3 Episode results for "Baltimore City Health Department"
Rethinking Public Health, Improving Outcomes and Increasing Impact with Sonia Sarkar, Chief Policy and Engagement Officer at Baltimore City Health Department
"Welcome to the outcomes rocket podcast where we inspire collaborative thinking improved outcomes and business success with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders and influencers and now your host so Marquez. Welcome back to the PODCAST. Today I have the amazing Sonia Sarkar she is part of the democracy collaborative as consultant to the healthcare engagement team. She started there this year. Two thousand eighteen most recently served as chief policy and engagement officer for the Baltimore. City Health Department overseeing multistakeholder community engagement strategic planning policy activities and Population Health initiatives to address health equity throughout the city. These are a lot of the topics that we thought John in the podcast and Sonia's has taken a deep dive into him both in thought and practice previously. She was a director of provider. Solutions at Avia. Health System led innovator accelerator where she worked directly with hospital executive leadership to identify and incentivize innovative solutions to patient care. So for those of you that are entrepreneurs in the space wanting to get some insights at the. You'RE GONNA get plenty here today. So it's with great pleasure that I welcome scientist. Podcast welcomes on you. It's great to be here. It's a pleasure to have you on. Now what are they missing that intro that maybe you WanNa fill the guests in? Yeah I think one of the things. I'm really excited to be part of right. Now is just engaging which different networks so. I'm currently a Robert Wood. Johnson Foundation Culture Health leader. And there I had the opportunity to be amongst dozens of really innovative acres and doers. Who are Boundaries? Our think healthcare in house today. I'm excited to dive into how we thinking about the nation's in our everyday workings APP yet to speed a lot of what you guys are offering here on this podcast. Well that's fascinating. I'm sure those those meetings would be fascinating to attend and folks here today to get a little glimpse into the thought process So as you as you do what you do what is it that got you the medical sector to begin with when I was at public. Health Undergrad at Johns Hopkins. I really fascinated bill so frustrated by the fact that you have Healthcare institutions in the country yet in the neighborhood surrounding And you also have some of the worst health outcomes the country so loud folks about Baltimore. They also have heard about or seen statistics like the fact that in early two thousands or mortality rate was spiced out of the national average or some. Your listeners might know that in certain neighborhoods in Baltimore are people can expect to live twenty years less than a living in other neighborhoods in Baltimore and so what I really wanted to understand and get to the root out wise I was in this particular instance? The best that are out care system has to offer still wasn't enough to actually deliver health so in my sophomore year there was a program called health leads which is a national social enterprise. That was really focused on acting. Dots between clinical care and a social needs of patients might have played really recognized stash. You're striving to antibiotic but the real issue is that. The child of the family doesn't have sued at home then that medical treatment is a go very far and that frustrates the patients but also the physicians and healthcare system and Hustle. Working so hard to get them better and improve their health so I joined leads was part of a CO founding team. That was really focused on building the organization from the ground up but most importantly. I spent a lot of time directly working with patients. So these were patients who lived in East Baltimore predominantly African American neighborhood. Many of them have been navigating different complex systems their whole life and they Tommy Allott Facts that although I have some friends colleagues were in medicine and saying I really most excited I interested in how different organizations different sectors outside of healthcare can work in partnership with the healthcare sector to think about how to move it upstream and how to position it s to be able to address. Some of these needs that folks coming into our waiting rooms and our exam rooms wet and ensure they were actually against the help countries. That's very insightful. Sonia and so you definitely have been there and experienced hardships through some of your work. So what would you say? An example of the work. You guys are doing now with The organizations you're involved with to improve outcomes has been. Yeah I've been really lucky to with organization and Known AS DEMOCRACY CLARATIN. They are the Own Organization to an initiative called Healthcare Anger Network which is classic of roughly forty health systems press country representing hundreds of hospitals and the network is really pushing the field for word having my extinct about something like an Acre mission strategy but I mean that is how to be engaged healthcare institutions in thinking about how to leverage their assets. Things like hiring Sherman investing all of these things that hospitals are doing their local communities and using that to identify the critical ships that are needed in order to address inequities in health and other racial economic inequities that may be within particular communities so just as an example of is it network sent some amazing meanings that together chance from across distinctly healthcare institutions one of the accomplishments that they've been working on right now is thinking about how we capture the collective impact of healthcare institution work across the country so for example collecting data on how healthcare institutions are leveraging. Their hiring practices. That it's not just about how many jobs are being created at how Mu doesn't laser will. How many are coming under represented populations? What for example may eat a full impact APP making a police chase investment as a hospital in an issue like food or housing. And what is that looking across the country so that benchmark is really one of a kind today to get speaks to the hunger which south caring for network recognizes at NASA engaging in Ankara were addressing social determinants of health threatening to do but because it can have real impact on actually improving health outcomes across or because as you improve communities by way of that health improves in those communities. Right I love that. Yeah you know I was I was in a presentation or a conference a couple years ago and the CEO of the county hospital's Had A presentation showing ZIP codes here in the city and Chicago and you know he showed how the further south you go. Your life expectancy could drop by like twenty years and he made a comment that still sits with me that genetic code may not be as strong as zip code. So what are we doing to improve that? And so your your message to me. Just kind of brings me back to that. And it's a strong one and you guys have some very granular ways of of approaching it. I think to specialists from health. Become much more prevalent term as an issue within the sector. I think a lot of your listeners are similar with that term. But those who don't know does idea that where we live and work and play has an impact on our health is something that has been around for a while but I think is really taking hold in our New Paradigm Alley Care at this idea that Satan or warehousing is or how healthy food is that we eat that. This is also a part of health care and you know ballot Austin institutions to consider that but one of the things that I also find really interesting is that I wrote about this movement. Because I've been working in this space since I was seventeen years old century when it was not seen as a nice to have I also think that in addition to becoming the sort of him focus for Nelga Center. We'll have to think about. What are the different levels? Healthier institutions can plug in on social from of health. And so you have a wide spectrum everything from you know even just asking Asians if they need access feeder housing all the way up to the anchor were talking about with healthcare network and the Myers collaborative. How do we think about the roles that helped her to play as influence as as a care provider is are all things that I know are on the radars healthcare leaders such a great perspective and Sony? Would you say you've been through a lot and and you know especially with community based leadership a lot of setbacks happen? Can you share with us? One in particular. That comes to mind what you learned from that. Yeah absolutely say is a throwback because it was one of the very first encounters diaper have health. It was working in a busy at Gatwick Clinic. In a part of you still two more and was working with a patient who had been in and out of emergency room. Her young son had been suffering from lead poisoning and asthma exacerbations because all of housing that we're living in and it was working with her to get the family assess for different types of courses that they might be able to get connected to it was really fascinating is refilling out. An allocation versus food assistance. We get get her connected to the right places within the city whether they were locally run church organizations or whether it was in federal food assistance and I realized that I had never seen how complicated the applications were before and so I was sitting there with the patient and you know struggling to make my way through it and she took it for me and she said. Don't worry like I'll walk you through red show you. Where are the places people tend to get hung up? Been curious ways in which you might want to think about having this conversation with other patients in the future and for me it was such an important you know here. I was the undergraduate from Johns Hopkins and seats in the world of public. Health and health care is important. Lesson around stepping back in creating space for the expertise of others at a healthcare as many other sectors has built on this model of a doctor and while I'm not buying that healthcare professionals are pulling off amazing piece every day. We've seen that true. Innovation in health comes often Throwing unconventional teams of different disciplines together. And really going into the heart of. Who's the end user for this hour? Just like we would never sign a cell phone without doing a ton of user testing to make sure that it's essentially like a second skin and for a consumer we haven't quite gotten there and helped carry out and I think there's a lot of room for bringing patients in shoe these conversations with our healthcare system of that. Yeah it's such a great call out and as we look to put things into place that make a difference. I think keeping it simple is definitely driving factor. What about the other side of the coin? Right you shared with us to set back up by about one of your proudest medical leadership. Experiences debate yeah about a month after I had gotten to the city health department and settled in spiral overstaying Health initiatives. We got news that the Centers for Medicare Medicare innovation were introduced saying this new accountable health communities not all at which I was so excited out because essentially the work that we were doing at the clinic level or at the local level scale so the idea behind a camera. Health community is that e thirty two awards given out across the country to different health. Systems community based organizations truly think about how to screen and refer navigate patients for social. It's two different resources that they might need to this scale. So insight was required to think about screening. Seventy five thousand Medicaid Medicare beneficiaries. And so while I was caught up in my excitement about this. I also remember feeling really worry because divine a place like Baltimore. It wasn't that this wasn't already being done. It was that it was fragmented. Their return pilots that had gone gone underway. There wasn't a central infrastructure to bring all that together so we decided that we would use the process to actually pull all the local hospitals and Health Systems. Thirteen hospitals to the table alongside community partners alongside ever agencies and think about how we could build an approach to social trends of how bad was truly comprehensive from a strategy perspective technology perspective and so that was really exciting. We actually got memorandum's remand from all the different healthcare institutions to another to be in collaboration Hat that initiative but I think it's really great example. This can look like out mothers that intentional to it. Oh for sure and KUDOS for getting everybody to agree to play together. I think that is oftentimes difficult. You know like I mean information exchange data availability from one system to the next. I think at least being able to get the group of providers stakeholders together to to work together on how to address. The social determinants of health is key. So were there any programs? developed insights gained from the processor. Yeah one of the insight. Which away was how temperately health systems wanted a common table to be able to come together particularly around at data and information exchanges. You were just talking out so in. This particular instance. Ulmer is using a health information exchange that allowed hospitals to see clinical information off different patients. I have a patient was at Hopkins Monday and in the University of Maryland Medical Center. The next day they can see whether that had been in and out of the emergency room. Or what prescriptions. They were taking when they couldn't see was the social health information and so we had a really interesting conversation about what it would look like to create a portal. That is not just one part of the expected comprehensive to the patient so that different case managers in different positions across all tomorrow's at various healthcare providers could be on the same page about what patients were experiencing. That was something that came very tangibly out of design conversation that we had during this wonderful. Now what a what? A great tool to to have at your disposal. I know that most cities in the US don't have that. So that's a testament to the work and your obsession with this Sonya to make sure we get it we get it. Done right yeah. A little obsession goes a long way. You're trying to wrangle a lot of people to be able to save them. That's excellent. That's excellent Sarnia. So so tell us about an exciting project or folks that you're working on today one of the things I'm really excited to be focusing on and that adds up the community. Experience Have Health Department with non profit experience in the healthcare system experience. I had prior to that is really fascinated by leases in which healthcare institutions and communities are working in partnership around challenges that face so one example of this is when you might have questions about you know how to get to engage around different pieces of Information Orban Desire to think more clearly about what types of advice given show. There's one program next seen in different iterations different communities across the country that actually thinks about. Karenin trusted messengers. Patients might listen to and so that could be folks from their local religious institutions so people who are part of a congregation that patient or it could be a community center. The patient goes to it. Could be that person school and thinking about the role of lay community health workers as well as professional community health workers in being that support system for patient so that everyone is operating at the top of license and that you inside the hospital within the acute care on a care. Settings at people are able to focus assign okay. You know here's what we need to do in order to get your help outcome from ADP but also acknowledging that patients live these lives outside of the four walls of the clinic and that there are rules that can be played in terms of getting someone to the clinic up with someone about whether or not. They took their medication or not asking checking something about whether they understood the post op instructions that they got thinking about leaving that blacks mosaic of health support and healthier together. I think that's something. We're seeing a lot. More Avenue cited or further conversations. About how doing that in a sustainable way while that. Yes it's key and one of the things that we we've talked about on the podcast. A lot is improving the user interface of the health system and this is both for patients as well as the caregivers and providers improving the user interface is is crucial and sewing a year. You're spending a lotta time doing this and you're doing it successfully so keep up the awesome work at you. Know are the people in this country are depending on what you do appreciate absolutely so getting close to the end here Sonia. Let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in the business of medicine in social determinants of health. So I've got four questions for you. Lightening Round style followed by a favorite book. You ready all right. What's the best way to improve? Healthcare outcomes say assume that you don't have all the answers there's really deep wisdom issues in as patients told me social tremendous for them are just an abstract concept or new terms of the sector or their lips realities. What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid? I would say that there are ways to take existing work and build upon them in bridge across them rather than assuming that all innovation has to be brand new out of the box or that we have to be stuck in the old West has seen amazing things happen when people look at or grams. Pilots haven't placed already in just think about how it can be tweaked and customized APP for a different Shannon differ frontier health. Care I do you stay relevant despite constant change the biggest thing I would say is to listen. There are so many changing. Hartson pieces of healthcare. I think that it can feel really overwhelming at times but I found that in organizations A time to check in with their employees with their communities of patients with partners at they're working on a variety of Franson. Think about what it may look like to. Really of envision helped together even of it sounds kind of abstract pie in the sky. There are ways to do that are truly with h words in Brooklyn practice and making things more efficient engine strategic and so you're listening and in holding that its own. Space can be huge What's one area of Focus that drives everything in your organization? Dan Organization when they were really focused on that that microscope does a great job is thinking about what our true north is rates of. What is the ultimate out from? Envision healthcare incur network with our health systems driving towards that end of the day. This is about healthy in writing community so for not making decisions that are Words that at and were were not sticking to our monster. Would you recommend to the listeners? What I really love is the American healthcare paradox. Written by at Bradley's now President Faster and Lawrence Taylor student. Who's working with her at the time and it does a great job. Really examining this paradox. Why is health care in the US so expensive and yet our health outcomes still aren't where we want them to be in they do a great comparative analysis of our countries? And looking at not just you know the difference in how we spend healthcare dollars versus social services dollars but water the attitudes and the beliefs in the norms under a lot of that discrepancy in ending. And so I think it's an amazing thing to read if you're inside of healthcare sector to really kind of understand how it is that the To the reality of the work we do today beautiful. What a great book recommendation. Definitely one that I'll be checking out so folks if you WANNA linked to that book a link to the democracy Organization that signs apart of Goto outcomes rocket dot health slash. Sarkar as an Sony. You'll find all of our show notes there as well as a full transcript of our discussion. This has been a blast Sonia. I'd love if you could just share a closing thought with the listeners. And the best place where they could follow you or get in touch with you. Great so one of the things that I've been thinking a lot about recently. Is the conversation around medical care. I think particularly feel really complicated is it? It's very much about. How do we spend her dollars? And how to be believed that dollar SH- than create which investment for us. But one of the things that I found is that when you add in addition to medical treatment also talked to patients their families in their communities that what helped truly encompasses conversation opens. These really interesting ways. The my former boss Onis founder. Merida's health leads at recently launched a health initiative which is looking at the places where we can come together nationally around health regardless of political affiliation. It turns out that when you define how stability thrive is ability to survive for your family and have food or shelter. Job Americans actually agree on a lot more than they might ask. So that gives me hope and get something that we can all definitely investment time in Blazer engaging with Ma that nods a great reminder so the Listener Sonia Bad Yeah. Health is is actually deeper and more simpler. It starts with the vitality and health of communities Financial Health as well wellness So so really appreciate that and what would be the best place for folks to follow you or or get in touch yet. They can get in touch with me. My email which is S. A. R. K. A. R. THREE AT J H U Dot Edu forward to afflicting murals outstanding sunny. Thanks again for spending time with us. We really appreciate it. And thanks for listening to the outcomes rocket. Podcast be sure to visit us on the web at. Www DOT outcomes rocket dot com for the show notes resources inspiration and so much more.
We Asked Public Health Experts How Theyre Planning For A Safe Thanksgiving
"Thanksgiving will be a challenge for all of us this year. How can we celebrate the holiday safely and avoid spreading the coronavirus. We wondered local doctors and public health experts. Were doing to prepare for the holiday next week so we asked a few of them. How they're thanksgiving plans are changing this year. The first person we spoke to is dr ernest. Carter who leads. The prince george's county health department. The county in maryland has been hit. The hardest by the virus and carter has been a prominent voice in the fight against the spread. Thanksgiving is about love. And when i see my daughter's on zone a weather hugging and kissing him the love hasn't changed a bit. Carter says he and his family usually celebrate thanksgiving with their two adult daughters. But this year they're planning to celebrate virtually in so. I don't want anybody to be depressed. This thanksgiving we're going to have a time when we can get back and we can do the hugs and kisses and everything else out there right now. I'll be the first one to do it. Because i love kissing my daughter's than seeing them but that's coming but that doesn't diminish all the love we have to give to each other. Then there's dr gloria adult again. Su who directs the fairfax county health department. She usually spends thanksgiving in ghana with family and close friends. Not this year. She plans to stay home and celebrate with her brother. Who is visiting from ghana. Thanksgiving it for me is a combination of ghanaian dishes. That i love as well as Pecan pie which. I learned to make a healthy medical school. I don't even know if i'll do all of that don't again. Sue has modest aims for this year's. Thanks giving celebration kind of exhausted this year. I'm just thankful to be alive. I'm just thankful that everyone in my family is alive and is doing well. And i think that's enough for this year. Dr alleged kalaiana directly horrendo- county health department. He and his family usually visit his parents in new york for thanksgiving this year. He says he intends to stay home. And celebrate with the family lives with especially now that the centers for disease control and prevention urged people not to travel for the holiday this year kellyanne rahman says it will be a much smaller celebration than usual. Biggest thing is that we will get through this and part of it is focusing on what we can have and how we can are in this really challenging time. Try to celebrate what we can have And hopefully those of us who are who are can celebrate. Our life is taking a toll on many families. So looking at the positives always helps me. Dr travis gales is montgomery county's leading public health official. He's originally from southern virginia and usually gets together with his large extended family from virginia and north carolina for thanksgiving but with cases rising across the us. He's gonna miss being with his family this year last year. My remaining two grandparents both passed away and as i get older i appreciate in value. Dane able to get together with family and holidays settings and celebratory settings as opposed to the only time you get to see them as you know at a funeral or someone sick and so i miss those opportunities being able to get together and celebrate together. Visit each other space. Both in sense of emotional connection Physical proximity gail says on a lighter note. He's going to miss the southern thanksgiving cooking. I'll certainly miss the food growing up in the south. You ever very traditional southern thanksgiving ham. Turkey chen collard greens. Green beans sweet potatoes. Macaroni and cheese. Mothers specialty's corn pudding. It's it's a spread of food. I don't eat on a regular basis. That myself on thanksgiving christmas. His advice for planning your own pandemic thanksgiving is to be creative. I would encourage folks to think outside the box and be creative about how to still connect and the absence of the physical sense. You know there are lots of great virtual tools that allow us to still be connected. Even if we're not physically there dr lena. When is a visiting professor at george washington university school of public health and the former commissioner of the baltimore city health department. When's family is spread across the globe with international travel being off limits. She says she doesn't know when her family will be able to reunite she still coming to grips with that especially with the recent addition to the family. We have a new baby. It's not exactly something that's new. I in or something something. That's up tradition over time but rather we have a baby who is almost seven months old. Who has not met her grandparents. My father lives in vancouver. My husband's family lives in johannesburg south africa. It's just not right. It's just practical for us to see one another. I mean we are. We're all very sad about this but we would feel so much worse. If people came to visit us and then it got ill and perhaps even died as result of something that we could have held off for another year while the centers for disease control and prevention have advised people not to travel for the holiday. When says she doesn't consider getting on a plane completely out of the question. I personally would feel comfortable getting on a plane I would make sure that the airline is one that follows basque masquerading precautions. symptom checking. I think testing can help as well. I'm less concerned about the flight. But i am very concerned about what people are doing before and after the flight as in the concern is not that they got exposed on the plane coming over. The concern is that they were engaged in other high risk activities before so they went to bars or restaurants. They also saw other friends then. They came to another area and gathered indoors with another family and then spread it to that family. That's why i'm concerned about. That was dr leana. Wen speaking with wmu's domini maria manetti who also spoke with the other doctors in this story regional news coverage from wmu. Eighty eight five is made possible through listener support. You can join with your contribution at w. a. m. u. dot org. Click the donate button and thanks.
Episode 7: Beth
"Welcome to what should I do with my life figuring it out from those who seemed to have it all figured out. I'm your host Stephanie Horwitz. When's the last time you stopped and ask yourself, what am I doing with my life? Why am I doing this Dr in like this? Join me as we hear the inspiring stories of real people to find out what they did and are doing with their lives. Are they satisfied? Would they have done anything differently? Maybe these stories we will figure out how to bring more meaning and passion in our day to day. Hi Everyone. Thanks for joining me. Today. We have a great episode with the Amazing Beth cone. Converse who was a practitioner of traditional Chinese medicine. While dealing with migraine headaches in her twenty s, Beth turned to acupuncture treatment to help herself, which ultimately sparked her interest and passion in Chinese medicine. In this episode Beth gives us the One on one on acupuncture discusses the unique challenges of working in field that is less culturally valued in America and chairs what led her to open up her own practice. She's the only person I would willingly allowed to stick me with needles. She's talented empathetic and a true healer. So without further ado here is Beth. Hi Bath. Hi Good. Morning Stephanie How are you? I'm doing great. How are you doing in? Israel? It's good. It's very hot. It's kind of like Tel Aviv knew it was August and just? Behaved like August I. Think we should just dive in. Felt Great. Though in one sentence can you just tell me what you do S I am a practitioner of traditional Chinese medicine. So that means I practice using acupuncture therapy Chinese remedies I counsel patients on Diet and lifestyle changes so that they can get the health and wellness benefits that they're looking for. I. Just WanNa Know How did you know this was something you wanted to do when did you realize this was zero path. I was a little bit of a late starter. I in in college I was political science and I thought I might be an attorney and sort of got to the end of that and went this doesn't feel like me. So after I graduated, I did a number of different jobs in my early twenties and you know a lot of them were sort of marketing related and PR. I'm definitely a people person and so I knew I enjoy those type of things and ended up When I left Maryland, I was twenty two and I relocated. To San Diego and in San Diego I started to do some different things there and one to another I grew up also I had migraine headaches. So I was always looking for how do I help myself? How do I find solutions for myself and didn't really want to just medicate I, felt like with that with Migraines you feel very on you know on powerful. So I wanted something to give me more power and so if I could figure out how to prevent them, I would feel better and You know in that realm too so I ended up finding it that way to help myself, and then really was interested in. I. Went and sat in on classes when I was considering my acupuncture training, which was I was at age twenty already and and found it, and then once I. Did I was like this this really feels like to be privileged as the guy that I saw on Sandiego booking back. Oh my gosh technique was. Horrible he painful. It was awful and I I gosh. My Really GonNa do this you know and I realize now just based on the feedback I, get from my patients that very different. There are so many different styles of how you treat how you're trained and on. So it is a little amazing that I still chose the profession in spite of a little bit of my not. Great. Experience Women. But I like that it it encompasses everything I like that you really look at the whole person and you individualized care plans for that person it is one-size-fits-all. You do a few different things acupuncture and cupping and herbs. Do you have a favorite I mean what is your favorite method of treatment there? Really isn't I mean I like Chinese medicine because you can incorporate all vet people don't always need all of it. You know I have a lot of patients that just come for the acupuncture and I knew somebody work or or You know some people I do a little bit of the acupuncture and we get them on some. Herbs I had a really interesting experience part of my my history and my work history with acupuncture as lived in New York City for two and a half years, and I worked in an environment was this sort of integrative medicine they called it but it was more it was all acupuncture. So it was really at the time it was people who had no fault insurance and they were really kind of popular pain clinics that way. So I didn't have the opportunity was there to practice any medicine. So was all acupuncture it was very high volume clinics. So I would see anywhere from twenty three to twenty nine patients a day. Hours extremely factory style and not at again something I learned about how do I wanNA practice and it was not my thing. So I after doing that for a couple years I went you know I really enjoy a miss the herbals and miss the other lifestyle things I. You know I was basically just a technician putting needles in taking needles out and that was it. I didn't have to do a lot I was an integrative setting because it. Was a desire office and they had a Chiropractor, they had a physical therapist and a massage therapist, and so the desire trysts, who's an MD would put together a cure plan. You know for all of us to treat this person and so it was multidisciplinary care which was great. But I missed a big chunk of the Madison that I know how to use, and so after that I said, you know I, I don't want to practice that way anymore. So it was. It's so funny. You say that because you have your own practice which will talk about an bit but I know that I went to you the first time before I moved here when I was very stressed I was having terrible migraines and my experience was really the opposite of what you just about the factory line I came in. You were so happy to see me your dog. was there. It smelled amazing. There were snacks offered me something to drink. It was so calming. I like cried during. Acupuncture I during everything it was a release in it felt amazing. So first of all I think you do an amazing job of helping your patients feel seen and heard. So many questions I'm overwhelmed right now but for the people who maybe don't know, can you just talk a bit about how acupuncture works and we can talk about any of the different methods but let's take acupuncture. What kind of patients do you see what are their symptoms? Sure. Yeah. I like to start a little bit further back and just say the traditional Chinese medicines been around for over five thousand years specifically acupuncture herbal therapies also have a very long history and having said that we really also currently bringing. Them into modern medicine. We're using them a little differently than how they may you know back in ancient China. So acupuncture in and of itself is using energy systems in the body that we call Meridians and these energy systems have names that are similar to our western Oregon's they have some of the same functions and sometimes they don't have the exact match. So when I say somebody as a problem with their liver Meridian, it doesn't mean neighbor problem with their Western Oregon liver. It's other things that we're looking at overall. And so the acupuncture itself, it releases biochemical change in the bodies. When we put the acupuncture needles in, there is a change in the nervous system and the there's messaging from the brain to the body to release natural chemicals, called neurotransmitters, and their caroline's and endorphins said the lines or your pain relieving pain changing chemicals that are produced, and then the endorphins or your relaxation chemicals. So endorphins also. Produce when you laugh when you exercise when you eat chocolate when you fall in love, they're all or endorphin producing. So acupunctures that way as well. So there is a bio chemical, Michael Change and they have studied that throughout Pathak medicine and that's why patients are so surprised at how physically they just feel. So different after they feel relaxed as you mentioned, it's thank you for sharing your experience because. It I sometimes can explain what's going to happen for people with their release of things and peeling the layers of not just you know emotional but physiological and energetic healing changes, and it is very rooted in biochemistry with the neurotransmitters but there is a spiritual energetic part of it, but I think people experience and that's hard to. Really. Always articulate. Yes and I know I remember feeling. You're the only person by the way I would ever willingly all put needles. Needles exactly. Do I don't give me shots don't give blood blood work on my gosh. I'm terrible but acupuncture, it's just different. It's and it's finding. Out, this way felt this. It was like a Buzz I've felt yet I'm saying over me, but it was very calming. That's your own biochemistry. That's the best part about it is that we're reawakening our own healing potential One of my sort of moral pet peeve questions as will want people find out what I do they're like, does it work right to Giggle at first because I'm like why been doing it twenty years I'm kind of hoping it does somewhere along the line or maybe I mo slow learner and I'm I don't know maybe I need a new profession but. I always say go back and has a very long history and it is like any other medical intervention. It's going to be some people who found find it fantastic, and they're really going to get changes. There's some people who would ever they're coming in for it may not help people have never tried acupuncture and they're coming for the first time they have many of the same concerns that you had. That I had is it GonNa hurt what's it gonNa feel like I can't believe I'm going to if I lay here for twenty minutes to a half hour with needles all over my body. But when I explained sort of you know the biochemical piece people are okay and then when I tell them really to be honest the gauge of the needle so thin they're very, very tiny file for needles. and. They're not hollow like when you have blood were taken or you're getting a shot, you know those needles are much thicker hypodermic needles. So you know when I try to explain it sometimes, it feels like a little pinch. Sometimes, you feel anything at all and once I start I could talk for an hour but if you're nervous or nervous does have to start and then once I put one or two in there like that's it usually. So there are people over the course of my twenty years and it has not helped. You know we see. Maybe, I did three to five sessions and for certain pain syndromes or certain constitutional things going on with them. But overall, we see a lot of benefit I wouldn't continue to do this. If I didn't find that there were really enough you know support and change for that person and sometimes you know we have to work as a team I can only you know I'm a conduit. So I I'm providing treatment and I'm trying to give information and education but some of the changes have to happen at the person's where where they you know how they live. Things how they live what they're doing in their lives and and a little bit of some regular acupuncture starts to change some of that patterning you know and and again we're looking at. The central nervous system that starts to calm and get quiet and get center, and from there people find they can really think much better and they can operate much better in their lives. So anyway, I need you to move in with me. You'll be home. So I'll see you when you come home my God I need it. I read that you've worked with those who are dealing with addiction and recovery breast cancer patients those after nine eleven. Can you talk about some of those experiences and what was like pretty amazing to see some of it on when I lived in New York City I did a program. It was through Nada, which is the National Association for Detox Acupuncture. It was created by a physician who I believe he was a psychotherapist Dr Michael. Smith. he recently passed away a couple of years. Ago But he found when he incorporated just the ear acupuncture, there were a few specific points into addiction recovery programs that he found. Patients had less recidivism back to using less and they were able to cope more when they went back into their lives and some of them were actually mandated to go into these treatment programs. The actual agriculture was always up to them as voluntary. But you could physically see the change in people and I had that one experience when I lived in New York I decided to get this just extra certification training and it was amazing I I saw one lady came in and she was angry and she just had a terrible morning and she was pissed and she disappointed at somebody and they said all right come to my acupuncture and he put a few needles in and she sat there for no thirty forty, five minutes. And when he came and took him out, she walked out she said, okay bye, everybody have a good day I never would have believed it I'm and I was like this woman was late horrid coming in and she was totally different going out the work that I've done it was through Henry Ford and I was lucky enough to be part of a study and it was breast cancer patients who had been recovery and were onto mocks offen-, which is a a medication that's a an estrogen blocker and they were experiencing hot flashes. So the study was actually comparing patients on the. Tacoma Fan and those who who, who did or didn't have acupuncture was a comparison and it was it was published in the Journal of Clinical Oncology, which is really cool and we just looked at what are their quality what's the quality of life? You know how much better are the flashes over the course did acupuncture twice a week for eight weeks and then once a week for four. So it was a total twelve weeks study and the change was fantastic. People said not only my flashes less less intense. The rule of them I slept better I felt better. People said, my mood was bother. All kinds of things? You know the the irritation that they might have felt with their family members of their kids. Was a lot less. So you know again, it was sort of taking just this really simple madison and applying it in that way in finding that patients can see such a big change when their nervous systems are calmer I lived in New York for September eleventh and my good friend and I were like, what can we do I? Mean this was really within the first twenty four hours and they didn't really know what was happening and so they set up a big center for thought was recovery. You know rescue and help for people at the Jacob Javits Center there, which is a big convention center. And they asked for people who WanNa who had any kind of healing modalities I think to help out. So my friend and I, we did an off a shift. We didn't offer twenty, four hour shift overnight shift sorry, and Unfortunately you know it was it was tough it. We were actually treating the rescue workers. So people that were out digging through all the rubble and stuff and they were on, they were working twenty four hours. They were just exhaustion and we did I unfortunately was unable to do one shift with that because I ended up getting a little cold and I got laryngitis and I said, I can't go back and treat these people if I am sick you know. So but my friend and I they were so appreciative and she actually she and I decided to treat together. So we did a combination of acupuncture and bodywork on on all of these these people that were that were doing rescue recovery. That's amazing and you can really see. How your work and you and what you're doing is really affecting people. Do you think that's like your biggest motivator? That's one hundred percent. One of my struggles I feel is that You are this culture American culture. I should say doesn't really value or respect what I do that much you know and I think it's starting to change. Obviously I'm not a physician, but I have prided myself and really understanding a lot about Western medicine. So I can support my patients in their journeys without or recommend things to them so we can allow bigger. Problems than I can ask them can you see your doctor and get these tests? Make sure you don't have in this particular problem and you know But that's part of why I've gone back to get my doctorate because I'm getting a lot more bad information that wasn't covered when I graduated over twenty years ago. But I wish we were a little bit more. Live, swell I love you. It seems more widespread. People seem more open to acupuncture they seem more open to. Working with herbs. Why do you think where do you think there's that shift that people are more open? Is that this wellness movement? What is it I? Boy with an had to answer a one hundred percent. I always know I'm going to tell you I mean working at Henry Ford had a lot of positives when I was there in Integrative Medicine Center, and it was an exciting job opportunity was a fulltime job with benefits. But I always felt a little like a round peg in a square hole they we were all of the services that we practiced at our integrative division none of them were covered by insurance. So already that sort of separates us from a very allopathic, very conservative health system that Henry Ford was, and still is i. feel there needs to be a movement to really connect practitioners to each other. So for me to reach out to medical doctors and explain what I do and how I do it, and how it can compliment what they're doing. It's not an awesome. It's really a how can we as a whole help this person to? A Better life now in life and he'll and help themselves inspire them to heal themselves I think there's a huge movement. Lot Lotta people in the world now don't WanNa take as many medications a think. Physicians unfortunately because of insurance they're up against a wall and they have to they have to see more patients to make the same money and because of that, they have very little time with patients. Man There's a frustration from the patient side. I've said, have you talked to your doctor about this? Well, he's always just pushing medicine or he's only in the room with me for five minutes. I really can't get to this and. So I see it from both sides and I do feel that's part of why there's been a shift with wellness. There's been a shift with let's get the patient involved in their own healthcare I think back in the day, you would go and whatever your doctor Said told you to do no matter why you didn't question you didn't you know. So if you were on five medicines and that was it but and you felt terrible. Because each medicine gave you more side effects and you weren't really getting to the root of things and now I feel more a part of the process eight. Now they're saying, no wait will is there stuff I should be doing like Chevy eating differently should I be doing these exercises? Would you think I should be doing? Are there herbs I can take because I would like to maybe not take as much insulin I would like to. Not, take. These anxiety medicines I would like to have waste you know and meditation and Calming. So many things have have really exploded in terms of wellness, and so I do think that's a reason why people are looking for more support systems from what is non allopathic you know. and. I might be a little different if you. If you talked to a lot of a lot of practitioners in California, they they get to be sort of primary care so they can order labs and things and. You know they they their own entity here in Michigan. I can't do some of those things. It's not within the scope of practice in the state. So I liked to have those relationships with physicians and I liked to understand how I can ask the patient. You know I really want you to was less last time. You had these labs checked it's been a year and a half I think you need to go back and let's just see what your baselines are and then we'll know when we're incorporating into your treatment plan, how's it working and you can go back and three to six months and get your blood drawn and see if you're a one C has. Improved you know at Home I. Want you to try to do some of these exercises. So you really there's more engagement with the patient in their own health journeys to I think some of that's changing truly we need all of it. You know if you're in an accident, right don't come to meet 'cause 'cause you heard right now you need to go and you need to get x-rays and you know so I feel like i. think that's a little bit of a challenge for some Western doctors they say room you know why don't understand acupuncture I don't know how it works. It hasn't been proven to work and studies and research, which is not true anymore. Know but I feel like a really good doctor and a really smart doctor is one that says you know I mean I know how to do and I may not understand but I have some I've had some patients with that had great success with it. Why don't we have you tried that for a little bit of time and let me know if that patient of there's comes and they try it that Dr looks fantastic even though they weren't the one to give a pill or two you know they thought outside their box and they went let me think about some other. Things. That might help you and that patient will be super happy and they will. They will have even increased trust in that practitioner. So I feel like all of us, we all take an oath to do no harm you know and we all I in my opinion. If you go into medicine, you are going to help people. So you know having said that I don't think we should shut any doors I think we need to sort of be open and even a physician can learn and understand about things. They don't have to practice acupuncture or practice Chiropractic rightous what it is but. I believe as a primary person. You know it helped their patient. They should understand some things and be willing and open when their patients, what do you think should I try acupuncture? I believe that physician to say you know that's not a bad idea. Hey, you know you've had this neck pain for quite a while. You did not. You didn't have help medicines weren't great. Why not try it? Let me know how it goes right and so I feel like we all have to be open to that, but it makes so much sense. It really is the holistic approach where you're attacking it from all the angles. So you the best chance of success and I wish we would consider somebody's quote unquote alternative things before we spend money on surgery or you have a patient, go for three rounds of physical therapy and they keep saying they're worse not. Better. Did you ever think you would have your own practice and how did this happen? What never fired you to open up your own practice? Your never my whole family is Western medicine. My Mom was an R. N. and she went she was she was not on the medicine side she went into administrative. So she was actually out in the community she worked for the Baltimore City Health Department, and she was an educator about high blood pressure and she would go into different communities and educate and teach about how they can learn to a monitor their pressures take their own pressures, etc. My grandfather was an Obgyn he delivered over five thousand babies in his career. All of my aunts and uncles are in medicine even one of my uncles through two out of his three kids are in medicine. So it's all it was all western and I think looking back I was thinking about why didn't I pick that route one of them I wasn't really drawn to it but I think secondly, honestly back then I didn't have confidence in myself I didn't really think I could do medical school and I was a little nervous as I mentioned the you know I had migraine headaches so I thought. I can't be up all night like they do when they're residents I can't have that weird schedule. So I didn't really trust in myself. I didn't really think that I had the confidence. You know sometimes that at points in my career I thought. Maybe I could have done that could have been a physician and then gone and studied this and had both things or become a nurse and on that, and only because of that, I wish our culture would accept us more. You know I thought Gosh if I had that. Western medical fit in the box, and then I added the out of the box. I would really cover everything and you know at this point I'm fifty three I'm not going to. Do that. But my doctoral program I think is going to help me also have a little bit more in terms of how our society looks at at education and training and people are surprised when they find out what my training has been even my master's degree, and then now that I'm in a doctoral program, that's that's a huge thing. I never knew that was the extent of the trainee. Wow you for your masters, right? Yes I do and that's It yeah. Yeah. It's you got. There it is and actually just before I. started my doctoral program. Funny enough. I just completed a four-month I did a medical cannabis certification sort of trying to share where to CBD fit in where most of my patients don't really want the THC products right now mom and illustrates a patient who has cancer on the really suffering I didn't think I was really going to do my own practice I really haven't done it everything I've done has been more part of a big group, and then I was really unhappy at Henry Ford. There was a lot of administrative stuff going on and I would go and treatment rooms and cry like just miserable and I, said Is it am I done with Chinese medicine like I remember saying. Should I maybe look into. Looked into a PA program and I thought maybe shy I go and be like a Western person and and then I realized it was the environment not what I was practicing. So when I Talk to my husband about it and know we looked at the insurance piece everything and I decided no I think I gotta leave. I can't stay working here anymore like I wasn't feeling healthy anymore and when I gave my notice and laughed, you know it was very freeing because as part of a Western medical system that was so conservative there was a lot of know that you can't do this. No, we can't do that. We can't do that. When my practice. Now, if you said me, I'm here on Saturday I saw Mitch at the office. If you need a specific herb or you need some supplements all ordering for you, you know there is no restriction and I like that I like being able to do what I need to do I need to do it for my patients. So it was very free and is scary. I didn't want to borrow a dollar for my husband I'm one of. To know what to do while you know funny enough my colleague. Now she had already been in a part time private practice and part time at she was at Beaumont and I said I'm leaving all of Henry Ford and I'm GonNa put all my eggs in this basket. I'm scared when she said you'll be able to do it. Don't worry you'll be able to do it and she was right. You know I am not. That is to be honest business be even better if I had a really good business pardon me. I'm more emotional. So I'm not the one that's really good I don't have all my patients in a in a in a spreadsheet. Donald. Send out every. I'm super not organized like that at all. I do sort of a personal thing. You know like new patient right him a little. It was great to meet you today looking forward to helping your care and I mail it so. Still a little old school with that stall and I haven't used it but it's worked for me. I've never needed to advertise and. I feel like. I again from my past experience I don't WanNa. See Fifteen people a day. You know I don't want that high volume clinic. So you trade it I think you trade off you know that one to one experience and how how you just shared how you felt when you were in our office. That's what we want people to feel. We don't WanNa feel like we didn't spend time or it was a little factory was you know you? Day forever as what everybody says, and you know it's really funny. They come in the door right away. And they're like, oh my gosh, I'm already feeling like chilling. Yes like you haven't seen anything yet. They come back in the room and that's what we want. We want to be like a little microcosm away from the craziness of the world and you know. I've learned a lot of things. To people that have influenced the first of all, my grandfather said to me he saw special called healing and the mind it was by Bill Moyers back in the day and I was just starting acupuncture school and he said to me I. Think you're onto something because this special was like on TV he had on a VHS. And he sent it to me I want you to watch us. And it was all about thinking about outside of what we know about medicine. So my grandfather gave me like his thumbs up, which was super important for me my mom great advice. She gave me which I don't know. It would really still be applicable in today's world. But when I was moving to San Diego before I had decided anything about acupuncture school. I was interested in being hotel management and marketing, and often she said, you know what I think you should do informational interviewing Michael, what's that she's like. Well, you look at what Inter shazier interested you want to do this she said you look at maybe different hotels I was coming out for a visit to San Diego and she said send them a letter ahead and explain. That you're going to be there and that you're interested in that industry, could they meet with you for fifteen to twenty minutes and share their story she said everybody loves to talk about their story race. So that's exactly what I did and I met with like four or five different sales managers of different hotels and when I came back I wrote the old school. Thank you know. And I was moving to San Diego in about two weeks or three weeks after that. And one of the managers had his assistant call me an offer me a job that they had and I said and I said, well, I'll be there in two weeks and she said Yep, he really would like to start an I I said to myself what I asked Triangle Did He had other applicants like that were local and she goes Oh yeah. But he really was impressed with you and he really liked you might you and so he just he when the position came open he thought of you. So I moved to San Diego and that's was my first job in San Diego at the Marriott Twin Towers in downtown. San? Diego I was an Executive Meeting Management Assistant, and that's kind of how I started in San Diego. But you know so my mom taught me that you know you just have to do things a little differently and connect with people and they will remember you I think your your personal touch of writing the thank you notes it doesn't matter. Then now I mean especially now 'cause that hardly exists anymore. Memorable it makes people feel like you care and the other person who moved me in the direction of energy. when I was in San Diego my step mom that I ended up. Then I moved there with my mom and half sister on her second husband she married my dad he passed away and she married Paul Brenner and he is an md. He's to be an Obgyn and his day, and he had this crazy change in his trajectory and he ended up leaving Western medicine. And becoming like a therapist and energy healer man threw him when I moved to San Diego I got even more sort of reinforcement guidance about energy medicines and how it's possible and how it's different from the way we typically think of medicine and healing. So he was a big influence for me to and learning from him, and then I started studying essential oils and just sort of. was guiding me in that direction. You know it's an interesting thing that you know I was so excited when you asked me to his guy I, never think would want to know my story like it's kind of funny. and. Then when I started telling my story, I'm like you have been through some things you have learned over the. Of things and especially people who think they should be doing something just like you said, oh I should be doing westernized more commonly accepted kind of Medicine Yeah and. You went for something else and not only did you just go for something else you are excelling you started a practice so you're doing the doctoral program now. So what inspired you to do that and what tools are you hoping to get day? Will it's through my school in San Diego so it's an all online program and They came out with it probably close to five years ago in the beginning I just thought maybe they didn't have all the you know all their stuff worked out on the little things, and so I thought maybe I'll wait a little bit. and. I did this the medical, the medical cannabis certificate and I worked really hard on that and unfortunately was kind of disappointed by the the content we were the first group of students to go through that. And I had a lot to say about that, and then I started looking into the into the near the curriculum and I feel number one that a lot of the younger students are coming out with their doctoral degrees already. So. You know that will put them a leg above where I was twenty years ago when I came out with my master's degree and my school has changed used to be Pacific College of Rental Medicine and now it's specific college of Health and Health and sciences I think they call it health sciences so they're branching out and for me as a practitioner. I want to continue to really learn and I want a lot of the content so far has not been stuff that I had ever been taught back in the day that I've just learned myself along the way and I'm looking ahead I. I'm fifty three. I would like perhaps teaching and as things get more evolved in university levels and other other institutions. I may not want to be all clinical. So when as I moved towards sort of semi retirement and then retirement I might WanNa work just two three days a week in the clinic and maybe teach a class or two it does get tiring to practice on. All the time and carrying only just caring for people all the time, and so I thought you know I would love to teach I what I love to lecture. I haven't done much of that. Since I've been in practice, you know all my own because it means taking time out of the clinical schedule. So I haven't Don KNAPP by I used to lecture all the time at Henry, Ford to physicians on nurses and people and other modalities and I love it and also to the community. So it I do believe I Come alive in front of an audience I might be scared to death and feel sick before I get on there. But then once I, start totally I I'm in my land in my own. So me too. I feel very great. This guy can forehand and then it's like I'm alive. Know my mom told me the one time. I had to talk to a huge group of doctors at Henry Ford and I was super excited. But I was new there. I. Was New in a new staff person and everything and I was speaking with My one of my co directors he he's. He's a PhD in on Neuro Science and he basically does think he knows everything on the planet but. But I was so scared and I thought Oh my God how am I going to get through this? Like my stomach was killing me and and my mom said that I before you know just remember this when you even though you're talking to doctors, they don't know what you know about your profession and your career and what you've done over these years. So you are the smartest person in that room about your topic. So, stop I used to lecture wanting people to believe me wanting people to know that it's authentic and that it works and trying to convince people have completely given up early, and so now I just lecture to enjoy and inform and kind of educate and I really have less connection to whether they believe me or not or whether they are a fan of acupuncture you know people you meet him I had that. I hated it. It didn't work from everyone has are Indian and they're going to give it exactly I said well, I'm sorry it didn't work for you. You know I I don't know about what kind of care plan you have but I'm more than happy if you're still having some problems come, you know, let me give it a try and see if I can support you but I do try to connect with them. With language that they would understand. Right. So if I'm talking to a Chinese medicine audience, our verbiage, our vocabulary in our medicine is totally different. When I'm speaking to a West Medical Group, I need to bridge the gap I needed to have them understand. What our vocabulary means in their terms so that it doesn't sound so Wacko duty and I'm out in the world like, what are you talking about Chee Janda and verbiage totally once you connect they're like, oh, that's what that means old. That's how they approach that definitely and something I wanted to bring up by the way. Before you said, you know can be really exhausting to see patients every day I wanted to know what are some of the biggest challenges in your work right now. Yeah, it you know when Kobe, for started, because there was such lack of information we did close our office for a few weeks when we decided to come back, it was mostly because we really felt that we could protect others and ourselves very well. But yet, we had a lot of good information for people and really the stress levels and the nervousness and fear not to mention you know people wanting to know. Can I do anything to help my own immunity and in Western medicine? Really don't have what But when we started back into our clinic, we my colleague I decided to work opposite days. We took down volume of patients instead of a patient every half hour were pretty much seeing one and our were starting now to get back up but we are masking and were wiping and we're just you know really being safe. But we felt sad because we know that our medicine helped so much with the nervous system and we made a now more than ever and we were like I'm so sorry you know what I had. A patient couldn't see for a couple of months and she's a patient with cancer and you know she just she came back in and she had a really rough few months and she said to me and I realized not being here for those few months like this was the only place I felt like I was healing at all. And I felt sad you know and I said I'm sorry I couldn't have been here right in the beginning. But now it's safe and I feel comfortable treating you and knowing that you'll be safe and that's what it's about respecting. Everybody's you know where they are in meeting people where they are and I still have a lot of patience that not a lot but he handled it won't come back yet. You know because they're still concerned and that's okay. everybody has to decide what their comfort level is for this but you know me and if patients don't WanNa come in I'm happy to zoom or facetime and say what's happening for you. Okay. Yeah you need some herbs. Yup, we'll go ahead. You can just only them outside the office. We can pay the phone you can pay pal me whatever, and they can still get with the need you know or they're like I'm just nervous I feel weird all the time and they're not ready to come have acupuncture can recommend recommend supplements So An and recommend meditation techniques or exercise just different things you know how what can they do and so we talk over the phone and you know or assume call and that has been good. It's hard to tell him Edison, really with my. Medicine because as you know, it's so experiential grant like yours come as a needle right here. On away from the screen, exactly that's not can't buy for the piece of supplements or I'm so stressed out what can I do? You know there's a lot of tools that I can try to share with them that they can do at home. We all need support in different ways and you tell myself you know I had a lot of stress with my dogs health and you know and and being out of work for a few weeks knowing that I can't help other people so I have to sort of turn that on myself. And things for myself. I've stopped saying the patients and they come in how are you? Because it's just too loaded and I saw I saw them. You know how let come back. Let's see how we can help support things shifting for you what's happening you know and they just tell me these things. So we find we I'm trying to change again we're going back verbiage, right I'm trying to change. My choice of words and so that they feel like I'm there but we don't all talk over and over about the same things that have been very depressing. You know people people now feel so isolated and so even the hands on you know doing the body work at the end and doing warming mock sides. So work-sharing and it kind of Peop- It gives brings people back into their bodies and back into their center, and then they're like, oh, can that was good. All right I can yeah I think I can move forward from here you know is really cute. One of my patients have seen for a long time he just came in and I hadn't seen him since the end of January he has a lot of physical problems and he does live s senior place and they were in lockdown. So he finally came in and he's like this is this I above Blah Blah you know and he had some he had prostate cancer. So he had treatments for that and last six months and So I said okay, we're going to turn the clock back here. I said what we're going to do here I said, would you like to be twenty six again? Would you like to feel like you're twenty six or do you want to maybe go for thirty two at the end of three men and he's like? Maybe, thirty as I said, I don't know if I want to go back into my twenties either. So we do this treatment and it comes out to the front desk and I could just tell his we call the Hsien, the spirit you know his eyes looked clearer. He looked happier looked lighter and I said, how are things feeling of the really good. I go case. So we what age maybe forty five he goes I don't know because I feel so good. I feel like I'm six and I said well six I can't let you leave you can't drive until you're sixteen I said you need to at least be sixteen fuel sixteen when you walk out the door by green light your drive at age six. You started a practice and getting the doctoral degree now in your thriving, and you said there was a really a crisis moment before all this happened where you weren't happy in your previous place of work and it wasn't aligning with. Your values and your you wearing what you wanted to do so. A A. Lot of people in that situation and I just WanNa know what would you tell people who wanna throw in their hat? I'll tell you one thing that I did when I was feeling that way is there was a book called what color is your power shoot? It's an old book about rate figuring out what you're good at what you like. And I even though again, I'm a little old school that way but I tell you like me to get that book and start to to sort of look and say. Well you know it's great and soak dislike, and now even in today's environment, there's even more opportunities and possibilities right with all the online and working from distance working and all that but to sort of reconnect with that part of you I, think people stay in things that they're not happy with because of finances sometimes or because of pressure family pressure or whatever it is. I had great support. You know my mom's like whatever you want to. She would support me if I wanted to go back to school I was married at the time and I was talking to Dan about it and he said what you know whatever you want and I had to really get clear was I-. Purchasing Chinese medicine period, or was I unhappy because of where I was practicing and it turned out that was the issue. So by you know a lot of people, I'm not using my undergraduate degree at all but you know it was it was a stepping stone to learn about myself that I didn't want to be an attorney that wasn't really my thing. So I would just have people try to do a little bit more internal searching like that and use tools you know the Briggs Myers testing for personality traits or all these Kinda things that have been around a long time. And and really get clear without think one challenge with online stuff is always at everybody's comparing themselves. It looks like somebody's life is better than theirs and unfortunately it's not usually the case it's what we're putting out as a front because you know, and then there are some people that are very real online too. But I think now on some of the younger generation, they all want to be influencers they all want to be the person they all want. There's not room for that. So we have to find turn those gifts that you think you'd be good at that. There's plenty of other opportunities for you to and to take the time and say, it's okay if you WanNa, do that for yourself and maybe not take the path that you thought you would. Some some gifts or coming, and sometimes I don't think like with me too. I was a little bit of a late bloomer. You know. So it was frustrating all everybody else said, I knew knew their pass needed great. My brother knew what he wanted. He's done really well over these years and. and. You know my my bank account may not look like there's but I still feel a sense of accomplishment and and happiness and. You know there are times when I go home and I'm around my family and they're all they make a lot more money than I do and you know and I kinda come back and feel a little down with myself. But then I have to reconnect like you said and look at my journey what I've done and and one accomplishing what I'm doing right now for myself and try to boost myself. Up and realize it gets okay. I. Don't have to look like that like you know I'm happily married. I have a good practice I'm I'm living life doing okay and You're helping a lot of people and I hope a lot of people in a different way right I mean I have a cousin that's orthopedic surgeon and other ones dermatologist and went through a lot of depression in my twenties and. When I was trying to figure out what? What is my path? What the heck do I WANNA do and once I really committed to acupuncture school I found the light inside myself and even through that it was bumpy in the beginning it wasn't making a lot of money you know I was doing another job industry on the side so but I think our our world is changing and You know I think there's a lot of opportunity out there. We just have to trust ourselves definitely why thank you have such an inspiring story and I know you said, well, why would anyone want to listen to my story but I think it's inspiring. The different kind of crossroads you had I think you should be super proud of everything that you've done. I can't wait to see you more. Exactly and a prick. Prick. Well, this was. Much speaker appreciate it. I I hope you enjoyed today's. I WANNA. Thank Beth for taking the time to chat with me Beth kind of stumbled upon her passion she was having migraine headaches went to get acupuncture and ended up falling in love with the world of Chinese medicine and that became her life's work. So I think it just shows us that even if we're not looking for it or even one of the least expected our passions could be just around the corner and we need to keep our eyes wide open I also love that Beth. is very passionate and believes in what she does. She talked about some of the challenges of being in a an industry that isn't necessarily totally appreciated or valued in our culture, and despite that she's made an impact on a lot of people and helped a lot of people and she's true to herself and I really value that and I think that's something we can all take with us that if we believe in what we're doing and know the value of our work, that's the most important thing. And that's it for today.