quality that I have for writing and I don't know why my brain is like just kind of vague in this one area like sort of much different than in the neighboring area but was writing I I completely love. Oh love love is the right word I I I just kind of end up. You know getting swept up in this process of of you. Know if they're putting the initial sketch on on the page and then just just hour after hour day after day. kind of moving things around and reworking it until it's near the way I want and and and so that I didn't have that kind of Obsessive nece when it came to music. And you know I just love to listen and read about it more than than I wanted to Create it and I just loved the history and the biography in the background. You're listening to everything to it seems. Well I can't handlers genres. You're not just listening to classical music. And Yeah it's as I've gotten older sort of moving into my fifties now now I find it really hard to keep up with what's going on a couple generations. Vied is sort of keep up with my old favorites but it's the sort of overwhelming. So I think twenty years ago I was just a lot more plugged into what was going on and pop music and now it's but there's also just so much going on in terms of this so much feels like this mortal into its better known as Sallie but there's just more in classical music there's dislike now there's streaming. There's like a live concert happening in Australia which I can listen to on the Internet. You know Radio Stations You know orchestras filming their own concerts and putting them on the Internet and and so I just. I'm just getting a fraction of it. You know I just try all day long and there's always music playing always you know here's a name I don't know. Let me go explore. You know this person's work and and so you know there's that kind of basic nick kind of training or background that you have to get interested in it first and then there's this constant just keeping up you know you're an advocate the kit for modern classical music With my again limited understanding. It always sounds something that I don't know if I could just sit down and listen to and the way I feel people that are aficionados and fans of classical music genres. They tend to talk about in a way that I can talk about food. That can be ostracizing right right just bewildering. Yeah why why. Why is it so important to you? And when you try to explain the virtues and the brilliance of modern music I tend to feel the same way about modern. Strana me. Well it's not for everyone right but you have to appreciate the brilliance. Like you have to see what they're trying to do. The best way that I I can understand what you're trying to say it's like it's not supposed to be delicious. Might be if you understand sixteen different reasons why this dish was created for you. We need to have some knowledge beforehand but there are so many dishes right now in this twenty nineteen or just coming out of this modern movement mint right that were in place now. I don't know if anyone knows what kind of food were making anymore. It's just this ray. Complete Limbo is that sorta where music is classically. Yeah Yeah and of course like you know as someone goes to restaurants. I'm on the other side of like I'm of Philistine. Not kind of well-versed you know in in all the latest trends so you know. I may have a dish or like Nad. Like you know what that was about and And I'm aware that that that it's you you know it might be you know very sophisticated and and Worthy of attention. So it's funny. How you know you're going to stand up on different sides of that divide between the you know the connoisseur her just like the regular person You know for me. I know it's a tough sell you know and it's a tough sell within classical music. Never mind kind of all the other people out there. A lot of people who grew up with you know Bach Mozart. Beethoven Brahms Maybe Mahler at the tail and Who Love that music and have a huge problem with everything that came after that my parents were like that I mean they? They grew up taking me to Jimmy Music concerts around DC He and this was the music they really loved. And you know to this day they kind of scratch their heads over this stuff that I write about. What do you think causes that moment? Moment where you're just like. I'm not gonNA appreciate anything after this appointment I did. You see that in food exports and basically everything. Yeah people do get locked down. I mean I mean it happens in pop music where people kind of stopped taking new music after you know their their use you know and so kind of everything that happens after that is you know doesn't make much sense to them Of course in this case people are you know all this happened long before they were born. So it's not like you know Brahms was the music they grew up with you know and so it's a deeper problem which probably has to do with with you know. I think we are conditioned to to our culture has conditioned us to treat certain sounds as a normal you know Anderson listen harmonies tonal harmonies which we've just all kind of grown up in a culture that that makes them seem normal You know when you go around the world you find very difference ways of of tuning using and different scales In in South Asia in East Asian traditions it it sounds quite different so there is no universal. I'm really opposed the idea that there's some absolute global will universal standard natural. You know And that this is just the way it has to be. I think. That's that's really problematic. That's you no. That's not what art is about you know. We don't want one kind of universal form of music in any more than we want like a single language and a single religion you know we want diversity and different traditions different voices and it should be the same way and music so like what he said about that. Attitude with modern cuisine Zien is just be aware of this. This this is happening and you may not immediately grasp it but you have the census important. This is part of the creative field. And that's the attitude that I'm going to have and music as well where you know you don't have to love it but at least give it a chance and kind of be aware that there's something valuable and and like it's it's sincere. We'll be right back after word from our sponsors. Today's episode of the day. Jiang show is brought to you by masterclass astor costs let you learn from the best with exclusive access to online classes taught by masters of their craft. You can learn how to barbecue from the best in the world I think and Franklin you can learn how to cook French food from Thomas Keller or how to make sort of British Fair from Gordon Ramsay or California cuisine from dollars waters with over sixty different instructors across tons of categories. There's literally something forever. 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You think there's a problem in being stuck in style versus appreciating what happened in the past and that is a very dangerous place to be is yet dangerous but no one ever thinks. Business dodgers dangerous. There was like Oh. It's so lovely. Well there's I think there's there's healthiest yes TALCA and like though here's used to go to school and looks different now and But cultural nostalgia can very easily easily feed into nationalism. You know can you give some examples for those that may well You know when you know in Nazi Germany When Wagner and Beethoven and Brahms were were cast as these he's purely German Aryan Composers it was a wave excluding Modern composers were were Jewish or may have had no leftist political affiliations. Created this this this barrier And you know everyone before. A certain point in time fits the profile of what they want. You know a creative genius look like and an and people who come after are are you know rejected. I think Nostalgia I. It can feed into this idea of a more homogeneous homelands you know. Our everyone looked alike and once shared the same tastes and wasn't wonderful and and it sort of can push against the much more varied Ah World in which we live in which people are moving around the world much more. fluidly and traditions are having to really it. Coexists side-by-side all over the world and people can be very uncomfortable with that and the algae becomes a weapon to exclude them and again. I see this in food all the time when people say I only like this cuisine. I don't WanNA eat anything else. And that's fine but that's also scary very very to me that nothing else is valid other other than the food that you like I I'd like your opinion on this because I think about this a lot. A Lot Christie exerience. He knows that I think about this a lot but I want to understand better why individuals might be more open to something in culture say music or or literature that they may not normally is that they're not only they have a sense of openness. But I feel that majority people don't have that sense of openness that you try to write about so much and promote it's not like they don't want to feel like they're so afraid of change they're so afraid of. I think the suffering that comes along with being in a uncomfortable place And I thrive off that personally and I don't know how to get more people to get off that plateau where they feel that that's where they should be is place that's easy easy and acceptable and comforting. I don't think that's the case which like we'll get. I WANNA get to a little bit was why I was so enamored with your article about Nietzsche which is is like the more the dynasty and element of how he viewed life should be in terms of some balance without Appalachian. So that's sort of my personal take is how do so. How do we get people to get out of their comfort zone and I can only do that with food and I personally am always trying that too? But I'd love your take us to Y that happens to always be the case particularly with music is something that you've covered in An expert on I mean with music with food probably with every other art form. People tend to use These these worlds as a kind of Russia which you know and I think you know a lot of it has to do with just the the pace and the intensity and the density of the lives we live now. And how just you know from our our our during our waking life there's this jarring overload of information and there's just very rapid change terms of just the technologies. We need to use and end the fears that go along with these technologies in the sense that everyone is is exposed and uncertain and so art Culture becomes ever more this place that you go back to that smiliar inner. Go out to that Nice restaurant we logged. And it's it's GonNa be the same food and and you know we're going to enjoy that we'll go to the orchestra and we'll hear some wonderful Beethoven or we'll go to the rolling stones show and they're just still be playing the music pretty much say they offer like a century And and that is it becomes a counterbalancing to the sort of chaos and intensity of of their daily lives. And so and you know I'm sympathetic to that. You know I mean I realize is why people have those needs and how at the end of the day you know they go to a concert. They just might not be quite in the position to to deal with. Someone's kind of strikingly atonal Oreo. Based on you know the predicament. Predicaments of Syrian refugees. And like that does might be too much for them to handle at at ABM after they've blurred car donald. Listen like they caught it. They want to relax. But you know I understand that but you can't. You can't have a healthy art form you know. If that's if that's the main the main gene kind of impetus is just to kind of let me will kick back the balance and music right now where it is comforting to style and something. That's out of the it can happen. That's always tricky. Because there's some portion of the audience that that actually wants that you know they don't want to hear the eighteenth performance of Beethoven's Fifth Symphony. They WanNa hear the the new thing and they want music. They might actually not be interested in coming to the concert. Unless there is is a contemporary composer. perhaps one who's not a white male you know who is grappling with with some you know significant Afghan political issue And and it becomes a you know you have this audience that just is made up of people with very different needs and very different interests. So so it's a very tricky to balance all of them. I think some places we we have achieved the good balance and To praise the local orchestra gone the La Komo. Nick has found a really good mixture of the new and the old They heavily promote break composers. Yes often quite daring once Also find all the Beethoven and Tchaikovsky that he want it makes a daring modern composer. Well well you know It's not daring anymore. I think to be a tunnel to have you know harmonies that that are very dissonance. And and kind of assaultive I actually enjoy that kind of music. But it's been around for a long time. There's been a century now of people working in that idiom so to be daring these these days. I think probably has more to do with subject matter or with just creating you know bring different elements into the piece whether it's electrtonics or or non Western Musical traditions or or a text. That's very of the moment sort of anything that departs from from the template you know that is considered acceptable for the generation. That came before are you. You know so that. At urge to to innovate and to stretch the boundaries is still very much alive. Well when you listen to what you say. Country Acts that has beautiful music. But you've never heard it before and it sounds not so nice to you on the first handful of times how do you judge that right from what would be American Eurocentric understanding of music even though you have sure incredible global understanding because I'm trying to better understand. Things gets an album that I was thinking about these things when I taste the dish room like I don't know if I like that but then like five hours later like that was the best dish had. Yeah what how do you do that as a critic. Because I've what may be seen as a weakness as to something that you don't have an expert knowledge on allows you to a different perspective. Is that a weakness that you don't don't know everything no can't you know Denault Incan know everything you know. It's it's impossible to begin with but but I think actually to step outside of Your Comfort Comfort Zone and expose off to something that that you're really quite uncertain about in terms of the technique of it. You know as well as your ability to appreciate it is is so important you know because you know even if there are shaky moments where you're trying to talk about it and you're not really sure that you I know what you're saying As you said it can be the beginning of of a really rich relationship And I I'm fascinated by that moment moment that you just described where the first time you hear something you taste something and you don't get it and a but there's something in the back of your head that like and yet ads. There's something here I'm not you don't you don't reject it. You know you're like me had that moment you I heard Let me think Because I love these moments them. All right I just I just heard this the this piece that I'm sort of grappling with Writing about right now in New York called Zahle Berlin which took Schumann's great song cycle digitally and mixed in temporary work extra music and and actually did try to turn it into a story about a Syrian refugee a singer who goes to Germany mini and my first impulse was. It didn't work at all but but that sort of I've been thinking back on it and realizing how you know sometimes what seems to work as just departing from the template that you're familiar with and so you try to go back and you know I can't really hear it had that one chance but but I kind of try try to relive it in my head and try to see if well is there another take I can find on this because that state of mind is you know so the so then like you said like five years later. You're completely in love with this dish of this this work. It's become like the most important thing to you in the world and you think back in like what was going got in my head. You know that that first time. Why didn't I get it when I first heard Bob Dylan for years? Actually my roommate's in college will be playing. Bob Dela Old hippy. Guy Got you know squawking away and then this moment came in Sears two years out of college and I was in Berlin actually staying alone in an apartment Oh my friend is apartment. I was barring decide like five. CD's and I was desperate for for somebody. Listen to and one of them was highway. Sixty one revisited. And I put it on and the first time I was like kind of kind of interesting and then again at lack back seriously by the end of that day or like two days later I listened to think like twenty times and I was like started. Abubakar is the lyrics. I just I became obsessed in an instant. You know so so so there was some kind of vulnerability that I had. Maybe just because I was in a different country and bit lonely and I disavow open myself to this experience. Dance So you've got to be you've got to let yourself as a professional as a critic kind of encourage yourself to have those kinds of Komo humility. Yeah just rethinking go back to think again like let me try again you know just sort of have the stap detriment and then move on and forget about You know I'm constantly revisiting things and I've learned from experience that there's a certain state of mind where I'm puzzled. I kind of with didn't like it. All that much had a lot of trouble with it and yet something pulls me back like. That's a sign that this this could be something really important like this. You know because because when it went instead of Gig when you have that push and pull kind of happening in you dad can very often be just the power of this new idea. Fighting fighting against your unfamiliarity and resistance to just what's what's different about it and when you get past the unfamiliarity subtly delay the greatest thing ever and so I I love those experiences because it's not always love at first sight. What happens in criticism when someone files a review when they're still in a mode where they're like? I hate this because it happens right. Yeah food all the time. Yeah I've written I've written reviews where I was just kind of just having a fit. You know what I what I saw. House update When I saw the last New Wagner Ring Cycle At the Mat And I really. They really didn't like it and I and I wrote this view is kind of flew off. The handle has become widely quoted. Kind of one must squad McCoy two. Thanks ever You know and And you know it's not that I'm ashamed of it I went back and saw the the production again Dan last year and I didn't hate it as much I still had lots of problems with it. they'd also made some improvements kind of ironed out some difficulties but it was it was on. It was honestly what I was feeling at the time. And and that's really all I can do. You know I I if critic rejects those those Ross this wall immediate impressions and instead starts trying to right. Well this is kind of what I should be feeling or or kind of Sir You know Sort of fantasizing. Some kind of you've just gotTa go with the the the raw data you know inside of you you can you cantona down. You know you can and the same goes for positive reviews because I've written wild positive reviews that like years later Mike quite quite that great You know so see you can. I don't know it's not like you. It's not like you damp it down so that it just becomes very cautious listen neutral because that's also no one wants that you know but the trick is to somehow have it in your own voice enough that it is this is comes across this as the expression of individual. You know like one living breathing person having this subjective impression and and even if it's very strongly worded this kind of quotation marks mountain always so fascinated by that element of critic and the reader particularly in in all the arts that are not food because food is so transient in the moment literally will be a toilet innate nine hours and what you taste aced as a critic will not be used by anyone else right. So that's why they go three or four times but as someone that follows An a music critic critic or a movie critic I it's I have an ability as a baseline to I disagree or agree and that's the one thing about food that I don't know if I can never explain it's the it's what makes food criticism. Great and terrible music is closer though to to that kind of transition experience than film or literature because the movie is fixed the book is fixed. You know people will have different impressions of a very different takes on it. But the text I itself is literally black and white with And the same goes for pop music and someone records an album. That's that you know is fixed forever With classical music performance it it will vary from night tonight. You know Opera you know opera singers are operatings some very tricky machinery. It does of yeah the he would voice at Go Up and down in our from night tonight and one night it it will be Bryant and the other next night they'll have a little disaster and and so so and then it is most of the time it's gone you know of now more and more stuff gets recorded on the Internet and there's a stream and that's archive wherever but but the average concert just does go away. You know at ten PM SAT And and so that that is really interesting. Challenge because you're reader if if he or she wasn't there can't have exactly the same Experience And so you are what are you doing. You know you're not. It's not consumer for kind of consumer reports like you know should you buy this product or not Because the product is gone it was just that one night you know but of course you know they might want to go to a later performance of this opera. There might WanNa see this pianos. You know the next time She got the town and and so that So there is a more general kind of Foremost of speaking to the quote unquote consumer. But but that Edison fascinating element of it. Are you writing for the consumer to drive sales times or is it have any bearing because I wonder about that now with against any kind of criticism where everyone has access to sort of something. You're now sort of trusting your opinion as like a taste maker almost right. Well Yeah I don't I've never I mean you can't have influence there's no doubt The best kind of influence that I can have is drawing attention to someone people don't know about in this angry. You know this this this person's actually special and and that's that's a great feeling you know where you feel that you've you've helps to to sort of bring someone one To the surface But must the time you know when I'm writing about Gustavo doodle or the pianist Lang long long You know they're they're they're famous. They'RE GONNA sell out concerts and it's just not going to have too much of an effect one way or another what I say But that's not that I don't think that's my job at all you know. It's not to to decide people whether or not the you know you buy a CD or go to a concert. I always think that I'm leading a conversation helping to lead a conversation about the art form you know and and and just kind of throwing some ideas out there that that people can take into account and and you know in their own kind of private conversations or or no other critics may reply and sort of come into conversation with with what I do. It's it's about it's about giving people of glory you know And and and just kind of supplying some throwing some ideas into the mix which is you know in music and this may be the same way with food? Everyone has an opinion. They have very strong. Impressions May Not Know How to articulate it. You know And and so That's me with food. Would I like that kind of little salty or you know it's like a I have. I don't have that vocabulary ready to hand. And and and so you know it's just great to have every art form needs to have this this zone of discussion and conversation debate. You know around it because it helps helps to keep it alive and fresh and Jarrett out of out of the old repeating patterns Before I get you out of here Eliah talk about your article you wrote on on each again and again how it references Wagner but more specifically you touch upon how ever since You know even before he died but she is now seems he's never unpopular right more so now than ever before and I. I've been reading a lot more than Egypt because while I read them in college it was interesting to me for the same reason and I think a lot of college kids find him interesting But now I see it in a very different way and I keep on going back to a lot of his works a a different insights and I remember reading the birth of Tragedy In college. Being like this is horrible. I don't I don't like any of it now. I see it as a maybe this is the problem. We have right now or just eliminated a lot of the suffering. That life is important to sort of memorialize realized around and we just want the easy in the rational. I see this food all the time right and I think it's incredibly problematic and I have a couple questions questions. Is it problematic to us as sort of a reference point because he has a lot of controversial viewpoints points but misunderstood viewpoints. To which you talk about which a lot of people may not even know about his sister and not going into his life but is it even as even work like his philosophy right because there's so many viewpoints. He has oftentimes contradictory right right. Yeah well I mean Now of course of course he's valid as a reference point. I mean he's he's part of our cultural history you know he's a huge figure And any also occupies this interesting position which is somewhere between philosophy and literature. You know so. He's never you can never pin him down you know. And and and so he comes out with these drastic sounding statements. God is dead and so on and yet and yet there's always a contradiction are there's always kind of a qualification and he sort of spins it this way or that an end and moves it much more into the kind of realm that we associate with literature where we're being that have taken into a world's imaginary Agean I world of of living breathing human beings interacting and kind of having this life with them And and the ups and downs. And you know I the characters very appealing and then then something. Ugly happens in your repulsed and Nietzsche's writing. I think because that same kind of fluidity you know. Everything is in flux. You know. And that's why it's so powerful owners of applying to our own lives because he he said gives you off these measuring sticks and these these kind of these lenses through which to see that kind of breath flux and constant change and contradictoriness In a way that it just seems to make more sense. It's just you know it it it it it's it's it's about kind of Mapping Mapping incredibly complex worlds and and sort of finding a path through it and. That's what what I think inky so brilliant at Several in terms of the you know there there is ugliness in nature. There's misogyny there's this this cult of power force ARSE and That was taken up by the Nazis and and is being taken up unfortunately by a lot of all right and neo Nazi and white supremacist. People today. it's it's dangerous vocabulary to play around with power and Superman and the individual. Who who can somehow master The the world around on them But that's only a part of what of what he's out and I think the the Superman is the strange literary character in the Andy like who who. What is this person? It's extremely elusive as to. What is he talking about? You know and ultimately it does come back to you. Know One of the most appealing things about which I talked about in the piece. Is this idea that that. Although Nietzsche had this apparent cult of power he never unwanted any one entity or or person or forced to become predominant And and for him it was a disaster. If if a single state or single ruler you know acquires ultimate power so the power that he was seeking was to counteract the powers that are already out there and he valued this this special antagonism everything was always a struggle a battle And I think it really comes comes out of his relationship with Wagner because Wagner this overpowering figure hugely famous in his own time and Nietzsche became very close to him for a little while and he was kind of Wagner flaky and he was running around. And you know Picking up you know caramel chocolates from somewhere for for regarding Kuzma Wagner Wagner. Had A bit of thing for these silk undergarments to draper on his person. So so Nietzsche each have to go pick those up somewhere and and after after a while. He rebelled violently against that But he what he rebelled against was was I was just the the degree to which everyone he loved. Wagner when Wagner was underdog and then in each in seventy six when wagner spring was first was performed Bayreuth Wagner. Kelly became this great national symbol of of resurrected Germany And and that was too much furniture and and so he wanted to become wagner great antagonised and said go to battle with with Wagner. Well Still Jill Loving his music all the time. He never used very complicated. He never fell out of love with the music. And and I. That's that's a healthy picture for for contemporary society. I think we're we're no one element becomes supreme and and there's a kind of Balance and attention. Listen between all these elements and I don't think Nietzsche would be particularly fond of the society. We live in now where whether are few corporations that have incredible power. Where you know? We're we're we're giving our lives over to to these devices that that Control some aspects of our lives and it's a very unequal society and so many ways And so I think you'll be all for pushing it back pushing back against this powers that be and But you know every art. Every great work of art can be misused. No matter how pure and beautiful it seems MM S- It can be distorted it can be made ugly There's what Bob Dylan say behind every beautiful thing. There's been some kind of pain And I think he can say Behind every beautiful thing. There's been there's been something ugly There's there's there's a crime there's there's there's a oppression you know so much of our great art has has been very ugly history behind it And this is. This is the price we pay. I think for for for having this art at all can never be pure we have to accept that. There's that there's there's a kind of shadow always hanging over it And and that's just the complexity of life you know it's being human where we're a species that has some very wonderful and some very horrifying and terrible Energies saw mixed up together. And someone like Nietzsche someone like wagner just throws that back at US mirrors it back at us us in a way that a lot of people find uncomfortable but it is the reality. F- that's who we are. I can't believe I keep on going back to this stupid book. I read in philosophy class. I'm like Oh my God I just can't get out of my own head with this damn book and I never never thought my wildest imagination I still be thinking about this guy entire life. Well that's that's great though. That's I think that's part of the you know when when these figures from I'm from a very different time in a very different world kind of have that that grip on us you know we're bringing as much to it as they are bringing to us you know is it. It really is a relationship you know you are taking aspects of it and applying it in ways that that need to himself you know. Couldn't have imagined But I think every every artist however much they want to control what people think of their work and so often they do you know They also have to accept an ultimately encourage the the fact that that is going to run away from them and people of of there on time and of of the future are going to make something very different of it And that's that's why it stays alive. They becomes immortal. Our becomes immortal the moment I think it is just radically misinterpreted like you know. Put a dis- of context that has to do with what the the Creator intended you know That's when it comes back to life innocence. I have no idea what each with say of this. I give this to a lot of my exact chefs to think about when they're making a dish and it's early on in Bertha tragedy where the quotas that he wants to transform Beethoven's hinder joy into a painting. Let your imagination conceived the multitudes bowing to the dust awestruck that you will approach the dynasty and I want them to make food that tastes like that to make someone awestruck of like holy. Fuck what just happened right. And you're never GONNA get there. It's almost an an impossibility right and I know that he was obviously talking about music. But I do believe there's ways you can make food or at least try that failing you know their success in that failure failure and I have the hardest time trying to convince mine team to to do that because it's much safer to just play by the book right. Yeah but we're also also what Nietzsche's talking about and what you're doing is so important. which is you know one art form bouncing into another you know and and and how it's not all insular you know an an a a working music doesn't just affect you know other musicians and other composers It it it leaps leaps out and affects someone in a very different field in a way that you can't even analyzed because like how does out of the music is music effect. A painting in you know how does A work of German philosophy effect food. Your campaign it down. There's no like this Camino chemical evidence of Soga Okay transaction there it's associations Kind of in the brain. But that's important and that's my next book is going to be about the book is about vulgarism as music affecting the other arts. I'm not going to actually talk about Wagner affecting other musicians at all It's about the painters and the and the writers and such a weird relationship because it is it is like an it's an impossible translation you now Such a good job of explaining that and sort of what you did with the twentieth century and your first book reference noise. So I'm looking forward to to reading reading this new book thanks. Thanks when's IT GONNA come out September of next year carrying so it's GonNa be grinding the process now of anything anything else. You're working on I we'll have other pieces for the New Yorker coming up the reviews and swallows a few longer pieces. I WANNA write about emigres in Los Angeles all the European composers and authors who came here in the nineteen thirty s Thomas Mon and so on it's it's a somewhat forgotten aspect aspect of L. A. History but really important and slept all kinds of traces Here some poking around in that right now for people that are not familiar with with the the goings on and happenings of of modern classical music. Water some composers that they should check out our artists sure. Yeah well one composer that I find. Few people can really resist is Arvo parrot. G. A. R. T. But allowed over that a Estonian composer who in Nineteen Seventy S. Started writing this very quiet very slow moving More or less minimal minimalist minimalist music but he was also heavily influenced by religious ideas and and it's it's music. There's people just tend to be mesmerized by from the first time they hit And and so he's always Someone that I find people respond respond to or from the same period. Steve Rush The great American men was composer a his piece music for eighteen musicians. Musicians Is is a work that will probably counteract A lot of people might assess assume kind of modern music is going to sound sound like an influence some famous brothels yeah velvet underground. No not opponent Brian by email. And Yeah talking heads for me So it is it is music this kind of is somewhere between Causing music and modern jazz and and and the the kind of you know later art rock tradition Russian and and you know the you know there's also the very to spring or something you know very very classic so There's so many different places you can down. There's no one right way. Well Alex a real pleasure to have you. Thank you for sure. This is awesome. Well that was Alex. Ross one of the smartest writers. He's out there. I'm so thankful that he agreed to come on our podcast. We record this again in. LA at the Ringer Studios before the holidays. Just before Christmas. I think anyway studying trends matter and if I can have a better insight in terms of how Nietzsche and Wagner Wagner to titans of fields particularly wagner sort of had an impact on culture and how it overlaps with so many other parts of the world we know today I think it makes sense to study this stuff a little bit deeper and for a guy like me. I need to have some associated thinking so it's important important for me to talk to someone. That's an expert in their field such as Alex and maybe the best way to understand the future is to better understand understand the past and not the first person to say that it's why I think people study history and the older I get the more and more I want to study all the the things I sort of glossed over when I was younger and I think if we study high end dining and where it's going and the trials and tribulations nations as to the relevancy of certain kinds of food and high-end dining I think you might find some parallels in terms of how classical music has evolved evolved and while it's still here today and how it's morphed into different things that may or may not be pleasing to hear. They're still a lot of of talented people making this again. I'm not a classical music expert at all but talking to Alex and talking to some friends that are very well versed versed in classical music. Maybe there's a way for food to see what happened there. It's sort of like was an accident that Alex was is talking about it. But I just feel like how he wrote about him in his article. Nietzsche's eternal struggle that it was one of the best explanations of his philosophy philosophy. Anyway getting into some ask Dave at major DOMO MEDIA DOT COM questions. Let's see here LEX. Miranda right. In what small city would you put against a large city culinary wise I would put my CD Lancaster Pennsylvania against any. I think because we are known as the refugee capital of the US. We have some of the best diverse cuisine lex Miranda. I had no idea lancaster. PA was as diverse. As you say it is I would love to learn more I actually don't even know what to say that's cool. I love the fact that that can happen in terms of the the best small cities. I don't know like growing up in northern Virginia. It's a suburb of a larger city or a smaller city. Right like Annandale. Virginia to me has great Korean food. It also has great Salvadorian cuisine. And it's just a great the place to eat. I mean falls. Church also has some good things to eat but that was. It's been a long time but I I do know I still go to visit ended out with my parents and I'm always always pleased as to how delicious it is and it's a place where my mom and dad probably go at least once a week if they are feeling to it but You Know Lancaster Mr. Pa I'M GONNA learn more Probably look it up right after I stop this podcast but to be honest. I don't know that much about small cities ladies. I'm sorry most of my food. Knowledge tends to come from bigger places on the on the coast. So there's a lot for me to mine and to study and and If you have some places to eat in Lancaster. PA LEX. Please send us. And we'll read them on their courtney. Maka Shema writes in in to ask David Major DOMO MEDIA DOT COM. I've been really enjoying the podcast and my husband and I finally got a chance to that moment. Who in Las Vegas and it was amazing? I live in Silicon Valley. So as wondering if you'll ever open a restaurant near the bay area Courtney. I don't know if I will ever restaurant in the bay area. I mean listen to some of my best friends have restaurants in the bay area and they're just crush it. They're just kicking ass and I couldn't be prouder of them. I'm in San Francisco. The Bay area has terrific food. Oakland got going on Silicon Valley on the other hand. I don't know that much about so maybe one day will restaurant. Obviously I got in a ton of trouble like ten years ago. Two thousand nine inch when I did talk with Anthony Bourdain. It was probably like the first year New York Food and wine festival and I got a little drunk and got me into trouble because I I said San Francisco The bay area. Everyone eats figs on a plate. I don't WanNa get deep into that. But it caused this giant fucking shit storm and the reality is I love the bay area. I love the the produce and the farmers markets there. But I don't know if I'll ever open a restaurant there because I don't know Once I say I don't know if we'll open a restaurant there I'm always like yeah. Maybe we will so horny. I'm GonNa say maybe how about that. That's it guys. Please keep on sending those questions into as David Major. The media DOT COM or give five stars on Itunes and right in a question on the common part. Anyway I'm in Las Vegas. I not not partying. I am working my ass off and I haven't slept at a while so I feel tired and I'm going to go to bed tonight. Guys talk the next week.

Bob Dylan Wagner Bob Dylan Alex Ross Wagner Friedrich Nietzsche writer Beethoven Brahms Germany US Mike Jerry saltz radiohead Dave Chang Changsha Ricard Wagner Wagner Bucks New York Leonard Bernstein
Israel Daily News Podcast, Thu. March 11, 2021

Israel Daily News Podcast

18:24 min | 6 months ago

Israel Daily News Podcast, Thu. March 11, 2021

"Good morning broker to bear. This is shannon full here with the israel. Daily news podcast. I'm here give you the headlines so you can get caught up quickly. You're listening so you're already on top of your game. Survive and thrive people knowledge. Is the best weapon. Today is thursday march eleven twenty twenty one which means we have a special report at the end of the show and its musical now. Let's get to the news prime minister. Benjamin netanyahu is his scheduled trip to the united arab emirates for a fourth time for multiple reasons. It was reported late last night. That netanyahu's wife. Sarah was hospitalized with appendicitis. If that wasn't enough jordan refused to clear. The israeli delegations flight path over their kingdom. This is most probably in retaliation for the jordanian crown. Prince's cancelled trip to the temple. Mount on wednesday which was called off due to a dispute with israel over entry permits for his large security detail. Netanyahu's trip to the u. A e has been planned for several months but was postponed most recently in february. Netanyahu is seen as eager to make the trip before the march twenty third elections. The voyage was expected to be a celebration of israel's normalization deals with its arab neighbors which was coordinated by netanyahu as well as a chance for him to boast his diplomatic credentials. There's an update on yesterday's story of the hamas elections in gaza yasur. Gaza governor has been reelected by. Hamas's shoora council. After three rounds of voting ended in a stalemate similar narrow lead challenger iwa dula attaining just over fifty percents of the council's vote hamas elections are kept within the political branch and are largely a secret from the public sin warr the longtime hamas charity chief spent decades in israeli prison before his release as part of gilad shalit twenty eleven prisoner swap gilad. Shalit was an idea soldier. Sin juarez sets serve another four year term ending in twenty twenty-five the israel defense forces declares their troops have reached herd immunity as eighty one percent of the military is either already vaccinated had contracted the virus in the past or both the idea is now the world's first army to achieve this lofty goal chief medical officer general dr alone. Glassberg says herd immunity would allow the military to return to more normal operations though troops would still be required to wear masks social distance and follow other coronavirus related restrictions as outlined by the government policy. Because are so spread out. The idea found the inoculation campaign to be a logistical challenge more than a medical one but nevertheless they made it happen and achieved a great feat. Israel daily news podcasters. We are continuing our fundraising drive and are looking for one hundred paid subscribers by passover. If you've been enjoying this daily report support it so that it can continue to come out daily. You can send over a monthly contribution at anger dot. Fm backslash israel daily news backslash support. We have one central link in the show notes which you can click on and it will take you to the page where you can put in your credit card details and feel good knowing. You're supporting independent journalism. So if you're listening to the podcast right now you can go to apple or spotify wherever you're listening to the show. Currently you can click on the link. We have the link there in the show notes so underneath the name of the show. There's a little description there in that description is a link you can click on it and it will take you to our page where you can click on the support button and support us right there. How else can you support the israel. Daily news podcast. Well one you can leave us a review on apple podcast to you can share the show with a friend and three you can follow us on social media at israel daily dot news as well as shannon that's h. a. n. a. f. u. l. d. i am your host. It's being reported that items belonging to the legendary israeli spy. Elie cohen have been returned to israel from syria via the russian government. Cohen was an operative in syria for a long while where he built an entire second life only to be discovered and publicly murdered in nineteen sixty five. If you have not watched the six part netflix's series called the spy. I highly recommended. It's about his life. We even interviewed one of the actors named yet l. A ton right here on the israel. Daily news podcast. She played a role in this mini series. Now back to the news here in an interview with twenty four news prime minister netanyahu confirmed reports. That russia is cooperating. With israel in searching for cohen's body which was never returned however he refused to comment on whether some of collins items have been returned to israel or not i twenty four quoted an unnamed syrian government source who is seeing the item or items that were handed over to israel could be documents or pieces of cohen's clothing russia's actively searching for cohen's body which is believed to be in a refugee camp in damascus. Russia has backed the syrian regime throughout its civil war and has a significant military presence in the country. The syrian source went on to say that syria and russia are at odds over what to demand from israel in terms of information on cohen's remains so what they should get for it. Elie cohen's widow. Nadia raised doubts about the return of her late husband's remains in an interview but is still hopeful. Cohen will forever be known for his infiltration into serious political leadership in the years leading up to the six day. War of nineteen sixty seven. He played an enormous role in israel's success there. I don't want to spoil the series for you so if you haven't already watched it do so populations of birds in israel are facing serious decline in recent times hunting. Climate change and destruction of natural habitats are all factors. Israel is an important region for yearly migration where species from africa europe and asia. All come through the holy land to get to their next destination now. Bird migration into israel is thinning out across the country and across various species. Ornithologists are worried because birds are essential to ecosystems and serve as a natural indicator for the health of the environment of a region altogether researchers hope to accrue more data on this concerning trend to see photos of the specific birds that we are talking about head to our social media page israel daily news and we will highlight the ones there that are in danger. So that's on instagram or facebook. Popstar neta bars. Eli has been selected to be a judge for israel's fourth season of the x factor which is a music competition created by simon cowl. Neta is most famous for winning the twenty eighteen eurovision competition with her song toy. I actually covered it for the jerusalem. Post back in two thousand eighteen. She'll be judging alongside legendary judge. Simon cowell who has never judged on an x factor show outside of the united states or the united kingdom. How cool is that. he's coming to. Israel are feature reporter. Benny forest ad said something smart. Which is that kabul. Probably sees israel as the first country around the globe that will be able to host. The competition live and in person. The show is set to return to television sometime during twenty twenty one and now for our special report. Reo lonnie an israeli piano. Prodigy began learning to play the keys at age. Four just three years later at the age of seven lonnie made his orchestral debut. Today at the age of twenty three lonnie has graduated from the jerusalem account of music and has already put together quite the resume from performing solos in the israel symphony orchestra to winning the grand pricks and a motto in paris. Lonnie has a stack of achievements in the music world despite covid nineteen lonnie and sixty two other. Pianists are invited to participate in the leeds. International piano competition in england. Now what is the leeds piano competition. Let's get the scoop from israel. Daily news reporter kobe cabanera the leads competition takes place every three years and invite sixty three distinguish pianists from all over the world. These talented musicians flocked the city of leeds in england. For the opportunity of life changing exposure emprise packages i had the chance to speak with lonnie about representing the holy land on the international stage. It means a lot to be able to represent israel in this competition. since A number of my friends and other pianists whom i looked up to as a teenager from israel did the lead condition and to be in the same place that They were in previous editions. Means that we went on to ask arielle about what advice he would give aspiring musicians back in. Israel always remember that music is a lot more than whatever instrument playing so make sure to discover music in a holistic manner and And look past the prism of the repertoire. That you're practicing on whatever instrument you play because because it's a lot more than that we were able to ask adam gatehouse the artistic director of the leads competition about what separates leads from other competitions. I think what distinguishes the leads apart from the fact that we really look after all our competitors in a very special way is the world-beating price package which includes wealth management with eskenazi halt and recordings with warner classics as well as a whole series of international concerts. That and we focus on the core classical repertoire. Bach mozart schubert. Beethoven brahms shop. Adam went on to talk about how leads had to adapt due to covid nineteen. We have increased the number of locations of our international first round from free to sixteen including london. Berlin vienna paris moscow milan beijing tokyo and new york while the first round of the competition will take place virtually due to covid. The plan is to host the final round person in the city of leeds. Arielle just could be the first israeli to take home the trophy. Wow the opportunity to be the first israeli ever to take home the trophy while we are rooting for you lonnie. I have to tell you something. I checked out mr lonnie and found that. He has three point five thousand subscribers on youtube. If you heard some piano at the beginning of the show yes that is him but before we go. Here's a clip of him playing the violin at the age of seven. All right well. That's it for today's episode. Today is thursday march eleventh twenty twenty. One tel aviv has a low of fourteen degrees celsius and a high of twenty degrees. That's fifty eight degrees fahrenheit for the low going up to sixty eight degrees for the high. It's supposed to rain in tel aviv. Late tonight subscribe to the israel. Daily news podcasts. Spotify or podcast or wherever. You're hearing it from. I am everywhere. Dover get a sign up to our israel weekly news rap it's a newsletter with top five stories coming out of israel from throughout the week. You'll also get the cliff notes version of our original stories investigations and interviews. You can sign up by using the link in the show notes. Thank you two miles gilbert. Benny forced ad and kobe cap. Ner for your contribution to the research and writing of today's news. Here's hayden sonata in c minor played by israel's arielle lonnie. He recorded this piece at the royal academy of music in london it was written in seventeen seventy one a few years after the monumental stabat mater which is a christian him. This sonata is also said to have had a profound influence on. Mozart's c minor keyboard sonata. And on beethoven's pathetic so nata also in that same key that's all according to the description online video which we have the link for in the show notes great and productive day and an excellent weekend. Chabad shalom everyone

israel Hamas Elie cohen cohen netanyahu Netanyahu shoora council iwa dula russia Glassberg syria lonnie shannon russian government prime minister netanyahu Israel syrian government Benjamin netanyahu
England: British Library

Rick Steves Britain & Ireland Audio Tours

29:25 min | 6 years ago

England: British Library

"The british library the british empire build its greatest monuments out of paper at the british library. You'll see some of the many documents literary historical end musical. That changed the course of history. Hi i'm rick steves. Thanks for joining me. On a guided walk through the best collection anywhere of old books maps scriptures and historical letters. These national archives of britain include more than twelve million books hundred and eighty miles of shelving and the deepest basement in london but everything that matters for our visit is in one delightful room where the most important documents are on display. Start with these top stops then straight. According to your interests allow yourself an hour to do. Justice to this audio tour will stand before ancient bibles. The works of shakespeare highlights. English lit one. Oh one the magna carta end ladies and gentlemen the beatles how to use this audio guide as you can see from the display window on your mp three player. Each of the british library's greatest hits has its own title and track number much like the song tracks of cd or album. You can skip ahead taylor itinerary to your own taste but navigating through the british library on your own can be confusing and it's easiest to just follow the tour in the order. I've laid out to help you along. I've invited my colleague lisa. Welcome lisa hi rick. She'll give one exhibit to next after listening to her directions. You can pause the audio guide then restarted at the next track when you're ready to see the next piece be aware that even with the very best of directions museum going can be confusing. Exhibits are routinely moved. Sent out on loan or tucked away for restoration. If you're taking this tour with my rick. Steves audio europe app. Don't miss its latest features. There are zuma ball maps showing the route and each stop. These are viewable. While you listen twenty-second rewind button allows you to catch something. You might have missed or here. Vital directions the second time and the speed button makes me talk faster. Chipmunk style you can read the actual script of this tour and if you'd like more information on the spot you can download our entire guidebook on this destination with a couple of clicks those following this tour on their ipod rather than with my fancier app may find that my guidebook to this place with its maps photos and exhibit titles can make following this audio tour easier. Be flexible and don't hesitate to ask for help by showing a picture of an exhibit to a security guard who can point the way here in london. Many people speak english now. Let's the british librarian get started. Lisa take us in. Thanks rick the tour begins in the courtyard the entrance. You'll see a big statue. It depicts a naked isaac newton bending forward with a compass to measure the universe this naked newton symbolizes the libraries purpose together all knowledge and promote our endless search for truth the stepping inside. You'll find the information desk and other services. Our tour starts directly ahead. Climb the fifteen stairs to the entrance to the gallery. The room is labeled the treasures of the british library. Or the sir. John writ black gallery or sometimes just the treasures. The gallery is just one small part of this large complex. The extensive reading rooms. Where scholars do researcher upstairs. And not open to the general public entered the treasures room and let your eyes adjust. This priceless collection is all in one large dimly lit room. Oh sorry at least. I didn't see there. you're right. It is dim. The room has display cases grouped according to themes historical documents literature. Music science and so on our tour starts straight ahead so make your way to the far side of the room. Look for a set of displays on maps throughout our tour. Focus on the big picture. Don't be too worried about locating every specific map or scroll or manuscript mention enjoyed the whole exhibit and whatever's on display. Today start with the wall of maps maps. The historic maps show. How humankind's perspective of the world has expanded over the centuries. These pieces of paper encoded with information gleaned from travelers could be passed along to future generations. each generation built upon the knowledge of the last the earliest maps made in britain and europe featured only the small local world. They knew these early maps put medieval man in an unusual position looking down on his homeland from fifty miles up in the air. Within a few centuries maps of europe were of such high quality they could be used today to plan a trip. Within a century or two after columbus the entire globe was fairly well mapped including america. Well except for the area beyond the well mapped east coast out. There was the vast expanse of unknown land labeled terra incognita. When you finished exploring the maps move into the area dedicated to sacred text sacred texts early. Bibles brown's the cases. You'll likely see some old decaying fragments of parchment or papyrus. The writing is in antiquated latin. Greek egyptian or other dead languages consider the fact that many of humankind's oldest ratings were dedicated to spiritual aspirations often on display or some of the earliest versions of the bible. These include some early bound books with pages cold a codex start with the codex. Senate tickets this codex. Early bound book is from around three fifty. Ad it's one of the complete bibles in existence one of the first attempts to collect various books by different authors into one authoritative anthology. The codex is in greek. The language in which most of the new testament was originally written the old testament portions are greek translations from the original hebrew. Jesus didn't speak english. Of course nor did moses or isaiah or paul or any other bible authors characters. Jesus spoke aramaic a form of hebrew. His words were written down in greek decades. After jesus death then various greek manuscripts were compiled into anthologies like the codex sinaia us. These were then translated into latin. The language of medieval monks and scholars. Greek and latin manuscripts were later translated into english so our present day english bible didn't come directly from the mouths and pens of these religious figures. Rather it's the fitful product of centuries of oral tradition evolution and translation today bible scholars poor diligently over every word from these earliest known versions of the bible trying to separate jesus authentic words from those that seem to have been added later nearby. You may find another early bible. The codex alexandrine ass- it dates from four twenty five ad these too early bibles contain some writings not included in most modern bibles even today. Catholic bibles contain books not found in protestant bibles so there are several things that editors need to do to compile the most accurate bible. I they need to decide which books actually belong then find the oldest and most accurate version of each book and finally they need to translate it correctly. Nearby you'll find more early. Bibles along with other texts in another set display cases Ooh the art of the book. You'll see various medieval era books. Some beautifully illustrated the lettering is immaculate. But all are pinned by hand. Some are labeled bible's meaning collections of sacred writings others are gospels which specifically cover the history of jesus. There are saulters or songs from the bible and books of ours. Filled with prayers and inspiring bible quotes. What they all have in. Common is their beauty in both the calligraphy and the illustrations. After the fall of rome the christian message was preserved by monks who reproduced ancient bibles by hand. This was a painstaking process. Usually done for a rich patron. The bibles were often. Beautifully illustrated illuminated the most magnificent of these medieval british. Monte script is the lindisfarne gospels from eighty six ninety eight. The text is in latin the language of scholars ever since the roman empire the illustrations with elaborate. Trae serena interwoven decoration. Mix irish classical and even byzantine forms by the way you can read an electronic copy of these manuscripts by using touchscreen computers that are scattered around the room. These gospels are a reminder that christianity almost didn't make it in europe after the fall of rome which had established christianity as the empire's official religion. Much of your reverted to its pagan ways. People worshipped woodland spirits and terrible teutonic. Gods lindisfarne was an obscure monastery of irish monks on a remote island off the east coast of england but during that chaotic time it was one of the few of light tending the embers of civilization. Through the long night of the dark ages. it took five hundred years before. Christianity was fully reestablished in europe. Continue browsing both the art of the book and the sacred texts. You'll likely see some early english. Bibles you might find. Copies of the king. James version the wycliffe bible or others from the fifteenth sixteenth and seventeenth centuries. By fourteen hundred. There was still no english version of the bible. Even though only a small percentage of the population understood latin a few brave reformers risk death to translate these sacred books into english and print them using gutenberg's new invention. The printing press within two centuries english translations were both legal and popular. These bibles are written in the same language. You speak but try reading them. The lettering strange and many words are out of date and unintelligible. It clearly shows how quickly languages evolve the king james version so called because it was done during his reign has been the most widely used english translation. Fifty scholars worked for four years here in london borrowing heavily from previous translations to produce this work. Its impact on the english. Language was enormous. It made elizabethan english. Something of the standard even after people stopped saying the dow and fairly fairly recent translations are more readable using modern english speech patterns. They also aim to be more accurate based on better scholarship and being translated directly from the manuscripts but there are still problems trying to translate old phrases to fit contemporary viewpoints. Case in point our generations debate. Over whether the god of the bible should be a he or she if god is a woman then how do we explain the existence of hockey good point next. Turn your attention to the glass case along. The wall dedicated to early. Printing among the exhibits are printed pages from china and a famous gutenberg bible printing the gutenberg bible before looking at gutenberg's bible ponder the early chinese pages printed long before gutenberg like so much else printing was invented by the chinese sentries before the printing press in europe pictures of buddha surrounded by prayers and chinese characters were mass produced the faithful gain blessing by saying the prayer and so did the printer by reproducing it. The prints were made using wooden blocks carved with chinese characters dipped into paint or ink and pressed by hand onto the page. Now find the gutenberg bible from around fourteen fifty five it was so revolutionary because it introduced a new technique movable type johann gutenberg german silversmith devised a convenient way to reproduce written materials quickly heatley and affordably. You carve each letter onto a separate metal block. Then you can arrange them into words ink them up and press them onto paper. When one job was done you could reuse the same letters for the next job. This simple idea had immediate. End revolutionary consequences. Suddenly the bible was available for anyone to read this new technology helped fuel the protestant reformation protestants preached that. The written word of god was the ultimate authority. And now every tom dick and heinrich could afford a copy. Suddenly knowledge both secular and religious became affordable and accessible to a wide audience not just charge officials and the wealthy books became the mass medium of europe linking people by common set of ideas. Now move on to the adjoining room where you'll find several documents of the magna carta magna carta question. How did britain a tiny island with just a few million people. Come to rule a quarter of the world not by force but by rule of law. The magna carta was the basis for england system of law and constitutional government though historians talk about the magna carta several different versions of the documents exist. Some of which are kept in this room start with the document labelled the articles of the barons. It bears the seal of england's king. John in twelve fifteen england's barons rose in revolt against the slimy king remember john appears as a villain in the legends of robinhood after losing london. John was forced to negotiate. The barons presented him with this list of demands. John whose rule was worthless without the baron support had no choice but to agree and to fix his seal to it. A few days after jonah greeted this original document. It was rewritten in legal. Form known as the magna carta or great charter. Some thirty five copies were distributed all around the kingdom. This was a turning point in the history of government until then kings had ruled by god given authority above the laws of men now for the first time there were limits in writing on how king could treat his subjects more generally it reaffirmed the right of habeas corpus the notion that government cannot imprison someone without a legitimate legal reason. This small step became the basis for all constitutional government since then including ours. So what did this radical piece of paper. Actually say not much. Today's standards the specific demands had to do with things such as inheritance texas the king's duties to widows and orphans and so on it wasn't specific articles that were important but the simple fact that the king had to abide by them as law now returned to the main room as you pass the displays on printing turn left. You'll find display cases dedicated to science as well as the art of science science. Leonardo davinci's notebook the printed word spread religious ideas but it also helped disseminate secular knowledge. During the renaissance. Men turned their attention away from heaven and toward the nuts and bolts of the material world around them among the documents. Here you might find some by trail-blazing early scientists like leonardo da vinci galileo or is it newton pages from leonardo's notebook show this powerful curiosity his genius for invention and his famous backward an inside out handwriting. Which makes sense. Only if you know italian and have a mirror. Leonardo's restless mind pondered diverse subjects his doodles ranged from how birds fly to the flow of the arno river from military fortifications to an early helicopter and to the earth shine reflecting on to the moon. One person's research inspired another's and books allowed knowledge. Secular knowledge to accumulate galileo championed the counter commonsense notion that the earth spun around the sun. Isaac newton later perfected the mathematics of those moving celestial bodies. Now look around you. Nearby are many historical documents. The displays challenged frequently. But you may see letters by queen. Elizabeth the first thomas more florence nightingale gandhi and others. It's clear you could spend days in here browsing the collection but for now. Let's trace the evolution of english literature. You'll find english lit nearby. Start by finding one of the oldest works in the english language. Beowulf english literature. Ponder the copy of beowulf the first english literary masterpiece over a thousand years old. The manuscript is from one thousand ad but the story itself dates to about seven fifty in this epoch. Story the young hero. Beowulf defeats to ten months. Tres threatening the kingdom it may sound like video game but beowulf symbolizes england's emergence from chaos and barbarism of the dark ages as you browse through beowulf and early works. Think of how much. Our language has changed. This anglo-saxon epic poem is written in old english an early version of our language. Which is almost unrecognisable. Today as you ponder this and other early english manuscript consider the two thousand year evolution of our english language. Four out of every five english words have been borrowed from other languages brought to england by foreign invaders. I there was the language of the original celtic tribesmen from brundage times. Next came the latin. Speaking romans who conquered and colonized the isle of britain around the time of christ after the fall of rome. Around five hundred. Ad germanic tribes called angles and saxons invaded. They made english mostly germanic language the angles the island england or england next came the vikings from denmark around eight hundred ad. Finally there's the french speaking. Normans under william the conqueror who arrived in the year ten sixty six all these languages celtic latin anglo-saxon norris french were mixed together to of tongues simmered a few centuries Sounds yummy by around. Fourteen hundred old english had evolved into middle english the language of geoffrey chaucer. Chaucer wrote the canterbury tales. Find the copy of the canterbury tales. In the display case nearby this bestseller broke new ground. It was written in latin the language of scholars but in the lingo of the streets also chaucer's body collection of stories told by pilgrims on their way to canterbury gave the full range of life's experiences. Happy sad scillies sexy as well as devout late in life. Chaucer wrote an apology for those works of his. That quote tend toward sin. The rest of the literature display is a greatest hits collection from bronte to kipling to wolf to joyce the displease change frequently. You may see early manuscript by charles dickens whose novels were as popular in his time as blockbuster. Movies are today. Jane austen stories of nineteen. Th century women seeking suitable husbands have become equally popular. In the twenty first century the original alice's adventures in wonderland by lewis carroll created a fantasy world where it growing up rules. Logic were turned upside down. Also on display are superb works by contemporary writers. Making it clear that britain continues to be a powerful force in the world of ideas and imagination. The man who more than any other created the english language we know. Today is william. Find several documents about the man and his work in the free standing glass case nearby william shakespeare. This may be a bit ethnocentric. But i believe william. Shakespeare is the greatest author in any language period. He expanded and helped. Define modern english in one fell swoop. He made the language of everyday people as important as latin in the process. He gave his phrases like in one fell swoop which we quote without even knowing. It's shakespeare perhaps just as important was his insight into humanity think of his great stock of characters and memorable lines brooding hamlet to be or not to be. That is the question tragic. Julius caesar friends romans countrymen lend me your ears rowdy falstaff. The better part of valour is discretion and the star-crossed lovers romeo and juliet but soft. What light through yonder window breaks. Shakespeare probe the psychology of human beings. Three hundred years before freud even today his characters strike a familiar court look for early printed. Copies called folios of shakespeare's plays since shakespeare wrote his plays to be performed not read. He only bothered to publish a few but as his reputation grew bootleg versions began to circulate. Some of these were written by actors who were trying with faulty memories. To recreate plays. They had appeared in years before publishers. Also put out different versions of shakespeare's plays. It wasn't until seven years after his death that this complete collection of shakespeare's plays was published. The editors were friends and fellow actors. Some scholars have wondered. If maybe shakespeare head ghostwriters help him out on several of his plays after all figured how could a journeyman actor with little education have written so many brilliant masterpieces and he was surrounded by other great writers such as his friend and fellow poet. Ben jonson most modern scholars though agree that shakespeare did indeed write the plays and sonnets attributed to him now find the famous engraving of shakespeare. That appears on the title page. One of his published works. This is one of only two portraits done during his lifetime. Is this what he really looked like. No one knows the best answer probably comes from his friend. Ben johnson who wrote the introduction on the facing page johnson concludes reader. Look on his picture but his book. Finally turn your attention to displays on music. These feature manuscripts by classical composers and memorabilia of the beatles the beatles and others bach. Beethoven brahms bay. the beatles. future generations will have to judge whether the musical cortez. The beatles ranks musically with artists such as handel and chopin but no one can deny their historical significance. Look for photos of john lennon. Paul mccartney george harrison and ringo starr before and after their fame the rock band burst onto the scene. In the early nineteen sixties unheard of popularity with long hair and loud music they brought counterculture and revolutionary ideas to the middle class affecting the values of an entire generation during the globe. They served as a link between young people everywhere. Among the displays. You'll find the manuscripts of song lyrics written by lennon and mccartney the to guiding lights of the group. I wanna hold. Your hand was the song that launched them into stardom a hard day's night and help we're titled songs of two films capturing the excitement and chaos of their hectic touring schedule. Some call a ticket to ride the first heavy metal song. Yesterday by paul was recorded with guitar and voice backed by a string quartet. A touch of sophistication from producer. George martin also read the handwritten poem by young john lennon labeled untitled verse. Rambling depressed cynical but humorous. Is that a self portrait down at the bottom. The beatles memorabilia hangs alongside manuscripts by mozart. Beethoven schubert and others kind of an anti-climax after the fab four i know off and on display a work by german-born composer who found a home right here in london. Find george frederic handel's famous or a you the messiah. It was written in a flash of inspiration three glorious hours of music in two thousand four days. The manuscript on display contains the final bars at its most famous tune all they do and that's also a fitting end to our from bibles to beowulf to beatles through the british library. We hope you enjoyed the british library. Thanks to jeanne openshaw. The co author of this tour. If you're up for more london sightseeing. We have audio guides for the british museum. The westminster walk saint paul's end the city. Remember this tour was excerpted from the rick. Steves london guidebook co authored with jeanne openshaw for more details on eating sleeping and sightseeing in london. Referred this year's edition of that guidebook for more free audio tours and podcasts. End for information about our tv shows bus tours and travel gear visit our website at rick. Steves dot com. This tour was produced by cedar house. Audio productions thanks. Cheers bye for now.

europe british library england britain lisa hi rick John writ black gallery london Isaac newton Trae serena rome rick steves newton johann gutenberg shakespeare tom dick zuma Jesus Leonardo davinci
Classical Classroom, Episode 182: Fantastic Bell - Joshua Bell on Max Bruch's "Scottish Fantasy"

Classical Classroom

22:44 min | 3 years ago

Classical Classroom, Episode 182: Fantastic Bell - Joshua Bell on Max Bruch's "Scottish Fantasy"

"Hey, everybody, it's station in you're about to hear my interview with somebody that there's a pretty good chance. You've heard about even if you're not a classical music aficionado violinist Joshua bell in this show. He talks to me about the composer, max Bruch, and in particular this peculiar piece that Brooke wrote called Scottish fantasy as it turns out the fantasy is important part of the title here. But I'll let you find out why when you listen to the episode also speaking of fantasies, it would make our fantasies. Come true, if you would head over to I tunes or wherever you listen to us and subscribe to rate and review, the show, tell your friend's mom. Okay. And now a word from our sponsor. The holidays are quickly approaching and you're in need of a gift for the children on your shopping list. I can tell because I'm psyching Maestra. Classic CD's an MP threes with activity books are the perfect gift for kids ages five to twelve the fun and sophisticated and these recordings feature the London fill with storytellers guest, artists and music lessons with the conductor. Choose from over a dozen titles, including my name is handle. The story of water music voice wondered about that title, the nutcracker and carnival of animals that over to maestro classics dot com. Where you can listen to samples and save seventeen percent on your order with code classroom. There's a rumor going around that classical music can be Whitey toy d. But here in the classroom, we beg to differ. Beethoven faa. Aw. Prospal music is where we have to feel restricted or we have to act a certain way, you know. That's not going to be helpful going forward shaking with excitement. I mean, there's just so many parts of the opera PS me to play his favorite spot in the first one. Browns by started using those lex mega tires. How be classical music Rockstars because there's not enough of that in this business choosing really blogging demanding to my head. I don't change my voice talking to class. I'm playing classical music now. I mean, yes, same twelve notes. That's what's so cool about it. I'm Dacia Klay a classical music newbie. And I'm trying to learn all I can about the music. Come learn with me and the classical music experts I invite in to the classical classroom. Hello everyone. Welcome to the classical classroom. I'm dish Klay. And here with me today is violinist Joshua bell. He doesn't really need an introduction. But for the sake of formality among go ahead, and do it Joshua is the music director of the British ensemble academy of Saint Martin in the fields. He's a Grammy and Avery Fisher prize winner among many many other things he's put out an album of max Brooks work called Scottish fantasy. And that's what he's going to be teaching me about today. Joshua, welcome to the classical classroom. Thanks for having me. Okay. So this is gonna sound like kind of Aleem question to ask you to begin with. But I have always wondered about the name academy of St. Martin in the fields, which is the on samba that you play with them reporting. What is up with that name mouthful? And I remember growing up listening to classical radio is a kid. My parents always headed on. And it seemed like every other recording was the kademi of. Saint Martin in the fields with sir Neville Marriner. He turn I learned later. He founded the orchestra they came up with the name. It's I don't know exactly how it came about. He he put together an orchestra when he was very young. And they started playing concerts in. I don't know how they came up with the name. It's too late to change it now because everybody knows that you get but it is about full. May not be the best aspect of the orchestra is their actual name. But I think it's one of the great orchestras around. They could they can always certain it to like an acronym. What would that be as well? SM f-. Yeah. Academy sounds a little bit. You know academic. I guess you might say which is not what comes through when you hear them play. They're really great artists. And and I'm I'm so lucky to get to be their music director. That's there year only their second music director ever. We're just kinda crazy. Well, sir, Neville Marriner. Started them as a youngster young man leading them not as a conductor with a baton, but from the violin, and he stayed with him as music for fifty some years. So I'm not going to be able to. I don't think Bill to match as his longevity in that way. So that records going to stay in the in the books for a while. I think and then and then when he finally retired at the age of ninety almost ninety I they asked me to be the music director, so great privilege. Wow ninety. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, that's conductors live along. That's why I'm starting to lean in that direction. I'm it's of. Transitioning into being a conductor or semiconductor, you might save. You know, they they do have a tendency to live very long time. Yeah. This sounds like a wise decision. So. Tell me about max Bruch. So we can kind of put this piece in context when did he live was he all that? Good stuff. Max, bro. You might not. If you're if you're new Dacosta music, you probably know Beethoven Brahms and Mozart, and maybe Bach and some few others. Brooke may not be one. You know, though, some of his pieces are as popular as anything else in classical music. One of them is the violent concerto the g minor concertos played by every violence. Brooke was born. I don't remember this is act here. But in eighteen middle of the the nineteenth century, and he actually lived quite a long time into the twentieth century. So he kind of spend a great deal of time and lived through many composers from Schumann to all the way up through Debussy in the twentieth century. So he saw a lot of music, and but his violin concerto. He wrote when he was in his twenty s this, and it became so popular that he got he became actually really annoyed later in life because it was so famous for that that he said he knows like frustrated that people weren't playing his other pieces that he liked just as much, you know, one of his other pieces that I think is equally great is the Scottish fantasy and for violinists. We revere this piece, but many people may not know no Scottish fantasy. Okay. Yeah. So Brooke was German, but he wrote a Scottish fantasy. Why? Like what prompted him to to do that head. He spent a lot of time in Scotland or something like that. Oh, he had not actually spent. I I don't think he spent anytime Scotland before he wrote this piece, I think he had discovered some Scottish folk songs, and it was also becoming a little bit fashionable Scotland at that time for European, you know, middle European was sort of an exotic land Mendelssohn wrote few pieces and based on his trips to Scotland like Scottish symphony in the Hebrides overture. And they were certainly must have been known to broke the time. So is it was becoming a little trendy just like later on. You know, the French started writing Spanish pieces, you know, some rebel and ABC. And and others they became fascinated with the Spanish culture and some of the best Spanish flavored pieces I've written by French composers, including the violin concerto. The Lolo symphony Espanola's Lola was a Frenchman. So this idea of of writing outside of your natural habitat. It was something one found in classical music. And and it's kind of cool hint. Steve fantasy part of title. I guess. Yeah. It's it's sort of fantasy on what he how he he took these folk songs that he had which was sort of the building blocks, but then he made his own fantasy based based around these each movement each of the four movements is kind of based around the sort of folk melodies, but then he turns it into so much so much more. What was the source material? He was drawing from if he if you never been discussed land. I don't know. I don't know where he got the material, but somehow he had in his possession these songs, and I don't don't know the exact Scottish name for the mall off the top of my head. But he was clearly sort of fascinated by it and wanted to do something a little different. And and he made this piece even the orchestration was a little different from other violin and orchestra pieces because he included the harp. So if you listen to it, you you hear the heart as part of the texture of an orchestra, which you don't always with these kind of violin and orchestra works, which is a lot of. Fun for me. A lot of it is duets between me and the harp player, and it really adds to that fear of the peace right from the very first note and you hear the harp. Strumming sort of few narrow opening introduction before the violent enters on a long sustained note that kind of emerges from the fog. You might say it's quite a credit captivating opening. Do you think that he got the instrumentation? Right. I mean, he was imagining what is Scottish sound Joan like with the instruments that he chose or were they indeed Scottish, well, you know. I don't know if it's exactly Scottish. But he got it. Exactly. Right. Because it is. Now, it is what it is its own animal, then it's exactly to be in. That's interesting. So thing he. Yeah. So he, and so I wouldn't want to change a single thing. This is now with Scottish fantasy is it's like its own person. You know, like if you think about your your best friend. Did they get to genetics? Get it. Right. The gotta perfect. That's who that person. Yeah. You wouldn't want that person to be anything else? So that's how I feel about these works there. Become part of you and your friends. Are you guys I'm taking a little break from chat with Joshua Bill to tell you about our new websites. It's a classical classroom show dot com. And it's got some sue week. New features. There are free. Downloadable lesson. Plans study guides for teachers out there you can find all of our backup. You can connect with us. Leave us a message. And now there's a little button that says tip jar where you can leave us a one time or recurring gift if you wanna support the work that we do on podcast. And if you want a website that's cool as ours. You should contact our friends at new why they made the site for us, and it can make you can also help you promote it and for more information about new white just go to class classroom show dot com slash in w that's in as a new and w as in all right now back to my conversation. Yeah. Joshua bell. When you approached this piece Scottish fantasy this time around what did you have in mind like and like when you went into it and what came out differently? What surprised you in the process of coming back to this piece for the recording? Well, you mean went into the thing is I live with these pieces for so you start, you know, you learn a piece like the Scottish fantasy. I heard it since I was a kid and loved the piece for finding plate about fifteen years ago. And I went into certain expectations and things and then, but as you keep playing it and performing it. And even just practicing practice gym, something's sometimes you just think. Oh my God. The Sunday struck me this way. And I wanna I wanna I wanna play this way and starts evolving in the way, you tell the story musically changes. So even and even from the beginning of the recording sessions to the end, you know, experimenting with different things and in the end the product even at the end of the two days of recording. It's not exactly what I thought you know, that we entered the idea had when we entered in. That's the fun of it. And always interested when I talked to performance about individual pieces of music this because. Cruise like play the same pieces repeatedly throughout their lives in careers, and they kind of develop stories I found out that they have in their heads when they're playing these pieces and many of those stories they will not share with me. Yeah. Yeah. Like when I talked to Richard Burton pint, I've asked her about what story she has that she tells herself when she's playing different pieces, she's been like, no, well, I think part of the reason they get that answers because it's not always completely concrete and his music is abstract. So and it allows room for for and the story is always linear. It's not it's it's a different art form than movie. That's you know, or or even an opera where the story is more linear. And you can explain it. But it because of that allows the listener to kind of tell their own stories in their head and its stimulates each person in different ways. So so and that way. You don't want to necessarily define articulate exactly what you're thinking. And you don't always some of even more direct than that the motions. That's the beauty of music goes right straight to the emotions and sometimes skip some some of the translation from you know, from words and storylines traditional storyline. So so it's not always easy to to tell you the stories or the speed. Has your experience of playing this over the years changed can you should put that into words? It's not so easy to put into words. Eighty more than to say how have you changed as a human being since you were fifteen. In some ways, you're the same person, and and eggs actly. So there's certain elements that are just going to be there because that's who you are. But every experience you have in your life changes who you are as a person and affects who you are same with every performance kind of changes. And and even just there's room in the moment to to just pure folly. And being in the moment being spontaneous can happen in a recording session or in concert. So it's never same twice. And I like to think it's. Getting better still my instrument even physically still, I'm still learning how to play the instrument and more refined ways and. Different color, palettes from the that, I'm getting all of the instruments, which hopefully, I I'd like to think I'm still getting try to keep learning and get better. Do you have a personal connection to this piece quit legit to to like this piece of much that you wanted to record it? Well, certainly every piece you play as it becomes personal. It's like you put your soul into it. You expose your soul you connect with it. And it becomes it's a combination of your spirit with the spirit of the composer. And the piece that he's written you end up. That's why we're able to, you know, keep going to the concert hall and listen to a piece again, and again by different people because you get a whole different experience when they combine their themselves with the peace, and and so yes, it's personal on top of that. I particularly like the Scottish element. 'cause my father's side of the family. He comes from the Scottish descent. So I I always sort of resonates with me, but you know, everybody will play different. And that's. Some people might listen to minus. No, that's not the way. I wanna hear it. And some people say that's really strikes the right chord with me. And this is you know, that that there's room for many interpretations. And and this is mine, and and I've glad to put it down on CD for my grandchildren, have it documented. This this latest versions of the broken Scottish fantasy the concerto in the fantasy. Joshua bell. Thank you so much for being on the cost classroom. This is awesome. Thank you for taking the time. Hey, thanks for having me. All right, everyone that does it for this episode for more classroom. Goto classical classroom, show dot com. You can go on over there. You can leave us a message. You can find ways to connect with us. If you want to support the work that we do on classical classroom. You can hit that little button that says tip jar and leave us a little tip for a big tip. You know, whatever you feel like as always you can Email us at classical classroom show gmaiLcom, thanks today to the home of classical classroom. King FM Seattle where the deer in the anti play. Thanks. Our birthplace Houston public media. Thanks to the official tanning salon of classical classroom. Tessa tanning where you can tan in silence. Thanks to Joshua bell for being on the show to me for saying words, the most of all thanks for listening. We'll catch next time.

Joshua bell Brooke director max Bruch sir Neville Marriner Scotland Joshua Bill Joshua psyching Maestra Whitey Grammy ABC Dacia Klay max Brooks Seattle Avery Fisher St. Martin Max Saint Martin
Vienna City Walk

Rick Steves Austria Audio Tour?s?

55:49 min |

Vienna City Walk

"Vienna city walk welcome to vienna. Vienna is the capital of austria. The cradle of classical music the home of the rich habsburg heritage and one of europe's most livable cities. Hi i'm rick steves. Thanks for joining me. On a walk through the historic core of vienna or venus as it's known in austria on this walk. We'll laced together. That cities three most important landmarks. We'll start at the opera house. Ground zero vienna's international reputation for classical music. Next is the cathedral with skyscraper inspire the symbol of the city. We end at the half berg palace. Once the home of the mighty habsburgs now brimming with top notch museums. This is a great. I look at the city. Use it to get the lay the land in an overview of sites. You may want to explore in more depth later allow about ninety minutes for this mile and a half walk. Now let's get started as we explore vienna's intriguing past and the vienna of today. It's a laid back. World genteel shops inviting cafes delicious. Chocolate soccer toured. It's the city where civilized austrians continually perfect their knack for good living vienna. How to use this audio guide as you can see from the display window on your mp three player. Each of vienna's great hits has its own title and track number much like the songs of a cd or album. You can skip ahead or tailor your itinerary to your own tastes but navigating through the city on your own can be confusing and it's easiest to just fall of the tour in the order. I've laid out to help you along. I've invited my colleague lisa. Welcome lisa gooden. Tug hair steve's she'll give directions from one stop to the next after listening to her directions. You can pause the audio guide then restarted at the next track when you're ready to see the next site be aware that even with the very best of directions sightseeing a busy city can be confusing. Streets can be blocked off and scaffolding may cover buildings under renovation. If you're taking this tour with my rick. Steves audio europe app. Don't miss its latest features. There are zuma maps showing the route and each stop. These are viewable. While you listen a twenty-second rewind button allows you to catch something. You might have missed or here. Vital directions the second time and the speed button makes me talk faster. Chipmunk style you can read the actual script of this tour and if you'd like more information on the spot you can download our entire guidebook on this destination with a couple of clicks those following this tour on their ipod rather than with my app may find that my guidebook to this place with its maps for an exhibit titles can make following this audio tour. Easier be flexible and don't hesitate to ask a friendly local for help. Finding your way vote means where is now. Let's head into vienna. Lisa gotta started donka. Shane rick. The tour begins the opera house. Began at vienna's landmark house. The closest ubon stop is carl's plots start in the pedestrian square along the side of the opera house. From here you can take in the sheer length of this impressive. Green roof building get oriented. The opera sits on the busy ring. Road called the ringstrasse. The ringstrasse has circles vienna's historic core. We're on the south edge of the ring on our walk will be heading north into the heart of the old city. That is to the right as you face. The opera house got it for now. Turn your attention to vienna's opera house rick if he anna is the world capital of classical music. This building is it's thrown room at vienna's peak in eighteen hundreds. The city was the epicenter of european culture. Generations of great musicians flocked to vienna. Think of it haydn mozart. Beethoven brahms johann strauss senior. And junior. it's a star studded list of classical musicians. The opera house built in eighteen. Sixty nine is a symbol of that golden age. The opera's architecture is typical of many buildings. You'll see here in vienna. It revives an older style in this case. Neil renaissance notice the renaissance style arches over the windows in the classical half columns the sloping copper roof is like a french renaissance. Chateau nearly all of operas. Luminaries have passed through. Here gustav mahler and rijkaard strauss served as musical directors luchino pavarotti maria callus placido domingo. They've all sung from its stage today. The opera still belts out three hundred shows a year both traditional end. Cutting edge notice the giant outdoor screen where some performances are projected to an adoring public. Check the posted schedule to see what's coming up. The opera's interior is sumptuous. The chandeliered lobby with carpeted stairs is perfect for making the scene. The theater itself has five wraparound balconies golden red decor and a bracelet likes chandelier to see the inside. You could attend a performance notice. There's a box office under the big screen. Actually standing room tickets are surprisingly cheap and no one will shoot you if you want to leave at intermission. How boorish well then you can get inside by taking a guided tour. That ticket office is on the opposite side of the building. The opera house is just one venue and this incredible city of music. There's the world famous. Vienna boys choir at the half burke point that out later the vienna philharmonic world-famous symphony orchestra occasionally performs here on the opera house. Stage and music fans will want to visit called house their musique. It's just two blocks away. Notice the pavement under your feet in the sidewalk are star shaped plaques. These honor the stars of classical music famous composers singers musicians and conductors. It's like hollywood. Walk of fame but vienna style before we move on remember. The opera sits on the ringstrasse. That's the broad ring road that circles the old town. If you're interested. I have an audio tour of the ringstrasse. it starts right here from the opera tram. Stop now. Let's plunge into the heart of vienna lisa from the pedestrian square alongside the opera start walking west circling to the right around the big building. This puts you on the street called philharmonic. Stresa keep an eye out for the dark. Red awning at number four. This marks the entrance to vienna's famous. Cafes s-occer cafe soccer. this is the home of the world's classiest chocolate cake. The soccer tort. It's two layers of cake. Separated by apricot. Jam and covered in dark chocolate icing. Top it off with a dollop of whipped cream. The cake was invented in a fit of improvisation in eighteen thirty two by franz soccer. He was the desert chef of prince. Metternich the mastermind different who redrew the map of post napoleonic europe. The cake became world famous. When the inventor's son served it next door at his hotel you may have noticed the hotel. Soccer's fancy dorman. Since the cafes heyday many locals complained that the case of gone downhill. You may be surprised. By how dry they taste. You really need that. Dollop of whipped cream and the cafe has become pricey and grotesquely touristy. Still coffee and a slice of cake here and cafe. Soccer can be worth it for the historic ambience alone. Before moving on plants across the street in two thousand and three the first starbucks boldly open directly across. from one of vienna's oldest most loved coffee shops. Got in himmel sacrilege locals hated the idea of busy people guzzling overpriced flavored coffee to go from a paper cup but over time. They've come to appreciate starbucks. Easy chair ambiance. And its quality. Coffee the consensus. It's okay and there are a handful of starbucks in vienna but for the same price you can have an elegant and traditional experience in an independent coffee shop. The dreaded starbucks invasion stalled at the gates of vienna continue past hotel. Soccer at the end of the street is a small triangular. Cobbled square adorned with modern sculptures. Albertina plots Albertina plots on your left is the albertina museum. It's modern entrance is topped by sleek titanium. Canopy critics call it the diving board. The museum is worth a visit for chandeliered rooms and it's paintings from impressionism to modern art. The albertina is housed in a long tan and white neoclassical building. It's the tip of the hochberg policy. The sprawling complex of buildings at the habsburg emperors called home will end this walk at the center of the hochberg. Albertina platts itself is filled with statues. This is the powerful thought provoking monument against war and fascism. It remembers the dark years from nineteen thirty eight to nineteen forty five when austria came under the rule of nazi germany. It's also poignant reminder of the brutality of all war start with the split whitestone monument these are called the gates of violence standing directly in front of it. You're at the symbolic gates of a concentration camp. It's a montage of wartime images. There are clubs and world war one gas masks. A dying woman gives birth to a future soldier chained slave labors. Sit on a pedestal of granite. The stone comes from the infamous corey at the mutt house and concentration camp. It's just up the danube from vienna. Where one hundred thousand prisoners died behind the gates of islands. The hunched over figure on the ground is an austrian jew forced to scrub anti-nazi graffiti off the street with a toothbrush of vienna's two hundred thousand jews about a third died in nazi concentration camps the nearby statue with a head buried. The stone is orpheus. Entering the underworld he reminds austrians and the rest of us of the horrible consequences of turning a blind eye to the fascist threat finally behind orpheus stands the declaration that established a democratic austria in nineteen forty-five and once again restored the country's basic human rights. One more thing this monument stems on the spot where world war two bombs struck demolishing a seller and burying several hundred people alive austria had been led into world war two by germany which annexed the country in nineteen. Thirty eight saying austrians. Were wanna be germans anyway. But australians are not. Germans were never will be there quick to tell you that whereas germany wasn't a nation until eighteen seventy austria has thousand year heritage after the war. Austria lived through ten years of joint occupation by the victorious allies then in nineteen fifty five. It was granted. Total independence and austria was a free nation. Once again on albertina plots you may see. One of vienna's many traditional hotdog vendors stole over for a closer look averse versatile. Stan offers a variety of hot dogs pickled side dishes and a convenient place where locals to just hang out and chat the i usually pork. Sausage is a staple of the austrian diet. What's the best of the versed. They're too numerous to mention. Be adventurous brat. I is a generic term. That simply means grilled sausage. A bourne versed is similar to what we'd call kielbasa. There's also buck. First vice. I bind versed liver versed and much more generally that darker the weenie the spicier. It is the weiner we know the basic hotdog for vienna. Wien vena but the guy who invented the vena studied in frankfurt. Then he moved to vienna with his new fast food but he named it in a fit of nostalgia for his old hometown of frankfurter so only in vienna are venus. Called frankfurters. got that lisa got it. I enjoy your spicy anecdotes with relish. That reminds me when you order. Your first comes on a paper plate with a squirt of mustard called sent or with ketchup called ketchup or with curry ketchup. That would be very spicy. You can ask for your mustard either. Sweet seuss or sharp sharp. You also have a choice between bread or a roll prot- odor similar neither one of these resemble in american hot dog bun so to avoid looking like a tourist. Don't try to put your sausage. Your bread like a hot dog. Eat it like a local. Take a bite of weiner then a bite of bread as they say that you have two hands. Hey rick how does a buddhist order a hotdog. Make me one with everything. Had you ask for change change. Lisa comes from within also albertina. Plots is cafe to roller hof. Whether or not you choose to go inside. This is one of many classic viennese cafes in vienna. The living room is down the street at the neighborhood coffee house. It's another example of that viennese expertise in good living. Each coffee house has its individual character and characters. Admittedly some classic. Cafes can be a bit tired and shabby with famously grumpy waiters but most are welcoming for those who take the time to sit a while. They offer things that time has passed by chandeliers marble. Tables upholstered booths waiters in texas and printed newspapers. It's great for pastry or light lunch with local office. Workers enjoy the english language. International herald tribune and relaxing elegance for the price of a cup of coffee. Coffee in vienna are forever linked it dates from the seventeenth century. When coffee was introduced from turkey. There are several colorful legends of how was introduced during the time of the ottoman invasion back in sixteen eighty three but no one knows for sure in the eighteenth century coffee. Boom doesn't aristocratic drink in the nineteenth century industrial age when people were expected to work twelve hour shifts. Coffee became a hit with the working class. As well by the twentieth century the vienna copy seen became incredibly refined. Old timers. Still remember when waiters came around with a sheet of paper with various shades of brown like paint samples. Customers could make clear exactly how milky they wanted their coffee. Before you leave the square take note of the tourist information office here. You can pick up the free city map with a list of museums and hours. They have the free monthly program of concerts and other handy brochures facing the cafe to roller hof. Turn right and leave the square heading east up shirks gaza. Along the way you'll pass the tourist friendly cafeteria style. Restaurant called burger marked continue along furious casa to where it intersects with a busy pedestrian. Only street this is character. Stresa and carrington stresa. This grandma like street. Is the people watching delayed of this in love with life city. Unfortunately today's cartner strauss has become a little crass in shabby but the police is always bustling with shoppers and buskers. Turn left ahead up care nurse stresa going north away from the opera as you walk. Be sure to look up. Above the modern storefronts for glimpses of the streets former glory. In the nineteenth century it was lined with some vienna's most elegant shops near the end of the block on the left at number twenty six is jay and l. low meyer crystal founded as it says in eighteen twenty three it still has its impressive brown storefront with gold trim statues and the habsburg legal. If you step inside you can enjoy old world. Ambiance upstairs is a free glass museum in the market for some four hundred dollar napkin rings. Low myers your place. Continue a few more steps up. Kanter stresa to the end of the block. Then turn left on kodo viana gaza head. One block up marco. Wwl gaza straight ahead is an orangish church with a triangular roof and cross. This is the capuchin. Church home of the kaiser goofed The kaiser grouped in the church's basement sits the imperial crypt. It's filled with what's left of australia's emperors empresses and other habsburg royalty for centuries vienna was the capital of a vast empire ruled by the habsburg family. If you pay admission to go inside you'll see the fancy pewter coffin of beloved empress maria theresa who ruled for forty years from seventeen forty to seventeen eighty besides reforming the government banning torture and funding schools. Maria also found time to have sixteen children. The original practitioner of make love not war. She married her children off to europe's crowned heads to cement alliances her youngest daughter the famous and ill-fated marie-antoinette married the king of france. The kaiser grouped also has the tomb of maria. Theresa's eldest son. Emperor joseph the second who freed the serfs and took piano lessons from mozart. Joseph inaugurated vienna's golden age which was presided over by another kaiser grouped resident the emperor franz-josef who ruled the habsburg empire for sixty eight years until world war. One fan to the habsburgs. I wanna make a trek outside vienna to their summer home the schoenbrunn palace. This immense for satellite complex is one of europe's great sites. Well worth the trouble to get there. Let's continue our walk. The kaiser grooved sits in the corner of a square called neuer. Markt start walking north through the square. One block toward the fountain in the center of the square. No you're marked to the cathedral. Vienna's golden age in the center of neuer. Markt is the four rivers fountain. It shows lady. Providence surrounded by symbolizing the rivers that flow into the danube. The sexy statues offended maria teresa. While the empress wasn't busy making babies she actually organized chastity commissions to defend her capital cities. Moral standards from here. We return to cantor strasser. Fifty yards away. Lady providence's one bare breast points. The way as you walked back to canton estrada notice the buildings all around you most are fairly modern having been rebuilt after world war. Two half of the old city was intentionally destroyed by allied air raids winston churchill intended to moralize viennese who were disconcertingly enthusiastic about the nazis. When you reach kanter stresa turn left. Continue north down strauss stresa which leads to the cathedral and vienna's main square as you walk down vienna's main street so full of life. It's clear the city has bounced back after the world wars of the twentieth century but vienna's true peak. It's golden age was the nineteenth century back then. The habsburgs still ruled a vast empire with vienna as their glorious capital. As we've seen it was one of europe's cultural capitals. It was the city of fine wine. Exquisite art coffee and chocolates dress up balls and the good life composers came here to launch their careers mozart. Beethoven brahms johann strauss senior and junior whipped the mass into a delirious frenzy with their new dance craze the waltz architects redrew. The city's skyline vienna was a center of cutting edge. Science christian doppler studied wave frequencies the doppler effect sigmund freud launched psychoanalysis he focused on repressed sexual desires the unconscious mind and couches. The painter gustav klimt shocked the world with women in erotic poses and come hither looks by the year nineteen hundred. Vienna had two point two million people bigger than it is today. It was the fifth largest city in the entire world. Vienna sat balanced on the cusp between traditional old world. Elegance and subversive modern trends but vienna's belle epoch or beautifully age would come to a shattering end with the pull of an assassin's trigger in nineteen fourteen that launched world war one by now you should be approaching the cathedral. You're likely to see it. I as a reflection in the round glass windows of the modern building that faces it walk past the auburn station here. The streets bills into stephens plots vienna's main square dominated by the enormous cathedral of saint stephen Saint stephen's cathedral the center of vienna. The cathedral's fairly spire looms overhead worshipers and tourists poor inside the church and choppers and notch street entertainers buzz around the outside. You're at the center of vienna. Saint stephen's cathedral known for its four hundred and fifty foot tall south tower for colorful roof and for its place in vienna's history. It was built in medieval times. Roughly thirteen hundred to fourteen fifty in the gothic style with pointed arches buttresses and gargoyles. At the time it was a huge church for a tiny town it's sheer size brought prestige and attracted both church authorities and tourists to the town. It helped put fledgling vienna on the map. At this point. You may want to take a break from the walking tour. The church if you go inside you'll see it's impressive vaulted nave studded with statues. There's a marvelous carved pulpit the chapel. Where mozart was married and assorted altarpieces tombs. And icons i have another audio tour that covers the cathedral inside and out but for now. Let's continue our city walk. You're standing at the center of vienna. Think of the city map as a target. The bullseye is saint stephen's cathedral surrounding. That is the ring. stresa the grand boulevard. That circles the old town. The road marks where the city wall once stood on the south border of the ring. The opera house where we started this walk. The rings north border a few blocks to your left as you face. The church is the danube river. The ringstrasse contains the first district called a bit cirque outside. The city center is another ring. Road called the girdle that contains the rest of downtown beyond the girdle lies. The industrial sprawl of modern vienna about ten miles to the southwest are the famous hills known as vienna woods a popular playground for hikes and sipping new wine as big as greater vienna is for the tourist. It's quite manageable. Almost everything of interest to the tourist lies here within the ring. The cathedral and stephens plots are the perfect place to talk about. Vienna's colorful past wander around or find a place to relax while rick points out several sites in the square stephens pots a microcosm of vienna's history the cathedral linton stephens. Plot put the city's history on display for much of its history. Vienna has been the dividing line between eastern and western europe. The city was first occupied. Two thousand years ago by the romans. They built their fort right here where the cathedral stands today. In fact a few roman era stones are actually incorporated into the cathedral. They're part of the two octogonal towers that flank the main entrance. Roman vienna was the crossroads of europe where the danube river traveling west to east crossed the north south trade route through the alps after rome fell about five hundred ad. The city was invaded many times. By germanic barbarians hungarian magyar end mongol hordes around the eight hundred charlemagne the eastern part of his empire oester irish or austria in twelve. Seventy three noble family called the habsburgs claimed charlemagne's title of holy roman emperor for the next six centuries. The habsburgs would rule a vast and expanding empire around thirteen hundred. The cathedral was built. It convinced the habsburgs to move to vienna from their former capital in prague. The churches colorful roof sports black eagles fashioned after the habsburg family symbol the habsburg double headed eagle faced both east and west symbolizing their control over a far flung empire for the next page in vienna's history focus on the cathedral's north tower notice. It's about half the size of the south tower. That's because in fifteen twenty nine. Vienna was invaded by ottoman turks. Construction funds had to be diverted to the defense department for the next two centuries. Vienna was europe's best in against a rising tide of islam. The wars culminated in sixteen eighty three when two hundred thousand ottoman surrounded the city walls. Today's ring stresa. The ottomans were driven off for good as we learned earlier. They left behind bags of coffee. N vienna's first coffeehouse opened or so goes the over caffeinated legend. Vienna became one of europe's great cities attracting talent from all over the german speaking world. Wolfgang amadeus mozart lived here in the seventeen. Eighty s just a block or so behind the cathedral for the next century. Vienna enjoyed its golden age of arts sciences and the good life politically the habsburg empire was on the decline as rising powers like france britain and germany came to dominate europe but for the city of vienna the late nineteen th century was. It's cultural highpoint. One remnant from that time still stands on stephens pots. it's where cantor strauss hit stephens. Pots the grand soot-covered building with red columns. This fine neoclassical architecture sums up vienna's belle epoch mix of elegance and modernism as vienna entered the twentieth century. It was home to a man who would change history forever. Imagine this in one thousand nine hundred seven. This struggling young artists stood right here. In stephens plants he painted a watercolour. The cathedral's north tower. It was just one of many scenes. Poverty stricken young men would paint trying to make it in the world of art but after eight long years of frustration in vienna. He gave up and went on a different path in a different country. His name adolf hitler as it would turn out. Hitler and the twentieth century would prove to be brutal on vienna in nineteen fourteen. The habsburg archduke was assassinated in sarajevo in revenge. Austria declared war on serbia igniting world war. One austria was on the losing side when the dust finally settled the habsburgs were deposed and their empire was dismembered by the victors. The war left austria as small landlocked nation in vienna as an imperial city without an empire. A head without a body. For what happens next. Make your way along the right side of the church in the square to the right of the church stands placards with black and white photos in nineteen thirty eight. Hitler and nazi germany forcibly annexed now powerless austria leading into world. War two. The photos clearly show the war's destruction vienna bombs destroyed. Nearly a quarter of the city's buildings. At war's end the city was a mess like berlin. It was divided into occupied zones. Austria was declared neutral forbidden. Join either nato or the soviet union's warsaw-pact it became a kind of no man's land between east and west battleground of espionage through the cold war but slowly. The city rebuilt the churches colorful power roof though medieval style actually dates from the nineteen fifties. Vienna's ubon system was expanded in the nineteen seventies stephens. Plots was completely modernized. The modern glass building that faces saint stephen's dates from nineteen ninety. The building brings vienna's history full circle. It's curved facade. Echoes the shape of the ancient roman fortress which stood here two thousand years ago and notice. How the glass catches the reflection of saint stephen's blending the old and the new. It's a great photo op. Finally look around the square at the viennese people of today vienna's population is one point. Eight million and falling. The average viennese mother has only one point. Three children and dogs are the preferred child for many young professionals one. In every five. Austrians calls vienna home. The truly viennese person is an ethnic mix a habsburg cocktail many of their grandparents came from the eastern countries of the former empire hungary the czech republic slovakia. And so on. Today's vienna is certainly modern but compared with most big cities. The pace of life here is slow. After two thousand years of turbulent history vienna has settled down into a sleepy pleasant place where culture is still king. Let's continue on now. We head west working our way. Towards the hoff palace exit the square backtracking. A few steps are right rounding the curved modern glass building. You'll find yourself at the head of a broad pedestrian street known as the grubbing the grabbing this was once a grabbing or ditch originally the moat for the roman military camp. During vienna's nineteenth century heyday. This was one of the main streets in the nineteenth century. There were nearly two hundred thousand people packed inside the rings draw. The grabbing like other streets in vienna was dirt by the nineteen hundreds. It was paved with three noisy lanes of traffic around the nineteen seventies. It was turned into one of europe's pedestrian only zones today while only twenty thousand viennese live inside the ring. This popular promenade is as vibrant as ever take a moment to consider the scene history everywhere rebuilt after a war grand architecture fine cafes people enjoying life for me quintessential europe walk down. The grub. two blocks turn left on dora. Tayer gaza will sidetrip half a block up door a gaza to peek into three venerable eating spots and watering holes a cafe a buffet and basel dorte gossip sightseeing for your palate. The viennese appreciate the fine points of life in. Right up there with waltzing is eating. While cuisines are routinely named for countries. Vienna claims to be the only city with the cuisine of its own vienna features. Many eastern european specialties from the habsburgs former empire. a half block up dorte gossip. On the left you'll find buffet. Treas nevsky classic sandwich shop is filled with locals enjoying elegant little finger sandwiches and tiny glasses of beer. Here's how it works. I you pick out your sandwiches and choose a drink. Pay for them. Then take your drink tokens to the lady on the right. If there are no tables sit on the bench. Then scoot over to a tiny table when a spot opens up three different sandwiches and a small beer called v in austria. Make a fun light lunch. The favorites are guff. Pflueger labor chicken liver much is midst. Feeble herring with onions and spec mit i- bacon and eggs trish nevsky has been vienna favourite for more than a century. And it seems many of its regulars might have been here. Since the grand opening across the street from cafe treas nevsky toller. Bison bison is a uniquely viennese tavern kind of a cross between an english pub and a french brasserie. This one's a timewarp that serves simple and classic food all day long on nearly every corner in vienna. You can find a bicycle filled with poetry teachers. And their students couples loving without touching housewife's on their way home from cello lessons and waiters who enjoy serving hearty food and drinks at an affordable price. Ask at your hotel for a good bison head a few more steps up door tear gas to one more eatery find cafe elka. It's on the right at number six. This is a classic viennese cafe. With all the ambiance you'd hope for it's dark brooding trotsky atmosphere. It feels like a saloon with paintings by struggling artists. Who couldn't afford to pay for their coffee. Chalkboard menu well-worn velvet couches and international selection of newspapers. And a phone. that rings for regulars. Now slowly make your way back to the grubbing along the way browse bit on. Dora tare gaza as rick. Explains a little more about vienna cuisine wherever you end up eating try. Some of vienna's signature dishes. Venus nitzan named of course for this city wien. It's on every menu. It's a veal cutlet. Breaded and fried though pork is also common. These days goulashes. Beef stews spiced with onion and paprika. It's a traditional shepherd dish from hungary a former habsburg land another meet specialty is tough bits boiled beef for side dishes. There's plenty of starch. Potatoes noodles rice. Austrians do enjoy good salads. And if you're here in early summer there's one fresh grown delicacy. You've gotta try chicago white asparagus for dessert. The viennese classic is of course soccer tort. But there's also at full strudel the local apple pie toppin. Strudel is wafer thin strudel pastry filled with sweet cheese and raisins. austria's best known wines are white since the best wines are from small wineries and not exported. There aren't many names. We'd recognize but the quality rivals. French and italian whites white wine and german is vice. Fine you can order it. Sweet seuss dry token or medium hob truckin prost. That means cheers and wish someone happy. Eating offer a cheery gooden apetite. Now you've got me hungry. Don't worry there's a place to buy a picnic just ahead and the famous chocolate door just after that. Now you're tacking once you're back on the robin head for the big column in the middle of the street. The holy trinity plague column this extravagantly blobby monument is a sixty foot pillar of cloud. Sprouting angels and cherubs at the top is the wonderfully gilded trinity father son and holy ghost all are protected by an anti pigeon. Net in sixteen seventy nine. Vienna was hit by a devastating epidemic. The boo panic plague around seventy five thousand viennese died about a third of the city. Emperor leopold the. I dropped to his knees. Something emperors never did in public and begged god to save. The city finally pulled about a quarter of the way up the monument just above the brown banner is he the one with the under bite. Yes that was a product of the typical inbreeding of royal families. Leopold's prayer was heard by lady faith. She's the statue below. Leopold carrying the cross with the help of a heartless little cupid. She tosses an old naked woman symbolizing the plague into the abyss saving the city in gratitude. Leopold vowed to erect this monument. It became a model for other cities ravaged by the same plague. Continue west down the grubbing thirty yards past. The plague monument looked down the short street to the right. The street frames broke church with a stately green. Dome saint peter's church whether or not you actually visit the church right now. it's worth pointing out. Its interior shows up at its baroque best. After the plague of sixteen seventy nine leopold also ordered this church to be built as another thanks to god. Saint peter's stands on the site of a much older church. That may have been vienna's i inside. It's the full baroque multi-media package. The nave is oval shaped. It's all done in a rose and gold color scheme and topped with bombastic ceiling fresco. Throw in the ornate oregon the altar painting and the exuberantly carved pulpit and it all comes together in an overwhelming experience to add music to the package. Be there during one of its free organ concerts. Generally at three o'clock or eight pm on weekends. You can check the posted schedule. Continue west a few steps on the grubbing in the center. You'll find some stairs leading underground to to public restrooms. Public toilets in about nineteen hundred local chemical maker. Needed a publicity stunt. He wanted to prove to the masses. His chemicals really got things clean so he bought to wine cellars under the grab and and had them into classy. Wc's he hired a cutting edge architect named adolf lohse more on him later. Who refurbished them in state of the art modernist style while the original chandeliers are now gone. You can still see the finely crafted mahogany. The restrooms remain relatively appealing place. To do your business in fact. They're so inviting that they've been used for poetry readings. It cost a little to go inside there. you'll see both locals and lookie loos looking at these lose by los. You're losing a continue on the grab a bit more to where it dead ends there. You'll find a store called euless. Minal omg robin since eighteen sixty two this pushed supermarket has been selling top end deli products with all the gourmet fancies. It's a great place to assemble a picnic. There's also a cafe with light meals and great outdoor seating or visit the takeout counter there are good benches nearby for people watching while you munch from yulia smile turn left in. The distance is the big green and gold. Dome of the hochberg where we'll end this. Walk the street leading up to the hoff. Berg is cole marked call marked. This vienna's most elegant in unaffordable shopping street. There's cartier giora. Money gucci tiffany and the emperor's palace at the end as you stroll up call marked start daydreaming about chocolate soon. You'll reach the ultimate viennese chocolate shop. Demo it's on the right ogle the edible displays in the window. They change monthly reflecting current happenings in vienna. Then step inside. The room is filled with art. Nouveau boxes of choco dreams come true candied violet. Pedals cousins yuban cats tongues. And so on you might see items adorned with the portrait of empress sisi. Some ad agency is convinced. Vienna to make the enigmatic nineteenth century queen an advertising icon. You'll see images of her all over town. Some people are fascinated by her good looks her tiny waistline and obsessions with dieting. They're drawn to her horribly. Tragic life forced by circumstance to be a rich and pampered ruler. A kind of nineteenth century princess di cc. You'll learn ordered her chocolates from demo. There's also an impressive. Cancan of vienna's most beloved cakes. The cakes here are moist compared to the dryer soccer torts. You can sit inside with a view of the cake making or outside with the street action shops like this. An emblem with two ks. Good enough for the kernigan owned kaiser king and emperor. It's the same guy if you happen to be here at exactly seven. Oh one in the evening just after closing. You can witness one of the great tragedies of modern europe the daily dumping of demos unsold cakes that is tragic call marked ends at the square called michaela plots michaela plants. The square is dominated by the hockberg palace. This is the main entrance to a sprawling complex of buildings. once the home of the habsburgs. It's now filled with great museums. Steady the grand. Neil rococo facade dating from about nineteen hundred. The four heroic giants are all of hercules wrestling with his great challenges. Emperor franz joseph who commissioned the gate felt he could relate in the center of the square a scant bit of roman van. Allies exposed just beneath street level. Now do a slow clockwise pan to get your bearings facing the huff. Berg start to your left with the church over your left shoulder. Saint michael's church offers fascinating tours of its crypt to the right of saint. Michael's is the fancy loden plunk shop. They sell traditional austrian form aware including dirndls further to the right across augustine. Strada is a wing of the huff. Berg palace this house is the spanish riding school. it's famous white. Lipizzaner stallions give choreographed performances for the public. Now look further down augustina. There you'll find the augustinian church or habsburg weddings took place further. Still is the doro. Tam auction house. It's like an austrian sotheby's where rich people bid for exquisite art objects at the far end of the street are albertina plots and the upper house where we started this walk. Continue your spin to the right. There's the hot brick facade again then. Two buildings to the right of the hockberg is a more modern building now a bank. It's known as the los house designed by a low around the year nineteen hundred. It's facade is a perfectly geometrical grid of square columns and windows. Decoration is a crime wrote los. He hated the popular style of fake. Greek columns faked roman doldrums and statues of gods los stripped buildings down to their structural skeleton inspired by the american architect. His contemporary frank. Lloyd wright loest built this vienna's first modernist building its footprint forms a trapezoid making no attempt to hide the awkwardly shaped street corner. It's placed on the windows. Lack the customary decoration framing the top. So it sometimes called the house without eyebrows. Compare it with the hof burke just opposite. They seem to be from entirely different ages. But the ornate huffed berg and the barebones most house are from the same generation roughly the year nineteen hundred this jarring juxtaposition represents a showdown between the old world. And the new by nine thousand nine hundred emperor. Franz joseph was nearing the end of his sixty eight year reign he decorated his palace in a style recalling. Great empires of old the statues of hercules half man half god symbolized his own semi divine status mortal but ordained by god to rule. Los responded with his starkly different house across the street. Boring as the los house might seem today in its time. It was revolutionary from his front door. The emperor had to look at the modern world scaring him in the face. The emperor was angered by the lack of decor los relented only slightly by putting up the ten flower boxes beneath the windows but a few flowers couldn't disguise. The fact that the notion of divine monarchy was sharing vienna now with new ideas. Stalin hitler trotsky and freud all rattling around vienna. Women were smoking riding bikes and demanding the vote it was a tumultuous time ripe with change by nineteen eighteen. The habsburgs would be history. We'll finish up our tour where austria's imperial history began at the hockberg enter the palace through the main gate and pause beneath the rotunda. This complex of palaces is where the habsburg family lived except in summer when they stayed at the schoenbrunn palace a few miles outside the city today. The hochberg is home to several fascinating museums. Stand under the rotunda and get oriented. The doorway on the right is the entrance to the imperial apartments. Here's where the habsburg emperors once lived in chandeliered elegance today you can tour the lavish rooms. There's also a museum. On empress sisi the wife of emperor franz-josef you'll learn about her narcissism and struggles with royal life about her dieting mania and chocolate bills. And you'll learn about her assassination by an italian anarchist on the left side of the rotunda. Is the ticket office for the spanish riding school. And they're dancing lipizzaner stallions by the way. Why is the rotunda covered with nets with free audio guide. I guess you get what you pay for now. Continue on straight ahead. You emerge from the rotunda into the main courtyard of the hochberg. The centerpiece of this square called in der berg is a caesar statue of emperor. Franz the second he ruled in the early eighteen. Hundreds during vienna's heyday. Franz was the grandson of maria theresa the grandfather franz-josef and the father-in-law of napoleon imagine the christmas dinner behind. The statue is at tower with three kinds of clocks. The disc shows phase of the moon tonight to the right of franz. The second are the imperial apartments end to left or the offices of austria's current president. The role of the president here is largely ceremonial the more powerful chancellor lives in a building just beyond this courtyard the statue of franz the second faces the oldest part of the palace so turn around one hundred and eighty degrees and find the colorful red black and gold gateway marched through the gate. It used to have a drawbridge over remote as you cross. You enter the next courtyard. Which is the oldest part of the palace. This is where the original fortress here was first built. Here you'll find one of the hof berg's best sites the treasury or shuts comer. It's an on. Spiring collection of massive jewels sparkling crowns and other habsburg bling highlights include the crown of the holy roman empire charlemagne sabre and a unicorn also nearby as the imperial music chapel. Where masses song by the vienna. Boys choir. retrace your steps backtrack through the gate over the moat and back into the courtyard with the statue of franz the second when you reach their face franz and turn left pass through the tunnel. The tunnel has a handicap fe for cheap smack. Finally the tunnel spills out into a spacious area known as heldenplatz heldenplatz and beyond held plots or heroes square captures both the grandeur of the habsburgs and their demise on the left is the impressive curved facade of the new palace this vast wing was built in the early nineteen hundreds to be the new habsburg living quarters they were hoping to build a matching wing facing but in nineteen fourteen these optimistic plans changed drastically and france joseph's nephew and heir the archduke franz ferdinand was assassinated his death sparked world war one and the eventual of seven centuries of habsburg rule in nineteen thirty eight. When adolf hitler returned to vienna in triumph from he came here to the huff berg he stood on the new palace balcony and addressed his adoring throngs right here in heroes square. The building now houses the new palace museums. It's an eclectic collection from medieval armor ancient. Greek statues the rare collection of musical instruments has violence and keyboards played by beethoven mozart and others in hilden dot stand to avoid statues celebrating austrian war heroes prince eugene of savoy battled the ottoman turks and archduke charles battled napoleon follow. Eugene's gaze in the distance are prickly spires of the anna's hall. Several notch sites are nearby though they're not visible from here. The bird garden lies just behind the new palace. That's the lovely park with a much photographed. Mozart statue now. Locate the greek columns passageway. If you went through there you'd reach. The ringstrasse across the street are twin museums. The kunsthistorisches museum is one of europe's great art galleries showing off the vast habsburg collection. It has everything from italian. Renaissance to rembrandt portrait's to a tiny gem by vermeer the highlight for many is the world's best collection of peterborough eagle. The norman rockwell of the sixteenth century. Next door is the natural history museum. It has twenty million exhibits from meteorites to dinosaur skeletons. The star is a twenty five thousand year old statue of a voluptuous naked woman that venus of villain dorf but enough of museums. Even if you can't tell a habsburg from a huff berg. Vienna is a joy. Have a picnic in a park nurse a pastry and a coffee over a daily paper at a small cafe. Catch a classical music concert joy reid on a tram the city is eminently livable. The some of its luxurious past. Our walk is finished. You're in the heart of viennese sightseeing from the opera to the huff berg from chocolates to churches from saint stephen's to sucker towards the anna waits for you. We hope you've enjoyed our walk through vienna. Thanks to jeanne openshaw. The co author of this tour. If you're up for more sightseeing we have audio guides. Saint stephen's cathedral and a ring. Stresa tram tour remember. This tour was excerpted. From rick. steves. Vienna guidebook for more details on eating sleeping and sightseeing in vienna referred to the most recent edition of that guidebook for more free audio tours and podcasts and for information about our guidebooks tv shows bus tours and travel gear visit our website at rick. Steves dot com. This tour was produced by cedar house. Audio productions thanks outfitters and goodbye for now.

vienna austria Vienna europe soccer starbucks stephens gaza germany Albertina Vienna city berg palace johann strauss albertina lisa gooden lisa rick Lisa gotta Shane rick haydn mozart
Factstravaganza (ep. 78)

Your Brain on Facts

29:25 min | 2 years ago

Factstravaganza (ep. 78)

"Greetings braniacs WCHS I've got something a little different for you this week between last week's misadventure going into extra innings and the looming deadline of the super secret project. I didn't have the twelve to fifteen hours. It takes to research right record and edit a podcast but what I did have was a collection of something called Moxie moxie minutes sixty to ninety second long info bursts that I had produced on commission for a company that had a social media APP but they dropped me in the sort of stop returning emails kind of way so good better indifferent. I won't mention the name of the company but that left with a wealth of information on a variety of topics to share with you today before any further ado though I want to welcome our newest patron Robin Robin joined just in time to get a bonus mini episode about a particularly wild scandal at a nineteenth century Roman convent Patriot content stays on Patriot. It doesn't come into the main show so checkout patriotic dot com slash your brain lean on facts to see what a modest but sincerely appreciated donation would get you and now our feature presentation. It was a cat elected mayor of Alaska town the small town of Token Alaska some nine hundred residents thrown found themselves Dell's without any mayoral candidates in the nineteen ninety-seven election so the townsfolk wrote in a ginger tabby cat named stubbs or did they while while the story circulated widely it came out later that steps this election was actually a p._r.. Stunt while he wasn't the official mayor stubs did act back to sort of an honorary mayor he would meet with his constituents from his place sitting on the counter in the general store or he'd go next door to the pub where he was given a special racial CATNIP T- stores would sell souvenirs with substance face on them and they saw an uptick in tourism to the tune of thirty or forty people a day. Hey wanting to meet with the mayor are from the most interesting thing tell Ki- does to bring in tourists they host an annual wilderness woman contest where local women improve their physical prowess with games of strength like tossing firewood and hunting Moose and the July Moose dropping festival which is like a scaled buildup version of cow Pie Bingo in which Moose stone is flung from a helicopter every July and on lookers. Try to guess where it will land and why do we have the flavor blue raspberry. When raspberries aren't Lou outside of Blue Corn? You'd be hard pressed to find blue foods in nature. You don't see blueberries. Their skins are purple put their insights are green. So why do we color things blue. When we flavor them raspberry we have to go back to the childhood favorite freezer POPs Like Otter POPs and flav ice those glorious plastic tubes of frozen sugar water without which a summer is wasted manufacturers? I were having a difficult time making colors the corresponded to cherry strawberry watermelon and raspberry distinct enough to tell them apart. It got more complicated needed when the F._D._A.. Band Red Dye number two for causing severe reactions and possibly being carcinogenic it would make for better copy if there was some terribly terribly clever reason the food scientists went to glue next but the simple reason is they had a surplus of blue coloring on hand. They hadn't been able to use yet. We also have to mention the gold medal company that makes icy slush. She's who were also early adopters of Blue Raspberry possibly even the originators depending depending on who you ask why does airline food seem so bad. It's the hallmark of Lisi observational stand up comics. What's the deal with airline food to start with airline? Food has to be made in advance in the vast majority of cases and reheated food is never as good as food. That's cooked fresh but realistically at high altitudes where cooking takes longer in a galley that may be the size of a half bath. If you're lucky there would never be enough time to cook meals for dozens or even hundreds of people but the real culprit here is the air the dry air in an airplane clean cabin tends to suppress our sense of smell which is very important factor in our sense of taste likewise low air pressure and ambient noise further compact the way we taste our food suppressing our ability to taste both sweet and salty for food to taste the same in the air as it does on the ground the the airline food prep service will generally add up to thirty percent more sugar or salt to your meal. You can enhance your airline dining experience by I using a nasal spray to re moisten the passages of the nose or even noise cancelling headphones to block out the irritating background noise why aren't most beers and wines Vegan. You'd be surprised how many animal products are included in the process of making beer and wine. We'll leave aside obvious things like cream liqueurs that have dairy and need that's made from honey. All young wines are hazy due to tiny particles goals like proteins Tannin's and Phoenix. They're perfectly safe to drink but not desirable to the consumer so vineyards breweries use what are called fining agents these helped the particles to precipitate out traditional fining agents include Casey in a milk protein albumin given which is egg whites gelatin made from hooves and connective tissue and isn't glass fish swim bladder that that was the agent of choice for the Guinness Brewing Company but don't worry if you're a Vegan who likes a pint of the black stuff they're no longer using the swim bladders and there are a number of Vegan wines and Beers on the market today that use things like Ben Tonight a type of very fine clay or activated charcoal we'll to make their wines and beers jewel clear. Why are there no be batteries in nineteen twenty four a system of standardized battery sizes and names was developed by industry and government representatives based on the alphabet? The smallest single cell batteries were dubbed a and went on from there to be see indeed there was also a number six battery that was pretty commonly used suet was grandfathered in without a name change as battery technology improved and batteries got smaller new sizes of batteries were made such as AA and aaa these newer batteries arteries were the right size for the growing consumer electronics market so they Liam and hydrogen devices but single A and B batteries simply didn't have much for market and have more or less disappeared in the U._S.. They are still out there. Though a batteries were used in early model laptop battery packs be batteries are still sometimes used in Europe for lanterns and bicycle lamps. There are also F- batteries which you can probably buy at your local store. They're the big lantern batteries used in flashlights slights. Should you treat a jellyfish stained by peeing on it. The thing that's hurting you and a jellyfish. Sting is an immodest. That's the barbed venom dispensing sell in a jellyfish Stinger while you're rea- would help to remove the bits of tentacle human urine is to dilute it also contains salt which triggers that analysists to fire more venom into the skin all you're doing by whipping bring it out and peeing on your friend with jellyfish sting is embarrassing yourself and potentially making your friendship a little awkward trying to scrape away the tentacles says the first step could also be bad as the pressure would trigger the nomad assists as wood alcohol whether rubbing alcohol or say beer other other home remedies like shaving cream baking soda seawater and my mother's tried and true meat tenderizer also have no effect. Your best bet is vinegar. It prevents the maddest from firing off more venom so if you get stung by jellyfish poor vinegar occur on the affected area and have someone with gloves remove the singers with tweezers then counter intuitively you want to apply heat to the area not cold does the position of a horse's hooves on a statue. Tell you how it's writer died. There's more standing mm folk wisdom that you can tell how a soldier commemorated in a statue died by the position of his horses hoops supposedly one hoof off the ground means that he was wounded in battle to hooves mean that he died in the battle and all four hooves on the ground means that he survived every battle unharmed. This is purely folklore with no foundation in history. It's been passed from word to mouth and even written down as fact for for so long that it's difficult to trace its origin if you look at the thirty plus equestrian statues around Washington D._C.. You'll see that only about one one in three fits this set rule Richmond Virginia with its civil war general statues on Monument Avenue doubles down on on the folklore by saying that statues facing to the north are of men who died in battle and those facing south survived however five of the eight statues are facing east. How likely is there to be poisoned or razor blades in your children's Halloween Candy? It's a fear ear that's been propagated for forty years apples and razor blades poison in candy parents checking the wrappers to make sure they're intact or even taking bags of candy to local hospitals or police stations to have it ex rate. It may be much ado about nothing U._C._l._A.. Sociologist Joel who'll best looked at records for the period between nineteen fifty eight and two thousand eight and found seventy eight cases of foreign objects or substances senses in Halloween Candy so slightly more than one case per year in a country of over three hundred million people two of the reported cases it resulted in deaths but were later found not to have arisen from candies received while trick or treating one case was of a child who found his uncle's heroin stash and overdosed and the family then blamed it on Halloween candy another was of a father who poisoned pixie sticks that he gave out to random children to cover his tracks when he planned to kill his own children for life insurance money the first case of a sharp metal object intentionally put into Halloween. John Candy didn't come up until the year two thousand in many of the cases Joel best reviewed the objects were actually put into the food by the people who reported with them as a prank or a desperate bid for attention. I'm not telling you how to raise your kids but their Halloween candy is probably okay why why does coffee make you poop fifty three percent of women and nineteen percent of men report that coffee exonerates the battles. The scientific tiffin reason for this is still unclear. It's not that researchers have no idea they have too many ideas each of them as half right as the last last caffeine definitely plays a role but it's only one piece of an ensemble caffeine contains colon stimulating agents that create parasol astonishes the wavelike muscle contractions in the intestines that move things along we know about this increased muscle activity through the selflessness of study volunteers tears who agreed to the use of a probe during the study and to whom we owe our gratitude however decaf coffee also has a laxative effect and and other caffeine containing products like energy drinks. Don't coffee contains over a thousand organic compounds including multiple kinds of acid a compound hound called chloride genyk acid triggers higher bile production and higher production of gastric acid X. orphans in coffee both regular and decaff caused our bodies to release the hormones gasoline and coal assist Keinan which encouraged movement of the intestines coffee is also high in Magny Siham which can make people poop and there are yet more potential causes that will have to go unnamed for now. How did tootsie Rolls Candy Save lives during the Korean War tootsie rolls hold the distinction of having saved the lives of American troops during the battle of Chosin Reservoir during the Korean War and the entrenched Marines outnumbered outgunned suffering below zero temperatures and running out of mortar rounds they couldn't made it out of the battle of Chosin Reservoir credited the tootsie rolls for their survival and referred to themselves as the chosen few why I do phone keypads run one to nine but calculator keypads run nine to one in the late nineteen fifties. Bell laboratories was designing a push-button but an alternative to the old rotary telephone. The only device in common use at the time with a numerical keypad were adding machines early calculators so why didn't bell copy that layout one widely circulated theory is that bell labs reversed the calculator layout to create a small amount of strategic confusion infusion to slow down the caller both ensuring they hit the right numbers and slow down the numbers being sent to the switchboard. Bell labs actually tested a number of layouts from two columns two circles to strange shapes. The study concluded that the three by three version with one two three in the top row was the easiest people to master also when it came time to match letters of the alphabet up to the numbers putting one two three at the beginning made more sense to line up with the beginning of the alphabet but how did the calculator layout come to be bell labs contacted all of the leading calculator manufacturers news to find out why they had chosen to put low numbers at the bottom and high numbers at the top it turns out that decision was largely arbitrary. That was the way the first adding machine had been designed to. That's what everyone else did. Why are people so put off by the word moist researchers from Oberlin College in Ohio and Trinity University in San Antonio Ran Three different experiments to figure out how many people really find the word word moist unpleasant and why more than twenty percent of the population studied was averse to the word but not because of the way it sounds rather its association with bodily functions seemed to turn people off most whether they realized it or not the younger the study participants were the more likely they were are to dislike the word the more discussed the associate with bodily functions the less they like the word. Mois most of the participants who told the researchers they hated the word word chalked it up to the phonics to them. It just sounds ugly and gross. However people didn't show the same version two words like foist amd rejoiced that utilize the same sound people found the word moist most disgusting when it was accompanied by unrelated positive words it's like paradise or when it was accompanied by sexual words by contrast when it accompanied food words people weren't as bothered seems obvious obvious. No one wants damp cake. What's the difference between a mortician a funeral director and an undertaker generally speaking the turns funeral director and mortician are often interchangeable mortician means a person who handles the body in preparation for for a funeral funeral director typically means someone who owns the business and many people do both undertaker is an antiquated euphemism awesome that refers to someone who handles or undertakes all aspects of the Post death process. Now things get trickier when you get to coroner earner and medical examiner coroner varies widely from place to place it can be an elected or appointed position. Sometimes it's the local funeral enroll director for a sheriff's deputy. This is the person with the legal authority to order an autopsy in the case of a suspicious death in many areas particularly. If that person is also a mortician they may perform the autopsy but coroners are not necessarily required to be doctors or have any he sort of degree. A medical examiner on the other hand must have a degree in medicine but is not necessarily a forensic pathologist. Where does the word muppet come from homer. Simpson said it's not quite a mop. It's not quite a puppet. The other prevailing wisdom system is that the word is a Portmanteau of Mary Annette and puppet. This misconception has significant staying power because it was actually bolstered by Jim Henson himself in the early days of the muppets television career. Henson identified that as the origin of the word mother later he would admit that it was a nonsense word that he had made up and he just liked the sound of it but making it sound like a combination of two other words gave it validity the word muppet predates the muppet show considerably as it was created during Henson's run with the show salmon friends a series of shorts that ran from nineteen fifty five to nineteen sixty one on the N._B._C. affiliate in Washington DC where we see the first incarnation one of Kermit the frog who as Legend States was made from Henson's mother's old overcoat and a ping pong ball cut in half. What is a second cousin twice removed. Let's start with the easiest relation here your cousin. They're the children in your aunts and uncles. A second cousin is someone who has the same great grandparents but not the same grandparents third fourth and fifth cousins mean. You're going back that many generations for common ancestry for example. A fourth cousin has the the same great great great grandparents as you when the word removed is used to describe a relationship it indicates that the the two people are from different generations. The term once removed means that there's a difference of one generation for example. Your mother's first first cousin is your first cousin once removed this is because your mother's cousin is one generation younger than your grandparents whereas your two generations younger than your grandparents this one generation difference equals once removed twice removed with me that there is a two generation ration- difference. You are two generations younger than the first cousin of your grandmother so you and your grandmother's cousin our first cousins <music> twice removed. Why does orange juice tastes so awful after you brush your teeth the credit or blame here goes goes to Sodium Laurel Sulfate. It's a surfactant a substance that creates a satisfying froth by lowering the surface tension of water in this case in your saliva which allows more bubbles to form sodium sulfate also suppresses the tongues sweetness receptors and it destroys phospholipids pits these are fatty compounds that inhibit the bitter receptors with the sweet receptors out of commission and the bitter receptors in full force. Orange juice loses all of its appeal. Recent research also shows that the fluoride in toothpaste may react with the acidic acid in the juice but results to bolster. This theory are limited to be on the safe side. Remember the old adage beer before liquor. Never sicker toothpaste toothpastes before orange juice. Dead is the toilet seat the dirtiest thing in your house we naturally think of toilets is being dirty but not only is the toilet seat not the dirtiest thing in the house. It's not even the dirtiest thing in the bathroom. The Bathroom Faucet May contain twenty times the Bacteria Korea of the seat which is still only half as much as your kitchen faucet computer keyboards have been found to have a whopping four hundred times the bacteria of the toilet toilet seat and wipe down your cell phone that thing that touches your face because it can have seven times the bacteria of the toilet seat British researchers. I found that the average handbag is three times dirtier than a toilet seat with a daily use handbag regularly being ten times dirtier. How does that happen from setting your purse on the bathroom floor. Which is why you should never put it on. The kitchen counter in the kitchen. You're cutting board is a wonderland for fecal bacteria with two hundred times as much but it's still not the worst when Arizona researchers collected one thousand dishcloths and sponges from kitchens they found around each square inch of the surfaces contained about one hundred and thirty four thousand bacteria including Salmonella four hundred and fifty six times the number on on a toilet seat dishcloths sponges harbor these bacteria because they're not changed as frequently as they should be. How much did the creator of Tetris petrous make in royalties. The short answer initially nothing. Tetris is far and away the best selling video game of all time spawning remakes and ports since it was created more than thirty years ago. Alexey Patch enough device tetris in one thousand nine hundred five while working for the Soviet Academy. Let me of science in Moscow as a way to test the computer hardware he worked with at the time there was no video game industry in Russia which was still part of the Communist. Soviet be at Union Tetris was marketed internationally under Perestroika Mikhail Gorbachev's plan to open up the Soviet economy by dabbling and capitalism. The game was a huge success selling forty million copies but pageant off never received a ruble not one single kopek because has Patchett NAF was working for the government using their equipment when he created Tetris the government retained the rights to the game with no royalties being paid to him after the Soviet Union was dissolved in one thousand nine hundred one pageant Nov moved to the United States but the Russian government still maintain licensing rights to Tetris is it wouldn't be until nineteen ninety-six when the rights for the game past paget Naf who then set up the Tetris company making new versions of the game and seeing unprecedented success in illegally blocking Copycat Games. What's the difference between a symphony and an Orchestra Orchestra Orchestra is a broad term for any ensemble with lots of string instruments fewer than fifty string players is a chamber orchestra more than fifty is a Symphony Orchestra Chamber Orchestras Play Unsurprisingly Chamber music such as Haydn Mozart evolved e on the flipside a symphony orchestra can boast more than one hundred players divided into strings woodwinds bass and percussion as the name suggests they play symphonies more complex pieces that usually require at least two dozen different instruments think Beethoven Brahms and Wagner essentially if an orchestra is big enough to play a symphony. It's a symphony orchestra but what about Philharmonic. A philharmonic is the same size as a symphony but the term is used to set one ensemble apart from another such as how Brooklyn has vote the Brooklyn Philharmonic and the Brooklyn Symphony so symphony orchestra is a generic term whereas Philharmonic Orchestra is part of a proper name. Why does bright light make a sneeze. It's a question that perplexed even the Great Greek philosopher Aristotle Twenty three hundred years ago when he asked why does the heat of the sun provoked sneezing but not the heat of a fire it has nothing to do with heat but it is a recognized condition called phobic sneeze reflex or autosomal dominant compelling feeling Hugh Leo ophthalmic outburst or a chew it affects up to thirty three percent of people with two thirds of those being female and ninety four percent being Caucasian. The leading theory is that the solar sneezes might come from a glitch in the tri. jemele nerve also also known as the fifth cranial nerve. It's the largest and most complex paired nerve in the head with three major branches leading to the is nasal cavity and Shaw. It's a crowded place in terms of nerve signaling so it's not surprising that the TriGem no nerve would occasionally cross talk or get. The reflexes is wrong. Bright Light Causes Your pupils to contract and the signal is mistakenly sent to your nose as well. Why is it so much easier to remember music than information. That's heard or read. The first key is repetition. When was the last time you listen to a song even even one. You didn't like only one time. Due to the way our brains use networks to store and retrieve information it becomes much easier to find information that has is more associations think of each association as a route to the information when he remember a song you'll remember the tune the lyrics ext the singer's voice instruments etc just as it's easier to find a location with lots of roads going to it. It's easier to recall a memory that has lots of Associations Association's. It's also worth considering the power of rhythm and rhyme studies have shown that simply making things rhyme greatly aids recall recall both the number of beats and the rhyme provide clues to what the next line will be if the first two lines are. Mary had a little lamb who's fleece was white white as snow. You know you're looking for a word that rhymes with snow in roughly the same number of syllables or beats. This greatly reduces the number of candidates. Your brain green has to consider and helps you find the right answer much more quickly. I hope you enjoyed that smorgasbord of facts. was there one that you found particularly particularly surprising. Share it on social media and tag us as your brain on facts on facebook and instagram and brain on facts pod on twitter. Thanks for spending part of Your Day with me <music>.

Bell laboratories Jim Henson director Mary Annette Washington DC caffeine Joel Alaska gold medal Robin Robin Moxie Europe Ki official Lou John Candy Blue Raspberry
Lang Lang Plays

Here's The Thing

50:02 min | 2 years ago

Lang Lang Plays

"Here's the thing is supported by better. Help better help offers licensed professional counselors who specialize in issues like depression. They can help you through text chat hat phone and video. Here's the thing listeners get ten percent off your first month with Discount Code thing so why not get started today go to better help dot com slash thing listener supported W in Y. C. Studios Studios this is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing Rockstar is the wrong word by definition but classical star doesn't quite get at long longs place in the Pantheon. He's a serious pianist playing serious repertoire with a flair here. It's a Schubert fantasy fantasy in front of a sold out crowded Carnegie. Hall One's tempted to say he's one part. Glenn Gould one part Damn Kleiber but the truth is he's long long he and his signature Chubu far with the obvious choice to open the Beijing Olympics watched by four billion people and for President President Obama to invite to play at the intimate White House dinner for the President of China as long long takes an obvious joy in his art and his fame but both are hard won a musical prodigy he was is the son of two talented artists forced to abandon their dreams by the cultural revolution. Just a few years after he won a national competition competition at the age of five his father abandoned everything else in his life to focus on his son's talent. They moved together to Beijing long long one so many contests that that he was offered a spot by the Curtis Institute of Music in Philadelphia his father moved with him to America to all that vicarious ambition took. It's toll on their bond but over the years it'd be turned where very close our conversation was taped in front of a live audience. WNYC's greenspace. We're really a much better than when I was a nightmare ninety same level. We're really it's getting getting closer somehow because we're not living together so you know way you know. These tins makes beauty right so so that's how exactly happened ah his mind he must have a kind of mixed feeling the euphoria of you having made it to the degree you've made it and at the same time he's not around you you. I know that if I was your dad I'm obsessed with my kids and if I was like your dad and I was instrumental and influential in helping you become what you became that all of a sudden you're like like Okay Dad. I got this and you're gonNA move out on your own. I'd be like wait no my son. I WanNa live with you forever. It's Romney He. What does he do with himself. Now that you're not living together he's actually he's helping me a lot in China back home and then he's also teaching teaching a lot he he likes to helping the next generation of musicians and and he himself was a musician he played are who the Chinese valvoline so oh that was like circus bans. He was an air force band but yet before it was in a circus man yeah yeah but the US Roman desalvo is very beautiful. It's like one of the most charming us from from Asia and it's a very tasteful has a really beautiful taste and and any social instrument always make you cry out yes so so sometimes I mean. My father made me cry. Steve defriend reason crying because he broke out. What is it called again. Are who are who are more like that yeah. I'll get my Chinese prince eventually by the time we're done but then you your country your native country is very driven by competitions and international competition. They put a tremendous emphasis on that correct. Absolutely the best way to make career were meaning commutations mutations which is the truth especially doing their time because otherwise nobody will discover you so we we we have to to go out for international competitions and to a win prizes so being number one is kind of became a Emoto my early career then of course after. I landed here I had this teacher a great pianist Graffman who who's also quite different friend comparative to other academic professors because he's so into a real career rather than short-term being you know price as we nurse so he discouraged me to competitions and I was like wow really did he say why he said you're too crazy about being them rely and you're not really focus on what you should be learning repertoire and to do on to become a great musician or are you want to just win win and I said Oh I said is not the same as what was it around. I said if I don't win a prize. I'm going to become a great musician. He's an Oh okay. That's the Ron or standing you have and especially he's alive. Nile me every time I go to library in in Curtis and then I start looking over a combination forms among Clyburn Chopin Schakowsky and take it out and then I'm thinking thinking to view the form and I saw I owe me next to me. Hey what are we doing bad boy just working on your Brahms Piano Concerto rather than and you know few in the form trying to be crazy number one somehow it was like okay. Let me go back to your when you're young. You won your first companies. When you were five correct. Yeah I mean that's what I was kind of like Shenyang Yeah. I was like kind of a professional competition person. You know American advice vice you less combination now. Let's bother you skip to that but what what fascinates me is the emotion and the feeling behind that kind of work when you're five years old if you can recall. Are you sitting at a piano and it's pressure and it's tense and it's like you have to pass a test. That's a competition and you're there's. There's kind of a tight feeling you have your or. Are you enjoying yourself when you're five years old. One thing good about commutation is that is kind of pushes you to play better than you're normally does. Because you try to play without wrong notes you will try to be hundred percent and kinds of trade on on what you do but also the same time. If you are too serious about combination you lose your soul in a way that you are afraid to do something wrong and as you know in art sometimes when you really do something unique. You're actually not really on the page you are. Actually we're doing something but that that is a really great moment so so in a way it's hard to say it's hard to say but I kind of enjoyed droid it because sometimes I lose. Sometimes I win is encouraging me to do better and actually I learned more than mm-hmm than just playing because I see others playing and I'm an eye while they're good. I ended up catch up so this is a good good vibe. It's funny to see you of all people and you watch another five year old kid by and you're like damn. He's good. I couldn't do that when I was a competition you. You were right now challenging everyone to a duel what was missing in your childhood. Did you wish you had more of video games. Uh More Morris Pours more free time free time yeah yeah but no eight thirty six. You can have more free time I want so is Indiana kind of okay postponed and yeah yeah yeah but but in a way that I wished I may have a little bit more more fun time. You know two maybe less pressure. I would say yeah yeah. Did your dad say ED. I'm sorry that it was so tough and I'm so paid while on the he never the best action he was let yourself know your stuff. When I'm I'm not gonNA handle it anymore. I think that's still the way that he passed the management on all right right right and now he's off. My mom is an important cause of you are going. Oy and then you have a nice photo. He likes to have some nice photo. Your mother's doing a lot of traveling with your father. What your mother's answer with all the trouble just one Martini is what her program. She does come in Handy if she has this natural someone of a you know she's just never get tired. She's incredible. I think some of my energy from her eyes are always like this but before she star travel with me she always sleeps really early like already tainted Kameri healthy but then she now means trouble with me for few years already and now she's never sleep before three three are a to at least but she looks better before so I think the music therapy you know. I think she's just everywhere every time I play something. Something's better corrupting influence on your own mother. Is there a piece you play. That is exceptionally challenging. He was the one that even you every time you play a new piece where there is a pack meekly easy or difficult who's always a new story to tell and somehow it's not all about you know play. The note anymore is growing up a pianist so more about how to bring those music to life again and into different interpretation so therefore for every pieces you have to focus and in a very different style of course but I wouldn't say this piece I just kind of. I don't need to care imagine that will come out in a way no way you you have to really focus and to concentrate so that's why in in this new album the piano book is the same thing there are many pieces casino be pretty simple but once you start to look into those pieces and you're those are master pieces is simple. Maybe technically simple but if you want to make real you know music out of it. Did you have to be focused and to play everything in your mind to you know to make it work. Yeah there of course is my first. slip up here. which was that you brought up your book before I did? I'm sorry which is no not which is a bad hosting on my part. I I should have mentioned that you have your new book out the Piano Book and the CD which I have and one thing I do which is a silly AH preoccupation as I go to an itunes NHS or any kind of a download service right and look and see the length so plays than modern ninth fourth movement the longest and the slowest the most tortured fourth moving and you do Clarita loon you squeeze the hell out of that. You really play the very long yes luxuriate clear deludes why I think you know after getting older things going. It'll be even longer. I don't know are the other day. One critic said you know from the Kurdish loons the way I I played I think long on police Goldberg with a two hour and thirty minutes and I think that's kind of racing to say I'm not trying to figure out how live GonNa play that piece but I you know I just want to enjoy the moment and I I want to make sure that I heard everything from that piece. They have another question for you. That of course we have a piano. Here's her what'd you just suggestion. Only don't feel any pressure. It's there in case feel. Feel inclined to this way of you. Know you inviting someone to play there. There's one of my was was set the birthday of my and so he invited me to his house and he said you know I know today's your birthday probably you you will not now play today but I just want you know also my mother's Burston pressure so I played high fevers. Also I heard was public south and there's a laker reach lady in London always reminding him for tea but he always has something to do. We deny have time and there's a family he came and then the ladies like we're Su you did. Not You might my pillow today. Billy Billy Joel did our show and Billy said that that everywhere he goes house. Obviously a considerable number of people have a piano in their home and he said everywhere he goes there like billy do you mind just has to one quick tune and everywhere he goes. It's really play Christmas carols at the Party. Do you find the same thing to our people constantly. You saying they do different we now. They say my traveling. Oh so to need a place to practice. I'll put a anytime twenty four hours. I have to Hebrews okay myself. Okay okay I got it. I got it now before we get to some other subjects. Have I've got a lot of questions here. Would you be gave us with some little yeah plan I will play a one off the piece from regarding. I don't know why but I start it will come to you it talk it thank you thank this is ball's emily from and the movie Emily Three Nice Nice movie the describe. How did the piano book come about. WHOSE IDEA WAS UM? I always wanted to do album like this. Because when I was a kid I barely find the professional musician recording writing pieces for these are Cherney etudes are Clem Anti Sonatina or Mozart so not Tina or some some of the piece which you see there be the beginners piece but those are the pieces. I love the most when I was a kid and in those those are my best friend end sometimes is now best friend. Sometimes after practice become worse friend somehow sometime they WANNA kill them. Eh Indiana of the day you know those are the brandon butter made a pianist to girl so so therefore I wanted to to recover something which can be appreciated by every person who loves piano so that's why we called the album the piano album you know and this is for Deutscher and it's already released because I have on my phone I what was worth it believable. Thanks I hope it's Nice feedings and and don't always condominium police I did was I five now when you when you when you you're leaving very shortly in the next few days to go on a tour and you're GonNa have a you're going to Rome going onto the two Korea Japan do now when you go on these trips the first thing that comes to mind that you grew up in a communist China and of course Americans have their own you know unreliable images of China and what what goes on in China. I don't think the quite sure but for me when I'm curious about is how did the Cultural Revolution in China. Impact your parents wouldn't. There's an impact on on your mom. I think there are cultural evolution of this is from their generation wasn't there but certainly gave them incredible incredible kind of I mean openness to to the next generation. They won their kid. You know to to to be a citizen of the world and the way because they kind of missed two years of time to not connected to to the world and so that that's why my generation of Chinese kids may not kids anymore very trying to learn piano and to to get connected to the world of course being Chinese but also so a world citizen some like the our mission this bridging a the culture together. This is your home now. In New York Work Call New York home now moved to New York in two thousand seven after ten years in Philadelphia since ninety me salmon and Curtis studied there and then I was waiting to earn more money to for apartment here so Goin' oh and work since two thousand seven so that's why I moved here and one I came to America in ninety six I was it's just a fourteen and and I thought it would New York is such a CD with the whole world behind so I always wanted to you. Come here to be part of this is the cultural scene here is obviously very real. New York as a cultural capital apple when other great cities but maybe not as much as other cities with no thought of Paris. I actually do have a a new home improvement. I fully expect so you read it. It'd be like Beijing New York. Peres like a the the perfect triangle New York Beijing from so when you when you travel the world are there halls roles that you play in or there are people that you on Sambas that you play with that. You really get excited about like we're water among your favorite spaces to perform it. I knew that the Acoustics Knicks are very much of an issue because being on the board of the filter Monica they're going to be dynamiting David Geffen Hall very shortly the next year or two to be geffen whole what's a space that when you perform you just love the sound that space I mean there are many beautiful holes in the world and of course you have Carnegie Hall here at Boston in Symphony Hall. It's really amazing sound and you have the moving forain concert house in Vienna and one one of the very beautiful Luke like this beautiful look is the Royal Albert Hall in London. Maybe dishonest not great but looks great can't do for DVD recording live streaming plays and but it's really interesting views for pianist where you normally play on the side right so so we never really look into audience somehow I mean if you want to do is he's right in Arbor Hall Ron Right so era words so first time I felt really nervous service when I start playing Mozart so delicate and I see some wise we had like Oh. This is only downside. I'll play the roundhouse and I'm thinking about chilliest. I read you know laying. Wow that's tough. I'm with you at Man School Music. I told you about the Vince story I said we're in central park and you're playing a rhapsody in blue and you're there with the Philharmonic with Alan and it's the concert in the park and where there's obviously we're the reverse you'd be facing the other way and you're playing the piano and you get to this with the most tender and the most beautiful the most gorgeous moment in that soft soft piano part of rhapsody in blue and you get to the end of the keyboard and you took this nanosecond to look at the audience of course. I'm projecting here and you get to the end of the piano and you look at the like Doc. You really love. You really crazy about me when I do this when I do this to this piano. You go crazy don't you. I know you do one hundred here. It's me here with you and I said that he goes exactly. That's him him. That's what he does a the great pianist long Lana. He took his first lesson when he was just three years old. You know who else got his start at three permanent playing on a toy violin in his bedroom room. I love the sound of the Violin. I heard under radio and I said that's what I WANNA do simple. That's what I wanted to any. There's no explanation you know. Everybody has a different thing that grabs their imagination and the violent sound was that and I think it was high it so he was pretty good for grabbing the imagination Russian. My full interview with Issac Perlman can be found at here's the thing dot org long long on music that moves him coming up Here's the thing is supported by better. Help better help offers licensed professional counselors who specialize in issues such as depression stress and anxiety. Hey you can get help through text. Chat phone and video sessions can start in under twenty four hours. Here's the thing listeners get ten percent off your first month with Discount Code thing so why not get started today go to better help dot com slash thing simply fill out a questionnaire nair to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor better help dot com slash thing. I'm claiming about inhale and I'm here to tell you about the openers project the new podcast from WNYC studios in W CULEX are in which people share stories about the classical music that gets them through that lives people like threat to San Menendez Benda's musicians John Batiste witness Alice goyal girlfriends. I mean all too so very own Alec Baldwin. It's taught mix tape part sonic love letter kind of like a daily musical musical journey and other human lives. Listen for free wherever you get your poke cost and sign up at openings protect. Dot Org I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing long long had barely hit puberty when he and his father landed in Philadelphia from Shenyang the Curtis Institute of Music awarded long full scholarship but teenagers still need a high school education. I still remember my first day. If it had alpha in high school and I went into the class and they say so you introduce yourself and I said yeah I'm I'm playing piano. I come here to to study daddy classical music and everybody look. I'm east either seeing alien. You who what as I most hard are heard about that guy guy he. He's dead for many years while this is something you've been in a bubble. Oh we also record chapstick. I don't know that China did not know chopstick. I know topsy but so so so so the by me that my career would be over yeah so so one day you made them backstage often officer. There's a piano they were the rehearsal for two minutes and they can't stand anymore though they owe came out because they just couldn't listen to symphony and they say this is a piano there. Can you play h have steak and I was so I don't really know and then they showed me and I started but from that moment aren't we became really good friends. There's also a culture clash. Is Kind of you know we've been through that point out and then. I realized you know one day. I should help my friend and classmate to have a bit of music inspirations in the school. So therefore ten years ago we found it the denominator national foundation in New York and now we have almost sixty schools and I also want to thank but also I want to have this opportunity to Arctic because from the first time when we played concert Alec was to host already and then are- every every fundraising time he's always there and he's so so don't say no to you. Thank you know we really appreciate your call so the Foundation Bennett existence for how long now ten years ten years and sixty schools in the US around the world grow US yeah. How would you say to the extent that this is possible because I'm always quick to to undervalue or under a emphasize the American experience if you will but you are prodigy obviously there's not GonNa. I'm dead at the piano since you're five years. How much would you say the United States and in your experience of living in ended states helped to crystallize some of your town so you're a very lucky. I had this best teacher in a world guard Graffman so Curtis Curtis Peop- basically became a lifetime mentor to me and so because this this is quite important. There are many schools many different teachers UNIDO find someone who's having a great knowledge but but also fits your style way. Gary is absolutely the right one because he told me so much about different culture learning learning piano. This is not just playing the note you have to learn the culture and you have to learn the history you need to learn their culture roots folk music and somehow you're learning the culture of the world and you really need to dig into it and then I think the US it's a it's it's a really have so many different neighborhood. If you WANNA find more European neighbourhood like Germantown under the French quarter or you know so we always find people from different culture and they can share their culture of you and I still remember the first few years it was difficult for me to understand the culture and then Gary found a wonderful teacher who told me Shakespeare then after reading a few wealthed books than I starting to understand the western classic music you know the relationship between the music to our theme theme two novels to you have to have the surroundings and then of course not only. US is important. You also need to go to a Europe because of some of the greatest composers that go into Moscow and Peter Spirit going to Vienna go into Benin Humber Perez and or Madrid to get into the European culture now. What does a conductor have to offer you you this does at your level. When I was a teenager I had many great live experience with I'm Dr Snake Salish Mozelle and like my grandfather they're like totally different generation and from from a totally different time and so they told me how to understand Beethoven Brahms how to understand you know no way that is hard to who is playing in the schools but this is like face to face. They show you the feeling like they they basically even though Oh sometime they don't seem really well. They can really show what they want and those are kind of life experiences and this is something that I'm so treasuring because some of those master's already passed away and I still have a beautiful memories of my first time meetings about show our Mozelle and this is just tremendous experience for me name if you can't a couple of of conductors who you really love working yeah absolutely Gustavo. He's my it gray buddy. I I love him. We just played yes they before your stay away and then would you be to a number two and also do. I love the new conductor burning ramonic- career approach Inko which is going to be starting with Bernie Infield this season and of course enough to be Mehta he showed me oh the tricks what harvested with him the Rock Concert Oh and also number. He said this on is not good enough. I said why is that so so what do you think he said Yeah. I play with Arthur Rubinstein. He didn't take this so my source told me I don't know how to do that but he did like the. Are you still learn so here's the thing you know. Sometimes you need to a master class and you'll learn a lot a lot of things in that class and then afterward helps you a little bit of a few more weeks but if someone's someone really good real master you will hear a master class and that class will carry at least another ten years and every time mhm you'll think about you know what he or she told you on that that class is not just about how to make music but it's a really the way how are think about music on how you connect with your personality you know to the composers and how are you breathing your imagination into the music and how are you going to develop your next ten years so they basically make you think much more than we are. Few musician can really do that and they really brings you to think much deeper and to think about in a very different concept and I still remember working with Maestro Nicholas Hannam core I'll mold heart and of course I played many times concertos but that lesson I played He showed me something that I never seen Mozart. Come be described orientated in their way and that changed the whole time you you basically think Oh my God what I did was wrong and I'm going to relearn everything so some musician position have the power to really restart. You'll thinking of everything. Are you going to tell us what he said about Mozart aw love or is that a secret that an industry secret then another. I I play a little bit tougher. Now would be the perfect time for that. It's yeah it's a little bit hard to to to describe because it's a quiet. You don't need to describe it. I've got to of Asians from the twinkle twinkle variation just a couple more. was there a moment in your life. I mean I know I asked these sappy questions but it was a moment of your life when you saw it. I really really a pretty good at this like. When did you realize you were becoming. The person that you became happened few times yeah because I it happens says and then you'll figure and stuff. You know it's kind of like that so why I thought I really don't have tenant and I thought I'm going to give gave up and then somehow Y Y I mean this was going on in your life that happened when I had a professor who did not like me and she fired me and I'm so bad I fired even imagine this this this really and the she told me that you will never become a pianist so yeah yeah so so you call her before every concert. I I know I guess so scared because I retire one an addition in Concentra- she's sitting I roll because she's professor you know so I had so many nightmares because of her anyway so but but then I and then the first time I thought I'm pretty good is that when I won the international competition at age of twelve in Germany and I thought wow I actually completely we some good sound and then and then I had a horrible time at school again like I did not do on them like okay. I'm not uh good enough and then when I came to America in the beginning I was so confident I mouse. I'm like wow I'm pretty good and and then you know there are many grey student curtis they play so well and I'm legal. I'm not good enough and then I have no concert you know for for like three years almost because nobody half the confident to take a fifteen year old boy to play Beethoven Beethoven concertos are are skis kind of what I too young you know so I still remember my early days audition from Philadelphia taking the the the Greyhound bus twelve dollars something like yeah and then came to him to time square and running running into auditions and then afterward conductor snide so so there was a audition wacky symphony is good good good orchestra and the connector look at me from some European country and you played too good but How old are you an now if teen oh maybe another ten years so at Gosawx Bell in the beginning now. There's is a story that I read about going to Ettlin and German one in twelve twelve you go to a competition correct. I international accommodating for me yeah and when you go there you went to a church. I've ever you pray to Jesus when you were in this church and I'm just wondering you you want to phrase this question the right way which is do you have without enumerating them. We're discussing if you want to specific religious beliefs or like many people that I've met in the classic is music itself your religion. I think certainly music is our religion but I do believe there. Is this some incredible power beyond us. You're a guiding inspire from somewhere and this is not just about our wonderful friendship but there's some someone he's helping you. That's for sure and also from the different part of my life. You know there's a lot of time. I thought I'm going to make it but somehow I made strength. Do you listen to any classical music for me. I want I'm not performing. I like to listen to jazz because somehow the the jazz the jazz musicians are really really incredible. They can just you know give anything and they make it into a beautiful work especially especially people that I admire Herbie Hancock and She Korea those my great friend and also myrrh from them and then the other aspect act is to to listen to new music. You know just fresh made whether it's on talk radio or like. EDM just here movies TV darville grade and and also I think into Mahler symphony or Brahms symphonies are always always very very inspiring. You always find something new and somehow when I was a kid I didn. I really reflect those things into my life. You know you kind of listen to it. You know it's beautiful but now somehow what I'm especially you know normally when you play with Orchestra the Second Harvest August Roy Ray so I always sit in Menendez into Mahler Brahms the somehow reflecting your life. The challenges of the harmonies somehow is like is so related to us you sort of thinking all this is one point of my career. What happened is like you know the turning of the harmonies. What is it about this music that it touches people that way. What is your field because classical music especially in the symphonic pieces. There's so many different layers different layers and those layers are you're representing our emotion our memories and and our kind of different aspect of culture and people like modern. He's the the reason I think we love his music. So much is because he's he has such a makes of culture in his music. Sick at a somehow you know every one of us is piece of that and also you know cloud says what classical communities for it it has a very long pieces. Mary among symphonies and you know it's very different monument. You've you'll see a film at five five minutes and finishes his TV sopa twenty minutes or it's a movie for two hours. It's get you into a different stage of your heart heart of of your mind as well and I think symphonies are like an opera and they can really get in to berry deep layers of your heart and your census and another thing is that once you're in the concert hall listening to those incredible work is that everything else got blocked everything else so that's what your emotions become so pure so genuine. You'll become who you are and so that's why you know we got tears in her eyes because we're so focused and we just let music take us to when we start you know our life the first day of memory and I think that's what I was going to ask this question but I'll say this now and that is I was gonNA say y you grew up your childhood in China and then you've lived here in an abroad for years and I was Gonna ask you what what have you learned that the Chinese people on the American American people have in common and I guess what I'm realising is everywhere. You go what people have in common is this language of music and Love Music Farley. They're off one of a great officer coming to visit China. I'm in most of those Chinese kid probably never heard of those countries before in their knife but when they start are playing their music we held that we know each other and this is the power. This is really the power. Please join me in thanking our very special guest long long. Thank you the long long his most recent album of pieces. Normally reserved for young learners is cold piano. Oh book the accompanying hardcover has all the sheet music plus his notes on why each piece meant so much to him growing up this is Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing is a production of WNYC studios Here's the thing is supported by better help. Better help offers licensed professional counselors who specialize in issues such as depression. Shen stress and anxiety. You can get help through text. Chat phone and video sessions can start in under twenty four hours. Here's the thing listeners owners get ten percent off your first month with Discount Code thing so why not get started today go to better help dot com slash thing simply fill out a questionnaire to help them assess your needs and get matched with a counselor better help dot com slash thing.

Alec Baldwin New York Philadelphia United States China Curtis Curtis Peop America China Curtis Institute of Music Indiana WNYC WNYC studios Beijing Billy Billy Joel London Graffman officer Asia Korea Vienna
Wednesdays Houston Matters: Lake Jackson On Alert Over Water Supply, And 50 Years Of PBS (Sept. 30, 2020)

Houston Matters

53:38 min | 1 year ago

Wednesdays Houston Matters: Lake Jackson On Alert Over Water Supply, And 50 Years Of PBS (Sept. 30, 2020)

"This programming is brought to you by the near Northwest Management. Distract more information on the near Northwest Management. District at N N M D dot Org build near grow near. CNN's Jake Tapper says it was a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train trainwreck ABC News George Stephanopoulos called the worst presidential debate. He's ever seen in his life. NPR's Domenico Montanaro suggested. It may have been the worst presidential debate in American history. I'M CRAIG CO in today on Houston Matters. What if anything we can take away from last night's debate we'll talk it over in our political round up with the University of Houston's brandon rotting. House Nancy Sims. Also this hour what we know about a brain eating amoeba that killed a young boy earlier this month and led to a disaster declaration and boil water advisory in Lake Jackson also had we welcome your public television memories and questions for PBS President and CEO Paula Kirker. PBS Turns Fifty Years Old next week we'll start with a news update from NPR. Then check in with Eddie Robinson some of what matters to Houston today stay with us. This is Houston Matters Craig Cohen good. Morning. This hour we'll recap last night's presidential debate and welcome here reactions to whatever that was. So next week PBS turns Fifty Years Old we welcome your public television memories and questions about the past present and future of PBS for its president and CEO Paul occurred. After we check in first with news eight, seven, Eddie Robinson is here with some of what matters to. Houston today Good Morning Eddie good. Morning Greg. Some updates here for you state regulators have released the final report investigating the Houston School Districts Special Education System the report which found widespread and significant issues with H. ISD follows a nearly year-long investigation that found shortcomings similar to those found in previous reports and twenty eleven twenty eighteen, our education reporter Laura, Eisenson has been following up on this story yesterday and today, and she'll bring us an update later this afternoon during all things considered. A Busy Commissioner's Court online yesterday Harris County property owners are likely to see some relief on their taxes. The tax rate for Harris, county property owners could drop by one point three cents per one hundred dollars of assessed value. The decrease includes cuts to the General Fund and port of Houston but offsets slight increases in funding to the hospital district and flood control. The court also approved a plan which would transform an entire block of downtown Houston and contained in Quito Park Into A. Memorial recognizing four men who were lynched in Harris County between eighteen, seventy, seven and nineteen fifty that site will also include art installations, a water feature and permanent information on the local history of racial and social inequality. Also on that call yesterday Harris County Precinct Four Commissioner. Jack Kay goal. He announced Craig during the virtual meeting that he's tested positive for covert nineteen. He says, he started experiencing some mild cold like symptoms last week and was tested on Monday Keiko's now on self quarantine. Finally cracked new this just end we're receiving word in our newsroom that the Texans, home game this Sunday at noon can proceed as scheduled the Minnesota Vikings team tested negative for Colbert, nineteen according to League officials. So it's the Texans and the Vikings this Sunday at noon the Vikings played against the titans this past Sunday and some players and staff members from the titans had an outbreak of the disease. But that gives us a green light for a limited capacity fans to check out the game this Sunday at noon against the Texans in the Vikings and don't forget game two of the Al Wildcard Best of three series between the Astros and the twins that's scheduled for today at noon Jose Erkki will for Houston they just announced that as well. This morning Jose heels will be on the mount from Minnesota? The Astros won yesterday's matchup four to one. All right Houston versus Minnesota on two fronts. Can you imagine. He's eight seventy Robinson. Thank you. Residents of Lake Jackson fifty, five miles south of Houston. Their water this morning and may have to for a while officials continue to try and wrestle back the city's water system from a brain eating. AMOEBA that killed a young boy earlier this month and lead to a disaster declaration in the area governor. Greg Abbott visited Lake Jackson Tuesday with representatives from the Texas Commission on Environmental Quality, the Department of State, Health Services and the division of Emergency Management News at eight seven flory and Martin has been following the story floor and welcome back to Houston Matters Hey, good morning crank. What did the governor had to say yesterday? Well, the governor and the other officials I'm that were there all expressed their condolences to the family of desire. McIntyre. Six year old boy who died from that brain eating Amoeba and they were really trying to convey that they're doing everything that they can to make sure that the water in the Jackson is safe As you mentioned, they have the boil water notice in effect that that will probably be. For the next two to three weeks. And after that, they will take up to another two months to flush out the water system with chlorine to disinfect it entirely. And they will be inspecting the water system to see if any unfiltered water might be entering the system anywhere. What is it takes a long to to clean something like this up. Well I guess, you just have to go through the entire system you know and flush it out and and then pump in the the chemicals. and. You the just takes a while I. mean they, of course, water systems always. have some chlorine in it, but they just want to make sure to really get levels up as high as possible Do officials have any? Understanding as to why or how this AMOEBA got into the supply in the first place. Are. They didn't want to speculate on that that they're saying this is still under investigation but again, they are inspecting the water system to see if any water that unfiltered might have entered and You know an might have contained a in that how it got into it. Somehow, the pointed out. This is the first time that a public water system in Texas has ever registered this Amoeba. Does have happened though in other states in Louisiana and Arizona and also in two hundred countries in the world, the public water system was contaminated with with this Amoeba So hopefully, this will be the end of it. Eight seven flooring Martin. Thank you very much. Thank you Craig while a brain eating amoeba certainly sounds and is scary cases of the disease caused by the micro Naegleria Fowleri and I apologize if I mispronounce that are exceedingly rare to tell us more about that. We're joined by Dr Bob Knight Lol Assistant Professor at the College of Medicine. She has extensive experience in global. Public. Health Doctor Law Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. How does someone end up with this microbe eating away at their brain? So negative Larry is actually a heat. Loving. Of Eba and it's about the single celled microbe and it's the only malaria known to actually infect people. as you know, it commonly freshwater lakes ponds, streams, hot springs, river, and improperly maintained slowing world boil now tap water in this area. Heating units and air conditioning unit, and what actually happens is it has to actually be has to actually go into days probably would actually has to go into the nasal cavity and ride along the old pack nerves, which is the nerves author. Of Mouth and then it wants the brain. It actually causes destruction of brain tissue. How rare is this? So. It actually is very rare in America compared to how many people actually swim in these areas, and there's only been about thirty four reported infections in the US in the last ten years from two thousand, ten to two, thousand, and nineteen, and thirty from recreational use about one, hundred, forty, four out of one, hundred, forty, eight cases in the have been fatal and I'm these recorded from nineteen, sixty, two to two, thousand and nineteen, and the mean age of the patient with this sort of what minutes light was twelve years old with the range from eight months fifty, six years of age and seventy, nine more male. And the reason for this was also unclear given. There are so many cases America, and the world. How long can these microbes lives in a water supply? So these these microbes can actually they have to live at a very hot I met and any water supply the season that exceeds thirty degrees or continuing exa twenty, five degrees pin support the growth Celsius At a certain temperature to actually survive and they can survive for several days at temperatures. A temperature of, let's say, one hundred, fifteen degrees Fahrenheit would be a very good temperature for them to survive and they do survive for short periods of these high temperatures. Over and cooler, they are less likely to survive. We often hear about these cases coming from people who went swimming in warm. Lake water is this something that can easily end up in a city's water supplier is that to fairly rare? So it's most likely Sandra water supply system at the source at a breaks and field systems, open reservoirs or king. But under favorable condition is warm unchlorinated water or fluctuating worrying residuals necessary. Actually Philip right in the pipework and tanks and enter into a state that's more of a within confection. So it can also assist the actual fists and actually survive in Tank sediments and type of film while it's really important to design, manage and clean piping storage tanks and minimize sediment, which may harbor the fist and reduced water technician slow because you do that I mean is it something that is fairly easy to prevent or now? It's really important for the water provided continue to test the temperatures and also maintain a certain amount of pouring in these areas and as as if the water supply actually tested properly, they can maintain a good handle on, but they really need to make sure there's no braking system as well. Dr Bob Nepal isn't Assistant Professor at the College of Medicine Doctor Lol thanks very much. Thanks and this a couple of things to prevent this as well. You WanNa make sure that you. Don't swim in these areas. So you don't WanNa swim in water supplies that are that are have you hot temperatures with lakes and streams and hot springs, and you also want to run the water in the shower or a hose for five minutes Don't want to use tap water and things like many pots or daily needle phrase to rent, and you WANNA use boiled water or stillwater Sarah Water and also things like cpap machine for sleep apnea. You WanNa make sure you sold water. So anything that was going to your nose you WanNa make sure you have still water sterile water or water that better than pooled. All right. Well, thank you very much. Thank you thank you. Up, next, we discussed last night's presidential debate. It was well loud. Also the court battle over straight ticket voting in Texas it's our weekly political roundup is Houston matters continues. This is Houston Matters Craig Cohen CNN's Jake Tapper last night called it a hot mess inside a dumpster fire inside a train wreck ABC. News George Stephanopoulos stated simply that it was the worst presidential debate. He had ever seen in his life NPR's Domenico Montanaro went even further suggesting it may have been the worst presidential debate in American history president trump constantly interrupted former vice president Joe Biden called trump a clown told him to shut up moderator Chris Wallace admonished the candidates the president. especially. For not following the rules, the campaigns had agreed to and there was crosstalk throughout and the president hesitated to downsize white supremacy. So there's that welcome to politics in two thousand twenty. Let's talk through whatever that was last night in today's political roundup, with Brandon, Rotting House Co host of News, Eighty Eight, seven party politics program, and a professor of political science at the University of Houston and Nancy. Sims political analyst and lecturer in Political Science Department Brandon Nancy Welcome to Houston matters. Thanks good line as we chat we welcome your reaction to the again using air quotes here. Debate at talk at Houston. Matters Dot Org or seven, one, three, four, four, zero, eight, seventy. All Right Nancy. Why don't you start us off? How would you characterize what transpired last night? You could compare it to a hockey day. Data the game has some good. Games kinda hoping for a fight that if that's what you wanted night, you got it. Wild. The find. We've got a little bit of static on the line there Nancy. So I'm GonNa see if we can put you hold and get a better connection with you brandon and the meantime how would you characterize what you saw and heard last night? Ethically Bad I. Don't think we've seen this kind of frustration and a debate for a long time maybe since two thousand right remember when Al Gore was pilloried for signing loud during George W Bush's comments that was a scandal and how we've got literally the candidates telling. You know shut up and so it's pretty bad. There's also reminds me of nineteen, seventy six when the lights went out during the debate between President Ford and and then governor Jimmy. Carter and you had them literally not speaking about thirteen minutes in the dark. So we've had some grim moments in presidential debate history but just might go down the most troublesome an Ansi sims aside from the combative nature of the debate itself young the the mess that it was. In terms of the issues or in terms of what you did hear from the candidates, what were your major takeaways? Clearly defined their differences There was no question where each of them stood. At you know between the attacks they they did actually fairly make clear their positions. Joe Biden's direct talking to the cameras seem to be his comfort level and president trump having trouble staying focused on the issue and more focused on Biden with the prominent takeaways. Of course, you know the fact that president trump did not condemn white supremacy was startling to many and you know I think the but Biden had there were things that were concerning about Biden's comments as well. Such as. Well I. Think some people were a little uncomfortable with the healthcare discussion. It just didn't. You couldn't get clear where where he was on that. Brandon. Rotting House what were your major takeaways? Well I think that the trump did what he needed to do. He need to knock Biden off his primary objective, which was to basically threat a very difficult needle a thread, and to show that he was up moderate Democrat with some progressive tendencies didn't Kinda fully embrace the proposals on the left of his party like Medicare for all of the green new deal. So he was able to do that and so in a way despite the fact that it was so ugly like like when when when Mike, Tyson bit of Andhra haller filtering that quite like the late ninety s this is really the sort of I don't win by default now they Tyson out fight and they probably should from both of these out of this. Debate but this was I think kind of trump's just strategy just to be as aggressive as he can be interrupting like Qasmani in. Dallas all over the place. So and that's the way he wanted to fight this fight and I think the fact that he sees the polls he knows that he's slumping and some states he has to win to be able to. Be Successful. He resorted to what Nancy implied his comfort zone right for Joe Biden was talking to camera for Donald Trump is trying to impose his will on the debate and it worked some degree but I think it turns off a lot of voters process Nancy Histrionics aside did president trump make any sort of case for why he should have a second term? I don't. I. Don't think that he did he. He really was on a defense most of the night probably the only place they got. Any legitimate discussion in was during the Supreme Court conversation and there he he was very aggressive is is brandon said, and you know. But for the most part, he didn't defend this administration didn't defend the pandemic law and order he was very strong and aggressive. But he didn't seem to make a strong case. Brandon did former vice president. Biden make any sort of case for. Be. Elected. Instead. I think he did you hear a few points. He needed to be clearer on I think if things were different, he would've been slightly more understandable but he definitely talked about healthcare is an issue that's a major wedge issue for a lot of down ballot suburban. So. Yeah it was good. There's also the climate change issue. He had a tough call air because he had to try to determine that you know he was moderate than some of the green new deal folks but he tried to defend that and I think most of his supporters will see that he also needed to make a referendum on trump and within the first two minutes. Pivoted to Kovic saying this is administration that hadn't been successful at treating this and the trump the trump administration need to be there faster or quicker smarter to deal with it, and so I think he did a good job kind of positioning the race where he wanted go. Brandon what were the major examples you saw and heard where either candidate either responded falsely or not at all to what was being asked? One thing that Joe Biden is getting criticism for is not talking about the court in what he would do number one terms of whether or not. The next legislature would pass that bill to increase the size of the court and also he kind of demured when it came to issues about whether or not there was going to be specific people in the court like trumpet listed individuals he said he would put him to court. So by getting some criticism for that, although saying little is probably not smart here for trump I think the fact they didn't condemn white supremacy, which is the most. Vile way that country compulsive apart is is as Nancy said startling and shocking, and I think for him in particular the need to be able to rally republicans who were leaning an unsure about trump's time in office it hurt him badly. So trump strategy was clearly just get the base out and forget about everybody else. That's going to be a real problem for him in some key states, but also problem for down ballot Republicans. Nancy same question. Major examples are heard where either candidate either responded falsely or not at all to what was being asked. Well. Getting them to stay on subject seem to be a very tough for I'd moderator Chris Wallace and everybody's condemning him the sport I feel like he was the referee the hockey. Game. That's the second hockey you reference and I feel like you're maligning sport I love so I also since maybe you're doing that on purpose to get me off my game. He de. Such a huge hockey fan so I had to I had to experiment as. Well I felt like that you know obviously trump not answering the white supremacist question and almost encouraging You know a movement to continue on his side of the aisle and then I, think the that fines struggled with some of the issues related to his family, the emotions ran very fix there. And I felt like He. Just kept at it like a dog that is. Has Beaten and the. Biden didn't ever quite get the chance to clarify say what he wanted to say. This. Is Houston matters. I'm Craig Cohen. We're talking with political analysts, Nancy Simpson Brandon Rotting House about last night's presidential debate and other recent developments. In politics. We welcome your reaction to what transpired last night at seven, one, three, four, four, zero, eight, seventy, or talk at Houston matters dot org we received an email from Michael. Who says in reference to last night's debate I preferred them when they were in the balcony on the muppet show. Now. Personally I find that offensive for Statler and Waldorf. I think got along in their heckling so now. And they didn't interrupt each other right. Respectful in a joking way. Okay. So let me ask you the pointedly Brandon was last night useful. I think it was useful to a limited degree for people who wanted to see their team win right they eat or wanted to see their opponents offer or their candidate win. So for that, it's a good thing but that's not a successful. What is successful debate would do would be to clarify the issues identify and I really highlight some of the key issues in that race and then determine where the candidates stand. On them for people who are undecided the very few of them that there are I think this didn't really move the needle and honestly I think what we know from scholarship on this is that when campaigns go negative like this, it is mobilizing effect and so the people who are undecided probably simply won't vote and again, this is a tremendously troublesome development for what's supposed to be a moment where we're clarifying understanding. Nancy what's your thought? What's was last night's debate useful. I don't think it was useful but I would say that it may have energized the by supporters a bit more are as I. Prefer to call them the anti trump supporters because try and trump's supporters will be very energized from his actions in the debate last night that they have been rather energized the. A lot of folks are not actually four Joe Biden they're just against Donald Trump. So last night may have given them more motivation to to get out and cast their ballots. Let's take a call. We have TJ on the line from spring. What's your reaction to last night's to? Honestly say. Okay I'm Jamaican American so the be here is. GonNa Black Side But I'm a I'm a trump senators I. Mean but. The question here inviting new trump was going to go personal ad they push them to do so. And that's what he did. He went personal with them as they were I in a widow. Trump's history shows any business trump ever partnered with he pulled out just before they bank and they allow trump to get the world's biggest business that was America. Did, they think any different they tried to kick him out. He he he ran America like a business and he got American money but trump smart everything trump God America. I'm pretty sure he's GonNa try to take back for himself. Okay. Thanks for the call in for the reaction. Well. Is there a couple of things maybe we could dig into their from the comments Brandon Rotting House I I guess maybe let's focus on that initial comment about the idea that maybe. Former Vice President Biden, and maybe at least from the callers perspective the moderator Chris Wallace were were essentially goading the president into these kinds of reactions did was that your impression I. Don't think it takes much to go the president into reacting this way. Honestly the spent his Mo it works for him and it seems to be attracted to people who support him but I think the biggest problem is that it turns off a lot of other people. So I think in consumed with Nancy's point this is an electorate that. Joe Biden but they don't like Donald. Trump and so that's a big problem for trump and the biggest problem though is not just for trump who could very well lose the election on those kinds of points allowing. But also doubt Republicans I mean in Texas alone you're talking about probably a half dozen to a dozen seats there in play because Donald. Trump. Is So despised delegation at the congressional level could very well be completely tipped where Republicans could lose seats that they held are open seats that they probably parley at part of that held. So this is a real problem for not just Donald Trump for the party. Nancy, among the topics that did come up last night was president trump's tax history. New York. Times investigation has revealed the president pages seven, hundred, fifty dollars in federal income taxes in two, thousand, sixteen in two, thousand, seventeen, the president denied that last night is this reported revelation likely to sway anyone? who think that well I you know again as Brennan has pointed out there, very few undecided people in this election. But I do think it inspires more middle class folks. What what the challenge was in the debate is it was just classic trump as he said, well, that's just not true. I paid millions. Okay. How much and win? You know please share by actually said that too. But you know we we never know what is truth coming from him but the the documentation that the New York Times release shows that he paid very little and even even for people like ourselves we look at that go in, you have got to be kidding. Surely the man paid more taxes than that and. I think it has an effect on the middle class voters. Especially, we have just a couple more minutes I want to focus on some other political developments, but also want to note that if you have something more that you like to say about last night's debate, you will have a whole hour to talk about it on town square with earning news today at three o'clock. We hope you'll tune in then and share your thoughts Brandon back here in Texas court fights underway over straight ticket voting what's happened So this is a band that has been put into effect effectively route taking away ticket voting This is going to be fought at the ports. My guess is the fifth circuit will eventually side with Texas and say that this has to be as it is on the ballot that has no straight ticket voting going forward three ticket voting is actually a helper democrats down ballot some of the research that I've done shows that down ballot Democrats who in the running for House and Senate seats or. Advantage between three and five thousand votes. So there's a big bump that's available for straight ticket voting. So Democrats was like a cease to come back, but the courts may not let it and the Republicans are very said that they're going to try to eliminate it. So we'll see how plays out Nancy. Well, we've naturally been fixated on the debate last night. There are, of course, a number of key local races in full swing you wanted to comment on an ad that impressed you featuring congressman, Dan Crenshaw Right. This is a it's a Republican Party ad and that. If people haven't seen it, you can just Google Crenshaw. Rob, but the the. The AD portrays crenshaw is heading out on a mission. Kinda starts out missing impossible in gathers up The other targeted races in Texas those candidates and pulls them together in ends in an adventure of vendors type scene, and you know my my personal take on it is extremely creative. It does that may not move voters, but I thought it was an incredibly creative ad. Nancy Sims is a political analyst and lecturer and UH's political science. Department Brandon Rotting House Co News Eighty eight seven party politics program and is a professor of political science at the University of Houston Nancy Brandon. Thanks very much. Craig. Just ahead we welcome your public television memories and questions about the past present and future public TV for PBS President Holliger. Ahead of next week's fiftieth anniversary of PBS join the conversation at talk at Houston matters dot org or seven, one, three, four, zero, eight, Seventy S Houston matters continues. This is Houston matters I'm Craig Cohen PBS, the Public Broadcasting Service was launched fifty years ago next week or actually went on Air I. Suppose you'd say to discuss public television's legacy and future we are joined now by PBS President and CEO Paul Occur Paula Welcome to Houston matters. Anchor Craig. It's wonderful. Wonderful to be here with you. As we chat, we welcome your memories of favourite PBS programs from sesame street and Mister Rogers neighborhood to the news hour and Nova Antiques Roadshow Downton Abbey and beyond or if you have any questions about the past present or future of PBS, we welcome those as well at seven one, three, four, four, zero, eight, eight, seventy. You can email us at talk at Houston Matters Dot Org can reach out on twitter at Houston matters. Paul I'm still recovering from last night's presidential debate and it reminds me of how desperately we are in need of civility in thoughtfulness and education and curiosity, and all the things that PBS has sought to bring the public over the last fifty years how in a world where anger and combativeness seemed to be top of mind way too often on our public discourse how can public television remain relevant? Well I think exactly because of the of the environment we're in right now we certainly stand out I think one of the things that is important to understand about public media and it's an I have to tell you Craig I'm so happy that I'm talking to you because I'm sure most of your listeners know. But if they don't public media began in Houston Houston, public media with the very first station that went on the air in Nineteen fifty-three celebrating our fiftieth anniversary but public media began in this great city In one, nine, hundred and fifty three, the first broadcast station, go on the air and and then we followed a number of years later as a as the organization to bring all of our stations together and so I appreciate the opportunity to be with you. But I the history is important because from the very beginning, we were envisioned to be a place where people could be inspired that the broadcast media could be used not just for entertainment purposes, but also for educational purposes and I think increasingly as as a place. Where people could come together debate of course but to really talk about the important ideas of our times, you look at series like the news hour which was really built with this idea of dedicating a full hour every night to the important news stories and the context around those stories that we need to pay attention to in order to be engaged citizens. When you look at the work that we've done, you know for kids over the years all with the idea of making sure that every child is prepared to enter school not only. Ready to learn. But excited to learn and I think you know as I, look at our audiences over the last years You know we see an increase in people coming to public broadcasting because I think people hunger for You know really finding our better selves really coming together and not being torn apart and so I think what has always been our guide star in public broadcasting. This is idea of really creating a place for civil conversation. In fact, I think is needed now more than ever if that's one way that public broadcasting's mission. Has worked over the last fifty years in what ways do you think could be better. Well I. Am sure it is a great shock to all of your listeners that we have never been over funded and so I think you know as a as what has been a very. Of scrappy Media Organization I would say that there are you know our aspirations are always much larger than our ability to execute. Having said that you know we have been innovators over the years open in content we signed on the air by the way with Julia Child So if you want to answer a Trivia, question is how did PBS began we began with a French chef and you know which really began this whole movement of cooking shows on on television. If you look over the years, you know the news hour was the first nightly hour long newscast we were early in financial news we actually. Believe it or not founded the reality show genre with the with the family called the louds in a series called American family the. If you look at at what we do for children you know before public broadcasting children's television was really the you know the the Weatherman at a station and put on a concert run commercial cartoons. So I mean I think that you know we have this great legacy that we've built, but always aspirations are to do more I have a personal interest as we look forward we look at this circumstance that we're in right now coming through covert and everything that that has brought us that. There is so much that I think we could be doing even more to to help knit our together and I think of areas like the arts which So many arts are to in this country now are really suffering through. You know what is in essence an existential circumstance I would like us to do more in that space. I don't think we've done enough I think that over. The years we have shine a bright light on a bright light on on. So much of the work the happens across this country, but there's more that we can be doing, and so which comes back to my point about being underfunded I. I'm personally working to try to bring the resources in so that we can do more and more of the kind of work that people are counting on us to do. This is Houston matters. I'm Craig Cohen. We're talking with Paula. Kerber. She's the president and CEO of PBS Discussing Fifty Years of PBS the Public Broadcasting Service, it launched fifty years ago. Next week, we welcome your questions comments in public TV memories at seven, one, three, four, four, zero, eight, seventy on twitter at Houston matters or email us at talk it Houston Matters Dot Org, and let's take a call way of Jane on the line from Zuri City Jane would you like to discuss? Hello. Hello. Pala. Congratulations. Paula. I'm Jay Chelsea. Hi I I wanted to tell you I missed our fellow Texan GM layer. I'm this. Quinn would wonder what they would recollection or reflections they provide. So it's after last night I I just wanted to tell you you have been a source for my family for many many years in the quality of broadcasting I'm a supporter and I'll continue to be. I I do have a story that when the original music of The news hour come on my son who was. Two years old at the time wherever he was he heard that classical piece and he run in to hear that he was stopped and stand in front of the TV until that music that planes I don't know if you ever think of going back to the original music, but it was just amazing. Twenty five now you put away. Put Away trombone but I just think you guys equality and whatever you do and I just want you to know is so profound that the quality of the people have still stayed with you because you're all the years and all the cable and everything else we still come back to you because you guys give it all your everything all in one channel and thank you for what you're doing. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I thought I've been thinking a lot about gwen and Jim recently and and as I've been talking to people coming off of our Fiftieth Anniversary thinking about our fiftieth anniversary I think of all the extraordinarily people that have been. Part of public broadcasting and it's on their shoulders that we all stand. You'd think of Gwen, you think of, Jim you think of Fred Rogers you think Julia Child I mean extraordinary people who have helped define not just how not this public television but I think television this country and the and the journalism of people like Jim in Gwen second-to-none. I'm very proud to worked alongside of both of them. I wonder not only how they might have responded to last night's debate. But both moderated a number of presidential debates and I suspect they might have been speaking out in defense of Chris Wallace last night of because it's an extraordinary task to try and pull off. Let's. Let's next. Go to johnny and Lamar Johnny, what are your thoughts? Lots to return swipe aggressive tax code. No loopholes. Up, practically tax code. I apologize we've got to take off the lamp. Sorry but the connection is just just so bad. My understanding is Johnny wanted to talk about the idea of PBS moving away from corporate sponsors and getting more government funding. Do you see that in the offing Paula in any context? Well. You know. I as I'm sure many of your listeners are aware you know from time to time, there's a lot of discussion about you know the federal appropriation into public broadcasting. It represents about fifteen percent that's one five percent of the funding, and that largely goes to our stations around the country and it it is this portion impactful to smaller stations and communities that May. Not Have the resources to maintain their own public television or public radio stations. We care a lot about making sure that every. American, no matter where you live or what your economic that you have access to a world of ideas. This is what this is what LBJ thought about when he signed the Public Broadcasting Act which was the empowering legislation that eventually led to the creation of. PBS, and so I think in this economic climate amas there are so many hard decisions to be made around federal funding. I. Think the idea that more money would come out of the federal government is probably not a good assumption. I think would made our station strong including your public media is the fact that people in the community step up and make contributions largest amount of money. Coming into public broadcasting comes from viewers like you for which we are. So deeply grateful and I think that you know this public private partnership with forged. It is one that I think is usually effective and I think it it really the onus is not to continue to look for ways to make sure that we are bringing people together with our public media stations and encouraging their support. Much of the PBS Primetime schedule is made up of programs that are dedicated to current events in science and history and culture. But ratings successes over the years have been more often through shows like antiques roadshow masterpiece series like Downton Abbey. member. Stations fill their schedules with British comedies. Some of them decades old some station still air old. Lawrence. Programs. I'm wondering and certainly the educational programming during the day series like frontline and independent Lens. Pov they all demonstrate diversity and inclusion. But do you think there's some ground cover their across the rest of the prime time schedule? So it, it's a great question. You know ours schedules are ultimately decided station by station. So you know we feed a schedule stations and then they you know they take out of it what what they wish, and they also supplement it with sometimes some popular fair which they would argue as meeting a need of some of the viewers in their community, as well as local production that they produce as well as some programming that they might acquire from other places and I think that you know I used to run schedule years ago when I when I was at station and I, always. Looked for a balance of programs that were really meeting the needs of of a range of interests within my community I think that you know for us, we are not driven by ratings where mass media organization, we want people to come. They want we want to serve the interests of the communities that you know have You know appetite for lots of different programming, which is what makes running a variety service, which is what we are the challenge in an opportunity I think that you know sometimes we have programs that actually do both you look at the great work of Ken. Burns. Series on country music was the highest rated series on public television last year. So I think I think that it's You know in the interest of the public we you know we do our best to try to put a range of programs together and we continue to look for new filmmakers, the new ideas, and frankly stories that are not well told and I think that is that has been the hallmark of public broadcasting over the years. Paul I know you have to go want to say thank you Paula Cougar President and CEO PBS. Thanks so much for joining us and congratulations on the fiftieth anniversary next week. Thank you craig wonderful being with. Still the come Joshua's in talks with composer Anna Klein one of her works is being performed by the Houston Symphony. Stay with US this Houston matters continues. This weekend. The Houston symphony will for the first time perform music by composer Anna Klein alongside works by Haydn and divorce. Jack Klein is a grammy nominated London born composer working here in the US who has head composer residents stints with the Chicago and Baltimore Symphony Orchestras, as well as a few international ensembles. Klein says the piece, the Houston symphony will performance called within her arms was heavily influenced by her mother's death. She tells Houston Matters Joshua's. Story and talks about how the arts are evolving during the pandemic got. It's so difficult to know in such an uncertain sort of passive time right now but. Thing that I have been thinking about is I, think some of whistles learning some new techniques to our creative community. The Way we shall music very different audience at very different presenter of music. So. There's actually been some some positives I think out of this situation of making concerts, for example, to a global audience. So yesterday I had the Finnish symphony ship a peace of mind that. Ordinarily wouldn't be able to be present at that I was able to. Go online and hear the musicians and feel that I'm really connected to that that performance Matt Experience. So I think that's a positive. Outcome of this very difficult situation opening music and the arts to a global audience in a different context through the extent of your career even going back to when you were in school, is this a very different worlds especially for music than you've seen, you're just the inter connectivity that we have with social media and being able to connect online. It is I think even before the pandemic, the way we communicate has really been revolutionized by social media and access to a wealth of information on just online that we never used to have. So I think it's sort of opened up our community. It's also opened up boundaries that used to exist between different. I think those boundaries of being smashed open, which ends itself really well to collaboration between musicians from different genres of music. But also between artists from very different fields, which makes it very fertile. An exciting time for the arts I think upcoming, the Houston symphony is going to be performing your peace within her arms which as I understand is inspired by your mother creatively, how do you approach a kind of commemorative memorial piece like this? You know when you're thinking of another person as you're writing, that's such an interesting question. I, wrote this piece back in two thousand and eight and. It was a piece that I didn't intend to to right but circumstances. Led to it but. To give a bit of context, I had been commissioned to write a piece for the Los Angeles Philharmonic. For their green umbrella series is actually Pekka silence last queen umbrella concerts. And we had been given the option to write for Non Sombor. Up to twenty instruments and I thought well be. Be Great right just for big string orchestra. So I chose fifteen string. So three, three, I, two second violins, three years we losing three bases and I was writing a very high energy, quite aggressive rhythmic piece. And then suddenly I got the shocking and. Awful News that my mother had passed away compete the unexpectedly. So I the time was in New York and I flew back to England and I immediately started writing this piece within arms, which is obviously very different to the sort of more chaotic turbulent piece that I had been writing previous. That aside and use this. Ensemble as an opportunity to really process and the unexpected grief that I was experiencing. But also to find a real connection to my mother, Alicia got home I started writing this and I had like a candle piano and I had a photograph of her that was taken from that week. So in a moment of real sadness I found out you almost a sense of happiness to be feel very connected through the process of writing peace within her arms. Won't think that kind of ties a little bit to the experience we're all going through me and I think everyone is sort of feeling. Maybe some grief depending on how they've been affected by the pandemic or or even just like feelings of depression just just like low dark feelings and and you talked about the creative process I mean is that for you a way to to cope with that I think so and I think it ties into what we were speaking about as you said just recently is. Is In these times of crisis I think if you are an artist musician and painter require up for filmmaker but that you have your art to sort of lean on in those times is incredibly. Supportive and almost cathartic in a away so. My response to the pandemic is is not dissimilar to that response to the tragedy of losing a loved one. Find A. Way To really focus and keep centers I. Don't think this is the case for this piece but in general, I feel like you know contemporary classical music can sometimes be challenging for for some audiences. Is that something that you think about as a composer, how an audience might receive a piece or are you just really writing what you WanNa right and it'll be received how it's going to be received? I just write the music that I want to write and I avoid writing I think if you try to write what you think they might like you're never going to win because everyone likes different things. I think you just have to be true to your voice. But for me, music shouldn't alienate people. It's an inclusive experience and I hope that my music. Is Genuine, and through that is able to speak to people. Of course, it went speak to everybody some people love it. Some people hate it. That's the nature of of any art. Really but yeah, my intention is not to alienate them do talked about being more inclusive. We're we're also seeing this kind of interesting moment in the arts especially in classical music where more conversations about representation are happening for women for people of Color kind of challenging the status quo I think what is your perspective on that? What conversations have you had or what have you seen just being a musician in that world? Again coming out of this, very difficult time I think one of the positives has been a conversation at the forefront of the artistic community of how can we be more inclusive across the board and we ask starting to see change ranging from competition programs to the Big Arts, institutions, representing women, people, of color, people from different ethnicities. It's shocking that it's twenty twenty in this these conversations are happening now but thank goodness they happening now and that we really are starting to see change and people already having a voice. My experience in composing and music in particular is what we have to really address his education. That's my feeling is that it really starts at a young age. How'd you get these opportunities equalize between everybody difficult challenge but I do believe that's where it really starts I mean is there any kind of wisdom you'd hope to impart to the next generation of musicians? I it's so difficult to so many threads to it but. Something that I found very beneficial in my work is collaboration be it with other artists or other musicians? So I think I would encourage young people to find their collaborators whether it's other. Composers are the musicians are the artists that they can really grow and support each other and build a community and I think the While practicing in an instrumental writing music is phrase solitary endeavor, it's really at the end of communal experience in. A sense of community. So the more that can be nurtured at a young age, the battery thing just kind of tying all this together I feel like a lot of classical music is built on tradition and some audiences take comfort in that how can performing arts groups sort of expand those boundaries and keep audiences invested wall still trying new things and bringing new people to to the table I think audiences a more open than PAP sometimes institutions realized. Fairly often in the orchestra world, you'll see no. Beethoven Brahms Really Great Standard. Repertoire, and then a contemporary piece of slung in for good measure hoping that the pontiff for the other pieces will will. Bear to listen to her newbies, but people are really excited and programs like the green umbrella with the NFL with music now for Chicago. Symphony. That's really eager audience for the new and in terms of tradition, we have to remember the all the composers of today are connected to that tradition. If you know it's like a musical family, you can follow your teacher who did your to study with, and so this linear you can really trace. So I think it can be very interesting to to listen to a of a composer living composer and. You know who the other composers that have influenced them, and they could be back to Barkhor to Beethoven Lebron's. But to hear those different voices together on the same program can be really interesting and can reveal things about the two composers that you wouldn't ordinarily imagine that's composer Anna Klein her work within her arms will be performed by the Houston Symphony. This weekend she spoke with Houston Matters Joshua's in. And that's it. For today's show the Houston matters. Team includes Michael Hagerty, Joshua's in Brenda. Ruiz's and Brenda Valdivia David Pittman is our technical director. We had help today from Davis. Land earning. News send his guests will have more on last night's presidential debate on today's town square. He'll welcome your thoughts that's at three o'clock today on US Eighty, eight, seven on tomorrow's show ut MB researchers on the hunt for the next pandemic causing disease. Also the challenges of hunting and twenty twenty I'm Craig Cohen Join US tomorrow for those and other. Houston matters.

Houston Donald Trump Craig Cohen Joe Biden Craig Brandon Nancy Nancy Brandon president. University of Houston Public Broadcasting Service Chris Wallace Paul Nancy Sims Texas US vice president President and CEO NPR
28: Eric Lewis - The Singular Genius of Elew

The Portal

2:05:43 hr | 1 year ago

28: Eric Lewis - The Singular Genius of Elew

"Hi this is Eric with a few thoughts for this week's housekeeping. What a WANNA bring up this week is how to think about the portal podcast and in particular. I want to give a few thoughts and how we should measure the scale of a critique or the power of an idea and how these two different concepts might interrelate. Many years ago I used to live in Cambridge Massachusetts and we had our own very peculiar notion of celebrities back then. Tracy Chapman literally used to bus on the street for money and NPR's car talk guys live locally. It was within that milieu that I would go to talks for entertainment as a graduate student. Lectures were godsend. They were free and plentiful. I would attend them the way other people go movies or concerts and from time to time that would include. Noam Chomsky's lectures on political theory as he worked at MIT. I was always impressed by sincerity. And sometimes I would stay after and talk with him on one such occasion. I told him that I had had a conversation with contacted. Npr and that that person might be interested in getting him a regular slot of perhaps five. Or more I was naturally very excited to make something like this happened if it were in fact. Possible GNOMES response was surprising to me at the time. He was absolutely emphatic. That he was not interested. Somewhat Stung I asked him why he was so definite. He replied in such a small slot against the backdrop of NPR filtered news. He would appear to the audience to be stark raving madman and that there was no way of presenting a deep critique so as to overcome the relentless framing of the news into narratives in which NPR was. Engaging I've have thought about that inner change many times since then as I've been haunted by its implications what good after all is a Chomsky level analysis if it is barred from having any impact when done at scale when we have a critique of a well known narrative or worldview it usually can be sorted into a taxonomy according to whether it accepts. Ben's or is forced to break the frame of the storyline with which it contends as an example. Imagine we were back in two thousand sixteen and I were to critique the coverage of the US presidential election for failing to contend with the ideas of Donald Trump saying that. I feel that we aren't covering trump sufficiently because we all know that Hillary is going to win would constitute a critique but one that accepts the narrative without challenge saying instead Hillary is going to beat Donald trump by much less than she imagines. We'll have to build. Her mandate after the inauguration. If she is to be effective would bend. The Hillary is inevitable media narrative. But saying instead I think all the pundits polls are wrong and the Donald trump should be expected to win would break the narrative entirely. This breaking of the frame is usually caused for derision and is of course. Exactly what got. Ann COULTER RIDICULED ON BILL. Maher's program when she made just that prediction to return to our story in Massachusetts. Almost all of Chomsky's points were in fact narrative breakers in this third category. He would have stories. We'd never heard from east t- more detailed history. On Iranian self determination and oil reserves data on Chilean atrocities to accept. Chomsky was to accept a world of different stories. That oddly enough could usually be authenticated but which were frequently referenced. Outside far left circle thus chomsky could not play inside the game of NPR which was often bending sometimes challenging visual narratives but seldom ever breaking the dominant frame within which the storylines developed in short planet. Chomsky was an alternative universe in which Howard Zinn might be found but where you would never find Samuel Huntington or Henry Kissinger. I mean they might have taught down the street at Harvard in the adjacent zip code one digit off but it was another incompatible universe entirely. So what can we say about the style of deep critique which must break the frame of its target without knowing any further information? Well in the first place no one can really argue that all frame. Breaking is unwarranted. I mean clearly. The view of North Korea's such a critique for example as is the mainstream baptists critique of an offshoot cult like the hate-fuelled Westboro Baptist Church and yet when the narrative under scrutiny is our own narrative the very one upon which we depend to give direction meaning and security in our daily lives. We can be relied upon to fight everything that breaks are frame irrespective of its validity. So with this in mind and the Kovic Pandemic Response Backdrop. Who are today's deep critics? And should we be listening to them or ignoring them as our reflex. Well I'm glad to say that Noam Chomsky is still going strong and dare to think that upon his eventual exit from this world. He may well be remembered as America's leading public intellectual even by many of the respectable people who paid him absolutely no mine while he was still a living threat to our system of course is another candidate now. Celebs idiosyncrasies notwithstanding it is particularly difficult to contend with the substance of celebs critique because it is so vast where other people trade accusations about. The misuse of statistics verges on saying that the field of statistics is itself the problem while some might argue about the Fallacy of appeal to authority in particular case to Leban- state goes after many of the expert class by name endearing himself to his targets by calling them. I Y I for intellectual yet idiot. He does this. I believe because he wants to signal that all frames coming from the mainstream should be considered dead on arrival with him unless verified from first principles. A third case might have been my old friend and colleague Serge Lang at Yale. Why may discuss another time as he is no longer with us and I will leave? Scott Alexander Venkatesh Rao Peter Thiel Nick Bostrom and others for another time. My aim and bringing up these various varied critics is to bring to consciousness. That there's actually almost no real information content in pointing out that we disagree with nearly any deep frame breaking critique if it's targeted upon our own narratives this must be the baseline expectation if we wished to see ourselves self aware and Meta cognitive we oppose most all such critics reflexively and completely independent of the merit of their arguments for reasons of self preservation and yet and yet even knowing this my goal at the portal is at least in part to provide you the listener with just such a deep critique. The problem here is that the critique as it stands is simply so vast that it is difficult to consider independent of whether or not it makes sense or is true. Think for example about the past episodes. We've been through we've asked to rethink science and its culture from the bottom up. The Portland packed began with an interview about stagnation during a period. Where most everyone else was talking about some dizzying pace of technological change. We've explored the idea of universal societal lies and preference falsification and the idea that Judaism might not even be a religion and most insanely the need to stave off an apocalypse potentially through planetary escape. Well before we were all told to stay indoors as a planet to avoid a killer virus I mean if there is a silver lining to this pandemic here at the portal. It is surely that are talk about the twin nuclei problem on the Joe. Rogan program and worldwide apocalypse seems a lot less farfetched after transitioning suddenly from business as usual to worldwide lockdown. So how can this be done at scale without paying the same exact reflexive penalty of cognitive dissonance? As all the other deep critics seem to have suffered if there is an answer here it is to be found in the concept of the portal itself. My goal is not to tell you that where we are as terrible and contains no meaningful options the highest ambition. In fact of the program is to show you how else you might think about finding passages to something real and more meaningful than the place you were when we first met after that. If you want to remain in place that would be a choice rather than a sentence. So what I want to leave you with is a notion which I believe goes back to Richard Dawkins at some point. He opined that one could measure the power of an idea as if it were a fraction to this way of thinking the power of an idea is measured as what the idea explains divided by what the idea is forced to assume for example dockings might claim that the theory of evolution is powerful specifically because it explains the origin of all known species in adaptations but only assumes the principles of natural and Sexual Selection. Maxwell's equations by contrast are powerful because they explain light x rays radio waves magnetism electricity. Photons all isn't unpacking of a single geometric concept vabres theory by turns that all government can oddly unpacked from the simple concept of monopoly on violence would be such a theory in the social rather than the natural sciences as such. It may be easier to accept Darwin's Maxwell's vapors critiques of all that came before them specifically because they're criticism is not scattered and flows simply from unifying and underlying principles in the case of the portal. We have endeavored to follow this example. Quite simply and there's no getting around this. Critique of modern life is partially characterized by just how deep it is yes. We are really saying that we have had a universally unworkable. Leadership class in place for nearly fifty years and that most of our institutions are not functioning ethically or honestly in other words. Most of US adults grew up in a bubble. Of course. That probably sounded a lot crazier too many before. Most people saw the worldwide clown show. That was an is the developed world's response to the Kovic nineteen pandemic but just imagine that almost every critical area of civil society leadership is just as badly prepared as our public health sector to react to immediate changes in need. And you will start to watch your brain tune out as it may well have during initial discussion of the virus in January. After all what would when do to fix it. I mean I myself get just like you whenever I think about the most straightforward implications. Where would we even begin for? God's sakes yet this is why we have endeavoured to provide you with a very small denominator to combat the sense of hopelessness. I mean if there is more or less only one route caused the problems. We're picking out then our idea. We'll have power in the sense of documents and we need not work individually on thousands of idiosyncratic downstream emergencies clamoring for attention in our theory. Almost all of this novel level of systemic failure and institutional leadership follows from a simple change in growth regimes in the post war regime from nineteen forty-five until the early nineteen seventies growth was so remarkable and constant that we built our institutions around expectations of economic expansion and technological innovation. And then just like that. Most all of that growth stopped around nineteen. Seventy one through nineteen seventy-three maybe having to do with predictions. Derrick desilva price more than ten years earlier which we can discuss another time like vapors theory of a monopoly. Violence Darwin's explanation of selection the validity of this simplification rests on what can be unpacked from relatively mild assumptions through the theory of embedded growth obligations because these institutions are facing the same system of pressures. There is near universal. Need for every titular head in this cohort of leaders to hide the fact that their institution is predicated on high growth expectations and they are all now. Failing and that the expectations cannot be met further. If this is correct they are failing in exactly the same ways with the same class and type of leaders at the helm. Who's top skill must be this masking of the inability of the leadership to meet the growth obligation embedded within the foundations of their institutions. Simply to keep the game going. This is what must now come to an end. Generations are in fact defined by their cognitive development during whatever environment was present during their formative years the important generational divide is likely between the silent and baby boomer generations on one side who grew up as children and young adults amidst real growth and we're thus attached to the narratives of success under difficult. Circumstances with Jackson the millennials still waiting their turn and largely alienated from narratives which offer them very little other than debt and near permanent holding pattern. Once the baby boomers and silence exit the system we are likely to see their successors start to actually admit to the terrible state of the institutions. So if you're interested in this theory this is now your homework. Assignment as you watch this cohort of leaders wrestle with the Kovic Pandemic Ask Yourself. What part of the bizarre nature of this response can be deduced from the theory of embedded growth obligations? We have now spent in the United States. The last twenty eight years under baby boomer administrations. So how did they do to prepare for this pandemic? Did they leave us? Stockpiles of essential supplies. Did they resign when they failed in? Their duties are their instincts compatible with the heavy burdens which are now likely to cascade from here and if pandemic leads to depression and depression leads to war. Would you wish to send yourself or a child into battle under president sanders president trump or president biden as commander-in-chief or would you look for a portal instead to avoid this choice Returning Sponsor thera gun is one of the perks of having sponsorship behind the program. I mean frankly introduced products that I love but that I would never have even known about much less purchased. Thera is a leading because of therapy device that delivers a soothing and relaxing massage. Like experience in a handheld device. That you or a partner can direct over sore shoulders aching muscles. Tired arm's and in the middle of a pandemic. There is a huge need for those who enjoy regular massages part of a fitness exercise and wellness practice to replace D- muscle tissue work with a safe alternative that I have found both relaxing and stress relieving. So when you're cooped up and probably need a massage why not feel better naturally treat your pain and get back to your life try. Thera gun risk free for thirty days or your money back by going to their gun. Dot Com slash portal and for a limited time our listeners to the podcast. Get up to one hundred dollars off on each new device. That's there again dot com slash portal. Thera gun spelled. T. H. E. R. A. G. U. N. dot com slash portal returning sponsor. Wine access has been great to us at the portal. And they more or less. Let us do what we want with the ad copy. Let me make a recommendation. That's both good for them. And good for US considered dressing for dinner while you're sheltering in place in a way that's unnecessary opening a bottle of wine that the dam site better than you absolutely have to why. Well I don't know just despite this virus and a little bit of Panache in this trying circumstance I think is a great affirmation of the human spirit so if while shut in you're looking to educate yourself about the world wine why not challenge the wine geeks at wine access wine club. Because they're offering an amazing deal for only one hundred and fifty dollars. You'll get a shipment of six premium wines at an average of twenty five dollars a bottle but you know you're going to be getting great value. That is top quality at minimum price. Because they're scouring the world for offbeat offerings plus as a member. You'll get ten percent off all other wine access purchases. So don't wait. Sign up for the wine access. Wine club today user special URL wine access dot com slash portal. And you'll get all the details at WHINE ACCESS DOT COM SLASH PORTAL. This portal episode. Introduces you to one of my favorite people and favorite artists on earth. Now let me say this. If you were to ask me which I guess so. Far is most often an open portal to the transcendent. This is the one and I've seldom in a certain as I am here. It's hard to know what to say. But you Lou Aka Eric Lewis. Two things however clear he is a straight up genius and a force of nature. Are we friends? I'd definitely say yes but it is a strange thing to be friends with an avalanche or Sue Nami at our Shebab dinner table for example. He's one of our favorite guests but he often speaks to me. In riddles and sometimes reminds me in speech of how Jimi Hendrix used to struggle to talk to mortals and in many ways beyond that the comparison seems a good one. If one looks at the musical notation meant to say what Hendrix was doing on Guitar. It is remarkable how little is captured. This is because Hendrix expanded the dimensionality of the guitar with Feedback Micro embellishments and electronic wizardry. So that the notes provided only the barest substrate for the tapestry of sound that was being woven in many ways. Eric has done the same thing for the piano. So just as Les Paul Preceded Hendrix in using the studio as an instrument and flamenco artists. Were tapping on fret boards long before Eddie van. Halen change the because of guitar game. Eric was not the first to play with the internal organs of the piano to coax out. New Sounds but far beyond the prepared piano experiments of Art Music Composers when Eric Rip the cover off the piano to play both the keys in the harp behind he brought so much dimensionality in Seoul that hit last overcame the critical limitation of the instrument that had plagued it since his birth the Piano Mechanical Action. Which is one of the great triumphs of pure mechanical engineering ensured. That there was regularity to most every note Erica place that regularity and created a higher dimensional instrument if the piano was Einstein to the Harpsichord Newton in Eric's hands the piano went relativistic and quantum finally at the same time. I should say that this is one of many different. Innovations Eric has brought. He has explored the fusion of Baroque counterpoint. In Jazz into a style that he calls counter Bob which quite frankly stretches my mind farther than it can often go as well. Innovating Rock Jazz. Replaces the Tin Pan Alley Song Book of standards? Additionally he is innovative in several aspects of showmanship as well as -ing and screenwriting which is hardly surprising as my entire body can seemingly fit inside braincase as for this interview. A word of warning. I should say that Eric is being very kind to me. Indeed by inviting me to at least pretend to play along with him either on the high registers of the piano while he is playing or using the clogged Harmonica I happened to find in my pocket the morning recorded in. La On a famous Yamaha. That was apparently used to record. Angie by the rolling stones I would appreciate it if you didn't see it as me getting in his way so much as an act of supreme generosity from a true innovator and friend to a humbled curators. I hope you will look into Eric's music after you've had a chance to listen to our uninterrupted conversation after these ads from our sponsors and you'll sit back relax and meet the portal. That is my friend. Illu Eric Lewis. I think we're all struggling with nutrition shelter in place however I think returning sponsor athletic. Greens has a pretty interesting offering. They make a powder which when mixed with water gives you an all in one health drink having seventy five vitamins minerals and whole foods. 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Every time so go over to get quip dot com slash portal. Right now to get your first refill for free. I feel free get quipped dot com slash portal spelled G. E. T. Q. U. IP dot com slash portal quip. They're that good habits company. Hello you found the portal. I'm here today with one of my favorite people in our guest. Eric Lewis Ilise ILLU I don't exactly know how to describe what he is and what he does but will start with pianist and we'll go from there because he's also a DJ screenwriter and a guy who Wanted one of these on the show is that it seems like everything he touches. He has to innovate so Olu. Welcome to the portal. So one of the things that just want to jump right into is that I'm super frustrated with where music has been recently and I think it's really interesting that you occur in our era from my perspective. A lot of our popular music has been getting simpler as it was getting more Intricate and more dependent on musicianship back in the seventies and a lot of what we're seeing is a shift to the studio to Simpler forms in you come along and for my money. You are innovating at the very highest levels of Jazz Rock and pop all at the same time. Are you seeing something like that where you were somehow like salmon swimming candidate to the stream or do you think that you're just a part of our age and In fact it's the same as it ever was frank. You first of all for saying that I think of myself as just an arch traditionalist in some sense part of the tradition of jazz with a nod of the hat or an eye on miles Davis. John Coltrane Art Tatum. Part of the tradition of jazz is to innovate and to en- did individual mandate has Carl. Young might say perhaps you note. That is the focus that I find myself orbiting and that's my pursuit. I've sort of painted myself in a corner in a lot of different ways and I use that sort of sense of being trapped or forced to commit to this thing that I've painted myself into a corner with and I use that particular situation that particular scenario to drive out and bring forth innovation as they say ingenuity was that necessity is the mother of ingenuity or mother of invention. Let's just the thing so for for people who don't know you and they're gonna not only know you hopefully but we have a beautiful Yamaha piano behind us. They're gonNA feel you shortly Let me just give you sort of a non musicians impression of where I've seen you innovating. Okay first of all you've taken what used to be called prepared piano where people would leave like bricks and paper clips in the back of the piano and you stuck your hand in there to coax all sorts of sounds out. That ad is such a rich dimensionality to. You're playing that you have access to many more degrees of freedom than a standard person. So you're playing in the back end in the front of the piano You've innovated this idea of what you called. Rock jazz which was a canonical innovation. In that originally Jr. when jazz was coming up people use the popular songs of the day is the substrate on which to improvise and you. You pointed out that you know. Autumn leaves is not a part of our current cannon. It's a part of our older Canon. So why not use the rock songs that everyone knows substrate to be true not to the letter to the spirit of jazz which is to use that which everyone knows and show them something they don't huge innovation like all of the best? Jerry Lewis Footage where? He kicks away the the bench and he's just playing standing there. You've got this insane powerful stance you use this armor to convey the aggression and I think I was talking about the violence of creativity. One of the reasons we're rate of creativity were afraid that it created creativity always a violent act. You came up with this thing called counter bop where you're bringing sort of Bach like counterpoint. Into a into the jazz idiom and achieving a level of independence we save your hands but if parts of your mind that I've never. I don't think I've ever seen at the at the keyboard to say nothing of how you've innovated. I'm starting to hear that you're DJ -ing from inside of the piano. It feels to me like everything you touch is a response to a constraint that you take on the constraints of the traditional and then you force yourself. Houdini like to break out of them. Is that an accurate description of what it is. That's driving this sort of explosion. I would say that most of it is accurate. Some of it would be argued from the perspective of branding and that sort of thing. But isn't that part of that issue right so so there's that you know that's part of creativity to and it's important as well so I would definitely say that counter. Bob Of all of the innovations is one. That's got the heaviest musical academic durability I would say that rock jazz was innovative. However I'm not the first person to play rock tunes rot covers on a piano. I think I might be the first person to sort of go at it with the ferocity and the physical degree of power and endurance and sort of fidelity to those pieces. So I think that I go about that. Particular endeavor an innovative way branding it as rock jazz. Perhaps that's innovative. And using that as a wedge to create an extension of my career. So you know. There's an innovative quality. There I would say counter bob which is a more recent situation more recent device that I've come up with. That's something that I can definitely say is innovative in the sense that I really haven't heard anyone. Mix Bach counterpoint with bebop. There's a lot of people that have brought Baroque counterpoint European counterpoint into jazz however and this is for all the people who are going to immediately pounce on this statement or scream wail that oh it has been done before actually no. It hasn't hasn't been done in a swinging way. Let's so the idea that jazz doesn't have to swing or that sort of kind of a thing right. That's going to be a fan. That particular worm hole right. There can go very deep but suffice to say that no playing Bach counterpoint. Or that sort of kind of a thing. Inside of Jazz is very different from counter. Bob which is why I call it counter bop right because not counterpoint. Right countered Bob. So that you have to Bud Powell or to Charlie Parker like lines full of all of their internal strife in internal acrobatic. We say Harmonica Lada Acrobatics. Working within the traditions of swing and the traditions of Bebop at the same time simultaneously There are a couple of pianists that do have some very highly developed left hands that are able to do it to a degree and perhaps a good degree. But I haven't heard anyone get it to the highest levels and I believe that I've found a way to say this because I'm not a jazz guy. I don't have some of the problems that you have. We just there's an elephant in the room. I WANNA kill it at the beginning. Which is jazz is such an intellectual pursuit and it's so discriminating as to the fine points of one's ability that it really is a Mount Olympus and it's left most of the world behind so you always have this problem that when you're talking the small number of jazz cats can really track what you're saying and who know the history and historians of the subject always pounds. Any simple statement is going to be wrong. The point is something that happened in you know with Django Reinhardt. way back when and you. It's incredibly intimidating to have to work within this tradition. One of the things I've most appreciated about you is the Wayne which you're willing to take on the constraints and totally overturn the Apple Cart at the same time. So that you really true to the spirit and I think the people who will resist you at I will thank you later if you think about. You Know Ray Charles for example. Who wasn't quite at this level of jazz mastery but as an innovator brought Gospel into the popular idiom boy. Did he catch hell for that or playing around with country? Idioms you know the black guy taking on supposedly white songs in showing what can be done with them. I think that one has to to to break sensibilities and norms and one of the things. I don't want to get caught up in his. Have you self censoring yourself? So I'm going to take full responsibility for all the wrong things that we say about jazz history on this. Show not your problem my problem. What do you see for people who don't understand the difference between? Let's say a miles Davis and Kenny. Gee nothing against Kenny. Gee what what are the top people in this field Do differently. How did America end up with the classical music? That was this advance this quickly. And who are the? Who are the really top priests at the Pinnacle of that summit? Were you okay? So that's a solid and complex multifaceted octopus question. Uh-huh which is fine. It's understandable okay. I'm a big Fan of science and I try to exploit the scientific method whenever possible so from perspective of the human animal. You know every sort of opinion about this or that sparse sound goes or as far as as far as certitude or validity for instance. If you put Kennedy's name next to Miles Davis's name. I think that it's difficult to have a truly acerbic scientific conversation about that. There's going to be those that feel as though Kenny G. is the greatest musician that's ever lived and there is going to be those that think that. Miles Davis is the greatest musician that ever lived. And then there'll be those that think that the idea of calling someone. The greatest musician that ever lived is itself. Yeah this flawed. I agree with that and has a bias. Inherent in that intrinsically undermines the conversation or the purity the period trap you in that. It's fine no no. It's fine I I feel as though it's important as far as in the process of me answering your question and in the process of you getting a sense of who I am and how you know I feel about things or how I classify things so that answers the first aspect of my approach to comparison guy so existential speaking. They're sort of the same. Depending upon for instance you could do a mind tack where you turn on television and switch the channel to something that just gives you white noise right now. You can do a mind tack where you could hear. Jingle bells inside of that white noise you can pretty much here. Whatever you're listening cage certainly explored ideas like that right. You can hear whatever you're listening for in something and this goes to politics this goes. This goes all the way out until all of human thought and bias endeavors right so I show. I'm a chess player so shy away from that particular battle line. I'm going to show away from putting a qualitative or a sort of validate valid validation oriented thing with regards to the Kenny G. versus. Let me take Kenny G. Out of it you know. It's a perfect example. Actually let me out of it. Okay go ahead is perfect bill. All right it's perfect perfect. The extremities. Always allow us to get the clarity. As far as I'm concerned that's a big aspect of what I look at when evaluating things you know the more extreme something is the more pronounced is pure it is and the easier we can see how it functions in reality. Our political climate is one of extremes these days so it's very clear everyone's agendas are very clear and so we can see how those things interact and where they agree where they disagree and you know the basis upon the basis the basis is based sees or whatever that word is the plural Basi's upon which each extreme side proffer you know their position to be concrete well anyway so when it comes to the aspect of classifying levels of greatness in musicians and stuff like that that becomes a difficult thing to nail down because of the movable objective criteria the attack ability of the objective criteria that we would try to put out there right. But we can talk about. We can talk about branding we can say or we can talk about physical difficulties. We can talk about things like that. I'm trying to remember. You know all of the question but I can say that far as who really inspires me. Yeah in in that sense. The highest level right at the highest level. You get to me. I'm highly inspired by John. Coltrane and a chance to tour with Elvin Jones who was his drummer sows able to be sorcerer's apprentice for two years amazing experience. I would say I really look up to many of the European classical masters stravinsky Liszt Chopin. Bach Beethoven Brahms Rachmaninoff. Debussy I look up to Hollywood film. Masters Martin Scorsese. Look German impressionistic master. F W Moreno. I mean there's so many geniuses in so many diverse fields to be inspired by and to me the actual physicality or device or technique that they're using to access the light show say the light is is somewhat secondary. I M inspire that these people touch the light I mean Simone biles this Jim stats out now. Is doing amazing things? The Williams Sisters Michael Jordan. Moving Steve Jobs. I mean Einstein Newton. There's just so many numerous people I'm inspired by the existential fact that they even exist. Okay well this. This is in large part with the portal is all about in just to open something up and I think this is the perfect episode to do. I haven't said it before there are. The end is often too low in any particular field. The number of true geniuses. Like if I think about physics there are lots of people who would be considered geniuses in any other appeal the top level. Five people are less than the last century. And you know and so you have to aggregate field by field by field if you WANNA see the pattern and in some sense. That's what I hear you saying is that you're looking. You're not going to let the instrument define WH- where you look for inspiration. What you port back into your own craft sure. There are specific dynamics to executing behaviors ideas upon a particular device or medium. The inspiration for that sort of thing in my case comes from multiple places which I'm sure is the same for many people as far as within the field who really inspires me like I. I would say John Coltrane an art tatum from the perspective of how they merged extreme extreme technical mastery of their given instruments have emerged that with a profound quote in house. I'm referring to in their own mind and they're all flesh up profound in-house understanding of where to put the music and what approaches to take similar to a chess player in the sense that a chess game. If you know how the pieces move okay cool. Yeah and if as long as you're functioning and some kind of way that you can either digitally or physically move pieces around you can be part of the game so now. How do the levels begin? How you get from there to Magnus Carlsen right. And so that internal game of okay. Why did you decide to defend this? When right back the greater attack was coming over here. You know that kind of stuff okay. So this is a great analogy with Jazz. A weird way which is if I go back to guy I think of as potentially the greatest creative genius jazz arguably would be Louis Armstrong. Okay sort of invented. Modern Jazz from the hot five slots nevins not dislike the Jelly Roll. Morton's of Will that is understandable to me in the same way that a game. Morphe- Nord Coupla Blanca. was understandable when chess was sort of in an earlier stage of its development but as both of these fields progressed. Always have this problem. Which is that. The greater play loses the casual observer. Like they can't figure out what's going on and I bring this up in the context of something I saw you hanging out with Herbie. Hancock warmed my heart I heard him described playing with miles and he said I hit a chord. That was so wrong and so off I wanted to clutch my head. And he said what I didn't know that there was a level of musicianship beyond this where miles heard the same chord and figured out the exact right notes to play that made it the right chord in arrears and it was a keyboard player Talking about a trumpet player. Who is fixing his mistake because he didn't hear it as a mistake. Just heard it as notes to played with and I think about that in in terms of like the improvisational idiom yes and there are levels levels and levels and they lose us as casual observers like would we have known. That moment happened if we were in that club or at that recording date if we weren't at the top level of the profession well. I think as they say if you have a good plumber. You never know anything's wrong right. So I think we're in the business of not letting the audience know that anything has gone wrong now analyzing the word wrong and that sort of kind of a thing. That's we're a matter of skill and understanding coming to play. We're talking about phenomenology at that point. We're talking about event horizons. We're talking about existential Azam at that point. Let me be slightly less obtuse in the world of film scoring. Yeah I think what Nahra harming was the one who made the famous statement about the great paradox that exists in music where piece of music could quote unquote be terrible You know it could be really bad. Have a lot of inconsistencies. Fail at a lot of different levels clearly be mediocre in its aspirations and his execution of those aspirations however however with the right visual apparatus going with the with the right film going with it suddenly that piece of music is the penultimate Apex Zenith of perfection for that particular moment. This is the great paradox so similarly when her played that cord yeah miles. Definitely aware of this type of paradox can come to that and put a sound with that transcends one aspect of scenario transcends one aspect of analysis and speaks as miles. Davis said a higher level of theory. It speaks to a higher level of theory. If you're coming from the perspective that any sound is just a sound free of bias. Free of predestination. You suddenly have expanded your toolbox and so then it just becomes a question of. How familiar are you with employing these court out of the box I love? What's the defects and manipulating that sort of kind of thing? You know this joke. That Leonard Bernstein put into West side story where he takes the the most dissonant interval the tri tone right and he goes up Komo which because the fifth which is like the most consonant. And then he's like the most beautiful word I ever heard Maria Right. And the whole idea. That the release from maximal tension into maximum sonority is the most gorgeous things he's GonNa take the ugliness and just serve it up as like. This is the feeling of just having met your true love. in screenwriting conflict and tension are the building blocks of your story. I mean that's drama. That's irony night. And they should be binary. These are the opposites life and death pain pleasure. Happy said all of these things opposites. There was a philosophy of aesthetic realism. That one of my professors in Manhattan School of Music with talk about and I don't want butcher their tenants. However one thing did stick out they would always talk about was how the coming together of opposites is how beauty forms or is the key component of beauty. And so you know while I might not necessarily call it beauty or put that term to it movement. Speaking of Counter Bob Writing of bebop. Speaking of improvisation movement is the core. I mean even getting out of neurosciences. The brain enables movement moving topics around moving pieces moving music moving people movement movement movement dance movement choreography movement movement. How you use harmony. How you use writing how you use words all of these things work towards that same thing movement Einstein said when asked about the universe when asked about God. Something's moving. Yeah there's something moving and yet he froze it in space time. The whole concept of space time freezes the wave and so there's something profound about the fact that his insight arguably got rid of movement by putting time as part of the substrate so you know and this is GonNa come up when we talk about cubism where you are been On this new project which is again once once again seemingly increasing the dimensionality of independence like parts no longer just two parts of your hands being independently multiple parts of the same hand or now independent And that goes back to like do shop with the new descending a staircase which was a somewhat something of a reference to space and time where the tube of the nude like one human form creates a tube over time. Do you see that you're playing with sort of concepts that are coming out of this. Science inspired exploration in the tension even internal to somebody like Einstein is it movement or is it frozen. I'm quite inspired by neural anatomy. And I'm quite inspired by physics. A good buddy of mine is far more articulate about math and physics than I am. He's a big devoted of that stuff and he's a musician. His name's Marcus Miller not the BASS player. He's a saxophone player but he's really interesting and so he and I talk about stuff like that. I tend more tours the neural analytical side of things So I'm very interested in the huma. Culet Hmong Cumulus. I'm interested in the hippocampus and the Corpus Corpus callosum in how the different hemispheres of the brain enable movement which plays directly into my coordination. So I explore those kinds of spaces. I explore how we perceive time more less so than the actual substrate of time itself. And although I do ponder those things I am very concerned with. What's going on under the hood? You know what's going on in the mind. I like to analyse transcripts of conversations between someone who has dementia versus someone who has Alzheimer's and listen to them. Talk to each other. Why and how understand each other because to me? That's the same as like two pieces of music. Being played at the same time you know because when something makes no sense yet be language level. Yeah it's incoherent the only way that we have to try to glean anything from it is by analyzing it from a different perspective so if I analyze it as music that they like the rhythm of my voice that you see what. I'm saying that these are the kinds of techniques and manners methods of analysis that start to come into how I go about assessing genius pursuing genius and pursuing challenges and pursuing. Fluidity at what I do and so getting back to that question of Miles Davis and Kenny G. A game we're starting. We're starting to get into topics that form the substrate of analysis. These are the all. These topics are the components of a platform of analysis through which I ponder the event horizon of of music and musicians. So Light Lex. Luther said to Otis in Superman. There's some people who can swerve. Some people can movement some people look at the contents of a bubble gum wrapper. Yeah and P. figure out the secret of the universe and I'm saying so that's the thing so if we want to pejoratively called Kenny g. A bubble gum wrapper but yeah. They're accusing you that saying. Yeah I'm just saying but so many people normally do this is why I'm the reason I just folks at home. The reason I chose Kenny. Gee was that he was accessible. I agree and just like Bubblegum bubblegum would argue people would argue right that his music is bubblegum compared to a filet Mignon. Or if you will where I was going next with that is is that if I think about two records of miles Bitches brew versus kind of Blue Shirt bitches brew was pretty challenging even though it was trying to be a little bit more on the Rock Idiom for kind of blue. Despite the fact that it is unbelievable musicianship was inviting and it became so iconic because it worked at so many different levels. It didn't intrinsically tell me you know By Gough Kid. This is for experts. Only it said this is the highest level of musicianship. And it's going to work In a way that you can put it on without having to you know. Just break your head over when I think about art tatum. When I used to put the needle on my vinyl art tatum albums I would only do it. If I was in some place to receive the brilliance of this person that I could not possibly understand he was playing so fast and so technically at such a different level. I mean I would. Would it be fair to say that many pianists consider are tatum? The absolute maybe even the top guy ever to play jazz piano many would and then there would be those claim that it's not that musical contrary to that and that's okay but just be some. Some people have never heard of our tatum at all. At another level. There's different times for different things. Different moods to every two. Yeah Right. You know there's situations where art tatum's best would be inappropriate or counterproductive. That's what very few circumstances in my life. Do I think. Wow I really just want to hear some art tatum. The only situation. I'm when I really feel that for myself and again not as a musician is when I want to remember what the human mind is capable of. And this is the great conundrum. This is the great paradox. Because as we were saying someone could hear Kennedy's silhouette friends and experienced profound tranquility. And serendipity listen to Yanni and get that. There's people if you go to youtube you can look in a comment and someone would say. Oh He's the Mozart of our generation. Something like that so incredulity. Yeah is there's I'm sure of course you've heard of it the the fallacy of incredulity fallacy. Where just because it's impossible for you to find believable makes it untrue? So similarly there's only a certain threshold that classifying or dissecting validity or worth can go and you know. Put it to you this way. There's a story about Charlie Parker where he was at a club and he was listening to a guy play that was to everyone else's opinion. You know really weak but Charlie Parker was like really into checking it out and he was able to hear things inside of what that guy was doing what this guy was going for that gave him ideas and I think when I was first starting out rock jazz. That was something that I experienced in a different kind of way. Where when I first started hearing some of these young bands and I would hear some of their live shows on the Internet at that time on Youtube I would think to myself man. This doesn't really sound great. What the people are loving it. Yeah and so. Then that caused me to have a different thought process about Maybe other aspects that are in play that connect the people's enjoyment of things and so it really called some things in the question. You know it really caused me to think about things from multiple perspectives and basically threw me into the ocean. Suddenly it's just like what we see in politics where you can feel really strongly about a particular thing. Then you can find out that there's others that feel even potentially for the exact same reasons that you feel strongly about a thing for those exact same reasons. They feel the exact opposite then and it can be very very incredulous sort of kind of situation. I bring up this example of Dolly Parton writing this brilliant Song Joe. Lean and if you look at the lyrics. They're incredibly tight and economical conveying so much more through implication than they even state explicitly. Jack White heard the song re recorded at the white stripes turned it into a pre murder ballad singing the female song from a male in a male voice and Dolly. Parton I believe wrote him a letter saying you managed something about guitar but you understand nothing about women but I think the joke was on her that she'd written such a brilliant song that she didn't realize that it was now approachable from a completely different angle that she hadn't had the last word on her own songs. So there are all of these weird and that reminds me of the difference between Newtonian physics model versus Einstein's physics models in the quantum theory and things of that nature. How I might be mistaken. This correct me. If I'm wrong that classical physics start to break down at the quantum level. You would say that classical physics is recoverable from the deeper model but only as an approximation to the true physics within a regime and ee. Nobody has thrown away. Newtonian physics because of Einstein. Because where it works. You don't need the extra Einsteinian perspective. Now Val an amazing slave trap. Did you try something? No you just said something cool though you just said something that blows the whole thing. Open very nicely tell me well. We don't need necessarily ex. We don't need to Discard X. In this location or we don't necessarily need to bring in why to this location so we can substitute art tatum for Rachmaninov. Yeah we can algebraic plug in Kenny G. Miles we can plug in whichever artists or things that we want to in a thing an had that same exact dichotomy of this works in this particular space. Eric I totally see going with that. So similarly let's just say people want to have a romantic eden at actors. Look there is an aspect of this that I'm fighting which you're making a very deep point. Whatever moves you whether it's the way the performer looks or the feel of the evening. There is the effect on the on the audience and the listener from having been present at a performance. There is also something which I can't get escape. Which is you're just at a different level than just about anybody I ever meet and you can play around with that and I play a little bit of piano. I know when I'm being when I'm in the presence of greatness and you are at a different level than almost anybody I've ever met and you don't have to say anything back but it's an uncomfortable thing to here. We can talk about the fact that who knows. Maybe Taylor Swift is as musically interesting as miles Davis. It's a reasonable. Let's not what I'm saying that that's not what I'm saying. Okay let's look at it from a different perspective another perspective. Let's look at it from a DJ perspective all right what does the DJ's Java Dj's job one of the jobs of a DJ is to Curi- yeah and present music right for people for a particular occasion to elicit either a certain response or to provide an atmosphere that venue or the client chirp is interested in now? If we take that downs who a microcosmic level inside of our own head. Take it to the Piano. For instance thank you to these instrumental scenarios each note that. I decide to play in that. Nanosecond that microseconds decide to play it. That's the same as me. Di Jiang that note is a track. Now imagine how many knows that she would hear in the average performance and then in my case. I'm going to play a zillion right. Yeah so then. That's zillion tracks that. I've dropped in a particular moment or particular session so I'm trying to get into how mental processes are uniform. Whether it's at hyper slow speed. Yeah or hyper fast speed. Yeah the same process there. So this conversation that we're having might seem nebulous. Or maybe even evasive on my part or vague or non committal. I should tell people that in general when you and I talk what I get is a time release understanding of your points over the next three or four days as they finally make sense to me. So I'm I'm GonNa Challenge my audience. I told them the beginning of this show that I would never spoon feed them. You are more challenging person to talk to because quite frankly your perspective is just richer and you speak in an unusual fashion and quite frankly it takes me dazed understand what conversation. We just add usually. Well I appreciate the accolades and I love you to eric and I really love. You admire what you've done for us and I'm GONNA blow people's mind by just letting you be you but it is important to know that these levels of being exist and that's part of why is the show is called the portal. You are in touch with something that most people have. No ideas even available. Well I will say that. I do find inspiration. Having recovered from heavy depression and heavy panic attacks even sort of debilitating ones that it's inspiring for me to try to share perspectives. That hopefully some people could use to get a different angle on their sufferings. Say like when I talk about some of these things are when I answered your questions. A certain type of way some of these techniques some of these ways than managing myself also helped me manage stress. Help me manage. Depression helped me manage panic attacks. And you've had anger. I've seen anger. Certainly anger control things of that nature fury rich and it also helps me get higher chess rating too because well think about the godfather for a moment remember how the James Caan character sunny. Yeah because Carlo was being you know he was being super aggressive his sister but then the bad guys realized. Oh that's the way to get him out there. 'cause he'll jump on that and so then they got him at Tobu. Yeah they manipulate it. His anger they related one aspect that was predictable about him and manipulated that to get out there. So similarly I think within ourselves there certain weak spots or different things that can manipulate us whether we want to or not into bad situations or whether it's a micro bad situation or macro bad situation and so it's important to develop techniques to manage those kinds of things. Ergo Bach's well tempered clavier so always wondered why because as growing up as a kid I was like why is it. Cold well tempered. What does that mean? I only know one kind of temper. Well well anyway. All of these particular devices and techniques and responses all play to try to find the most accurate answer and find the most accurate way to approach a situation. And that's a very musical thing. How do we approach this? We see chest to. How do we approach this position? Your move you've got to make a move clock's ticking. How do we approach this? You can see it in screenwriting okay. I've got this idea. I want to have this character. Save the world. How do we approach this okay? I might the piano. The people are waiting for the next tune. Okay I've got this idea. I'm playing something with my left hand and I've got this idea that I wanNA bring. I've got this energy that I'm feeling I've got this inspiration. But how do I approach? How do I bring this thing in to existence existential reality right aesthetic reality? How do I do this? Intentions oftentimes are not enough right. You have to match up with execution. That's when we start to get into the conversation of levels now again it can become a debated and subjective thing and that particular stalemate the getting back to the Kennedy Miles Davis thing. Yeah that particular stalemate only gets broken by something objective when we're faced with subjectivity. That seems endless. And that's stalemate gets broken by the simple question of okay who's going to pay for it ultimately so who's going to hire miles Davis right. Who's going to hire cagey? Now that can get to the lament that you were referring to earlier in the big picture. Problems of like the comedian's comedian can't get hired but all the people who can get hired look to that person and they say that's the guy who's really got it going on this. Is the confusion about this now. The thing quite you know I'm just GonNa over here and overwhelming presence. I'm GonNa try to overwhelm you right back. Okay one of the things that I love about your playing is is that you're playing at this. Incredibly technical level it's so inventive. But you bring so much soul and so much showmanship and the branding. The whole thing's going on whatever layer of the stack? I WANNA plug into. It's available to me if I want to just have the most beautiful tunes. You're providing that if I want to see something new and innovative it's happening and what I've seen is you know and this is a little bit off color. It's like you make love to a room of three thousand people at a time. And everybody's locked in there. Everybody's in the pocket everybody's feeling the groove and then we're thinking and we're feeling at different levels. I think maybe one of the mistakes here is that I need to get you in front of the piano. I have you play us some stuff and then when we talk about these levels. I'm not going to be quite is back footed. I should probably should have done the Kenny G. thing just because well people will infer that. I meant something from it that I didn't but it's not so be it. I just I disagree with you all right. I think that it was a perfect. I think that it's actually a spectacular thing because it's really going to be a type of provocative and easily recognisable. Maybe people distinction. Yeah well yeah I mean it gets back to one of the other points that you're making with regards to distinction yet. How do we tell things apart? So we have to use things that are very distinct in order for us to have a distinction. The conversation I mean. That's the same thing that happens in great film if your premise. Or your opening part of your film LEX. Yeah a strong enough of a distinction about a situation that particular lack deficiency is going to haunt the film the whole time you know The premise of dirty dancing. There's this professional dancer. And there's this competition and he wants to win that his partner ends up having and super dangerous super harmful. I guess illegal just terrible abortion and then there's this rich grow whose father is a doctor who saves her life that woman's life but now she can't dance and so then the daughter now who is a Klutz has to be taught how to dance so that this guy can go ahead and when the competition but it has to happen secret now because the father that however it struck me it. Blew me away that such an amazingly painful controversial topic right such as abortion such an amazingly painful excruciatingly mind-bending Lee said topic in divisive divisive yet could missile. That story yet. This is a dance at the finale. The dance in the finale. We see that at weddings on online. You can see different couples trying to do that. So when it came out in the cinematics or as far as storytelling the power of such a topic that seems what does that. What does that have to do with dance competent but think about it as a screenwriter? I thought about it if you take that out right. Then you're sitting with pen and paper and you're like okay. Well I've got this dance competition. I've got this dancer. I've got this Klutz so the the good guy you know. The great dancer needs needs to teach klutz right how to dance so that he can win the competition. Now if you replace that other scenario with multiple Kaiser problems you'll find that it's hard to get something as compelling as that however that person took a heavy risks now the screenwriter was a woman so then yeah screenwriters a woman and she was a Mambo Dancer and she was. Her father was a doctor and she went to country clubs. And so she experienced this dickens. Like type of life where you know. There's a rich and poor and all these kinds of things and I'm sure her father was warning her about the The the dangers of sexual activity and you know pitfalls what. He's seen and stuff like that so she put that all together so perhaps because she had an experience with and she's a woman that she was able to speak on those subjects so amazingly an she had the understanding of how to bring those subjects together because she lived it right now however it wouldn't occur to the average person but this is what we call genius. You know what I'm saying. That's genius and it's lasted the test of time. But that's my whole point with why the whole opening and this gets back to what you're talking about when we're talking about genius and things of that nature. You did a genius thing yet. You're trying to get me to discount that or go away from that. But I'm identifying your genius and that ties to what I was saying about how Charlie Parker here a guy that people will say. What what you're talking about. But he's listening intently. That's the whole point us. All these things come together is he. Unquestionably aided this podcast is the example of the thing that we were talking about in the podcast. These are wheels within wheels this this universes within universes quantum it all breaks down at this level with a hold of this levels. Why we love. How all that kind of thing? So you did it on the very beginning your instinctive thing you enforce you choose those names. Yeah you naturally shows those names. All I'm doing is the same thing that I would do inside of my mind if I get an idea. The sensor filter in my mind is like wow. That's actually pretty cool. Because I'm referencing all these other things I'm seeing all this stuff is just like a chess game. I'm seeing the check me. I'm like wow. This king is positioned over here. Okay I've got to do this in such a way that by the time. I'm going to spring this trap. She doesn't even see that subtle. Move He made actually provide the funny thing is I think I chose Kenny. Gee if I recall correctly because I think I remember hearing that he had he had actually been an innovator with some circular breathing technique and that he was somebody who was seen as being middle of the road but actually a good deal above that in musicianship so I think I had some different process. I wish it was that I had some some super clever idea but it was probably only one one or two moves deep. But thank you for saying it's still functions. What goes through. I get to dance with you so so you get to do what miles did to my Herbie Hancock and just like in dirty dancing. He had to take what she was doing right. And from what I've understood about dancing in that particular format. It's the man's role in traditionally to showcase the female. Yeah he's more of basically a poll static figure that's showcasing all the things that she can. That's what makes a good male dance partner. I don't know how things were as far as how are identifying on political roles these days however I think traditionally that's kind of how beautiful aspect to this concept that healthy meal female relations a heterosexual context after. Do with passing power back and forth so the idea that he might have the responsibility of leading in which people will say. Well that's an impressive act and but then if the ideas no but it's not just that I'm leading. My role is also to become the substrate to showcase or abilities These kinds of dynamics have broken as we've gotten very simplistic and saying well. That's that's power that's oppression and not recognizing that these things are part of an interwoven whole right so the idea's that if I if I evaluate myself as a podcast or and I'm just thinking about myself and I'm not thinking about the dynamic of the conversation because I'm just learning. This is the eight episodes in or something like that Yeah the it's a question of. I need to learn more. Yes and because of the improvisational idiom that podcasting is so right. And improvisation is everywhere. Everyone's doing it each word. We speak is improvised withdrawing from vocabulary. We're putting concepts and ideas to sound. Were used by utilizing these instruments. And we're bringing out energy and we're moving things around to create a type of movement progression and these are all the things that get depicted in art all over the place so a lot of times. It's very easy to find. Genius or brilliant brilliant sees. The hard part can be too after you've managed to identify it. Yeah accurately that is to stay with it. And then bring him enough tradition or enough substantiation to further demonstrate. Why that thing is genius? That's been my mission in this particular conversation. I thought pivoting between the Kenny G. and the Miles Davis Element was brilliant provided such a great foundation for the conversation. Because we could have gone we can go further. We can talk about how Kenny G. Racially is very interesting. In fact that things that was one of the things that inspired me as Illu was the idea that there's a huge number of black people that really got into this guy playing soprano saxophone. They were really into it and they made him rich. You know. Much to the consternation of many black jazz musicians who couldn't understand how a white musician like that could get such loyalty. I knew nothing money from. Do you have an answer? To target demographic well some things transcend quote quote color. It is what it is. Something's transcend that for different reasons for different reasons. So part of new was also an experiment. Because I was thinking. Well that's interesting. What if I tried that in reverse what if I a quote unquote black guy from a murder capital from Camden New Jersey? Yeah look it up. Folks Camden New Jersey. There's a rolling stone article called apocalypse. New Jersey the sad story of Camden to get a sense of where? I'm getting a native of that place. What would happen if I who spent my life? Learning Miles Davis learning art. Tatum learning all of this traditional quote. Black Music Yeah. What if I learned how to play the rolling stones? What if I learned how to play? Nirvana what if I learned how to play that stuff because when I was doing the traditional thing I won the biggest competition in Jazz. I got a full scholarship. The loneliest monk competition one felonious Monk International Piano Competition. I'd also gotten a full scholarship to Manhattan School of Music with which I graduated. Dean's list all these types of accolades. I toured the world went in Marcellus. Yeah but I couldn't get a record deal which is always I mean this. What am I talking about your anger right? I couldn't get a record day. I was so flabbergasted to hear this and then the idea that you figured out this hack which right which is and that's what we get into here so we're talking about Kenny G. Miles as it goes deep into a lot of aspects for me because I looked at him I looked at Jagna looked at liberace right and I was like. Wow they have massive followings if you took them to downtown. New York's jazz. Seeing how distinctive would they be as far as skill level goes relative to your average college musician or post college musician so then that was where I got the idea to one of the places that I got an idea doing experiment. Well what would happen if a quote unquote black guy from the hood decided to start expertly playing sweet home Alabama which I ended up playing on America's got talent `Nigma of that the speaking of elephants in the room right right the elephant in the room. Is You see this guy? I mean sure. The average person's say oh I don't see color. Oh wow you're just playing sweet home Alabama but you know I don't know I don't think so. I don't think it's just that but either way that's my point so I sought to see if the same thing could be true in reverse and sure enough. It did now. I didn't write my own music the way Kenny G. wrote I didn't use drumbeats and things of that nature and so there's relativity as far as you know degrees of success with that however I did achieve very okay but like even even the situation just you have to rip off. You know the movie. Victor Victoria the story of a woman playing a man playing a woman a female female impersonator. Right right okay right. So you're telling me when you do satisfaction that you're actually swerving and feeding the rolling stones black back to white audiences potentially very visibly black man on the other hand. There's this beautiful video of Keith Richards. Taking apart setting satisfaction. And he says you want to know where what it is and he starts playing it as like Mississippi Blues on the guitar and so you realize that he took this this riff off of the V. Six flat seven typical blues pattern disguised it. And now you're sort of weirdly. The black guy playing a white guy playing black music feeding it back to white audiences and in some sense giving this really beautiful and friendly middle finger to this whole notion of race dividing us that we have to both noted because it does exist and it influences us no matter how much we deny on the other hand it doesn't have to preoccupy constantly and be the only thing I I always think about You know this race and I q point that keeps coming up. I never see this happening among people who are deep into music because the contributions have been so profound from everywhere that it just is like why are why. Are you exploring these ideas that clearly don't capture? Who has contributed? And how much has been done for me? Chess has been a great liberator or great questioner of some of these more quote race driven concepts because I learned chess from basically black street hustlers in Washington Square Park. And they have I speed chess blitz. Guys Yeah so they had. Great aspirations are sorry admiration and aspiration towards some of the Russian. Gm's and just to hear these men who are the epitome of Seoul the the epitome of quote blackness. Yeah flavor all of that stuff rhythm all of that stuff to hear them use about capital Blanco or to pull out a game names of each or towel or some of these great masters to go over those games and say we'll see he's a killer here. No hold on. Hold on wait a minute. Now we've got watched the Bishop. Watch the bishop boom. Okay okay. He saw that you saw me coming. Just all the snag getting into a conversation. More Cisco Parker Tigrayan Grand Petrosian. The player and these guys were like convinced that somehow he hadn't been understood for for the the soul that he was bringing to the game right so for me to get around. That was very striking because at that time. I was really starting to feel you know. My depression was coming in. My panic was coming in because in my thoughts. I'm like wow. I've won the competition. I've toed the line full. Scholarship came from Camden full scholarship. Graduating all this stuff. But the powers that be. Don't find me. I guess marketable enough to have me be representative of their agency in the form of recording artists. So I really started to have some really mind-bending we rage full and you know things going on in my head and I noticed that there was some other artists quote unquote white artists. That were starting to experiment with rock in the Jazz Lane. They were getting jazz record deals but they were working with rock concepts overtly questioning. Does jazz have to swing and things of that nature that me from the wind. Marcellus purist background aspiration. I would never question. Does Jazz. Have TO SWING RIGHT. So there was a lot of anger starting to build up from a couple of different places from you could say a political aspect and also from a personal aspect. Because I can't even get a record deal here. Like how good do I have to play? What do I have to prove here? And ultimately who were you guys to judge whether I'm worthy of a record deal or you know I it kind of got into these kind of simplistic and superficial anger in this one of the reasons to be blunt about it and since I heard you play I I don't know to ten years ago but maybe person a little bit less. I've often thought I have to be promoting this guy. Not because he's not GonNa get famous on his own but because he shouldn't have to say what doesn't need. It just doesn't need to be said when I watch you in a room. Everyone knows something. Amazing happened if I could just tell one story from our personal life. We were having dinner my wife and I with Sam Harris. He was fading in San Francisco. And I said Hey. Do you WANNA go over here. Friend of mine play a little piano. It didn't sound very inviting. I wasn't telling me anything more says find fits quick so we get them over to this place in your there. We go over and there's this old beat up steinway. And there's a crowd of people who were sitting around waiting to hear you play and this one woman will not be quiet. She's just not calming down. She's on her phone. And you say something like Hey something. Amazing is about to happen. You're about to have a life altering experience. You need to be in the right frame of mind and everybody in the room. Who Knew You knew what was about to happen and everyone in the room? Who didn't know you said what nothing nothing. Nobody talks like this. The room quieted down. I've never seen Sam Harris. So deep in meditation he was his whole world was re woven with with the music. You were playing. And he was just speechless at the end of it and we all stayed up late into the night There is something In this which is it doesn't need to be said. I don't know why it's so hard to get through because the music does speak for itself but I think it goes back to your just wheels within wheels curation one of the things I wanted to do and you were one of the people I had in mind when I started this podcast was I wanted to show people what is possible in their lives. And I'll be honest with you have to separate effects on me. Sometimes I hear you and I just sit down at the piano and I WANNA play. Play play and get better and other times. I don't WanNA touch it. I don't WanNa look at it because I know I'm never going to be at that level and it is difficult and uncomfortable to work with genius and to and to see it in field in which you're just playing and you're never going to aspire to be at the top of what you might be able to achieve that particular night. I know that you're paraphrasing or recalling. I know how I get when I feel as though there's a person that's violating things for others so I don't recall my exact words. I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't call attention to myself in the sense of. Hey I'm about to do something amazing in that sense if I did. It wasn't from a narcissistic standpoint. Erica was it she thanked. I don't know if you remember. This came up to me. And she said he was absolutely right. That that said I just want to clarify that because I don't want to create the impression of a naked narcissistic egotistical kind of thing. That's not my point. You did say something like that but it was the feeling of it if I if I mean. It's just that she was ruining a situation. You've got Sam Harris there you've got people there. And she's bringing a scenario that ultimately no one else was going to sort of deal with it and so economic choice for everybody and so then I had to make choices. Well this is the thing. How often do you have a conductor who stops a performance of an orchestra of fifty people? Because SOMEBODY'S CELL. Phone goes off right. This is now a common feature. We don't make the room for opening our hearts and I think to be blunt about it. I'm sorry if I told the story in a way that didn't convey it but what what actually happened was that we all did have a communal experience that we're still talking about you. Know and I. I can tell you that there are small number performances. The time I saw prince opened for the rolling stones The time that I saw a clarinet player blow dizzy. Gillespie off stage that. I'd never heard of name Tony Scott. They're very small number of things that actually just change your life and this is one of those was one of those nights on the other side. I've come to understand over time. What aspects of my playing and also what aspects of my personal behavior or presentation have been detrimental to my progression in certain aspects of the business. So I also want to make sure that I bring in that aspect too because it's very immature also to come with a knights templar kind of perspective. We've seen that. We've heard that and that also is not brilliant because the fact of the matter is there many reasons and many contributing factors many dynamics that play into careers into helium into buoyancy and the like and so over time. I've come to understand a lot more. About how energy works and how. I've been very good at transforming the energy in a room and bringing people to these types of Xi's however there was another aspect that I was less concerned with not think that because of to panic attacks in the depression and stuff like that I was a lot less sensitive to an anger as well however as time has gone by. I've gotten better improve my technique and I've grown through anger and I've found ways to harness anger and panic attacks and depression and bring it into the music and a powerful way and in a technical way it's caused me to even more vision and my chest rating is improved some able to analyze myself and realize just because I could raise the roof on a place didn't necessarily provide a blank check for me to get a record deal. They're looking at other aspects and those aspects are important to like see this is. This gets a game back to the Kenny G. Miles Davis on Construct the model because one thing that I didn't understand if I'm going to work with the record label. Yeah then. I'm making an implicit statement there. I'm saying that I want to be a part of their family right. I'm saying that I want to represent them at multiple levels. Now I was coming from a very uncompromising place I was coming from very narrow. Sh we could say place. I also was sub aware of how I sounded in certain aspects these days. I've come to understand as I've gotten so much better I've come to understand. Wow there's so many other aspects you didn't have the luxury back then. I mean if I can be honest about it so I'm not really ready to be in front of the world is very terrifying having a podcast. Because I don't know my stuff sorted out but nobody does. Nobody does and one of the things back. Then you were. You were a terrifying guy. Because you were completely uncompromising I get in there and I try to have musical conversation with you and you're very patient with me but inevitably you know it shows the levels that were at and you know. I could see how exacting you were. You've been driving yourself. You're gonNA competition with you alone so far as I can tell it the piano and you've been pushing yourself farther and farther and I I love the fact that you're getting the recognition and that it's giving you the luxury to look at yourself and the as your mental state goes up. The vision expands your chest rating improved but we also have to honor that it may be that it is as a developmental stage and just to turn it back to the Kenny G. Miles thing that we want to shed where we were. I was in a narrow place I was in an angry place. But sometimes that stuff is like colostrum. It's needed to get going and you have to go through those periods where you've got that anger in fewer because that's what causes things to progress and that advanced. Your story is quite is quite the paradise. That I'll have to concede that that that's very true. Had I not been so angry? Not had those issues. Rock would've never appealed to me because what rock enables wants to express. Yeah I wouldn't have had that to express. The lyrics of rock are very different from the lyrics. That you'll find in a Gershwin or a jazz tune and it was those lyrics that provided me some escape from Lititz Casarsa you to neil young and screw you to the governor of Alabama in the song right and to your point about swing the word rock transition from rock and roll where rock is a rocking motion. It's a verb to rock where it's led Zeppelin and it's just a giant stone edifice and it doesn't move right in the same question comes up with With Jazz but let me ask you. Can I lure you to the piano? And sort of explore some of these ideas with me at the keyboard and give my listeners. A taste of what we're talking about yup fantastic Here question the independence of the line that. I'm assuming that is the good chunk Improv The News Good Were a Sir Ooh Ah AWW All right world with Air News you all over the Internet where you buy music. I'd never seen a white light.

Miles Davis Kenny G. Einstein Newton Eric Noam Chomsky Bob Writing US John Coltrane NPR Donald Trump Charlie Parker America Eric Lewis Hillary Greens Jimi Hendrix Ann COULTER Harvard Kennedy Tracy Chapman
Ep. 912 - The End Of Legitimate Elections

The Ben Shapiro Show

58:45 min | 1 year ago

Ep. 912 - The End Of Legitimate Elections

"Democrats prepared to declare the twenty twenty election illegitimate a terrorist attack strange. US Saudi relations and the Media Take Nikki. Haley wildly out of context. I'm Ben Shapiro. This is the Ben Shapiro. Show the Ben Shapiro. Show is sponsored by express. VPN stand up for your digital rights visit expressive VPN VPN DOT COM slash. Ben Hope you had a wonderful weekend. We're back here on Monday. And that means it's impeachment time man. It's time for some peach mcso. Where are we an impeachment gate? Twenty nineteen well. The Democrats are apparently planning to have this vote. Maybe before Christmas. They're not talking about having this impeachment. Vote as early as this week and they are rushing this thing through today's as impeachment hearings at the Senate judiciary the house. Judiciary Committee rather they feature a Bevy of democratic lawyers. Because that's just what you need. I'm very convinced now that I know a bunch of Democratic Oh credit cards and hacks like Barry Burke are speaking. This is totally changed. My opinion of everything Berry Burke is a longtime democratic partisan. He's written a bunch for the Brookings Institute. He suggested that trump was guilty of collusion with Russia. He suggested that trump was guilty of obstruction with regards muller investigation. He was working for the House Judiciary Committee as early as February. Has she left his law offering to work for the House Judiciary Committee in February. Now you may be asking yourself. Well why was he working for the House. Judiciary Committee in February when Ukraine stuff only began to happen happen in like May and June and the answer is because Berry Burke has been pro impeachment for a very long time but now we are supposed to take it with the utmost seriousness when the Democrats call for people people who have been for impeachment for years to say that actually they discovered an impeachable offense. I mean it's amazing as you may unbelievably enough berry. Burke who really has been in favor of impeachment been for years believes that the president impeach- based on the grainstuff. So here's Bury Council for the House. Democrats testifying what house. Democrats want to hear which the House Democrats should be. President trump all the constitutional experts who testified recognize that obstructing. An investigation is an impeachable offense. But here the offense we're talking about Out that's being interfered or obstructed with is interfering with this very election. That's coming up and I submit to you given what happened. The Department of Justice investigation given. What's happening here? If in fact president trump can get away with what he did again. Our imagination is the only limit. Ah what president trump may do next or what a future president may do next to try to abuse his or her power to serve his own personal interests over the the nation's interest. Your imagination is the only limit. Wow I've pretty wild imagination as it turns out what would it be considered abuse of power for president say said directly to the Russian government that he would grant them extra flexibility on foreign policy. Should they be nice to him before the election would that would that be an abuse of power per se. You know just before an election like Barack Obama did in twenty twelve. Haven't like Bill Clinton. Were taking money from Chinese cutouts back in the nineteen ninety six election and simultaneously declassifying nuclear secrets with that. Would that be a problem again. Again it turns out that the presidency has a long history of manipulation with regard to politics. But why are we supposed to take very seriously the answers because the media want you to take burke seriously but there's something that steeper that's going on with regard to the the House Democrats impeachment effort and it really has very little to do with the offensive supposedly committed by trump with regards Ukraine and again. None of this is defense from activity in Ukraine other than to say this is not warranting of impeachment. The Democrats wildly overplayed their hand. Here they should have gone for censure. If they'd gone for censure censure they probably could appeal buffet fewer Republicans to vote in favor of censoring trump. But they went from Peach Mint and that makes the Republican case very easy. which is you don't have the necessary goods on president trump for impeach him? But it really isn't about that it's about something else and something that actually is is quite dangerous for the republic. Not just misusing impeachment which again. I'm not super bothered by parties. Ladies misusing impeachment impeachment was always a political power and much more bothered by something else. A real danger. I think to the Republican. It doesn't come from presidential abuse of power. That's always been danger. It's something that's that's a little different this time. We'll get to that in just one second first. Let's talk about how you keep your house safe. So the fact is that I am deeply worried about security all the time so is my wife always deeply worried about security pretty not just because we happen to be somewhat public but also because we're just paranoid about security won't make sure that our house is safe while the way that we keep our. How safe is we rely on? Ring and ring is great especially during holidays. Because there's people who ring your doorbell and you don't know whether it's somebody from Fedex or whether it's news ring doorbell to see whether your homes they can break into your house will ring ring allows you to actually see who is at the door before you open the door. It allows you to unless you monitor that from thousands of miles away. You'RE GONNA have to be home in order to do that. Ring helps you stay connected to your home. I'm from anywhere. So if there's a package delivery or a surprise visitor you get an alert and able to see here and speak to the person at your door from your phone. If you're on the go this season whether it's across town across the country you can check in anytime for much-needed holiday peace of mind you can also monitor Ringel set up a ring of security around your house and you can actually monitor all the areas of your house outside. I really is fantastic. As Listener Special Holiday offer on ring. Welcome Kit available jet right now with the ring video doorbell to chime pro the ring. Welcome Kit has everything you need to keep. Keep an eye on home no matter what this holiday season brings with ring. You're always at home. Just go to ring dot com forward slash Ben again. That's ringing dot com forward slash Ben. Additional terms may apply ring Dot Dot Com forward slash benefactor line. Let's get my kids safe. You can definitely Ryan. It's keep your family safe to rededicate lately. Ring Dot com forward slash Ben for the holiday deal. Go check it out right now okay. So why are the Democrats doing all of this. Because they're setting up in arguments can be made about twenty twenty th they also made about twenty sixteen. We have now had four collections. In the past twenty years or so in which Republicans have won the presidency. Red Bush two thousand Bush two thousand four Donald Trump two thousand sixteen and maybe Donald Trump twenty twenty or have donald trump would win in two thousand twenty. Not One of those elections have Democrats seem legitimate. Hit Two thousand four. They said was illegitimate. Because Bush was not legitimately elected two thousand. They said that Al Gore was elected. Didn't thousand because Gore won the popular vote despite the fact that Gore did not actually win the vote in Florida and they tried to manipulate as much as they could. They tried to count certain ballots and not count other ballots in order to achieve their desired desired result. But bottom line is Bush won that election. Hey Democrats never accepted that. He won that election. Which means that everything that he did in terms of shaping? The Supreme Court afterward is illegitimate according to Democrats two thousand four because two thousand according to Democrats was legitimate is also illegitimate two thousand sixteen according to Democrats is illegitimate not just because trump lost the popular vote but but because of quote unquote Russian. Interference doesn't matter by the way that they still have not shown how that Russian interference swung the election trump where we keep this. Always the dots never ever connected. It's just not connected. Democrats will say things like well. The Russians were involved in the twenty two thousand sixteen election and that shifted the election. I need the evidence that shifted the election. I know they were trying to manipulate. But do you really believe that if you facebook. memes shifted the election in Michigan Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. Is that truly what you believe because Eh someone who is one of the Mike. My personal facebook page is one of those highly traffic facebook pages on facebook. And I can tell you the statistics that were shown by the Senate Intelligence Committee about the reach and power a Russian post on facebook it was minimal really minimal. I mean when people say that the vast Russian campaign cave vast Russia the only case that you can make at the Russians really impacted. The two thousand sixteen election is that the Russians were working with wikileaks and they were sending out those DNC emails. That at least is a fair case. 'cause it shifted the nature of the election but again and if that did not come from the Russians then it would make a difference and also is that Russia manipulation or wikileaks nipple. Even if it's Russia manipulation let's assume that's Russia manipulation that's not trump Russia collusion number one and number two the other element of the Russian manipulation. The Democrats are constantly talking about. Is The facebook post with all of that. So I get the best case that the Russians manipulated. The two. Two Thousand Sixteen election has to do with the release of those DNC emails. Were John Podesta was fished and then all those emails were released. But you'd have to show that in the absence of the release of those DNC DNC emails that the Democrats still don't lose that election because it turns out that the bigger issue was not what was in those DNC emails which again was part of the campaign but certainly not the entirety of the campaign. The biggest issue in the two thousand sixteen election was it. Hilary Clinton had taken thirty three thousand classic emails and put them on her private homebrew server in her bathroom and then they disappeared appeared and then she bleached bit the thing right. That was a bigger issue. That's what trump really honed in on. So yeah it cost him. Chaos that John Podesta was emailing mean things about Bernie Sanders and such but did that shape the entire outcome of the election. Hard to say it's very difficult to say that a single factor in isolation shifted the nature of the election. It certainly wasn't the facebook manipulation that the Russians were engaged in that much. I can certainly say okay with all that's at. The Democrats refused to accept the results of the two thousand sixteen election. They see it as completely illegitimate they believe that Hillary Clinton was the elected president and the Democrats. Extend this line of thought to. The Georgia governor's race for example. Where Stacey Abrams lost by fifty thousand votes? Here you can say that close election. It is percentage wise. It is not in terms of absolute devote stacey. Abrams lost by a fairly large margin in the absolute vote. In Georgia. Democrat still claim that Stacey Abrams was fairly elected governor of Georgia so now moving forward to twenty twenty twenty but democrats are attempting to do with his impeachment. Effort is set up an argument that if Donald Trump is elected in twenty twenty it's because of Ukraine manipulation that if we're not for for trump interfering in Ukraine and trying to militarize American military aid Ukraine north dirt on Joe Biden. That trump wouldn't have won the twenty twenty election. They're setting this thing up in advance. This this is why they say it's urgent to get trump out now this if we don't get trump out now then trump will manipulate twenty twenty just the way he manipulated. Twenty sixteen will. You cannot have a functional republic when people do do not accept the results of elections this Democrat talking point they said this in Twenty fifteen twenty sixteen about trump said trump's never going to accept the results of the twenty sixteen election and he's just going to agitate from the outside and then we're not gonNA be able to have republic because the truth is what holds a republic together Yoni Appelbaum had peace like over the Atlantic making this argument it. What holds republic together? Is Your feeling that the the pain that you forgot the pain that you experienced staying in the republic is less egregious than the pain that you experience leaving the republic in other words. You have to feel as though even if you lost the election number one. It's not a threat to your very way of life and number two. You have to feel like the election. Action was legitimate. Those factors have to be there. Well Democrats are tearing away both of those factors right now. They're saying that trump is not only a threat to your way of life. He's an incipient. Hitler right this. This guy is going to your imagination is the only limit on the boundaries of what president trump will do to violate the American compact and number two. His election is eligible right. They're setting this thing up in advance and the the second I'm GonNa show you Jerry Nadler during Adler saying is open lamine saying openly that Donald Trump is not impeached. That he will cheat and that the election will be will will be skewed and that nobody should accept it ed. We're living in a very dangerous. This is dangerous stuff it is and by the way it was dangerous. If trump not accepted the results of the two thousand sixteen election. If Hillary Clinton one one it would be dangerous if in twenty twenty a democrat were to win and Donald Trump were to sit outside and say this election was not fair and I don't accept the result of the election. That's is dangerous. The one good thing that Al Gore did the short-lived fashion but the one thing that Al Gore did is after. He lost that election he said. Okay George W Bush's president of the United States. Now that was a a good thing that Al Gore did and a worthwhile thing that Al Gore did if we are now coming to the point where Democrats refuse to accept the result of elections they lose we got a problem and if Republicans do the same thing. We don't have a Republican anymore. We just have people clubbing each other over the head. We'll get to more of this in just one second first. Let's talk about a great holiday gift. So if there's a man in in your life then you should be looking at Omaha steaks as a gift and I keep kosher if I did not let me tell you. The number one gift item on my agenda would be Omaha steaks. Why listen listen to this deal? 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We were talking about Twenty years ago he poses a threat to the integrity of the next election if he's allowed to continue To to do what what he's doing OK. That right. There is a preemptive claim by Jerry Nadler that whatever happens in the next election if Republicans wins it's corrupt that's supremely disturbing. It's should be absurd upsetting adding to everybody again. This was Hillary one of Hillary Clinton's big pitches and twenty sixteen. Now she's wandering around the woods of Chappaqua explaining that she's the actual president of the United States. We have not had according to the Democrats legitimately elected Republican president in this country since Nineteen eighty-eight according to Democrats his that was four years old. We've not had legitimately elected Republican president in this country since I was a four year old child according to the Democrats and that is because again Bush was illegitimate and and now trump is illegitimate and then Democrats wonder why Republicans look at them. They say okay. Well we don't trust you with power. Why would we trust you with power? You think every time people dismiss your concerns your your political concerns every time you think people overrule you and think the wrong that is because the American people are not actually overruling you and thinking you're wrong. Recording to Democrats Democrats have never been wrong. The American people have just been have just been screwed in some way by the electoral system. That's why you see Elizabeth Warren running around saying the electoral college is unfair. It's way see the Democrats running around for the past several years. The United States Senate should be reconstituted according to population which of course defeats the purpose of the United State. Senate the Democrats for all the talk about. Trump is a threat to the system. Trump is not actually threatened. The system trump like really. What is the giant threat to the system? mm-hmm that Donald Trump has provided so far. Donald Trump has done less with executive orders than Barack Obama did. He hasn't been droning American citizens overseas lay. The Barack Obama was so far as I'm aware he's continued to drum or but not nearly at the same rate that the that Barack Obama was he certainly didn't militarize the irs the way that Obama's irs was militarized sized in militarize h us the way the Barack Obama militarize. Hhs so where's that. Where's the threat to the to the press? Where's the threat to the press? He hasn't been going after members as of the press and trying to jail limb and phone tap them with a Barack Obama's DOJ was so where exactly is the threat the threat according to the Democrats in trump's personal behavior that trump trump act transaction -ly with regard to the presidency and again. I don't think that there is untrue. Then I think a lot more present I think he's just more obvious about it than other presidents. I think Barack Obama did you think Obama was just elegant and subtle in a way that Donald Trump is not I mean donald trump is a directive buttle to the subtlety and elegance of of Rock Obama in a variety of ways for both good in bad. But with that said if you're talking about threats to the system. Democrats are openly calling for the overthrow of the Electoral College. They want the reconstitution of the United States on it. And they're are saying that. Donald Trump wins in twenty twenty fundamentally illegitimate at the outset. From the beginning it is fundamentally illegitimate and not just Jerry Nadler et Al Green the representative from New York. He's been trying to impeach trump since literally the first day. That trump was in office. Al Green says the trump has to be thrown out of office not because Donald Trump is is it has committed some sort of impeachable crime but because Donald trump is a bad man who represents the history of slavery in America if you believe that Donald Trump is it representative of slavery in the United States and also that if he wins election. It's fundamentally illegitimate how you live in a country with people who believed that every election is stolen ellen from them I look I I don't I don't know how that's GonNa work. And by the way I'm scared of the other side You I am not the fact is that if Donald trump loses if donald trump then goes out and he says this election was stolen from me for whatever reason where he can complain about the media. That's fair the media hate him he can complain about the fact that the Democrats Live Adam routinely. We'll get to that in a second. They do okay but if trump loses in twenty twenty and then he comes back the next day and he says actually. I didn't lose. Actually I won and people believe him. We got a problem. You you have to accept the results of elections but Democrats never have and this is the great hypocrisy of Democrats. They were blaming from for this preemptively. And they've yet to accept the result of an election since again for twenty years. They keep saying they're publicans. Were elected or not actually elected. Meanwhile you have actual manipulated elections like norm coleman versus Al Franken in the state of Minnesota or votes are magically discovered after the final count is in or the Dino Rossi Raisin in Washington state a few years back where Democrats suddenly discovers votes that puts the Democrat over the top like those are actual questionable elections. But I'm sorry. Twenty sixteen as far as the actual vote count was not a questionable election and Donald trump did not coordinate with the Russians. As the Miller report I found and yet we are still told he's illegitimate and now the Democrats are playing up. That trump is illegitimate going into twenty twenty. And no matter what happens. You'll be illegitimate even if he wins. Also so he happens to be a vicious slave slip pro-slavery racist according to Al Green so things are going well in the country. I do believe Ma'am that we have to deal with the original sin. We have to deal with slavery. Slavery was the thing that put all of what President Trump has done lately into motion. But until we deal with the issue of invidious discrimination as it relates to Lgbtq community take the antisemitism the racism the Islamaphobia that transphobia and also the Sajjan e that he has exemplified simplified. I don't think I work done. I'll get what the what the hell does that. have to do with impeachment. Exactly remember the question before. That was an impeachment question. What does it has to do with impeachment and by the way again? Nancy Pelosi is engaged in this sort of language. So here's what we've learned from the Democrats if Donald Trump is is reelected or if he is not impeached the civilization itself is at stake. Nancy Pelosi says has the civilization is at stake. Also if he is elected it's illegitimate. I mean I can't think much more recipe for for chaos and conflict than that. Here's Nancy Pelosi saying American civilization is at stake if Donald Trump is not impeached over Ukraine. A sure and what is America our values values of what we care about is a nation a model decent of hope to the world and he just about do values that so again. We don't Organiz we organized and we do so in a way that again is unifying for our country is absolutely imperative civilization civilization as we know it today is fake and the next election civilization is at stake in the next election of Donald Trump wins. Civilization is over. It's Oh by the way I didn't like this. Language language when Republicans use it about Hillary Clinton in two thousand sixteen. Go back. And listen to my podcasts. You can hear it. You know the idea that America was over Hillary Clinton One yes America would have been worse. I if Hilary Clinton won that if Donald Trump won but civilization over where you're GonNa go home and sell your house and pack up and move to New Zealand. The answer was no because the civilization isn't close to over the greatest civilizations the history of mankind. No no it was not give this. This is dangerous dangerous stuff. La I'll just know the Nancy Pelosi the same person who last week suggesting that it would be ridiculous to say that she hates the president. And that's why she's impeaching back. In one thousand nine hundred she said the only reason. Republicans were impeaching was because they hated President Clinton today the Republican maturity is not judging the present President with fairness but impeaching him with a vengeance in the investigation of the president fundamental principles which Americans Americans hold dear privacy fairness checks and balances have been seriously violated. And why because we are here. Ah We are here today. Because the Republicans in the house are paralysed with hatred of President Clinton and until the Republicans free themselves of this hatred trick. Our country will suffer and the amazing. This is the same person who said you should never use hatred about impeachment in me. I'm a Catholic Okay we'll get to more of this in just one second and we'll get to the added. Incendiary factor here of media malfeasance. When it comes to coverage of politics because the media just lied about her politics six on routine basis? It's astonishing we'll get to that in just one second first. Let's talk about the best gift that you can get for your wife. Mother sister come holiday season. I'm talking about pearls okay. These are just like fantastic so I have gotten pearls for my wife from the Pearl source gave the these pearls are to wonder how my wife can stand me. I know everyone does how. How does Dr Shapiro stay with you? The answers I buy her jewelry and the jewelry that I buy her is jewelry from the parole source. There is nothing more classic timeless than Fine Pearl Jewelry. which doesn't need a break your budget at the at the Pearl source you get the highest quality Pearl Jewelry and up to seventy percent off retail pricing? 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Ben Enter her Promo Code Ben at checkout again that no hassle sixty day money back guarantee risk free two day shipping and you get twenty percents off your entire order pro source dot com slash. Ben Enter Promo Code. It's great stuff. Okay so it is so we have a few factors. That are militating. In favor of heightened conflict right now in the United States come twenty. twenty-nine feels like fever pitch. It does and I I will say I think that part of the reason that Democrats are pushing the feeling of fever pitch is as sort of a tacit threat if you re elect trump there'll be people in the streets it's this chaos will continue and it's not just trumpian chaos. It's not just that trump's crazy man you don't know what he's GonNa do. It's we are not going to allow the country to go back to a certain level of spaces. The fact is the economy right. Now is historically booming. Like it's as good as it has ever been in the history of the United States. We are at the lowest unemployment rates in American history for the the last one hundred years. Okay since since nineteen sixty nine. We've not had unemployment rates this low. We have a booming stock market. Right up around. Twenty eight thousand like these are enormous enormous the numbers. We should be pretty happy things. Things have gone fairly well. We are not engaged in any massive foreign conflict. Yes we have long lasting wars in places like Afghanistan places like Syria but those are low level conflict in. There's no draft like we're not in the middle of a massive foreign campaign like things are actually pretty good and most Americans walking around the country day. Don't feel he'll terrible about the country or feel bad about themselves but the media the Democrats they're trying to suggest that we that civilization itself is at stake. You've had three years. Donald trump civilization shen been been completely destroyed by Donald Trump. I don't like a lot of the things the guy says you don't like a lot of the things the guy says but the economy's good we're doing account foreign policy the the attempt to heighten the chaos is one of the things the Democrats and the media wanted to. Because if you heightened the cast then it provides the contrast of a quote unquote back to normalcy campaign for if the Democrats. This is why Joe Biden is doing well in the general polling. It's also why he's doing well in the primary polling because most Americans are tired they are tired of this gets why I've said that I think President President trump needs to tone it down. He he doesn't have to play into it. But this is also a purposeful plan by some people in the media and many in the media would like to see this conflict heightened lightened make the stakes higher because the higher you make the stakes the morning. Get Your voting base out to vote and convinced moderates that all this will just go away right ever go back to normal radio calm down if Joe Biden becomes president of the United States. Okay so let's get to the media so we've had over the past few weeks we've had an past few years. There's get Democrats claim. Fundamental Americans key American institutions need to go because they're not democratic. We have heard that Republicans are vicious racists who WANNA put y'all back in chains in the word of Joe Biden talking about Mitt Romney the most milk toast human being. Who's ever walked the earth? We've heard from Democrats that they WANNA get rid of the electoral college they want to rewrite the. US SENATE THEY WANNA stack the the Supreme Court because Republicans are a threat everything you hold dear in every time. Republicans win a presidential election. It's illegitimate and by the way if Donald Trump wins in twenty twenty. It's because he wasn't impeached. And because he is and because he's militarizing American foreign policy in order to benefit himself in the twenty twenty election add on top of that the media claiming that Republicans are invariably and and always crazy people and the media covering these things. in-incredibly false ways. So let me give you a couple of quick examples. First example is about president trump so president trump over the weekend speaks at this pro Israel Council the the Israeli American Council and he says a couple of things and Democrats particularly reports pours from places like vox or activists in places like media matters. They immediately clip these things out of context. In order to suggest the president trump is vicious anti Semite while he's being cheered loudly oudlay by the American Israel by the Israeli American Council because trump for example he was talking over the weekend about business and he leads off as part of his speech. Talking about how people in the room are hard nosed business people. This clip is about how people in our hard nosed business. People and here is what he says. A lot of your in the real estate business because I know you very well you're brutal killers not nice people at all but you have to vote for him. You have no choice. You're not gonNA vote for Boca Hanta. You're not gonNA vote for the wealth tax. Yeah let's take one hundred percent of your wealth away down now even if you don't like some of you don't some of you. I don't like it all actually. And you're going to be my biggest supporters streakers. You'll be out of business in fifteen minutes if they get a okay. So people in the media played this as though he was being anti Semitic in this clip. I'm not kidding you. There are people in the media who suggested that this was an anti Semitic line because he was saying to Jews that that some of them are not nice people. He's explicitly talking about people he did. Real estate with the entire clip is about high deals with you guys. You guys hate me I hate you. You're GonNa vote for me anyway because at least I'm not a craze socialist. The media played this as Donald. Trump was being an anti somebody that clip here. That is why that's incredibly dishonest. Incredibly dishonest okay. And then trump talks about Israel and he is at the Israeli American Council. Oh okay so these are people care deeply about Israel and he makes a point okay as usual not always the best way but what he says here is not actually wrong. And here's president and again. They tried to proclaim this medic. Here's president trump saying that. He is very pro. Israel and Jews should be more pro Israel now as I've said before if what he means by that is that people with the last name. Berg Oregon steen ought to be more pro Israel than that silly because there are a lot of people who are born Jewish. You don't give a damn about Israel but if he means people who actually care about Judaism people who consider themselves Jews for purposes of public discussion then he is correct there. Many Jews who do not care enough about Israel many Jews who do not care enough about Israel who care more about abortion until ninth month and same sex marriage than they do about Israel. which if you have any semblance of understanding of Judaism is kind of ridiculous? Trump is not wrong and what he says here the media portrayed this the Anti Semitic we have to get the people of our country of this country to love Israel more. I have to tell you that we have to do it. We have to get them to love Israel more because you have people that are Jewish people that are great people. They don't love Israel enough. You know that okay okay. Nothing he says there is wrong. The media played this. This is anti Semitic. He's literally saying that people should be more pro the Jewish state and also there are lots of Jews. Don't care enough about the Jewish state's a hundred under percent true okay but we're gonNA pretend that is him being virulent anti-semitic from the same party that voted in the last week that Jews settling in historic Jewish areas is a violation of international law and four members of the house. Democratic Party decided they would not vote even for that condemnation of trump because it would suggest the justice state solution Rashida delete was a blatant anti Semite from Michigan. She's suggested there. When it comes to Israel there should not be a Jewish state? She said there should not be a two state solution. Okay understand a two state solution according to repeat it to Leib would-be Palestinian state and Israel's in his Jewish state. She doesn't want that she wants to go away so that would be apartheid state so she wants the destruction of the Jewish state you know commentary from the none nobody even asked a question about it. But trump is very divisive on Israel the Democrat the media their attempts to play a up the the radicalism of the Republicans is quite insane and completely complete an downplay by the way the radicalism of the Democratic Party is completely completely dishonest. Incredibly dishonest. I'll give you another example of that in just once I can i. Let's talk about how you make your home look better. So how can you accomplish this well way number one is that you can ensure that your window coverings good. I know you haven't thought about your window coverings did you. Did you use your paint job your floor. You don't look at the window coverings because frankly who does will now. You're looking at them. They're ugly really looking to don't don't turn away. They're UGLY UNIQUE BLINDS DOT COM. 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Discussion feature though as you to engage gauge our hosts writers and special guests on a weekly basis so stop depriving yourself. Come join the fun. I mean like literally tens and tens and tens of thousands of people who who are members. You should help us out two by becoming remember we really appreciate any at this right. The leftist tears hot or cold angler which everybody wants everybody makes a great Christmas present. Makes Julienne fries. Go check it out right now. You are a way back in just a second largest fastest growing podcast and radio show in the nation So okay so the the media are not content with lying about trump. They're also lying about Nikki. Haley Nikki. Haley didn't interview with the former ambassador to the UN former South Carolina governor remember when she was governor of South Carolina. While she was governor there was a mass shooting at a Charleston church by a a brutal terrorist racist white supremacist racist and then there was a picture of that guy holding confederate flag and Nikki. Haley the governor of the State had the confederate flag battle flag removed from state grounds and put in a museum when she made a speech about it at the time. Talking about the the conflicted history of the confederate flag how many people saw it as a symbol of bravery and and home and hearth and how many people saw it as a symbol title of racism. Which of course it originally was right and how that morphed over time for many people didn't have original relation to slavery but you saw how divisive and she saw how how it hurt people and all of his it's shoes on Glenn Beck and she was asked about the confederate flag controversy? And here's what she said and the ability of the media to take perfectly innocuous statements out of context and use it to call people like Nikki. Haley racist remember. She's the person who took it off. State grounds in South Carolina in two thousand fifteen and made a speech about the history of the confederate flag. Commit a statement about it about how she totally understood why. When Black Americans looked at that flag they saw effectively speaking of swastika right she? She got that but she also understood so that the vast majority of people who had confederate flag bumper sticker on back of their car were not Nazis. And we're not what you premises. All of which is true. All of those things can be true at the same time they suggested did over the weekend. The Nikki Haley was actually a racist. WHO's making excuses for the original confederate flag and pretending that it didn't have any link to historic racism? They did it based on taken out of context on on Glenn. Beck's show here. Is this guy that comes out with his manifesto holding the confederate flag and in had just hijacked everything that people thought of. We don't have hateful people in South Carolina. There's always a small minority. That's always going to be there. But people saw it as service and sacrifice and heritage and but once he did that through there was no way to overcome it and in the national media came in in droves. They wanted to define what happened. They wanted to make this about racism they wanted to make about gun control. They wanted to make it about death. Penalty Okay so she says that and they say oh well that means that. She thinks that the confederate flag doesn't have any history of relation to racism. That's what she thinks. Okay she no no no in two thousand fifteen she specifically made statements about exactly what these What exactly the confederate flag was? She gave a statement June twenty fifteen eighteen right a televised statement and she talked about the people of South Carolina and she talked about the. She talked about the confederate flag and she said in in that speech on matters of race. South Carolina has a history will know that many of us had seen it neural MODs in the labs our parents and grandparents. We don't need reminders. In spite of last week's tragedy we've come a long way since those days and have much to be proud of but there's more we can do that brings me to the subject of the confederate flag flies on the State House grounds for many people in our state to flag stands for traditions that are noble traditions of history of heritage and ancestry. The hateful murderer who massacred are brothers and sisters in Charleston as sick and twisted view of the flag in no way does he reflect the people in our state who respect in many ways revere it though South Carolinians view the flags symbol of respect integrity and duty. They also see it as memorial highway to honor ancestors that is not hating orders nor is it racism at the same time is which sit in two thousand fifteen when she removed the flag from state sake grounds at the same time for many other than South Carolina. The flag is deeply offensive. Symbol of a brutally oppressive passed as a state we survive as we have done while still being home to both of those viewpoints you points. We do not need to declare a winner loser here. We respect freedom of expression and that for those who wish to show the respect for the flag on their private property known. Stand in your way but the state houses different and events of for the past week call upon us to look at this in a different way fifteen years ago after much contentious debate South Carolina came together in a bipartisan way to move the flag from atop the Capitol Dome Today we. We're here in a moment of unity in our state without a will say it's time to move the flag from capitol grounds and now they're trying to paint Nikki Haley as brutal racist now. They're trying to paint Nikki Haley. who moved the flag as brutal racist? He this is part of a broader agenda to suggest that the Republican Party utterly and completely is radical is trying tear apart the country and is dangerous to the country and also if they win elections. The elections are illegitimate steal elections. This is why you hear Democrats talk about voter suppression there is no evidence of widespread voter suppression Russian in the United States. None okay the evidence that Republicans are attempting to quote unquote suppress the vote and keep people from being able to vote based on voter. Id was absurd the idea that you want to make sure that somebody's voting. WHO says they're voting by having them showing ID that is not voter suppression poll taxes are voter suppression poll tests those are voter suppression constitutionally speaking it is not voter suppression to suggest that polling places have to be open for widespread hours not at specific hours of the day it is not voter suppression when in Georgia the case where Democrats keep saying the voter suppression Black Turnout has outpaced black share of the population in Georgia Asia for years including the Stacey Abrams race he doesn't have voter suppression but Democrats keep claiming this stuff so they can claim that every election is illegitimate and then get people like Charles blow again awful columnist for the New York Times with a piece called Nikki? You're so wrong. There's much Nikki. Haley could learn from a true here. One of the South Carolina confederate flag removal breen. Zimbabwe is a long column about how Nikki Haley Abou Nikki. Haley doesn't understand the history of the confederate flag. She's she gave an astonishing statement for very very brazenness of its history and bowing to a racist narrative any image of morality and Unity Haley had cultivated vanished. When those words left her lips? She did not say. My view of the confederate flags of the confederate flag only represents heroism indecency. That's not what she said. She said the vast majority of South Carolinians who fly the flag. It doesn't represent being in a fan of Jim Crow or racism which is true. You House how do we know that's true because of five minutes ago. Democrats were saying the same thing. He did job Biden. Praised a group that displayed the confederate flag. As fine people like three years ago. Four years ago Howard Dean famously invoked votes the confederate flag in his two thousand four. Here's Joe Biden is just a few years ago. Talking about the fine people who displayed the confederates led a very moving being an eloquent speeches. His sons of the confederacy acknowledging that it was time to change in yield to a position. Position that Senator Carol Moseley Braun raised on the floor of the Senate not granting a federal charter to a organization made up of many fine people who continue to who display confederate flag. Okay so many find people who displayed the confederate flag Howard. Dean did the same thing back in two thousand four and he Sunday morning to be the he wanted the candidate for Democrats who flew confederate flag on their bumper sticker. Rather this was acceptable until five seconds ago. Nikki Haley says it. It's no longer acceptable. Because everyone apparently who has confederate flag on their bumper stickers racist which is a hell of Wade won elections in the south of your Democrat really to call everyone who flies who has a confederate flag. A vicious racist like the dukes of Hazzard are now vicious racists. Okay good luck with us here. Is Howard Dean back when the Democrats were slightly less insane. I don't want to win without the south. I'm going to go to the south and I'm going to say to white guys who drive pickup trucks with confederate flag details in the back decals thousands of back of their car. We want your vote too because your kids don't have health insurance either. Okay when Democrats had it it was fine when Republicans say it. Apparently it is truly truly awful. Meanwhile if you're a Democrat you can say pretty much anything in the media will let you get away with it so ao see the illustrious afc the brilliant AOC AOC. She tweeted out. That Amazon is coming to New York. Amazon is coming to New York. They agreed to open in Hudson yards. They didn't get any financial incentives from New York City or state. She tweeted out a picture picture of herself. Like sitting in the lounge for upscale Washington. DC apartment building. She tweeted. Won't you look at that. Amazon is coming to New York City anyway without acquiring the public to finance shady deals help had handouts for Jeff Bezos and corporate giveaways. Maybe the trump administration should focus more on cutting public assistance to billionaires instead of poor families. Again she doesn't. I don't even understand. Trump's food stamp policy the food stamp policy that has worked permits does not apply to families with children. It only applies to single people for not working because she was like again. She's mischaracterizing this stuff. Again she's mischaracterizing the stuff but also it's worth noting that the twenty five thousand Amazon jobs that were supposed to come to New York. They're supposed to come to her district now. Fifteen hundred jobs are coming to New York outside her district. She's an idiot it okay. And she's always been an idiot. Not The hell. She's talking about but the media are going to continue to treat her as though she is. She's retirement okay. So what is this designed to do. All this is designed to create a feeling of chaos us and the feeling of cast can only be alleviated. Only be alleviated if you give Democrats what they want. It can only be alleviated if you give Democrats what they want now. The most extreme version of the sort politics is practiced young decades ago by Marion Berry in Washington. DC is not a racial thing. Marion Berry absolutely said that he would create unrest in the streets. It's unless his constituents were given what they wanted. And there's there's a very good book on on this name escapes me. But I've mentioned it in the past on the show in talking about how America's major cities were riven by chaos specifically designed to create government policy from the inside their sort of the inside outside on college campuses. There's lot where there will be chaos. When speaker comes to campus in the administration instead of cracking down on the people who are committing the chaos the administration just caves to the chaos and says okay I guess will alleviate your woes? We'll give you what you want. He Democrats in the media are now doing the same thing. It's chaos out there it's craziness now. A lot of that is being pushed by the Democrats and the media. that it's chaos Asan craziness out there because again walk outside today. Are you seeing Zombie Apocalypse. I'm not when when you're not watching the news when twitter you really feel as though the country's trees in a state of vast chaos complete breakdown when you turn off and by the way Sanchez. Leftwingers when you turn on Fox turn off my show when he drove any of the. When you don't follow politics for five seconds does it feel like hazards and feel like Kinda okay? It feels like things are kind of okay. But for a lot of the members of the Democratic Media The goal is to create this feeling of chaos. So so that you're GONNA go okay. Fine you put old Joan there honestly like Ju just old Joe. 'cause all Joe I mean like guys not even alive. Put Him in there. Speaking of Joe Biden Rachel baycorp's Joe Biden walking the earth. His proof that there is eternal life and it's not just government programs. It's also if you're a senator from Delaware who never stops running for president so Joe Biden. Joe Biden. Didn't over the weekend. He made the little admission that he should put restrictions on hunter. This is kind of Larry. He's been saying the whole time. That hundred never did he never did anything wrong. With regard to hundred but now he's like I suppose we should put some restrictions on hunter like not allowing him to trot around the globe. Picking a bags of cash because his last name is the same as mine. Here's Joe Biden. Now reversing course say you're elected you're in office. What guardrails would you have to be? Sure that your son your brother. Jimmy doesn't Do Anything to trade and on the family name they will not be engaged in any foreign business. Because of what's happened in this administration is going to be seeking patents for things from I'm China. No one's going to be engaged in that kind of thing so no foreign business for correct relatives in office because it happened in this administration. Not because the questions about him and his son on nuts nuts just because of trump it's because trump is all because it trump by the way that was not the only gaffe that Joe Biden made about a son of the weekend who's interviewed by NPR. And he said nobody even nobody even raised the issue to me. Okay we know in open testimony. George Kent said that he went to Vice President Biden steam and said we didn't have time for this so turns out that wasn't true. Here's Joe Biden. Insane untrue thing but there were former White House aides of yours who tried to warn you about the potential conflicts of interests. He warned me about potential conflicts of interest. Nobody warned me about and at the same time. Can't the State Department official testified. He raised it to you. Know you're starting. I never ever heard heard that wants to your stuff. And their staff told him he has no front with just. That's why he said because my son was on his deathbed for that that's not the reason why they should have told now. He's saying they should've told them. But the reason they said they didn't tell them because they were gonNA blow up at them and say if they did tell him so so joe. Biden is certainly not any representative of institutional stability or personal stability as it turns out by the way he's a radical to his revised himself himself on his own positions that used to be moderate came out over the weekend and again suggestive gift to dump the Hyde Amendment which means federal funding for abortion. I came out a while ago. We have to get rid of the Hyde amendment. Because it's no longer doable and usable. And no longer a serious option for anybody all the all these states going out and not only holy challenging. Whether or not. There's they're saying that is a criminal offence. You're going to hear. Let me let me the best. Swear to say if I like. The president of the State's Supreme Court over roles are overweight. I'M GONNA send legislation to the United States Congress to pass genet codifying. The media's play here is put that doddering old nut in the White House because you put that doddering old Mutt in the White House. Then everyone will feel more stable. Do you feel more stable. Look the guy to things feel more stable. The only way they feel more stable was trump keeps saying crazy things. It's why trump should stop saying crazy things but does that seem like a beacon of stability to maybe Elizabeth. Warren seems he's like a beacon of stability to you again. The play of the media here is make things feel like house is on fire and that the arsonists will come in and put out the fire if if and only if you pay the ransom right said but does Elizabeth Warren feel like a beacon of stable stability by the way it was really funny over the weekend was born finally admitted she shouldn't have called herself native of American publicly. So this only took forever. I do appreciate her blue sweater today. She has this rotating. We've been noticing this. She has a rotating series of sweaters every single at this very weird kind of nineteen seventies teaching outfit that you are shoes to wear the Harvard law school to be fair so she used. This is nothing new here. Is Elizabeth Warren in blue sweater. which she's changing it up today talking? How I shouldn't have called yourself native American which is weird so for decades to the cheers of the ACA hit the chairs the academic left? I shouldn't have done. I am not a person. Listen of color. I am not a citizen of try and I apologize for confusion. I've caused on tribal citizenship ship. Trying to solve for any harm caused weird. How every Republican complained about Joe Biden and Hunter Biden has now been half legitimated? Aided by Joe Biden saying he's GonNa Redo the restrictions when he becomes president and every complaints about Elizabeth Warren being focus those have been legitimised by now her backing backing off but for a years. We were told that you're not allowed to ask about hunter-bomber still being told that and we were told that it's racist to to note that Elizabeth Warren is actually not native American because stability guys. That's what we need stability and I trust our media to establish that baseline level of stability by the way these are the same Democrats who are claiming again. Donald Trump is responsible for every evil thing Hillary the Clinton suggesting that trump is inciting mass shootings at synagogues and churches and Walmart. Here is Hillary Clinton. WHO's definitely definitely not campaigning? For President saying that chaos has broken out because because in front by the way they were shooting synagogues before trump was president. There were shooting at the Charleston. Church shooting was in two thousand. Fifteen Barack Obama was president at the time. And but. Here's Hillary Clinton suggesting that it's only all cases due to trump clearly he he just incites these these deep irrational channel and unfortunately sometimes violent emotions some of the people who have gone into synagogues and churches and walmarts and other places and shot them up and murdered people have clearly been unleashed. I don't want to say it's a direct cause I don't think that's fair but amped up. People are amped up people. Yes people want people as opposed to if you just elect in old. stodgy Joe Biden. Everything will be better. Okay time for some things I like and then some things that I hate so things that I like. The Democratic Party has claimed for years that the Great Society help the country in innumerable ways. Now the great society really it was the Civil Rights Act. The voting rights act like those were a good pieces of legislation with the exception that I've always said that the Civil Rights Act should not have been applied to private businesses that the direct impacted the civil rights. Extra come down on state. Governments are imposing Jim Crow. From above. Now if you have to vote for the entire thing not the entire thing you vote for the entire thing because more important to stop Jim Crow. Oh then even to protect private property rights at the time but with that said the rest of the great society programs were not only were they had they were deeply damaging does that achieve precisely. This is the opposite of what they intended to achieve in quashing poverty. The rates of poverty basically continued to decline at the same rate they were declining and before the great society programs except now we were spending twenty trillion trillion dollars on it. Amity schlaize is great new book about this. She's a terrific author. She's the author of the book. The forgotten man. Oh about the failures of the new deal. She has a great book about. It's called Great Society. A new history. Sorry she really Yup points out sort of leadership in this movement. Walter Reuter comes in for some serious criticism. The former head of the united auto workers the book is is really while written is worthy of the Great Society New History go check it out by amateur schlaize for everybody. WHO's justice? Democrats yield America with the Great Society Programs. Nah No they really did not lead lead you decades of economic stagnation through through the great society programs and we are still bearing legacy of those in the massive national debt that we carry made time for a quick thing that I I hate so There is a performance artist and he Taped a banana to a wall. It sold for one hundred and twenty thousand dollars and Miami's Art Basil Festival this week. If you want to say that we are in the final stages of civilization this would probably be a good indicator it's a Contemporary Korea art piece titled The comedian and again it sold for a staggering one hundred and twenty thousand dollars. It is now in a different artist. Stomach according to reports the comedian was an installation meant ostensibly extensively to make fun of the art. World's obsession with Banal and uninspired works according to its Creator Mauricio Catalan. The most viewers saw it as simply rotting banana duct taped to a wall daily anywhere. Amanda Prestigiacomo reported earlier this week that the piece presented in our Basil. The American version of the avant-garde Swiss art showcase is one of three similar pieces showcased around the world and the artist. Catalan prides rides himself on mocking. The rest of contemporary art with his work. On the banana is a follow up to his two thousand seventeen installation a golden toilet that sold for six million dollars but it's currently missing after a shocking art heist took place in the UK earlier this year. Apparently the golden toilet is now. Install the Pentagon on Saturday. Another contemporary artist decided to make his own. Show the duck tape banana and he appealed the fruit off the wall and consumed it in front of a crowd of horrified onlookers. Here's what this looks like. He just goes right for it. It feels it off the wall and hung a calls it hungry artist. It took some work for this guy to find. The banana was removed from public display after our basil concluded earlier this week and relocated to a gallery. The tuna was also given incredible leeway for the sunny actually conversed with several patrons who are treating his efforts with utter seriousness. Because this was in fact a work of art. Catalan worked on his art for a year. According to the press release from the gallery. ALARY catalans banana was being exhibited for sale. The Gallery Clinton has sentimental value to the artist. Apparently the good news is that it's easy to replace the banana shocking. You can get headed for under a dollar anywhere in the United States so it don't worry it's hard though it's definitely definitely art. It's not the decline of art is not that incline of Western civilization. It's not the fact that we have too much much money. Apparently being held by like you WanNa turn turn me into a Bernie Sanders Socialist. Someone one hundred twenty thousand dollars for banana tape to duct tape the wall that that'd be the answer. Radars radars solid stuff there. Yeah the death of art definitely has taken place in real time. Which is why you go to modern art museum? You're like Oh my kid could paint that right you're could paint at. This is correct because art has been completely separated from skulls. The message of the art that matters the message in once the art becomes about the message not about the actual art. The art is supposed to be universal. Sense that it's supposed to have meaning for everyone who takes a look at us. You know what this means this duct tape banana to a wall. It means that everyone is a moron. So I guess the chiefs that affect achieve that purpose the art critic by the way over at the New York Times defended this thing and said no no no. It is indeed art a grudging defense of the one hundred and twenty thousand dollar Banana Jason. Farrell says art may be long in life short but the existence of a hand. Fruit is most ephemeral ephemeral of all this week at Art Basel Miami Beach The Art World Premiere Champagne steeped swap meet no works for more grins guffaws in southeast than a new sculpture. Call it a sculpture. By the semi retired tired Italian. trickster Maurizio Catalina Banana duct taped to a wall. It's peel already speckled with Brown spots. It's titled Comedian by Wednesday. It hardy one art art world. Notoriety righty on Saturday. The chief the public visibility that any artist would envy after self promoting wag toward the banana off the wall and levels it up. Suffice it to say that works of contemporary we are rarely make the cover of the New York Post but this is Mr Catalans second recent appearance on the tabloids front page when it comes to the bananas ons logical status art or produce. I thought we get settled this already. If you buy a light work by Dan Flavin and the fluorescent bulbs starts flickering. You can play with anyone if you buy assault Walls wrong and move house. You can race the old one and draw new one a banana. Manna even more than a light. Fixture was always going to require replacement. Catalan had already drawn up instructions from lucky collectors to replace the fruit every day to ten days as to why Catalans bananas gripped the public imagination has something to do with the price something to do also with the comic potential of bananas is it art. Did you have to be there. Let me reassure you are not a hopeless Philippines. You find this all a bit foolish foolishness. And deflating sense that a culture that once encouraged the blonde beauty now only permits. DOPEY JOKES IS MR CADILLAC. The stock in trade. But perhaps we'll find more to appreciate catalans work if you take notes of two point. One former one social says the New York Times art critic. I I've been dismayed to discover eh for work that has been endlessly photograph. Imperative over the course of its one week life. Almost no one has discussed that. It is not just a banana it is and a piece of duct tape and this is a a significant difference. Comedian is not a one note. Datta estim- posture in which commodities proclaimed a work of art which would be an entire century out of date now as David is a film director mimicking. Making W Griffith comedian is a sculpture when the continues Mr Catalans. decades-long reliance on suspension. Make the obvious seem ridiculous and to deflate and defeat the pretensions engines early. Okay fire this guy. Fire this guy seriously. Fire the critic fire the artist fire everyone the culture that produced the Sistine Chapel has now produced a man duct taping of Banana Nanto Wall the culture that produced Bach. Beethoven Brahms has now produced a piece of fruit that is rotting on a wall tape there with duct tape and we are supposed to believe the Z.. They deep deep and profound commentary on American culture. The only commentary on American cultures that anybody took this thing seriously in the first place. It's ridiculous on. Its face and the fact that nobody aspires anymore. Instead we just find joy in mockery. The nobody aspires anymore. Maybe that's the only thing it has to say about our culture. Maybe those catalans point. It Ain't worth one hundred twenty grand. I just gave it to you for free so enjoy I already. We'll be back in two hours of content. We have a lot to get to a little bit later days. Definitely tune in or show up tomorrow. I'm Ben Shapiro. This is the Ben Shapiro. Show If you enjoyed this episode don't forget to subscribe and if you want to help spread the word. Please give us a five star review and tell your friends assists inscribed to were available on Apple podcasts. spotify and wherever you listen to podcasts. Also be sure to check out the other daily wire podcasts. Including the Andrew Klavan show the Michael Knowles show and the Matt Wall Show. Thanks for listening. The Ben Shapiro show is produced by Rebecca DOPP Koets directed by Mike joyner executive producer. Jeremy Boring senior producer. Jonathan Kevin Hey supervising producers maths glover Robert Stirling technical producer Austin Stevens associate producer Colton Haas Assistant Rector Pavel Wisneski edited by Adam Sigh of its audio audio is mixed by micrometer hair and makeup by just over era production assistant Nik Sheehan. The Ben Shapiro. Show is a daily wire. Production Copyright Daily Wire One thousand nine hundred politics says downstream of culture but politics affects culture to as a banana duct taped to a wall sells for one hundred twenty thousand dollars at Art Basel as Drag Queen Story Korea. Our hits preschools and kids get hooked on hardcore porn before the age of 'em Libertarians. Beware we examined whether politics can help us. Affixed are screwed up culture. Check it out on the Michael Knowles show.

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Champagne Sharks Book Club: The Image Pt. 5

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2:49:07 hr | 5 months ago

Champagne Sharks Book Club: The Image Pt. 5

"All right champagne sharks. How's everyone doing Book club the book is the image. This is part five but we chapter in episode but this time chapter four was wisconsin long. So what we did. Was we split chapter foreign into two installments. So this is chapter five. This is chapter four part to Even though this episode five so for people who've been listening along and have gotten used to us during the whole chapter each installment. This is not the case this time. This is episode five but the second installment of chapter four and actually. I should do this before. I even start recording the whole test. But it's too late now. All remember to do it that way next time but tell me how this volume sounds i have it on. Maximum volume. Somehow it sounds to you section six. The movies were of course the first of the new were you guys able to hear that and was it too. Low sounds good. A little little low may be turned up a little bit yet. Okay well that was the maximum volume. But let me see if i could amplified and other way haven't on the maximum there to Interesting how does it sound so quiet because we sanded fine yes. I'm not sure. I'm not sure why i'm not sure why it sounds so low. It sounds to me too. I don't know well how about this. This is a simple solution. I guess Everything is levelled and post anyway. So i would say You guys if you want says no one's going to be talking just raise a volume on your own computers just while this is playing. See if that see if that helps it out in your plan to sample one more time. Sure happen alternative visual forms for narrative literature which to come with the graphic revolution. Okay motion no my extra my volume very percent. When i'll put it like forty eight sounds perfect bad. Yeah it's sounds fine. Okay yeah so so. We'll just do like that. We can fix the volume levels and in post you know. So that's what we'll do okay. So without further ado here is the second half of chapter four section six. The movies were of course the first of the new alternative visual forms for narrative. Loser which were to come with the graphic revolution motion pictures became commercially important. Only around nineteen ten by one thousand nine hundred seventeen. Publishers weekly was writing about cinema novels. In the nineteen twenties studios were paying hundreds of thousands of dollars fulfil rights to novels in nineteen thirty one. Chinese economic survey of the book industry reported that the incredible prices screen rights had bought on some severe cases of a new occupation disease known as novelist misdiagnosis caused by keeping one i on the typewriter and the other on hollywood. The result has been a feverish production of certain books of a certain type in the fall years. The changing economics of the movie industry made the disease more prevalent than ever after world war. Two the cost of moviemaking became so high that most producers instead of owning studios began to lease facilities then became easier to produce a movie on credit between nine hundred forty. Five thousand sixty two came into being over one hundred new firms of independent producers buying novels for the films by nineteen forty six. Mgm established a contest for novelists which paid the winner. One hundred and twenty five thousand dollars century fox gave grace mattel two hundred and sixty five thousand dollars to write a sequel to her peyton place in nineteen fifty six. The box office success made from her novel. That sold eight million copies. The sequel was to be called return to peyton place when the high price paid for movie rights itself had a publicity value. It must be good if they paid so much. Even the business transaction became an elaborately contrived event like the concluding of contracts by movie stars and sports celebrities with photographs of the signing of the contract interviews of author producer etc here was a new kind of advanced testimonial whose authenticity actually depended on the fact. That big money was paid by the movie producer. The person giving the testimonial impervious weekly the magazine of the book. Trade column into films became a regular feature in one thousand nine forty four by november fifteenth nineteen fifty two the author of the column paul s nathan from title. Too confining film rights. He explained after all only one kindnesses city rights. There's really no reason why. Publishers editors booksellers and other interested parties should be more concerned books being sold to the movies than with books. Acquired by the ladies home journal or by only book for digest or by the broadway theatre for adaptation. He added that. The advances paid by hollywood. Were beginning to be overshadowed by those of paperback reprint houses in that television. Only within the last six years had become a bigger market for subsidiarite than the movies having discarded the more general title books into money nathan renamed his column rights and permissions and is remained one of the most widely read features in the magazine. It became an axiom of the book. Trade that booksellers more apt to be interested in a book and more inclined to stock it and to push it sale. If the movie rights had already been sold for a substantial sum this was a sheri- that the book itself would profitable hair a couple of sample items from publishers weekly for single issue december twelfth nineteen sixty a broadway prayed that pre production deal of like never seen before one which goes the limit has just been entered into by columbia pictures in connection with the new stage. Version of bernstein's new putnam novel. The king from the studio will furnish the entire financing for the play which will open under the banner of robert fryer. And laurence car with morton. Directing columbia is also making a substantial down payment on the screen rights plus escalated payments relating to the length theatrical. Run up to ceiling five hundred thousand dollars from hair. It looks as though the costs in particular stand cleanup under the terms of the agreement in addition to directing the play of the same job when the cameras. Start turning. Furthermore as collaborated on the germanisation snyder. He'll cut in on the profits from the adaptation is an and as an actual stuff for his own independent outfit. Bograd productions will co produce the motion picture with columbia. These are the highlights of the agreement which has other details setting apart from the usual less fogel. The big gun. At william morris agency presided over negotiations with clare s of curtis brown ltd. Cooperating as snyder's representative is known that other movie companies visualizing the king from ashton boola as lucrative successes to the same authors teahouse of the august moon desirous of tying up the rights but bubble at the conditions in order to sir interest in the sale of move rights to a book. The book need not yet been written nor even need supposed writer of the existent book himself. Be an author in this week of the out of the ordinary disclosure. That guy's associates plans to publish the autobiography of entertainment. Sammy davis junior has stirred lively interest which manifested itself in an extreme form. On hearing the news one of the major studios straight dispatch messenger to the office of scott meredith agent for the book the sizable off screen rights. The has not at the moment been accepted for one thing. This is own services as performance are expected to be part of the package and his thoughts be too early to make a commitment along such lines especially since work on the book itself won't be starting to january least davis will have the assistance of a friend. Bert boyer syndicated columnists for the new house. Papers in setting his life down on paper. In instance america agency did sell the picture rights to book the then unwritten. That one. Evan hunter is mothers and daughters to be published by simon and schuster late. Spring has now been completed and german rights have gone to kindergarten. It deal close with their representative there. Maximilian becker for a record. Seventeen thousand dollar advance. Also corgi has just acquired. British pinch back rights on a fifteen thousand pound advance. Its world of the shadows. The shadows very concept of leary. Authorship dissolves disappears william wireless presentation of ben hur opened on broadway nine hundred thousand nine with high price reserved seats are printed programming familiar. Paraphernalia of the movie spectacular. The detail princeton program listed everybody from sam zimbalist the producer jim bridger. Who has color consultant for the costumes and gabriella boselli the hairstylist but it no elicited lew wallace the author since both lew wallace in his career had long since expired. There was nobody to protest when the author is still alive however he sometimes objects his work has been adapted out of his out of existence led to a number of lawsuits which other have seldom one one of the most memorable and most ironic occurred in nineteen thirty one when theodore theresa saw according junctions preventing neil here from presenting the grant movie of his american tragedy. The movie based on the novel on a stage play adapted from the novel. According to greece ahead reduced his work from a subtle exploration of how whole society can be responsible for one young man's crime to a tabloid murder story juice lost his case in the movie. World the distilling of novels into films as van nostrand observes has become a series of standard processes. In hollywood jargon these include the making of treatment and not based on a synopsis development of continuity translating the treatment into movie scenes and the concocting of shooting script. This is finally elaborated by a cross. Cutting showing alternate shots of different scenes. And by the gimmick or switcheroo. Sunday cutting another scene and revealing new facts to heighten suspense by the yak. Funny surprise and the bleader pathetic surprise comparable set of transformation takes place where it never a novel. Stage play or a movie is adapted into a television show such multiplication of the media into which a dramatic not can be cast inevitably inevitably divorces the content from literary form compared with the twentieth century movie adaptations of novels john. Dryden's or thomas ballots family versions of shakespeare look like literal transcription. The very notion of literary art. The word one with the thing disappears from the popular mind each embodiment then completes with all others for the kudos of being the original out of this competition. By the law city events the winner in the viewers consciousness is the embodiment most remote from the naive spontaneous. Products of an author section. Seven out of the graphic revolution came still another phenomenon. Dissolved the judicial forms of dramatic literature. This was the star system. It would have unthinkable without the invention of photography. Motion pictures without the many new means for reproducing stories faces in images stars with the celebrities of the entertainment world like other celebrities. They were to be distinguished by their well known as more than any other quality in them as in other celebrities fame and notoriety with thoroughly confused. The hallmark was simply and primarily their prominence in popular consciousness and made very little difference. How this publicity was secured. They could become well known either by flooding morality. Mary pickford or by allowing. It may west as a species are celebrities stars to respond in the world of sue events. And they too were fertile of other. Pseudo events is not surprising then that movie stars became a celebrities park salons in nineteen. Forty about three hundred. Correspondents were assigned to hollywood which was the largest single source of news an estimated one hundred thousand words day in the united states outside of washington. Dc new york city although not born with the movie star system emerged within the first decade or so of the commercial life of the motion pictures and under the appropriate cedo eventful auspices early nineteen to wait. An issue of picture carried an advertisement showing a photograph of the beautiful movie actress. Florence over the word imp and reading as follows. We know ally the blackest and at the same time. The silliest lie get circulated by enemies of the imp was story foisted on public of saint louis last week to the effect that miss lawrence the imp girl formerly known as the by a graph girl had been killed by a streetcar. It was a black lie because so cowardly it was a silly lie because so easily disproved. Miss lawrence was even in a streetcar. Accident is in the best of health and will continue to pair in em- films in a very shortly. Some of the best work in her career is to be released will now announced anex films. The brooklyn bath released march fourteenth length. Nine hundred and fifty feet a powerful melodrama dealing with a young chap he sweetheart and secret society. This action from the first of film and this advertisement was purporting to answer a story. The saint louis newspapers which is said that florence lawrence known to nickelodeon fans as the biography girl. She made films for the biogra- film company have been killed in sri car accident in his advertisement. Call lumley meant imply that the news paste paper story had been concocted by his competitors. The film trust prevent the public from learning that miss lawrence. I left biography for lend lease company and that in the future should be lending her fame and facing figurative productions. Actually lumley had planted the original newspapers thirty himself for publicity purposes. The whole episode including lend lease advertise. Reply was his only characteristic way of announcing that miss lawrence then the most popular personality in films was now his property. This was not the only such stunt that ingenious lumley use to discredit his competitors and to advertise own products. It was true that the big general foam company. Sometimes it's bradley called the trust. For whom miss lawrence had worked had refused to give out the names of actors. This is both because general film. We're trying to standardize. Film manufacturer keeping uncluttered by individual personalities. And because they foresaw that if individual actors became famous and known by name the actors would command higher pay. Among some early movie companies. This practice had become a strict rule but the nickelodeon public insisted on individualizing their favorites and gave them such names. As the by groff girl the little girl of the golden curls etc independent moviemakers light lamley singer competitive advantage and realizing that the public did not like actors kept anonymous then began strenuously publicizing their own actors. Incidentally they were able to lure over to their own studios from the logic companies the actors and actresses who both more publicity and more money geraldine farrar followed by mary garden. Sandwich samuel goldwyn. At ten thousand dollars a week movie stars became gilded idols the salaries soon where the biggest single item in film budget. A system is richard griffin off. A mayor explaining the excellent pictorial history. The movies was thus in a sense created by the public itself by movie goers who not be satisfied by anonymous idols demand that idols be named an nba apotheosis by expensive publicity in a word that they'd be made into celebrities with the characteristics described in an early chapter. If you go is wanted in a star was not a strong character. But a definable publicized personality a figure with some physical idiosyncrasy personal mannerism. We've could become a nationality advertised trademark among these. John bunnies jovial bulk. Mary pickford golden curls and winsome smile. Douglas fairbanks waxed moustache. And energetic leap maurice costello or benedi. Charlie chaplin bowed legs and kane and clara kimball. Young's cough is acting ability and symmetry of the face of figure became less important the capacity to be made into a trademark many producers not only lumley but also adolf zuccaro with his famous players in nineteen twelve and cecil b demille helps develop the star system. The keno of the new era was set when zuko imported sarah bernhardt who had been the world famous. Who'd been world famous for her voice. Acting the silent film of queen elizabeth star legend of the accidentally discovered soda fountain girl who is quickly elevated to start him soon. Took its place alongside the log cabin to white house. Legend as a lay motif of american democratic folklore and the legend could reflect reality precisely because there really was so much and whimsey in the star selecting process a former prison guard hat. Check girl anyone else who happens to have what it takes which included a distinctive commonplace since of personality but seldom much acting talent might get the quote unquote breaks and make it to the top. This help make the movies a democratic art and make hollywood the american dream factory in an age when dream and illusion will hardly distinguished by about nineteen twenty. The star system was well established. It has dominated the screen and much else ever since mary pickford. America's sweetheart was among the first stars. There followed many others. John barrymore me mandarin fisk james k. Hackett william is hard pulling negri. Dorothy gish carlo. Greta garbo rudolph valentino etcetera etcetera. This great innovation has sometimes been described as a movement from the start film the movie which included a famous actor to the film star personality whose mere presence made a film produces quickly found that the star system paid even if they had no new drama too so they could do well by displaying. The same star intern in a variety of new vehicles. The more money the film stars made for their producers the more money the producers were intern willing to invest in making particular stars of course produces had to pay well and invest heavily notes protect their investment and to meet competition. The high cost of making new stars lead the producer who had a style with proved bucks off his appeal to exploit him in every conceivable way before his appeal wore out despite spectacular exceptions. Like marlene dietrich. The artificial w life of star was apt to be brief filed. Very reason some sets prefer to play supporting roles in order to make their careers. Less ephemeral high salaries became news in themselves helped make stars into celebrities these salaries in turn reinforce system produces could not afford to abandon it. The great significance of the star system for literary dramatic form was simply that the star came to dominate the form. And make it irrelevant. Of course star had first appeared as an actor person skilled at playing assigned roles. Originally it was the play that gave form to the product but when the system became established the relation between play and play was reversed. The sign of a true star was in fact that whatever he appeared in was only a quote unquote vehicle. The actor himself has no longer tested by his ability to interpret the play instead. The play was tested by its ability to display the actor but the actor himself was an empty vessel. He wasn't true hero. Usually he was a mess. Celebrity human city event. The greatest takes a statement to show his familiar face and figure and gestures and always as much as possible in his familiar role. It was less he could do. Then how widely known how popular he was he was that made the film and kept him star again a self fulfilling prophecy of the true pseudo event every time an actor appeared in a starring role that fact itself made him over star and of course more of a celebrity east soon became typecast. This meant that every one of his appearances has to be more of the same. By definition than the stock could not afford anything strikingly new the vehicle would be unacceptable to him unless it reinforces desired. Image a sign of the rise of the sausage to noted by historians of the film was that about nineteen fourteen feeble mara. Few swear beard as attila. Berta kaposi rejected the role of saint paul. Because it would require him to wear a beard stars collie refuse roles or costumes which seems inappropriate to today's top personality which conceal the face already well known to millions casually before play had been written for a particular actor now become standard practice for a screenplay to be modified new character to be inserted or plot developed to meet the box office prove specifications of the stars star rose. He became one with his roles. Francis x bushman in beverly bayne. Who were the first starring movie love team. Romeo and juliet nineteen sixteen. Kept their marriage a secret affair. It would tarnish their mindset appeal. Douglas fairbanks mary pickford remarried and nineteen twenty in divorce in nineteen thirty five by the logic of world which is one that has observed existed really more through the screen than on the screen. People say jean. Gabin once remarked. I'm the same in real life as i am in my movies. And that's why they like me. Charles boyer received a letter addressed to him care of mailing hollywood. Usa in one thousand nine hundred. Eighty six the gary cooper fan club of san antonio boomed him for president of the united states. They said he had destroyed his political acumen. In mr deeds goes to town. everyone knows. Of course that star is not born but made the process was well described by edgar morin. A talent scout is struck by promising facing the subway proposition tests photo tests according to test conclusive the young release for hollywood immediately. Put on the contract. She is refashioned by the messrs. The beauticians dentists even the surgeons. She learned to walk loses. Her accent is taught to sing to dance to stand. Still so hold herself. She's been instructed in literature ideas the foreign star who hollywood cuts back to starlet level. Sees her beauty transformed recompose. Max factor is and she learns american. Then there are more tests among others at thirty second close up in technicolor. There's a new winning out. She's noticed approved and given a minor role her car. Her servants her dogs goldfish are birds chosen for her paso. Her personality grows more. Complex becomes enriched. She waits for letters. Nothing failure but one day or the next fan mail department might notify the executive producer that she is receiving three hundred letters. A day from admires the studio decides launcher and fabricates. A fairy tale of which she is the heroine. She provided material for the columnists her private life has already illuminated by the glare of of the projectors last she's given the lead in a major film posses the day with her fans tear close. She's a star the stars a pseudo event. He proves it by splitting up events. The fan club for example. Although these clubs are generally not fomented by press agent they encouraged by press agency by the storm. Self when the starve is a city the local fan club becomes a bodyguard. Following the fan about attracting attention asking for autographs encouraging. Non-members game the star sometimes has a series of photographs of himself posing in his real costuming character with some token of the season holding lilies or bunnies or holly berries turkeys centers. Fan clubs nelson eddy for example once sent a christmas box of chocolates to each of the president's his fan clubs in different cities the bing crosby club of ram so north carolina including forty percent of the population once persuaded the city government through name thoroughfare. Crosby street in nineteen sixty. Ricky nelson loan had some nine thousand fan clubs early in that year. The national secretary of the fan club for the ozzie. Nelson family was receiving every week about ten thousand letters in between one hundred twenty one hundred fifty requests to start official fan clubs for some member of the family mostly for ricky deanna durbin club with highest standards and others had limited membership to fans who one had seen each of diana's moves at least twice to presented an important collection of documents about diana and three subscribe to the deanna journal. Do the fan clubs calmly about fifty cents a year fan magazines. Have been both the products and multiplies of the fan clubs about a quarter of all magazine titles on most newsstands. We're in the fan romance. Category according to a survey reported news dealer a trade publication in april nineteen sixty combined sales. They then ran into thirty three million a month. Almost four hundred million copies a year. In addition there are so called. One shots which are not serialized publications but each of which usually senses around entertaining celebrity. Dick clark once all one hundred eighty thousand copies of one. Such dollar one shot by displaying his american bandstand and elvis presley one shot so nearly a million copies a pseudo eventful. Byproduct of the sar system is what time magazine has described as number six. These are printed matter between covers usually put together by someone other than the extensible. Auto biographer an energetic new. Non publisher bernard guys associates to should being their works through end of house has specialized in the pseudo products of the entertainment world. A typical example is ustinov's diplomats in which peterson of taking advantage of his baird mimics united nations representatives. The volume is prefaced by kirk. Douglas introduction reminding readers that appears with him in the movie. Spartacus another asura gabor. My story written to me by gerald frank were publishers. Which with disarming profundity concludes who knows in this life of ours what is really true and what is enchanting make believe. The star is the ultimate american verification asandra. Rousseau's emily his existence preuss perfectibility of any man or woman. Oh one pliability of human nature in a society where can become a celebrity and we're any celebrity for example boxes sugary robinson singing elvis presley way. Joseph l welch may become a star was the star has been established as a celebrity. Or the celebrity establishes a star can perform in almost any kind of peace a woman v musical spectacular murder mystery or against story provided. He's paid enough and he can represent any can preserve his real personality. The saw celebrity is an undifferentiated entertainer section eight. The star system has reached far beyond the movies wherever reaches it confuses traditional forms of achievement. It focuses on the personality rather than on the work. It puts a premium on well known as for its own sake is a generalized process with transforming heroin celebrity leads institutions employ. Pseudo events to build up big names in the united states is come to dominate. Even the world of fiction writing itself by contrast in england for example where aristocratic survivals and the lowest standard of living have retarded the effects of the graphic revolution. A good novelist can without difficulty secure publication of work of high literary quality which promises a sale of only a few thousand bill enough to cover production costs and a small profit margin but is harvey swayed us has observed. The american publishing scene has been dominated by few stars ernest. Hemingway norman mailer jd salinger. Who have prospered as authors. Probably because they could be touted as personalities columnist for a popular literary views and weekly books sections discuss star authors. Less spirit of dr samuel johnson. And that of luella parsons the gossip. Seventy about the stars private life. His work in roles perhaps a sweet suggested jd. Salinger is the greta gobble of american letters and ernest. Hemingway was a kind of douglas fairbanks. The host of other good writers who have not achieved star status whose personalities have not yet become public mix with their works. These writers suffer literary and personal obscurity. Here we see massive concentration on a handful of writers for reasons all too often. Non literary publishers then are less two midwives of literary culture then drumbeat is for an odd term arbitrarily limited gutsiest stars. The star system prevails is no one explains because american audiences are incapable of confronting a book unless successful miller might have added that while the star system may have begun for. This reason is in turn made its own reasons. American bigotry in favor of success and intolerance failure itself expresses star dominated world bestseller. Ism is the saw system of the book world. A best seller is celebrity among books it is known primarily sometimes exclusively for its well known nece and it is a relatively new phenomenon until the present century. No one would have thought of rivera in the bible for being the world's bestseller on the contrary in pre-democratic ages before the invention of movable type the texts viewed with awe was not popular esoteric if the sacredness of holly techs doubtless usa to come from their scarcity inaccessibility from the fact that few existing copies were in the custody of holy priests. This day the torah the pentateuch or the first five books of the bible the sacred texts of judaism enshrined in the synagogue is text laboriously. Handwritten on parchment the holy book. There are very book which had been slowly and reverently written down and handed is an heirloom from generation to generation was guarded from the vulgar. I to be shown to the populace. Only on the sanctified occasions of prayer of the sabbath of religious holidays et cetera. It was almost every way. The antithesis of distinctive writings our newspapers are mass circulation magazines and our bestsellers the popular book the bestseller which holds the highest status among contemporary texts. Is that what. She's university in the public eye. Everybody has it on his living room table. The community carries it on the train. The secretary reads at her. Typewriter is featured in the windows of department stores bookstores now. Even drugstores and on newsstands. The expression bestseller is of course another byproduct of the graphic revolution. It isn't americanism. Still not found in some of the best english dictionaries which i came to us in the united states at the beginning of the present century in eighteen. Ninety five the book men. Conservative monthly literary review edited by harry thurston peck publishing. Its first issue. List of retail booksellers reports of the six new books most in demand in one thousand nine hundred eighties in one thousand nine hundred seven. The same magazine published the first national survey of bestselling books. The word seller in england had originally meant a person who sold only around one thousand nine hundred word. Come to mean a book later any other item that sold well this transference of ideas. It's was was itself interesting for the very expression bestseller or seller now implied that a book somehow sold itself that sales bread marseils. This is closely related to the idea that this kind of book would continue to sell well simply because it was already a seller and thus there was a kind of totality the very notion a bestseller was a book which somehow sold well simply because it was selling well. The expression soon became firmly established. An entered common american usage by nineteen ninety-two bestseller had become a term denoting not any commodity which sold but specifically a book which outsold others about ninety three book. Men set the number of his monthly titles at six and called the list the six bestsellers there had been of course been occasion earlier lists but the woman was responsible for making them into an institution. The imprimatur of the book trade itself was given in january nine hundred eleven when publishes weekly printed its first annual consensus best sellers of nineteen ten and. Let us the book. Men's lists for retrospect of surveys of the years eighteen ninety five one thousand nine hundred twelve says them publishers. Weekly the new york times. Many local newspapers literary reviews and news magazines have post that only as news items of general interest in recent years the biggest and most widespread news of the world of books has not been. Who's writing. What but what are the bestsellers. Newspaper and magazine and television quiz oscars about them as a celebrity of the book world bestseller has all the dignity and appeal of other pseudo events bestseller. Ism has come to dominate the book world leaders in the book trade have themselves often attacked it in his economic survey of the book industry in nineteen thirty one. O h cheney called bestseller ism intelligible curse on the industry but he explained there was and there remains a substantial commercial basis for the institution. One way to make a book bestseller is. Call it one then. Many potential buyers wants to join the thousands or hundreds of thousands of the inner circle of the readers of the book. As soon as everybody thinks that everybody else has read it or should read it. A bestseller gets talked about and talk leads to the ring of the cash register by going into bookstores app to ask for the book the bestseller. Even if he doesn't he's at to be urged to buy because it is one of books can be convinced before publication. That book is bound to be a best seller. They app to place a large order. So it's not be caught short effort publication. That can be convinced that a book actually is a bestseller the more readily reorder according to change the statute accuracy of this pattern has given best salaries is strangle hold on the book trade. One of the most interesting features of the institution is how flimsy is the factual basis for calling any particular book bestseller speaker bestseller to use superlatives to apply not to one item. But to escort is is of course a logical contradiction but the bookstores a full of bestsellers as immediate celebrities is full of the biggest the best in the greatest the factual basis for calling any book a bestseller is not so much a statistic as an amalgam including small green affect along with much logic ingredients of intention frustration ballyhoo and pure hokum trade practices hardly changed since cheney noted them in one thousand nine thirty one are as follows a bookseller asser report on sales begins by transfer remember or he asked a friendly traveler what he thinks is the bestseller or else he sees stack of title which has been decreasing and the next step he sees a stack which he wishes would disappear and then he remembers a title on which he ordered too. Many taliban comes one of his bestsellers. Publishers figures are hardly a better index because publishers do not compare sales and seldom reveal them therefore any statement about books which are having the best sales cannot possibly based on fact even if the sales on publishers records represented actual sales to readers. Wish they don't and everybody then bestseller lists are tissue falsehood if not always what they say always in what they imply the publishing industry thus to lose not only the booksellers in the readers but even itself are promoting books then like auto government administration and some others has increasingly become a technique of telling attractive untruth without actually lying is not only the moral and aesthetic effects of bestsellers that have plagued the book trade. The commercial side effects have been serious in may nineteen sixty one. Publishers weekly noted that bookstores in the metropolitan new york area in their struggle to maintain fair trade prices were selling fewer and fewer bestsellers. This was because as soon as the book appeared on one of the more publicized sells it was customarily selected by macy's gambles to be offered as a loss leader and was sold by them at cost or below. Under these circumstances regular bookstores could not afford to compete. They could not find biased for the book at its list price hence did not order it. One bookseller proposed therefore that the bestseller lists because instead a worst seller list this cutthroat list no bookseller once except outlets that foot football a few titles traffic builders if they were no sell. This all booksellers was sell more books at a profit but public demands is best and it's bestseller lists as it demands celebrities and all this other pseudo events. The synthetic character of all them bothers most people very little the quality of being a bestseller spy. Everything still remains the most advertising advertise will fact the biggest news about a book the increasing popularity of the popular book or bestseller like are increasing tendency slowed. Over the most travel roads reinforces the mirror effect and makes it increasingly difficult to learn from our literary experience as james d. Hart shrewdly observed study the popular book. The most popular book in the short run is apt to be that which most effectively tells us what we already know. It's a kind of literary tourist attraction guaranteed to give us an adventure which you know all about in advance. It's nothing but the projection of our own expectations. The reason why. Maria cummings the lamp lighter of tes authors ten nights in a barroom both bestsellers in their day. Tell us more about what most americans with thinking. Eighteen fifty four than does rose walden gertrude. Efforts black oxen. So it's more than wallace. Stevens harmonium about popular feelings in one thousand. Twenty three is precisely that cummings an author an attitude reflected rather than amplified the experience of their readers. The book that time judges to be great remarks heart is occasionally also the book popular in his own period but by and large long live. Work reflects the demands of the moment only in the most general sense usually the book that is popular pleases the reader because it is shaped by the same forces that mold is non reading hours so that is just positions and convictions is language subject. Recreate the sense of the present today way as soon as at present becomes the post books that are generally unreadable for succeeding ages. The star system does reaches out into one field after another of american life. What the book. Trade promotes is invented. Nonchalance tone phrase not an art form but an artifact becomes less a way of looking at the world in a way of looking at ourselves the bestseller may promise it takes us to the mysterious east or the become a fun stop and we find ourselves back in the sanitary air conditioned facilities of another hilton hotel. What the entertainment. Trade cells is not a talent but a name the quest celebrity the pressure for will known this everywhere makes the worker overshadow the work and some cases if what there is to become well known is attractive enough. There need be no work at all. For example. The sisters in the fifties became film personalities even though they had made almost no films at all how thoroughly appropriate to that one of them should have become author of a best selling book in science to increase in precious is to secure foundation and government support the increasing unintelligibly of the task and the widespread pressure to devise news. Because concentrate on big names. This lease increasing emphasis on also surprises. Oscars nobel's national book awards critic circle awards pulitzer and other less known factitious universities attritional ref the traditional refuge timelessness nowadays look for big names and enlarged their public relations and press relations department to the university itself. A celebrity known for its well known this national politics with the full paraphernalia of makeup. Rehearsals and clegg. Light says adopted the saw system which dominates more with every election yet. Anyone or almost anyone can be transformed into a star. Originally a person destined for stardom is chosen less phase intrinsic value than for his capacities be built up. How good receptacle is he for what the public wants to see him. A star then must allow his personality to dominate his work. He is judged by his personality in place of his achievement in a world of dissolving moral and artistic forms man the self makers places them all but his figure too is only a figment section. Nine painting and sculpture. We find similar disillusions from exaggerated expectations of how plastic is our world. A photograph of the tiny sumerian cylinder seal makes it appear the same size as an egyptian colossus under malraux in his voices of silence shows how photography tends to destroy a sense of scale when we can photograph any work and make an accurate reproduction of any size. We please we lose feeling for the distinctiveness of every work. Many problems of the modern artists is moral observes come actually from improvements and techniques of reproduction in other words from the graphic revolution when it's so easy mechanically to make precise color production direct from nature much of the age-old challenge which nature offered the artists destroyed aggressively modern artists and insists that only now when they are finally freed from the need to represent can they work become truly interesting expressive but the force of the argument is reduced by one simple fact they now have a vested interest in non-representation much as for centuries they once had a vested interest in representation. Formerly the artists was the only instrument which could make a representation of man or landscape now. The artist is the only instrument which can make a nun representation. We need only to walk through the guggenheim museum. Visit the art institute of chicago during his annual exhibition of local artists to sense. Disillusion of forms the limbo. In which the american now floats. Meanwhile is of observed the feeling for any original declines as it becomes easier and cheaper to make colori productions over far as well of nature metropolitan museum of art cells blurry post. Sam sized reproductions of paintings supposedly to heighten our appreciation by allowing us to have them at our fingertips right in our own home. Formerly a competent copy. Savage jato by a member of his school hadn't authentic undignified urge. Now the all its own. Now when mechanical reproductions offer items precisely the original. The unique. Both originals and copies is dissolved. Both move into a limbo something like that between the dollars typewriter in the movie makers camera. Here's another universal tennessee of the graphic age we've already seen how the civil event derives interest from the process of making it how citizens become more interested in the performance and in the argument and television debates. How fans enjoy watching the process of celebrity. Making the same is true of works of art the faithfulness of the reproduction of shadows the quality of what is reproduced. The most refined skills of color printing the intricate techniques of wide angle photography provide us pictures of trivia bigger and more real than life. We forget that we see trivia notice only that the reproduction is so good man fulfills his dream and by foot photographic magic producer precise image of the grand canyon. The result is not that he adores nature beauty the more instead. He does amera and himself. He's impressed On the track or what. that is but I'm going to back it up little bit and just try chuck again see what happened. Was it missing words or was it just wasn't it was fine before okay. Okay now. I mean they're just had the gaps was were words gone or was it just that the words were spaced apart where i think it just skipped out. It's just the skipping rope skipping. Okay so i'm going to be wearing a little bit and see you from here. Be paid at section c. You something. we're just happened. That reproduction is so good. Man fulfils his dream and by foot photographic magic produces precise image of the grand canyon. The result is not that he does nature obedient the more instead. He adores his camera and himself. He's impressed by what he sees. Nobody forms that can be made or found rather by the extreme ever-growing cleverness of his way of seeing it figuring this camera he becomes less concern. What is out there. Photography is practiced by the millions of. Do you saw photographers. It's not oddly enough way of producing images with the life of their own detach from their maker which is elliott observes is a true characteristic of a work of art instead photography becomes a form of narcissism. Have you seen my snapshots of the mona lisa photography by enabling any mechanically adept amateurs produce a kind of original. That is a unique view of an unrepeatable. Magno moment of what was really out there. Confuses our sense of what his original and what is copy of experience. The moment is gone yet somehow. The photograph still lives by the almost forgotten axiom which one made but now dissolves art the images again more vivid than the original. We live willy. Nilly in a world where every man is his own artist using a camera every man can feel somehow that what has made is his image even though it has almost nothing of him in section ten in music to the gravity. Revolution has worked. Its disillusions the photographer. Who enjoys fidgeting with his light meters filters and electronic flashes finally takes a picture of nothing at all. His machinery is his activity so to the hi fi addict puts together. His precision components will for his twitter's pram fires and syria funding speakers. For their own sake. We are quite precise. We describe him as a devoted of hi fi rather than of music in the recorded. Words of at the drop of a hat michael by michael flanders and donald swann. Its home control at a single touch. Commit crusoe sound like hutch. I never did care for music much. It's the high fidelity. The attic demonstrates his machinery by by records of approaching locomotives of sneezes coughs street sounds and animal calls his investment and musical records only a minute fraction of that in his machinery. Of course this is all of this. It's not only however in directing attention from the music itself to the machinery of reproduction that the graphic revolution has had its effect inquire another way. New means of reproducing music have dissolved. The form of particular musical works until very recently every performance was unique skill musicians to be gathered. That's a practice together. For the invention of the phonograph. In eighteen seventy seven performance could be heard only if offered by live artists. It was impossible ever to reproduce precisely any particular performance in the long run. The phonograph had a revolutionary effect. Only on the number of people who could enjoy music. But on the very nature of everybody's musical experience thomas a edison. I perfected this lyrical wax record in eighteen. Eighty eight within half a century. Americans were buying records as casually as a bought books or magazines. Recent american dictionaries defined bestseller as purely applicable to records as well as books and a single year at the end of world war. Two over two hundred and twenty five million records sold. This man had been created in part by rapid improvements in the techniques son reproduction until nineteen twenty four commercial records and made by the acoustical process. San vibrations were directly inscribed on the disk without intervention of electrical amplifying devices. Record services were scratchy and al-sounos distorted after development of the radio. The electric microphone and high delhi electrical transcripts home. Hi fi systems. Well within the middle class. Budget could give out. Sounds hard to distinguish from those of the original instruments and obvious consequence. Musical experience has been confuse the relationship here to between the original and it's copy between the script and the performance of course the relationship between a novel and a movie that has been made from the novel is very different from that between the printed musical score and the phonograph recording made from it but a comparable new confusion has appeared in the american experience. The fun graphic of a composition has become more widely accessible and is vivid too far it a number of people then the musical notations from which it is made or than scattered live performances. People begin to think of certain recordings say by leopold secorski usually can play over and over again in their own homes being themselves somehow the true originals by which the other performances of beethoven brahms symphony i to be judged the image of styles. Kaczynski overshadows the ideal of beethoven. This inevitably becomes the case among the new music listening masses of a musical amateurs even though the life symphonic performances by ultras still a very special occasions amid flick. The switch brings a requoted symphony into our living rooms. Recording technique itself becomes an art. It is said that some stokowski is great. Influence on listeners of his era was due to his wilderness to work closely with engineers to make a product which mechanically speaking would be a good recording professional devotees like paul carpenter have lamented that the decline of those whom they call firsthand consumers of new music is those who use the composer's notation to perform the museum cells at the same time that the number of secondhand consumers that he's all through phonograph. Radio and television has vastly increased. Today it is generally more expensive to print a piece of music on paper in musical notation than to put it on records. The record buying public is of course many times. The size of the market for printed music of them popular song sheets and the record market has been constantly increasing is obviously misleading. However it's called a printed notation music gresture. The i first hand and to stigmatize a recording of natural moments. Gross through the air as secondhand. The question is much more complicated than that. I knew confusion comes rather from the fact that simpson graphic revolution. The very notion of an original over performance of music has been transformed mcgruff record in one way at least does to the musical performance. The motion picture does to the dramatic performance. It makes it infinitely in precisely conveniently repeatable but in order to make this product the wholeness and spontaneity of the actors or the musicians performance. Maybe shattered the movie actor in the studio may reenact the scene. It doesn't time so that the director of film can select the best take then to be pieced together with others simply filmed the actor himself engages piecemeal repetition finds it difficult to keep his sense of the whole performance. Which is now only. Metaphorically is no longer unique. Spontaneous experience even for the actor so too with the musical performer. For according can also be edited. Neither the film actor not recorded music performance then does his work in the physical presence and under the responsive soon of an audience filmed and recorded performances themselves become a species of pseudo event with all the attendant characteristics and overshadowing powers of other cities events the dublin laughter and applause on tape. Television shows only the cruise example of the new city. Eventful nist which plagues actor and audience alike can we any longer speak so covent confidently of the original. Music like drama and almost all other experience now reaches us in a new limbo floating somewhere between the form and the performance. We've come a long way from the time. When music was heard only on unique formal occasions when people heard music in concerts by artists. They expected the music itself to make the atmosphere. The event was music in a concert hall. Listened to hear precisely what the composer performer had to offer at that particular moment home. They listened while they themselves. A member of the family or friends sang played an instrument nowadays. Of course we still have our occasional home concerts special performances by particular artists in concert halls and auditory ihms many of us play instruments. But this is no longer the comment. The communist way music reaches us far. Connor is the sound from the car radios. We drive along from the am fm radio while we cook a meal. Wash dishes or work in our basement or from the automatic record playing hi fi as we play cards. Read a book or make conversation. A normal feature of a middle class domestic architecture. Today is the hi fi radio phonograph system with the speaker in every room music soothe in music encompass. We go about our business now. The appropriate music for any occasion is that which need not be followed but can simply be inhaled music in a word ceases to be primarily something which comes in individual compositions issue with form. All its own is said it becomes an endless stream. It's usually subordinate to something else when actors become entertainers dre only entertainment and music entertainment. We all want mood music in the actual titles of new record series music to relax by music lovers music dime by music to read by etc etc. There's grownup a- flushing business which is music into offices. Factories and public places. Music has taken place somewhere between engineering and interior decoration alongside air conditioning sampras ceilings indirect and cantor chairs music company which became a large business operation between one thousand nine hundred. Forty nine hundred. Sixty is a spectacular example of these. The velopment in the early nineteen thirties scheme was developed for using telephone circuits to pop music into places which music service by the mid nineteen fifties functional background. Music could be heard among other places in yankee. Stadium fenway park slender. La reducing salons cemeteries in los angeles and san angelo texas cassidy puppet factory chicago. Sausage plot pet hospitals the volts of the federal reserve banks and other stuffing plant cincinnati. A uranium company denver underwater the swimming pool eaton's motel in hamilton ohio. In nine hundred and fifty seven. The music library consisted of forty nine thousand selections about seven thousand five hundred which were in use at any one time each recorded on a sixteen inch disk in. The new york office has the lodge music building. These elections were combined and made up into groups of three eight hour. Reels of magnetic tape each group comprising a twenty four hour sequence sets of reels were shipped to the seven different music central offices around the country. Each central office had about twenty franchiser serving subscribers in the own areas. Reels went from one central office to another when each area had heard the tapes they will return to the office to be erased and reused. This vast operation employing a record library valued at ten million dollars played. Approximately two hundred million miles tape per year. Music became the world's largest seizure of telephone networks. It was conservatively estimated. That in one way or another music by music was being heard by about fifty million americans daily. Millions of music listeners heard was not however a set of musical compositions in the sense of the word. We don't sell music explained. Donald o.'neil who for over twenty years designed and packaged music tapings in their new york headquarters we programming. We believe that the best results are attained. When you consider the fact time environment and activity take restaurants for example. Breath programs usually consists of no novelty numbers without too much brass for lunch. We play a lot of ballads with plenty of strings during dinnertime. The program calls the standards usually given concert arrangements. Then after dinner we begin to speed things up a bit with some pretty lively tunes. Once individual musical items have been dissolved into different programming streams. The proper stream can be prescribed for any desired purpose. The most satisfactory offering is not any series of separate well rounded musical dramas. These would be too apt to distract the hera from his main concern which in each of these cases anything but the music the object is instead bathe in already half conscious patient in an anesthetic or tonic oral fluid in factories or offices for example miss o'neill's explained the stream must go counter to the industrial fatigue. Curve employee shows up in the morning. he's usually in good spirits. Accordingly music is relatively calm by ten thirty. He's getting a little tired and feels a bit attention so we hit him with something that will give him a lift around noontime. He's looking forward to lunch. Which calls for melody's in a more relaxed mood then toward the middle of the afternoon fatigue is likely to set in again and months once more we pep him up with something rhythmic usually with an even stronger beat than in the morning. That's what we call programming. We always have to be careful that arrangements onto intrusive after all this basically music to here not to listen to the desirable effects on selling production seem pretty. Well demonstrated the proprietor of a long island supermarket. Who installed music reported that most of his customers said it made the time. Go faster funny thing. Though we now find the spend more time here since we put in the music before they're all to music developed music for industry program which was approved by the war production board after the war despite growing competition. Music steadily expanded in some places saying a fifty minute periods of music was similar periods of silence to prevent possible irritation from steady stream is sound such periods where of course dictated by functional considerations. Oh by the clock not by the length of any individual composition. Music has always look for new ways of dissolving all musical units. The point is mr new once explained. We just can't let ourselves get into a rut a short while back. We're looking for type of music. That would sound classical to people who like popular music and popular people for the classics so he decided to record them themes from movies. Lydia blessed spirit music like that received a lot of favourable response with the growing use of music and other piping systems of musical programming ju- boxes in universal installation of hi fi systems in bars restaurants. Radio stations railroad trains. Airports airplanes in shops becomes harder to avoid the flood of musical pseudo events. The sounds which do not say what they seem to but only vehicles for personal moods and commercial images in nineteen forty nine the management of grand central terminal. New york installed a small broadcasting. Ceo and eighty two loudspeakers to flood with cannon music and commercials the half million commuters who daily pass through the station exasperated commuters appeal to the public service commission. Psychiatrist to for the terminal management declared that no normal person would be permanently Home by the noise held ross editor of the new yorker testifying for the commuters confessed that he was thinking of having an edge on punctured. A woman commuter vowed to protect yourself by growing air leads after these protests broke cussing the terminal stop for a time perhaps a mid twentieth century edison developed for insulation in public places device. By which a person who inserts a dime can purchase or have piped-in minute's silence then we could be comforted that in this branch of technology at least no further improvement will be possible section. Eleven graphic revolution has produced a new fluidity and all experience. We're not quite clear where the air conditioning ends with. The music begins to flow into each other. The forms of books and magazines and dramatic offerings merge through the pages of mccall's full page advertisement in the new york times dated august eighteenth nineteen sixty personals exciting books of our time. Read any good books lately. It asks and answers by naming twenty-one books that have gone from pre publication mccall's to bestseller them. Three quarters of these were the ghost written lies celebrities. What should more accurately been called non books the more different forms it becomes possible to cost anywhere into the more vague raith light. Become all the forms is a hardcover book simply an unhatched paperback. There is a paperback a hardcover book. That has not yet grown a shell dino warren piece yes did you like it. Yes pretty much. Which the movie. The book was it. The unabridged original the negative is significant or the definitive modern abridgement. Nobody's quite clear. Was it in one thousand nine thirty one or the nineteen sixty one version of cimarron. The original may mean the motion picture. The novel the comic book prince valiant and many other movies have derived from comics. The magazine article the musical score the phonograph record the radio program or television show. Not long ago. I approached one of the best publishers in the country with a proposal for a book. The book i outlined seemed to me was very much needed. The climax of the publishes consideration from my proposal was a conference in the firm's boardroom. With several vice presidents and the heads of numerous departments as went around the table the chiesa different divisions debated whether the book could be taken apart and marketing in different pieces could be made into an executive gift could be made into pamphlets and sold separately chapter by chapter. Could it be printed piecemeal on the back of maps could be marketed as a premium for a mail order house. No one asked whether it could be shredded into a marketable breakfast food. We hardly discussed the need for the book itself. And that came to seem beside the point multiplication forms improvements of technology inevitably make all experienced commodity when the moment comes packaging film. The movie has owner. Need not know anything about drama. Only needs to know is what will sell the rise of the paperback has it unnecessary for the retail to know about books most marketed with newspapers. Magazines hair tonic and canned foods advances in the merchandising of records now make possible for the consumer to try before he buys he had better by a best seller or nationally advertised brand. The marketing of recorded. Music himself usually knows very little about music. Like the torigian who seldom knows where he's sending. You need not know when you could sell you a tour package. The record merchant need not know his music to stay in business. He need know only which music packages sell all. He sees the package. The record package becomes more like that of a paperback with lurid fulco photographs uncoated paper when the same theme can be put in so many different ways. each way is to millions of viewers or readers are harris. The precious to repeat has already proved successful become almost overwhelming much of modern publishing. Their books movies television shows or music can be described as a review characterized the pet formerly used by successful imitators. Walter scott whose knows where for awhile. Outselling those scott himself to last ten years. He's been repeating his own repetitions and echoing his own echoes. His first novel is a shot that went through the target and he's ever since been seriously firing through the whole. The successful dealer in literary dramatic and musical commodities one who discovers a formula for the public wants and then varies a formula just enough to sell each new product but not enough to go the market artistic standards of the new multiform world. Sue events are best summarized bestseller is a best seller is a bestseller which does not want to write or at least read a bestseller will return. We see the mirror and in it. The we like to pretend we've seen somebody else we see ourselves. The most successful magazine is the digest. I gives us not only what is really and other magazines but what we already see or think we see would like to think we see the surefire successful movie or book. Ben hur spartacus. A novel by frank. Yobe thomas b. Costain mary roberts rinehart or mickey spelane is apt to be the best mixture of the proved to the proof. Formula a former. We have made for ourselves movies and books. Mary each other both us. The fantastic unreal image that we wished to believe wassels music becomes mirror of moods experienced becomes a little more than a interior decoration and chapter four. All right there we go end of chapter for That last page The only thing. I'm gonna say real quick. That last page way describes for the last ten years he has been repeating his own repetitions and echoing his own echoes is first novel was shot. That went through the target and he has ever since been seriously firing through a whole really kind of reminded me of the marvel movie machine. I think it's a perfect description of What marvel movies have been doing for for a while. Now like a very finely tuned formula and it just kind of shooting the arrow over and over to the same same hole in fact winning ironman When i remember movie come out into dozen eight okay. So it's not perfectly ten years. Yeah you're right two thousand eight so it's thirteen but i mean same same point. Yeah for sure I mean any any thoughts. A lot of this is a continuation of the first part and he goes to a lot of different Places with the photographs and and recordings someone in one of our book clubs. I feel like somewhere. I remember where but it was. It was in this discord. Somebody had talked about talking to someone younger. Who said why bother going to concerts the record. You know the record a stream sounds sounds better and that made me think of this this chapter. I don't remember if someone who's here now. That said that they had the conversation by someone. Share that story in here. Once the was partly home with Just you know. I think anybody who were up Into music from you know the earlier nineties late eighties to now. I think the the under. I don't know the underground scene was really more about going to shows and and just understanding that it wasn't about you know how policy recording was that nobody really care about the reporting was going to the shows the go that's changed now. I think the book sounded up. Like you know. Forty years prior honestly i feel like even when we were going growing up the ship had already sailed i. I mean i feel like it's probably worse now because people are more antisocial insular than ever but i think even back then i feel like the recorded version had transcended the live version. I think especially also kind of with hip hop where it's already kind of like with hip hop in a way. Even the live version is very much a recorded version. Because you're wrapping over a record like kylo going by. Oh yeah i was just gonna say it kind of depends on on his genre. I think In a lot of cases that for a while. It's been like if you went. People got to go to shows to wanna go to shows because it's not going. It doesn't sound as good as the recorded version but for certain type of music It's about like like punk music or like hardcore a lot of that was about like going to the show because you have like experience where there's so much energy inactivity and so the music is almost like kind of secondary like the kinetic aspect of it so i think but i think even then like what you said. The music's almost secondary. You don't actually like the music of it as much as recorded version is that there's other things kind of compensate for it but even then this idea is still that the recorded version is so much better and pure. He does like the compensatory aspects of the community. I feel that's a really. That's a good point. I think it was definitely a crossover Period when sticking back onto two shows And i it was never a big deal to care about the the kind of amp you had and the kind of guitar you had you just wanna show but definitely gradually it started to become more about. Oh i want you know. The i wanted this stack. I want you know i want this guitar. And then you know. I remember thinking that this is going against the of what we earn but You know now it's all about how the recorded crowded recording sounded and stuff like that. You know it definitely Happened i think we we saw it happen with hip hop to write like Getting the the right sampler and finding the right record again you know. I think one of the reasons to. That's a problem. In addition to what you said. I feel like recorded music. Now is hyper real. And what i mean by. That is more real than the real in that. I don't think a live studio before the problem with the live version. The recorded version was that record version. was trying to capture the live version and for a long time it was kind of inferior. It caught background noise or it didn't catch the real depth late. I'm being an engineer. And a produce if you ever read about the early days of recording so much of it was so hard to do and it was art. Their account learning on the fly but now with computers and recording tricks and the art of engineering and producing becoming an art in its own right with his own bag of tricks and his long history. And all this technology what you end up recording actually sounds better than what was played live especially after you process it and do all this stuff to it so it's like the library almost can't can't compete. That person doesn't sound like that. It's not even that person you take all the rough edges off of the voice mean. It's solis at the end of the day. But it's incredibly symmetrical. I mean even the drums now when you quantifies them Human being some people complain. Oh the drums sound too perfect but at the end of the day it's a cleaner war polish thing than a human being Can do so like how can live show even even compared to that like you're yet thinking. Oh we kinda see it with. Also the on. Instagram models stuff is to write and with Yeah And i think it's it's it's an even being acquired taste like 'cause i don't know liked the for me like the first wu tang album that should is dope. We compete because it's rough you know. Be because it's you know if you know i mean And and yeah. I mean you know i. I think i listen to You know a similar genre of music. If it's polished become something else instagram models. Like you know if you ever see any of my life you probably recognize him. I've i've a friend who is We looked at a picture of a woman and it was That's cellulite is bros. And i was like eighty percent of women have cellular like what are you thinking. I really thought that most women don't have cellulite. I was like i mean it was a woman in a bathing suit and she was in the beast. But i can't understood why because they airbridge cellulite. Everybody so you know like when you get a certain age you pretty much probably going to have a little bit of celje late at especially at certain angles kind of interesting but he looks at instagram all day. Long this guy right bank. He just thinks that's why people look like now. What i find interesting is that In especially music you have better production techniques. You know better equipment now. You still managed to find cases where people can produce on this equipment but they have programmed in you know all it just mixed into it those artifacts from the imperfect media you know so it's like they're trying to imitate that media to get that feel because it makes the more digitally produced music sound authentic in a real example that you hear. Is that record his. You know what i'm saying. Oh so they got it. In logic you can just sodium gonna lose so it's kennel torres thing about states author anticipate. They stays the authenticity in the music. You saying yep and also like they programmed drums since Heavy music you'd hear. The drum sounded so perfect for me but algorithms that will randomly insert the imperfections. So it seems like a person's drumming those all digitally created anyway. Richardson because i think some people's areas Some people actually drawn to the symmetrical sound but in some people's air is drawn to the slightly office of the symmetrical sound. So they put that in there so that people that are really attuned to something sounding more natural and also naturally reproducible will You know appreciate it too so this is kind of like gum both ways you know for sure i think i think gives you but i think you might have to commute at the. Am i able to meet. People are now. I don't even know. I think he did it. Yeah i'm just gonna say with with the with the music snuck to it's like we don't even have the the as like regular people we don't even have especially young people notably the the money or the time to even find the space to actually record live drums or even learn latin live drums. You know to appoint you know what i mean like we. It's it's such a difficult thing to do. Now it's easier to just you know Produce as they say in the box like You know like in In the computer. And i think you know that there's very hard we were talking to think of different Chat room about not liking rich kid. Music But i think it's the only people that could actually be in a band. Today is a feet people that from a privileged background. Oh yes are movies and stuff and even actors and producers and all this stuff. They're all rich. kids now. Totally yasser talking about models recently. Oh yeah you're being the privileged. Yeah i mean it's basically stuff for dilettantes now been up people just Could be good career. Big time and i i when we will get to check. That's what i kept thinking about like these aren't like with pseudo events neither pseudo artists because you know you. I don't know maybe it might be a hot take. But i think to be an artist is they. You know it's something got you you've driven to do in not you know The easy way to to to to do it if that makes any sense. Yeah i mean i think the difference between warrant to be an artists and wanting to be a star and star system is so prevalent in the arts now that it attracts a lot of people who wanna be stars and it's not fun being in being an artist as far as like getting more expensive and everything is paying less so it was kinda your incentivize when you enter anything to be a star at it because otherwise you'll you'll pretty much starve. You know used to be able to be an artist and not a star and make a living used to be someone who could work an act and you know be like a a nightclub singer and whatever and you might not get rich but you could afford an apartment raise. Kids save money. You know like that used to be a possible thing you can do but now if you can't Make yourself some kind of star than you. Better be ready to have two or three other jobs. You know to let you can't really make finnick nowadays either have to become a star in the arts or be prepared to just keep it as a hobby. But there's no making a living Just being just being an artist without being a star to me long. I think like we're kind of right on the least. I'm like in my early thirties. Like right on the edge of like i think it prior to like streaming and stuff that you were in like the early two thousands was like the last era that you could like have a bander. Whatever you could you could make a living by just having some decent selling albums they get a record. Deal off of an then touring. And i've known some people who like that day like made decent living off of it and mike day get royalties and stuff for mike. Random places that the album scott so but like. That's it those people are all like. Oh yeah you can't do that anymore. Even the people that we like before out of the business but people. I wear my band. They can't survive anymore. Because like you can't make any money as if not a celebrity. Yeah i mean using from the top even the celebrities. A streaming are even stars. Complaining that they're getting squeezed. Can you imagine the people to be in the middle of the road. I can only imagine because you don't make the money on the on the streaming you make the money on advertising and stuff right and it was a really Like one of the few good rooms clubhouse There was a really interesting law. Like mom i'm kind of side conversation Of people that are were were in the music. Industry In the hip hop music industry. And i you know. I'm i'm pretty ignorant to to what was going on but Basically like all these kind of major artists they have these entourages around them that you know that are producing inviting lyrics and stuff and i think that's that might be the only way you could make. You cannot be a rich kid you know for lack of better term and make music is if you you attach yourself you know to to make someone else star. It was really interesting seeing the Just like was really sad. i'm just gonna go through Parts of the chapter on as far as topics go. And you know people can free you feel free to jump in Around the stuff that i'm talking about but What a note i made was it talks about talks about how there was Testimonials about kind of the business and you know announcing what has been adapted you know like oh Books to money you know like like Does kind of announcing all these different things and How much he's an announcement of the event of the advanced hair Distinguised was bought for What was option and talks about a testimonial authenticity. After we depend on the fact that big money was paid by the movie producer the person giving testimonial in a kind of interesting. Because even the recent livestreams account talked about that that britney cooper slash professor. Cronk just signed. The deal was announced For seven books but that was an article in the route they signed a deal for seven books That damon young Was nominated for mtv award. The woman bennett Who are the recent book about passing her. She was part of a bidding war and and hbo when the rights to her book for seven figures and that was kind of thinking about how. It's kind of interesting the pseudo events around the stuff where you have things like the nba draft or the nba compound. Where the announced you know how people in the compound and like make these little events out of everything even the even the business Becomes something glued to your seat to watch box offerings weakened numbers interest- interesting one like when did people start tracking what the top ten movies over the weekend was like i feel like as fans you just care when the movie came out and it was good in that but now it's not enough people want to know okay. What were the numbers who did what what was the what was the ranking and it is just kind of made me think about how how full of co events like the world is he can make anything into A headline and i think we spoke before about it. they're gonna previous installment about how we're surrounded by content but no like context like. There's no would. Drowning were drowning in the information. You know but And i saw a video week. That was pretty interesting. It was by a past guests at his show. Sam backman and he said that knowledge and information is not the same thing. Information is just the raw material but knowledge is information contextualized by Insight or meanings like it's like information given a meaning or context or are interpret interpretation and he's like we have more. We have more information than ever but less less knowledge. And i think the information is all is all pseudo events and you know that's that's kind of what's being described in this chapter is a lot of information. I hey this is not true. This woman didn't die in this accident. You know that's a piece of information but the knowledge is knowing that okay. It was a fake story that the guy Planted himself that she got hit by a car in the first place. And it was all publicity stunt like you know it's two very different things Formation framed as as a knowledge and given context versus just being fed the cedar or event without any framing context around. It may come from aristotle. He talks about that as well. Actually about the difference between when you know something and you kind of our regurgitate it versus being able to actually explain it And how being able to explain something and being able to understand how and why it works is a completely different thing than than than just knowing about something. You know what i mean. Yeah definitely. I think he's a good point the box. The box office sellers thing. Is that like really infuriating to me. Because it at his it becomes something that actually makes it harder to find out what good movies are playing. Because all of the you like. If you don't just talk to people if you try to look it up online ov elissa just sorted by how much money they're making. Yes you're like. Is it actually good like or is it just something that like people are going to see and it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy to because yeah a lot of times people wanna see a movie but if abused it a friend is interesting for the abuse they third or fourth people. Just kind of write it off and a lot of people were like. I guess i won't but you know it was the same movie you wanted to see before. It just didn't do good business. It doesn't mean that it wasn't good. But i do notice Something being number one will make more people want to see something. Not being number one will make people say immeasurable wait for i don't know if maybe the thought is. I want people to talk about. This movie's over doesn't do well. They'll be less people. I'm not really sure. What is a social proofing. Or what i do think it kind of becomes a self fulfilling prophecy which is why all the studios chase the number one debut thing because it really determines the life of the rest of the movie. Yeah he goes into it for in the chapter a lot about the best selling book being sort of like a self fulfilling prophecy in kind of flake. Totally fake anyway I thought it was pretty interesting. Because i like the new york times bestseller list is like how peop- a lot of people judge what good books are as well like my mom. Does it like. Oh that book is on the new york times bestseller list so that means good like every celebrity puts at a book and at the top of it. It doesn't mean anything at all the stuff ties into each other. Because it's kind of like what you just said. People are drowning information. And you wanna turn it bay formation into knowledge but they don't know how because it's all content and no Context you start grasping for anything that gives you a semblance of contextualising. The thing so it's al-qaeda's 'cause how many books come on a year now a week. Now how many i mean how. Many movies come out. How much look at tv streaming. There's more content than ever before. It's almost like you almost have to look for these kind of heuristic shortcuts. No matter how flawed they are just to kind of put a semblance of a shape into into anything so in a way you can almost even. I kinda hate it. I can almost understand why some people would take those shortcuts even if they make no sense why. It's easier to go to rotten tomatoes because even reading a bunch of us takes times. Tomatoes score is overall. Don't even bother reading the individual reviews. Get a quick blurb about if a majority of them were positive or negative and call call it a day. Yeah i mean and it's not even it's anything not even neutral information. It's all manipulated and sort of like malicious information to get you to change your behavior to think things are good. That aren't good. Bye manipulating like what is the best seller. What makes the most money like. It's not because people want to see that it's the bestseller necessarily just sick. It got the best press and like they paid people the right reviewers to say garcia and stuff. I think it feels like a safe way to not put yourself out there and get embarrassed as well. Because i think that's another thing that people i think now more than ever people are afraid of being cringe To me like i feel it's especially in this era social media instead of like people feel like if i say duda wrong things i'll be put on blast on a bigger stage than ever before i don't want to like or i mean on on i see on twitter all the time this kind of phenomenon where someone is like making snarky remarks about something or talking about something and we talked about this before but big tweeting and it's like just the delight the movie or not. I don't understand what you're trying to say like trying to be trying to think kind of snarky use like. Oh this movie came out you know i guess i've seen worse but nowadays People have to do what they can. And this is good Attempt to as as any to Reclaim his throne. It's okay what does mean these like like there's so many bets hedged in what you just said combined with like snark in and you know hip detachment i've no idea what Like just go and unabashedly like or dislike it but they have to build in hedges. No matter what the be pliers they can kind of cover their ass and you know i. I feel like that's another thing. That kind of happens is people need to kind of take the temperature of everything and see what everyone else's say before they can feel comfortable writing and once something becomes like okay courses. Clear the almost overcompensate like like when unlike left twitter it became cool to like uncut gems once. I became okay to lake on left twitter. Everybody overboard trying to signal how much they liked. It became a ridiculously opposite extreme. I just saw two years ago. But i remember looking going through rotten tomatoes and like you know how the they used to have a maybe still do like Snippet from the from the review and and it was so weird like snippet would read really really positive but then the review will be negative or like snip read really negative but then they would still give it a positive score. And i think you know back then. There wasn't as prevalent as it is now but nowadays year right like it's really good. Analogy like the take temperature before they they can might like something or dislike something and and. I think it's really strange like when did when did it become like look the norm to to like you know Like or not like something. I remember you know like it wasn't a big deal. You like something or you did it and that doesn't have to be permanent. That's something we're twos like you could Like your sold With the white cannon like you could learn to appreciate something after you read. Read more about something or you know like it seemed like everything has to be set in stone like you can just say i don't i don't like it because this will actually did you know x y and z and then he can blake. Oh shit i didn't know that. Let me watch it again. Then you you know what i mean like. It's really weird. That like your your one take is your one and only take and you you can never grow learn and i think it's weird that it's it's it's kind of a leftist thing as well but prince weird swings totally the other way like back and forth you know what i mean like It's he was saying. I'm going to go just like you either like it like everyone likes it or everyone hates it like i remember a. I was actually gotten discussing today. on a facebook about the tv show firefly. And i remember back when that show came out or rather know when the show came out with when the movie serenity came out. Everyone was like you gotta go see firefly fire you gotta to firefly right and now everyone hates shaw sweden right so now. It's very kind of like trendy to like. Hate on josh sweden and now everyone hates firefly and i know these guys i ten years ago. Probably love that show. Oh yeah and. I think it's kind of almost part of the problem. Is that one kind of creates the other. When i mean by that is because you went so i was guilty of this in a thousands of all a lot where i dislike things that were kind of bad and For example like lately has realized so much generic stuff is just bad in the same way is just. The talent level is kind of different lake. For example where there's kevin smith and mark millar in movies and comics or grant morrison and quentin tarantino. You know who are in the movies and comics but way more talented. Whereas i think kevin smith is like more of a hack. They still kind of have that. Same gen-x fake rebellion that The kind of cynical crassness you know we had a guest we talking about the jenex rot and everything. And as so many things that gen-x made was just kind of shot full of that like oh look at how curse the guy edgy. We are like south. Park had over so like rebellious. This is not your mom's this and that We're not selling out. We're this and that. And like now. I see through it and a lot of things i try to read now. I get really upset with it. But i could tell part of what i meant. Getting upset is myself for having liked it. And i think it makes me wanna hate it more you know. That guy. almost. Have to overcompensate for being such a mark for like it's so much of this You know it's it's kinda bad yearbook photo where you know you wanna tear up every copy or something. It's it's it's kind of like that. I think there's anger at yourself for projection. You see yourself in the art artists. I feel like if i was a published writer at that time i would produce that of crap myself. And that would have been very smug and pleaser myself at You know a lot of Fo edginess and stuff. I would put so yeah. I think i think what you're saying. One ties into the other. Not only would. They have liked it back in the days. Part of the reason they hate it so much that they hate themselves for the cringing at themselves and yes. Yeah because that's the and i think that's. That's that's a natural thing you know like. I think it's something that We should embrace and laugh. Laugh at you know like yeah i was. You know i think we all. Can you know what i mean. A i don't know why You know i i. Yeah i think could be with the the whole lack of a better term like the whole canceling and stuff. People weren't worrying about losing their livelihood and stuff. Possibly but i think yeah you know saying you i was. I was wack back. Then you know. And i've grown. You know like it's not like anybody's doing anything criminal and i think that's like the flattening effect that we saw a happening you know for the past ten years. Where like cat-calling is the same. As you know a sexual assault thing that we saw People trying to push our or violence. Saikia words violence the oh yes one example is the shady men in media spreadshee- amarone founding sorta thing people would say is old you know so and so was onto shady men in media list and whatever and that would just becoming a kiss of death and that was like so tough on that list when you actually read the list. One person is accused of raping two women and the other person was accused of making women feel creepy and it's like okay. This is the ranking on this list or some kind of like color. Coding or something. They shouldn't just be so and so was on. This list. are people weren't even reading the list for themselves there just saying so. Imagine like you put on the shitty men and media list because someone saw some picture of you like twenty years ago with like seeing kid. You have like somebody just crazy like animates spike. Some some like Cancelled now that's cringe. One hundred percent. I think Going on is that. If you look a- society you know probably driven by economics but i feel like because people become so socially fragmented and Divided along so many lines that people are just looking for things to unite over two. So i feel like that feeds into the idea that you know. We can't really agree on these things. But we can all agree that you know this really crappy star. Wars movie is really good because we haven't seen it in a long time. I feel like people. Just find things to bond over when they comp burned in any other way. Just kind of you know. Reconcile the divisions between them. So that way you know keep chugging along otherwise what's the option you know and you can be kind of fun to to give an example. The win the woman nineteen eighty-four movie was a pretty bad movie. But you know. I could have lived without seeing it is almost like you had to see it even after you heard it was bad because you wanted to bond with everybody over the jokes and you want to you know three at each other about the plot holes and you know from watching that one. When the woman movie. I was able to then watch about sixteen hours of video. Essays entertain me endlessly all finding new hilarious ways skewered a movie and stuff like that and i was just thinking of y for movie. I didn't like. I enjoy like about thirty hours of content of to our bad movie but the content was better than the movie and it was like. I have to separate to that two hours just to you know. Enjoy a really enjoyable Three hours i don't Regret it because it was hilarious. Hilarious stuff and and but it's kind of funny like it's kinda you says it's a way to bond is like is like It gave all of a sudden to talk about for a short amount of tiran. Of course no one talked about it like a week. After it was gone it was it was done. Now it's onto the next thing bond over right now everybody's buzzing over mommy milk or something says something that twitter right now that someone from the federal tweeted for Did you guys see this. No not yet. I'm trying to tweet on everything anymore. Like sometimes it's like some things on commenting on but so for the federalist tweeted something from what they thought was the burner account. I guess have a burner account to drop thirsty tweets and the accident. He tweeted from their main account. And they're replying to someone something like Mommy milkers something. And they accidentally tweeted from its mommy milkers and then they deleted it. The guys named sean davis or something but every single person like media twitter early. You know left. Twitter has to make a comment as mommy milky and is already of is trending on twitter. There's already a bunch of memes that already got started and it became a trending topic. Search mommy mill milky mummy. Milkers ended in co-founder. Yeah he's a co founder of federalists. And i was like you know i'm not gonna make a tweet on it. 'cause there's nothing i can say. That hasn't been said already even only a couple of hours old like i think everything's probably already been said that's how beaten to the ground but i people dying for big conversation to jump into. This is a gift you know. These winfield said people are starving for some type of connection. You that's a that's a really good a really good point especially with One woman in eighty four. Yeah you to kinda sit the bad movie in order to yet to enter into The you know the week to week long on the dunk thefts to appreciate it as a group as we that is this giant donkey. Yeah it it's but at the same time like it makes me kind of depressed that you know. This was a multi million dollar project that you know. Just gonna waste resource. Yeah yeah you should have had like a b movie for that becca the days just as a cheap b movie on hbo that you watch. And then ye. France talk about like that was like a half a million half a billion dollars to make a cannon movie basically. Yeah exactly real. Waste of resources. People starving. Yeah it's it's it's it's nuts but it's ethic it also makes it funnier because you know these people that you know went to you know big schools in and make you like to be you know. The greatest of our generation suppose like the thinkers and actors and mirror talking. I'm like yeah the meritocracy right. You know like the cinematographer. Probably you know makes more money than i ever will write in the end. He made the one of the worst films You know we're so superhero films in like you know The past five years or so totally something else. That was in this Half to chapter. That was interesting. It was talking about. How books are kind of created and this is very true Macbooks get buzz and we have like like industry plants that people who are just kind of may be the next big thing in their candidate investment and you know they can't afford to have them fail so it's like like this woman brit bennett. They've been talking her approval. Wile amanda gorman if you look into the passes he share eighty met with hillary clinton years ago like there are people who are just kind of chosen like this person's going to be the next big thing and we have to make sure the next big thing you know it's that thing about We're going to invest in this person and make sure that they Take off but How people have get their books. Optioned to become movies before the book is even out and I know someone who that happened with. Where her she. She had her book She got a book deal like away because she went to a prestigious program and the book is already Option to become a movie before. I think he'd even hit the hit. The stands like there was that much level of of development done on it. So count like there's no way they're gonna let it flop or whatever because it's too much too much on it and nowadays things flop they hide that it flopped or talk it up like it didn't flop you know just because they have to keep saving face for the next couple of phases of what depend to get out of this person. You know what i mean. And so it says here how it became in axiom of the book trade. That booksellers were more apt to be interested in the book and more inclined to stock it and push sale if the movie rights had already been sold for a substantial sum. This was an assurance that the book itself would be profitable. So i when i just read there. I'm like oh that makes sense. That's why i was like. Why wouldn't we see. The book is a hit or not to See if they're going to movie out of it and option is kinda strange but this has made it clear to me. Oh it's not that they need to wait for it to be a hit to decide what the not to option a movie on it by optioning a movie about it so early on their pre guaranteeing that the book's going to be a hit because that instantly creates interest in the book but people like. Hey i heard this books have become a movie. Oh oh it must be good then if they already optioning it or i want to be the in the ground floor. What's wrenching become movie. Said i'd have read the book you know by ten. The movie comes then then. I'll be able to talk about. Oh it's not as good as the book or or in the book this happen. You know so. It's very interesting. The levels of artists in in all of this stuff. And i think it's kind of led to this thing where they're writing books now to be adapted like the author. I think is writing it lake. I mean we talked about the comic books where comic books are now being made as storyboards for movies instead of just trying to be the best comic they could be and i've been trying to get into fiction lately and i've been trying to read some of the newer stuff that people recommend to me and i'm like this thing just reads like a screenplay with a couple of screen directions like it seems like it's just that taking advantage of the full power of a novel these new novels but i think they're doing it because hey that makes it easier to adapt if i don't overcomplicate this. Like the idea of a unfilmable book. I think it's career suicide now where that used to be a very normal thing for book to be 'cause it was meant to be a book not film when it was conceived. That's a good point The house him. Maybe you know novels can't be written Today because Just the pow different things. Are you know socially. I know that Couple of years back. They had a few japanese orders that were actually writing books from their phones because it was like the the most convenient way to riders really interesting. Oh yeah very yeah yeah. Our listeners can move affected quality to novel. I'm sorry winfield grad just same people also shoot and movies with the only phones that was a thing as well Imagine writing a novel on. Your phone would be detrimental. I would have to imagine as as well. I can't see it. I'm waiting for the first twitter twitter novel. Somebody's write a whole novel on twitter as giant threat. Nightmarish back and happening. You know. I was thinking about a boasting talking about people's attachment to the technology. But i feel like he misses some points because When he was talking about the person with the camera you know One the purposes of photography courses to capture a moment right. It's when you capture that moment. It's your moment but I feel like even back. Then some of these hobbies and stuff were also expressions of clus. You know because if somebody had a cold cheap raleigh film camera and you had a really nice digital camera you can go out and take a picture and you can capture a moment and that person catcher moment but in a way is like my mom was better than yours because i got more detail. You know what i mean. My moment was better than yours. Because i see more dismal truth in my image was able to capture more. I feel like even with the hi fi person. The person that's in love with the hi fi equipment might be in love with the equipment to but and and they will do things record sneezes and all the things that he was saying and play it back But you know somebody with a really nice recording equipment. Playing something back. What they're saying is not just capturing moments is showing you. You know my equipments really great and i can have that equipment because i'm really great. You know what i mean. There's also like a a status attached these things that you know overrides just the media that you could use that you could play back on it and also if you do spend money on that gear people that get heads the quick. They're not just gonna you know do that stuff like play. The random sounds record. Random sounds no they will definitely use it to play music but what they're doing is a baseline is just you know congratulating themselves or at least showing you you know what they were able to accomplish so i feel like. He misses some of the point in that lot. These material possessions although they provide you a lot of joy the also exist in a way of as a you know there's different tiers you know the difference between a a two hundred dollar camera. Five hundred dollars camera and like a thirty thousand dollars. Did you back east take a magazine cover photo. So i feel like yeah. He's he's missing a little bit of You know of that natural lizard brain element of status involved in all these things as well I think that that should be spoken to his well. Anyone else want to build on that or or go in the direction. Like i've been talking a lot so i don't wanna just dominate the whole thing. I don't have any data a good point that a lot of a lot of that like tech. Staffers is purely status. Signaling yeah type of fetishism as well which isn't contradicting winfield. Another aspect of it as well. Like like status signaling. I think Yeah there's a definite finishes to it like like. I remember one time i ipad. My aunt had just worked was fine. But there was this a woman who's the commented. His wine bars last cafe ice go to regularly and would have conversation and she said yeah you know i get every single new iphone when it comes out and i was like. Oh really why. She was like why not she. Thought it was crazy. And that was like the ipad one and my dinner on the ipad. Four but i was like this works. Fine as books on it and all the My favorite comic books. And i don't really do much else with it. Like warmers and replacing it to replace it and she's like i was insane. That's what you do okay and then eventually was funny was Iphone i apple made it updateable Where the latest. Update of dia. Wes with stop working on things before a certain age so suddenly my iphone ipad one was rendered obsolete by force and accordingly. More and more the old programs wouldn't wouldn't work sorry for holdouts like me. We just refined with the first one. They're like okay. We have to get you guys. Offer that thing when way or the other staffing company around your is it is an economic threat dizzy. You know this capital thread running through all of this stuff. I think he doesn't really talk about the enough but that's just a minor criticism. I do see the point that he's making so it is still. It's still good to me. Yeah i think larvae also becomes like a cult cult of apple like this woman. Adding there is a lot cultish aspects to capitalism. I don't think they're even two separate things. Within the capitalist aspect in the cult aspect are really overlapping. And now and i are two separate things. But i think they're actually very very similar. I think capitalism is a is a cult the companies in definitely trying to cultivate cultivate cope. Colts was that. Was that the deliberate. Because i think that's this genius now. Actually i never say hung out. Because i have oscar. No it was very good. Like i never really realized it but is is that the etymology is the colton. Cultivate the covering assume source as cult. Because that's actually pretty. I never noticed that. So you just Did the accidental pun. I don't know but actually yeah it makes sense here. Nick sends say did it on purpose. Because i thought you were like schooling us on the etymology and not me. I'm i'm sorry. Get with your point. We re saying moore okay. I was just going to point out like this. It's huge in on a for anybody else's like edwin producer but Like this kind of coltish thing about that. Updating your music equipment and stuff is massive in an like sound design and music. Yeah there's always something new that's interesting with two was When it was really trendy us where this is kind of gone. I don't know where to swim. But it was a time where everybody fancy themselves. Like a closet writer closet novelist And no everybody was seemed to be work. If in two thousands everybody was working on the novel or screenplay now everybody's working it moved to everybody's working under fifteen minutes of standup at some point. Standup became the new Unfinished novel you drawer. And i don't know if they're even isn't suddenly replaced the standup thing or if the standard thing is still the new On frustrated unrealized outlet. You know but Yeah there was this thing where there are all these different things about the new way to write better you know and it was like oh final draft to help you get the screenplay and people just kept getting all the software but no one was writing. They just keep getting software so that new fancy wasted Stare at a screen. You know not someone. That cafe staring final drafts whereas before it he's Empty patron microsoft word. And those people kept thinking. If i get the get the fancier aca news girl she was like a clinical narcissist. But shoo can't fancy yourself as an aspiring writer and she kept talking while these new laptop she was going to get a smaller as more portable. It's gonna be dedicated just to writing and his I'm gonna get scrivener and final drafts. You she was always doing stuff and she was just a very lake uninteresting person and she just in just in everything to say that was another example like people were just getting new writing technology. All the time just gonna make them creep great american novel. Yeah people actually you take. Take advantage of those vulnerabilities in people's deficiencies. of course that's what you know advertising. it's all about. You will be better if you have this product. You're not better right now because you don't have this product therefore you should go and get this product and they and that's one thing i do know i've noticed. Embossing does come back to that point a lot like almost at the end of every chapter. He's talking about. We're not just talking about the image being the media he's he. He goes back to the image that people have of themselves. And i think Even though he didn't say explicitly what was in my prior point. He does always come back to that In the end that you know the the image isn't just the media is what we think about ourselves and image that we wanna project to visit as well. So yeah. I think he reconciled that so i like i like that part. He's very consistent in that. So i think that's good. I think the thing about star systems is very interesting as well because this parallels all over the place that if you read old comics everybody was kind of credited and even now like a of times after retroactively. Try to figure out who wrote into a lot of old comics. You know because now people care about that stuff but after a while it like aspirin comics people started realizing that there were kids even little kids are realizing not all these issues are equal. There is something different about one out of three of these issues and you know people started decided realizing that people liked a certain artists morning started realizing it might be worth crediting artists and writers because people seem to be Drawn to this kind of thing and and the same thing happened with with movies where movies. These not have not have credits. But there's something about out of human nature but we do want to town of Worship people maybe like what boersting said with a lack of real heroes People have to focus that need for heroes into something else that became that became the star. But i thought was interesting. Was the idea that star vehicle. But it's something. I take for granted now but being that is written in the fifties i think one of the good things about having something written so long ago or the sixties is that they can remember a time when it wasn't commonplace yet so they can Give a perspective on things that you take for granted as being how things always were. you know. Decided that it used to be that. The actor was chosen for their ability to Bring out bring the work to to life or whatever but now the work is judged on how well can showcase the actor and now it's a so-called vehicle for the actor and i never thought about that as being a strange thing that's just an movies are made but when he talks about. So yeah this kind of make make sense and and it's something that you know. I guess i've talked about without realizing. I was talking about when i was talking about how you know i'm content. Brazil work and the content is more about Aggrandizing the people you know who are involved in it you know and that were whereas with the work you know. The creators of the participants are Secondary to to final product. And how the only and the irony of it to me is that the only creators or whatever who really stand the test of time are the ones who are involved with Works what what. I mean by that is. There's a lot of people who are very popular in the day because they were involved in the type of content that was made to be vehicles for them but like five ten years after the fact nobody remembers with the are a lot of people you find that were huge in their day when you read like and everything but like who are they now. The only people who stand the test of time as participants as stars directors. Whatever are the ones who are attached to lasting lasting works. If you've got super famous and became super celebrity off of a bunch of vehicles that were forgettable except for the fact that they showcased your looks so your personality whatever you know ten twenty thirty years. You know you're not going to matter but if you were in casablanca if you were in a gone with the wind or you know something that people view as enduring work like like thinking about the people who really last and who are really memorable humphrey bogart did like i think hundreds or movies clark gable did like tons of movies machine at studio system but how many. How many movies can you name for each of them. There's property three or four that most people know those three or four movies that other ninety seven or one hundred would still landed with them in obscurity even if they would've have still been stars in their day. That's that's a very good point. Yeah nothing come. it's it's You know with the star that we see today are highly curated so they don't have that lasting lasting power because they always want somebody in particular age range lake. You know what i mean like. They're gonna market someone as much as possible. Then make the money in the they're gone and they replace them. Somebody who looks just like the boy bands almost like you know you aced out or it's time to get someone else in exactly hiroto posted really good link and even really Noticed this but the root of the root of cult is also not only in the etymology of cultivation but is also in the etymology of culture. I think that's a pretty interesting Realization that culture is related to call. That i mean i. I don't know what was nuts. low. Yeah i mean it makes it makes kind of sense but that's a whole different can of worms after thinking about that late over the weekend. That's that's interesting you will done on that one. Yeah i agree so This quick question I haven't been on clubhouse much. But i know that it's pretty active like a reading on discord but Is there any like that. You guys use ical clip often see like that's related to this Chapter especially comes right. Because i noticed a lot of Right especially when one of the last episodes but with the netflix writer for that his name or your adam veteran. Yeah yeah yeah. I think it's It's connected and we're going on a long time. Oh yeah yeah. I mean one thing like about this. Chapter is everything that he describes the celebrity as being to the hero. The influence or is to the celebrity. So it's kind of like even those reading about celebrities you can read this and learn a lot about Influences too late. You know we talks about vehicles for the actors. The actor himself was no longer tested by his ability to interpret the play instead. The play was tested by its ability to Display the actor. And i think what's interesting about. What's being discussed here. Where the celebrity. This is what i think. The difference between a celebrity and influence is right. Is i think in influence. Sir is a celebrity without the pretext and the pretext that makes us celebrity celebrities the pretext of Heroism or artistry. So i think what a celebrity has is what i call. Like a a decoy exploit or a decoy. Talent or a decoy on work vehicle is a decoy work. Like like it doesn't exist is event in and of itself the vehicle it doesn't exist for the artists to give life to its there to kind of give the artists are reason to to Exists and it's really about the person's personality. And i think one of the reasons why people really hated paris hilton and kim credit asha when it first came out is they kind of laid the game bear as in. Hey we're going to be celebrities. But when i'm going to pretend to ever decoy talent and and I think for a lot of celebrities is seen before how people are super famous in their day. But they're all forgotten. It's because the work they were attached to was kind of decoy work. It wasn't really the only celebrities who really remembered ten twenty forty fifty years after the fact are the ones who were attached to a real work not not content right. I think the influencers are like what are we. Just give the pretext. What if we stop pretending that. I'm being celebrated because i can act or that. I'm a great actor. I mean great movies. What did we said submit. I'm just famous for being famous Like an example is Jessica simpson had a friend. Who really really hated. Kim kardashian and i was like what makes them crash in any better than jessica. Simpson and jessica simpson You know as talented she gets saying. Or whatever and i saw like she. Recant can't sing. She's a horrible singer. But regardless of that i was like okay. Let's say she could sing. What's your favorite jessica simpson performance. Can you name it. What your favorite jessica simpson song. What's your what movies jessica. Simpson that you know. You would be watcher. Whatever and even know. Anything with jessica. Simpson's i'm like you ain't nowhere for being famous for being on that reality show so i makes it different at the end of the day. Then kim kardashian when really comes down to it. No one knows her music. Really you know. Or lindsey lower house. The what makes any like lindsey lowe has been coasting of mean girls forever. Like how could you safe famous for twenty years off of one movie like. She's like the the raw. Kim great ashi just crashing doesn't even pretend to You know going through studio and get Tuned and pretend to sing she just cut to the chase and i think people hate them because it exposes themselves as how shadow they are and how they view celebrity. They want the decoy talent. There they want to work there so he can lighted themselves about how shadow they are. It came crashing. They hold a mirror. I mean Harsh unflattering mirror to them but the funny thing is after a while. She kind of normal. Is that now people in our okay with it. It's okay to not even have a decoy career. Decoy town. The like it's fine. You know acting. That's what the influence or is like the stripping of its everything that's in here but it's like if you didn't even bother with the vehicle if he didn't even bother with the Fakes you event to The fake exploit like what have we all agreed that we don't care about that and we just like you for being. We don't have to make a movie. That's going to highlight your personality and give us the alibi for just enjoying looking at you. Your voice and and enjoying reveling in your personality. What if he just give you an instagram account. And all you do is just take selfies and you know. Just talk about nonsense. I think that's what kind of clubhouse is really really late. Club out the soil from room that the even stays so that really has no works of lasting value. Nobody's record these rooms. No one's going to go back to them like a say a classic donahue episode on youtube like is this on evaporating ephemeral. Because it doesn't matter you just dare to enjoy the personalities. I think it's it's a great at gonna also feeds into it feeds into the kind of culture that we have today because no we don't want a record of anything because it could be used against us. We can say something that you know in two years is not is not you know so you know and and nothing. Nothing is good enough to last anyway. So why even go to the effort. How much music. From two thousand ten's people listening to who plays old. Selena gomez music that even remembering neighbor songs is -actly. Yeah good point. And i think you know what we see is A posted a sign. That a doja cat than those cat video And it's just like this it's Seeing like we had rations of nicki menaj But you know even though that that kind of aesthetic was big with foxy brown and years before but now like people just want like legit carbon copies of the same artist not In nothing is really progressing right. It's just a such a formula. Everybody just kind of china is trying to fill the formula. And that's what Popularized say what you will about foxy brown little cam. But they're still remembered decades later to the degree. They are because they did have memorable songs. That people liked lake people still talk about. I wasn't some room. We're talking about the little kim Hardcore album and that's a good album. I listen to that. That's a good album. We're talking about the song drugs. Don't know if you remember kim songs drugs. That was a great song. I mean ghost written by big scan. Yes a good song. I can't think of any sambre. Doja cat people going to talk about six months. After the fact she had a son that was just council that that's it basically and that's a novelty dallas her. Yeah yeah. That's claim to fame got famous but everything was influential fucking last. I had no idea that. I had no idea. That's okay well. I know that's the only person i know that. But that's a perfect example of how your divorce from the work. Everything's a decoy work. 'cause you don't remember the council. Us no you've seen her a lot. You know what i mean. Yeah like everything is a publicity stunt. Everything is just a vehicle to get your famous. Yes to answer your question. I think that's how it relates to how this book relates a clubhouse like talks about a direction that things are going and it's gone to a level where i don't think boston could even have imagined like basically actors who didn't even bother to have the vehicle like what do we have now. We have reality. Shows is not even a A real work of artists like have a camera. Follow you all day and just see what happens like you know just Frame something out of it freeman narrative out of it after the fact it's a not with respect to reality. Tv and clubhouse people on really watching it for perform like austria performing of talent. They're looking at things to see dysfunction. That's not their own. You know what i mean. I think that's one of the major draws of it. Oh definitely by watching a car. Crash was like watching Failed car crash deal but ackley everybody's watching it for that. Some people actually like the personalities. I think i think so. I think a large contingent of it is it has to be conflict. Otherwise you know. The rooms that have people getting along wouldn't would would be more popular than the rooms. Where there's a lot of argument and dysfunction and people talk about things that they don't know if you look at the Rooms like even the server that ah posted that have been observed the or rooms that have a a topic of controversy. That's going to You know have some. That's going to lead some kind of conflict or a second outright violation of common sense and known facts that people doubling down on and just that conflict in dissonance that comes out of that is what people are observing it for. You know but i would argue. I would argue that. Even that is a distillation of the celebrity process that Boston is talking about. And i'll tell you how because what borsen talks about is the decoy kind of vehicle. That is just an excuse to enjoy your personality or enjoy your looks where the work is almost like secondary and just exist to highlight you know the personality and the image and the human pseudo event rather than the participant you know being highlighted for the actual talent and bringing about a real piece of art history but the other thing he talks about his being that it's all about the personalities now the tabloid fall under the tabloid fodder and the extra stuff on the outside becomes just as much of a draw and a part of the formation of the personality as the Acting so like you play a certain type of bad boy and your movies but it gets supplemented by the tabloid reports of your car. Crashes and you're fights and everything kind of becomes part of your Persona and you start them. You know so like charles. Lindbergh goes from being a hero to being a celebrity the messiness of his life and where he goes and where he parties and what he does and what. He drives all that like part of the start. The appeal is the messiness. How many divorces zsa gabor have you know in all these different things i think the influence or reality shows clubhouse thing is even more efficient delivery system because it combines it all in once it all works the Influences could have notoriety but a lot of people on clubhouse didn't did his regular people still messiness from talking about late. Well part of what bursting says mix the celebrity better than the heroes are everyday on remarkable this of them that they're just like like us and the clubhouse thing is that to an even crazier extreme daily. Are you secure kommersant. And you get mixed in into the mix. You don't have to go to sources you don't have to go to win. Place to cedar decoy work. Then after the movie go to a tabloid and find their messiness. You get all in one. I get to watch the reality show. Arctic clubhouse room enjoy your personality and tabloid messiness. That's why i think tabloids aren't really what they used to be because people are already being celebrated a message. So what's the point of a tabloid about eleven hip a tabloid article about a love. It hip hop star or something or somebody who tweets messiness. Long now. I just basically kind of puff pieces where he just look at. Tmz they just basically following stars in the airport and just you know asking them dumb questions. And and having fun with you know with the paparazzi lakers noel scandals anymore that to me tabloids. Even dude does no confrontational whatever relationship between these kind of new level stars and the tabloids because these people are tabloids. Their actual so-called work is basically tabloid level Messiness if you ever watch loving hip hop This eleven hip hop any any any of them. One guy gets both his girlfriend's pregnant in a season and love and hip hop and has basically project twins like. Is that guy with off off the air. Like like it's he's wearing it. He's wearing it all their this guy kurt on love and hip hop atlanta basically Cheated on his wife got busted got the babysitter or something pregnant. And did all this crazy stuff. And it's like. I mean the only thing you can actually scandalise these people with maybe revealing that it was scripted. And they're actually more functional than the are that's scandal you can have now is hey actually. Really messy person. She's actually happy. Happy family woman who just pretend to be messy for ratings are so backwards that would be the scandal. Yeah kind of like that girl with glue in the hair gorilla. Glue year yet yet. The scandal of the like maybe was staged. That's more scandalous about that. Yeah she got some kind of deal recently right away. I forgot what it was for up as a tv. Show something she got. Something seems ridiculous. Assisting is this whole friend. Then we remember what kind of deal she signed a new one zero out in the end right. She went to california to get the glue taken out. Yeah but pam remember what she got unless you unless you selling merchandise off of the. She has a fulltime agent. I know that she got a fulltime agent and society booking stuff in signing deals by came remember. What the i deal. I deal was but The h. it that she got has as clients Black china lamar. Odom and tommy and tommy lee. So you know already messy. People tommy's narino for music anymore you know. He's kind known for being pam anderson ex husband. He's kind of become a celebrity slash influence in self and black china. Like what is it was black china. Do i mean. I wanna friend try to put the glue grow ended up ended up doing and no she got some kind of deal. Wondering though like yeah. I'd be interested to know that. Because i'm just thinking what in the world would possibly be interested in about her. Now that the glues been taken off like is she gonna she gonna have to do something even more crazy to stay relevant or i'd be interested to see what what deals she's 'cause i feel like they would be zero interesting. That person now. I ca five minutes is up your your a great. That's a great That's a great point. I would love to know myself I mean i didn't know. But i forgot i wanted to search. Search twitter to find out ios was going to mention the. Did you read Yet this this chapter baby want. I can see A lot of people Going at the author for being 'gate-keeping you know Saying that you know you need you. Need to have skills in order to participate in our lighting Yeah i mean. You're leaders elitist were elitist. I was thinking of as well. Yeah but at the same time. It's like what you know. Yeah what's that really a think that's necessarily a bad thing. That's where different genres of music. Come from you know like wanna listen to. People are particularly great at music. Listen to that kind of stuff. But you know you don't have to become a you know concert Kenniston in today's world. Like you know everything wants to like get flashing. You know like You you have to be good really good at everything or good at nothing really weird. Things have like lots of musically talented people by going back to the rich kids like really musically talented people but making music that that you know kind of acquires bear. Little talent yeah. I mean i think being good at everything is the same as being good at nothing at the younger day. So i think you're right when he's eight. Both you said you have to be good at everything are good and nothing but is there really a difference because most people are good at everything supposedly See how they do any when things really not that great at the end of the day Like like for example. Someone like most of those disney kids who are like triple quadruple threats. They're not really great singers. And that really great the one. That actually is a pretty good legitimate singer. Ariana grande if you notice she cut out everything else and just things now. 'cause you actually has legitimate talent in that character credit. She can hit really high notes. And do all that stuff you know lake but someone explained the gomez like what should we do. She's doing a cooking show now like she's one of those famous for being famous people to me like she shacked in one movie. Then she Was hosting like x factor. One of those shows. I think and then she does not many sure what you consistently does your I was gonna flip through the rest of the chapter but binding means if for anybody wants to say anything related to this book or something. You know really try culture today that remind you of this book. Feel free a okay. Here's something the idea that The idea that authors are kind of celebrities now as opposed to. I guess at the time at the time i was happening in england but you know how the star system is Kind of infiltrated. If the traded everything as if anybody has any other examples of things where people become Stars were maybe stars warranting. We're gonna thing before. I'm when example. I can think of is how david stern the commissioner of the nba back in the day said that he wanted to make the nba in such a way that we have our mickey mouse. Goofy are donald duck. Are bugs bunny like he wanted to create like I i kinda. I tonic characters or stars out of the players before that wasn't really what the nba was even though it always had like it's top players and it's worst and its worst players who's always like a a hierarchy now but he really wanted to So that's when you really see liked the. That's when you really see the michael jordan larry. Bird patrick ewing era where where it was full of and the nba still plagued by that now like now all basketball conversations are about go go go. No one really talks about really teams and play and who has the best defense and strategy. It's all just basically treated as a showcase for constant conversation about individuals and and stars and the end of each game is not about. Hey how great was that play. It's what does this say about The chances lebron being the go okay. He got title one more title. Is he to go now. Or as michael jordan's still to go. has crept up on kobe. Go go go go like. That's an example. When example had a star system has overtaken in industry as anybody could think of other ones. Maybe it's easier to think of a system that that doesn't have it. Maybe there's so many easier to try to isolate. When that doesn't. I don't know coin out about directors. And how you know by the way. I remember directly or like you know it's like spielberg mobile or Who's the guy who could build build you. Tim burton movie But now these directors directing other people's stuff you know the getting there. I think you spoke by the team before like this okay. We want to see how this director rex spiderman. Stuff like it's not even you know a directors on a horror film director steak on a love story. Oh no it's kind of interesting is in a way. That's kind of a move backwards Like for example in the studio system. That's kind of what directors were like It was kind of like you were worked for the studio and the studio had a bunch of projects and you kind of got assigned to projects so he might campaign to get a project and actors are carolina. Same thing they were employees at a studio and then the star system that elevated the actors also you know similarly elevated the elevated the director right. But what's interesting is. I think what you're describing actually is a move backwards. Antics happened both ways. Like like you know how this book was talking about the not. His book was talking about how things became vehicles for Actors and everything about showcasing. The actor and i feel like it's kind of moved back in the opposite direction whereas like say for example. Everybody who's in a marvel movie right. None of those with the exception of may be robert downey junior but even robert downey outside of the marvel movies. I don't think he does that. Great the Sherlock holmes movies but for the most part the characters the the work is bigger than the actors As far as people care about chris. Evans i care about chris evans. As captain america people really care about black panther more than they really care about. Chadwick boseman We're back to a place where the actors and the directors are existing to serve the The work the work being equal pretty actor. I think the difference. I think what you're noticing is that what is being reverse toward is a lower calibre product. Like we've moved away from the star system Where where the the work exists to highlight the actor director but now the kind of stuff that the actor and director is being subservient to is just shit content. You know what i'm saying like it's not like a move backwards they can create another great casablanca or or something like that. Or you know. Madame bovery movie something. That was a time this movie. There are just so. I think if anything the content has kind of become deceit or event the franchise the whatever that's become the star like the celebrity is the ip. I think maybe that's what Your i'm sorry for him talking. But i'm kind of working out in real time. I think that's what it is. I think the content is now and the ip is now the suto event is now the celebrity and whatever they found a way to even cut the human out of the system. Now the vb doubt things have to exist serve spiderman. Now things have to exist to bring batman. This have our six batman movie. Who's going to be batman this time. Everything is existing so now robert patterson and the director and everything is existing now so we went from a time where it was about serving a work to about serving a personality to now about serving in ip so it's been totally Yet the game in gotten by the corporation right because that's is making the money at the end right. It's the yeah that seems to fully in service of them being able to claw back and put in all the control totally exactly puts them in total control. Because now you don't have to fight with a cerny celebrity star you know who's bothering you for more money or who's unpredictable. Or maybe gets drunkenness. Messy all the time. Now you've internalized that celebrity into your Ip spiderman a celebrity batmans a celebrity. But it's like In that sense it's kind of a contest between who the big hero is right because so breeze meant to be heroes but you know you have a hero. Supposedly playing a hero an archetype. That's been you know you you grow. You've grown up with so it's just about the eagles i feel like in those situations. Most of the time the hassle win but in the rare case where the person that gives you know life to the hero is very unique in doing so and can't be. Replicated can't be replaced than the celebrities still have have the have the leverage you know. Yeah i mean. I think on an annual Think they can back. It may be. The movie studios are following. What boggled did and in the ninety s. i remember like there'd be a bunch of different spider-man's drawn by different people. And you know like people aren't like when able to create anything it was just you know like amazing spider spectacular spiderman in this got into third But at least back then you know you can follow. A certain artist is a big mcfarland. Then he went on went on and started image but. I don't think that that that can happen these days. You know while. Chris evans is gonna always be kind of kinda screwed narcolepsy. These type think everybody's type. Pipe the but also as much as people like chris evans. If he does leave they'll find someone else. Pay captain america and the marvel fans will fall in line because i have not seen the marvel Fans dislike a casting yet. Like what if the marvel fans are really this lake. I think don't make themselves like it if they have to. You know 'cause even the bad ones like for example benedict. Cumberbatch is doctor. Strange i think is very bad miscasting. I think he's kind of boring in that. Really bad accent like where he tries. Here's a thing that The house actor does this certain british actors who think doing an american accent just doing the flattest affect lewis way of talking possible so the british guy. Who's the lead actor legion. Does it Hugh laurie dozen house. Whereas i i'm gonna talk like this. And i'm an american now and you know like that's the american accent he does that. I'm like these guy doesn't mean me doctor strange at all but the movie made shit ton of money into the second one you know so i think the people are just really kind of irrelevant. I think the fans are at a point. Where on this you just total shit. They will put up. Wherever you put in those in those roles I think i'd like to see them. Replace robert downey junior. Because i feel like he's he's talking to your he'd be really tough and chris hemsworth to them to in particular. Ah pretty irreplaceble vitamin he could be. He's been a rations. But i feel like those two It'd be very difficult to replace them. I think even christians were can be replaceable but he is less replaceable than than the others. I think i think. Even i think chris evans is going to be counter. The top one. But we'll see but Ha'aretz where to go to your example but the ninety thing allowed that's by design because when the image thing happened did a similar thing to the nba where they built a star system and they really made a lot of money on the stars. Rob highveld todd mcfarlane. Jim lee and each of those made a million dollar comic book. Each time with those people made spiderman. When was number one on comic book of all time until like expert until like exporters. There were all the q. Judge whatever the all got full themselves and went to image and then marvel entered a dark phase where they had to get knock off artists of these people and i remember reading somewhere that said they were never going to let a star system. Get that big with. The stars became bigger than the characters a marvel itself because they had a mass exodus of fans. Follow them over to Image and if you noticed they've never really built that type of they never let us have star power to be built again and i think this they're bringing to the movies as well they're taking the chinese takeaway star directors and tick away star star actors Yeah so now is just is king The they killed the work in favor of the star actor and you know whatever the star director to a degree and they even killed that and now is just the content. The ip is basically The start everyone creates in hopes of getting attached to an ip adam. Adam that or not myself that made that point that somebody makes a really good Personal vision movie as just an audition to get content like like. He did a great indie movie. Let's see how you do it. Spiderman asked me point that kathy yan lady this movie that people were very impressed with so now gave her birds of prey overdue. Rene people elect selma now. She's gonna do new. Gods for warner. Shouldn't that the dc book is just a very weird weird system. Make martin scorsese rubric. Martin scorsese did mean streets so that he could do Masters at universe. You know just something weird like that. Be too old equipment. And i think the punisher martin scorsese taxi drivers and he said hey. Let's see how he does. Punish those travis bickel. It's kind of same thing yuppies. Punishes a better actually. Yeah i met until. I really liked this book. Yeah actor good book yen in the fact that was written by with forty years ago longer. no according forty. Oh my god. Yeah you're right you doing what i do. You keep the sixties frozen at you know when you were looking kid. I did the same thing as oh no wait a minute. Twenty more years past. That's not the sixties. Not forty years ago anymore. I was talking to talk. Sixties is frozen as forty years ago to me until i stop and think about it. What else is i think. I think talks about with photography. What's things almost everything in here. You can Accelerated to the to the Internet aid so. I think what they talk about here in pawtucket affi if you read it with instagram in mind you realize that ramp exact same phenomenon. He's discussing like the internet has taken everything he's talking about and Extended it into into absurdity. So it's like What are you looking like. What are you talking about here about. How the faithfulness of reproduction overshadows equality. What is produced and in how the foot the because more about the extreme goring cleverness of the photographers way of seeing the thing rather than its fidelity to the original Thing instagram takes it even further. Because now which filters and all this stuff you can add all these effects to things that you didn't have the skill to produce as a camera person you just slap on like one or two filters and suddenly looks even even better than reality. it's another example of the hyper reality. I think that the way very good about this book. That is not the same boat yard and those other. French guys is Some explained to me the other day. Why someone who's an expert on board yard dispensary whiteboard yard. Books are so hard anything similar akra and simulation the reason why It's so impenetrable as because the french thinkers right as if you're following their evolution of thought so when you read like say the cons for seminar he writes as if it's a a series you know you're expected to have read the first three and you can need to read the first three to are fully appreciate the fourth so people will tell you. Oh la cons. Fourth seminars is best in or the six one and someone jumped to the six one and struggle to read it not realizing that whether you think is best or not your intended to read the first five which is a very daunting thing at someone. Told me you'll never really understand similac simulation or whatever if you don't read everything came before and i looked at his whole bibliography. I'm like oh my god. That's a real project. But this thing is totally made to be self self Contained and i think that's probably where it is so much setting up the stage in a way that you don't get with a lot of french thinkers and other intellectuals because he's not relying on you to read anything outside of this book to understand level of tedium in the setup of this book but i think in service of making it a complete self-contained intellectual project but you need to come at with any pre existing knowledge straightforward Lots of analysis analysis but like were like store. All our anecdotes about you know. Playing the music and grandsons was essentially states. Mr the The cougars points really. Yeah i mean. I have nothing else to say so so so up to you guys if you have anything else to comment on going. I think i'm i think we covered everything me. Yeah i think it's fair that we have to push it actually. I think we was that three hours. So yes so we. I mean we've definitely is kind flowing. I didn't realize it yet. But i think a good place to end it. Yeah but I honestly don't you remember the rest of this book so it's gonna be like reading it with with you guys so that'll be fun so there's nothing super problematic that's come out after eating is not but who knows who knows It'd be interesting to see.

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16: Tyler Cowen - The Revolution Will Not Be Marginalized

The Portal

2:18:17 hr | 1 year ago

16: Tyler Cowen - The Revolution Will Not Be Marginalized

"You found the portal. I'm your host Eric Weinstein today. Get to sit down with one of my favorite conversationalist Tyler Cowen. WHO's here from George Mason University where? He's a professor of Economics Tyler. Welcome to the portal. Thank you Eric Now When we were talking about what topics we begin with? I didn't want to begin with economics and you suggested the apocalypse is a great place to start now. The great benefit of this is that if we get past it the rest of the conversation will be post apocalyptic. The apocalypse itself is economics. Of course but I was just thinking that virtually any good theory of politics need some notion of the apocalypse. Let's say you thought at the time horizon for the universe or human civilization where potentially infinite you would then be so concerned with minimizing existential risk. That nothing would get done whereas if you think well. Mankind has another eight hundred years left on earth on average and by that time probably would have blown themselves up or an asteroid will come then you think what glorious areas things can we do with those eight hundred years and it's quite a difference in perspective so an infinite time horizon might actually choke off rational thought about political decision-making so is there any possibility for keeping the apocalypse. Exactly eight hundred years away like a donkey with a carrot dangled in front of it at a fixed distance that that would be the strategy in view right that you always think it's eight hundred years away but think of it is like a problem from from finance so you're right naked put on a security while it's going to bankrupt you at some point but any given month any given day the chance of that happening is probably quite small so the apocalypse may be like the proverbial naked put. It's out there where the chances very small the optimists always sound like. They're right in the sense. They are right now. Steven pinker would claim of at the end of the day. If the clock ticks for long enough it's boom mm-hmm and by but in the meantime let's do something grand and glorious now tyler you have a Sort of portfolio of different ways of communicating with the world. Have you ever dragged Steven pinker onto a podcast which you do under Conversations with Tyler or have you discussed His is bizarre notion of optimism. On Your Famous economics blog marginal revolution with Judy with your colleague. Alex my podcast conversations with with Tyler has an episode with Steven Pinker and I sat him down in a chair. The way you did with me and I said Stephen the cost of destroying the world by pressing a button is falling doing all of the time every year at some point it will only cost say twenty thousand dollars to take out a major city. A how long do you think the world is actually going to last given that demand curve slope look downwards when prices fall people. Do more things. Destructive weaponry is becoming cheaper. How can you be optimistic? I asked him no good answer. I would say evasion. He said well my theories. Not Predictive is just a way of thinking about it so so it instantly falls apart it falls apart. I don't know if it falls apart instantly because weaponry has spread more slowly than we might have thought. So you read nuclear theorists in the fifties and sixties. They think a Third World War might becoming quite soon. They were wrong. You read worries about proliferation from the eighties nineties. They sound horrible. I wouldn't say it's been great. North Korea now unhappy about that but at the same time the weapons have not been used. So there's something fundamental about the models we don't understand you can ask the question. Why didn't al Qaeda hire a bunch of stooges to go into Tyson's corner shopping shopping mall with submachine guns and just caused terror? That didn't happen. So the logic of choice of wielding destructive power is one of the issues and social science. We I understand least well I would say and there is perhaps some hope of salvation. So we're not sure pinker falls apart instantly but I didn't feel pinker defended pinker very well and on my blog log marginal revolution I did review his book and my worry is that there's an observational equivalence. With how you look at the data so you could say well deaths in wars have been going down. We'll continue default. That's possibly true but another model is the more destructive weapons are the less frequent wars things will seem great for quite a while but the next war when it comes will be quite a doocy so in some sense this is the great moderation which last time was about market volatility here. It's about the volatility of human violence and great great moderation may contain the seeds of their own destruction. Well again I would want to be cautious there because we don't understand destructive decisions very well. Like why did Hitler invaded Russia. We know a lot about it in the documented sense. But I don't feel it's understood very well Agreed and I agree that we don't know why so. Few reservoirs have been poisoned Relatively low tech Options in the Las Vegas shooting for example showed what a small mall level of innovation in mass killing can do to really amp the body. Count if that's what somebody is trying to optimize So I I think that there is a huge mystery but I don't think that pinker from what I understand of his basis for optimism Is really getting sitting at the People who listen to this podcast And have heard me. Elsewhere have heard me complaining that it's as if he's neglecting a potential energy term but for violence silence and so the realized violence as you were pointing out has gone down but the potential for violence is enormous as the cost falls. The access to violence wants a of this particular nature seems to put it into far too many within reach far too many hands one of our saving graces could be that the contagion effects from methods violence seem pretty strong. So we're in a time where in the US shooting up schools as a thing to do it happens more more often by some metrics than it used to in the nineteen seventies. Being a serial killer was somehow like the thing to do. So if you're inspired by what people have done just before you and you're not very innovative. It could be that violence and lack of innovation or somehow correlated and contagion effects. Menial kill you know a terrible number of innocent people bill but it's still will quite limit. How much damage you do to? The world is all in terms of our in D- Thinking about terror innovation is is quite interesting. It seems to me that it's hard to remember that. There is no known linkage between suicide bombing and Islam Islam- Before the the Beirut barracks bombing if I'm not mistaken. It came from three Lanka in the approximate sense. The idea the they're not the only one that they didn't they really perfected after the Beirut barracks bombing and then it sort of came back to the Middle East do I have that I'm not sure on the timing But they're very few groups that have been using suicide bombing in the modern era. Yes maybe the Kurds. The Tamils in Israel Laka and various Muslim violent movements jihadi movements The striking thing about nine eleven is how innovative if it was. That's what really ought to scare us but it does seem also. Such innovations are pretty scarce. Well in that that in some sense at a- Afghanistan was like an RND lab for al-Qaeda and one of the things. I believe I remember was that there was a taped conversation. Conversation within Al Qaeda that had leaked in which various groups were deciding. We're trying to decide whether this was the greatest thing they'd ever done or whether it was a terrible move because it was going to cause the loss of their rnd let you know Karlheinz Stockhausen the German composer. He said while it was such a wonderful a work of art and obviously he got pilloried for that comment. I'm not sure what he meant by. It's a terrible thing to say I wouldn't say it but it still getting at some aspect of nine eleven. That was quite different than it was an attempt to innovate. Well I mean could we. Could we go there. I've talked on this program about message. Violence which is violence. That is made Particularly theatrical for the purpose of underscoring message for example affecting position of kindness which clearly early Ends up Torturing somebody like you know drowning them in a tub of their favourite wine or something like this that there's something very perverse perverse about certain kinds of violence whose where the intention is to amplify the underlying harm in a way that animates the imagination in in some sense The Jordanian pilot video which was cinematic Gorgeous and his sick as could possibly be imagined that was released by Isis. This would be in this realm in. Is there a sense in which we can look at nine. Eleven is deliberately theatrical and artistic most likely it was was as I understand it. And if you look at the targets chosen the World Trade Center was not actually that economically important It certainly was not politically the important but they were the tallest structures. There is a theory they would collapse in a certain way and it seems they did. They did So it does seem artistically stictly motivated in some sense and there. Is this odd obsession of many dictators with the arts which I think is also poorly understood but it also gets gets at the notion that the totalitarian and violent impulses in US can be severed from innovation. Don't necessarily have to be pleased to have a high agency. Psa to read for you from XPRESS VPN WHO's a returning sponsor and has been with the show from the beginning express. 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Is he perversely things and I might be the perfect sponsor because I can't eat mushrooms any other way so since this show is a commercial enterprise. I'm going to continue to take the money but I now have an exit strategy. I've recorded an anti mushroom folk song warble to no particular keep they keep coming back show after show like a fungal infection be warned and very the afraid but if you are a health forward consumer who wants more mushrooms in your diet I will begrudgingly. Recommend the Golden Day with Turmeric and Shikaki. It's pretty darn good there. I I said it so. GO TO FORCE DOT COM slash portal to get fifteen percent off all manner of Fungal superfood beverages that's forcing medic dot com slash portal or use discount code portal portant RTA L. at checkout forcing medic dot com slash portal or the passion. Inside of the passion. Play a Anything that can truly excite the spirit can easily be weaponized So there's a way in which I guess I would expect. The dictators would be very the animated by by the theater in particular but I think mass opinion in general tends to neuter some of that desire for artistic creativity. So if if you look at passion plays around the world if you go see one say during Easter in Mexico they become something quite celebratory. it's for family and for friends and people get together. People drink people cook special dishes so which drained of so much of the actual passion story and it becomes among other things. It's less passionate. So it's hard to sustain the emotional violence behind the innovation of violence and that may be another one of our saving graces graces. And you see this with suicide bombers when they're removed from their environments where they've been indoctrinated it can be quite hard to get them to go through with what they've been told to do and sometimes you get them to go through with it by not even telling them they're going to die I've read some accounts. I'm not sure validated. This is that a lot of the nine eleven terrorists they didn't know that we're going to die. And maybe that beauity I mean presumably Everybody signs up with an an idea that martyrdom is part of the package potentially but they don't know that the play is going to be called for any particular Tuesday and the same was true for Rfid in World War Two or any other very high risk activity where you're pretty sure you're one of the good guys but you don't want to die so the fact that it's a lottery ticket of sorts in some ways that piques is your interest at motivates you. It gets your Adrenalin up. It probably improves your performance but at the same time it's absolutely terrifying and you know how. How much does that operate symmetrically on the good and bad moral sides of this equation? It's probably more similar than we would feel comfortable. Admitting now tile. I ran into an idea idea that I hadn't heard codified with in labeled with the phrase before Called strategic silence and I I read about this in writings things or speeches of Danah. Boyd Works with the data and Society Institute. The idea behind it is that if you have with predictable reliable news coverage it allows somebody who let's say wishes to undertake a terrorist action to know that they can count on you to amplify their message because they have the ability to create news. They are not just news takers but newsmakers in that realm. The news media has been experimenting with the idea that they will not do the bidding of the attacker by broadcasting things about motive about name Or about certain circumstances of the crime so at least ostensibly as not to amplify by the leverage of the attacker. Is that kind of a death now for confidence in reporting that if we report the facts straight straight we give people too much leverage over our news and if we don't report the facts then we quickly erode confidence in our system. I favor the experiment of of not reporting the names of say mass shooters. I'm not sure we're really withholding facts so the name of the person didn't mean anything to the audience in advance nance whether the person's name is John Smith or John Brown. It's say fact in some way but in another way it's not a fact at all whereas if it's a person person who is already known site back back then Osama bin Laden then you are withholding effect if you don't say Osama bin Laden had a role in nine eleven on on my worry with the policy of strategic silence is that destroyers will innovate in ways to recapture the attention. So if they don't report your name maybe you kill more people or maybe you innovate with a new method of killing people so you might be inducing innovation over the medium term and. I don't think we know yet as an experiment experiment. It does seem to me worth trying but I wouldn't be all too optimistic about it because as I say on my blog like Saul for the librium. And what's the equillibrium here. We don't quite know although with somebody like the unabomber Who left us a manifesto or let's say the Christ church shooter in the mosque? We have a fairly detailed account of what was going through the person's mind while they were committing their crimes. I don't know if that is what was going through their mind signed. It was what was going through their mind at some point in time. But was there actual set motivations I don't feel qualified to judge but I wouldn't just take take that for granted or taken quite literally but would you feel comfortable in suppressing the dissemination of such a document. I don't think it's possible to suppress that The way the Internet and other institutions have evolved. I wouldn't do it either But in any case it will get out there so if we decide it's not going to be on facebook As you well know there are other parts of the Internet where it just can't be taken an interesting place where I think I disagree with you. I don't disagree with you that we can't stop The document from being being on the Internet and it very determined person in their ability to find it. I do believe that there is a frictional coefficient that the search engines and the major platforms it forms can control if they So choose to slow down the flow of information and whether it gets rea- fide and discussed just inside of what I've termed the gated institutional narrative is a big deal because those news organizations react chiefly to each other and special social trusted institutions. And many of us still have the idea when we're listening to that conversation that it's an open conversation when if you're in a position like you or I may be were astounded by the number of things that simply can't be discussed in in in that echo chamber in in those corridors but I think the short term in the medium. Am termer quite different here. So facebook and youtube and Google all of a sudden decide. They won't cover some awful video. That will have real impact but I think say four or five five years later. There'll be some new set of tools. Maybe they're only used to find the really bad stuff But people will know their sites are methods where you can go see here experience agreeance all the really bad things and then it's still gets out so I'm not at all opposed to people say who run facebook deciding not to post something. I think it's fine. It's their website More power to them but at the same time we should not in for too much from the short run reaction because again solve for the equilibrium institutions institutions and searchers will adjust so you and I have a slightly different orientation bet that might be fun to play with it for a second. I think I've INCR- I used to hold a position when that these companies had the right to do what they want. And I've started to change my opinion on that based on the idea that if I define the public space Relative to private space I can find only private space on on the Internet. I I need to hire a company to allow me to get an on ramp in the form of an ISP and that in general Unlike a city with parks and Institutions of government. I really can't find any public space on the Internet. And so if the whole thing is private of it I feel like it's absolutely essential that we place much more restrictive Rules about what can and cannot be prohibited on the Internet because there is no public space from the GECKO my way and my way off the analogies of public and private space to the internet or net. I think are quite complex. I would just start with a very simple question. Who is that you would trust in politics to make those decisions better than what our current the Internet is giving us and for me? The answer is no one no party. No institution so I would like to keep things more or less the way they are now and have there's no liability for the Internet companies. Let them decide and The notion that Congress did you see the recent recent testimony of Mark Zuckerberg before Congress car little bit not much. It's remarkable how how little people in Washington understand about tech at any level. So so what explains this you when I spend a fair amount of time in Silicon Valley and it's not like the government couldn't get help from the world's smartest tech people and they can they do. The actual decisions are made by Congress and by President. But what explains the lousy level of questioning of tech people and you know both scientific equality voters right so people get the leaders. They deserve voters or poorly informed. Representatives wants to parade a certain display of toughness or strength in front of those voters. So they're deliberately rude to mark Zuckerberg they ask stupid questions which voters will let them get away with in my twitter feed some very stupidest questions. Were being applauded. Say by economists. Economists like Oh you know get tough you know. Show Mark Zuckerberg so even at that level. There's an expressive response. It encourages this behavior. And that's why we get it but when when you then think gee. This system is going to regulate speech on the Internet. I say no way you know. Zinger was right. I think that's different. You ever watched giraffes AFS fighting or bunnies. I've seen bunnies fighting on the Internet. Buddies righties amazing right. And it's like I think I got this from Joe Rogan bunny UFC Z.. Is just they fight and such an intense fashion. I think people are cheering Some of these hearings in the same way that they would cheer for like one rabbit over another cockfights. Just it's just interesting. Watching people beat up on each other particularly if you like one more than the other I don't. I don't think that people are anywhere near as stupid as I don't think we're getting the government we deserve an let me give you an analogy which is plaguing me Eh For many things we used to think that TV was the idiot box and we clearly just didn't understand long form television of the form that has been discovered with game of thrones or the Sopranos. I think that there's a long form politics that we want want. And were smart enough to know the difference between what we have in that and we can't get it because it's really not in the interests of people who have more leverage than the rest of us. I don't think it's the elites who are keeping this long foreign politics from us. I think it's the voters. There are plenty of candidates on the democratic side Some of them are quite smart You may or may not agree with them but we'll find quite smart on the democratic side. We won't talk about dumb Mayor Peter and Andrew Yang for instance are seem quite smart art. I'm not familiar with all the candidate. So if I haven't mentioned your favorite does intend no slight But they're obviously both quite smart. Their chance of winning is pretty small. Aw they have gotten media exposure I know Andrea is sometimes kept out of the CNN graphics. And so on but Burgess itself itself hysterically funny as if it's you know we're back in one thousand nine hundred four and no one will be able to discuss this because we don't have a lively Internet but the people who manipulate belaid emotions right arm more likely to be the Democratic candidates than those two individuals And that I don't blame on the elites I'm not saying the elites are blameless but mostly the voters do you know Frank Luntz well. I've met him and I've heard him talk. I wouldn't say I know. I think he's very smart. I think he's very smart to. I went to college college with them. And for those. Who Don't know his Republican pollster who pioneered the use of particular phraseology for common concept? Accept any more or less discovered that we don't actually have opinions about underlying law or facts. Were theory but we have huge lead divergent virgin opinions all based on how the same underlying stuff is presented to us that death taxes and An estate taxes may be the same thing but we oppose the death tax. And we're four the estate tax. Do you believe that. This level of emotional manipulation manipulation Would go away if we started getting tools with which to discuss it clearly that kind of emotional manipulation in is higher in some countries than in others. So it's impossible to lead to believe at some fixed eternal constant but the United States have has a long history of emotional and sometimes populist populist politics and the eighties nineties I view is an outlier kind of error with things were relatively calm and reasonable. Even though at the time it didn't always feel that way to meet all compared into the mid to late nineteen th century. My goodness right. Yeah then you have people in Congress attacking each other a lot of partisan media lot of outright lying so I don't don't see America becoming like Switzerland anytime soon but clearly. It's not impossible. Well I think one of the things that really strikes me about that is is that the waters and the Frank Luntz who Put a sort of a deliberate spin on this kind of mean spirited emotional manipulation were surprised that it didn't behave. Let's say like rugby where you have. A Bunch of gentlemen take field play absolutely brutally with each other and then going back going back to being gentlemen when the game is over Frank. Lund says told me that he just hates the current state state eight of our politics that it's far too mean spirited and destructive and he can't locate anything that he's done to kick this this This into high gear. It's it's a very strange thing. There's a disconnection between working on these campaigns in a somewhat scientific typic- fashion to use people's passions To sort of take over their decision making and then there's this inability to understand. Well how did we all become a UNCIVIL I wonder if one of the problems in America is our temporal distance from war so their World War Two terrible event but it did make us more instrumentally rational and if you look at something like the Manhattan project phenomenal achievement as you know done really quite quickly would not have been possible outside of wartime even in an earlier America. Then there's the Cold War now the Cold War let's say it ended nineteen thousand nine hundred ninety two. That's a number of decades young people today. Don't know about it so without a common enemy may be. The enemy becomes each other in some way and where more mean-spirited because there's a lack of a common enemy that's to me the most likely single hypothesis for what's happened and and it's evolutionary rational that when there isn't a common enemy you would attempt potentially to make your slice I larger at the expense of someone else's slice who might be on your team whereas during wartime that would be seen as sort of an unforgivable offense because as you have something much bigger to organize around and I think it's interesting the one issue where there is at least potentially a common enemy. Maybe not quite vivid yet but that would be China sure opinion on China. It's not polarized Republican versus Democrat. I've spoken to people in Congress on both sides about China is a mix of opinions diverse opinions within each party. It's not that all the Republicans line up on one side and all the progressive on another. So there you see polarization actually not being so strong wrong. I think China's done a wonderful job of manipulating us by making sure that most of their activities below threshold So it appears that they don't really have any global designs and of course there's a narrative that says China really cares only about China and it's not focused on the outside world returning sponsor lamps plus sent me a nice bedside lamp but it was so nice that my wife immediately stolen so I can't tell you their product works. That is unless they send me an additional unit hint. They also sent me an unusable lightbulb joke and a fun fact about Thomas Edison. So I'm going to instead use that as licensed to tell off color jokes and to get you much more excited about lighting than you've ever been end by turning you on to a world of great artists working in chandeliers that you might know nothing about our first genius. Is Luke Jerome. 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My view is China has very strong Asian designs. I'm not sure they have truly global designs signs But I view them as a threat to liberty in Asia. Sure now I guess I have a question Do you think we're living through a very unusual time in the last Lis- the last decade and really probably the last five to seven seven years. I'm not sure I would slice up the years that way so I now see the nineteen eighties and nineties as the unusual time of calm and feeling of triumph and that Neo liberalism can do wrong. And that's the outlier. The turning point for me is nine eleven and the financial crisis and now you have. Trump is a series of very strange events that are causing people to revise many things they had believed and where responding by being nasty to each other. So I see the cutoff point as two two thousand one. Do you see anything for example that to me I I view the Apparent death of Jeffrey Epstein Epstein One of the most bizarre news stories I've ever seen it seemingly happened. With every bizarre coincidence that would be necessary for somebody in protective custody To meet his end Under a situation in which everybody wants to know exactly who he was how he was connected to the intelligence communities where are his probable co-conspirators. They seem to still be alive. Nobody seems was to be tracking this down. The news media seems pressure naturally uninterested in it. And if you look at like top podcast. There are lots of podcasts. That are dedicated to the Jeffrey Epstein Question. Anybody could make money even debunking conspiracy theories about murders of Jeffrey Epstein by the intelligence community. What the Hell's going on? We're not even talking Emma I haven't followed the details of the Epstein death very closely but in general. It's very hard to get me to believe in conspiracy theories just looking at base rates. How many people kill themselves in prison versus how? Many people are killed by outside conspiracies in prison other than the case of someone who snitch is on the drug gang and their shift in the shower or that kind of thing which is pretty common So I'm not close to thinking that was a conspiracy I would say I have an open mind. Snow haven't studied it but I don't don't look at it in recoil and think my goodness. This is so strange though. I don't necessarily you don't have to believe in a conspiracy. You can believe that there are two camera failures than that. There's some guards that were sleep on the the job in a freakishly long period with nobody killing themselves in that facility happened to be ended because there's an arrival of an unpredictable event. What it is what I believe? Okay he's got a real right but my point to you would be If that's what I believed. And that is part of what I believe. But I have a probability distribution the puts far or more weight on other things than than I think your probability distribution does I would be interested to discuss that and to show people. Just how the conspiracy The conspiracy theorizing mind is led astray. It would be a wonderful opportunity for a rationalist to take this on on And to sell a bunch of papers by showing what nonsense. This is an even Michael Shurmur at some point But if the market for that so large People wanted to talk to prove he wasn't murdered. But my point is people wanted to talk about this much more than papers wanted like. Why not do a special on? What is known about Jeffrey Epstein Connections to the intelligence community just just that what is known not saying that he has huge connections the intelligence? But what do we know. I read about it in my blog comments all the time. I'm not sure how much chip it to trust But if I look back on history to me. It's remarkable. How few successful conspiracies there are? And there can be a lot of circumstantial evidence that something was a conspiracy talk of Pearl Harbor. JFK assassination many other cases don't quite materialize on Pearl Harbor Affect you. Most historians think it was a series of massive screw ups and there were clearly pieces of information put on tables and left around but there is no committee meteoric individuals such as FDR saying. I'm going to let this. I'm not saying that. I don't think anybody wanted Japan to attack that ferocity in Pearl Harbor but the question in of did we want Casas belie for World War Two and was probably an where we interested in potentially getting torpedoed in British shipping lanes or choking Japan which is resource poor for natural resources so as to induce them into some active belligerence hopefully much smaller than Pearl Harbor. But that's not a conspiracy right. It's that's a plan that went wrong but it would be. It would be a bit of a conspiracy to attempt to get Someone onto attack you so that you could enter the war claiming to have been attacked. I Dunno gain military strategy. Well if that's standing military strategy maybe this is is the reason why. You don't see as many conspiracies because that's just normal operating procedure I I'm always shocked. By how many relatively large and complicated conspiracies have been proven to have existed have not fallen apart and all the standard things that you can't get a large number of people to do something without somebody squealing wheeling that people have an urge to purge. Nobody keeps a secret. This has been to my mind clearly. Disproven just by proven conspiracy. So what's what is to you the most dramatic matic large-scale conspiracy and Co Intel pro has to be the best of them and what happened there that the F. B. I.. Had dirty tricks department that Actually Fed had misinformation To create fake news into the mainstream media with the intention of killing law-abiding Americans is because the FBI didn't like their politics. That's pretty bad. Look at a large number of people to. It's not what I see is a conspiracy. So we know for instance as a fact the CIA supported abstract expressionism within the field of painting yet. Because they thought it would neutralize propagandistic art and make America's less communistic. I don't don't think that's seriously disputed. I got into a much more interesting discussion with an economist. Not Too long ago. Who was looking at my work in economics WCHS and said Eric? The person said to me. Eric I can't stand to see you fighting the Chicago School of Economics do you. Are you aware aware that this was really just a bulwark against tally. -Tarian Communism rather than a theory that was intended to be operational and descriptive with predictive addictive power. And that now that the Cold War is over. the problem is. We didn't tell the children that it was really a political project rather than an analytic one. But I mean I know our new most of those people. They were economists. What they said they believed was true? They had careerist concerns are they wanted to make the world a better at our place. That's actually the best theory of the Chicago. School of Economics. Well I don't know I mean you know there's this very funny paradigm which I call. EARNS EARNS IS AN expense as a why and you know for example in physics I would say that Edward Witten has earned as a geometry. Uh but he's spent as a string theorist okay in economics I would say Milton. Friedman earned is an economist. who was a very fine Khan? And he spent as a Political theorist and that in part this game of earning in one place in spending somewhere else is depending upon upon H- how you view the history of subject it can be far more important to the participants how they spend rather than how they earn their credibility sure looked. Friedman read been made some mistakes so he thought that educational vouchers would work easily and simply and be quite popular. That hasn't turned out to be the case. He was is more optimistic about shock therapy than he should have been though I would say on the whole shock. Therapy has done well on average. Look at Poland. Trait Poland is a successful fairly free economy. But what explains that I think is just simply that Milton didn't see the future course of world history and he was imperfect and may be too optimistic about some if his own ideas and you'll hear all kinds of accounts about the Chicago the Chicago boys and conspiracy or the Habsburg monarchy you hear this from Lyndon Larouche okay the CIA funded them and she lay or whatever I don't feel those are the correct deep historical understandings the more or less superficial account. They had ideas they believed in the ideas. Some of the ideas were wrong. A lot of them turned out to be really quite correct. Their overall record is pretty good. That's superficial account. I think is fundamentally true. So now that we're we've somehow found the economics after burning through some other stuff that we would never out of economic unexpected. Please continue all right. Well that's the problem. Is that that you can never. It's like you can't leave evolutionary theory Can we talk and again let's Feel free to turn any question around on although I'm not an economist what I find astounding about the field of economics is the on the one hand. I can't get enough of it. I need to use. Its concept's it's terminology some of its models and on the other hand. I think I think it's an absolute abomination that has been not. It's not that the field is broken so much is that the field is fixed in the same sense that the world series can be fixed and I find that whenever I go into economics There's the sort of Martin Bailey type approach where there's this very defensible core Of Economic Fighting. And then there's this absolutely tortured Just so story that we tell that almost always seems to flatter institutions in power and And the structures that would be offended if we actually just let the field run and real Reach the conclusions that emerged from the models. It may depend on what exactly you're being upset by. But keep in mind at least in the West what you're calling institutions shins and power or the most successful institutions. The world has seen ever. So there's something to be said on their behalf right sure comics if are just so so stories are fairly positive toward those institutions. We shouldn't be repulsed by that. There may be margins where they're getting things wrong so I would say no economist. I missed that I know of is really willing to ride critique of the National Science Foundation. Why is that hard to prove? But I think the logical reasons are the obvious ones that want to alienated potential funder well the the only major critique written was written by myself with Alex Taboruk other than that. It's virtually illiterate. I I I've I've. I've accused the National Science Foundation of specifically destroying the pipeline for stem Labor For the purpose of making stem labor cheap for employers to the detriment of American spirits. Sure I read that but within economics it's very hard to find criticisms of the NSF. Virtually impossible okay. So here's an interesting question to me. Economists have been very comfortable turning the Lens of economic theorizing on absolutely any group save one. They'll do salaries they'll do it to scientists dentists to politicians. They cannot imagine. I mean that this is going to escape notice forever. My wife has talked about bet. Economics squared. What is the political economy of economists themselves? And where are these papers now. You don't find interesting particularly secularly that this field doesn't exist. I think they do it now on twitter so they accuse each other of having bad motives are being captive of their funders So with social social media you're seeing blossoming of this kind of attack There are still criticisms. I don't like being made so. There's the partisan criticism of people who disagree with you but to say criticize Chinese graduate students because they can't speak their mind about issues related to China because they fear for their own careers for their family members back in China that somehow not acceptable to raise even as an issue. So I do think they're a big blind spots but just like attacking. The other person is now pretty common typically typically done in a not very clever sophisticated way. Okay but we talked about making it cleverer and more sophisticated if you were going to turn the blends of economics in particular the analysis of political economy on the profession of economics. What would be the assuming that there's sort of a Paredo Rato curve here sheriff? For the first ten percent of my effort I should get something like seventy percent of the of the bang. What would be the first first thing to do? In economic theory using economic theory against economists themselves well he used the subjunctive. But I haven't factor in this. The biggest problem problem is people over specialize and right narrow defensible papers to be published that are invulnerable to peer criticism but down amount to very much and there's a massive waste human labor and people do not direct their energy energies toward actually solving problems and answering questions that to me is criticism number one. I think it's absolutely correct. It concerns me greatly A small number of people have voiced if that sort of a if I understood correctly and perhaps I didn't. That's a little bit of an opportunity. Opportunity cost that we could have done a lot more instead. We settled for something that wasn't or maybe those people should not be doing economics. They're talented people. They could just you now build bricks. Whatever true but if I think about what really moved the needle in medicine let's say The the whole concept of I- Atra genyk harm arm which is you know harm? Done by healers really focused us on the idea that certain hospitals kill more people than others. what about ECON agenda car. It depends at whom you point the finger but if you look at what is sometimes called The Washington consensus which is not a view. I completely agree with by any means. But it's called The Washington consensus for a reason. There's a recent paper by Bill. Easterly that goes through Went argues correctly. I think that on average the Washington consensus has done more good than harm so the idea that economic of some great scandal that we've gone around wrecking things uh-huh Binyamin Appelbaum argues this in his recent book. I liked that book. I think it's smart but I think it is more wrong than right. And it's overlooking the many cases where economic advice has done well. I mentioned Poland before but Czech Republic Slovakia you look at Sheila which has been democratic since nineteen ninety economic inequality and she lay has been falling for some period of time. The country is started from sky high rates and his fallen somewhat. It's in the middle. All of the Latin American distribution. But it's fallen and the country has the highest real wages in Latin America by some amount. It's not a miracle. It's not perfect. Economists gave if some bad advice there but overall did much more good than harm. See this is the thing that I I'm very confused by I understand. Let let let me just say that. I see that even though economists may do a lot of harm at prettified as doing pure good that that that's not the criticism that I would really level I at the profession. It's really something closer to academic mkx malpractice. Where the economists know the truth? The right way to set up the problem and choose not only not to do that in in public but to demonize to exclude to Black Ball. Anyone who would make the correct critique in other words it the right way to set up the problem we don't. We're too stupid not this. What's the problem we should be setting up? Let me give the the example that I perhaps no I. I know a small number of. WE'RE GONNA get to gauge theory. Now you want to well I make your point but at some point we need to get to gauge theory eerie. Because I need you to love me. I'll change I'll do the gauge. I'll do a gauge theory exam. But that's complicated. Do your other simpler point. Then we'll do gauge theory. Well I could do. The great moderation could do stem labor. And I could do. CPI These are things. I've engaged with if I did the. CPI One that's very clear. You have a small number of economists who in the mid nineties. He's became directed by Bob Packwood in Daniel Moynihan to find an overstatement of the CPI because tax brackets. Were indexed right and entitlement benefits Social Security Medicare where indexed and. So what they found is if you could knock down on the measurement of the CPI you could raise taxes and slash benefits and they backed out that one point one percent then overstatement if corrected would lead to a trillion dollar savings over ten years and they actually broke into two groups to come up with two separate numbers that would add together to one point one which to me is academic malpractice. That is they started with the target. And this is according to one of their own own members of this Boskin Commission Professor Gordon who talked about the fact that somehow the two groups came up with the two numbers. which would add it together? Gave Dale Jorgenson a Harvard. Professor of economics is one point. One percent overstatement And that's what they went with now to me. That's like saying thing. We need to find an error and all the temperature gauges so that we can come up with different targets because global warming is a problem. You're not allowed to touch. The temperature. Gauges for God's Sakes for sure as in so many numbers. There's an error of exaggerated exactness. But if you look say at Google's price index it's not so different from how we calculate the CPI if you look at how central banks or other economic authorities around the world calculate their CPI's. It's not that at different than what we have done. And you could say it's all one big overly carling conspiracy but I don't see that the current way of calculating the CPI is off by very much and if it's off it still may be overstating inflation a wee bit because there are perhaps more free goods today through the Internet than we hadn't that's out that's that's not a legitimate counterargument. What I'm trying to say? Is that assume that in fact there is the best. CPI assume that it was one point one percent overstated. It's still not legitimate to go into a quiet room in closed commission and say here's the target boys we have to find this number. Let's break into groups and put together that number so that are finding will raise taxes and slash benefits. You're not allowed to break the gauge to get the policy. The gauges the gauge politics is ugly system but it does seem they gave us a measure of the CPI somewhat better than what we had had. If you think that inflation has actually been much higher you must think real rates of return. Today are astonishingly. Lau I mean that will truly make you a mega pessimist which perhaps you are but keep in mind. People compare our measurements of rates inflation to other economic variables. And see the whole picture makes sense and if you think the true rate is very different from what we have that implies some very radical conclusions which I don't want to dismiss out of hand but I'll just say there are multiple tracks on this process. Do they fit in with other. I think we're in two different layers of the discussion. which is fascinating to me? One layer the discussion is did they point out some good things about ways in which the CPI could be done better they did and did they do some work they absolutely did. Did they commit academic malpractice absolutely motherfucking. Yes they committed academic academic malpractice. It's not in the same layer of the stack tyler to me is your objection just the process. So I don't doubt bad. Things went on in those rooms. I don't know I wasn't there Well they destroyed my wife's career over. It is my opinion. They went into something called the Harvard jobs market meeting which is a closed door session during the time that the Boskin commission was active and she was talking about Two of the things that you can do to try to adjust the CPI to make it more accurate one is to replace. What's called Mechanical Index? That is something that prices. Let's say a basket of goods In two different different time periods famous examples being the posh unless payers index That you can either replace that with a human standard which is like cost of living. What is the cost? Make you equally happy between two points in time or you can do something. Called chaining and chaining meaning given that. Your blog is called marginal revolution. Marginal Revolution was originally the introduction of the differential calculus into economic theory and this is In the limit an application of differential calculus and the fact is that these two things have never played well together because you can't chain tastes In economic theory you have this doctrine that says that tastes have to be treated as if they were unchanging and what we did in collaborative work was to bring in gauge theory. As you were stating to make sure for the first time you had dynamic agents who were allowed to change their tastes as humans is do and still stay within. The folds of what's known as ordinal utility theory. I would say this. Most people would admit an indeed emphasized that over a time period of of multiple decades. The comparisons just don't work and cannot work through various impossibility theorems for aggregating price indices over time. So if you ask what would you rather have me like the Ragnar Frisch Right. Would you rather have fifty thousand dollars to spend in the sears roebuck catalog. Today or one thousand nine hundred Most people would would rather spend it in the catalog of today that suggests there's actually been radical deflation but I don't think that's exactly the correct conclusion. I think the correct conclusion is over very long periods of time. The comparability goes away in transit authority enters into the calculation. And you just need to be very careful and modest as to what you know and don't know actually there's an entirely different possibilities what we're discussing for those of you at home. We WanNA play along one of the things that's weird about. This podcast is that I'm very willing to throw out pointers winters rather than too dumb things down to the point that nothing ever happens on the podcast. So there was a guy named Irving Fisher who you can look up. Who came up with lots of axioms to to find the perfect price index and then Ragnar Frisch came up with an impossibility theorem. That said if you took on Fishers axioms him. There was provable. No measure could satisfy. All of the accident was impossible curry. Now let me ask you about gauge theory before you tell us what it is. Give us the bottom line. You know money shot. Let's say gauge theory is correct is the actual rate of inflation higher or lower than what we're measuring it's that you're measuring the wrong object. There's something that you would create which you might so if we previously use these mechanical posh Josh and less pairs Indis indices those are replaced by something called the conus index. Now conus comes in two flavors but it's a cost of living Which prices utility pleasure I get from items Rather than the cost of the item so if wine and beer are the same aim price per liter and I'm different between them right and there's a frost that kills off a bunch of grapes. If you pay me the money to Rebuy my original basket I'm GonNa take the money honey. I'M GONNA buy a mess beer because winds become too expensive. I'm GONNA spend the extra money on something else right. So if you want to get rid of that effect you moved to this thing called the conus index and you adjust for quality quality better. But that's hard to do this a lot of people. Well there's a lot of labor to sticks who tried to do this right so highly imperfect the Internet makes it harder. But that's not that's not where gauge theory really comes in the really exciting thing about gauge theory in economics. And there's nobody I'd rather discuss with than than tyler Is that economics should be the most interesting of subjects analytically and intellectually because it is the only place that I'm familiar with. Man's to greatest greatest ideas coming into direct contact the theory of selection both sexual and natural that governs us as apes which we don't use very much but continue agree. It's a great idea idea. I think if you allow a reinterpretation in which Let's say utility maps to fitness and Indifference since Maps to drift. I think you'll find that you're using it everywhere. In fact what economics does is to give you a second layer Using the fact that money uniform is is a lot of things to allow an as if physics to arise as in the work of Paul Samuelson and so the weird thing thing is that you've got apes engaging in markets which is really just selection by other by other means Using an as if physics as the the language of interaction see I would say the best idea of economics is the demand curve slope downwards price goes up people do less of something. A selection Shen is an incredibly important idea. We've done a bad job of incorporating it No slight meant to the idea. This a lot of pieces on selection in economics but they tend to to be big sprawling messes rather than useful and most of the best economics pieces are based on pretty simple applications of the law of demand our income effects but to get back to gauge theory. Let's say everything you're saying is true is the actual real rate of return higher or lower than I used to think it is. That's what I want to know. Should I be more optimistic. Or more your pessimism. I guess is you probably more pessimistic but the the number of different things that would change you see. There's a concept. Let's say in computer programming about how something is cast. If I have the number three I can either treat. Three is a symbol in which case it's a string can treat it as an integer which case I'd call it in I n.. T. or I could treat it as float three point zero zero zero and however much accuracy that the computers willing to maintain the question of what is let's say a representative consumer is not properly understood in my opinion. Either that the the problem is the representative consumer should be field. Something like a temperature field or field of Wind measurements on the space of all possible consumers. Now now you and I will explore. Hopefully this podcast something about our difference in taste in music. I don't even know what it is. But we'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA find out it. It is the case that if you were doing inflation properly you would be using gauge theory and you would be using field theoretic concepts for representative agents. You wouldn't be making these point point like you would never say. What's the temperature today in America? Because it's it's it's you've cast temperature which should be field displayed on a map APP as if it was a single number like afloat okay but again. Let's say you're right. What's the actionable trade? Based on this information I mean you probably are already rich but you should be truly truly rich right. Because there'll be an actionable trade if we're miscalculating rail rates of return. Why are you even if the proper estimated fire than we realize there'll be some kind of options play on that and overtime was systematically make money? I mean I think that my my reluctance is is that it's not really sharp question. You have all sorts of questions. Like Donna adjustments. which is you know the car that I call a Mustang today isn't like the car that call Mustang from thirty years ago so I may have to look at how much luxury trunk space fuel? Efficiency that series of the different objects had an as as as changed qualitatively There's a question about. Why does economics focus so much on Paredo improvement and as a gold standard? Where if you all get rich by an additional billion dollars and I get rich by thirty five cents? I'm supposed to say that I'm improved. Moved any sensible human being looking at things like mate selection or Scarce vacation property will know that. I'm much worse off I. I agree with that. But that's a separate question but there's so many of those things. I don't know how to answer your question in other words the field but you should be short intangible capital if you think true real real rates of return are lower than other people realize now maybe tangible capital you can measure exactly how valuable the factory is but intangible capital which is hard to value you. You should be more pessimistic about so there's a bunch of firms with a lot of intangible capital you could short those if you want to be hedged the market as a whole you could be long or otherwise protect protect yourself against other developments by having some other long except it's also the case that some of us who have attempted to form these kind of broad theses I can tell you that I didn't Really appreciate what was going to happen. between The collapse of bear stearns is and I several months after. Aig was about to share a hard basically. No one did even people who saw some parts of the crash early on did not have good day by day predictions of how would all involve well and the issue of the Interceding in the markets you know with a very visible oh hand To engage in pure acts of political economy To you know both stabilize the the economic system but also to defend Very vulnerable institutional players. I no longer know how to make those kinds of trades. Because I don't believe that I know what we can undo artificially in the face of crisis but if real rates of return are truly lower than is believed the system cannot deny that either there forever or even for that low. That's claiming that we're just keep on buying puts on the appropriate stocks. Don't do it with leverage. Just toss money into those trades. Forget about them. Do do it for thirty years. You're a young man. Maybe you're doing it right. I'm not expecting you to tell the audience your financial position. I'm saying a way of testing this view. It's not that hard hard Most people in the hedge fund world are not doing this right and they think very closely. I do believe that we are about a fifty year. Bubble I I mean so one of the things that that that unites us as I was thrilled that you were also focused on the early nineteen seventies as a real and and mysterious discontinuity With respect to growth and and it's one of the biggest bubbles so nineteen seventy-three comes a lot out of indicators crash you can say fine. The higher price of oil that's great but the higher price of oil goes away and those indicators. Do not come back very well. What do you think okay first of all? It's just do this slowly sure. Is it mysterious. That more people aren't focused on what happens around. Nineteen seventy two seventy seventy four. Of course ten percent of the profession should be working on that instead. People are doing these little narrow things to publish. But it's hard to get a clear answer to the question. Were discussing so no one one can publish on it. Referees will shoot down whatever you turn in. I would rather see people just ride in speculate on the more important questions but if you ask what do I think happened clearly. Oil was a major factor. Low let me give you just a little bit of your do. You can't do but I can. I think my favorite version of the graph that shows how violent this change was Is something that you focused us on. It's not perfect but it's measured. GDP EP whatever the failures we have measure together with measured male median income. Yes and those two things are going up in lockstep up before nineteen seventy three or so and then one of them flat lines and the other keeps going up. Is that graph something that you developed. Galloped I presented it. Obviously the numbers come from other people. I've done a lot to draw attention to it but I don't pretend it's original with me. Well I think it's it was a great observation that graph was so clean that It caused people to stop denying that something happened and then they almost almost immediately in my experience and correct me. If yours is different they go from not believing that something really big happened to immediately telling you exactly what it was was that happened. That explains it and the rich people stole it all or something or it's all about Bretton Woods or it's all just about oil shock but I think the missing variable once you get through oil prices overregulation A number of factors that people have already discussed but I think the increasing feminisation of society is a missing factor in this equation. That norms of changed women as a hall or more risk averse Were much less likely to fight a the war in a more feminist society so in my opinion this is very likely good on net But change is harder to accomplish in some ways and People are more comfortable with higher levels of regulation and that's how things are just pluses and minuses but it will slow down measured economic growth net. Can we talk doc about To use your term a feminist economy Without the public in the public sphere without having to celebrate everything that has feminizing and demonize everything that was lost. Well it depends who the we is. Okay I do think one should consider costs and benefits and to a large extent. Man have accepted a more feminist society because it has very strong positives ositive so I completely sincere when I say on net. I think it's a good thing. So give those the experimental evidence and portfolio evidence. Women are more risk averse And as a norm my guess is not proven but my speculation is that really matters and it is edition two other factors about productivity in in regulation and spending more and fighting pollution and oil prices and so on which are at this point more or less well known and that's why I think the slowdown has mostly sleep persisted. And I do think you'll have extraordinary. Periods like nineteen ninety five to one thousand nine hundred eighty eight. When information technology to so many good things it overwhelms realms the negatives? I think we'll have more of those. So let's assume for the moment that both feminization of some kind has occurred. And let's also Just stipulate for this purpose it's also net positive right up until the present. Let's imagine that going forward far fewer women choose or able to form MM families and become mothers. How does that change the equation? Potentially could that tip this increased level of feminization negative well could even even now forgetting about the speculation. It's a significant gain for elite men and quite possibly a negative for non elite men. And you see that in the data very clearly early due to marriage correct so marriage as an incentive is much weaker for some subclass of men who seemed to be fairly numerous religiosity seems to be down and Total fertility is down. It's now I believe at about one point eight. It used to be a two point two and if you look at social indicators for a lot of men in the lower middle class incomer educational category you see massive problems and that's part of the story. What consorts of economic behavior do you see Change with Let's say lower we're status males Really taking the brunt of some of the shocks to to our modern economy. Well marriage is good. Good for man on Net It feminism for one thing Suit greater health lowered depression correct less drug abuse Suicide rates is lower. And so on. And we're seeing those variables for significant numbers of men move in the wrong directions median income as you noted as I presented that has been and stagnant for the media and mail order. I think those numbers are are across a long enough period of time. They're unreliable in some ways but that there is a problem is completely -pletely indisputable to say. Oh it's gone up exactly. So much between nineteen seventy and today that is an illusion but that it is a problem and indeed a crisis That is very very much a reality and you see it again in many other indicators not just the income numbers that's how we know it's real what have women potentially lost from increased the feminine even if it's net positive for them as well again women is quite a large category toes men Would you want to break it up into low. Status high status females looking at some of the issues about how high status females use low status females To you perform kin work that would otherwise have to be done I would say that if there's evidence that stress levels for a fair number of women are higher if you think women now have the chance to have better careers which is great for the economy and Very good for the person working. If you're in a career you enjoy but at the same time it may be hard to convince the men they should take on a greater share of child rearing responsibilities so the woman ends up having to do both and and the income level is higher but the stress level is much higher. And I think there's both scientific evidence and anecdotal evidence that is true. I couldn't tell you off hand. How a large class of women that is but I do know it's been studied pretty extensively? Why do you think it's so difficult to discuss? costs and benefits And even the facts of gender within economic theory without it becoming so contentious as to effectively make the price somewhat profitable well. It's hard to discuss in many settings. Not just an economics. I think actually economics is one one of the better settings to be able to have such discussions There are two areas in academia where you can still say things that are either counter intuitive or possibly politically incorrect and that's economics philosophy and both are healthier for it so to me theory. I know that area less well May May Welby. I would say that. That's probably my I mean. It's under a ton of pressure now. Don't get me wrong but I do think that. If view allow political correctness into dilution theory there is no subject probably true again. I couldn't say economics is under some pressure. Now but it's so data driven that Results get out right. They may be reframed particular ways or certain angles of it talk lockdown or putting any thoughts about the wage gap well which one between men and women. Let's take that. If you adjust demographics it mostly goes away. I do think there. There's also discrimination against women in labor markets but I don't think you measured by the wage gap. That's that's one of my problems. I've gone so far. As to claim that academic tenure here is increasingly withheld because a large number of females find child rearing so fulfilling that competes even if they're at the very top of of their profession as researchers and so by forcing people both men and women to wait longer and longer for a permanent job offer for What you do is you start selecting out against A very talented Usually female assistant professor who may discover the joys of raising three kids and we'll have a fifteen year period of decreased productivity. I've argued we should abolish tenure to be more fair to women. There are other reasons but that'll somewhat lynn. It'd be absolutely the frustration. Being that those of us who who think of ourselves as concerned earned with actual discrimination against women in the labor force may not want to sign on to the you know women get paid seventy five cents for every dollar that a man gets paid because that's that's not a good argument and the elite man who benefit from ten year. They'll just call it meritocracy and somehow compartmentalize not see how it's an unfair system. But another thing I would. I'd say that I would really want to stress. There's a lot of kind of tough talk on the right wing about. Oh the claims of women discrimination are overblown or incorrect. And so on and I get where they're coming from the discrimination against women in markets. It's very real. It's very significant and our main self image of ourselves selves should be as problem solvers. Who Will Reduce that discrimination and take on some kind of emancipatory perspective to do that? I think you have to be objective about the evidence but the goal is not at the end of it all to dismiss it or the Democrats are wrong or the left wing is terrible. It's really the wrong coach. Focus on the individuals is a big problem. Tell the people come at it from a different perspective. I say come at it from greed. If you imagine the number of insights that are held between female ears and and putting up extra barriers within the workplace means that we have less. We have fewer minds that we can query It definitely seems seems to me. The case that given differential success rates if you believe in anything like intellectual equality there should be a bonanza to be unlocked From having women highly productive in the workplace to me to me greed rather than obligation seems to me to be the right strategy. Not everybody loves that approach Yes but there is a collective action problem so even if you as an individual say employer are greedy there may be social norms. That make it hard for you to benefit from your insights sites. Yeah because the other people in your workplace customers may have screwed up expectations and norms. And you can't just wave a magic wand and kind of see through all the midst of gender and hire the right people and automatically succeed. There's some educational issue collective action problem. Where large numbers of US need to understand what's going on better and see which are the actual discriminations which I think are often matters of expectations and role models and implicit bias? Sees which can be very strong. Will you ask the engaged theory earlier. When we ran into trouble trying to introduce gauge theory into the core of economics? It was going to have a very unpredictable effect because is it was going to be a backwards incompatible as sorry backwards compatible upgrade of the entire theory with making compatible edible also with the world's most beautiful mathematics found in particle theory. General relativity in differential apology What I found was that there their economics set up for it to be a battle and that my wife and collaborator did not want the fight? I I was just ready to you. Know to Duke it out with these guys for the pure play pleasure of shoving it down their throats and extremely sort of male aggressive aggressive Perspective on innovation and because it was under her name given it was her thesis We would collaborated rated on part of it. There was no ability to actually have that fights of the. The norms of the profession favored conflict as as a means of exploring something and that because women may have different feelings about how conflicts should be handled. I worry that. Like in this instance where you know you had somebody from from developing world WHO's female Presenting presenting a new idea that such ideas can get lost very easily if we don't have a more balanced workplace. There's a lot of self examination. Sam Nation going on in economics right now about conflictual norms and have seminars are held but I worry a bit will address the superficial aspects and be superficially saliva concern concern and not change actually being rivalries in the way that is screwed up. We'll see how would evolve. This is a new movement But so far I'm not yet optimistic dictate will get at the actual problem. You aren't well. We'll see in all fairness the people who raise it are completely correct raised. I'm on their side But at the same time. We can't be naive. You've gotta realize problems are deeply rooted and to just focus on the superficial symbols of the problem. Tom You can end up Not Fixing things so we we've referred to this podcast audio and video som- dot that effectively. This is pirate radio for a a new generation. You were famous within economics for a couple of moves. That seem really nutty to me. And I think The first one is that you turned down. Harvard to go to George Mason as an undergraduate. Because you thought you could spend more time time reading the Great. The great works of Economics is do. I have my facts more or less right. I didn't apply to Harvard. I had a very strong academic record. Oh this was back in the late nineteen seventies. I'm believe I could have gotten into many top schools but only applied to George Mason in fact okay so My High School Guidance Counselor thought I was crazy I had. Sat's Ta Santa and so on good grades but for me. This was the version of home. Homeschooling I was choosing homeschooling and most of all I hated the idea of living in a dorm. I consider that so barbaric that is seventeen year old. I thought I want a life. I WANNA in a car. I want an apartment. George Mason was a commuter school. It had an interesting economics department but most of all I wanted my personal space and ability for classes asks not to be too hard or too much homework and I would just work on my own like every day all day long morning through night and I did. It was a great decision. Well it's not for me to say I don't regret it at all very happy. I did it but you know. Great by what standard it could be a lot of decisions you make ex-post you're glad turned out to be you and you'll endorse them. But that's not quite as informative as actually seeing the trade off okay but then you you went to Harvard for Grad school correct and it was necessary. Sorry for me to get a job right. And they'd research job and then you came back to George Mason after a stint at UC Irvine. That's correct okay. And he start. Ah Choosing to blog. Yes that's correct that was I think two thousand three though my memory could be off by this puts you in a Group with people like Peter White and physics who are starting to really upset standard academicians if I recall correctly because the power of this blog to up end what had been thought to be the Mary. Tyler Chrissy if you have somebody who can think and write very clearly an in a lively fashion. Suddenly they're able to have a different kind of influence than you. Eight have through a journal like econometric or something like that. But I'm not sure I upset people at first. It was not taken seriously so no one was upset and then it was very quick all of a sudden that it was taken very seriously and then people decided they needed to suck up to me or to the blood and there is not much of an intermediate period or I thought some kind of war it goes opposition. Understand that so in general the the power of this blog once it was realised caused people to Want to get along with you. People are very nice to me as I think they should be but they're no not always nice to each other. They're nicer to me than they are to each other And that game suddenly and before that happened they just ignored me. There was never much stability that I'm aware of what I tried fighting. You want a couple of points but I was very ineffectual so I can see that you're I don't really likeable. I don't feel I'm one of these people who had to fight off this incredible couple opposition and persevered and they told me this and I stuck with it. That doesn't ring so true to me. It was like I did my own thing world by who knows they weren't in paying attention and then somehow magically at worked out and what do you think the current status of economics blogging. I mean I just I most to the blogs have faded and if died. Who still in the that's worth reading? It depends what you count as a blog but ECON log with Bryan Caplan. Scott summoner and other people is Great. Uh Scott Sumner Zone. Blog is very good arnold. Kling ask blog. It's called Paul. Krugman is not really blogging anymore. the debates happen on twitter which I think is a less effective medium but obviously it's quicker and in that sense quote unquote cheaper and Obviously facebook twitter and other social media have beaten out blogging. It's been great for my efforts. We've played a kind of last man standing strategy and done very well with it so I'm not worried about the death breath of blogging. My view is like bring it on. You know there's the death of Tyler Cowen that way but until then you know blog will continue. Just ask the question. In how many websites can you go to every day where this reliably interesting. Content to New York Times is Financial Times. There's a bunch of others will do that the comment section action of marginal revolutions. Your blog is a large draw. I don't know I think it's pretty terrible. I hope it's not a large draw but since it has a lot of comments it must draw someone. It does seem to draw a lot of interest where people really want to mix it up there. You provide context for the post so I shut down the comments section for like ten days just as an an experiment. Yeah and all these people wrote me. They're like we know. The comments were terrible but they gave us context on your post. Because you would say things we wouldn't understand and we'd read the comments so now we know what's at stake so now. I think those people are doing something pretty valuable even though like the actual quality of said is highly. Variable to be generous. Do you have the sense that we're part of a weird movement Of I don't know how to call it like thinkers thinkers who aren't much recognized by the standard structures strategies diet. You aren't like you're you're like Patrick. Collison for example. Somebody who a lot of our world that I share with you holds very high. We hold him in very high esteem. MM-HMM I don't know how many people in the country think of Patrick as a mind rather than as a very rich CEO. Patrick is one of the smartest people ever But I think a whole bunch of people know that now. Yeah and Do you think that he's being tasked by our government to. I really think through difficult problems technology I would. I would ask him an art be. Well I don't know What our government has in mind by? I want to get back to this. The idea like who are the structures so marginal revolution. It's a blog but I don't view it as just about me. I view myself as editing. A daily magazine for economists and other smart people right and like it's the daily magazine for economists and related kinds of thinkers. So I don't view it as like an outside thing anymore I know it has this funny weird early years of blogging look like a nineteen ninety s website. That's like a retro inside joke. So cool I like it. Yeah and I don't don't even know how to make it better without it looking kinda stupid and gross but Mike I'm the establishment. The only part of it okay. So you're gonNA pretend to be. I see the establishment. You can attack me now. Who are the best? Heterodox thinkers that live. Sort of. On the periphery of the consciousness. I I don't know what to get the term. I'm serious you absolutely. I wrote a blog post about you and I said he defended more this podcast. I didn't just defend defend you. I said Eric Weinstein is one of the most interesting people to sit down and have an extended intensive conversation with this is why it's so hard to fight with you. You couldn't be kinder but I I'm trying to think about WHO's signal we can boost at the moment like. I think you remember. We went to that meeting on how to think about about Measuring in and Reforming Science for Higher Productivity Laura Deming for example. Blew me away. I thought she had some great. She had some of the best best insights I I. I don't know how to boost her signal enough. She's she's somebody like Patrick That I want more people thinking about. We have a mutual friend Who is incredibly genitive in very dangerous? Michael vassar intellectually. I'm never sure what's up with Michael. I've spent time with him and been very impressed but I don't know what he's doing. Yeah you enlighten me. No tiene right or what. No no no I can tell you that. He's theorizing about woke as a concept. He's much more for it without buying in its own terms. That sounds like me. But what are his intermediate products Don't know I mean just there. Are these people who many of us talk to over the years our ran. You must know who grant is no you don't know grand- just GW E. R. N.. Just Google to grand. He is a man is he. Like the Daniel Schmuck Burger of our time Dennis rock number but the will the way you put the question. Yeah so grand lives in southern Maryland. Okay and just like lives and he writes these essays saves on the Internet and he collect information. He's a phenomenal guy. A very friendly. If you meet him seems Super Nice. I don't know him well but I've only positive things to say about my the interaction with him and his essays will blow your mind. Yes Scott Alexander but this is okay so slate star Codex there's no longer heterodox redux or Orthodox anymore ideas come from the Internet either. Everyone likes that or not. Okay for the last ten fifteen years and the people we're all discussing are in various ways significant players on the Internet and of course it's diverse. But they're not like quite the outsiders anymore either you oh really really. I don't know that I can get my ideas inside of the institution. My claim is that when the heterodox thinkers are finally invited back in in like I think that you want to be invited council on Foreign Relations they would bore the the hell out of you. Not The way I'd do it I don't know I mean I'm sure they're fine. They I have a lot of smart people. I know a lot of people are like very much. I enjoyed talking with them. I've never visited the place. Okay but as an institution. Yeah I don't think of them as changing anyone's mind on anything anything. Yeah and I don't mind no but that's part of what I think about like the National Academy of Sciences. I went for a meeting at the National Academy. And it's very clear that they weren't used to really heterodox ideas of certain level Anything like the volume that we had them and the the problem that I have this thing called the disc the distributed idea suppression complex. Yeah and it has to do in this has to do with our mutual friend. Peter Thiel Who has a related bizarre version of a common idea that we've talked a lot about his version? Is that the stagnation nation that he and I knew. I think all discussed is actually functional. That it's really important to retard the spread of great ideas because because in some sense they may be so destabilizing to a fragile world fascinating idea. It's a fascinating idea. I'm Peter I would say would be one of the smartest people and and again too often. He's referred to as of like maybe yeah he's really quite good as an original creative generative thinker and as a judge of talent which are two related but separate things with. Peter could be the smartest person that I now. Well in part to to make that argument what I would say is that Peter does a better job figuring out who the generative heterodox thinkers are your objection. not withstanding to the term heterodox. And then would he realizes very often is is that they don't know the the best way of putting forward their ideas. He's he's also got another idea. That academicians don't understand which I call Maximally compressed minimally distorted where he takes some idea and he's willing to give up a tiny amount of accuracy to make it extremely compact so that when unpacked it tells you a ton and because academicians over-focus on special cases Very often runs the table where somebody will object to the idea that his principal isn't exactly accurate but it's thematically so accurate that the heuristic is just overwhelming power and of course he's used to enrich himself quite considerably. Patrick Collison may be the quickest learner. But I would say this Eric Joy your triumph so we live in this funny in between world where the old structures are all still there and we both have had the first half or so of our lives in only the old structures second half of our lives in the world of the Internet. We're the only generation that will be able to say I am so beautiful point. It's beautiful but when the old structures fade away and you have more and more people who just grew up with the Internet like you are the mainstream and the council on foreign horned relations is like the heterodox thinkers who don't have much influence and I'm half teasing you but in fact I mostly correct and you just don't see it yet because these kind of status status hangover is still thick oak desk. Whatever we want that it's not that at all? It has to do with the fact that I've been in both worlds. You know I've been. I've been at Harvard. MIT in Oxford. And I've also been shit out of luck and the oscillation between being being in good graces and outside of the good graces As impressed me a great deal I think more than that. It has with you. Because you've just charted heterodox PAF Jeff. I've never been out of the good graces. Yeah I've just been ignored at times. I've never felt like the stress or the failure. Well okay I guess in terms of opportunity entity costs A lot of view as one of the most insightful An encyclopedic minds out there. An unbelievable job of sifting for for us. And you're unbelieveable exposure and we would we would naturally see you as at the very highest echelons and I think that view you is now Much much more widespread than it was fifteen years ago right. I mean you've become time is treated you pretty well. It's gone well for me. Yeah like if I'm just out in the world and I don't like go out to places much. Yeah once a week someone will recognize me or like more than once a day. Someone will write me like express. Let's go clubbing on sunset. Strip people you're gonNA recognize you all. I'm sure that's the point. I've had a lot of good fortune. I would say so. Let's talk about something. You're talking about being seventeen Eh Addict choosing to go to a commuter school you playing guitar back then. I think I started when I was eleven or twelve. Yeah I quit like around the time. I was seventeen because I went to college. And your musicianship Informed you in terms of what the structure of Music Zik really is at its deepest level of strong opinions about Music and culture. I was always terrible on guitar. I wanted to learn different fields of music and I thought to do that. You need to play something understand basics of music music theory cords. Whatever so? I did a bit like classical jazz blues every different and kind of guitar just a bit to have an entry point into the world of music it was never a player impress people right ever played for people and was never good but I could play okay the notes of a song to see how it fit together okay. There is a kind of relativism that has descended over musical taste. Where every time I say as something is better than something else I run into somebody instantaneously telling me I've committed like I? I get a traffic citation. That you can't say You know that that box is much more important or better than SCARLATTI. And I just don't understand this complete abdication of any role in which you know informed judgment Plays a role that we have to have issues of tastes that the say this is better than that. And then you're allowed to take a you're allowed to take a heterodox position on that Eh. But we should be passing along our tastes in our prejudice and exposing it to discussion with other people rather than just finding relativists. Mush Roy and I think the relativists often don't mean it what they're really saying is on objective grounds like challenge the status of the person making this proclamation and I will challenge the status by not accepting the judgment. But they're not actually claiming that all doors and they used to relativistic. I don't think of post modern relativism or these booking and the way Jordan Peterson says I've never bought that argument and Peterson's exchange with Zeke and their debate. I thought Peterson lost that part. The debate Most people are objective. ISTS whether they admit it or not. Let's just say what we think is correct and debate it and David Hume in the mid Eighteenth Century Torri wrote some wonderful essays on standards of taste in the test of time I think he was essentially correct. That matters of the aesthetics are not objective active in the same way that matters of fact are that you can measure and confirm them but nonetheless there is something about the judgments that informed people make that expresses an interest subjective validity and it can be debated and judged and it's one of the things we here on earth to do so tight wonderful music. What moves what moves your soul in music well start with classical music my completely orthodox so Bach Mozart? Beethoven Brahms I'm quite fond of contemporary classical music or mid twentieth century. Anybody who isn't in the acknowledged highest highest echelon. I don't think so. I think my tastes are so remarkably close to what you would call the cannon in these particular areas that they're boring Do Do you think I find a lot of music before Bach may be somewhat overrated. So Palestina is an important composer. When I listen to it I just don't enjoy it as much as I the post to defect Yom D'Amato it's fine? I don't know just Ken to pray I like it. I don't love it. Anything from that period period. Okay is fine in a slightly under impressed manner. Do you think I think with Monteverdi. And then Bach things explode and become marvelous and amazing. Even temperament is really the the central Is that Ground Zero for for the specific beauty of Western music. I think it saw development of instruments through capitalism and markets and growth of the middle class and having more people experiment playing and composing posing. Pianos become much. Better string instruments become much battery of the Modern Orchestra you have actual audiences and the interplay of those forces as supposed to music. Being more in the church may be closer to pure vocal music. I just think it's much better and almost everyone in their heart knows that. Yeah Uh yeah that tell me the no no no. I'm I'm actually. I'm processing in real time excites you and classical music. I think Haydn's under somewhat underrated closer to Mozart Mozart than people want to admit. Yeah durable Gosh I mean I guess. I- Mozart is amazing peaks but a significant portion of what Mozart road is boring. Younger works are mostly boring. I I often feel that I must have a hole in my soul because of the amount of Mozart. That doesn't is land that I hear all of these people describing Mozart is this you know exact- exactly perfect balance. And there's something about the language that I find Somewhat repellent so that. I'm less likely to get along with people who are bananas over over Mozart. If somebody's nobody's very clear about Bah like boxes like heroin. It's an addiction. You can't just can't get enough of the stuff. I relate to that much more often. Say that there are mathematicians nations who will claim that Bach isn't their favorite composer. And I never believe them. But you know take Mozart symphonies which are obviously chronological twenty-nine is quite good. And then not until you know maybe thirty six you could say thirty three thirty four but before twenty nine. They're just boring if they were somehow all gone. I don't think there'd be any great loss so most of Mozart that good. I don't think it detracts from him but even with boxers extreme selection in which Baku hear. You don't hear most of the todd is very much most of them are boring. Yeah that was the main thing he created. So there's some of that in johann-sebastian as well exonerate him mm-hmm from the board and charge altogether Christmas. Oratorio it's pretty good. It's not an incredible work so even Saint John's passion. It's quite good but not as good as B minor mass or Saint Matthews Passion Right. So there's extreme selection in the Bach. You're hearing and thinking about I you know the funny thing for me is is that I had to swim upstream from SEGOVIA 's translation of Spanish Piano Music Onto Guitar I didn't realize is that there was an entire world of Spanish Piano Music Where the guitar wasn't originally thought of necessarily as a as a concert door art music instrument it was more of a folk instrument and so that's been the huge well of Of interest for me like listening listening to Albany's on on Pianos Amazing Alicia dealer. Rocha right. She's a wonderful performer of that but the guitar music I find it very interesting to take some more modern like ambient music like Brian Eno or the whole movement from the nineteen seventies and. Listen in think through what was going on there right and then go back to earlier Guitar Music Baroque but also the Spaniards and listen to it through that Lens and it just comes alive in a completely new with Robert Frith. It was evacuated of clearly vic wayland music or something like that and I've never traced. Ny felt that Are you you. So I'm a big fan of what is misleadingly. Called World Music. Just listening to as many different musics as you can kind of figuring out there logics and then going back applying it to what you already knew from rock and roll or classical music or jazz and seeing it all you know quite a new are you. That's a very high productivity activity. Are you interested interested in in music. Sure of course. So when I found Muneer Bashir In Iraq I just my my jaw dropped. I thought this was such gorgeous stuff and then and I sort of made my way to Minerva. She furry trash who I think is unbelievable. And eventually I was listening in this Middle Eastern idiom and I hear him start to play with Blues and rock and roll on the mood and it was fascinating watching somebody from Iraq and who'd studied in Europe. Of course watching you there's a for example in at Stanford University there's this Garden which I think has Master carvings from Polynesia Indonesia and there's versions of Rodin Gates of hell in the thinker in this Polynesian or or or Indonesia idiom and it's just fascinating to see oneself regarded by the other. Sometimes I think the more interesting question is which music don't you like and to think through those so I'm going to ask you Eric. What music do you really not like Arcand to and you think just bad or wrong somehow I have trouble with music that doesn't allow us to impart more emotion because it's too highly produced. I am pretty sure that has to do with the emotion because I find Jimi Hendrix Very emotional I found that shares believe where she uses the auto tune function as an instrument rather than as a correcting of the human voice to be very emotional But when I hear very like computer oriented dirty and you name a name what are you reject point the finger not cheese. Do I have to you have to. It's your podcast cast and I hope the person isn't listening. Well I guess there was a time when I didn't like Amy Stewart's version in of knock on wood which was a great piano? R&B Song Because I found that it was so oh highly overproduced that I just couldn't cut into it That that had to do with the disco influence. I'm choosing things now that I really disliked like but I've sort of May become around because I find no look you find something in just about everything that you listen listen to. It's very hard to create music. That's completely devoid of interest. And so if I spend more time with something even if it's really really bad I'll be able to find something in that. Well that's why it became famous. And that's why that's why it's being listened to I. I've been down on. EDM TO BE. I don't think that I've some point. We had a car ride with a friend and I said let's put on songs. We can single with person puts on some idiom. There was nothing close close to a campfire song inside of it. I found that kind of sad you buy into electronic dance music heavy metal. I meant to say heavy metal. such as maybe. There's a lot of artistry so I asked Ted Joy this when I did my conversation with Tyler podcast with him. He's one of my favorite music. Critics are brilliant guy. You should should have him on but I asked him heavy metal I said underrated overrated and he said well it's underrated but I couldn't get him to admit that he actually listen to it. And you want to go there I think it's underrated from technical musicianship. And I think it's often overrated in terms of what it does to Heart Paul Gilbert. That's exactly what he said in other word. Okay so Paul. Gilbert has a beautiful riff on this. He's a you know obviously fantastic guitars. But he says you can take a great Blues Guitar Guitarist. Teach them A lot of scales and turn them into a shredder of devoid of interest but with fantastic technical chops. I think that that's really sad I think the what one of the things I'm very concerned about is the fall off interest in musicianship ship like in guitar at the moment. We have these fantastic guitar virtuoso. Who Live on Youtube an instagram and the guitar universal versus paying attention to them but the outside Universe is not as this Guy Guthrie Govan Who Lots of people I know have never heard of this guy? And he's an unbelievable gift to the guitar. Where is he what what what group is part of what his main songs is? You know he can. He can be anyone you want and then he can be his own thing. He's like the grain of guitar. I gues