4 Episode results for "BRC"
EP-217 | Kicking it with Marty Skovlund of BRC Coffee or Die
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UH-HUH ENTER MILITARY DOT COM slash display Mentors for Military Mike. CATT's Mardi man. You've been a busy guy here lately. It started off. I think Well it was a couple of months ago before we head you on the podcast. But I think it's the last time I really started. Seeing a lot of the action was round around Normandy. I think it was when since last podcast That we did together. It was Normandy and then there was something else out you went over to Afghanistan. I think as well yes that last year or yeah last year now. Twenty eight no twenty nineteen was it. Yeah you went into Normandy right. I wanted to Normandy and twenty eighteen twenty nineteen but I didn't go to blossom as Afghanistan was twenty eighteen. They may have. Maybe it wasn't Afghanistan. Honest and maybe it was someplace else I've been getting around. It's been now spend a lot of traveling lately. A lot of trying to get out for good stories and have been bouncing around on a lot of different places. I'm not sure but I I mean I got to go to the Normandy anniversary two years in a row on this last year being seventy fifth anniversary significantly different experience experience in that first year but yet I got back from Afghanistan. Embedding out there. And then I think it was five or six days after I got back from that back on a plane going over Liberta to cover the anniversary so kind of a strange feeling to go from literally being in a firefight with isis to about a week later being on the beaches me to Normandy you know capturing just very festive environment you know. It's it's very different turnaround there so this had to be. Yeah really special of course a lot of the photos that I saw the rangers and everything you know climbing the wall that was there. Were some pretty emotional photos and stuff that I saw in Barry Authentic looking and everything anything else I was. It was really cool. Yeah this was I mean. It was even better this year for me because I was able to link up with the three fifty seconds special operations wing out of Mendenhall Endon Hall in England so one up with them in a I think they call the C.. One thirty J I WANNA say But yeah went up there with them got to video a bunch of combat controllers and some other other guys Going out the back for freefall. Jump into Iron Mike deasy which is right outside of Saint Mary Lee So that was really really cool And then on top of that we Yeah we were right on the cliffs. The rangers the active duty Rangers dressed in period. Uniforms was about half of them. Were in period uniforms. The other half were in modern uniforms right made a real school of visual out there. They actually had the commander of the Rangers who climbed point to Hawk back in world. War Two right there in his wheelchair watching him up so yeah and then they did a flyover over with a bunch of modern day aircraft. And I mean it's just these visual moments I mean those are kind of two big highlights for me but just the the visuals that once in a lifetime you know. I'm watching those guys impede. Uniforms come up over the cliffs and I got. I got to snap Lincoln so I could hang right over the edge by my safety line and really see them coming up and it just it was really really cool. And I mean mean on top of that to As the first year that I went out there it was just me by myself out. There's one man band as I usually am this year with his big of an event as it was. You know I talked to Evan. Hey for in in you know the powers that be at black right but like hey bring some people with me. We could get a lot more a lot more story here. A lot or footage if I if I had had some help and so he green lit that size able to go over there with a crew of about six people including my my younger brother. who's a former ranger himself. And you know we had a great time covered a ton of different events. Louder than ceremonies talked to a lot of different world. War Two veterans You know it was long. Hard are days. I'd say we were working sixteen to twenty hour days on average. Trying to put out daily dispatches but the daily written dispatches while the daily video dispatch trying to kind of bring that seventy of need the anniversary home to all the folks in the US that obviously not everybody can make it over for that anniversary so we tried to bring it to them by pumping that out but a a lot of hard work but it was just memories. We were right on Omaha beach on sunrise on June six. I mean it just like I individuals of those things. I think I'll never forget them for as long as I love. Yeah well what's cool about that. Is that you guys really brought it like you said you brought it home to us because looking at the photos so I mean I still see the photos out there all the time. Not just that you've taken but the other that others have taken in. I mean it's amazing. I can't imagine being there. I know Mike Fritz. One of the hosts on this show and stuff had really hoped to get over there and jump in. That was one of his goals that he wanted to do. He's a big history buff and teaches history at as a teacher and unfortunately he wasn't able to make sure I don't know if he's planning on doing it next year but I think it all had to do to with the fact that at seventy five years you know that he wanted to be there at that moment. Oh Man Yeah but and then along with that I guess now too. You're starting to read a book or another. No Yeah we just announced that What was it just right before the New Year I think that came out So I wrote last year A article called the legend Achieve Shannon. Kent Shannon was a naval special operator intelligence professional who was killed in action in Syria back in January. So Oh eight. Oh It's actually a couple of days from now will be the one year anniversary of her being killed has been that long. Yeah very recent So shortly after she died the Along with three others in a more injured in the attack Her husband who's also a former to seven five guy. Recently they retired Green Beret He reached out and apparently Shannon had read some of my stuff in the past and You know he reasonably like Hey I want to tell her story. Where do you think about coming out and doing an article So I went down the memorial which she was the. She's the only enlisted enlisted sailor to ever be allowed to have a memorial at the naval. Academy's Chapel. which say Chapel? It's a massive. You know. Yeah that was You know put them in context. The last person they allowed to do a memorial there was John McCain so this is a huge. Yeah So I went down there for that. Got Me Joe meet. Her family It was you know you. It was closed to the media the only media personal allowed in there and it was you know just to put into context. How big of a deal she was? It was like A. Who's who of Special Special Operations folks in there Hundreds hundreds hundreds of navy chief specifically chiefs the called it a sea of khaki that's what she would have wanted Another a lot about the navy. Just in general. I didn't know how big the deal that east seven chief ring side. Yeah my dad was one and I grew up with that and I never I understood a little bit then but it was a few years years later. You know after my dad retired and stuff. I really started learning how important it is to them to put on that that anchor and everything it'd be a chief petty the officer. It's huge in the army. It's kind of just like you know you went from a squad leader to be in a platoon sergeants yet. Another another step on the wrong so to speak and now for the navy. It's a big deal and apparently chiefs are the only ones that are allowed to wear Khakis as well as the officers but they're the only enlisted rank allowed to wear Khakis Akis. They had a sea of Khaki there and so I came back. You know wrote the article and it was kind of it was it was a long in depth article it was around six thousand words or something like that and you know we publish that it ended up being By far the most the the top performing article of the year for coffee I Hit you know the Joe reach out to me you know. He was really happy with it. The family was happy. The people that served with Sir. You know there's a few different articles written on her but they all I take great pride in the fact that I was told. This is the one that they felt really encapsulated who she was us. And Yes ause real happy with that and you don't kind of from their job was like well you know. I'm looking at doing a book. What do you think about? What do you think about baton? So you know. We went through the process. Okay we got a a lead Agent Orange. The He Larry the lead agent. He helped us kind of crap. That proposal We put which that's an endeavor in south that's like a fifteen thousand word document That lays out the whole book and you know we put that all together and then you know had shopped rounded some publishers and ended up with William Morrow which is The same publisher that was behind like American sniper in NEOM yeah they're they're a big publisher Definitely really psyched to have them to help us go forward with this now. I'll be spending a pretty good portion of twenty twenty working on that I'm trying to kind of get ahead of the coffee or die content right now so that I can take some time in really focus on on you know. It's one thing that article was a lot of work to get right and there's a lot of pressure because this is a this is a hero. She's got sons. Two two young sons left behind that we're GONNA be young enough. That's going to be hard for them to remember her when she's older. And so these things you know getting this right really matters in this book will be an even bigger challenge to take gone but I do feel like you know me and Joe have a good relationship in his sight to have her story out there and You know I'm GonNa try to. I think I think I'm a decent writer. And you know I have an understanding of the special operations community that she came from. So I think I'm kind of uniquely positioned to hopefully do it as good as one could possibly do it so I thought the article was amazing. Actually and I think it highlighted a lot of what maybe people I didn't know about her in the past from the special operas because I think initially when the story came out nothing was really said about her role what she did or anything else it was it was just hurt. Her name was there. As part of you know the the Ford guys and everything and it was much different and told very differently whenever ever you publish the article and everything you know then then everybody started understanding. Oh Wow okay now. I'm starting to get this pitcher you know and and we talk a lot about you know in previous episodes about women and special operations and I mean and it's been going on for a long period of time in various roles But it's really good to you. See a story like this get highlighted from you know the way it was in in portrayed the way it was I'm one that's actually looking forward to reading the book because article was amazing. Thank you and yeah you know to that point Shannon was what you know. This is what we tried to tell publishers. And you know Shannon was a woman in special operations before women. Men were in special operations. She was there before anybody started talking about it before it started being brought up in the what was it around two thousand eleven two thousand twelve. That really started coming into the national national consciousness. She'd been doing it for you. Know Me. And her served in the same task force back in two thousand seven unbeknownst to me at the time now reeling on but yeah I mean she's got pictures in the same you know I can really see my two up above where she's standing in one of her pictures and she's got a group photo. Oh right in front of the little place you know. It was called Camp Lewis I've got a group photo right in front of the same sign. I mean just is incredible and so she was out there doing the stop in. She had You know the Iraqis they they all all the Iraqi special operators. There was like a debbie. It'll be called the legendary Shane and Kim did he. Were talking about this. Red headed chick from America who could speak better Iraqi than them in the specific dialects and was rolling out with like earned one other due to go roll around Baghdad do source meats like by them you know like just these incredibly ballsy things that nobody really understand Dan what she was doing and then she you know when do a lot more like the direct action role in two thousand ten for her deployment to Afghanistan work alongside seals. And you know obviously I kind of inferred in the article will go into a little bit more depth than the book but ended up at you know a a special mission unit that not a lot of people have heard of out there you know everybody's sort of seal team six in Delta Force. She was a part of a different. You Know Kinda corner of that world Just absolutely breaks the mold. Hold on what people because I think most people I think about women's special operations right now they think The cultural support teams. Yes and things like that and you know I think those are great You know value add to the mission Russian especially counter back. SF working through in with mission. I think that's a great addition but Shannon was you know. I don't think many people realize that there were people bowl like Shannon out there doing the things that she was doing and You know the thing that I tried to explain his. You know I watched a UNIVAC. Wonder woman came out in theaters others. You know my my wife and my sister went to that together. They walk out that with tears in their eyes about. Finally there's a female protagonist on on the screen. That's like bad ass. You know with this I I can't help but think like why does it take a made up character. Comic Book Character to to be that person to be that bad asks female protagonists like I want this book to be something that I can give to my daughter in You know give to my sister given my in like this is a real life wonder woman which is the real deal. This person existed wasn't just it didn't come out of a comic book writers imagination. This was a real human in Sadly Asto be received as well she was one and she was the only one we you know that type of thing. It'll never be widely accepted for probably a number of years because because like you said it's usually tea rose. That's all they look at it. They never want to talk about anything. Allison of course you know our military doesn't talk about it because that's not something the thing that we went out there right so your book's going to really bring something Ford. While at the same time frame. I believe it's going to be here within the short timeframe if not already already we're going to have our first. Potentially our first female Special Forces Green Beret. And there's others already within the pipeline so so over time. This is going to become a lot more. You know acceptable. I guess if you will and stop when Moore start coming out when news starts coming out more about it your your book will be the one. I think that'll be the like what people will go to Sorta like The the the story of the CS tease this out there. Air GOTCHA. Why can I think of the name right now as like Yeah Ashley Story? So you know that book. They're open the door for people to understand about CS. Ast and that there were women within the fight serving long rangers and Delta and seals over there in Iraq and Afghanistan during the early days. I mean those are incredible stories to I've talked to so the CFC's they came in. They started being used in At that level a little shortly after I left Ranger Battalion so I never had any personal interaction with myself. But I've had more than a few friends that have worked with them. And specifically you know actually why Jennifer Marino and some of these others literally Sabe Ranger lives on target. You know There's some there's some pretty cool stories out out there But you know I know at least for what I'm diving into here with Shannon. I'm I'm psyched about it. I'm I you know it's been awhile since I've have done a book and I'm excited to be back in that author again it. It's kind of weird to be like all excited about this because it's happening because somebody died a mother a wife a daughter like you know somebody. That was a real Force multiplier for the military for the special operations like this is an incredible audible person that we lost dubbing sat. I can't change that so I am. I am excited to be able to tell this story and to be able to. Hopefully you know put a role model out there. That people can look up to you. Know even posthumously. Now I want to go to one of the posts that you recently had on your social media that reflects more you're on you and your time in combat and especially with the Seventy Fifth Ranger Regiment. And you know you started you know kind of sharing that over time. You've began Dan to forget a lot of the stories. A lot of the people that you served with or the things that happened along the way and what I said to you at that time frame was well. That's probably a good thing in some ways right because you know you're not always remembering all the bad. It's not something that you know sticking with you but there's also some of these good stories that is starting to slip away and you started journaling. Lot More to help remember those things and I thought it would be really good to kind of talk about out that because there's really two sides of this whole thing you know there's the side that we we Kinda WanNa forget but yet there's also this other side that's healthy for us to remember and reflect on those individuals that we end up serving with. Yeah it's strange that This is talk talk about now. I was somebody younger brothers. A paramedic now works in Minneapolis. Send in the rough part of town in Minneapolis in the things he sees as a paramedic or just I mean honestly at least in quantity dwarf what I saw in combat. You know The stuff that he's doing day in and day out and he said something to me the other day overtaxed that are really stuck with me. I wish my eyes would forget the things that I see and Or I wish that I would remember the things things that my eyes see her. You know something to that effect. That really struck me and so I think that there is definitely two sides to this. That being said he's been writing stuff down a lot four. I wish I would've wrote more. I wish I would have known I was going to be a writer one back when I was you know in battalion. But there's a it's not so much. I think people assume that the only thing that happens in war is bad things or things that you don't WanNa remember. I think a lot of people people have this field like. Oh well my grandpa never wanted to talk about World War Two so it must've just been terrible. I guarantee grandma just thought. Yeah you know. It's too complicated. I can't yeah and and maybe does bring certain bad memories to try to explain grandkids or something. I Dunno guarantee a GRANDPA had plenty of stories. That he's still you know joked around with his buddies as in the basement of the BEF W with you know like the there is a lot of really positive stuff that happens. You know some of the closest relationships you'll have forged in war in combat in the military in general Obviously at least in Modern Day Times war is only one part of the military experience that you know. You don't go away for for you know for four years at a time like you did back. Then it's now it's you know you're you're back and forth your Figo added for long enough and and so yeah. I wish would've wrote more back than I wish I. You know I'll get into these conversations now with people that served with will bring L. Age. Remember this Schick Schick. I completely forgot about that. And you don't even realize that you're forgetting when it happens because I even at this point out like what the heck happened. In between it was like one day I was taken you know my beret off and on my way up to New York from Savannah and before I know it I'm here with a you know who probably couldn't run run arranger standard good five mile anymore and and oh my gosh. It's been in a couple of weeks ago December. It was exactly ten years from the time that I returned from my last combat deployment ten years where the fog time go. This is a swearing. PODCAST which you know. That's that's that's how you feel you know and you start to forget these the things you know like man I I wish I could remember all them. I wish I would have wrote more back then because even if I start writing now certainly I should start writing now because you know I'll well if I if I'm already forgetting stuff at this point all forgotten even more another ten years from now so better late than never I think. I think that's a good message for anybody out there. That's that's listening to. It's better late than never start writing your memories down but You know you just don't even realize man it's been ten years in all the stuff that you've already forgotten just the little things you know. Little things that I I was actually reminded of when I go back over these embeds and you know that cruncher they p rock on your boots appear rockets. All over these these jobs you know You Know Surf and turf and I'm going to the de facto and the things that they do on the holidays and some things just something haven't changed That kind of brings back all that stuff. I've actually announcement embeds even ran into a couple of guys I was with not knowing they're they're in the deep act. Like Oh shit like this is a this is strange man like last you know So it's it's it's really started to weigh on me a little bit more especially as I've gotten more underwriting and realize the value writing stuff down and realize the the value of having stories and remembering the little details in the things that really do round out a story you know. People don't have a hard time remembering the high points in the low points you know those those host moments it's the stuff in between that starts to fade. You know And I think that's the stuff that you know. I try to help people like you whether you think you're right or not sit down. Hey remember Just you know five senses. What did you smell? What did you see? What were you hearing? You know that's GonNa Start bringing back a lot of stuff you know Whether it was the best times of the worst of times. That's GONNA help. That's that's a starting point. That's a foundation. Then he can kinda start. Start to fill in the blanks from there but Yeah I think it's really important. I've had a lot of people. Tell me that that have taken up writing that a static You know I don't know for me at this point. I don't know if I see it as therapy so much as it is. Just it's my occupation at this point it's work when I sit down to write it. It's hard for me to sit down and enjoy writing because it is work. You know then you know you think like ten years from now if we were to fast forward if you hadn't written these stories down or if you're not if you I don't write these stories down better yet and we fast forward ten years from now. I'm a member ricky. And you know that thing you did and to be like man you know vaguely Egli. It's I I kind of remember. It's just not going to be the same but the fact that you wrote it down. I'm sure at some point you'll pick it back up again. You'll pick that journal backup. You'll pick that document backup if nothing else to go down memory lane or something and you'll start reading some of these things and even ill either become more vivid and and you'll realize some things some things perhaps it's even forgot within the story Or you're going to thank God. Time has gone by so far. I don't remember remember that. Thank God I even wrote that down. Because that's hilarious. You know what happened there. I don't know about us God at that something that you do journal. I don't the worst part of it is is available memory as it is but I think that's the beauty you've reunions or get togethers. Toro discredit I think. The most times we do them now is it remembrance events and when you get people together I and you're in a comfort zone of being with people who shared the same experience with you. You feel a lot more comfortable reminiscent of letting the truth came out but as you said Mancino often when people with people who wouldn't understand it it's it's too complicated. It is too complicated. Okay did talk about it and what went on in particular. The you know the a lot of the good times we have is based on dark humor. And if if you haven't gene then have the experience you just people wouldn't get it and find the appropriate and possibly a little bit less of you for for being that way of finding nothing funny or whatever it was and you know when you together with a group of people you can you can have the shared experience and really let things come out and you know if if guys do write it down and get a book the next day and just put it back down when it's all fresh and mind and you'll be glad of in the end because in ten years time you come pick that up backup doc AP- well we don't have a BMW and stuff like that as well right now a days and so a lot of time. He's guys are getting off active duty or house or whatever they're going out all over the fifty states in different locations in away from their veteran brothers and sisters and they don't have that sense of community any longer. Yeah well to your point about people people thinking less of you. I'd just like to set the bar really low. I don't have to work. I don't know I I think yeah you know the BMW's not relating anymore. I think there's some great veteran service organizations out there like team red white and Blue Team Rubicon. Where you're getting veterans together in doing something something positive you know? I think that's actually the the next generation of the VFW words like hey instead of sitting in the basement and drinking Let's go out and make the world a little bit better place. Let's continue that service. That was kind of The reason that we most of us joined the military in the first place So yeah but I don't thank God I think if you're not gonNa do it for yourself you know in some people are real self-loathing in that way you're not GonNa do it yourself your kids to appear grandkids do it for family only history. Do it for posterity. If anything else is look at the back like hell the only reason we know what we know about civil war is because we had some knuckle draggers out there scratching something down in their journals and and those soldier. Diaries are are really important for history. So if you're not going to do it for yourself and you hate your future. Grandkids already. Then just do do for do it. For God's country again you know yeah. I think it's really really important stuff. Yeah I love the fact about the grandkids or whatever kind of thing because I think you you know as as time goes on earlier you forgetting your stories but the people later on or not GonNa know that much about you. They might see a photo they may hear about. You know your name for something of that nature but this is an opportunity truly for them to pick it up and go game. This guy was a really cool guy you know or look look at this stuff they did are my. Oh my God. That's hilarious story. I've got share that or whatever the case anyway journalese very therapeutic. But I think to there's that other side of it that people tend to not not wanna live within on the dark side of it those moments where they don't want to journal because they don't want to pick up and remember those opportunities. Well if nothing else pick up and start talking can about the very good stories you know talk about good times that you had. Yeah you don't start somewhere for sure. I think it. I think it is good to push yourself out of your comfort zone but you don't have to start there and if you never get there I mean who's there to judge you know you know it's you're you're you're only critic when it comes in journaling or writing you're putting any of that stuff down But yet you know when it comes to these stories and how people remember you I just think about some of these guys that I know. Now who just their exploits in the military. What they didn't warrants were you know they could all have their own book if they wanted into? Probably you know and now they got to the military medical transition. They're not one of these people. Call them professional veterans. You know they're You know they. They're off doing some completely unrelated job in the real world that I'm sure their coworkers. Maybe not like Oh you know so. And so was in the army or something. I think you know. But it's not a part of their everyday vernacular and you know it's not a part of that. I'm sure for like their kids or something might be like. Oh Dad's ads. got a picture on the wall or something with a bunch of guys in uniform. But that's where it ends. You know You know I think if you have those journals away somewhere it'll give context someday to oh you know. Here's the story behind the people in that photo with me. You know Here's here's what I did before I became a real estate agent era. You know whatever A carpenter you know what whatever it is that people go into to doing you know I think for me. It's like you're just by nature of what I do you know. My daughter is very aware aware that I was in the army. She was born yet or anything like that but she was very aware. You know my wife was with me. Through four hundred five deployments and new most of my friends in definitely heard US talk and shop up over Beers enough times properly. She remembers more about my. I'm in the service than I do. but I'm sure of it often when I start thinking and reminiscent about the the good days and Sorta like yeah. Yeah well let me tell you about that time that. Yeah and I mean if you're if you're one of those people who like you know you you did your four years then you got aluminium at your wife afterwards and she doesn't know anything about like. Oh Yeah I know you were in the army. But that's about all that they know about or the navy. Whatever may be I keep using the army but You know and then you had kids in your kids. Don't know anything about that. You went into a different line of work where nobody else really knows about. Maybe they might know that you were the military but if if that and you know it's like you have this whole chapter of your life that is just you know nobody really knows about. Maybe that's the way you want it but it again for posterity reasons so maybe you should write some of that stuff down. You should have a record somewhere to give context the random things he got locked away in your closet closet metaphorically and literally You know saw I think it makes a lot of sense. I think it's it's not gonNA hurt to do it. Put it that way. It's it's only only good things can come out a write in that stuff down and You know at least having some sort of record whether it's a little bit of what you experienced all a bit or somewhere in between you know I think it's I think it's a good thing. I encourage people to to look into it. I at minimum. Even nobody ever reads it overseas. It sad part is most people. Don't print photographs anymore. I mean they do it all digitally and you think you know the the odor photographs ship might have a picture on the backside. Somebody or even over the person's face you know they they write the names. You know. This is Eric or this. Is You know Jones. I don't remember his first name. Or you know whatever the case may be and nowadays is is all digital. We ended up losing her thumb drive the computer crashes. We don't Savor backup the memory all of it's lost and so you know to tie this in machining. Ken One of the incredible things that I have to work with Shannon was so forward thinking that she would take at the end of every year all the photos from that the printout for the she had scan them in and print them off into a book with captions for both Family Life Stuff. Our kids get married as well as her deployments Winston stuff she was that four thinking of like she realized. I don't want this up to just live on facebook. You know that type of thing or not I mean but like actual the printed books like you know through these services. Yeah like to these photo services that are out there working and all your pickers and put it into like a hardcover book for you yeah. It's it's incredible so we've got most of her adult life chronicle via her pictures names what I was doing when I was feeling through all all these years. You know pictures of her D. Ally the Defense Language Institute you know Navy Basic Training all the way you know deployments You know having our kids. It's like all these things and it's like man you know and everybody that I've talked about this. I need to do that. And I feel that way of hymies fingerprint these. Because I don't have I have photo. Oh albums they end up. I think a junior in high school you know right right is about the time. My space became a thing in on trump the after that facebook. Can the photo album stopped there. Yeah you know it seems kind of odd though in some ways you you'd think of Yeah you know. Takeover then grabbed that book from two thousand one listed that it almost fills narcissistic or a little. You know. I don't know it feels is odd but to your point when you're you're talking about somebody this removed. It could even be your son or daughter later on. It could be your spouse if something God forbid ever happened to you. It could be whomever that happened to pick up that book and see a chronological the way you're talking about it and well laid out where people can see the names in these photographs. They can hear the story story. Maybe perhaps in a paragraph that goes along with it. That's really cool. Or if they do want to look into more of your past. There's at least a starting point. There is at least importantly a chronological record of like. Oh this happened before this. This happened after this because of where you put this photo and I think that's really important. I know somebody WHO's writing a book on somebody that's no longer with us. His extremely helpful and I know those will be really important. You know not everybody you know that passes away prematurely is GonNa. You don't have a book published about them. That's just the sad truth of the matter But I think if more people are doing that there'd be at least be a record for their family to go back or something for their kids to look through is just again. Only good things can come from. It could even type in the blank pages. My proudest moments you know and kind of leave them blank said nobody has to look at the photos or anything and know what actually actually happened. I think I'm I'm I'm one of these people that everything lives on my phone. I've got about twenty. Three thousand foot was on my phone going going back from the booth of my I oughta when digital was Kinda just coming in to be in the thing and you know everything lives on my phone and I'm very very rarely. Do we actually get anything out of print. Now when you know when when I served in the army digital digital cameras literally would just come in to be. I remember when when I went to Afghanistan in two thousand two and we had a shock digital camera and I swear to God he was the size of a a shoebox in a and it was about three megapixel and we'd use it for Taking photos of ammunitions. And you know keeping a record of that and we we kind of you know we. We take a couple of floors settles in good places and nobody ever could get him off the thing because you have to plug it into the military lapped act open and nobody could get. You didn't fem drives and things like that but every everything that lives in the cloud for me I think he's such a great idea that you said had Multiple Shannon the end of every year taken. Everything important in books is it. This is something about You said it rob if you've got them in your house on a coffee table. Whatever it is if people come round pick it up and say what's what happened to you and it's starting a conversation starters name that's the beauty of having a physical full doing a free more in a book or whatever they might be? It's a conversation piece but when it's on on the cloud you know you don't say we'll give you scroll through your photos your forty thousand photos. Yeah Yeah I hate that too because there's been a couple of situations where I wanNA show somebody picture and I have to sit there and scroll through my instagram. Feed or something like that to try to find what I'm talking about. It's just embarrassing. 'cause account like halts conversation right there of hold on my life oh my own out in school through five minutes you know all right sometime in twenty twelve. who was worst of this whole thing? Is that if you're like me. Who I I get to some point where I don't WanNa keep all those photos on there so if I noticed that I put it on social media somewhere facebook page instagram? Whatever the case may be I deleted off my phone so if I ever close my facebook my any social media account that those photos were on well? Then it's all lost because I took it off the phone I've put it on the social media because I didn't want it in on the phone any longer to take him spend download your tire facebook account. You can download all the information on on it into a folder on your computer. I've done that a few times. This out of paranoia interesting okay. Well did you know about this gone. I didn't know about that. I I've everything's things on my phone. I don't need to I recently. After upgrade my club because I run out the two hundred Gig Ooh God. That's a lot. Yeah it's I mean you obviously Robert you remember when cameras put the gun powder in for the flood. Not Quite that bad but I will say that you know back in the day we didn't stop and take our photo moments and stuff whereas nowadays I mean you see these. He's you know. High definition photos V. Skies in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even some of those go back as much as five six years ago that are real some of them are really cool photos photos or you had ao. That's following you around taking photos and everything whereas back in the days there was none of those as well so somebody may end up capturing that moment for you today. I mean back in the day. We didn't do that. We didn't all of a sudden stop the FDA or gunnery or whatever we were on at that time frame your over in Germany and the reformed you're back in the day it was like we stop and go hold on. Let's get this cool action moment on film. It wasn't quite as bad as you described but it also wasn't a high tech camera either. Yeah I actually saw law these videos that we're doing for These stories I think it's So we just put out one. Speaking of Germany I went out to hone fells. Remember that place yes so went out. Upper dock big exercise out there called Sabre Junction and And so we just put that episode out. I'm nick followed There was an opiate from fifth group. Oda From Tenth Group A National Guard at Airports National Air National Guard unit out there that we went along for some rides on some heavy abby drops The one four infantry that was the place to opt for out there also put this video together all the stuff we've already had a few people kind has something congress at like. Hey it's hard to kind of explain to my family back home what I do or what. That looks like this video does that for me. You know and and I think that's pretty cool because certainly I don't. I have next to no videos of anything. I did never mind that was kind of in that inbetween time where I've got a couple of pictures but not as much as a lot of the guys that do Kinda Post two thousand nine. Two thousand ten on those guys have a lot of pictures advent to the cell phone iphone. All that But I'd like to think that these videos like man not only you probably have some pictures assures in some southeast with your boys but now there's like these videos out there that are four K.. Footage of you doing your thing you make like a Rockstar. In these one are actually like kind of mundane training events but They look really cool when you added it together and put some music to it. So yeah so what's next for you Martin Mardi other than writing the book going So I'm taking off In a week a half to rendezvous with the Air Force Special Operations Command Four. I think I'll be meeting up with him in New Mexico will be fine up to Alaska for some stuff that they're doing up there are going to be documenting that got a couple of other stories. That are kind Donovan. Mix that I don't really want to put out there yet across the military some dealing with special operations community again Really trying to be that you know Ernie Pyle Not that I'm comparing myself to him. But I WANNA follow in his footsteps a little bit of you know the news they tend to focus on the general had to say or the colonel or the politician. And I'm Kinda like well. Why don't we go out and tell stories of just like Gel on the ground joe and Jane on the ground doing their thing you know in so really trying to do that through video through photos through the written word I'M GONNA try to in the process of trying to front load as much of that as I can for the year in these kind of the next month or two before I Kinda slow down a little bit on the copyrights can focus on writing the book and then hopefully again towards the end of the year all Kinda ramp back up with the cough your dice stuff and do some more cool stories there air. But you know it's been Pretty wild ride so far. You know. Coffee is in block rifle allowing us to do what we do as far as traveling around the world in telling us really cool stories. It's you know I can't wait to see what we're what we're going to do next. I kind of know what's happening in the next month or two but outside outside of that it's while US military's in like one hundred and eighty countries around the world. So you know I can tell as many of those stories as I can. I'm going to do that as well. You know it's not all an international thing it's gone to Alaska doing some stuff around here. We did a story last year on Best Ranger Competition So you're going to be there in this year. Yeah no I won't be doing it again this year. I'm just because point Kinda going into the book writing mode there but now we we put a pretty good video on. That was pretty happy with that. Now and Yeah so we'll see where we go next a lot of other. Hey I think at some point we want to try to to that. I think it's the international sniper competition. That's kind of one. That's on my to do list. And I'd love to get over to the Vietnam or somewhere in Thailand may be for Cobra Gold on the big one. So I'd I'd love to get over there. There's there's kind of a few different things on my to do you list that. I'm sure we'll get around to I think the military to there's Delta When I got coffee die but the you know but we've got a little rock record now and I think we're usually when I go out there? It's kind of like. Hey guys you don't have to worry about too much was in the military. I know how to snap into a helicopter after you know how to be safe around aircraft military equipment. I you know I've been there done that. Things have changed so much in the past ten years that I don't know my way around on so I think it's kind of a relatively stress free experience for the military people and you know what that's like to accommodate embedded media in all that sort of stuff so You know we'll see where we go next. I'm excited Would definitely have to have you back on again to catch up again about some of the things that you're describing there ear and see how those went party. It's always a pleasure having you on the show brother. Hope you you have a good one. Thanks for having me on and Yeah can't talk again and okay.
Episode 032 - Telling an Authentic Story
"Uh-huh. On this episode of confessions of a marketer, we're telling authentic stories. MAC, confessions of a marketer. I'm Margaret Edwards. We have Matt Salah array creative director at b. r. c. imagination arts here to talk about telling an authentic story. We'll get to that chat shortly in the weeks ahead. Peter Horst will be on to discuss marketing in the age of fake news. Next week, Duncan chapel will be back here to discuss PR agencies and how they can boost analyst relations, lots more in store. So do stay to onto Matt psolaren all about authenticity. As days he started the season with Beth Comstock and her honest stories about her life and career. We talked about amphitheater with Scott Monty last week and be hit on it a lot in the early episodes of confessions marketer. So we're continuing that theme today. Matt is creative director at b. r. c. imagination arts of leading. Experience design and production agency. Matt's worked with some great brands until some stories about creating thank experiences for Jamieson and NASA. Let's get to it. Laurie. It's great to have you on the podcast. Welcome to confessions marketer. Thank you for having me. So there's an old saying that goes, authenticity is the thing. Once you've got that faked here hall said, what is the secret to telling authentic stories? As a good question, I I'm gonna let me start off by by giving you a little idea of like who we are, what we do and why off into cities is important to the work that we do sure in telling stories. So I work with the imagination arts in. We're an experienced design agency, and we create emotionally transformative experiences, the connect people to brands or culture, institutions, or stories. And with the organizations and brands that we work with. What we find is that audiences are really craving, authentic experiences that they want to be a part of a narrative that. That connects with their own deep values and stories as well. And that's why I think that authenticity is so important. One of the things that we have pioneered over the past several years. This idea of like a like working with brands, it's idea of brand home and what sets a brand home apart from, say, a flagship store, things like that is it's commitment, authenticity. A brand home is sort of the the spiritual home of the brand or the story. For example, like we, we did some work with Jameson for their distillery in both street in in Dublin, and they could do any kind of experience that they want anywhere in the world. But this is the authentic place where the Jameson story began its hollowed ground. This is them inviting people into their home to experience their story. To learn about the story of John Jameson and how he built his place in really from the ground up and bringing these stories out in authentic way that connect with the audience coming through the door. So a client comes to you, looking to get their story told, how do you would vise them to get started? Where should they look? Where should they start to get this going? That's yeah. I think where where we begin with I is you wanna bring a bunch of people around the table an across cross disciplinary team, not just your marketing departments or your executive 's, but really you wanna look at the at the experience. You wanna create from a wide variety of perspectives. You know, a lot of times brands in corporations have in house historian. In curator's who keep the history of the organization. You want them at the table. You potentially want to have people, especially if this is going to be a destination attraction. You'll wanna have people from the local tourism community there or people that are offering attractions to their guests when they come to town. So you wanna bring his many voices possible around the table. And then you begin with really setting your foundation. You have to figure out why you're doing this in the first place. This isn't like going into a store and picking a widget off the shelf. When you create a brand experience, these sort of brand homes, you're crafting these things as unique. This spoke story driven experiences, so you wanna figure out why you're doing it. What you know, what does it Yogi bear that says, if you don't know what you're going, you're liable to end up someplace else. So. So you figure out as a group, you know, what are your KPI. From a business perspective that you want to achieve. Does this thing need to make money? You also want to figure out predominantly, what is the effect that you want to have on your audience? What is the change you wanna bring about in your audience is at fostering a deeper, emotional connection with the brand itself in an authentic way? Right. Not just I like to buy this product, but they really deeply identify with the story in heritage of the brand, and it reflects their values as well. Once you figuring those things out really sets the foundation for the entire project to become the foundation that you build everything on and the the northstar that if you start to lose your way, as you go through this process, you always go back to those foundational ideas and your objectives and bring you back to renew to go. Do you find that there's a disconnect often between the reality of the story and the aspirated. Or what they think they are? Oh, yes, absolutely. Some brands are better than others and we go at each situation completely agnostic. You know, we, we try to listen and in here they have to say. But oftentimes what you get is they have a lot of things they want to say and what they really need to be engaging in a two way conversation with their guests. The way of saying that a need to tell on your part does not equal in need to here on my part. So you got to, you know. So yes, you gotta. You gotta really be humble when you're going into this because it's really the end of the day about your guest. This is a hospitality experience. You're welcoming them into this authentic home that you've creating. So you really want to think about what's an interest to them, where are they at when they come through the door, start there and build up from there and talk about the things that resonate with your. Our guest and the rest will follow because the ideas to light a fire not to fill a bucket. Right? And so that's where the distance question comes in. So. Leads to my next question. Conveniently was water the mistakes that companies make when they're telling stories in kind of an attempt to sound authentic, do they come off as inauthentic? Yeah, I think in there also in this potential pitfalls lies the opportunity and one of the things that has briefly touched on this idea of two way conversations you really instead of being this one way flow of information and facts, aren't we cool? It really needs to be to a needs to be participatory with your guests with your audience. Again, working with the Jameson distillery here, it's an opportunity to create a place for friends and family and strangers to come together in experienced something together, and there's also authenticity in that as well about bringing people together on in creating memories that last and in that process, you're also creating. A deeper, emotional connection with your brand with your story. What am I things that I, I love the most is when people walk out of one of the experiences that recreating and they'll say, like, here's an example. We also this for museums, the ABRAHAM LINCOLN presidential libraries is one that we work pioneered this idea, experiential museums, and people walk out of that saying, I didn't know that I was a fan of Lincoln before I walked into this museum, but walking out now, I know that I have and you can say the same thing about a brand. You know, I was the casual drinker Jameson before I win it, but I walked out. I really felt like I felt like we had a connection and you wanna keep that connection alive. Yeah, and it's all it's all about telling the story that people can can relate to and can get involved in themselves. Yeah, exactly. And I think you know, we see this more and more today to it really is the culmination. Or the fruition of the experience economy. You know, people today would much rather spend money on experiences, things that maybe not even trivial that really connect them to themselves to the brand to their friends of their family, remind us of our our better nature. Right. And these kinds of these kinds of experiences that remind guests of, you know the in the story of of Jameson. I mean, it's an underdog story. You know what he did, and that resonates with a lot of people who are trying to find their way and having idea that they're trying to get off the ground. And that's, that's there's power in almost every brand has a story like that. And if you can bring that out and connected with your guests and say, hey, look, we started just like you. We had ideas. Well, look where we are today. We want to share this with you and there's power in that when you're telling the story whether you're doing on a phone call or you're doing it in. An exhibit at, you know, something like the Jameson story you were talking about, does it all come down to having empathy for the guest or the person who's doing the experiencing in a way I would. I would actually refine that and say, you know, you've heard me talk repeatedly about this idea of connection, and I would say it really comes down to even more so than empathy is about connecting it connecting. Don't tell me what is new. Tell me what is never old. Right? And that that that saying, as well is consistent here, what are universal feelings, dreams and goals that we all have. And if you can connect those guests to guest guest brand guests to museum, and that's the way to do it. You know, one of my favorite stories is when you do these experiences, it's sometimes hard to gauge the emotional follow on results of what you do but years ago, and we've done a lot of work with NASA over the years and they came to us and they said, look, we're having a hard time with our work. Force. Our workforce is aging and we're losing people of interest in space exploration. You know, back in the day when we first put man on the moon, the average age of an employee was twenty seven years old and not too long ago. It was about fifty related problems like how we can motion engage people with our mission and and and the business that we have here. So we helped him create experiences to really get people excited about the future space exploration and on one of them, I really wanted to find out what young people today were really interested. And there was this this presentation of gotten wind of, and it was these young NASA scientists and engineers that were really causing a raucous because they were calling the NASA guard to the mat for saying, hey, look, you're Norring us that you're not taking advantage of our passion here. So we brought them to our students. Tell us your story. Tell us what you're experienced is, and I said, what got you interested in NASA? And pretty much all the guys the same story. Oh, I love Star Wars. I love Star Trek. And this one young woman said when I was a little girl, I w-. Went to space center Houston. So she walks in with her mom, and she says, I'm coming back here to work one day and I just looked at her. I said, you're kidding says, no, you know that that's our experience. We built that into it. We were both floored that here was actually somebody whose life was changed by an experience that she had that we helped craft on the part of NASA. And that's a direct example of the power of emotional storytelling. Yeah, I think what underscores for me and hopefully for the listeners who may be, you know, in a b. to b. business or Beata see business, what whatever it is that it's about the experience that the consumer has with your brand, and it's a visceral experience. It is. It's about people it on. You never want to forget that the heart of all about people. And when you create these experiences the way that you want to engage them as you, you wanna create a sense of magic, you know, you want us apprise and delight them. You want to engage all their senses. You wanna give an exceptional hospitality because really today you're saying, this is for you, you know, and it works like a charm. You know, when that was create an exceptional experience versus one that is, you know, like we were talking about on this more one sided. The brand wants to tell you something, but really, you know, creates. Begins with people said, are stories, hospitals, sense of magic and delight. Wonder an emotional engagement. You talked about NASA Jameson other stories, case studies have clients worked with them become more authentic. Yeah, you, we have lots of, you know, there's there's two really interesting examples. One of them has to do with a museum in one is with the brand and and I, I almost don't put a distinction between the two because in today's day and age museums need to function like entrepreneurs in light brands as well. They have a story to tell they need to. They need to blast through all the clutter out there. One of them is my favorite is we've been hired by the Barna museum in Bridgeport, Connecticut. Now, p.t Barnum is a, you know, a misunderstood icon of America. He invented the idea of modern marketing and PR sure the invented modern entertainment. He invented the modern museum and he was a community benef-. Factor and and father believed in giving back. And before he died, he had designed his last building which is where the museum exist in Bridgeport. They were hit by a tornado and hurricanes. They kind of got knocked out of business. So director said, let's take advantage of the opportunity like Barnum would to turn a disaster into an opportunity here. So really it's an opportunity to to tell the story of an American icon and we're revisiting this with them right now to turn what was a traditional Newseum into an experience. I mean, all we have to do is ask, what would Barnum do that kind of gives us all the fuel that we need to bring entertainment and hospitality to this and a second will be with forward. We do a lot of work with a Ford as well, and they wanted to do it experience rather new f one fifty truck, right? So we created this experience at the Ford Rouge factory in Dearborn. Michigan that combines up begins with this idea of of they go out asking there. Customers what they want, what are some of the innovations they love to see? And then we get to see that all being laid into this really dynamic the experience that basically says, yeah, we listen to you. This is for you than outcomes. It's really a magical experience and the new f one fifty truck and it's, it's a, it's a wonderful experience this to right there that I just love. That's wonderful. Matthew, this has been a great discussion and it's really kind of I opening about how experiences can be transformed by authenticity by telling your real story and every brand has a story to tell you just gotta find it won't thanks very much for being on confessions remark. It was really fun Chad, I appreciate it. My pleasure. Thanks for having next for being here. It's about to see really, isn't it. Next week, don't ca chapel is back with us to talk about PR agencies can boost panelist relations and two weeks. Peter horse will be into talk about marketing in the Dake news era. Both of these episodes are in the camp and they're really fascinated discussions. I hope you can stay tune for that and more right here on confessions of this episode of confessions market was written produced and edited by yours truly t Jordan of A-Class productions wrote the theme music. Confessions of a marketer is a trademark of read Edwards globally, and this episode is copyright eighteen. I'm Mark. See.
YFT Season 2. Ep 24: Wells crushes on BRC (aka Blood) and Brandi has WhatsApp sex with 'Michiel Huisman'
"Would you do they woke up did my two radio shows than I laughed in a went to hallmark channel for home and family? Oh, yeah. I saw that. How cool is that dude? Because cooking wells is go at goal hoebel. Can you knew believe that the stupid thing that I came up with like kinda drunk has become so popular that hallmark channel has decided to completely forget that half of my cooking. Wells thing is me Cussing and swearing and being like overall offensive to have all of that. It's a great concept. I know they're like we gotta have wells on. So. Yeah, I went there the most wholesome wonderful people that's als like so my supposed to do like, the voice and like cuss, and they're like, no, no, no, no, no don't do that. Now. It's like, but that's what cooking wells is. You had to know they weren't gonna to do that. They made me they made me do the voice. But then and I didn't cost, you know. Now, they did. Yeah. There were like was it hard to hold back. Yeah. You know? How do they brands? Welcome to episode of cooking wells there and make some tacos and they're like either like oh my God. What is that? Now's like yours can use Zaim as the popularity of this thing. So there that is. So I did that that was a lot of fun. And then hire to come home that I went to Hoffer to host the trivia game. Thank you my phone on your phone. And then I came back here in our doing this. So it just Bing bang, boom. Getting it done and Derek's here because he flew out because Derek an Steph Pratt have been going on dates and really, but we didn't even talk about areas. That's like a different podcast. That's not this one. You know, Derek get it. That's a Larry is cute. Well, you've got a great day. I had the most relaxing day ever. And I need it so badly the tour really put me over the edge. I went on a hike this morning by myself, total thirty minute drive outside a Denver former mile hike. There's hardly any on the trail. It was an absolute perfect outside. And it was like sixty five and sunny was wonderful on came back made some food and then packing plant my house. And then I just had a massage and here we are. Ten NASCAR better day, go. Yeah. Bet your show. Sure, he'll use your time to start broS in hose or hose and broke hosing to get top billing when it sounds hose and broS yapping. So, you know, it's a little I don't get top billing, though, the it's true. Do you want? Okay. Let's we'll this this episode hose getting top billing all over the place. Okay. Yeah. Is in broS. You're listening your favorite podcast with brandied. Well. Hey. Sounds weird. I got a couple favorite things to do social media and the Cyrus clan. I don't know if you want to get right into it. You dean do I'm going to start with you because you're the most important thing. Yeah. And you're my favorite things. I'll kill there. Can I coming back from Hoffer and we were scrolling through? He was thrown through his grandma's driving and little picture of brand is Cyrus shows up really knowing wrangles showing off a nice moody in some stretchy pants with a diamond status. Content. Would you say was diamonds status? Looking good girl. I don't know what you've been doing all the gluten-free bread. You've been crushing what's happening. But I'll now, but the booty is looking on point. I think you you're very high compliment. All right. What else you got Cyrus fan favorites? Well, it's really funny. So on one of my radio shows, we started playing this song when it was probably two three weeks ago yet, and I get an Email from my boss, and he's like, okay. There's this new song that we're putting in to the playlist. It's going to be showing up a lot in your time slot 'cause I'm I do night. So you can kind of play edgier newer music. Right. Right. And I was like, okay, cool. And he was like just so, you know, this kid got famous because of tick tock, and I was like what's tick tock, and he's like, it's this social media apps. It's a thing. And I was like, yeah. Okay. Whatever. And he's like just you have some context of what the hell this is now. I was like. Yeah. Cool that was a couple of weeks ago. And then all of a sudden, we'll gnaws X is like the biggest thing in the world. Bowl towel road. There. Is the song right now. So that was couple of weeks ago. And then earlier this week, my boy blood, my boy Biard. All of a sudden does a remix. Yup. With with little nausea. And this is what I love about it like your your. Here's what I was seen about your family is so good at working the system Lamey by that like using social media and using younger artists in crossing over and stuff to make everyone succeed. And I was like so your dad posted this video. So he did a remix the fill Naza. How do I find that? By the way, just remix by apple. Yeah. Type in old town road remix. So do you want to hear some some back story on this from my point of view the hold on? I just wanna finish what I saw. So your dad and Luna's ex did this thing. And then your dad posted on Twitter. This like old stock video of him dancing on stage, and like dancing, really badly or whatever. But with. Like, the new remix, and it would but time I saw which was like right in the beginning had like thousands of re tweets and everything and I just wrote blood. You're getting so good at social media. It's blow mind man, anyways. I will say this though, your your dad's like addition to the song Kandal it did out very lit to Illit right now. It's like a whole 'nother thing where people are like joking around about like the lyric that he wrote right? Dude. I'm so proud. I'm so proud of blood. You know, man, tell me the like your behind the scene stuff of it. So yeah, I feel a little bad that I actually didn't tell you when this happened. But so I was on Caitlyn's tour, and I had hadn't really talked my mom or dad, very often. Just because I was just had been so busy on so many planes. And then one day I'll had like a day off in New York. I think I was New York faced on my mom, and I was like what he has been due to in haven't been heard from you in days. That's weird. And she was like brand your dad is about to have a number one single. And I was like what are you talking about? And like I was like are you guys high like what's going on here? And she was like we are. But I'm telling you your dad is going to be the talk of the town this time next week. And I was like all right. You gotta tell me whatever they're like ecstatic over here, by the way, you're so impersonation is the best thing I've ever heard my entire life. It's because I do it all the time. Yeah. Whatever. So anyway, so they send me. So what would it would happen was like little knows X, right? He puts his song out, and it starts to gains momentum. And I think it was climbing the billboard chart is. I believe what was happening, and they took it down because they said, it wasn't country music, and it was on country charts, and they took the song down. And so basically a couple of industry people that know, my mom and my dad hit her out. And was like, hey, there's a song give it a listen. You know, they're saying it's not country. What if we put Billy Ray on it? Let him do a verse feature and then we release it. And I can't say it's not country. Whatever billiards is on it. So she sent me like a demo version of what my dad had just laid down a verse literally over over like listening to the song on a computer just like s how he wrote it. And then they went by. Then once you know, everything got approves they brought will not accent. And they did together and turns out unless execute VR see fan who knew and two that was the last week. And I just kept hearing like. Oh, this is gonna blow up. Oh, this is gonna blow up and I'm like, I'm such like a. List? I don't know not pass miss realist. And I'm like, you know, what like we'll see where that would be really cool. But like, I'll believe it when I see kind of thing. And then lo and behold of my dad would say there's a night four Friday morning that song comes out, and it's on Friday, and like I wake up Friday morning. And like every press outlet has written her out about it. I'm talking like height beast pitchfork like all the cool blogs are all raving about it saying my dad killed it. Memes. All over the place. So not only is taken the video of my dad dancing, but any video of like any Cyrus member on a horse has taken put a fine. This off the track song. And it's just freaking hysterical. And my dentist is on cloud nine. He's just so happy. I love seeing them happy. That's the line right there. Hold on. Diamond rings and Pindi sports bras, rotten down. Fenby sports. Bronze. Nozzle karate sports car. I mean, what's his first second is appreciate blood right now. I mean like. The song was catchy. Your dad. I don't know man made it a whole different thing that it's so good. It's so good. It'd be our C kill in the game. We what's crazy about this. Is that old town road? He's at eleven. He's got almost twelve million spins on it today. Achey breaky heart has thirty eleven eleven almost twelve million, Spence. Yeah. Achey breaking has almost thirty four million. So in in the span of a couple days this song is one third as popular as arguably one of the most like icon ick country songs of ours or any other generation so raw typically tip of the old STET's in do you be our see blood? Love you, buddy. Happier. You and your family. I love it. I'm not that. You didn't tell me this. I will also like I didn't wanna start talking about it. And then it like come out and no-one about it. And maybe like just getting but no if. Feels like a family win. Like when one of us doesn't think great, you know? And I think it's cool because like this kid, you know, like that has like suck to have so much momentum with something. And then people take it down say, it's not it's not country enough. It's enough that enough or whatever. And so for my dad to come in and be like, you know, what it is. And we're gonna prove them wrong. I think is very cool. I like just need Billy Ray Cyrus to make anything country. Yeah. It's funny. You know? And there's a lot of people hating on it in the country music industry in a bunch of other country artists not gonna name names, but I saw some stuff from the this past weekend and people can hate on and all they want. They can say country not country all I want. But the end of the day, it's the number one song, and they can't take that away from them. You know what I mean? And I just feel like country music for whatever reason all genera country. Always feels the most threatened by outside influence, and I don't know why that is. I know why that I don't know if you wanna get political with it. But it's to me, it's very obvious generally country music. People are middle Americans salt of the earth conservatives, and what is one thing that conservatives are very very scared of change change. And this is very very different. You know, that's a great mind. Yeah. Does a good point. I dunno. It's a he's a kid to like every, you know, people are like tearing down like Reza freaking kid. I don't know. I'm happy for him. I think you so cool. My mom's met him. She absolutely loves the guy. I don't know had just it feels like a win. The me. I'm happy for my dad. I mean, I was watching the videos of like Billy Ray little gnaws like in that studio, a reverse recorded this podcast before and they're like dance it and like he and Billy Ray's like super pumped about his verse. Which is by the way. I mean at such a not taking away thing with your father. But like it's such a Miley verse to me, you know, right? Like, I feel like your dad was like what would Miley say here. You know, majlis majlis the songs biggest fan. I don't know. If you watch over the past few days, it's all she's posted about it's all she's talked about my mom said that she's literally FaceTime to the two of them like every every other hour since his on came out like she's ecstatic about it. She loves it. It's up goal. Well, anyway. He's one of my favorite things is blood Charton. And right now, I mean how great is that? It's great. No one's happier than my mother that I gotta say. Yeah. Commit contests. Come back on the show real quick. And we should ever on next week. No, no. Can you just be tissue quick L? Let me let me let me interview you as as your mother. Tash? Great to see you. I've missed you so much beautiful highway ELS how proud of you are how proud are you of your husband right now? After after getting this number one with little NASDAQ's. God, I can not be more proud of my hot husband. And I knew before anyone else. This song was gonna be a banger. I heard you. And I knew and I'm here to tell you that. I was the first one on the old town road train and could not be happier for my family and my had worked at hard work in hubby. And we are just ecstatic God forbid anything happens to Billy Wright. What happ? What's the next thing? That happens in your life romantically better tell Sarah that she needs this Steph bat because you know, that if anything happens to Bailey ri-, I'm knocking on your door. You are good at doing your mom's voice. Like. It's actually it's actually one of the most it's one of my ever. I didn't know that you did it so well because you always just you all you've done in small spurts before like, she'll say this word this way. And then you'll do it. And I'm like, yeah. That does sound like her, but I've never heard like I was transported back to your mom's house right there. Areas, man. So what else is going on with you do? I mean crap Ola let's happened in the Cyrus clan. I know a lot happening a lot happening. It's a little rolling. No is in Bali on a songwriters trip. Cool. Cool. My sisters, you know, announcing festivals one right after the other. So freaking playing Primavera on births. Luna, so cool. You see that? No. But I would like to go to that one L right or Woodstock though, you want to go to Woodstock talks interesting because it's been fifty years since the festival happened. Yeah. Like, you know that there's only been two Woodstock's, right? Yeah. So this the fifty year thing is going to be a big deal. I think the the lineup looks right. So I think we should go to that. And we do a live podcast because it's one it. But how do we get the the loan like how does that work? I'm actually going to be in South Africa during that festival. Unfortunately. Because I need an update on Michel heels Mun real quick. Do because we haven't really talked about unless couple episodes on one of these some space, but like how are things going. Yeah. Things are great. You know? It's funny is so on this tour the tour, so many wife, tears, they're obviously. And they were all first thing they asked was can we see? I did. Peak. Yeah, they were extent attic who's a good. Look, man. He's super q and he's Doral we're actually planning his trip here. So he's not coming into August. And I know that seems really far away, but it's gonna sneak up on us, and he really his dream to go to Yellowstone. So we're going to do a little road trip. Ski and take him deal stone. We're going to camp and do some things. And so yeah when planning and I'm just so excited about it. Getting rows thinking about it as well. I wasn't. But you know, you can sure. Yeah. Do you guys have phone sex Skype sex? I would say, yeah. It's like what's up? It's up socks with that. That's cool. Yeah. Skype. Sex is so old school is it. I mean, who is this guy? Besides us right now, yet, we're doing this podcast on Skype, shall we do this on what's no, I don't think they have a desktop version to be honest. But no, he's great. I'm going there for my birthday. So that's going to be relatively soon. Yeah. Things are very all. Right. All right. It's one of my favorite things is that we are teaming up with a smile direct club. Because brand is got broke ask real. She needs fixed out. Cain is his bottom teeth. But I gotta say I am actually very excited about it. Yeah. Your smile Hyder. Dude. You know, what I actually got him? So you like brand new you hide in your teeth in group picks or just not smiling. When meeting someone because you don't like how your teeth look. So a smile direct club. You can straighten your teeth with invisible liners sent directly to you. You can have the smile you'll love for a lifetime with all the confidence, and you won't be hiding your bottom teeth like brand I overhear seriously though, like when I was a kid, I did the whole braces thing retainers thing and somehow still I came out with crooked bottom Jeep, and I've always wanted to fix it. But just like who wants to go to the dentist and go to the whole thing and have to go back and forth. Does it's a lot. It's a big commitment. So the idea of getting news. Trays delivered drug with my apartment is very appealing man, these visible liners were gently discreetly to gradually guide your teeth into not looking all jagged and one of their two hundred plus duly licensed doctors oversee your plan every step of the way. So here's the deal. Go to smile direct club dot com to see real before. And after photos of more than three hundred fifty thousand satisfied grins, and here's the deal. If you guys don't think that we're not serious about this brand is going to be doing it. So every week we're gonna be talking about your smile direct journey can't wait and actually going down on Thursday to there's a little smile. Direct spot here in Denver, and they're gonna take Scana my teeth or whatever to like make the first trait. So it's like really happening. Order a free impression kit with rebate or schedule a free three D scan at one of their smile shops. Plus smile club has an exclusive offer for our listeners get one hundred and fifty dollars. Off your invisible liners that smile direct club dot com slash podcast and use offer code why F T one fifty. So remember your favorite thing? And then how much you're gonna save which is one fifty if you're listening this offers for you, get one hundred fifty dollars off at smile direct club dot com slash podcast. And don't forget offer code Y F T one fifty. It's a good smile at club dot com slash podcast and use the promo code Y F T one fifty do. All time favorite things as well. Guess my quip toothbrush. Like, literally. I'm packing early right now on always get so excited when I pull my clip toothbrush off the mirror in pack it away. It's just so cute. And I truly like I'm such a fan of the suit brush, what do you got the gun metal grey? What's your what's your color? Quip toothbrush mines rose gold. Oh, it is that that Jackson. Actually, I love my toothbrush to man. I mean, it's great for travel because he's got a great traveling case that comes with it it hooks onto the to the walls or the the mirror. So when you're at a hotel, you don't have to have your toothbrush on any surface. It's just suspended in air, which is great. But it's also super dope to have in the house. It makes my bathroom. Look a little bit cooler. You know, Jeff likes importantly, totally whenever the people under. Visit. They're always like what does that toothbrush on your mirrored? So cool. Get so many compliments on it. And honestly as much as it's cool. Like, it's also so practical one of my biggest things up my teeth. I'm so bad about is doing the full to me to it for two minutes. I'm so impatient. I'm usually so tired. I go to bed, but I don't wanna stand up for two minutes. But quick is great because it has a built in timer, and it pulses every thirty seconds to remind you to switch sides or when the switch from your teeth year bottom, and it keeps accountable to stand there for the two minutes. No, man. It's hard for me to do anything for two minutes. Well, I do love the most Arab. That's. I do love the multi use cover amounts to the mirror and amounts in slides over bristles for a on the go brushing. And also like the the best thing about this thing. There's a lot of great things, but the brush heads are automated delivered on a dentist recommended schedule. Every three months for just five bucks so union after remember when it's time to change your toothbrush. It just gets sent you. It's per fat. Not only did they send you brush, as they also send you new batteries for the toothbrush to so great because you don't have to plug it in or anything the batteries last three months, then when you're sheds delivered. You new batteries get delivered. That's why we love quip. And that's why they're backed by over twenty thousand dental professionals quip starts just twenty five bucks. If you go to get quip dot com slash y YIF t for your favorite thing. You'll get your first refill pack free with a quip electric toothbrush. That's your first refill pack free at. G E T Q U P dot com slash Y. F T didn't. You want to do some favorite things. Sure. Only gosh. So I try binge recently been trying to watch some new stuff or the pod. I do I what is it called like triple frontier something Netflix built movie I've been wanting to watch. Not did not hold my tension. I didn't even make it to the whole movie. Maybe that's why it was on deflects as appointed. But then I started the highwayman movie, and it's really good. I haven't finished it. But it I liked it a lot. Yeah. By saw a documentary that I thought was really interesting called cocaine island. Oh, I'll give it a ding dang Dubar. So on it's kind of like paint the picture of what it is. So it's about a guy who's this kind of big hippie who lives in I think, Texas or Oklahoma or something kinda walks around the town keeps himself, and he's got some like some outlier friends, and they're all got a party one night. And he would tell the story of the time that he lived in Puerto Rico lived in Puerto Rico for like six or seven years Mondays walking on the beach, and he found this big duffel bag, and he looked at the duffel bag, and it was about street value. Two million dollars worth. Cocaine, but he didn't know what to do with it, nor did know what how to get back to America, whatever. So he took the duffel bag any buried it kinda close to his house. But he told everyone about it. The documentaries about to people who've heard this story who tried to figure out a way to go down get the cocaine bring it back the states and sell it and what happens in their journey, and it's really funny. Really well done. I will say this the hippie who found the cocaine isn't a liar. Just in case, you're wondering. Oh, yeah. So it's good. It's good. Like the way they redo it reenacted a little hokey. But pretty funny that there's like a main character, and then then like a supporting supporting actor not actors, but like us how I would describe it. And the supporting guy is so active that you have to watch just for him. Oh, cocaine I- Lind. Go to Highland that lacks. I started watching. What's it called our earth? The new like have you seen that on Netflix? No is it like planet earth. I never watched planet earth. But I would I would assume that that it is. No, it's really good. It's like, I just shoot those things. HQ quality. What is Derek there that you leaving is your over here, Derrick? Okay. Oh, she wants to tell them to come over come over. She says, hey, Derek Randy. I. You're in LA. No. Would you say I'm sorry. I said I hear that you're in LA getting a hot piece of ass. Yes. Allow let me clear my throat very boring to say yes here. Derek? Look at your life. That's all I wanted to say it was a fun. I need to see time starting her. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Me sub. Try steal my bachelor friends. Okay. Listen, something tells me you're going to be back soon to LA. I'll sees soon. Are you where do you live right now? Your Denver L L. Okay. Yeah. Hope so okay. Have fun a recording. Thank you. They're hugging. That's key. I miss you too. Right now. Yeah points. Yeah. Okay. Why buddy good to see you? Thank you so much for everything dude. I'm so sorry that you got fucking robbed. Watch robbed. Blair is is cargo broke it into art letter. Did. Yeah. He got robbed in San Francisco's brutal. Pro what do you mean? Coming at it. He texted me because we were all going to this charity event. The Derek text me. He's like, hey, man. I lost my key to my rental car. This is the problem for me to get over to this charity event Napa, and I was like, well, I don't know call the Reynolds people. I'm sure this happens more often than you'd think. So then he like ten minutes later. He'd text me. He goes it's much worse than I originally thought. And there was a giant brick through his window. And in his rental car, he had like his bag, and which with his MAC book pro and on now, his keys to his car in, you know, New York. Yeah. And. Yeah. So he got them yet sucks. So now, my favorite thing. Did that jerk that sucks? Yeah. You got any other fan? I didn't finish talking about. It's called our our planet or something. So we'll do they I don't understand. They have such high quality footage like polar bears hunting seals. And like how do they get that stuff? Drones. Maybe you know, what is Saddam is Saddam. I understand. It's a circle of life that things have to eat. But it is Saddam that like pullovers are so cute have to eat cute little seals. I know. Yeah. Yeah. I know it sucks. Do you know? You know, what's not Saddam though. And I really liked hearing read the story 'cause I didn't on my show today. Hells like, this is funny. But I think it's hilarious a suspected poacher who is hunting rhino in South Africa was killed by an elephant. And his body was devoured by lions. According to Kruger National Park officials. The remains of a man whose identity was not released was recovered in the crocodile bridge section the park. They were to find him after others who were with the poacher called the man's family to let them know what happened the family, call the park ranger 'em. Put them put out a search party evidence. At the scene suggested a pride of lions had eaten the body, leaving only a human skull and a pair of pants. I love that. Don't go poach freaking rhinos brownouts gets. That's what you get going and beautiful majestic rhinos. Which by the way are endangered. Now and have CEO are and show. No sign of giving anyone a Boehner. You don't grind down. Rhino horn. Get Boehner's you just go. Get Viagra weirdos. And so he was doing that being a jerk. And then a bunch of elephants were like, let's fuck this guy up, and then the bunch elephants went in there sard like mess him around. And then some alliance came in their eight him not want anyone to die. But sometimes karma is a bitch agreed anyways. What's more dope? Ass. Elephants like bullying around a total jerk or lions coming in there. And being like, we know you guys don't eat meat, but we'll do the dirty work of what's what's more, bad ass, elephants or lions in this scenario? I honestly think the bad part about it is that the elephants in lines like having the same goal. He knows. On. They're like, you know, what Ryan has always been cool. You know? Yeah. I don't understand why guys going after rhinos. So you know, what this guy is going down. He's gotta go. Gotta go. I have a favorite LA saying that I been hearing more and more. And I think it's beautiful. Here's a couple of times, or it's like, you know, I I really don't want to. I don't wanna hang out with that person because I'm sensitive to their energy, and their energy kind of doesn't mess Mel of mine, which is the most L as saying I don't fucking like you. But this makes it sounds so much more enlightened. Zende out people like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yours energies dome up. But what you really saying is I fucking hate that person can't stand. You don't come around. But I wanna sound smart at enlightened. So oh, man. I'm sensitive to your energy, bro. Have you heard before is why I don't live in LA, whatever whenever you've lived here before heynen it. I've a book actually, what do you got tell me about? I need a new book because the book I right now, I do not like a mixed review about it. Homina grab it off my desk. Okay. Get it. Oh aunt a why tear sent me a DM with a book recommendation that I'm going to pick up at the airport tomorrow. Okay. So this one it's called sometimes I lie Alice Fini is the author. And so I picked it up because it had an I'm sure they get paid to do this or whatever we should actually still research and find out the truth mind that, but like one of my other favorite authors had had a little light quote on the front that was like that like approves I approve this book. You know what I mean? It's all be Paris. Like, I'm gonna pick this up so doing to read the thing on the back through amber Reynolds wakes up in hospital. She can't move speak or opener is she can hear everyone around her. But they have no idea amber can't remember what happened to her. But she has a sneaky suspicion that her husband is named do with it or maybe her sister or both terrified and trapped inside your own body, amber slowly begins to piece together details from her recent past is she in a coma. Due to an accident is her sister having an affair with her husband. What happened at work with her horrible, boss? And who is the person who was silently visiting her bedside each that sounds like my nightmare. Bright terrifying. It actually like is even more terrifying than that. When you get into it. But the the thing here's the thing. I did like about it. So it's the way it's written is very interesting chapters are either titled then now or before and so you read the before chapters. It's it's like, it's like, dear diary type thing from a little girl and. So you assume it's the same girl. That's narrating. You know? So you're reading through and you're like, all right. So I'm getting a blast saying her childhood and then reading now and she's in hospital, and like whatever, and then it's talks about before the accident. And then it talks about like currently in the coma. So you're getting like three different timelines of this girl's life for what not all the same time. So it's it's just very interesting. And I did like that about it. That was very uniquely written way to write something in my opinion. However, the indicates was like a little too vague for me, it didn't it all the ends didn't get tied together. Quite like, I would've liked it left. It a little too open ended like I like the author. Let's interpret stuff for sure. But like, I don't know. I wanted a little more closure at the end. Yeah. That's my two cents or so you liked didn't love it. Yes. Okay. I'm the good book wreck anyone's got one tweet to me, please. Well, I took a I took a screen shot of the one somebody. Tweeden MIR whatever it's called no exit by Taylor Adams. I'm gonna pick it up off my cousin, actually. That's weird. Weird. Right. Bre shout out to Paul Rudd turning fifty years old on glad that he still drinking the blood of eighteen year old virgin because for whatever reason he looks no older than twenty five pay. Now looks great event. There's so much coming our we're gonna have a lot to talk about and then because GO. And then also the of new vendors movies premiering next week. I know Lacombe out g I gotta go to that too. So I was listening to I can't take credit for this of this is someone else's theory. That I heard that I thought was great. Okay. Listening to a podcast that Dane cook was on love, and I used to love Dan, cook didn't love Dan cook. And the math this interview. I was like, oh, you know, what I think I maybe was little too harsh cook. So his theory on game of thrones really liked it. And I saw was one of my favorite theories of game of thrones. That I wanted to share with the listeners can so he thinks that Dinares in John or going to be killed by her dragon out like that theory. I'm not even just started. Dramatize already. I know, but that content. So he was like that continues. The theme of the child is the murderer of the father or the of the parents, and that continues that theme. So they die the person that wins. The throne is Searcy, Jamie. I hate this theory. Can you just let me say it, and then thing and then Jamie comes back and he has to kill certainty because she crate right Jamie decides. And I'm not sure if this part is Dan cooks or not. But I I don't think it is. But I think this is going to have then I think that Jamie's going to be like I need help. I need my hand the the hand of the king back. So he's going to try to convince Tyrian to come back to be the hand of the king and Tyrians gonna kill Jamie because Tyrian is a target area. He ain't no Lancaster. Tyrian ends up on the throne as the king last thing brand is the night king. He goes one of those trees like in hold onto the roots. And and goes back in time. And remember how the three eyed raven was like if you stay too long underwater, you'll drown you have to let go I. So what Dana saying was he does that? He stays too long his eyes go white 'cause he's like he's gone under gone back in time. And then the Nike grabs him or he grabs night king and his white is turn blue. And then he liking interesting you still don't like that. They're I hate that hearing what do you want to have happened because isn't gonna die? He's died already. Come back to life. He's didn't come back to life. Just dial over again. So I don't like that. I don't like Tyrian killing Jamie, Tyrian loves Jamie, like loves, Jamie. He would never do that. Okay. Where does sonza goes to go and all this and aria? I don't know what's going to happen to aria because she can use so many different faces changes everything. There's also a theory out there that the girl that like would beat her with the stick was actually sunset and then or sorry was what's her name sans? Aria the girl that was beating the stick was actually aria and the girl that killed the girl. The stick was the girl the stick. And it was like they were swift. They switched faces. And at the end of this whole thing the girl the stick is going to be playing all Johnson, John snow and one of their family name the stock's going to be playing all the Starks. Even though she's a faceless person. That's being directed by that that one guy who's taught taught them all be heard that theory before. Now, that's an interesting theory. Yeah. So many theories. All right. I can't think too much about game of thrones. It makes me depressed to hear another one of my favorite things. Yes. I would with the show's on. I had a few fans give me cards while I was on tour. No, they didn't know I believe staring at I know that. It's crazy. So sweet, I could absolutely die. So I decided to give him a cute little shoutout. I tried to find Jen later men on Instagram detailer. Thank you. I couldn't find on Instagram because the only way I think of to find her on Instagram is to search who follows the why podcasts Instagram account, and she either has rename on her Instagram mantle or doesn't follow the account. And I'm here to tell you Jen got a follow up to you count. Because I give a shout out. Why FT podcast on the grand police follow? Yeah. Gives a follow which nobody really, Jen. She wrote me the sweetest car junior says first of all look at says, why if had big litter so cute. And then it says brandy just wanted to pass along a little note on your crazy busy tour. I have been a fan of why of teas since the very beginning. You and wells have the best banter and make every episode. So unique entertaining, you are such a bad ass. Boss, babe. Do whatever you want in so inspiring to twenty four year old just starting out in the real world. Love jen. How sweet is so cute than say a whole long may. But whatever it's fine card is not addressed to you like, we're both the addressed why? And I feel like I'm half of that boat over far she's been listening since day one. That's pretty cool. Cool. Thank you. Right. Okay. And then the other card it's a little bit longer. So I might like paraphrase, but cool it's from Rebecca and Meghan in Toronto. And they started out by saying brand-new, you're one of our favorite things. But did, you know Canadian spell favourite with the, you know, super cool? I'm gonna sorry smelling it that way, not Canadian. But I could be. Okay. So I'm just gonna read the part about otherwise t says just thought this tour couldn't get any better. You join at a does you a bright spot in our week? And we find ourselves constantly hitting our non existent bills along with you in wells when we can stop laughing that is q. Heels dropped a little bit about diamonds that is content and stuff like that which I really appreciated, but she was very sweet. And I just like not that I was actually having a really a day. But even just having a good day like reading fan notes is just so great. Like, it really means a lot. It's amazing to me that people listen to this show and are like into it. I know it makes me feel special. Dumb the show. But I just want to tell them. Thank you that. I did read them, and I reread them today and just wanted again, we'll shout out. We should one point revisit the when we came up with this show the idea in like how it came to fruition where we were what we were doing. 'cause it's silly. It's so sadly, you remember where we were not really. Wow. I do we're at that Mexican restaurant right there midtown that you let. Yeah. What's up? The place all of a cedar. And you're like, I know you love the soup there. Yeah. And you're like you're like number in. You're like wells. All's we need a premise brandy. I would Lewis that combatative combative. But I was like it's a podcast when you the premise, and you were like, but just want to talk about like, whatever I wanna talk about. And I was like, okay. What say that? Yeah. You did. And I was like, okay. We'll the maybe the premises that. We talk about what we wanna talk about. And you were like I love that idea. And I was like, okay. But we need a little bit more. Have what we talking about things that we like in your like even better like we only talk about our favorite things in your like that's great now that same the show. That's how it came out. Kelly. Don't remember that. We'll trip down memory lane. We took a picture we posted about it to the caption was like like figuring out where ways to take over the world or something. Like that idea. Remember that pick? Anyways, I got some music. You got some muzak. Let you go. First Choi, I mean, I will say that like there's a lot great songs out there right now, you know, but like. Valley been about the. Whole town road. I really liked this fruit bat song band fruit bats now. All right. Well, this is very wells band. I would assume you could call it that anyways, this song called the bottom of it. And it's just one that keeps on popping up like in my in my shoes AM in. I don't know what it is about the way. It's got a little bit of a Beatles. Feel to it. I feel like. I don't know what it is. Unless you're did a fine with the lyrics with the melody. But this fruit bats the bothered songs. Like gets me feel real good driving down the street. Arm out the window. And you. So. Yeah. Fruit, bats, the bottom of it digging on it. What are you got real quick? Just want also recognize some way of two years slim idea and this week again and told me how thankful they were that I introduce them Dermott Kennedy because so freaking fantastic. And I know is and they got to go see him in Seattle had so many people text me like, I'm intermittent Sarah show. Thank you for introducing him to us. And I wanted to be like go tell him that. Pretty cool. Pretty cool. That people are like finding music on here actually going to see the artists in concert. I really like that. Yeah. Bre so do you have a song for me? Okay. Well, I have an entire album. Have you listened to Khalid's new album? No, oh my gosh. Well, I have listened to it under Pete since Friday like the whole thing. It's so good. And I liked Khalid. But never been like a massive Khalid fan or anything this album Santa's stick he has the song on there with John Mayer that would probably be my pick to play. And then also the song after that one is called free spirit. And they're both just HOGAN would know albums. Great. Shoot. John Mayer outta my head. Spain. The song self has been popping a bunch in my like released radar stuff a lot. But yeah, outta my. I would John Mayer's is it's great. But it's very much a Jon spends very John Mary to me. I love it play play little bit a free spirit, really like it too ago. Such a good singer, man. Haven't magadan. Again, I would do and then. A memo Cima, Terry. I like that better than outta my head. Not to be rude to John Mayer, your your messiah, but I'm just saying like that. All right. So what's coming up for you? Dude. Some Hannah plane at nine AM to fly to LA doing some pre Coachella events this week and then went on to Palm Springs for the weekend. Oh my God. Unil- ready for all the ferris wheel content of fine with that. But I have no desire to go to that. At all. It sounds nightmare. Sounds like a lot of people pretending to be interested in music, but really interested in. Yes. Seen being interested in music to be honest. I go for the pool time 'cause I need tan here that girl, I'm so pale. I gotta get tan ever. So. Yeah, I'm doing that. And then I'll be back. I'm actually coming back a little early. So I'll be back Sunday. So we can record person I've been stadia amid I fly to Denver for the b show. Denver. And then I'm coming back to LA the last week of April two. So you're going to get a lot of me. Good. I've missed you face. Thanks, and we have Mikhail Houston on the show. Now, why not maybe when he visits, but it's I'm gonna have to leave it up to him. He's just shy. That's fine. I bring out the best in everybody. We'll I'll let it will. How about can you just make a five minute appearance? I don't wanna like Megan after like, totally. I wanna hear what his favorite thing is about you. Okay. And then about like, I don't know the he'd probably watches some weird south ever to don't even know exists. And I know about it they want modern family really the want him to this. So I wanted that. I wanna hear him say his things about you. And this these about my girlfriend, and that's the other day. We were paid time mate. Again, he said the TV on out of nowhere. He's like, oh, Sarah. I'm look. All right, dude. Well, I missed ya. A love ya and come to Ellison tomorrow. All right. My.
Ep. 78. Jespersen, Tanner, and Coole: Sustaining Food Safety Culture
"Hello everyone, and welcome to food safety matters that podcast for food safety professionals I'm stacey. Publisher foodsafety magazine and I'm here with Barbara Van Renter him editorial director and Tiffany may buried digital editor of the magazine. For today's episode were very pleased to welcome back loan Jespersen who is one of our very first guests on the podcast episode three I mean. Early days. Loan is one of the leading voices on food safety culture, and we're proud to have worked with her to publish a series of articles. Now turned into an e book entitled Company Culture and the Path to improved food safety that you can download from the food safety magazine website. For today's interview loan will be joined by Marie Tanner from dairy farmers of America and Neil Cool. Bsi for discussion on food safety culture that focuses on the practical applications of implementing and sustaining of food safety culture. And, of course. Since we're now in the age of Covid, I don't think we're going to be having any discussions that don't talk about some of cove, his of impact on the food industry, and in this case on culture. So you'll want to hear every word. And it's really hard to believe but it's almost September which means that it's almost food safety awareness month. We've had some friends of the podcast reach out to find out what people are doing in our current virtual world. So. How are you bringing awareness to food safety this year we'd love to hear from you so that we can share your ideas with other food safety professionals. So please send us an email to podcast at foodsafety magazine Dot. com, we look forward to hearing from you. All right here we are at the news. What's News Tiffany? In a revised version of the Codex Alimentarius Commissions Global Standard of food hygiene the concept of food safety culture is introduced as a general principle. The European. Commission, defines food safety culture as a concept that enhances food safety by increasing the awareness and improving behavior of employees in food establishments. The European Commission noted that the impact of food safety culture has been demonstrated in several scientific publications. So with the revision of Europe's global, Standard and the expectations of consumers and trade partners that food produced in the EU is in compliance with that global standard, it was necessary to include general requirements on food safety culture in the regulation. I thought it was kind of interesting that when they did this revision, they lumped culture together with food allergen management and the redistribution of food. So they didn't make culture its own special vision, but it took a little bit of hunting to a kind of a fine this regulation in the revision so we tiffany will. Post that in the show notes so that you don't have to go through all. For that. We've done the legwork please I just love it that this one being the same happening all around the same time that we're doing another episode on culture. So I love synchronicity. All right. So And I guess here we have some others more synchronicity to. Some recent articles on our next story. Tiffany the US Food and Drug Administration has announced the voluntary phase out of certain short chain per and. Flora alcohol substances that contain six to flora -til Amir alcohols that are used as grease proofing agents on paper and paperboard food packaging. FDA's announcement came shortly after the agency's scientific review and analysis of data from rodent studies frying bio persistence of six to F T H. While, the findings were in rodents, the data point to the potential that six to f t o h may also persist in humans following dietary exposure. Further scientific studies are needed to better understand a potential human health risks from dietary exposure resulting from unauthorized food contact substances for short chain pizzas that contain six to F T. OH Manufacturers that use these Greece proofing agents obtained authorization through FDA food contact notification process, this premarket scientific review and shirts food contact materials that contain or are made of food context substances are safe for their intended use based on the scientific data that is available at the time of submission. Three manufacturers have already agreed with three year phase out of their sales of compounds that contain six to F. T. O.. Oh. For use as a food context substance in the beginning in twenty twenty one. After the three year phase out, it may take up to eighteen additional months for existing supplies of products containing these food contact substances to be exhausted. FDA will monitor the progress of the phase out of food contact notifications using annual updates provided by these three F mentioned manufacturers. Those manufacturers have also agreed to supply FDA with samples of each of the authorized food contact substances. In case, future analysis is needed. Oh I love science. So I found. A study that was performed in cultured breast cancer cells I kinda wanted to see what? They think the exposure from these Pe-, foss compounds could be. And one study suggested that they had at Estra Genyk. Effects. So A lot of environmental toxins are thought to be involved in as endocrine regulator. So There's no in Vivo study. So in Vivo, in the live animal studies suggesting this but. This was a study and culture breast cancer cells that revealed. That estrogen responsive genes was a higher expression of these genes. after exposure of the cells to these six, two and six eight. Flora telomere alcohols, which suggests that maybe the six to compound is not the only thing that FDA should be looking at I'm not sure if the eight to alcohol is used in in packaging but that would be something interesting to investigate so. Did I say I love science. It was lovely. We love that you love science. So, you don't have to love. That I love science and scientists I. Mean I think that it's you know we can't be good at everything. So I'm very grateful that there are people who are in thusly inclined. Such as yourself. Thinking of science we've got some. We've got some more. We've got some more science right here right at fresh fresh more fresh science len make lands borough a University of Massachusetts Amherst. Food scientists has been awarded a four, hundred, thirty, four, thousand, two, hundred, fifteen dollar grant from the US. Department of Agriculture is National Institute of Food and Agriculture, I just have to say that fifteen bucks I wonder if she had to account for that like immediately indirectly like. was at the box of paper that went with. She was going to do a she was going to do a pizza party for her lab except that Umass decided a week ago that they were gonna go online only. And by yourself themed So with those funds, show work to develop an oil based system to clean and sanitize food processing equipment without water reducing the high risk of Salmonella contamination associated with nuts. Make Lancero says that cleaning commercial peanut butter and other net pace facilities is especially challenging since the presence of liquid in the processing environment can promote growth and survival of microorganisms. Her novel approach to sanitizing peanut butter processing plants with cleaning oils would allow factories to be more easily safely and quickly cleaned with oil based solutions versus based agents, which currently require a plant shutdown for nearly a week complete a proper cleaning. She says, the food industry has a high need for non water based cleaning. The plan is to develop invalidate the effectiveness of innovative technologies for non acquiesce cleaning and sanitizing, focusing on combining a variety of organic acids to create oil-based antimicrobial solutions. mcclelland's boroughs award was one out of Nineteen Food Safety and defense grants totaling eight million dollars. Yeah. You Mass. Now I think it's great that you know we get releases from from academic institutions about the innovative work that's going on and food safety and would encourage. All you academics out there to let us know what you're up to. So we can talk about it. I kind of want to find out what all these other nineteen ones. Maybe we could find a link to all the other grants to that might be interesting. So yeah, there's a link to everyone who received. So I can include that in the show notes. Cool. Cool. The last story that we were going to cover today was yet another report out of China that food had tested positive for corona virus. This time it was chicken wings from Brazil. But then. The American, frozen food institute reached out to Barbara to invite her to join Sanjay Gamaa. Senior Vice President of scientific affairs with Athey. Some of you may remember him from Episode Fifty Seven and Dr Leeann Jacobs William Neal Reynolds distinguished professor in the Department of food bioprocessing and nutrition sciences at North. Carolina state. University. Another pass guest episode seventeen. To discuss how athey teamed up with North. Carolina. State University to conduct a scientific literature review to understand the nature of survival and persistence of SARS. Kobe to the virus that causes covert nineteen in foods and on food contact surfaces and food packaging materials and the potential for foodborne transmission. I think you might understand that we decided just be more beneficial to use our time today the let you know that this'll be coming from athy. That we're working with them to distribute the discussion via a food safety matters bonus episode very soon. So watch our feed for that. For All. Of this news more, don't forget to visit our podcast page on food safety magazine Dot. com where you can see show notes for today's episode to keep up with even more news entrench you can always follow us on facebook twitter and Lincoln just searched for food safety magazine. Okay. Now, it's time for the main event. Barbara's interview with Loan Jespersen, Marie Tanner and neo cool on the important topic of food safety culture. Loan Jespersen is a principal at cultivate an organization dedicated to helping food manufacturers globally make safe great tasting food through cultural effectiveness. Loan has significant experience with food manufacturing having previously spent eleven years with Maple Leaf Foods following the tragic event in two thousand eight when Maple Leaf products climbed twenty three Canadian lives loan led the execution of the Maple Leaf Foods, food safety strategy, and its operations learning strategy. Loan holds a Master's degree in mechanical engineering from Dansk University Denmark a masters and PhD in Food Science from the University of Wealth Canada and most importantly, loan is a member of the Food Safety Magazine Editorial Advisory Board. Marie Tanner joined dairy farmers of America in two, thousand seventeen. She is currently the senior vice president of food safety and quality prior to DFA, Murray was the global chief food safety and Q h. s. e. officer carry, and prior to joining Kerry Marie held various quality leadership roles for Pepsico and Godiva. Re holds an MS and food science from Rutgers University and formerly served on the board of S Safe a global nonprofit working to integrate food safety, animal health, and plant health across food supply chains, and also served on the board of directors for the International Society of Beverage technologists or. Less. We not have enough acronyms I, S bt. Then we have neil cool. WHO's director of food and retail supply chain at BSI. America's. Prior to his current role. At Bsi, he was with B. R. C. Global Standards as the head of their global key account strategy engaging key industry brand owners, manufacturers, and retailers to understand their requirements from risk solutions perspective. Neal was also the subject matter expert on B. R. C., global standards, new strategy on food safety and quality culture excellence presenting at numerous industry. And working with manufacturers on how to embed a culture of food safety neil join SL in two thousand, eighteen as director food and retail supply chain for America's focusing on organizational resilience culture excellence, and holistic risk management solutions for organizations in the food and retail supply chain throughout the Americas. One of the most interesting points of our conversation was learning about their recommendations for how companies can combat complacency. When it comes to their food safety culture, they have allotted great a practical practical suggestions for how to do that and I know that a talking to people at a lot of different companies. Complacency is always a big challenge. Well. I have to just reiterate how pleased we are to to work with loan to have her on our board and to be able to continue to put forth her work as she advances. This this important discipline so Here's that interview now. I I'd like to welcome the three of you to the podcast today. Loan you one of our earliest podcast guests speaking on food safety culture. So a special welcome back to you in this continuing dialogue of food safety culture with a special emphasis today on how to implement. Great questions. So let's get started. I guess I place to start to bring our listeners into the room with us is how does the culture of a company really influenced food safety and maybe loan you could start us off here. Yeah of Barbara Thank you so much for the for the invitation and for the opportunity Big Fan of you guys get food safety magazine getting the message out there to everybody. I think. It's a great place to stop because we do talk about food safety culture or cultural food safety and I think we need to realize that. It's it's it's we need to think about food safety in the context of organizational culture and how our organizational culture influences what we do with food safety and I'll give you maybe just a couple of examples on that. So if we have an organizational culture that's very financially or oriented. At the expense of. Discussing and managing risks, being proactive in planning. For new changes for food safety, and then we would typically see when we go and measure that culture as a very immature culture. So one way or there's a everybody's reacting and food safety lives very much within the food safety and quality department as as opposed to across the company on the other end of that spectrum if we have an organizational culture that is a very plentiful. Is Very oriented towards looking and searching challenging whether we have the right risks that we're dealing with and managing on an ongoing basis. Then we would typically see their assessment of their food safety culture at the higher end of maturity model and a situation where a food safety lives in all functions, it's been embedded in all roles so that it's relevant form. So if I'm on the front line is relevant to me, versus if I'm the CEO, it's been position. So that is relevant for me as well. So I think Barbara. We probably need to start shifting our mindset a little bit around and say that it's really Oh. Culture that drives how we react and act on food safety. That will that will be my perspective on that. But I know that we've got Marie ten on the line and an and Marie has some really good examples for very large organizations and I'm sure she's got some interesting perspectives on this. I mean one thing that I really found is that the company's cultures really created by the tone set at the top which influences the values, assumptions, and practices and societal values of the collective workforce also influence overall culture, and it really gets embedded into the DNA and what I found is that you have to make sure base level that you haven't engaged inclusive -clusive and collaborative workforce with a solid foundation of trust you really can't build a food safety culture when you have a low maturity model lack of trust collaboration and accountability and I really found that companies with low maturity of levels typically have deep-rooted autocratic leadership styles that foster almost like a complacent workforce. So. I mean, it's really dependent on what exactly your culture is. In how it's been driven from the top. The L. You have some thoughts. Very, much echoing the points from from Loan Marie. AM obviously the what we've been doing been more focused on the organization so. Looking at organizational resilience and how the topic of culture. Gibson Organization, a competitive edge as long as the organisation sees from the the leadership piece, how it helps with a coherent approach to their that their organization on other areas of risk. We've seen a lot of great work in. Evolving standards over the years and oversee. That's that's quite important to an organization by moving away from procedure getting into process and then more recently focusing behaviors and the important role of an organization understanding that you know embracing its culture and understanding it's in coaching empowering stopped do more. For the benefit as is actually a competitive advantage for them. So it's a very, very important topic and something that we've been very very close to, but is also under the. Band resilience. If we can help organizations, understand the value that it can actually bring. It does give them a distinct advantages and you know producing staff attrition and improve the quality of the products they producing. But we want it to be seen as a competitive advantage for those organizations that understand the maturity model understand where they are in the journey that need to work on on understanding, implementing in continuously improving their culture fit safety. You know it's really interesting When you think about loan, you mentioned being proactive and and having a plan in place. I've noticed in our reporting of companies food company stirring this pandemic that were almost shifting back to a reactive mindset when we don't have agency inspectors going out into plants to do those types of audits and inspections. There aren't as many things being caught. So to speak, you know when you look at the numbers of of things that are usually recognized and identified. how much more challenging. I is this particular. That were in to getting companies to prioritize their culture. It's an interesting question, Barbara and. I would. I would actually argue that I'm not sure we're shifting back to a reactive culture. I'm not sure we really moved out of it in many cases and and the reason why I'm saying that is the second part that you said we've been much reliant on external triggers and to focus on food safety and quality, and and to me, that is very much in the rooms of the definition of a reactive culture an and I think. What we're experiencing with clients in this in the time of crisis globally is that there's almost two camps or two groups of that. Cams companies fall into. One is this similar to what you're describing and being caught on the back foot. By now, we have this invisible enemy and and we need to react to it, and we need to do that really really quickly and we're putting short-term. Actions in place to maintain that an enemy am, and then then you have the other camp or the other group of companies that are an had a much stronger risk oriented culture as I mentioned before and And the looking at this to say, okay now we are crisis. Manual kicks in gear. Everybody is aware of what needs to happen here, and we're wrapping our arms around in pros so that everybody can feel safe and to to build on Murray's point and trust that as a company a going to keep them safe so that we can in turn all of us put out safe products to our consumers. So so I think to me, I'm much seeing two camps of companies and and my only hope is that those that fall into the first camp and will really. T, take take the opportunity here that covert has presented. To learn from it to say, Hey, we were caught. and. We all understand that. Now, how can we prevent that from happening? Go forward with other types of risks that that would be That I'm crossing my fingers for that one. Worry, what have you been seeing? What I found overall is that when you're dealing with with cove, it's actually brought a lot of the teams together and they are very proactive. They've engaged their crisis-management full force and I think it's also taken a lot of companies at least talking to some colleagues pause and seeing how they proactively manage risk on the front end because this is something that's relatively new. So I actually think it might be a distracted but I actually think it's been positive for a lot of cultures and that's different companies at least that's her my thoughts when I'm hearing from my colleagues. Now, what are things sounded like in your neck of the woods? Yeah I would have to agree with with lone a we've seen Patients really caught off guard in multiple areas I. mean looking at how it's impacted the the workers how we've reclassified a number of them positions in the industry is now essential workers frontline workers whereas pre pandemic. People were developed a different classification for them. We're seeing those organizations that have actually been caught out there to go through site closures that have unfortunately lost people is really caught them off guard because they weren't prepared for, and again, the term resilience is used more often than not. But behind that that level that is is, is the people what we've been discussing a number of organizations around the world. On this important topic is keeping people safe means that people see that those individuals can keep the food safe. So again, about empowering and embracing a positive culture and As Marie. Quite rightly said you know there all these organizations out there that have really been well perpetual that we say in that as well, and we're learning a lot from what they've done well But again, a alternate behind the scenes, the these things will always constantly challenges. There will always be the next disruption that people need to be prepared for the topic of continuity comes into place but all these topics ultimately are meaningless without a an effective organizational culture. Embraced an embedded in those individual organization. So it's not a reactive mind, Sir and as long set those companies out there are Embracing the importance of organizational culture, and then from that, it starts with food safety. Fantastic. But if you starts with food safety than it can bleed into other areas around health and safety or environmental impacts, and so and there's no negative for it and again I keep making the point when we're discussing this with organizations changes a positive thing we do receive some resistance from organizations in. Various levels in the in the company that change can be disruptive and bad and we were. In. The standards very familiar with a deming cycle of continuous improvement check acts and and we do like to a one very. Meaningful statement from W Edward. Deming in that is in a change is not necessary because survival is not mandatory softwares Organiz ation that don't embrace positive change in we do. Awesome. Can you think of a competitor that was in your industry ten fifteen years ago? The isn't that today and then we start discussing while they're not there anymore and ultimately it comes down to opole organizational. Culture and a lack of resilience. So want we want to be seen as a positive is competitive edge. It will help those organizations, implement better practices and protect their people, but at the products and ultimately deliver safer products for industry moving forward. Now, I'm going to play devil's advocate here a little bit with you nail because twice you've said competitive advantage and the mantra is always that food safety is not a competitive advantage. So do you ever get any pushback when you talk to organizations and use that type of terminology we do absolutely and it's understandable for that pushback. But the point me make is food safety culture is an actually about food safety is about people and if we can. Reduce the level of staff attrition and loss of corporate memory loss. When you lose good people who've been doing a great job in a particular area, all of these things have adare cost and an indirect cost of those organizations, and also if you're conveying a message of the positive cultural food safety to your customers, whereas the your competitors may not be again is a competitive edge edges is just position in a leadership position. Some of the things that we my colleagues spend all of our time with his is working with those leadership teams to support the food safety teams to make sure that it is not just seen as a technical area of focus, but it benefits every part of the organization. So it should be part of that the the living breathing. Entity that they are, and that's the role that culture plays and we do find that organizations here culture and think that it's a fluffy hate chart topic and not to be discussed in the boardroom but it is a fundamental pillar under the organizational resilience framework. You can't have an effective organization with a poor organizational culture and there's no shortage of evidence to support. What we're saying is by having a positive culture, cultural food safety embedded in the organization, and then understanding the advantages of continuous improvement there's really no downside to it. In you make some really excellent points particular. Around The culture is really about the people. and I was thinking as you spoke earlier that if you have Folks working on the line who were more afraid for their own health and wellbeing. If it's not if that's not a priority by the company, they're going to be distracted and they're not going to be. As aware of the task that they're supposed to be doing to keep the food safe. So everything is very connected. Papa sherm. If I can just add a point to two neal's answer there to you. I think we need to realize that when we say food safety is not a competitive advantage that am it's it's absolutely true when it comes to and if I have a better way of designing and implementing in a my environmental monitoring program and I'm in the dairy industry similar to Marie and I would share any of that with Marie. But fundamentally how effective that program is going to be is entirely up to the culture that you now implemented into. And that to me is where the competitive advantage also comes in because amb as Marie explained and as I. Position Those two points on where company cultures can be at. Am One company is going to get more out of that EMP program than the other. And I think that is reality and I think that's the strength of culture and I think that's why we cannot just look at food safety culture something. That's the right thing to focus on. It is also something that will make your company is Stronger Company and differentiate your company from somebody else so I think do need to include that in the conversation right? That's absolutely right at Barbara I just wanted to kind of bring up a point here I will say one pushback I've had over the years with a cultural qualities. Culture? Safety Culture of quality. Culture. Foodsafety a culture. It's really about a culture of excellence. It's about delivering the best you can and all those aspects in trying to drive that and I, think sometimes when you try to push that, you get more buying from senior leaders. Because they just feel like sometimes it's another flavor of the month because you do have behavioral Bay Safety and Culture Safety So how do you tell that together? So it doesn't look like an additional program but more of a way of working right now it's an excellent point. You know it pre pandemic at conferences. I would talk to people about in a wet when someone was speaking for example, in a room about food safety culture and they knew that it was important. but I've had people tell me that they really didn't know how to do it. Quote Unquote how to implement it or change it or you know what it look like on a practical level So I'd like to ask each of you y you think actually implementing culture has been such a challenge to companies loan if you like to start us off yet but I think we just need to get one thing straight before we get into that and it's not about implementing. By the definition, you get a group of people together. There's a culture and by the sheer definition of being a group of people in the Food Industry that decides to make a profit making food for others a you now have a food safety culture or you have food safety as potter fueled National Culture. So I think that's An. Important. Distinction from implementing one because one of the reasons why it's really challenging for some companies to create change in their culture is that we we the mandate to the the quality and food safety to now you need to do something with this whole topic of food safety culture and a plan is devised and it becomes. A project to implement something. It is. A far will constructive way to say, Hey, we're here not to implement something. We're here to change something, and that means that we have to understand what we have already. So what are the assumptions are the GNOMES around food safety in the context of our organizational culture? Are they good enough? DO THEY PUT US at risk? Where do we need to focus to create change and to improve and then a pri- really just really basic change management principles as we know from other. Areas and to that that food safety change and I think that a now we're starting to to reach into the toolbox of we have to have a guiding coalition or in other words, we have to have a group of people that can help steer this change we're reaching in and saying well needs to be important to the organization. So this change initiative have to be somewhere it has to be included in the other priorities for the organization and also it has to be visible. and. Those are just three things that make for successful change and for change not to fall into that seventy percent of of change initiatives fail to deliver the intended outcome that we know from Carter. We know from Kellyn Shannon from their work in two thousand sixteen it's still an incredible high rate of failure. For Changing, institute to actually do with their set out to do so I think. Am I increasingly speak with companies about managing and leading change as opposed to talking about. Implementing food safety culture I think that it might sound Barbara like is something theoretical or it's a it doesn't make a difference actually makes a huge difference when you talk about it s a change initiative because now it becomes about people's behaviors, mindsets and attitudes. That's a really interesting point. Marie, you have some thoughts. Just, a really kind of mimic a lot of the things that loan just said it's really about trying to change culture and behaviors to enable of food safety culture and and I agree with on their when you talk about implementation, people really get wound up and it really becomes a priority just for the food safety and quality group you really need to get buy. In from all of management on this so I think it's really important to just try to work on a few aspects of the culture maybe focused on just trying to change a few behaviors But I, think it's Guinea by in from everyone regarding that and what needs to be changed and what are the potential blockers entrusting no, you have some thoughts to share. Again. Just echoing the the points that loan and Marie of made. I. Mean we found conferences people saying I must get a cultural food safety as well. If you're in the food industry and you have people, you have a culture food safety, you need to understand that and also understand that food safety culture is not A Solo sport a team for the team's bowl. No different from the Hassib implemented it has a plan. that. That's a team based approach but we we just share information on some of the people that you know other organizations in in different cities if industry that have faced a similar challenge on things like health and safety culture. They would implement things regarding a team based approach where they would have hate Shaw and hate shaw are there because they're ultimately there to manage people and resources would involve marketing because they're very good communication obviously the the quality team, the food safety team, your team, and you'd have a silver sponsor, and that team itself would be the food safety culture team much like other industries have put in health and safety culture teams is got to be a team based approach that the food safety can't just limit the you know the participation for the quality in the food safety. Representatives because you know, Walsh they have an incredibly important role to play is more of a a team based approach that that will drive positive change and when you organizations understand that the common factor in failures that occur within the business on those failures carry a cost, a non-conforming product, a product downtime. Recall the common factor behind the vast majority of them as people someone someone something wrong for a measurable reason, and if you can measure that and understand and improve that you can mitigate those occurrences in future, which will save you know the organizations money Not, not not to. Remove the importance of what we're ultimately working towards here but to gain the kind of commitment and buying from senior leadership at the time that the awesome very pertinent questions around what's in it for the organization what's the Roi? What's the commercial advantage, and if they understand that, then we do see that kind of commitment and that's really the point is food safety culture is team sport is something that everyone needs to play an important role in and make it inclusive you know it, it occurs to me That part of this is about semantics and certainly implementation from what the three of you are saying is really a trigger, a negative trigger that if you really want to affect the kind of changes that you're after. You have to kind of finesse the message a little bit. So when you're first talking with the company, how do you help them assess what the culture is at that point in time and then how do you? Where they need to get to what's the process if you could take us? Yes. Oh. Barbara if. If I, just I can share with you what we do from cultivate perspective. We assess a company's. Culture food safety using three different data sets. The, we don't rely on on a survey on either some very strong biases in in serving only. We do rely on. So S V plus some focus groups and interviews because as Marie said in the beginning it when we're talking about culture where we're diving under the hood of of how everybody believes the company prioritizes food safety and we gotta get into conversation to to pick some of that up and. An and there's a lot. There's a lot of talk about assessments and I have to I have to say that I'm from shooting yourself in the foot here but. The, real work stops when you've acknowledged that in these are the this strengthen the weaknesses in our culture. Now, how do we prioritize an love? Marie said before pick a couple of actions pick a couple of places to create change. Do not go into and fall into this trap of a three page long font size nine action plan to change your culture over the next twelve months rain. But I've seen so many of those end and it is doomed for failure because it's an. Eat it creates. So it takes a lot to change people's attitudes and beliefs no matter how well intended they are. So pick a couple of areas and the assessment cannot Wesley help you with that and but but but before you start going into selecting those couple of actions, thing about do you actually if you are the champion if you are the one that's leading this this focus do you have? That guy guiding coalition and we work with companies to do a change readiness assessment before you even go into an assessment or actioning a change to your culture. Are you actually as an organization ready to create change in this particular area and one of the key parts to that readiness assessment is? Is there a guiding coalition or are we talking about that? It's something that a food safety and quality? Leader has to put a check in the box because in that case. It it's probably a different level of of engagement that we need to have with you. So I'm not sure I'm being very clean answer here Barbara. Yeah they go. To add to that I really agree with a lot of the points that you made loan i. mean it really depends on where your company is on the maturity model right. Companies with a low maturity model might even benefit with starting with something as simple as an engagement survey and find areas of opportunity with the overall workforce people have to respect and trust one another before they embark on raising the maturity with an organization I think it's really important to have an engaged workforce and build pride in your brand so. It just really depends on the maturity model of your company to where you really start out with us. Some of this might be really basic just building trust and trying to get out of the silo mentality before really even you know beginning exercises to up your food safety culture. Yeah, I think that's a marine. That's that's a really good point and. Having been one of the recipients of of the engagement survey survey results in my previous job. Am I found them highly underutilised M. The could be so much more don with it and and you can even in most cases, you can probably add a couple of questions in there to to him to also probe for food safety and quality, and so I I I think that's a really that's really sensible. Point is Neil would you like to add anything? Not, really to change. marie-eve said the one thing that we've seen. With. The cost of some of the what we've done in other areas of risk when they`ve Tried to change an organizational change affect positive change in an organization's culture. The surveys as lone. Said, you know that that's a tool in the toolbox but one of the things that we've seen is organization sometimes suffer from survey fatigue. And they feel that their voice isn't actually heard. So when we worked on similar projects and created team, there is the marketing representation in the HR representation there those other departments within the business understanding importance of actually feeding information back. So you said we heard his we're going to do is that right and then make it more inclusive in the communication. So it is open inclusive. To everybody those kind of things have happened in the past and it's understandable why but understanding how a change in that kind of approach with more collaborative communication internally benefits everybody and then you start funding those champions, those individuals in the business that passionate about the organization and what they stand for, and really want to put the hand up and do more These are the people. That you know you want us around and that the future leaders as it were for these these kinds of initiatives. Neil you really hit it right on the head there When you do these surveys, I think we're a lot of companies fails they just take him for Begum Right I think it's important to create focus groups and Gil with smaller groups and really kind of. Get at the root of driving it because what we may perceive as an issue, they may perceive something completely differently just to give an example than old accompanied that we did a a survey was a CB survey for a culture of quality and One thing that we is at this one company said, they did this one plant said that they didn't really agree with our. Messaging around quality, and so we didn't really understand that was we took that on that. Maybe the quality group wasn't having the proper messaging. When we had the focus groups, it was because they didn't like their break room their break room wasn't didn't reflect the company's values. So is vitally important to Kinda dig into that and find out what's going on because you get a lot more insights as opposed to just take a survey at face value. That's a really interesting point. It was curious whether you have found that. For companies with an immature culture. Do you find that there really like coming around to realize that they need to make these changes in response to some sort of crisis at the company or outbreak or food safety event or are they coming to this decision? Organically. There's a lot of good research out there am around organizational culture and why senior Decide to change the organizational culture and it's ninety nine percent of the time because of external pressure. And and and I think there's a three reasons why a business decides to a put emphasis on changing the food safety and in the context of the culture and one is a crisis I agree with you. Bob Graham. There's there's some unfortunate situations out there and and where organizations have really taken they're. Taking the the task very serious and created some great change because of that. Then I do think it's because of these, an external stakeholders be that regulators. Third. Party auditors customers who are starting to put new expectations on a food company and and then I think thirdly, it's because there's a visionary leaders of we've got one on the call today. Who Says Gina what Eh for us to be proactive and manage the risks that we deal with uniquely to our products and processes, and we have to look at how people perceive safety, how they behave and their attitudes around food safety, and let's look into. Food Safety and in the context of organizational, culture. I really. I really think that people and we work with clients in all three categories. So it I, don't think there's Necessarily one way of getting into focusing on making change and. We we see companies in all three of these different situations in those early stages of maturity as well. Yen and Barbara. One thing I. would say with the low maturity Culture I think sometimes it's important to go in and. Bring in some new blood people from with at different aspects. Look at things a little bit differently. You could change the mindset a little bit. It's really hard to walk into a legacy organization and tried to drive change when what they've worked in the past always been successful to them and they don't know what they don't know So it's important to have diversity in thought we always. Talk about diversity inclusion. But I think diversity of thought is imperative to really try to drive at a change in culture because you have to get buy in from multiple levels in the organization. So you need people that aren't programmed in one way of thinking and have group. Thank you need to have some diversity there. Sure. Neil. How has be SL help these lower maturity organizations. Kind of progress. To have. Improvements and changes in their culture. A very good question bubba, the the weather which wanted to do first and foremost share information So there's a lot of information that's available I mean we got some great information from the cultivate website talking about the maturity levels. So organizations know what kind of language to use, and the Position Paper that was put together with with with GSI, which again provides a very helpful framework the challenge that we've got with some of the smaller organizations. As already been touched on is resource. So if you took into the food safety. Contact as it were that they may not have such a large pool of resource around them to help. So again, you know bringing in outside ideas and sharing examples of how to get things started. It is certainly something that we like to do to help, and another important point is a lot of the time. They just need some training Again, you know we've had a lot of people in the industry say, well, you know. I don't need any training on Hassett Oklahoma trade in you know fifteen years ago, and then one way to have a positive conversation with him is awesome. A question. Do you think metal detection technologies changes in the last fifteen years and if the answer's Yes. Well, maybe a refresher course might be of advantage. So it's again passing on the message that there is training available, it can help them on the journey is is very low cost. And it is something that can be quite inclusive for their for their their colleagues in the business, and also as Marie and loan forty said is learned from what's going on in the Industry today I mean we've got some organizations that have already begun. Quite a long way down that journey towards a cultural food safety there's a lot of information available and learning from those in discussing these things with industry is another great way. All role is effectively to find out how can we help them where today what support to they need moving forward, and what role could we players a as a solutions partner? Just to make the community of aware of. The. What's going on in partnership with with Lone Marina, a wider community of of industry peers is to. Show that we are actually in the process of developing a publicly available specification or as. which is designed to be a how to guide. Support Industry on the journey towards implementing understanding measuring and improving a culture of food safety and for those familiar with standards like FCC, twenty, two thousand, they may remember back to see certain. Documents such as past to twenty, which was the prerequisite surround food safety is exactly the same kind of thing. But instead of being on food safety, it's pre is. To Guide on food safety culture. So if anybody would like to know more to get involved or be aware of what what's happening I would just awesome to make contact with me with loan with Meriem we'll be happy to share information with them. And will make sure that we put that information in our show notes for this episode as well. Thank. You know the three. The three of you have a describe situations at companies where change is hard. And I think a lot of people. Are negatively disposed to making change and would like to keep doing what they've been doing and have this sense of complacency in their job. What are some practical actions that can be taken by companies to get beyond this complacent mindset and really create change? This two things that I I think companies could consider and play around with One is this concept of middle up down. So middle up down and where. We today in fit companies often see that am strategic developments and. Implementing strategy is is typically just down. And Marie and I are working on a paper that will have out shortly. And and it's it's really addressing the issue of the middle. Managers. So, what is it that we can? What can we unleash in our companies by better utilizing middle manages around food safety and quality, and and and the the the uptown is all around saying that middle managers to take ownership of a new strategy and direction for the company really has to be. Part of the voice that's heard in developing strategies and the down is obviously then middle managers have tremendous. Influence over whether frontline teams. Take serious and if they feel that they trust the middle managers to ask questions and raise issues and so so I think better utilization better better. Understanding way you middle manages are at and how you and in how you allow them to partake both up and down I think that's really important and the the other. Point I would make Baba's We we see a lot of food safety measures or metrics or KPI's that never changed regardless or sorry regarded Lim try that. Again, we see a lot of food safety metrics that never change regardless of the maturity of a company's food safety culture and and that in itself is is just a waste of metrics because metrics say are are there to see how you performing and and to. Highlight, if there are some some changes needed Roy issues happening and you metrics have to evolve with your culture. So if you have in a very reactive culture, measuring something like a cost to poor-quality can actually be very counterproductive because it now shifts the focus from the risk you managing over to can we save money potentially whereas a measure like Akasa quality highest stage of maturity three, four five and is very productive in. Metric and can drive some really proactive behaviors as well. So I would say middle managers really unleash all all of that potential that sitting there, and also a look at how you metrics or measures are actually a driving the behaviors that you are looking for to move yourself forward on the maturity. Model. I would agree that's where most of it breaks down as at the middle management level it's typically not at the top everybody wants to emphasize and drive the right culture and I would say the floor they're always eager to do the right things, but they model behaviors. So they model the behaviors of the middle management. So I think it's really important to us consequences to drive behaviors have leadership emphasis and make sure that the middle management is is pushing is driving the same influences that they are from the. Top and and it's really important. Mean alone is brought this up in the past. It's really important to educate. The wise I find helps build a right culture to on a lot of people on the floor and even in middle management they just don't want to hear you need to drive this just to do it. But if they hear why were doing that that usually builds more followership and and Marie if I can add to to what you're saying and I don't know if you would agree. But. Having those nicely produced videos of senior executive talking about the importance of food safety they're actually relatively simple changes compared to mobilizing that middle management level. So so I also think it's about just going back to the principles of change management. What do you need? What guiding coalition? Do you need to be able to help you middle manages change and for your leaders to see lead US outside the middle management. Group. Sees the potential and importance of that group. So so I think. I see a lot of activities in companies, words about that senior executive level and and. That changes not the hardest one again at borrowed. Also argue that it's not the most impactful I do believe that is that Middle Management levelness. Saying as well. Now, I would agree it's it's the operations directors in a plant managers. It's vital to have it at that level. If you don't have it there, it's not going to happen. Now Now Loan. What you're saying reminds me of a story that you told was probably almost two years ago. Now I think Of A woman that that I I WANNA say was in some sort of management position on the plant floor and she saw someone. On the floor without a hairnet and she just went and tackled her. You know maybe I'm not I'm certainly not telling it correctly. But if you could tell that story, it really illustrates I think the idea of really engaging the workers so that they understand why the tacit they're being asked to do were important and Barbara I love that you're you're you're taking three of my stories and pulling into one. I love that. I. Think the one you're referring to is an Australian produced company and I was on the floor with. With their plant manager and we were walking the floor and and these two. People were working on on a sorting line, and some of the Relief Greens had had fallen on the floor on one of the to the workers had a red Hannett on the other one had blue one in this particular plant Redmond that you in training. And Blue meant that you were trainer you a buddy you were you had to some extent been certified into that role. And and the the the One lady with Red Hannett she and her name was mindy she she bent down and she picked up some of the leafy Greens off the floor and she wanted to put them back and the other lady. Almost did tackle her Bob Rae. You're quite right. And And it was to avoid that she would put this potentially contaminated leafy green onto the sorting belt and then she she. Saying Hey. In training get that but this is absolutely not accept on. Here's why I think to me the strength in what I observed when I was end one was I a couple of steps bag out of fear for this? Brutal hand and but but it's really about. What Bendy didn't do this because she wanted to put anybody at risk. She did this because she didn't want product to be wasted I m t she didn't. She didn't do this hour spite she didn't do it because she wanted to hurt somebody that was to eat this product. She just had not put the two together as for why that could cause some some issues around food safety. So and obviously the the the late in the Blue Hannett was was very attuned to and felt very strongly about what was acceptable and why. But I think to me it really just hit home as for anything that we do when it comes to focusing culture and and food safety is to make sure that that happens as much as possible that varies situation happens as much as possible because that's where we can stop. In newly formed a attitudes and perceptions from from being the wrong ones and. I'll never be in that planned again, I'm sure without some kind of body armor. And India. Australia and I just remember when you told that you know how great it would be to. You know get a hold of the people on the floor who feel so strongly about the work that they're doing and that. This was her. Response. And I. Think we had talked you know at at the time about trying to assemble some of those people to tell their stories I think would be really power. I I agree with that an I an. And I think we we. We have to tell some of those positive stories where we have to. We have to shine the light on that. Twice as bright as anything else because we are and. We're at time here but Marina, we've we've worked. This is through this together in a previous job and. We are a group funny. Group is food safety professionals will like the last dog in the pound to get adopted. Right nobody loves US where sitting Cornyn and were sort of yeah. No. This is just were just bad people and not bad people what great people. And we have to celebrate when we see those those great babies weren't so. As we wrap up, today. In a once. These organizations have made changes in their food safety culture. What piece of advice do you have for companies for how to further, improve and mature their culture and to sustain those changes? Neil one we start with you. Thanks. Bye both think the most important message that we always look to convey when discussing the topic of organizational culture food safety culture. A cultural food safety with any organization is a suggestion destination and is very, very important than organizations understand that if you're going to succeed in this and actually enforce positive change in the business, and ultimately in the industry, it has to be a mindset of continuous improvement. I've spoken with a number of organizations over the years on this topic and is very exciting space in wished work and I do love working with the individuals at these organizations. It's really about enforcing that that mindset around you not doing this to pass an audit that's going to occur once a year doing it for a certificate or a badge on the wall, you're doing it to embed the principles of what your organization actually believe. So what what is your vision is your Viviana, your mission statement what is it? That's courtier. Organization and then how can we move into more empowerment inclusivity and behavioral based activities within the organization but the ultimate messages that is a team sport is journey is not a destination and is the future for our industry and ultimate. The goal is to keep our public safe for their intended purpose to reduce the likelihood of occurrence and ultimately keep people safe. Marine you have some thoughts. Sure. One of them. I think it's really important for food safety and quality be part of the overall corporate strategy. It needs to be a pillar to be delivered against sometimes it's buried in a lot of companies in the strategy and I think balanced metrics are important. You can't have the right culture if procurement is measured primarily on cost. Savings operation on productivity in on time in full in quality on non conformance and right I times you metrics can cause conflict. So it's really important to align metrics. Then it's vital that upper management walk the talk and drive the right behaviors and what I found to be really is I've been with very low maturity companies and companies that are very high maturity and I. Feel like building a sense of brand loyalty you if you're producing ingredients or commodity is essential because I would say when I worked at Pepsico Nice, spent the majority of my career there it was all about the brands. No one would do anything to compromise the brand in fact, many of us when even consumer competitor's product in persuaded our friends to patronize the products we. Produced. So if you could build that sense of pride on the brand it's a lot easier because you'll will naturally default to a culture of food safety and quality because every will be aligned protecting the brand. So I think it's trying to get that which is very challenging when it comes to ingredient companies and companies that are commodity based. So Neil, any final remarks? The point that was made earlier regarding engaging various levels of leadership in an organization at one we would like to ask is what their current visibility of risk and issues is within the within their business today. When we share information around the pyramid visibility through the various levels of. Hierarchy in an organization is quite surprised in the reactions that we see. From senior leadership being aware of around four percent of the next level down around nine percent supervisory seventy, four percent. But the only people in the organization that see everything going on from a risk issue perspective is the frontline staff. So a cultural food safety's about improving that visibility that communication and greater levels of empowerment. So that that's really something that we like to help the business understand another reason why why this is essential for our industry moving forward and for those organizations when we're looking at where they are today, there might be defensive protecting. The result saw consistent focusing on goals and routines or flexible, and embracing you Arizona of action ideas, and those would describe themselves as more progressive focusing on innovation and gone beyond results wherever they are on their journey i. mean the cultural fit safety is going to play it incredibly important role for the for the future of those organizations. Current would you like to wrap things up for US loan? I can try. I Green and everything that both kneeland and Marie said. Maybe. Two things to add. I would really. And I'd like to see more companies in a integrate changes made. To too immature their culture into their food safety management systems, and so if you do go ahead and Implement a new rhythm of routine of communicating and. Talking about shoot safety in your organization, right it up in a procedure. PUT IT in your food safety management system. Let it be something that is in an integrated part of how your in how your food safety and quality. Is. Being evaluated by external parties because I think we are still as an industry driven by external forces and by integrating your changes into your food safety management system or quality management system I think you stand a greater chance of not losing those improvements when people move onto new roles or a other priorities come up. So that would be one thing I think maybe just anthem br and I think it's fair and Marie spoke to this as well, and that personal connection is incredibly important. We are not putting out a flower in a sack or and have a chicken where we're feeding a global population who blindly trusts all of us to do the right thing. And I think making that personal statement making sure that there's material that. Involves people in creating those personal statement and work with a client who has an open house for the families every year and they come in and they see where their moms and dads work and when they're they're photos taken of their families in the context of this workspace and and the the blown up on posters and put on the wall. So when you come to work every day, you might see your child or your spouse or a family member. So I think that personal connection is incredibly important and and in lieu of having resources to create something like that reach out to stop foodborne illness Great Organization for personalizing a food safety. Unfortunately, it's it's not for the positive aspects and Personal. Connections incredibly important in this in this equation. Absolutely. I wanted to thank the three of you for the conversation today it's been really educational for me And we've done a lot in the magazine with loan and with Jeff Assign food safety culture. But as meal mention, it's all about continuous improvement and continuous learning as we move forward. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks again alone Jespersen Marie Tanner and Neil. Cool for joining us on the podcast today and of course, thanks to you for listening. You can find links to all the references that we've mentioned. The episode in our show notes access those in your podcast player or on our website at foodsafety magazine Dot com slash podcast them find episodes seventy eight. Please don't hesitate send US questions and suggestions to podcast at foodsafety magazine Dot Com, or post to note on twitter linked in or facebook. Also, you want to make sure that new am bonus episodes magically appear in your feet by clicking or smashing, use your own discretion that subscribe button. That's it I today. Our next regular episode will post on September eighth, take good care of yourselves and those around you. We'll talk to you then.