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"Sixty percent of their profitability. They were the fastest growing brands so they said to all of their brands. Go Find Your authentic purpose when you engage people particularly young people when they have a say in how. They're doing their job when they are able as part of their day. The job to be implementing more sustainability. This is what gives you the higher productivity of labour and that then delivers there's higher profitability engaged workforce's have eighteen percent higher productivity sixteen percent higher profitability again. Dan This is just better business so this is what we teach for example at the Bard NBA. Where I teach in which sustainability is woven into every class we teach? It's not a bolt on. It's not an elective. It's the way we teach how to do accounting or strategy. I I think it's going to turn out better business leaders. Well Hunter. Thanks so much for this conversation. Hate to bring it to a close. We could have taken a deep deep dive down any of the avenues that we got into. But we'll save those conversations for another time if you'd like to have the last word any final thoughts thanks to all of you who listen to this podcast. Thanks for caring what you do. The choices you make in your life are what will determine the future of humanity and Dave. I'm deeply grateful to you for all the work that you've always done and I'm grateful to your listeners. That they take the time and that they care care together we can build a finer future. Wow I really missed out on such a stimulating conversation. Hunter really earns the title Heidel for being Newsweek's green business icon. Well I'm sorry you didn't get too involved in that. I do think very highly of hunter I will admit I don't know whether you you could tell from the interview but I'm not one hundred percent in lockstep with her. I think the gist of the book is that we aren't doomed. And the things we need need to do to get our system tuned up and back in sustainable balance with nature are actually profitable and I would expect that kind of message from hunter because she spends almost lost all of her time and energy advising top management of big companies so that keeps her nonprofit going and it also is really doing a good service. I mean we really really do. Need the big companies of the world to be rethinking. Their bottom line rethinking their goals and trying to find the cure for growth addiction trying trying to operate with more sustainable moral code and a little bit less of a profit maximization code so that's a good thing in hunters found a way to speak their language. Yeah and she says that we are already in the process of seeing a one eighty global shift in our energy the an economic infrastructures. And she points that. This isn't because people are interested in saving the polar bears or saving our environment necessarily. But it's really more about being better business and that makes sense because she's speaking to people who live and breathe Steve Economics and business and all things that I do not projections about the complete. Dissolution of nonrenewable by by twenty thirty. Sounds a little bit like Andrew McAfee and what he says about how eventually in developing nations will be demanding more technology and that we're going to willingly provide access to these technologies because we want to see them become richer and in a sense I would like to see an end to mass human suffering but the amount of power needed to make a significant impact is immense and and I think that ultimately it comes down to one thing significant cultural and shifts well. I'm glad you brought that up because we definitely need those. I do not think that we can make the move to sustainable human civilization simply by doing a good business. We're going to have to really rethink things. And we've got a definitley rethink our whole approach to the economy. If we stay addicted to robust economic growth will never be able to get the infrastructure in place to provide renewable energy to power just like you said to power that huge economy and a continually growing economy. Plus we're not going to solve all the other sustainability challenges she's not just climate change shifting to renewables and finer future really is all about reducing carbon emissions and that's certainly important but shifting to renewables doesn't do anything for us in terms of depletion of fertile soils to certification the the fact that we're pumping major rivers and offers dry and driving other species off the planet. Those things will require us to do something else and that is is really get serious about addressing the problem we have with the just the sheer scale of the human enterprise which is both our economy and our population relation right while said we can have all of these new policies and new technologies to solve the problems. We have today but we're bound to repeat history if we don't take responsibility for the way that we're living this means a reexamination of our definition of success. What it means to lead a meaningful life ideas about family size and thinking more about where and how we are investing our money? Yeah yeah good point. Good that she is speaking the language of people who are pulling really big levers and hopefully moving them in the right direction but there's a lot of work to be done and I was curious about what you thought when hunter and I did talk a little bit about population and she seemed to feel like if we can get zero zero population growth in that solves the population side of the equation. Yeah you know I agreed with a lot of what hunter had to say about without giving women the freedom to choose what to do with their bodies. I am and have been for a very long time in advocate for women's reproductive rights. Hi and I really liked that she. Also referenced Dr Malcolm Potts at UC Berkeley who has made some really positive contributions as the former armor chair of the Bixby Center for Population Health and sustainability. They're dedicated to research aimed at achieving slower population growth and and addressing. The unmet need for family planning in some of the world's poorest nations so just knowing Dr Potts's work I agree with everything she had to say about from his five ways to achieve Z.. PG We can agree on that but it's also a downstream solution. We really need to define what it means to be a family today. I sound like a broken record but I don't think that we can achieve zero population. Any demographer will tell you that it's never stable. It's constantly fluctuating. And the reason it fluctuates is because people change every single day and I want to see some bigger changes some bigger cultural shifts when it comes to establishing bonds and what it means to bring life into the world. I don't want to continue to see. This marriage equals two point five children white picket fence living the good life. The idea continue to exist. Because that's just not sustainable all important points but what you've left unsaid. Tell me if you disagree but I'd be shocked. D- Did Bain hang up with that. Is that just ending. Population growth doesn't solve the problem. When you are way overpopulated so here we are? It was seven point seven billion people on the planet. There is no way the entire population of the earth is going to be willing to live simply enough that seven point seven billion. Some people aren't destroying our life supporting ecosystems so our population has got to contract back to a lower level that will match up in some kind of sustainable balance with a decent life that everybody's entitled to love the Best Science that we have on that is we're looking at a target of two billion people are probably under three billion anyway so Z.. PG's zero population growth that basically kinda freezes us even if we're fluctuating a little bit plus or minus if we're hovering around seven point seven billion. We're pretty well sunk. We need to get back down to two or three billion people and then fluctuate a little bit around that. Yeah Yeah and she also didn't make the distinction between national population growth versus global population growth. I mean we're already seeing breath declines in a number of countries around the world. But that's still not enough you and I would say that's a good thing. That's a positive thing that people are having less babies but that's only in a number of countries that it needs to be lower even in the countries where we're making progress. We can't say mission accomplished because when you're a seven point seven billion and your planet is crumbling ambling beneath your feet we need let our population shrank as fast as possible. So we got work to do whether you're living in a country where the fertility facility rate is one and a half or living in a country where the fertility rate is five. You got work to do either way right. I do want to make a note. I know hundred mention the fracking ballot initiative in the November election. And because here we are sharing this interview interview after November of two thousand nineteen people might think she's talking about something that was in November two thousand nineteen election and because we recorded the conversation last a strawberry. She was talking about the November. Two thousand eighteen election. Just for clarification for that. Well I'll just say one last thing about Hunter Levin's very smart lady and she's got a mind like a file cabinet. She's got a good grasp of a lot of facts that all support very well the points that she's trying to make which are good points. Yeah She's really a pleasure to listen to and I hope to have her. You're on the show again. I you want to go ahead and share a video I came across it is tidal Greta. Thunberg and George Monte hot make short it film on the climate crisis. This.