4 Episode results for "Barbados Trinidad"
Episode 27: Actor & Director Adjoa Andoh; Norways Borealis Festival feat Juliana Huxtable; Colin Self; Last Yearz Interesting Negro + more
"This is stance. An winning arts culture and current affairs podcast. I'm at the fell in San Francisco, and I'm Cousteau Genesis in London in this month's episode. We catch up with active director powerhouse Adra under to find out more about her production of Shakespeare's, Richard the second currently showing at the globe theatre in London is the UK's I show to be produced entirely by people of color front and backstage, and we had to Bergen Norway for the experimental music festival Boras and find out more about the cultural heartbe of Norway coming up. So when it came to doing rich the second it was a no brainer. To me. I'm doing the great play with this septa dial speech in as we brags it all women of color. I thank you. So so if you can be a women of color, then who's going to play the lead me woman of color. Bergen has always been a city that looks out to the rest of the world. And also the world coming into Norway and through Birkin. It's a very international city. This aound conjures summons different times different spaces different moments in our lives. And it's about that crane level of disorientation, familiarity and comfort and then much like nothing should be stable. Everything should be a level of precarious. But that's not always be bad. Hi, everyone. Crystal hit. Thank you so much for joining us. It starts our hope you had a lovely weekend. And that you're gonna have lovely month ahead. Thank you for joining us. We've got great program coming up. But before we start on that we have an announcement to make. Yeah. So I've actually got some news. I'm sad to say that next month will be my last dance episode as I've decided to leave and police in new opportunities. So yeah. So this my penultimate episode working with you on this crystal. It's been amazing. And obviously, I'm gonna miss you. I'm so excited about what you're going to be up to make sure you keep us updated. It's been amazing working together. You know, this is being kind of like by driven by passion in so many ways. And it's great to see you know, what we've achieved together and are never forget that. And you know, it's really sad. But I'm just excited for what you're going to do. And you know starts obviously gonna take a different direction. It's going to evolve. But. Changes oversee important, isn't it? Yeah. And I would just say that I'm say mega proud of what we've built together and of enjoyed traveling the world with you doing, you know, finding incredible stories, and I've learned so much, and you know, and I'm really excited to see say house don's is gonna evolve in the new chapter. I'm gonna remain an avid listener. Stories every nine then week wing. But who say another thing I wanted to say as well, which has been great is actually we've always had quite law fun whenever it together. And we've had light such laugh, and I think that's something. I've really taken away it's been so fun to be able to do this and find these voices and find these perspectives in these stories together. So yeah, I just wish you super well and yet just excited for for for what comes next how things change and develop. Thank you. I just couldn't agree more. And I would love actually to share more about what stands in Arbor, lamb Barnish. It has meant to me in next month episode, which will be my last one Bill get back to this episode for now. And let's start with a cultural show outs yet. So I wanted to start off. I went to see childish Gambino play. It was the best gig ever. He did not disappoint. I must say I'm not like, I don't know everything there is to know about his music. I really love his acting and stuff of. You see we did the stance takes when we set and the cultural kind of significance of Atlanta. So I'm really fine of that. Obviously love this is America. And I've been following some of his stuff. But yeah, his performance was so incredible. He has so much energy. But also his stage presence, and he really does make like perfectly crafted pop records, and you really felt that and you know, the audience everyone was too so different that you just pulled together like the whole of London, really. And it really felt like that. He also growing these amazing trousers and he went backstage and the cameras following him around. And then he came out really really close to where me and Rachel porter. Who I went with our producer really close to where we were sitting. And it was just amazing and then lows people rush towards him and he sang a whole like Choon just a couple of rows away from us. But yeah, it was a great experience. There was no a second of boredom. Great voice. And yet just even more of a massive fan. I would have loved it. But what about you? Yes. There's just the trailer and incredible film. I'm not really looking forward to seeing. It's just coming out here. As part of the San Francisco film festival, and I think is gonna be released more widely soon is cool. The last black man in San Francisco, and it's by Joe Tolbert is obviously very topical living here. There is definitely a declining African American population in San Francisco, and this film is about that. And then astrologer that you can feel for the city as it was versus how it is now and loads of people referred to the film as a breakout here at Sundance festival, and yes, kind of loosely around Jentzsch -cation about a guy he was actually the filmmakers friend who knows besotted with this house that he believed his grandfather Bill in the middle cross Francisco neighborhood. And he does everything he can to be there say that's a really charming. It made me think of Barry Jenkins debut feature film, which was also short hair could medicine for melancholy, which explored similar themes, the gentrifying sixty but this time through the lens of two African American lovers. And so yeah, you know, the both of them are really moving and achieve very relatable having lived here for five years. Great. That sounds cruel. Love that also wanted to give a recommendation from my mom, actually, she's been talking about this artist could coffee, and she she's brilliant. She's jamaican. She's very young. And she has this awesome song out could toast. I'm gonna play some of it. I'm not gonna love this. I've been I've been playing with my kids. This is. Time. One. That was toast by coffee and seen is in Jamaica. We might as well stay there. There's another one I've been playing so much by Wiley, Sean, Paul Stephan, Don, featuring Idris Elba, and it's cool boast -i, and it's brilliant the music videos, gray is worth it's a perfect onto like dance to continuously. So here is a bit of that. OD Hof humble, man. Oppo see putting our rhythm. So free. Both house, and it doesn't. Physical. Bro. Nancy just like the judge is boasting. I love that onto parenting. That is a book that I just started reading things brilliant as called the book, you wish parents had read and your children. We clad that you did. And it's by Philip Perry who is therapist, and she's married to Grayson Perry, and she's brilliant. I picked up after reading an interview with her. And I just like that. She's really non-pri non judgy gives you really good advice about being a parent. And I am not one who likes parenting books. But this is really good that she quite entertaining as well. And recommend that nice. What about another song? I've been praying for ever. I just love it. So so so much we're both feud fans little sim. So she released her album called gray area is being getting lows appraising the press rightly so there's one song that she released which I've been playing over and over again into Danzig around to is called selfish. Teaching cleo. So and I think she just really lifts it with this beautiful chorus so funny, but it's just such a beautiful that I love it. Very big in that it does the heritage go and then is selfish by low SIMS featuring clear, so what about you anything else? I just started watching a web series. That's just come out cool damaged goods, and it was created by Vincent motto. He's a black gay artists from Chicago. And it follows a group of four queer artists of color as they struggle with kind of self identity and survival in Chicago, it covers a range of issues through the series from chosen family to dismantling a boys club at work and dealing drugs to support Arctic dreams, and I love it. Because it also tends like racial stereotypes on the head. So you like showing an East Asian man as dominant character in a gay sex scene rather than being submissive, which is so often the way that East Asians are depicted in gay culture. And yet, and so the creative incident actually worked on Brown goes and that was a web series. That was created by Fatima Oscar who had on the coast and some Bailey and say they've exact Jesus, and he was really inspired by that whole recess and so decided to create this. I'm really excited about seeing more of that. Also, we will have Jamila woods on the podcast soon. Which I'm so looking forward to his recommendations he sent us in advance. She loves the album called Astro world by Travis Scott, we're gonna play butterfly effect. Now. We like. Jockey. Let it bang. That was butterfly effect by Travis Scott really excited to have Gina on the podcast soon. Yes, she's mazing to have her on. I really love any music. So yeah, we had one listener's suggestion, which sounds amazing. Could Sicilian go story, and it's an Italian horror drama film based loosely on a true story where twelve year old girl has fallen in love with a classmate and say she follows him into the forest when he's vanished to search for him. And it's quite scary. But very good scary. I didn't know check that out. But yeah, tell me if it's going. Does it islet discs while Mon on James Jamaican writer who we both absolutely love. It was just brilliant the way he was talking about Jamaican culture, and the kind of sound of silence, which is just so rare. And that's so true and talking about when he was growing up and drinking and smoking, but also like in Jamaica with the kind of homophobia and the very long process of him coming out. But also, his Choon were amazing. And he talked about crying about prints more than he cried. When his dad died. He obviously loved prince. But also the great Jamaican song by tennis. Oh ring the alarm he started off the program with Nick, Drake. Wonderful. And then the perfect Nina cherry, he was saying like he wishes that they were best friends, and then just talking about Nevada, you know, when he listened to that. And when he heard the ban with their anti homophobic, sexist lyrics. You just that you kind of found his place. There was just so much about that was just such a joy to hear. So everyone. Has to check that out does unin discs BBC. Mahlon James, I really love that one as well. I think it was brilliant also L sky high on Instagram recommends warrior poet, which is a biography of Audrey Lord written by Alexis devoe. So we look forward to checking that out, and then we also have from Nandor in London song could rapid fire by sandy it came out last year. She says, but feels like such a some asong it super wavy and good dance. Choon? It's a good mix of rap dawn arm, being she loves the vocals, she also likes the pan African element of it. Because the artists from Nigeria South African gonna. But it also sounds like it can be from Jamaica, the Caribbean. So that's check that out. That's here. Bit of that song called rapid fire by Santi Okinawans. Be fine. That's fine. Fine. For. Benign. Thank you so much for that recommendation. Thanks for getting in touch about what you've been into lately, you can send us. Your wrecks at starts podcast. For many including myself sitting in an uncomfortable seat, watching hours of Shakespeare is one of the worst things imaginable. But what about when you're watching Shakespeare in it doesn't feel like you're watching Shakespeare or how you think Shakespeare should be presented. Well, the globe theatre current showing the first ever production. Richard the second play with an entirely women of color cost is open to rave reviews, and we were lucky enough to meet with co director, and Richard the second Adra Ando, a British film television stage actor writer and director known on the UK stage for lead roles at the national theatre the Royal court theatre and the Amiga. She is a familiar face on TV notably in doctor who crystal sat down with to find out more. For God's sake at a sit upon the ground and tells sad stories of the death of kings. How some of been deposed some slain in wall some haunted by the ghosts. They have deposed some poisoned by their wives. Some sleeping killed all murdered for within the hollow crown that round the mortal temples of a king keeps death his court. And they're the antics scuffing his state in grinning at his pump allowing him breath, a little seen to Monica as be feared and kill with looks infusing him with self and vain conceit as if this flash that was about our life where brass impregnable. And humid, thus comes at the last and with a little pinballs through his castle wall. And farewell king. Covey oh heads and mock no flesh and blood with solemn reverence. Throwaway respect tradition form and ceremonies duty for you have but mistook me all this while I live with bread like you feel want taste grief. Need friends? Subjected us. How can you say to me? I am king. I went to see Michelle Terry at the globe, who's your director about different project, which didn't work out. But she said to have a look at Richard the second be on over Brexit and my little ears pricked up rich. The second is the great play about the first king that was deposed in this country. So not beheaded not killed in war. Not died of an illness. But was voted out basically by the hassle comments? And it's a great pro by England has the speech about this sceptre. Dial this England speech that people go misty eyed about the country over. So I went to read the play. I came back and said, yes, very tasty, very interested. And this was for me to direct. So she said, okay who gonna cost his Richard? And I went. May offs. It's fantastic parts. Brilliant play. I'm gonna cosmic. Thank you very much. And I want to do it with women of color, and she said, okay, why am I said because. I want to. Reclaim the flag, Saint George. I have that flag hanging out at my house every World Cup a massive fan. And I was what team lead United literally s- ching together. It's my team in late a kid. My father knew the first black football player to play at Wembley Cup. Final who was Hanson South African men and my dad Newman leads to that's my team for life. Anyway. So I also have the Canadian flag up, obviously. But garner went playing last summer and I had the flag central Japan. My daughter lives in Africa, and she called me up and said of what the flag up and she's. Home. And I said what that's awfully we've lived in diet for centuries for the prosperity of that flag. That's off. Like I'm having that flag. So when it came to Richard the second it was a no brainer. To me. I'm doing the great play with the this septa dial speech in as we brags it all women of color. I thank you. So so if he's going to be a women of color, then who's going to play the lead me woman of color. But it would be madness to director play affects stop that size, which I could do no problem. But you direct seeing your in which I can do as well. You also need to have an outside. I on Lynette and I worked on a play called a Sattori me about Black Panther as to Chicago to Patrick Gordon, other which we did at the gate a couple years ago. We got on brilliantly. We're very blunt which just rough rough from ready girls. So we were communication bequest straightforward. No problem because we know we love each other. So that doesn't matter so Lynette co-directed with me. I did the of the script I cost a lot of mates because the few people that were spared together, I got so everybody is a woman of color, but composer, the musician for fight director, the voice coach the stage management costume designer the lighting designer the costume supervisor everybody even. One of my aunts made one of the costumes so Bolingbrook costumes made by my auntie. So props to anti-death in gospel oak. I was going to say I love the costumes as you said different women's women color, and sometimes people think women of colleges think black women for some reason. So actually there were lots Brown men. They're women he can tell you know, different kind of Heritage's and the love how the outfits represent that. And they're so beautiful. Yep. So so the proposition is women of color why women of color because I wanted women of the empire in the play. There are no aboriginal women from Australia on you see land of which is a failing on my part, actually, but apart from that. I think we've covered all the continents where empire laid it's big greasy hand from China to Iraq to Iran to Israel Palestine to garner to Uganda to Guyana Barbados Trinidad mean, Pakistan. India say already. So we covered Jamaica covered territory because I wanted to say people say that we have no right to claim the flag of Saint George, but somebody came from this island to where our ancestors were and something happened and we've ended up here. And so as you will have seen from the set all the you know, if you went to Buckingham Palace you'd see Lord blundering of who to her on the ball. So our Lord lingering of who to her our grandmothers and our aunt and our mothers. So those photographs that stared down on us, that's our ancestry there. The shoulders on whom we stand there squares fabric with the printed face of whoever emerges. They're hanging on bamboo poles because the whole set is dressed in bamboo, a because bamboo is material common to all those cultures and countries and be because the whole play is lit by candlelight because that's what the Sam Wanamaker playhouse. Does. They don't use electric light. And if you try lighting darker skins with candlelight is hard work. So we wanted. I wanted a natural material that is common to all the cultures. Because that's how we decided we would set the play we set the culture of the play is from the bodies of the women on the stage. So the so everything culturally, so I married an Shanti crown, and I haven't a shanty fly whisk, but I'm wearing an Indian Princess outfit. We've done that. With everybody's costumes from across that cultural reference of the bodies onstage, something that I've been really interested in what was it like going into the room and working together and not being one or one of the only one and actually it's really funny because I felt like some organizations have got the memo little bit to get a few black women in there, especially for look at arts into but. When you think about other some minorities, they're always the only one, and we're lucky where we want to what was that like going in because that must've been amazing actually, I'm just wondering what what that felt like see that's the sort of question of black woman would ask or a woman of color because you're right. Don't get conduct the artists any better than anywhere else. Because it's not you may get a few more brand faces in front of camera or on stage. But that's not happening in anywhere where power decisions are being made. And the globe is no different from any other institution. In regard. However, the globe said yes to us doing this. So it is better than many other institutions, but that's the correct question to ask because as artists we are often, the only one so you're is the only woman in the broom or the you'll the only person of color, or if you're us, the only woman of color, and then you feel the pressure to represent so when we got into that room people wept. People have been in this industry for forty years wept too. Just for once not have to think about your genitalia or your melanin, but just come in and do your job, which is come and be an artist and not year after represent anyone if you fail that doesn't mean every woman of color is a failure right in this room. You come and you be free, and you'd be brave because you can and we will hold you up in a way, though, you've kind of done this. And it's amazing. It's the first time ever happened that shocking. But also, it's great. But then how you going to go back to normal life where this is not what it's like, you go back to normal life feeling heartened because, you know, this is what it can be like you go back to normal life knowing that some women of color in the audience and gone. Yes. I can that's the point. And we can't change the world with one show. But you go back, and you go this is what we can do. We've put a calling card down there. I don't know how many powerful people in the arts. Industry will come and see the show not many as I would like, no doubt. We've asked them whether they show that's up to them. But the reviews that we got they weren't back. Let's give you Pat on the shoulder for being brave plucky Brown, ladies doing your jolly best bitter. Shakespeare, they would because we put a kick-ass production of a Shakespeare play on the stage with excellent verse speaking clarity of narrative, streamlined easily accessible, and that's what we wanted to do. And part of the reason for doing. It's not just about us. Having a lovely time onstage part of the reason is to make very clear invitation to working class people low income people people of color people who don't feel that Shakespeare is for them. Shakespeare is for us. It's for all of us. He is amazing writer, and he says things about the world we live in all the time that can sustain us wherever we aren't doesn't make judgements about people. He just says his tricky situation. Let's see have deal with it. And you sit there and you bring your own heart to that. You bring your own tricky situation. And you see what you can get out of it. And that's all that we wanted to do you mentioned earlier about the lighting how in the global use candles. Is it true that you were inspired by Barry Jenkins? Moonlight for the lighting. Is that is that right less? I'm pick that Barry Jenkins. Moonlight did not inspire me. Thirty five years on the stage has inspired me to want to be lit properly. Because frankly, if you're the only person of color in a cost thing going to both rebel you. They're going to like the majority. So I spent my life bellyaching about lighting being badly lit. Yeah. And lighting designers in this country. They are not very good sit lightings skins of color, and the lighting designer on our show is woman of color, obviously. And it's a conversation. She is hard in the past. And she's being boxed down by lighting designers in the industry said how dare you dare you. But I've done it for thirty. Five years, and it's true. So so film like Barry Jenkins, and I did bang on about the lighting. Barry Jenkins film. It was one of the things that I was most touched by Barry Jenkins. Let our skin beautifully when I say our skin. I mean skin of color and all the different shades of skin color as well beautifully. The golden light of that we often get lit with blue lights that make our skin go gray thing as candlelight has a golden glow to it. So that's great for us. However, you need seventy five million candles on that stage to light a woman with very dark skin. It was not built for skin color. It's painted a very dark colored for particular production that had an all white. Kost. I've seen shows in the darker skinned actors is very hard to see their features. And I it's something I wanna make will have to. Address in some way, baps if they want to. So we spent a lot of time with the lighting just to go. It's not a radio show. There's an actor working their socks off that be quite nice. If everybody in the audience could see what's going on with them. But obviously, many people are scared of Shakespeare, do you think is production will tempt them t- think new audience isn't you're gonna get some new audiences. Well, it's a it's a dilemma, I I really hope we do because that's what we wanted. We worked really particularly to try and involve that audience that may not be members of the Globes mailing list or feel like Shakespeare is something that they want to give them anytime. We're attention to because you know, what was the book when the anti-apartheid prisoners on Robben Island in South Africa. What was the one book that they had smuggled onto Robben Island? It was the complete works. Shakespeare because the great encouragement and the great wisdom in those place. So what I want? So what I'm always keen to do is. Want to say to anybody who feels intimidated by? Shakespeare, you don't have to have had a very posh education or have been studying Shakespeare for a million years to come and get a lot of these plays. And obviously, the more you go the more your air tunes in the more used to it. You are. But it is about tuning your Aaron and seeing clear straightforward production. And I think we're productions poor their hearts into the lines. They speak then the audience is heart resonates that Shakespeare writes on heartbeat. That's what he does. You know, the don't don't. But don't but don't, but don't of Shakespeare is a happy that that's absolutely it was his intention. And I think that tells you something about the intention behind the work if somebody chooses that to be the frame within which they work. So I think that you know, you can make the place emotionally really here. An exciting funny all the stuff that place, you make them laugh make them cry. That's my that's my mantra at for for work. And Shakespeare absolutely does that and. Our job was to pull the as much as possible to ring FANG some of the ticket prices to advertise in non traditional areas in terms of advertising for Shakespeare play and to say, really strongly. That's why that's why we have a poster which has got flag of Saint George with my stupid Bram face on the front of it to just say to to get people's attention and to make go. All right. There's a Brown woman was that back then and maybe make them wanna come and see the definitely gets your tension in new absolutely amazing. And I just wanted to just ask you just one last thing. What's next what you have coming up next that we can audience can be excited about well. I'm doing all my audio work. I'll be doing my my teaching work. I've turned down a lot because I'm just I'm really tired of film coming out on Netflix called actor, which is American psycho thriller drama thing with some Worthington who is in avatar. Directed by guy corporate Anderson who did the machinist Christian couple of years ago that we've just been filming Canada. So that's coming out. I'm doing a little bit in sort of India British film. That's coming it. So they'll be a mixture of Ceuta film and radio for while. And mercy about the, but I'm as I'm an associate at the Royal Shakespeare Company, so I'm sure that future work there. And also, I'm I'm also in the early stages of working project with Lynette at the Bush now that she's the Arctic director of the Bush so are working continues. That was Joa Ando, Richard. The second is on at the Shakespeare's globe in London until the twenty first of this month for this month program. We were in Bergen Norway second largest city and the country's coach will, Hoppy we were there for Borealis festival and experimental music festival showcasing everything from music to performance, art to dance and voice. Crystalline? I are in Bergen. Norway. We've woken up on a Saturday mornings pretty drizzly out here, but it's beautiful. It's stunning way here for for which is an experimental music festival. And we're just beginning. So I I'm I've seen in ages. How's it going is really good? Got here really late last night. So everything was pitch. Black mazing come out and see these snowcapped mountains in the background different colored houses, and we're surrounded by water here. So given that it's the star of the fields. So we've got some ships on our right here. And there's a nice canal river space festival's been running for a couple of days now. Two. Swimming's on the banks with your. I'm about to go in currently. You're so brave beautiful. It's stunning. Yeah. How is it? Fresh this. Nice actually, very impressed say. So the mermaid has just come up to me, and I can see her lips just through this massive cone, and she's just come down after singing. And now she has she's making her way down to the people in the pool. How are you? Getting wermer. When he was going to school experimental vocally sound and intermediaries from city in Mexico City, a very intense scene right now, experimental music and performance. It's always been like that. But right now, it's getting a lot of activity that not necessarily linked to two things. So it's very community. And then it's incredibly interesting. You have amazing. You just jumped into the sea earlier, didn't you? Yes. I did. Yeah. And I'm still during the summer made getting warmer in the warm pool. Why make I love the outdoors just like trying to figure out a way to really have the the adverts. So I wanted to make these big megaphone to buy some potentially hard. And then I was looking into. Mexican or Hispanic mythology about sirens and stuff like that in Minnesota, creating a character for me, and then put sound into it. And then I just wanna bring people into it what's striking about being here. Specifically and Bergen you've come a long way. I was so excited. I think this is the farthest I've ever turtle actually in the world. So the northeast people is really really welcoming. We left behind the pool with its jazz and operatic mermaids and out with Tina root and PT. Meanwhile, co director of Borealis festival and talked about the location and the aspiration at the festival Birkin has always been a city that looks out to the rest of the world. It's an old Hanseatic city. So it's it's a trading city with all the boats goading going out with all the trainings into the into the rest of the world. And also the world coming into Norway and through Bergen. It's a very international city. It's very open to new expressions and new people new ideas, new ideas. And it's it's the city where everyone collaborates to make new ideas and projects come to life. We don't look to Oslo, but we look to the to the rest of. The world. And I think that kind of also. Tell something about why it fits very well to have boy ALI'S here. Everyone kind of join forces to make a great festival. It was a festival that had a real experimental character. And one of the first things we did was just change the name a little bit always been very, Alison. These for Alison have a list of genres, like classical music, noise, music, electric music such cetera die fine holiday of really complicated. An exclusive so one of the things I think is interesting is to think of it not about the younger of experimental music. But to think about the idea of the venturous listener often music festival you look at the list of names and say, I love Kanye west. I wanna go and see that. So we present artists often people haven't heard of think of it like an art gallery coming the autistic experience, then decide what it did for you. Maybe challenge you maybe hated it also find it's a response. Not simple thing. My name is Colin self. I am an artist composer of writer finger. I make performances, and I live in many places in work with many in many forms. Well, I was in my first musical when I was six years old. I think I was just like a little flaming fan buoyant child. And so like my parents were like, oh put you on stage. Last night. I saw you performance siblings. It was amazing one thing that really struck me was your voice, and it fell kind of very operatic. And then I just saw you doing talk, and you said, you kind of pull it off per, and you're not sure if you should not whatever is your voice always been. I've always enjoyed singing. The voice has always been a point of research for me because is also this sort of sonic fingerprint that we all have like everyone, not just interested in my own voice. But interested in voices in general it's much easier for say artificial intelligence to try to create believable visual representation of a person. Whereas like, we really can identify if a if an artificial voices trying to imitate other it's not actually whoever's boys tell me, why is it could siblings. So sibu. Is the sixth and final upper from something called the elation series which began in two thousand eleven it's a series of six operas. And for some reason two thousand eleven version of me was like I'm gonna make six operas as a series in somehow it came through kind of an investigation towards elation, and where we can find that in the present moment in that it very much was about the assembly of non biological family and kind of research as this. Binding agent of kinship. I'm Jenny more. And I'm an artist and musician and all the things in between those two things I studied visual art, which is very unfeeling very trained out of thinking that you're working have any sort of political value or impact because you know, that is kind of ironic and jaded from the very beginning. So anytime I did anything with feeling I mean, it was like had really awkward impossible interactions art school. And I I just put I did it in secret cannot on swimming. Touchy myself. I was like, okay, cool. I'm doing an MA I'll get through it make some objects. And then I did like secret performances in the pub with my friends, and I think it's great. If like festival like this is valuing those practices in secret with your friend as much as the kind of formal institutional things that have taken precedent. Let's say to not just like produce a festival that is showing all-star lineup. That's refreshing for me. Jenny you article and residents hair at Borealis festival. I wanted to know what your practice involves here. I'm treating these sessions like an open studio. So I'm trying to make myself a bit more vulnerable with the things I'm doing basically on my own my studio, I was that for your water submersion workshop which involved three large buckets of water. It was an intimate space. Everyone was bad for you had three Mike's hanging in each bucket. My idea was I wanted to somehow find a way to like baptize ourselves. I had kind of performed a kind of text and sound piece. Let's say which was using hydrophones and the water's one king bubbles singing underwater. People could also not just watch a performance, but kind of physically sends it and then able to just do it as well. So people went underwater. And the whole floor of the gallery became like, a sub kind of sub woofer, and if you stepped on it it was like. It was really big sounds. We when you start missing with volume music when it starts getting really loud people give crazies witness with other bands. And a lot of a lot of stuff. Like, rap music rock music lose like when it gets loud enough, people don't care. No more than start getting they start getting weird to be honest. They used to be mad at me 'cause I'll be showing more speakers than the rock bands. I always bringing out twenty twelve inch speakers just as a joke. Michael Moore for mobile cheque's last Blackie shows on going by my real name. Now, how was your last blackish show? Six. The music mostly ferns Sam can Yona's helped me with some of the textures some of the more ambient sounds, but a lot of instruments piano, bass saxophone, and all that all playing that. You've been learning since grade six is it. Something you want to focus on more. Now that. Playing the saxophone playing sex reward was like been the shift VA or just woke up in our head all these do's, and it was crazy for me just wake up, and I just had all these new ideas and sounds in my head and also I got to go for so I just went for it. Because usually how do things tell me about your name Blackie in caps with spaces. Where did it come from rolling up in the south up in Texas being black just wondering just wanting to just take all the racism and all the sexism bullshit and just ball it up and just throw it back, and they face Blackie as yet black is a kind of derogatory term here, we have the same thing. So you kind of basically owned it. Call you. That makes spell it cast. Yeah. I'm gonna be the biggest one. And now you're now you're just going as you said the way that so come full circle now. Our colleges want to go back to being a person, you know, that's all I ever was. Anyway, was just a person. Blackie confided to us eight found himself playing to himself out of the festival's say how do you event which celebrates diverse and challenging music while still making accessible pizza. Meanwhile, artistic director of Borealis again. Definitely the motion of like two men in the basement, you know, with hours of awkward music that you never know who's going to end is is off putting and that that sometimes we'll experiment to music is. I think we've tried very hard to make the infrastructure of the festival as welcoming possibles we think about how the design of the festival we think about the language we use. We think about how we talk about vents. So that people feel that they feel welcome. If we don't get that of the festival, right? And they don't even come to the door. Also, we pay attention to who we book and representation and who's on stage. So that means gender actually means more autism color. It means looking at social structures culture ordinances Inoyatova key white middle class. So like who isn't in that? If we all listen to stuff that we know ready. Whenever challenge ourselves, then we're not very equipped to face difference. And if you're not to face difference, we end up in the is not very tolerant. I'm Jimmy Johnson small, and I work under Namus lust is interesting. So I so your performance, and I thought the only black woman and then by the daunting, if not quite old stop, how did you fit about that frame, bug and? I was expecting audience would have many people. So I guess this readiness to that an ulcer readiness attention and physical tension. Say what I absolutely loved about your performance was just the sound as well. And the music that was say much base in it and he had tiny Stevens. Who's one of my favorite reggae artists? Had shoddy you get you, basically, you can't go wrong. So it's like. Zone. The music. We want to have is really like sounds that make us feels as where moving and navigating the different parts of the performance the sound of countries like summons different times, different spaces different moments in our lives, and it still about that crane level of this orientation, familiarity and comfort, and then like nothing should be stable everything should be a level of precarious. But that's not always be bad. So you're a dancer choreographer and this project you're working with he'd be calling James and other women. What was that? Like, I mean, I'm like of an obsessive collaborates committee interested in this thing is like the voices, and like getting out of like, my own fucking ice to be honest with you. Interesting because we have a long history as friends. So there are a lot of references that we should in our lives. We didn't open call for black women to join us. And this thing that we just listened flack women do like, let's just try it. And see what happened everyone's working on that thing in the same space. You'll really good looking in with them cheating in. I think like the repetitive nature for dance training. So forces quite detailed relationship to your body. Like the stuff that's going on shift. I'm not so interested in the technical forms as aesthetic of friends like really interested in seeing but dis moving how they feel too in that moment and the urgency that that can be in dancing. So I would say when understand how I can in front of other people do my thing. And what is my thing? And after this. Winning three this painting. How is it? The I dunks with little mediation as possible. Huxtable is a force. She lives and works in New York. She is the founder and DJ of shock value. Which is kind of nightlife collective run by artists bright as deejays, and basically creatives she's an American artist, right typical. And she explores the intersections of race gender quiz technology and identity now we're going to have a Steph when Juliana don't know what to expect. I haven't seen before. But I know that she is a person that everyone's excited about and you can feel it actually hear what we're going to get. Certain texture and things that I look for in music, but it's kind of intuitive. And when it comes together, it doesn't necessarily have a, Sean. But I do think it's a cohesive five. How would you say that you will DJ what for example, like night show valley relates to your art practice? I think in a lot of ways in music is a really fun way to think about rounding identity more than maybe are. Even most people would presume than the other way around. I thought completely insane. When I realized that a lot of the relationships between what jungle as John Reid and German basis, Sean it's like really racially loaded because a lot of contact the only difference between jungle and German German-based German-based has removed like the vocals and black people, and it's like isn't associated with Carribean immigrants than the K and sort of becomes a genre. That can exist outside of you know, what someone might think of the explicit cultural markers, and then German basis into the candidate of pure form of what was originally a very like like, culturally specific expression and playing with all of these structures and underlying Hinton's and the way that history comes out, and these subtle distinctions with end music and with John it's interesting for me. Me to play with that in the sat how tired two are connected to the social or -tarian economic reading of music. I mean, I feel like in a being really embraced by the artistic community and the hailing you as radical and interesting and exciting and needed perspective, generally, more work. I have like the critical of my work. I've gotten better way that people engage. My work improved my participation and artists because I like to make part, and I like to talk about the conversation surrounding our. It'd be really dynamic interesting in the relationship between form and concept, and like how that's it breath materially at this really fascinating. For love books. And the Severn the closing night. Now Borealis was if you go about it, I've found it really interesting like definitely learning not stuff and also just really fun. It's what I found really specialized just the crowd, and the people who are part of it seems to be very welcoming and open also challenging which I think is exciting. I think the setting of Bergen being next to the water and the mountain it's just really at to who kind of painted houses. How the locals are kind of loving the fact that everyone's kind of descending on in nasty. There's been moments in things about like laughing. I'm like, well, it's going on. And that's what you'll kind of initial gut reaction, but the longest spend more than and the more you kind of understand what they're doing. I've been really moved by an exactly that. It's just about opening up your mind. This. Since they this. That was stance. Reporting from Bari Alice festival in bag in Norway to find out more. Visit Baras festival dot Anna. That's it from south to this month. Thank you to planning and production team, Rachel boots and Marilyn rust. If you enjoyed this episode of stones, please subscribe, and right Esera view review. You can find us at strands podcast across all social channels. Thanks for listening.
Black Lives Matter In Belize
"Hey guys. Latino rebels radio. So our friends at the Latino media collective who have done guests shows in the past gave as one of their shows and here it is. took. took. took. Greetings greetings, greetings, meals. Told me had this channel in. Washington. All points beyond this is Oscar Fernandez and you're listening to Latino media collective recorded at the studios of WPF w eighty nine point three FM Washington a distinct Columbia here on this Friday September eleven two, thousand twenty. Also check us out on website, which is Latino media collective DOT COM. That's Latino media collective DOT COM call find us on twitter under the name at LLC. Underscores show that is at LLC underscores show, and of course, live on WPF FM DOT, ORG WPF W FM DOT ORG. Once again, this is Oscar Fernandez today on the show we put the spotlight on Belize and how the black lives matter movement shines a light on how believes is history has been excluded from Central American history, and so we're joined today by Nicole Ramsey who's a Candidate in a Department of African. American and African Diaspora studies at UC Berkeley she has an article that came out last month in medium entitled as Remind Central America to think outside the box she joins us today over the phone. Welcome to show Nicole Ramsey. Thank you for having me. Excited to be here is good to have you with us. I couldn't my introduction brief because actually pulled it from your article regards to Belize Central America. Once again, the Arctic was entitled Belise Remind Central America to think outside the box and when the central arguments you make in your article is that the black lives matter movement and I took this directly from your article shines a light on how belise history has been excluded from Central America. So, with that in mind, let me just go right there to the beginning and ask if you could elaborate and state your argument by what you mean by the black lives matter as pertains to beliefs which in turn pertains to Central America. Yeah for sure. So what envisioning what I was in? When I came up with the article title you know those with everything that's going on. There's been a lot of discussion and in terms of black lives matter and what that means for black population living outside the US I find a lot of conversations especially. I'm really interested in like conversations that happen online. I was really I guess interested in how people were conceptualizing black lives matter as mostly an African American movement which you know there's a particular history and reasoning of why how black lives matter came in to being. particularly in the US. but it was it was just very interesting to see how mostly folks from Latin America. Caribbean. Europe other places. Outside saw that as distance from what was going on in their particular countries. So. In the case, of Central, America you know black lives have always mattered. There's always been struggles of On, the ground with black people fighting again, know the colonial administration and anti-black midst especially what's going on with Garifuna communities across central? America. So that's what I was thinking about. That's what I had in mind when I, came up with this article and it was just kind of talk about it later too because it's kind of like this long history of exclusion in the region and the region and how people conceptualize Central America so I thought in order for us to. Even. Delve into what You, know black lives. Matter Movement Looks Central America certainly have to acknowledge. Black Communities and black histories in the region I. so that's kind of where I was getting at and I'm a fan of history off it's kind of like a title things together. Absolutely we just had a show last week on the Gutty Funez on Duras and in a large way they play a central role. Belize as well. So we'll get to them once again during the course of the conversation. But with that said, there are other groups that make Belize very complex as far as this community is concerned, there's some other groups that need to be recognized. So I wonder if you could also explain the complexity of the Afro Belizian community in believes because not every black person in Belize is necessarily a Gutty Fuda, their other complexities and needs to be addressed here. Correct. Yes for sure. And that's even including myself I'm not guarantee now I'm what you would consider creole. So depending on. The vantage point, but you look at central. America play believes etc. Gua. Even think accent complaints with endurance creole just like black. Identity of black population mixture of blackness feeding back to the enslavement of large populations in the business. So thinking about that identity in believes to historic. Black Group are black creoles. And the Afrin Vision is getting food and I say black correal's because it's. It's common to meet somebody blond-haired blue-eyed of like, who visually looks why to also call themselves. And it's also the language that they also speak in believe. So there's a lot of complexity there and fusion So I really like to say black creoles because also like the history of creoles and believe ties back to kind of that enslavement period. And of course. When I was there last full for feel work you have legal whole bunch of other. black groups that are that have been in believe for quite some time you have like a very Pan Caribbean. migration and group within believe. So you can meet somebody from Jamaica. You can meet somebody from Barbados Trinidad. So that's also present there. and then recently you have a lot of immigrants from. The continent diamond a few people from Nigeria I. Think someone someone from Ghana, and then of course, from Haiti as well. considering migration Haitians to central. So there's like different levels of that. But in terms of like historic, it's black KRILL and offering digits Garifuna and I do like to. Talk about them within the compass of affable believers because there has been like a mixture between two. It's not unusual to meet somebody with a creole mother and A. Father vice versa So it kind of intertwined throughout but the cultures are very distinct and that's important to note they have a different history different time line of you know. Experience within the country which kind of work to conceptualize how they're viewed within beliefs but I think that's very important to also considering language racial formations. So yeah. And to add further complexity to the community in Belize we did a show earlier this year on Latinos identity as it pertains to Belize and guess at the time we. Have a belief in of Chinese descent. So there is an Asian. Community on top of all the other communities that you just mentioned as well. So. Will among other things that you mentioned is that? According you here is that erasure is a violent process of exclusion, and this is something that you mentioned as it pertains to to blackness and central Americanism one if you elaborate on this a little bit further. So. Nick Harnessing Rasiah like violent process of exclusion. Just kinda speaking to like every day. kind of Muendane ways, but the eraser takes place especially in the daily lived experience. I. Think you can eat find. Anybody within the Belizean Diaspora who can always speak to this and always have stories about being excluded both in like. In a rare case like Caribbean circles and then also heavily in central Americans their full. Some. Also thinking about this in terms of like at a national level speaking about Central America as a whole right there the call constituting central Americans by Maritza Kardinia. And she kind of explained what I've always felt for whatever always thought in terms of like questions about you know why is believed always excluded from you know histories and literature about Central America and just speaking about. You know Central America as an identity that's kind of already borne out of as you're. Thinking about like the lack of indigenous representation, the lack of blackness representation kind of like some of the things. That, you have to sacrifice in order to create this kind of homogenous identity. So thinking about that in terms of like the you know the macro level, but also thinking about it in terms of absence in literature for me as a first generation. Who always wanted to see myself represented in? Central. American texts. Growing up I tell the story all the time. But like growing up I was always aware of other Central American countries because. growing up in Los Angeles. There's actually substantial population of blacks and show Americans like my mom. had. Friends that were from Costa Rica from Nicaragua and Guatemala Honduras. Who are black so I never kind of thought about. That particular type of a razor before 'cause I'm just like, Oh, I have this experience. And it wasn't until like. going. Around. Non Black Central Americans sometimes it's just like you of find yourself shock where it's just like well, you know you're Guatemala you don't believe exists but then that also goes for like you know understandings and you know where people are and like understanding of the region and you know as a student and that seeing myself represented in the literature I'll be so happy when I come across books that are like you know books about Fish America And then? Like in the introduction is just like we're only going to focus on the. Right, so excluding believes because of it English speaking background or British colonial background. So it's like little things of a ranger that kind of like repeat itself. And also thinking about the ways that it's also violent. In terms of like these little erasers that happen. Whether. The lived experience in literature. How that's also violent because it's also. In a way kind of creating or speaking to like colonial ways of definition for thinking about okay. What language is comprised and Central American Or Central American identity what music? What food? It really like. Kind of. Peters the line of. kind of like exclusion. But then also. Designating. What is Central American on the I find a lot of times in Central America current like especially blacks who Americans dynamic place. With. So many different overlapping histories with you know the US, the Caribbean South America different places in the region. So I feel like it kind of feeds off in each other like that kind of manifest in the everyday lived experience where Blackston show Americans. Kind of have their. In a way like. Central American stripped from them. You know in the lived experience to the point where people question are you really from here where your folks from things like that? So it kind of leases to like these other ways that we navigate. Society whether in Central America or in the US or wherever the populations migrate twos. So that's kind of what I was thinking about. kind of like the violent process. Of a razor through exclusion because in a way kind of. Allowing. Folks get comfortable with this particular type of exclusion The fact that we can't speak about certain populations or certain countries because they're not really Central American or they speak a particular different language that doesn't adhere to how we think of national identity in this particular country region. So thinking about all the ways that it kind of believe in to the lived experience second. Coach will speaking of lived experience that sort of segues into my next question is it? How have you yourself? If you could give us an example of how your central Americanise has been denied by other central Americans because I can't help I can't help but think of Of, racism being in a backbone of of Disk Losin of believes when it comes to Central American history. So again you know, can you give us a few examples how your Central American necess- been denied has been I dunno passive aggressive or flipping examples were kind of examples. Could you give us? I'm thinking. Right, now about like what particular? So I think. One of the popular ways that I experienced this is through kind of like I. Think I mentioned in article like Oh, you know I didn't know that you thought you were just black I didn't know that you had roots in Central America or something like that. So kind of like this kind way of knowing. That people are falsely of knowing that people kinda predict onto like my body I see that a lot. Mostly a literature, one and a lot of central Americans spaces I think kind of partake in too. These you know the way that I see that. Every happening. So thinking about like in college when there would be you know. Like celebrations of Central American identity, right? Because there's also kind of like the need for Central American students to kind of. Distance themselves from particular ways that people have identified them in the past. to like a very Mexican Chicano. Len's. So me being excited that there's kind of finally the space for Central American identity and then going there, and there is no not just believes but also like representations, Garifuna folks who are very national or Panama. Go definitely I saw the ways that race kind of operated throughout all the time growing up in Los Angeles I never really had my pinch for American or am I believe in my central Americanise or believe in this questioned? within my communities in community I'm thinking about the black community to. because tend to live in only black and brown community. So there was always Kinda like that knowledge whether you learned it at school or not. You had a neighbor that's easy in and they cook you know tamales and rice and beans on Sundays. So it's kind of like. Kind of cultural way of knowing. I. Think it's when you get into spaces where there's not a lot of believe or there's not a lot of black Central America Caribbean folks. That it's kind of like this shock or disbelief of like, Oh, I didn't know that you were from there. You had roots in there. 'cause I also think there's a particular way that if you're from black central. America, how people expect. You to talk or you know to identify or to relate to them on some level. And then being the position that. Belief has in Central America that is very Caribbean country as well. I just kind of thought refuge in my Caribbean nece more so. Areas where I didn't necessarily feel like my Central American background was valued I always had the Caribbean background as well. So it was kind of like operating within those two lynn go to kind of like ways of being in the world. So my Americanised, and then my Caribbean, which for me is like one in the same in a way. But definitely like Central Americans, spaces where it became more prevalent where I thought the most. I think especially online it wasn't until like I was on twitter one day and I came across the fence and Central American beauty page on A. Bio the I begin to see people kind of embracing seven. Countries in Central America. So I thought that was like. Pretty unique or cool way of looking at kind of Of Inclusion of believes in and I think that when you know. I guess feel more comfortable and Central American spaces. For I guess being visible So that's kind of like a time line and then also Los Angeles it's kind of like a very. I know there's a lot of. Critiques about La of being one particular type of lengthy that here But I also feel like it. There are spaces in Los Angeles that are very. Very Black Central American Central American and. Going outside of those spaces where I saw. or where experience the most kind of central. American denial of me though that kind of like where other kind of the moment where I see it. You sort of answered my next question, which is. Fair to argue that believes lives between two Communities Central American And Caribbean it may sound in May sound like a like a very easy question for a believed to answer. But I, only ask you I only ask it for the simple reason. Is that since I myself I am not. I don't think it's fair for me to to make that assumption let alone that conclusion. So. Is, that a fair argument to say? Like this I would say, yes and no. Yes, because I think they are both. Leaders both I think Central American and Caribbean and there's I feel like there's no. From what I've experienced in the people are talked to. There's no kind of inbetween, Kinda like your both you don't really have to choose within the beliefs context, but then I also think. That belise as well as other place other sides. Awesome. Acre is Kinda like redefining geography. Of, what is a Central America and what is Caribbean? So I think? There's like There's like a line, but then it's also very mean to a muted line, right like being about belonging in the region as well like how do people most belong? Central America or the Caribbean. Also thinking about the similarities between believing creoles and folks on the the Caribbean coast and got our bluff the similarities between how they both see themselves as part and as part of other as part of Central America and as a part of other places. beginning like places like China and Providencia that are very Caribbean consisting of like islands, and then also very tied to South America Colombia Nicaragua Panama. I think there's like. believes lies between communities, but then it's also. Kind of. A part of that redefinition of what is Central American, what Caribbean and I think a lot of the time and I kind of. think believe is very important. Geography and the region as well. Because it kind of allows us to be. kind of like these lines. Or to like really. You know taking the consideration, these lines I have kind of been drawn out I, thinking of the Caribbean. Beyond island miss the Orange Island thinking maybe sometimes a Central America as extending beyond its most. In its dealings with other Caribbean, nations, other South American, nation's the US thinking about migration as well. About how? To migrate maybe places like New York or Miami. Tapping, more to the Caribbean news of their environment whereas maybe a believer in going to Texas or maybe Louisiana. Some parts of California may tap into a particularly Central American identity depending on who's around I. Think it Kinda works both ways. So yes, being part of the communities were also. Like reshaping the the boundaries of. Curbing interprovincial American. We're speaking with Nicole Ramsey. She's a PhD candidate in the Department of African American and African diaspora studies at UC Berkeley. Her medium article is entitled Believes Remind Central America to think outside the box. This is Oscar Fernandes and you're listening to Latino media collective. W Eighty nine point three FM we're GONNA take a short break right here back with more than a minute stay tune. and. mind. Your. Bond. Much. Abroad. Under. The Land On Bond. On An. Outdoor. Do. Not. Help. mind. Bars. Money. Bomb. And and. and. He's That was Lard Ruben and you're listening to Latino media collective young WPF, W eighty nine point three FM Washington reminding everyone check us out on all website, which is Latino media collective dot com. You also follow us on twitter under the name at Elm C. Underscores show, and of course, live under ups. wfan DOT ORG OF UPS WWL FM DOT ORG. Once. Again, this is Oscar Fernandes and we're talking about black lives matter in. Belize with Nicole Ramsey who's a? Candidate in a Department of African, American and African Diaspora studies at UC Berkeley, her medium article is entitled Believes Remind Central America to think outside the box. So Nicole, you know most of the time we discuss Central America here on this program a lot of it stems regarding the dark legacy of various right wing dictatorships for all of Central America in one form or another, and it makes me wonder you know the more I learn about believes is history itself which you know obviously, it doesn't have the same violent bloody history as its neighbors in Central America. But it doesn't make me wonder if you believe the region's bloody history of right wing dictatorships play a role in Central America's distant relationship with believe because the reason I ask you that is because. The. Last time we discuss believes here on this program. Our guests noted that you know sometimes unconsciously the whenever we say the word care being would we're thinking in the back of our minds may actually be black culture. Now, that's not to say, that's not to say that Central Americans are all inherently racist. But when you think about you know the history of right wing dictatorships history has proven that they been especially races in one form or another we have the indigenous populations in their own in their own respective countries. But with that said, you know disease dark history sort of play a role in Central America's distant relationship with beliefs. Yeah. That's A. Great question because that's often something that I thought about. For a long time especially thinking about. Legions in Los Angeles Central American identity in Los Angeles I think. American identity in Los Angeles has always within the context of central Americans who fled violent repression back. In their countries but thinking about Guatemala I think like in Los Angeles. El. Salvador definitely hunters Nicaragua So definitely I do think it definitely plays a role in Central American relationships to believe especially abroad because then I think you're also thinking about the different reasons why People Migrate Believe in. Reasons or you know long history of migration to the US is very different than other countries in central. America. And so I think that that plays out in that history of migration and. You could definitely see it and within that framework I think in terms of like the role that it plays in the region. I think you're definitely right because I think this particular type of histories and I believe Costa Rica maybe a up there too that doesn't have that particular history as well. So it'll be interesting to kind of see how that also work within that Lens also. Costa Rica having different ethnic compositions and believes we'll be very interesting. but I think they're also both unique in that sense. And it kind of. So. I think it Kinda plays out in terms of like goes back to the relationship of how each country season. So. In relationship to each other. So thinking about like. Modalities of power. Relationship to other Central American countries the US, their relationship to the nation plays out in that way. I'm thinking about beliefs too in the sense of. where it is today believes is becoming very when if you think about the Central American diaspora. Believe has a large population of folks from El Salvador. Who? Pain in the eighties and who have been living there generations right creating this kind of. Double Diaspora call it within instant within believed. So the relationship connection of Belise to. these other. Countries and dictatorships have been Central America. Is, through that Lens of Migrations whether they're migrating to believe or when they migrate to places Third Base, California or the US these kinds of relationships. Become more. Visible I think that in terms of literature as well. So. A. Lot going on between the sixties and the eighties and even before of places in Central America. So that kind of takes up a lot of literature because there's so much history there and so many things happening. So I've definitely seen it within that framework and I. Think. Believes not having that particular 'cause three does kind of play into how people see believe within the region maybe of I dunno maybe like a, you know country that doesn't have as many political instability. You know things like that. I'm not sure. It does to an extent, play a relationship like play a role in that relationship to believe how people. kind of relate to believe in identity or the country itself. I. Do think there is. In terms of believes there is more. Social Cultural Political alliance with the larger Caribbean in itself. believes some dependence and nineteen eighty-one which is the last country in Central America to do so I think. maybe the second to last within the larger Caribbean. So I think there's also like a lot of things going on itself. You know being a crown colony of the British. Calling system. kind of put it within a within a different historical round as well and how it relates to other countries So things you know. And I think we could talk about this. Later we talk about different historical events that I think are important to the believe the nation. So thinking about. You know black uprising throughout the larger English and Spanish speaking Caribbean and how believe was also part of that but I think there's like I guess like it depends on the way that you look at it too. In terms of like. Uprising than rebellions believe there's a part of that larger Caribbean history but in terms of speaking of the isthmus and Central America, there's definitely. A. Difference in how. in what they've experienced in their respective nation will let's go to that issue right now because it's not that often that we get to. GO IN DEAF ON, beliefs. Now under the Lens of the black, lives matter movement you know this gives us the opportunities because obviously the central focus of black lives matter is police violence and erasure of history, but also brings to light moments in history that deserve greater attention. So for in the US alone I think more people this year are aware of June eighteenth and. The massacre at a race riots that took place in Tulsa. Oklahoma I think a lot more people are aware that now than they've ever been before. In this country history so Under the context of Belize now did you brought it up? Could you give us examples of moments in Belizean history that perhaps deserves far more attention? You know not just in Central America but far more attention than than it's ever gone before. Yeah, definitely, I feel like there are definitely moments. In Belize history that I feel. Speaks to kind of like a greater blacks I asked for us history of the black guy aspects especially within the Caribbean. when I was an anti heated at Ucla I. Knew I wanted to write something about. believe in identity or something about believes that are wasn't particularly shore. What to do with that? This is just kind of like. A little story that I have. And Going back to like. You know believe in representations and literature there wasn't much for me to work with. You know if if Lou mentioned believes, it's kind of like the same kind of facts like you know English. Speaking we have these you know seven ethnic groups here. It was just kind of very quick facts about believes and I never got. into it. it wasn't until I took an independent study with Professor Robert Hill who published the Marcus Garvey papers. Tragedy. The markets Gary papers that I saw representation of believes within the histories. So I just remember being kind of blown away because I was like I never knew anything about Garcia's them pan-africanism in believes. my parents didn't know anything about it. You know they kind of like had you know like very slight histories of you know Other forms of black politics there. But nothing like that I remember delving into it and it wasn't a tie read this book about Caribbean radicalism. In the region I think it's called like holding aloft the banner of Ethiopia. Genes that I saw well believes as part of this. Rebellion you know black uprising that was happening. In World War One that hits the talk about the nineteen nineteen right. And I think they just celebrated their one hundred and one anniversary. On in Belize at the Nineteen nineteen riots that kind of focused on. The Trans National and domestic. Politicisation. Of Black men, and women, believe. So you know black servicemen we see this in American history to black servicemen returning for more one come back to a country facing still kind of discrimination poverty, all of these things that kind. Fought for broad. So they kinda rebelled against the colonial administration and black women were also involved in this too because while the men were way of black women were also politicized in that. It just kind of rebelling as lack subjects under British rule. So I thought that was something that was really cool. And really important. One of the things that I thought was really cool about it was that one of the main servicemen who fought. Samuel Haynes wrote a poem called land of the Gods that kind of that later turned into land of the free, which is the national anthem of believes and I had no kind of. History about the connections between the national anthem and the nineteen nineteen uprising. So it was just kind of like a really cool moment and. Just kind of thing. We think also like how come I don't read about this in Central American texts, but it's like a Caribbean. So it was just kind of one of those things that I begin to question as well. And, the nineteen nineteen riots also coincides like the rise of Barbie. And like a shift in black consciousness. Among ACURA believes and believes. But about markets Karzi in the nineteen twenties. Back to Africa Movement pan-africanism Black. PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO SELF-DETERMINATION I think we often like to think of lease as kind of like this multicultural. Especially, like in tourist attractions is multicultural. Kind Kinda space where the Muyin Garrison A. Mini nine. He's been nearly stationed all get along together and coincide you know in harmony in a way. But I think you know looking at these particular moments in black history kind of really. Is the way that blackness fifteen not just in Central America cell phone in the country as a whole and like what particular point of history get taken as important to the nation's. and then the last one is you bad so the United Black. Association. For Development which came, which was a cultural political party that team. about in the late sixties. That was part of kind of like the black power movement in the US the black power radical tradition. And also thinking about that politicisation at that time so. Believe in politics believes in culture believes in political history. Kind of speaks to what's going on in different parts of the Caribbean and parts in the US Latin America. Those those particular moment are very important to how I envisioned history and believe in history in the region. Right speaking about Garvey ISM to. Across Central America being about it costs Black Central America I like the the USDA Garvey, branching Costa Rica still there, and they're still people that are heavily a part of it So just speaking about the importance of a belise. and. Black Central America to understandings of pan-africanism and they after history. In. General History of Latin America and you know in the Caribbean. So those are the things that I think are great examples of hot speaks to what's going on in the world right and seeking to kind of global anti blackness. Because I. Think There's always a tendency from what I've seen to like. Well, especially believes where some people pride believe on not having plantation slavery which. Leads to. How people conceptualize beliefs as racial place of racial harmony because of. Their dealings with slavery I think there is a way of you know kind of like his game that people play. Well, you know unders black people live this particular way. So El Salvador, we're not like this or we don't treat our black people like this. So there's kind of like this weird game that gets play. So I think like paying more attention to like these histories and what they mean and propping them up. Until like the way that we talk about our national. These national historical moments is important. I know that I've been doing excellent work lately. and kind of making emancipation Public Holiday Inn believe domestication of plays across the Caribbean Public Holiday and believes really holding the air the events of nineteen nineteen uprising a black T. fall within the colony. Just kind of cool to see those things happening now. We'll you certainly hit the nail on the head that you know this is something that should be taught in Central American Studies and I'm not just on about. Latin American academia here in the US. But in Central America. People in what the mullahs in Salvador just name a few examples should learn more about Marcus Garvey under the context you mentioned because it is Central American, history and it should be recognized a lot more often than it should. So you know what we have about four minutes left. So I want to ask you two things before we wrap up here. One one we mentioned the Funez and their story has a lot of urgency considering the challenges they face in neighboring on us. So one, I want to ask you if you could explain how a gut no community developed in Belize because it's not necessarily seem as how developed in Honduras what the mullahs. And also finally to in the show, you know under the Lens of black lives matter you may have answered this already but what do you hope people learn from your article in medium as well? The gardeners cloture history and believes Berry. Dot Com but also beautiful. but very different like you said from neighboring countries. So, when I think of the Gershman. Getting goofy museum believes I think of person exile right from Saint Vincent to Belize and then they're all you know ultimately settling across, you know throughout the coast of Central America. I feel like. The history and the development of Garner comedian believes has not always been very welcoming like you know history shows us that belief in Garifuna were designated to certain districts in believe in couldn't even go into belief city right because of anti blackness and then also fears about you know what happened in Haiti with the revolution and now you have these black you know. Group speak their own language. So there's kind always like that anti-black missed and that fear of what could happen. so you know thinking about. As. They used to call them I think I believe. Forty hours right because they needed a permit, they had a permit for forty hours. They could've say longer than forty eight hours in Belize City. So they had to be out beginning about how like the? You know the discrimination against Garifuna has been there's a long history in Belize. And also like colonial establishment often pudding pitting. GARIFUNA and creoles against each other which you can see a lot of that today in terms of you know how they. You know interact with each other and then also like cultural kind of differences and things like that. And then in nineteen forty, one guaranteeing a settlement day on with fashion believes that kind of was well, it's a reenactment of when the Garifuna came on their boats and settled in the southern districts of believes in this huge celebration that takes place in believes and in the diaspora until like places like New York and La, they celebrate it. So there's kind of like Ben this. Then shifts of you know believe Garifuna is being discriminated against being included in the nation So thinking of a Garifuna Settlement Day, we can actually pay homage to The GARIFUNA community Also like UNESCO. Designated Garifuna language dance music. as something to be preserved and something to be celebrated for that also tells you like what Garifuna culture And Catherine of people have. Given to the nation right also, they're really celebrated in Belize to their culture, their ability to preserve their language And their rebellious Hippie But then also there's kind of like these remnants. Of Anti blackness and discrimination that's kind of over from like. Colonization. Colonial Administration So it's it's a very like complex. kind of history. And I think it's also different to from my understanding from when I was in Belize. You Know Garifuna, Settlement Day the music is very much celebrated in believing that they Astra even to the point where confess sometimes become synonymous with believe in music. But there's always that recognition that Garifuna culture which doesn't happen in a lot of different in a lot of countries that America's. Mainly Hindu. So. Yeah. That's a little bit more about like the development Garifuna Canadian believe. They also have like long histories of serving an education healthcare system. So there's like, yeah, there's like a history kind of. Like. A whole history of how Gary. Communities became kind of part of this this national identity as well. That's very fascinating. It looks like we're out of time. So we've been speaking with Nicole Ramsey. She's a PhD candidate in the Department of African American and African diaspora studies at UC Berkeley. Issue on learn more about her article, you could check it out on medium. It's entitled believes remind Central America to think outside the box we are going to create a link to article on our twitter account, but in the meantime Nicole Ramsey. Thank you very much for being on the show with us. Thank you. And with that said that as in for today's show, you could check out this episode in our previous episodes on Latino media collective dot com the goals of follow us on twitter and a name at L. MC underscores show, and of course, live on WPF W FM DOT ORG. So bad my co producer Abby Roberts. This is Oscar Fernandez saying, thank you very much everyone for listening to this show. That's it for today's show on. November Jau.
Liberated Threads: Black Women, Style, and the Politics of Global Soul with Dr. Tanisha C. Ford
"Check all your workouts with apple, watch step one, choose a workout. To work out. The workout at makes it easy to track your every move with workouts like running yoga dance and almost anything else you into now there's an apple watch for everyone starting at one, hundred, nine, thousand, nine dollars iphone six s later required. What's it like to drive the? Volvo xc ninety plug in hybrid. The thrill of four hundred horsepower t eight twin engine. The joy of impromptu transient. And Serenity. Of Electric Power, in pure ego mode. Visit DMV evil retailer today to experience the xc ninety recharge plug in hybrid for yourself. Just. The history of fashion as production of iheartradio. Seven billion people in the world. We all have one thing in common everyday. We all get dressed I'll come to trust the history of fashion a podcast where we explore the WHO what, when of why we wear we are fashion historians and your host. Abra. Callahan and Cassidy's Zachary. Yes and today we are pleased to welcome the award-winning writer cultural critic and historian Dr Tennessee Ford to the show and. Casts casts a huge fan of hers for a Long Time and Dr. Ford is professor of history at the City University of New York Graduate Center where she teaches courses that center around the social and cultural histories of black women, and these are also the stories in histories that she centers in her own work, which consists of numerous published articles and three books. Two, thousand fifteen, the publication of her First Book Liberated Threads Black Women Style on the politics of Global Soul, and then in twenty nineteen. Year witnessed the publication of not one but two of her books, her memoir dressed in dreams of black girls love letter to the power of fashion and also quality breath ry black is beautiful and the latter was an exhibition catalogue. Co authored with deb Willis all three of which she is here to discuss with us and not one but two episodes I'm super excited. As you know, April Tunisia is a historian that I've had my wishlist of guests since probably the first season of dressed and today we're really going to focus. On liberated threads which has been on my bookshelf for years, I mean talk about a feet of scholarship and research and also just a wonderful. She's such a wonderful storyteller and I know our listeners are really going to enjoy this discussion today because it focuses on dressing as an empowering and Political Act, and this is something we've of course discussed on the show before but not through this particular Lens because Tunisia really explores the intersections of black women fashion and activism, not just in America. But in Europe and apartheid South Africa. She's really writing black women industry and profound and powerful ways, which is why we are so pleased to continue to the show to new welcomed dress. It is such a pleasure and an honor to have you here with us today. I'm so excited for our talk. Yes, me too. Thanks for having me cassidy. So your work centers around the power and importance of fashion within the black community historically, and today fashion can be something that's very political. As you demonstrate in two thousand, fifteen book liberated threads, Black Women, style, and the global politics of soul but it can also be very personal as you've written in your recently released memoir dressed in dreams, a black girls letter to the power of fashion, and while on the surface, these texts might feel like two different types of books you know once historical its archive research, and then the others is wonderful memoir that's based on your personal experience. I mean they are actually quite intimately intertwined and many wonderful. Wonderful ways I'm hoping you can tell us a little bit about the inspiration about each of these books. Yes I'm so glad that you can see how how connected the two books are and that they really grow out of a similar passion to understand. The every day politics of black life in America and I thought what better way to do that than to look at. Why we get dressed and how we get dressed in what we wear is nothing more. You know every day been putting on clothes you now. Although maybe under warranty. Getting dressed has looked a little bit different but I wanted to study those politics and as a graduate student I started to think about dress and I was trained as a historian. So that work was definitely deeply archival. Love being able to look through old magazines and newspapers and interview people who are coming of age in the sixties seventies and hearing them talk about what they wore and why they were at and where they purchased it. And I found that once I started doing talks on book research was finished I have defended education and I published liberated rather the book. I. Started To Talk People Love to tell me about their own stories getting dressed. And as like wow. Okay. I was looking at this more in terms of the big key politics or like the collective politics in how getting dressed was a part of a movement or change social change in empowerment. But these everyday stories of getting dressed people love to tell me when I'm on the road with this look I think that that means something that's a little bit more personal or small P. Politics that I can explore, and that's where dressed in dreams just became this fun book that think about that every day little p. politics, the personal choices that we make around her clothes that aren't necessarily part of some large collective movement but that are so deeply personal political to us. And what I didn't realize when I Pitched that book idea was that by editor would want it to be about me in my career. So I, win from researcher to subject of my Olmo right and that was a bizarre experience at first because. Of course as a historian were trained, we're supposed to be objected right. We're supposed to have some kind of distance from our subjects. I don't believe that's possible and I don't think that in stories are objective but that does. Sort of great myths of history. So you know but here I was now Larry my own story on top of the history that I have been studying by that point for a decade about dressed in the dress body and social politics in the cultural politics of communities in the United States yet they're both passion projects but they just pull on different parts of me brain as a thinker and my experiences at the woman. Yeah. Congratulations to because I. Think it was just announced maybe a couple months ago that dressed in dreams is being adapted for television series, which is just incredible Anki yet. Mutually announced. and. It was one of those moments where what I saw the announcement. Gone Out I had to rush and tell friends you know an enclosed colleagues and mentors like Oh just to let you know this this remaining thing happen because while they were you know working through all the details of everything I. didn't say anything anyone. Beyond my parents. So I didn't like Russia trying to tell people the good news they hear me I. It's it's such an incredible accomplishment. I can't wait to check it out, and so we're going to start with liberated threads today and you really right in the introduction. You really talk about how your goal was to bridge the gap between fashioned studies and Civil Rights Histories because the story you tell in this book is not a story that's really been told and it centers around women and specifically women activists and you're essentially writing many. Of these women back into history who have been erased or forgotten or just not really studied in this really important way. So liberated threads really centers around women as I said, it's this transnational history of the black freedom struggle of the sixties and seventies a period of incredible social upheaval regarding black men and women civil rights, not just in America, but across the African diaspora but unlike historical narratives on the topic, your work focuses specifically on. What you call embodied activism. In other words, you focus on illuminating the ways in which women activists used quote unquote soul style to make powerful political statements about their identities and and now that you've said small p. p., both of those politics are very much in this book, but they're making these political statements in regards to race gender sexuality. So can you start by defining soul style for us for those of us who might not know? What that is and who are some of its earliest and most influential originators well, you actually have addressed many important things in that one question and to get at the heart of the first question about soul style. This is a language I grew up hearing. You know a whether it be from TV shows like soul train soul glow, which was the hair activator in coming to America James Brown's got soul and I'm super bag you know. So I heard this language all the time as a kid. And it seemed to me that. People were speaking to. Black men and women who are Afros and bell bottoms, and maybe they wear black leather jackets and berets. There was a kind of spirit of a pride in unapologetic blackness in the nineteen seventies and I was curious about this day you know my mom used to call herself a soul Sista and she and her friends from college who referred to each other in those ways. So when I started doing research for this book liberated threads, I been star to trace every time in the archive I saw people use this language of soul I started reading literature from that time period in theory by people like Amiri. Baraka. in who are theorizing about this word soul. So I started to piece things together and I realize that this was a language that had different meanings for people hit within the African American community but also in the global black community that they were using this to a stand in were black consciousness to mean that. was at the forefront of their thinking in the way they saw themselves. Away to make a connection to their African roots so to say, I am proud to be African. By blood you know if not by national origin I'm proud of that fact I don't want to embrace a European or euro centric idea of self I want to embrace my roots in my heritage. In also became a to talk about black cool like what what is it about black culture? That is always cool. And so a way to to signify cool in think people like James, Brown. Personified that, but it was women like Nina Simone. No Jeddah in near Makeba who horse are performing in this jazz and folk music space in early nineteen sixties wearing your hair natural wearing African african-inspired garments who really for me became visual representations of this idea of soul style. So I wanted to chart how Bay Embrace that style but it although how they influenced a whole generation of black women to see themselves through this idea of soul style in I started to see that Seoul meant something in particular in the US. Context. But in in the British context and in the South African context, oftentimes they had a slightly different meaning and so I wanted to interrogate very closely what those meanings were and how. They differed in order to paint a picture of the African diaspora that was yes. One of unity on one hand but also show the disconnects and the political disagreements or the ways that different national contexts shaped what blackness look like or what people thought of when they when they heard the word black or how they embraced it to show the African diaspora except jets are not a monolith. This is a diverse political and cultural community if you will. But that. They still were trying to think collectively to gain greater freedoms for all. Right, and this is very much. Tell us incredible transnational story like you're in all these different places. I mean really in America. Then like you said, you go to Lunden, you're in South Africa and some more than clothing hair is really central tear discussion of the politics of style of the sixties and seventies, and it's like I just said, it's not just in America but also the freedom struggle those taking place in places like a part tied. South Africa for a black woman during these periods to wear her natural hair was very much this political act or at the very least it was interpreted as a transgressive act of self expression. Why was this perceived as such a radical statement and can you give us a few examples of the women who used their hair as an expression of their embodied activism? Air. It is always a sensitive topic in that community and it's because hair from very early on in various points of contact between European colonizers and people of African descent hair became a marker of racial difference. So this idea that the darker races of had kinky earlier. Hair texture that the follicles that grew out of their scalp looked different and so therefore, that meant that they were somehow different less human. Human. At. All right. So there is this way that you know pseudoscience develops to create these differences between people of different rates. Of course, we know this all socially constructed. So hair became a part of that social construction and it also became away to punish enslaved black women for minor acts of transgression against this very regimented exploitative system of slavery. So if you. Step outside of some boundary on a plantation. For example, you have your hair shaved off and course for many women hair was a marker of immunity. No matter what the texture was having no longer here with the sign of immunity. So to have that here, shave off against your will it was a humiliating for punishment so you on the one hand have hair as. This marker of so called racial difference, and then you also have hair as a way to punish, and so this the hair became you know this Sensitive material with you will put although a place that was the possibility for all sorts of forms of expression self expression. Be It hair braiding here beating in ancient African cultures believed if they wore gold in their hair and other forms of dorm it cowry shells. So what we see that in the period I'm studying is black women saying, Hey, we wanNA. Go back to those pre colonial days when we had a sense of pride around our here when we had total self control over our hair and how it was styled and how we adorned and we want to go back and reclaim many of bills, free colonial hairstyles both real end hairstyle that we imagined. African women would have been wearing and so you see this beautiful resurgence. In natural hair, but it's slow going at first because of course, by the time we get you the early and Mid Twentieth Century Standard for black women is wearing their hair straightened. Is wearing their hair longer so you had to. Push path all those years of social conditioning around wearing one's hair straighten in order to wear your hair natural and in the early days some of the women whose stories I read in magazines like Negro? Digest mention how members of their own communities with look at them in say, Oh why would you wanna do that to your hair? You look like a boy you know beauticians when even style their hair for them. So they had to either go to male barbers or some black women like black rose was a member of the granddaddy models learned how to do their own bothering and so they could cut other black women's natural hair. In. So those early adapters again, some of them were fashioned model like the Grand Asa models were doing this for grassroots modeling. They were members of the student nonviolent coordinating committee like Joyce Ladner. They were singers again, lightning among Miriam Makeba data. who were wearing their hair in the short cropped styles Nina Simone actually went natural before she publicly wore her hair natural. She was still wearing straight haired wigs for years before she let people see that she had been wearing her hair natural underneath. But again, like this was a bold choice and so it isn't really until the early nineteen seventies that afros become commonplace and they become these symbol of souls file in the these symbol of black Friday and black power. But in those early years I was really fascinated by the black women who are bold enough to buck some of those long held beauty traditions in order to pave a new way or a new form of self expression one in which they embraced the hair as it grew out of their head. What's it like to drive the Volvo xc ninety plug in. Hybrid. The thrill of four hundred, horsepower t eight twin-engine. The joy of impromptu road travis. And the serenity. Of Electric Power pure ECO mode. Visit a DMV evil retailer today to experience the EXC- recharged plug in hybrid for yourself. It's no secret that in Washington DC corruption is everywhere. You could say it's gone viral and I should know my mom's the speaker of the House. My name is James Parker. My friends are all on the same boat daughters of the DC elite. When you're this close to power, there's nowhere to hide and when my friends and I got a little too visible. Our parents broke us up but now I need them back because I'm in deep. See. I'm a bit of a hacker. In here no one knows me as James Parker the only know me as storm alloy. And Storm Alloy will she went poking around somewhere she shouldn't have. I'm James I'm Payton I'm Celia I'm Natalie and where the daughters of DC join me and my friends for daughters of DC a new twelve parts scripted podcast political thriller from the team that brought you lethal lit. Einhorn's epic productions and iheartradio listened dod for free on iheartradio Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Something that you? You talk about a lot in the book to that's really fascinating again, not just in America. But in South Africa is the respectability politics and this idea of these white norman of beauty standards rates. So that modern beatty culture essentially becomes associated with white beauty standards. So straight hair light skin and you don't just see that in America but also in in South Africa where there's like forced uniformity during apartheid. So there's incredible historical legacy of these beauty standards that these women in the sixties and seventies are like pushing against. So it's this incredibly powerful statement that's with all this history and our listeners are just GonNa have to read your book to learn more about it. There's so much third impact. It's it's so interesting and important. Yeah. Especially in the South African context as you mentioned this African context because you under apartheid and me I, think it in the United States, we don't really understand enough about that history and what it meant to live under apartheid. If a one of the things that happened was that they were even young schoolgirls black South Africans. foursome the shave off their hair because they're braves were markers of bear ethnic identities. So if you were who you know, you might wear your hair and certain braided patterns. If you were a family of nobility or royalty, you might wear certain styles and so what they wanted to do was embrace all of those you know cultural ethnic markers of identity, and so they would make them shave their hair and create very uniform look. Very. Closely cropped style that Mary Makeba were hair in in the nineteen fifties when she emerged on the global music scene that's example of the kind of style the. Cut, these young girls hair into, and I think that it was really important for me to incorporate that history as well because when we see it from the US context, a certain piece of it we understand when we think about US slavery but to understand how it opened in the South African context. At a whole other layer to that rich history around here, and then why it becomes. So monumental in the South African context that women are making a choice to wear their hair natural was not that they hadn't ever seen natural hairstyles or that everyone was wearing near hair straightened their entire lives but it's also that what does it mean to embrace this hair now as a very deliberate political decision so I definitely wanted to talk about that but I also wanted to. Explore this idea of black women wearing their hair straightened style as a way to conform to European beauty. I think that that becomes a a very easy or oversimplify way to explain it because really it's not just that black women are wanting to look white, which is how that gets over simplified. oftentimes when we say you know adhering to European standards, right? It sounds like, oh, black women wanted to look white is white was the white need standards where the normative prevailing beauty standards, and while some of that is true if you look at the global beauty markets in those time periods, definitely as an aesthetic of beauty de was being. Sold to women of all races but also we're talking about hundreds of years of hairstyling, and so what that means is that particularly because black people are living oftentimes in segregated communities, it means it white women aren't there everyday touch points were beauty in style. Anyway, it means that black people are creating their own cultural and beauty ecosystems, their own ideas around here, grooming and beauty that yes understand what's happening in the rest of the world as it relates to beauty. But when you're looking to style out or when you're looking to wear the latest hairstyle, you're not necessarily looking to you know some white woman on in a moving picture. You are looking to the woman who lives down the block. You know you're you're trying to you know one of her, you're trying to outdo her emulate. and. So I like to be very clear about the fact that black women eaten when they were wearing their hair straightened or wearing them in Marcel curled Bob's in all these other things that they were doing. So as a way to create their own beauty ecosystem, you know and women like Madame Cj Walker help us to understand that Mary Jo. Malone also help us understand like how they're setting some of these trends. It's really important to to know that when we think of soul style, of course, we think about natural hair in the styles we mostly think about our afro in corn rows and dreadlocks. But early black nationalist women in I mean women like Marcus Garvey's wives Amy Ashwin Garvey and Amy Jacques Garvey Day to were wearing your hair natural. You know what they were just they were wearing it usually up in some kind of you know. Bun or a fridge twist or something like that. But those women to were these early adapters to this notion of wearing one natural It's it's those women whom the Grand Asa models are inspired by of course, because they are operating within a black nationalist political framework. So some of these early women who were part of Garvey's you and I a were to wearing their here natural. We just don't have a ton of photographs of those women. To. See the points of reference or the kinds of that they were wearing but I think it's important to note that what natural hairstyle will like were afro-caribbean Women in African American women definitely changed over time we can kind of map this long continuum from radical Black Women in the early twentieth century to the women I study in the late entry. Yeah in. So hair is obviously a big part of of your story and both of your books actually it's really central. To like you said, this identity politics politics with the big P. something I've really love about your book is how you just mentioned the fashion ecosystems that these communities are creating. You really talk about the importance of the beauty salon as kind of this unrecognized important space in the civil rights movement because he's women are really gathering here. This is a place where these women in these communities are gathering. Could you talk a little bit more about the Beauty Salon culture? Beauty Salon Culture is essential to black lie. And I'm really thankful to the scholarship of people like Noliwe rooks and Tiffany Gill who right berry eloquently and powerfully about. The Salon as a political space tiffany Gills, beauty shop politics in particular goals in great detail about this and what it helped me to see was that not only was it this important homeless social space where black women would meet to talk about all sorts of women's issues you know from where I? Latest Dress shoes that everybody wants to have to you know my husband is cheating on me right? You thought the range of experiences. But it also became clear to me after meeting the Gill Book that these women were entrepreneurs who could use their beauty shop spaces to advance in support whatever political causes they saw fish. So as a Black Freedom Movement is coalescing in ratcheting up to another level in the nineteen fifties allow these beauty salon owners would have small rallies in their salons or they would run voter registration drives from their salons in the U. K. context. an influx of Afro, Caribbean women migrating from places like Barbados Trinidad, Jamaica, to London, and other cities across the U K. They need a place as they get their hair done you know, and so one of the ways that black women a become their own business owners by setting up beauty salon and those beauty salons than become community hubs for new migrants. So oftentimes it the shops were sub segregated by national identity. So here's salon the Jamaican women went to here's a thaw. All the Trinidadian when women went to. So you could read establish a reconnect with community in the beauty salon. So I wanted to really honor that long tradition of the beauty salon being this very important space for black women but I also wanted to talk about the politics of that salon in terms of how these became gathering places in hubs for Black Women, and then also how they became opportunities or economic advancement. For Black Women in so it was fun to. Write in dressed in dreams about the beauty salon and my own experiences being a black girl getting my hair Preston curled in Mama cokie Salon. That was the name of mine my hairstylist when I was a kid in as early as five or six like a right of passage or at least it was becton for black girls get I. President Girl you know I can remember feeling like such a big girl going into the salon and you know sitting in the chair being so small Mama cokie had to put a pillow on the chair so. I could sit on the pillow and she would pump pump pump the hydraulic tear up so that I could see myself in the mirror and then go through what for me was very pain process of getting my hair, Chris our email, and of course, there's view with piping hot pressing comb in the oil. Oh. Gosh things we know about here now that we didn't know then you should never put oil on your hair and then put a hot comb on it. It's like what happens when you put a piece of Bacon into a hot skillet Fries right. But we would you know you put the the pressing comb through your hair. You'd hear all this crackle and pop in. You know how they burn you ear you'd Joe. Terrify like harrowing experience but it was also this brighter patterns. It makes you feel so proud when she saw the finished result. So I wanted to rink all those things across the books so that when you be the to in conversation with one another, you can see just how important the beauty salon was for. Black, women. And again across both of your books, as you said, there's so many interweaving themes between both of these books and especially when you read liberated threads I, mean we're GonNa talk about your mom in a minute but just seeing all of these interconnecting threads is really really special about those two publications that I wanted to talk a little bit more about. This. Embodied activism because part of it was racially driven and politically driven, but it also has a lot to do with class gender and sexuality politics as well. How did women also transgressed these societal coats through their clothing? We'll. Definitely embodied activism I want to explain a little bit about how got there and It's because as you mentioned earlier, liberated threads. Could've bridges, fashion theory and fashion studies scholarship with civil rights black. Freedom Movement scholarship because what I realized there was this gap. In between right and so in that gap, we lost so many stories because of the wave we have framed history. So in fashion theory oftentimes about the garments is the history of textile histories of the designers but this, not necessarily about the bodies in the garments. In the civil rights movement history, we were thinking about bodies, but we were thinking about bodies as blockade. Here are the bodies who are crossing the color line to sit at lunch counter he or other people who are trying to integrate US terminals. Here are the people who are being dragged and beaten as they're trying to cross the Edmund pettus bridge. So we were thinking about bodies in and that way and how you know black the black flesh enduring all sorts of physical punishment trying to break down and push against this regime of Jim Crow Segregation. So I thought like well, what happens though when we think about? Why these particular people went out to participate in these Berry arrowing public protests why they war-within-a-war why they go dressed in that way? What happens if we take all this that we know about garden and then put the garments on bodies input garments on bodies, a folks who were actively participating in this movement, and so I then started to play around with language and embodied activism was something that seemed to make sense or capture what I was trying to explain about you know what we see when we put these two different bodies scholarship together. So to me what that meant was looking at the ways that Black Women Non Binary FIMS a masculine of center black women like how were they making certain choices about the dress body so I looked at everything from the women of the student nonviolent coordinating, committee who were wearing dim overall and they could align themselves politically with a southern sharecroppers whom they're helping to organize alongside in the deep south. So adapting these clothes or adopting these clothes become a way. For them to support the southern struggle in also becomes a very public symbol of back that they're rejecting the responsibility politics. There are supposed to be inherent to them as women who are part of the black middle class or who are aspiring to be in the black middle class because a lot of these activists were college students at places like Spelman Howard University Jackson State to college. Until they were really pushing back against those class expectations in the coarser doing that with the overall with the hair. I also looked at women like Olive Morris who you know from teenager with active in the British, a Black Panther. Movement is so she was part of the Black Panther Youth League and she was known for wearing her hair closely cropped in wearing will many would consider men's clothing tailored suits best. And such. So she was like the women of snake who are shooting the wear their hair closely cropped overalls. She too was kind of warning some of the politics expectations of gender norms. I wanted to help to use queer theory to think about this kind of gender disruption but I also wanted to look at things like in the south. African. Context why is it that black South African women are being punished even by members within their own communities for wearing miniskirts. What was it about the miniskirts and what it can you kate about a certain kind of sexual politics bad. Very staunch Christians and Muslims reject it they shunned. Even. In the Tanzanian context, these women could be beaten jailed for wearing mini skirts. So I, wanted to look at how we're just wearing start became a form of protest. So then to create his blow black landscape if you will or fastest gay to four, like all these different choices women were making and how those choices. became part and parcel to movement politics and strategies, and I think one of the best or one of the most fascinating examples of this town was in the South African case. Where like miniskirts hot hands were also one of these garments that were seen as you know not. At all respectable and so you have these college age women who are participating in the anti-apartheid protests and they would come wearing their hot pants. And they had their natural hair styles and then they would wear stilettos. And they wear this dilemma is, of course, as part of this sexual alive uniform if you will that they were wearing, but they were also wearing them as weapons. So if the police came to brutalize them, they could take office the Leto in use it as a weapon to defend themselves now that right there is embody activism for sure. Yeah and clothing armor is a theme that comes up in both of your books, which is really interesting because I think he raped that that SNC members. They really found that an quote you that maintaining the respectable body was difficult and that being respectively clad did not protect them and that's something that they're kind of pushing back against two. It's like I can be respectively clad and I can still be targeted by the police because of the color of my skin. Hey there it's mango hosa part time genius founder of Mental Floss, and like many of you I'm one of the twenty one million people that have picked up gardening in the past six months. That's why I'm hosting the brand new podcast humans growing stopped brought to you by Iheartmedia and your friends at. Miracle Grow. Join me on a green adventure as we talk with experts, friends and surprise guests and here gardening means to them listen to humans growing stuff on iheartradio. APP. Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast. Ham Charlie Sanders, and I'm ball and I am Brian Huskey. I am also bold. We're the host of the podcast bald talk from the big money players network and iheartradio. Before this I was a writer producer for NPR and created the show weird. Sit Than I appear on Bob's Burgers and veep but the show's not just about being bald. So for you heroes out there, there's a lot to glean from our show. It's about insecurity vanity. But you are veep has on every season. Oh. You mean Congressman Dude right and then at the end academic that's actually a guest. You are the press dude Mike mclintock none, and that's Matt Walsh is also a gas away when I remember you your producer, the predominant that that's all she ought. To have him on the PODCAST. This show is not about having people who are bald from veep coincidence you gotta to say that right? So we'd be very limiting, but is MacAulay culkin I don't know. I'm not on succession that's the other one I think. AIRSU- talented. This listen to talk on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. So you've mentioned the Grand Asa modeling troupe a couple of different times and so a soul style spread across the African Diaspora. Thanks to the international influence of all these women performers. It was also spread. Thanks to this Harlem based Modeling Troupe. He's images were circulated internationally during the sixties and seventies and whose slogan black is beautiful became this international proclamation that celebrated into the present day. So can you please introduce us to the grand a modeling troupe and its founder Kwami Brathwaite on whom he recently co authored a wonderful book Kwami Brathwaite black is beautiful bill. Greg ask model Oh, they're so fabulous. I'm trying to remember the first time I encountered them in the archive. I was a graduate student and I was doing research at the Shamburg told one of the archivists that you know I'm trying to steady soul style natural hair and she said, oh Ho you have to see. These photographs lead arcus name is Mary. Year would in she said, you have to see these photographs and I looked at him and I was blown away because these were images of black women who were modeling in the early nineteen sixties wearing natural hair wearing these berry elaborate African inspire garments, and I just had to learn more about them. So I started keeping a record of their names I started keeping a mental image of their phases in my head as I went along during the research and what I was able to piece together as I found. Random. Articles in everything from Hamad speaks to liberator magazine of course but those are black nationalist publications. Was that these men women were members of this troupe of young artists and Jazz Art Society and studios that was co founded by a man named Kwami brockway in his brother along a breath and they formed the route originally as a Jazz Society because they love jazz music like most young black kids and most young people period in in the United States and around the world in one thousand. Nine hundred fifties, but they also were connected to a garbage organization called the African nationalist pioneer movements and every year. The AM PM would have this natural standard of beauty beauty pageant in the women would compete with natural hair. But when they saw the woman who won that year's pageant, maybe a week later, her hair was no longer natural. You had to compete with your hair natural beauty pageants. So. They wondered why and they realized that wow. This whole thing around natural hair in shame around metro hair even among black women who are part of black nationalist circles. Why is that? So they realized that in order to answer some of those questions and address some of those issues they had to center black women they. Edmund. They couldn't figure it out right and it wasn't really their their place to do so. So they formed his troops, the granddaddy models, they recruit a bunch of local women around Harlem many of whom did not have any modeling experience, some of whom did. some of them were already activist like a black rose of who was a hairstylist and activist in Harlem but others of them were you know like Kwami, the woman who went onto become calming breath as white to Colo. she was not an activist nor was she a model and they gave them some modeling training and then they started performing in these fashion and variety entertainment shows in Harlem and they recruited people like, Abbey Lincoln and. Max Roads to very acclaimed jazz artists to emcee in perform at this shows they formed partnerships with a Nina Simone who came to one of the events and they chronicle. These naturally shows both in in the black press of the day particularly the radical black press but then once the thing became so popular Abbey Lincoln helped them take the show on the road so they started touring down the eastern seaboard they traveled to the Midwest and Places like Detroit and Chicago. So these models were becoming the face of a grass roots. Effort to show to black communities thusly to the world that black is beautiful that became one of the rallying cries in as Kwami brathwaite became a professional photographer parlaying the kind of grassroots Taffy work he was doing into a legitimate photography career he started photographing the models in. Partnering With Record Labels Like Blue Note and some of his friends who you know he had met jazz artists who for performing at some of the ages early jazz shows and he was designing their album covers. So now you have these Bassa models on the covered of Bruno alums He's getting books to autograph the models for Flamingo Magazine, which was a magazine that was published in the UK and distributed across the British Caribbean in West. Africa. So has I'm doing now how these women their faces in my brain as I'm doing archival research I'm in London a dissertation in London in I see my first encounter whip Lamego magazine, and I'm like, wait a minute. Donald you know start like. Keeping Track of all the places that I saw these women and when I found him, you know on a blue, no album covers. I didn't even make that blue note piece that I just piece together for. The listeners until I was at this conference again as a graduate student in Ireland and someone asked me, he was the one who noticed those are all blue note covers does it matter that those are all blue note cover and I was like, wow, as good question I realized it did matter because Kwami brockway had relationships with those blue note artists and so they were very instrumental in having. The artistic director of Blue Note records work with KWAMI ANY LUMBAGO design they're out in covers. So yeah, the granddaddy models are they were everywhere in that in the early nineteen, Sixty S, and like I said you recent book is so incredible at we're GONNA put links, dress listeners to all these books of course and are recommended shown out. So you can get your hands on these all of. These texts. So other important sites for the development of soul style throughout the sixties and seventies were American colleges, and in many ways, this is where your personal story begins. Because one of your greatest fashion influences is your mother Amy Glover. She was a college student during this period at Indiana University and she is clothing. You're right as both an expression of her identity and also as you know. Interest in dreams as an armor. So can you talk about your mother's relationship to merchants of black power fashion? You've so many incredible images of her in there too, which is so fantastic can you talk about her relationship to black power fashion on college campuses, how it emerged in the sixties and seventies, and then her adoption of one of its most distinctive innovations? The Afro Oh my mom. She is such a rebel at heart I. Mean I think that's her spirit is a spirit spirit of rebellion, and so when she was growing up in Cleveland Ohio and. Black power the black power movement started to spread across Cleveland. It didn't much for her to be intrigued. She loved the bold empower political statement that she saw members of the Black Panthers Cleveland Making that she saw black nationalist. Street preachers. Making? She, loved it all. She was also a child of the sixties in that when she heard James Brown say it loud on black and I'm proud. She took that very literally and she been stopped wearing her hair Preston curled started wearing it in an Afro and in one thousand, nine, hundred, sixty, eight when she was just barely in high school and she also had a great appreciation for Angela Davis in her political sacrifice in her brilliant as a as a political thinker in someone who was trying to abolish prisons in do all sorts of work. To eradicate capitalism in to my mom does all these kind of forces came together in she was someone who knew how to. So a lot of the things that she saw some of her biggest influences wearing in print media in on television she didn't go make for herself. So she started what I said stitching her own sartorial reality. You know like taking someone like Miriam Makeba and then trying to recreate garments that she saw Miriam Makeba wearing using whatever fabric Joann fabrics store had on offer as she learned how to make her own that she keys and. Maxi dresses that she would use the reprints May, and then she makes the matching head wrap. This is how she would dress herself on. Campus and this was huge because Indiana University in Bloomington we call it. You know bloom Turkey at least when I was there because it's essentially the offer sow you know and so it's a small town, but it's also wanted dairy rule and white, and so it was a place that was very hostile to black students like my mom and particularly students like my mom who were wearing these bold. African garments in natural hair. So I wanted to write about my mom ammash to her and how she was one of this you know these early black women who are wearing their hair natural. But then also to situate her in this important time in place on college campuses when you have this influx of African American students who are going to college on the highest at that point in history. In most of them are attending predominantly white its tuitions like an Indiana University and these are places that are still. Not fully integrated in the DORMS and other housing options at the universities offers. So I was able to office rich. Documentation in Indiana University archives on black student led protests against the white sororities and fraternities who had access to all these beautiful sorority mansions on on the row they all housing and because of their discriminatory membership practices, they didn't have to they didn't accept black black members that meant black students not have access to any of that Housi- but even in the dorms I, think they just started just started integrating slowly dorms in maybe a decade. or a decade ahead at half before my mother. Got There. So you still have all these black students who don't have enough housing on campus until they're protesting doing sit in on the president's lawn. To, fight for Howley and that was just mind blowing to me because of course, by the time I went to Indiana University in the late nineteen, Ninety s housing was pretty much completely integrated you know but in my mom's day that was not the case and that was just you know what? Short Twenty, twenty, five years earlier being. So I just was in awe that Axel is important for me to her within this broader IU campus history within also there. was so much written in the black press magazines like essence were writing about black women's experiences in how hard it was for them to leave. Berry segregated black communities in urban centers that had grown up in to go to places that were predominantly white where they were somehow that somehow all set in they were undervalued invisible but also hyper visible at the same time as someone who did not belong so that to me was a rich part of the black power. And Soul style movement history that I felt like had not really been fully explored. So I wanted to use a very personal story through my mother to illuminate that broader his. You write a couple times. He Start Your book with Angela, Davis, and then she comes into play again in this in this chapter because I think your mother had a poster of her on her wall and her dorm room and how you know Angela Davis was a fashion icon obviously to your mother and so many people I'm kind of glamorized in the press you right about that as well. But she and other women activists really showed people like your mother and or quote you how to arm themselves with words, clothing and hairstyles to project a sense of self confidence. So they're basically giving these young women this language right with which to project their identities. To the world in a confident way in which they felt supported and you yet that wonderful picture of your mother and her friend and her room, and really that decorating her room and all of these ways and the way she wears clothing away that she felt safe and part of a community you write that your mother was actually a pioneer of the sheiky diaspora bringing the radical black consciousness it represented to the fashion challenge for Wayne needless to say soul style was very much a part of your own upbringing The very first line dressed in dreams is we were a cheeky family dickey's town, which is a pretty strong image to think about. And it is with this little introduction to Tunisia's dressed in dreams. A black girls love letter to the power fashion that we are actually going to conclude today's episode Tunisia will, of course, be back in two days to continue the conversation about her wonderful memoir her love letter to fashion. That is truly a testament to the deeply personal relationships we form with not only are clothing, but with each other and that doesn't stay dress the spurs may you consider the political power and potential of your clothing next time you get dressed? Be sure to check out to work at Tennessee for DOT COM and also we love hearing from you our listeners. So if you would like to email us, you can do so at dress at Iheartmedia dot com, you could also direct messages on instagram at dress underscore podcast, or you'll also find images company each week's episode, and you can follow us on facebook at dress podcast without the underscore and as always. Special. Thanks to our producers, Casey p Graham and Holly Fry and everyone else that iheart radio mix show possible each and every week catch you Thursday. Trust, the history of fashion is the production of radio for podcasts on my heart radio visit the iheartradio APP apple podcasts wherever else listen to your favorite ships. Hi I'm lucky. I'm bald I'm Charlie Sanders also bald and we want to talk to people about a Charlie did you know that the less hair you have the more interesting you become of course, everybody knows now right I mentioned it. Then on our podcast ball talk we interview people about being ball Brian is this show just for Baldi's Charlie no hair rose will enjoy this too I mean the show is about perception insecurity vanity just like human stuff and you believe the things that come up listen to ball talk on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to podcasts. Maginness. You've been playing football for years dreaming of going pro. And then it happens. Life is you know it changes with a phone call They call the real. Gold this is Keegan. Michael Key and welcome to draft it. This podcast series follows eight players as they enter the twenty twenty NFL draft. This is their real life as it unfolds in real time and each player tells his own story unfiltered. I'm not first rounder not even the top three rounder. This is something I've been dreaming about when. We go behind the scenes before during and after one of the biggest days of their lives and we relive every detail from the players perspective. Please, join me on the first step in their journey to greatness. Welcome to draft it. Listen to drafted on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
Jonestown - The Murder | 126
"You know, people say necessity is the mother of invention. But that's not always true. Sometimes the mother of invention is advertising. Yeah. Or pure accident. How about ego maniacal delusion? Absolutely. Or just a desperate longing. To be cool. I'm Robert lamb, and I'm Joe McCormick. You're the host of the science podcasts stuff to blow your mind. And now we're branching off into the exploration of invention. Invention is the story of human history told one piece of technology at a time the things we made and how they made us invention publishes every Monday, listen and subscribe to invention on apple podcasts the iheartradio app or wherever you find your podcasts. He'd evening. Here's what's happening. We're interrupting special broadcasting to bring you the special report a new C news break on the peoples. Temple mass suicides and Jonah and the murder of congressman Leo Ryan. I would mention the bodies of at least four hundred nine men women and children some shot to death. Most apparently self poisoned have been found that the Guyana jungle camp of people stem to aim was to build a utopian society. The peace to beauty the sense of accomplishment, and responsibility and comrades here. We are making a place of refuge for all of you here. None of this would have been possible. Had it not been for Jim Jones. Even a lot of hard news people reacted in horror and disbelief the word on everybody's lips was shades of offshoots. John still missing. Elation that many of them may have been marched out into John shot. How does the church go so astray how does one man hold so much power over nine hundred plus people that they will lay down their lives in the lives of their children for them tonight. We talked the Jonestown mass murder and its legacy on hysteria. Fifty one. The shaef. I'm disturbed. Credible. Historical panic. I think we're getting into a weird area. Hysteria. You can't handle the truth through. This is stereo fifty one. The truth is out. A two one find a tear coming for you. Look that has one of them now. Welcome into stereo to the podcast never met him. Jones. What we know agai who knows the guy who knows Jim Belushi this. This is Terry fifty-one speak for yourself. I met him. You weren't even around when he was around. I literally three years ago. Whatever lets you sleep at night, Jim Belushi. He's also from lower fourth is. And you went to carbon. Oh, he did. Yep. We're just step behind that. We could get him. Canny way broadcasting from the lower for it to mention otherwise known as Chicago, we're your hosts and head investigators in this twisted tale Brent hand in jungle for the third voice. You're here. He is our resident drunk also robot. I built make our pockets better who instead just gets drunk and kills cats. He is the one and the only thing the Lord conspiracy. But don't forget also screw up the show on purpose. If you were giving my resume get it, right anyway, speaking of drunk, I need your help. What? Now, dude, we told you we're not help you with your new booze business. It's a startup. Thank you. And I know you won't you're an idiot. But I know someone who will I'm going on shark tank, your what did I stutter I'm going on shark tank? How in the world are you getting on there? Pretty simple gonna take a new down there. Pay the entrance fee and go on entrance fee to be on. What are you talking about? Well, it costs money to get in. You should know. It's your money whole hold on. Hold on. I think. Got this one see, but you're taking a new era where exactly are you going to be on shark tank? The shed aquarium think I'm starting the pieces together. So you heard that you could get startup investment from shark tank. So I'm gonna guess here a wild, guess you googled shark tank. Chicago's is that right? And you're going to the shit aquarium to beyond a shark tank. Got it. I think it's great idea, buddy. I'll even pay for the you already. Did it's on the way. And I'm really let's finish into our topic. And guests last week, we told you about the monster. Jim Jones this week. We're going to get into what actually happened at Jonestown Guyana. And if you listen to our last episode, you'll know our guests did such a mediocre job. I kid that we invited them back this week. I back in the lower for at the mention like he never left because he likely never left, Mr. Joe pack. His name is pecker back sit near waiting for re-gather. I turn the light on here. Yeah. I didn't. Well, we got other bumper to play. Chris. His competition for space in your hearts here again and Lavan, Chris I'm just here for the socialist paradise. And last, but not least back in the lower forthr- only the second time, but likely already more respected than either of the other two. Oh, I believe it to Mr. Christopher Markham. Thank you very much. And I'm here for the Monkees if you have any for sale. Yeah. Heard the monkeys for sale. Hey, you know, you only have to pay me. Just let me tell you will story thing, I'm running you keep this going. You're gonna you're gonna get another BJ and the bear reference. So last week, we told you about Jim Jones, the monce responsible for this horrific tragedy. We're getting the meat of it. The actual Jonestown the murders the massacre, whatever you wanna call it. We're going to break down. Just what happened how it happened and it's legacies. But first let's start off. I think the best places started some cold hard facts and stats, you know, what kind of tragedy were actually dealing with in case. You're not familiar, and even if you've heard of it, you might not know exactly what went down. So on November eighteenth of nineteen seventy eight the mass murder suicide of members of the California people still call took place at the urging of their leader Jim Jones in that's play spoiler here. But that's what this is all leading to and it happened in the Jonestown agricultural commune in Jonah and the death toll exceeded nine hundred including in this is disgusting. Three hundred people aged seventeen and under many of which were infants or toddlers, and this is the largest mass death suicide in American history. Like, we said in the intro to last week's episode. Before nine eleven was the largest civilian casualty of event, and then after nine eleven second largest, we're going to talk about this these hindsight's twenty twenty but how does averse church group who sit out to build as they said. And they thought they were really doing paradise on earth, a utopian society free of racism and hatred in unleashing fro intents and purposes hell on earth that culminated in one of the greatest crimes that are mind time, we're going to try to answer that I don't know how well we're going to do, but we're going to try, and it is it's a disgusting story. So how does one man I think let's start by going John? How does one man steer so many so far stray I think we need to start with just a cult. And so let's define what a cult. Right. Cult noun a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. Schick we actually went over this in our Heaven's Gate episode. But it's a good refresher. Or? Relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices, regarded by others as strange or sinister finally a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. Sweet. And you know, it's funny. I think the key word there is excessive and you know, of course, that's a that's an objective word. Right. But it is certainly the keyword third. One is the one that fits the most in this whole Jim Jones, and the Jonestown story one that fits in most colts. Exactly, exactly. So I tried to say this last time. I don't know how if I got my point across how eloquent you're no one sits out to join a cult. I hope you might start out to try to build one. But no one sits join one. But some of us do have plans to build them with so many find themselves in one and Jonestown of the people simply will it was no different. These people found themselves in a Colt. Do you think they knew it at least towards the end, or do you think the reply I think some of them, of course, knew it? And I think they. They fell for this guy for his quote authenticity. And and saying what's on his mind. But also the 'cause that's that the 'cause I think there's so many of them that knew what Jim was doing was wrong knew that Jim is probably bad person yet the cause was what they really cared about. And they saw Jim as person that was going to make that happen or they were truly just frightened. You know, mama. Don't like tattle. He got out people along that line stitches, right alum at one of questioning, I I'm always curious to hear you guys feedback on this of like one of the things that strikes me as unusual with the Jim Jones story is typically when you think of some sort of whether it's an old religious group, a, quote, unquote, Kalt, whatever or even just a bad person doing bad things, you think of recently, you know, like something like the Jerry Sandusky situation in recent years or even on a larger scale in older skill. You think? Of Scientology most people don't look at that and say, Jerry Sandusky acted alone. And there was no one involved could enable him we all know like lots of people are in prison because of that or you look at Scientology like no one says, everyone is following the deceased leader L Ron Hubbard. There's this group of people that sort of run things I never hear or read or see anything about that. With Jim Jones. It's sort of like there's him, and there's the followers. Do you guys know of any evidence was there sort of an ill? Yes. Greer was absolutely Ebeling the called the planning commission and at first planet commission was a small number. But a group about one hundred at one point, and it became if you were part of the planning commission, you are part of the chosen group, it became a kind of a higher class a caste system within the temple and those planet commission members were able to mete out punishments and do gyms benefit especially when he got really bad with drugs. Then most some of those people really came. Before and later on when we're at Jonestown, we can talk more about Rick Sarasin and Carolyn Layton and more. Now, I don't know if this is true of every member of the planning commission, but certainly a lot of them being the planning commission was kind of like being chief of staff at the White House. You're not going to be there. The whole time the leaders there like e burn out and a lot of the planet commission did a lot of them eventually left and turned and turned on Jones. And we're one of the reasons that eventually the congressman congressman Ryan win to Jonestown because of some of the information that the former plan commission members and relatives, right? So so is the thought that some of them ended up becoming so ensconced in it that they are equally culpable to him. Or is the thought that no they were the blind Lou. Well, I think that if I may sorry, I think the thought is they got a taste of the same. Same sort of power. And they saw through Jim as his faculties are diminishing because of the drugs they could start to step up and take the place of some of that power. Right. The thing about it is we're looking at these people. How do you follow a Munster? How do these people that are these planning commission? How do you follow? These people will the temple was very active in humanitarian causes in its community in a time of prejudice. And hate it was a welcome escape a very, welcome escape and escape was the actual plan of intially. And when I mean that is for over three years Jones and all the people worked with the iana government to create Jonestown. And so in the fall of seventy three after this critical newspaper articles by Lester consulting, and the defection of eight timbale members Jones and the temple attorney, Tim stone prepared an immediate action content. Agency plan for responding to a police are media crackdown. He knew it was coming at one point. They were going to have something put down. So the plan listed varies options. We we talked about, you know, they were they were looking at places in Brazil included, maybe fleeing the candidate or the Caribbean. Missionary post they looked at Barbados Trinidad places like that. They actually quickly chose Ganda a lot of it had to do with his extradition treaties with the US. So he knew it was a place that he was going to be able to stay meaning the US could not demand him back. Right. It was also one of the few countries in South America. That was all ready socialist. Yes. Yeah. They embraced it in Georgetown, the capital Russia had their own consulate there. It was very much. It was a very pro communist in socialist place. So by October Seventy-three, the directors of the temple Jones in his in his cronies pass a resolution to establish an agricultural mission there. Why guillano well? We kind of said that because its own soul spouted, whose they were moving further left during the selection process, but former temple member Tim Carter who plays into a lot of these stories about Tim Carter was a key figure in some people questioned a lot of the things he says, but you know, he comes forward with a lot say that reasons for choosing the temple views of perceived dominance of racism and multinational corporations in the US government. They wanna get away Carter said the temple concluded the Jonah, an English speaking socialist country with a predominantly indigenous population and with a government, including prominent black leaders would afford black tipple members, a peaceful place to live a paper. That's great English. Viki is is key as well. Let's be honest, not a very powerful government. So you you have to know that they perceived that and knew that they could kind of get away with what they wanted as long as there is some money degree some poems. When you see that when you are. A person who likes to take advantage of situations as Jim Jones has proven to be obviously Gannon's gonna look attractive. So he kept injecting himself into politics everywhere. He wasn't a politician, but he got behind these politicians with and also there were times when he would send temple members to forge relationships like romantic relationships with the government. I didn't know that was the name for they they had a name women that provide like literally were there to provide these services Ma what's the? The children got the same thing. And they were floor flirty. Fishers was children of God. Yes. Yeah. He uses. Yes. He looked Yana. He saw it as small poor in independent enough for him to easily obtain influence and official protection, which he got from the prime minister because they aligned in their views. And it's something he in their pocket books. Usage is typically the prime minister that one of the women like was specifically assigned to him. And this is what kind of differentiates him from a lot of other cult leaders is he enjoyed public support, and he had contact with some of the highest level politicians the United States, especially when he's in San Francisco, we talked about he was with Rosalyn Carter in the mayor's in on nail government. Since you know, he was probably the most powerful person in the history of America. Walter mondale. Yeah. So in seventy four Jones and the temple negotiated lease of over thirty eight hundred acres of land in the jungle it's about fifty miles west of the capital of Georgia house also northwest really bringing down the dumb choice. It was such a it's isolated it had terrible soil. So it couldn't really grow much the nearest body of water was seven fuck and miles or eleven kilometers away on mud roads and keep things. Interesting. Jonestown location wasn't too far from the Guineas disputed border with Venezuela. And the actual one of the reasons prime minister was yet take this is thought if he put an American presence in American citizens there, it might deter military incursion that they thought was coming at anytime Joe crossed on that. What year was it that we is collective humanity decided that it might be smarter to build our encampments are our cities. Are living quarters close to water. I can tell you with absolute certainty. There is no year because it literally forever wasn't that with. When was the first year them home? The light sparks in the mind of the first man, what was together around something water, literally say, it wasn't Iraq. It wasn't a tree hip late. But there was probably one group that gathered around a rock. We haven't heard called Atlanta. Atlanta where the coolest thing about the city is it's about an hour and a half away from savannah, you're gonna say our half away from the George guide stone. Oh, so they decide this is the perfect place. Let's build fifty members begin the construction Jonestown. And that say it was rough. Oh talking. This showed up there built a shack to to sleep in. And they had to clear out the jungle Viann. The videos and pictures and advertisements to convince the people that go there. It was like literally straight outta lake in nineteen seventies timeshare scam. Oh, look at this paradise. That's a waiting you. And then it was none of those. I fifty they literally they said they had to work, you know, eight hour days they were clearing out by his what was Kim Kim Jong or Kim Jong Il's father. I came over to. Yeah. He used his his principle of eight hours of work, eight hours of study, eight hours of sleep. And that was how they Jones envisioned that this would the best day that they ever had after months of work was when they got a bulldozer. Right. I mean, why does videos are amazing? They're just such a testament to the fortitude, and the will of those people they call them high nears, the first people that the red Jonestown if you look later, if you never knew that story, and you just looked at the buildings the clearings, and you find out that they did that all themselves and that they did get some heavy machinery later on. And that they worked with some locals to figure out what kind of crops that what they had to do. Right. Oil to grow anything at all anything. Right, right. But the fact that they were able to have what they head right? So they cleared most of that out without bulldozer by. Very I it was like machetes and hand fucking hang. Then later, the the Ray fat some that that those are some strong people, but the whole of the doing this. He's spinning this yarn of the socialist paradise sanctuary, and he's also working with the the officials the government, and they were getting granted permission important certain things duty free. That was another thing you can bring things plus later, payoffs helped him safeguard shipments of other things like firearms and all the drugs. He was using the end you can bring things preferably guns and drugs. Whichever you bring a lot of those. And if you're not familiar territory, it's it's worth noting. Chooses at no point when any of the the certain build up was going on was Jim Jones actively living. There was not right. No. So there are all of these people living there, and they say that once they got established once they had a schoolhouse once they had multiple living quarters once they had a big utility kitchen and off ball field was actually had a they had softball field. Yeah. A long day a laundry behind the kitchen because you could dry your clothes from the heat from the oven. I mean, but they said it was kind of like paradise to them. It was it was laid back breakfast would be this leisurely breakfast of biscuits and coffee, and everyone was just really happy and they worked they worked tails off, but they were all friends it was kind of communal living, and they were building something together. They were building something together. And then Jim Jones would visit he visited wants to make one of these propaganda videos that you were talking about and the atmosphere would completely chain, right? What you would go from this amazing happy place to this dark cloud looming over in these are the tips that they use about their leader's visit and but up until then it was a completely different place in in. They would use people's experiences as propaganda to get others to come there. But then they kept sending more people there. Right. And he's using this as go there. Go there go there for a reason things are going to stray in the US for him times. Not great. And we talked about this in the last one tipple members were being regularly humiliated. Beaten blackmailed coarser brainwashed into sunning over their possessions, including their homes to the church black members. And members of other minority groups were convinced that if they left the people's temple, they would be rounded up by government concentration camps and exterminated that some that he'd preached them. They believe in family members were kept apart in courage to inform on one another. That sounds like another religion that's out there. But we're going to leave a nameless right now. And this did not go unnoticed. That's a big thing. Pass members in family members of people that were active in the people's temple began to protest and the people that were past members were really good at protesting mirror. We learn that. Yeah. Exactly. They were rounded up on buses until the protests. They knew how to do it. And so they begin to ask questions to reach out to thirties to do it in a way that actually got results, and it did so in seventy seven after members of the press begin to ask questions about Jones operation, he kinda realize it's time to cut and run the writing was on the wall. And I think that this wasn't just a gradual thing, you know, we're John making good point about how the people were at Jonestown at first once they got kind of stabilized. Right. And I think that goes to a point where it wasn't just about Jim wasn't about religion. It was about the cause. And it was about socialism. And is about the political aims that they had because they acted a certain way. In Jones's absence. There wasn't any of the punishments. There wasn't any of this that Ryan nights about that stuff. When he wasn't there. And it literally sounds like Cisco in the sixties all missing or some Allman brothers and their hair. Yeah. And also that they were working towards having enough acidity and and infrastructure support to have as many of the people has wanted to come. But as we're going to find everything happened in a much accelerated way, and that so it was it was meant to. Yeah. Right. It was meant to be holding one hundred or two hundred people at that time nineteen seventy seven, and then all of a sudden and got accelerated we keep talking about media attention. But there's one specific article that got it done, and it was an article in new west magazine. Interesting story, this came from another member of his inner circle the publisher of new west magazine called Jones and said, I just want you to be where we're going to publish this tomorrow. This is an expose in. It's not exactly. Gratifying on on your on your church, and it says her Begum, and he read them. He read them the article there speakerphone Jim is looking around and people in the room say he's looking more and more stricken as they go on visually, Jim rights note. And and pass it around to all the people in the room. And all the note says we leave tonight and leaves night him and several hundred people left with the six fucking hours. That's how much poli hat the article calls out almost everything that we talked about in the first episode from his beating of members his extortion plans every and hadn't all of these people are most of them given all of their money and their possessions to him by then anyway, have what he says relieving like, okay? So boom, he takes several hundred people to Jonestown, and it's up and running for for better for worse. Like, you said, we're ready for a few hundred people will guess what two hundred now we're bringing a lot more than that. So you know, what let's. Head to break when we come back. Let's talk what life was like there when this huge influx came in. Because he was scared. I think that's best way to put it coming up next on hysteria. If you want scared. Doubt. Tell you live your life sales. Yep. But not this. Are we alone aliens really exist the existence of extraterrestrial life is captured our collective imagination for generations, those who claim to have had a counters believe what they saw. But what does the evidence show, John? Well, our listeners will know that it shows aliens are real, no, I'm kidding. Actually, there's a new show from the park cast network that explores this exact phenomenon in detail. It's called extraterrestrial in exam is these stories with a critical eye analyzing possible scientific explanations and determine what really might have happened, and whether or not we are really alone spent over one hundred million dollars researching UFO's that we know of and have nothing to show for it. 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But I also don't know how to and well guess what there's someone's going to teach you, and they're gonna teach you in the jungles Agana because Jones going to take you to paradise and YouTube, and you know, how you know, it was or utopia Jim said other than that bananas. I can't tell you how many videos I. Hannah's so many bananas and somebody mentions of bananas small ones large ones. There's just bananas everywhere. Well, he was playing maybe. His new monkey business. The head have bananas. So question does Mr. mugs. Does Jim bring Mr. mugs the sky or where did Mr. mugs come from throwing bubbles because I didn't see any wasn't. I think you and then he went down. Mr. Mr. mugs was given dose of catharsis. And he's like this. He's outta here. I'm I'm fucked a lot of comedy in Jonestown what with all the banana peels. Hey, pretty great. Just like, Chris, Ed? This is a big thing. He comes and the showed the arrival he's coming in. And they were talking about it in boom. This dark cloud looms over them and Suzy gets there, and they said life just changed overnight. People said the atmosphere Kabila changed morale dipped as it would movie night, you're talking about cancelled in favor of Soviet propaganda shorts. He would play an documentaries on American social problems also movies, by the way. So let's not get too crazy. What are the chances? Actually, it just happened to be that what? Right when he came. It was when the seasons we're turning to winter like, no. It's like the dark. It was cold the atmosphere changed or from my guy. He just shows. So last week we had movie night. Would we watch Butch and Sundance? Oh, what are we going to show? What are we going this week Marxism in you has? Why you don't want your own property? Documentary on the long March the other thing of it. The other thing that really changed when he got there is he had all these bureaucratic requirements, so labor sept- for other resources in nicely bureaucratic. It's not even there outside of it. It's also this huge infrastructure inside Jonestown buildings started bawling into disrepair weeds growing like shit was just getting overgrown, right? And we have to say this to that when we were talking about the pioneers, and that they had it stabilized, and they had it going on. And they felt pretty good about things. That's because there were one hundred people there and all one hundred of them could work once the eight hundred nine hundred thousand people are there. I large portion of them are elderly cannot work. A large portion of them are children cannot work. So all the work has to be done by just a small number of people. Yeah. And you take the the the workforce in the new divided up to a lot of them are also taking care of the elderly take the sick children the children. And even the children they're talking about the you're in like one room like shacks thirty three kids to a person. Right. Well, the. Not to mention the dysentery the broke out that bowl that only shitting like crazy out literally dysentery and fever was breaking out rampant. The Oregon trail was a paradise quarters. Were my oxen died the quarters were basic four walled structures five. All we got him. The lower the mention. Of all the things I've said you decided zone in on that one. Yep. You're right. I meant meant to house like four people, and they would have ten or twenty people in one of these same these same shacks? They always say we'll Jones lived with other people doing he did. But not like that any also in his shack. He had was called the house he'd sodas and snacks and. Meet which was a blessing. If you could get meat while you were there things like that. School and study time they were there. There was that there was night lectures for dolts. And but they turned before it was a good thing. They were learning. They were doing what they're doing. It turns discussions about revolution in enemies with lessons focus on Soviet alliances Jones crisis, and he talks about these mercenaries going to be sent by Tim stow, and who had defected from the people's temple and turned against the group Easton in these mercenaries. They're gonna kill everyone caravan of mercenaries. Yes. And the horrible Tigers all these animals these camps describing if you go out into the jungle you will be eaten immediately. Right. The telling the kids kids are being told these horrible stories about don't go anywhere near the jungle. Choose going to run into the jungle. They just got off a sixteen hour work day. They said if you worked at twelve hour that was like, whoa. What did you do? That was awesome. Like, you're in favor. You know, that's crazy too thin. And we said earlier that. Yeah, it sucks. Because you couldn't build or excuse me growing from the soil. But that was is located. And I think it was isolated for reason. Because Jim didn't like when that one boy left that barn when he was given his preacher when he was young. This is now he's like, well, we're going to clear this out. And then right in the middle of this thick asks jungle, which there were Tigers. There were all these things that are something that million. Well, and the other thing is when you're you're out there, and you're you're you're working six days. Then you got to sit through these lectures, and not only that lectures, he had a system, and he would record these lectures or just be on the PA because he's hopped up on drugs all night long screaming in these these Marxist, social doctrines all night long. It's like my Hardaway. He just played them on repeat and those drug problems. We are talking about have gotten even worse at this point. And so most of these rambling lectures, are incoherent. And and that's the fun part. Because then he might randomly come find you the next day or the next time they get togethers and quiz you on the lecture. And if you couldn't get his quiz, correct his questions. Correct. You got about of catharsis catharsis got worse off you. I couldn't I couldn't run a cult like this. Because that's the only reason I had access to figure system twenty four seven. I would just be doing comedy routines. And also saying you are all appreciated your hard work is going unnoticed your weight or and now everybody put your hands together. And welcome to the stage Porsche these questions. No. No. Partially are strip club has higher standards William to the main stage doors foul enough on the side as we got me because they're used their real names. The catharsis got worse before I mean, it sound bad before they with humiliate you. They'd beat you now for kids, for instance, if they're going to be if they were going to go through catharsis, they might just get thrown into a box. They had they had buried a storage container. They called the box or something like that. And with throw them in there, and they would have the in the complete darkness. They would have someone whisper things like you're going. We're I'm after you. I'm gonna get you. And then adults would be stripped naked might be beaten while they're walking through the crowd. They would do all sorts of horrible thing with the kids the next interrelation of that was then they started putting them at the bottom of a well and doing that. And the next generation was they hung them in that. Well, upside down for twenty hours most disturbing thing that I heard was actually audio of this a guy who survived and his friend try. To get away. When they were he was about twelve years old and they ran into the jungle and they were eventually hunted down by the security team. And brought back in they had the entire Jonestown people there, and this is all on audio documented, and they're like, what do you think we should do and the guy's mothers? I think we should kill him. She's like, I think you should allow me to shoot him because it will mean more in front of everyone when I'm the one who kills them. And this is his mother, of course, he wasn't killed. But he was like we didn't know and people were always assuming that if they did run away. They would be killed. That was just a fair assumption to Jones had a history of being associated with deaths of temple members. There were at least eight deaths before they even went to Guyana in in California that were suspicious. Ultimately, we mentioned how finish. Doc on Trump's twice in back of the head. Who hasn't had that nightmare? We mentioned how congressman Ryan eventually comes. That's at the behest of a father of a former temple member, and we'll get we'll get to his visit and a bit. But it is well known amongst the temple that death is not necessarily off the table. And that's the way the Jones wanted it. Yeah. He absolutely did. A cable comes from the US embassy Yana to the US department of state in June seventy eight and it characterizes the Tommy Jones something founded on is this. This is a quote during the consular visits. It has been observed the local Guineas administration exercise little or no control over the Jonestown community. And that the settlements atonomy seems virtually total that is due to a variety of reasons, which include the fact that the area in questions remote. And thus. The government's rather primitive administrative machinery is already overstrained by its obligations to the Guinea citizens living in the region as well as. Understandable disinterest in the part of the local officials to bother with an apparently self sufficient community of non Guineas who obviously are not actively seeking inexpensive contact with the Guineas environment to which their settlement is located. What we have there for is a community of American citizens existing as a self contained and self governing unit in a foreign land of which for all intents and purposes is furnishing to the residents all of the community services such as civil administration police and fire protection education health care excetera normally provided by central government within its territory. That's was the report on it. And that sounds like the beginnings of dictatorship or. Or? Yeah. Right. That was alarming to people back home. That was the report though, it sounds kind of a noxious other often their own they're off on their own. And he the knew what he was maybe capable of. So that was scary. If problems started creeping in very fast, we talked about how bad though, the the soil was we'll guess what? Foods started running short bad soil. Jones was not self sufficient ahead, import large quantities of commodities such as we things. The problem is they had money to do it. He just wasn't doing it. Right. He had something like a tapped twenty some twenty three million dollars. When it was said and done which would have went astronomically far in housing and taking care of these people. He was just stockpiling for into times, you said food was running short. So eventually it went from having the biscuits and coffee and everything else in the morning. I referenced before to everyone was eating rice, and they'd get smaller small. Portions of rice. There was also a big problem with bugs there. They didn't have enough screens didn't pay for enough screens. And they didn't have a lot of food cleanliness. It got to the point where they would all try to eat in the dark. So they couldn't see what they were eating in their rice. Well, and that's the point to the population of Jonestown exploding so quickly. And you we see that, you know, jumps down. I guys I pry nears went there and seventy three everybody showed up in seventy seven. So for four years they've been working stuff out. Right. Trying to get it going. And from the time Jim shows up seventy seven we're going to find that that there's not much time left. Everything else happens right in less than one year's time. It's a it's a good point. It was just it's a good point. I hadn't really thought about that way. That if you look at the entirety of the time line of Jonestown, all of this horrible nece that you read about or that we're talking about today have been pretty much from the moment. He got there on. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Right. And so for that one year must have been just a hell honor those people. Tinier out how much every. The problem is to their way of communication with the outside world was ham radio. And they would talk and people were finding out what was going on there. And it was leaving the outside world kind of bewildered, and they were taking note in family members of the people that were starting were there were starting to really worry about what was happening and that kind of spilled the beginning of the end. I told you up to sixty five thousand dollars a month in welfare payments were going to the temple just being written over children were surrended communal care, and they were only allowed to see their biological. Parents briefly at night not every day. That's crazy. They had their own way of policing people methods. We talked about, you know, we already went to the torture hole and the well and things like that. These things start really adding up that's a drug some of their people. Brent they they would use drugs like Thorazine, which I'm going to need. After this episode, sodium pentothal, I keep it on hand. Don't as he truth. Claro hydrate Demirel and valium would be administered in the quote extended care units and ended cares. Like, yeah. That's real the armed guards patrol the area to enforce Jonestown rules Brenston rule. Somebody's got info. Didn't have an empire. So me on. And then I told you the shit like that mother, you know, shoot them shoot them the outside world is finding out. It's so funny. They're so remote they're so far away. And yet it's still being picked up on. Well, and and not only that. But we we've talked continually about him managing and him ruling through fear. But he did so many things we talked earlier we talked last episode about how you know was that stick of dynamite on the burn pile actually him doing it. Well, there's some things he did in Jonestown that were definitively him doing it, for instance, at one of their big meeting said that there are there are bad people out there, and they wanna get us fast forward. He had some his own people go out into the out into the jungle and shoot at his west house while he was in it. But he knew when they were doing it 'cause he sent them out there, and he just hit on against a wall and everything they shot with. Real bullets too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course, he called an emergency meeting and said, see see these fascists are out there. And they wanna take away what we've built and also don't forget this bloody shirt from a couple years ago. Those meetings to you go to church, and when I was in church, the meeting the sermon proper would start at maybe ten thirty in the morning, and by eleven thirty or noon, you go and have, you know, Sunday dinner somewhere ship, these meetings and the pavilion at Jonestown. They would be six hours, eight hours, ten hours long. Everybody just in the pavilion, and you could not leave. Pollock was well, and he's talking about communist leaders and things like that. He's he's spewing this eight speech and things like that towards them in. He would just take breaks take a mouthful ice in crunch on it or a mouthful of like barbecue. It's not a amphetamines, and he was just crunching between one or the other all just just leading leaning this building up to a peak, and it's got to break. And it does in the beginning of the end and Senator freefall was a visit from this congressman Ryan, we're gonna talk about that when we get back from the break on hysteria fifty one everything's gone about sales. L one fear doubt like. Joe, you know, he was a salesman actually. No, no, not theoretically, actually was he sold monkeys. Remember the monkey? Yeah. Come on. Now, i'm. All right, good. I was I was going with you cut it off at exactly right. Oh boy. Thing that we should probably. Level. Oh levels right there. One thing we should probably touch on before we before we get into what happened next is the concept of white nights. And what went along with that? We mentioned that he ruled through fear and one of the ways in which he ruled through fear was he kept telling people that they're after us. They're after us, and whenever he wanted that emergency to happen that the they were coming. He he was getting them already by by having a white Knight. And the it was called a white Knight. Because there was originally a term called a black day, and I guess a black day reference somehow emergency, and he he said, well, that's racist. So let's call it a white Knight. So whenever he would get on the PA and yell white Knight white Knight white night, all of the people of Jonestown were required to go to the main center pavilion and come listen to him. And at these white nights, not only would he go on and on and on and on not only would they do. Some of the punishment. We talked about, but he also would say, you know, what it's not worth it anymore. Fuck it. We're all going to die tonight. And he would bring out Kool aid flavor aid way. Hunch. Have everyone drink it. I don't think it was drank purple. And he would have everyone drink it and say and say this. Aw. The black eyed peas did not play. They so he would he would say okay now is everyone okay with dying tonight, and you know, one or two people raise their hand, and he'd lecture them for hours as to why they're they should all be raising their hand, and they do it again. And then they'd have another white night a few days later, another it's going to be a wide. And then eventually eventually folks were so folks were so tired of this in so mentally drained and only one hour of sleep. And they're so used to it too. Because they've been they keep getting handed these cups that they're told her poison, but aren't poison that eventually they all raise their hand and resignation say I'm ready to die tonight and that happened over and over and over a false confession as someone. Right. Well, and the idea to that the the white nights they I like from the first one to the second one maybe a couple of weeks. Eventually they were almost every night. Right. Did he was he? Rogue green lantern that just had it wrong. Tonight. New Louisville shells Cape. May just added a little. Evils mind. Okay. You wear his power. Joan your fire. Joe bring up Greenland seriously. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I forget this. So we're talking about this spelling the beginning of the end does in November of seventy eight US. Congressman Leo, Ryan traveled Agana to inspect people's simple. And what was going on the whole grounds? The the compound everything he was investigating rumors that some members of the cult were being held against their will. Correct me on this one. Did he also was part of this that custody issue? Yes. With John Greystone so girl boy, signed, right, Tim and grace stone. Yeah. Their son, John Victor stone, Tim as we know Jim will make people signed things that aren't true. He had Tim signed the document that said that Jim Jones was actually the father of that child and not Tim himself. Yeah. And so they're pushing back on that sixty families came forward to Leo Ryan and said, we need your help. So he went there on behalf of them to check on their family members. Heroes in Jonestown November seventeenth, but he actually arrived Yana few days prior Jones was known to play games. And he he made them waiting made them wait like three days in Georgetown before we let them come on the seventeenth. They come in. What's crazy? And everything about this. Crazy people there when he got there were telling them how great it was about the life. They actually had a huge party everyone to be good spirits. He even remarked in. We're actually we're going to play clip of this. Questions raised about your operation right now. If you have as the folks here, or whatever the comments are people here who believe this is the best on the whole lot. It's so sad watch. How long the doesn't to how long the responses to the applause three ten minutes long? Veterans Day, though, things change in the big takeaway. And I'll bring this up later, the big takeaway is it didn't need to even from the crazy aspects of it. When Leo is leaving things weren't that bad. The next day though is the day's going to return home of the sixty families that he interviewed. None of them wanted to leave. People did come forward though, and saving the family members. Yeah. Of the of the people laying families they were all like, we're we're we're good about fifteen people did come forward and say they were wanting to leave. Hey were passing notes as well. One of the main members of the concerned relatives group is amend James could Sarah's and he was one of the big drivers of Ryan's. Visit his daughter Maria. Could Sarah's had become Jim Jones's main mistress at this time along with Carolyn Layton, and and more, and it was very good. Sarah's who kept sending letters back to her dad say leave us alone, leave us alone. I love it here. This is great. But what's really going on is Maria Qatar is assuming assuming and assuming more and more control and power over not just Jim. But then by extent, right? The whole operation and those three women that really are calling the shots and may. Making things happen towards the end because gyms almost just incapacitated. And where was Marceline during this because she was mother for so long as they are. She was in bad health, and okay, well, she was in bad health. And then she also just accepted, the story of Marsh lane is just almost tragic in the sense that she accepted, all this all the women all the other things all the other relationships that German have as part of her duty. She had to do it in her mind, she she was doing the right thing. And staying with him a lot of the supposition is that she really just did all of this for her kids, which is not an excuse. Anyway, she do there's nine hundred people along with you, you know, yet. Right. But the, you know, the other thing you mentioned how win the congressman got their how they all said how great it was. They were quizzed because they they had well, they they had much advance notice. It'll not including the three days of the made them. Wait. Right. All right. They had a lot more than that advance notice that the congressman would becoming and so he would quiz the people at these white nights. He would say, okay, he comes up to you. And he says how do you like it here? What's your response? He comes up to you. And he says are there are there? Terrible things happening here. What's your response? And if he didn't like the answer he'd say, you know, it's just not a good answer. You know, what you're going to have to avoid them. You can't talk to them. And by the way, I'm going to have to sign you some homework, and and in his what his version of homework with anything. He called him classes. It wasn't good. It was it was just another 'nother punishment. And so these people were as if they hadn't been conditioned enough. They were conditioned to say exactly what they were supposed to the moment. They were asked those questions by the congressman. That's why he was so. Why he was so astonishing that the next day on the eighteenth ruin the congress is going to leave these people like you said surpassing notes are saying things. You got nine hundred people fifteen people's all it was that came forward and said, hey, we want to leave in that shook them so much that someone pulled a knife on the congressman and tried to kill him and other other Jonestown members actually jumped on him with with a help, and they subdued this guy. They tried to kill him right there because he was going to take these way. And here's the thing. He sat down and had a long like forty four minute conversation with Jones in Jones was like, you know, these people are liars, whatever the tell you lying in congressman was like this. This is the gist of it. For all intents and purposes, I'm happy with what's going on here. Everyone seems to be happy. And most of the people that are upset. He goes, I'm Chucky up to you're in the middle of nowhere, and they feel trapped not trapped by you right up by a jungle, and they're just things -iety. He goes I'm going to go back and really give you a favorable report. And those sixty families has sent me here everyone, we're going to know your loved one is an adult. They're happy to be where they are. There's nothing you can do about it. You mentioned the note that they that they pass to the congressman actually wasn't passed. The congressman the guy who passed it didn't know who was congressman who was a who was a news anchor it cetera. Pass. It's one of the news guys. And it said, you know, help get us out of here Joan Jonestown forgetting gentleman's name at the moment. Vern Ghazni thanked ver- in when he left he's one of the people that left he left his son at Jonestown. And that's one of the thing on the tape. And he says, and he says, you know, it was confused at the time. My son was black. This is the white guy. And I just thought he'd be better off Jonestown because of all the racism in America. So we left him there. And that's what Jim Jones was using as a detraction. If you listen to the tape. He's like this guys. It's so terrible. And he's leaving the sunnier. What's what's that say about him? And he was using that against them. And after they were gonna leave and the congressman told him, you're good for you. Everything's fine. He turned to his people. It's a total loss. That's what he was. We failed at the total loss before the congressman left Jonestown. He was actually going to stay another night. Right to go around in question. The rest of the folks there and just make sure there's no one else that actually wanted to leave. And as they were sitting there talking he was literally talking to Jim Jones and a few subordinates one of the members of Jonestown run up behind him with a knife, put it to his neck and said, you're going to die motherfucker and a couple of people jump on that guy and the congressman is not hurt in any way. There's blood on his shirt and assured his torn, but the the blood is actually from the knife-wielder who cut his own hand in the scuff, the funny part was funny right after that people like you really do need to leave Vernon Ghazni said that to him before the and he's like, no, I'm fine. And then after that happened is like, maybe I should go. Yup. Thing about Leo Ryan is to you know, he knew he was well known to be this kind of guy who you might wonder what he was just about to be attacked. And then the next day is still going to be like, okay, good. Good report for you. Why would he do that? Right. But Leo Ryan was kind of known for being this kind of. Dude, you know, he'd done this thing with a prison investigation where he spent a week in jail as an inmate as an inmate. Nobody else knew it like all the other inmates. Didn't know who he really was ill. So Leo Ryan would do these kinds of things it's not odd. That Leo Ryan was the one that went they make their way to the plane and like Christmas looting to there was more of them. They needed the second plane while they were followed people from Jonestown tractor pull up trailer behind it. They get out and literally opened fire and to be clear, Jane, Jim Jones told them to fall them. Right. Absolutely. They opened fire on this group of the people that are trying to leave and the news crew that was there filming it and congressman. And there was there was a mole from Jonestown. There was a guy who was one hundred percent on Jim Jones's side. He ran up at the last minute as they're pulling away from Jonestown. I wanna leave too. I wanna leaving. And they said, okay. So they get to the airstrip and and the congressman himself pads the guy. Down doesn't find anything that he gets on one of the first planes that's going to leave? And as they're about to take off as those other gunmen pull up he starts shooting people inside the plane, right all told five people including Ryan and three members of the press were shot and killed eleven others were wounded it's a miracle survived and they laid their bleeding for twenty two hours before anyone got to them the guy that jumped in on the tractor. There's some reports later that the people that were on the truck when they saw him get on. They knew things were going to Jake was up. Right. And that man was Larry Layton and his sister. Caroline late now. Yes, originalmattress of Jim Jones. I'm one of the original like one of the main with her Maria. Sarah's at the end who were the real drivers of the end game Larry late and was the one that lit the fuse. You know, like started off with right killing the congressman, right and Carolyn Laden herbage idea. It wasn't the flavor. She was her thing was that she wanted to take small groups out at a time and shoot them just the whole the whole while go through all nine hundred plus people do that what was going to choose you won't try to kill him. But then and more who was in kind of in charge of the, you know, where the medicines and the drugs and all that stuff. She was the one that kind of mixed up the brew they'd been practicing. And so they knew what they were going to do and the other side notice they'd been receiving packages every month of cyanide because Jim Jones has jeweler license, and they're using it to work with gold. So he's getting these shipments of pounds every month of cyanide. So they have it there. And they find out he comes back. There's audio of all this. He's like the congressman has been killed. Pretty much. It's time to it's funny. Not certainly not funny. It's interesting. They call it the death tape. It's when he has gathered everyone together for the final white Knight. And he's saying, you know, it's pretty much the end it. There's nothing else. We can do. It's time for us to die. And this is before they know that anything has been carried out towards the congressmen. But he says, I know for a fact that someone while they're in the air is going to shoot the pilot of that lane and that plane is going to go down, and then the American fascists will paratroop in here, and they will take your kids in torture them. And this is this is all before they'd come back actually said the congressman is dead. And so he's getting them already because he's the one who issued the order, and he says it's time children commit revolutionary suicide, and his theory was you can go down in history saying you chose your own way to go. And it's your commits refused. Capitalism and in support of socialism. If you kill yourself people tried to plead with him and eat a man of the deaths of everyone man woman child, and and that's important people were poisoned, and if you didn't take it they did autopsies only of the I two hundred bodies, and they stopped seventy of them had injection wins. So they figure those people were murdered the most vocal dissenter. Her name is Christine Miller, and she is on long back and forth. Jones about we go. Yeah. I mean, you know, one point maybe it's just her idealism. But it also kind of feels like she'll say anything just like, hey, how about we not kill thousand people right now, you know, and and she's trying to be a it's amazing that one person speaking up doesn't lead to a second and third you most of the time in general settings. You know, the what is it? The pebble starts the avalanche or whatever I it's just one after another. And a cast cascading effect, and it does not have that cascading effect because these people have been so ingrained indoctrinated into them. And also, I think the thing that's worth two point. You were talking about the syringes, you know, first they pull out the poison, and it's time. Okay. They start with the children. And this is this is the hardest part of this. I don't know why it is why why children are more difficult than adults. But I guess maybe children just for one hundred percent have no choice, and they're taking the kind of syringes that aren't needles, but just shoot liquid like if you're getting giving a kid medicine, and they start taking infants and babies and two year olds and three year olds and put it in this in them, and and you can hear Jones sane in that tape. It doesn't hurt. They're they're just giving you that face because it doesn't taste great. It's a little bitter says bidder, and you know, that right, then they're poisoning three hundred children. And then it goes onto the adults and you've got Christine. Millard dissenting. But we don't know is the other six hundred plus adults. What exactly was having with them? Certainly you can hear few clapping and applauding in that tape. But the line between I want to do this, and I have a gun to my head. So I better drink this with the hope that this is the three hundred seventh time that he's faking. It is is thin one. So said they were interviewed one of the guys he said that that hope went out in about five minutes when people started foaming at the mouth, and dying is a lot of people that wanna know part of it, then we're just defeated. And just said fuck it. I'll die in that is another hard thing to swallow. These more than three hundred children died people were just doing mothers are killing their babies holding him. So then kill themselves. You know, it was the look of of the bodies is when you see for five people laying right next to each other and some of them have their arms around. Yes. Is still on the PA system. Still die with a degree of doing the layer life down with dignity don't lay down with tears, nagging mother mother mother mother, please mother, please these haunting things that he's saying die with a little dignity mother. Please die as hard. As this episode. Probably is to listen to if you are listening to this just, you know, just of the gist of the story from us don't go listen to the death tape. It is disturbing and it's not worth says on there. And this is what this is his outlook said, I tell you. I don't care. How many streams you here? I don't care how many anguished cries death is a million times for Fergal to ten more days of this life. If you knew what was ahead of you. You'd be glad to be stepping over tonight. Are you talking to yourself you fucking asshole? And it was he kept telling him how not bad the flavor aid was and and it was such an easy thing. But yet he himself did not take. No, he they figure. Was self inflicted it. They said Carolyn, Layton shoot. Well, they think he shot himself the placement of his body, and they do believe he shot himself. He laid his head on a pillow and killed himself that way, he didn't take the poison there were survivors three high ranking timbale members they claim they were given assignment and the thereby escaped death. Tim carter. He's the one. We talked about before his brother, Mike, they were thirty and twenty and Mike who was thirty one. We're giving luggage containing five hundred fifty thousand dollars in US currency one hundred and thirty thousand dollars in Guineas, currency and envelope. Which was they were told to deliver the Soviet embassy in Georgetown and the envelope contained two passports and three instruction letters the first of stating. Dear comrade, and the guy that was there at the embassy. The following is a letter of instructions regarding all of our assets that we want to leave to the communist party of the union of Soviet socialist Republic. Enclosed in. This letter are letters with instructs to banks to send the cashier's checks to you. I am doing this on behalf of the peoples temple. Because we as communist want our money to be of benefit to help our oppressed peoples all over the world or in any way that your decision making body sees fit. Now, he says he's people to live. He also there was a basketball tournament going on in Georgetown, the capital, his son, Jim Jones junior and others were there. He actually called them three of time to kill yourself. And some of them did Jim Jones junior son was like, no, no. This is stupid a woman who took her children into a VAT. Yeah, killed them. There were so the woman was with two small children and her teenage daughter, the father, the former husband who was not a part of the people's temple had flown to Jonah, but he was not one that was allowed to come to Jonestown. So he. Went to the the people's temple house, Georgetown. Yeah. And he was there. He had a nice day the day before with the wife, the daughter the kids it cetera. And then they got the call. They said, okay. Well, why don't you come back tomorrow? We'll talk about our future plans, blah, blah, blah. But that was just to get rid of him. Because then the mother brought in the two babies and the teenage daughter, and it's thought that the teenage daughter and the mother slit each other's. Also, you mentioned the basketball tournament. There's actually three of his sons, his natural son Jim Jones junior which was the first African American adopted son that we talked about before and then one other son that I'm forgetting the name of right now, we're all part of this basketball team. But it's not like, my my wife, and I were watching Stacey. We're watching a documentary about this. And she said, what do you think he knew and like sent them away to try to, you know, save them. No, no. In fact, the phone rang, and they're like, yeah. You need to come home right now. And when they refused they said find kill yourself there. Who's the opposite of let's let's show some grace and compassion. So this happened some mass murder some called mass suicide, I think both are true. And a lot of levels. You know, it depends some of it's case by case, but he really had power over these people. And that's why I think that's the big thing. So I'm gonna ask you guys. What's Jones legacy to you? Like where does it leave? You. What what what does that leave the world? I would put it in a bit of a comparison in the -nology. I recently saw a Showtime documentary on g g Allen and me and my wife were watching it. And she said I've never heard of him before. And I never want to hear of him again, and I investigated by Alan because Jalen a punk rocker in the eighties, and he would do things like bashes own mouth with the microphone. He'd be. Stripped naked on stage, smearing his own shit all over his body people. He would have sex with his brother on state drummer would stick the drumsticks up his ass and then start playing with them. It was just the most extreme. And I always fascinated when you find what the limit is. What is the example of the farthest you can take something a lot of people don't realize to started that far back. But. I just think jobs down is an example of the, you know, there's been the Bogwang there's been other colts and other religious groups of this sort. But I think that Jones is that that's why that story indoors is. Because it is so. Extreme it is. I think it is almost to the limit of what it is such gusting tail and to see these people just go. All right. Well, I'm going to be part of it. It's crazy Tim right Amon road is book. This is kind of a lot of people say like the definitive story raven. The untold story of Jim Jones was one of the NBC reporter was there. Yeah. So he's here's a couple of quotes. It is impossible to separate Jonestown from his political and social context the peoples. Temple was binney, communist, colts, churches, and social movements are and alternative to the established social order a nation unto itself, and I agree with that. That's how they wanted to be the temple. I know was not populated by masochists and halfwits. So it followed that the members who gave years of labor life savings homes children. And in some cases, their own lives had been getting something in return. That's why they went there. I think is they saw something we're going to get someone write him and added when outsiders took the attitude that they or their children would never be crazy enough to join such an organisation such complaints self delusional. I think that ties into what we said. People don't realize when they're gonna call a lotta times, you don't realize Intel hope hopefully before it's too late. But in even if it's not too late. You maybe realize it when there's no way to get the fuck out of it. Right. You've given all your things away, amber own mind. What costs does it? I mean, it costs people their lives everything. People lost whole families were wiped out because of this. I. Hey, there's really lots of banter because it's so terrible. But what's your takeaways guys? Like, do you have any closing thoughts on this? I just wanna throw in raven is wonderful document in terms of and I say wonderful, but one has in very eliminating, and is a very a great description and record of what happened I would throw in one other recommendation for anybody who wants to to really dig in Jeff Gwynn's book the road to Jonestown at once great. It's a wonderful nonfiction piece where he his point of view isn't just about the power structures and the things that Jim does it really takes his entire history. The first couple of chapters are just about Llaneta and Lynette is history. And that you find out that Jim's family on the father's side was actually pillars of the community and very wealthy and the gyms families even that comes from that. I mean, it really goes into such deep by graphical context that really brings home the point to me that I don't believe in just a person being born evil. I think. Jim Jones is an example of what can happen when Aristotle says give me boy until he's seven I'll give you the man and what happened to Jim Jones in his childhood and the things that he ended up glomming onto he took to the extreme. And he took it to his whole life. And and this is what came of it. So be to your kits. John go to their best. Some say, oh, I've always got something to say. I think I think Jim Jones. Was. I don't know if we'll say Borna monster. I'm definitely in disagreement a little bit with Chris though, I think there's choice in life. I think you could be born a bad person. But still choose not to pursue it to one extent or another. I think that Jim Jones chose to be a monster. And I think from very very early age he was planning maybe not the exact outcome, but something similar he was going to have massive control over group of people. And ultimately was the ultimate ultimate ultimate sign of control that you could get someone to kill themselves on on your behalf. And it's the question about what kind of the power, though, the power to control others or the power to make them love you. I think that's what Jim was after. But I think to Jim power was love and love was power. Right. And and to the them being one in the same. I think this to one extent or another. He succeeded in his life's goal. And I think everything he did from opening soup kitchens to integrating communities that weren't integrated. We're all in that pursuit. I don't think that a lot of people paint him as a you know, humanist and while things went bad at the end because he took too many drugs and wasn't seeing things. Clearly, he didn't always have bad intentions. I'm the opposite. I think he always had bad intentions, and I think he just he knew that he had to build from point a to point. I think it was a smart guy from point A to point beat appointed. Look how he took his church for a church based on religion to something where it was basically an atheist organization based in Marxism in communist was met by applause by those people who are the same people that were that were applauding when he would hold up the bible and say this is our God. They of course, I'm not saying that there is no culpability for everyone that went along for the ride, but men when you think about all the tax you could literally there are books written on how you manipulate people. And he took every bullet point out of those books, and he beat them down. And he got them to a point where they felt there was no alternative. And frankly, we don't know how many of those nine hundred plus people were forced to drink that drink or you know, they say only seventy were injected how the only the only inspected two hundred bodies, and they gave up. Even better seventy two hundred were injected for all we know one hundred people drank in eight hundred where either injected or forced to like, we don't know the numbers. And I think that this guy was murderous prick. I'm glad he's dead, and I feel bad for the families and all the people that lost their lives that day. It is a fine line agree with that of he knew what he was doing along the way was it because he was just in internally in eight leva from the beginning. Or was it something he was choosing? It was since in gross in the point of it is. Where do you draw? The like, Chris is he is he a product of society was he born evil that's a hard one. And I think that's philosopher still debate that not even outside of him day in and day out with everything. So. I'm not going to to to be able to say on that. But I think whatever he was it started very young. And I agree with John. I think he was on a path from a very young age to be what he was now he might not of always thought, it was going to be death and everything, but he sure made that early on an option, and there are there are things when he was preaching when you're still in Indiana where he actually says no one should ever take their own life. No one should ever if someone wants you to take your life. They are leaning away from God. And this it's funny because these are sermons and he gave and then within a year later he's preaching. And no one ever said, maybe that's not the way to be. I e you know, picking up on them. What we've all said. I think I think we all have good points about this. I I think the way I'd say it is nothing is ever one thing. Right. I don't think that Jim Jones was just evil. I think a lot of it has to do with his childhood has do this mother has to do with his father how he was raised how he was neglected, but I think it also had to do with that probably created some sort of mental instability, and then he was leading these people. And as we said earlier is love power power love he needed to adulation to have self worth. And that that at the beginning is it's harmful for sure. But it's it's relatively benign. But what happened was and then the drugs come in. And then the probably the part of him that is with the, you know, Shakespeare said the better angels of our nature. But what's what's the? Opposite the demons, right? The demons won and they won big time. And that that part of him is evil, and he was an evil in the end and evil person. The point I'm trying to make is that he was so selfish. And so self obsessed that it came to a point where he had a bunch of hundreds of people kill themselves because he had painted himself into a box, and he had no way out. And so he said we're all gonna die in. And it's it's disgusting box that if the cinder hadn't been killed probably wouldn't have mattered. That's that's conjecture. But there is a lot where the governor. The governor the Carters was saying, I'm okay with most of this. And he was just like, Nope. It's total loss. So the one other variable I would add because I agree with with Kevin's concept of theirs. It's just complex the one that real variable. I would add that I always think of when I read stories like this, and certainly think of every time. Watching reading anything about this one that you guys I'm sure have all seen to we've all seen people who when they're given an audience of some kind react differently in the way that they revel in that audience. It can be a preacher. It could be a professor at college. Who thinks he is the biggest deal in the room because he gets to have twenty kids a semester who come and listened every word and get tested on it. It can be someone with like a minor social media following who everything that they talk about in pop culture has to be what everyone on that social media following is like oh my God. This guy is seeing the coolest things I've ever heard of. But I think I think that's a major contributor something like this. And that's where you get to you have the choice, and I don't know it goes into that choice. You know, the nature versus nurture and all that stuff. But somewhere along the line. There's a once in a great many people that when they find themselves in that position their choices to exploit it as opposed to have fun with it. And just enjoy the concept of. Instead, they get some sort of strange in eight power trip over this thing. Like somehow, they're big deal. Fifty people on you know, on a Twitter feed re tweeted them with a thumbs up. And it's no, no, that's not you're not powerful. But the other thing say is considering them never invited back every week. This might be the one that I take you guys up on that on because my God this was. Yes. I do this. Usually by these episodes. I'm like man, I wish wouldn't end and nothing gets anybody on this panel. But I was like God. It's just terrible. Ruins, unfortunately, this is such a big name Jonestown has become you know, almost, you know, a noun verb. You know, you use it out of context people. Do it's such an event in. I think is important though for people to not forget what happened. So that it doesn't happen again. Because there's always somebody willing to take advantage literally quote that sat behind his throne in the pavilion. I'm not going to get the quote. Exactly, right. But remember history. So you're not doomed to re-. Yeah. It was worded oddly. But that's what it was. We hope your take away from this as monsters, whether they're made born they exist and watch your loved ones watch the people around, you know, what's happening in your life their life, everything if you can help help if you can't distance yourself before it's too late. What do you guys think though? That's that's kind of our takes on it. How can they list? No, John out. They can hop on hysteria nation where I promised. There will be a lot more UFO talk, maybe anal probes. But play in general, I was missing. But william. No, the fun kind. All right, kids, just go to hysteria nation. Facebook dot com slash group slash stereo, nation tour, we talk about all this stuff and a lot more. Wow. Back of the year ad bought on Twitter, patriot dot com slash extra episodes up all things like that on their leaves a voicemail if you want to hear your voice on the show seven seven three six six nine seven two seven seven again, seven three six nine seven two seven seven. If you forget any of this. You can find it all on our website. What's that site? John stereo, fifty one dot com. We are not gonna play any voicemails today because textually feel and I need a beer little gross and a little yicky. So with that said, I've been Brent I've been Kevin I've been Chris I've enjo- I've been John's been conspiracy about stay woke meet sex. That's it for a number of of hysteria. Fifty one Joan Brentwood be back next week. We've yet more of the unexplained the unexplored and the unheard of. Oh, if it's unheard of what they know about it. Anyway, if you want to suggest Toby give us your thoughts or just my fun of conspiracy votes. That's my favorite. Join us in our Facebook discussion group hysteria nation, just log onto Facebook and search hysteria nation, all you can always tweet us at hysteria. Fifty one pot. You've been listening to fourth Huns joins. Everyone. I'm doctor ause. I love getting the talk with you on my show every single day when the cameras stopped rolling. 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