20 Episode results for "Becher"

'Valentine's Views' podcast: Arizona Cardinals preview

Big Blue View

38:44 min | 1 year ago

'Valentine's Views' podcast: Arizona Cardinals preview

"Are you troubled by strange hockey trades in the middle of the night. Do you experienced feelings of dread about N._H._l.. Free Agency have you or your family ever seen in New York islanders game. If the answer is yes then don't wait another minute. Pick up your mobile device and subscribe to Lighthouse Hockey podcast from espy nation today our courteous efficient hosts are ready to serve all of your islander needs and worries lighthouse hockey podcasts for New York islanders fans mm-hmm <music> giants fans and welcome to a new edition of the Big Blue View podcast. I'm Ed Valentine of Big Blue View and on today's show. We're going to talk about the Arizona cardinals to end to do that. We're joined joined by John Venerable of S._p.. Nations revenge of the Birds John Writes for the site and is co host of revenge the birds podcast John. Thank you very much for joining me today absolutely hey thanks for album excited to talk with you. Hey you know the cardinals were one of the more interesting teams in during the off season in they'll be <hes> kind of exciting to watch this year. So <hes> you know different <hes> a little different you know for the cardinals this year with with Kyle Murray at quarterback and and obviously that's where we have to start. What's your take or your your belief on whether the cardinals were right or not to <hes> to move on so quickly from Josh Rosen and to go in the direction of taken cuyler Murray first overall putting the franchise in his hands yeah? I think that's the question right now. <hes> that we're going to watch over the course of the next two to three years whether or not the cardinals were proven right <hes> or if you know Rosen even gets the opportunity to prove them wrong considering his current situation elation I can tell you that I was a big supporter of dating back to last season. I thought the cardinals got tremendous value for him when they traded up in the first round from fifteen to pretend only giving up a third and the fifth in the process <hes> <hes> I can also tell you that rose in this time last year in camp looked outstanding looked every bit like <hes> one of the best young quarterback prospects in football and then it just kind of unraveled there. The cardinals put together probably one of the worst N._F._l.. Staffs from a coaching standpoint standpoint that this league is seen in some time I think Rosen had some of the worst pass protection upfront that <hes> that the League has not seen since David car. If you check the advanced analytics it would support that <hes> Steve wilks is a is a good man is a a sound defensive head coach or excuse me a sound defensive coach but really has no business being a head coach we found that out and then to hire Mike McCoy your offensive coordinator in the year twenty eighteen is just outlandish so rosen was conceivably. It'll be set up to fail from a coaching administrative and personnel standpoint <hes> but I fully expected him to run this cliff Kingsbury offense moving into the off season. I thought all the Marie hype was white noise. I thought they were trying to drum up a trade up opportunity formerly whether it be Oakland or your New York giants and then as we got closer and closer to the draft and <hes> noise started getting louder and you got reputable people like Chris Mortensen and Adam schefter saying like this happen you know the the rest of us had to come to grips with as much as I liked Rosen as a prospect in in one it continued to see him potentially do well elsewhere. You know I I am very much a big buyer into what cliff Kingsbury <hes> could do for this team offensively offensively and if he deems Kyla Maria quarterback he and Steve Kaime deem him as the quarterback of the future into maximize this offense who am I to judge <hes> I will say the cardinals were historically bad offensively last year and by historically bad they had <hes> <unk> only average roughly thirteen point five points per game less than fourteen points per game in today's n._F._l.. Standards that's horrifically bad <hes> so even though I wanna pile on everything other than Rosen I mean he was not good over the course of the Games he started he got progressively progressively wars. He lost confidence in you know it is it is fair to question what his ceiling would be. Everybody coming out compared him to maybe a poor man's Matt Ryan and we've Seen Matt Ryan have success in this league but he I don't think anybody would consider him a transcendent talent and I I firmly believe that's what they consider Kyla Marie to be in listen once we got past the point of swallowing the compensation that we give up for Rosen you know coming to grips with the fact that we weren't going to get that compensation back and just focusing on Kyla Marie the player. I think a lot of cardinal fans tell you they're excited about Marie. They're excited about what energy he can bring to this to really this irrelevant franchise at this point Marie I think has the same kind of Gravitas and excitement built around him similar to Michael Vick back but he's much more of a refined pocket passer. I think his game is much more suited for the twenty nineteen N._F._l.. Vicks was back in the early two thousands and so my biggest concern is and this is probably unfair to him but because he's never been hurt but just how will the old up over the course of a sixteen game N._F._l.. Season can't take the pounding. He's GonNa take behind that Arizona offensive line now to Kim series credit. They're going to be in the shotgun ninety nine percent of the time they're going to be doing three step. Res Are going to be doing quick. dropbacks bags are going to be doing. You'll fluoride receivers the ball quick. David Johnson's going to be utilized in the passing game much more often than he was neutered under Mike McCoy last year so he's not. I don't think he's GonNa take many hits as obviously Rosen did last year but you know from an on the field standpoint. A Kayla Marie is the real deal if he can stay healthy. I think he'll be a franchise quarterback to what level I don't know but <hes> I'm excited to find out John I wanna get to cliff Kingsbury but before I do that on to circle back to a couple of things that you mentioned there. You talked a little bit about Steve Wilks and really this is just a comment. I have to say that I'm glad that it was the cardinals and not the giants who ended up making the Steve wilks mistake. Make sure I I seriously thought that with Dave Gentlemen having been in Carolina in having worked with Steve Wilks I thought that will would probably get an interview for the giants job and might be one of the front runners to get that head coaching job and say what you want about Pat Shurmur and some people have I guess people have varying opinions on Shurmur. I think in the N._F._l.. Dot Com ratings ratings that came out today he was the lowest ranked head coach other than guys who are in their first seasons as head coaches for for whatever that's worth but thank you to the Arizona Cardinals for making the wilkes mistake instead of letting the giants do it yeah well. It got us to were today so I can't fault you there. I will say the cardinals wanted to interview. Pat Shurmur had a lot of interest in him and would have probably named him their head coach had the giants not been his prime target so the cardinals cardinals kind of fell back into Wilkes and I can also tell you that the cardinals probably as crazy as it sounds would have been better off keeping your current defensive coordinator James Becher and promoted him after Bruce Arians left the cardinals were consistently a top five ten defense with James Becher <hes> they ran what they do now conventional three four but they for whatever reason uprooted their entire defense under wilkes and that started off the chain reaction of the ineptitude that was the twenty eighteen cardinals now what that I will say in defense to Wilkes is he was probably much more suited to inherit a veteran franchise quarterback like like the situation that you're seeing in in. I WANNA say San Diego with the chargers. That kind of team was you know had the pieces in place for him just kind seamlessly transition and they ran his his preferred style defense. You've got a franchise quarterback in place. I think that he would have been more successful than he was but you know just the plan that was put in place by by him from a schematic attic standpoint and then really Steve Time should not go without blame the Carton Arizona Cardinals G._M.. That brought in you know both Mike Glennon and Sam Bradford to run. Mike McCoy's offense. I may just it was a comedy of Ariza comedy of ineptitude from this franchise and what it led to was the team bottoming out to the point where they got the number one overall pick and they've essentially head to restart in very much are are looking instead of short cutting instances last year at quarterback and head coach. They're going for a long rebuild approach and that's the sound way to do it John since you mentioned him. I have to ask you about James Becher. He was brought to New York last year. There was quite a bit of fanfare over the the hiring of Becher instead instead of the retaining of former defensive coordinator Steve Spagnolo the giants defense performed badly a year ago. Dave Gettleman said a number of times it had they been able to get stops stops at the end of games they would have won four or five more games than they did in their five and eleven season might take on bet your has been that it's not fair to judge him off of last season because he he didn't have the kind of players that fit the type of defense that he likes to run. Just give giants fans your thoughts on James Becher on the kind of defensive coordinator. He is in on what he might bring to the giants given some time to fully implement his system and get the kind of players that he wants yeah. Absolutely I think the perfect situation to compare imperative is what you just explained. Cardinals Headey Fan Beloved Defensive Coordinator Todd Bowles in twenty fourteen who led them to oppose birth. It was very much defensive heavy team they were they were top five into law or told the events and <hes> to that regard todd went on to be the defensive coach of the year and get the job with jets and so it was very much inflicts who would be the next defensive coordinator in the interview outside the organization but eventually settled on James Becher per Bruce Arians recommendation and it worked out. I mean the cardinals the next year with James Becher now that the offense took flight but he played a very nice complimentary style of defensive football en route two a division championship which they had netted since Kurt Warner had been there and also an appearance in the N._F._C. Championship game and had they not run into a buzz saw on Cam Newton and the Carolina Panthers. I think they would have been you know right there to to contend for a super bowl and did the threat the duration that season I e held multiple high powered offenses to you know subpar performances. He <hes> had a very strong showing against Aaron Rodgers outside of those two like hail. Mary miracle throws that Roger seems to pull off against everybody. If you go back and watch the divisional round in two thousand fifteen Patrick Peterson has a pick six at would have sealed the game and Rogers was still in the teens. I think late in the third quarter that the officials called back on a Phantom holding call so my recommendation him for giants fans is wait until he gets the proper personnel which he did not have last year. I think that's why I says a lot of frustration with giant fans with with the team not going <hes> edge rusher in the first round this year because that's really what he needs to make his defensive offensive front seven work defensive front seven Guy <hes> and he had Chandler Jones and Marcus golden go off in two thousand sixteen if you look at their numbers both of them had double digit sacks marcus golden led the league with thirteen and a half sacks <hes> in in two thousand sixteen Chandler Jones the next year had <hes> fifteen sacks Chandler Jones was was a good player in New England. He became in the League player in my opinion in Arizona partially because of James Becher <hes> you know he had a he had a lot of quality players but he produced. Multiple top ten defensive finishes as well in the team <hes> opted not to retain him or even offer him a contract because they hired Steve wilks four three guy had they gone with an offensive minded head coach like Pat Shurmur. I think you'd see probably the same a combination that you're seeing in New York in Arizona so giant fans should take solid so that I think is good coach. I'm not sure he's a great coach but I think he's very probably a top twelve defensive coordinator in the League and again. If you give him the talent he can. He can help your team <unk> division titles in have success. I know spagnuola historically was was fantastic in New York <hes> and and so it was probably time for change at some point as well so <hes> don't give up on him just yet. It's I think it's more so about addressing the defensive personnel because I think the giants have have made a lot of investments in their offense recently in it's time to to shed some light on the Defense John you know the giants did invest heavily defensively INA draft with with several of their picks being on the defensive side of the ball. You mentioned the edge rusher situation and at seventeen in the draft which was the giants second first round pick they. I chose the big defensive tackle Dexter Lawrence when Montanez sweat who's the edge rusher type guy that everyone sort of figured that the giants would go after was still the board just knowing a bet your defense and as you said he really needs that edge rushing presence just your thoughts on on selecting a guy like Dexter Lawrence and and what he does was or could do in a in a James Becher type defense yeah if and I forgot to mention Marcus golden is now a member of the New York giants and I have always been not to get too off track but I have always been a huge marcus golden fan. His twenty seventeen season was wiped out with an A._C._l.. Tear that he really wasn't back from last season and he played out of position. I mean he's really going to be back in his current outside linebacker role for the first time since two thousand sixteen where he led. I believe the N._F._l.. And saxwood twelve in half thirteen sacks that year Mus- really good player and so if the giants are getting net marcus golden who's still under the age of thirty even if he puts eight to ten sacks season that's going to do dividends <hes> I know that sign Kary Martin who was a cardinal a third round pick a nice rotational player in you're right they do not have a transcendent edge rusher but like you mentioned no Montas sweat would have been good value but there were some health concerns <hes> some medical concerns. I don't think <hes> you know anybody was rating outside of of that. First group of pass rushers that all excuse me went in the top ten was a pretty big drop off and so you're looking at best positional value in like you mentioned the cardinals utilize the really the five technique sneak that knows three four nose tackle to perfection with Becher <unk> he had Corey Peters who is a high contributor from Atlanta to come over in the cardinals defense and was a really nice player and they were always stout against the run is in Arizona and that's you know the first success to great defense is yet to be able to stop the run and I know if you look up Corey Peter's numbers <hes> in two thousand sixteen twenty seventeen they weren't great statistically but just the presence up the middle in show. I'm sure that's the frustration nationw- giants fans as he's GonNa play a lot of Quality Sundays unless you're watching intently. You may not see it. Jump out on the stat sheet so what I would tell you is I I would hope for Marcus golden to have a rebound year and then next year depending on where you're picking working. <hes> try to target an edge rusher but going Daniel Jones in the top ten if you believe he's the quarterback of the future you can't risk in on an edge rusher if you'll have the quarterback I'm a firm believer quarterback takes care of most everything then you put pieces around him to be successful so oh you know I I give a lot of people are dogging on that pick. If you don't have a quarterback you're not gonNA win much of anything in this league in in so <hes> you know next year addressed the pass rusher the cardinals got pretty far <hes> without a dominant pass rusher sure until Chandler Jones arrived in twenty sixteen the cardinals did not have him in their two thousand fifteen playoff run if you go back and look up those numbers and they still were I think top ten in sacks granted they had closed Campbell as a as a defensive end but go that can look who they were starting at outside linebacker in the postseason in two thousand fifteen. It was a lot of street free agents. Some Alex okafor mixed in there so veteran got the most out of that unit <hes> and I I would much rather have had marcus Golden <hes> in his late twenties than whatever they were touting that year so John Let me ask you one more question before we take a quick break here. I was going to ask you in fact <hes> in a little while. I'm actually going to ask you kind of go player by player. Some guys that are with the cardinals now some former cardinals that are with the giants but let me ask you this Marcus golden question before we move on the thing that I'm concerned about with golden olden isn't necessarily the health per se I can look at last year and say okay. He wasn't healthy. You go back a couple of years to win. He had the big sack season but I look at that and despite the numbers I'm not sure he was a number one pass rusher on that cardinals team. I believe he also had Chandler Jones on one side and I believe the cardinals also had callejas Campbell at that time. If I'm if I'm not mistaken so my question is when you look at the giants they might conceivably be asking Marcus Golden. You know coming off a couple of down years to be a number one pass rusher. Can he be that guy or is he a guy that had a lot of that success because of the quality of players that was around him a little bit of both. I think the cardinals took him in the second round and had touted him as what they believe was a franchise edge rusher. If that position exists from the moment they drafted him and that was the same year that <hes> another highly touted outside linebacker from Missouri came out that went to Denver his his name escapes me but <hes> Marcus was the Kennedy afterthought in that class and he had I think under double digit sacks for his last year at Missouri but they played a traditional three before defense and so we're like okay yeah let's wait and see and then he flashed briefly in twenty fifteen just wasn't ready as a rookie but then came out and exploded the next year and you're right I mean he benefited from Jaylen Jones on the opposite side and he benefit from glazed Campbell being upfront. The Joe <unk> Jones and class play on the same side of the field for the most part. I mean Marcus was on his own the F. Some cleanup sacks sure but I don't think he lucked into twelve and a half thirteen sacks that season. I think a realistic mark for him this year I think the over over under I would put at it for his Saxon in twenty nineteen is eight and for getting him as cheap as you did. I think that that would be a sound contribution to giants. Defensive has some nice pieces you know I can't speak to their depth on the defensive line outside Dexter Lawrence in in and you know who's at defensive end outside of Olsen Pierre and some other guys but what I can tell you is that he is a high character guy. He's somebody that's going to be in this league pending health for longtime in that I think could still consistently be playing at a high level well into his thirty's assuming he can stay healthy he somebody that I would not count against because he's going to do everything on and off the field the right way. <hes> and I know it's somebody the cardinals had targeted about giving a big time second contract to before his you know Oh a._C._l.. Injury and then the coaching change I think had he not gotten heard of course in they had kept a three or four mine defensive head coach even with <hes> the Chandler Jones I think they would have paid marcus golden and I think he would have gotten paid nicely assuming you look at some of these other or defensive end deals outside linebacker deals for some US Delta Way Liberty Vernon. I'm Markus goldens a better player Olivier Vernon giants fans will be thrilled to to hear that assessment in will cross our fingers and hope that you're absolutely absolutely correct because the giants definitely need some playmaking off the edge of their defense. Let's let's take a quick break for a word from our sponsors here and then we will come back and continue our conversation the station with John Venerable about the Arizona cardinals. Hey I'm the editor in chief. The verge host of the verge cast we even revamping the more and more lately and coming out that it's twice a week sometimes even a third bonus episode on Tuesdays. I talked to influential people around the world of Tech like Microsoft Founder Bill Gates and other tech exactly founder of lime scooters the C._E._o.. Of beyond meat we must have been talking a lot of reporters and academics at the major pressing policy issues in tech like facebook's content moderation in great youtube harassment plan or lack there of and whether or not the government should make up Amazon which maybe it should and then every Friday I sit down with executive editor bone and Paul Miller for chatshow cover the latest in Tech News and product of US agreeing our other reporters around the verge that show is party. Listen to to your all that more. If you subscribe to the verge wherever you get your podcast bluff Rita listen and join us so again subscribe to the virtuous wherever you get your podcast. We'll see they're all right. Giants fans were back here on the Valentine's views this podcast talking with John Venerable of S._p.. Nations revenge of the birds about the Arizona Cardinals John a couple more questions for you and then I wanna play a little bit of a little bit of name game with you. We've talked about cliff Kingsbury but I haven't really asked you yet. What is your take on Kingsbury? I mean this is a guy who basically is a failed college head coach who who is now getting a chance to run an N._F._l.. Team basically he has a really thin resume is this guy who can actually succeed as an N._F._l.. Head coach has organ find out. I think we're going to look to this as an experiment that really nobody else will willing to take on but the cardinals are banking on the trends that they're seeing throughout the rest of the N._F._l.. Is that you're going to pair in offensive head coach albeit one with no experience with what they believe is a young transcendent franchise quarterback. I thought they should have done this last year I would have given Josh Rosen an offensive minded head head coach they didn't do that. It blew up in their face. I think defensive head coaches unfortunately are the way of the past with the way the rules are based now. I would not hire a defensive head coach in today's n._F._l.. Unless my team was you know Peyton manning I and you know tailor-made to win a championship and you know everything lined up the right way. I would pair any young quarterback rookie or not with an offensive minded head coach. Somebody who's calling the plays or is an integral part of the play coin process and that's what they targeted with cliff Kingsbury. I can tell you that in December even with Steve wilks on the way out. He hadn't been fired yet. The team was con- some kind of connection conversation with Clip Kingsbury. They identified him as a target. I I know they liked Adam. Gates a fair amount they interviewed gates early on and I can tell you it was down to the New York jets and the Arizona cardinals forklift Kingsbury services they went back and forth <hes> in a somewhat of a bidding more to get him to be their next head coach. The cardinals not hire clippings berry or had cliff Kingsbury are not chosen the Arizona cardinals he would be the New York jets head coach and the cardinals likely would have hired Adam Gates they would have swapped positions and so what I can tell you is. They are trying out a unique experiment in which the G._M.. Is Hiring in an offensive coordinator is head coach to work primarily with his offense the G._M.. Cliff Steve Time essentially picked hand for hand his defensive staff <hes> that being Vance Joseph and as defensive coordinator coordinator and is filling out the rest of his coaching staff outside the offensive side <hes> Kingsbury has you know complete control the offense <hes> and situationally on Game Day he is going to you know run the team run the show but it's it's very. Very different than how things have been done historically in the N._F._l.. In the past they wanted to pair cuyler Murray or Josh Rosen because had they decided not to go with Murray with a young offense of mine that could grow with him assuming coming this year and maybe next year is going to be a rebuilding year. He's thirty nine years old and you know say what you want about his coaching record. He can score points and that's what wins in the N._F._l.. Now I mean we saw Kansas City. We saw the steelers we shot saw the rams. <hes> struggled defensively certain points last season the chiefs especially early on but they were putting up thirty forty points a game early on in the season and the cardinals want to have an offense like you saw in those cities last year and I think that the defense is gonna GonNa go by by the wayside at least early on and then once they feel like Marie and Kingsbury are ascending enough as an offensive staple Ville addressed the defense kind of at a situational basis. I think they'll always hoped to have quality pass rushing but you know I don't. I don't know if there's GonNa be as much of a precedent placed on the cardinals defense when the offense was so historically bad I can't for those who didn't watch the team is your first of all. You're very fortunate but they were one of the worst watches I can remember as a you know the thirty year old that has been watching football all my life. I've never seen a product this poorly offensively in for that to be stated in the year twenty eighteen <hes> that being the team last year with the way the rules are trending. It's just it was horrific to watch Larry. Fitzgerald led the team in receiving yards with seven hundred and three four receptions David Johnson only average three point six yards per carry but that doesn't even do it justice the team you know Josh Rosen led the team in touchdown passes with eleven through fourteen interceptions completed under sixty percent of his throws. I don't even think they reached three thousand yards passing as a team in fact they didn't <hes> they were last in first down last and third down conversion last and fourth down conversion last in total offense last points per game last rushing yards last in passing yards. I mean it you have to try to be this bad offensively and so of course the cardinals are going to try to do something this drastic in order to jump start this and you can already see it the <unk> it's paying dividends yet. The cardinals are <hes> on preseason T._v.. On Nationally Televised Games twice and they only have one nationally televised game that was predetermined before they pick Murray so they're hoping Marie <hes> makes them relevant again <hes> <hes> we can worry about. I guess winning later. That's a that's a mouthful of bad statistical performances. They're unbelievable yeah you. Would you had to watch it to believe it. I mean we got to the point the end of last we're we're just hoping they would get out of the game with Rosen still being attacked worst case scenario <unk> towards A._C._l.. But was fully possible they just it looks they were starting to practice. Level offensive line in their offensive line is great to begin with but they saves practice level street for raisins by the end of the year and that's you know part of it's on the G._M.. Was Not competent enough to address that position in what I will give credit to the New York giants and their front office. They've made it a priority. This franchise would kill for Kevin Zeitler or will hernandez end as or even innate soldier. I mean so the giants I think have done a really nice job and I'm hoping the cardinals can emulate it to some degree over the next eighteen months and really rebuilding this line from scratch and adding some key pieces. I think your two guards in particular are to that I would have killed have had this past year is a really steady player in this league and I was a huge will hernandez families when he was coming out last year so <hes> I think the giants at least upfront are headed in the right direction so let me ask askew this <hes> before we before we get into a little bit of <hes> of the name game kind of thing that I've mentioned earlier in the show cardinals had eleven draft picks so beyond beyond Cuyler Murray the first overall pick out of those eleven picks. Are there a couple of guys in that group that you're really really excited about yeah I mean it was it was a a banner day for the team. They <hes> get a lot of great value but that's to be expected when you're picking first in each round. I think the couple of guys jump out vira Murphy is much as I wanted them to go tackle at pick thirty three. I think Byron Murphy's He's positional value overall value. A pick thirty three was too good to pass up for the team. I think a lot of people had him as the number one corner in this draft in with Patrick Peterson potentially being on the outs with the franchise suspended six games next season <hes> being able to implement him. I am <hes> fellow teammate at Washington Baker. <hes> gives you a nice <hes> duo in the secondary for hopefully the years to come in. I think one of the biggest under the radar moves that any team made the draft was Akeem Butler at the first pick of the fourth round Butler who a lot of people had a you know a mid second grade on if not higher I saw some mocks him going late I in early April to get him at the top of the fourth round and I get it he's raw but he somebody with six five four four speed and to be able to pair him him with with Kyla Murray and then what else they've done it receiver in kind of uprooted at position <hes> just to ask him to to go and do you know his traditional go routes. He's made some sensational catches in his career. At Iowa state. He and Kingsbury have a long lasting relationship relationship so his value I think at the top of the fourth round don't be surprised if in two years from now he is the defacto starter opposite Christian Kirk on the outside somebody that teams also very high on and I would say to somebody to target your fantasy grabs years of breakout player for the team but <hes> Byron Murphy and it Kim Butler were both tremendous value <hes> players were they were picked up and what I also will tell you is landy. Isabella was the pick for Rosen was the player that they had traded traded away Rosenbaum and they got a second round pick for Miami a late second round pick and they use that on on India's Abell Isabella in my opinion. His ceiling is probably right at a thousand yards and so a lot will be made that the cardinals traded away a potential franchise. <unk> is quarterback for a slot receiver on but they view him as an interchangeable piece punt returner kick returners. Somebody who had the highest deep ball grade of of any player via pro football focus was an all American at his level play at Umass so I mean ah I think that that that position itself is is gone leaps and bounds compared to where it was last season that being receiver <hes> but much to my Chagrin of course if you listen if you've been listening to this podcast you know that I'm a sucker for the o line and in having them not address it again with Murray you know only being five nine that that concerns me but from a value standpoint. I can't argue with with what they did all right so let's finish up with this. I'M GONNA throw some names is it. You just give me your reaction your thoughts on on the players that that I mentioned there's some crossover between the giants and cardinals with the players that have gone back and forth so let me throw a few names Achy you've already talked talked about Marcus Golden. You're already talked a little bit about Kareem Martin who is in a second year with the giants so let's <hes> let's throw a couple names at you a guy that the cardinals signed to a big free the agent contract Justin Pugh your thoughts on on pugh very disappointing. I think the echo probably would allow giants fans felt I think somebody who can't stay healthy and when he's healthy he's he's a solid player to baverage average player at the guard position now. The cardinals aren't asking him to play tackle like the giants did at times but somebody I think that the cardinals are going to be looking to move off of a after the season assuming he's not healthy released fourteen games antoine great player in his prime the cardinals <hes> guideline of miles mileage out of him over the course of his last couple of years in Arizona but somebody who's probably this is on his last legs in the N._F._l.. They can get a a competent season out of him in New York. That'll probably be the last one E C. Can he play at in his age. Thirty five season. I looked at his splits and on pro football focus in terms of positions that he played laid. Can he still play for another year at least a competent free safety. Yeah I think so if you give him enough ample time on the sideline if if you play five have sixty bs at one time. I think that he is a tremendous presence in the locker room. He's one of the highest character players I can remember. arriens talking about Aaron's was with him in Indianapolis when they won that <hes> division title when Aaron's was the <hes> default head coach during Ghana's <hes> surgery and cancer scare and so <hes> aarons was a big reason why was the reason why they brought him to Arizona and so sure implementing a young safety in the secondary like that your bill peppers like the giants are he's the perfect kinda running mate <hes> he's probably best suited to be your third or four safety <hes> but you know starting and then you know leading way to some younger players rising up. I think <hes> is fine. That'd be he's. He's a the CY I think he'll be a solid contributes whom he can say healthy but not somebody you want. You know foresee playing pass this year. Eli Penny is at allies. You're penny right yes so he was kind of a big power bag that the cardinals envision you lies along with David Johnson and then once a figured out that David could be elite in between the ball tackler at the goal line that they kind of scrap that and that was the breakout season a twenty sixteen David Eh twenty plus touchdowns. I always was a big fan of his game <hes> but Barclays so <hes> comparable to David and better than David at this point is career on. I don't know how much he'd be utilized but somebody that I definitely I would feel great rate about using him in the Red Zone in wearing people out especially with those two guards and the last one is another defensive player another former cardinal that the giants have have brought in to give them some depth along on the defensive line a guy that to be honest. I know virtually nothing about and that would be Olsen peer. Yeah Actually Olsen peer is <hes> somebody I envision the cardinals Oh keeping after the two thousand seventeen season and of course let him go <hes> because they transitioned out of their face three or four and I thought it was a terrible decision in the twenty sixteen season the cardinals cardinals <hes> had to keep him on their active roster in would not put him on their practice squad. I think he was a rookie. Maybe A second-year player. They were so high on him in his early stages but he just didn't have a space on the defensive line. It was one one of their best defensive line groups in two thousand sixteen <hes> that they just stabbed him on their active roster and the next season in limited play he did not play he was not a starter consistent starter. <hes> maybe a spot start at five and a half sacks thanks for a solid defense but one that had lost glaze Campbell one that was trying to force feed is Robert Kim Digi and he outplayed a lot of defensive lineman on that on that defensive line in twenty seventeen and for whatever reason the cardinals opted not got to keep him and let him walk in so it was a little bit disappointing after this season they basically made him a relevant with Steve Wilks. I I would look at the twenty seventeen as more of an indictment of who he is somebody who he's only twenty seven years old. He was undrafted like I mentioned Scott some good size and he's almost six five three hundred pounds <hes> he can be a nice rotational player for the giants defensive line absolutely John. Thank you very much for spending some time today dropping some cardinals knowledge on us. If you want to know more about the cardinals checkout revenge the birds website checkout John's podcast with revenge the birds giants fans as always we thank you for listening. We encourage you to subscribe to Big Blue Radio on all of your favorite podcast applications right. Thank you very much and we'll talk to you again soon.

cardinals giants Arizona Cardinals cliff Kingsbury Josh Rosen Steve wilks New York Arizona defensive coordinator marcus Golden New York giants James Becher football Mike McCoy Pat Shurmur cuyler Murray Carton Arizona Cardinals David Johnson
The Chris and Joe Show: Breaking down the loss to the Packers

Big Blue View

29:03 min | 1 year ago

The Chris and Joe Show: Breaking down the loss to the Packers

"Are you troubled by strange. Hockey trades in the middle of the night do you experienced feelings of dread about. NHL Free Agency have you or your family ever seen in New York rylander scheme. If the answer is yes. Don't wait another minute. Pick up your mobile device and subscribe to Lighthouse Hockey podcasts. From espy nation today are courteous and efficient hosts Are Ready to serve. All of your islander needs and worries lighthouse hockey podcasts for New York. Islanders fans you're listening to the Chris and Joe Show presented by ESPN Asia and big blue view. I joined by Chris. Glum as always giving you the breakdown from the latest New York giants game and we have yet another loss he continuing streak of losses for the New York giants Paul to the Green Bay packers thirty one to thirteen. Chris and I had some time to take a look at the film as we always. He's due on Tuesdays and broke it down giving you the offensive and defensive positives and negatives so from thirty one to thirteen loss to the packers. There's you could probably assume there were not really many positives. After actually getting to see the tape we can actually point out in acknowledge a majority of these negatives and to kick things off going right into the offense. The one positive that we had for the offense was noticing that they were getting the ball out a lot quicker earlier earlier on in the game. The offense was moving efficiently. There weren't too many long dropbox and they were able to actually get those passes out a lot sooner preventing some some significant pressure from building. Up in accumulating. It was actually a little bit surprising to go back and look at the stats from the game. The packers Akers didn't have a sack but I think that is really more of a more accounting semantics than them not getting Daniel Jones because they did have seven quarterback heads Scenarios Smith was credited with five of them There was one that one play where it looked like Jones and saquon Barkley were. We're just absolutely not on the same page. It looked like they were executing two different plays that looked like a sack on the field it. It was credited however as a quarterback run for a loss of four yards. So I suppose we could just take that as it as it is but all in all the getting the ball out quickly that did help an offensive line. That was going up against a tough defensive front. It seemed like they had a very clear goal and intent to get the ball out quickly because they knew the had to deal with the better pass rushers and arguably one of the best pass rush duos in the NFL in Preston Preston Smith and while one of them was able to offer five quarterback hits there weren't any registered sacks that we know of in the question if that was A matter of the statistician. We couldn't really acknowledge your find anything. Besides the seven quarterback hits that were racked up and one thing. I noticed earlier in the game before we saw those late. Two interceptions by Daniel Jones is that they were being quick about getting the ball out. They were able to have quicker passing concepts whether it was five to seven yards or at the first down marker trying to get the ball out quickly preventing Dana Jones from overthinking in holding rolling the ball as long as he was doing earlier on in the season and as I was watching the game. I was thinking to myself that this is actually a positive step forward that we're seeing Daniel Jones being quicken his decision making but towards the end of the game. They took a step backward that. We're not doing that as often in that I would argue. Maybe you've led to to the interceptions that he threw. Yeah especially the second one in particular kind of stood out to me because you saw Jones burp the baby as mark. Scofield likes to put it. He padded the ball a few times. Double triple clutched and then just let it rip to no-one in particular except Zip for the packers defensive back who came down with it sailed it a couple yards over sterling shepard's head who if the ball I've been on time and on target had the I doubt yes he had gotten into shepherd it could have been a first down and that transitions nicely into our one negative that we had from this game and the giants. That's offense. I actually moved pretty well. They actually had more yards than the packers did in this game but some poor plays on third down got getting them off the field early Also two field goals drives as they could have scored on but most importantly the three interceptions were essentially Dr Killers. The last one came when the game was pretty much much out of hand for the giants. Maybe they could've put something miraculous together if if they were able to march down the field but did not look like that in that situation the other two were were Dr Killers. They were momentum killers and like we said on the quick take show. We're actually going to break these things down and let you know what we saw on these particular interceptions. The the first one though Chris and I'm sure you you probably saw the same exact thing was just misreading the coverage on a curl route. He threw it when he thought that he had an open lane in an open open. Receiver but Kevin King. I believe it was the one who stepped in front of it and was able to pick that ball off. I'm not sure if that was a case of Jones may be deciding that was where he was. He's going to go with the ball before the snap. He's done that a few times. Or like you said. Just misreading the coverage Perhaps with the snow losing the packers hackers white uniforms a little bit. The yellow helmets might be a giveaway but White on white. Maybe just didn't see king step in front of the pass that one. It looked like he definitely knew where he wanted to go. Because it was a very confidently thrown intersection the second one again. That's the one where to me. It just looks like indecision ruled the play on that one and then the third one he might have overthrown the ball a little bit trying to fit it into dairy seriously and make something happen with try to will a come from behind upset victory but that when he just he threw a great passer that defensive back him right in stride. It's just if the decision had been reversed slate that could have been a touchdown. Yeah I think what the the last one that was really tight coverage on dairy Slayton if Slayton had that extra step and I think that Dana Joneses so accustomed to seeing deriously have have that extra step and be able to be a head of defensive backs but in this one particular instance tremont Williams was right on him because he threw the ball into a tight situation. It was a little bit. Just a maybe a hair ahead of SLAYTON and you can't expect a receiver to be able to make that grab especially a rookie receiver achiever. who was a late round? Pick to make that grab who still learning and developing just like Daniel. Jones is so if you're going to make that throw you gotta throw it a little bit behind Jerry Slayton to let them kind of come back to the ball instead of a head of him as the corner of defensive back on that play was basically able to pluck it out of various. Layton's hands the you talked about the second one and I think that was just strictly the ball slipping out of his hand a little bit. He had sterling shepherd. It was clear that that was who he was going to do. Because there was nobody else in the area and I think it just Kinda sailed on them came out of his handle too much when a little bit high darnold savage was able to come and pluck thing thing out of the air grabbed that ball. He's really talented safety. Like we talked about in the preview. Show so if you put that anywhere in the area of him he's GonNa make that play ten times out of ten Yeah and he almost made the play one final time. When Jones was kind of rolling out he saw saquon Barkley wanted to get the the ball to him to try to generate some kind of positive yardage and that was another one where I think the ball kind of slipped out of his hand because it was a little bit It was a little but high a little bit behind and actually kind of plunked off of Barclays Helmet and just just balanced off savage's fingertips so I think that was one way or the giants got a little bit lucky. Also the savage is a good player. You know we can't take anything away from him now. Savage definitely is a really good player. I and we're not trying to micromanage these interceptions by Dana Jones. Just trying to provide some more context on what might have happened if they were decision. Making thing or a lack of patients Being flustered and it just seemed like the elements might have had some impact on it. He also seemed like he was was mistimed on some of these throws. When you have a rookie quarterback you do have to take a look at the tape and and analyze where these mistakes are coming from and if you can build upon them I don't I don't agree just mistakes? That can't be corrected. They certainly can be corrected like we say every single week before he ended up throwing these interceptions leading up to the first one. I would argue the Danny Jones. Look pretty good in below average to very poor conditions that he was dealing with in the snow but he ends up having a poor stat line because of the three interceptions he threw now. We're going to transition defense giving you a plenty of negatives considering they gave up thirty one points but before we do that we're gonNA take a very short commercial break. This episode is brought to you by. CBS Sports HQ so much of Sports TV nowadays is full of made up trauma. It's a bunch of hot takes from people who don't even believe what they're saying just beating the same topics into the ground but CBS sports H.. Q. Is here to change all that. It's a network that streams live twenty four seven and their coverage is just focused on the game. They bring you the latest news highlights previews and reactions to all the onfield action fantasy. Sports experts will give the info. You need to make the right calls for your lineup. No fake debates. No politics just sports for real sports fans the best news of all it's free. I don't mean free for a week or a month or if you have some special cable package it's totally completely free for everybody. You don't even need a log in just sports for real sports fans just open the CBS sports APP and watch any time from anywhere on your phone or at home on your apple TV Roku or fire TV it couldn't be easier download the CBS sports APP and watch CBS SPORTS HQ Today. Hey I'm andy if you don't know me it's probably because I'm not famous but I did start grooming company called Harry's the idea for Harry's came out of a a frustrating experience. I had buying razor blades. Most brands were overpriced over. Designed out of touch at Harry's approaches simple. Here's our secret. We make sharp durable blades and sell them at honest prices for as low as two dollars. Each we care about quality so much that we do some crazy things like a world class German blade factory obsessing over every every detail means we're confident and offering one hundred percent quality guarantee. Millions of guys have already made the switch to Harry's so thank you you're one of them and if you're not we hope you give us a try with this special offer get a Harry starter. Set with a five Blade Razor waited handle shave gel and a travel cover offered just three bucks plus free shipping just go to Harrys DOT COM and enter eight to two at checkout. That's Harrys Dot com code eight to enjoy defensively. Surprisingly we have one positive from this game and it makes a lot of sense considering the stat. Line that we were able to see in the run defense by the giants. We saw a number of tackles for losses. The number I believe was five by this defense in stopping the run but in addition to that they were able to keep them under seventy nine rushing yards and that is against the team with two very talented running backs that are used them. mm-hmm affectively in using the run to set up the past so overall great day bye. They're on the run defense and slowing them down. Yeah that was the one one thing that really stood out in a positive way from the giants defense and I will say that's one thing winner. Williams has definitely shown. He excels at is using his quickness. To get through the line of scrimmage and make plays in the running game and when you have somebody like Leonard Williams in Dalvin Alvin Tomlinson Dexter Lawrence. BJ Hill. That is a stout defensive front that is going to be tough to run against once again. We saw the second second week we saw the giants play the off. Tackle runs very well for the most part. They showed really solid gap discipline. They did a good job setting a firm madge just running. Those plays right to the sideline and again for the most part in for most of the game giving the packers running backs just nowhere to go the final part the packers final actual Dr. We did see the run defense. Start to break down Jamal. Williams started to kind of run behind his pads is end a pickup yards after the After contact but for the most part the run defense should be counted as a positive for the giants. I think the goal for James Becher when he was planning this game in this game plan was to eliminate the run game and and try to force Aaron Rodgers to do everything and it was kinda working. It was kind of forcing the packers into these third and longs and I would is assuming that they were going to get off the field but because Aaron Rodgers is such a amazing mazing quarterback and he's been in the League so long he thrives on performing under pressure with guys coming at him being able to skip the pocket finding a receiver because he does all all that so well he was able to convert on these third and five or longer so not much of a surprise to me that they weren't able to stop her and Rogers considering the disparity and talent but I think a huge shadow does have to go to the run defense in the defensive line in not allowing the packers to run the ball effectively which they've done consistently this year they contained off the edges. Very very well did not allow any breaking of contain so they look very very good one thing before we move onto the next part I do. I say the giants were able to do that without stacking the box. Aaron Jones only saw nine percent of his runs this is per. NFL NEXT NEXT GEN stats only nine percent of his runs. Were against nate. Nand box and the giants didn't have a single eight-man box against Jamal Williams. They for the most part were able able to stop the run with seven or six man boxes. Kudos to the defensive front there at least in that regard yeah being able to play that style against the run just shows a commitment to stopping it when you don't have to stack the box but also it makes things kind of questionable because if you're not stacking the box that means that you're probably double using those guys in pass coverage show it. It's a bit mind boggling that they gave up as many first downs in yards in passing touchdowns as they did first negative though that we have and frankly this is one that little bit irked me a bit and I'm sure it did to you as well Chris And we also Janoris Jenkins. It was circulating news that he was running his mouth about not traveling with the best receiver. He was talking negatively about James Becher and while I agree that James Dispatcher is proven he is not the best defensive coordinator. I do not agree whatsoever with generous Jenkins saying that. Did he should be traveling with the best receiver. And then the way that I'm just looking at this is that we've seen Janoris Jenkins play against the best receivers and we've seen him get burt art. In the past two seasons give up huge games to top level receivers. So what makes him qualified to now. All of a sudden be the guy that's traveling and following those guys on every single play. He's fine where he is on the left side of the defense. Stick there and the other thing that I just want to I. I think some people might not be considering. This is that this defense has so many young defensive backs and players on it. Why the heck would you over complicate things with with having changing assignments and having to move people around when they can barely have consistency in getting the right play? Call in being in the right position. I'm sure James Becher is doing that. The keeping things as simple as possible. Not because he doesn't think you're good enough but you clearly generous Jenkins are not good enough to be following the best receiver Ni- right now. He is the giants best cornerback and probably their best secondary player but he is not on Patrick Peterson's level or some of the other guys who are able to match up on the number one receiver especially really if a team has a true number one receiver like Davante Adams guys of that caliber and give their defense a reasonable chance of taking them out of the game and what you brought up with trying to keep the defense simple as simple as possible that right now should be changed measures primary primary goal because we have seen enough just complete Miss Communications. We saw one. I believe it's On the packers final touchdown where the giants had twelve men on the field. Nobody looked sure like they had a clue where to line up if their hands ends. We're going to be on hands. We're going to be on the turf if they were standing up if they were a linebacker in the secondary on the defensive line. Nobody looked like they had a clue what was going on. And the packers Akers just snapped the ball in through the touchdown so keeping things simple. I think that's a big reason why the giants don't blitz all that often than the fact they've I've been really struggling to cover behind their blitzes. I understand veteran players guys who have won being frustrated. This is I think something where Jenkins is probably better off keeping it to himself but I suppose at least we didn't hear him screaming in the locker room like the cowboys did with Michael Bennett. Yeah I don't blame generous Jenkins for being frustrated. I just don't think he is all that talented. And he is a top level corner to be considering considering himself to be a guy that has to be following the number one receiver on the opposing team. I hope that James Measure the reason why that he's keeping keeping him. There is just to try and keep things simple for these young guys would make sense and I just think that's a little bit selfish to be saying things like that when when you have a group of young players that are trying to learn instead. Why don't you be a leader in? Try and help those guys get better. Make sure they're in the right spot instead of worrying about where you want to be on the field. That's my two cents in the you know my rant on the generous Jenkins comments after the game but back to the tape and the things that are very are important is we noticed. A lot of the giants secondary getting beat in zone up the middle. A lot of these plays that the the packers were able to pick up a ton of yards. Ords were updated on things that have been inconsistently but also consistently coming in game by game not every single Game that they allow a lot of passing up the middle of the of the of the defense and they actually ended up giving up two touchdowns there were up the middle of the field so things like that just need to cannot be happening when it continually ends up killing you on defense it. It's kind of distressing really that a few of them have come at the hands of Antoine Bethesda the first touchdown the Longwood two. That stand stood out to me in particular that that was not a complicated route by lazard. He it was a one cut. It was not a double move or an intricate passing concept designed to get receiver lost in coverage buffet ahead. LAZARD INC ORIG-. I believe the giants were playing a cover. Four on that run or on that play lazard was inveighs zone. He had him all he does is run opposed route cutting cutting in slightly and buffet flips his hips the complete opposite direction and acts. Like he's going to run the corner route and then at that point there was just absolutely no way he was going to get back around in time to defend the pass. There were other times. They had holding penalty against him extending a packers drive and that was just distressing to see from a guy who's supposed to be the long tenured veteran in the secondary on the other hand. I gig like what I was able to see from Julian love. Yeah love did look good and I. I saw him playing very very well which we spoke about the quick take show and at the Times. It seems like you were talking about buffet his mistakes. I think that it's apparent at times at the the players on the field. They're not properly executing in zone and they're not in the right position Specifically on that that touchdown to art but in addition to that I just don't understand why the giants continually use zone when it's clearly not working for them and also it's very predictable and any third down situation. I feel like they always come out and zone. If it's third and seven and longer they come out zone in the middle of the field is wide open. There's almost nobody there in the middle of the field to get a handle the ball or contested receiver for making a catch. So I don't understand. Outstanding Becher isn't making decisions to change things up. If if the if the one concept the overall basic concept running zone is not consistently working. You need to switch things up from time to time to at least make things unpredictable. It hasn't worked most of the season I don't understand NY. It's suddenly would start working now against the team. That has a very very good quarterback yet a definition of insanity right there I have no clue either I either. And we saw the giants biting hard on play action. Basically anytime the packers get into a third and long which was most third downs which was one thing. The giants did well but then they would just run a play action rollout and there would always be a receiver whether was Davante Adams. Toronto Alison a tight end. Somebody would be wide wide open about three yards of separation between them and the closest defensive. Back as basically the giants entire secondary's he's kind of just stood around zone looking at each other. It's something that probably should have gotten addressed in changed over the bye week with with four games left. I'm not sure we should expect any dramatic changes from here on out now. There won't be changes in the scheme or any dramatic coaches changes ages with the coaches unless we do see the giants choose to move on from a number of the players. Sorry the a number of the People in the coaching staff. We'll have to see what happens at the end of the season but the fundamental thing here is the best defensive coordinators in the League thrive on being unpredictable and creating confusion in unchanging up. Looks and not showing the same thing every single place so giants have to find a way to do that. And if it's not retaining James Becher then so be it move on from him and take that next step and bring somebody who's going to do a better job of you use utilizing the talents on the field. Final thing that we have found a negative is is the giants were able to get pressure. We're able to close down the pocket but they were not quick enough to capitalize and get any sacks or any serious quarterback hits the disrupt Aaron Rodgers yet. The giants were only credited with two quarterback hits. We did see them in the backfield Leonard Williams. Lorenzo Renzo Carter Marcus Golden. They were in the backfield a fair bit but this also ties in with their struggles in coverage with Aaron Rodgers. Here's ability to find open. Receivers that quick release of his. The giants just didn't have the quickness the ability to finish on those Russia's and that that's kind of been either the first or second half of the story with their defense all season long. I would argue that. They had a pretty good day against a a a strong offensive line and a pretty sure. Brian Baraga played in this game. So they they yeah. They didn't have the expected. UN experienced your inst- player in there so they looked good. Creating pressure is just. You gotta hit home at some point. And maybe the way that they're going to do that is bringing in drafting chase young among you cap off a a team of big. Stout defensive tackles and having an elite pass rusher to do it. We'll have to see what happens. We've along off season two coming ahead of us as this second overall pick continues to be the clear lock for the giants as all these other bad teams continue to lose around them lasting. We're talking about as we promised as we love to discuss special special teams here on the Chris and Joe Show is Aldergrove. Saas going to for to looking a little bit more comfortable not seeing seeming as off kilter. Because Zack the OSCE was not in the game calling. Holda who signed to the practice squad was snapping. Today's or yesterday's game rather and I would argue. He had a decent game. He had a better performance than we saw from the he was not one hundred percent clean. The first one he snapped a little bit was actually pretty high was was not an overly clean operation. But Italy's were out. It was easy to get down stuff like that is just GonNa continue to prove that Roh's needs to be the guy going forward. They need to retain in him. Doing kicker workouts and trying to bring new guys in is not the answer when you have one of the most talented kickers in the NFL. You GotTa do whatever you can to make things come uncomfortable for him not for the other guys in the special teams unit. I thought the giants new showed some I'd say tentative nece tit put Rosas on the field especially in the first half. When they repeatedly went for fourth downs in circumstances where maybe maybe last year or earlier this year they probably would have run Rosa's out on the field and let him make the forty five fifty yard attempt but I think between the conditions the elements going on and new long snapper Roe says having been the struggles he has had the past few games? I thought they were a lot more aggressive on fourth down than they had been previously. It obviously as Lee worked out especially in the first half and there are plenty of arguments to be made for teams being more aggressive on fourth down but I all all I did like the execution on the for the Field Goal Union the kicking team especially considering the footing in all of that. That couldn't have been great execution. Does have to be at the highest possible level when you are playing in conditions like that so it was good to see that things are a little bit cleaner. It's understandable of the snaps. Aren't going to be perfect. Because the ball is wet song as it was able to get down the leases were out and it was a clean operation. That's can be it from US folks. Thank you for tuning in as always be sure. Rayton subscribe subscribe wherever you're listening to us and also follow us on twitter at Joe Deleo and you can follow me spill d. e. l. e. Owen Full Kris at raptor. Mk Ice I am. And then lastly follow us. Big Blue View on any social media platform twitter and instagram. Big Blue View. Water Order Forrester. Day folks. Are you troubled by strange hockey traits. In the middle of the night I do you experience feelings of dread about NHL Free Agency. Have you or your family ever seen it New York islanders game. If the answer is yes then don't wait another minute. Pick up your mobile device and subscribe to Lighthouse Hockey podcasts from espy nation. Today are courteous. Inefficient hosts are ready to serve. All of your islander needs and worries lighthouse hockey podcasts for New York islanders fans.

giants Green Bay packers Chris And Daniel Jones the Times James Becher NFL Hockey Janoris Jenkins New York Aaron Rodgers NHL Free Agency defensive coordinator Harry Leonard Williams Jamal Williams Dana Jones
AI Today Podcast #83: Interview with Madelene Stolpe, Head of Digital Strategy, Health, City of Oslo, Norway

AI Today Podcast: Artificial Intelligence Insights, Experts, and Opinion

20:47 min | 2 years ago

AI Today Podcast #83: Interview with Madelene Stolpe, Head of Digital Strategy, Health, City of Oslo, Norway

"The today podcast produced by cog Milica cuts through the hype and noise to identify what is really happening now in the world of artificial intelligence. Learn about emerging AI trends technologies and use cases from cognreznick analysts and guests experts. Hello and welcome to the today podcast. I'm your host, Kathleen mulch, and I'm your host Ronald smells, our our guest today as Madeleine Stowe ping who's the head of digital strategy at health at city of Oslo in Norway. Welcome mellon. Thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. Thank you for having me. Yeah. Thanks madeline. So we'd like to start by having you introduce yourself to our listeners and tell them a little bit about your background and your current role for the city of Oslo long as you said, but I miss Madeline as soon as I crossing the border, muddy bothe-, my educational background as by complicated ago too, much degree and one in social science education, then Metron journalists have extended studies in innovation and in leadership and for the call six years of working for the fifth year. Also started working with communication the innovation. Digitalization wave with hitting made to do more of the cost two years of been head of. Strategy of innovation and digital -sation. And also, and I'm currently working for the department of health wasn't great. Well, I know that you'll be presenting at the upcoming world government show, which is cure in Washington DC on June twenty four th through twenty sixth and for those who aren't able to attend or can't make it or maybe for those who are planning attending. And would like a little preview because this podcast will be up for the event is available. Unless those of you who are listening to this podcast much later afterwards. Maybe can give us a little quick recap. And preview of what you're going to be speaking about at the air world government event. Absolutely haven't planted. All details yet, my faith and fly changes. But the court of me is going to be to thing. One thing is having a strategic approach to and of the other emerging technologies 'cause I can see from my point of view that there is often to way of approaching a I in the public sector either kind of still and hope for the best approach Austin because there is a lack of knowledge. Age or fear of making the steak which leads to where veterans doing Muffin and just sit and way while the other part is more like Optimus, and they tend to buy tech for the take effect like where can we apply a which isn't necessarily the best approach either? So what I'm trying to do as start with what is actually our challenges than our needs. And then I is a tool for us to actually get to that goal. It's not ago it so that's going to be one of my main focuses, and then another main concern for us in the public sector, obviously that were becoming more and more people on as IRS more of us are in need of public services. The group of elderly people are growing though, and we all see increasing obesity, decreasing civic fee levels and more mental health issues, which obviously puts an extra pressure on us in the public sector, and this is Xtra visible among young. Citizens, unfortunately, so the court challenges housework more preventive and avoid or postpone at least the need for Terron how and how secure quality services without having to employ more people because we know we aren't going to be enough people to actually provide those services and belong run. So for me, a I can be used as a personal. Notre if you like or guide for our citizens for them to make better choices. So they can avoid the need of public healthcare. Yeah. Those are soon to be the two main focuses great, those are some great use cases. So can you share with us specifically some examples that the city of slow is currently working on or that you'd like to do in the coming years exploring different ways that AI machine learning and cognitive technologies can help the citizens and also help moved you guys towards becoming a connected smart city. Lot of initiative going on already, and obviously the more in the pipeline would been most like done by now is always enough to groundbreaking, but it's the use of RPI who off the my thorough back office processes, which obviously Susan's necessarily visible to our thickness in with the free a lot of resources to actually meet the safety since needs Becher. So that's one of the first thing we started doing. And then obviously something that's very common in a lot of fields. Now, the you so Chapa that's been tried in several different sales. We hope you're enjoying this podcast and sorry for the brief interruption cotton Alaska, not only produces the podcast that you're listening to right now. But we also generate research and advisory to help companies make sense of AI cognitive technologies. We also run the most authoritative vendor neutral AM machine learning training and certification on the market. If you looking to make a reality for your organization our three day. Lyrica training is for you. If you're interested in attending, you can find pricing and registration on our website at cognreznick dot com. We'll also provide a link in the show notes, we've met many of our podcast listeners in our classes. And we hope that we'll see you there as well. Now back to the podcast. Different fields. We've in our organization the borough that I used to work for earlier developed one for our child health clinic, which is on the hard domain to enter because health services are complicated. Their lot of personal issues that are to be dealt with. But we want to try that because we felt that if we can succeed on building a check for this main then it's going to be possible for a lot of other with well. So this would help new moms and dads to get answers to all the questions you have when you've just had a newborn without having to get Joel appointments or wait in line for a phone call, and we also saw a lot of them rents who Google or other search engines and off for health and the quality of the answer. But they go wouldn't necessarily the best though in cooperation with our citizens. We developed checkbook to provide them with the answers that they actually were looking for. And public health nurses are resource. So we need to densify and develop services that great value to our citizens without actually needing more employees that was success in the sense of the symptom of this the nurses working on it. And they felt the checkbook today actually provide good answers after a while. Because you know, there's a lot of trading data needed though, it has been pretty funny alters to begin with. But now the ready to gala and work further on that one. It's fifteen boroughs in also, and this was done in one borough, and we need to be able to have some short of central element that can actually operate and roam the service across our fifty about the next level from Beth, particular example, and then we've also started approaching machine learning on a large scale rave, obviously have enormous amounts of eighth. In our system, but it's been hard to actually do them together and make sense of all things the reactionary know about his in. So one of the good examples on how review a waiver of the large data sets from our immigration and social welfare systems to detect what courses or type of teeth and program that are most beneficial in order to get immigrants into work and to become an integrated part of the scientists quickly possible that has given us some really valuable insights that we couldn't have go without the use of machine learning, and one of my favorite examples is actually mapping pro much which is an new in voice name, actually. But it means nothing automated decision support. And why we come across back experiments was that when we get explications from our citizens needing health services. They actually apply for surveys, and they need to know quite a bit about the survey. Services we provide. And when they send in the -plication, we don't actually get to know much about our citizens that we would like we wanted to try and see could we make muffing through that actually provide a more holistic profile of our citizens and gave us the veteran the founding of not only what they need. But also will they're good. They're their ability, and what's important to them to actually manage and by that as I said more holistic approach and then collaborative a more like collaborative way of looking at what services could actually be beneficial for the person. And when we did that and the I if behrman with thirty two very small gay, we went out to five hundred sixty percents off flow and did this nothing of citizens that already had services from us. And it turned out the twenty percents of our citizens Gulf different services when we met them with this approach instead of just telling them to apply for particular. And that's told that by guessing large amounts of data and actually linking them together. We could get at your own service than we have been able to do before. So by now, this is developed like the next game through looking at more services more questions than answers. And obviously more ways of linking all these dates together to be able to detect what can we do at an early stage. What kind of services can we provide them they will be more preventive, and hopefully, they won't need Beth many services in the long run. And also we have a lot of low Gail services like walking groups or cafes where you can meet other people which aren't tree for sickness, but it's hard to reach out to the right people with that kind of information, though, we tend to just put a poster on a wall at any office or mall somewhere. And we hope that the right people see it. But by actually getting to know our. Inspector we can kind of direct marketing and actually provide them with the information. They need that actually suits their needs and what's important to them. So that's been a really really exciting way of approaching healthcare services in a different way. And also, we hope to be able to link the needs of different users together, though, maybe we can be more of a platform that actually matches the one that needs help with cooking and the one that actually loves cooking, but need someone to spend time with or be social with and instead of just giving out health services. We can connect people and be a platform service in a much better way. These are really great use cases for artificial intelligence machine learning in the ranger cognitive technologies. And as we track all, the various different use cases. Interesting because we think about these patterns, and these are really great common patterns, even for those people who are listening to this podcast who may not necessarily be focused and governor. Or unhealth any of these sorts of things these applications are clearly very consistent with the things that people are hearing, and he did mention some things around cognitive automation and process automation. And there has been some thought some people have some concerns sometimes over the use of some of these technologies that are being used to automate, and particularly don't some people have some concern about the role that plays in terms of labor in the future of jobs and employment. So can you give us some insight at least, maybe what you're seeing? Or maybe your thoughts about how AI AME impact jobs and employment within health or were broadly within Norway the environment. And on the technology will make a difference. They will be naive to think something else that I think that they I make the term lifelong learning even more relevant is I don't believe that we will see massive amounts of people losing jobs, but they will lose their talk. And we face going to be a need for new jobs like faith, the scientists in AI, trainers and programmers and so on, but we'll also be need for more Duman, contacts and domain knowledge to actually understand what services that needs to be developed, and provided and we will need a different approach to education when all these new emerging technologies come across. So I think that there will be a lot of new jobs created that will provide new -tunities, but obviously we need to learn how to change in a much more rapid way than we've done before Reno that the needs of jobs is insane thing as long as an people on earth. And I know. Here in Norway hundred years ago, fifty percents with working in agriculture. And now he's only two percents but hundred years ago who could foresee the farmers children would be personal trainers in hairdressers in social workers. So I think it's about of the changing the different pace, but about how we approach it. And when I thought the people I liked the the word Munnich is either you manage as in coping or just like getting through something or you actually take charge. I think we're in a position now when we can take charge and actually prepare though for the changes in work life that we know it's going to come. And to me knowledge is gonna be away that talk about data of the new oil to me knowledge in you are left with Garth resource. And we will never have enough of that. So I don't think that there will be lack of opportunity is just about your willingness to actually change and do something else that you didn't for the law. Ten years. Yeah. Good answer. Now. It's interesting projects that you mentioned earlier that's a wide range of different kinds of projects from the conversational assistance to the cognitive automation to the hyper senilisation to the ability to provide personal advice and guidance and promotions and marketing and all sorts of stuff. What are you seeing sort of like your biggest challenges, especially thinking about data, you know? So how are you making these projects happen? How are you assembling the team that you need to assemble it give us a little insight into how are you making some of these projects work quote? Thank the one of our biggest challenges his we've been gathering data for years and years, but it's not structured in a way that makes it easy to actually combine them in the way that we would like to obviously legislation also have it boundaries. And how we can actually combine these eighth and use them for something else than they were originally meant to be used for. So just gathering the structuring labeling it in the right way that obviously a massive. Challenge and something that we're working on of the day today and Beth provide the need for that. They obviously also is reflected in the need of labor and working in the public sector. This isn't the place that all the best tech people necessarily want to work for they tend to go to more private companies, which betwee are paying Becher and tend to have larger communities of people that actually work together. You get some kind of society would like minded people forgetting tech people on board is also a challenge would we are looking to have it's the domain knowledge, which I think is even more important by now with have developed far that a lot of people can actually learn how to program and how to work around the thing in knock that long amount of time, but actually knowing how people were how you can provide proper healthcare how he can work. On education. What actually worked in the hotel welfare system, Beth knowledge that actually takes years to develop? And luckily, we have that though, it's all about putting these people together our normal workers that's been working here for years and years, they have invaluable knowledge Vado, necessarily, the the opportunity basically their needs and they seen what needs to be them. But putting them together with the people beside people that were magic happened. But we all about getting the right people together is the knowledge there. It's just teeming. Yeah. It's always interesting to see how different organizations different cities countries are going about their approach to this. So it sounds like you guys are really thinking about this and already implementing some of these technologies, which is great. So as a final note, what do you believe the future of a is in general and its applications to corporations governments and beyond while already is affecting our lives in a big way. And we don't tend to think about that. We thrown herself with the use of third gen James and booking systems route planners and just the fact that when you get a message on your phone from a friend thing, should we meet Friday five it actually suggests to put it straight into your calendar. And if it actually has where you're going few days now gonna tell you that this is the shortest way to get there. And we just take the things for granted. 'cause they just pop off without even noticing and Austria few week. We it's like they've always been there when it comes to actually apply. A or other emerging technology at your workplace. It just seems as if the obstacle is a tire. So I always try to make it more accessible by using the today acceptable. And I think that even though we're used to a in our daily lives. Now, we're going to see it in a much larger scale and the corporate level of well and one thing is in the public sector both for health care and more personalized education in the possibl. To actually completely this real the education system. And also when he comes construction planning and transportation, it's endless possibility. And then over the all the administers tall doing the right thing, you can than enlisted providing fishing support all that is pliable across all kind of services, and even if it's private or public corporate. So the thing is is to as every other too. And I think that the future depends highly on the ones actually using it. And I really hope Burgoyne focus on a for good. And how it can actually be utilized to provide better services across all field. But we need to be prepared for those who might have a different approach, and it's important to actually have that in the back of our minds as well that this can be used in different ways than we need to make sure that the safety and security around a I am base kind of -nology is high. It's possible. Really good. Insights, I know that we definitely are going to continue to look at how other organizations and agencies and companies and governments are putting into practice. Not just from use case perspective. But also to see how the regulatory environment changes as a very globally connected world. What happens in one corner of the world impacts the other? So definitely keep a very close eye on then we would love to continue this conversation. So Matty, really, thank you so much for joining us on this podcast. Really? Appreciate you participating in sharing your insight. Thanks so much for joining us today and listeners as always will post any articles and concepts discussed in the show notes. Thanks for listening. And we'll catch you at the next podcast. And that's a wrap for today to download this episode. Find additional episodes transcripts subscribe to our newsletter and more, please. Visit our website at cognreznick dot com. Join the discussion in between podcasts on the today. Facebook group and make sure to join the cognitive Facebook page for updates on this and future podcasts. Also subscribe to our podcast in itunes, Google play. Elsewhere to get notified a future episodes to support this podcast and get your message out to our listeners. Then become a sponsor, we offer significant benefits for today sponsors, including promotion, the podcast and landing page and opportunity to be guest on the today show for more information on sponsorship, visit the cog deliver website and click on the podcast link this sound recording. And its contents is copyright by cog. Melissa all rights reserved music by Matsu Graabo's as always thanks for listening to a today ammo catch at the next podcast.

Beth Norway Oslo Becher Google madeline department of health Facebook cog Milica Alaska Madeleine Stowe Washington Kathleen mulch Reno Ronald
Requests For Startups: Marketing Tech with Ashu Garg

Venture Stories

31:27 min | 2 years ago

Requests For Startups: Marketing Tech with Ashu Garg

"Hey, everybody. It's torbert co-founder partner. Philip global eight network driven venture firm, and this is metro stories a podcast covering topics. G tech business with world leading experts. Everybody. Welcome to another episode of Becher stories by Bilas global. I'm here today with various special guests ASU guard general partner foundation, capital offshoot. Welcome to the podcast. Hey, harry. Thank you very much from having the best. I'm trying to be awesome. We're excited to get deep into Marceca here. What he I give a bit of background owners of at how you got into Martin from first place. Absolute third. I bet you know, this is my left with urine venture in over. The course of this time frame I made investments in roughly a dozen market companies a little talk through. But for the reason, I think fifteen years of writing robbery roles starting we'd union. So as my career in marketing and you around. Marketing technology for offering. My shepherding. Joe actually running ads business if ISIS off in that was really my point of entry into the broader world will digitize awesome. An intriguing fifteen you wrote a post the decade of CMO, I'll shoot can you unpack the main points that you made in that post in wet leading right at the first place. If you look back in history. Every pointed be being an executive that is becomes the key constantly area to the seal. A it's really a function of what's going on in the environment around you. So if you go back in the eighties and early nineties, it was created to see a fall, you know, if you've heard of the two thousand is we really saw salesman takes center stage and then in authorization decade guy ranger roller. They grow, consolidate IT infrastructure. I five years CMO's really started take more critical role at a C suite. I've become the default go-to person for CEO for thinking about digital transformation. Editions eagles. They roll. Let is integrating naked your ingenuity while they're responsible for social media, which cut across sale. Marketing in customers in nature social media, really made CMO's Duckie executive, it's user increasingly looking. So that's a big. So that's a big part of the thesis. I think Secondly, look at the impact of technology and marketing. Easy transfer marketing in the last decade, more than half of all marketing spending is mind digital media. In addition marketers imprisoned, the using tools and technology in a way that perhaps before Minnesota research by Narva suggests by the end of this decade marketers will would be spending more money -nology CIO's, let's zoom out a little bit. And when you talk about the tech landscape, can you make a bit of a market map as to invested twelve companies? What are the different sub sectors within a mar tech? How do you slice out that world would are what are examples may was big company Indian each for example, Martin who rises over the things that marketers use and things are proponents is Martin reviews to deliver or communicate the value of the products and offerings. The industrials Muslim former consumers often prices as well. Traditionally Mark Marceca one point zero Marquette one zero mostly considered tools the resources digitize. Most of those tools were in fact. Connecting any even buy or sell it media in often, heck or the product. So what was it? The media in where people were out network in those people v one of Arctic V to Artem really murders as. Hoste investigated enough that they wanted to make the transition from buying meter by software and software to and yours. You know, you're still marketing tools jewelry used to manage is to create media is managing up is to manage the process of vines, optimize media, proud media. And then emoluments. Raise. Emolument. Non-euro Martic tools that are the worst it help you manage your relationship with customers that are outside Needham. It could be. You know, every every large hugging or. Facebook page eight burner handles and tools. The kitchen, and we didn't have ever dive into your hundred of south sub segments within Marquette or today. I go to say if you stay away from each other. How do you differentiate recommended you differentiate between our tech ad tech house that a ball overtime, so fundamental differences hoping? Hoping. Here's companies have focused on setting media thing. So they have to. So they have to ninety behind Borchert five media or lawyers were marketing tech companies are seven software in sovereign. Maybe used to buy the product you're buying Soffer. Secondly, Joe lesser extent in the world of mar tech. The big theme in Alaska fire nervous, really being matting identity exists on mobile device as existent Email with cooking out which existed the role of advertising if you feel now just far tech in general. Judge a little bit. But can you talk about how the field is a bald since let's say two thousand orders, Vince over the mega trends and will resume their earliest big successes, and I was at a ball overtime. So immoral novelty reeling him of our when companies like Netflix, which is whatever we're fully story to build tools to manage not to my pricing in house. We were early masters at accompanying responses, the actions, helping incubators sponsors team are working necklace because we Netflixing nesting eight hundred money aging efforts to build Email management tools in house, and that kind of sense for Netflix might give that instead. I got imagined that every company would want to be able to own schools to manage Email. Who won a third party vendor and responsive scheme on devil. Tiger Email Manji was further categories a marketing jewel do saw. A whole generation of companies uniform causing. We other companies hundreds of companies frankly in the Email marketing or advertising devolve digital advertising news initially mostly display advertising in two thousand bus third stake off there's a whole companies merge. The writing fools in on these. Demand digital advertising if you fast forward to rounded with thousands eight hundred freaking a social media took off you saw wave companies sprinkler sweet are signing samples. They've started really get behind helping you manager media presence initially Wrigley. Our large advertising model he was your organic you earned media. Media. Overtime. The woods their business you from the same energy searcher this leg flying into in the social world. Some of the ways of the donkeys. The why? The what time you're you knew. You're behavior. Everytime. Humor training that consumer training entire you. Wait or marketing. Examined for my career as being David. So when I first joint-venture to douse eight this shift from traditional linear TV online video was just started. I saw Fayed I say if I five four ten years roughly now mainstream humor Bill all watching hunting on streaming device. Whether it's you know over the palm. A wiser. Zero vote. I did know if you'd be watching streaming as watching it on your TV and so. And so. Oh, cool hosted investments behind that crane. I messed it up company freewheel doing act surfing for publishers who were inserting media leads into your defeating context. I then invest that company. Get very resulted to Comcast for four hundred million dollars. I think vested in Q mobile, helping large advertisers by video advertising company devours, well, very taller Gobi after the other for several years. I messed up. Right. The underlying infrastructure associated streaming video game companies remain anywhere close to a hundred billion in revenues misdealing nicely. I invest in a company called to the key with action ad network or game consoles initially in over time. All intervene expert Medflies in that is during live Razi is low. So get all came out wanted frame, the notes from traditional TV to go online video and somebody investor entrepreneurial marketing tax you have. You're waiting given riot. Can we unpack it unless you don't fifteen years? You mentioned that one trend. What are some other big trends that have happened? The last fifteen years that have spawned other market near unicorns space and then get at the future tracks. The most recent consumer trade as far one wave of our. Companies is mall is increasing mobile phones have been around for a long time. Smartphones have been around for twelve years to this point only in the last five years. The jury starting to see invoice adoption of. Channel by marketers. And so you see companies live the lyrics in my own portfolio. Also, you know, raise in an ownership in many other all of them were doing wells writing the the mobile wave in some ways early. You don't want them urgently survive about it is is the lag between the euro wave. At least you often by the prices. So a large presentative rights still don't have mobile apps and our Gilo Cameron womanizer important candidate in their businesses with extricating in mobile wave with dates from bitter narc companies in the next handful of yours if you fast forward to the next major Zimmer frames author accommodate I wanted to ease data privacy gator medics consumers want being controlled they're they wanna know how it is in use. In consumer demand for it rigor transparency around. How dare be being used is starting on a whole new generation of companies in the morning aggregrate if Mugabe into the future futures are. I e ER VR starker take off on a new generation of case. But if you know heritage are the urban around the corner from view years now. What about blockchain and crypto? Because why? So I I. From an infrastructure standpoint. When the parts about the architect landscape as being the last new kitchen of the supply chain in citizens, Mikey meeting all their number layers handle either the ad or their data or the purchase order retrieving. The publisher on one end any Incan who've the ad. Sometimes one you. A dozen different. Art is involved identify in the opportunity for lodging in the nineties. More Ronay Easter provide transparency visibility through that. As Emily starting to see companies in that space exhilarated because in the IT consists scale is. Serious as using humor. Your piece in the day. As a huge Jabber commutable on expecations over attack. So why seeing anyone April golfie too early for that, you know, and there's a gap that the opportunity, and would you think of the first use cases, or I I company that could take off that use chanted Marceca face. Company's naming as specific company I being. Any is there finding use case and may sets China battering? China's various afire saying your monitor players be survived. Shane aren't necessarily motivated provide transparency. There's a lot of side deals. They go on for five fifteen transparency you while is for you. The advertiser as auditor isn't necessarily good for all the meteors Vijay. So I look to start on this area to classrooms. The participated has the pain in the market overdrive shakes. I have to think mostly large advertisers. And so you can allying large advertisers that are wind to forces of biking to play ball. I know radio our today. Going back to your post for a second. You wrote this in two thousand fifteen how would you how you seen the industry of all in the last four years? The actually goes. So they're keeping. I continue to see a slow starts getting on these one of the most over fighters faces there is. I am not. Why? The number of stars. Martin's the second United CAC continued honor city. Why number started to staggering? There's a lot of people taking a piece Leland likes pros. And you talk to large marketers of large companies, they still people aiders insufficient cooling technology infrastructure for them being able to digital scale continues to be events and using cloud victory in. That's why. Together. Has Fabri anymore. Sector where concert drumbeat? Of course. We only. Eighteen months or so we've seen cross we've seen it around mode acquisition by Salesforce lorries layers seen. I know Mark embarked Fleiss, I by vista. In a second time, eighteen months or Nova change your whole. Do you know? Or Martin this life and get Gerber who was this leave Arbor. So lots of very very hilly United Nations spider some of the the Starbucks on. The Fleming metrics sign they'll be puzzles, these sewing star in the us issue for months definitely acting lottery. Sees myself included have higher bar for what they will find. Because neither meet you are is over the world needs. You mentioned VC's at a bitter history. In terms of how we seize viewed tech storage safely, you did a category that disease have been excited about and then down on survived doubt relationship, or is it always a category at using underestimated. Takara afraid relations with Martin tape. It won't Rodney eventually Jordan measure. Are. That's just the auditory Idaho. Venture works. So. The first time I started looking at marquee categories from veterans on was can do for aid soon after miners required. A plenty in empire. Played in. I just in broad leaving Lee Myers off time in every scene. So conducting super excited, Omar tech. Multi-billion-euro? And so you see the. Whatever that would be a flurry of interest activity in. In it is. It is. Down. The fact of the better. Genius general are tenures voters interest in finding companies that had advocated or medium business model. I this is moral casino has declined I would actually say here. So you don't hear about I started putting more? Would you have seen come up in the last five seven years is really aware of a staff business Marlon Emaar could accurately accuser. Deserve servers in two thousand eighteen year. There's VC's are. I think he would say, Don our tech in can you summarize? What's the misunderstanding that they have more broadly? Would you try to correct them on or what would their pitch fee? Rely more VC's v should be eager about the category. So I don't necessarily think Borys is your mother category. I think taking Martin they can Nate money has consistently made light by attack read that is readily noisy. Patty, where they arranged a very very hot and somebody vice nervous if more companies is really take a step back and say, why are using your company deserves to just years now. Now. Get your ability and is buried not by five or ten or twenty percent. But by order of magnitude. And so I think the bars are you markup of the day on in fact, very often tell Mark on nerves. You know, if you have a gate sad for me. Idea. Look at allocations. The cool thing Mark is really Martic was killer out from. A lot of the best technical minds. In the hearings base. Margrave party. Would they do is? Your sense of where the white space is where the opportunity is. If you aged running either funds solely focused on on Martin entrepreneurs were asking us. Hey wish you builds companies species. Your view offshoot yourself particular about billing company, the space would are sort of the unique opportunities or white face it using you want more entrepreneurs with what's your requests for startups. Our head in the marketing Donnie landscape down into working or either legal and marketing. I really think overall carriers Marquette for companies under that. The have. His marketers happened opportunity to close the deal. I mean by. To move from being a neighboring technology remains during play a role in. I think technology the workers central rolling in deal. Author of the BBC's here. About your opportunity set or Meiring. Martic dodgy stern the companies. I think there are really Grard are these days. I. I. Even though they're different companies doing marketing relations on shape of ice still your every VO complain about to have a. I even have an integrated view always going on in my business or my aunts. Opportunity will want RG to is. I believe. Rex is a GED are really too often in Europe. Thank you. Your and more. And so providing markers. Infrastructre managed in a way that is combined with regularly combined with. Consumers. Evils marketers to deliver a great customers. Being Arseny market say is the use of Lachine streamline the supply. And so I do using blocks DOT of money by. Early. What are some opportunities? You see that? You think you know, what I use to crowded it started been done or I don't think it's big enough some sort of anti requests for startups things that you don't think is the best time. Although maybe it seems compelling outside. I feel a lot more market company the one that I ring if real real soon. Nagel warriors managing. Or influence a marketing tools in the last four years I've seen these Ginette category. But what I see is. Most is developing a marketing often influence marketing tools in Sturgis business. Ecosystem of inch lords influencers Virginia. Lawn enough in US enough. Product only knowledge in practical. So I'm not that category. One same thing. Darkly me. Argies have been a bigger city and our can be starting to lean more because there's a handful of companies like Tony quadrant. They're starting to take off every inch. None of you for the next year will do this disruptive. So I think it's kind of his own. Title. That are doing tactical level and I received for providing marketing confidence. Which is much more predictive future king. Much just doing the next June Marky, how does startups incumbent comments in the industry where like how another way that is how defensible are these companies really is are there operatives where does not eat their Amazon or Facebook where compete or everything up for grabs had anything about pets -bility? One one of these boulder, China who are taking his CMO's are inheriting Bester read in Nathan terribly bias towards experimenting and trying new this. And so if you have a next thing a Marta. Categories. Awesome to get customers. Tech to be experimentally nature. Register to see so in sales or CFO's seal. Tryout? Flipside. Very technical in their views Mia as against you. Find software in the market place to struggle insurance. And. So what do that that what's really important for from our tech companies to feed your out in order to be durable at longstanding giant companies would of the great companies do the ones that don't specifically our tech? So you going to do when Marceca six I I think the rating the final way to ride in a winning. In a winning. You're ranger changing. Gator Email out. Advertising, social media Rockley online video examples in that. So finally righted the second thing, I think is market of knees. Take the do well team. They're able to rain technical shocks together. Adiba Guinnea walkers and how they are BUSTER vase because martyrs aren't youth divine technologies. So. Celtic on them. Weiser for marketers, which is. The Zuma companies. Most excessive architect out. Reading the dirty successful Marquette companies. I think you have to be in it for the long haul. Officiency? I go go. Go home overnight. You have some cycles economic recessions doing the Satcher and so. The law. What other advice you yourself? You d Mark tech companies, for example, when you find entrepreneurs who built companies freebies sectors, and then come to Demark check will what was they might may not at dissipate right away or Sivas obvious for whenever Martin I vice one is you really make sure you're not selling in feature or even apart. You've gotta you garden. Clear doing is trans for him enough. There is an opera company in second. It's really or to be clear about who knew buyer is within the marketing organization Moratti organizations, typically diffuse structures, not marketing organizations staying. Getting clarity about your ICP, your usual customer. Profiling persona is really Artie are Mark with that the thirty nights. I also people's marketers. Electrify base fuse as against the best technology. And so by Agassi ignoring warranted performance, or either us totally. Thank you so much for coming gases been great episodes, and we wanna learn more about about your work at foundation capital. Where can you point them to kill? Just call one eight hundred. You know, our unit all the we're not funny. And it's great highly recommend reading the decades. Demoines great other stuff punish capital as out at you yourself have a podcast as well. Beat a CEO. Dubai. My guests really focuses on enterprise farmers across industries in indefinitely, art market honor. Tell me all the time department useful. So much. If you're an early stage entrepreneur, we'd love to hear from you. Please hit us up at village. Global dot BC slash at work catalyst.

Martin tape Mark Marceca China CEO Facebook us publisher ASU Netflix robbery executive Marceca Philip Joe harry salesman Becher torbert
The Chris and Joe Show: Breaking down a 32-31 win over the Bucs

Big Blue View

33:08 min | 1 year ago

The Chris and Joe Show: Breaking down a 32-31 win over the Bucs

"Are you troubled by strange hockey trades in the middle of the night do you experienced feelings of dread about NATO agency have you or your family ever seen it. New York rylander scheme if the answer is yes. Don't wait another minute. Pick up your mobile device and subscribe to Lighthouse Hockey podcasts from espy nation. Today are courteous and efficient hosts are ready to serve all of your islander needs and worries lighthouse hockey podcasts for New York Islanders fans and you're listening to the Chris Joe Show presented by SP nation and Biglou view. I'm Joe deleo joined by Chris. Flow and today we are giving you are breakdown in our analysis after taking a look at the tape from the New York giants victory over the Tampa Bay buccaneers a victory that was in last second fashion thirty two to thirty one over Tampa Bay doing missed field goal from rookie kicker for the box and we're going to take a look at that later but there's a lot for us to cover a lot of tape that we had to take a look at and breakdown to notice some pretty important things that need to be acknowledged from the game positive positives and negatives from both sides so the very first positive Chris. We're GONNA go right on into this thing and start talking about how this game looked and the very first positive might have been the fact that Daniel Jones Mobility added an extra element to this offense yesterday he was able to create plays extend plays and we also saw in that final play on offense in which he was able to score a rushing touchdown. Would you agree that his mobility is now a asset for this offense going forward yeah definitely there were probably about five plays so that manning just could not have made maybe four holes in the buccaneer defense on that last rushing touchdown evil. I might have been able to make work but his touchdown on that was either an Rpo zone read for the giants first touchdown email. I could never have pulled that off there. Were a few instances senses where the buccaneers missed sacks and Jones was able to execute scrambled drill and throw on the run in life probably couldn't have done that and then there was that third down conversion where Jones was actually able to break defenders angle with his speed. That's that's something I would never have been able to do even when he was twenty two years old so that is a very good weapon for the giants to have on offense certainly a very very good weapon. It's kind of funny when you look at Daniel Jones and even at the mining all that he does not look like this Uber Athletic Guy but he really showed that in full all display shrugging off sacks one particular play in the second quarter and we really saw what he's capable of as far as being a complete player player he proved that he's you know a big body big strong athletic kid that he's not going to be just wrapped up in thrown down very easily those types the things are very very important for a young quarterback that is still learning his presence in the pocket and where he needs to be where the pressures coming from because sometimes maybe he doesn't notice those things it's. GonNa take a lot for him to come down but overall I it it really added an extra element said he needed to be accounted for in those situations where everyone drops ops backing coverage and he was able to run right up on the middle on that final offensive play and score the touchdown on fourth down. Maybe going forward. We'll see some defenses that are a bit more desperate to stop him if he's going to keep doing things like that by putting a quarterback spy on him which will ultimately alleviate pressure from oncoming pass pass rushers and also opened some things up in the passing game because there will be one less guy covering for him. I I'm not sure we could exactly say. Defenses is will be desperate to stop it but it's something they will at least need to account for and that will slow down the pass rush. which we we saw was an issue this week we was initially last week having something like that where the defense is going to have to be aware of the fact that the quarterback can pull the ball down and run actual pickup yards not just kind of Galumph? I think a a description for the way L. Iran up towards the line of scrimmage in multiple ground when it was time to slide that's something defenses are going to have to be aware era and they're going to have to be more disciplined in their Russia's which should help the giants offense desperate might not have been the best word that I was trying to think of their but ultimately it does make things more multidimensional for this offense. was another thing that you notice. Chris is a major positive causative for the performance of this team on the offensive side of the ball. I called out the plenty of the giants receivers in our quick takes and going back and rewatching. I have to give them mm some major. Kudos for how they played sterling shepard inevitably in particular but also the rookie dairy Slayton He showed off his speed. The heat stretched the field. I think that speed contributed to anger shepherd being wide open on that last drive because ran down the field. He ran on the scene that pulled two defenders in the deep quarter. one of whom shoot have picked up sterling shepard. Neither neither more there. There wasn't anyone within ten yards of shepherd when he got the ball that's great for the offense but then just the plight of shepherd effort in Ingram on their own. We already knew these. Guys are really good receiving weapons. They've got good savvy route running the weren't quite on average as wide open as I thought they were watching the game live but that was probably because of how well they ran ran their routes and positioned their bodies with relation to where the ball was going to be that there was never going to be a defender right on on top of the ball. The defenders were always going to have to try to play through the receiver to get always going to have to try to play through the receiver to have a chance of making a play on the ball which is just exactly what you want those guys to do and then after the catch they showed what they could do especially. Evan Ingram with that just I explosive athleticism he has we saw that at the beginning of each half the first plane of the first half the first play of the second half were Ingraham catching the ball in space turning up field turning on the jets and making a boo gain and especially with saquon Barkley out the giants needed that they need that big play. Threat Jones is going to get all the headlines but I need to show those guys because there were huge huge in this game. The giants don't win without them with them healthy and on the field as much as possible. It's really going to make things a lot easier for Daniel Jones but I think another guy that we saw could performance formed from that is a little bit underrated could have had an even better one was Daria Slayton who really saw his first major action in yesterday's game and and they were running a lot of go routes a lot of deep routes to him. There were a couple chances for him to make some really big splash plays but it just went right through his fingertips tips. If he extended a little bit more he might have been able to make those plays over although a pretty decent performance three receptions for eighty two yards in ultimately that was what their goal was when they drafted Kim was to get a a fast long receiver that can be used as a deep threat they haven't really been able to develop much chemistry because dirty slate and has been injured in not not really in practice and getting into that rhythm with Daniel Jones but now that he's back hopefully some more reps some more time together. Some more work will create create and develop a situation where on first or second down that can catch defense not paying attention in hit the ball deep down the middle of the field or down the sideline four twenty five to thirty yard gain and use him as that big play threat that he could potentially be yet definitely and I gotta say I was impressed by Slayton's hand strength rank. There were a couple of players when he caught the ball in the defender was right on him and you saw the defender kind of hack the ball to try to knock it loose and if did not budge at all it didn't wiggle to that was almost more that was almost as impressive as his speed down the field just ability to hang onto the ball with somebody actively trying to rip it loose another point that we had and we both agreed was a bit of a positive and a negative so the positive aspect of this was that Daniel Jones at very good pocket presence at times acknowledges in a quick take show that he seemed very very poised he was very calm when dealing with pressure and almost acted oblivious as to it at times but that obviously created some negatives to be acknowledged because he was also not noticing the pressure in some situations which caused him to fumble the volunteers situations and also some other questionable plays that could have been called fumbles because his arm was coming forward also resulted in some saks so that like. I said the positive take that was that he wasn't getting flustered. He wasn't freaking out he wasn't forcing the ball and throwing interceptions or taking crazy Saxon accent in in deep yardage but we both need to acknowledge the negative aspect of it which is he needs to get some more experience and learn what to do in situations solutions where he can feel somebody breathing down the back of his neck definitely and yeah. I like the fact that you use the word oblivious because at sometimes that's Swat. It seemed like it seemed like he didn't wasn't similar pocket presence as pocket oblivious nece where he didn't really seem to recognize that there were defenders in the Backfield backfield at all and like I said last night we definitely don't want him starting to hear footsteps in the Backfield and panicking or rushing through his process forcing the ball doing things like that but you still have to be aware of your surroundings as a quarterback and just know wear the pass rushers are so you can either move away from them or protect the ball if you're not going to be able to throw it away or get away from them. The good thing about this one negative is that it's a skill that can be developed. It's something that very few rookies can really have a sense for. It's almost better better that he's not overly willing to just talk in run because we've seen rookies that were are far more mobile. Daniel Jones like Robert Griffen third who do that often and and he ended up having an injury riddled career and is currently a backup a Lamar Jackson did a ton in his first year with the Ravens and now he's starting to develop more into a good pocket passer not just as a as a mobile quarterback so those things are going to develop. They're going to improve over time. It really just takes reps and understanding ending in in feeling that pressure and knowing what to do in that pressure comes if it's just throwing the ball out of bounds and getting the ball away so be it. It's GONNA take time. Just need to be a little patient here. Luckily it's not some type of trait that it's something that he could have been born with something like arm strength or or any any of those circumstances chances where if he doesn't have it and he's not showing it then. You need to be concerned but he can develop. He can improve he can get better at those things so the other negative that we noticed. Chris was one that really made us cringe pretty much the whole game and I'm sure it had giants fans cringing as well was the performance of nate solder against Shack Barrett who who gave up four sacks in a number of quarterback pressures and hits and we've seen this time and time again nate solder not being able to to block and play against Finesse and I'm fast pass rushers. I mentioned this in our talking before we went on air. There were times nate solar looked like Chad Wheeler and that is not what you want to see especially from a guy who went out in made at the time the highest paid offensive Lineman in the NFL the guy who's He's supposed to be the the leader the anchor of your offensive line to really don't want him only able to play against average or worse suppliers. You don't want him giving pressure getting beaten like drom by athletic or technically savvy pass rushers and especially this year because the giants face a lot of good pass rusher this year everybody in the NFC east has good pass rushers. Most of the out of division games giants have feature good pass rushers. The giants would up against a good defensive line in Buffalo. They went up against winced a good defensive line in Tampa. It's going to come up again and again. That's something solar in particular that the offensive line in general needs to really work on lockdown because it wasn't just Shaq Barrett against consoler veto via was was just tossing guys out of the way and collapsing the pocket. Carl NASA was kind of having his way against Mike remers that is I think a concern for the giants right now. They really had a toll task in blocking a very underrated and talented defensive line. It's not not easy to play against Vida who is well over three hundred and fifty pounds and he looked like a behemoth on on the field. Yesterday he looked way bigger than I really really thought he was but if you go back and look at every single passing play from yesterday's game you really do notice that nate solder didn't didn't really have any good reps against Shack Barrett. It looked like he was obviously struggling in pretty much every single situation he was very slow in his initial said it looked like check. Barrett was beating him off the jump and there was actually one particular plan. I don't know if you remember where he was almost offsides he was he was beating the jump so much so you very slow in getting into a set. His Punch was very very high in shack. It was was beating him with very good pad level overall just very very high. He looked like he was leaning back a ton in some situations but the other thing that you really don't want to see from a veteran offensive tackle was that he was lunging. He was pushing all of his momentum forward on passing plays in his kick set and that just allowed a quick in widely Shaq Barrett to redirect very quickly and just go the opposite direction of wherever he was lunging. If you're going against a slower bigger heavier pass rusher. Maybe you can get away with that but when you have someone fast that has better pad level than you that is quicker than new has better feet the new. He's GonNa win nine times out of ten yeah. Those are the cases where an offensive lineman needs to be able to be balanced use his length advantage and just kind of try to fend him off and ride him around the pocket and not basically panic in lunch. If Offensive Lineman is lunging heaves beaten. That's just all there is to it in the question is whether or not the pass rushers. GonNa get to the quarterback or not before the baskets off hate to see this performance and hopefully he can build upon that and make some improvements another talented defensive line that they're going to be facing next week for the Washington Shington Redskins so we're going to take a look at our defensive performance for the giants but before we do that we're going to take a quick commercial break. Hey I'm Spencer Hall. I'm Holly Anderson. I'm Ryan Nanny. I'm Jason Kirk and we're the host of the shutdown full cast your avengers of college football podcast it says in the script onto riff on what that means and basically what is already spoiled every Tuesday we talk about everything from cooking disasters to pro wrestling too unfashionable pants worn middle school. We'll also talk about college football every now and then like mascot fights announcers fleeing the booth early and unfashionable pants that coaches where now if you want to take state college football exactly as seriously as it should be taken subscribe for free on Apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast APP. Hey I'm Neil I patel editor in chief of the verge of the verge cast revamping the virtuous more and more lately and coming out twice a week sometimes even a third bonus ups owed on Tuesdays and talked to influential people around around the world of tech like Microsoft Founder Bill Gates and other tech exactly founder of lime scooters the CEO of beyond me. 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We'll see there defensively this game yesterday featured a number of positives and negatives there were times that you and I are both very content with their performance but there are also some things that obviously needs to be worked on that are reoccurring and things that just continue to come up time and time again so first off though for the positive and we said this in the quick show but we're going to go a little bit deeper now that we got to look at the tape was that they were able to generate sacks but more importantly they were able to do so with only four rushers. They didn't need to send an all out blitz and be desperately selling out in those situations to generate pressure. They were sending four guys guys like Marcus. Golden were able to get Saxon and even Dexter Lawrence was able to get in the box score with a pressure on Jameis Winston and wrapping up him up and taking him down so those things are very positive in building on going forward yes and thing I noticed is. They were sending four rushers but they weren't. They weren't rushing just straight up at least not all the time they were kind of mixing zone pressures in. I think the giants I sack act they had Lorenzo Carter lining up as an edge as you would expect but then had him drop back into zone while another rusher came up. I believe it was allegorical tree on on outside Russia can kingdom unblocked that will really help your pass rush when you can create confusion on the offensive line get pass rushers unblocked into the backfield backfield and then being able to get the pressure with four that will help out the secondary by just having more bodies to cover with almost didn't even help though having less guys rushing the quarterback because the amount of yards that they gave up. We're going to get to that when we talk about her negatives. Because there's one very daunting one that needs to be acknowledged going Amac to discussing the the pass rushing situation. They were also doing a very good job in you. You kind of alluded to it. Stunts with showing different looks as far as WHO's. He's GonNa be rushing and then dropping one of those guys in in in pass coverage and bringing a different guy that was on the opposite field or maybe in the middle of the field with the middle linebacker are they were able to disguise some things and I think that did create some confusion. It's what we were hoping to see from James. Becher in his ability to be creative scheme up some things hopefully they can keep improving and maybe markets golden could be the featured pass rusher as he over the past two games as generated some. I'm serious sacks the other positive that we noticed from this game was that they were more effective when they chose to go to some press tight man situations nations in the second half on like what they were doing in the first half and I'm not sure why it took them two and a half games to really get to to this because we knew watching his college state that the Andre Baker was a better tight man coverage corner than in in off man or zone coverage and we've always known that ginormous Jenkins is better in pressman than in off man or war against zone at the beginning of the game when the giants could barely even slow Tampa Bay down every time you looked at the defense fence they were playing some kind of soft coverage and Tampa was just completely taking advantage of those free releases. They were either picking up nice manageable gains in space or the receivers were just running past Jenkins and weaker. Those guys are terribly athletic. Corners in Judkins is at least at the time of the draft several years ago. Jenkins was a little a bit more athletic than Baker but neither one is Patrick Peterson or Denzel Ward or or Jalen Ramsey. They're not going to be able to just turn and run with any receiver in the League on doubting like that. They need to disrupt the timing they deemed to be able to disrupt the route and then use their quickness and ball skills to really stick with these guys which is what we saw in the second half and for most of that that it seemed a lot more effective. I it seemed as if Becher was being a little stubborn and he thought that his philosophy of having that off coverage was gonna work eventually and I think he finally just caved and he said to himself. This isn't working. We've got to talented guys that can work in press and we actually started to see that working. you could argue that some of the bucks play calling might have helped in those situations because they were being a little bit more conservative and they were choosing to run the ball a little bit more but regardless they weren't allowing any open place they weren't allowing an offense that seemed to be centered around quick passes and getting the ball to the middle of the field moving the ball downfield that that way it's slow things down it for a good period of time slowed down. Mike Evans in the second half up until that final play on the final drive where he picked picked up a huge chunk play but I think we just did see a more comfort level from the Andre Baker. I don't have the statistics on his performance as far as what he gave up but it didn't seem like we noticed him as much as we did in the first two weeks even if he maybe had some miss assignments that we didn't even notice he at least was performing performing significantly better in his coverage in in in being able to make those place so now as far as negative go and we really had one major one that can be discussed from a number of different levels and it was their lack of ability to cover tight ends. I think it goes a little bit in line with playing off coverage and not pressing is and not covering is very tightly but they struggled significantly over the past few weeks in covering tight ends. That aren't really premier tight ends. OJ Howard you know the the the whole Dallas cowboys tight end. Situation doesn't have any elite guys. Did you see that that issue being a reoccurring one yet definitely seems to be they tried with Djibril peppers. They tried with I. I believe it was created Haley on a tight end. They finally were able to kind of get a tackle on a stop with Michael Thomas at the end of the game but it seemed like no matter what the giants tried they couldn't really contain a tight end and that's in any of the Games. They've played. We saw we've seen them. get killed by Blake Darwin with Dallas Jason who came out of the nursing home to score touchdowns on the giants since Dawson Knox was he wasn't catching the ball but he was beating real peppers and then we saw OJ Howard do it. I'm not sure if they'd have the pieces on on the roster to really address that but it's something they need to look at the tight end is the the it's a difficult match up in the modern. NFL But the area of the field where they're used you have to be able to defend the middle of the field you have to be able to defend the seam and you have to be able to take away those twelve to fifteen the yard receptions because those are just cut punches for a defense gut punches certainly considering. You're giving it up to a guy that isn't really the most athletic player on the field. You would think though that maybe they'd be more willing to use some of the athletic linebackers they have but at the moment there are a little bit thin. Davis left game early. Alec Ogle Tree left the game early who can are considered to be the better coverage linebackers on this team Ryan Conley. The is a little bit more of an old school type thumper. He's not really as ranges some of those other guys. It seemed like in the past when we had Landon Collins he was Zabell to at least slow some guys down occasionally from time to time he would get significantly but he was at least big enough and strong enough to play those guys closely into cover them but would I don't really see why would make sense to have a five foot ten in shorter under two hundred pound safety trying to cover a tight end. It's just not going to end well even if he's staying up to speed with him. He has the height on him or you need to do is throw the wall little bit above him. Whatever tight ends trying to catch the ball and they're gonNA make that play. I pretty much every single time something really needs to be figured out as far as coverage in who needs to be covering those guys in those assignments because whatever at the moment is not working at all the final thing we're going to discuss here though Chris is one that you want to knowledge which was special teams yeah you know and in fact act since I don't know how many of our listeners know but you are a special teams. I you are a long snap or so. I figured I would just set you up on on here and then loose. I think we need to address. The role that special teams played in this game on both sides is the ball because really for the player of the giants receivers deploying of the pass rush play of Daniel Jones. If it weren't for some special teams play and some bad special teams play the giants do not win this Guinea as a special teams enthusiast. I've been trying to hold myself back back from the first two games because I've I've significantly acknowledged in noticed good performances in the first two games but I decided to hold back but all it took. Was You egging me on a little bit when we were doing our pre show production here in our had our little meeting and you know. I'm going to go completely off as much as I can. I think the first thing that needs to be pointed out was that blocked. Pat Creating pressure index or lawrence pushing his way through the middle. He did an incredible job. The whole game and is really the ideal guy that you WANNA put over. The head of the snapper in 'cause fits for him. Along snapper is significantly added disadvantage and I can say that personally being one in trying to block those guys you have have your head down and you're really just asked to stick in your arms out and hold up someone with your arms which isn't really going to do much trying to arm. Rabbit Dexter Lawrence who's over three hundred and forty pounds isn't going to do much so he was able to do that against the Ba- the Bucks Long Sampras Act trainer and create some pressure that blocked pat he eighteen. I think really set the tone for the bucks rookie kicker because if you talked to any kicker if field goal or a pat is blocked or or if you miss one that is going to negatively impact you for the rest of the game. It's going to be in your head. You're going to be thinking warriors coming across the ball and you're about to swing that that Oh are they going to block it. Are they close to me things like that. When you're over thinking are enough to mess up your steps enough to mess up the timing on the play even if the snap in the hold are are perfectly clean and I think we saw that on that final field goal and why he missed it so I don't WanNa really say even though we were giving acknowledgement to this yesterday yesterday that that final field goal kind of gave the wind of the giants but I think that they set that up they set that up situationally throughout the game because they were getting thing in his head. They weren't allowing him to be comfortable and finally when it came down to an important play he was thinking too much ended up missing it. The other thing that needed to be acknowledged research teams was just great punt coverage. There were no long returns whatsoever as soon as the ball was caught by whatever returner was out there for the bucks at each time. I'm they were immediately wrapped up tackled. There were two guys in the play ready to make a play and getting some big hits. Maybe down the line in the future in some of these games they'll be able to force some fumbles and some turnovers but just a great job of getting off blocks in streaming downfield in creating a very very good coverage net. I I don't have I have a whole lot to add about that. I thought maybe just to go back to the kicking game. I thought maybe the bucks rookie kicker who okay they mentioned during the game was their eighth different kicker in the last eight seasons so it's tough to find a good kicker. I think the giants are pretty. Oh you lucky with Algebra gross and it was smart of them to stick with him and develop him but when there is rookie that was it a fifty two yard kick just before the half. I thought maybe he kind of gotten past that. Block and Morris got his mind right but I got into a place where we just think point after as you know a touchdown seven points just those kicks are so routine. These guys make them in their sleep. Wash Tampa missed two and then those two points at the end of the game were absolutely huge if they make those two points either. They're not trying to kick from down one. They're kicking from from up. One at the end of the game said it's those small place that completely changed the complexion of a game and that's hitting yardage the hidden points that special teams bring it something I always go back to is. I believe it was back in twenty ten the at the time San Diego chargers and who knows they might be going back had the best offense in the NFL number warmer defense in the number one ranked defense but they still missed the playoffs because they had the worst special teams in the NFL and that was enough to keep them out of the playoffs so yes special teams are important so I think we're GonNa let you rant on the more often. I definitely will ran more often. If we see more great performances like that and you know the other thing too is we are very and the giants are very grateful for having a good kicker in aldergrove sauce a consistent guy who's really only missed one field field goal over the past two seasons who is notably a fan of the the instagram account for big blue is a consistent consistent. I didn't like her of posts on our page and additionally recently posts it out a the graphic on his story so all love to aldridge gross who is easily my favorite favorite specialist at the moment but that's going to be it from US folks. Thank you for tuning in the next up on tap for us. We're GONNA be discussing Redskins game and what who expect that will be likely coming out on Thursday and you can be looking around for that but it ended in addition to that wherever you're listening to us. Please rate and subscribe subscribe and give us your feedback on the show in addition to that if you don't do so already be sure to follow us on social media at Biglou Bjorn on twitter and at big underscore blu underscore view on instagram. Thank you for listening folks. How are you troubled by strange hockey traits of the middle of the night. Do you experience feelings of dread about. NHL Free Agency have you or your family ever seen in New York islanders game. If the answer is yes then don't wait another minute. Pick up your mobile device and subscribe to Lighthouse Hockey podcasts from espy nation today our courteous and efficient hosts already to serve all of your islander needs and worries lighthouse hockey podcasts for New York islanders fans.

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S2 E4: Technically Wrong With Author Sara Wachter-Boettcher

The Electorette Podcast

50:19 min | 2 years ago

S2 E4: Technically Wrong With Author Sara Wachter-Boettcher

"Hello, electorate listeners, this is Jen Taylor Skinner. I know the last few weeks have been especially hard, you know, but the only way to turn things around is political engagement and our best chances by becoming more engaged in volunteering for midterms, which are just around the corner and all start with the house which is foot twenty. Three districts in the house will take the majority and finally put a check on President Trump and the regressive administration and Ebeling him. That includes the regressive and cruel immigration policies or the latest tax cut that favors billionaires and corporations over middle income Americans. This is not what democracy is supposed to look like, but that's how it works with Trump and the conservatives controlling the house of representatives. We all have to work together to vote them out and put the house. In the midterms this year, we must elect progressive candidates who will hold Trump in its corrupt administration accountable. So getting gauged now because it's going to take everyone join swing. Left at swing left's, dot org slash electorate to find a nearby swing district where you can volunteer in help turn things around. This is the best chance we have to put a check on Trump voting is vital, but it's going to take more than voting to turn things around. We need to get fired up, get out of our comfort zones and volunteer. So go to swing left dot, org, slash electorate. I'm Jim Taylor. Skinner did misses the electorate on this episode. I discussed the book technically wrong with author and tech consultant. Sarah Wachter Becher. Nice. So secret that Silicon Valley in the tech industry has a diversity problem. The diversity numbers for women and people of color are abysmal. It's a topic of covering before. Have you ever stopped to think what that means for their output pub apps software and websites that they build or all of it by this lack of diversity? Well, I had a conversation with Sarah walk Becher whose book technically wronged comes out today in paperback, and she's thought all of this through. She's thought about how apps for shaped from their inception to their rule out there often failing user experience. Now, that's all shaped by company's culture and their values. Here's Sara describing the culture. You might find Hubert visit typical tech company in Silicon Valley today. Well, I think if you looked at the stats that most of the larger companies have started releasing, what you would find is that it's going to be mostly men mostly white, and particularly if you're looking at senior roles and if you're looking at roles of the demons technical, so people working in engineering or web development or anything that they've decided fits into the technical category, which weird. Those also happened to be the best paid roles. And so you get a pretty skewed view of what the world looks like. I think when you look inside those companies, so when you look at the makeup of these companies, there are disparities on all fronts. There are age disparities or racial disparities, gender disparities in one of the things that I've noticed is how everything is skewed towards, for instance, men over women and youth over older workers right down to how they socialize and play. Yeah, sure. I mean, people ask me a lot. I live in Philadelphia. I don't live in Silicon Valley and people often ask me, you know why I don't move to San Francisco or why. I'm not sort of more entrenched in that culture and I'm like, I'm very interested in in working with tuck, and I'm also interested in sort of commenting on tech, but I have no interest in actually being there because there's so much of it that just feels so like intensely monocultural like this. I mean, it's over the top that when you watch something like Silicon Valley, people who work in Silicon Valley here, like, yeah, that's pretty much what it's like. Right. Like there's a reason that that show rings really true for people, and it's that you go into these companies and it is. It's like, oh, we've got, you know the video game setup where people are going to hang out and play rock band or whatever. And then you've got the like rock climbing wall, and you've got the sort of like everybody's, you know, under thirty and kind of part of the same social group. And you know, I think it really creates this mentality that that's that's sort of who you're designing things for who you're making things for. And of course, like the world doesn't really look like that. No, one of the interesting things that you know your book is that there is such a focus on youth that there are these rumors that you know and I hadn't heard. This before actually, there rumors that some startup founders would resort to plastic surgery in order to to look younger. I mean, that's a, that's a story that I've heard passed around though is I think something that I was commenting on that I had seen out in the media as as a trend. And I mean, it's the kind of thing that rumors spread around about. I don't how common that is, but what I think is really telling is just that that's a rumor that exists at all, just how much youth is revered. I mean, there's still that strong bias toward, you know, the like genius programmer in a hoodie who dropped out of Stanford or Harvard, and who has this idea that's going to change the world and that he came up with all by himself in his room in the middle of the night, and a part of that is very much wrapped up in this idea of youth and that being where the innovation is going to come from. And I think what really, you know what really seeing is we're seeing tech industry that is prized that for a long time even as the scope of what. The tech industry is doing has widened so much that pretty much every institution unit act with the most like intimate parts of your life or so fully intertwined with technology that the idea that that sort of lone cowboy this come up with these innovative ideas for us as seems like it doesn't really make any sense, right? Like it doesn't make sense that that is going to be the way that we're going to create a functional digital society. And I think that what's what's happened is that the culture in the tech industry just hasn't caught up to the reality and what we're starting to see all of these, like really toxic implications. Right? We're seeing all kinds of examples of ways in which technology might be hurting us a working against us, and you know, we're seeing that come out whether we're talking about things like election hacking or retiring about things like artificial intelligence or just talking about sort of the mundane shit that our technology does on a day-to-day basis. Now, one of the things that that's still surprises me is that people who are outside of the industry. You know, there's often surprise by some. The decisions that are made by companies in relation to the user experience. You know, for instance on Twitter, Jack Dorsey, and people complain about the experience of women and feminists on Twitter and why it's taken so long for them to take action against people who are constantly harassing them, you know, and they don't really understand why protections seem to be skewed away from women in away from people of color and others and underrepresented minority groups in favor of people who are like himself, you know, and I was thinking about it, and there really is no incentive for them to care about groups of than those who are like them. There's no incentive for him to care about the harassment of black feminist on Twitter or the use of the transgender community in, you know, they have no personal reason that would push them towards thinking about the experiences of these groups online now, which is why I always say representation matters. Yeah, absolutely. And if you look at something like Twitter, what I think you see very clearly is that the also spent way too. Two long minimizing those issues. Right? So they were founded by, you know, four young white men who came together and thought, wouldn't it be cool if and it was like, wouldn't it be cool if you could kind of post these live updates, raw real from the road can share them with each other. At first they called it like, you know, like a digital version of the CB radio, and that might have sounded fun in theory, right? Like I mean, I can totally understand how you're sitting around a room and you come up with the idea and you're like, well, what if we did that? And the problem is that you know nobody was asking hard questions at that early point or until way too late about like, okay, but what if somebody was trying to abuse this? Have we just criticism that's really easy to abuse and what are we gonna do about that when that happens? And the thing is that they started getting reports of lots of abuse happening on Twitter pretty early. You know, black adoption of Twitter happened pretty fast. And so in like gosh, around maybe two thousand eight, two thousand nine two thousand ten. The usage of Twitter amongst the black community was going much higher than much more quickly than it was for for white people. I mean, obviously like black Twitter's is now such a massive part of the Twitter experience if you're paying any attention. And so they started also getting a lot of reports particularly from black women that they, they were experiencing abuse in the platform, and they spend a really long time ignoring it. And so when you start seeing Twitter actually saying like, oh gosh, we should do something about this. That's like dick Castillo who is the CEO for a while. And that's only a few years ago that he was like, oh, we actually suck dealing with abuse, and that's when they first started to organize themselves in a way to potentially address some of it. And I think at that point, they were in a really defensive position, they had really entrenched beliefs. They felt like they needed to sort of like defend their past actions and they were woefully ill equipped to change things. Right. And so what you end up having a lot of like sticking your head in the sand and a lot of like doubling down on decisions at apartment people and. I think that that leads us right to where we are right now where you have somebody like Jack offensively, you know, shielding fascists on Twitter because it's easier for him, right? Like it's easier and more comfortable for him to hide behind some ideas about free speech than it is to truly here in CD experiences of people who are not like him and change and do something about it. But now that these companies have matured in these practices are in the spotlight. Everyone is watching Facebook and Twitter and how they protect users in how they handle bias, and especially all eyes are on their hiring practices and you're right, you know, they're often defensive in response to any criticism and one of the defenses to the question of why is your workforce so homogeneous? They often blame the pipeline, but that's not really the cause bright. I mean, why is it not accurate to blame the pipeline? So I think that there's the pipeline is an easy excuse in the pipeline. Excuse is basically saying, well, not enough women or people of color or insert whatever demographic you want. There are studying computer science or getting into engineering, and so there's not enough of them to hire. We would love to hire more of them, but there's just not enough in the pipeline. And I think that really does that sort of excuses them right. It's a way to pass the buck to say it's not our fault. There's can be anything we're doing. So I think that that's really problematic for a few reasons. One of them is that it's just not really very true. I mean, there may not be as many people studying those fields as there are like white guy studying this field shore, but there's actually way more than are getting hired. And the attrition rates, particularly for people of color are really high. So it's like you end up in these companies and then you're like, oh, no, never mind, and you get out. And what you also have is a lot of bias in the recruiting process. There's been a number of studies with this. I remember there was one that actually came out of Facebook, maybe like gosh, a year and a half ago or so. Now where Facebook and talked about like changing its recruitment process so that recruiters were partially graded on whether they were bringing in more diverse candidates. And so the recruiters effectively like they did their job, they went out and found more diverse candidates for the roles that they were hiring for because they were incentivized to do them, but kept on happening over and over again is that you would have candidates make all the way to the end of the process and they'd be in the final stages? Right? An in those final stages, the people who had get end up getting hired. Those are the people that the senior managers who made final choices found were more similar to the people already there. So they'd say like, oh, well, we've got these, you know, couple of finalists for this role, but this one went to Stanford or this one already worked at, you know, names. Big company and when people were relying on those kinds of bias toward people who seem similar to the people that they've hired in the past, then the reality was that even though the recruiters were bringing in more qualified diverse candidates, the people getting hired were not shifting nearly as quickly. So it's a sort of like, you know, this dislike lazy equivalency that's happening. I talked to somebody named Nicole Sanchez awhile back. She does diversity inclusion consulting in Silicon Valley, and you know, she talked about being in a lot of these processes and she's like, you know, they'll, they'll equate like where they went to school, or whether you worked at some other company in the past as being, you know, indicative of you being successful there being quote, a good fit. But the reality is that just recreates the same setup that you already have so like you, you cannot actually change in less. You are willing to acknowledge that that means your company has to look different and be different. And maybe also like your conception of who the best candidate is for the job has been wrong all along because you've assume. The best candidate was like the people you had before and you don't even know what you're missing out on. Right, right, right. I mean, well, when they do release the diversity numbers, what you often see is that the gains that they make it hiring are often undone by higher attrition rates of people color and people in underrepresented minority groups. So what happens is, you know, when they release these numbers, although they may have made some efforts to make their workforce, were they I, the culture is such. Once you're in the culture is such that it does not support retaining these folks, right? And their overall numbers for the year, either remain flat or they decline, you know. So once you're in the culture is not inclusive in people just leave, right? Yes, absolutely. You know, I mentioned Nicole Sanchez when I spoke with her, one of the things that she talked a lot about was that when she goes in and talks to companies about how they need to, you know, attracted retain more diverse people. She finds it. Oftentimes they will hire big crops of women and people of color at sort of a certain point in the cycle. Of each year, and then they'll have so much attrition of them that they're like, oh crap. We gotta like rehire. A lot of these before we get around to counting the numbers against what doesn't look like we dropped and it's like, okay, then you're just managing to this metric, right? You're not. You're not actually really changing anything. You're not looking at like, well, wait a second. Why can't we retain black women on our staff, right? Which is a really, like I really important question that you need to be asking if you're looking at this and you're going like, wow, you know, over and over again, we have this high level of attrition amongst these groups like what's going on and what do we need to change that and like what about us isn't working for them? And I just think that there's a lot of reluctance to tackle that stuff in an honest way and also to just talk about it openly like to actually be willing to talk about issues related to race and gender, and ability ageism as what they are and not try to just like, you know, hide them into some generic diversity. Container and like not really, actually get into the muck of it. You know, they're embarrassed. I think so. Very also think that there's a piece of it where. There's a lot of people who are so uncomfortable talking about particularly about race that you know having a detailed conversation about it is awkward for them and it makes them feel weird. It makes them feel like they're doing something wrong. And so there's a lot of avoidance or I think there's also this issue where you've got companies that are hiring diversity and inclusion officers. I think they generally have good intentions for doing that. And oftentimes people in those roles are amazing, but it creates a sense of like, oh, that problem is being worked on over there as opposed to that being a problem that is actually like endemic to the organization has to be worked on an every single part of the organization like it certainly can be job to work on diversity and inclusion. But if you are sort of saying like, oh, well, we hired somebody to deal with that. Then you know, then then you're saying that's not really my responsibility, and I think about that a lot. I mean, I think in the same way that I would say something like, you know, you think about like issues related to security intact. Those are massive, right? And you may have a team that's devoted to security. But if you just said like, well, I am under no responsibility to build software that is secure because we have a security team, they can deal with it. You would probably be fired because people would say, you're not taking this crucial thing seriously, but I think that that's what happens with a lot of other things in tech from diversity and inclusion of people who work there to the potential for its products to harm people are bias embedded in them. Well, now that we've established what the company culture looks like and how it's shaped a spoke about their output, the software in the apps that they build. So can you describe what a persona is and how they're used in software developments and app design in who creates them? So a persona is this kind of documentation or like design, artifact quote, unquote with might say in the in the industry where you are kind of imagining the desire to potential user of a product and you are talking about sort of like, you know, who are they? What do they care about. What are they? You know, how old are they? What do they do? Much money to make what detail of persona has really varies depending on who made it and kind of like what their perspective is on what a persona should include. But what you find oftentimes is that in the tech and design industries, you have the sort of reliance on these sort of, you know, fake people. Essentially, you could say right to say like, oh, you know, this is Angie. She's thirty seven. She's got two kids. She works in HR that's who were designing for and the idea behind them I think is good. The idea is that if you can imagine real people and realistic people using your product and you can think about sort of like the idea of a product in the context of people's real lives than you can do a better job of making sure that it's actually usable for them that it solves our problems and that it fits into their context. Great. The problem often comes in when we have these really idealized views of who people are and what they need. And so oftentimes. What you find and personas are really kind of like one output of this, but it's like a general mentality. I think they're part of is this this mentality that's like imagining users a really idealized way. Imagining people as sort of like kind of constantly looking to be delighted and engaged and where the story sort of like the user story is they say the the story of them using your product successfully. It always ends like a happy ending, right? It's like Angie has a problem. Angie uses this tech product and then Angie's life is better. And what you end up with is oftentimes a lot of stereotypes built into them. Right? So you'll be like, oh, our product is for moms, and so therefore we got like us all of this messaging that's going to resonate with moms and make sure that the features are focused on moms and we made it may maybe don't really unto the people aren't moms are going to use it, and that might not be true. But then you also have this sort of focused on positive outcomes, and it really encourages people to think about how is somebody going to be successful with this product, and if you. You think about that, but the never stop and think, how could this product hurt or how could this product fail them? Then I think you have a real problem. You know moms for. Their culture doesn't make room for moms really does it. No, I think that that's true. I mean, I definitely know people who felt like they couldn't really have a career in Silicon Valley and also be a parent. And obviously people do women do, but it's necessarily make it easy. And you know what I mean? Like you've probably heard all of the stories about, like, you know, tech companies offering, AIG freezing as benefit to employees that's considered a perk, and I'm not necessarily against that, but one of the things that's really interesting about it is that I always think of it as like, oh, right, that's a quote, unquote perk in the same way that like your office providing is a perk. It's like, because you can't leave your office and be home or somewhere else at a reasonable hour dinner. So they're providing you with food which is only perk if you don't think about what that means for like the kind of hours you're working. Right. So it's like egg freezing. It's like, well, that's a perk, but like are people taking advantage of that perk because they don't feel like they could successfully actually like have a family and going maternity. Leave and work that company and continue having a career. Well, what does that say about the company culture? Yeah, and by the way, I know that there are women and their mothers who work. Absolutely. I mean, I sure I don't absolutely don't want to raise the fact that there are mothers who work in Silicon Valley, some of them it, you know, it really high level some of them very successfully, but it's very difficult and I definitely know people who have found that it was not possible for them because they not just because of the policies, but the policies which are probably like similar to policies in America in general. Right. Not great, right. But also because of the culture being so focused on this sort of like young men, you know, work hard all day, get together and drink beer together after work. You know that that's the way that you become part of the team that you show that you're team player in if that lifestyle doesn't suit you. And if you are not in a place in your life or that is right for you, which obviously, like for a mother of a young child, that's probably not gonna fit, but there's a ton of other people that doesn't work for either. You just stop feeling like you fit in and you start feeling like you could advance because you're kind of like now visible. Yeah, you know. And the thing about the craziness, a really good example because the medicine it sends to women who want to work there is that we don't expect you to pursue having a family while you're here because we don't necessarily support that that direction for women who were here. Yeah. I mean, I think that if you talk to these companies, there's no, no, no, you know, we, we definitely support having parents on our staff and here's what we offer from one hundred m paternity leave that are at cetera. But you know, I think that the idea that women are taking advantage of egg freezing because they do not. Feel like they can successfully manage a family during the years where they are, you know, most fertile is, I think it's like, I don't know. I think it's really telling about sort of like where where we are as a society and also like within tech specifically in a speaking of that. Can you talk a bit about the example you gave him the book the app glow? Right? What was it intended to do? Sure. So this is one of my favorite topics in that's up period tracking apps. I love talking about period tracking apps because they are such a place where technology and like weird assumptions about women and women's health combine. And so, okay. So glow was an app that it was originally created as a period and fertility tracker. And so when it started out when you first start the app, you could use it to see whether you we're trying to get pregnant or you were trying to avoid getting pregnant, or if you were undergoing. Artillery treatment. So you kind of set it to these different modes, weirdly, it was being billed as a period tracking app, but there was no mode. You could set it to that said, I just want to track my period. It was all like trying to get pregnant trying not to get pregnant, right? Like, that's that's what they thought about as use cases. And of course, you know, if you're not sexually active or if you're not sexually active with somebody who can get you pregnant, not none of those modes make any sense for you. Right? So it was sort of arbitrarily leaving out a bunch of people for no good reason. And it was one of the first kind of larger period tracking apps available, kind of like one of the first product that had a lot of funding, and so therefore like a lot of features a lot of design capability behind it. And then the other issues with glow was that really also made a lot of assumptions about, you know, people who are using it, particularly if you're trying to avoid pregnancy. There are a lot of a sumptiousness about the kind of sexy were having and also weird assumptions about things like. They would tell you things like whether or not you could snuggle quote unquote snuggle like whether you're on your period or not. It was very weird. It was very paternalistic. Yeah. So at some point they decided it'd been started by extra four men and at some point they decided to kind of like split off, I think because they got a lot of, they actually found that a lot of people were just using it to track their period, which seemed like this big surprise to them. I'm like, did you talk to women? So the eventually split us off to this other app called eve by glow. And what eve was intending to do was to be like a period tracker that also has sex tips. And in theory, it was trying to be kind of like young adult oriented or teen oriented, but it also is so focused on sax and also focused on sort of like hetero normative sex and very cutesy. And so if you'd like, if you just wanted to like straight up track a period where you're like, I wanna know when I'm going to be menstruating, and I wanna know sort of wearing him and my cycle. What you wanted to know their products were just like, not at all designed for that. And you know what you find is that you have these products that it's like when companies bothered to serve women's health needs at all. The often them in these really sort of narrow ways. And then you have all sorts of other companies that are just like missing the boat entirely. Like when apple health launched, they launched the apple health tracker as being like, you know, the place for all your health metrics, right? And that was like the messaging that they used out there in the talked about how you could track all these different things, you know, like from your exercise to like your weight and also things like you don't know whether you've had enough chromium intake today, but they launched it and they didn't include a period tracker, and so they kept saying all your health metrics that matter all your health metrics that matter. And it's like, excuse me, I think that this is a health metric that probably matters for like a lot of people, and it took them a whole year after they launched that product for them to finally come in and out. A period tracker until when you compare these things, it's like you take somebody like glow where it's like all of this really sort of bias messaging about who is tracking their period and why they're tracking it a lot of sumptious there. And then you have these other products where they've just completely ignored that market together. And I think what you're really seeing is just an under investment and understanding and designing for the space and a lack of understanding about what women's needs really are. And I should say, conscious women, you know anybody who has a period which going to be predominantly women, but you know, other other folks as well. And then the other thing that that I really noticed about this I thought was fascinating that when I talk about period tracking, examples in like conference talks, which I do quite often, I think it's great to get on stage and talk about menstruation. We don't talk about publicly enough when I do that. Almost always east come up to me afterwards and they're just like, oh my God. Thank you so much for talking about this us fill in the blank period tracker, and I'm so frustrated by it because it doesn't do this or does that or makes this assumption. So many people have so many problems with this. A particular type of technology, and you know, so many of the makers behind it don't seem to really be listening, you know, like you said, this app was designed and launched by men and could owes to them for seeing a knee and trying to to fill that that Nisha. But you know, it's obvious that they did not get enough input from women or, you know, their sample size was too small. You know in. Secondly, when you put an app like this on the market, it sends the message that groups whose experiences are excluded from the app scenarios. Their life experience is not the default and therefore is less important, we'll absolutely. I mean, I think that that's a big piece of it is that they're all these assumptions about who is an average user. Right. And when you assume that your average user is somebody who is trying to get pregnant or in a heterosexual relationship that are then all the decisions that you make to prioritize that person make anybody who's in a different kind of scenario, feel like they're not normal in some way. And so you know what, what I. I've talked about a lot is this idea that it can actually be really powerful to not just think about who your average are is, but to actually think about who is the person who is more at the edges. So who's the person in the most marginal most marginally circumstances, who is the person who has the least powers the most vulnerable, who is the person who's menstrual needs? Are the most sort of like abnormals and a lot of ways. So like for example, what if somebody with an incredibly long or an incredibly short cycle is using this product? Right? Like if you're always looking at, you know, who is not. In fact, we think of his average, but who we think of as maybe being a little bit less common of a case, can they use this and if they use this, does it work for them? And I think that those are some questions that are not being asked very often because again, we're so focused in the tech industry on sort of like these fantasy outcomes of like this person is going to use this product in their life is going to be great, and they're. To tell other friends in our engagement is going to be high in our investors will be very happy, cetera, et cetera. And it's, it creates this very narrow story about what we're building and makes us really prone to lose sight of anything outside of that. Yeah, in the second thing that I thought when I read that story was that will also this is an opportunity for some woman, you know, to build a competitive into build all these scenarios in than I remembered that women don't get funding. Yeah. I mean, that's that is a big issue, right? I mean, you know, I've heard over and over and over a from women who are trying to get funded or who are trying to change the game as venture capital where they'll say things like, you know, you walk into a room and you're pitching and men will say things like, well, I just don't know. I'd have to ask my wife. I don't really understand anything about this market and it's like, okay, how can you be an investor in decide you're not gonna know anything about the market of women that's not like a niche market like that's largest a massive market and they'll just act. So sort of like who I just have no idea if there's actually an audience for that and it's like, have you met women do talk to women? Do you do know women decide your wife? And I think that oftentimes the answer is like not really. I mean, they do of course early, but that for a lot of people, you know. It's like white guys talking to white guys about white guy stuff. And if that's what your day-to-day really looks like within your company, who's at your business meetings, who are you having lunches with? Who are you seeing conferences if that's sort of what your day norm is then? Yeah, like your context for anybody who's different than that is just woefully limited. And the reality is that means if you are making decisions about products are going to create a product going to fund, you're really like leaving a lot of people out end you're limiting your own success. Yeah, you know, it's interesting that you use the the wife is an example, because I think that's really interesting because even when they do talk to women or us women's experiences as an example, it's in the context of their world, right? Like not necessarily context of their wife's thinking, right. Do you think about this glue app, their experience with the woman who's closest to them is that she's trying to get pregnant, probably. Right. And that's that's actually how that product came to be. Yes, yeah, exactly. So it's still in the context of their world? Well, exactly. And I think again, it comes back to, you know. If that's the that is like the closest they can get to understanding women's context is like understanding their wife's context that to me just seems like not enough. You know, I remember one of the people that I talked to for the book is a woman who was working on a project to design a smart watch a couple of years ago for a fashion brand. And so you know the the goal was really designed this sort of fashion forward watch because at the time most of the smartwatch is on the market were kind of like a little bit more techie looking, and we're at necessarily designed for the sort of the fashion savvy person. Right? And so she went and did all of this research and talked to so many women and did like all kinds of other research. And when she presented her findings back, the people in the room was all men. They kept saying things like, oh, you know, my wife wouldn't use it like that. My wife just likes to go shopping. She wants a shopping app and it was like such a reduced view of how people might use this even though she had all of this research from. People saying things like what they wanted to do with a smart watch was they really wanted to stay on top of stuff during meetings. Like the number one thing they said it was like they wanted a way to discreetly stay on top of things. So for example, like if daycare called will they were in a meeting. They wanted to be able to glance at their watching note was daycare and they needed to answer it without making it seem like they were distracted by mom stuff. Right? So those kinds of stories, the people in the room just wouldn't listen to them. They were like that didn't square with the the concept of women they had in their mind because the concept of women, their mind was like based on this extremely limited sample of like the woman that they're married to, and like the woman that is married to some. You know, Silicon Valley executive is not gonna be the typical person pine, the product he, you know, and I love the example that you give of the. I think this was actually your story where the persona of the the black female executives, which was dismissed as not realistic. Oh gosh, that was a really the man. That was a really painful meeting, and that was. One of the times when I was like, I think that the way that I have been taught to think about personas is not working where you know we had, we had really gone into this organization that actually had quite a diverse audience that it was. It was reaching, but we'd wanted to make sure that we didn't just replicate these sort of assumptions about who was going to be in like a CEO role who's going to be like an executive leader. And so we are focusing more in our personas on things like needs and motivations, and sort of like what makes them tick. And we just happened to us a picture of a black woman to go without persona to give her a face right, to make it seem real. And yeah, I would became this whole thing where it was like the one person said like, there's not realistic, you need to change it and then you know we did, and then it went to went to another person who was like, well, now you have this white male CEO and you have this, you know, black woman and a low level position, and he was funded by that and like the whole thing I realized looking at it now. I'm like, that was such a losing proposition like the whole. I. Of us trying to tie what people are actually looking like to these personas was really problematic. I do think we need to challenge assumptions about who's using what and what kinds of roles people are in and make sure that you can't envision somebody who is, let's say a, you know, a black woman in a position of power using your product. Great. But I think that what were doing in personas was just creating this this. It was creating this, you know, misunderstanding about what a percent really meant or should mean and causing more problems than it could Saul. Now wanna talk a bit about form design. I mean design in general, but specifically about form design. It's it's one of my favorite favorite topics because it's kind of one of those taking nerdy things that that's fun to analyze. So if you've ever used online form, you'd know that there are these finite number of form field types that's used on all forms. Dropdown boxes, check boxes, etcetera. You know, an all forms have these. But in this context, you know, problems can arise in the wave of the forms are designed. You know, the choices that are presented often reveal by CS of the designer. So can you talk a bit about that? Sure. And so I think I think that something that I would say is that forms are also such a baseline part of a digital experience for people like if you do pretty much anything online euro filling out form fields, whether you're trying to buy something online, you're going to be providing your payment information. Shen and you're shipping information. If you're using Facebook, you're writing a post in your posting stuff. Clicking buttons, right? Like you're filling out a profile when you sign up for a social media account, all of that stuff is is filling out forms. And so much of that is often taken for granted where it's, you know, it's like pain name and Email address and date of birth. And then you get into lots and lots of data that is being collected about things like race, gender, and that's where things are really off the rails. I think one we have definitely developed tech industry that is very comfortable asking for data that it frankly has no business having. And you see a lot less of that. Another places. If you go to Europe, there's so much more protection for peoples privacy, and there's so much less of a sort of assumption that you should just be handing out all this data all the time. So that's a piece of it is that we have so many people who are just like asking for data, because while we always ask for title, it's like you don't actually need to know if I'm a miss or MRs in order to ship me something right. Like it's totally irrelevant. You want that data because you want to gather like a larger dossier me, but you don't need that. And so part of it is that then the other piece of it is that we have a lot of really outdated assumptions about a density get baked into these forms. So for example, I just saw a form field the other day somebody, of course, tweeted at me. I get a lot of the stuff now just find a lot of screen shots where she was looking at these options for like race, ethnicity menu, and one of them was Latino, Hispanic, Latino. And then all the other ones, it's like Hispanic, Latino, non white. And then it was like white, not Hispanic, Latino black, not Hispanic, Latino thunder thunder. And she was like, there isn't a formula that actually fits me. She's biracial and every single one of those was technically incorrect and she couldn't figure out sort of the right way to move to that form. I also see a lot of times you have things like, you know, gender selection, it's by an airy, it says male or female. No option to select anything else. No option to like not selected answer and there's really no no reason to be doing that at this point. I mean, it's two thousand eighteen maybe just stop Escobar gender in the first place and the state of that you really need to have, then it's really important to make sure that people can you know, give you information that matches who they actually are in what they want to be known as. But we've we've sort of built a lot of digital culture around having his data inputs that suit, sort of like our simplified view of the world and not how the world actually looks. And I think that that's really problematic for a lot of reasons. It could be very alienating people, but also results in data that we think is reflective of people because they had to pick something. But in fact is not reflective of them because they couldn't pick the thing that was reflective of them. Yeah, I played devil's advocate for minute because you know, those choices are intentionally intended to be confining, right? Because if you were. Just saying you use open textbooks for something like that. Right. And people were bored to put in like whatever the whatever they wanted, right, or over whatever was accurate for them. And then you, you would have so much data that you wouldn't be able to parse it. Right. I mean, so how do you solve a problem like that? Well, I guess the question is, what is what are you actually trying to do with that data? I don't know. Well, that's that's the thing. I mean, I think that there's there's many answers that question. It depends on your product, but I think the reality is for a lot of companies. They don't know either. They're collecting that data. They don't necessarily know. I think there is very, very, very, very few scenarios in which somebody actually needs things like your title where they need to be deciding whether you are Mr. MS or miss or whatever. Right. So in a lot of forms that should just be eliminated altogether, I think that when it comes to something like gender, you can certainly have some pre-selected stuff that is what you know, the majority of people are going to select, but then you can have. People fill in something other than that, if they'd like to, that's not going to scripture data very much again, what are you trying to do with that data. The other thing you can ask people about, you know, oftentimes it's like what they actually want, what they're interested in versus who they are. So oftentimes, you know, people will use your gender information to decide like, I don't know which kinds of promotions you should get like. Should we send you the like women's clothing features in E mail, or should we send men's stuff and like you can just ask people what they're interested in. The other thing I would say is that comes with something like race. One of the problems is that it tends to be like a select one scenario and because that's how it's been on like paper forms in the past in these things get passed along and pass along in question, but being able to select a number of options, I think is a really simple way that you would be able to better account for people because for a lot of people, their identity is not so simple. It doesn't feel right to just select one thing and not the other. You know, like if you are, you know, like one parent is Asian and another parent is black. What what is the right. Answer, which part of your identity do you get to show? I think that those kinds of solutions, candy pretty simple. But again, I also think that a lot of it comes down to just questions that are never asked. There's there's not enough discussion within the industry about, do we need this in the first place? How are we actually planning to use this? Would it be a problem if we didn't have clean data? Like if people did enter whatever they want in what way? Would that be a problem? You know, is there a way that we can normalize that on our side and not make the user do it? You know, there's a lot of questions that could be asked, but none of those questions are being asked. If you just assume that the way forms of always been is fine. Again, playing devil's advocate. What about the need to collect data from the public to determine, you know, disparities, disparities around race, you know, I'm thinking about college admissions or school discipline or lending. For instance, I mean, collecting data for the purposes of ferreting out disparities in bias sees that we want to fix, you know, I personally would not want that data collection to stop. Well, yeah. I mean, I think it really depends. I guess the point is saying like. Like you really need to understand why you're asking for everything you're asking for. And I don't think that that is the case. I think that there is a tendency to want data because data is perceived as inherently good. So we should get as much of it as we can from people. And I think what we're seeing. I mean, if you look at like, I don't know, basically everything that's come out of Facebook. In the past two years, we are seeing that like getting all of the data, you can possibly get out of people and then figuring out what to do with it later does not necessarily lead us to good outcomes. Nobody's saying, you know, we should never collect racial information. Obviously, if you're going to talk about disparities, you need to have data for that. And there are tremendous disparities amongst people of different races, and we do need to be doing a really good job of of figuring out where that's happening and being able to have the data for it. But that doesn't mean that like random tech company with a random consumer product needs to have that data now through. So speaking of race, and can you talk a bit about that app next door which I, which I haven't used, but when I was reading about in your book and kind of made me angry stock about this app and how it encourages racial profile. Pulling. Yeah. So next door is interesting. Next door is an app that allows you to basically know what's going on in your immediate neighborhood. So I might be able to find out that the people on my block, for example, had their car broken into or maybe there's going to be a yard sale down the street, or maybe there's going to be a road closure, my neighborhood, right? So it's like your immediate neighborhood and in theory, that sounds great in practice. Next door was having a lot of problems with racial profiling. So what would happen is that people would be posting crime and safety reports. So like I said, somebody breaking into a car for example, right? But they'd be posting this crime and safety reports that when you looked at them a little closer, they didn't actually indicate a crime taking place. It was basically like a sketchy guy drove through the neighborhood and the description of the sketchy guy, the drift is a neighborhood was. He was black, and there was like no other data than that, right? Or you know, like I saw Latino guy walking a dog. I mean, that's not what they wrote, but that's affectively. If you, if you read. All the was there. It was like a Latino guy walking dog in. And so there were a lot of reports of racial profiling, and of course that could be really dangerous. Right? Like I mean, that kind of low level racism on the app is one thing. But also if you start like, you know, having your neighbors go after any black person drives to the neighborhood and the police are called, I mean, right, like that's a problem. So next door did not necessarily fix this out of the goodness of their hearts. What they did is started getting a lot of pushback from both like neighborhood like community groups as well as from government. So they were getting bad press and the city of Oakland is one of their major partners was threatening to pull out of their partnership with them if they didn't address it. So next or did is he started working with a group called neighbors for racial Justice, which is based in Oakland and looked at how could we approach this differently. The first idea that next door had was that they should be able to flag opposes racial profiling. The problem was that people don't necessarily know what that is in. So or like, aren't gonna use. It appropriately. So like there would be posts for somebody would say something like, I hate dogs and people would flag that racial profiling. Nope, that's not what that means. So that wasn't really what neighbors for racial Justice did is they said, you know, we think that we should be looking at this form itself and that the way the people are submitting the form might be encouraging them or allowing them making it easy for them to submit things that are racially profiling. And so what they did is actually redesign that formed a slow it down. So instead of being basically like a big open text field, right? Whatever you want in there and hit submit, they actually made it like a two step process. It's described the event, then you have to describe the people involved. And when you describe the people involved instead of a big text fields broken down at the smaller fields, but you're not allowed to submit the form of all you enter is race in this any information you have to enter additional detail because you have to actually been paying attention to what this person looked like. Right. And so what they found was that this dramatically decreased the number of reports that went in that we're racially profiling. And I think that that's that's a really good thing. I think that there are some. There are definitely some missteps along the way. I talked to some folks from. Racial Justice who worked on this and like a lot of the recommendations they had didn't get implemented. And that also took next door like a year or something after they watched this undock stop for them to launch it on mobile, which is a big problem. When you think about how a crime and safety report would occur, the likelihood of somebody wanting to post that from mobile is really high. So if you were on a mobile device, you could still go through an easier process and end up posting something racially profiling. That's that's an issue. I think the next door could have done this a lot faster, but it would. I think was interesting about it is that they found that not only did it really decrease racially profiling posts. It also decreased the number of crime and safety reports in general because they made it harder for people to post them. A owned dot is generally seen as a negative metric in Silicon Valley, right? Like fewer reports equals lesson gauge, meant less views, right? And they had to be able to say like, okay, this is going to cause a dip in some of our metrics is going to look like the form is working less good. But actually this is important. This is better for the safety of our communities. So why is this book? I was reading your last chapter and we're talking about in the scope of what's happening politically like, is it really important for us to think about these things right? These apps in the, you know what technology companies are doing are the bigger fights, the fight, this Fisher conclusion. Why is this important for us to think about right now? Well, I think I think we're seeing we're living at, you know, I was writing this book leading up to and just after the last presidential election is really fraught time, and it's only become more fraud, I think since then and more and more has come out about the role of technology in our electoral system and as well as you know, the way the tech companies have been maybe abusing our data, right? Like we've seen a ton of evidence of that of last couple of years. A lot of what I'm talking about in the book is not just that issue, but sort of interconnected issues. Some of them seemingly very small like every single time you use an app that forces you to enter information about yourself that it doesn't actually need or the doesn't reflect. Your identity every single time. A tech product goes out on the market that didn't consider whether it can harm somebody every single time. These sort of biased decisions are made at a small level, would they really do? They reinforce a culture in the tech industry and intercultural large because tech is so influential and is so pervasive about who matters what matters and that is massively important. I think we're seeing that everywhere in society right now. And if we're not paying attention to it in the small ways, it makes it really hard to to push back against the big ways. Sarah, thank you so much for joining me today. Have really enjoyed talking to you. Yeah, thank you so much done. Thank you so much for listening again. Technically, wrong is out today on paperback, and it's a really, really good read. You can find links to it in today's show notes. And again, thank you so much for listening. I appreciate your support and keep up the good fight.

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Big Blue Big Board: Who did and didn't impress at the NFL Combine?

Big Blue View

41:31 min | 2 years ago

Big Blue Big Board: Who did and didn't impress at the NFL Combine?

"Uh-huh. Welcome to the big blue big Boyd podcast. I am damp is joined here by Chris flung. Chris you doing today I have a little bit. But combine hangover but right now doing good. Yeah. A lot of combine has been happening. All of the combine has been had. We are coming to you kind of right after the defensive backs have stopped working out on Monday. So that is officially the end of the combined for some reason they stretch it to Monday instead of just starting the workouts day early. I don't know what the point of that is. But we're all wrapped up. Everyone has worked out at least the people who were supposed to work out before the combined. We talked about who we were excited to see work out. And today we are going to talk about who we were excited to see work out at the same phrase now in a different tense. I guess so there was. A lot of good stuff. It is. Combine this been like, maybe the most athletic combine we've seen in a while. We're going to talk about some people who disappointed much later in the show, and you had to try really hard to disappoint this year. Yeah. This was probably one of the most fun combines. I can remember for the most part the NFL network. Did a good job with the broadcast and some of the workouts were just phenomenal. I'm not sure all those guys were completely human some of the stuff. We saw was just unreal. There were a couple of record setting things thing just during the defensive backward. Cout one Thornhill safety from Virginia had forty four inch vertical of which think is combine record. We just saw some crazy stuff this week. Yeah. Everybody was talking about the decay Metcalf workout and then not twenty four hours later. Montas? Sweat comes on. And does his thing and actually blows away today. Cloudy, so yeah, we just saw new levels of freakish nece. Yes. So we're going to talk about the players who impressed us the most and let so with Montas sweat edge rusher from Mississippi State, a came in and pretty much destroyed everything. So he ran a four four one at two hundred sixty pounds. I think we talked in earlier shows about speed score that usually is used for running backs, which you just kind of a weight adjusted forty so it's really impressive to run a four one. It's almost superhuman to run a four four one at two hundred sixty pounds. So when you adjust for that he comes out with the speed score of one thirty seven point five is speech who are adjusted so that Inada speed at whatever weight comes out to about a hundred. So this is one hundred thirty seven point five I have SP. Speeds gourds for addresses going back to you twenty thirteen right now, I think just in my personal database and the closest any edge. Rusher has come to sweat was digestion cloudy, and that was only one twenty six point three. So this is just kind of insane into go. Maybe further sikwan Barkley who puts super athletic. He ran a four four at two hundred and thirty three pounds last year. So we were all going crazy about how athletic saquon Barkley was so Montas wet just ran just about the same forty with almost thirty pounds on him. Yeah. And he's just got crazy lengths to six with six. He has you know, what I'm not going to quibble over quarter of an inch thirty six inch long arms. So you put that amount of acceleration. He had a one five ten yards split. And I think about a thirty six inch vertical. And a almost and a half foot broad jump. That is just a crazy amount of lower body explosion just coming onto line. And with his length. He will be most offensive tackles two landmark he will have his hands on them. I and for an edge rusher that means he wins. I had some concerns coming into the combine about his ability to bend around the corner, he then proceeded to put up a seven second three cone and a were point two nine seconds. Short shuttle, those are good period for a guy six to sixty those are exceptional. So I'm just going to put those if there's concerns on the shelf for now. Yeah. There were a couple of people who had been looking at sweat and a little concerned about production. And I'm not totally sure why at fourteen tackles for loss eleven and a half sacks eighteen and a half run stuff's he was tied for third in this class with twenty six quarterback hits in twenty eighteen eight six way tie there. But still he was able to get pressured. He got to the quarterback. So now, you put this workout on top of it. And I think sweat really just raises up. I've probably a lot of people's minds. So we've talked about sparked before which again is a composite score of all of this testing. And it just puts it into just one metric and percentile used to compare to anyone else at that position in the NFL, so Montas sweat, his spark came in ninety seven point six. So that's nearly the ninety eighth percentile among NFL edge. Rushers. That is incredible that he is the one of the most athletic directors. We are going to see. But if we take a look at that that was only the second highest spark in this class, and the first highest is our boy, Ben Ben Agoo from TCU. And I think we need to bring this up because he someone I brought up a couple of times. He's someone I took in our mock draft a couple episodes ago, he was someone I previewed as someone I wanted to watch. This was not something even I was expecting. I still feel like even after this month's workout. I'm still the only person talking about him. But he came in the ninety eight point eight percent tile of sparks nearly the ninety nine th percentile among NFL Edris years. That's ridiculous. He ran a official four six two at two fifty. That's still a one zero nine point seven speed scores. So still well above average. That's good. There had been concerns about his bend. But he ran. An excellent three cone. So obviously, Ken Ben, obviously, he's super athletic, and he has the production that we've brought up multiple times. He was third industries class in in quarterback pressures. He was tied with Josh Allen for the most QB hits that someone if he's still going to be there in the middle rounds. Like, that's how you get value. You now have all that production and now have verifiable athleticism there and a week athleticism. That's absolutely what you should be targeting. So I had a lot invested in the Nobu or Bana goo, I don't even know how to pronounce his name. I'm like the person who's the highest on him. I should probably figure that out. I was fully invested in him before. And now, I'm completely all in. You know, I will say it would not surprise me in the least to see Montas sweat be even if there's a quarterback available. The odds on favourite for the giant. It's at six overall heard through the grapevine going back to the senior bowl when he had to be moved to the end of the rotation. So he would get the least amount of reps to the offensive tackles could actually get some practice in without being destroyed. It heard back then that the giants really like him like they were starting to develop a crush on him. It would not surprise me at all to see him picked at six, and I would not be surprised to see them double down and get Bana goo later in the draft. If he happens to slip past the third round or them, maybe even trying to get up into the third round to get him. That's one thing. Dave Gettleman does do is double up on positions. He is not afraid to let depth or perceived depth F position or lack of depth that another physician influence his choice. If there's a guy that he likes where he sees value. You he will take him. It doesn't matter if he just took another player at the same position. So there's a chance we can see both of those guys in blue next year. If all they drafted Lorenzo Carter who they fell in love with early in the process, and he was an explosive athlete at well. He should have been edged. But Georgia didn't do it do things quite that way. Yeah. And what Carter was someone who had very good speed score. He was at one twenty one point nine that was great that was at a four five forty two hundred fifty pounds. He was not quite as athletic perspec- still incredible in sparked but bag you is is there above him. So we could see I think James Becher has gotten his influence a little bit with the Ed Rogers. He wants I would say rental Carter was probably very influenced by the athleticism better wanted that position. There was obviously development needed there. So. So we'll see how that goes. I would imagine the giants target guys who tested pretty well on the edge. So that's going to probably include Brian burns. He's basically a more polish version of Renzo Carter all the way across the board their virtual clones of each other basically six five to fifty almost thirty four inch arms had four five forty with one five seven ten yard. They were really close. Yeah. And of course, these are guys who might be available at six overall. If the giants don't go with a quarterback, again, we did a whole episode on this. So we talked about most of these guys. I'd sweat and burns a we talked about a bunch of these guys in that episode. And now we just have some testing to put some of those guys in context. So as we move on with other guys who we were really impressed with a lot of this is going to come on the defense. And now part of this. Was his issue that we weren't really expecting to test. Well, and I think just overall it tested much better than we expected. That's the off ball linebacker looking at spark right now. And they're a five off bowl linebackers who tested in the ninetieth percentile or better. So that's super athletic. There was another five that are in the eightieth percentile or better. So this was actually a much more athletic group than we thought and up at the top or the two top linebackers Devon Bush of Michigan and Devon white of LSU. Both of those guys tested. Extremely well. Devon Bush in the ninety eighth percentile of spark Devon white in the ninety fifth percentile. So these guys probably definitely work their way into solidly into the first round. While you could wonder how much stock you put in an inside linebacker in. What way that position carries? In the weed today. I think if you have someone who's super athletic that can be a game changer and Bush white definitely help their case this weekend, yet definitely you know, both of them running in the low four fours. I expected Devon Bush to really show out at the combine watching him on tape. I loved the way he played just full-throttle all the time. And you knew he was athlete because he he just looked like he was playing in fast forward in everybody else was at normal speed to that's where you know, guys are athletic. I knew Devon white was going to be explosive. I did not see his workout coming. He has some work. Do he he really does need to clean up his tackling technique? He's much more of a hitter and kind of get out of control it some time. But when you are explosively athletic as he is. That's kind of easy to do. But they're also a couple of guys who are little bit under the radar. Who impressed me one? I know who got both of us was Ben Burke, Irvine out of Washington. Again, going by spark about eighty fifth watching on tape. You could tell he was instinctive. He's a linebacker. Always takes an accurate. I, but I don't think anybody really saw him having as good a workout as he had. I don't think anybody saw four five forty coming for him or a six eight five three cone that is just ridiculous for a linebacker. Yet was pretty interesting. So I I was putting together just primers of who had what to watch for each position group during the combine over the weekend. Hopefully, you've read them if not go back there still useful information there of what does and really doesn't matter from these workouts. And I started throwing your pre combine top five into the post. And I was like, you know, what maybe all start putting together a pre combine top five and some of them I had to do a lot more work than than others who. Wasn't really into. And when I was digging into the linebackers because I thought this wasn't a super deep class. Ben Brik urban kind of came out as my number three. But again, this is someone even if I was somewhat high on him like that you a we testing was not something I was expecting. But it's good to see that is a possibility because now he someone who every instinct of mixed tackles, not a lot of broken tackles. And he's someone who can cover a mug this draft class per sports solutions. He was had the fifth lowest yards allowed per coverage. Snap in man coverage and the fourth lowest yards allowed per coverage nap in zone. So he's someone who has the ability to cover it. Now, if you have that to get proven athleticism. I think he's a very interesting piece that can go in in the mid around, especially in this class that a we didn't really think we'll be talked about linebackers. We did. Not think this was a deep class that had a many good usable options after the top two guys. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of amazing. How it worked out? It was coming in. It was white Bush, and then basically everybody else, you know, nobody really cared beyond the two Devon's. And then all of a sudden, we've just had this wealth of just ridiculous athletes. La's how did we miss all of this? And it's not just you. And I it was I wanna read a scouting report from Lancer line at NFL dot com. About Blake Cashman at a Minnesota. Who was the third highest spark score six one to thirty seven. He had a spark score of one thirty nine point five which lands him at ninety one point six percentile among NFL linebackers. Really, really good athlete. Tested. Extremely well here. Yours or lines. Scattered report limited will linebacker who isn't big and isn't fast, but place with deter. Nation and a nose for the ball. Former walk on usually have chips on their shoulders that are permanent fixtures and Cashman is no different. He's made the most of every opportunity he's created for himself, but his lack of athletic traits and length create a small margin for error in his play. If he can improve in in taking on blocks and play more instinctively he could have a chance as at backend backup and core special teamer. I think pretty much everyone might have to go back to the tape and take a look at those traits athletic ability. Yeah, it seems there's a couple of guys who did that this weekend. And they a lot of it do probably came from that linebacker because home a what of them tested, a real. Well, so I think we we definitely have some more work to do on inside linebacker a which the giants have Alec tree. But I would still say inside linebacker is quite the need on that Yasser. That's a whole nother thing that we have gotten into before don't need to get into right now. But the so there are just more options at that position dead. We expect it I think another position there is the of line that's going to be another place where the giants even if somehow infre- agency they sign of right tackle, they sign a right guard and maybe science. A center there's going to be an authentic Lyman pick somewhere, at least for depth at the worst. Someone might have to be a starter. If those needs aren't met in free agency on I think, we got a decent amount of guys who impressed along the authentic line. Oh, yeah. The guy who almost took over the day geared bradberry center from North Carolina State. He came in as my top rated center. He's he'll probably be considered strictly zone blocking scheme guy. But I think he's got the strength to handle man GAC, and he just had a fantastic workout he measured extremely well. In all the measurable drills. And. The onfield stuff. He was smooth efficient. He just did everything. Well, Chris Lindstrom from Boston College. Again. He tested extremely well. He had a spark of one twenty three point six which Leonard in the ninety fifth ninety six almost percentile among NFL linemen, and he could probably play. Any interior spot. It was just a really good showing a lotta offense lineman. Yeah. One guy, dude. Caught my eye who was Caleb mcgarry. He's a tackle from Washington came out in the seventy third percentile among authentic Lyman somewhat. He's big he came in at six seven and three seventeen. I have Sam little curious. How guy six foot seven doesn't even have thirty three in charms there. Thirty two point eight inches. That's a little bit interesting to me. But yet six seven length is not an issue. Yeah. Yes. So. Maybe short arms aside in a previous episode of Valentine's view podcast. Ed talked to John Kaminsky who also talk about kids, he had quite impressive workout himself in. He asked him during the senior bowl who were some of the toughest authentic, vitamin A. He went against and Caleb mcgarry came up as his answer. He's not a guy that really we've talked about a lot not a person. I don't I don't think has been widely discussed, but he came in a tested, very, well when you add that into how opponent view him. He's not someone who's going to go in the first round. So if you have that caliber type of player, you might be available later in the draft. That's something to look out for. Yeah. And I think that is where the giants might have to look for their offense of line depth. Maybe a guy caught my eye just before the draft is a wake for a scarred. Phil Hanes six with three and a half inches, but three hundred twenty two pounds. Good athlete per size came out with a one nine point five spark seventy first percentile. Good arm length powerful, dude, though, just complete people mover. And you know, he isn't getting a whole lot of talk. So he might be somebody. They could find on with one of those fourth round picks and say they do role with Jim on Brown. But he doesn't improve in his second year. Maybe you could have that guy who come in either push him or just replace him straight out. Yeah. It's it's certainly possible. And it's probably going to be where the giants are looking at again, kind of depending on the agency. But not sure they're gonna go offense of lime in in the first not even sure if they're gonna go in the second, I guess if they have to they will. But I think maybe you're trying to hit some of these developmental guys in the fourth and later, and that is going to be a tough thing. But if you're going to do that you want to try to bet on athleticism a little bit. So that's where these guys are gonna come in. I'm music colleges. Nate Sloan songwriter. Charlie harding. We're the hosts of switched on pop the podcast where Charlie and I breakdown pop hits to reveal how the music works. And why it matters. It's our job to help you find those hob moments within the music, whether you're a pop fanatic or skeptic, a teenager or an octogenarian non musician or professional composer every music lover. Will discover something you're opening in switched on pop yet. And we think you'll have a lot of fun with us because you're going to get to hear from amazing guest musicians. Songwriters producers in journalists. Listen to switch on pop every week starting in March on the apple podcast app or wherever you get your podcasts. Everybody to tell at an chief of the verge. I has podcast every week called the verge Hass my friends, Paul Miller, indeed or bone. We've got a rotating cast of characters from our entire site, which is about technology, how it impacts culture, and how that is all a big cycle that causes us to have a wide variety of feelings that you can listen to every Friday we've done over three hundred episodes in six years since avert has been around. But you'll need to listen to one the latest one to get caught up on everything. In tech news virtuous is on apple podcasts. Spotify everywhere else. You listen to podcasts. Check it out. Yes. So why don't we go to some guys who I don't know maybe weren't on our radar at all really, but damn well should be now, you know, you mentioned John Kaminsky. He was one of the first defensive lineman who really raised eyebrows. On Sunday he measured in at six five to eighty six. But then he went and ran a four six nine forty with a one six one ten yard split. So just to put that in perspective Aaron Donald at two hundred eighty pounds six foot one two hundred eighty pounds had a four six eight second forty with about I believe it was a one six three ten yards split. So that is from somebody most people at least the people who don't listen to big movie radio app. Probably never even heard of that is just an incredible workout. And they just got better from there yet. He's someone who's the workout and someone again from most we played D too. So he someone who is now getting into the spelt light more. And it's very clear that someone who should be paid attention to a little more as we go forward. And I think a one guy of for me somewhat who I came into way. I don't think we've discussed them on this podcast at all. But again when I was putting together my pre combine top fives per position as I was previewing each group. This is a guy who jumped into the top five for me at cornerback. And that's Djamil dean of Auburn. He's someone who was able to excel in man endzone at Auburn. He came in at six one two six seventy seven inch wingspan so the toll long arms, and then he came in and ran a four. Three and then had some excellent jumps. We don't have sparked numbers for coroners right now. But I am expecting that to come out real. Well, so someone who is tall is very fast has lung arms. You want on the outside excels in both zone. And man, he's someone who is now a jumping up on my radar boy than he was before. The combine the issue with him is he's had a pretty extensive injury history in his knees. But I think he had a forty one inch vertical eve ran a four three. So I think at the moment that need is not look like a concern obviously team. Doctors are going to be deep in his medicals to see if there are long-term concerns, but it doesn't seem to be affecting him right now. So he's someone I think could maybe be there in round two. And if that's where the giants wanna go again, remember they used a third round on Sam Bill and going back and previewing the corner. Bax for the combine. I went back and looked at the numbers that Sam Buell put up in his pro day. And of course, pro day, not the same controlled environment as the combine. But I think we kind of forget Sam Buell was super athletic. He had one run that was tested at four four which is incredible. He hadn't love arms. He's over six foot. So it same Beale has that athleticism that you would want in a corner. So I think we have brought Sam Beal up a bunch on this podcast. But we haven't actually talked about how athletic he was. So that's something that's going to be brought and again if the giants do need to work on the secondary. They're not afraid to double up. So I wouldn't be surprised to see a cornerback in the second maybe Djamoldine, or if rocky scene is still there. The key tested. Very well. So we could see that happened in that might be the sweet spot for one of those positions. I think that could also be where they look for a free safe. Thirty. I doubt your guy. John gardner. Johnson is going to be there in the second could see had himself a pretty darn good day. In fact, I think I'll get into this. When we get to the players who kind of disappointed us over the weekend. But I thought the for the most part the safeties. Well, outperform the Cornerbacks at one point. I tweeted de safeties. No they're supposed to be slower than the corners. Because for the most part, they were faster and a lot of them had just really good workouts? But there were some some of those small school corners who I think raise their profiles profiles nicely had is AM Johnson out of Houston. He ran I believe who's a four four. He's had some of the longest arms. They are. They mentioned measured thirty three inches in like you said both James bet your Dave Gettleman like long arms in their corners. So I think that will catch their I n he's a former wide receiver. So. He's got some bowl skills. Another converted wideout Justin lane from Michigan state. He had pretty much everybody talking with his workout six foot two, but still move really well, and then another small school guy. Jordan Brown of South Dakota state. I don't think I heard anybody mentioned him before the combine he only had a four five one, which is not great. But at a thirty nine inch vertical almost linen foot fraud, jump and I thought he looked good in the field drills and track the bowl. Well on the drills are supposed to simulate an interception and one less. One was I Sean bunting from central Michigan again, another big long press, man corner. And that's kind of what James Becher St. is built on is having corners who can disrupt those quick passes and basically Dion island. So he can dial up those blitzes and. And send extra guys really get pressure. Which were thinks he just was not able to do last year. I ended he's still blissed, but has gone over a couple times the secondary really let them down. Yes. So between the corner and safety. There's going to be boarded one defensive back drafted by the giants should be. I there shouldn't. I think as as we continue to see how these defensive players tested. If Dave Gettleman is very much the best player of vailable type of drafter. And again, we've said he kind of is that even to a fault. It's possibly hard to see how many picks they're going to have where offense if player is going to be the best available on their board. Because there's a lot of good defensive talent. Here they do need to fix the defensive talent. Obviously, not a great position. When your biggest need on the team is quarterback. But I'm going to expect a whole lot of defensive picks in the strapped. So while we talk about that think we've gotten a decent about of guys who impressed us and will continue to talk about those guys good to a couple of guys who disappointed because that was that was hard to do. There was a lot of good testing. So if you did not test, well, you really stood out. And I think the first guy we have to jump to. Here is polite. The address at a fly. And this is even without getting into whatever went on with his interviews where he said most of the teams just kind of bashed him during the interviews and showed him bad plays of his won't even put that to the side right now, but polite did not have a good on field workout came in with just a four eight four forty at two hundred fifty eight pounds. That's a speed score of ninety four. That's actually not terrible. It's definitely below average. It's not what you would like to see someone who's supposed to have this. Great explosion. And then you put everything else together he did with spark and he came out in just the fourteenth percentile one four. That's that's obviously not what you wanna see especially for someone who was projected to maybe be early first round. I'm not sure if he goes in the first round at all right now, I someone you have to really have a strong conviction of his tape. If you think he. He's still deserves to be there. And then after that just go and back to his like his production seventeen and a half tackles for loss. Good yet. Sixteen have run stuffs for only fifteen quarterback hits a thirty eight pressures was you know, decent. But I don't think that's crazy overall production. I mean, thirty eight pressures was only nineteenth in this edge class. So that's not overwhelming production. That makes you overlook or why he didn't do at the combine. So he someone I now have the major concerns with them probably not gonna consider him in that top tier of edge rusher. No, I unless he really turns it around with just a dominant pro day. I'm not sure he might an I had him as my number three rated edge just based off his tape because on his tape. He looked like a stick dynamite. He probably had the best first step in the. Class and his ability to just fire off the line beat tackles two landmarks in flattening bend around the edge were maybe a maybe the best in the class on tape. And then he added weight for the combine because I know there were there were concerns about his size. But it looked like it was just not good, wait. He looked a lot softer than I was expecting. And he had a one high one seven ten yards. But I think it was a one seven seven, and I just did not see that from him on tape. I thought it was going to be about one five maybe one five five on tape. So he said afterwards that after he shut his workout down. He said he had a hamstring injury. There were I think just overall this was one of the disappointing things required. A few of those guys who claimed at least to have nagging injuries. After they shut their workouts down. And I don't know. It was just such a discrepancy for me between his tape in his workout that unless he really shows are unless you really has strong pro day, he could rob a rock. I mean, maybe even down the that third tier of pass rushers because pass rusher is a position where you just have to have athletes, and there's just no other way around a out unethical pass rushers do not win in the NFL. Now, we talked before the combine said how important was Ford edge rushers. Maybe the combine is the most important for EDF rushers just because that athleticism his needed. And so for him to not have a good workout does start to raise some red flags than you. Go back and look at some of the production that the wasn't there or at least doesn't right? Level the other better players in this class. So that kind of just starts to make you wonder so to move on who were some other players that that you might have been disappointed by their workouts? I've got to their about tied in disappointment. No, probably the bigger one was greedy Williams, cornerback out of LSU. I was expecting him to come in and just dominate because even though he had some inconsistencies on his in his tape. You could tell he is it just ridiculous athlete and east outs. He started out with a really good run. I think he had a four three seven on the forty. But it just went downhill from there on the field. It didn't look like he had any idea what he was doing. He was just out of control who's tight hipped his feet were all over the place. And and then he was the one who shut it down early this time he said he was cramping up. I was just very disappointed in him. I thought he could've worked himself into being a lock as a top ten pick end yet. He through the entire top of the cornerback depth chart into question with that workout. And then my other one was probably a break little way back. On the first day of the combine the offense tackle from omiss? And he passed the test with flying colors. He looks like an NFL GM ordered him out of a catalog but then on the field. He was just kinda slow and sloppy and not great feat. And again, just disappointing in the on field trills by contrast. You on Taylor was confirmed to be working through an injury. And he looked still much better yet so much more. Effort and intensity. More the highlights of the weekend. For me was when Taylor drew Dolan reisner in the mirror drill and reisner basically tried to run him into the ground use fronting back and forth full speed. And even though it was hurt Taylor kept up. He looks good. You you almost wouldn't have known that he was working through an injury. So to me that made Little's performance just even more disappointing. Yeah. Little was someone who came in and tested Indy. Thirty eighth percentile in sparks. That's obviously, not great. Do you like to see a little better there? He's probably the best one throw Jody Williams in there too. I'm not quite as concerned with him. But seventeenth percentile in spark is a little alarming for Joan Williams. I think his tape. Chose a little better than that. You would think a so I'm less concerned about Williams than I would be about little, but yeah. Overall, just for two of the top potential offensive tackles, did not great workout, the greedy Williams thing is interesting because came out ran that four three seven think if you look at spilled one of the things that isn't quite as good as he he can't allow some of those really quick open throws to get to sometimes the slants. And and some more throws when he's playing off allow some those front of him, he'll make the tackle usually. But that's kind of where you can work him early into snap. And then some of those other drills kinda showed why that's the case. And then he came out and didn't participate in bunch of them. But I mean, he came into my number three corner. I think I'd probably still have him there. But I do like the Andre Baker and Byron Murphy, just a little more. But. Williams is the taller end in pretty long arms. So he'll have a preference in some draft rooms because of that. And I think a lot of teams will still look at four three seven and think about what that means and still have him pretty high on Boyd's. And that's kind of what you can do you you let this combine you all these workouts be a piece in shape of your evaluation. I'm going to wait these workouts a lot more for some players in some positions than others. And that's what teams are going to figure out. Can we still have two months before the draft road as are going to be coming up? So we'll see some new numbers. See how some of these guys did work a from the combine see if they improved or if they didn't. So that'll be something to watch. The we have a lots of look forward to you got also the free agencies. There's a lot going on a lot of stuff come in Shari. So we're. Going to end today's episode. They're you can subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcast. Please rate review. If you have not that helps us greatly fall a work on big review dot com. You can follow big view on Twitter at being blue view, followed the view on Instagram at big underscored, blue underscore view. You follow me on Twitter at damp Zuta? You fall Chris on Twitter at raptor MK. I thank you guys for listening, and we will talk to you again soon. Mama's Spencer hall by name is Jason Kirk. My name is Ryan nanny combined. We form the shutdown full stran- keep telling you, we're not this forecast is technically college football podcast. But it's also a show about care disaster regional grocery stores. We love Tennessee Batman, homeowners associations bears video games. Pittsburgh Batman, the hell of being trusted group. Text unreliable legal advice. I mean, there's also some actual football discussion about coaches, having used contracts coaches making terrible decisions or coaches, saying really stupid things or the NC double A's saying released. Yeah, there's lots of stupid things in this big dome. Beautiful sport time Arkansas decided to use a captured feral hog as a mascot, and it escaped and it wound up killing seven rattlesnakes a pig and a Coyote, sometimes we talk about okay alleged with if you wanna. Take college football exactly as seriously as it deserves to be taken come find us on apple podcasts Spotify or wherever else you listen to podcasts like this one the forecast, it's not voltron unless it is.

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Deep Dish presents The Coral Courts Radio hour with Brad Schreiber PART 1

Deep Dish Radio with Tim Powers

1:25:00 hr | 3 years ago

Deep Dish presents The Coral Courts Radio hour with Brad Schreiber PART 1

"The coral courts, radio hour. I'm Tim powers in this is my musical mix tape off ordinary. It's it's a gift from me to you. But today I start something new and something that hopefully you will be part of as we as we go through this. I'm inviting friends of mine into the studio to talk about music. It's shape their life. It's changed their lives. That's altered the course of their lives that they just dig. And today my friend, Brad Schreiber joining with joining me today, and he's picked up about about a dozen cuts that we're going to go through that are important him kind of a musical journey through Brad's life, Brad's an author and and musical journalists, and actually, why don't I let you introduce yourself. Hi bran. Well, hi, I'm so glad to finally do this and talk about these eleven cuts that I brought that mean a lot to me in many different ways. Yeah. Sometimes I actually have interacted with the artists sometimes. It's soft goal. It's about production. It's about lyrics. It's about. Five seconds of music within that song that you gotta check out your various ways of kind of connecting to these eleven songs and tell them I connect to three or four ways as sick, right music for those of us who really love music, whether it's rock and roll or whether it's a Jonah or or across the John Ross, it just hits you. You know, it's you spiritually in that in that spot. And do you remember the moment where where where the light came on for you, where you're like, this is really, this is something else. There's something something happened here that I really want to know more about. Well, actually I've got selections from the fifties, sixties seventies the nineties and seventeen twenty two. So. And weirdly enough to answer your question. Yes, a light came on regarding the cut that we're going to hear from seventeen twenty two. Great. We're not going to hear that I however, but it has to do with my father and the first music I ever heard, which was classical music. And as you'll see, as we go through this list, there are connections to be made between the first music I heard in film love with from my father's LP's and rock and roll and other music that utilizes classical structure. But there's a little bit of everything on here. We got comedy music. We got classical, we've got Christian metal, lookout baby. We got a little bit of. Okay. So tell us tell us your story beyond beyond of course professionally, where did you grow up? You know. Hold are. You were which come from? I. From beyond angry. Did I come from? I'm actually from New York City city's born in east seventies in New York Presbyterian hospital, which proud to say is where the Shah of Iran and Richard Nixon both died. We live in a tiny town called new city, which is a famous place in that a lot of show biz people live there, then commuted to Manhattan. Right. All right. So you actually had a Bertolt Brecht Kurt vile lot Elena who lived there, you know, in the forties and fifties. Then later on, you had people like Lauren Bacall and Mikhail Baryshnikov who lived in new sitting would commute to Manhattan. It was beautiful, little quiet community. And then evidently we moved to California. That's that those were my roots, loving going into the big city on the weekend and during the week, living in a very small town in and it was just bucolic it. It was wonderful. So I've always loved that line between city living and privacy and quiet. Wow. And so and you said your dad turned you onto classical music, you know is, is that the environment that you grew up in where it was you know there was there was a a love of classic arts. Well, actually tell you, we're going to get more into that, but I but I will tell you this much. I don't want to tell you the name of the artist yet, Chris, some suspense here, but dad had a collection of classical music him and it was phenomenal. And mom had world music course. They did not refer to it as world music, right? But we're talking about Miriam Makeba and Theodore mckell, and you know what? Harry Belafonte did for calypso music in US culture. So she had that and she had Broadway show tunes. So this is the first music I'm listening and whatever's on the jukebox in. Diners in Rockland county, New York before you know in of course, I know that Elvis's out there and there's rock and roll, but is very young person. My first experience is classical music music from other cultures and Broadway show tunes and film soundtracks from my parents collection. What years? What's the? What's the time era that we're talking about? We're talking about sixties, you know, late fifties, early sixty. Okay, pre Beatles right elapse. So everything changed for me when we not only moved to California but the Beatles. Yeah. Yeah, we're gonna will. I'm certain we'll get into that and I would imagine and their two cuts by the way starting to rub. Yeah, there are two cuts from nineteen sixty seven that are very different, but nineteen sixty seven for me personally. And I believe in terms of Musicology was a very pivotal year. Oh, you're not kidding. We could talk forever about about what mounting, six. Seven? Yeah, let's get into our first cut, which which I will let you tee up. Well, I we have not. So surprisingly since I am, I co wrote the book becoming Jimi Hendrix. Yeah, so that's his early years. And before he was discovered, of course, like coming back from Europe appearing at Monterey and just blowing people's minds as the kids are want to say. So driving south is a song that he didn't even right? Yeah. All right. So Curtis Knight Curtis night in the Squires. Curtis Knight takes a couple of pieces from Albert Collins and and blends. The riffs sort of throws him into the mix master and blends the rips and says, okay, Jimmy, do your thing now they're to alise two or three versions of driving south. It's an instrumental, right? No lyrics. The definitive one for me is what we're gonna listen to today. And the funny thing is when Jimmy was on the chitlins circuit and used it to the south, you know, with Kirstein than with other groups to he, he actually would have Curtis night call out names of towns in the south while Jimmy would do the licks. So he's doing this driving intense soloing. Yeah, and curse would go out bumming ham MoMA, you know, and call out the nays and also the same time. Jimmy is learning to be more of a showman. This early sixty. Yeah, this is before of course, the experience and he's literally doing the thing of eating the guitar right nibbling on the strings. And apparently there are recordings although not commercially released, and certainly this existed in the chitlins circuit where while Jimmy was biting the strings Kerr's would yell out, eat it, eat it, eat that guitar. And then you've got the calling out, you know, it's a Colo. Him, so a must have been completely insane. And then as you'll hear for me, this is this is nineteen sixty seven. This recording from the BBC. This recording for me is not well known, but it seminal because it's going to tell you everything that Jimi Hendrix inevitably is going to do to popular music. You have the propulsion. You have his knowledge of rhythm and blues, right? But very interestingly, it's also an early moment when someone who's playing are and be very fast is interjecting controlled feedback, and it's the musicality of controlled feedback within the Johner of ARIN b, which nobody really was doing and when you listen to it when you get to about the three minute Mark of this. Now, again, this is the experience even though he used to tour. You know, nine in the Squires you know, this is the Jimi Hendrix experience. So Mitch Mitchell has a drum break, and then there's this burst this short norrowly metallic wonderful musical burst from Jimmy's guitar. And then he takes a song that's all ready been proposal to another level and you can't go any faster than this. It can't be any more energetic and it, and it makes that leap and to put it in the context of of what you told me. The source for this is this is recorded. Live in one take at the BBC studios right? Where it's mixed specifically for radio. So it's it's Montreal, and it's mixed by these. These very stodgy, BBC engineers, right? There's a lot of stuff has come out recently from the BBC archives. So there's the rhino just put out a Led Zeppelin album from the BBC archives, the legendary Beatles cuts, the turtles, you know. For the one hour of popular music that they could play at the time they brought these bands in a one of it is is really archival recording done by these stodgy, old engineers in their suits and ties, and I can just imagine you know the experience coming in and just blow. I stay. What does that man doing behind the micro exactly expect their raw, the different, isn't it. We're done misunders. Music is quite pleased. I'm sure the useful. Enjoy that without further ado. Then James Marshall Hendrickson the experience right here on deep dish radio. Man, there is something about the, you know, when you just hear piece of music and the hair on your arms stands up, you know you, you got something Jimi Hendrix on the coral courts, radio, our Tim powers over here, Brad Schreiber over there. And we're going through Brad's musical history, man driving south Jimi Hendrix recorded. Live at the BBC was, is that sixty seven? That is in, you know, I don't think that the Jimi Hendrix experiences quite the same without a former jazz drummer. You know, you listen to song like fire, wonderful as Jimmy's work is it doesn't have the same propulsion and energy with without mitch's drumming and his very inventive and for rock and roll. It has more complexity than typical rock and roll drumming because he was a jazz guy. Yeah. And same, I think is true for driving south. Oh, it's so I mean, the. The baseline is just so powerful and and not you know, for a cut like that when you have to take when you have to stand behind Jimmy. Right? And you're the bass player. I would imagine, you know, for your average bass player, you just wanna hold the line down, right? You just want to hold it together and you know there's, there's quarter notes and there's eighth notes, and there's, you know, little riffs in between lines that that just fill the bottom of what Jimmy's doing way up top that make out God what a beautiful. Thank you so much for saying so. And again, you know, let's knowledge that no reading was going to be a lead guitars had been lead guitarist, and now he's. Playing bass behind the most phenomenal electric guitars in history. Yeah, if you if you're judging it, of course, we did a previous interview and you say, how do you say the best in anything? And I said, well, you categorize it, you say, who manipulated feedback in rock and roll better than anybody in its Jimi Hendrix. And you can say, you know, who's a great rock blues guy. You know, you can talk about Clapton so forth, right? So in that sense, you can say that in his own way, Jimmy was the greatest in terms of not only using feedback, but I think and this is the purpose of driving south. The lending are in be structure with psychedelia and straight ahead rock and roll. And I mean, that is such such an ideal cut to illustrate point. I mean, it's really version the listen to ten. There is another one and yet. I kind of wish I'd been on the Chilean circuit listening to Kurdish night going, you know, you know, Cam eat it guitar. Jimmy. Oh my Lord, but we miss, we miss them stuff, and we are lucky that this material you know survived, especially in the form that it is. I mean, the BBC recordings are so clean. They're almost antiseptic. Yes, but Jimmy comes in and gets it rock and roll dirty, which is just, oh, so perfect. Yes, I'm very happy. You're right. I really am happy. We have those BBC sessions. 'cause then you hear them, you know, go into the studio when they get the album deal. Yeah. And then they're playing with all kinds of stuff and sometimes is lovely and complex, but there's something very clear in terms of composition about what they did at the BBC's. Those guys with skinny ties is up Todd English people, but it's very present is very clean and you and you come to understood. Sand that sounds better than a live recording, and it's not as overly complicated as studio recording when they get their deal. There's this interesting middle ground when these groups worked at the BBC. There's a cut like this. That is so exemplary of what Jimmy can do. If if you're encountering a new fans your, you know your fourteen year old nephew just got his first. You know, knock off Stratocaster and you're like here. Let me show you something. Yeah, we're, where would you start him? Would you show him? Would you show him footage film footage? Would you show him the Woodstock concert would get him some some early albums? Would you get emigrated hits package? Where where would you start as a very good question? And I don't wanna seem, you know, confrontational or argumented, but in a way I almost feel like if I'm turning somebody onto Jimi Hendrix for the first time, I don't want them to look at Jimmy, not at first because he has such a magnetism and presence. And of course he's got all the tricks that he did. Right? I want them to. Listen to the music and again, this controlled feedback. Yeah. So you know, driving south. I'm a big fan of his very first album because Chas Chandler controlled his inventiveness. So you know, you get something as crazy as third stone from the sun. What is not nine minutes long. It's confined an insane and wonderful. And you know, then of course, I would turn them onto Jimmy d later on when he's producing himself. Yeah, you know, access and other other, you know, and then say, okay, now that you can see how inventive became and what his technique could do now, look at what he did on stage is a whole other separate thing. Yeah, because you could be swayed by seeing the guy, you know, biding the strings plane behind his back, all the things that he picked up in Nashville because he wanted to, you know, compete with all the other really great pickers right when he was in a house van in Nashville, and now look at. The white fringy outfit and the amazing clothes and fire. Yeah, but I listen to technique and that's why driving south for me is a great place to start. Excellent point. All right. You ready to move on track to track to Tim is completely different from Jimi Hendrix. This is Peggy Lee seeing. He's that all there is. Yeah. Now I'm an early teenager when I I hear this. This is nineteen sixty nine and it was a bit of Kismet because yesterday I was having iced coffee with my dear friend, Ken Dyfi who's a very talented musician and without my bringing up our podcast recording today. Yeah, he had worked for Lieber installer who f- and he brought up the song title is that all there is an bolt of lightning through said, oh my God, I to be talking to Tim powers tomorrow, and that's one of the. Songs. So here's the story just through a quirk of fate. I wouldn't have been able to tell you except for by chance. So when Kim was working with LeBron Stoler in New York, he talked to them about the production of lots of songs. It turns out that there were thirty two takes of is that all there is how ironic is that all there is thirty takes by by Peggy Lee, right? The thirty. Second according to Jerry Lieber was not only the take to use. It was the according to his opinion. Okay. It's just his opinion. He's just a musical genius. What is he? No, right? The best vocal performance he had ever heard in his life and it's a record that he's making right, right. So they go out. He and Mike go out, have a drink. They go, okay, that's the one we want. The comeback. The tape op has accidentally erased. Take thirty two. Of is that all there is again what an ironic title. So Jerry goes to the head of the the recording studio, whoever that was and says, listen, this was one of the most amazing performances in your tape up wiped it. So what we're gonna do is we're going to go in and take the previous thirty one takes and we're going to cut them all together phrases words until we get as good of take as we want and we are going to take as long as we want and you're not gonna charge as a penny in the studio head said, yeah, I'm sorry about this. You know, take your time, right. So what we're hearing is over a hundred different tiny edits of thirty one takes from Peggy Lee. Okay, so that's can dive extort, right? So digest that. And now here's Brad's. Take on it. Popular music, you know, Rosemary Clooney, Frank Sinatra type stuff that I'm hearing when I'm an early team. Okay. I have a certain expectation of song structure. Then I hear this music and it starts off with these melancholy very strange strings. So here's a little. Here's a little question for you, and you got a giant musical brain who did the ranging on this. These sad, sweet melancholic strings behind Peggy Lee. It's Randy Newman get out. Yeah. So you've got what Randy Newman does. You've got this smokey sexy, but kind of tragic voice. The lyrics are about her disappointment in life leading up to an actual mention of suicide in a pop song. Okay. That doesn't happen everyday. Does it only if your only if your blue eyes. Yes, Peggy Lee and blue. I stir cul together for the first time. I can't wait to see that. So we've got all of that stuff and then you, there's a moment in the sewn that you'll hear toward the end where she interrupts herself and she's talking to the listener to, no, I'm not going to give up because I know went on my win on my death bed. I'm going to be saying, so it's this weird, twisted tragic vision, a sexy voice. Ah, tragic voice. These wonderful, sad strings. You're constantly surprised by the song itself. And yet if you just took the chorus of, is that all there is you could hear Frank Sinatra doing it. And yet this song which of course was done previous right? This is the definitive for me, the definitive version of it, and it just blows your expectations of as to what a pop. After song could be in nineteen sixty nine. So you know if this was recorded in in New York or LA I believe it was in New York. Unfortunately, I don't have all those details. I have all these weird associations and of course cans. Wonderful story about take thirty two, which sadly will will never be able to hear. And yet at the same time, the idea that there's hundred little cuts, piecing it together, it feels and he and listens seamlessly when you listen to. Now let me give you some perspective folks. This is nineteen sixty nine. They are cutting one inch tape with a razor blade in a in a smoky room. Probably in the in the RCA Victor, you know, mastering studio, you know, in New York right off. Tin pan alley and they're literally with a razor blade and splicing tape putting this together. So on the crow courts, radio hour today, you've just had your mind blown by the Jimi Hendrix. Experience and now prepare to have your mind blown by Peggy Lee. I remember when I was a little girl, our house Conan fire. Never forget the look on my father's face. He gathered me up his arms race to the burning building on the pavement. And I stood, they shivering in my pajamas. And what's the world up in flames when it was all over. I said to myself. Is that all there is to. Is that the. Is that the. That. It's Dan thing that's very boo. That's. And when I was twelve years old, my daddy took me to this. Great. Is. Clouds elephants dancing and a beautiful lady in pink tights, food, high of heads. Watching had the feeling that something was missing. I want. All over. I said. Other to the circus is that all there is. Is that all the. That's. Friends. It's Dan saying, let's Brig boom. If that's. And then I fell in. The most wonderful. We take long walks down by the river. Just sit for hours gazing into each other's is it was so very much. Then when they went away. But I didn't. When my didn't I said to myself is. Is that all day. Is that all the. In that. It's. I know what you must be saying you. So if that's the way she feels about what isn't she just ended up. Oh, no, not me. I'm not ready for that final disappointment because I know this does well as I'm standing here talking. When that final moment goes and I'm reading my last breath. I'll be saying to myself, is that. Is that all the. Dancing, let's break out the booze. If that's. He. Man, Peggy Lee on the coral courts, radio hour. I did the research while that was well, that was way and find out couple of things. One, it's on capitol records. Okay. And which means that that's the capitol records orchestra that backed Sinatra, but man, you can hear Randy Newman's fingerprints all over that arrangement is, you know his tremendous, it really is, and it's and it's a beautiful arrangement. They are so so tight behind her and just the perfect. I mean, the arrangement was obviously done specifically for Peggy Lee, but it doesn't get any more perfect. And that, you know, again, you know, that's production stuff. And the emotional stuff for me is kind of what connected me to. Instead, I want him to play this on his body cast because. My expectation, as I said earlier of what this kind of music was completely changed. When I heard is that all there is and it so Iran ick because I never listened to Peggy Lee. Generally her other music didn't do much for me. And yet this particular song just made me pull back and go. This is so exciting to me that you can fool people with what seems like a very middle of the road pleasant song by a crooner quote, unquote, and completely twist it. And I think that's why LeBron Stoler felt it was one of their best works if not their best piece. And when you think about it being, you know the, the vocal track being Frankenstein together, you know it is. So it's it's perfect. You can only imagine how transcended that thirty second take was. Because I use the word transcendent minute ago, but it was in my head because I was thinking about how a lot of this what was considered pop music in in the mid sixties. This won the Grammy for best female pop vocal in sixty nine. You look at what she's up against, you know your your Julie, London, and your, you know, you're, you're Leslie Adams who are fine singers, but they. Juxtaposed with what we just heard from Hendrix a lot of that sound like you know the the lounge at the Holiday Inn by the airport? Yeah. And this is this beautiful record? Yeah, it's something also Tim that connects to Assan that we're gonna hear later. Yeah, which is a beautiful love song. And yet it also has a dark undercurrent to it. So here, you know what we just heard, of course, with Peggy is a song that if you're just listening, not to the lyrics but to the quality of her voice and the music, it sounds lush and beautiful, and it sounds like it's just a love song and it's really about someone who has lost all faith in life and even is contemplating suicide. And that intrigues me when you don't do a love song that's binary. It's all about sex and or love. Or it's about heartbreak, right? I'm miserable. When you kind of find a middle ground between those two in asong that is a love song or a love hate song as it were. And their couple of examples of that that I strove to find that we're gonna get to wow, this this powerful record mines are being blown all over the place as a result of somebody's gotta clean that up. Courts, radio our, we're with Brad Schreiber today, author breads fiber going through his musical history, and we're coming up on cut number three. What do we have? What we're talking about a personal history of music, and they're in a ways nothing more personal on this list than Theodore kill doing a Russian folk song, at least in the style of Russian folks on that. He did called Nicio, which means nothing. Now, remember I said that I used to listen to my mom and dad's record collection and had a profound effect upon me. So I listened to a lot of Theodore Cal, which my mother had, and it's impact was on a boy of five years old. Say he kind of five or six years old. The idea that you can listen to a piece of music with lyrics, not understand the lyrics and get an emotional response from it. And, and then if you want to you try and find out what is the song about in terms of Lear, but in a way you get from the music and the intonation of the voice, the intent without understanding the words. Now, that's the first thing that I got from hearing Nicio from Theodore Cal and don't forget the arbuckle who was born in Haifa. Israel saying in like fourteen different languages. I mean he was phenomenal. Any could sing in any language with the appropriate accent so that you thought, oh, he singing a song, a Spanish song called those Cosco allies. And you'd say, oh, this is a Spanish guy. If you didn't know him, you listen to Nietzsche VO, which will do soon as I stopped talking which may never never happen. Yeah, we got plenty of and and you say, I've never heard this guy who's is rushing. I were listening to, he's not rushing. So his ability to get. The intonation and the accent of each language he's singing in is unparalleled. And then there's a third thing about the kill that completely knocked me out and that is that he would sing not only in the appropriate accent and he could speak the language, but he understood culturally. This is really hard to get your brain around is why I'm so impressed by theater kills work. He could understand culturally what the music is about to the people in the case of Russian people. Russian culture is often about a very high standard of the arts. You know, they have a great history of a music and drama and specially literature, but also there's a deep cynicism in Russian people, a feeling that life is never going to get much better or if it's going, okay. Look. Around the corner. 'cause there's more misery coming your way. You know, it's that old. Oh, there's a light at the end of the tunnel, and it's an oncoming train. Okay. That's what Russian culture is about. When you understand that they lost twenty to twenty five million people in World War Two. You come to realize that's not going to change very soon living under Putin who kills journalists, who disagree with him the people culturally in their music express this cynicism. So Nicio nothing is about nothing. I'm gonna get nothing out of life because my heart's broken sort of song you hear moments of delight in kills voice. You'll hear the song where he goes and I add, I, you know, there's a joy very folk music. He joy to his ways, and then it stops dead. And he goes back to a somber. Mournful voice and vacillates in the song. It is a perfect example of how the Cal, even though he's not run that country understands culturally what their music and their philosophy of life is about. We're going to check out the voice as an instrument with eater, Bacall right here on the crow courts, radio hour. Travel when you travel. Yes, no. But. These chile. Who says you will. Lucia law. Shine on the little gun. I've see. See you. Some wash meow. To joe. Yes. Chill. Look, somewhat. You'll be at the center. Lettuce. To all. Whistle. Let's I go seeing. As a whole. Then you some washes, neon. You see. Tila goal. Someone you'll be left to said, walk. They didn't. Let this. And that is a powerful track that is powerful. It means so much to me on a personal level not only because my mother Mona is the one who turned me onto the orbit kill from her record collection when I was five years old, but the family went to see him in the sixties at Berkeley community theatre sat next to my mom, and we were just so filled with joy and then not to brag because it's kind of sad, and it's not really bragging rights, but I probably did one of the last if not the last interview with the orbit kill when he was performing here in Los Angeles with Peter and Paul, Peter, Paul and Mary, wow, and I had the joy of telling him how much his music men to me when I was five years old listening to those albums and complimented him on the fact that I believe he could sing in soi Healy if he needed to. It's not one of the languages he sang in, right, but at least a dozen Tim. At least a dozen different languages. Any made each one, his own, how how did that? I mean, obviously, you complimented him thoroughly in that meeting? Yeah. How did he respond? He loved in my favorite moment actually in the Peter, Paul and THEO interview is, you know, I asked Peter and Paul about their work and then ask the about his work. And then of course, because I had worked with Frank Zappa there was this moment where I said, so tell me about working on two hundred motels with Frank Zappa and Peter and Paul's jaws hit their chests. They went what the turn to the orb accounts that you worked with. Frank Zappa. I, I was Ron Sma HAMAs and two hundred motels work with Frank who is crazy, but brilliant, you know, and they just couldn't believe it. So not only did I get a great response at a kill. I turn Peter and Paul onto a fact they didn't know about the guy they were performing. That's pretty cool. That's really cool. So I, I love that moment and he was gone, maybe a month a month and a half later while, wow, it is the the through line through the the two vocal cuts is the power of the voice as an instrument. You know, the -bility to to rela- emotion, lyrics, notwithstanding, and you know that it's there and the fact that this song was able to hit you at, you know, at five, right from an emotional standpoint. I mean, you're you're arguably three years into being verbal, right? So. You're still developing your communication skills and your empathy level is at a five year olds level, right? A minor key will move you to tears. Well, it's funny. I'm so glad you brought that up because I was once a speaker at a writers conference. Yeah, and it was talking about the role of the writer in society and that we have to take responsibility for dealing rejection and pain and push through it and keep going and not let it crush us and stop us from success. And the example I used was a musical example the on on YouTube. There's an image of like a four year old boy in the back seat of a car listening to a song by an artist. I don't even know it's kind of a sad sweet song. Right? And you can't see the father. You're only looking, it's fixed camera and you're looking at the boy in the backseat and and you're hearing the song from the car stereo. The boy starts to cry. You hear the father. Voice go, oh, what's what's wrong Honey? And the boy goes is such a sad song and the potty go, oh, you wanna to take it on. And the boy goes, no. Don't take it off in the father's puzzled what it's making. You cry a switch it to something else. He goes, no, no, no. Leaving on the tears are pouring down his face. He's gasping this kid who is like four years old. It's confronting something so profound that it's okay to be moved to tears by something and you don't avoid it because it is an artistic experience and it's a spiritual experience. And so that's the example I used with writers where you get rejected and you wanna stop writing. Look at that kid who's four years old crying going. No, I wanna hear the song. There's a purpose to being made that sad. And that's where that's where the power of music comes in, man, if you need to push through some sadness. Yeah, there's no better way and it makes it makes things bearable. I mean, I don't think on the only person on the face of the earth, Tim, who feel sad and goes, I wanna listen to something, not cheery. I wanna listen to something sad that's going to make me cry. Even though I really feel lousy about something. And when you get to the end of it, you're crying sure enough. But somehow your uplifted to which is the magical thing. It's the sadness is making you connect to the sadness of life and going okay, I can bear it, and I've been up lifted while being reminded of my sadness with his beautiful song, and that's just wild and not just the blues man, not just not just, you know, not just to be kings. In your and your Albert king's, but you're Peggy Lee's and your your Theodore Kells and. You name it. You're Jackson Browne's your zombies. Yeah, you know, they, they will carry you through that sadness and when the song fades out or comes to that cold stop. It really it gives you the ability to just take a deep breath and go the sung ended in so my sadness. Now, the next thing we're gonna listen to is, is an example about lyrics and how lyrics can blend both positive and negative together and complain. You find a really well written song lyrically. It can actually be mysterious. There is no one definition and you shouldn't try and find one definition. So the next thing I picked is a little known song that I never even. I never even heard of this song a year ago. It's from nineteen sixty seven, and it's called another time by the group Sagittarius. Yeah. Okay. You have a giant musical brain you've heard of them? Yup. I'd heard of the producer Kurt veture, but I didn't know Sagittarius his work and I stumbled across. This amazing song called another time, and this is the only song on my personal history of music today that I'm going to actually read the lyrics because the lyrics actually or a metaphysical mystery. This song is talking about love. It's talking about death is talking about afterlife. He's tell you missed opportunities, and it's talking about it in different stances, and it's shifting realities. As you go through the song, it is so profound. It's credited to six guys. A lot of lot of progressive rock is like that, but I don't know who actually wrote these lyrics out of these six guys and veterans name by the way is not one of those names as the producer. So I just have to go through these lyrics and then talk live about the production and the gnome is new. It let's go. All right. So it's called another time. You'll see my face when you're not looking and run to me blindly. Ask what's on my mind. Another time you'll find me in a game and ask if you can stay in play alone. But another time has come in all ready gone. Another time, your heart can sing the music that I'm hearing and find a way to answer all the questions in my eyes. Another time you'll lift your head and see a sky that beckons you to try your wings last, but another time has come. Another time has passed another time. The words I'm saying now will lose their meaning because by then will share the love that now I'm only dreaming another time. You'll be the moth whose found the light. I know she's also found her death, but you'll understand another time. Time. So I guess I'll save my breath another time, man. So whoever amongst those six guys wrote, these words is saying, this is a love song, but it's also a song about loss. It could be a song about none of this ever happened, and these are the possibilities. It could be a song about. Dying without ever having found the right love. It could be a song about having the the right love and he or she dies on you. It could be a song about having more than one love and shifting from reality to reality in each deep relationship. This is, I'm sorry. I'm just going to say at, you can say, Brad year out of your mind or your hyperbolic. This is one of the most magnificent complex and profound lyrics for love song ever written. And I didn't even know about it year ago and now I'm now talk little bit about the production of it. Yeah, Kurt Becher by the way as as I'm sure you know was around the same time that Brian Wilson was going to do pet. Sounds right. And it is rumored that they both knew each other and had some affect on each other. In addition to that, we also know that there was this competitiveness between the. Beatles and the beach boys and and pet sounds really had an influence on the way music was produced and everybody considered Brian Wilson. Genius. What what's ironic to me is I've listened to a lot of what Kurt Becher has done and nothing achieves the sun, this sonic and brilliant lyrical quality of another time in his entire OBE. Yeah. But in this song, he's got harps. He's got vocal processing on avoi- says that are very celestial and then sort of fade away. So to my mind, you go back to the lyrics and you say to yourself, there is a profound undercurrent about the limits of life. You're going to die one day. What is the nature of the love that you've had in this life? And it's reinforced with the production of Sagittarius and another time, let's give it a listen. There's there's no more I can add to that. That read. 'cause I agree with you. I have some stuff to say, but I think frankly, I think you should hear it before I have anything yet. That makes sense to me to hear Sagittarius on the coral courts, radio hour. Things. She's. Secretaries another time on the on the coral courts, radio hour of absolutely beautiful, beautiful cut from from band that sadly, only a select few. No, they have a reputation among music fans for having a little bit of that pomposity and overproduction that that you know later moody blues have or you know, or yes, or you know, a lot of the progressive but men, you know, the hair on my arms stands for the fourth time today from saying such a beautiful beautiful. You can see that. Why would get airplay on your on your top forty station in nineteen sixty seven, but you're underground stations. You can't. Right? You can't see your. He fireworks in Kansas City. Man are Kadian a right where where it's just, you know, a dude and his record collection doing free form radio probably gave us a lot of spins. And if this is your first introduction, secretaries, I encourage you to dig into their body of work, which isn't that deep, but there's a lot of lot of good stuff out there. Brad, thank you for sharing sharing this one. We talked a little bit about its production. We talked a little bit about the lyrics. Is the song locked into an experience for for you? Does it? Does it bring you to a moment or as the irony of it, Tim is I literally stumbled upon the song about a year ago and I went, how did I miss this on? Because there's the musical experience liberally. The instruments? Yeah, then there is the Lear. Eric experience, then there's the whole production itself. And for me, it's so profound that I went. If I had produced. The millennium and Sagittarius like Becher did. Right. And I never did anything else that I could be proud of. I would say that at least I did this song which admittedly doesn't have the fame that I think it deserves, but to me it is so fantastic. It is so moving and like a great piece of art, like like an experimental film or play that might seem surreal. You don't want to say, I know exactly what they're saying in terms that is moral. When I was make theme of the work, it could mean many things in. Like I said, when I was reading you the lyrics at the end, you know the vocal is, but you'll understand another time. So I guess I'll save my breath, which is wonderful because it's you'll understand because you're gonna live your own experience or you're going to live your own relationship or it's the way people use that phrase. Oh yeah. Listen, you'll get it another time a way of saying you will never get it. And I guess I'll say my breath is kind of funny and ironic. So here's a song that's talking about multiple realities, death and then ends with a a last line of dialogue. That's kind of. Tach ten of shrug. Yeah. And ironic, it's like I know that I've just told you something very profound, but instead of acting like a jerk, gonna go on, I'm going to save my breath. There's something phenomenal about the song that that you just don't see in songwriting of love songs. Yeah, and that's, that's why I liked again, if there's a through line in any of these eleven songs, it's that they're combining influences and they're defying expectations. It really. That's true. As we were as you were playing as we were playing this cut, you know. Being of its time. It is it sounds a lot like the underground music of nineteen sixty seven like we, you and I were talking off Mike about hot ASEAN oracle, my favorites album, right? Or I mean, you can hear pet sounds which was not a popular album at the time. Yeah, it's funny and now it's considered a classic. So sometimes what what happens is it takes a while that's being of another time. Yeah, it literally takes time for people to recognize the qualities of songs that were not recognized in their own time. So there's another level to Kurt Becher. Yeah. Rod Arjun told me the same thing about odyssey and oracle really is it actually sells better now than it did in sixty seven and you brought up the moody blues, which by the way is the first group I ever saw live and you're absolutely right. There's something Florida and over produced about a lot of their music, and some of it is actually just. Squibb as a future past is, is an amazing album. And yet I would counter and say, as as mazing days of future passes their parts of it that are comically overproduced. Oh yeah. You remember from our previous discussion that I had a couple of comedy groups in the San Francisco Bay area? Well, we did a lot of radio comedy, and we did a takeoff on these nature movies. There was a movie, the wonder of it all was about nature and bears and streams, and and we did something called the human lung and we use, we use some of the moody blues days of future past that data better took that they're, you know, and we use that as a musical bed and when the human lung nature as men examined it nature as it has never been seen before and. And you have these breathing, sounds in the lung and you've got the moody blues underneath right with this really floored overly produced string section. So that's the irony I can love the moody blues and some of the songs on an album and other ones go, oh my God. That's so syrupy I've, I'm going to go into diabetic shock, really? Yeah. Did you watch the movies, get inducted into the rock and Roll Hall of fame this year now? I'm sorry to say I didn't. There are. It's running in rotation right now on HBO. Oh, great. And there are three Moody's left? Yeah, that were part of it and men having listened to their having seen them live in their prime. Right. It I, I gotta tell you a little disappointing to see Justin look like a lounge Singer. Well, you know, then again back to another time. The irony is you take singer whose in great voice at the apex of his or her career, and then you listened to them years later, the voices not there, they, you cannot. Expect rubber plant to sound like he's in the seventies for his whole life. And yet he had one of the greatest voices in rock and roll history. Yeah. And then another time, what would we just listened to if the lyrics aren't as wonderfully constructed and profound as they are. You can listen to that string section say, oh man, this is a gooey song, but when you, you're moved by the metaphysical quality lyrics, and then you have those strings and harps and the fading of the voices you go own my God. This is a really moving experience and you kind of forgive that quality of production because it blends so well, with the words, I'll tell you if you're listening to this show in your car. First of all, thank you, but second of all backup a little bit and play. This cut play another time again in headphones in a dark room because that's when you can really dig it when you can. Really drink it in the the production is lush, the vocals are mixed perfectly. I mean, absolutely perfectly in there. And they again rela- the nebulous theme, you know of of what it is and like you said, like like a like a like guard film or a great painting. It is open to interpretation and it can be. It can really resonate with what it is inside you. Yeah, it's dream like, yeah, you know, you tell one person about a dream. See, I've done some dream analysis. I've learned to do it for my friends and they like it and they get new ideas about the means of their dreams. And the first thing I always ask them is okay. So you're playing a badminton with jellyfish. That's not the point it's not about okay, who I know why deny ever play sports more, who do I know looks like jellyfish. That's not what it's about. What's the feeling that you have? Are you laughing because it's absurd. Are you frightened? Are you in despair? Do you feel you're wasting your time? That's the way you interpret the dream, the feeling and then you look at the symbolism, and and that's why again, and we can go on. That's why I think the lyrics to another time or so. Great. Because you can have more than one interpretation of it and enjoy each one. Yeah. Now the next one. Yes is actually okay. Here's your weird hybrid Christian metal. Okay. Christian medal is not the name of lead singer. It's it's gonna. So this is a group called union, and this is from nineteen ninety eight. Of course it is because it's Christian metal, and I always had a a mixture of feelings about Christian metal win. When I became a recognize genre, I didn't like overt references to the word, savior God or Lord in a song. Okay. I don't want proselytizing in a song, but I notice that the production of Christian metal was incredibly clean. Really? Yes, that that it was sometimes their their use of of little bursts of electric guitar were very polished. They some people like rough and dirty sound and I'm with you there. Sometimes you wanna hear gut bucket blues music. But what I noticed in Christian metal was, wow, that's a really polished in the way in production. They blended the voices with guitar. The other instruments, it's really good. It's just too bad. I would say to myself that it's about, I want him to lead me and I want, you know, my savior take me away. Okay, so here's why picked union couple reasons. One is I love the sound of the lead singers voice to is. It's super crunchy guitar. Okay. You're familiar with the term crunchy -solutely. Oh, anyone who listens to this show with crunchy, you know, and there's there's a term called shredding. Okay, plantar it's a good word. Okay. I mean, I I'm primarily a writer. I don't play music, but I write about music, but when there's a word that describes very well equality to music, I go, ooh, let's always use that word. Let's find out with. That's fine other vocabulary. But shredding is great as a word for metal news because it it's visceral. And it's also it's also suggesting shards little pieces that are flying. Off citing and dangerous. So in this song by union, there's some production where they have just little moments of shards of metallic music coming from the guitar. That's really quite wonderful. Now, what is the song about? If you listen very carefully, you're not hearing savior or God, or Jesus or Lord. There's a phrase about chasing the dragon, so you know, okay, he's talking about heroin, right? But he's not on the knows this is not Neil young and the needle and the damage done. This is a very subtle approach to physically going through sensations of possibly with withdrawal from the use of heroin. And then instead of making it a song about Jesus will help you through your drug addiction or even staying on the theme of drug addiction union does something amazing. They have a section is about three minutes in. With little sound collage and you'll hear the sound of gunfire and a police car. Siren wailing and a police radio call and then a another shard another screech of metal, and then go back to the music. So you'll wait a second. We're talking about old man wise, which is the name, the song that's representing reaching a spiritual power to overcome. What I think is your song about heroin addiction when it's not it's not just about here when addiction, it's about anyone who's desperate in his losing their way, and you go from talking about heroin to talking about police and crime and gunfire. And then you go back to this theme of, does any, you know the answers are there. This is the lyrics him the answers. There does anybody care to talk to the old man wise. So instead of saying God, they're saying, you know, if you're in a dark place, you. Can reach out and ask questions, seek help from old man wise, whatever you wanna call that they're really smart. They're not proselytizing the not shoving the idea of Jesus or God down your throat. Whether talking about people are desperate. And I love the sound collage thing that comes up at minute. Three just gives me chills. So let's plan for the first time ever. Here's Christian medal on the courts, radio. Flagging. You know in my in my younger radio days, I would have I have called on record probably calling Christian rock the duals of rock and roll right where you know if you're gonna have a beer have a beer, right? Yeah, but you wanna save calories doing to save every now and then you, you know, you don't want the alcohol, and sometimes you just at a party and you gotta drive home. But I, I, I'm struck by a few things in this cut. The drummer is amazing. He is a world class drummer in the Secondly, this cut sounds like any other hairband metal band of the time with chops where they're not relying on on makeup pyrotechnics and type pants to make up for the fact that they're marginal musicians are or half ass on writers. This is a well produced cut. The drums are Mike beautifully and just resonate perfectly. You're right. The Qatar playing is absolutely shredding and you know if these guys aren't still together, I hope that they are session guys and making a fortune because it's it's tremendous musicianship. Of course what happens is you know, like with another time you go, I'm profoundly moved. I wanna listen everything that this producer or this group has done and you go, wow, I didn't have that feeling from the rest of their same thing happened with union. I heard the song I went. This is one of the greatest metal songs I've ever heard, and it's Christian metal. How is that possible? And then with all due respect to the boys in the band, I listened to the rest of their music and nothing reached me like this particular song did. But again, I forgive it because I will always love old man wise. Some groups will have a long, long, creative life. Doing a lot of great stuff. And personally, it's all personal taste. Anyway. Some bands you'll go. There was that amazing song, but you know the rest of it, but still, yeah, what I love in addition, everything I mentioned is this idea that we can use sound collage in the middle of song. I was listening to Kate Bush while I was driving over here to do our podcast. She's a perfect exemplar of someone who creates this whole world and she'll have people chant things. She'll use sound effects. Show us where called found vocals, which one of my favorite albums of all time, Brian Eno and David Byrne my life in the Bush of ghosts. Yeah, though, found vocal at a radio evangelist, or you know, some woman who singing on a law shortwave radio from the Middle East, you know, and find a way to accompany. Music with these quote, unquote found Volk and do much better than revolution. Number nine. Well, we disagree on that. I love that. I love it too, but I think the point that you're trying to make those found vocals can be put into something melodic UIL instead of just a random sound collage of gum, chewing teddy, boy, just going here, here's nine minutes to fill the hell them. That's true. It's it has to be judged a whole different way. It's it's not music revolution. Number nine, as much as it is experimental sound collage. But here we are back with union and this and even if it's not an actual police radio call, they're so smart. The medically in the writing, the song. The last thing you heard at the at the end of the song as kids got out of control here, kids got out of control here. Kids got out of control here, so, okay, it's tapping back into violence and gunshot, but what did the song start with him? It started talking about heroin addiction. It's about being young, angry, lost having trouble dealing. With life, and maybe there's real good reasons for that and taking well as as a Christian metal writer would say the wrong path, but they're smart. They don't go Pat savior, God, Jesus, they're talking. They're fantastic musicians, and they're saying these people are in trouble. We're in trouble if the young people in our society are in trouble and what is the old man wise? Well, we're not going to tell you, but you know, you'll have your own way approaching it, whether you believe in a God or not, you'll understand the concept of looking to seek help in a way that you don't even know the nature of the help, but it's beyond you and it's beyond the human beings. I am looking for help. I'm scared and frightened right now is that religion is at spirit is something you'd even don't even want to classify. That's why this in its own way is kinda profound song for me. How did it show up on your radar? Because I would have never found record ever. In my life on your, right? Yeah, it's a great question, and you're gonna love the answer because it's completely fluke. Okay. So one of my dearest friends is a guy named Rick reason, San Francisco, Rick. He's a software engineer, but he's he's guitarist. He was an entrepreneur ran a club in San Francisco for a while. He and I have a lot of similar music tastes, but he also likes completely insane, improv core as they call it very improvised. Music to me is a Lou too noisy and discordant it's hidden on his ical. Okay. Yeah, but I love Rick. So one day I'm out his place in San Francisco, and this is obviously ninety eight is union, so who a mad his house. It's like nineteen ninety eight and he has satellite television. You know, you have all these channels of different music, right? Serious and XM before became Sirius XM. So he likes metal and I don't like most medal and he goes, I every once in a while you get a crunchy guitar that you love. So he found a way to take h s cassette and hook it up to the television. So that on six hour mode VHS you record six hours of music, six hours of metal. At a time early common thing to do with time for those who then you strip it off and you put it onto a cassette. Yeah, and go, okay. Here you go. Here's a bunch of cassettes of this or, you know, listen to, you know, whenever you want to Brad and tell me what you like. So listening way through this metal music going, oh, this repetitious. Oh, this is stupid. This is clear shade, and then boom. It's union and old man wise. Yeah. So I took my favorite forty five minutes of metal from the six hours that Ricky caped and this is one of my favorite songs from that. And you made it through the six hours year betterman than I am bread? I don't. I don't know that I would've made it. There was some fast forwarding in there. Okay. I mean, there are I've, I've literally made jokes on stage about striper you know, and sure. But you know, I was that kid who I heard black Sabbath simultaneously. This is embarrassing. Oh, wait a minute. That's a crunchy guitar. Yeah. Okay. You know? Yeah, anybody names if you're not Frank Zappa and you name a song rat salad, something pretty stupid. Okay. Only Franken. A couple of people get away, right? But you know, they're all associated with Frank, but you know, grand funk railroad even saying the name, grand funk, railroad embarrasses me. But when I first heard their music when this is kind of Barras in infantile, even though I'm a teenager, making that judgment, wait a minute. Yes, a great lick remark Farner. So it's backed the moody blues. Oh, syrupy cloying maudlin. Oh my God. Wait a minute. That's beautiful. There's nothing wrong with being judgmental within a John or even enormous. Good point. You know, I'm having so much fun with this and obviously you are to bet your bottom dollar. And I think probably the best thing to do since we're an hour and a half in for the sake of our listeners. Thank you very much for for checking us out today is working to work in. Let's break this into two parts. Let's do. Let's do a second part. Yes and easily digestible, easy swallow adult friendly version. They. That's that's going on the back of your next book, retro easy to swallow, easy to spit up to. Goes down. Easy comes up sleazy as friend of mine, they I'm going to publish both of these episodes at the same time. So you don't have to wait until I get around to it. Both those are here. So coming up next on your podcast feed. The crow courts, radio, our musical section author, Brad Schreiber. We'll be back in just a little while. Thanks for checking us out.

Jimi Hendrix Peggy Lee Brad Schreiber Tim Jimmy BBC New York Mike Beatles Kurt Becher Randy Newman Frank Sinatra Lauren Bacall Jerry Lieber writer Iran California Manhattan Peter
'Valentine's Views' Podcast: Talking 49ers-Giants with Oscar Aparicio of 'BetterRivals'

Big Blue View

33:29 min | 2 years ago

'Valentine's Views' Podcast: Talking 49ers-Giants with Oscar Aparicio of 'BetterRivals'

"Welcome giants fans. This is the Valentine's views podcast here on big blue view radio. And I'm your host advantage producer and editor of big blue view dot com. On today's show. We're going to talk a little bit about Kyle Letta, the rookie quarterback in some of the things that he had to say earlier this week regarding his arrest a week ago in a traffic incident in we Hawkin, we will also spend a little bit of time talking about new offensive lineman Jamayan Brown, both of whom had a chance to speak with the with Kyle. And with John this week in giants locker room. So we'll talk a little bit about impressions, you know, from both of those conversations we will also speak with Oscar app. Recedo of the better rivals podcast. Cast which is the podcast for SP nations. Niners nation covering the San Francisco forty Niners. Obviously the giants and forty Niners are preparing for a Monday night football contest. So we will talk to Oscar about the forty Niners. Try to get to know them a little bit better as the two teams head toward a second half of the season that that really is is going to be a battle for the first overall pick in the two thousand and nineteen NFL draft. I giant fans. Let's talk a little bit about about Kyle Letta low Letta year old young men had to face the media yesterday, which was as part of his his apology tour, basically for the incident that happened when he was arrested in a traffic traffic incident in we hawk and a little bit more than a week ago actually found law led it to be very very sincere in his apology. He talked about his family. He talked about disappointing. The giants organization he talked about how you didn't feel like that was an an accurate representation of of himself and his character. You know, I have spoken with lawless several times, you know, going back to before he even became a giant during the two thousand eighteen draft process personally was very surprised by what happened. In the traffic. Stop. I found law. Let it to be to be very truthful to be as candidacy could be didn't wanna speak about the particulars of the incident. But he and the giants are trying to move past this coach, Pat Shurmur said that Lola will be disciplined internally there won't be a suspension. So he and the giants are going to try to move forward going to try to to reestablish some trust. And see where this goes, perhaps, you know, everyone would like to see Lola to get on the field Ventura Alie, just, you know, the giants need to get past this and move forward before we before we go any farther. Let me play a little bit of of Lola's interview with the media on Tuesday. I. Okay. That was low Lola apologizing for for what happened during the traffic stop as I said, I found him to be very sincere. You know, the question now is what happens with the giants at quarterback. Obviously, we know that coach Pat Shurmur indicated that he li- manning will start Monday night against San Francisco. I don't think there's really any other choice. He really did not make any promises, you know, beyond Monday as far as whether he li- would start for the rest of the season. How many more games he would start? You know when Lola might play if you know current backup, Alex Tanny might play at some point. I think that it's really impossible to say right now, you know, win Lola might get on the field. I do think that the giants. Will get Kyle let in some game action at some point this season. I would expect that to be more than mop up duty at some point. There's a lot of fear in the giants fan base that the giants will go down the same road that they went down a year ago. A with the Davis Webb situation where Ben mcadoo, Jerry Reese, Steve Spagnolo, did not get Davis Webb. You know, then a rookie third round pick in on the field for any game action. You know, leaving themselves without any game film. Anything to really judge law letter by you know, win the when new regime of Dave Gettleman, Pat Shurmur came in and what I've said previously is looked this is a different regime, these different GM. It's a different head coach. I firmly believe that this regime will not make the same mistake. I can't predict I have no idea when law let might get on the field. Pat Shurmur indicated that there is a long learning curve for Lola because he played it in CS school a year ago. He's a fourth round pick the learning curves a little bit longer than it might be, you know, for a first round pick like Sam darnold or Josh Rosen in these guys who played at big time schools, and we're first round picks. So a little bit of patience. Giants fans idea believe that you will see Kyle to in some game action before the season ends, but you're just going to have to wait a little bit longer. Before we talked to Oscar app recedo? Let's talk a little bit about new giants. Ofensive linemen. John Brown had an opportunity to speak with Jim on Tuesday in the giants locker room found him to be a very upbeat, very pleasant person. Happy to be with the giants. I think the giants are very happy to have Brown who probably looks to slot in at the right guard spot, you know, he was a sixteen game starter for the Los Angeles Rams in two thousand seventeen in that spot Shurmur indicated that the giants could possibly even get Brown into the lineup on Monday night against San Francisco, which would be a really really quick turnaround for an offensive lineman. But I've said this before the giants as I look at it have three open spots on that offensive line heading into two thousand nineteen Nate soldiers going to be your left tackle, whether you know, whether we think that he's underperformed or not, you know, he's he's not I've said this many times. He's making sixty two million dollars. That contract was an overpay. He is an adequate NFL left tackle. And he's going to be there. Next season will Hernandez is going to be your left guard. But I look at that giants offense of line look at center look at right guard. I look at right tackle. And I see three positions where the giants need upgrades. If Jim Brown can come in here over the final eight games and show the giants that he can be part of the solution that he can hold down the right guard position. That's absolutely huge. Because it solves one problem for the giants, you know, heading into two thousand nineteen it gives them an extra piece, you know, that they don't have to spend part of their off-season trying to fill. So I'm looking forward to seeing what Brown can do. I'm up to mystic that. He'll be an upgrade. And that he can help the giants going forward. Alright giants fans. Let's let's switch gears here. Let's bring in our guest for today that would be Oscar app. Recedo host of the better rivals podcast will spend some time talking with Oscar regarding Monday night's game against the forty Niners. Okay. Giants fans I'm joined now by Oscar appar- EC o of the better rivals podcast for SP nations. Niners nation Oscar thank you very much for taking a few minutes to join me today. Absolutely. It's my pleasure. Hey, so you know, we have a Monday night football game coming up giants forty Niners. I mean, let's be honest. Could you could you think of a match up that the rest of the country could care less about for a Monday night game? I don't know, man. I think Derek Carr CJ Beathard rivals that primetime matchup and at this point Nick Mullins, at least has a bit of a story behind him. So it's like it's going to be a barn burner. Either way, my friend. We're we're going to the winner. The winner gets closer to the loser. Well, I'm not sure that they went anything other than maybe some temporary bragging rights, but also they'll be watching the game because you know, that the call it fanaticism for reason. So i'll. Still be dialed in feeling you will too. Hey, willy ley manning wins at least one more start. If the giants win. So so there's that whether giants fans care about that or feel good about that. Or not, you know, I think he wins. At least one more start is that the horse. He's gonna write out on just beating Nick Mullins third string quarterback undrafted free agent. That's his capstone probably could be who knows? So let me ask you this. Let me actually start with this. And this is kind of a kind of a thing that I've been thinking about when I think about the forty Niners. And I think about the giants there's so much negativity around the giants right now, everything is negative. Everything is Eli manning asked to go. He has to be replaced, but they don't really have a replacement. You know, and and everything is everything is bad because the giants are four and four and twenty I think in their last twenty four games, and I look at the forty Niners and. The forty Niners are two and seven to forty Niners are bad. But from the outside it doesn't seem like there's all that negativity around the forty Niners. It seems like a more positive just seems like a better atmosphere, and my misreading that or am I right about that? Now, you're absolutely right. I think a big part of that has to do with two things one expectation and to a quarterback, I think the expectation and Kyle Shanahan and John Lynch have both done. I think a phenomenal job of setting the expectations fairly low, and they've been transparent about the fact that this is going to be a multi year rebuild for the forty Niners. And what that does is that dampens expectations by not going and making splash booze. Like getting a a high priced quarterback in their first year of rebuild. They went with with Brian Hoyer that begins to set the standard. Okay. You need a bridge quarterback. This is clearly a bridge year. And then when Garoppolo fell in their lap all of. Sudden had that huge turn around. And now they've been robbed of having that quarterback for the year two of that rebuild. So I think both the ambiguity of knowing you have a quality quarterback or someone who could be quality quarterback combined with expectations being set low combined with the fact that with this kind of ragtag group of offense of players. They've done six. They've done some successful things. I mean, you're talking about an undrafted quarterback. You're talking about CJ Beathard who's not been good at football and undrafted for agent at running back in terms of Matt Breda a fifth round tight end in terms of George Kittle. Who's now playing at an all pro level a group of wide receivers. It's not really scaring anyone and yet they're still able to put up some points. And again, they're not they're not going to blow anyone out unless the raiders. But I think you put all those things together, and that definitely has a more positive outlook than than a lot of other teams in the league. I think that's a really interesting point. Because I think that weather day. Dave Gettleman, the giants GM and Pat Shurmur the new head coach whether they wanted to do it or not. Coming off a three and thirteen season. I think that by by committing to ally. Manning by drafting sa- Kwan Barclay by not using a draft choice on a quarterback until the fourth round. I think that whether they intended to set the expectation of being all in and making a playoff run in the short term or not I think that's what happened. And I think that for me is a big part of why there's there's just so much negativity around the giants right now. I think you're exactly right. I mean, I look at that saquon Barkley pick. And I think hands down it was one of the worst picks that they could have made not saquon Barkley is not a good player. But you're picking at that point a luxury pick you you are picking a player that you can get similar production much later in the draft. I why why drought the saquon Barkley when you can get an album Kamara in the third round or or. Matt Brita undrafted. And I think that you're absolutely right. The the decisions they make set the expectations. And I think that by drafting a running back and not drafting quarterback implicitly what they're saying is we think we can win with ally. Manning, and we think we can with Odell and all we need is another offense of weapon, and it's going to get us over the edge. It is just so difficult to be in that position of looking at at sikwan barklay and looking at how wonderful a player he is. And yet saying that that in the long run he could still wind up being the wrong pick. I mean, the giants can still make it right? They can still make it work in the long run. If they get the quarterback situation correct in the long run. But they've made it they still have that question to answer. So it's he's a wonderful wonderful player. But until they get that quarterback situation squared away. They'll just never be able to use him in use Beckham. And maximize the players on the outside that they have. And then you're exactly right. He saquon Barkley can be one of the best players at his position and still unfortunately, play a relatively invaluable position a position where you can find talent lots of places. I mean, the Niners are out there. Tron out Rehim Oester who was special teams player in his special teams gunner and he's ripping off seven eight yard runs, and he was picked up the scrap heap a couple years ago. I think with with chip Kelly if I'm remembering correctly, so it's just one of those things where you've got to make sure that you put your you put your chips, you put them all in at the right time. And I think it was probably it probably would have been a good time to go all in on a quarterback. And even if you have him sit for a year and then coming in year two that would have been a much better play treating them. Like, Pat Mahomes than thinking you can draft a running back and win you games. Oh, let's let's let's move away from from the Barclay topic for a second here. And let's talk about let's talk about the forty Niners quarterback situation. Let's talk about Nick Mullins, wonderful wonderful story going in against the raiders. I think if I'm not mistaken Molin spent last year on the practice squad. That's right. The gaming it's the raiders was his his NFL debut. I mean are up veasley kind of a fairytale story. But are we looking at a kid who who had his moment in the sun? And now he's going to turn into Nathan Peterman. Or is this a kid who can actually play a little bit and might have a future in the league? I would say that wolf find out a little bit more after he plays the giants because I think you're right. It is a fantastic story. This is someone who was not invited to the combine he'd. Did not get any Predrag visits. There was only one team that actually gave him a Predrag visit and that was the San Francisco forty Niners. And so when he when it came time to the post draft undrafted free agent kind of free for all that were lots of teams that contacted him and he knew right away. He was going to go with the forty Niners because they had shown interest in him. And so he was gonna show interest right back. And he spent all your on the practice squad. He comes in. And he's prepared very well. Now they played in Oakland Raiders team. That is just not playing good football team. Looks completely given up on Jon Gruden. So think you have to contextualize his performance in that in that regard. But he did do things that you would expect from an NFL quarterback. He was able to hit open receivers he was able to read blitzes and throw to the hot receiver. And that's not something that you always get with NFL quarterbacks. You mentioned Nathan Peterman. He's not doing that. And CJ Beathard at times wasn't doing that either. But he was not pressured at all against the raiders he was only under pressure for about three snow. Apps and he was only blitz six times. Now, he performed really well against the blitz. He completed four of six passes for fourteen point two yards and had an NFL quarterback rating in the upper one forties. If I remember correctly. So I think that's important because especially going up against giants defense that is known to pressure. You're pressuring at a rate above NFL average. I think somewhere near thirty four thirty six percent Becher loves to pressure quarterbacks. I think we're going to learn a little bit more about Nick Mullins against the giants. It's interesting that you mentioned pressure because the giants defense might they might get pressure. But they don't get home a lot so down near the bottom of the league in actual sacri. Ten total sacks. Which puts you think. Thirty first in the league and blitz percentages. Thirty two percent sending five or more NFL averages twenty six point nine. Yeah. I'm glad you had those numbers in front of you. I didn't have them. But but it it's that kind of deal where it's it's nice to. Create some pressure. It would be nice. If you if you actually got home a little bit more often. So I'm hoping you have to hope that that some of that pressure turns into actually making plays. If you're if you're looking at it from giants perspective. I mean, let me ask you this. When you when when we talk about that. Are we looking at a San Francisco team that the giants should be able to create some pressure against where they should be able to get home and sorta wreak some havoc in the backfield. That's a good question. I would say, and I think to enter that question. I'd love to know a little bit more about what's going on with the giants. Because by by the looks of it it looks like your defensive lines actually pretty good against the run. Maybe not necessarily against the past and Bechers not bad defensive coordinator. I mean, you had a couple of really good years Zona. And so I don't know that it's a it's a case of like bad defensive coordinator is the issue with the giants that they're just kind of lacking talent or is Becher not able to maximize the pieces that he's got because alleviate Vernons a pretty good piece. But, but I wonder if it's a talent issue or if it's a scheme issue or if it's a bit of both. Well, I think that that if you look at the giants you have to look at it through the lens of looking specifically at Livia Vernon Vernon entering the season. I think everybody knew he was their best pass rusher. He was the guy who. Had to produce. If the giants were going to have a quality pass rush. And he missed the first five games. So that sort of skewed everything the giants had BJ hill, they had delve and Tomlinson before they traded him to Detroit, they had Damon Harrison alone their frontline and all of those guys are really good run defenders, but not dynamic pass rushers. Vernon was the only guy that they have really commands a double team. I think if I I looked at the stats the other day, and I think that he's only played in three games. But he's I believe already tied for the team lead in pressures in quarterback hits. So in less than half of the games, you see his impact. He's the only guy they have who commands a double team. So the picture changes a little bit with him on the field. So it's kind of the overall numbers, I think are skewed by the fact that he's only played in three games. And I think when it comes to the forty Niners allowing pressure. I think that they are probably average or below average in terms of protecting the quarterback. I think you look at the left tackle position. And Joe Staley is a stalwart at left tackle. He's performing really really well this season and Mike mcglinchey is also performing really well. But he does have lapses in pass protection. He's a much better run blocker than he is a pass blocker. But if there is a weakness on the offensive line, unfortunately, it's really at center. This is someone you're probably familiar with his giants fan of western rich Berg, he was a big free agent signing for the forty Niners. And so far this season. He's not performed in the way that you would expect for the kind of marquee signing that that I think we were getting I thought honestly, we were getting a little bit of value with rich bird because when he was not injured he was playing in a very very high level. And so I thought maybe okay, he just he was injured. And that's why he wasn't playing while the. The kind of year ends and change and he was with New York, but he's not performed super-duper. Well, and so I think if there's a weakness and weak spot on the offensive line. It's going to be along long interior, and it's going to be probably attacking western rich Bergen, and that's the weak part of the line. But I don't know that you could say that the the unequivocally the the giants should get pressure. But at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if they did especially with the player as talented as alleviate Vernon because when you look at other players that were that were talented or very very good rushing the passer, you think of what Aaron Donald did along the interior, and he just destroyed nine or so if I'm I would not be surprised at the giants got pressure. I would also not be surprised if the tackles were able to stonewall Vernon. Since you mentioned a west enrich Burgum. And there was a there has been a lot of gnashing of teeth with the giants over their own rebuild of the offensive line, which which really hasn't gone incredibly, well, obviously, rich Berg is one of the pieces that they let go they simply didn't wanna pay the kind of premium the kind of contract at the forty Niners gave to rich Burg. And obviously he's in his first year, and you cities been struggling is there a feeling in San Francisco that rich Burke was a mistake. I don't think it's that he was a mistake. No because he is an upgrade over Daniel Kilgore who was the center that we had prior to west enrich Berg. So at the point at which is an upgrade and he's a better pass blocker. So far this season a little bit better pass blocker than a run blocker. And he is. Credibly mobile, and he's able to get a couple of blocks. I don't know that Kilgore would have been able to get and he's good on the move. He's gonna kind of targeting players in the move as well. I would say overall he's playing on his good games. He's playing a little above average on his worst games. He's playing a little below average. But he hangs out in that average area. When you look at some of the players the giants are out at center, I would say that they're they're probably about the same and performing in about the same area, you know, above or below average depending, and so I think that you probably made the right move to not pay him a ton of money, if you can get someone to perform at that average level on a much cheaper contracts. Who's your starting center right now is that John Greco or someone else at the moment? It would be Stephen pulley, former LA charger center Greco started. I think five games after John Jala peo- was injured and Greco got moved to right guard in pully gut inserted into the lineup so pull he's been in the lineup. The last two games. Yeah. I think once you start once you start getting rid of players like Eric flowers, and you start reshuffling things I think you start having to put a different filter on the team. But I think overall it's probably a wash, and I would say you probably made the right decision to not pay that money if you can get similar production from someone that you're not paying a whole lot of money too. So let me ask you this in the game. We saw the other night against the raiders. I think the final score that game was in my thirty four to three if I'm not mistaken. Yeah. It was it was a it was one of the Niners highest outputs in the Cal Shanahan era actually tied. I think for third or fourth most points they've scored in Shanahan. So the giants are averaging eighteen point eight points per game. Obviously strolling on fire. Yes. Struggling and the the scary part of that is is roughly half of that just about nine points out of that is coming in the fourth quarter. It's sort of coming in garbage time. If the giants are actually going to look like a Representative offensive football team. Are there are things that they can do against the forty Niners? Are there things? They can take advantage of in against that defense. So against the defense that the absolute weakest part of the forty Niners team right now. Are there coverage defenders not name Richard Sherman? When when you look at the games that they lose it is games where the other side of the forty Niners defense is targeted early often. And really the Niners have made some curious dozens rotating Cornerbacks. But it seems like they've settled on a starting duo of Keller Witherspoon who's a second year player who's who showed some promises rookie year. But it's taken a bit of a step back in your two. And then Sherman on the other side who has done what Richard Sherman is expected to do which is kind of hold down his other side of the field. And while Sherman is certainly not playing. Back at his pro level. He is playing pretty good football. He is the best cornerback on the team. And he's performing at such. So I think one of the ups that will be interesting. We'll be Odal Beckham. And how the giants move him around. Because if I were the giants I would not line Odell Beckham up over Richard Sherman. Not because I think which is great and can lock down because I think Beckham can put anyone in the spin cycle. But why go to the most the best coverage defender on the team when you can target the weakest, and I think that's if I were Pat Shurmur an hour. The and I were running that offense. I'd say auto Beckham go up against Keller Witherspoon show me what you got. And I think that that's the one thing that that could really really debilitate the forty Niners pretty early and alternatively, I think you look at their deep safety you've got Jimmy ward who's playing deep safety. He's playing safety only because the starting free safety was injured. And so and he's I mean, it's debatable. Whether or not as good as a star. Her, but I could see Odal Beckham getting both deep shots as well as underneath plays and really shredding the forty Niners because that's one area where they're just not very good. Oscar before I let you go. Give me a quick prediction or the giants going to going to actually go into San Francisco and come out with a win. Or are they going to go into San Francisco and come out, you know, threatening to steal the number one pick in the draft away from the raiders, man. I really think that this game's gonna come down to pressure. And I think it's gonna come down to two turnovers. I think if the forty Niners can generate pressure on ally. Manning and make him uncomfortable in the pocket, then they're going to have a leg up and the Niners pass rushers are not anything to be really worried about. I mean, you've got cash Marsh whose scrap-heap pass rusher. And that's about it. You've got the forest Buckner on the inside and to coda Watson. I think if you're looking to watch someone just came back from injury, and he could be the wild card in getting some pressure on Eli manning. But if the Niners get pressure, I think the Niners end up winning this game. And likewise, it Becher can't manufacture pressure on Mullins. I think the Niners when this game. I think even if he does I think call Shanahan is a good enough. Coach at this point to be able to take advantage of some of what the giants are doing. So I think it's going to be close. I think the spread is somewhere near three points. But I do think the Niners eke out a win by field goal. Maybe not more. But I think the Niners do winning at home. All right, Oscar, hey, I really appreciate your taking some time. It's a better rivals podcast in giants fans. If you're looking for some some extra forty Niners information, please check it out Scurr. Hopefully, we'll do this again sometime. Absolutely. I would love to thanks for having me on. All right. Bye. Bye. Okay. Our thanks to Oscar up for spending a few minutes and dropping some forty Niners knowledge on us giants fans. We thank you. For listening wanted to remind you that Valentine's views is one of two shows here on big blue view radio Dan position. And Chris flow. Or hosting a twice weekly show up to this point. They've done a preview and a review of giants games beginning this week with the addition of the Valentine's view shows their second show each week is going to be an NFL draft Centric show. Please make sure that you give that a listen the the first draft related episode of Dan and Christmas show should drop on Friday. We hope that you will that you will give that a listen. We also hope that you will subscribe to the big blue view podcasts, which you should be able to find on all of your favorite podcasting applications. Make sure you check out big blue view at big blue view on Twitter. Check out our website at biglou view dot com. If you haven't done that already. Follow us on Instagram at big underscore, Blu underscore view. Check out our Facebook page and giants fans we'll talk to you soon. Bye. Bye. New Hello Spencer hall from Espy nation. And I wanna tell you about my new show. It seems smart. It's smart as a show about people doing things that for some reason or another same smart at the time. Those things might include doing a little cocaine and driving a bike up a mountain or I don't know maybe racing a hundred miles per hour across the country in the middle of the night with no one's permission or even stealing a bat from an Pires room in a major league baseball park. Check it out. And if you like it Tele friend, I'm Spencer hall. Don't do anything smart.

giants Niners San Francisco NFL Oscar raiders Pat Shurmur Nick Mullins football Kyle Shanahan Lola Oscar Becher Eli manning Kyle Valentine Jamayan Brown saquon Barkley
The Kist & Solak Show #25: Eagles-Giants Scheme Preview

Bleeding Green Nation

35:04 min | 2 years ago

The Kist & Solak Show #25: Eagles-Giants Scheme Preview

"Michael kissed Benjamin so lag. It's the kissed and Solex show presented by SP nation and leading green nation. You are flying high on the kissed, and so lack show this episode twenty-five brought to you by the fine folks at SP nation and bleeding. Greenish I am your host. Michael kissed follow me on Twitter at Michael kissed NFL as always joined by the best dog on co host in the game ister eight year streak without a bad day. He is Benjamin select, follow him on Twitter at Benjamin, select that's SOL. AK Ben. How're you doing man Everyday's day to be alive, Mike. I do appreciate you you asking of course, but now it's a fantastic day here. The one flairy of Chicago, Illinois gain ready eagles against the giants. Mike, I saw today ESPN has a playoff probability calculator which ever coming every week into the season calculates the leverage, the playoff leverage of certain game. So how how many percentage points of likelihood of team makes the playoffs or at state if they would've lose the eagles of the highest in the NFC week with twenty seven percents. So really what you're looking at it like. Like it's not split right down the middle. You're talking about like a fourteen point increase in playoff percentage likelihood if they winning the giants in the thirteen percent decrease, if they lose it is worth noting the eagles are still top five ish in the NFC in terms of Blake cloud likely, two percent edge. It's the Rams and then saints. I feel like a couple Chicago, maybe whatever the giants are bottom five and will go down to bottom three with loss. So Phillies already, like, you know, if Philly loses, they're still more likely to make the playoffs in the giants. Like even that's gays, but there's a lot of playoff leverage at stake, twenty seven percent in this game big figure. So it's a big one they want. Yeah, it's definitely an important game. We got ourselves a two in three verse one in four showdown in what could as you just laid out potentially be a maker break game for the eagles in the one thing that stood out as I researched this game that the eagles the giants sit like neatly next to each other in turnover margin twenty eighth and twenty. Seventh worst respectively. And it tells you a little why both teams have gotten to this point and neither has protected the ball really well. And conversely, they're not taking it away either the giants of turns it over eight times and five games only take it away. Five times the eagles have turned it over nine times taken away five times. You feel like something has to give there and we'll talk about teams that are playing sloppy. Often penalties are part of that, and it's really not for the giants, but certainly is for the eagles which is concerning just to contextualized that talking point, the eagles are fourth worst in penalties per game and penalty yards per game. And if you wonder why drives are stalling, it's that right there point to that. So the eagles are winning the turnover battle there decimating themselves penalties. They have only sixteen explosive plays this year, which ranks on the bottom half the league. They've given up twenty one explosive plays which ranks in the bottom half they aren't doing themselves any favors. They aren't finding ways to open up this offense enough. And that's why were in this predicament and look just as an aside, people can miss me with the eagles. Nls abandoned the run game nonsense game script dictates a lot of that. You have an incredibly banged up running back group. If you remove fourth quarter due to catch up situations, they're run pass balance on first and ten is fifty six, forty, four. That's only five percent higher than the league average. That's not some cataclysmic shift, and to be honest passing as by modal as it is on first down is still more efficient and a more effective way to move the football. Okay. Ben threw a lot at your there as you can tell. I'm on the on the verge of his game, and we talked about this earlier in the week about how this was the tipping point game that would indicate whether or not it's time to panic you good job of illustrating that at the top. Are you feeling that really starting to feel that pressure as we enter this week? Six game, they did you save by modal? Yeah. So such a casual by on even known them e. I was so impressed breast, wow out who hit me up with that. It was. It was sunset Shazat wish as they hit me with that. And I had to Google it and I was like, oh, passing is by modal. Sunset is invest follows of all time because I never know what he's saying, but I always know he's making somebody else feel bad, unlike avoi- sunset way to get him. I've had to tell him for five times, talked to me like I'm five on no ego, talk to be like, I'm fine. You, you understand this reference, but I you tell them to talk to you like your ten year old and then you talk to your five year old because the ten year old explanation also didn't work still to events. That's the office, but Cillian point? Yes, big one. I, it's quite a big game. Obviously, you know, just brought up the leverage point, the twenty seven percentage points the divisional game makes it a little more serious, but also Mike, you don't want to be scrambling as to in four team in London against the jet or Joe. You know that that is that's an opportunity to win a big one, neutral site against a really good team kinda like evens the odds there little bit Philadelphia defense, I think matches up very nicely against what Jacksonville does on offense of looks like they're not going to be having Leonard fournette healthy, either yelled into playing very well for them, however, in backup snaps. Anyway, really, how much does that matter? The point being if you are desperate in London, Jacksonville's played all the time coming into that big stretch against Jacksonville, you have Carolina, you have Dallas, you pick up. I think the saints pretty quickly there in that stretches well know, huge stretch. You don't wanna be. On your last druthers, they're like, you don't want to call this a tune-up game because eagles of lost two in a row. But with the way they've lost two in the row. Tuna route playing pretty well for stretches playing the other stretches shooting himself in the crucial situations. This is a bit of a tune-up game in the sense of, okay, do what you've been doing? Well, just finished. Just get to the end. Just slammed the door shut now, win the game and kind of get that confidence back like, yeah, we are a good team are the Philadelphia Eagles. We are very talented, have some confidence going at Jacksonville, obviously, long week will help going in against the Jaguars. I think also the tunnel for adding personnel running back could be helpful coming into Jacksonville, you just don't wanna be on a three game losing streak, Ghana, bans that defense that's troubling situation. So it's a big get right. So we can fight we. We can have a good fight against Jacksonville on that Sunday London game totally agree in. If you were to look at this giants game, you know, we talked about this before the show. If you were to look at this game end point to one thing where we could get burned into could hurt us in this. Game, what would it be? Man? Let me say this. I was so pissed off when I saw that Odell Beckham spot last week which is seen Anderson on on ESPN very might. Did you see the clips from this now? Okay. So I watched it live. I you probably saw just the quotes going around, but you know down was asked like how much is like it allies fall, you're not producing well in. Adele was tough to say whose fault it is and everything like like I know I'm not getting the same targets that Tony Brown is Julio Jones. Like how much do you like being in New York? Gano like it's just too cold here. You know what I mean? Like it was like not good. It was very thinly veiled comments about his expectation, signing his new contract versus what actually is being delivered to him in the season you you watch that New Orleans name, you wash the Carolina game? Two games that I focused on heavily. They miss him. Why not miss him? Like he's not on the field missing lease. Right? And the ball doesn't come to him or Eli can't hit him. He's got allies. Got the third, worst accuracy, percentage, deep, accuracy percentage. His adjusted accuracy is twenty nine point, two percent right around Josh Allen. He is seven for twenty four on deep throws. Shuckers the power. I what I'm shocked. Surprising. This is not something I expected to happen. This is bad. Just still happening regardless, where in a situation now where one of two things can happen, right? Either one Odell things get noxious. Things are bad. Odell gonna be pissed, you know, they're going to be four drives into the game. He's not gonna have any targets and he's gonna be throwing a tantrum on the sideline in the coach is gonna be trying to teach his team a lesson. So he's not gonna be responding, and the giants is gonna further crumbled to oblivion or in this via was upset to see it. They sat down this week with Adele and they're like, what do you want? Very expensive man who's very talented. Adele was like twenty five targets. They were like, okay, they're gonna come on eagles and just feed him. And that is the worst thing that happened is so bad because Mike, this offense has one thing going for it and it's they come out twelve percent, which one back to tight ends twenty five percent of the time. It's a healthy amounts pretty high up there in the league, and they come out on those big packages and they run heavy play action, and they draw your players in the box and they put you in single high. Verage got have single high coverage when you've got big heavy boxes and when eagles single highly gonna run cover three and they're gonna leave their corners, isolated with the boundary receivers, and then Odell can run every route in the book right Odell ran the Julio bench round. Darby was getting beat on. Odell, runs the comebacks. Cowan's was killing us on Odell Randa little squirrel route the chair route that you saw defined Odell, Ron's everything. We don't have anybody right now who's playing at a level where they can handle that at all. So you're saying you're concerned about every route that Odell runs. We are hoping that ally can't hit him which he's been so scattershot this season, but I hate to say these two words. I think everyone knows what to word some about to say is one of them double and the next one is move. Yeah, the double the double move secures. Here's here's the thing about the double move. Like what? What's double move? You know when I was like nine double move was you're running. Go row on that, but there was a little wiggle in the middle of it, which meant the guy was going to pause, and then he was going to go, right? Like the what? What when we talk about double moose, really, especially when it comes to things that Jalen mills have to deal with, in my opinion, the best way to categorize it is more so under the framework of call multi break route. So take like the atom Phelan route early in the first quarter against the Vikings were mills got burned. That was a multi breakout feeling, began heavily with an inside stem, which put Jalen mills in a certain position, faked to the inside came back outside. There's multiple. It's not. He's coming straight down the field coming back or cutting for a post or cutting in. There are multiple steps at which the wives Heaver changes direction, which forces jail mills into multiple situations react to mirror, and that's not good. So just generally multi break routes like the wheel bench route is it's not. It's not a good situation for mills at all that being said, we know the New York's going to go back to the bag on slugs another. Form of the double moves, a multi break route where instead of just kinda give him a little headache to the comebacker out enough, you horrid come in for three steps on the slant and then you hit back to the fate. They killed us with that last year. They're going to go back to the well. Why wouldn't you? That was the birth of our problems with double moves right there. That game with the New York Giants in what they're also going to do. And I have a post on this bleeding GRA nation. We talked about it yesterday is they're going to come out in twelve personnel. We're going to condense their set. They're going to give del so much room to run his routes, and we have just been shredded by play action. Now, looking at, I think we know the challenges that we're facing with this passing game, and we're banking on a lot on ally right now with our or they're struggling secondary or banking on ally to be ally who that can be a lot of different things. One thing that I wanted to talk about was their running game. So here's the problem with New York Giants running game. I actually think that as far as the offensive line goes, they haven't been like mind blowing Lee bad and. Pass protection that said, they cannot run block in unison. There is serious dysfunction there and what it leads to you have an elite running back and I'll throw that word around lately at all. But you have an elite running back like saquon Barkley who has a thirty seven percent success rate running the ball. That's low four point three yards per carry, which does not at all reflect the type of player that he is the fact that he has to bust out three or four of these Trump plays in these templates of ten yards or more when there's nothing there and he gets the hand off. It's so frustrating seeing just and just taking off by eagles fan and looking at at it as a person who enjoys good football, watching Barclay face contact or a defender in his face time after time, having to wait eight or nine plays before you can discern anything about his play. And it reminds me and Joe mixon isn't Barkley, but he's a dog. Good football player mixing average three point five yards per carry last year, and I was ready to throw. Things. I watched his tape in the summer. They're getting better line plans, Cincinnati this year. Old look mixing looking like a star which is pricing all if you watched mixing as long as you've got to get through the trash. I have that same feeling when I watch Barkley it's not an efficient running game. You cannot sustain drives that way. And it seems like the only drives whether successful are the ones where Barkley pulls the rabbit out of the hat. Does something crazy like reverse into avai to geyser, staring dead in the is soon as it gets the balls and it's not like he's facing loaded boxes either. There are twenty three other running backs that are facing more eight plus man boxes at a higher frequency than him per nexgen stats. He's only seen them twenty three percent of the time and they still can't utilize him in a way that sustainable. So what do you do while you start scheming him into space, which is one area where I think the really really lacking and forget the trick play from l. Beckham Raith Roman, it went for six. I mean, I like that call, but it's not like a staple or consistent thing. Part of the offense that you can utilize. They need to move Barkley. Around. So Ben, let's play a guessing game here. Like we like to do here on the kiss and Solex show. Oh, man. That's so funny because I was gonna play a guessing game to you on this topic. Once he finished, we got to guessing games going up. We'll see who wins. How many snaps do you think sake one Berkeley has played in the slot this year as Shurmur offense. Six zero. Okay. I was close zero snaps in the slot when he was drafted at number two. Overall, we were soldiers on the idea that he was a weapon because I don't see the the creativity or the imagination there that we were sold on at anti charted, how they used him as a receiver on his thirty. One receptions, here's what I found ninety seven percent of those receptions came from running back alignment, seventy four percent of those were checked downs. Eighty. One percent of those were either curl flat or swing routes. He has one single one reception from an outright alignment and guess what he ran a go route went for twenty one yards. Ben. He has five five manufactured touches in the screen game in five games and he's made it work. Overall. He's got a fifty percent success rate when when when he catches the ball, which is why tackling is going to be so important for the defenders on this eagles defence and they've struggled with it to come up and stop him on those check downs because while Barclays averaging eight point eight yards per catch, he's actually averaging more yards in yards after catch with nine point three. So that's hose you where they target him and that that while, but here's the point bent. Is that what you had in mind for saquon that usage when you avoided his game in the project process? No. The coast. Okay. And here's, here's what's important understand about Barclay people who had wanted to grab spell Barkley and I think you're more so on the gripe side of things I was. I was a numbered with barklay people who were had the gripes. It was okay. He's really good at space. He's really good when you give him a ton of room to work, and he can make three guys missing the. Second level kinda gotta get him to the first level. The way Pat Shurmur runs win a trimmers, got some power backgrounds to north Turner in a little bit like that. That style of the tree. So he's if I'm running the football, it's with a fullback in tight ended and with a player like Barclay, you don't really wanna say that's not what you should do with him because Barclay has unbelievable talent from the so that he could. He pull that off. You know what I mean? Like his ability to be lucid in his power like he could be fine in any scheme. But when you're transitioning him from Penn State offense that saw him running out of a five-man box most of the time, right? Like five offense of linemen. Nobody else running tackled dart tackle rap, like he's got one polar who's gonna be responsible for one dude. And then he goes for that dude doesn't go like, you know what I mean? That's a steep transition to come into the power style scheme. Then you throw in the fact that even though Penn State. Necessarily line him up at wide, very often, put him up the slot very often. They were constantly oriented on halfback seem routes, halfback circle routes, test Texas, angle option routes all the releases from the head, the backfield you usually see. That's what I think there should be the emphasis. And I will say Mike giants. Fourth in the NFL right now in terms of run pass ratio. Okay. They pass the ball, the fourth highest amount of time in the league right underneath a sixty, seven percent. I believe it is sixty seven point five percent. And when you go and you look at how those passing attempts are distributed. They are at a point where their top ten in the league in terms of running back percentage targets with twenty five. And they're also top ten in terms of how much of their passing yardage is created by running back snap percentages at twenty two point five. So they go very heavily to the backs in the passing game. I think it's more traditional a look than you'd like to see for a player as unique as saquon Barkley. So I think there are some. Actions there. And I've always liked Shurmur very carefully because Shurmur was here and he wasn't graving who's here? I've always liked Shurmur in terms of just on field what he does in terms of his designs that something always like about Pat Shurmur. And I think he's good there in terms of designing Barclay open, but he doesn't have those creative conceptions for man. I could just deploy him differently. I could just align him differently. So he's limited in that regard. Pat Shurmur is all a lot of his passes coming on those swing routes. That's great. Get him into get him into space and have a mistake -als and he's fantastic that the port of the game that's missing is the angle routes where you're getting him into space or matched up with a linebacker or a safety, and you're hitting him downfield in stride and let him threaten that third level. Once he gets past that second level just from his route running alone. So that's what's missing for me. Barkley is still affective in the passing game. But as you alluded to, it can be much more and they can use them from different alignments. So there is good and. And bad there. Ben, is there anything else on the offense that you wanted to touch on before we move onto the defense? It's a hate, short weeks, man. 'cause we love to cover like everything like so like in doubt than and nuance. We know the defensive line is is going to get pressure against this offensive line. We know the run game running defense is going to be solid. We just can't give up the big play. It's pretty straightforward. Play actions. Gonna give us fits adele's going to be wide open, gonna miss him. Sometimes it's going to hit him sometimes. Is there anything else that you wanted to touch on before we flip it over to the defense, you will wetlands Shurmur dials up shot plays. He's dialing up to force your free safety and make a choice. The eagles free safety is a fourth round nickel corner. I don't know if you forgot that silent. Say on every guest running Yankee the running split up, you know, they're, they're gonna run levels. They're gonna force. Your free safety to make decisions hasn't hurt the eagles yet. I don't know. I don't want to predict that it will because it just feels too easy, but you use the really got to be. Privy to. So I will say that also folks, Chad Wheeler plays right. Tackle for the New York Giants limitation by Chad Wheeler, really, really bad, and he really he was their highest grade ofensive lime in from PF less. Take the great seriously. He was their highest graded offense. Offense of Lyman last week at a sixty four. You wanna know, I bet three billion dollars why they put the tight end to the right side of the formation. Ninety percent of the time. One hundred percent, correct. Ben. They can all big the great. I well, you know why? Because he was literally never threatened around the edge because they put and that that'll be my final point. Actually, I have two more points. One final point. An Ingram ain't Jack, where's he Ingram's been dealing with with an injury. It's red Ellison. Ellison's been been out yet has been been okay. Yeah. 'cause I was like when I when I went to the tip I was like, we're hill is Evan Ingram, so I was with so I was thinking like in the same way that I don't think Shurmur really knows how to creatively use. Barclay doesn't really know how to creatively use Ingram. 'cause Ingram, plus as time Bhagat use them like a wide receiver effective. Right. So there's that final note would be lessened, and this is just this. This is a personal, take, Kyle Letta backup rookie fourth round pick out of Richmond, quarterback. Part of the reason Davis Webb got kicked out, got cut during camp. How much longer do we deal with ally over on the sing multiple routes, every game they lose the. The the, the Panthers by two, they will won that game. If he hits more throws if he had checked down two out of every three attempts. I wanna see Leta I liked Lila better the fourth round or frigging Scher in the fourth. So just as sub watch very wash for the giants slow locale actually, maybe like we are definitely on the clock for Kyle a letter in a quote on editing room. He played three games, thirteen targets ten receptions week one. It gets Jacksonville yet to catches for eighteen yards. We to seven seven and sixty seven with a touchdown. And then it looks like he got hurt the Houston game. So he may be back for this game. Obviously, BGN radio is going to be recording tonight. They're going to have a more up-to-date injury report, so we're not going to go into that today. What we are going to do is flip it over to the New York Giants defense against the Philadelphia Eagles offense. Let's look at the metrics that matter here the giants eleventh best and third down conversions, allowing thirty four percent. The eagles rank twenty third at thirty eight percent read. Zone. Here's what surprised me. The giants are third in red zone defense only allowing thirty seven percent of those trips to turn into touchdowns. Meanwhile, the eagles have faced a regression from last year in this regard as we know ranking eighteenth and converting fifty, three percent points per game. Giants are nineteenth allow twenty five point six eagles or twenty fifth where they concerning twenty point six. Here's an go into one play that kinda sums up my main worry for this game and regard to their pressure packages on third down that the eagles will have to deal with and I'll give the play for those with game pass. And so Ben, you look it up. His wealth want also meant to write this play up for bleeding, green nation dot com. So we can all get a good look at this puppy. So this is last week against the Panthers on Sunday. Fourth quarter scores twenty seven sixteen Panthers nine eight left in the game on the giants. Forty three yard line. This is a must have stop for the giants here and as a defensive coordinator just like you would see Schwartz in the situation where he's normally. And like cover zero with a fireball stunt. All that fancy stuff that that that he likes to do Jim veterans, James veterans, gonna reach in that bag of tricks and call something that he likes to keep this game alive for the giants. So the giants come out. We've talked about this this look before that double three tech on the inside where the kind of wide right wide outside four man front and they have Alec Ogle tree over the center with Landon Collins threatening the be gap to the right of formation. So the Panthers are in lemon personnel. The giants are in big time, so three safeties on the field with three quarterback pre snap. This looks like man free from the giant. So they're going to have that deep safety, everyone else's plan, man. And then there's a two on one funnel with Landon Collins and algal tree between running back. That's they're not blitzing. So what happens on this play? Is those two, three techs run a twist and what this does to the Panthers with allegory also stepping forward to threaten that center and hold him is guard to guard the Panthers offense. Of line pinches in. Now, what does that do? Landon Collins, shoot that be gap. He's got, he's got a wide area to get through that frees up space for him. So he comes clean to the being big gap and that's who Christian McCaffrey has to come across the formation to block. So think about the eagles running back, pass protection. When we think about this McCaffrey tries to cut Landon and Landon, just like leaps right over him and boom, he's in camps face. Now, Cam has to get rid of it. His feet aren't set where he wants to go his fading off of it. It's an all arm throw. And when that man look converted to zone generous Jenkins then gets to come off his man to get to his spot. So in throws that crosser Jenkins's on the outside of it, right, where Cam throws it, and it's a big interception that gets the giants back in the game. So that's an example of what you can expect from the giants on third down from their blitz package and the stress that it puts on the running back in pass, bro, who, in this case, a lot of cases for the giants is tasked with block. Taking up a guy like Landon Collins, which is no small feat. So that's something that you can expect Becher Ben thoughts on that, or general thoughts on on this defense ticket where you wanna go. But the thing about James Becher is that that you're on. Also, Mike is guilty of this who's the head coach of the Cleveland Browns, like twenty fifteen. Now he's the defensive coordinator there for Green Bay. Okay. They love to say I've got. I've got a a hybrid, you know, three, four, four, three scheme in we're gonna. We're gonna to gap. Sometimes we're gonna one gap other times in this NFL now you don't you say you do because you think you're cool, but you're not. And this is why you're pretty much always one gabbing. Sometimes you have a stand up rusher on the outside, and sometimes his hand is in the dirt, and his name is Corrine Martin or carnivore win depending on down at his at. That's the only thing that really changes about your defense which is an over simplification. But the point is to say that you're gonna. I hear a lot of buzzes about James Bechers three, four, four, three hybrid scheme during the broadcast specially Chris Collins worth is talking. And Chris Collins with is worst is not true. That's all lie. What you're going to see as Dalvand Tomlinson and demont Harrison playing anywhere from three of three tech. Typically, you're having one of them, at least as zero tech on, they're going to be doing primarily to gap ING responsibilities. They will one gap at times, but primarily to gabbing responsibilities against the run. They're not really expected to generate a pass rush. Then you're gonna have Kareem more in Connor bar, win or Laverne of two of those three Kerry win. Sometimes there on the outside either stand up her hand down usually hand down strong side, Santa Paula, weakside. They're gonna have one gap responsibilities in the outside, though there for pressure. That's the base on the front. It is the least creative front, four games of seen in three weeks, which is good news because they've been struggling with those. That's that's one shoe. The other shoe to drop is that. Betcha will send insane amount of blitzes and will send the stupidest blitz you've ever seen actual San that don't make any sense on the chocolate which by the hard to defend because they don't make any sense Evatt one that you brought up a great example. When we talk about running backs and pass protection, they're responsible for like every potential Blitzer you kinda wanna say, which is tricky on, but they're typically reading from inside to outside perspective. And so as a defensive designer, when you understand that, you know how to get that Landon Collins coming into the be gap while McCaffrey on check the gaps for the linebacker I before hopping over the big gap, it makes McCaffrey a little bit late to the blitz gives your guy in extra advantage. Right? And so battery is going to send a ton of guys when he and get them up into the box. So what does this mean for the eagles offense? Well, as everybody knows, I've been a really big advocate of these tighter splits and bringing the tight ends in and running out of nasty personnel. And this is very Sean McVay style of idea where you run everything out of these tight splits, and it throws off the. Coverage rolls on the back end. The other side of that the other edge of the sword is that the more guys you bring into the formation, the more potential Blitzer you introduce because you're bringing corners and Nichols and safeties right to the edge, right, and they offer to tackle radar. And so now instead of there being case, potentially, seven guys could come these guys threatening this outta gotta watch out for them. You've gotta right? Literally everybody, but the free safety potentially butts right now, they're all close enough to is that's ten of them. And that's at a point where you're going to induce panic, you're gonna cost communications issues that's on the eagles offensive line can't afford right now. I do think that the eagles offense has a huge advantage running the football in this game. This is not a good run defense that you have Harrison at Tomlinson who do eat up space. But overall, this is not a good linebacking or BJ goods. Algal tree do not impress me. I do not think Libyan Vernon as Ashrawi against the run as he used to be. I know he's he deal with health issues. I think he's lost some of his strength Kareem in. I do not think strong run. Defend or carry win is kind of good. I would go right after Kareem Martin in a lot of different ways. But yeah, the thing is like very frequently. I'm advocate that ios running outside because they haven't athlete advantage when they do so. And I still believe that's the case, but they're also I think I've up the gut advantage, which is interesting because who knows kind of know obviously there's no, you're probably going, Josh Adams, Wendell, Smallwood, Corey Clement, right? I think Clement and Adams both a better into runners on the are outside runners. And so I would definitely see the eagles attacking up the field up the gut, so don't be surprised. And then of course, inevitable false positive from the balance truth will come, but I think that running they running the ball is a big advantage here just against this personnel in terms of the eagles offense ivine as run blocking out of their minds and this is not a good front. Seven. I think you have a very clear advantage there. And so what you're going to do even if it's a little bit out of character, you're gonna sprinkle in some more really wide expanded sets getting thirteen again, eleven on the field. Getting four wide, getting three wide going empty a little bit. And then using your off the line to simply outclass defensive front four front seven, which I think you can do pretty easily on. And then from that spread attack from those wider sets, you can of course run many of your concepts eagles do that all the time. This won't be a incorporating new ideas or anything. I'm just kind of advocating for a different approach effing offensively than I have been in the past down. I think you can play better off Landon Collins that way to spread it out. They wanna bring him. It's going to be a lot more obvious. If we have them spread out, they wanna bring 'em so that that's a good point too. So Ben covered offense and defense. Of course, we have BGN radio recording tonight as well. Let's get to predictions how we feel about that. We're looking at an over under of forty four and the eagles are three point favorites. So that would put it at twenty three and a half to twenty and a half is what Vegas thinks it's going to be. Are you taking the over or unders? Absolutely taken over one hundred percent because I don't think the eagles wrote a junior. It's gonna be fine. So I think the giants central points there. I think the only games that the giants can be competitive in clearly so far over the course of the season are games that are boat races, only games they've been competitive in our high scores on, so they're coming in thinking they can really stick won two Super Bowl champions division rivals, and they're going to be looking to score a lot of points on also think that the eagles offenses issues are far more circumstantial in weekly situation versus eagles defence, which are more longstanding personnel scheme issues. So I visited them taking a quicker step forward on short week than perhaps the eagles defense could possibly think of. So I will take the over for that reason. I am still taking the eagles to win. You know what has been good bet the past two weeks, but I still simply think that this team playing much better football than their record in their success would indicate. I think they can even play better football on top of that. Hopefully they're getting healthier also getting more desperate and adding. Desperate teams come out with the performances and you know something that you heard from like a Michael Bennett. Saintly players really wanna win for Doug Peterson. I think there's like, you know, this team knows if they go into a long week off with nothing to talk about, but the three game losing streak that ended with giants. That's gonna be a really difficult situation a handle onto the lie desperation. They're gonna take Philadelphia against the spread. I'll go with thirty to twenty four eagles ahead thirty one twenty four in my head. So I'm right there with him taking the over on thinking very similar score. As you got a habit man, they absolutely have to have it. We talked about on the top of this show. This is basically for me if they do not win this game. I've said this before this is smash. The panic button. All is lost. Everyone freaked out. Burn the Holton. Don't burn the whole thing down some circumstantial stuff with the team here. But you know, you know what I'm saying. So Ben, I think that covers us leading into this game. Gonna be a fun. One will probably be recall. Finding after the game, I'm not mistaken. So it'll be a late night for us and we'll have your full recap. We'll see where we're at in our head space at pep point Sega by to the gentle listeners before we before we sent him off to be Jan radio for the next show, effortlessness thanks much as always for listening to the kissed and Solex show here. Bijan radio. I've said this nine times in the best three days recorded a lot. But because we love you as always Ivan Benjamin solely on Twitter at Benjamin, so lack. That's SOL ikaes. Michael kissed on Twitter at Michael kissed NFL. That's k. I s. t. all the written content, lean green nation dot com. Everything you could possibly want. And then some that you don't want all the audio content. VGA radio, make sure you snatch that lake button. You subscribe you rate and you review on all the podcast apps on which listening to these glorious voices as my set BGN radio preview with the g may be forever rain and John Stolnis, and the post game show which will be from Mike, and I will. Becoming too you guys immediately after the Thursday victory over the giants. Thanks so much for listening. We'll catch you later this week. We all we got. We all we need fly.

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474: Privacy and resilience by design

Spark from CBC Radio

55:05 min | 1 year ago

474: Privacy and resilience by design

"Hey parents if you're looking for some screen free family fun while you're staying home. Check out the story store podcasts from CBC kids and CBC Podcast New Story Store. Shorties are released every week. These short original and hilarious stories fit anywhere in your day from breakfast to bedtime. The story store available on smart speakers. Or wherever. You get your favorite podcasts. This is a CBC podcast. Hi I'm Nora. Young this is spark for the last few weeks on the show. We've been looking at what we can learn from this pandemic about how to do things better. Basically if we have to go through this. Is there some good that can come out of it this time? Can we design for resilience and privacy from shortages of flour on grocery store shelves to a lack of personal protective equipment? We've seen lean global supply chains can be surprisingly brittle today will hear the case for more resilient manufacturing and sure tech companies may not have always had our privacy in mind when designing the APPS and services we use but with so much at stake in resolving the pandemic lockdown is a time for privacy by design if he used Bluetooth on your phone so far. It's probably be in for the regular reasons. Like maybe have wireless ear buds. But what if it could be used to trace the risk of contracting the novel Corona Virus? A team of Canadian researchers have been developing an APP that will use machine learning to do just that including this guy. My Name is Ritchie. And I'm a professor at the Faculty of Law of McGill University. I've been working for time now. On the way in which law and technology interact in. How technology is infact changing the law? The project is the brainchild of a team under the direction of a expert. Yoshua Ben Gio there researchers from Mula. Which is Ben? Joe's Research Institute Louisville Stadium Ohio McGill University the University of Toronto and the Decision Lab. Now the idea of contact tracing isn't new it's long been an important part of infectious disease control but historically the process has been manual. If I want to figure out who had been in touch with at the grocery store or at the train station or in public places it may be very difficult to to interview me to figure out who those people were. However when the digital contact tracing approach was launched in China in Singapore and Taiwan and elsewhere immediately privacy concerns were raised because the capacity of authorities to engage in surveillance. And then keep track of everybody's movement was a spectre hovering over all of those efforts. I would go so far as to say that. It was viewed to be the way in which big brother would come to be accepted by all of us. If we simply gave over our information around where we'd been at all times. Why Richard and this team has been working closely with privacy. Advocates trying to come up with a way to accurately trace your contact with potentially infected people and to warn you that you may have been exposed now other teams are using Bluetooth to do this kind of contact tracing but this Canadian technology comes with machine learning and very robust privacy protection the first principle we can start with that I think is pretty easy to understand is that can we set up a system. That doesn't have any central repository of data. That is to say that. There's no point at which An authority however well intentioned they may be controls a database that has the JU- location of Canadians sitting on it we might want to trust health authorities with information. But that if that information leaks or if that information gets in the hands of the police or if it gets in the hands of of other rogue authorities we may not like the outcome for Canadian society if we if we create a central database so our first choice was can we produce contact tracing without a central database. And the answer is. You can't can do that if the information is resident on your phone instead of being resident in a database so imagine that your phone is sending a token to a mailbox and that token contains information we hope of Bluetooth proximity which can be very accurate. If I've come in contact with you within two meters a token would be sent to a mailbox and now that mailbox would reside on what we call a mix net Which is a mix of servers many servers in fact In each of those servers would shuffle. The location of the mailboxes. Of course the token you send would be encrypted in the first place so it couldn't just be picked up by anybody on the street if they happen to be able to detect The transmission of a token would be encrypted but it would be sitting in a mailbox that is labeled for its time and place but the label gets shuffled by the server passed onto a second server. Which again shuffles this set of mailboxes? And so on you could do this through a whole network of such servers to the point where if a if a central authority got their hands on what was sitting on that server it would be useless to them unless they could have the pass key to all of the the servers that would require you know a level of collusion that we think would be technically impossible so so basically we. We would set up the exchange of information in such a way that if it happened to fall into the hands of of authority whether they were Motivated for good or for bad. They couldn't use the information. They wouldn't be able to unlock. What's there we've sought to design this in such a way that the APP self-destructs as soon as the pandemic is is over That the information You know get scrubbed at there's way of maintaining the data and the and the and the data that moves into this platform is scrubbed on a rolling basis. Because it's useless after you know something like thirty days. There's not really a basis for keeping your contact trace on your phone for longer than that so so we would be scrubbing the data periodically And that's that's an important part of the privacy protection here under a young and you're listening to spark I'm speaking to McGill law professor Richard Janda about a new APP being developed by a team of Canadian researchers it aims to trace potential contact with covert infected people without impinging on individual privacy rights. And so assuming I have this on my phone. What sort of a notification what I get if I hadn't been to into contact with someone who had tested positive well. Our approach is centered on the idea that we don't want people to be shunned or to be distrustful of having this tool in their hands. We want them to feel like it enables their own civic contribution to getting us out of this pandemic together. You could imagine a phone that has a red alert or a green status or yellow status. And that that's what you're walking around with but of course people could say. Hey show me what's on your screen. Show me your status. And that could become itself. An invasion of privacy I use the rather nasty term pokemon. Go for virus hunters. We don't want this to become that kind of a tool where people would be would be trying to test each other's virus rating so instead what would appear on people's phones would be a recommendation personal to them as to the steps they should be taking given the kind of risk to which they've been exposed so you can imagine it might say on your phone well given Where you are today given the recommendations from public health authorities given The the circumstances you've been exposed to over the past number of days. Our recommendation is that you stay at home or our recommendation is that you could With care do the following kinds of things go once a week to the grocery store. Whatever it might be if you had come in contact with somebody who's who's tested positive of course. We want the recommendation of the Public Health. Authorities to be. What guides through the recommendation? That would appear on your phone. What we know is that as of today. I'd given the Access to testing facilities. We do not want public health authorities to be flooded with requests for tests If if people are e symptomatic so the first recommendation you would likely receive if you've been in contact with somebody who has tested positive is pure the symptoms. We would like you to keep track off. We would do to actually enter symptoms As of the receipt of that alert. And of course if any significant symptoms Arise that would prompt recommendation to to go for testing and it would. The APP would help you go into the right testing facility. So that's the way. We imagined the interaction. It would be personalized recommendations to individuals based on their risk status. So in broad terms. How does this approach differ from the other models of digital contact tracing that we're starting to arise like what's being used in the EU for example? Well there are two main ways in which shows the approach were proposing differs The first is that we are for privacy protection reasons favoring what we call a decentralized approach to the collection of of information and data so as I said no central repository of data in the hands of public authorities and One superior to hear approach between users. That would propagate alerts over your phone. That's the first Main difference the second main difference is that we are bringing the expertise of meal which is a world leading artificial intelligence institute based in Montreal. We're bringing that expertise to bear on risk assessment so most of the platforms around the world. In fact all of the ones that I know of our what we call binary platforms by which I mean that they are only sending you a signal an alert if somebody has tested positive that you have come in contact with but people's risk level changes in a range of ways that can be modeled and predicted by artificial intelligence So we will have artificial intelligence algorithms running with the system that allow a Canadians to get a little bit more precise information about when their risk? has changed And that means that we wouldn't be changing the recommendations to you only on the basis of a positive test result coming into the system so to speak but we would be changing the recommendations to you based on what we learn about the the risk profile of this disease whole. Maybe I can illustrate that last point more specifically short imagine the following scenario. You and I came into contact last week. Maybe we sat across from each other at a cafe and unfortunately subsequently high test positive maybe a week later however you nor am I have decided to spend some time with the family member or you might have come in contact with with others. Who in turn might have come in contact with others And so by the time the positive test result comes in sadly the disease might have propagated by one or two degrees further however off with m. l. in the mix if you and I sat across each other for fifteen minutes and we're at two meters proximity the risk assessment for you would already change even before a positive test result had come in such that the recommendation that would appear on Norris phone thereafter would be pleased stay isolated. Please don't be in touch with other family members and so on and so. We hope that could actually help to prevent the second or third degree propagation in between the time of contact in the time of testing so that's a practical example of how m. l. actually improve significantly or quit improved significantly the results for Canadians. I see I should say that. Meal is the the Research Institute that was founded by Yoshua Enjo- courses a globally celebrated machine learning a researcher. But isn't that in terms of machine. Learning I mean. Isn't there an inherent problem of false positive? Just because machine learning works kind of on the basis of probability and risk well there certainly will be an improvement over time in the in the accuracy of Algorithms and we we understand that At the outset there might be what you call some false positives by which we would mean That some people might have higher assessments of risk would ultimately arise if we had more precise information having said that though we think overall airing on the side of caution Make some sense. There's no danger to people in being given a recommendation to be cautious. Pay Pay attention to their to their symptoms. But you're right that over time as we move into I'll call it. The Reduced Risk Setting. That is if we can help. People get out of lockdown and more into a kind of return to some sort of normalcy. The idea that somebody might be told to be cautious could impede say their access to the workplace or their access to other resources. So the good news in that respect is that he Side of this is already in the process of Being trained so to speak so whatever we we release will be already valuable. We believe but if we have significant numbers of Canadians participating in this. That strengthens very quickly. The capacity of the machine learning algorithms to provide useful outcomes And so there's actually a we hope as well and incentive for for many Canadians to participate in this because in the end the civic commitment to it will also strengthen how good the information that is conveyed can be I'm Nora young today. We're talking about designing for Resilience Responsiveness and privacy right now. My guest is Richard Janda. He's associate professor in the law faculty at McGill University with a special interest in technology in the law. We're talking about a project to create a privacy by design APP. The contract your contact with people who may have cove nineteen the other sort of upside of the machine. Learning part of this is that potentially you could be more responsive to changes in the disease disease progress for example like if there's an elevated risk in a part of town you could push for more physical distancing they are for example right in in as exactly flexible mode rather than waiting for the testing and and so forth exactly and that that may have some some interesting and challenging features for us as citizens actually because in the end if the machine learning part of this project is successful it will mean that we can have very targeted and specific recommendations Two people that might vary from block to block in the city and it will be important for for Canadians to believe that. That's legitimate that you know it makes sense that If if what Nora is being told differs from Richard is being told that I can trust this. That it's not. There's not some kind of Discrimination that has set in and that we're not also taking advantage of vulnerabilities It becomes very important therefore to have a governance structure for this that is transparent that people can participate in that they feel they can believe in and so we've invested quite a bit of thought and effort in building a kind of independent and accountable structure for this platform. And and we don't have all the answers. We think that it's very important for us to be subject to the criticism and to External Review External Audit. We've already been in touch with the UNISOM wonderful on remarkable scholars Across the country who've who've been quite critical of of digital contact racing and We WanNa make everything that we do. Open source we want to ensure that if there are criticisms and concerns that they'd be made public as quickly as possible so that we can. We can respond. We can adjust is a big experiment. Frankly it's never been done before. We've never been in a context where we've tried to use technology of this sort on the scale that we're imagining it. We think it's very promising. We think it can be something that Canadians could even be proud of By the time we come through it but we know that it also has challenges risks That it may give rise to to difficulties and we have to be held accountable for that. Yeah I mean this I was wondering about is like what kinds of sort of social or possibly even legal norms would need to be in place especially for this sort of probability based on machine learning model to work as opposed to say mass testing. You know I mean it's one thing if I tell my employer that I need to stay home because I tested positive but another day. I'm not coming to work because this voluntary APP that I'm using says I may be at greater risk like what what's it gonNA take to get. That sort of social buying. This is the question of it is preoccupying us as well. What I can say is I that. This is not technology that we have to learn to cope with or figure out how we we want to use it. We can actually design it in such a way as to be what we want it to be so the privacy by design pieces. I think an important part of the answer to your question but There's a second part Which is very challenging. How do we make the Algorithm accountable? How do we ensure that The decisions that it's propagating make sense. Obviously I don't have legitimacy. My friend Joshua Banjo a with all his brilliance wouldn't claim to have legitimacy on on telling Canadians which recommendations to follow We have to have public health authorities as an integral part of overseeing which recommendations are actually being propagated through the system so we have to satisfy them and then Canadian that the The recommendations are trustworthy and and I don't WANNA I don't hide the difficulty of this going to be a challenge As regards trading off say economic outcomes with health outcomes. Imagine that we succeed in getting sixty percent of Canadians on this platform. Which would be a fantastic outcome. Would actually frankly make it pretty much the equivalent of a vaccine it would. It would end up being if Canadians followed the recommendations that we would we would be able to bring that famous. Ara factor down to one or below according to the epidemiological models that are are being tested out of Oxford University. So by are you probably know. What the R. Factor is the rate of the rate of reproduction of the disease? If we can get it to the point where one person infected doesn't infect more than one other person in fact if we can bring it to less than one other person that means that we can start to move towards towards zero towards no cases but the. How quickly do you want to move once? You've brought the raiders of of reproduction of the disease down towards one. Do you WANNA move more aggressively. Which means you keep. Maybe you keep workplaces closed for a longer period of time or you keep restaurants closed or whatever it might be or do say well we're at a level where the reproduction of the disease is is modest and and so we're prepared to bear socially the cost of further cases As long as we know that we're not going to be contributing to an outbreak of further high level of break. Those are hard questions right. Those are and those are questions that researchers can't come up with answers on their own for this is where we need to engage with those who have political legitimacy. We need to engage with the public on these questions and I have some ambition for for this platform that it will actually be something that that Canadians will want to participate in that they will have opinions about these things and we need to give them voice on questions of this source and just finally Richard. What's the timeline for release of the APP? Well we are in very close discussions now with the federal government and I can say with a with a number of the provincial governments as well We have I can tell you a working version of the APP. Now which is in the hands of officials and I don't want to steal anybody's thunder but I think that we have some imminent announcements and so I hope Canadians. We'll see this fairly shortly Richard. Thanks so much for talking to us about it. You're more than welcome very good to talk to you. Richard Janda is an associate professor in the law faculty at McGill University from this archive twenty thirteen. My Name's an ABC. Jen and I'm a designer and founder of a london-based studio call super flex. We work with companies to help them deal with uncertainty and head design better futures designed fiction futures escaping and the method we do the sensually creating a set of futures in near future. World Alternate Worlds. That are not suggesting a business as usual scenarios. The unawed assertive shiny world where we roll go underwater swimming or go jumping or you know get into adventures post office. In fact our missing complicated in the future would pretty much be messy and complicated. And how do we create products and services? That can be situated in this complex world. I think designed fiction. I hope that it it becomes more than just something that some people are doing on the side of a fringe activity but it can slowly start informing the people make decisions about Or Roadmaps about the future. I'm Nora Young and today we've been talking about how we can improve our post. Pandemic Future with design specifically with respect to privacy concerns and contact tracing next up a look at how. The manufacturing industry can design with resilience in mind. Kenyan entrepreneurs are using three D. printing to stockpile face shields. And is it time to reboot Canadian manufacturing? Hi I'm Dr. Brian Goldman if you haven't heard my new podcast the dose. This is the perfect time to subscribe each week. We answer your most pressing. Health related questions right. Now we know you're grappling with Cova. Nineteen on those we bring in top experts to answer your questions about the corona virus and post some of our own. Get the latest evidence in a way. That's easy to understand. I subscribe to the dose. It's your guide to getting through this difficult time. You can find the dose wherever you get your podcast young. This is sparked today. We'RE EXPLORING NEW APPROACHES TO DESIGN. That can make our post pandemic future. A little bit more flexible. When it comes to manufacturing we've seen how some companies have been able to change their production process to support an entirely new product or service. Think of the many alcohol distillers big and small that quickly started making industry-leading hand sanitizer or there's the coquitlam pillow and dog bed manufacturer now making covert specific medical equipment like surgical masks there. Examples of resilience flexibility being able to adapt the supply chain and retool quickly to reflect changing circumstance. Some companies have been able to do it. Many others haven't can we take what we've learned and apply it to a new way of thinking about manufacturing on a larger scale and one of the lessons for global trade in the disruption of supply chains? One of the many unexpected consequences of living through a pandemic is having to brush up on basic microeconomics like supply and demand? You might not realize it but that's exactly what you're doing well trying to figure out whether to stock up on things like toilet paper and flour at the grocery store. And it's a big part of the global discussions around personal protective equipment shortages the unprecedented demand disruption in international trade due to Cova nineteen has exposed the weak links in global supply chains to try and address these shortages companies. Big and small around the world are stepping up to help manufacturer P. P. E. Even if their usual business has nothing to do with medical equipment in today's Spanish. Everything changes very very quickly. Customer needs. Keep adopting keep developing new materials new fashions all those kinds of things that really drive change. And that's where traditional manufacturing finds it hard to keep up. That's my whole shop. He's the CO founder of Three D. Printing Company called ultra red technologies in Nairobi. Kenya on the really passionate product design. And what we do as a company redesigned optimize products and we really loved three D. Printing. So I'm always pushing to design products for three D. Printing Ultra Red is part of the group of Three D. printing companies in Kenya. That are banding together to Printout Protective Gear using open source plans. As with the rest of the world there wasn't any sort of Preparedness in in terms of that so so far. The requirement is high We don't have that much supply but the good thing is that you know. We don't have people rushing to the hospital on a daily basis so the strain on the system is not that great yet right I see and so how are you using your three D. printing business to to try and address. This what are you actually doing. So we've got an advantage of having quite a big capacity in terms of Three D. PRINTING. And so what we can actually do. What what we are doing a business was bridging. The gap for US Startups to launch products before they go into mass manufacturer and using that skills social skills. We've got during the face. Shield approach like that. We're bridging the gap bit before. Alaska manufacturer comes on board and rural so at this time. We're working with a plastics manufacturer in order to get a mortgage ready for this or that facials can be made a much larger scale. That'll then be able to be dispersed everywhere where they needed to I see. Where did you get? The plans. Were initially looking online to see what other people around the world of doing and thankfully the three D. printing communities quite an open source community and very willing to help out so we went through recycled through quite a few options The one that really interested as was a model by a team called. Three D Out of Sweden. I think the guy who developed Eric Cedar and what I did was I took that model and I tweaked it slightly Just so that we can get make slightly easier to print on our side but also I've got technique of printing Stacked vertically upwards. This is a bit of a technical thing but we use an interface layer. Okay so we print in in two different materials so we use the main facial made out of pity and the interface layer is made out of which we then peel off and the reason to do this was in Kenya. We've got a curfew so we're only allowed out of our houses from five. Am to seven PM. So I I want to keep my printers running twenty four seven so for that reason I wanNA stack it highest of the printing and keep going overnight okay and so since this is audio. Can you describe what the FE shields look like in the these two different parts? The two components one component is something. That's called the headband. So it's very similar to a pair of sports sunglasses But the differences that the don't fold in so it's sort of a fixed set of sunglasses with a spring action. And they you just slide onto your head and they hold quite quite firm and the second component is advisor And for the visor to really quickly. What we've done is we've used A. Pvc binder covers which you can find it most stationers So we've gone reported with the stationary firms around to get Packs of the PVC Bindis the very lightweight. So the whole the whole facial and everything together only weighs about seventeen grams. Wow how many of these facials do you think you'll be able to make once this is really in full production so we recurrently sort of info production and with one machine so we've got quite a big machine from a company called rethree gigabyte and that machines letting us do about one hundred thirty pieces a day and we have bought two more machines which will push up production up to about five hundred a day. So how do you know that what you're making is going to be safe and effective so the good thing is that the the design was submitted on the NIH website in the US and it was approved for clinical use? Okay and what we've done here locally is we've given it to a few of the doctors that we personally you know as a test group and Gordon feedback from them and so far the uptaking all the all the clinician settings as has been really good danger. The fact that it's very light weight so it doesn't obstruct Their their movement and obviously the allows them to wear correct Pp's under it like you gotTa wear an N. Ninety five mask and your and then you can have this issue as an extra layer of protection from splatter Are there any plans to make other types of medical equipment Yes Sir we've been alongside the facials. We've been working with some companies here that supply and maintain the ventilators in the hospitals to wandering the ventilator splits so the splitter is basically allowing one mechanical vent to work with two different patients. So it's very risky procedure. And the reason we decided to work with manufacturers and the technicians was one is gonNA take up the doctors valuable time and secondly one understand the mechanics behind how it's going to happen and the material choice. It passed all of the lab testing and now the doctors are going to hopefully test on on a live case suit. But it's something that we use in a very very very extreme case. I understand there are others in the Kenyan Three D. printing world who were also involved in this project. You tell me a little bit about that collaboration. Yes I mean when when you know covered gonNA announce that In Kenya There were quite a few Groups setup so one of the task force groups was basically set up around three D. Printing. Ppa and what would we do as me and a few other people Was to try and document. You know who's who's got three D. printers. Who's doing what what capacity everyone has to be able to map out What what we can put out altogether and then what we did. Further to that was. We started looking for the correct files. Correct models that we can print An styled sharing those so all the files in the changes I've made and all the tips of lent Printing this BP. We've put onto our website. And we've given it to everyone yet to be able to print so that all of us have a standardized product that we're putting out from the spark archives twenty-six so my name is Sarah Walker Becher and Iran. Consultantcy. That's focused on helping people deliver better user experiences particularly those around complicated content. Many designers want to be good empathy. But even when you're really trying to be empathetic there's also this effort to want to make experiences like smooth and seamless or delightful and baked into the way that design teams work in these companies. When that happens it's really hard for them. To focus on the way stuff can go wrong in the tech world. There is this really common term called edge cases and oftentimes. It's used to write something off to say. Well we can't worry about something like people who had a bad year. That's just an edge case and so one of the things I've talked a lot about. Is reframing that as a stress case when I say stress case that it might be like a crisis or immediately stressful scenario but also that it just puts pressure on your design work so when you put some pressure on it you can see the the fractures are you can see. Is this going to hold up in a variety of circumstances or not? You're listening to spark from your friends at CBC radio. I'm Nora young this time on spark we're talking about how the corona virus pandemic is testing the resilience of global manufacturing and supply chains. Right now my guest is mental shaw. Who Runs a three D. Printing Company in Kenya? His company ultra red technologies recently started producing face shields to address a shortage of P. p. e. in the region. I know that Kenya. In general and Nairobi. In particular Have a thriving tech sector is the first time that you know of where? There's been this kind of collaboration first time in my history. I mean we've been doing this for about five five years now and there's never been a time where we needed to collaborate like this. I mean we've met up at different events but also this is sort of sprung up a few new names that we didn't even know existed in this space. So it's good to see you know that community up And it's quite a vibrant community. I mean there's a lot of chatter every day. There's a lot of new ideas being posted. One of the reasons I wanted to talk to. You is that we're thinking about. How manufacturing can be more responsive and resilient in the future so that we don't need to depend on one supply source in the event of a crisis like this. So what role do you think three D. Printing can play in just more flexible more responsive more Nimble Manufacturing? I think that's that's the whole definition of defending to be honest for us if we're looking at it like as a company looking forward after covert and the plan was always to show people that. Look the traditional ways of manufacturing a very good for for large-scale one product that's not going to change for many many many years so in a place like Kenya a lot on imported goods. The manufacturing sector here is not the strongest. I wouldn't say and so the consumer zero left stuck with either something that guys have been making for a very long time or they have to rely on importation which becomes expensive and it has its own challenges. for US especially for three D. Printing in Kenya that that's a big void can be filled and looking at a three. D. Printing not as a hobbyist tool or as a prototyping tool but more as a manufacturing to The world over. It's IT'S LOOKING. It's heading more and more in that direction you know. Obviously now there's loads of limitations and it's not the most practical in terms of mass deployment. But I think that's going to change. I mean one of the things we've been doing in Canada is for example. Clothing Manufacturers have been asked to start making hospital gowns but of course it takes a little while to kind of retool. So how quickly can you shift gears to produce a new product to move from whatever you're doing before to these facials for example that's the beauty with Three D. printing? There is no more. There is no tooling. It's it's literally so there are some limitations when it comes to Three D. printing in terms of what the actual physical part looks like and how it behaves. Worst case scenario maybe we go through about four or five hundred rations before we get the right product but all that can be completed in a couple of hours so in a couple of hours you can switch from doing one product to another and then immediately start producing that that's really powerful and and to be fair even even the face shield that we've been producing on the fly. We've been making a few design changes and we've been improving the product as it's being produced so each batch that comes out As we go along we get more feedback. We get more testing. Obviously we've got to make them really quickly because You know they needed emergency but as it goes along we learn more about the product and we can improve it on the go. And that's something that I don't think any of the manufacturing technology gives you the the flexibility to As you say there are some limitations in what you can three D. print. I mean you can only use certain types of materials for instance but can you talk a little bit more. Broadly about the rule that three D. Printing can play in Kenya's economy in particular in the needs that it can meet so in Kenya. We've got quite a few innovators who don't have that much access to Correct prototyping tools and the correct tools to actually grow kickoff businesses because a lot of times when young startups here look for someone to start building product for them. The manufacturer zero only interested in something that has mass volumes. So when you're starting a business say you only one hundred pieces of something or two hundred pieces thing. No mass manufacturer is ever GonNa take that up and say okay. Look we'll take this and we'll sort of grow with you so I think three D. printing really feels that that whole and that'll allow a lot of startups to start thriving in this in this environment. Kenya doesn't have the market pool. That some of the other countries around the world have I mean we've gotTA decide population But a lot of a lot of spread the country's quite large And I think it'll help. Also decentralize manufacturing in a sense. So we'll be able to files digitally and have them be printed off grid in all of Kenya. And some some parts of Kenya really inaccessible by by these perpetrating. Networks to get to some of these places and even flying there is a bit of as it so deploying three D. printers and having them manufacturer some parts like I'll give you a story about one of the people we discovered when we collaborated was a company called Kinsey based in Kisumu that's near the Lake region and the western Kenya and they actually printed supply to schools and hospitals in the region Because of this problem of of finding good spares and good pledging around that well it's super interesting work Maho. Thanks so much for telling us about it thanks thanks Mojo. Shah is a CO founder of ultra red technologies a three D. Printing company based in Nairobi. Kenya you can see a picture of the face. Shields May mahomes hose company on our website. Cbc DOT CA slash spark a as we just heard from the whole. There's real value in the manufacturer's ability to be flexible in the sorts of goods. They produce and many businesses around the world have been forced to do just that during the pandemic have seen in nineteen. The A big conference centers are converted into hospitals are companies who are making out goals. They're making hand sanitizers. Mccain tomorrow a University of Cambridge Lecture who studies industrial resilience. We'd drive understand where these types of events. How did events will interact with supply chain vendor abilities? And how these one deputy turn into a risk and what kind of changes. We need delivery Gillians for that as you can imagine. A lot of these vulnerabilities have been revealed during the pandemic. I called up new cash to find out what these disruptions in the global movement of goods mean for international trade and manufacturing in the future. So can you first of all give us a general sense of how global supply chains have been disrupted by the Kovic nineteen pandemic so as you know global supply chain? Aw Globally dispersed. It doesn't mean that making one product happens at went place just to take a symbolic jumble to make a Palestinian more tablet the raw materials and secondary processes such as making registered material. Api and formulation. It always stays the three continents. Wow so even for Kobe nineteen if you need a Palestinian tablet it has this whole obliging has to go through China. India envious of the places to educate nineteen pandemic has presented a unique already disruptive challenge to us. The different part of the world is locked down and people are not able to work hence we can see certain. Medical Devices and medical products are inserted across the world. So that's how it disrupted And so when you're talking about a product being made in many different places I mean. Could we be talking about? I don't know five different countries ten different countries. It could be twenty three organization presenting in ten to fifteen countries. So let's take a a again. I'll go back to pharmaceuticals to make a pharmaceutical product registered than intermediate products. But these actually produced from logistic material but district materials again. The raw materials comes from Earth and animal and food and these are scattered all across the world so instead material can be produced in China then then that becomes the raw material for API active pharmaceutical ingredient manufacturing and from API it can be formulated in different parts of the world so that Saudi supply chain had various unique locations. That creates a challenge. Any Shelly disapply chain is created or evolved from the perspective of cost only cost and market hired. These things have changed and especially Disbanded Amick has presented a unique challenge that I mentioned before and the importance of localize manufacturing. And why it's important. Not only the cost factor. We had to look at but for resilience. We need to think about. The societal cost that it can present in certain situations are some countries faring better than others in dealing with shortages. Do we know so. Countries did a struggle and every country struggling. You might have seen that antiviral drugs which is produced mainly in India. India bandeaus export those particular trucks at the same time China was looking at its own demand fulfillment of their factories were they were making. It would just satisfying the local market. Where the Western world's were completely empty handed because gloves P P Other medical devices are not manufactured in Western world so that creates a challenge it because nature global supply chain. Every country has suffered and this suffered in different extend China's for at the beginning because they didn't know what they needed later on Western countries. This effort they know what they need but days. No supply from the global market. So there's been this discussion of resilience as a potential solution to these shortages. Can you explain this concept of supply chain resilience so supply? Chain resilience is the concept which is a bit became quite popular in recent days especially after Thailand. Flirt and Japanese tsunami jeopardy's Nami came. He defected lots of increasing China especially of Toyota Making supply chain quite disruptive and insurance company didn't know how to create a new product for supply chain disruptions. So let's understand what the lead unions. How did he get into concepts? Are linked to it evens. Vulnerabilities risk risk mitigation and resilience itself. So even that we are looking at right now is a covert nineteen pandemic died even affect supply chain second part of the supply chain and that affect a certain part of supply chain. We call it. When is because don't are the weaknesses in the supply chain and these weaknesses can happen because it is part of the certain location? Location is more exposed to flirt or Arctic or in this case pandemic Article V process that actually transformed that raw material into a program or it could be related to a product itself for cricket. Listrik sue these vulnerability when it interacts. Vit- even even is go with nineteen and pandemic it's supply timbers which is a supply chain is not working supply chain completely disrupted artists dummies broken down. And that's the risk. Be Looking at and then one can put some sort of measures to mitigate this particular risk for example having alternative capacity but if it a permanent fixture of Burma in a changes in our system. It creates zillions against this particular. Even so what do I mean by poverty? It means to be have a contingency plan to convert in interesting. Industrial Asset to produced lifesaving products and so that the product shortages won't happen. Are we actually create more localised? Production and more localised. Production will solve some of the challenges. So far Monday changes in the system. Could deleon sort them. Fake should ease it as mitigation and he had a disruption and product shortages which is created by even vulnerability of Supply. Chain is a risk. So is that a challenge though because your system is more resilient presumably. It's going to be a little more expensive right. So is it a matter of weighing the risk? Is this a one off thing? That's never going to happen again or do we need to build in more resilience permanently even though it may be a little more expensive. I think in the long term. Be known that some of the defense will happen. A climate change extreme weather events are happening. Pandemic was predicted that these independent mix may happen. What we have to do is we need to think about what is the minimum requirement in particular location or country. That one should have. And even if it's costly to produce those things we shoot. Keep that minimum production of these items in the country. And that's how we can commuted jillions even though is costly but it is quite beneficial in long term. Why I say these things I know these days. Water didn't happen but every country had an army and that's the minimum resilience that every society keeps it for protection seamlessly. We need to think in dumb saw Same Same Bay. Our supply chains with basic human needs can be have some minimum production system in our own country. So that SORTA just cannot be materialized A lot of local industry is seeing a resurgence. Now in an attempt to address some of these shortages do you think we'll see a rise in regional manufacturers after the pandemic is over or will most businesses just go back to seeking cheaper labor abroad for thirteen product. I think we need to rethink what we have to give you symbolic example Some of the equipment that we use the knife's Surgical knives up ninety percent produced in one particular place in Pakistan and that I'm talking about UK context. What will happen in that situation? Got Particular location get affected by second things after Greek already as other events So then we see those shortages have thing and some of the surgeries won't have been scattered in some lives again. We need to. We need to think about yes. There will be a new way of thinking about manufacturing these product. Secondly the business won't be as usual and localised. Production will be promoted by the policymaker. Even though a second products will be expensive to produce in in certain Parker. Bill will agree comes as security issues that caused by the society and the nation's One of our other guests this episode talked about the advantage of smaller scale manufacturing for example three D. printing businesses over large commercial operations in that they may be able to switch production to different products. Faster would that be considered part of manufacturing resilience? And and what do you make of it when we talk about? Additive manufacturing today printing. Yes these are the concept which had emerged. Kadiu that people have worked in. This area is guard distributed manufacturing where people can create small production at any place But remember it's not about the production itself even if we go through the printing. We Need Aroma Trail Romney. Come FROM CERTAIN PLACES AROUND THE WORLD. Think ABOUT THOSE. Romito various coming from and whether we will having axe sister does it all materials on more and just finally what role do governments play in? Supply chain resilience. Should they be investing more than they do now? In keeping local manufacturing going at least in terms of these particular areas you're talking about medical supplies food et Cetera et CETERA. Goeman driving gear with industry. Where the value is very hard With exporting becomes quite important but high volume manufacturing is not about the product value is quite high. Non-government will certainly be think in this particular scenario and David. The security is becomes quite important issue. So you've been talking about why women should think about potatoes and tomatoes. Yes if these things are not there there might be food security issues from the business case. Yes. It will be less profitable about the societal benefit I think. Government and policymakers will certainly rethink their strategy off. Not just putting all the money for just high value business cases but also for societal benefits. Uk should thanks so much for your insights on this. Thank you very much Nora. Bucase Kamar is a researcher at the University of Cambridge. You've been listening to spark the show was made by Michelle Breezy. Adam Killick Ozzy Serena and me Nora young and by Richard Janda Mahal Shah and Mukesh Kumar and from the spark archives a twenty thirteen interview with an Jane and a Twenty Sixteen Interview with Sarah Walker. Becher go to see dot ca slash spark to subscribe to the podcast or download the free CBC. Listen up and of course you can find us on facebook and twitter where we are sparks BBC. I'm Nora young hanging there. Talk to you soon for more. Cbc podcasts Goto CBC DOT CA slash podcasts.

Pandemic Kenya D. Printing Nora Young Richard China McGill University Richard Janda US Nairobi researcher professor m. l. Cova Sarah Walker Becher Ben Gio associate professor
Bringing a Human Touch to Tech with Dr. Nana Afoh-Manin, MD and Stacey Kirk

The WoMed

56:44 min | 9 months ago

Bringing a Human Touch to Tech with Dr. Nana Afoh-Manin, MD and Stacey Kirk

"Hello dear ones welcome back to the WO. Med. If you've been watching regular heroes on Amazon, you might recognize our next guest. Her name is Dr Nana a for Amon from West Hollywood and her friend and technical creative partner Stacey. Kirk this is truly a Dream Team guys and I cannot wait for you all to feel their energy. This week's nursery energy moment comes from Marley McMillan and she wrote in I have to say I was listening to the episode with Dr Bilardo on my comment to and from work today, and almost in tears for all the kind words she had to say about nurses. It is so refreshing to hear doctors take on learning from others in the medical field and making mistakes and working together as a team. This is exactly what I needed to hear this week and I appreciate starting a conversation about women supporting other women in the medical field. Thank you for all you do. Molly I. SO appreciate this and it's so relevant with the new influx of residents and students. The way we all work best is together. That's why it's a healthcare team. You can't have one aspect without the other there reminds me I need to get farm on here to any pharmacists that want to come on and chat shoot me a DM you guys catch a ton of errors are such an important part of the healthcare team to. And guys forget. I. Am doing a limited run of. Womack merch. Yeah, Merch you get it. Now, it will be vintage someday, and you'll be one of the lucky few to get the cozy wool. Med crew neck sweatshirts because hoodies aren't allowed in most hospitals and a large whoa Med Arctic. Tumbler, to keep your coffee hot or your water cold had the show notes or the woman instagram to place your orders. Welcome back to the woman today have the pleasure of virtually meeting Dr Nana a I'm amend and Stacey. Kurt the creators of the MAYAKOBA MD APP and Dr Nano was recently on Amazon Series Regular Heroes I'm so excited to speak with you both today. Welcome. Thank you. I feel like there's there's so much to dig into here but I'm curious how did you guys meet? How did the how did the idea for the APP come about? Yes it's funny. They see and I've met on a different becher that I had in as a medical student and now attending you know doing a lot of mentoring and I myself was realizing how heavy the weight of student debt was on. So many young doctors and nurses and healthcare people, and it was re framing where people were choosing new disciplines and so I wanted to do something about it. Man If we could kind of create peace corps in our backyard right where you can get debt relief. We're doing the things you care about Florida organizations cared about wouldn't that be just an awesome thing instead of all the psyches people doing like. Wing for Uber Lifting stuff. Stacey I've met through that bencher initially because she is a cyber guru and one of the few imail founders that I grew affinity towards and she understands some of the issues. she helped me build a technology around like doing that. So that's how we met and then our relationship blossom Maher where microbial de came in was being a frontline worker -mergency department. You know Kobe hit US way before the community but we were seeing you didn't know what to call it right so yeah, we were seeing things and if you know anything about emergency medicine, it's all about protocols and auto brokers were thrown out the window because no one knew what we were dealing with. Avalanche following you know. and. So at that point I, just was feeling like there was so much misinformation out there to the public and no one knew what to do. That route is no, it's do but I felt that there's More and more as I'll see, more more background people dying it acts scary and I knew that my black around patients needed to know that were people like me doctors and nurses who cared carrying them. There was a problem. We may not know how to saw cared why it to get ahead of it, and so I- galvanize a team and started doing testing in the community and we knew that the way mation would being disseminated. This was not getting deep into the community one. You know there's a lot of mistrust about the healthcare system period. Mum To you know the the idea about screening and who to screen and who to tap the test was just such. A political football, and at the same time you know we were seeing lower dying. So it just. It. Was a no brainer grass and so we got out there and we started creating what we call our block party. Testing centers where we would offer to pre-testing but we were connecting with a not office on the ground who knew the community so that we would also be able to offer as a PSA opportunity to talk about. Talk about why it's affecting certain comedians versus others what could do about it, and then build a network wraparound social services to deal with those not those social determinant issues that we hear about the hospital, but we can't say all social working that. Pandemic you know you can't just call. So short deal with that because that has everything to do with how you to split the disposition of those patients and so we built it. All Michael Deeds. It was intended to be resources to people in real time and trust and tethering and. So. Now, it's a, it's a downloadable apps like anyone who has a smartphone can have this access does information. Is actually a web APP so you can go online but yes, essentially, there's three ways to access our resources upon way the best ways the pop-up out sentence you can e-eh up to be a pop center or sign up on even debt right and all we had. Over like fifteen up, of Senna's and you come you online, you come through and takes fifteen twenty minutes, and then we believe with food you live. Sometimes we give roses and coffee and ICED tea and all kinds of stuff. So it's really fun thing. The other way do it is when you sign up the APP in your profile page, you get connected to community health art and that's basically a volunteer health advocate and that person will call you and get a screening file about what your needs are any the schedule you home visit or set you up to go while these. As irony. The third way is for groups to either host their own pop Ivan Arden's of and those five parties allow for our one for one model we all for the love. So if your business or company who wants to test your organization the you're actually also sponsoring a testing site in local community doesn't have access to test and that solicited ways even tested I love this. I'm so I I can't believe you guys got this. Put together in such a short amount of time. What was what was that like from like the technical aspects Stacey like trying to? Build this whole thing in I mean during a pandemic. Yeah I. Think I think one of the great things about Nana is that she's a visionary she sees the problem. And you know I think both of us in this way, like we see a problem and we're not like this should be solved with it or someone should solve this. We both just driven women that say you know if there's a problem we we need to figure out how we can address it, and so I have to give a Lotta credits not because she in in addition to everything that she does. She pushes a drives and I think in a pandemic it's everyone's mind is everywhere but a one of the things that she's great at making the right type of partnerships and connections so that the technology could be. Built Quickly she leveraged her her network for the testing in terms of what we were able to also do on the security side is how do we ensure that all of this is done, but it's also done where privacy is not at a at risk. So. There's only technical aspects. It's not just the APP, but it's also making sure that it's A. High Quality. It's also making sure it's secure, and so she just a driver and so I and I'm and I'm a driver too. So it's kind of like. She put. She all and then you know everyone is just inspired to go and make make things happen and just like all technology continues to evolve so. Aware whereas at Naha in a place where it's it's knitting most. Pressing value to the immediate need and will continue to just you know service more expand more in terms of the features Vatican offer. That's incredible. It's so people always say that you know like black and Brown communities are disproportionately affected in all areas of healthcare but specifically with. Regards to Cova did. and. I feel like a lot of people I mean like that's being said in the news, but it's not something that I think like the lay person who's like not in medicine fully understands in grass and I love what you guys are doing because you've just completely like targeted these days and you're bringing. Your yourself there. To teach in like actually give out the information that you know. That these communities need but you're also someone that like they can see themselves in you know. So it's it's not as scary. It's not as intimidating you. There's there's more trust built there and I. I mean it's you are your driver. You're like that initiative that you have is just it's it's amazing I'm I've got chills like just thinking you guys right now Mike. This is awesome. Stacy and I both know we stand on a shoulders of. Giants, before us you know one of the things back the. Docu series did that I was shocked that it actually was owning that direction but I'm so Kudos to them for doing. It was giving honor to my mom, my mom's critical careless and she was a single mom and she was one of those get it done people. Lay It was no time to like how in that's the problem. Okay. How do you solve it? You know that's the problem. Okay. I. You know. You know. She really encouraged creativity in in. You know maybe wasn't technology, but I was very innovative when I was young because it was slight. Whatever I wanted to do if I had two weeks to figure it out if it was free because she wasn't going to pay for the actual membership. or it was like, okay, you saw his toy or something and you know. This. What it could look like if you added this piece and this piece of figuring out you know and you know you don't realize how valuable is to not only go through adversity but to come out with solutions to your adversity and then how that compounds in your in your everyday life you know and I I know Stacey can probably say the same in her upbringing and the way she tackles technology. It's all. One big hustle right. Our WANNA, speak first tonight on. US It's funny because I think our mothers probably a would enjoy a nice nice chat together 'cause. I love it. My mother's the same way. I mean even today like when everyone else is saying, well, you're pretty accomplished my mom's like what's next? And you know when I think of how fortunate I've been to have such a great education into have such great mentorship and I think of my mother who grew up with the aspiration as a kid to live in the projects. That's how bad her neighborhood was in Brownsville on New York not have a good education not to have a much family support and to be able to you know. Have her kids go to college meet a graduate of Stanford in meanwhile she's helping everyone I used to say random people would be in our house and she like we got to help me we gotta help them out. So between like the driving me and also let me know that can't just drive for you have to drive others is why attracted to working work on his project? I. Mean My. Development Tech Company has specifically enjoy the passion of doing social impacts in even on the cybersecurity side really being able to say I'm a technologist not i. wish you know doctors is. Are. The heroes but how do I be a hero tried to be rise to being a hero in news technology for social good. And that's exactly the point. It takes a village right whether you're working in the hospital or on in the community or using tackling eat everything that we do that a successful. We don't do it ourselves like an entire team allowed it. So you know in this pandemic, it was no different as soon as I figured out, gotTa give them the streets than it was like, okay. How do we give street? And the other pieces like how many streets are we going on? You know all of that and you know I actually could not have done. Your affinity for each other. It's just it's it's punishable like you can tell you guys both have this. This want to like help the other succeed and I think that's so important in a partnership to in any riser. So right in that, I mean, especially in the healthcare system everything works. So symbiotically together and. I think a lot of the Times people forget how? Big Of Lake. A force technology is in medicine. In the you know we use it for charting. We use it for you know like our basic hospital needs, but it's like those are basic needs that we need to function in the hospital and it's it. All comes down to these. EPIC. But just thinking about those technologists, minds that are building these these networks to keep all of your hospital data safe but also create. Ways to to track this data, Lake Stacy's as something that you're working on two on tracking data like that like you guys are obviously taking in data results and stuff with the testing sites but is, are you using that data for anything specific? Would definitely tracking data data is gold in in terms of a athletes the new oil is if it's been, you know kind of how stated yet but using that data properly. So I is making sure we're protecting protecting all of the patients and an art of that is making sure we we train the volunteers and so happy for them to be using our pasta platform to make sure that volunteers are trained in terms of security of that data. On it also hip regulations but then the value of having that data is that it we continue to be more intelligent building on that data to see how we can serve serve the community even better. So it at this point, it's collection and analysis, and eventually it'll be You know artificial intelligence and data models that will allow for us to to without any hands make the right decisions in recommendations for for how we service our community. And to that point as as Stacey. So eloquently said only technologist could. You. I love nerds. Long. A BIG BE UP. For us in medicine like you know when the idea of contact tracing came out, we were like no one wants to be traced. Scare and yet in distress, and so we had a long time ago came up with you know the idea of tethering. You know the reason why we're out here in the community is to tear each other to a network of no one's left behind in. So in the tethering, the old school way of public health where you do identify, you know where the source cases where the people are being affected we use our tethering model as our tracing model find out where new peak incidents were happening. So all the community partners who calling cases who were being people who were tested out you still. Have symptoms and you have new systems who else lives in your home especially for background communities, multigenerational homes, right some taking care of her grandmother. You know all of that stuff matters and all of that stuff is the input it into our of our platform and so that when we are looking at okay now, we gotta think about mapping and whereas hot zones of these like that, we're now able to lean on the intelligence of the the data technology. It's built around it to produce that information and that was very important to us. You know even in the beginning where you had. All of a sudden we knew the numbers were bad but no one knew the numbers and people are saying remember. On wasn't even like available. Exactly. There were only testing critical people hospital in like people symptomatic in. On the hilltop someone far far away you know, and whereas the communities that are being deeply impacted just weren't getting access to testing or worse you would. You know get turned away from testing because maybe the symptoms have timed. We're saying yeah. Yeah back. So at that time was like five and now there's like twenty. Yes you know Oh, by the way baby, this wasn't symptom back. You know. So those are reasons why you know we knew early on, it wasn't just going to be just a system or technology that's going to do. It had to be that human touch because people just needed it even ima social distancing. So even if the voice over touch or like here's an event that everyone's in an at but yet I'm saving my car you know. This Yvette that was valuable. While there's so much follow up to that. That kids missed I mean the. Black and Brown patients they. They don't get followed up with as much you know, and that's part of the problem in in health care Is it like they? They slip through the cracks and what is so? Important about this is that you guys have created that I'm Ba- you've hit like all those. Things like all of those major like points that are usually missed with follow ups and everything like that and and. Just having that connectedness right now because. I think a lot of people are are are losing that like human connectivity in in this social distancing time to just love talking to powerful women this. Oh, you painted a platform. So we're very thankful that and it. It's just the work in front of us. We don't even we just work right Stacey I mean sometimes we hear this. We just wake up keep working I think we just talking early like when I asked you when you going to sleep meanwhile I'm like, what am I gonNa Sleep Curfew taken a day off have. Had either you had a chance to breathe more than like well ours. I, you know the other side of our allies both was our mothers and so Our kids are very much rejuvenating but they also are working I. Guess for me. It's like if my my kids. Okay. You go in. You, know. He'll I think we're fueled by our passion I know I'm healed. I've been asked by my staff many times like how do you go like that? When you find your her business, you just get a fuel of energy That's unlike you know if you're doing some day-to-day mundane task for someone else and you know that it's not your passion The mother I go you know what I hope they're paying attention 'cause I didn't know I was paying attention to my mom But hopefully, they're paying attention in their learning from watching. What I'm doing so that they are were to have some of those same of good traits to take the good stuff you know. Everything. I actually I'm a funny story about that because I think we got to the point had a one point. We had a week where we had like popular Smet Week and I was just on my computer meeting after meeting on top of your ships at work in Taba washer that work. Oh, my husband who is also you know I have to give credit for him I could do this. was at home working from home, and we're both by to separate realism Sun comes in the room after I get off the funded rats attacked him when he goes the office guys I I'm I'm I'm preparing for meeting. Warrior. That's amazing. See He's a lie. Type where you prepared for me like Oh really leaders meet you. Let me let me is is coming to me. All right. Oh, kids are so cool man. This episode is brought to you by magic spoon. y'All I love this serial. I'm actually up in northern Wisconsin right now recording this and I'm thinking about the box of blueberry magic spoon that I left at home. Probably subconsciously because I didn't want my brother to eat at all apparently sibling rivalry is still alive and well, even in our thirties I've really been trying to cut down on the amount of gluten sugar in other carbs I eat because honestly I just feel better when I do but I also really love cereal. And I can put away foibles at least but regular cereal is packed full. To the brim was sugar and stuff. That's really not that great. T for bowls of magic. Spoon has zero sugar eleven, grams of protein and only three net grams of carbs per serving. And it tastes amazing. Like seriously healthy and good and I have a major sweet tooth and I'm telling you this is really good cereal they of four main flavors, broody roasted cocoa, and blueberry along with some special ones that they roll in every once in a while. Is My favorite. It's Kito Friendly Gluten, free grain free soy free low CARB, and GMO. Free. US, A, lot of freeze, and it still tastes too good to be true. Gutter. MAGIC SPOON DOT com slash had to grab a variety pack in try it today, and then you can thank me for bringing breakfast cereal Beck into your life. Be Sure to use my Promo Code. To get free shipping magic spoon is so competent in their product it's backed with a one hundred percent happiness guarantee. If you don't like it for any reason, the refund, your money no questions asked. That's MAGIC SPOON DOT COM. Slash Wo Med and use the code woman for Free Shipping. Thanks Magic Spoon for sponsoring this podcast. that. Was One of the things I loved about your spotlight on a regular heroes too is like you had mentioned that they went deep in with your mother and your connection to her and. I got circle back to that when they showed her a picture I was like that's the nurse like the nurse on the unit. We're like, if something's going wrong like you want her like there with you. Could just see the you could see that about her And in the spotlight that they did like with with your family and everything like how you keep. Going and maintaining that like you like you said, you have to be so passionate about that I mean you get and you run and then you have like a dance party with your kid I'm like. I, love it I. Love Again, Bernie. Yes. The stephanus in and then and again it's just you know we make you know make mistakes all the time. I've always had this like my mentor told me. You know fail fast to spill fast right get through it and fail again. No, you're gonNA Fail Mountain View. But if you're like worried about getting, you know getting a perfection. You, you have these ideas and you don't have people on your corner like Stacey who can say okay well. We gotTA figure out how to do that. You know rather then that's not gonNa Work Those are things that help you know to keep like you see set a. having good people around who know your heart knowing you're trying to go and aren't afraid to take lead with you and that evening goes or me for my family. My husband had to take a lot on when I when I did this and you know when we were first starting, you know we used our own money to begin with. You know there wasn't like a whole bunch of money that came through and still is not bunny thinker but it was you know pop up by pop up saying we're living pop up to Pablo. I Bozeman rebels, things those are the as irs. He just did this jested Baron Sharing Resources was very important in the beginning and. Even now after the show I think the thing has been soap nominal is just understanding just how many other people out there doing everyday things you know Anna well changes like to call you changers if I. Was So, many people. Let's just woke up one day and decided to do something you know, and then you don't always hear it because media's bombarded by and learning about. All, the tech behind it that is needed you know is the think he can just put this together right and then I'm I, talked Stacey I'm like. What is coding. And it just like we take it salt granted and when this first happened you know hippo was done. Everyone's like Oh we're losing. Hope us a weaker work together and we're all I. They name that's danger right now. That could just really go bad just because we use this as a crisis and then something else down the line. So you know Stacey was the first one that was like. Even though this is a crisis, we are going to treat this like any other time we WANNA protect. So her value her foresight and you know her Austin on being exactly what we needed at I'm I'm to think about that and I didn't have to think about. This focus on the testing absolutely valuable. Stacey tell me a little bit about hoster because it's it's dedicated to. Protecting like medical information, right? Yes. Patient Health Information. So posture is just It's kind of the. That came out of the the challenge with no compliance for. Small, and mid sized practices, healthcare providers, and health tech bed just like another social good. I mean, it is extremely expensive and difficult to make sure that you are securing your data and patient mation in meeting all of these regulatory requirements of the security risk assessment. Every that has to primarily be done by security consultant training of evidence, twenty policies like it's. Just a lot for a small and growing business nonprofit to be able to do and so We really wanted to be able to service that community by saying look, we'll take it on We'll. We'll make sure that you are building the right type of hippo compliance program to make sure that your patients are protected your your staff is educated. And we'll do it at a price point. It's actually realistic unlike. Many other platform set can cause ten to thirty thousand dollars just to. Get to that level. So we were just just so happy to be able to do that with Michael with MD, and and really be be able to grow with them making sure the at the training is done for as they as they grow in their organization volunteers grow and then just making sure when we get back to I, don't know if there's ever going to be a normal but just making. Back. Whatever that is that you know just just like the focus of marginalized communities black. Communities why should their data not be as protected? You know what I mean really WanNa? Make that same level of protection in their information their data and people want to know people really are in the this addicts is crazy in terms of how many reaches have happened since Poland because people WanNa, know do you have it? So now now, more than ever I mean, it's the the Hello these records are at risk and we just really wanted to rice occasion and be able to do something statistic secure him. There's a gray area, right like with how much do you share to figure out a cure, but then you also still have to very much protect this data. Absolutely. Now and and I think there's there's. There's definitely a way to do it. You people just have to be careful that they at least make that attempt some some people, a lot of organizations they can't afford it. So they just. And they hope that they're not. They're not breached. They don't end up being that that organization but that's that's kind of why we take that focus off of of the healthcare providers that we work with because. You've got your patient cares what you're in it for right right Mississippi. But. You don't at the same time want to to be have liability. You don't want to have your patients information out fair but you also need that advisory. So we're we're tech, but we're also humans that actually I off you and sit with you and come up with a plan and a strategy with you because you can't always use technology to solve everything. So we kind of got that happy medium between the two. That's amazing. Go happy is so happy. I think she see under cells leagues exactly. How much like how critical that pieces for Michael going to be one thing? I didn't. Mention his you know through should harvests original mission to help professionals with student loan debt break the shackles of this debt. Deal do impact work I'm. So all of our community helped partners are volunteer help providers, PA's nurses, their doctors and social workers, students, active writers, but they all get either stipend towards your student loans or. A stipend towards emergency savings account on that. Waiting for yeah, and so because they're they're servicing by contacting patients and becoming basically essentially our volunteer of tethering force What we call our health court our citizens, how core they have to also be training and having them hippo trained and confined have five hundred people by overnight seems like. No Muslim but our. Of working with our smaller team, a pilot team that rule into another larger team that's a larger hoop because of that operative, what we're doing. Has, been, incredible and You know without Austrian Stacy's on or site Matt early on and also negotiating for us to make sure we have the best deals for eleven of the vendors and stuff as has been wonderful. I can't imagine. I mean like I get it. I mean I was you know I'm a nurse I have like a creative brain and I have a healthcare brain but like the big old science brain I do nurse and math health or like or like. All the other math and like scientific things that go along with technology I'm like the whole other world to me. So my hats off to you stacey. Thank you so much for like all of the work you do. Thank you. Well, I'm on my brain is got some other areas that need some help. For. The healthcare providers could. Get blood I'm. Like sends her kids like. My teenage. I love it I. Love It. Are you just doing the pop-ups in La Right now or are they? Do have one in Nashville. Do you. Is the big goal? The goal is to make this national. We have actually popped up in four different cities fautly pop up in Atlanta New York. And Los Angeles Three Major States Saying. We are hoping sometimes sumner. Up. In north. Carolina. And Yeah just keep growing as fast as we can. Yeah. Please, keep me posted if you pop up in Nashville or Memphis or anything like that like I am more than how I would love to to come and assist her again. Awesome. We will definitely put a shout out Memphis. I can get a I can get a crew of curve nurses and P. as in and docks that would probably love to come with. So that's fantastic. Ron. Here? Yes. I had another question about posture is it catered more towards? These smaller nonprofits. It's for anyone bet needs to be compliant. Okay. Bill that that's any organization that has electronic protect information patient health information. So that's all healthcare providers. That is any non-profit. That is dealing with patient pity patient information that's protected and it can be healthcare technologies that are accessing data. So all of those any any of those entities are required to have to be hippo compliant and but we mow we focus more on those could not afford to have like a on on staff security analysts are security officer but still need that same level of advice in an also a way to kind of get through the process and simply simply as possible in terms of training and policies. That's so amazing. Also loved that you I mean your company is predominantly women of color I think such statistics on it like forty six. are are women of color working with the OH. Yeah. I think when you have a woman of color as CEO, you're able to recruit little bit. Bit Better. Clearly They're smart incompetent people out there. Yes. Yeah I mean I think it's kind of like a dream Oh. Wow. I could work or someone that looks like me that yet. For support man you know and there are there's so many talented women women of Color but. There's no kind of pulling them up and saying come on go and so I I just I have an incredible team and credible women's team bet are just. Four thinkers brilliant technologies I couldn't do without him. I love at night. That's a recurrent theme here on the woman is how? Much I want to create a space where everyone can come here in see themselves represented in different fields and also just. Being a woman in being in like a seat of power. You know like like like urine stacey like bringing like other people to the table, you're bringing more women to the table with you and like just. Just showing what a force like women can be. Oh. Yeah. Absolutely. It's. It's one of the things that really excites me and known thing some of the people that I began to mentor brought into my organization. Now, showing up on the top, you know the top one hundred in the in the world as. An awesome going being recruited to speak at conferences in having their own you know. Sites of information that people are following is that's that's what I'm minute for. You know how to hear the next generation and have meant in and make sure that generation is you know a little more balanced than what we have now in terms of technologists having more women, women of color that are are being able to have the confidence and also the platform to to show all the great things they can do. and. Stacy's credit. You know when women come out women and men come up because. So that regard those mentor she's mentoring men to you know at Yom Lifetime's people forget that it's it's an all inclusive game. It's not one lane you know yeah I think I rep at article the security and I, was like Whoa. Go Quality. And the same thing also for pop ups, you know we had a mission and vision of getting out there to support background people in the community who were being disaffected and Everybody showed. Our. pop-up looks like Wade new CD's images of protests were. There's people from every single life out. There is the same thing at survive in tears are coming in every walk by. You know those of us who are pass now are ready to commit to change and balance show up, and that's the beauty of it all too well showing up for for humanity. Yeah and I think that's that's one constant I've been kind of holding onto you throughout this too is just a how much everybody is trying to show up for each other. So are they like donation base right now? Like are you getting tests donated or do you have to buy these? Is it like a government thing or and like just like supplies like like the the God the the the finger. The Lancet. God. been away from the bed. Long like land sets and lecture. ME. Thank you. The yeah. Is it getting donations from people who need? Yes. Yes. No we have. We've had to K for all of our skits. So anyone who knows abbots at or anyone up the chain of Abbot who wants to donate gets the rapid on Swab tests because we'd love to have them in terms of supplies we have been very blessed and fortunate to get spies from debt relief direct relief who has survived quite a few of our GP e and has done them several rounds what we absolutely can take donations. To condemn MD started rbis dot org or you know would be said lands. It's who we were buying them from Amazon and then Amazon had like a whole. So I had to go buy a batch because it was like a three weeks before we got the really easy ones with the. Like this bring activated. Yeah Yeah. So that we have to get those terrible ones are just like. That was like with those people that we. Initiated our consolation prize in Gibson colorful. BANDAIDS, so we WERE NAME ACID The spring. But yeah, you know we. Face Shield is a big thing. You know always having an facials huge now that we've gotten so many going in different places we wanted to have scrub fest where Allah. Volunteers have a certain colors sprouts represent their pop up and so we're starting to buy scrubs and things like that and so you know, yeah, I mean it's a it's a nonprofit. I. Want to see any donation condemnations you can write them off absolutely You can also invest in sponsoring apocalypse leads If you are business in your I, WANNA sponsor opera in Memphis. Why Not So, you just contact us at Cobham should his glory and we do everything man you can come and take pictures of the wonderful pop up in testing site usually testing sites. We see anywhere from two to three hundred people per testing up. So it's really cool in Oakland six, hundred people showed up. So we had to fundraise to get an additional day Sabella Zane talk about the need right the need? Real. It's so real unlike any other testing site we don't get Medicare Medicare reimbursement because we are relieved nonprofit and we're we weren't originally like help your F- actuate seats. It's all one hundred percent on raising and donations. services from Amman services? Wow. And back on the tests just things pop into my head here where are you guys doing like the nasal swabs or are you doing a serology? Nasal swabs in addition to this urology or are you wouldn't be something different here? Okay. Yeah. We're doing both with our ASEM dramatic. People want to be screen tested for surveillance purposes. We primarily do we do ANA by Not. Single out of in our Ed Art. ARAB ICING IS FDA and it's Aichi AB and G G. so I know there's a lot of conversations about antibody testing might take on bad is my take on the historic context around research and poor communities and how healthcare has really done a a disservice to communities of color because the conversations are having about antibody testing to be honest issue is another social experiment. It's an academic conversation that is leading to decision his way of not providing access to testing equally because if go affluent communities and neighborhoods people who have private insurance, they can get any one of those test. For some reason we're talking about trying to make sure anyone who is poor as not have a doctor or APP access to health care to get tests. Now, we have all these revenues around screaming testing so i. that's one thing that you know we don't talk enough about but. That's another reason why we got out there got ask. I'm so glad that you did I feel like people who who hear your story and like about. Making. These pop ups my getting out there and like serving these communities I feel like he's just going to empower more people to do that. Well, I, hope it does you know so that there's like you're not stretch those so thin and he might get a day off here there. What's What's next for for you guys or what's next for technology in medicine is a great question. I think you know an outlet Stacey really on rain this question but for me I think of technology getting back to being personal. Personal Humane You know there was a season that we were just before cold. Know BC before Kobe. Joke once and people are like it's a ADM like you're not getting it. Okay I. You Know we were really moving in a direction of everything was about box right? Mental health care and services get a for that. You know and now I think people especially with all this time span away from. Each other of the social distancing, he will do what to be heard. They won't be able to tell their stories and there's going to be a lot of stories to in told. Those stories informed the way we practice, and the best ways we practice and Bill Compassionate people used to be afraid of using the word compassion easy empathy, very more diplomatic. But compassion is really what we're were starving for some homes acknowledging matches what were starving for the And I'd I'd agree empathy technology, right? I. I. Don't know if that'll be a thing like empathy tech but. Make things. I. What brilliant? Oh my gosh. I think part of what I was mentioning about plus years like detect side of me and you know work with a bunch of developers and some of the some of the greatest minds in terms of cybersecurity in data privacy. We created something that was technic logically brilliant but didn't have the human aspect of it, and so we had to kind of stop and say, all right. Let's take all that is needed to make this easier for someone. But then let's put a human in front of it. Let's let someone they can really sit with you and let you tell them what's going. On what problems you're gonNA have and and then make sure you were building new technologies to solve that not just kind of write code in a bubble and so I think for for medicine for the world that we're now in there's going to be people that are one as we've seen on one very extreme side but what I've seen that just gives. Me So much joy is that we are coming together to bring our minds and technology in health together to see how can we help and support, and so just just like not necessarily I I think it's going to be really great great time to see how technology really does something to to move us forward as a people as a world because. I have friends ev only so many countries around the world were all talking about saying thing and it comes to technology. How do we track this? How do we help Let's really inspiring when it's not just you know it's not just the one community it's global challenge that people are rising up to. So I'm excited to be a part of it. I love it. I can't wait to see what you guys do I feel like. You're going to be on the cover of Forbes, and is pop up shops are going to be on like. All the major news networks and I, this is this has been an incredible conversation and bachelor of the data collecting thing I've been I feel like there's so many numbers out there that. that. Aren't getting reported effectively or early are. Like there's data that's not being collected right now and I think people are are hunting for like the media's giving out some numbers and then another instagram influencers giving this number cited by this person and I think it's it's so hard to find like the right actual data. Question. Are they really even collecting it? Know we started. From the beginning, we started class like a around how many people in the home you know generation of people on the hall you know what was your exposure before you know? As we start getting information than awesome people are like asking these questions. After the fact, but I just don't think people at I. Can't say people, I, based on my medical background and understanding and what I was seeing and reading people want just ask the right questions and a lot of that have to do was they were popping up or creating these texting sides that they were expecting a communities to come to them right and so you've already skewed your. Data when you put place where it's far festivals people to come to you know So I think that was it and then you know you know you data's only as good as those who want to invest in it. So if you don't have a diverse diverse board or diverse department of public event, you know in these cities, they're not asking the questions they're not gonNA care you know. And I'm not saying Matt in a malicious way is don't know what you don't know. You don't know. The rest. It was when You know I was talking to some patients who were dealing with you know family court issues because of cove it but no one ever thought like this affects family court. Well, yeah. Because at one appearance like they may have exposure to Kobe they go visit their dad. So then all of a sudden, the kid is not going to visit their data from one you know or you know like those little things someone who has Getting separated by her her kids and our kids to take care of. And then they end up in foster care. You know only leads that you don't think about it because you doesn't affect you. Then those are not issues in your ecosystem right and so we have to build more and this is where we say you can build a data you want on the technology but no one's GonNa get to the US of that if they're not human asking the right questions and if there's not enough the person asking questions actually has a learned experience or reference point to ask those questions and that's that's what I perceived beautiful and Maxwell. Yes. Like the perfect answer. Dr Not, thank you so much for taking the time out of your incredibly busy schedule to share your insights and all the hard work that you've been doing Stacey thank you so much as well I. I can't wait for people to listen to this episode and hear all of the hard work and stuff that you guys are doing and really start to bring those like medical and technical worlds together you guys are such an incredible team. Thank you so much. Where can people find you real quick. Are you guys on Instagram or anything like that or websites that you know people can contact you or or along with all the work that you're doing? Yes. For Michael William de we're on instagram. You can find this at shared obvious fund or a Michael Dion on Instagram, and then we're also on linked in a lot of. A lot of. Weight articles on on link Dan Should Harpist Fund. Yeah men. So he can find does on instagram twitter linked in postured up. So postured with the D. Up is our handle and you can follow a fair or reach out to me it. Only dense they seek. Awesome. I will put all that in the show notes. Thank you guys again so much I. Hope you have a great rest of your night. Thank you so much and take care of channel you two. Guys I truly can't wait to see what's next for Stacey Dr. Nana. If you're in the La area and want to volunteer or if you want to donate or host to Kobe pop up, had to cove it MD DOT org. There's so much awesome information on their. Follow along with their projects on Instagram at Third Harvest Fund. At Mike COVID MD.. And at Haas, turned up on instagram and twitter an online holstered dot I go. As always pleased the, I'm your nursed energy moments to me at the Wool Med till next week woman out.

Stacey Dr. Nana US Amazon Mike COVID MD Stacy Memphis Kurt Med Arctic Matt Dr Nana instagram Kirk Molly I. Womack becher
Monitor Show 14:00 02-10-2021 14:00

Bloomberg Radio New York - Recording Feed

01:42 min | 2 months ago

Monitor Show 14:00 02-10-2021 14:00

"Food is out there. I'm unwrapping mcdonnell steak egg and cheese bagel. Look this steak and juice running down the side. Go little bit on rapper. Here and then a fluffy egg and cheese folded oversaw looking. Just so good Grilled onions on a bagel. Two thumbs off madonna steak egg and cheese bagel for breakfast love it more baba baugh participating mcdonald's bloomberg radio bloomberg interactive brokers studio fan from tim's home in brooklyn streaming. On youtube is wednesday february. Ten twenty twenty. Carol massar along what tim son avec and not exactly a fed wednesday. But we're going to hear from the fed chief in just a few minutes. Tim minutes right here to rome. Powell is going to start speaking in just a couple of minutes. Then he's gonna do a q. And a when he's done speaking so a lot of becher politics. Yeah and i think it's really timely. Considering there so much debate about do we spend too much in terms of stimulus. What does that mean for inflation. You know what we need to do to get the economy going. So we're gonna take there to the economic club of new york in just a moment for steptoe. Let's set up the trading day for you here. Is charlie pellett developing story. in fact we've got some headlines from that speech pitcher. Jay powell saying the. Us is still very far from a strong labor. Market also says achieving full employment needs a society wide commitment again Those headlines fed chair. Jay powell will have the speech for you coming up in a moment right here on bloomberg radio. Quick check of the markets way right now looking at the s. and p. five hundred index lower by three little change down one tenth of one percent stocks on track for a second straight drop. We have got the dow pushing higher but.

baba baugh bloomberg radio bloomberg inte Carol massar tim Jay powell madonna becher charlie pellett mcdonald brooklyn Powell youtube fed rome steptoe Tim new york bloomberg Us
Why Shame Is A Bad Public Health Tool  Especially In A Pandemic

Short Wave

14:48 min | 9 months ago

Why Shame Is A Bad Public Health Tool Especially In A Pandemic

"You're listening to shortwave. From NPR. Believe me I get it. I'm frustrated and angry to. After all, it's been four months of this. We know the right things to do. And when you see someone wearing a mask or groups of people hanging out close together, it's easy to get mad, even if in all fairness. Once or twice. Open defiance at this Castle Rock Colorado restaurant large crowds, no social distancing, and there's some news coverage right now. That caters to this anger. You know what I'm talking about. Many Americans are out and about on this memorial day visiting newly reopened businesses seems from the unofficial kickoff to the summer showing many Americans not practicing social distancing measure. I'm telling you to wear a mask where a damn ask, but this Kinda thing anger public shaming the urge to yell at people who aren't doing the right things. That can be precisely the opposite of productive. Yeah, as the researcher I've been. Watching all this unfold through that Lens Julia Marcus is an epidemiologist and professor at the Harvard. Medical School, she said he's HIV prevention. And for scientists Julia, who work in HIV or sexual health or even substance abuse? They know that shame can be a huge barrier when it comes to public health, and in these first few months of the Cova pandemic I was watching this same pattern happen where you know, these kind of absolutist public health messages and moralistic undertones were potentially contributing to what became rampant shaming of people who were flouting public health guidelines or doing things that people felt. Felt were high risk, and when we shame people for their risky behavior in a way that distracts us from where risk is really happening, which is typically much less visible like in prisons and nursing homes and food, processing plants, and those don't inspire the same moral outrage. I think for two reasons one. They're not right in front of our faces, but also to we don't think of those as people having fun and a pandemic which I think people really upset. Matt rage, Julia says might feel good to act on in the moment, but it's not gonNA solve our biggest problems right now. I find that taking that rage home, and really screaming alone has been very helpful for me to. Do that as well or you know my rage these days first of all I would say that knows no bounds, but also. To be honest. My regions more directed at institutional failures than individual ones. To episode Julia Marcus on the role. Shame plays in public health crises. We talk masks. School reopenings in the long road ahead. I'm Maddie's defy, and this is shortwave daily science podcast from NPR. Julia Marcus has written a bunch of great pieces for the Atlantic about why. Shame is not helpful right now and how we can do things better. She's looked this when it comes to mask wearing social distancing and how we open college campuses, we talked about all those things, but the first thing to say here is that there is a fine line between public shaming and some positive forms of peer pressure. I, yeah I WANNA make a distinction here between social norms and shaming I. think social norms are very powerful and. That can be one of the best ways I think to change. Health behavior is like well. Everybody else is doing it so I'm going to do it because it's more like i. want to feel good when I go in the grocery store and I'm not gonNA. Feel great if I'm the only one not wearing a mask, so, but there's a difference between making people feel bad about their risky behavior and making people feel good about engaging and protective behaviors as a way of like becoming part of What the new social norm is Marie right? Right Okay Julius. You've written a bunch of great pieces for the Atlantic. Let's talk about your most recent one I. It's you know how to not open colleges this fall. You started out by describing an email that went out to students at Tulane University earlier this month July seventh. What what happened there? Yeah I mean I I I don't WanNa. Pick on two lane here. Becher, that was it just an example of some of the communications that were starting to see toward students who are on campus this summer and have been having some parties. And there was an email that we're not to students that really condemned stat behavior as disrespectful, indefensible, dangerous selfish, and made it very clear in bold all caps that hosting parties of more than fifteen people would result in suspension or expulsion from the university and that if students wanted the school to remain open, they needed to be personally responsible. I'm in their behavior and When a university says, we will hold you accountable for having a party, and actually there will be dire swift punishment when inevitably there is an outbreak at a party. Students are going to be terrified to disclose that they were there. And students have now said this at the University of Connecticut were interviewed and surveyed about what kind of thing is going to work for them what their concerns are about the fall. And they universally said we. We are early close to universally said we're really afraid of how infection and risky behavior are going to be stigmatized such that we outbreaks will not be able to be controlled, so there needs to be appropriate consequences for putting your community at risk, and I would never say otherwise but that needs to be balanced against the need for public health efforts to be separate from discipline. And we've already seen contact tracing start to break down outside of campuses, because people are afraid to talk about having been at event that that they know is something they should not have been doing yeah. So. You know kind of following that thread. The part of this pandemic that's been hardest for a lot of people is is social distancing in in several of your pieces you wrote about how a lot of the advice especially in the beginning was almost like an abstinence based approach like stay home. See Nobody which absolutely made sense kind of at the. The beginning, but tell me about why. That approach doesn't necessarily make sense for the long-term well asking people to abstain from all social contact indefinitely or until we've scaled up. An effective vaccine is just not going to be a sustainable public health strategy, and I think now our messaging has evolved a bit especially as there's been an accumulation of evidence around. The risk is highest like what's settings or higher risk, in which ones are lower risk, but I think we continue to still have a tendency toward absolutist messaging and I think that our goal should be to two inch. People tour to a place where they are living their lives in a way that addresses all aspects of their health, while trying to keep tr- risk of transmission low, and so one way that that could play out is encouraging outdoor activities, especially in spacious areas, opening up more outdoor space for people, and there's been a tendency to close beaches and close parks where people gather, but. But I actually think doing the opposite on could could be helpful, but the essential point is. We can't stay in our homes forever and many people couldn't stay in their homes for the last few months because they were working sure, but it's clear from other areas of public health that asking people to abstain from something that they fundamentally need or strongly desire is not an effective public health strategies, so we have to find ways of making our messaging more nuanced, that allows people to get what they need to be able to live sustainably while keeping the risk of transmission low until you there. There are examples of nuanced messaging from others accessible public health campaigns. Right I. Mean You work on HIV? Can you give me an example of that? Yeah, so we you know we don't tell people don't have sex. Because that's the best way to not get HIV, we may save the safest thing you can do to avoid HIV transmission is not have sex, but we understand that many people are going to have sex, and that it's a you know a part of a healthy life, and so here are some safer ways to have sex, both in terms of certain sexual acts in in terms. Terms of protection different ways you can protect yourself and you know becomes a more nuanced message, but it's much more sustainable for people and realistic and the long term, and it also acknowledges people's basic human needs right, and there's also this idea that talking about ways to reduce risk encourages people to take those risks, even though from a public health standpoint. We know that isn't true. So I'm wondering Julia like. Why do people hold onto this concern? Like what is this really about yeah I, mean this is definitely not new. It comes up a lot. I think especially around drug, use and sex. And I think the reason it especially comes up in those settings is that those are behaviors that we have a lot of moral judgments about particularly in this country, and there's this kind of moral outrage that happens when we think about people engaging in risky, which is often pleasurable, behavior, sex, drug use, and these days going to the beach like. it's kind of playing out in this new way now with social contact and partying and people having a good time in a pandemic, which it's actually a public health win when we find ways to support people in enjoying their lives, and and getting their basic social or sexual needs, met while remaining a safest possible, and you've made the point that we've. We've already seen this play out with the corona virus, public health officials, hesitating to give people detailed ways to protect themselves instead of avoiding risk altogether, I mean I remember. We reported early on in this pandemic when Dr Burks of the White House Coronavirus Task Force said. We don't want people to get this artificial sense of protection because they're behind a mask. This lack of consistent messaging is one of the reason that a lot of people still aren't convinced that masks are helpful, so you know. Julia, how do public health officials effectively reach? Those people yeah I mean I. Think in general we always see some resistance to any new public health intervention, condoms, and you know pre exposure prophylaxis for each V. I mean every intervention that comes out. There's resistance. There's challenges with implementation. There are moral concerns you know. This is all kind of par for the course, but I think what's new here and a bit different is not necessarily just the polarization which we do, see an Ciaran things like vaccines, but the politicization. Politicization I don't think there has been I can't think of an example where a sitting president has flouted public health recommendations and I think that that has created kind of a politicized around masks. That wouldn't have necessarily been there and so how do we overcome that? And how do we reach people I think again it comes back to hearing people's concerns, acknowledging them, and then working to overcome those barriers in our messaging and I. Think there are some good examples of that there have been a couple of great mask campaigns that have come out of California acknowledging that people dislike wearing them and acknowledging the reasons why people dislike wearing them. And I would guess that they are more effective in reaching certain populations than campaigns that that are more focused on this. Just wear ask. It's really easy kind of messaging. Yeah and don't you care about your community and don't you want to not kill people and That kind of messaging is like early days of AIDS. Messaging around condoms that I think was not as successful as the messaging that really focused on what the barriers were, and how people could overcome them. Yeah, yeah, with all this stuff that we've been talking about colleges masks. You know keeping safe distance. It's pretty tough because the stakes feel so high like this is really a nasty virus, and when we see people, you know not doing the right things, the instinct there to shame them to get mad for a lot of us at first instinct and I. I guess it's just that we need to take some patients to push past them. Yeah, I mean I, think it's really. Valid to feel angry about what's happening right now, and for people who are not necessarily taking care of themselves or their community and putting other people at risk. It's very frustrating to see, but I think especially for public health professionals. It's on us to do the work to avoid the shaming and the anger and the moralizing in our messaging. Because we've learned that that doesn't work in other areas of health and really try to take the time to craft messaging. That is going to be more effective. Julia Marcus. Checkout episode notes for a link where you can find her writing to the Atlantic. Can say the Atlantic is crushing it these days, but the magazine, not the ocean. I mean maybe the Ocean to I'm not sure what's up to. This episode was produced by Brett Bachman edited by Deborah George in fact. Checked, Rebecca. Ramirez I'm Maddie Safai. Thanks for listening to shortwave from NPR. Until recently admitted Hong says he didn't speak out against racism because he was scared. Listen now on the codes which podcast from NPR.

Julia Marcus NPR Atlantic HIV Maddie Safai Castle Rock Colorado Harvard researcher WanNa Medical School Matt rage Becher Tulane University Marie University of Connecticut Rebecca Hong professor California
Unknown Caller S1 Side B Episode 18

Not Another Horror Podcast

32:38 min | 23 hrs ago

Unknown Caller S1 Side B Episode 18

"Hello helen is available to take your call. Please leave a message after home. Telephone an invention. That changed the way the world communicated before the telephone was invented. People communicated in a lot of different ways they sent letters. I mean it took fair to deliver just one some use drums to beat at a message. Some use fire to communicate. They sent smoke signals. They sit messages from one hilltop to another by raising or lowering. A sim force towers arms. If it was foggy no one could see the message. People will put a message into little containers on a carrier pigeons leg. The bird would fly to the person receiving the message to get the gist. When telephones i became available to the public. Many people were afraid that other people could listen in on their conversations is actually did happen. Party lines where more than one household shooter line with other household also some operators in small communities listen in conversations because well they were nosy. Like lot of us. Let's be honest are headed a lot of time on their hands with nothing else to do. Telephones also allow people to spread the news quicker. The news sometimes just gossip. There is something magical about. Sounds coming from a thin wire and also something terrify. Many elderly people refused to touch telephone for fear of electrical shot. Others tried to take advantage at the telephone and some towns people suffering from various illnesses went to the telephone stations in the hope that the electrical impulses received by their bodies would cure them. One of the biggest fears. However was that the telephone was in some way able to attract evil spirits or at least thunder and lightning and some towns. It was difficult to even find a manager for the telephone station since there was widespread concern about the possible effects of the telephone lies and eletricity in the station. Tonight's horror tales. Take place on something. We all have a phone. Whether is nine one. One calls or strange voicemails. Make sure you have all the turned off before listening to this episode. And this is your first time here. I'm your host and curator of all things strain gen unexplained anthony rosetti and this is episode eighteen of not another whore podcast Our first case tonight takes place in marshall minnesota on march fourteenth two thousand eight eighteen year old brennan. Swinson was on his way home from celebrating the end of the spring semester. With fellow students for minnesota's west community and technical college can be campus. He called his parents to inform them that he had been in. Some sort of accident. Brandon had accidentally crashed into a ditch with his car but luckily he wasn't injured. His parents annette. And bryant's getting their pickup truck and drove out to where they thought he was keeping him on the phone. Despite occasional hangups jobs brandon stayed with his car and tried to signal them by flashing his lights on and off on and off on and off but they saw nothing nor did he see them. Do the same brennan finally gave up and told them he was leaving the car to walk towards delights he could see led him to believe he was near lind a small town roughly seven miles or eleven kilometers southwest of marshall. He told his father to head for the parking lot of a local bar and wait for him there. Brian begin driving. They're talking to his son as he did shortly after two. Thirty eight am forty. Seven minutes into the call brandon suddenly interrupted himself on the phone and said l. Shit he was silent for the remainder of this call until his parents hung up in attempted to call back. Brendan has not been seen or heard from. Since the next day is search team was sent. It found no traces of him and they couldn't understand what lights he had seen. Our next case is caitlin canadian. You see on. August fourth. Two thousand sixteen caitlyn called nine one one saying had killed her two year old son. When police arrived they found her standing in the main stairway leading to her upper level apartments she allegedly came officers. Would they large butcher knife ignoring commands to drop the knife and get down on the ground. Officers yelled at her to put down the knife. You can even hear it on some of the other number one idea. She eventually dropped the knife and got on the ground on what became aggressive officers went to arrest her and he stun gun was deployed to subdue her after she was taken into custody officers entered the apartment and founding lifeless child in a cardboard box that had two other boxes stacked on top of it in a hallway closet in an interview with police consider allegedly admitted to killing the boy by placing a plastic grocery bag over his head and suffocating him. Which you're about to. Here's a clip from the nine one. One call emergency come here. What's the address. Okay what's the problem. I killed my son. You what i tell my son. How did you kill your son. I strangled strangled. Your son. he's been done for a little bit. How long has he been dead. Like a half an hour okay. Is there anyone else in the home with you. Know okay what is your name. Ma'am sadie. Ged what is your last name either. Okay can you tell me what happened. That led up to this katie. Have noise yeah okay. Do you have any weapons or anything with you right analogy you know okay and again you tell me how old is your son is two two years old okay. I'm just going to stay on the phone here with you. Okay and katie. Said nobody else is home with you right now. No okay all right anything going on with you I feel like it was awesome. Okay all right. Have you been having some problems or all it okay. What kind of problems are you having. I don't know. I wanna die okay. How long is it gonna be. It'll be just a little bit. It's being dispatched as i'm talking to you or talking to you right now. Okay okay where where are you in conjunction to your son you in the same room right now. No no okay is what room of the house is he and his after his bedroom. And do you believe he could maybe still be alive. No no katie. Katie katie hello. Are you still here knife. You have a nice. What kind of nice did you get. No no we've all got in calls from unknown numbers and we tend to avoid them especially in the world of telemarketers scams. Always calling you becher. Cars extended warranty but a writ user by the username phone message original as for the help of ready to figure out who was calling his mother's phone. I'm going to read you that post right now and after that we will listen to the call a couple of years ago. My mother called me from neighbors house and hysterical state because someone had taken over her home phone. She's very independent but elderly has failing vision and liz alone in greeley colorado. Her neighbors checked out the phone and seemed okay so my mom eventually calmed down and went home then. A few days later it happened again. My mom was inconsolable and refused to go back into her house. Her neighbor told me she could not stop shaking. I urgently took time off work and travel to colorado the next day to help her. I tested her phone and couldn't find anything wrong. But i said i stay with her for the next week to make sure she was okay. I thought she was going a little mad and was desperately trying to work out how i could move to colorado permanently to live closer to her. I was horrified. When i discovered what was really going on when she lifted the receiver rather than the dow tone. She heard a creepy message. I'm not surprised at terrified. Her hill if freaked me out to over the next few days. I figured out that the message only came between seven pm. His seven fifteen pm any other time of day there was a normal dial tone in the phone where normally the phone did not ring at seven. Pm or anything. It was just that if you lifted the receiver to make a call between seven to seven fifteen pm. You'd get the finisher message rather than the dow tone if it was before seven fifteen pm and you hung up the phone and then lifted the receiver again. The message play again from an start if you hung up and then immediately as in within a fraction of a second litter the receiver gin line would appear to be dead until seven fifteen. My mom's phone has a connector forehead. Says i managed to record the message on my laptop the day after i recorded message. The phone was dead for most of the day. I call the phone company. But they said they couldn't find any fault and when do anything in the evening. I tried to take another recording to see whether the message had changed but it was gone and there was just a normal tone. The message has never come back good. My mom still frightened about using her phone. Ever since i've tried to discreetly figure out what it was all about and was got to do with my mom get nowhere. South decided to post my recording on the internet to help see if anyone can help connecting you please hold the line. Aws stations who fox straw seven seven to lose foxtrot seven seven status alert count for status alert count for security tracing in progress. Attention attention attention whisky whisky zero nine reading november for four danger hotel hauge eight seven. Reading hotel quebec three nine reading kilo. Five aid reading foxtrot. Charlie you three reading november november one as trigger victor yucky. Nine to reading lima shirley. Five six security attention attention attention just to be clear. This is not a joke. Troll or whatever as has been pointed out it might be pranked. Someone's pulled on my mom but it would be insanely elaborate if it is. I'd really like to know if anyone has any info a youtuber. By the name of kevin k- posted an odd voicemail. He got on june thirty two thousand eight at eight nineteen pm. See if you can make out with their say mom. Lying talk Now for those of you who are bigfoot believers. The next call should be right up your alley if family call to till number one that they were being stalked by an unidentified creature police fire or her man I thought he biggest better but it it. I'm almost female. I live right in the middle of the woods around one thirty one north of clairon a of the wider. The pain seventy five feet away from me now. Awful empowered our old your coaches and then and like creamed street and across the three and pm. Pay you that. I'm dead serious l. Something very big figure about bigger than me out here. So you probably really don't know what to do about it however catherine I won't like immediately right. I just yeah. I don't know animal control. I mean it means again. Now tell me where was it. This one fifty one and collider okay. Yeah white light at one one from calera on a game on i four split and you can get off on the actor declare or you can take one one right at light right. There is yes right in there. It is a very large airy animal on some hard. Now the on or horror or all the way you're gonna pay. I'm hearing it off at breaking when trees at it breach. How and very creepy carry a like an. I live in in the would. How can we ever had the out homeless email. I live in a tent. In the would and i found this fake e scary very nature of our year and run off road Throw no way that we could have all young yet a number. But i really prefer like animal control or somebody bigger than me. I appreciate it. I commend you. Should know that. There's very large hannibal and thirty. How you're was walking around and the gear was doug got devour with a target okay. Mdc time advocate the word. whatever Actually i'm not. I'm not gonna go check it out right at the moment. I'm glad okay. Wait for daylight i got. I don't own anything but machete kit. So i'm gonna eight out like i said there's a very large pumping big enough. He'll eat here and i am if they. Espn contact out there. I'm not going to leave my aunt part at the moment. I mean i. I wanna come up with the white ones that we're not leaving where we're at is on. Find the say. I'm a little bit aired in training and I just want maybe check it out in the morning when it's not dr won't go when i do right now. I could have an entrepreneurial that area which direction dateline was great. I'm going through the lie. That one victory one looks a lot of power on feed like my dad wanted to make asian the now the thing before. Now we're going away. The shoes i won't they've out now in the woods of never seeing you very odd. Now i'm i'm i'm lane so a third. Yeah very large. I heard oh yeah early. A ferry arkansas. All we care being nothing like this. I i wanna believe that it was a large hat or bear but i'm i'm aching value but i think that is you think it is. I don't know. But i do not move into that dude and i'm paying out that in bigger than okay. Oh you saw it. Walk it which run or walk in which direction Toward the lies at one fifty one in one thousand went towards the waters area and free. How when a world other my my husband's a very wide. Nothing's ever scared him. I mean do. We go from clothing her now. No it was. Okay like light night out over and We have never fire. And i have a like a a blanket. Hangs on that. And i thought over the top of that and when it roy to own bar of a grizzly bear imagine that although a i i know i hear what okay and if you are and what is your name. Planing now. eight by emissary won't do that area what we can find. I know i mean you might be able to find an animal able to find something in the morning tag dontrelle around the area. So and yet she office and get away and her our irene. Man of the would our next story centers on an air force captain by the name of gary brink. He planned his surprise return trip to new york to visit his friends and family without telling them. Upon arriving at the airport. Gary was approached by man he later described as looking normal and being well-groomed the man who had a clipboard. Ask gary what his name was. How was spelt where he was headed and other personal questions believing. The man was attempting to sell him something. Gary ignore the man in gatt onto his flight. But a second man gary specify that it wasn't the same person got onto the plane and sat next to him yet again. He was asked for personal details though. It didn't take long for a stewardess to request to see the mass ticket after being given it the second clipboard man was told that he was in the wrong seat and he had to move upon arriving in new york gary contacted close friend of his and told him that he just landed in new york city to his shock. His friend responded by saying what are you talking about. You told me you were coming to new york yesterday. Gary stated that he done no such thing but his friend is insistent that he called him even going so far as say that he sounded like he had a stuffy nose. It was coming down with a cold not wanting to bicker. Gary ignored and goes his parents house. Surprised them all goes well until that night. Which is when things got really weird then night. Someone called gary and requested to speak to him. The caller said to have a robotic voice which gary was quick to begin recording. These calls will take place until the following night for cost total three the first night and one the following night after the fourth they ceased entirely. Yes this is me speech. I x y you can. I ask why you calling. Yes this is that is me senate again upstate. Right ear worker. Is this a joke in concord about that. I'd like to see you contact. Let me tell you something. I've been listening to you. And i had contact with you. Walk goatman beards. You have a please explain what type of interference okay. Her some will rise in the off side. Okay what branch of the government. what what should i do okay. Is that good or bad. Playing games are going gonna kick your ass home origin. You or your horse. She's steep idiot knee jerk. I'm gonna get you. Let's see what it says review. What new call out of area stephen out of the area for your call. Berg touch it again. Pursue way fish stephen out of the calling area. What would you. You don't know he's in queens. Rick is it slow to be was against the euro forty. Oh sorry you've seen it again. Hello last but certainly not least. We had the call of ruth in this call. An elderly woman identifies herself as a ruth. Last name censored what is widely believed by internet's loose. The her last name was price. Douglas are both. She tries to give her location. But the operator cuts her off and as what. The problem is ruth expresses concerns about a suspicious man lurking around her apartment. Operator ask wore the man currently is and ruth says that she doesn't know after that things take a turn for the worse. Here's a lords debate on the internet. If this is a real call take a listen and make your own conclusion whereas some guy been kicking the place south where i have an apartment in the vatican going. He would welcome for a guy. Thank my door wrong. I'll alone him. I have no idea there up supper show for this evening and sorry was a little bit longer but i am feeling under the weather. But we're getting closer and closer to that season finale. Remember if you like to show you can always rate it on apple podcasts or pie chaser stay safe. Stay sane and don't answer any unknown calls.

anthony rosetti Swinson west community and technical c katie brennan brandon marshall Katie katie minnesota colorado caitlyn victor yucky lima shirley lind kevin k annette becher
How to Love Yourself - and Other Topics

Just Think

34:25 min | 2 years ago

How to Love Yourself - and Other Topics

"Hello, another episode of just thing, my his Taylor, and I will be your today. We'll be revisiting with a previous guest of the show. His name is Alex Williams. For those who don't know him. He is part of the podcast network that I'm loosely part of little gray, boy, and he has some pretty wonderful shows, my favorite of his is my wax museum, where he sits down and talks to people in his life about various topics, on interviews them about their life experiences, and worldviews and stuff like that. And I actually was on his show couple of weeks back are on the time that we first interviewed each other ams so you can go check out that episode. This is a very impromptu conversation about, you know, liking yourself. So it will be very laid back, I figured of all the stuff that's happening this week. It would be beneficial for us to have a more laid back conversation on this podcast, especially with the week prior being about abortion. Some I figured you guys might want something more laid back and relaxed and we'll go back to some hard hitting topics next week. So enjoy the show out. Swims? This was a wonderful conversation, and definitely check out his show, especially my axiom and especially but not right now. But especially the episode that I was on, because it's a cool upset need to learn a little bit more about me from a biographical point of view unless of an intellectual wants so. Yup. So without further ado, let's go ahead and get started right after this quick message. Do you enjoy learning about weird things that happened in our everyday life woman, does Crotty son gets nude dog steals corn bread mix from WalMart? Police say man Mary's hologram UK installs knife, surrender been took her knife crime, criminals steal all the knives. Just search Tessa and Elliott argue that's E, L, I OT, or visit Tessa Elliott argue dot com. Record the Skype just in case. It's nice to have it when it goes bad. But if you can send me your end that'd be awesome. Yes. Yes, I will. All right. Supporting. So don't say anything too stupid. Hobby, only very cautious here. I don't know. You don't have to hospice can't be outrageous. How about that? Just don't be stupid. No nazis. I'm not anoxia. So I think most people are not funny late, that, that whole thing was pisses me off so much. Yeah. Yeah. They're very. Overused the oh, yeah. Yeah. So liking yourself. 'cause I I've been kind going through this thing lately, where I where I have actually I've like. I used to be very intense and always going to parties going out to events and stuff. Right. I like a party animal or anything, but I love being social, I'd always drop in on people. And, and now I've found in my life that I just really enjoy alone time I love being on my own. Sounds like you have your converting to introverted nece. Well, I don't know if it's being introverted 'cause I still really enjoy going out and chatting with people, but I feel less of a longing towards it. So it's more like, you know, you don't have you don't feel the need to constantly be going out in partying, or whatever in your you kind of enjoying the reflection that's coming with just being by yourself and thinking and working out through problems. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's exactly right. Cool. That is like me to, to. You have never been apart here. So I totally get that. Where do you think that like recently stemmed from was there, a particular event or particular thought process, the gut you starting on that path? I feel like I, I always. I don't know. I slowly came, I guess, to terms almost with who I am as myself, and who I enjoy the like, I feel like I've worked to a point where I actually enjoy the person I am enough that I'm not trying to drown it out by going and being around all these other people. Okay, if that makes sense. So what were you trying to draw out when you were going to, like, what were you uncomfortable with or what were you wanting to ignore? I was uncomfortable with myself, you know, I'm uncomfortable with my personality with how I looked how I felt about myself and I just didn't want to hear it. And I feel like a lot of people a lot of people are like that. You know, and we all go through that at different times with different things. Right. Right. And, and so it was kind of my way of ignoring might own emotions in my own thought. It's not that I have like at ton of baggage that I was putting off right. Yeah. But I just enjoyed not dealing with it. Right. That's pretty intuitive to channeling in the human nature to be social. I mean, we're, we're creatures that in our DNA in our structure were meant to congregate into groups and we find, you know, it's not like. It's not security, but it is security, we find comfort in other people even for introverts the numbers like one or one two, three while an extra verse, obviously they can handle larger groups. So it doesn't necessarily have to be that, you know, you're, you're unhappy with yourself that you may find. Yes, something comforting about me with other people. So, right. And that's, that's something super intuitive that I wish more people understood about human nature's that we are in social, so is there's nothing wrong with enjoying the company others. Some people definitely think down that path where like, oh, I'm not happy with myself. So I feel that I have to fill this void with other people. And it's like, well, it's not that you're unhappy with yourself as that you have to ev- every now and then succumb to your instincts, because we are still creatures. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Like you you're. You have to spend time with other people in there. There's nothing wrong with that. I just think that it's the meaning behind it. Right. And I think for a lot of my life, I was spending that time with those people because I didn't want to spend time with myself, rather than an actual desire to just want to be around those people. Right. Yeah. Will being with yourself as a scary thing, you let your mind go on a dull ter-, you know, for forty minutes, you can go in some really weird rabbit holes like mistrial. Dangerous. Yeah. In and you get bored as well. You're just sitting there like I gotta do something I feel like a feel like sometimes you just have to let yourself, be bored and do nothing. Yet will your brain needs to reset iming. It's an electrical circuit. If you're constantly hammering it out circuits fried, and that's not a metaphor. That's the truth. Yeah, you got to let it chill every now and then. Yeah. Okay. So you started partying less, and, you know, you're finding more like more alone time. But also, you, you put an emphasis on you said boredom, but I'm going to say you know resting. Again, was there any like, what made you realize that resting was important was did you just like kind of happen to be bored for a little while when this is nice or like something? Tell you or did you go through something? What's up? It's just been kind of a long process, like I think, at some point, I acknowledged that that was the issue, I realize, like oh, you know, I I'm going out. And I'm just spending time with these people, I know. And I mean, when I say partying, it's like very Christian version of partying, right? Like it's just hanging out playing board games, but I would stay out later than I maybe wanted to, like inside. I knew while I gotta be up tomorrow early. Right. But I just kind of let it prolong. I couldn't say no to hang out with people. I always just went to did it and, and eventually, just does the point where I realized, like I'm staying up way later than I should. I'm neglecting, lot of personal things in my life, including homework and work itself. Right. And so just kinda got to that point where I thought this is unhealthy. And then I started saying. N-no and spending time actually doing the things I should do and found homework. Isn't that bad? It's not that bad, if you enjoy it. Yeah. So just be careful. You don't go too far the other direction you know what I mean? Well, yeah, exactly. All right. Is that was definitely me? I was deaf. I definitely grew up. And I said, no allot actual outta time. When I was younger, I said, no, not because so much wanted to not do things, but more so that I couldn't and when I was old enough to where it could was in that mindset. It is important, though, to find something that interests you in your off time to occupy yourself because. Yeah, if you find your homework interesting, which is probably good thing if you're what you're studying in your interest in it. That's a great thing because I definitely didn't had that the last two years of my undergrad. I was so ver. And so I keep myself with different things, you know, in my senior year is podcast. So it's important to have that figured out. So. In what ways you know, since you're kind of taking his opportunity to learn a little bit more about yourself into appreciate yourself little bit more in what ways has your work quality of life quality of work gotten better. You know, some insight listeners gleaned from you from that. Well for one, I'm not behind on homework. You know. So I've seen my grades benefit from it. I've also seen my work life benefit from it. I'm actually able to provide better services for my clients, because I actually take the time out of my day to work for them instead of doing every project at the last second. Right. And end it opens up a lot of creative avenues as well. I find I find I do I do better work because I give myself more time to accomplish it. I can say, oh well, let's try this. Okay. Well that didn't work as well. Let's try that instead of saying, okay, well, I just got to get it done. So just do the thing that I know kind of works in all off just push it out. Be done with it. You know, though to the next thing, right? Although I did have an econ professor. You might appreciate this might econ professor said, it's always best to leave things till the last minute, because there's always a chance, you're going to die between now and the dude, eight so you might as well just do things you enjoy now and push it off, and sir. No, but he followed it up with. That's just a joke. Do your homework. Please. Right. Yeah. It's, it's, you know, there's like I see your logic. But that's a bad idea. As a procrastinator. It is not a good thing in now that the focus on not procrastinating. Yeah. Because you just graduated didn't she I graduated a three weeks ago as recording four weeks ago. Recording on I started law school last week. Holy cow. That's a long break. You got there. It was amazing. Yeah. It was. It was the worst break ever. It was nonstop. I graduated moved worked my girlfriend did come up to my hometown for a week. That was cool while she was there still working doing shit. And then while they're my e rating on. And then. And the moved here that was hectic in crazy weird in the been here either. So that's awed. But I guess I digress. So, yeah. So now you've gotten through unite your homework work on better. I have a I have a hunch that your friends haven't minded minded might that amount. They haven't mound, sir. How's your social life in late respectful of this recent change, or I think, for the most part, they're pretty respectful of it. I mean I get people asking me to come in. Hang out, which, I really appreciate. And I usually do go usually go and spend that time with them, but I'm also very aware that I do have other things I need to do like tonight, I was invited to go out and play games. And I I went for half an hour I played a fun game. I chatted with, you know everybody there for a second. And after the game was over, I said, well, okay, got ahead out. Right. And they and this was kind of an interesting saying they said, well, don't you want to continue playing this game, and I said it is really fun. And I can't say that I don't want to play it because I'm enjoying it. I would like to However, I have other priorities. I said, I have a podcast I need to edit, and I've got some homework, Randy to get done. And, and they, you know, they kind of asked, you know, will one more I said while no sorry you know, and it's. Okay to just tell people I have other priorities. I enjoyed this. This is fun. But other things take precedent and people respect that and for the listeners who might be listening to that goal. Let's little little harsh for me. You know you can you can follow that up with, you know, maybe not right now. But how about you need pick a date, you know, if you know gonna be free Tuesday night. How about tonight chances are they'll say, no because they'll be busy with their own things, and you can feel better and everyone's happy. Yeah, exactly. And you, you can always like you said, you can always schedule something. And if you schedule it, if you say this time is going to be dedicated for this, then you just respect that time you said, that's the time for this, and I will be there for this. Right. Right. And I also wanna make distinction to listeners who might be tempted to take this too far finding time for yourself. Sometimes yourself as with other people to don't take it as you have to be in solitude, if time for yourself means you're playing Catan with four other people are three other people. So be go play. Time you enemy you don't there's this tendency when people talk about finding time for themselves, meditation, whatever whatever, you know, treating themselves that has to be singular in smut truth. It may be for me. It may be for you. It may not be for whatever. But don't get hung up on that fell. That's that's a, that's a really good point. It doesn't have to be alone. Exactly. But you've recently have found that you like a loan. So what else have you been doing in your longtime outside of homework work in podcasting? I've been reading, actually which which is really strange for me. I read two books before a before becoming adult to books in my whole life before eighteen and, and so that, you know, but the now I since then I've read a lot more. I've read a lot of stuff and I'm reading a fantasy series by, you know, Tim from the little boy podcast network that were. He has the nights nerves podcast anyways. Yes, he says, that I know I know names by that, right. Yeah. By their podcast. Yeah. I mean that's the way it is for most people in, in that little group. But I'm reading his book series, it's like a fantasy series. I'm reading it. I'm loving it. I'm almost on the second book already way. You've written a book. Yeah. He's, he's got a trilogy of books there that are actually really good. Yes. A mailing to that. That's kind of cool. Yeah. Yeah. I I'm really enjoying. It is really cool. The way he writes informs the story and stuff. So I'm enjoying that as well. You know something that I never really enjoyed growing up. I'm able to get into because I'm doing a little bit more self exploration. Because unlike I am not always around people not always occupied by other people. And now I can think, okay. What, what does Alex enjoy? So do you like books more, or do you like podcast more for gleaning information? For information definitely podcasts. I'm definitely. Auditory. Learner. However, I don't know if there's an audio book of something I'll listen to that. I'll always listen before I'll read, okay, but I am enjoying reading a little bit more now. Cool. Have you been reading like these trilogy storyline types books, or have you picked up anything else note, usually it's business? And marketing sort of books is kinda my usual Goto that I really enjoy. I have a few that I read every year, just because I, I like the messages that they have in kind of the ideas, it's good to solidify, you know, so you read it a few times, might entrepreneurial professor in law school has had its read how to fly a horse how to fly horse used by I would have pulled up. I think it's, it's Ashton something. It was the glean, the whole point of the book in the first three pages, it was so repetitive. But he seemed to really like it, and he's a business background so how to fly a horse. I'll look it up on telling the second cool. Well, how about those readers in the audience what kind of business books would you recommend, which tops? I love that. This is the first business book I ever read. It's called, however as myself from failure to success in selling it long title. It's by Frank Becher, and it is actually it's pretty short in gives very, concise, ID vice he, he talks about in the beginning of the book how much she hates books and how how he thinks it's kind of a waste of time to just always be reading the same book that says the same thing, you know, by different people write us, he just gives like very clear. You know, this is how you can be successful in selling a few tips. He gives us like find out what your client wants and health get it, right? Another one is hang up your pants, because it helps keep the creases out Jess, please hang up your pants. I don't understand why people fold their pants. Oh, it's, it's, you know, used to fold my pants. And after reading that, both I thought hunt, maybe I should try that. And I just I I like it. I. I think it, it looks so much. Nicer hung. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's way better. And then another one, if you wanna marketing book primal, branding by pack trick Hanlon is really good. And then another one that I enjoy for anything. Whether it's business personal life relationships, anything like that. It's a more beautiful question. And I forget the author's name, but it's a fantastic book talks about combining ideas and creativity and stuff. Awesome. Yeah. You can check those out on how to fly horses written by Kevin Ashton, if Kevin Ashton auto I don't know who he is. Like, what's the book did you finish already? Yeah. We have it read by first class. It was so the premise of the whole thing is about creation, eventually discovery right in this whole notion that our societal tendency to think of innovation in genius as this kind of Allah, Rica moment is totally false. And everybody has a capacity to create, everybody has the capacity enter innovate. You know there's some things that he said that are pretty good. There's some things that he so that was kind of like, okay, probably not. But whatever. In. Yeah. It was very repetitive. Books. I wouldn't recommend it to, like cover to cover sort of deal. People would. Right. So, but if you're like stuck in this rut of I can't seem to motivate myself because I don't think I'm smart enough to achieve something. I want to do you might wanna read the first three chapters and learn. That's not quite how it works you. It's one of those books, you know what I mean? I feel like I gleaned anything new from it. But my phone is loud. I am sorry. I didn't feel anything new from it like for my experience. But I also at my experience weird. So there you go. It can also be good just to help you solidify those ideas into reinforcement crucial to liking yourself much. See I try to circle. So, right. If you understand that you have the capacity to, to do great things, I am also of the belief that anyone has the capacity. Great thing. Some people may have different capacities in different areas. So be everybody has the capacity to do good stuff. So if you don't believe that bringing yourself to believe that is crucial to develop in the self confidence, you need to light yourself, because liking yourself has nothing to do about appreciation, everything into a self confidence. It's knowing when you're right knowing when you're wrong knowing, what to improve knowing what you're good at. That's how I see it and maybe under scenario. Astle but. Being able to say this is what I know I can do and knowing your limits, you know what I mean. The man who knows what he does not knows knows more than men who doesn't right? Yeah. I think I think knowing your limits. And that only comes when you allow yourself to talk to yourself and be honest, you real with yourself. Yes, but not negative, yet you don't like putting yourself down is not healthy. No does anything. But it's super important to tell yourself. You know, hey, maybe work on x wines at right end to, to put effort into those things acknowledgement into those things that you can get started on that path. Yeah. Zack. So while we're on that topic. Like what is an example, that you've had recently that kind of little FIS that it was nurse? I'm all. Let me think. Life. Saint one, one of the biggest ones. Was. Homework. I all my life in, in grade school. I never studied ever, I never tried ever never did my homework and, and then it was coming into university in my first semester, I started trying to do my homework, right? And an I knowledged that. That I was neglecting it, and largely because I was going out in spending time with, with people, which fending time with people on a huge advocate for, but you have to keep your priorities straight, you have to be able to take care of yourself and for me part of that being university was doing my homework. So I do knowledge to myself, that, you know, this is a problem, even though you can spit it in a positive light on spending time with good, people meeting people, making friends, I'm having fun, right? You can spin it in a positive light, but you need. You need to realize that sometimes just because something is good doesn't mean it's the best thing right now. And sometimes that results in while Friday night, I'm gonna be doing a little bit of homework, a little bit of work because for me right now that's the best thing. And, and it was tough for me to aknowledge that end to tell myself like, hey, Alex, you need to stop X wines said and change these behaviors about yourself. And, and then now though for with it, actually. You know, take action. Right. Right. Yeah. And I think something that you're kind of alluding to their you said, you know, do what is good. You want to do what is good. But you really can't, you know, you don't want to. But I think what's really running into as notion of what really as good as what's good in the moment, really what you need to do. Or do you need to expand your viewpoint to see that? No. There's something greater. If you apply yourself now to something else union. Well, that's, that's exactly right. I mean, are you are you working in the moment, or you working for the future? And I, I like to kind of have short short term goals over long-term goals. Right. I like to think what am I doing now? Right. Because -cerned about the present, but you have to at least be aware of the future. Right. If I if I spend this money on this thing now is that going to hurt me later. Right. If I if I buy the fancy car now in making two hundred dollars a month payments, which, I mean, isn't actually, the fanciest car, he can spend way more on guardian started listening car for one nine nine a month in 'em. Is nice carpet was on is right? Yeah. And you know, but I mean I sold a guy a truck once he was paying eight hundred dollars a month for the for this truck that. That's what the payments wound up being and. You, you just think in this guy was twenty years old. He happened to have enough money slash help from his parents that he could do it. And but that, you know, you don't wanna spend every penny you get right? You gotta sink is there something better. I could be doing here and everybody's gonna have different priorities, right? Just just depends. I mean I make stupid decisions. The you know, it's not going to go away, but you can try and raise your awareness of good better best. You know, it's end to do this thing, what's gonna be better than that. And what's going to be the best decision in everything, there's always gonna be stuff like that? Because there are lots of good things you can do. Right. Right. And sometimes, too, like the quote unquote wise or the quote, unquote, good decision, even though you're doing something, you think it's stupid may actually be better for you in the long run to us. Lot needs to go by all the pot you wind milk because. You don't take it to that extreme listener whose, again, thinking that way. But yeah, it's important to realize, too, that sometimes you may look at purchase for example, because those are easy to pick on. You're like do I really need to buy? What I just by today, this bag coffee, you know, it costs two dollars more than this other coffee. Do I really need to spend two dollars AMR? I answer might be. Yes. The answer might for whatever reason because it tastes better. Let's make your morning. That much better every day for two weeks in shirts two dollars really two dollars or you know, I know I struggled a lot when I bought the laptop currently on right now because it was top of the line for what I was looking at, and I'm like, I could buy similar specs compromise. A few things say a couple of hundred dollars and my girlfriend looked at me and went you need to buy the thing that you want once in your life. Yeah. I mean. It can't be stingy. Right. Exactly. An important to like, you know, finding part of liking yourself is planning for the future. Right. The person that I have the person that I like more what I'm dealing myself is not the person kind of jumping back a little bit here is not the person who thinks of the now, the person of the now he tends toward he tends towards them. I'm not a hedonist, but he tends towards hedonist tendencies soft pleasure in the moment, not focusing on the future. Right. Right. Although that's fine. In the moment. It's yeah, it's just not productive in the end of the day where I find that I like more one I'm building on my own foundation for lack of a better term, and that might be helpful for people who are struggling to like themselves is that it may seem counterintuitive to, like yourself, more when you're grinding at work, or doing more homework or reading a little bit more because that stuff is boring. It just is. But when the dividend start paying off in a takes awhile, it may take three months. I may take six months it might take two years, right? It starts paying off you're going to like sophomore ever would have focusing on the moment and practicing hedonistic tendencies. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I think. I think avoiding that hedonism is huge just thinking, you know, just thinking a little bit beyond now's pleasure. Right. Think about tomorrow morning. If tomorrow morning, you've accomplished nothing. Then you're probably doing the wrong thing way. Let's I it can be as simple as you know, if feels better, too. If feels better to go, go to bed in a clean room. Right. Yes. And so, you know, if you take five minutes to clean up your space, right? And, and it's just those little things that you can do now that are maybe a little bit annoyed, but are so much more. They, they add satisfaction at a later date. Right. In, if heels better bed, Nick Lima room. It feels ten times better to wake up in a clean room, if feels even better to not have, you know, when you put the first thing down, it's easier to clean up that room because you're cleaned, it the little things that work on making yourself better, making your environment better. They add up over time and the it like it compounds interest. You wanna mean if you spend a little bit of time, and it makes it easier to live a life in which you can like yourself, more into where you can improve yourself, more into where you can't enjoy, even in the moment activities, whatever that. Means for you. It is just so much easier, and it sounds so counterintuitive, and it probably to it probably is counterintuitive, and that's why people don't do it. But the because you just don't realize it. Right. But at it's you have same compounding effect in the other direction as well. Where if you don't take that five minutes to clean up, and then it builds builds and builds and, you know, before you know it, you're a hoarder right? Obviously, that's like a way, extreme example. But it's you know, it's a real thing in the now affects the president or the now affects future in really. I believe in focusing on the present. But you gotta think about the future too, right? Yes. And again, that means different things for different people. If your version of cleaning room is spending time with your friends to make sure you don't go insane in chemistry class. For example. Yeah, exactly. It's kind of hard thing about these types of topics, we trying to speak to an audience that you have to you have to constantly be hitting home that it's cool personal. What works for me in you might not work for listening. Oh, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I it's just it's so it's so easy to do little things add up. And it sounds weird but take the butterfly effect. Seriously? It sounds dumb. It sounds. Yeah. Incredibly ignorant thing that small things make the differences. But they really do. And, and I, I think even if you figure it out, and it makes sense to you. It's it's hard to put it into action. Yeah. That's true too. Yeah. I, I mean I seen in my life, you make these small choices end. Eventually you get out of the, what seems like a big rut now, you know, down the line. You'll just look back in you'll realize you climbed out of the end on top of that. He climbed the mountain. And the climb was worth it. Yeah. So view man. Well or wrath it up suit. It's eleven o'clock might time on. Oh, you're our behind. Yeah. Coolio while coming on a little bit of a pea brain conversation because I'm a little place. That's okay. Hey, man. Anytime you need a chat. Let me know. It sounds good. And for those I should've I'll introduce you in the Andrew should have introduced to be for those who stick around this long, this has been Alex Williams. He has a couple of mazing podcast. Check out my wax museum my personal favorite from him. It's an amazing podcast. If you wanna plug it, you can talk a little bit more about it, but you should definitely check him out on. He's also on Instagram, Twitter and a couple other things. So there you go. Awesome. Thanks, taylor. And I enjoyed it. Awesome.

Alex Williams professor Tessa Elliott Kevin Ashton UK Crotty Mary WalMart Instagram Randy president Tim Frank Becher Jess Hanlon Rica Andrew Zack
Big Blue Big Board: Setting the 2019 EDGE

Big Blue View

38:43 min | 2 years ago

Big Blue Big Board: Setting the 2019 EDGE

"Uh-huh. Hello. And welcome to the big blue big board podcast. I am Dan Zuhdi, join tear by Chris flow. And we are here again to break down some of what is coming up in college football. What is coming up in the draft? So we are now coming to you after a giants win the giants. Now two wins on the season and that actually significantly alters their draft order right now they were in line for the first pick. It does not look like they're going to get there. Because of the amount of bad teams in front of them per ESPN's football power index the giants right now project for the fifth overall pick with the three percent chance at the top pick and a thirty nine percent chance of top five pick. Meanwhile, football outsiders has them with a three point eight percent chance at the top pick and forty two point seven percent chance at a top five. Dick. So that's our weekly update of where the giants trap status is right now. And we'll be going into what the giants might be looking at last week. We took a look at some of the top offensive linemen and this week. We are going to be looking at some of the top edge players. So you ready break into some of the pass rushers here, Chris. Oh, yeah. I'm always ready to talk craft people know that I think with this place. We should probably start is defining. What an edge is. It's not exactly a new position. But it is somewhat somewhat of a Newt Perm used to be ten years ago. These players were generally called Twitter's the guys who are not quite big enough to be a fulltime defensive end a classic Justin tuck four three defensive end. But also just a little bit too. Big to be a fulltime outside linebacker in the modern F L. Well, now, the at least the way I look at it. With defense is getting more multiple the distinctions have really gone away out there. And they're kind of the same player is guys who are athletic enough to play on standing up, but they can also put their hand in the dirt and go forward there really is no Twitter anymore at least four I think. Smart NFL teams smart NFL teams. Do not believe Twitter is either. A thing that exists or or a bad term. You can find guys who can do this. So for me, edges. Just someone who is a primary job is rushing the passer, whether that's four three defensive end or a three four outside linebacker with how much defensive shift. Now, the difference between those physicians is basically non-existent, it's whether you're standing up at this nap, or if you have a hand in the responsibilities of that position are almost exactly the same. So so it's not even worth breaking guys into four three defensive and or three four outside linebacker anymore. They're doing the same thing. And that's just it's an edge rusher. In today's game. You see that now with the giants right now, we there was so much commotion about how James Becher is runs a three four base. But the giants barely run Abass. They. Have guys who are the address and the guys who are the interior defenders those of you BJ hills and doubted Tomlinson's the other guys like rental Carter Olivier Vernon those are the edgy is. Those are the guys who are going to be rushing the passer. It doesn't really matter where or how they're doing it. They're just the guys who are rushing the pastors, and that's what edges so those are the guys were going to be looking at today. Yeah. Exactly. And one way to know how the terminology in things have changed ten years ago. The giant giants drafted Clinton. He was basically the best pass rusher in college football and their defensive coordinators didn't have any idea what to do with him because he wasn't six six and to seventy now he would be an edge. He'd be an outside linebacker on someplace he'd be defensive end on someplace he would be playing the same position going forward and into the backfield. That's a I think thing even is someone who who has considered f. Position for while. I kinda got roped into this. If you looked at like someone like Joey Bosa who was defensive end at Ohio State. I thought the fit might be kind of weird where he went to when he went to the chargers, and they like to stand up guys more and that just turned out to not be an issue. If you're good at rushing the passer, you're going to be good at rushing the passer from wherever you are rushing the passer from so scheme fit is not a ways that big of a deal when we're talking about these types of guys. And so when we're talking about Joey I think if we want to get into the top edge guys in this year's raft. There's me will where to start, and that's his brother Nick Boza yet. Definitely. I mean, he's not playing football right now, he withdrew from Ohio State after suffering. A core muscle injury. That would probably have nixed. His. Even so he withdrew from school, and he's just concentrating on getting ready for the graft. But he basically is his brother Joey who is one hell of an edge rusher. Six three to seventy he complained from two point Santa complaint from three point SAM's. We weren't been over that we were exhausted that in the last five minutes, really good hands real good technique really explosive in short area. Personally. I think he might be a little bit more flexible than Joey, but they're really gonna win with technique and short area quickness. And again, he's like he's a very Vance 't brusher from his mental side of things. He's always got a plan. He always has an idea of how he's going to beat the guy in front of him. And what the play the offense of plays going to look like, so yes, definitely edge one. And I don't care if he's not playing half the season. He's going to be a top-five fick. Yeah. There was a lot that went on when he decided he was going to pull out of school and focus on the NFL draft that to me is something that makes sense for someone who is going to declare early for the NFL draft. Anyway, make sure he's healthy. Make sure he's not reentering himself if he's trying to rush back and help state. I'm totally fine with him pulling out. But even in the games he just played this season. He was only in three games and he had six tackles for loss. Four sacks six run stuffs and force bubble. He was just a absolutely monster. And that's definitely something that's going to translate to x level, absolutely. And that happens to be a skill set. The giants could use you know, what their ten sacks through nine games. Yeah. Edge is definitely a place where the giants are going to be looking. They have Lorenzo Carter who probably is going to see some more time. They have alleviated Vernon bo-. We don't exactly know what his future is going to look like the giants are able to get out of that contract if they wanted to but he still on the roster now, so we'll see going forward. And also, you can never have too many Edreshev. There's even if you have some good guys you can still take one earlier in the in the second or third round. You can never have too many addresses, and you can shuffle those guys in you can have a good rotation. So everyone's always healthy, and everyone is always rested. And that makes it more dangerous. Look at what the Philadelphia Eagles did a more last season some injuries of struck this season. On that defensive line. They won the Super Bowl by having like go in six deep at the edge. And Dow was just incredible way to always make yours. Someone was at a hundred percent going at the passer. Yeah. That's something. The giants have done when they won the Super Bowls. They you just send waves of pass rushers because those guys do get tired. They shouldn't be playing eighty ninety percent of the snaps at least not if you want them to be fresh and affective at the end of the game. No, that's definitely the case. So I think Nick is probably anywhere. You work going to be the edge one on pretty much any list heading into the draft. But I think after him it's kind of preference. I think and you're going to see some different people prefer different types of guys. Depending on what a team is looking for what a team does prefer at that position. And some of the bills and some of the athletic traits or the technique. Uh? So the next couple of guys we are going to briefly discuss they can be anywhere from someone's edge to to maybe someone's edge eight and they can be the same player, and someone could just have a different view of them. Yeah. Maybe the biggest one we could talk about there is Josh Allen. And I I mean the good Josh Allen not the quarterback. Josh Allen the linebacker for Kentucky. He's a guy. He's six four about two thirty. He was only two star recruit. But he's turned into one of the best linebackers in the country. He's a guy a lot of teams will look at and say, yeah, he's going to be an a highly ranked edge for us. The other teams once that play more like a four three over defense who user linebackers more in space or as occasional Blitzer? They might look at them and say, you're going to be a highly rated outside linebacker for us and not a d. Offensive end. Yeah, that's true. And if you think of maybe maybe he's somewhere around if you think of maybe the role if we stick with James better of what the cardinals did with his son Radic couple years ago when they drafted him in the first round he was someone who could play all over. He was defensive end his last year at temple, and they kind of moved him to to more the linebacker type thing, but he still rushed the passenger on about at least fifty percent of its net. So we could use that there. But yeah, I think Alan is going to be interesting. He's someone I right now really like off the edge. And depending on where he comes in weight wise, there's some places that Wissam at two thirty. There's some that have wisened him as high as two sixty. So I think he has tried to put on weight if he is someone who can keep the current athleticism. He has right now and can be up at around two sixty that. Is a dangerous guy. So I think we'll talk about these guys on the edge. This is going to be a position where I think athleticism of really matters. So actually a lot of my views of how good some of these guys are going to be are going to be fully formed until we get to the combine. And we see the testing numbers on these guys because I think how you can tell the upside of these guys really how they test and think edge is going to be is one of the most important positions to see that Applegate testing and see where these guys can be an Allen is someone who can potentially test. Really, well, someone who could probably have a really high speed score of this group and speed score is basically a weight adjusted forty and that's kind of been shown to when you look get events that correlate for for Ed. Rutgers, a weight and forty are two of the biggest one so having a Wayne adjusted. Forty is kind of important. That's something. I'm definitely going to see from alad wants the combine comes around. But if he's someone who can be in that maybe two fifty to sixty range still hold his athleticism, and he's been incredibly dominant this season already fifteen and a half tackles for he has eleven sacks eighteen run. Stuff's is five force fumbles and he has four pass breakups. And that's actually an important thing to football outsiders does their sack sear, which is basically there edge rush projection. One of the things they do look at is is whether these guys can defend deflect passes and Allen's got four of those. So having not exactly ball skills. But just the ability to get into some passing lanes. If you're not getting to quarterback is the skill. And Josh Allen has that he's someone. I'm actually I really like he would probably be my edge two right now behind Botha. Yeah. If he can have. Have that if you can hold that size? And it doesn't even have to be to sixty to forty five or two fifty would probably be plenty for him. He would be very strong consideration as an edge to especially for the giants who could use him. Basically. It's a rich man's version of Lorenzo Carter where spent most of his time going downhill and after the quarterback, but he does have the wheels to drop into coverage on occasion and help play some games along the offense of line and create confusion rule. The more tools. You have the better. Yeah. Absolutely. And I can just say it feels so weird to be really excited to be talking about a Josh Allen the going into the draft because that was not the case for me last year, though. No and two slash three. After that. I think it really starts to get murky and individual. Yes. So okay. Let's let's move onto the next guy in the next guy. We have on our list is clear. Ferrell from Clemson part of that crazy Clemson a- defensive line right now. Oh, yeah. Barrels the guy who he looks like you're just your classic edge toll long, he at the size to be defensive end. But he's got the athleticism and flexibility to play in a two point stance. And kind of do a little bit of everything got good hands. He can use that length. Well, you know, he he keeps himself clean and you don't see offense of tackles really lock into him. All that often, which is athleticism is a huge part playing edge. That's why you see the best guys are except for Danial hunter, the best guys are always drafted highly. Because that's there's an epileptic premium on the physician, but hand usage is also one of those things that maybe take some some guys little longer to learn. But also really important just as Michael Strahan. Justin, talk, Farrell's, gut. A pretty wide variety of moves already. And he's also a pretty good run defender already which again that Clemson defensive line is just ridiculous. They've got to defensive tackles who could both wind up going. If not in the first round before the second round has halfway done. They'll have three guys drafted the one run flag autumn is he had a C L tear back in high school. But he's started three seasons in college sense, then so that's not a very bright red flag outside right to stand out on a defensive line. Like that is pretty impressive. I think if we look at someone like BJ hill who was kind of overshadowed by some of the other guys on that NC state defensive line last year as so BJ hill kind of fell of but still incredible football player. So for feral to stand out on a defensive line that is so good this year as. Eighteen and a half tackles for loss. Eight and a half sacks fifteen and a half run. Stuff's two pass breakups in to force fumbles. So those are excellent numbers to and yet. He he's probably you're more prototypical defensive end. But he's a guy who has just been able to get it done been one of the most productive defensive lineman in college football this year. Yeah. And now granted having defensive tackles Christian Wilkins and Dexter Lawrence helps. Makes it really tough for offenses too key on him and slide protection, or you know, dedicated double team to him. But he is still really good. Yeah. Absolutely. And I mean, that's you still have to be very good to take advantage of that. I think if you see you like somewhere like the Rams they have Aaron Donald and consume completely destroying the interior. But still don't have the guys, and you would think that type of that type of mentality that the edges would open up. They don't totally have the players to take advantage of that. Although I like Samson boom who's been pretty good this year. And they just traded for Dante hour, so you do still have to be really good to to take advantage of that. So that that's where feral is. And he's been able to definitely take advantage of the opportunities. He's gotten, but we can move on now to another guy in the ACC that is. Going to be a Brian. Burns of Florida state. Yeah, he's another long guy. Six five he isn't as thick as feral as though I've only seen him listed to thirty. We'll see what he act has come the combine you can't put a whole lot of weight and school measurements. They occasionally stretched the truth. I suppose we could say, but he does move like a guy who has that long lean built kinda Leonard Floyd or Lorenzo Carter. He's really fluid mover. And he already uses a variety moves to be blockers, which is good to see. But he also doesn't have the strength you'd expect from a bigger guy which could hurt him as an edge. Because those guys do have to be able to set Nej in the run game. The pass rush is definitely more important teams generally don't draft run defenders highly. But it's still something they need to be able to do. Yeah. Abso. -olutely? And if you have the pass rush end, you can be a plus run-defender that that is the case that I think that is right now for burns. He's for what he's done this season. He has nine sacks in fourteen and a half run stuff's. So he hasn't been able to play the run pretty well. And that's also with twelve and a half tackles for loss. So he has been able to make plays in the backfield. A which is something you definitely want to see production is definitely a key. And something that translates at edge possibly college production. They're about as much or more than I think, maybe any other position you wanna see that type of production in college off the edge. Yeah. And with burns, if maybe the kind of guy where if you can't if you can't just stack and shed the blocker just run pass and make the tackle in the backfield that probably easier anyway, you talked about how. How he has some moves and and can use his hands a little bit. And that's that's another thing. If you're watching these guys when you have any type of college player who has advanced hand movement. That's something you write down and check because a lot of these guys who are athletes and can potentially be good at the next level. Sometimes that hand placement. And hand us is the last thing that really develops. So if you have a guy in college who can do that that someone who already has a step on some of these other guys? Yeah. And for some of these guys who are they have always been just a freak athlete and the most athletic die in the field. They don't develop hands because they don't have to they can just run right past a block or whether you can their kick slide or just hit them and out athlete than like today. Cloudy used to do it, South Carolina. His hands weren't great coming out. But he was just a. Just such an explosive athlete. It didn't matter. Now, he's had to develop them not having handy's. It's not something that should disqualify anyone either. You'll get markets Davenport last year super athletic had crazy production Welby it in in a smaller school, not someone who was completely refined in pass rush. Moves a when he was on the field that before he got hurt. He was able to definitely make an impact uh. So that's something that doesn't disqualify people. But if they do have that hand usage that can put them I step above. So someone who I think maybe might need to work on that a little bit is a montage sweat of Mississippi State. Yeah, he's another one of those longer, leaner, guys. He's listed at six four to forty looking on. I suppose that's about right? Interestingly he's really explosive out of a three point stance eats covers a lot of. Ground off the snap with his hand in the dirt less so out of a two point stance. At least from what I've seen. I don't know if that's just a repetition. He hasn't done it enough or hasn't gotten great coaching on that. I don't know. But it is something to note. He is a tough guy. He's he competes heart at the line of scrimmage and he plays stronger than you'd expect looking at him. But as a pass rusher, he's got the tools they need to be refined. Yes. So this season Nanan half sacks twelve tackles for loss, sixteen run stuff. So he's he's making plays in the backfield to only one force fumble. And forcing fumbles is a skill recovering. Fumbles is not adjust do throw that out. There forcing fumbles a scale recovering fumbles is completely random. So a seeing a guy who can force fumbles is nice. And there there's some of those guys like we said in Josh Allen. Who has been able to force humbles at a high rate sweat only has one. But yeah, he he has played well, and he has been productive. He is someone where you are going to want to see the athleticism numbers to see if the testing does show a good athlete because if it doesn't and he's someone who doesn't quite have that technique. That's something that might not a complete red flag. But might be something that forces you to to hit the brakes a little bit on the upside of what kind of prospect he could be. Yeah. He is guy might expect to have a better ten yard split than forty yard dash which ten yards flit tends to correlate better to their first step because if you can get a really good tenured splitter, really good broad jump that tends to point towards more lower body explosiveness which translates to really good first step at least, assuming time the snap at all some guys. Just can't. But then sometimes you have a good. I a good ten yards Flint, a bad forty and those are kind of two different things. I do like the forty as scale and the jumps. I think the jumps kinda show Expos of miss the vertical and abroad are things that you really like. And then of course, the three co in which which show some bend a little bit. And I think those been shown to be the both highly correlated before edged rushers and a guy who could possibly be one of those pretty good athletes who will test pretty well. They're at of Florida is Josh polite. Yeah, he might be the speed rusher in this class, build wise. He kind of reminds me a little bit of human euro. I think he's only listed at six to in about two sixty man as he quick off the snap. He is a just a great athlete. You can explode off the ball. He's got the agility just go right around. Tackles, and he can do it outside Russia's or inside moves. But the problem with him. I think and he hasn't been terribly consistent player for Florida. He it seems as though he kinda disappears at times. And that might be a thing that will improve as technique improves. Yes. I think that's one thing you look at when especially even when you look at his numbers right now, they're not as high as some of these other guys we've talked about only eleven and a half tackles for loss. Among the guys we've brought up so far that's the fewest outside of Nick Bosa whose only played three games. And. Wouldn't surprise me. If both did have more at so that's that's the lowest in that group the seven and a half sacks also the lowest, but he he's making impact please. When he does. So we still has four pass breakups when we Josh Allen has as many of the group we've talked about and he has four four sparkles. I and only Josh Allen has borne he had five. So he is a guy who can make these huge splash plays when he is making the place, but you just do want to see a widow board consistency out of him. And I think that's going to be the thing that really shapes where he's drafted and how high is upside can be that kind of has look of more of a day to pick agai you say, hey, we like some of the things you can do. But we we need to work with you some before you're ready and along those same lines is the Andre Walker from Georgia. I'm still looking at tape on him. He was only a part time player in twenty seventeen. But he's kind of averaged ties again listed at six two to forty but he is a tough, dude. He's guys he always plays hard. He always hustles and he's got enough f- lettuces in flexibility. I think to play on the edge and be a reasonably consistent pass rusher at the next level. But he also needs refinement in tech in his technique. And just learn how to use his tools will be interested to see his measurements come to. Combine. It looks like he might have oddly long arms for a guy who six foot two and arm lengths something we haven't talked about. That's another thing that is generally important for a dresser. Just because you wanna be able to get your hands on an offensive tackle before. They can get their hands on you. That's why arm length is important for tackles. Well, sort of important it's not as important as other things. But that's also why they tend to draft taller tackles just with the idea that whoever gets their hand on the other one I generally wins and some of that can cancel out with athleticism. If you're quick enough to get in there. You don't necessarily have to have the log as orange, but yeah, that is something people are going to look at Walker is a walkers going to be interesting a just kind of because of that Georgia scheme. They like to play guys at more linebacker with with mixed responsibilities. And they're not aways edge rushers. And that is that was one of the issues with Lorenzo quarter. Lorenzo Carter was not really an edge rusher at Georgia. So he finished his Georgia career and this'll Renzo Carter with twenty one and a half tackles. For loss and fourteen sacks in four years. So we're we're talking about guys like we just saw Josh Allen. Josh Allen has fifteen and a half tackles for loss and eleven sacks this year. The Walker is similar guy. He's only played. No he did play in fourteen games last year. He's played in nine this year. But for his career right now through four years twenty four tackles for loss and only eleven sacks. So if he's the guy you're trying to project as a pass rusher that's going to be a different role than he played at Georgia. And it's very similar to what we saw with Lorenzo Carter last year. Yeah. The Georgia scheme they asked their guys who would be players to wear a lot of hats. That was something you had to reckon with with Leonard Floyd when he came out a few years ago because same position some snaps their extra play defensive end, some snow. Apps that are s to play linebacker and space sometimes with like carbon Floyd they're almost playing like a slot corner role. And personally, I think doing that it can hold the players development back rather than just letting them concentrate on one thing, they're probably going to be best at that depends on the scheme. They're going to be brought into in the NFL if it's someone who you can just see it. I'm going to bring up two guys who just did. And I'm going to keep it with James better. You have this on Rettig who was a dynamic edge rusher in had the ability to get in the backfield. They kind of brought him along in made him more of an outside linebacker with mixed responsibilities. But then you have someone like rental Carter who the giants brought in this year in what's technically supposed to be the same scheme of. But they want him to focus on being more in edge rusher. And I think Rettig was able to. To use his athleticism to move back from being in Edgewater and have those other responsibilities quicker and more easily that quarter was able to take what he did at Georgia and move up as a fulltime edge rusher. We still see there's development he needs to not be blocked at a plays and make an impact on a more consistent basis. So when you see a guy like who is playing the type of role that Walker is that is also really going to depend on. Oh who takes him what kind of coaching? He's going to get in what kind of scheme they want to put him in. And I think we can probably say that for a lot of these guys of but before guys like Walker, especially how the team plans to use him is going to be a big part of what kind of impact he can have in the NFL. Definitely I could see a team looking at him. Maybe like a t in the plays a four three under and looking at him as. A Sam linebacker almost like how the giants used to use Devon Canard, and, you know, have up close to the line of scrimmage in generally going downhill, but not technically edged right? Yeah. That that makes sense in. We'll see we're still very far away from. Yes. From figuring that out completely. But it's something that's worth mentioning as we go through these names. So that is the last guy were kind of going to go over in depth at edge. There are a lot of guys. So there's probably maybe some guys we haven't brought up on this show that are going to be higher up on some people's listen and be still only the middle of dove members. So we'll have plenty of time to talk about those guys. But you know, you have Anthony Nelson from Iowa chase of window from Michigan Zack Allen from Boston College smo- school guide. Jalen, Ferguson who weeds who use college football in San. Tax right now with twelve and a half. He's a guy who might be interested might not be one of the top guys. But can be interesting. So there there are some names we didn't touch on here. Just because we're trying to go with brief overview of these things of but are going to be names that pop up later, especially at edge aware teams are going to be trying to get a lot of them. I don't I don't think if you're I don't think there's any team set at edge. You can always add bore like look the we talked about the eagles. They won the Super Bowl the with the deepest defensive end rotation and then went out and drafted Josh wet. So there's you can always continue to build the edge. And I think that's what a lot of teams are going to do. So like we did last week. We're going to end this show with some a game recommendations to watch this week. I is not a great. Week in college football. I really don't believe not an overall great slate. So Chris do you have a recommendation to watch this weekend? Yeah. It really is lean pickings this week. You know, normally say, you know, watch Alabama well hell bama's playing citadel, and that's not going to be much of a game. I don't think all due respect to sit it out. But yeah, I don't think you're anyone in that. So I'm gonna be watching do persist Clemson because number one that Clemson defensive line. It's they're they're always fun to watch. And I just. Clemson's defensive scheme. And also we had the report milk, hyper Bohmte do quarterback Daniel Jones up into eighteenth on his big board. Jones did have a really good game against North Carolina. And it will be interesting to see him against one of the best defences around. Yeah. So why talked about last week? I do like seeing these quarterback prospects against good defenses. Clemson number six in pass defense per SSD. Plus, which again is the college football, advanced efficiency, metric, going to be honest. I I just I don't see it with Jones right now. A he is not going to be someone. I like from what I've seen and the numbers I've dug into so far and even after that North Carolina game his numbers are still not good, and well below all these other guys that are potentially going to be in the traffic last. But I'm still going to be interested to see how he does against Clemson. But right now, I think I'm going to be out on him. But I know he he's going to be someone that's probably going to be talked up. So for my recommendation is going to be going on at about the same time. There's really not good games until the nightime toured. Some people are going to be interested in Notre Dame Syracuse which goes on to thirty. But if that's not a Notre Dame blowout, I will be very surprised personally. I'm going to be exciting to watch temple south, Florida at noon, just because I went to there's the kind of a good team and they've turned into some offense of juggernaut over like the past two games. And also have one of the best defences in college football right now. So that'll be fun at least for me to watch. But I'm going to stick with my AA see pride here and UCF Cincinnati at eight PM on ABC. A college game day is going to UCF. This is to top twenty five teams UCF undefeated, McKenzie Milton is sue. For fun. He's someone if he enters the draft is someone I'm going to be so much higher on than everyone else. I think a very good at quarterback. I think he would be very exciting to watch and Cincinnati is number twelve in past defense s and p plus a so that is going to be quite the test. And that is the big ABC prime time game. So that will definitely be something. You guys should be watching. You can flip in the do. Clemson game is probably going to be fun for maybe a quarter. You can see whether Duke is going to hang in there or not and probably by that time that starts started seven. I am probably by the time. UCF Cincinnati starts at eight. You know, how do Clemson game is going to finish? Yeah. Definitely. So those are recommendations are that they're short. But this week is is not as fun and doesn't even have really as many intriguing draft matchups as there was last week. So we are going to end it there. A thank you guys. For listening. You can subscribe to this podcast everywhere. You find your podcast, please rate and review, the pres check everything out we do on big blue view dot com. You can also follow us on Twitter. I am at damp Zuta, Chris at raptor. Chris is at raptor, M K. I and he would follow our work. There will be writing a whole bunch more about the giants whole bunch more about the draft. As that goes forward would big blue view on Twitter that simply at big blue view of fo- big review on Instagram. I've been doing some QNA's the Instagram's stories lately and that is big underscore. Blu underscore view on Instagram. We will be back on Monday breaking down the giant's game against Tampa Bay. So thank you for listening. And we will talk to you again soon. Everybody to at and chief of the verge. I host podcast every week called the verge cast, my friends, Paul Miller debone, we've got a rotating cast of characters from our entire site, which is about technology how it impacts culture, and how that is all a big cycle. The causes us to have a wide variety of feelings that you can listen to every Friday we've done over three hundred up associates and six years since avert has been around, but you'll need to listen to one the latest one to get caught up on everything in tech. News virtue is on apple podcasts. Spotify ever also podcast. Check it out.

giants football Josh Allen Lorenzo Carter Clemson NFL Chris flow Twitter James Becher Florida Georgia Andre Walker Allen Justin tuck Joey Bosa Leonard Floyd
#231 Writing is designing with Michael Metts and Andy Welfie

UX Podcast

37:13 min | 1 year ago

#231 Writing is designing with Michael Metts and Andy Welfie

"A big thank you to all our transcript to volunteers. It's really helping us. We've provided a transcript. Now we've new shows every single time since last summer so if you want to help to just email us at podcast at us. Podcasts DOT COM you X. podcast episode two hundred thirty one. You're listening to a podcast coming to you from Stockholm Sweden helping the US community explore ideas and share knowledge. Since two thousand eleven we are. Your hosts Paddock's boom gems Roy Lawson with listeners. In one hundred ninety two countries from Iraq to Austria so under wealthy and Michael Metz of Justin writing is designing a book about words on the experience and how to avoid them being just an afterthought Andy's been working ass content strategist for around a decade including at facebook and is currently content strategy manager at Adobe in San Francisco. Michael is a writer and US designer. Who currently heads the compensation design practice chat bots allstate in Chicago and now to see where we can put some words together in a designed fashion to make an interview? I'm going to start out. Staff have been a bit cheeky. Also I was thinking about. The writing is designing designing with words. I imagined instead of like my bunch of Whiteboard pens and and and sketching tools and everything that instead we could start designing with using Herod's so I WANNA website. That's that's three syllables. The first syllable is like in award for fish. What do I get it now? He's kind of the essence of the book. They're spending a lot of good good work done with mad libs in the past which is similar you know. Give me an adjective here for ECOMMERCE. What do you want you ECOMMERCE to look like? You did have sort of like a mad Lib and the in the strategy chapter. We'll you made the pitch of what to do. I think yeah that one came from originally came from Sarah Wachter Becher. Who wrote our forward and I'll see. She started teaching that and workshops and that's just a neat way to help people think about their strategy as a written thing without feeling like They really have to be expert writer so you can give them the template to fill in for the strategy statement and it helps people have a really good conversation about it. What I'm taking away when I'm looking through the book and reading the chapters is I'm realizing so here's another book about writing and I'm I'm getting the sense that we sort of have to motivate why writers are important all the time and is that true. I wish it weren't Irish and I don't know if writers are important but writing is important. I mean all the the role discussion makes this really complex. Because some people do writing fulltime. That's their job day after day But every team is creating written interface that that goes out into the world every software development team product development team. They're they're creating something that includes written language their cases out there somewhere but I think even if you have the VR experience that is almost entirely visual. You still have little labels and things that help you understand how to use it so we hope that people start to think of the writing as early important and naturally writers are really good at writing so having them around is really helpful for that but I think what we want people to focus on is the writing itself and I think when reason why we don't well we often don't You know focus on the roles. Is that I mean just like the book title says we really want people to kind of apply design methodology to the words. Which often don't happen. It's usually like a floor specific elements or you know just kind of like the the behavior of the site but You know if you're iterative and you're testing the words and you know you're researching terminology and looking at the overall system rather than just like you know popping the words in there the last minute which happens a lot. You know that that's kind of what we're what we're really trying to drive home with the title and throughout the book I mean something I mean when we talked about writing over the years. It's one of those things People say content. I is something we hear how it used to be mobile first concert. I but one thing that I got came across when looking at the book the book is that exactly that design words or the writing is not is not just something you need to do first or last or anything. It's actually. The entire design process hangs hangs around all the words. Yeah we're trying to be a little you know counterculture. Everyone WANTS TO BE I. Maybe that's not so important. You know like Actually just being involved all time is what's important and being intentional about what you're doing is really important so naturally like I think the the reason the content first idea came around is that You know people weren't including writers as much as they maybe could have our including content strategists. I know sometimes that that phrase is used when you think of a website content strategy where the design team creates all these templates without ever thinking about. What's going to go in them right so I think it's just a matter of being included in partnering and what we what do they want to give. Writers the language and techniques they can use to partner with their teams and be a really valuable part of those teams. Because you even do have a chapter on inviting yourself to meetings and being part of all that because you're not always invited and people tend to not think of you tend to think of you someone you add on at the end whereas many of the arguments in the book which which I love the are about. The writing is the design. If we start with the writing will know better how to design the interface. Definitely I I know you know at my place where I work. There's a lot of New just high level discussions and strategy. That happens before you know. Even wire frames start to start to come together. And they're like Oh we don't need. We don't need writers in here. This is just this is just a strategy discussion and I often will say well. What are discussions made out of? They're made out of words and you know we're going to be talking about nouns. Verbs that are going to happen within this this interface even before drawing comes together so that's kind of the best place for for us to be and sometimes that works sometimes. It doesn't because there's always also this point you're making that sometimes the words aren't the problem when you come in later on and as your task with police add some words this interface and you start questioning. Even what does this interface do and listen? I can't motivate myself to write something for this but I don't even understand what it's doing. Yeah absolutely yeah I I hope that if p people come away with one thing especially those who are new to the field they come away with a higher comfort level of asking questions and doing discovery work because I think writers tend to get pushed out of that piece of U. X. They tend to be like you said they. They get US task. Sometimes that's even spreadshee- right like a spreadsheet with fifty scenarios we need. We need messages for all these scenarios. And we what we hope people see that it's more valuable. Your impact can be so much greater. If you don't just do what you're told in that scenario and right those fifty messages that you've been asked to write if you actually start a conversation with your team and get more involved in the vision and what people are trying to accomplish with the product you actually become more effective. Everyone becomes more efficient So I think it's kind of a misconception that asking those questions doing that discovery work takes more time. It takes more time not to do it. And it's more costly for your users in the end. Yeah I come across quite regularly because I'm because of an English native English speaker but but work in Sweden and a lot of the time. I work with Swedish projects. It's not unusual that I'll get. The question is well now. What what should what should it be on that? Burn in English. You know I can say well I can tell you what I think it would be. I can give you my opinion about it but I can't. I can't tell you what it should be because we haven't done that kind of research so so in some ways it gives me the opportunity to come in and say yes. This is me speaking but you run the risk of getting a like an English educated in the seventies eighties in Great Britain. That's going to be your tone of voice for your interface. If you want that fair enough. Yeah absolutely and we give people some. I would say lightweight research they can do one of the best examples comes from of dot UK. Actually there's a link to the blog post and maybe we can even share it over for the show notes. But they have. They have this technique called the highlighter method where they actually just take content and print it out and I think people can do this with interfaces to more than they think like actual products with a lot of moving parts and you just take the content and remove it from the interface give people different color. Highlighter says the way they do it so they do green and red highlighter. And so in their case I think what they do is use green for things that are really helping you read for things. That aren't helping you very much. And then those are just naturally kickoff points for discussion around why those things may not help you. But the the same sort of lightweight method could be used on a lot of product teams. But people don't tend to think of the the language people interacting with as a user interface element they're usually thinking More more visually than that and it makes a difference to the from target audience. Talk audience you can have one one one group of people who Maybe they They use their familiar with terminology because of their by ground whereas in the group for the same product or Sam website would would not understand that language at all for sure. I think it really helps you. See kind of like a bigger picture and patterns within it And of course you know it just gets you peeking peeking into corners. That you don't you know wouldn't otherwise peek into right like like. Oh I didn't even. I didn't even think about this message or I didn't even realize that this was jargon terminology that I wasn't seeing before we've done that a couple of times where I am and yeah it's it always reveals something. I mean you mentioned a number of times throughout the book. You mentioned the importance of context. The air messages inclusiveness. I think even the strategy aspect you talking about it. And that's we think we're familiar with context. When we think of situations people will be using it but my spontaneous feeling is that maybe we aren't as good. If we're thinking about language context I think I think terminology has a lot to do with that like I. I work on. I work on a lot of complicated design software and adobe and You know we. We usually say that you know jargon or technical jargon isn't always a bad thing we just need to really reduce the number of it and make sure that we're giving proper context in this case introducing it slowly and making sure that you know. We're we're disclosing it when a user needs it So for sure yeah. That's that's something. I'm thinking a lot about. Just wearing the user journey. Are we putting up like on boarding messaging or really educating users? How to use this thing? That's that's a similar idea to. I don't know if you both have read a bad ass by Kathy era but it's the idea of making users awesome that she talks about like sometimes that that is the ideal approach where you help people understand those things. I'm you help them. Level up their own skills and help them get more involved. Of course you actually include them in in making the content and that's what I look when looking at this book and looking through it. What I really like is that it's applying design thinking to just copywriting and it's going through the strategy user interviews and testing and experimenting and there are some things that really moments for me like Experimenting with tone. Because that's something I haven't come across because usually it's the case that you're told that this is what the website should convey and then there's a black and white Right or wrong answers to how you should do that. But experimenting with tone the way I interpret it is then that you would actually try and write things in different tones and see what works and test that Could you walk us through? That would work. Yeah I think that especially if you if you do a lot of work on developing a series of tones that you WanNa test you know it's something that like. I mean does a lot of work. Because you can't just apply it toward one kind of message in isolation. Even though I guess in the book I did use one message in isolation I didn't have time to do a whole. You know anyhow you can really apply you can really see. I think straight off you can see tones. That are kind of extreme. And don't work like you don't want to apply really celebrat- celebratory tone to You know password reset button or password reset message or something like that but you can't play around and test out a system. That would maybe take on a more proactive or a more sympathetic or something. That's just very very neutral and straightforward and kind of see what works the best I think that a lot of the time you know something that is neutral in something. That's not taking taking a lot of like cognitive space. In a user's mind is GONNA come out best but there are definitely like kind of like high risk high touch areas. Where you might. It might surprise you. How much care and empathy you. You need to give in order to just really get it through a user's mind to really get them to kind of complete workflow so That is definitely one of the most. I don't know what to say editorial parts of. Us writers Job is just really making sure you're hitting the tone that's appropriate for the user and and like you said there's no there's no right or wrong answer for that it could be. It could be a series of things it could be kind of a blending of two tones. It could be something you know. Something in the middle thing really helps that. Sorry sorry I mean how does that. Then feed into brand voice and product voice as you mentioned both those different aspects as well in the book Definitely a tone should should not really so I guess one thing. I should set some context here. Is You know voice tone. While they're very interrelated are definitely different. Things I think a lot of people conflict those right like a a tone is people talk about tone of voice and we're treating them differently here like I. I am Andy. I always have the same personality in the same set of values and the same interests in the same the same broad context so that is my that is my product voice product voice of Andy Wilfley whereas my tone here on the podcast. I'm talking in a certain way. I'm talking about different things. I'm trying to set context. I am talking very long form. Whereas if it's you know just me and my sister or me and my college roommate or me and my cat. I might take on a different tone. You know speaking to different way. Am I talk about different things? Just for demonstration purposes. Could you explain tone to your cat? I'll see what I can do. Yes Sir Yeah. Trying to get that interface to get the user's attention. It's the cat tone so anyhow a so you always wanna keep very consistent voice whether that's your brand voice your product voice but you do want to kind of vary your tone based on context and that's usually kind of how I describe it right like there's a continuum or spectrum of of tone in which you know in a invoice continuum where lives right years back then mail chimp was always the go to example of how the right tone of voice on your website and this is. This is how you should do it. And it all sounded so strange to me because that's how they that it's not how to do it. It's that's one choice and it also I know. They received some criticism and in the end. They actually had a button in the settings where you could switch it off switch fund. Just if you don't if you don't like it just put a put a toggle on it. Yeah I I definitely like wanted. We wanted to provide a framework. That was Kinda like you know. A A really really in depth system of tone isn't maybe best for small directive piece of software. But like if it's something where you know you're just you're just using this interface to reorder batteries or something. It's probably that you're not thinking about like celebratory or sympathetic tones. But if you are a Well I should let Michael Streak to this. Maybe but if you're like an insurance product or something you WanNa make sure you're being very very careful about what the users thinking. What context during and not saying like congratulations? You just bought you. Just you just cashed out your life insurance and the user might be going through something really traumatic off at that point so yeah yeah I mean I. It isn't even that obviously lead at times. Either one example that I recently ran across was I work on. Conversation Design Teams. That are building automated. Chat systems for customer support and One of the people I was working with in it was a really well intentioned comment but their their idea was Maybe we should end each chat with like have a great day as a sign off. But what what the reason I push back on. That was because we have no idea what people are going through. When they're chatting with us so they could be the could have just lost their house. They could have just been in a car accident. Someone in their family could have just passed away. All of those things could be happening and when we sign off even though it's cheerful for us the technology isn't smart enough to know what's going on in their life so we have to just be really really careful and get those stress cases That you know the people may be going through out in front of everyone. That's such a good point because I think I mean some people even have in their email signatures. They have have a great day and it's same point. That's not a message you wanNA give to everyone. Yeah yeah though with a with a person though like if I think there's often a little bit more tolerance for for human saying that right like somewhere after we sign off. I'll probably say you know. Have a good one guys and you know. I don't know what's going on in your day. I don't know but I think people just are given a little bit more leeway to be conversational and friendly and and like adapt to context where cold hard interfaces Even a chat Bot. You can't put that sort of same expectation on them so people definitely like are a lot less forgiving and rightfully show. Yeah so so. Is this becoming more and more important as we are getting. Our smart speakers into our homes is the interface dying in favor of the words. I don't know if the interfaces are dying. I think like those. There's a lot of hype around conversational interfaces right now. I'm on a team that the focus is on work in my day job and they're certainly really important and I think talking about language and talking about how we can apply design methods and research to language is really important for for all that work. That's happening. I'm not sure how successful it'll be like I'm not I don't paint myself as a futurist or anything like that But I do think that those things when you're riding a dialogue for one of those things it is designed and a lot of people. Don't think that that way you know. There's a new team. We were working with at work and they heard that I was from X. And they were like okay. Well you know just let us know if we should change anything about how the chat window looks and I was thinking. That's that's not why I'm here. You know like the chat window isn't what gives customers a solution to the problem. They're going through right the dialogue. What you're making actually. That's what does it so I think we. We have a lot of work to do to help. People think of words as a design element that is just as critical as anything else that people have typically thought of as design but seriously Michael What what color should we make that chat window? Oh my goodness the Steve Jobs would have. He would say something about the font and the size of the buttons definitely important so I mean we. We've mentioned all the the voice tone which are kind of concepts next level but I mean somewhere More next step when it comes to writing or creating words for these things but I want to talk a little bit about error messages. You dedicate an entire chapter to messages. And I think that's something that all of us whether were designers writers designers air messages or something. All of us have had to deal with so. Can you give us some some some advice about error messages? I think a lot of where we go wrong with our messages is when we think about as you said dealing with them right like for a lot of teams they come last and usually they're turned up by someone who's doing development work who's like wait hold on there like six months scenario we have to account for. Can you please just write something? General can tell people in all six of these scenarios era has occurred. Please try again and I think that that's kind of where we go wrong there. The story that we tell them that book. There's an interview with Lauren Casey. Here's a fantastic designer. She worked at capital one for some time on You know and Has done a lot of work in the space. And she talks about how she was given this assignment to write a bunch of air messages and no one knew too much about why they were being triggered or what was going on and what she focus on was how she could help people more effectively with those messages. So when you flip it on its head that would be. That would be my main piece of advice. Don't think about an error. Don't think about the user being wrong. Think about how you can help them move forward in every situation. So if there's one big concept for people to go away with that would be the one So you know one of the week. We gave a few ideas for how to approach her messages. On the first one is avoid like the best air message is one that you don't have to have it all because you're design was good enough that It didn't lead down that path right like a lot of these errors come from business processes constraints that people have chosen to put into place. That sometimes don't even need to be there so that you know that that's kind of my big piece of Ice Flip. Your flip your perspective on it and start to them as more positive opportunities and less about like negative moments where people did something wrong. The best air messages no error message exactly perfect. I liked to try telling that to your engineering team though when they come with that list of six. You really do need to have some of this as I'm hearing you talk about this. What I'm thinking is that there are so many heroes up there who are unseen but a writing all these texts that nobody's reading on the product team and for these air messages that nobody's seeing but it solving all of these problems and keeping them away from support and moving them forward and it's just these unspoken heroes of copywriting sitting listening. I hope who are real here. Yeah Yeah and honestly. Many of them are engineers. You know like they're writing them because they have to. Because if you don't write something this code has to be shipped in three hours right. So so. They're they're definitely moments where you meet as a writer or someone who's focused on writing on a team. You may have some of those urgent situations where you have to get something done but if you start to build relationships with those people they can start to identify things earlier and earlier and you can start to solve bigger problems over time then on the other hand there are i. I won't say which which product there is but there was a There's a pretty. There's a error message that appears in a pretty old Adelie product that has been there for a while and For a decade. At least and when you come in with like you know full of vigor and ready to change things and file a juror ticket try to get them to update that air message and you get the response. Oh people just people just google that they can find out what that means if they just google it putting the actual problem. The that's a that's a fun one. Yeah I don't want to call anybody specific out on that so here in this podcast to solve our problems though will read your book. I think there are many many concretely tips and pieces of advice that I certainly GonNa make use of when we're talking to two teams. Well I really wanted to make sure we Michael Does as well. We WanNA make sure we're we're giving some high level context and sort of the the rhetoric around solving these problems in building teams in collaborating. But also you know. Give give gift some very real takeaways. Like some frameworks and some some approaches. So I I like to think. We really like hit a balance of both excellent. Thanks so much for joining US guys all right. Well yeah thanks for having us on a lot of fun I really do like how a medical and Andy of manage to keep the book level that makes it usable for lots of different groups of people. Feels that you could actually hand it to your your your team of DABS. They could read it and get practical tips from it at the same time you could be a US writer and read it or have it by this by this idea. In your desk it'd be really useful. That's a really good point James because I mean of course that speaks to how good they are at what they're writing about Of course you you sort of have to be to be taken seriously but I I I agree. They have done a really good job. Impressed by how easily accessible it is and how easily is flip through and find stuff that. Oh here's a good example. Here's a good example. And just be inspired by it the cynic in me. Maybe we'd go well. Look they're writing. A book about writing is designing. If if they didn't manage to make it feel like it's acceptable by lots of different people. They've probably failed with what they're filled in applic- advocating so applying. What they're actually writing about. Right yeah exactly. That's what I mean. So there's actually more than the more pressure on them to do it correctly that way. Yeah Yeah they've they've raised their own bar But yeah they've done it really well. It's good I also really appreciate the humidity of it that it's actually not. I mean I can sometimes get religion and say things like design. I like we were talking about there. It's really important. I would get decided I but what they're saying it's no it's really important that we cooperate and that everybody's involved Sort of we can work together. Yeah that being intentional is more important than being i. I love that practical hands on approach to this and go tied into what I said about. You could give this book to develop on your your team that you work with you. Maybe think about how how this ties in with error message but also how it ties in with accessibility. One of the things come across his a few designs in my experience. They see some of the accessibility aspects of their role whereas a lot of a lot of the the accessibility side of things. Especially when it comes to scream read isn't and Aria Implementation. It's it's code stuff that needs to be done but it involves deciding what words are going to be used to describe things and what what sequence of words Oakley. Yes and if you're if you're developing if you not aware of this you don't want to do it but they're often developers who are aware of it and try and do it and end up. Putting the words in themselves or deciding which bits of the page or visit the screen are going to be used as the Liberals so. They are doing the design of the words for accessibility without exactly intentionally doing that. Maybe designer hasn't helped them or us. Right doesn't help them say but if he did this all put one there or this points to that level. It's it's I think there's definitely a way that they could help. Raise the quality of some of the UNINTENTIONAL DESIGN. Work Develops maybe do. Yeah that makes me think I mean there's low depending on what write in a button what you're right in an area label or name field. What you're right On a link that triggers that can be triggered by voice because some people use assistive technology that is triggered by voice. So if you haven't decided what word should trigger that that will be decided unintentionally which could potentially destroy things for the future as well because that will probably carry on into other assistive technology. Yeah I I think the I'd like to think that with the amount of chat bots and voice interfaces that have appeared in recent years. This really has helped raise awareness of designing words because we were forced into situations where there isn't much graphical user interface to play with. There aren't there aren't so many pretty little colored things to push pixels around the you have to focus on the words so so if we take Michael Himself. He was working more as a protocol traditional. Us designer initially okay. It's a writer as well but he did a lot more. Us work we'd recognize us. Us Work and now heads the conversational design. Part of his company doing charts Exactly probably focusing on on the words them selves makes me think of it when I started playing video games in the eighty s some of the first Games. I was playing. Were only text based on screen. When I got to choose what direction you want to move in and then the techs told me you are in a room. You have these past to go. This is what you see and and that made me think now that if people who use those games are designing now they probably are better off having that experience realizing that the so much that can be conveyed. Just words yeah. Do you know what I'm GONNA to. I'm going to tell the story. I mean I used to play those games as well and one of the First Games. I used to play text based ones and I think it was called. Sphinx was a text based adventure for the for the BBC microcomputer back in the early eighties. Probably and I am. I used to sit and I used to play with my grandma because she Okay but then. She probably wasn't huge of an older than I am now but but now we can sit together the fact that it was text based being that you know the pace you dictated the pace of the game. There was nothing. It was nothing stressing. You know you could write. Move off pick up. Sold all these kinds of things that he would do attack off or whatever it was that you had in the game. They could work on this together and workout than you discover the commands. I'd really thought about the Connection to designing words back then and that's a good that's a good story about how it actually just bringing it back to. The words means that it's more accessible to a greater number of people. Yeah Nice point maybe bobbling no but one of my stories from my childhood. But it's always fun to hear everyone else's stories as well so if you want to give us some feedback on this interview or even your stories. Then please email you X. podcasts at PODCAST DOT COM. And thank you for spending your time with us and links and notes from the episode of course always found online on you. X. PODCAST DOT COM. If you can't find them in your pod playing tool of choice remember you can contribute to funding the show by visiting podcast dot com slash support of volunteering to help with transcripts is also good and you've found because you're you're the one who always finds all these recommend listening episodes episode sixty a link show. I need more sleep. I can't even remember that you'll probably asleep. Yeah we talk about why? Your design team should include a writer. Apparently have we do amongst other things a nice one. We've we've actually talked about words a few times over the years. You might even remember that one. That webpage just words. What was that called? Yeah there's an episode. We have that. It's called words. Words words I think upset fifty. Yeah there you go go to bonus one remember to keep moving see side. How many mystery writers does it take to change a lightbulb? I Dunno James. How many mystery writers does it take the change? A light bulb to want to screw the bill in almost all the way in and one to give it a surprising twist at the end.

writer US Andy Wilfley Michael Adobe Chicago first Games Sarah Wachter Becher Herod Stockholm Sweden facebook San Francisco Sweden Michael Metz product development Paddock
Competitive Governance with Patri Friedman

Venture Stories

1:51:17 hr | 2 years ago

Competitive Governance with Patri Friedman

"Hey, everybody. It's Eric torbert co-founder partner, Philip global, eight network driven venture firm, and this is metro stories a podcast covering topics. G tech business with world leading experts. Everybody. Welcome to another episode of Becher stories by global on here today with special guest poetry's Friedman's hundred welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having many. Aren't we have a lot to get ensues? So we're gonna talk about your advocacy, whereas wig, see steadying thoughts competitive, governance thoughts on her dough. Investing finance marketing, the world's first maybe let's start with what is crypto skeptic crypto as inform your best existence face. Sure. So the idea for me is the combination of believing in the hype and the promise of crypto to really transform the world yet the same time also -greeing that there's a lot of poor structure in the ICO's their product have no chance of delivering value and just a lot of bad incentives sort of like with dot com. The internet really did change the world and also most IPO's were junk, and there's actually not really any conflict between those us. So I want I want to give backup up give service contacts that you've been thinking about somebody's ideas since early two thousand city for that. So backing up a bit your your grandfather's Filton Friedman. Your father is David Friedman group Lincoln a lot about these ideas, you had a line and other podcasts online who would have been the nerds the Austrian. Economists would be getting rich give a little bit of history. Sue, how you sort of come to these ideas, how your work over the last two decades that you to where you are right now. Sure. Absolutely. I majored in math. And then computer science actually studied cryptography in discrete math. And you know as a as a libertarian back then in like late nineties early two thousands. You know as fascinated by things like haven co by David Chan's e cash systems, so just a longtime interest in this topic. Although back then I kind of didn't really think about the decentralized nature of these networks or how important governance. Could be and then at the same time, you know, is very interested in this question of like, how can we have better countries? I just felt like dissatisfied like like this country is not very good. And I looked around like, oh, there's not any better countries. Why not what's what's going on into that kind of what I read and studied in theorize about this question of like, why don't why don't governments work very well. And I came at this idea that you can think about government like an industry, and if you think about like an industry has some really poor characteristics innovation first off there's not that many countries. It's really hard to switch countries from one to another, and it's really hard to start a country, and you know, those sentences all sound really weird and we're talking about countries. But if we were talking about firms would be like, oh, yeah. Give some industry. What's hard to switch providers? It's hard to start a competing provider. There's not very many providers. Of course, it's gonna do a terrible job like give it has no startup sector. Of course, it won't innovate, and I think that's no different for government than anything else. And so with that. Idea. I came up with the idea that the ocean might be the best place to create the startup sector and build new countries. I got funding for that from Peter Thiel back in two thousand eight left my job at Google advocated for it. So that's something that I've been thinking about and working on for a long time. And then more recently with the rise of the crypto industry. It's been absolutely amazing to see how in an environment where governance matters, but where you have exit where you can't force off it system. You can't just write code. You don't have to approval from country. How fast governance is evolving? And so now, I'm just super excited at the sectors are kind of coming back together. And we have this world as there's this crossover now between bits and atoms between virtual governance in physical governance in where their influencing each other. I just think that's super exciting. I want to get into czar stuff, but even to zoom back if I think about tracing the Serb natural evolution a your your father classical liberalism, her capitalism. Your data's pioneering sort of all more entered her capitalism. Ended us for putting those against practice via competitive governance hunters are big about the pollution between your grandfathers were at your father's work at your Wor. Yeah. I think there's actually like kind of a natural progression, which is like unusual fits like almost too. Well, where each of us hadn't approach for changing the world that kind of like failed and got rejected. We'll see if mine does too. But where my grandfather was about coming up with good policy. Like, here's a good law to achieve what you want. Okay. You want publicly funded education, but he wants to be of good quality give a certain amount to each student about your that. They can then take to a private school, and he also focused on advocacy on making like. A really good case. A clear cogent polite argument for something and trying to change the world that way, and you know, in some way to his very successful like a number of his policies got implemented. But the overall arc of how America has kind of developed than degenerated didn't really change. And so then my dad comes along a generation later, and we now have public choice economics like where people go in. It's kind of like cryptic economics, analyzing attack vectors of the system where you go, and you say in a democracy with these voting rules, what are the incentives and will actually produce good laws, and we have Nobel prize in economics. It says no a democracy won't actually tend to produce laws that are good for people. And so he came up with along with other people system called in ARCO capitalism where you have private production of laws private entities, competing make entire legal systems. And where there's some economic theory that suggests that this might actually produce laws that are of net benefit, but. Then, you know, over the course of decades advocating for that tens maybe hundreds of thousands of people were like, oh, that's really cool. I want to try the system I come along. And it's like, okay, why does not exist? Why hasn't even gotten to try it? It must not be that we need good policies or good arguments. Because my grandfather had those in, you know, we still have a poorly functioning world, it must not be that we need an idea for a good legal system because my dad had one, and it it doesn't exist. So what's missing? What's missing? Is. That no matter how good ideas for new political legal systems. Are there's no place to try them. And so, you know, I come along and say, okay, that's what we need. And you know, we'll find out whether or not there are see censor charter cities that bring new legal systems into the physical world, or whether there's you know, some deeper problem remaining is really putting it in your grandfather. Not and solve see the need for new legal. Just not get. There was sort of the leap that your mother took that your other where did they differ? If at all, I think my dad was more. We're willing to take the ideas of freedom voluntary interaction to the extreme. And that he came out at partly from that sort of moral place of okay? So if having less than less government is is a good thing because we interact freely through choice like is it possible to have no government at all. And I feel like it almost started out as a thought experiment, and then turned out as he developed that there there's actually sort of economic theory behind it. But I think you know, there's also a generational thing between what other ones trying to promote evolution revolution. I think it's as system ages and gets more and more towards collapse may look at the, you know, the rise of right wing leaders and people voting for much more extreme candidates than they did before. I think it's partly out of desperation as things fall apart. You look for more and more radical solutions, and that's just natural woods a summary that you devastated you'd say to white democracy doesn't work and what about new. Is like liquid democracy or the other sort of mechanisms that people in proposing said, sir, I think that there's actually a lot of different reasons for democracy, but the simplest one is the idea of of concentrated versus dispersed interests. So this is the idea that if there's if somebody proposes a law that would cost every American dollar that's three hundred million dollars loss announce oppose it benefits some company by thirty million. So on net that's two hundred seventy million dollar loss for society. But such a law will pass every time in a democracy. In fact, democracy is almost like a system for passing laws like that on the reason is with some legal change is gonna cost me a dollar. I'm never going to know about it. Like, I don't have the time to track the ten thousand paragraphs of law every year that might cost me a dollar. There's no way that would ever be worth my time, whereas the corporation that benefits by thirty million dollars. They're gonna know about it. They probably wrote that paragraph. They're happy to spend ten million dollars on lobbying. For it and get a twenty million dollar profit. And so our system this thing that happens where passes laws that hurt. Everybody a little bit and benefits some special interest. People see that as a failure mode or it only happens to have the wrong leaders. But it's actually the expected result of the system where you get to vote every few years for one candidate and give like, you know, one did of information every three years, I think that liquid democracy in some ways it improves on this by letting you delegate at any time and by letting you delegate per topic liquid democracy is sort of like a delegated proof of stake system. But it doesn't change these informational problems. And in the same way that I might not know about a paragraph of law. That's gonna hurt me. I can't necessarily judge like, okay? Who is the person who knows how to look out for those laws and knows how to prevent them. So I think it's an improvement, but has some of the same problems this year. He said a eight would have we learned over the last decade or so experienced like would have you knew. Now, he would imply that if you like that. Story little bit, sir. I'm gonna say that one thing is that it this should have been obvious. But it turns out to be a lot easier to get a new stories and even to get people writing science fiction stories than to start a new country, and we kind of constantly tried to bring ourselves back from, you know, the news in the excitement to to the practicality. But I still think we could have done better at that. I mean, I think we're in a really exciting time for competitive governance there like there is not yet a C said or an autonomous charter city, but the willingness of governments to consider these ideas in the number of of tech leaders who think yeah, obviously with needs startup countries has really grown. So see setting institute has an agreement with French Polynesia to try to build a cease dead in their waters, the Honduran government beckoned two thousand ten and eleven change their constitution to enable creating charter cities on land. You've got countries now. Are looking into replacing their their currencies with crypto based currencies. You gotta still near that has their e citizenship program. Things are really even though it hasn't happened yet. I'm just saying like an incredibly fertile world for these projects. And I think that in the next decade, we will have multiple competing startup cities. So that's really exciting. I am like kind of less sold on the ocean is being the place for the near term. Partly look to the ocean. Just because countries on land had historically not been willing to offer even semi sovereignty. There is a group called laissez faire city based on the sovereign individual that put a full page ad economist in in the late nineties say we wanna make a city we have over million dollars raise will any country. Let us a no country was was willing to give them any autonomy. And so I looked to the oceans partly out of necessity. Although I do think that some of the physical characteristics of. The ocean actually make it better for star countries. But I think that now that countries on land are willing to do it. It's it's more likely to start on land first because land is just cheaper and easier to build on. Although I still think that in a long term, we have to settle the oceans would can be the wedge that makes governance more mainstream or or closer to mainstream killer app or use case, sir. Or what needs to be true for for realize? I think that partly like, the the continued failure of existing systems and citizens kind of being fed up with it not being willing to just accept that that their country has a poor legal system, or is corrupt refuses to experiment, and I also feel like the internet and to some degree. Crypto may drive it like if if people get used to sing governance evolve at the speed of software, and you have people who you know, you have hundreds of billions in so far perhaps trillions eventually of dollars of wealth created by people using innovative governance. And trying out these new mechanisms in new systems, not just doing things the old way. Not just doing what the textbooks say. You have to do how you have to have money, but trying think brand new I feel like that's going to drive people to expect the same from their countries. And then as these countries start to be created that will put competitive pressure on existing countries just like in any industry, like I feel like a lot of things that I say are like just applying the way talk about any other business to government. So when you have a startup sector, the industry leaders have to either copy the start ups or by the startups in imitate them were they get competed out of existence. And I think the thing is going to happen with the government industry under if it was your Balaj compared to Microsoft's. Yeah. Definitely bloody George thirty year old quote point base was not week straight as a great recruits. Hugh, Pat, more how you're doing but our governance. You doesn't these intercessor on four how they will once each other, sir. I think you know, when I when I started developing these these I was thinking of them as being more separate that. I would that I would invest in charter city projects, and that I would invest in, you know, in crypto projects of of the right type that pass my skepticism, but I'm seeing more and more overlap, the idea of a virtual governance that for example, countries will offer citizenships on the blockchain that we may see, you know, we've been having ios. But when we're gonna have an initial citizenship offering and that using liquid democracy is another example, so using software to actually govern a country, something like liquid democracy. It's it's it's hard to do without software. Like, okay, I get my proxy to you you give your proxy to her. And now she's gonna vote on issues having to do with global trade. Like, you just can't keep track of it. It's not it's not practical. But with software you can. Do it. So I I'm really fascinating about the overlap between these worlds about governance software affecting the real world and about jurisdictions that set up laws explicitly for cryptocurrency or for other types of innovation a medical research medical tourism is one that I'm I'm very interested in Peter Thiel, also kind of see as as as maybe the the the killer app for new physical jurisdiction because he's seen how problematic it is to launch who wants new therapies in the US you've mentioned in writings that the Sharon economies of brilliance, not deception, but brilliant name to introduce the concept of introduced new markets. It's you just before the stupor focus first on sharing insurance so positive as opposed to new economy. And I'm curious there's a similar analogy, for example, that could be applied to competitive governance that makes it more legible accessible less threatening. Is this governments yet? An I think that. What's happening to some degree? If you look, for example, at the hunters program of having these zones not be like in your face. Like, we are independent. We are like doing things differently like we are against you. But instead would what's happening now the charter cities movement with settings decide the of cooperation between a group of people that has the the expertise in the capital to build infrastructure, and to take a legal system administer it in between a country that wants economic development wants more jobs for people and is willing to take, you know, an area of empty land or amta ocean and use it for this for this experiment to provide jobs in. So I think that kind of cooperation is is really important, and that people are going to be more comfortable with these kind of hybrid systems the Honduran program, they haven't launched a city at but they've been working on this program hard for for the last seven years in it's making a lot of progress and in their system the city. Has some freedom to write its own commercial law while having to follow the remainder of hunter in commercial law in all hunter in criminal law and the hundred constitution, and I think that that's you know, if you're focused on the, oh, we want brand new countries where everything's totally different than if like, oh, like, what do you mean, you have to follow the criminal law on constitution? But I think realistically like you can make a much a much better zone to create jobs for people if you can write business law talking about Inc was governing securities money. These are like big big areas. And you know, a lot of the problems with starting companies with economic growth in the developing world is from how hard it is to get a business license or do the paperwork to start a business. So, you know, I think that these kind of hybrid zones we get some new laws, but use some old ones are way to be more friendly for really talented on for out. There were fascinated by the different work at one of. Build something in the space is facing new cities. Especially zones were broadly with your requests for for starters terms. Where do you want see them experimental innovate, or what advice would you have for them that this is something that actually working on through the startup society? It's foundation, which is a nonprofit I'm on the board of, you know, we're working on kind of writing almost a a guidebook, and I would say that like right now as the time if you're if you're a talented entrepreneur passionate about creating communities, you have a group of people that are really interested in your ideas and skills in in real estate or governance. Now's a great time to start a city. You know, there's there's a growing number of countries who are interested in willing to talk to you in organizations like the c sitting institute star Desai's foundation, the center center of governance research, Mark letters org that are all working to actually make these projects happen. So yeah, I think about it as a real estate play partly. And not not that you're gonna make a new society from scratch and build a really strong relationship with your host country. They are your host your partner, your key stakeholder, and as for the rest were working on a guy, let's say look at me personally on on the community builder. I have this podcast audience. That follows my every move let's say for medical enter they would follow me into new city with like the really hard part. Like, what would you would I need to figure out if I can figure out how to get people away with Elsie speed figured out? Right. So I think the hardest parts are basically getting the agreement with the host country so building that relationship, you know, finding a type of of zone where the law that you have independence on our enough to create a business case for what you're doing enough to, you know, often, these countries are are more remit remotes have have less felt infrastructure or have less educated population in union to be about. To make up for that with the quality of your governance with people that you that you bring there, and so you have to if to build that relationship with them and figure out what are the anchor tenants that that make sense the air? I think one thing people neglect is how important it is to have businesses where the physical location matters, you know, for example, doing medical research or medical tourism. That's short trip from the US. I think people people give me ideas for the business. They wanna do in in a a startup country often. It's like, oh, it's this thing on the internet that could be done for from anywhere. But if it can be done from anywhere, then you're competing with every jurisdiction in the world to do it. And it's going to be hard for a startup country to compete with every jurisdiction in the world. They don't have the the infrastructure the trust the institutions are like the scale to to do it. And so I definitely recommend that people think about a businesses that are that are local. You're not just interested in news newsreels interesting through wrestling in governance technology as an industry. What else are you interested in within that round or what other opportunities which recommend entrepreneurs go go pursue? If not new city cities directly, you know, the back to this idea of markets eating the world. I think that you know, part of my thinking in government is thinking about this industry that nobody else thought I was in industry as an industry, and then just making logical conclusions from there. And I think that there's something similar that that people should be doing when they think about about software and crypto systems where everybody's taking about crypto currency right there thinking about these these things as money because they have this bitcoin bias bitcoin was this. I use case, you know, with worth a lot of money. A lot of people got rich on that. It's like this amazing confluence of technologies, and so people then go in launch a thousand other Togan. They think will be stored value that they think that they can like presell at a low price and will accumulate later as opposed to thinking about the idea of these cryptic technologies as being a gorlic technologies, meaning a set of tools that can help us build new markets where markets didn't exist before. And I think that the next hundred crypto startups that that succeed in become unicorns are gonna be start startups that take kind of opaque illiquid markets things that are paper-based is a good way to think of it Balaji has great analogy of the paper belts, like the rust belt of your the industry is like education media government finance that run on paper and are working very well. And I think taking that paper and putting it online in digital form with clear rules in smart contracts like that can spun a hundred businesses. Yes, marketing we've been going back and forth on that. Stupid. And also when did that idea, I come in your mind, you the phrase markets in the world. How is it different from injury? Since software is eating the world in house isn't as investing. These are got coffee. Yeah. It came to mind earlier this year when I was doing a lot of just thinking and kind of writing privately about crypto technologies in as you say, it's inspired by Mark Andriessen, great line that soft raising the world and kind of what he meant by this is that it's easy to think of there being this limited tech industry. This sort of narrow area where this technology can apply in their some number of things that you go to the web and should be replaced by algorithms and then were done. But in fact, the idea of automating decisions or you know, putting putting things that are currently being done by by humans in the physical world into computers is something that can affect every industry. Right. I mean, like just think of anything think like gardening gardening seems like something that doesn't need to be replaced by software, but there are apps that. I can use your smartphone and satellite pictures to try to figure out what's wrong with your crops based on technology. You know, you could be like looking up. Oh, like what the optimal son for this plant on your smartphone? Like software is so general that it can affect everything. And that's why the wave has never like crashed. It's never peaked were still replacing things with software, and we're gonna keep doing that. And then what I thought about looking at looking companies like Uber. Airbnb EBay Amazon that were creating markets. And then looking at cripple technology is that there might be the same thing with markets eating the world where the the number of different industries that can be transformed by taking informal things and making them into markets might be huge. Like, it's something that could potentially touch every area of life. And so, you know, Airbnb in innocence was token ising hotel rooms Uber was token ising cabs. They took. These markets that worked poorly were split up. And then brought them online formalize them like innocent relies way. But where the market was just way more effective in this form. And I went and the chemo in for me. I went and looked at the list of all unicorn companies by market cap and counted, which of them are taking things and making them into markets and it was half like half of current unicorns worked by making a market in something. And and that was what kind of confirmed for me that this. This is a big trend. And so a lot of people draw line to cryptocurrency from sake pay pal like, oh, it's digital money. But for me the line that that I draw is from all of these sharing economy companies, and that's kind of what crypto is the evolution up. So if you were let's say join under Snarlin now, your invest mandate is or concede the world does this would have been. Go into all areas that healthcare education don't have real markets and try to serve them through companies create you'll commies or the actually will never be a market here. Or will never be big enough. How how would these impact your investing decisions where you mess yet? I mean, there's there's not really a simple answer for sort of like industry by industry or resource by resource like what things can easiest most easily be made into markets in which can't and that's going to depend on kind of specialized knowledge in every domain. I mean, there's some things like like restaurant food catalogs or like, international shipping and logistics. Where like it's just it's obvious that those things could be better markets, and there's other things like governance, which is more controversial or some people ignore you shouldn't be able to sell your votes, you know, people like my dad feel like he could build an entire legal system off the idea of private company. Negotiate to get the best laws for their for their customers. And so I think. Yeah. Something that you could spend it's been ten thousand page answering like sort of in every sector of our lives. You know, can this be made into a market how soon will be made into a market how much does it matter to decrease the prices. So there's not out a simple answer. We talked about the paper belts and financer aims to do that for finance. What do you think about authentication specifically in terms of run-up that? Yeah, I'd definitely say that that education. It's it's not something that that I'm personally focused on. But it's clearly one of these areas like like, finance unlike government, that's kind of been working worse and worse. That's that's operating this old way where he these powerful gatekeeper institutions that are extracting rents and that just just needs to be disrupted, and you know, like making a marketing education. I mean, here's one example that my grandfather proposes the idea of. Selling a share of your future income in order to fund president expenses like especially present education. Like, there's no reason why couldn't have a market, you know, instead of using instead of using student loans that you instead sold a share of your future income or your income for the next ten or twenty years to someone in return for educational law, and then you would actually have pricing. It actually have somebody who cared about the question of like is this investment gonna make them more money like what what are the costs benefits, which is something that that we just neglected and so where you'd actually only trying to make like positive investments in what we instead have with colleges. They sort of like emotions about the idea that going to college is how you have social mobility. It's height. You ensure yourself a good job, you know, which were true in previous generation on our demonstrate like not true now. Right. Twenty percent of people go to college than you can guarantee yourself. Good job by going to college. If eighty percent of. People. Do it doesn't mean the same thing. So I think that's definitely something where we need markets. Healthcare's a lot trickier. I think that in a lot of the problems with healthcare our problems of of opaque pricing and just everything that comes from the fact that that third party pays you know, there's kind of whole whole mass. That's not that we need more markets. It's this when you have a third party a paying, and when you have like this annual up-front payment, then covers a bunch of things. He just get messed up incentives in the whole system that evolves from there is is screwed up. So I think we could use a lot more market healthcare. But it's not straightforward. How to how to create them? Have you requested company or could you see yourself doing? So or do you sort of say only owned two complicated, or to the experts or doctors under there is not much opportunity there relative to things like education. Yeah. I think that it's ver- it's very specialized in that for things that are that are disrupted in the current system. You need to understand kind of how the bureaucracy and how the insurance industry works. And then there's the the area like of new treatments where again, there's very very specialized knowledge. So I if it was something that I that I knew a lot about I could imagine investing in it. It was interesting does Cuban comedy uncommon contractors or secondary concern agreements notice today. I think there's version of the world in which you don't Milton Friedman's grandson pursued that had on stead of better known as you were just observing room. If you brought that to the world, why did that happen? You not crazy enough to someone impractical. Or would you draw from that? I think for me I like I started out motivated by what? I wanted as a as a citizen, and you know, I was I was able to in our in our system like pay for my education in that wasn't wasn't a burning need. But I was very very dissatisfied with kind of how the country was run in what the options were kind of, you know, started from that personal need and kind of went on a journey where eventually was like, wait a second. This is something that that the whole world needs like people all around the world, especially the developing world really suffering from having bad governance from not being able to start new systems and not having there be a place like America was in the nineteenth century where people from all around the world could go there and work hard in an honest legal system and make a new life. And so I think they governance is just bigger. But maybe it's maybe it's thornier. Maybe it's not the right problem to crack. But to me, it's kind of the big one. How do you think about change from the inside or disruption from the outside of US takes Bush? One is given your desire for competitive governance to give it to Peter Teal's Iraq rise to physical. You'll powering us if if there was a world, which you maybe there has been world which offered a spot in the White House or or opportunity to change from Wickford. How would you measure that from disrupting from without not these issues? Yeah. That's a great question. I think you know, it's really tempting to just like it's tempting to be like, all right? If we're going to start a new country needs to be completely independent. We need to have like a legal system that we right from scratch that has absolutely perfect. According to our our philosophies on that, you know, that's actually not the best way to to to change things. And so it's really tempting to be like, oh, you know, I would never want to reform things from the inside. And I think the people do have a bias against building relating new things. You know, that there are there are too few start ups and too few experiments, and the people way more often wanna try to patch our existing system, and that usually doesn't work that that most. Of the problems are not, you know, not caused by own. Nobody suggested a better in our mental policy. They're not caused by like we didn't vote the right person in there caused by having a system of incentives that does not incentivize making good environmental policies. And so I think that people are incremental ISM that people like usually wrong and have a huge bias or trying to do it too much. And that the world we get much more progress if we try it more radical solutions and people are understandably nervous about radical legal changes. And that's why we need to have these zones of experimentation, you know, where you you're like. Okay. Well, if you don't wanna try this radical legal proposal great. You don't have to buy by continuing in staying put and doing what you have been doing. You're not going to have to do it. It's only the people who opt into it. And I think I think that that's that's really important. How do you have multiple? Governments without also having a civil war earnings rounds. Well, I mean, we we we do in the US have multiple governments without having a civil worth. So it's, but it's also the balance of power has has shifted enormously over the course of of America's history. So on the one hand, it's like, well, you can but on the other hand, it's like, okay. But who is actually in control who actually has more power. And how do you stop them over time from doing what the US federal government did and just taking more and more and more power or to themselves in this question of how do you how do you have self protecting systems? How do you have checks and balances on on power on sovereignty? You know? I I don't think there's easy answers. I think it's it's like one of the great question that we face. But I think that there is you know, there is one set of answers which is much beloved in the crypto her. She community are much hated depending who you are. And that's that's exit that the the right to fork, and that that's a way to even fundamentally limit the power that in Susan has. So that if it's doing a poor job of serving you you just leave, and you know, there's something beautiful in crypto about how you can you can leave, but still keep your money in that you can fork assist them and still keep the same balances, you know, and that's kind of harder to do physically. Like, we can't just clone. A copy of of all of the Bill things are everybody's everybody's property. But it still really important that we keep exit in mind as as a threat to those who would take advantage of us going back to Mark world. When question is would new markets happen is why have they happened before you might say his either people weren't frustrated enough or there was a low enough transaction costs technology to to naval them is that. Inaccurate has. No, what prevents market from everything already. Yeah. I mean, I mean look at some of the markets that exist today. Google for example, has, you know, Google continuous auction for ad slots on search results like tens of billions of dollars of revenue every year coming from continuous auctions that use predictions of click through rate on ads and a bid of how much each ad slot is worth any click as worth, you know, that is completely impossible without a ton of technology. And I think that a lot of markets are possible today that weren't possible in the past just just because of those changes through with them crypto uniquely able here. So to me what kind of what crypto is is decentralized networks of economic interaction with cryptography to provide provability of what happened. And so I think it enables kind of a general creation of markets. With internal currencies and formal roles for who who validates transactions in the market like who provides resources to the market. What transaction is what the history is. So to me, what's what's what's huge about crypto? Why I'm I kind of believe in hype is this idea that like what it uniquely enables is markets, and that that's something that, you know, can be applied to to everything. And there's a lot of like trickiness to the fact that in a crypto system you have to come up with the rules about who gets rewarded how much for doing what in advance that. You can have some degree of of bidding for that. But then you have to come up with your bidding system in advance. But then and now you're operating you have this flow of resources through the system in are they being directed in the right proportions. I think is really is really tricky. And that there are. Systems for offering storage for offering CPU time for offering these different resources in a criminal network. But they're not like, they're not mature. We haven't seen. They actually work. We haven't seen that you can token is stores that you can token is CPU at end that can be, you know, at a big scale something that replaces dropbox, but at least what it looks like to me is that crypto is like kind of uniquely enables all those kinds of markets. And this is something that has been suggested since since the court papers in in nineteen eighty eight by Mark Millar, Eric Drexler, which I think is a very much neglected in undesired undeservedly neglected piece of early crypto writing the just kind of didn't happen to get cited a lot, but was very influential. Is there anything else you can unpack about the work papers in terms of their country? Or what we in? You mentioned is. So I mean, there's so much. I definitely recommend people. Just Google gore papers read that it talked about the general idea of creating markets using software, including markets for computational resources. You know, and again, this is in in one thousand nine hundred eighty eight and ideas about about smart contracts connection between object oriented software and private property. And how objects on a distributed economic net will work with enact in the future. How there'd be markets for computation time for storage? How rather than wasting our idle occupational resources, you could just sell them on the market questions of security, the idea that these networks would all tend to produce an internal currency like all these things we're you know, we're in this the papers in nineteen eighty eight. So it's just it's just absolutely fascinating. How much they predicted. And you know, something's got wrong, for example, when talking about how they're naturally. Like a form of money to pay for resource allocation, these time relational systems, they're like, you don't really need public key cryptography to do that. Because if the software is running on like mutually, trusted hardware as long as every process has a unique identifier. Then you can just keep accounts. You know, obviously, they were working from the the days of timeshare systems, you know, that we're not as heavily network in. It turns out that we are doing crypto on these decentralized network where there's no incredibly low trust and part of the key to what is making these networks exceeds that they can thrive in this environment of of low trust. So in this like got some things wrong. But they they got a lot right to it would've for Marcus to eat the world's unique transaction costs to come down yet. In a lot of present day crypto solutions, sir transaction costs, actually, go up. How do you? How do you reconcile that? I think there were a very early stage of crypto technology, and that you have to things that where transaction costs will be raised are not gonna tend to make good markets in till you get to the point where the benefits, for example of having a much larger. Market overcome those higher transaction costs through leasing systemic risk. Go from marketed the world's can into interconnect markets created stunk. How do you see that applying? Elsewhere, fluker, exclusive to Nassar finance. Yeah. So it's a really interesting question about like what will assist let me try to to to rephrase as the idea in a future. We have all of these distributed economic networks for all different kinds of resources, and where you have these software based agents that are taking actions in these networks. So where he got like stocks today bonds today real estate storage computational power, you know, insurance markets for what happens if there is a weather change someplace again a world where you have all of those networks all of those markets and software operating on them. What is the systemic risk? And you know, I think that that's kind of like there's more risk because it's a system net. No, one person can understand analyze and it's going to interact in these in these strange ways. But there may also be less risk. You know, because we've partitioned off things into these differences. Dems because we can apply like formal rules for you know, in what circumstances. Do we freeze a market, and we can see okay? Like in the weather markets, like we need to freeze things if you know this unusual that happens, and maybe we can learn from that have similar rules in in other markets. So I I think it's really a I think it's hard to answer right now. Whether the having all these interconnected complex systems that we don't understand will produce more risk or whether these networks are kind of inherently more anti fragile than what we have today. I think there's there's factors both directions. But either way it'll be it'll be really interesting in areas have market failures today. You all the now he's on internalized it. Maybe you just you even that promise new. So let me know is on the government intervention or some sort of other intervention, when do you just use the premise serious would is the woods as the role of of governor? Or which drove. So I I mean, I agree with the concept of market failure that you know, sometimes you have transactions that don't capture all the costs that impose costs on third parties. But I think it's an error to then say, and therefore in those circumstances, you can empower this third party of the government to fix it. And then if you look in practice that, you know, the the budget of the United States, I'm like, what are the things that it does or you go to the Federal Register, and you know, open it to random page and look at a random law that you'll see that like in practice, even though there's this justification for government. Existing of like, oh, we need to fix those types of things, and there's a theory behind it. That's that's true in practice, trusted, third parties or security holes as has Nick Saban would say that when you give all this power to the central authority, which is run by humans the same kinds of humans who make these transactions the same kinds of humans that cause extra nowadays. They don't like magically with perfect honesty and diligence. Fix the extra nowadays they just like make new extra nowadays of their own. And so, you know, it's not that market failures not not real in theory. But the always have to compare this is only my dad gives talks about compare market failure to government failure. Okay. The market has failed to to do the proper thing in this situation. And we have we have a good understanding. So why it might happen? Like extra nowadays. What is the reason why we think that a government or a third party put in charge of this based on how we monitor them in know, like how say an election system, or like, what are the how can we know whether they're doing their job? Well, and what are mechanisms to remove them? If they aren't given the realities of that, do we expect this person to make this problem go away or they just gonna use the power to make more problems of their own. I think that in the vast majority of cases people do use their power when they're giving it to like overtime as a system of all to create more problems rather than. Solved original ones endlich. We don't have a mechanism by which we can assign a third party like the job of doing something in our interests as our agent and then monitor them and hold them to it without them taking advantage of it. Like, you know, we do not have a philosophy a theory for how to do that. And so you can't just assume it you have to work with what what you have in practice, which is swat markets in flawed governments, which should the role of government be. You're not. You're not he I when I was younger, I would've I would've answered like what the role of government should be based on either my morals or ethics sort of what I want is a libertarian, but I've actually really really changed my views because of of c- studying competitive governance that instead of thinking that there's a a role a government that we can philosophically derive or that. There's a perfect legal system. Would I think instead is like I'd like to see a an industry of different countries started by different people with different philosophies all kind of competing for my business like any each having different answer to the question of what's the role of government? And the let's see in practice like, you know, not over drinks at the bar, not in like thousand page essays was actually see which are good places to live, which are good places to work what, you know, which countries in which systems take care of people. And then see how they evolve over time as. Different countries copy from each other and imitate other draw from the latest philosophy. So I I now fundamentally see this as an engineering problem and not a philosophy problem. Like I used to. Let's see sitting you achieved cheeses some other product does who are sort of the obvious winners. Losers released expected beneficiaries are people that may be may be harmed by that. I think that that that the huge non obvious beneficiary of C sitting is is the poor. And that that's kind of in the same way that who you know, who benefited from the United States being being founded, it was the million plus people a year who came from other countries to make a better life. And I think that there are billions of people in this world we were being held back by living in legal systems that aren't working very well. And that if you could make new zones for those people to go to that would just unlock more human potential than than anything else. So I think I think that because you know, the advocates for C setting people like me, you know, I'm I'm a well off. Tech guy who lives in the San Francisco Bay area and people who funds see sitting researcher are people like Peter Thiel. And so people think of it as being some kind of like, oh, it's gonna be a haven for the rich or it's gonna be a way for people to escape taxes, which is kind of ludicrous, given it there's twenty countries you can go live in today, you know, and not not pay taxes. Like, you don't you don't have to move for that. But I think that really it's going to be some combination of entrepreneurs from the first world who are like, hey, I want to go live on of his better system. I wanna go, you know, try out this new thing be pioneer of a new society. And then it's going to be all the people who would have moved to the US in the nineteenth century people who want to work hard make a better life for themselves in their children. And that that's going to be a major beneficiary ac- setting Goumba to marketers for second. Are there any areas using government or some other third party can make them more effective solution than markets? Any specific type of industry. Bravo. I think that that self defense is in is an important one. You know, were maybe you could have markets in nuclear deterrence certainly been proposed. It's pretty difficult in general. I think that one issue with kind of making markets in everything is that we humans are not just general purpose computers. You know, we have from Evelyn we have these these certain things that are intuitive to us. And I think that some kinds of markets really really go against that. You may look at the drive for universal health care as being a manifestation. In fact, we humans are fundamentally uncomfortable with markets for life and death with markets for health. And that's a, you know, it's a challenge for pricing medical services, which you know, are actually markets. They involve like allocating scarce resources and decisions. We just can't give everyone everything but were really uncut. Comfortable with it. And that leads to a lot of inefficiency education is another one where we have this romance about it. And maybe maybe governance is like I'm hoping that we can get people to think about shopping for a legal system. But maybe they can't they're certainly this this deep romance people have for their countries in their legal systems, and you know, people love democracy, not because there's good mechanism designed theories forever because one person one vote just makes sense and seems fair. So I think that the there are problems making markets and things where humans instincts. We have have revulsion reproductive technology is another one if you look at things like lake just station surrogacy, you know, or selling eggs or selling wad. You know, again, these are things that that our economic like like it or not like people want blood and other people have blood, and they won't just give their blood in less. You pay them in some way, or they will only to some degree. You know motivated by wanting to feel good, but it just it excess out and I think it's important to acknowledge that and understand how how it limits what we can make markets in which is is something that I feel like a lot of return aren't very good at I feel like, well, you know, there's not a reason why somebody shouldn't be able to sell sell their blood like in. It would be better. We would have more blood. If the e could like what's wrong with you? But ultimately, if you don't understand why people are opening some ideas and not others. You're not going to be effective at changing the world. That's an gets us some of those areas where humans are you ever? Volition are confused. You're just trying to be changed for crops. Peterburg is one of them. Maybe it's issuing another are there certain areas where you morally would say is just better to not out markets wave on change. Anything maybe defenses is the water for me. It's the the issue with taking markets to the extreme. You know, it's not about there being problems with with markets in in any one thing. But that over time markets tend to like a optimize for whatever for some narrow thing that they're optimizing for. And that like there are lots of great things about competition. I think we could use more of it. But taken to an extreme you cut it. You squeeze like all of the surplus out of life. Like, you squeeze all of the fun all of the art everything that isn't kind of devoted to that singular purpose. And I think that that's a really bad thing, Robin Hanson has this this metaphor that we live in a dream time that the excess we have the extra resources in extra time. We have is like unprecedented. It'd historically and will not last into the future that, you know, we're in this age were our ability to make stuff has gone past, you know, our population growth, and so we have this huge surplus, and that that's not natural in is not going to last it, whatever there's more failure. There's a question of do it should be third party or should there? Be just a redesigned market was to flesh one is is there another alternative to that. And then two is going to get into to redesigning markets in the maybe went wells, while media's ner, I think that people will want there to be this line between markets in governments that you know, that it's really much more continuous that, you know, even within like a government, you have you have competition for scarce resources and the the question of whether it's better to fix a market failure with a different market mechanism or a regulation or the government. Nash. Nationalizing it nothing. That's it's it's going to be different for for every case. And that it's something that parliament of view of government is that it's a technology meaning at something that we can develop make better in lots of little ways and that specializes to kind of each different situation. So, you know, it's not that like it's always better to use some certain mechanism or it's always better to use government. But that it's an exploratory process where as the types of things need to regulate grows in changes as our ability to grow and change. And we have this whole science of how we design institutions, how do we design incentive systems and regulations who watches the watchers? We developed the technology of governing at the same time. We developed the technology of, you know, space traveler doing everything else, and then the to interrelate in we lake up fly our governing technology to try to govern each of the the civic areas, you know, and the the. The right kind of governance technology is very different in different areas. Like, how do you govern nuclear weapons or people researching, you know, bio weapons, they can kill everyone versus how do you govern somebody growing some wheat on some land? Like, those are very different. And you know, that my like kind of fear slash hope is about whether as our our capabilities to change the world are advancing and advancing. Like is our ability to regulate those capabilities like falling behind I feel like people are doing way too little research on ways of governing. And they're just like, oh like, you you make a democracy, and then everything is good. And like that's a problem because our governance challenges like we're trying to coordinate a more and more complex world where people can do things with more and more global impact, you know, and that's a challenge in governance environment. That's why think it's so critical that we be trying new society's trying new legal systems and new mechanisms. So we can find stuff. That works better in. That's one reason I'm excited about krypton, though, is that it's a place where we can try new mechanisms on governance is gonna move all at you know, at codes bead instead of paper speed because you looked out let's say you had fifteen to twenty year new cities all with their own leaders jurisdictions you existed bettas wish one can be successful with society's with leaders restrictions your characteristics of each with loans. People successful. I think the one thing that's going to tend to make for successful society is being practical rather than ideological. You know, even though I came at my initial dissatisfaction from the world from the very kind of libertarian ideological point. You know, if if you look at it, a successful place like Singapore, you know, Lequan you had to make a lot of like constant practical trade-offs in how he governed wasn't that he had some some grand foot loss of. Of like, here's a good athlete. What right and wrong is he made a series of of decisions based on circumstances. Another thing, I think that are kind of modern attitude towards you ax towards making our products. Give people a great experience, you know, as as so so well pioneered by apple and Steve Jobs. I think that successful startup cities will think that way they'll think of the city and the society as a citizen experience, and they will try to make it a good, smooth integrated happy citizen experience. I think that that that they'll probably be pretty centralized. You know, I think it's it's really tempting to try to invent a society where everything is decentralized, and there's no leader in everything is in markets. But I don't think that we can do that yet. Like, I think that we're we're learning how to coordinate more and more things in a decentralized way. And and made me bitcoin. Will prove that the money and the global store value can be decentralized. But that doesn't mean that you can necessarily like run an entire society in decentralize way. So I think Singapore cross apple. Going back to the question to you, gene from within I JJ from without those Russian of Duve engage with the disdain system. So given the state of our government do the next day while we're not. Yeah. I'm kind of I think it doesn't matter to the system if you vote, but maybe it matters to you in terms of what it means, you know, and then you can make the case that knowing about what's going on and like reading net little pamphlet and thinking through the issues has some tiny amount of value. But I also like the idea like don't vote it just encourages them. I think that like opting out of a broken system is a way to to demonstrate like how you feel about that to stem, and that to me part of like, the perverse genius of democracy is how it takes our instincts to have a voice in like be counted and be part of our decisions. And then Harnett is in a way where we like actually have almost. No individual influence, but we have that like full feeling like we got to be her to be part of things you combine that with how people are kind of following all latest politics on the news than they argue about their friends and who's right new wrong, which we do about the Middle East, and who should be allowed into our country in in who shouldn't and it's this like brilliant insistent for people being able to like let off steam and feel like they're part of something that they're like they're not really part of. And so I think that the part of what good honorable people do is they try to like do their duty even when it's not in their benefit. And so I respect the people who were like, yeah, I'm going to go vote. Even though it's not worth my time. Because that's what a good person does. But that spirit is not ultimately gonna fix things. Like, I think the spirit gonna fix things people acknowledging that they're broken being like, okay? This does not work. Let's build a system where you're. Visions, actually matter. What might that's a salute? Like were everyone's voter system, actually might that be different. The the main way that your decision could actually matter is is the difference between casting a vote and buying a house like when you cast a vote. What happens is the same for everyone. And it's based mostly you know, ninety nine point nine nine percent on what other people chose when you buy a house. You get that house. You live in that neighborhood, your family goes to that school district, and so we fundamentally evaluate that choice better. And so a system where each person gets to choose, for example, what legal system they live under and gets the consequences of that decision is one where we're your choice matters. And sure there might not be, you know, you don't get the legal system says like I can punch everybody who I am offended by what they're wearing clinic. I'll just punch them, and they can't do anything to me like you're not gonna get the legal system because the legal system is about laws that apply to UN me interacting together. And we're going to both have our interests in our negotiations. But I think that we could have a lot more choice. For legal system than we do. And we'd have way better ones. If people were actually shopping for legal systems, and then getting them to almost like proof of state like systems where people have voting power in accordance to it HAMAs. Well, they have how much state they haven't occurrences. Definitely am I think that waded systems where like different people get different amount, depending on a voice of much skin. They have in the game. I think are just are better are like mathematically able to express a wide variety of mechanisms. So I definitely I definitely favor that what is your loss beyond on wealth inequality inequality roller? Yeah. I think that income inequality is it's really tough. You know, one of the things that I think about why we're getting more income inequality that I feel like non enough people are talking about is this idea that as the gets more and more complex the old ways of doing things work worse and worse and the new ways of doing things are like what somebody figured out a ten years ago. You know, so I have this this line that a thousand years ago, you could use a hundred year old strategy, you know, for what to do for a living for what you should eat for you should marry and would work pretty well and a hundred years ago. Ago to do as well with his strategy need strategy that was only ten years old. And that Nino nowadays, a good strategy is one that's, you know, maybe one year old, and as our environment changes faster and faster and the right things to eat or the right people to marry or the right places to go to school or the right jobs, changes faster and faster. It means that we have to figure out like from scratch with the best thing to do is. Because it's different now than it was a hundred years ago, and the more every single person in society has like figure out from scratch has that research in evaluation product of white. Okay. What should I believe in a what should I eat? How should I exercise? Should I marry like that's hard and the more that just getting like having a normal? Good life requires like figuring out everything from scratch and a massive research project the harder it's gonna be for most people like most people don't have the time for that. They don't have the skills for that. And so I think we're living in a world where we're just making it, you know, yet. To be more. And more of like, an info bore, you know, research maniac in just to have a good life. And of course, that's going to increase inequality because the the the skills that takes in order to make the right decisions for your wife is just getting higher at higher. But I think that's a huge problem. And that's why I'm such a fan of movements that are about kind of figuring that out for people in like spreading, you know. Here is a good lifestyle in the modern age and communities of people that are like, you know, a Rettig group that tries to figure out how often you should masturbate. Like, you know, it sounds if dumb, but like knowing like weather not to masturbate him. Like what technology? Do you use to do it that the environment for doing that as totally different now than it was one hundred years ago? Like, we have things that we did not have that. And, you know, making good decisions takes a bunch of people trying different things and being like, yeah, I'm just not going to masturbate holy shit this works, and I think the same is true for for. For diet and for for education, and that there's just a lot of areas where you know, we need communities that are getting together. Figuring out best practices for twenty eighteen and disseminating them. Shoot one not Nassar bait for personal health is was a. One should probably not use modern porn, and that's more cultural like because you're mindless was your body that. Yeah. Because of what it does to your mind. Like, we we live in an environment where you can see different things than you could see a hundred years ago. Like, for example, if you go and read, you know, if you watch a lot of TV or read magazines, you're saying like airbrushed versions of the most beautiful people out of billions of people, and that's what you're naturally going to compare yourself to or compare your partner to and that's that's dangerous that's bad for people. You know, we have all like seeing a hundred fifty people or maybe, you know, seeing a painting on that one time we took a trip to the big city, and, you know, this modern varmint where you compare yourself with a fake version of the best, you know, same thing with people comparing why? To what they see on on face Facebook Instagram, it's really problematic. With did it say anything about frequency? I it's it's more like like with an addictive problem. The simplest solution is to just not do it at all. And so I like thinking about the there's an entire Rettig community. No fat and Senate tire community dedicated like, okay, we can break this addiction by bringing frequency two zero. And they're not saying like, it's bad for your body to ever masturbate. But the simplest thing to do in this environment is to just stop completely. But help amount is reasonable. Totally. Yeah. I mean, the problem is not masturbation. The problem is, you know, if internet porn with alterior also stated prompts, Tinder, totally totally. And the problem is, you know, high carb high fat, high salt foods, like they're all these things that are that are produced to like hijack desire for the advantage of the producer. It is interesting. The crypto is sort of within the bitcoin community bothers also serve a high only community have you visible? Yes. Definitely. I mean, I think it's it's a fat say overlap. I I've been in this overlap for for a long time because we had like the libertarian paleo, you know, vibe room wearing poly-amorous community, and you know, some of those things like paleo, I think worked out really well and other things like vibrance kind of worked out neutrally and other things like poly-amorous worked out really really poorly. But there's definitely like people who are open to new things are gonna go and try a bunch of different new things and people are like screw the narrative about Fiat money and the central banks like, and then, you know, saying that they give you able to print money. Like, I want to use this thing where the money is limited. Nobody's in take it and there's no third parties. You know are also going to be the kind of prior to the people who are like, I'm just gonna eat meat nothing. But me like you say, I should be eating like whole rain. Screw that. I'm only going to eat meat like there's a connection between them it. Why not all vegetables? I bet I bet there's probably a higher frequency of people who eat all vegetables in the crypto community than in the in. The general community is distributed as much press. Can it's not as awesome, right? It might be on the rails with specity material is like if I apply venture investor perspective to it as either you want you want to pursue things that have low downside at high upside. And conversely, you don't wanna pursue things that have high downside low relatively low upside in so they're already in a happy relationship. I think that when choosing a plan for how do you how do you respond to that for the general public? I think the analogy that I would make between investing in relationships is more about kind of the the world of like short term markets like switching in and out of different things versus like long term value building. You know, an entrepreneur who spends who starts a company and spend twenty years that it is is probably gonna have a lot more success than somebody who's just jumping from job to job like to build something really big in really great. It takes dedication in investment. You know, in that being said there are like times in in people's life, and there are certain people in different situations, depending what they want where like jumping from job to job might be what what makes sense for them where they're not ready to make a big investment or they just want to never make a big investment. And I think that it's kind of legitimate in relationships to to do that. But I think that people have this this idea now that like kinda like you can have both like, oh, you can be poly-amorous. But if you use. The right communication skills in like us. The good words and don't use the bad words in your your all mature enough. And you send your ego side. Like, you know, you can have like the perfect long-term relationship end kids while also having as many as may partners as you want an, and I think that that's just nuts. It's it's great to imagine. But it kind of is not does not work out. Very well in practice that there are you know, we humans are hardwired to to make guard and to have different modes of working people short term versus long term. And you know, the kind of if you want is to have someone there at your deathbed or to like raise a family together that dedicating yourself to one person is probably going to work out the best. And I think there's a lot of people kind of like it's easy to see a professional sports star. And be like, yeah, I wanna play like high school football has like look at that person. Who's famous made a lot of money. But in reality, you know, mostly we are just doing banging yourself in the head. I think that people have this idea of these like poly people who just have all the sex they want. But yet they have like perfect love and have a family in that, you know, those people mostly don't exist and most of the people who try and up and up unhappy. We should all three value investors in relationships. Yes. At least, you know, after the beginning like at some point if you want a big payoff need to be value investor in your relationship. Truly going back to more more Giva programming Trump resent. There's people that say that some people voted for Trump because some very because they wanted to not watching Auburn down, but bring rise to hey, maybe competitiveness or used to that viewpoint as being a reasonable point to have as to why you might overdrawn for mothers is why people very people like for Trump mostly people who prefer Trump, you know, are people who are like less well educated and feel like they aren't being served with all by the current system. You know, that that a lot of the kind of pro-trump and burn it all down as people who have like who've noticed that we have these elites who have structured system to benefit them. And who like not only are are doing things that benefit the average American, but actually like condescend to them like look down on them and snow. Near at the people that that who are who are paying their their salary, and who they're supposed to be serving and people are like sick of that. They're like mad about it. And I think that's great. And I think that there's this kind of minority that most people who are like successful in educated like natural identify with those elites and don't like the Trump has these class signals and different behaviors about appealing to different people. But there's this kind of, you know, minority of people like Peter Thiel who who see that the way that you know, the establishment is not working that leads. They're taking advantage of people in acting superior. And are like, yeah. I I think it's more important to vote for somebody who's who's outside the system then to continue perpetuating, what would doesn't work. I mean, there's these crazy statistics about, you know, the votes based on like how rich a county was and like what percentage of people in Washington DC voted for Hillary where you know. It's it's clear that the that. There's just this this division. Where the people who who run the countr- pre and go to the best schools, really like sorta themselves geographically and culturally from the rest of the country, and that's just that's not stable. And you know, I I think I have plenty of negative things to say about Trump. But he is at least, you know, he's trying to make a bridge to those people until like be the voice of like, the massive Americans who who are kind of being disrespected called rednecks looked down on by people. You know, especially progressive save that they're they're all about compassion and like diversity yet. They're the most condescending towards towards other people of of of anyone. I mean, you know, try going into a a Washington D C bar versus a bar in some small town. And you know, spouting off about Trump in progressive bar or spouting out about about a Clinton. Or or Obama in in you know, in the small town bar. I guarantee you you'll get a much friendlier reception in the second case, why do you think that that's the case I feel like like the people in rural areas have better manners and are less judgmental and more accepting which is funny because our our stereotypes of religion, right stereotypes of people who insist on imposing their values on on everyone. But instead what we seem to have as like progressivism is you know, the religion that exists today. That's all about telling everybody how to live their lives. And and there's some really interesting theories that that that like the same personality types that would have been drawn, for example to extreme religious views a couple of generations ago are being drawn to to progressivism now than even though it's like in theory, the left and the progressive in the Democrats that it's in. Inherently actually, a very a very like rightest movement in the sense of like wanting to control everything in a in a centralized way. And like, yeah. In like, let me tell you, what's right and wrong. Like, let me tell you how to how to leave your life. Channeling the something like, hey, there is a service ater like figure in empowering when you're extremely win. Win was rise of our forties. You know, being flanked didn't work on about who's the most light. But standing up for for values in violated. Those is there any sorts of lever remark. Outer sponsor, I definitely have some sympathy. And I think that that Trump has been pro executive power and has been in like an is more accident more fascist like way than most of our leaders. And that's a that's a bad thing. But like, ultimately, I think that that the greatest problem is is tribalism and not Trump that like the way that the Americans are sneering at each other based on their political party judging each other telling to their how to live their lives and at our like our discourse his broken down that. Like people get heckled out of speaking on topics that like are not anywhere near bad enough that you should not be allowed to speak to me all of those things are just like so much more important and real and likely than like Trump becoming another Hitler that. I just to me those are rhetorical devices that are used to try to like inflame, the differences and the panic that are the real problem. But it is true that like fascists come to power. And when they come to power, it looks a lot like Trump and waterways like there are real similarities, and I'm glad that people are worried, but I think it's really important that what they the things they do with that worry like how would this like all grant, you your theory? But this is a big risk, and I support things like limitations on the executive to prevent that. Like how about you give credence hill? My theory that the problem is actually like people saying you can't vote for that person. Or like. Like the most controversial thing. Peter Thiel ever did was support somebody who almost half the country voted for like that is ridiculous. Like that. Is that is wrong. So how that you entertain my theory that the polarization, and the you're not allowed to have certain opinions that that's the problem. And let's also have the things that we do to to counteract, you know, this fascism ba- things that don't drive us farther apart. Why do you think this cer- Trump, wasn't wise, it increased in what you do to mitigate in your view? I'm not sure why polarization has has increased and I would say that. My response would almost be that what you need is not an explanation of why we become more like tribal zero zero-sum. But in explanation of why we weren't because I think the kind of the liberal order liberal on the fence of of tolerance and diversity and free speech is relatively recent, and you know, limited to certain areas and a recent like past few hundred years of history. And so it's like really sad that it seems to be breaking down and going away. But maybe we shouldn't have been surprised. Maybe we should be studying like, okay, what was it that enabled it to thrive? And one thing that I think is really relevant is when a group of people as producing value when things are positive sum it's much easier to get along and much easier to like like, okay, I have these principles, and I'm not always going to do. The thing that's best for me. Selfishly uninformed these principles and pay the price. And when things are going great that's easier to do. But we are in a stage of declining power for America of slowing economic growth. Right. There's been this stagnation of the median compensation for like forty or fifty years, you know, where most of the gains have for variety of complicated reasons, not been going to the average person. And it's natural that, you know, people turn on each other. When times are tough, you know, and it's unfortunate because it only it only makes things worse. But I think it's very natural. But this is a topic that like, I I don't feel I have great expertise on how to restore the liberal order. But I think it's it's kind of one of the key questions of today. And I'm really glad that like post Trump. They're really smart people on you know, all across the political spectrum now who are kind of thinking about this and working on. On it. And I think it's real important. Gra folks, like dealer, others who voted to change the system from from the outside. What do you think they thought success look like for four years in like would've the your metrics or indicators that what was exacerbated are? We are on their view your. You know, it's it's so hard to get to get a straight answer from the world about like weather, not Trump has succeeded because people on both sides are are so biased. I would say things are. I don't know. I think that things are pretty good. But I do have to worry a little bit about the picking up pennies in front of a steamroller that, you know, by the numbers, I think things are pretty good. But if we actually if there's a ten percent chance of a fascist regime happening that, you know, the current numbers are not worth it. But it's so hard to know. Like do we have a zero percent? A ten percent of a fifty percent chance that you know, fifteen years from now, there's a there's a president for life Trump. I mean to me, I think it's you know, more like one percent. But I, you know, I'm not an expert on this. I think that what success would have looked like would have been like more extreme changes like executive orders that for example, here's one. So like change would have looked like either genuine Neal or Blasi being Commissioner of the FDA and that didn't happen. Where were more risks renovation like systemic change to cut away the red tape like using executive orders like as a scalpel to be like, okay? You know, why do we have a department of education? Like, why do we have a department of energy, you know, just cutting like big swath of the stuff we're doing? We don't need to do in that really hasn't been what Trump's done largely because interests, or so entrenched debt. We know. It's it's hard to tell how much he like understand that. That's that's what what we need or wants to do the right thing. I'm not sure about that. But definitely like even if he wanted to and even he saw how important it was. I think that he could have changed the system a lot more than he did. But that it is much harder than people think like the president has so much less power. That people think a mean he has meaningful power like pointing supreme court justices and executive orders like it is meaningful. Power. But it's like to such a small number of, you know, the words of regulations that are passed in the overall number of people who is running the government. It's it's tiny. You know, there's there's a way in which they're the president is much more of a of a figurehead like enough power that we can see them as being leader. But you know, nobody leads really leads like a three hundred million person country or a multi trillion dollar budget is he's often described as very reactive very reactive Brazil with no agenda of his own other than his own serve successor, Iran building. Do you think you personally, you get the that is accurate that is inaccurate Clara fair? And if so are the two best is in is in to do something like, hey pudding, Jamal ios at yet yet. I mean, I think he is. He's clearly somebody who who cares. A lot about being respected about his image. And how he's being perceived, but I kind of wonder if if all the attention paid to to Trump in the office of the president is like, you know, are are we engaging in proper analysis of the system and how to change it or we kind of like sucked in by the by the the spectacle, you know, and being hooked by the media who wants our eyeballs in once our clicks. I feel like Trump is like I don't know is is he the if the leader that we need or that we deserve. Like, he's clearly you've clearly person vary. Very instinct with a click bait days in which we live. So I don't know if that's that's good or bad. It's certainly very natural. But I feel like what I want us to figure out how we can live in like less click Beatty days and have like better. Systems that actually find truth in and promote policies that benefit people. So, you know, props to Trump for kind of riding the waves of the times. But I feel like I want to change the times is interesting only go back to our physically back onto serve your arguments against her for the limitations of markets in zone might say it, is example capitalism. Run amok you score. Fine. You billionaires supposed to billionaires click bait culture use some of the responses that wrongly can we serve knowledge and describe the strongest arguments against markets in all things would be honest Ford might be calm, Brian up more socio, cultural war from fairness or Justice perspective. Yeah. I mean, I think that we shouldn't kind of deify markets that you know, that markets are are mechanisms or classes have mechanisms. And their mechanisms which were really well like they they respect skin in the game. They respect a local knowledge discovering prices over time. There's like a lot of great things about them a lot of ways in which they promote equality, but they're they're still, you know, they're just mechanisms and they have their their imperfections markets are not good at pricing. What they can't measure. They're not good at by saying the things that aren't involved in transactions in pricing extra nowadays. You know it. It's not clear within a market how to enforce the rules of that market. So I think that that that markets are certainly are certainly not perfect. And you know, one thing that I like about the crypto world is that there's more people thinking about mechanisms and thinking about mechanisms in an environment of of imperfect trust that I think that there's this naive tendency in the physical world that we think about our political mechanism. Gms will somehow the operated by angels. And you know, when you're building a crypto network. You know, however, good you think the average person is like, however, comfortable you'd be like being cold in the middle of the night and coming to farm being like helped give me shelter and being like, yeah. We'll take care of me that like if you want to crypto network like somewhere out there on the internet. There is like a really smart hacker who is happy to like try to take resources from you. And that you have to design a system that can withstand that. And I think that that's like that's more accurate. And that's that's good thinking in that, you know, it's really exciting people develop mechanisms which require less trust than are harder to take advantage of that we need more of that in our politics instead of just being romantic about our systems. What about the view of market stats on Mark's viewers? Nearly critique view of like the markets served store. We view people see them as input, sir. You don't overly rational about certain things. Buick knowledge or unpack that you. And it was. I definitely think it's true that markets make us look at other people in terms of inputs outputs in what they can give us. And I think that that's a good thing that again, there's this naive belief from back in the day when we lived in a tribe of a hundred and fifty people, and we were able to relate to everyone as a person, and and, you know, open our hearts to them and help them out. You know, just because they were a person we'd grown up with a new for thirty years of our life, and like that works, but that doesn't scale like open just doing things for people to be nice or looking at people as individuals doesn't scale like I cannot look at a billion people as individuals. Nobody can you know, I can't even look at at the, you know, the ten million people live in this metro area as individuals. And when we're when we're coordinating a number of people waiting to look. Get them in know based on only those few characteristics that that most matter to that coordinated interaction we need to strip away all that uniqueness and all that variability because you know, it doesn't matter for the purpose of coordinating ten million people. And I think that that's the good thing. And then there's always gonna be fighting about like what is the proper scope for that? Which things we take into account with the rules. Are you know, because first off none of us know was the best rules are none of us know, what the best mechanisms are, of course, gonna disagree and different mechanisms like in often subtle ways benefit at an harm, a different people in different groups, and so people fighting about which mechanism. We should have, you know, often just a proxy war for their own interests. I think that today that the kind of voter fraud is a great example of that where people act like it's about like, do are you letting people vote like are you trying to disenfranchise people in? On on on both sides. And really, it's just it's just rational self interest that the Democrats and the Republicans are each tending to favour changes to voter registration changes to voter ID checks that in their specific regions benefit their political party that like broadly fits most of the things that they advocate for and that, you know, setting. It's about enfranchisement is just is just a smokescreen those this quote in China find it families, communist, democrat state level, Republican fed level, libertarian Geezer unpack that idea. Yeah. Absolutely. The the degree to which different levels of freedom and different coordination system. Work depends on scale. And this is something that as computer scientists like we should understand is at the ideal algorithm forgiven situation depends on scale something that works at one scale may totally fail at another scale. And yet people somehow throw this out. When it comes to politics, but you know, within your family, you can be more communist, you you share resources because you're close to each other you care about each other. You're you're you're along for for the long term, and you've Allieu each other. As you go up like your town can be governed innocent what tribe like fashion like by consensus. Right. If you can actually go to town hall when there's a meeting at like have your voice on your issue or go and talk to the mayor talk to talk to the mayor that kind of tribal consensus based system works with three hundred million people, it does not work. And so as you go to layers of coordinating, more and more individuals. I think you need to eat you need to take more of an abstract systems approach endangered about the incentives in the mechanism design rather than like trusting on on people just like knowing each other in carrying about what's best for each other. I mean, there's something similar here in the question of repeated interactions where if you're just gonna interact with someone once you should. Trust them way way, less than if you're gonna erect with them a thousand times like those are two different systems where people are gonna choose different things in different mechanisms work. And I think the same is true for scale. Silicon valley. You you've been here for decades, plus more. S yet twenty four years how we're talking about the rise of traumas, and some people say to sort of you you've been smoothly things, you can't save other reasons as well. How's it changed? The time you've been here at how do you sort of look at the future or whether you're release fruits like economic position, the world's cultural position, she wait a little bit you Siebel for yet. I mean, I think the Silicon Valley has definitely aged. And it's you know, it's gone from a place where people are all about like doing the new thing to to a place that has a lot more conformity and still has a ton of innovation in vitality. You know, but but clearly not to the same Ray that it did before. And I think it's really good that there are more startup hubs forming around the world, you know, I think that's really important. It clearly their incredible economies of scale in having attack hub because otherwise saw combat. Early. You know would not have existed in we're not like persisted despite the insane housing costs. But ultimately like I wanna see different hubs in different areas different cultures like all existing. That's that's just a better world. I do think that there's something really strange about the kind of political sameness in Silicon Valley. Like, why why is it in the place that has kind of the most openness to new things in these other areas of technology that that people are still, you know, following the same old political parties, and in there, I think it may just be the that in any place, that's like wealthy and educated tends to be in the US like mainly democrat in Silicon Valley is no different in that way. I do think that there, you know, peer te'o kind of exemplifies something very different in nonconformist about Silicon Valley where even if if. Silicon Valley is trend following in like, okay, it's the rich metropolitan area. It is mostly Democrats. The minority will like the one percent. Most open minded people in Silicon Valley. Like the one percent most politically innovative people are like way more innovative and open minded than almost anywhere else. So even if there is this like broad culture of conformity, and you know, it's a place where like you can't you work at big tech company. You can't just have Trump bumper sticker. Like, it's it's not. Okay. But yet you still have this like minority of people who is willing to like reexamine things from first principles and think about things from the perspective of like can't new solution. Be built like Ken human ingenuity solve this problem. I mean, Larry page gave a talk where he said, hey, we need experimental zones of governance. You know, you've got like Tim Draper trying to split up California. Which is you know. Literally just common sense to make jurisdiction work better. Like have more smaller jurisdictions. So I think that the the minority of people here, you know, Ilan moss trying to save the human race by making us a a multi homed a species is not vulnerable to one data center. Crashing. I think that the best people here are still extremely good. But I also think that that culture is kind of is expanding to be and more places. And that's like such a good thing. So important, right? Like how about we have innovation be like multi homed, you know, on earth. So that it can't just be taken out by one asteroid in. So that like different types of people who wouldn't live in Silicon Valley can can do it may not think that's something. That's a real problem as their entire classes of people who are like excluded from becoming tech innovators because. You know, they didn't wanna live in a really expensive metropolitan area. You know, maybe you wanna live more cheaply, maybe want to have a large family man, you wanna live in nature and have room to run around. And I think it's really important that that those people be able to come technologists to edition. We've been talking about, you know, I guess maybe determined use intolerance is relates either, politically or cryptic. News. I'm C ubique theory cloth. Maximus on all sides. Would you you come from to family yourself that you have strong principles win is it would serve a framework for to what extent you should bite. Fight for principals verse like Elliot and others for thinking about different principles you'll sess or meted for people to engage with people on other principals while also level the while also fighting for for your it's a real interesting question. I think. A lot of it's about the actual diversity like if you actually value diversity in they sense like when people believe different things like that is a value because then I can look at these two different perspectives, and maybe create a model that includes both of them or like these people will go out and try different things. And you know, we're more likely to find something that works. I think that having that value in seeing like descent or someone someone doing things differently as as like a good and not a bad is really important, and then like trying to structure things so that different people can try different things. And like, we don't insist on everything being done the same way. You know? I think that that's that's incredibly incredibly important. Like, you know, you live your way, I'll live my way, and you know, being really really stingy with the cases where we say oh your lifestyle like threatens me like it's always attempts. To try to control the people by doing that. And it's just it's so dangerous. Like, there are cases, you know, if if you invent a bio weapon that can kill everyone on earth like that affects may and I support like limitations on freedom. If those limitations will actually reduce the chance that somebody can do that. But I think the vast majority of cases where we say I mean, even like nuclear weapons like somebody one person making a nuke is not any kind of systemic threat. I think, you know, let alone if you get down to like microaggressions are like somebody will speak about me, mainly in like that effects me to such a degree that I should weigh harm them or shun them or like make laws against them. So I think that having that kind of humility of like, yeah, I I have a strong opinion on how I wanna live. But that doesn't mean that I know how you should live and just trying to design systems where like each person can have what they want. There's computer science he nature to it. Right. It's like if like designing a good ape. Like, what is the border between this system and the other systems like where the lines were things that I'm responsible for? I guess I wanna see society much more like modular rise in component is in like broken apart into different libraries with clear API's and not have this like morass of spaghetti code. That is our legal system. Just like can be about anything like you have to get you know, you live in this one area. And then you have like this entire stack of laws all applies to you in like, yeah. Maybe you can get a little bit of difference by moving from one state to another. But mostly you just have the same OS. You know, that's not that's not an efficient of practical way to to build the world. Was issued cube Ceasar the rise. Bitcoin also followed the rise of of Austrian economics or given your background debate. Unpack the difference economically between maybe raw Martin, father schools are sure. So like on the Austrian economic side yet hasn't really surprising because Austrian economics is is fairly old. But it's it's one of these things where there's been a resurgence of interest in it because of the internet, and it is really interesting to say the like bitcoin is sound money and having this kind of ideological basis in like a basis that I think is is kind of is like partly true in partly false. Like, I think inflation is is bad. Inflation is stealing from people like the central Bank. Printing money is a bad thing. But I don't think that like all business cycles, for example, are caused by inflation or that like inflation depending on how the money is injected will affect how. How much it creates like Mel investment across different sectors. But it's I dunno. I guess kind of like the paleo diet. There's something about people like seeing like it's good to do things in new ways. But sometimes you do things in new ways, they might like work at first. But then like, it might be better the new way of doing things might be better. But yet more vulnerable to going bad over time, for example, like any situation race like, oh, the natural thing that happens if you and I don't trust each other might be not the best outcome. But if we can appoint this other person to be like a neutral arbitrator, then you can get the best outcome, and that might even like work for a little while. But eventually, you know, somebody's gonna take that neutral arbitrator position for their own advantage. And so even though you've made a system that looks better. It's actually like more vulnerable to being taken advantage of. I think that that's the case with with with Fiat money. Like, yeah. In navy that with the right central bankers. Certain situations. Like, the great depression that there are ways manipulating the money supply. You can do with FIA end that are good for the economy. But creating that system is a system where people can steal tons of resources by taking the privilege physicians to the net system in. So then after decades of that happening, we realize, hey, wait, a second trusted third parties were security holes. Let's make a new system that maybe doesn't have the flexibility of changing the money supply. But at least it's not vulnerable to being taken over in that way. So yeah, I think that there's a a. A close relation. That's valuable like paleo. You know? Okay. Let's eat in this old way. You know? Maybe it doesn't it's not as good in some ways. But eating the new way leads to us being taken advantage of by people making high sugar, high fat, high salt things that like get us addicted and mess up our body. So let's eat in this old simpler way, it's actually better. Some Austrians goes so far as to critique your other for saying, he's more closer to Qian's than people thought that he believed that government should step in exempt instead of by senators or consumption by the fed monetary policy are used to that critique or out to respond to we had the great thing about the modern crypto world is we're gonna get to see different systems with different types of inflation compete. I guess I think that there's good theoretical. And empirical evidence that intervening in the money supply can help the economy like. And that said trusted third parties or security holes. And if you give a group the powered intervene in the economy, they're probably mostly can do it poorly. So I'm sort of, you know, sympathetic to to my grandfather's view in theory. But I think to the Austrian view in practice. Duvan? Definitely who. Only a deer. Another bitcoin was so disruptive to governments. Wouldn't they be along? It works was I'm thinking about how response big wanted. Whether bitcoin is truly. It's a really good question because there are some people who ideologically in favor of bitcoin, and they think that, you know, like, the sovereign individual predicted that by taking away the power of the government to inflate, and perhaps in a, you know, anonymous, we cash system, reducing the power the government attacks will make the government weaker and be an existential threat to them. And you know, I I don't see that is very credible. Even if you take certain areas out of control, and that's a good thing. There are still plenty of other areas that they can use to tax, and you know, it's fascinating like the bitcoin. It's so weird to me having been into e cash for twenty years and expecting that we'd have like belying, did, you know, anonymous cash systems to have like the entire history of transactions public is. You know, is is like deputy in there. Some people say that governments actually kind of like bitcoin for that reason that there. Able to trace more effectively I think that will change in the future as we get better anonymous technology, there's also the question of like our government's rational actors that will respond accurately to defend themselves. And you know, I think that they're that they're not that like you shouldn't underestimate their power and that they may act in their self interest. But that you know, in the same way that government a modern government is not a machine for like passing affective Waugh's to the benefit everyone. You know, it's also not a machine for taking effective regulatory actions that protect itself. And so I think that they're totally is of space for making new technologies take power away from the state like bitcoin, and that they don't necessarily act to ban because the regulators act for variety of like complex public choice reasons having with consistency and end perception and not just in their own self interest. I mean, look at the underfunding of the IRS today. No rational like government as. Business in would like underfund. It's accounts receivable department the way that our government does what's what's view of how the world works that you've changed in the last year or few years, maybe politically, which is not how people work I would say that as I mentioned before over my life. I've definitely come to see politics and governance as much more like engineering than philosophy than being things where it's not you can't derive from first principles the best way to do things that we're we should experiment in seeing practice. I would say that something that's changed more recently in kind of the age of polarization, and and and Trump is, you know, I think that I'm. Sort of like pessimistically like less focused on libertarian values. Because I feel like we are like address -ociety losing something even more basic that the the liberal order of of all being like, hey, we're in this together. We have these shared values like you're allowed to put forth different. Opinions debate is a good thing. Like, those are things that you know, twenty years ago, I took for granted. And assume that are k now we should just have we should have even more freedom. And now, I see that like I was wrong to take those things for granted that, you know, even this like lesser degree of cooperation is not just something you can take for granted nestling the white. We're losing as science. And so, you know, maybe the most important thing is not freedom, but is coordination, and you know, how you protect coordination from being taken. Vantage of by third parties, and like how does it evolve over time to stay cooperating? And then like how does that intersect with changing technology like what are the new ways that we can cooperate or what are the ways in which we're getting worse at cooperating if if you're not was machinery of freedom years elite Sheree of coordination. And. Yeah. And what is what is crypto not a fascinating, new machinery for coordinating? So in closing, you talk a little bit about the, adaptability. You know, how you spe- Lee this cycle, which people need to is much much quicker in exponentially. So what does it mean for it, including how your your kids lines will be different in their education? Maybe having experienced government over Manser repeat a picture. How you expect your your? Let's be different the your. If think the my kids will grow up in a world where there's a things are even less, natural and intuitive. And where there's even more change unless stability, I think that they will like strangely grope in a world where having old fashioned values in old fashioned knowledge is actually a benefit where in some ways. I think that like we've actually gone backwards to wear like the values that we're teaching our kids or the. Technology that were training them on or exposing them to the food that we're giving them is actually like worse for them. And that hasn't been true for most of human history. There were certainly a specific generations where things got worse, you know. But I think in general you wanted to be kind of like with the times or head of the times. And I think that that kids who are raised on, you know, the technology of the the seventies were like the diet of the eighteen seventies or the educational systems of a hundred years ago will actually be in better shape than people who use the default technologies in screens connections and food of today. You know, whereas I think I benefited from growing up on on getting used those early computers. You know, I think that kids are using today's computers versus the ones that I had when I was a kid. It's actually like worse for you. It's more like. Junk food than like, something better. And that's strange. But if you like history don't mind being old fashioned. It's also opportunity also close close the people who were fascinated by our conversation today. More learn more about you in come in we're tour, and he any lenna. Yeah. Most of my writing these days is on Twitter Twitter as Patrice oh, I've also got a book on C sitting out with Joe quirk in a number of essays at a thousand nations dot com. Let thousand nations bloom a group blog uncompetitive governments that I started also after say that done a couple of hundred dollars. So it's this is prevalent. One of my favorites would say thank you so much for gas angry. Yeah. Thanks so much for your your questions. I've really enjoyed it. If you're an entrepreneur, we'd love to hear from you. Please hit us up at village. Global dot BC slash at were catalyst.

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GSMC Social Media News Podcast Episode 161: Sephora, IHOP, Visas

GSMC Social Media News Podcast

37:02 min | 2 years ago

GSMC Social Media News Podcast Episode 161: Sephora, IHOP, Visas

"Let's say you just bought a house. Bad news is you're one step closer to becoming your parents. You'll probably mold along ask if anybody noticed you mow the lawn. Tell people to stay off the lawn. Compare it to your neighbor's lawn and complain about having to mow the lawn again. Good news is, it's easy to bundle home and auto through progressive, and save on your car insurance, which of course, we'll go right into the lawn. Progressive casualty insurance company affiliates and other insurers discount available in all stages situations. Golden State media concepts social media podcast time to hashtag everything. We talk about all the fun crazy stories on social media, Instagram Facebook Twitter to tumbler probably even friendster. Join zij whiz. We explored the quirky of social meets the Golden State media, concept, social media podcast. It's simple. The one that the one. Two two. Hello. And welcome to the G. S NC social media news podcast. Brought to you today by care of the vitamin service that brings personalized vitamins directly to your door for a limited time only. If you go to take care of dot com and enter the promo code social S O. C A L you will receive twenty five percent off of your first order. And we'll be talking more about care of at the first break. So welcome to the GMC social media news podcast, as I said, I am your host, Sarah, and I am happy to be with you on this Monday beginning of a week. Things are so far gone on Cates, the beginning of June. Speaking of a long thing. So I hope that your June is going, well, so far hope your week is going well so far I had a very busy day, but it was busy in a good way, which is always nice. I have crazy allergies right now. So if I sound croaky I apologize. I weeded yesterday and bananas Matic ever since. So I sound like a wheezy obscene phone call lucky. You listeners gonna try to keep my breathing in check during this podcast I will try to only breathe, deeply heavily and annoyingly during commercial breaks. How's that sound all I'll do my best promise? So we have lots of social media news to cover for this episode starting with new developments in the story of singer, Sousa and her experience a few weeks ago, which she tweeted about about her experience in a Sephora in California in Calabasas. She tweeted that. She tweeted this on April thirtieth Ella mayo. Sandy Sephora locations. Six fourteen calabasses called security, to make sure I wasn't stealing. We had a long talk. You've a blessed day, sandy show. She said that she was racially profiled and stopped by security officers at a Sephora store in Calabasas. She actually once worked as kin consultant for Sephora in his a spokesman for Ryota 's Fendi brand, which is sold exclusively at Sephora. Oh my goodness. That's just while she did receive a tweeted apology from Sephora that said, you are part of the Sephora family, and we are committed to ensuring every member of our community feels welcomed and included at our stores riana than whose real name is Robyn Fendi sent a gift card in a handwritten note. To sizzle that read go, buy your Feni Buzek beauty in pieces one love riana, which says than shared on her Instagram story. So in response to this in addition to the respondent response of the apologetic tweet Sephora is closing its store is of closing. Sorry, excuse me, more than four hundred stores on the morning of June, fifth to host inclusion workshops, for all of its employees, according to a statement that was posted on the company's website, Sephora said in the statement that it believes in champion champion championing, all beauty celebrating differences and building a community where diversity is expected the cosmetics giant will take a few hours out to train, it's sixteen thousand employees about the brand's values along with retail stores. The company wide training will also include employees insofar as distribution centers and corporate offices according to retail dive. The move more closely alliance Sephora with its parent company's tagline. We belong to something beautiful, which. Has been in the works for more than a year. The temporary store closures come during a time when consumers are unfortunately becoming increasingly aware and adverse averse to the discrimination, that seems to be happening everywhere, all the time while shopping eating out grabbing a coffee. It's cetera. You'll remember that Starbucks closed last summer. I believe to do. Training for its employees after the police were called for two. Black men, having a business meeting in Starbucks, the, the it's getting out of hand. So it's probably good that more companies are doing more trainings. But it also makes me sad that it has to be done. Yeah, just really kind of breaks my heart a little bit that we have to have this training that we that, that it's necessary. It is necessary though, because the world, of course is not perfect. So let's get that training. Let's, let's get people to treat each other like humans not just jump to conclusions based on Seoul, many different factors anyway. That is the update after the story originally of the individual. Now, they are having Sephora is having diversity training in a previous episode. I mentioned that I hop made a announcement, a teaser announcement that they are changing their name again, and people were less than impressed. So they send out a message on may twenty eighth that they you know last year. Let's let's just backtrack a little bit last year. They briefly changed their name to I hob again. It just sounds like you have a cold or allergies, because of they were, they were doing it to promote the burgers that they were putting out, but people were not impressed. So. Now they as I said they, they tweeted last week. I hop with a small P instead of a capital P, and they say what could the P B find out June third? Well, june. Third is here and. The pancake chain has said it's changing things up with burgers again, but it's going to be naming those new burgers, pancakes. So as to not cause any sort of confusion or backlash I'm already confused. You can't just rename burgers, pancakes and think that we're not going to comment on it. So today, I hop announced three new menu items, and they're all burgers. But with pancake names. One of the new, quote unquote pancakes. The big ihop pancake includes an actual pancake sandwiched between two meat patties. Okay. There are also two steak burgers, the garlic butter pancake, which is topped with smokey bacon. And a bunch of classic fixings, and then the loaded Philly pancake, which has sauteed onions and peppers. Plus lots of melted cheese sauce. K an quote, Brad Haley chief marketing executor is executive. Oh my gosh. I can't talk tonight. Brad Haley chief marketing officer at I hop said, when we launched our new ultimate steak burgers last year. What better way to show the world that we take our burgers as seriously, as we take our pancakes, then my announcing it would be changing our name to, I hob temporarily that was hard for a lot of people to accept. He said since they'd always known. I hop primarily as the breakfast and pancake place. So they took to social media. To tell us often in no uncertain terms to stay in our lane and stick to pancakes, he continued. So we're listening to the internet this year by calling our new steak burgers, pancakes. And so many people asked us why we didn't have a pancake burger last year that we've even added a pancake with a pancake in it. The big ihop pancake burger. Oh man. So you can only imagine the responses that are coming out of this now to be fair. The marketing ploy last year did cause a stir, and you know, it, it did work and you know, news outlets picked it up. It was talked about it was tweeted about it was talked about on other social media, so, yes, but. People still have lots of. Comments because now we know that the P still stands for pancakes, but the pancakes are actually burgers. And it's, it's all very confusing. I don't know. I hope I don't know what to say on this one, I'm not saying you shouldn't have burgers, because, you know, lots of pancake, or lots of breakfast places. Also have other menu items you can still just get breakfast all day. But this whole change in your name, and trying to make it a thing. I guess it does get attention. Because p negative attention is attention. It seems a little strange to me though. So. We'll see how it goes. We'll see what the reactions are. And there may be a follow up on this one as well. Don't know. It is time though, to take our first break of the podcast before we take that break. I do want to talk to you about care of that personalized vitamin delivery service. I mentioned before that I'm having trouble with allergies and asthma, it's cetera. So I have a I have health concerns just like everybody else has health concerns, and I'm always looking for things that will help in turn, you know, whatever it is in terms of my dietary needs. Well, what can I? What can I take that may or may not help x y and z instead of going to the supplement islands staring blankly at the wall of vitamins in front of me? Instead, I went to take care of dot com and took their easy, five minute quiz, it asked me questions about my health goals, attrition goals, things that I'm concerned about, you know, getting proper sleep. Do I think I'm getting proper nutrition? It's cetera. And then it the then the site gave me a personalized recommendation for vitamins, and protein powder to fit the things that I said, were my top health concerns. The great thing is, is you go you take the easy, five. Quiz. They, they give you your, your recommendation you can supplement that recommendation with whatever you want from their catalog. You can go through and see what else they have that might sound like it might be of use to you. And then they ship it right to your door. You can do it all in your pajamas. And then you don't even have to go to the store. It's wonderful and new thing that they are doing now. Is that all of their packaging is composed able, which I think is great. You are concerned with your own health now you can, and you're, you're working to take care of it. Now you can do your part to take care of the health of the planet, as well by using take care of, and they're compulsively packaging. So if you are interested in trying this service, just go to take care of dot com and for a limited time, only when you enter the promo code social se-. Oh, excuse me. S. O. C. I. A. L. You'll receive twenty five percent off of your first order, again, go to take care of dot com and enter the promo code social to get that twenty five percent off. We will go ahead and take that first break of the podcast. When we come back, we'll be talking about stories that are trending today on social media, so stay tuned. You're listening to the GMC social media news podcast and I will be right back. Charlie loves cherry. So he fills his roster with wild cherry cherry cola and tops it off cherry lime linemate. It's the cherry on Charlie's day mix the polar pop or frostier that works for you just seventy nine cents each at circle k limited time only at participating locations. Always on the go, but the day just will be more without your Hollywood Phipps foot. Golden State media concepts under ten bud cast take care of that. And all inclusive. Look of pop culture. Welcome back to the GMC social media news podcast before the break. We were talking about Sephora, and I hop in the news for very different reasons, although maybe reasons that make you roll your eyes for again. Very different reasons. We're gonna we're gonna move to some different types of social media news things that are trending for instance today, the new the, the jeopardy. The jeopardy winning streak has. And then Jim holds hours jeopardy winning streak ended in a final round thriller, leaving him just shy of former champion Ken Jennings, two point five million dollar record. So of course you know, we knew the streak had to come to an end. At some point people were waiting to see if he would make that make or break that two point five million record. He lost after winning thirty two consecutive games leaving him in second place for these shows all time highest winners of the amount of money that they've one word of this shocking defeat. Started spreading on Sunday when a leaked clip from the episode circulated on social media. The, the episode actually aired today Monday, but the, the, the, the clip was leaked yesterday on Sunday in a surprising twist holes, our who often bludgeoned, his opponents by doubling and even tripling their totals lost by more than twenty two thousand dollars even though he responded correctly, in final jeopardy, according to a clip obtained by NBC news. Challenger Emma Becher a librarian at the university of Chicago dethroned, the Las Vegas, pro sports, gambler who many expected to smash that, that record of two point five million. Dollars that was set by Ken Jennings over seventy four games in two thousand and four. Wholesaler is quoted as saying, I lost to a really top level competitor. He played a perfect game. And that was what it took to beat me. Bet your lead going into the final round with twenty six thousand six hundred dollars wholesaler had twenty three thousand four hundred. According to the video clip. The final clue read the line, a great reckoning in a little room in as you like it is usually taken to refer to this author's premature death. All three contestants. Got the correct answer. Sixteenth century English playwright Christopher Marlowe. But this time it was Becher who went big wagering twenty thousand two hundred and one dollars bringing her final total to forty six thousand eight hundred and one holds our bet an uncharacteristically small amount just one thousand three hundred ninety nine dollars. He must not have been hugely confident of his answer. So he finished with twenty four thousand seven hundred ninety nine dollars for the game and was awarded two thousand dollars for. Coming in second place, which brought his total purse to two million four hundred sixty four thousand two hundred and sixteen dollars. Obviously, the crowd was stunned. Even Alex trebek's seemed a little taken back. Saying, oh gosh. What a game. Oh my gosh. Holds our apparently took the loss graciously walked over to Becher and gave her a high five, and he, but he's definitely been a, a pop culture phenomenon a social media phenomenon in recent weeks for his his strategy in the game. So pretty amazing, and it's, it's gotta be it's gotta be interesting to be the person who, who beats the person that's that's been on that huge streak. He did James hotel or did did tweet excuse me. My kid cried about the possibility of her dad losing. So I told her we can have a party the day after it, and have it evidently happens. Now. She cries when I win. That's very cute. His daughter is four. So that is very sweet. I hope they have a wonderful celebration. And a streak comes to an end. Speaking of parenting, pink posted a video on her Instagram of her at her daughter, willows eighth birthday doing a little acrobatic flip they, I don't even know what you'd call it but a little acrobatic move. She posted a video, and her quote said, would mom embarrasses you at your own birthday party? Thanks at TM p t s academy sorry for the best birthday party ever. And thanks Instagram for knowing exactly, what leggings I needed to buy. So apparently willow seemed slightly embarrassed by her mom's videoing that move or maybe doing that move. I don't know. Her mom pink did say that willow seem slightly mortified, but the posted record up eight hundred thousand. Likes. Of course, she also posted a tribute to willow on her eighth birthday with several baby photos that are very, very sweet and dad Carey Hart also posted a sweet post about his daughters eighth birthday. So that's lovely. I always like. I just always like those sweet moments in families, even if they are, you know, obviously, there's some thought behind what, what celebrities share on social media, but. I do. I do. Like those sweet moments and admitting that, you know, you've just embarrassed your kid. Well, that's got to be inevitable. When your parents are Fave are famous, right. I'm, I'm gonna guess yes, it's got to be inevitable in some sadder news for social media. It was announced today. That actor Paul Darryl has passed away. If you don't know who that is he died at seventy eight. He is best known for his role as care Avon in the scifi BBC BBC series. Blake's seven he died following a short illness. Now, if you've never heard of Blake seven, you probably aren't alone. It's kind of man, if it weren't for Blake's seven there wouldn't be a lot of scifi shows it was in the seventies it. Very I've only seen parts of it. My husband has watched the entire thing. He remembered watching it as a kid, he founded again as an adult he loves it. And it's, it's just this, this really great classic BBC scifi show, kind, the precursor of doctor who in fact at one point, there was talk of there being a doctor who Blake's seven crossover. I don't know if that was ever really supposed to happen or if it was just rumored. But well he was known for his role on Blake seven. He also appeared in more than two hundred television shows including doctor, who the Saint z cars, Emmerdale. Holy, holy oaks and little Britain. So he did die at the age of seventy eight he, oh, he was married to actress, Janet Lees price them. They were together for forty eight years. Before she died in twenty twelve. So there've been lots of tributes to Daryl on social media today as people are tweeting their thoughts their memories, their, you know, their reactions, etc. People were reacting of course, to a lot, excuse me. A lot of comments on Blake seven how much that show meant to them, how much his character meant them or or their reactions to his death. So. As always, there's many celebrity deaths during a year. And it's, it's, it's always it's always sad. Whenever a new one is announced, so we are thinking of Paul, darrow's friends and family today as they remember him as they celebrate his life and warn his passing. And maybe this will mean that Blake seven is going to get a, a resurgence of people being interested in it because it definitely was I- Connick for its time. Very dated went to fine because it was it was it was done in the seventies. So it should be very, very dated. That's just all there's all there is to it. One more story of trending news in that is, there is a photo of Steph curry, and Klay Thompson sitting on the bench that looks Photoshop. It looks like. It looks like Klay Thompson is somewhat normal size. And they took the picture of Steph curry, and just shrunk it by several percentages. Because it's hilarious. It does look Photoshop I mean I realize there's a height difference between them, but this picture is just ridiculous. It's hilarity if you haven't seen it, you should definitely Google it and look at it because it, it just Thompson is towering over this tiny curry, and it really does look fake. But it turns out that all it is it's not Photoshop Klay Thompson, just happens to be sitting on a very tall cushion. That's what makes him look even bigger. There's already a height difference between the two. And then when he sits on this, very tall cushion, it makes for an extremely funny and ridiculous picture. If you are following basketball at all, then, you know, that the Golden State Warriors are in the NBA finals with the Toronto Raptors after. Last night's game. They are now tied one to one the, the warriors won last night, a hundred nine to one zero four over the raptors and they are now headed back to California for the next game in the series. But this picture just made me giggle. A little bit in apparently, it was creating reactions from all around the internet and social media, it is time for our second break of the podcast. When we come back, we will be talking about some news involving social media and visas, so stay tuned. You're listening to the GMC social media news podcast and I'll be right back, Charlie loves cherry. So he fills his roster with wild cherry cherry cola and tops it off the cherry linemate. It's the cherry on Charlie's day, Knicks, the polar pop or fraudster that works for you just seventy nine cents each at circle k limited time only dissipating. We'll patients. This is a special announcement for men with ADD local medical clinic is offering free. Of a breakthrough eighty medication to the I seventy five men who call now. This offer is to spread awareness about a treatment that's ninety eight percent effective even for men who can't take prescription eating medications you'll receive a personalized custom blend of the latest FDA approved medications formulated to treat sexual performance problems caused by diabetes, cardiovascular problems, low testosterone or depression. Your appointment will be at a private and professional medical office with a doctor representing a physician network that has helped over fifty thousand men regain their performance in just one office. Visit if you thought your symptoms were untreatable don't miss this opportunity to get a free dose of a highly effective rapid acting medication. This offer is limited to the next seventy five men who call you must act now to reserve your free dose of this breakthrough treatment that's eight hundred nine four seven thirty three hundred eight hundred nine four seven thirty three hundred eight hundred nine four seven three three zero zero. Tired of searching, the vast jungle of podcasts. Nell, listen close. And here this out she there's a podcast network that covers just about everything that you've been searching, the Golden State media concepts podcast network is here, nothing less than a podcast bliss with endless hours of podcast covered from news, sports, music, fashion, looking entertainment, fantasy football and so much more. So stop blurted around and go straight out to the Golden State media concepts podcast network, guaranteed to fill that podcast is whatever it may be. Visit us at WWW dot GS. Mc podcast dot com. Follow us on Facebook and Twitter and download us on a tunes soundcloud, and Google play. Welcome back to the G, M, C social media news podcast. We have talked about Sephora. We've talked about hop. We've talked about some of the things that are trending on social media today, and now I want to turn to a story about instead of social media news. It's snooze about social media makes sense rather than news. That is trending on social media. This is news that is about social media, and this comes from the New York Times, that has reported that the US is requiring social media information for from visa applications. This is a New York Times article from yesterday by Sandra e arsia who states visa applicants to the United States are required to submit any information about social media accounts. They have used in the past five years under a State Department policy that started on Friday, such account information would give the government access to photos locations dates of birth dates of milestones and other personal data commonly shared on social media. There is a quote from State Department in a statement that was issued saying we already request certain contact information travel history. Family member information, and previous address from all these applicants we are constantly working to find mechanisms to improve our screening process to protect US, citizens while supporting legitimate travel to the United States. In March of twenty seventeen President Trump asked secretary of state, the attorney general the secretary of homeland security, and the director of national intelligence to put an effect a uniform baseline for screening and vetting standards and procedures. This is according to a memo published in the Federal Register so requiring information about the social media accounts visa applicants applicants was part of that. And the move represents a step up from my September twenty seventeen measure in which the homeland security department proposed an acted a regulation, calling for the surveillance of social media. Use of all immigrants, including naturalized citizens during the Obama administration, the State Department began to ask applicants to voluntarily submit their social media information. According to a Laura Mukherjee director of the immigrants rights clinic at Columbia law school, who said she said, on Sunday of this latest development. This seems to be part and parcel of the same effort to have an extraordinarily broad surveillance of citizens and noncitizens, given the scope of the surveillance on efforts, it is hard to find a rational basis for the broad surveillance, the department of state and the department of homeland security have been doing for almost two years. The added requirement could dissuade visa applicants who may see it as a psychological barrier to enter the United States. So you can only imagine what kind of information that we, you could get from this, because our social media accounts linka to places they link us to people. They link us to, you know our associations. I mean, you think of it as, as your friends list, but I've got people on my Facebook account that I've never even met, they're just friends of friends, and it's interesting how those connections happen. But you can only imagine the amount of information that could be gleaned from social media accounts. It's, it's, it's an interesting development, and people are concerned, they're concerned that this kind of requirement will result in suspicion of surveillance of travelers and their networks of friends, families and business. Associates also that the government that there was a dish in that the government has failed to explain how it would use this information. The same quote goes on further. The government has been unable to prove that social media can provide reliable indications that identify a security threat in the absence of any such indicators what we've seen domestically and abroad is government. Officials penalizing people speech religious affiliation and other conduct. So I'm curious what you might think of this development. It's definitely got people concerned. It definitely is a different sort of I guess I just never even thought about. Filling out an education and giving my social media accounts on that just I don't even know. I guess I don't travel a lot, but hadn't even occurred to me that, that would be a thing. And yes, you can get a lot of information from social media, but you can also get a lot of false information from social media. I mean, we're always talking about how social media does not present the true picture of a person and their lives. So I don't know. It's, it's, it's a slippery slope. I think also. A slippery slope. That could definitely lead to not always complete. If sometimes incorrect, information about people, so yeah, the world has become much, much smaller. It has become in many ways. More. I want to say more open, but that's not exactly what I mean, just the amount of information that you can find out about people that we put the we, we that we voluntarily put out there through our social media. It's, it's still new enough that were still thinking through these things trying to figure out what it all means where our privacy rights lie, and is something that's definitely going to be have to be worked out as we can because the internet's not going away social media's not going away. So how are we going to find that balance between what we put online our privacy, it cetera very interesting development. So curious as to what else you've heard about this, what you think about it. Who you know who might be affected by it? It's cetera. If you want to leave us a comment we'd love to hear it coming on our social media. You can comment on the on this episode or wherever you listen to it or you can, especially like in follow us on social media. Like give us a great. Give us a good review. We really appreciate the good reviews. If you could be the awesome really definitely helps us out. So follow us like comment cetera. We would very much appreciate you. Thank you so much. And thank you so much for listening to this episode of the GMC social media news podcast. Please join me again, next time when we find out what's trending in the world. Thanks. You've been listening to the Golden State media concepts social media podcast part of the Golden State media concepts podcast network. You can find this show and others like it at WWW dot Jesus. Mc podcast dot com. Download our podcast on itunes. Stitcher sound clock Google play. Just type it MC to find all the shows from the Golden State media concepts podcast network from movies to music from sports, entertainment, and even we are us. You can also follow some Twitter and on Facebook. Thank you. And we hope you have enjoyed today's program. Bring the whole family over the T mobile think. 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This offer is to spread awareness about a treatment, that's ninety eight percent effective even for men who can't take prescription medications you'll receive a personalized custom blend of the latest FDA approved medications formulated to treat sexual performance problems caused by diabetes cardiovascular problems. Low testosterone or depression. Your appointment will be at a private and professional medical office with a doctor representing a physician network that has helped over fifty thousand men regain their performance in just one office. Visit if you thought your symptoms were untreatable don't miss this opportunity to get a free dose of a highly effective rapid acting medication. This offer is limited to the next seventy five men who call you must act now to reserve your free dose of this breakthrough treatment that's eight hundred nine four seven thirty three hundred eight hundred nine four seven thirty three hundred eight hundred nine four seven three three zero zero.

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