20 Episode results for "Barry Goldwater"

1964, Johnson vs. Goldwater: A Choice, Not An Echo

American Elections: Wicked Game

49:00 min | Last week

1964, Johnson vs. Goldwater: A Choice, Not An Echo

"January second nineteen, fifty three in a congressional office on Capitol Hill in Washington a senator from Minnesota Hubert Humphrey stands nervously outside the office of his colleague Senator from Texas Lyndon Baines Johnson Johnson LBJ as he's known is about to make a big play for a big position, Senate minority leader, and Lbj once humphry support. In a group meeting earlier today, LBJ asked Humphry to back him but Humphrey declined telling LBJ he plans to vote for. Montana. Senator James. Murray. Now Humphries been someone back to Johnson's Office for one on one. As he knocks on the door. Humphry braces himself for what many of LBJ's collies call the Johnson treatment with Lyndon. It's me Hubert. And come on. Now I know we spoke earlier Hubert, but I wanted to talk to you alone in private. As Humphrey Sits Johnson invades his personal space. He slides in close mere inches from humphries face. Now let me tell you something. You're depending on votes. You don't have how many votes do you think you've got for murray thirteen seventeen you'd better check your numbers. That's too much for spread. You don't have those senators to begin with I. Personal Assurance that all your Murray votes are actually going to me in fact, a friend of yours senator hunt the one who was in here with you earlier today. Yes. Lyndon he's going to be voting for Murray to know he's voting for me. You want to quit fooling around people you can't depend on. Now Look I think you're honest about these matters Uber but you turn me down when I ask for your support and that was a foolish mistake. You could have been minority whip. But since he walked me, I took my mansfield instead. Mike Mansfield. A former congressman is a newly elected senator like Senator Murray. He also represents Montana you'll regret your decision who LBJ Is furious with Humphrey. Johnson is a skillful politician and a southerner. Johnson knows that to get anything done in Congress. You'll need a respected mid western liberal like Humphrey on assign. So Johnson changes his tune from the Brash Texan to southern gentleman but at least you told me straight. You didn't out of both sides, your mouth. When this election's over and I'm the Senate leader I want you to come back to me and we'll talk about what we're going to do together. Want to work with you and only you the rest of the bomb throwers are on their own. Bomb throwers was a pejorative name for liberal. Democrats from the North Men LBJ felt were always stirring up trouble after the meeting Johnson politely escorted Humphry out of the room, his lesson in obedience complete. The Democratic Caucus voted later that day and Johnson, won the bid for Senate Minority leader later, Humphrey returned to Johnson's office when he arrived Johnson asked now, what are you liberals really want? LBJ became the leader of the Senate. Democrats under a fortuitous set of circumstances, the nineteen ninety-two elections which put Republican Dwight Eisenhower and the White House also put the Senate. Republicans ahead of the Democrats by one seat, that seat once belonged to Senator Ernest McFarland of Arizona. Democrats previous leader. McFarland had been defeated in his own state by an up and coming Republican a fiery conservative from Phoenix named Barry Goldwater. I'm Lindsey Graham, and this is American elections wicked game. The nineteen sixty four contests proved unconventional from its beginning the political landscape of the early sixties reveal faultlines of discontent that ran deep in both parties and across the United States as a whole. It was also an election marred by tragedy. On November twenty second nineteen, sixty three President John F. Kennedy was killed in Dallas Texas hours. Later, LBJ was sworn in as president of the United States. The spirit of John Kennedy's presidency cast a long shadow over the sixty four presidential election following JFK's assassination. There's an appetite for unity for a sense of shared purpose and as President Lyndon Johnson would lift up the sentiment on the twentieth of January. Nineteen sixty-one. John F. Kennedy told his countrymen. That our national work with be finished in the first thousand days. In the life of this administration. Are Even perhaps in our lifetime on this. But. He said. Let us again. Today in this moment of new resolve. I would say to all my fellow Americans. Let us continue. For LBJ, the road head would be rife with difficulty. The Cold War was in full swing and the civil rights movement had heightened since the Supreme Court decision, Brown versus, board of Education some ten years prior. But to shed the mantle of accidental president to win the election of nineteen, sixty, four LBJ would have to overcome a conservative movement spearheaded by Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater. Just as there was a yearning for social progress on the political left, there is also a yearning for conservatism on the right a yearning to break away from the liberal republicanism of President Eisenhower and move the party in more conservative direction. The country was transforming politically, and for Johnson the dealmaker extraordinaire the clock was ticking at the time he was sworn in the nineteen sixty four election was less than one year away to win the White House John would have to comfort a grieving nation while building political coalition necessary to stop Goldwater. This is episode forty, five, nineteen, sixty, four, goldwater versus Johnson a choice not an echo. The industrial and economic boom immediately following the second world. War. Continued into the nineteen fifties and came with significant social developments. The middle class was growing and Labor had strengthened as organizations like the teamsters in the united auto workers grew. But there were businessmen among the planters and factory owners across the country who had grown dissatisfied with the economic order of the new deal which the Republican President Eisenhower had banded. The many social programs of the day meant higher taxes and workers unionizing meant increased overhead, which meant that business owners had to borrow in greater and greater amounts to expand and stay afloat the only banks that had the resources to issue the necessary loans were on Wall Street in New York, and for this class of business owners. The Economic Order of the day was an encroachment on their freedom to own and operate a business as they saw fit. It was also the growing matter of civil rights for Black Americans. Since the end of the civil war, there had been various phases of racial struggle around the country, the infamous separate but equal doctrine handed down in the eighteen ninety six supreme court case Plessey versus Ferguson had established the legal environment in which state and local governments could segregate their citizens based on race positive developments such as the creation of black technical schools at the end of the nineteenth century and the creation of black business districts like Greenwood and Tulsa Oklahoma were met with serious and often violent resistance. And even though the United States had fought in the Second World War as part of the allied powers and had grown into the richest most powerful country in the world, there was still inequality at home. The GI bill designed to provide benefits for those who served in the war was unevenly enforced leaving black-americans largely without the resources to join the burgeoning American middle class. The violence hadn't stopped either there riots in cities such as Beaumont Texas Detroit Michigan Columbia Tennessee and there were lynchings most famously that of the fourteen year old Emmett till in Mississippi in nineteen fifty five. Black. Americans were largely left behind by the new deal and they can't from the bounty afforded by the second. World War Isaac, Woodard, black veteran himself and survivor of police violence in nineteen forty, six remark Negro veterans that fought in this war. Don't realize that the real battle has just begun in America. By the early nineteen sixties through a long campaign of sit in strikes and boycotts put together by local organizers throughout the country civil rights for Americans of color had grown into a dominant. This push for equality was met with resistance and anger from white conservatives from both parties. In the minds of many conservatives, it was the purview of the states, not the federal government to enforce policies of civil rights and integration. Many conservatives were suspicious to of the tire civil rights movement believing it a Trojan horse for Communism. The Communist Party had intervened and civil rights struggles before leaders such as Dr Martin Luther. King were beginning to speak out against capitalism and in favor of more left wing economic policies. Too, many conservatives the Republican and Democratic leadership had become politically indistinguishable neither seemed appealing many conservatives felt as Bob Gaston President of the Los Angeles County Young Republicans remarked that the difference between a liberal Republican and a Liberal Democrat is the difference between creeping socialism and Galloping Socialism. So, many conservative southern Democrats known as dixiecrats felt disenfranchised and some conservative Republican leaders spotted an opportunity to bring these disaffected Democrats into the Republican fold the radio host. Clarence Pat Manion was one such Republican manion had to organize a campaign ahead of the nineteen sixty presidential contest to unite Americans Conservatives for mansions vision of a conservative movement to be successful though man, you would need to find a leader he did in Arizona Senator Barry Goldwater. It was a speech delivered by Goldwater in May of Nineteen fifty-nine in. South Carolina the caught man's attention in the speech Goldwater spoke against the federal use of arms to enforce Brown versus board of Education and anti segregation ruling decrying crying it as immoral and lawless south of the Mason Dixon Line. The Republican Party was still associated with the policies of reconstruction the post civil war period where the Republican controlled government sought to enfranchise and empower free black Americans but gold wanders forceful words against federal intervention on the issue of segregation offered southerners and alternative to the old guard. Republican. Party of the past. One South Carolinian wrote Goldwater at the Arizona could pass for a great southerner anytime anyplace. MANION was convinced to Barry Goldwater was the man to bring conservatives from both parties together. Goldwater cut the image of an all American man's man. He had a steely look, a sculptor jaw line it served as a pilot during the second world. War, he was a businessman from the southwest and enjoy the outdoors nature photography and flying his own personal airplane. He held the US Constitution in high regard and though he was loyal to the Republican Party, he was nonetheless fiercely independent. He hesitate to speak his mind either in nineteen thirty eight, he had published an open letter in the Phoenix Gazette addressed to then president Franklin Roosevelt titled a fireside Chat. With Mr Roosevelt, it was a scathing critique of the new deal. Goldwater lamented that the president had turned over to the racketeering practices of the ill organize unions the future of the working man witness, the cows they are creating in the eastern cities go water had written of unions witnessed the men thrown out of work, the riots, the bloodshed, and the ill-feeling between Labor and capital, and then decide for yourself if that plan worked, this has been the sentiment of gold waters platform when he ran for Senate in nineteen, fifty two and replace longtime Republican leader Ernest McFarland on the continuation of new deal policies established by FDR goldwater ask Amazon's are you willing to surrender more of Your Liberty Goldwater was also unafraid to speak out against his own party in his second run for Senate in nineteen, fifty eight he called welfare under Eisenhower, a dime store new deal, and he criticized the GOP for only nominally opposing the welfare state while making little real effort to stop its expansion or to curb but he felt was the pernicious influence of unions. Gold Warner's draw was able and he was due to the clarity of his opposition to the liberalism of FDR the moderation of Eisenhower it was laid out clearly in his nineteen sixty book the conscience of a conservative ghost written by L, Brent Bozell and William. F Buckley the book reads man cannot be economically free or even economically efficient. If he is enslaved politically conversely man's political freedom is illusory if he is dependent for his economic needs on the state. Conservatism was an ascendance and if the mission was to put forward a Republican fit for these times, many conservatives believed that Barry Goldwater was the man for the job. It wasn't just manion either there was William rusher publisher for the Conservative magazine National Review Ohio Congressman John Ash Brook and the powerhouse political consultant f Clinton white also known as cliff. These three conservatives knew each other from their days in the young Republicans. Of New York in July nineteen, sixty one Russia had met with white and they discussed merging rushers old young Republican contact list with whites current contacts within the Republican Party together. They officially formed the committee draft Goldwater by early nineteen, sixty three, they had gone public by the end of sixty three. They had grown into a powerful organizing force raising large sums of money and thriving even in the wake of Kennedy's assassination. But the greatest obstacle for the committee to draft Goldwater was ironically goldwater himself. He did not want to run. He was a man who hated being told what to do in nineteen sixty when goldwater delivered introductory remarks for Richard Nixon at the Republican National Convention the crowd had chanted. We want Berry and he had replied well, if you'll shut up, you'll get him goldwater wanted to be left alone after Kennedy's assassination he'd respected JFK. He'd even look forward to the idea of potentially running against him and debating him around the country. Goldwater thinking he and Kennedy would have provided a clear contrast, the bookish modern Democrat from the northeast going up against the brassy seat of his pants cowboy from the southwest. But LBJ was a horse of a different color. Gold water did not want to run against Johnson who he felt would run a dirty salacious campaign. So if his fellow conservatives wanted to Goldwater to run, they would have to convince him. It's December eighth nineteen, sixty three. Men In suits gathered in the living room of Barry Goldwater Washington DC apartment. These men are here to plead their case and convinced him to seek the Republican nomination for the nineteen sixty four presidential election. It's been a long night. There was a time when goldwater would've done it but now he's not so sure. He looks to the men Johnson's got the Democratic nomination tied up fellas. He's got a bag of dirty tricks and have comes down to the two of us. He's going to use them all. Talking lies Innuendo Boys Lyndon Baines Johnson never cleans the crap from his own boots. Norris Cotton Republican from New Hampshire presses the issue. Yeah. But it's a right time Berry Norris. Has Been, three weeks since Kennedy was shot the American people don't want three presidents and fourteen months. I think our causes lost. But in cotton's mind, the stakes couldn't be higher either he convinces goldwater now or the Republican Party is doomed to irrelevance for the foreseeable future. So cotton doesn't take no for an answer you makes a speech. Barron. France was able to pull itself out of the mud after the war it was dig aw Charles de Gaulle had a vision for his country. Berry just like you. Not Vision allowed him to hold out against the Nazis. No let his country pursue its own glory after he pushed them out. France needed to Gaul in an America needs you now. The room falls quiet after a moment goldwater breaks the silence. Well fellows all sleep on it. As the visitor shuffle out to leave one man lingers behind. Denison, kissel lawyer from Arizona one of gold wanders closest friends. Share a bottle of whiskey and after a long silence kitchen attempts to pitch goldwater wartime. Barry I don't think you can back down. But goldwater doesn't respond. Thank him all the college students bear. Lot of young Republicans who are hungry for you to run. Goldwater here's the call of Duty Young Republicans are the future of the Party with strong ideals and youthful vigor and cold water shares their enthusiasm for conservatism despite his reservations about Johnson or about the whole project he does feel a deep loyalty what he would later call an unbreakable bond and he knows the future of the Republican Party hangs on his reply. All Right Dan. I'll do. Goldwater his candidacy in January of nineteen sixty, four press gathered in front of his home in Arizona where he nervously stepped out stood at electron and said, I will not change my beliefs to win votes. Now offer a choice not an echo. You would not be moderate like Eisenhower instead he would offer a conservative alternative to the Democrats lower taxes rolling back the welfare state and more vigilance in the. Cold War. But with only six months before the convention in July ten months before the general election in November and a slew of moderate. Republicans throwing their names into the ring. The goldwater campaign had their work cut out for them. They would have to cut through the political noise beat the moderates. The race was on. 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That's K. E. P. S. dot com slash elections. If the goldwater campaign was to convince the American people of the conservative 'cause it would have to start with beating the moderate. Republicans notable among them was Nelson Rockefeller Rockefeller had run for President before you buy it for the nomination in nineteen sixty after losing the primaries to Nixon. He decided it would be useful to have held elected office before going into the next race. Seeing it as a springboard to the Presidency Rockefeller ran for and won the governorship of New York, his home state. Now he felt he had the political capital and experience he needed to run for the White House. At his core Rockefeller was a liberal Republican an arch billionaire philanthropist he had served in the Eisenhower White House and he was on the opinion that corporations have more responsibilities than just making money saying that we must recognize the social responsibilities of corporations and the corporation must use its ownership of assets to reflect the best interest of the. People. Like the rest of the rockefellers Nelson had commanded his family's immense fortune in pursuit of what he felt was societies betterment. He had bankrolled black colleges throughout the United States bailed out civil rights protesters. Medical Research and training restored and renovated cultural sites around the world and he had used his post with the Eisenhower administration to push for both an expansion of social security and creation of a national health. Service Rockefeller believed in government solutions to societal problems. So for conservatives such goldwater Kafelnikov liberal approach was no different from the Democrats and as good as Communism Rockefeller was precisely the echo a gold water had promised not to. Goldwater supportive limited government caused many moderate and liberal minded Americans to label him as an extremist. But the wound of Kennedy's assassination was still raw LBJ said in his nineteen sixty four state of the Union address. The John Kennedy was a victim of hate was a hate. Some Americans thought conservatives like Goldwater were stoking. Gold waters images an extremist was further solidified what has proposed strategy to deal with communism worldwide became clear in January nineteen, sixty, four ahead of the new. Hampshire primary, the Miami Herald reported from Concord. The goldwater said, he would train supply and be inclined to provide air support for the Cuban exiles who would undertake a second invasion of the island attempting to succeed were JFK's Bay of Pigs, invasion failed. He also made clear the principle of his anticommunist stance America was being undone by weakness within wires NATO crumbling. Why our allies now willing to do business with our enemies, we the reason because we have not had a firm. Foreign Policy America since the Eisenhower Dulles Days, and we're drifting today further and further away from those days of strength that saw US preeminent world. The Concord Monitor ran a headline Goldwater sets goals and social security hit Castro. Immediately goldwater face an onslaught of criticism from the press but he didn't soften his message. He told the press at the beginning of his campaign that if it were militarily advantageous, he would break the treaty between the United States Britain and the Soviet Union banning the testing of nuclear weapons too many goldwater seemed to possess an itchy trigger finger in a loose tongue in equal measure. It was thought that this combination would his campaign recalling that Goldwater had just had surgery done on his foot one supporter told Newsweek that they were glad he had one foot in a cast where he'd have that in his to. Meanwhile, as Goldwater doubled down, Rockefeller trying to overcome his complicated passed in nineteen, sixty two, he had divorced from his first wife to whom he was married for thirty one years. His divorce wasn't the main problem that was that in May of the following year he had married another woman a divorce say with four children whose custody she surrendered to her ex husband the Republican party had predicted that the remarriage would harm his chances in nineteen sixty, four many Americans were suspicious of cereal marriages like one woman who was quoted in life magazine what can we tell our young people about this man's immoral? How many wives did God. Make Adam. The New Hampshire primary was held on March tenth nineteen, sixty four, and it was a mix showing for the goldwater campaign after camping there for weeks goldwater came in second, just barely edging out Rockefeller. Goldwater trail behind Republican powerhouse. Henry. CABOT lodge junior the ambassador to Vietnam and Nixon's running mate in nineteen sixty. It wasn't until the Illinois contest a month later the. Goldwater had his first strong electoral finish taking first place with sixty two percent of the vote from their the primary contest went back and forth because Goldwater and watch. Then came the Oregon primary in May. It was the first blow in a one two punch to the moderate early polls favored lodge placing him as high as fifty percent leading up to the election on the fifteenth but launch didn't campaign in the state and neither did Goldwater who was in Washington. DC in debate on the civil rights, act of nineteen sixty four Rockefeller spotted an opportunity of the top three contenders for the nomination. He had organ all to himself, Rockefeller arrived, Oregon, and made as many public appearances and shook as many hands as he could it paid off. He won with almost thirty three percent of the vote beating out lodge who was in second place and Goldwater. Third. Lodge had only ever been on the ballot cycle as a write in candidate initially unconcerned with the campaign. He was even out of the country flying over Vietnam when he learned over Army Radio that he had won New Hampshire that upset had convinced him to take the prospect of campaigning more seriously. Oregon. Was the only state where he was actually on the ballot and Rockefeller beat him. So Lodge Rockefeller has delegates and dropped out. Then came California the Knockout Punch Rockefeller was projected to win, but the Golden State would prove a steeper fight than initially thought there was a media blitz coming from both sides. The goldwater. Campaign printed force worth of leaflets, pamphlets, and copies of conscience of a conservative while the Republican camp doubled down on gold wanders temperamental and even psychological unfitness for the office of President. But goldwater came out on top for two reasons. California was a conservative stronghold home to a highly enthusiastic young Republican base in Rockefeller Second. Marriage became a liability conservatives there three days before the California Primary rockefellers new wife gave birth has new son's birth put. Rockefeller's divorce back into the public consciousness costing him valuable opportunities among California's religious community. So on June second nineteen, sixty four when California held its Republican Primary Barry Goldwater came in first place with almost fifty two percent of the vote beating Rockefeller by three percent. Coming out of California with a slew of delegates in tow, the Republican nomination was within Gold Waters Grasp Rockefeller was out California a winner take all state was his last chance to take the nomination he had lost, and by now with the convention only a month away, it was too late to recover but the establishment wing of the Republican Party was committed to stopping, Gold Warner they felt they needed someone unimpeachable someone who could please everyone? They believe they've found their man in the Liberal Republican governor of Pennsylvania William Scranton. Scranton's name floated through the primary process. He'd only been a write in candidate thus far never breaking five percent in any contest into his native, Pennsylvania. But for the Liberal Republicans, Scranton was a man to stop goldwater from hijacking the party like, Rockefeller or Kennedy Scranton was part of a political dynasty. It was for his family that the town of Scranton was named. It was his forefathers that had helped forge the. Republican, Party. So a month later, the Republican National Convention at the Cow Palace San Francisco, the divide between the Scranton camp and the Goldwater camp was start Norman mailer writing a piece on the Convention for Esquire remark that Scranton's young supporters routine they tended to be smooth. They had pension for bow ties and they were the kind to drive triumphs. Pontiac convertibles while the Goldwater boys would be borrowing their father's dodge DART. Thought that this was the moderate Republicans. Last chance they had banked on the respectable pedigrees scranton to stand as a clear foil to Goldwater. Now, this was a battle for the soul of the Republican Party. Scranton needed to make a move. July twelfth nineteen sixty four at the Mark Hopkins. Hotel. In San Francisco the host city of the nineteen sixty four Republican national convention. It's Sunday night in a hotel room that serves currently as headquarters for the Goldwater campaign. Goldwater his campaign strategist cliff white nephew staffers are gathered together strategizing earlier today the moderate Bill Scranton sent goldwater letter challenging him to a debate before the ballot scranton had also called the senators platform a whole crazy quilt collection of absurd and dangerous positions and had accused the goldwater campaign of regarding the delegates at the convention as chickens who's next will be rung. It will. So tensions are high in the room as a campaign team decides on response and hate speaks up Senator Goldwater? Yes. What is it? It's possible. Maybe maybe even likely that Scranton? We'll take challenge. Strategist cliff white agrees yeah. He's right. Barry. We gotTA move quickly. Scranton takes us to the press tomorrow we're finished. So what do you suggest cliff? Why thanks his genius lies in his extensive list making it allows him to quickly collect and disseminate information among his contacts and it doesn't take long for them to strike a bill. Scranton's normally a cool headed guy. I suspect he thinks this letter will get a fly off the handle. But but if we do, we go into the convention tomorrow looking more like a gang of hotheads than a series campaign. Goldwater might be hot. He's getting impatient. They need to act fast. We just cut straight to a cliff or what if we made it out so that he's the hothead. Wanders gays narrows takes off his glasses and how would we do that cliff? Same, Barry. That that we let backfired we write short dismissive response and we attach our statement to his we make thousands of copies and distribute each pair statements his hours together to everyone here the convention we'll put the letter out first showing them we're not concerned. Goldwater. Looks around to his aides. By the looks on their faces. He can tell they're convinced cold water looks back at cliff white. How quickly can you have this done Clifton printed and distributed in two hours? Berry if the letter is going to circulate, it's going to be on our terms. The campaign went forward with cliff whites plan and it worked gold waters remark simply red governor Scranton's lender has been read here with amazement. It has been returned him seeing themselves described by Scranton's chickens caused goldwater delegates to double down on their support and support for Scranton even waned it was now scranton not goldwater who looks reckless after. So aggressively insulting goldwater supporters Scranton's attempt to provoke the goldwater campaign into acting rashly a hail Mary effort at recovering the primary for moderates had backfired just as Clinton white intended. Barry Goldwater won the Republican nomination on the first ballot with sixty seven percent of the vote scranton came in second with only sixteen when Goldwater, took to the stage the Conservatives and the crowd cheered for minutes at a time. No one could get a word in twice Rockefeller had been given five minutes to speak. He used them to admonish the crown to reject extremism and he was viciously booed. The Chairman of the Convention had to intervene Richard Nixon made the introductory remarks. He introduced Goldwater as Mr Conservative Mr Republican and Hopefully Nixon said Mr. President. Many in the press had labelled Goldwater as an extremist many modern liberals from both parties agreed many more would accuse goldwater of. Violence over the course of his campaign. But in his acceptance speech of the Republican National Convention Goldwater took the concept of extremism and turned it on its head. I would remind you. That extremism. and. Liberty is no vice. Be Remind you also that moderation. In the pursuit of justice is no virtue. The Republican primary was over. Moderates had been defeated and a contest that showed that American conservatism was a serious political movement capable of taking over a party at the presidential level. But now there was a greater test to see if Goldwater and this movement could take on the popular populace President Lbj. We could game is sponsored by upstart. These are uncertain times many of US hoping for financial security while sometimes hard to come by there are steps you can take like consolidating your high interest credit card debt with upstart unlike other lenders upstart can get you a smarter interest rate based on your education and job history, but you don't need a degree or diploma to apply. 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You would set himself apart from gold honors conservatism by pushing a progressive agenda the challenge of the next hey sanctuary. is whether we have the wisdom to use that wealth. To enrich and elevate our national lights. And to advance the quality. Of our American civilization. Your imagination and your initiative and your indignation. Will determine whether we build a society. Where progress is the servant of our needs? are a society where old values and you visions. Are Buried, under unbridled growth. Far In your time. We have the opportunity to move not only toward the rich. Society. And Powerful Society But upward to the great society. The Great Society, was LBJ's war on poverty a continuation of JFK's agenda. This suite of government programs aim to eliminate poverty racial inequality but perhaps, LBJ's flagship achievement was the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four, a bill that sought to limit voter suppression outlaw racial discrimination in public facilities in the workplace and aim to force desegregation in the south. The bill have been transformational and controversial. A group of conservatives known as the Southern Block had resisted the bill when it came before the Senate one Democrat from Georgia pronounce that he and other conservatives would resist it to the bitter end. This southern block had mounted filibuster lasting fifty four days during which time the bill shuttled between both of Congress until June nineteenth nineteen, sixty, four when the civil rights. Act was finally approved by the Senate Johnson had signed the bill into law on July second a matter of days before the Republican National Convention. Goldwater opposed the bill arguing that it was federal overreach in an attempt to legislate morality many found gold wanders position dangerous though on July sixteenth nineteen, sixty, four, the same day that Goldwater received the Republican nomination Dr Martin Luther King issued a statement stating that on the urgent issues of Civil Rights Senator Goldwater represented a philosophy that was morally And, socially suicidal his candidacy and philosophy would serve as an umbrella under which extremists of all stripes would stand Dr. King also expressed concern about goldwater stance on foreign policy especially on the subject of communism saying that Goldwater trigger-happy attitude that could plunge the whole world into the dark abyss of annihilation. For years the Cold War between the US in the USSR had turned hot in multiple arenas in the early nineteen sixties. The situation in Vietnam was of particular concern since the end of World War Two rebel forces in north Vietnam had been engaged in a struggle for independence from the French these rebels had. into. The Democratic Republic of Vietnam or Dr v led by the Communist leader Ho Chi Minh. The RV was recognized by Communist states around the world including the Soviet Union and it received material support from the People's Republic of China another communist nation. In response, the US provided a to the South Vietnamese and French as part of a policy of communist containment. But in August of nineteen, sixty, four at the north Vietnamese appeared to escalate the attack as part of the effort to contain Communism LBJ had ordered a US warship into the Gulf of Tonkin off the coast of Vietnam on August second nineteen, sixty, four north Vietnamese attack the worship which fired back killing several north Vietnamese two days later, the US military claimed there was a second attack on the ship LBJ pointed to these two supposedly unprovoked attacks as a cause for the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution This joint congressional Gulf of Tonkin resolution gave president. Johnson. The ability to deploy conventional military force in Southeast Asia without formal declaration of war by Congress. In a televised address to the American People Johnson emphasized that the attacks on the worship were unprovoked decades. Later declassified documents would reveal that LBJ sent that worship into the Gulf of Tonkin. Knowing it would likely be attacked most modern historians agree that LBJ was looking for political cover to send American troops into Vietnam as part of his efforts to contain communism and in his televised speech Johnson hoped to convince the American people that his response to the attacks in the Gulf of Tonkin were proportion. But goldwater advocated for more extreme response proposing that the US drop a low yield atomic bomb on Chinese supply lines and north Vietnam. Doing. So goldwater handed LBJ political opportunity and the Johnson campaign seize the moment. It's a timber seventh, nineteen, sixty four. It's Labor Day evening in Sleepy neighborhood in Waukegan Illinois an all American family sits together and their living room. Mom on the couch brother and sister on the floor. A dog in the corner dad sits in his recliner with his feet up he reads the newspaper and absently watches. Monday night at the movies on NBC. Tonight's feature is a rebroadcast of a nineteen, fifty, one film David and Bathsheba with Gregory Peck and Susan Hayward. It's getting late the movies nearly done and the kids are up way past their bedtime. So Dad is a little annoyed when the movie stops for another commercial break. onscreen a little girl sits in a patch of daisies counting pedals as she plucked some from a flower, the mom turns to her daughter and smiles all she looks just like you Susan. But just then the mood of the Ad Shifts Camera zooms in on the girls, right? I. As a robotic voice calls out more ominous numbers. As a mushroom cloud billows into the sky and across the earth. Family here's the voice of President. Johnson they is are the states. You'll make a world in which all of God's children can live. Aren't to go into the dark. Room, we must either love each other. Are, we must die. then. The screen custom black vote for President Johnson on November third. The stakes are too high for you to stay home. As the Ad Ends and David and Bathsheba comes back on mom and dad look at each other shocked their little boys nervous in terms the them wondering what he just saw he seems frightened and his sister who looked just like that girl is staring straight ahead. Mother is speechless but tries to console them. Father is furious. On, put the kids to bed but I'm in bed now yester-. Father storms into the kitchen flips through the phone book finds the number he's looking for. He picks up the rotary phone and dials a number. An operator picks up on the other end of the line. The Whitehouse, how can I help you? I just witnessed a political advertisement on TV in my opinion should not only be stopped, but the people responsible should be arrested. I'm sorry one advertisement, my son and daughter were watching. They were watching I. Want these people thrown in jail? Sir, would you hold please? The evening of September seventh the White House switchboard lit up like the explosion in the ad in formerly known as Daisy Americans. The country over was shocked and incensed Republicans and Democrats demanded to know why President Johnson would put out a political ad depicting a little girl being annihilated by an atomic bomb. After being alerted to the flurry of phone calls president, Johnson confronted his assistant bill. Moyers. MOYERS had overseen to production of the had moyer's believing Johnson was angry with him assured the president daisy would never again when Johnson pulled Moyer's aside leaned in close and discreetly asked you sure. We ought to run at just once. But once was all talk Johnson's opponent was never explicitly named but the message was clear if elected Barry Goldwater would scorch the Earth Johnson's team pulled the immediately. But the next news cycle was dominated by the media showing it in full to report on the controversy, the Goldwater can't rebuked the attack. But in the process, they had to acknowledge the ad in the first place. One could argue therefore that a night of angry phone calls was a small price to pay for the free publicity. The same day that ad Ron Johnson reiterated the stakes of nuclear war and a gold water presidency. There is no such thing as a conventional nuclear. Nineteen. Years. has loose the Adam against another. Now if they political decision of the highest order. No president. Of the United States of America. Ken divested himself of the responsibility for such a decision. This speech and the daisy taken together was the core of Johnson's campaign message. What the country needed in these perilous times was someone to unify left and right labor and capital and Johnson was the man to do it by pursuing the growth of all. Johnson said. We advance the welfare of each. While Johnson's daisy ad made headlines. Goldwater, struggled with media both in defending himself and in producing his own ads, the goldwater campaign attempted a public endorsement from Eisenhower in a thirty minute special titled Conversation at Gettysburg. The. Point was to demonstrate the Goldwater wasn't the hair trigger extremist. The Johnson. said he was but less than nine percent of televisions were tuned in when it aired. Meanwhile Johnson was attempting to secure a much bigger audience. He wasn't interested in a narrow victory he needed to put his name everywhere he could he toured New England and the Upper Midwest and his wife Lady Bird embarked on a journey of her own a train tour of the American South Johnson campaigned vigorously and paid off when it came time for the General Election Johnson won with sixty one percent of the popular vote handily beating gold waters. Thirty eight. Johnson was now again president of the United States. But this time elected by an indisputable margin, but goldwater had remained popular with the base. He'd accrued in the primary and that popularity would have far reaching implications to America's political system. The realignment of America's political parties had largely coincided with the campaigns of transformational candidates. By, some historians accounting the first party system featuring the federalists and the Democratic Republicans was born right alongside our country and lasted until the age of Andrew Jackson or the second party system which hit the Democrats against the whigs the third party system which ushered in the Republican. Party was cemented with the election of Ham Lincoln in eighteen sixty Teddy Roosevelt's accidental presidency in the wake of president, McKinley assassination brought the fourth party system which saw the growth of the Progressive Era Democratic president. Franklin Delano. Roosevelt's ascendancy began the fifth party system. But in nineteen sixty, four things changed again, gold waters conservative campaign succeeded in overtaking the GOP with his commitment to a domestic platform focused squarely on the letter of the Constitution in one hand and a free market in the other and a foreign policy platform dedicated to stamping out international threats wherever they appeared. The goldwater campaign had successfully publicly pushed the Republican Party to the right as the years moved on and has LBJ and the Democrats continue to push for civil. Rights more and more southern Democrats men like Strom Thurmond would defect the Republican. Party, some historians assert therefore that the nine thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, four, presidential election marks the early beginnings of the sixth. Party system a political status quo that still exists today in twenty twenty. But if LBJ was a transformational Democrat who offered in the sixth party system, Barry Goldwater was a transformational. Republican who was perhaps a signal of what was in store for the future of the Republican Party. But Barry Goldwater only one six states Louisiana Mississippi. Alabama Georgia South Carolina and his home state of Arizona all that state were in the deep South and all of those victories were by margins of eight percent or more. A solid south was no longer bound to the democratic. Party giving life to a new southern strategy that would pay dividends to the Republicans for generations to come starting arguably with the very next presidential contest and a resurgence of a former senator from California named Richard Nixon. On the next episode of wicked game, the election of thousand, nine, hundred, Sixty, eight against the backdrop of the Vietnam. War and the civil rights. President Johnson declared his intention not to run in the nineteen sixty eight contest leaving the door open for former vice president Richard Nixon stage a political comeback in order to win the White House though. Must win the hearts and minds of a divided electorate navigate a political system teetering on the brink. Don't miss a single week of our march from seventeen eighty, nine to twenty twenty hit the subscribe button podcast APP. Now this show is supported by you our listeners and please give us a rating and lever view but the single best way to help the show grow is to tell others share with your friends and family find us on social media at wicked game pod and I'm Lindsey Graham. Another way to support this show is to go to wicked game podcast, dot com members there, and get early access. To add episodes as well as bonus content, only available to members find out more at wiki game podcast, dot com, and about our reenactments the most cases we can't know exactly what percent but everything in our show is heavily researched based on surviving historical documents where the game is an airship production created hosted and executive produced by me. Lindsey, Graham audio editing by Molly Bach sound signed by Derek Barents, Co executive produced by Stephen Walters Association, with ritual productions this episode written in research by Dante Flores fact checking by Greg Jackson. Seattle Salazar from the podcast history that doesn't suck music violence grant distributed by wondering.

Senator Barry Goldwater President Lyndon Johnson president Republican Party Party President Eisenhower LBJ United States President John F. Kennedy Arizona Republican National Convention White House America Richard Nixon Communism Rockefeller Johnson Senate senator JFK
CC Goldwater "How much is it going to take to get us back to where we were?"

Stephanie Miller's Happy Hour Podcast

28:44 min | 5 months ago

CC Goldwater "How much is it going to take to get us back to where we were?"

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Loc Dot com home title Luck Dot Com. Change the name of this from Happy Hour. It's terrified pandemic our with my maybe literally my sister from another. Mr. CC goldwater looks almost exactly like me. We don't know if there was coming on the Cold Water Miller campaign in nineteen sixty four saying Barry Goldwater granddaughter and Bill Miller's daughter. Look a lot like Canoe Lynn. Noodling going on okay. So we just said we're recording this in the midst of this just A. I just got off the phone with my mom who might be your mom too. You don't know you would not tell her high I from your maybe other daughter. This is truly a terrifying. I mean we're going to get into your great. New Documentary is a backout. Hbo Goldwater but I can't even imagine. Just not even partisan just on a pure incompetence level. What my dad and your grandfather Barry Goldwater would think of this. But this is and I don't usually talk about personal stuff on the air but I was saying CECE. My mom is ninety seven you know and has Alzheimer's and just got out of a facility. Dealing with pancreatitis. We were afraid it was a heart attack. My brother wrote. She's depressed she's on Zoloft she's losing wilted. She really needs you. And so I'm I'm seriously gonNA start crying again because I'm supposed to go tomorrow and you know but obviously my sisters and experts are saying. Don't do that you were just in Seattle. I mean obviously I don't think I have it. I'm healthy but you know so people all over the country are doing this among GonNa Kill my grandparent my parent my child if I go see them and one of has something happens to her in the meantime because next week's vacation and this is you know we have to plan this way in advance. I mean I'm worried about my business going over because under because I have a tiny business and we are extended for sexy liberal tour for the rest of the year that can't afford you know theater deposits and all that stuff every single person in America's dealing with this now on some level. Yeah I think also that there's a there's A. There's just a little scared that's going around that everybody doesn't have the real truth about what the viruses about and I think that that We need to you know that we need to kind of put our head in the sand. I think we need to really get the real truth about this. Isn't that your grandfather Barry Goldwater? That's the thing about. Everybody knew he was a straight shooter. Just the lies alone whether you loved very water or you hated him or you degreed with. He was a straight shooter. He would have told you exactly what's going on day one. Yeah Yeah I think but the this is the. This is atypical of our president. We have the guy that doesn't really kind of understand what this is. All about and pandemics are something that's out of his His band with such a Germaphobe. We've talked about this that my mom is a ninety seven year. Old Trump Voting Fox News watching Republicans still does not agree with you and I that your grandfather. My Dad would be appalled. Thanks email but I'm like Fox News killing people. She doesn't think she doesn't understand. Why coming because Fox News told her everything's fine disinherit. Disinformation is amazing. Yeah staggering I mean I flew over here from Arizona yesterday and I was on a a smaller plane but still I mean it's just There it's crazy crazy the`report someplace that you go. There's nobody there and sometimes you go there. It's crowded and so it's it's a very disturbing time. We've a very special guest. I don't mean to namedrop but Barry Goldwater. Junior is on the phone. Bare knuckle varies here. Good Morning Uncle. Berry is Stephanie. There's that goldwater voice is trump bashing time. Yes yeah welcome to the trump bashing moment. Listen Uncle Berry. I've tried to tell my mother no living member of the Goldwater family. The Reagan family. The Eisenhower Family Supports Donald Trump. Very what do you I mean what's your take on? I know you guys. We get asked this all the time right but what your grandfather would think of. Just let's take it up through last night when my father would think yes. Yeah sorry I meant grandfather. Your father is what he was thinking about the virus about trump in general. I think he would support everything that he's done. He's trump's accomplish a lot since he's been August. I don't think he'd like his personality but I think he would support most of the things that he's done cut taxes move to the capital of Israel over to where it should be. I think I think he was support. Most of the things he's done deregulation You know and for once and for all a confronting our trade imbalances all right. I'M GONNA hang up on you know and it's been nice talking to you that was strong and stimulating and on that note. You buy wait a minute. You weren't sexy Liberal Phoenix last time. I didn't think you were a trump supporter. This is one family member saying really close to the deck of cards here. Okay you seventy-nine your life poetry. I think you're trying to distract me but no not really well. The election is over. The talking is done. Your party lost my party while arguments pass on. Kiss my own you get your ass. We're GonNa leave you that Mike Moment and say goodbye. Thank you uncle very lucky again soon. Go Now intermission. That was our intermission. All right okay. Republican right in Arizona is going to actually hang up on them but I did. Okay comes so much time we have to only so much time and we we you know. Obviously we've I've said this before. This film that he did is brilliant. And you really have to see it and I'm so happy to tell us what's happening yeah I actually went back to them. It'd been off the network for. Hbo HBO IS ON H. B. O. Aired in two thousand six and aired on the channel for about six years and then When off the channel and In the last year or so. I've negotiated with them to buy it back for the next four years so it's going to air for the next four years on channel. Wow so yeah because I think it's an important film. They thought it was very important. I think they've realized that that that film they made in two thousand six was more important. Now Senate was when I came out and so at that point that that was an easy sell for for me to do. I told you that Less time I was home I brought the film and watched it with my mom and she loved it she is. I heard time just great. She's God bless her. She's doing great. I mean she's still smart and funny and like you know snows- ym and all that she's but she's a hard time watching an entire she loved it. We watched it more than once. I don't think she gets the whole point about goldwater really wouldn't but okay. She kinda miss that. But I think the film has an application to kind of show The show what. The Republican Party of that era was about what really was what we're talking about A person that that was constitutionalists that that believed in You know y women's rights separates church and state. We have really a very. It's a very normal Political Platform. That's become kind of a Wackadoo now on in Washington. We don't really have anything. That's yeah I mean it's not it's not normal and it stopping normal like a long time. Well it and that's a problem because now I'm just wondering when you know if you think of the future how how much is it gonNA take to get rectifying back to where we were I mean? We've you know the clean water. Bill has been broken down. You know we've just got all these. Epa things and tr- tons of things that he's reversed. That Obama did are kind of going to be. We're going to be in a bad mess. Pretty sense yeah well economically that. We're seeing we're seeing bonus you can see how hot my mom was. She's in she's in the film. Which is why you're sixty four campaign but you know I love I how personal the film is too. It's maybe you're speaking. It's called Mr Conservative goldwater uncle water. But I didn't even know this that you lived with your grandparents party your childhood in order to go to school in high school in Phoenix. You were born in Sedona which makes sense. Because you're Kinda Hippie fucking dirty hippies still mad at that kicking your bed But you I just love you sit. Sometimes the secret service I'll tell windows. Kinder- was coming for coffee or something. I knew he was really important but not what he stood for. You know we were about the same age. You were five during the campaign. I was three and so the same like feeling like I didn't. I just remember. I wanted to be something I just was great. I wanted to be something great. Like he was. I didn't really know I didn't understand what he was but I knew he was important. You know and isn't that interesting but you say you talked about amused. He was very vocal about his fear of people like Jerry. Falwell and the religious right taking over the party. He was concerned about the change in civil liberties and women's rights. He's in fact. Berry spent much of his political retirement as a thorn in the side of the mainstream. Gop he said. The party been taken over by KOOKS EXTREMISTS. He called for gays to be allowed to serve in the military. Saying you don't need to be straight to fight and die for your country. You just need to shoot straight your brother tie. His grandson is gay. And so you know that's the thing is this didn't start yesterday with trump this whole this version of the Republican Party did it now. It That the I think the the that Barry Goldwater people like Barry Goldwater are considered the icons of our political tapestry. I think that what's happening now. We're just having a It's it's it's so it's so pragmatic I mean we don't it's I feel like we're living in a dream doesn't it it. The reality of everything is just not there but but the film is back out on. Hbo And it's going to be out for the next four years. And I came to town because I'm doing trying to turn this. Turn this film into a movie film buried. It's so time hoping it. Will you get something going? You said I just love this. You said At the end of his career he was saying it already. He was saying things. Like if I had to run ten or twenty years from now I might knock it elected in my own party. The Republican Party has changed into less than what I think very goldwater would be supportive of I. I mean we joke but I actually did not know. Berry was still. I thought I thought last time we talked in Phoenix. He was not on the trump train but he is so. You have the same thing in your family. Yeah it's like a Mexican standoff. We HAVE WE HAVE. We have one side of the family of. There's maybe only me to three people's do that. One side of the family that are just hanging in there and with like wow weird cats you know. Wow on your political do talk about politics with avoid it and we do too now. Isn't that sad to avoid it? We used to. We used to all be so sort of funny about our differences and now it's caused real very sad because it because you can almost ticket as a It's like a personal salt. You know that you're not you're are you that ignorant that you're going to support trump and you can't do that so down a little bit. How their opinion yeah? I shouldn't my family but we you know my brother and I grew up together. Always kind of funny in the midst of all this Lincoln. Either he's just making a joke and something about you know you and your party. You know like whatever. I was joking about childhood. Chores actually made my mom laugh. 'cause she remembered because I've chores when you get there and I'm like I'm just glad you don't have those window wells anymore because we have to clean out the leaves and mud and earthworms and potato bugs says making a joke about that and my brother's like I didn't mind hard work and you know I didn't want to you. You grow kind of delicate and wanted handouts or something and I'm like yeah right. That's right. I've lived off handouts life. I've never gotten Diane. I'm just like Oh yeah and and look where I'm at now. Yeah I'm in the cause. Rhona freeze the virus. Known what I remember this in this article about in ninety eight you said one of the things very what who died in thousand nine hundred might find foreign about today's political scene They will surely. The scene that unfolded on the Democratic Convention in Charlotte remember this his granddaughter surrounded by the Arizona Democratic delegates nominating President Obama from the convention floor. I remember I was there and watched watched you live You said Madam Secretary Arizona's the Grand Canyon State and has produced some fabulous politicians of both parties want includes my grandfather. Barry Goldwater. I'm CICI Goldwater. My grandfather wouldn't recognize the Republican Party of today to which I gave you. Rockstar cheers all by myself. I did the wave home sister. They're right in a riveting riveting moment a direct descendant of perhaps the most conservative presidential nominee of the Republican Party has ever had asserting that today's gop had gone too far. That's not okay. Bearing on what are believed in personal freedoms the right to privacy. A woman's right to choose. She said on behalf of the ZONA delegation. I want to cast seventy seven votes for Arizona for Barack Obama the president of the United States that was against McCain was is your dad's you know that was zero. I e. excuse me your grandfather's he he inspiration he got McCain took my grandfather's see in Senate. Yeah so And then he he and his desk and right now. Oh interesting talking to see see right now. We're talking about when people do the ten year challenge on pictures. Well bick people post pictures of me from the sixty four campaign when I was three so this would be the fifty. Something Your Challenge Center you. You look better now than you did that. Well Okay but listen. I expect to have my three-year-old under is but I want my at least ten years ago. Yes from where you went for. President with sea water in eight PLEX DURHAM PLEX PLEX. 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I loved this because I remember all this and this is so great in the film. If you WANNA see what the old-timey conventions are God knows what the conventions this year for even going to have them but you. You had another more personal reason for not supporting Romney. The decades whole conflict between the Romney and Goldwater goes back to the nine hundred sixty four Republican convention. When Barry was the nominee and George Romney governor of Michigan helped lead the faction of moderate seeking to me. I feel like this is all very pissed. Repeating itself trying seeking to insert a civil rights plank in the party platform when they failed. Romney refused to endorse goldwater warning. The Party was writing. It's death sentence with extreme positions You just said George. Romney walked out on my grandfather in nineteen sixty four at the cow palace. I'm not sure how I could support his son now with my grandfather was alive. I think he'd say his father was a real weenie. You left me hanging. I guess I was looking for word a word. Weenie might not have been the most appropriate but yeah yeah I the the whole the whole sixty four campaign. I was as as we were talking about earlier. I was young as well but it really gave me doing this film. It gave me an insight to his political career and his process and how he had gone through so many different things to get to where he thought and it was nothing the way he built the things that he believed in. We're we're core values. That actually could backup with stuff. It wasn't there were they weren't like high hypothe- are it wasn't a thought that is not reality. He was always reality based again. Just go down to the bottom line and figure out what it was and that that's what made him such a diplomatic and fair person. Yeah that he was he was very misconstrued and everybody really thought he was. You know the the was the Johnson administration that spun this story on Goldwater. That made him just a you know a crazy man. Considering what's going on now I. He's far from easy. He's probably the most sane person. Yeah he would be. I loved that you call him a Polka Polka. What is to explain that populace just to name that we as kids? My sister and I were first grandkids. And I couldn't really say Papa or whatever whatever word and my sister came up with that word and we all call them Pokka. Yeah I remember him being at my house on Willow Street in Lockport New York in. Oh I was a little kid and It was must have been something Gordon Miller Reunion. Something and he just funny I just remember I remember now and I must have been like. I don't know you know with the toddler or something. But he looked at me he goes you you were a little squirt. Sleep is big glasses. I was like who he is. Uh-huh yeah but anyway the film I can't say enough about. I'm I'm so glad you not were rediscovering. A because it sort of becomes newly relevant in every political cycle in particularly now. I think yeah it. There are some really beautiful moments in the film. That really explore Issues that people really would have probably stayed away from but we kind of went on to them to have to break the taboo. That and I think that the nicest thing about the film is because we have. I've interviewed everybody for Hillary Clinton to machine John McCain to Walter Cronkite to Alphonse D'Amato and various people and the common denominator especially with you know with like Andy Rooney and people were the the bottom line is he was just a really nice guy and despite the his political attributes or his political positions. He was a man that was honest. And he just really. He really said what he fails patron he whether you read with them or not. I doubt entry now trump. You never doubted his motives or thought it was out. Please tell me that Walter Cronkite at the end of the area said and that's the way it is now. But he's he's he's a very interesting guy to talk to. He was when when Kennedy was assassinated. My grandfather was just on his way. To Muncie Indiana for my great. Grandmother's funeral his. My Grandmother's mother had died and he was not aware of assassination Got Off the plane and use on his way to the service for his mother-in-law and they made they've the rumors circulated that goldwater kind of ignored. The fact that Kennedy had been assassinated and went. You know on campaigning. But it wasn't campaigning. He was going to a funeral news dot when he got off the plane and they said did you know Senator Goldwater. The president was shot. And it it kind of caught him off. Guard. He was really upset. You know very very very destructive. Tim Not only was. He mourning the loss of his mother. You know gathering there in law but that now he had a friend that disposes acetate and the person that he was supposed to run with by the way left him crazy. Say That again because people don't realize how politics was Barry Goldwater JFK. And they were sister around against each other but really liked each other and we're really looking forward to a debate of ideas. They wanted to share a plane. They want to get get a train. They wanted to do the old Campaigning style whistle-stop tours. And and really show Americans what what political with the platforms are like old stumping. You know that was that was the way people used to do. It gave the gave everybody that audience the feeling for the two people at one time and that that now we do these debates that are so theatrical that it's not really anything that you see the personality and see the true persona. Come OUT NEXT COMING UP IN PHOENIX actually. Yeah that's right. If it goes on Val they'll that's right. They might do closed circuit. Yeah live speaking of Arizona. Jammies in their bedrooms skype. Today I senator the first presidential skype debate. And they're all in their jammies have their coffee turn. Kian I'm not touching on that touching Al Franken also in the film interesting He was talking about the civil. This is a really interesting part of the film he was talking about civil rights legislation he said Goldwater was wrong and he made his whole Party wrong. But as you know about your grandfather's a person as I know about my father they were not racists you know. My Dad was a prosecutor. Nurnberg part of his concerns. I know they states rights is like a catch all for racism but they really were debating serious legal issues back then and I know for certain I never heard a racist word out of my fathers mouth his whole life and so and I know he actually voted the other way than your GRANDPA did on. You know. There were a lot of versions of the civil rights thing but explained that because that's addressed in the film about the whole him. I call the race. I had a problem with public accommodations clause of the civil rights bill so he was That was a struggle for him and he wanted that particular portion of the bill to be rewritten. He was afraid that would would violate groups That needed to meet for constitutional reasons to be alienated are subjected not to have that privilege and I think that that was enough for him to say. This isn't really a fair document. And this was something that that that had been being was being pushed through For a long time and he was one of the few senators said now I just? I don't agree with us. And it was. Rewritten may be maybe more constitutional so he was more of the constitutionalists. It was looking at it from that standpoint and it wasn't it wasn't anything racist because he did surrogate desegregated the Air National Guard in Arizona before Harry Truman. Did you know it isn't that interesting? Also in light of today were Donald. Trump is an outward virulent racist. Who I mean you know we can go on and on list everything but isn't that interesting. Your grandfather got cast as a as a racist when you that textbook for. What racist is I? I was thinking about what my dad would think. Nurnberg prosecutor about very fine Nazis in Charlottesville find people on both sides. I'm like Oh my God. We've just lost any kind of moral compass in America. Yeah the the the Civil Rights. Bill was a kind of a thorn in his side. Went through you. Know he had kind of hung in there with them for the rest of his career and I think he had to go back. It would have been maybe a different point of view. But it's it's hard to say because I don't know what he do. He was very strong about that reality accommodations class. But it wasn't anything about racism had nothing to do with that. It was not anything to do with any of that stuff and my grandfather was a big advocate for the native American people on the State of Arizona worldwide. He's been an environmentalist. He helped put the way before his way before. Anybody did environmental stuff with the Colorado River. And so he he was a there. There is definitely miss misconceptions on Barry out there and so I'm hoping between this film being released and Abilene you'll have the opportunity to see it again and then maybe getting this feature film going on. Berry that maybe you know maybe we can get some more light shine on it if nothing else cece. I hope right wingers conservatives. Whatever you WANNA call them at this point see the contrast between one of their I guess conservative icon still Berry Water and Donald Trump Play compare and contrast I dare you to watch this film and yet there's there but there's also a whole bunch of lies out there. The lies that deception the lies about You know what I mean. Trump is just manufactured so much stuff that we don't know we can't delineate the truth anymore and that's what's the hardest part about now as it. Everything the gloves are all off. And so nobody's fighting fair and it's GonNa be it's GonNa be dirty and it's GonNa be vindictive and it's just going to be nasty you know here's the guy that is running our country that doesn't have anything nice to say about anybody and it's just a it's a real. It's a real vote. I mean your dad when he was turned the RNC. They came to him with A. I think it was a drunk driving conviction on a what do you call it. A congressional Senate seat. He really needed to win and my dad said. We're not GONNA use this. I know this man. I know his wife and his family could bat. We're not gonNA use this and he desperately needed to win that seat he imagined a Dui well. That may not happen quite a bit. My grandfather had a situation where There was a A. LBJ had a a person that was working close to the camp and he was caught in the men's room at the Ymca in Washington DC and they came to go with water and said you know we can use this. Let's do it. I mean they're they're doing ads with sign off the eastern seaboard and let the atom bomb blowing up the little girl with daisy. Right and you're already being negative Johnson's being negative. Why don't we go after him and it just? That's not that's not my. That's not what I do. And that's not what I'm going to do. So and I think that just shows and that shows his integrity. He was really about a about a decent man in a more decent time. Both both your grandfather and my father. I mean watch this film and ask yourself whatever your politics. Would you prefer to have a a Patriot like that? An office right now. Someone that really whatever you thought of him deeply loved his country and you know any end believed in public service. They actually believed in serving something not themselves and I think Donald Trump you can see up through last night. All he cares about himself all he cares about it is that is just extraordinary in itself in our history. It's it's we're GONNA sad situation right now and I'm I'm I'm just glad the films back out because people are people can see something and the reality of where came from an an and there's such misconception I think the the re the Republicans today are just fed so much crap that they don't even they don't even hear the different. There's there do not even there's no Ville. There's nothing filtered filtering dangerous by at all. Yeah I mean to call her today trump. We will swim loon though bum did like yeah anyway. Listen let's get to the most important thing since we're talking about Arizona. Why have you fallen down on the job in setting me up with Senator Kristen Cinema? I don't understand speaking of me and my needs what I don't what happened there. Oh you could get real creepy on her and she wants to be first lady or something like that. I heard that I heard that my code. Yeah right I can clean up. Clean Up Nice. You Do Clean Up Nice. You do have some pretty pictures of yourself. Your nap did well for you. Thank you okay. Listen if we do. Phoenix sexy liberal. We hope you and tie and let's Goldwater. Let's get some other biggies let's talk? Let's go water cinnamon and Mark Kelly. I took calls out join us. Which means a little different when goldwater resulted in Stephanie. Miller is calling on this Mr Conservative going to be available on. Hbo AND HBO NOW HBO go. And now and I'm streaming and everything is out there to you. Yes thank you so much. Go water again. Why Not Happy Thanksgiving?

Senator Goldwater Barry Goldwater Arizona goldwater Donald Trump Republican Party Uncle Berry Phoenix Bill Miller Senate Hbo President Obama president George Romney Goldwater family Washington America Debra Fox News
Epstein's Lawyers & Leaving the GOP (with George Will)

Stay Tuned with Preet

1:07:12 hr | 1 year ago

Epstein's Lawyers & Leaving the GOP (with George Will)

"From cafe welcome to stay tuned. I'm pre- Perot politics should not be what defines your identity government has a great stately jurisdiction but it's not everything and if you're looking looking for excitement if you're looking for spiritual fulfillment if you're looking for the meaning in life don't look the politics because we've seen what happens when mass movements become intoxicated by political movements fighting faiths fascism communism communism holderness tried to develop the lives of their adherence. It's unhealthy. That's the venerable conservative commentator George will. He's written nearly six thousand columns for the Washington Post. I actually grew up reading George will while I often disagreed with his opinions. I can thank him for expanding my vocabulary. His most recent book is the conservative sensibility and does not mention the current president at all. We talked about the effect of Fox News the fecundity of freedom how Barry Goldwater started the modern modern conservative movement and why George will left the Republican Party but first. Let's get to your questions. That's coming up. Stay tuned. Hey folks cafe recently launched something to help Buke on top of today's news cycle. It's a newsletter that recaps news analysis a politically charged legal matters the cafe brief sign up to stay informed at cafe dot com slash brief. That's cafe dot com slash reef hi it's in San Diego and I'm wondering what kind of authority and control the Attorney General has over federal prosecutors like you were in in New York the Southern District of New York. Could he cautioned investigation that you were carrying on. Thanks I worry thanks Louise. It's a question that I get asked from time to time. It's a question that swirls around discussions about what's is going on. The justice. Department in my answer is a little bit complicated yeah. In the line of succession the Attorney General the United States of America is at the top and he has or she has authority over everything that's going on in the department and so when I was united attorney we you know we had an independent streak but if I were ever directed to do something by the Attorney General I complied there was a lot of discussion. There was sometimes debate. I had arguments with both attorneys. General with whom I served when I was in office which disputes I'm not going to describe in in this program and you know you come to an understanding about how you should proceed and there's vigorous debate and sometimes we were overruled most often we were not but largely most of the cases that we dealt with even very significant ones that included charges is against Sheldon Silver the assembly speaker and the Senate Majority Leader Dean scallops and the charges against S._A._C. Capital in Raj Raj Rudman a whole host of others. There's literally no involvement from Maine Justice or the attorney general whatsoever because there was no regulation or guideline or statute that required any approval from the Justice Department now on other matters like the potential criminal trial of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and the resolutions with Toyota and G._M.. And some other matters than the train would want to keep apprised of we had a mechanism for briefing the attorney general but largely I think the best attorneys general know that a district is handling something well and tend to stay out of it especially when it comes to the southern district there was never a time during my seven and a half years where an attorney general I said do not continuing investigation of someone or something never happened in my experience. I can tell you that if there had been such an occasion where we thought we had a good bona fide investigation in a controversial matter and an attorney general for not good faith reasons told us to stop investigating they would have been something of a crisis. I don't think I would have defied the attorney general in fact I would not have but we have reached a moment where I either had to convince the Attorney General that are way was correct or resigned from the office and depending on the nature of it make myself available for congressional testimony if I thought something corrupt or untoward or improper was happening based on some things that have been happening recently Louise I understand the basis for your worry and I understand the spirit the question to be we'll bill bar. Put the Kabosh on some good faith proper investigation being done by the southern district or some other office. Anything is possible and things. I didn't think were possible have become possible in recent months but I think that if you were attorney the bill bar or you're someone advising Attorney General Bill Bar and you're going to do something like that. You need to proceed with extreme caution because you're not the only one asking this question and there'd be a lot of other folks with subpoena power and gals asking the same question. It's some investigation looks like it was cut off. Improperly health answers your questions. This question comes from twitter user fissile farm cows. I'm not sure what kind of a cow that is but it sounds cool. This tweeter asks I read that a cost of felt incapable capable of going up against epsteins eight powerful attorneys so cut the plea deal doesn't a prosecutor have resources hotshot federal prosecutors perhaps to call on when confronted with a wealthy lawyer up criminal Hashtag asprey Sarah. Thanks for your question and Milliman. I discuss this at some length in the insider podcast which you can listen to but let me just say briefly yeah. I don't know that I believe that reporting. Necessarily it would seem odd to me and I discussed if you're the presidentially appointed Senate confirmed United States Attorney Ernie for a district especially district as large as a southern district of Florida which by the way is about the same size has about the same number of staff lawyers as the southern district of New York and include Miami Large Metropolitan area. You're not afraid of any lawyer you might have qualms about the closeness business of particular case that you have brought but you do have the resources of the government you do have the backing of the entire Department of Justice. You do have access to huge law enforcement agencies like the F._B._i.. The D._A. The secret service and others and also not in it for the money. There's no cost problem for you. You go forward when you think the cases property bring and if you think the cases righteous and the facts are on your side and the law is on your side then go forward and you proceed in court the fact that there may be hotshot lawyer. I don't even know what that means. <hes> ah I think frankly I will not name them here. There are a lot of folks who are in the hotshot lawyer category who frankly were not particularly good okay. I'll name one so I don't. I don't understand why that phenomenon will take place here. which is why I tend to doubt it even though lots of other stuff that's negative about Alex Acosta's handling of this? I do believe and I do credit if it is the case that a sitting U._S.. Attorney was afraid or cowed or put off by quote unquote powerful defense attorneys then they shouldn't have the job to hear the fuller conversation about this issue and everything else related to a cost on Epstein. You can listen to the caffeine cider podcast go to cafe dot com slash insider. This question comes from twitter user Bebo. Oh girl thirty-three you mentioned in the last podcast a former colleague at S._U._N._y.. was now a judge assuming a federal judge. I've always wanted to know how does that work. You Express interest. You're recruited. Can we look forward to judge Guerrara in the future Hashtag. Ask Pre so that's a great question and it's complicated. It depends on what state you're from. It depends on whether you're interested in the District Court. which is the lowest court in the federal system? The Trial Court or the appeals court depends on who the senators are dependent to the president is a lot of different things the general tradition around the country that the home state senators are the ones who make recommendations both for U._S.. Attorneys and for Federal District Court judges to particular White House. That's not anywhere in the constitution. It's not anywhere in any guidelines or statute shoot but that has been the tradition senators make the recommendations. Some senators will recommend one human being for a particular open spot. Some senators will recommend a number of people for a particular spot and give the White House. It's choice. Some senators have screening committees. He's like senator. Schumer does made up of serious lawyers of diverse background who do vetting and screening and interviewing and recommendations to the senator in some states there are bipartisan commissions who make these recommendations so it's all different ways where someone someone gets to the attention of the White House member you cannot become Federal District Judge unless you are nominated by the president so the recommendation can come from any source it can come from senator or somewhere else but the nomination has to be made by the White House and then you cannot be confirmed unless thereafter you were voted it upon favorably by the U._S.. Senate that's advise and consent now a complicates this in some ways is that say the White House decides to nominate somebody over the objection of the home state senators right now a tradition remains. It's not true still for the circuit courts but there's a division of the Blue Slip. The Blue Slip is a form and it's actually the color blue 'cause I filled it out for Senator Schumer on a number of occasions that you return if you're the home state senator with respect to a nomination Ineffective District Court in your state and it indicates your assent to the moving forward word of that nominee if both home state senators do not return a blue slip with respect to a nominee the tradition has been that the chairman of the Judiciary Committee will not consider moving forward on that nominee now you may have read some controversy about the Blue Slip Falling falling into oblivion that is true with respect circuit court nominees so this White House has made nominations up people for the higher court the Appellate Court in various states and the home state senators have not approved those nominations and the White House has pursued them <music> anyway and Mitch McConnell has taken up those nominations and hearings anyway and of course there's all sorts of ways to get to the attention of screening committees and senators there bar associations quite frankly depending on the state. You're in if you're a lawyer who you think should be considered sittard for a federal judgeship. You should reach out to the staffs of both home state senators state your interest and in all likelihood there will be a process they will be outlined that requires submission of an application a resume C._v. references <hes> all sorts of other questions. You have to answer that in New York at least basically track with the Senate questionnaire is once you get confirmed so if you're asking for a friend tell your friend to seek out advice and counsel from the Home State Senators as for whether or not you can look forward to judge Berar in the future the answer to that is no I've said multiple times on the show and also at some length in my book <hes> I have great respect for judges. We asked them to do really really difficult work. We ask them to be perfect and they're just human beings but I like being a prosecutor. I like public service and wonders. I don't have an interest in being district which is I don't have an interest in doing the hardest thing that they do which is to determine for how many days weeks months or years you separate another human being from their liberty and I've said this before I know it sounds coming from a prosecutor who for years made recommendations nations about that all the time and we convict people knowing that they would be sent to prison making those determinations specific determinations about prison not my cup of tea. This question comes from twitter user Chelsea Deandra. Hey At premera any advice for us. Future lawyers currently studying for the bar in major need of some encouragement right now Hashtag ask pre and you've indicated that you go to William and Mary law school terrific great law school and you're taking the bar in D._C.. So me and my heart goes out to you what I will not sugar coat this and you know this better than anyone and there are probably hundreds if not thousands of folks in your position who hopefully our fans of stay tuned taking the bar exam was the single most miserable test. Did I ever had undertake in my life and I had a lot of schooling to a private school in college and Law School and nothing is worse than the bar exam in part. It's terrible and this may be helped. You think about it in all likelihood. You're a great student. You've done well in school cool new gotten as far as you've gotten gotten a law school because you've done well and you're used to getting really good grades on tests. The Bar exam is pass fail right like we used to joke in law school and after that the smartest person in the world was the one who could figure out how to do just enough studying going to pass the bar exam by one question. Obviously you don't do that. I don't know what the D._C.. Bar is like. I didn't take New York and New Jersey New York bar. At the time I took it was pretty hard. New Jersey bar no offense to the garden state was was much easier but they ask a lot of questions on a lot of things that maybe you're not expert in. I can tell you something's not to do so I took one of the bar testing courses and other other popular ones now that didn't exist when I was in law school but one of the classic ones paid a bunch of money or at least my law firm paid a bunch of money and I remember how many weeks it is. I things like twelve weeks or something like that and about seven weeks in I lost all my notes so don't do that. That's a bad thing to do and at some point I began earnestly studying. Probably by late June early July and I shifted my schedule such that I was sleeping all morning and I would stay up and I would study and take sample bar exams too late in the night and by the time we got to the end of July on the eve of the bar exam in New York. I was literally going to bed at eight A._M.. And Waking up in the middle of the afternoon which is not a great way to condition yourself for taking exams begins at like nine A._M.. The Monday before the bar exam which I think in my day was Wednesday and Thursday. I was settling into sleep so don't do this is an example of what not to do at home. I was settling into to sleep in my break comfortable law school futon and I put on the T._v.. Just to see what was on in rest my eyes and go to bed and literally it was eight in the morning the opening credits to the godfather part to grace my screen. I had a decision to make would go to bed after having been up a lot of hours because the bar exam was about forty eight hours away or do I watch for the seventeenth time the godfather part two will I watch the godfather part. Two for three hours went to bed. Millennium did not put me in good standing in terms of rest for the bar exam but I made it through I passed and now I'm a podcast host so notwithstanding my trajectory Tori please do as I say not as I do look. There's really no good advice other than take good notes. Don't lose them. There's certain big areas of law from my time that I remember I was not going to be able to master. I never studied in law school that was earning it for the first time of course of some days in the summer of Nineteen ninety-three and they're only going to be very few number of questions on some of those arcane topics so you need to balance your study time study the basic stuff that you know will be on it in that you probably know better and some of the other more arcane stuff I would make that a lower priority. If you're our prep professors disagree with me follow their advice over mine. I remember one person saying look I apologize for this arcane talk to the Non Law student folks who are listening but th- rule against perpetuity is is something that I didn't understand. Nobody understands that difficult to understand takes a lot of effort and energy and studied to understand and music to my ears was one teacher saying look at most. There's going to be one question on it and if there is just answered D. instead he other stuff hope this was helpful. Good luck not only to you Chelsea but to every suffering law student taking the bar exam anywhere in the country I feel for you my guest. This week is his columnist and author George Will he won the Pulitzer Prize for commentary back in Nineteen seventy seven just three years after joining the Washington Post. No topic is off limits for will he writes about baseball parenting foreign policy presidential candidates and more twice twice each week. We discuss what's happening to the relationship between conservatism and the G._O._P.. While he says Paul Ryan is the biggest casualty trump's presidency America's other national pastime and how a George will column nearly crashed and online dictionary with the one word he used describe vice president. Mike pets that's coming up. Stay tuned feeling safe in your home is a top priority but sometimes finding the right home. Security System can slip down on your to do list. Maybe it's because most companies make it difficult. That's why simply safe is my top choice. HANDS DOWN SIMPLY SAFE protects every door window and room with twenty four seven professional monitoring and they make it easy on you. There's no contract hidden fees or fine. Print prices are always fair and honest in fact around the clock monitoring is just fifteen dollars a month. What really makes simply safe standout their video verification technology with simply safe video verification security system doesn't cry wolf? They're able to visually confirm a break in allowing police to get to the scene three point five times faster you can visit simplisafe dot com slash preet to get free shipping and a sixty day risk-free trial. You've got nothing to lose. Be sure to go to simplisafe dot com slash preet great so they know our show sent you. That's simplisafe dot com slash preet George will thank thank you for joining us. It's a real honor to have you had to be with you. You're the author of a new book the Conservative sensibility why George F will which we'll talk about a bunch what I wanted to let the listeners in on something as standard practice when you go into a studio the sound people want to make sure that the levels are okay and the volume is right. Ordinarily people will sort of either count or talk about what they did that day you instead uniquely began to recite what I thought was the Gettysburg address well even Lincoln can be the improved data living constitution. We have a live in Gettysburg address do you do you mind sharing with the listeners how you made sure that the sound level was set properly. I sub four score and seven years ago. Our fathers brought forth upon this continent a new new nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that the designated hitter rule is a mistake and I'm sure if Lincoln were alive today that's what he would have said it Gettysburg. If only we could spend all our time talking about the designated hitter rule in baseball well I only I only write about politics to support my baseball habit. I've seen you say that <hes> you began as a young smart person as a liberal. Is that correct well in college in nineteen sixty. I supported Jack Kennedy and <hes> was a sort of standard issue academic child on my father's. A college professor knows a standard issue Lebron then in nineteen sixty two. I went to Oxford for two years and came back and voted for Goldwater what happened in between green was not only did I see the Berlin Wall which is a great instant tutorial in the stakes of modern politics but also I got to know <hes> British socialism and stuck may the of vibrant society was having its energy suffocated. I'd buy too much status him at about that time. In nineteen sixty two Milton Friedman published capitalism and Freedom Friedrich Hayek had just published through the University of Chicago press his great book the Constitution of liberty and I was often running toward toward what I've become which is as I say goldwater voter in sixty four when I cast my first vote for president and that is to the memory of Berry that this book is dedicated had that vote go and sixty four nine so good well. No I think goldwater one in sixty four just took sixteen years to camp ethos she you have not written a book about politics and political philosophy in ten years. Why write this book now well? I've been thinking about this stuff since <hes> well all the time in Washington since I wrote my doctoral dissertation at Princeton on the problem is called beyond the reach majorities you may recognize the phrase from Justice Robert Jackson's opinion in the West Virginia v Barnet Second Flag Salute case where he said the very purpose of a bill of rights is to play certain things beyond the reach majorities to rescue them from the vicissitudes of politics and I grew up in central Illinois where we worried about Lincoln and the Kansas Nebraska Act and all the rest <hes> so I've I've been thinking about a long time whether America is about a process majority rule or a condition liberty. They're not the same thing and majority rule can be a problem for liberty and so I thought it's time to put this down. Also oh obviously to speak about the elephant in the room. Conservatism has lost the says I understand that has lost the allegiance of the party which was the vessel of conservatism for actually since Goldwater when it became uh ideologically Conservative Party so this seemed like the time. How many times did you mentioned Donald Trump in this book zero I I also don't mention <hes> Charlemagne or Doris Day because none of them have anything to do with American conservatism tatum although arguably trump has something to do with hijacking party that as you said a minute ago was a vessel for conservatism does that matter what matters that the party was so susceptible to hijacking when these people in the particularly Congressional Party where so lightly attached to their rhetorical convictions whether they were real or not remains much in doubt for years to take just one example the one thing that all Republicans agreed upon was the virtues the free trade that is so universally recognized at least among academic economists that it's one of the reasons why economics is one of the few academic fields that has moved to the right in the last fifty years? Donald trump comes down by the way you're no no longer for free trade and they tug their four locks and they said you're right. We're not and he said about exercising discretion that Congress has given the president's Willy Nilly over the years as part of the Congress shedding its responsibilities in ways that we're the court the Supreme Court vigorous in enforcing a non delegation doctrine they could stop east say they tugged on their four locks is at the same as bangs. Okay Baosen's doesn't to their dear leader. I'm I'm translating for some of the youth for further further to what you said just now George. Let me read something you wrote very recently in the Washington Post which I tend to agree with consider today's supine behavior of most congressional Republicans. Echoes what you said but then goes a little bit beyond speaking of Republicans you say they report free trade until trump informed them that they were not they were defenders of the U._S.. Intelligence community until trump announced in Helsinki that he believed Vladimir Putin rather than this community regarding Russian support for his election they they excoriated wishful thinking regarding North Korea until trump spent a few hours with Kim Jong UN and smitten tweeted. There is no longer a nuclear threat from North Korea. So can you expand a little bit on why you think they're so supine. Fear is the basic answer. They've you've seen what happened to senator corker and Senator Flake and Congressman Sanford who got on the wrong side of Mr Trump and learn now outside of politics a large number of people are in politics to be in politics. That's what they want. That's that's their objective and he intellectual ideological trappings that came with at our to be shed as a snake sheds its skin when they become inconvenient as a lot of traditional Republican views have one of the few things that my hero James Madison got wrong was he said in the federalist papers at under Popular Government All power tends to be sucked into the impetuous vortex of the legislature actually for the last eight years or so Congress Chris under both parties as been spending off powers to the presidents of both parties reveling in the fact that they are no longer accountable for many of the things that happened in Washington and it's much more restful to allow most is to the actual legislative that is the details the trade offs all the granular business of government to be done by the agencies in the executive branch of the administrative state so when you say non delegation doctrine remind people what you mean there are certain certain well. Let's do it this way. The first substantive words of the Constitution that is the first words after the preamble are all legislative power shall be vested in a Congress of the United States Congress has no right to shed powers that this Dec- rulemaking discretion to the executive branch that is essentially legislative power John Locke and the second treatise said legislatures make laws they may not make legislators and the Supreme Court has in the past episodically episodically <hes> but not recently as I said there are limits to the discretion Congress can wheeled and giving essentially legislative powers to presidents so is it your view that the only the only conservatives that can sort of be fearless fearless and stick to their principles whatever they may be in whatever other progressives on the other side of the ideological spectrum may not like but the only people who can be free to say what they feel are journalists and columnists like you and David Frum and Max boot who've also been on the show but that there's a large number of Republicans who are elected to office who feel the same way that you do but out of fear don't state that and will revert back to being garden variety conservative later or is that debt for good well. That's a good good question I if Mr Trump was reelected that changes a lot of things one term is an aberration two terms as a trend pattern and I think coming back from eight years of this would be very difficult. I'm not saying that the Republican Party can snap back to what it was. I'm not saying that actually ought to but I am saying that the vigour with which Republicans have turned their back on fifty years of rhetorical support for conservative positions is striking. What is is open to question is whether the rhetorical support was ever particularly sincere? Let me give you one example. I believe the For all the talk about the discord in American public life the most shocking and frightening thing is a consensus. It's as broad rod the Republicans deep of the Grand Canyon extends from left to right of the spectrum and assembly this that we should have a large generous entitlement state and not pay for it. Everyone's agreed that we should give the she give the American people Blah dollars worth of government in charge them eighty cents for it. The public likes that bargain the political class loves making big government cheap by shoving part of the cost of it off on the unconsented because unborn future taxpayers and we sail merrily long while everyone talks a great game about fiscal responsibility Republicans. Don't mean it we could also just make Mexico pay for it no well of course but I mean when the next recession Russian starts and if the president has abolished the business cycle has NATO modesty would not have prevented him from mentioning that fact when the next recession starts with deficits already at a trillion dollars a year at full employment and three percent percent growth. It's going to be really interesting so let's take Mitch McConnell for example. Do you think that he has any love affection admiration reporter in a real way with Donald Trump and donald trump's politics no oh <hes> no Mitch McConnell very well and I think I know how he's thinking. He's thinking that there's nothing he can do about that. INDEPENCE Vania Avenue Sixteen blocks away. There's this primal force of nature who's doing what he does but the Senate Mr McConnell says repeatedly is in the personnel business that is it must advise and consent to the nominations to the executive branch and most especially to the article three courts so Mr mccombs keeping keeping his head down and doing the personnel business half of the sentence business and doing quite effectively suppose hypothetically that Donald trump gets defeated by a wide margin. It's a definitive loss and some Democrat it becomes the president what then will be you think the posture of people like Mitch McConnell not just with respect to the the new president going forward but with respect to how they will talk about the trump presidency once trump has gone and would never hold office again. I don't think they'll talk about. I think it'll be a repressed memory. I think they will they will say what that didn't happen. We'll need hypnotists exactly I think that they think they will come back to something like the conservatism that by outline in my book this discussion we're having about the difference between what conservative sort of philosophers or writers or journalists can say and talk about seems too on the liberal side and what is politically possible for what could be the vessel for that ideology whether it's conservative or liberal will be an important question but is there a point to conservatism or for that matter liberalism outside politics in other words. Is it the purpose of it too 'cause politics. If that's the point of view you have to become <hes> Co extensive with the philosophy not really i. I can't speak for progressives today but I can't speak for conservatives who are getting American context the legacies of classical liberalism of rights-based limited government natural rights thinking from lock through Jefferson Hamilton the rest I think one of the messages and invaluable message after the political intoxications of the twentieth century is that politics should not be what defines find your identity that government has a great stately jurisdiction but it's not everything and if you're looking for excitement if you're looking for spiritual fulfillment if you're looking for the meaning in life don't look the politics because as we've seen what happens when mass movements become intoxicated by political movements fighting faiths fascism communism all the rest that try to enveloppe the lives of their adherence. It's unhealthy we incent accent allowed baseball to governor. That'll be better who should leave lots of social space for people to have hobbies like that. Yes absolutely I guess my question is. Maybe there's a silly question to the extent. There is such a thing as conservatism. What does it speak to outside of policy and outside of laws? There should be areas of life where like baseball or art or music short literature look the reason. I called my book that Conservative sensibility is a sensibility is more than an attitude but less than an agenda. It's a stance away of see a way of experiencing reality and the flexible events a wise person said if you reduce the message of the Bible to one sentence it is God created man and woman and promptly lost control of events uh-huh Conservative sensibility likes that it likes the fact that in an open society of spontaneous order to use the phrase from Hayek figures prominently in my book to embrace the openness of the open society lyod use the phrase from Karl Popper the great philosopher of science wrote the book the Open Society and its enemies to embrace the fact that the fecundity of freedom is such and the exhilaration of an open society is so exciting reading. It's frightening on occasion. An Open Society of dynamic economy has casualties care must be taken for the people who are left behind but the basic experience is thrilling and it's not the thrill of politics politics is the thrill of a creative life lived in the vast social spaces left by lightly governed society. It's quite a dilemma isn't it. I've been thinking about this over the last number of weeks months. Maybe two years that there's all sorts of people people who think that what's happening in Washington and the policies that Donald Trump is putting forth and in some cases more importantly the rhetoric causes people to be consumed by in in a way that I think people have not been consumed by politics or a president in my lifetime and that's important and people say you know you must vote you want people become engaged. I have three young children who I hope will become engaged and on the other side. Is this point you keep making that can become so consuming that you forget to enjoy these other things. You're quite right that the current current president has has achieved a ubiquity that no one has ever seen before but that I mean I don't blame him for trying all presidents would if they could. I suppose I blame the media for allowing themselves to be whipped around the way they are but it's important portent understand the long pedigree of this phenomenon that we now have began with Theodore Roosevelt in his stewardship idea of the presidency which was he said the president is free to do anything he wants that he is not explicitly forbidden to do significantly Teddy Roosevelt was the first man to become president who was filmed by a movie camera because the modern technologies mass communication have helped make the modern presidency now you combine this new intimacy with the desire of Congress to shed powers responsibilities and to give presidents the power to impose taxes in the form of tariffs and all the rest and you have the short circuiting of the Madison Equilibrium what guidance does. Is a conservative ideology. Give one about particular policies and does that change over time so for example. If you're a conservative of the type that you write about in your book you know someone who would use to those principles at the time that social security was proposed. What would have been the appropriate conservative view? It's a very interesting question because you know when Ronald Reagan came to town he did not have a complaint against the new deal. Legacy was the great society legacy that he took aim at social security. Already is something conservatives can embrace that is a social safety net today they embrace it but I guess a lot of them did then to <hes> social security is something government knows how to do that. Is it identifies an eligible cohort. The elderly males males them checks fairly simple. What changed was when in nineteen sixties when government said our scope in our competence are so majestic that we're now going to deliver things like mobile cities? Government doesn't learn how to build a model city just doesn't but it it had this sudden pretense now notice what happened in nineteen sixty four when the country made terrible blunder of rejecting my man Goldwater <hes> seventy seven percent of the American people said they trusted the government to do the right thing all the time or almost all the time today. The figure is seventeen percent. That's a sixty point collapse. The Prestige of government has plummeted as the pretenders is of government have risen now seems to me my progressive friends all of whose agenda depends upon strong government the can only be strong if the public supports it and respects it my progressive friends French should be alarmed by this. They should sit down and say how did this happen that we frittered away sixty points of public approval who your progressive friends who your best progressive friends Oh gosh they're just a bunch of writers in town. I don't embarrassed back by identify them as friends but as you may have noticed in the buck <hes> my best friend for many years with Senator Pat Moynihan of New York Yeah Resolute New Deal Democrat never wavered in that the finest social a scientist ever serve in the national legislature man of fact data and reason and good cheer who loved the clubhouse kind of politics he grew up with in New York and loved the game. Are there any people who are in the image of Pat Moynihan today well Ben Sasse the senator from Nebraska and and in his first term will be up for reelection and twenty twenty when Ben Sasse was elected to the Senate <hes> is a Yale History P._H._d.. Wonderful Fellow in the one request he made was he wanted to have Pat Moynihan's desk and he does have it any Democrats the I I admire particularly well that are in the mold of Pat Moynihan. I don't think I ever met him an important senator from New York where I spent most of my life and he's a particular a kind of Democrat as you described not the kind of person ordinarily goes into the elective office but are there people like that now in and if not why not ben is the closest partly because people like pat are rarities I want said rather naughtily that while he was in the Senate Pat had written more books than most of his colleagues had read but I mean that was just they don't they don't come along that often but Ben Sasse would be. He's actually written two books while he's in the Senate and both of them are repay. Pay Reading. There's this continuing we like to say battle because we like you know war metaphors between conservatives and progressives slash liberals but in America as people often point out. There's not as much of a spectrum spectrum is not as broad as has it is in other countries. There's there's basically two parties as some people point out not that different when you compare <hes> how politics goes on in for example the country of my birth India the difference between one end of the spectrum and the other is much much much wider than it is in America. Not You know some people think that's a bad thing. Some people think that's a good thing but my question is if you had to do the ven diagram of the Liberals and conservatives in America. Not You know broadly throughout history. Where is the overlap? You made a joke earlier about everyone wanting entitlements not wanting to pay for it somewhat ingest but they got the point but are there some things that you would see in the ven diagram from which there's fruitful progress to be made in expanding the overlap for example there can be differences opinion with respect to certain policies and the limits of the First Amendment but is it fair to say. Maybe I'm wrong about this and we can have a debate about what happens on college campuses but generally speaking a mainstream liberal whatever that means and the mainstream conservative in America tend to agree on the importance of the Free Press Fair yes of course there are other things like that. Yes I think <hes> I do not tar mainstream liberals with the behavior of academic progressives who are trying to impose thought control on campuses. I quit them of complicity in that very kind of you know. It's it's not obvious but I think it's it's fair to do. I do think that <hes> there are intelligent. Men and women in both both camps who can do arithmetic and the Arithmetic tells us that the entitlement programs we have under current law are unsustainable. This is because this is a really predictable crisis because it's driven by demography and demography is destiny for a welfare welfare-state because a welfare state exist to transfer wealth to the elderly. We know how many they are and we know what's happening to the cost of medicine people understand this and I think I think they will come a time when they'll be a president who says okay look. These are all split -able differences. We're talking about money. <hes> we're not talking about the meaning of life we'll see that <hes> we can get back to the business of politics which is splitting differences the other issue that I I thought about because of the prior life I had that to my mind doesn't seem to be conservative issue or a liberal issue if you can show it and that is bipartisan hatred of corruption does that remain something that that is opposed Jose a bipartisan basis yes again rhetorically everyone the Pos to corruption the problem is that the modern state which exists to further the national pastime which is not baseball it is rent seeking and in fact we have so blurred the the line between what is corrupt and what is simple normal routine everyday garden variety manipulation of the government that it's hard to say what is corruption and what is normal practice in has been well said that <hes> if you set out a picnic thank you expect to draw aunts and the biggest picnic in the world is a federal budget. There is a reason why five of the ten most affluent counties in the United States by per capita income in the Washington area. We have no natural resources. We don't manufacture anything except rules laws and trouble but we get rich because trillions of dollars are sloshing through and being allocated by government that is far too deeply involved in allocating wealth and opportunity in his far partout subject to regulatory and other capture. I believe that <hes> for example Elizabeth Warren has a firm grip on half of a point. She says rightly that the government is far too much the play thing of you've compact intense articulate confident well lawyered factions that know how to work the opaque gears and pulleys and levers of the government where I differ from Elizabeth Warren she says well the solutions and make like the government really much bigger and much more intrusive and much more energetic and allocating wealth and opportunity she really believes that somehow government is suddenly going to become disinterested De Respect Elizabeth Warren I do do actually she brings a a weight and dignity to politics I mean I love the audacity which she has made. I have a plan for that her mantra because she surely knows the old axiom. If you want to make God todd laugh telomere plan you clearly have a bias that we have I think established in this program towards people who have written books yes do we need more of that we sure do I mean I. I'm I'm well aware of the existence of the new media twitter and facebook and all that stuff but I still think that books are primary carriers of ideas that books matter. I've just written a great thumping one on that belief that the Conservatives sensibility let me say it again today for that yes at the greatest publishing events since can I go back to to Goldwater for a second of course when I first started this program way back you know year and change ago I had on when he was still senator. Jeff Flake and Jeff Flake had written a book also and I believe if I remember correctly that he borrowed the title from Barry Goldwater. You are correct. He said like you were saying now. Barry Goldwater was a hero of his and a model for him the difference between you and is he was a sitting senator in in your a you're a writer of books and he was thinking about taking a stronger stand and thinking about doing various things in one of the things he chose not to run for reelection and I didn't understand frankly how that squared squared with his adulation for for Barry Goldwater given the the Barry Goldwater as you've described already ran an uphill race very uphill against Lyndon Johnson and remained as far as I can tell <hes> although it wasn't alive then true to his principles and got thumped forty nine states and then no forty four states a forty four states. I'm sorry that was the seventy two nil. It's good to have you on the show. People don't correct me when I say dumb things and then some people will say I think you're one of them that notwithstanding that loss in that race conservatism was in a sense launched Glenn then had its its expression more fully in the political world in Ronald Reagan and there was there's something good about that question. I asked this question a because I wonder how you think about Jeff Flake and that decision not to stand up for principle and run again even if you're GONNA go down in a flaming loss and then second if there's any lesson there for liberals progressives who are debating what kind of person they want the White House. Do they want someone who is you know during more purely to some view of liberalism and progressivism in America or someone who can just win. That's an excellent question and <hes> I know like and respect Jeff Flake he would have lost in the primary he wouldn't even to the general election so it would have been a truncated attempt to unfurl a flag. That was not popular anymore in Arizona. Let me go back and do a little history here. Barry Goldwater was a reluctant presidential candidate. It's as close as we've come to a draft in my lifetime because the conservative movement kept prodding them and moving them this way and this was in nineteen sixty two and nineteen sixty three and nineteen sixty convention. Eventually gone to the Convention and say Wake Up Conservatives grow up we can take back this party then as he was being ambivalent about this on the twenty second of November nineteen sixty three Kennedy is shot. Lyndon Johnson comes in Barry Goldwater knew you instantly that the Republican nomination was not going to be worth very much because the American voters were not going to choose to have three presidents in fourteen months which is what they would have done if they elected goldwater so he held back and finally they said said look someone needs to revitalize the vocabulary of limited government unfurl this flag you'll lose but you will plant seeds and you will change the Republican Party will make it a vessel of of these ideas and finally he said well damnit. Damn it alright I'll do it. He went out and had a blast actually because knowing investment gonNA win. He went to Tennessee and said let's privatize the T._v. and said some things that <hes> some of US found bracing is Barry Goldwater of the left as we approach the twenty twenty world could be Elizabeth more on news. I don't Count Bernie Sanders because I don't take his socialism seriously. She Elizabeth Warren much more of a Socialist Bernie Sanders. Why don't you take it seriously what his socialism Bernie Sanders Socialism yes well because he wanted to find it in the first place? Look what is socialism it used to be government ownership of the means of production distribution and exchange then Lennon with the new. We cannot make policies that well no actually socialism is government control of the commanding heights of the economy heavy industry telecommunications transportation et Cetera then after the Second World War European socialism was watered down and further to the point at which it was regulation of the private sector by the public sector plus ambitious redistribution of wealth. I am news bulletin for you. That's America today. Sixty seven percent of the federal WPRO budget is transfer payments. The Sky of America is dark with checks flying back and forth from one faction to another so the there's he pretends that there's a kind of clarity about what socialism is he. He actually thinks Sweden is a socialist country. Sweden has more billionaires per capita than we have so I just. I don't think he's his tended to his facts. What's been the impact of Fox News realistically on on American Politics while it speaks directly to the Republican nominating electorate in the trump probably could not have been nominated without Fox News and <hes> probably not elected without Fox News? I mean it sits there for forty forty North Capitol Street right across the capital. It is a place where Republican members of Congress can walk and fifteen minutes from their offices and speak directly to their voters so it's it's been a mobilizing force and a profound one so so that's that's what you're saying. That's where a lot of people say left and right and Fox has a lot of critics and obviously has a lot of people who watch it but as I understand it if you look at the numbers on any given even talking about Sean Hannity which I think doc is or was the highest rated program. Yes it just a few million people exactly single digits millions and yet tens of millions of people voted for Donald Trump and so I I wonder a little bit about this theory that I saw someone challenge of how much effect Fox can really have if on any given day a tiny fraction of the people who make up the thirty nine to forty one percent of trump supporters are ever watching it. Do we overstate the impact to Fox News. I think we do but we should not overstate eight. The importance of the intense minority of Americans who drive the nominating electoral process who are actually active in the turning out of votes. There are three hundred twenty seven million people in this country at any given moment more than the three hundred twenty million of them are not listening to talk radio not watching cable television. They're washing the car cleaning the gutters and raising children and getting on with their lives but the small intense minorities matter in democracy intensity <music> as much as numbers matters. I guess that's right. How is your experience at Fox News? I like the people a lot of good journalists there <hes> they came to the conclusion and they were right. I didn't belong there anymore. <hes> no hard feelings and we went our Mary. May I may be the only person who's worked for both Fox and M._S._N._B._C. and people sometimes say gee what's the difference as well there isn't one in one sense and that they both have a base that they have a core audience and they feed it and they cater to it. <hes> that's a business model. I don't think anything wicked about it <hes> but in that sense quite similar you left the Republican Party. I did on June Third Twenty Sixteen the day after Paul Ryan endorsed trump. I said well that's it. Did you struggle with that. No not a bit. It wasn't a close call. If someone is intelligent and cheerful and decent is Paul Ryan was going to endorse trump and trump was going to be thoroughly normalized and I didn't on be part of that but people always say gee would courage it took ten take any courage at it sound like leaving a church a political parties a utilitarian device and when it stops being useful you go elsewhere that's all how do you judge Paul Ryan today. Hey I think Paula was probably the biggest casualty of the trump revolution. <hes> I know that Paul doesn't <hes> what am I gonNA say what he thinks Mr Trump he can do that on his own but he's is not a trumper he tried he hadn't responsibility his congressional caucus and made him speaker very high office huge responsibilities. He tried to work with the MR trump found it not worth the candle and left it was I think a civilized intelligent decision what is going to happen in twenty twenty. Who's going to win well? <hes> one always says if the futures like the past extra happen we've seen recently that the future sometimes not like the past <hes> Mr trump trump has never really approached fifty percent approval. That's a very bad sign for a president so this should be a very promising year for Democrats however I've just reaching into my wallet Wallet. I carry my wallet a Little Card. It's going to get a bigger card because on it I write all the things that the Democrats one or another of them have endorsed in public so the negative ads are already made about them. Let's see <hes> terrorists and everyone else felons in prison should be allowed to vote. We should end private health insurance. That's a weird started. Campaign is to offend one hundred and eighty million Americans rather like their private health insurance packed. The Supreme Court abolished Polish the Electoral College. Everyone knows that's not gonNA happen because takes thirteen states to stop a constitutional amendment thirteen small states will stop that. We're never green new deal which means the end of meat and airplanes but that's but that's not actually true does not mean the end of meat in airplanes well. That's that's responding to a slogan with the slogan a little bit. No no well what do that is a quote from the talking paper put out by <hes> A._F._C. at a time when six or seven of the current people running for president instantly endorsed it and then they read it and they said well. We're not taking back our endorsement but that's just aspirational well. If it's your aspiration to get rid of meat and airplanes that's good to know moving onto reparations for slavery etc etc now the individually these are somewhat off putting cumulatively. I think normal Americans say who are these weird people and why are they talking about these things so you're for Joe Biden. I'm for Biden would be fine. Hickenlooper would be fined. Laney would be fine. Senator Bennett would be fine. They're bunch of fine. People at the Amy Klobuchar would be fine. The question is are they going to have enough sense instance to pick these people which question reduces to how badly do they want to win or do. They WanNa make a point. They want to send a message that they want to send the president. If this goes a little bit back to the goldwater question too we're right back to go right cold water water. I guess once he decided he couldn't win. As you pointed out he had the luxury of being able to make a point right and here every Democrat knows that he or she can win and many people say forces should dictate that they should win. Part of your point is that they don't have the luxury story of being able to just make some points exactly okay so enough about politics. I'd like to spend a few minutes talking to you about writing. We've had some very important writers on the show now including yourself we had Bob Carolyn the <hes> the biographer you've Robert Moses and Lyndon Johnson. Everyone has a different way of going about writing not only do you write books but you are a prolific writer of columns. How do you not burn out when I first started this nineteen seventy three? I asked my friend Bill Buckley. He was a columnist with three columns a week and I said God you do this every day and he said the world irritates me three times the world irritates or piques my curiosity or amuses. This is me or entertains me twice a week. I'm approaching six thousand columns now and there has never been a day but I didn't have three or four or five things I wanted to write about. You've never had on the eve of a column being do no idea of what you might say. It's always never never have in my pocket right now another little card with column topics. I want to get to know me hang on. Let me grab my breaking news right. He's breaking new. Yes this is is coming to a newspaper near you. Let's see <hes> been writing about the went out to see the common down to the Coast Guard which has gotten interesting mission these days and write something about Oberlin college is recent eleven million dollar fine and for <hes> libel and slander the Social Justice Warriors got out of Control <hes> I'm going to write about the concept of social justice which is much embraced and rarely defined. I'm going to write about the popular vote compact whereby estates would agree to vote for the winner of the popular vote. No matter who won the particular states. I'm going to write a book about the increasing interest in antitrust <hes> with regard to big tech companies and others and what theory of antitrust trust your to justify that those those are pretty good. You're not gonNA run dry anytime soon now and you notice. I didn't mention the forty fifth president because he's boring. He's has become a little boring. Hasn't that's the one thing that entertainer which is what He. Is Dare not be as one pedal on the Oregon. He works all the time and it is excruciatingly pouring so I've been reading you since I was a teenager back in the eighties. I disagree with a lot of things that you would write but I always very much admired the in writing and I think the most reasonable people understand that you're beautiful writer but you do engage from time to time the things fair to say in flourishes and you do use words that at least when I was younger and had a smaller vocabulary I would have to go to the dictionary like I don't know what the Hell George will means by this word and I think you played some role in expanding my vocabulary and others so you do use big words. Do you have a view on that usage yeah when you have seven hundred and fifty words into work with and you're dealing with complex matters you have to deal in intimation nuance and you have to have the most efficient word possible <hes> in recent golic couple months ago. I wrote a column about Mike Pence and I referred heard to him and I guess I almost crashed the webster's website. I said they had five thousand people instantly flew to their computers. What is only ominous means? It means oily but it was the perfect word. It's not so efficient George. If people read the word and then they have to go look it up and then maybe they don't finish your column because they got distracted. My readers are so devoted. They always get to the end. They're all good robust English words. They ought to be taken out and exercised does every once in a while. Do you think writing in this country has gotten worse. Probably everything else has as everything gotten worse not everything baseball's better never in some ways but <hes> I I do think the social media and communicating in two hundred and forty forty characters is not helpful. There is some worry in the country that intellectuals are not to be trusted. There's sort of bias against it seems expertise you have. I think it's fair to say have been an intellectual for a long time when you were a child we made fun of teased mocked bullied in because the smartest kid because I wasn't and be all I talked about was baseball until I come from an academic family. My father professor of philosophy and I was surrounded by books and big words occasionally lots of talk and <hes> it was a great way to grow up but I think I grew up relentlessly militantly normal in unscathed unscathed. Did you wear a bow tie in highschool. Nope that's another good thing thing I learned to tie a bow tie because in the nineteen sixties when everything went mad men's ties became absurdly wide so I went out and bought a bow tie you went said the following about your father that I found really interesting quote there is no moral power like that of a quiet example and none more vivid to me than my father's why is quite example morally more powerful than in other way to model behavior because it is quiet because it says <hes> just watch what I do the what I say it's because it's oblique an indirect and for that reason more effective I think do you have a working definition in your head of what justice means <hes> treating likes alike and unlike unlike that's not mine Linux Aerostat as simple as that simple as that and I do think in the I'm going to get to this mccollum. I do think that the adjective social does not modify justice in the phrase social justice. I don't know what it's doing there. You gave the commencement address at Princeton this year I did <hes> was that fun. It was it was it wasn't fun for a few protesters turned their back to indicate that I'm a bad fell about <hes> didn't bother me the subject of your speech I found interesting and I liked the sentiment you talked about the importance in the power of praise. What was your message that <hes> in an age of rage of Corus gating cynicism and Snarky nece us all of which are encouraged by the but we call the social media and should become antisocial media in this age? Praise is considered a sign of week critical faculties and people become addicted to anger their pleasure synapses is light up in their brains the way cocaine but in fact said I hope that these the class of twenty nineteen leaving Princeton had learned at the university how to praise because if you learn how to praise a it's pleasure in praising because it means injure savoring and appreciating excellence and it means that you have acquired standards by which you can measure people in things and that's a great pleasure to have the standards into apply them to take satisfaction action from other people's excellent. Is there a particular compliment. You've received that has gratified you. The most long ago when I first started writing for National Review in the magazine was run by Priscilla Buckley Bills Sister Mr she was said to me when my copy came in my name wasn't on it she had known it was mine anyway because I because I had a style which I thought was rather good because I've I've always been drawn to writers with Distinctive Styles Pitchy Woodhouse. I remember buying a copy of P._G.. Widows novel so enchanted. I read seventy three more invasive way. I'm a columnist now because of in nineteen fifty eight at age seventeen gone to college and Trinity College Hartford and I went down to New York plunk down about a New York Post and ended I read Murray Kempton wonderful columnist. No one ever did more with seven hundred words. He had a style that he actually knew where he got got it and he said it was from Clarendon history of the great rebellion England was a bit Baroque but wonderful fun if I read a column without a name attached to it and it has the word car skating in it. I'll know that it was only genucel. Yes congratulations on the book good luck the rest of the book tour it is the Conservative sensibility George will thank you for being with us and thank you for all the great reading provided us over the years. Thank you and I enjoyed this very much. Take Care Sir thanks every week we have a special bonus for members of the cafe insider community this week's insider bonus delving into a George will column. I get his opinions on James Madison Baseball and Ted Cruz the worst law John McCain over past and George will really thinks about Senator Elizabeth Warren to hear that and get the exclusive weekly cafe insider podcast sign up today at cafe dot com slash insider their various things that I thought about ending the show with as I thought about it over the last number of days but then late last evening one of the most preeminent jurists in the history of the country Justice John Paul Stevens pass away he was ninety nine years old was is the third longest serving justice in the history of the Supreme Court of this country. The point in nineteen seventy five by the short serving President Gerald Ford. What you may not know is that before becoming a judge back in nineteen forty one John Paul Stevens volunteered geared for the navy precisely one day before December seventh nineteen forty one date which will live in infamy so he was a proud American served his country? Here's another historical fact about John. Paul Stevens not quite a series of one John Paul Stevens was actually at the stadium in Wrigley Field in nineteen thirty two at the age of twelve when Babe Ruth famous Yankee slugger appear to call his shot and hit a home run into the center field stands and a very young on future Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens got the thrill of a lifetime seeing that unlike some he evolved in his thinking over time which I think is a good thing whether or not you think the constitution is a living document or frozen in time people are allowed to evolve in their views views in the one area in which he seems to have evolved very significantly was with respect to his views on the death penalty and as you got on in years he came to believe more and more that the death penalty was not right and the death penalty was not just an actually began to advocate indicate that the eighth amendment to the constitution should be amended with the addition of five new words so that it would read excessive bail shall not be required nor excessive fines imposed nor cruel and unusual punishment such as the death penalty inflicted one of the most famous dissents the John Paul Stevens ever wrote rings in People's ears to this day and it was with respect to the two thousand election case Bush v Gore and Stevens wrote at the end of his descent quote although we may never no with complete certainty the identity of the winner of this year's presidential election the identity of the loser is perfectly clear it is the nation's confidence in the judge as an impartial guardian of the rule of law and quote unlike some other retired justices John Paul Stevens remained outspoken about the law and about the court even as he sat in retirement he was critical Brad Kavanagh called him unqualified for the Supreme Court because of his partisan language during a Senate hearing and continue to talk about the death penalty but the other thing you think about a person not so often in life compelled to think about after they pass is not just how big brain they had how smart they were but how big a heart they had and I did not know John Paul Stevens personally I think I met him in passing just once but I know a lot of people who did and to a person. I'm sure you've heard this on television. The various testimonials and newspaper articles he was a lovely man who not only worked hard but cared about people cared about his clerks cared about individuals and had not just a big brain but but a big heart and one story captures it well that was posted in the New York Times and let me just read from it quote one former law clerk Christopher. L. Is Gruber described in the nineteen ninety-three essay an incident at a party for new clerks before for justice Stevens arrived an older male justice had instructed one of the few female clerks present to serve coffee. When justice Stevens entered he quickly grasped the situation walked up to the young woman and said thank you for taking your turn with the coffee I think I think it's my turn now and he took over the job? Does this John Paul Stevens. May he rest in peace well. That's it for this episode of stay tune. Thanks again to my guest. George will stay tuned is presented by cafe. The executive producer is tomorrow supper. The senior producer is Erin Dalton and the cafe team is Carlo Pagarini Julia Doyle Calvin Lord Benet Bassetti and Jeff Eisenman. Our Music is by Andrew Dost. I'm pre- Harare. Stay tuned simply. Safe is my top choice for home. Security hands down round the clock professional monitoring for just fifteen dollars a month. There's no contract or hidden fees and the prices are always fair and honest. What truly makes simplisafe?

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The Goldwater Rule - Verdict | 4

Legal Wars

26:36 min | 1 year ago

The Goldwater Rule - Verdict | 4

"Wondering I'm hill Harper, and this is legal wars. This is the last episode of our series on the Goldwater rule. If you haven't listened go back to episode one and catch up, you'll get a lot more out of this interview. If you do. The year was nineteen sixty four and Republican Barry Goldwater was running for president against Lyndon. Johnson Goldwater was blunt aggressive and lack the usual politician sense of decor. Biggest maker in the United States. And having the Civil Rights Act. Years of his life. Individuals ever came around. He had his supporters who liked his rash? Dial and his ideas, but he also had his opponents the media disapproved and many feared there would be grave consequences if you were elected. Just weeks before the election. One magazine published their one one thousand one hundred eighty nine psychiatrists say Goldwater is psychologically unfit to be president. The headline read it was the cover story of fact, magazines fall issue, for fact, publisher Ralph Ginzburg and editor warned Borsen the article was a journalistic magnum opus the Barry Goldwater. It was liable and grounds to sue two months later Goldwater lost his election to Lyndon Johnson and four years later, still seething. He took the magazine to court in a trial that would test the bounds of journalism and medical ethics. On today's show. I've got a very special guest. Joining me someone who experienced the gold water trial firsthand never believe, in course, of trial that there would a great chance that we would come out about any kind of. Stanley Arkan was a lawyer for fact magazine's Warren bores, and in the Goldwater libel suit as we heard in our last episode. The jury found in favor of Barry Goldwater, and ordered fact magazine and editors Ralph Ginzburg and warned bores to pay seventy five thousand dollars in damages to Barry Goldwater for liable much less than the two million dollars that Goldwater sued for Stanley Arkan joined me from his offices in New York. We spoke about the case liable laws and journalism today. Speaking to him was very inspirational to me because this is a man who's history in the law. Go so deep he truly is legendary trial lawyer, I hope you enjoy our conversation. Legal wars is brought to you in part by ally. You wouldn't settle for a two star dentist or even a two star restaurant for that matter why settle for two star Bank. We're all too familiar with low rates and subpar service where you're treated like just another number and for what you've worked hard for your money be picky about where you put it. There is a better option out there. That's ally. Ally knows you deserve better. And their mission is to be just that with ally Bank. You'll get interest rates up to twenty times the national average and live customer care. You can chat with a real person twenty four seven even on weekends and holidays. They won't surprise you with hidden fees or confuse you with fancy jargon allies team, actually cares about doing right by you and your money. Get yourself a better Bank. Go to ally dot com to find out more. That's eight. A L L Y dot com ally. Do it right ally. Bank member FDIC. Hey Stanley, this is hill. Harper. Thank you so much for taking your time in talking to us. Really? Appreciate it. Okay. Thank you. I appreciate you taking time as well. Okay. So very Goldwater wasn't important, man. He was a Senator presidential candidate. And he was suing your clients for two million dollars in a what kind of expectations. Did you have going into the trial? I want you to know. This was my first trial. I twenty five or twenty six years old. You're kidding. You're I I was the junior partner or the efficient two very well known lawyer who die not long after his particular trial. He was about fifty five I was twenty six and since I was working with them. He decided that I should represent warrant and he would represent row. Alf? So we had to some Asians and to cross examinations and all of the other accoutrements of trial and also gave me a lot of experience and to stave in some exposure. I've had a lot of sense. So just to the audience knows when you say worn and Ralph we're talking about Ginsberg and Borresen and can we go back into the courtroom? What do you remember, you know, seats, in the courtroom were jammed from what I understand that trial was a media spectacle. What was that attention like for you as your first jury trial? It was exciting. It was early. My first jury trial. I'd just been married for year and out of the army for law school for six months. Wow. And we had a wonderful practicing. So I I remember certain little pieces of with vity. Now, there are a lot of law students and legal professionals that listen to our show legal wars can you break down since this was your first jury trial. What's the difference between in being in law school, and what you learned in law school and actually being in a trial in a jury trial, particularly high profile one like this on a difference in the world, you have something steak and people actually making judgments on what you do. And what to facts are trying to persuade somebody who is supposed to be fair down in the middle and not have a decision or head before we start to trial. And, you know, have a jury trial is obviously it was a remarkable experience that in dealing with the press and giving was my clients Ralph Ginzburg and Warren characters and the subject matter was something which I found interesting, very interesting. But also, so what amusing now do you remember meeting, Barry Goldwater? What was he like all I did meet him? Absolutely. I met him not only during the trial every day. But what happened is I took the jet physician, which sworn statement of his doctor in Arizona. Did you want to get him to say something specific that could help your clients and trial? Sure, I I would like to have him said that, you know, berry was nuts on stable or somebody else which would justify the opinions what you subj-. Objecting to because whole case was about the addition of facts magazine, which had the opinions of a number of Kaya for Barry was psychotic and they had interviewed him knowing him, and I and Hansa gold water which arose out of his case was that before you make a professional conclusion about somebody's civility or mental health, and you publicize it you have to at least seen that person. You can't do it pays to pawn his reputation of what you read you have to actually examine one woman will now in this case Goldwater had to prove that would fact magazine published was false. And that fact magazine quote knew it was false when they published it. Now, what was your strategy? Our basic strategy man ran for president. And he was a controversial figure out it was and they're going to be. People saying things about him. And that we've put in magazines, we didn't do it as a silly magazine. There were lots of good things about him people said, and it wasn't all that. But there were number of opinions from psychiatrists which were written as if they were medical opinions, and there were from obviously false ones, and there were ones which were made up. The magazine has eleven hundred opinions I recall one thousand one hundred eighty nine okay? You got it about me. So so now, you mentioned that they'd Ginsburg and Borresen were characters than you also got it said that fact had you know, some funny elements what about Ginsburg bores, and what do you remember about them in? What is what is your recollection of them personally? Well, Ralph or kind of character. I remember him being stout wearing glasses and kind of humors, but quirky guy obviously had very. Villian series able to publish in. Right. I think he was an aggressive fellow in terms of liking to report outrageous things opposed to ordinary thing. I think a lot of people in publishing relies that Morrison was acquired students fellow who worked for Ralph. And he was a good editor and very low key guys. I recall him over fifty years ago. Did they come off is really worried about having to come up with two million dollars? If they lost the case. I mean, were they worried about this? No. There's no way there could have come up with three million dollars. He said there's no way they could go to come up with two million dollars. Anyway. So they is far as they were concerned if they lost. They would just file bankruptcy and move on was at the idea. I don't I don't I don't think they thought through that way. I think they what to trial. You know, particularly Ralph is for a good cause liberty freedom of speech and also very gold water should not be or should not have been the candidate for president of this country. The court ruled in favor of gold water, but the penalty was much lower than the two million Goldwater was asking for the jury awarded about seventy five thousand dollars. Now. What did you make of that ruling? Well, when I made it ruling jury didn't think very gold water to pay very much, but Ralph done something which was inappropriate and that it was unfair. And it was kind of thing. I don't think the jury thought to magazine was. Very serious. I will tell you that I remembered for very well because it was fifty thousand dollars against the corporation twenty five thousand dollars against Ralph himself else were called exemplary damages an ordinary games for one dollar a single dollar against Warren. Ralph and company every member when it was over. I looked at it came back, and they said he'll fifty for the company twenty five for Ralph thousand and one dollar for everybody else. And so what I did when the jury hundred verdict and sat down and so forth as I remember walking over the very cold water. And I gave him a thirty five hundred my pocket and say here, we're fully. It's great. That's great. Now. What what was there a specific moment during the trial that the potentially knew it was going south? And you're you're going to lose. Or is there a particular moment that that just you know, remains in your brain? I never believe, in course, of trial that there would have great chance that we would come out about any kind of for in. Hence the magazine itself. It was proven during the course of the trial. I think by evidence that there was not a great deal of journalistic care for accuracy. And that it was put together a little bit for sensationalism. And also that obviously Kuenssberg didn't think much very gold water. Remember he was controversial fellow even though he was Republican candidate for president. Right. So if it if it was considered kind of. You know, in a way, fluffy magazine. Why do you think gold water? I mean had it in his cross four years later that he needed to go after them did Goldwater think in some way that he lost the election because of the fact magazine piece, what was what do you think was driving that? Nope. Oh, poor no possible way. He could have lost because of magazine and didn't have that level of viewership. And I have no recollection that had been talked about during her before the election. So why do you think he went after them? I think he did it because it was a he. Think they must've thought he was not a hard target can make a point. And as they got a judgment saying that somebody who would be Smerch him was full of beings, not reliable at something. He liked used to satisfy people who criticize him too much or something in his pocket to justify himself. A matter of his eagle is they certainly knew that wasn't a lot of morning. What's the cost share pretty penny to have this law firm to all? Shipping can be complex with the uncertainty over costs and deciding which carrier to use plus tracking your packages things can get confusing. Now, there's a better way to ship. Send pro online by Pitney Bowes was sent pro online. 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That's PB dot com slash legal wars, and you can experience the convenience of sent pro online for yourself when you sign up for free thirty day free trial, and thanks to Pitney Bowes and central online for sponsoring our show. The American psychiatric association changed its ethics rules following the case stating that it's unethical for I offer the public or professional opinion on a public figure unless you're he or she is conducting examination and been granted proper authorization for such a statement. Do you think just looking back you personally being so intimately involved in this case? Do you think that's a good rule? Do you think that actually that rule is positive my father just as an aside he's deceased now? But was a psychiatrist I wish I would have known about this case when he was alive that I would have. Talked to him about it. But do you think that's a good rule that the American psychiatric association changed change the rules? After the case. I think that he principal rule which was that you can't make what purports to be professionally termination about somebody that actually examining them. I know that many people in the APA American psychiatric association, and I've actually spoken to people that are about over the years believe that you shouldn't be allowed to refresh a particular expert, opinion and less you have a fair patience for it. And they many of them. Believed that you couldn't have that. Unless you had an actual examination of the subject others believe quite the contrary. There were many indications and who we was from television, which was far more ancient saying than just today. And I think that may fells vary had been such a public figure that there's nothing wrong and psychiatrists using their expertise to render opinions, and I remember arguments by people who were saying that we don't see I a has psychiatrists are long distance. I traditional allies leaders of other countries and other public figures, and that people do all the time, even though they don't you Claire to be actual actual medical opinion. You think psychologists or psychiatrists have a duty to speak out if they see troubling behavior in a public official. I mean, you think that that should be part of their purview. I don't. I don't know if I have duty not because I are trying colleges. I think anybody who feels that something bad going on and your country. And it's something bad has happened or about to happen. Could have happened certainly have a moral duty. Commonsense duty of speaking about it having an opinion about it. Not to hang that. We ran very gold water for president. And I think that whether it's duty which you can lead to a come for. I don't know was a good citizen. Speaking out, his a very important thing. That's what makes our country. So great now on that note. Do you think are liable laws are too weak to strong? Just right. How how do you fall out in in that regard? I I don't think a lot of each shrine asking too much, but I think are liable laws. Most likely a sufficient, I think that they do an okay job. Because here what the issue was was whether republics ticker of grace standing presidential candidate is subject to criticism comment more than the ordinary person. And what are being a public figure and being a public issue as human issues, your privilege are right? Not to be too filed are criticize on unfairly. And truthfully. So I think our rules are probably sufficient, and I think that this case did not turn out on Josh Lee. Now, that's that's interesting. I very seldom hear attorneys who lost a case say that they think the verdict was just or the right verdict. He don't hear him say. Publicly trying to you was not wrong verdict. Right. Right. Right. That's different. Understood. And I think that there were certain -ly evidence to justify with jury Jide. I would be giving very unfair account of the case in the evidence. If I didn't say that not every case where you're representing somebody. You're absolutely right. I mean, it's come out the other way, they will be clear we could've one occasion ground when you put your shop front of two hundred and fifty three hundred million people to be their chief leader that you subject yourself to any kind of criticism light. Definitely I could've looked that way. To some extent. I did. The jury came back here after seeing the ovens and seeing that there were some dubious, and in court editing, and presenting within the fact magazine, I don't think it was holy unjust. I think it was something which could have come off that way. And I wasn't surprised wrong. I would have not been surprised had. We warn speaking about the trial. Specifically, what would you want people who learn read about this case to take away from it? What do you think the big takeaway is in your opinion? I now the issue of how you can criticize appropriate to ju in criticizing a major public figure. He'll particularly somebody who is a candidate for or becomes the president or the head of the Senate or chief Justice of the US or something such as that at they're kind of. Open game as he should be in a democracy. And I think that that case the cold water case presented and a very blunt and colorful fashion the need. We have to have open criticism in comment about people become our shoot to become powerful public figures. Now one final question looking back on your lustrous career. How did this trial change your life? I think it gave me some credibility. And I got my name in the paper number of times and people were fascinated by the case. And when your lawyer like me who earns his living by affecting people to refer cases to him. And I had a wonderful wonderful queer. I think it contributed to that. I tried some over the years of number of very special cases, and I had a career which now that I may look back on his great privilege extraordinary amount of could time satisfaction. I love being a lawyer a trial or and I had cases which warranted extraordinary amounts of attention. And and just just they were great live, fit, literature and fun. Mr. Arkansas tell you, you know, I feel so privileged to speak. You. I'm a Harvard Law School graduate myself. And although I've never argued a case in front of a jury became an actor. Instead, you know, my mother is not happy about that choice. But it's okay. She'll get over it. I'm just so happy. I'm so happy to speak to you. And thank you for your. Service. Thank you for being a trial odor. Thank you for defending people in court. Thank you for for being there and speaking directly to juries, and and participating in what I believe to be one of the I agree with you one of the great parts of our democracy. And that is the ability to have a trial from the jury of your peers and being a leader in that. So just thank you so much for taking your time. And thank you for your career and all the impact you've had on the legal profession. Thank you very much for your knife word here, a pleasure to speak to clash of Harvard as you got oh, I was class of ninety two glasses ninety two. So a longtime ago six we're not long. I was sixty two your sixty two I ever nineteen graduate nineteen sixty two from poverty wrong. That was my conversation with Stanley Arkin. He was a lawyer for fact magazine's warn Borsen and the Barry Goldwater liable suit and is one of the nation's. Best known defense attorneys today. He's a senior partner at Arkansas begin LLP next week on legal wars, a substitute teacher in Tennessee goes up against the state a case about whether teaching evolution in the classroom is against the law and two old rivals in the fight of their lives. Thank you for listening to legal wars. New episodes come out every Thursday. If you haven't already you can subscribe legal wars now on apple podcasts. Spotify Google podcasts. Wondering dot com or wherever you listen to this show. If you like what you're hearing. We'd love you to give us a five star rating and tell your friends how to subscribe if you're listening like I do on the smartphone. Tapper sniper over the cover art of this podcast. You'll find the episode notes including some details. You might have missed. You'll also find some offers from our sponsors, please support this show by supporting them. I'm. I'm your host hill. Harper. The Goldwater series was written by Hannibal the ass. Our editor was Casey minor. Patrick tyrel was our legal researcher, our legal consultant was James Ziren. He wrote about the Goldwater case in his book. The mother port tales of cases that mattered in America's greatest trial court legal wars is produced by Stephanie jen's, George lavender, and Katie long additional editing by Emma court sound designed by spoke additional audio engineering by Derek barons and Marcelino via Ponta are executive. Producers are Marshall Louis and Hernan Lopez for wondering.

Barry Goldwater Ralph Ginzburg fact magazine Johnson Goldwater The magazine president Goldwater Harper editor Warren United States American psychiatric associati Lyndon Johnson Borsen Pitney Bowes Stanley Arkan FDIC Borresen
George F. Will on the Future of Conservatism After Donald Trump (Live) | Larry Wilmore: Black on the Air

Larry Wilmore: Black on the Air

1:19:51 hr | 11 months ago

George F. Will on the Future of Conservatism After Donald Trump (Live) | Larry Wilmore: Black on the Air

"What's it's Kelly and welcome to the Ringer podcast network. I WanNa tell you guys about a brand new podcast coming to our luminary sleet called sonic boom for more than four decades the Seattle Supersonics were among the NBA's most iconic franchises but in two thousand and eight pack their bags or Oklahoma hosted by the ringers Jordan Jordan Ritter Con Sonic Boom tells the story of basketball and politics wealth and power and reveals new truths about the NBA's greatest heist. You can find the eight episode documentary we podcast exclusively on luminaries starting October third very much welcome welcome dirt's not only to La Laptops to black on the air my podcast and I know when you wrote the conservative sensibility. I know you're thinking you know if I can only get them. Black on the air in Los Angeles Ground Zero Conservative sensibility yes ground zero is appropriate. I think for that. It's very good. let me just say. I've been a fan of Mr Wills for a long time now. I started re your columns used to be in Newsweek as well. It was a Newsweek for thirty thirty five years. My column today is still about four hundred and forty newspapers syndicated by the Washington Post. That's what we call a bachelor color comment right there yeah Larry. It's still all these better always enjoy DORK missy. I told you early. I miss you on them on the ABC ABC weakened show at that was a great we miss cokie. Roberts who just passed away so I this joking about this book. You're not kidding around with the just the size of this book is amazing. This is not what I would call a bathroom book. George I. It's it's not a beach book coppertone spilled on. Yes yes on the chapter about the difference in Locke Hobbes on the state of nature. Yes people reading Hobson. Shah rather than see how did that just a little helps Hobson humor there for LA. Thanks for coming out by the way it's awesome. I love this. It looks like a real a red crowd here and so that's what I'm guessing here. now one thing. I wanted to ask you in reading the book. It's it's very interesting what the title strikes to the conservative sensibility not conservative philosophy but sensibility why that particular title by Sensibility. I mean more than an attitude but less than under gender. I'm more interested in suggesting how conservative would would try to think about complex problems but also how to react to a world of flux and change and excitement chair someone once said the Bible reduced reduced to one sentence says God created man and woman and then lost control of events the conservative sensibility finds the lock last loss of control exhilarating finds the spontaneous order of a market society exciting the absence sense of control of virtue there. You want things to be uncontrolled unpredictable. The fecundity of freedom allowed to come through the cracks in society eighty and a general untidiness is welcome and to assign a freedom in many ways it sounds Darwinian in some as well. It's it's Darwinian in the sense that the market windows out winners and losers tests success and conventionally things sort out and the winters then face challenges and they become supplanted. That's the nature of of an open free society. struck me about your book to. I wanted to ask you. I wasn't sure if this was a book that was more informative of your or ideas of conservatism or defensive of your ideas conservatism well for reasons to obvious to dwell on. It's a time I'm one the name conservatism is up for grabs God. I believe it is time to say a American conservatism is unlike European conservatism in that European conservatism began really with burks reflections on the revolution in France. It was a recoil against disorder and necessarily a defensive order and stratified society and hierarchy European conservatism is inevitably Italy tainted in my judgment by its origins and kind of blood and soil kind of thrown an altar traditionalism additional ISM almost two structures in land. Yeah somebody's Margaret Thatcher was quite right when she said a European nations were made by history America Aku was made by philosophy and the philosophy in my judgment is conservatism but to people sensibly ask what do you want to conserve and the answer is the American confounding understood as the doctrine of natural rights which is that there's certain rights essential to the flourishing of people with our natures. The therefore there is a constant human nature. We are more than people who acquire whatever culture wherein and that this this presupposes hoses I come rights and then comes the government. Government doesn't give us our rights. It exists to secure them. Most telling word in the the declaration of Independence is secure. All men are created equal endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights and governments are instituted to secure those rights. I come rights than comes government then this inherently limits the scope and competence of government we want government to be strong strong enough to protect our rights and not too strong to threaten them which then brings us to the third the Institutional Strand of conservatism which it is a powerful belief in the separation of powers and as you see in the book a strong recoil against the modern presidency and all that it's become the swollen pretentious ultimately dangerous on hinged executive power. Yeah what's interesting. The thing that struck me is that you know when you talk about natural ranks than those sorts of things were I'm supposing that was drawn from our places like the Bible or the tour those sorts of things from religion but also from you know writings of block and that sort of thing what let where do you do you think this was the system that is was truly revolutionary or with something that already already exists it but no one like actually put it into place. It was revolutionary in the seventeenth century when Hobbs then lock began to write about it. It was sir revolutionary in fact in the eighteenth century the French Revolution and the American revolution and and others came along the they the precursor of course was the Glorious Revolution in England in sixteen eighty eight but it is I think safe to say that the ideas are still revolutionary the when the students in Tiananmen Square put up a statue of Liberty when the people in Hong Kong where I've just been are singing the American national anthem and waving the Stars and Stripes our ideas. Here's are still unsettling to people who believe government comes. First and government gives us such rights as it. Thanks we deserve deserve. Yes you're opening chapter. I thought it was interesting out of the the logical assertion of the founders in in I guess what you're searching and that is that these are rights that have nothing to do with opinion or times or whatever when you use terms like self self evident endowed down by your Creator and those types of terms kind of way Gemperli then rain Jefferson used the phrase. We hold these truths to be self evident obvious to all minds lions that are not clouded by ignorance or superstition so it's not lose. He's out a few minds but these were these were people of the enlightenment they believed in the power of reason to a AH ascertain important truths not opinions these were not it was up to Nietzsche to came along a century later and said there are no facts only interpretations uh-huh the founders and the people enlightenment believed they were facts and they were discernible by our our natures and among the facts that we could learn learn are the best forms of government so in that beginning what were the major fights were was it over how you display these these rights or was it over the idea of these rights themselves. I you had to how you define them. People can have different opinions what rights important second how you're protected them it was it possible to have people running around searching their rights and still have a less than Arctic society. The great break in in modern sought was when people said you know people have different goals different ideas of the ultimate intimate good and we're just GONNA have to learn to live with one another. We're not going to have as the ancient philosophers had we're the government would aim for the definite article. The best people don't from now on we're going to let people decide what the best is and try to form a society. Eddie that can handle this diversity pluralism this perpetual argument and conflict. If you don't like argument you picked the wrong country because America is a really an argumentative place by the way you said a moment ago that that the doctor Metro rights often comes from the Torah the Bible etc the chapter in my book which I'm proudest and that I must fund writing is called conservatism without theism. Yes I wanted to say that I I have described myself as an amiable low-voltage atheist. I'm married to a ferocious Presbyterian my grandfather's my father's father was a Lutheran Minister my father as a young boy would sit outside pastor wills study and listened to pastor will have more reflective congregants worry about how to accommodate the doctrine of grace and free will that made my father a philosopher and the question of faith. It's never came up. I just I just don't feel the need for it and it seemed to me important particularly in the American context next to say it is simply not necessary to have a theological reference behind conservative when you say it's not necessary though but it it does the conservative argument. I'm usually has it in place as a necessary component. You know that it is important when you talk about inalienable rights that these these are rights that are endowed by the Creator that those words are important. Jefferson's great fudge was it installed by by by nature or natures God. Take Your pick that Jefferson was out of control because Jefferson was was not not in any meaningful sense religious say that it's sometimes that our founders were Diaz. Yeah he's been quote. It seems to me a religion. explains in joins consoles deism explains. It says the universe is a great clockwork. God wound it up yeah and then absconded and that's that's such a watery religion. I don't think anyone anyone that deism the Diaz God what is like a rich aunt and Australia benevolent but rarely heard for yes. If there's someone always salty about the idea of God when they don't believe in God. I always believe that until I was like wow if God doesn't exist or if God exists the wires are evil in the world. You're just mad at God. That's what it sounds like. I'm not mad at God. I can't be mad at someone. I don't think is there accusing you of being good with your but but it is but it does seem that now let me ask you this so when you're talking about conservatism you're talking about the founders and their ideas of course at the time that wasn't called. Conservatism Urbanism and I guess maybe one way you might refer Cher's matter Sonian government possibly or or as I say in the book we are are we conservatives are the legacies of classic liberalism frame that comes from lock through John Stuart Mill in an art time Milton Friedman and and Frederick Hayek that is we start with individualism individuals our rights bearing creatures and the idea of liberty at the center air that right liberty at the center the Ludi of the Individual Liberty of group not the liberty of a cast not the liberty of a class about the liberty of a guild individualism or rugged individualism in America Berry in some ways when did conservatism. I become an idea as a term. I think began in England with burke it crossed the Atlantic and in the American Arken context became very individualistic and it entered it. It's interesting the it's taken on different contact has ever since the nineteen fifties after the Second World War. There was a consensus school of American historian saying America is characterized rise by a vast liberal consensus liberal understood as a sort of Franklin Roosevelt kind of liberalism at about that time conservatism began to stir as a reaction against this somewhat oppressive consensus and self-satisfied complacent consensus and it began in a way when young Bill Buckley from fresh out of Yale in Nineteen fifty five founded national review right in Nineteen nineteen sixty four the man to whom you're inspiration a book is dedicated to the memory of Barry Goldwater for whom I cast my first presidential vote vote head law experience losing his you can tell Berry lost forty four states. I started with Lando Lando so you lost forty can really exactly Dukakis Bud. Ah People began to say that the consensus needs challenged goldwater was so badly defeated that that an enormous number of Democrats were swept into Congress saying here between one thousand nine hundred thirty eight and nineteen sixty four there was no liberal legislative lady majority in Congress rose about lost it in nineteen thirty eight and my progressive friends should remember this because in nineteen thirty seven he said the Supreme Court is a nuisance demise new deal bits rate. Let's packing the supreme well his own own party in Congress wouldn't go along with him so he set out in the nineteen thirty eight elections to purge the Democratic Party of those who had opposed him mhm all the people he tried to get purge one in spite of him and the reaction against Roosevelt's overreaching a the the liberal legislative majority in Congress disappeared between thirty eight sixty four there was a coalition between Republicans and Conservative Democrats MHM that was broken with the emergence of the liberal legislative majorities in the Congress that convened in nineteen sixty five and by the the time they were done not just with Medicare and Medicaid but with the anti-poverty programs and the enormous expansion of welfare and all the rest people had doubts and in one thousand nine hundred sixty six there was an enormous snap back in the midterm elections in Nineteen Sixty Eight the Republicans began around in which they won four out of five and five out of seven presidential elections with with Nixon in the middle of that of that followed by Reagan and Bush so our our politics the pendular work in our politics goes on and it worked in as we had we began in one thousand nine hundred sixty to have a serious argument about the proper scope and actual competence of government and that's I guess that's what you would trace the modern conservative conservative you kind of trace the modern liberal or progressive movement back to Wilson. I wonder if it goes back even to Teddy Roosevelt in some I think it does. Roosevelt was PROTEAN force some uncountable steam shovel in trousers. He was just an enormous energetic energetic. He got shot giving a speech and kept giving the speech he was he was in Milwaukee giving a speech. They shot him. He talked from our quarter with a bullet in his chest. Thanks to before it was even a term. That's that's that's straight up gangster. Teddy Roosevelt really if his his instincts were given a kind of philosophic codification Woodrow Wilson Roosevelt Despised Wilson who he thought was it was a professor and all these things that would not roosevelt was anti intellectual Roosevelt read poetry and seven languages including Hungarian. I mean he was extinguishing vigorous intellect but he was most of all energy straight through yeah and his theory of the the presidency was what he called the stewardship idea that the president is free to do anything he's not explicitly forbidden to do well uh-huh this was this interesting. This was the germ of the modern presidency. Woodrow Wilson says the following the idea of the separation gracious powers they said and the checks and balances that slows down our government was all right when there were only four million Americans and and eighty percent of them lived within twenty miles of Atlantic tidewater not run bought says now we're a great nation united by steel rails and copper wires wires and we need a nimble effective government that can't be inhibited by the separation of powers we have to marginalize Congress and we have to have emancipated presidency free to work while the man who came to work in Washington as Woodrow Wilson's Assistant Secretary in the Navy Franklin Roosevelt Teddy Roosevelt's distant cousin. had a whole new idea of the role of the presidency enabled by new technology color radio. Now we're so excited by the Internet and social meeting all that stuff we cannot understand how revolutionary revolutionary radio was to the American people and to some very bad people such as Hitler who found this this new way of communicating kidding with messages of people intoxicating effective when Roosevelt sat down to give his first fireside chat after it was inaugurated graded he began with two words the do not appear in the transcript of the broadcast. That's in the library at Hyde Park. The two words were my friends and now try to Imagine Austere Aristocratic Virginia Gentlemen George Washington to addressing anyone as my friends what is really diff- now. We've had a president who said they felt our pain. Bill Clinton and all the rest us. Oh this false intimacy between presidents in the American people is now perfectly routine but think about it ladies and gentlemen. Do you really want the president this president but everything you say is actually about this president I wanted to do you really want to be our friends. I want the president to fulfil his fundamental article to duty in the Constitution institution which is to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. The president is the head of one of the three branches of one of our many government want the idea that he is this kind of SACRA. Dodo figure the national pastor or moral tutor. The expression of our innermost US desires that consoler swimmer said that is investing politics with a a dignity and a semireligious just psychological function that I think is inimical to good government other well gopher it would only make the distinction between what you're saying good government and what I would call effective leadership possibly because we have to remember during that time it was the Great Depression. You know people were losing everything George. I mean as you don't have to tell you. You know people. It's one of the reasons why well I think Communism Kinda took hold for awhile to you know people are willing to try anything as its people didn't know if the United States even going to survive as you know during those times people were desperate. They had nothing and I believe that Roosevelt more than anything was comfort food for America during that time. I think you're right. He was human MAC can cheese. Yes exactly on wheels literally meals on wheels someone very much. I'm proud of that. One actually Moore says the Roosevelt meals on wheels on swire's. Lee said it roosevelt his philosophy was his smile. Yes and indeed lied. He said that when he said do we have nothing to fear but fear itself brand he said it is it's a civic duty to be cheerful domestic to think we can do this. I think it was Mario. Cuomo said Roosevelt got stood up from his wheelchair to get the country off. Its knees and it's quite right. There's a sense in which Ronald Reagan whose formative years as a as a politically we're the nineteen thirties Ronald Ronald Reagan who took over a country wracked by inflation had lost in Vietnam had Watergate at a president of not very effective Jimmy Jimmy Carter on the hostage crisis patriotic morale and along came Ronald Reagan and said cheer up can be fine and and optimism again was people are like what I'm he acted with the Monkey. Maybe he's okay. We don't know exactly but it is. It's interesting how the role of the president sometimes is at odds with the movement that could be going on or sometimes in line with it when you mentioned Roosevelt what kind of taking the mantle I it was interesting how you also talked about what you mentioned the triangle shirt ways factory fire which is also. I think an inciting incident where the reforms that New York kind of data now Smith was kind of the leader that who actually ran for President Twenty eight Roosevelt Stolz you know I mean some of the exact same programs that New York did New York did for very practical reasons you know we're kind of put on a national scale and it kind of talks about the divide between what's done on at the local level to help people for very practical reasons and then what the federal government stops for everybody is that they're sure for those are BAE. Ah Forgotten the day and you're kind of Arcane History Center high school civics class where they talked about the triangle surface fires. I think nine hundred eleven nine thousand eleven and end there was a fire at a woman's clothing manufacturing where mostly the people working were young immigrant emigrant women absolutely and the fire broke out and in order to keep the young women from pilfering cloth the owner of the factory had locked the doors source and when the fire broke out it was a catastrophe and enormous number of people died and the government of New York responded as as a model for the future in the country. We're not just going to correct things bad things happen. We're trying to prevent bad thanks from happening and was the germ really of activist government. Yes having tea that day and a cafe nearly shortwave factory was Francis Perkins who became the first Roosevelt's secretary of labor and the first woman cabinet member in the United States yeah so it's interesting that these live is both so now we have liberalism. Kinda taking hold in America with the new as you you kinda colored Middle Liberalism. The progressives were remarkably keble forthright as well as remarkably successful in rejecting the founders of Wilson didn't didn't pretty fired. He said the founders were wrong. Yeah they were. They are now anachronistic. We need to get rid of the separation of powers stronger presidency. We missed understand that people need regulated. Did they need experts to come in and progressivism became the doctor and concentrate more and more power in Washington more and more Washington power in the presidency presidency more and more power through the president into independent agencies what we now call the administrative state that will regulate American in life. The basic conservative objection to this is the government's cannot know enough about the doings of today. Hey there are three hundred twenty seven million of us in this country making literally hundreds of billions of decisions of day through private markets that 'cause a complicated society to prosper and when government says well. We're going to organize this what you get. Is something like you have today with protectionism actionism under the current administration the government is telling the American people what they can buy in what quantities that what prices through protectionism government it doesn't know enough to do this. what do you think Do you think that Goldwater made a mistake by opposing saying the civil rights legislation unquestionably. It was the biggest mistake of his career. No one ever thought Barry Goldwater had racist sentiments being integrated the Arizona National Guard the Goldwater department stores were leaders and desegregating Phoenix he just. I thought that there were a lot of people do that. I were constitutional problems with the public accommodation section and the rest unquestionably the two thousand nine hundred sixty four civil rights act with a public accommodation section and Loading Rights Act of sixty five two of the half dozen greatest acts of Congress Congress ever Goldwater was was wrong about that the way in which he was is wrong. It's kind of some of my critique about the way in which conservatism handles certain things in the real world you know 'cause I feel like conservatism. Services is is one of those things correct me if I'm wrong where the existence of let's say I'm kind of Venus. I Apologize. It's it's supposed those two beasts principles are these principles regardless of the situation. There's no moral relativism here. It doesn't matter what times we're in. These principles tables are true principles. Is that fair no okay sorry. That's what I asked. What prudent the fundamental conservative conservative virtuous prudence and prudence is the skill to apply principles that are crystalline and clear and and true but to apply them to messy reality okay? I'm conservatism is in this goes directly against your question. Christian conservatism is above all an acceptance of the messy -ness of life. The fact is in as Immanuel Kant said no nothing nothing straight she'll ever be made of the crooked timber of humanity and a society is confusing and democracy is tumultuous. Get get over it. Live with it because where you really get into trouble in politics is when you try to make it clear and tidy and not messy right a woman recently elected to the House of Commons in Britain gave her maiden speech and she said democracy is like sex. If it's not messy you're not doing it right and sounds like something Jefferson minus. This is a this is. This is an adult audience here. We can talk about these things and that again it goes back to God created rated. Men and women on lost control goes back to the conservative sense that government should control us. We want the fecundity. The creativity liberty the exhilaration the surprises shown come with freedom. Okay so my argument against that you know or I guess one reason. Why maybe I'm salty about that is that I feel. There's some instances where there are injuries to people where I feel. Government has to intervene and and racism. I believe is one of those injuries where racism was institutional. I mean it was against the Group of people you know the history of slavery. I can't imagine government government thinking well. Life is messy. Guys sorry one day. Maybe we'll get over one day. We won't that is unacceptable. Of course it is and Jim in Cro. Remember was a government program. Absolutely Jim Crow was a majority rule. Let me tell you where my conservatism comes comes from. I grew up in central Illinois. Lincoln country grew up in Champaign Urbana. My father was a professor at the University of Illinois. According to local lore it was in the champaign county courthouse a great red sandstone building on the square in her benef- that Lincoln and a very prosperous successful railroad lawyer was transacting business when he heard eighteen fifty four about the passage of the Kansas Nebraska Brassica Act Kansas Nebraska was written by another Illinois on a Stephen a Douglas the senator who said here's just how will solve the question of whether to expand slavery under the territory's we'll submit it to a vote popular sovereignty in the territories and that's what they instituted with the Kansas Rask Lincoln's recoil against that act launched his career in my judgment the greatest career the history of World Politics Lincoln said no America's not about majority rule majority rule is supposed to serve what America's about Liberty Birdie and when it doesn't we don't believe in majority rule. We don't submit everything to a vote or mob rule as exactly pitch and people tend to forget that that it was majorities liked. Jim Crow that's why they but those laws in place the south and they forget that when Brown v Board of Education The great school desegregation decision fifty four was was unpopular not just in the south but in the north how many of you remember the state from which the Brown case came and is Kansas Kansas is it was brown versus the board of Education of Topeka Kansas where they had segregated schools so of conservatism of my sort and I have a chapter in the book called the Judicial Supervision of democracy where I say conservatives have been wrong all these years saying we want the courts to defer to majority Jordan rule. No courts exist courts are derelict in their duty when they do not say there are many things that majorities may not do you look at the bill of rights is a is a tapestry of prohibitions. There shall be no abridgement of freedom of speech even if a majority wanted. What's it even Jordi wants an established church can't have it sorry because we have we have we want majority rule but we have hedged it in in the Great Madison Saint James and my church Great Madison said look we're going to have democracy we want democracy and democracy crecy means that majorities are going to have their way eventually therefore said? Madison we want majority passions to be filtered sheltered and refined through institutions to different institutions to house is interesting they different from the Senate we want aw judicial review super majorities veto veto overrides all kinds of ways to slow it down so that opinion can be filtered and moderated and made sensible madison wonderful phrase what he wanted with mitigated democracy and I think that's still a good idea. So why would you you brought up Jim Crow. Why would you think plus versus Ferguson. which is you know has? Has Its opportunity in front of a minority the in front of judges. Why did the right thing not happen. Well I have in my book. A makes wonderful Christmas Card David suitor the now retired Supreme Court justice skip a wonderful speech at Harvard. I quote in here at length in which he said why did did the justices think separate but equal was okay correct and he said well one reason was these justices were elder gentlemen so the civil war was living memory and separate but equal was so much better than slavery that they could not fathom it just did the social stereotypes didn't fit they could not fathom what was wrong with separate separate predictable even if separate at Beni which of course it never was sh- by nineteen fifty four slit the civil war was not a living in membrane slavery was not a living memory we had moved on and the nine justices said well no separate is inherently a stigma of a badge of inferiority and it has to go so it was it was just the Earl Warren in a another case unrelated had a phrase. It was quite right. He said the The volving standards of decency that marked the maturation of a free society and we our standards standards of decency have evolved. That's why he was earl. Warren was so interested in criminal justice reform rounded warnings warnings and all that before roar on was chief justice he was governor of the State of California before he was governor of California. He was attorney general before he was attorney. General it was a district attorney and he knew what went on in the back rooms of police stations and fast talk to Wendy's chief justice. He did something he was appointed by Eisenhower wasn't he s he was go. Water was not a fan of born right. No the circle is complete conservatism. Ho Said Many mansions yeah it It's a you had lots of factionalism yeah. Where do you put Ronald Reagan in that line is he. The fulfillment of the Goldwater promise is Z. bringing in something new to conservatism. Does he have his own ideas about it. He brought to sangster conservatism but buried did not have I remember Ronald Reagan and public career ignited when he gave a speech for Barry Goldwater toward the end in October sixty four right for elections called a time to choose it was actually written it and for Berry to give Berry read. It doesn't sound like me get runny to do it. Sixteen years later. Romney is president yeah largely actually because of a career that that speech ignited first of all goldwater was kind of cranky he was gruff abrupt. It served served him well when he was older because everybody loves every cranky on on your older it's fine. I am finding out the back act so he brought a cheerfulness Reagan dead but he brought go. Reagan was reconciled to the basic social safety net in a way that goldwater wasn't also goldwater was not reflective person. Reagan was ause people. Do it took an enormous number of people a very long time to begin to figure out that Ronald Reagan had sought the crucial the moment came when two of Reagan's former aides published a thick boy of his letters and people saw different Oregan. They didn't know a man who wrote who read. I remember when I got very early. On the bound galleys of of David McCullough's biography of Harry Truman and I was talking on the phone with Nancy Reagan it was a good friend and I said I'm reading these bound galleys alleys and she says Oh Ronnie's already read those he was a racist reader and again see people still surprised but uh that's another thing that he he brought to the to the presidency the goldwater would not have and yeah almost cheerful cheerfulness this and that sort of thing it seemed like conservative at that time and I may be conflating with republicanism and I'd love for you to speak about the differences of that too. Where do you make the distinction between Republican and Conservative because to me. It seems like there's intertwining of that. It separates it becomes this monster backs up. You know it gets redefined. I feel like there's a war right now between I wouldn't say Warburton Conservatives and Republicans but there's certainly lots war yeah yeah just trying to be kind. It's a war of if I have anything to say about it and I and I we went to in the Republican Party up today is more united than it has been arguably since it was founded in Beloit Wisconsin in eighteen fifty four. Here's what I mean by that. In nineteen twelve there was a huge split in the the Republican Party because Teddy Roosevelt ex Republican president wanted to be president again yes so he challenged his friend and men t William Howard Taft Comeback President for the Republican nomination he lost but the split was there that split was replicated lepre gated in the nineteen forties by the Dewey against the Taft Republicans in the nineteen sixties by the Goldwater Republicans against the Rockefeller Rockefeller today. There's no split today. The party is more the possession of the of today's president than it ever was Ronald Reagan's at the five hundred day mark of Ronald Reagan's presidency. He had the support of seventy seven percent of Republicans at the five hundred day mark of the trump presidency he he at the support of eighty seven percent of Republicans. There's no argument anymore and there's no conservatism. Protectionism is everything conservatism. Conservatism isn't populism is everything that conservatism busy populism says we want the direct transmission of public passions uh-huh through a direct leader who says only. I can fix it. That's everything madison was against medicines. At first of all passions are the problem in politics. We don't want leaders who aroused passions. That's what the the authors of the federalist papers called practicing the Popular Arts and they did not mean that as a compliment the word leader appears thirteen times in the federalist papers once in an Anodyne a reference to the leaders of the Revolution Twelve Times as a disparagement because leaders were threatened battened. They aroused passions indeed. That's what's happening around world. That's what populist do is rise bashes the year the current president or whether you're huey long and Nineteen Twenties and Thirties Louisiana that is the opposite of conservatism is authoritarian -asm or at the beginnings of it well. It's it it it contains the germ of authoritarianism authoritarianism. Our institutions are so strong and that's not a concern of yards. It really is a bumpy. Somebody will say the current president is authoritarian. Oh Good God. He can't get his two choices to be members of the Federal Reserve Board authoritate- real tyrants the Dayton land invade Poland. That's what they looked like solar. Do you think How do you think this happened. I mean when did the Republican Party realize. It didn't need conservatism. It only needed to be in power well. I'd say the morning after the twenty sixteen election didn't happen. We woke up. These Republicans. Were all for free. Trade not not trump's at no. You're not I said okay. We're not which indicates that some of them weren't terribly serious. People remember fewer than seventy eight thousand votes spread over three states Wisconsin Michigan Pennsylvania decided did this. Jill Stein had not been on the ballot for the Green Party. Hillary Clinton would be president today. so this is is a real narrow thing that happened. Do you think trump is destroying conservatism. I know conservatism is today a persuasion without a party and if it doesn't find a party to be vehicle it will wither and not be it. The Conservatives will go the way of the WHIG party but THE WHIG party. The Republican Party was at one point an insurgent third party party. That's what it's birth. It didn't put it put away the whig party for now. Conservatism doesn't doesn't have a home and if it pretends it has a home. It was quit being conservatism. has It's funny because gone back to Goldwater. Many people felt in in his later years. He was kind of more of libertarian he was called but I think conservatives are libertarians. American conservatives are classic. Liberals are number -tarian agreeance now that that that's not an iron doctrine. I'm a soft squishy libertarian in that I believe that before the government interferes was with the freedom of the individual or two or more individuals cooperating together. It ought to have a good reason and another say what it is in an auto withstand judicial scrutiny. That's all but that's basic garden variety Americanism. Why do you think we're in a time time now where it seems like the fringes and by fringes. I'll say you know normally what's happened in politics middle always seems to govern you know no no matter how you know who runs primers the middle ends up governing in most cases. You know there have been cases. Where maybe it's been closer to one side or another. You know we bring Johnson Johnson Roosevelt those kinds of examples Reagan on that side but for the most part it's done in the middle but now it seems like the ends of the of the movements both both the right and the left. I think this is truly one of those both sides. Now type of thing is happening in America and it's happening in a more powerful way because it's becoming Ming mainstream Why do you think that is happening. That's a good question. I'm not saying it's good or bad. I'm not making a qualitative bad. The the old old saying used to be that American politics takes place within the forty yard lines necessitate and it doesn't anymore in large part I think because of the nominating the process of the two parties which maximizes the power of the most ideologically intense the most ideologically intense tenths progressives are very progressive. Most ideologically intense Republicans are well to the right and because they dominate the nominating process remember this happen nineteen sixty eight the Democrats have a riotous convention literally and they nominate Hubert Humphrey who did not enter a single primary yeah. He's still win the nomination. The McGovern Fraser Commission Russian was appointed to democratize the process. They said we're going to get rid of the bosses. We're going to open it up to democratic majority rule so who they nominate them for years later McGowan George McGovern who manages the choices supposedly of of the majority and he loses forty nine states. It's because democratic processes aren't always democratic. Let me give them perfectly familiar to everyone in California L. A. -fornia initiatives and referendums are supposedly they were given to you by Hiram Johnson and the progressives of of the California passes this will make California more democratic nonsense what it does is it empowers the intense Organiz Compact Act articulate and confident minorities the dominate campaigns like that right now. Britain is paralyzed for three years now over the results of direct democracy. Let's vote on European Union membership Ed Bouchette fifty two to forty eight vote to leave. What does leave me. Hey they had no now they're saying. We didn't understand certain things we'll of course. It's not that's what happens when you don't when you don't have. Madison's mitigated democracy. You're slow things down and you have refinement through institutions and and you got the picture I feel like whenever aside loses they always want the most changes I think because hilary lost the popular vote and because Gore loss with the same thing which is why the dams wanted to get rid of the electoral college but believe me as soon as the dams win and some Republican gets a popular vote. Republicans will be lining up to get rid of the Electoral College -actly exactly but it is it. I don't know who will win the the twenty twenty election but would you like me to tell you. Mr Trump wields he will he will again lose the popular vote. That's a given that he will not win the popular vote and if three he's going to be reelected no but a I it's possible and say what is impossible is that he win the popular vote and that would mean that three of the last six elections could been in what had been won by the person lost the popular vote and at that point it becomes difficult to continue to make the argument that I will continue to make the electoral college service it would be very difficult to defend the Electro College of trump really loses that piper vote and gets elected. It would be very hard hard to defend your argument when it comes to political prophecy. I subscribe to the Zeke. Bonora Principal Zeke was the first base on a major league first basement of spectacular mobility but but he understood the rule of baseball boulder. You will not be charged with an error if you do not touch the ball very good. I like that Georgia's been so great talking to you about this. I feel like I can ask you so many questions but I have to ask you one very important question. Listen since you brought that up. How did it feel when the cubs finally won. it felt wonderful. It was in the laws of nature had been suspended. Are you prepared to wait another hundred years whether I'm not whether I'm prepared to do. I expect to have to look. I'm a baseball nut. Yes I only write about politics to support support my baseball habit which is so severe that my wedding ring which designed myself as the Major League Baseball logo. It's amazing your wife Life Maritime. Well it was part of the deal is my way of telling Mari my heart. She's ranks up. There are close to baseball after your first thing. It looks like it got the first base with her third base. Uh who went to the world series this year you have big. I'm a season ticket holder the nationals no who are in a hotel about a mile. I'm from here and I see the a best team doesn't always win and that's our hope ah mass sure what to make of that that is through the wit of George will all right so we go to some questions George the other question okay time ago questions just a quick reminder questions at live talks. La Typically start with a W. or an H. sometimes a d. they are generally short. There is no such thing as a two part question can and tonight giving rules or something you heard me Larry and tonight only Larry gets to ask follow up questions. How does the limited government conservative proposed dealing with climate change. How does limited government proposed dealing with fine rain -servative limited conservative government? How does limited government conservative proposed dealing with climate change got it you begin with cost benefit analysis it. I'll tell you what this conservative. Thanks people sometimes have called me a climate change denier it would be impossible to stay with greater precision the opposite of my view of course the climate changing because it always has been changing since central. Illinois was covered by one hundred feet of glacier. and I'm changed at that point the question is it sensible to assume that the activities of of seven and a half billion people on the planet can affect the climate shore I've just read a fascinating book called Nature's mutiny. It's about the little ice age of the late seventeenth and early eighteenth century and we have no idea what caused it probably the most convulsive climate change to to affect of humanity in recorded history. We don't know what did it could have been solar activity but either unusual sunspots at the time that nascent astronomical instruments were just being developed that we could record at that time rush long story short might this conservative says of course we follow the science wherever at least but we don't pretend the scientists settled we we also then say since we don't really know the mechanics extraordinarily complex mechanics next of the earth's atmosphere we say if the sea level is going to continue to rise in the sea level has has been rising for almost two centuries now well before we had a carbon based world economy is it cheaper to change changed the basis of our current civilization or to drake prophylactic protective measures against climate change so all I'm saying is you continue to be empirical. You follow the facts wherever they lead. I noticed when the intergovernmental panel on climate change produced one of recent reports the New Yorker magazine which is very excited about climate change it began its statement by saying the the panel's latest report which should be taken but unfortunately will not be taken as the last word on climate change re write that sentence and put in the last word on microbiology the last word on organic chemistry. It's nonsense. That's not what site there's no such thing as a last word forty years ago thirty years the last word was don't eat red meat about a week ago the will come to the evidence isn't as strong as we thought it was all. I'm saying is what conservatives conservatism is about facing facts and it's not about having a sixteen year old Swedish teenager come over and tell us to rearrange arrange the world because she doesn't. She's unhappy with things I am. I have for what I'm heartily. Ali Tired of saying the sciences settled everybody shut up and and that's that's because suspiciously in my judgment the agenda. The for fighting climate change happens to be exactly the agenda of progressive anyway which is to increase governments micromanagement of our lives. The government already tells us how much water can come through our shower heads. How much can flow through our toilets. What what the mileage requirements auto mail BILLS OUGHT TO BE. I I'm not quite sure that government is so wise and so full of mastery of the science of this that we can simply say everybody be quiet. The case is closed. There's no such thing as a closed argument Humana Scientific Real Rome. I have to say that this is one of those issues that I'm I'm very confused with at that point of view from from conservatives because these it's one of those issues and that's why I brought up the race issue where like the government can step up in for things for all of society. I'll give an example during wartime. It's perfectly fine for the government to tell us to ration. Absolutely you know and it's and it's prudent that third they're absolutely there's a cause that we're all in there for and people understand. Some people are salty about it. Buddy likes you know. Why are they going to tell me. I can't have butter in Tuesday's. You know that type of talk but everyone knows what they're doing. It seems like the objection let me conservatives have our to the methodology of the argument not the argument itself Flake for instance a teenager telling me what to do or I can't have straws or some of the extreme arguments rather than can we be good stewards said this planet in an intelligent way to even. Let's say that we're the BOOB to default in the middle. Can we do all we can. Almost take a and some advocates at the green new deal say almost think has lajor when it comes to climate some of the some of the some family advocates at the green new deal say yeah. We did it in wartime. Let's just put America on a permanent war footing now. I don't WanNa live in a society. That's on a permanent war footing. Let me there's this about the climate change rhetoric people that are now saying we are doomed. Boomed doomed on the planet is named unless we do X Y and Z that they know are not going to be done right. They just know that we are not going to retrofit every American building in the next ten years. We're not GONNA do it. We're not going to win. The the world off fossil fuels else in the next twenty years. It's not going to happen therefore if you listen at the logic this we're doomed. The fact is we're not doomed. The fact is that uh-huh the creativity of the of the human race and finding substitutes and in dealing with the unintended had consequences of human activity should not be underestimated as it is by people who say we know where the world is going. We we know the science is closed. We know that this is going to happen. We know that unless we do X Y and Z were domed and by the way we know we're not gonNA do Excellency or nothing can happen therefore we are not doing anything. I think it seems to me it. Ill serves the country to say. You're doomed unless you do something you know. WE'RE NOT GONNA share. Nothing in the green. New Deal is going to happen and the timetable suggested the green new deal nothing mix question okay. I will ask the question. One of the things that we have not talked about. Now likes some insight into the Conservatives incivility is on women's rights. I took control their own body because it seems to me that the issue of abortion reproductive justice seems to come up in being conservatives are like Mike quite okay with government dictating what we do with our body as I know you know the argument about abortion as vaccine because people on one side of it believe there is on the other side believe there is not to human beings involved and that's what makes this contentious and difficult to solve It's very hard to split the difference now. It is possible to split the difference. It's it seems to me that that people who you say there should be that it is unthinkable to have restrictions on abortion at any point through the through the nine and months of station of a human infant are kind of extreme frankly. There is no European nation not one it as an abortion regime nearly as permissive as the United States just thirteen eighteen weeks is considered extreme the outer limits of abortion in most European countries. We are abortion discussion. Russian got in a way hijacked and distorted by the Supreme Court which Enro- v Wade discovered constitutional constitutional significance in the fact that the number nine is divisible by three and they said we're going to have these supposedly a different regime for each trimester suppose the number of months involved in the station of human infant or a prime number. You're seven eleven thirteen. What would the Supreme Court of done with VAT if it couldn't have as I say discovered somehow constitutional no significance the fact is if we had a limit that said could only be abortions in the first trimester ninety five percent of all abortions that occur would be legal. It seems to me the extremists in this case are those us who say that a an abortion of a child in the ninth month of station is no more has has no moral significance in the removal of an appendix or a tumor are missing something what has changed in this country country has not been changed by argument. It's been changed by Siemens and General Electric by the makers of better sonograms. The people now see a nine week old fetus that has moving fingers and feeding heart and they said that that looks awfully like a baby and that that has changed the argument in a way that I think over time will be very very effective. Active is the conservative argument primarily. I don't think the conservative argument is necessarily against third trimester. Abortions is against abortions period. There are some there are some and by the way I mean. The argument is politically of course right there and look but there are conservatives who are pro choice and there are liberals who are right to life. This is not a an issue that cleanly falls. Is it more of a Republican Party issue. You feel more insertive issues it it it. It is impossible for someone to seek the Republican presidential nomination is not pro-life and it is equally impossible for a Democrat who is pro-life to seek the Democratic nomination I wonder if this is more of an issue the Fourteenth Amendment the whole issue of abortion. Shen enough. It's been tested in that way. What are the rights of the individual themselves about the women in the fetus actually have fourteenth amendment rights. That's that's that's why there have been person hood amendments and the person that amendment is a big is fraught with problems because then I'm a pregnant woman woman who drinks excessive alcohol is guilty of child abuse and they just but only if the if the fetus is designated as a person under fourteenth. That's correct which is why you don't want to does very interested. They visa arguments in all right. What's our next question. I wanted to say that and Ruben reading this as a teenager by Donald didn't always agree. I did love your efforts to convince me. I wanted to know you at the beginning. You talk about about the president being really just an ex executor's executive but then you spend most you talk talking about presidents. What is your prescription for Article. One Article One was has the the the Congress for a reason I think because it's supposed to be supreme. What's your prescription for breaking what is clearly a deadlock in and we could get congress has to be forced to go back to accept an supremacy under our system one way to do do this one way to do this would be for the Supreme Court to breathe life back into the non delegation doctrine that says the the in Congress simply cannot delegate to the executive branch essentially legislative powers President under both parties have been given by Congress is controlled by both parties essentially legislative powers. This president is doing with other presidents have done with he's. He's raising taxes. X.'s unilaterally tariffs are taxes paid by Americans collected at the border and they can do this because we've given vast discretion to the president's under the ability to declare an emergency or the ability to declare an economic necessity so congress has is to begin to claw back powers. It has given away and they can be encouraged to do that. If the Supreme Court will enforce the non delegation doctrine that the the first substantive words of our Constitution that is the first words after the preamble are all legislative powers here in Greenwich Begin to to a legislative to a congress the United States and I think it says bigly right after that it's just so that's part part of it but you see what Madison assumed he says in federalist fifty one we see throughout our system of checks and balances the process of supplying applying by opposite and rival interests the defect of better motives that is why we don't expect the government to be staffed with saints. Ain't we expect it to be staffed by proud self interested people who will defend their institutions rights and prerogatives he assumed that the house would fight with the Senate and the House and the Senate would fight with the executive branch and this would be healthy. What's happened to Sh- TO SHORT CIRCUIT. The separation of powers is the congress is so busy trying to do so many things that it doesn't have time to I do and so preoccupied with getting reelected which is why I favor term limits that Congress has simply given away powers to the the federal government to the executive branch for example L. Say. We believe America to have quality education you guys in the executive accurate branch right the details we believe in a clean environment you over there fill in the blanks but it's mostly blanks if you walk into. Senator Lee of Utah is his office you'll see two stacks of paper about that high and that is all the the laws passed by Congress and given session the other stack is eight feet high those are the rules and regulations generated by the administrative ready to state during the same time period gives you a graphic demonstration of how you're actually ruled. You're not ruled by Congress. You ruled by powers given away by Congress to unaccountable unknown faceless permanent bureaucracies. The state aren't hello first of all like to thank you both for such a wonderful and interesting discussion tonight's mister will I was very interested in your description of how the American system sort of puts guardrails off against majority will and in that light. I was curious as to what you think the relative strengths and weaknesses are the seventeen th amendment and what you might ideally like to do about seventeen. Th Amendment is tell them. Oh the direction of senators yes when Lincoln and Douglas debated in the eighteen fifty eight presidential campaign in Illinois no one listening to them could vote for them because they were elected by the state legislatures. They were until Nineteen nineteen twelve or nineteen thirteen. I guess when they passed that I I wish they had not done that. I I would you know a lost cause. I see one. I'm a cub fan. It's been one thousand nine hundred twelve for great. Thanks but I think having the senators elected by state legislature was a good thing because it buttress the federal structure of the United States and gave a different kind of constituency wherever we have the house directly relent elected by small constituencies in as the founders did it we had senators indirectly elected elected by state legislation. I thought it was healthy and I think it worked but again. I know a lost cause. I've been join advocate with so many of them have time for two more questions great so to bring back your analogy of or your image rather of the football field with everyone kind of being in between the forties. I'm still pretty strong believer that everyone does sit within those forties in throughout in my lifetime. It kind of seems like there's been a pendulum as a gauge that more or less every time it swings one way or the other side's there to smack even harder for the on the other side. What would be your way of correcting that air to stop the momentum clapback well. I I think you're right by the way that I think there is a pendulum affect in our politics and I think the center is real and the centre gets heard sooner or later so I don't despair of of I mentioned in response to your question that in fact the nominating process is undermining the role of the center but I think the center can reassert itself off. I think our political parties are very sensitive market mechanisms or to change an analogy that you you people are familiar with their seismographs and they respond to almost every tremor of opinion and and and properly Burma with proper rules. We'll get back to to hear into the the the center of the country the most interesting example of this right now is is the Democratic nominating process that you're witnessing because there are very few very little attention and being given to the candidates other than Mr Biden who tried to speak to the center nothing gets a political party in this country's country's attention quite so surely as thorough sound defeat and if the Democrats nominate donate someone who really frightens the the the country back into the arms of the current president the Democratic Party will find that really educational moment but you could have made this argument about trump when you know they had twelve people in that stage you know the Republicans everyone at at eighteen on the eighteen you know the exact same argument was made. What's wrong with these Republicans. Are you serious. You want that guy to be the face of the party. You're going to go down in defeat for the next ten elections of course he he never he didn't get a majority of the votes in the primaries he won. BEC- precisely because there were eighteen people out there and because they're eighteen people people on stage the most lurid stood out but on the on the democratic side and he's in the way get ready on the democratic side. I mean people people begin their campaign. I won't mention Senator Harris's name but when people people begin their campaigns with the I have a really really cool idea. Let's take away that private health insurance from one hundred and eighty million Americans who rather like it you begin to wonder how serious these people are well. That's yeah that's politicking pandering because it's the primary because Harris doesn't believe that as soon as it came out we're about like who I'm glad that's out of my mouth yes. She said but she sat in this seat took it back. She merely took a back. She knew her didn't quite immediately. He hasn't hasn't yet take. I'm saying she doesn't believe that believes that knows. I'm saying commonly Harris in in that. CNN townhall where she said. Let's get rid of private health insurance. She says it'll reduce the paperwork us. Loving beings reduce paperwork like turn it over to the government it meant. She said you know I talked to some people and I realized that's not what I think. so there you go but that's part of. That's I see I think all politicians. Let's do a version of that myself. Some our our final question for the evening Mr will went to the judiciary become. He comes so political I. I don't think it is political as other people think I I know the current president says there Obama judges and and trump judges and all the rest we have been fighting about the proper way to construe the constitution sense in the seventeen ninety. S Thomas Jefferson founded the University of Virginia primarily to produce lawyers of the sort he he liked because he despised his distant cousin John Marshall so the idea I don't but I don't call that the politicizing the judiciary. I don't think judges vote parties like look people judges have different sensibilities. We all have have different sensibilities. We cluster and we call in political argument colors. Political parties are two clusters but in in the schools of argument over how to construe the Constitution originalist textualist living constitutional there are dozens dozens of them now and this in the shadings are important and so. I don't think there's a binary choice where there isn't our politics. Obviously judges of a certain persuasion are going to rule alike and others not alike but I don't think that the four justices appointed by democratic presidents who all voted like more often than not are doing it for political reasons. I think they're doing it because they're following their convictions about how the constitution ought to be construed and I feel the same way about those on on the conservative side so I think it's a mistake to call it politics. It's it's something else it's more intellectual is more interesting and more defensible is more to the point that not so much about their character teurer or why they're voting a certain way but who's choosing them like people knowing that they're going to vote a certain way like Mitch McConnell. I mean if he fell it doesn't matter he certainly with Obama pick his Supreme Court justice but he knows it was important for him to pick because he knows how he wants justice to vote. Yes the net that since it is political right yeah partly because we have we have again because Congress to deal with it we have offloaded so many important decisions our society onto uh onto the courts and the courts in some cases. There's not sorry it's not our job. You'RE GONNA have to do it well. I want to thank Mr will end his conservative sensibility. George well man American

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6 - Go Negative

So You Wanna Be President? with Chris Matthews

39:49 min | 6 months ago

6 - Go Negative

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Thirty first twenty twenty so you WanNa be president. We've been talking about six timeless lessons from campaigns that win less than one win Iowa. It is hard to imagine how somebody who hasn't laid the groundwork who hasn't been at this day after day after day is going to make it less than two. If you see something say something you know. One of the parts of politics that we forget about is the daily necessity of a candidate to against the odds maintain and project good cheer and equity and a little humor if you can less than three remember the walls have ears. Don't say anything to one group. You don't one every voter to here in a way. It's more personal. Vote than vote for a member. Congress over the city council is they wanNA feel like this. Is someone who will have me in mind when he or she is facing the biggest decisions in the White House. And that's why I think these moments may matter more than they would for other kinds of campaigns less four know how to play from the back know how to turn a loss into a win. That's what a great politician does. They change the narrative to what they want to be. He's message was they do everything at me and they didn't knock me down. That's best point and it worked blessed five jump on the galloping horse of history as it flies by. We're talking about a controversial outreach. That was full of risk and yet here. We are years later celebrating a guy for doing the right thing. Now we've come to less than six. It's the oldest worst and most effective part of American politics go negative. There's no way to use your opponent's weakness any better voters say they hate it but it works stay with us with home security. There's two ways you can go about protecting your home. There's the traditional way where you wait weeks for a technician to a messy installation that costs a small fortune. Or there's the other way simplisafe simply safe is everything you need a home security system. It's award winning protection simply safe blankets your whole home in safety. You get comprehensive protection outdoor cameras and doorbells. Alert you to anyone approaching your home. Entry motion and glass break sensors guard inside. You barely notice. It's there but what's truly remarkable is you can set the system up by yourself. Anyone can do it. I'm speaking from experience here. And there's absolutely no trade offs for your safety. You'll have an army of highly trained security experts ready to dispatch police to your home at a moment's notice twenty four seven and it's only fifty cents a day with no contracts. It's why the verge calls simplisafe the best home security system go to simplisafe dot com slash. So you WANNA today and you'll get free shipping and a sixty day risk-free trial go now and be sure to go to simplisafe dot com slash. So you WANNA that's SIMPLISAFE DOT com slash? So you WANNA see WANNA be president. We're talking about less than six. For presidential campaigns go negative. I'm trying this time by Andrew Mitchell and Mike Murphy and my colleague and NBC she senior Washington correspondent for NBC News and host of MSNBC's Andrea Mitchell reports. And be so great to be with you. Great to be with you. And how and Mike Murphy has handled media and Strategy for Republicans running for president the US Senate and governor including John McCain Jeb. Bush Mitt Romney. Arnold Schwarzenegger is also part of his own podcast. Hacks on Tab love that title with David Axelrod Mike many. Thanks for being with us today. A great to be here all right less than six go negative. This is the kind of add you have to be ready to unleash. All and I said I era is are the stakes. You'll make a world in which all of God's children can live. You are to go into the dark. We must either love each other are we must die. Vote for President Johnson on November third. The stakes are too high for you to stay home. Well that's the famous daisy ad. From Linden Johnson's nineteen sixty four campaign against Barry Goldwater. It starts with a little girl pulling petals off daisy and then Kabu Nuclear Armageddon Andrew. The add drop two months before the election of nineteen sixty four. What the Johnson mean. When he mentioned the stakes he's trying to demonize Barry Goldwater the whole point was to say the Barry Goldwater was too right wing too. Scary would lead to nuclear war. Think of what the stakes were back then with missiles aimed at each other from the former Soviet Union and the United States and to clearly make him too dangerous to be president. Marcos as I remember it and I I'm so old I can remember. Actually what it was Johnson was going after go. What are them because Goldwater made the big mistake of saying I would let field commanders in the military? Make decisions themselves on the nucle- use of tactical nuclear weapons. That was really scary. Yeah I think that ad great by the Great Tony. Schwartz is Particularly Brilliant and pioneering and that it never says goldwater what it did was make the issue of nuclear itchy fingers on the nuclear trigger. The big topic of debate and that was the topic that goldwater because of his perception and I'm a goldwater sympathizer but the perception was that. Berry was a hot head. He had said that about the use of nuclear weapons so it pushed the whole topic of the bait into is Barry Goldwater GonNa Cause World War. Three which is never worked candidate wants to be and that's what negative ads often do. They change the topic of the election to a topic. That's bad for a particular candidate. And that was the pioneering. What why do it so why did LBJ do that? He was running as sort of John. Kennedy's you know afterlife. In a way he was running as a way to keep the new frontier going. There's all that sympathy. The country is largely Democrat at that time. Why would he go so nasty against a guy that was certainly the underdog? That's a great question and it might have just been his personality. Though I've I've never met a campaign that doesn't WanNa Kinda Bolt down the victory and by running that ad for whatever trigger. They had internally to be worried. They changed the whole topic of the election into a into a pit of quicksand. The goldwater couldn't get out of so when in doubt. Take no chances and that that was kind of a nuclear bomb of an ad in the campaign and it worked quite the irony is that Johnson went on with a landslide victory and got deeper and deeper into Vietnam which he had inherited and that war in the outrage against it is what cost him his opportunity to run for a second term. Let's talk about our media here. That ad only ran once in in early September September Sabbath of nineteen sixty four two months. Just wants it's hard to believe. An ad runs once but it was on Monday night Monday night movie the Monday night movie and in those days we had three networks. Huge audience just wants. Though a huge audience it was it would be the equivalent of having a super bowl ad really given you know the the scale of it and the fact is there was no social media. Obviously so there was no other way to transmit information rapidly so by buying that one add it immediately got swept up and it was picked up in newscasts and in newspapers as an example of how fierce the the debate was but not necessarily how negative the advertising was. You talked about the subversive quality. I Mike about the fact. They never say the word goal would never say that word Republican or Conservative or anything right that ad what what was it about. It was obviously a vote Frankenstein. The movie the monster coming up little girl. I think there is actually a scene like that in the movie the movie. What else about the fact that they feel intimidated after playing at once like we better not play with fire again or what happened. Why not a second? You know that. That's a great question I'm sure there was nervousness in the in the debate within the campaign about it because it was so untraditional the primitive sort of advertising using campaigns that but in addition to inventing this idea of shoving the topic to an area where your opponent is naturally A week and and therefore making the presidential debate the topic. How bad my opponent is it also began? What's now very long heralded? A tactic weaken the Salton. Snow that the press loves the cover at so sometimes you run an ad once or twice even now and the story of the ad generates his own several days a news coverage which of course is all free. So that was that was the topic changer. And it was so radical and so new and as you say it was at a time like the Beatles on it Sullivan where you know if you're on one of the channels you you get a quarter to a third of the country. That one shove was all they needed. I don't think they needed to run it again. The next thing Barry Goldwater answering questions. About how crazy are you So it was also where advertising and media coverage merged which is a staple now of campaigns engine is always about backfire some ricochet whatever and. I'm sure they took some heat from the Kona Center at the time that was too rough but about the overall effect was getting on people's minds it was implanted embedded in people's minds and it became the narrative of the campaign. I always a college kid and actually got to interview Berry borders the first question. We all add pen at ads. You do that college radio. Wow you had a template you ex-pm in the old days Scott Andrews a star The Johnson went because the bacteria engine. He went because he had so many things. I guess he had so many things. The emotion after the assassination as you say the country was still heavily. Democratic was not nearly as divided and the Vietnam War was not an issue at all at the time and the only foreign policy issue that really came to the fore was promulgated by this daisy ad the so-called daisy which only aired once but which became a very compelling narrative. So we're coming to nineteen eighty eight twenty four years later. Michael Dukakis was done in by George Bush. The first President Bush who went negative in that campaign. There are two parts to this. I A weekend furlough program. It was called for convicted life in prison criminals in Massachusetts so they were in for life but they're allowed to get out for weekends occasionally to keep them in good order Dukakis. He was governor of course Massachusetts. How did a weekend furlough program in that state? Make it into the presidential campaign. Well George Bush brought it up again and again in his speeches and in September two months before the election. This ad was dropped into the race Bush and Dukakis on crime. Bush supports the death penalty for first degree. Murderers Nukus not only opposes the death penalty. He allowed first degree. Murderers to have weekend passes from prison. Was Willie Horton. Who murdered a boy and a robbery stabbing him? Nineteen Times. Despite a life sentence Horton received ten weekend passes from prison. Orden fled kidnapped. A young couple stabbing the man and repeatedly raping his girlfriend weekend. Prison Passes Dukakis on crime. Well I don't think anybody who grew up during that period forgets any that well first of all it actually came up in the second and final debate and I was one of the debate moderators between Dukakis and Bush and it was brought up by Bernie. Shaw who was the lead of the debate moderators and he asked the first question. Only one question for him and then the rest of the panel got questions and I remember. I was preparing and asking about the nuclear triad and the budget and the budget deficit. He has one question governor. If Kitty Dukakis were raped and murdered would you favor an irrevocable death penalty for the killer? No I don't Bernard and I think you know that I've opposed the death penalty during all of my life. I don't see any evidence to the deterrent and Dukakis. He was struggling with the flu. Said Well Bernard and answered in robotic Komo emotionless way about what this hypothetical if his wife were raped and murdered like the victim and the Willie Horton case and nobody remembered anything else Out of that debate and even though Dukakis went into that second debate ahead in the polls he plummeted afterwards. You Know Willie Horton ad stuck. You gotta wonder about Massachusetts Culture. Because I've been that stuff sold it. That wouldn't a beaten him for reelection as governor that furlough program but to most Americans out in the rest of the week you speak for them because leading a lifetime for life prisoner who murdered people when a jury said okay. We won't execute if you give them life imprisonments. Basically the mentality that furlough program wasn't GonNa hurt but he caucus up in Massachusetts but and the rest of the country that that resonated. Yeah absolutely. This is a great example of how advertising in particular that ad which was sort of the match that lit the fuse. can take one small thing One anecdotal story and totally defined a much larger policy. I mean Dukakis CEO thoughtful. We had a great rate of of prisoners. Returning the Blah Blah Blah. But this one horrible story becomes in the everyday American discussion around the dinner table of what might the caucuses all about becomes the defining moment and the campaign. I worked on the Bush. Eighty eight campaign and the strategy was very much put Massachusetts and the policy as you said that works up there politically on trial. Because it doesn't work in Michigan or Ohio Florida and this was the great shining example and it was also an early example of how an independent committee that is not connected or coordinated by the campaign can can throw the match on behalf of the campaign and the campaign can say. Hey that was nice but boy. That seems like a big question about that. Willie Horton thing. What did he do? And then the campaign could do. Its own work. Yeah that was run by something. Called the national security. Political Action Committee was sounds like a built for the occasion organization. But I think it was a Larry. Macara Larry McCarthy. I think let's not get into that. But he says he Rallied THE AD said. He'd never had anything to do with it. But the Advertising operation working for directly for the Bush campaign for president. Soon put out. Its own ED to compliment that. Willie Horton it has governor. Michael Dukakis vetoed mandatory sentences for drug dealers vetoed the death penalty is revolving door. Prison policy gave weekend furloughs to first degree. Murderers not eligible for parole while out many committed other crimes that kidnapping and rape and many are still at large. Now Michael Dukakis says he wants to do for America what he's done from Massachusetts America can't afford that risk now. That was the white collar version. If you will of the shroud of Turin you know. The classic wanted poster of an African American Guy By the way Lee atwater always said he wished was a white guy to be blunt. I don't know whether that was true or not. But they thought they had the goods on just on the law and order without any ethnic peace. But let's go back to that revolving door you see guys going through like in a big tower business office in New Yorkers on with the door revolving as you come in and a mixed group of people a black may perhaps Hispanic. They mixed it up. They cleaned it but at the same time it was so overtly racist and so outrageously biased and ominous with the the pounding drumbeat behind the voice and it really for generation made it impossible. I think for anyone from Massachusetts to get elected president. I mean think about it. It became Massachusetts against the rest of the country. And I'm you know I'm not sure it didn't with other overtones effect John Kerry's well you know. I wonder Mike if the people in Massachusetts particularly Governor Dukakis who was good garment guy. I always thought of them. As sort of a Yankee good government against the old machine types when he was on the advocates all those years but they always package this with. Oh He's a card carrying member of the ACLU like he's a Communist a card carrying member. We needed a phrase or he wouldn't support punishing teachers for not leading their classes. In the a pledge of allegiance they put all it into a sort of an anti American point of view. They girlfriend people's patriotism. Yeah go ahead Mike. Yeah but it was one of the most liberal states. Yes and he did have that prison. Furlough Roy it was all true. I mean if the Democrats can run an ad saying Barry Goldwater is a Nuclear Madman. Is going to incinerate the planet calling out the fact that the liberal governor of a liberal state had a liberal policy on crime. I'm furloughs for prisoners. I think it was a fair shot. You can argue about the graphics of it. You can argue about the subtext but I put it right there with the daisy spots. Same thing a hard elbow based on perceptions people had and the difference between this and the daisy spot is that was Dukakis policy. Was that said the crowning or the crushing blow of the eighty eight campaign. I think tank Ed was was talk about the tanks. It's just called the tank add. This was attacking Mike Dukakis for being weak on defense usual. Sort of mean for the Republican side. They're Democrats are less for big military spending and Here's the I'd but the picture of it is the picture of a not a tall man but with a big helmet on in a big tank coming toward an m one a one latest state of the art. Abrams tank coming toward the camera. So let's imagine that picture Michael Dukakis's opposed virtually every defense system we developed. He opposed new aircraft carriers. He oppose anti-satellite weapons. He opposed four missile systems including urging Congress oppose the stealth bomber ground emergency warning system against nuclear attack. Even criticized are rescue mission to Grenada and our strike on Libya. Now he wants to be commander in chief. America can't afford that risk. The use of the word chief amended the diminishment of this guy and then to have him in the sort of rocky. The Squirrel costume at the end was devastating. The irony is he adjust given in Chicago a really good foreign policy speech that day then he goes to the same day to the General Dynamics. Plant get put on the helmet and gets in the tank. He looked like snoopy and it was so awful and atwater just at campaign headquarters in Washington slapped his hands on his knee and said we've got him and people were in the room said they were jumping with glee. They knew they had the video and that video became emblematic show. It starts over the picture of a guy in a tank. Just see the tank. You don't see Zenit way in the distance and is circling around. Obviously somebody's having fun doing these rotations around this track and then unbelievably it comes in right into the camera. Like they say how it up in one on Broadway right up in one look and he's smiling with that helmet on it's like it's like Halloween Mike. Yeah it's funny the there's an old Nixon ed against McGovern which is the same sort of thing. The voice over announcer reads all defense programs at the Democrat had opposed the McGovern defense plan. He would cut the Marines by one third and they removed toy tanks and toys shifts and everything was perfectly perfectly good spot and not infrequent from Republicans attacking Democrats for not wanting to fund defense programs. But what was great about this? One from an ad making point of view is will. You had the legit shots on all those defense votes. You had that great subtext of a massive Abrams tank prowling around Warren Michigan. I know that plant from my political work in Michigan. So Chrysler plant where they make the tanks are used and you have to caucus and he has to wear. They made him wear the regulation helmet which is enormous because our radio gear inside. The helmet is like one of those Star Wars how much you see the guys with the ridiculously huge helmet and every advancement of this day in both parties lives with the nightmare of no hats in the tank they said. Oh you gotta wear the helmet so that you can hear the radio. I guess it's regulation and Dukakis. Okay and he put on this helmet but the footage of the massive tank with the relatively small frame Dukakis with this enormous helmet head driving around. It was just the perfect visual metaphor and it was ails. I think who Who saw that? He had kind of a knack for that. That rock connection and that that image even though the voice over was bad enough that image got glued to caucus by television in a way that he can never shake and everything else. We can't crime from liberal elite member. Belgian endive during the primary suggestion for Salad. It just glued them in that box. You can never get out of it you know. I kept thinking that Michael. Who's a good guy? He's a good husband is certainly a guy. I'm sure there was something in that tank. They said always wear a helmet. He's such a goody goody goody two shoes he said. I've got to put the helmet. I'm sorry I got to wear the helmet procedure. The rules. He he was kind of anyway. He tried to fight back. He wasn't stupid about it. He saw this coming at him. He was told by Pros. This things killing you so he tried to do it. So here's an ad that they're people put on. It's a brief clip of the tank. Moment actually shows it and then it cuts the governor Dukakis who reaches down and turns off the TV. I'm fed up with it ever seen anything like it in twenty five years of public life George Bush's negative TV ads distorting my record full of lies and he knows it. I'm on the record for the very weapons systems. His Ad Sam against I want to build a strong defense. I'm sure he wants to build a strong defense. So this isn't about defense issues. It's about dragging the truth into the gutter and I'm not GonNa let them do it. This campaign is too important. The stakes too high for every American family. The real question is what we have a president who fights for the privileged few or will we have president fights for you George. Bush wants to give the wealthiest one percent of the people in country. A new tax break worth thirty thousand dollars a year. I'm fighting for you and your family for affordable housing and healthcare for better jobs for the best education and opportunity for our children. It's a tough fight. I know that uphill all the way but I'm gonNA keep on fighting because what I'm fighting for is Our Future. So what part? Remember the Statistics in that race injury and Mike were basically Dicaprio's up by seventeen points in the Wall Street Journal. Nbc Pohan August. He lost the election by eight. So that's a twenty five points shift and I think there was even more of a shift two or three weeks out. Was that it or was it started at start early. Then these ads. I started earlier but I think the nail in the coffin was that last debate. I remember coming off stage and Bernie showing yeah. I came off stage in the late. Great David Broder. I went to myself. Well what did you think he said? The campaign just ended. You grew that Mike that the The failure to respond emotionally and personally on. What would you do if your wife? Kitty were raped and murdered. Not giving us sort of a husband's response but to give a sort of somebody to Harvard law. School answer of was not the right answer. I think it was the final proof. Point in the case against who caucus and that race was very typical. What would come and presidential politics? Which is a candidate who had weak numbers? George H W Bush. Change the subject of the campaign to not. What's wrong with him? Who had been in public? Life is vice-president but what's wrong with my opponent you would later see. Barack Obama do that to Mitt Romney when Obama was vulnerable in his reelection campaign in my prediction is now you will see. Donald trump tried to do it to whoever the Democratic nominee is it is. It is a proven tactic and politics to change the subject from. You don't like me. Here's what's wrong with him. The Problem Dukakis had was at his tone and style plus his Massachusetts record all fit together into a very compelling case and against him and when he is there in that debate and he doesn't use that moment in front of so many eyeballs to dramatically crush it instead relying on ads like that which are stop the bleeding ads at best. They don't they. Don't put your really back on offense. He failed to do that. And you know case closed jury voted and that was the end of Mike Dukakis. You want to be president. We'll have more about less than six in a moment. Stay with us. We eat to live but food is so much more than that. I'm Andrew Zimmer chef world traveler and host of a new series on MSNBC. Join me as I explore our country looking at the biggest social and political questions of the day through the Lens of food this week from opioids to alcohol addiction has reached epidemic levels in America. See how the food industry is stepping up to help people on their road to recovery on the next episode of. What's eating America Sunday at nine PM Eastern only on? Msnbc HEY it's MSNBC's. Chris as this week on my podcast. Why is this happening? I'll be talking with the hilarious and brilliant writer Daniel lavery about his new book about life as a Trans Man. Growing up an evangelical household and the thing that. I was so grateful to all these trans people in my life. Four was this like we have all tried this. No one will ever be able to tell you to your satisfaction. If you are or you aren't you can try to chase that dragon but there will not be that moment so you can investigate these questions further. You can consider the options that are available to you. You don't have to do anything if not doing something becomes unbearable to. You can try something but it really is. You will have to be the person who makes that. Call this week on. Why is this happening search for? Why is this happening? Wherever you're listening right now and subscribe President Thank you. We're talking about less than six. For presidential campaigns go negative. I'm John Kerry and I'm reporting for duty and here's one last example from the two thousand four campaign if you had any questions about what John Kerry's Mehta just spent three minutes with the men who served with John Kerry I served with John Kerry John Kerry has not been honest about what happened in Vietnam. He is lying about his record. I know John Kerry is lying about his first purple heart because I treated him for that injury. John Kerry lied his Bronze Star. I know I was there. I saw his account of what happened. And what actually happened? Are The difference. Between night and day John Carey has not been on us and he lacks the capacity. The lead on the chips were down. You could not count on. John Kerry John Kerry is no war hero. He betrayed all his shipmates. He lied before the Senate John Kerry betrayed the man and women. He's served in Vietnam design his country he most certainly did. I served with. John Kerry John Kerry cannot be trusted swift book. Veterans for truth is responsible for the content of this advertisement show. John Carey began the campaign as the nominee of the Democratic Party by saying reporting for duty. Those famous opening line at the convention. In the Iowa caucuses of that Spring. He famously brought along somebody who helped save the life of who pulled the boat pull a guy into the boat under enemy fire so he had a really good reputation and he'd earned it with all the metals and everything how do the Republicans come up with this assortment of bad. Witnesses are strong witnesses. I don't know how they did it behind the scenes because it was flagrantly false but remember that he had testified to the Senate as an anti war veteran committee come to our committee is continuing this morning. It's hearings on proposals relating to the ending of the war and Southeast Asia this morning. That Committee testimony from Mr John. Kerry country doesn't know it yet but it's created a monster monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade and violence and who were given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history. That was his first appearance on the national stage and he had been a very prominent antiwar activist so it was still a divisive point of view within the military community and despite his leadership his leadership and Foreign Relations Committee and his knowledge of foreign affairs and his military record what he thought was clearly the opening line of his acceptance speech in the Boston Convention became actually turned against him as the way to undercut his credibility and it just destroyed him very early in the campaign marred. You think he could've played defense on a very effective ad was effective If he has come out not as a pro GI. Joe Have you come out and said you know what I'm well known for opposing the war but the soldiers that fought our great people or I was. I did my best in battle under battle conditions to explain. The fact he was kind of a hybrid. Politically was anti war in Massachusetts. But he did have a pretty good record. It just struck me that those guys is spoke against war. Knock didn't have a problem with his actual record as much in service as they did not like him throwing those medals on the ground in front of the Capitol. I totally agree the Kerry's challenge. Was You know? Most candidates say they have military experience. I like to talk about but carried been so controversial In the inner debates among veterans foreign against the Vietnam War right afterward he had been propelled into the national. Spotlight has such a vocal opponent. He had a lot of enemies who had credible war service to and they could go on television and bunch of them didn't add and create all this distance about who he really was. And I thought the Kerry people never really provided another narrative and punched through with a good out of. Hey wait a minute. You know the the this fight with my brother. Veterans is about politics. Not about those of us were there and those days and here's one two and three were there who could then be surrogates on television fighting back saying this is absolute political crap here Instead the narrative of hey wait a minute. He's a politician brags about his military service but according to people and those are very credible at least feeling people I was there. I saw that. That is a hard thing to fight back against and they never they never really in my view anyway counterattacked. In a way to in a way to beat it back to at least a draw and then changed the subject to what's wrong with you know the Republican. Why not yet? I honestly have no idea. often campaign sink when you're responding to it add you're providing fire and fuel and oxygen to the fire. That's hurting you. But that's kind of fire of you. Don't put it out. It's going to burn down the barn so I I. I don't know I really don't know but they got him on the defensive. I one of his biggest strengths. And that's the second part of this when you find a way to put somebody on defensive on something that was a big positive for them You really put him back on their heels and that is a very tough thing to get out of. Yeah most what should bottom line? Your bottom line is Michael as a pro is respond or don't respond or is there no general rule? There's no general rule in your response has to be a counterattack carry. Needed a few medal of honor winners from Vietnam staring at the camera and saying hey wait a minute. And he didn't have them. That's when you have to respond always about counterattack. You know. It's amazing. Guy Sow close. Not Two thousand. Four election ended up being after that. Pretty Nasty Swift. Boating has become a verb swift. Vote somebody now. I think that's the way it's seen as unfair the bullivant Ohio and and you know very narrowly fought election. And the fact is that Kerry really should have been a better candidate then. He turned out to be one of your candidates. Who was very successful. Arnold Schwarzenegger once said to me Michael Up. The only reason a run for offices a you don't like what you're doing and B. You're willing to kill the other guy meaning metaphorically film. Is that a big party candidate training that you have to tell the person. Are you ready to go really negative nastily if you want to win this race? Yeah most candidates want to get along. Although they have a lot of private petty grievances against their opponent. Much which a well-deserved but sometimes you have to push him. Come to understand that look. Don't wait until they've cut your head off before you try to cut their head off 'cause they're gonNA do it. So generally political consultants push candidates to go on the offensive and use negative tactics because they work. And because you're almost certain that if the other side not winning they will do it to you and defining the other candidate before it happens to you as always an advantage when in doubt it's like any kind of fight view get the first deadly punch in your in control the situation which is where you WANNA be. My brother ran for county commissioner of Montgomery County for years and he would say there is nothing like Andrea turning on the TV and having your family watch the negative ads against. I can't even imagine I could never imagine being a candidate for anything. It's embarrassing enough to be at all in public life in face criticism but to put your whole life on the line and then have that be destroyed that way and diminished Ridiculed in an ad as well as having a fake narrative put up distorting your real heroism as John Kerry had subject himself to is just appalling. The Best of you is being attacked. Well let's final question. We're going to get to the question of morality a have to bring up now. How many candidates feel bad after the run a really negative ad you i Mike Injury different quite how many people say God. Why did I do that was a rotten thing to do? Well not that many Partially because the slippery pole. They've been climbing to be in politics. They have been beat up along the way and so very few of them are How do I put it a sensitive souls When it comes to throw some elbows and politics because they've been on the other side of it either in that campaign or earlier one and they grow to kind of almost relish it. I I remember. I had a candidate once in a very tough campaign Was a rematch at the end. We won narrowly and we after elections little money left in the campaign fund and the Treasury came up and said the other candidate. is houses for sale. I think he's leaving the district. The guy won the candidate with some very nice guy but had been such a tough campaign looked with. Ici's island okay by the House. Burn it down. So I'm Andrew you've dealt with candidates of of lost elections bitter about. What did they say? That ad was awful and totally dishonest. These a lot of bitterness. Obviously after losing and a lot of blame making we also have to think about what happens now on facebook and fake videos and distortions and all kinds of other fakes. That are now also penetrating. But I don't think that too many people if they win. They really don't regret it. If they lose. They find ways to regret going negative Lee atwater. Who did the Willie Horton ad and others in that race? Eventually in a terrible brain cancer and before dying did apologize and did regret a lot of the things he had done especially some of the things he did in South Carolina in earlier races which were demonstrably went after guys for having electroshock therapy and he said he was like look hooking them up to jumper cables. That's the way talk. But in the end he knew what he'd done exactly thanks. Andrea Mitchell. Your pro as I say all the time the best there is thank. You someone's viewing not with you as Mike Mike Murphy. I've always been a fan. You seem to pick the right candidates. Thank you so much. I've always been a fan of Mike Murphy. Thank you both for you so you want to be president. We've been talking about six timeless lessons for campaigns that wind. I love this stuff and my thanks to all. My guests have been part of these conversations. So you want to be. President was produced by. Jim Waldman our theme was composed by David Shulman who also mixed and mastered the episodes. Steve Licht is the executive producer of podcast. Nbc News Tina Basque's executive producer hardball on MSNBC. We have production help from Julia clancey. Also Alison Bailey. Will Robbie Long Every Charlie Mack? Aroon Tasha French Lumley princess. Go the cash. Oh you WANNA be president. I'm Chris Matthews host of hardball on. Msnbc thanks for listening.

president Michael Dukakis John Kerry John Kerry George Bush Massachusetts Barry Goldwater Mike Mike Murphy Dukakis Democrats Willie Horton MSNBC President Johnson Vietnam Lee atwater America NBC Iowa Arnold Schwarzenegger Nbc News
Reconquest Episode 238: Dont Be Controlled by Fear!

CRUSADE Channel Previews

10:43 min | 3 weeks ago

Reconquest Episode 238: Dont Be Controlled by Fear!

"Don't do that to your children. Please parents Saint Paul wrote this to the relations and Galicians for six quote, and because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his son into your hearts crying. Abba, father. Our Lady of Guadalupe told Saint Haunted yego quote. Am I not here who am your mother I'll give the rest of that quote later. By the way It's important in relation to fear here. These images of fatherhood and motherhood must have positive connotations children's minds, then holy chaste and filial fear will be more possible for them. It is a certain truth of the spiritual life that we can pray for those spiritual good that we need so a suggested prayer for the gift of fear of the Lord comes from the Psalms and it goes like this. It's from Psalm one eighteen verse one twenty is its longest psalm in the book of Psalms. Pierce Down, my flesh with I fear for I am afraid of THY judgments so there we've considered. Where fear should be in the spiritual life, and if you WANNA get all those references that I just gave, they'll be a link from the Congress and on page to an article that I recall fear, holy and unholy. But what I'd like to do now is is pivot and talk about the manipulation of fear. That's that's been long going on in in advertising and in the press. and which is kind of the the the prequel the backdrop against which the current corona sham. DEMOC fear is placed so. There's a there's an article called the manipulation of the American mind and it talks about The excuse me the manipulation. American Mind Edward Bernez and the birth of public relations, this is on a website and I'll have a link to it called the unbound spirit dot com, the articles by a man named Richard Gunderman now have to say about Edward Brenes He was a nephew of of Sigmund. Freud and And he used a lot of Freud's ideas and sort of weaponize them for propaganda purposes affect. You wrote a book called propaganda. He weaponized them for propaganda purposes, and also after one where he worked with Wilson and propagandizing for the war. He also you re purposed those very principles sort of weaponized Freudian stuff in what he himself called public relations. He's the one who came up with that term. all right which itself is kind of manipulative calling in public relations, probably e Michael Jones in his book that I already mentioned libido domain Andy talks about and Reuben as at some length in the book, so you can find multiple treatments of this guy. so I'm from that article again. by Richard Gunderman, often referred to as the father of Public Relations Brenes in Nineteen, twenty eight published his seminal work propaganda, in which he argued that public relations is not a gimmick, but a necessity. Listen to this quote. The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. He's talking about the united. States he was an Austrian, but he but he's writing in America. He grew up here. We are governed. Our minds are molded our tastes formed, and our ideas suggested largely by men we have never heard of. It is they who pull the wires that control the public mind end quote from burn continuing with the article from Gunderman. Bernez came by his beliefs, honestly born in Austria and eight, thousand, nine, hundred one, the year Sigmund Freud published one of his earliest papers. Brenes was also Freud's nephew twice over his mother was Freud Sister Anna and his father Eli. Brandeis was the brother of Freud's wife Martha. The year after his birth, the Bernez family moved to New York and Bernez later graduated from Cornell with a degree in agriculture, but instead of farming. He chose a career in journalism, eventually, helping the Woodrow Wilson Administration promote the idea that US efforts in World War One were intended to bring democracy to Europe. Having seen how effective propaganda could be during war, Bernez wandered whether it might prove equally useful during peacetime. Yet propaganda had acquired a somewhat pejorative connotation which would further be magnified during World War Two so as promoted the term public relations. Drawing on the insights of his uncle Sigmund, a relationship that Brenes was always quick dimension. He developed an approach. He dubbed the engineering of consent. The engineering of consent, he provided leaders the means to quote Control Regiment, the masses, according to our without their knowing about it and quote to do so it was necessary to appeal not to the rational part of the mind, but to the unconscious. Now this would of course be hid. It's e Michael Jones, I believe the it doesn't exist. It's bad anthropology, but this is what Michael Jones said is just. Just the passion I think he's right I mean I. think it as such doesn't exist, but it's. It's just Freud's for the passions, so the unconscious. This is brother Andre Marie. You'll into reconquest. We are on episode number three hundred, and no sorry, zipped ahead. One hundred, two hundred and thirty aides were talking about Don't be controlled by fear so moving right along through the article by Gunderman So we don't. Appeal to the rational part in in public relations and media manipulation. But to the unconscious, okay, this precisely is bad rhetoric, right? That's what I was talking about before right? Good rhetoric appeals does logos. There's Ethel's Pathos in that order here. We've got PATHOS PATHOS PATHOS, and they're calling it. The unconscious continue with Goodman's article. Brenes acquired an impressive list of clients ranging from manufacturers such as general. Electric Procter and gamble and the American Tobacco Company to media outlets like CBS and even politicians such as Calvin coolidge to counteract president. Coolidge is stiff. Image brings organized pancake breakfasts and White House concerts with Al. Jolson in other Broadway performers with Bernez help. Coolidge won the nineteen twenty four election. Brenes also used fear to sell products. Listen to this is I laughed and I read this. This is so current Dixie Cups. Bernez for for Dixie Custovic Quiz? dixie cups bad name I I. Don't know what we call them today. DIXIES, but the dixie chicks just became the chicks now they never had any merit. As far as I'm concerned, but now they have even less, and and what they ended up with something, purely pejorative in the in the chicks, but okay, so we're on my Dixie cups for Dixie Cups. Bernez launched a campaign to scare people into thinking that only disposable cups were sanitary. Imagine that, so you scare people to think that other cups or other drinking vessels sanitary, because after all other people had their mouths on them. Yuck, and germs, germs germs sound familiar. As part of this campaign, he founded the Committee for the study and promotion of the sanitary dispensing of food and drink. He started a complete shell. Organization To launch an advertising program for Dixie Cups. So that people would spend insane amounts of money on wax, coated paper cups at fall apart very easily. so okay enough of the of the quote from the woman articles very informative article by the way I have linked to it from the re congresswoman page for this show. Fear and advertising is very very common. There was a famous attack ad in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty four. That helped to get Lyndon. Johnson elected. You can find that ad on Youtube. It helped him to beat Berry Berry, goal water, it's the daisy commercial, so it showed a girl. You know picking pedals off of a daisy, and she's counting up to ten and very cute Lee. She messes up the number I think she verses six and seven, but she counts up to ten, and then the daisies suddenly empty of pedals and then. Then she looks up and there's this eerie freeze frame right, and you see a cute little face with freckles on it with a slightly disturbed look on it and I I imagine that the director had to work hard time. It gets cute, little kid to look eerie, but he did it Dang it and then as soon as if the freeze frame habits as well as maybe a second or two of looking at her face, and then you hear a countdown from ten down to zero, and then you see. A mushroom cloud will what was the effect of that? What was the purpose of it well? They were framing Barry Goldwater as a warmonger, and at the end you get, this is blowing black and white, ninety sixty four, and at the end you get a black screen white letters promoting Lyndon. Johnson saying you know, don't stay home on election day. You can't afford it. It was clearly a an appeal to fear if you if you vote for Barry Goldwater, or if you don't out and positively vote for Lyndon. Johnson were all going to get nuke to death including the cute little. You know freckle-face Girl. That's count counting discounting her daisy pedals. that's a perfect example, and the and particularly you know disgusting example, of a fear being used to sell. Politicians a greater s you know. If you don't vote for me, we'll go to war. If you know for me, you know the enemy will invade us, and and because because he he'll be a wimp on foreign policy.

Sigmund Freud Edward Brenes Edward Bernez Dixie Cups Michael Jones Lyndon Johnson Gunderman Richard Gunderman Barry Goldwater Calvin coolidge Saint Paul Bernez Abba Guadalupe Saint Haunted yego Galicians Andre Marie Brenes
Episode 60 Kennedy Ervin Bill Part 1

Labor: Know Your Rights

23:52 min | 4 months ago

Episode 60 Kennedy Ervin Bill Part 1

"Hello listeners this is Labor know. Your rights podcast. I'm your host Dave. This episode is brought to you by the National League of Justice and security professionals where the members come first contact information can be found in our show notes including our toll free number where you can leave a message. Ideas for future. Episodes are tell us about events. Campaigns are victories in your union. Please check out. Life on record Hey listeners labor no you're raves will be changing our host in the near future we have a new. R S speed with a slight change in her name to Labor. No you're right V. to version two. We did this. We could check out our new host while maintaining our old host a temporary basis. All our past episodes are available by searching for our new name on the application. Used to get our podcast now. In a couple of months you will want to be using the new name as we will be losing the current R. S. S. fee. I apologize for the inconvenience but filler. New Host has better tools and should make our podcast better This series will be on the Candy Urban Bill better known by its finally of the Lenham Griffin Bill after the last series which mentioned several labor reform laws. I felt it was important to discuss these laws. I came across a lot of information on this bill in particular which I thought was important to discuss. How this set of reforms were brought about as this set of reforms. Were very controversial on January twentieth. Nineteen fifty-nine Senator. John Candy introduced in the Senate on behalf of himself and Senator Sam urban a bill providing for the reporting and disclosure of certain financial transactions and administration of trusteeships by Labor organizations and employers to prevent abuse in the administration of the trusteeship by Labor organizations to provide standards in elections of officers Labor organizations in one thousand nine hundred fifty eight candy. Cosponsored a bill with Republican. Senator is a much milder. Labor Reform Bill which the AFL CIO endorsed and opposed by employer groups because it contained no restrictions on union secondary boycott practices and compulsory unionism impose reporting requirements on employers for expenditures Labor Relations when the bill passed the Senate by eighty eight to one. But when the bill was referred to the House Committee on Education Labor Representatives Ram Barden Democrat. North Carolina. Made it clear it would die in committee. The obvious reason since he was for strict labor reform was a nineteen fifty. Eight was an election year for Congress and not a good year to introduce a controversial bill. Senator Barry Goldwater Republican from Arizona. A long proponent of positions held by management groups accused Speaker of the House Sam Rayburn Democrat from Texas of obstructing the bill for fear. The House Committee would make the bill more effective. Neither party was strongly in favor of a Labor bill in nineteen fifty eight the interest in this bill scratch at the interest in a labor reform. Bill only rose to that level in one thousand nine hundred ninety nine due to the release of the first interim report of the Macleod Meaty in March nineteen fifty which stimulates public opinion of the need for labor legislation. The Republicans blamed the failure of the bill passing on the Democrats who controlled Congress and the Democrats pointed out. The bill was killed by Republican votes when it finally reached the floor of the house. Vote against the bill on August. Eighteenth nineteen fifty eight was one hundred ninety eight two hundred ninety with majority made up mainly of Republicans and Southern Democrats who opposed the bill because they were not allowed time under the to men and stiffen the bills reform provisions the F. L. She was Ford the bill so much that they have appealed for passage. Mcclellan Committee officially known as the Senate Select Committee on improper activities in Labor and management under chairman John. Mcclellan Democrat. Arkansas was assisted by J of Case Brother Committee Special Counsel Robert Kennedy be conducted. Well publicized hearings for two and a half years from nineteen fifty seven into nineteen fifty nine and produced many allegations of misconduct in labor management relations. George Mooney president of the AFL CIO amid. But he had not imagine. The situation was so bad. The community heard one thousand five hundred twenty six witnesses in two hundred seventy hearings. They published forty six thousand one hundred fifty six pages of testimony to interim report on its findings. These reports showed many incidents of corruption violence and racketeering. Most of the testimony concern misconduct by Union facials especially the International Brotherhood of teamsters. Though the use of union busting Labor Relations Consultants by management personnel was also highlighted. The newspapers had months of headlines on these scandals but by far televised hearings were far more effective on affecting public opinion. These typically went like this and individual known to be involved with the Syndicate had police records and background read out and questioned on their union affiliations. The committee members would ask them questions about alleged criminal. Actions are unethical practices in labor management. Matters questions which brought outraged denials from the witnesses are more often a minute. Not s repetition of taking the Fifth Amendment Against Self Incrimination. The committee looked into the handling of funds. Especially Pensions and welfare money. They proved to the public that there was many irregularities involving various teamsters locals including the international's President Dave Beck who had helped themselves to the Union. Treasury this resulted in -pointment of minors by a Federal District Court to direct reform of this nation's largest and most powerful union. These reports reached an informed public the Press Management Union members and Congress of the urgent need for better labor laws. Another background issue. That must be kept in mind during this time was long bitter contract negotiations struggle between the major. Us still companies in the United States. Still Workers Union being negotiations in propaganda by both sides through the nineteen fifty-nine Congressional session and was most important Daily News as July. First Nineteen fifty nine. Striking be near who still industry was the most important industry giant plants hundreds of thousands of employees high wages big prophets cost and urgency to the issue of new labor laws. Many involved seeing this from a political viewpoint senator candies ambitious to be nineteen sixty democratic nominee influenced his sponsoring of this bill. He needed the stature but also had to have a bill that would not antagonize either Labor or management the Kennedy Urban Bill would give him name recognition publicity and a happy public others who had political motives is Lyndon Johnson Democrat from Texas Senate Majority Leader as such responsible for the entire democratic legislative programme. Who was known as a southern conservative in having ambitions for the Democratic presidential nomination in nineteen sixty also this was the summer of Nineteen fifty nine twenty two ever congressional sessions of Congress had considered labor legislation and had failed past one since the Taft Hartley bill in nineteen forty seven when Senator Kennedy introduced the Bill Given the Title S. Five O. Five it was passed onto the committee on Labor and Public Welfare. Who passed it onto the subcommittee on Labor Kennedy? Was the chairman of this subcommittee. The other members were Pat McNamara Democrat from Michigan Way. Moore's Democrat for Morgan Jennings Randolph Democrat from West Virginia. Barry Goldwater Republican from Arizona. Everett Dirksen Republican from Illinois as and Winston prouty Republican from Vermont. They held hearings on this bill and five other. Labor Reform Proposals hearing testimony from twenty two witnesses statements for the record received from thirty five people representing Labor organizations twenty-one from management groups and several groups representing the public interest major weaknesses include Godfrey Schnitt a New York. Attorney acting as one of three quarters of the teamsters Professor Archibald Cox Harvard Law School in Authority on Labor legislation who was voluntarily assisting Senator Candy while the Labor Bill was under Consideration Secretary of Labor James Mitchell Senator McClellan and Andrew B Miller representing the F. L. CIO in nineteen. Fifty Mitchell. Post passage of the Kennedy Ives Bill Now in Nineteen fifty-nine Candy was pressing again. Free Labor Bill Candy was prepared for Mitchell's testimony fifteen minutes before Mitchell statement included which supported the administration labor reform bill s seven. Forty eight a copy of Kennedy's replay was being handed out in the subcommittee room despite it being clearly marked for lease upon the conclusion of testimony at the individual's testimony can you began questioning some of the provisions of the Administration Bill. He claimed the bill would punish honest locals by depriving them of National Labor Relations Board Services S A result of the dishonesty of individual officials of the locals. Neither Mitchell are Stewart Rothman Labor Department. Legal Aid could argue. The candy was wrong at admitted that Kenny might be ray. When candy quoted a section of the Bill Rothman could not find it and Mitchell asked for a recess to go over the Bill Showing Candy. New the bill better than it spokesperson. The bill was my fight by the subcommittee based on testimony and recommendations it had received two which strengthened the bill. Eventually no further agreement could be reached candy suggested the bill be moved to the full committee for further consideration. Moore's made a motion to that effect. Those for the bill felt they had nothing to lose having a majority and sympathy for the bill in the full House. Tempers were growing and they felt it was best to prevent hostile feelings but those who opposed the bill goldwater did not oppose the suggestion. Possibly he felt he could gain more support in the FO committee. Are you realized the majority opposed for their changes at that time? The committee then considered the bill now known as s one five five five and a number of substantial changes were made Senator Goldwater in Dirksen. Took credit for those changes in the minority report which they filed s alone dissenters in a final thirteen to two committee to report the bill to the Senate. The changes are one exclusion from union. Office for failure to file information required by the bill to stricter reporting of union salaries and other disbursements past conflicts of interest and any loans to officers and employees three stricter reporting requirements of unions disciplining finding and suspensions or weaker requirements for employer report under the Act five provision that the act would a pre rates states to punish the same offenses under state laws. They fully intended to seek. Further amendments on the Senate floor senator. Prouty sympathized with them but voted in favor of reporting the bill believing it was the only way to assure some labor legislation during the current session majority leader. Johnson in March suggested to minority leader in that the comedian fillet reporting the bill until the house acted on Labor Reform. Johnson but has would kill the bill as they had to the labor reform bills in nineteen fifty eight. He also spelt say tracking. This bill would be flayed charities prestige in hope for winning the nomination for the presidency during some proposed the delay to the committee but it was rejected. The committee agreed to delay consideration of the controversial. Taft Hartley amendments proposals. Sure bring on long and bitter debate. That would likely kill the labor reform. Bill Democrats suggested a twelve band. Blue Ribbon Panel of Labor La Experts under the chairmanship of Professor Cox charged with studying amendments to the Taft Hartley and submit recommendations to the Senate later in the session. Debate began on April sixteenth. Nineteen fifty eight more than one. Hundred amendments were already awaiting in the upper house and many to be introduced. Time was a major consideration on which amendments would be heard and who would be the first to speak was center urban co-sponsor of the bill. He went with candy. Plan of separating the bill from the Taft Hartley amendments contained entitled six. They were considered generally as pro-labor go after and McClellan endorsed urban amendment. Mcclellan promising not to propose controversial minutes to the Taft Hartley Act for inclusion in the Community Urban Bill If candy would agree to drought title six senator. Carl Republican of South Dakota Vice Chairman of the Senate Rackets Committee then spoke for an hour in support of urban amendment and the debate was continued on April twenty first goldwater had the floor next who threatens that days and days of debate would be consumed in discussing other. Taft Hartley amendments in less title. Six was dropped from the bill. He wanted to Kennedy to wait for the Blue Ribbon Committee. Recommendations regarding the Taft Hartley amendments and hold him so Janati replay that he could not in any case buying the sent not to consider other amendments to Taft Hartley. Win At pleased. Senator Jacob Javits. Republican New York spoke in support of candies physician claim that title six provisions regarding the building and construction trade workers. No Man's land and the problem of economic strikers voting rights in representation elections had to be dealt with in the present. Bill Senator John Cooper Republican of Kentucky my Nordea member of the Senate Committee Labor and Public Welfare. Also four Kennedy's position. While Democrat Senator Waesche and S- matters of Ohio and Florida respectively spoke briefly on behalf of the urban amendment after an interruption the majority whip proposed limitation of further debate on the amendment to twenty minutes which was adopted unanimously. Speaking in conclusion satire. Urban said he believed BA- candy is. Bill was defeated because of the unimportant. Taft Hartley Amendments in Candy concluded his argument by pointing out that Secretary of Labor Mitchell himself suggested the topics entitled six a row. Kobo resulted in twenty seven days and sixty seven days. Defeating the Urban Amendment Sayer. Dirksen started and other debate by proposing a substitute for title six of the Candy Urban Bill by taking exact wording from title five of the Administration. Bill Johnson consoling with Dirksen and Goldwater proposed a two hour limitation debate of the Dirksen Amendment which limitation was approved goldwater. Explain that the Dirksen include other. Taft Hartley amendments in addition to some of those entitled six would obviate necessity for further. Taft Hartley amendments a reversal of his physician. That the Senate wait for the Blue Ribbon Committee Recommendations Kennedy speaking against the Dirksen Amendment warned that under Senate rules. Further amendments could not be considered dealing with topics contained in the administration bill substitute for Title. Six of his bill. The vote proved lopsided for Kennedy. Twenty one in favor of the Dirksen and emit to sixty seven opposed goldwater offered a minor amendment regarding the definition of a union officer with the debate was continued to the next day the next day. Mcclellan submitted several amendments to the Candy Urban Bill which were ordered to lie on the table N. B. Printed and the Senate resume consideration of the Goldwater Union officer amendment. There was no quorum. The vote was two four zero against candy returned to the Chamber at this time and Goldwater asked that the vote be reconsidered and candy and go. Bader had a heated debate candy and Goldwater talked and Kennedy proposed a new definition which was approved senator. Mcclellan introduced his bill of Rights Amendment McClellan and Kennedy were good friends but Goldwater knew that any hope to get serious stiff nurse into the law. Kenny Urban Labor Vail would have to have the support of McClellan who had enormous prestige in the field of labor reform as a result of his rackets committee Goldwater persuaded. Mcclellan that he would have to fight Kennedy on this issue. Part of that persuasion was in the form of pressure by business groups whom goldwater induced to bombard McClellan with letters after a two hour speech to the Senate in which he spelt out the drastic need for stiff labor reform legislation. This brought up for the first time. A serious departure from previous federal legislation action in the Labor area McLellan's bill of rights put the federal government in the mill as a regulator of internal union affairs before this federal legislation affecting Labor management relations head confined itself to regulating the conduct of relations between management and Labor. Cleese share. This podcast with your family and friends. If you like our podcast please rate us on. I tunes it helps others find us if you would like to contact us. We have various ways to so in our show notes along with contact information for the National League of Justice and security professionals. Thank you for listening.

Senator Kennedy James Mitchell Senator McClell Labor Senator Goldwater Labor Reform Bill Candy Bill Bill Johnson Taft Hartley Senate Senator Candy Bill Senator John Cooper Senator Barry Goldwater Bill Democrats Bill Rothman Union union busting Labor Relations Congress National Labor Relations Board Senate Committee Labor and Pub
Chris Bedford | The Coming Rebellion

The Charlie Kirk Show

37:03 min | 3 weeks ago

Chris Bedford | The Coming Rebellion

"Thank you for listening to this podcast wine production now available on Apple. PODCASTS podcast one spotify and anywhere else you get your podcast. Hey everybody. One of the most fun conversations I've had recently is with Chris. Bedford from the federalist. You're going to really enjoyed this conversation. He's wicked smart as a great wit about him, and really has unique take on the issues, and has been ahead of the curve for years honored to call him a friend. Please email me your questions freedom at Charlie. Kirk Dot Com freedom at Charlie. Kirk Dot com get involved a turning point. USA ATP USA. Dot Com teepee. USA DOT COM. Also, if you want to win a signed copy of the Maga- doctrine, type and trolley, Kirk show hit. Subscribe, give us a five star review screen shot an email us at freedom at Charlie Kirk Dot. com freedom at Charlie Kirk Dot Com fun conversation store. Buckle up everybody here. We Go Charlie. What you've done is incredible here. Maybe Charlie Kirk is on the college campus. Won't you know we are lucky to have Charlie Lico? Charlie cuts run in the White House. I want to thank jollies incredible guy, his spirit. His love of this country's done an amazing job. Building one of the most powerful youth organisations ever created turning point USA we will not embrace the ideas that have destroyed countries destroyed lives, and we are going to fight for freedom on campuses across the country. That's why we are here. Hey everybody welcome to this episode of the Charlie Kirk show super thrilled to be joined by one of the smartest and witness people that I have had a chance to get to know Chris Bedford. WHO's a senior editor at the federalist? Chris Welcome to the Charlie Kirk show. Thanks for having me, so I was really. We spent time together last summer an undisclosed. Location fishing somewhere. And you said something that was super interesting. That I've used in reused with sometimes giving you credit where you say. You said that this Marxist Movement narcan is one of the first ever. That is against the country. They're trying to take over. Can, can you? Let's just start with that? Can you elaborate on that because that is a very? Just Prussian observation that I don't think enough people realize well. Thank you for that. That was a really good trip I. Still Actually haven't worked my way through my house fish. From that trip yet I'm not very good at eating salmon or cooking it. The the problem weird thing about America's last is I. Don't think they've got a real place in history outside of maybe some of the anarchist, certainly not with the traditional left of how much they hate this country I mean if you look at the. Previous more modern left wing revolutionaries from the Nazis to the Communists. The Bolsheviks. All of these groups were fiercely fiercely patriotic. They had different ideas about what the country should be. They didn't like the czar. They didn't like the Jews or they didn't like whoever they pick enemies, but at the end of the day they are fierce nationalist shake Rivera was fierce Cuban nationalists, so as Castro a Hitler. Obviously a little bit of a nationalist, the Soviets were all about the motherland or the fatherland. As we're seeing today are strict nationalists, even as a essentially Soviet style economy leading this economy, which by the way Russia's still is. The American. Left is very different from that. They hate this country day. Like the other countries more, they want to destroy this country and everything that made it they want to. I mean they go from the radical environmentalists who just think that humans are a bad thing in a pollutant? Carbon is maybe one of the more socially acceptable pollutants to them. To the leftist on campus, who and now in our streets, and now in the New York Times and now disrupting your events, who just think that white people are the horrible thing and why genocide needs to happen. This is a toxic way of thinking at there's no end to it and is constant self-flagellation, and there's no way to respond to it except with American exceptionalism and doing our own thing, it's not a reasonable cult. I guess my question is what? I, there's so many different ways to take this first of all. How were they successful in creating a movement of self loathing, because the reason why the? They were fierce nationalist, but also they wouldn't have been able to assume political power being anything else. I mean there was almost an expectation to the agrarian class against. The Romanovs like you have to love this place if we're going to put you into power. and. It was just kind of obvious. I mean Fidel. Castro would not have been able to assume power saying you know this whole Cuba thing is awful. I hated all in in fact, it was the reason he was able to win over the workers. At least in appearance I think he was much less popular than the revisionists would tell us is because he used the symbolic and the history of Cuba to his advantage, right? So. Can you walk us through first of all, have we have we ever seen this before? Where you have a movement to try to almost convince the country that now it's time to commit suicide and to go wherever. The. Kill Yourself. That's basically what it is. Though right I mean and so I didn't. And secondly, why is this happening? Because that's a very? That's a deeper question that. I think you'll be able to give a pretty a pretty substantial answer. Some of the there's not. As much as I can I, wish I could help us solve it definitely. Give you that the key if I could activate all the campuses. The only close thing I can even think about the enter kissed the Bolshevik, not the Bolshevik. The Russian anarchists the German anarchists. The assassin President Garfield Charlie. Get Todd. The people who is a cult of death in a really strange thing in that movement, not unlike religious extremism that we've seen. In the ancient in ancient biblical history, and the Jewish fights, versus the Romans and now more frequently in Islam. The there was a there was a willingness to die in glory of desks where people would run into crowds, holding bombs, these anarchists just to kill as many people as possible. Or some of the Bolsheviks followed through on this old Russian idea of carrying bombs, enrolling under the czars carriage and attempts to kill him. Suicide, for them was kind of an interesting glorious thing for the revolution, but I will give credit to our revolutionaries here. People people have been asking me. How do we fix the press? It's become so dishonest and actually think the press is about as honest as they've ever been, and they're fully exposed now. The New York Times is no longer pretending to be some kind of arbiter there straight up saying we can't. We're sorry. We ran a Republican senator because he called for lawn order. We. The people have had to resign. People are being fired for major newspapers. They're saying it does no more objectivity. There was only learned truths. They're straight up telling us that the Soviet Union is better than us because they put. They had more diversity in their cosmonauts suicide program, and that the white people are horrible on the history of this country is not starting with founders. They're very very honest about. I think the left is so. So happy or so content and so accepted with this fearmongering that they actually have a lot of this off and on route. Is, you'll see it in corporations outside of school. You'll see it in school. You'll see it newspapers. These cadre coming out of universities people. You have to deal with all the time who are being indoctrinated in this stuff and they believe it. And they take over the HR departments, and they start their own slack channels the Black New York Times staffers black gay female staffers black GEIC. A person's transgenders people of weight slack channels all these different groups, breaking it down a lot of the poisoning toxicity that takes over the newsroom takes over. Corporations begins in those little cloister groups that are taught in college to be like that. And, then they have HR departments. So you're sitting there. Maybe you've been in the company for Twenty Years Thirty years. You're old classical liberal at the new. York Times or at Barry Wayne Capital Yeah Berry wise any one of these folks who is generally a centrist or more open minded to ideas and you're afraid. Because if you if you were to post on your facebook page a major corporation that you stand with the blue. You're going to be pulled in front of your HR. Department at some of the more woke. Ones some of the more. Lawsuit Resistant ones, and you're going to possibly lose your job. The reason why the silent majority so silent is because they're being silenced by the threat of massive reprising point from. Their corporations from losing their jobs. From all of that and I talk. Her Carlson's talked about this. I've never seen a movement before where they met. The most powerful people in the country are doing everything they can to destroy the least powerful people in the country. It's sickening and. I. Wish I could get a more simple answer to this pathology of trying to hurt people who are lesser than you, but it's kind of like that game of thrones culp, were they? They got some good ideas. They've got some problems. If the monarchy is not perfect at all of that, little kids are a bastard, but they solution to whip themselves and flagellate, and you can even see this with the crowds al shame shame. Putrid nightmare seen just a few years ago, even when it happened to a very bad woman on television. Now it's public. It's like you do this to people. the Democrats think they can harness it. They're pushing it. Amazon, thanks Jeff bezos thinks he'll be killed last, so he's funding it. Bank of America is giving away a billion dollars to black lives. Matter, which is you know fraudulent near terror organization the. The pathology I think of a fear wanted to be part of this club and the junior class of acolytes who are just walking through the streets barefoot chanting. Those things are combined I think to people who are without religion in America. That's lost its eternal truths. Law subjectivity been told for decades now objectivity beauty. There's no truth there's no, it's only science. Follow God F- Ouchi e the new pope. These people that it's just lost, and and they don't have anything to stand for other than making themselves feel better and leaves us very vulnerable civilization. That's really well. Put and so I think one of the reasons why we have this insurgent Marxist attempted revolution that is actually having success around self loathing. Is that post Reagan I think? The Republican Party became far more interested in protecting corporate interests and trying to create an idolatry of corporations, the country, and so because of that you're going to have hierarchies in haves and have-nots right have-nots. It's going to happen. The issue is that we expanded wealth so dramatically for certain ZIP codes particularly around Washington DC silicon. Valley Malibu and Manhattan and the rest of the country felt continually disenfranchised so those places that felt disenfranchised. What do they do well? They send their kids to try to be like the Malibu people to the universities right? That's what you do. Okay I'M GONNA. Go Send my kid to Ohio state, and they come back, and they become like a Bolshevik. What is this and not non binary, and they don't believe in the history and you do that for about fifteen or twenty years, and you send your most prized possessions, young people to these universities. It shouldn't come as a surprise that self loathing, all of a sudden becomes fashionable, and unlike the Soviet, union, in nineteen, seventeen or nineteen, twenty, one or nineteen, thirty every variation of their. Allowance of the transition from Agrarian. You know, let's just say monarchy to whatever was replaced. There is I think I think they handled the transition economically. Improperly basically, because you have people that lived under this agrarian rule for five thousand years, and all of a sudden, the this industrial revolution begins all throughout Europe and the Bolsheviks allegedly had an answer to that, but the only the reason why the Bolsheviks had to be mashing Listrik is the the. The middle class. They still love their country right. They said No. We actually still love where we are from. Because that's the only thing that we know. It's completely different now. I think and I love your analysis of this Chris. There's a lot to unpack a lot of. It has been our inability to handle. This explosion of wealth, or at least this explosion of wealth for certain people while also communicating what the country actually is, it's not just an idolatry of corporations and I love Free Enterprise. I do but one of the most eye opening things. The last couple of years is how the conservative movement has almost prioritized corporate America over the country that we live in a love your thoughts on that. They absolutely have, and we should be clear. I should be clear that even though the Bolsheviks word to your point, you know Dr Point, patriotic and nationalistic. They really did at the end. WHY MODERN LEFTIST SO HONEST! They hated their country. They destroyed everything but. Nationalists. Yeah right I know I. Know We're both on the exact same page on that most of these groups you know they they don't let you know how much they hate you until they're in charge, we're. We're blessed to have one. That's very clear about it. Right now in our midst, the GOP was always kind of traditionally northern industrial party. That's there was the trading up in Salem and Boston and then the factories later Industrial Revolution Calvin coolidge famous. Famous his defensive business, and how there's a part of the American character, but coolidge and people around his you see it with Barry, goldwater later in the nineteen sixties did not confuse the nature of man with what a lot of the modern GOP has. A, Barry Goldwater and conscience of a conservative wrote in the sixties that the between Democrats and Republicans, or at least conservatives and liberals because he had taken over the party was that liberals look at man as a material, creature and conservatives. Spiritual creature, which is why conservative say hey throwing money at this reparations, welfare expanded government access. That doesn't make anyone happy doesn't make you better. A job makes you better and the reason I mean just watch any of your friends. They can have all the money they want. But if they've got no job and they've got no got rich dad. Give them a credit card on campus. You might notice. They developed drug problems and other kinds of anti social activity because what is there to do. What what is that a chase if you have no self worth for? Days work. And the Republicans have forgot forgotten about that, and in their defensive business, and in the defense of free. A free markets they confuse that thing with free trade, and for the ability to trade between Massachusetts Missouri their judge, Lars land equal playing grounds that's different when you deal with China and other mercantilist countries that look at trade as war and people get hurt, and you can't replace lost jobs simply with consumer goods I mean. We've got companies like Walmart that a lot of people defend a lot of Republicans very fiercely so and they've done some good things. Is companies like Walmart. It's hard to tell if they destroyed the town or if they came into the town, just lived there. Because the main streets, the folks that open up small shops. They can't compete with that. They can't provide cheaper goods. They can't provide. The same amount of employment, the we end up with parking lots and these companies import their goods, which is why they're so cheap. Gut The American industrial base, and at the same time, huge lobbyists for food stamps and other things and. That their employees and a lot of their customers rely on to buy these cheap goods. It's kind of like a reverse Chinese opium trade. And Walmart, not because they're the only ones to do this. It's incredibly difficult right now to find made an American products. It's basically a luxury good to find. A pair of sperry's made in America's like three fifty Walmart is the best at it, and they used that to go throat American expanded make a billions of dollars off of a lot of suffering. In the country apples another one. It's something we'd want to think of as a flagship company, but they opened up a business in China. It's billion people to build and manufacture cheaper. Sell us this plastic. Celsius addiction so information. We buy it before you know it. They're completely behold onto the enemy, and not even willing to call themselves in American company anymore. this global elitist so separated from the needs of US Americans human beings. That they think of themselves as global citizens in global elite, and then that's kind of a trigger word, because when you hear some people raving about the globalists' Sometimes, that's a sign at their insane. But there really is a globalist group of very powerful and elite businessmen, politicians proponents of the United Nations proponents of world. Trade that that have that. Don't care about this country, and you're willing classes and want to defend your country. It's very difficult for those who don't have those resources to stand up and do it in their stead, and that's why the middle class saw. Trump is their champion, and that's why they rose up in numbers. is they said finally there's a defector from the ruling class to defend us, and they were large. Yes, wrecked about that. Teddy Roosevelt figure. That's exactly rob. Not, a mob outside the mansion. A guy inside who says hold on a second guys. This whole place is crooked and so. And and what? What I think is very interesting, though is and I've I've really come three. Realize this with a lot more clarity in recent years new Chris. I got my start in the conservative. Movement, Twenty, twelve, two, thousand, thirteen, reading the pamphlets in the policy papers pushed by these think tanks and I don't see any names that you know I was at eighteen year old, coming into the movement right and I love the free market I love all that. And there were those votes different defenses of Walmart and how Australian with China's like the greatest thing ever and I remember so vividly and I still have the emails back and forth. But some of the scholars there at some of these think tanks that were you know long-form detail and I can't help, but look back and say we're these purchased these paid for was. This is really what you and I do not believe that the continual importing of mountains of plastic from China has made our country better more fulfilled more meaningful, and if you dare say that, though in certain circles, and I think the circles really disappearing quickly, it's considered heretical to the religion of. Free markets and I love free markets I love private property, but I also love my country a lot more than some abstract theory that you put on a wall right and I don't think I don't think it's a good thing that. That Walmart has that kind of consolidation of power. I and I'll give you a quick example. It was just so materially evident recently was in Montana backing and thank you Teddy Roosevelt for preserving these beautiful parts of our country, so that I don't have a target in the middle of the bitter root mountains right so. And I went to Darby Montana. It's right. It's right there in the. Mountains and it was so clear. The only thing Darby has left is it's become basically a Standing Museum of what small towns used to be. So you go, and you talk to the persons the restaurant and all that they don't make anything. All they are is an old cowboy town that tourists come and see what it used to be like that, was it? They used to have a manufacturing base that used to have. They used to make everything in their town. It's all gone. And it was just so clear and. I asked. How is going this, said well. We have a big OPIOID problem with a suicide problem. We have this recovery clinic and it's just destroyed, and so you can go up to Hamilton Montana thirty miles north. And they have their Walmart and they have their big box chains in their stores and mountains of plastic, and all that and I'm more convinced than ever. That's not sustainable for a country. It just isn't and so you have to your point about ninety miles away Sun Valley Idaho right, which is where the ruling class gathers in the summer, and they Davos in the winter, their association with our countries like Oh. Yeah, I love America. I have a place in Aspen in Sun Valley. Okay hold on a second like. A Nice Place Yeah Pretty I. Keep My jet in. Phoenix I think I love America right and really what it is is you have a growing economic elite that were educated in these universities that actually shared the ideology with the Huffington Post reporters and the Berkeley Intelligentsia. They see America's nothing more than a sandbox to maximize profits, and to just go to the next place. You expand on that because this is different. philosophically than how conservatives were talking six or eight years ago and I. Actually think it's a good thing. I think it's a great I think you're right on all of those counts one of the biggest tricks folks on us. The fruit trade people is taking advantage of the fact that you and I and other people like US love free markets. We think that there should be a fair competition between our fellow Americans, taking that free market love and saying that free trade is the exact same thing. It's obviously not the same thing. I mean I was talking to some ranchers in south, Dakota on a cross country trip reporting trip recently and they. They don't even know what they got for. And I promise I was going to look into it wants. The world stopped ending. What happens to made in the USA? You're not allowed to put that on American. Beef products anymore. Someone in the US government who was working on the treaty with the World Trade Organization made some decision to make a trade where they would no longer advertise. Even let Americans now unless they buy from the farm themselves where beef came from if it came from this country, and the reason is because Brazilian. Brazilian and Canadians decide Brazilians. A Canadian said that it would unfairly target them. Because of Americans might prefer to buy their own beef. I supposed to be from a foreign country. I sure hope so too and the cattle ranchers are struggling so hard is horrible right now, but some bureaucrat decided. They want to be unfair to Brazil now. The average politician Brazil doesn't think like that and the average politician and candidate maybe actually does, but most the world doesn't think well. How can I be more fair? How can I represent the citizens? I. Mean Look at look at the Democratic Party's look at Joe Biden's number, one priority the first thing he's going to do it. We said is take care of the dreamers and import, twenty, billion, twenty million people, or however many illegal immigrants. There are make them legal citizens. So his first duty is president it states is to the citizens of Honduras and Guatemala El Salvador and Mexico and find countries all of them, but you'd think that the president that is states who's asking for the vote of the American citizenry would put at least something. Maybe get a snack or a loss of water for the American citizenry. Before you take care of so, this is a foreign countries. This word thinking that's completely supported by the schools and thank you for putting this every day. Unfortunately, they're on break right now, right? this is supported by the schools. Is that thing and these these Peop- these companies they really do take advantage of the fact when when when I used to be at the daily caller, we call it around her about fifteen or twenty. The major US companies Ford Chrysler Microsoft and asked him if they consider themselves an American company. Most of them said they consider themselves a company of the world. Now there are some rules to that because if you say you're an American company and your twitter than frank is GonNa. Crack down on you because they want you to be a French company. But in reality they take advantage of our it that take advantage of our safety. They take advantage of what used to be a law and order country. Our navy the protects the sees our ability to defend them the strand in. All early Yes yes, the only companies that were willing to say they were still American with a car. Companies because I think Ford. Someone at Ford had the good sense to say wait a second or brand made an American company we can't. We can't sell this out and they gave us the right answer. I think Fiat Chrysler would have a tough time saying they're American for all these. Different. That's a different topic, but I think in this is this is the the new one new things I'm really focusing on and Tucker. Really opened my eyes to this when he said it and I think he just said it like twenty-second off tangent, but it was so insightful to me which you look back to the people that we're supposed to hate and I do think they had too much power, and I think we learn a lot from Teddy Roosevelt the Carnegie. Rockefeller, J. P. Morgan Chase. They were actually patriotic ruling class that they were not. They were not trying. Trying to serve the interests of another country, I think that they are in charge. They assume that mantle and they said Yeah, you know we are. We are distinctly pro American. We do have a lot of money. We have a lot of resources, but we are going to kind of be the protectors of this country, and I do think it was the right thing to act on them, whereas you look at the Modern Day equivalents to your point. Bill Gates Jeff Bezos. The Google People Sergei Brin. You know all those individuals. Do you really think that they have a patriotic? Any sort of patriotic corps, and absolutely not they look at themselves as citizens of the world. They look at themselves as America being this awful place, that sure has a lot of money resources, and maybe we can maximize profits here, and so I think the kind of shift in how we view, Corporate America has to be one of the most profound takeaways. So I WANNA. Ask you another question though as kind of a sidebar to this Chris Switches. The the Republican Party's failure to I. Think Reform itself to an actual Workers Party. I think, will it. It's GonNa go one of two ways. If we think that Donald. Trump was just a one off, aberration were were, so we're we're fooling ourselves. I think Donald Trump's the beginning of a trend of revolt against the elites, and it's either GonNa Socialist Workers Direction or it's going to. To be kind of an Eisenhower Teddy Roosevelt Direction where the Republican. Party represents the middle class of America again HOW HOW WOULD YOU GRADE REPUBLICANS? Reaction to the recent nonsense to all of this in the last couple of months, let's say the kowtowing to corporate America a lot of their silence. How would you? How would you judge the Republican Party in all of this? Terribly. I think the elected representatives and senators. Republican Party or cowardly. They don't want to fight on anything. They want to take away the lesson. Some everything that this is simple economics. I think I I. Probably Revolt that we really saw against the elites was two thousand ten tea party. And there are some articles some articles that came out in from Claremont Claremont, review for an American spectator rest in peace that came out and said this is a revolt against the ruling class, and for people like Paul, Ryan, to take it as just all right, this is my. This is my blank check to eliminate social security and do more for trade deals like that was not actually the answer. We're just going to balance the budget. Think all of those things can be important. But that was not what the tea party revolt was about as a revolt against Leach who seem disconnected from America embodied in Brcko. Bomb Administration with all the all the fancy kennedy-esque bureaucrats who came in all the dolls. That's continued in the Republican Party. I mean. Mitch McConnell Shrewd tactician, strong, Republican Senate leader. He cares about judges and he cares about protecting campaign finances, basically no case on campaign finance he hasn't been involved with except for citizens united, and he's very very important on judges now things like abortion things at this social conservatives and Americans care about things like immigration, a lot of Americans care about things like the entire trump populist idea, those are hard fight. She'd rather not have he'll give. Make a great. Add to them, and he'll say all the right things on the campaign trail until the Republicans who on safe red districts to do the same, but then that's it. It's always will next year. We'll fight that that next year. Oh, fight that that will keep coming back and voting for us, because and this is true. The Democrats are not an alternative. The Democrats are an antagonistic to all of these things I think that abortion should be more common. It's amazing to see their honesty recently. Republicans have a Republican. Republican voters have no other home. I think than the GOP unfortunately. They've taken it over, but it's been a tough takeover since Barry Goldwater. Ronald Reagan and now Donald Trump. The Democrats are completely hostile, and the only hope is the whole organization severely accountable from the think tanks. You talked about to the Republicans, but even though I like the Guy I. Don't think Kevin McCarthy is going to lift up the populace torch I. Don't think that Secretary. pompeo is going to be the next Donald Trump. I have difficulty seeing the next. The next trump just like a difficult to see in the next Lincoln Tedi are, and I'm not comparing them, but those guys are just forces personnel very. They're not exactly like each other but I do. See exactly to your point this. This gene is not going to go back into the bottle. You and I are now sitting here might have had a different discussion ten years ago on. What it means to be conservative and. Listening, the GOP recently in Connecticut I had a great time with the Greenwich Publicans Phenomenal Group in Fairfield Republicans. This is very very wealthy aspect of Connecticut. I was speaking up there and the entire left of the state. The entire west of the state is working class solidly blue. I think that GOP successful on this and the policies that trump is push down the GOP and you've been pushing are successful. Then that'll hopefully be reversed in the next ten years, and the elites of the coast will be blue and the working class. They'll be read and I think that's the future for the GOP it has to be, but we also ensure we have a working class, not just the consumption class, and it's a completely different than you have to have people that are making things, and at least having value in the marketplace, not just buying piles of plastic on the little crumbs get redistributed out meaning significant crumbs, Nancy Pelosi stance, but just whether it be. Some sort of. Government handout or something that Oh, yes, now you can go by Xyz I think that we've in a lot of different ways. We've overvalued. Whatever it means to get a college degree, and we've undervalued Laos I really do, and if you dare, say that I, think is more space to say that now in the conservative circles, but if you would have their say that ten years ago, it's creative destruction. It's all these great things. I've been to these towns you have destroyed them, and you have forced them in their children. Go relocate to these miserable cities that have no rules of law. They're honestly the most depressing places of America San Francisco in New York. It's awful. There's no spirit it's awful. The religion is whatever the new vogue woke. Thing of the month is it's either the LGBT thing the thing it's no different. No, seriously. It's no different than you're right. Right but it's no different than the Catholic, church be like this is the month of Holy Holy Week this is you know the month of the pentecost? These different themes in the Christian tradition. It's no different in New York. This month. Is LGBT MONTH? What an in this month is! Beal woke month. It's it's essentially I will. I will be unsurprised the next decade if they have to take the Eucharist in some sort of Vegan, snack in central park to. They get they get blessed by some sort of eighth head, and I'm half kidding by the way because we all have a yearning right, we have a yearning for worship and connection and ritual, and the only difference having original sin now something that you're born with something that you can never get rid of great points. Yeah, so through baptism got a priest class the columnists. They've got rituals. You've seen them bowing. Worshipping at the feet of other activists. It's wild. And from social psychology standpoint, it's no different than the creation of Early Day Christianity except that, there's no moral just there's no morality to this at all. And there's their figurehead is anything but righteous and true, so Chris were running low on time. Can you just give us a general observation of where we're going into November? I think I are completely on the same page of the future of the Party and I I I laugh. I talked to some of these Republican senators, and you could just tell that they think that this is just kind of like a thunderstorm. That's GonNa Pass I. Oh, yeah, like I can't wait. Passenger I can't wait for the Tornado Siren to go off and we can go out and play again and you know you don't understand that it's never going back. It's just not in fact. If you guys WANNA. Go be some lobbyists for some foreign country. Do that now. Because there, the parties have completely changed. I think the Republican party changing for the better. So where do you think things are going into November? Specifically I believe firmly. We have to get president. Trump reelected. And, if Joe Joe Biden variety, different reasons should be incredibly beatable. I'd love your analysis on that. I think you're right. And that president trump needs to be reelected because Joe Biden is not unfortunately for Joe Biden and he's not there anymore. And the people who are running Joe Biden, or so far to the left. They're the people were seeing the streets, and not condoning it, and our society is going to have a difficult time very very difficult time with Joe Biden talking existential crisis. That's the level that we're at a breakdown of law and order breakdown of fact, public shaming firing basic professional lynchings, and there's only a matter of time before it actually turns into violence against conservative citizens, simply peaceful citizens who are silent in the face. Face of the new party Orthodoxy Donald, trump however and really needs to step up to the plate on this Republicans. Are just they cannot wait for him to be defeated. They're already talking about how at least when he's defeated and this goes away. The Nation can go back to normal, and then maybe we'll retake the Senate in two years like that's the way they think that's the way that they were thinking. In Two thousand, sixteen to our man's going to get beat Hillary Clinton in the. Maybe we can make some money things go back to normal, and then we can regain maybe the House get back the Senate and two thousand eighteen. The trump is basically alone on this. The military leadership is not behind him. The Republican leadership's not behind him, so he's going to need the votes, but he's going to need also focused dramatically really dramatically on Joe Biden on his policy and what he's running for he, he's right now. He's not running on wall immigration trade working class like he did the first time. He's kind of all over the place and he's. He's working a lot in different feuds. I'd like to see some message discipline from Donald, trump but I am getting the feeling that the mainstream classes once again very wrong in predicting that he will go down easily. A lot of Americans have completely fed up and on unbelievably the left has gone and taken moments of national tragedy where we all together and said wow, that's a horrible thing that happened in the streets out there, and they've turned it on America, and they held a gun to our heads, and it's breaking the country up I think that. That silent majority that's been quieted is still out there I mean look. We have election, so we don't have civil wars I mean this is people have been asked. When when are we going to speak out? I said well, thankfully the. Came with this brilliant idea of representative government, so you don't have to resort to defending yourself I. Think a lot of people are saying. Let's just take it easy I. Do have still right. Vote still can do that and in that's-that's not. Reacted to the last election. They literally rioted. No, that's correct. That's right. And and I. It's I. DON'T WANNA. Be overly dramatic. I mean I don't see any other pressure release valve except in a an election I just don't and I. Don't WanNa. Say if it goes unfavourably. We're going to go in that direction because we're decent people. We won't but. there. It's really hard to say that things are not going to end well. If these people that are so disenfranchised and so ridiculed, do not have at least some semblance of being able to get towards victory in November, and and I I do think that the pulling his incorrect and wrong and misguided, so so Chris Final question anything. You're working on you to make our audience aware of anything that you're working on a I'm working. Working on a big piece right now about a prominent magazine that might have made a serious error in judgement. Well, there you go. That's nice teas, so it's the federalist. One of my favorite websites and Chris very thought provoking, so we got to have you come out to Phoenix into a longer style thing, but thanks for joining US love to yeah right to talk to you as always you too thanks Chris Talk to you soon. Thanks for listening everybody I encourage you to listen to our sister episode where we talk about professor watchlist, dot. Org and divest you dot com projects have turning point. USA, so police. Check out our sister episode re talk about the radical left-wing indoctrination that is ruining our country, and that is seeping through all of our institutions, so please check out teepee USA dot, com. Type USA DOT COM, please consider becoming a monthly supporter of our program at Charlie. Kirk Dot com slash report Charlie Kirk. Dot Com slash support. Thank you. You guys so much for listening. You can always email me directly at freedom at Charlie Kirk, dot, com, type and Charlie Kirk Show your podcasts provider hit subscribe, give us a five star review screen shot at an email us to get into the running to win a signed copy of the magazine Doctrine rescinding another fifteen today God bless you guys. Thanks for listening check out our sister episode and checkout professor watchlist, Dot Org and divests you dot com, all projects Teepee USA Dot Com God bless you. Thanks for listening.

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George Will makes the conservative case against democracy

The Ezra Klein Show

1:17:43 hr | 1 year ago

George Will makes the conservative case against democracy

"So I've got some exciting news the launch has been nominated for best society culture podcast in this year's People's choice podcast awards cast your vote for the client show at W._W._W.. Dot podcast awards dot com slash A._p._p.. Sauce sign up or it is in the show notes beginning you do it before July thirty first you want to give the show a boost or express fact that it is good hopefully go to W._w._w.. DOT PASSWORDS DOT COM or check out the link in the show nuts. Political scientists have been saying for years at American are ideologically a rhetorically Tori conservative but operationally liberals absolutely true they talked like Jeffersonians and insist on being governed by Hamilton's. There's a bunch on the box media podcast network. My guest today is mild Washington Post colleague. George will doesn't need a ton of introduction legendary conservative columnist Abe's written a new book a fascinating <music> but called a conservative sensibility an effort to articulate a conservatism that is will's conservatism is a much more narrow conservatism than what we think of as a conservative movement which I think contains a lot of alliances with philosophically different traditions in the one he's he's talking about but it's interesting to me about what wills doing here is. He's trying to define as he says the sensibility a temperament and that temperament is narrower it is very rooted in particular idea of the founders natural rights and what human nature sure is there is an argument he wants to have in the book. I tried and couldn't quite get him to have it here. On the PODCAST. There's an argument he wants to have in the book about the publicity or lack thereof of human nature and what kind of government follows from that and his view is at a very limited government follows very directly from clear idea of human nature and the founders understood that and that the central task in America today certainly essential conservative task is to preserve that understanding the founders and in doing that he's going somewhere. I think forthrightly that is where a lot of conservatives autism is going less forthrightly and I'm happy he's doing so which is he's really making an argument against democracy against the assume primacy of democracy he's again. I push them on it. Here's a little softer on it. I would say in this conversation station but he really makes a strong argument in the book for Much More Expansive Judicial Review and a state and a constitutional structure and approach to constitutional interpretation that would be very skeptical of majorities there would be very limited in what it would be possible to do and that would take as he says it quite directly liberty and not democracy as essential driver of the project now of course who decides what Liberty is who decides what natural rights people have who decides a lot of this is very open for contestation nation and we do some of that contesting this episode but I do think it is interesting to try to think about the conservatism will is identifying the way in which it is a sensibility as much more than it's an ideology and that way there's a real resonance to this episode and the Adam Gopnik episode which is similarly about trying to identify liberal sensibility in temperament and I also think that this move of conservatism away from being a squad at least quasi or presumptively populous movement that says it speaks speaks for majority and towards something that is more confident speaking for a minority and argues that that is the proper role of it. That's always been a threat in it but I think it's coming out much more <hes> purchase a consequence of demographic change and other changes in what it looks like the public wants and where it's going to go I think it's the bears close watching both in terms of its practical effect and in the ways it is getting theorized and will of course is one of the people who's going to be very important in theorizing it so I think this is an important conversation. Here's George Will George will welcome to the podcast claim to be with you see right in the introduction that there's a braided relationship between a person's political philosophy and his or her sensibility. Can you tell me a bit about that. Yeah I buy sensibility. I mean something more than an attitude but less than an agenda. I didn't want to write another book telling people ten things to fix America or what to think. I'm more interested in how to thank in. I'm particularly interested in the fact that I think how we think is a result felt somewhat of our sensibility of how we respond to the flux and flow of things in a complex society so that's closer income to defining it. I like that you brought that up the beginning because I've been thinking a lot of this literature people have now on political psychology which I have some discomfort with and some comfort with but there's this idea net <hes> John Joss who's a psychologist at New York University calls it elective affinities those that depending on where you start with your psychological makeup whether you like change or you prefer tradition you know how open you are two things that some ideas will be of more appeal to you and it feels like you're sort of getting at that idea here I may be rounded didn't Gert Clay coined the phrase elective affinities and didn't he get it from chemistry yes as where John is grabbing from right so there is a sense in which I'm talking about the personal chemistry you have <hes> I could put in a less recondite way by quoting in Virginia Postel who said the story of the Bible reduced one sentences God created men and women and promptly lost control of Events Servino sensibility as I understand it says that's terrific. The conservative sensibility defines the lack of design and lack of control of a spontaneous order free market society to be exhilarating some people find it <hes> frightening others find it offensive that things are going on without people organizing it bossing people around the conservative sensibility says lack of controls a good thing. It's funny because I think when a lot of people think of conservatives in the conservative movement they think of a preference for order that's often assumed maybe within the conservative both agenda and the the psychological makeup and so you're talking about something more specific you're talking about p <hes> a group of people who actually quite comfortable with a a sort of disorder yes the people who say conservatives amounts to defend order have a good point but the wrong country <hes> European conservatism evolved in in defense of established institutions orders hierarchies often nobility often monarchy often establish churches and it became self of conscious and articulate under burke who was of course in strong recoil against the French Revolution and its turmoils and wound up celebrating the British public as the stolid cajoling cow and in the in the meadow with grasshoppers making lots of noise but having no consequence American conservatism is something the reverse which is to say that it celebrates and wants to reconcile people to the hazards and frictions granted and the creative destruction which is both creative but destructive but ultimately the exhilaration of a free society so there's a attention in this between the conservatism that is comfortable comfortable with the the creative destruction of the market and then something that's given conservatism live. It's political movement power in this country which has often been a defense of the pre existing social hierarchies. I mean Goldwater who figures prominently currently in the book the St One were the states of the old confederacy based not really on a preference for <hes> a free market approach to affairs but to a defense and <hes> of frustration about the way things were changing in their in their <hes> states states so how how did those things reconcile don't always reconcile their there are tensions within conservatism. There's the localism <hes> that took a particularly unseemly in Nasty turn and the Jim Crow laws which reflected local majorities but it so much the worse for that but there is in conservatism a social conservatism that says if you're going to have the kind of free market lightly governed society your presupposing a moral capital that <hes> institutions religious and otherwise have to have to nurture and therefore the civil society becomes a principal concern of those who are less concerned about a strong regulatory administrative state so your book is built very much on the idea that there's a fundamental conflict between conservatives and progressives on the idea of human nature. Can you tell me a bit about what that conflict is. Yes the Woodrow Wilson who became the first president to criticize it. Aside American founding did so not peripherally but root and branch he said I don't read the first paragraph of the Declaration of independence. It would only mislead you. It's fourth of July rhetoric. He said the doctrine of natural no rights is anthropologically foolish that there was never a social contract never stater nature and all that which is harder to point the framers were not fools about this and he also said that what flows from the doctrine of natural rights and a constant human nature is a government of limited scope and competence in the separation of powers he rejected all of that and what conservatives say is. If you're going to have natural natural rights you have to have a constant human nature that is rights are essential to the flourishing of creatures of our nature you notice I do this without any reference to a creator into a deity at all on the chapters prison my book that I'm most fond of his given most heartburn to some of my friends is called conservatism without theism at there's no reason in the world why conservatives have to have a religious foundation of their beliefs but what happens in what's frightening after the twentieth century is when people deny that there is a constant human nature they say that human beings are simply creatures who acquire the culture in which they're situated then you open the way to an enormous governmental projects politics becomes about shaping the culture and by doing so shaping human beings and we've seen far too much bloodshed in the twentieth century about people are going to remake German men canarian man Soviet man et Cetera so I don't know too. Many people truly deny the idea of human nature but I take your point that there's a wide range of us on how much is nature and how much is culture. I found the idea of human nature but under theorized in the book and you give me your view of human nature what you see is a conservative view of human nature and where it where it differs not from Woodrow Wilson's view but you know I'm a progressive. Where does it differ from mine <hes> well? I don't know yours but I'll tell you what John Locke and James Madison had in mind and you you can tell me where it differs lock said that individuals are self conscious self defining through action creatures they are largely interested self interested and will behave in more more or less predictable ways which is to say politics can take its bearings from the steady constants in human behavior. The ancient said let's let's define what is best in life and aim for it in politics. <hes> conservatives say what's the worst in life and let's try to avoid it and the worst result in politics is tyranny and you you work from there how limited government and make tyranny including tyrannical majorities less likely and and so that's a definition of human nature that can be understood as very broad but but in the way that you approach it. I think it's more narrow so there's something there's something interesting in the architecture construct in the book about how a very certain idea Eddie of human nature leads to a very certainty of natural rights which leads so very certain idea of limited government and talked me a bit more about that because it description just gave doesn't I think a lot of guidance on whether or not you should say have a national healthcare system right relied. I don't think an understanding Dan human nature answers that question. I don't think much policy in terms of the kind of granular policy to refer flows from this what does flow from this is an understanding that human nature is not plastic that people well are not as malleable as some people thought they were John Dewey for example and some of the early political scientists at the turn of the Twentieth Century <hes> they said the people were again reflections of an every evolving. In culture and it's a political project to take charge of the evolution of the culture to make sure that it progresses hence progressives it seems to be there to ideas built into that and I agree with one in probably disagree with the other. It does seem to me that human beings are remarkably plastic what they're not as predictable the idea that if you go back over our history we were hunter gatherers living in Bay kinship communities and so on we have adapted to extraordinarily different circumstances and that's clearly something that is coming from from our plasticity around culture and social cues on the other hand the idea that we can organize that and directed in a clear rational listrik way is I think proven wrong again and again throughout history so I it seems to me that you can take half of that without taking the other half you prompted Cam <hes> I think the conservative sensibility once both halves but so the reason I bring up something like healthcare is that in the book the argument you're making his I understand and he can tell me if this is wrong is that this idea of human nature flows into idea of limited government and this idea of limited government flows into structures that if you're taking human nature seriously you have to keep in place and as an as I understand the structure is they would take things like <hes> a big national healthcare system off the table or there are other examples. You can give probably be better than that one and so that's where that's where I wonder because I take some of the philosophical points but they're trying to come now into a quite narrow vision of what government can do which his which is a big jump from that Lachie idea of what a human beings nature truly is it is a big jump but the question of the proper scope and actual competence of government are not several questions and they are largely informed informed by human experience short term experience in the United States from the new deal on <hes> in the in the larger context the last six hundred years of North Atlantic community history again informs us about the proper scope and actual competence as I say those are not quite several questions so you have a a nice line on this in the book and it almost struck me as one of the key paragraphs you write the empirical case for limited government government is at other human beings are something common human nature. They're different capacities aspirations from this at falls not logically practically the government cannot hope provide happiness for all the most can reasonably expect to provide are the conditions under which happiness is each defines it can be pursued dude if this is to be defined as an empirical question then it seems we could look at places that have done different things see if people are happier and go from there I take the sense at that probably would not be amenable to you so so tell me a little bit about what it would it would depend on you have to have conception of what happiness is worthy. There's worthy happiness and unworthy happinesses Huxley and brave New World and others of explored literature who gets to decide that no one gets to decided that's the point of having a Market Society Society which is that people are free to define happiness on their own terms and pursue it in their own way understanding that and this is why people called Isaiah Berlin's liberalism tragic liberalism that it means there there are limits to your ability to reconcile all of these there are limits to social harmony. There are however because there are limits to harmony that must be a broad ethic of toleration but you must understand Berlin and others that this is an earnestly anti Utopian political enterprise but given that a lot of the distinctions here be made between us and say Canadians or western Europeans and that if we look at their societies. I don't think they look like this Kopech. <hes> how how much how much guidance does this give us. I think it gives you a fair amount in that. When you talk about to come back to what you subject raised a national health insurance that's largely largely utilitarian call and as I say in the book of people who are are secular definers of natural rights are really rule utilitarian their people said that human? I'm an experience in what we call it. More advanced societies have shown that the following protections and rights and the following restrictions on or duties for government serve as a rule all to make people have a worthy happiness so in that sense as I say we're all real utilitarian learning as we go along and you frame that reasonably positively it seems to me you're saying that you can hold those opinions and even potentially conservative sure that's interesting to me. That isn't where I would have thought you would go because you argue for a version of judicial review in the book that I think would take a lot of this off the table and as I understand it flows from these fundamental assumptions of human nature and limited government can't but does it not am I misunderstanding that chain. I do have a very expansive role for for the judiciary only chapter I call judicial supervision of democracy to produce what Madison and one of my favorite his raises advocated to produce mitigated democracy. I'm not saying that social security or Medicare or what have you should be considered unconstitutional on. 'em Sane that the there are certain rights it's necessary to human flourishing that <hes> enumerated or not come the ninth amendment of course provides for <hes> unrenumerated rights not the existence of which is not disparaged by they're not being numerate in in the constitution for example. I would say that the I think as I argue Lincoln with the lochner decision was quite right because the freedom to contract is fundamental to the flourishing of autonomous individuals Dell's either as individuals or cooperating voluntarily as <hes> as in groups but something argued there was that you're not really saying that Medicare social security etc should be rendered unconstitutional but if your views lochner was wrongly decided arms are that there there was a lot of I'm sorry rightly decided yes. There was a value in the court in the LOCHNER era <hes>. I'm not a legal scholar by any means but my understanding is that the most people believe that if you kept lochner era jurisprudence you would have a lot of those projects projects. I can't say specifically social security or Medicare which came after but those kinds of projects would have been ruled out of bounds and certainly kinds of projects we think about today would be no. I don't think so. I don't think so what first place I don't think there was a lochner era era that is I don't think there was an era in which generally social welfare legislation was struck down as interfering with the right of contract what happened in the lochner case was pretending to protect public health and Welfare New York look at the behest of large unionized bakeries passed a rent-seeking law that is a law to bend public power to personal advantage and to disadvantage competitors that is to disadvantage by by stipulating violating limits on the number of hours bakers could work they could handicap the smaller nonunionized <hes> bakeries with which the big big boys competed and what the court didn't say quite clearly enough but could have said is look this is and we're striking this down not because there is not a state police power to protect public health and welfare but because this isn't doing that this is plain rent-seeking on the part of individuals using the government or private advantage which is why as I say there really wasn't a Lochner era norma's number of cases where the court said fine this is well within the police power the state that just ruled lochner out of this so should it be possible for the government to who've enact laws limiting or quakes workweeks sure but I have to say when the government says we're going to limit people's freedom to contract to work longer hours for example the government ought to say they W- what is reason is for example when <hes> in various states laws were passed saying women could not be bartenders cousy well that's protecting motherhood and home for the fair sex and all that turned out it was the men bartenders who are who are passing these laws to protect their own jobs that it seems to me as it is. The proper role of the courts is to look the motives but it sounds like you're arguing for or something close to a rational basis standard which you you're quite critical book. Government has a good reason for what it's doing then you know fair enough no doubt <hes> but what the rational basis test has become in practice is if the government says it has a reason any reason will do what I'm saying is the reason ought to be held up to the bright light that says a reason that is really rent-seeking. A reason that is handicapping one portion of the population to enrich another is not <hes> is not due process that it is it is capricious and unreasonable use of public power helped me drought the distinctions here so I want to say for for Rita's like this book is beautifully written and it's a somebody trying to write two buckets. It's an achievement like I'm I admire anybody who can do something at at at this structure and and <hes> coherence godawful length well. It's it genuinely it's impressive made it's actually amazing to hear your your as quick with the references and that kind of associational writing and speeches yarn writing. It's I would love to sort of be inside your mind for a bit on that. <hes> I feel like I don't have the memory for anything but that said the book seems to me to be constructing an argument from philosophic book I principles for a very different world than the one that someone like me would prefer somebody who's more on the liberal side of the spectrum and fair and I think that's fair enough but I'm having a lot of trouble in this conversation drying out the distinctions when I sort of pushed on one. I'm getting well. It's not maybe it would be okay. I get the feeling you want something quite different than what we see that you think we've gone quite far off off the rails so tell me about how America should look to you. Tell me about what we would look like if we hadn't taken this wrong turn around the era of Wilson <hes> and got into this possession where we're now at each other's throats and have low trust in government and have in some fundamental way betrayed the American project as where you're talking about low trust in government the duke the book is dedicated to the memory of Barry Goldwater water for whom I cast my first presidential vote in nineteen sixty four when the American people said seventy seven percent of them said they trusted the government to the right thing. All the time are almost all the time today. It's seventeen percent now. I would think my progressive friends would be interested in the fact that the sixty point collapses occurred because everything progresses WanNa do depends on strong government strong government depends at the end of the day on public confidence in the government armament you ask how would America different would be much more lightly regulated we would be in the states would be less <hes> administrative appendages of the federal government we would have congressional supremacy reestablished. We would not have a presidency untethered from any restraints imposed by the separation of powers. We'd have a presidency not empowered to declare emergencies and wield powers given to him by Congress complaints complaints that modern presidents usurp powers is unfortunately not true <hes> there wielding powers that were all too willing to given them because the one thing my hero James Madison got wrong was he said that an under popular government all power our is sucked into the impetuous vortex of the legislature in fact legislatures have been spinning off the powers Congress is under both parties have been spending off powers to presidents of both parties so I agree with a lot of that it does seem to me the trusting government argument. There are so many ways to read what's been a long-term now fall going back to the Watergate era <hes> that it is hard to know what would bring trust in government back up but it is hard it from me to believe that a government doing less solve the problems people felt they had that they would like it better well. It's curious though that that as governments pretensions and solicitous nece has grown our own its prestige has plummeted this began in the nineteen sixties when government has a result of the landslide against Goldwater in nineteen sixty four produced the first liberal legislative majority in Congress since nineteen thirty eight well. Well no I would remind my progressive friends. That Roosevelt lost his zipper legislative majority because he tried to pack the Supreme Court tried to purge democratic opponents of that. I I would think that progressives and others say look what government does that. It knows how to do. Is something like social security you identify an eligible cohort and mail the cohort checks. It's good at that what is not good at his creating for example model cities or your nation building abroad. That's far more ambitious than what the new deal had in mind and and far more subject to disappointment and disappointment produces the curdled American attitude toward the National Government that exists today so largely grip. Let me go back to the the story about trust because I think it's interesting so one problem with all this of course has been on a survey data going back much further than the you know depending on the question fifty sixty seventies <hes> but I think that it it seems exponentially true and people seem to believe that the new deal era which <hes> follows a large expansion of governmental power as a period of a high water mark for trust in government and then the Nixon era and what follows it you begin to see a a large inconsistent fall all and it it it would appear to me. There's a consistent story here that says something like you had very mixed political parties with low polarization and not very nationalized media for quite a bit of time and that led to reasonably high trust in government and then is the party's polarized polarized and he developed for that matter conservative movement that was quite insistent and consistent about attacking government and trying to paint it in a bad light and bring attention to its failures developed a more oppositional media that people took all that seriously and that there's an ongoing going more about what the government can do but also about whether or not you like the people in charge on which we increasingly <hes> dislike the other party and that just part of the government is a little bit less about what government's doing and more about what is being said about it and reported on about it. I think that's right. I Am frankly bewildered by the intensity of our political argument today because I don't know what we're arguing about. I'm much more alarmed by not by the discord record in America but by the consensus which is <hes> extends from Elizabeth Warren on the left to Ted Cruz on the right and it is this we should have a large active generous welfare state and not pay for it. Everyone's agreed on that as far as I I can tell the public loves it. They get a dollars worth of government and are charged eighty cents for it and <hes> the differences fobbed off on the unconsented because unborn future generations whereas we used to borrow money for the future we fought wars for the future built roads harbors airports for the future now we're borrowing from the future to finance their own consumption of government goods and services and everyone's agreed on this seems to me the political class glasses more united by self class interests than it is divided by ideology in this regard. I think in this regard it's true I mean one thing that is notable is if you if you pull the question back a little bit from what government is doing to simply how it's paying for it. You have not seen <hes> inside the conservative movement either and you have a I think a pretty interesting section on the problems with a starve the beast approaches to to taxing and spending you've not seen a consistent effort to make government live within its means even from the people who said that is what they they believed and I'm curious why that is why for instance did Paul Ryan who built his career on budgets and deficits when he became speaker pass tax cuts that weren't paid for but also pass spending the wasn't paid for because he couldn't control his caucus that is but <hes> Paul has had read his Hayek and Friedman and all the rest and believed what he said but he couldn't get to the other people in this caucus to believe it so and he was of course drafted. These traps really happened in American politics all takes he truly was drafted to be speaker. When Bainer left and was ill suited to the job he was right out to want it and political scientists have been saying to things for about sixty years? At least they were back sixty years ago. They said Hey hey wouldn't America be better off. If we had more European style parties if we just sort these things out get rid of the liberal Republicans and the conservative Democrats and then America would be fine well turned out not to be the case <hes> second and political scientists have been saying for years at American are ideologically a rhetorically conservative but operationally liberals absolutely true they talked like Jeffersonians and insist on being governed by Hamilton's. Most of us want to live a more ECO friendly lifestyle but we don't always know where to start can try starting at Grove Dot C._O.. 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Will Run like a well oiled machine so if you're looking for an easier way to supercharge employees go to rippling dot com slash easier I get twenty percent off that is rippling dot com slash easy are for twenty percent off you argue that the American experiment is fundamentally about the founding experiment and it's about the the views of the founders as embedded in the constitution which operationalize is the declaration of independence can you you talk a bit about that view of what we are doing here in America today and how differs from some of the competitive use yes. I should say that <hes> among those who sternly reject that view that of mine that you just accurately describes for for example Justice Scalia Scalia said the constitution contains no philosophizing the declaration was a revolutionary document useful in it's time and place but <hes> has nothing to do with the constitution my my view of the constitution as it should be read in the light cast by that that originalists should be concerned most and I with what did the founders intend and they intend today's Society Eddie of were natural rights are the principal duty of government at the protection thereof the most important verb and the constitutions in the second paragraph earn the decorations in the second paragraph. Mrs almoner created equal owned by the greatest certain inalienable rights and governments are instituted to secure those rights and when you start from that you you're put on the path to limited government and to do therefore the respect for the what Hayek called the spontaneous order market society which is <hes> the most Birkin aspect. That's how we sort of translate Bergen to American language. What Burke talked about the slow evolution of of a society such as England becomes in the United States a celebration of the spontaneous order of market society and necessarily the creative destruction that comes with that for that bolt to travel clearly to our on time the founders have to be pretty unitary and in your book often you know spoken of as what the founders intended but as you all also right about in the book immediately after the founding you have the founders split into the political the parties said they didn't want impart over differing views of what the constitution permits and was intended to create so given the diversity among the founders and also the frustration some even with the institutions they did agree to create like the Senate it? How can we talk clearly about what the founders intended by understanding that well we had these robust wonderful interesting arguments over say a national bank pitting Madison Jefferson on one side and Hamilton and in the end Washington on the other they were arguing about what kind of people we were going to be that is Jefferson said and this is one of the reasons he leapt at an expanded executive power rather promiscuously in order order to leap at the chance to make the Louisiana purchase that we need vast extensive republic in which would be lots of land for steady rural self-reliant Yeoman rather rather like Thomas Jefferson and Hamilton said no actually we want public credit system of finance and a debt to help with economic growth to allow for a restless entrepreneurial striving urban manufacturing commercial class of people rather like Alexander Hamilton so they were really arguing about the soul of the country what kind of people we were going to be? I once wrote a book read by dozens called Statecraft assault craft. It was based on the Godkin lectures. I gave it Harvard in nineteen eighty one in which I argued with exit the subtitle the books more interesting. This is stay Crestwood so craft. What government does our government should do but what government can't help but do that when you organize a society and particularly when you pick an economic system you are of necessity picking the kind of people you're going to deal with your statecraft become so craft? There's a wonderful passage and to Tocqueville that illustrates thus he he's floating down in the eighteen thirties flew down the Ohio river on his left to slaveholding Kentucky torpid sluggish. No Energy on the right is Ohio crackling with energy and commercial cities communities springing up and the Tocqueville said this matters what kind of economic system you have will tell you what kind of people you're going to be and I think America made a wise choice to have a robust constantly turning market society with the consequent kind of individualism celebrated what alarms conservatives is when people say an this worries me more than anything about the American futures will now have a great flinch. People say alra wants but this kind of freedom is stressful and there are casualties and frictions and uncertainties and it's just not worth it any more than I think that would be a a double tragedy a because I think this is the kind of American we want to be this kind of restless striving mobile Hamiltonian country but also because we know no longer or have a real choice. The American people said we're GONNA make enormous promises to ourselves. Entitlement programs enormous calls that is on the future productivity of the country well having made that you have to will. Me End you have to will the means to that and the means to that end is a robust opened. The world globalized market society generating wealth at a pace somewhat commensurate with the promises we've made so I want to hold here for a minute though on the question of founder interpretation because as you go through the book you're arguing for the judiciary this point to take on a much more expansive role than I think even most conservative talk about you. Criticize conservatives who in their role criticized is judicial activism and you say that no we should have a quite activist judiciary on behalf the constitution but given what you're saying here. It does seem to be a pretty fundamental difference in a lot of these interpretations and to some degree in like the braided sensibilities lead to our our our current ideologies and disputes is issue of how should we interpret and can we in these ways interpret the founders you criticize Scalia for being in to a debt originalism you endorse something close to a living originalism and certainly many <hes> on the left argued then go further and say we just have a living constitution but within that it seems to me we just kind of keep ending up in this debate over. Did the founders say things that we can hear clearly today or were they in so much dispute among themselves that it is very hard and particularly given how much we've changed system they set up to hear them clearly and much of the dispute and contemporary politics to me seems to be about how do you think about that question and then. How do you approach tradition like what are you? Are you looking for tradition to provide a your answers are you mistrustful of the answers tradition provides you let me be slightly autobiographical here. If I may <hes> I wrote fifty years ago I wrote my doctoral dissertation at Princeton title was beyond the reach of majorities. It's a phrase from the second of the flag salute cases the one in which they overturned a decision just three years earlier when they had held it is okay as an exercise of police power the state to require Jehovah's Witnesses children to salute the flag even though it violated their fundamental beliefs because the government was saying national unity is a public good and we can promote it this way in his opinion overturning that in West Virginia Barnett Justice Jackson said <hes> the very purpose of a bill of rights is to play certain things beyond the reach majorities and above the vicissitudes politics before I went and did that I grew up in central Illinois Lincoln Country Champaign Urbana. My father was a professor at the University of Illinois and according to local Lore Abraham Lincoln prosperous was traveling railroad lawyer was in the Champaign county courthouse when he learned of the passage by Stephen Douglas Illinois senator of the Kansas Nebraska Act which purported to solve the problem of the question of expanding slavery under the territory's I Douglas said the important doctrine for an American is popular sovereignty voted up voted down in the territory as a matter of moral indifference. The morally important point is that we have majority rule this translated fifty fifty sixty years later in two Oliver Wendell Holmes a great progressive pinup who said if the American people want to go to hell. I will help them. It's my job that is to get out of the way of majorities of the dominant forces in the community alias. He kept saying well. I do not believe and I do. I think the conservative sensibility rejects the idea that America is about majority rule that is it's not about a process majority rose about a condition liberty Freddie and to the extent that and there are many ways in which this is true majorities threaten liberty illegitimately. Obviously majority should rule where government is going to rule but the fact is is it <hes> majorities can be Tarantula and they can be self interested and furthermore as I argue at lengthen and that chapter most of what governments do have nothing to do with majorities I have to do with government responding to compact articulate confident and well lawyered minorities who can because they have lots of social advantages they can understand the levers and pulleys of the modern state and manipulate them for our advantage. This is why I think Elizabeth Warren has a firm grip on half a point. She says look there is a reason why five of the ten richest counties in America by per capita income. We're in the Washington area Washington does make anything of laws and regulations and trouble has no natural resources but there are trillions of dollars sloshing through the system here and deflected and controlled by this and and the government often is the captive of these factions then she inexplicably says will answers to make the government very much bigger and very much more involved in allocating wealth and opportunity well. It seems to me that you'll you just to make matters very much worse. Let me put a pin in her answer. 'cause I WANNA come back to it but one question. This raises is right now. The President United States was the runner up in the popular vote. The Senate is controlled by the party that got fewer votes then the minority party. The Supreme Court is because of that controlled by Republicans which it wouldn't be if these things on the other way. Are we really in a country where the majority control so little so deeply in danger danger of tyrannical majority rule you were in danger of tyrannical minority rule inflicted by supposedly majoritarian institutions that is particularly evident at St La Hoya have all all kinds of rent-seeking protect domestic protectionism of various interests passed by majoritarian institutions but in no conceivable way responsive to majorities again responsive to compact the minorities so this seems to be then because I agree with that part. This seems to be then a place where you do have a deep divergence and I actually I'm glad you brought up Warren's view of this there because one view is to say that in a country where you have this much government and this poor level of responsiveness you just can't have this much government <hes> otherwise it will endlessly be corrupt and then there's another argument which I do think tends to be the progressive argument that the government needs to do these things things from the government in a country like America always gonna be rich even if you cut it by quite a bit and so the thing to do is work really hard on anti corruption and campaign finance reform and tried to cut the approaches into government that you see which other countries have done to integrator lesser degrees. I think a lot of people say would say the Nordic countries. Even Canada have less corrupted governments than we do <hes> and some that isn't how you build elections that right there this question of do you want to try to treat the symptom them of capture and try to manage it as you go along or simply not create all that much to capture is often <hes> as far as I can tell the the true dividing line but then in assistant built for gridlock we end up doing neither of course my views gridlock often is not an American problem. It's an American achievement that a great many people in the world live under governments. They wish we're capable of being geared knocked that when the founders went to Philadelphia in seventeen eighty seven they did not go to devise an efficient government the idea would have appalled them what they wanted was a safe government to which in late produced three branches of government to branches of the legislative branch each with its own electoral rhythm and and <hes> constituencies <hes> judicial review veto veto override supermajority all kinds of ways to slow the creature down and yet I can think of nothing that the American people wanted intensely tensely and protracted Li they did not eventually get so the the the idea that we are really hopelessly gridlock is absurd people say well nothing gets done under under the Obama Administration well nothing except the largest most sweeping financial regulation since the Nineteen Thirties and the largest in the affordable care act domestic welfare legislation since nineteen sixty five so we are talking when we started the podcasts about how I live in California now and as Californian I have a lot of experience of gridlock. I grew up outside of L.. A. Northern California now and I always think it's actually a better metaphor for government than people give credit for because when you have gridlock what happens opens is not that nothing moves it's that people begin taking weird city streets and they get plays slowly and they're angry when they get there and gridlock does not <hes> cuss California will test stop people from going places it more changes how they ended up getting there and it tends to worsen it and that seems to me to be true for American gridlock functions. I take your point that will I don't think I would say there's nothing. The American people have wanted in a intense and protracted way that they have not gotten. I think universal healthcare is something they've wanted in it and have not gotten nevertheless it is true that things got done. Why haven't they gotten because in America the institutions for which you would have to push something like that are extremely difficult whereas in other countries at times on a political majority has been elected based on an argument to create universal healthcare working at our parliamentary system the election of that majority gave that majority more or less power to pass that law and so in every country in western Europe and Canada and Japan where people whole gave a majority that power the majority used it here? We've many many many times elected a majority that promise universal healthcare and it is never pulled poorly to create universal health care and it has failed over and over and over again that that may be good or bad but it's curly institutional issue but take the polling today about Medicare for all Medicare for all polls very well until you say oh by the way probably means <hes> at limited into the vanishing in point of private health insurance and support for public for Medicare for all collapses <hes> so I'm very very skeptical of most public opinion polls to begin with but certainly public opinion polls about complex issues like this because people the devil is always in the trade offs in the trade offs are rarely poll. That's fair enough but I don't think that actually changes the fact that if we're going to say that majorities want things then we have to say it through some mixture of elect the people who promise a things and those things tend to pull well <hes> if the if the standard is going to be that when you pull counterarguments to things people's minds change then you know it's very very hard to expect anything. My point is not here that you can't make a good argument that it is very hard to extract with the public truly wants and some onto logical sense but in other countries majorities elected politically tend to have more power to at least put into play what they think the majority wants and so in America. We haven't built like that. You can argue that that's better. Although I guess my question for you would be if that's better than why is it that Canadians are much happier with their healthcare system than we are and the French are much happier with their healthcare system than we are. This is working well for us. Why don't we seem to be happy with it? Well first of all learn a lot fewer Canadians to be unhappy or happy with anything <hes> the continental diverse complex three hundred and twenty seven million of us make these systems very very difficult to achieve in again if we were starting from scratch which we never are it. It would be one kind of argument. It's another kind of argument when you're starting funding from the fact that we have eighteen percent of the American economy in the healthcare sector that Dr Healthcare sector is larger than all but five nations economies so we're not starting from scratch and we're not going to be able to pull this apart like a tinker Taurean reassembled it well. I agree that I agree on the point that we're not starting from scratch but this it seems to me goes back to the institutional story or another example this is it's pretty clear that over the past decade or more this is true George Wjr w Bush tried it Barack Obama tried it. Obviously Donald Trump is not that a majority of the country pulled in a million different ways has said they would like this sort of comprehensive immigration reform compromise in which you get more border security some kind of path to legalization. And and under bullshit died in. I believe it was in Senate. Although I could be wrong under Obama it passed out of the Senate and there was never brought to a vote in the house because of fear was if it was it would pass <hes> now we have donald trump who's has if has only increase the popularity of that idea so I mean maybe it'll come in the next couple of years and this wall look ridiculous but it seems to me that there are a lot of places where you can look at this and say we don't get things done but not only do not get them done. If if we do get parts of them done in order to get them done you have to build so much more broad coalition or you have to go through such weird <hes> executive branch mechanisms that you get a lot of things that are not really solutions their second second third fifth seventh best solution so dream act is another one. I believe the Dream Act got under Obama a pass a house and then it got fifty nine votes in the Senate but can clear the filibuster so then Obama goes for Dhaka which is an executive action goes to your point about arrogation of power to the president attendant which is a a function of gridlock. I think at least in part <hes> that makes people even angrier because now you've attached not only the controversy of the Dreamer Act itself but executive branch on power of that nature to it and so we're just kind of spinning around mound in this very angry space was not really clear a perched resolution so it seems to me that everybody is happy here than you would be. If you could have the resolution that at least majority rule can get you. I think you're right and I think your example of immigration is much stronger than your example of healthcare because people are so invested in the healthcare system they have in so unaware of the agonizing trade offs that comunity just wait till we get a Democratic president and a Democratic House and the Senate and they say well. Let's do Medicare for all on way. Delay here from the rural hospitals <hes> that is true having all hell's going to break loose believing that <hes> immigration is such an interesting issue because a majority of Republicans favor a path to citizenship not just legalization but a path to citizenship for the eleven million who are here illegally. I mean the dreamers issue is an eighty twenty issue and the fact that we can't move on this does indicate the the the veto Ossie we lived at for that may be Frank Fukuyama. 's description of us that we have these extraordinarily really efficient blocking mechanisms and institutions I when I travel around the country giving talks I carry with me the night of the twenty thirteen gang of eight immigration bill it is one thousand one one hundred and ninety seven pages law because they solve all problems at once they think comprehensive such a good thing people think mistakenly they're gonNA comprehensibly solve this in that bill you will find because the senators know everything the proper hourly wage for an emigrant animal sorter which is twenty cents more than the proper hourly wage for an immigrant nursery worker. Where do these people get this to US Hayek languages fatal conceit that they know these things and can control these things I show this crate herniated volume two audiences then I pull out of yeah the homestead act of eighteen sixty two in a way our I immigration law we had we had a vast open spaces in the United States? Everything on the map west of the Mississippi River was labeled the Great American desert we wanted on a defillo up we had steamship companies and railroad companies in Europe trying to get people to emigrate here so we passed the homestead act in eighteen sixty two in the country at even bigger problems at said come to America got to work. Irk <unk> essentially give you the land after you've worked at for five years. <hes> that the homestead act actually the copy I brandished to my audiences two pages long to be fair. The parchment copy in the National Archives four pages long still one thousand one hundred ninety three pages shorter than the Comprehensive Immigration Bill of twenty thirteen may be if we quit trying to do comprehensive things and then did little bite sized nibbles at our problems we do better. This argument feels flawed to me because let me ask you the question this way in truth it we wrote the homestead act today and it did the exact same thing as homestead acted then given the legal structures we have today given the things we have built for. The public have comment given just the way America and American government in American society works. How long do you really think it would be? That's an excellent one question but let's look at it this way we have according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. We have six million unfilled jobs in this country. We have people at our border clamoring to get in to go to work. What's wrong with this picture? <hes> surely we can understand that control of one's borders is essential attribute of national sovereignty but surely it is possible to create a immigration system that addresses the real and increasingly pressing economic needs of a country with an aging workforce and ten thousand baby boomers retiring every day but it turns out when you do that. It just gets look. I don't have a super strong view on the provision you mentioned in the bill. Look I can write a smaller bill but what happens when you write right the smaller bill. <hes> in a Lotta respects is then ends up with something like and the Labor secretary shall designate and with a deep into your book you talk about walking into Mike. Lee's office and Mike Lee will show you a bill. That's you know a thousand pages of six hundred pages and then show you the twenty thousand pages of regulations. It creates on dodd-frank was very much like that. It's worse than that. You'll see two stacks of papers runs about four inches high. That's what Congress did in terms of laws and a particular session and the other is eight feet high and that's the rules and regulations whereby the executive agencies and independent agencies of the administrative state actually do the legislating actually write the laws Congress. There's passes what Christie musicals abilities we shall have a clean environment you guys over there fill in the details. We should have quality education for all you people over there you do the trade offs but this to me is the point. If somebody's GONNA end up filling in the right things where there's less regulation. I'm not arguing that on the march and a lot of things can't be smaller but I think this idea that you can tell either the quality or realistic -ness of legislation by its length is just I don't look I'm not a lawyer and like everybody who's not a lawyer. I'm annoyed to some degree by legal structures and formalities but I also recognize that a lot of them are there <hes> for at least some reason and particularly in a world where if people are much more expensive versions of judicial review making sure that things are well defined such that boundaries and authorities are to some degree erected it strikes me as you're trying to put people little bit in an impossible position here in the closing weeks of the most recent Supreme Court term in late June. A decision was handed down that indicated that there is now a five judge judge majority justice majority on the Supreme Court for reexamining the non delegation doctrine in nineteen thirty five in the Schecter case in one other case in nineteen thirty thousand last time the court struck down a law on the principle that the Congress had delegated to the executive branch essentially legislative powers that Congress has no right to divest itself of the first substantive words of our Constitution that is the the first words after the preamble is all dislike of power here in Greenwich. He'll be vested in a congress of the United States and we may be and this is a a real judicial revolution. We may be seeing the beginning of to judicial supervision of what Congress can and cannot do with its own powers. It's been more than two years since comedian. Kathy Griffin took the picture you remember the one she's wearing a blue blouse her. Her signature red hairs in an artfully messy Bob Donald Trump Halloween mask covered in ketchup is clutched in one hand kind of in rapid succession newspapers from around the world in every single language. We're saying comedian. Kathy Griffin has joined isis this and wants to decapitate the president for the first time in the history of the United States <hes> a sitting United States president use the full power of the Oval Office and the Department of Justice to try to decimate everything not just my career my whole life she was investigated by two government agency Scott nonstop death threats and showed up on terrorists kill lists but she's a comedian. I Know One television streaming would touch me and I thought you know if I could make a feature about it. I wonder if if I could ever qualify for a festival and she did Cathy Griffin a hell of a story her first-ever Docu comedy debuted at South by southwest in March and was an instant audience favorite now is your turn to see it. Kathy Griffin a hell of a story drops in nearly seven seven hundred theaters nationwide on one night only Wednesday July thirty first but a word of warning if you think that Hillary Clinton runs a sex ring out of a pizza parlor you should not come see this movie. They don't be alive Q._N._A.. With Kathy Griffin moderated by acclaimed First Amendment Attorney Ted Boutros right after the film so don't Miss it good of fathom events dot com for theaters and tickets bats fathom events dot com hi I'm truffle men and I'm the host of Nice. Try A podcast about utopia a place that is perfect and does not exist this season were traveling across time and space space to explore seven different attempts to design a better world. What happens when those designs don't go according to plan from Jamestown the first permanent English settlement in North America and Levittown a series series of suburban developments built in the nineteen fifties to shun degar a modernist Indian city? That's also responsible for the chairs and Courtney Kardashians dining room and biosphere to an early nineties experiment that sought to create a completely completely enclosed self sustaining ecosystem and yeah some of them worked out better than others but they're all fascinating listen and subscribe to Nice try today on Apple podcasts on your favorite podcast APP from from curbed and the VOX media podcast network so Yogi for much more expensive version of judicial review and we were talking a couple of minutes ago about the ways in which government ends up being to the frustration of many ultimately accountable small organize minorities if judges were indeed these super political figures who existed with no legions anything but the constitution it would be one thing but as it is judges are increasingly increasingly highly politicized figures who come up through a long association with whatever political party ends up appointing them and so the idea that we're going to invest him with much more power at a time when may ways the fundamental romped constitutional structure is that you have two parties competing across branches as opposed to branches competing with each other. I'm not exactly sure what that gets. You Save for magnification of the issue that we now have party competition in our constitutional institutional competition your look. You're quite right to worry about judges. I worry about everyone who exercises political power and judicial power all of this people say with George aren't aren't you afraid of what they will do an Z.. Yeah I am but I'm less afraid of them than I am what the administrative state does and what Congress does to enable the administrative state to do it. Does there's no safety in politics. There's no safe. Haven I just think that at this point in our history that the court really is for reasons not the ones Hamilton was referring to when he coined the phrase. It is the least dangerous branch. Tell me a bit more about why though because angle place a lot of judges have come down on this is that given the credibility issues of their own profession it safer to at least rely on Congress legislatures and others as representing some I'm kind of will because if it's just the judges making their own arguments well then you end up in this place where the judiciary begins to lose credibility quickly because people disagree with the arguments and so if you have this kind of judicial review how do you prevent that from happening but most judicial review so much fun and this is why <hes> I one of the reasons why I said John Marshall is after Lincoln in Washington. The third most important American from public life is that in uniquely in Judicial Review The court has to say why it is doing what it's doing. It has to reason from precedent and an Ester reason from political philosophy people say what I isn't it interesting that Americans don't do political philosophy of the federalist the papers and nothing much after that so absolutely wrong the Supreme Court reports are where we do political philosophy where we reason about the meaning of equality and freedom and justice and all the rest. There's no question that judges and Chief Justice Roberts is particularly good. Example are very wary of this. What I'm saying is too bad? <hes> you have to take the risk you have to bear the heat because you are defending offending a super permanent majority that is the majority that that launched the country wrote the constitution and made it possible but difficult to amend. Let me ask you about that so you've a very interesting paragraph on constitutional interpretation Asian and you write that the threshold question when evaluating any particular mode construing the Constitution is whether the MoD would dictate declaring public school segregation unconstitutional no acceptable theory for construing the Constitution Can Invalidate The court's conclusion Brown and and given that a lot of the theory here is that we should go back to the founders intent and the found was clearly thought segregation much worse was constitutional and Brown was built on the later fourteenth amendment. It's hard for me to reconcile the faith you place an arguing from founders intent hint with a threshold test like that one. Here's where you and I would differ only on the on what I'm referring to when I refer to the founders intent. What were they trying to produce? They were trying to produce a free society respectful of the vast scope of individual autonomy exercising natural rights. You referred about some minutes ago to my doctrine is sort of living originalism has upshur. You know that's the title of a book by Jack Balkin of the Yale Law School bill where I tend to agree that that that's far short of a living constitution. It's living originalism in that. It's the original intent which is broadly libertarian for our society applied to today's circumstances. I love all the recondite hair-splitting on this kind of originalist and that kind of ridiculous but I keep coming back to one of the reasons why Scalia Disfie- described himself as a faint hearted originalist. I think he founded on the Eighth Amendment Eighth Amendment forbids cruel and unusual punishments now we know what was being done to punish people at the time the founders founders wrote that so if you simply take the original public meaning of the word cruelty we would not be able to strike down a lot today branding cropping ears frogging pillorying etcetera but instead we say look what the founders intended the original intent was to get rid of cruelty and we've changed our minds about cruelty and that's perfectly permissible but the original intense was still there that cruelty shall not be practiced in the United States but this is why I find myself so skeptical this approach because it's not that I don't enjoy it. I'm a pundit who makes my living arguing staff about politics so I I appreciate anybody else. He wants to do it too but this seems to me to to be substituting <hes> what ends up being a debator's club for for something deeper dressing it up something I it doesn't deserve to be this kind of approach because there's so much one can find in the history of the arguments. You've a lovely family line the buck about if you don't like argument America's wrong country for you because there's so much one can find and argue from him because what one thing we very much do no human nature as we all find arguments that <hes> appeal to our ends more convincing than than those that don't we end up in a place where sure there are wrong answers about the constitution. There are things I can say that are clearly in violation of the taxed but there isn't a right answer to a lot of these heart problems there is a range of them and you end up in a space where what you have have is answers that are generated by power in ideology that people are calling constitutional truth. I think one reason people like me often just prefer majority rule through I would like more but nevertheless reasonably representative institutions is that at least it's clear what's going on here and what the what the form of accountability is and how people can change it as opposed to running the stance where the two sides are fighting to death over the Supreme Court so they can put on it people who agree with them but are good jumping that agreement op in constitutional language. I think you're a homes in much more presentable than the original but a home zeal nonetheless I often think of myself as presentable homes E. N.. How good no I understand your point and it comes down often to what what do you fear most in you and I fear different things you fear <hes> the atrophine atrophine of Democratic Muscles Small d democratic muscles the <hes> atrophine of the the strong sinews and of a popular government? I fear are much more. The inevitable capture of sprawling administrative state by determined muscular skillful articulate confident well lawyered factions. My view is very much informed by public choice this theory which reduced to its essences that people in the private sector to maximize their interest often prophet people in the public sector do exactly the same thing they try to maximize their power power and that <hes> if you D- sentimentalize your view of government <hes> you will come to a conclusion that there is a more to fear than <hes> an attenuation of majority rule so I think there's something to that. I think the a place where I would differ is it's completely true that I fear the the attenuation of popular role in fact. I don't think we have it cruelly enough but the thing that worries me about all versions of American politics right now no matter whether you're running through judiciary or you're running it through representative institutions. Is that the fundamental defile our of the order is everything actually comes down to party competition in the system not built for that kind of party competition and so the judicial process also something that concerns me about it is that it has become particularly clarified form of party competition and those are the factions that in many ways worry me the most it isn't to say that the corrupting factions the paper manufacturers the you know the folks running through lobbying Congress are not a real problem but if we're worried about factions it seems to me the factions that are fundamentally dominant now our two party factions and to give to give them even more power are split away from accountability seems like a problem. I seems to be somehow we need to think about reducing the power of those factions and you know just creating more power in the judiciary I worry the wave just going to end doc with is the PA the less popularly capable faction just become just uses that as its branch of power that is a real danger because and you're quite right to focus on the political parties which the founders neither anticipated nor desired but found themselves living with ten years after they ratified the constitution what the party system has done is destroyed the medicine in equilibrium Madison assumed that presidents and Congress would be rivals and this would be a constructive creative freedom enhancing rivalry now today because the modern presidency and in my book I am gotTa go on and on and on at great length about the how it came to to have this fundamentally unreplicated small are on Republican kind of government revolving around presidential power once you get settled with this then the you the members of the President's Party in Congress think of themselves as subordinate team players in that their job is not to defend the dignity and independent interests and independent judgments of their branch of government but to facilitate the president's <hes> agenda and even his whims and this means that the whole equilibrium that Madison tried to build into a system gets turned over because people simply no longer identify with their institutions senators as members of Congress. It's one of the reasons why I have come reluctantly but firmly to to believe in term limits for the national legislature so people will I think less about long careers blessed as the saying goes less about the next election and more about the next generation I agree with that so much until the point about term limits by I know that you are on a scheduled at a and and I can't take much more for your time so this is I think a good spot to end so the question we used to end the podcast which is what are three bucks <hes> that you would recommend to the audience well I'll give you a couple of one is <hes> <hes> this is a cliche almost but the federalist papers I started life as a professor of political philosophy and the more I read Damore impatient. I get with people say why have we never produced block second treatise or Hobbes Leviathan we did the federalist papers is just a brilliant exercise and political philosophy by practicing politicians. which is why it's so good? I'll give you another book that the stimulated my think it didn't wind up where he did but it really turned my Miranda's in my first year in graduate school I read Walter Burns who was a professor of political philosophy in constitutional law scholar wrote a book called Freedom Virtue in the First Amendment and it's a Walter was an east coast drowsy and and and that's kind of inside baseball man there you are <hes> he was a student of Leo Strauss and he got me interested in statecraft assault craft George well. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it very much thank you they can George Wealth for being here. Thank you to the Gill for engineering to Geld for producing as always my email says conn show at box dot Com Ezra Klein shows vox media podcast production. Hey it's medically frantically host of the upsell before you jump to your next podcast. I want to tell you about a new event. That's happening later this summer. In Brooklyn. It's called Eater Youngun summit and it's a one day celebration of up and coming talent in the world of food. The eater young summit is a day full of talks workshops and tastings brought brought to you from fellow Vox media publication eater. You'll learn from some of the most inspiring people in the world food participate in workshops led by rising culinary stars and tastes amazing food from eaters favorite places across the country once again. It's called the eater youngun summit it on Saturday. July twenty seventh in Brooklyn tickets are available now at bitterly slash E. Y.. G. Summit that's be I._T.. D._O._T.. L. Is Slash E. Y.. G. Summit it's truly harding from switched on pop the podcast about the making and meaning of popular music and this week we get into K.. Pop is the thing that I just haven't known how to wrap my head around but the music is everywhere and it is now.

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An Appeal to Heaven

Everyday Marksman Radio

15:23 min | 9 months ago

An Appeal to Heaven

"Cs Lewis once of all the tyrannies a tyranny sincerely really exercise for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under the omnipotent moral busybodies bodies the robber barons cruelty may sometime sleep. His capacity may at times be satiated but those torment us for own goodwill torment anti-us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscious. Hello welcome everybody marksman the podcast Assar. We talk about tactical skills for adventurous life. I am your host Matt Robertson. You can find today's show notes every marksman dot co Ford Slash. Thirteen seen. This episode is a little bit more off the cuff. And I'M GONNA little bit more fired up. I usually am to be honest. I didn't WanNa make this episode assode. In fact I was trying to think of all the reasons in the world not to record this but it needs to be said today. Hey we are talking about gun control. The reason for this is the recent election here in state of Virginia. I don't need to go. I went to all the political HOOPLA. How things went down but know that the state which has historically been a conservative bastion and the founders? The Revolution has now gone full. Blue and one of the very first acts is introduction of Senate Bill Sixteen which they will vote on January and Senate Bill Sixteen gene which I'll link to in the notes is the most draconian gun control scheme I have ever seen in my life and I have lived and rebel. -FORNIA I've been through New York. I have seen Har- schemes. They have every possible item in this building. Got Assault weapons bans with a very broad definition of assault weapon. They've got your red flag laws they're banning. NFL Adams that have been legal here forever and by the way the state police has a registry lists of every NFL item. Owner and nothing is grandfathered necessary. Awesome selection now whether this is just throwing stuff the wall and seeing what sticks or some kind of negotiation tactics to get the other side to talk them down off allege it doesn't matter it does not matter the other side is showing us exactly what they want where they want to go in the future. I've said it in the past but the most frustrating words I've ever seen in this gun control debate had been. It's a start because every time someone mutters those words it's as if the last hundred years of history don't exist they don't know about every other law we've already got on the books. The story of how is passed and the fights that went on. It's it's always seems like they're starting over and the thing is it's working and this tactic is spreading it state by state level. Which is why I need to record this episode so I WanNa talk about why this is happening and what you can do about it but I think it's time we ask ourselves if we still know the freedoms that were intended good for us by the founding fathers not too long ago to friends of mine? We're talking to a Cuban refugee a businessman who had escaped from Castro and in the midst of his story. One of my friends turn to the other and said we don't know how lucky we are and the Cuban stopped and said how lucky you are. I had some place to escape to and in that sense and see told us the entire story if we lose freedom here. There's no place to escape do. This is the last stand on her. And this idea that government is behold into the people that it has no other source of power except the sovereign people is still the newest and the most unique. Id and all the long history of man's relation to man. This is the issue of this election whether we believe in our capacity for self government or whether we abandoned the American revolution and confessed that a little intellectual elite in a far distant capital title can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them ourselves. You and I are told increasingly. We have to choose between a left or right. Well I'd like to suggest there is no such thing there's a left or right. There's only up or down. Man's own old age dream. The ultimate in individual freedom consistent with law and order or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism and regardless of their sincerity their humanitarian motives those who would trade our a freedom for security have embarked on this downward course now. This clip comes from Reagan's nineteen sixty four speech where he stumped for Barry Goldwater is is commonly known as a time for choosing. And it's one of my favorite political speeches of all time now. Reagan himself was no fan of firearms firearms. And if you look at his history as California governor you know exactly what I'm talking about but the thing is he hated communism more his rhetoric should resonate justice wrong with you today as it did with his audience back then and I like this particular clip because talks about having nowhere else to go one of the lines I see written on forums. All the time has moved to a Free State. Oh the laws got bad. You'd better move to a free state hardy her. You know what I've done it. A lot of us have have done it and it keeps following us. So why is this happening. And we'll give you three reasons number one. It is politically popular the. NRA is against the ropes. All the bad press. They've gotten everything going on with them is working against them. The other side feels emboldened and because of that the gun control groups are well funded and they are going on the media attack. You've got print ads you've got canvassers neighborhoods. You've got music. They are all over the place. There is no risk right now to any Democrat who wants a run on a gun control platform in fact it's almost expected if they want money from these groups This is working because politically. We become so divided that those who vote Democrat will do so regardless of the policies whereas it used to be if you were Democrat from a purple area maybe a little right-leaning then you didn't touch gun control. Well now now you have to and you'll get rewarded for it at the same time gun owners like you and me have been impotent to do anything about it. We either comply with our laws in place us or if we don't comply where secret about it they ban. Ar Fifteen tomorrow. Maybe you don't turn it in but you don't take it to the range anymore either. You're not found in public with an as far as anybody else's concerned out of sight out of mind it doesn't exist instead. We all turn grumbling on the Internet about how we feel about it at into that gun. Ownership is now seen as the realm of old white men. And if you're listening to this you're probably white and heterosexual and you're probably between the ages of twenty twenty seven and forty. You know what demographics like that is exactly the kind of person who's been vilified by the other side for years and to them taking away your guns equates to removing power from the villains you are the bad guy now and they are the heroes rose who are doing what they can to win on top of that the actual population who thinks these things is really small. Most people are just ignorant ignorant. They've never seen a real gun outside of a police officers hip or a movie. They've never held one touched. One much less gone to the range and especially not been trained in marksmanship mementos. They know nothing of shooting sports or shooting culture and frankly they aren't interested because they see it as not for them. They're operating under false pretenses. What they think is true versus? What is actually true? You know recently. I saw some statistics that had me scratching my head but I understood the did a survey survey where they took the total number of gun deaths per year and they asked people to guess what percentage of each category those deaths fall into so so there were things like mass shootings and criminal activity in police shootings and self defense. You know what happened. Is that when this show this survey people thought a full twenty forty five percent of gun deaths per year were from mass shootings. The reality is it's actually less than one percent it's point two percent and suicides you and I know our sixty percent of that number. They thought it was thirty percent. You can see the problem here people. I don't know the truth and they're operating. What seems like a really bad picture of how things are when it's just not true now? Another other part of this is that nobody involved in passing. These laws is feeling the pain. The pain is all on you and me until those who vote for this. This kind of thing feel pressured to not do so. It's going to continue. You have to get mad and you have to fight. I think about it. When was the last time that the anybody on our side of this issue protested outside the House of one of their representatives? The other side does this all the time for any represented they disagree with in fact they network they have slack channels. They've got facebook groups. They've got all kinds of communications networks to make sure the pressure keeps going and we don't don't do it now. This this is Virginia the state motto on the flag is SIC semper Tarantulas thus always To tyrants this is the state of the American revolution we should be reminding those who think they are better. There's of those three words every chance that we get until we do. They think nothing will come of this. Alexander Hamilton said a nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master and deserves one now. Let's set the record straight. There's there's no argument over the choice between peace and war but there's only one guaranteed way you can have peace and you can have it in the next second surrender admittedly Italy. There's a risk in any course we follow other than this but every lesson of history tells us that the greater risk lies in appeasement. Now don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating for violence or overthrow or anything like that but I do want to talk about what you should be doing now. Whether you live in Virginia or not you need to be prepared. The tactics that they are employing have been honed and perfected across the country in California New York Maryland Washington. The goal at the state level is to turn people's ignorance against you during this last election cycle. I cannot tell you how many people came knocking on our door to get us to vote for their caused. As you're in everyone of them of course was talking about gun control and not one of them had real facts but nobody could challenge them on it. The truth is you can no longer afford to keep to yourself and be quiet. Keeping quiet and trusting the system is what got us here in the first place lays instead you need to be actively recruiting and convincing others of our cause and to be on. Statistics are no longer going to cut it. Nobody cares here's how many deaths per year are suicides versus gang related versus self defense. They are numbers and people do not relate to numbers. Here's what people do relate to is stories find and tell stories that resonate with the people you talk talk to if they are mothers. Tell the story of other single MOMS who protected their family from an intruder at one o'clock in the morning with a firearm if politically active tell them stories of Hong Kong Iran and Chile and Venezuela. Were the people who are disarmed. Armed are under the boot of an oppressive government. You need to bring other people into the fold with shooting sports. You need to remove the veil of ignorance that surrounds shooting. It's not just for straight white Dude's mass responsible firearms ownership benefits Everybody I don't care if it's left or right gay or straight. It doesn't matter a strong firearms arms. Culture is a culture of Independence and liberty. Robert Hyland starship trooper said Liberty is never unalienable at must be redeemed teamed regularly with the blood of Patriots or always vanishes of all the so-called natural. Human Rights has ever been invented. Liberty is the at least likely to be cheap and is never free of cost. Wrap this up. I want to talk about symbols. Starting today I'm advocating that. We adopt a new symbol. This symbol will serve as our battle flag for the resistance and I'm nominate the pine tree flag. If never seen it before it's got a white background with a single pine tree in the middle and the words appeal to heaven across the top it flew on Washington's cruisers during the revolution and the words come from John Locks second treatise which serves as a foundation of our own declaration nation of independence where the body of people were any single man is deprived of their right or is under the excise of power without right right and have no appeal on earth. Then they have a liberty to appeal to heaven this quote is part of John Locke Justification Sophistication for overthrowing King James The second an event known as the Glorious Revolution Locks Appeal to heaven is not about prayer it is about direct political action and when the system put in place to protect you and your rights have failed then where else can you turn but a higher power now. I'm not here to scare you. I'm not here to advocate a revolution or violence. I'm advocating for action. You may not be interested in politics but no the politics is interested in you. Thank you for listening. And I hope you care the a conversation on with me at the site everyday marks dot co four slash. Thirteen for this episode. Take care now see you next time you and and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We'll preserve for children. This the last best hope of Man on earth or we'll sentence them to take the last step into one thousand years of darkness rockets.

Virginia shooting sports Senate NFL Assault Liberty Cs Lewis Reagan Matt Robertson NRA John Locke California Barry Goldwater New York Castro marksmanship Washington Adams John Locks Robert Hyland
EPISODE 44 Dan Carlin

History On Fire

1:59:07 hr | 1 year ago

EPISODE 44 Dan Carlin

"Histories, not like something like math. It's something that can have potentially many right answers and many different perspectives in many ways to look at what that means is sometimes when you're taking a tour through the past the guide that you have at the time is key, and you can take the same two or multiple times. But if you have a different guy, they'll point out different things emphasize different things, how often have you read two different boots on the same historical event and got different perspectives. The perspective of the storyteller matters. History or not if you care about things like bravery wisdom passion larger than life characters and some of the most emotionally intense moments in the human experience. You come to the right place and enchants to get perspective from different kinds of historical to guide, then yell Bolelli is a university history. Professor writer a martial artist. A philosopher and provides a very different soon of to guide through the past. Then you normally encounter. Miss tour. He'll be your guide in journey to the place where history and epic collage. Welcome to the forty four four we got going. Let me thank the sweet folks have been donating the one hundred dollar level on Pat on that would be Susan moss. O'donnell moraga. Thank you so much. Those of you guys will hate that s- if you want to jump on path, Ron and donate a defy dollar level. You will be in ad free version of history on fire. If you do not mind here, we go. He stood on fire sponsor by four Heemskerk dot com. At once the shop for hair loss, skincare and sexual wellness for men at four Hemas, you can find well known genetic we Vallance to name brand prescription twelve five eighty. There are no waiting room. You don't have to wait for doctor visits. You don't need to stay in line. In other words guy. Save a whole bunch of hours, and you can do that by just going to four hime dot com. You answer a few quick question. And you got your confidential review out of the way and throats will be sheep directly to your door that I hear for a today for just five dollars. We've got your started for just five bucks supply last see the website for full detail. This could coast to handwrite, but if you went to the doctor or pharmacy, but instead you go to four him dot com forward slash he story and the number five. Again, that's F O R H I M S dot com forward slash he study. And the number five. He's fires. Also sponsored by blue apron. When they all good things come to an end. I'm sure when they at some point in the future will no longer be sponsor by blue apron, and I will cry thirty years because these guys are just amazing. You can create a healthy abbots Zere by learning out to coca Thome and working. We away from give you that chance. 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Is history on fiery sponsor by audible with the you get access to an embattled selection Foudy books, including bestsellers motivation mysteries thrillers maim wires, and a whole lot more audible has the largest selection valuables on the planet, and now with audible regionals, the selection has gotten even more custom with content made for members one book. I've always love I read as a kid, and I really love very much is blackout speaks. They Abby on audible if you'd like to check it out and amazing book about Lakota history about history of religions and just that good audible members confuse three titles, every months one audible and toward the bull originals that you cannot year anywhere else. And also, you get audible collider you keep forever. Even if you can so. So eateries. Ow. You get started you go to audible dot com forward slash h f or you can text H O F two five under five on again. That's all the -able dot com forward slash H O F or you can thanks the SMS code H O F two five under five hundred also big. Thank you to the sponsors that have been with me from day one. That would be all it and to Sarah, you get an immediate ten percent discount. If you go to an IT dot com forward slash he's thirty again, that's on knit dot com. Forward slash he's three on a whole bunch of their products. When my you wonderful, savannah was the interim producer of history on fire. Got injured the way she treated her shoulder injury was with a whole lot of rehab using on the cattle bells. We program designed by my friend, great, Dr Mark Chang, and he worked like a charm was amazing Ueli war. So we still have a whole bunch of only kettlebells lane around. They are great tools for working out. Even if you're not injured also I really like some of their supplements ice throw, my one of my personal favorites alphabrain in powder form. That's the Wanda hits the spot for me. 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That's quite impressive. Also wanna give a shout out to geek nation tourists. What's going to have been likely in two thousand twenty and spring is that I will be joining them for a tour of Guardia Oriole, citing south Italy between Naples and Rome that should be happening in April two thousand twenty. So if you wanna check them out include a link in the episode notes at his throne fireball Gusta, calm to see if you wanna join us having said all these I have to pull ready wait too much. So for now, there's only one thing left to do. And that is to go to history on fire. They were going to be doing something different today. It's not narrative history. We just meet Allan you guys star in today's conversation. We'd. One of my absolute favorite human beings, and Dion these putrid king of historical podcast in. And if you ask me of podcasting period in general, and I would be demanding south, Mr. down Carlin. I hope you enjoy our chat together, we're going to watch on a whole lot of topics relevant to his three. Here we go okay down. Let's get playing. One thought that I found the fascinating as of late and seeing a lot on social media. A my forge to kind of define terms these mostly happening in US. I don't know if these discussion that's really happening in other parts of the word, but in US seen a lot of discussion regarding the political spectrum what's left wing what's right wing aware phenomena like fascism and Ziesel feet into the spectrum. And in a personally, I find the whole left wing right wing discussion almost intellectually lazy because to me like, I'm not even interested interesting. If it's an idea of comes from the left winger right-wing to me and ideas, either good idea bad idea who cares where it comes from. So even thinking into storms to be in just factionalism. However, having said that if we insist on using these storms like left wing right wing, then we should probably use them correctly. And what I'm seeing these days. A major attempt to change the way therms of been used historically kind of minds me of the Princess bride. You know, and they say you keep using these ward. I don't think he means what you think it means that sort of the feeding of gotten in this discussion from so I would love to get your take on. And you know, we can jump into hold discussion on the saying regarding the political spectrum where our it's changing the meaning feet. What used to mean, historically, and all of that why I think a little background probably makes sense before we get started. Because I think we should acknowledge one thing right off the top. And that's that the idea of the political spectrum is a human created thing. And so and so and not just a human created thing. But something that sort of developed organically in revolutionary era, France that was then sort of morphed into something that was used ever since and ever since people have been trying to figure out how. How you make it better because it's such an imperfect way to describe political positions. So as you, and I both know, but let's review in in pre revolutionary Rev early revolutionary, France. You have an assembly where all the the people meet and from the speaker's platform on the assembly the people who were the honored, aristocratic, movers and shakers blue bloods. And that's the science sat on the right side of the assembly and the bourgeoisie. We were today. Call the middle class or upper middle class to businessmen all the the merchants they sat on the left. And then that became the beginnings of where people would say, you know, a man on the left or a man of the right? And so that's where that initially comes from. And then that became sort of the shorthand that was transposed onto later political systems forever afterwards, whether or not it was a really good description of other societies other countries political systems in places far removed from revolutionary France. Oh, that's how it star. And then from there on what we have here is a human created system that is designed to try to provide a short hand, if you will for people's political persuasions and ever since people have realized how inadequate it is to describe, you know, something complexes people's political beliefs. And that's why ever since there have been attempts to three dimensional allies it or create another access to measure other things that the left right political spectrum doesn't measure, and so in that case what we have here now is a a spectrum, which doesn't resemble the one that you and I grew up with. I'm fifty three you're younger than I am. But both of us grew up in an era where the the original tradition. Let's call it traditional for lack of a better word political spectrum was enforce and in that spectrum just so that we have a benchmark from where we can have this conversation from speaking as an American you grew up in a different environment. But in the United States we were taught when I was a kid that the United St.. Dates and other western democracies fell somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and that both ends of the spectrum either the far left or the far right represented extremist philosophies, different kinds of extremist philosophies, but extremist philosophies, and so that's where it started. So the far left when we were growing up was always communism. The far right was always fascism. And so that's why you and I are confused when we hear people today speak about for example, the Nazis being on the left side of the spectrum because on the traditional one. It was always the right side of the spectrum right now, I should point out that I had a political science professor in the nineteen eighties in college. And this was the first time I ever heard anybody say this who said that really maybe we should think of that linear political spectrum is more of a circle and that the two have the two extremes actually have many things in common. So maybe they touch on the other end. But so when we had this discussion, let's remember that this is the spectrum you, and I were operating from and that most people from our era and before. Understood. So now, let's let's let's go from there. So why don't you start by explaining what you're seeing out there that is so discomforting well start to throw ranching to into that political spectrum, which by the way. It's exactly correct. That's exactly I we go out. But that's how it was always defined. But something like an archaism Archies. Traditionally was considered an extreme left position in ear. You have communism and fascia more communism, and Nazis and being one considering strike Reich and one extreme left, but they have both share the fact that they are to -tarian systems on our tease him on the other end by going radical against the very idea of the state seems to be the opposite end of totalitarianism. And yet he was never defining anyway, shape or form as that right-wing cones of to us Kunsi old Reich's three left. So what I find weirding these es? Flagging surfing movements that you know, they have defined himself as conservative right-wing data opponents, the find a mess conservative right-wing. Everyone involve was Vati clear about who wear. What was up and now kind of find completely changed? A meaning of what used to be something that was put much understood by everybody. I mean to me it's like it's funny because going up you need the high being Vati familiar with lots of people who are fascist of being in conversation with people who are neo-nazis. So to me, these he's not even like a QA to, cultivate, these are actual flesh and blood people who have spoken to and Hugh these people that they are left-wing. You don't wanna see the consequences because they hate anything to do with the term left-wing ready make them go berserk on they hate that. So the fed that today in US seen these redefining of the spec on a basically places all of the Taliban. Ori- movements throw 'em communist, which everybody argue day are left wing's. There's no disagreement there back from fascists than nods Swart that IBM nautical that right-wing suddenly plugging the mold as left-wing phenomenon. I find to be like to meet seemed like a bowl small Ernie stems to redefine to ride dictionary. What? Now, let me interrupt you because that's exactly what it is. But the and here's the thing. The people who did this redefining were very open about it. This wasn't a secret. The problem is is that many of the people who quote them or who or who or who who who ascribe to the same theory don't realize that it's a redefinition. So for example, I said in our little introduction that there have been many attempts since we were kids to try to figure out a better way to define people's political positions other than than this very limiting linear way. Well, there's one of the examples out there that was done is a person who decided to make the question of freedom. The defining force or right? So the political spectrum kind of plugs in x and y what you want, and they can end up showing what you want to depending on the parameters you choose. So if you decide that freedom is going to be the basis for what moves the needle on your spectrum will then yes, one direction might go in the direction of more free in another direction less free in which case all the totalitarian systems, regardless of their economic viewpoints or whatever belong on one end. And as you said anarchism, probably belongs on the other extreme I don't have any problem with people redefining the political spectrum as long as they understand that. That's what they've done well known using their own thirty -nology because if we're using feedom, I if you'll come on these one extreme you can put the Darien ideology said the other extreme, but there's nothing left to right about this. This is just a new way of looking at seeing. So we shouldn't probably use the terms left wing right wing, which traditionally completely different. Meaning and blog them into a spectrum veges someth-. Got us in direly one. Let's understand to a little bit about what the the differences of this always were. So for example, when you go back to the original French version, I mean, those people that were sitting on the right side of the assembly those are monarchists, right? So so the extremes in the original system, we're talking about here are people that support the church, the aristocracy, the monarchy and the status quo the people on the left side until you got, you know, the Jacksons and all that were actually the equality. Liberty of lazy faire capitalism may be you know, the take that with a grain of salt. But by the standards of the time and those things change with the times. I mean, certainly if we're going to talk about what left wing and right wing were in the nineteen thirties. It's going to be very different than what they were in the seventeen ninety s but I mean from that basis there are there are fundamental differences between you know, the views. I mean, let me give you an example. So so when you look at the the, Nazis, one of the things that catches people up in the United States is the name, the national socialist German Workers Party, right? So so for everyone out there who doesn't know it if we asked what the what kind of a government the North Korean government of today was it's a hereditary dictatorship. Isn't it? It's it's what it is. Right. This is the guy in charge. There is the third generation father son grandfather of a dicta- to'real regime that that Brooks, no opposition. And and has no has no legislative body with any power at all yet. The official name of that country is the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea. That is marketing, right? That is that is marketing that is exactly what the national socio, the German Workers Party is I mean to Hitler, and his people the the Nazi party of that early era workers was the same as voters and this was a political market. Attempt to try to swing voters. And by the way, the centrist party of Germany in that time period had workers in their name. So this is not an unusual thing. And so that but that but Americans get get so hyped up when they see the word socialist or workers that they automatically assume. Okay. What we have your Bolsheviks, which is nothing of the sort as a matter of fact, I can't think of anyone more opposed to Bolsheviks than Nazis. Yeah. I mean, he blamed them, you know, beauty sold. Platforming absolute position to communism. He was he blamed socialist for contributing to Germany losing ward won. He, you know, if you look at when he took by our he go read of the more or less leaning element where sympathizing with the nuns movement squash him all with the night of the long knives. Some of the first people he sent to labor camps or socialist. So I mean, it seemed like there's enough evidence there that. The lethal marketing blowing the name should be obvious to everybody. Well, and for those of you German scholars out there who realize I mean, it's it's known as straw, surrealism auto straw, sir, was was part of the very early Nazi party's. Let's just call it the philosophical wing for lack of a better word, and he would have been more. What Americans think of when they accused the Nazis of being a socialist movement, but he was purged early on that side of it. I mean, Hitler took over we would call it today a corporate shell he went in saw a group of people who already were meeting. I think there were like twenty of them he said in mind comp and he went in there and stole their movement and got rid of the things he didn't like, but the name stuck, you know, I have mine comp sitting here in front of me. I read it for our little conversation here for the fifteenth time, I always feel like people that call the Nazis left wing have never read this book because Hitler, actually slam. The left by name the left over and over and over. He says they chose red for the Nazi flag colors just to piss off the right? Stealing their stuff. And we're we're rub it in their faces. It's like illegal. If you open mind, come from reb five pages would only be clear. Right. Wouldn't even be an issue again? I find some of these part of the reason why bugs me little is. Because I feel that it is disingenuous attempt like that some of the people who have been pushing this notion are doing so not because they actually believe it. But because it's Landau Toco somebody anad zero fascist in the modern political climate. So the idea becomes let's let's paint those guys as the Nazi's fascist because then you know, we score point over by more because they actually believe it because if you actually believe it now, you got a serious problem with reading comprehension because he really doesn't take much to see the difference. You know, his like, well, you jumped in front of where I was I was going to set that whole Cui Bono thing up here like because the more interesting question, isn't we're the Nazis left wing right wing. It's why does anybody care? Right. I mean what what's the practical? Re. I mean, you know, we have arguments over this today, and you go why I mean, this is a a seventy five year old issue. The only reason it matters is how it applies to the modern political situation. So there's a reason that tarring one side or the other would this label is important now to get back to our political spectrum when we were kid in the United States again, I can't speak for Italy. Because when I went to Italy as a kid they were they had a a red flag with a hammer and sickle on some of the buildings in Rome. So. Percent over the country was called exactly little different than what I grew up with. But but in this country, the reason that we were taught that that the two extremes of the political system. More bad was because you know, this was to teach us let me back up in nineteen sixty four Barry Goldwater, Senator from Zona ran for president against Lyndon. Johnson a Barry Goldwater often labelled as the father of the modern conservative movement. So where you get away from the country club Republicans, and you get down to the Ronald Reagan, kind of Republicans a very different sort of breed, those guys Goldwater famously said that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice he's the kind of guy that would have approved of political spectrum where liberty was what moved the needle one way or the other in a case like goal water. The idea that we can. Look at different movements in the United States as extreme. It was a warning. Right. Don't go too far to the left because if you do you take the left leaning ideas that form something like, liberalism, and you take them to the extreme. And you get to a dangerous territory like communism. And if you take the right wing views, which you know, would be a conservative political viewpoint America, and you take them to extremes you end up with fascism. Well in the monitor I mean, I remember Joan Goldberg wrote a book called liberal fascism, and he's he along with others. Try to trace development that links liberalism to Nazism as a way to warn you about the dangers of liberalism, right? This. These people are on the road to Nazism because Nazism's the worst thing we can think of it's also a way, you know, to to say that, you know, if you move farther and farther to the right? There's no bad thing on the edge of that right in the old days. You say don't go too far to the right or it's bad for everybody. Well, if you redefine the political spectrum. So that the right has. Has no connection to nasty political outcomes will then pay just moving farther to the rights. Always good. Right. So there is you know, I used to say to right wingers. If we go farther to the right? What happens that's bad? Does it ever reach a point that's negative? And I think that's the Cui Bono part that there are people trying to redefine the idea that going to the extremes to the right side of the political spectrum have any bad outcome at all that to me is the problem. So when when when Goldwater said extremism in the defensive liberty is vice this is the attitude that if you go to the extreme, right? There's nothing bad about that. Because we're going to get more free. Absolutely, correct. And I think that's exactly the shoe week the framing it as a life tried thing as opposed to totally -tarian versus freedom. I understand that is versus individual rights that make perfect sense to me. But don't blog it into a political model that doesn't reflect that told because traditionally there have been extremely totalitarian left wing movement and extremely totalitarian. Right. We movement. What makes them left wing right wing is not out our with the status because a game both sides idiot eats addity shows like for example, in the case of the Nancy's if you of the seeings that clearly would Mark a more on the right wing side of seeing so why people wear more conservative so parted them you add the desire to crush labor unions was a key seeing that dial them be popular with some of the industrialised in Germany, the desire to go against medium wage own. So be. League in terms of culture wars. You know, there was a hold wave of gay rights feminism moral sexually that was sweeping in Germany, and that Nazis MOS strongly pitching against so taking a more conservative attitude in terms of even issues that would be at a today spark of the culture wars. So you know, to me those are things that's and that's what makes them body in the indicates that and also try one in forgotten. That's probably the most embarked on one fold is that the bays of the whole ninety movement was built on nationalism and race. Whereas that idea surely the other extreme, you know, the communists were all about the morning, Dr nation, global perspective and class. Exactly. You know, wind was about class. The other one was not the other one to FOX was on race and nation. When was high article wine was at least eight to county, of course, noneya reality. But at least eighty cutting Favaro equality one was, hey. Heavily bad with the traditional religious institutions. The other one was eight taste who are pushing them or they all achieve. They have our flirted, we'd religious ideas. So I mean when you get it into storms, they couldn't be more different despite defied that they were both totalitarians who wanted a strong state. We'll look at the company they keep that's always what what I mean domestically as you pointed out. I mean, the Nazis were taking donations from big business. I mean, the whole idea behind socialism is that the people on the means of production while I mean my goodness. The Germans of the nineteen forties had companies like Krupp, and Messerschmitt and Porsche and Henschel. And and you know, a I G Farben I mean, the and those guys didn't go away. That's not at all. Like what you would see in a communist country and looked at the allies that the Germans had. I mean, you mentioned the Italians, but let's look at the Japanese. I mean, you could never spend the Japanese. As as a left wing regime any I mean, that's a divine emperor system. Right. And you know, for these people that say that that dictatorships and that kind of lack of freedom is is left wing. Well, what was the czar of Russia before the communists took over? Right. I mean that is the ultimate right wing regime by any stretch of the I mean, that's that's right wing by the French assembly definition of right wing, right? Those are those are a thorough -tarian monarchists the Japanese are not going to ally with a left wing regime. Look at friends Sisto Francisco Franco, look at all of the people that fall into the the the fascist orbit even one Perron in places like Argentina later. None of these people fit the socialist model, even if the name national socialist seems to imply that that's what they are. Absolutely. And I think that's what. I find up set in which I think for me there's a little bit of a personal element. Because when you think about just not long ago when I think about family history in my grandma that was literally placing bomb to blow up fascists, my, you know, there's a whole without even going into the whole family biography. There's enough there where these were seeing that people felt very strongly about where he wasn't like some Acadamy feed off debates about terminology, and he was Vati the L in terms of your enemies, are would they aren't. And so these effort, though, the Walters I find it reeling solid him out mentally because it's kind of like changing, he's thirty two sued the one so need in the present. It's not unusual either. I remember when I was on the radio in the nineteen nineties here in Oregon. There was a group called the Oregon citizens alliance, and they were an anti-gay group. I don't even know if they're still around, but but one. One of their members wrote a book called the pink swastika, and the whole point was the same thing you're seeing in the modern day where where people are trying to link Nazism to to the to the current American left is a way to tar and feather them in this case. This anti gay group was trying to link Nazism to gay rights as a way to target for them, the Nazis become the wonderful, and I use them in my own show this way because there the benchmark for evil plot. I mean, I mean like, for example, I have a quote here from from story that I that I printed out for this discussion today, and it's from some historians who are talking about the same thing we're talking about and they were explaining let me read the post because it they're talking about all these different right wing writers that have tried to redefine Nazism as a movement of the left as a way to tar and feather modern people on the left, and they wrote as concluding line this. They wrote here with we come to the effect. If not the point of the revisionist exposition, it is not only. To transfer the stigma of the second world wars genocidal violence from the right to the left. So that criticisms of radicalized populism can be dismissed as leftist fascism. It's also Tisza jest at the war was a crusade against St. collectivism of all types, including the welfare state for which many westerners, in fact, fought they reasoned by means of a simplistic a historical syllogism since socialism is status slash collectivism, like public health and public transport and Nazism with status and collectivist and promoted public health and public transport social democratic public health and public transport measures must be fascist. In other words, if if you have a we have a you're all a right. And that to me is what is what becomes a sneaky little debating trick is the best way to put it because anybody who's read mine comp and thinks that Hitler would put up with being called leftist hasn't really read the book, very. Carefully. And I think I think really boils down to I believe that our people want us leery decisions today and believe it probably 'cause they haven't really read enough before. But I think a lot of the people who are put in this stuff out our win so ineffective easing gino's men. That are not because they believe it. But purely as forty two Calloway onto us in day, our political fights today, and again, you know, if we want to throw out completely left-wing right-wing for it. Because I a mean trysted in policies that increase that agree of individual freedom. I mean, Kari outliving interesting policy that help the quality of human life. I don't care where they come from. You know? So we want to throw that out completely. I have no problems with it. But nor redefining existing terms, according to what benefit somebody in terms of their own political fights because that just dishonest that something else entirely, well, and you know, it's worth bringing up what I think. Is a key ingredient in the whole thing that isn't talked about enough. And that's the fact that much of the comparison between the Nazis, and the communist involves Joseph Stalin, he's a bit of a y you know, in other words, instead of Bolshevism, we're getting a little deep into the woods here. But you have Stalinism there's a decent number of historians that think that Joseph Stalin wasn't really a communist that. He hid behind the communist sort of doctrine. But was and I'm quoting here an old style oriental despot in which case that makes him. Yes. More like a Hitler or Mussalini, but you can't call them communists. Then right. He's just an old style dictator right where they facade of communism because communism for all its faults was not supposed to be a dictatorship. There was going to be a dictatorship of the proletariat stage, but decisions weren't supposed to be in the hands of one guy who like Hitler called every shot. Now, the fact that it actually works out that way. In Soviet Union in red China in in the Kamei Rouge in Cambodia is that that's a different that's an actual interesting point of its own. But that's not what it's supposed to be like. And so those who say that communism and Nazism, very similar it might be less because Hitler's like a communist more because Stalin's like Nazi right? Knowing that I think that's where that's where whole conversation gets interesting where the same posts are. And I think that the one you brought up his vetting thirsting on inex-. Maybe another time we could explore it. You know, the Wyan ideology that inquiry, but each in these radical equality there south to be monsters hierarchical despite saying, no, no, we are all equal. When obviously anybody can see which was cut out. It was just something to hide behind that. That becomes in fact, one of the contradictions in that movement. That's interesting to explore and I loved Churchill's line about the equalization of MS. Serie? Right. Exactly. And and then it's even that like that clearly would not be good scenario. But even that's no real because it's now really qual the guy the last guy in the Soviet Union stallion are gonna have a very different lifestyles, you know, they are not in the same both old. So yet fascinating. And I guess one thing I want to I don't know if you wanna add anything to these or behind fi switches likely in the conversation, I but it's worth pointing out one thing and you brought it up earlier. And that's this question of equality, whether or not it's possible, and whether or not that's actually what the Bolsheviks or the red Chinese or the Kamei Rouge were actually out to do that is a key plank in the the communist slash socialist worldview. Whereas the Nazis did not believe in equality. They specifically believed in the opposite. The Uber Mench concept, basically that there there are master people, and there are subject people. What's more, communism and socialism have this? You know, you remember the phrase right workers of the world unite every everybody who wasn't of the ruling class around the world was part of the potential convert pool. The Nazi's race oriented to them being part of the convert pool had nothing to do with your ideology it had to do with your blood. And so I mean, this this the idea this is a problem Americans have with terminology, and that's why I use the People's Republic the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea to start with you gotta get past the national, you know, Socialist Workers Party name in the Nazi party. I mean, the national socialist thing too many people buy that at face value. If you took that out of the equation, and you just looked at the beliefs. This is how you know. So many people are just parroting what they hear from. Let's call them influencers rather than doing their own research because it really doesn't stand up to historical scrutiny, and it's hard to find a lot of historians will back you up on. The idea of the Nazis as a left-wing group. And as we said, if they're left wing group what the heck are they hanging out with all these right wing countries. Yes. Exactly, it's. Yeah. That's why really makes no science on every level. And I'm glad to chat with you about it to sort of out clarify because I'm sure there are a lot of very nice weekly sinners who have bolting to it because they have just ordered it enough times. So that's why I think laying down some actual facts laying down some actual evidence. In regard is important because otherwise out God, sir. Why was just gonna say here's what teachers to me though, at the interrupt conversation that we started with the que- Bono idea that in the who benefits right? I interested in who's angry that we're pushing this point of view, right and wire they angry. So to me it arguing about where the Nazi stood in the political spectrum is seventy five year old news having somebody get angry at you today. Because of where you say, the Nazis are in the political spectrums much more interesting to me that that's that gets deep into the. Psyche of not just American politics right now. But let's call it politics in the entire western world. And that reminds me this is actually funny because you go into as I remember few months ago, a tweet disea- match that I found the scathingly she'll in where there was the joy of these guards thous- rates have beak, Nick and Alaskan all happy land. So you see these people, and they all seem like sweets, nice young German people, then you'll remember that they are guards outfit. So the team edge displayed banality of evil now, you would feel that would be a relatively uncontroversial thing in the sense that we understand our not people the horrible stuff. We understand. Yes. The Nazis did horrible things clear enough right or Dokan in about nineteen forty five and suddenly there was a whole store mall. Angry people about why aren't you showing the the communist guy if you showed these? Why aren't you? And he was just like, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Where does these even come from? And do you know clearly for of? You know, we need to score a point for our team kind of thing. Even if you ask them, nobody would say, no, I'm defending the nineties, but that's kind of where he was it was steel framed in left wing, right wing fashion and these weird because I mean, I get the feeling that your Hiatt film common sense as had beat to do with the modern political situation where if you say that the sun is out immediately are gonna have people from all sorts of sites. Yelling at you. How dare you say to decide his out to the sun is not out? What are you talking about? And that they're Sacha degree of factionalism modern politics that you cannot say even the most albedo saying the stuff that's like saying to end two week while four you can barely say that without being perceived as either pedal multi in one camp or another. We out Matica means that fifty percent of the other fifty percent of the people are going to hate your guts. Well, let me even take it one step farther in the car. Prediction, if the people that said that to you really believe the Nazis are a left wing movement, and they're coming at this from a right wing point of view, why on earth would they care right radically? You're just making their point for them. Right. The Nazis Rievaulx. That's right. Those left wing, Nazis Rievaulx, but those are people who think the Nazis are on the left, but get mad when you're not giving equal time to the crimes of the Bolsheviks that doesn't make sense right there. So you say why did Dan give his current events show temporarily? Maybe it's because if how do you even deal with such basic contradictions that the people who are making them don't see I I don't know how to have a conversation with people who don't recognize such basic contradiction. And I think that's the Berle them. It's hard to even the scores. And I mean, social media doesn't out of course, she are not seating of somebody where you can pick up body language and other seeing that are more likely to make you less aggressive. But still the point being we are these it's Vati Artois any kind of conversation when immediately people start yelling at each other. And are just looking for a reason to score point for their team. And he doesn't even like to politics almost seems to apply like any thought because seems good enough to start a fight about. And I'm not sure if these results of value nation of people not seeing each other face to face if he'd said, I'm not sure wanted he's his out dolphin. I would be curious tweet European. But I definitely see and I can see why doing a show like commonsense may not seem like the head gifts. But also the Lord for you. When anything you're going to say, you're gonna get yelled? It. Well, you know, it is interesting to me that that in these particular times that we live in to to be someone who tries to see both sides is seen by both sides as somehow validating or enabling evil on the other side. Right. If you weren't one hundred percent condemning the other side, you're part of the problem. Well, that's not the world. I inhabit right. We started that program as a way to find things that we had in common. So that we could solve common problems that both the right and the left would agree upon things like, you know, a need for government corruption reform stuff like that. I will say they'll let me push back a little on this idea about division or the anger or the lack of ability to have a civil conversation because at least in the United States. I think we have a long history of that. You know, I don't I don't think there was some golden age where we have these wonderful column discussions about politics. People always would get. I mean, there's a reason that they say there's a few things you shouldn't discuss at dinner religion, sex politics. So I mean, I think people have always gotten worked up over that. But if you go back, and you look at the kind of arguments, and once again, you know, the average folks in the middle of the country weren't writing long intelligencia sort of college type treaties on this. But it does seem to my naked eye that the conversations were held one on a higher plane. So that you really discussing issues as opposed to the the hyperbole name calling me do now, I also think, and you know, this is another topic too. I think we miss having a common sense a common. Common a common framework of reference. Let's let's call it truth while understanding that there never was any truth. But to be able to cite sources in an argument used to be really valuable whether or not we really believed the sources nowadays. I mean, the media is in such disarray. The the people who used to rely on to provide at least some window, even if it was I flawed window into reality are so disorganized disoriented. And and let's totally the reputations are in tatters that leaves nothing to a conversation but name calling and whatnot. I mean, what facts would you argue with you have your facts than I have my facts, and they never come. You know, they never they never cross over. You know, what was the Rudy Giuliani's line through his throat? What is that something along those lines that was like most false mold early statement of ever heard where he was just it's an origin defect. The basically is no agreement on objective throught that that of investigative journalism because that's what you know, as many amazing seeing says internet as old as also to that of investigative journalism because nobody has managed to spend to make it up in an environment. Where people are reading stuff on and are no by newspapers anymore and all of that dairies. No Komori agreed set of facts it solo told that's why people can Amin people have always met up again that but there was a little bit of fat checking going on. Now. I think anything you quote, outta Matica Lee. People are going to say that's not a good source. Screw it. I'm gonna send tweets dodge, just, Nope. No, no. I have my fingers in my years. That's just a bad sores, or at least you could quote somebody who you read. Right. You may say I don't agree with what you're saying. Because I was just reading this book by so. And so and he said, I mean the discussions. I don't happen at that level. It's you know, it's funny because when I was in talk radio they used to say that you can't ever del any lower beneath the surface and the very surface issues because you have to assume your audience is turning over all the time people are getting in and out of their cars and whatnot. So you always have to keep the conversation at the inner doctor level because new people are joining it all the time. I almost feel like that's become the way the national conversation, and the international conversation has gone now, we're nothing gets below the surface level because once you get below the surface level, either people are incapable of having a conversation at that level, or I mean, you know, if I come up with facts against somebody, and they say, well, you're just a fill in the blank. I mean already the conversation is over. So there isn't a conversation. And in in a functioning there used to be a line that in a in a democracy or a Republic and informed. Citizenry is what's required. Could you? Call our citizenry informed. And if you said, no is it. Their fault. I don't know. Right. No. I think it's that's why it's really message way shin. Which is why I see that Mendoza field and understand US. But around the word of really kind of the strong demand. Authoritarian tie was going to tell you. I will take care of it all because people are confused. People are scared at so much so much thirty studying formation show match quick change at Benin day, incredibly fast base that people feel like the ground under need them is not as solid as used to be. And so the feel of the strong man was going to fix it all seem to be valuable but much I wouldn't say all over toward by many many many different parts. I'll tell you what reading mine confidant for the first time probably in two years three years. I read it for a show a while back, but I'm reading it. And and it's funny because obviously the situations between post I. Reward Germany, and where we are. Now, totally different. We're not in a defeat period. We haven't had just, you know, the the great depression, all these other things, but when you're reading what Hitler is saying you're going. Wow. A lot of this would apply to now in terms of you know, he's slamming the parliamentarians, and he's talking about how they come out to talk to the voters right around election time, promise them, every I mean, it's the same sort of anger that would play very well in the current society. And I have to say listen, I don't have a Nazih stick bone or really a Bolshevik bone in my body. But I get it. But I mean, I get the frustration when you see government slowly. But surely not functioning at all and certainly not functioning for the common people. But what's funny is how often I don't know if you wanna call it cyclical or whatever. But how how you know the very things that Hitler saying mine comp specifically to appeal. Let's remember that that book was not to be this great historical documents that we could read it. Now, it was meant for a political treaties for himself in that era. How well that. Would play today. You know, I think people would be scared. If I said, go read mine comes to find out where Hitler is political spectrum because I think they would think don't tell people to do that. Fame might like it. Absolutely. I think he's I mean as been done time and time again the whole quoting from mine com. Not saying that it's lowering front of cheering crowds who go this. Great. And then you tell them by the way that was Hitler. And people flip out, you know, it's like there's a reason for these people as much as it's not very popular into say people like that stuff. Oh, let me give you the converse one that upset me so much. I remember on the radio in the nineteen nineties. I was always talking about freedom and liberty and the this America that was disappearing and right around the time, I was doing this. I remember it was coming home from work, and I'm listening to the radio, and there was a story, and it was some Democrats who had re going from memory here, but they had sort of rewritten the Bill of rights in modern day English. So that it didn't look like the original and then sub mid it. Forgot what this I wanna say it was the house of representatives and a bunch of Republicans came forward and said that it was awful that it would destroy in other words, really we can't have this. And then of course, they sprung the trap on him and said, oh, it's the Bill of rights, and you would vote against it. I think there's a little of that too. Where you turn around. There's a lot of. And this is another reason that I think my current events show has a problem right now is that it's hard for me to relate to a current generation of Americans that very well might look at the Bill of rights and say way way, I don't agree with one four seven. And I mean, I feel like a dinosaur politically, and so having discussions with people along the lines that we used to consider to be normal. You know, twenty thirty years ago, elicits responses that surprise me and not just from, you know, young liberal Americans. But from young conservative Americans to it is one thing though, that I'm getting a lot when I but in which people is that I always got the feedback off though, only send to those people just go ahead. And and these applies burly to you more than than to me. But like many people Meese your boy. Interview many people Meese the presence of voice, that's not all tra- does improve all factionalism all the time. Avoid that's actually trying to make sense out of the Koran scenario not through not particular ideological lances, you know, and it's Bain because inevitably few that you will get the hatred from multiple sides. But at the same time, they're probably the need for it precisely because the times are so in that sense on the other end is a secret secret Danielle Bolelli attempt to try to find the chink in my armor to get me to go do that again. I know what you're up to. I mean, you know it. Well, and we agree. But also, let's let's look at what I'm doing these Vati for me to tell you to it, right? Is like then this is a really important thing that somebody should do it, wink, wink, why don't you do it like, well, yes, that's great. Except that that means you have to deal with all the annoying aspect. That that would not entail. So as much as I'm pushing you're dead direction. Also knowledge that I'm not the best friend did this because that lead you to do something that I'm not doing. So, you know, now speaking of that, let me shift this a little no, no, I don't like this. Because we we spoken of of this specific American meal you here, which is where I live, right? And I don't mean live like geographically, I mean, I am I am. I am a product of this. Right. A very American point of view in a very American attitude, and I realize my my blind spots in my blinders. And when I talk about, you know, the national socialism and people talking about all of these are such Merican phenomena, but the United States is of course, but one part of the planet. Let me ask you you go home to the old country a lot. How does how does how do these trends that we're talking about here in the states? How much is this internationalized and tell me what do you think we'll talk about European youth in general? But let's talk about maybe a Mediterranean youth or talian youth. Specifically, if you have any connection to them at all how much of this is is apparent how much did the situations match and in what ways do you see differences? I mean, other than them discussion about Nunzio fascism, left wing right-wing kind of thing. I mean in the sense that we have established it's based on noise. Stoorikhel evidence whatsoever that stuff probably because people have leaf through. It is now really up for discussion innately, but every single applies in everything is the same. The y'all extreme thou angry functionalism the same lack of solution from one side that Dan push people into voting the other side only to find out that the other side is equally clueless. So then you swim back to I think these are. I don't wanna say universe that ends. Because while the why about evident comforting the word. But a if we stick in the discussion to at least deli. I do see the same dynamics. Play. Okay. Can we call this? A you know, the for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. Could we suggest that this is a natural attitude? You know, populism being the response to a government that is death or that or that is in working for someone else. I mean, another one of the reports came out again, you know, backing up what everybody already knows which is the people that influence policy, at least in the United States are people with tons of money, and the people that have almost no say over policy are the great mass of people how much I would say that in my mind populism. Whether you want to populism of the left or the right, or wherever is a natural reaction perhaps to a government that is death or unresponsive or seemingly working for someone else. And I think you could say in the global sense. I mean, look at the reaction to the EU in Europe. And some of the critiques against it sound an awful lot like critiques against Washington DC by Americans here. And I think that's the problem that, you know, are the human mind Vati by Ari in a we are used to Goudin devote black and white if these or Nori allies in that often the solution is a mix of different impulse is not one extreme or another which doesn't mean anything the scent that either because the center is also a stock position. This is dynamic is constantly changing. And you have to find the right balance in the rights way. Now, that's not the way our minds work. Most people feel e factual is doing something that clearly is not working. The government is no working full owing these philosophy than factual be will be solution. If the powers that being Washington are screwed up than some pop release to show up will be dissolution or vice versa. And what I sees just being bombed game between. Lean stupid ideas, where you know, he's like Diop acetyl face supposed to be but be yet they talk different game. But in terms of result is they're equally poor. And Ray, they're realizing okay phase doesn't believe results. If be dozen deliver results, maybe dry something else. I just see the pingpong gain going back and forth forever. And I'm like really big game where stock on disease. We really not think that there may be more out there than just east to supposedly different alternatives, except that they delete are similarly bad results. That's the part that I find that. I find these is not even about modern US or mother Nita Leo or even the left right political spectrum. I find that like virus of the one mind that we seeing in these binary opposites the Vati early actually match reality. Let me propose another idea. There's a a wonderful punk rock singer, John Lydon, he's to be called, Johnny rotten. He wrote a wonderful book, and the title is wonderful called anger is an energy. And I would I would propose that. I'm speaking for the United States here, specifically, I would I would suggest that most Americans in normal times don't care that much about politics. But when it's apparent that life is getting difficult and that and that the situation appears to be extremely unfair that the anger rises, and all of a sudden people who are not normally interested in politics or interested because it affects them. So for example, I've said forever that if if the United States can't figure out a way to do better for poor people and lower middle class people that those people will make the rest of us feel their pain. Eventually, right. They will only put up with it for certain period of time. And there's a tipping point if they're get to be too, many of those people no matter how much you want to justify. I just parroting align here, right? The United States this great capitalist system where you know, if you've got what it takes you will make it. And if you don't you won't that sounds great on paper. But if enough people fall into the we don't make it category. They're going to decide that that systems unsustainable. And they're gonna change it whether or not on paper, this is the right philosophical system that to me is is where you get populism. Where people are just saying the system as constructive is not working. There are people who are doing very well. And then they convert doing very well into influencing the government with their cash, which even doubles down on the situation. It makes it worse. Eventually, you get populist anger on all sides, if those people could ever unite you'd have a real interesting. I mean that that is a little bit where you wonder if this isn't the shiny object being used by our typical politicians to keep us from uniting against them. Right fight against each other. And don't notice what's going on behind the curtain. But I think what you may see now globally is if you get enough people that can't feel. Feed their kids or can't afford any healthcare and they're sick. And there's enough of them. They're not gonna put up with it. I mean history shows they're not going to put up with it forever. So I don't know why we should be surprised when they don't. And as everybody knows you have two choices when they flip out either, you get into some radical changes, or you crack down on them, which leads to a more repressive state, which nobody in this country wants, absolutely. And I think that's I think you really hit the nail on the head on that one because as much as I'm not big believer in conspiracy theories. And I tend to think that those usually are based on very lazy thinking, but you can tell to think that when there are reality major issues at lay that are ever discuss where the spotlight is hardly ever shown there where real business that been closed ours. And in the meantime, they have you fighting about transgender bathrooms or something that I don't mean to trivialize by really in terms of the grades. Chemo seeings not quite as big of an issue as let's say where we are going today in terms of the sustainability of our relationship with the planet of sources of energy off, you know, ten thousand other seeings that are at the key of whether the Uman race has future or not. I can't that by think that there may be an element of the structure play there. That is like, yeah. Got them to fight along ideological lines about completely irrelevant topics to the Theriault business. Not relevant went any single individual life. Of course, it said unto some individual life, but I'm relevant in terms of what the real business is about what the big decisions got to be made of. And that way, we steal got to do business as usual behind closed doors while they are fighting each other over something something else. Oh, we are very manipulate -able. And this isn't a conspiracy theory. This is this is how politics works. I mean, you can't call that conspiracies when when the political systems. Understood how to do this forever. I mean, perfect example is used to interview politicians all the time on the radio and some of them became good friends of mine, and they were very upfront about how things work. I mean, for example, they would talk about the problem of fund raising when you would get between election. So when you get to this dead zone that was quite a distance between maybe call it an equal distance between two elections, and it was hard to raise funds. They would go and agreed to the Republicans and the Democrats to bring up a Bill affecting one of those issues that just gets money pouring into the coffers on both sides abortion or guns or whatever as as this. This was a bipartisan effort to fan and whip up the base so that they started. So you had something to go back and ask for contributions for that's not a conspiracy, that's politics, except so I mean, if people get upset with that, I understand the populist anger because you know, as problems that we all see around us get worse, you become more and more frustrated with the lack of attention to them. Now, this kind of leads into another subject you wanted to talk about you wanted to talk about if not these political leaders who and I'll let you set that up. Yeah. Let's play with the Dan Carling time machine. Call and so and so if you at peak when bast US, but I said, which of course, could easy because one, but I wouldn't have the knowledge of the modern world that we have. But in a more, you know, let's say you give them a few years to catch off to what's going on today, personality wise, if there was one past US, but I wouldn't mind seeing the White House today. Is there anybody if there's anybody would be while you sorta screwed up my answer to because you issued the disclaimer that I was going to throw it initially, which is I don't think you could bring back any nineteenth century presidents and bring them up to speed with the America of today. So that they could operate. That's because that's because I know you too. Well, and I close. That question. I was like I gotta go. So let me. It limits. The choices that's all. You know, it's funny because this is a question that gets to one's own political beliefs because obviously I'm going to pick the president. That solves the things that I believe are problems, which may not be what other people believe our problems. I thought about this a little bit to me. I think I gotta bring back somebody who's going to figure out how to give the United States a soft landing from where we are now. And they were going to be people that don't believe we need a soft landing or any kind of landing. But what I mean by that is if you look, and this again, my personal opinion if you look at where the United States is now, let's call it. What it is. It's an empire. And it's not just an empire. I always blow people's minds when I point this out. It's the most powerful empire in global history. Okay. And it's not even close. So when you say that Americans are so are so conditioned to believe that they're not an empire that that's simply strikes them incorrectly. Feel. It feels like you're making a political statement by even saying that right because we're not like Nazi Germany. We're not like the Mongols. No, we're a commercial empire think Athens, right or or something like that rethink Carthage. That's what we're like. And we, and we we exert very light touch with with client states and friendly states and alliance systems. We have a navy that controls the seas protects the trade routes all these kind of things, but that to me is unsustainable. Right. Whatever it is six eight hundred basis, whatever it is around the world. I mean if that's not an empire. I don't know. What is? So I always say that people will how do you think that's going to turn out long-term, right? In other words, project one hundred years from now, whereas the American empire project you hundred years from now if it's not there to under years from now what happened to it? Right. My attitude is that this is unsustainable. But I think the people in the United States government and the halls of power and many Americans assume that the conditions we have now. US global dominance or the where we'd like to use his global leadership that this is ever present and unending that this is the status quo for the rest of history moving forward, which is ridiculous. And as we all understand from what was it foreign policy one. Oh, one the balance of power principles. It naturally when you have one overriding power in naturally creates an interest for other global powers to coalesce to counterbalance it which leads to either terrible wars eventually or eventually some country bankrupting itself trying to keep the status quo. So when you ask me which president I would bring back I would bring back somebody who both recognized that and would be in a position to do something about it. And it would take very special kind of person. So I always go to Eisenhower. Disclaimer general slash president. Eisenhower did a lot of things that I think were awful, and that got the country into worse situations, for example, he was a fervent user of like the CIA to undermine countries. And all these kind of things, but but I would suggest that that is part of the air. He lived in and certain challenges from that nineteen fifties, you know, war against communism that that I would give him a little bit of pass on what I would say about Eisenhower, though. And why I would choose him over those nineteenth century guys. He's a guy who straddled the divide. He was born in one America, and he was president of another America. And he remembered what the old America was like, right? What you know what I always get angry at with Americans will talk to me about my political beliefs on the empire thing, they will always say to me. Well, you're an isolationist. And I was another nice elation. I want the American foreign policy that existed from the beginning of the country to about the second World War. I don't if that's isolated as you know. I'm sure the Mexicans and the native Americans and the Canadians and a bunch of other people would go. Well, it doesn't seem very isolated to me. But my point is that Eisenhower was born it enormously rock well up. Bringing and understood that that's the America that if we could get back to that we should. And when you look at his comments, he understood totally that it was an unsustainable and temporary situation that we were in in the post second World War world, and he was looking for ways out, right? When can we get out of Europe and let the Europeans resume, you know, their normal operations and they control their area, and they defend their area. He was looking for landing zones. How do we get out of these commitments in a way that safe, right? He didn't wanna leave anybody in the lurch. He realized that you had to be careful, but that's why he gave that military industrial complex speech at the end of his presidency. Because he realized that this is not sustainable, nor is it healthy long-term, but it is profitable for some people. So you have to be careful because eventually that profitability for some people become addictive, and it's funny that so many of the people that decry US social programs don't realize that the number one. Transfer of wealth that I can think of especially if you're talking about the discretionary part of the US budget is from the American taxpayer to a bunch of companies that make military hardware. I mean that that is military Keynesianism right there. So when you ask what president I get you need a president that can one see the unsustainability. I think Eisenhower pointed that out when it was a lot less bad than it is now, by the way, I also think he understood what America really was because he grew up in it. So so in his mind's eye he would like to as much as you, can, you know, given the realities of the twentieth century get back to that. And he remembers what the road back looked like Finally, I think the fact that the guy was a general makes a huge difference because in our country. It is so easy to tar and feather civilian when they start talking about changing, you know, the global military balance of power and all this. Whereas Eisenhower knew all those generals air force guys and admirals by name purse. Personally, he played bridge with them. Right. He did not fear them. He could go right up to them and say, you know, Bob, this is ridiculous. The country can't afford it or whatever. And no American person's gonna think he's soft on defense. So when you talk about what Dan Carlin thinks the country should have to get back on an even keel. This is my own personal bias, you're going to take in my mind guy. Like Eisenhower is going to be required to do it. Now, did he do a lot of things? I don't like he absolutely did. But I don't have any presidents who are perfect. Making their nineteenth century guys. I would like sure, but they're not going to be able to. I mean, if you put them in the White House, even if you tried to bring them up to speed the country that they're going to be dealing with doesn't even resemble the one that they came from. So to me, it's gotta be somebody who at least existed in time where the country had some semblance of what it's like now in order to adequately contend with the problem. So I'm picking Eisenhower. Do you have a person you would pick? Well, I mean as you said that are no perfect guys. And in some cases, our readers Lukin, vanity defended of perfection because some of their downsides are very heavy. But one guy like I can tell boating personality, but only because his little mentally deranged, which seems to be one of the characteristic site. I race donate. Well, wait, but I did this three per series until the Roosevelt and as much okay? Let's tweeden negatives. But it was never swear war. He didn't like see was ridiculously impulsive vanity hawkish in terms of foreign policy all staff that I'm not particularly fond of. So what is that? I like about the injustice clarify again the'll the Roosevelt Vanity Fair from frankly, the latter was vote so just as remind, but there was one of the that idea is concerts one. He's environmental policies. I do also, you know, he's the one guy that I've ever seen push the best environmental policies in terms of price ident, and he that to me sons in that's food be bipartisan, the Shufu be something that everybody goes behind because he doesn't matter where you feed ideologically, you have always in your wallet there or in the area beneath so somebody made that already Bart onto me. And also, I really like sweetness to challenge the corruption in. Both Bharti's, you know, he's to this day. He's the best third by forever modern dimes. He he was vanity open about going hard against people inspired the as well as people in other parts, there's a court office that I really loved that Antonino quotes are easy to stuff easy to say every politician lever and good speech. And then no follow up butting. There's of the way he did follow up on some of these issues something I Mike, but there's this cool where he goes forty two. Cal buyer this exceeds to secure responsible government and execute the wheel of the people from these great dusts both of the old buyer of toward aside instead of installments, but Degen that allowed fair they have become the tour of corrupting Driss, which used them. Byerly to Salvador sunfish purpose behind a stencil government seats in thrown any invisible. Government will Noah. Allegiance and knowledge. Notable sub eighty two people to destroy these invisible. Government to the soul of the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first USC of the statement she of the day. I don't disagree with that coal mine there annoys like evidencing these that on and I found that he sucked shows in terms of knocking down on corruption wear thirteen Hillary needed. So when you put those two together he in vitamin policy said Indies aptitude in terms off factionalism slush corruption those are characteristics. That I think are extremely Bharat on Tuesday. You know, I always was fascinated with the if you talk about life lessons, it would it would have been interesting had Roosevelt gone through in my opinion. I mean, one of the things I find interesting about the guys he's a very for those who don't remember. Or know Roosevelt was an I called him in a Drennan junkie. I always think about teddy Roosevelt in terms of how what kind of president he would have been more at the end of his life than when he actually was. Because when he was president in some ways, he reminded me of my grandfather who I always thought was like Batman and teddy Roosevelt always wanted to be like Batman. And when I was a kid I love teddy Roosevelt because he was like a big kid who played with toy soldiers and thought all that would. I mean. Yeah. I mean that to me that that's that's I like that as a present. But as I got older, I thought, okay? This is a dangerous guy who thinks war is wonderful and her roic and grand. But here's the thing. He goes through it. And by the way, his experiences, we all know when he was fighting in the Spanish American war. In his mind was glorious grant. And he had a great time. And it was wonderful. You know war was a game then, but then you get to the first World War, which he actively wanted to get into. And he loses kids, right? His kids die in the war. And it changed him. You know, and that is the Roosevelt that happens after that happens might have been in my mind, a more well rounded figure than the guy who was actually in the White House. So so in that sense, I think in a weird way. And it sounds like like disrespectful to say. So, but I mean, I feel like the guy grew up in a way that would have made him like you said, I mean, a president who fights corruption and he was known as the trust BUSTER. I mean, he would have gone in and taken on some of the big corporations today. Which would I always argue, by the way, this is an aside. But what I was arguing Americans wanna tiny tiny tiny little government is who's going to protect us against the giant giant giant corpora? Nations. Right. There's there's a balance there and teddy Roosevelt understood that the government needs to be like a fire, which is what had early American writer once said, a president wants the government is like fire that you know, if you don't have it your freeze to death. But if it gets out of control at burns, everything around it. But what that means it is it needs to be tended at just the right level. Just the right level is one that protect the people from something like a giant international corporation that runs rush shot over our rights and freedoms. But not so large that it runs roughshod over our rights and freedoms. So yeah, I it's interesting that both you, and I picked Republican presidents, isn't it until it's well, I mean, even if you need show off. That's why you'll demo them come to me like spatially when you go fire backing dime. You know, that's why eventually Roosevelt didn't fit in with anybody. You know, he didn't fifteen with Republican party the Democratic Party. He was t- sold thing. Because he up said them old, you know, he did seeings. If I were to be done like on Unani direction in some way, ideologically he would be considered very right wing and some ways ideologically would be considered very left wing. That's another thing about him, the fed that he didn't seem to be as leave to an ideology old ways going with the playbook coffee Sparty, but very much making peace mind as he went noth- feeling the need to constantly. Fi teen we to what's could see the acceptable by voters, which I think was kind of making fun. You know, what he was going to argue before jumping why maybe we can put a wonderful bow tie on the whole conversation here because you had mentioned that the, you know to talk about Democrats and Republicans before the modern era is to talk about parties that were so different that the comparisons don't even work anymore. I'm a perfect example of that is when I was looking for Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt speeches for the latest hardcore history show, I was listening to some of the campaign speeches of that era. So we'll talk about the nineteen forty presidential campaign. So Roosevelt's opponent was a guy named Wendell willkie who is a businessman and the Republican, and he's giving speeches, and if you went and looked and you can find them online to his speech or his conversation to the camera. I don't think it was official speech is more like a a what would you call? It a filmed campaign commercial, maybe by that standards of that era. You can see how much. The United States has moved to the right totally. Because if I if I played Wilkie speech today, and I didn't identify what it was. There is not a person who would hear it who would think that it was anything, but a left is speech. But remember that this is the guy to the right of the guy who's gonna crush him in the election. Right. So so to me that we talked about gold water being the real person who changed the American conservative movement of from where it was to where it is. Which was a hard move to the right? And then what Reagan did who supposedly, you know, gold water laid the foundation for Reagan who fifty a fourteen years later, you know, comes to fruition. Reagan move the Democratic Party to the right both parties are to the right of where they were in nineteen forty which if you said to somebody who wants to make America great where we great in nineteen forty. They would probably say we'll greater than we are today. Go look at the campaign speeches from both the democratic. And Republican presidential hopefuls in nineteen forty and see if you could agree with either one of those if you're on the conservative side of things now, that's what of the funny things about leukaemia story nauseous in stock in the preser- that. Yeah, you do see these changes, and you can tell about spying at it because. Yes, that would be a shock to a lot of people. Well, and it listed as you know, I'm not saying that this is right or wrong. I'm simply this is not fake news. I mean, people can go check this out for themselves. You may say thank goodness the United States and the world has moved to the right, politically or you may say it's a tragedy. But it's fascinating that we have and things I mean, the Republican presidential hopeful in nineteen forty is talking about expanding social programs that today people on the right side of the ledger. Wanna get rid of totally? So again, you know, when we talk about going back to another America. I don't think people understand what the other America was. And this is why I have. Such a hard time doing my current events show now because that was always what I was suggesting that we need to get back to some of the foundational ideas that when I was a kid. Nobody would have argued with you might have argued over. If I said, we need to get more liberty because we've been reducing our personal freedom. And all that a lot of people say, yeah. But then when you get down to specifics might argue with oh, I don't mean that or I don't mean this. But today when I say things like that I get pushed back from young people on both sides of the political spectrum. In other words, I as an old fashioned American 'em so out of touch with today's political world because they're not like that. So so I have a hard time in the old days. You used to be able to base argument on certain fundamental truths that everyone agreed with and now no one agrees with those truth. So even something like liberty. That's a bad word in some circles now, and when you use it in the circles that use it, and like it they don't mean it the way I mean it so I think that's one of the things that I've always these like when I argue with some people who are pushing it's all about freedom freedom fit. I'm like, I got it. I like freedom as a cool thing. So I'm assuming you are in favor of funding the war on drugs legalizing. Institution under Galizien euthanasia, and they're like Arnold. That's not what I meant. I'm like, okay. Then probably we should have a dictionary talk first about what you mean when you say don't because to me that individual rights. You know, you have the right put whatever you want in your body as long as you're not affecting somebody else if people want to sell sex as long as nobody's being forced the of the right to do. So and they have the right to die as they wish, you know. And I'm not even saying that's a good or a bad thing. I'm just saying if you are going to scream freedom probably that would be a consistent way to go about it. But often as you say what people mean by surfin wards is not really is not really the same. Meaning that everybody. See? And that's why I think served in words are boys them like we should the last week. It was them the bet there because they are. So hopelessly vague that everybody projected that own meanings on it. You know, when's the last time you were a candidate anywhere saying that the? Are against freedom that yet we hate freedom. And we need to squash Fredo more. When is that? We are you know, therms even like left wing right wing as we started. Wait are so vague terms like socialism, communism. They are all things that are like. You can have a discussion going on for our Switzerland body, never realizing that you are not talking about the same thing in the first place because he has signed defend meaning pseudo Scone sets. And I think these defied on social media where you don't have the time to go away stuff echo. What did you mean by that and sued these discussion goal forever? Where really there's not even an agreement about what it is. They are talking about except that you're using the same ward. Oh, it's like what we had set when I said that there was that translation of the Bill of rights into common language and people were against it. There was a famous, quote, I forgot who said it. But it was it was years ago. So it shows you how little in some ways things have changed where I think it was a political figure may not have been who said the Bill of rights would not even get out of committee. If you try to pass it today. People today adhere to a bunch of marketing slogans like when you say the national anthem or the pledge of allegiance or any of these things. All these wonderful words come out. And we cherish them. And we almost treat them with a sort of a religious devotion. But never delve into what they mean, nor talk about you know, what what what would you say something liberty? What is the practical? Meaning that right. And this is where you get into the devil's in the details question, but if I was in charge of the school curriculum. These are the kind of things we would be asking. Right. What do we mean? Are we talking about just political rights, which is in one time period that they were talking about because in seventeen eighty seven you had a lot of states that felt just fine cracking down on people's morals. And didn't think about that as an infringement on their liberty at all? But you go to the nineteen sixties. And there was a whole new generation of Americans that were saying, wait a minute. We believe in liberty to but liberty means my right to do what I want as long as it doesn't hurt someone else. What was Justice Oliver Wendell home said the right to swing? My fist ends where the other man's nose begins. What I've said is we live in an era where everybody's noses are growing. Mystically longer. Right. And so so if you change what constitutes harm that's the equivalent of being Pinocchio, and it becomes a time period. Where now nobody can swing their fist without contacting someone's ever elongated nose, which means that our liberal is all being is all being constrained. Because now we hurt people with comments on Twitter, right? As the hose to the real infringement on liberty is telling somebody, no you can't walk on this side of town. That's an infringement on liberty that everybody fifty years ago would have understood didn't mean that they were gonna let black folks cross over the tracks and go to their site of town. But they would have understood it in this day and age we're so easily hurt and if that becomes the Oliver Wendell Holmes point at which we can restrict people's behavior and liberty we aren't going to be able to do anything. And that's a funny thing that everybody and these across the political spectrum. Hey, everybody seemed to love play the victim the people who scream about our everybody else's playing. The victim often are doing thima. Can you believe what they are doing to us kind of way? There's this culture of victimhood. That's people. It's almost like you're squatting appoint if you are the beaten underdog and people seem to really thrive on like, it seemed to be a popular cones of today. Let me ask a question because I don't know the answer. But I wonder about it a lot curious on your view short. I can't decide if Americans today, and I say Americans today, I'm talking about the grand hall. But I think when we're talking about technology being the way we figure this out. We're probably skewing young on that. Right. Are Americans today just more jerks than they used to be or are we more able to express ourselves? And so we see that Americans, and I'm saying Americans, but this is a global phenomenon is this a culture where where just trolls to each other all the time or is this because of our ability to express ourselves has become democratized with social media, everything that we're just seeing how Americans and other people around the world would have been fifty years ago. They had the tools had had Nazi Germany been on Twitter with with with a chamberlain's Britain and France of the time period and imperial Japan. I mean, can we imagine the nineteen forties world with our social media? Now, would we have been any nicer to each other? Or is this in other words, I guess I'm asking is this a human phenomenon or are we seeing a change in people's attitudes? That is a result of the interplay between social media and. Political situation. I think my feel Onate is that it's eighty percent human nature and twenty percents some social conditions that have trained fire because of but also just loneliness value nation in his very definitive arriving discussions, if there's a community that you are fired off if you have discussions face to face if you are used to mediating their regard, or if you are in your lowly for walls one roof fund, you don't need to have the kind of. You don't go that Masol that allow you to mediate with other people in the regular be's because you don't have to. And so your communication is going to be an avid much more rob than the harsh. I think both fact on I out than to say, you my nature of human nature doesn't change radically. But I do think that online communication, and and heavy loneliness that most people feel by nor really being part of something larger often what's going on within their own four walls that could three Butte to not developing that ability to have more nuance or Madel conversations with other on beings. Let me tie in something that may or may not be relevant. But it's interesting because as you say that I'm thinking about something I was discussing with somebody just the other day, and it has to do with several articles. I've been reading about young people not dating as much as they used to not have. In other words, not going out to clubs to meet each other the way we used to when I was a kid. In other words, if you think of young people as having a constant sort of a temperament throughout most of history, right? We're gonna go out. We're gonna meet some girls, go out all these things that we used to consider to be just normal human things when we were kids fast forward to now where we've introduced a variable the technology right something that had never been a part of the debate before. And now we're seeing generation of people and again broad generalizations here. But I mean, I've got two kids who are teenagers myself. They don't date as much as we did they they don't have face to face conversations. They don't know how to walk up to somebody that makes them nervous and asked them out. I mean, maybe this is something that's a variable that changes in a question that used to be pretty consistent throughout most of human history because we were dealing with human beings, and they can be pretty consistent across variable spectrum. But, but but you add this social media thing. And social media, but it's the whole thing. Right. Social media encompassing, everything including texting I mean, everything and you have an entire of maybe generation, and it's going to be interesting when they're the parents raising the next generation of people who interact with each other in very different ways. And so maybe in the same way that I would have thought it would be much easier to ask a girl out on a date just by texting her than having to walk up in front of her and deal with the the embarrassment of being shot down in person. If that happens, maybe it's easier to call somebody a jerk or maybe it's easier to say, you know, to pick a fight or call people names when you don't have to do it face to face. Maybe that's a function of technology upset, and I think that is I mean what a change in the ruler. So if you meant communication in teen couple of decades, and we have no blueprint for out to do it in always kind of like somebody who got the wheel of a car. And as never known anybody that over car never Dona car, they they don't have any user man while and his glad let's see what happens kind of thing. We are playing dangerous games a health in some ways a dutiful game because so many amazing scenes of app into less twenty years because of ecological innovation. So my no means the back in my days before disease technologies does allow up. That's not what I'm saying at told. But there are clearly Samis shoes that we haven't really figured out to deal wit that are as much as they are contributing to create more opportunities and some amazing stuff. They're also contribute into some serious problems that we have no solution to I think that leads into the last thing we were thinking about discussing today, the the trends and forces and the ability of an individual to make a difference in an era where it seems like there's so much. How would you describe it? Danielle. I mean, we always used to just call it trends and forces versus individual initiative, but I mean in the social media thing, I mean, I was just I was reading a review of book by Sheshona Zubov. It's called surveillance capitalism. And it's just another one in a long line of books that's explaining how we're being diced. And and and categorized and files are essentially being kept on all of us based on browsing histories and all these kinds of things and how dangerous this is. If you think about, you know, what's going to happen down the road with all of this, and yet how passive so many of the younger generation are about this and passive not so much because maybe they don't see that it might be bad, but passive because they feel powerless it. What are you gonna do? Right. You're not going to participate in the modern world. Just because everybody is is putting together a predictive technologies that will begin to be able to to know where you're going to be next week ahead of time. Time. Maybe let's let's introduce this topic. Because it was the last thing we wanted to discuss today, but the question of of how much individual initiative compla- role versus the trends and forces that we're all operating in. And I think that is the problems and thing we'd slow moving catastrophes. You know, you see where it's going. You can tell way ahead that their action is not a healthy one. And yet there's nothing you can do to steer or at least, you don't feel like think like seeing like, you know, your CIA's that you did on the fall of the Roman Republic, for example. It's very clear that rance you allies don't happen overnight. They don't that any one year or in tannery fief. Do you can see them from like two hundred years before sprouse is beginning and many people are seeing along the way they scream and shout saying we need to do something about it. And clearly nobody's able to course. Correct. For real end of where to hold scenario going. Sometime, you know, that he's something to be said about you don't wanna see of throw up your average say world, powerless forgot lead justified weekend because it's all going in a bad direction. Anyway. But at the same time sometime you won their matches in individual you have an impact on the major historic forces. I think he's through examples of bolt we have examples of individuals who have managed make humongous the fence. But we have even more examples of dying where you see where seeing are going. We doubt the ability to do something about it. I mean, I mentioned earlier something like invite a mental issues. The fact that we leave on a society, that's essentially polluting the very food. We ordered the air. We. Eighth in. We we all know it. We all understand. That's problem. Nobody likes it. And yet we're not able to make switch or you know, if we are able to taking vanities mos- steps when something is moving faster and more action is needed debt down to a lot about the Senate end. You know, you can look at basically every major civilization that has collapsed usually the warning signs where our long before they did collapse. Didn't that any one day and yet despite the fed that there were probably vanities Myrick people leaving in those places dedom- dialed being able to fix it. So I'm not sure whether I have basically me stick or opportunistic view of seeing in these because I can't think of examples where occasionally individuals have made a big defendants, but your so get your I kind of see the same discussion as you'd wing common science where you feel like easy really worked. I might. Making fences these candies. Redeem boxing's or not I look at you know, for me, I think some of this problem. I have a hard time with because I've just spent some of this conversation talking about how much I believe in liberty and freedom, and and people in all these kinds of things, and yet there are certain kinds of problems that don't lend itself, it seems to me. And again, I could be wrong about this. I think we're watching it unfold, and I'm trying to to learn as we see also. But I mean, there are certain kinds of issues that it seems like a instead of democracy because some of them are Republic. Some of them are parliamentarians people get hung up over words, but we'll call it a voter driven system. Maybe there are some problems that seem to be difficult for a voter driven system to deal with and usually they are long term problems. There's only one aspect of the of the totalitarian systems that I've ever been jealous of and that is their ability to plan long-term. So the the communists used to have in the Soviet Union five year plans and tenure. Plans. I'm jealous of those. Because to me something like that would be unsustainable because we'd elected different president. If we didn't like the plan, and we change course. But, but so many of these problems require trade-offs between the now and the later and people, for example, if you said to me, listen, Dan, we're going to have to make changes because of the environmental situation that will hurt you and your family now, but will benefit countless generations into the future that is a hard pill for people to swallow who are trying to keep their heads above water now. Right. Think about I always think about superman if you go back, and you read the superman origin story, it seems terribly prophetic for now. Right crypt on's going to explode. Superman's dad goes and tells the people on the council, listen we have to plan for this. It's going to happen. They laugh at him. And of course, we know what happens, right? There's something to that. Now where I mean look at what happened in France where the government there tries to implement climate change protocols, disagree with them. I agree with the specific plans. They chose doesn't matter. But the people then rebel because they're the ones who are going to have to pay the tax for that. Now people who aren't making enough money to make ends meet now, and so they rebel against that. You kind of got I don't wanna live in in a system where the only way we're going to make the world survive is to overthrow the will of the voters because the will of the voters can't possibly sacrifice now for generations yet on born. And yet that seems to me to be a chink in armor in a democracy or a parliamentary system or a Republic any thoughts on the I think that plays into the trends and forces thing because I think I think if the trends are bad long-term, and they require us to all sacrifice, maybe sacrifice for our lives. Now for children yet on born. I think that's really difficult for us to imagine doing. And then you throw in the corruption where there are people who are going heck, I'm making money. Now. This isn't a I'm not going to not cut these trees down. Now, I won't. Live to benefit from these the money. These trees will make you know hundred years from now two hundred and I certainly won't benefit from using them as a carbon sink. I think the system works against a solving those kind of long term problems in the long term problems are ex stencil. Then what does that mean? There was a great line of congressman the beating with the Roosevelt back in the day about in vitamin policies. And the guy say like he'd you're not post Stati, what is suppose steady ever done for me. Well, listen, it's and it's more than that. Because everybody likes to focus on the climate change question because it's right in our face. And we get into the question of is there isn't there, and blah, blah to me once again, that's the shiny object. Because there are the even if you want to say that we must do something about okay have that debate elsewhere, but whose against clean water, right? I mean, there's there's a number of these pollution issues where you're going really can't we agree on? Let's pollute the fresh water. But we but Tebessa exactly like yesterday. Democratic is clean water Republican Democratic it's crazy same short term long term deal. Yeah. It is. And I think that's the problem that you know, as long as short term special interest ruling the conversation his Vati hired web any kind of long-term discussion about what benefits you monitors a whole for. Well, and how does it how does it to the imperial debate? I mean, there was a wonderful sixty minutes story. A while back that was talking about tanks armored vehicles, right and congress was voting on. Should we are should we build more tanks and the military came to congress and said, we don't need any more tanks. We have them all sitting on lots. They're all covered up. We have more than we need. And yet they voted for more tanks because the people in the districts of the representatives make a living building stuff for tanks. So in other words, it's the tail wagging the dog there, and we have a system where we're going to continue this imperial sort of thing for what is in Howard talked about right? The military industrial complex not. Just because it benefits the big fat cats in the in the in the corporations that make this stuff, but because it benefits the workers themselves who are trying to feed their family and put food on the table. Absolutely. That I think that's where sometime clash of interest. Is what leads to decisions that seem to make no sense. Let me just say bombing everybody out. Let me try to throw a lighthearted one on that. We can maybe Rupp's stop on the Dan Carling time machine. Forget bring him back US. But I forgot I know that are places where you would like to be a fly on wall in terms of historical reality, you know, being the battle of Canada would be fascinating, many ways would probably not be fun. Right. Not be like a heck UK. Joni would be a what would be a hefty one while it would be you know, if you do have your Don Carlynn machine place, where he would mind hanging out for a while for fun. Not for while. I wonder what it would be. Like to see that live. But for noise could we have a good time for at least a couple of hours. All I think of silly things that that gets kind of personal where I'm sitting here going. I wanna see a boxing match between. Dempsey, Jack Dempsey. I wanna see I wanna see things that were happening before I was born that I'm interested in. So instead of a real giant historical event like the signing of the declaration of independence. I get down to silly little personal things. Like, I wanna see this. Or I wanna see, you know, I, you know, there's a movie, and you know, it field of dreams, right? Where where the the guy goes back and gets to play baseball with his dad in a sort of a ghostly sort of sense. And I get personal with that. Like, I'd like to go meet my grandfather when he was thirty years old and pal around with him. So that's that's not really like global history that's personal history. Of course, that's what makes it fun sometime. But that, but those are the kind of things that that that fill up like the top ten list of things I'd like to go back to I'd have to get down to number twenty number thirty number forty on the list before I met these giant political events, and unless you're talking about the dark stuff and then. Get I mean, when you talked about wanting to see the battle of of Kenny or any of those kinds of things those those are because I don't know the answers. So and a lot of people don't know this. But nobody has any idea what ancient warfare was like, you can't reconstruct it, and there's been a lot of attempts to do. So of course, you know, my mind says I want to be suspended a hot air balloon one hundred and fifty feet above that battle. So I can see exactly what the physics of, you know, ancient combat looked like right? So those are the and those really aren't about history there about answering long standing questions that I've had so that, but what about you? Let me let me return to to turn the question around me. Where would you like to be? In a game where I would like to be probably for two hours because before mother medecine the lack of their medicine exceed that is a whole different scenario. But I am absolutely fascinated. We'd he stayed societies. So even going way back in the day like what these life liking handing gathered in try like the way we have lived for most of human. He study than thousand the or as the last ice age is giving away, and and you already is coming into being what would that feel like now again, give myself two hours because by Dan, you know, I feel like between beta or seating Mehan the thrive next door club me on the head or six like that may get unpleasant eighty five, but that would be one that fascinates me quite a bit. I was reading some interesting books on some of the some of the studies that were done in the early and mid twentieth century by some of these people that were trying to to recreate as best they. They could exactly what you were talking about. So they were going to the last few societies on the planet that still basically functioned as they used to. So NEW GUINEA was one of the places that they used to go to and there are photographs of these tribes in NEW GUINEA that are fighting each other that the archaeologist or it's an anthropologist at the anthropologist took photos of and then try to extrapolate what you learned from watching those tribes to every other pre industrial state throughout his to me. That's the closest you can come to a time machine to try to see what it was that you wanted to see and it's a little sad. It's a little like the extinction of animal species. But it would be a lot harder to do that today. If you wanted to you might have to invade some of those few islands off the coast of India, or whatever where there are still although that could be dangerous to as we have seen exactly. See I have to turn it dark somehow at the end I was trying to go for the lights on. Now. This is proprietary Danielle. We leave it on the dark side. I see. Okay. That's that's the way it goes. Well, thank you so much for to converse. Ation? Thank you. Big thing to Mr Deng Carleen for joining me this conversation. So that to talk to him, and I hope you guys enjoyed it. I also want to say thank you to Susan moss owed on the model. Got Defoe response in keystone fire on they don't under what on their level. And now I also want to give thanks to the values phone source wire into keeping the lights out there. He stood on fire is sponsored by four hime calm once shop for hair loss, skincare and sexual wellness for men at four hime, you can find well known genetic Vallance to name brand prescription to outfight there. No waiting room. You don't have to wait for Dr visa, it's you don't need to stay line. In other words, these guys save Bondra, followers, and you can do that. By just going four hime. 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EP7 Hardcore History On Fire

Dan Carlin's Hardcore History Addendum

1:42:44 hr | 1 year ago

EP7 Hardcore History On Fire

"It's hard core history. Addendum. So in this hardcore history Denham, we're going to have a friend of mine on the program, and it's going to be kind of a cross cast between his show in mine. And I hope you pardon me have a cold right now. So things are a little. Less than perfect. His name is Danielle Bolelli, by the way, you may know him because he's a famous history podcast history on fire. He has another podcast called the drunken Taoist and we've been friends for a long time. And he's wonderful wonderful lyrical voice of his in the way, he looks the past and we've been talking about doing a program together for a while. And the stars just kind of aligned this was recorded a couple of weeks ago, actually, which is good. Because like I said I have a cold now. But Danielle he came only had a couple of things he wanted to talk about and so that's sort of the gist for how the show kind of went in the direction it did. I'll have a few thoughts afterwards because you know, as it always seems to happen, right? I thought good point two or something. I should have brought up during the discussion and didn't. So we'll call that a footnote to the show you're about to hear the cross cast between yours truly, and my friend the great Danielle Bolelli. Okay. Don, let's get playing. One thought that I found the fascinating as of late. I'm seeing a lot on social media Somme forge too. Kind of defined terms. These mostly happening in US. I don't know if these discussion, but through the apennine another parts of the water, but in US seen a lot of discussion regarding the political spectrum what's left wing what's right wing aware phenomena like fascism and Ziesel feet into the spectrum. And you know, personally, I find the whole left wing right wing discussion almost intellectually lazy. Because to me like, I'm not even an interesting if it's an idea of comes from the left winger right-wing to me an idea is either good idea bad idea. We'll cares where it comes from. So even thinking into storms to be in court, just factionalism. However, having said that if we insist on using these storms like left wing right wing than we should probably use them correctly. And what I'm seeing these days. A major attempt to change the way therms of been used historically kind of minds me of the Princess bride. You know, and they say you keep using these ward. I don't think he means what you think it means that sort of the feeding of got in these discussions from. So I would love to get your take on. And you know, we can jump into whole discussion on the saying regarding the political spectrum where our it's changing the meaning feet what he used to mean, historically, and all of that why think a little background probably makes sense before we get started. Because I think we should acknowledge one thing right off the top. And that's that the idea of the political spectrum is a human created thing. And so and so and not just a human created thing. But something that sort of developed organically in revolutionary era, France that was then sort of morphed into something that was used ever since and and ever since people have been trying to figure out how. How you make it better because it's such an imperfect way to describe political positions. So as you, and I both know, but let's review in in pre revolutionary early revolutionary, France. You have an assembly we're all the the people meet and from the speaker's platform on the assembly the people who were the honored, aristocratic, movers and shakers blue bloods. And that's the sci-fi sat on the right side of the assembly and the boys wa we today. Call the middle class or upper middle class to businessmen all the the merchants they sat on the left. And then that became the beginnings of where people would say, you know, a man on the left or a man of the right? And so that's where that initially comes from. And then that became sort of the shorthand that was transposed onto later political systems forever afterwards, whether or not it was a really good description of other societies other countries political systems in places far removed from revolutionary France. Oh, that's how it star. And then from there on what we have here is a human created system that is designed to try to provide a short hand if you will for people's political persuasions and ever since people have realized how inadequate it is to describe, you know, something as complex as people's political beliefs. And that's why ever since there have been attempts to three dimensional is it or create another access to measure other things that the left right political spectrum doesn't measure, and so in that case what we have here now is a a spectrum, which doesn't resemble the one that you and I grew up with. I'm fifty three you're younger than I am. But both of us grew up in an era where the the original tradition. Let's call it traditional for lack of a better word political spectrum was enforce and in that spectrum just so that we have a benchmark from where we can have this conversation from speaking as an American you grew up in a different environment. But in the United States we were taught when I was a kid that the United St.. Dates and other western democracies fell somewhere in the middle of the spectrum and that both ends of the spectrum either the far left or the far right represented extremist philosophies, different kinds of extremist philosophies, but extremists philosophies, and so that's where it started. So the far left when we were growing up was always communism. The far right was always fascism. And so that's why you and I are confused when we hear people today speak about for example, the Nazis being on the left side of the spectrum because on the traditional one. It was always the right side of the spectrum. Now, I should point out that I had a political science professor in the nineteen eighties in college. And this was the first time I ever heard anybody say this who said that really maybe we should think of that linear political spectrum is more of a circle and that the two have to extremes actually have many things in common. So maybe they touch on the other end. But so when we had this discussion, let's remember that this is the spectrum you, and I were operating from in that most people from our era and before. Understood. So now, let's let's let's go from there. So why don't you start by explaining what you're seeing out there that is so discomforting well start to throw ranching to into that political spectrum, which by the way, it succinctly? Correct. Right. That's exactly I we go out. But that's how it was always defined. But something like archaism anarchism. Traditionally was considered an extreme left position in ear. You have, you know, communism, and she's more Comey's amenities and being one considering stream Reich and one extreme left. But they are both shared a fact that they are totally -tarian systems on our tease him on the other end by going radical against the very idea of the state seems to be the opposite end of talibanism. And yet he was never defining any way, shape or form as right-wing cones. If to us Kunsi their old trikes remain left. So what I find weird Indies ease. Blogging surfing movements that you know, they of defined himself as conservative right-wing, they'd opponents. The find him as conservative right-wing, everyone involve was Vati clear about who they wear and what was up and now kind of find completely change the meaning of what used to be something that was pretty much on their stood by everybody. I mean to me it's like it's fun because going Knockin eat the high been Vati familiar with lots of people who are fascist of being in conversation with people who are neo-nazis. So to me, these he's not even a like, a QA to, cultivate, these are actual flesh and blood people who have spoken to and Hugh tell these people that they are left-wing. You don't wanna see the consequences because they hate anything to do with the thermal left-wing, ready make them go berserk on they hate that. So the fed that today in US seen these redefining the spec that on a bicycle places all of the Taliban. Oriane movements film communist, which everybody. Our our new day are left wing's. There's no disagreement there, but from fascist than nods Swart that I'd be not concede. Their right-wing suddenly plugging the mold as left-wing phenomenon. I find it really bizarre to meet seemed like a bowl small Ernie stuff times. Woody define to a ride dictionary. We'll what. Now, let me interrupt you. Because that's exactly what it is. But the and here's the thing. The people who did this redefining very open about it. This wasn't a secret. The problem is is that many of the people who quote them or who or who or who who who ascribe to the same theory don't realize that it's a redefinition. So for example, I said in our little introduction that there have been many attempts since we were kids to try to figure out a better way to define people's political positions other than than this very limiting linear way. Well, there's one of the examples out there that was done as a person who decided to make the question of freedom. The defining force or right? So the political spectrum kind of plugs in x and y what you want, and they can end up showing what you want to depending on the parameters you choose. So if you decide that freedom is going to be the basis for what moves the needle on your spectrum will then yes, one direction might go in the direction of more free in another direction in less free in which case all the totalitarian systems, regardless of their economic viewpoints or whatever belong on one end. And as you said anarchism, probably belongs on the other far extreme I don't have any problem with people redefining the political spectrum as long as they understand that. That's what they've done well known using their own thirty not because if we're using feedom, I if you can vote on one extreme you can put the Taliban ideology said the other extreme, but there's nothing left or right about this. These just a new way of looking at seeing so we shouldn't probably use the therms left wing right wing, which traditional completely for the meaning and blog them into a spectrum veges someth-. Got us in direly one. Let's understand to a little bit about what the the differences of this always were. So for example, when you go back to the original French version, I mean, those people that were sitting on the right side of the assembly those are monarchists, right? So so the extremes in the original system, we're talking about here are people that support the church the air stock recy- the monarchy and the status quo the people on the left side until you got, you know, the the Jakobsen's and all that were actually the equality. Liberty of lazy faire capitalism may be, you know, the take that with a grain of salt, but by the standards of the time and those things change with the times. I mean, certainly if we're gonna talk about what left wing and right wing were in the nineteen thirties is going to be very different than what they were in the seventeen ninety s but I mean from that basis there are there are fundamental differences between you know, the views. I mean, let me give you an example. So so when you look at the the, Nazis, one of the things that catches people up in the United States is the name, the national socialist German Workers Party, right? So so for everyone out there who doesn't know it if we asked what the what kind of a government the North Korean government of today was it's a hereditary dictatorship. Isn't it? It's it's what it is. Right. This is the guy in charge. There is the third generation of father son grandfather of a dictatorial regime that that Brooks, no opposition. And has no has no legislative body with any power at all yet. The official name of that country is the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea. That is marketing, right? That is that is marketing that is exactly what the national socio, the German Workers Party is I mean to Hitler, and his people the the Nazi party of that early era workers was the same as voters and this was a political market. Attempt to try to swing voters. And by the way, the centrist party of Germany in that time period had workers in their name. So this is not an unusual thing. And so, but that but Americans get get so hyped up when they see the word socialist or workers that they automatically assume. Okay. What we have your Bolsheviks, which is nothing of the sort as a matter of fact, I can't think of anyone more opposed to Bolsheviks the Nazis. Yeah. I mean, he blamed them, you know, built his whole platforming absolute position to communism. He was he blamed social for contributing to Germany losing ward won. He, you know, if you look at when he took power, he go read of the more or less leaning element where sympathizing with the nuns movement squash him old with the night of the long knives. Some of the first people he sent to labor camps or socialist. So I mean, it seemed like there's enough evidence there that. The lethal marketing blowing the name should be pretty obvious to everybody. Well, and for those of you, there are German scholars out there who realize I mean, it's it's known as straw, surrealism auto straw, sir, was was part of the very early Nazi party's. Let's just call it the philosophical wing for lack of a better word, and he would have been more. What Americans think of when they accused the Nazis of being a socialist movement, but he was purged early on that side of it. I mean, Hitler took over we would call it today a corporate shell he went in Saul a group of people who already were meeting. I think there were like twenty of them he said in mind comp and he went in there and stole their movement and got rid of the things he didn't like, but the name stuck, you know, I have mine comp sitting here in front of me. You know, I read it for our little conversation here for the fifteenth time, I always feel like people that call the Nazis left wing of never read this book because Hitler, actually slam. The left by name the left over and over and over. He says they chose red for the Nazi flag colors just to piss off the Bolshevik, right? We're stealing their stuff. And we're we're rub it in their faces. It's like illegally you open mind. Come from five pages. You would be clear. Right. He wouldn't even be an issue again. I find some of these part of the reason why bugs military is because I feel that it is designers attempt like that some of the people who have been pushing this notion are doing so not because they actually believe it. But because it's Landau Toco somebody anad zero fascist in the modern political climate. So the idea becomes let's let's paint those guys as the Nazi's fascist because then, you know, we score point overtime more because they actually believe it because if you actually believe it now, you got a serious problem with reading comprehension because he really doesn't take much to see the difference. You know, his like, well, you see you jumped in front of where I was I was going to set that whole Cui Bono thing up here. Like because the more interesting question, isn't we're the Nazis left wing or right wing. It's why does anybody care, right? Right. I mean what what's the practical? Re. I mean, you know, we have arguments over this today, and you go why I mean, this is a a seventy five year old issue. The only reason it matters is how it applies to the modern political situation. So there's a reason that tarring one side or the other with this label is important now to get back to our political spectrum when we were kid in the United States again, I can't speak for Italy. Because when I went to Italy as a kid they were they had a a red flag with a hammer and sickle on some of the buildings in Rome. So. Thirteen percent over the country was calm Unisource on exactly little different than what I grew up with. But but in this country, the reason that we were taught that that the two extremes of the political system. More bad was because you know, this was to teach us let me back up in nineteen sixty four Barry Goldwater. A Senator from Zona ran for president against Lyndon. Johnson. A berry goal waters often labelled as the father of the modern conservative movement. So where you get away from the country club Republicans, and you get down to the Ronald Reagan, kind of Republicans a very different sort of breed, those guys Goldwater had famously said that extremism in the defensive liberty is no vice he's the kind of guy that would have approved of political spectrum where liberty was what moved the needle one way or the other in a case like goal water. The idea that we can. Look at different movements in the United States extreme it was a warning. Right. Don't go too far to the left because if you do you take the left leaning ideas that form something like, liberalism, and you take them to the extreme. And you get to a dangerous territory like communism. And if you take the right wing views, which you know, would be a conservative political viewpoint America, and you take them to extremes you end up with fascism. Well in the monitor I mean, I remember Jona Goldberg wrote a book called liberal fascism, and he's he he along with others. Try to trace a development that links liberalism to Nazism as a way to warn you about the dangers of liberalism, right? This. These people are on the road to Nazism because Nazism's the worst thing we can think of it's also a way, you know, to to say that if you move farther and farther to the right? There's no bad thing on the edge of that right in the old days. You would say don't go too far to the right or it's bad for everybody. Well, if you redefine the political spectrum. So that the right has. Has no connection to nasty political outcomes will then pay just moving farther to the rights. Always good. Right. So there is you know, used to say to right wingers. If we go farther to the right? What happens that's bad? Does it ever reach a point that's negative? And I think that's the Cui Bono part that there are people trying to redefine the idea that going to the extremes to the right side of the political spectrum have any bad outcome at all that to me is the problem. So when when when Goldwater said extremism in the defensive liberty is no vice this is the attitude that if you go to the extreme, right? There's nothing bad about that. Because we're going to get more free. Absolutely, correct. And I think that's exactly the shoe week the framing it as a life tried thing as opposed to totally Terry Anisim versus freedom. I understand that is versus indeed one writes that make perfect sense to me, but don't blog it into a political model that doesn't reflect that told because traditionally there have been extremely totalitarian left wing movement and extremely totalitarian right wing movement. What makes them left wing right wing is not out our with the status because a game both sides idiot eats addity, she's like, for example, in the case of the Nancy's. If you will the seeing that clearly would Mark a more on the right wing side of seeing so why people wear more conservative. So part of them you add the desire to crash labor unions was a key seeing that dial them be Popolare with some of the industrialised in Germany, the desire to go against meaning wage own show be. League in terms of culture wars. You know, there was a whole wave of gay rides feminism moral pin sexually that was sweeping in Germany and neds ease most strongly pitching against so taking a more conservative attitude in terms of even issues that would be recognized today aspired over Nicole chore wars. So you know to me does are deceased. That's then that's what makes them body in the indicates that and also charring in forgotten. That's probably the most important one full is that the bays of the whole ninety movement was built on nationalism in race. Whereas that idea surely the other extreme, you know, the communists were all about the morning donation. Global perspective and class. Exactly, you know, wind was about class. The other one was not the other wonderful who's was on race and nation when was higher article wine was at least do at eighty of course, noneya reality. But at least eighty cutting of equality one was, hey. Heavily in bed with the traditional Josie institutions. The other one was eight based or pushing them or be Betty they all achieve they have flirted. We to the ideas. So I mean when you get it into storms. They couldn't be more different despite defied that they were both totally Terry. Who wanted a strong state? We'll look at the company they keep that's always what what I for domestically as you pointed out. I mean, the Nazis were taking donations from big business. I mean, the whole idea behind socialism is that the people on the means of production while I mean my goodness. The Germans of the nineteen forties had companies like Krupp, and Messerschmitt and Porsche and Henschel. And and you know, a I G Farben I mean, the and those guys didn't go away. That's not at all. Like what you would see in a communist country and looked at the allies that the Germans had. I mean, you mentioned the Italians, but let's look at the the Japanese. I mean, you could never spend the Japanese. As as a left wing regime under any I mean, that's a divine emperor system. Right. And you know, I mean for these people that say that that dictatorships and that kind of lack of freedom is is left wing. Well, what was the Zawra of Russia before the communists took over it? I mean that is the ultimate right wing regime by any stretch of the I mean, that's that's right wing by the French assembly definition of right wing, right? Those are those are a thorough -tarian monarchists the Japanese are not going to ally with a left wing regime. Look at friends Sisto Francisco Franco, look at all of the people that fall into the the the fascist orbit even one Perron in places like Argentina later. None of these people fit the socialist model, even if the name national socialists seems to imply that that's what they are. Absolutely. I think that's what. I find up setting which I think for me there's a little bit of a personal element. 'cause you know, when you think about just not long ago when I think about family history, you know, my grandma that it was literally placing bomb to blow up fascist my inner there's a whole without even going into the whole family biography. There's enough there where these were seeing that people felt very strongly about where he wasn't like some Acadamy feed off debates about their me -nology, and he was Betty the L in terms of your enemies are and who they aren't. And so these effort, though, the Walters I find it really insulting ultimately because it's kind of like changing he's three to suit the one so need in the present. It's not unusual either. I remember when I was on the radio in the nineteen nineties here in Oregon. There was a group called the Oregon citizens alliance, and they were an anti-gay group. I don't even know if they're still around, but but one. Of their members wrote a book called the pink swastika, and the whole point was the same thing you're seeing in the modern day world where people are trying to link Nazism to to the to the current American left is a way to tar and feather them in this case. This anti gay group was trying to link Nazism to gay rights as a way to target for them, the Nazis become the wonderful and use them in my own show this way because they are the benchmark for evil. But I mean, I mean, for example, I have a quote here from from a story that I that I printed out for this discussion today, and it's from some historians who are talking about the same thing we're talking about and they were explaining let me read the post because it he they're talking about all these different right wing writers that have tried to redefine Nazism as a movement of the left as a way to tar and feather modern people on the left, and they wrote as concluding line this. They wrote here with we come to the effect. If not the point of the revisionist exposition, it is not only. To transfer the stigma of the second world wars genocidal violence from the right to the left. So that criticisms of radicalized populism can be dismissed as leftist fascism. It's also jest at the war was a crusade against St. collectivism of all types, including the welfare state for which many westerners, in fact, fought they reasoned by means of a simplistic a historical syllogism since socialism is status slash collectivism, like public health and public transport and Nazism with status and collectivist and promoted public health and public transport social democratic public health and public transport measures must be fascist. In other words, if if you have a, and we have a you're all a right. And that to me is what is what becomes a sneaky little debating trick is the best way to put it because anybody who's read mine comp and thinks that Hitler would put up with being called leftist hasn't really read the book, very. Carefully up Oatley. And I think I can't really boils down to. I believe that our people want us leery this today and believe it probably 'cause they have really read enough before. But I think a lot of the people who are Putin. This stuff out are doing so ineffective easing. Gino's men are all because they believe it. But purely as to call away onto us in day, our political fights today, and again, you know, if we want to throw out completely left-wing right-wing Gumelar for it because I mean thrusting policies that increase the individual freedom. I mean, crazy outliving interesting policy that help the quality of human life. I don't care where they come from. You know? So we want to throw that out completely. I have no problems with it. But nor redefining existing terms, according to what benefit somebody in terms of their own political fights because that just dishonest that something else entirely, well, and you know, it's worth bringing up what I think. Is a key ingredient in the whole thing that isn't talked about enough. And that's the fact that, you know, much of the comparison between the Nazis, and the communist involves Joseph Stalin, he's a bit of a y you know, in other words, instead of Bolshevism, we're getting a little deep into the woods here. But you have Stalinism there's a decent number of historians that think that Joseph Stalin wasn't really a communist that. He hid behind the communist sort of doctrine. But was and I'm quoting here an old style oriental despot in which case that makes him. Yes. More like a Hitler or Mussalini, but you can't call them communists. Then right. He's just an old style. Dictator right, right. With a facade of communism because communism for all. Its faults was not supposed to be a dictatorship. There was going to be a dictatorship of the proletariat stage. But decisions weren't supposed to be in the hands of one guy who like Hitler called every shot. Now, the fact that it actually works out that way. In Soviet Union in red China in in the Kamei Rouge in Cambodia is that that's a different that's an actual interesting point of its own. But that's not what it's supposed to be like. And so those who say the communism and Nazism, very similar it might be less because Hitler's like a communist and more because Stalin's like a Nazi right in that. I think that's where that's where the whole conversation gets interesting where the same posts are. And I think that the one you top he's of vetting thirsting wanting Solna, maybe another time we can explore it, you know, the Wyan ideology getting theory. But each these radical equality Thurs out to be monsters hierarchical despite saying, no, no, we are all equal. When obviously anybody can see through each was cut out. It was just something to hide behind that Debbie cons, in fact, one of the contradictions in that movement. That's interesting to explore. And I love Churchill's line about the the equalization of MS. Yeah. Right. Exactly. And and then it's even that like that clearly would not be good scenario. But even that's no real because it's now really Quasimodo the guy the last guy in the Soviet Union stallion are going to have a fatty defendant lifestyles, you know, they are not in the same both old. So yet fascinating. And I guess one thing I to I don't know if you want to add anything to these or behind defy switches likely the conversation, I, but it's worth pointing out one thing and you brought it up earlier. And that's this question of equality, whether or not it's possible, and whether or not that's actually what the Bolsheviks or the red Chinese or the Kamei Rouge were actually out to do that is a key plank in the the communists slash socialist worldview. Whereas the Nazis did not believe in equality. They specifically believed in the opposite. The Uber Mench concept, basically that there there are master people, and there are subject people. What's more, communism and socialism? Have this? You know, you remember the phrase right workers of the world unite every everybody who wasn't of the ruling class around the world was part of the potential convert pool. The Nazis race oriented to them being part of the convert pool had nothing to do with your ideology it had to do with your blood. And so I mean, this this the idea this is a problem Americans have with terminology, and that's why I use the the People's Republic the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea to start with you gotta get past the national Socialist Workers Party name in the Nazi party. I mean, the national socialist thing too many people by that face value. If you took that out of the equation, and you just looked at the beliefs. This is how you know. So many people are just parroting what they hear from. Let's call them influencers rather than doing their own research because it really doesn't stand up to historical scrutiny, and it's hard to find a lot of historians will back you up on the idea of the Nazis as a left wing. And as we said, if they're a left wing group what the heck are they hanging out with all these right wing countries. Exactly says. Yes, that's why really makes no science on every level. And I'm glad to chat with you about it to sort of out clarify 'cause I'm sure there are a lot of very nice weekly sinners of bolting to it because they have just overdid it enough times. So that's why I think laying down some actual facts laying down some actual evidence. In regard is very important because otherwise oh, God, sir. Why was just gonna say here's what teachers need to me at the direct this conversation. We started with the que- Bono idea that in the who benefits. Right. I interested in who's angry that we're pushing this point of view, right and wire they angry. So I mean to me it arguing about where the Nazis stood in the political spectrum is seventy five year old news having somebody get angry at you today. Because of where you say, the Nazis are in the political spectrums much more interesting to me that that's that gets deep into the. Psyche of not just American politics right now. But let's call it politics in the entire western world. And that reminds me this is actually funny because you go into it as well. I remember a few months ago. I tweet disea- match that I found the scathingly she'll in where was the edge off these guards thous- rates having a beak knee, Kandal, laughing all happy leeann. So you see these people, and they all seem like sweets nice young German people, then you'll remember they are two guards thousand so the team edge, displayed banality of evil now, you would feed that would be a relatively uncontroversial thing in the sense that we understand the our denoted people to horrible stuff we understand. Yes. The Nazis the horrible things clear enough right or about nineteen forty five. Non and suddenly there was a whole store of angry people about why aren't you showing the the communist guy if you showed these? Why aren't you? And he was just like, whoa. Whoa. Whoa. Where does this even come from? And do you know anyone clearly enough for of you know, we need to score a point for our team kind of thing. Even if you ask them, nobody would say, no, I'm defending the nineties, but that's kind of where he was was steel framed in a left wing, right-wing fashion and these weird because I mean, I get the feeling that your hiatus from common sense as it beat to do with the Molder political situation where if you say that the sun is out immediately are gonna have peoples from all sorts of sites yelling at unit. How dare you say to decide his out the sun is not how what are you talking about? And that they're Sacha degree of factionalism modern politics that you cannot see even the most. Although seeing the stuff that's like saying to end two week four you can barely say that we thought he'd beam perceived as either pedal molting, one Pampore or another. We out Matica means that fifty percent of. The other fifty percent of the people are going to hate your guts. Well, let me even take it one step farther in the contradiction. If the people that said that to you really believe the Nazis are a left wing movement, and they're coming at this from a right wing point of view, why on earth would they care? Right ready? You're just making their point for them. Right. The Nazis Rievaulx. That's right. Those left wing, Nazis arrival. But those are people who think the Nazis are on the left, but get mad when you're not giving equal time to the crimes of the Bolsheviks that doesn't make sense right there. So you say why did Dan give up his current events show temporarily? Maybe it's because if how do you even deal with such basic contradictions that the people who are making them don't see I I don't know how to have a conversation with people who don't recognize such a basic contradiction. And I think that's the them. The. It sounded to tweet Veneta public discourse. And I mean, social media doesn't thou because of course, she are not seating films of somebody where you can pick up body language and other seeing sewer are more likely to make you less aggressive. But still the point being we are dis. It's Vati artwork. Any kind of conversation when he mmediately people start yelling at each other. And are just looking for a reason to score point for their team. And he doesn't apply to politics almost seems to apply like any tho pick seems good enough to start a fight about. And I'm not sure if these result of value nation of people not seen each other face to face if he'd said, I'm not sure wanted he's at his out dolphin would be cutest. We at European, but I definitely see and I can see why doing a show lie. Commonsense may not seem like the head gifts. But also cutting the Lord for you when anything you're going to see you're going to get yelled at. Well, you know, it is interesting to me that that in these particular times that we live in to to be someone who tries to see both sides is seen by both sides as somehow validating or enabling evil on the other side. Right. If you weren't one hundred percent condemning the other side, you're part of the problem. Well, that's not the world. I inhabit right. We started that program as a way to find things that we had in common. So that we could solve common problems that both the right and the left would agree upon things like, you know, a need for government corruption reform stuff like that. You know, I will say though, let me push back a little on this idea about division or the anger or the lack of ability to have a civil conversation because at least in the United States. I think we have a long history of that. You know, I I don't I don't think there was some golden age where we could have these wonderful com discussions about politics. People always would get. I mean, there's a reason that they say there's a few things you shouldn't discuss at dinner religion, sex politics. So I mean, I think people have always gotten worked up over that. But if you go back, and you look at the kind of arguments, and once again, you know, the average folks in the middle of the country weren't writing long intelligencia sort of college type treaties on this. But it does seem to my naked eye that the conversations were held one on a higher plane. So that you really discussing issues as opposed to the the hyperbole name calling. We do. Now. I also think and you know, this is another topic too. I think we miss having a common sense common common a common framework of reference. Let's let's call it truth while understanding that there never was any truth. But to be able to cite sources in an argument used to be really valuable. Whether or not we really believed the sources nowadays. I mean, the media is in such disarray. The the the people who used to rely on to provide at least some window, even if it was a flawed window into reality are so disorganized disoriented. And and let's totally the reputations are in tatters that leaves nothing to a- conversation but name calling and whatnot. I mean, what facts would you argue with you have your facts than I have my facts, and they never come. You know, they never they never cross over, you know. Yeah. What was the Rudy Giuliani's line throat is not through? What is that? He said something along those lines that was like most false mold early statement of ever heard where he was just it's an origin defect that. Yes, there basically is no agreement on objective throught that that still investigative journalism because that's what you know as many amazing seeing says internet as but owed as also to that of. Investigative journalism 'cause nobody has the money to spend to make it up and in an environment where people are reading stuff line, and they're no by newspapers anymore and all of that dairies. No Komala agreed set of facts it solo. It's all that's why people can I mean people have always made up again that. But there was a little bit of a checking going on. Now. I think anything you quote, outta Matica. People are going to say that's not a good source. Screw it. I'm not good on these tweets digest. Nope. No. I have my fingers Myers. That's just a bad sores, or at least you could quote somebody who you read. Right. You may say I don't agree with what you're saying. Because I was just reading this book by so. And so and he said, I mean, the discussions don't happen at that level. It's it's funny. Because when I was in talk radio they used to say that you can't ever delve any lower beneath the surface and the very surface issues because you have to assume your audience is turning over all the time. People are getting in and out of their cars and whatnot. So you always have to keep the conversation at the introductory level. Because new people are joining it all the time. I almost feel like that's become the way the national conversation, and the international conversation has gone now, we're nothing gets below the surface level because once you get below the surface level, either people are incapable of having a conversation at that level, or I mean, you know, if I come up with facts against somebody, and they say, well, you're just a fill in the blank. I mean already the conversation is over. So there isn't a conversation. And in a in a functioning there used to be a line that in a in a democracy or a Republic and informed. Citizenry is what's required. Could you? Call our citizenry informed. And if you said, no is it their fault. I don't know right now. I think it's that's why it's a really messes it wish in which is why I see the Mendoza peel and understand US. But around the word of really. The kind of like the strongman authoritarian tie who's going to tell you. I will take care of all because people are confused people. Are scared Adair so much so much thirty formation show match quick change at Benin day, incredibly fast base that people feel like the ground under need them is not as solid as it used to be. And so the deal of the strong man was going to fix it all seem to be valuable much. I wouldn't say all over toward by many many many different parts. I'll tell you what reading mine confidant for the first time probably in two years three years. I read it for a show a while back, but I'm reading it. And and it's funny because obviously the situations between post first World War Germany, and where we are. Now, totally different. We're not in a defeat period. We haven't had just, you know, the the great depression, all these other things, but when you're reading what Hitler is saying, you're going wow ally. This would apply to now in terms of you know, he's. Slamming the parliamentarians, and he's talking about how they come out to talk to the voters right around election time, promise them, every I mean, it's the same sort of anger that would play very well in the current society. And I have to say listen, I don't have a Nazih stick bone or really a Bolshevik bone in my body. But I get it. I get the frustration. When you see government, slowly? But surely not functioning at all and certainly not functioning for the common people. But what's funny is how often I don't know if you wanna call it cyclical or whatever. But how how you know the very things that Hitler saying in mind comp specifically to appeal. It's remember that that book was not to be this great historical documents that we could read it. Now, it was meant for a political treaties for himself in that era. How well that would play today. You know, I think people would be scared. If I said, go read mine comes to find out where Hitler's political spectrum because I think they would think don't tell people to do that. They might like it absolutely is ink is I mean has been done time and time again the whole quoting from mine com. Not saying that it's learning throngs of cheering crowds. Go this great. And then you tell them by the way that was Hitler. And people flip out, you know, it's like there's a reason for these people as much as not very popular to say people like that stuff. Let me give you the converse one that upset me so much. I remember I was on the radio in the nineteen nineties. I was always talking about freedom and liberty and the this America that was disappearing and right around the time, I was doing this. I remember it was coming home from work, and I'm listening to the radio, and there was a story, and it was some Democrats who had re going for memory here, but they had sort of rewritten the Bill of rights in modern day English. So that it didn't look like the original and then sub mid it. I forgot what this I wanna say it was the house of representatives and a bunch of Republicans came forward and said that it was awful that it would destroy in other words, just really we can't how this. And then of course, they sprung the trap on him and said, oh, it's the Bill of rights, and you would've voted against it. I think there's a little of that too. Where you turn around. There's a lot of. And this is another reason that I think my current events show has a problem right now is that it's hard for me to relate to a current generation of Americans that very well might look at the Bill of rights and say way, I don't agree with one four seven. And you know, I mean, I feel like a dinosaur politically, and so having discussions with people along the lines that we used to consider to be normal. You know, twenty thirty years ago, elicits responses that surprise me and not just from, you know, young liberal Americans. But from young conservative Americans to it is one thing though, that them getting a lot when I bring up which people is that I always got the feedback off. Don't listen to those people just go ahead. And and these applies burly to you more than two to me. But like many people Meese your boy. Interview. Many people miss the presence of voice. That's not all tra- does improve Alterra factionalism all the time avoid that's actually trying to make sense out of the coronary oh, not through not particular ideological lenses. You know, any Tobagan because inevitably few do that you will get the Heathrow multiple sides. But at the same time, they're probably the need for it precisely because the times are ugly in that sense on the other end is a secret secret Danielle Bolelli attempt to try to find the chink in my armor to get me to go do that again. I know what you're up to. I mean, you know it. Well, and we agree. But also, let's let's look at what I'm doing these Vati for me to tell you to the with right is like, Dan, this is a really important thing that somebody should do it, wink, wink, why don't chew the way is like, well, yes, that's great. Except the debt means you have to deal with old the annoying aspects. That would not entail. So as much as I'm pushing you in dead direction, also knowledge that I'm not the best friend this because I'm telling you to do something that I'm not doing. So, you know, now speaking of that, let me shift this a little no, no, don't shoot this. Because we we spoken of of the specific American meal you here, which is where I live, right? And I don't mean live like like geographically, I mean, I am. I am. I am a product of this. Right. A very American point of view in a very American attitude, and I realize my my my blind spots in my blinders. And when I talk about, you know, the the national socialism and people talking about us all of these are such American phenomena, but the United States is of course, but one part of the planet. Let me ask you you go home to the old country a lot to how does how does how do these trends that we're talking about here in the states? How much is this internationalized and tell me what do you think we'll talk about European youth in general? But let's talk about maybe a Mediterranean youth or talian youth. Specifically, if you have any connection to them at all how much of this is is apparent how much the situations match and in what ways do you see differences? I mean, other than them discussion about Nunzio fascism left wing, right right-wing kind of thing. I mean in the sense that we have established it's based on noise. Doric alliance whatsoever. That stuff probably because people have lived through. It is now really up for discussion innately, but every single applies in evidencing sees the same. The y'all extreme brutal. Angry functionalism the same lack of solution from one side that then push people into voting the other side all to find out that the other side is equally clueless. So then you swim back. I think these are. I don't wanna say universal ends. Because while the why no about evident come through the word. But a if we stick in the discussions with lease St. deli. I do see the same dynamics. Play. Okay. Can we call this? A you know, the for every action there's an equal and opposite reaction. Could we suggest that this is a natural attitude? You know, populism being the response to a government that is death or that or that is in working for someone else. I mean, another one of the reports came out again, you know, backing up what everybody already knows which is the people that influence policy, at least in the United States are people with tons of money, and the people that have almost no say over policy are the great mass of people how much I would say that in my mind populism. Whether you want to populism of the left or the right, or wherever is a natural reaction perhaps to a government that is death or unresponsive or seemingly working for someone else. And I think you could say in the global sense. I mean, look at the reaction to the EU in Europe. And some of the critiques against it sound an awful lot like critiques against Washington DC by Americans here. And I think that's the problem that, you know, are the human mind Vati by Ari in a we are used to Goudin devote black and white if these or Norio Leising that often the solution is a mix of different impulses is not a one extreme or not which doesn't mean anything the center either. Because the center is also stock positioned this dynamic is constantly changing. And you have to find the right balance in the rights way. Now, that's not the way our minds work. Most people feel if factual a is doing something that clearly is not working if the government is no working full low in these philosophy than factual be will be solution. If the powers that being Washington are screwed up than some police to show up will be solution or vice versa. And what I see is just a beam phone game between. Clean stupid ideas, where you know, he's like depots ITO face posed to be but be yet a tow could different game. But in terms of result is they're equally poor. And Ray, they're realizing, okay? Phase doesn't leave a result. If be dozen deliver results, maybe dry something else. I just see the pingpong gain going back and forth forever. And I'm just like really game where stock on disease d really not think that there may be more out there than just too. Supposedly different alternatives accepted. They deliver Cemil bad results. That's the part that I find stating that I find these is not even about mold their new us or modern Nita Leo or even the left right political spectrum. I find that like a virus of the one mind that we think in this binary opposites the value early actually match reality. Let me propose another idea. There's a a wonderful punk rock singer, John Lydon, he's to be called, Johnny rotten. He wrote a wonderful book, and the title is wonderful called anger is an energy. And I would I would propose that. I'm speaking for the United States here, specifically, I would I would suggest that most Americans in normal times don't care that much about politics. But when it's apparent that life is getting difficult and that and that the situation appears to be extremely unfair that the. Anger rises. And all of a sudden people who are not normally interested in politics are interested because it affects them. So for example, I've said forever that if if the United States can't figure out a way to do better for poor people and lower middle-class people that those people will make the rest of us feel their pain. Eventually, right. They will only put up with it for period of time. And there's a tipping point if they're get to be too, many of those people no matter how much you want to justify an I'm just parroting align here, right? The United States this great capitalist system where you know, if you've got what it takes you make it. And if you don't you won't that sounds great on paper. But if enough people fall into the we don't make it category. They're going to decide that that systems unsustainable. And they're going to change it whether or not on paper, this is the right philosophical system that to me is is where you get populism. Where people are just saying the system as constructed is not working. There are people who are doing very well. And then they convert doing very well into a influencing the governor. With their cash, which even doubles down on the situation. It makes it worse. Eventually, you get populist anger on all sides, if those people could ever unite you'd have a real interesting. I mean that that is a little bit where you wonder if this isn't the shiny object being used by our typical politicians to keep us from uniting against them. Right fight against each other. And don't notice what's going on behind the curtain. But I think what you may see now globally is if you get enough people that can't feed their kids or can't afford any healthcare, and they're sick. And there's enough of them. They're not gonna put up with it. I mean history shows they're not going to put up with it forever. So I don't know why we should be surprised when they don't. And as everybody knows you have two choices when they flip out either, you get into some radical changes, or you crack down on them, which leads to a more repressive state, which nobody in this country wants absolutely I think, that's I think you really hit the nail on the head on that one. Because as. Mantras? I'm not that big believe in conspiracy theories. And I tend to think that those usually are based on very lazy thinking, but you can tell to think that when there are real major issues at clay that are ever discuss where the spotlight is hardly ever shown there where real business he's been closed ours. In the meantime, they have you fighting about transgender bathrooms or something that I don't mean to realize by really in terms of the greats chemo seeings, not quite as big o finish w-was. Let's say where we are going today in terms of the sustainability of our relationship with the planet. All sources Phanor g off, you know, ten thousand other seeings that are at the key of whether a human race has future or not. I can't out by think that there may be an element of the structure, and I play there that is like, yeah. Get them to fight along ideological lines about completely irrelevant topics to the Theriault business not relevant when any single individual life. Of course, it's relevant to some individual life. But I'm talking relevant in terms of what the real business is about what the big decisions got to be made of. And that way, we still got to do business as usual behind closed doors, while the deals are fighting each other over something something else. Oh, we are very manipulate -able. And this isn't a conspiracy theory. This is this is how politics works. I mean, you can't call that conspiracies when when the political systems understood how to do this forever. I mean, a perfect example is used to interview politicians all the time on the radio and some of them became good friends of mine, and they were very upfront about how things work. I mean, for example, they would talk about the problem of fund raising when you would get between election. So when you will get to this dead zone that was. Quite a distance between maybe call it an equal distance between two elections, and it was hard to raise funds. They would go and agreed to the Republicans in the Democrats to bring up a Bill affecting one of those issues that just gets money pouring into the coffers on both sides abortion or guns or whatever as as this. This was a bipartisan effort to fan and whip up the base. So that they started, you know, so you had something to go back and ask for contributions for that's not a conspiracy. That's politics. So I mean, if people get upset with that, I understand the populist anger because you know, as problems that we all see around us get worse, you become more and more frustrated with the lack of attention to them. Now. This kind of leads into another subject you wanted to talk about you wanted to talk about if not these political leaders who and I'll let you set that up. Yeah. Let's was playing with the then Carleen time machine. And so and so if you at peak when bast US? But I said, which of course, as could easy because one, but I wouldn't have the knowledge of the modern war that we have. But in a more, you know, let's say you give them a few years to catch up to what's going on today, personality wise, if there was one past US, but I then they would mind seen in the White House today east that anybody if there's anybody would be. While you sorta screwed up my answer to because you issued the disclaimer that I was gonna throw it initially, which is I don't think you could bring back any nineteenth century presidents and bring them up to speed with the America of today. So that they could operate. That's because because I know you too well, and I close the nut question. I was like I gotta go. So let me just let it limits. The choices. That's all I would. You know, it's funny because this is a question that gets to one's own political beliefs because obviously I'm going to pick the president. That solves the things that I believe are problems, which may not be what other people believe our problems. I thought about this a little bit to me. I think I gotta bring back somebody who's going to figure out how to give the United States soft landing from where we are now. And they were going to be people that don't believe we need a soft landing or any kind of landing. But what I mean by that is if you look, and this again, my personal opinion if you look at where the United States is now, let's call it. What it is. It's an empire. And it's not just an empire. I always blow people's minds when I point this out. It's the most powerful empire in global history. Okay. And it's not even close. So when you say that, you know, Americans are so are so conditioned to believe that they're not an empire that that's simply strikes them. Incorrect. It feels it feels like you're making a political statement by even saying right because we're not like Nazi Germany. We're not like the Mongols. No, we're a commercial empire think Athens, right or or something like that rethink Carthage. That's what we're like. And we, and we we eggs art, very light touch with with client states and friendly states in the lion systems. We have a navy that controls the seas protects the trade routes all these kind of things, but that to me is unsustainable. Right. Whatever it is six eight hundred basis, whatever it is around the world. I mean if that's not an empire. I don't know. What is? So I always say that people will how do you think that's going to turn out long-term, right? In other words, project one hundred years from now, where's the American empire project you hundred years from now if it's not there two hundred years from now what happened to it? Right. My attitude is that this is unsustainable. But I think the people in the United States government and the halls of power and many Americans assume that the conditions we have. Now, US global dominance or the where we'd like to use his global leadership that this is ever present and unending that this is the status quo for the rest of history moving forward, which is ridiculous. And as we all understand from what was it foreign policy one. Oh, one the balance of power principles. It naturally when you have one overriding power in naturally creates an interest for other global powers to coalesce to counterbalance it which leads to either terrible wars eventually or eventually some country bankrupting itself trying to keep the status quo. So when you ask me which president I would bring back I would bring back somebody who both recognized that and would be in a position to do something about it. And it would take very special kind of person. So I always go to Eisenhower. Disclaimer general slash president. Eisenhower did a lot of things that I think were awful and the got the country into worse situations, for example, he was a fervent user of like the CIA to undermine. Countries and all these kind of things, but but I would suggest that that is part of the air. He lived in certain challenges from that nineteen fifties, you know, war against communism that that I would give him a little bit of a pass on what I would say about Eisenhower, though. And why I would choose him over those nineteenth century guises. He's a guy who straddled the divide. He was born in one America, and he was president of another America. And he remembered what the old America was like, right? What you know what I always get angry at with? When Americans will talk to me about my political beliefs on the empire thing, they will always say to me. Well, you're in isolation est. And another isolates I wanted the American foreign policy that existed from the beginning of the country to about the second World War. I don't if that's salacious, you know, I I'm sure the Mexicans and the native Americans and the Canadians and a bunch of other people would go. Well, it doesn't seem very isolated to me. But my point is that Eisenhower was born it a Norman Rockwell. L upbringing and understood that that's the America that if we could get back to that we should. And when you look at his comments, he understood totally that it was an unsustainable and temporary situation that we were in in the post second World War world, and he was looking for ways out, right? When can we get out of Europe and let the Europeans resume their normal operations and they control their area, they defend their area. He was looking for landing zones. Right. How do we get out of these commitments in a way that safe, right? He didn't wanna leave anybody in the lurch. He realized that you had to be careful, but that's why he gave that military industrial complex speech at the end of his presidency. Because he realized that this is not sustainable, nor is it healthy long-term, but it is profitable for some people. So you have to be careful because eventually that profitability for some people become addictive, and it's funny that so many of the people that decry US social programs don't realize that the number. One transfer of wealth that I can think of especially if you're talking about the discretionary part of the US budget is from the American taxpayer to a bunch of companies that make military hardware. I mean that that is military Keynesianism right there. So so when you ask what president I will get you need a president that can one see the unsustainability. I think Eisenhower pointed that out when it was a lot less bad than it is now, by the way, I also think he understood what America really was because he grew up in it. So so in his mind's eye he would like to as much as you, can, you know, given the realities of the twentieth century get back to that. And he remembers what the road back looked like Finally, I think the fact that the guy was a general makes a huge difference because in our country. It is so easy to tar and feather a civilian when they start talking about changing, you know, the global military balance of power and all this. Whereas Eisenhower knew all those generals air force guys and admirals by name. Personally, he played bridge with them. Right. He did not fear them. He could go right up to the say, Bob. This is ridiculous. The country can't afford it or whatever. And no American person's gonna think he's soft on defense. So when you talk about what Dan Carlin thinks the country should have to get back on an even keel. This is my own personal bias, you're going to take in my mind guy. Like Eisenhower is going to be required to do it. Now, did he do a lot of things? I don't like he absolutely did. But I don't have any presidents who are perfect. Making their nineteenth century guys. I would like sure, but they're not going to be able to. I mean, if you put them in the White House, even if you tried to bring them up to speed the country that they're going to be dealing with doesn't even resemble the one that they came from. So to me, it's got to be somebody who at least existed in a time where the country had some semblance of what it's like now in order to adequately. You know contend with the problem. So I'm picking Eisenhower. Do you have a person you would pick? Well, I mean as you said that are no perfect guys. And in some cases, re looking at Vati defended him perfection because some of their downsides are very heavy. But one guy like I can't tell boating personality, but only because his little mentally deranged, which seems to be one of the three stick site. I race donate. Well, wait, but I did this three per series until the Roosevelt and as much okay? Let's start two negatives. But it was never swear war. He didn't like. See was ridiculously impulsive vanity hawkish in terms of foreign policy all staff that I'm not particularly fond of. So what is that? I like about the injustice clarify again the'll the Roosevelt very defer from frankly, the lower was vote. So just as a reminder, but the other revolt one of the that idea is to concerts one. He's environmental policies, I do wholesome. You know, he's the one guy that I've ever seen push the best environmental policies in terms of price. Ident and heat that to me something that's food. Be a bipartisan me Shufu be something that everybody goes behind because he doesn't matter where you feed ideologically. If you have boys winning your wallet there or India area beneath so somebody made that I already Bart unto me. And also I'd really like sweetness to challenge the corruption in both parties, you know, he's too. These days. He's the best third by Jeff for every mother nines. He he was vanity open about going hard against people inspired the as well as people in other barcus, there's a quote of fees that I really loved that. Anger. Antonino quotes are easy to stuff is easy to say everybody, Sean can leave England speech, and then no Fulop butting. There's of the way he did follow up on some of these issues, something I Mike, but there's these cool, Tori goes political buyer this exceeds to secure responsible government and execute the wheel of the people from these great dusk, both of the old buyer of toward aside instead of he's through instable Degen that I'll welfare they have become tour of corrupting dress which used them in barshop early to Salvador sunfish Barbas behind a stencil government seats in thrown any visible government. We know allegiance and the knowledge noticeable. Obt two people to destroy these invisible. Government to the soul of the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first I ask of the statement. She of the day. I don't these that coal mine there, you noise like ABC's these that on and I found that he sucked chal in terms of knocking down on corruption the way our Bhartiya Larry needed. So when you put those two together, you know, he's environmental policy said these aptitude in terms of a factionalism slush corruption those are characteristics. That I think are extremely embarked on Tuesday. You know, I always was fascinated with the, you know, if you talk about like life lessons, it would it would have been interesting had Roosevelt gone through in my opinion. I mean, one of the things I find interesting about the guys he's a very for those who don't remember. Or know Roosevelt was an I called him in a Drennan junkie. I always think about teddy Roosevelt in terms of how what kind of president he would have been more at the end of his life than when he actually was. Because when he was president in some ways, he reminded me of my grandfather who I always thought was like Batman and teddy Roosevelt always wanted to be like Batman. And when I was a kid I love teddy Roosevelt because he was like a big kid who played with toy soldiers and thought all that would. I mean. Yeah. I mean that to me that that's that's I like that as a present. But as I got older, I thought, okay? This is a dangerous guy who thinks war is wonderful in her roic and grand. But but here's the thing. You know, he goes through it. And by the way, his experience as we all know when he was fighting in the Spanish, American war. In his mind was glorious a grant. And he had a great time. And it was wonderful. You know war was a game then, but then you get to the first World War, which he actively wanted to get into. And he loses kids, right? His kids die in the war. And it changed him. You know, and that is the Roosevelt that happens after that happens might have been in my mind, a more well rounded figure than the guy who was actually in the White House. So so in that sense, I think in a weird way. And it sounds like like disrespectful to say. So, but I mean, I feel like the guy grew up in a way that would have made him like you said, I mean, a president who fights corruption and he was known as the trust BUSTER. I mean, he would have gone in and taken on some of the big corporations today, which would always argue, by the way this as an aside. But what I was arguing Americans who wanna tiny tiny tiny little government is that who's gonna protect us against the giant giant giant corpora? Nations. Right. There's there's a balance there and teddy Roosevelt understood that the government needs to be like a fire, which is what had a early American writer once said, a president wants the government is like fire that you know, if you don't have it your freeze to death. But if it gets out of control at burns, everything around it. But what that means it is it needs to be tended at just the right level. Just the right level is one that could protect the people from something like a giant international corporation that runs rush shot over our rights and freedoms. But not so large that it runs roughshod over our rights and freedoms. So yeah, I it's interesting that both you, and I picked Republican presidents, isn't it until it's well, I mean, even if you need show off. That's why you'll demo Bobby come to me like spatially when you go fire backing dime. You know, that's why eventually Roosevelt didn't fit in with anybody. You know, he didn't fifteen that. I become pirated fifteen we Democratic Party. He was tesol thing because he said them old. You know, he did seeing the. If I were to be don't lie on Unani direction. I some way ideologically he would be considered very right wing and some ways ideologically would be considered very left wing. That's another thing that idea about him, the fed that he didn't seem to be as leave to an ideology old ways going wheat the flavor of Sparty, but very much making peace mind as he went not feeling the need to constantly fee. Teen, we to what's Kunsi the acceptable by his voters, which I think was kind of what made him fun. You didn't know what he was going to argue before you jumping why maybe we can put a wonderful bow tie on the whole conversation here because you had mentioned that the, you know to talk about Democrats and Republicans before the modern era is to talk about parties that were so different that the comparisons don't even work anymore. I'm a perfect example of that is when I was looking for Roosevelt, Franklin Delano Roosevelt speeches for the latest hardcore history show. I was listening to some of the campaign speeches of. Of that era. So we'll talking about the nineteen forty presidential campaign. So Roosevelt's opponent was a guy named Wendell willkie who is a businessman, the Republican, and he's giving speeches, and if you went looked, and you can find them online to his speech or his conversation to the camera. I don't think it was official speech is more like a a what would you call it? A film campaign commercial, maybe by that standards of that era. You can see how much the United States has moved to the right totally. Because if I if I played Wilkie speech today, and I didn't identify what it was. There is not a person who would hear it who would think that it was anything, but a leftist speech, but remember that this is the guy to the right of the guy who's gonna crush him in the election. Right. So so to me that we talked about gold water being the real person who changed the American conservative movement from where it was to where it is. Which was a hard move to the right? And then what Reagan did who supposedly, you know gold? Water laid the foundation for Reagan who fifty fourteen years later, you know, comes to fruition. Reagan move the Democratic Party to the right both parties are to the right of where they were in nineteen forty which if you said to somebody who wants to make America great where we great in nineteen forty. They would probably say we'll greater than we are today. Go look at the campaign speeches from both the democratic and Republican presidential hopefuls in nineteen forty as if you could agree with either one of those if you're on the conservative side of things now, that's what the funny thing about lewke not story. Not just the stock in the president. That yet you do see these changes, and you can tell about spying at it because. Yes, that would be a shock to a lot of people. Well. Well, listen, as you know, I'm not saying that this is right or wrong. I'm simply this is not fake news. I mean, people can go check this out for themselves. You may say thank goodness the United States and the world has moved to the right, politically or you may say it's a tragedy. But it's fascinating that we have and the things I mean, the Republican presidential hopeful in nineteen forty is talking about expanding social programs that today people on the right side of the ledger. Wanna get rid of totally? So again, you know, when we talk about going back to another America. I don't think people understand what the other America was. And this is why I have such a hard time doing my current events show now because that was always what I was suggesting that we need to get back to some of the foundational ideas that when I was a kid. Nobody would've argued with you might have argued over. If I said, we need to get more liberty because we've been reducing our personal freedom. And all that a lot of people say, yeah. But then when you get down. The specifics might argue with oh, I don't mean that or I don't mean this. But today when I say things like that I get pushed back from young people on both sides of the political spectrum. In other words, I as an old fashioned American 'em so out of touch with today's political world because they're not like that. So so I have a hard time in the old days. You used to be able to base argument on certain fundamental truths that everyone agreed with and now no one agrees with those truth. So even something like liberty. That's a bad word in some circles now, and when you use it in the circles that use it, and like it, they don't mean it the way I mean it so I think that's one of the things that I've always know. He's like when you with some people who are pushing. It's all about freedom freedom for them. Like, I got it. I like him as a cool thing. So I'm assuming you are in favor of funding the world rugs legalizing prostitution on legalising euthanasia, and they're like earning. That's not what I meant. Like. Okay. Then probably we should have a dictionary dog. I. About what you mean when you say seems like don't because to me that's individual rights. You know, you have the right to put whatever you want in your body as long as you are not affecting somebody else if people want to sell sex as long as nobody's being forced the of the right to do. So and they have the right to die as they wish, you know. And I'm not even saying that's a good or a bad thing. I'm just saying if you are going to scream freedom probably that would be a consistent way to go about it. But often as you say what people mean by surfing wards is not really is not really the same. Meaning that everybody. See? And that's why I think serpine words are boys them like we should the last week was them the bet there because they are. So hopelessly vague that everybody projected own meanings on it. You know, when's the last time you were a candidate anywhere saying that the against freedom that yet we hate freedom, and we need to squash Fredo more. When is that? We are. Therms even like left wing right wing as we started. We are so vague theater. D'armes like socialism, communism Darrell seeing that are like. You can have a discussion going on for our sweet sombody never realizing that you are not talking about the same thing in the first place because he has signed defendant meaning studios concepts. And I think these fide on social media where you don't have the time to go away. Stop a cycle. What did you mean by that? And sue these discussion goal forever. Where really there's not even an agreement about what it is the art oaken about except that you're using the same ward. Oh, it's like what we had set when I said that there was that translation of the Bill of rights into common language and people were against it. There was a famous, quote, I forgot who said, but it was it was years ago. So it shows you how how little in some ways things have changed where I think it was a political figure may not have been who said the Bill of rights would not even get out of committee. If you try to pass it today. People today adhere to a bunch of marketing slogans like when you say the national anthem or the pledge of allegiance or any of these things in all these wonderful words, come out. And we cherish them. And we almost treat them with a sort of a religious devotion. But never delve into what they mean, nor talk about you know, what what what you say something liberty. What is the practical meaning of that? Right. And this is where you get into the devil's in the details question, but if I was in charge of the school curriculum. These are the kind of things we would be asking. Right. What do we mean? Are we talking about just political rights, which is in one time period that they were talking about because in seventeen eighty seven you had a lot of states that felt just fine cracking down on people's morals. And didn't think about that as an infringement on their liberty at all? But you go to the nineteen sixties. And there was a whole new generation of Americans that were saying, wait a minute. We believe in liberty to but liberty means my right to do what I want as long as it doesn't hurt someone else. What was Justice Oliver Wendell home said the right to swing? My fist ends where the other man's nose begins. What I've said is we live in an era where everybody's noses are growing. Familly longer. Right. And so so I if you if you change what constitutes harm that's the equivalent of being Pinocchio, and it becomes a time period. Where now nobody can swing their fist without contacting someone's ever elongated nose, which means that our libraries all being is all being constrained. Because now we hurt people with comments on Twitter, right? As the hose to the real infringement on liberty is telling somebody, no you can't walk on this side of town. That's an infringement on liberty that everybody fifty years ago would have understood didn't mean that they were gonna let black folks crossover the tracks and go to their side of town. But they would have understood it in this day and age we're so easily hurt. And if that becomes the Oliver Wendell Holmes point at which we can restrict people's behavior and liberty. We aren't going to be able to do anything. Yeah. And that's a funny thing that everybody in these across the political spectrum a. Everybody seemed to love played victim the people who scream about our everybody else's playing. The victim often are doing you team. Can you believe what they are doing to us kind of way? There's this culture of victimhood. That's people. It's almost like you're squatting appoint if you are the beaten underdog and people seem to three thrive on like, it seemed to be a popular concept today. Let me ask a question because I don't know the answer. But I wonder about it a lot I curious on your view short. I can't decide if Americans today, and I'm gonna say Americans today, I'm talking about the grant hole. But I think when we're talking about technology being the way we figure this out. We're probably skewing young on that. Right. Are Americans today just more jerks than they used to be or are we more able to express ourselves? And so we see that Americans, and I'm saying Americans, but this is a global phenomena is this a culture where we're just trolls to each other all the time or is this because of our ability to express ourselves has become democratized with social media, everything that we're just seeing how Americans and other people around the world would have been fifty years ago. They had the tools I mean had Nazi Germany been on Twitter with with with a chamberlain's Britain and France of the time period and a period Japan. I mean, can we imagine the nineteen forties world with our social media? Now, would we have been any nicer to each other? Or is this in other words, I guess I'm asking is this the human phenomenon or are we seeing a change in people's attitudes? That is a result of the interplay between social media and. Our political situation. I think my feel Onate is that it's eighty percent human nature and twenty percents some social conditions that have trained partially because of knowledge, but also just loneliness w nation in very different. If you're having discussions, if there's a community that you're fired off if you have discussions face to face if you are used to mediate in that regard, or if you are in your lowly for walls one roof, and you don't need to have the kind of. You don't get old that Maso that allow you to mediate with other people on a regular basis because you don't have to. And so your communication is going to be navato much more rob than the harsh. I think both fact on out than to say, you nature, human nature doesn't change radically. But I do think that online communication end end heavy loneliness that most people feel by nor really being part of something larger than often what's going on within your own four walls debt could beauts to not developing net ability to have more Noah's or Madel conversations with other you mom beings. Let me tie in something that may or may not be relevant. But it's interesting because as you say that I'm thinking about something I was discussing with somebody just the other day, and it has to do with several articles. I've been reading about young people not dating as much as they used to not have. In other words, not going out to clubs to meet each other the way we used to when I was a kid in other words, if you think of young people as having a constant sort of a temperament throughout most of history, right? We're going to go out. We're gonna meet some girls. We're gonna go out all these things that we used to consider to be just normal human things when we were kids fast forward to now where we've introduced a variable the technology something that had never been a part of the debate before. And now we're seeing generation of people and again broad generalizations here. But I mean, I've got two kids who are teenagers myself. They don't date as much as we did they they don't have face to face conversations. They don't know how to walk up to somebody that makes them nervous and asked them out. I mean, maybe this is something that's a variable that changes in a question that used to be pretty consistent throughout most of human history because we were dealing with human beings, and they can be pretty consistent across variable spectrum. But, but but you add this social media thing. And social media, but it's the whole thing. Right. Social media encompassing, everything including texting I mean, everything and you have an entire of maybe generation, and it's going to be interesting when they're the parents raising the next generation of people who interact with each other in very different ways. And so maybe in the same way that I would have thought it would be much easier to ask a girl out on a date just by texting her than having to walk up in front of her and deal with the the embarrassment of being shot down in person. If that happens, maybe it's easier to call somebody a jerk or maybe it's easier to say, you know, to pick a fight or call people names when you don't have to do it face to face. Maybe that's a function of the technology. Absolutely. I think that is meanwhile, changing the ruler so human communication in teen. Couple of decades. And we have no blueprint for out to do it in a scion of like somebody who got the wheel of a car. And never known anybody. Drove a car never thrown a car. They they don't have an user man while and his like glad let's see what happens kind of thing. We are playing Denver's game as a health in some ways beautiful game because so many amazing scenes of app into less twenty years because technology innovation so my no means the back in my days before disease technologies crew does allow up. That's not what I'm saying. I told but there are clearly Samis shoes that we haven't really figured out how to deal with that are as much as they are contributing to create more opportunities than some amazing stuff. They're also contribute into some serious problems that we have no solution to I think that leads into the last thing we were thinking about discussing today, the the trends and forces and the ability of an individual to make a difference in an era where it seems like there's so much. How would you describe it Daniel? I mean, we always used to just call it trends and forces versus individual initiative, but I mean in the social media thing, I mean, I was just I was reading a review of a book by Sheshona Zubov. It's called surveillance capitalism. And it's just another one in a long line of books that's explaining how we're being diced. And and and categorized and files are essentially being kept on all of us based on browsing histories and all these kinds of things and how dangerous this is. If you think about, you know, what's going to happen down the road with all of this, and yet how passive so many of the younger generation are about this and passive not so much because maybe they don't see that it might be bad, but passive because they feel powerless it. What are you gonna do? Right. You're not going to participate in the modern world. Just because everybody is is putting together a predictive technologies that will begin to be able to to know where you're going to be next week ahead of time. Time. Maybe let's let's introduce this topic. Because it was the last thing we wanted to discuss today. But the question of of how much individual initiative compl- a role versus the trends and forces that are we're all operating in. And I think that is the problems and we'd slow moving catastrophes. You know, you see where it's going. You can tell way ahead the direction is not a healthy one. And yet there's nothing you can do to steer it, or at least you don't feel like think like seeing like, you know, your CIA's that you did on the fall of the Roman Republic. For example. It's very clear that the rance you on allies don't happen overnight. They don't that any one year or in tannery fief. Do you can see them from like two hundred years before sprawls is beginning and many people are seeing along the way they scream and shout saying we need to do something about it. And clearly nobody's able to course. Correct for real. And void where to hold scenario is going. Sometime, you know, vide- something to be saved about you. Don't wanna see of throw up your Eiriksson say world, powerless, forgot lead just fun weekend because it's all going in a bed direction anyway. But at the same time sometime you won their matches in individual, you have an impact on the major historical forces. I think he's through with examples of bolt we have examples of individuals who have managed make humongous the fence. But we have even more examples of times where you see where seeing are going. We doubt the ability to do something about it. I mean, I mentioned earlier something like invite a mental issues. The fact that we leave on society debts, essentially, polluting, very food. We ordered the air we breathe. In. We we all know it. We all understand. That's problem. Nobody likes it. And yet we're not able to make a switch or you know, if we are able to taking vanities most that when something is moving faster and more action is needed death down to a lot about the Senate. And you know, you can look at basically every major realization that has collapsed usually the warning signs where long before they collapse. Didn't that any one day and yet despite the fed that were probably varies Myrick people leaving in those places dedom- dialed being able to fix it. So I'm not sure whether you have basically me stick to me stick view of seeing in these because I can't think of examples where occasionally individuals have made a big defense, but your so get your I kind of see does the same discussion as you'd wing common science where you feel like easy really worked. I might make. Efficiencies these candies. Redeem boxing's or not. I look at you know, for me, I think some of this problem. I have a hard time with it because I've just spent some of this conversation talking about how much I believe in liberty and freedom, and and people in all these kinds of things, and yet there are certain kinds of problems that don't lend itself, it seems to me again, I could be wrong about this. I think we're watching it unfold, and I'm trying to to learn as we see it also. But I mean, there are certain kinds of issues that it seems like a P instead of democracy 'cause some of them are Republic. Some of them are parliamentarians. I mean, people get hung up over words, but we'll call it a voter driven system. Maybe there are some problems that seem to be difficult for a voter driven system to deal with and usually they are long term problems. There's only one aspect of the of the totalitarian systems that I've ever been jealous of and that is their ability to plan long-term. So the the the communist used to have in the Soviet Union five year plans and tenure. Plans. I'm jealous of those. Because to me something like that would be unsustainable because we'd elected different president. If we didn't like the plan, and we change course. But, but so many of these problems require trade-offs between the now in the later and people I mean, for example, if you said to me, listen, Dan, we're going to have to make changes because of the environmental situation that will hurt you and your family now, but will benefit countless generations into the future that is a hard pill for people to swallow who are trying to keep their heads above water now. Right. Think about I always think about superman if you go back, and you read the superman origin story, it seems terribly prophetic for now. Right. Crypt on going to explode. Superman's dad goes and tells the people on the council, listen we have to plan for this. It's going to happen and they laugh at him. And of course, we know what happens, right? There's something to that. Now where I mean look at what happened in France where the government there tries to implement climate change protocols, disagree with them. Agree with the specific plans. They chose doesn't matter. But the people then rebel because they're the ones who are going to have to pay the tax for that. Now people who aren't making enough money to make ends meet now, and so they rebelled against that. You kind of go got I don't wanna live in in a system where the only way we're going to make the world survive is to overthrow the will of the voters because the will of the voters can't possibly sacrifice now for generations yet on born. And yet that seems to me to be, you know, a chink in armor in a democracy or a parliamentary system or a Republic any thoughts on the I think that plays into the trends and forces thing because I think I think if the trends are bad long term, and they require us to all sacrifice, maybe sacrifice for our lives. Now for children yet on born. I think that's really difficult for us to imagine doing. And then you throw in the corruption where there are people who are going heck, I'm making money. Now. This isn't a I'm not going to not cut these trees down. Now, I won't. Live to benefit from these the money. These trees will make you know hundred years from now two hundred and I certainly won't benefit from using them as a carbon sink. I think the system works against a solving those kind of long term problems in the long term problems are excess stencil than what does that mean? There was a great line of congressman the beating with the Roosevelt back into the about a mental policies and the guy say like he'd you not both Stati what stereoty ever done for me. Well, listen, it's and it's more than that. Because everybody likes to focus on the climate change question because it's right in our face. And we get into the question of is there isn't there, and blah, blah to me once again, that's the shiny object. Because the even if you want to say that we must do something about okay have that debate elsewhere, but whose against clean water, right? I mean, there's there's a number of these pollution issues where you're going really can't we agree on? Let's pollute the freshwater. But we fight. But Tebessie exactly like yes should be. Democratic is clean water Republican Democratic it's crazy same short term long term deal. Yeah. It is. And I think that's better size Lee. The problem that you know, as long as short term specialty interest are ruling the conversation is very hired web. Any kind of long term discussion about what benefits you monitors a whole for? Well, and how does it how does it fair into the imperial debate? I mean, there was a wonderful sixty minutes story. A while back that was talking about tanks armored vehicles, right and congress was voting on. Should we are should we build more tanks and the military came to congress and said, we don't need any more tanks. We have them all sitting on lots. They're all covered up. We have more than we need. And yet they voted for more tanks because the people in the districts of the representatives make a living building stuff for tanks. So in other words, it's the tail wagging the dog there, and we have a system where we're going to continue this imperial sort of thing for what Eisenhower talked about, right? The military industrial complex not. Just because it benefits the big fat cats in the in the in the corporations that make this stuff, but because it benefits the workers themselves who are trying to feed their family and put food on the table. Absolutely. That I think that's where sometime clash of interest. Is what leads to the seasons seem to make no sense. But let me just say bombing of anybody out. Let me try to throw a lighthearted one on. You'll know we can maybe rock seeing sop on the Don Carling time machine. Forget bring him back US. But I forget, I know that are places where you would like to be a fly on a wall in terms of historical reality, you know, being debacle of candidate. Would be fascinating many ways will probably not be fun. Right. Not be like a heck UK. Joni would be a what would be a heck be one. What would be if you do have your, Don? Carleen time machine a place where you would mind hanging out for a while for fun. Not for while. I won't there. What he would be like. To see it live. But for noise like would we have a good time for at least a couple of hours? Oh, I think of silly things that gets kind of personal where I'm sitting here going. You know, I wanna see a boxing match between. Dempsey, Jack Dempsey. I wanna see I wanna see things that were happening before I was born that I'm interested in. So instead of a real giant historical event like the signing of the declaration of independence. I get down to silly little personal things. Like, I I wanna see this or I wanna see, you know, I I, you know, there's a movie, and you know, it field of dreams, right? Where where the the guy goes back and gets to play baseball with his dad in a sort of a ghostly sort of sense. And I get personal with like I'd like to go meet my grandfather when he was thirty years old and pal around with him. I mean, so that's that's not really like global history that's personal history. Of course. So that's what makes it fun sometime. But but those are the kind of things that that that fill up like the top ten list of things I'd like to go back to I'd have to get down to number twenty number thirty number forty on the list before I met these giant political events unless you're talking about the dark stuff. And then I. Get I mean, when you talked about wanting to see the battle of of Kenny or any of those kinds of things those those are because I don't know the answers. So and a lot of people don't know this. But nobody has any idea what ancient warfare was like, you can't reconstruct it, and there's been a lot of attempts to do. So of course, you know, my mind says I want to be suspended a hot air balloon one hundred fifty feet above that battle. So I can see exactly what the physics of, you know, ancient combat looked like right? So those are the and those really aren't about history there about answering long standing questions that I've had so I that. But what about you? Let me let me return to two and turn the question around me. Where would you like to be her? In a game where I would like to be probably for two hours because before mother medecine the lack of mo- their medicine exceed on all of that is a whole different scenario. But I am absolutely fascinated. We'd put he stayed societies. So even going way back in the day like what these life like in a guy that try like the way we have lead for most of human. He study ten thousand or so as the last ice age is giving away, and and you already is coming into being what would that feel like now again, give myself two hours because by Dan, you know, I feel like between beta or seating Mehan the thrive next door cloudy me on the head or like that may get unpleasant redefine I, but that would be one that fascinates make white beat. I was reading some interesting books on some of the some of the studies that were done in the early and mid twentieth century by some of these people that were trying to to recreate as best they could exactly. You were talking about. So they were going to the last few societies on the planet that still basically functioned as they used to. So NEW GUINEA was one of the places that they used to go to and there are photographs of these tribes in NEW GUINEA that are fighting each other that the archaeologist or it's an anthropologist at the anthropologist took photos of and then try to extrapolate what you learned from watching those tribes to every other pre industrial state throughout his to me. That's the closest you can come to a time machine to try to see what it was that you wanted to see. And you know, it's it's a little sad. It's a little like the extinction of an animal species. But it would be a lot harder to do that today. If you wanted to you might have to go invade some of those few islands off the coast of India, or whatever were there. Although that could be dangerous to. Yeah. As we have seen, exactly. I have to turn it dark somehow at the end. I know man, I was trying to go further light on. But no, no. This is proprietary Danielle. We leave it on the dark side. I see. Okay. That's that's the way it goes. Cool. Well, thank you so much for to converse ation. Thank you. You too, buddy. My thanks to Danielle for coming on the program. Or did I go on his probably little both enjoyed talking with him. As always I talked with him more than you hear me talk with him. So this was just one of those times where we you know, let you all listen in. I did have an addendum as I said to hardcore history Denham after that discussion. I thought of something I should have brought up when we were talking about the Nazis and the company they keep and how this should somehow be factored into where you wanna place them on any political spectrum, we neglected we Royal we me all by myself neglected to bring up the groups in Germany after the first row war that were associated with the Nazis. In other words, we talked about countries that wouldn't have associated themselves with left us, but what about elements German society? I mean, how do I forget to bring up the paramilitary groups like the stall home in the fry core? Right. These these groups that were formed mostly of disgruntle. Old and maybe rootless and lost veterans after the war who signed up to police, you know, Germany, streets and root out and beat up or kill communists. These are people who fought for the emperor. They are people whom. There's no leftism attached to them at all. I mean, these are people that that wanted a monarch and were fiercely anti-communist, anti Marxist and think that those people stabbed them in the back. Remember that phrase, and that that's how they lost the first World War. The person that will begin to associate himself with the Nazis early on. They will break over competing weird conspiratorial beliefs, but early on is general Ludin Dorf Eric Ludin door few remember him right guy who commanded the entire German army for bunch of the war and was basically one half of a military dictatorship. That commanded Germany over the last couple of years of the first World War. This is an ardent anti leftist. This is a monarchy. I mean, why would loot endorphins taking pictures with Hitler and associated himselves with the Nazis and by the way during Hitler's great March. You know to trying to take over the government the one he ended up in jail for where they got shot at by police in Hermann Goering took a bullet in the groin one. Guys, oppose didn't fall to the ground. When the rifles went off and that was lewd indoor marching in the front with everybody who he's supposedly walks right up to the to the police holding the rifles who just shot down a bunch of people, including his. Own Butler and Luton. Georgia's moves the rifle to one side and walks past him. This guy is not going to associate himself with you know, Marxist Leninists, revolutionaries the old line from the French king holds true here be this guy is the virtual representation of the old state and the old regime. This is everything that the leftist. We're fighting against why on earth would associate himself with the Nazis, and why would groups like the fry core. And the stall home do that if they thought the Nazis were anything like the leftist, they loathed and that they blamed for the stab in the back theory. I mean, it just as I said there's a lot of ways to create a political spectrum as something to graph, the political beliefs of people, and there's no question that the one I grew up with the traditional one is extremely limited. But as we said, if you're going to change this then we ought to acknowledge that there are people that you'll see that will make other people out to be idiots because they don't realize Nazis are on the left. No. That makes the person who says that may be looked like they don't know that the rules have been changed as I said, there's nothing wrong with that. But you kinda have to say that you changed what you know, you put in the equation for extra. Why when you, you know, slam somebody forgetting a different answer than you God, especially if they were using the old, man. Breath. Stay safe everyone.

US Hitler Germany Danielle Bolelli Democratic People Vati Joseph Stalin France North Korea Betty America German Workers Party Taliban Denham Don Barry Goldwater France Dan Washington
Getting The New Deal Done (1933)

This Day In Esoteric Political History

16:25 min | 2 months ago

Getting The New Deal Done (1933)

"Let me. Tell you about express VPN, suspect that a lot of you like me will use incognito mode on your browser when you're searching for something that you don't want others to know about, but the catch is that your Internet. Service provider can still see every website you've ever visited, but express VPN can help reroute and secure your web browsing. It is incredibly easy to toggle on and off and surf away the way that I do knowing that you are secure and protected. Check it out. Express VPN, dot com slash this day once again. Express VPN dot com slash this day. Hello and welcome to this day in Esoteric political history from radio. Toby at my name is jody advocate. This Day June sixteenth nineteen, thirty, three, a special session of Congress, adjourned it'd begun three months earlier, and all told Congress passed and President Roosevelt signed into law fifteen major pieces of legislation aimed at combating effects of the Great Depression. This is of course came to be known as the new deal joined to talk about the passage of the new deal by has always Nicole Hammer of Columbia Hello Mickey Hey Jodi. So I I will confess that one of the reasons. I wanted to do this topic as we saw that you know. This date is considered the passage of the new deal and I will say like the new. New Deal is something I'm aware of monumental legislation, monumental series of of acts I had never really thought of it as something that like had to go through the legislative process, and maybe was you know argued and bargained over, and so forth like for some reason it just is this thing that existed and I hadn't ever really thought about the process by which it came to be. Yeah, I think we often think of it as you know the new deal era or this sort of amorphous platform that FDR had, but this this period this first one hundred days, which becomes part of the way that we measure presidencies. Remarkable for the raft of real legislation that it passed, and we should know that this is. This is really just the first new dealers second new deal that comes a couple of years later. That really gives us some of that look legislation as well, but all of that had to be worked out and the edgy. You could pass fifteen major pieces of legislation and work. Work out the text of them and get them pass through Congress. In one hundred days is something is unfathomable now? Yeah, and we and there are some really fascinating elements to that process. I. I will say yes, so you do you talk? I I knew deal. Is Civilian Conservation Corps? The Civil Works Administration. The Farm Security Administration than the national. Industrial Recovery, act and And, then the second wave is when you get the WPA works. Progress, Administration Social Security Act, a bunch of other acts as we said, there's a ton, but yes it does come in two waves and I do want to linger for a second on the first one hundred days. Thing because Roosevelt was the one who coined first hundred days, which has now become a. A kind of big talking point in presidencies. That's when you have your political capital, and that's when you can really knack top line agenda, Roosevelt coin kind of after the fact, but also Li listeners. If you do the math on one hundred days if we're talking about his first hundred days ending in the middle of June that means that he was not sworn in. The Spring March fourth I believe so, what's what's going on there? So yes, March fourth used to be the day that presidents were sworn in, and you can understand from an eighteenth century perspective why that is! The election is held in November. It takes a while to gather the results. Sing at them, transmitted across the various states and back into a central location, and then for the new president to actually travel to the capital and takers job. It just takes a long time, and what actually changes. That is the depression and Franklin Roosevelt's inauguration because there were these almost. Almost four months where the nation in the middle of a major crisis, just kind of languished because Herbert Hoover. who was president wasn't doing much, and people were waiting for the relief that they had voted for I. Imagine you know they moved it from early March to late January I think there's probably listeners out there who are now thinking like. Why shouldn't this just happened the next day keys? You know move onto the next president. I don't know we'll see if we'll get a push that. There seem to be other priorities for the country. At the moment we'll see. Come this November, so let's talk a little bit about this. As as the legislation, I mean when we think of massive pieces of legislation, we often think about the battles that go into. Do you have a sense of whether? There really was a anti new deal contingent fighting the other side of this against Roosevelt you know in the broader society, there was certainly Republicans and conservatives in the country where very wary of this new raft of legislation that was happening, and certainly by like two, three, four, five six. Six years in to FDR's presidency, there was a wholesale. You know political coalition opposing the new deal, but FDR had the presidency. Democrats had control of both houses of Congress. He had to navigate with some of the more conservative members of his party. Russell with his cabinet to figure out exactly how all of these new programs were going to be carried out, but there was there was no effective political way to stop this train as it was rolling on because FDR just had a huge mandate people. Something to be done about this catastrophic financial crisis, and he was pretty much of a rubber stamp, and I guess that brings us to the other big element here, which is presidential power I mean you you said he you know obviously had both houses of Congress this moment of crisis, but this was also really a moment in which he really seized the presidency, and he did a number of things that we think of as part of the new deal through executive order as well. Yeah, and I think it's important to put this in the context of the time, people. People were so desperate in the United States because of the economic collapse that there was this real desire among some Americans, to have a strong man to have a dictator have somebody who could just come in and start fixing things, and they were really frustrated with the checks and balances, and that's what I mean by saying that FDR had a mandate. People just want him to do things, and so he does executive orders. He does quick legislation as well things like the bank holiday where he just shuts down all of the banks and the idea that president could do that. It's not entirely clear that he actually coined, but he saw it as a thing that the country needed, and so he was going to do it. Right and I think we've talked on the show before. We've seen that play out this year, I. Think a lot of people had that instinct in the wake of the Krona viruses. Well like you know, the presidency should step up and there should. Should be of decisive sweeping action in a and and I think the thing we learned in that case, and in this case, and throughout is that it comes down to you know the particular context that particular action whether you support it or not, and the particular person who happens to be president, and we can have all these laws and norms, and so forth, and it's really just like. I'd like I like a strongman when they're doing something that feels necessary, and then I'm on board with yeah, I think that's always been the case. When comes to power in the US. We often talk about political power in terms of like these political ideology is that people have intellectually thought through liberalism versus conservatism, but a lot of times it really comes down to whether or not you agree with the ends of the political action that are being taken in that kind of determines how comfortable you are with large exercises of power I mean the corona virus relief package had pretty broad support because people were scared. And before we get to that kind of type of support that choas during a crisis on the new deal itself were there things that we can say did did not go through things. Roosevelt maybe wanted to do and got a sensor. He couldn't actually accomplish. Yeah, I mean. There are things like tax reform that he really wanted, but that he didn't get especially in those days that he would get a little bit more of when the nation was at war several years later, but pretty much he had this philosophy that you should throw everything at the wall and just see what sticks, and certainly in his first few. Few Years Indefinitely in these one hundred days. He had a lot of latitude to do that. This is before right that the courts can come in and check him. They need time to look at legislation and decide whether it's constitutional or unconstitutional. He has a lot of his laws automatically struck down in this moment of emergency. He's able to put the laws in place. Carry them out and see what happens. Some of them fails them work, but he was very experimental in that way right? Yeah! One less thing on you know the mandate that the president has this moment and and the way they respond to crisis. I don't think we can sit here and rattle off the people who were against the new deal right and they haven't gone down in history as like on the wrong side of history and it just it just I. I have this thing that I think about a lot which is. You hear that said a fair amount now like Oh, history's going to remember these people who are on the wrong side of some of these questions and I. Don't know you tell me you're the historian. I generally feel like no history doesn't really remember those folks people remember the the winners and people tend to forget, and even sometimes absolve the people who were on the quote, unquote wrong side of history i. think that is generally right now. I think that the exception to that is if their ideas are later borne out whether we agree with them or not right so abolitionists in the eighteen thirties. They're not winning necessarily in their. Their lifetime, but they ultimately went out. And so we recover and remember them or somebody like. Barry Goldwater who, in nineteen, sixty four went down in one of the worst defeats in Presidential History but as the conservative movement takes, hold once, Ronald Reagan wins all of a sudden people are like Oh. Let's revisit Barry Goldwater. So it really depends on less. What happened at the time and more how it fits in with our contemporary values I want to ask one question about kind of government intervention in moments of crisis I mean you know if you look at the last hundred years or so? If seems to me like generally the response to. Economic Catastrophe has been big government intervention. We have the new deal. The stimulus efforts and the property of banks after the two thousand and eight economic collapse, and then this year, when maybe it wasn't as big as or as as lasting as it could have been, but nevertheless pretty big government intervention. Do you were age you by my premise, and do you feel like there's a reason that we don't hear the case for small government in these big moments or you know? Am I reading this wrong cherry? Picking and I'm way off base. I think that's broadly true. I mean I think that despite the attacks from the right on the new deal. And other economic interventions including like tarp, the Recovery Act in two, thousand, eight, two, thousand nine. When people are scared, they want the government to get involved, and that doesn't necessarily always lead to a long-term reforms, but in those moments we see broad support for some kind of federal action. I mean we see it in the nineteen seventies when the recession is starting to hit, and inflation is out of control, and Nixon puts in place, wage and price controls. I think what's important for people to understand that. Back in the nineteenth century, we had a lot of really bad economic problems, and the government didn't intervene, and it was pretty disastrous for a lot of Americans. People lost their livelihoods. They lost their lives because there was no intervention, the belief was you Sankar swam on your own in the government didn't really have a role in helping you okay. We're wrapping up, but I do want to do one thing which we do from time to time, which is talk about some of the other things that happened on this day that we haven't gotten to in. There's some interest is an interesting list here. We're GONNA. Rip through three of them and give quick takes on them, but. But in eighteen, fifty eight Abraham Lincoln said something that I think a lot of people have heard. The line is a house divided against itself cannot stand, and I have always felt like that line gets misinterpreted, and it gets interpreted as a call for bipartisanship. When in fact as I see it was a call for Hey, slavery's over you better get on board and stop dividing in this house, but is that. Is that right? That is very like this is all my way or the highway statement and people read it as let's all come together, but remember this is like twenty years of plus of politicians, not being able to come together at all right Nah okay. To Bill Clinton has his sister soldier moment. Do you want to sort of quickly? Give your take on that. Yeah, so this is the sister soldier moment where he denounces a black rapper and part of the reason that he does. It is because he wants to show that he's not in hoc to the black vote, and appeal to white voters. This does not go down well with a lot of black voters, but it becomes sort of like his triangulation. Move that he can be both A. A civil rights guy and the hero for white voters right, and then in general now I think among political media, certainly sister soldier moment is thought of as a time when you try and repudiate the most extreme, or what you see is the most extreme elements of a group while still potentially aligning yourself, and I think we will see a lot of that, those attempts have triangulation over the rest of twenty twenty for sure. I think you can count on it and then our third one Do people remember this in two thousand fifteen. There was this TV personality. He had some reality. TV shows he'd also written some books or some books ghost-written firm, but this guy, this real estate mogul Donald Trump he came down the escalator in trump tower, and announced that he was running for president that was on this day in two thousand fifteen. You're not required to give a take on that. The president plenty, but well I'll give you one take I remember texting furiously with friends while was happening, but something important for people to remember is that it was the very next day that dylann roof carried out his massacre of nine black churchgoers, and I think that those two events though not. Related at the time, I think are married in the historical imagination, and certainly to events that punctuated and capture this era while I. Don't think I'd realize. Those were a back to back in the same year. Well okay well that brings us the this episode. Thank you as always Nicole Hammer. Thank you so much Jodi go this day in Esoteric. Esoteric political history is a proud member of radio, Pierre from Pierre Ex. You can find out lots more about the show including how to suggest the topic at this day pod, dot, com follow our instagram and twitter feeds act this day pod. Our researcher and producer is Jacob Feldman. My name is Jody Avirgan. Thanks again for listening and we'll see you soon. Congress while the one remaining instruments the private. Executive power. Way War agape emergent thing. As great as a power that would be given to me it. We were in Pakistan. There's a good chance that you like me are doing a lot of your web browsing all of it maybe from home these days and perhaps like me. You're trying to figure out what that means for privacy and the security of your online activity. Who is watching who is tracking? What can they see well? Maybe you do what I do from time to time, which is fire up incognito mode incognito it. It sounds great. This means that no one will see what I'm up to, but here's the thing. Incognito mode doesn't really hide your activity at your Internet service provider can still see every single website you've ever visited. That's why even when I'm at home whenever I go online I use express APN express. VPN Is an APP that re routes your Internet connection through their secure servers, so that your ISP? ISP CAn't see the sites that you visit. It also keeps all of your information secure by encrypting one hundred percent of your data expressed. VPN does a ton of work to protect your browsing, but you don't have to do a ton of work to use it. It's incredibly easy. You just toggle on or off one simple button. I'm in the habit of just switching it on when I start browsing it. It runs in the background. I'm off to the races I. don't even really think about it. Protect your online activity today with the VPN. Rated number one by seen it and wired visit express VPN dot com slash this day, and you can get an extra three months free on a one year package that's expressed VPN dot com slash this day one more time. Express VPN dot com slash this day. Radio Tokyo. Acts.

President Roosevelt president Congress FDR Nicole Hammer executive Barry Goldwater Farm Security Administration Toby Civil Works Administration Civilian Conservation Corps United States Congress Sankar Abraham Lincoln Bill Clinton
360 - The Truck Nuts War - (Live in Phoenix)

The Dollop with Dave Anthony and Gareth Reynolds

1:30:45 hr | 1 year ago

360 - The Truck Nuts War - (Live in Phoenix)

"You're listening to the dollop on the all things comedy network upcoming Joe's on February eighth. You'll be in Philadelphia. On February ninth will be in Atlanta on March sixteenth will be in Durham and on may eighteenth. We in Brooklyn, go to doll podcast dot com to get tickets Gareth will be doing comedy stand up comedy, February twenty-first to twenty-third zanies in Chicago, March first and second zanies in Nashville, go to Gareth Reynolds dot com for more V dollop is brought to you by joi bird. Have you heard about the revolution in online furniture shopping and joy over the company behind it? All we we ordered a chair. It's a beautiful great chair. It's giant. I can sit in the chair with my doc. That's how it comfortably. We don't even have to retouching each other. We we my wife liked the chair so much that she then ordered joy bird for her office. So that's a pretty good Hello recommendation with job. Are you get a one of a kind of furniture made of for your unique? 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I've been I've been doing my business with them for a while Gareth has his own webpage. Wis Krispies, I have my own web page was grace base. And of course, we have the dolphins sources whisker squares based. So that it seems like we like them. Nice clean templates. That's what attracted me to him. You can do all kinds of stuff published blogs, showcase your work, so products and promote your online bit your physical online business and outs upcoming events. Tons tons of stuff. They got analytics that help you out built in search engine free insecure hosting nothing to Patrick upgrade ever. It's twenty four seven or ward women winning customer support cannot say enough about how much I like squarespace so head over to Spurs pay dot com for a free trial. And when you're ready to launch us the offer code dollop to save ten percent off your first purchase of a website at domain that squarespace dot com. Enter code dollop. See your guy, and you had a meeting with some people in the press was there, and they filmed it, and you said all shut everything down, and then and then you shut everything down. And then everyone was like, well, you always your fault in near like now, it's everybody else's. Well, if you're that stupid and don't know what comes out of your mouth, I really got to recommend therapy. And specifically talks base talks paces and online therapy company. Between work family and everything in between. These days is not always easy to find time for yourself talks basis therapy for how we live today. It's mobile available when you need it. And it's a Ford -able talks online therapy makes taking care of your mental health more convenient than ever before a lot of people can't get to therapists is this is a way to do it. No matter what you're going through. You're not alone. Join more than one million people who are feeling happier with talks base. It's convenient easy to use steady. 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They're just mattresses to sleep brand that continues to revolutionize it's line of products to create an exceptionally comfortable sleep experience one night at a time. A casper mattress mattresses a perfectly designed for humans engineered to soothe and cradle your natural geometry, which I have a lot of you spend one thirty your life sleeping. So you should you should be comfortable. Casper mattress, combine multiple support supportive memory foams for quality sleep service and the right amounts of both sink. And bouncing man, do I sink designed to Upton assembled right here in the u s no hassle free returns. If you're not completely satisfied satisfied, free shipping and returns in the US. And canada. We have a mattress we have a casper mattress very much. Enjoy. It comes out of the box swells up like it's like a giant living thing. But yeah, your body just kind of forms to it. It's super comfortable. I've very very very much like it. I'm getting great sleep to get fifty dollars toward select matches by visiting casper dot com slash up and using promo code dollop, a checkout. That's casper dot com slash tall and promo code dot for fifty dollars towards. Slack mattresses, terms and conditions apply. And now we're going to have a live podcast that we just did in Phoenix. Doozy. No, no, no, no. No, nope. Nope. Sorry. We're in Phoenix. Yeah. That's right. Thanks for having us. God bless very Goldwater. John mccain. You're listening to the dollop. This is hurt British history podcasts each week. That's right. I yeah. Dave, anthony. Yeah. From United Kingdom history to my friend Gazza bloody clue what's going on in it. Does he know? Governor now. Don't do it. I just want to say tonight. If you brought somebody who's never seen the podcast, and you and you brought them, and you thought that tonight, you would get some intelligent. Really good old fashioned American history. That's not happening. What is legit by all means? Late nineteen s northern Arizona. Okay. Late eighties. John's salaries John salaries hours salaries, okay said he was out four by foreing with some friends. Interesting start, sir. When someone yelled, quote, go show him, you got balls will Dave you are setting quite a scene here. It's classic is this. How jackass starts classic classic. Arizona wheelers and someone out there ego. Another version of the story. Oh, is that one of John's friends actually, put plastic dangling testicles on the back of his truck either way? Oh my God. Wait, Dave tweets for that. Cover up issue. I feel like balls are coming off either way John salaries was struck by lightning bolt. What if he sold plastic testicles? Oh my God. This is the guy who what this man. To hang on the back of trucks like a beautiful ornament. I feel like you're doing at integration for Spencer's gifts and not telling anyone. He. Am I wrong to think that a pair of balls got ripped off on the four wheeling expedition? No, it was there were just some balls. One one version is they just someone just yelled, Ernie sh show me got balls. Another version is that one of the trucks out there somebody that actually put plastic testicles on the back of their truck. And he's like I'm going to invent the thick that exists. Right. Sure. Okay. All right. Okay. So he he started researching truck testicle. What? Okay. How what library? Did you go to eight for this information? Excuse me with this being history or by biology, like I told you before I don't think we have a lot of stuff about this week. It might be in science. It's will not be in science. I know the science area. You know, normally guys like you sit at the computers pretend to write while they're masturbating. Well, it's the eighties. So we don't really have computers. I mentioned word processing which exists. Now. You're thinking of microfiche, I am not, sir. Look, do you wanna learn about plastic truck balls or do you want to sit here and bust? My chops about how we don't have word processors in the back, which we do. There are couple computer companies right now that are competing honestly have maybe open a paper every now. And then because that's where we get our information, but we could still weren't process. Do do you think it'd be an automotive? Is there an automotive biological section? Not yet. Talking about truck testing. I'm aware. So when we say shish somebody you're not a good librarian. I'm not. Quote, as far as I've been able to find out. There was a woman in northern Nevada who started selling them in the mid eighties. But smaller in a different look. She she was like should be funny. He's like they should be accurate. That's she fell short, pardon the pun. It sounds like she just put like normal size testicles on a truck normal ones this heap. He is what big ones John was going to take it up a notch and make much bigger testicles full size testicles. That's right. Awesome. Because in this hypothetical world size matters to man. Something's gonna laugh that truck off the road. If they see regular nuts. Your name big. Calls. He got to work using CAD software common tool of mechanical engineers. And what cat software and created a three dimensional design. I mean, imagine walking like this is so eighty eight take a look at this drug here. We can see can rotate them. What do you think? Those are testicles exactly. But they're kind of big. So from that he made a prototype, and then contacted and injection molded plastics company in southern California who took him off of speakerphone to clarify what he wanted. Sorry, brother. What do you need more? It sounded like you said big bull balls for drugs. Throw you off speaker there real quick, mom and dad are here. The plastics company was run by Chad tumble. Chad, quote, he approached me as professional, of course. Brings in a suitcase. Sorry, not a suitcase packing a suitcase professional ally. I'm going to Hawaii after this. I know I see Basie, but I'm here to talk about bull. Don't worry about thing. I'm doing Europe. And I'm doing it right after this. So that's why I got the two and then the one carry on. Put out stuff. Start showed up to offices with suitcases. Yeah. I was the weekend. I was in the manufacturing business at the time. He approached me in a way, not to offend me. Because he didn't know if I was going to be receptive to the idea fair. So he spent some more time trying to describe it tactfully, and it took me a long time to know what he was talking about, you know, skinned show off the truck. What skin showed us show humanize a truck in a way show? Manley truck skin to show a man late truck, put skin on a truck, exactly. And you're the guy to do it. So just skin around like rap a truck was skin. All not all over just a little something in the back. Maybe just hanging whatever. But you'd think hangs off of a body could be man good, man. Tale. That's a great idea. Let's go ahead with that. Only thing is. I don't think fellas details. Another wall. We've good pitch though. What does a guy have that hangs that doesn't a tale? Which again was a dynamite coal. If only goes those. No, that's great. Maybe two noses next to each other. And they're inside a chin. Wait a minute. That sounds like balls. Quote, we were probably talking for an hour and a half before I realized he was talking about balls. So that when you bring a suitcase to a ball debate. So Chad agreed to make them. Sure. John named his company bowls balls, creative. What was it inspired by? Bulls balls trademarked the phrase may to swing. Was like the hammock industry like what? I assume doing had it. And trek not. So we're born truck nuts are fake testicles that hang down from the back bumper over track usually from the hitch. But John salaries wasn't model believe this is something we're discussing this is like me, neither what I. Yeah. Okay. Better than Barry Goldwater. Or is it the same? It's tough. But John salaries wasn't alone in the new truck testicle business in New Mexico. David oh drive is still rife David ham was racing in a desert rally for those elitist that's desert car race. And as David was racing. He saw the truck in front of them had a pair of custom-made testicles. Those are mine. Hanging from the hitch his life was changed forever. David was taken by the quote, large fleshy testicle, not literally get in the car. She was a novelty shut up. We're FBI. We're going to be a. And he decided to make them himself to sell them to like minded gents. So both of these geniuses had their inspiration and idea from literally seeing it somewhere else. Will you? Yeah. I think. Yeah. Doesn't say they're not you can't patent them. Because there are no. Because you don't want to go to the patent office. It'd be like I wanna pet and truck nuts. No, you can't. But you also like you can't because they're made after something that exists. You can't because of literally can't patent truck nuts. But also you can't. I mean, you can I mean, I don't know what I what I would picture the patent office is like a parole board science. I mean, there's no way. Someone doesn't have the Pat on bud plugs. Like people have patents. You're looking right at him. Jack off. But there's that's why every time you walk into my place. I say this is the house that but books built. You don't have a house. That's why that guy was so mad. We shouldn't opin there. So David did not run into Chad. It was very hard for him to find a molding shop that would manufacture fake testicles the first nine places he went to said, no. I mean, okay. It is crazy but get off your high plastic horse just make some balls either. This is my suitcase. Yes, they have to be because. These are big nuts. Are they'll? You. Do you want to elephantiasis? I do know. The tenth shop said, yes. Okay. The ten I said the tent ten we can do it. We have the now this was probably two years after John started his business, so nineteen Ninety-six David began selling fake nuts to hang from the back year, truck or car or car. Okay. So that's a little different. And I ain't get them for bicycles and motorcycles. Yeah. I know skateboarding, but you trip over them a lot, but they a lot. Anyway, I gotta be honest. It's hard to Ali with a ball bag underneath you last night. My wife nine twenty got fucked up 'cause this nut sack. Last night. My wife did not like the video. I showed her of the cool owing bike nuts. Bike nuts. Dave's David truck. Testicle company was called your nuts with his e. Well, you know, obviously, this is quite a divide as to who do you side with? But you're nuts. I'm gonna go with truck nuts. Anything that doesn't use z to be wacky? I have always wanted with totally agree the two companies launched within a couple of years of each other mid. So of course, this was before the internet. So it's difficult to sell such a wonderful but niche product yet, it'd be real truck Tesco enthusiasts to have a pair. Oh, yeah. You had to be psychotic to find. And then to find out they exist. You're shitting me. Yes. The same librarian. No. I was here. They exist. He wrote a book it's in automotive biology. It's the only book in the section. Now, the internet internet became a tool for the common, man and jobs. Weds John's website was founded in one thousand nine hundred nine bowls balls dot com. David had begun using an AOL website at nine hundred ninety nine switch to his own website in two thousand and two your nuts dot com with Z, of course, still available somehow when asked for information about the will Demane David said, quote, the website was taken down so long ago, you'll never find it. So there's no definitive answer to which of these two men was online selling ball trucks. Testicles? I right, but Jonah and already been selling online creating the first website devoted to selling personally dog tags. So he was Djaama's a Amana ahead of the game with selling sold dog tags personalised personal name, unlike normal dog tags. Sure. Yeah. Unlike normal dog. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So obviously being online changed everything David John became aware each other and quick must have been the greatest thing to tell one of you know, there's another guy what the hell you talking about. Look, he's got a website and everything I kinda like it because he spells nuts with z. So goofball, you do that with truck Mets Z's are crazy might actually if they're hanging onto the other last letter trying to grab it like those as lawyer. I'm fucking crazy. I'm outta here. It's like grabbing that t- like day save me from myself days very conducted by. They're crazy. They try to make this word plural of the year, a your element Z. My side is called bulls ball's not truck nuts. Well, there's other filler gets. Z's trying to get back there, those balls, they're not human balls. You're not their actual there. That's why they're that big. They should be the size of your not. Hey, gee, turn on me. Check. If you buy a pair of balls online there in your possession. That means they're your nuts. I'm gonna go smoke weed in the car. Excuse me. For nothing yell at me nuts, goofy. So David jam became began fighting over who was the originator of truck testicles. It's an attractive makes probably made the women of the nineties swoon. David insists he was original inventor. But when a reporter asked him for proof, he became angry, quote, no not this is not court. It's. Exactly. Okay. Both John and David were upset that another guy was also in the truck test. There's us third. Claim to be I've also entered the business. Then they first had contact with each other in the early two thousands. When John called David quote, David David says, quote, he called me on the phone one day. And he said, you're nuts. Don't look enough like Bowles balls you. I'm sorry. You have the wrong number, sir. This is a print shop. Hell's going? I told them that he was the only person to ever tell me that. And then he got all indignant. And he says, I tell you what I'm gonna make my own bulls balls, and I'm gonna bury you. I wished him the best and sure enough about six months later. I get these balls on the mail that looked like he went to a slaughterhouse and put a mold on a dead bowl. And that's how bulls balls were born. I I have some questions. Now, he's he's disparaging the quality of the bull balls that he gets like he's like they're not like how I guess we want to see them. They're not they're not a quality set of not a good cutter nut. That's right. Okay. And he's saying that some stranger walked into his called them and said, hey, the test goes you're making are not real enough looking. So he's to do you better? Because what you're doing is fraud to the ball world. Right. Okay. Is there any are? They maybe playing in a market of two. John says this version of history is a complete lie. Sure. There was no threat and testicles were not sent to David John's testicle maker Chad said a phone call did happen. But it was David who called John. Okay. David the ham, right? David is ham. Okay. Quote, David ham contacted John saying he was the first on the internet and all this other stuff, and he told them, and he told them it wasn't true. So they developed a disagreement between them. Okay. So David idol based on these two stories one was like real one sounds like it's from an insane person. Right. So either way contact was made argument over testicles, no resolution. That's right. Right. The fighting over who was the first online truck testicle maker guy. Imagine telling someone you don't know about what's going it caught up in some bullshit. What's that? I don't want it. No, I don't know. But you know, this about me, we don't know what your other two. We'll just barbecues. But. My job is I have an online company that sells bulls balls for automobiles and regular balls, and we regular bones. Yeah. Probably that's the spring. Anyway. There's this other guy who totally encroached on my market by also making balls for cars and he's a kid. Z's quirky to put on a word house stupid. Dizzy, look at the end of a word can like it's trying to be part of can we do this thing where we don't know each other for sure. Yeah. No. That's why I don't opened up a lot. The two men shot. Oh, nothing. Go ahead. I was just giving context. Don't open up a lot have trust issues. But you're busy. You got a story to go with. Was be over here. You do your thing. The shot angry emails back and forth. Well, the internet's great. These were followed by furious phone calls, though when he asked for them, David ham, refuse to show, the emails to reporter, MAC Lamma ru of Feis, okay? Because of the internet truck testicles were no longer in product sales exploded, what is wrong with us. We are just not worthy of earth. Each year. More people saw this amazing product popularity grew now truck nuts are being featured on television shows and the term entered our public vernacular. Sort of. Chucks in. What is known as read that country by elitist coastal liberals were cruising around with nuts. Swinging off the back. Oh, Florida, Ohio and Arizona. In the two thousand eight interview John said, quote, I've put a lot of people to work and made a lot of money. I've made hundreds of deals both local and international. I have dealerships. I have dealerships. I have dealers dealerships. I worked like a Ford nut does the Ford nut. Now, this mom. This is unbelievable. Yeah. There are some truck dealerships that will so you. Yes. So you what a pair of nuts with your truck? Now, did you want the testicle Essary? Absolutely. We're willing to sacrifice heating and air conditioning. If it's too much. Imperative we get those bolts. That's my wife Muslim. I have dealerships. I work with who include a bulls balls as one of the options customers can choose when buying new trucks for sure. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And there was a variety quote who. Shopping. Little pink, aren't they? It's up to you. They don't. If you want him get him. It's like, I'm a little more. Pink. What what what do you mean by paying not not not paying what what do you? What is it that? You're I mean, these ones are good. I like these to these are my favorite. They're both good. I don't hate the pink ones. But these are better these dark ones great. Ain't going. He Honey are you even looking anymore? Shut the fuck up. There are pink ones. Think. I mean, this company has been in business for too long. If that exists for the ladies. Or maybe Miami. That's that's very Miami. As anyone stopped at that women would like a set of ovaries on the back of their trucks. We start that business. Just like push to the brink of thought and rationality the minds of these two men were there you go do over east. It's weird. It's like, right. Exactly. It's fucking wear. Is saying to you over his on the inside balls down like people want to see him. If they wanted to say ovaries, God would put them in a sec black balls. You didn't put him behind the curtain over his backstage balls upfront doing their our. Oh, lord. You are stereotypes. And there was variety. Quote, a quick visit Dubose balls dot com. Shows the array of off the only way you can visit. The options available to the customer in sizes ranging from four point five to ten inches in length and it lake big bowl. Your check that's in its nineties. Tell you were their daily at ten inch wingspan mug. Good. It's beautiful. It's unbelievable. Drop an anchor. It's like every guy I saw at the YMCA when I was in Wisconsin. Literally, it me is what are you gonna do? Was like. Soon as you said old guy, my brain right to the Y were in the locker room. Just like, why don't all guys everywhere towels? It's just it's not even we're towels at their knee. It's their at their knees. And they're talk they're down to watch. You're saying I got no mouthwash in here. Tim. In themselves. Say about that by bowl. Hey. Balls way the regular part of me twenty pounds ladder. He goods. Ooh. It's like a flesh color diaper poom in. Welcome everyone to your first show over there wanna say, welcome. Some some people in Australia went to one we're probably five million penguins died. So this is much better. You maybe you were there. Yeah. You were there. You also flew to San Francisco when I had my boom boom episode. Couldn't make the show. I got food. Dave dopey gross, get back to the nuts. In colors, like pink, ivory, chrome and brass. They even so one pair covered with flames and another what the herpes model. But she instead of the. And for the more patriotic one plastered with American flags. That's right. No planes knock on these two fuck and things down to that much. Nuts were so popular. People are going to any means to get them. What are you talking about John quoque theft is a problem? People steal them all the time. Maybe they're just people are like get outta here. They're not like. Oh, yeah. Awesome. To the pawnshop. They're like. John kept advancing truck test, testicle technology. Sure. Yeah. You mean in the laboratory where like is Q credited, you're gonna like this one John you'll see this is ten seconds away. From the truck. These testicles are also Bom. Created what is known as the second generation bulls ball's second gen come with a chain and a lock. Dave. I don't think I'll be the first person to say it. But if you are locking testicles to your truck you've lost the plot. But I just wonder can you get like like an apple phone trading. Can you bring your old testicles in the new one with Jane and the cover on this one shattered? Kid was playing with. You've heard a million times dropped it in the toilet. I dropped mine in the toilet. All right grandpa. He's gone to the why don't mind going to why. I mean, I've been so heartbroken without having those ones work, and I just put him in the flatbed and had him sort of dangle him out the back. He won't shut up about it. Either. They caught the eye of Maryland state, Senator del ROY Myers who said his western Maryland district was brimming with fake testicles. And said they were vulgar, vulgar and immoral quote. People are making a joke out of it. But I think it's a pretty serious problem. Nice. Try pal. Balls are very stupid. That's all you see anybody shouting about truck nuts. You have body parts hanging from hitches of cars. We've crossed a line. That's right. Meyers introduced and while oil money. Meyers introduced legislation to outlaw them in the state. The Bill would prohibit Motors from displaying anything resembling or depicting anatomically, correct or less than complexly opaquely covered human or animal genitals, human buttocks or female breasts. Now, wait a minute. You're telling this getting. I've driving a body. There's a reason he had to write it that way. Because they're some of those like I got pertaining. Baas eight-year heart. Pretend as. About if you're gonna make a law digs. Say that it's going to happen. Thanks. Now guy drives your cross the country. Now is I wish much kit. A functioning anus? Then we finally reached the bottom of the barrel for you. Dodge taking shit. I gotta drive around the block. Shits all the damn so accurate are what I guess. I'm just wondering why you would want that don't know got caught up in some kind of esscalation us both. Ford orgasms. Oh, you got the four. That did. The Ford human body. Okay. So the reason state Senator Myers wrote it like that was because hunters will kill a deer throw it in the back of the truck. And if it's written just saying you can't have testicles than they would get arrested because you could see the deers nuts. So he had to write it through this opaquely covered human or animal genitals. This. Why hunter goods still put a deer in his truck bed and those tests testicles were real. And so they wouldn't get you find a little boy. Slippery slope. So lifelike, they're my neighbors. Myers quickly became the brunt of jokes in the state of Maryland. Of course, David ham was not happy about the possible law, quote, it's not a perverted sexual thing at all. It's a sense of humor. Well, no. Louis C K logic. Actually, why the issue no. This way, the new Ford Louis CK when you put it in the garage of blocks for other cars, Jill they're made to feel ashamed by aviator. The car could only start if another cars confused feels weird. That's when the food CK will start up on its own. And it turns it self off when it's ready. Gets caught it makes a hard, right? David is not happy about the law. Quote. It's not a perverted. It's not a sexual thing at all. It's a sense of humor. This lawmakers looking out for two or three old women tennis shoes. He's got too much time on his hands. They went on. He went on to say that fifty years ago. Everyone lived in farms in America, quote, did all the little donkeys and sheep walk around with their panties on chosen wouldn't see their body was he rate. What is he talking about? Donkey farm Briggs latest adventure. Don't get Pandey's. That's right, okay. Parodies. Because there's no world to conquer. Don't get panties. Nothing came legislation playing the fifteen years ago game to fifty years ago. You could fifty whatever it is. When when people didn't live on farm. Let's go to the eighteen forties, mother fucker. You wanna get foreign industrialisation? Can't leave a guy who puts invents truck nuts. Doesn't know. When industrialization have. Nothing came relation. But last year Myers Masud for trying to force a government worker to perform sexual favors weird that guy that that guy was all set about nuts on cars do something. Let's so strange. He was just trying to find out if they had a sense of humor. April two thousand eight Florida. Senator state Senator Carey Baker put forth in amendment to find someone sixty dollars and points against their driver's license for displaying bowl genitalia reproductions on a vehicle so you might have to go to traffic school because you insist on having balls on your car. All right, right, fun hill, the die on I sorry. We're gonna have to we're gonna have to raise your insurance five hundred dollars. I'm willing to pay this. Sending a message. I want to be on the right side of bulb wars. Senator Jim king of Jacksonville was not pleased about this amendment. He explained that one of his trucks was quote, all pimped out. This guy. He's the only I'm listening to this guy this guy. I'm listening to all right. And he had truck nuts on it for a period of time. He called called quote, an expression of truck leanness. Sure. So. But in the end, he took them off because his wife told him to that is. You know? When it comes to the voters of Florida, Dave. She took off two pairs nuts that night. Truck. Now, not one. The amendment does not the amendment passed the Senate, but then didn't get passed the house. It's not allowed Florida in Virginia house member proposed the hanging of truck testicles be class for misdemeanor. She's with fines up to two hundred and fifty dollars. She's Mr. meter. He said, quote, what about the kids? What kind of message are we sending in Virginia after introduced where they came from after he introduced the legislation the house member. Learn that truck testicles kept increasing incised, and he said, quote, how how big are they gonna go. Yes. Yes. Yes. When you're talking about balls, and it sounds like a quote from Honey, I blew up the baby. He's like the guy in the preview of the perfect storm. I just don't know how big these are going to. Oh my God. Those are balls wearing a truck. This. Oh my God. Allen. What are you there pair balls or the Druk? Two. Just made a movie, absolutely -solutely trucks. So the ACLU had to Wade in because so many states are tiny about banning truck nuts, and they said truck testicles represent an idea and are protected by the first amendment. Also, don't call us here for this stuff. Again. We're doing real work over there. Okay. Time to come out here. Put up these little campfires. All right. John Saleh was amused by all this at this point. He knew any attempt to make truck testicles illegal made national headlines, which interred made people aware of truck testicles, which in turn increase sales. Yeah. And they're protected by the first amendment, right? Yes. Why couldn't that have gone to the supreme court? Judge thomas? Can I put them in my mouth righty? That's. Once. I mean, guilt Kilty wrong. Don't talk just write your stuff, and you can use them. Once just Galeano gets them out of his ass. Okay. The local news reporter John had sold several hundred thousand last year, and they ranged in size from two and a half to ten inches. So they're selling he's making millions of dollars the big sales just increase the tension between bows, balls and your nuts. But the filing just take a moment to savor the fact that if we'd heard that at the beginning we had been like what? And now, we're like. Continued it. But the finding between David and John really got going in two thousand nine after Dave they built a website called all the nuts dot com. Oh up bitch, heat did not with a z. See I told you man, that's your problem. You gotta get that wacky as Z in their disease. Try to get into that party the bones. Here's what David was granting was basically a warehouse for all all the truck nut sellers in America, and he would sell the mall, which means it's called all the nuts. So he needs all the nuts. And that includes bulls balls. Well, Dave, I'm genuinely interested to see what happens next. So he's got his nut compound. Anyone online any place in order to get some balls balls? David said, he paid bulls balls for the testicles, but never received them and his money was never returned. But bulls balls said after they took the order they figured out what David was up to and they turned him down and they told him, and then they returned the money. But still David somehow managed to get his hands on some bowls balls put them up on his website without permission from bulls balls. So John made a post on bowls balls dot com. Titled truck nuts with an S truck nuts. A quest for the truth. Did anyone else read it? Besides dave. No, no. Because if you're on that website, you're like, oh, look, it's news. This is interesting on. I'm reading the news on bulls balls dot com. I take your time that's crucial. Now, what is Iran up to? What's? Oh, the shit. Someone is illegally procuring truck nuts. What is come to? The site. So someone is preserved way back machine. They just call this bizarre this serve the page. So he's taken it down. But someone preserve. Right. So he's just basically Sonian I'm assuming is the one who got their hands on this. It's actually framed it in their lobby. Yeah. Man, walks on mood. Oh, here's the truck. Nuts thing that finally right in the order. It should be. Inches. Different times. So the whole this whole page is dedicated to your nuts dot com. It has it has a picture of a very large bulls test testicles hang very low and under that it says hours, and besides that picture picture of a squirrel whose testicles are hanging down and under that it says there's. This has to stop. Quote, good afternoon. That's how you start a letter where you've got to pictures animals nuts on it. Good afternoon. Who admits may concern that's spiel right on websites. Good afternoon. Good afternoon. Unless of course, you're rating this at one of the other few times of day we have. The best way to start a letter or mail from now on every Email starts with good afternoon to what's good afternoon. I should mention that John is much older. But John is old and neither one of them are young guys. They're not anymore. Now, they're more like an aide insurance dead of a four. But they're not they're not anyone who like the internet's a foreign thing to the internet series of to even though they're making money. You'll see. Quote, good afternoon. And thank you for considering us. We are and have been the premium manufacturer and Catholic purveyor of bowls balls registered and big boy nuts trademark sense nineteen ninety nine exclamation port point therefore capitalized. We are the foremost truck balls company. The world. Also, a scroll that moves across the page says the same thing the entire page is dedicated to pointing out the differences and the prices between the two companies and how bulls balls legit. And all the nuts is not quote, this page has all the vital information navy to select the right company to provide you with the best product for the right price and hopefully good service in the process. They're nuts. I this is like he's a banker. Like, you're selling plastic nuts is this is also on his site that he did. So if you're on let's say, you're let's say you're part of the point zero three percent of the population that decides your trucks need gender definition. Yes. Okay. So you're part of that. So you go to one of the two sites where there's balls to. I was going to buy vagina. All right. That's a different one. Okay. So you're going to go to one of those. And while you're on it. He points out his competitor. Yes. So sold you're out of sight. You're like I'm gonna buy what's this different? The price that out. Also, you're just you just want to bite truck nuts. You don't wanna get into fucking? You're not looking for. Yeah. Exactly. You're not looking for like the Montague Capulet of testicles. So he's just got all this shit time people compare price comparison expl- explanations of quality differences that you going to say. Quote, compare sizes shapes colors prices ordering methods shipping guarantees and so on down at the bottom of the page is a blog with entries. And the latest post question, David and his brother Kenneth their business ethics as well as the quality of the testicles they sold. So David was furious. Sure. Yeah. Nobody look you can question David ball integrity. But Kenneth no no Ken now. Now, you're coming after me familiar Kenneth Kenneth. Okay. Kenneth has always thought about the bottom line of the ball business. Kenneth is like a Kennedy when it comes to nuts. I mean, this kid has integrity and you push the Kenneth. Quote, they're lying that has been their motive since they started to bad mouth of belittle, my company, and every term it doesn't surprise me in the least David's mad, so David drives from New Mexico to San Bernardino, California, Tombo, plastic we're both balls are made by chat. David comes at whole drive. He's just grumbling, by the way, most rational people get like an hour into that drive like doing I mean, my out of my mind chill out. He's like all the way. Bomo team in my balls mice. My walk in there that I'm the only place that sells the balls. You could put show me fucking d say look stupid face throw set of balls balls in his fucking mountain. I can't I can't do anything like that just kind of walk in their own the place own the marble. Yeah. I'll look a seventy six get Gatorade. Came into Trumbull, plastics. He was with a woman. So he's playing the part of a couple or just in shopping for plastic. You gotta go deep in your character. We live in Reno. Yeah. We just drove in me, and so feel here. Well, she's actually the one who wanted to get a set of the bull's eye a little strange as a man of the cloth. I work in the religious business. I don't wanna get too deep into it. Get my glasses on I need by focal weird vision. Very specific very true. David introduces himself to the floor manager. Hi, I'm Bazi Willis. Hey, how are you? At that moment, David realized he'd not come up with a fake name for himself. Mother. Doctor Dr balls. Bazi you have time. Come up with ideas. Just come up with Dave. Is berry. Donald specific to. JD Witherspoon, my friend. I'm ball investor Bazi. Just look like what's the New Jersey, hockey mascot? His name gritty just looked like gritty. Okay. Guys tech it EJ's this Christ. After introduce himself Bazi, David pointed at some testicles, hang on the wall and said, quote, I want to buy some of that balls. Chad came out to discuss the deal what for the testicles with Bazi Willis. And when he saw him he said, quote, people call you by another name Bazi, do they also call you David ham. Oh by the. You gotta owned by is. All right said Bazi, look, suddenly panicked. So call me buzz. Apparently couldn't believe it. Some annuity looked like well, also they probably went back there. They were like is buzzy name. Right. There's a crazy guy Fosse Fosse bear here. Nope. It's not fuzzy. That would also be weird. But he went even weirder. I probably met Fosse with balls Bazi the s that's right. Chad had David escorted out of the building. He wouldn't leave. I guess not wanna reporter question David about as a temp to buy testicles under a false name. David said, quote, have you ever heard of the term industrial espionage? Hey, hey, Bazi. You don't get to school us on espionage. What? This is a real neck and neck for who is crazier. I mean, this is just. Now when John heard about this industrial espionage episode, he made another public post on the bulls balls dot com website. Basically the Huffington Post of ninety nine. Everybody was going there seeing God he's got a new post. Let's see plots thicken quote. Can you believe it David ham manager of your nuts dot com came by our manufacturing and shipping facility Sam California's nobody's reading this and pretended to be customer? They probably got an alert when you read this. They were like someone's reading it. Somebody's actually reading. This is the saddest thing because the posts aren't all there. You have to either guy posting it. But you have to click on it to see it. So the way back machine didn't capture it's I couldn't read all of the blog posts that you put up on those balls dot com. Sure. But. It gets better. After John's post it kicked off bad reviews of bowls, balls dot com. Began appearing all over the internet. They tore bulls balls and new one well easy now, I don't know if you wanna put it like that and said bulls balls were price-fixing truck testicle market. Oh my God. Fifteen ninety nine I who like literally, it's just them. Right. It's only them. It's a game for two John. Tried to go tit for tat carrier with positive bulls balls posts, but the negative ones were far too many to overcome some of the posts were they coming from the Kremlin. Russia Russian troll farm. Quote, salary and Beeman are weak minded loosers ELO. Oh, they're losers. Interesting can't compete professionally or legitimately. E L Y so Beaman was John's web host guy. So he's dragged into this person is harmful. Don't buy from bulls balls dot com person is harmful alternately alternately. There are certainly a few websites that provide exemplary support and costs, for example, all dot com. Tuft shift bowls vehicle, bumper not are the same a Facebook post under Bazi Willis Oh bazi. Do you think he didn't? Remember that name? He said when he went into the that's very possible. I think that's highly possible blassie's back baby. So he signs up for Facebook on. Causey quest. Fuck is buzzing about the fuck we gotta make Bazi Willis shirt. So Facebook BUSTER name Bazi will start making comments on both balls Facebook page. Bozzi was relentless. They were better thing. You could have told me right now. They're starting to post by Bazi all over the internet when he asked about the post David said, quote that is salaries of via lies again, I should add that John salary. David ham, aren't the only two guys in the truck. Tesco business. There's also Wilson Kemp who's a retired school administrator from junior college in Florida troubling. The whole time. I was just thinking about balls. Quote. I was looking for something to keep me out of trouble off the street. What? It's the best world ever. It's he's like sister act, but with testicles. In two thousand and two he saw all the name of the bad crowd. Guys, selling his truck nuts. Business on EBay. It was called truck nuts with z. And he bought it. We have your nuts now truck. But for some reason kept got Kemp got a total pass from John David on the truck. Nuts battle. It's probably because he does not claim to be the inventor of truck testicles anywhere on his website. Okay. Just inspired by them. That's right. Inspired by real nuts. So the animosity between David John was all about who claimed the inventor the two men couldn't let the other guy had the last word. Sure. Blogs began to appear with the names bows? Balls info trust nuts falls. Is this Alex Alex Jones version? And reporters six six six. What that is. That is serious. Hello from fire times. I have a question. The portal the hill have bowls dangling from. All the blogs were said to be written by an anonymous reporter who was apparently quite anti bowls balls while at the same time being very pro your nuts. Who's who? Do you think? It was. Okay me. Neither. All the posts were just pasted and copied from blog to blog. Lisi this just all caused John to get more and more into the online war and Chad started taking over dealing with day-to-day operations of bowls balls. Okay. So at this point. Remember, the both John's especially older, but but he is now being so consumed by guy just fucking with him everywhere. He's literally no longer taking care of business, which is boss. It's sad until you remember what the businesses, and then it's totally crazy again. Feel bad for that. No. No. No. No. No. I don't what am I talking about. Chad, quote, he did share with me many many times that he was having a lot of issues. It was contacting attorney and everything else to try and get a lot of that stuff. Negated wonder if you want complaints board dot com was made by bumper nuts dot com. Title. The bulls balls truck not slash price-fixing fraud. Quote, this guy owns over thirty websites selling the same thing is illegally fixing prices and canceling dealers discount. He had a free giveaway that I was the first to request once he got my personal information. He said, I didn't see I didn't qualify. He uses arbitrary discrimination to defraud, homey pleases. This guy is dangerous. Who this guy who's this person? This is this is David, okay. Do not buy from both balls dot com. He then recommended by from all the nuts dot com. John responded to the review by saying. This was either David or Kenneth that it made it imagine seeing that review and seeing the the comment below it. I know this was either you David or that's that company despair. Oh, this is delicious. They have been posting the militias lies about myself, my company for a long time. They're rude. Crude liars and sociopaths he used them violating trademark selling inferior. How posting all over the internet, including Amazon, you're a deadbeat dot com. Complaints dot com. My three cents dot com and many others. How do you accuse someone of making shitty nuts for a truck? Products inadequate. Kemps when really into the process, and it's actually quite complicated. Okay. Especially the camouflage ones that was a big. You can't fight them. Epi, set them down for a minute nuts here. Swear to God, they were right there at the end of the post John posted the common features of sociopaths that he copied and pasted from pretend encyclopedia. Then some guy an anonymous gentleman who described himself as being a regular customer of blues balls for years Hopton and gave a glowing review pretty deep into how he had checked out. All the nuts dot com and said they were legally using trademark. Hey, sorry, gentlemen. I think I'm just going to jump in here. Real quick having to be I have a long time nut buyer. Was a truck. There was no fraudulent nuts that are infringing copyright when I see him. The post went super indepth that how bad all the nuts was sure. It's clearly John. Quote. So anyway, I went to pose bulls balls. Let me get back on track with my comment, and ordered my balls and thinking about it for a couple of days, my buddy, and I decided to let people know about this bait and switch operation at all the nuts dot com. Who's this buddy? Agree. We need to say something keep on truckin be careful out there gave out there from not John nine one one John made more posts about a both and make impose more post about them being sociopaths. Basically, it's two older guys have no idea how internet works and they're having a flame more over truck nuts. Chuck truck nuts bragging rights like they're also having an insane fight on another site called the ripoff report dot com. Got it becoming early January two thousand nine and the title was complaint report, those balls John Salar, John Beaman of Williams Arizona, John was accused of defamation fraud and criminal impersonation. This their biggest online war a forty seven post seventeen thousand word fight. Oh my God. No. But he is watching. And all their doings acting like it's four customers. And nobody is watching those are the best ones. And now that's called Facebook. So they post in their own names. But also post with fake names pretty obvious there from them to be fair. They're totally losing it. Totally right. They both referred to themselves with the real name. I'll posting someone else's name. Sometimes they completely forget their writing under another character's name responding comment. Another that's Loppy during the exchange ham calls, John Johnny boy and John calls ham and his brother the unscrupulous ham gang. Solid, solid solid. John Fogerty band. The post included phone numbers emails links which the site deleted is they were put up they posted as lawyers and cited criminal statutes the other violated. I've a ball voyeur. Let me just throw it a legal headed ring very quickly. David listed, six felonies and two misdemeanors. John had committed with his truck test, the people vs scrotum. Good lord. And he actually cited the laws. They're breaking. Sure. John claimed David brother called a blue bowls balls and made threats to employee's. And they both indicated the law was coming down on the other one pretty hard at one point two. All was John wrote quote. I just read an article in the latest Reader's Digest last night. Oh my God. Oh my God. Okay. That really brought it home. As what these brothers are like and what they are doing the activties. They're doing is happening all over the web to other innocent victims like myself. So he learned about troll Reader's Digest was covering this topic. Bullying digest because old people over the internet timer like. Yeah. Reader's Digest is covering the internet. It's just to be like don't send prince's money. John called the ham brothers sociopaths again. And again brothers is a great name. And again pasted the encyclopedia article about sociopaths one contemptuous of those who seek to understand them to does not perceived anything wrong with them three or four -tarian. Four secretive paranoid. Just went on and six post links. He called Kenneth the vicious one. Yeah. Then on that first sight, I was talking about the first what site for site complaints board dot com on February eighth two thousand nine a random guy posted. And as far as I can tell all of their fights. This is the first individual who is not one of them. Was it just some guy who wrote I? The guy's name was listed as no longer a truck. Not buyer. They aided the market quote boy. Absolutely the right person in a number of ways. Boy, you guys take the fun out of it. I mean, I saw some on a truck and couldn't wait to Google the site that sells them, and I find all this crap. Oh, yes. Ernest truck that buyer turned off by the feud of bowls. Both of you should realize that your products. No matter who makes them are supposed to be funny. Neither of you are worthy of my purchase. Both companies or individuals should be ashamed of yourselves. Hang that on your truck. I think it's safe to say that's not either one of them. Hang on your truck. A couple hours later. John responded quote. Hey. Dr. John responded. I completely agree with the direct above posting. John the seller, owner of polls balls dot com. After a couple of years. It seems John may have realized this wasn't the best way to go to days later on that epic battle site. Forty seven posts John posted, quote, all of the above posts from the unscrupulous ham gang are malicious lies. They should have received letters from my attorneys by now, it is out of my hands. There will be no more posts from myself. And then John was done. A man with reason the hero known as no longer a truck. Nut buyer. He better be here tonight. Ended the war or the simple posts calling out testicle sanity. John Salar walked away from the online war and back to just selling testicles for trucks has got intended. David ham didn't respond which was odd that he didn't respond to that lasts fart calling him militias liars ham gang, but he did continue in other places, but just not what the same fury and then the attacks slowly dwindled off because John was not responding fun. But then something happened on may eight two thousand nine okay. Because John posted a letter from his attorney that have been sent to David Kenneth ham. The letter was dated the day after that guy made that wow that pose hit John's heart. It was a cease and desist letter. Okay. For my law firm, and it stated to avoid a lawsuit David delete references to bulls balls from his website, stop using bulls. Balls info at g mail, the official bulls ball's website dot com. Email where people could be like, hey. Was looking to get a set of balls where do I go? Fuck this company. We suck over here. We're messing everything of looking bulls. Balls info. Balls. We're everyone's over here just drink, and there's maybe another company go here, blah, blah, blah, blah, Wasi. Also, the bulls balls dot com and the bulls balls dot com and finally stop posting derogatory and defamatory statements on the internet. So that's why Dave that's why David didn't respond John made. Right. Yeah. Desist. The next right? So after after John put up the lawyer's letter David responded to weeks later with more of the same. It's just all the same kind of rambling China, but it was over the reviews in blogs, eventually stopped both sides continued to sell truck mounts pace. Thank you in July two thousand eleven in Bonn due South Carolina police department chief Franko Fuda saw a dodge truck parked outside comedian store with a pair of red truck. Testicles hanging off the rear. Okay. He stopped. Wait, if the woman to come out who owned the car truck, and then he find her her name was Jan Thais? She was sixty seven years old. Find her four hundred forty five dollars. The crime of having an obscene bumper sticker. So it's not uppers thicker. Well, there's there's like a law, South Carolina where you can't have it. I've seen on the back of your car. Under South Carolina state law. Something is decent quote when it describes in an offensive way as Termine by contemporary community standards, sexual acts extra Tori functions or parts of the human body. That's for minded. Yeah. But before before she was able to go and pay the fine chief Fuda requested there'd be a jury trial. What? So the chief wanted it to be a big thing in the community. He wants to make a point of this fucking six or seven year old ball woman. Just driving. Like the ball woman. He said he wanted the community to have their say, but the trial was delayed because the jury pool day of the trial was too small. And then the next the next trial date was set. And then that jury pool is too small. And then the next trial date was said in that jury posed small food, quote sooner or later, this trial's gonna play out Justice will be served Justice will be served food. It was also going to be the prosecutor what quote, Geno, had finally do that thing where he calls himself to the stand that drink comedic set pace. I couldn't believe what I saw no more questions, but I'd like to cut them in the witness something so incredibly. Thank you. It's been great to sit in the witness area. Thank you. Everybody. Thinks is on the side of the law. One. After the third delay food is quote genitalia is offensive Jesus Christ. We get it. Does this guy not have balls? Feels like that's the only way to take this seriously as a father would want my daughter looking at it. I mean, fair, okay. Point counter, it's daughters. Twenty four. I hate to be the one to break it to them. But she's seen them. No new trial date was set. They continue to do business and. What's happening here? Sure. David put up a no. David I want to welcome you to your nuts dot com where we feature Rini novelty testicles. We featured the original nuts on the net, which you'll find here is all kinds of fun stuff for your right? Your truck your car. What now me and my friends we're going to tell you all about this today. And I think I'd like to do like to bring in Ed and what he's going to do. He's going to tell you all about the monster truck nuts. Go steal none of his thunder. But these are the biggest nuts around. Here's. Folks. My name is gonna show you the monster. Now. Most of you are familiar with the aid incised, you're nuts. He's the original nuts on the net. The ones that started at all. Unfortunately, they just didn't have it for the lifted trucks. So david. In developing the sixteen inch. Oh my God. So so let me just say Dave explain how big those people there. Go from his head done. It was chest. It's like if if you catch a fish that size you mount. So let's just say that that Virginia legislator who yelled how big will. They get. Well, he was right. He was right. That lunatic was right. My God is that a big set of nuts? So John was getting old and his health was failing and his web host. I hope he needs new nuts. If you needed a ball transplant his web host died Beeman died sometime around then and John sold bulls balls to Chad tumble a year later John salary died in sleep on March tenth two thousand fourteen with this dog, dude or by side. It's the best fucking name dog, dude. Or I cannot. David ham, read about the deaths. Quote, I read that both is web guy in salaried passed away. And I thought wow, they're both dead. That's amazing. Oh. Tough eulogy. So maybe the sociopath thing was right. Yeah. That's amazing. He called Chad who called John's family to find out what happened and then Chad found out that no one in the family was going to take duty. So Chad drove from California to AirAsia and brought her home. Something weird. I don't know what kind of guy. John was looked up bitch Ray area in the local Williams. Arizona paper. It's literally just two lines. John died in his sleep with dude. Or by side. He'll be prayers and it's just like. Oh, you're not sure what to say. To summarize. I know what it's your family member. You'd want to talk about bowls ball's gonna talk about the nice guy guy was born. He was ten died last week. He was buried with balls. Vice reporter MAC lab Meru discovered the online battle no one seem to care about in two thousand fifteen and he contacted David ham when he asked him if he wrote the blogs, David chuckled angrily and said quote. He said, quote, I'm sure I wrote several of them David ham continues to sell truck nuts as does Chad tumble. The South Carolina law against obscene bumper stickers currently being challenged by South Carolina, constitutional lawyer, South Carolina is also home to the Gamecocks. That's the truck nuts war. Not not what I thought would happen. A lot of theory. But like social the way we were supposed to be made is that we were living village in dude comes rolling in. And he's like, hey, guys. No, ma'am from that place. One hundred the other village hundred miles away we attacked people are dead. It's really fucked up. And then you sit right. You talk about it for a couple of months. But there's so much information coming from the internet that it just like, social media and everything else. Like this broke John's brain for two. Yeah. It breaks your brain. When it's information isn't supposed to come at you like this. And so he just fucking lost. And people. I mean happens to me it happens to tons of people like you just lose your fucking shit on someone when you've lost on Twitter. Know look. Jen kirkman. But. So I just think that I mean, he's a good example walkaway. Yeah. Walkaway because it doesn't matter what someone says online. You don't know that person doesn't fucking matter. Everybody's a tough guy to everybody's tough ship. Also, get some truck nuts truck nuts, but don't buy from all your nuts dot com. No. Well, I mean, actually kind of an awkward announcement. But we might as well make it. If you guys go to dollop, balls dot com, and it's balls with z z we are selling not novelty kind of funds actual versions of our balls. And molds made we had what we had the most years ago. Unrelated was for another prime that we were like, hey, let's actually use these now for this. We're going to podcast. Yeah. Yeah. But not tell anyone that are nuts out. Anyway, it's a long story that doesn't have a good ending. But. We do not sign balls, sir. To answer your question. We don't sign. Yeah. I guess though, legally you could have us if you had balls hanging from your car because we do sign cars, and so signed the ball's gonna be thing. Now, we'll bring us balls to sign. Yes. I hope not one hundred percent. There's no way we're not getting truck nuts to sign now. No way. No way. No way or or a boozy Willis shirt that I'm sorry. Bazi willis. Policy will. It's dynamite. That is definitely going to be the name. I'm using from an ex grub hub order. All right, guys. Thank you so much for coming. We appreciate a Phoenix, Shirley. Serve beer, give someone a beer who wants a beer.

David John David David bulls David ham Dave Chad reporter David Kenneth Kenneth Bazi Willis Brooklyn Barry Goldwater Arizona squarespace Phoenix US canada John mccain Maryland California
The somewhat fractured state of American conservatism

The Ezra Klein Show

1:00:47 hr | 1 year ago

The somewhat fractured state of American conservatism

"Trump has risen to Reagan's level in the eyes of many conservatives. And I know that might stunned the let the audience, but if Trump wins reelection he will be at the same level as Reagan. I think in the minds of a lot of Republicans. Hello. And welcome to the Ezra Klein show on the FOX media podcast network. I am Jane coast. I am senior politics reporter with a focus on conservatism and the GOP and today, I have a very interesting conversation with Matthew continuity. He is editor in chief of the Washington free beacon, a conservative publication based in DC. He is very thoughtful and knowledgeable about the intellectual history that has provided the backbone of the conservative movement, as we know it we talked about Ronald Reagan, Donald Trump, the beginnings of the new right? What Neo conservatism was is. And isn't and a host of other subjects, and I thought it was a really interesting and informative conversation as always you can Email the show at as recline show at vox dot com. And without further ado here is Matthew continuity, Matthew, any welcome to the podcast, first and foremost, can you tell our? Audience a little bit about yourself, and the research you're doing on the history of intellectual conservatism. Sure well on the editor of the Washington free beacon. It's a conservative online newspaper. We founded in twenty twelve before that I was a writer and editor for the weekly standard magazine now defunct, but I had done that since I graduated from Columbia in two thousand and three and I found that I had a special characteristic while I was at the weekly standard. I was the only member of the staff who had read every issue of the weekly standard because they had these beautiful set of bound volumes and trying to familiarize myself with my craft. I went through them all and thus developed an interest in the history of the conservative intellectual movement, which is really now in its I guess if you dated with the publication in America of the road to serfdom in forty four forty five it's now almost seventy seventy five years old. So you. Ticket from the road to serfdom. I think a lot of people when you think about a figure say like William F, Buckley, they dated to God. And man at Yale. So it's interesting that you talked about you started at the weekly standard. Were you collegiate network fellow? I was yes. It's a funny thing at Columbia. We didn't have a collegiate network paper in the clear network of courses in network of conservative campus papers, so infect the the main paper at Columbia, the Columbia spectator was affiliated with the collegiate network, and that's how I became plugged into that organization. I also contributed to their national magazine, which was called campus magazine, and so CNN very generously funded me for my first year at the weekly standard and a little bit before that expired. I was promoted or hired permanently on the staff. So I was also a collegiate network fellow could we can have the secret handshake now. Yes, exactly. And the reason why. I bring this up is that something that I think for a lot of folks observing conservatism and the world of conservatism from outside. It's bound re's is that our experience of being kind of brought into via the cloud network and a lot of other organizations being brought into the conservative movement via a very distinct recruitment process is not that unusual, and I've been talking a lot this week about conservatism as I talk a lot about conservatism all the time every day for my entire life. And that conservatism, I think in many ways is a movement. It's a movement. It's not just a set of ideas or an ideology, it is a movement. Can you talk about how the ideology of conservatism and the movement of conservatism relate to one another? Well, that's a great question. One thing. My studies in reading. Has shown me is that it's very difficult to speak of conservatism is just a minute monolithic ideology. In fact, from the very beginning. There have been competing definitions of what a conservative is or what he or she believes in a lot of these questions were kind of solved by the foundation of national review in November nineteen fifty five and for many decades national review was it like to say the only game in town in terms of kind of propagating or or communicating what a conservative consensus was that. Clearly is no longer the case, but the conservative movement, the political expression of some of these ideas, really kind of came into being shortly after the foundation of national review, I kind of dated to nineteen sixty which was the organization of young Americans for freedom and the publication of their founding charter the sheriff. Statement. Sharon, Connecticut is where it was signed on the front lawn of Bill Buckley's family home where he grew up and that same year nineteen sixty sees the publication of Barry Goldwater, conscience of a conservative and so- Goldwater becomes really the central political figure of conservatism at that time, he inherits the title from the deceased of Senator Robert Taft, and he's the one who tells the convention in nineteen sixty let's grow up conservatives and eventually Winston, I'm Asian night. If four years later, so it's interestingly bring up Goldwater because I think Goldwater was such a defining figure within the conservative movement, despite the fact that he lost tremendously bad late nineteen sixty four. And there are a couple of reasons for this one. I think for you. I write a lot about African-American conservatives, and I think for a lot of black conservatives who attended the nineteen sixty four Republican national convention and go. Goldwater basically, making a states rights argument against civil rights legislation and the experiences of say legends. Like Jackie Robinson, who has attended the nineteen sixty four Republican national convention and had people trying to start fights with him, which seems almost side note, like a bad thing to attempt to do as he was a very large very strong legendary baseball player, and it's interesting also the Goldwater legacy continues. I wrote a piece this week about CPAC and the first CPAC in nine hundred seventy four is a group of conservatives were very upset at Richard Nixon, not just because of Watergate, but because he's not adequately conservative. They wanted. Ronald Reagan this whole time Ronald Reagan, you know, they'd wanted him to run in sixty eight they'd wanted him to run in seventy two. That's not what happened. Can you talk a little bit about gold waters position -ality in the movement? Because I think that now as we observe conservatism. I think a lot of people like what happened to the Purdy of Rana? Reagan what happened to kind of that legacy? But for older conservatives, they weren't thinking they were looking to Reagan as someone of one of their peers, but they were looking, you know, we want to be the party of Barry, Goldwater know, the joke is that Goldwater lost the sixty four election, but it took sixteen years to count the votes in so gold waters defeat in sixty four in a way was a harbinger or unnecessary loss to pave the way for Reagan's victory in one thousand nine hundred eighty Goldwater voted against the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four is a burden that conservatism in America's had to carry ever since. It's a fraught decision on his part. Actually, it was one title the public accommodations title that he objected to then and that led to his vote against it later in his life said how much he regretted that decision. But there's no question that even as you say at the at the moment of the convention his position there. Which really ran against the civil rights tradition in the Republican party was a defining and contested moment Goldwater later in his life became more libertarian, right? Then he was talking a lot about gay people in the military when he would serve, you know, living in Arizona in the early nineteen nineties became a cultural libertarian he had always been kind of an economic one. But he was a very kind of cantankerous person charming in his way. And but I think by the end of his life. He had kind of alienated himself from the conservative movement at that point in late eighties nineties, which had taken on a very socially conservative even religious cast. And so by the time of his death in nineteen ninety eight conservatives had various views of him, even though they they agreed that he was really kind of the one of the central political. Figures next to Reagan, really, the most important political figure in American conservatism up until that point there seems to be a quest towards kind of a pure ideal of conservatism, which leads it's up to purely spirals, I'm gonna read you a quote when Weymouth Beckley began national view part of some of his efforts were based on kind of not justifying what conservatism is but defining what conservatism is not so part of that involved frowning upon Alabama governor George Wallace for being an obstinate segregationists, though, Buckley's own racial past is questionable part of that was discussing an rand who he thought it was an overly bellicose atheist and part of that was also talking about the John Birch society, which was among the more paranoid right-leaning organizations of its time and still continues to be today and when national review repudiated a John Birch society one of Buckley's letters that he received. I've always believed you to be a true conservative. However since you've seen categorically to accept most of the left wing programs. I'm beginning to doubt, your sincerity. And it seems to me that as conservatives debate with one another about the one true conservatism, the one true faith, so to speak. It seems to be that even while we're having starting to have you know, the influence of conservative populism. They're still this overarching drive to be more conservative or to find whatever is truly conservative or pure conservatism. You know, you saw that with Mitt Romney, go into CPAC in two thousand twelve and describing himself as being severely conservative to which, you know, Rush Limbaugh and a bunch of folks kind of conservative media were like, no, you're not we remember when you were in Massachusetts doing obviously, the drive for purity in movements is not uncommon. But it seems to be a very specific type of coal to purity that happens within conservatism on one. Level. It's a call to purity. Which as you say does happen in all movements and often happened in communist movements in in America. You know, the sectarianism of the Marxist socialist movement in America's their whole volumes written about it. So that is common to movements in general, the sense that will you don't agree with me on everything you need to start your own group. Irving Kristol had a line. He liked to say, which is can't split rotten wood, which is that these disagreements and even divisions represent lie vitality of the movement. But I also think it stems from something deeper which relates to my to your first question on our first discussion, which is no one really knows what conservatism is. Yes. And from the very beginning there were a lot of arguments, in fact, Frederick Hayek. So I mentioned how I kind of dated was following my tutor, George H nationalist by data with the publication of road to serfdom. But later after encountering some of the new conservatives such as Russell, Kirk Hayek writes an essay why I'm not a conservative. And so is the classical liberalism represented by Hayek. And von these us and Milton Friedman, really conservatives. Well, Buckley thought so because I have a quote in my note. From nineteen seventy-one. We're Buckley says that my conservatism is the conservatism of the two most recent or other nineteen seventy seven maybe two most recent Nobel laureates, Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman. So that suggests much more classically liberal conservatism is it the social conservatism that really came into being in the nineteen seventies against the social policies of the expanding welfare state, well, Neo conservatives while being on the side of social conservatives in regards to social policies affecting family and religion were much more comfortable with the welfare state in principle as a means of providing public goods such as pensions unemployment insurance even health insurance in the case of ring, crystal. So they're these types of arguments, we brought up a sixty four in the Civil Rights Act, one of the most important conservative thinkers, Harry Jaafar who helped right? Barry, Goldwater is nominating speech. Also was an intense believer in the equality clause of the declaration of independence in supported the sixty four civil rights acts and Brent Bozell who was Buckley's brother-in-law famously took issue with Buckley's defense infamous and rightly so defensive segregation ridden a Nash review nineteen fifty seven. So there are all these contested issues there there is always debates within the conservative movement. There was for many years a column in national review called the open question where all of these various thinkers could kind of Duke it out the question, then arises, which is what held them together. And I think fundamentally it was an opposition to communism abroad, and then to a sort of intrusive, liberalism at home. But even there they had people who were not part of the say conservative. Consensus is represented by national review. Who were who were criticizing them on those grounds as well. I'm music colleges. Nate sloan. I'm songwriter. Charlie. Harding. We're the hosts of switched on pop the podcast where Charlie and I breakdown pop hits to reveal how the music works. And why it matters. It's our job to help you find those hob moments within the music, whether you're a pop fanatic or skeptic, a teenager or an octogenarian non musician or professional composer every music lover. Will discover something you're opening in switched on pop. Yeah. And we think you'll have a lot of fun with us because you're going to get to hear from amazing guests musicians song writers producers in journalists. Listen to switched on pop. Every week starting in March on the apple podcast app or wherever you get your podcasts. Let's shift forward a little bit. Because I think that something for people who have been observing conservatives. Moore thinking about conservatism is the decree to which new conservatism has I don't I'm not sure if it was really in favour, exactly. But how much other conservatives have taken issue to new conservatives and so to speak Neo cons? And I think that that is something that in my view really began to arise with the shifting perception of the Iraq war specifically you start seeing this in two thousand five two thousand six not just coming from folks on the left us. I think people on the left had been long calling Bill Kristol and others who they viewed as calling for this war as being warmongers so to speak. But then you start seeing it from conservatives. And obviously there have been branch. Of conservatism, you paleo conservatives and others who have long spoken out against American intervention overseas. But the distaste for which much of the modern conservative movement, and specifically kind of Trumpian conservatives have from Neo cons is really stark in somewhat overwhelming. So I I'd love you to talk a little bit about Neo conservatism. Because I you know, there's that famous quote that Neo a new conservative is a liberal who's been robbed by reality and new conservatism in some ways began with a lot of folks thought of themselves being liberals, but then saw the events of the late nineteen sixty s and early nineteen seventy s and just kind of had this view that you liberalism had left them behind in a sense. So I love you to talk a little bit more about Neo conservatism. And how new conservatism has been positioned now, especially it seems to be an unpopular line of thoughts or speak. Right. We'll just do this with. Conservatism we need to start breaking down. What we mean? When we talk about Neo conservatives the way, I kind of categorize it is by looking at the three chief Neo conservative publications and each of them represents a different interational indeed, in some cases, a different generation of Neo conservatism. And so let's start at the beginning. And that is with public interest. Which was the magazine co founded by Irving Kristol and Daniel bell in nineteen sixty five. It was a quarterly that published until two thousand and five. This is the original Neo conservative publication bell crystal, and they're a friend contributor and later co editor with crystal Nathan Glazer whose recently deceased, we're actually ex communists. They're trotskyists. We're not Stalin us, but they were Trotskyites in college. And then later moved into type of critical liberalism, which eventually led them to be extremely skeptical of the government interventions. Of Lyndon Johnson's great society programs, and so the public interest represented a very a skeptical empirical and essentially merely arrest approach to public policy that is bell, crystal and Glazer and another friend and contributor in later. Senator. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, were not as I mentioned earlier against the welfare state per se. They felt though that the great society and subsequent liberal programs were not helping we're not achieving the desired results, not helping the people that these programs were trying to help and so- issue after issue of the public interest was devoted to kind of an analyzing these social policies and seeing where they went wrong it later become became much more interested in questions of character. And what they found was so much of the success of public policy dependent on the character of individuals affected by it. And then you had to look at how. Do we shape character? And that comes down to really the pre political institutions of family religion neighborhood. So that's neo-conservatism one and that Neo conservatism had nothing to do with foreign policy infect foreign policy was banned from its pages because of the editors had such varying opinions regarding what was then the most important foreign policy issues of Warren Vietnam over there. There's what we might call Neo conservatism to and that's represented by the publication commentary founded in nineteen forty five and still ongoing today. I write a monthly column for it appears monthly so I guess I read a com for commentaries longtime editor Norman pot hordes. He was ten years younger than crystal crystal born nineteen twenty pot hordes born in nineteen thirty. So he's younger he went to Columbia University where his mentor was the literary critic Leonard mile trilling pot horse was never a Marxist or communist, who's just. Liberal in the trilling mold and more of a literary critic he becomes editor in nineteen sixty. When he finds basically in the beginning in the nineteen seventies is a deep aversion to basically liberal and radical critiques of the Vietnam war in his view, these critiques assumed the character of anti-americanism and this repulsed him and so on the foreign policy. There horrid started basically advocating for more idealistic American foreign policy, but also one that had serious weight to it in terms of power politics. America's defense expenditures, America, should not come home in the words of George McGovern and Neo conservatism to was really a protest against McGovern ISM in its foreign policy dimension. But also in its domestic dimension, which was basically encapsulated what was called. The new politics of the student rebellion and counterculture. So pot Hornets became a neoconservative one might say by Vietnam abroad and radicalism abroad. But also the counterculture at home and this led to a basically support from Ronald Reagan in nineteen eighty because Reagan to the commentary crowd represented a much more fulsome American foreign policy and one that was going to not only try to contain the Soviets, but also push them back and eventually defeat them. Finally, I know gone on for awhile. But finally, there's Neo conservatism three, which is one the your. I think referring to in your question, and that's the Neo conservatism represented by the weekly standard magazine, edited by Bill Kristol until twenty sixteen and then edited by Stephen of Hayes for its last few years, basically published between. September nineteen ninety five and December twenty eighteen what's funny about it is that at the time that the the standard was founded Neo. Conservatism was kind of considered passe because Irving Kristol bills, dad and Norman pot Hauritz had more or less just become regular conservatives. And in fact, pot hearts rights in nineteen ninety six an essay called Neo conservatism eulogy saying all that we stood for basically the historical conditions that led us to our political of us have dissipated, and we are more just less been incorporated into the conservative mainstream, such as it was what happens very quickly though is that Bill Kristol and his kind of co author and of influential contributing editor to the standard, Robert Kagan become associated with foreign policy that they describe as Neo Reaganite, which basically is a foreign policy of interventionism in the service of American ideals into mockery, democracy promotion. They they have referenced to. Benign his Yemeni in one of the of fundamental essays. They wrote describing their position, and this is the form of Neo conservatism that becomes associated with the Iraq war of two thousand and three and that's the Neo conservatism of that Donald Trump really campaigned against the interventionism that he campaigned against in two thousand sixteen in repudiated. And what's funny is that the crystal Kagan position on the Iraq war in two thousand three wasn't fact, the consensus view of the American foreign policy community, and and the Republican party, George W Bush who actually launched the war was not a Neo conservative of any ration-. So this was a much more conventional opinion in two thousand three in the aftermath of the September eleventh attacks of two thousand one then I think is remembered today at the moment, as you say, the weekly standard doesn't exist. And crystal is the most prominent. Int never-trumper. And so they were they exist probably on the margins of the conservative movement and the Republican party. But so much depends. I think on whether Donald Trump is reelected to the future of this version of of Neo conservatism. It is very possible. In fact, likely that there will be a fourth neoconservative him because just the way politics works. People changed their views over time and people might start on the left and the right and others might start on the right and up on the left. So I think it's I'm glad you brought up on George W Bush and the Iraq war because a bunch of people have been talking about how you know at CPAC, and at other places, it appears as if the George W Bush administration has been memory hold so to speak. You saw people talking about Trump being the most pro-life Republican president we've had which made a lot of I take Dave Weigel said on Twitter, you know, like what the hell happened for those? Eight years of the Bush administration. And I think that that really gets to something about how the Bush administration for many people who think of themselves being conservatives, but kind of the more Trumpian ilk of conservatives, the Bush administration has become in some ways part of even though George W Bush's. You say was not an Yukon the Bush administration has become of part of Neo con parlance that that was part and parcel with new conservatism. And I've written before I wrote a piece a couple of years ago for the New York Times on the term conservative and one something I I've noticed is that Tucker Carlson wrote in politico early in two thousand sixteen that Republican voters seem to know a lot about Trump more than the people who run their party. They know he isn't a conventional ideological conservative. They seem relieved and I wanted to ask you how much of the support for Trump from people who think of themselves as being conservative was in. Some way a reaction to the Republican party apparatus, and what they may view of the that apparatus is support for the Bush administration's foreign policy and kind of this new conservative ideal. Because it seemed to me that a lot of people who are very supportive of Trump how much they strongly dislike many members of the Republican party is because it seems as if the Republican party's base and the Republican parties kind of thought leader, so to speak seem to have a massive disconnect that was clearly a revealed in two thousand sixteen in what happened there, I think so much depends on how the public views the success or failure of a given presidency. Ronald Reagan was viewed as successful president. Indeed. Even for a time. It was just by Republicans and conservatives, but by the moment where you have Barack Obama no eight talking about how he. Some ways wanted to emulate Reagan's influence over the course of politics. You can see that even Reagan's critics recognized his successes in some ways. So Reagan was viewed as a success. Indeed. He is many ways George H W Bush's election in nineteen eighty eight is considered the third term of Ronald Reagan M, George W Bush. I would say at the moment is viewed as a as a failure. And I think that that view is not only limited to his liberal critics who were fierce of threat his presidency, but also increasingly many conservatives as well as Republican voters. This is a presidency who second term in particular between two thousand five and two thousand nine with the bama's. Inauguration was just one crisis after another and in some ways Bush's presidency irritated various segments of conservatism. If you had been a. Say going back to Hayek, a more classically liberal limited government conservative. You were upset about the rise in government spending under the Bush administration. If you were a religious conservatives true, you would have liked plenty of George Bush's policies. You would have liked the way he discussed religion in the public sphere? You would have liked his personal comportment, but you would have maybe gone become a little distrustful of him beginning in two thousand and four when he only reluctantly in late in the campaign back to the federal marriage amendment. This would be the constitutional amendment forbidding same sex marriage and then in two thousand five he nominates Harriet Myers to the supreme court you become very suspicious of him. Then so you begin to have some doubts about him. If you're a foreign policy conservative. You're probably going to have criticisms of him. Mm-hmm. Remember, the Republican party traditionally has been associated with realism in foreign affairs and actually a a reluctance to engage in over overseas a conflict. So there are plenty of conservatives and Republicans who are skeptical of the Iraq intervention, but support it because of the existence of the time, and then when the intervention became bogged down in counter-insurgency, there were Republicans and conservatives and Neo conservatives who were critical of the conduct of the war. Finally, you know, it also if you're limited government type you'd be upset of over the response to the financial crisis in the bailouts. And then to if you're a populist conservative if you really growing out of the new right tradition of the nineteen seventies. You're going to be upset at George W Bush's two attempts at comprehensive immigration form in his second term. As well as his kind of free trade policies, the central American Free Trade act as well his push for the Dubai ports deal. So I'd say by the time that George W left office he had alienated himself from many people within the Republican party. Let's not forget one reason that the current president's approval ratings remain within that band in the mid to low forties. It's because he he retains strong approval among the Republican party. He has an alienated Republican voters in the in the same way that George W had done by the by the end of his second term. And I think that it's something to be said about when I when I read about conservatism, there are a lot of people who respond to me with kind of like, okay. You know, you're talking about this ideological conservatism. You're talking about the ideas that people are discussing on arguing about, but what are they doing on the ground? And what are the what are base conservatives thinking? And I think we started to see this. Sation taking that turn when we talk about populism. And I know you brought it become the new right, but I wanna read Br. Paragraph from Rostov at his near Trump's calling of talking about the era of limited government is over for years now conservative critics and sociologists and intellectuals have been acknowledging that the answer is might be no that the country's once rich associational, and civic and religious life is declining and dissolving that corporate America embraces conservative slogans to keep taxes low in unions week, but otherwise seems post patriotic and performance deadly woke that the silent majority of hardworking pious culturally conservative, blue collar families is now essentially defunct he's talking about the kind of the rise of populism and the Tucker Carlson a bunch of other folks on the right having these conversations about like, maybe the government should be doing more. Maybe the what is the purpose of government? Maybe it should be intervening to make family life specifically easier for quote, unquote, normal Americans, and I will leave it up to others to decide what some mean by normal Americans. But I think about CPAC a lot is kind of you know, the base. Message to the world of conservative conservatism. And you know, we've got we've shifted from time at which Ron Paul deeply libertarian former presidential candidate won multiple straw polls at CPAC to be to CPAC being a place where one, you know, everyone generally focused on Trump, but where this populist messaging is much more popular. And I kind of want you to take us back a little bit to kind of the new right of nineteen seventies seventy s but then this emergence of populism and kind of populist attitudes. It seems to be a direct rebuke of not just the Bush administration, but kind of elite conservatism, right? I mean, just in terms of the Bush administration one would say that it was not necessarily a small government administration. So if you're rebuking the Bush administration, you might want to be a small government type, of course at this. Really? I think the shift that Ross is describing in some ways from the tea party conservatism, which kind of. Talked about the tenth amendment talked about limited government state's rights against federal power talked about shrinking government and such. And now of now is embraced Donald Trump. Who is you know, he he wants to he's the budgets. He has submitted cut spending. They're just not going to be enacted into law. What I think reeling of the tea party was from those protests. You know, this idea that was mocked and times by the press, which was that sign that one tea party or held up saying keep your hands off my Medicare. This reveals there, even in these limited government movements. There's a reluctance to take on the core institutions of the welfare state, and this is a long running thing in American politics. I think it's George will who who likes to say that Americans are Restorick -ly jeffersonian, but operationally Tony we like to talk about limited government. But at the end of the day, we won't we want our benefits, and we like things pretty much the way they are were small seat conservative. We don't wanna see radical change the new right movement in the nineteen seventies. Which I think is connected. A lot to the Trump movement really came out from exactly that. A rebellion against government intervention in family life in in the most private decisions involving contraceptives reproduction where you wear your kids go to school. And then, of course, a sense of violated personal security that came with the rise in crime during the decade, you know, consumption of drugs among the youth, the new right leaders like Phyllis schlafly, Richard vicgory poetic, and then theorists such as Kevin Phillips and Patrick Buchanan were able to associate all of these things with federal government intervention and severe to direct that protest against the federal government in many ways this strain of populism a predates the nineteen seventies. You can see it in this port for Joseph McCarthy in the beginning of the fifties. And it also posted said, I think there are ways that you can understand Ronald Reagan's. Appeal as as a populist, not just a limited government conservative. And then of course, there's Trump who is populace during through. So I think that that gets back to kind of a baseline question that I've had while doing this work is if conservatives don't agree on what makes someone conservative or what conservatism really is then what good is it to discuss whether or not a particular candidate is conservative because at some point you kind of get into that messy area in which either no one is a conservative or everyone's kind of conservative. And I think that that came up a lot, you know, when you saw the never Trumpers, Trump skeptical Republicans talking about Trump, you know, saying like, he's never voiced any conservative views. I've written this a lot of people did that for example on social conservative issues, say abortion, Trump's views seem to be kind of what you would think. -servative would say if you had never encountered any some might remember Trump's interview with Chris Matthews as twenty fifteen in which he said that women who had abortions should be punished. And the response you got from antiabortion groups was like new that's not what we think. That's not what we think. But it didn't seem to matter that his internal conservatism was of no real it didn't matter to people who think of themselves as being deeply conservative. So, you know, and I think that there are a lot of folks on the left who are kind of like all we do is argue about who's more liberal than who. And who is more like and they look at the right? And they're like they nominated this guy, and he won the presidency while not adhering to the views. We've been told that are conservatism. So where does that leave us where does it leaves in the story of conservatism when no one can really agree on who gets to be against conservative. I actually think Trump ran much more as. -servative than maybe other conservatives. I know think let me explain why I was there. I followed Trump in twenty eleven when he was a flogging the birther thing and thinking of running for president. And I went with was there in New Hampshire when he visited, and I was struck by a few things one was just how much tension he drew to himself and the whole media scrum. I also struck with two more things one was that was same day that he visited New Hampshire was when the Obama administration released long form certificate, and we were at the diner. Trump was visiting a diner New Hampshire when the I think it was Robert Gibbs at that point. It could be wrong could been Jay Carney. But they come out with the with the birth certificate on television and Trump was in a private meeting when that actually happens. So we were all interested in the press will how's he going to react when he sees this on the TV, so he came out of the private room. He looked at it on the TV's his chin jutted out. You know? The lower lip expression. He always has. And then he turned to send me said he wanted have done it without me. And you saw there. Trump's ability to immediately adapt and always take credit for whatever's happening. The second thing that struck me was that same. It was at that same diner? He then moves back out onto the crowd in order to to greet mix. It up with the patrons of the diner. And I just happened to be just because it was so crowded, and there's some somehow I'm kind of crowd kind of pushes me to where I'm literally as far away from Trump as I am from you now, but we're in front of a booth of kind of looks like retirees of New Hampshire. I mean, I don't know who else would be there in the middle of the day or whatever. And Trump's assumes the same thing. I did because he's talking to them smiling. He goes not gonna touch social security em. I guys so you knew then to that the push and some quarters to not only protests, the great society, but also to try. Why to dissect or deconstruct the new deal was just a non starter in American politics at that same time in twenty eleven was when Donald Trump analyst he was pro-life. And I think that move in retrospect was the beginning of him really seriously thinking of running for president. He ended up not running in two thousand twelve of course. But he obviously did in two thousand sixteen and he understood that he could not unlike I probably from watching his friend Rudy Giuliani a few years earlier run in fail. He would not be able to win the nomination of the Republican party without being a pro life candidate. So that happens in two thousand eleven what else does he do? Well, he becomes a firm supporter of second amendment rights throughout the twenty sixteen campaign. He becomes a devoted supply-sider a tax cutter that he has Larry Kudlow and Stephen Moore. Right. His campaign proposal. Art Laffer, the founders of supply side. And then of course, now he has Larry cudlow chair has council of the National Economic Council. So pro-life second amendment tax cuts. Okay. One starting see a theme. These are all very conservative positions. What does he do when Justice Scalia dies suddenly well, very quickly? He works with the federal society to come up with the list of originalist judges that he promises to nominate to the bench. Okay. If your social conservative or constitutionalist, that's pretty good. Well, where does he depart from the Republican elites mainly it's on that question of intervention, which by that point in two thousand sixteen as you point out, even most Republicans had had shifted toward Trump. It was on the question of trade where it was always unusual that Republican support for free trade was much softer than was reflected in the party's upper echelons. And then it was finally in immigration, but immigration was an issue on which he was much closer to the Republican voters than say, the Republican Senate was because Marco Rubio had tried to write once again to work with Chuck Schumer and President Obama twenty thirteen to get conference comprehensive immigration form failed and part of that was just a total absence of support for this plan in the Republican held house. So I think on all these issues Trump was actually running as a conservative for me, the the critique of Trump during that campaign that was substantive was the one about his character and lack of experience, and that of course, was overruled by the by the electorate in on election day or ignored for politely kind of. Avoided. It just it seems interesting to me that by taking on not necessarily of the underpinnings of those belief systems. You know, not having a deep let's say a biblical understanding of the issues of life. Not having a, you know, I was deeply enmeshed in the gun rights issue. And I have a very complicated view of Heller or something like that. But just by say like, I am pro-life because that's what voters like I am pro second amendment because that's what voters like I am pro supply side economic theory because that's what I've been told voters like he was able to assume the mantle of conservatism without having to do any of the work of being a conservative think that was because so many Republican voters had basically conceived of the problem is this which is for decades, they had supported politicians who could give all of the eloquent explanations that you refer to. But then never really did anything for them. Right. Like, what have you conserve? Because I think that that's something. You know? I I've always been interested that the growth of the so-called. All right. A lot of their IRA was not aimed at the left, but at the right for not having quote, unquote, conserved anything, and I'm using air quotes, which doesn't really make any sense vodkas. Can just imagine. I am doing air quotes. There was a feeling that the Republican leadership had failed the Republican voter. This comes up again. And again, it's part of the reason that Ronald Reagan was able to come as close as he did defeating Gerry Ford in for the nomination in nineteen seventy six, and it was one reason why Goldwater was able to basically be drafted and into end winning the nomination in sixty four at the Republican voters become skeptical of their leadership, and and so this manifesto self every so often desire for people who are kind of out of that leadership or who come from outside. And that was clear that was clear is early in as twenty fifteen that the outsider candidate would do. Well, if just happened to be Trump, I almost think that there's something similar happening in liberal and progressive circles now in relation to the twenty twenty nomination that there's a desire for some somebody other than the same. Old options for someone new that could maybe lead to unexpected results. Just as it did two years ago. Hiring is challenging, but there's one place you can go. We're hiring a simple, fast and smart a place for growing businesses. Connect to qualified candidates. That place is ZipRecruiter dot com slash Ezra ZipRecruiter since your job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards, but they don't stop there with their powerful matching technology. Ziprecruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people the right experience and invite them to apply to your job. It's applications come in ZipRecruiter analysts each one and spotlights. The top candidates. You never miss a great match. In fact, ZipRecruiter is so affective that eighty percent of employers who post on ZipRecruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day and right now listeners can try ZipRecruiter for free at this exclusive web address, ZipRecruiter dot com slash Ezra. That ZipRecruiter dot com slash easy. Are a ZipRecruiter dot com slash Ezra. Ziprecruiter, the smartest way to hire. So I wanted to you've done a lot of work on Ronald Reagan. And I it's it's interesting to me that Ronald Reagan, hold such a giant place and conservative memory, you know, not necessarily because of what he did. Because I think that there are a lot of Reagan's policies. And I think it comes up a lot when you talk to kind of the. Immigration, hawk conservatives were very still very upset about Reagan's immigration policies from the mid nineteen eighties. But not not what he did. But what he meant to the conservative movement. Do you see that changing or shifting in any way? Because I think that you he's now taken on this place in which it's not necessarily about who he was. But what he meant to the movement might be shifting a think Trump has basically risen to Reagan's level in the eyes of many conservatives. And I know that might stunned the lead on the audience, but if Trump wins reelection he will be at the same level as Reagan. I think in the minds of a lot of Republicans. Do I mean, how often did Democrats look back at FDR? I mean as you there is just as problem as you get further removed from the presidency. Maybe you think about it a little bit less. That's not a problem for me. 'cause I've, you know, I'm an amateur historian. But so Ronald Reagan, and after you were probably in my. View the two most important presidents of the twentieth. Century one created the new deal. The other significantly modified it in some ways shifted the the course of events. And I think it's interesting that you know, I mentioned Obama earlier and his his re reference to Reagan in two thousand eight where he said he wanted to be a president as influentials Reagan. I don't think that's actually the way it it worked out in the Obamas able to achieve the Affordable Care Act, and that seems to be durable part of his legacy at least again under the modifications that have that have been made to it. And they've been significant ones some most recently with the abandonment of the mandate. But nonetheless, something like the will hold the other aspects of Obama's legacy were very infirm. And don't I Trump is basically dismantled all of them. So Trump significance is is real Ronald Reagan. You know, one of the things that fascinates me about Ronald Reagan is I feel he's kind of like superman. He's alien being the kind of landed in the middle of Kansas and just took over the conservative movement. You know, he he didn't become a Republican until he was fifty one years old. He was an FDR democrat. He has a note in his diary, where he says, you know, I'm being attacked as someone who's out to repudiate FDR, but they don't understand voted for DR four times. And my real goal is to is to oppose the great society. Not the new deal in yet. Reagan always had this belief that look if you share my my ideas, good join me, I'm not necessarily going to share yours. And so he was able to appeal to a wide variety of people as long as they bought into the central Reaganite premise, and what does that premise that has to do with American exceptionalism? It has to do with America as the last stand for freedom on the earth, and it has to do something. He brings up in several speeches, which I find fascinating. Reagan doesn't think of politics in terms of left or right. He thinks in term it's not horizontal axis. It's the vertical access it's control or lack of control. Are you being able to maximize choice in your life and become the individually wanna be or you being pushed down by central authority. This is a remarkable remarkable way to view politics in in my opinion. And it lends itself to to I think wide wide appeal and also allows himself to become populous because if the central authority is encroaching on your on your life in various ways within that populist. Rebellion is something that he is going to be able to capture the energy of. So I think it's important even if Reagan might be in the process of being clips by Donald Trump in the Republican party and conservative movement. I think it's very important for conservatives to go back to Reagan and think about him seriously not. Just as a successful politician, but she was actually as a political thinker which no one really gives him credit for. But but it's remarkable to me the continuity of his thought even when he was a liberal Democrat to to the day. He says goodbye to America, and his, you know, nineteen Ninety-four revelation that he had Alzheimer's. So I'm glad you brought up the idea of American exceptionalism because I think that was something that for a lot of conservatives who have opposed Trump comes never Trumpers, the fact that Trump had no adherence to American exceptionalism whatsoever. And just repeatedly said things like we've done things just as bad as they have which you know, I it's one of those things that like that is both true. And also, generally not what conservative politicians talk about. And yet that seemed to be something that maybe it was taken kind of like, well, you know, you take this along with the things we like about Trump, or it was something that really I appealed in some sense to. Kind of the kind of the foreign policy realists of conservatism. So can you talk about that? Because it seems as if in many ways Trump is a direct in stands in direct opposition to that view of you know, kind of the it's Morning America, nineteen Eighty-four version of Ronald Reagan. Yes, this is a Trump's comfort with strong men is new. And the unusual. The type of person that appeals to I don't think constitute a majority of Republicans or even conservatives, there's definitely a minority on the right? That does like that. I'm not just I'm not sure how numerous they are. It's one of those aspects of Trump that I think discomforts lot of Republicans whenever he says something like what we were just as bad or we do that too. Right. Take Kim Jong on. It has word. You know? I mean, it would take a team of experts two psychologists Donald Trump, and I'm against psychology him. I would just say I think sometimes he says these things because he views himself in a process of continual negotiation with tough guys. And so he's doing a solid for Kim Jong UN to say, oh, I take you at your word. If Trump is reelected, there will be changes to the Republican party is we understood it up until twenty sixteen. I think right now, we're in a moment of flux where he is remarkably popular among Republicans and among. Large large parts of the conservative movement, even still viewed skeptically by most conservative intellectuals. And it's we're not sure how the story is gonna turn out if he's a one term president and viewed more as a Jimmy Carter than Ronald Reagan. Well, I think you will find that. Conservatism in republicanism go back to a slight modification of the pre Trump status quo. Trump is reelected, and he becomes a two-term president. Then like, I say, I think he'll be viewed as nipping at Reagan's heels as the central Republican slash conservative political figure of our era, and you will begin I then I think you begin to see changes in the Republican posture towards things such as border security, immigration reform and trade those as well as foreign policies. Those were the three parts were Trump was always most at odds with Republican elites immigration trade and America's role in the world. And we're seeing him struggle against Republicans in congress over these issues, if you consider the fact that there's conservative of opposition in the Senate to his emergency declaration on the border. The Senate is already expressed skepticism of his tariffs and trade wars. And of course, also the recent McConnell McConnell amendment saying that we should not precipitously withdraw from Afghanistan. If Trump wins a second term, I do think you'll see a turn of the party toward his positions. Who is elected matters and the nominees and wore the president's do change their party. In for. So that's for me is this is the real question here is is Trump's relation to the Republican party. Like Jimmy Carter's or like Ronald Reagan's. I have to say at this point in his term. It's more like the ladder. So I think now is the time of which you offer our listeners a three book recommendations on very much looking forward to hear what you hearing what you recommend. Well, it's great the conversation took a turn away from what I thought we're going to discuss. So let me just start with the book on Neo conservatism, which is called you'll conservatism, by Irving Kristol. It's still imprint you should be able to find on Amazon, and it was published in nineteen ninety-five. That's the best introduction. I think to new conservatism was is in its first ration- another book. That's the thing. I just mentioned him once in this conversation. But I do think is important for people to understand kind of the faultline in American concern. Awesome. Between those who think the declaration of independence is central to the American founding. And those who believed that the constitution is more important. And this is Jarvis basically analysis of the Lincoln Douglas debates in Jaffa comes on the side of the proposition. He's the proposition was that is to say when Lincoln speaks at Gettysburg of the property that we are a government devoted to the proposition. That all men are created equal. This is the most important part of founding, and this is a controversial position within American conservatism. And there's a long going debate about is that really true is declaration really essential is as we're taught is saying you created equal lead inexorably to a desire for substantive equality. I think it's an important books. Also fantastic to read, and then if you're interested if you're interested in populism and the new right and kind of the roots of where Donald Trump came from. I recommend a book by Patrick Buchanan. Annan came out in twenty seventeen it's called Nixon's White House wars, and it's a fascinating history of the Nixon presidency by a man who is his right hand, man. And it gives a look into things such as Nixon's so called southern strategy get to the beginnings of the critique of the mainstream media, which was really through Nixon's first, vice president Spiro Agnew in a series of speeches Buchanan wrote for egging cannon rate nattering nabobs of negativism that phrase was ridden actually by William Safire. Okay. The other Nixon speechwriter who is the liberal conservative, Nixon speech. Nixon had a set of speechwriters was the conservative conservative Buchanan. There was kind of the libertarian liberal conservative sapphire. And then there is the liberal Republican rape price at a he would depending on what speech he would have a different guy. Right. The speech Buchanan in I think, Tim Alberta. Politico did a great piece on him all the controversy surrounding cannon. He really does emerge and has. Emerged in in kind of the background of Trump administration. He's emerges a very important conservative. Thinker preps not given his do. And maybe sometimes for good reason not giving his do. But that's it is actually very good work of history that he wrote in two thousand seventeen I've always thought that Buchanan's Nike ninety two Republican national convention speech was a lot more telling than I think a lot of people have led on and and a lot more influential on specifically kind of wear a portion of the conservative base was thinking would think to go on a lot of issues. You know, it's funny about that speech was polled right after he gave it and the initial polling was quite support quite supportive of the culture war speech of by the end of the week. The media had really attacked pulling began to shift, and of course, George H W Bush who became an had kind of challenge was very upset because it ran against his whole theory of you know, thousand points of light and kinder gentler nation. Well. Thank you so much Matthew cuts. Nettie of the Washington free beacon for joining me. It's been a really interesting and enjoyable conversation. Thank you. Thank you to Matthew for being here. Thank you to our producer and engineer, Geoff gal. And as loyal vox media network podcast listeners. We have a request for you. We want to hear what you have to say about our podcast what we're doing. Right. What we're doing wrong? What we should stop doing. What would you do more of? So visit vox media dot com slash pod. Survey to take the survey and tell us what you think the as recline show is a vox media podcast production. We will be back in a couple of days. Thank you for us. In this episode of the Ezra Klein show brought to you by the British stream. This is British fastest filter ever. It's great tasting Water Filter instantly as you pour. The British stream is BP free and the activated charcoal filter air moves over ninety percent of chlorine for cleaner. Great tasting water out. The best part is you're cutting down on single use plastics each British stream filter equates to three hundred pasta water bottles removed from circulation. That's that's a good deal. Get your British stream today at Amazon, WalMart or target. Hi, Martha Brooks, and I'm back with a new season of the Arthur Brooks show this season is all about love on the show. I'm talking to social scientists about why we need love and how to get more of it. That's the Arthur Brooke show. 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How The GOP Chose To Be A White Party

FiveThirtyEight Politics

41:05 min | Last month

How The GOP Chose To Be A White Party

"Hello and welcome to the fivethirtyeight politics podcast, I'm Gail Andrew. Today, it's essentially taken for granted that the Republican Party gets between five and ten percent of the black vote, and less than a third of the Hispanic vote nationally the Republican Party is an overwhelmingly white party, and that's not the result of happenstance as my colleague Clare Malone. In her piece titled The Republican Choice. It's the result of a series of choices spanning decades time and time again when it came to expanding the Party's appeal, voters of color or pursuing white voters, the Party chose the latter. Clare alone is here with me to tell that story high choir high Gaylon Clare. One hundred fifty years ago, the Republican Party was in favour of abolishing slavery and in the first half of the twentieth century plenty. Plenty of black Americans identified as Republican. So where does the story of the Republican Party becoming a white party begin for decades and decades Republicans well into the twentieth century. Really appeal to black voters because they were the party of Lincoln and it was pretty easy to remind them that. Hey, we're the ones who helped you get your freedom. You know leader. A lot of black Republicans with criticized the Party line on that because they. They, said Hey, it wasn't your freedom to give all human beings are free, but if you were looking at voters in the twenties, you would see a lot of Republicans and you started to see the party hold less appeal to black voters. As the twentieth century moved on so Herbert. Hoover ushered in this era of what we now know to be these modern day. Republican values of individualism bootstrapping. You might say and that was more. More hostile to a lot of black Americans who were still only a couple generations out of slavery, and obviously more downwardly mobile than white Americans Franklin Roosevelt did a lot to bring black Americans into the Democratic Party because of his new deal programs that big tent that we think of you know working class whites working class blacks, northerners, southerners, Roosevelt did a lot to change the dynamics of partisan politics. Problem is to put the work. Three and one half, million employable person, men and women. One now on the relief wrong, but then as you go into the even the fifties Dwight Eisenhower one almost forty percent of the black vote. So. You're still seeing Republicans viewing black voters as very much a winnable constituency. What would you characterize as the turning point in all of this from the Eisenhower era of winning almost forty percent of black voters to a situation where Republicans are hardly winning any black voters at all I would pin it down to the civil rights movement and the Civil Rights Act up until the mid twentieth century. The Democratic Party was really popular in the. The white south. If you've ever heard that term dixiecrats, you know Strom Thurmond who we all know to be. The sort of very famous segregationist or infamous segregationist was for many many years, a powerful democratic politician from South Carolina and he very famously switched to the Republican Party because he felt that the Democratic Party was being too supportive of racial integration recommended under the guy full call summarize and I'll tell you the American people from run. Off, had a head better. Wake up and. Program, if They were being able. And you saw tons and tons of white Democratic voters in the South say, we want out of this party that is embracing racial equality, and you saw the Republican party sort of say. Oh! Maybe we should get those votes and so in the late fifties early sixties late sixties. This is when you see this really intense conversation within the Republican Party saying do we continue to pursue black votes bird we go and pick up those frankly low hanging fruit votes of white voters in the south core, angry at the Democratic Party, and who are looking for a home Barry Goldwater who was the Republican Party's nominee in nineteen, sixty four and lost. I should say by a pretty big margin. I have no question. That I had I voted for that bill I might have soften some of the. Negro opposition to Mike Candidates. He but I'm not foolish enough to think that I would have won over the N. double ACP I have to live with myself because he was so conservative, a bit of a radical figure to a lot of Americans, but Barry Goldwater argument to Republicans was he famously said this line. We should go hunting where the ducks are. And what he meant was the Republican Party should stop tending so much to moderate northern. Northern constituencies and go to the solid democratic south that was now looking for new representation and frankly racist representation, and that sort of famously called the southern strategy, and that is ultimately what the party embraced, but Barry Goldwater lost in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty four. So, how did the party take away from that experience that it should double down on this strategy and wanted the conflict over whether or not to pursue the strategy further book like? There was a lot of soul searching in the Republican Party falling the nineteen sixty four loss, and in fact in nineteen, sixty six. There's Time magazine cover. That has six Republican rising stars. The tagline in the magazine is Republican. Resurgence and Ronald Reagan was then the governor of California's on there but Edward Brooke, who was the country's first black senator? Since reconstruction was on the cover George Romney the Governor Michigan was on there and in that magazine, Article Time. Time writes that the future of the Republican Party is mostly. They said moderates with immoderate ambitions so basically they're saying. The party went hardcore conservative. Barry Goldwater in nineteen, sixty four, and that was obviously the wrong direction. The party is now thinking okay. We got to choose people who are more moderate who appeal to a wider swath of America in order to compete in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty eight, and that is not what happened, so what did happen? Richard Nixon, who was a real political animal, understood that while people in the media while Time magazine might think that moderate was the way to go to win the Republican nomination. He realized that Barry Goldwater. was still very popular among that Republican base and one of the big moderates that had emerged in the Republican Party was George Romney the Republican governor of Michigan Mitt Romney's father and George Romney had been a extremely successful car executive had one in a democratic state. was handsome was ernest. was you know all these things that people thought? A politician should be a Republican Party. Mark Promote Wave, program. And provide the leadership. That will capture the interest race, SPEC and support on the majority of them are denied the future. She was also very racially progressive. He championed civil rights. He was basically a northern moderate, and he was a front runner. I should say for a while and the campaign. Nixon was not the front runner. Initially, it was George Romney But there were also big riots in Detroit and Romney was the governor of Michigan and eventually had to put down the riots along with help from the National Guard and Nixon turned that to his advantage. He sort of said look at George, Romney who by the way embraces civil rights for Black Americans. He can't keep this American city under control, and we know Detroit was also a largely black city neighborhoods that were having these riots were often black neighborhoods, and so Nixon basically pointed to this chaos in many American cities, but in particular in Detroit Romney had influence and he said. Said! Do you want this guy in charge and Dixon says this is a quote from him. He says quote. The primary civil rights in America was to be protected from domestic violence and he met these riots. So this is his famous law and order message end. It was playing on. White voters fear of black Americans. It's interesting in nineteen sixty six that same time magazine article the author pointed out that the Republicans kind of had a way in because the Democratic Party's FDR. Era Coalition was fragmenting, and they said quote Negro militancy has siphoned off much of the support from. Irish and Slavs and those are the voters that Nixon went after whites in the north and the south. WHO WERE AFRAID OF BLACK AMERICANS getting greater rights and afraid of the disorder and protests and unrest that was happening in the nineteen sixties, and that is why law and order worked as a message and nineteen, sixty eight I again, proudly accept that nomination for president of the United States. But George Romney as you said. In nineteen, sixty six was the front runner in nineteen, sixty four. He was arguing for including civil rights plank in the Republican Party platform. Clearly, this is a section of the Republican Party. What happened to it in nineteen sixty eight? Did it fight back against Nixon what happened at the nineteen, sixty eight convention. was that George Romney supporters. Supporters did try to nominate him to be the vice president at the last minute, because this was back when conventions were actually unpredictable, their little rebellion was put down by some sort of backroom deals run by the Nixon people where they got the southern delegate approved Spiro Agnew to be Nixon's vice president instead, so there were certainly actions that were taken to try to. To Stop that continuation of the southern strategy, there's a quote from George Romney right after the convention, which was in Miami, re reporters, he, speaking to Nixon and agnew here he says quote to prevent this abscess from reforming that APPs being that split between the racist versus not racist strategies Nixon Agnew have to make the party leaders from the states that must win the. The election for them at least as important as Mr Nixon, made the leaders of the south and the southwest and winning the nomination, so that's Romney. Basically saying Nixon you have to give credence to the moderate northerners as much as you're giving these conservative radicals, and yes, racists from the south, and in some cases the South West this Romney I think pretty plainly stating. Convention listen. This is a big problem in the Republican Party and they've got to patch over that wound or in the gross metaphor. That Romney use the obsess and I would argue that abscess never actually went away. And so, how did Nixon respond to that advice? Once nominated. Did he do anything to try to engage voters of color, and as the seventy S on? How did voters of color view the Republican? Party wants George Romney vision of the Republican Party had kind of faded away. You do start to see black voters leaving the Republican Party. They're not all necessarily joining the Democratic Party. There's a lot of independent voters. The Republican Party really did tend to its garden in the south. South and it wasn't particularly doing a lot of outreach to those voters, which is why after Watergate's you know another moment of crisis for the GOP? You saw again this little mini emergence of some of those moderate Republicans, saying hey, maybe we should try going after those black voters again. So this is in the late seventies post, Nixon administration post the wreckage of the party. People saying okay. Maybe we should do the outreach now, and that obviously didn't happen again. Why not? Because the party went with Ronald Reagan there's this really interesting moment. In the late nineteen seventies and the Republican Party in Nineteen Seventy, eight, the Republican Party chairman. Bill Brock invited Jesse Jackson to speak at an RNC meeting, and basically to argue the case that as Jackson. Put it the Republican. Party needs black people. If it is ever to compete for National Office Jackson made this argument that there were seven million on registered black voters who were up for grabs by. By, the GOP The New York Times said after the meeting that quote Jackson's proposition seems realistic enough given that thirty percent of northern and twenty percent of southern blacks already considered themselves independence. Jesse Jackson got a standing ovation from this republican crowd and talking to the New York. Times this chairman Bill Brock, said if the Republicans nominate the right nineteen eighty presidential candidate, they could hope to get anywhere from thirty to forty percent of the black vote. That did not happen. Ronald Reagan a very conservative. Republican was their nominee in nineteen eighty, and he only one fourteen percent of the black vote. What was in the late seventies for Jesse Jackson and other African Americans who were encouraging? The Republican Party to seek black voters. Largely, he was worried that if black Americans voted to predictably with the Democratic Party that, the Democratic Party would take their votes for granted, and therefore would take their needs for granted. You eventually obviously became a very important figuring democratic politics, but during this period he was looking for leverage political leverage for black Americans to continue the civil rights fight. He was kind. Kind of worried about you know what we saw. Happen just a couple months ago. You see Joe Biden who's on this very popular radio show with a very popular black radio host and the hostess, saying essentially, what are you GonNa do for black people and Joe Biden said if you have a problem figuring out whether you're familiar, trump and you ain't black. And in some ways, that's exactly what. Jesse Jackson was worried about in the nineteen seventies that the Democrats would take black voters so for granted that they would be a foregone conclusion, and you know it's not as if there weren't things about the Republican Party of Nineteen, Seventy, eight, one, thousand nine hundred eighty that couldn't persuade black voters that they had a natural home. You see a nineteen seventy-nine nagazine profile of Jesse Jackson and he is. Is described as being at an anti-abortion rally. I mean you'll see this later. When George W Bush and Karl Rove say hey, you know who's natural conservative. UH, Spanich voter in Texas, because they're probably Catholic or very religious in their anti-abortion Jackson was sort of emblematic of the idea that lots of Americans had these socially conservative parts of their belief system that the Republican Party could act on electorally. But didn't ultimately end up happening as you said in one, thousand, nine, hundred eighty, Ronald Reagan only got fourteen percent of the black vote throughout the eighties, Reagan had a pretty successful tenure as president did he end up appealing to the black community once in office or was it essentially acknowledged that the Republican Party didn't need a lot of black voters in order to be successful. A particular focus of Reagan's electoral strategy. In fact, there's this one thousand nine hundred eighty campaign. Stop that Reagan makes at the National League, which is a prominent civil rights organization, and later on a Reagan, said that that stop wasn't so much to win over black voters, but it was to show white moderates and liberals. That Reagan wasn't anti-black, so it was this concern not with winning. Winning black votes, but proving that Reagan wasn't racist to white moderates. Who might have said oh I remember Ronald. Reagan, wasn't he? kind of the Barry Goldwater Super Conservative type of guy I mean Reagan's heard of great mythology that he was uber charming, and Kinda made people like him was able to play to these traditionally democratic white ethnic voters in American northern cities. Italian voters Irish voters. Voters as nineteen, sixty six time magazine put it slobs Reagan was winning those people over, and those were voters that he was more concerned with you know he wasn't using explicitly racial language, but he was still falling the roadmap laid out by the southern strategy. It seems like time and time again. The Republican Party considers greater outreach to black voters and voters of color when it's in. In a situation where it has lost a big election, and so maybe throughout the eighties, and through George H W Bush's tenure. There wasn't a lot of that same soul-searching. So when did the party start again to think about how it might reach out to black and Brown voters I? Think you really start to see this? During the campaigns of George W Bush, a two term. President and the last Republican to win the popular vote in two thousand four Bush was a very interesting candidate. He branded himself as a compassionate conservative, and he explicitly did so you know I talked to Karl Rove is very famous or infamous. Depending on what side you're on political strategist and Roaf said you know that he put that Compassionate Conservative label on himself to indicate that he was different from previous Republicans and I think that was because he wanted to appeal to minority constituencies particularly Hispanic voters who he had done very well with. Was the governor of Texas row Tomino he spoke Spanish, but he was making the effort. He thought his a square las Cuevas. Junior high, Dombi and in Highschool is studio especially as as. Soon as Easy. His kids went to a public high school that had a lot of Hispanic students in Austin Texas. He was sort of comfortable with that culture and was able to paint himself as laid back compassionate conservative type. Who wanted to say listen I'm not the austerity scary old White Guy Republican that you're used to and Bush focused a lot of his frankly pre-nine eleven politics on domestic issues. No Child left behind his marquee education program. Program was a bipartisan effort Ted Kennedy the quote Unquote Liberal Lion. Bell put together. No child left behind so Bush initially came in with this kind of he wanted to soften the Republican. Party image, and actually in two thousand five Ken Melman, who was the C. Chairman, and who had been Bush's two thousand four campaign manager, he went to the N. Double ACP National Convention, and he formally apologized for the GOP's southern strategy. We're all of these efforts to soften the GOP's image and reach out to minority voters, actually electorally successful. You mentioned that in the past Reagan's overtures to minority voters may have had more to do with appealing to white moderates, then actual minority voters was this strategy by bus successful. Bush was very successful with Hispanic voters in his second election he got almost forty percent of the Hispanic vote, so Bush was actually doing pretty well with expanding the Republican umbrella and it's interesting. You know I talked to a couple of Bush era strategist. Matthew, dowd, Karl Rove and they are interestingly very irritated by their. Reputation for having pursued something called the based strategy. The strategy was this ploy to turn out the Republican base, mostly evangelical voters by playing the issue of gay marriage. A trait by getting people riled up about that and Rovan Dowd. We'll tell you. Okay Yeah we did that, but we won the popular vote by also appealing to these different constituencies, these non traditional Republican constituencies. There's another element to all of this which you begin to see emphasized more in the two thousands, which has to do with voting and concerns that there could be potential voter fraud and laws that follow what happened. Why did the Republican Party become so interested in the possibility of voter fraud? So. I should say Republican talk about voter. Fraud certainly did not start with Bush. You can go all the way back to the nineteen sixties and see Republican saying things about voter, fraud and Chicago or other big democratic cities. There were frankly ballot place intimidation squads that Republicans organized to administer literacy tests to voters at largely black and Latino district's William Rehnquist, who go on to become the chief justice of the United States Supreme Court was the leader of one of those. Security operations is what they call them, but they were frankly racial profiling. Trying to suppress the votes of minority voters in certain places, cystic greened wisdom now that black voters or voters of color do not vote for the Republican. Party, and from that idea flows a lot of electoral strategy that has to do with frankly the suppression of minority votes you know in nineteen eighty, one of the CO founders of the Heritage Foundation basically said explicitly. We do better in elections when not everyone votes I don't want everybody to vote. Elections are not one by a majority of people they never have been from the beginning of our country, and they are not now as a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down. Sue back to the early two thousands. Why did this become such an issue? During Bush's tenure, the two thousand election alerted people to the idea that the mechanics of voting were actually very important to potentially helping determine what votes counted and what votes didn't count, and you go on to see this blossoming during the Bush administration in the Justice Department in the Division that Apps to do with voting and the administration of the voting. Rights, act. You go on to see a lot of these laws in states that are frankly racially discriminatory or put greater burdens on voters of color. You see those pop up under the Bush administration, basically trying to make it harder for black people to vote. Vote, which as we all know, is not a new thing in America the Voting Rights Act and provision of the voting, right act in particular were at one point in time aimed at making sure that these historically racist areas of the country warrant suppressing the votes of black voters and the Bush administration along with a lot of Republican ministrations has done quite a lot to roll back. Those provisions you see you know today in places like Georgia voter roll purges the closing of polling places in predominantly black neighborhoods, and you've also seen over the past ten fifteen years, the rollout of these voter ID laws which really caught on during the Bush administration, starting frankly in places like Georgia. These voter, ID laws, said things that sort of seemed pretty reasonable on the face of things, but they tended to place undue burdens on people who had a harder time obtaining government identification. You know people who might not have a driver's license, or for whom it takes greater effort because they don't have a car, have to use public transportation to get to those places. They were very roundly seen as the solution for a problem. Problem. That didn't exist I e there actually isn't a lot of voter fraud in the United States, and there was actually this study done by Justin Levitt that looked at the over a billion ballots that were cast between two thousand and twenty fourteen, and there are only thirty one instances where voter ID could have prevented ballot-fraud, so it's a solution in search of a problem is what a lot of people will tell you. So help me understand. How both things are happening at the same time? One Bush sees it to his advantage, and is actually successful at incorporating more voters of color into the Party and to his administration is taking actions that work to essentially suppress the vote of people of Color. What's going on? Yeah, it's kind of double talk. It's the work of the administration versus the work of the campaign I think. Think kind of what it boils down to in some ways is that Republicans had decided that some Minorities Aka. Hispanics were winnable constituencies and other minorities were not really as winnable AK, black people I think Kanye West kind of it in this very plane way sort of spoke of the feelings I think of a lot of black Americans in two thousand and five when he said on this televised fundraiser. Fundraiser for Hurricane Katrina Victims George Bush doesn't care about black people and it kind of became this economic moment in pop culture history, but frankly political history, and in some ways I think the Bush administration had realized that black voters are too far gone from the Republican Party, but the Hispanic voters were a lot of them were to the country or newer to voting or to the political system and that. That they could still be winnable. They didn't have this really ingrained fraught history with the Republican Party yet. And so during the Bush administration you saw Republicans playing both sides of that electoral occasion to use the language of a campaign strategist. They were pursuing a couple options they were doing you win election by addition, but also they were influenced by that Republican wisdom of will do better if not everyone votes. Continuing on a theme the next time we really see the Republican Party, dig deep and think about its relationship with voters of color in America is after another stinging wasps with in two thousand twelve, in which Mitt Romney got six percent of the black of a twenty-seven percent of the Hispanic vote. What do those conversations within the Republican Party look like post two thousand twelve. They were very serious conversations that took a hard look at not only the parties messaging, but some of its fundamental policies, so the party chairman at the time ranked priebus. Who would go? Go onto become trump's chief of staff commission's report. That was basically like what did we do wrong? What can we do better? It was officially called the growth and opportunity project, but it was kind of flippantly referred to by a lot of people as the two thousand twelve gop autopsy report, and I spoke to one of the authors of the report Henry Barber. Who told me that you know? reince priebus called him after the two thousand twelve election said basically, we've got to do some soul-searching and that autopsy report was very frank and I'm quoting from it. Many, minorities wrongly think that Republicans do not like them or want them in the country. And it went on to basically recommend the Republicans be more welcoming to minorities, particularly Hispanics this was a bit of a reversion to the compassionate conservatism idea of the George W. Bush era, and while the report didn't make specific policy recommendations. It did specifically single out immigration as this place where the Republican Party really needed. Needed to do some work to come up with a comprehensive plan that would be palatable to more Americans and frankly to Hispanic Americans in particular, and it was seen as this. You know really important roadmap for the future and I think we gotta remember when we look at the twenty sixteen primaries. Obviously, we all know who won, but to the big candidates in Ted, Cruz and Marco. Rubio were Hispanic Americans. What happened between two thousand four were bushees winning almost forty percent of the Hispanic vote and two thousand twelve, where Romney's winning, only twenty seven percent and two thousand sixteen where the party nominates donald trump. For one thing the country elected its first black president, and a lot of voters of color were taken with Barack Obama were taking with the idea of inclusive, a racially inclusive Democratic Party on the policy side of things particularly when it comes to Hispanic voters in the Republican Party. Moderation on immigration disappeared a lot of ways during those years I. Mean I talked to Karl. Rove and he blamed some of the politics of the Iraq war and bushes, foreign entanglements with killing a lot of bipartisan deals on the domestic front, including immigration, but also I think you saw the Republican base. Continue to to be pretty anti immigrant frankly Franklin a lot of ways I mean you know there's this two thousand seven? Fair profile of John McCain who had become the party's nominee in two thousand eight, who was a senator from a border state in Arizona basically saying listen, my base wants the fence I'll give him the goddamn fence. I don't actually think it works, but I'll give it to them if they want it. You know McCain wanted a bipartisan immigration deal, and that didn't happen, and so I think you see over the past couple of decades past couple of presidential elections. The party really shift until you get to two thousand. Thousand Sixteen and Donald Trump, and the ultimate based strategy campaign trump was turning out those people who had been really hard core, gung-ho anti immigration for many many years, and also, if we all the way back to the Knicks Sonian marriage of southern whites and northern whites in this racial bigotry, the low hanging fruit that is racial politics united, states trump really play too that they're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. Their rapists and some I assume are good people, but I speak to border guards and they tell us. Where does the Party stand today? Because in two thousand sixteen president, trump's showed that the party doesn't have to do a lot of work to appeal to black voters or Hispanic voters in order to win a presidential election is that accepted as the new wisdom, or is there still faction on the party that wants to appeal to voters of color. There's definitely still affection that wants to appeal to voters of color. There are a lot of people I think who are nervous about trump's performance in November. I mean frankly people are worried that with his response to the protests and some of the violence in the wake of George Floyd killing. There's this feeling of great racial unrest in the country, and that trump very good at. At dealing with it now let's hearken back to Ronald Reagan going into the Urban League to prove he's not racist or the R. N. C. Chairman, going to the N. Double A. C. P. to prove he's not racist to moderate white voters. Trump doesn't do that. Trump doesn't even virtue signal to of these more moderate white voters. Who might vote for Republicans. Who might vote? Vote for Democrats but who are concerned about racism in America trump doesn't even throw them align. He has pursued this overtly racist strategy, and that makes a lot of GOP strategists nervous because Kerala said winning the presidency via the college is a fluke. Right basically saying you've got to win the popular vote. And how do you win the popular vote? You win the popular vote by. By appealing to more people than just your base, trump's base is well tended by trump but Joe Biden. You'll look at current polls Joe Biden appeals to a lot of those crossover constituencies, some of those white moderates right some of the older voters, and so I think you're seeing a lot of people really nervous about trump's blind reliance on this. Turn out the base strategy. So, this is where the Republican Party is now some people within the party are concerned. Others seem dust as excited as ever about president trump. Looking back on the five decades that we just reviewed. Why did the Republican Party make the choices that it did over and over again. To get us to the point where we are today. If I had to boil it down. To one sentence, it would be. Because it's easy. It is easy further. Republican party to run elections. On race baiting issues because America has. A huge problem with race. It is a trait thing to say that slavery. Original sin that is a country that is built on this fundamentally flawed and racist history. And that there are a lot of seeds that have been sown over the decades that make it really easy to appeal to white Americans. Racism, and what's so interesting about the southern strategy to me is that it wasn't just something that worked with southern whites. It worked with northern whites as well, and that has a lot to do. With a lot of those white immigrants coming in from Europe during the late nineteenth and twentieth century they came to big American cities, and they met the northern migration of freed slaves or the sense of. Of Slaves who were also competing for jobs, and in these tough cities and economic markets, and you could pit those whites and blacks against each other and very easily sort of bring these racial tensions to the fore, so America has always kind of cultivated these racial tensions and I think it's very easy to run campaigns on them. I should say the Democrats are in no way excluded from this. This, you can go back and look at Hillary Clinton Super Predator line about black men who were threats during the ninety s when everyone was scared about crime. They are not just gangs of kids anymore. They are often the kinds of kids that are called superpredators. No conscience, no empathy we can talk about. That's a race baiting slogan. This is something that American politicians are very used to doing. Doing because our country is a country with huge racial problems, so it's easy to get people's emotions riled up and get them to vote for you if they feel like you're speaking their language on race to people who look at Romney and Bush and H, w Bush and Reagan, and maybe say I didn't see any explicit racism in the way that they campaigned or the way that they governed. What do you say? Yeah I mean listen the Republican, party you know up until trump was a little more subtle about the signaling that it did white voters in certain parts of the country. I e they weren't explicitly racist. In some of their electoral appeals be, you can look to someone like Ronald Reagan. Who did this infamous speech about states rights in this county in Mississippi that had a lot of lynchings that was this place of real trauma to black Americans Reagan spoken. Spoken this very thinly veiled language that nodded to yeah. I'm still part of the Republican Party that favors the southern strategy that is on your side, so it's not as if the Republican. Party hasn't in subtle ways been continuing on with making some of these appeals to white voters based on race. What about trump who says that he's trying to get voters of color into the Party and his strategist who say that they're making headway with young black voters? Trump is interesting I mean trump actually did better with Hispanics in particular, but some minority communities in two thousand sixteen than Romney had done you know his campaign is pretty explicit and has been explicit about trying to suppress the black vote in some areas by playing up. Let's say in Two Thousand Sixteen Hillary. Clinton's racists Super Predator remarks in saying look. The Democratic Party doesn't like you either right, so you shouldn't vote the. The trump campaign has done that now as far as trump, specific appeal to voters of color trickle younger ones. There is something in that in the sense that trump in general appeals to Americans who are bogged down by what they perceive as the stiff talk of politicians. They like that trump is anti politically correct. There's something that people like about that Frank speaking and I think that that appeal does cross color boundaries right. Right like it's not just white voters who like it when someone says the uptight liberal media doesn't want you to talk about this thing that everyone talks about you know in your life and the thing that you talk about around the dinner table or the language you use around the dinner table. This president is talking that language I think a lot of people find that appealing, but I do think that from a strategic. Strategic point of view. Trump's campaign is not at all counting on black voters to carry them anywhere in twenty twenty at all, so finally looking ahead to the Republican Party for eight years down the Pike. Are there people lying in wait to take the Republican party down a different path to pursue voters of color? What does the Republican Party's future? Look like when it comes to this question of who it appeals to? We are in this moment where a lot of people in the GOP are worried about the party once again you know I think that's been a little bit of the theme here of these inflection points in the GOP history, when it's really considered whether or not it's pursuing the right electoral strategy, and we now find ourselves in a moment of racial unrest in America. Donald. Trump is losing by all accounts in the polls, and I think there are a lot of Republican officials, a lot of Republican strategists who are worried about the future of the party whether or not it can really be competitive and vibrant in its trumpy stage, appealing only to white voters, and so while there might be you know Nikki Haley out there, and there might be a Marco Rubio resurgence. There are also. Also a lot of question marks that surround the future of the party, and that does worry a lot of these. Republicans in the establishment about you know what the next ten or twenty years of their party could look like clem alone. Thank you for joining me today. Thanks for having again to read. Clare's article called the Republican choice. However, party spent decades making itself White. Go to find thirty eight DOT COM. My name is gala drew Jake Arlo helped with production. You can get in touch by emailing US at podcast at five thirty eight dot com you can, also of course tweeted us with questions or comments. If you're a fan of the show, leave us a rating or review in the apple podcast store. Poor tell someone about us. Thanks for listening and we'll see some.

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SMNTY Classics: The Ghost of Phyllis Schlafly

Stuff Mom Never Told You

1:24:02 hr | 5 months ago

SMNTY Classics: The Ghost of Phyllis Schlafly

"Pepperidge Farm Milano believes you should make some time for yourself once in a while sometimes just can't have that bath that you really need so maybe cookie instead cookies make most things better. Miami time is hiking, and there's nothing like getting to the top of the summit, and then having a Milano Cookie Milano. Cookies are the perfect treat to savor during me time. They have just the right amount of cookie and luxurious rich chocolate. They're the type of treats. You won't want to share, so remember to save something for yourself with Pepperidge Farm Milano. I'm Hugh Jackson I'm a chef restaurant tour a traveler and now I'm the host of the passenger. People ask me all the time. What's that list of places to go in this city in that city and this show is dedicated to that idea, mercer yourself in that culture and finding out what's intriguing, what resound and what we think about the future of that place as a visitor as a passenger subscribe now on the iheartradio, APP, apple, podcasts or wherever you podcast. Hey, this is Anne and Samantha and welcome to stuff on. Never told you production of iheartradio. For today's classic could we are talking about them. That's come up a lot in the news lately and a couple of our recent podcast, and that is Phyllis. Schlafly schlafly somebody always struggle pronunciation of her name, right? I feel like every time we talk about her do. You think I don't think those women he does. How yes? Yeah, I think her name is. No offense to any schlafly out there that are not like her. But yeah, because of the movement, and continued debate around the equal rights amendments, she has been coming up a lot and in this month of International. Women's Day or National Women's month thought that it was appropriate to bring her back in this very appropriately titled. Episode that Carolina. Did pass host the ghost of Phyllis. Schlafly because it feels like we're still dealing right. Her work is still haunting us. It very much is so. I loved it I loved it. Yeah, please enjoy learn. In this in this classic episode. Welcome to stuff. Mom Never told you from house works DOT com. Hello and welcome to the PODCAST. I'm Kristen and I'm caroline and today. We are talking about filaments. Laflin. This episode has been a long time coming, but ever since she died on September, Fifth Twenty Sixteen. We've been talking amongst ourselves, Carolina I about how we should episode on Phyllis. We've heard from a number of listeners asking whether we're going to deal with Phyllis schlafly episode and How could we not? How could we not especially after my twitter response to her passing, brought men out of the woodwork to tell me that I was a monster. So, what did you tweet? I tweeted in, Dia, Gif. Whereas, Diaa was just going by. And that was it. and. Conservative gentlemen did not appreciate that and called me. Fat Feminist Monster. Ono they called you fat. Isn't that the worst thing? A woman can be called totally. Did you even survive it I? Don't know I don't know eating even more feminism eating eating all the feminists. Yeah, well, it's also apropos talk about Schlafly, because in a lot of ways. She paved the way for Donald Trump being the republican nominee for president this year and I would argue that her star was definitely rising at the same time that the Republican Party was veering more toward the Reagan affiliation. You know aligning with the religious right. then it previously had been yeah I mean that's how she made her name was definitely by. Essentially ushering helping usher, what was this fringe? Right Wing Group of Republicans sort of like we think of the tea party today in to the mainstream. Because for a long time, they were just sort of often the corner. And Not really taken all that seriously, but then as will talk about more Phyllis Schlafly. Showed America that these right wing conservatives win in the polls. But I. DON'T WANNA get too ahead of ourselves. Let's talk a little bit more about who this woman is because for I i. feel like you either absolutely know who she is because she's the arch nemesis of second wave, feminism or you probably never heard of her, so let's give a quick primer of who this schlafly. WHO's Schlafly lady is. WHO's this dame well I mean. Mean you're right. She's absolutely considered one of the most polarizing figures in American public political life, and she's basically I. Don't know what would you? She's an author. She's a politician to a degree and she is best known for her war against the equal rights amendment in the Nineteen Seventies. Yeah, I mean she's a grassroots conservative political organizer who is now considered an icon among. Ultra right-wing Republicans Donald Trump included and. We. Read her obituary in both the New York Times. Obviously more liberal. Some might call it the lame stream media if they're schlafly fans. And then we read her. In the National Review, which is ultra conservative of course and the New York Times described her as quote. A self-described housewife who displayed moral ferocity reminiscent of the axe, wielding prohibitionist Carrie. Nation says he's a tough cookie, real stuff, cookie and then the national review described her meanwhile, as one of the original Happy Warriors Funny Gracious and Grittier Than One might expect, and it's astonishing to trace back our political climate today and everything that we are now witnessing in terms of Donald, trump's supporters, and the types of white dudes came after you on twitter, for instance and trace at all way back to. This woman in the Mid West who in a lot of ways started out almost like Hillary Clinton, she was from a relatively like working class background although Hillary. Clinton came from a slightly wealthier middle class family. But schlafly. Was scrappy and she was. And she was ambitious. And then. The! Any similarity, she might have to Hillary Clinton just ends right there well. Yeah, and I mean they both initially supported Barry Goldwater to before. I went the other direction, but yeah and I mean you can look at the. The fact that Nowadays Catholics and Evangelical Christians worked together. When they are on the right you can trace that back to Phyllis. Schlafly as well. She was Catholic devoutly Catholic, but. Through and we'll get to this more in a second, but like through all of her grassroots efforts, she brought more women of different faiths and different denominations into the political fold to try to combat this sort of what she viewed as. Liberalisation the downfall of American society and in a lot of ways she is. A difficult woman she summarize because she's kind of a basket of contradictions. Yeah, because she is this very ambitious self, sufficient woman and a lot of ways who said that from the get go and she was growing up. She knew that she would need to take care of herself. And in her political career, she was extremely visible. She wrote twenty books I mean the woman never stopped and yet publicly. She always said that she was a housewife. I and politics was just a hobby because she has six children home and her husband Fred Schlafly is. King, essentially, and she does whatever he allows her to do even though. Like in the same breath, you'll also say you know, but I can do whatever I want. And she relished. Starting this organization called Stop Era which was intended to stop the equal rights amendment well, yeah, and stop an acronym for stop taking our privileges. Which is? What I learned about that acronym was also. My brain exploded a little bit about just how how blatant the intention is right there. Of Privileges stop taking our privileges because I mean Phyllis Schlafly, we'd be like yeah, I mean I love white. Privilege is terrific. Yeah, I when I was researching her life and activism and politics. My brain just kept collapsing on itself because. To me. As a liberal feminist. And, one who cares about having equal rights for people of all backgrounds. None of it made sense because I'm like. Why would you want to? Stop the Era A. When, Oh, wait, no, but you only one the privileges for you and yours well. Okay so I was I. Take Back what I say that she would. She would be all about her white privilege. Because what Phyllis Schlafly did. And Donald Trump does as she deny that privilege even exist. Oh, we'll sure. In the same way that she denies that denied that sexism even exists well privilege in the way that we talk about it now and on our podcast, but I mean she actively talked about the privileges afforded to women right in the sense of chivalry almost right. Yes, so her latest book, a Conservative case for trump came out just after her death, and she describes in it, trump as a quote fashioned man grounded in his two great priorities, hard work and family, and a man who, in other respects, has led a remarkably clean life, okay? So I. Mean this is this is the the viewpoint that we're dealing with. This is the kind of it. Choose your own reality. That Phyllis Schlafly. was able to mold into a startlingly powerful career for herself, and it makes sense that right before her death at ninety two years old, she came out stumping for trump because she was all about populism, she was all about demagoguery, and she was all about. You know galvanizing this hyper conservative evangelical religious right that has similarly flocked to trump well and. Regardless of weather you as the politician she was stumping for were hyper, Republican or whatever? She just hated the establishment right? That's like some of the same rhetoric. You hear a lot right now. And and she saw trump as an answer to those. Payments Politics, and she was really she harped for decades on. Kingmakers, the idea of like a secret group of rich liberal elite kingmakers who sat around a pointing politicians around the world. Yeah, I mean 'cause that right there is. A core tenet of populism where. Their belief is that almost conspiratorially that. It's just a group of powerful people who are making all the decisions so power to the people. Let's overthrow them, and she told Breitbart in January of this year. Twenty sixteen that quote trump is the only hope to defeat the kingmakers because everybody else will fall in line. So I mean she really believed in this kingmaker business to her death, and I mean that's that's all also something to keep in mind as we talk about Phyllis schlafly and something that was. Impressed upon me reading about her time line is how. She has not changed in her political viewpoints at all. She's still tells the same anecdotes. That she did you know in the sixties? So. How did Phyllis happen? well, let's give a little bit of biographical background real quick born in August nineteen, twenty, four as Phyllis McAlpine Stewart in Saint Louis I did have a moment of concern because a lot of people are from Saint Louis and I. Did wonder like Oh. She came up in. St Louis around the same time as my grandmother wonder if they were friends. She was the oldest of two daughters to odeal dodge, who was her mother and John Bruce Stewart? And what's really interesting? Is that. I mean by all accounts. Her mother was also a very hard worker. She worked outside the home. She was a teacher with two college degrees and that's. Not Too shabby at all for a woman who was born at the end of the nineteenth century. Her mother not phyllis right I mean and odeal ended up being the breadwinner because her dad. John Bruce. Stewart was a westinghouse machinist and an industrial equipment salesman, and after he lost his job in the Great Depression. ODEAL had to become the breadwinner and she hustled. She was a department store saleswoman. She was an elementary school teacher and a librarian at Saint Louis Art Museum and in her spare time how she had spare time. I'm not sure. She wrote a book on the history of Saint Louis Yeah. So like the constantly busy work work work, ethic Phyllis Schlafly could absolutely be seen in her mother as well. But and also her politics, though come straight from her dad, her dad was seventeen years older than Odeal, which is going to be a similar age gap that will see and Phyllis schlafly his own marriage, and her dad was a staunch Republican who, even though they fell in such hard times during the Great Depression. He hated FDR and hated the new deal and wanted nothing to do with that, and so from a very young age, Phyllis was. Groomed to be a very conservative Republican. Yeah and I think that there's also the emotional aspect of. Yes. She had a really smart, really hardworking really busy mother, but she also grew up in addition to hearing her father rail against the new deal, heard her mother being filled with regret at having to work those jobs. Her mother wanted to stay home with the kids in the house and do the cooking and all about that stuff, and be the traditional housewife, and so she's being raised with these ideas about traditional family and traditional politics, and because of their financial situation at home Phyllis realized that she was going. Going to have to make her own way, it's not like Her parents could just pay for her to go to college, and so she worked really hard. She was always at the top of her class, and in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, four, she received her bachelor's degree from Washington University and in a makers interview. She talks about how she paid her way through college by working. She says forty eight hours a week as a nightshift Gunnar testing, thirty and fifty caliber ammunition at a Saint, Louis Munitions. Plant and that is absolutely true I mean. She not only tested these guns she would also. Like document their trajectories and do all of this stuff, which seems like again very appropriate. Resume item for someone who ended up leading right wing Republicans. But also one thing we skipped over is that she graduated at nineteen right. She finished college in three years and graduated at nineteen like some people don't even enter college until nineteen like she was I mean this woman was so driven and was from the outset, not going to let anything stand in her way, but at this point she doesn't necessarily want to go into politics. She ends up in nineteen forty five. Receiving her master's degree in political science, from Radcliffe, which was the sister university to Harvard at the time, because while Harvard had started leading some women from Radcliffe take colleges with Hoffman they wouldn't fully allow women into the school and apparently. She ended up in Pali. Sigh because it was one of the only. Things that she could study and do it at Harvard, so she could do it in those mixed gender classrooms because it meant a lot to her to go to Harvard and Radcliffe and if you listen to any interviews with her. Whenever she talks about her masters degree, she loves talking about you know her bootstrapping of her education, and she always says she went to Harvard. But? In fact, her degrees from Radcliffe and I realized that that's kind of a minor detail, but I think it's still says. A lot about how she? Sort of adjusts her reality to fit this concept of a sexism free world that needs no feminism because as she would tell. Audiences, usually of filled with women. Well when I went to school, there was no sexism I had no trouble getting into college. I was able to study alongside. The boys know what these feminists we're talking about. And it was one thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, five, my blood, pressure, and yeah, and and just as she didn't necessarily set out to be a policy major, she also did not set out to be a conservative right wing Republican either. She was pretty moderate, but she quickly shifted. More conservative. After. She did face barriers and she would not admit necessarily that they were barriers. Used it more to illustrate that she was able to sort of shift course as needed and find her niche that allowed her to. Gain power to really become Phyllis Oh yeah, definitely gain power for sure and her. Post College. Career path also hints as to why she has so much animosity toward big government, because after she graduates from matriculated from Radcliffe, you know the war is ending, and a lot of jobs are being reserved specifically for veterans, most of whom are men, so phyllis wants to get a job in the federal government. She's like I. WanNa work on policy. This is my thing. I got really into this police cy. classwork and I'm good at it. She graduated at the top of her class, but she couldn't find a job in the federal government because they were like no. We gotta save these veterans so. Big Brother didn't allow Phyllis to fulfill her dream, so she ends up at the far more conservative think-tank private think tank of the American Enterprise Institute so I mean it's. It's incredible to see all of these sign posts along the way. Yeah, but like here's me you know ghost, Caroline, who's not alive yet like no, but Phyllis look at what you can fight, you can fight sexism that prevents women from going to the schools and getting the jobs they want, but she wouldn't blame not getting that federal government job on sexism. Because they weren't telling her. You couldn't get because you're a woman. You couldn't get it because you're not a veteran so her I R- would be pointed toward the government. Okay well in nineteen, forty nine. She marries Fred Fred Schlafly, who is a devoutly Catholic and politically active lawyer and what I? What made me stop in my tracks? Is A line about her wedding vows, and this is a line that would be very much at home in an article about some. You know devout feminist getting married, perhaps in the new. York Times. They write in the New York Times at the ceremony Mrs. Schlafly said she did not promise to obey only to cherish. And that does not sound much like what she would say. In her nineteen seventies anti our a campaign right was all about obeying Fred Yeah because she was a housewife, yeah. And so this this. This little bone that we keep picking up is the same bone that feminists have picked for decades because they say. Phyllis Philly Schlafly Schlafly slap. Oh, girl! Late! Peach laughs you. You are so active and driven. On behalf of yourself, basically and making sure that you get the opportunities that you want. But what about all of the other women? Who does that sound like though? Who has similarly intense hair. Donald Trump does a very as a very similar approach to this wear. Your D-. Reality is moves with the wind. Whatever you know best serves you at that time, and we'll most elevate you then than that's truth. That's your fact whether it is actually fact or not and. She though Pece. Laugh is essentially coated in Teflon, yeah, and it's kind of incredible to see how she does just constantly deflect any criticism and it seems like she. She enjoys receiving this criticism just. I mean she's a total troll. Run off of her, she wants said she told the. New York Times actually in two thousand six in the scale of liberal sins. Hypocrisy is the greatest, and they've always considered me a hypocrite. And go on to say how she defends herself by saying you know I. Never told women that they shouldn't or couldn't work outside the home quote. I simply didn't believe we need a constitutional amendment to protect women's rights. But did did she not advocate for? Housewives Spe- that being the reality well. She certainly advocated for housewives, but she would continually say well. I'm not telling you. You have to be a housewife. I'm just saying that we don't need to devalue housewives and that feminists are trying to undercut in destroy the role of housewives, even though and this is a whole other podcast unto itself Caroline, even though right before ole fill a sunkar claws into the equal rights amendment, a woman and I'm forgetting her name right now because I'm really worked up a woman from the National Organization for Women started this. Relatively successful outreach feminist outreach to housewives and divorced women who suddenly found themselves. You know not really knowing how to support themselves or not really know how to how to grapple with their personal politics and their domestic situation, so it's like so that's another myth. Makes this mythology as she goes. Oh, mythology, that still repeated definitely. Yeah, that feminists want to destroy the home and destroy the family high. No many a feminist who has her own family and children even washes the dishes. I mean like the idea and you know. Of course, that's a silly thing to say, but my point being, but like the idea that feminists are as like a monolithic army are trying to destroy the family and the home I mean it's. It's insane, but it's clearly ineffective tactic. It's clearly effective rhetoric. Oh, yeah, because it's all about stoking fear. That is that's really the name of the game with all of this and. One thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, two. She's just twenty seven years old when her political aspirations get a kick in the pants because. A group of Republicans local Republicans come over to her and Fred's house. They come over to the shafts, and they encourage Fred to run for Congress say there's an open seat in there like Fred. You're the guy you should do it. In Fred's like listen. I'm not really interested, and as the story goes at one point, one of these gentlemen jokingly says Hey, Villa's you should run and fills is like okay. Damn straight. I should run. And she's off from there. I mean she really seizes this opportunity, and she runs and wins the primary, which was huge. But of course she loses in the general election. Yeah, she was in a really. Democratic area way more liberal and I think she was against an incumbent to. Yes, she's yeah, she was and. We read that by the end of that race. Her opponent, her democratic opponent was so livid with the rhetoric. She used about him being this liberal monster that he would not even shake her hand. He was so mad at the stuff that she had stirred up about him, and she wasn't even yet thirty. Already. Stirring that political pot. And one thing that's really interesting. That was we were reading about how her rhetoric and the way that she positioned herself as a woman and politics really sort of echoed. the Selfridge's and women in the progressive era who were in women's clubs. Part of the Women's Club. Movement because you know, remember back then. Women didn't have the vote so if they wanted to agitate an. Be Activists for any causes and help women in any way each other. They had to join these clubs and and band together for things like like daycare, or other other causes that could potentially help families and their communities. And so one thing that she had in common with those early women who were being political, even if they could not be in politics, was that she positioned herself as a woman who would clean up the dirty mess of politics. And it needed cleaning up because it was run by men, and so here she is positioning herself as I'm a woman, and therefore with my natural womanly abilities I'll be a better candidate for you right because that was a suffragette argument of why we should have. Voting Rights and political involvement because of the. domesticity Victorian era idea of woman as the moral center of the hall right, so let let the moral compasses and their vaginas. Come into the political process fellow, so we can clean up after you. We also have to remember too that she was fiercely anti-communist and extremely hawkish on foreign policy to the point that she was like Joe McCarthy level, and maybe even more so anticommunist, and that's really where her focus. Resided for a long time well before she sets her sights on the era, and even after that defeat, though in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty two, she gets up and keeps going. You can tell that this kind of lit a fire for her because she starts stumping around Illinois on behalf of the daughters of the American revolution that she remains super active. And from nineteen, fifty six to nineteen, sixty four, she was president of the Illinois. Federation of Republican. Women, so you can see her starting to gradually. Rise through these organizational ranks, but now we're also seeing her diverted off sort of to the women's auxiliary side of things. And in the meantime in nineteen fifty eight, she and Fred started the cardinal minds, then T. Foundation, which was named for the Roman Catholic leader, who had been tortured and imprisoned by Hungarian Communists. In an effort to educate Catholics on the dangers of communism, and she and Fred were hyper focused on international communism less so on the threat of reds in America like McCarthy was. In a lot of that stems from the fact that she'd been so heavily focused on foreign policy and foreign politics in college, and soon after that she gets a platform in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, two, she hosted a fifteen minute radio show on national security called America wake up, and it was carried by Twenty Five Illinois Station, so she was like a lady Bill O'Reilly in the radio days almost and the same year. Her religious conservatism really ignites further following the Supreme Court decision, prohibiting state-sponsored sponsored prayer in public schools, which is still a massive lightning rod for religious conservatives. Obviously yeah I mean it's almost like she's just kinda gathering up all of her platforms. In the in the fifties and sixties. And then in nineteen, sixty four. Star takes off. Yeah, she referred would refer to this later as her most productive year of her life period, and that's saying a lot considering you know like we said by the age of twenty seven. She was already hyper political so. So, what more could phyllis be doing well? She was talking to the new. York Times is Gina Belafonte about how in nineteen sixty four she was, as we mentioned President of the Illinois Federation of Republican Women, she went to the Republican convention, and she was also stumping on behalf of a Republican candidate for presidential nomination, buried gold, water, and water made his name really by voting against the civil. Rights Act because it was desegregation at the time that was freaking all the conservative white people out and finally here comes Barry Goldwater. Who's like you know what folks? I'll take a stand against this and phyllis was like big old. You might dude. and. She wrote this book more of a pamphlet. Really she read this book. Though called a choice, not an echo about how Barry Goldwater is the, do you? Put all of your Republican support behind, and also how he's the only person who can effectively combat that international communist threat. She self publishes this book and she will brag for the rest of her life. She always says that she sold three million copies out of her garage. And whether or not, that number is accurate it is it definitely? Galvanize this group of similarly white religious conservative Republicans and particularly Republican women. Yes, and it helped launch Barry Goldwater into the presidential race. He got the Republican nomination to run unsuccessfully against Democrat LBJ and You know I was curious about what was in. The book is a biography of him. Is it some sort of inspirational tract of literature talking about Barry Goldwater background, well according to Elizabeth Colbert's not a fan characterization from two thousand five. She wrote that a choice, not an echo was a mixture of fact, sensational accusations, commonsensical truth and elaborate conspiracy theories. That is brought together in a compelling but evidently bogus narrative. errative that still a still remains today, because it poses these very conspiratorial questions that still stoke a lot of angst. Among a lot of people you know on either side of the political spectrum, really At the beginning of the book choice on an Echo, she bullets out questions for readers to think about. Of who really picks the president? Because according to beach, laugh, it's a secret cabal of powerful white dudes. She also asks how political conventions stolen who are the secret kingmakers, and how do hidden persuaders and propaganda gimmicks influence politics I mean if you think that the whole lame stream media Fox News Hatred of the New York Times etc is a new thing. No, no pece laugh in a choice, not an echo was calling out all of those newspapers including the Atlanta Journal Constitution Elliott Yeah as being in on this group of kingmakers okay. And they would selectively report. On the party knowing full well I guess that you know who was really pulling the strings, and that's kind of at the core of vis. Right wing populism of saying you know what they're these there. These secret meetings going on and they just they're gonNA. Turn our country into assessable pool of of secular welfare nonsense. Already because of the new deal, you know they're already terrified him about the new deal. If you and I take the podcast on tour anytime soon, it should just be called. What what did you say? Nonsense. Dealers Cesspool of non. But I mean in this in in this election cycle. We've heard similar refrains from the left. Select their plenty of people who. Are as fed up as as Pece Laugh about kingmakers in the establishment of a right as fed up and also as borderline. Can and slash full-blown conspiratorial but something else. That jumped out to me in a choice, not an echo is how schlafly describes herself how she kind of lays out her author credibility at the beginning of the book, and she says that she's devoted thousands of hours to the Republican Party which is probably true. and. She talks about how she did this at a great sacrifice to her family, because she has six kids and are although she's still at the point is I don't think she has six yet. She's still having babies. But she's on her way to six and. This is in direct contrast to what she'll be saying in the seventies where there is no sacrifice, all of the sudden. It's just what she did. Just as a hobby, it's just easy for me. I don't worry. I still managed to be a fabulous housewife and mother. Did we employ A FULL-TIME HOUSEKEEPER? Yes, but she always brag that they did not employ a nanny. Right and that she home schooled. Until they were seven and that she breastfed all of them. Which I'm surprised. She even said the word breast I didn't. Maybe she just pointed to her boobs and winked. Editor. Kids like the yeah it is. That was something else that comes up in pretty much every profile of her and she breastfed her six children like okay. Okay, what you know, but that's part of her whole perfect housewife image as she cultivated yeah. But even though a choice on an echo was very successful in getting Barry Goldwater to be that year's Donald Trump, essentially and it was very successful for spotlighting a the potential influence of Phyllis Schlafly, because Goldwater lost so starkly. To LBJ the GOP establishment Hashtag dudes. We're like you know what. You're white, right wing, ultra conservative movement stuff like stay in the corner. Obviously, you're not going to help. The Republican Party is a whole, so we're gonNA. Steer things back more moderate and peace. Laugh like we're not going to give you like a position or anything because you're a woman, so just keep doing your your woman thing so she did really get like the sexist shaft from the GOP not surprisingly? So, you're saying that schlafly shaft yes, Schlafly got the shaft, but then schlafly turn around and shaft US oh, yeah, in the seventy S, but we're not even they're not even there yet. Because that's the thing most people's recollection Phyllis Schlafly just starts with the era. You gotTa know all this stuff leading up to it to make it all. Make sense so happened. What has happened. So. Pece, laugh has gotten snubbed. Essentially. She ran for presidency of the National Federation of Republican women because she had been running a state level organization. She went for the national position and they were like Nog girl. You wrote that book in your garage. Good for you, but your candidate loss. Oh! No and that was a huge burn for her. Yo. Yeah, that was a huge burn and she. Manages though to pull a lot of the women in the National Federation of Republican women a way to support her, because she starts publishing in nineteen, sixty seven this weekly newsletter the schlafly report. and it started out with just about three thousand subscribers. A lot of those were women that she had met in this national. Federation of Republican, women as well as women from her other organization that she'd been leading but as we'll talk about in the second half of the podcast she does pull some amazing, political and religious based maneuvering to massively as the number of subscribers. Yeah, and just in the background politically we got to mention that in nineteen sixty six years two years earlier, hyper, conservative racist Barry Goldwater. Lost so famously to Lbj, but that year you start to see conservative Republicans winning some significant congressional and gubernatorial races, including one Ronald Reagan becoming governor of California. So schlafly launching her newsletter, the next year is really banking on the rise of this conservative movement, which up until then had had been this kind of niche pocket of people but she starting to see it mainstream, because really just because like white people were getting really scared about black people and feminists. And three years after Pece Laugh launches the Schlafly. report. She runs for Congress again and fails again. But despite her faltering start. Phyllis, about to bust out. And never looked back. That's right and we're gonNA talk about that when we come right back from a quick break. Okay so a recent study found that a great hair day makes you happier more confident, but that same study also revealed that ninety five percent of women don't feel great about their hair I can definitely relate to the confidence part because my hair is doing something. A little weird, I don't want it to do then. I can't stop thinking about it. The rest of the day Alma Guy we've all been there paintings, rosewater collection feels and smells amazing, and comes with a deep treatment that leaves your hair pedal soft. It was inspired by Ramadan traditions when many in the Middle East break the fast rosewater, because of its hydrating benefits, and the collection is free of sulfates, parabens, dyes and mineral oil. Look really great, thank you. I actually worked in a place for a while that was a sensitive environmentally, and we weren't allowed to use shampoos that had sulfate in them. So that's something that I look for these days and bonus. I love the way that my hair looks now so experience something new and discover. What's good with the Pantene Nutrient? Blends collection. Guys bobby bones I host the bobby bones show, and pretty much always sleepy, because I wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple of hours later I get all my friends together. We get into a room and we radio show wish our allies. We tell our stories. We try to find as much good in the world if he possibly can, and we looked through the news of the day that you care about also your favorite country, artists are always stop them by the hang out and share their lives and music, too. So wake up with a bunch of my friends. I, Ninety eight point seven W M Z Q in Washington DC or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio APP. And now back to the show. So in the early seventies, even though the equal rights amendment had been around for about fifty years She really claims she wasn't aware of it. She didn't was not aware of any massive movement behind it, and it wasn't until she says a friend says. Hey, you should check out this whole era thing. You might be interested in it that she reads it and like. All of the light bulb go off above her head, and she says a Ha- here is the enemy. And for those of you, not familiar with the IRA as I really wasn't until doing research, Kristoff mom never told you it was first introduced in Nineteen twenty-three by Alice Paul at the Seneca Falls Convention and the era, which would have been the twenty seventh amendment if it had gone through, it's very simple and its language it just states equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any state on account of sex. But so essentially it would render gender-based discrimination illegal on a federal or state level across the board. And People today say that if the IRA had been passed and had been ratified I should say. That H-. Cobbling together that women have to do today between title, nine and other state laws and stuff like that it there would not be any of this maneuvering around that we would have to do in light of gender-based or a sexual discrimination because era would've just. In very simple language accounted for all of that. But. Not GonNa. Let that happen even though. The era was widely supported like across the Aisle by Democrats and Republicans. Alike yeah women men ever is like yeah, sure, of course even George Wallace from Alabama who was about as racist as they come was chill with the. Yeah I know. Because I think a lot of people saw it as like well. We already have language in these other various laws and amendments that you know we shouldn't discriminate against women like sure. Why not throw this on the pile? Yeah. I think it was seen as as kind of. Not Toothless, but just like acceptable this to the lady. Yeah, let them have let them have it. Well was not having it was all SHLEF and nineteen seventy-two. She writes about it in the schlafly report dedicates a whole issue to it. And this is what starts the anti feminist campaign against the era and boy. Did she have some ideas about what that simple sentence really meant Oh God? Oh God, yes. She said that the era was going to eliminate sex segregated public restrooms. We still hear that panicked today. It's going to force women into the draft were. Wasn't that just in the news? It's going to dissolve sex crime laws. I got nothing. It's going to remove men's financial responsibilities to be breadwinners or the pairs of child support. Oh more women are becoming breadwinners days. And, she basically considered women as we. As we touched on earlier in the episode, she basically considered women to be this privileged protected class who would lose those privileges and protections? Era went through, and that's why my brain was just collapsing last night as I was researching this stuff because it's like. But if we if we're protected under the law. Through the ER A in the way that the spells out. We won't have to worry about these so-called privileges and protections and what I would call benevolent sexism Oh yeah, but if you aren't stoking worry and fear, how are you going to start this movement Pece Laugh going to. Galvanize her gal and galvanized the Gal. She does because the subscriptions to her newsletter. Shoot up from about three thousand to thirty five thousand thanks to all of this fierce joking that she does not only among women like herself. You know good Catholic housewives, but also among the Evangelical Christian Housewives Ladies Ladies, ladies like we have a lot to worry about in terms of losing those cushy lives that we know, and this is something that I read all the time in stuff I'm never told you youtube comments from men's rights. Activist -I trolls, who? Claim feminists are just victimizing themselves because. In, piche laughs terms like you're a privileged class. People take you out for dinner. You get discounts it happy hours, and you know you have affirmative action. You'll get whatever you want. If you paid me equally then maybe I wouldn't need a discount exactly for your happy hour, man. And this, the thing is though she's starting this. She kind of asserting it out of her garage. She's writing her newsletter. She sending it out. It's very grass roots, and that becomes really the source. Of her political influence and it's her brand yet. Oh, yeah, it's only your brand. The piche left. Brand is all about the grassroots? She has this newsletter base largely comprised of fellow conservative housewives. And once she stirs them up. They start fundraising. They start sending out. There's they start hosting anti era press conferences, and importantly lobbying their state legislatures. They would go carrying loaves of homemade, banana, bread, and Appolos and things like that little goodies, and deliver them to all of the politicians who were going to vote on the era that day and say Oh, we don't. We don't need that. Good Sir have a little apricot. Bread did they put something in? Drugging, their legislators, and then phyllis teams up with north. Carolina Democratic Senator Sam Ervin no relation. In the past couple generations at least who opposed the are a and this allows her whole. Stop Yar a movement to cross party lines. Yeah and keep in mind too that in one thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, three, just a year after schlafly starts going after the era Roe v Wade happens, and so this is of course during up even more angst among conservatives. So then in nineteen, seventy five, we see her. Take her success with developing this stop. Era Group. And Transitioning it into the Eagle Forum, and this is essentially the women's auxiliary of the conservative right wing contingent of the Republican Party at the time and the Eagle Forum, which was twenty, thousand strong in nineteen, seventy five. Lobbied. Politically lobbied four. Conservatism alongside sister groups like how happiness of women and aware, which stood for American women are richly endowed Phyllis is. Beside herself, although I don't know if you could describe someone who is as cool calm and collected as Phyllis ever beside herself, because she's very calculating, she knows what she's doing. Yeah, Oh, for sure and so her major beef, though with the growing contingent of feminists in the US. It is all about how they are messing with the natural order of things that goes back to her assertion that feminist, trying to destroy the family. Yeah, so in one thousand, nine, hundred four Shiro one of many columns, in which she says, feminism is incompatible with human nature. The premise of the feminists is that God goofed in making us two different sexes, and that our laws should remedy his misset mistake and I guess okay I'm GonNa, make this a little personal for a second like I guess. That's why so many of her arguments and similar arguments don't make sense to me because I am not a person who is religious or has God as. A former very inappropriate boss of mine, said to me one time. So like things like that, don't make sense to me saying that there is a natural order in the way that. The biological sexes half to be or the genders have to be yeah, and I'm sitting here across from you not surprised at all. Because a large part of my childhood was spent in Evangelical Churches, and while the passers weren't railing against feminism. Every Sunday there was definitely concern particularly over the homosexual agenda, because that definitely violated in quotes nature, and so that's like a whole other aspect of. Right wing activism and pushes behind their politics that that I simply as a person on the left. Do have because I just. It's not part of my worldview, but it was it so shaped hers, Oh definitely I mean and and part of that, too is attached to her a familiar distaste for east coast, elitists and Liberals and One thing that she really goes on and on about in a choice on an echo is how a Barry Goldwater is the person you should vote for because he has simple ideas, simple solutions whereas LBJ and all these Liberal Democrats they just have these convoluted theories and bureaucratic structures, and they just want to muck everything up whereas. You know it's just it's just nature. It's just man and wife. It's this and that you know it's a very black and white worldview, and that's A. It's a similar thing that we see today where there is this distaste among. Right wing right wing Conservatives for non simplistic answers. Because that challenges, their worldview in a terrifying way, and I mean I also say this from the perspective of. You know being very cognizant even at a young age of how a lot of the rhetoric political rhetoric that I heard in conservative churches. That my parents attended. was just so fierce stoking. You could feel it in the room you know and. It was. Powerful enough to get schlafly where she wanted to go, and in addition to her argument about feminism, being incompatible with human nature. She also. kind of suggested that feminism was out to replace husbands with government. Big Brother, right, so look at you dumb feminist. You're just trying to get rid of the home. Get rid of the family structure. Get rid of the husband who can provide for you. They can be the breadwinners if you just let them, but instead you want to get rid of all that and have the government give to you have the government. Be Your breadwinner and your husband. Accept Welfare and public assistance and things like that and it doesn't this sound like a frustrated just out of college. Phyllis, who can't get a a job in the government because? He has saved all the other jobs for other. Brothers essentially and in the way she puts it. Though in one column, it might have been the same same column from Nineteen ninety-four. She she. She uses sarcasm in rhetorical questions a lot, so she sneers needed job. Big Brother will get you an affirmative action quota position. You don't meet the physical requirements. Big Brother will gender norm. The test results and give you a high score, not satisfied with your salary. The comparable Worth Commission will order your employer to give you a raise, and if you WANNA promotion, the Glass Ceiling Commission will force your employer to give it to you. So. It's just this idea that we are making up these problems and through this group of kingmakers. We you know the government then establishes these committees that just You know give magically give women raises well I. Mean All of her rhetorical questions there go back to her. Emphatic assertion that there is no such thing. Is this patriarchy that oppresses women that women are not oppressed, and then her assertions are directly tied to today's conversations around. Women are making themselves victims well and this next quote about how she describes the relationship between feminism, and the federal government is still reminiscent of what you here today among women against feminism and or anti-feminist, whichever way you want to put it where she says our societal policy should be to let women make their own decisions about marriage and career, without the interference of taxpayer funded Gender Equity Federal busybodies will. So she's trying to have both at the same time you know she's trying to. To. Say that we don't need feminism, but not because. We don't want the best for women, but just because we don't think that anyone should be telling women what to do, so isn't feminism telling women what to do, and so that's why. You know women's shouldn't be for feminism, and yes, it does make you. And I do mean you care. And myself want to slowly bang our heads against the desk and Ditto Betty for Dan. And many other you know second wave feminist of the day all Betty, yeah! Teflon Phyllis managed to infuriate frequent debate opponent betty for Dan to the point where Betty told her that she should burn at the stake. Yeah, and. List. The troll loved it loved it. Oh, yeah, because she was like oh I'm so glad you said that because it just goes to show how NASTY YOU FEMINISTS ARE! And of course, Schlafly had her opinions about Betty for Dan as well. She said I reject all her ideology. She said I reject all her ideology. Most of it based on the absurd notion that the home is a comfortable concentration camp, and the suburban housewife is a rest by her husband and by society, and she loved calling feminist, fat, ugly and unlikable. Which again I'm telling you like reading about laugh is just. Kind of like reading about Donald Trump and a lot of ways isolated TV shows. Yeah, it goes back to my college geology class in which we were talking about feminism, and a fellow student of Mine and I've told the on the Pike House before I a fellow classmate. Raised her hand, and basically said, but if we like men and want to get married. Shouldn't we not agree with any of this stuff and it's like? Washing sound. Is Point completely going over your head 'cause yeah, like the worst thing to some people is to be considered or just called fat or ugly or unlikable. Oh indefinitely. Talking about the seventies. Our Society is still I would not say woke, but it was certainly less woke in the seventies. But. As much as I really hate to keep quoting Phyllis schlafly because. It's never a pleasant thing that you will have to say. I do think it's worth highlighting a few of her positions on feminist issues. Yes, she didn't think that marital rape was thing. NOPE, she said by getting married. The woman has consented to sex and I don't think you can call it rape. On sexual harassment. No big surprise she. Needed Anita Hill and she just thought that that woman was just raking that honorable Clarence Thomas over the coals unnecessarily because she's a feminist and was just sad that he wouldn't take her out on a date so on sexual harassment Schlafly, said quote, non-criminal sexual harassment on the job is not a problem for the virtuous woman, except in the rarest of cases. Yes, so insert victim blaming here well. If you're a virtuous woman, you should have nothing to worry about. What were you wearing exactly? And domestic violence. She said that when marriages are broken by false allegations of domestic violence, US taxpayers four up an estimated twenty billion, a year to support the resulting single-parent welfare, dependent families and I'm like that's your concern. Like. A woman who falsely accuses a man of domestic violence, and then is single as a result because then who's GonNa. Have to pay for that day. Brother, the tax payers you know we're. We're having to fund this welfare state, and really I mean. Pointing out her horrific stances on these kinds of issues is to illustrate how she. Was Not just responsible for stopping the IRA and tracks, which she and stop era and the Eagle. Forum absolutely did. But also in. Essentially building what is today? The ultra right-wing policy platform? It's as if she wrote the script for women to continue to be demeaned and not believed. When it comes to some of these awful issues right, but I mean these are these are like. Political platforms now. If you turn on if you spend some time on Breitbart news actually don't spend some time on Breitbart. News and you'll see all of these similar things. Going on Breitbart guy was one of the men who came after me on twitter. Oh, really yeah. I would breitbart reporter. I'm not surprised. I am not surprised But in Nineteen, seventy eight, we see. Another contradiction to her. Career housewife claim because she goes to law school I mean in a way like if she were anyone else would be like good for her mother of six after the kids grow up, she goes back to law school, and that's what she argues like. I waited until my children were grown. They can take care of themselves. Breath Alvin I, tell you. I breastfed all of them. I really did. and. She completes her law degree at Washington University when she goes to the Bar, her public profile was already like been significant enough that she took it in a disguise. She wore a black wigan her to take her exam, and she passed it well and her husband, and this is another antidote that she would tell and over again over the years that her husband at I did not want her to go to law school and didn't understand why she felt the need to. To and then so she withdrew her application to law school, and then a couple of weeks later he changed his mind and is like you know what it would. Actually having a law background would actually help with a lot of the public policy, work and era fights that you do well and I mean her relationship with Fred is really fascinating and something that I wish we knew more about because I think that's one of the most frustrating things about. Reading up on. Phyllis is that you know that you're not learning about the real phyllis? You know other stuff going on in the background because this is an image that she cultivated for political purposes whereas before she has this shift. Against Feminism in the nineteen seventies, she talks about how during her early marriage with Fred like they would stay up until all hours just brainstorming and talking politics like they courted each other, but through letters, mailing each other poetry, and essentially like many policy briefs, there were like a couple wonks. Yeah, but she played it all down in order to conform to a more palatable interesting submissive image that would fit into also sounds very house of cards, e, yeah, which fit into this mold. That could then elevate her. To the platform that she ended up having witch. In one, thousand, nine, hundred eighty. She used her influence to successfully negotiate with the GOP. To remove its pro E R a platform plank, and this is when we finally see the Republican Party, which previously had a lot of area supporters in it. It wasn't as conservative as it is today by a long shot. We finally see them. Turning that corner as Reagan is about to take over exactly. Yeah, exactly and. June thirtieth nineteen eighty-two. Phyllis holds a party because congressional deadline for states to ratify the Yarra expires, and they were what three states short of ratification, and so from there. She's like cool box checked. Don Now. Let's make sure that we hinder the fight for lgbtq rights for welfare for reproductive rights. Which of course she'd been harping on throughout her anti Era Kim even as she has a gay son. Oh Yeah in nineteen, ninety-two, her gay son was outed. I'm not a fan of people now people at all. I understand the attraction to wanting to out Phyllis schlafly son. But. One of her sons who who lived at least at the time it was reported he was still living with Fred and Phillips, and was still dedicated to the conservative cause and Phyllis. Kind of had to hedge her love for her child and her versus her hatred for homosexuals in their agenda. Oh, yes, the homosexual agenda! Yeah, which just imagine like up, is there. You know you can buy it at office depot. Get a SMOOTHIE. Yeah, they now have an APP the agenda. You can just have it on your phone like a calendar perfect. Yeah, it's really colorful. and. She would continue though throughout the rest of her life to maintain that women were that privileged class, and she offered advice on NPR in two thousand fourteen. To women saying just remember American women are so fortunate. Oh yeah, and I mean yeah, I mean I guess relatively in the grand scheme of. Global privileges well, her version of fortunate is that She always praises men right after she says that we're so fortunate because we have all these brilliant men who invented all of this brilliant technology that allowed us to easily wash our clothes, and we got disposable diapers, and you have all these conveniences that I didn't have growing up and so comparatively. Women are just so fortunate. Need just need to remember that. Don't victimize yourself and. A few years earlier to the New York Times she had said. Feminism has changed the way women think and has changed the way men think, but the trouble is. It hasn't changed the attitude of babies at all, and so that of course is hearkening to her whole feminism violates the laws of nature like babies better. Babies boy babies. No that they should be little baby breadwinners. Babies knowing on some bread. And the funny thing that you know if you haven't picked up on the theme of this episode yet, the funny thing that former now President Karen Crow pointed out in Nineteen eighty-one Wiz that no matter the words that came out of Phyllis schlafly mouth. She. Was a liberated woman, and as the crow says she sets out to do something and she does it to me. That's Liberation Oh. Yeah, and she also. Spotted the gender inequalities that feminism still seeks to uproot at one point in response to that really harsh blow that she took in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty seven, when she lost her bid for the National Federation of Republican Women Presidency she said quote, the Republican. Party is carried on the shoulders of the women who do the work in the precincts ring doorbells, distributing literature, and doing all the tiresome repetitious campaign tasks, many men in the party frankly. WanNa keep the women doing the menial work that is not. something. That should then be followed. Fire Statement of feminist support. It is and that's the confounding thing about Phyllis schlafly up she she encountered sexism and you know. She knew it was sexism because she's calling it out right there recognizing that here the women in the trenches doing all of us grassroots organizing that ultimately has revolutionized American political culture look. Donald Trump today. And yet. She's saying, but you know the dudes don't want to acknowledge it. They just want to keep us in the corner, Yeah. Phyllis is far from stupid. Gilman is not dumb. She's incredibly brilliant and incredibly driven, and she is just driven down a different path. Yeah, I mean, and and the moral of the story is a remember that women are not a monolith, right. Smart Women are not a monolith you know, and also as she always likes to say. They never took me seriously like everyone always underestimated her when she was starting out in her a choice, not an echo era when she was just on the fringes with this. Little Group of ultra conservatives. And she was like you know they didn't see what was coming. And she's She's proud of that because she she kind of. Put One over on us because we were, we were so quick to I think. Liberals were so quick to write off all of a sudden. This who's housewife? And look what she did. She was a wolf in housewife clothing. who like you said completely changed? American politics and I think the final words. We have to leave on our Phyllis schlafly talking to make her saying I always thought I could do whatever I wanted to do. What's the problem? And the what's the problem? Essentially, she's asking that to society of where where's the sexism and that? I can do what I wanted to do and she did. And I think it behooves us. To not underestimate the ripple effect that this woman. Is still having and we'll continue to have. So listeners. Caroline by the way is. Going to have to recover from from this episode. She's a lot of fathom. And she's a she's disappointing. Really I mean she's. She's a terribly disappointing woman to read about if you're sitting where we are. So analysis we want to hear from you. What do you think about Phyllis Schlafly? Her influence and her connection to Donald Trump today, and can we ever undo the damage done by? Phyllis Schlafly Honestly I think the answer is no but listeners. Perhaps you're less cynical. Deny let us know your thoughts. Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address. You can also tweet us at mom, stuff, podcast or messages on facebook and we've got a couple of messages to share with you when we come right back from a quick break. Okay so a recent study found that a great hair day makes you happier more confident, but that same study also revealed that ninety five percent of women don't feel great about their hair I can definitely relate to the confidence part because my hair is doing something. A little weird Sunday I. Don't want it to do then I can't stop thinking about it the rest of the day Alma Guy. We've been there panties. Rosewater collection feels and smells amazing. An comes with a deep treatment that leaves your hair pedal soft. It was inspired by Ramadan traditions in many in the middle. East break the fast with rosewater because of its hydrating benefits, and the collection is free of sulfates, parabens, dyes and mineral oil. Look really great, thank you. I actually worked in a place for a while that was very sensitive environmentally, and we weren't allowed to use shampoos that had sulfate than so. That's something that I look for these days and bonus I love the way that my hair looks now so experience something new and discover what's good with the Pantene nutrient collection. Jordan run talk and I love the Beatles. Hi, I'm Steven Hyden and I prefer the rolling stones. Can we get along? No absolutely not come here. Duke it out on rivals, a new podcast that explores famous music feuds of the past and present every week. Jordan, and I will explore new rivalry delving into all the dirty details about our beloved musical icons, who just can't seem to get along with their federal legends, and then we'll debate each other about who deserves have the upper hand in these classic conflicts is big versus to pop. Versus Blur I can't wait to argue with you about Stevie Nicks versus Lindsey Buckingham how about Kanye West and Taylor Swift Team Konya, all the way seriously after such a jerk detailer, the two thousand nine, the as you, standing up for beyond say Jordan. Yeah right see what we mean. Join US on. Rivals podcast from iheartradio. Listen now and follow on the iheartradio APP, apple, podcasts or wherever you listen to this. And now back to the show. All right Why have a letter here from him? In response to our MINSTREL Cup episode She says I started using the keeper in two thousand after hearing about it from a CO worker in the United States Coast Guard. Serving on ships, it was difficult to use pads and tampons. As four hour watches didn't not lend themselves to products lasting more than three or so hours, not being able to use the restroom. In that time, the keeper was a lifesaver. No Pun intended I had times when I would be on watch for up to twelve hours, and not having to worry about an accident was beneficial I made sure to talk with every woman who was assigned about this wonderful product. It was easy to get over this quick factor after a few times, and not having to carry extra products that up to twelve hours window is the selling point. I used a latex brand version and mine lasted ten years I replaced it with the silicone version, which ironically again no pun intended turned a similar shade of Brown from the blood staining, and he way love the podcast I've learned so much and laughed even more keep up the awesome sauce work. Thanks, Kim So is that why? The keeper is Brown? Navy I still maintain to be read. Well I have a Menstrual Cup letter to read from Allison who wrote I was so excited to hear your recent podcast on Menstrual Cups was fascinated to hear their long and storied history. I was so disappointed, however at the comments you received when you posted an article on facebook about the reasons, Menstrual Cups Aren't more popular. There were countless comments many for men like gross. You didn't need to see that and I can think of a lot more than four reasons and no things that made me realize. We haven't really come that far from the days of the. The red tents women's bodies are still seen as dirty which just makes me sad and not to get too hyperbolic, but my cup has changed my life, I initially chose a cup for both environmental reasons and practical reasons, I'm a swimmer swim, instructor, and Tampons, or just not always the best choice for long sessions in the pool I have endometriosis with severe cramping was pleasantly surprised to find the actually lessened my cramping pretty significantly I'm not sure why exactly, but my theory has something to do with the way the cervix is positioned while the cup is inserted. To anyone who has tried to cuff and not found them to be ideal. Please don't give up. The First Cup I tried was too large and too firm, causing painful pressure on both my bladder and my cervix. I did some research before I bought my second one, and it's now seriously a perfect solution to an otherwise painful time of the month for me. Well, thanks for the Info Allison, and yeah, it is always pointing to. See People on social media. ACT, like children and Over something that is a natural bodily function. So listeners. We'd love to hear from you. Mom stuff at how stuff works dot com is our email address and for links to Oliver. Social media as well as all of our blogs, videos and podcasts with our sources, so you can learn even more if you dare about Phyllis Schlafly, head on over to stuff. Mom Never told you dot com. For more on this and thousands of other topics visit how stuff works. Dot Com. So! Here's something that some of you might find shocking number. Five percent of women don't feel good about their hair, but pantene is changing fat paintings. Rosewater collection combat's bad hair days with an innovative formula that uses rosewater derived from the pedals and buds of the Rosa Galaxy Plant with paintings, rosewater collection I can really feel how much more hydrated my hair is, and it's sulfate Paraben die and mineral oil free, which makes me feel good because they're needs. All those additives experience something new and discover what's good with the Pantene nutrient blends collection. The btk killer Dennis Rader was dogcatcher married with children Wayne. Casey doubled as a clown at children's birthday. Parties Ted Bundy was a law student they all. In I'm Nancy. Grace host of podcast crime stories with Nancy Grace and our new original concept killers amongst us where we break down the evil crimes and focus on unsolved homicides year crime stories with Nancy Grace on the iheartradio, APP or wherever you get your podcasts.

Phyllis schlafly Fred Fred Schlafly Schlafly Donald Trump Barry Goldwater Schlafly schlafly New York Times phyllis Republican Party Phyllis Philly Schlafly Echo Nineteen Seventies twitter federal government Federation of Republican Phyllis Schlafly. Carolina National Women Fred Yeah Phyllis Oh
Steve Schmidt Civics and citizenship are active sports, they require participation

Stephanie Miller's Happy Hour Podcast

39:58 min | 2 months ago

Steve Schmidt Civics and citizenship are active sports, they require participation

"I know what you're thinking Steph. Where can I get another fucking podcasts? Besides this fucking happy hour about to listen to the BILL PRESS POD BILL. Press pod okay. It's not called that. But he did. Drop a few expletives on our regular little family friendly friendly morning show. I feel like he's better to RUN FREE IN THE BILL. Press Pot meant to be yes just says bill press pod but you and I both know it means bill fucking prints. It's free range bill. Bill fucking press has a podcast. It is still the same. The same cuddly. Bill that you love with all the top Progressives Right Congress people senators you name it Newsmakers in Washington. Dc daters. Yeah thank you with water. Cooler Talking Rebuttal Political. Thought about okay. you listen to drops twice a week right. You'll hear bill interview leading progressives like maxine waters. Eric Swallow Jerry. Brown peop- footage hold a weekly roundtable with three of Washington's top political reporters. That's why I subscribe to the Bill Press Pot and you should too go wherever you go to. Listen to your podcast. Search FOR THE BILL. Press pod no matter what occurs you will find him Cook unsubscribe and then tell your friends to the same. Join me friends. As a surprise to Bill Press Pot and now here we go back come down. Happy Happy Hour. This is so exciting. Steve Schmidt political consultant extraordinaire joins US Steve Okay. I'm going to try to calm down and not freak you out but first of all. Do you know my dad ran with Barry Goldwater in nineteen sixty four. Did you okay so I? I don't want to call them daddy issues but a long for the days principled. Republicans like you when you get going on your rants on MSNBC. I you're just such a patriot. I just I can't tell you how much it resonates with me. Thank you very much. It's nice listen. We have a love hate thing because there's a whole period where I hated you because you are so good at what you do but I mean this not only you said this when you renounce the Republican Party and became independent as I. This is not only not you can go back. Not Reagan's Party this is not my dad's Party goldwater party. I mean you can go back. This is trump's party as you said when you renounce the parties are this is fully Donald Trump's party now. It's a trump party book more than that. It's it's any American in the sense that it's a cult of personality we. We've not seen very many political cults of personality in this country over the entirety of our history. I think culturally ideologically. I imagine this is what it would have been. George Wallace became president. That's that's really. What trump races wallace's it's a southern evangelical early infused and by Southern Evangelical confused? I I don't mean good people. Faith I mean the Pharisees Season The temple the Jerry Falwell Juniors the Franklin. Graham's not in the White House is spiritual advisor Pastor Haggi and the recipes and it said that fusion culturally mixed in with White Grievance Dash of populism in a time where globalization and automation and artificial intelligence putting downward pressure on so many working class communities so many working class jobs even before Kobe. Did you know he's a grievance candidate mean? You know Reagan whether you agreed or disagreed with Ronald Reagan. Reagan was fueled by optimism. Right in that optimism one him and election with forty nine states trump is on his fueled by grievance and in that grievance culture. There's no no one allowed to be a bigger victim than Donald. Trump is playing the role of victim and chief every day every hour blaming somebody for as abominable failures of leadership and his totaling competency and ineptitude. And so that's the that's the hour we live in now. Which is you know very different in different than what we've ever had before that is one of the love phases of your yours and my love hate. Relationship is when I was eight. Twenty one year old college kid. I voted for Donald Ronald Reagan. So when I was daddy's girl and I assumed I was a republican to so right but it just it seems like a million years ago in terms of just as you always put it on twitter and on TV just it. We've just never seen anything like this. You Bet no future. President will ever hang trump's portrait in the White House it will be impossible to shower even false praise. On the most vile of men. His presidency will be like Chernobyl something to be sealed off a poison to be contained. And that's what I would think and I can't speak from my Dad Steve. He's been gone since eighty-three but he was a Nurnberg prosecutor. I can't imagine. He was chairman of the Republican Party. I can't imagine him hearing trump. Say there's very fine people referring to Nazis Charlottesville. I mean we just. We lost this league in terms of just what kind of man he is. I can tell you what kind of man my dad was. And it's like you and John. Weaver and Rick Wilson and all the guys that have renounced the Republican Party and trump because basically because of the kind of manny forget president right. He's just a despicable human being for. Sure he he embodies all of the anti virtues. He's Selfish. He's saying he's narcissistic. He's in it for himself. We've never seen a president. Who's more corrupt? We've never seen a president. Nita moment of crisis is incompetently as this one has but all of his defects and they fall. Basically if you were to generalize the three categories. She's he's proven himself to be intellectually deficient. He's mentally deficient. I mean somebody who gets up there and says that the way you deal with Khurana viruses to inject yourself for disinfectants and he's morally deficient. He's he's unable to process that we have one hundred thousand data. Americans will have many more the collective grief that we feel as a country. I it doesn't touch his heart at all. He has an incapacity for leadership at at every level. And so we see the spiralling dishonesty the fantasy that everything will be recovered by the fourth quarter and we realized that Joe. Scarborough has pointed this out. I take a brilliant Washington Post column and he talked about it on Morning Joe this morning. Which is how did the country that has half of the world's Nobel Prizes for Science and math in the last fifty years while seventy years since one thousand nine hundred fifty. How can this happen here? Most most advanced country in the world the place of invention in science where the epicenter with four percent of the world's population of a global pandemic that you have more chance of getting it in the US more chance dying from it in the US not every economy around the world to shatter because of this shattered because of trump's credible ineptitude and and responding to it so all of the virtues that you're that you're talking about of that generation the generation that grew up in the depression that at fought in the war as we approach Memorial Day as we approach another anniversary of the D Day invasion his his Anna theoretical to every sensibility of what leadership look like what competency look like of what. American character look like and so we stand on the edge of this new RANCID ERA. Donald trump putting his case forward for re election. I think one of the most consequential elections in the country's history since eighteen sixty four. We had a big choice for the direction of the country. We decided that election whether we'd be a country at all or not. Well now you brought up a sore spot. You Know Steve. I have to say I gotta ask though because my liberal friends have already hated me that I vote for Reagan. I don't know how many years ago that was but I mean why are you guys so much better at this early in our side. These Lincoln Project ADS. You guys know how to go for the jugular. That's what I feel like. Democrats need to learn to fight the way you guys do because obviously hated. You're on the opposite side of campaigns but these Lincoln project ads are obviously making them go insane. The morning in America spelled absolutely as morning. Not Reagan's morning but you know that said we are sicker and poorer how we can even be having a discussion. Steve as both sides do it and is he doing a good job when we have a hundred million Americans dead and forty million out of work or will be to that shortly. How are we having a discussion as to whether you know you're better off today right the CA- campaign question? You ask every cycle. Well you all elections you know fundamentally come down to do you want to change direction. Where do you want more of the same in? It's very difficult to imagine what the case for more of the same as a matter reality so you see a number of national polls right now that show Joe Biden enough eleven points you see. Trump's numbers collapsing with key demographics corrupt collapsing in the swing states. But mostly the country looks at this in size that this is not what a winner looks like. This guy's a loser and and I don't mean this I don't mean this from I don't mean this to name call i. He's an embassy. And that's and I use that word because that's the that's the word that describes most surgically his behavior throughout this entire crisis in the English language. You know through the French president. I'm sure we'd have to find the appropriate French word to do. But that's the word in the English when you look over and over again about the things to come out of his map and people look at this and people will tolerate crazy in this country. And they'll be entertained by so long as you're winning. And there's no argument to be made at the country's winning and so they see someone up there every day fumbling around slurring. His words talking nonsense contradicting himself. Misinforming the public. He puts on a clinic of confidence. He gets up there. You tire countries locked up in home and he talks about. How great is ratings? Are Ox about how everyone is to blame but hand that he's not responsible for anything and this is the guy. When there were fifteen cases in this country said it would also be gone praised Chinese handling of it and I just think that sometimes people say these moments. We'll say. This isn't a time for Powell. This this city central time for for politics in a country of the people by the people for the people we have to make A. We have to make a decision. We have to understand people we put it in the office. People sit behind the resolute desk that life and death decisions get made in that space in that in that office because Donald Trump sits behind that desk the man who said Alan Confection. I'M GONNA make America great again. Because he says behind that desk we have suffering and death tens of thousands more than would otherwise men we have economic collapse and we divided country. That can't even look at each other and agree on what reality is now. That's the deadly cost of this guy in the Oval Office. He's having a have a war not just against this virus but against facts science truth. Do you ever have that panic when some facetime right but you have enough rings on time to get your Exeter on Titan for you answer throat. Okay plexus term. We love it all the sexy liberals use it. It's just a little DAB will do you and it makes me feel better. Do not underestimate that in quarantine right in lockdown wherever you are yes to feel better every once in a while the horrifying things you need to see yourself on those zoom calls. I love it. It is an amazing clinically. Studied serum goes on clear. Nobody even knows you're using it but it works like magic right. Did it get it do it for yourself clinically studied serum it works amazingly? And you look you just look like Uber. Ten years younger go to play DOT COM. You gotta get ready for the virtual tour can be able to see you too. Yes yeah go to TRIPLEX DOT COM. Use My code voices for half off a full-size bottle of Exeter and plus an additional ten dollars off half off plus an extra ten dollars off what call eight hundred six eight five one two nine to mention the code voices plexiglass backed by a thirty day. Money Back Guarantee Visit TRIPLEX DOT com type invoices that is the CODE VOICES TRIPLEX DOT COM. And you brought up. That he's a loser. I know you're tough guy. I can tell you must have cried when he called the Lincoln Project The losers project I imagine you. You wept silently. We're delighted to be work. Delighted to be engaged in conversation about the realities the worst president this country's ever had. I don't say that I don't say that light. I mean in fact the greatest country the greatest president to countries ever had Abraham Lincoln followed until now the man who was indisputably the worst you can and so it took a long time to displace James Buchanan is the worst president in the Union's history but Donald Trump is not these been an abomination as as president of the United States. And and and we stand now as a country whether you're a Democrat whether you're a Republican whether you've you voted for both we stand an hour of American weakness. I'm forty nine years old but boy. I can't in any of our lifetimes and anyone who's of adult age. Who's listening to this to this? Broadcast from from a on IT IS UNIMAGINABLE. The the the profound national humiliation that this moment has peeled back the weakness of this country of our of our system. It is extraordinary that this is the United States in in twenty twenty and it's tragic and allies or terrified by or adversaries or cheered by everybody around the world basically collectively Holy Shit. What what happened here. And that's why you have. These groups of world leaders gathered together in a circle laughing at Donald Trump. Yeah laughing with under laughing at him they look at him as a buffoon. And as You well you endorse Conway and John. Weaver and Rick Wilson Rojas Americans. We must stem the damage. He and his followers are doing to the rule of law the Constitution the American character. I'm I will make you speculate on what's going on with George Conway's marriage but let's talk about the up. That's just I cannot imagine people still whether it's Kellyanne conway or anyone else still defending this. What is happening this American and Steve? It's not just carnage it it is I think criminally negligent genocide. As you said this is could have been prevented right. We've all seen these studies done something one week earlier even two weeks earlier i. This is completely preventable. Health Crisis Right. This is not something we just randomly got attacked with. No warning right. Genocide is the wrong word. You know you he is is he sees. His negligence is deadly steadily. And you know this is somebody who refuses to read won't read their stories and I think Washington Post this week about how the intelligence agencies go to extraordinarily ordinary. Lang's you know. I think trying to brief him on information. It reminds me of the opening scene from Jurassic Park. When they're trying to move the velociraptor right these extraordinary strategies right to get the president of the United States to pay attention to essential information. So he won't read doesn't do his homework doesn't do his job so at the moment in time when he was being warned about this when he was being advised about it is is he is it is not possible to penetrate the frontal lobe of Donald Trump. Because he knows that. And so you have a person who can consume. Who's in the most intense decision making job in the world the presidency of the United States? And that's what this election's about right is a totally capacity to problem solve to be able to crisis manage to be able to deal with complexity and nuance. He doesn't have the intellect he doesn't have the mental stamina. He doesn't have the moral dimensions. Required to lead a country like the United States. And that Inet piece Steve To. It's not just that he doesn't listen. He brings in some conspiracy theories from friends and tells them back to the intelligence people. And so but as you say that's American national security. That's why there's almost one hundred million of us or however many dead and one hundred hundred thousand and forty million people out of work because I he goes off conspiracy theories or whatever he thinks makes him look good. We have to play the new Lincoln Project. Add because he's just you and you of course Erin on Fox News. Were you know he's going to see it? And you know exactly how to go for the jugular and everyone needs on our side. Needs to learn a lesson from how Steve Schmidt plays okay. Let's take a listen Brad? Par Scout Dead. The man trump can't win without Bradley's getting rich. How rich really rich don't tell. Donald Eat. Wonder how Brad can afford so much a two point. Four Million Dollar Waterfront House in Fort Lauderdale to Florida condos worth almost a million each. He even has his very own yacht. A Gorgeous Ferrari a sleek range rover Brad brags about using private jets own my a star and why not brad for every dollar. Just ask him. Wow Oh my God I'm GonNa make it through the weekend after this. You know I it extrordinary right in a in a Phalanx of scammers and miscreants that that a bound the trump imperial see in in Washington right. This guy is taking money for the P. loans adopt. Sorry the PGA loans. I I joked around last night on. Tv quoted my good friend Stuart Stevens. He described it. Like this is like the last days of Elvis where Carl Parker and everyone is suffering full peanut butter and banana fried sandwiches off with the money. That's what it's like. Yeah Yeah Iot your your mouth. To God's ears Steve. Let's talk about first of all again you were. He was such a storied career. I loved I loved you as woody. Woody Harrelson is you in game change but you're also a Republican. Admit when you're wrong. You're like maybe Sarah Palin not the best idea but I mean this is also this guy can never admit he's wrong can never take responsibility for anything which is so dangerous in the Oval Office. Right for sure. Look taking responsibility. Accountability the ability to learn from mistakes to process information at this elementary stuff and he has an incapacity for it always always has but near you can have the person with the most responsibility in the world. Have an absolute allergy to the concept of it. You and you know. Obviously this must have gotten so personal for you a long time ago. But as John McCain's senior adviser I mean again I agree with John McCain on a lot of stuff but fully decent man Patriot and the the way trump went after him even after he was dead was just I. You have so many new cycles CONKLIN. How how can the American people accept someone attacking a genuine war hero like that? Well what Winston? Churchill made the observation that in a democracy people get the government they deserve and so you know civics in citizenship are action sports. You know they. They require participation. And you know I think when you look at Donald Trump's performance over these last couple of years you look at desecration of the dignity of the office of the President of the United States is comport. Man is lack of probity rectitude. All all these are these are appalling characteristics and no healthy society can can make it with with without any virtues that are celebrated right the things in John's life and he was a complicated guy you know to say To say the least and in the last thing I think the John McCain would ever want is to be sainted right He was he was magnificent in so many raise because of how flawed he was right that has been even as flaws in my mind. Were were great but the things he for right you know why why was it. The John McCain touched right Americans right what what was it is we celebrated you know the McCain wife at the at the ad right when what is it that were celebrate. Right we're celebrating guts and toughness courage patriotism love of country sacrifice and the the the things that McCain stood for forgiveness weeding alongside John Kerry under President Bill Clinton right the veteran who protested the war the protest or didn't go to war the sound of the admiral who refused to come home early. Those three men restored relations with Vietnam so forgiveness and redemption also part of the McCain legacy things that mckean stood for our all virtuous things in there is necessary in the life blood of a nation as oxygen and water for Plant Life. It's elemental and an in. We can't as a country look at Donald Trump and be proud of how he represents us because he disgraces his office in doing disgraces our national honor in the American and he does all the. Let's focus more on the hate. Part of our love hate relationship. Stevie met and not only worked on McCain's campaign course. But George W Bush Arnold Schwarzenegger out here in California Here's the part you were deputy. Assistant to councillor to Dick. Cheney part of the senior Strategic Planning Group led by Karl Rove that random window w Bush's re-election pain you oversaw that reelection war room or the White House strategist responsible for the US Supreme Court nomination of Samuel Alito. And and John Roberts but again I it seems like you guys even said of the Lincoln Project. You're like you don't even care there's got to be part of you. Oh in terms of a blue wave. But you're like we got a we. Don't care or flip. The Senate get worse seats in the House. We've got to take this country back. We gotTa Take Sanity Back Right. I mean I look forward to the day that I can hate you again and we can argue about actual about polcy political. Y'All thing exactly how I'd rather. I'd rather live in an America dominated by progressive policy. That trump is stan where the rule of law is out the window. And we've become a third rate Ananta Republic which is a trajectory. He's got that he's got the country on in so his a liberalism bothers me profoundly and let me let me make this point We we have to political parties in a in the country major parties and those two parties are respectively the first and the third oldest political parties in the world and they are two of the most important institutions for the advancement of human freedom and dignity in the history of the world. They're they're they're not just import American institutions institutions. They vote produce the right people in the right moments to lead the nation and ours our greatest president the nineteenth century. I would argue the greatest in our history Lincoln. The first Republican president in the Union that he saved went on to save the world with the leadership of the Greatest Democratic president of the twentieth century. The greatest president century. Fd FDR. And so. I I've never looked at the party's from even when you're running campaigns. The Democratic Party is all wrong. The Republican Party's entirely virtuous that my view that coming up in the eighties is the Republican Party. For me was was was more of a fit more of a home and I thought was slightly more right in the Democrats. Were but let me tell you something that Ronald Reagan who has inscribed on his tombstone these words. Which are you know in my heart? I know that man is good in the end. What is right and triumph over what is wrong. And there's purpose on worth in every human life that doesn't sound like trump is to me. I have no doubt how these men would vote in election between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. If you understand anything about these people and so the we we're in this rancid terrible era. Our our democracy is being eroded we're seeing corruption institutionalized at at at deepen epic levels and so in a month where the government goes out and spends three trillion dollars. I don't even know what it means to be a limited government conservative anymore country. Now of forty million unemployed people in went with this. This entire episode has done is peeled back out. Dysfunctional and backwards country is compared to so many countries in the in the world. The response to this crisis incompetence of this administration should shock the conscience of every Republican every Democrat in anybody who wants to see the United States remain as strong and vibrant. Powerful country cannot Abai. I think another four years of the trump presidency because there has never been a period of time where this country has been weakened. Were quickly that it has during his tenure. I feel like I'm watching on. Msnbc WORRY I don't want to know the details. But I make noises and I stand up and cheer and throw stuff. Well Literati the number one subscription book club for kids now in quarantine more important than ever Stella tweeted staff of the best sponsors. I just ordered Literati for Jack. Who's my surrogate grandson? I lost my sister last year to cancer. My best friend my northstar. Her one request she was dying was to take care of Jack and her kids as if they were my own. I do you send it to your nephews. I send it to my ex Lisa in her newborn and everybody's raving about them. He was so excited he'd like wind guys books and showed him to us on facetime. It was amazing. I got the pictures of them. You've got to get literati libraries. Schools Bookstores are closed. Literati has you covered with something. Truly unique every literati box contains five books based on a theme with exclusive original art personalized. Not just to your child do it now for a limited time. Go TO LITERATI DOT COM slash. Stephanie for twenty five percent off your first to subscriptions bizzare best offer available anywhere to literati dot com slash. Stephanie Twenty five percent off I to subscriptions Literati Dot Com Slash Stephanie. Terms and conditions apply. But before we get back to hating each other again disagreeing. I don't think you answered the question. I seriously want to know. Why are you guys so much better at this? Why do you think in some ways? Democrats don't Bite don't I don't want you to give me all your secrets because then I'm going to use them against you back when we hate each other but y you know what I'm saying like when I love Michelle Obama but when they go low I go down in my basement because we're not in a normal era and I feel like you guys are so these ads are just like oh Bam and I feel like not all but some Democrats just don't seem to know how to fight the way you do. Well I don't I don't know I've I've spent a fair amount of my career era against the Democrats in in in have lost elections nude on my. You know look we. Are you know this? This group is committed to you. Know putting forward in arguing. You May. That's accurate that's correct edge defensible about what's going on in the country and that's that's what we're trying to. That's what we're trying to do right. We're trying to communicate to people with some of the iconography of the Republican Party. That with what's in front of them is not okay right that that appearance to the tribe is grey so long as it doesn't damage the country when it damages the country you're in going back to the Goldwater campaign in the famous. Reagan speech. You're at an hour. Choose your in a time of choose. An Americans including people have never voted for Democratic candidate are going to have to make a choice not choice. November's between a really bad man. Donald Trump and really good man Joe Biden and he is a good man between an honorable man and dishonorable man between a competent man and incompetent man between a divisive leader in between a unifying leader between a man who has no empathy in. His heart has no courage in his soul. Between a man who has empathy in spades in has deep courage that we've all seen play out through the story of his life and his service in his grief in all our living rooms as we're with our families and we understand that we can have an admirable man as president or we can have somebody that the entire world laughs and that's situation ahead and it doesn't matter right weather. You've been a registered Republican or Democrat or an independent. The right plan is not to have somebody. Who'S A serial? Liar and enterprise editor corrupt his house serving in the office degrading our civil liberties our vital institutions in pitting. Americans against each other in a cold civil war. See this is why I'm a gay woman and I think I might be in love with you. I'm sorry I don't mean to be an appropriate Stephanie. Patriotism my father had there was a generation Steve Schmidt where they said we got to hit the beaches Normandy and they were like okay and now you're like I have to wear a mask fuck you. I would need haircut this. I just can't believe the debates were even having a by the way you have a gay sister and you. This is why I love. You spoke out for gay rights way longtime ago you said on a personal level my sister and her partner important part of my life and our children's life you were way out there ahead for marriage equality in Barry Goldwater. Let's go full circle to my dad's running late right the famous. You don't D- gays in the military. You don't need to be straight. You just need to shoot straight. He has a gay grandson. I mean I it's you're right. It's there's something about just getting back to WHO. We are as Americans. I think that I think people are craving for sure and in marriage I always. I always thought gay people had the right to be as happy as everybody else. But I get a questioning when I talked to you. Let's not dwell on that Steve. My point is but you make me feel happy. You tweeted trump is unworthy to preside over a ceremony to hang President Obama's portrait in the White House when President Biden presides over that ceremony. I hope all of the former president trump will be there it will be a restored of Act. It will be a reassertion of dignity and decency. I don't WanNa get happy copy but it feels like you really believe binds going to win that we are despite God knows what voter suppression Russia etc. That the polling that we're seeing now will hopefully bear out. I have I have faith in in the country and I mean that I don't think in the end that the country wants to another -nother four years and It is it is trump wears yet and I think one of the things to understand. Is that in any type of contest right. There's there's only two ways to to win right you can. You can win you. Can you can win by By forcing capitulation domination on your account I think Germany and Japan after after World War. Ii You bring your opponent to submission. The other way to win is to bring your opponent to exhaustion. Think about Vietnam in the United States during the during the Vietnam War Trump exhaust people right. It's not normal in a democracy for the president to be omnipresent right or the newscast to be entirely focused on one person is if no other event plays out in the world and so no people. You can tell this right when this stuff comes on. Cnn for example in the airport right people just moving away from the TV. They WANNA THEY WANNA turn it off right. Everybody's dealing with crazy relatives on facebook and on social media and it comes into the family and I think that there's just a heavy burden for this period of time I think there's tremendous anxiety in the country. Tremendous uncertainy in the country of jarring of the country including in states like Pennsylvania and Michigan that narrowly gave it to say. No I doing this for four more. Were four more years and said I'm and I do. I do have confidence that it'll be defeated but nobody. Nobody should take for granted and nobody no matter how bad job he does should discount the power of his propaganda networks. Yeah The sophistication of his campaign operation and his capacity for demagoguery dishonesty. Literally do anything to try to remain in power real quick before we go not to dwell on vice presidential picks in the past. Who Do you think he's GonNa pick? Who showed he pick? He needs to pick somebody. Who's ready to be president of the United States on day? One and act can Augmon a a narrative of restoration competency. And obviously it's a it's an important pick because know that that person has a likelihood of being a future nominee of the of the party and and certainly will represent a moment of of generational changes. Already I I was. I was wrong about this for years ago. Which was in? This would be the last election to baby. Boomers ran against each other And that's that's not the case but this will be the last election in in American history where we have to to Dave overs running against each other so it. It will be packed that I think is likely to be. I think is a tremendous chance. That'll be a woman is tremendous chance that could be a minority woman but it has to be someone who the country will look at say. This person who's ready to fulfill the new of the of the oath of office. And who do you like? Who Do you like for the if it were if you were advising? Oh now I feel like I'm cursing them look. There's there's cases to be made for Elizabeth Warren Anderson case to be made for Comma Harris. There's a case to be made for Senator Klobuchar. There's a case to be made For the Michigan Governor. There's there's a number of you know of of of choices out. There that are that are attractive choices but you know look you know they gotta be able to get through the vetting. They have to be able to perform on a national stage. They gotta be able to take the fight but I will say this you. Comma Harris I think has demonstrated and you know she'll she'll do well in the debates as as we You know the to prosecutors and I do think as you said you gave us some compliments you think one thing. The Lincoln project is doing his prosecuting. A case against trump mad. You think the democratic nominees spe- somebody who can prosecute a case against trump and I and I think the two of the most effective prosecutors three the most effective prosecutors in the party are worn club. Chara in Harris Absolutely Steve. When I hear you talk I just I hear this. I hear battle him in the background. Whenever hear you speak on the Denby see here thank you thank you. Thank you for using your voice in your patriotism for the Lincoln Project. This was as inappropriate as this was. It was not nearly as inappropriate as I wanted it to be because I love you. I think you're doing tastic work and thanks for taking time for us. Thank you thanks to you.

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America in Crisis: How is 2020 like 1968?

Policy Matters

16:42 min | Last month

America in Crisis: How is 2020 like 1968?

"United States confronts up perfect storm that go bid. Nineteen pandemic has killed well over one hundred thousand Americans a ghastly tally rising every day. The unemployment rate is reaching heights, not seen since the great, depression and the appalling killing of George floor as triggered massive national protests against lease policies in specific and racism in general. Many have compared to current moment to nineteen, sixty eight another year of mass protests and national instability. How is twenty twenty like nineteen sixty eight? Was it different? And what lessons can we draw from the comparison? welcomed. Policy Matters Quainton perspectives from rice university's Baker Institute for Public Policy. I'm Joe Barnes Baker. Institute fellow in today's host. Our guest is Dr Alan Madison. Upper Madison so is the Baker Institutes Academic Affairs Director. Joined the rice faculty in Nineteen Sixty Three And is a distinguished historian and an expert on post World War Two America. Now, Joe. There's been a lot of talk parallels. Today in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty eight. How is the situation similar? And how is it different? Well there are similarities The year begins with two unpopular presidents who was assumed were running for reelection. And then proceeded to be a series of of dramas national promise that Absolutely. upset everyone's anticipation for that year. And led to massive seachange in the nature of American politics, so in that sense are similar years years of of trauma years of major political change. It's like all other historical comparisons, bobby. The differences are more significant than the than the similarities of. You mentioned the. TRAUMAS of this year. Which is the? Cloven epidemic, the collapse of the economy in the massive demonstration's. Of you take them one at a time, as for example, the pandemic. There was a pandemic of nineteen sixty eight. It was a Hong Kong flu. Gannon Asia. in July came to the United States peaked in December. A lasted for a year job, one hundred thousand Americans and if you look in the papers, you'll find. Maybe it's on page twenty eight. So. There was a pandemic Ben. was, a serious one and it hardly dented the public imagination entirely different from today. The economy was not an issue of nineteen, sixty, nineteen, sixty eight was a year prosperity low unemployment the. Income disparities were much narrower than today. Is simply did not play a part in in in the election of nineteen, sixty eight worst It's a fundamental issue and the third of events that you mentioned in these massive demonstrations in there were certain massive demonstrations in nineteen sixty eight, but they are entirely different character. And whereas these demonstrations seem to point to a sea-change toward the left. A massive demonstrations of nineteen, sixty eight, and those that preceded it actually. Began the massive shift of the electric toward the right, so yeah, there's some similarities but I think the differences are more interesting. Nineteen sixteen was an astonishing year for political turmoil in the United States and the Johnson decided he wasn't to run shock. Everybody in the United States, a major candidate for the Democratic nomination, Robert Kennedy was assassinated and those. Third Party candidate in George Wallace the new emerge at the top of the seat in November nineteen sixty. It was worth Richard Nixon. And just six years before that he was just a has been right nineteen, sixty two, he was completely written off in sixty eight. He becomes president, states. With how the current turmoil might shape November elections. Well? Sitting here, you can make predictions and they would certainly not a favor. President. Trump a I'm very hesitant to make any predictions about the election because as I like to say about elections, contingencies are decisive, and there are so many possible contingencies between June and November that. You'd hesitate to make a prediction, but. Nonetheless. All of the indications are moment that there is a sea change in American public opinion that'll take trump at out of office. That said do knows. Is Similar. See changes were driving Johnson and Democrats out of out of office and they. They benefited Richard Nixon. It's not true that Nixon exploited. Race and sixty eight. He separated himself from the Democrats, but he did it in a very circumspect fashion. He led Wallace throw. Oil onto the fires Nixon state pretty much above the fray and collected the benefits. It's called are to imagine president trump pointing the incredibly shrewd and sophisticated approach of Richard, Nixon. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty eight. There's little evidence of there. There was a you might have seen us in the Times this morning. An article about how Trump? Is He's in flexible. He can't change unless he changes you would. You would predict serious trouble. Well. I mean Nixon. Was a man quite prepared to change? Nixon was white prepared to adjust. His approach in the face of changing circumstances wasn't. Well, you remember. They're always talking about the new Nixon. And there must have been you know fifteen or twenty of them during his career. What was the legacy of nineteen sixty eight? You mentioned political legacy a little bit, which was the shift to the right American politics. What was the broader social legacy? Sixty. Nine, hundred, sixty, eight, really was a decade in which middle class values. Traditional middle class values were under attack. and. There's a sexual revolution. There's Taylor the sexual revolution drug revolution. There's the the rise of youth culture. There is a loosening of respect for authority. I think culture was permanently changed in the nineteen sixties, and in ways that offended your what Nixon would call the Middle American and that Middle American under. From all these social changes went to the right. We're still dealing with. The social issues were raised in the in the sixties. We're still dealing with drugs. We're still dealing with abortion. Social issues. We're really not that significant. From the depression through the late sixties, the the issues were economic after that the becomes social and when they become social The the country turns. The Middle American turns rightward. So that's that's, that's a social legacy but I think in terms of what happens in politics. In one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty four. Lyndon Johnson won sixty one percent of the vote. In a running against the conservative Barry Goldwater. For years later. Democrat Hubert Humphrey doesn't get sixty one percent. He gets forty three percent twelve million. The Democrats Lost twelve million votes between nineteen, sixty, four in one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty eight. There's is a massive shift from the liberal consensus of Lyndon Johnson. To the repudiation of the Democratic Party and Liberalism in nineteen, sixty eight. That happens over four years. And there are a number of reasons for that, but I would say. The biggest reason was a black riding. and this this leads to the issue of what's different about the protests today from the protests end. A. Race is fundamental to both protests with the nature of the protests was quite different. you had made impact. You actually had riots. In nineteen, sixty four. They weren't nearly as A. Biggest. Watson sixty five. You get riots in sixty six. You get traumatic. It's sixty seven in Detroit and Newark and you get the Martin Luther King riots in in April of nineteen, Sixty, eight, that one of the interesting things about this was the police were the heroes in sixty eight. The Democratic convention was really fascinating in this regard. It was televised. You could see the violence industry. You could see the cops take their badges off. You could see them. Take their batons and wantonly beat up everybody, not only the demonstrators, but the media and the bystanders. It was all there and a commission that studied later said. This is a police riot. When the polls were taken. Fifty seven percent of the American people. Thought. The police had acted appropriately. The police. They everybody was was. was in fact they pass. Major legislation is sixty eight to equip the police to deal with riots. the police of the heroes, even though they're violence was want when Mayor Daley said in April nineteen, Sixty, eight to his police shoot shoot looters. That was popular. Can you imagine a mayor in the United? States today telling their their police forced to shoot looters. I mean that that's that's the difference. The climate and sixty eight was pro repression. The black protests in the sixties was so different from today. Even black vote, you have biracial crowds out in masses. I mean I'll tell you. I'm astonished by this and I really can't explain it i. find it very heartening but also baffling. Exactly. There's there's. There's an interesting thing about these protests. The New York Times pointed this out. I think that. The Corona. Has Dramatically. illustrated. Racial disparities in the United States. Alan you you've you've talked a little bit about the some social and political consequences of nineteen, sixty eight, and you ve stressed earlier on the differences between one, thousand, nine, hundred, sixty eight. And today. I know you hate to speculate. You're a very careful and festivities historian. But what I'm just looking forward moving beyond the horse race in November. Some of the potential legacies of this moment. In American history. It's very hard to say I. Mean I assume what you're you're asking is. Will there be changes? In, American society and politics as a result of what's happening this year. And in particular, what do these massive demonstrations against the police? What do they? What do they predict about? That future of American race relations in American politics. Well I. Don't know. It depends on how sustained they are and how directed. I see the obstacles. For example if you WANNA change, police behavior You're going to run into a nursing this all the TV. So there's nothing original about this, but you're running into the police unions. And if you're going to change the culture. Of police forces in, it's really a cultural problem individual problem. You'RE GONNA have to tackle the police unions and if you're the average politician and you're looking at four years. You don't want to tackle that, I mean you. You know you're going to paralyze cities. It would take sustained political, organizing and pressure on elected officials, actually to take the steps that would be needed to change the police, and whether that sustained political action will actually result from this remains to be seen. I would not bet against. The police unions? So that's one thing. And of course, these protests in the street are about more than the police or about systemic racism. And, demands that we at last rendered justice to Black Americans. Well. That's GONNA. Be Very hard to do, too. because. Of the underlying problems. The wealth disparities. That are there. You cannot mountain talk about income. I'm talking about wealth. The wealthiest varies, are there you cannot Do much to reduce them in a generation. I would say the biggest problem. This country has raised is residential segregation. The fact that neighborhood remain a really segregated and the the rate of change of that is glacial. Well. The courts have retreated from trying to integrate the schools. We are back where we were which it is. Year residents determines where you go to school, and so we have still a segregated schools housing segregated schools. We have disparities in the kind of education you get if your inner city school from from others is going to be very hard to change these things and A. You know it's still not clear to me that whites will accept blacks in their neighborhoods. And until that happens, you're going to have a segregated to psychology, and if you're GonNa have segregated society, you're going to have a continuing race problem so even if the will is there. the the problems are so tremendous. It's very hard to see that in a very short time. Much will be what much can be accomplished. Though I will say if they get the cops. So if the back of black people that would be a great accomplishment, but Even then as on pointing out. It's GonNa be hard. Allen. It's been a joy to have you on and I know we barely scratched the surface of the chew and I'm hoping that bring you on again later this year to discuss comparisons between this year and nineteen sixty eight with with greater granularity with greater specificity I'm looking forward to seeing. Thanks, Joe, I'm a big way to do it. Because of Kobe, nineteen policy matters Winston perspectives from rice. University's Baker Institute will be appearing on a less regular Ed.

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