6 Episode results for "Barnes Foundation"
S6E2: Billie Tsien
"Welcome to the design of business the business of design where we introduce you to people from all over the world from different industries and disciplines what here to talk about the transformative role design plays in their business. I'm Michael Beirut. Speaking to you from the school of management the design of business. The business of design is brought to you by mail chimp, which does way more than male to help you grow your business with E mail ads postcards landing pages audience management, tools, automations reports and more. You'll know you're doing marketing right growth looks different to everyone so mail. Tim helps guide you to make the right marketing decisions for your business. Create a customer list connected. Online store test and Email variation or analyze a marketing report. Learn more at mail chimp dot com. On today's episode how architecture can bring people together that sense of the room. And how it holds you. And how contains those things that connect you to the world is really the basis for me of architecture. China's the co founder of Todd Williams village architects, their firm works on buildings from Zia. Gms universities and a wide range of institutions. Billy, welcome to the podcast. Thank you very much. More than one guest. We've had on this podcast wanted to be an architect. A lot of them wanted to be architects. But then they got diverted to other things, including for instance, graphic design now for you is the other way around you started out wanting to be a graphic designer and then turned into an architect. Is that true? I know strangely enough that is true and still sometimes I think did I make the right choice. I would say you did make the right choice. But how did you get from one to the other? Well, I think actually people have very different ideas about what architecture is. And so people have always said oh phone had been good at math. Oh, if only I had been good at drawing would have become an architect. I think what you have to do is enjoy the visual world. And so the first way I enjoyed the visual world was through art. But I felt unmarred I felt like I had to make up my own problem, and then I had to solve my own problem. And so what I liked about graphic design was it was somebody else's problem. But you could within that set of constraints be as crazy as you could be. So I thought I was going to be a graphic designer but strangely enough I was living in California. And somebody said we'll UCLA is a really good school. And it's really inexpensive. But there was no program in graphic design. So I kind of side stepped into the architecture program. And what was actually really great about that was you solve somebody else's problem. You have a set of constraints, but you can also be created within those constraints. But you don't have to do it all by yourself is about collaboration and the thing that I really loved was working in studio with other people. And did you do team projects when you were in school or was it just working side by side with people that were also doing your work doing work in parallel sort of it was both. But there's something quite magical about this is what young architects do not older architects. Staying up really really late together working on a project and being. I don't know completely consumed by that project. Did you foresee a future where you'd be working in collaboration because I think a lot of architects? So, you know, they'll they'll read or they'll see the fountainhead, and they'll picture themselves being alone figure on the top of a pinnacle commanding all around, and you've always been in a partnership. It's interesting because there is I mean every time a movie comes out about architecture. I think most architects are rolled eyeballs back of their heads. Because there is continuing to be this idea of the loan KIRO or heroin, and I think once you start working in the studio outside of school. You realize that you would never be able to really do it by yourself unless you are doing very very small project. And it was frustrating because I somehow imagined always going to be working in an office, and it would have plants and classical music playing and it would be painted white. And it would be very. Very peaceful, and I just sitting there drawing 'cause in those days, we drew, and I did work in office that was painted white. But there were no plants, and it was not peaceful, and the thing that was frustrating was that like life everything that you are in the process of doing was also in the process of being undone in a certain way objects told me, what does that mean? Well, because in school you finish a project and you're done, and you feel like this is the final final and in work. You get as close as you can to the finish. But it's sort of like you never can actually hit that magic Mark where everything is perfect. Everything is finished. And everything stays the way you want it to be and that's actually an important lesson. I think for a creative life. User way to look at that. It's anything, but a point of constant frustration. That inability to perfect everything today are. I can you can you accept it incorporated into your friend? They do accept it as designers. We we learned to try to control everything, but you know, control and perfection are something that you could wish for, but you don't actually ever get there. And probably it's really good that you never get there. And part of the inability to control everything has to do with not just things outside your control like the weather, but it also has to do with the fact that other people are contributing to the process, and I think one of the lessons that you are talking about from school. It has to do with the idea that when you're doing a school assignment when it's finished it's done whereas in architecture. That's just the end of the first of what may be series of prolonged and progressively more. Wonderful surprising frustrating maddening dispiriting inspiring phases. You can't really quite predict at that moment. Oh, that's absolutely true. So we all architects all think of their projects as as their own. You know, this building. This museum belongs to me. It's my project. It's my museum, and you get to that end or is close to the end. Is you get and then suddenly it's not yours anymore, and it's a little sad. But it's also completely wonderful to see other people actually take control. So really what we're doing is trying to make the best container. We can for other people's lives. When did you be tired, and how did you decide to become partners? So I always say that I have a resume. That's actually only one line long because when I loved architecture school. I went to work for Todd, and it was really just a four person office. So there was another person his partner and Todd and at that time I'm slightly telling tales out of school, but he had been divorced for a number of years, and he had a whole bunch of girlfriends that kept on calling the office. So I thought what an I can't say this word a whole because I would answer the phone, and I would be the sort of air traffic controller for people that were sort of calling in or showing up, and I thought boy this guy is really a sort of loser. But he's a good architect. And I have a lot to learn from him. So it really started with both distrust, but also, admiration and friendship, and then friendship over the distrust. And in many ways, he's truly the most honest to a deep fault person that I know, and we started seeing each other, which is I know complicated, but started working there in nineteen seventy eight. We got married in nineteen eighty three we became partners in nineteen Eighty-six. So I say, however long we've been together it's been twice as long as the daytime and the nighttime. And drew member collaborating on projects where it became clear that you were in some ways complementing each other skills. Well, I think one of the reasons why we can work together and live together as because we're so different. So I feel that we are like two trees who are different trees, but below ground. Our roots are totally intertwined so we have very different outlooks on life. But our values are shared. So we have different ways of getting to the final sort of what we believe is. Right. And we definitely fight about it. Sometimes I feel like people in our officer looking at us like mom dad, please don't fight. But I think they also realize it's part of kind of dialogue. I would say that Todd is very interested in this idea of three dimensions. I'm very interested in ninety of sequence. And how one sort of moves through a sequence of spaces. So I'll almost in a graphic design way see the world as a series of images that are flat and Todd is much more sort of floating in a three dimensional space. But I think they need to be brought together in order for us to make architecture. Do you remember your first big project? You did together that sort of set the mole in a way for how how you might work together. Well, our first projects were all interiors. And I think that's actually very good training because it is very much about human relationships. You know, how wide is a table. You know, how big is too big what's too high to low kitchen counters kitchen cabinets all that stuff relates back to human being? And so our first big project was an interior for trading firm, and it was in the city court building and one of the things. That we felt was important was we made small office spaces for the people who were the sort of higher ups in the trading firm, and they were like lacquer boxes, but they were only three sided lacquer boxes because we both wanted to give them a sense of privacy. But the sense of being communal. So I think an idea of how you can both make a place for people to hide away. But at the same time create a sense of wholeness is something that has always infused our work someone who's visited a few of your buildings many of your buildings when you're in them. You never lose sight of the fact that the architecture is working at the scale, you just describe scale human being the scale of you know, how tall you are how how wide your arm span is as you've been working on progressively larger and larger projects museums educational in. Sitution stuff like that. How do you mediate between the human scale and the large figurative scale? How do you make something that both works is the skyline and works for human being in a room? So we really designed from the inside out. And when you do that you end up with something that looks kind of lumpy and not so great Tuttle says, no windows, no windows in this building. So it is really starting to assemble a piece of architecture from a room. And then of course, you end up as I said with this sort of lumpy windowless thing. And we realized well we need to look at the outside. And then you're starting to prune and shape the outside. But it always comes back to the room. I think I think I was deeply influenced by good night moon. Oh, you mean the children's book goodnight moon? I love that book. What did you off about it? It's a room. And it's a room that defines the world of the bunny, and in that room are all the things that the bunny loves in that make up the sort of universe of the bunny. And so I really believe that that sense of the room, and how it holds you. And how it contains those things that connect you to the world was really the basis for me of architecture. Now is that difficult to convey to clients in my experience clients, hiring architects, what they want to be shown as a rendering of how the thing they're building will look from a distance, you know, this edifice rising against the horizon to the mist. And you're describing almost the time metric opposite of that experience. How do you take a client through your process where it's inside out as you say, well, I would say all clients. Now somehow seem to imagine that one can magically fly through the building. In fact, that will happen. Put on the goggles. And and you're there, but I think over time we've learned that the best clients to work with our ones with whom you share set of values. And so the people who end up choosing us or probably not choosing us because they think will do the most photogenic on the skyline building you got the assignment a very high profile assignment to do a building for the Barnes foundation in downtown Philadelphia. And it occurs to me that that assignment is almost entirely about an interior experience. Can you talk about the very specific challenge there, which I think if you're if you're seeking parameters for your work. I can't imagine a more parameter be set project than that one. Well, the Barnes foundation was actually a house museum that was. Was the love of a man named Albert Barnes who collected impressionist art in great numbers and built a museum adjacent to his house actually connected to his house where he hung the work in what he called on sambas. So each wall has a series of paintings that are hung interspersed with hardware and its medieval hardware, mostly. But sometimes it's just looking like hardware. Ngos, perhaps a fork something like that? And the organization was tremendously important him. I like to imagine him patting around in his pajamas sort of moving fork or hinge or Cezanne. Because he did do that. But the Barnes foundation was facing serious economic issues. And so they couldn't take care of their collection. And they decided the trustees to move it from wealthy suburb to downtown Philadelphia. And in order to do that they had to go to court because Barnes specify that. He didn't want the paintings to leave the house and the judge ruled that the paintings ensembles needed to be kept intact and the sequence of the galleries needed to be kept intact. So in many ways, people would feel this was a huge constraint. Because it's like, well, what can you do? You've got the paintings. You've got the galleries in the end, it was actually, very helpful. Because I think we kind of like these tight parameters, and what we did was we looked at every single aspect of the traditional galleries and slightly tweaked them or change the colors or. Used wooden instead of metal. But always with the idea that we were simplifying an intensifying that was a whole sort of mantra that we had as we looked at the galleries. And then we created public spaces never were part of the original program because it was his house museum. So there was no sense of the four of a kind of large lobby or any place where people could have a meal or even use the restroom and easy way. And what people said when the Barnes open because a lot of people felt that it was the wrong thing to do to move the collection. They said, oh you've reproduced. It exactly as it was in Marian, which was its original home, and we just sorta smiled because when you put aside by side photograph of the galleries, you would see that everything had changed. So in a way, we were creating a memory of something that never. Really existed, but it felt right to people who had a memory. So it sort of reinforced this idea that what was in the present was actually what was in the past. And I think that has to do with actually taking the time to understand the essence of what it was made that so special and not sort of erase it but honor. The design of business. The business of his iron is brought to you by mail chimp mail chimp gives you way, more than male. They help you grow your business with E mail ads, postcards landing pages audience management, tools, automations reports and more you'll know your doing marketing, right? Create a customer list connected. Online store test an Email variation or analyze marketing report growth looks different to everyone. So mail chimp helps guide you to make the right marketing decisions for your business. Learn more at mail chimp dot com. You and Todd are unique to a certain degree in that within this century. Basically, you've built one of the great buildings of New York. The American folk art museum and seeing that building demolished essentially, what's it like to sort of like have inaugurated the American Museum of folk hard see it alive and thriving. And then now have just exists as a memory. There must be is it upsetting is a bittersweet is at devastating. What's it like? I would say we're still angry, but we are trying to be at the time. And I think now also a little sanguine I keep telling Todd it's not a child, and certainly I think it was a huge disappointment. Because the museum of modern art has an architecture department. And they've never acknowledged in any way that anything was wrong in tearing down the building, which I think I would have understood although still been upset. I would have understood it it had been a developer watts of buildings if they were Jason to the museum modern art that they wouldn't think of tearing down whether or not they were officially landmark. But something about the relative newness of that building must have given people someone the idea that you could do it with impunity. Right. It just has to do with. It's not a judgment equality. Expe-? It was about expediency right in a certain way. Expediency is a good word. I think it's harder work to understand something that's existing and to understand how you can nit things together. It's easier to tear it down and build something new. So. You know, I feel that the architecture department the design department at least should have honored the presence of that building that was there before. And I'm not saying that, you know, curator's can stop what aboard wants to do or what the head of museum wants to do. But there was never an acknowledgement. For instance, they never have asked us for drawings or for models. It's as if this never this building never existed, and it seems so corporate in a way. Yeah. Now, you have a project perhaps your most visible or consequential one rising in Chicago in Hyde Park, which is the Obama presidential center. Do you remember getting the call that you were being considered for that project? Well, first of all, you know, they put out a general call and everybody sends in their credentials, and you know, you can imagine everybody just sweated over every single word. So he's over every single word. And then we found out that we were one of seven, and we were invited to the White House to have a conversation with the Obamas. And you know, I both was excited and dreaded it because it was so scary, and it was only on weekends because all meetings never took place during a work week. You know, there's so much integrity there. So we could have meetings on weekends or after five so it was on a weekend, and he knew sort of walking into the Oval Office and already. Hello. This is what do we stole? Obviously still pressing the president. And they were lovely people have always said, you know, you can talk to them and you can feel comfortable with them. And you know, was surprisingly true. But what we said in our presentation, and I went to go back to the idea about sharing values. We talked less about the architecture and more about the values. We thought would be important in bringing to this project to remember what values you you raised. Well, we use these two words and noble and enable certainly in his early work as a community organizer as a president. And she to they've enabled so many people to sort of grow and become who they are. And and noble, you know, in many ways, he has a noble, this idea of civil service of kind of sense of of potential dialogue. Of the presidency itself. And so using those words we talked about the idea of a campus rather than an object and how to make this center, and it's actually center because education will not it's not a lie. It's not a presidential library, quote, unquote. It's not per se a library, although there will be objects and material from the archives the physical archives will be stored off site and have been digitized. I mean, it was interesting because I just read a a memoir by Carro about going into the LBJ library, and he talks about being faced with these bankers boxes. Thousands and thousands and thousands of pages. But you think about it? And with Obama really being the first really digital president a lot of the spanker spock's is don't even exist because you know, they're not everything was on. Paper. So it's a very different idea of what a library is. But there will be classrooms. There will be broadcast studios like the one we're sitting in. Now, they'll be an editorial a productive garden a teaching kitchen. The whole idea is about teaching young people from the neighborhood from the country and from the world about civic engagement and how to help to change their world. Are rock Michelle Obama like regular clients, you show him things, and they say I like this. And I don't like that. You know, we're working mostly with personnel. Bama. And he is a really quick read as you can imagine. And you know, eighty percent of his criticism. I think is really right on the point and other fifteen or twenty percents like. I mean, his he's a legendary storyteller. You know, does he sort of see this as a place for that sort of narrative in space that I associate with the worth at you. And Todd do I mean how does that connect? Well, the whole idea of storytelling is very important and kind of foundational belief in how you organize a community, and you share stories, and I think one of the things that he and she have talked about a lot are the stories of other people both other people in the past and other people in the future. So one of the great things is this is really kind of ongoing exercise. It's hopefully a growing exercise. So one of the issues with often presidential libraries is you know, there's great deal of interest in the beginning. And then as generations go on it's sort of drops off. But I think the idea here is not so much about the past. It's really about the. The president of the future. You and Todd have described architecture as an act of profound optimism, what makes you optimistic these days. Well, I have to say I feel incredibly lucky to be working on the presidential center because that is very much about optimism and belief in young people when I would say there are so many good people in this world. That makes me optimistic Billy. You are one of them. Thank you for joining us. Thank you. The design of business. The business of Zion is a podcast from design. Observer our website is Deby d Dafa design server dot com. There you can find more information about today's guests Philly Chen plus conversations with dozens of other people about the transformative role design plays and their business to listen, though to d d dot design them server dot com. If you like what you heard today. Please subscribe at this podcast. You can find the design of business the business of design at apple podcasts Spotify or how ever you take your podcast. And if you're already a subscriber to the podcast, tell your friends about it or you can go to apple podcasts and radio sets a great way to what other people know about this show between episodes and keep up with design observer on Facebook and on Twitter. And if you're not listening already check out our other podcasts, design matters, Debbie millman, and the observatory featuring Jessica Helfand in me today's episode is recorded at the Yale school of management as part of our course, there the design of business the business of design during class Billy offered our students a bit of memorable advice. It's also what the client is willing to risk. Maybe risk is not the right word. How much the client is willing to aspire to? So that's why we've chosen to work primarily for institutions and nonprofits because there are aspirants. They're they're always aspirations there. And those are asked rations we feel comfortable aligning ourselves with which is not just say that you know, architects who work for developers are wrong. It's just that we're aligned with a different set of values in it's important to know where you sit in the world, and where you feel like you can do your best work the kind of people for whom you can do your best work. More about the school management. Go to O, M dot Yale dot EDU. Thanks to everyone at the O M studio in media control center. Froylan crews Abraham Texas, Donnie, Bristol and Iniguez Mike Erico theme music, Julie SU brin- Dr and that heist is our producer our intern Edina car. Our executive producer is Blake Eskin of noun and verb rodeo and a big thank you to my partner in design observer, and my one cent future co host Jessica Helfand come back next week we talking to Cindy Chastain about what it takes the shape, the identity of a global brand it couldn't be done to my mind by a set of guidelines and templates because there's so much complexity the kinds of things we put out in the world. So how do you find a way to enable the people underground to make decisions to be able to see what this looks like this is on brand see you then.
Culture Gabfest: "Call Us, Definitely" Edition
"Before we get going our sponsor today is electrify America. Electric cars may seem a little different but new technology always seems weird at first. Even podcasts. castlemed weird when they first came out in the early two thousands. But just like podcasts. Electric cars are normal. Now they have longer ranges meaning. They're not just for work commutes and they have faster recharging sometimes. So you don't have to wait around all day for charge electric cars. They're normal now. Learn more at normal now dot com the following podcast cast contains lissette language. I'm I'm Stephen. Metcalf in this cultural gap best. Call US definitely edition. We are just past the winter solstice. We are on the verge of widely celebrated holiday known as Christmas dismissing that means it's time for our annual call in show. I'm joined by Julia. Turner who is of course the deputy managing editor the LA Times Julia. Hello Hey and Dana Stevens. Asleep film critic Dana Stephen. Hello I'm here in the studio with Julia just to rub that in yeah. This is the foam. Oh episode for Steve McCaffery. It's early fairly early in the day. And yet we are drinking grapefruit juice with Presario and your four Lorna man. I am so bereft right now. WE'LL RUB IT in Okay so what do we do. We just dive right in right. No need to stand on ceremony. We got great great calls. This year looked really good calls. Yeah Kudos for the calls yet. We shook the tree and beautiful fruit. Sell let's let's do this. Hi I am wondering if there is a word that you've come across in the last few years that you thought wow I can't believe that I know before that that word exists because it's so necessary for our culture to know that word or term. Thanks who wants to start all right. Mine is a little bit of a cheat because I believe I actually endorsed this word when I discovered it so taken with it was I am so convinced that it was the perfect antidote to our current era. The the word is finger spits in. Google Finger spits in Khufu a German term. I'm reading here from Kapadia literally meaning fingertips feeling and meaning intuitive flair or instinct which has been adopted by the English language. As a loan word it describes a great situational awareness and the ability to respond most appropriately and tactfully. So I read this word. I believe in Matt Levine's wonderful money newsletter for Bloomberg which is just a great thing that I get a maximum makes me believe that I understand finance during the time which I am reading it and then I stopped reading it. And all the information evaporates but one one of the all-time great analytical newsletters and he used it and I loved it because we live in an era of data. We live in an era that prizes with the numbers. Tell you and I'm very in favor. I love data I love mucking around spreadsheet I love to use signals from audiences in users to understand how something is doing her performing but also oh from years of toiling on the Internet and studying all that data. I believe that I have great. Finger spits in gift about how and why people will respond to things and what they might respond to and I love the notion of really capturing The kind of deep intuitive learning you can do that goes beyond what pure the numbers might tell you. In our data driven age. I would agree. I think of the three of us you have. The most finger spits in Khufu owned by far and I think someone told me. I think I discussed this was not Levin. The image that he described to me was the farmer Picking up the soil and sort running through their fingers and the notion that you sort of just intuit something about the fertility of the plot from your fingertips feeling it is for an editor in particular. I mean editorial sensibility. Seems like nothing if not fingertip finger food or however many syllables hygiene spits in gophers. Right because I mean you need some hard data. You need to know things like you know. Is this trending has already been written about is something that's been overtalked or under talk to that you need to have some hard numbers in there but you also have to have a sense sense of you know whether you have the right voice of the person to write on it and you know whether you have something to say absolutely arcade so this leads into my word though you you have the finger splits Boola but do you have sits sits flash another great one probably ZITS flash right I don't know but Yeah so you know what that word means. I only learned it very recently. It's refers to one's buttocks and the ability to sit on it. For periods of time required required to produce. I would think writing would be the big one but art or whatever is just kind of the ability to be alone sitting on your ass and doing the work. And there's a wonderful full passage in a moveable. Feast which is the you know wonderfully nostalgic retrospective that. Hemingway took his time in Paris as a young man written as a as a much much. Older Man In in which he himself talks about that he said really the difference between me and all of these other posers who would aggregated from all over the world into Paris Paris during the period by would assume before the war when he got there The difference was sits flash. It was just the literally you divide all of that humanity not under the talented talented the untalented not at all. It was absolutely the division between people who are willing to exit the cafe and the scene and the scene making and just sit on their fucking ass and do you it And I will leave it to others to decide why this is my word. I also love in this era of standing desks. We have so much anxiety you know. Oh you read all these leg- mo- bogus like remember when we were cavemen and our natural thing was like tramping and tromping and finding berries and hunting and we weren't just like sitting in desks all day and that's why you're whatever metabolism Cortisol Blah Blah. You're all fucked up Yeah also everybody fucking died at thirty like no host enough with the evolutionary biology bullshit like I love the idea of a culture that lionesses the ability to sit on your butt and get something done comprises mental work as opposed to one. That is like if you're sitting. You're being lazy. You're being stupid. You're just a brain drone. That's like no brains are amazing. It's really cool. That we can sit down and do stuff stuff with them. Like let's let's let's give a little prized this And then I also just agree with you completely like just the more the further along I get in my career as a manager. Obviously you prize talent you prize intellect but the sheer fucking ability to produce Get something done and make something good. It's as important if not more important than the other two so my word. I actually talked about it pretty recently early on the show and I bet maybe one of the two of you can guess what it is. Steve Do you remember this word. You were excited about it when I introduced it. I believe also an endorsement segment. This has been the year of this word for me because then I ended up. I learned it this year. We talked about it on the gap and then I had it in my mind thinking whenever possible. I'M GONNA use this in my way. This is the word you use in your little. The woman reviews that praised you for using crowed about remembering yes exactly. This was a word that when I finally did get to use it in my little women review it got much sheikh sort of retweeted and talked about because of the words specifically because it's such a cool word that applies to such a specific thing so the word is poor human on. It's a it's a rhetorical full-term from Greek and it means a work of art that is about the process of its own making so Steve. I think we talked about it in reference to Pale fire inbox fire which would mean a classical example sample of appointment on where as you reach the end of the book or the movie or whatever. The work of art is the protagonist. Who's also the artist is just about to start creating it? So it's this kind of snake eating. Its own detail phenomenon and to my delight Greta. GERWIG adaptation of little women is appointment onto a much greater degree than the book. Itself is I mean the book is somewhat about Ah Joe March being Louisa Alcott and being someone who wants to write and she does indeed write stories about her family that start to sell over the course of the book but it doesn't end with a moment when she is watching. The production of a book called little women by Joe March. Which is how the movie ends? And I think that's such such a creative and clever way for Gerwig who changed the ending and also makes makes it about something that the end of the book isn't quite about which is the ability to change one's own story and without spoiling anything the end of the movie little women. The latest adaptation has has this curious debate at the end about whether the ending of Joe Marches Real. Life story is the same as the ending of the book that he's written and leaves that. Oh I cannot wait to discuss this. Let me with you okay. German German Greek. That does her some good words. Yes I am calling for the cultural gap best. My My name is James. I'm a devoted weekly listener and my question for the call in show is I would like to hear each of your top hop three museums in the world. And why do you like to go there. Thank you bye bye okay. I've got three in the the king came to me instantly which I think is a good sign so the first one is Probably my favorite museum in the world is the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. It's going to sound like an arcane choice to some people to anyone who's been it's not at all almost everyone emerges from it thinking it is the most perfectly designed magnificent. You know locus of knowledge they've ever been in to essentially. The museum is designed to telling the entire history of the land mass. That is now Mexico going back to the very the beginning and so it's sort of both art museum in a Natural History Museum in one The whole thing is is designed with such depth of thought. And I'm feeling you walk into this Beautiful Open Plaza which is a surrounded on all four sides And is a public space semi public space in in its own right so their school children visiting all the time Running around and people just kind of hang out and walking through this sun-filled Plaza With Amazing Fountain that you can kind of interact act with. Because it's it's kind of draining directly into the ground level the water's not falling contained space as I recall. And then essentially it's the three or four major epochs of the Mexican land mass each has one side of this four sided Open space and so so you can essentially trace the history of human interaction with this piece of earth Going all the way back to the beginning and it tells the story of the you know the building of of of multiple civilizations one after the other each one sort of displacing the next It certainly dispels any myth that prior to the arrival of Cortez Cortes that that there were a bunch of you know peaceful People living in perfect harmony with one another. It was a history of incredible bloodshed and imperial ambition in these various civilizations but then you get Cortez and you get the Spanish coming in and just like really the only analogy would be if a gigantic the antic alien spacecraft landed in Washington. DC and took over. The Earth wouldn't even do it justice I mean essentially it almost completely obliterated rated what had come before and completely reoriented our sense of what was real like like just an a complete on logical reordering of the entire universe which included looted the both the imposition and the taking on a new passionate taking on of Christianity. And one of the more like remarkable hacks acts of I mean I I I think it's fair to call it kind of rape and miscegenation that then produces a a country right and it's like what one's relationship to this past should should be is incredibly complex. Because I don't think you can eliminate pride but I don't think you can eliminate shame I don't think you can eliminate magnificence or culpability but it all gets told through these artifacts. It's just one of the most incredible places I've ever been in every respect. You both love being in that courtyard and as a meeting place and gathering place for you know Contemporary Mexicans. But just the genius of the way that that museum is laid out is remarkable and lent and somewhat less long-winded. -Ly Jody Rosen. PUT US on. I believe put me on to this place in Paris. Called the Musette de la Shos a Dula not tour the Museum of hunting in nature which I went to many years ago with my kids and we were all floored. My memory of it is less vivid than my memory of the Anthropology Museum but it is essentially what it says says. It's like sort of a lot of taxidermy. Every presentation is essentially a highly eccentric Artwork it's I believe in a Parisian townhouse essentially and it it. It just manages to mix taxidermy with kind of a a highly collage inflected modern art sensibility instability in ways that are mind blowing as I recall. It's currently temporarily closed for expansion. I think it is regarded as a success like a kind of wildly. Interesting place is to just hang out and have your mind blown. And then the final one would be the Clark Museum in in Clark is great. Yeah Williamstown Massachusetts. Julia is you know it's an old old. It's like a rural frick right. It's essentially a robber baron family or whatever very wealthy family defeated their provincial estate. Eight over to a nonprofit in order to turn it and their art collection into a into a public museum it's just a wonderfully intimate atmosphere within which to interact very very closely with you know. masterful works both from American in Europe. I mean principally the European works as I recall our Impressionistic Masters and the American ones ones are kind of winslow homer and Aitken's But there tends to be a wider variety and then they get in exhibitions like they had an incredible when van Gogh and his relationship to nature. it's a wonderful place to have lunch and then it's surrounded by nature trails that I've I've had some of the most beautiful and restaurant of walks of my life in between looking at the art so those are my three. Oh my my gosh. In the course of listening to you talk about those three museums you reminded me of like twenty other museums so in addition to the initial three museums that sprang to mind like Fifty D. museums. I WanNa talk about which I won't day. What have you got? I don't know I'm also having trouble narrowing it down. I feel like is sort of like making a top ten list where it's like. Do you want to recognize the big breadth of museums or do you WanNa talk about strange Quirky museums. That are people might not know about because like for example. I'm not gonNa site the met right. Even though that is a museum that is basically the one that I visit the most. That probably means the most to me that I've had the most meaningful experiences and I mean it's just this temple of art that we're so lucky to live in the same city as like dorsal sourcing. Oxygen Yeah exactly so I have to go down a little bit more of a rabbit hole than that so I think I'm GonNa go just super personal just three museums that I have very intense experiences of visiting in multiple times and that in some cases might not be the most obvious one to visit And Yeah I'm sure in the conversation afterwards. All think of many more that that I should have included but my first one would probably be the Clooney Museum in Paris which is one of my despair dear to my heart museums. Its medieval art. It's in a sixteenth century. I think or seventeenth century building. I think used to be some sort of chapel or church is a gorgeous building not of the era that the art is of. But that's the great thing about the colluding museum is it. So how many eras layered onto each other because the site that it's built on which is just right by the sin in the fifth round e small. Like when you walk out of it you can see across the PO. No of you know you can see oh to dominate CETERA. is on top of the baths the Roman baths from when Paris was a Roman settlement. So part of the museum is that you can go down into these wonderful wonderful kind of whitestone rooms dug into the ground that that used to be the whatever they were called the Third Mariam or you can learn about it when you go there the hot baths in the cold baths of Rome and one of the things that's in the cold bath anachronistically but beautifully is these heads that were taken off of Notre Dame during the French revolution when you know one of the acts of violence that was visited on the old world of the city that some of the saints were beheaded by rebels and And so there's these strange whites stone giant heads of of Saints and and Mary Joseph and things just set up in this room of Roman baths. But that's not all the cleaning museum has its just got stained glass rooms that are completely darkened end except for light. That glows behind the old stained glass. So you can do a thing you can't do and get the drills and get right up next to the glass. It isn't high above your head but just right in front of your face and read all the biblical stories. There you know is just full of reliquary and just tapestries. That has the Unicorn. The famous series of Unicorn with Lady Lady with the Unicorn. Tapestries is just a dazzling rattling museum and fairly small so you can just have a perfect jewel like afternoon there and then walk across the Seine and do other wonderful things so Musee de Clooney. That's definitely currently up there with my three faves I spent forty eight hours in Berlin. Once it's the only time I've been to Berlin and it was a work trips. A twenty four of the hours were spent doing movie stuff and interviews reviews and visiting a set and and had really nothing to do with Berlin tourism but with the remaining twenty four hours. I just tirelessly tracked. I just wanted to get in as much Berlin as I possibly. We could and walked for hours and hours and went into everything that seemed interesting and the only museum I visited during that twenty four hours was the cinema museum in Berlin. It's on the potsdamer plots in a very historic part of the city which is right where the wall one of the places where the wall ran through the city and has now been transformed into this very kind of mall like plaza. That I think is owned by Sony. And you wouldn't know that inside this Big Mall Like Plaza is another Gem Lake Museum. That's a it's a museum of German cinema specifically although although it will have exhibits on on cinema from around the world and something I love about this museum is that I as I experienced. At least it was sort of Ikea's style so you had to walk through threw it in a certain order. You couldn't really skip from room to room. I'm not sure if that's true anymore if that was even true when I was there but how it was set up when I was there which seemed to be pretty much. The permanent exhibit was was a kind of tunnel through German cinema history and was just incredibly well put together. One of the things they had I remember was a display. Marlene Dietrich's personal effect. So it was. You know a lot of her costumes in her cigarette cases lined in Velvet. And you know her love letters to various lovers male and female and it was just a gorgeous this exhibit and then there was a roomful of drawers. There was a room of German history during the War World War Two. That was really dark but really fascinating. I mean physically dark and morally and emotionally emotionally dark where you could pull out these drawers and look at things like Pamphlets antisemitic propaganda pamphlets and posters for all kinds of strange movies movies made under the Third Reich and also you know resistance movies that were secretly made during the Third Reich and just by pulling out these drawers see different artifacts of German in film history during that time so that was fantastic. They had a beautiful postcard store where I got so many great postcards from German films and then they had a cafe called. I I think called Billy's named after Billy Wilder That was a cinema themed cafe at the at the bottom of the museum. Just the whole thing was a great experience. If you go to Berlin please visit the Cinema Museum on the Potsdamer Platz and the last one just to be a booster. I will be American and talk about the Barn Foundation in Philadelphia and you know I never have of the meaning to forever and I wondered if one of us would name it so I'm glad you did. It's a weird I mean it's I'm naming it specifically because it is not like any other museum I've ever been into an even if you're not in the mood for a museum you know. Sometimes you don't feel like standing in white rooms looking at text next square things and that's not what happened at the Barnes Foundation at all. It's this very personalized idiosyncratic collection that belong to this one guy who used to display all his work in his house for a very long time. The Barnes Foundation was at the House of of Solomon Barnes and after he died it became impossible. There were so many people visiting there was nowhere to park in the art couldn't be properly preserved and and essentially even though I think he had it in his will. There's a documentary about this fight. And I don't remember how it all went but he wanted it alternate in his house. I think his family did too but finally sort of the art world war one out and said you know we have to preserve these masterpieces somewhere where they can be seen where they can be protected so the space that it's in wild beautiful and modern is not as idiosyncratic. 'CAUSE 'cause I think it used to be in Philadelphians will probably tell you that but I've only seen it in the new space and I loved it and among the things that he collected in addition to you know impressionist art and Medieval Art and the Early Twentieth Century. Stuff and really very very broad taste was that he loved metal fittings of all kinds and sort of in history of metallurgy and he wanted to the hang his works with the metallurgy and he also is always changing them around apparently and his idea was to have this shifting display. Where on the same while you would see something like you know a Byzantine Byzantine icon next to I don't know a matinee. Still Life of flowers and then underneath that would be strip from the thirteenth century. That was all rusty. He and The way these things hang is just Almost like a salon hang you know where they cover the walls up very high and very low and there's no legends on the walls which makes you look at the art so if you want to know what the art is you have to go to these little sort of laminated menus. They keep in each room and they're plenty of them. If you WANNA walk around with a little laminated card you can read on about each work of art and where and when it was made and so forth but it's kind of under just wander through an experience things and then only when you're just desperate to know about a piece east you go and consult what it actually is. It's just it's such a great way to display art so the Barnes Foundation Dili's my last one. I now have a list of twelve in front of you have to to figure out what she wants to frigging back. I've never I just want to interject quickly. I've never been to the Barnes. I really want the three of us to go do a road trip there please. All right I'm going to cheat a little bit but I promise me be succinct okay. One type of museum that I love is the small perfect experience. That is a blend of art and architecture in this camp. I would put the Portland Museum of art in Maine which is structured. So that you go to the top floor and you walk down in a circle so you always know where you're supposed to go next which I love that feeling of a tunnel and a museum where you know exactly what you're supposed to look at in what order and you're being guided through it sort of the opposite head of the Barnes. I think And it's got all these beautiful winslow homer's and Maine coast things ben also every so often it's punctuated by a window that makes lets you look at the actual Maine coast as though it is a piece of art and it's just a beautiful blend of architecture and collection also in that camp. I would put the Picasso Museum in Paris which am is just like a permanent retrospective and it's so well organized. And you really come away feeling like you understand. Picasso's career art such a good museum And and I also another one. That's dear to my heart because I worked there for a summer in the costume and Textile Department. The Risky Museum which is just little mini pocket museum and because it goes with Rhode Island school live design. They literally just have one of everything they've got like one mummy and one tapestry and one chair from the eighteenth century one chair from the nineteenth century and like one van Gogh and one this and one that I'm not actually sure they. They WanNA bring cousy where they've got one the you can see like it's like a miniature met. They have literally like one of all the things. And it's a it really darling. Museum so little digestible beautiful museums type. One Okay Museum type two again cheating but trying to be brief. If if you go to one of the big old greats find a great guide and hire them. I one of the best art experiences I ever had was having a guided tour of the Proto and guided and guided tours of the Vatican. Where when you're Contri- confronted with just an overwhelmingly huge gorgeous collection? Shen if you hire a real art history expert to walk with you through show you things create a pathway through it to help you understand the relationship of what you're looking at in the history. I mean maybe it's just because I'm so verbal and history focused as a consumer of art but I. I really think it's worthwhile to get someone to help. Guide you through those big places. This is especially. If you're you know you're in Rome but you're not gonNA come back necessarily it's it's I think a good use of time and then I'm so interested I've never been to the Clooney Museum but the the layers of place is the final category for me. One is the the biggest revelation of La has been the Tar Pits which I love them so much. Oh Oh my God it's just primordial ooze like right there in Los Angeles. It's incredible. I always stay right here there when I'm in Los Angeles in part just because I love walking by are those pits and the other one I will mention too because it's a nice echo back to the clooney is the Church of San Clemente Laterano in Rome. Which is actually church? Did Not a museum but it is very similar similar. It is the kind of like amazing. Ancient European city takes for granted it's ancient nece and it is a church with four layers. There's like an ancient attention layer where there are ancient Roman aqueducts and with Rick Temple. And then there's a church from the four hundreds and then above that a basilica got from the eleven hundreds and you just keep going further and further downstairs into these like weird layers of Roman history. And it's just great and there's parts of all those structures remaining. Yes it's just it just like an onion skin Yuki blaring and We have to move on to question about this for a hundred hours. I didn't even talk about Mass Moca which is a great museum for children. This seems like a case to throw it out to people and maybe start at twitter through twitter. All right now is the moment in our podcast. Talk about our sponsor Dana. Would he got Stephen this week. A slight Culture Gabfest is sponsored by electrify America. Electric cars may seem. I'm a little different but you technology always seems weird I even podcast seemed weird when they first came out in the early two thousands but just like podcasts. Electric cars are normal now they have longer ranges. 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It's an utterly confounding and weird adaptation of the long running Broadway musical. We also at this weekend and and after we answer listener questions we are all GonNa just stoned Lee respond to the world changing experience that is sitting through cats so to hear segments. Like that and to get podcasts. You can sign up fifty one so to hear segments like that and to get every podcast you can always sign up for slate plus our membership program which is a great way to support the magazine for just thirty five dollars for your first year. You get three to purchase thirty five dollars for your first year you help cover the cost of producing all of your favorites late. PODCAST CAST in return. You get ad free versions of those shows with weird strange editions like Julia. Dana and Steve Reacting to cats and many other benefits. So if you want to support that three to one so if you want to support the culture gabfest and all the other shows you love it slate you can go to slate dot com slash culture plus join plus today all right Stephen on with the show. Hello this is a message for your cooling show from Phil Pain in less than about which cultural item or Axons d you and your partner. Most enthusiastically agree and potentially more interesting. About which cultural item. Oh you and your partner. Most vehemently EDNID- disagreed keep up the great work. Still the best cost by love to hear from pers. First of all Australian Australian listeners. Love them all so dearly. Absolutely this is an interesting one for me to tackle because I feel like my moral fortitude is proven by the fact that I'm a movie critic who lives with someone who doesn't even get Vertigo is a great movie and this is not a thing that we've ever fought about or struggled over but it was honestly a hard thing for me to accept when it first what's his. What's his response to Vertigo? Well I mean for one thing. Just don't John He needs to see it at a great screening meaning integrate print in a theater you remain retain home. I feel like he has to at least at some point. Admit that he's wrong for not living vertigo. When did it is one of those works of art about which you can't just sort of you know shrug your shoulders and have no feeling? I think that maybe it's just that. He resists the over praise as quality of Vertigo and wants to champion other hitchcock films instead. But Yeah I mean my partner is a person who I would say you know. Most artistic cultural production type things not even a question that we agree about them because we experience them together and whether or not we love them equally their thing that were equally vibrant about discussing but once in a while one of those dead spots comes along like wait. You don't get Vertigo. And I don't know what his equivalent would be. If he was here at a Mike saying wait. You don't get ex you know and we'd be curious is to know what that would be But yeah the thing about my guy is that he is an artist. As opposed to a critic you know he is someone who make stuff all day who thinks about the world as a visual experience much more than I do going to museums with him is fantastic. Because he so much better looking than I am and And later about kind of reconstituting. What about that? Visual experience was worthwhile in a way he and a few of my other friends. Great Museum goers have kind of taught me to go to museums because I didn't and so much grow up going to them. I mean you know on school field trips and things like that or maybe on vacation with my parents but it wasn't like a family activity that we go look at art but just it's very a different experiencing art with an artist with a critic and I had always before data and people who are essentially critic. Somebody who like me had sort of academic analytical I I who loved art but who looked at it as a thing to write about and talk about and not to make you know not to make and sort of see in the world waiting to be made and so that's such an exciting perspective to me that it doesn't ever really bother me when we don't see eye to eye on the same artistic things but I still do feel that on most important things. Amine Vertigo is important to me but then on most works of art that are meaningful to me. I can bring them to him and not feel that they will be slugged. That would be a hard experience to have. I also think so that it would be a lame experience to have to expect the person that you love to experience everything in the same way and to to always love what you love. And it's it's fine with me that we have some them separate aesthetic universes that just revolve in their own spheres. Don't need to involve each other. Yeah although my husband is also Essentially an editor right He. He reads things he makes notes on them. He tries to offer advice on how things might be more effective. But he's working on the making of off cultural objects and I'm working on the making of cultural reporting and criticism that we sort of come at it from similar cast of mind but different ends of the production and reception standpoint in that can create really fun and productive conversations. I would say that for everything we experience that is great or potentially great We can enjoy ably discuss them. The place where we diverge is in our taste in junk TV server him junk. TV is like just rewatching endless episodes of Seinfeld the simpsons and frazier which I thoroughly enjoy and participate in. I don't often but like I I like all of those things they're fine But my junk TV like law and order law and order Svu or younger like he cannot feign interest in them like he just finds them so dumb and he doesn't find find me dumb for enjoying them but he does not he cannot get caught up in the plot mechanics and the tension and release of that type of show. And sometimes I'll be like Oh watch with me. It'll be like so relaxing and cozy to watch together and he just like his. I can feel his tense boredom next to me and it like totally fucks it up for me. 'cause I'm 'cause I it's not that it makes me question my own enjoyment in it but it's just like how can you not just want to know if mariscos going to solve the case and get the guy to confess like. Can't you just lose yourself in honored rest view and the answer room is no and very occasionally that is well. It's not even that frustrating. It's just like okay well. I don't look for that death in our relationship. Well I I would say. Probably the big one is any music that emerges from the root stock of Bob Dylan you know a white guy with Acoustic Guitar Sharing his self pity with the wider world is surprisingly lost on my. I don't know what the problem is. I myself off pickup guitar and do stylings and interpretations of the Canon of self pitying white guys. And that doesn't seem to help. I cannot get through through to her songs by Bob Dylan Van Morrison Bruce Springsteen lead Richard Thompson. Jason Isbell as as Song List to the love of her life are somehow not you know. Great Works of art. She just rejected like a like a kidney mismatch. I will say it is a great way of my life to have married someone who never fucking to play the guitar. ooh really there. It's just the shoe fits just so fucking snugly. Let's see I on the contrary. I would love to have a drummer in the household. I would love to have like a neighbor right right. Oh my God. What's great is that? I only get to the point where I can get from the beginning of the song along to the end without a major flood after about a thousand tries. Never never good right. It's never even remotely good but it's like I can kind of get through. You know I can get through you. Know Jason is bulls relatively easy after six weeks of work. And it's just it's driving her mad by the second attempt and I just there is like there's phantom thread like marital Seda on thanking you to intervene. Intervene what are you and your lady. Love share the marriage plot novel. That's a great one. You mean not. The novel entitled Title The Marriage Plot but definitely not no just the great eighteenth nineteenth century English novels or you. You know sometimes not English novels but mostly just kind of heyday of the novel is the Great Civilizational Art form you can. I make it joint. Can I make a couple cultural recommendation for you if you have not done this already. If you guys love novels of marriage and remarried you should go on a screwball comedy Jag together. All the classics right there century retelling of the same stories. That's the Great Stanley. Cabal Essay. Right the the screw balls were all remarriage plots right yeah. That's fantastic. Wait I did that. Just remind me of one thing though hearing hearing the guitar. The Vertigo of my marriage is buffy. The vampire slayer Ben like watched the first season and was like yeah and like I can't look at that too hard and I've thought about trying to make him watch again but the thought of having him do his radiating tense boredom Abkhazi I think I just gotTa like put it over in a corner and never look at it vertigo of it. Of course if you could take a single beverage book and record with you into isolation of a warm comfortably really appointed remote Alpine cabin. What would you bring and why and what if anything do these three things have to do with each other? I have an answer and things have nothing to do with one another. I'm just trying to design a pleasant and restful afternoon for myself. I would take a a perfectly chilled bottle of a nice mantra shea. And Pride and prejudice and to listen to may be Red Garland's read alone and and have a very lovely afternoon in those three things have really nothing to do with each other. Except for that I really frigging. Love them all uh-huh and Garlan Steve Discovery Honored evenly onto him. All right. I would bring a single malt I had someone gave me mcallen Like I think it was mcallen twenty year old and I didn't really I was sort of associate. macallan is like a cat like a Cadillac. Like someone from a previous generation thinks it's really fancy but it's in fact become a by word for sort of cheesy fancy and pseudo fancy and But I don't I think I don't think it is. I mean it's not maybe the most complex Scotch I've ever had but a mcallen twenty is like wow zor is that shit shit smooth and like and it just kinda warms you from the it starts with your that police where your marrow to your soul it just gets the two vibrating and warming up from the inside out. It's amazing it turns out it's only about eighteen hundred dollars a bottle so it's real. I mean it is fucking shit expensive. I mean it is like forget it like you know. Shake the SOFA and took an cash. The war bond and get your one bottle and make it lasted. His spot is really good and I would love to have it with me in an Alpine cabin to go with that. I mean maybe little girl little girl blue by Nina Simone which is just status. It goes to the same place. Them McCowan does Just that's amazing record and then a single book I gotTa Tell I'm I'm I'm going through it. Kinda slow doesn't read slow at all. But I'm about one hundred pages into Bell Jar and I fucking love it. I love this book so much and and my thirteen year old daughter recently closed it and looked up and was just like her her love. Sylvia plath that book and the experience of of reading means that this book will be one of my favourite cultural artifacts forever just from the look on her face after she read the last word. But I'm one hundred pages in and and so full of admiration for this person who I mistook for a sort of sad doomed lady poet WHO's filled with vitality is that I do not convertible in an otherwise that I just didn't understand knowing only her by her? Her stereotypical image. But this it's so those are my three. I have a comment on Sylvia plath before I get into mind Steve. which is that you know? She herself regarded that book as a Juvenilia potboiler and wanting to deal with it. Yeah Yeah Yeah. Yeah and just that I mean I admire the book too. Although I wouldn't say that it's it's the most meaningful interface for me with Sylvia Plath at all but if that is the case as that that book has opened up a new side of her to you than I would recommend that you read some of her letters and journals which I think are the greatest thing she ever wrote in that if you have a feeling of love for her as as a person wishing that she had lived longer and that you had known her and that there was more to to grasp onto of her I mean in addition to her her poetry obviously her complete poetry. Autry is something to keep on your shelf and crack into it anytime but you know. Get her get her unabridged journals and letters letters home. It's called her letters to her mother. which are incredible? Will it all just arrived in the mail. I'm giving my daughter's Christmas was by giving by giving them to them actually filching and reading myself and So I love this question because it's all about just the pleasure of I gather a limited time in this cabin. It's not a desert island question right. It's not sort of like you all you get. Is the cabin planning a really good afternoon. Yeah that's so sweet and I love that. You don't have to think about like but what will last me through the lonely years or something like that. You can just design an awesome day for yourself off so I guess I would say we're bringing alcoholic beverages. Which is maybe worrisome especially given the Jillian Ikea right now drinking eleven? Am but I would take a red wine from the Rhone region. Steve would know more about which one I should bring. I would ask him for advice on which which red wine to bring like a cop or something a cook. A coot routine Oh that's right. You love a coat not yes okay. So if the listener who who sent in the The question is picking up the TAB. I'll have a nice bottle of Cote rotie and and I will for music. I will take box piano. Partidos played by Andrew. RENDELL which I think I've already endorsed on the show. My favorite version of those. I mean I don't have have to bring a book like the complete works of Shakespeare. Some nourishing thing. I can just bring like a fun afternoons reading so I think from my book. I'm going to bring a GABFEST classic Steve. What is the book that I turned you? When your daughter's onto another thing that it was the re what the Red Garland was for Julia? Something that changed you guys. Reading experiences are captured. The castle yes I capture the castle by Dodie Smith still enjoys book in a way doesn't go with Alpine cabin setting exactly because it's springtime book it takes place in the spring and it talks. There's a lot about flowers and plants and gardens but it's just it's irretrievably joyful and always fun to return to and one of those girlhood reading books for me that you can just let it fall open to any page and you're just back in that world again. I like that. We all chose a female authors. Oh my gosh. We didn't even try Yup. So thank you for the Alpine. Kevin question that was a answer male musicians though. It's no Nina Simone. Okay mixed mixed bag. All right now's the moment or a podcast to talk about our other sponsor Dana. We got our other sponsor this week. Steve is calm. The number one APP for sleep sleep and relaxation sleep is important. Every day of the year but around the holidays it can get even harder to find those precious hours. And when you finally get into bed you want to make sure you fall asleep and stay asleep sleep. That's why you should try. Calm the number one APP for sleep and relaxation. 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Know that we care about them and remind everyone that life is better with respect and better together while the act of bringing people together may seem difficult or daunting. This movement proves quite the opposite. It's a simple easily realized. Act Accomplished perfectly through a toast. Be Be sure to make a toast to this holiday season with Sam Adams. The Boston Beer Company Boston Massachusetts Savor the flavor responsibly. So this is a question of primarily for We often hear the cocktail party asking talking with actor. You would want to play you the movie of Your Life. I'm uncertain which direction you would pick movie of your life and then bonus points. I'm curious which director you would direct movies for. Steve and Julius lives as well a question just for me all right. I'M GONNA throw it back to you guys at some point but let me try to get through that excellent excellent question. I is for Steve. One immediately comes to mind and I don't know if it's going to mean anything to you Steve. But I would love to see a version of the Steve Metcalf story directed by our no day. Placentia have you seen any of his films. No I'm bracing myself okay. Well the one I was going to go so obscure we can't tell whether we're being praised insulted out. She just made up his friend correct yes or no depletion finger. I hope I'm saying his name right. I mean he's made some movies that you guys have probably seen although I don't know if he's made one that we've ever talked about before and the gap vest but Steve. The one that made me think of you is one of his first movies. At least the breakthrough one in the US which was called my sex life. or how I got into an argument. Can't starring much you Mel Rick. Who is I feel like? He's a little bit of A. He's a somewhat Stephen Personality in in the gallic cinema sphere. It's so funny and so great. It's sort of a big sprawling epic about this wonderfully Schlemiel Grad student. Who Can't finish his dissertation and all of his Romantic Cements and his rivalry with a fellow academic who has a pet monkey. And it's just this great comment slapstick and Romance. You've seen it right. The monkey under the radiator data. I hate you you hate that movie I know but I mean it's like how many snugly fitting shoes are we going to ram down my throat and I just feel like actually Steve has somewhat of it. It's not just that. He resembles a character or characters in deficient. He has a diploma unlike sensibility in that though his movies day Polish movies tend to be movies of ideas about people. Well who are smart and discuss ideas a lot without being talkie. They're also kind of you know they have a lot of humor and eroticism and breadth of experience and and they are world unto themselves unique worlds And so I guess that was who sprung to mind for Steve Julia. Wow a Julia life. I guess because Julia's life seems more thriller like to me like maybe it's like a journalistic thriller of some kind. Maybe Alan Alan. J peculiar could dramatic. I love it I mean Julia just sort of seems like she's this. She's on on the move. I can see like jumping into the cab in Istanbul and having to chase down some guy who's knocking over fruit carts with his motorcycle because not a secret. It thumb drive culture editor in Santa Monica. But we've got to make your life into exciting movies bad. You agree with me. Steve I mean maybe the cool is not the only one but somebody who makes international thriller so much like just leave the valise so on the park bench just trying to look also maybe a Bourne identity element in there somewhere. I just feel like I could see Julia in a trenchcoat like in that in in that ferris wheel on the Thames overlooking some sort of terrible criminal act taking place. With total dispassionate. Yeah I'm Julius Styles in the borne movie. I was GONNA Safer Julia's macos workmanlike. Mix a lot of money. I'm so sorry this is GonNa be the question that destroys the gap Taurus. Apart much rush have quite the right director for Julia. But you see this genre that. I'm getting at Steve Right. It's kind of like a tense journalistic thriller a Little Bit Spotlight Style. You know something that's like got brains but also heart and suspense right. I didn't think that my life seems so excited. Julia let me believe in something in two hours and writers. I almost can't think of a director static enough to direct my life. It's gotta be one. It's got to be like Norway. Bill Shalon that AH Turkish director. Who makes our movies about people walking through orchards or something? Just like Warhol just trained. The camera on the in the Empire State Building left there for me with with a laptop petting a dog for four hours Julia. Do you have one for Dana. Laugh if one for Dana kind of actually based off of that last comment which is I could see Frederick Weisman for Dana because there is the thing that always strikes me about tena is her attentiveness and the acuteness of observation and the fact that the observation always comes before the idea or the opinion which I you don't think is true of me. I love to have a preconception. I love to change my mind but just Dana Stephen. I like to argue both sides of the coin. Dana likes to come in and just be right. I don't know just the attentive looking the patient. Attentive Looking part of Dana. I would like that I to look at Dana as well. I would welcome wiseman movie if only because we get to hang out with Fred Wiseman for multiple hours. That's one half thought. I don't know what what do you think. Steve who for Dana I I would love to see Danes Life. reimagined as a Tarantino esque bloodbath just savage like unremitting acts of dehumanizing violence mixed in with Lake Knitting and she's wearing a yellow tracksuit and then the needles really come into play. Hey that's let's just revenge for the previous. I'm opening up a briefcase and it's glowing. What's inside it is? What's inside my glowing going briefing? Just your laptop screen bill deadline. I have to meet high culture. Gone Fast. That's my name is Hannah and I'm a long-term listener I have a question about your favorite piece of culture of Art That represents the place where you grew up. I grew up in South Dakota and I no longer live there. But I'm always interested in people's depictions of the Mid West and that area so I know from Texas Julia's from Boston. I'm curious what resonates most with you when people ask you where you're from. What piece of cultural art do you send them to thank you all right? I have a couple of more or less loosely fall into this category so the town that I'm from Texas San Antonio which doesn't have a lot lot of movies set there But one movie. That is all about a voyage to San Antonio and that does culminate in the Alamo is pee. Wee's big adventure. which is a wonderful timber? Movie You probably one of my two to three favorite timber movies That that just works in every single way and it's not exactly about Antonio but is a very sweet tribute to it and certainly gives you you a good peek at At different parts of San Antonio but I think a movie that while watching it I had this gasping sense of of recognizing how closely aligned with aspects of my autobiographical. A graphical experience was dazed and confused the link later movie about high school which is in the suburbs of Austin that it takes place but it looks a lot like the San Antonio suburbs where I grew up it takes. Place is almost exactly at the time that I was the age of what would have been probably the younger kids the Middle School kids in that movie Wiley Wiggins at all. Oh yes I loved Bradley Wiggins so much and I felt this although I was too old to have a middle school crush on him I felt a retroactive. My middle school self having a crush on Wiley wiggins and that movie and just that hierarchical article world that it depicts the you know football centric public high school in Texas in the early eighties late seventies whenever it is it takes place was my world and so it reads to me when I see it not as a satire or some sort of allegory about high school but as an actual just a high school yearbook Blown Open and plus. It's just a a great movie. Maybe linklaters best so dazed and confused. I think would be mine such a great movie. I just was the age to have a crash on Wiley wiggins and also like everybody else in that movie from McConnell. Hey to the men to the women on town yeah I mean just one of those movies where he cast unknowns and also famous actors Ben Affleck is maybe maybe at his best ever has got about paddle wielding bully from football team. Just so many great character types. I could be that movie every single year and I said okay. Well I'm from the Upper East side of Manhattan and I think the the work of art that I must associate with that particular. Part of New York City is Frankfurt Zoe by silencer. The glass family lives on the upper east side. And when I read it I don't know that I could point to any specific word word or paragraph or description but the whole thing is saturated with the feeling of the aura of those incredibly long east West blocks of the upper east side. Ride that go from the river to Central Park and what. It's like just walk off of the main arteries and be in a special kind of like hush urban hush which is so rare in New York City And then second for the second reason that you know I grew up in a run of the mill. Wasp upper east side Wasp family and so the the idea just the idea that the upper east side of New York might contain this. You Know Jewish wished Vaudevillian wise child. Prodigious Artsy fucked up Zan obsessed family the same blocks you know might sequester within in them that kind of life you know struck me as fanciful but worth believing in that the like Shangri la of of kind of high culture and deep feeling was right there also and not worlds worlds away was incredibly powerful powerful to me so sort of anything that's allender wrote with the glass family in it which includes some short stories and you know raise the routine carpenters But really especially Ashley feel like but Zoe. I have drawn a complete and total blank on the culture of Boston which sorry Boston Babur. Mark Wahlberg aerosmith new kids on the block. I mean Lehman and afflicted I did really enjoy the work of like the lemon heads and morphine fien and Juliana Hatfield in the early nineties. I think there's something about growing up in New England and Boston particular that you feel like you're growing up in the colonies or something I I felt very connected to Robert Frost. Louisa May alcott Emily Dickinson. I felt like they were of my place. And my place. My my literary place or my place place of art was New England more than it was Boston proper which may have to do with education or instinct your inclination but like really I would say I read little? I'm so excited to talk about the little one movie with you guys having Sena but you know reading little women and and reading about these girls in this bookish Lucas girl growing up in Massachusetts Hello Slate Culture Gabfest. This is Jim Pollini calling from bethpage New York. Here's my question as a an all knowledge to the terrific. Oh you did of marriage story and Bouncing off of Dana's commonly dement review. I was wondering if he would all my question is will you be willing As they did in the movie marriage story to each one of you say what you love about the other co hosts just one thing something that we don't know by listening to the show And the spirit of the holidays I think that would be nice. That's my question. What do you love about your co host with a sweet question? I I love this question. I hope it is not intended as a prelude to our horrifying divorced. I will only do this. If we all stipulate in advance that this is is not part of our divorce proceedings. I'M NOT GONNA storm out of the room refusing to say anything. I think that people should know about Steve. Metcalf calf is that he is just an incredible host It we've both had the pleasure of visiting him a few different times up again and and the sort of warmth and hospitality and eagerness to show off the bounty of his corner of the world And the solicitous nece about what the guest might actually want to do in that corner of the world and the evident community that he's built up there. It's just I don't know I feel like Danai constantly get emails constantly every so often we get an email from someone who has just read Steve completely wrong through the show. And it's like how. How do you put up with Steve's sexist deprecation 's and it's just like who what are you fucking live like no yeah people take him being along? Talker are as the idea that he's somehow stealing us and keeping us from speaking which is not the case at Hong Kong Or just I or the fact that you have strongly held. Opinions is the fact that you're not just a deep listeners. You and thinker about our pinions and contributions as well and the the generosity and give the way that you host the show which is a really hard task and one that you're so good at and one where you're we're able to book guide the conversation and be a robust participant in it like is also represented in your your hospitality at home Not something people people should know about. Steve do extra Dan do. You WANNA do Steve I yeah I do me do me. Oh well we talk about this sometimes on the show but I just love Dana Dana Sense of style. I mean Dana. The notion that Dana has had to be taught to see by her artists partner. Is it makes me wish. I could eavesdrop on his conversations because of course Dana in writing about film is working with her. I all the time but I also love the way she works with her. I N con in composing her outfits. Day by day Because she never for looks like she's following a playbook but they're always interesting. There's always interesting shapes and colors speaking to another. She's one of the most fun people people it's outfits to hold that I know and it's one of the great sadnesses of being across the country so we don't get to compare notes. Well the day that I always dressed the best is Dan whom you see you other today. I can't live up to that wearing only a turtleneck jeans. I'm wearing like whatever shards of clothes I happen to have on this trip. So yeah it's we'll we'll we'll meet again again. One day I will take sense of style. That's a great one for me. The challenge here I think is finding something that wouldn't be pretty evident to listeners of the program grandma away because I've got copious very sincere and very loving things to say about both of my co hosts but I think your average listener probably knows them already but with Dana I mean I have been to daynuss apartment in in Brooklyn a number of times now. It's very look it's like a place I really like being. I do feel as though when you walk into a person's home. You are walking into the interior of their personality or the exterior ization of their personality in an interior space. And it's It's really lovely. It's very wonderful to be there. What I love about it is that it expresses says Dana's easygoing liberal artsy sensitivities without giving short shrift to the quality about her that I loved the most which is her capacity for Scabbard self loathing? And it's like the that to me is just the essence of Dana. It's it's like the ability to be some sort of magic urban wood nymph. WHO's moving in a sort of a theory old-fashioned oh fashioned through life without exactly touching? It's hard surfaces combined with these canyons of self doubt and Ed self-deprecation completely put flesh put flashing ordinariness. Were intensity of feeling to this person who otherwise is is sort of floating through life as the bullets whiz passer head. That's my answer. Does that make any discover. self-loathing is a brilliant insight. But I'm just just curious how you see that expressed in my home decor. It's no no no I guess I guess I sort of went at slightly the wrong way I I should say is I love I. I love the fact that you a person capable of those levels of Those recesses of darkness is yet able to live in the world as you live right. It's like there's this incredible equilibrium between a healthy self satisfaction and a salutary. Elliot Ery Self Hatred that I think is just an amazing accomplishment for human being to be able to pull off because for most people. That's like two broken wings but for Dana Somehow is this ability to take flight or at least yes flap halfheartedly along there you go there she he is right And then joy I really to me again. It's like it's like these two things as they balanced against one another are what our wondrous which is that the the ability to manage people and there's actually something that maybe people who listen to podcast don't know they they have a sense that you're incredibly competent. And and well achieved Steve and purposeful. And you're not a sad sack you know sits flashy writer sitting at home alone like banging your head against the laptop screen. But but I would put a little more specificity. To which is over time. It became clear that you have this totally natural ability to manage other people which I as as as I get older I realize is probably among the hardest things to do like to go into a room where there are a bunch of competitive egos and clashing personalities and impose is an agenda on it without making anyone feel as though their voice was unheard Or their volition. Compromised is like a Mozart level. Art Art people feel that they're on a common enterprise right that that whatever they have to contribute is all part of the same making the whole as good as it can be absolutely ended occasionally means like cutting to the fucking chase and keeping the boat moving. I mean it's not about handing out a trophy for every finger painting right and it's like balancing in those two things is incredible but that's only one of the two marvelous wings of Julia Turner because the other one is that just that when Shit goes down in any one of our personal personal lives. There is no more warm sensitive and empathetic voice to get in your head than Julius. I think at the moment where the manager has the the seed you know priority to the human being. It's just an amazing experience to have Jillian noticed that something is going on with you and ask about it and then listen to you. So that's what I would. That's awfully sweet. Oh Man I'm getting all sniffly and I've even gotten to mine in yet okay. Well I shouldn't have gone last because you guys scooped me on some of the qualities that I was gonna mention but there are many more behind those so I guess for Julia's I will say this. This is pretty evident on the podcast and her response to a lot of the works. We talk about but I'll just talk about it as a person in the world as well just Julius sensory Response to the world around her and her love of surface in the best sense her love of color and shape and texture and the way things work and the way. Okay thanks taste and smell. That is something that when you're moving through the world with Julia you're always aware of and then she's always pointing out to you the crispy croissant her favourite croissant plays or criticizing the way that some particular Organic device doesn't work the way it's supposed to. I just feel like the physical world to Julia. Is this very interesting deeply. Textured place I mean like when wrote about the sign edge in in Penn station right on. I've always thought about signing in a different way since then Julia is oriented toward the outside and in a way that's very sensitive. She has big antenna for the outside world. And that's fun to witness as your friend and colleague. I just have to say that I gave my a two Brothers in law that alarm clock. I recommend it earlier this year. That is just the single best piece of industrial design. I have held in my own hands in a decade and like just want to reiterate again that this bronco arm clock is like you're just thinking you think about how much pleasure this well-designed object gives me every single fucking day. I'm going went on the endorse. Oh Matic and look for other linked to Julia points out some sort of technical glitch than I never ceased to notice it. That's down sorry downside and then then I started just say this Goddamn doorknob earner got it right. I'm sending you both alarm clocks for the happy news. As for Steve. I'm GonNa say AH quality that is the opposite of that. Misperception of Steve. That happens sometimes through listeners. Where people think oh because you know? Steve Likes to hold forth on the microphone that he he is some sort of bloviating non listener or non notice things. I will just cite a dinner that I recently had with Steve and some other friends that were all a group of very brilliant voluble people who like to talk and tell stories and drop names and you know we've together anecdotes and Steve. You talked to the least of anyone at the table and yet I can tell that. You're having an absolutely delightful time and that you were just gathering information you know thinking about things that you would wanna read or things that you would music you. Would I wanNA listen to based on the conversation that we're having and I just saw you in this very different mode than how you are on the Gabfest where of course you're hosting so the pressure is on you to talk and be clever and think can make connections but there were you were making those connections just quietly and silently weaving them together inside yourself in it a certain moment I thought like Steve Okay. Because he's not talking much and then I just looked over you and you were just so happy to be in that company and be having that conversation and so that side of you is what I would call out or tweet. That was a beautiful night by the way. Oh my Lord you was yeah. Well that's our call in show for this year. We don't typically endorse on a Colin show. Nothing different about this year. You'll find links to some of the things we talked about today. That's at our show page dot com slash culture invest in. You can email us. We love it when you do. I really mean it at Culture I. It's late DOT com. You can interact with this on twitter. That's at slate cult fest. That's our our feet are producers. Catch a CANOVA. Our production assistant is Rachel Allen. Four Dana Stevens and Julia turnaround. Stephen Metcalfe. Thank you so much for joining us. Happy Holidays we will see you soon and in count What can you do youth through Finger on happy
Ep 24 Albert C. Barnes: Wills of the Rich and Famous With Jacqueline Bevilaqua
"Welcome to the celebrity estates wills of the rich and famous cast in this podcast. We breakdown high profile celebrity estate planning cases for advisors and their clients. Most celebrity estate catastrophes are based on the same issues that everyday people face just with the volume turned up. Our goal is to identify and extract the Individual Estate. Planning issues that lie at the heart of each story. We then discuss what advisers should expect and how to avoid common pitfalls hosted by Wealth Management Dot com senior editor. David Lennox over and welcome to the latest episode of Wealth Management Dot COM CELEBRITY ESTATES. Wills of the rich and famous yet. You're on the right place. If you came for dead celebrity we recently rechristened the show. Since during a global pandemic the previous name was somewhat less than sensitive. Don't worry though. Content and quality of the show will remain the same as before just under a new banner for anyone new to the podcast in each installment myself and guest take on a different celebrity. State attempt to extract. Some key lessons that players can apply to their more traditional clients. The idea being celebrity estate planning catastrophes although often ridiculous in their details generally have at their core very basic issues that can just as easily apply to non famous or fabulously wealthy clients. I'm joined today by Jack Level. Aqua who I believe is now. The first three-time guest of the show is very cool. Honor Jackie's the trust and estates associated law. Firm Kathy Kearns. She's a strong background in state. Planning and estate and trust administration for a diverse clientele and significant experience with complex issues of gift estate entrusted taxation. Jackie also has a strong background in international state planning factor compliance and pre immigration tax. Planning thanks for joining us. Jackie Dave Bahir subjective. Today's episode is Albert C. Barnes Barnes was an American businessman best known for his massively valuable collection that he devoted most of his life to curate the nine hundred piece collection which was worth some twenty five billion dollars featured one hundred eighty-one in-laws sixty nine says on sixty matisses. Forty four Picassos and fourteen Medaglia Ottis to just give a few highlights. Barnes intensely disliked the elite Air quotes of the art world and negated his life to providing education to less fortunate. You defied convention by grouping is our peace based on aesthetics philosophical reasons instead of artists are period Andrea. Matisse said the foundation is the only place to see Harken America Dr Barnes never had children but he took great care to plan for his legacy in one thousand nine hundred eighty two created a title. Trust agreement call the trust indenture. This trust established the Barnes Foundation a charitable organization to manage his art gallery as an educational institution in Lower Merion Pennsylvania. And if that name sounds familiar. That's because it's where Kobe Bryant is cool his lengthen. These documents that was not be sold moved placed on tour or even rearranged within the gallery itself. He wanted used primarily for education but open for the public on a very limited basis. He restricted how it could be viewed when only one day a week usually and how much could be charged to see the restrictions also made it very difficult for the board of to keep the foundation profitable or at least that's what they climbed so little by little a filed corpse-eating asking for permission to change the trust. Provisions Trustees engaged in expensive litigation in court arguing that the terms of Dr Barnes's trust impossible because of the great costs needed to maintain the collection and the final blow. Came in two thousand four when a judge ruled that the Barnes Foundation which now supported by three wealthy and elite Charles Foundations and the Pennsylvania attorney general can move the entire collection to the museum district or Downtime Philadelphia right next door to the Philadelphia Museum of art for context of House offices. Barnes had once said the Philadelphia Museum of art is a house of artistic and intellectual prostitution so safe to say probably not what he wanted. So how could he wishes have been so blatantly disregarded or because of a doctrine of deviation which is a legal principle that allows court effectively rewrite a charitable trust if the purpose becomes impossible to maintain without changes. The trustees argued that there was no financially viable way to keep the art of the building. Dr Bars created for the collection could only be maintained. You'd by permitting the move and I'm sure. The allure of creating a huge tourist attraction by relocating at twenty five billion dollar Philadelphia certainly offered no motivation at all. Now there's more twisters to this story which inspired the excellent documentary the auto steel. And we're not gonNA cover them here. Our focus was just how surprisingly easy. It is to have estate planning documents and wills in particular modified overturned. So Jackie how worried should clients be about how close to the letter? Their estate putting documents will be enforced after they're gone if someone just leaves a will and everything's going outright to their beneficiaries. I think that clients can essentially rest assured as long as they've picked a a trustworthy executor that their wishes are going to be carried out. Same thing with a shorter term trust for beneficiaries. For example. You might leave your child or a younger person Entrust to a certain age. I think that you can probably guarantee who the trustee is going to be or who the trustee and potential successor will be so that you can have pretty good control over these dispositions link where clients do have to worry is especially in this area with long-term charitable dispositions. You have certain people that you're going to put in charge right after your death. Almost a hundred years later you might have an entirely different board running the organization. Different Trustees of a trust and then your vision can start to go awry if you haven't done some really careful planning. What's the difference in this situation between the will and trust and what those different instruments are supposed to do and of what they can do? They can be quite similar documents depending on the type of woman type of trust here we. In the case of Barnes we would have a a well with which essentially disposes of your estate at your death and then we have this trust which established his foundation ultimately to hold this art and carry on this educational mission. This charitable mission rather than necessarily run art museum so that's very different and also obviously Your estate isn't going to last forever. The idea is to administer an estate and have it wrapped up within a year or a few years. This other plan in which the arch foundation was held was mental last. Ideally in perpetuity are as long as possible. And I think that we should talk a little bit more about the doctrine of deviation to and how that's brought us to where we are today in terms of how have you made your wishes known to your fiduciaries how major wishes known your executor if you have a will and how have you made your wishes known to trustees if you have a trust or how we made wishes known to Charitable Corporation. That's going to continue beyond your debt. Obviously some methods making your wishes known or not going to be ultimately legally enforceable when they applied the doctrine of deviation to barnes they essentially were trying to anticipate how could most closely meet. Barnes is desired end. When circumstances changed so I think that something. That's it's important to talk to clients about is what's your ultimate goal and get that in writing. Even if it's not legally enforceable I think if Barnes have been consulted on this and someone had said well it's down to this re they're gonNA move your entire collection right next door to the Philadelphia. Museum are moving out of the suburban setting that you chose change. The way to the artwork is presented from what you designed to something that's perhaps and more accommodating to the General Public. Would you rather have moved? And your vision changed in that way or would you rather sell. Certain pieces certainly arguable. That might have said sell certain pieces or we might have come up with a different way to raise funds to keep the off foundation operating as it was one of the difficulties. When you're dealing with these plans that are intended to last in perpetuity. Right is that that's impossible along the way and you have to anticipate not just through the various scenarios that could occur over the ensuing rest of time but also the legal changes that are and all that stuff is just impossible for an estate plan to like completely for. See it in any way how good you are all. That's kind of why it's best to sort of building at certain points. Some safe spots here where where things can transfer or where where things can change a little bit in some flexibility. Because you know the only fact that you know is that things will change. You have no idea what the changes are going to be necessarily. Yeah in hindsight is twenty twenty but I think that if I were assisting with creating this plan I might ask those questions. If you're endowment runs low in years what changes would you be most okay with if changes had to be made because we never know even if someone gets a hundred million dollar endowment today the market crash could be invested in something that seems really safe at suddenly becomes unsafe or sometimes organizations are even victim of produce aries? Obviously we don't see that very often but it does happen. So how are we going to necessarily plan for all contingencies? That can happen there including running out of money to keep the operation going until depicted the night honestly in this situation despite what I just said. It's kind of the most obvious question right pure album. Barnes's stay planner and he's putting all these rules saying people can come in once a week and it can only be X. People at once and you can only charge this or it's just simple math. Look at and be like well. Rent costs this much to say like a house. It's going to work out. And would Albert Barnes of preferred to allow more people in at a time or preferred to have partnered perhaps with the city of Philadelphia or even with Philadelphia Museum of art to transport people easily from Philadelphia to Marion in that suburb where he was located rather than have the artwork moved. I think people describe Albert Barnes being someone who got what he wanted and who might not have been particularly open to hearing different perspectives. But I think that this is the kind of thing where if someone brought in this concept for an estate plan. You'd have to push back if the individual wasn't willing to sort of look at the different contingencies and plan for them and I think that you know now we have the example of Albert Barnes if someone doesn't WanNa plan for different contingencies. We can say okay but if these unforeseen things happen we want to know. We most like your opinion on what should happen because that can be instructive for how changes should be made. And if you don't provide it you're leaving it up to the court and you're leaving it up to whoever might be in charge of these assets or your plan to one hundred years after death. And that's probably someone who has no personal connection with you concede the Barnes case the smallest possible genuine to the most closely adhering to your wishes can be nowhere near what his wishes clearly would have been right out in. My last possible thing you to do was hurt. His Art to go to this autumn quote elites in the Philadelphia Museum. It's also possible. That was the best way to do it now. You know it's sort of a a weird situation. Where even sometimes the closest possible best solution can be the last thing that person would want if they haven't specified right exactly. I mean he might have wanted everything to be sold and wound down if it got to this point. But we'll never know because obviously it wasn't anticipated the endowment would deplete to the point that they were in grave financial trouble but these are the kind of questions that we need to think of as a state planners. And that's why we why we study things that's why we read case law. People might not have been as aware of these problems back in nineteen twenty two or back. No one this estate plan was initially created but we have the benefit of an extra hundred or so years of history to guide us in making a state clowns. Obviously don't think that most of our listeners have clients with twenty five billion dollars collections. That they're gonNA have to worry about this about unless you do. In which case awesome. Why the Hell you listening to me? You know. I think this concept of what porn was doing this idea of dead hand control and sort of the risks inherent in that and the natural idea that sort of the natural tendency toward of powerful people to want to do that is something that can be instructive for all advisors regardless whether working on estate planning on vacuum. I'm just talking about the dead hand a little bit with that. Mean a good way to phrase it. It's essentially trying to control beyond your death. What happens to your assets as we discussed at the beginning of this podcast? It works best for a shorter amount of time in the longer. It's been since your death the harder it can be. For example sometimes clients will want a particular financial firm or financial advisor to be working on their assets. That usually works fine. If it's just going to be your estate but if you have perhaps a lengthy trust and you might not even think you have a lengthy trust. You mentioned that most listeners probably don't have huge art collections to dispose of. But if you have younger people in your life either. Children Nieces and nephews. Whoever even the children of family friends? Who might be inheriting from you? You have to anticipate that if these kids are three years old today you might be putting something in your estate plan that has assets in them for trust until they're thirty five forty so that's going to be a fairly lengthy amount of time and if you're restricting to certain financial advisers. We don't know what could happen with that. For example people retire financial firms emerge and go under and it might not be clear what to do in those situations so I do try to draft with a certain amount of flexibility to address these issues but aside from the drafting. I try to take really detailed notes on why we're doing something. What the client actually wants in case we do get into this issue? Because you know people. And we've talked about this in our other podcasts when people are disposing of assets other death how whatever amount it is it tends to be their life work their life's work and also even if they're leaving one hundred thousand dollars which might not be much to certain people are leading one hundred thousand dollars to a much younger person who's been a big part of their life and they wanna see it worked for that person in the best way possible. There's a lot that can go into creating an estate plan and especially if someone wants to exercise this sort of post mortem control over the assets that may not be one hundred percent legally enforceable. It might not be in the documents but I think we have the state planners need to not only get this information about what a client is trying to do but also make sure that we retain it in a way that it's GonNa come back to US fifteen years later when we might need to actually implement the plan or even it needs to be available to another attorney who will be implementing the plan Even though we're talking about certain things saying may not be legally enforceable doesn't mean just ignore it right once you've been to these questions about an estate even if it's a seemingly obvious question on its face once the person isn't there to explain it. Everything gets very very vague so at that point even if something's not even have these documents that say do this. That in the trust may not be legally enforceable but second. We're sitting here trying to figure out piece together. What this person would have wanted. What their intent was of this dead person? Who's not there to tell us than all the evidence that we have even if no one piece. You can't slam it on the table and be like this means this. We're GONNA do this. It just all adds up to sort of okay. Well now. This can inform this decision. Even if it's kind of out of our is right it goes to what are the donors ends. What are the goals of the person making an estate plan? You create a plan to implement those ends in those goals but having a detail accounting of what those goals are can be instructive on applying the doctrine of deviation when needed the dog new Jason. Here because for the fairly obvious probably the most common reason that we see this is that there just wasn't enough money to allegedly wasn't enough money to keep foundation going. What are some other reasons baby? Trust may be modified really depends on the circumstances. We talk about putting a certain financial advisor into a trust. Well that person might unexpectedly retire. You might have a case where so recently. California started taxing trusts based on the location of a trustee in California. So you might have a close family friend who you wanted to be the trustee of your testamentary trust and you created your will before this was going to be an issue or you appointed. Let's say a New York resident trustee and then that person moves to California. Suddenly they can be there. And all of a sudden California's trying to impose an income tax obligation a state income tax obligation on the trust. Based on the location of the trustee nutcase. You would probably want to remove the trustee you might also have something in there to the effect of monies to be distributed to so and so at age twenty five while when you made the trust so and so might be doing fine however when someone reaches age twenty five and they might be going through a contentious divorce. They might be having legal trouble. They might simply not be in a position to inherit large amount of money. It's good to create and you can actually do this document Some flexibility for trustees to withhold distributions. That have been mandated in your documents. If certain unforeseen circumstances arise Such as contentious divorce such as this person is has a guardian appointed for them on and you can also say for other unforeseen circumstances. Yes you're giving a certain amount of leeway to your trustees but you're also providing the best possibility for your goals being met because it's really going to be someone's goal that person they care about. Get to certain amount of money so that that person cared about can either have it taken from them right away or can blow it building this flexibility even though sort of cuts directly against maybe with the instinct of the sort of the did hand control. He wants really the most way to to to build in flexibility jurors state right. You can't was the other option. Is that you're going to have a trust. That's fifty thousand pages long and reads like some crazy ginger adventure book or it's like this then this this and this and that's just for something. Sure for the big things that are obviously going to happen. Maybe it's something big dangers or it's like Oh for money. And then that's fine but for anticipating future legal changes or anything like that or what's your four generations that align descendants are going to do with the world even going to be like? This is just really more realistic to pick the correct trustee in an empower them to do things. I think that's why we've seen sort of in a lot of areas the growth in popularity like the trust the protector of this person. Who just kind of like overall watches over everyone involved in the trust. And it's kind of like I wanNA make sure that the intent is followed kind of even if I'm not individually working with anything and I think sometimes people create a state plans thinking whoever will be implementing it will always be someone that Abe known or. It will always be there child. That's not always the case you know. People have different reasons that they want to step out of certain positions and even without person wanting to step down. Sometimes circumstances changed so that someone that you've appointed or that you know can no longer implement your plan. And that's why I think careful. Planning detailing of your wishes is important because if you for example have a fiduciary trust company stepping in. That's not going to be someone you've known. They're more stepping in as an entity or business capacity but at the same time it helps for them to receive letters of wishes or other written documentation on what your actual goals are you. Also you can beat a document. That's been drafted for you. But you know what your goals are so it might make perfect sense to you. What should be done based on the reading of the document but someone taking it over and reading it thirty years later might have a completely different interpretation of the same verbiage. This is the stupid family guy. Joke about the the right to bear arms whereas the it's the two founding fathers being like how much for obviously can we make this? Every family has a right to have a pair of stuffed bear arms. Hang on their wall in the district pans to stuffed bear arms sticking out of the wall. This is this idea like that's very silly version of it but series like Tom. Petty like what does equal million thing that came up in that case it was just like he knew it equal. Antonino what he meant but now having sat seemingly simple thing written down to take him out of the equation what what did he mean by equal. Jackie we're just about running on time here but I think sort of the general theme of this episode has been that you know the longer you want a plan or you intend to plant to effect until last into the future. This more problems arise on the more difficult it can be to sort of make that plan and ensure that plan meets the wishes of of the deceased puts the the one thing we can take away from here. That plan really need to watch out for when they're trying to look so far to the future need to do a lot troubleshooting when you're looking very far into the future. One thing I would do if I had a plan like this with very specific goals in mind is once it's drafted have someone who doesn't know what the clients goals are review it and see what they think. The goals are made how they think that this would be administered. And make sure that they're to tell and whatever they're not able to discern from your documents might need to be revised or you might need to go back to the client with that and see how you can make it more clear and I think just constant communication with clients and getting their wishes down taking really detailed notes. That's that's always helpful. It's helpful today. Drafting DOCUMENTS IN. It's going to be helpful in the future and getting all this down and I think also just planning for contingencies thinking outside the box do not just what could happen the next five years but what could happen in the next fifty years and is it worth the extra time to address it into come up with clans? Abyan see of course in the case of a Barnes Foundation. Yes it would have been worth the extra time fulltime. We have folks. I like to thank you for joining us once again. If it wasn't going to be a great guest thanks a lot Dave and I just want to quickly mentioned Cova. Nineteen in terms of estate. Planning I know that people are a little nervous understandably at this time and I just wanted to remind everyone that recently the ability to witness certain documents such as wills and healthcare proxy has been moved to allow audiovisual contemporaneous. Witnessing without actually having a witnesses present we also have a similar rule. That is in effect through. I believe may seven four notation of documents so I just want to remind everyone that estate planners are opened for business in terms of getting these documents done for you if you need help in this troubling time anything that can give people a little piece of mind always great especially if it's just a good idea in the first place. Oh definitely take that under advisement right. Absolutely thanks so much for having me on Dave pleasure. Thanks for coming on for the audience. I'll see you. You'll hear me on the next episode of Wealth Management Dot Com celebrity estates wills of the rich and famous. Thank you for listening to the celebrity estates wills of the rich and famous podcast flick. The subscribe button below to become notified. New episodes become available information. Covered in posted represents the views and opinions of the gas and does not necessarily represent the views or opinions of INFORMA- wealth management dot com. The content has been made available for informational and educational purposes. Only the content is not intended to be a substitute for professional investing advice. Always seek the advice of your financial advisor or other qualified financial service PROVIDER WITH ANY QUESTIONS. You may have regarding your investment planning.
Companies and Consumers Show Their True Colors During the Crisis
"HP our presents. Hi everyone you're listening to after hours. I'm young I'm Mir. Im Felix. How you guys doing doing okay? Yeah have you been productive at home? I have decided to call this period. My life degree right off the quick degree right off. Turn your back last month and a half and just call it a big time to get some house projects Dan. Rae God is true. I'm very pleased with my most recent house. So I am de Branding my house so I'm going room by ro I'm taking any label and eliminating it with the exception of the brands. I Latin if you think about your bathroom counter. Every shampoo low share toothpaste is like an ass car automobile brandy and his all of it away we. How did you take it all away? Are you going into like little small plastic bottle? No so if the shape of the bottle is something I like already. I peel it off very carefully. And in many cases it comes off really cleanly and you can create a bathroom counter a kitchen counter a Home Office that just looks so pristine and clean US apple store. This is like the most brilliant procrastination project ever my son's mom. I can't tell the lotion conditioner at this project to the urgent reasons why we need to end to lock down the fact that our professor here is getting rid of all the brands in. That's really troubling now. Because the ones that you decide to keep then they really pop. This is like the Marie Condo of branding or something like early. The brands that sparked joy. Do you keep. Yeah that's exactly right and it's kind of like it's like cleansing your palate. It's like it's like the slice of ginger between each bite of Sushi. It's like the little sorbet between courses in a seven course meal. Exac so Felix idea for what we might talk about tonight. You know how people say. During a crisis. True colors are revealed. You learn things about people and companies and even countries that normally either. You don't pay much attention to it or it's hard to see and then during really unusual times and brings out the character and I thought we could talk about this task. I love colors. They're like so many soundtrack possibilities with truecar. Yes we'll turn it into a movie if IT TURNS OUT. Nice all right. What's your best example of true colors during this pandemic so when you mentioned true colors my head went not to a particular company per se but more to a phenomenon if you think about it. We now have to global crises that were dealing with simultaneously. We have the corona virus but we still also have climate change and to me. This is really underscored the psychological power in the narrative energy crisis that's perceived to be acute an exceptional as opposed to a crisis is perceived to be ongoing and slower moving to sleep for all of the really valid criticisms about how we're managing corona virus. One could make the argument that it is enormously impressive. How our country and other countries have responded? If you had told me a few months ago that we would have the ability and the will to shut down the entire economy on the basis of an invisible virus. A lot of people are skeptical about. I wouldn't have believed you and yet we've done it. Meanwhile when it comes to our other global crisis climate change we not only find it difficult to muster up any momentum. We actually seem to be moving in the opposite direction so even over the past couple of weeks the current administration has continued to roll back environmental protections in effect over the past four years this administration has repealed or weakened close to one hundred environmental regulations. So I find the contrast here to be so revealing and find the ironies to be everywhere so for example. The krona virus has totally heightened. I think our appreciation for the outdoors for being able to be outside feel the sunshine smell the air and it's given us a glimpse of what our cities could look like with less smog. Less pollution there cities were wild. Animals are now grown streets. Just kind of amazing. Scientists are already predicting the largest annual drop in carbon emissions in modern history. But they're also predicting that twenty twenty will still be the hottest year on record and so I find the contrast in how we think about these two things to be really revealing. It's interesting to me about that. Young meals that you could imagine displayed in two different ways. You could imagine that. Actually the current virus amplifies our efforts to fight climate. Change because of some of the reasons you said and you could equally imagine it the other way which is the economic pressure. That's going to come from the need. For an economic recovery is going to make people wanna put aside environmental regulations because of so-called jobs and both sides are getting ready to make their argument even more strongly than before because of the crow virus. So they're gonNA use the argument. You know some people will use it to kind of lesson environmental standards because they feel like the job. Losses are too great and others will use it as a view to say. Well this is exactly why we have to save the plan. What's interesting to me about this particular examples? I always had a sense. That climate change is so hard because we used to predict that the severe consequences. Oh so far into future so the moment we had the fires in California or in Australia tuition was gonna change everything because all of us are now we see. This is not something that will happen sometime in the future. This is something that happens right here right now and we need to act right here and right now and then for some reason. It didn't really happen that way even though now the manifestation is so clear so in your face we don't have to reaction that I at least expected and I'm still puzzled by that. I mean you imagine us talking about climate change in a much more urgent way right. We need to flatten the curve. The next three years the next ten years are really critical and therefore we need to radically shift our behavior. You just don't see that kind of momentum for super interesting Felix what did you bring in? So I have observed a response of companies to the current crisis and after say I have so much admiration for the small number of companies that just proven to be exceptionally nimble and adaptable I'll give you a few examples. There is a smallish grocery chain based in Austin Texas. Heb De richest remarkable in every aspect of their response. Maybe the most marvellous part about what they have done this. They have recognized very early on that yes. There will be peak demand for some products but it also means that there will be slack in supply chains in other respects. You know how everybody is always talking about. Completely stressed out supply chains. There's no capacity to do Xyz but at the same time of course it's also true that big parts of supply chains have been shut down so for instance they partner with a delivery business that usually caters to restaurants. All the restaurants are closed. You can use all of these trucks to bring food and supplies to the grocery stores the beer distributors in Texas. Now you start trucks to transport eggs to Heb and it's this ingenuity that I find completely fascinating and then frankly in such stark contrast to much of agriculture You probably heard about the miserable response. Ver Dumping millions of gallons of milk. There is a single farmer in Idaho who has destroyed more than a million pounds of onions. There is a chicken farm that destroys seven hundred and fifty thousand aches every single day. And when you drill down in the ask why you basically get to answers while it doesn't pay to give away the food to food banks which given that. This is an unusual situation. Seems like a very weak argument. And when you push say well you know. The logistic is complicated. I the logistics complicated but dairy farmers of America. That's a cooperative with profit last year of more than one hundred million dollars. You Really WanNa tell me. They don't have to financial resources to some have reconfigured their supply chain so many times in this crisis. I'm just incomplete are what some people can do and then like just really really disappointed that big agriculture break farms. I think just completely failed at a time when food banks are out of food at a time when there's miles and miles of traffic jams people trying to feed their families. The great thing about that example especially this story about. Heb and all these grocers are doing interesting things. Is You know we've spent the last decade or two just basking in the on genuity of tech and there are these whole sectors of the economy where people are so ingenious and they're using kind of really interesting innovations to adapt a change really fast and we've lost sight of all that. That's what I love about that story. I think there's also just such an important lesson here for any consumer of business news and that is whenever you see a company doing something that looks sort of ridiculous like dumping a bunch of food throwing tons and tons of milk away and you ask them. What's going on there? That looks ridiculous. They will always have a really smart reason for why they're doing it. It's not a dummies true. Yes and they will explain in great detail that reengineering a supply chain requires new relationships and contracts between suppliers and distributors and retailers. It requires different packaging for shipping and merchandizing different production processes different trucking routes. And so. It's a money losing proposition to try to do it and even if we wanted to do it we couldn't do it. And so you think Oh okay that makes so much sense. It's really hard to do. That's why they can't do it. And then you turn around and you look at a company. That's actually figured out how to do so true and it could be a small company or could be a big company but they figured out how to do it even though nothing about the reason to not do it no no. That's wrong in fact it is hard. It's hard to reengineer. Science is hard to package different. It's hard to change a production processes but yet some companies make the decision that they're going to go down the path and try to do it in other companies. Just don't and I think it's really important to absorb rationale for why companies do illogical things with a little bit of skepticism. Because even though they might be right in their explanation is still not necessarily a satisfactory explanation. I think the so true and as you point out young I think there's lots of questions but there's also you know. Are you really dying to do this or not? An in particular. I'm thinking of the twenty two billion dollars in subsidies that we spend on farming in this country every year and frankly it breaks my heart to see so little initiative that really then rises to the occasion. You hear. What else do you see out there? So we talked last week a little bit about the Federal Reserve but I think this whole crisis is shining a light on banks in a really interesting way so we know the disappoint with paycheck protection program about how smaller customers have been left aside. Bigger companies have done much much better in terms of getting access to credit. But the real thing. I think that we've learned is banks have really lost the kind of frontline contact with customers and so we're in a situation where we rely on them with the Federal Reserve to do so much in the economy and yet we know that they are more and more not the main line touch with consumers so for example we know through consumer credit that it's increasingly being originated outside of banks we know mortgages are increasingly being originated outside of banks. We know lending especially riskier. Lending is increasingly being originated outside Banks Leveraged Loan Market Hedge Funds Private Equity. And we know that a lot of individuals barely think about deposits anymore because they put into a Robin Hood APP or they go to digital bank to me. The interesting thing that we're seeing here is man. We think we can use banks to solve big problems in the economy and yet they're kind of out of touch with customers more and more and to me that has been a real lesson to me. It's also illuminated the cracks in how we create different business segments so for example the paycheck protection program. There's been a lot of conversation about small and medium-sized businesses. That is a segment that encompasses everything from a business with ten thousand employees to a single individual proprietor. A one man or one woman shop So what you're pointing out is at the line between that microbusiness and a consumer is actually very very small and the chasm between a single individual business and a medium sized business is enormous and said to expect a bank to be able to cater to both in a similarly nimble way. It doesn't surprise me that the banks have proven themselves to be remarkably clumsy at this. It's hard thing to do that. Meaning how do you trade off like there's a ten thousand person firm who wants him credit and there's one person and in some sense we have outsourced to them and I think on top of that I guess I feel like they understand customers less well than they used to because of the changing role of the Credit March? My first thing tuition was that is a manifestation of our reflects to always side with small business. Is Somehow the mythology we know that much of what's good about this comes from big businesses? Big businesses are innovative. Big businesses. Pay Their worker better street worker. Betters everything you want from business more true for large companies than for small companies and yet for just in love with small companies for as far as I can tell almost no good reason so this is just like another example of how everybody's up in arms if the loan goes to the five hundred employee company as opposed to the two personal company. If you care about the efficiency of these programs why would you wanNA process alone if it protects the paycheck to people? When with essentially the same amount of work? You could protect two paychecks. A five hundred people if you're the manager in that bank. What should your priorities be of? Course you prioritize the bigger business but somehow in the press and I think the general response is just to say. Oh my God you're only catering to the large enterprises. I'm more troubled by the fact that there's a demonization of the larger small businesses. That's the part that troubles me. I actually think there's a strong argument. For why if you're going to put out a program that is designed to be a bailout for small businesses including micro-businesses than you have to bail out the micro businesses but I don't think that gives you licensed then to attack the larger small businesses. Who Happen to be received bailout checks in part. The reason I linked to the banks is the whole idea in a way behind. The larger picture is oh banks have information and they know these people and therefore they'll be able to the right way to distribute these loans and guess my lesson from all this is. I don't know if that's true anymore. I don't think they have the connections with customers in the way that we kind of think in our minds and that to me is the revelation. What are you see out there so I wanted to talk about Amazon rule okay? This is revealed so much about Amazon. In many ways it has exacerbated my already love hate relationship with Amazon so on the left side for so many people Amazon has become absolutely indispensable during the shutdown and it has had to make a series of dramatic changes in order to do so so to Felix your point earlier about the rigidity of some companies in their inability to pivot versus other companies. That are able to give it. Amazon is an example of a huge company. That has pivoted dramatically. It's been hiring like crazy. It shut down a lot of its business associated with non essential goods. It's ramped up. Its supply of essential goods for a company this large to pivot so quickly without fanfare without drama to change its logistic supply chain purchasing flow so effectively. It's amazing imagine saying to target starting tomorrow. We want you to turn off your entire supply chain behind clothing toys in. Oh by the way quintupled your supply of essential goods. I mean crews can't imagine target being able to do on top of it. It's worth noting how critical. Aws and other cloud services have been in this crisis so we talk about services like zoom and we praise him for how well they've handled the dramatic increase in traffic but a lot of that credit should actually go to aws and the other cloud services that carry and support. That traffic so Amazon is propping up a big chunk of the economy in ways that we take for granted and yet because this is a company that is built on the backs of hourly workers who have limited power and limited leverage. It continues to be hard to be a cheerleader for this company. And for the record I find so much of the media coverage on Amazon to be unfair lacking context. And also as we've discussed in this podcast. I find a lot of the antitrust arguments about Amazon to be unconvincing but I still find it really hard to dismiss the criticisms that they could be doing even more to protect the health and safety of their hourly workers and I do think it's probably the case that I'm holding Amazon to a higher standard. Because my guess is the working. Conditions are not any worse than they are at companies like Fedex or Walmart but given how strong this company is. I do hold them to a higher standard. It's I think young me. This is a great call in a way because I too have felt an intensification of the love and the hate writing which has always been loved with Amazon. And I feel that even more pronounced today than ever before and I to share your concerns about workers rights. I wonder if our love hate thing is maybe two sides of the same coin. Which is I think if an Amazon person was here they would say it. Is that flexibility? It is the ability to do what we can do with our workers that allows us to be able to respond in this way now. I wouldn't make that argument but I'm wondering if in there is. It is two sides of the same coin. Yes we are fantastic. Adopting and delivering. Well guess what. That's because we have a flexible workforce. We do these things and I hate to say that young me. But would you buy that argument? I buy parts of it particularly when it comes to some of their operational processes but when there are problems that could be solved by throwing more money at it. That's where I think. The argument breaks down. This is a company that does have financial resources. And there's some things that they could be doing better paid sick leave as an example. I mean things you can solve by just throwing money at it. Their stock is at an all time. High I mean economies are to stand still. The stock is at an all time high if there were a company that could afford to invest additional resources in their employer's right now. This is a company that it's investors would absolutely absolutely tolerate that. And so that's the part. I really struggle with you. But it's interesting. It's an interesting combination of flexibility and inflexibility right operationally when it comes to their supply chain. Dr Hugely flexible but when it comes to this complete focus on customer needs and get customers as quickly as possible at the lowest possible price. That is actually very inflexible. And that's sort of. The philosophy is very fixed but the management practices around which more flexible all right. What else do you have me here? So the other thing that has been really interesting to me to look at is we tend to think about big tech as monolithic and as being very cozy with each other and I think what we're going to start to see with advertising coming down. We're going to see rivalry. I think amongst big tech players that may we've never seen before and so if you think about facebook and Google the two big advertising businesses but of course young me as you pointed out before in this podcast the increasing strength of Amazon on advertising as well I think when you see what are GonNa conceivably be really significant reductions in AD spending and potentially in digital aspects. Of course the bigger players will get more powerful and get larger shares. But it's going to be the first time the pool is really dwindling and if dwindles in a really significant way. I think the rivalry we're GONNA see emerging is going to be really really intense and so we tend to think of big tech is kind of all these big players who are monolithic and super powerful but in an advertising crush which is conceivably. What will have what happens? Because they've all grown up in a rising tide so here Amazon just fired arguably the first salvo. Yuccas stay pretty radically slashed the affiliate fees they pay like eighty percent. Or something right. I mean it's crazy so we are going to see competition and dynamics that we've never seen before in that advertising world and I think people who worry Oh my God. These people are all monopolies and they're all too big. You're going to see them. Just fight it out and just the competitive dynamic between them alone is going to be something to watch. And of course a huge difference between businesses where advertising compliment Amazon versus where advertising is the main product at advertising zero main product while you are in deep trouble right now if you're Google facebook that second revenue stream doesn't really exist so this is just the beginning of this advertising driven world. You know maybe coming apart the seem so. I think it's going to be really interesting to watch. Give another one young me you know. I just find that one of the things that this crisis has revealed is how weak the corporate communications function is in so many companies when the crisis hit. My inbox began filling with emails. I from my bank. Hey here's what we're about corona virus and we want you to know we are in this together and then from every hotel I've ever frequented from every era electric cable company. Of course the real purpose behind the emails was actually to communicate the opposite. And tell us hey if you need something and need to call us. No one is going to answer the phone. The other thing that has really is how bad companies are at giving bad news. We are canceling your flights. We are not issuing refunds. Sorry but hey we want you to know we are in this together. Companies are so sophisticated at so many things can be right. Oh yes everybody goes to and then in the beginning one you can forgive easily but if you're at the two hundred ninety seven company and you know you have not been particularly fast. Maybe you think you would have learned something from the mass communication back when before but actually no. You're just repeating the same mistake but I'm puzzled. Why is it like inattention at the C. Suite level or is it like just everyone is so ham fisted about these things or is it that they try to accomplish too many things at the same time under normal operating conditions is something that doesn't get a lot of attention except IT companies? That have truly made a commitment to real customer service. I mean there are exceptions and the exception really stand out and I also think companies under appreciate how much positive affiliation can result from getting it right during times of crises. But look the same is true for internal communications. You've seen a lot of companies have to furlough workers And you've seen companies just going about it in the most insensitive horrible way. And then you've also seen companies who have bent over backwards to think really hard and creatively about how to provide as much of safety net as possible to those furloughed workers. So you see the full spectrum. That's a good one. You've got one yes. I have one more so as I was thinking about two colors. I was actually thinking about one of the suggestions that you had made very early on. Bahir member how you said. Oh interest rates are really low. The next thing that we should do is really big infrastructure project and is happening except it's China. It's not the United States and what's particularly interesting about this. Pushing China is a significant fraction of it is geared towards what they now call New Infrastructure. Which is sort of the wave of the future because if anything. China has enough roads and raise rains and can positively so. Now they're making a really concerted effort its investments in data centers artificial intelligence five G. networks and then particularly important ultra high voltage transmission which they really emphasized. Now just you know using this moment and anther placing their bets in. I think very smart way. Mahir. I remember you mentioned one of the First Corona Virus Pass. We did and it was a little too early for me to even begin thinking about that because it really is sort of the next step. It's the emergency rescue blended sort of the next step. But it's not too early now salzgitter thinking about it. And what is interesting about your comment about China? Felix's every time this topic gets mentioned here. Domestically the conversation gets shut down almost immediately even though even the president seems to have some appetite. It's just the likelihood of something getting done seems so low right now in our political climate and the paradox to me is before the pandemic it looks as if Democrats and Republicans might actually agree on. Maybe not a huge effort. But you know some sizable effort. Next thing you know is interest rates. Go Down we now have negative real interest rates and then all of these plans evaporate. Yeah of course the closer we get to the election there's going to be zero economic preparedness. Do Anything so. That's a real shame. Okay Picks Phoenix. What's your pick this week so my pickiest to go to an online museum so you know how. Lots of museums basically have two collections. Online's essentially Google images. Yes exactly right Google images and then if they're a little more sophisticated it's like Google maps. I think there's good number of examples are actually really interesting at the Barnes Foundation in Philadelphia. They have a really interesting way. So you choose a particular painting and then you have a slider right next to it and you slide a slide or back and forth and you can see similar kinds of paintings or you can see the same seem still but someone that had a very different take on the same topic that I think is for me is really nice. Example of something that you can do in digital that is basically impossible to do if you go to the actual museum the Walker Art Center in. Minneapolis have interesting combination of particular pieces of art and then short films almost like video installations that you would see in a museum and again you can play around with various combinations or you can go back in time. If you go to the Palestinian zoom in Beijing they have all exhibitions since two thousand and five and so you can see how the way things get exhibited how that changes over time all of those. I think are examples of experiences that you cannot easily have really museum but in digital museums. I think those are really nice. That's a great call Felix in part because museums are really suffering right now. And I don't know if they're monetization possibilities alongside this but God if there's an industry that's really hurting. It's these nonprofit museums who are just stock. So that's a great pick. That's Nice I like that. Okay Mahir what do you have? So just a quick follow up. Which is after. I recommended Walter last week. Felix noted to me that there is a Swedish original version. And it's with Christopher Henriksson who I have now watched Felix and it is fantastic. It's good to write in some ways. It's better actually than John Brennan Anyway. So there's Swedish original version which I think you can also take a look at but that's not my pick my pick is so we're doing follow ups to well. I might just reiterate. Yeah we'll just better call saul the final finale and it was even better just to follow up your you know me. Here's Pixar like a weed. They grow and grow every week. Turn NEXT THIS IS MY PICTURE. Next week is going to be a weed in anyway. So my pick for the week is obvious. We've all been doing lots more cooking at home and I have found that one pot recipes are fantastic and in particular my recipe pick for the week is a Dutch baby. Excuse me yeah. A Dutch baby is a fantastically simple pancake. It's eggs flour. You put it into a mixture with some butter and you put it in the oven. And it's a one pan recipe the recipe on the New York Times by Florence fabrication is legendary legendary. It's a legendary recipe. Mix it all together put in a cast iron skillet and you bake it and it puffs up and it's a beautiful pancake and kids love it so this is a ten minute way to look like a hero because you create a puffy beautiful. It's almost like a Yorkshire Pudding. Kind of a thing and kids go crazy for it. You put some powder trigger on it. It's called a Dutch. Babies called the Dutch baby. And IT'S WEIRD ORIGINS. Just ligon flower. It's German pancake actually. So it's kind of has its origins as a German Pancake. And the best part about it is. It's so fast and you look like a hero because it comes out almost Nicole News Kinda like anyway so Dutch baby super easy way to look like a professional chef and give your children breakfast. You know. Real easy wet fabulous. I don't know that I could pull something called the Dutch baby out of every ten minutes. It'll be like hey. Is it because people in the Netherlands are so tall actually tried to look into the origins of the name and I couldn't find it time going to challenge our listeners? If anybody knows the origins of the name please let us all right so my recommendation is for the subset of our audience. Who Really Really Miss. Live sports? Espn is airing a ten. Part documentary called the last dance. That takes a look at Michael Jordan's final season as a Chicago bull and it's just so delicious to watch you know how sometimes you watch athletes from a previous generation. And they're not as fast. They're not as athletic What's riveting to watch in? This documentary is Michael Jordan in his athletic pride. There's just no question that if he were to play today's players he would still completely dominate. It's also going to be. Because I only watched the first two episodes it's going to be riveting. To Watch the birth of his marketing power his emergencies brand icon and then as an individual personality. He was a really somewhat controversial person because he wasn't degrade teammate. He was tough to play with. And it's all apparently there. I saw the first episode. I don't pay attention to sports now. Young but back then I was like a huge basketball fan and I have to say it's fantastic. Espn does such a great job with those longer documentaries. I mean they're just stunningly as you point out what's interesting to me young me is. He's a kind of controversial guy both because of personality stuff. He's super competitive. I mean crazy competitive and the marketing side and also the apolitical side to him. So he's fascinating and watching him play. Forget how absolutely magnificent he was so anyway. That's my pitch. That's a great one. Felix's skirling through art museums. I watching Michael Jordan doing three sixty. That's it for this week. Thanks everyone for listening. This is after hours in the HP. Our podcast so just you know guys the ones that. I ended up not using about true colors number one men and facial hair. Oh my God he everyone. Has these big beards now. I my son's hair out but usually young me you know for like you've been given us compliments about the facial hair. Let me be clear. I love six o'clock shadow when it starts to get bushy. I can't even though you know I think for your son's the problem might be that they don't recognize the bottle that have shaving creams Kerzner. Snow brand exactly. I give you a video tour of my bathroom. It's unbelievable greatest. I've ever heard me talk.
Philly: Best Things To Do
"Worldly the movie rocky about in the US may maybe the declaration of independence edges out sly stallone there what do you think is more famous the movie rocky or the signing of the Declaration of independence because I if we're talking hello any other city in the world and I'll let you know at the end of the show like art will then Philly has you covered because Philly is absolutely awash in art it has over two thousand outdoor murals and as more impressionist paintings about some really kid friendly stuff because Philadelphia is packed with that and also some really great activities for without kids yes adults and sculptures than every other city in the world except one take a guess what city in the world has more impressionist paintings and sculptures than a friendly city I think I mean maybe not necessarily right in center city but in the outskirts of the city yeah and why don't we start kind of for families and so we're definitely gonNA touch on that today yeah it definitely has just so many cool museums in playgrounds and it's very I remember going everyone's like Oh we're going here today do you WanNa come in I would go and thought wild billy has some really amazing stuff for kids and Tom Shocking I can't believe that but you stick them all these cool places in Philly this is ten fifteen fifteen yeah ten fifteen years ago and and so five part Philly destination diary series part one was neighborhoods and where to stay if you missed that check it out part two was all the best places to eat that was the longest one of course part three uh-huh beer we talked about cocktails we talked about the steelers you can check out and then part five today the best activities in Philly and I mentioned that you even before she had kids knew all the best places to take children my wife my concentration in Philly in Philly not all the best place to take children around the world infant they just didn't really this is our last part of our destination battery are updated destination diary and it's all about activities so we will be adult I mean we've talked about if you guys have been listening a lot of quote unquote adult activities eating drinking I mean that was kind of like kids are not gonNa love going to geography and neighborhoods but we're GONNA west East to make it fairly easy and we're GONNA start at one of the most iconic images of Philly the no no the movie rocky when he runs up the steps and at the top he's jumping around at the end of that training montage that actually at the Philly art museums was the best breakfast brunch and coffee spots had really got to shine on that once you know her she loves her breakfast she really loves her coffee part four with the best places to drink oh west to east again you know I'm not gonNA listen to my neighborhood's well listen my neighborhood part one then you know I love you all the best things to do even with like kids while before we had kids could use to nanny two little boys who just are now in one in highschool which in Wales McConnell places in Philly and you might know it as the rocky steps so if you've ever seen the movie rocky which a lot of people have especially people in Japan they all if bars in ruin right now six restaurants right those are adult activities but if you haven't been listening or you haven't been listening either way this is part five Schrevel nerd and welcome to the extra pack peanuts travel podcast the show that teaches you how to travel more while spending less I'm host Travis Sherry and joining me today is someone who people always say oh I'm going to the rocky steps technically not it's real name it's the steps of the Philadelphia Art Museum yes and the art museum itself is a beautiful building gene the steps are gorgeous walking up the steps and then turning around you get the best view I think of center city that you can really have for free without looking down on Benjamin Franklin Parkway and so even if you don't want to go in and see the art which is a very good art museum it has a lot of great exhibits and we love going there but if you just want to go up the steps that's a great thing to do yeah I mean people do it constantly you will not the whole gardens in the back as well and there's a new new ish walking path that goes along the river and is is quite long trust me be the only tourist running up the steps and filming yourself at the top it's constant there's a rocky statue at the bottom you can take your picture with but affiliate especially with that Kelly drive area there so that area really starts the museum district and the road there is called Benjamin Franklin Parkway Franklin Institute which is an Amazing Science Museum it has lots of great traveling exhibits that come through and has really fun pretty new there so that area itself is just a really really fun area to hang out to kind of be outside in Philly one of the most green areas along Kelly drive along boathouse row ending at the art museum or starting depending and let me edit that that is not new that's old right but there is also a newer pat that has a bike path right next to it and this big green space we can space and sit on the banks of the river and hang out and that did not exist like three or four years ago I think it's it's and stuff like that so you'll see people out rowing on the river that's probably the best place in Philly to go for a leisurely shawl or a bike ride or anything like that up and down areas just for kids in it with a heart that you can walk through and space area it's a fantastic news I remember as a kid that one starts at the museum and so that whole area the art museum area and the Museum district right as as you mentioned behind kind of on the side of the art museum different countries it's every country in the world alphabetical order so it's cool to walk and then you can walk down Measurement Franklin Parkway and get to a lot of other museums including the it goes into the city right in Newark and there's a path that now goes down south to South Street and then along that along the river there don't really want to be outside now as far as being in center city there are a few other museums but those are the most kid-friendly ones and then actually all of these other and you can walk right down it it has all these flags of the world along the road which is very cool and if you like flags which travel also really likes flags as a new part I forget what's called the South Street Park or just I don't know the schuylkill yards park I forgot what it's called but it's a cool green space eight years old that's one thing I remember so I'm glad they still have the heart yes this area is is kind of the best this is the best area to take kids if you can thing I remember doing at the Franklin Institute was walking through the heart it's like a heart but it's not a playground but I kind of mm-hmm is Erica Kelly drive so the famous boathouse row is along that we're all the row houses for the colleges are where they store their boats seven years old they everything is there for the kids to touch and to play with so it specifically built for these sensory exhibits it's really fun we have yet to take him here but that's definitely going to be happening because these museums are inside so that's the these are great things to do all year but especially in the winter when it's cold everybody talks about the San Diego Zoo as being the best to ever we actually haven't been there yet so I know that it is an amazing view but Philadelphia also has great ask for kids and smaller kids I mean if you have a twelve year old they may not enjoy this but if you have toddlers and up to me spots are over by the oldest zoo in America the Philadelphia Zoo so that's actually in a neighborhood called Fairmont rate is that I'll phillies it is another science museum but it has a lot of dinosaurs so if your kids like dinosaurs don't all kids like yeah yeah even wit is now really getting into dinosaurs so what was in its in Westfield and Westfield so we're actually I said we're going west to east but real quick we're going to skip over a little further west over into west Philly it has zoo balloon that you can go up if the weather permits like a hot air balloon that's awesome they have beautiful exhibits it's really well done and I just I love the field I love that yes is called more spend less yes the Smith playground and playhouse so it's this cool playground it's outside and it has actually a full day with kids because you have the Franklin's there and you have a bunch of other stuff as well yes you have the Franklin Institute you have another museum called the Academy of Natural Science which West Bank as a schuylkill whereas the Franklin Institute and the Rocky Steps in the museum on the east bank so they're all all of these on different sides of the river are right near each other and then the last spot that I think is really fun and is absolutely one hundred percent free mm-hmm and you get to walk through and see the different parts of heart and that's the one thing I remember when you know every kid and affiliates takes a trip to Franklin Institute and you're probably where the zoo is and I haven't been to the zoo in a long time but you go to the zoo quite a bit this is you I mean older soon it's the oldest student America so I know that these museum and it is as odd as as it sounds so they have all types of unique things in there Alfio so you can make a whole day of it and go to the zoo you can also go to the please touch museum which is a museum specifically a and I've only been I haven't been here in the last ten year maybe I've ten years ago I think I went this is a medical so has a playhouse which is in this old mansion so if the weather is not nice out you could go in there and they just have kinda like different play rooms and I highly recommend that that's also right in that area and then walk from the Phillies please touch museum I'm not sure but I mean they're all on the river to the museum district as well one of the coolest museums in Philly and one of its definitely the most unique is called the Mutter Museum Institute Academy Natural Sciences this as well with medical stuff it's all right there so that is also in the museum district had there's a few art really humongous metal slide that you can go down in bags you know like I've never been to go I didn't even know it existed that I never been it's very cool and then everything from like Siamese twins you can see what Siamese twins look like they have like enlarge Coghlan's some of it's a little weird some of it's not that weird but it's it's all these front medical oddities things that they have preserved so that you can see what this stuff looks like not for everyone but I consider this one sure I've never even seen a picture so often we would do the phillies and then go to the Smith playground you know to get even more energy out and get your kids really exhausted with toys and things like that I am taking with yeah ground it's very cool this is a brand new when you said put this unless I was like I don't even know where it is or what it is a brand new mall so there used to be a mall right there called the gallery but they're opening a brand new mall in the next year where the gallery used to be dollars to like the Barnes Foundation which used to be the pro the largest private collection of artwork in at least the country maybe the world and then Italian bakery an ice cream stand in a coffee shop so there's even a distillery stand in there now so there's a lot to see and when you want to go out to dinner and a bar day just sit there and zone out maybe enjoy a nice meal so if we head back on the other side of the river on the east side sure yeah is so if you're into art and culture philly really has a lot of fun well done museums and galleries as who had east we've already talked about this but now you're kind of basically in center city you you've come out in the museum district bit and the Reading Terminal Market if you listen to our best places to eat and if you so there'll be a lot of shopping there as forget the name of what this malls going to be called it's all right there the convention center that's another thing to do but you're probably already the guy who owned it passed away and then they opened up museum right down the street from the Philly art museums you could go do that there there's there's a lot of stuff sprinkled in into that museum district if we're talking worldly the movie rocky yeah we're talking about in the US may maybe the declaration of independence edges out sly stallone I haven't listened to your coming to Philly coatless spicy but reading terminal market is an activity in itself because it is the oldest continuously run into our market has run the gamut of everything that we talked about from from Amish ladies having baked goods to a Cajun stand to artisanal cheese Dan and a distillery Stan and a guy coming for that reason possibly the convention centers right there as well so all of that is tied you know right next to each other so that super easy to do if you are to convention reading Terminal One of the more unique things that Philly has to offer and certainly something that if you're into that kind of thing a lot of a lot of this is science we talked about Franklin in the country and they're just even if you're not hungry or you're not super hungry it's fun to go in just wander around because I really do this was filmed what do you think is more famous the movie rocky or the signing of the Declaration of independence because I the extra packing peanuts travel podcast episode three ninety four it's going to be one of your closest places to eat so pop in there check it out another market that you can head to if you're into that kind of thing is the Italian market and this is an open air her market that's very famous if you've seen the movie rocky again that training montage he runs through here and it looks exactly the same as it did when rocky execution shops and restaurants so if you want either Italian or Mexican this is a good place to go yeah it's just interesting definitely worth if you're in the area to walk through and affiliate you want good produce and meats you want to cook a lot of restaurants go there to get their stuff the morning of super fresh you can go and do the same thing but there's also a ton of restaurant host historical square mile in the U nited states and this is the main area that people are coming for tourists are coming for to see if it's the and eat and drink in the reading terminal market but you want expat even if you're not hungry you could just go get something to drink or just wander through and they are opening what's in there to try out as well including one of the most famous Mexican restaurants in Philly it's called South Philly Barbecue it actually won a James Beard award as the others wasn't even like it yeah I I didn't love it but the Italian market is also it used to just be Italian but now there's kind of an influx of pool to sea boat I mean even if you're not into history I think the buildings are very beautiful the whole area in Old City is just a great place to walk through like your first time in Philly because this is where all the historical stuff happened Yes oh you have independence hall the Liberty Bell and it's very kind of hang out and see it especially if you're someone who likes markets then and that's in South Philly between ninth and eleventh as we continue to head east now we are hitting the and you can check that out it's I think it's only open three days a week and they sell out of their famous barbecue Alex Super early in the morning track it's a mission to get it yeah well they're a tiny bit but rockies just known well known all around the world but in these montages running through the market so it's just open air market that if you're in because you have all the brick buildings and cobblestone streets and it's just it's a very lovely atmosphere and then if you're into history it's especially great because you can go and these two places are absolutely free to go in so sometimes they're very very busy it's kind of like when you're in DC and they have all of the free museums there but they're very crowded sculptors than any other city in the world is Paris not a bad city to come in second to Philly not bad at all wander around that four five six block area because the second National Bank is there which meant did you know maybe forty five minutes to an hour to get in or you can go in the morning and they have some tickets for certain time so you could get your ticket and then come back at that time and go in go like I would say I'd rather go up to see the Liberty Bell than maybe go in Independence Hall last time I went to guided Tours Kinda lame it depends in the US constitution tenor which is a paid museum news actually there as well so there's a lot of really neat stuff just I think so but newish it's very cool kind of modern building so that it's a little museum that you walk through like it has all these help with that some is you can the that morning of go and get an entry ticket for a certain time to go in independence also as mentioned it's Free Park Range you get that's the thing this guy was so boring and we could barely hear them you know so you just standing there barely hear new depends it just depends but if you're if you're in that area so you can do that as well liberty bell again sometimes there's a long line it's worth it I would say if we're is exhibit with the information about the Liberty Bell and about the history of Philadelphia and so it's just it might take a little time if there's a lot of people but it's just a moving thing so overall cool little district I mean everything is right there you know there's carpet carpenters hall which is a really old church so you're just going to want to liberty bell is actually in a new ISH building we say newish it's probably if I had to guess I'm guessing over ten years really and so I would say if you're deciding because the his museum of the American Revolution is you have to pay to go into and you have to also pay but if you want to go in and do the guided tour then you can either wait in line but that can get I mean the last time I did it my sister had a friend in town where like let's go do we the Museum of the American Revolution we haven't been in yet but we have heard amazing things that tells the story more of the what they call so there's just a lot of really cool historical things to do nc you could literally spend an entire day just in Old City if you wanted to do some of the museums wander around and there's a new while again we say new but this one is at least only probably two or three years old the Revolution Museum now the American Revolution all of the people who signed the constitution so get to like walk up next to James Madison it'd be like Whoa this was five six I'm calling this guy that was my favorite part you're a walking and reading and then at the end of the building is the Liberty Bell and here's kind of approach if you don't WanNa wait in line because I said I would wait in line but sometimes but this is has like a not a moniker has it designation yes it is the oldest continuously habits to go in the US into the Constitution Centre I been in the Constitution Centre it's okay the coolest thing and there is actually the life size statues of street in the United States so it may not be the oldest street ever built but it's the oldest street that people have lived on continuously and it's but if it's super long line up look at it from the other side you won't get to see the side with a crack because that's the decide that phase in word but you'll be able to see the liberty was real day to day life like during this time for these people so we've been wanting to go for the law we just have never made time to actually go and of course those are the main ones but again the beauty of Old City is just wandering around third third third street is beautiful there's a lot of cute shopping times just you don't need to it's it's in class you know the building from the outside look at it yeah you're not as close as if you went through the line era when people started living yet this little cobblestone street with you know brick houses all along with beautiful window boxes is a little young for it right now but we have heard amazing amazing things right so if I was picking of what paid one to do I would say go to the Museum of the American Revolution it's it's like the common people or they're normal people during the American revolution like the point of that museum is to highlight those stories not stories that everyone hears about right music there are a lot of really fun new hip concert venues in Philadelphia where you can see some amazing artists as including it's just very cute completely free to walk down there's a little also a little museum you can pop into their to actually see what one of the air half there are a few other things that are that you can see that are free including Alfred allee which is a cute little I mean there's a lot of cute little streets and Old City oh anything about the history of the US she was the one who allegedly I guess now you know sewed the first Frat flag they're not shopping so that's called kind of like the the most fashionable street in Philly third street on in Old City so he just wandered up and down not just walked by it and say oh I got to see Betsy Ross's house and then continue on that's kind of you know there's a lot more a lot more things to see in Old City Oh concert venue yeah and then you have the met which just reopened and that's up on up on broad street and that that usually has bigger really cool building in a really neat spot and we've heard amazing things about it from anyone who's been so definitely definitely check it out as you're wondering around we need venue they have an upstairs really small place for emerging artists and downstairs they have not a big place love Old City but moving on from the historical museum parts gives us the new hit of Philadelphia if you like thing two of our favorites are the fillmore which is in northern liberties and it's a huge warehouse that has a distillery in it and some other cools venue out right over the bridge in West philly called World Cafe live which is what we consider more of a listening room so it's it's a real is wandering around that part of the city you just have a lot of different options and everything you see is going to be old and pretty and quaint and that's why People Eddie Club bowling a few bowling lanes and then this big concert and this is big concert venue with a bar and all that stuff and another spot is union trans a bigger place there and so we just yeah world cafe lives a cool spot so if you have if you're coming for certain concert cool because we didn't use to have a lot of great music venues in the city and now with the fillmore opening in the last four years union transfer opening the met just opening it is completely shifted and turned around concerts so that's not not gonna get like huge headliners because they're gonNA play stadiums but anything smaller than a stadium is probably going to be played at the met and there's a concert houses looks like good point I forgot about and that's neat to seem then if you go a few blocks like around the corner is Betsy Ross's house and if you have where the fires in sixers play you have where the eagles play and you ever the phillies play all in one complex and they just built a huge again we say just because is a lot of galleries so second and third or also called the gallery district because there's a lot of art gallery so if that's your thing that's where you're going to want to be as well but if you're in the city you might just want to check it out you know if you're in a music and you're not looking for specific artist just check it out had one of the venues they're they're all really neat neat venues five and fairmount park which is the park that's around that area are great places probably the best places in Philly to do that if you're not trying to get exit like Urban Walking Eagles were in the super bowl so that people wouldn't climb up on our they call him the CRISCO cops is out there with CRISCO greasing lamb pulse the parking lot which is always super fun experience so all the professional sports are down deep South Philly and their own complex but then and then of course a lot of people have are coming for sports as well and you know Philadelphia is known as a dyed in the wool sports town our house essentially thirty miles outside of Philadelphia if you bike it so if you want to get out and hike bike walk get some exercise Kelly National Champs twice in the last three or four years depending on you're listening to this so you could go to a game there although that's a city or what is probably very cute it's very quintessential you know old US you're no but up like a highway right. The higher but threw snowballs at Santa Claus is the old one that ever gets like come on man it's thirty five years ago whatever it was but tons and tons of sports she had the professional sports what's what's neat about the sporting environment down in Philadelphia is the professional sports are all down deep in south Philly so you her which we've seen multiple concerts lines a little bit smaller than the fillmore but again the idea it's like this old warehouse that has a barn it and it's just like a really cool chill wrinkle throughout the city obviously is a bunch of college sports as well so temple has you know a pretty decent basketball program a lot of times outside the city at Villanova was briefly touch on it if you want to get outside and get nature and get exercise yourself Kelly drive which we talked about by the art museum has a bike path that actually runs all the way to but if you're just here for a weekend you can certainly pick out your favorite things from the list and have a fantastic time because phileas a fun city can I mentioned walking yeah and it's a beautiful park so feeling has a lot of activities you will need multiple days if you're going to do all of this stuff on our list I think it's somewhat of a bad reputation for their sports fans I suppose at times I mean they literally two passion Greece the Lamppost when the right yeah so anyway there's a lot a lot of things to do when it comes when it comes to sports for sure I think we should throw in here just a quick mention as well we we like conic in Philadelphia when it comes to college sports is Pens Basketball Stadium and that is the plan as called the plaza and that is probably one of the most five Miss College basketball arenas in the world so this tiny small little place on Penn's campus where they used to play the big five which has like what are you if you want to get out into nature fairmount park as is where you're gonNA go hiking biking whatever it's not a lot of hiking's per se but walking else is actually a great documentary about two that are inlaid into the ground they don't know how they get there there's a ton in Philly and so what they say idioms that restaurants in bar eight huge restaurants and bars inert attend something like that so you can go you can you can hang out you can go to the game of course you can tailgate each thing that's happening in in Philly south I didn't I didn't want them to come philly not to a twin retail guys philly destination diary philly especially in the last five six seven years is it really has reinvented itself as a place for tourists but also people wanting to come what these twin be tiles are someone has laid them in the ground they started doing it in the eighties and nineties and and you can just kind of fun to see I don't know anyway live there because we get to kind of jump on that and enjoy that but it's really cool for people to come to our city as well say oh man I I never really you know we hear it a lot like theme no one knows what it means
The Art of the Art Deal
"Each. Listener supported W NYC studios. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to here's the thing. Today I looked at the art world from two angles from someone in it, and from someone who has observed that world from a distance writer Michael Schneerson's latest book boom gives an exhaustive history of how today's art market came to be our dealer. Richard Feigen spent his entire career in that market. We'll start with Michael. Schneerson. He grew up in new. York. His first writing job was as the sports editor of the Santa Fe reporter in. New Mexico. He made one hundred dollars a week but it led to a job at Time magazine into avenues and finally vanity. Fair. Where he has published over seventy five feature stories, snares writes books to. He's created with Harry Belafonte written a portrait of Andrew Cuomo and unpacked General Motors and the electric. Car. For his latest Book Boom Schneerson interviewed more than two hundred art dealers. Writes a book and boom his seventh. He becomes lost in the world of his subject. One reason that I undertook those books was to immerse myself in the different worlds I. Mean I found Albany Fascinating world and very insulin way sort of exotic one how so This is the Cuomo biography you know it's yes. It's often said that when You're dry from New York to Albany. Let's say you're a representative of some kind by the time you get halfway there. You know you're you're within the this realm that is completely apart from Manhattan, and you know there's a kind of pervasive corruption in In Albany as pervasive that there's. Everyone acknowledges that basically there? No, there's. Virtually no rules or very modest ones on campaign contributions, you can give anything through beyond cynicism. It's beyond cynicism I found that fascinating did I learn more about Cuomo because of Cuomo's a very complicated dark guy who's sort of haunted by his father Harry Belafonte it occurs to me is someone who has always haunted by his father. now, with with Andrew Cuomo who I don't know well, I've met him many times and of course, like anybody who participates on any level especially, a level that can involve check writing you you have. CUOMO lieutenants reaching out to you share. But he's a guy who has always kind of. Fascinated somewhat by that relationship with his father because he's so much more of a retail politician than his dad you know but and their mother was this wonderful. Yes. Dynamic and. To her daughter Matilda Cuomo was always how's your mom? How's your mom's breast cancer thing is she she knew that game. Out, she ended sincerely she was a very warm woman. And Coma would be standing there cuomo senior and it was like he had a hair shirt on he doesn't couldn't wait for everybody get the hell away from everybody can go home. That's very perceptive. I mean he was. Seen as written as being this of Vancouver warm empathetic true Democrat In fact, he was very tough father on on. Andrew You know maybe one thing to be gleaned here is that Almost everybody's got father problem. This dynamic between fathers and sons. Was Belafonte is like in terms of because when I met him, he was a pretty no nonsense. Guy Ted tough guys beget tough sons. CARE was what was Belafonte relationship with his father like? They grew up partly in Jamaica. His father was a sailor in in some sort of marine Military Situation. He when he came home, he was He was really abusive to his son I mean physical. Physical violence. I remember Harry Describing a moment when his father Well he had done something Harry had done something wrong and his father said, we're GONNA take care of this and he made Harry fill the bath tub with absolutely scalding water. And then he told him to come over to the bath tub and put his foot in. And Jesse was about to put his foot in the father sort of pushed him away. And that wasn't the only time. He did something like that at one one time I remember Harry saying that his father took A. Lit Cigarette and put it to his leg. So that was pretty extreme and I think it made Harry a very tough character indeed very tough but at the same time seem tough when I met him. Yeah. He did not suffer fools when I met him. He really really seemed like somebody who? He had a chip on his shoulder. Can I tell you a little story because it's just one of the great stories from that Book Hope it's okay if we venture a little bit away from an art so Harry had served in the military in the army of course, in a black regiment outside of Chicago if you're black or a black regiment there was no integration and he came back you didn't know what to do. So he worked as. A janitor in Harlem. and one day one of his. Customers customers is the people in the building said, Harry, could you help fix my broiler or something? So he fixed the broiler and she said, well, I I want to pay you by giving you these two theater tickets and It's for free. It's something called the you know the American the American Negro theatre was I think the name? So, Harry had never seen play and he went down alone to see this play. And he was absolutely gobsmacked. It involved is their contemporary involved black soldiers coming back from the war trying to readjust. She goes up to the founders afterwards the directors this theory says I. WanNa help wanted anything I can. And he's really okay. Well, if you want to move the props around come on back so he comes back he starts moving the props around. and. He's below that area of the of the stage. Now, whatever you call it where the orchestra pit is or whatever it moving things around and this very surly guy is moving them around two and and Harry flies says. You're not talking much is that because you were just in jail and the guy freaks out he said, why would you think that in Harry's is you know just because that's sort of I got a sense when people are in jail have been he says well. I can't talk about that. And he says, well, what's your name and he says Sydney Potier and this is how Harry Sidney Poitier met and it was the beginning of their like seventy year friendship which continues to this day. We're there white artists, writers, thinkers that he trusted the thought really cared about the movement. You know some that he respected. I off hand I. Don't have that. Action what I have is actually the opposite sort of recollection which is. A A white guy whom he trusted explicitly because the guy was his therapist and actually the guy's last name was Kennedy. I've forgotten his first name wasn't anything to do with the family and as it turned out, the guy was a spy for the FBI. And J. Edgar Hoover was used landed someone. Yeah and so you know I imagine the sense of betrayal you feel. If you're Harry Belafonte and your own therapist has been reporting on you to J. Edgar Hoover a white therapist just to clarify so I don't know I think I think he's trying I felt my opinion of hoover couldn't go down lower. I have to say I think that that he came to trust me and we had a very. Very strong friendship which continues I'm wondering as I hop over to the world of art and your current book boom. Did writing this book lead you to look at art differently than you had before. Yeah. I, think it did I'm quick to say on page one of this book that I am not an art critic neither before nor after. That that's no. I never collected their friends that were galleries or art. I had a few to be honest I. I got into this story because some of the arts stories. Some of the stories I did for Vanity. Fair. Were about Contemporary Art There's one Friedman. Yes. You know the whole nother gallery which? I'm an free freedom which which we have discussed and You know I found those stories fascinating was. The first thing I also was intrigued always. Goes in you know the? The top dog of the whole contemporary art dealer world and I'd wanted to write about him and I would always be told forget it and took me a while to realize that. Of course, I would never get to write about. It goes in because he was a sacred cow because I knew house the head of you know the head of the company was. Had A lot of art and was buying more. I mean you know goes in had sat in an auction room with with the House and they had been a a work up to seventeen million dollars. So of course, I wasn't gonNA be allowed to, ride. Fine time passed I thought you know. This subject to big I. I've been I've been thinking I'm going to write about the whole contemporary art world and how it got this way from the late forties until now, and it's going to involve collectors curator's and dealers and artists also laws townhouses, right? Well. But I But I just was I just taken on too much. So how is I going to reduce it? Well, I finally occurred to be the answer was to winnow it down to the dealers because. You know there's no art without artists, but there's actually no art without dealers either and they had been kind of at the center of this story from the beginning and they were very interesting group of people. So that's how I got going. I when I've met Gauchan, you know there's something about an it's so exciting and so kind of because he has an energy to him like you WanNa believe there's a rakish nece to him. To Me the only person that could play Google Ocean in a movie about him is Daddy John Garfield is As a tough tenacious quality you want to. Go. Began his career by like hijacking a truck. Someone listen kid wanted people like he just is a toughness to him. Sure. Is it kind of kind of the near him of these really kind of tough guy? You. Know. So many things come to mind as you as you speak Alec I mean one thing is just to the point about his charm. It's fascinating if he wants something from you and I hear this again and again, then he's the most charming guy in the world and he loves the there. These billionaires who who are his clients you know he's he's what they call collector centric versus artists central. You know he's realized a long time ago that if you can get Ron Perlman or whoever else Steve Cohen to be at your table and come to your parties, and then by the art now you're going to be. Not long ago, I was in the restaurant sediment so and I overheard this little snippet of conversation I guess it was around the holidays and this heavyset guy older guy lean toward some of the next table and said going down to Saint Bart's for for Christmas and the and the other guy said Oh, you know you're going to Yunessi Liar you're gonna GonNa see Larry, and where are you going to stay and the other guys? Oh We just always stay with Larry we stayed with Larry, and what that meant was that this guy has bought a lot of art from is, and that's why he gets invited. It's not because of his charm which he probably thought he had anyway. So you know goes enes charm is it turns on and off at at as need be he's also described as someone who can be very turn a cold shoulder on you just look right through. depending on if you are necessarily, we're not. When you look at this line from Castelli we'll say that's the line even though there are other people that you write about as well. And the Abbot swirled. This line from Castelli onto garage in these people who are making a market these people who've convinced I. Yes. Would you say that that who was? or the equivalent because if I read the book correctly, what you're saying is that that that these men and some women, they got rich people to to turn this into a currency. Sure. So who do you think it is it's Castilian who else? Well so to go back. To the beginning of of Gagosian I find it just fascinating that he grew up in the way he did in Armenian community in Fresno California. You know his parents I, think they were Americans, but his grandparents on both sides had had were immigrants from Russia. And you know this is very at odds with the template if you will, for contemporary art dealers. Contemporary art dealers tend to be you know to started as rich. Fox. Their parents have art on the walls. Their parents know the dealer who will give the kid a job I mean this is how these things tend to come up. So when you get a guy like goes in who didn't even know what was growing up never a piece of art on on his apartment and the father we talked about the father actually was an accountant dude. Okay. But you know as as Larry later said there was he never heard of anybody who had two cars. He never heard of anyone who went to the country for the weekend I mean he was just. Amazed to hear that when he finally got into the business and so you know to hear that an into to get that wonderful story I. Mean it's just so classic. He gets out of USC. He does know what he's GonNa do he is actually gets a job at the William Morris mail room the classics starting job except that he hates one for people like Ovitz and he just he's either fired or quits whatever he's out of there and he spent a few years just working like for record store grocery store you know doesn't have. Any ambition at all, which is quite bizarre when you think of how ambitious he really is, and then at a certain point, he gets a job that has working as a parking lot manager. So he's in his parking lot. He looks down the street and there's a guy taking framed prints out of the trunk of his car and selling them as it turns out. In Larry's kind of fascinated and so he looks into this and he finds out where these poachers made and he gets his own posters and. You know it's the thing about him. He didn't. He didn't look at the guy selling poachers and think we'll maybe all try to sell something else. He was very pragmatic. If the poster sold, he would do posters and he's later said, you know if the guy had been selling widgets, he'd probably be selling widgets now selling fidget spinner. In name right so. So we started but didn't he got a pop up store, it didn't go get a story. Yes. Exactly. Right. He's he starts doing this on the street just like the. trunk of his car, and then because he is framing these things, it occurs to him maybe he should have a little framing store, and so he does that and then he gets a little more ambitious and he has a little gallery. So he's framing and he's trying to sell the work, but he realizes that he's nowhere out there I mean it's in Westwood L. A. It's it's not about community. There's some wealthy people in the movie business but he knows he has to come to New York and try to ingratiate himself and that leads him. To come in nineteen, seventy nine and to actually meet. Caselli and that's where the whole art world sort of begins turning into an art market. How does he know he caselli one day? He's in his allegory gallery and He's looking through a magazine and there these very cool abstract photographs by name Ralph Gibson who just parenthetically I happen to know. because he would do the photo shots for Avenue magazine. So, I would go to his to row studio and we would choose these really cool shots and they would go on the cover of the magazine. at any rate Ralph. Gets a call from goes IAN. Who says you don't know me but I like your photos and I'd like to have a show of them here in in California and there's a pause on the line in a row says but I'm in New York. And goes is sorry I thought you were in La and well but how about if I take the pictures anyway and and and Gibson says well I. IF YOU WANNA fly here and introduce yourself. Then you know we could talk about that. So it goes in flies out he he arrives on his own and he meets Gibson they're both actually very handsome charming guys i. mean they really are a charismatic ready to take on the world yeah. Yeah, and they liked each other a lot and so Gibson says, Hey, before you go back, you gotta meet my agent, my dealer Lucas Telly, and as soon as Castellina goes in met it was you know an Spark and you wouldn't have expected that because they are so different. He's a talion born kid the mother's maiden name. Yeah. Took the mother's maiden name because he was Jewish and and war was looming He learned five languages. He's a very debonair guy comes to New York eventually starts this gallery. As you said on east seventy seventh street becomes the sort of reigning King of Pop art. and is very generous in his dealings both with artists and the dealers. He's actually the one who pioneers this idea of splitting deals with far-flung dealers because instead of trying to make their mind as much as they can in their own shops, why not share the connections and then everyone will eventually do well, and so this a network was a new concept and totally not what goes Ian would have done. This was very much Castelli and you know it goes in was charismatic, but he was also a very. Aggressive guy why he hadn't showed that before I don't know. But now he was very aggressive and He started selling paintings much as he had the the frame posters in La he just was sort of a guy who would buttonhole you on the street and say, I, I, know you're a dealer you might be interested in this guy's work. And and They said that Ralph Lauren used to sell ties to people table side Lauren would like walk up to people and show them like his collection of tie seemed. Funny. Well, that's that's basically I mean and that's the way it goes in was regarded as a totally bumptious kind of You Know Our v Day whatever and and there was one person who didn't agree with that taken. That was Kostelic would people tell you who nukus tell that he was really very astute about art that he knew good art or was he the same as Gordon was all about markets and this was the well that's a good question. people are always talking about An I did this guy have an eye does he have a good critical I? Can he really recognize which is the painting which is not the good painting and it was it was assumed by everybody that Leo Castelli had a great i. But those who are real cognizant in this world would tell you that it was actually his wife. Ileana Saana Bend who had the great I but you know I talked to a really really smart critic like Robert Store who was the head of the school and he would say it was Ileana all the way and and Castelli was just riding on on her. Well, that's not a very good analogy but I was riding on judgment or her judgment. Robert Store the the the Great Authority I've just quoted here would be just as quick to sort of disparage Gagosian as he was to. Disparage Castelli he would say that no, no good goes into a retail that was his agent retail Guy but you know I don't think that's fair. I I remember said not long ago that I am not an expert I'm not an art critic but I will say that every virtually every artwork ever artists that goes in has represented that I've gone to see. I've just felt excited and drawn to that art and and people who really. Are In this business are actually very respectful of Larry's I. He's really got it and when you walk into his gallery, it's not just the art, but it's the frames back to the frames. But now there is no simple frames in la out of the trunk. It's beautiful frames and it's beautiful floors and it's and it's it's actually you know very attractive people to you know Australia I mean it's all really done perfectly and and of course, he's also the one who. Had I don't know if the I is the right way but the the sense, the prescience to start expanding not only to another gallery in New York and there were a few who had two in New York. But to to the rest of the world so I don't even know what the count is whether it's seventeen galleries or nine. Somewhere between seventeen and nineteen, we'll have to see how it settles but you know this was a guy who made his first move in that regard in about two thousand when he went to London as a cute little story, I could just takes a minute because it it's charming. Larry had no thought of going to London He was settled in New York But he had someone who worked from a lovely woman named Molly Dent Brocklehurst. Here's a name for you and she was as you might expect a very blue person she was from She was English and she worked for Larry in his New York gallery an the the one that the flagship across the Carlyle Hotel. And one of her artists that she handled for him was Damien Hirst and Damien Hirst you. We could talk for hours about Dan Hurst. But the fact is hugely successful and the kind of art that artists that that goes in liked best the kind could churn out a stuff you know like on a production line and so molly was very important to goes in because she was the go-between with Damien Hirst and one day she said to Larry I'm sorry I've got leave you because my father just died there's A. Castle in the family and I have to go tend to the castle and Larry took a beat and he said, well, why don't you just open a a Google office in London and then you can tend to your castle and Damien Hirst is there anyway and you can sell some art and so that's exactly what happened that at that happened to be just the time that the Russian. Were starting to come over and so there was this whole new. Vein of big money and Larry. Larry didn't know that was going to happen it. Just it just happened out of serendipitous a lot of luck involved but there's a lot of luck. Yeah. Now you touched on Mary. Boone. Yes. I have my own of history with. Until I just want to ask you know in the way that people build these careers because because part of that experience for me. I looked at it was kind of inexplicable You know when I when I went through when I went through was you know very specifically to purchase a painting by a painter in a certain year. And, that's that your two, thousand ten or two thousand eleven and I pay a five figure sum for that painting. Yeah, and then I say I want you to go find with this other painting that's older painting that might be worth twice as much as that or more. And then sell me that painting I think you're selling being that painting, but we'll find out is it's a copy you had made that painting. Yes, and yet you charge me the amount of money. This was kind of the undoing of the whole thing for her was when you represent that you charge me one, hundred, nine, hundred, thousand dollars when I piss bought the other one from you two weeks ago for eighty five, thousand dollars. Why would I pay you one hundred, ninety thousand for the one paid you. was fresh and there wasn't a lot of things that made it difficult for her to escape. Responsibility and and when she settled with me made. Public Record. Yeah. Resume check for a million dollars. Yeah. Go Away and and my point is that we all sat there the the the statute of limitations had passed in terms of the criminal and we get ready to civil trial and we're GONNA. We're going to go after a lot of emails of her and they settled the case for you quickly at that point because you realize she didn't wake up one day and decided to do this to me that day. No, we wondered whether there was some bad and I'm wondering for someone who had a career like hers it was so. Important I mean, she represented people she must have someone said to me. You know she'll just turn around and take a bosque out of the been that she hasn't salad to cover her kerr losses. In this litigation, what do you think happened with someone like her why I? Well, here's what occurs to me to say I've interviewed Mary interviewer good long time for the book, and then as the book was getting ready to be published, of course, she was She was sentenced and. Nail for tax evasion, and so I went to interview again and that actually became an article in town country So I spent quite a bit of time with her review would after the sentencing yes. Yes yes. Spent time in our gallery I think she was still sort of trying to shape the narrative there and thought I could do this and and maybe she thought town and country was a pretty sympathetic audience which I suppose it's fair to say it is but I had well first of all I had liked her. She's she's easy to like she She's charming. She's she's Sassy. Lime. Yeah. Feline is a great word for it and and certainly in those early days she showed enormous cleverness in how she built her business. By the way the goes in was the one who discovered David Sally Mary Boone had a chance she'd looked at his work early on, but she rejected it. She wasn't bold enough and that instance to think that that would work for her but Gagosian went to see Sally's work and and he took a chance. He had rented a loft on the fifth floor overlooking for twenty, west Broadway which four twenty Broadway was the big artist, cooperative Leo Castelli the King of the room and so when it goes in rented a loft space on the fifth floor literally looking down at the kingdom, it was kind of almost creepy was like he was looking down to what he was going to. Conquer one day he was rolling in the Canon. Yes he really was, and so he had this show for David Sally. It did very well, he sold quite a number of paintings Mary. Boone came across the street from her new little Gallery F F, four twenty and she ended up taking salad 'cause you know Gagosian at that point it was just a guy from California, he didn't really know he wasn't a dealer he had to admit he was not yet at dealer and that's actually what drove him to be kind of a different. Instead of representing an artist's primary work the words. You find an artist, you discover him, he paints the painting, you take it and you sell it to a collector that's primary. That's the primary market. If the art has been sold once then it doesn't matter how it sold. The second time might be an auction might be a private deal wherever that then it's a secondary market so Larry. was always most interested in the secondary market because there was more money in it. was usually a fifty fifty situation. And because there was just more to bind cell. He would he would go to someone's house for dinner he would see work on the walls he would remember. People very often who were businessmen yeah. Meaning when you're dealing with artists, they're artists. Yeah and when I'm taking the paintings, that somebody who's the owner wants to sell right everybody knew realizes it's commerce right and and and you know I. Mean he did discover basket very early on wasn't the first but the second I would say in fairness to Larry and And he Did enormously well as Basquiat. But even so that again was a primary artist The work was selling for a few thousand dollars and early eighties. Whereas only a few years later in the eighties. Gagosian was representing people like sign new house and and probably getting half of a seventeen million dollar sales so. Secondary, work was really the big money was. And, that's where it goes in. Went I the one other thing I would just say Mary is that I think I think that what she did really shocked the whole art community the market and I don't think that people do that sort of thing a lot now having just said that lag goes did have to give four million and change to the to the irs for sending works that had been bought to a buyer's second residents and state rather than the first one. You know that sort of thing you that dealers can sometimes do I have one last question for you I want to say that you know th the this kid from the upper west side where you grew up in. Manhattan whose tooling around a New Mexico guitar is nobody wants to do he's running for the Santa Fe sports page and then you you enter a world in which you you see a lot of things in your experience, a lot of things and one of them is love one of them you meet your wife Yes in the in the in the towers of Manhattan Show yes, I think that's fair. Well my wife gave Steinberg. was married to a very well known Titan of wall. Street's a Saul, Steinberg. no secret there they had a wonderful marriage for for many years but he did eventually die after a long lingering situation. I knew Gay Fridge through a few different women who are sort of hostesses around town who would have me as a single guy at the table and I remember meeting her a first time and just being dazzled by her intelligence or beauty, and so some months after Saul died I just thought God really loved talking that women. Let's just invite her to lunch and see what happens and. We went to lunch and we had a great time and we went to dinner and one thing led to another. So that was we are celebrating our fifth anniversary on Saturday. Michael Schneerson his latest book is boom. If you want to hear more about the social scene at the height of the nineteen eighties, you can't get a better story teller than Tina Brown who took over Vanity Fair just in time to document that periods excesses we were in the Reagan era right we just Ronald Reagan was on a glide path to reelection i. came in as a London outsider who didn't know really much about America and I was just plunged into this world. Reagan's America, which was this kind of black tie wildly consumers Bob COA cello. Color Bob. On the magazine, it was just I mean I boggles my mind when I when I read the diaries now when I started to compile them, how much we went out. For a link to my full interview with Tina Brown text. Tina two, seven, zero, one zero. WNYC. Studios is supported by Bard College at Simon's rock where students who crave intellectual freedom can begin college after the tenth or Eleventh Grade Bard. College at Simon's rock unleashes students curiosity through a rigorous liberal arts and sciences curriculum and put them on track toward completing a bachelor's degree one or two years early. Now, accepting applications for Fall Twenty Twenty Simon's Dash Rock. Dot Edu slash here where independent minds get their start here's the thing is supported by Goldman Sachs Goldman Sachs experts and thought leaders are sharing their insights about the trends shaping markets industries and the global economy hear the latest information on covert nineteen economic and market implications available on our podcast at gs dot com slash covid nineteen or any of your favorite podcast platforms This is Alec. Baldwin, and you're listening to here's the thing. Richard Feigen. This New York Gallery has sold hundreds of millions of dollars of the greatest works of art from the Renaissance through boss Kiat. His expertise is the Italian Baroque. Most, important dealers to the newly minted millionaires of nine thousand, nine, hundred, eighty s New York who all bought their art and their cultural cachet from Feigin as Sotheby's put it quote Richards secret is to buy what's not in fashion and trust his Keanae for. Quality Unquote. In recent years, he's been stepping back from the day to day leadership of the gallery but his taste is still evident in its choices just this year before the pandemic hit, they put up an exhibit of old master and Nineteenth Century drawings, but you'd feige dealer but says, he's really a collector, a passion, his head, his entire life, the eleven year old Richard Feigen. Earned one hundred dollars. The first thing I bought one hundred dollars. You put a painting for one hundred dollars yes. When you told your parents, you wouldn't take the the hundred dollars of your personal fortune, all of your personal fortune and buy a painting. What did they say? I don't think they much interfere they just they just didn't. So as long as you were happy. Yeah. Those you left them alone in Bob them. He's GonNa. Go buy a painting. Okay. So what go buy some paintings and you bought what painting? I bought a Flemish painting from the sixteenth century in a an antique store near where I lived for one hundred dollars and what what was what was it about many it was a really about. An appreciation, of art. Partially, partially was financial. At Eleven. You understood the equity involved at that age. Yes. Because you're surrounded by your father was successful he lawyer he didn't have any art they'd have any. Arnaud. So how does what's the? Two thousand one a space odyssey moment for you when the black monolith shows up in your bedroom and tells you you need to go out and buy art. I don't know I guess I recognize the values and I felt that. There was a vast difference between price and value. So I decided to take advantage of that, and then I ended up selling it for our. So is that a very success was a score? No whether a big coup for you does this progress or? Was it a one off. Would you keep going even when you're eleven kept going I kept going when did the aesthetic enter the picture? In entered fairly early as I got more involved. And I got to understand more. Than the aesthetic took over in the beginning, I went to work for a company that was in my family and insurance company and a West Coast. Beneficial Standard Yeah did you enjoy that I enjoyed the investment aspect? The art that I wanted to chase was in New York so I arranged to buy art for the Chairman of our company which brought me to New York. And I ended up staying in New York. You sold your seat on the exchange and fifty seven years. Stock Exchange. Yes. One of the Great. Wall Street figures told me that I wouldn't like it and he was right so. I only had that seat for a year and you and you dumped your seat on the stock. Exchange. I dumped. I sold it for. Rockies. It costs me fifty thousand dollars. I. Had about six thousand dollars of initiation vs or sold for fifty six thousand is not pay in fifty seven to start your own art. Yes. Business you're in gallery. Yes. But then you. But when you open up Richard Feigen your first company, you've got to get money to buy or do people lend to the people to they can sign the Consignment. And when did things begin to change for you? When did you start to really take off if you will and sell more paintings and build Your Business? Well when I got to know the collectors and museums I became very much involved with a number of museums and I began to. Either know what he wanted or what they ought to want. I add to convince them. Well of what they ought to want their lacking certain museums themselves are clients of yours. Oh. Yes. A lot of museums, but was there a sale or a transaction that facilitated back from there really began to make your reputation was when you recall, you thought that was a big turning point for my company. I don't think there was a single instance at. But but I've dealt with most of the major museums in the world. I. Mean the Mantra Potent National Gallery, the Louvre and so on. And I. Would spend time? Look at their collection. Decide they need. Such such a painting, and then if I had it, I would offer to them. Hopefully they would agree with me someone that you were an early proponent of was bacon who I am a great admire of some assuming you knew him, you must have known him. I never met. Beijing. Never did I had the first Bacon show I think in. America. But I didn't deal with him directly it I just bought up his work around that because I admired. He. Originally. Said, he was GONNA come to my opening. That was great. And I later got a call? that. He wanted me to fix them up with some young boys. And I said I'm. On my water I'm not up to this idea, I couldn't handle it. So I- dissuaded him from coming. Your one chance to meet Bacon. I suppose I could've met him. You've been willing to pimp for Bacon. You might have had a nice friendship. Yeah I might have. Ended up in jail or so who knows who knows? Yeah but when I can't remember the exact timing but I bought my Francis Bacon Joe. The whole show, a fourteen paintings. Cost Me. An average of. Probably six, seven, hundred dollars a painting. I sold them for. Thousand Twelve hundred. Paintings that are individually worth now. Hundreds of thousands of hundreds of thousands of dollars. Yeah. How would you describe the art market today to compare to when you first arrived here and moved here in the sixties and I think. The art market is much much larger now, much more international. and. The focus. Has. Changed a lot right now the old master market has largely dead unless you have something extraordinary that nobody's ever seen before this very small mark of role masters largely contemporary. And that's where all focus the spotlight has been on the contemporary so. I may see permanent value and things and end up buying it. There isn't that much of a market for it. I think when you see someone. You read about them in the paper and they said this guy bought this painting This Picasso or whatever some you know huge name in the. In that world. And they paid five hundred, million dollars for the painting they paid through the highest amount of paid. Those people always assume that the day will come that they'll sell the painting for more than five hundred million dollars or do they ever sit there and say I don't care about that. I just want that painting because I love that pain is always about for is it always about? Equity in markets and resale of Beverly I. Think It depends a lot on the individual you know. I think of they're spending that kind of money. Usually, they have to be assured. That the intrinsic value is they're going to get it back. Some people. Don't much care. For some people at five, hundred, million dollars may not be. That much the the documentary that you were in. The Art of the steal I, WanNa get something about that in a moment but. Another documentary I saw they showed coons standing in a laboratory like setting with a bunch of his disciples and they're all applying paint to these canvases and under his direction. And they're asking basically, is it a coons if your hand never touches the brush and he was unrepentant he said, Oh, no I'm everything. He's what they're doing is completely of my direction. And there was a bunch of them working simultaneously. He's going from canvas to canvas to Lee has he has a sort of a factory right now what do you think about that? I think a lot of these values are. Confections. And I think the Jeff Koons, very sophisticated and clever guy. And as substantial buyer of old master pictures. which I understand a lot of on loan to the Metropolitan Museum things he bought cones, things he bought. And he's very sophisticated. I do not believe he's an artist of of any consequence. You don't know a lot of people would. Differ from different with me on that. I don't think. So never transacted a coons. Ever board I've never bought or sold coups so. because. You didn't want to. Know, I don't. Get involved in things where I have doubts about the. Intrinsic. Value. Ever. Know really not and I don't consider Jeff Koons hours of consequence. Do you think there's a market for a place? A gallery to open in which you have. you know the curator of the gallery lets people with some experience and on the walls they hang art of people that are undiscovered that they really really believe in an all the art is. For argument's sake under twenty thousand dollars it's it's not super expensive is not six-figure. Purchases. There may be even under ten thousand do a market for that. I think people want to come in and they WANNA look our most people who have money to buy their big game hunters. They want famous big pieces and feathers in their cap and so forth. I think there's very little. Now, bet remains undiscovered the market has expanded. and. There's so many people in it. That and you can't predict which things are going to. Be Successful or not I remember years ago I was in Japan. With a very dear, friend of Mine Jim, Rosenquist Just die last year and. we were in this gallery and in walks the hardest Sama her work at that time was very inexpensive since then they've gotten expensive and you couldn't have predicted that for me it's relatively easy to tell which things have permanent importance that doesn't mean that they're ever going to be picked up by the market now collectible expensive there things today that I'm I'm just flabbergasted at the prices they bring because I don't regard them as being principally very significant whereas five years ago they cost very little now they're pr- prices are enormous at doesn't happen very often, and you can't tell what which things are going to have that kind of appreciation that the documentary that you were in. Art of the Steal Oh. Yeah. One of my favorite documentaries about the acquisition of the Barnes collection folded into the The Philadelphia Museum and all the Sturm and drawing about and there you are an exhibit that gets either Christie's or subsidies in you say some art, my favorite quote, some art is attractive, not very significant, significant, enough, very attractive and the new point to a painting. Now, this picture, this painting is neither significant nor attracting bill self for thirty million dollars obscene amount of money. Yeah. I got a lot of flack. Did you really? Know. The Barnes is a very good example because the barnes. Foundation. I was very much opposed. To moving right and They wanted downtown. For tourists reasons. I always maintain those. It was fine where it was. and. If they wanted to make it accessible to the general public, they could've run shuttle buses back and forth there was only. By fifteen minute trip. I visited a down in Philadelphia they tried to re they've tried to recreate. The handloom, the sound, and so on I think that was absurd. I think it's been successful. I assume are crowds of people that come and see it. But I still think could have been handled were in their in her other building where they were. which because an admirable building? I don't think they had to move it. Is there is there a if you go to one city? And you're going to see the art in that city. You're going to pick one which one would you pick. I would probably pick London you would why Because a national gallery. Has a great collection. The Tate Gallery as always been very active. it's a it's a real. And the new British? Are. Continue to be very important they were. What I was involved with giving exhibitions. I focused on the new generation of British. Ours. Still longer a new generation there now older. Much revered group of Artis. But they've had a very significant. Role, in what's going on today. So, I think that tate. Is Important the National Gallery in London's important. So on. Now in your own home. Is Art something that certain pieces? Survive and they stay there forever their pieces that you have on a wall and they're never gonNA, leave that wall and they live there forever pieces you love what is the art in your home change over time Steph in my home generally is Stephan I own personally and is pretty stable is stays there stuff you love? Oh, I have a Pretty Large Group of very early. Italian pictures from the. From the fourteenth fifteenth centuries. which is a is a period that interest me a lot why? First of all. I like it aesthetically, and secondly it's important in terms of the evolution. Of Our history. Some of the things in that period. Interest me intellectually. So I have a large group of those things and. Every now and then I give something to the Al Art Gallery. But is so you have beyond your home and in your gallery to have in storage. Tons and tons of pieces that you own not tons and tons of things but some. Some things I have but I don't keep it in storage it it usually as. On my wall in my home, his personal or read a gallery. Or in my gallery and I, don't. Generally changed at around that much. There's not that much that interests me enough to buy it. I don't have A. Diverse at inventory. which had Feigen. Last year Feigen sold some of those personal treasures to fund his retirement. This is Alec Baldwin. Here's the thing comes from WNYC studios.