20 Episode results for "BLY"

Robert Bly

The Archive Project

1:07:03 hr | 10 months ago

Robert Bly

"Hey It's Andrew the director of Literary Arts Literary Arts. We rely on our community. People like you for support to help make this podcast and all our programming possible. Aw Give today literary Dash Arts Dot Org forward slash donate welcome to the archive project. I'm Andrew Procter Executive Director Rector of Literary Arts The archive project is a retrospective of some of the most engaging talks from the world's best writers for more than thirty five years of Literary Arts in Portland and support for the archive project is provided by Cole. Haan Cole Haan shoes bags and outerwear go with you. While you work your way to extraordinary more at Cole. Haan Dot Com in this episode. We feature poet Robert Bly who came to Portland in two thousand six as part of our poetry downtown series born in Nineteen Twenty six considered one of the legends of contemporary poetry. He is not only the author of more than thirty collections of poems. He has also written many works of nonfiction and crucially. He introduced dozens of unknown European South American poets to a US audience through his work as an editor. Her Kim Stafford the poet laureate of Oregon made the original introduction and he did so so beautifully. And personally that. I'm going to turn the rest of this introduction over to him. One note staffer refers to quote demonstrations observing the beginning of the war. He's referring here to the second Gulf War in Iraq. So here's Oregon's poet laureate Kim Stafford introducing Robert bly. What a strange world and we live in where you here with one side of your mind that on March nineteenth there'll be all sorts of demonstrations observing the anniversary of the beginning of the war and another side of your mind learns that also on March Nineteenth? The swallows returned to compass Toronto as they do every year. How do you live with both of those without poetry without literary arts without each of US trying to reach without Robert bly? I don't think we could my father. William Stafford was lucky in many ways but one particular stroke of luck. I should say marrying my mother. Dorothy hope among other things but in addition to that one particular stroke of luck was the friendship of Robert. Bly For this friendship brought my father other into a world at both welcomed an advanced his ways of seeing and of saying the many rooms in the mansion of Robert Bly attention are available to everyone poetry translation publishing what is written now for what is needed now. Attention to how men and women the ancient and the modern warrior and the peacemaker may seek to surprise to entertain and understand one another with Robert bly. Different ways dance together. Where William Blake imagined the city of art a place of constant interactive creation? Robert Bly UH travels the world to make this real imagine blake with students followers. We're the companions. Imagine Antonio Machado with his own school. Imagine Pablo Neruda and friends camping on the earth in early summer. Maybe Noah gathered all the animals into the Ark but Robert has sought to welcome multiple dimensions of the Human Psyche into one arc of conversation as the feminine mm-hmm and become stronger. What kinds of adjustment may be opportune in the male psyche? When Americans act more like siblings than like parents what questions may help us to truly mature in a world world war in an empire with commanders? Asleep the plight of the human what can citizens and poetry retrea encourage do. We are very lucky to welcome Robert Bly to Oregon and to be part of this conversation with with him somewhere in the back row my father is signaling to night. We have poetry friendship courage and Robert Bly the I love that image of their arc and strangely enough. I thought I'd begin with probably not one of the most fattest people in the Ark and agreed sweetie. So Oh thank you for inviting me here and thank you for those lovely introductions Bernudo road all kinds of forms of his is life and then later in after all the political he began to do odes to simple things can order rabbit killed on the road and old to suspenders and he did an. Oh my socks which I loved and read and translated. He and I read it together a number of times so this is an Ode to my socks and you're to think of of human beings who were able to love more and more simple things of the world world. Modern Mardi brought me a pair of socks which he needed herself with their own to Shepard's hands to suck as often as rabbit. I slipped my feed. got into them. As though in the two cases of twilight and skin violence socks my feet were to fish meat or wool. Aw Too long sharks see blue shot through my one golden thread to immense blackbirds two cannons. My feet were honored in this way by these heavenly socks. They were so handsome that for the first time my feet seem drew me. Unacceptable like too decrepit firemen firemen on worthy of that woven fire era of those glowing sucks. Nevertheless I resisted the temptation to save them somewhere. Students collect. Fireflies has learned. Men Collect sacred texts. I assisted the mad impulse to put them into a golden cage and give them each day birdseed and Pieces Pink Mellon like explorers in the jungle. Who Hand over the very rare green dear due to this bit and eat it with remorse? I called on the magnificent sucks and then my shoes and the moral of my orders. This beauty is twice beauty and what is good is doubly good when it is a matter of two socks made of wool in winter so I always begin to poetry meeting with someone of these wild characters so yesterday for the first time I am I thought well one thing I should do. Poetry eating after bringing European newsouth. mcvay is to bring some younger portion. That isn't that you don't know and so yesterday day before yesterday. This book came by Young Award named J Leeming called dynamite on a China plate. And and I'm going to read your a couple of poems of his EGO getting ready. Your Ego is like trying to throw away. Garbage can can't no one believes you're serious and the more you realize the garbage man. The the better than neighbors remember your name. Here's the first one any sent to me in the mail a few years ago brilliant. It's dedicated to me because she killed a spider that I've been watching Ching all all summer. The one who's great bid sheets flapped in the corner beside the mailbox. I night coming home to that. Web Spun by the door to the spider hiding in the corner and the nats caught in the web like male. Now it's autumn and the nights are called I evaluate every name in my address book. Even more touching all right. Let's see supermarket. Historians all historian should be Superman. Ka Market Cashews. Imagine what we learn. Your total comes to ten sixty six. That's the year the normans invaded Britain. Or that'll be eighteen. Sixty one the year. The civil war began now. All my receipts are beaches. Her six year olds find bullets in the sand. My tomatoes add up to Moshe and if I bought one more cotton mill cashew. It'd be discussing the battle of the bulge and not the Peloponnesian in war. But I'm tired of buying soup cans full of burning villages. I'm tired of hearing the shouts of marine stormy beaches in the bread red. I'll I wanNA live in. A house carved into recede inside the watermelon. Look up at the sky and shopping carts roll through the aisles like distant thunder strange. Isn't he very strange. This J Leeming. You've gotta go out and get this book. It's called dynamite on their China plate. I picked up a hitchhiker. After a few miles. He tells tells me that my car is no engine pull over and we both get out and look under the hood. He's right we don't say anything more about it all the way to California O.. J Leeming I love the way in America. These poets appear I dunno here and suddenly there there. He's a long skinny guy and when he walks he looks like a huge spider. Anyway he's a banks reading all right. Well I laugh to do Simone poems I am. I'm going to begin with this. One called gratitude old teachers. The older you get the more you value me teachers and I remember being. I think it was in California somewhere and and I was telling about sunset. How did you begin to write poems and I said well in in high school there was a woman who had fantastic beautiful leagues? And she'd sit on the radiator and read poems and I said it can't be all bad I was talking about her and all of a sudden voice in the audience said I'm here l'aimable Eighteen nineteen twenty. What you hit a first job was I was fourteen or something? This girl Gratitude to all teachers and I I write a lot in a lake up in northern Minnesota and there's frozen. I decided to walk 'cause when we stole the cost of housing link. Tried it into some some of it didn't work as well when we started restoring the Carson frozen lake we played feed. They've never been we walk upon the on unwalked run easy who is down there but are all teachers. What are that once could take? No human way we were students then holds up our feet in goes on the head of us for a mile beneath us the teachers and around us the stillness. So I that's when when we have thinking bill in many of my teachers that's near water. Once critique no human wage we were students then holds up of heat and goes on ahead of us for a mile beneath us the teachers and around us the stillness and I remember poured Minnesota. Who said to me you have one good? I said okay which one is he told me this awesome. Thank you very much. It's been an same cabinet by the league thoughts in the cabin. Why do I suddenly feel free? Panic Panik hero summer afternoon wind lonely cabin of strong logs. I can live and die with no more fame. I'd like ground to walk on a few books. Occasionally you storm stories. I can tell and I may or may not. There's more to learn the wind and the screen door the Grand Prix of images the Norwegian lower the power of Schmidt resume good or even success or failure is being some make something else for meat maybe silent and don't rule out misdirection misinformation. We did the end when they're just saying don't idealize reports on. I'm I've liable to tell you a completely wrong things because it felt good. At the moment I know stories I can tell and I may or may not. There's more to learn the wind in screen door the granting of images the Norwegian lower the power of Smut resume good or evil success or failure which makes something else for me maybe silence and don't allowed allowed misdirection misinformation right. This is a poem following bill. he got up every morning and more or less got up and poems and I love that way of doing things so I decided to do something like that myself so for a couple of years years. I stayed in bed until Edward in my poem for the day and everyone was quite relieved. In a way I tend to talk a lot of friends and so I would write in what had happened the day before that morning and then So one more one morning one day Marion Woodman and I were doing a workshop workshop of in candidate and we went to a party afterwards and there was a young Russian Mandera who told his story and so oh I decided the next morning I should write down what he said so I did woman called the Russian and Russian managed talking not me. The Russians had few doctors on the frontline. My father job was this after the battle is over he'd walk among them in hit. Sit down ask. Would you like to die on your own in a few hours or should I finish it most said. Don't leave me the to have a cigarette. He take out small notebook. We had no dog tags. You know I didn't realize that the Russians had no dog tastes in the Second World War he takes. I'd take on my small notebook. We had no dog tags. You know and right. The man's name down his wife his children his address address and what he wanted to say when the cigarettes has done sold as you would turn his head to the side. My father finished off one hundred men that way during the war he never went crazy. They were his people that are so beautifully said he never ruined crazy. They were his people so he came to Toronto. Did come to do so. He came to the Toronto. My father other than the summers would stand in the lawn with a hose watering the grass. That way it took a long time. He talked to the moon to the wind. I can hear are you going. You'd say to the grass. He'd say we come and go. We're no different from each other. We all are part of something we have a home. Aw when I was thirteen I said dad you know. They've invented sprinklers. Now that's what teenagers say that all all the United States Dad you know they've been sprinklers now. He went on watering the grass. This is my life. Just shut up if you don't understand it so that's one thing. We should be saying to adolescence all over the country. Shut up if you don't understand it but every transplanted to be nice in a good fan you know he wounds God. Damn I'm Kai you don't say anything feeling you know what I mean. So I would another couple of days later about something that happened at the same conference. I was there with Marion Woodman and and and John Lee and every time they talked. Everyone clapped and when I talked. Nobody clapped so I thought well let something so the next morning. I wrote this poem called wanting more applause conflicts envy now. I won't say I'm envious but I did have certain moods when I was two now. Of course I can't remember any you that I'm happy if another receive some pres attention. That's really mine. I mean I talk and the man next to me talks and he gets the applause. I am confused and she makes sense. This is hard to bear. I bear it but it causes trouble inside the Dan. You have a really bad pun comes along you should leave it in. This is hard to bear but it causes trouble cited in. Is it a mammal problem. Then he leads you to the next part of the game is it. Is it a mammal problem then. Six hits palpable far inside the Y.. Refer and I want more than one is that it it is. Such greed is mainly a problem for small mammals and I am no longer small. Let's call it a moon that we can't remember let's call it a habit of opening mouth when we who have much more even what belongs to the poor so that's really what's happening with Republicans. Let's call it a habit of opening their mouth. When we have much more our poor Muslim I think you can't believe what's going on in respect the only income plan? I don't care the I think I'll do a different sort of poem from here. I am also strange. I'm still in bed and following bill staffers average thing and so I decided to write some poems What is this what is all about? It's as if someone else is with me here in this room in which I lie. The lung fields for sound has given me the sweetness that I confused with her. The joy of being alone eating honey words the white room and Steven Wallace Stevens and the Sun. This is the joy of the soul that has preserved itself despite fleas soap in the light hearted son one is not alone when one is alone own if she is here it's she w- The no one loves as she. That went loves when when those who had one one does. The last one does not alone one alone if she is here and it felt right she they are all all over. The world is the sole is thought to be feminine. When does not alone alone as she? He's here it's a she that knowing loves a- she that when numbs win win loves what one does love all right. So that's that one and yeah. I didn't another little one. I've been thinking about these little adventures in morning longing these embar IMB occasions excursions round around hide boats and the sea passing over the beings. Five bulow I'll do it again. I've been thinking about these little adventures in morning longing these IMB occasions Sion's excursions in round hide boats and the sea passing over the beams. Far Below the vowels perhaps Wales. I realize go now and go to finish the phone by Yates. I realize going on and go to finish free in a small. Oh Cabin Bill. Clay is made nine year olds. Will I have that in a `have honeybee and live alone in the B. Loudly and is you'll have some peace there for peace comes dropping slow dropping from the veils sales of the moderning to where the cricket seems where midnights all a glimmer and noon a personal blow. In evening of the minutes I will. It is go now for always night and day. I hear leak water lapping. We Lo- sounds rather shot when I stand scandal roadway on the pavements get a hit in the deep hearts core. That's when you bundle AIDS pundits that home on nine hundred ten that got a lot of letters letters from academics in Ireland or said I never knew what was until I heard that poem the Vowels House perhaps Wales Mourn and sing at their stone table five miles down on the ocean floor they more in some laws but the small finish sounds that earners in in oars INS mourn as well. We don't know what perhaps vows were. All created in a moment of Sauro before creation agrees. They've not been able to sing in this life. Are we the last answer all these little stores ings level those guys they are mourn as well. We don't know what perhaps if I were all created in a moment of several before creation agreed if they've not been able to sing in this life so the lesson that'll Goo Pinette Ron. I'm seven of my I just reading your section seven. It's good to remain in bed. Awhile and listen for the a slyly hidden in sick wishes right. You gotta look for these things man. They hide it's good to remain in bed while and listen for the a slyly hidden hidden insecure and sent in summer world to Earth especially in the in hidden would bins. and My mother liked the Hog snuffing truffles followed by skimpy lords. And oversized. For for this this gay. Do I need forgiveness. Does the Lark need forgiveness. It's blue eggs. Oh so it's a bird like thing then this warming and hiding sound. These are the Little Lo- Heavens in the nest. Now my chest feathers widen now. Now I'm an old hand now. I'm saying I'm going to read that one again just for fun but also because I was aware when I got to the Lark one that do you have to listen what you've read written Watch what happens. It's good to remain in bed. And listen for the a slyly hidden in sequential insanity insanity in summer world to Earth I especially love the end hidden bins. In my like the Hog snuffing for truffles followed by skimpy Lords and oversized firs. For this guarantee. Do I need forgiveness. Does the lock need forgiveness. I blue eggs. No I put the lockdown. When leads me to the next thing so it's bird like thing then? This warming warming and hiding of sounds. They are the Little Lo- Heavens in the nest. Now my chest feathers widen now. I'm an old hand now. I'm satisfied so so I've already said Ed how much I love Bill and how much I learned from him. And what an honor to be here with his his wife and his children. So so. Here's a little poem of bills you probably know. There's a threat you follow. It goes among things that change people wonder about what you are pursuing. You have to explain about threat but it's hard for other people to see tragedies happen people get hurt or die and you suffer and get old nothing you can nothing. You do can stop times on folding but you never ever let go of the threat. That's good come on commission cladding And that was his way of keeping keeping hold of the thread every morning to get up and do that you know their stories. Other people have different ways. I musician will keep holding the thread by always was playing the guitar hundred that is and tie. And that's keeping hold of the hand musicians. Great Musicians do nothing but play. Ah There's an audience there because they got hold of Fed and if you pay him they say okay so the other. The day I wrote a little conversation with bill I wept so much when he died and and So this poem. I've been working on fifty five or six months in. I don't tend to go but automated January conversation with Bill Seven. Well Bill Hudson like he says it's about the same it's about the same. We still waiting for human beings to catch up. You know what it's like you wait by the car while and finally go on loan so you know what. It's like Wade with a car while and finally going along and I see offend mine. Diety we should go. She wrote back. She said. I'm okay. Okay but the food is terrible. The Nice you know. There's some are lack of information. I don't know what the put about this about at the other world out there. There's some information about death. And maybe that's why human beings also hero Eric and beyond says Robert. I can see you're starting heading out on one of your reckless roads again. And he used to say to me Robert Down Virginia. And there's a whole bunch of people attacking you and I I try to defend you. You know. Say things like this Robert. I can see you're starting out in. I wonder how long reckless roads again I used to defend your you know. I don't always agree but I do like people to become. So what's it like bill. He said it reminds me of those camping trips. We used to take the kids kids. You pack up but no matter how well you do it. You always leave something behind. Well what's it like bill. It reminds me of those camping trips. We used to take with the kids. You pack up but no matter how well you do it he always leave. Something thing Bein. Yes thank you the other things. We're the ones those. Ah we always leave something behind. Thank God probably to book a while ago called the insanity. You've empire a book against the Iraq war and I'm going to read a couple of homes out of them. You Know I. I am reading doing a lot of poems in nineteen sixty eight and seventy and soon against the Vietnam War and and I couldn't believe how they were protesting the Iraq war. It's hard to believe they're still on many. You understand me. It's amazing contrast rest and we know that to some extent American life has had a huge cultural drop since that time. I mean the issue of Uh the serious reading done by adults it stops ten percent like every at twelve years and those. Oh well documented those jobs and course I think major thing is television and if you're allowing children to watch television more than three hours a day I said you wonder to just shoot your children. Get it over us so god Damn Lazy. You can't even tell stories of the children shoot yourself but we're watching. The first country in the history of the world destroyed culturally by television. And so no one knows exactly what to do about it. But we're going to have to face it pretty soon because you hear so many lies on television. I think how many lies children taking on a single night of inversions. They're all lies. And there's there's you know in our hometown there was a young boy wasn't too bright but he had one of the first television sets and he saw someone harming a person in Chicago so he got his right from the shot the TV set. And that's very smart. They tried to do it in front of your children. It's the smoke coming out after you shoot the TV set. That's really impress them. So tone so there's something here about getting used to lies and it wasn't so bad hundreds in the newspapers because you'd see the crummy advertisements but they would still be a lot of truth in the middle of the newspaper. But what if the whole thing is lies and they're in the television picture of human relations your whole life and then right you understand me. So how could our children positively W we act when Bush says is another liar like the rest so this is called Carlin answering the answer and I think it was the first against Iraq in August of two thousand to tell me why it is. We don't lift our voices these days and cry over what is happening. Have you noticed the plans are made for Iraq and the ice cap is melting. I say to myself gone cry. What's the sense of being an adult and having having no voice cry out she who will answer? This is calling answer. We'll have to call especially loud to each angels. Those who are hard of hearing they are hiding in the jugs of silence filled. Doing our wars. Remember how prepared for this attack and A little funny in countries and islands. Why did we do that? What do all those wars about? We'll have to call especially loud to reach her angels. Who are hard of hearing? They are hiding in the jugs of silence field during wars. Have we agreed to so many wars wars that we can't escape from silence if we don't have to voices we allow others. Who are ourselves to the House and to me? That's that's refers to television to that people we allow others community television set in rob houses. You know concessional lending people come in and steal things steal your kids. Steel steel that. We don't do anything when people houses so when Bush begins to our house. Well how come we've listened to degrade criers nuder. Arruda Achmat Overthrow Frederick Douglass. And now we're silent. Despair rose bushes so bad pun. But how come we listened to degrade criers no Rueda on a matter of the row. Oh Frederick Douglass and now we're silent spills in the little bushes less Danja. Some master say our life only last seven days. Well we're in. The week is Thursday yet very quiet now. Soon Sunday night will come and Sunday night came name when they bombed Iraq after call it Sunday night. The here's another one advice from the geese. Hurry the world is not going to get better. You deserve to be told the truth by men. Hurry the the world is not going to get better. Do what you WANNA do now. The prologue is over soon. Actors come on stage carrying the coffin. I don't want to fight you but not a stitch can be taken on your quilt. MSU study the diesel tell you a lot of triangles on on before dawn. Comes you have a friend who studied prisons does a frenzy. I love the twelve houses. I'm sort of bugging some of my friends who love astrology. Do you have a friend who has studied. Prisons does offense. I love the twelve houses. Their houses suggest prison all by itself. so much suffering goes on among prisoners. There's so much grief the cells that's great thing about in English. The cells in prisons is the same way cells in your body so much suffering on among prisoners. There's there's so much grief in the salads so many bolts of lightening keep coming down from the unborn. Please don't expect it. The next president will be better. The initial one. Four o'clock in the morning is the time to read Buzzer leaders. Lead as as an old nasty writer who said look this is is a dark planet. Get into your head. Please don't expect the next president won't be better than this one. Four o'clock in the morning is the time to read buzzer ladies. This last every seed spends many nights earth give up the idea that the world will get better by itself. You will not be forgiven if you refuse to study and not have to say that to myself. You will not be forgiven if you refuse to study. I'm trying to depress you doing so. I'm going to read the different shorter reform now for a bit I started working working on the guzzles. There that gazelles and that's the oldest poetic form in the Muslim culture which is a very great culture by the way very very green and it started in the tenth century as a love poem in Arabic and then gradually all of the various Members of the Islamic culture began to write in that form and it has a three characteristics which I will which I will Mention first of all. You're given thirty six to say what you have to say and then you have to shut up. That is to say you have thirty six. They use to eighteen Civil Lines but in English you can't continue align over fifteen syllables levels of so try yours three sixteen syllable lines. You're you're got these syllables desire to have to say and then you have to to change subject when that's interesting because he changes subjects once it changes it the second time and people people in the audience in the Muslim understand. What the Hell is going on? What does this poem about at the same time? You're saved long on long speeches by by remember. I I mean you know when he gets on wall. Don't try to stop it. He's very great court. I love him but anyway. So that's one characteristic that you change the subject after thirty sexual second subject. Second thing is that you don't rhyme but the same word and every stent the same word or group work and every stance. That's very interesting because just like you long for rhyme. You begin to long to see how that word you're GONNA come back. You understand me. That's a lot of the fund that they have in listening to to guzzles and the third one is that is that in the last answer. You mentioned your name and part of that is done. I think because the Muslim world is so huge that someone can do opponent Afghanistan and then three me slater three-sided in a in a cafe in Cairo and they don't publish they memorize so they're the only way you can identify. This poem is to put your name in. And that's why it's called me is not his name means someone born in Providence Room and half has his name of his means someone who has memorized the entire command and apparently that's how our fails that made a living by reciting current and I don't always do the a third one in In the second one but you know I'm just a beginner. You know but this is. You're listening to Sean. is a very great Iranian singer and he gave a concert in San Francisco by ten days ago. Shot and there's a lot of connection between Iranian music and Mongolian music. You can hear horses in it all the time so I mentioned that listening disarm. I'm not agree. I know the hers galloping for Miles and I know the answer keep lifting their feelings to heaven and planning new triumphs. But it's already too late Naza. RIA SINGS I don't care if the second Adam comes down or not. I don't care if my words get you to cry or cut is already too late. GotTa be with me already too late. Come on already to lay the smell of coffee spreads out from the fire in the wild haired old women sing over the coffin. Go on complaining and crying as Ra Ra too late. I know sweet vowels and capable rhythms I also send my Home Sadan Hall and he said what isn't inescapable able rhythm I said I know. Sweet Balls and inescapable rhythms and I know how sweet it is when a young woman is here and the old men think of God. But it's already too late. My tongue never becomes bitter because my my mouth keeps holding the grief pipe between my teeth. That's something that the Muslims talking about a lot always having grief we'll take you from being bitter and the thing is great. We're scared of everything that doesn't rhyme or something. I don't know we. We always want happy. Seniors they say shoot happy thing. Let's get rid of my tongue. Never becomes bitter because my mouth always keeps holding the grief pipe between my teeth go on and conquer. Bitterness rage lagged Westend. I'm all alone early morning. I'm so happy. How can so much grand your liberties? My skin go on asking as all ready to relate command man you not doing it. He has already ready to lay. And I don't know what that phrase means. Sometimes it feels very happy to me me as I forget it. She's already married. What are you GonNa do all right? So I'll give you one uses. The same word at the end of the the Muslims thing is very interesting they say God has existence and we have non-existence manners something touching about that. Luckily we got something we got. non-existence could have been worse. I think the bridegroom wanted to reach the Norwegian church but the roads remained impassable huge snows. We're each the bridegroom longing for existence. Marriage brings the moth close to the candle flame as one of the oldest metaphors in the whole world with their free wings. Men and women are constantly flying into the fire of existence. I read that again. Marriage brings them on close to the candle flame with a free wings. Men and women are constantly flying into the fire existence. Some say that each drive groundwater Guardia. Kansas did I change the subject here. Some say that each drop of groundwater in Kansas knows about the ocean. How can this be every every drop of water long like us for existence? I would say he was an old Muslim Um suffering man he was out in the Wilderness and he suffered. They're very little food and everything for twenty years and he had no dragon out there. You talked once in a while and When he came back to town then he became a very happy person then started a whole bunch of songs and twenty years later he went back out to who had been and he met the old dragon again and this is went? What happened say faceted in the desert for twenty years later when he came back his dragon friend Web? You're suffering gave me a hint of existence. I never thought about that. The dragons don't know anything about Daigle said you're suffering. Give me a hint of existence and this is my wife playing the Bach on the piano. When win the pianist fingers strike all the notes in the tenth prelude? It's clear that box soul has been leaving about like a hair in the field of existence. Isn't that right when the his fingers strike all the notes in the ten the prelude. It's clear box soul has been leaping about like a hair in the field of existence. Robert you're close to joy but not quite there to see I finally bought. My name is kind of embarrassing wherever you are close to joy but not quite there hunchback standing in an Italian Square. You're looking in at the festival of existence. The the lesson is essentially a memory of new party. WHO has left? Noted he did that. Yeah the hunchback. And he didn't feel that he could appear there and he'd stand a little side alleys and see what is happening. This is the opponent part of it. They're going to put on the buses so I'll read you read this one allowed before never admired before it's called listening to old music and there's a very old instrument that that the Indians have called the river. Vena and I was listening to that. I don't you know what would bring me closer to you. Maybe slowing down this. Maybe waking in the middle of the night maybe diving for the bottom. Second Santa maybe silence the speed of the soul leaping over fences brings the to- forward at other times a book resting on my chest. Takes me backward into my mother's arms. Those are the two that they're going to put onto buses people look at them and say what the. Yeah so it's got a few more stanzas meet him. The AKEN Aken the folder. My arm must be the old sadness that the newborn fields when he says that his father has come to claim him for this world the ache in the folder. My arm must be the old sadness that the newborn fields when he senses that his father has come to claim mm-hmm from this world. Don't ask me whether to take plate or CIDER. Freud's change the subject in the middle. I say don't ask me whether the plate or Cider ed or Freud's what's that got to figure it out. Don't ask me whether to take aside for. Just come over here and help me burn my I books so we can move to Argentina. Get too many books. Eventually I'd right. The drum insists that tonight we will be a long night. The RUDRA Veena goes on insisting that there is not enough suffering. The insist that tonight. We won't be a long night. Would Ravina goes on insisting. There's not enough suffering. Go on to Vena go on growling about God I I am rubbing my big face against my little face like a blackbird flying through the knees doesn't make sense but there's a lot of fun I'm having my big face against my little face like blackbirds laying swiftly to believes okay. Good that's Internet one. No got four more. I I want to read you. Is that too much. We'll be okay for you know I did existence word existence. Now I'll I'll do. One nonexistence called eating blackberry jam. When I hear that we all belong to non-existence drive my eyes but then I raised them out of love for the little creatures of nonexistence? Some say the purchase become like each other to keep the shock. This is this comes out of the Aquarium in Monterrey and I saw these fish they were in a circle all going along. ooh And I said to my friend. What the hell are they doing that for? He said to keep the shark from coming into shark. Can't get a good fix on any one of them. That's a big excuse for crowns per to become like each other to keep the shark from zeroing in but staying alive doesn't mean they are free from non existence the cries of the infant barn swallows rising ingeniously. You know the the infant burn swallows rising from the mud nests fastened ingeniously to the rafters. This is a farmboys poem. The cries of the infant barnes rising from the mud nests fad ingeniously to their. After's taught me to love the skinny birds Eh. Taoist with their thin beards fishing all day with a straight Hook Luke. They do that they do that. Taoist with your thin beards fishing shing all day with the street hook. Tell us they have learned not to expect a whole lot from non existence. And here's the first answer though the road accidentally and then I had to go back and do five more blackberries have so many faces that there are jam is kind of thickening of nothing. Each of US loves to eat the thick Syrup non-existence blackberries have so many faces at the jam kind of thickening of nothing. Each of US loves to eat a thick syrup and I have to stick up for non existence in the last hands in in the original. Formula can go from six five stanzas onto twenty eight. But I always I do six. Because I'm just the beginning. We need stanza closes with the same word. I'm glad friend says if you're proud of that you you must be one of the secretaries of non-existence. Here's an idea I did. My first book was called the night Abraham called the stars which has the forty eight of these and and then the new book. My sense of joy is another forty eight so I'm going to read this one that I liked in this book and I was trying to think what the most beautiful word in English language then. Maybe it's listening listening the goose cries. And there's no way to save her. So many chiefs come from the Knicks by the river. If God it doesn't listen why are we missing. Very deep water covers most of the globe whenever I see. Did I think you've seen John. There's no med. For deep water but listen very deep. Water covers most of the globe. Whenever I see John There's no remedy for deep water? At least the King and Queen already knew about love they search for each other through the whole deck. I mean eyemouth. methology is so feeble that we have to go to a deck of cards to find the king the queen the King and Queen already know about love this search for each other through the whole deck while we play our hands they are missing the day we really needs to be like a fish abruptly jerked out of the water for him is the end of all listening she how beautiful it is and you you can change the subject of the day we die we leads me like fish abruptly jerked onto the one for him as the end of all the only way to it is to learn the arts learn how to paint watercolours known how to write poems known how to do song hundred playing guitar the only reason to learn the arts and doubled them at Disney the two homes after you okay okay this is called the Seo nut and actually the book begins Gins Guide coaches at night over a single pistachio. And I quit right there. Never figure that out God coaches at night over a single pistachio. The vast -ness of the wind river range in Wyoming has no more grandeur than the waste the child the grandeur of the Wind River range in Wyoming has no more nor the vast of the Wind River Region Wyoming has no more Gandier than waste of child. Haydn tells us as we've inherited dimension of the Georgia. You're listening to something like unbelievable. Wealth wealth isn't it staggering. Haydn tells us we've inherited a mansion on one of Georgia's islands than the last note runs down the courthouse and all all the records. And I have a friend David Headstone. Who plays the tar? And he's done poetry worth three readings with me for twenty thirty years and I'm sorry he isn't here tonight but his fingers have deep marks him from pressing down the heavy strings. Use of the Tar. They really having everyone who press down the strings with zone. Fingers is on the way to heaven the pain and the Fingertips Gore's toward healing. The crimes the hands of done the pain and the fingertips course toward healing the crimes the hands of dumb. Let's give up the notion that great music is their way of praising human beings. I mean that's so disgusting I mean think buying you think balk here the damn about human beings and he did but he was German but the music great music into pre something besides human beings. You whether you believe it or not Adam saying something you know. Let's give up the notion that great music is our way appraising human beings. It's good to agree that one drop of ocean water the holes all. Of course Breyer's it's good to agree that one drop of ocean water holds all of Gore's prayers. When I hear they're CEJAR give out the story of its life? I know it's telling me how to behave. Well kissing the new ones feet to weep over my wasted life when I hear the tar give about the story of its life. I know it's telling me how to behave well. Kissing the do one's feet to reap over my wasted life last Stanza Robert. This poem will soon be over and you are like a twig trampling on the lip of the falls like a note of music. You're about to become the somehow now a statement like that which wouldn't feel quite right in fevers feel better attendance formed. Isn't it feels that way. You can say wild things when you're doing for them so this is the last poem I'm going to read to you. It's called stealing sugar from the castle. Oh and the repeating words joining in the Third Stanza Banja. There's an image of a bird flying into a hall and I think the bill bead mentioned it and I think it's referred to in human life is like a bird flying on snowstorm into a hall and singing and shouting and in their flies out through the other window into the snow. And that's human life is about that long. We are poor. Students stay after school school to study joy. We are like those burge India mountains. I'm a widow. Whose child is only doing? The only thing I hold in my aunt had is the builders plan of the castle the Sugar. I have to tell you that the translating and is like stealing sugar and I just I put out a book recently called the wing and energy of delight and in Nevada and twenty-one reports that I've translated and as a wonderful way to steal sure and reason I look so good as I've been stealing girl my life the only thing I hold in my aunt leg head is the builders plan or the castle of Sugar Justice Steel run greener sugars joy like a bird. We fly out of darkness into the hall which is lit singing and then fly out again. Being shut out of the WOM- hall is also a joy like a bird. We fly darkness into the hall which is lit with singing and then fly out again. Being shut out of the WOM- hall is awesome and joy. I'm a laggard alot. For an idiot one of my kids said you're wrong about the loafer part. I'm a laggard. A loafer an idiot but I love to read about those who called one glimpse of the face and died twenty years later joy. I'm allegra too low for an idiot but I love to read about those who called one glimpse of the face in indict twenty years later enjoy. I don't mind you're saying I will die soon. Even in the sound of the word soon I hear the word you which begins every sentence of joy. I don't mind you're saying I will die soon. I mean I don't mind I just saying Yeah Robert Onto you're going to die is pretty soon. I don't mind you're saying I will die soon. Even in the sound of the word soon I hear the word you which begins every sentence of joy lessons last exit. You're a thief the judge said. Let's see your hands. I showed my calloused hands in court. My sentence was a thousand years of jewelry. It that's poet Robert. bly event event in two thousand six. This has been literary arts the Archive Project. It's a retrospective of some of the most engaging talks from the world's best writers for more than thirty eighty five years of literary arts in Portland. Join US next time for the Archive Project alliterate arts production in collaboration with Oregon public broadcasting to hear more from the Archive Archive project. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts support for the archive project provided by Cole. Haan on a mission to fuel your big ideas more Cole. Haan Dot com show is produced by crystal gory for radio and podcast special. Thanks to the Literary Arts Staff Board and community the show would not be possible without them. Thanks also to the ban emancipator for our theme music and thanks to all of you for listening. I'm Andrew Procter and this has been another edition of the archive project from Literary Very Arts. Join US next time. Find your story here.

Robert Bly US Iraq Toronto Oregon Andrew Procter Cole J Leeming Portland Little Lo- Heavens China Adam Haan Cole Haan William Stafford Pablo Neruda Antonio Machado Kim Stafford William Blake Bly
Robert Bly (Rebroadcast)

The Archive Project

1:07:03 hr | 6 months ago

Robert Bly (Rebroadcast)

"Hey It's Andrew the director of Literary Arts Literary Arts. We rely on our community. People like you for support to help make this podcast and all our programming possible give today literary Dash Arts Dot. Org forward slash donate welcome to the archive project. I'm Andrew Procter Executive Director of Literary Arts. The archive project is a retrospective of some of the most engaging talks from the world's best writers for more than thirty five years of Literary Arts in Portland Support for the archive project is provided by Cole. Haan Cole Haan shoes bags and outerwear go with you. While you work your way to extraordinary more at Cole. Haan Dot Com in this episode. We feature poet Robert Bly who came to Portland in two thousand six as part of our poetry downtown series born in Nineteen Twenty six considered one of the legends of contemporary poetry. He is not only the author of more than thirty collections of poems. He has also written many works of nonfiction and crucially. He introduced dozens of unknown European South American poets to a US audience through his work as an editor. Kim Stafford the poet laureate of Oregon made the original introduction and he did so so beautifully. And personally that. I'm going to turn the rest of this introduction over to him. One note staffers to quote demonstrations observing the beginning of the war. He's referring here to the second Gulf War in Iraq. So here's Oregon's poet laureate Kim Stafford introducing Robert bly. What a strange world. We live in where you here with one side of your mind that on March nineteenth there'll be all sorts of demonstrations observing the anniversary of the beginning of the war and another side of your mind. Learns that also on March Nineteenth. The swallows returned to compass Toronto as they do every year. How do you live with both of those without poetry without literary arts without each of US trying to reach without Robert Bly? I don't think we could my father. William Stafford was lucky in many ways but one particular stroke of luck. I should say marrying my mother. Dorothy hope among other things but in addition to that one particular stroke of luck was the friendship of Robert. Bly For this friendship brought my father into a world that both welcomed an advanced his ways of seeing and of saying the many rooms in the mansion of Robert Bly attention are available to everyone poetry Translation Publishing. What is written now for what is needed now. Attention to how men and women the ancient and the modern warrior and the peacemaker may seek to surprise to entertain and understand one another with Robert bly. Different ways dance together. Where William Blake imagined the city of art a place of constant interactive creation? Robert bly travels the world to make this real imagine blake with students followers worthy companions. Imagine Antonio Machado with his own school. Imagine Pablo Neruda and friends camping on the earth in early summer. Maybe Noah gathered all the animals into the Ark but Robert has sought to welcome multiple dimensions of the Human Psyche into one arc of conversation as the Feminine Become Stronger. What kinds of adjustment may be opportune in the male psyche? When Americans act more like siblings than like parents? What questions may help us to truly mature in a world war in an empire with commanders? Asleep the plight of the human what can citizens and poetry encourage do. We are very lucky to welcome Robert Bly to Oregon and to be part of this conversation with him somewhere in the back row. My father is signaling to night. We have poetry friendship courage and Robert. Bly I that image of their arc and strangely enough. I thought I'd begin with probably one of the most fattest people in the Ark and agreed sweetie. So thank you for inviting me here. And thank you for those lovely introductions nuder road all kinds of forms of his life and then later in after all the political he began to do odes to simple things can order rabbit killed on the road and old to suspenders and he did an old to my socks which I loved and read and translated. He and I read it together a number of times. So this is an Ode to my socks. And you're to think of of human beings who were able to love more and more simple things of the world motto. Mardi bought me a pair of socks which he needed herself with their own to Shepard's hands to suck as often as rabbit. I slipped my feed into them as the one to two cases of twilight and skin violence socks. My feet were to fish meat or wool. Too Long sharks see blue shot through my one golden thread to immense blackbirds two cannons. My feet were honored in this way by these heavenly socks. They were so handsome that for the first time. My feet seem to me. Unacceptable like too decrepit firemen firemen on worthy of that woven. Fire glowing sucks. Nevertheless I resisted the temptation to save them somewhere. Students collect fireflies as men collect sacred texts. I assisted the mad impulse to put them into a golden cage and give them each day birdseed and Pieces Pink Mellon like explorers in the jungle. Who Hand over the very rare green dear to this fit and eat it with remorse. I called on the magnificent sucks and then my shoes and the moral of my orders. This beauty is twice beauty and what is good is doubly good when it is a matter of two socks made of wool in winter so I always begin to poetry meeting with someone of these wild characters so yesterday for the First Time. I thought well one thing I should do. Poetry eating after bringing European newsouth. Mcvay is to bring some younger portion. That isn't that you don't know and so yesterday day before yesterday. This book came by Young Award named J Leeming called dynamite on a China plate. And I'm GonNa read you a couple of poems of his EGO getting ready. Your Ego is like trying to throw away garbage. Can No one believes you're serious and the more you realize the garbage man the better than neighbors remember your name. Here's the first one is sent to me in the mail. A few years ago brilliant. It's dedicated to me because she killed a spider that I've been watching all all summer. The one who's great bid sheets flapped in the corner beside the mailbox. I might coming home to that. Web Spun by the door to the spider hiding in the corner and the nats caught in the web like male. Now it's autumn and the nights are called I evalu- Every name in my address book. Even more touching all right. Let's see supermarket. Historians all historian should be Superman. Ka Market Cashews. Imagine what we learn. Your total comes to ten sixty six. That's the year the normans invaded Britain. Or that'll be eighteen. Sixty one the year. The civil war began now. All my receipts are beaches. Her six year olds find bullets in the sand. My tomatoes add up to Russia and if I bought one more. Cotton mill cashew. It'd be discussing the battle of the bulge and not the Peloponnesian war. But I'm tired of buying soup cans full of burning villages. I'm tired of hearing the shouts of marine stormy beaches in the bread aisle. I WANNA live in. A house carved into recede inside the watermelon. Look up at the sky and shopping carts roll through the Aisles. Like distant thunder strange. Isn't he very strange? This J Leeming. You've gotta go out and get this book. It's called dynamite on their China plate. I picked up a hitchhiker. After a few miles. He tells me that my car is no engine. Pull over and we both get out and look under the hood. He's right we don't say anything more about it all the way to California O. J Leeming I love the way in America these poets here and suddenly there there. He's a long skinny guy and when he walks. He looks like a huge spider. Anyway he's a banks reading all right. Well I'll have to do some mound poems. I guess I am. I'm going to begin with this. One called gratitude old teachers. The older you get the more you value teachers and I remember being. I think it was in California somewhere and and I was telling about sunset. How did you begin to write poems and I said well in high school there was a woman who had fantastic beautiful leagues? And she'd sit on the radiator and read poems and I said it can't be all bad I was talking about her and all of a sudden the voice in the audience said. I'm here l'aimable Eighteen nineteen twenty. What you hit a first job was I was fourteen or something. I was great this. Call gratitude all teachers and I. I write a lot in a lake up in northern Minnesota. And there's frozen. I decided to walk 'cause when we stole the cost of housing link. Tried it into some of them? Didn't work as well when we started restoring the Carson Frozen Lake. We played feet they have never been. We walk upon the on walked. But we're an easy who is down there but are all teachers. What are that once could take. No human way we were students then holds up our feet and goes on the head of us for a mile beneath us the teachers and around us the stillness. So I that's when when we have thinking bill in many of my teachers that's near water. Once critique no human wage we were students then holds of heat and goes on ahead of us for a mile beneath us the teachers and around us the stillness and I remember poured Minnesota. Who said to me? You have one good. I said okay. Which one is he told me this? I said thank you. It's been an same cabinet by the league thoughts in the cabin. Why do I suddenly feel free panic hero summer afternoon wind? Lonely cabin of strong logs. I can live and die with no more fame. I'd like ground to walk on a few books. Occasionally you storm stories. I can tell and I may or may not. There's more to learn and the screen door the Grand Prix of images the Norwegian lower the power of Schmidt resume good or evil success or failure is being some make something else for meat maybe silent and don't rule out misdirection misinformation. We did the end when they're just saying don't idealize reports a bunch on. I'm liable to tell you completely wrong things because it felt good. At the moment I know stories I can tell and I may or may not. There's more to learn that we end in screen door the granting of images the Norwegian lower the power of Smut resume good or evil success or failure which makes something else for me maybe silence and don't be loud misdirection misinformation right. This is a poem following bill He got up every morning and more or less got up poems and and I love that way of doing things so I decided to do something like that myself so for a couple of years I stayed in bed until Edward in my poem for the day and everyone was quite relieved in a way. I tend to talk a lot and so I would write in what had happened the day before that morning and then So one more one morning one day Marion Woodman and I were doing a workshop of in Canada and we went to a party afterwards and there was a young Russian Mandera who told his story and so I decided the next morning I should write down what he said so I did woman called the Russian and Russian managed talking not me. The Russians had few doctors on the front line. My father job was this after the battle is over he'd walk among them in hit. Sit Down and ask. Would you like to die on your own in a few hours or should I finish it most said? Don't leave me the to have a cigarette. He take out a small notebook. We had no dog tags. You know I didn't realize that the Russians had no dog tags in the Second World War he takes. I'd take on my small notebook. We had no dog tags. You know and right. The man's name down his wife his children his address and what he wanted to say when the cigarettes has done sold as you would turn his head to the side. My father finished off one hundred men that way during the war he never went crazy. They were his people that are so beautifully. Said he never went crazy. They were his people so he came to Toronto. Did come to do so. He came to the Toronto. My father in the summers would stand in the lawn. The hose watering the grass. That way it took a long time. He talked to the moon to the wind. I can hear you going. You'd say to the grass. He'd say we come and go. We're no different from each other. We all are part of something. We have a home when I was thirteen. I said Dad you know. They've invented sprinklers. Now that's what teenagers say that all the United States Dad you know they've been sprinklers now. He went on watering the grass. This is my life. Just shut up if you don't understand it so that's one thing we should be saying to all of the country shut up if you don't understand it but every transplanted to be nice in a good fan. You know he wounds God damn car. You don't say anything feeling you know what I mean so I would another couple of days later about something that happened at the same conference. I was there with Marion. Woodman and and John Lee and every time they talked. Everyone clapped and when I talked. Nobody clapped so I thought well let something so the next morning. I wrote this poem called wanting more applause conflicts envy now. I won't say I'm envious but I did have certain moods when I was two now. Of course I can't remember any of that. I'm happy if another receive some praise or attention. That's really mine. I mean I talk and the man next to me talks and he gets the applause. I am confused and she makes sense. This is hard to bear. I bear it but it causes trouble inside. The Dan really bad pun comes along. You should leave it in. This is hard to bear but it causes trouble cited in. Is it a mammal problem? Then he leads you to the next part of the game is it. Is it a mammal problem then? Six hits palpable fire inside the UAE. Refer and I want more than one is that it it is. Such greed is any a problem for small mammals and I am no longer small. Let's call it a moon that we can't remember let's call it a habit of opening mouth when we who have much more even what belongs to the poor so that's really what's happening with Republicans. Let's call it a habit of opening their mouth when we have much more. Even what blogs are the Muslim. I think you can't believe what's going on. In respect. The only couple clamp. I don't care. I think I'll do different sort of poem from here. I am on a so strange. I'm still in bed and following bill. Staffers thing and so I decided to write some poems. what is this? What is all about? It's as if someone else is with me here in this room in which I lie. The lung fields for sound has given me the sweetness that I confused with her. The joy of being alone eating honey words the white room and Steven Wallace Stevens and the Sun. This is the joy of the soul that has preserved itself despite fleas soap in the light hearted son one is not alone when one is alone if she is here it's she w- The no one loves as she. That went loves when when those who had one does love. The last one does not alone one alone if she is here and it felt right she they are all over. The world is the sole is thought to be feminine. When does not alone alone as she is here? And it's a she that knowing loves a- she that when numbs win win loves what one does love all right. So that's that one and I did another little one. I've been thinking about these little adventures in morning longing these embar. Imb occasions excursions round hide boats and the sea passing over the beings. Five bulow. I'll do it again. I've been thinking about these little adventures in morning longing these IMB occasions excursions in round hide boats and the sea passing. Over the beams. Far Below the vowels perhaps Wales. I realize go now and go to finish the phone by Yates. I realize going on and go to finish free in a small cabinet build. Their of clay waddles made nine year olds. Will I have that in a `have honeybee and live alone in the B. Loudly? And is you'll have some peace. There for peace comes dropping slow dropping from the veils of the moderning to where the cricket scenes where midnights all a glimmer and noon a personal blow. In evening of the minutes. I will let is go now for always night and day. I hear leak water lapping. We Lo- sounds rather shot when I stand on the roadway on the pavements get a hit in the deep hearts core. That's when you bundle. Aids pundits that home on nine hundred ten that got a lot of letters from academics in Ireland or said I never knew what was until I heard that poem the vowels perhaps Wales Mourn and sing at their stone table five miles down on the ocean floor. They more in some laws but the small finish sounds that earners in in oars INS mourn as well. We don't know what perhaps vows were. All created in a moment of Sauro before creation agrees. They've not been able to sing in this life. Are we the last answer all these little stores ings level? Those guys they are mourn as well. We don't know what perhaps if I were. All created in a moment of sal before creation agreed if they've not been able to sing in this life so the lesson that'll Goo Pinette Ron. I'm seven of my just reading your section seven. It's good to remain in bed. Awhile and listen for the a slyly hidden in sick wishes. You gotta look for these things man. They hide it's good to remain in bed. While and listen for the a slyly hidden insecure and sent in summer world to Earth especially in the in hidden would bins and my mother liked the Hog snuffing truffles followed by Skimpy Lords. And oversized for for this gaiety. Do I need forgiveness? Does the lock need forgiveness. It's blue eggs. Oh so it's a bird like thing then there's warming and hiding sound these are the Little Lo- Heavens in the nest now my chest feathers wide. Now I'm an old hand now. I'm says I'm going to read that one again just for fun but also because I was aware when I got to the Lark one that you have to listen what you've read written Watch what happens. It's good to remain in bed. And listen for the a slyly hidden in sequential insanity in summer world to Earth I especially love the end hidden bins in my like the Hog snuffing for truffles followed by Skimpy Lords. And oversized firs for this gaiety. Do I need forgiveness? Does the lock need forgiveness. Words blue eggs. I don't know I put the lockdown. When leads me to the next thing? So it's bird like thing then this warming and hiding of sounds they are the Little Lo- Heavens in the nest. Now my chest feathers widen now. I'm an old hand now. I'm satisfied so so I've already said how much I love Bill. And how much I learned from him. And what an honor to be here with his his wife and his children. So here's a little poem of bills you probably know. There's a threat you follow. It goes among things that change people wonder about what you are pursuing. You have to explain about threat but it's hard for other people to see tragedies happen and get hurt or die and you suffer and get old nothing. You can nothing. You do can stop times on folding but you never ever let go of the threat. That's good come on commission cladding and that was his way of keeping hold of the thread every morning to get up and do that. You know their stories. Other people have different ways. I musician will keep holding the thread by always playing the guitar hundred. It is and tie. And that's keeping hold of the hand musicians. Great Musicians do nothing but play if there's an audience there because they got hold of Fed and if you pay him they say okay so the other day. I wrote a little conversation with Bill. I wept so much when he died and and So this poem. I've been working on fifty five or six months in. I don't tend to go but automated January conversation with Bill Seven. Well Bill Hudson like he says it's about the same it's about the same. We still waiting for human beings to catch up. You know what it's like. You wait by the car while and finally go on loan you know what it's like. Wade with a car while and finally going along and I see offend mine diety. We should go. She wrote back. She said I'm okay but the food is terrible. The Nice you know. There's some are lack of information. I don't know what the put about this about the other world or about their. There's some lack of information about death. And maybe that's why human beings also hero Eric and beyond says Robert I can see you're starting out on one of your long reckless roads again. And he used to say to me Robert Down Virginia. And there's a whole bunch of people attacking you and I tried to defend you. You know. Say things like this Robert. I can see you're starting out in one of your long reckless roads again. I used to defend your you know. I don't always agree but I do like people to become. So what's it like bill? He said it reminds me of those camping trips. We used to take the kids. You pack up but no matter how well you do it. You always leave something behind. Well what's it like bill? It reminds me of those camping trips. We used to take with the kids. You pack up but no matter how well you do it you always leave something buy yes. Thank you other things. We're the ones those young children. We always leave something behind. Thank God probably to book a while ago called the insanity of Empire Book against the Iraq War and I'm going to read a couple of homes out of them. You know I. I am reading doing a lot of poems in nineteen sixty eight and seventy and soon against the Vietnam War and I couldn't believe how voices they were protesting the Iraq war. It's hard to believe they're still on many. You understand me. It's amazing contrast and we know that some extent American life has had a huge cultural drop since that time. I mean the issue of a serious reading done by adults. It stops ten percent like every at twelve years. And those oh well documented those jobs and of course. I think major thing is television and if you're allowing children to watch television more than three hours a day I said you wonder to just shoot your children. Get it over us so god Damn Lazy. You can't even tell stories of their children. Shoot yourself but we're watching. The first country in the history of the world destroyed culturally by Television. And so no one knows exactly what to do about it. But we're going to have to face it pretty soon because you hear so many lies on television. I think how many lies children taking on a single night of inversions. They're all lies. And there's there's you know in our hometown. There was a young boy wasn't too bright but he had one of the first television sets and he saw someone a person in Chicago so he got his right from the shot the TV set. And that's very smart. Tried to do it in front of your children. It's the smoke coming out after you shoot the TV set. That's really impress them. So so there's something here about getting used to lies and it wasn't so bad hundreds in the newspapers because you'd see the crummy advertisements but they would still be a lot of truth in the middle of the newspaper. But what if the whole thing is lies and they're in the television picture of human relations your whole life and then right you understand me. So how could our children positively we act when Bush says this another liar like the rest so this is called Carlin answering I against the Iraq in August of two thousand to tell me why it is. We don't lift our voices these days and cry over what is happening. Have you noticed? The plans are made for Iraq and the ice cap is melting. Say to myself gone cry. What's the sense of being an adult and having no voice cry out she? Who Will Answer? This is calling answer. We'll have to call especially loud to each angels. Who are hard of hearing. They are hiding in the jugs of silence filled. Doing our wars. Remember how prepared for this attack and You know a little funny in countries and islands. Why did we do that? What do all those wars about? We'll have to call especially loud to reach her angels. Who are hard of hearing. They are hiding in the jugs of silence field during wars. Have we agreed to so many wars that we can't escape from silence? If we don't have to voices we allow others. Who are ourselves to the House and to me? That's refers to television to that people. We allow others community television set in Raba houses. You know what I mean. It's just like letting people come in and steal things steal your kids. Steel steel that. We don't do anything when people houses so when Bush begins to our house. Well how come we'VE LISTENED TO DEGRADE CRIERS BUDDHA. Achmat overthrow Federick Douglass. And now we're silent. Despair was in the bushes so bad pun. But how come we listened to degrade criers no Rueda on a matter of the row. Frederick Douglass and now we're silent spills in the little bushes less Danja. Some master say our life only last seven days in the week is Thursday yet very quiet. Now Soon Sunday night will come and Sunday night came when they bombed Iraq after call it Sunday night. Here's another one advice from the geese. Hurry the world is not going to get better. You deserve to be told the truth by men. Hurry the world is not going to get better do what you WANNA do now. The prologue is over soon. Actors come on stage carrying the coffin. I don't WanNa Find You. But not a stitch can be taken on your quilt. Msu study the diesel tell you a lot of triangles on before dawn. Comes you have a friend who studied. Prisons does a frenzy. I love the twelve houses. I'm sort of bugging some of my friends who love astrology. Do you have a friend who has studied. Prisons does offense. I love the twelve houses. Their houses suggest prison all by itself. So much suffering goes on among prisoners. There's so much grief the cells that's great thing about in English. The cells in prisons is the same way cells in your body so much suffering on among prisoners. There's so much grief in the salads so many bolts of lightening keep coming down from the unborn. Please don't expect it. The next president will be better than this one. Four o'clock in the morning is the time to read Buzzer leaders. Lead as as an old nasty writer who said look. This is a dark planet. Get your hand. Please don't expect the next president won't be better than this one. Four o'clock in the morning is the time to read buzzer ladies. Last every seed spends many nights earth give up the idea that the world will get better by itself. You will not be forgiven. If you refuse to study and not have to say that to myself you will not be forgiven if he refused to study. I'm trying to depress you doing so. I'm going to read the different shorter reform now for a bit. I started working on the Guzzles Gazelles. And that's the oldest poetic form in the Muslim culture which is a very great culture by the way very and it started in a tenth century as a love poem in Arabic and then gradually all of the various members of the Islamic culture began to write in that form and it has a Three characteristics which I will which I will Mention first of all. You're given thirty six to say what you have to say. And then you have to shut up. That is to say you have thirty six. They use to eighteen Civil Lines but in English. You can't continue align over fifteen syllables or so try yours. Three Sixteen syllable lines. You're you're got these syllables desire to have to say and then you have to change subject when that's interesting because he changes subjects once it changes it the second time and people in the audience in their in their Muslim understand. What the Hell is going on? What does this poem about at the same time? You're saved long long speeches by by remember. I I mean you know when he gets on wall. Don't try to stop it. He's very great corridor. I love him but anyway. So that's one characteristic that you change the subject after thirty sexual the second subject. Second thing is that you don't rhyme but the same word and every stent the same word or group of words and every stance. That's very interesting because just like you long for rhyme. You begin to long to see how that word you're gonNA come back you understand me. That's a lot of the fund that they have in listening to to guzzles and the third one is that is that in the last answer. You mentioned your name and part of that is done. I think because the Muslim world is so huge that someone can do opponent Afghanistan and then three weeks later it's recited in a in a cafe in Cairo and they don't publish they memorize so they're the only way you can identify this you to put your name in. And that's why it's called me is not his name means someone born in Providence Room and half has not his name of his means someone who has memorized the entire command and apparently that's how our fails that made a living by reciting current and I don't always do the third one in In the second one but you know I'm just a beginner. You know but this is all listening to shower. Them necessarily is very great Iranian singer and he gave a concert in San Francisco by ten days ago shot and there's a lot of connection between Iranian music and Mongolian music. You can hear horses in it all the time. So I mentioned that listening disarm knows agree. I know the hers galloping for Miles and I know the answer keep lifting their feelings to heaven and planning new triumphs. But it's already too late Naza RIA sings. I don't care if the second Adam comes down or not. I don't care if my words get you to cry or not. It's already too late. GotTa be with me already too late. Come on already to lay the smell of coffee from the fire. In the wild haired old women sing over the coffin go on complaining and crying as Ra. Too late I know sweet vowels and capable rhythms I always send my Home Sadan Hall and he said what isn't inescapable rhythm. I said I know sweet balls and inescapable rhythms and I know how sweet it is when a young woman is here and the old men think of God but it's already too late. My tongue never becomes bitter because my mouth keeps holding the grief pipe between my teeth. That's something that the Muslims talking about a lot always having grief we'll take you from being bitter and the thing is great. We're scared of everything that doesn't rhyme or something. I don't know we always want happy seniors. They say shoot happy thing. Let's get rid of my tongue. Never becomes bitter because my mouth always keeps holding the grief by between my teeth go on and conquer bitterness as ready turn lagged. Westend. I'm all alone. It's early morning. I'm so happy. How can so much grand your liberties? My skin go on asking as all ready to relate command you not doing it. He has already too ready to lay. And I don't know what that phrase means. Sometimes it feels very happy to me. Is I forget it? She's already married. What are you GonNa do all right? So I'll give you one uses. The same word at the end of the Muslims thing is very interesting they say God has existence and we have non-existence vendor something touching about that. Luckily we got something we got. Non-existence could have been worse. I think the bridegroom wanted to reach the Norwegian church but the roads remained impassable huge snows. We're each the bridegroom longing for existence. Marriage brings the moth close to the candle flame as one of the oldest metaphors in the whole world with their free wings. Men and women are constantly flying into the fire of existence. I read that again. Marriage brings them on close to the candle flame with their free wings. Men and women are flying into the fire existence. Some say that each drive groundwater in Kansas did. I change the subject here. Some say that each drop of groundwater in Kansas knows about the ocean. How can this be every drop of water long like us for existence? I would say he was an old Muslim Suffering man he was out in the Wilderness and he suffered they're very little food and everything for twenty years and he had no dragon out. There you talked once in a while. And when he came back to town and he became a very happy person then started a whole bunch of songs and twenty years later he went back out to who had been and he met the old dragon again and this is went happened. Say Facet in the desert for twenty years later when he came back his dragon friend Web. You're suffering give me a hint of existence. I never thought about that. The dragons don't know anything about diet and said you're suffering. Give me a hint of existence and this is my wife playing the Bach on the piano when the pianist fingers strike all the notes in the tenth. Prelude it's clear that box soul has been leaving about like a hair in the field resistance. Is that right when the fingers strike all the notes in the ten the prelude? It's clear box. Soul has been leaping about like a hair in the field of existence. Robert you're close to joy not quite there to see I finally bought. My name is kind of embarrassing wherever you are close to joy but not quite there hunchback standing in an Italian square looking in at the festival of existence. The lesson is essentially a memory of new party. Who has left? Noted he did that. Yeah the hunchback. And he didn't feel that he could appear there and he'd stand a little side alleys and see what is happening. This is the poem part of it. They're going to put on the buses so I'll read. You read this one allowed before never admired before it's called listening to old music and there's a very old instrument that that. Indians have called the river. Vena and I was listening to that. I don't know what would bring me closer to you. Maybe slowing down this. Maybe waking in the middle of the night maybe diving for the bottom. Maybe silence the speed of the soul. Leaping over fences brings the to- forward at other times a book resting on my chest. Takes me backward into my mother's arms? Those are the two that they're going to put onto buses people. Look at them and say what the Hell So. It's got a few more stanzas. Meet him the Aken the folder. My arm must be the old sadness that the newborn fields when. He says that his father has come to claim him for this world. The ache in the folder. My arm must be the old sadness that the newborn fields when he senses that his father has come to claim him from this world. Don't ask me whether to take plate or CIDER. Freud's change the subject in the middle. I say don't ask me whether the plate or cider Freud's what's that got to figure it out. Don't ask me whether to take aside for. Just come over here and help me burn my books so we can move to Argentina. Get too many books eventually. I'd the drum insists that tonight. We will be a long night. The Road Ravina goes on insisting that there is not enough suffering. The insists that tonight. We won't be a long night. Would Ravina goes on assisting. There's not enough suffering. Go on to Vena go on growling about God. I am rubbing my face against my little face like a blackbird flying through the nieves doesn't make sense but there's a lot of fun I'm rubbing my big face against my little face like blackbirds laying swiftly to believes okay. Good that's Internet one. No got four more. I WANNA do each year. Is that too much? We'll be okay for you know I did existence word existence now. I'll do one nonexistence called eating blackberry jam. When I hear that we all belong to non-existence drive my eyes. But then they raised them out of love for the little creatures of nonexistence some say the perch become like each other to keep the shark. This is this comes out of the Aquarium in Monterrey and I saw these fish. They were in a circle all going along and I said to my friend. What the hell are they doing that for? He said to keep the shark from coming into shark. Can't get a good fix on any one of them man. That's a big excuse for crowns per to become like each other to keep the shark from zeroing in but staying alive doesn't mean they are free from non existence. The cries of the infant barn swallows rising ingeniously cries of infant burn. Swallows rising from the mud nests fastened ingeniously to the rafters. This is a farmboys poem the cries of the Infant Barnes Wallis rising from the mud nests fad ingeniously to their. After's taught me to love the skinny birds of nonexistence. Taoist with their thin beards. Fishing all day with a straight hook. You know they do that. They do that. Taoist with your thin beards. Fishing all day with the street hook tell us they have learned not to expect a whole lot from non existence and the first answer though the road accidentally and then I had to go back and do five more blackberries have so many faces that there is kind of thickening of nothing. Each of US loves to eat the thick Syrup non-existence blackberries have so many faces at the jam kind of thickening of nothing. Each of US loves to eat a thick syrup. And I have to stick up for non existence in the last hands in in the original. Formula can go from six five stanzas onto twenty eight. But I always do six. Because I'm just the beginning we need stanza closes the same word. I'm glad friend says if you're proud of that you must be one of the secretaries of non existence. Here's an idea I did. My first book was called the Night. Abraham called the stars which has the forty eight of these and then the new book. My joy is another forty eight so I'm going to read this one that I liked in this book and I was trying to think what the most beautiful widening with language then. Maybe it's listening listening. The goose cries. And there's no way to save her. So many chiefs come from the Knicks by the river. If God doesn't listen why are we missing? Very deep water covers most of the globe whenever I see it. I think you've seen John. There's no med. For deep water. But listen very deep. Water covers most of the globe. Whenever I see John. There's no remedy for deep water. At least the King and Queen already knew about love. They search for each other through the whole deck. I mean eyemouth allergies so feeble that we have to go to a deck of cards to find the king the queen the King and Queen already know about love this search for each other through the whole deck while we play our hands. They are missing the day. We really needs to be like a fish. Abruptly jerked out of the water for him is the end of all listening. She how beautiful it is and you can change the subject like that. The day we die we lead three like fish. Abruptly jerked onto the one for him is the end of August. The only way to it is to learn the arts learn how to paint watercolours known how to write poems known how to do song playing guitar the only through to learn the arts and doubled them at Disney two homes after you okay. This is called the nut and actually lose wrong. Book Begins Guide coaches at night over a single pistachio. And I quit right there. Never figure that out. God coaches at night over a single pistachio. The vast -ness of the wind river range in Wyoming has no more grandeur than the waste of a child. The grandeur of the Wind River range in Wyoming has no more nor the vast of the Wind River Region Wyoming has no more Gandier than the waste of child. Haydn tells us as we've inherited dimension of the Georgia you're listening to something like unbelievable wealth staggering. Haydn tells us we've inherited a mansion on one of Georgia's than the last note runs down the courthouse and all the records. And I have a friend David Headstone. Who plays the tar? And he's done poetry readings with me for twenty thirty years and I'm sorry he isn't here tonight but his fingers have deep marks him from pressing down the heavy strings of the time they really having everyone who press down the strings with his own fingers is on the way to heaven. The pain and the fingertips goes toward healing. The crimes the hands of done the pain and the fingertips course toward healing the crimes the hands of dumb. Let's give up the notion that great music is their way of praising human beings. I mean that's so disgusting. I mean think buying you think balk here the damn about human beings and he did but he was German but the music great music to pay something besides human beings. You whether you believe it or not. I'm seeing something you let's give up the notion that great music is our way appraising human beings. It's good to agree that one drop of ocean water holds all of course bears. It's good to agree that one drop of ocean water holds all of Gore's prayers. When I hear they're CEJAR give out the story of its life. I know it's telling me how to behave. Well kissing the new ones feet to weep over my wasted life. When I hear the seater give out the story of its life. I know it's telling me how to behave well. Kissing the do one's feet to reap over my wasted life last Stanza Robert. This poem will soon be over and you are like a twig trampling on the lip of the falls. Like a note of music. You about to become somehow a statement like that which wouldn't feel quite right in fevers feel better attendance formed. Isn't it feels that way. You can say wild things when you're doing for them so this is the last poem I'm going to read to you. It's called stealing sugar. From the castle and the repeating words joining in the third stanza. There's an image of a bird flying into a hall and I think the bill bead mentioned it and I think it's referred to in human life is like a bird flying on snowstorm into a hall and singing and shouting and then they're flies out through the other window into the snow and that's human life is about that long. We are poor. Students stay after school to study joy. We are like those burge India mountains. I'm a widow. Whose child is only doing. The only thing I hold in my aunt had is the builders plan of the castle the Sugar. I have to tell you that the translating is like stealing sugar and I just. I put out a book recently called the wing and energy of delight and in Nevada and twenty-one reports that I've translated and as a wonderful way to steal her and reason I look so good as I've been stealing girl my life the only thing I hold in my aunt leg head is the builders plan or the castle of Sugar Justice Steel run greener. Sugar is a joy like a bird. We fly out of darkness into the hall. Which is lit singing and then fly out again. Being shut out of the warm hall is also a joy like a bird. We fly darkness into the hall which is lit with singing and then fly out again. Being shut out of the WOM- hall is awesome and joy. I'm a laggard. A loafer an idiot. One of my kids said you're wrong about the loafer part. I'm allegra loafer an idiot but I love to read about those who called one glimpse of the face and died twenty years later. I'm allegra too low for an idiot but I love to read about those who called one glimpse of the face in died twenty years later enjoy. I don't mind you're saying I will die soon. Even in the sound of the word soon I hear the word you which begins every sentence of joy. I don't mind you're saying I will die soon. I mean I don't mind just saying Yeah Robert Aren't you you're going to die is pretty soon. I don't mind you're saying I will die soon. Even in the sound of the word soon I hear the word you which begins every sentence of joy lessons last exit. You're a thief the judge said. Let's see your hands. I showed my calloused hands in court. My sentence was a thousand years of jewelry. That's poet Robert bly event in two thousand six. This has been literary arts the Archive Project. It's a retrospective of some of the most engaging talks from the world's best writers for more than thirty five years of Literary Arts and Portland. Join US next time for the Archive Project Literary Arts Production in collaboration with Oregon public broadcasting to hear more from the archive project. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts support for the archive project provided by Cole. Haan on a mission to fuel your big ideas more at Cole. Haan Dot com show is produced by crystal gory for radio and podcast special. Thanks to the Literary Arts Staff Board and Community. The show would not be possible without them. Thanks also to the ban emancipator for our theme music and thanks to all of you for listening. I'm Andrew Procter and this has been another edition of the archive project from Literary Arts. Join US next time. Find your story here.

Robert Bly Robert Iraq US Literary Arts Oregon Toronto Andrew Procter Cole Portland Little Lo- Heavens Skimpy Lords Haan Cole Haan Kim Stafford William Stafford Pablo Neruda Bill Antonio Machado William Blake
The Mother of Investigative Journalism...How Not to be Average Wednesday Quickies

HOW NOT TO BE AVERAGE

10:33 min | Last month

The Mother of Investigative Journalism...How Not to be Average Wednesday Quickies

"You want to know how to not be average create your podcast on anchor. All right, let me explain number one, it's free, and what's better than free to there's creation tools that allow you to record and edit your podcast right from your phone or computer number three anchor will distribute your podcast for you. So it can be heard on Spotify Apple podcast app anymore for you can make money from your podcast with no minimum listenership. Five, it's everything you need to make a podcast in one place. So download the free anchor app or go to Anchor and get started now. Don't be like everyone else you're better than that. Welcome in to how not to be average Wednesdays. Not your average quickie where we take a quick look at people that have lived extraordinary lives and see if we can maybe you know, learn a thing or two from them that we can incorporate into our lives and help us become better than average. Some of these people will be known to you some may not but all of that lies that are anything but average this week. We're going to be taking a look at an amazing woman. Not sure how well known she is I've heard of her but not often, you know just passing and if you've listened to this podcast at all, especially the Friday not your average news episodes, you will know that I am no fan of media wage frankly. I think they suck. And by the way if you haven't listened yet, what are you waiting for? Well, anyways this week we are taking a look at Nellie Bly the mother of investigative journalism. All right, let's get into it. Elizabeth Jane Cochrane was born May 5th 1864 in oddly enough Cochran's Mills, Pennsylvania, maybe not so odd. However since her father founded the town and a fun fact Nelly had for thirteen brothers and sisters my God. Nelly though despite the large family. She had a good life when she was young her father was a judge. So he was able to provide a good life for his family that is however until Nellie was six pack her father died unexpectedly. So while just losing a father as traumatic this death was more so since her father did not leave a will in there for the family had no legal right to home state. So side note get a will you worthless bums. You want to not be average? Listen only 22% of people between 18 and 36 have wills and only 36% of people between 37 and 52 have a will often get a will anyways back to the store. So Nelly lived a not all too uncommon, you know poor life as a child her mother did remarry, but she would ultimately get divorced due to half an abusive husband. So basically not a good life as a child. She would eventually go on to college where she was studying to become a teacher. However, you know, again due to financial difficulties. She was unable to finish her studies. So she moved back to Pittsburgh and working alongside her mother. She started running a boarding house. But Nellie like most people that refuse to be average. She would not be held down forever in maybe like the unlikeliest of ways Nelly carved her own path. So after being upset about a news article written in the Pittsburgh dispatch that was titled what women are good for and apparently it was very unkind to women. So try writing that article today. Nellie decided that she would respond to the article and she wrote basically a pretty angry letter to the editor and the editor credit to him rather than being mad. He was so impressed with her boss and skills that he gave her a job. And then this is where she sort of became known by the pseudonym of Nellie Bly. So at this time, you know women writers were often confined to writing basically articles about women for women, but not Nelly she decided to talk about you know, topics like basically poor conditions among working girls or slum life and then her ability as a writer soon earned her a rare opportunity the Pittsburgh dispatch gave her a chance to travel abroad to Mexico and report on corruption and not reported on it. So well that she was ultimately expelled from the country the thing about corrupt people. They don't like when you expose their corruption So now that her prowess was, you know, basically cemented as a journalist. She went off to New York. Where she got hired at the New York world. So basically the story kind of goes as she attempted to persuade her boss to let her right kind of this story about The Immigrant experience in America, but the boss was not terribly interested in that. So he ultimately shot it down. So what the boss was more interested in was looking at the poor conditions at this notorious mental hospital. So, you know Nelly wrote an average article about the hospital and received little Fanfare. No, she didn't are you kidding me? This Nellie Bly Nelly rather than being average made the Bold decision to get herself admitted to the hospital. She lived there for ten days in a mental institution and expose the appalling conditions from the inside in this place of birth of investigative journalism in our country. It not only earned her the place of one of the foremost female journalists in our country's history, but actually it brought about real change additions that mental hospital. So she used her powers for good which is what journalists Were Meant to do not be political operatives. Now, you know for the average person they may have rested on their Laurels at this point Bastin their Fame, but not Nelly. She decided decided to follow up her article, you know with an even more daring stunts. So apparently she had read the book Around the World in Eighty Days by Jules Verne and she decided to make that idea reality. Although in reality. It only took her seventy two days to accomplish the feat and set a world record in the process. So she travels from Hoboken New Jersey where she left in November of 90 or 1889. She left first by boat, but then she was also said to have travelled by horse Rickshaw Sam pom, which is sort of like a small coastal boat a birth road then just a bunch of other vehicles off. In 72 days around the world. So after this feat, you know, her stardom was firmly planted. So she would go on to Marry a Millionaire industrialist by the name of Robert Seaman and by all accounts. They had a good life together, but Robert was much older than her and he would die ultimately the 1904 but he did leave her in charge of his company Glad Manufacturing and during this time leading the company. She would go on to Pioneer the basic manufacturing of the first practical 55 gallon oil drum, which is interesting to note because that's the same oil drum. That's basically held as the world standard to this day off. Like how incredible this journalistic dropped out of college would go on to Pioneer the world standard four oil barrels. That's amazing. But boy, I was not finished being a Pioneer home. She would actually go on to offer her employees things that were unheard of at the time she offered him fitness centers Healthcare. She even offered libraries and she did this basically at her own detriment said that's good news or bad news, you know, it wound up draining her financially and she would eventually have to return to journalism. Although it was right on time it seems because she got back ilysm right is the women's suffrage movement was beginning to pick up steam. But ultimately Nellie Bly would die in 1922 at the age of fifty-seven due to complications from pneumonia So what life lessons can we learn from Nellie Bly that we can incorporate into our lives to help us be better than average first. I would say that we sort of learn from her that there's no well-defined path to success. You know, there's no roadmap that says hey do this then do this and then do this, you know, and then you're successful and we get sort of indoctrinated into that mindset of you know, I go to high school go to college start my career go to high school go to college start my career and that is not the path for most people and it wasn't the path for Nellie young people that are above average people like Nellie Bly they carve their own path. You know and I think that's one of the lessons that we can learn from her. You know, you can say well I was raised poor. So what so is she well, I lost my parents at an early age. So what so did she said well, I can't afford to go to college. So what neither could she right? So that might be maybe the second lesson that we learned from Nellie Bly quit looking at the obstacles in your life and making excuses start facing challenges head-on and looking for ways to move around the obstacles, you know, rather than just sitting there and being crushed by them. Another thing is there are thousands of Nellie bly's today and they're just waiting to make their marks and you could be one of them if you get out of your own way. So remember never settle never give up and never accept average You Were Made for More?

Nellie Bly Nelly Nellie Bly Nellie Spotify Pittsburgh dispatch Robert Seaman Jules Verne New York Pittsburgh Elizabeth Jane Cochrane America New Jersey Cochran editor Pennsylvania Hoboken Mexico Glad Manufacturing pneumonia writer
S3E11 - Woah Nellie Part 2

Pressure Points

1:11:05 hr | Last month

S3E11 - Woah Nellie Part 2

"The. Pressure points or the chassis hosts in the business I'm deep. This is my sweet little tootsie boy AJ we're hitting with season three episode eleven. Park to. Finance on instagram and twitter at point. So Freshman. Class. So you've definitely use saucy before you've called me your sweet little tootsie boy before get new material recognized. But I mixed them and it doesn't count a dozen bitch it's cannon. Damaged. Speaking of Cannon, the Free Office Chair Saga continues I'd like to start. With hosting, I sent you. Ten, minutes talking about my experience to your fucking triggered I am. So I'll set it up I. We've been looking on online marketplaces and things for free chairs just really putting out in the world broke boys to broke boys we're looking at. The cheeks. So. We sending this link, it looked like an office that was out of business or something, and they were just liquidating getting rid of all their stuff for free. There's like a couch, a bunch of really awesome like Orange Fluffy looking chairs like a nice like Nice Roy on top. Was it. Would kind of look cushy. Cushioning I duNNo. Nice. They look super. Nice because like. All right. Do you gotta get these like go call them right now to be fair all of those things were sent in different was d. And then a link and then get these now wars right now batching chairs was like Jesus fucking calmed down. Okay. You know you were excited about she. I was excited because it wasn't like they had a little speaker setup gas. Well, it was like, oh here's your surround sound speakers or whatever, and I was like Oh this sucks this looks good. They're. Nice TV and we've been talking about getting. A screen in here? Other than that one screen, we have other than the twenty seven inch screen. At it was excited to. Yeah. So. So what happened you call them or something I tried so I sent him a text didn't get a response as like what the fuck your address, like, how how am I gonNA come pick shit up my guess is that they've probably got a lot of people that respond to I'm sure there some good shouldn't they were like I'm not going to respond I'm not going to send an address. So using my phenomenal sleuth skills since. I work in the same area like e no shit I ride the train that goes past it and I was like there was one strip of green on the stairs and I was like that green looks familiar and so I searched a company and then I look at it on Google maps and in another one of the pictures they had like a parking lot on the outside and I was like okay and I like twisting Google maps. Yeah this is the fucking place I know where to go and went there and there were people there and I was like Holy Shit. You smooth smooth sleuth. You're killing it so I go over there and they said that you couldn't pick up well that they would start pick up from ten to twelve sounds like all right. That's fine. driving up there already people they're in there were like sitting out front. So I was like Oh maybe they moved a bunch shutdown and those saucy five or in chairs were still there I'm taking at least two of them because we need a guest chair. We'll get into guest here in just a little bit. So I was like Hell Yeah. So Park. Start walking over and there's a dude drove into the parking lot just before me and I, Shit. You not. He pulled in stopped like in the middle of the fucking road put it in Park and just ran out of his car like that's how excited were for like free office items. I don't know what the Corona virus has done to people but. He was pumped I mean I would have done that I'm sure. Got, dude, he was like full sprint. So He Wanted Those office chairs to? Because as I was walking up, he was rolling away with like two of them and I was like Oh there are three left him set no. So he starts, he starts rolling these office chairs away and one of these. It by the way, if this man is a listener, go fuck yourself. So. This big truck driving jerk off bald sunglasses forehead wearing asshole locks up and he goes excuse me I've already lewd claim on these chairs and the kids what he goes. Oh, I thought that they were like forever because they were out front my lay claim on Jeffrey and he goes he's like I was going getting my buddy so you could help me now it's like Well. This is GonNa be a she ran and got into just like mother folks. So I was like all right. Well, maybe they have some more office chairs because this cock sucker decided he needed five office chairs, Dick Five free office cheers you buddy. I laid claim to them. That's such a cock movie claim and walked away from home and then got mad at somebody when they were like Oh look free office chairs that are fucking free are sitting there. So I go inside I walk upstairs like Oh we can only have two people wanna time in there and it's like, Oh, great. This is going to go smoothly mind you it's like nine fifty five at this point. I walk into the room and it's like. The only thing left or this like weird little chair that has like fucking. Water stains on. Really, out yet, it's one. It's like a chair that you see at a shitty doctor's office, but it has wheels on it. Yeah. I know I, have no idea. So really confused couch was in there but the reason I wasn't like Oh. Hey. Jay. Couch is because it just was like you couldn't really tell it from the picture, but like all of the leather and shit on there was just so warned out at the picture. Perfect Probably, fit a couch cynically all that was left. Like cubicle dividers. In there was a box of like files and I, picked him up off his chair and I was like what the fuck this is the last year they had a And I was like well. I guess I'll just take this sounds second chair toss it into my car as I'm getting into my car guess who was fucking Park next to me. Chair dude. Yeah, and he's fucking lowering each one. Trying, to get them to fit into his little stupid suburban, his friend didn't even exist his friend coming around at the trouble on it s hall. Yeah. So It was like your your shock and I walked past and I was like, maybe we have an office I was like maybe I should say like, Hey, if I give you twenty bucks, can I take one of these a twenty from when you paid me for breakfast today and? I, look at him and I go. The shitting I don't WanNa fuck it talk to this guy. So I tossed back my car, bring it over here and I got to see AJ's fiance and AEROB- microbe in his row seventies porn star I called her while she was in the shower by sheer accident I was like I'm just going to drop it off over my girlfriend's place whatever. So pull up and I rang the doorbell like four hundred times like normal knock it knock the door like sixty times and then I was like I don't see age as car so I'm just GonNa call her I call her and she answered the phone from afar and as the fuck like I know that they don't have. Hidden body somewhere in the basement because I have a part. Yeah. All I'd have a role. So. She's all. Yeah. Yeah. Just give me a second in like two minutes. Go by like the issue bearing potties now. She opened the door and she should have. and. Just. Got Out of showers like aw man I feel. So fucking bad. Here's a really shitty chair that doesn't reach anyone's expectations that I brought here. Sorry to interrupt your peaceful time. So yeah, that's my story and I was really angry about it but however however. I was telling the story of my girlfriend and she goes you guys need an office chair. Yeah. So she says, well, my parents actually have one. She's like is this Nice Brown leather one. I was like Oh my God how the fuck have known about this all along. So The other day we go over there, pick it up, roll it out. Amazing. Great. Great. Little Chair Chair chairs the Best Jerry Most Amazing Jeff. Yourself. I'M GONNA, kill myself on Mike Today. So get this chair, bring it over and we all hung out and in the studio and it was delightful. She played the saxophone was great. Yeah it's fantastic. I guess I shouldn't bitch because we do now bolt have nice office chairs but our guest chairs like dumpster fire waiting to happen yet but that's your. Change soon yeah. Speaking of using the Guess Chair It's in the works for our Halloween livestream episode I. Don't know if we've even said anything about it. We talked about it last week s slightly we talked about like the homebrew. Okay. So we need to do a quick update on. Yeah. So we are planning on doing a livestream Halloween episode. similar to what we did last year. But this time it won't be on Instagram live or doing it on Youtube I think yeah. On our Youtube Channel and we we have some cool little ideas for you guys that will kinda make it a little more. Yes. We're working on that today. Good stuff. Come good October thirtieth I. believe the Friday before Halloween. Salary and the next day. Yeah I thought you were saying we're going to do it on Friday fuck vital it's going to be. We. Haven't decided like six weeks If you're listening to this on October thirty first I'm sorry if you might have missed our livestream yesterday. We we'll post about it when we actually I don't think we've actually confirmed at data we. We do live on string right now but. Have a an extra special guest. Yes. Maybe to maybe two maybe to cool. Yeah Gal see if we can rotate 'em in for coronavirus. Socially distance calls about six feet away. Sure. Something me laying down. So definitely not six feet three and a half. Yeah. Yeah. So it'll be be good. Little time. Yeah. That'll be great If you listened I think last week was the worst the worst last week goes war steps If you tuned in, we made homebrew I'm putting up pictures and stuff on the on the Patriot on, but we racked it into a new job today. Big Joke. Oh, it's looking good. Smells like alcohol got a little spray on our hands on AJ's face all over my face masks and it's yeah. I can see it right here looks it looks like shit water but it does lie photo clear up in the next week or two smells like trash but and just like alcohol and he Kills it gives us we'll do it on. Mike and. You'll hear it here first and somebody will report it to Tiktok. God fucking Crap Okay We're not going to get into talk. About TIKTOK. What happened with this week other than other than the Bruin Bruin. Oh you know I I've mentioned in the past few weeks that I just like looking at some of those online auctions and have a good collection of some old stuff not a not an extensive collection just the cheapest Shit I could find your vote was coins in. Yeah. So this week I got them right here in front of me I don't know. Episode that's a bunch of Nazi coins they shipped free actually having. You guys can't see him They actually have the. Little Swastika on there. Yeah. Because they were and this is during the war. So they're they're made of the of the ten I think those zinc. So then they're not the copper ones. So definitely mid war I've got the the ones, the fives and tens just a couple here found a good deal on it, and then I got an entire set of Nazi stamps that I accidentally one. I I went I like to go through Ebay sometimes just look at like stuff in the categories that I normally look at and then you sort it by. The like ending soonest. Similar to Ebay I'm guessing not set Ebay. I said, Ebay Hall this is on Ebay. said it was a different site. Oh, well, I do both but this one I'm talking about. Does he you sort it on ending soon as centers like so I forgot it was on that setting I thought it was just on relevant results like, Hey, note bid on this one it's really really cheap is like nine dollars bucket I'll I'll throw some money and there are probably be outbid. That's my that's my. that's how I treat most auctions is I'll probably lose but if I don't get something for super cheap, so then I bid on it. Sent my phone down went to hang out in my backyard, my phone buzzed looked at it and you won. Ten minutes later bid like two million dollars. You're like This'll be a funny joke bid her. You, fucked up. You GotTa pay to me I was like nine bucks free shipping. That'd be that'd be my luck. Yeah. It would just like ooh warned. dollers for one stamp but I did find on a different website is our APP it's a poker set carousel from I think the seventies. The little hand on it has poker chips all the way around it and place to cards and stuff poker nights. DNA, J. Heck. Yeah you guys are invited. I'm not around my. Content. For. Only. For Not Just US oh. Yeah. So I one that and it was like ten bucks but then you've got your little type, didn't you? Yes. That was an accident when a willing to briar pipe into broil par. So from what I can tell the the mount piece, I was looking into this with my father and with the mouthpiece is bake lite which was. Patented in nineteen O nine lead based. I think it's it's formaldehyde resin or something. something. God, but they had phosphorus resume. Delicious. Agent Orange based plastics mustard guests, stained Mohawk any more hall. Would yeah but it it's got bake lite. So it was probably from somewhere between the twenties and the forties Nice it's not bad. I got an almost hundred year old pipe for ten bucks not too shabby. Yeah. That's all bid. It's like. The minimum, which is usually ten dollars I'm like, yeah you do anything fun this week besides. Rage it. That asshole known. Has Been Anybody Computer I did actually finally have. Top. Yeah. Gets here while you guys are listening to this, I'll be geeking out and looking up weird pornography's on it so it'll be. Yeah get it. Monday to do. Yeah. It. Sucks when I was planning on getting it I love that word we're just burning through minutes on this. We don't have. So I I was, what was it Thursday Friday Friday I was like I'm GonNa it. I'm GonNa Order, it online and it's like to shipping. You'll get there on Sunday as like Shit I'll be fucking home yet. So I was like all over it on. Saturday like can be patient whatever. So you're not on Saturday and it's like one day shipping has God. Slow down and. Then, it was like, Oh if you order in the next nine minutes so I very impatiently waited for ten minutes and then and then order in bought it. Yeah. So here we are. Still using AJ's hand-me-down laptop. Hey, that is a great laptop from two years ago. No I'm saying like it's been handed down to me just furred. Three episodes but yeah so I'm excited tomorrow going to be a good day well today for you guys. Very eventful day. It's GonNa. Yeah. You're poor chap paintings God man get ready for callous as little guy that's GonNa get saucy actually. The opposite you get dry. As a bone goodness. Gracious. I think to just a cap this off before we transition into the episode. This chair makes me feel so official Oh. Really I feel like our content feels better already. Leaning back I've got my arms concerned my arm. The this part one and part two of knowing I was not planned whatsoever until like during the episode. Yeah. It was supposed to be just one episode. Yeah. We should feel official. Either special it was great. I ended up listening to the book I found it on liberty, which is related domain. Yeah. Volunteer read books. Awesome. But the I don't know if it was the same one that you that you stumble across but the it was raiders that I do Shit Tash. Jaw Trump different voices dancing me that like it sounded like Nellie bly was reading this to me in doing the voice. She's like she has a very good sarcastic way of reading the book too. And you're like you Sassy. So. Good. So listen to it if you want after this I mean even. Just, listen to me butcher the second half of this book. Where we left off. Nellie had checked into the working working women's boardinghouse. They ran into a bunch of shit. She was taken out of there. She was saying everything was sad. They take her oh yes. The thing about saying I. Don't know I'm just so sad that is a quote I didn't know about your just being dramatic. Relief said working so sad. Sad. You remember how you were saying last week to get checked into a an insane asylum you just furiously masturbate. Yeah. So a couple of days ago you've. Master I was on Reddit and on their front page because all scroll through over fucking hours. So it's like their top shit will be like five hundred likes or whatever. So it was. This Florida woman, which, of course. This is not a crossover. So she didn't climbed on top of her like new Toyota highlander buck naked. There's a fucking fat cop down at the bottom. It's like her on there and he's like trying to reach up to her to fucking fat short. So Aj was a police officer I was GONNA say either of us the police officer and she like this is on the like in the middle of the road she's use fucking dancing up there totally naked sits down and just start fucking masturbating us like she's crazy Aj confirmed or me boom put that bitch in a looney man. Center in I was laughing but it got removed like right after I saw I'm sure. Pure. I was. I I was really hoping upon would come to me no, no no. Huns looks like she contract. Come to the insane asylum. Horrible. I'm sorry I was hoping you say she would. Come to the conclusion that she was crazy. Oh, that's even better. Damn. I'm not one for putting. Don't be fucked. Okay. So After. Nellie says she's all sad. They take her to a doctor. He takes her to a hospital. She Co she speaks with a couple of women of. One of which says that she's not crazy. She's been telling you what she's not crazy and they're like tough shit. The other one doesn't know where she is yet and then they get moved to a boat and this girl tilly discovers where she is subset about it and like don't take their I'm not crazy like tough ship. So. Now, he turns to one of the guards and says, where are we and they say you're going to blackwell island an insane place where you'll never get out of. That's where we work now, Blackwill Island. was back then known as. Like the island with the hospital for the incurred incurable. it was Kinda like if things aren't going to work out for you seven blackwell, there was a place where literally the insane. So she arrives they do a little psyche evil before they get him off the boat or actually no, they can them off about the do a little psyche val in this room that's got a piano in it and Nellie has her little interview she basically just like like. Things are sad whatever and they for some reason ask your hey, do you know how to play the piano and she goes yeah I know how to play piano. So she plays like she just plays the song she likes them the. Wow 'cause everyone's in the room. Yeah. I tried to get some I I forgot to get some Honky tonk piano music. And So then an-and and Annette Net net. The doctors just like Oh my God this is amazing. No even turns she goes. Yeah. This badly out of tune tough Shit Oh. Yeah I remember that was weird. So insulting of her like this is a charity. Anytime, anybody complained and this is a charity. well-tuned piano then you get out of your own exactly. Yeah they were. Shitty. So She plays this piano. They're still convinced that she smells like a crazy person, fuck? Yeah and So they check her into Blackwell Island and. She kind of talks about like how the area's setup and she's like it looks clean. It looks Nice. It's not phenomenal but like things are there okay. Yeah. Things are put in order. Yeah. A and they take her to this area where has benches and they're just these like stone benches that don't have backs and everyone like all these women are just sitting on an like anybody that stands up there told sit back down So they have like to like Oh hey, it's fucking dinnertime and Nellie sits down and they give them tea and bread and prunes. So nellie drinks tea she's like Oh my God this tastes like dog shit. No sugar in the now mind you. You can sit here and say, like would what a? Bitch just she's complaining about her no sugar tea it's like, no, it's like week-old trash but butthole he added she say it was like pink and it. Only like the people called it t. but had nothing resembling. resembled, T and then she has stale bread that what they would do is put the butter on it and just hand it to like they handed to them. They're like, Oh, can I get bread? They like put butter on this fucking rock and hand it to him. and. She. Tries it and like she's like this fucking terrible and somebody seeming across from us. Okay. Nobody's the butter. The butter is terrible. Yeah. It's like rancid. Yeah, and they go ask for bread without butter. She's like okay but it's too late she asked for more in the like no Mike you got what you've got stop complaining and she doesn't eat a prunes either because. Now she does. Steal something from her yeah. They take her prunes in. She'd like gets a couple of them, but she's like it's definitely not enough to fill me up. And so she's just like I just forced down not because it's essentially your only option and she's like, I guess I'll fucking go hungry today. She choked on the bread like it was so shitty. We're talking about how she just on the bread so bad that the nurse gave her some milk a little bit of milk because she was coughing it us she's could not stop coughing from how Shitty this rock sand bread words the fucking worst. So a they finished dinner and they kind of go back to the same little spot where everyone sits really uncomfortably on these trash benches. and. Nellie is asked to play the piano and. She goes over and her friend Tillie. Says I I can sing really well and He's like I'm Kinda Kinda like maybe she is kinda crazy like. So they sit down and they first performed like rock a bye baby and she's like Tillie has a phenomenal voice and they ended up performing a few songs together and just blowing people away and it's like, obviously, you don't have to be crazy to have great talent but I feel like the fact that they're. Like if you were to diagnose someone if they can play the piano really well or seeing really well, yeah they could be crazy but the likelihood of them practicing if they're fucking lunatic probably slim to none unless they're like autistic and I'll tell you. That that focus even then don't. Like don't put them in. The moral of the story. I. So they perform and the is big old spinster bitch comes out and it's like it's bad time in the like. Okay. So, everybody kind of files gets an order and. Tilly talks about bat time and it is probably the most painful part that I reading. This book was reading about her bathing experience I so. Nellie goes into the bathing room and they're like strip down like take all your clothes off and she goes I would prefer I didn't I would prefer if like all the other women turned away this is kind of an intimate moment I don't want to. Get. In front of a bunch of people. And they're like so they tell her you either take your clothes off and we're going to violently take them off of you. Yeah. So she's like. Okay. So she strips down and I. She looks over and there's a woman standing in like a little tab. It's a it's like a small bathing area but there's there's this other lady that has just weird looking i. that's just in this like top. So now he's like I don't want to go over there. And she reluctantly goes over and she steps in and she says, it is ice cold water So this other this other lady pulls out a dirty rag and soap and his wall she's washing Nellie she's doing head to toe even washes her hair Nell even says like it was disgusting and my hair feel horrible. Yeah, and this lady, the whole time that she's washing no should just like scrub scrub scrub. She's one of the patients it's one of the patients that's also standing there naked just fucking washing the other patients. It's like Scrub Scrub Scrub, and she just like rubbing her down, she says she's rubbing like so hard. It feels like she's taking layers of skin off of her. And then this lady reaches over she gets a bucket and she scoops up water from. The TUB dumps it over Nellie and does a few times like washes her down everything and you're just like Oh God and like. She's just picking up his dirty fucking water and pouring it over her and. Rinse is often Elliot's freezing at this point. She's like fuck like nipples could cut glass and she could escape from this place easily So she walks over in the US towel honor and it's already wet. It's not like it's really drying her off and then they give her these like shitty close She puts them on and they soak through essentially right away. Yeah and the she realizes. That the water that she was in is the same water that everybody else is using that it's the same towel everybody is using up and she even says she says that it's this really course draw. Yeah. Course painful towel it's it is not pleasant and she says even the people with like sores and Shit. Our wiping it down and then it's being wiped on other people's faces. Yeah. So later on in the book she she says that they would only wash them once a week. So nellie was there and she had two baths. For Ten day visit The TUB is filled with water people bathed in the water until it was like she would say thick and dirty. Yes and then they would drain it. They wouldn't wash tub they would just drain it and then refill it right away. Cold water with cold water and it's like the shit residue that around the tub she talks about it. It's still there like Aj said, they use the same towel and usually doesn't even try them off because it's wet from I. Two three people like Christ take a shower after somebody and use their towel you're not going to get dry. Yeah. It's like trying to dry off your car with fucking wet towel. Just smearing it. Now they're giving one dress per week the next morning. So now he's giving her like this night thing to wear. Yeah. Like almost like a night kind of like a nightgown, but she asks for a new one later on But yeah, they're given one dress per week and The only time that changes is if the patient gets visitor and they're rushed out clean and redress to make everything look it's okay and. Then violent patients are like never washed. They're like never wash never treated there. If you're GONNA attack me fuck off. So she is taken to a room and she's told that she's being a pain in the ass essentially because she's freezing and she's like, can I get a like? Can I get a towel? Can I get a different nightgown or anything, and so they take her to a room that they're supposed to be like ten people in there and she's like still just freezing. She's like somebody do something and they're like stop complaining. So they take her to like the Ice Elation. And they put her in a room that has this heavy loud lock and she lays down on the bed and she talks about how she can feel her hair soak her pillow. Immediately, her body soaks her blankets right off the bat which soaks onto her bed. So she's just laying in this like wet bed all night and every. So often they'll just come and check on her and. pull up these locks that are just loud coke and she's like if I wasn't already asleep, it would scare me enough that like I wouldn't be able to fall asleep. And when she like persists on asking them about a new nightgown it's the same thing. She's like this is charity and it should. You should be happy with what you've been given everything and she's just like to. I'm fucking freezing here. So she said that If a fire had started in that ward that like she's locked in. And there's no way for nurses to like officially get people out because it's just like so much work to get the lock done. But even if they wanted to even if they wanted to she like I if if a fire started in this building, the staff would just leave us in here. They wouldn't go out of their way to save us she. She suggests that. To the the warden at some point she's all. Hey, you should look into getting like this big like lock system that opens all the doors at once and like locks them all at once. And he goes something like that doesn't even exist and she's all well. It doesn't say to him. She thinks he. was like the Pennsylvania Pittsburgh prisons and they had a system like that but I can't say, yeah, I was actually in your prisons because they just. The, like what are you talking about? Yeah I wasn't it a doctor who overheard or something and it's like, have you been locked up before guess I've only heard one of those at a prison. Yeah she's just like. No. Read Aloud. Almost herself. A few times she's like, Fuck Oh, like with the I don't WanNa Spoil. Yeah Yeah we'll get to so. The next morning, they're allowed to enter the bathroom and dry off and Kinda, like Cohn they're probably frozen hair hack and everything. and. They're giving IDA. Soom. It's probably the same towel, but it's like dried overnight. It's racket John. Fox Yeah one of my both of my socks. Slip. On. Lots of grip. So they're just a couple, a couple towels same thing constantly used, and so Nellie goes dry off and it doesn't do shit. So she just uses her skirt from her like new close to like dry wash your face and everything. So they sit down for breakfast and she asked for bread without butter and they give her bread and the crusted just blacked over. She's like what the fuck she says it the inside is basically nothing more than like dry dough. Patches like uncooked dry dough. Yeah. It's basically they put it in the oven on like four thousand degrees cooked the outside. It's dark. It's done and starting to smoke and they're just like Google is will be acceptable bread. and they're giving oatmeal with molasses and then the same t is before. So while she's eating the bread, she just like I've got to get something in my system I'm not gonNA survive ten days I don't eat so she starts eat the bread, but she bites in. She finds a fucking spider. Bread. Oh I forgot about that. So she's just like. I'm good on bread. So she STRUGGLEC OATMEAL and she's like I can't do like it's just the worst I'd imagine it's like You tip it upside down and shake it. Nothing would fucking come stays. Cement and then same thing she does her best and stomachs down the T- they finish breakfast and everyone kind of stands up and they'll look a little bit more excited and they're like okay like everybody get up and clean up. So the patients have to clean up after everything she was saying that you would expect that the reason the place looks so nice that the. Staff takes care of it that the staff cleans the windows are scrubs like the floors they take pride in their work in their workplace. Yeah. Now they make the patients do all of the work they make the patients, make the beds care for the grounds like literally everything cleaning is done by patients. Any entire time that they're doing it staffer just tormenting them you're not doing this, right Scrub harder kind of Shit and so I mean they. For a little while clean everything up get breakfast cleaned up, and then they're told, we're going to go on our walk. and. So at this point Nellie as in like I, think it was ward six. Yeah. with with a handful of other women but she didn't take into account that there are a number of other wards. So they go on this walk and they're giving these like funny Straw hats. No he says she puts it on and she looks over friend and Neville, which was the other one that was like saying. She finds an she goes I look at her and it's hard to distinguish her from anyone else. It took forever to find her because they're all in the same clothes. They all have their hair up and they all have straw hats on and. They both like look at each other and they both just start laughing. They're like we look fucking ridiculous we. Dehumanizing Shit now she s she meets an they kind of start watching in more and more women are just coming out of this hospital coming out of the asylum and she says, it felt to me like it around like sixteen hundred women are pouring out of this hospital to go on a walk together So off to the side, like they're, they're walking around the grounds which are beautiful grounds she says, Look Great. But that's because the patients are taken care of it and staffer basically whipping their backs. And she looks over to the side in their these women that they all have like like essentially a leash. Around their waste and they're all strapped to a cart and so like the given a little bit of room to roam. But like, and they smell like shit like you smell them across the lawn. Yeah. She's like you can smell them from far away and everyone's like trying to rush like disgusting and Nilly kind of like like what the hell she seeing that these women that are leashed up or just like muttering themselves and they all just dirty as shifty eyes. Yeah. They're all just kind of like like tents around the staff and everything and somebody says to her yet those are the most violent patients they take them elsewhere we don't see where they go. But we just know that they're they are. So she's already like what the fuck is this place like this is ridiculous already pretty upset and it's our first full day there, and as they're walking, she's a quote on the wall that says while I live. I hope and Nellie laughs and she says, I think that it should say inner inner book she goes. He who enters here lethal hope behind. You fucking. You Smart Ass I. Love It. 'cause I mean. Can you blame her? You get one bath a week. It's hardly even if that you're just giving wash with everybody else's dead skin. And then you're going to dry up, you freeze your tits off that night and then it's like cool. You'll be comfortable the next night because you're not going to be cold and wet bringing a smelly dog shit after a day of cleaning and walking and eating shit. Food. Yeah. This just bounce. You'RE NOT GONNA. Be a clean person here holding your shit until you're allowed to share with everybody else until you're. Yeah. Until they say that it's all right. So throughout the time that she's she spends there So obviously they get back and they start launch and. I kinda just like wrote down all the ship that she eats just because I was like I want to keep going over it and so I she says it they're fed rotten potatoes soup but the only flavoring the Subas. So it's basically chicken broth but like Hundreds trash chicken broth bits old, and they just put mustard and vinegar in there which it's like that'll be fucking delicious. Yeah. They would give them boiled fish. Oh Yeah. She kept going. She kept talking about the boiled fish. Yeah. We'll meet in an unseasoned cold mutton and beef now when I read it as I plead not terrible like maybe she's eating skits like steak now she's probably getting like ground beef or like Chuck Steak essentially, that's cold likely overcooked unseasoned, and it's probably dry as hell as it was probably cooked in war. Yeah boil. So all the juices, the fastest flavorings just go away, try it in it's cold. Yeah, and then yeah, just dried out just terrible. So if they ever complained about the food do were told to shut up and they get lectured on charity which. too good for charity patients is what they would tell them which. Is this is too good. What the fuck are you. Yeah and. And everybody who all these people all these workers were talking about. They are all nurses or doctors. Yes. This isn't a janitor. These are anything like a secretaries walking bassin goes well, you shouldn't complain it's like these are the people that are meant to care for them. These are the people that like would check on them nightly the same people it's not security guards. It's literally nurses, the people who are supposed to be declaring them insane or sane. So at one point she saw she saw into the staff eating hall on one of their breaks or like one of their little walks and she saw that they had grapes melon these really nice meats and like fresh bread that they could smell. And she's like it would make us so hungry and one of the things that these women would do when they pass time because you'd go on your walk, you'd get back for lunch in clean up and then he would sit on these like godawful uncomfortable stone benches that you can't even lean back he can't lay down. Earl staff yells at you. So. She said that a lot of time they would just sit and pass the time by talking about what like foods day yeah. When they got out of there and she's like it sucked because they would just make us real likely more Hungary Where like Oh man than kick like fucking chocolate cake and like yeah that sounds Nice. I. Had one in six years and I'll never have one again. Kind of thing was kind of is heartening your cheeses man like, wow, this is all these ladies can really like chat about anything else in the staff would just like get. Up and yeah so. The doctor comes in the second day and he's examining Nellie and he tells her He tells the superintendent that she have the eyes of the heartbeat of the insane And he just goes. So Mr Dan, who's the superintendent? He's a like ward and essentially he says in cases like these tests usually fail. So it's just like like there's really no winning in any of these cases. Like your this is exactly what I mean is you're bound to just die here in a lot of cases. A and women would just complain about being cold like they would just say, Hey, like I'm freezing get a blanket. They're sitting out in these big halls where it's really cold already and they would just beg for death. They're like, fuck like can I just die already because that's the only way that I'm going to get out of this place now this seventy year old blind lady. She would prey waller sitting there at these benches and she would just pray please take me home like begging very ailment. All. Yeah. Anything to bring her warmth and like the cold touch of death is apparently warmer than staying at. His fucking island. Insane asylum. So she'd be taken from her room at night to the courtyard. She would be told to sit on the bench and she's already complaining about being cold. So Hey, come out to the courtyard. They'd sit on the bench, give her these heavy shoes and they would just watch and laugh as she would bump into table She's blind she has lime. And they're just fucking tormenting her. So she's bumping into chairs and tables and she just trying to find a way back to her bed so that she gets some kind of warmth and she would stand up bump into something fall down and they would pick back up. Get Mad at her till an estate and she's just crying and freezing like. nightly. This is their they're tormentor. Yeah. Some staff were wearing coats and tilly Natalie's friend. She is suffering from what Nellie essentially thinks is hypothermia like she's just shaking and she passes out. So nellie goes to the super like she's all. Hey, this girl is GonNa die like she's GonNa die freezing to death and he walks into the courtyard finds tilly and he grabs her between the eyebrows like right right here. And pinches as hard as he can, and at this point like Tilles already passed out and he's just pinching between her eyebrows and her whole face starts to turn red and as soon as it happens, he lets go and walks away until he's gotten up at this point, she's like Oh my head till he complained of headaches for the rest of the day imagine squeezing someone's. Skin like just a little little passionate skin hard enough that their brain hurts for twenty four fucking hours as lake. This is the entire like I'm basically just kicking through a lot of the the abuse and it is horrible. There will be a part way talk about a lot of different women that experienced that have different terrible experiences. We'll get a little rough and saucy but like. It's just like what the fuck like, how is that way to treat hypothermia as like? Oh, it's because this part of her face is cold. Let me just get blood back to her brain like what is spoke. So she nelly just talks about all of the days are like this. They're all endless your cold in the morning you get shitty food you clean and then you sit for hours and you can't talk about anything. Really. So one day knowledge told the she's got a visitor and she's like what the hell are they checking me out already so she's Up to this little visitor room and she sees another reporter not somebody that works with her yeah. She'll. Oh, I almost. Sorry. Forgot that table was. Who Do we put out there. So she goes, she's like walking up to this room and sees the other reporting. She's like fuck they're going to blow my cover. I'm not going to get the story that I want because this point she's seen a few things but. Like Gay, you could Kinda, do like this expose but she only has like two or three things that she can really point out your. She's like I need more time here and this was somebody that she had worked with like Jack because she had been this guy recognize her she says she's walking up and he just kind of like turn. He's like what the fuck so she walked into this room and the spinster bitch that walks with her as locking the door and Nellie leans across the table and basically just whispers don't give me away like I'm working. Don't give me. And I did you did it say she did it in Spanish no. Okay. No, I wasn't sure. That was how she tried to like convey the the craziness at the end. She's like, do you speak Spanish does right? Yeah. So. She says that like he looks terrified how she looks mind you this she was only there for ten days total. So the. Day three three or four, and he's just like in August how fucking horrible. She looks after four days here, which is interesting I think that later on she talks about it the like this place. If you're saying, it will make you create. She says that And so he just looks like what the like. Okay. You got it whatever. So chead, she's like okay like. He asks her a couple of questions like Oh. Hey I you're this girl from Cuba or whatever like they're still trying to figure out who she is so similar to when she was in the hospital in the last episode when reporters would come in and look out are like, oh, hey, a crazy bitch from Cuba that doesn't know where she's from near we kind of glossed over that in the last one. Investigators were coming to look at her to find out if she's one of the missing people that they're paid to find. Yeah. Like one of the local missing people. Yeah. So kind of the same thing, but this guy had actually recognized her So despite what's been going on for three four days at this point, she's still just like I need to stay here. Something needs to change. So she tells us like, no, I'm not gonNA like just don't get me away. And then I think it was as he was like he gets up or he asks for something about Spanish she asked him I forget her spinster stands up to unlock the door and she basically for like thank you unsafe but like thank you keep quiet. And don't tell anybody that I'm here kind of thing. So, everything's cool and she set a everything's cool like her cover. Hurry. Blown everything's fucking terrible there but. Luckily. It's not like they know that they have a quote unquote rab and they just GonNa murder her blatantly so. At this point she's realized that like time is passing and she needs to find out what the fuck happens here. So she talks about like she'll go an interview staff not staff she'll interview patience she'll sit down and say, hey, like, Hey, what's up? Now, in the book, She's got all their names. I didn't break down because I was like I don't. WanNa get confused with like I don't want to confuse anybody's GonNa crush. Yeah so. I she recalls at one woman who was born with a mental illness and her trigger was her age checked in and she checked in Walnut Elliot's there, and this girl thinks she's eighteen years old and if anybody said anything otherwise she would get really upset. She just throw tantrums breakdown fill on huge emotional breakdowns. So staff find out this is what's happening and they start telling a like like she's standing there with them and they go. She's thirty three years old I looked. At it in a records she's thirty three and it's just like what the fuck like. So this girl starts breaking down, but she would throw these fits and they would still be like, Oh, you're an old woman like fucking taunting her and she would just start sobbing and when they get bored of it when it's like when they would get tired of her crying about it, then they would just be like stop it's time to be done I don't throw your anymore as. On Anymore I don't think this is funny like what the fuck so when they wouldn stop the tackle her to the ground starts slapping the shit out of her choker until hand marks were left on this girl's throat and she would just stay in a room and cry the rest of the night like you're like, what how the fuck is this an okay with a handle house this nurse mental choking somebody else someone that was like mind you in any case it's not okay. But somebody that doesn't understand she thinks she's eighteen. Now and there's no you're not in it throws her off There was another older woman who would get tracked by her hair into another room and she would just scream please please don't beat me and then you could hear her cries just getting softer and softer until you couldn't hear anything you're getting it from the courtyard from her room. And then like you wouldn't hear her screaming anymore you in here crying and these staff walkout and they go Dutch steadily old full for a while and you're like what the fuck and they're saying this in front of other other patients to scare them from quote unquote acting up. Yeah. One of them was. Like she went up and like one of the staff spit into a dis- patience ear after whispering something like came up. Hey, I've got a secret goes up and just spits into this chicks here. You're like what? The hell some of them would be brought out like they will be brought there just because they were poor. So it's like they don't have mental illnesses. They're just play and they know that they know that's the case. and. They get checked in and they're just being accused strictly because they're poor and if you want more information on that, listened to our eugenics episode fantast it is it is it lines up essentially perfectly yes. This really this is a great example, yeah? Oh God both the I. R. B. Episode and the eugenics Episode Jat, no joke now are you gonNa talk about the lady who who liked to have the male attention her like. Yeah. So But See one she like when she was told that or should I just lost my place? she was sent there because her she told her husband that she found other men attractive. How dare? Right how you how dare you have like human emotion and staff would go up to her and lied to her and say like Oh hey. This other guy is into you you Shannon. Hide Asks Duster. Down Dr, Dreamy makes an appearance again. And she's just they're like Oh yeah. This guy thinks that you're cute. So she would go like hit on them and They would just laugh at her. I don't want to be with you and then they just mocked the shit out of her. One of these ladies was an immigrant that was looking for work, but she didn't understand English well, I was just German. Yeah and so the police were called when she got sick in a women's boardinghouse where Nelly at I checked in not same one but similar circumstance. And they're like, what are you doing here and she can't answer. So they just bring her to the insane asylum because she can't speak English a God forbid, and so she wouldn't be able to understand staff, and so they would choke her so hard that our throat would hurt for days on end There was another lady who had a disease and told was told by her doctor that she shouldn't bathe don't take cold baths do literally kill you. Yeah and sure shit this is what you're referring to. They would like she told him I should not have bath. They were told by like the staff is sold by that even the doctors and they would still force her to bathe and her condition continue to get worse for weeks. Yeah. Because they made almost every day it'd be multiple times whenever they were bored down there was they would just take her yeah, and it's not like all like she's finally. Getting Bass this is bad for and they're probably using old shady water I'd assume that she probably has like open source or open wounds. So they're just pouring garbage water into a wounds. It's like what the fuck is wrong with you guys there was an let's see nurses would lie about patient injuries that were sustained during beatings. So they smack the shit out of these women give them black guys. And they would say, Oh yeah, that was there before they even checked in. Yeah L. Lady ended up dying the Bath Ladies Yeah Yeah. Yeah Yeah mentioned that all my bad. Yeah, she ended up dying one night from the bats from the the treatment it's. Like by by staff hand to mind you, it's not like they're the staff just sleep on site they're supposed to be checking up on them as well throughout the night in its place it's an asylum or people who cannot help themselves. That's why they are there and they're just like Oh let's beat the shit out of him and hope that they make through the night and if they don't. That's their problem. Not Mine I. Assume they didn't even have fucking incident reports back. Oh no no it when they would like Kerr card off the body she said, they would just they would always say that the cause of death was complications from their mental illness exactly She has choke marks on her neck. It's a complication from her you know wanting to masturbate no big deal. A So the head cook would show up every once in a while and he would bring like the nursing staff raisins, crackers fruit. and. They would just eat it in front of the patients there was a woman that thought she saw her husband while they were on a walk and she started running towards him. So later, that night she was beaten with a fucking broom handle they jumped on top of her and it was basically like she said, if felt like she had sustained. Internal injuries and it's not like they're just kneeling on her delivery jumping on this woman I they tied her hands and feet, and then she said that they threw a sheet over her head and they twisted it until she couldn't breathe anymore. So they're just twisting and it's tightening on her neck and obviously like she can't get oxygen in which is a lot like wearing a mask in twenty tw-. God shut up. I and then they so they'd like Rafferty. This fucking sheep twisted up until she can't breathe and then they throw her in a bathtub of cold water and hold her under there until she's almost dead until she passes out and then lift her out. Let her get air do the same thing. They would pull her out and then they grabbed her by the ears and they just slam her head in the floor in the wall and they're like ripping out her hair and she showing Nellie like where they've pulled. Out of her head. And, she said my treatment is as bad as I've seen other girls get here but it's ruined my health and even if I do get out of here albeit wreck. the they're just blatantly abusing these people. Yeah. That that quote itself is just proof that even if you're crazy and go in here, you will be crazy. They are driving their patients crazy with the abuse and it's like Aj said do would be told by. The beatings that like. Your beatings aren't real staffer go here like it's not real. Result of the diseased brain essentially yeah. It's all a hallucination. One night the nurses and doctor threaten L. E. IF she didn't drink this. Medic medicine concoction that I would help her sleep that they literally injected into a vein and she sits there and she's like, okay like I'll drink it. I'll drink it whatever. So at the handed to her and she smells it and she's like this is law dumped. Yeah. That sounds like a lot of them. Yeah, which is if you don't know what It's like every fucking opiate out there a morphine and Codeine so you know a nice. Young. Sounds like a great Tuesday night, which would be perfect for injecting into your arm. dillashaw delightful. So she drinks it and as soon as they leave, she just forces her hand and throwing starts throwing up. Just, thinking it out of her system, it's not like there was any food and her body. was just an. All, my God and like the women there would be. So out of I, don't want to say out of touch but like they keep everything. So lockdown like anytime. Anyone had something from elsewhere like a lady had these newspaper clippings and they all just like we need to read, we need to read it and they're like we would read it over and over and it was just something from the outside Jeff. There was a lady that a brought a baby and this one lady held it and as soon as they take the baby. like it was a visitor essentially as soon as they take the baby away like, Oh, it's time for us to go this lady starts Fitch. She's like now it's like what? Happened she lost like five children. She had lost her. It's just like what the hell. So beater of course figures probably fuck ter- the broom handle for. And then they gave her a bath. Yeah. Really though perfect exactly what you need. So finally the lawyer comes to Nellie and he says, Hey, you're getting checked out So as she's leaving, she's just like, Hey, like Dubai everyone kind of just like bidding them farewell telling him Hey I'm Gonna do everything I can to make sure that you guys get Outta here so. She just says it. She wishes she was able to take them with her because she knew that even if she does this big expose that some of them are gonNA disappear some of them aren't going to ever really get the help that they need whether this place shuts down or not. They're going to transfer elsewhere and it's just going to be just as bad. So a couple of days go by and she's released Oliver stuff and the grand jury reaches out to Nellie and says, we need you to testify so that we can do an investigation into blackwell island and so now he's like, yeah, absolutely I will happily join and they hop on this boat to go check out blackwell island and she says the boat did they get on is so much nicer than the first one? Yeah. It's like a yacht compared to the first one. Mind you what we like. What you read is like her articles that they've read but then at the end she like, Hey, the grand jury decision, this is what So they tell her, Oh, you're the book that we the you're brought in on it's under maintenance. Repairs like fuck off get Outta here. So they pull up to the asylum and Nellie is kind of like something doesn't feel right because everything looks like clean. It's quiet. It's quiet. Ones screaming everything's just the nurses are all happy and everything and Nellie gets word from one of the patients that she recognizes that the the asylum was notified like an hour before that these guys were coming. So shady yeah. So It's not just that they're showing up, they're coming to investigate. So they clean things, they put certain women Like. Finale talked to do were just hidden. Set to stay. Sane one. Women the yeah they said they were abused. Nellie asked, hey, where's like Joanne? Where's Gertrude or whatever the ones who were saying testify the ones that were saying enough to tell Nellie, her story like be beaten with a broom handle and fucking waterboarded the suddenly don't exist. Dent the superintendent goes. We've never had anybody by that name like we Yeah. We had that person but they've been transferred elsewhere to a much better hospital or they passed away or yeah. No Shit. They pass away their beat to death So any time these investigators would ask nurses about anything. They would tell the opposite of what Nellie had had talked erred like released so like. They approached the superintendent and say what about these baths like are these bats cold? What's going on here and the Superintendent Goes? Well, I don't really check the temperature of these bats of honestly the only reason that they would be cold is because we lack funding. And Vinnie like Oh why aren't the doctors competent with how to handle these mental disorders are, why aren't they able to tell that this person is saying and this person is insane? Yeah. We've got proof right here that we sent a sane person in here like what's going on in the superintendent says same thing we don't have the funding to hire doctors. We tell the difference we can't afford with good doctors. So we just have the bad doctors. Oh God, it's so. Bad all he does is he just complained and says, oh, we don't have the funding round the funding. So all in all New York gets their shit together and they say were re appropriating one million dollars in eighteen eighty seven were reassuringly re appropriating one million dollars for asylums and they disperse it probably didn't go to what they thought. It probably just went to fucking lunch fees for the lunch fees for nurses in like new uniforms like I'm sure nothing changed for years. now for Taito up. Just towards the end. No he had one of the best quotes that I've heard and she said the Insane Asylum Combat Blackwell island is a human rat trap. It's easy to get in. But once there it's impossible to get out just perfectly what the hell sums it up. Yes. I remember that during the like when the grand jury was questioned, people would actually question some of the patients and the patients totally ratted on them. Yeah and She's like. There's been some of the doctors would come out and say, yeah, those nurses are a little harsh like. Even some of the doctors did and God kind of recurring thing that happened throughout it was at Nellie would go to like certain doctors or the superintendent and say like, Hey, you should do this or you should do this or do you know this is happening kind of thing because after a couple of days she decided to just act completely normal. I'll just to see if they could like figure out that she's saying stop being like this. Oh. Everything's so sad start she's became her regular self. And a Lotta Times she go and like one time she complained about being an extra cold and the doctor was like, okay. Here's an xtra jacket for this is for staff error for for employees and employers for patients but the nurses always wore them and she would she went and she gave it to Tilley at one point and then the nurses said. If you fucking rat on me again I'll end your life essentially beat the shit out again and again and again do oh, my God terrible. It's absolutely terrible and this is one facility across the thousands of facilities that were active in the United States just the United States just one and it's not like there was one per state like don't know third hundreds like possible I don't even know what the was there was. Just hundreds of them for multiple per state tap, and obviously some are going to be better than others but overall based simply on the fact that like a this institution was like this, and then what and this is a good institution fourteen later fourteen years later. The Florida School for boys opened up. Yeah. In one, thousand, nine, hundred and nine, hundred ten right around there and it was still just as fucking bad. It's like what's wrong like woods so wrong with our system that Like you can't help people like, yeah from. America where Shit about anybody institutionalized or anybody at all besides us? Yeah. Exactly. So living in Utah heads up if you see anything about a lifetime movie on Nellie, bly don't watch it. Oh, i. came across that too because they they're like, oh. Hey, it's Nellie bly ten days in a mad house you like okay. Cool to thing is at the end of the movie instead of making it about like mental health awareness they're just like, oh no, he starts to lose her memory and maybe she's been a patient here all along and it's like that's now what was. Not what ten days in a mad house about? Maybe it was. Crazy the whole time no, it's just like Oh. My God, Dude that literally opposite it's Someone, that is saying should not be there much like Tillie much like an Neville. It's like that's the opposite of what this book is trying to convey, and they're like to news madhouse featuring Nelly bly she was crazy all along. Time. Lifetime puck you. Christina the in it. I don't know who that is. WELP regardless if you see it and you're like, oh, intriguing don't fuck bucket yourself. Because it's the OH. Oh Oh I. thought if you walk it. And you're like, Oh this is good for years. Yeah. That case go fuck yourself Yeah. So ten days in a madhouse Nellie bly. said. If you can find the the audiobook like Aj Senate's on Lipson. Liberal. Vox Liberal Vox. From easy books. Do it like it's a great read. It's a great listen There's a youtube that has as well. A Youtube Jesus Christ here. So all there's a youtube channel and has it on there to. A, there's a youtube guy you to boy the desert knives one of them newfangled video but if you can find it, I definitely recommend I, don't do it justice by any means it's a great story in a quick. She's an amazing amazing portrayed her entire story across the the yearbook is like two hours. Yeah it's Not even fully ninety six pages over hours, and we barely scratched the surface like the the ninety, six page book. Even, like I would say ten of the pages are her other experiences they're like, oh. Hey here's a little preview for like another book or some of her other articles. So it's it's short and it's amazing. I definitely recommend. Yeah it's it's totally worth it like you could. Do a day. So a big. Thank you to our patrons. Haley. Case Mc Facie dark runner and I always forget it todd todd todd toodle toddy tools something like that. We won't we won't slaughter your name. Yeah sorry I'm trying to pull it up but I forgot my password Taty toodle haughty tools. Huge thank you to you, guys. As. Usual Finance on instagram twitter at points. Oh pressure follow the link in our description if you wanna, find an emerge. If you WANNA find our youtube. We will probably be like on Youtube. That's where we're going to be live streaming So we'll probably provide a link in the next few days or some shit with the day of yeah. We'll. We'll talk more information or to find it are keep subscribe to the Youtube you'll get the notifications the youtube. Yeah at point. So pressure find US everywhere in. Tune in next week with catch guys later.

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Ep53: Skip Swies on the Mens Movement

In Search of the New Compassionate Male

45:54 min | 2 weeks ago

Ep53: Skip Swies on the Mens Movement

"And I said Dad. How come you never said? You love. And he person not hers. They said I didn't know how. Because my dad never told me. So I got. A sense. I mean it was it was. Life altering for he and I? Our relationship was different after them. We could share. We could share our sadness. We could share our joy we we could. Actually, have a conversation. Hello World it's me Dennis and today on in search. Of. The new compassionate male. Im the producer and I'm here with the founder Klay Boykin. Hey, Dennis how you doing Doing. Well, thank you rate skip. You're here finally. We've skip skip. We're no longer being. Skip sweeps you and I met what? Three or four years ago as a been actually clay, it's longer than that, oh? My. It's probably a good six years ago six years ago. Well, I'll tell you what one of the things that. First thing I thought about when you and I first met with. Or this guy's been around the block or yeah you know you've done your your family counseling in visual counseling for. Thirty thirty seven years or something like that and. And you've been doing men's work. Since the beginning. And I really I. Really. WanNa go back to the beginning our early. START DARE AND Understand the evolution from your vantage point and compare it to what's. What we're doing today. Yes. So New Picture Yeah do you see an arc here in the evolution of men's consciousness and what what is going on please please Oh. Absolutely. I got started in men's work. Oh Gosh. Back in the in the late eighty S. And a friend of mine ahead invited ME TO COME TO A. Immense group that he had been attending. A small group lead by mandate became a mentor of mine for a number of years. by the name of David Gershon. And It was my first experience at. Men's work you know doing. Yeah you know it's Being in a room full of men You know it's it's interesting. I look back on my. MIC passed and. I look at at my father who was kind of a loner and Kinda quiet man and. And, I. Wouldn't you know what raised me to do the same thing? Morley's that's what I learned. And so it was. My first experience in a in a room full of man. That had. To. Go to do something other than talk about what fall and and and and surface stuff. Was just an unknown to me. What what's interesting about me saying that is that the prior? Since the early eighties. I had been teaching Ching personal growth intensive jobs. All over the country for. Global Relationship Centers Understanding yourself another scores. You may have heard of that. Class. And you're doing that with individuals and couples is that correct? Yes. Now that was a group process and from that people would come to me and they've they'd want individual work. To do individual work and so that took you in into men's group men's the men's group. Yeah and out of that experience, I attended my first men's group and what was interesting is. In that first group There's a circle of us, maybe six or eight of us in the room small room kind of dark and. It was you know the upstairs counseling room for this guy and The lights were low and he had a candle lit I walked in and I'm thinking okay kind of new aging and A. It sounds Kinda cultish to me. I didn't quite know what to expect, but you know we sat in the circle sat on the floor. And he brought out his talking stick. Nah I don't know if you're familiar with that concept, but the stick is passed from man to man in the circle and when you receive the stick. Your it's your turn to talk and you speak uninterruptedly I mean, you have absolutely the floor. Or you can pass and give it to the next guy. And that I watched that stick come around and I'm sweating because it's coming to me. and. Generally. I'm not at a loss for words in a group setting like that. But I'm. Sweat. And I wanNA tell you when that stick pass to me it was electric. Because I got a sense of the history of that stick, how many hands said it had passed through before it got to be. And I thought, okay. Okay there's something special. Happy. And So that. Just, lit me up for doing work with Man I knew when the stick got to me. That it was safe. That I could share what ever I wanted. At opened up a spiritual quality in May that I hadn't felt many many years. See I thought you were GONNA say. You're scared and fear there. But who just the opposite some energy and that. It was. Watching, watching the stick coming around and having the men share and listening to the quality of the shares. I was getting nervous. I. You know who to be amongst these men down exactly are I'm a duck among amongst eagles. And and And it just all changed when the stick. When I when I held that, stick my hand. Well, the sticking itself going around the circle that. Came came up for me when you were talking about, it was the ritual. Over the centuries of the stop talking stick and all that. That represents the the history. Ages and ages of history in that stick in addition to the people who. Currently carried it. So yeah, I get that. and. It's it's interesting when. You mentioned the ritual and and. Being I was never member of the elks club or Any fraternal organizations other than my fraternity in college and wasn't Sure, there was no sacredness. But but you went. Okay. So you started. So you you're in that small circle. But she started to bridge over and started to do your own circles or you? Yes. I, did that work for a couple of years with him and then actually went into a more spiritually oriented. He called it his spirit tebas and we learned about the medicine wheel hub. Learned bears version of the medicine wheel and taught that to us and and I, kind of carry that forward through. My work. Very shortly after that. A friend of mine Dan Bollinger And I developed a program called finding the father that's what it was. Okay. Tell us about finding the father's. Finding father was. Well. Couple of things. When you stand in front of a group of man and asked, what does it mean to be a man? And I know you had this experience play. into and Dennis as well. My experience with that is when I posed that question to a group of men. I get the looks that vary anywhere from. Terrified. I've even had. grief-stricken. Like Oh, my God, he's he's asking me what this means. And I've got to come up with an answer and I have no freaking clue what it means to be a man. I didn't learn it from my father. He didn't learn it from his father and so on. There was no way to pass on what it meant. To be a man. So for some of those people that was a real moment of truth. Oh, absolutely wives. And and so. In opening that conversation? You Open Up. What was the nature of the relationship they had with their father? Or with a mentor in their lives or other males in their lives. This may sound familiar clay I I don't know if you can see this in me, but I tend to compete with other males. It. I caught myself at least back. It was pretty overt someone would tell a story and I'd have to top it. You know and and I. I finally started here after all just a couple of weeks in the original men circle, I started hearing that. And I thought okay. There's something going on here. Something deeper something. That I'm unaware of. and. I have no clue what it's about an interesting that I'm saying that because I'm teaching people all across the country. Dive into their the emotional baggage. And unloaded and you know and and here I am. Fronting my father would. That don't you in your work in psychotherapy neural though work does isn't that exactly the way? Always is. I find I I find I, find that whatever I most want to emotionally judge someone else about. It's always about me. And I can tell by the degree of judgment when I need when I say judgment I mean when I have to make them in some way wrong for it the more it's truly my issue. And I but the converse also must be true. Those things that I deeply admire in someone else that I that I cleave to that I want must be aspects of me to Yeah. Yeah I was just going to say I got a better story than that. Far. Take them. There's another one if I may. Yes two of us in the. World. And Dennis attacking to take three well, if I may share. I, witnessed. In a different way the same thing as a prayer chaplain. invariably, the person that would ask me to pray with them after service. Because we were available you know. And Invariably. With they asked me to pray for him. Was the very thing that I needed to pray for for myself. Wow Over and over again. Absolutely. Are we not connected I mean it's gotta be. I've got a I've got a quote for you that you'll love. It was from Jonathan. Livingston Seagull back in the seventy seven days Richard. Richard Bach Yeah. You teach best what you most need to learn. How and Isn't that the truth It is it is. It is the UC skip do you see something from your vantage point of where you have been on this arc? And here we are in search of the new Compassionate Mail on the role of compassion for this new archetype it happened. Do you get a sense that we're going through something as men we're going through a time? As as as both as a species and as a long the gender spectrum both. The. Divine. Masculine divine feminine in men and women. And all and all on the gender spectrum. But you see feel like something's happening there. Is there a sense to you that that we're that that this is the Luminol as Klay? His Has Framed at a for me in the LUMINOL space that that transitional space. It's it's interesting. You say that because it has a what I have seen over the years I got involved in this like say in the late eighties. Heavily involved in the Early Ninety S. and that's when. I think Nineteen Ninety s when Robert Lie published. Iron. John. And and so. He kind of launched the missile poetic. Men's movement. Looking at myths and legends and stories, and translating the meaning to what does that mean for me today. And back then. There were a lot of. A lot of men's groups that were. Going into the woods being. Primal. Looking at the Primal Matt. and. Then started looking at okay. What does Iron John Being for me. You know. What I saw. Right after that and I actually heard Robert Bly talk about this at a at a a conference one time it was his observation and I thought my weekends as well. A shift from. The. Primal. To. Dealing with grief. And they're saying, yes. It, it was. Okay. There's grief. What's the object of? The trigger of it. Why are men showing up with this this pain in their chest that they can't say they can't identify. And and so. The task then became make safe container. And let's start exploring. Okay. Someone said we're dealing with the father wound. What is that? All Right Maybe. Dad was. Maybe he was abusive maybe he was. Just silent. Maybe he was just on the fringe of the family group. And and you didn't spend much time with him. So. Laughed up to your own actually Sam in a book called finding our fathers I found founded after my first weekend. said. You're left up to your if dad was absent door or whatever. You left up to your own imaginings. About what it means to be a man. I took that a step further in my own in my own journey. My Dad was part of our family he was involved. He was there. But I never knew. I never knew. What he thought about me. I never knew his opinion. Of Me. And It's real interesting when when I, began my personal growth work. This is Back in the eighties when I did my initial understanding yourself and others courson did my deep dive. I found my dad. At the bottom of that that murkiness was my relationship with my father. and. What what showed up for me was. I didn't I didn't know what he thought of me. and. It's interesting after that weekend I, sent him a letter. I. We lived in Colorado he lived in my mom lives in Ohio. And I sent a letter to his office. Took me about four weeks to write it. had to write a rewrite and rewrite at to get it right. So I sent it to his office and. He. He called me the day. He received it. Now. He's an electrical engineer senior electrical engineer for Bob L.. In Ohio. And so we have people in and out of his office the whole time we were talking and he would say, what did you mean when you said and I said, well, Dad, you know I, I didn't feel. You were there. I didn't feel you know and. And I could tell this conversation I did not want to have on the phone. And I could tell that because even though people were walking in and out of his office. He was in tears. Because he was having this conversation with me. And what I got. Was this conversation with something that he feared? His whole life with me. Because he thought it would be bad. because. You know I pulled back from him when I was a teenager. Did my normal teenage stuff. And he didn't know what I thought of him. You know. And so. He. We hung up after about. I guess about an hour. and. Evidently. He called my mom and said Hey. We're going to Colorado and they showed up on my doorstep twenty four hours later. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. It just. We spent the next day. I had to build shelves for my wife. so He's a handyman so Cut Not a piece of wood. He'd stop and say, well, what did you mean when you said you know and the the afternoon went like that We took a break to to go get food for the kids. and. So he and I jumped in the drove new McDonald's did the drive up and we're on our way home. Now I don't recommend this anyone. while. We're on the drive home we're talking back and forth a little bit about the letter a little bit about he and I. and. I looked at him. And I said Dad. How come you never said? You love me. At new personality. Here's said. I didn't know how. My Dad never told me. So I got. A sense. I mean it was it was. Life altering for he and I our relationship was different after that. We could share. We share our sadness. We could share our joy. We we could have actually have a conversation. That was something other than. Are the kids doing. Is Hard connection. Yeah Oh. Absolutely. Oh my God this this clay everything that you've taught me inexperienced and that I've experienced in the group I mean this building. Of Trust and being willing to go on a journey that we do not know what the destination will be. There isn't A. Transactional opportunity this ranch foreman transformational. Opportunity you know what I? What I'm coming up for me as you're talking. The relationship between father and son that's that never gets there. and. We have to go out and find her own manhood. But Dad narrow embraced what Carl Young calls the Anima. The Divine Feminine Energy Within Him because his father did not do that. So he has this void inside of him. Doesn't know how to address it. So he doesn't know how to say Skip I love you. and. So you take that. And you bounce off of him and you go find out what it is to be a man. And you never get that resolved in you so it's generational. So. Finding the father is part of it. But. What you've talked about was you broke through that and you both connected. On the heart level. I want to ask you both. This question because for those of US whose fathers are dead or did not get a chance to have that opportunity. I am finding that because of the the quality of the relationships that I'm having with men today that I am healing that father wounded, it doesn't have to specifically be with my father, but there is something in that. Could you Kajol talk about that? No I've got some thoughts on it go ahead skip Oh. Yeah. Dentist, IT'S A. He absolutely does not have to be sitting in front of you. To have that conversation. The have that that heart connection. Even, if he's long past. That heart connection is available. I sat with a man one time and he was asking me about all of this stuff. and. This this was a man who I've known for many years and was. A therapist himself and done deep work with with men and women. And he was asking me about this finding the father what it was all about why do it and all that kind of stuff So I said Let me ask you do you have a photograph of your father with you? And he said, you know I do have one that I carry all the time his father had passed. I said pull it out. And he did as a little little tiny wallet size you know little tiny picture. I said okay. You see him. He said Yeah. I said tell him how your life is turned out. Percents tears. Because it's all the stuff he wanted to be able to tell it's not that it's life was bad or some traumatic thing happened. It was just as outpouring of all of the stuff you never got the state Retrain not to say that. Oh absolutely. Absolutely. I was going to take a slightly different tack and I'm so glad that you'd that because that was a real deep dive. What occurred to me was. that. I he'll. A little bit with every relationship that I have with another man that I began to trust yes. Yes. You know and I so I can't put my finger on. Okay. This was a day that I forgave my father. For. Something that he had. No, he wasn't guilty of just as nature you know. There there wasn't this big religious event. But what I'm what's coming up from is over this past eight and a half years every Monday night a. Little, bit. Dennis a little from you a little bit. You skip from each one of the guys in it's it's imperceptible. It's unconscious level. I love that because because we all have the you know we will I remember going into church and I would be so envious of all these. People who were just swooning and going over and just completely enraptured by the Stern. I'm going what is wrong with me that I don't feel I'm an `incrementalist. I don't have that I don't have the I have to gradually like a glacier move little by little and by knowing that what you were saying clay that's what I've been learning and then it's amazing over the period of month I. I can go look at the difference in how I am not only trusting men but I'm trusting myself. In a way that I have never been able to do before. Yeah, do I get that I want to do something here? A. Dear, friend of mine. Gave me this book. Wingspan. SPAN. Thank you skip and I had it on my shelf and I pulled it down every once in a while and surreal interesting contrast published in an early nineties nineteen ninety two. And today that you know I got prepared for skip. The book down. WHAT IS WINGSPAN Here's the first phrase. Mitha Poetic Men's activity is here to stay as a deep historical shift. In. World Culture. Well. That's what we're doing. That's not what our that's our Monday evening. Is it It absolutely is your Monday evening. Tell me about it. We we've had convert a little conversation about this over the over the years that we've known each other. and. The thing. I want you to know about Monday night and why it pulls me just holes me every time. The work that I. Come from is. Real heavy process work. And, and there's value in that. Even, my men's work was kind of process oriented. But on our Monday nights. There isn't someone saying well, what about this? Or Hey. I heard your voice. You know what were you feeling? It's not about that. It's about me. Listening to Dennis share. Being moved by what he says. And then being able to speak from my heart about that not telling them what I think it means. But. What I felt when he spoke. You know what? which you just described whereas the father son relationship. You just that's what you wanted with your father and Dennis. That's what you wanted and y'all just played that out right there. A flame we play that out for one another I've never put that in in that as brilliant. Brilliant. Brilliant. It's So many mad and I think you know I mentioned. Robert bly talking about the next movement would be integral. Dealing with grief. And I think. Working with the heart. Being able to express. It's it's nice to read books and be able to quote Carl Young and And I can do that. We could do that. We'll have fun. But It doesn't mean anything when I used to teach my workshops I used to tell the group look guys. Anyone who was a mixed group of men and women? Knowledge, Here's the booby prize. Here is heart. You know and being able to give language to. That which is inside. I guess you can't talk very long about men's work without. Keep coming back to Robert Bly but it. told the story one time about the men's motive feeling versus a women's motive feeling. and. He says now this is a gross. But kind of how it works for me. He says. He says women have this. Of what? Mothers talk to their daughters about in the kitchen. And the grandmothers talked to their mothers and their great grandmother Cindy great great great great great grandmothers. They have this mountain. Of Experience to draw from. He says, I come to this relationship with my wife. And I've got this little basket. Friday attached to the side of this mountain and the baskets got holes in it and I'm hanging on for dear life. And isn't that kind of the way it is I, mean. I I had a couple of that I was working with in in my practice a while back and I looked at him. And I said now because he was having trouble expressing. What he felt. And it told me what he fought, but he couldn't he couldn't connect the two and I said now. You had that talk with your dad right. You know the one where he sat you down on his knee. And he told you that when you feel sad, these are the ways you can express that. And it's okay and when you feel mad, these are the appropriate ways you can feel that and and and when you feel grief, you know you can you can feel it and he just he. Said stops. None of us had that. Not. Over that talk. And and so the thing that that touched me about bligh's. Analogy about the basket on the side of the mountain. Is it? It seems like I don't know if it's true or not. But it seems like women can describe what they feel a little more readily than that. Yes and whether whether it's it's the way that we are wired there I'm sure that there is both the nurturing the nature part of it but I what I do believe is that it can be grown in us. And so I to see how it is. That could have that arc of okay. Here's how I'm going to grow in my compassion and Klay nine when we're. Joined this movement the Klay started in search of the new Compassionate Mail. I'm searching for it within myself I'm searching for within each person. That I that I mean because if I can see it reflected and see so. So, can you talk a little about the role of compassion and what that means to you and what that is because this is where we're going and we need to hear it from you skip I'll you bet Klay the the the? New Compassionate male archetype is so Perfect for right now. Because it, it would seem if you watch the news and and and that you're only view of the outside world. We are a compassionate society. We are a society that. Doesn't really care one for the other. Were divided, camps, and we're at war. Well Compassion. is taking is being able to clearly and this this thing that I've been working on for personally for the last few years. Being able to see the other and allow other to see me. If I'm being compassionate. I can see you. And I allow you in, allow you to see me. If I'M NOT BEING COMPASSIONATE I'M GONNA. Keep my cards close to the vest. You know I'm not gonNA reach out much. But if I'm willing if I'm willing to be compassionate to at least take that risk initially. To experience that I can then see you. I can see the humor is the man that you are. and. At that point. At that point when an I I'm acting out of my compassion mail. It doesn't matter if I'm liberal or Conservative. If I'm, black or white. It really doesn't matter because what I see is the human performance. And all else who come from there absolutely because every every act we make will be different from that point if I see you if I otherwise you. I'm going to act differently than if I see you. Yes. Yes. If you're willing to see who I am. The truth of me. It's it's hard to judge me. it's impossible because you just see me. And out of that. Your compassion will stem. or it's out of compassion I'll be able to see. I don't know which comes first there. You know what? What's coming up some of these things are coming up from this conversation I'm really really appreciated skin. Amen the. And I haven't talked about this. I've talked about compassion over here. And, I have a big talk about vulnerability over here. Wow But the intertwine. Of Compassion. which you were just talking about to allow you to see me. You know that that is opening. That's like Brennan says you know standing my truth with an open heart? That's wholehearted. and. When two people can come together standing in the truth with an open heart, they see each other. And that is that's that's the. End of vulnerability that's that end of the spectrum of vulnerability, the other end is closed. Are I club broken heart, it's when you can't you my cards to my vest. And so. Don't ability and compassionate. So intertwined and I've just never made that. We guys we compartmentalize. Don't we? My. Gosh Label on everything. It is. Amazing. Our. Something you just said. Spoke to me and that is you describe it the the. The closed off man as the broken heart. Yes and that makes so much sense because when you think about a broken heart. Paying. There's just pain and what you WanNa do is push that down. You know. and. There's A. Oh I don't know whether saying started but I like it. Hurt people. Hurt. People. Right. So if you feeling that pain that broken heart in some way, however that heartless broken, you're GonNa want to away you'll express it usually is to lash out As I, have. As. Is My story over and over Hanover. Skip, is there anything that were first of all? I want to echo clay said and what a gracious. Opportunity to be able to have you to be part of this conversation to to to be around you every time I'm around you. There is a I feel like I have a piece cup that just flows because I feel I feel more peace. Foale. When I'm around you, I learned more I grow more because I am seeing that is what you do. You do this by modeling that in you and that allows me to be able to do, and that's what I feel is on this in search of in this journey that we're having this is what I get from you, Klay. Every single day and I'm seeing you work on, it gives me this is where this in search of new compassionate mail is such a pro how powerful transformative place for me is there anything that you want to leave us with or anything that's on your mind or heart skip for this today one of I hope to have another conversation with you. I think. The thing for me is. You know I mentioned not watching the news and all the craziness that's going on politically right now on both sides of the aisle. No shortage of craziness out there. I have taken it on a couple of times when I felt brave. To try and get. My friends on Facebook, for example, who are far right and far left. Engaged in a conversation. That is something other than name calling. And it actually It's been horribly unsuccessful. For the most part. What? There was one and I think there were I'd to go back and look there were hundred ninety interactions on this one thread, right? And and it started out as a post about Martin Luther King. You know was I was motivated by our Wednesday night Meetings. And never for the life of me thought that it would spun this thing and people arguing and saying you know name calling and I'd have to get on there and I stayed out of it actually other than to say play Nice. Plane, is. Taking the long way to say. Being, able to seize the other. Being able to feel the other. Is Our task at this point. The New Compassionate Mail. Once, that S- realized. That will be kind of the normal way to be. You know it's If I can operate if I can move through my life with compassion. All of that other just kind of falls in in line or falls away. I moved periodically ask. Where's the compassion? That string of one hundred and ninety in I I've had something like that not to that extent. But I finally said where's the compassion and all this? And crickets. Silence. But. Not here. and. Not. Day. Not With these two beautiful men that I got a chance to spend. This time with. Thank you skip. Clay and Dennis. It's been my great pleasure. I hope we can do this again sometime. Thank you and thank you clay and thank you everybody for listening. And watching. In, search of the new. Compassionate male. See you next time.

Dennis Klay Boykin Dad Robert Bly clay Carl Young A. Immense group David Gershon Richard Bach Morley producer US Global Relationship Centers Facebook Martin Luther King founder Kajol Colorado Ohio Hanover
Strategies for Women's Rights - Brooke Kroeger, Professor, Author, 'The Suffragents"

Green Connections Radio - Insights on Innovation, Sustainability, Clean Energy, Leadership, Entrepreneurship, and Careers w Top Leaders, Women

55:08 min | 8 months ago

Strategies for Women's Rights - Brooke Kroeger, Professor, Author, 'The Suffragents"

"In Happy Women's history month this is very important women's history month because it's also the one hundred year anniversary of women having the right to vote. That is passage of the nineteenth amendment to the US Constitution. In case you didn't know women did not get the right to vote. When mended at the country's founding women had to fight for decades for the right to vote and today both writing voting rights and women's rights are under siege again from forces that are trying to control how loud their voices are. You may have heard me mentioned before that. My great great aunt Miriam Michelson was a prominent reporter of the late eighteen. Hundreds and early nineteen hundreds one of the rare quote girl reporters and she personally kept the suffrage cause in the headlines with her relentless coverage of it her work helped get the nineteen minutes past formed and motivated women about their white vote. Today we're going to hear from a prominent woman writer of today is with writing about women. Suffrage Women's quarters women in the media for many years and journalism professor at nyu. Welcome to green connections radio where we bring you. Insight said tips from remarkably innovative women about corporate responsibility issues. Energy and sustainability. I'm John Michaelson. We talk about innovation. Leadership Technologies End Careers always bringing new perspective. Find US anywhere. You like to listen to podcasts. On connections radio DOT COM which is our website and through my Forbes blog as well and please pass it onto your friends by the way if you're struggling with your own career let us know via twitter or linked in or our contact. Us page on our website. And we'll help you with contacts resources strategies ideas and tips to help you out no matter what industry you're in you may see women anchors. On television news or see women reporters in other news outlets and print CETERA. See their names. But the fact of the matter is that women reporters are still unfortunately a rarity especially in covering politics and business. The Women's Media Center reports that in two thousand nineteen men received sixty three percent of bylines and other credits in print internet. Tv in Wire News and women received only thirty seven percent. Let me say that a another way women. Reporters only got credit for about one third of the stories that mended representation of news management roles is worse and representation of women reporters and editors of color is even worse when it comes to reporting on politics in print sixty six percent of bylines are male and thirty four percents are female women still lead in the unfortunately pigeonholed categories of lifestyle leisure and health at fifty two percent and fifty eight percent during the suffrage movement. It was of course much much worse. Women had few voices and platforms. Our guest today has addressed. In-depth her groundbreaking special issue of American Journalism magazine. Women had to use the media in creative ways to achieve their voting rights. Goal end like today. Women needed and leverage the support of men who believed women should have equal rights to men including the right to vote. I'd like you to meet broker. Kroger the author of several award winning books including the suffragettes. How many how? Many women used men to get the vote and a biography of legendary female investigative reporter. Nellie bly called Nellie bly daredevil reporter and feminist who in fact was one of my inspirations to become a reporter Brooke knows from the life of a reporter firsthand herself having been a reporter and editor including at Newsday and at Upi United Press International. Today Brooke is a professor of journalism at Nyu Journalism Institute. She previously led. I can go on but you get the picture. I'm delighted to say that. Brook joins US live today in New York City from her amazing place. Welcome to Green Connections Radio Brooke and thank you for joining us. Thank you my pleasure. So I'm going to jump right in. How did the suffrage movement leverage the media to get the nineteenth amendment passed well? My work focuses on that last decade. What I call the last lap of the movement from about one thousand nine hundred seventy eight to nine thousand nine hundred and twenty and what happened in that period after a long stretch which was known as the doldrums. The movement stagnated for many many years after its ostensible founding in eighteen forties. At that time there was a huge change so I talk about it. As going from Dowdy Dazzling and the way the movement did that was by bringing in elites both society and social women and men of position power and influence and many of them were. Publishers Editors Poets Writers and had direct access to the levers of media and of course the media was mostly newspapers and magazines. There really wasn't even radio tilt the nineteen twenty s so and and if you think about it with no television no radio. Magazines and newspapers played an enormous part in the entertainment and leisure life of everyone. So it was. It was real influence in a way that we almost don't quite feel today. So how did women leveraged those levers? Did they like migrate. Great aunt seek to get published in them. Did they try to convince them to do stories? How what was that actual interplay? Well I give the men probably more credit than anybody else will serve ever. Will I remember trying to get this book? Published getting a lot of response like who cares what the men did a lot of that. But in fact the reason their participation in that last decade was so important was because they had the means to help financially either through their wives or themselves or they controlled the media or they were the people who wrote for the media and were able to garner attention or assign women to work on those stories. Women were just doing it. They were being assigned. They were being assigned by people who were editors. The editors of the mainstream publications were men. The congress was male. The voters for the most part except in the west were men so having access to men was an extremely important part of making a decision about what was going to happen. You wouldn't get anywhere without you would not get anywhere. That was the question I actually asked myself was like. How could they have done this without the man? There just simply wasn't away so Oswald Garrison Villard who was the editor and publisher of the New York Evening Post and the Nation magazine. A legacy from his father proposed the idea to Anna. Howard Shaw who was the head of the National American Women's suffrage association and he said this building on an idea that had already taken root in Europe both in Holland and in England. And he said we should do that here. You know men should form an organization and she wrote back and said we've thought about this before but it's always the wrong men who wants to be engaged with us there the men full of `Isms and we have enough women full of `ISMs. We don't need to deal with that. He came back and he said I really think I could put together an influential list. And of course his initial idea was that they would troop up to Albany or to Washington and talk to their powerful legislative friends or they would sign a letter. You know something like that so she thought about it again and then she came back. I tell the story often and she said okay. We decided we'll do it and we'll do. All the back. End Work Typical response and to his enormous credit. He said no. He said it's only going to be effective if we form our own organization and they did wow boy. There's so much to unpack in there. So the Anti suffrage suffrage EST AKA the antes also use the media to try to keep the amendment from being passed and they obviously had success for many years right so talk a little bit about what they did to did they. Did they do the same thing that the suffragettes and the suffering? Johnston. They didn't really have to. Because they represented the status quo. They represented the prevailing viewpoints from the Victorian area era and before where it was expected that women would see home and hearth as I and care for children and so- promoting those ideas were the ideas that many many if not most people was the normal coverage. Well one of the things that I learned from doing the book on my great aunt with Lori Harrison con is that one of the arguments that the antes made was that women didn't need the right to vote because they got it through their husbands assumes that the women are married we started on that one but that plays into the power that men have of course Of course there were also the women who were single and the women who were divorced and the women who are widowed. Where were they? I found a picture yesterday. Leslie's magazine from Nineteen Thirteen a parade in Baltimore where the women were marching in black veils so that their husbands couldn't identify them. Oh Wow that's a trip for. Why do you think it took so many decades to get the amendment passed if there was that much pressure and there were that many alliances. Well as I before. There's this fifty year period where the movement is not moving. It was moving so there. Was that the ideas had not taken hold except in the West the West was far more effective getting it through but the West was not populace and so and not as entrenched in social norms as the east was so there was a lot more flexibility also. They had adopted. Carrie Chapman Catt strategy of going after the elites so they had other ways of making things happen and we're more open to women doing things they also used arguments that were not that didn't fly in the face of what people generally believed so they had arguments that kind of went both ways argument that you could. That was hard to argue with so Mary. Michelson used fiction to get some points across including to address sexual harassment and discrimination. She knew her male. Publishers would be lows to publish How did other agree with that? Okay good I want you disagree with that Okay so disagree with well. I'm just thinking back. To Nelly I mean the impetus for the for her. Mad House incarceration. Were exactly these kinds of reports that were in the news. That when you say her. Madhouse incarceration you mean. When she got herself committed exactly when she feigned insanity to go into blackwell's islands lunatic asylum for women that do investigative report correct that grew out of reports in the press just the previous month that there were abuses being committed against patients. So I mean so. I don't think it's it was entirely well but that's abuses against patients. That's not that's different than sexual harassment kinds of issues that are in in normal life. Are you could sort of put people who are in those institutions in a category and you can talk about this a little bit more but how did other women journalists of the era. Us fiction to get their messages across to gain support. I mean we still do that today. And then we have the handmaid's tale. We have big little lies right which address domestic abuse for example. But how did they some of your work from what I understand? Is this issue of using media in different ways. So how did the how did other women journalists of that era US fiction and I'm trying to think who else was a fiction writer in the in the decades that come after there are some who moved to fiction writing Martha Bell Horn wrote fiction? But they're they're quite a bit later in off hand I can't think of who was a fiction writer also okay and I think in Miriam's case she moved out of journalism into another form correct. Well she she did them both together for awhile and We can ask me about it later. But she did both of them together for a while and then moved more into fiction than activism after awhile activism thing interests me if you're looking at African American women journalists of this period. They really didn't have a choice except to be in. The activists pressed there was they had to be in the black press because they didn't even have access to mainstream media for the most part suffrage women sort of moved back and forth a little bit. There were quite a few women who covered the suffrage movement. There's there's some feeling that as soon as it became a front page story the men then took over the story for the parade and stuff they were riding those big main headers because they were suddenly news right EXAC well. There was a lot of friction obviously between the white women and Black Women during the suffrage movement because the from what I understand. Black Women wanted abolition to be part of the suffrage platform and to be included in the white women felt that they would not get the amendment if they did that because they were appealing to basically white men who were lawmakers voting about the south it was about the lawmakers in the south so I mean it was about many things but among the many things it was about it was about getting southern support which they were not going to get because it would have doubled the black vote on that goes back to the constitution to where they didn't put it in because they felt they wouldn't get support from the black lawmakers in the south right tell us about developing the suffrage and the media platform and the Special Issue of American Journalism Journal. Oh I love to talk about that so when I was doing the book I made a lot of friends with suffrage. Historians women's historians of various kinds mostly journalism historians. Because that's sort of my world and I put together this group of ten fantastic women from all over the country. We met in March of two thousand seventeen. American journalism is a journal an Academic Journal. That comes out four times a year. I'm serve on the editorial board is a number of people do and I went to the editor and said don't you think should do a special suffrage issue because this is these. Anniversaries are coming up. He said yes. We even have the funding for it. And it's going to take you two years and I'm a wire service reporter to me like you've gotta be kidding. It took the whole two years. It takes to an academic journal and the group was fantastic and this is just like the greatest group. Anything you ask. Everybody responded immediately. So we put out a what's called a call for papers and we got like twenty five or thirty possibilities. We knew we were waiting. Pick five we did that. We went through the whole editing process. There was a lot of re editing and then the journal came out at the same time I felt. It was important to find ways to take academic work and make it more popular especially because the subject was going to be important so being a media person I said. Let's create a database of not only the academic articles but the exhibitions and everything and the videos anything anybody's doing about suffrage so we got funding from the New York humanities and and my department created the site. It's really beautiful. It's called suffrage and the Media Dot Org and it has the best search engine you've ever seen. I mean it's fantastic. So everything is organized by academic popular essay. Tv program video. Whatever you can put in all those notes and find what you like. And it's quite easy to run but we keep loading it and we said we'd load it through two thousand twenty and we do that. Is it multimedia it has everything on it? I mean it's got it'll radio it'll even have radio and podcast anything that we put up. How did you decide what to include? You said You got twenty five thirty papers and you chose five what what would. What were you looking for and how to decide what to put on. We were looking for an unexamined issues issues where we could bring a fresh idea. And then so. Those five papers came that that magazine the Journal came out and then we thought Oh we would take it to a book. Publisher and book publisher wanted us to do all new essays. So that book has just come out. And that's called front pages frontlines it's academic. I need to be really clear about that. And it includes twelve essays only three of which were in the original journal and so they're all brand new and they deal with many of the under examined subjects including African American women in the movement. We have like four pieces that deal with that subject. Who is the audience for the platform? And who is the audience for the Academic Journal? I guess is targeted academics. But who is the platform for and who is frontlines front page front pages. Frontlines is really. It's for scholars. I think or people who are interested in the subject in a deep a deep and noted footnoted in-depth. Something exactly the platform. Suffrage in the media is for everybody. So if you want you can find links to academic material if you WANNA do stuff. That's more fun or exhibitions. It's all on there so it's for everybody. It's for a teaching tool it's for just every possible use to make the subject broad and I gather you can search by name of people and everything perfect so before I ask you about the Your career advice. I WanNa ask you a little bit about the issue of men and we talked a little bit about this but there were male. Legislators had to give women the right to vote one st at a time and as I understand it was neck and neck in the last eight and Tennessee. You wrote a you wrote in the suffragettes. You talk about that and you talk about the the mail publishers etc but talk about the male lawmakers and how the women persuaded cajole begged whatever it was the male lawmakers to pass. There's so many ways to talk about. How did this finally come to pass? After seventy years I mean how did they finally bring it together and I think there was a confluence of forces that made this happen so some people would tell you that it was alice. Paul and her National Women's Party in their education and their silent sentinels and their protests and their hunger strikes and their jailings etc. Some would disagree with that. Some would say it was. Wilson's finally coming around finally. And why was Wilson able to come around because New York had voted bringing forty four seats into Congress? Suddenly there was critical mass in Congress where there was a way to counter the opposition from the south that was important but also very important was world war one that the sacrifices that women were making were so heartfelt and so important they were losing their sons. They were losing their husbands. They were doing war work at an extraordinary level that it was at this point very very hard to say you're a citizen who can't have the rights of citizenship did the protests in front of the White House against Nixon against Wilson when he was resisting this player. All as I said I think all of these things played a part but there was so much opposition within the movement itself about what Alice Paul and crew were doing and especially at the time. That New York was trying to pass suffrage in the state that the women of New York who were very very important to the movement the movement was headquartered in New York. Were very upset about what was happening in Washington and yet both of them were running lobbying forces in Congress. They were both working on for the same goal for the single. So coaches one quick career question for you and then we'll get to some advice. Tell us about your decision to become a journalist and then your decision to shift more into teaching and writing about yours. Oh well I was a journalist for really long time. Mostly abroad was correspondent in Brussels London Tel Aviv and then London again as chief editor for a failing company which is when women get opportunity. And and then I moved to the states and I went to work for Newsday and I did that for two years. It was not my favorite job and I wrote for magazines for a couple of years and then I got a book idea which was the Nellie by book. Thanks to my daughter whose idea was because she also was my childhood hero and and then I love doing that so I wrote one book and then I wrote another book and then I saw an ad in the paper for a position at nyu. And I thought I could do that so I sent them a letter and went through numerous processes but became a professor. And so I've done that for the last twenty two years and the great thing about being a professor is you can continue to be a journalist and you can continue to write books and you get the joy of teaching brilliant young students. Oh that's interesting so you basically just applied coal. You didn't know anybody then weight. Well it was an ad brute chair of the department and I just thought I could do that and of course back and said. We're not going to consider you for Jeremy. Because you've never taught they said but we have a visiting position that we'd like you to apply for and so I did that and then the rest of system. Oh I love that well. That's a great inspiration because everybody thinks you only can get in with connections and I love stories. I connection for anything I've done in my life which is not true of most women. Journalists they usually do have connections. Now you have a connection with me. At least so what would you suggest to a woman in mid career whatever that feels like who wants to use her education her experience and her passion for making a difference in her career? She wants to make money. She wants to get ahead at US embassies. But what would you say to her? So it's not not a kid fresh out of college but somebody who's maybe at least ten fifteen years of experience. Maybe more who really wants to use who she is and what she knows how to do to make a difference and make money. I guess I mean for me. Teaching at a university level has been that I don't. I don't think that was my goal. I think when I went to graduate school I thought I have enough energy to get through an Ma. And I'm just going to do that and and I thought someday I might WANNA teach. It's a terminal degree in journalism. So I thought okay I'll just have this and then I forgot all about that for twenty five years or longer and then when I saw that ad I thought Oh yeah I you know I always wanted to do that. And it seemed like the point where you be giving back so I guess it's just my experience and you find it when you see that ad or whatever the equivalent is that says. Oh yes that would fill all those goals. So that's a good point. Basically what you're saying if I'm hearing you right is y'all feel the next step when it shows up there's a resonance with what feels right as you explore different opportunities. Miami that right I think so. I guess I guess so. It's life has come to be that way in kind of in decades in ten years or twenty years spurts. It's come that way. Well I find that. So many people think they have to plan for their next. And it's like yeah but be present where you are do what you're doing now and then I did the last planning at twenty two and everything and everything is come through. Everything has happened just like I planned it. Oh that's great and that's a great line to to end on as well so thank you so much for joining us. Today and Green Connections Radio Brooke Journalist and author of many books on women suffrage in the media including the suffragettes. I love that title. So who is your favorite female reporter? Had you think female reporters are doing today? Tweet it to us at Joan. Michael Sooner posted on our facebook page. Find us on apple podcasts or anywhere else and leave us a review few would or on our website green connections radio DOT com. Wherever you like to listen to your favorite podcasts. Thank you for joining us. I'm John Michaelson. See you next time. Thank you is zoom recorder. Yes H for him. Just south six And yes we are recording. Recover its March there. You go wonderful much. Thank you might be a little bit louder coming forward. But that's Okay. Heck no climbing dishes on tables hoppy women's history. This is a very important women's history month because it's also the one hundred year anniversary of women having the right to vote that is passage of the nineteenth amendment to the constitution. In case. You didn't let me just a second. I'm going to back this up on my phone. I was like plan B. Happy Women's history month. This is a very important women's history month because it's also the one hundred year anniversary of women having the right to vote that is passage of the nineteenth amendment to the US Constitution in case. You didn't know women did not get the right to vote. When mended did at the country's founding women had to fight for decades for the right to vote and today both writing voting rights and women's rights are under siege again from forces that are trying to control how loud their voices are. You may have heard me mentioned before that. My great great aunt Miriam Michelson was a prominent reporter of the late eighteen. Hundreds and early nineteen hundreds one of the rare quote girl reporters and she personally kept the suffrage cause of the headlines with her relentless coverage of it for work helped get the nineteenth amendment passed because it informed and motivated women about their right to vote. Today we're going to hear from a prominent woman writer of today who has been writing about women's suffrage women reporters and women in the media for many years and journalism professor at nyu welcome to green connections radio where we bring you insights tips from remarkably innovative women about corporate responsibility issues. Energy and sustainability. I'm John Michaelson. We talk about innovation. Leadership Technologies end careers always bringing a new perspective. Find US anywhere. You like to listen to podcasts. On Green Connections Radio DOT COM which is our website and through my Forbes blog as well and please pass it onto your friends by the way if you're struggling with your own career. Let us know via twitter or Legion or our contact. Us page on our website. And we'll help you with contacts resources strategies ideas and tips to help you out no matter what industry you're in you may see women anchors. On television news or see women reporters in other news outlets trained CETERA. See their names. But the fact of the matter is that women reporters are still unfortunately a rarity especially in covering politics and business. The Women's Media Center reports that in two thousand nineteen men received sixty three per set of bylines and other credits in print internet. Tv in Wire News and women received only thirty seven percent. Let me say that a another way women. Reporters only got credit for about one third of the stories that mend it. Representation of news management roles is worse than that presentation of women reporters and editors of color is even works when it comes to reporting on politics in print sixty six percent of bylines are male and thirty four percent are female. Women still lead. In the unfortunately pigeonholed categories of lifestyle leisure and health at fifty two percent and fifty eight percent. During the suffrage movement was of course much much worse women had few voices and platforms. As our guest today has addressed. In-depth in her groundbreaking special issue of American Journalism magazine. Women had to use the media in creative ways to achieve their voting rights. Call and like today. Women needed and leverage the support of men who believed women should have equal rights to men including the right to vote. I'd like you to meet Brock. Kroger the author of several award winning books including the suffragettes. How many of us how. Women used men to get the vote and a biography of legendary female investigative reporter. Nellie bly called Nellie bly daredevil reporter in feminist who in fact was one of my inspirations to become a reporter Brooke knows from the life of a reporter firsthand herself having been a reporter and editor including at Newsday and at Upi United Press International. Today Brooke is a professor of journalism at Nyu Journalism Institute where she previously led. I can go on but you get the picture. I'm delighted to say that. Brook joins US live today in New York City from her amazing place. Welcome degree connections Radio Brooke and Thank you for joining us. Thank you so I'm going to jump right in. How did the suffrage movement leverage the media to get the nineteenth amendment passed welcome focuses on that last decade but I call the last lap of movement from Nineteen Zero Seven or eight to nine thousand nine hundred twenty and what happened in that period after a long which was known as the doldrums the movement stagnated for many many years? After it's a sensible founding in eighteen forties and that time there was a huge change. So I talk about it as going from Downing. Tha destler and the way. The movement did that was by bringing elites both society social women and men position power and influence and many of them were. Publishers Editors Poets Writers and had direct access to the levers of media and arts media was mostly newspapers magazines. There really wasn't even radio. Nineteen twenties so and and if you think about with no television no radio magazines. Newspapers played an enormous part in the entertainment and leisure life of everyone. So it was. It was real influence in the way that we have today. So how did women leverage those levers? Did they migrate? Great aunt seek to get published in them. Did they try to convince them to do stories? Had what was that actually interplay. Well probably were created than anybody else will ever will I remember trying to get this published getting a lot of response like who cares what the men do a lot of that. Why but in fact you know. The recent their participation at last take some important was because they had means to help financially you through their wives themselves or a controlled the media or they weren't the people who wrote for the media in were able to garner attention or assignment women to work on the stories. Women were just doing it. They were being assigned. They will be assigned of people who were editors. The editors of mainstream publications were men. The congress was male. The voters for the most part except in the west were men so having accessed men was an extremely Gordon. Artem making a decision about what's happened. You wouldn't get anywhere with apple get anywhere. That was the question I actually asked myself. It's like how can they done this about the man who just simply wasn't away so also simple bar was the editor publisher of the New York Evening Post and the Nation magazine. A legacy from his father proposed the idea to Anna. Howard Shaw ahead of the National Woman Suffrage Association and he said this building on an idea that had already taken in Europe of Holland in England. He said we should do that here. You know mentioned for the organization and she wrote back and said we thought of this before and it's always wrong men who to be engaged with us there the men full of `Isms and we have enough women need to deal with that. He came back and he said I really think I put together. Her influential list and versus initial idea was that they would trip up to Albany or Washington and talk to their powerful legislative friends or they would sign a letter something like that so she talked about it again and then she came back. Tell the story often and she said okay. We decided we'll do it and we'll do all the back work. Typical response and to his mortgage credit. He said No. He said it's only be effective if we former organization and they did. Wow boy there's so much to unpack in there so the anti suffrage Suffragettes AKA. The antes also used the media to try to keep the amendment from being passed and they obviously success for many years right so talk a little bit about what they did to did. They did they do the same thing. That the suffragettes and the suffering Johnston. They didn't really have to. Because they represented the status quo. They represented the prevailing viewpoints from the Victorian area at era amd before where it was expected that women would see home and hearth as I care for children so promoting those ideas for behind us that many many people saw the normal coverage. Well one of the things that I learned from doing the book on my great aunt with Lori Harrison con is that one of the arguments that the antics made was that women didn't need the right to vote because they got it to their husbands assumes that all the women to marry we started on that one but that plays into the power that men half of course there were also women all divorced widowed in over a right. I found a picture yesterday. Leslie's magazine from Nineteen Thirteen of a parade in Baltimore where women are marching black veils so that their husbands could buy. Oh Wow that's interesting picture. Why do you think it took so many decades to get the amendment passed if there was that much pressure and there were that many aligns as well as I said before there's fifty year period or movement is not moving? It was not moving so there was that the ideas had not taken hold except in the west of the Westerns are more effective getting it through but the West populace and so an not as entrenched in social norms as the Eastwood so there was a lot more flexibility also. They adopted Carrie Chapman. Catt strategy of going after the leads so they had other ways of making things happen. And we're more open to women doing things. They also used arguments that were not the to fly in the face of what people generally believed so they had arguments kind of went. Both ways argument that you could argue with give us an example Trying to think like the the I'm GonNa get this all wrong. Refrain but the justice argument was have the right. You have to give it to. That's her thing than women. Can I have to look at it? Okay so Miriam. Michelson used fiction to get some of her points across including to address sexual harassment and discrimination. Itchy knew her male publishers would be low to publish. How did other? Okay good I want you disagree with that Disagree WITH FUN. Just thinking back to me. I mean big impetus for the for her mad incarceration. Were exactly these kinds of reports that were in the news when you say her. Mad has incarceration you mean when. She got herself Exactly when she feigned insanity to go into black holes islands lunatic asylum for women to do investigative reporting correct that grew out of reports in the press just the previous month that there were abuses being committed against patients so so. I don't think it was entirely well. That's abuses against patients. That's not that's different than sexual harassment kinds of issues that are in in normal life for you could sort of put people who are in those institutions in the category. You can talk about this a little bit more but how did other women journalists of the era? Us fiction to get their messages across into gain support. I mean we still do that today. We have the handmaid's tale. We have big little lies right which addressed domestic abuse for example. But how did they some of your work from what I understand? Is this issue using media in different ways? So how did the how did other women journalists of that era US fiction and loose media trying to think who else was a fiction writer and the decades that come after there are some fiction writing Martha Gilroy fiction. Quite the leader. You know off hand. I can't think of who was a fiction and okay and I think in in Miriam's case she moved out of journalism into other form correct. Well she she did them both together for a while and and we can ask about it later but she did both of them together for a while then moved more into fiction than activism after a while so activism interests me. You know you're looking. At African American woman journalist this period. They really didn't have a choice except to be the activists press there was. They had to be in the black press because they didn't even have access to mainstream media for the most part suffrage women sort of moved back and forth a little bit There were quite a few women who covered the suffrage movement. There's nearest you know some feeling as soon as it became a front page story amendment over the story from parades and so they were writing. Those big main hinders because they were suddenly news except well. There was a lot of friction. Obviously between the white women and Black Women during the suffrage movement because the from what I understand black women wanted abolition. Two part of the suffrage platform to be included in the white women felt that they would not get the amendment passed if they did that because they were appealing to basically white men were lawmakers voting about the south in the south so many things but among the many things that was about it was about getting or which they were on. That goes back to the constitution to where they didn't put it in. They wouldn't get support from the black lawmakers himself right. Tell us about developing the suffrage and the media platform that you developed in the special issue. American Journalism Magazine magazine. It's academic journal. Okay okay okay. Saw these really well okay. I'll just I'll rephrase it. So tell us about developing. Take you for my editor. Tell us about developing tell us about developing the suffrage in the media platform in the Special Issue of American Journalism Journal to talk about that so when I was doing the book I made a lot of friends who suffered historians historian Kyrie's cummings mostly journalism historians. Because that's my world and I put together a group of ten fantastic women from all over the country. We met in March two thousand seventeen. American journalism is a journal an Academic Journal. That comes out four times a year. I'm on the editorial board is people do and I went to the editor and said don't you think we should do a special suffrage issue because these anniversary coming up he said yes even have funding for it. And it's going to take you two years and I'm a wire service reporter. Abby advocating into a whole two years it takes an academic journal and the group was fantastic. And this is just like the greatest group anything you ask. Everybody responded immediately. So we put out of what's called a call for papers and you got like twenty five or thirty possibilities. We went paid five. We did that we went through. The whole process was a lot of reanimated and the journal came out at the same time I felt. It was important to find ways to take academic work and make it more popular especially because the subject was going to be important so being a media person I said. Let's create a database of academic articles. Popey exhibitions everything videos. Anything anybody WHO's doing about suffrage. So we got funding from Newark humanities art and And my department created the site. It's really beautiful Media Dot Org and it has the best search engine. You've ever seen in spend tastic so everything's organized by academic popular essay. Tb PROGRAM VIDEO. Whatever you can put it all those notes on which and it's quite easy to run but we keep loading said floated through twenty twenty and that is it multimedia. Yuck it has anything on it. I mean it'll even have radio and podcast. How did you decide what to include? You said You got twenty five thirty papers in. You chose five. What what would what were you looking for? And how to decide what to looking or unexamined issues issues where we could bring a fresh idea. Then so those five papers came that magazine. The Journal came out and then we thought Oh we would take it to a publisher and book publisher wanted us to do all new essays. So that book has just come out. That's called front pages frontlines. It's academic. I need to be really clear about that and It includes twelve essays only three which original journal and so they're all brand new and deal with many of the under examined subjects including African American women in the movement. We have like four pieces that deal with that subject. Who is the audience for the platform? Who is the audience for the Academic Journal? I guess is targeted at Horse. But who is the platform for who was frontlines front page for a Patriots Fan? Lines is really? It's for scholars. I kind of core people read interesting subject. In deep in deep and noted footnoted indepth southlake has actually the platform. Suffrage in the media is for everybody. So if you want you can find links to academic material if you wanted to sell its more fodder exhibitions on there. So it's for everybody. It's for a teaching tool. It's every possible use to make the subject and I gathered. You can search by name of people and things like that. That's great perfect so Before ask you about the a your career advice I wanna ask you a little bit about the issue of men and we talked a little bit about this but There were male legislators who had to give women the right to vote one st at a time and as I understand it was neck and neck in the last eight in Tennessee. You wrote a you wrote you know in the suffrage sense you talk about that did did was. How did they focus on focused on? We talk about the male publishers etc. But talk about the male lawmakers how the women persuaded cajole begged whatever it was the male lawmakers to pass either so many ways to talk about how to finally come to pass after seventy years. I mean how we finally rented together and I think there was a confluence of forces. That made this happen. So some people tell you that it was Alice Paul and her National Woman's Party in their education and their silent sentinels their protests and their hunger strikes in their jailings etc. Some disagreement that someone say it was Wilson's finally coming round. Finally and why Wilson able to come around because New York had voted for need forty four seats in Congress. Suddenly there was critical mass in Congress where there was a way to counter the opposition from the south that was important but also very important was world war one that and the sacrifices that women making were so heartfelt and saw important losing their psalms losing her husband's they were doing war work at an extraordinary level that it was at this point. Very hard to say you're a citizen can't have the rights of citizens did the protests in front of the White House against Nixon Against Wilson. Where he was resisting. This play role as I said. I think all of these things played a part but there was so much. Opposition within the movement itself about what else pollen crew were doing and especially at the time that was trying to pass suffrage in the state that the women of New York who were very into the movement was headquartered. New York or very upset about what was happening washed at both of them were running lobbying forces in Congress and both working for the same bowl percent so one quick career question for you and then we'll get to some advice. Tell us about your decision to become a journalist and then your decision to shift more into teaching and writing metropoles well. I was journalist really long time Muslim. Broad correspondent in Brussels loved it until hope that London again as chief editor for a feeling company which is when we would get opportunity and moved to the states and return for Newsday. And I did that for two. Years was not my favorite job and I wrote for magazines for a couple of years and then I got a book idea which was the book. Thanks to my daughter whose idea was because she also was my childhood he wrote and and then I love doing that so I wrote one buck and then I wrote another book and then I saw an ad in the paper for a position at nyu. And I thought I can do that so I sent them a letter and through neural processes but Kim professor and so I've done that for twenty two years and the great thing about being a professor is you can continue to be a journalist and you can continue to write books and enjoy of teaching early young students. Oh that's interesting so you basically just applied cold. You didn't know anybody inside the department and just thought I can do that and we're not going to consider you for Jerry. You'd never taught a visiting position that liking you apply for and so and all I love that. That's great inspiration because everybody thinks you only can get in with connections and I love stories. I've never had a conviction for getting it done in my life which is not true. Most women journalists we dressed. Well now you have a connection of me. So what would you suggest were woman in mid career? Whatever that feels like who wants to use her education her experience and her passion for making a difference in her career. She wants to make money. Wants to get ahead of cheese in business. But what would you say to her? So it's not not a kid fresh out of college but somebody who's maybe at least ten fifteen years of experience. Maybe more who really wants to use who she is and what she knows how to do to make a difference and make money you know I guess for me. Teaching University level has been that. I don't think that was my goal. I think but two ratchets thought I have enough energy to get through an. Ma is going to do that and And I thought so there might WanNa teach in a total degree in journalism so I thought okay on just have this and then I forgot all about that for twenty years or longer and then when I saw that ad I thought you know I always wanted to do that and it seemed like the point where you be giving back so I I guess experience and I think you find it when you know you see that ad airport That says yes. That would comfortable those goals. So that's a good point. Basically what you're saying if I'm here you ride is You'll feel the next step when it shows up at this residents with what feels right as you explore different opportunities Miami that I think so I guess I guess it's like has come to be that way in kind of in decades ten years spurts coming out with well. I find that so many people think they have to plan for their next. And it's like yeah but be present where you are do what you're doing now and then seeing ended the last planning a twenty two thing is true everything is just like. Oh that's great. That's a great line to to end on as well. So thank you so much for joining us. Today and Connections Radio Brooke Kroeger journalist and author of many books on women suffrage in the media including the suffragettes. I love that title. So who is your favorite female reporter? How do you think female reporters doing today to eat? Twisted Joel Mike and Sooner posted on our facebook page. Find us on apple podcasts or anywhere else and leave us a review if you would or on our website. Greek CONNECTIONS RADIO DOT COM WHEREVER. You liked to listen to the favorite podcasts. Thank you for joining us on John Michaelson next.

editor reporter US New York City Miriam Michelson congress Women's Media Center Academic Journal nyu Black Women professor writer John Michaelson Brooke Newsday apple American Journalism investigative reporter Nellie bly
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07:00 min | 9 months ago

The First Investigative Reporter

"Welcome to hidden history. I'm your host kid crumb today. I I want to mention a name. You're probably not familiar with. Nellie bly why and then the name. You're probably very familiar with Jules Verne. You may even have read one or all of his extraordinary voyages journey to the center of the Birth Twenty Thousand Leagues under the sea around the world in eighty days but of the three it was the latter around the world. Eighty days that true the same question from so so many readers. Could someone really go around the world in eighty days. The Stories Chronicle of the adventures phileas fogg whose wager to circle the globe involves also him in one cliff-hanging escape after another. The story was first published in serial in eighteen. Seventy three and immediately caught the attention of readers who tried to guess what challenge Phileas fogg would face. Next fog started his epic journey by taking the Orient Express which departs from from London. He travels across France the Alps to reach Venice here. He moves on to Brindisi where they changed to a steamer that brings some across as a matter of training and see to Suez in Egypt. Rail and steamer across the Mediterranean Sea Seven Days Suez to Mumbai steamer across the Red Sea and the Indian Ocean thirteen days. Mumbai Calcutta Rail Three Days Co Cutter Hong Kong steamer across the South China Sea. Thirteen days. It all starts. PHILEAS fogg of London makes a wager of twenty thousand pounds with his friends at his reform club. He must circumnavigate the globe in eighty days or less or pay up. Fog brings with him his newly employed French Valet La to help him on the adventurous journey in around the world in eighty days. Fog never flew in a hot air balloon. The iconic symbol of the hot air balloon rolling became associated with Jules Verne's book in the Nineteen Fifty six film starring David Niven but it was Verne's book five weeks in a balloon published. Louis June eighteen sixty three where three Englishmen flew over Africa in a hot air balloon and it was that same book that allowed the French author finance the freedom them to write full time on November fourteen. Th eighteen eighty nine. Nellie bly set sail to beat the fictional record set by Jules Verne in his novel around the world in eighty days a daring four correspondent in Mexico when she was barely out of her teens. Nellie went on to greater renown now when she went undercover as a patient in a New York lunatic asylum in revealed the cruel neglect with which the mentally ill retreated her book. Ten Days in a mad house published. When she was just twenty three became a bestseller Nell as greatest fame came two years later when she set out to create or recreate? Felice fog's journey around the world. NATY DAIS dispatches to New York world as she traveled the globe job were read by millions. Bligh had already earned a reputation as the world's first investigative reporter and fearless individual her previous escapades including uncovering the plight of female factory workers and checking herself into a mental institution for ten days had been sensational adventures that introduced produced a new frontier of hands on journalism but her popularity was waning. This more reporters began to parrot her style. After reading Verne's his novel by approached her editor at the New York world with an outrageous pitch if he would allow it she would make the journey a document her experience for for the paper. A Journey of the scale bligh proposed was unprecedented by man or woman and although blind sister that she could undertake it without chaperone yeah prone the male senior staff at the paper. Were unconvinced of a woman's ability to succeed preferring to send a man instead bligh had her answer the ruddy very well start demanding all start the same day for some other newspaper in Albedo the editor in bligh planned ahead impact extremely light rather than the dozen trunks. Our editors derisively predicted. She would need to carry with her. Blind took along just a single piece of luggage sixteen eighteen inches wide seven inches high in a bag easily. Small enough to comply with today's airline carry on regulations. She packed a few changes of underwear. Where toiletries writing implements addressing? Gal a tennis blazer. A flask a cup to caps three veils a pair of slippers needle thread and some handkerchiefs. She packed not a single spare dress. Wearing only the garment she commissioned from a dressmaker made made of plain blue broadcloth in her only concession to vanity. Bligh did carry a single jar of cold cream. She refused to take a revolver assured of the world's greeding reading me as I greet them. She Departed Jersey City on August POURIA A ship sailing at thirty seconds after nine forty PM November fourteenth eighteen eighty nine ambitiously. She aimed not merely to mass. PHILEAS fogg round the world record but to beat it hoping to be on the road for no more than seventy five days and four hours bligh dispatched. What brief note she could to her nursed? I newspaper the world by cable though. She was surprised when the Italian speaking cable operator ask her what country New York was in her more detailed handwritten reports however travelled by ship. Slowly as she did her editors forced a string out the story to maintain the public's interest began printing reaction pieces from foreign papers in geography lessons on all the countries lie was visiting after eight thousand Mile Journey Cherney across the Pacific and two weeks of silence from the woman in the moment it was a relief to everyone arrived safely and San Francisco back on American soil blast last Dolly Bligh arrived in Jersey City at three fifty one. PM On January Twenty Fifth Eighteen Ninety only seventy two days six hours eleven minutes and fourteen seconds after she left it. Nellie bly retired from journalism at the age of thirty to get married she died. Nineteen twenty two at the age of fifty seven eh around the world with. Nellie bly was produced here at night all sound studio and brought to you by the Rogue Valley Metaphysical Library and al MM CREEK CABINET RIDERS GETAWAY AT AL CREEK CABIN DOT com. Check it out. I'm kid chrome. Thanks for listening.

Dolly Bligh Nellie bly Jules Verne New York editor PHILEAS fogg Mumbai Calcutta Rail Three Day Phileas fogg London Jersey City Felice fog Mediterranean Sea South China Sea Suez Venice Nineteen Fifty Mumbai Africa NATY DAIS Stories Chronicle
Haunting of Bly Manor & Lovecraft Finale

The Nix

54:33 min | 5 d ago

Haunting of Bly Manor & Lovecraft Finale

"Welcome to the Knicks where we talk about pop culture until we can't stand it anymore and we sit I'm Justin hard tongue and I'm fanny darling. As always a quick warning, there might be spoilers for anything we talk about on this podcast, but we always do our best to let you know that they're coming this episode. We've got a review of the haunting bly manner plus thoughts on the forty year old version and the season finale of lovecraft country if any, what scared you most the creepy kids shots or the Scottish accents. I think that was the accents layaway bet now isn't it? As always a to rate, review us on Apple podcasts at pod Chaser pod bean stitcher cast box wherever you're able to do such things are even what those words mean, but you probably do smart. As we mentioned our main topic. This week is the haunting bly manner. This is Mike Flanagan series. He did haunting of Hill House last time which we had mixed thoughts on, go back and listen to that episode us now back where they second season that is based on the works of Henry James especially turn of the screw which was made into an excellent nineteen sixties movie called the innocence go watch that if you haven't. There are some returning faces from the first season playing new characters, Henry Thomas, Victoria Ready, Oliver Jackson Cohen Jack, and still not say her name. Colleague Gano. Yeah, they come back and as a whole new story. There are new actors in this to Nia, Miller and Rahul. Coley. Yeah what did you think of hunting? Why am I think we're going to nonsmokers I This has dropped. You know whatever almost a week ago. So we'll just make this really quick if you haven't seen this. Goes Worth Watch. Yes. Short answer. Yes. with out any spoilers I found it to be quite eerie. While acted if not, well accented. I enjoyed it I. thought that the kids were good and that's not always true about children. Interplay, between characters was good I, give it a go ahead and go watch it without any spoilers. So do you want to give a rating for people who don't I'll for people without? Yeah. This is on the high end of Nice. Right just to refresh people are reading system is nice. Let me start with orders. Knicks not for me Nice Or incredible and somewhere in the middle, there is necessary viewing when there's something that's good. But not necessarily. Nice. All right. Cool. So I. I'm with you I thought it was nice. I enjoyed this more than on a hill house I thought it sort of had more compelling characters I cared more what was happening to all of them. It you know a lot of people are talking about how it's not as scary I actually found it more scary in the beginning especially just because it was a really creepy slow dread thing. I. Didn't think Hunting Avila Ounces. Really scary at all. It's like just having some like you know jump scare broken neck lady things wasn't really my thing. This has a much better sense of dread. That sort of pervades it I agree with that a lot. and. It's odd because I think that if if you're taking Shirley Jackson, what should have been scary is dread is the I don't know if this is happening in my mind or if there's something actually terrifying coming for me. And that's what's so terrifying about her which she does so well. So the fact that they dropped the ball on nat haunting of Hill House and just made it cheap jump scares was a very odd choice for me. In this one, they really did the the dread better in the something coming down the hallway or over the bed or in the corner of your eye, and that's what creeps me out that scares the shit out of me this one. Scared me a lot. Parker and I did a lot of the no no. No. I. Don't like that new who we're not doing. So I think that's a good segue into spoilers. Should we do it? One. Literary bastardisation two ladies. Three bad accents take it away because I feel like you have some questions about the accents I know we're gonNA play accent COP, right? Yeah. So I ask you how you felt about the accents like I don't know Henry Thomas. So I have basically right now the the swinging lightbulb you. witnessed. Negation. I thought it was fine. It may just be the hot knows. Dramas, aware Henry Thomas Thomas. We're not going to that one because that's the worst. Hayden spoilers. Know Henry. Thomas fine to. Yeah, I had no problems with any of them Oh my God. Oh my good Lord Okay and Oliver Jackson Cohen you thought this was a good Scottish accent. Think Scottish sound like for all this once again slowly for all the Scottish people out there, what did you think of their accent? You thought this was a good representation of their culture. It was not Austin powers and it was also coming out of that face. Austin. Powers was played for laughs. And? A parody so not as bad as played for laughs and a parody. I don't care what his nose looks like just. That was a borderline insulting. Wow and. Sounded like. Go ahead. The narrator. Knows, what did you think? I thought she was fine I'd like literally if. A better able to just be like gaffes who wear these. because. I don't even know that. But that's what I'm GONNA do next time I'm GONNA be guess who was doing an accent right right. Because we're by this game. Yeah we'RE GONNA. We can't play it with Rebecca because which dropped this week because you already know that armie hammer is not British. Otherwise, we're GONNA play this game damn. Nice. I'll wait cop and old people make up cop. Also. Not Good. I didn't really notice I did think the narrator looked a lot like. Like. Like British Holly Hunter. That's fair but Justin. After, our night at the shed. And you telling our friend from maybe ten feet away that the most ridiculous wig I have ever seen on a human being. The most obvious whig short of being holographic. was only really like your hair I. Totally agree. I. Am a really lousy a guy like you're not oh God and then I was kind of made big is it you like just an and you thought Nice about his bare. Who knows frank? Frank is a now elfin. Peter Pan I who knows maybe he can grow crazy long hair we wouldn't even notice it and. I wouldn't be surprised me this look like Danny I'm being polite. Sublime, manner. Okay like did I thought it was moving I. Did WanNa talk a little bit about? The sort of queer kind of trope stuff in it. I was I was reading some stuff online about how? Did the usual kind of. Kill. That kill the repressed lesbian storyline and spoilers? Yes. Technically. But I I don't know I thought it challenge that a little more than than it's been done in the past. It wasn't necessarily like a tragic thing ray I. I think that is the difference is a it wasn't a tragic thing. Be She was yes. She was repressed up until the point that she lost the fiance and went on. Her quest but pretty much the minute she met Jamie. She wasn't and she had some questions but mostly her questions where I would like that ghost to stop staring at me while I kiss you. Hold that's in that. Sense. And? She once they fought the fight together they had I mean by math at least ten to fifteen years together. And where they lived a life and eventually she sacrificed herself for everyone else and. An everyone was happy about that and and they didn't I didn't feel that this was a you know kill kill the queer or kill the repressed gay person at all. I just in fact, I was glad they celebrated that part of this story made their love. Something that was that they've that made them stronger that made them fight you know that that made them better against the forces of evil and she doesn't seem. Like the survivor doesn't seem traumatized. Almost like emboldened or resolved or there was something that I liked about the way to handle her post lose absolutely. Absolutely also, I really want to give a shoutout to both Tony Miller and Sorry I'm his role, coli. Storyline. So sweets. Such. The heart of the story in some ways I was completely wrapped up in their storylines and. I don't know I just really WANNA see more to Miller she's amazing. I've heard she's in years and years the British version. I'm totally excited to go check that out she is I couldn't keep my eyes offer. They're both really good. So she was great. I loved I did love that story I liked role in Isaam be which I I liked a lot. But I, thought he was one of the best things in it so I was happy to see him in this I did find his mustache distracting because it made him look like Moesby with the British accent accent from how I met your mother. So that was distracting. But he was wonderful and I liked. The there they were the kind of the heart of this found family and I liked that a lot I thought the kids were really good. Really the little boy when he had to embody the spirit of Peter Quint I thought he did a great job unsettling and mature for or the. The way he has his face looked it was he did a good job of being eerily. Masculine and mature and I. It was well done I. I did see the Hannah. Coming. I gotta say I didn't see I was pretty like. By most of it and I, I love the innocence but I didn't remember a lot of the plot points. I was just like. Hanging. On every twist and I just. I thought there was one scene in particular in the kitchen where the little girl basically has an I see dead people lying all the sent sense but also turn of the screw itself. People that? The nanny the pair thinks that she seeing our ghost and are dead. So I kind of was like Oh along with the I see dead people seem Hannah's either power's GonNa be dead later and not know it and so I did see it coming but I didn't take anything away from it and one final thought I really for me at least I thought the. Mike Flanagan is the creator producer of this but he directed I believe all of the first season episodes of knees all different directors and I think that was a good call I think maybe that's not is forte I agree I do think it's interesting that he has taken these two basic properties in ideas that were both made into very interesting and you know. Subtle or films if you will even though very scary but subtle horrify films from the sixties and and I'd be interested to see if they get a third season what they'll do with it but I think he definitely has a type of movie that he is interested in recreating investigating and it is these sort of repressed horror films if you will. So what what would you want from third season? Any ideas about? The uninvited would be interesting I. Think in that same vein in the sixties, the that that sort of subtle black and white scary you know and it's ghost because my other one from black and white super scary. There's nothing you can do with night of the hunter, but uninvited is still horror. That'd be good. I'm trying to think of one than I would like. Maybe like a good witch one, there's some good sixties which movies that's treating the name but. We could do a good. There's one. There's a really crazy one with. The witches during the sort of dark ages big to. The spikes forever these great. Yeah Val Luton Lavelle all movies to. Yes there Cap Mike Flanagan because you're listening. To us and take these things and call us. Out some sort of yeah, we got notes. We can work out some sort of sponsorship deal. Just give us a shout. So we also wanted to talk about. lovecraft country finale dropped. It was very. Drama. Packed episode we're I think we're going to go just full spoilers on this because it's been a few days. If you've watching love country were guessing you probably already watched this so. Yeah, we're going to just dive into thoughts on this. What did you think of the finale and then also then you gotta give a great for the whole season Indiana the great for the whole season just up top. Yeah. I'm I'm happy to do it. Okay. I loved finale I. Thought it was brilliant. I still think the show is masterpiece. And I it's. It's not even a question in my mind I. Think this is incredible. I think this is mandatory viewing I loved. It gets an incredible and unnecessary viewing. Yes. Yup. Yes. That's right. Double N. right. Do you wanted to talk more before i. go I mean, what did you love about it? Would you? I forgot we full spoiled spoilers. So I was trying to be like right stig in. I. I love that it took this novel that was as you have said before incredibly well researched and. Well meaning and. A Fun Romp and handed it over to a group of people who said Thank You Now, we're going to put our heart and our soul and our trauma and our pain and our pride and our joy into it and turn it into so much more and. Make a fun science fiction show that people want to sit down and watch but that while you can't look away from it. Were going to make you investigate, investigate yourself investigate. Your prejudice and your. All of your thoughts of the way that you view the world and you have to sit and look at this and. And I think that was a real theme of the show anyway and I just. I thought he did it brilliantly. I thought it did it unflinchingly and UNAPOLOGETICALLY and I. I just adored it. I thought the performances were amazing. I think there were many star making performances in this show and I really. Thought it was so smart on. So many levels so much about shared trauma and personal trauma and family trauma, and what we do to each other and how maybe. We need how if we bind bound together instead of blaming each other maybe we can do something about fixing that trauma at least for each other. Nice you. I'm going to give the series as a whole for me a nice I? Think it was a lot of fun. I will say I think the last episode was a borderline not for me. Next are I felt the same way about the final episode is I did the second episode I think that overarching artem plot was just not very well done. not really that satisfying. I did not know kind of what they were doing with all that frequently like literally like I just did not know what was happening and I had to go online to figure out. You know why Blake Ruby was reincarnated I mean not Ruby letty was reincarnated because casino said the spent. I looked online at a million people understand no, I get that a million people didn't get that and. I only caught it because I of the way I was watching it. I was watching super closely and I was kind of like there were lines that I weren't wasn't catching in the closed captioning so I had. Gone. Back. Fifteen or twenty seconds. And then I had to kind of like think Oh, I see what happened here that she whispered the spell and then I was like, well, why would she do that? And might I investigated and what in my mind and my assumption is that she did that for Ruby that she thought you know if I'm ever GonNa if I have any chance of redeeming this with her, I can't kill her sister. And A lot of the plots I guess was again, I know this because I read it online magazine understood it was in. What's her name's flash for visions of the? Future. And there were so quick and very like I. Didn't know what I was supposed to be looking at. So some of this is just kind of direction for me of this episode it felt rushed and sloppy. It's funny. We talked about in the beginning like buffy this felt like a little bit like a bad buffy episode. Shannon Houston loves her buffy writer. Yeah. It little of that. When buffy was bad it just felt like kind of Bombie like awkward way. and. I am so very caught on Montrose is portrayal. Just, feeling a little a sure what the point of that Turkey wasn't that was a new edition from the novel. I mean it wasn't a new having him be clear. Yeah Yeah. And I just I don't know. I. Don't know what I'm supposed to make that I just felt a little like you made a really horrible to decision. Halfway through the series by killing two spirit person which show really never like what was the point of all of that? There was a lot of loose ends throughout the course of the season that I felt like, why did we do that? What was that four? I will agree with you about that. That seem. And And that decision to to to make that I? Think the main reason was then to show how it? Upset tick. In his to show that he cares. About the about those people in scare quotes as an idea but when they're his no, I get you. But when it's his dad, he has a very different feeling and and his Co. and that his feelings about his father being gay are more tied up in his. Feelings about but you beat the crap out of me. Because I wasn't supposed to be soft, and now it turns out that that you were just proving. To the world that you weren't soft and I get what they were trying to build their i. think there were other ways to do it besides Killa to spirited person I agree with that I don't know that if there's a season to that that won't come back I do think. Backs. The scenes that they ended up having in the last two episodes between Montross and tick and. Who Montross now that he is able to say to his family who he is right he has such an opportunity to break so many cycles and be there for chicken muddies kid and not be this person and that. That tick. Let him go with that like let him go with the love and let him go with the do this right and be there for my son in. You know right and I liked that imagery and I. Get why they decided to do that. But you know I also, I'm not sure also jaaz character was. Particularly, well used or around it out I mean she was basically. Ex foxtail at the end of this thing. Just like not really any substance other than just. Letting go of her. Feelings for atticus and just becoming part of the family in that way unbelievably sweet and wonderful car seen which I do want to call out was to me like the best and tire upset. Of the series. Yeah. Sort of again chosen family big beam of ours but yeah and. Closing wounds and coming together for the greater. Good. You know. I. I loved it. I love again Andrzej I can't pronounce her sorry Orange Avenue I don't know how to pronounce last name. But I have learned her first name and I will learn her last name by the second season who plays hip Elida. God just thinks she's great. I think the woman that plays Ruby is great. And I do hope they bring this back and I. Know that you have read the book now Justin do you WanNa said Yeah. Yeah I mean I really enjoyed the book more than I. Thought I was going to I was very nervous about reading the book I was first of all like I hadn't heard anything about it before the show started that was like Oh, my terrible. I had no idea. It was a thing. 'cause you said I've I've put the novel on hold I'm like which one? Right which lovecraft also an eight lovecraft. Fortunately, the shows very little to do. It Yeah I just thought this book was totally a good read. Exactly. Like you said in the beginning I think it is well researched. It is. You know there's a lot of good intention there I. Think it's sort of crafted better like mechanically in a way it's obviously a different medium, but I really liked how he tied all of that stuff together. But. You know I do. I will say this is why give the show a nice especially as I do think that sort of lived in real experience of the show runners and the creators, and they really imbued it with a sense of kind of experience and shared trauma and experience that the novel does miss out on a little bit. So it's funny. It's like I. Liked it better in some ways and I also found the show more emotionally satisfying another way. So that makes sense Split on as you can tell. I get that I have two more things before we we wrap up go do I did what what you saw there I want to ask you had different feelings on this and maybe you were trying to avoid it but I wanted to ask you about how you felt about these journey. Go. No. Notice in general. General? Okay. Well, first of all, I don't know her name, the actor, but I loved that character I thought the Jig Abobo character episode was probably the best episode in the series. The Tulsa. One really kind of stuck out to me. The the very last shot was definitely a little weird to me. Also, I didn't totally again another thing I didn't get I didn't understand that that was like ticks Chicago that he had somehow. I didn't wear were we supposed to glean that other than his in the episode where they make the Chicago the first time it shows up in, it jumps in front of him. That was a completely different shots. That's the dark Chicago so that letty and tick May and trained, and you know. So He Hanso it was there to protect the family and how did they make it I missed all of that was in the magic you have to stop watching the show between your fingers just. I think I'm also. We all know him face blind maybe I'm shocked face blind I didn't realize these different Shaw Oh. My God most of the shots are like you know pink this one is much darker. Work face surprised when the Shah got burst out of the ground like WHO's this? Yes I mean they didn't know that's how the what their magic was going to create but they had created the spell of protection and he had the you know the the. Invulnerability, so they created a sheriff cell. Bubba a spell of protection, and then it bursts out of the ground. They didn't realize that it would be their own Chagas, but they did create it and delaying production magic. This is not my original thought. I saw this on twitter, but I was like. Yet, another one. At third entire episode about do not leave de alone what do they do in the final episode they leave her alone in the car well, that's a theme though the. Turning, well, trying to protect someone and worrying so much about what they're doing that you. Specially with children that you abandon them while you're trying to protect them and and I think that. I'm looking somewhere else because I'm busy trying to protect you and I can't see that a you can protect yourself and but be that I'm leaving you alone to you know get eaten by a shotgun. So maybe that final shot where she takes definitely a slight turn to the vengeance side. Well, maybe this is if they reckon with this than great. Okay. Here's the thing. I she had every right to strangle that motherfucker. The woman right to kill most diverse. Yup Now, I'm getting to that. There's a reason for that. Yes the woman killed her father. Okay. I'm sorry kill killed her father who she loved dearly fucked with the rest of her family probably just killed basically you know I mean her cousin but also basically her uncle and All kinds you know a man she grew up with, but also all of the spells that she was reading don't watch between your fingers had to do with. In. Order to get magic spilling blood. So just watching her stand just watching her die the woman was dead anyway wasn't going to get her magic. Oh, feeling what I literally. Realise. That spilling her blood. is a step that needed to be taken for her to get magic. It was in the book she was reading. Books the when when she had the big book in front of her okay. The talking about spilling blood was. So, that was actually important for season two and the fact that she needed to spill blood. So she's GonNa go full willow I'm guessing I don't think she'll willow I. think she just needed it's it's their families magic she wanted to take it and she deserves it but. I guess yeah. I guess really when you're dealing in these somewhat comic bookie like rights and wrongs is that kind of vengeance to get magic? And here's the thing. Yes it is and here's the thing. Christina would have done Christina did do it to them right? You know she didn't give a shit about any of them. She didn't. You know she. She thought that you know going through the motions of of feeling of even trying to feel what Emmett till had felt was enough and would give her something and but but really she she said it flat out. No I don't care. So why is it? The D. was supposed to care about her well we're we're not holding. Christina as a morals of paragon. No, but I'm also not going to hold de up for you aren't. You shouldn't have done this I think she had every right to do it I think at the crowd, her family's birthright. Mental trauma from. Her Mental. Trauma. I I don't think it the character I don't think killing with what they've shown what that character I don't think killing someone is going to mess with her. Trauma any worse in fact? I think it was shown to be a bit of strength and. No I. Well, it's interesting because tick I think also has dealt with the ramifications of killing people in the war and if they if they his way less justified though if they address this in a meaningful way in the next season I will be intrigued I. Don't think they see I don't feel like they even need to address it in a meaningful way. I. Think DIS killing his way different than what ticket in the war I understand that he was a soldier and it was under command but DIS killing way more justified. Way You know. Yes, it may have been revenge but way more earned and does not need to weigh on her conscience. The way that that ticks kills late laid on him the the meaninglessness of this this was not meaningless. This woman inflicted pain on her. killed or her father was dying anyway, and so I'm going to get some blood, take your magic and you're done hurting my family. The vengeance part of it. Would wait I think the vengeance was very small. I. Don't think. So is worth I don't agree with you felt a little game of thrones to me. It felt a little like HBO was like Yeah More Aria death. That was way I don't know I did not get that at all and. I. Don't. I don't think they need to reckon with Osler which brings us to if they need to reckon with it what do you want to see? It's he's into Destin. Oh Gosh I don't know I could their parts from the book that I think they could still adapt at the devil doll from the book I know they sort of yes. Please adopted that story into the the Jacob storyline but that devil all was pretty spooky if a little bit of a rip off of trilogy of terror with Karen Black running away from the crazy tall and if you've ever seen that but. No. Yeah I. Hope I mean I here's my total wishlist. Right? Here's just makes it better show, but it's just it makes it for him show. Isn't that part a little less score like I think this show one things I liked about the book was it was not very gory even reading it and I think you can make scary good thing that deals with trauma and real pain in history without going. So over the top of the squishy Gore it just was like I felt like that was just piled on there for ratings and attention and it didn't need it. I, I sort of hope that. It avoids a little bit of the troop blood trap of and I get you blood vibes from the show a tiny bit like. The overarching plot was not great. I like the individual stories much better and if there's a way I know that at some point. The author, the Book Matt Is Matt Rough At said that he thought it was like X. Files, but like with black older than scully said in. The sixties and Just go without a little more I. kind of like the overarching plot should be very sort of pushed to the background. They need a new bad guy. Clearly I done with the break twice bring on new. And also you know to say when I said deal with the ramifications of what happened also rudy and tekere goes back a bet you anything. I okay. As much as what I want to watch is a show about Lettie and tech and being the New Jersey in Harriet with their adorable small children. I want that was all of my heart. I hope the show again, taking a cue from game of thrones has. The bravery to leave tick debt a hope that they can do that. Maybe you're gonNA flashbacks are having been some sort of fantasy scene or something i. hope they can do that Because I think his sacrifice was important and I think that that by doing that sacrifice, he'd left a place to break cycles and I thought that was a good message I. It will break my heart to watch letty raise George on her own but I hope they. They have the balls, leave 'em debt I think if they will or not a whole season to buffy situation. Brexit. and. I Ruby I think they will bring her back I don't think that the the implication at all was that she was dead and so it's a matter of can they find her in the spaces condition that she's in in the basement of wherever Christina was keeping her? I don't care if they. I mean I want them to reckon with the way. The family had to do ev- whatever fallout came from that. I don't think they need to reckon with. D.. I want to watch the and Ruby, go to to many different worlds and play with machine and. And go to planet some space. That would be super. Sorry I'm sorry hippolyte and the Yothu I mean Rubican that's that's. Riddick come yeah. I like Ruby. All right should we move onto a? That we did what you saw there are sheriff feature where we talk about. Drink. So if I'm going I, I have to take a drink of my drink. Why only of two things although when? I saw forty year old version on Netflix's is rod blanks. directorial debut she also stars in it. It is about A. Woman in new. York City in Harlem basically nearing forty and she is a playwright who has sort of You know got an early cleaner life in his now feeling unfulfilled, she decides to become a rapper. A sort of a midlife career crisis and Find some romance along the way and just sort of figures out what she wants to do and where her kind of balances and. You know she thinks a lot about her family history. This is a very sweet movie. I want to get a shot on my Peter Kim who I knew a million years ago in New York and another life is in this movie as the gay best friend he's stifle super proud of him. Go Peter is awesome wrote a blank blank is really wonderfulness I think watching her performance and her kind of directing herself. She really knows exactly what she's. She's doing. She's got a great sense of humor. That really comes through in this. She was originally I guess a writer on she's gotTa. Have it the TV show and there's a lot of spike Lee early spike. Lee. Baked into this or the rhythm of it it's black and white. But it's it's not derivative. Feels like its own thing? The Not for me parts of this, I will say were it was a little long and a little light TV ish I wonder if that has something to do with her background like there was sort of a Sitcom, you thing that took a while to get going like some of the targets were a little easy. It's amid fun of like New York pretentious theater scene. It's funny but we've also seen it a million times so i. don't know the strongest stuff with this was really just her own story I'm going to give it like a nice I. Think it's worth watching on that flex. Your enjoyment of depend upon. How much you mind that sort of TV cutesy ROM com this which does have a touch of. I also watched my octopus teacher on net flicks. Expect to watch that did not expect a quiet at this documentary about. A. Weird. Guy. WHO has also like a midlife career crisis breakdown, he's a film maker. Of the surreal about real story and he goes. Diving he's like lives and some beautiful coastal area D likes diving and he finds his octopus. The becomes his slightly creepy best friend. This is little grizzly man teacher yes. Yes. Best Friend and teacher Grizzly Man Herzog movie without. The Guy Dying at the end. So if that sounds good to you. I would give this like kind of a porter borderline. Nice. It's seems ridiculous and I, think this guy's probably truly creepy jonkers and maybe filmed like five different octopus occupy and pretended it was one who knows. There's nothing I can say about that but he did get great footage of as octopus. Fighting off sharks and just crazy stuff and I I did like the idea that it was really kind of about how you can't. Distance Yourself from your subject is the filmmaker. Even when it's a nature documentary, you know you sort of WanNa be dispassionate Richard Attenborough side voice in the background. Nature just has its way and it really gets it how sorry hard to do right like he wants to interfere in say this octopus and I felt it. So that's what I. Would think you get to interfere and save the octopus yeah. Get to do I was I was thinking about that definitely. Okay. I'm GonNa Start just because it's a good segue and removing from one topic to another with a tiny world, which is also. Supposed to be a nature documentary, it is on at Apple TV plus it is narrated by Paul Rudd he of ant man I get tiny fame. It is all about teeny tiny little. Creatures in different environments of the desert, the garden. Australia because everything's trying to kill you in. Australia and. I do not know how much of this show is CGI and I'm not gonNA look it up because I do not care. This is the cutest show. It's very sweet I have cried. About, little tiny tiny creatures trying to save their homes this week. And their babies and. It's so forget about. A carpenter be that builds a home over its baby even though it's never going to see it's baby because they don't live that long and the little home has to there was crying I'm going to cry now if I keep talking, this is beautiful I don't care how much of Gee I if you look it up, don't fucking tell me I don't care. Watch, the show it is so sweet I'm I'M GONNA. Put It so far. I haven't watched it also. I have two episodes so I can't give it a considered. I'll save migrate it's acute you guys you have to watch. I watched you should have left. This is a borderline neck. This. was to ninety nine Amazon rental. It was two, ninety nine. I would like to have back as well as an hour and a half I'd like to have back. It's like you know we'll go story like the house is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside Kevin Bacon Amanda said freed. Yeah. I said that there are a couple. She's what thirty years younger than him. They do at least sort of try and deal with that like act like their ages are inappropriate but whatever. It's boring. Slightly creepy and ultimately just completely unsatisfying. I have nothing else to say about it don't watch it. So before line next, it's it's an it's you know I I everyone in it I still love you. You're great whatever. Instead a left, your living room couch. Sorry. Shuttle left you. Three dollars in your pocket does what should Those three dollars that you had on your get on your Amazon balanced been back in you balance. On the other hand daytrippers right now free on I. Think we found it on. HBO. Schreiber with really bad hair he he is aging well, we love you Leo driver he of the Banana. Republic, and very tall person. I've seen him in banana public in Brooklyn. That's. And you he also has a non binary child. So Leeann, I are meant to be I'm just saying. Parker Posey Hope Davis Stanley Tucci who's aging backwards in this strangely much more attractive now at sixty something than he or fifty something than he was thirty something with the weird like bald personalit-. That did. Not Thinking of. Mitzi. Whatever is from. C.. No you've dope drinking drinking. I. Didn't because he's so unattractive that I couldn't even associated with Bitsy who I love I love I'm. And Campbell Scott who is proof that don't ever pick the floppy haired guy because go look at pictures of Campbell, Scott now versus Stanley Tucci now always pick the Stanley Tucci. Really, Mirror Pat McNamara and Marcia Gay Hayden. Hardened sorry in the best friend that you always want that you meet at a party role. It's This is kind of a like a you know a scripts classic probably could have been a stage play type. Of thing they made a lot of these in the late nineties where it's really all about the dialogue. Plot, is a crazy wacky somewhat. Functional family all pile into an aging station wagon and drive into the city to find out if the older sister's husband is cheating on her shocker spoiler alert for a twenty three year old movie, he's cheating on her with a man. But everybody in this is good. The script still is strong and funny and has Schreiber as pretentious lake boyfriend, of Parker, Posey who the parents love and talks about his novel. That is about a guy that is a normal guy if he has a dog face and he tells the whole story of this novel. It. I had forgotten how good this movie is. It's out there. You should search it out. It's good to watch. A also free on HBO Max. And Justin I know you hate it when I talk about watching animation with other people I know. I know it breaks your heart just a little bit. So sad I mean did see whatever at Norwich Mary, the which flowers you got some points but the point are getting taken back. Usually when I watch animation with you, I watch it with my arms crossed and I don't particularly like it afterwards when I watch it with mentioned Layla. I usually really like it I watched the. However you're pushers are able to make this work. I'm mostly pro you watching it animation. So you know I'm. As I said to them last night, it may or may not be a cuddle factor anyway. You bring me to shoot people that will cuddle with me while I watch his show maybe you'll have better luck. So I watched over the garden wall on Hbo Max at Think. This is ten twenty minute episodes. Melanie Linski plays a a durable bluebird at who is trans flagged colored In her coloring. Sorry for lack of having other words. And she's beautiful. Her name is Beatrice and she's my favorite character Christopher Lloyd places Spooky hatchet. Acts ax men woodsmen, something like that. Thomas Lennon from Reno Nine, one one voices at least one character. Shirley Jones is in. Jim Watch IT GAM- Church she's only one episode, but you don't have to tell him that part. And you know she's not Shaun Cassidy's mom. So we love you Shirley Jackson Sankei Steve My best friend on twitter. And ELISHA. Would this This is a story of two brothers. Trying to make their way through maybe haunted may be has where Wolf's would. Woods and to get home. That's incredibly sweet. It's very good. It takes maybe. Three hours of your time. So worth it I'm glad it's on Hbo Max now really liked it. I'm GonNa Watch it. I think you should I think you would think you would really love it that you would maybe cry. I watched I talked about this on our preview ams e soulmates. This is the remake of the Australian show about in the near future. Can we talk about what filmmakers think we're GONNA want in computers in the near future. Because I am not gonNa want like a giant clear screen that I navigate with my hands so that any person can come in and see everything that I'm looking at I'm just not going to want that I, I'm not I'm not GonNa want. I'm not GonNa want clear phone that anyone can see what I'm doing on my phone. Why are these tropes? Why are these things that people think we're GONNA? Want I am so tired of seeing somebody on obviously green screen like swiping their hands across it and like enlarging whatever screen they're looking at. So absolutely anyone can come in and look at it especially if you're cheating on your wife. And your wife is in the House I think a real more accurate prediction of our future relation. Ship Technology is just looking at your phone and throwing Your Cup of coffee directly in your face and then. Thank you I do not understand why this is what they think. We're GONNA want because I don't want this. Now I'M NOT GONNA in fifty years exactly. Anyway aside from that and aside from the fact that. Thinks that this is their next next like prestige, Woohoo, Madman of the future, and we should have like slight. We should have definitely post lots of previews for next week and your favorite scene from last week and sort little interviews from the characters about what this week meant. It's it's not that serious. You guys. It's a show about people that take a test about their soulmate and then. Like hijinks ensue. Sometimes it's supposed to be scary. Sometimes, it's supposed to be sweet. Sarah Schmuck. was in the first episode episode was good. Mostly because I love her so much. David. Constable Gosh she was in She plays Schiff on succession. she is an Australian actor, David Constable who's on billions, which is not as good a show as succession. Is in the second episode, which is Kinda more thriller. The first one is kind of like interpersonal. This one's more like fatal attraction type thing. The third one which is probably been my favorite is much sweeter and it's not just because it's about a pollock you'll. Okay, it's because it's about Akil. pollock you'll. A poly. Situation. But what was the last part of that Paulie? Fuel Q.. Like like. Molecule molecule but pollock. Educating. Yields here. Yes. Anyway third episode. If you'RE GONNA only watch one episode watched the third episode. AMC is already renewed this for a second season. I will watch it I think it's interesting enough it's nice. It's fine and book wise I. Read All of swamp thing twin branches, which is Maggie Stevedores Rendition in these swamp thing graphic novel universe. My I probably would have. Known like understood a lot more of this had I realized that it was an origin story had I realized that swamping was actually like a thing about some guy named. Named, Alec Colin. But I didn't know that. So instead I read a graphic novel about in Walker Holland who discovered that their dad is cheating on their mom and go off to the country to hang out with relatives the summer before they go off to college and one of them super into plants and is like trying to create a potion that. Traps plants, memories and feelings, and then you can take them and feel the plants, memories and feelings and Gab becomes swamp thing. I tried to read I think the Allen, Morar swamp thing I did not make. That was A. Well. If you want the origin story to a book, you didn't like written by Maggie. Steve Water with some good art. I will. I will read anything Maggie Steve Water did this was pleasant half hour I spent with the Graphic novel but again I think. If I had done a little investigation prior to reading it I. enjoyed it more. So we're going to give that a nice goal that is oh, I have one thing to say. I Nick's. Re Upping, Dexter. I? Don't WanNa see anymore dexter the finale was like the poll. If six feet under finale is the pinnacle and the best finale that ever existed in TV ever, and you can watch it alone and still cry and cry for a month and understand everything and it's brilliant and a beautiful piece of art and is one everybody go watch six feet under finale. That's. That's the top right. The polar opposite of that is the dexter finale. It ruined every character. It was stupid. It was long. It was boring it had. A completely implausible ending for Dexter. And part of the reason that they did it. was because they thought they had destroyed characters to the part to the point that. That showtime could never back up like. A dump truck of money and people would come make more. So they're making more of these with mime the whole still in the same creative team or picking it up exactly where I don't know I don't think they've got that far but they are they're upping it and I'm again. I'm not I'm not for it. I mix it. I'm not okay with somebody who never made it past like three episodes of the first. Yeah I concur. I watched the entire series I watched everything. And mostly worth until the the ending. Mostly worth it until basically the last season and a half the last season went. The finale is yeah. Just fucked that you screwed like a line of. Not even one dog. Okay. It's like all the fucking dogs at the dog part. A war it was at the vivid. It was a knicks in a plaid fucking shirt. It was worse. All right where can they tell us their thoughts on the Dexter? Reports, the finale. The finale or you know tiny creatures hanging out with Paul Rudd all of it. All of it you can find us on facebook. It's apple podcast, just search for it. You'll find us you can send us a regular old email. No one does. Push. Push at. To do that, you need this address which is moistened the Knicks at gmail.com on twitter. I think just in his back on twitter because the devil called doom whispered in his ear. But on twitter, we are Avonex podcast and I am at Fannie Darling and I am adjusting her tongue. Have a good week we'll talk to you next time. Bye.

Justin I twitter WanNa Knicks Apple Ruby letty buffy Henry Thomas Thomas HBO Mike Flanagan Christina Tony Miller Hill House Shirley Jackson HBO Chicago Marcia Gay Hayden Danny I bly Parker
S3E10 - Whoa Nellie - Part 1

Pressure Points

55:18 min | Last month

S3E10 - Whoa Nellie - Part 1

"You guessed it pressure points with your to most fabulous hosts in the business on this boy Aj we're hitting you with season three episode ten. Nellie. It's GonNa get saucy to day. Find us on instagram and twitter at point. So fresh. All right I told you not to use that intro or. Exactly why are used welcome back. It's fucking Monday what's new? What's new? This is really confused I was like Puck isn't Monday. It is now. not much just been. You Know Day drinking. I. Heard you had to go to work. Yeah. I went in a few more times this week than. In your sour a couple longer shifts and I was sour four hours nine both of them were a little bit longer than that a little bit of our our shut up about it. Yeah. went out for lunch at the at a brewery, a local brewery and had. A cough coffee, a chocolate stout freaky A co.. A chocolate stout that was. Straight up nearly earned me game. Honestly. STOUTE's in like porters, porters, ports, ports porter thing is Puertas I dunno regard regardless. If that should is dark, it is always good and if you disagree with me get out of my house, you're wrong in my opinion. How political of you? It's because I went into work. So many times this week I'm already back to business back to professional de professional do something I never wished to see such a sweetheart. All right. You do anything fun this last week you know I can't say who I heard it from because I was told not to disclose set information. But I found out about a nice little and we're probably going to get flag because of this nice little secret NSA base Oh yeah corner. Yeah. And I'm still fucked up about it but I'm going to research more about it. Yeah. There to within what like thirty forty miles of us right now where there's one that's really well known. But then there's another one that it's like he was saying that you walk in and it looks shitty on the outside. It's like Oh this is trash. Go inside and it's like like incredible tech. Galore, you have to get past these fucking secure doors, which is like the most US government type thing never hear about. Yeah. But Yeah I'm intrigued. Yeah. We should. We should pull the thread I'm GONNA apply for a job, get it, and then forever be flagged by the government the rest of my life because they're like, is this asshole going to release anything well, the find out that I did. Yeah immediately when you Heard it here I if we mysteriously stopped producing this podcast. Was Not choice and we just call the police. Those police half of this party disappear. If I'm suddenly doing this Solo. Pressure points featuring just AJ? Yeah. There's a product right jeff staging. Then, then is buried in the desert somewhere. A. Also quick little hot hot take on this upcoming episode not this one but one that was suggested to me by thank you so much Haley one of our patriots subscribers I'm going to butcher this name because I didn't look it up. Floor delete a South Asia students are effect I. Don't know but she is Right she's essentially like a Brazilian. I guess congresswoman is the best comparison. political figure. Yeah. Political figure I'm not really going to spoil anything. Also if you're listening to this episode, don't look it up because it's exciting. And don't look it up L. U. She's an ultimate genius I'm terribly impressed by like her like villain prowess. And her is almost on like the sides of her head. This lady looks like a fucking bird. This is probably an alien. Honestly good reliable that threat. Yeah. I I agree I think that it would make sense. So coming up in a couple of weeks who knows when it comes on. It'll be this season. It sounds very interesting but I'm leaving it all to you man it's a it's GONNA be Saucy One Thing is that it's it's really it is a very, very current event That's the best. But this is essentially this season's Chop shop body swap for for me Oh. Yeah. Down good ones. So you're actually going to research. Yeah. Yeah. I know right. Actually put like more than three hours a research into it not three hours did three hours. Twenty minutes. been putting in. So, much more effort and this is bullshit. I do all the editing that's find me don't mind me on pumpkin point that's a new one. That's special Halloween special. That's my solo suffice venture speaking of Halloween. We today started brewing our own backyard brew P. P? Hard apple CIDER. WE'LL keep you up to date on the PODCAST, but in the Patriot. By the time this comes out you'll be able to see I'll have some pictures and videos and stuff, and in on the Patriots, we're going to go like Oh. Yes. Some really shitty phone Oh. Yeah. But we'll We'll on the Patriot and we're GONNA. Keep you up to date every step of the process. We're GONNA WE'RE GONNA teach you how to make your own hard apple cider do it with US subscribe with the at the? over commando rate. or any of them really aren't giving up the recipe the P P. points recipe the recipe book. Recipe book the recipe. I'm saying now stop rubbing your stomach I can hear Dan. I'm saying now we are doing a live stream on the day is but it's like two days three days one day before Halloween. Yes. Around a livestream Halloween episode again because it was so much fun and we're going to we're thinking about doing a sweet little face reveal maybe maybe we'll see we're thinking about it but a nice little little saucy post their livestream will be great. Yeah. So you know all the all the regular stuff. that Halloween episode it's GonNa be fun. We're going to be an we're smashing our bruce. It should be ready it will be ready by the By our episode so we'll be. Drunk and. BE, able it's not the last one. Great when I said Oh I have one more quick story for us and then it went on for another forty minutes. That came out to look at two and a half hour long. Yeah. I expect that to happen. Again I'm covering another story from that same book. So if you like that that episode, there's creepy or story that I'm going to be covering about good If you haven't listened to the the previous one, definitely check it out even though it's it's leading up to spooky season. Yeah. Check it out. It's a it's a nice little preemptive. Spooky Season Listen we'll probably have some more lacy stories in there as well. I'm hoping to get her on one of these episodes. Yeah it'll be. It'll be good ole saucy time. We'll have the the actual day eventually at some point in the future. Yeah. Yeah. Anything. Else new. nope. I don't think. So I, think we're think we're all caught up I really don't do a lot of my life. Well, it's fair can't planted some. Not can't you shouldn't be doing. Yeah. Well today's episode brought to you by De. Slim slim longs. Churn So I'm I'm doing a nice little little collection and I'm taking all of the episodes that I did previously and I'm putting them into one. On this episode we're talking eighteen hundreds New York were talking bad bitches and we're talking institution abuse. You guessed it Whoa Nellie now pressure points well, time waiting for the hesitation so. A lot of people kind of know who Nellie bly is. A lot of people don't do you know anything about mental yes. I know everything about Nellie bly that is a bold faced lie yes but I I am familiar with her story. Okay. So Nellie bly was a a reporter in the late eighteen hundreds. She I don't WanNa see that she started like investigative journalism, but she was a big he fisher. Yeah. She was a key figure for it. Now she is actually the inspiration for A. The book around the world in eighty days by Jules Verne because she went around the world in like seventy five, seventy, two days. What a rip off. Yeah. I know right he's like holders up to eighty piece of shit fell short Now, that's not what this episode is about by any means. Okay. Good. Just a quick little back background on her amazing reporter incredible writer I wasn't expecting. Heard. I mean that sounds terrible but I wasn't expecting her book to be like funny and really entertaining. Because a book that I read his called ten days in a mad house which you see the title and you're like Oh yeah. This sounds. Miserable. Yeah. This is like in late eighteen hundreds. Yeah. You're like I'm. About to read a fucking textbook and it is anything but because it's I don't WanNa say so old but because it's from like the late eighteen hundreds, you can get it anywhere their websites where they'll just copy and paste the entire book and put it on there. I would very very heavily recommend reading it because my a account isn't really going to give it justice because she's a phenomenal writer I'm actually probably GonNa read her other book. It's like when I moved to Mexico. The fucking was but yeah, it's really good and it's super short. It's like ninety six pages long. So that's not bad. Certainly, check it out. Now today's focus like I said ten days in a madhouse If you know anything about. Just general world history. Is. Treatment of anyone with a mental disability mental illness. Is Literal Trash aurea hot garbage their accounts of having. To put on shoes that were bolted to the floor and you stood there all day I sounds great. You would be pushed into a like essentially like a large birdcage that was too small to sit down in, and so you're just constantly standing up. they would shackle you bolt you to the floor. Same kind of thing. They would put shoes on that weren't bolted to the floor, but we're too heavy to move. Oh Yeah Right for me what now? Just, for me personally card, you're gonNA. Put out content you're not going anywhere he's arch. Read all these books. It's just a funnel of fucking apple CIDER. I erred apple CIDER. You're looking at DEF- walk walk right here. Do even mention that we were making hard apple CIDER I can't remember we just did. Did you smoke and now? We talked about it now I, know we talked about it but did we actually say it was hard apple cider care while now he did you kill my vibe. Sorry keep going. Fired up pumped so. Like I said I mean they were just fucking terrible to eating. Like if you were like if you had down syndrome if you had depression. Things I like any any kind of mental illness that we recognize today. Those are still very, very poor like it's not handled well, whatsoever lunacy back then they just were like, Oh, you have a disorder buck you and it was terrible this luckily, not gonna say, luckily, it isn't too bad because like there's some parts that are fucking awful. So. Nellie by Owed D. do you said you had something about mistreatment? It was some funky ass word. Did I yeah I asked you anywhere like I. Don't remember this at all, Oh, my okay. But but I do have something about the mistreatment of people. That's what I was talking. No this is totally just off the top of my head Oh. Have you seen I think I think it's a net flicks show called crop see. So it's about this like this town that had this like urban legend of this dude who comes in snatches you away at night just like. So many places have bogeyman can and it's related to this old asylum that was shut down and you can like go out into the woods to go to the where the asylum wasn't as like this crumbling building. And spoiler basically, it turns out that. One of the people who was in the asylum when it was shut down, didn't have anywhere to go obviously because they were they were messed up. And they did end up probably kidnapping and killing a girl with down syndrome cheeses. Yeah. What the fuck? Yeah it's pretty fucked up. I'm intrigued but they they have the you can see a lot of they. They show a lot of footage from like was it penn state or there's a psychiatric hospital it's famous for its mistreatment but this was in like color footage I think it was in the sixties and seventies where there's this videos of people in their own filth like just shake your shaking in this cheese and his shitty asylums Australiam's what's what's it called what's the show us shows called crops the crops in Karachi Rob S. Y.. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Yeah. Check it out. Super Good. Super Good, especially, because it, it outlines a lot of the abuses that you're talking about today but this is when it's better. And it's still all. Yeah. Because even this, you're just like what the fuck yeah. Pressure points not brought to you by Netflix or plus or child abuse. Really and one's adult abuse. Yes. What was that thing? What? What did they always say like the women you could get a woman incarcerated into an asylum for I mean besides just being a woman on this, literally just being a woman, it's booking horror. I just found a a reason for admission in eighteen, sixty, four to eighteen, eighty, nine get will don't read it I. Want that Shit? Okay. So. Nellie gets called into her her boss's office or editor's office, and he says, Hey, could you commit yourself into an asylum? For for report. and. She just kinda smiles because she's she's like, yeah, I have faith. In my ability as an actress to commence people that I'm on crazy like bio means. So. He says that it's like they're not trying to make these insane like sensational revelations or anything. It's he just says I want you to write down anything whether it's good or bad give praise or blame like. Think that fits but just make sure that you're telling the truth So he looks up at any US I'm afraid of that chronic smile of yours and she just says I will smile no more and she didn't ask how are you going to give me out after I get checked in? That's good. It's like hm maybe more importantly, we talk about the end of this rather than how I go in and he says I don't know yet but we'll get you out if we have to tell you if we have to tell who you are for what purpose you feigned insanity only to get yourself in I. So she's just like Google sounds good to me. So she goes home and she starts thinking how am I gonNa Get Going, to get into this place if you were in her shoes, what would you do in late eighteen hundreds as a New York as a woman how are you gonNa get checked in furiously masturbating? FUCKING H you. That was the reason they put in. deranged. Masturbation I just read it on the list. I. Mean it's fitting. That is not what she did. Okay. Good. So. She's just like I'm GONNA act like a poor crazy girl because there's nothing America hates sin someone that's crazy. But there's nothing America despises like someone that's crazy and poor yes exactly. So She she leaves and she's just like, okay, I got a like lock into my part and she. She's just like, okay I need to assume this I need to be crazy. Any porn crazy. So goes home and she looks in the mirror and she's just like be nuts and go crazy she. She thinks about anybody that she seen. That's that's like feigned insanity or been nuts. And so she's just like I opened my eyes as wide as I can and didn't blink for as long as I could and essentially scared myself because of how literally crazy I looked. Okay. Now, the other thing was that she was like you know I don't really know how to get checked in and so she starts thinking about it and she's like. Well, I could go work somewhere and kind of bothered ladies but that means I've got to find another job and get hired somewhere so she's like we'll leave that for the for the background. So a couple of days she's just she's reading like like impossible ghost stories like right before she goes to bed so that she can't sleep. She is like not really eating because she's like I need to look the part of being like poor and sick. So she like she gets up out of bed the day before she's going to go and she says like she brushes her teeth she washes herself and she's putting yourself down she just kind of looks at it and she says it may be a long time until I see you again. Can't bids it for well like for well, but she's like I'll miss your soap. And she heads out now as she's heading out, she's like, okay should I get a job and try to act crazy it's GonNa be a longer process of be further like all have to worry about being away from home for longer. So she goes you know what I should do. I should find a working woman board house, which at the time it was essentially like it would help women that didn't have the means to own a home or rent a rent an apartment that they would stay at these these board houses for like. Pennies on the dollar, they would get fed that have a place to sleep, but they would still be able to like go into work and not smell like yesterday's Seattle fish market So. She goes I'm going to a women's board house and I'm GONNA make everybody. Think I'm crazy. They're now in it. She says they would never rest until I. was out of their reach and insecure. Secure quarters which I thought was hilarious. She's just like I know women and I know that if I act crazy, they're gonna want me as far away as possible but a safe as possible. So they're like put her in a hospital. Perfect. So she starts walking down the street and she's like, I, know of one. That's like. A mile away or whatever heads over there and ask she's walking she's like. No she determined with her with her editor I'M GONNA go by Nellie Brown rather than Nellie bly because she has a recognizable name because she's obviously been in the press, she's releasing like stories in the newspaper. So she goes by Nellie Brown that way it's easier for the editor to track NBC, which Makes Sense. Like totally different nobody will be indistinguishable names. So before she left, she just grabs like a little bit of money so that she can check in and then but not enough to sustain herself for like a week. She's like I'll have enough for like two days Max. So she's got seventy cents on her and she goes a sooner. I'm broke the sooner I'm going to be thrown into an institution. So she goes to this, this place walked up to the front the ladies like go to the back the back there with a wide is right all I just looking as crazy as possible they they tell her hey, thirty cents for the night check in Gone now I she pays thirty cents goes up to the room and she's like it's it's standard room. But like it's Shitty like for women that are working a really could not have been like a more awful place to stay. She's like for a charitable place like there's no varnish on the tables it's like the beds are made of other trash. You know there's no varnish on my table just the pod stable this one but not like on my dinner table I, mean whatever but. She's just like the wood floors are just like all crackly and Shitty and she's like it's ice cold and she goes the sooner and get out of this place the better because it is fucking God. Awful. So I really good quote that actually liked from this it's really applicable to today. She says, I have often moralise on the repulsive form charity always assumes and they talk about it later on your like fucking Christ really you're giving people like you're giving and you're like Oh yeah. Here's a moldy fucking bread be happy because it's free it's fuck off. Skew's name so she. Tells the other tenants how sad she always is like, oh. Good. I start. Oh, lay. And it's It's so fucking hilarious because. She goes down to this dinner and they give them like fucking beef broth and like rock hard bread. But they put the bread in the beef broth. She asks for it and the ladies like it goes in the soup she's like okay. And like sits down with these these ladies and they're like, Oh, who are you? How are you like? Do you work and she's like I've never worked a day I. Just think it's so sad that people work there like. Working. As A. It's funny because as she's like you're reading, she's just like like sits down with this lady in the ladies like. So where are you from she's I don't remember anything and I'm just so sad about it. You'll like fucking held. Was Me and everybody back then like oh Mentally, insane because how could you be sad in eighteen hundreds of? An eighteen hundreds, New York so She's she's like not bitching, but she's just like I'm so sad on. So miserable and depressed and all all the ladies there like we'll stop being set your cured now Kodiak and I think of that. So. She's she's sitting there in her roommate is just like would you shut up stop being miserable like I can't be in this room with you kiss ladies they're convinced she's nuts. There's women talking about like she's she's a murderer she's going to be crazy. This is a fucking crazy girl one. She actually has a fucking nightmare about her. Wakes up. She's an ramming because she fully believes that Nellie Brown is going to stab her to death in this boarding house she is in your. Cell, before they go to bed or anything this lady Mrs Crane comes over and she's all hey, Nelly roommate all take your spot here. All help Nellie out. He'll be fine and this lady is like so reassuring and so nice. Tonelli she's like everything's fine like Yeah you're sad and it is sad that people have to work. But what better way to really get on top than to find a job and just start doing what you love and now he's like well, I've never worked warner? Miserable here like you fucking bastard like I. Think it's just. She's so scheming. It's great So I this lady goes to sleep in the same bed with Nellie so that she can comfort her through the Night Comfort Nellie to go to sleep. You're like, what like? Mrs Crane, sounds. Just fucking grandma ever. So the. She says I'm struggling to keep myself awake because I have to maintain this insanity. So nellie stays up all night thinking about what she's GonNa do in the future where she's like okay. Well, when I wake up, what do I need to do to keeping Grazie like just to keep herself awake Next thing she knows signed comes up. Mrs Crane turns in his like you still up and she's like, yeah, I couldn't sleep everything's just so sad. And, I'm sure at this point she's just getting tired of like the catchphrase I'm sad it's like fucking hell. So. The owner of the building had gotten a complaint about the lady that has a nightmare about. Like this is your fault that I'm having this nightmare bastard they'll get this crazy bitch outta here. So the owner of the building comes up with the police in like Hey we need to get you out and now he's like Oh. No. No Way and at the same time she like I do need to go with them and she goes oh well, maybe you guys can help me find my bags and the officers are like, yeah we'll help you find your bags. and. So, Nellie goes with them and they're walking along and like everybody seemed nearly walk with these officers and in eighteen hundreds New York they're like, oh look at crazy girl walking with the police. So there are people just following her taunting her she's like their kids that are just coming up laughing like, oh, crazy woman how Fun Jesus. What the hell why is it a community event? Really though so they go and they take her to this area where they're like Oh. Yeah you'll find your bags here they of course, they don't have because she. She never had them to begin with. So they go well where you from like where would your bags have come from and she's like a Cuba and they're like, okay. Well. We don't have them. Do you know who you are and she's like, no, I, don't even know how. I. Got here. Like I don't know anything about my past I just been suffering from headaches ever since attic started I can't remember anything. So they're like. fucking judge like somebody's gotTA figure this out. So they take care to the judge and. Like I said she's like. To New York and they're like, well, you're here. You're here right. So She's just walking and she's like, all right. Well. This'll help kind of expedite things and the judge. is soon as she walks into the room, she sees judge and she's like the kindness I saw every line in his face it's going to be hard as hell for him to get me check into a an assize. She's got like a salt marshes thing. She's just like he's not going to send to a madhouse. So he brings her in any cycle. What happened She's like I mean like I. Don't know. That's the thing that she just keeps claiming she has no idea. She's like a crazy person wouldn't know. So he's like we'll someone's probably worried about your good girl like someone's got to be worried about where you've gone off to you look a lot like my sister I have to take you under my wing she's like God. Just make this half and already damaged. Like how awful is that? You're just like all I have to do is get checked into an say like an asylum. Yeah. Everyone like Mrs Crane, like they're good people here and the judge is like I. People, and she no. To. Stop helping me. So. This officer that standing buyers just like, oh, well, maybe we should just take her to the island since nobody knows to do with her and the building owner even goes no, no, no, no, no no no do not take her to the island and She says she she's GonNa die if she goes there and Nell, he's like I wanted to strangle her for being counterproductive at this point. So. She starts just going wild as soon as this lady's like, don't take her to the the asylum. Nelly just like I immediately just go where am I belongs where my where my boxes where is it? Just starts losing it and she's she's just yelling and so they call an ambulance and the like. Get this lady out of here. The judge is convinced that she's an immigrant and that she was drugged and he's like, I'm gonNA come within the ambulance I really take out. Wow. What though like what the hell what good dude is like I'm GonNa make sure this woman is safe. No right you're like this is not the direction that you thought this episode was going. And she she was rehabilitated out of the kindness of his heart Oh and so one of the quotes she says, if only we had more such men as judged w, the poor unfortunates would not find a life of darkness. So he goes to the doctor and he's just like there's gotta be something we can do for the doctor like sees her and he just it's just he's like well, she needs to go to Bellevue hospital like. Plain. Crazy. Now, she's nuts like he pulls out a light shines it in her eyes and he's all like she's just like I'm straining to keep my eye open like staring off into the distance because I started thinking a crazy person would do and he goes well, her eyes are there dilating and a crazy person wouldn't so she probably crazy but there's something wrong with her. So he's like. I'll take over. So the judge is like, okay just make sure she's alright. So Dr takes her instead and he's all. Yeah, WE'RE GONNA go to Bellevue Hospital and they hop back in the ambulance as soon as I get in get to the. Get to the hospital. This dude throws open the doors and just grabs nilly like fucking crazy heart tries ripping or out of the ambulance and the doctor's like dude calmed down because Nelly just looks she's like what Baucus going off is this yeah and the students like. Okay. My bad. She gets out. He's like fucking trying to rush her and the doctors do you need it stop and he's just like being so aggressive with her So. they get inside and she starts hearing screams from inside the hospital. That's a good sign and she's immediately just like. I don't think I should be doing this. Yeah. slightly. So the keeps telling her. He's all like he's looking at it like this pitched fucking nuts like she's a crazy bitch get out of here and he keeps lying we're like, oh yeah, everything's GonNa. Be Fine. Hospitals can help you. It'll be great and she's like I know he's lying to me because I'm not crazy and I can hear the lying in its voice. So this. This mail worker comes up to her and he just starts asking all these accusing questions and he's like, like, where are you from? What are you doing here and she's like like I don't know I'm I'm saddened crazy. So they're like, yeah. Checker in taker into this room whatever. So the doctors like will be. In like fades away and he's like peace out. Bitch. So nilly goes and she runs into like. A couple women that are in there that that are like Oh. Yeah. I've been held against. My will like I shouldn't be here. which is what a crazy person would say. That's so unfortunate. But at the same time, like you don't diagnose someone crazy and you're not like Oh hey, like you go to a an insane asylum because you say you shouldn't be here. masturbating. Going to drop that. You're. So? And talks to this one lady that's like Yeah I've been held in will all that happened was in my son lost his job and I started working but I started to get sick and I started wearing myself out that I couldn't work, and so we're employers were like, Oh, well, she's crazy centrally asylum you'll like. that. She can't work anymore and they're like, yeah, this bitch is crazy. She doesn't WanNa work. She's sick. She's insane. Must be insane. Yeah. She must be depressed what the fuck is wrong with you please. So this doctor comes up to her and he goes like so where are you like what's? Like do you know where you are what's your story and she's just she keeps of like Feigning Insanity and He goes where is home and she's like Cuba and he saw are you a woman of the city and she's like, no, I mean like I've I had an apartment like I've always lived by myself. I don't live on the streets and he goes. Are you a whore and she's just like what the fuck? It's like they would so quickly assume that if you're not like this working perfect woman the ear, just one a whore and too crazy. I mean but that that checks out that'll checks out I mean what they thought that until like the seventies. Yeah. Some places still think that Alabama. Not to put you. Sorry I just slipped out I didn't mean to say. So she just goes no like. I'm my own person kind of thing. and. He walks away turns to his CO worker and he goes yeah, she's definitely demented. Oh. My God this. Week and she's definitely a slut like I imagine that she's just like he goes all whore and she's like, no, I'm not and he turns to his furnace shoots booked up. Yeah. A Hor- imagine she standing there just for their hands up like who the? FUCKING So after she talks to this like an naval and she goes through like the worst insanity interview ever. There's another lady that gets checked in but she isn't told where she is like she comes in and she's like, where am I like the fuck is going on and this lady her name is Tilley Maynard now and Neville. Until he made ardor to people that are kind of like I guess you could say Nellie constants in the book like her to people she kinda she's like and not crazy. And he just like someone I need to protect So because she's crazy well because the lady like she doesn't know where she is it's not like she came into the hospital in like we're taking you to an asylum like she's just like I don't know what I'm doing here like. I have no. What is what's going on so That night She in your room and she's like it was even colder than the boarding Goddamn at of our you know right and even the is probably moldy. So even at the start when she's at the boarding, how she's like I want to get out of here but I know it's GonNa be worse and renew reading you're like this is definitely gonna be fucking worse. It gets. Worse. Not. To foreshadow or anything, but it was fucking worse. So she asks for an extra blanket they give it to her and she's like it didn't help. It was still is probably got smallpox on it. So the next morning she she wakes up, they go through their like little thing high. Here's a really shitty breakfast like stale bread garbage tea. And I thought it was funny because she brings guy up but never talked about him again. And she's like. This really handsome doctor pulls me into his office and you're like Oh shit is a sex scene in this book. She's just like this guy's fucking hottie and that's it. Raise our Inda he interviews her like she comes in. She's like I'm Nellie Marino and you're like, wait a minute. Nellie. Brown but she says she's switching up to be crazy but even then you're still like you fucking saucy motherfucker. So that. Dr. Do. So he goes. Do you hear voices or anything? Like. Yeah. I hear them but I never listened to him. Good he's like Oh all right now he she leaves his office and this is what I mean. She's like Oh. She points out that he's this handsome doctor and you're reading it. You're like Oh she's into this guy. That's it. He's gone forever. So after she leaves his office, she kinda like stepped off to the side but keeps listening in on everybody else that goes in after her nobody else is saying that they're hearing or seeing anything and she's like Oh shit. I've been hat I'm I'm too crazy and. So. She goes back to a room and there are these reporters keep coming up the like. Oh, the the missing girl, the girl that doesn't know anything. She's a reporter how Shit I didn't think they're going to blow my cover dude. Yeah. They're gonNA walk and be like, oh, that's Nelly I wrote with her. I was at the story with her. So she's in her, she's in a room trying to like cover face and she's like fuck like people are going to know me totally worried because they're going to blow this and her editor is going to be pissed because she didn't even make it to an asylum, which is supposed to be the easiest job in the world for a woman in eighteen hundreds New York. Now she's not an asylum yet. No, she's just a hostile. Oh, she's trying to get into the asylum. Go through this fucking ridiculous process but this is over the course of like two days. Jesus. You think this is an asylum how they're like. Intrigue the way they were treating their notions. So it's still kind of like it's not an asylum, but it's like. Like where they night Hospital. Them Yeah. So She's getting these fucking people that are looking into and she's like Oh God do this is not good. So this guy named Dr Field comes up and he starts questioning her kind of the same questions as she got from Dr Dreamy. Dr Six. Dr. Six. Pack. And she's just like, yeah, like I hear voices or whatever. I don't sleep and he just goes she's hopeless next. Well they gave up quick Oh really think they just completely fucked these women over there like who are these people? High schoolteachers they give us a quick. This is like what the fuck they're all Depressed next. Out Not good at working next. Doesn't sleep well at night next masturbate successive lake. Send them all the island. So she's still chills outside the the room and this tilly maynard comes in and she finds out that she's. Going to go. To asylum but that she's in like a psych ward right now and So she kinda starts panicking and she's like like Y am I here and he says have you just found out the ear in an insane asylum and she's all. Yeah my friend said they were sending me to a convalescent ward to be treated for nervous debility from which I'm suffering since my illness. I want to get out of this place immediately and he just goes. Well you're not going to get out of here in a hurry. Jesus what an asshole and she says he's obviously aware enough that. Like consent. Well, the thing is like this part blew my mind. She goes. If you know anything at all, you should be able to tell that I'm perfectly saying why don't you test me and he says, we know all we want on that score and just leaves. Cheeses. DIED AIN'T GONNA be shown up. by No woman. It's like that's his diagnosis is that he's just like well, I've deemed you crazy. So you're crazy like I've interviewed you as much as I needed to and she's like it was like I'm talking to you now. It's completely fung lazy yourself in those shoes you're nuts you're an you're not even in the asylum yet he sending you to the asylum and he's like, yeah, you're crazy. Done you like no, I'm not. He's like, yeah, you are. Like this is news to me, but like run your test, he's Already. Did he's done. I just did you missed it? Because you're crazy. Dude. It's fucking terrible. Really should not be laughing. Footed, miserable? Awful. System and the thing is like I can guarantee. So many of these things still haven't changed in some I'm sure. So I they round all these women up and they take him onto a dirty cabin on this ship and she's like the floors are covered with. Spit Tobacco like it's just disgusting. And a thirty two big women that are guarding the door and I just imagine like two ladies just what these massive biceps sort of like you're not denote your pitch. Like she's like I didn't WanNa fuck with them so. The boat stops and nobody's the last patient off the boat but she's the only one that's escorted by a large woman. Yeah. I don't know if it's because she was the last one but regardless, somebody's like come on. Well, one of the Katelyn with me over here fucking brooch fucking crazy birch. Like Okay. So nellie asks what is this place? The Lady Goes Blackwell. Island. An insane place where you're you'll never get out of. As this now I'm GonNa talk about something else real quick. Okay. Because like what the book is crazy. So but I guess that's the point. Yeah, exactly. So this is crazy but owns. I in the nineteen sixties. There was and I'm really gonNA try so hard how pissed there's an experiment. Led by Guy Dr Rosemont, and he published this experiment, he said that he and seven different people got checked in two separate psych hospitals in the nineteen sixties and. They had to be diagnosed I all of them said that they were hearing things. And soon as diagnosed and admitted, they all start acting normal they're all like, yeah, I am not crazy so i. The average stay for each person was nineteen days somewhere released within seven. Or the shortest seven, the longest fifty, two days. Where you're telling people, I'm not crazy as acting completely normal. Each person was like their constituency to leave was obligated to take antipsychotic mets and all but one person were diagnosed with schizophrenia in remission it was published in Science magazine in Nineteen seventy three and it was huge dude. Yeah. That's a big study. People started these big psych hospital reforms of bunch of closed due to misdiagnosis. A ton of people were released just because they were like these could be like misdiagnosis sending doctors and re diagnosed. Accurately. Diagnose everybody there was actually a hospital that reached out to Rosen Han and they were like, Hey, send people to us and. We'll find out the people that you send versus the ones that are actually crazy. So over the course of a couple of weeks, you get like one, hundred, ninety, three people to come in and they they're like forty one of them. These forty one people were with you and nineteen of those forty one people they outright said you were sent by Dr Rosen, Han, like you're fraud Kinda like you're you're working with his experiment. Okay. Rosenheim goes. No I didn't send anybody. So they're nineteen people like ten percent of these people that show up are just like you're a liar. Like what? Yeah now that does not help they're diagnosing. Yeah Right. So a lot of people thought that it was an ineffective experiment because they were like this is like if You were to drink blood. You get treated for peptic ulcer and they say, Oh, like a in you say, Oh, well, that's an incorrect. Diagnosis. I don't have a peptic ulcer though my stomach was full with blood and it's like what the fuck else do you expect without going under the knife kind of thing. So a lot of people were like this is a really like deceiving way of of running an experiment now. Yeah. Yeah. I see like if they were acting crazy they were actually acting crazy then yeah they'll be diagnosed as crazy Zak. Yeah that. Makes Sense I can see like the reform from it was great. Phenomenal. Great things I'm sure. Yeah I feel like the the more important part to focus on is not the diagnosis, but the length of time exact takes to be released. Yeah. So in two thousand, twelve haunt died and New New York Post journalist discovered that there's not enough evidence to conclude that the seven people existed. Yeah. So yeah, you told. Me earlier days last. Round out. So they only had evidence of one person, one other person they were like, yeah and said, he did this one other person said that they got checked in and they said that they had a very positive experience. He said there was no mistreatment overall. It was just a good experience and so she actually released a book called the great pretender. And discovers his colleagues. All believed him to be a bullshitter like everybody that worked with him at Stanford was like, yeah. This is like he would go into parties and everybody like he would change people's views on things just because he was a charismatic Asshole, I read that and I was. So angry. Yeah. What pressure your blood pressure taken bells God. Dude like his experiment like in obviously helped make some psycho hospitals more aware of what they were doing like. Yeah. Obviously you're not going to diagnose everybody correctly yes. This could have been an this can be seen as A. And I'm trying to think of the right word like it's it's unethical. YEA, it's. Like this yeah. But the fact that like it didn't even happen. Slightly infuriating and I believed it and did a lot of fucking notes on it and ritual Goddamn experiment and July. You son of a bitch if you weren't dead, I'd kill you. Like oh man I was so fucking mad because as I was doing the research for it I go in and I was like Bait Babe. Listen to this I'm telling my girlfriend like fucking spouting out all the shit about this cool experiment. She's like Ooh I might actually listened to this episode. And I was like yet who it's going to be bucking. Good. I'm excited. Not even ten minutes later like Sushi hops in the shower on Mike. Click and typing and I just stop like motherfucker yet mother fucker and I go open the door like bullpen the shower as like booking. She's like what? He's a fucking liar man do not talking about Your Dad oh triggered. There's a really big issue with that right now like there's a huge controversy in science magazines right now. So similar to that where basically a ton of people are lying about their studies like there's dude, he this is just the most recent one that I heard about he came up with this fantastic like amazing technology to make skin graphs. Like a new process to make skin grafts from other people be not rejected. So if you get burned, you can get a bunch of skin from other doesn't matter. So he proved this by transplanting skin onto rats as like. Is I like? Proof of concept I've heard something about this. I'm pretty sure I yelled at you about it at one point. But that's how this podcast word. Yes. Through just scream at each other about whatever we're passionate on. Yeah. So he builds up all this hype. He gets thousands of dollars in grant money. He has interns running like the studies with him. It's a huge thing he goes to present. He's on the way and he's sitting there and. Shit I'm a fraud Oh I don't have any evidence of this her open I do have this sharpie. So he sharpies a patch of skin. Onto a mouse and just make sure nobody gets close to it. And like he is published in. Two. Thousand Twelve Oh. Jeez. So many articles are so many journals covered him and it was this amazing thing and then one day one of his insurance was like. Smells like sharpen here. The fuck is on this mouse and he cleans it off some alcohol and Oh this dude I hopefully he's in prison I don't actually know Bailey though there's a huge problem where you know these are really early numbers but up to forty to sixty percent of scientific studies are not able to be reproduced recreated just because they're so fucking fraudulent because it's Either fraudulent or it? It's not a like consistent They're they're not taking all all the factors into consideration what the which is a huge issue. Yeah. When because in science if you're publishing a journal that's been peer reviewed that it should have already been recreated, it should have already been reproduced. It should have you should've it should've been done by peers multiple times like there's Some last here reviewed. But they're not the biggest thing that I love about these. Well ethical experiments that are actually being done is that when you release your findings, someone is supposed to take those findings and they do everything in their power to disprove what you say you've proven if they can't disprove what you've proven than your experiment is obviously. It. Just proving it. Then that starts to experiment and somebody says, Hey, how can we disprove this second dude and agree with the first? Yeah like it's supposed to. Have the checks and balances build it Oh, God. Checks now later. Like Oh, it's it's crazy and you know there are a lot of factors and a lot of scientific studies that. That people don't take into consideration like where we are at in the universe, the particles like, yeah of our positioning. Solar, system. Yeah stuff like that things that you wouldn't ever think to take into consideration like there were a bunch of medical tests or I can only think of one where you could basically check when a when a woman is leading like if you it's a blood test and like the album, it would foam up in a specific way and it wouldn't happen. yeah unless you're ovulating. and. That was the standard medical test for decades and has stopped working and they eventually figured out it was based on the radiation or something like that of where we were at hurling through the universe and that in a certain amount of time, we would come back through it and then it would work again, I'm that's crazy. That's crazy. But so I understand that there are things like that that can influence these tests but more than half of these tests potentially potentially fraudulent, and of course, you'll have fraudulent tests because there's money involved. There's a you know they're they're trying to get grant money. They're trying to get government money. They're trying to get patents on things because in the US if you invent something even if you're using tax money, you are allowed to patent that. So if you're working for pharmaceutical company and you say I'm GonNa, make this new brand of painkiller and you do and you get the patent on it and you start marketing it as this non addictive amazing painkiller. Suddenly there's a heroin epidemic because you patented opioid saw Jesus. Christ. Yeah. The system pretty broken especially in the US and the FDA takes forever to pass some things that have already like even if you've tested things. In therapies in different countries for decades and has been proven to be safe still has to go through the FDA which I understand you know say yeah. But at the same time, but at the same time, if it's already been done, it's been done. We should get that to save lives but I digress and who've onto a new topic but back to Ellie okay. So I. Just, a quick catch up. So she went to the boarding home for working women got kicked out. She's been taken to the hospital diagnosed sent on that ship and she was told you're going to Blackwell Island and insane place where you'll never get out of. Thank you so much to our patriots subscribers case aiming Facie Haley Dr Runner and Taty. toodle TATY doodles. He would shout out to you guys will catch you next week. Find us on instagram twitter at. points, pressure part to come and soon.

Nellie Nellie Brown New York reporter Nellie bly apple Patriots US Mrs Crane instagram editor Nelly I South Asia officer Aj Cuba fraud Puertas Bellevue hospital
The Meaning of Brand with Seth Farbman, Former CMO of Spotify (Part 2)

Marketing Trends

42:17 min | 1 year ago

The Meaning of Brand with Seth Farbman, Former CMO of Spotify (Part 2)

"I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to marketing trends and the Leeds Art Week Hello and welcome to marketing trends this is producer Ben Wilson this episode of marketing trends features part two of our interview of Seth Farman former former CMO of spotify and gap and current executive in residence at Yale University in part to seth talk about the future of audio how to combine data and storytelling retelling to create great content and what he's most excited for about the future of marketing enjoy marketing trends ends is created by the team at Michigan Dot Org sponsored by Salesforce Dot B. TO B. Marketing Automation on the world's number one crm. Are you ready to take your BB marketing to new heights with marketers can find nurture leads close more deals and maximize Roi learn more by visiting dot dot com slash podcast or click the Lincoln the show notes. Here's your host Ian Phase on you talked about the signal on the story before on future storytelling telling any and you touched on it a little bit. Is there another kind of takeaway that you would say from your spotify days signified like the difference between those two. Do things were how they play together. Yeah you know one of the things that I got a lot of joy and satisfaction out of was the the the creation of what turned into time capsule and the story goes like this we had a we bought a company called seed scientific and in the data scientists who started at random who's guiding him Adam bly he became our sort of central data and he you know he the sort of unenviable enviable task of putting Oliver date into one system and make it useful and make it useful for obviously for the product team so they could optimize product etc but also for the marketing team so that we tell stories in that accelerate growth but one of the problems that we added spotify man you know almost almost every technology company has this as you can get people to download an APP. You can get people to try. Maybe winds but getting them to get through your you're you actually even we all always think it's fantastic and getting them to display some other habit in their life to give the fourteenth APP to try like that part is hard and so engagement is really critical and the problem if you will is that what the magic of spotify spotify is most people in what we were sharing through our marketing. It's not available right way. We have no signal. We don't know what interested it. We don't know how you use or listen to music so we just promise you this magical experiencing show up and you're like what's here and it's a little bit of conundrum so I started to think how do we get over that and there's on boarding and you know you go through the usual things but I wondered if we could go back to human truths. I wondered if there was commonality in spite of where you grew up in spite of when you grew up that there it was a moment in time there's a moment in time that music was so important and became so ingrained that if I was able to flash back to that you'd be interested enough and so Adam bly he he got the team to look at this took awhile but sort of identified that again regardless of who you were where you are where you grew up what your age was that obviously sixteen seventeen years old the music that ad was I'll say popular the music you would have been exposed to during that time of your life. It's an it's a permanent imprint on your brain yes but also oh in your in your soul promotional being and that's a very simple thing then to treat her right. All I have after knows where you grew up easy and basically how old you are and even if I'm not delivering you personalized music or playlists your music from your seventeen year old self. If it was music from your seventeen year old selves existence it triggers install jet and there's enough of an itch. They're we all have it that you will engage in when you engage then of course you're pushing through bruce some of the barriers we we need you to push through how to create a playlist download all of these things that create them the stickiness that makes you realize what a what a valuable product is's in your life but we had to manufacture that in a sense and it was the data so you start with an idea and who's the data that gave us confidence to try it and then it was the data that came out of that experience that made us understand understand really what some of the triggers were to get people to give spotify a second or third or fourth chance and so out of that experiments airmen's we created a protocol time capsule that really just you know nicely packaged to that and you know when you're a big giant global company you're always having to think about works in Japan and what works in Brazil and are they the same thing and this was one that cut across everything but it was the the the mining of data led to a a really strong what what felt like individual narrative that could be delivered that created emotional resonance at created a connection felts like something you've never felt before major smile and it was those types of engagements that really drove future growth as well. You didn't have to convince somebody give something a try. After awhile you just relied very much on people's sharing that experience and sharing that joy and ends it would make it so much easier for people to engage and to stick with it and now you've got a you've got variety. You've got a positive flywheel and that's what you always hope for as a marketer. Did you double down on that on time capsule capsule with other types of like paid ads or billboards or anything like that were you. Were you trying to make sure that new listeners were familiar. Oh you know potentially new customers that would download the APP that were already. Were you priming the pump with like hey time capsules out there or is this just an in-app experience. time capsule was an experience but what we did is we took this learning and we applied it then to what you might think of as aquisition market so we didn't say check out time capsule and remember a wonderful days of in years. I don't know about you but I'm not going L. Back there a what we did is we were able to again. Get a a level or two lower so we had enough data obviously both first Party and third party to to Abba an ad that was featured a very specific artist list with a very specific song and we could make enough of these that even if we got it wrong we know that right the beauty of digital marketing these days itself optimizes just have to tell it what to do and so that was what that was how we employed this assist thinking specificity is so important and the beauty of digital marketing again is you could be super specific and completely miss but then there's another piece of content right behind that one and after a week or two if figure out which ones really draw people's imagination the nation and he got with it you know one of the big questions I think for a lot of companies that have such a large presence in an APP is that the CMO's like people yeah we get this K- kind of elaborates like you'd be surprised how small my budget was or something thing like that just because like we had such a massive reach. They're like we didn't do a lot of whatever out of home or we didn't do a lot of acquisition or or we did know brand stuff for whatever it is. What did it look like when you were there in terms of like advertising off the platform because obviously you're building a network for advertisers on the platform as well but what were you doing kind of externally to promote to new potential customers? I looked at it in in a few different ways. We had defined budget for what we call the artists marketing so when when artist had a big release we would spend our dollars both on and off platform to to help promote that release it was important because spotify a two sided marketplace. The artists are critically important the data that we provide to help them grow their careers better helps them figure out where they should go on tour who should open for them who they might work with partner with feature on their next album all sorts of things and also reminds people that that that this is where things happen on this platform the second area was it was really quite quantitatively driven performance marketing and we got very good at that we build some tools we borrowed some tools and we got quite good at that so we were able to make sure that the growth trajectory was was not too hot not too cold and then the third area was we've got to find a new word for brand but it was really to promote the experience and it was intended to connect spotify to culture and what I had different expectations ends of that budget it was it was significance but not this isn't p. and G. Money where you can knock over the head with hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars and suddenly they wake up one day and they decided their teeth aren't white enough we just we're not going to play that game and that's not a game that you play anyway but so the the challenge to the team and and we agencies out there but I just felt we could better do this on the inside so we we brought in some of the top creative talent and built a team internally and so my challenge to that team was was extreme creativity eighty was to push us forward to take risks one new creative who said I don't understand where the line is neither do i. We'll cross sit. We'll get the day they'll know where the line is will pull back just a little bit and I used to say it's your job to try to figure out how to get fi. Get fired as my jobs is just just push issue back a little bit so we had this level of experimentation because what I realized was what I wanted from that team wasn't going to get measured in subscriber growth lookin. MSU growth in you know LTV etc it was going to get measured by sort of the intangible all and what I would say to them is whatever we spend on on paid media. You've got to commit to three four five times as much in earns media and then I really measure that no they know that well they figured it out but it was the idea do that you you needed the the work to be so interesting that it did not feel like marketing and that people people would share it. The press would report on it would get picked up in social it would get shared by artists who their fans on platforms that weren't even hours and if they did that then we deemed that success because my view is that in time the tools that you use to create efficient effective performance marketing don't don't become differentiated. I get a tool than you get a tool. So when else gets a tool we all the same tools and if you really want to accelerate rates then you need to have something that somebody else doesn't have and that was the role of of some of the marketing that we talked about it was is creating an irrational belief in expectation love for spotify. It was an irrational self badging if you are a a spotify fan that says something about you said something different about you then. If you're an apple music or God forbid I've been an Amazon or Pandora Fan and just recognizing again the role that that music has in people's lives was just oh so valuable able and and should not have been overlooked and so we looked at the parts of marketing differently in what their outcomes should be we have we should measure them but we also believed that they were completely connected and you know relied right on each other in order to really give people a full sense. What's all did did you? Did you feel like you had a huge advantage with the fact that you were making the artists money you know one of my my good friends is is manages a number of artists and from what he was telling me and independent artists and he was telling me that like when those checks come in you know it's a a big deal right but you know you mentioned a number one that you're saying like you know you're partnering with artists on these music releases. It puts obviously like you know having them them. In certain playlists a huge deal to curation of that is a huge deal promoting their stuff as a huge deal. Did you feel like you had a huge advantage where you could promote spotify can indirectly by promoting those those things really like partnering with the artists on that or how did you view it. Yeah absolutely I had the advantage though is more in the how early on when Apple Music launch they were writing big checks remember launch drake. I don't even remember was we didn't have the money but what we did have going back to the beginning of our conversation as we had the fans and it became very clear at artists tests that the money's important but the money is how you count love artists won their music heard they want their fans to adore for them and if you want to have a number one track a number one album successful whatever you cannot do that without spotify you just can't mant so the advantage we had was scaled but also really that the depth and influence of a van base and so we had something very valuable to provide that was more than money and so the relationship with the artists then got got real. Oh got more meaningful because it did involve on platform off platform new marketing team at work closely but had you got to work very closely asleep with with content with the programming team because the programming team they were the ones you know they're the ones who pick the diamonds in the rough right. They're the ones ones they they just see it happening and part of it is data part of it is just again their intuition and so we always said you you bring us the artists you tell us why you're so excited we got in the room as marketers with the artists to hear themselves what the what their intentions were desires were and then we could create really meaningful work that was very different from from what the music industry itself with do which is sort of you know now available album released a pre traditional stuff and so you know what we are what we were offering artists certainly was was way too grow their fan base and what we would find. Is that the the the artists. Let's say we'd we'd create a billboard or something you know traditional offline who they would take a Selfie in front of their bill they would post it be millions of of Sherry's and likes and re tweets and what have you and so it. It really did help spotify but it's a funny thing. I've always believed that if you're if you're truly confidence company and you express yourself with confidence you tend to say less about yourself but you somehow get more credit back and I saw that happen entire time again in our relationship with artists you know when when the company shifted to podcasting or you know to adding podcasts I mean you know we obviously Veasley. Were podcast year were studio that has ever come back so as a super exciting frost and I think every single one of our podcastone spotify but you know there's some I I think terrestrial radio is eighteen billion dollars in revenue in the US alone. You have to think a large percentage of that of that music stuff is is going to go to to spotify and similar and from the podcast world. There's going to be a large percentage of that that that carries over was this something that was really exciting for you to see you know you've been on podcast before. Obviously you know all your on this. One is a very important medium as as we go forward but why was like spotify finally like we gotta do this and we gotta do it right. We looked at it for for a long time. Actually one of the interesting things about spot of is a culture and I think this comes from the Swedish roots is there's a lot of discussion a lot of conversation and those of us. Who are you know? SORTA came up through more American businesses. You're sometimes like wait are doing it or not doing it. Was that a decision. What are we doing but we had a lot of conversation Asian for a while but we delayed because we wanted to make sure that the core content type music was really getting all that the attention we need it right we we we're trying to sort of save the music industry from the very beginning but we had done a number of tasks? We did want to Germany where we took a known podcast from known talent. It's called FM and we promoted it on the platform platform. We promoted it off. Platform Marketing Team did a nice job in Germany and we saw like you know triple digit growth in almost no time so that just said okay at least Germans like podcasts and accept spotify as a destination but we really didn't didn't have the surfaces ride we didn't have discovery rights and so we spent the time to Kinda rebuild all the back end of the product to spotify podcasts when I go back to again is this discovery mechanism one of the problems uh-huh podcasts have had is okay. If I know the name of a podcast I can go find it if I if I know the topic I can find a lot a lot of them but what if I am interested in in an individual and I want to search every podcast that may have mentioned or interviewed or referenced whatever this person you can't do it and and because of the early stages is of being able to tag an index podcast it's so long of a of a of a content type and so fragmented it. It just took some time to really figure out if we had a solution for it once we did and it's being you know everything's always in motion nothing he's built. Everything's in process of being built all the time we saw that that was the deal sort of you. Second content type for audio deep consumption creates habits. Yes super important. There's a sense of new release new newness of releases at greater frequency where music artists might be once twice a ear the longer sessions would allow us to either monetize better. If it's on the you know the advertising side or just have a sense of greater value. If you're a subscriber it became pretty clear that this was going to be the next big bed for the company and as you know there towards the beginning of this year the company closed on. I'm on a couple of acquisitions. That'll hell SORTA speed that process up but this is to me this is critical because the the Internet Internet and these platforms that we all enjoy our either user generated lower quality content that then you have to clean up and curate or their professionally created which means that you've sort of high cost associated with that content and podcast is somewhere of mix where you know the ability. I mean you and I are talking. I'm in my office. You're in yours. We've got a microphone microphone got a computer and we have an easy way to connect like the cost of creating valuable content is so much lower. You're so now you can expand the library so much faster and covers so many topics and that has it's got to have a positive effect on people's desire to discover yeah I mean we obviously were surely bullish on it because we avenue our podcast but yeah I mean I think one of the things that we talk about a lot is that this is really the best to be marketing tool on the planet I mean we fight and scrap scrap and do all these things to try to get in front of you know specifically on the BBC side buyers and get their attention in a value added weight in a meaningful way for those those people meanwhile you know people who listen to podcasts which that number is exponential us. I think it's doubled every year for the past ten years essentially or every two years for the past ten years essentially and now a spotify going all in I mean we're pretty much geared towards like getting close to one hundred percent of the population is going to be listening to podcasts. Ask the not too distant future. You're talking about people who spend hours a week with extremely curated conversations around topics topics that they're interested in either personally professionally like it is augmented reality it is it is something that you can do what you were on the go so in your car at the gym you know doing dishes walking the dog. Doing whatever that is screen Lewis. You can be out in the outdoors. You can do all sorts of different things it just kind of seemed so silly that the market was like Whoa podcasts were big back in like oh seven but you know didn't really see the use case. It's Kinda just like look at the entire radio industry for the past fifty years like don't you think that's GonNa come online and on demand it just kind of seemed to obviously think get that sentiment was there. You know spotify while you were there. One hundred percent I mean when people would ask about what is the future of audio. What is the future music? Daniel would point to radio. You just can't kill it right. There is so much money because so much value still in radio oh which has almost no innovation in the last hundred years right and the key is I think what you just said like what could video and clearly clearly video the more senses that you engage the sort of more sort of robust your storytelling can be and people engage with more but but it requires you to pay attention it requires your full attention and audio by very nature. It's it's seeps into your mind. It makes you makes you engage your mind so it does have there's lots of attention that comes through audio but it also allows you to do these other things and you know the real competition for everyone companies and individuals the competition is is for attention. It's for time and being able to play in the background it opens up shy and windows of opportunity for audio. I companies and we we see it with music. We've seen with news and podcast your point are they're. They're they're incredibly useful but they're also somewhat reassuring and calming you know the thing about radios you love. Dj and podcast have that same. You know you just you're connecting with the people and they become part of your life. That's not going to go away so we'll have to figure out the format. There's you know there's still business models to be determined. There's there's better ways of doing the advertising all of these things but but per all of time you know the power of audio. It's just a cannot be disputed disputed and it's not going away. If you look at where technology's going you might suggest that the the days of the eyeball are over and I guess Spike Jones got it right you. You know well you know. I think it's also interesting that people tend to be selective with with certain things where where it's like you know everything is pivot to video and again video is going. It is huge now. It's going to be huge. It's been huge for against huge for fifty years like look at TV. The way see that video is is going to play out is going to be different but I just think it's interesting because you look it apple spending billions of dollars on Air Pods V. One you look look at the investments from Amazon and Google on Google home and Alexa you look at all of this stuff that is geared towards audio and you you know we recently did an interview with the CTO of of NIANTIC labs. the type stuff that you know that company particularly focused on augmented reality and you just look at like how you can tell stories with if you believe in you know the rise of all of this audio technology making it better air pods. I don't want to overstate it but like they really are a brilliant piece of technology that it's amazing that this is like V. One of these I think is the most successful successful apples accessory I think ever at this point could be wrong in that but I'm pretty sure it's it's been extremely successful you you know that you know that that's the tip of the sword when a company like apple annoys the living hell out of most of its customers by I essentially forcing you to use air pods right. We complained bitterly about the lightning adapter all of it. They were one hundred percent right and it's very intentional. It's very intentional. They're they're willing to risk that level of annoyance so that we are are in some ways forced to adopt in an entirely new future where we are always connected through our here's it's it's none of that's accidental yeah and I you know I just look at the things of how creators can create audio co content. I think this is like the absolute very beginning of all of this and I'm curious to your thoughts like if you're a creator as you said the barriers to entry are lower than ever before the barriers to getting heard are maybe more difficult than ever before but at least it a certain level control your own destiny a little bit better than you used to by having to go to a lot of intermediaries that just simply isn't the case and high quality content now now and creators that can find a place to help them cry like to add value to the content to add value to that professionalism that you talked about is really the exciting and it's something like you know we were obsessed about emission but it should for creators out there you know our CEO Chatter writer. It's a lot of our stuff. Is We want to be creators. He's your Creator I for a lot of this and it's just an exciting time like what a brilliant would agree town to be alive here when you have these type of technologies that are exponential like you. You don't need to be exponential because the technology because spotify reaches you know over whatever hundreds of millions of people and that's just it's a great place to be. I think yeah and I think that the quality of podcast will obviously continue to evolve and improve you know I was. I was incredibly impressed with daily as an example so you know we're we're we're still in early days here and many new formats kind of pick up on formats of old all right. TV was radio with pictures a while so I think we're just at the beginning of a really of an exciting time for recreate ors and for creativity seventy and then look the beauty of software I come back to it is that you can find an audience or almost any well thought through and well produced or decently produced idea through some of the you know the massive platforms spotify you yeah no longer are limited by three TV channels ten. FM stations a fragmented Internet search which you now are able to have content find you and it'd be meaningful at scale when you are now of platforms as you say with hundreds of millions or even billions of people in one place you you know what if you've got a decent podcast. I'm sure that a couple of million of them will be interested in what you have to say so you recently left spotify. You actually broke news. Everybody covered it. I imagine that was pretty weird that you were covered so sensitively offensively that you were leaving you know a lot of people throwing around shakeups and all this sort of stuff. I'm just you know I wanNA know what's next for for Seth obviously were a huge fans. What you're doing yell is really exciting? Were excited to follow along but yet what what's next. What are you excited about what it what does the future hold you know I I hi decided I decided to really commit to spending a year without needing to make a decision? I'm lucky that we've been able to do that and so you know what I've been doing is is really exploring some of my passions and whether whether that turns into another C. Suite role whether that turns into starting a company or something that I haven't yet figured out. I don't know I'm against pushing it off but but I've been deeply exploring my route so I've gone back to journalism. I've been trying to understand how to apply what I learned at spotify how to Tak- Gotcha how to take a content that people are unwilling to pay for and reminding them of the value and how to apply that's a journalism. I've been spending time in that space loving it. I've been very interested for many many years in sustainability in the food system and to create a better health for people through Joe's they make so I've been looking at a number of companies investing in some and I'm trying to find Is there a sort of a more robust path myself there and then staying very open to serendipity. It's it's hard to be patient. It's it's hard to not. Try to kind of drive your next chapter sort of conditioned to do that but I've been leaning back but I do know this. I I know that there are too many fascinating transformations happening right now I will choose one and then you know get in with full force and try to create magic just like we were able to Joe at spotify and that sort of an end of the year plan and for now it's almost summer. I'm going to have a summer of memories and fully enjoy the luxury war time off will if if any of any of your at your startups WanNa share what the Ron we would. We'd love to to promote those folks. Obviously you know where startup we start up so anytime. You need to give them some love. It just distraught me line before we get out of here. You've been extremely generous with your time. This has been absolutely awesome. We just want to do a quick. Lightning round some fast easy questions since thanks to our good friends at pot fast and easy questions that only you can answer. You don't know what's coming. Are you ready share number one favorite vacation spot. That's a tough one but I would say provence provence absolutely beautiful wood about what apper using on your phone own that is the most fun besides spotify because that'd be cheating cheating but it would also be true so I've been using medium quite a bit. It's become a daily habit for me. I suggest you you tried to say Oh yeah. I mean so we I think were I don't know where Herat in the rankings now we were number. One for a while is a pivotal moment in our company's history won't be passed the economist for more. We're like well did a hundred Jordan like whatever forty year head start as pretty crazy but I think we're like third biggest publication right now but we've been on medium for for a long time and just encourage our listeners owners. Check it out how which favorite this this might be too. I don't know if we can do this one but do you have favorite playlist I do you. I've got a summer road trip playlist that I really just took liberally from other summer road trip playlists and our son is thirteen years old now he and I for the last six years have gone away for a week or two. Just the two of us is my wife's favorite week week and it's the two of us in Old Land Rover with camping year and our mountain bikes and we wandered together without destination the nation in mind and you know the music on playlist is just the most special to me because obviously the moments we have together. That's awesome. Favorite Booker were podcast that you've read or listened to recently well. I'm a I'm rereading. You're going to theme gear. I'm rereading Zen and the art the motorcycle maintenance. Oh there you go. It's really remarkable. I hadn't read it. I don't know probably in ten years or so. It's but it's one of those I go back to time and time again and I'm about two thirds of the way through how about ad campaign that you've seen recently that you're most envious of you know I I can't help but feel something when with the Nike cabinet spot and you know here you had a company that had been going through tons of turmoil and internally and a brand that seemed to have lost ground on the audit us and I feel like with with one brave swing it really reminded us of the power of sport and the power of sort of human belief totally agree. What are you most excited about for the future marketing a I'm excited I'm excited about our the depth of learning that we have through all of the digital data that we're acquiring? I'm excited to be able to put to rest eventually. The question of the value of marketing and I'm excited cited to be able to return without apology to the original purpose of marketing which is to let people dream and to give people hope and to help them really identify what's important to them in their lives and that's been let's take a hit in the last few years as we've really given all of our attention to just a couple blah platforms who really haven't served. I think the customer let alone the mark they should. What is your best I advice for first time? CMO You know just ask the questions. Don't give the answer's don't be afraid of lack of knowledge very vulnerable. Just hire really really good people in the wrestle. Take itself. What question do you never get asked that I did not ask you today that you wish you were asked more often well how I can be such devoted Philadelphia Sports Fan when I've been disappointed my entire life oh man that's you're talking to a in Oakland Oakland a's Oakland raiders fan so I am I am right there with you? How can you stay? She said she voted Philadelphia Fan. You know how there's always next year. There is always next year. Seth has been absolutely awesome anything to plug anything anything anything. Our listeners should check out well. I just joined the board of Dash Lane. I absolutely think people check out dash land. I feel like we're at an credibly important time where the Internet's getting more difficult to use and it's also feeling a lot less safe and we're starting to realize how important it is that we have control gulliver on data and so I joined the company to to help cross that chasm because I think this is incredibly important if we don't address these things if we don't give ownership ownership of our own data back to people than we're going to just see more trouble ahead so I would absolutely encourage people to learn how free it can be yeah. Live your best life online with dash lane the safe simple way to store and fill passwords and personal formation. I'm going to check it out. That's awesome yeah. Maybe we'll well Lincoln linked up with another mission podcasts like. It visionary smersh daily set your extremely generous with your time we really appreciate having you on and this is just an absolutely awesome episode so thanks so much absolutely I enjoyed spending time with you. Thanks for listening to this episode of Marketing Trans Marketing Trans is created by the team at mission dot. Org and sponsored by salesforce part world-class marketers use part ought ought to generate and nurture leads close more deals and maximize Roi every stage

spotify Seth Farman Salesforce apple Adam bly Alec Baldwin Ian Phase Yale University B. Marketing Automation MSU Japan Sherry US Dash Lane Philadelphia bruce BBC Amazon
GSMC Book Review Podcast Episode 256: Interview with Lydia Kang

GSMC Book Review Podcast

1:09:41 hr | 3 d ago

GSMC Book Review Podcast Episode 256: Interview with Lydia Kang

"Well hello there it is. Sarah hosted the GMC Book Review Podcast, which is about to start in just a couple of minutes. Before we start I would once again like to talk to you about linens and Hutch and they're amazing betting and the amazing deal they have going on. For that bedding right now, as I've said before if you go to linens and Hutch dot com and use the Promo Code G. S MC book during check out, you will get seventy percent off of their entire website plus free shipping. That's pretty amazing. Seventy percent off and free shipping on all of their sheet sets, which includes some fabulous bamboo sheet sets all of their reversible down alternative comforters, their quilts, their quilts are beautiful, very simple, very classic. All their colors are very classic I think if you are looking for some new bedding, this is definitely the opportunity to go and check this out and get a great deal. If you're thinking about Christmas presents, this is a great ta this is a great deal. So go to linens and Hutch dot com check out their amazing supply, and you will receive seventy percent off plus free shipping when you use the Promo Code G. S. MC book at checkout. Golden state media concepts bring you book review podcast I haven for bookworm of all ages and the widest genres from mystery to memoirs romance to Comedy Fantasy to Scifi. If you love to read, this is a podcast free. It's the golden state media concepts book. Review podcast. Low and welcome to the. Book. Review podcast brought to you by the GMC podcast network I am your host Sarah Welcome back to Sarah is behind and trying to catch up. I. Let's see updates I did go to urgent care last night I. Know You've been just dying to know I did go to urgent care. I do have a sinus infection and as it often does sinus infection brought its little friend bronchitis to play. So ea for that as usual when I am feeling like this, I will apologize for any heavy breathing that I might do during my speaking parts of the episode I do not have covert Harry Hurry because of my symptoms they did do a rapid test which was not surprising so I got A. Cotton Swab shoved into my brain actually wasn't that bad i. just when it started to get to the point I was like, wow, how much are they going to go? It was over and then I just felt like I needed to sneeze for several minutes so not bad when I talk to my mom after a went I talked to my mom today and I was telling her about it and I said instead of cotton swab a q tip. And she thought I said Teacup. They show how and why did they shove a teacup up you're. I was like, Oh, I don't know Netti. Pot is kind of like a teapot and I use that often So yeah, you gotTa love bad cell reception when you`re Trying to tell a story. So I did not in fact, get a teacup shoved up my nose I did in fact, get a cotton swab shoved up there and rapid test came back negative. So it was a good trip to the urgent care despite you know coming home with sinus infection bronchitis but pretty much already knew that I had a sinus infection and bronchitis was definite possibility. So enough about that. Let's talk about books today as I mentioned in the end of the last episode, I am speaking with King author of opium and absent. That's her most recent novel. There are two other novels as I mentioned also in the end ls episode that are. These are all standalone novels, but they have characters in common or or common threads they take place in in different eras. So not not necessarily characters and common, but definitely, some Some crossover aspects the other two are the impossible girl which takes place in the eighteen sixties eighteen fifties shoot. I can't remember now and a beautiful poison which takes place in nineteen eighteen. I have since listened to both of those on audio book and they are very interesting as well. open opium and absent the one that takes place in the middle of those do it's set in eighteen, ninety nine. Now, I will say that beautiful poison was a little weird to read for me because It. It takes place during the Spanish the Spanish flu right and so there are signs about wearing masks in there are all these the the stuff going on that very much reflects what's going on today and it was a little strange. You know it's kind of like It's the best time to be reading this particular book but. I enjoyed both my mom has since read all three and so we've had some good discussions on that but we are mainly here to talk about opium and absent as that is the newest book and the description of that book is as follows new. York. City eighteen ninety-nine. Tilly pembroke sister lies dead her body drained of blood and with two puncture wounds on her neck Bram stoker's a new novel. Dracula has just been published Antilles imagination leaps to the impossible. The murderer is a vampire. But it can't be. Can it? A ravenous reader and researcher till he has something of an addiction to truth and she won't rest until she unravels the mystery of her sister's death. Unfortunately tilles addicted to more than just truth to ease the pain from a recent injury she's taking more and more laudanum and some in her immediate circle are happy to keep her well-supplied. Till he can't bring herself to believe Vampires exist. But with these derek hysteria surrounding her sister's death, the continued vamp vampiric slayings and the opium swirling through her body it's becoming increasingly difficult for a girl who relies on facts and figures to know what's real or whether she can trust those closest to her. So that is the description of opium and absent. It is pretty obvious where the opium part of the title comes from. You'll have to listen to the episode to hear more about the absence part of that title. I. Love that Lydia took a specific time eighteen ninety-nine right before the turn of the century a specific fact about that time that Bram Stoker's Dracula had just come out and kind of woven into her. Her. Her narrative and we talk a little bit about that in the book. So You have these vampiric slayings and tilly is. Rationally she doesn't think that. It's a vampire right but she's also addicted to opium taking a lot of laudanum and that is not helping her cognitive la logical brain to sort through this. So there's that aspect there's the you know she's trying to figure out what really happened to her sister. So you have that mystery you have three women living in a house to live with her mother and her grandmother. Before obviously for her sister died, she was living there. So it's a house houseful of women, and in this time period that in some very specific roles but they are very strong opinionated impassioned women. They just happen to live in a time where you have to use those skills a little differently than you might in another time period. So let's go ahead and turn now to the interview with Lydia. So she can talk more about her book again, it is opium and absent, and the author is Lydia Cain. Let's turn now to that interview. Lydia welcome to the PODCAST. Hi thanks for having me. I am very happy to have you here today We are here to talk about your new novel. It's called opium an absence before we get to the book though if you could share a bit about yourself, that would be wonderful. Sure. So I am an offer of adult historical mystery opium absence of my most recent one I also written the impossible girl and a beautiful poison right young adult fiction including the November girl toxic and control and I also right nonfiction. So my are my most recent book that I have co written with a friend of mine and journalists. Nate Peterson is quackery a brief history of the worst ways to cure everything that came out in two thousand seventeen with Workman Publishing I am also a physician. So I work at the University of Nebraska Medical Center grass medicine in internal medicine, primary care, and I've been doing that for quite some time I think I've been in practice for. About twenty years now and I live with my family in mid. What? We're we're not here to talk about the book quackery, but actually that sounds fascinating. I would I don't -magine? I can only imagine I mean I know some of the things that have been tried and use throughout the years but I can only imagine what you have included. Yeah. Well, you know quackery has Basically talks about all these really strange things that we used to do to take care of ourselves in the name of good medicine that in retrospect are just terrible terrible ideas. So things like lobotomies and using Leeches to help cure melancholy and doing things like blood leading for a fever. So all those things that you know you've maybe seen in the movies or read about here, and there we talk about all the things and interestingly I actually got a lot of information from that book for my fiction. So it's coming really handy. All that research is like really peppered its way into a Lotta my circle fiction because time periods do overlap quite a bit. I was just going to say, yeah, that that sounds like it would have been very helpful because there's a lot of. medically related things in opium an absent that we would look questionably upon today. Absolutely. Yeah and a lot of that came from my research for sure. Yeah. So give a brief overview of opium an absence. So opium and absence. Takes Place Eighteen ninety nine right before the turn of last century. And it around the main character named Tilly pembroke or Matilda pembroke and Chile is this young lady very curious like she's Kinda. She's the Kinda girl who would then twenty four hours on Wikipedia just going from article to article reading about everything because she's inherently incredibly curious about the world and how it works. and. She's socially awkward and She's the second daughter in this very, very wealthy New York family and When we open up the book, she is actually trying to do some writing out monkey island and has a terrible accident and she breaks her collarbone. And as she sort of just barely recovering from the break she's told that her sister went missing the same day that she went writing and It turns out her sister is found murdered In. in the shadows of the Metropolitan Museum of art and she has to puncture holes in her neck and was completely drained of blood. So. It looks like a vampire slaying, which is so strange and that year eighteen ninety nine was actually when Bram Stoker's Dracula was released in the United States and so people were sort of thinking about vampires. It was it was kind of Kind of not trendy but you know people are reading about it and to Chile, is left with this question of what or who killed my sister and how can we stop them and as she's recovering from her her bone break she becomes increasingly dependent on opium and morphine to soothe her pain. But also really she uses it in a way to sort of Numb a lot of her grief and she's dealing with this This opiate addiction as she's trying to uncover you know the truth about what happened to her sister all while. Dealing with the confines of being a young woman at the turn of the century who really has very, she might be very wealthy and privileged, but she also very much restricted. So she doesn't list the health of a newsy. That there might be some romance going on. She's not really sure what's going on there and these little newsy kids that also she befriends. So it's it's a, it's a fun sort of romping story. From a long way back that includes a lot of history. As people and real world events that happened at the time. Yes. And I have so many follow up questions I actually not quite sure. Let's start with the timeframe. So eighteen, ninety, nine, and. Was Your did you start with that timeframe or did you kind of start from the perspective of the Year Dracula was released? Where did you? Where did you start in this process to to create this the story in the time that in? So that's really really good question and it's like it's actually a question that I like to ask other historical fiction authors to about like why did you pick this time period because you know there's a lot of fiction that takes place in World War. Two. It's very obvious place to start because there's so much going on I'm so many stories that can be told during that time for me I mentioned that I'd been inspired by what happened with research quackery and one of the things that I had research time with. Interest. I was responsible for writing the chapter on opium and all the ways that opium has been used to treat a lot of medical problems. opium really shouldn't be treated because you know it's a painkiller and it's addictive and has some terrible side effects. But. I was doing the research I found out that number one the hypodermic syringe was invented in the mid eighteen hundreds and that to once they had isolated morphine and we're using more seen for injection a lot of times that it was being given to people not really for the best reasons. But interestingly, the people who could afford to do morphine injections Tennessee to be very wealthy because these. syringe kits where these hand blown glass metal contraptions and these beautiful walnut cases, and you had to be pretty wealthy to be able to afford injectable morphine, and oftentimes there were these women who were being over medicated because of what was called to Stereo, at the time, which was the sort of catchphrase term for you know what they called women who had problems with their nerves or anxiety or? Any kind of problems in their in their body, they would sort of blame it on hysteria and which comes from You know the worst for historic you know the the womb, basically the uterus and like years basically wasn't behaving itself well, so people would actually treat them with things like morphine. So. Sorry. There was a there's a fabulous line that that tilly quotes about her her womb running around insider creating mischief or something along those lines. He read in a book. Yes, and that that is that's taken almost directly from. The research on hysteria which is that people thought that the womb was this wandering Oregon and a women's body, and if you didn't pin it down and it didn't sit there and behave, it would cause all sorts of mischief and so throughout time people would think well, know if I just like here's how you can tell you know the wounded causing problems or or how to deal with a wandering wound causing problems you put bad. Smelling things up by women's knows will chase the moon back down to where it's supposed to be or you. You can tempt them to go back into place by putting you know pleasant smelling things down by her another region. It's just unbelievable some of the things that they were attributable to the wandering room problem and so that's why Tilles says that because she's heard about it and she thinks it's ridiculous because she's a very sexual. Factually based person she likes to think in terms of what's real and what isn't, and she likes to do her research and so when someone we know when her doctor sort of like yeah. This is a case hysteria when she behaved badly she's like my womb is not wondering cussing. And of course, her exclamation basically by an injection of morphine in her leg because she's not behaving well. Yeah. Yeah and I mean we could spend multiple podcasts just talking about hysteria and the ways it was treated and. Some. Interesting things that came out of the way that was treated I mean, there's a lot we could cover. because it's a fascinating topic but. Yeah. It was fascinating and I think like you know for in terms of the story, you know I kind of hooked onto that as a means of showing readers like this is how women were controlled that then you know sometimes they were controlled pharmacologically. Controlled in a lot of different ways. But it was around that time that you know women started to look for more independence they were working more. They were getting outside of the House and it's interesting that sort of hysteria thing kind of was coinciding with also trying to tamp down the power that they were realizing that they had and. That was something that you see in tilly she starts to become a lot more brave about questioning the world around her like why is it that they're all these poor children who have to work for living why is it that I had so much money and other people don't so So it's interesting sort of clash between her wanting to. Exercise. Her ability to think through things and the people around who are trying to keep her oppressed. A duty to jump in here and take our first break of the podcast. But when we come back Leeann, I will be talking more about the roles of women and women's sort of place or sphere in this particular society in this particular era. So stay tuned, you're listening to the GMC Book Review Podcast and I will be right back. Are. You tired of the same news are you sick of the seemingly endless political spin? Negatively the Diaz Mc America's still beautiful podcast is a weekly newspaper gasped hovering all the positive and uplifting news stories. We cover stories that will inspire uplift and remind you love the good in the world tune into the golden state media concepts. America's still beautiful podcast to get all the great and positive news stories of today download the MC America's still beautiful podcast on itunes stitcher soundcloud Google play or anywhere. You're podcast just tight DIAZ MC in the search bar. Ask. Welcome back to the DMC book review podcast before the Break Lydia and I were speaking about. Women, and. They functioned and or were controlled in this particular time in society, and so we're going to pick up more on that conversation as we get back into the interview. It brings up more conversations and questions about women's roles at that time because she is surrounded by women with her. Her sister dies early in the book but you know she has her sister, her mother and her grandmother and her mother, and her grandmother are very strong women but they had the same confidence they have to act within the sphere in which. They reside. So you get this whole interesting how all the power dynamics that go on their family, but still within the context of being a woman in this time. Right absolutely, and you know they have they are working by the rules. by which they were raised and that they have to live by you know survival for women was was difficult and if you were wealthy, it was all about. Well, how am I going to continue to be able to take care of myself? How am I going to make sure that I you know my own daughters are going to be okay and so a lot of this was cruel the way that they treated her but they were also very much incerned in the survival of their species Mr viable of their family lineage. Let's talk a little bit more about tilly as the main character She's very the the book starts with her writing a letter to Nellie bly reporter at the time, and you get a very good idea of personality in that letter because one of the main thing she wants to know is how smelly elephants basically. I know I. It's so funny I. It just randomly came out of nowhere. 'cause you know we've written this big article on elephants in the circus. And and I thought well, you know chilly read that article what would you come away with and she'd be like, why WanNa know more I want to know everything like what's it actually like to be there with the elephants and so that letter with the letter that Tilly wrote l. e. y. were very easy to write because they were just. Just really playing on that sort of curiosity affect that she has and she just cannot suppress. Right. But they also show her progression as a character because in the beginning, you can tell she's very curious but also not like she's very smart she's Donald she asked a lot of questions, but she's not maybe not the the most aware of the world. As a whole and an as her the book was on and and her letters go on and you can see how she's becoming more aware of. The realities of the world around her Yes exactly. It's sort of this catch twenty two, the more you learn about the world the more you realize that it's incredibly imperfect and so she wasn't a. Very protective bubble and she she breaks through that that ear as you said, and their consequences to that you know being aware of these things brings pain and also responsibility. Yeah. So. What about tilly do think is. Maybe going to resonate with readers. I think I think Tilles, a very modern character and a lot of ways I. think that people are going to see a lot of themselves until he in that The kind of. Exploratory journey that she goes on I think is something that everybody goes through at some point in time you are a sheltered innocent young person and the more you learn about the world the more you realize there's a lot of ugliness out there but you also become curious about about things and you question things and it's part of the entire process of becoming an independent functional adult. You know is really questioning authority being able to practice your own authority and being able to question why are things the way that they are why? why are things done in such a way that you know some people are Are just really at the short end of the chicken cannot be fixed or you know why is it that I have to dress this way and you know act this way in public every every aspect of her entire existence comes into question and I think a lot of people see that sells and then because they went through a lot of the same things as they became adults, you know some people I think do really fall into they just WanNa, live exactly the same lives that They were brought up to believe is the way things should be, but I don't think anybody does that and doesn't question at some point in time like does have to be this way can do things differently, and if I do on, you know what are what are my terms and this is tilley just trying to figure out what are the terms of her existence in how she wants to do things and she's been told very very clearly this. Is How you have to do it and she you know at some point in time, she has to sign GonNa, put my foot down and decide I'm GonNa, live my life the way that I want to or or not. Am I going to take a safer road and be unhappy or am I gonNa take that the freer road and and risk everything and it's a it's a question I think a lot of people have to deal with. That's One thing that I. Loved about the book was multiple genres that are present in it. You get historical fiction you get women's literature there's. There's a bit of a paranormal aspect or supernatural in it. You GET LITERARY FICTION BECAUSE DRACULA PAID A huge part in the book. The BOOK DRACULA NOT DRACULA HIMSELF. Did you set out to write a novel that that crossed Multiple Genres or did it just sort of come come about as you wrote? It just it of came about as you wrote, and that occurs to me that he didn't actually answer your earlier question about how did I pick eighteen, ninety nine so So going back to that question, which will hopefully enter this one as well So when I was doing the research and learning about morphine and These young wealthy women who are being who are becoming morphine addicts on in the late eighteen hundreds I knew that I was going to write a character that was going through this. Situation because I thought it would be a really interesting lens on today sort showing how You know opioid addiction isn't always thought of as oh. There's terrible people out there who are like abusing drugs and you know they're they're morally corrupt and that sort of thing and I wanted people to see like no it really can happen to anybody Actually you'd be with you would be surprised that it happened to happen to these rich white ladies in the late eighteen hundred. So I, knew I needed to pick that period of time. And One of my one of my kids is super into musical and she was listening to the newsies soundtrack all the time, and so I was listening to it and I was sort of getting interested in the story and I said Oh well. Did this newsies strike happened? Exactly you know how fun would it be if I included you know some newsies in my story. So I went into wikipedia and I looked it up and it turns out. You know the newsy strike happened in eighteen, ninety nine. So then I thought well, it's the right time period it would fit in with you know where other books are, and so I started looking at what else happened in eighteen ninety nine. That's interesting like what else could I put into my book and looking through the timeline of events in eighteen ninety nine there's like this one little line that says Bram Stoker's Dracula is released in in the United States. and I thought Oh my gosh perfect and I thought what if? The murder mystery surrounds that is vampire like, but you know actually know the truly vampire not and somehow the new these are helpful and trying to figure out the story because there's news and Paul, and then I was looking into Nellie bly and she was sort of just packed her heyday I. Think in her career shoe sorta still around and I thought this mush need a book. GonNa make it happen somehow and so that's how it came to be that. All these various. John Ras kind of much together into a story that you know. In the beginning I was like I don't know if he's going to work but somehow somehow it did. Nice Yeah. That's. That's really fun I. Mean just the fact that you could kind of tie all of those things together that might seem fairly disparate. One thing that. Is An interesting is not only is tilley addicted to laudanum in the morphine but. She's also obsessed with the Book Dracula and those things kind of combined because one of the side effect of the Laudanum is that it can cause increased paranoia or I don't WanNa say hallucinations but Just. More vivid imagination or or trying to you know make sense of things. It might not make sense and so she's she's very curious but she's also. Under the influence of. The opium. Right? Yeah. Absolutely. I mean You know opiates if you're not using them correctly or they're too strong, can can induce offensive before and definitely caused your ability. Your consciousness becomes alter. You can get sleepy or or sort of just more woozy on it, and that sort of thing, and it can affect the way that you think results that, and we see that multiple times in the book where she's under the influence and she's really just not like acting like her normal self And I don't want to you know give the impression that that was one of the reasons why she was able to solve the mystery of it was really the opposite. It was like the bite her addiction she still managed to get the answers that she needed to probably might have gotten there earlier she had been on the medication But. Yeah. You know I one thing that people. Who are? Writing Books and stories and stuff like that will we'll say over and over again. Is Like we sorta throw the kitchen sink at our main character sometimes like we really put them through the ringer and we do not make things easy on them and I did that I wasn't very nice until I really just. I wrecked her life and multiple multiple wave and I and I just put obstacles Left and right that she had to get through because. Everybody knows you know story that goes smoothly and perfectly for the main character is not really terribly fighting to read and so So I wasn't during her I did I did make her really fight through a lot of things to get the answers you're looking for. You're so mean. I, but I am we all are terribly. So you did a lot of research for the book obviously are there any sort of autobiographical elements within the book? I would say I there's a lot of tilly that is very similar to me and to my husband and my kids like we're all we all tend to be pretty curious people But we are the kind of people who were like if we're on a walk somewhere and you know a caterpillars like crossing. The trail we will all stop and get down on our knees and we'll be like. The Caterpillar trying to pieces it is, and where's it going to be saved and you know are the hairs on the Caterpillar GonNa, make us break out in a rash if touch it so we we will sort of Get completely. Entrenched, with the natural world around us and Applebee's questions like what what is it? We're going with what's going on where where's it from what species is. And that's there's a lot of that until like on the first page I think like think it's roderick her her groomsmen the. The. The groom at the stable excuse you sort of like, yeah. You'll like spend hours like just like watching ant hills and like you know you, you've gotta get together and Act Lady and I just sort of laughed at that when I wrote it because I was like, yeah, that's like my family that's like what we do. So there's a lot of us in her that natural curiosity about the natural world that we put in there. I love that because now I have this image in my head of being out for a walk and rounding a corner and finding a an entire family like down on their hands and knees rear ends in the airs. Ring. Intently, in the ground and being like I have no idea what's going on here Yeah exactly. But but I I I love that you can. You're you're all curious. So it's not just like you and your husband or curious and your house and your children they're rolling their eyes going good Lord here they go again. Now, it's like it's pretty much most of us and like we have different variations on where our curiosity will pull up too. But but yeah no, we're all like we all are nature lovers and I'm just curious people who like to ask questions about things. So yeah. So that wasn't too hard that wasn't a very far stretch for us I don't think. I wanted to ask about the cover ours because it is beautiful Did you have any any real say in the cover art or? I'm never sure how that always how that all works with Publishing and cover ours authors. Yes. Oh. The cover you know the how much input author has over the cover really varies from publisher to publisher and I have been extremely lucky in that. My Publisher Lake Union has always Had me be very very involved in the process. I'm just so lucky like early on when the book sort of being worked on they'll send me You know like a form to fill out that says, show us a bunch of covers that you really like what elements do you want on the cover what kind of colors are you thinking you thinking like a person's face or images or do you want like the words to be a certain way? So they get I get a lot of input upfront. And then as they start putting mockups together They ask for my feedback just sort like every step of the way, and so I think I had said pretty early like it would be great to have opium poppies on the cover because they're beautiful of flowers. But then they're directly related to the story I said, you know maybe maybe an absent bottle or at least an absence Dune which is like a really beautiful. It's part of the story and they're gorgeous dunes and I thought that was really cool to and so when the story when they started putting the the. The cover together. I also had mentioned like you know a beautiful poison has a very black and gold cover and the impossible girl has a very sort of Crimson and public cover. So I said, let's go in the green direction because maybe green and register just to the covers all kind of stand out for each other and and they said sure and put something together and I was like, Oh my God. This is amazing and we kept speaking things and tweaking things I changed the absence spoon I change the flowers so that they were a little bit bigger a little bit more realistic looking we change like the fun I was incredibly Involved in in the cover, all three of my books, and so just super pleased with how how they turned out I think I saw somebody mentioned. Somewhere, I don't know if it was on twitter instagram were just like oh my gosh. This author just keeps hitting hit-. Hitting like the the. Book cover lottery with the books. There's so beautiful and I'm just like I'm super lucky that they have come out exactly the way that I that I wanted them to, and they've just been absolutely perfect for the stories like match. Just right. Time for our second break of the podcast. When we come back, we'll be speaking a little bit more about these two books that Ha Ha Book End Opium Absence Sorry I'm young. Okay. I'm on antibiotics. Let's go ahead and take that break. When we come back, we'll be talking more with Lydia King about her novel opium and absent as well as the two novels that surrounded a beautiful poison and the impossible girl. So stay tuned, you're listening to the GMC Book Review Podcast and I'll be right back. Tired of searching the vast jungle of podcasts now, listen close and here this out. There's a podcast network that covers just about everything that you've been searching. The Golden State media concept's podcast network is here nothing less than podcast list with endless hours of podcast covered. From News Sports, music fashion cooking dinner table, fantasy football, and so much more. So stop flirted around and go straight out to the golden state media concepts podcast network guaranteed to build that podcast. Whatever it maybe a visit us at www dot Jesus, MC podcast, Dot com follow us on facebook twitter and download us on itunes soundcloud and Google play. And Welcome back to the FIA some CBA podcast just as a reminder before the break Lydia and I were speaking about the two other historic novels that connect with opium and Absinthe, and they are the impossible girl and a beautiful poison, and so we're going to continue that conversation a little bit now as the interview goes on. A actually thought when I was on your website that you can tell that it's the same author but they they aren't the same cover I mean like. They have similar. They've similarities. So you can tell that you know maybe maybe there's something more with these and it turns out that it's the author but Yeah. The the covers are really cool. Yeah and they are there to each of the books their standalone dog. So they are not. You can read them in any or that you want to but they do have some things in common. So I liked that that thread pulls them together both like one. Visually, you can just look at the books and sort of know that they're all kind of like. Like sort of related to each other and in the books themselves, you know they all take place in New York City they are all historical mysteries that have this sort of medical or scientific or chemistry sort of bent to them and they all have members of the same family threaded throughout the bucks and so you'll see in. opium and absence Tilles a descendant of the main character in the impossible girl and then You'll find out that their characters in opium absentee who are actually the parents of alley lean cutter who is the main one of the main characters in beautiful poison. So The cutter family it just sort of its way throughout the novels but they don't. You don't have to read one before the other in order to to enjoy them and I actually did technically write them out of order because I wrote. A beautiful poison takes place in nineteen eighteen. The impossible girl takes place in eighteen fifty, an opium absence, eighteen, hundred, nine sounded completely writing them out of ordering yet. I'm I'm trying to weave that little bit of sort of that common thread throughout all of them. So. So we talked about where opium comes into the title, but we have not talked about the absent part of the title sticky chocolate. Story. Right. So how absence thought into the title of? Completely random things One of my favorite movies from the nineteen nineties is Bram. Stoker's Dracula by Francis Ford Coppola so that John I think. Yes I know. I think that when I was in college I think and you know known a writer Gary Oldman and it is when it came out it was. Drinking movie like The Way that they had portrayed Dracula and the way that they portrayed like Nina, I just really loved how they did it and they there was a scene in. The movie where Dracula and Meena are in the salon and they are they're actually drinking out of together after living extremely popular libation in late eighteen hundreds and early nineteen, hundred And I've always been sort of obsessed with the the concept of it because you don't just drink absinthe just like order a town they give it to you like there is an there's this whole ritual of how you're supposed to drink it that I thought was really really beautiful and I'm not even a big alcohol drinker but I just thought this is just so gorgeous. You know you have to put a little bit of accent at the bottom of the special. Glass, that has a reservoir at the bottom. Then he put a spoon on top of the glass and a sugar cube, and then you drip ice cold water onto the cue which just all through the slots of the spoon into the clear green absence liquor and as the cold water in the sugar and the liquor mixed together, it becomes cloudy. So look like magical transformation in order to drink a lot of the people who were huge stands of Athens at the time were where these huge leaders in in the art world in the visual are unreal could lose the tech and You know all these amazing writers so. Edgar. Allan. Poe. There's like a gazillion of them that were just like big fans of us, and so I thought I really wanted to pray not sort of. Oh I'm sorry. Did you hear me I was just GonNa say I keep thinking that I. I keep thinking of that scene in Moulin Rouge where'd These creative types, and then they decided that that then they go hit the absence and Kylie Minogue chose up and she says I'm the green ferry and I'm like Oh. Yes. Yes that is exactly and they used to call the green fairy because they're like, oh, not only does it maybe sort of your mind a little bit, but it can make you think they claimed they claimed that it could increase your creativity and so there is a scene in the movie where they're drinking absence and it is not in the book. It's just not in the book at all. It's just really something that they decided to do for the movie and sort of illustrated one of these sort of cultural more than a time and I was like I really WANNA put up. This book I gotTA figure out a way to get this in this book, and soon as I thought of absent, the title just popped into my head opium and after like these to. You know these two elements that you could use to sort of alter your consciousness and the each have their own sort of kind of history, rich rich history and mystery and that that edge of dangerousness to them I wanted to put in the book, and so I had the title before I had any idea how gonNA put out. into the story and so I. I like shoehorn today and I was like I'm going to make up the part of the story going to make it a major clue in the book and that's how that's how it happened. It was because I was influenced by something that was culturally thing time and from movie and I just I like I wanted in there. I love it and at one point I think he is using an absence of bookmark although she doesn't know what it is. which you know. Because you know. Right exactly. So protected that she's like she doesn't even know what it is and she's working. This is the strangest thing I don't even know how it's Kinda. Funny. How like dictionaries are very you folks you know what you're looking at but if you don't know what you're looking up, you don't know how to find it and I think that's what absence been wish she was like. I don't even know what this is and she couldn't ask anybody in our house 'cause she didn't want to get in trouble So yeah, it's Kinda. Funny I now have several absence students in my house and I I've only had it like once or twice then it's really strong and I don't like I don't want to say I don't think I. Love It. I, think I need to like find a cocktail that I'm going to sort of turn into my favorite the cocktail but But yeah, it is I have done the whole ritual with the accident and the student of sugar and it's Super Fun and Kinda fascinating but the but I'm not like I'm not actually a huge. because. I'm just not like a big cocktail drinker I never was but it doesn't mean I can't be like sort of obsessed about it so. I I had another author on oil back in her book was set in the nineteen twenties in Chicago, and she actually tried out the recipes for a lot of nineteen twenties cocktail Oh. Yes. Well. She said some of them were as them. We're not. Okay But it was a very interesting form of research. That is really really funny. Yeah. I think like I researching the time period is always. So. Much Fun. It's like incredibly enjoyable but it's also fraught with if very time consuming because in order to get a feel for the time period, you can't just like sort of read a book and get everything that you need you have to find out. More about the language, how did they read? How did they? How? How did they see? You know what kind of words they used for certain things? How did they dressed with fabric call? Had they get around? What was your transportation like I mean it wasn't. It wasn't even a simple as sort of like, oh, like some people were using horse and buggy still and people were using automobiles but like you if you like literally stepped outside of your home, like how did you get the horse and Buggy they're like, how did they know? Where were the stables like all those things like you have to ask these questions about how things function not necessarily that you're gonNA put them on the book, but they have to sort of make sense. So that was a that was a huge amount of work just to get that all in there but the food part that was so much fun like just sort of looking up what Foods were at the time like they had called the mandarin case that was like amazing and the kind of salads that they would eat and soups and things like that. So I think at some point in time I, I don't know how I came across this I. Think I'm obsessed with the movies. So I love watching movies that have anything to do with food and I. Found this one story, not a story. It was actually nonfiction about putting together like a Boston Fannie farmer East from like eighteen, ninety nine, using the actual stoves and cookware and everything from eighteen, ninety nine and it is done by the people who like America's test kitchen. It's like an incredible incredible story. I think founded on Amazon or something like that. But like they're basically like sweating their brains out in the hot kitchen making me crazy dishes nobody eats nowadays under extreme circumstances and I was like, yeah. So I did steal a couple of those dishes and I put them in the book. Very Fun and you know it's done by America's test kitchen is going to be very thorough. Very detail Orient? Yes. Exactly. It's gotta be. It's gotta be very, very thorough. So and it was incredibly satisfying like little little short movie to watch though I'll see if I can find the the name of it but So. Yeah. But the research is a Lotta Fun, but it is. It's definitely time consuming. There's no question. Yeah. What are you working on now? So I am actually currently working on a follow up to that nonfiction go quackery. Nate Peterson and I are writing a book called patient zero, which are all about pandemic stories and people affected by pandemic throughout history and the story behind pandemics and how they got started We actually got the idea for the book that we started generated along with their editor before this whole Cova thing even started. So it's just weirdly timing timely that we're writing that, and then I am also writing a fourth historical book novel on it doesn't have a title yet, but it takes place in World War Two and it involves the Manhattan Project and the Brooklyn Navy Yard. So that is another one that I'm writing. That will hopefully be out in twenty twenty one. All right. Thank you for that. we've talked about a few of your books that are there any any any of your novels that you would like to highlight? Of, its shore so Yeah if you are a fan of Historical fiction and you like opium absent. Then for sure you should give a try to. A beautiful poison and the impossible girl. So like I said before they are all historical fiction mysteries they all take place in New York and they have this threat of the same family in beautiful poison takes place in nineteen eighteen, and so it is right in the middle of the influenza epidemic. Excuse me the influenza pandemic on they'd called it. Spanish flu time. and it's also at the beginning of The New York City Office of the chief medical examiner. At Bellevue Hospital. Which is where I did my residency and There's a character who works there and you get to know some of the pathologist there while they are trying to deal with you know solving industry and I also put a radium girl in there. So you know the young woman is working in a watch factory slowly being poisoned by the radium that she's using the paint onto the dials, and so it's a again one of those sort of like lots of rich history but with characters that are just trying to make their way in the world and figure out how to survive. and then the impossible girl takes place in eighteen fifty. In New York and it is about a woman who actually is a resurrection, and so she works pretends to be a man during the daytime or rather than nighttime when she procures bodies for medical school and one of the reasons why she's doing this is because she is one it's a way to make money and to she herself has. with born with two hearts and knows that These like anatomical museums would do anything to hands on her body because they would make a lot of money from her dissection and so she keeps her finger on the pulse of that entire industry and what that story is about. So again, a lot of bit of medical history and not one as well. Thank you. Last break the podcast, and when we come back, we'll be continuing those follow up questions that I love to ask in terms of writing and kind of books by authors like to read and all those questions that I like to be nosy about. So stay tuned you're listening to the GMC book podcast and I will be right back. Pets bring such joy to our lives and the MC pets podcast is here to share in that joy. We'll tell stories of pets finding their forever homes acting in unexpected ways being helpful or just being silly whether you love dogs, cats llamas reptiles fish or you've never met an animal you didn't like the MC pets podcast is for you. Single could be podcasts and losing of my interview with author Lydia King. Is Writing something that you've always wanted to do. Did you come to that realization later in life? How did that work for you? Personally? So it was a very weird road for me to get here. So when I was a kid, I was a serial reader like I would I had this pile of books in my house small pile of books and I would read the books over and over again and and I remember trying to write something like in third grade and it was terrible it. was like a paragraph long and I'm like I can't how do I turn to paragraph into a book? I have no idea. So I kind of gave up and You know I started to write in journal when I was in high school that my English teacher encouraged us to do and I started journaling more in college and I remember I took a creative fiction. class in college and I just wasn't one of the best writers there either, and I just kept getting a sort of message from the universe like you just don't know what to do with us. You're not very good at it, but I was really good at sci-fi with Mike. I loved the Biology and my dad is a doctor and it occurred to me that I could help people and you know really explore science together in medicine until I. decided to become a doctor. So it wasn't until I'd been a doctor for a couple of a couple of years that I started writing essays about. Being a doctor and a about patient care and those turned into me writings and poetry, which then turned into me joining a writer's group. Once I moved to Mid West and it was only then so I've been in practice for a little over ten years that I suddenly decided. I'm just GONNA try to write a book. I could be a terrible. Idea and this could be a terrible book but I've always wanted to do it. I. Want to try to do it and I'm just going to dive in and I basically self pot like I learned everything I did so much of what of my writing just came from reading blogs and websites about you know how to show not tell and how to. You know write beautiful turns of phrase and how to create world and right three dimensional characters and it all started round two, thousand and nine. It started and I wrote a couple of books and it was my third book that ended up getting an agent and got published in two thousand thirteen and it was young adults I. started out in young adult. And I branched off into adult later but it really just started with me kind of giving myself the permission to be like just 'cause you're like, you think you know you don't have a degree in this and you're not meant to do this for your entire career. It doesn't mean you can't try and. Give it a shot and It took me a long time to really give myself permission to try to do it and push myself and then and I'm so glad. I did. Yeah I I am to way to persevere. Do. You. Then have advice for aspiring authors. I do I think that A couple of things is. Definitely read a lot and find out what you like to read and find out what? What's out there I I I think it's important that if you want to. Write something that you. You are sort of comfortably well-versed than what you're you enjoy. So I've had people up to me and say, Hey, I really really wanNA write young adult fiction But. I. Don't really read it very much and I'm like. Well, that's a terrible idea like why would you want to write about something where you don't actually enjoy reading those books So that's one thing. It's kind of a very obvious but for some people, it's not second thing is be willing to know that you're going into this and you have a lot of improvement to do so I went into this knowing. Very. Well, I'm not an expert in creative writing I. so much to learn, and so when I did get feedback from people at a very open heart and very open mind about trying to correct a lot of the mistakes that I was making early on as anonymous writer, and so you do have to be painful that you have to open yourself up to improvement and that's really the only way that you're going to get better. and the final thing is to. As hard as it is, and this is actually probably impossible and you will do this anyways try not to compare yourself to other people. Because everybody's. Journey. To. Publication if that is their goal is really really different publishing houses are all different small publishing places big publishing paces. In their I'm with an I'm with an Amazon imprint and a small And Small publishing houses and I've been with big publishing houses and they're all very very different. I have friends who are self publish and they do incredibly well, and there's a lot of snobbish and if it goes around like you know, are you a considered a good writer on a good writer? You know I would very much like for people to leave that sort of high school quirkiness behind and just sort of be supportive of each other and try not to be too judgy including judging yourself you know just try to do it. Kinda keeps you happy and you know for me it's also. Mind that a Lotta, a Lotta Times writing as much as you love. It may not be enough to sustain you financially and just keep that in mind that that's There's a good chance at that might not happen and it doesn't happen for a lot of writers that you have to have this other job. To keep going and so being financially realistic about what you're getting into is. A savvy thing to do. So lots of advice But hopefully, the bottom line is that if you love it, just try it and see where it takes you. Would you take the time to read for yourself who are the authors and the Z find yourself gravitating toward. So I I read all over the place I read a lot of other results is my a. Nonfiction work in my research I do read a lot of nonfiction. So that just. pop onto my lap all the time. So like one of my favorites like on Historical Nonfiction Authors Eric Larsen I love his stuff Deborah. Plum is finance writer who I adore and she has written some fantastic books In the past several years, one of my favorites is hold on I'm GonNa get this name. Wrong. So I'm GonNa make sure that I say it the right way because I tend to get things wrong in my. he do. Yeah I know I know funny and so yeah. So one of her books the most recent one, I call the poison squad, one chemist single-minded Crusade for food safety at the in the twentieth century, the turn of the twentieth century, and then the other one that. Actually. Love is the poisoners handbook murder and the birth of forensic medicine in Jazz H. new. York and it was an inspiration for me writing beautiful poison. So those are two of my favorite nonfiction writers if Bart's fiction writers go honestly I'm all over the place because I read young adult fiction I read adult fiction Marine Gu is one of my favorite young adult authors She writes these great sometimes Rom Com. why eight bucks and she's a friend I W. Gregorio authorites fantastic books as well. Pinkett done. There's just three some of my favorites. And then in the Adult World Sarah. Fine or shelter right to SF Khoza a friend but she writes in thin tastic. So. I also and really liking Ah ten and talk we who both right ruler slash domestic thriller sometime just there's so many people out there and Those are people that some of them. I actually know in person I'm so I'm probably a little bit biased, but oftentimes, I will just like grab something from you know the top ten list just feed and find out like why's everybody loves us so much you know and just sort of listening in on. So I've read a lot of adult thrillers as a result of that just a sort of like you know just get myself swept away into another story to enjoy. So lots of great stuff out there and never enough time to read the ball. Never enough time to. Actually been on the PODCAST. So I've gotten to talk to her about her last two novels that were you know yeah. The line between and the yeah yeah. Yep. Yes. Yes. So That was a Lotta Fun So I know you have a website. So if you can tell people what your website is and how they can connect with you maybe on social media. Sure. So my website is Lydia King. Dot Com pretty easy There's usually you know an updated list of events and information about my books on their On Social Media and probably the most active on instagram. Where you can find me at Lydia King I. Tend to post a lot about my puppies and food 'cause I'm I'm very hungry and I love cooking so I'm constantly cooking stuff taking stuff on my instagram I'm also on twitter at Lydia why King and I'm on facebook author, Lydia King. So you can find me sort of all over the place, but probably the place that I most frequent is instagram I tend to be a very visual person so. I like to you know post authors, interesting things on my life, and so you'll kind of get a feel for the kind of person I am by the stuff that's in there because it's basically like dogs, books, research and. Cooking in nature. So that's pretty much the whole life right in there. That's accurate I. I've been trolling through your instagram for the last couple of minutes and. Talk. Also. Your twitter bio says that you are a professional snacker. Are, you being my neck. As we I wish I was paid for that like as we speak I have like a loaf of like cream cheese bread like rising on my top and I'm like as soon as this interviews over I'm going to go make some breads and like super excited about that but Yeah, I'm like. Dude I can't help it and I put food in my book all the time because I love reading about food. I, think it's like Super Fun. Before I forget remember I was telling you about that that video movie documentary out that like huge supper like that eighteen, ninety, nine per it's called fannies last supper and I. Think you can find it on prime video but it is like basically a Boston steeped from like well over one hundred years ago made style of well over one hundred years ago and it was just it will make you drool by the end of it but it was. Great, but it was good fodder for writing a human APP that's for sure. Thank you I will have to check that out. So we have talked about. A few things. Me But. Anything that we haven't covered that you were wanting to bring up about opium and opium and absence I can't speak. Or the. Writing in general, just anything that we haven't covered. Oh I don't think so but you know what? If you have a question that I did not answer feel free to send me a message on instagram on twitter or through my website I'm happy to answer them. also happy to like sort of chat with clubs and we do have book club question on my website under the book though if you guys do choose it as a book club as a as a book selection for your club I, make I went through and made Mike a nightclub thing to think about to discuss. So DOT is on there as well. All right. Wonderful. Thank you. Well I don't I don't WanNa keep you from your bread baking so. Thank you. So much for taking the time to talk to me about not only opium an absence, but some of your other novels as well. I, really appreciate it. You're welcome. Thank you so much for having me Sarah. Thank you once again to Lydia for joining me to talk about the new book opium absent as well as Actual opium and actual absence. I love historical fiction you know that and I love the research that authors put into it in the things that they find out that you don't always make it into the book but I'm just I I think I could find myself an author falling down a research rabbit hole as many of the others I speak too often do. I would just find so many random little facts and then I would want to put them all in the book and then it would be a nine hundred page book that nobody would want to repeat. So. Thank you again to Lydia. Thank you as always to you my listeners i. hope that you enjoyed this episode. I hope you're having a good week so far and I hope that you will join me as always for my next. My next author interview for that interview, I am speaking with Phyllis hollow her. Debut novel the SPA at Lavender Lane I just have to share this this quote with you on from the back of the book. This is from Charles Salzberg award author of Second Story Man and Charles Rights Philip Smell Hollow has written a wonderful lively, bitchy novel populated with a cast of women young and old that make the real housewives. Look like girl scouts you'll love them you'll hate them. You'll be glad they don't live next door to you the perfect betrayed. Even, if there's not a beach within a hundred miles, so that doesn't intrigue you I don't know what will unless that's not your kind of book, but that is what I will be talking about end I will be speaking with Phyllis about this book on the next episode. So join me for that in the meantime. Hope you're having a great weekend and as always I hope you're finding plenty of time to get yourself lost in a good book or ten. Next time you been listening to the Golden, State Media Concept's book review podcast part of the Golden state media concepts podcast network. You can find this show and others like it at www dot GSM. See podcast dot com download our podcast on itunes stitcher soundcloud, and Google play this type in. Jesus Mc to find all the shows from the golden state media concepts, podcast network from movies to music from Sports Entertainment, and even weird. You can also follow us on twitter and on facebook. Thank you and we hope you have enjoyed today's program.

opium Bram stoker Tilly pembroke GMC Book Review morphine Lydia Lydia King Tilles WanNa sinus infection Nellie bly New York City Google America New York Nate Peterson
Therapist Jewel Love

The Emotional Lives of Black Men Podcast

26:35 min | 2 years ago

Therapist Jewel Love

"It's not uncommon to hear acknowledgement that there are many struggles involved in being a black man in America. What is uncommon is acknowledgement that by definition all human struggles impact, mental health, depression, trauma, zairy strength growth. These outcomes are often precipitated or the lease influenced by individuals life struggles in yet, it is difficult to find conversation dedicated to examining the lived experience of black men and connecting experience with emotional functioning. These conversations are attended to be exploratory and thought provoking, and while it is hoped that some will find them healing. They are not intended to be there. -peutic in the clinical sense. Even when guests are trained clinicians. They're participation represents their live experiences in their personal and professional lives. And does not constitute therapy. Welcome to the emotional lives of black men podcasts on this episode. I'll be talking to Joel love Joel is an Oakland based there. In the founder of black executive men. Jill thank you for making time for us to have this conversation about black men in mental health to start off. I would like to ask you, how did you get into this profession? So I remember being in eleventh grade and watching Steven Spielberg's on stod in my English class. Being one of the only black his in the class. My sister may have been there twin sister. But I don't remember all remember is it being bewildering in overwhelming seeing lack people being for overboard by white people in chains and sinking to the bottom of the ocean. If floored me I didn't get it in. I felt scared. I felt. The wilder. I felt sad in our ran out of the classroom in nobody came out. Nobody came out there. I was just there alone. That then led to my passion for community activism, specifically within the black community in fighting for our rights our dignity, our respect that took that into college UC Santa Barbara, which was very why upper middle class school in. I was from very diverse low income working class. But if you wanna call it background so for the first time in my life. I felt like a minority I heard about being a mind forty, but I'd never felt like being a minority until I was the minority which was at UC Santa Barbara so beautiful. But at the same time heaven hell gorgeous yet, I was a outcast. I was not accepted. Am I guess? Was for both racial and class reasons. We we came aboard. So anyway. Turn to black activism became a black. Studies. Major first book I read there was the auto biker mythical Madge shout out at book changed my world. At that time. I stayed in a seven story building called F T at the time. Fuck towers is what they call it for somebody mid meat a porno. They're a couple of years. Santa Barbara's known for party. So on staying in F T, but I'm not fucking. I'm on the bottom floor the basement reading the auto by Malcolm X in getting matter in matter matter. So I was enraged, and I was on fire, and I've been awakened to the injustice in the world. I wasn't fully aware of junior high early high school years so from then on all's on a mission to change the world in let the world know that we is black people deserved respect that we were hurting, and we were gonna get that respect in Justice organized with the black student union helped create this organization called ABC in California. ABC stands for the African lack coalition it unites all the UC schools. In now, many of the states holes community colleges from UC San Diego all the way up the coast to UC Davis ABC still going strong today. Big shoutout, y'all ABC. However, what I notice is the more that we won campaigns to be friendly even established ABC the worst. I felt inside. And it was so counterintuitive I mean, we had lack students in all red t-shirts fish up drums plan out front. We're not taking any mess in. God a lot of respect for that. But it didn't matter. It didn't feel the silver the empty hole in my heart or the pain in my soul. It's all very confused because I thought I was doing what I needed to heal not to heal to be empowered. But I wasn't doing what I needed to do to heal so fast forward, I left it. I left. A black community activism behind. I mean, I traveled to Ghana in Africa. And you know, the whole motherland journey. I like outweighed snap. I'm hell of American hopeful. Wake up call. I was like, whoa. I got it. Not gonna be liberating Africa anytime soon. Three socialism's check in a like got it clear came back to the states was like I need to figure something else out some time passes. I knew a few different jobs careers, teaching car sales whole bunch of stuff, and I'm trying to move forward with my life. But I reach a major impasse. Which is I started to question my own sexuality, which was major for me that time because I've been straight up until that point I had a girlfriend at that time. And I was having these homoerotic dreams homo erotic dreams at the time. So I remember just having one of them one night and laying next to my girlfriend at the time in realizing I had tell her this really important for her to know, really important information. Some laying in bed looking up at the ceiling just reach over tapper in her mind bay day. She's when was like, I gotta tell you. So what is really unlike? I just had a homo erotic dream. She fly. What? In from that point. We oughta series discussion I told her what was going on for me. She said our relationship is on pause. You need to go. Get some help with that. And I fully agree. She was absolutely right. I did. So fortunately, I was referred by her to mama jewel, mama, Joel shutout love you. You were there for me. One of my darkest times most difficult moments. Dr Joel is the owner of the oldest gay and lesbian black nightclub in Los Angeles called the catch warn Jewel's catch one, mama. Joel said I've heard it all I've been here for thirty plus years k I need for you to go. See this therapist a psychotherapist? I'm like psycho therapy, something in the movie, the killer, psycho, al-salam, she. Says his name is Dr hill have said oh, kill what. No. This is worse. It turns out Dr kill Hefner's old gay white man, who's a psychologist in my mind, I'm terrified because I'm thinking is she hooking me up with this deal to have a sexual relationship. Like is this some under some some negativity that I'm not I do I don't wanna get lost out here. L A eat soles in y'all in LA, knowing some don't get out whole of Los Angeles, many places, but LA? Wow. So I'm thinking this it for me, you know, before Joel go under. But I showed up to his place his office and opened the door shake his hand. Sit down on his cows. Benji place is not not high maintenance nothing just energy, Dr kind of office, but it's meld of knob ciampa anybody in the yoga or Hindu or kind of community roster community knows knock shop a wonderful in says Mel can't fill in that in the picture of Malcolm X, all snow cannot do this Anna pitcher Yoda as high. These there the. Filled with MS. So for the next two two and a half years. He introduced me to some concepts that were just life changing. At that time. I did come out is a gay, man. Dated other men explored the gay community in stop data game. In in started. Dating trans women Esau whole nother experience for me. It's just to be honest. It was a profound experience dating someone who does not fit neatly into one gender box or the other. But at that time he introduced me to Joseph Campbell's work hero. The Dow's and faces he introduced me to men's healing work. He introduced me to Robert bly. He introduced me to all my goodness. Initiation. Work are title psychology, work, male psychology. He just introduced me to all these concepts. That was a doorway that opened up into my own soul. I'd say the core was union depth psychology. In wooden young was talking about was this collective unconscious realm mainly access through our dreams are dreams being the Royal road to the collective unconscious. Any talked about this place where these energies live like an e FAA. They talk about Sean, go in your more ya in battle. La, etc. Goon in our type psychology. They talk about those the art types, and they have art types of all these cultures. All over the world the beautiful thing about union art, title psychology. What he introduced me to is my own story. My own are types. I got to put down all the spiritual books in literature that I had been reading any helped me come up with own own roadmap. My own spiritual blueprint, I became myself in that process. Now, here's the thing. Three no to website about six months ago and talked about a spiritual waking awakening is preceded many times by dark night of the soul. It's a deep hard ship. That comes before the awakening why they. Because it has to strip away your old identity. It has to have you question. Everything you've known about yourself. Why like a snake like a serpent to shed your skin income into your true self? So for me that was around sexuality because that rock me to the very core enforced me into therapy. Some grateful for that part of my journey it now, I know whole 'nother part of reality that I had no idea about before in Connecticut, my clients, etc. But I will say journeying into the gay community. What I found so valuable was their ability to the emotionally vulnerable weeks tween men in. There was no stigma around it in. That's what I wanted. That's what I needed. I need emotional connection. Emotional union. Once I found that out figure that out moved onto the gay community where I'd come out as a gay, man. Whatever happens when you come back in or whatever from that or move on for those of us rely mandate. Okay. I mean that was a hell of a journey, but what I was really looking for was in motion connection with my own self as a man in with other men in my life, and I didn't have that. With my father growing up. I didn't necessarily have that with my friends most of them until that point, but I was suffering on some level because I needed that in my life in my soul was screaming for it in. That's how symptoms arise. So that's, you know, of course, long story here. But I wanted to give you a lot of context. A lot of richness Lada imagery for my own journey in how I got into psychotherapy. My journey with it which immediately led me to say, I want to do this in help other people in Qena therapist in the what kind of work are you doing down as their right now. I'm working with black executive men. I had a general psychotherapy practice in brothers were coming to me consistently said, we wanna work the black man, I wanna work with the black, man. I wanna work with a black, man. And I totally understand. Because when I was a intern. I said I want a black supervisor that is successful not a Monday practice in everyday practice in put it out in the community in once showed up. His name's Eugene porter. Not shutouts, gene. He wasn't just successful. He owned the whole building. He owns building were in his ten suites. He took me under his wing helping him a private Bax going in a brother started coming to me in a double down on that and opened up black executive. Men are served primarily black men in corporate America who are struggling with depression. What type? Black executives come to you with the number one is loneliness. It's lonely at the top. You've heard that before is true for these men. They're successful lawyers successful nonprofit exacts successful in the corporate life. However, they put on so many masks over the years on how to play perfect in present is perfect because his black men may have to we have to in these settings. We don't have the leeway to make too many mistakes because people are already looking at us wait into word already suspect. So we've learned to dress twitchy we've learned to seek to a teaming. Learn to not get too close to the women in the office in be aware aware, my body position to yours. What I say how much I reveal how can how much we can talk about. What's going on the news at work? Even when people say open up there's just a fine line that we walk than clients come you just losted than having to do. All of that work just to occupy spaces. I'll say yes in. Yes. It's interesting 'cause obsolete. His I've had console. Hey, Shays with men who were in that realm. But oftentimes the clients that I've actually worked with that's a piece of it. But it's not the whole was. Yes. So indefinitely a piece it just comes with the territory, but the whole puzzle is usually a lot more. The whole puzzle is usually their fathers abandoned them when they were two years old. And they suppress that experience where the feeling of loss in now is the first time father themselves, it's murders. They don't know where it's coming from how to process it or what to do with it. The type of venom is physical emotional or both both could be father actually wasn't their father left in. Now wore emotionally just was not present with their in. That's just one example. But for most of these examples is that these men have learned to distance themselves from their emotionality their emotional landscaping reality. So what we do. Is literally take out a feelings. Worksheet frontside is positive backside is negative. They may come in in. I ask them. So that thing happened in the office with your white boss again hadn't you feel about it in may say, you know, what I'm just going to do this next those these are thoughts actions feelings, how did you just feel about it? And I'm inviting them into an emotionally intensely vulnerable stays in it. I they may give me one or two feelings in as we move into more sessions. They might start listing off, you know, ten eleven twelve suspicious scared Hannett lost per plex. When some when they tell me per plex. I'd say that's so rich, I know some much more about your experience your internal landscape now than. Just telling me that that thing happened again. I know more about you. Now, you shared more about yourself with me now, and I'm very receptive. And empathetic to what you have to share. So that becomes a new spirits for them really opening up candidly in a place where there's no penalty is just empathetic support in that becomes the new normal for these men were ever, they go in their new standard for what relationships need to be both professional in personal what type of barriers do you come across earlier? You said you found that gay men were more accessible to their emotions and having connections with other men. Do you find your clients come in with us the ignored or the misconception of being close to another? Mill is detrimental sexuality. What's interesting? I don't recall anybody tell. Telling me that I think they they were just not given the tools throughout they just weren't given. But I think that maybe there for for some guys whether that's there are not these guys are not giving it it win. It happen kindergarten. They talk about you know, feelings emotion may first, and then it's just not a thing anymore. And you know, we're Todd though cry men up a I'll get it. There's a time not to cry. There is a time to man, I get that. But there's also a time to if you're hurting feel it a knowledge it process it hopefully can says announcing so maybe won't happen again in were not given that the therapeutic education of how to heal ourselves. So that's really what this comes down to. It's it's educational process that most black men never receive. It's not hip hop nose. Not in our culture in that in hip, hop cold. Scher in. So it's kind of knew them in this way, you find black males in general lacking. Those muscles those emotional muscles. Yes. I do. I definitely definitely do were not provided with that education. Not a lot of opportunities to exercise, those muscles and their social stigma. You know, we live in a you gotta be hard. You gotta you gotta have some level of that just living in the city gla- community easy. We got a lot of challenges in a lot of its leftover from slavery. I do believe. But that just has it's just not a huge part of culture yet to be emotionally voter with one another in our wanted to be I that's what black executive men is about in starting with one man at a time with this is this is a movement for how do we reach more res brothers in the corporate sphere provide them provide us with these tools of emotional literacy at a motion, excuse me interpersonal communication in publicly speak about our experiences with these. See that as the way of combating that 'isolation in alleviating that that sense of loneliness that you mentioned before I think for us as black men in general is gonna do wonders for us to know that we can talk to one another and be vulnerable in not worrying about being put down or attack or something of that nature in for that to be a culture for us to the non for that level of welcome in openness, I just think it's positive what's wrong with that. As fantastic aspiration. What would you like to leave regarded by surges information WWW that black executive men dot com? Go there check it out read up on what I'm offering. If you're interested in initial consultation is a sixty dollar value. I'll talk with you. You are it's complementary seen what we can do for psychotherapy working with me, if you're needing assistance. I'd love to speak with you about that. However, I'm not the only game in town, so working with a therapist. That's a good fit for Yuga fit for your budget, personality, etc. Somebody that you can get these skills from in have a healing experience yourself. I swear by therapy. Psychotherapy changed my life. It made me really helped me become who I am in our want you to have this same experience that I have your own version in. I want you to give therapy dry. I hope you will and what kind of exponential effects lack nil community to get from this. Okay, star smog. Go big self. Love more self love to really begin. Learn practice loving yourself. In accepting yourself all the parts of yourself were diverse in just one of us. It's so much of us inside. So just really learning to accept more all who you are that's benefit that can lead to more self love increase self esteem, born joy, more happiness in your life. Now, these just focusing on better relationships with your partner male female, trans with your partner can have more joy there better communication there. Life purpose getting clear lacked in motivated in moving on what you're destined do the gifts that you're destined to deliver this lifetime here on earth. Getting clear locking in that alone, will you profound change in your life. When she locked in on that. If you haven't already make more money, you can make more money life, purpose working with therapists. I work with clients all the time who leave making more money than when they came in the more self-assured. They get promoted. They get the confidence to ask for more money or become entrepreneurs in actually start their own business and be successful at it. So satisfaction in that way, magin there's many more. But those ones off the top. Thank you for sharing your story. This your perspective. Appreciate you're welcome. Thank you for home. Space a safe space for me in other black people to have these dialogues for other people to have these dialogues. This is the root of what needs to be healed in in changed in in the world. I mean, this is this is useful. If that's a range, but it is committed. So thank you. The purpose of this podcast is to open dialogue on a variety of topics pertaining to black males in mental health, the podcast is not a substitute for mental health treatment. Please visit our website for links to mental health resources. Thank you for listening to the emotional lives of black men podcast subscribe to our podcast on itunes or Google play.

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How Not To Let Social Media Depress You

Christian Podcast Community

51:06 min | 8 months ago

How Not To Let Social Media Depress You

"Truths Bresso episode thirty six base. It we all would rather sleep in this morning. That's why God gave us Espresso to kick-start our Zombie corpses into hyper drive. And now giving your mind and soul the morning shot of truth it craves this is truths wrestle with Daniel Mimic Social Media the marvels of modern technology. That allow you to keep in touch with your childhood friends people. You knew many years ago as a kindergarten crush or that pint-sized bully who still terrifies you to the day seemed to be long gone now. Those faces are coming up even when you weren't looking. They now show up on facebook and instagram and twitter and getting in touch is just a click away or on your smartphone now literally just a touch away. Hi this is Daniel Mimic the host of truths Bresso. I hope you're doing well and thank you for tuning in. I am actually recording this episode in a hotel room and that is because my wife is attending a conference on. Women's health care from a pro-life perspective. My wife is getting ready to start a women's health clinic a life affirming women's Health Clinic and so I think that is wonderful and I'm a I am very glad to support this very Christ honoring endeavor and so if any kind of sound effects might happen in the background just know that. I am recording this episode. Actually in a hotel room. This episode is a very interesting look into the world of social media particularly some of the pitfalls that come from social media and the title of this episode is how not to let social media depress you now my social media platforms of choice our facebook and youtube boy am. I so square and I think that has to do with the fact that I'm kind of an aging person on the spectrum of generations. I have been using facebook over a dozen years now and all of those years as an adult. You know kind of creeps me out a little bit just thinking about the younger kids. Some of the kids who I see who grew up on facebook with their baby pictures. That just seems a little creepy to me. Oh those poor generations xeres. It's almost like there's all stock in the Truman show of social media. Of course many of you generations ears might be asking what is a Truman show? Well you know if you have to ask that you're you're too young. It was a movie with Jim Carey back when he was a little bit younger and During the rise of the reality TV craze and basically Jim Carey playing a guy named Truman was living his life from cradle. Basically with the expectation to grave as the star of a reality TV show and he didn't even realize that he was on. Tv thought he was just living his life but he had millions of viewers around the world who were seeing him be born grow up in his childhood. Get married work as an adult. And you know it it. It's just kinda creepy and and seeing generations who grew up knowing nothing outside of having all their pictures on social media for People's friends to see in the Internet. You know that that just kind of creeps me out and kind of makes me glad that when I was born. There was no social media. But don't get me wrong. I love social media. I love to make good use of it especially I like to use facebook for catching up on news chatting with people Using several groups on facebook basically that have to deal with my apologetic endeavors and podcasting and things like that and then of course I like to watch various lectures and perspectives on videos on Youtube and so facebook and Youtube to me are tools to help out my trade as it were but I wanna talk about facebook just a little bit here Kind of humorously before we get into the seriousness of the topic having been on facebook for over a dozen years now. I have observed several personality types based on The profiles on facebook so I have observed you know three different facebook profile types. The first facebook profile type of note is what I would call the Selfie Elf. So what is this Selfie l? Well the SELFIE. Elvis has a huge album hundreds or even thousands of pictures that have almost the same subject but a different background and so the same subject for the Selfie. Elf is a selfie picture of the person. Obviously that person was holding up the phone selfie stick and so you see the same smile the same picture the same person up close and the difference is the background of where that person is and so it's like hey. I'm in Paris France in front of the Eiffel Tower. Hey I'm in the Himalayas or hey in the front of the Grand Canyon but you know the pictures almost look identical because most of the picture is the Selfie Elf smiling and you can have to squint a little bit and see the background and notice. Oh yeah I I could see part of the Grand Canyon behind your Selfie as I. I look like you're having fun. And so that's the Selfie L. and number two facebook profile type is what I'll call the means. Jeanie and this person also has a large album. The has hundreds of pictures but of those pictures almost all of them are means and most of these are memes that the person has not really created him or herself the memes Kaif or shared from other sources. And so if you scroll through all these means the ones with the buzz. Light year putting his arm around Woody shoulder and saying something something everywhere or you have Gandalf from Lord of the Rings In the confrontation with The ball raw and saying something. That's tweet from what he says. They're on the bridge or you have The Guy from braveheart and he says something to the fact that there are times when x must be done but it is not this day you know and and these memes are littered all over the album. And and sometimes you see lots and lots of memes related to a certain pet peeve that basically keeps pushing this idea over and over again so gleaning through all these the means of the mean genie profile. You can kind of assess piece by piece where the person stands politically or what. The person's obsession is with certain types of entertainment and so on and then buried deep in that album. You might piece together about a dozen pictures that actually show. The person usually with A group of like family or friends something like that. So this is the person who likes to communicate messages through means and make people laugh or thumbs up and so on and is not someone who has to get you to see his or her mug on a picture and so that's the mean Jeanie and number three facebook profile. Type is the lurker now. The lurker is someone who has been on facebook for a decade or more quite a few years but still after all. This time has just a small album. That is pretty much been collecting digital dust. I might have to say that I'm probably closer to this one. Then a lot of people I know on facebook but it's not necessarily a bad thing because facebook doesn't always have to be about. You could be about other people and it can be a tool as I said before so those are three facebook profile types that I I just kind of want to take a hot shot at and make fun of because social media is something we should be able to laugh and joke about and have fun with but social media has its pros and its cons. One pro for social media certainly is the access to information and the availability of information that was never conceivable just a few decades ago. I mean I am glad for one that social media has also become a source for news. Now we got to take that with a grain of salt because sometimes a lot of fake news spread on social media but along with the fake news. Social media allows lots of people to be able to tear it apart and try to present truth too so sometimes when an event happens like an event around the world people on social media spread it and people using social media. Find out about some of this news. Before any of the major headlines from the mainstream media sources actually get their feet off the ground to discover and promote it so social media can be a good source for news as long as you have a discerning mind. Another pro of social media is that it can allow the user to have tools for building technical skills and qualify for more jobs and these tools can be cheaper than what they once were that you'd have to find in a store going to some workshop or getting some of that information in college you can sometimes get free information by being able to talk with people directly or watch some of their link videos via links and so on to learn how to do things and acquire real real marketable skills many times for free and amassing yourself of some of these tools can allow you to be more qualified for really Nice Higher. Paying jobs and social media can even make some of these job openings. More available to you gone are the days of having to look at the papers and find job openings in your local area you can find if you're willing to move social media can allow you to find a job in another state that could be better than any of the ones available in your area so that is definitely another pro for social media. Here's another pro that I think is really important for those of us who are Christians. Is that social? Media can increase the avenues for sharing the truth of Christ easier. I know for me in particular. I am a member of quite a few groups on facebook and I use that to my advantage. I can share the truth about Jesus Christ. I have witnessed to people. I have talked to some atheists about Jesus Christ and she tried to challenge their world view and I have explained the Gospel deeply to people who are Jehovah's Witnesses who you wonder how they are even allowed to do that or some people who have beliefs similar to Jehovah's Witnesses but yes I have used facebook groups to share the Gospel with people so social media definitely has its pros but of course it has its cons and one of the cons of social media especially for younger people is that it can distract them from direct interactions. You know sometimes adults older adults can make fun of the idea when we see a bunch of kids or teenagers at a restaurant or just hanging out at the mall or something like that and they're right there together and yet they all have their phones out and they're texting each other or you know instant messaging each other through their phones. You see them kind of giggling and laughing at each other saying their mouths are not moving. They're not telling each other the words and you think how inefficient is this social media supposed to make some interaction more efficient with people farther away. But you'd think if you're two feet away social media would be less efficient. Why would you talk to each other on your phones when you're right there and maybe some of these younger people could be lacking in social skills and and knowing how to say things to people's faces so that's one of the cons of social media another con is that it can lead to distortions of everyone else's reality and this is going to be the meat this is going to be the heart and soul of this episode? Recently I found an article that was released a few months ago and it's still relevant today. Yes I know. In the digital age. A few months could be a lot of time in internet years. But you know it's still relevant today just as even some articles from two thousand fifteen can still be relevant today. In things. Even a few decades ago could still be relevant today and as Christians. We should be able to say that the Bible compiled and finalized in about two thousand years. Ago Is still relevant today. But High Digress from that rabbit hole here that rabbit trail but okay the article that I read that was released. A few weeks or a few months ago on Forbes DOT COM is entitled how keeping up with the Joneses on social media is damaging everyone else's mental health and the contributor for this is a lady by the name of Amy Morin so how keeping up with the Joneses on social media is damaging everyone else's mental health. According to this article quote we are now even bombarded with her own friends glamorous pictures of luxuries and vacation times unquote and so there are a lot of people who actually struggle with depression and they're heavy users of social media solicit. Just TAKE THE SCENARIO OF ATYPICAL. Facebook user who might be struggling with depression and you think why would someone struggled with depression. I mean this allows them to be able to talk with all their friends and keep in touch with a lot of people that they grew up with his kids. And now there's so much to learn about then. It's so easy to socialize with people. Yes but that comes with a definite caveat so as you're using facebook or instagram or whatever that has words and pictures from your friends and you you're scrolling through the feeds of some of your friends that you have just gotten back together with for years and you realize is my life complete like my friends is wow look at that nice car while look at that big house that they have. Wow look at the kids. They're always smiling these people they're always smiling. I'm not always smiling. But look at all the pictures that they have. They always have smiles on their faces and their wall on facebook. It's always talking about how they went to this or that fancy restaurant oh look. They went on this hiking trip. And oh they went on a trip to Europe and You know they're just sightseeing their lives. Just seems so glamorous and they just seem to have nothing but leisure all the time except for when they're in their cushy job working in an office doing absolutely nothing but chatting with friends like basically. They're just paid to have fun and they get paid lots of money and then they're always so excited and having so much fun showing you how their lives are just so incredibly fulfilling and rewarding. And what can you do? You're struggling with depression. You're trying to make ends meet. You have your financial difficulties. Unlike your friends on facebook unless they joke about it or maybe they ask for prayer because they actually got a cold or something like that. You know you have your medical expenses you get sick and you feel miserable and but you know your friends. They don't they. Don't see that all you see is happiness and fun and adventure all the time and everyone's just so well behaved. I mean all the kids just glibly smile for pictures and they're all having fun. So what are we to make of this as you scroll down and friend after friend one after the other are telling you and telling all of their other friends about something fun they got to do and how could their lives just not be so full of just happiness and contentment all the time because all of their pictures have. They have smiles on their faces. So all your friends are according to the article quote going on exotic vacations showing off your busy social calendar and proving you have a happier life than everyone else on instagram unquote. Well I have yet to use instagram. Probably because I'm old enough to be considered the oldest of the millennial generation or the youngest of the generation xers or. Maybe I should be called an accent or whatever I am quite a few years removed from the generations ears and so I'm showing my signs of agent. Technically you know it kind of me. I I keep thinking. I'm supposed to be a kid still but you know I could quite comfortably be someone's Grandpa if I had time things. Right so yeah. I'm not a spring chicken anymore. But let's think of what this article is telling us. Keeping up with the Joneses is a saying that has been around. And you know you you have your neighbors and on the other side of the fence. That seems like their lawn is always greener untrimmed better and in the parking lot or in their lot. They have a much nicer. Shiny your vehicle than you have and and when they leave the house and they wave at you they have the smile on their face trying to be nice of course but as you notice the way they live their life it seems or the way that they express it to you they have it all together and everything about their lives that you can see just seem to be nothing but luxury all the time the ideal job the ideal car the ideal family and dogs that are nothing but friends and do nothing that require you any headache and you tend to get jealous the temptation there is two harbour quite a bit of envy because you're so familiar with your own life and all you can think about how are your shortcomings all you can think about are the difficulties you face all you can think about our how much the next mortgage bill is going to be or the next medical bill or the next car repair bill or how busy it's going to be to take your kids places and you know just think about it like as a Christian you're get up early on a Sunday morning and you're struggling to try to get ready and trying to get the kids ready out the door and then they're winey or arguing and and then you find you get out the door a little bit late because of trying to deal with all that and you know you're kind of your kids are grown beasts. They made you grumpy back at them. And then you get you park your car in the church parking law and then you get out and you're all nicely dressed but you had to take a deep breath and put on your church face and put that smile on your face and now you start walking in the door and you see that other family that they're not they're nicely dressed. They may even be a little more nicely dressed than you are or they could just beyond par with you. But they're just all waltzing in with smiles on their faces and they and they say howdy or high. And you know and you smile back and say hi but inside. You're thinking I wish I had the perfect family that like them. They just seem to have it all together but look at me. I have to put on a face. I may be smiling but I feel fake. But they're all smiling because isn't that what their life is like all the time. Let me bring up proverbs. Fourteen thirty before we get into talking about separating reality from fantasy proverbs fourteen thirty says a sound heart is the life of the flesh but envy the rottenness of the bones so a heart that is sound or a heart that perceives reality a heart that recognizes truth is the life of the flesh so if your heart understands the way things truly are the way things truly should be represented then this kind of heart helps your flesh to be healthy but envy desiring what other people have Ken. Rotten your bones and that's what this article is talking about. How the philosophy of trying to keep up with the Joneses on social media can actually damage your mental health and damaging your mental health damages your physical health. I mean your mind is part of your body and as your mind struggles. Your physical health can diminish because observing social media and observing. All your friends in what you think is reality seeing all their smiling faces and all their pictures on the walls on facebook and instagram might be communicating to you something that is not entirely true now remember that illustration about how your morning just might look as you're trying to gather your family to church on a Sunday morning and you put a smile on your face and you and your kids are all dressed up for the day. How do you think other families might perceive you perhaps may be the way? You're perceiving other families. Maybe there are other families who look at you. Maybe there are other friends who look at you. And they envy. What you have or rather. They envy what they think you have. And if you knew the way they thought your life was like by what they see of you on social media and what they see view maybe even in person at one or two hours at church where you are intending to convey something. They see that and they're struggling inside not to be envious of you and you might be like laughing now in thinking. Why would anyone be envious of me? Everyone else is better off than I am. And I'm trying so hard to fit in but I'm just failing miserably because inside. I'm rotting inside. I'm hurting and I have all I can do to put on a face and smiles. All the time will there. You go what other people see of. You might mostly be your smiles. But they don't see the inside so think about that as you're scrolling through that feed. What are you seeing? Are you seeing the whole picture? Or are you seeing what you're trying to convey to other people continuing with the article from? Forbes quote studies have linked facebook envy directly to depression. Instagram has been found to be even worse for Mental Health on quote will thank goodness that I have not yet been on instagram. But you know point taken from the article quote. It's easy to forget that other people are just showing off the best moments of their lives. And you might lose sight of the fact that everyone experiences problems mood swings and negative thoughts to unquote. You know those sentences kind of speak for themselves. Don't they think about it? If you're someone who is trying to keep up with the Joneses if you're someone who is basically spending money that you don't really have to spend trying to put on a front trying to impress what you think are your superior friends and Family shouldn't dawn on you to think about this. Perhaps they're doing the same thing. Perhaps there rotting inside. Perhaps they have major problems. Perhaps they're struggling with depression and the only way that they can try to cope with it at least the way it scenes. It's an uphill battle all the time but they just can't overcome it and so the more they try the worst gets but how were they trying to cope with the depression? This envy of you is to compete by posting. Lots of pictures showing them smiling. Doing things remember you. Don't put your whole life on facebook or instagram social media. You're not posting all the pictures of yourself. Showing you depressed curled up in the bathroom. Crying your eyes out on the counter in the sink in the bathroom struggling with your depression you don't all those pictures of yourself on your facebook wall. Now some people do give in and they might post some words talking about how they're depressed and asking for prayer and so on and then sometimes when you see that you think wait why. Why are you depressed? Look at all this other stuff shows how much fun you're having well. We all need to understand that what we see of each other on facebook is what we all want everyone else to see what we are posting on facebook and instagram are the headlines of our lives the very carefully crafted headlines for Christmas. Got a few books written by a guy by the name of Robert Bly B. L. Y? Robert Bly is a copywriter. Now when I say copywriter I don't mean someone who registers copyrights on books or so on I mean right w are not a copy writer is someone who writes what is called copy or words that are used to sell things so. I got three of his books for Christmas Robert. Bly In his books on copy writing breaks down the art and science copy for the average communicator. If you if you WANNA get into writing sales copy. I would recommend that you check out Robert. Bly and as I was reading in some of the books that I got written by Robert Bly. He made a shocking statement. He said that eighty percent of readers that byproducts have only read the headline. So what is a headline? A headline is a very brief phrase clause or sentence whose every word is carefully crafted written a rewritten. To get you to react. So think about it. In a very short number of words you have all this information packed in a very short statement carefully crafted to try to get people with very short attention spans to change their mind about something or to react and to buy something trying to get people to part with their money or be convinced of a certain position on something and change and do something by using only a handful of words so about eighty percent of people who react and buy a product only read the headline. So what's the whole point of the article? Well for those who are a little more Astute and get past the headline some of them are curious enough to then read the article and gather more details and more information so now the copy. The article is not just something. That's dry and academic you know to turn off the reader. It still has to have its persuasive points. It's -bility to sell usually lists. Some bullet points are numbered points or things like that to try to convince you to buy something or to switch political parties or get on board with a certain social agenda or whatever but the headline is the most important part of copy. You do not write a headline in thirty seconds. You could spend hours crafting twelve words in a headline because in that short headline you are going to have the most persuasive part of your sale your pitch and so let's apply this to social media what you see on your friends. Walls and fees in their photo albums are the headlines. You haven't read all the copy of their lives and even if they do give you some copy you haven't read the fine print and the terms and conditions as it. Were you know the pastor my church? A few years ago preached a sermon talking about depression and he did make this point very eloquently. He talked about how people can often get depressed looking through social media like facebook and he said what you're seeing our other people's headlines so think about it what you are seeing are what people are selling to you of their lives. You're not seeing all the gory details of their lives. You're seeing what they're selling to you and think about it if you're trying to keep up with them and you have a prolific presence on facebook or instagram or some other social media platform. And you're trying to do the same thing and you're trying to keep up with the Joneses as it were and you're pitching all of your attempts to show people how happy and successful you are because you're trying to compete. What are you doing? You're selling to and so my advice then is not to become confused to understand this very important point that what you are reading on facebook and on instagram are the headlines of people's lives. You don't see their problems or all of them. You don't see their struggles. You don't see their depression. All you know. Is Your depression your struggles. And then everyone else is selling points so if you get that perspective down you keep that ingrained into your mind whenever you see that luxurious picture of a vacation trip and the smile and the perfect families. They're not is perfect. And as glamorous as the picture will lead you to believe through all the years that I've been on facebook. I have seen what looked like perfect. Lives all of a sudden where you had a coppell instantaneously. It's now a single person and all the pictures of the spouse have been removed. I've seen the accounts where someone found the perfect girlfriend or boyfriend and you have pictures of them hanging out and having so much fun together. Everyone's smiling and then all of a sudden without warning poof single again and all those pictures have been removed. So if you look at that and you assume that the headlines are all of what reality is for that person you begin to wonder. How can someone just change in an instant like that well? It wasn't instantaneous. It may have been a festering problem that all of a sudden came to a head. It was something that was a break up in the making it was something that was doomed to happen for quite a while but the pictures didn't show that think of how many pictures showing a couple at a fancy restaurants smiling into the camera. Might not show you the heated arguments. That could have been a few minutes or a few hours before that. So just think about that. Just recognize that. Social media does not in any way come close to projecting the fullness of reality but just think about this who wins from this distortion of reality. Who Wins when you are spending all this money to try to keep up with the social personas of your friends and family and trying to keep up with all the things they're doing and they're spending on money and cars and houses and so on? Who Wins from this? Is it you or your friends? How about the credit card companies? How about the banks to quote from the article quote? The truth is that the majority of people can't even afford the lavish lifestyles that they are portraying on social media unquote. So here's a dose of social media reality. Let's look at the scriptures. Let's look at James. Chapter four and Verses One through three the Apostle James writes from whence come wars and fighting's among you come they not hence even if your lusts that war in your members e lost and have not ye kill and desire to have and cannot obtain ye fight and war yet ye have not because you ask not ye ask and receive not because you ask Amiss that you may consume it upon your lusts unquote. It's almost as if James had social media in mind when he wrote that people compete and struggle and get envious. And it's like sometimes people will even harbor this this hatred even of their friends. They feel like they want it like punch them in the face or something you know. I WANNA knock that smile off your face. Oh why can't I have what you have well? You don't even know for sure what they have so do not be deceived. Do not let the distortion of Social Media Affect Your Life Affect your mental health. And so I would want to encourage you. I hope that this freeze your mind to realize not in kind of thought that you should feel. Oh well if my friends aren't as happy as I think they are. Then I'm happier because they're they might be miserable. No no that's not the message of trying to get you to think I don't want you to be happy because people night and not be as happy as you think they are. That's not what I want you to take away from this but what I want you to realize is that you're not competing with a standard of perfection that other people might have because they're not portrait because what they're portraying to. You is not all of reality but even after confronting all these facts that this article and the scriptures lay out for us if you still believe you will. Struggle with depression from social media use. Here are some tips number. One tip take a break from social media. Some people just need to put it down. Just put the phone down. Put The tablet down. Put the computer down and walk away at least for a little bit and you might think might time my schedule. I'm so used to using social media. What will I do twiddle my thumbs? No just look for something to replace using Social Media. Replace your usage of social media with something different but just stimulating. You know there. There are things you could do. Since you're reading social media. Why not read something else? Find a good book and start reading that for the same time that you would use social media or of course take out the old trustee Bible and start reading some Bible and get some encouragement. There read the Psalms read the proverbs for wisdom or read the Gospels and see the life of Jesus that it wasn't so glamorous but you see the sacrifices that Jesus made to give his life to save you or even read the book of acts and see what the apostles of the early church went through. You know those are some ideas you know if you take a break from social media find something to replace it tip number to change how you use social media if your feed is full of all your Uber Cool friends that are showing off their world domination and their social habits and all their luxuries look for other things to start filling in that feed that you see on social media and you might wonder well. How do I do that well at least for facebook since I use facebook? There are groups. You can join if you're not a member of Some facebook groups try searching for groups on facebook. Think of things that are something you can do. Think of things your interested in your hobbies some goals that you have maybe your into craft making. Maybe you're into construction. Maybe you want to start a podcast. Maybe you're a mom with a two year old child and you want to find other MOMS with a two year old kids and and associate with them and and not just look for socializing but for something that has advice on how to handle and do things fun and productive with a two year old children. You can look for groups on facebook around that find groups that have common goals and interests that you have find groups that are geared toward achieving things together or find groups that discuss things you know you could find groups if you're a sports fan find groups that have to do with people who are fans of the same teams that you are. You can have fun with that and just get to talk to other people who agree with you on that. Find some good Christian groups on facebook for you Christians out there you know you have your Christian friends but unless the topic is geared toward the things that that are profitable that are intended for helping each other out you might be stuck on facebook trying to compete with the false image of your friends are like and Vice Versa. So look for groups that help you out in. These matters for instance. I'm into apologetic into podcasting and so I am a member of quite a few groups on facebook related to theology and apologetic and talking with Roman Catholics and Jehovah's Witnesses and oneness Pentecostals. And so on and I'm also a member of several groups that have to do with podcasting and mostly about Christians who are podcasting and I have a lot of fun in those groups because everyone's all about helping each other out if you're a Newbie. There there are seasoned people who will bend over backwards to help you out. How and this has been wonderful for truths Bresso as well and truths. Bresso is now a member podcast of the growing family of the Christian podcast community and that never would have happened if I didn't look for Christian podcasting groups and join them and I've gotten to know some really great people some solid people in the faith. Who really want to help me out. And I've gotten to help other people out and doing things like that is what really makes social media an enjoyable experience for me and you know the more groups joined on facebook. The smaller the feed from all of your friends headlines that are going to show up and then there's a lot more posts of people asking questions and getting answers and people helping themselves helping each other out and I think that's wonderful. That's the way I like facebook to be for me. And so that was tip number to change how you use social media and do that by joining some groups and tip number three star metering your time on social media if social media is just going to be problem no matter what you do for instance if you spend way too much time on it. I mean I. I only spend a few minutes a day. I might spread those minutes out over the debt throughout the day. Fine five minutes here or there as I quickly check a feed or see if anyone has answered my question in a group as I mentioned in tip number two. That's how I can meter my social media activity. It's not really healthy to sit on the couch or lounge on the couch. And Scroll through a social media feed for two hours or so that distorts your mantle view of reality and as the article we were reading gets into can lead to depression and anxiety so if you just have to use social media because I personally think it's a good tool some people as in tip number one you need to take a hiatus a break from social media for a while so you can gather your thoughts and replace your social media usage with like reading a book or something but for this tip number three if you just have to use it just like a diet and metering certain types of food that you need to eat use social media but tried time yourself at yourself to maybe fifteen minutes a day or a half hour a day and I would definitely advise breaking that out into little five minute spots throughout the day so that you don't get caught up in it and it becomes a tool in your hand. You don't want social media to control you. You want to be the one in control of social media you want social media to be your tool to improve your life and to improve the lives of your friends and family and maybe even other people that you get to meet that you can never have a chance to meet in person and so I hope this episode how not to let social media depress. You has been helpful. Stay tuned for other episodes of truths. Bresso where we dig deep into the word of God. We challenge political opinions and we help people not get depressed with social media. Thank you for waking up truths wrestle. Good Morning and God bless your day. Hey Friends Daniel Mimic here again. If you liked waking up to this episode of truths Bresso. I would really appreciate it. If you would rate it on apple podcasts stitcher or whatever application you use to listen to truths Bresso.

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150: Not lunch with Adam Blythe

The Cycling Podcast

1:16:24 hr | 2 years ago

150: Not lunch with Adam Blythe

"The cycling podcast in association with Rafeh. From grand tours to group ride. The Shawn's Elise to coffee shops Rafeh exists to celebrate the world's most beautiful sports. Should moore. I'm with Lionel, Bernie, Richard vilo. We're missing Donyell this week dangles gone back to me orca. We'll we'll cut with him again next week. But we've got a special episode this week haven't way we have. Indeed. Yes. So of a lunch with. Into. Well, does it does it qualifies a lunch with when we had lunch amended interview? I think you're right actually going to be straight rules on these things that are I think so. Yeah, it's not a lunch with also I was there to kind of spoil it little bit because your lunch your your lunch. Lionel's lunch with is normally an intimate fares have conducted a lunch with recently. It was liquid lunch in let let me guess that might have been. Well, let's keep under wraps for now. This. This is an extended chat with Adam bly, the British writer who will join lots of pseudo next year. He is an unusual writer in he's falling of the world tour twice on back in twice. He was with BMC losses contract came by race in the UK for and then joined orca Greenidge also went to tink off just before they full ded. And then landed Akwa blue sport where he's ridden the last well almost two years, and he's doing lots of pseudo next year primarily as part of the the leader trainer. Think for Caleb you and who knows from his orca days, but very interesting character. Who's a interesting journey from being well rejected or or or leaving the precisely Kadhamy as a youngster going to Belgium to try that path instead on writing for some of the world's best teams with some of the world's best writers. And. It was a very candid. And and really he spoke LA a by some of the, you know, the wrong turns he's taken and some of the experiences. He's had. So we will hear from him in a moment. But Lionel do you have please news roundup. Yes, I do rich I rattle through this. So we can hear from Adam Blythe the cyclocross World Cup reached table in the Czech Republic. Matthew Banda poll? One second successive round of the wo- company did so convincingly so convincingly in fact that Roger lambing multiple well, multiple pyro by when his brother with multiple world cyclocross champion think one seven times might need to check my fact, but was a multiple dominant. Welsh not cross champion. So it's a bit strange Roger development came out and set vendor. Polls dominancy too bad thing. It's not cross after ten minutes you've seen everything in cyclocross. Now. Edyta? It's no longer worth Ewing. He told Belgian TV well found a poll has won every round of the super prestige series is while I'm the lost two rounds of the DV trophy and is going very well in the World Cup. You know, cyclocross is relatively small, gene pool, isn't it in a way and these kind of eras of dominance do come round every now and again, somebody stands head and shoulders above the rest for wallet was sweating. Nice for a while. Before that who who would have been liberal tone won several while title in the late seventies early eighties. But if the men's race is too predictable. There's a waste of women's because the women's World Cup racing. Table was a hunting particular on the last lap dot dried Lucinda brand produced. A brilliant light bust to be unreal. Worst. The world champion Seneca was down in sixth place in the men's under twenty three event. Britain's Thome Pitcock one that you mentioned lotto, she which at employs is rejoining this coming season, their former Ryder Stig Brooks may remember how to terrible crash in the twenty sixteen tour Belgium crash involving a motorcycle which nearly cost him his life. He was in a in a coma. And in very very bad way this week he's being back on the mountain bike did a forty kilometer ride on amounting by the first time. He's ridden a bike since accident. He said he's next goal is to get back. On a road. Bike Allen piper. One of the sports directors at BMC racing. Former Australian writer is joining you a team way he will work with among others down Martin Fabio ARU and undergo via the UCI president David partying has been in the news again this time giving an interview to our friend cheer Scognamilio Amelia's newspaper. Like, I said L sport. He said that the Jared Italia. Could move back a week in twenty twenty to avoid a clash with the tour of California. So the two of California would come at the start of my and the Jiro would star in the middle, which of course, within close the gap between the Jiro and the tour only a proposal at the moment. But it's it's on the cards party also confirmed appear to confirm that tests for the pain can Trimble will begin in March knock from January the first as had originally been mooted. So it's likely that the Tremino test will come in in time for Peres. I'm finally carry on the trauma. Don't till till you hear well, you've you've experienced Tremino. How many when you when you hit with painful, you can affects invites for tribal. Dull? Yeah. So you can't use the off too. I think we'll we'll adopt all UCI rules on the podcast. I think. Oh, goodness. Me knowing Tremino rich off the March about. Finally, the acquis blue sports story is sort of taken. Another twist. Ongoing. The the fate of the riders who obviously found that season's curtailed. Suddenly they are currently relying on the UCI and the Bank guarantee that the team has lodged with UCI in order to get their salaries paid to the end of December, Rick Delaney. The team owner had said on our podcast that he would cover the salaries of any writers who are unable to get a contract or he would basically ensure the riders who had a contract for twenty nineteen would be seen right by Akwa blue. Now, it does appear in at least one case, Rick Delaney is making good on that pledge. So it's it's been a new story. This one hasn't and Delaney has been well, he's being cost villain of the piece, but perhaps is a little bit more nuance than. That what other little bit us Lionel? If I may join the long is joining lots of Saddam as well as the general manager of a team, Mark Zoll remains the the big cheese there, but the long who has an interesting history in the sport. He was the manager. Of course, the phone I team into those six when Floyd Lon this tests opposed to base being around any words for the two fronts before he's been around lots of top teams, and he will. Start as general manager, lots of Saddam in two thousand nineteen in Dade finally very finally it's the last chance to get tickets for our show David's hall in Cardiff the show on Tuesday, the twenty seventh of November. So that's next Tuesday. There are a handful of tickets still available if you'd like to join Richard order me there. Community around the world. Stories and films with the most compelling characters the world's finest apparel. Explore the world of cycling with Rasa. Thank you very much to our headline sponsor Rafeh as ever know this week. I'm gonna mention black Friday. I'm sure you've got feelings thoughts. But black Friday Lionel. But it's a good opportunity to grab some Rafeh gear up to forty percent off from the twenty second to the twenty sixth of November. So that's from Thursday, we're recording wedding state. The twenty second of the member I was at my by this morning, actually on looking at what is going to be available on on. This is not me, you know, making a plea for for freebies or anything like that. In case anybody gets the wrong impression by I realized after Mary this morning, I'm gonna have to get some some good wind through gloves. I'm looking set. The Marino hats a winter. Caller, wouldn't have gonna miss this morning. I must see very very chilly. Indeed. So maybe I'll be maybe if you're looking for Christmas present for me Lionel. Rafeh dot CC a black Friday gallon there and pick up a few win thri. Tim's please. Thank you very much. No, guaranteed on that rich. I have to say I mean normally well normally we don't buy one another gifts at Christmas. But have you received your your raft down jacket yet? Explore jacket. Yeah. No haven't received it by calories. What are solved? You know, this has been this has been a dreams come true spin loan campaign that you've wage. A fiddle enough on the pug cost you never know what might have been. So looking forward taking delivery of wonder what color of choline extreme. I'm gonna wear that to a podcast soon. You can even let you wear it is it late for me to ask for one. They look great. Miss the buzz on the subject of explore line. Oh, yeah. We you released episode one of explorer last week, very very good. It's had a really good response from people different vibe to but I really enjoyed a especially enjoyed Richard Abrams. He to come the transcontinental race and didn't finish it. But quite philosophical really in talking about what you've been through. And I find that really quite an interesting even moving in places into view. And I think that that was exactly what explore these sorts of stories explore has been designed to to showcase. The response has been amazing. I mean, we've had so many emails and tweets from people suggesting events that we should cover stories. We should tell in future episodes of suggestion this morning. Didn't you Dade Richard? You sent a text saying would you like me to keep an audio Dario of my one lap ride around Richmond park. I mean that is on the long list, but it's really quite close to the bottom for serious. I don't I don't think we'll be doing that one no offense. But we looking for a little bit more a little bit more challenging than you. Putin around Richmond park. Bushy parkas. Well, well, we have had some great suggestions. I mean, I should say is one is kind of in the bag in the kind at being edited and put together, polished and honed. So we kind of fill up for series one series to keep you suggestions. Coming Email this contact at the site can poke off dot com on Richard Abraham's interview, you mentioned which. Yeah. The thing that the thing that was when he was talking about describing the moment that he sort of stopped caring that it stopped mattering to him. Whether he whether he went on whether he actually got any further, and I was talking to Mike broad with who is man who broke the land into Jonah groups record earlier this year. He did that in June record stood for a long time since two thousand one, but he broke that record. And and he was saying he really aren't into fide with you know, the mental battle that goes on in the. Mind when you're trying to just keep keep going. Sporting. Don't try and cheap and my explore series with your Punia. Leaser inspiring stories by by people whose great. I love it. So it's an Hannah trip. Are they the anchors there for explorer, and what was coming up this Friday this Friday, we are going down under to Australia. We have got Rupa Guinness rich, you'll know really well from the two of the front pressroom one of the characters of the press room, one of the nicest men in the press room. People may know rooks voice from another podcast cycling tips podcast. He's appeared on almost certainly recognized by line from newspapers magazines and the internet over a thirty year career covering professional cycling. He he's trademark is to wear bright, colorful Hawaiian shirts. He's got different one every day. It seems and he wrote the Indian Pacific. We'll race the Indy pack which goes from free mental nip earth in Western Australia, on the way across Australia through the deepest AVI outback to Sydney, and that was the event Mike horn, the founder of the transcontinental were killed in in twenty seventeen. In the event was stopped. But Rupa and others wanted to go back and start again. And and and complete the ride partly to honor the memory of Mike whole, but also to complete the challenge they set themselves. And I mean, I've known Rupe along time as a a very kind of upbeat positive character, and he is an upbeat positive character and interview and upbeat and positive, but there was a real surprising for me something that I just didn't know about him one of the reasons that he wanted to completely challenge. And you talk about moving that was that was very moving for me and the other person featuring in the episode is a man called Ali broom who rode from London to Brisbane in four hundred twelve days. Now, he had a reason to do that. And a philosophy has developed out of it. And I really enjoyed talking to him. So does at a two subjects in this week's episode of explore will while we're plugging things just before we hear from. Adam blythe? Let me mention our final friends special of twenty eighteen it's up. It's quite interesting because we opened up a little competition to our high donors, we when you become a friend of the podcast. You can you can Chuck a bit of extra money into our entire Khan. And those that pay hundred pounds to become a friend of the podcast who support we obviously hugely appreciate we're invited to submit ideas for a friend special, and we had quite love submissions. We went through them in France, we recorded that that discussion, and we picked on idea cemented by Stephen Harris to make a special episode on the title is how to retire, and it was looking at the subject of retirement and high writers at prepare for that. And how they cope with it and highly back on their careers once have stopped. So lots of interviews in their Stephen Harris, guess editor. And he's quite involved. He's been. Right involved in putting together as well. But we've got five being counsel IRA got my him and his approach retirement that Steve Cummings who starting to think about what is going to do in the future. We've got Chris Hoy retired a few years ago with Tom Villars who was forced to retire little bit early. Who else? Have we got line? I'm sure we've and Tony Fletcher who is absolutely fascinating on on the subject and talks about it in a way that nobody else did the rejection that you feel when you have to retire because he he pointed out, the nobody some athletes, you know, like to pretend that they've chosen their retirement dates, and it's all on their terms. And he's the reality is the sport rejects you, and it's very very painful, and I find what he said, really interesting. So that will be next week or do you mention Fabio Shara? I did. Yeah. Since you him. He's interesting as well, actually. And that's coming up next week. And it's it's been really good fun to put that together and say, we're very grateful to all the friends of the podcast and their support helps us keep going as well, we will be opening the two thousand nineteen friends of the podcasts scheme, very soon. We've got some initial episodes come in. They'll be the grand through diaries from the Jere the tour and the voile ter- from all of us read and audio book fashion, they'll be available from early December. So stay tuned for details or not. But as I say final episode at twenty eight thousand series comes next week, and you can still become a friend of the podcast at this site, cling podcasts dot com enough awful. From us Lionel show crossing them Blyth we met during the London sixty a couple of weeks ago here is out and Blyth you're going to the world tour. How many teams have you? For now, you're say written for lotto before but. Not feel heading the world tour. The main thing I'm excited about. But I think also being in lotto when I was first in lotto, you never realize how good something is. So now's I now is Neo pro everything, you know. We'll go to you probably think this is amazing this shine brilliant looking back when I laughed mine. It was a cool team. It was. When I was Neo pro-life Horst was KC Evans study. I he was will chump as well finished when they were around. And then joining him when Phil was basically is prime yet the enemies in. Yeah. Yeah. Best years of my pro-career. Really? So to go to the fresh start think where my career is. Yeah, I'm excited. Scared. Unusual to go back to former team not many writers to move come about is this train. Really? I was I never had a contract without clip blue originally for this next year. So I was always looking for contract, and it was run D'amoto. Speaking, Ben, Ben swift goes out trading with China about contracts. We're looking at a time and Ben said to me, oh, you should try speaking and Caleb coats. And he's you know, he's Joey nab he hasn't really lead out seem so with green edge before road with Caleb a little bit. And I just give him a call. And I said, oh, that'd be any space and said, I think it'd be good. If you could. Pulled and spoke to spoke to the team. And that was it really. They welcome in. So just to get contract bull. So yes. To show them. I'm worthy of another year. Hopefully, going delay news team to riding with Delaney son-in-law son-in-law yet. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Decaf same from Caleb. Oviously not, you know, they'll be quite a few writers who, you know, managed to salvage something off to the collapse of blue. I mean, he's lucky game of musical chairs in a lot of ways and everyone has made to have. I know I think it's a hard year. I think cycling Jen was getting harder every year without a doubt. But I think this year with the UCI in the teams onto a by the way is ridiculous is making teams the numbers, you know, if they can tell you the team from twenty eight ride is twenty five save money, pay some bigger riders. Why wouldn't you do it? But the same time if you got two teams clumps in which I think was this year with CCC management BMC rods on the Mark. And you know, if there's will ride is looking for a contract, it's going to be even harder procon Irizar. Alright is to get a contract. So it's a brutal world of cycling is good. As is a lot of the time is to be apart of I'm where it worked out for you. You know, there's another British rider James shore who had these two years. The star of his career, and there's actually gone out the exit of the same team. I mean, staying in the sport is hard, isn't it? It's not spoil sport. You got somethin' to stay in this Bulla. But I think nowadays really you need to be really good. It's not really good. But you need to be good something on B average, everything you need to be a good domestic you. Need me? A good lead up on you be a good spin eight good climb. Econ be he's he's Orion that you need to be good at one thing. Even if that's climbing, even if it's helping someone into apartments climb you need to be good at one thing. And I think a lot of guys is average without being awful. There's a lot of people that are really good at everything. But not really really good at one thing. So I think that's the way cycli- go in now, and you can see it more and more in. She watched the tall you call it. The guys lychee run-ins bomblet climbs job. Don't you guys just doing the lead up job done? Whereas before you've got guys it commend to the toll and the three or four different jobs where you don't really see it. Stay agents. Actually, counted your US P O talking. I'm Sam Ican. Comical, I'm really is hiding in the and shouldn't for Caleb keeping him out of trouble getting them in the right position with minimum energy, just using his loans econ and hopefully deliver him in not sprint yet. Say good morale as well that simple twelve in in any team. Really? I think I'm good for keeping the team beat which hoped I'll do. But yet I will be the lotto to help Caleb win bike races Yar good as well in in bunks sprint scenarios. We've seen you up there in lots of races over the years winning some of them you almost won the world title, maybe and maybe tummy. A bit later, but you can clearly handle yourself and those in the situation, you're you're talking to join the London sixty as well, and you do have a background the try this maybe takes us right mind to the beginning of your career while I was amused to hear that you were you've been training for the London sixty with the British Academy. Because of course. But with a real diet of, you know, Madison training underwrote ailing worth. Yeah. I guess, you know, given the this is the rule you now have as as guy can really handle himself and handle his bike. You probably know again. Maybe as you said about Lofton, not realizing what good thing was you look back a bit of the British economy with a little note. You don't know is really is really odd. I don't it's all I I was on the British Kadhamy for a short period of time. I'd say my craft was going back. This is like full not stuff is different craft. I'd say, but I think going back to when I was talent so talent he might join the Yorkshire squad. Whatever that was and it was filled west on Johnny Clegg. And obviously, they were very good Tri riders quite experience. So I think going onto that on so westie rarely filled is he taught me a lot about truck riding. And the nice thing with him was he was ju- still on the bike. So he could jump on the track. I'm really not show you how do things, but if you go on a motorbike, it's a lot easier for someone to be next. You want to tell you a ride it rather than and urea telling you, how do it. So I learned a hell of a lot from them. And then when I was on the academy. I was on it for I think when I was on the I was technically on for three months by spent three weeks in the house houses, I was a lot. So I've nothing to thank very shocking floor about the academy. But before the. So. Yeah. Well, why do they not win? It did work for obviously a lot guys. I just think I wasn't sue. It's you know, I think a lot of APL the economy works and a lot of people it doesn't work for them. And for me that time I seventeen just moved out from parents, obviously. And you know, you moving into into fly space in the middle of follow failed in Manchester, which is shoot in central lease of life. So of you free, and we moved in with two of the laws all the lots in like, ten minutes way in the house and everything, and it was just so more overwhelm with being with the lots of them being you'll hear on the economy solo thing, and I think so took over a little bit. As more more interested to be social with everyone rather than just really trying to knuckle down other still young so in the he wasn't I wasn't enjoying it. But it was just I don't think I was the right fit for that. And I knew in the back of my head, and I think what Ellie with who's the coach of the time. Yeah. We think great. Then we got along fine now. But we just didn't see eye to eye, basically. So it was I was almost fine in that really enjoy school. Looking back. Looking cut said time, it didn't mind it because it was just what you do in school. You stuff that you don't know any different. Yeah. I just wanted to be felt a bit late school. Neat. Maybe not, you know, you could sky from school econ sky from the economy caught me truck, shushing you. Disciplined. There wasn't there. And was was the disciplined something that you struggled with the resent. All it wasn't a discipline all never late for trunk sessions. I was never lay on the pike. Did all the train. And it was just all the little bits around it. You know, it was very moist. Like rod style was quite army style. It was quite block come why. And I'm not really black Amonte kinda gone quite late quite relax, which didn't fit not face the economy. Really? It's funny because we mentioned before we recording Lionel was again six and two thousand seven which I think you one with that. The roster them six a few weeks later over I think over just after Christmas on you were supposed to be. Can you you weren't there swift was there Bremen's Pete broke his collarbone so people call bone and then swifty to step in when I was remembering in Rotterdam. No did it with someone else ended. So you left the economy by not point my of done. I did a few stints in that. Yeah. I guess you weren't disappointed but claim I guess already. It was starting to be astonishes as a pathway wasn't a did you feel? No, I think it was too early to be a pathway. Now. Think the guys that have come through the economy would always be where the all now that just being speed. It'll technically Khaf he definitely the economy has helped in g he's helped him. But then like they still be as good as today just taking him a little bit longer together. Especially gee, I think you'd I don't think you'd wanna toll without being on the economy, but still good bite ride is still gonna win races. And that is still being picked up by someone. He's just the British cycling academy helped push the long and make it easier process for them. I think so tell us what you did after leaving the economy because you'll see ended up in Belgium, but what was your what was your path there? So this is fun. So I went to Balaji seventeen left home fluent, Tim Harris, Phil Griffin. Actually, you're used to run pin Avello in the UK. He he called him seen you go missing singly idea. Can you help him out give him a place to stay? And I applied for rain fund. Time and they declined. So they said, no, you don't you don't get in any size plenty out because they left the didn't have anything to do those about. So I applied for the CTC funded, and it was two hundred fifty a month to Tim's. And it was two hundred fifty credit month's rent convenient. Exactly, exactly. So. Yeah. Just went that on Tim knows rod really well. So all really hard to say balmy wasn't great thing. So say my K many was expecting this. You know, everything rolled it said about me and moved him and Tim Koplowitz. It was gone. Tim's one of my best mates today. Still, you know, he's brilliant gone. We really get along. And he saw of introduced me to the world. I mean now really and he taught me at a time. I didn't really know what he was trying to teach me or anything. But he told me a lot. And I remember when I did my first year that I was in a little team. I remember like all Chizzy to Jisr too. Shoals and that was it. Nope. Bike. No, nothing number. I three months living in Belgium. I had an old trick bike from when I wrote for SIS before the contemplate on some reason. It's not on the top. There's a big crack in it. Obviously, I couldn't couldn't afford to buy new ones under fifty damone. So for another month and a half. I wrote with a knife still puts an IFE duck tape to the top job to try and stop it bended. An eventually I won't one race on with it light. And then Griff, oh, sent me an old Parrella just a second. I'm pin Avello and spent the rest of the year on not. But this is a difference between the academy these as and I think that's why is it good thing. But it's also about the thing for the young lodge. Go and see Cottam, Ian, you're a professional straightaway. Everything. Now, you got physio, you shoe fit ends, you you name it. They've got access to it got Belgium. Well, if you've got you've got two hundred fifty quid pay your rent, which and then after that, you know of any. Exactly. So after that. So when I was living Belgium NAN, I wasn't getting any more money. So Tim, basically said you need to go win races win races pace few food that pays for everything you pay pace your life, basically. So he's just like list his big calendar. We'll his wife did joss. She listened big kind of just go every every week. I'd go race full-time week fuck owed five times ever not brought me on so much. Let me raise taught me I race in Belgium. And you know, I go into it. Then in my the fish. Yeah. I think there's like last two months this is and I was getting good. I was winning quite a lot. I think I wouldn't like six masses in Belgium or something very renowned guy called Gish met. I don't if you probably will have kindercare masters in Belgium. He was famous for winning line to most co messes in one year in Belgium, fifty two awesome thin birth not knowingly he'd pay right off. So this is one of the thing. Tim taught me get to a mass getting a break with Casement full through them to your work, and they'll probably of your. And I remember doing I think it was like two weeks worth a co messes if you made much like five thousand off a key Smith. Which really, you know, you didn't have the money to pay fair whatever it was and just doing them races. You know when you live in. And that was how I vote for. And that's what Tim told me. I remember this day team telling me cycling's business. That's all is. That's all it still is to this day. You have to remember that. It's not, you know, in this sport because you are economy yet your next she'll ride your good right of you. All you still have to be good after member this business, everyone in this bike business is here to make money. And that's all it is. And it stuck with me. And that is what it is state. But going back to the academy. That's what you don't get on the academy. You don't learn that you don't do that. And I speak about Jimmy shore early. I remember when he moves to Belgium. He didn't do one single Combes. He's really good still is this day didn't go into a single coma for his own part UNITA team races. And you know, we might learn a little bit about to be selfish, and by racy line out flick, a few riders era in there and say, you know, Jimmy you got this job to do today. And yeah, you do it. But you remember the day after you might have a chance, you know. So it's not saying that you wouldn't be in this position. But you'd lie. My learn a little bit differently on how to race as such. So so Tim and Josh's kind of teach you about the jungle in how to survive in the jungle within a safe overall environment. No, you got somebody to talk to about it a home away from home and with him, especially he was he no knows a lot of people speak Flemish in. It's just mainly lifestyle living with Tim and after and you keep I remember one day care center. XP expert Tim's chair business not gonna paint Chaz for like fifty quit for the days are loaded chairs for him day, often get back on the bike. And yeah. It's just the way it was you saw of keep. Yeah. Very different modern days. I'd say they'll be silicon lots of writers you are actually living in their in their host not in the other hosted two. Yeah. I spent two fish year and a half living with Tim, Tim and joss eventually be with me. I think federal for me. And then I went to live in another house round the corner of as and it's just you got few people coming and going usuals commend, and if few messes drinking who else was there the same as you. There's a diet guy called Dan shunned who who is now Joon Rossel's husband, John shandra? Sorry. He was baby came in. I in at the time Lizzie here's my girlfriend. She lived every now, and again, and there is I can't really recall, Tim, KOMO training with Israel. He had two stories. He said the training that you did as a group, and and sometimes with him involves was pretty fool on. And you know, when it came to sprinting for signs, and so on it wasn't unheard of for that to be, you know, crashes elbow. Yes. Gotcha. The main thing with Tim is you wouldn't say this journey wouldn't make take you out. You wouldn't tell you how you're on the bike them. They would be a fun ride. It wouldn't be. This is a problem is a power is real. Every you go on the bike. You just write ride along east sprint towns. Sprint for the province sign. You do all this. And it's been fun. Having fun technically, which you look back on and spinning townside now is doing an actual effort. And if someone said she on piece of paper, you have to go on to six undo six prints out on the bible. Tim sprint for twenty town signs wouldn't even think about it. It's just so taking their Java is being serious, very serious still. But at the same time is just good fun. But yeah, we have a thing called death ridge in valuing a little ridge in the middle of the road on the side of the road caused catches millions of people year, probably, but yeah, never get down the ridge on towns thing. But yeah, he's flick Madonna rigid few times, and there's been a few crushes for towns for sure this was a competitive thing we went out, and we were. Yeah. Race it. Cycling team cars, the back of the pack flees said PK, they're the voice of race radio. Tertre fronts, reminding us to tell you that this week's episode is sponsored by ship station nine ship station, North America's number one e commerce shipping software is also available in the UK. Another holidays are almost here. The online selling is going to get crazy. If you're selling online, you want to get your orders quickly and keep your customers happy. That's where ship station comes in manage ship. All of your holiday orders from one simple online dashboard. But it's not just Lionel for bake companies is that you are user ship stationed yourself while I'm a publishing mogul. Oh, yes. Sorry forgot about that. I was just gonna say holidays Christmas come on his Christmas. Isn't that everyone? Everyone's looking to buy stuff. I'm just loved Christmas. I'm just reading what's in front of me, Lionel, that's fine. That's fine of. I've going to say one of the one of the downsides of this time of year is the number of orders dispatch, whether it be to individual customers have order things on my website or from the big wholesalers who stop books and then distribute them to you know, Amazon and bookshops and all the rest of it. So sometimes I'm sending out one book time sometimes box book. Sometimes it's large consignments books. If things are going really, well, but ship station enables me to basically put everything only one place. So I can the right courier for the right job. You hooked up to Royal Mail. Hermes DP d DHL UPS FedEx and more. And basically once you oughta comes in you select the right career for the job, you print out on the labels and pretty much not say it. So it's a one stop shop for dispatching stuffing. Hooked up to my website, which is run by squarespace. I think it hooks up to own the Bank, you know, website. So whether you're selling on your own website on EBay, or I'm assuming it makes it really quite straightforward. And well, you know, me rich, I'll get flagged Dona when things are complicated and going wrong. So I like the simplicity of it. That's for sure. Well, as listening to podcast, you can try ship station free for thirty days post gas special bonus when used the promotion cooled cycling to take advantage of this incredible offer just visit ship station dot com. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in cycling that ship station. Don't come then, enter the promotion code cycling ship station dot com. Get shit done backyard and Blyth, and then you turn Pru in in Belgium with lots of yes, we said earlier, how was I mean bigger step up was when you made a looking back on just incredible. I did in the team. Spoon with a knife tape bike basically, and then I went into like a feed team technically lotto and yet the end of that year. I was just I share did a few Italian races with Cadel when he was world champion still which is pretty cool. And then they signed me after that. And yet just going into the environment in twenty eight hand was she'll was the live hostile is. They're still so it was very quiet old school Powell, Jim which I'm thankful for say. They were my best years as appropriate was juiston time twenty eleven wherever start getting mortared. So it's like the very last year. I'd say of saw the old school era of cycling which year, it was very cool to be just upon the transition. So you are an old school cyclists. No yourself. No, not really I tell you got. I don't know. I don't know what I've grown open cycle. And I think when I was pro term pro it was just thought lost air. So I kind of understand a little bit. But you can't be an old school cyclists anymore. You have to be more than you have to have a power. You have to have a heart rate on you have to have trade impeach and all that stuff. That's the way cycle. It's gone now. So yeah, I don't think you can be an old school ride. I'd say a really old school ride is Alexander Kristoff still. He still goes out does the big eight nine hours per even become in modern these days. You know, he's people are still doing training today to come in modern is not old school anymore. And you seem to for friendship with Philip Gilbert. You went off to be with them as well. Yeah. Again to just click because you're quite different types of writers. But what was it there that someone always Neo pro that they took me into the classics there just goes, and the first classic did was and it was it was a good day is nice day out by just did my job is just to protect failed. Right. I can protect him for as long as I can think of did a good job. I must've been good jokes. The next week. I was in Flanders. So we when did and I just basically helping me run the pellets on. I think it's rare that you find a guy that you have confidence in where you don't really have to think about stuff. So I was guide to fill and. Yeah, that's how it came around. Really? And we just got along. Really, well, and that was not not was his incredible year. Twenty eleven eleven twenty twenty ten pretty good year for him as well. Studying body. I think at the is eleven is unbeatable. What was that like to be around somebody who is in that sort of form? And really at the top of the sport full case really way. You can look funny you're gonna raise and. Literally every race. He stepped into worn. Our we did occur mess and. We're gonna break. It was like a break of twenty. It's just like a local pro mess, and I was memory. I was in the pray with any is like a leisure out. Right. Okay. Here we go, and I remember it was like to Cates ago and those two callers, and we went into this is really tight corner. He went in I and given kid broke using quick stuff at the time. It's behind him that me, and he came out that corner, and he just kicked any Gump to the time. And he just got like twenty is. And that was it it like a full bunch sprint behind. But no one could Jimmy just held on for the win. And that was like. Mass the most running really good writers. But if you looked on paper, you wouldn't ever say Phil would probably win this race in via player, but not winning. And it's just like going into that how to help. How can you do this? You know, it's ridiculous. So that just stemmed from winning this this this this this and this to the point where he just like fills is another money prize money in the Bank is gonna win. This is just like. Saga? Not now. You know, if you know, you've got the good chance of winning so. Yeah. But then looking back on when I was you know, that was my second year pro be no not normal. But you just get used to it. Really? So. Yeah. Very very cool time to and then you went to see a very different type of team. I guess Gotcha resigned move. No that you regret making. Yeah. I do. Yeah. Time. I did it generally Phil was going there. And they offered me to go there as well. As I said, yeah, I'll come for show. And it was just here's an incredible team. Still is an incredible team. But yeah, looking back like I said, I didn't know how good lotto wasn't till I left, and that was the same thing is just absolutely incredible. You just don't you don't know until you've left it, really. So BMC was good experience. They really took on the trying to be modern team. Which successfully did I think, but yeah, it was just not I just couldn't ride as well. Lotto, basically there. So, you know, why I mean because they've heard as he said trying to become a modern team, and we've heard stories of them being quite rigid in terms of how hope people not having the lotto even to this day are a team where writers jail to express themselves individually more yet for show. I think the main problem was with BMC wasn't anything to do. The teams more myself in period of time in my life solemn to Monaco, then. Yeah, I lived my Uni is in Monaco impede quite good muni and regret looking back on it yet that was it at the time or oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Very valuable. Yeah. Great time. Yeah. I mean, you were a guest mixing think F one circles, and you start those people Jenson Button and people did they become friends and training partners. They did not as much training partners is just you know, you got this rich people in really rich people, and they were really rich. But you know, if you can afford to go then and it just gets the normal twelve you spend on radio or if it's three hundred four hundred five hundred euros. It almost becomes the norm and is not normal. What so ever in this day and age is not but back then when you're in good enough money to do the I it's just something. You don't really think about doing you carry on as usual? So is that because you think you're on our kind of a trajectory always going to keep going on. I guess yet. Of course, you there yet. But it's things come crashing down quickly. So yeah, the time it was never really something. I thought about still quite young and just riding my bike, which I love living on the Cote desert amazing gonna Jensen Bourne coal pull the rest of you know, is just very looking by you like if you told there. Story about Monaco like that. It's like, wow, that's pretty cool, which was very cool time. I just didn't commit enough to my sock in basically when I lived there. And that was it and not wasn't. Jeez. Anything other than myself? Really? Was there a moment? When you when you realize that, you know, was it then too late to change course again. No, really, I went from tonight after and I still lived at Monaco than it wasn't so much. A who is li- arc kept my act together this near there. It was just I was still happy. And I think that's all of really concentrated on this being happier. And. Yeah. Looked NFL. Then I went to green. And then from Greenidge just going to tin calls when I met my MRs now, and that was you know, starts calm down south down a bit. We had our party time together. But now, yeah, we call little boy and things have changed massively to more on the way to more on the way. Yeah. Stepping back to NAFTA. I mean, you must be aware that people on the outside looking down which set at the time. Did it feel like that? Yes. It did pay also felt like a stepping stone for me personally. I think you know, we look on paper anyone looks. He's going down two NFL stories. It's going to be in Racine ball. It's like going back to Jamaica secretaries business. You have to remember everything you do business inside. Clint. So if you win by Grace's people remember who will win bike race. And if you can win buying races bike teams always want people who can win a bike race not still committed. This day is still you know, if you don't perform you don't get contracts is no matter your age, and is not not miracle workers. So. Yes. And if te'o is sort of like just enjoy cycling again, I go into June, Chris, and I went back there with the mentality. If not with the mentality about I'm better than everyone here. And if someone's beating me they shouldn't be in me, I'm better than them. And I went back. So every race I did. And even if I was getting a kick in. They've got to be suffering a lot more than some as on them and for a while at the toll series, and I hated it. I can't kicking every week. And I was just trying to train through trains trains trains for all the time. So avail commit and then just at the end of it is going to the toll series, and I'm Reid London came around and we went into ride London. I was just happy to be back in a big race big raise amaze fifties. You'll better and everything I was not expecting to win not be good. But to win. No. And yeah, going into that is still to this day from the best race have written to myself. You know, just doing everything, right? Correct. I it was like, oh, I still could've second. Do you oversee knuckled down? I mean did that come though. No, no, no. I just raised a lot did law. Chris understand Joe's, FIS meals and Monaco, no little bit. By just the thing was then I enjoyed going on by a loved it. 'cause the. As now is doing it. I was getting better winning and not really made by writing so much easier. So it wasn't as knuckle down. Like, I said I wasn't expecting to win now and your good. It wasn't a case of I'm going to knuckle down and wind lows razors just loving going by can just crack on with it and get an on. I mean in in those when you're at BMC not performing as you as you were capable of performing did anybody take your site either on the team or someone like Tim take your site, and and have a word with you or a little bit to appoint it was just a case of did a little bit. But it wasn't so much. I wouldn't listen to them really is just in my own world. And yeah, I don't think whoever told them and get my together who it was. I wouldn't have taken it, really. It was just I mean, it's quite a familiar story. There's a law writers who've had a couple of great years and got the big contracts, and then not committed to in the in the way that they had to get to where they were. But these people very rarely come back, you know, generally. Ends badly. You got yourself back include world, not once but twice. Nine lives yet. Today. Really? I think like I said, I think if you're a good win. It's no I'm saying I'm gonna amazing pirated if you win race. Oh show that you've got something. I think there's always keep yourself in the market and making a living and business park racing. NF t oh, I mean, what did you know about them? What what did NATO stand for? And you what were your views on the guy with paying the Bill? Not for the ordinary is what it was. So. Yeah. Joan would still a friend Cilla. Very nice guys. Look, great guy. He was he just took me very straight with me. Use us a good life is good life had a lot of them of the pike as well. We had a great time together. And I think that's another good side of is that we really got only made life a lot easier for stay with his house with his wife is kids everything like that. So he's just a really nice bloke rarely, but yeah, even still looks after me and little ways, you know, make sure more right? Like so is looking back on that team. It was fun team. And it was very much. I made a lot of friends in rather than colleagues Richard make your point he came out with a well talk. I can't came out and go back into get on the two times. You've kind of come out these projects run by quite high profile. People have created a profile for themselves off the back of cycling. I don't want to say they were so Hobie projects, but they people putting their money into that Pash. Yeah. Something about those projects appeal to you. The time with John an NF te'o. It was a case of nothing. So go, John, I didn't have another contracts. And what you're it wasn't wasn't anything amazing. But you just offered me what I needed, and it was just a case to get back on my bike and enjoy and it wasn't wasn't about the money. It wasn't about anything getting back on my bike and have a good time, which he didn't. He made. Sure, I had a good time. And he never put pressure on me to wear knee. Always just wanted me to fun, basically and eat it up perfectly. And yeah is worked out for the best rarely and then after that was green edge, which is good phone after that what I really love with Rodney thing. I think it was a great team unlucky time in the team covers pulling out when I went in. So that was maybe a bit. Like, I don't know if it was if similar to your rule, lots of especially to heal birthing think of you you were signed to help Saigon. Yeah. Not I wasn't. It wasn't a my contract. And it wasn't really meant. That out songs just Zia will be to help in the classics, and you will be that help Petri a little bit. So yeah, I just went in looking forward really really excites in a big team massive team. At a time console is in SOG, and it was huge. And it was an experience. And I absolutely love that team is fantastic. All k- all the bikes. Everytime. We should really, you know, even ten cover in the owner of the team is mentally complained about someone salaries. What these minimum pay for this? And the he's not we compare these guys this motion go not like twenty grands worth of wine for dinner, and you like that's Hoffa minimum salary is you could not by pay someone a little bit more needs my money. Cost is supported by sciences sports. Scientists sports fueled by science. Thank you very much to our sponsor sciences sport for their support of the cycling podcast. You can still get twenty five percent off all your science and sport nutrition products. Go to scientists sport dot com and enter the code SIS CPI twenty-five, that's SIS C P twenty five this week's question for the scientists sport experts in this case bend Samuels comes from James west. They're cycling podcast. My dad is in his late sixties and still avid cyclist. But he's a bit old school in his approach to diet particularly post, right? Normally gets back from a morning, right? Twenty five to forty miles fourteen fifty mile per average, an ops for soup slice of bread and a piece of fruit for lunch, and then nothing until dinner other than a Cup of tea. Maybe I think his concern is Putin on. Wait and this impacting ability to go up hill at the reasonable speeds. Despite me point the eating enough will make him slower. Decreasing muscle strength. No matter how much cycling he does. He's not likely to ever start consuming sports. Attrition products regularly. Sorry, scientists fourth although exceptions have been known after particularly long, right? Or if the weather was particularly hot, he's always going to eat normal food. So what should he be eating for the rest of the day post ride to maintain slush improve muscle mass, while snow gaining weight many things James west over to you bedtime Samuels? The concern of digital wait game balancing training, former body composition Komar and enjoying his individuals and empower tweet ratio dominated sport. It's a question we gas the law when we have in additional factor here of increased protein requirements within aging populations of nutrition intake posts ride has the ability to significantly improve performance, y'all specific old maintain informers unimproved muscle mass protein feeling. The remainder of the day should not be compromised, and in particular, I seven portrayed it advised. He should be looking Scott three four high quality feedings throughout the day. So one with breakfast pre ride then to three settings for the rest of the day. Aiming for twenty eight grams of protein east time eighteen to balance of carbohydrate fought fruits and vegetables alongside this. I mean Greenidge you're there oversee just when you join the team it seemed like a natural fit in a way. From their site again that that was a team that it was before it became the team. That is not a thing with this grunter focus, and it wasn't really clear. What what it was a guess that your sense massively. I think there was. So there were folks on Kahlo because Kayla was getting good, but they're also focused on the aids because they were getting good and linguist and Garo was still in ariz-. Well is very much. There's very much a lot of riders which were capable of winning races say really to like looking dark negates is they can win Macy's Esteban's. He can win races bringing Gary when you saw situation Caleb. Right. So I think they just didn't have a clear picture of what they wanted to do. And they couldn't invest all the money into one thing when they had these amazing or the bike ride is. So when I was there. It was good was still very much an Ozzy team numbers. Well, there's a lot of these. There's a lot of stuff Steelers. But I think the year after they saw said, right? We need to have a clear out and start again, let's make our folks on the aces. What is not why calebs obviously, obviously left and how was it working with saiga? Well, did you get to know him? Well, enough to sit down and have a coffee with easiest what you see is what you get with. There's no beating around the Bush. He's not different to what you see him on. Camrys is very normal, very relaxed and a proper Bank. Crazy. You know, if you know you see on TV, they stay beaten a sprint. You on the domain hours seconds. Offering ways song go positi light be patient punch, the sea and just really have a tantrum for about ten minutes, and what writing should be not all well domain. Yeah. You beat me congress. It should like now, you you hate your finger and Cipollini used to be like, you never go across the line and beats when you swear more summit for be in which it's readies days. Everyone could put these in good friends that you don't have any enemies, whereas pack Leonidas enemies, but you you appropriate races. You know your competition. You made sure they knew that thing is it going soft. It's just different. Let's no chief. There's no boss in the peleton where someone comes along as time out anymore. It's just modern cycling these days, it's not far from soft. Really when I think about is very much full on full gas knives and time see it's just different. He started saying like an elder statesman. I know feel. The experiences. You've had you know, the teams that you've been on. There can't be many writers in the peleton who've redden for as many of of the world's best teams on with so many of the world's best writers. Yeah, I think so. And I think that's why I along with quite a lot of people can it's pretty much everyone in the politics in pretty much everything. But now, it's it's a nice thing to do you know, guys the grope in the same team. And they've got their friends, you know, being around him a little bit. But I think it's nice to be able to go and speak to pretty much anyone in the pellets have a general chat about them in their lives, and what's going on. So yes, silver linings? And all that what I guess if we look at your your career your ability. You seem to be able to do is pick a target and raise your game. I mean, I remember going to the wealthy last year. You know, your team got wildcards not was expensive. You told us in neem after team time I'm gonna I'm gonna win tomorrow. We're not just there to be in the in the bunch. You were you were confident you. Could win. And I think we were surprised I remember talking about at the time. We were surprised to hear such bullish talk. You hear very often the third. Two quick set writers head of you. You might have been disappointed with the time. But results like. No, many writers may be capable of doing. No, I got a kick in the next few weeks after. But noise, I think like I said earlier you got to win something you don't win anything. What's the point in being a by? Right. All doing something. Good. And I've always seen not you might you can cry nine percent of the year. If you good for ten percent a year. Because if you really are fridge for knives, and you end up being I'm vegetarian is one of them things. So I think yeah. You to be targets everyone does. But I think going into that well to I knew that that stage particularly that was like one stays I really do. Well in an after he was very thoughtful. It was a tough Weller. So I didn't really have many chances rows super confident in so. Yeah, you just call it go all in. That's why did for that day look leading come off with it. And I was yet pissed off at the time at say I didn't win by raising econ-. It's not like, I'm one of the best examples of mentioned earlier of you know, seeing what you can be capable of world championship in Doha in twenty sixteen. Wasn't it? Yeah. Twenty sixteen talk us through that finale because it was you in Kevin dish. They are right in the in the thicket things. Yeah. So fun. There's this strange on our anew. I'd be good. I was quite nervous before it says one thing. I can do confidently and say I can complete writing crosswinds and new that's why was there. Read those me and him that made insult from group. Luke quiz, the punctured Saad legislative split in. But yeah, it was just a case of is really fun on the great was only like think thirty was big at the time. So it wasn't like he was a parade after the after the Crossman split. You're literally just sit on the wheel try not to be in a way and try not to be in a try not to be in the wind. So it's really weird. It's like normally not situation you'd also is team. Because two of you find the biggest guys sit behind and then cover beyond me or cover in front of me. And I remember moments getting annoyed at me. I wasn't sitting with him all the time and did not about we should be with it. But at the same time, it's. Is really weird situation that you're the world's not from grew technically parading around the creek calls when you in this final we got into the final is. That's what you want me to do. He's follow me. Follow me. I said ri- you're gonna follow. He said saga are you show saga and we're gonna follow saga? All right. Fair enough followed saga of what do you see an opening on the left? Go left foreign to go. But don't kick too hard just like smoothly. Do it. I remember coming in my up beyond Ford just pulled up next to him on a looks in a look he's ever watched. This look back is nothing say anything new. I was the any east of star of the week. I wanted to go left. I want to go left because the way the cost when he's around. So Ryan if you went on the right nine times out of ten you would get boxed in she's always wanna go on the left to start going on the left round the outside. Commit didn't follow me. It yet. Swim off any second. He could've would any new. We could've have followed me in new. He would've won so. Yeah. Tough one almost the same time. You look back on it now. And I'm like mine, I should've just told him stay on weird to said follow may have some confidence which is hard to tell Carla is foster sprint other time. Probably still as he gets better. But it's easier say that when you looking back on it'd be nice, you know, looking back now, just gone mind. Follow tumble and follow him. Biggest guy there. Tearful Gus forever. Father followed him being still on his wheel might get round. You mean ever know? So it's one of them things in it. But looking back even if I'm sure anyone in that situation. Cavs there, you Cav hundred percents that grew you'd know come can win. So that's why I did and subtly didn't win but celebrates racer. One of yourself. Yeah. I think I could have got free. Maybe when maybe not top three. But yeah, how bowling with your world championship full Cipollini like full in for other Greeley in of the year. You were a British champion twenty sixteen Lear after twenty seventeen. So you beat common dish to to win that again. It's another example of on your day. You know, you're capable of winning. It's not the biggest race. But you're beating the best in the world. Do you still have I'm Bishen? You're you're still pretty young Mindy still have embellishes to to win a big race. What race you would want to show to be honest is it's not a case of what race at once a wing so many races. I'd like to win book. It's just being on the big stage, you know, doing them races. Where you're beating the best sprinters in the world that might be might be a run them Chipper in Belgium, nine Senate or the best spin is in the world of turned up to and you do that. But it doesn't it's not generally a race. Or it's more social who's there? You know, you could be you could have raised on the street and it's being covering kit. Lovey well up eight techniques token by tips. But you know, I mean, it's you can. You can symbolic. Cavs kills all the good spin is in the world. You take them now, and you beat them. It's almost like toward the by the by knives. And it's been a good result. So like, yeah, this is good. But it would be nice to go. The toll of a good crowd. Claire has it been hard being off that stage for so much of the last two years? It hasn't it hasn. I've never done the toll. So it's sort of don't really know of not being there. But generally in terms of the the racist blue being able to I mean, it's not being a week in week out, Dr of of the world tour racers, you found that struggle the fish. It was really good. We did other big races to devote which obviously amazing then this year. Yeah. Bake struggle. It was about the bike didn't help things. So you did the Reuters have any say in that overnight. Nothing you have to ride the equipment even with mich- giving over. The this yet given what you give an yeah. So we had no no saying it, really. It was just the decision was made. And that was that. We couldn't really do anything about it. So he just. And did what we could. It was just foul. Jim I've got nothing against punishment go in day in day out. And we were staying in one of the directors houses, which was great pace. Just your face. Is is almost like being juniors. You just be saying toll material most, which, you know, your professional team, you look at coffee this toll all these trading calms, and he's just one day after make your own breakfast after loaded dishwasher. And I know that sounds really Patsy for normal life. If you are in a professional biog- team, and you have to load the dishwasher come on. He's terrible. So yeah, that was the there is getting hard going to race him feeling like a junior and everything kind of chipping away at the confidence an infusion. My gosh, if you know happy on the bike, and you don't have of culture, you get you get a raise in nine people in the team, which is blow here we are. Again, you know in some day some race read like warm person would finish the race. And it's it's nothing to do with the performance training, essentially guys this year, all my numbers this year being and they ever happy ever. So it wasn't. I was creeping or anything like that. But if someone, you know, you're going someone's house, and you may. Economically in the morning before a big race or you travel, three hours to raise. We not say, no hotel twenty minutes away. It's all these little things where you just like, we're training so hard and trying to every time. Right. And this is what you do doing. I you just giving those this and this it is. Yes. Did you feel any extra pressure because being one of the kind of voices of the team one of the more upbeat characters to fail like you having chivvy other people along a bit as well. Fail. You try to help people along because you keep your morale high in these situations, and it's hard to be the voice of reason. Search it's hard to g people when you know things are really big crap. Prairie. So it's yeah. China's say something's not blind. It's black. You know, it's very hard. We were mentioning James show, you know, earlier star of his career and at this this big setback. But guess you're kind of agrees. I'm pool of persistence, and we're talking about the two of them when you think about it on a team might lots of wear your rule will be to help Caleb your ego. Very good chance would think of going to tour next year. I'd like to think so I really want to give a good Sean go, they, you know, get the good good start let season and really try and nail the first four months. And then you go from there. You know, I think I think will be the main thing is just to start. Well, got a good relationship with Caleb. Hopefully when some buying races with them, and then hopefully, not relationship can carry on a long term thing with him. So. Adam blind through nine lives in the north of England with his partner. Murder and pressure. Wins on the way. I mean is he a very different person to the adviser lived in Monaco completely different. Yeah. I just growing up. I've got is. Now, I've got more than myself look after I've got family, I need to feed and take care of win some bike racing some money, and yeah, I'm asking for friend. Hey, but how did you find the energy to ride a bike with a fifteen month old? I mean, I'm I'm struggling to find the energy to come on the train half an hour into London. Yeah. It's changes. Everything doesn't it. Just change everything. You just got off to my missus. She does she looks after a hell of a lot. I miss him. Like crazy at the moment. He's just growing scientists say a few words and on the other. So it's very hard, but bottle bottle. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's just quite selfish and away and it's a short career. So you got now, I know obviously, you gotta make make the most of it in the money while you Konin do the best you can to support them. But you'd given yourself a date by which if you haven't got a contract for next year. You would look elsewhere. Yeah. That's kind of the ultimate in growing up. I guess middle of outer refinement, not say, I'm gonna hang up my wheels and move on from there. You know, I think what he saw get to grips with that you saw ago. No, this is not good. You know, I don't feel ready to stop. And I saw convince myself I was stopping I looked you know, look I else I could do being a few people of job opportunities and things like that. Mine real wheels. So yeah, I was happy to get another contracts and give it another go, and you know, being in that situation this year. I don't wanna be not situation again for a good five six seven eight nine years yet. So yeah, got the most of it you thinking in those terms of, you know, going another on the bike another into your mitford property owned or. Yeah. For sure easy life, Biden doesn't sound, but it isn't easy life with John turbines in the room in the moment. And you know, like the the real world worked hard like we are impaired. Now, you know journal in bed until twelve o'clock calm down for launch track. It three of a massage around for a bit of a bit more tweet jump on the track lay in bed till ten in the morning. I mean in just not getting going beyond the deaths and into an emails and all that kind of thing last before ten o'clock. So yeah is hard spoiled very easy lifestyle. Really takes years to come to that realization. Could if twenty nine year old Adam bly the toll twenty two year old unemployed. I fake he wouldn't have believed it where the glass Rosaiah Muhanga hero, right? Blind speaking in London a couple of weeks ago. And well, Lionel you were there. But he was he was very interesting. We have grown to cover because you know, you realize speaking to just what a law. He's still quite young. That's the funny thing, but he's ridden for so many big teams with so many big writers, and as a real kind of up and down career and still, you know, a couple of chapters left to right. I suspect I think now we've done kind of establishing interview if you like. Laid out the the roadmap of Blythe career, so far it'd be really good to go back to him and and really drill down into specific years or specific experiences eat high because well one of the points, he made, you know, staying in the sport and getting a contract year after year, and, you know, having to go down step in order to come back up again that not all not too common know who slipped down often. It's it's it's a one way journey that. And so it says a lot about probably about a force of character and temperament as much of anything, you know, the the way that he is carved out a niche for himself it recognized by people doing the hiring. Yeah. I'm very interesting. His so pragmatic approach to which seems to have been instilled in him by Tim Harris, when he went to Belgium, but realizing that the best way to make a long career was to to have a a sp-. A specialty. But also to cone site cleaners business, and some interesting comments are in some, you know, maybe they'll be fans site claim that. Will really enjoy hearing that to some extent, but it's the reality for professional writers. It is their livelihood is a business and. Blythe is is one of the great survivors suppose, you know, as you say very unusual to follow the world and then go back headlines garden and didn't quite did that, but he he came and went hit a year at one point didn't they another another one? I was thinking is Larry warbucks this. Well, has he's twice following the world tour and also go back onto Kasur doesn't it because he was at BMC, then he joined I am cycling who weren't world here. But then they became world tour, they embarked Tykwer blue sport. And then next year journey to Oregon. He's the only other one I can think of his done that. Yeah. I think you make that point of what fans will make of of a professional talking in quite pragmatic terms about what is basically their job. I think Adam bly clearly enjoys cycling he enjoys the job of cycling enjoyed being a teammate enjoys doing. The the bulk of the work that that writers like him have to do. I think that that are kind of a fracture between enjoyment and the Roman survey. I think from the outside with tempted to believe that it is if you know romantic world, and and probably a lot of riders realized very soon or override is realize as soon. You've got to make yourself useful. If you're gonna stay employed. You can't you can't unless you're Warren bog AOL ride around fantasizing making days taking the days and blowing the dandy lines. Right. Well, we should leave it there for this week. Lionel will be with Daniel next week unless something happens between now. And then we weren't where we will be in cold. We'll we'll be rolling only forgot. Yeah. Of course. Sorry. We'll be back. Yeah. We'll be back. Yes. Apologies. And as I said, we have our friends special coming up next week on retirement. It's it's a two parter too, long episodes. But I think some really interesting part one is all is discussing through all the ideas that were submitted. And that was I listened by quite fun. There's Francois Tommaso in his next in the back of the car chipping in with his thoughts. And yeah, remember them. Yeah. We're doing our part one is going to be that conversation, and then Paul could idea. Yeah. Thanks. Well, she doing our our guest editor Stephen harasses, oversee the creative brains behind this. Stay from my concern is will people have made their way through this two part page before our war and peace Doyle, Brentwood, diaries diaries are coming together. And anyone who read our boot? We'll know this or style. It's the story behind the story. Each of us Donyell me, Lionel Francois and Orla Shinui the women's to kept diaries this year, and those diaries will form, well, they'll be the first four friends specials of twenty nineteen and they'll all be released before twenty nineteen even starts with so good to our listeners and friends of these four episodes only counted one or the new I guess why? No. Yeah. I mean, we want to deliver value for p. Debatable whether they count because they're so little cycling content in my. Feel like being shortchanged. Clean mine story. Good. The balance you'll be right? Then let's le-. Let's leave it there. And we'll be by next week. Thank you very much for listening. If you want to become afraid of the podcast, the cycling podcasts dot com, but the meantime, thank you. Thank you, Richard.

Tim Lionel Belgium Caleb coats UCI UK Phil Griffin BMC Adam Blythe Rick Delaney cyclocross Rafeh Dade Richard London California Australia Monaco Adam bly
26: Adam Blythe Interviews Owain Doull

The Cycling Podcast

39:21 min | 1 year ago

26: Adam Blythe Interviews Owain Doull

"You listening to the cycling podcast in association with Rafeh, the fastest clothing in the world tour, the home of cycling with character ride 'em what with rather in two thousand nineteen as they partner e f education fast and canyons throb. Hello, my name's which should Moore. I'm with Lionel Bernie. Hello, richard. And we are the leader man lying on wait. The the the engines in the league are trained for Adam Blythe and Owain do who is actually quite decent sprinter so sort of works, and this is the fifth episode of Adam blind interviews and he's chatting today to team sky writer owing through Welshman gold medallist at the Rio Olympics in the team pursuit who's been focusing on the road since then and was second in Kerner, Brussels. Kurna earlier this year behind Bob you angles, which is a very good result. Probably his best result as a professional on the road, so interested here there chat in our Caffey and near to where they live in Cheshire so crossover to Adam bly in the moment then line on. I will return at the end to discuss some of the points came up and. In their conversation. Perhaps also a little chat we could have a little chat Lionel about team sky and their pre pure start to the year mean windows second place at Kearney bustles carnage is she one of their one of their best results of the early part the season. But before we do crossover thousand by the must say a big thank you to Rafeh. The headline sponsor for all cycling podcast productions, and I must tell you about the new core cargo shorts. These are rappers entry level shorter should be updated to offer everything you need for every day on the bike to carry more ever the style of writing featuring the same and hugely popular pockets on the legs and back which were first introduced on the explore collection. So whether it's a spare gel on a mountain f or a camera on a weekend adventure carry more of the things at turn rights into memories, also checkout, Rafeh dot CC for the shorts and for the EF gone racing films, which will be released throughout the year quite few of those. Already there and subscribe to Rafeh on YouTube to get all the Afghan racing films. But without further ado, let's crossover to Caffey somewhere in Cheshire and hear from Adam bly conversation with owing do listening to special episode of the cycling podcast. Adam bly interviews. Right. So. Today. With me is do are you doing mate? Sorry, I've got a microphone so actually I'm instead of just introduced we're gonna ask him a question. I. It. We are Wilmslow where we both live. Now, you move from from fronts last year. I was enjoying it and joined the Sony. Manchester weather say not live there before. So so normal in it. Yes. So back in Manchester lived here for four years when I was eighteen to twenty two doing the truck stuff and then last kind of two years beam between niece and Cardiff. Yeah. I made the decision to move back to while move back up north is good. You can't fault. We really I think the roads are good trading groups goods, and I think yeah. Just works for me better. Rosaiah Losch Thailand fronts got too much of you may Eric. And that sorta like me. So. Buckman just now trading full-time got me in stunnerd lawless. Don't come out. But yeah, he's around train with. It's a life's going good from sun. So I win back from provinces which are just talking about. We'll move onto that. Yes. Some so hours after I win and also many people question did Luke give it you. Yes. Obsolete. President coming back from son to AUSSIE takes a lot worse style in early in the year name as you have to look after yourself and your off season and start up pretty early, but you have to win. It was kind of a worth it. Yeah. In terms of giving it to me. I think it was. It was a really good day. I think it was a combination of a couple of things we both made that move. I jump I go away. And then Lou kinda sat on the groupie I in modest jet across I waited for him. And then as soon as he got on start trauma, again, we're off and the first thing Luke said was you can have it. And th okay. Well, I'm not gonna say, no, I think that's just a sign of how classy Luke is guy. Obviously knows that that will mean a lot more to me than will for him. Make a bigger difference for me next year than it would him as well. And also, you know locked like that I'll give him not back ten times in the classics. So I think it all kind of even self out say, well, if you in the velodrome together, it's going to happen. Going to change your mind. But now it's good to see, and obviously you've been trained a little bit this winner. And for me, you seem to have changed a bit as a person. I mean, not in a bad way. In a good way that you've got a lot more professional this. When you were when you live two three years ago when you're on the Olympics officers a bit different than you, just do not the tracks of which is a lot different. A lot more spare time when you're on rose. Now, you're on you're not drinking. Yeah. I think what you say. I guess it's kind of just let that progression of growing up and just learning and find shoot in the right thing to do for you are, and I think those first couple of years with sky, you kinda get lost. And you don't quite know which direction need to go in and what stuff's important to work on. And that kind of accumulation of figuring stuff out on your own. I'm making those mistakes. And then brings you back to we need to do, you know, Paul that was moving back to Manchester. I'm just kind of realizing off see you have you have a talent for this kind of stuff. And it's about making the most of what you have. And the Bill is you have a wasting the time you have doing it Billeness. So for me, I kind of look sat down at the end of the end worked out while I wanted to do I wanted to chief what factors there were which was going to change to make the happened. So you have the the main thing now is focusing on the classics and being good thin carry on the progressive last year and then break into the team Spiga kind of saturation spots. So twenty grand tournament out with the team this year on simple question. Those things that you wanted to change the big things they just little things, and you know, going to sky when you first saw joint when you're Olympic champ straight out, and then straight into strength to sky was it all you expected sky to be I mean is probably the best team in a world out professionally and I think every team. So of spires to be looking at molecule gains on the other. Now is it is it looks like from the outside. Everyone knows what is imprecise knows what it's like. But few as a Neo pro coming off the Olympics. And that superstructure track program was it. A lot different is a lot more serious more structured, and like I said what were the the things to change this year down and look. Yeah. We'll get real serious was sold. This podcast is over a coffee. Yeah. It was it was kind of a lo a loss of expected loss of didn't really, you know. I think my first year with the team was a real shock for me. I think my pen decide is my I I was out in down under for the first race of the year, my pen, Dick's ruptured. I ended up spending a week and hospital out there. And then I've poisoning Bach. Not derail my first year with the team. And yeah, I think it was a big show go in from the Olympic stuff where you have such a focus on just literally one day. And that's all in your four years as good for the games, you good and everything's perfect. You know, where's when you do the road? You have to be good consistently every single day, and there were points in my first year with the team where some days I was really good and kind of doing while the team expected of me, and then some days where I was just off a cliff and nowhere near where I had to be out, and it's all about economic consistency over a year and being dependable reliable, especially team sky where. Every race you go to your job to do you told the weekend advance what you're gonna do? They know what to expect of you, and you have liver, and I think that's tried to work on this year. One of the things sat down with coaching thought about trying to do was get that consistency. And so the everyday I perform, and I'm just beat dependable. The thing with these days, especially when you're a pro you can never really bad anymore. You always go up because it's like these days if you don't do well, you might be kicked out of the next race because someone's always going to little bit. Then you so for me, it's just hard to try and stay on top of it. You know, you like trying to say if you did down on the Super Bowl you try peak? And then after that, you try and hold onto that form and then build again for the classics nothing to recycling. Now, it's not really you have to hit your massive peaks. But you'd never really get your Lowe's anymore. You always have to stay on that saw level. Just a little bit below really really really good. And that's I think that's harder than it was five years ago about pro cycling. So throwing it back a little bit right before all this in your Olympic champion. You were on the economy for twenty four. We just spoke about earlier and then onto I'm post. I mean, a lot of guys did that. But the academy's to like feed people into into. Kyle wherever and then you went away went to post and came back and root for weekends. I think it was how did all come around from going on the economy? You've got a lot of medals on the European chump? Never a world Trump which LSU about in a bit is. You think the right pass for your do? You think you should have stayed on the truck for longer and not guns one post and? Kinda direction. Yes. So I think obviously gone to the economy in the first time in twenty twelve that was good. And that I was kind of progressing through the the road stuff with I'm with tortillas while tall Britain and stuff. And then I think it was would have been not twenty fourteen year. The kademi rates was looking to let more limited. And I'd been going back on the road and kind of starting to think more about your career. I I wanna I go onto a massive kicking my first first year on the road and just so okay the trucks I'll just be like an ad like just be like like like berkey or edge. You know, just like kind of track career folks on that. I was like now the rose familiar don't have what as kind of just knuckled down to work and second-year, better know crazy results. Nothing like all all this guy's definitition probe just enough to make me think I could give this a notch. And I decided that to reach out to. Bogart's? Good absolute legend to be fair to him. Andrew try Joan I'm past and it actually happened. A really good time for me because that year we had the county will jumps on it was shit show absolute shit show. Like, the training was off everything wasn't right. I don't think as a group. We didn't we weren't superficial. We didn't have the best Bill to have a it wasn't anything. Crazy. I remember afterwards in the in the papers and stuff everyone's saying, oh, you know, the young guys will pay sets and stuff. But generally wasn't the truth. And so we did the there was backlash after that from from the program, and you know, talking probation potentially getting kicked off and stuff like that. And that stage I just thought you know, I've committed to the truck here a lot of work tart we've gone to a will kind of underpaid. We didn't quite get it. Right. It was altitude and we didn't perform and it wasn't just us. Young guys. You know, me John dip hours, and it was like. Guys who'd been you know, yet to well champions and Olympic champion in BIC intendant who didn't make selection. So you know, it was just a body experience all around we kind of went away from that. And I remember backlash and you know being under review and stuff, but I just saw stuff there. So I wanna go away. I'm going to go move to Belgium. I'm gonna focus on the road and get my hat down. I'm gonna forget all about this kind of stuff. So the ballot in my first year. I'm pretty much straight out, the blocks. One of the first racist Dade was tripping Masha toe which is really big stage race for under twenty three's in pal. Jim I think my past winners like Heyman Boonen a lot of classics guys big race in Stroud blocks wanna stage when the overall for you twenty three Flanders and kind of just all started coming together the roadside of stuff and adult stage. I was thinking I'm just gonna stop the truck. This is too much. You know, not happy with how it's going. I'm Nazi not good enough. But then not yet. We also have KOMAL games in Glasgow. And obviously, it's a big thing compete Wales. And I thought okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna give it komo's game to crack. And I'm going to try and prove point here. And I remember I got taken off. I had like a UPS I bike, you know, one of the superhero fast ones, they took that away from me. They put me back on a normal panoramic. Oh, and I remember after there, and I think in the IP straightway qualified all the British lads much slower. Bike ride for Wales. And and kind of did a pretty fast time, and I want to kind of start thinking again, I do actually have what it takes for the truck side of stuff. And then from there the opportunity came around with Wiggins to to join their program. I spoke of see it was good because bride was saying there and also my agent at the time under mcquaid was the team manager. And he said, this is going to be the idea the structure, you know, will support you for your road stuff. So you can do that. I will also support you Olympic side of stuff to join Wiggins at a really good year with them on the road like across UCI races one like a lot of races in like two point one point two and that culminate in third overall torpor and in the points jersey and everything which come without and. That's my sky contract. They were keen to sign me the season straightaways the Olympic sixteen, but they were really good. We made that they said you can hold on. I wanted to hold off here because I thought I don't wanna compromise anything for the Olympics of works to be in that position that the perfect route for me is to say with Wiggins. So they were really good with me. They said you can almost like the year you can sign the contract now. But you won't join the team till after the games which date and then. Yeah. Nami sky a waffle there. But as around shoot that I. Cycling team car. The back of the actually that's the voice of set PK race radio with the to the fronts to remind us to tell you this episode is sponsored by DNA fit who provide genetically guided fitness nutrition insights for training solutions and long term health benefits. Then a fit has helped fifty thousand people unlock their health potential through genetically personalized fitness and nutrition insights, Richard you're the fifty thousand first DNA fit customer, I gather we've been talking about your the results of your tests. But the one been looking forward to most is to hear the experts talk about your response to alcohol and caffeine. I may have some insights on that from traveling around the ground the. The will. Last week. We heard of course, from Tom Lancashire the Olympic middle distance runner who is my consultant a DNA fit, and the I couldn't should've been Chris Hoy. And if I focus tracks his teams that we would never heard of Chris oil heat kind of said, and, but we also need to else my DNA tasks seem to indicate in terms of my capacity to increase my view to my -bility recover from training and susceptibility to injury. And we looked diet on any intolerances. I might have also told me as you say about my response to our call and caffeine, and I was very interested in this. So here's Tom Lancashire again. Found out. With vets on your age shell plus Trump would just goes. But it's more of an effect of this new fall in stock Greek weather is increase benefit from our hope obviously on his change. Even if you're, you know, there's no if there is a benefit we still say if you're going to drink drink in moderation. Well, what we tend to stay out of this experience. If you're slow the top allies like yourself, it actually needs that you tend to get drunk more quickly because cooling in your street breaking down quick visit consuming it generally speaking slow monopolizes actually get drunk a little bit more quickly caffeine. You. Okay. Well, it's good news in the Senate face your fast metabolize, which means the risks associated with excessive caffeine intake, reduced speed of drinking income today is healthy good news lately. Like coffee. To celebrate with a Cup of coffee and going win. Yeah. Well, he maybe like a what you call it an Espresso tedious. Get it. Coffee, so very encouraging news there line shouldn't affect our grand tours too much. How expert on to those two substances? Yep. I as I said there I went and celebrated with an Irish coffee, and no I didn't. But there is a disclaimer at your genetic makeup is only one part of the picture is not a method of prediction or event, find talent DNA fit focus on personalized approach your training nutrition, giving you the tools to reach your goals and genetically match meal next plans than genetically match meal an exercise plans give you guidance Termine fact from fishermen it comes to diets or trendy exercises. The is the market leader and helping people unlock their health potential genetically personal fitness and nutrition insights, I finally starting up to the the fitness programs. He get daily Email with your your your plan for the day. And also, the the the meal plan as well, and the Mediterranean diet is the one that's been recommended for me, which is good news. Of course. So yeah, it really really interesting l'exercise very easy to send off the swab with my DNA taken from the gums in my mouth and get results back in the. Yes, it's been a it's been. 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There's food and drink including our bar live acts. My sinuses and much more event is the oldest and bash charity bike ride in Europe as forty four years old this year. An anyone who's aged fourteen or over can take part on the sixteenth must be accompanied by. Now, they'll entry fee is forty five pounds under eighteen hundred feet is forty pounds. It's fantastic route and the famous hill towards and is of course, Ditchling beacon, you can get five pounds off with the code Brighton. Five brightened five for five pounds off on as I mentioned there line on the we are entering cycling podcast team that makes it sound competitive isn't very much. It's not competitive, but we're really looking forward to that. You may rose Manley on some of our producers. Yeah, it's gonna be a great day, isn't it? Hopefully, the weather will be good and the route will be challenging enough. I think for for certainly for me. I think the moment fifty four miles long seventeen miles of own completely claw. I roads Ditchling beacon is no picnic, but we'll be saving picnic for the beach. Anyway, went ways when we finished, but it's a real sociable another set previously. I wrote in one thousand nine hundred dollars fourteen and my plan is to dig out my nineteen ninety bike which had restored a couple of years ago. I need to check out. It's going to stand up to the rigors of carrying may to the coast hug flea will. But either way what everyone writing I will be there, and you can be to listeners if you sign up be h f don't or don't you K slash l two bay Tuesday. I one nine and to the code Brighton. Five at Brighton on the number five, and you get five pounds off your entry. Or if you'd want to sponsor the sunken podcast because we'd love to raise as much money as we can for the British heart foundation because I do fantastic research and support go to just giving dot com slash the hyphen cycling hyphen podcast. We're hoping. To raise a good feet thousand pounds for the British heart foundation. I forgot about didn't you get offered as well. After your ambushes a contract with Direct Energy. You look back and saying. Convinced pecan French by now, convenience snails might. But it's something, you know, you you still think the timing so of unsure about the truck. So he just thinking while this is the chancellor can go for and did a Macquarie's my as well today advised say, no, you shouldn't do it. Or was it just you off your dog? I don't want to be in a French team. Director dodge the lie. Like back then to buffet was. It was actually under your car. I think it was the name of that. It was Europe car, and they were still will tour the time. We'll to offer stuff is quite a big thing. And I was I was through you twenty three so one year left and in my head. I was thinking I was thinking you only have all the good guys turned pro off the three years or two years. No one's not good. After you. No one gets good contract at four years. You kind of like last chance saloon is really out to do. So it's pretty set on it. And I was really an Narin about AFC big move. And I didn't know how they with my truck commitments. And why I wanted you on the track of the games? Unfortunately, the whole Wiggins came around so yes, spoke to mcquaid and had probably the best decision. I ever made. Because obviously that led to me then still been Muslim over the truck stuff the flexibility to do all the altitude council the World Cup's on then. Yeah. In the end, let's go mantle my comfort with sky, and I. Here with Wiggins when I was kind of growth folks as well. With just such great year just read eleven race and get results and on. Yeah. Kind of one of the best decisions. I made stay in you twenty three for a longer year. I think you just let a lot when you adopt level you a race small and win. And yeah, it was really important for me. Looking forward to future you go. We spoke only say about the world's my does you call two medals in the late wrote a thing of you. You've got the team time trial. Bronze. Let's say. And the road. But you've never been Trump on a truck either Olympics next year, you look into get back on the track you thinking, maybe I'll have a little sniff it out. Olympic gold again on on, you know, before the world and the build up phase out something you thinking of fully set on the road now in trying to trying to make it's not make you career. You all do already trying to, you know, commit everything into road while and look back on a lotta ride is do, you know, people Elliott, especially jobs back on track to look into that. Or just full commitment for the road. I think that's the thing with trucking roads kind of you look at it. And you think it's either how you want to be remembered. In terms of your career in the second world, or in the UK kinda sporting world. And if you if you if it's important, the u k kinda stuff than the truck is everything because you know, it's Olympic medals games. After game the games that repet- repetitive side of it. Whereas in the second world, you know, the special in the road. There's so much more. You can do I think for now, I think I've done the truck once of kind of got metal in my pocket and everything which went with it. And I feel that if I went back to the truck it'd be taken pretty much take a year out of what I did on the road. And I feel that was a massive difference for me like I might twenty fifteen was really good on the road. I was like I said third at Burton Brady up there in high kinda races on then sixteen. I think I did maybe twenty or thirty race days just full commitment for the track. And obviously it went really, well, you know, see Ryoko medal world-record Yukon for much more. But then knocked into my next year my first year with the team. I hadn't raced much on the road. I hadn't done. Many miles are impacted in my first year with the team. I don't think it was the same actually failure. If you look at Lear, he did similar know, full focus and sixty on the Olympics and the star seventeen he wasn't actually dot goods. And then he really sought to pick up to the back end of of seventeen. But the he was really struggling. And I think if you go back to the truck, especially this day and age of how fast and how powerful and the commitment. It takes the it's pretty much taken. You take a step back on the road. I think and you know, I already to kind of pro as it were relatively late Twenty-three because decided to the road stuff for a year and focus on the truck the cottage one a crock on with the road. Now. I feel like I'm behind where I should be my years. So. Yeah, much. I'd love to go back for the truck. I don't think it's feasible. If if I if I could do the modern and drop back in for that. I'd love to see the teams use the focus and the most important thing on it's just whether whether that would work around out, by doubt it so I'm kinda just Fano folks on the road and thinking about one thing I feel grateful for this year, though, is the I still have a team, and I have a contract and opportunity to raise, you know. There's a lot of good bike ride as you've being flick this year, it's actually because you know, there's someone like like good may mind Ditto, John Devon, no contract. You know, wanna will Tom the before? And then how to pay off year and his album and stuff and all of a sudden, he's gone gone. Almost overnight them becomes a ship. I cried when it rally still has a law talent. He's so young guy. You know, other guys, you know, same someone like Scott weights, you know, someone who's being top ten in and start a Ban Ki. And I think how back well on all of a sudden he's gonna drop down to levels. It's just crazy. Mark question. He's another one like another good may mine. On you know. Yes, just it's it's just crazy and on when you see stuff like that, you kind of brings it home. I'm very grateful dot com, truck and still be racing and have the platform to try and do the most of it. I think that was one of the big things which kind of made me change not my chewed overall. But just kind of start thinking about everything even more and more and kind of before I did pull the Olympics. That year had a laser like focus everything I did was to the Olympics. And I wasn't gonna compromise anything. It was. I wasn't going to get to the games. And if we came second stand there and think done this done, they get it on this. I wanted everything ticked off and got there. And we lost that fair place. You have a BS because they had better by didn't one night excuse. I'm not. I'm not at kind of those two years after I was still really focused on I didn't quite hot laser like focus which had before. And I think after last year and seeing a lot of your mates gonna drop down levels and really struggle for jobs, and that kind of uncertainty of changed some in my head and just all right? I'm lucky to be here. I've got good opportunity and the best team in the world. I have a talent for this. I need to get the most ob- and make the most of my bell in the time have so just let onto trying to be more professional everything, I do so willed pro cycling thing, you know. I'm with nine lives, so go another contract. But yeah, it's it's not as glamorous as all seems. And I think that's what people forget inside is that you know, you go from like you say we'll to thing and his Neo as a Neo pro. And now just being so left, but so banks say talking's get more serious now. And if you not good nine percent of the time can leave you. Jopin? You know, God knows if I'd not job this year and under the Spain bid Manos something he's done. Oh, so yeah, I guess it does strike home. And it's good. You know, you've got mature head on your shoulders, which is good. You just. Find a wife now and some kids you'd be you'd be loving life. Right. Jay's night. Podcast is supported by science in sport, science and sports fueled by science Frank very much to science sport for supporting cycling podcast through the year. And you can get twenty five percent off all your signs of sport products at science and sport, they'll come with the code SIS CPI twenty five s I s c p twenty five at signs sport. They'll come thanks to science and sport and somebody who consumes of scientists will be owing do because signs of sport supply team sky. And that was an interesting I thought very what was interesting for me about this latest interview in the blind series was the slightly different dynamics I felt between Adam and owing because Adam was the senior writer last week. We heard him in conversation with Tim Harris, who's who who's been his mentor for a few years, and it was almost. As though Adam was mentor, in a way, a wing to felt like he was sort of subtly passing on a few maybe a few lessons if you tips he's learned and they followed a similar journey away. Having you know, Adam spent a few years and living in Monaco, living, the highlife in Monaco, and then has moved back to the UK where he settled dine in three kids and a wing do much younger age has also lived in that sort of areas of France and has also returned about you can the sort of picked up. Adam is also Vesey picked up the dual has has buckled down a bit in the final year of his team sky contract is contract year for him and important. They get some good results to secure his future. Yeah. I mean do much more of a product of the British cycling pathway though than than that in Blyth. But it must be, you know, must be difficult when you win an Olympic medal an Olympic gold medal wide would do being when he won he twenty two five twenty. When they want him reopen. And this kind of remember Bradley Wiggins talking about this win when he won Olympic medals thinking that it was going to be sort of transformative freezing ta ally from the, you know, we'd never have to work again, or whatever whatever the ideas were prior to winning an Olympic gold, perhaps the there's a when you're an active sportsman Spoilsports women, particularly in cycling wear wrote racing is your bread and butter. There's wants to kind of delayed reward to the to the Olympic mental. It gets put on the shelf as I oversee it fantastic achievement. But then a big contrast between being Olympic gold medalist. I'm emptying the sort of Roida, the do, you know, the row he fills in team sky because he he's in. He's rally the to be the protected ROY to the certainly in in the biggest races. And I think that's what made the current Brussels. Kurna result. Out because the victory kind of disappeared the road in closing kilometers. Pogos wasn't gonna get caught. Was it was pretty close as I came into the finishing straight doing sore and opportunity there and seized it really went for it. And. You know that as you said, Richard stop probably is team sky's standout result. If the classics it is I mean, he was given opportunities. Well, a couple of weeks later in e three which he wasn't able to take really didn't have the legs on that day. But you know, I it says third year with team sky. He hasn't ridden a grand jury. He said there that he's keen to write a grant for this year. That would probably make a big difference to him maybe physically as well. But you know, he's one of a crop of young British writers who joined team sky two or three years ago tale heart, another John Dibbin was another 'em and John Donovan wasn't kept on this year. He wasn't offered a new contract. So that will have. Being a warning to to do. And the other is suppose, the, you know, there are no guarantees just because you're talented young British writer, there isn't necessarily a big contract with few team sky. You'll be you'll be kept on on results alone. I guess to choose them potential as well. So it's a big year for him. And he's a talented writer. You know, he's he's he's mentioned some of his results around the twenty three writer third on g c at the two Britain and twenty fifteen as well was really stunned result and one comment he made in passing which really made me sit thought was a by the offering Ed from Direct Energy fears ago, which would have taken in a completely different direction to France on a very French team where he might have been of Brian co cards stike type that sprinter perhaps might be in the way that they they would have seen him developing. And he just said in passing those bullet there, I'm not quite sure. What he really meant by not. But he clearly feels that you know, he obviously don't going there men. He was able to win a gold medal, which is something he always have obviously, and you know, began his professional career with team sky. So, you know, but it, but it is a big year for twenty five and in the third year of his contract team sky. It's it's a really really am pivotal year for him to, you know, move into the next phase of his career and start getting some some more results because he's clearly capable of. He's a fast finisher as well. And we often talk about you know, how fast a fast writer can can do very well for himself 'em because that's what teams looking for. They're looking for guys can finish. Gateway reminds me die Frau suffered saying, you know, nationalities. Not going to be, you know, offer any guarantees team sky being British rider might open a door. But really? Paul being being the British system that kind of funnels talent towards team sky and being just being British enough. And I think you when you think of just off the top of my head. Andy fan, for example, to a degree Pete Cannock who's who's overseeing moved away to bore handscroll is currently taking a break from racing but others Alex pizzas who. Left team sky, and you know, didn't didn't progress on. That's the there's no guarantees and going from team sky in Senate will be to to a foreign team would be a big culture change in an an a big difference in the way of of working and just everything about it would would be different. So I'm not surprised to do perhaps, you know, his phone ca- slightly. Speaking of focused line onto the slight the general piano, playing the background. It's probably a sign that things up. We did hear in the background in the Caffey there one or two baby noises. My my two year old boy has just arrived home. And he's playing the piano issues which. Rich is up. We need check we've copyright on this, and we don't want to be paying royalties. But it probably does mean that we should wrap up. He's he's wanting some attention clearly, and so that that's not so for the penultimate, Adam blind few silver knew who were getting nice. We know I'm really out. Yeah. I just know the that Adam bly will deliver when it when it really matches knob -solutely, we we we're very comforting 'em. But. I'm sure you will be less. No sin, anyway, not soul for that sulfur now. Thank you very much Lionel. Thank you, Richard. Thanks to the blind owing do. You've been listening to you. The cycling podcast subscribe to on newsletter at the cost come to get all the latest news and special office delivered straight to your inbox. This episode was edited and produced by Tom Wally.

sky Olympics Adam bly Bradley Wiggins writer Manchester Richard Caffey Luke gold medal Europe Adam Rafeh Direct Energy caffeine Brighton Paul Neo Wilmslow Lionel Bernie
24: Adam Blythe Interviews Tim Harris

The Cycling Podcast

49:33 min | 1 year ago

24: Adam Blythe Interviews Tim Harris

"Thanks, right. Sorry, guys. What rights doing tomorrow, Brenda Koksijde? I've just out to get my license to my director. He came over to us for. To the cycling podcast in association with Rafeh, the fastest clothing in the world tour, the home of cycling with character Rydin watch with rather in two thousand nineteen as they partner e f education fast and canyon throb. Oh, my name's Richard Moore. And I'm with Lionel, Bernie, Richard. And we're here just once again briefly to introduce the lethal in our Adam blind interview series, aren't reliable. We are indeed this week. It's a former writer, Tim Harris who may be familiar to some of you not Tim a writer in the eighties nineties with various teams and the UK on abroad and he wrote for time in Portugal as well. He was British national road race champion. He wrote for fifteen ah before fifteen a- became infamous in one thousand nine hundred eighth in retirement. He well, he lives in Belgium, and he has helped of young writers. I mean, you name a talented or successful British writer of the last decade or so and chances are he has stayed in. Tim's house, and Belgium and been shown the ropes of Belgian. Racing there and Adam Blige with one of those writers. And as Adam will explain in the CIA, he has with Tim. He went to Belgium with a certain reputation already kind of pinned to his back, and yet Tim Harris and his partner justly Ryan really kind of set riders on a path towards the professional ranks and kind of given them this the skills they need to survive first of all in Belgian amateur icing embracing not just a racing. But also the the lifestyle that is required to thrive yet. I am absolately, and we know Tim Harris a bit because he works at the to France as well, he drives VIP's guests for school attitude of France. And he's one of these guys who he's always story always got bit of gossip and. Has has fingers and lots of different Pisces, very interesting guy and hope you enjoy this chat that you had recently with Adam Blythe listening to special episode of the cycling podcast. Adam bly interviews. For crossover to Adam bly in conversation with Tim Harris. We must see big thank you to our title sponsor Rafeh. They title sponsor, the cycling podcast across all the different podcasts that we do. And their new core collection has just launched with including their core cargo bib shorts the bibs which rafters entry level shorts have been updated for everything you need for every day on the bike they'll aid to carry more whatever the style of writing at featuring the same hugely popular pockets on the legs on the back. I introduced in raffles explore collection. Whether it's a spare jail on Monthan effort or a camera on a weekend adventure came more of the things turn rights into memories. The core bib shorts have been given fool. Mark reviews by road. C C cyclist values road cycling on more. For more information, go to Rafeh CC. And everyone. It's day with one of my probably one of my best mate. So I've known not that long. But yeah, twelve years is a long time. Timorous you'll of your no in innovative him. A lot of year might not have as lives in Belgium, an old professional don't really put his face in the media much. So yeah. Tim used to be national champion nine thousand nine hundred nine year. I was born. My sister. Oh, by the way, Tim's own language, and it's called Dorgan's. And it's basically a mix of Portuguese English, Norfolk and Belgium. So if you hear fodder me or anything like it's a bit line off may or. Means gray or you star or something like that. If hear me, and Tim say all father may or anything like that. It's it's not swear. And it just means either bad or good or. Really good. So tomorrow national champion nineteen Eighty-nine Tim, you're in a lot of no other. I don't even know really all the teams in. But. Yeah. Talk through your career when you start really in them building up to national champ KIA tempo in September four team code our snacks. Season after hours in our VP vitelle also. Dutch team and the next two seasons INC in Britain and the next year after that rally banana and won national championships are really been honor then signed for Pasadena in Spain. And after that one couple of stages in the tour of the garden in Portugal and saw Sean for Portuguese teams for three seasons. And then for the last four seasons on my own Polkomtel rental team called efforts moisture Pact-era and in ninety six Malaysia Fatemi ninety six I thought it was you sure I thought it was a lot the sooner the notch up lasted longer than I thought. Festina must be ANC infrastructure must've in the highlight of your career back nine. It was a lot. They were the two big stunned names. I know festina for different reasons because they were full of good cyclist rarely so our did you get about getting into? Back there. Like nowadays, you have to come to Belgium. France knows obviously. And everything was a lot different. I mean, it's the same bull is massively difference in our days. You know, you haven't got all these British cycling all that kind of. So did you go about two professional well in some ways, it was exactly so measured. It you. You came to Belgium went to Holland when I was actually went to Italy. I and when I was junior one of ice in Italy, but had some new role in that, you couldn't be foreign Reuters. So the other option moves to go to Holland. So I went to Holland vice for amateur team, neck or will aboard Wilbur out and really. Kyw modern Weisenthal fashioned wise. But still like she say now a lot of just come here. And if you do okay you. You could make it to be a pro prone. If you don't you don't, but in reality not much as changed its partial Rice's about Chicoutimi. We've do something or you don't. Yes. Tim always used to say to me. And you always do something rather than nothing. If you're not you're not going to be anyone you so. That's basically are not him. How are you as a professional? And then I ended up living with you. When I was I think seventeen now, I think. Yeah. When I was seventeen I moved to Belgium. Came to live with Tim. It was through Phil Griffiths moved in there. It was also left the economy. Not really wanting to be there. So not really knowing what I was going to do but to do something. So I applied for rain phone, which Tim now works recruits arise in arise. Avoid Konta live with Tim in Belgium to try and make it professional. By actually got refused. Raina GM got refused. Raina for to go to CT. RTT sorry to them, and I got funding through them, and it was two hundred a month, and Tim I used to live with him charge me to a month for rent. So I was left with nothing. But when I moved in with me, it's quite funny story out to you. I'll let him tell you about it. But he was still good friends of dealing with rod used to run the economy. So when I left Tim asteroid voice all in. And let me tell you the story of well how it came around here. My name and introduced me really funny story really always didn't Tope. By New Delhi rafters, really good friend of mine. And also, Phillip Griffiths is also really good friend of mine and. On members in Italy. They will sought to chaper chips a phone call out of the blue from felon. Phil says right? Your tight is this young MRs been off the academy. He said she's in Blyth all heard really was bad things about them. So we hadn't really impressed role too much in his is behavior, shall we say? But fails or press game into taking 'em. So didn't have most choice because philatelic me a lot when I was racing vice within INC so thought, okay. So Adam arrived up picked him up at the airport on says, right? Avert your complete twenty. You got one month to sort yourself out otherwise bringing you back here. And that's that's how it started. Is it really? And we on all right since then we've done quite well, really. But. Yeah. Upper-middle you in them me and Tim on like, I have some fire. We didn't really quite a lot in common being such different age groups, really it was quite a lot of the simple nece. Roger now, we both fell in over that when you were young when I was young. So then when I can't live with you. It was so of like, I was a little Baker. Sorry. Tim's names character Baker. Yeah. A lot Tyler from the start because you just want to rice and CARA. Reuters compared you never know how good or bad somebody will in a member taking his first rices puzzle up. Like, I think the images of the member finishing the finished under these are hard. It was. But then he just kept wanting to rice everytime vic- want to rice because I want to make some money as well because in hidden money, take all of them. The business platform and. But you have always got me about Rodney audience again so used to trying to them a lot, and we just spent such spent for the signs we did sprint sprint sprint sprint old island. It's funny really looking back. Now when you look at what we did in training together is never it was never plunder. It was never will do this today. We'll do that say we never sat down and looked here. We saw a race in four or five days. Let's just work around that. And that's what we did. It was in. And it wasn't like any structure to it. It was just it was just constant riding your bike. And it was always every time. We went out we'd have a point system for sign. So little towns be one point province sign a ten point countries Hines, very rare. But I'd be the million points who got back onto that be. UB? So we'd always go out. And we'd always around these signs. It always race each other. We're not kind of stuff and Tim was fifty and it was always about overlay chump. But the main thing is always PT always race. Make it always raise me and always trying not me down the ridge. So it always trying to knock me off the way or just try and beat me somewhere or another. But it was. Taught me quite a lot very always. You know is the simplest a bike route. And it wasn't going out impress in certain during a load of efforts. It was just going out on a simple nacip going out and buying around and go into a load of racism trying to win. It wasn't looking at your Watson trying to increase your walks. I think if you probably looked at the training was if you did it back to fun in the fact have had power may isn't if have had all the proper training plan, if we'd have looked back at it was probably pretty perfect training because you the long rides. You had the interval training shoes. Sprinting for the signs, so although on paper, it wasn't really structured in reality. It was would have been looking back at it. Because we did all the things that you need to do to be good by early. So I live with Tim for three years Haydn Nutella pots on your bed. When I was a first year when I went to Belgium, I never never could drink the milk. A hated the milk out there and all that kind of side like. Tim's house in the morning and just have chocolate milk cocoa pops and all kind of stuff in Tim used to. He didn't really say anything until you found ten types of Natella, Ron. So yeah, I spent three years Tim than eventually moved out, but just down the road from Tim. But I think what I got from Tim is told me in those short years. I the simple of religion be telling me, it's a business is a business. You have to remember this is a business and go and do these races. I remember after a couple of a few seconds Goff users, and I was always a coupla commence in Tim comeback from pure until blah, blah. You must be making a quite a bit of money. Now, it's only eighty euro for second. It's not like you're not getting paid. And then I didn't know about it. None Tim told me all of those fine. Those offi itself out to help someone for money or something. And as what Tim taught me is that it's a business and even those races. There's money to be made. If you win book, there's a guy called case matinee fueled is used to go to these commences, and they they want to pay it. Let them win almost or help them win. So that sort of struck a chord in if it's happening. This lower down the line the deals to remain one year the lion. It's not like I've ever made Musset deals in bigger bite races. Push still happens and timber down to me quite a young age that everything is of it's not for the lowest board. But there's always money's been made in short period of time that you gotta make money infamy that short period was being an amateur and trying to make enough money to pay pay rent, really and Tim of broiler own for me. But back in your day that most of up and. And a lot. Yeah. I mean, that's history. You didn't ask to? If you look back for history of bite rising always been pies money, and it was before it used to be really a sport for the for the poor people in Europe to be honest is now it's become over middle class spot. But before it really was more for the poor people away to gal of poverty in Europe. And. So in every is was money to be won. And it was. Yeah. People one rice is all they might have sort of not sold it, but help somebody else for the rising to pocket money in the back pocket. But and that just went on that was must part of the sport part of the interest in the sport. Because also in Belgium, bookmakers not so many now, but still yours Flanders think. But a lot of the way I look at citing if the only way you can compare with the Anglo Saxon world England, all and maybe Charlie are not. So sure about is. It's the same like horse racing in England wash rising everyday and betting on horse rising every day and it's day in day out. And basically, that's that's Flanders raise more or less every day, and our history people on it, and you have to look a little bit that chair. Yeah. A week from story. I went into grand and folk message. So yes, the lesson quickly. Learn. But no, I think moving back onto him and what he does now with his with his partner. Jocelyn your help kids. These days and arrived is wants common bay professionally wanna come late the by riders dream. But we both know that's not as easy as always looks on paper. These days is guys going through a cycle. And then they go into the process going team sky when the when the good and arrived is trying to make on their own and after own back, but a lot of say eighty five percent fail in fifty percent. So yeah, Tim said, yeah. Not even even less. Do you know is within that first month of living with your what it takes or not takes normally in a month? You can save somebody's really not because especially in March and April they arrive. Most of them have been running around spine training camps and stuff, and then come to Belgium and complete reality anybody's watch, the Belgium classics most will of how the POWs rise, but the amateur icy is exactly the same. If not even more crazy. So. In every single category. Bows, you've got the curve of the Toffler knows Ohio bake. But for the amateurs when you of just derive from the UK, and you're into vice-like that it's it's a complete shock, and you'll know pretty quickly, for example after left McClay as on the twat stove London. They headed mature I said on the twenty three I think it was two hundred ninety starters. Benefit two weeks. Pop and you want it. So they ultimately know that is is not going to be a donkey with that. You know, when I was chairing me, you eight modern shot. Tim's very old don't train. Nah. I shouldn't say this you gonna stick. But Tim, Tim John Chambers an element when he's on his own, but only because it's old school. And that's what he's always known you do treatment element every now, and again, no Trump now fees where can I go on the tour, which he does the element. So he does. But Tim super old calling the ways that he's never believed in modern modernist. Really don't like power me is you don't like heart rate monitor. You are which I guess is fairly modern really. So I guess Tim doesn't like whole lot nonsense around not being a bike race. And I think I agree with him. You know, you can't go into a racy days. And so many people obsessed with looking at power me is an Arp lament my threshold this thresholds. Not but you can't do race based on threshold into tour of Flanders or occur mice go or not go that artists. My threshold. Like, I said Tim's very old going away. Can you see rise at come across in deal as we say modern shot? Two ways to look at that. I mean, everybody lives Anne rice in the air that they're racing living in. So when I was in Raleigh banana, for example. We had Dr Titians we had we got with this hospital to be tested, and we are training schedules and everything, and obviously you rise to the best of your Bility's news every single thing that's available in your time. Which is now if you're writing, but what I think that what has been forgotten a little bit in all the Chinese schedules. And the power mate is actually the. Rice craft hot put us. In the fact of how to do seen where to put yourself in the world amend. The thing is like everybody talks about our dynamics if you sound somebody's well as per dynamics, the Blokhin funded us taking the weight, and so you have to learn that so thing if you're not kind to the front that need to be the era dynamic and then yesterday was the best example of ever seen. I was watching no Kerr rice and talion guy attacks, obviously, not used to riding in Belgium, looking at his heart monitor went down. There fridge and crash in full view of into our world. You obviously everything's called place. But you have to learn to rice and tactics. Another last week, probably imperishable power, snakes, one of the best examples one of the most impressive pieces of writing of seen in the last few years, actually, look right guiding. But now. In in the Shawn's when it split because for the little Columbian to be in the front in the split in an echelon stage when you got six jumbos lock and banana was one of the best pitch of audio ever seen. So the fact that Luke could do that in such impressive fashion because he knows how to ride a bike knows what he's doing knows where put yourself you have the most amount of power in entire race. But if you don't know where to put yourself in the bunch when it goes into excellence, you're being the Las echelon, and you can be the pressure art in the world, you won't jump for mesh onto echelon. And that's what I mean by you have to now out. How to have that rice craft in in a in a a modern rice and fashioned rise. Anyway, she after no to be. And that's where the winds coming from where the hills go to be have to study the study the rope there. Here is true. We've always said, I think I wouldn't be in a pro if every for new to-do Sut my engines tiny, probably neither would you probably, you know, I think being Tim quite similar as we always used to put ourselves in that right position. I was remember when Adam turn pro for lotto, Mark Sargeant, the owner of lotto put it in the newspaper because I didn't play called the Panama about minus ten it's headed in the headlines in the paper and obliged. He has a fifty motor. But knows L to use it to the volunteers of somebody with a five hundred sixty motor call myself a Vesper now I can capable in traffic, but I can't go faster than that car at the traffic. So I think that's. Says a lot about cycling's as you can have all the power in the world, which most people have gotten answer all into FTP and all kinds FTP stunts Trump. Teepee? I may need not as not TSS's. Training stress. Go. He's acting like he knows what is very is. No idea. See I think going back to that race craft. I wouldn't have been a pro if everyone on race craft. So I think all these people are strongest, comma Belgium and complex download numbers, but can't actually raise their sort the people that we need in racing without them. If they were as clever as we wouldn't be I wouldn't be pro everyone be clever as we are on the position. Like, we are with the numbers. They so we need these people in cycling. So keep doing guys the guys at the big numbers. Keep doing it. Shoot that. I do. Cars team card the back of the tax. Lease the voice of peak race radio with the two the front, interrupting Adam bly, and Tim Harris there to remind me to tell you this episode is sponsored by DNA fit who provide genetically guarded, fitness and nutrition incites for training solutions and long term health benefits. Dna help fifty thousand people unlock their health potential through genetically personalized fitness and nutrition insights, and Richard you are the fifty thousand I DNA fit customer and last we heard from your consultant, Tom. What's the latest? Yeah. Did a consultation with Tom Lancashire Olympic middle distance runner another of DNA, Fisk consultancies Craig Pickering who was very good sprinter. And is a well-qualified sports. Scientists now. Tolman? I spend quite loft time discussing the most surprising aspect of my results. Which was my power endurance response. Let's hear from Tom again. Everybody gets absolve fuel to the fire. One of the biggest our response is I've seen we don't see many certainly over eighty. Calculating eighty five maybe ninety whereas the injured most the most calling biggest probably lawn insurance. I may be around sixty sixty four teenagers. Our I guess it's the bridge. So you very much the far end of the the spread. Colin MacAulay here. The other though. You could have been could've been this. Holly. So it was told Lancashire just talking about my power endurance response, which for me, who's focused all my life on endurance. Sports was very surprising. And as I said, they're made me wonder whether I'd missed my calling and we went into more detail about nutrition injury risk. And so on you get a lot of information from your DNA tests. But whether your genes make you bear suited to juries per base activities, but also about your view to response recovery. Speed your injury risk all-share optimal diet, and whether you might have any intolerances or be particularly sensitive to for example, Guten alcohol or caffeine. The disclaimer is that your genetic makeup is only one part of the picture is not a method of prediction or denting talent. But very interesting to discuss Mursal with tongue Schimmel here. A little bit more something you Trish, in sight next week on fairy Cain tonight, whether you got any intolerances to. Hall caffeine. Richard could all to the grand tours for us. Well, inter- the very interesting thing about about tell you about that next week Lionel. Okay. Well, we're white for that DNA fit has robust science behind every, gene. They look at has at least three peer reviewed studies on human subjects and in two thousand sixteen. They released the world's first genetic exercise intervention base study showing that you can discover what kind of exercise works best for you. DNA fitter offering twenty percent off to all of our listeners. So start your personalized journey today by heading to DNA, fit dot com slash T. C pay TCP for this podcast to access the discount code and discover more that's DNA fit dot com slash TCP. This episode is also sponsored by the British heart fundation who organize on your London to Brighton bike ride, and they would like to offer five pounds of your entry for this year's event. Or if you can't ride yourself, you can sponsor the cycling podcast team. Instead, you're actually all you, Richard. It sounds like your you may be getting some training in for the event. Yeah. That's not the the London to Brighton. Bike ride. You can hear the on its shell the prese in Belgium, just said on Twitter. I'm at the the sprinter's race which Adam Blythe now, right? Oh, he's got number one on his back number eleven so team leader philosophy team leader for the London to Brighton now. You know, who's in the lineup. We we we've put we've put together quiet team haven't we quite a squad. Who's the leader? Who's the sprinter? Who's the climber careful? I think you're going to have to drag me diction bacon. Maybe that's job for everyone else. Everyone else at my service. And then I'll I'll finish off with a sprint along along the front in Brighton. Now, I don't to be there. I don't have to buy the first round finish. Anyway, the London Brighton bite Reid. He's really close to my heart. Because I I wrote it when I was fourteen in nineteen ninety and I remember just a great fun day. It was there was a sense of cameraderie. So I think it's the perfect event forbid of cycling podcast team bonding, isn't it and it's for a great cause the British heart foundation's research into heart and circulatory diseases is essential because they responsible still for one in four deaths in the UK the ride it self is fifty four miles long seventeen miles of them on completely closed roads. And as Richard said, you can get five pounds of the entry Fe by going to be h f dot org dot U K slash l to be two one nine and entering the code Brighton. Five that's H F dot org. Don't you K slash l to be two thousand nineteen and the code is Brighton. Five alternatively sponsor, we've raised nearly thousand pounds ready. We'd like to raise as much. As we possibly can go to just giving dot com slash the hyphen cycling hyphen podcast. So I guess when you were growing up it was very different era when I was growing up when I was growing up. It was still twenty eight hundred eight thousand nine two thousand ten and even back then is very different. What it was? Now. You know, I think even the use of having a pain killer in a race. And all that stuff that was fairly for me. This is now over and painkiller noise. It's not really a bad thing. But it used to be very much normally even doctors nowadays, if painkiller they'll be like, a, you know, it's going to be for my pain in the race. But I guess back in your quite sensitive subject. This was the more going on when you first year when you were growing up I straddled complete to errors. Because when I turned pro. That was an era when like people use unfetter mins and exterior all it's everybody knows because a lot of people call on it. But in about nine teen. Nine nine hundred ninety suddenly everything started to really change or member ride in the world in the world in on. And I was okay offing are punched in finale powers pay reasonable, right? I was and then suddenly the year light are capable of anybody. And. Nobody really knew suddenly talion bane being always good as suddenly like unbelievable top. Obviously we now what it was. It was the the China of the air from amphetamines and things to to APO actual blood doping and that was completely hundred percent differ, air and. Patino is different. When you say now if someone back in like when I was growing up it wasn't. I was just brought into it. So I wasn't. It was that level is what the level was. And then, you know, you get the guy to go super good. It's never gone. Well, but it was the level. I'm being been quite constant apart from a few guys that you know, you hear of the Goff the couple a couple Russians. Awesome for me, the levels not really be they'll evidence, I can just gonna open up through modern people getting faster drew to a quick -ment on all that kind of stuff. But did you really like go for one season to the next and then go what what's not training enough, or did, you know straight away down to help? Now, just completely we didn't happen because suddenly from the ones as into next week's early keep up and the thing was Zoll in. If anybody looks slightly magazine, I've got still got a lot of my in house of magazines form ninety nine hundred is is full of articles about training with. Heartbeat. Monitors Italian discovered all these fancy new training training systems on to be honest. We win on always infrastructure and before they were bought into disrepute cyber nothing on news now organiz doping or anything. And then suddenly everybody was super fast. And if you want you that was it. So it was just suddenly a crazy thing Neva really did or you didn't. And that was up. Just like flicking switch it just literally light some guys just all of a sudden got stupidly good because more or less proven. If you took twenty twenty percent automatically. So I I'd once I was in the pike in our bake. I was ten eleventh natural if I'd have been twenty percent better on it, shall we say case if you are things like that. So yeah, all you got to look around. Now, there's a lot of people, you know. One a lot of ISIS in our. But that's just how it was. But we didn't at the time. We didn't know only in his in afterwards. Older stories of coming out when you've packed in. That you really knew how widespread it was kinda much in it. But I can't really. I can't imagine it really. Mental Reuter off in the past rod out of every thing. I think I've ever seen the Paul from like, Malcolm Elia enjoyment. Kopplin was allowed Copan Lockwood. From Bristol world was unbelievably good is when he was he went to the Olympic Games in CEO of it wasn't. And he was still working fulltime in the building. He did like at one stage in the middle rice. And. Could beat most depositing, but he his career coincided really with with EPA era. And yet if it'd be nice now he could win the Toffler and one hundred percent, but you can even finish early when he came to Europe because because of his career and people him, Andrew rights, another unbelievable. Good rider, guys, you he's studying nutshell. The record on the olive man might still. But they were just unbelievable is unfortunate to have their careers ruined by what was going on. So you never really it's never really think about it. But you just heard about these blokes. We're good riders. And not just like you said the air in the time just didn't allow them unless they did. The drugs you're looking because my Ma best results before all came in. So I had at least the chance to have five years when it was normalize it. Because aero have means suffer actually works doesn't work. No. It's not really prove it. It's more psychological. So by the somebody's not took that really know. But in EPA is one hundred percent different. So. But least I had the chance for five years to prove yourself until it was all over. So when I was living at Tim z always spent three years living with him five to my own apartment and moved to Monaco after that and look back on it wasn't the best choice ever made. And we all know about that. Tim always used to tell me it's a short career news. Even this was like two three years into my professional sourcing. It's short career, you need the most of it and always used to say to me you need to do something. You can't just ride around being average at something. And I think that's it's still the same. These days you need to be good at something unit. Be good at riding on the front in it climbing in sprint, and you need to do something as nothing so many people these days. So hard to stay in the job con. Lot of people can be rigid tips and the year, but being good for twenty is so difficult, and I think that's why a lot of people these days about to retire, especially this year in the sport. And what's up into is super difficult last year really was difficult year? Because obviously every now is quite a few teams stopped and lot of offensive ours. Friends revolve grown up bull. It's not it's not as though is every airbase unaccept- friends. We've really seen it since yesterday. That's under percent trick since time. We're gonna it's been like that. But people are shocked because it she makes you always have to prove yourself. Yes. So. Adam says you even come up with the goods you get another job. And that's along the shore. Really? And it's. Well, we just goes nuts. What Tim O once? It's over it's over and. I was looking at stop in Las year didn't set about schoolwork for Tim. I was Chaz. But when you start was it was it difficult. Did you did you look back in hate it? Or did you know what you were going to do? Resolve launching Tim was telling me, you know, he went through stages of when he didn't have a contract, and he drove to where Lear and things. So Toby tell him that story. So one year, I didn't think I was going to get a contract. I didn't know what to do. This was really before that coffee crazy for been evidenced by not say these mobile coffee, Espresso bars for the day. Drove to Milan news is about six, especially factories in Italy. So he's not on the door all of them to see if I could buy an Espresso Espresso machine start this great ideals today. And but then I got another contracts that didn't happen, but looking how big coffees become in the meantime, my shoulda shoulda isn't even a millionaire now, but no Tim now owns chair business. Don't you see if anyone in the market chairs, it's listening? Tim marriage chairs dot com. Is that what it is? Old school is don't website for company. But did you find it difficult when you start to do go through a while wondering what you're going to do did, you know straight away. A member having very once. For magazine said the hardest fight Craig is a die you stop because every single since I've been fourteen you'd woken up with a goal and used to do you by the next race the next training camp, the next EV you gotta doing so you, and you just always just of Asli. That's what you do when you saw this let you do. You just every waking moment is all cycling and then for next one day to the next suddenly you've got this massive empty huge base. And it's not even about the fact tall of getting a job not getting job is the fact that you need to find something that's going to motivate yourself to bed because. Every professional cyclist is Harley motivated person. So it's not like just going to job you saw this. But from the minute you stop the after find something that you want to do that. That will solve fail. Needs in to do something. Really kinda much stuff about a con imagine stopping in trying to find some you that much much cycling. I when I finished I couldn't look bike. I can benefit resulting. What's rather? Because I saw felt like you'd idea. Career Saul taken away from you because of all that going on. So we're not finished. I didn't. Nothing to do with it. But the guy that got me back into the fibers, Tom Barras of spats sputter spats. But he is because obviously vice is dead set and said five yourself son Yvonne's to try in Belgium. So Tom came and lived in the next release to me and are coming you have to come out on a bike ride. So when I was Tom. Thomas tastic like so. That's really sort of got back into it and got interested again start vices you've Thomas team and slowly got to alike again for it was rather than just the nightmare. It's all become but after all like you find in your lava game cycle through Thomas Darden him getting back on the by you really went back into sickly because then you start working on the tour, and I think so Tim works on the tour as works Skoda and you've driven around VIP's Goto throughout the whole Toda funds for. Twelve years every station the past twelve years, which for someone that stopped. Didn't wanna look a bike to get back into it in the biggest sore bike raising. You do the tour Britain for the first commissaire are always Mitch. I love chat with Tim little hold on for a bit longer than wait longer normal. But now going back into that and going into the tour and working alongside the biggest most stressful by raise plot. Most did you first or did you hate you must have not the most have been some parts where you're like, I ridiculous or not because dope, and we're still going massively twelve years ago. I hope it was obviously going on because the first few tours member one because they all got kicked off forever. But I did it. That was just good fun. It was good fun today. We had a good team got it was very Roger Hammond Hammond being asked to find it was quite difficult to tell you had to be first thing this language, speak languages, you had to be an ex pro rider, and obviously at the hall of July to be able to go. So there wasn't really that many candidates. So I saw manage to wait in different now, though, go on the tour every in basically a Wiltord team in peleton unday Schlick undies like Stephen Roach staff killings. Right. What's van summer when summer as well? So it's mentally talk about cycling, even those guys. They were like massive earners. You know, some woman bay front short was under Franklin and the. Mental where he think you look at are you when all massive is one to one zero bay, and I'm not big. But now the around with you. The friends look enough to race. But for them is so recent you'd surprise like for me, I've not fallen. I wouldn't if I stopped. It's not because I didn't look this ball is because I couldn't carry on trying to do all that train into be mediocre. You know, it's at the highest level you want to do it. And if you have to drop down cloud fuel levels at the age, I'm. I wouldn't hate this by just finding to difficult mentally to do it now that lower level. So I think for them guys half into stock for whatever reasons it were earn in so much money the career and then into stop and go and do that. It's unbelievable in it. Yeah. I suppose to Israel when you think about it. But I think okay, you say there a lot of money. There's not one person. Does bike riding because the money really your every single person started bike riding because they liked him and some bad nervous. Some people. Their highest. I'm vulnerable to finish club run of the people who win the funds, but every single person starts because I love bike riding. The money's really got nothing to do with it. So they want to still be involved in the probably the best way to volved in talk driving VIP's extreme every stage. Got the ARGUS go helicopter. They stay in nicest chateau's in France. So really the fact that I were champions doesn't take a why they left slightly as well on still be involved. I guess coffee. Seven a coffee break chump trial. Purple things crew a final switch full of sugar. We say finales sway is like what you have in the fine. Like a really strong jello when I was mature used to get pro plus pro caffeine, tablets and a few hours. What books he didn't? Well, you did have gels were massive. Here we go and stuff. So. Was one of the first people ever used to gel. I had a friend who was runner in Norwich. And it's found this New South African product called Lapins gels. And. Start using them. And then our member nobody near petroleum was rising in Portugal. I used to supply the whole peleton move Leppings jails point take back to put captain of industry. Another thing. Let's it really really. We've got we always have a lot of discussions over the phone. But there's not really a lot talk about after that. Really? I think he's just. For me, just Franks to timorous for doing it. But also Tim's been mental to learn a lot. So if you wanna come to Belgium, and you wanna be a pro cyclist, there's no person Timorese to learn from really? That was good fun. Yeah. Just. Cycling podcast is supported by science in sport, science and sport fueled by science, very very much to sciences sport for their support of the cycling podcast, and all we do is very much appreciated, and you can still get your twenty five percent of all your science and sport sports, nutrition products at science and sport dot com with the code SIS, CPI twenty-five SIS, see twenty-five at science and sport dot com. That was an interesting half our or so of conversation wasn't that Lionel it was what did you take from it? Because I took from it. The kind of pragmatism required to make cycling which is. An until a certain point. It's a leisure pursue a Hobie something you do for fun and then turning that into a career and that starts before anyone signs a pro contract. I think riders are becoming professional. If not in in name in spirit, a lot younger earlier, and Tim Harris is is there's no not really much romanticism is in some of that chat is quite paints quite different picture to the one that we see on TV, the kind of the, you know, the gritty Calama, but the glamour nonetheless, the sense that it's a hard job a making a living and staying in the sport is not necessarily easy. And it's not something that's for everyone yet, Tim Harris an antidote to the British system, which Adam was part of before he went off to Belgium in and lived with Tim for a bit and learn the ropes of professional cycling, and you do sense of both are kind of pragmatic in a way, both are and perhaps not romantic in in the way that some of us perceive, professional cycling cycle sport to be am. But but also quite. Different, you know, whereas British cycling, it was very much and numbers and science sport science at Tim, harasses, San antidote to that. He's a very much about learning the craft the profession of cycling, and I think that is very rooted in Belgium in funders, isn't that the idea that cycling there is is is a serious business with emphasis some business. And I think Tim is is is a is a great teacher in the is interesting. But you know, Blythe it was it was his last chance saloon in the way and going to Belgium in writing as an amateur there and trying to attract the interest of a professional team, and and the British and didn't work for him. But that that system did work for him, and Tim Harris was obviously crucial in that. He and Tim is know downbeat kind of down on us. As you know, positive. Always be always a word of encouragement. You know, I just sent of giving people young people essential their own personal responsibility. In a way, you belie to try and make it as a professional cyclist. But if you're going to do it, then give it everything you've got and. You know, I think there's some valuable life lessons for those who don't necessarily make in the sport as well. And I mean. Tim's a agree is a great people person. I mean, great enthusiasts. Then you know, he runs a chair business as well as as they mentioned, but he can seeming enthusiastic, but anything toll. He's one of these people, but amount white type car to remember Donyell talking about my white is being somebody who has kind of Ma white cloud of stored files where you could ask them out. Why a question about absolutely anything? And he would have an answer would have an opinion and marriages is kinda cut from the same cloth. He's he's very similar and very entertaining in that way as well. Tim's fool of opinions knowledge, and wisdom and not learned from, you know, books necessarily learned from from life, and yeah, he he's he's on social media, which maybe that maybe there's something in that lesson for all of us. And you've been listening to episode of cycling podcast money's which Moore. Thank you very much. Lionel. Thank you, Richard. You've been listening to the cycling podcast subscribe to a newsletter at the starting cost dot com to get all the latest news and special office delivered straight to your inbox. This episode was edited and produced by Tom Walley.

Tim Belgium Adam Tim Harris Richard Moore Adam Blythe France Belgium UK Lionel Adam bly Portugal Tom road cycling Tim I Europe Anne rice Reuters Festina partner
18: Adam Blythe Interviews Luke Rowe

The Cycling Podcast

43:14 min | 1 year ago

18: Adam Blythe Interviews Luke Rowe

"You listening to the cycling podcast in association with Rafeh, the fastest clothing in the world tour, the home of cycling with character ride 'em what with Rafeh in two thousand nineteen as they partner e f education fast and canyons throb. Glue mines should Moore. I'm with Lionel burning Hella, Richard. And we're just here briefly introduce episode two in the atom blind interviews series, the lot of pseudo writer, former British champion has been doing some interviews on behalf of the cycling podcast last week. It was Kayla. Abune this week vinyl. It is moot. Grow the team sky writer, captain can we call him. I think we can call him their road, captain after the way he wrote at Pyrenees recently. He was calling the shots wasn't. He like well like the season pro that he is seems only yesterday that he was joining team sky as a as a promising young writer back in two thousand twelve or thing that was in this interview, they go right while they go back a long way together autumn Blythe and lacrosse oil hero there oron's and cycling together and Luke gross career has developed since then, and you know, what he might be looking to do in his beloved classics, which are. Coming up. Yeah. And loot row has said he wants to get a result to go bit better than his fifth place from the two of Florida's a couple of years ago before we hear that and we should say big. Thank you to our headlines sponsored Rafeh and the new Rafeh shoes are now available. The classic unexplored designs created entirely in house on following years of experience in research with tens offensive kilometers of where testing the classic shoe has already been raised this year in the world tour by e f education first writers on the export shoes have been tested by bike and cross cyclocross writers all over the world, and they are available now, and you will find more details. Rafeh dot CC also available now are that EF gone racing films from various races already this year. But the latest one is Milan-San Remo and there some coming out from the some the funders races as well subscribed to raffle films. On youtube. You also find James Wieland interview, James, we learn, of course, of e f -education I that's also on Rafeh dot CC. A note over to Adam Blythe, you and listening to special episode of the cycling podcast. Adam Blythe interviews. Podcast number two today. We're in Adelaide, South Australia, special guest, Luke, grow bigger story, really honors are we know each other not was together man Luko for labor Slyke. I think I was five years old when I met you six maybe down. It was mainly. Portsmouth was or they go Portsmouth trucks. Oh, yeah. Since you were think how it must have been six you six you're young Amelia. Six years old, maybe. A in seven right. We'll go is six make it sound. So when we were like four major. Now before we met. Racin alanya. Pretty much opens hill when I was a copy rarely reach raised together constantly like in abroad over in Belgium. So we've known each other awhile, and we always say this quite a lot when we're together now and it weird like Pnn out. What we love what we started doing swift is geez air. But so that same kind of crew really so. Yeah. Anyway, don't, but it's a little background on where I mean of man grown from what we're still doing now. So good memories, really growing. Can you? Remember anything phone? I can just remember the first time, I met you. And so me, and my brother went up my parents to Portsmouth for hundred attract me and you swifty rocked up. And he first time we see in you. And you both out these massive much in blonde fringes dislike just died. If fringes you'll both much, and we just like, so I was racing you and fifty. Race my brother in the older category. We were just like for who these had all the best kit had like Kevin winter bikes deep sections. Yeah, I think mentally crack for the race even start. But. Yeah. That was I met you. I think we were to I remember that. 'cause you voted that's from wheel back in the day. Like, the t but used to be smaller wheels from the zip wheel with a big gold. Hope. Herbal no member now, and you pull the raising of forgot about him. Could all day. So yeah, then we grew up quite a bit Ryssdal allies pretty much together and then stopped. Unlike this is more on you now about when you were. You went from pretty much. After Junie didn't go straightens the academy. Did you eat did one year jail? Tae three as academy. Two years academy is. Yes. So I was went. It was rough a condo recycling back then. But a road for them as a junior. So yeah, I your junior road for Glenn dean, no under sixteen. I upgraded to junior. Because it's preferred road racing rather than crit. So last year junior wrote for Glenn dean, and then two years junior a road for fifty was rough a condo recycling. Nothing. And yes, Chris knew was there. Grain breaks was there. I was just like slow. Yeah. Pretty cool actually writing with boys one on just junior. And then second news rough condo. And that was the proper min care. I love to you know, being in junior anx all about having the best care and an an. Yeah. Three years on the academy. Work with quite different guys. They're daren't. You scan Maxine Andris Chris Newton. So it was just off the road left. I came three years there. And then on sky for here's go quick here. We are seven years later crazy like back to the academy of now. It's changed. A lot of useless since rod was earned the new of that stuff. I'm gonna ask this question to a few people book, you know, like, no what you know. Now, would you go back on the academy now? Or would you take a different route to try and get where you are now? And do you think you to here without the academy? I think like if you good enough you good enough on your make it wherever route you take. If you look you're all the different routes to professional cycling, like yours was obviously pretty different when over in Belgium, and kinda did off your own back, and you see different people taking different routes and and pass through their career. But I think you know, if you good enough good enough wherever you take your. Your rice rice that's up. I think for me probably would go back to the cotton. It was it was the easy straightforward option. At the time go in from that junior British program separate states step in straight into them to twenty three bridge program. And I'm not really sure how which changed. It does seem to have changed a bit. The weather for the good or bad. But it seems to have changed over the years. But for me them, three years, just were awesome. A time where we had a real good bunch of guys. And I was lucky enough to be in the system where in the summer who's based out in Karachi in Italy. We had max county looking stress there. But all the brush pros with us. You could train with you know, Cavs Steve come in peak Kenner when he stepped up g swifty. So you'll end the twenty three squad, but you're training with five six seven of the the best British pro. So that was kind of dream scenario site. Yeah. Probably wouldn't change it. Go back do the same thing. I did. But I think we were lucky then, you know, I think that based in Manchester now, which doesn't sound quite as appealing. We were lucky that I spent my years there the summers in Italy. And that was some pretty fond memories. We had like just a good bunch of lots on the program as well. Like myself, Pete Mark Christie. Ian Russell fan. Just like a real good bunch logical on really well. And looking back here we've got some right mischief, but it was good fun mischief. So monster was obviously to mischief I lived there for three months on my academy. Obviously when our choir in, Manchester, where we live in Falfield. You're the same way you save apartments. And it was I'm there when I was eighteen in paid a little bit of money. But basically, you're just like let free on your. So when I was overly when out quite a bit. And when a bit men to learn never quite made it to the little Trump in Italian and got kicked off this court, but similar few mate. Yeah. I think your age where you go from living at home to junior, and then you two hundred twenty three and you go move away. And we were in follow field. The first time where you actually get a paycheck. So it was seven thousand pounds a year of which half went straight to rent. So that which left you with three and a half grand a year, but even steer with which is much per time. Any paycheck was was great. So and you go straight into as you're joining the economy, the unit the students go in that for fresh. So naturally, just jump straight into the thick of it. But it was I think you almost kind of they put us there intentionally just to kind of make or break, you if you were going to be out on the source every night, then you're going to struggle and doomed to fail. It was kind of always a balance, you know, we certainly at our Fash at nights out and enjoy ourselves. But also looking backward. Eighteen year old kids, you know? Move into an apartment, you look across the road, and you see a nightclub, and you know, you're naturally going gonna go. Wondering hunt years. So yeah, we had a good time. But then as the season started, then we're out in Italy. And it was a tiny little village in the middle of nowhere. So we had our fun in the winter. And then we really did knuckle down in the summer. So I think best both worlds certainly how good few nights out some good times had a few stories mainly of track sessions being a bit hung over and all that stuff. So then from the academy UN from the two years, and then you went out three years in the and then you ensure into which is you still now teams guy because team in the world, then and probably still is now how did teams guy come around? You know, those first years rows Neo pro whole myself into the team. But yeah, how was it for you? Joy. Not that. And how did it come around? Really? Yeah. Naturally. The squad nervous. Join in join the team. I got a phone call, Shane Sutton, halfway through two thousand eleven say and yet right contracts on the table get to go out a few other options, but it was. A B M C could've gone had a trial with quickstep. Yeah. The year before there was leopard trek Leah part. Sorry. But that wasn't a contract that was just to be of interest. Yeah. At a few little offers. But it was for me. I just wanted to go go to sky. I think a lot most my mates were there at the time and still are now not made the transition pre pre easy, actually. A lot of like, I was obviously knew viscous as I joined Brad was there. Calf and Bernie, and they joined on Richie they joined the same year that would and two thousand twelve so suddenly you're just stepping into this team. And it's achieved massive things. And these these guys you've only ever seen on TV and would in the biggest races in the world and suddenly that teammates sham rooms with them. And of course, it's quite daunting. But he soon learn. You know rule to Shuman through normal guys. Nice guys in the kind of, you know, look after you and show you the roots. But yeah, certainly like you say it's going to new team. You know, you still only have Stallone what twenty so it still still quite daunting? But luckily at a my mates, they're swift EP Stana g you know, this goes on to kind of make that transition, quite quite smooth. I guess boys makes a lot easier especially like swifty stunt auditory grown from them. So it's gonna be a lot easier. I didn't know about his team's before. I just thought you in straight. And there was like no other interests at all us. Just like, boom. Yeah. Sorry. My no insulin. You. Gee, look back now and saying obviously a beam. Live bloody good career on the toll ten times or Boone about twenty of invading. Not same Oprah in Flanders atone Assam may even got one win so remain too. Do you not think no more, you know? Now, if you could take up back to being a Neo protein, you're on a different team and got an elite of classics maybe like quickstart, they when everything you think if you want you'd still be the righty of turn out to be now. Would you think you'd be more of a classic writers or like to tra-? Yeah. Think interesting question. I guess the answer is you never really know. But for me, I gotta change anything. Whether it would have made me a rider in the classics or maybe out of heart more Winston my name possibly, yes. Because obviously team sky. It's it's a great team. He said it's the best team in the world. Let's say, you know, whether it whether it is or isn't. It's certainly one of the best teams in the world. So whether I'd gone to another team in props won more races possibly, yes. But for me, I think come into team sky, and I'm never going to be a massive window never gonna win ten races year and less just not possible for me. So what's the next? Best option is to go to the biggest races and help other people win. So. Yeah. Been parked twenty twenty two wins. But being par four. The well to second so just to go to them races. And and kind of support guys I kick I am not for me. You never gonna go to the tour and win but to go and support the leader. And he wins does as good as winning for me. But whether like you say, whether I if I had gone to another team like pure classic specialist team will be better. Now, I don't know. But certainly I think by go into team sky where you haven't got a massive classics. You know, winnow way you all look for one guy, you know, yet your counselors your boons, these these guys you do bit free reign the classic. So while it's not the teams biggest priority. They still allow focus on it. And they still support us, you know, unbelievably well through the classics campaign, and you can go in and have an opportunity. So no, I wouldn't I want to change and I'm happy to look back in only two wins one in tour Britain because everyone else crushed I'm one in sun tool two years ago. So what a few count them. Yeah. No, okay. They don't countless to just the two. But. Yes. So t count you with TT's, but you have someone on you. It's like a punch print your finish at the same time. But it was only one minute. Yeah. Exactly. Leaving after he's going. Which about team sky and being so focused on the tolls nominee five dollars. Fotos Frances anyone for of snot helped win for standing are. Now. I mean, g Losch is obviously be probably wanting to biggest no in from a little kid. Is there anything that stands out all tours, which you know, it was the highlight of think it's bigger race in the world and few riding copy as in like growing up for them and stuff and yeah, any saw memories stunned out from free amusements. Jeez wins or anything like that. I think they're all different and special in their own little way. I think. Yes. Fifteen sixteen seventeen eighteen rode the tour through me when that first Rian and G one of the most recent one. Winning with g with special, obviously, like you said grown up with him similar to how many you grew up. But he was he lived three four K from my house. He had a younger brother at all. The brother. We forested quite a lot together. Little kids like sleepovers and bomb around the streets on BMX is and. So like to think to okay, it's bomber on the street. Some BMX is and then what fifteen twenty years later, maybe ROY non champs lease with these in yellow was quite quite surreal. And we kinda had a, you know, celebrations went on for a while after that we had a good good week after. So that that was a lot was obviously pretty special. But then the ones who through just a special that first one in fifteen was probably the best probably the highlight of the whole lot. Just. You go through so much throughout the whole tour and highs lows blood, sweat and tears literally. And then when you get to Paris, and obviously is in the jersey new they give special kit for the day with a little bit yellow on just ride along the shops these and we kind of rolled on only yellow Kate with him on the back of the jersey. That was that first one was just yes, binding. So that I think that's the highlight year on year. It doesn't get less special. But first one just kind of. From now on is obviously the same stays, and you stay where you are. As your main focus toll reaches what you're gonna do veasley. He's not in. So. Yeah. And next year from you had to head on Buchan J, no offense for me. But GLA more or I'm going to ask you this. Dude, you rather win. If tomorrow is the toll and they will right. You gotta work for one guy star in the Nikon help fielder who is going to be looked me in the eye and say. Jesus christ. Don't dump here about the Bush. Una make one friend year. One enemy here. For me. Yeah. Because that would be five and that would be a record. If you are some people, I think that'd be pretty cool if he could get five and get on the same level as he you know, he know and Merck's and that would be like that that's real history. So and especially after zero and coming through this year, we had like which the him was a disappointment finishing third in the tour de France. Obviously in after you've it. Four times to finish thirds disappointment. Yeah. So I'm probably going to get some Welsh hatred from that GOP tax abuse. But essentially like got asked that before who, you know, who do you wanna win who you loyal to essentially just loyal to the team, whoever, you know. It'd be great position. If we could you know, it's a long way to go to the tour. Anything can happen to me to them. But it just be a great position to go in. If we could go in the same as this year last year, sorry and go in with two leaders who on eleven playing field, and and it just gives you options. And it's it's. It's it's something that not many other teams have maybe movie star half. But to have two top top guys to the top five guys or movie star to the top five guys two guys. Like, we have such a privileged position to go in and strengthen team so much. So essentially here are. I'd say I back either. If I if you put me on the spot, Laura, I'd say free dog Sergey. I'm pretty surprised if we go Jill day, just 'cause he's been you make for longest, but I guess so five tools would be pretty cool. To cycling team car the back of the tax lease PK race radio. The two of the fronts to remind us to tell you this episode of the cycling podcast is sponsored by DNA fit who provide genetically guarded, fitness and nutrition incites for training solutions and long term health benefits. DNA fit has helped fifty thousand people unlock their health potential through genetically personalized fitness and nutrition insights last week. I said I'd never cracked this joke. Again, the number is now fifty thousand one because Richard you sent off your DNA sample and gather you've had your results back. I do I do, but as out of our misery, then my interest in your DNA makes me feel slightly. I'm settled, well, I was stunned by my report by the findings e get low of information about whether your genes make you better to endurance or per based activists and tells you about your view to response, your recovery speed injury, risk optimal diet, whether you have any intolerances or sensitive to. Two things like gluten alcohol caffeine, but the big surprise for me was at my genetic profile falls more in the zone of power activties based on variations in my jeans. So my journey response. Eighty percent power twenty percent insurance, which is exactly the opposite of what I would have expected. I don't really know what it means yet. And I'll find my consultation, but I've devoted most of my sporting life to endure sport. And I wonder now if I if I actually missed my calling is this around about why of trying to say that you should have been Chris Hoy possibly, and I thought I don't know much about jeans, and I've done a couple of books of sprinting sprinters athletics. And so do know the so-called sprinting, gene, ACT n three and I don't have it. So that came as no surprise what so ever am fast, twitch muscles or not very many of them. Some very puzzled by my results. And I look forward to speaking with my consultant. DNA who is Tom Lancashire about something. That was familiar to me because he's a middle distance runner who competed for Great Britain at the Beijing Olympics, and that's coming up soon. So he analyzed yours always interesting because DNA fit has robust signs every gene I look at has. At least three pair reviewed studies on human subjects and in two thousand sixteen they released the world's first genetic exercise intervention by study showing that you can discover what kind of exercise works better for you. From these kind of tests DNA are offering twenty percent off to our listeners. Sue start your personal health journey today by heading to DNA fit. Don't come forward slash TCP to access this current code undiscovered more than DNA fit. Don't come forward slash TCP next week. We'll hear about my consultation with Tom Lancashire. Also, sponsoring this episode of the cycling podcast is the British heart foundation who organized annual London to Brighton bike ride, which this year is on Sunday June sixteenth, and we're going to be writing aren't Lionel. We all we're putting together a cycling podcast team 'cause I'm gonna ride your gonna ride rose Manley from the cycling podcast feminine signed up Simon gala photographer. Tom Walley Adam Barry Jellison road among our production. Team could be a gang of writing from Clapham common down to Brighton. Fifty four miles June sixteenth Father's Day. So. Quite nice day. Take out on the finding right down to the beach looking forward to the the fish chips and opponent of beer when I get to the finish already. I actually wrote the London to Brighton in nineteen ninety when I was fourteen. The only time I've written it investigating the possibility of digging out my nineteen ninety bike and recreating that ride on my nineteen ninety rally bike, but I will update on. I don't want to put it under undue stress on a bit heavier now than I was I was back in nineteen ninety. So we should say on that. But the London to Brighton is what it's basically, the original sportifs charity. Bike ride. It's been going for forty four years for the British heart foundation's life, saving research and heart and circulatory diseases are the causes of one in four deaths in the UK. So it's a Royd for a great cause off the fifty four miles seventeen miles will be on completely closed roads. From what I remember nineteen ninety. It was a really great social. Day out on the bike, perhaps the hardest challenge ever. Although some writers will be significant because as the diction beacon climb at the finish remind you might remember that rich from the wing Kenton classic. And I think the Toyota frowns did the Tudor fronts cover teaching pecan in ninety four count. Remember my after checkmate, but it's a great day on the bike. And it really is accessible to people who ages and abilities. And if you only recently, go into cycling, it's a sort of challenge that you could set yourself and realistically achieve the level of fitness for June. The idol entry phase forty five pounds under eighteen entry phase forty pounds. But we've got five pounds off for anyone who wants to enter by going to the website, which is be h f dot org dot K forward slash l two bay two thousand nineteen. So that's bay dot org dot U K forward slash l two bay Tuesday. Right. One nine and the code is Brighton. Five br. Brighton and the number five so the selecting podcast obey their and hopefully, lots of you will return to special episode of the cycling podcast, Adam bly interviews over. She going do torn share. You're looking at maybe into ground toes or Yorkshire coming up while you're looking for a big goal thing. Jay's mentioned it for the you mentioned it briefly. But you're not really spoke about it. So because to know your plans. Yeah. Only one grant or ones enough anyone arise more than one years is is mental. And then like you said how it's once in a career opportunity. Really? I think will be another world in Britain in the next ten years possibly know. So I think you know, any British pro will be probably pump for that. And every year we recent years we've managed to get a full squad qualify full team. So that ob-obviously be massive for any British pro and. The last two years towards the end the season the Malaga two years ago scaphoid last year. So if you haven't been wills last two years. So you had to go to the world's home to it's gonna be super tough. So whether it's I haven't looked at the cost property, so whether it's suits me, whether they'll be an opportunity for myself or whether will be back in someone else like someone like swifty could be really good around there. Either way. But just go as good as common, hopefully, pornog- shows a home nation. I think I think is a home nation. If you look at the success GB on the road when writing for trade teams has been massive we've been one of the strongest nations in the world across the board. And then if you look at GB as a nation when he representing GB, I don't think we've we've we've really underperform really if you look at the last since since cavern and Copenhagen we haven't really done anything. Yeah. He would have won. If he followed ply the guitar true. And he's pretty bitter about if you still mentioned that he's not happy bunny. So we should should have one, but he didn't follow blindly. But I think as a nation we we have underperformed the last few years when you look at the list of riders we got what they've won across across the board. That doesn't seem to. Kind of go over to to when you're when you represent your nation. So good way to kind of kick things off and trying really put in a good performance as a nation on home tiff and do the JC proud as one thing. I forgot through this with China about your little long career. She like completely forgot about. With on your stock. You went for time. Now, I remember if you people spoke to Frana, no doubt, whether you'd even get back on a bike Glennon getting back for Rubai undoing the toll. I think it was nine months after or something eight months Olsen being as good. An art said probably the best shipping censure by rider after all it's pretty pretty impressive yet going back to when you wrote your like you. Of. Could be the Endo. Yes. Oh, my brother started to week or two after the tour in two thousand seventeen let my head cobwebs for weekend. But it was it was a Mona activity. We went water rafting around midday. And it was just a freak accident. Kind of high levels in the low levels in the water. We jumped off the riverbank which was like it wasn't a high maybe four or five. I jumped in a really shallow patch. Someone jumped to my right someone to my left, and it was deep and shallow patch. And. Yeah. They were right. And I was. But I rea-. In check Australian progress was for I was horrific. It was it was. Yeah. It was a scary thing. Ambulance Cardiff on star the rehab there. But yeah, original prognosis was the the operation. Great surgeon. Pereira. Heated a terrific job. And he came in the room, and he said all look to be straight with you, man. Just Tom is is don't be about Bush said there's a chance you never a bike again. And I was like oh on. Yeah. And he was Aleph rooms in the room that cryan. Dislike. Madan thing, you know, in in a hotel room in hostile room on your own just being told, and it was pretty scary. But then not moment now, I was just like, nah, I'm not an. I'll try and through wrong and given timescales no in in six weeks you failed to get bad in two months. You'll be able to get into your wheelchair blow on all the way along started like beat the beat the time to the next objective and to slowly like I was surrounded by great group of people. I think the reason back at all. And Secondly, so quick is that I was fortunate. I had the best of the best everything. Whether it was the surge new, whether it was the person, the physio dealing rehab and got the best of the best obviously than it just comes down to me put in the hard work in and for you name out pretty much today. It was it was pre relentless like two to three things day, swimming physio. Walk into strong too little things than it, slowly like Volta, Brian table one leg. And. Yeah. Quiet grim. Few months is like a real low. But yeah, it's kinda stayed optimistic throughout all and returned to race in Abu Dhabi fish rake sparks. So that was ended fab so in August. And so didn't miss that much. Really? But only top top in the classics. But you know, I was bit soon certainly going into the tool and California dove. Nato I think it was the best of been. So it's yeah. And I never set foot in a gym before my life. I didn't know I couldn't even spell Jim just. Just. Jay, I am on. Yes. It like the plague AMAN smashed low Jim because I had to not because I wanted to I think not really helped in something carried on from the injury is Jim workin think it's something that I avoid like the plague and do he kind of couple times a week so taking from it. I think slide different with sky, you know, if you like on chats about team, and how much money they've got on this near the I think the main thing we sky is like you said you got the best of the best best. And it's not like, I said view about all these marginal gains. It's not really the equipment. That's all the marginal gains. It's all like this of the catchy Barron gets you back quickly. And I think that slight one thing that everyone tries to do inside Clin. But it's just really quite clueless. How do I don't say? Like getting so moment cover base, all the little bits around the no one sees which people copy, but no one really can catch up with it. So I think thing. Dies teams guy. My is where they got you back to say if you're in another team European safe, you're in I. Know BMC would have been a lot longer road for you. And you still might fine. Anyway, back trying to get into another team. I think in a normal contract is three months. Yes. After three months like a UCR room. If you can't raise for three months can documents. And then after six they can talk further, and I was never even discussed that was like not don't worry about that. Will we got you think? So I was laying in hospital in Prague thinking are so many things going through your head of that moment. Like, another prognosis just knew I couldn't move my leg. And I was in so much pain taxed off, Dave. He didn't even know what done how I done. It could have been blind drunk for new you, and you just text me say and like one of our own we'll look after our own don't worry about thing. We got your back. I think that that to me shows like a great guy. He's obviously great Boston. A great manager. What great guy is like he just genuinely genuinely felt throughout the whole process that they weren't doing. It is I was a colleague on a member stuff. They're doing it because the cat and with Dave and Fran and on Richard Asha, the doctor in particular three just kind of had back through the whole thing genuinely felt like they they they can not not just yet. Not because I was ride 'cause they wanted me to get back. So I could perform and do my job just because they wanted me to get back 'cause I'm a human being and they wanted me to fail to ride a bike again. So I think I lot people big thanks for that. But yeah. This is where you know. But at the same time gave gave six seven years my my career to the team. An Canelo to them and immature and they were Super Bowl to me. And I think certainly it would be without without guys. It would have been a long road back. If you know, maybe it might never come back. So yo pick. Thank you to them show. And even more important unction without as well. I was up paying I know it's two dollars parts being away with are now. To go and see your little so naturally is up in my little baby time with all amounts fixed. But yeah, house pains change. You Moore's arrived rowers, it just made you not good by me. Yeah. So Lawley all of is protein, four months now and house, y'all. Eighteen months world. So yeah, that's overseas. A massive change in life. I wouldn't say it's it's obviously the the best thing that can happen to person. It's just amazing. This puts a smiling face every day when you wake up and see the amount and he's bouncing around and happy. Necessarily changed my outlook on life or anything. But certainly made you think you just wanna make him proud even and think in ten years time, we can look back and sell well, not she did sit in and that was pretty cool. And obviously you want to do the best you can to support him on the family financially. And you wanna you wanna be able to support them? And you want them to have the best of the best. Anyone not spoil him. But you want to you want to have a nice happy life. Yeah. Do you wanna spoil him? So the extra of pressure that you just pawn yourself to try and do the best you count. And and do the best for them. Mega. What about you? Don't talk about you. I don't talk about me. I'm asking the questions on. I'm the interviewer unless you question. All right. I'll ask you quickfire questions. So I'll hold the mic. Ask you a question us on shirt like straightaway. Okay. Rubio Flanders rebuy. Coffee or tea coffee. Why no beer line? What you put in a toaster toast? What the Cavs drink water? Well, no, not deciding podcast is supported by science in sport, science and sport fueled by science for much to science and sport for supporting cycling podcast. You can get twenty five percent of all your signs of sport products. Scientists dot com with the code SIS CPI twenty-five SIS, see twenty-five Entra the checkout. Scientists sports com and get all your sports nutrition products there and the Bank sports gestion products in the world, of course. And thanks to them for their support of the cycling podcast. We heard the second of the atom blind interviews this one with Luke grew Lionel. You're listening intently to that it shot the first time Adam bly her said on the record what led to him leaving the British cycling academy. Hey, dropped in a wasn't explicit about awesome. I might gonna reading between the lines. I mean, we're we're supposed to learn about Luke grew Adam. Adam blind is revealing something of reveal something of himself. He said, well, basically say he Trump in Italian, which I believe confirms they long rumored reason phase departure from the British cycling academy which was a letter aloud foward in talian cloth. The riders at ten I suspect. There was a little bit more too. I think they agree to a mutual parting of the whites from that point. If I as I took from into in some of the things Li gross at as well. That he he could joined quickstep, and we wonder how that might have, you know, his career might have gone the junk. But also that he wants Chris room to win the tour this year rather than guarant- Thomas. I think joining quickstep he's better off where he is. I mean, he's gone undisputed kind of leadership credentials in tame sky for the the handful of rice he could get on the podium at whereas quickstep e one of a number wouldn't they would have a lot of teammates a lot of support. But he might be the he might be the of the tender izing all. Yeah. So I think you know, careful what you wish for not sort of eight better off wary is possibly would just we'll never know. Will we anything else he took from not? I mean, he is a writer who as us in mentioned star, his performance pioneers was very impressive. It does. Look the last year. He was coming off that very serious injury. And the haven't heard him talk in as much detail about what happened on his brother's stank to and as he did there. He was coming back from that very serious injury. And the fact that he made the turn France teamers was pretty remarkable this year he looks like he's got a full season in his legs. And he's he looks like a much better writer than last year. The the struck may was just how I mean, we now with the life of a professional athlete is sometimes hangs by a threat doesn't that particularly a rider suffers a bad injury whether interrupts or no interest, but the this when they were talking about the if you don't rice for three. You your salary can within UCR rose bay reduced. An after six months it can be reduced further. It really does bring home. What tenuous profession is? And. Whatever people think of team sky, they could've taken exception to loot rogue and injured on a stacked and saying, well, you know, that's the way the cookie crumbles kind of approach. But I didn't I don't think that not says quite a bit for the the way the team conducts itself, and I said he is one of one of their own. And here's somebody's come come right up through the system and has become a very important, captain leader, a real real leader, and his leadership qualities have become more apparent. I think over the last the last couple of years, and shall we leave? It there line we've next week with episode three in the atom blind interviews series wonder who that will be do. We know yet are done a little clue, but I'll keep as surprise for now. And look forward to listen to will convene again next week. In the meantime, thanks very much Blythe and Luke crew and thanks Lionel. Thank you, Richard. You've been listening to you. The cycling podcast subscribe to our newsletter at the cycling podcasts dot com to get all the latest news and special office delivered straight to your inbox. This episode was edited and produced by Tom Walley.

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214. Liz Plank (journalist)  men, masculinity, and the unfinished conversation

Think Again

56:01 min | 1 year ago

214. Liz Plank (journalist) men, masculinity, and the unfinished conversation

"This episode is brought to buy big think edge. If you're running an organization of any size big ideas can be the difference between success and going out of business decision making leadership whatever your company needs to learn big thing edge brings you video lessons learning tools from some of the smartest most experienced against teachers on the planet visit big edge dot com slash video gallery to get a glimpse of how big ideas can transform your business. That's big think edge dot com slash video gallery. Hey everyone quick announcement. If you're in the Boston area or if you have some free time on your the hands and the hot air balloon or other mode of conveyance I'll be speaking on Saturday October twelfth at Sound Education Dot. FM and Educational Audio Audio Conference at Harvard mytalk is called beyond the spirit of the staircase learning as play play as learning and in the spirit of think again. There's plenty of time afterward word for a conversation sound education starts next Wednesday the ninth of October and it's full of amazing leaders in thought provoking audio from shows that there's a good chance you're already listening listening to sound education dot. FM from October ninth to twelfth learn more at Sound Education Dot FM hi there. I'm Jason Jason Godsend. You're listening to think again a big thing podcast in the past half century or you're so feminism has had plenty full dealing with the abuse and inequality women suffer at the hands of horribly behaved men and the systems they build two full to worry much about what the hell is going on inside those men and why and there are powerful arguments to be made for the fact that it is not women's responsibility to help men figure out how not to be monsters stirs but I've noticed an interesting shift in the discourse lately in the wake of the metoo movement things happen fast these days that blew up at scale in two thousand seventeen some of the the threads of the public conversation have turned toward what my guest today might talk about in terms of the gender ecosystem the ways that ideas about gender shape our identities and behavior the fact that those behaviors impact everyone in society for better and worse regardless of whose responsibility it is to solve these problems. The question of where masculinity goes from I'm here should matter to everyone. My guest today is journalist and cultural critic Liz Plank. She was named one of Forbes thirty under thirty has produced and hosted multiple acclaimed named digital series for Vox and is the author of the new book for the love of men a new vision of mindful masculinity welcome to think again lists you so much for having me. I'm such a Fan Dan. I'm geeking out here well I. I'm I am really glad to have you here and I'm a big Fan of your book and what you're trying to do do with it. which is which is to say? I think these are really hard conversations to have their really complicated I mean they're complicated because there are so many emotions on all sides and I think there are some very black and white kisses like throughout history and now as well of like horrible disgusting abusive men of what we might call toxic masculinity just egregious black and white examples that we can call out most recently Epstein cheers by the time this comes out. There'll be another exactly yeah exactly and then there are lots of men and I count myself among them somewhere in the middle kind of struggling to figure out where they fit within this whole picture how to be an ally how out in negotiating their own sense of masculinity their own kind of like you know. If if you're a Hetero male like your own kind of sexuality in this crazy messed up landscape so let's start there time that you start to examine your own masculinity. I'm very curious because I think that we often see these men as being sort of a minority or that it's not usual for men to have these questions and this self examination and from interviewing numerous man even the the most progressive ones I would ask them. What's hard about being a man and I see this in the book? They looked at me like you know ask them like how many men don't they don't know how to answer that all over the world they they've never been asked that question and they've never ask themselves that question so I'm just curious for you. Did it happen through an interacting with a woman or did it happen interaction with a man like when did that start. I'm so glad that you asked me that actually because okay so I think these conversations happened although I didn't know that it was about masculinity askew entity I think it started really early. You know the Conservatives that you talk to in the book like people told me Laron and that guy that was with her they frame things in terms of Alpha and Beta males Alpha being good Beta being not good right within that conversation I mean I I have broadly. He's seen in a lot of performances of masculinity that things break down sometimes along those kind of along those lines in terms of like ultra aggressive. You've what you might call Alpha males I don't know and then more reflective thoughtful the ones that kind of get run roughshod over I was the ladder Yeah Yes oh my earliest memories of masculinity are like on fields running around after a ball getting knocked down by some guy who had hair on his arms already at the age of you know eight or whatever and lull beer beer and growing growing up within that and trying to figure you know and then like flash forward I went to a high school in DC in the same Pantheon of schools that Brad Kavanagh went to all boys private live at school and remember sitting around in our what was called the senior room which was sort of this dungeon that they gave us listening to to football and Lacrosse players bragging about date rape bragging about not the what do you call like drugging someone or they were drunk at a party and whatever right and in the midst of the cavenaugh hearings I was like that was triggering so many memories for me because I just sat there hating them but those guys dominated the school and we're like a wolf pack and that's the thing that we don't really talk about which is we often talk about the system like the hierarchy that are at the top women are the bottom and that women are being oppressed astor being marginalized and and then men are you know dominating that hierarchy we don't often talk about the hierarchy within men and that there's also a hierarchy and that there's also a a lot of people who are at the top who get to set the rules and usually those are the bad rules these hyper masculine are these traditional Li sorta sort of matthew and ways of expressing yourself as a man that are very bad for for you and bad for others right this like reaping people as a way bragging about rape right that that heightens things your status not just raping people in your own personal life but you think that that makes you a better man than other guys and you're competing over that and men are somehow somehow you expecting that from you. You're like I mean they're even men probably within that circle of REPEA- men who are lower down in in the hierarchy others snow and I'm convinced and I might be wrong and this there was a moment during the and I don't know if I can say pussy debuted. Don't believe me so I can fucking say her. During the Access Hollywood tape where you obviously hear billy Bush like weasing and I a lot of people obviously were mad at him. I think that the backlash was warranted. Oh and I listened to that tape. I didn't hear a man who was enjoying himself. I heard a man who was laughing out of discomfort and wanted probably the moment to pass and this is why I talk about the the Patriarch is a pyramid scheme team. I think that a lot of men go along with the Patriarchy Bohdan actually enjoy it and the myth that I ascribed to being a feminist and academic space is I have a masters astor's in gender theory. I operated in these for a long time. I was order and reported on women's rights for a very long time and in the spaces there's this assumption assumption that men are enjoying this and I don't. I'm not convinced that you are so this is what I want to talk about a little bit right because so there was a moment where you talk about the great what do you call it the Great Depression a moment when like in the ninety s or so when women are starting to say like enough. I'm done with doing doing the emotional labor for men. I'M GONNA explorer. I may explore sexuality with women. I'm certainly going to spend more time with my female friends. I'm GonNa Layton and in that time period and then afterward as we started to see in social media like proliferation of like Snarky archy terms you know man's blaming bromance man man's trash man spreading whatever whatever so as one of these guys sitting sitting there like I'm neither I'm not on the radically aggressively male end of the spectrum there was a moment where I was sitting there and I was I was one of these guys feeling like you know it's not that easy navigating masculinity period and now I just feel like there's a categorical all out assault on men men and clearly these terms these bombs and whatever the directed at individual behavior but because everything is so scattershot on social media and you're speaking to the whole world world once there was a moment where it was like you know Fuck Whitman feel you know oh totally. I mean I still i. It was on instagram. Yesterday I was looking for you know a perfect gift for my instagram story right which I know you're not you don't have instagram I instagram when we get to see but there's these these gifts of like the the day and one of of them was like boy tears this little bottle that sparkly and as a way of like you know who cares about boy to you and I just again this makes me I mean I'm listening to you and and and I'm like I I feel tingling in my heart of sadness because I just find it. It really makes me sad. It really makes me sad that we would be ridiculing. Ridiculing tears coming from a person based on their gender to me that is the epitome of what feminism should be standing against right because these tears are because this pain is coming from someone who is male then we're going to ridicule them. We're going to humiliate them and that that pain doesn't matter. That's what really I feel like we are. This is a much broader conversation in terms of the political time that we're going through rain. We're seeing this in every kind of way where we're seeing progressives react to horrible herbal tactics from the other side from the most vile president in history in very objective standards. We've never had president literally utter the Word Pussy a campaign in stage and also here. I'm talking about it in a bus right in a workplace setting and I get scared that I see it in feminist spaces and I saw myself they do that and that's why I'm very critically. You are right in the morning. All of you have been extremely active at precisely the moment on social media where all of this is exactly and you know. I WANNA come back to what you were saying about growing up because I so I spent three years in a private private school in Montreal which is it's very still different from the cabin private all boys school but it was I had to change schools basically 'cause I got violently bullied. Exclusively boys and what happened is my best friend. Basically who was boy was the sweetest person he was the most important person in my life visit then I happen to have a boyfriend and everything changed and it went from long beautiful conversations on the phone too long threatening emails to the point. We're like threatening to kill me and so I had to change schools and then I went to because it was at the very last minute ten days before school was starting when I was going into the tenth grade I basically had to go to to the school in my neighborhood because they they were obligated to take me and it was a very multicultural very but a poor neighborhood. You know it's actually in Justin Trudeau's writing in Montreal and at the end of school we would have like cop cars lined up at the metro station. We weren't allowed to wear bandannas because the gang they were literally gangs yeah so all this to say that I went to a much less good quote unquote school and Mike Experience was so much more positive and I didn't inexperience that kind of there's a kind of bullying. There's a kind of pernicious toxicity that is born out of entitlement. I think entitlement is such shaw. There's such toxicity that we don't talk about and the last thing I'll say is that what happened at that. Private school was really difficult for me and like traumatic in many respects what was equally traumatic than what happened to me. Is What I saw happen to other boys. This crew of boys didn't just go after me and very gendered ways right. They groped me. They sexually Rasmi. They also would do these rituals where they would humiliate they would choose one boy that they would that would be out and everyone kind of here after school. They're going to do this thing thing to him and school within the bell rang and they would all run after this guy all of a sudden like one guy would scream it was so tribal one guy would scream some like some word they all start running after him he'd start running away they would grab him eventually because there were thirty or forty of them and they would lift him up in the air and do like a forty person person Wedgie basically and an just again rise him up too so that everyone could see him in pain and be humiliated. Even even the word like Wedgie like at cartoon is is something that is like profound torture tend to interesting right and there's a swirly we he put his head in the toilet like these these terms minimize the I mean allegedly. I've never seen one but yeah it's torture and so it's it's also so sexual to write like to hurt his job. I mean I've never and what is that so I mean so you know these are these are boys that are these are boys that are sort of like something is speaking through them. It's it's this culture of masculinity culture of dominance that has been transmitted to them and that must then somehow be ritualized in these forms of torture that established like as you point out in your book tolerance for pain and suffering bring I mean the hazing rituals that people go through fraternities for example tolerance for pain stoicism like I can suffer without feeling it or caring uh-huh and that's what it means to be a man and then also just yeah the hierarchy right and so there are people as you write in your book. You know you talk about biological article essentially when you talk about that there's there's sort of science on both sides of this this question right of like what are there in the differences between men and women biologically exactly and if so how strong are they and I don't know at one point you kind of say it's a spectrum but then for the most part I think you're saying that that it's just too complicated located to actually assign clear differences in behavior based on biology but those who lean toward biological essential ism and then those people like Jordan Peterson talk about what are you. What's your name for them? You call this. I don't know the moral Pana panicked moral panic warriors you know they're clinging to indefens- against shifting gender norms they're clinging to very rigid kind of biologically based or anchored conceptions of what it means wants to be a man what it means to be a woman you know where I'm at in all this right now is like and I didn't study gender studies or anything but where I'm at is that gender is is clearly a performance it looks to me like and I've read some of the studies at well as well on both sides. It looks to me like there may be some biological elements. I feel it's okay for there to be a little bit of both I get nervous when I think that people on the gender studies end of things want to automatically dismiss any research that might suggest a biological logical difference yeah I agree. I think that we this is what we do. You know we it feminism and gender studies versus. I don't know yeah neuroscientists Jordan peers here's Energy Rogan or whatever but I think that we often are responding to an extreme with an extreme where nuance is if you're admitting to any nuance in in this conversation then you're giving them. You know they're going to use that little bit so then fear the fear which I think is legit is that there's a danger in there that they're then going to use that as a platform on which to build this reminds me of his even win the book I do talk about women's responsibility in some of this right that we obviously need men to be critical of masculinity of sort of idealized masculinity. They need to be having these conversations challenging each other. There's a I mean most of the Labor we want men to be doing for themselves but at the same time I am we also need knowledge that women are transmitting some of these values they are raising their boys according to a lot of this as as well and Yeah Tommy Laren Susan banker at my only negative review right now is from Susan Banker Phyllis Schlafly who I know did not read the book because she doesn't it really is that she's in it. She's like plank whose only thirty two clearly doesn't know you know. Basically she's like she's too stupid and then I love the clearly not read it 'cause you're. You're in it. Suzanne and I told her I was like lemon of coffee but I do think that it's important to acknowledge that we are all part of the system and again before I started writing this book I probably would have never said that because somehow admitting that women are are somehow complicit or responsible then opens it up for Jordan Peterson and for Tucker Carlson to say that women are the one who are it's like our fault right and and it's so annoying that we can't have these conversations and there is and there is this thing of women wanting to divest themselves legitimately of the emotional labor of fixing axeing men. I get that Lake like as you point out in your book there are so many relationships in which women find themselves just playing the role of like therapists emotional emotional hug to to the man's wounded feelings because he has so few outlets but you know the problem is that if somebody the is in a pathological state they're not the person best suited to take care of themselves so indeed some of the change or some of the conversation Asian. If there is any change happen does have to be initiated by women because a lot of men are in a position to do it effectively and then I think and simultaneously concurrently. I think there's a lot that men can do in terms of starting groups. You know I I I don't want to over talk but I mean those are all I. I love that I've not had your I've done. I've done a lot of these and none of the questions I've had before so I'm digging them so awesome. Okay well the please feel free to mentor up to I if I talk to my but no I was thinking that I thought about like Robert Bly. Remember the poet Robert Bly. He did this like Man's movement in the ninety s men's movement this was when I was in college and I wanna hear from like nine hundred ninety four and that was a big kind of cool. Neo feminist moment like Anita Franko was busting out in like all female singer songwriters and there was it was a moment for women's empowerment and sex positivity and and so on and for Hetero males not so much of that kind of conversation men kind of did what they did. I suppose but like it wasn't cool. You know to be a Hetero male but oh crap not so-called so in the midst of this the poet Robert Bly who I admired he was a good poet it started this kind of men's movement meme we're going into the woods and like beating on drums and stuff and they were kind of trying to get in touch okay so there were trying to get into it was like there was this this mythology of iron John from like ancient England. I think that they were drying upon and it was basically like men trying to get in touch with a kind of archetypal archetypal masculinity that was that was in touch with emotions and that would kind of like reconnect them to themselves in a natural way right alone alone or were they together it was men in together and then and it was quickly and roundly ridiculed. You know like across the board as is like Oh look at these either it was like too sensitive you know like on the one side or it was to Raleigh on the other side and it's like when I think back acted some something like that is need there need to be groups of men coming together and talking about masks because often do you feel do. Do you feel like when men get together. It's often comes out. These environments ends up being toxic. The this is my perception right. If you look at the most mail man I duNNo. I don't know like maybe burning man. I don't know I don't know what happens there but but when you think about fraternities I made like a sports games and the kind of toxicity that happens there. That's it's my perception that there are a lot of spaces for meant to be together but that those spaces don't always bring out connection between men and don't always allow a healthy expression and an intimate connection between because that's frowned upon right and even think I mean I think this is hilarious. I think it's hilarious that men can't hold hands or hug in public they can slap each other's but if they're wearing football uniform what does that say about you know that you have to have this hyper masculine uniform and Literally Armor Maria you of your shoulder pads and you're protected Elis and then you can touch each others butts and that's acceptable than if you're just two guys hanging out and one of us going through break-up or one of you just happy to see the other one you can't just like touch each other and sit next to each other and enjoy a readable meal in a restaurant on Friday night without you know if feeling awkward if you guys are you I heard conversations with some of my best friends are extremely progressive. My friends who saw from Montreal and he was like when I hang out with other guys dressed down. I think it's so amazing. Women you guys go out to Brunch together and you get you put on makeup pretty and I don't under- I think that's so sweet that you're you know putting so much effort into your valuing at that time with the other person and if I wear Cologne if I'm hanging out with other guys it's only acceptable. I'm going on a date after there's something there that if I wear something too nice they're gonna say like what. What are you doing going out with a woman after this so let me ask you this going into the realm of just broad anecdotal experience here I would imagine I mean and I've seen movies and you know no read books and stuff so I mean it's my sense that among groups of women there can be you can have on the one hand extremely emotionally open and supportive communities and on the other hand a lot of competition perfect? You know which creates the same kind of emotional repression that might be talking about among men exactly exactly and and that's the thing about shame right sober brown talks about the difference between quote unquote female and Male Society so for women. It's an perfect after the perfect body the perfect after the the perfect friend have to be the perfect mother perfect co worker and for men. It's I can't be right. I can't show weakness and both of those shame. MM prevents is the number one way to prevent a connection and intimacy with other people because you feel like you can't show who you truly are right that there's something that you need to hide or be literally ashamed of are perfection and like strength different things here if I think about it trying to be perfect and trying to be fine and positive all the time is kind of projection objection stronger percent and I think that that's why Bernie Brian would say both of those the antidote to that is really right so for women to be vulnerable with each other are usually and I do this all the time which I did this yesterday. Someone comes up to me. Oh my God you're booked her looks so greater and I'm like I'm literally Virginia. I'm not wearing a bra right now. I think I've worn underwear two days in a row like you know what I mean. I showed up to this party yesterday right off the Amtrak in my sweatpants because I didn't even have time to and no no. I'm not perfect and the book is doing well but I'm still insecure about certain things. I you know I had this weird interview and I don't feel like I was perfect. It and I think that for men that challenge you know you you tell me but it seems like the challenge would be to in your conversations with men admit to weakness whether it's sure in yeah either so a relationship that I didn't perform in this part of my life and I don't really know how to deal with it exactly yeah I mean even as a non hyper pumped hyper masculine man man. I think that it would be hard for me with the exception of a few specific friends that I can think of to have an interview went badly and I was is feeling bad about it to say anything like that. Because then this sort of thing would hang in the air where you know rather than supporting you there would be this sort of sense of then. Maybe you really did fuck up. You know whatever whatever's already in your head get worse amplify it so funny God God. This is so funny because I mean I'd probably won't tell us aim but one of my really really close friends is a dude and it's just so I I I have male friends. I love and I love him and it's funny because I love him in so many ways but he's so bad at but it's almost comical. Also I still go to him when I have a really big problem like I went to him with like a break-up a year and a half ago with you know is a big relationship. We were together for a long time and I was like Oh we broke up and he was like no I I loved David and I was like that's not what I wanted to at one point he also said I was talking about it. I was like you know it's been really hard and you know I just I mean I'm thirty tune now. I just don't want to do this again and he said well. Maybe you just like can't date. Maybe just not meant to date people and I was like I won't say his name. It don't mat like Matt. This is the this is the last thing I want to hear and again. I don't know why I'm saying this. I think it's it makes me think of Mattis has a good heart is such a good person in my life such a loving person my life but sometimes I feel like he is not equipped to have certain conversations with me and I wonder if I can relate to that because I go to women now with these difficult conversations much more often because I know that women are equipped actually really tell me something that'll be helpful and not make me feel worse. This episode of think again is brought to you by stitch fix kids. I love my son emory but with very rare exceptions options I do not love shopping for his clothing. It's hard to find things that are affordable comfortable good looking and well made and even when you do find them kids have this nasty habit of growing all the time mm-hmm so you have to keep replacing them the clothes not the kits stitch. 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I like I'm just hoping that the closing will be cool and then I enjoy it some kind of new look maybe for you okay so right on the inside of this box wchs on the inside of the flaps. There's all these little messages like one box. He goes unlimited creations like creative robot or for a car or a cat box. I think most likely this is going to become a cat box immediately for a Muffin yes I I'm probably spoiler alert no exaggeration emory. My wife and I loved every single item of clothing that stitch fix kids sent be with us next time for part to you. The real on boxing begins get started today at stitch fix dot com slash kids slash think again to try stitch fix and get an extra twenty five percent off when you keep everything in your box and as a bonus stitch fix will waive the twenty dollar styling fee when you use this shows special. Url that's stitch fix dot com slash kids slash think again stitch fix dot com slash kids slash think again I run into this. You know I've been married for like sixteen years and so I run into this with thank you you know my wife and I run into this with respect to if she is just just feeling the need to talk about something. I think she'd be more qualified to explain this than me but I think I'm getting better at this but where my tendency is is always to be like super definitive super honest and super like repairing the problem as opposed to actually listening and yeah and what she wants simply to vent yes and there's a fear in me which I think now this goes back and this is the number one problem by the way therapists said the number one problem in heterosexual relationships. Men Women is is an on the man side is that because women do things too but but is that listen don't correct right right right exactly and the reason you know when I analyze the impulse right when I sit there and I think why am I trying to do this and I think I learned this from my mom who I would say taught me more in some ways about masculinity them. My my father did simply because she was the more active parents he was busy. He was traveling right and from her. I learned to not fall into an emotional swamp and you should you know th there's there's a danger that the person would be trapped there and so you always go to solution they're selling yes solution ISM as opposed to like indulging indulging and so this is some sort of productivity oriented pragmatism or whatever she learned from somewhere. Maybe it's how her dad was now. I don't know you know and that's you know it's kind of like the love language is right that it's important for women to understand that in that scenario the you're trying to help this is how you're showing love to me is trying to fix my problem for me and I need to be able to express to you that that's not. That's not how I the right and so it's a thing to of and this is why I think it's so important for women all genders to be in these room together and have these conversations together because there's something that there's a lot of miscommunication here. There's all men to make some changes but I think that women need to make some changes to do. We need to be able to demand what we want. We need to be able to say what we need to and again. These are very gendered notions of being these are things that we've learned and and they're not helpful for us and that's worth that I've been doing for the last ten years in my relationships but also in my life which is I can't just blame men for all my problems. I I can't say well. He's just trying to always fix me. I need to say don't do that and if you keep doing matt than I can blame you but but I think that it's important it's really important corn for us to see how just that we've learned things that are not helpful and then we need to work together to figure out how to fully express and be there for the people in the way that they want to be so so where this gets really complicated than because the way we're talking right. Now I mean it's you know it's either. It's either socially or it's biologically essential Est.. We're saying right right. Men are doing this. Women are doing that right where things get really complicated as when we talk about performances of masculine and feminine across the sexes I mean this is where I think people get very frustrated and confused because when I'm talking to you about this like all of this makes sense to me but if someone came along right now and said well that's it's you know that you are essentially everything and that's actually not like there are many people on all aspects of that spectrum and then how do we what do you think you have that conversation. It was a when when you read all these things I've laid out in the book in terms of you know the the the brain is a Unisex Oregon. A lot of these differences are sort of created created by our society. Do you in terms of your experience of being a man right. How much of it do you think is socialized? How much of it do you think is ingrained right so oh my sense is that first of all there's a spectrum of sexuality like in terms of hormones that people produce even the our bodies yeah and and then there's a spectrum of gender gender performance? It makes sense to me that biology is kind of the origin of some of this stuff stuff that like it emerged from biological differences that are not set in stone that are not you know that our spectrum but then like everything human human like we've manufactured social rules around it and not everyone fits into the right bucket or whatever and so people suffer a great deal and I think that it is really important that we fight to make room for people to express and live whatever they're our kind of sexuality and gender is wherever they fall there and not trap them. I was one of those boys by the way who wanted an easy bake oven desperately and and there's so many people listening right now like I think if someone bought me an easy bake oven now fall weeping to the floor like I I wanna a damn easy bake oven like I've decided that's my fifteenth birthday present still make them. I'm getting a God damn easy. You Bake them so proud of you that you that might be very very transformative ritual you can do for yourself. Cookies are not as good as you think they let artery yet. It'd be it's cooked but yeah I mean I remember how pull it out and it was still liquid and I was like okay. I guess I'll drink the cookies yeah where I feel like we fuck things up is that there is a Chinese medicine and try and Salafi of being in the young writes female energy. male energy female energy is intuitive collaborative warm it takes in things and the male energy exudes its dominant. It's aggressive and there's never been this idea that you need to have if you are a man you only have to have the male energy is that everyone has bows host and not that there's one energy better than the other and that's where I almost feel someone one of our book events this woman actually we were at a female space so there were there was one dude but it was mostly women and this woman said what do I do and my female friends like are working in these highly. You know finance these is traditionally male environments and they're taking quote unquote toxic masculinity. You know she's like yelling at me and she's being really brash and and I don't know how to handle that and angry you for not having a solution to that problem. She was trying to tell me frustrated but it was interesting for her to say women women are taking on these matt sort of exactly and in a way it's because that is I think the misinterpretation of feminism right that that if you look at the way that feminism is being interpreted by even people Ivanka trump Ivanka trump is a perfect example right she is this so-called. She calls herself a feminist anti Dan right. What was her book called the Work Right Right and it's this which which as you point out in the book like women have always you know maybe not for money but right and and Brown and black women have always worked against their will and and yeah maybe white women's grandmothers fought for the right to work as she says but women have worked forever but ah but there's this idea that that we have to take on male actor male characteristics that we have to interrupt people we have to talk for longer and this assertiveness? I think that sometimes James goes overboard and I found myself. I'm monitoring myself like okay well. I have stopped winning exclamation points at the end of my slacks. I have to take on this kind of bitch etched role because that's how men act in the workplace nine ordered to have value. I need to do that to any time I hear somebody saying you have to do x y Z to succeed because that's the only way to do it. I feel that I'm being coerced into some form of masculinity or some some some social performance that that I don't trust. I'm like no. I don't know I don't like because there's a million examples of people who you did something in a different way in every possible context and who succeeded and you know I I don't know where people get the gender-neutral gender-neutral balls to to you know to arrive at that definitive statement. Yeah I know it sells books it does and and and and it protects people I think it makes people feel like they're protecting you. I think that's what a lot of parents are doing right now and and educators and I love parents and educators and they are the hardest working people in the Muslim born job in our society which is raising raising the next generation. I also get worried when we don't have this conversation about what we're doing two boys and the role models the toys all of this right we've had this conversation with girls and we just not we haven't had a mainstream mainstream conversation about it with about boys and they think that what's happening is that a lot of parents think that they're protecting their boys by telling them not to cry by telling them don't put no Polish on Oh. My Gosh don't ever do that. Don't don't get don't even ask for an easy bake oven. There's something wrong with you when you do that because they think that they're protecting them and ultimately because of our society they are those guys were the victims of this forty percent wedgie were often the ones that were believed to be gay that were believed to be feminine that were were not like if you go to prison for example you'd better know how to defend yourself kind of thing and that is tragic. It is yes it is and so we need to transform our society and we did it really quickly with women not that when I got we're not there yet right. This is the unfinished revolution and as long as we have this unfinished under revolution. It's actually tax on women. It's tax on girls. It's obviously the attacks on men and boys too but it just it doesn't benefit anyone for us to just have this one-sided view where girls can act more boys and it's bad ass. It's cool but if boys girls it's not and that comes back to the feminine and Male Energy Right We've diminished such important quote unquote traditional feminine qualities the collaboration of empathy of compassion those are the things that we need more of in our society right and the fact that we put them we place them in the a higher key as below the male characteristics is not just bad for women. It's bad for men. It's for everyone you know it's very deep and it's very pernicious and it requires part of the solution requires a lot of looking looking inside oneself. I mean I think even probably a lot of women who would consider themselves. Progressive may find that they're less attracted to a man Dan who isn't super assertive or whatever because that's the model of manhood that they grew up with her and then what are you unconsciously creating through through those preferences hundred percent and where are those preferences come from and do they make you happy finally right so you like. That kind of guy are you staying with. I WANNA go right. Is that working for you is that is that kind of relationship really what you desperately need and want or exactly exactly exactly and to be honest I've been through that journey right and I talk about going on the chivalry diet and realizing I was sort of part of this problem and that I was demanding thing that the men in my life have more emotional capability and stop being so obsessed with this armor that you have as a man but then I also at the same time when they wouldn't pay day on the first day when they wouldn't go out of their way to make me feel like I was on this pedestal because I'm a woman in the relationship then I I wasn't happy with that and again again. That was my preference but the people I was ending up with and that I was selecting were not the people that I ultimately wanted to be with their were making you no because we weren't able to have conversations or when I would have a problem they would say. I don't understand I gave all these things literally right and then you feel bad and then you realize you're again you're fitting into these preordained roles and it's unconscious. It's just like well. That's just the way you're supposed to be but it's it's not making people happy and I think that this is why it's so important for us to have this conversation right now. Before the crisis point I mean I've had men come to my book events and say you know what guys that I just microphone in just broke up with me I mean he had tears in his eyes. He was like I'm going to read this book. I hope it helped helps me. You know I need to be better and just think if we were able to have this conversation before the breaking the point before the divorce before things fall apart as more of a preventative thing how many yeah like marriages and relationships could we say. It's funny honey. You know the conversation that will be coming up later. In the season on the show we'll be with you can do has just written a one of the best books that I've ever read on on race. The about anti-racism it's called how to be an anti-racist and there are two. He's making he's making a similar move and his own life. Journey took a similar trajectory where like he went to a historically black college. He went through a kind of revolution where he decided added that basically all white people were evil. He then ultimately has come to start a foundation and do super important antiracism work which is grounded in the idea that racism is not a person it is a its policies and ideas that emerged from policies and that racism awesome is possible for everyone that you know which is not to make a big pollyanna dancing a circle nobody's to blame Blah Blah but like if we actually want to make can change there has to it has to begin with human compassion and understanding and assuming the best in people not the worst in people and that is not just a better more productive approach to building a better society. It's also such a better way personally to go about your life. The thinking that people are not out there trying to hurt you that they're not out there trying to make the world a worse place. They're trying to make it a better place that they've just been misguided in how how to do that again brown I mean how many times will I be a game a podcast but she has done work with domestic violence survivors survivors female domestic violence survivors. She noticed a difference in terms of women who would leave their abuser and those who had more trouble leaving and obviously there's economics. There's there's all kinds kinds of different things that go into that but all of those things aside the women who are more likely to leave their abusers. Were I think counter intuitively the ones who believed that the men who were abusing them. We're doing the best that they could write. You would think the woman who are thinking he's doing the rest of what he has would then be more likely to stay day and put up with Shit. No it's actually the opposite I found that through writing this book. That's been my journey to of believing that men around me are doing the best that they can with what what they've been given and what they've been given pretty bad and maybe if we change what they've been given they'd be able to be better man and that has made my life personally. I think it made this book better and I think it made this conversation more productive and more accessible for people. It also made my life so much better 'cause I'm not. I'm not putting up with things that I may have put put up with before because I don't think that men are inherently like this. I don't think that men are just built to hurt me. I think that they are built to be good and they are equally in need and they want to give intimacy but I'm not gonNA stick around. If you're not able to you I'm not gonNA stick around with something that's acceptable right and even even disregarding putting aside for the moment the practical consequences in terms of relationships just at the level of the heart. Oh God yeah I'm able to see people bowl as people makes a tremendous difference where you're coming from. Oh my God totally totally we're used to having this conversation about gender from the head and I've been having it from the head take time literally in academia and in my theory citations and my experts are better than your experts exactly and it's it's political right. It's like we need to fight for this system but we need to have a conversation around gender from the heart and when you have it from the heart that conversation is so much more rich you're able to tap HAP- into to your point earlier you know men are our fathers particularly. I think have never really been given the tools to have this conversation and to understand their lives is through a gendered framework and that some of their experiences again in those male spaces or even with women or with their mothers are with their fathers that I wasn't the problem problem and that it wasn't my fault. That's why this conversation to me so hopeful and positive is that it's a conversation about self-discovery and understanding your life life and thinking about your life and having more information about why your life has been the way that it is and why you are the way it is and having more control and freedom over who you want to be in the world and I think another form of toxic masculinity which we may not have all the time to unpack but let's a little bit is this thing what I think of as a kind of like rational scientism which can exist in men and women but but this idea that going back to where we were saying about the head and the heart the idea that any conversation that is somehow anchored in the heart or emotionally connected is a danger to objectivity and that we must only and always debate and argue at the level of facts and resources and scientific proof and so forth and so on I understand how science works and I fully support scientific investigation toward as close as we can get to objective truths but there is so much that when we discuss debase debate it that way it comes down to WHO's the more effective rhetorician what studies have come out recently gently. I mean you know who can more quickly site how many experts and anyone can throw experts back and forth forever forever. They make any study to anything you want. It kind of you know. If you're looking to prove anything you can probably find study that that that proves it and I think this is my own thinking and I don't know if this is true but I think the women generally are more skeptical of objectivity in this rational right this scientific approach because we have been so mistreated exactly and we are very skeptical of objectivity because quote unquote objectivity has usually meant a male perspective a white male perspective and people of color are also very subjective of this scientific approach because you know we as we know me I lay out a little bit. Ah Researching the book about this but how medical students for example yeah eugenics and medical half a medical students believe that black people feel less pain from the same amount right and that their their blood coagulates less quickly these are very dangerous lies circle of like atrocious quote unquote objectivity exactly and so oh. I think that that's why we're more yes skeptical of it and again I think skepticism as good in either direction right that come from science and medical people will and I'm really disturbed by what happened with the Anti Vaccine Movement and so I mean there's a part of me that very strongly wants to hold the line not on saying that science always has all the answers but like let's not be so open minded that our brains fall out a great but that's why you need again. It's you need to you need need the biology conversation with conversation you need the seating ground on one thing doesn't mean that it's all or nothing and it's hard to have nuance lots especially on instagram new. That's why I keep one one toe in it like I mean I know it's where a lot of the conversation nation is but twitter in the past than I am now. I never really made the jump to Instagram facebook quite heavily especially around the election and like it's it's just yeah yeah. I gotTA keep it like at arm's length. People come after you mean even choosing to write a book about men was a rest and I knew you. They're brave out there. I like how you I like how you go and both talked to people who extremely disagree with you and just kind of like I mean maybe there's some bravado in there too but you brush things off well to thank you talk things out at Ikea and just it's helped me. You know I echo hosted a show with a Republican for a year now. We've just wrapped the show actually last night and it was hard in many respects but it was also it changed changed me it really did and against my will. I DIDN'T WANNA change too but it helped me understand. It didn't necessarily change my position on core issues and core values that I have love but it's made me understand the importance of framing and that framing certain conversations in the way that we are sometimes when it comes to mind is is a perfect example and and gender but even climate change and everything the framing is really important and I don't actually use I try not to use the worst toxic masculine and I noticed and and thanks for pointing that out you know I mean but that took me. That was a journey and I I think it appeared one hundred seventy two times. If someone really bad in the book and ten days before it was about to go to print I wrote to my editor and I was like I'm GonNa take that term and she was like no. You're not and I said I can't put that in actually think it's really not the right framing for this conversation an and in it's only reaching people who are already who already understand what it means and I want to be reaching people who may have never really thought about masculinity at all and I think using the term idealized masculinity makes it a more parallel conversation that we've had with feminism which is Howard the these ideals right affecting you that you are not able to achieve and it's a much more positive framing then toxic mass like these things are doing wrong. Yeah I can listen to it and I can think think okay toxic. Masculinity is the kind of masculinity that is toxic for the aspect of masculinity or the performance of masculinity that is toxic for both men man. Yeah I can distance but I can see a lot of men just seeing that has meaning men are toxic or something which is missing it and if Sheryl Sandberg Britain Leinen and called it toxic feminity overcoming. I don't know if it would have been a book and and I don't know if it would have reached so many people that would have never really identified as his feminist or would have thought about these things and so yeah. I think it's framing is super important framing even in you know Georgia Gov is don't think of an elephant and he's talked a lot about framing and and particularly in the context of political conversation so he talks about climate change for example that we should be framing climate change yes as we need to take care of the earth when you say care of our of of this generation we'd be kind to our planet. IF WE WON'T REPUBLICANS TO BE ON board that might not be the best way to framed problem. Perhaps framing it as a security threat which it is the greatest threat to our national security is us us all being underwater because of these hurricanes and because of these terrible you know our our inaction when it comes to this climate crisis and even calling it a climate crisis versus climate change I think was very smart change in in framing in climate activists because it is a crisis right and so it's not about saying being or framing and for Conservatives or Republicans in terms of economic threats as well and it's not to rank one of you know the one timing's better than the other but we need to and again through these conversations with my kosher Michael I I would realize wow yeah you're not against me. You don't don't WanNa be you're not evil. You're not trying to destroy the earth you just have different priorities are different values but our values can intersect and we can find this quote unquote common ground which is so so cliche now to us in our conversations but I really do think that there is but we have to be able to talk to each other as humans thinking you're worried about mass immigration Russian go ahead and heat up their area south of the equator another. You know five degrees and see what happens so what I knew would happen because these are important issues and I just wanted to talk has happened which is that we have spent what would have been or what I allotted as the whole hour just talking eight so I love this and thank you for sharing and being really vulnerable in this conversation and yeah sharing parts of you with me and all of us. I think he's a terrible narcissist or I understand that it's to my benefit as a man or nothing alive other men too I think you for your book and for opening these conversations so generously and I think it's important work that you're doing thank you. Thank you bill so I'm here with Liz. Plank in her book is for the love of men a New Vision for mindful masculinity. Thanks for being on the show thank you. That's our show. I love to hear your thoughts on any of the ideas we talked about today. We use find me at Jason. Gots what's DOT com you can sign up for my someday to exist newsletter or email me directly from there and we'll be back next week with something extraordinary. I hope you can join GEICO PRESENTS MONSTER COUNSELING DRACULA. Tell tell me how you're feeling. No one understands how only these no one will even let me into their house. I knock knock but ignoring me what else I look in the mirror back. Don't even see myself anymore if you don't see yourself clearly. Can you really expect others to. I'm having a breakthrough. It's not not easy to be a vampire but with gyco it's super easy to

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The General | Part 1

Monstruo

29:44 min | 1 year ago

The General | Part 1

"What you're about to hear is based on actual events listener discretion is advised? He walks the muddy streets of the rural African shantytown had held high back straight hands swinging by his side's like sledgehammers though he is terrified terrified that someone may meet his gaze and recognize him for who he used to be he strides forward without apparent. Trepidation whatever will be will A. B. and whoever should try to strike him down best you it from a distance and via bullet he is reborn. Yes yes but not turned meek and although he is certain that is Lord and Savior has accepted him into the light. He knows that many still along to see his eyes go flat. And for the hundreds of unrest spirits to flock from the shadows of the underworld to swarm him him before he can reach the pearly gates I remember a time of great evil. The large man says S. Holding the Bible in front of him just over top of the pulpit. His fingers bled along the back of the book as dark as the warned other covering the walls walls of the church are lightly yellowed stucco maybe older than all the faces looking at him from the rose of warm plastic chairs and then again maybe not. The windows are tidy square holes into the walls at even intervals and haven't held glass in a long time before this church was consecrated after the fighting the pastor. I told him a farmer down the road used for stabling and storage where we brothers in Christ and brothers and country turned and against each other lack devils. He continues a few of the men nod but most of the women don't even look at him. The people in the room are dressed in a mix six of traditional and western styles with the women mostly draped in loose colorful fabric in the men mostly cloudy genes and two button polo shirts. You Uh many of you know my name. He says. The nods are more frequent now and spreads the crowd amongst the women as well some some of the mutter under their breath but the priest pastor Thomas Clears his throat loudly in the muttering subsumes. Joshua Bligh the man once called general unrolled butt naked nods. The priest continues on still holding out the Bible. You know the evil I have done. You have seen it in the streets. Perhaps with the television you have heard it in the news you have maybe even God forgive me. mm-hmm suffered through it yourself. He scans the eyes and sees is in turn men and women some interested in most mainly board. They are here instead. Stead of where they want to be in a Sunday like any penitence but he does not see the fire of revenge in any of their faces. The clear number will gaze of those who know they truly know what is done because he has done it to them inside his heart. He breathed a sigh of relief. Continues yes we all remember a time of great evil but I remember a time of evil before all that because when I was a child the devil came to me and said he was a god of my people a creature named John Elway. Who would make me me a powerful priest if I did? Evil in his name is a small shock. Laugh of child from within the audience that he ignores my tribe was behold into this creature who would make powerful priests of the first born children of our tribe but to gather this powerful ourselves. We had to draw the blood of the innocent women. Young men children were best BBC. Even this draws a gasp from the crowd as he expects today's in the first or last time for this speech he gotten good at it better really since he he carded out its earliest iterations for the Truth and Reconciliation Council but it was in those earliest days of new life in the late nineties running for the new government. Government is little army dead in scattered. That he I thought all these things up. The people are rapt with attention. Now because this is what all the truly religious this attend church for they wanNA hear the vicious and Karnal the awful and so he begins to try it out for them he tells them about his villages God and assorted history knowing none of them would ever have come into contact with the members of his small community enough to call him on his his truce. Their faces Zor open horrified interested. I'll save want a boy at the back of the room is bare. Chest shines with sweat despite the relatively actively mild early morning heat he occasionally glances at bly and when he does he's smiling chuckling laughing and exchanging low words with another another boy sitting beside in that. Like you can't see it was. It was a custom of my village to determine a boy's worth at the age of nine to participation in a great Malay a battle royale that would determine the value of the winner. The Wall who fought bravely would be admitted into the circle of elders. This is a victory I one and so I was taken before the throne of the Mayo. custodes power on me. Unlike any you might think to believe. Kill the boys. Laughing has grown like barely himself speak peak lies yelling now. Trying to talk over it the Penitence and the little mud and stone church are fully invested. Thinking is raising volume as part of the show he rises to casino. Finally slamming the Bible down on the little pulpit hard enough to make the things shake violently on its slender metal support. There is silence in it. He looks through the crap. All the men and women have their eyes on him rapt with attention regardless of whether or not they believe or even care you to believe in his story the magnetism of his words withdrawn them which is always been the trick. Draw people to like iron fillings through the mud. Did he looks to the back row again. Sees more boys now for a total of five and all of them are hushing each other and rubbing shoulders. He could see see every face and they are all vaguely familiar. Save for the center. Most this boy skin black charcoal streaked with dirt sits with his face hidden behind the tall yellow head. Wrap of tired. I'd woman nursing a baby though he is silent. Shoulders shake with barely contained laughter. As if he senses blaze's attention he stops leans slowly to the side revealing his bald head and the smooth unreal contours of his face and his eyes ice holy black and perfectly round peeled back like spiders. Are you familiar with lime town. The acclaimed number one. PODCAST is now the best new series on streaming the video and it's only available on facebook. Watch lime town is a show that follows the mysterious disappearance of over three hundred men women and children all without a trace in the fifteen years since not a single survivor has been located. It contains elements from all of your favorite genres drama suspense crime and even a touch of Scifi. Best of all Jessica Biel takes on another incredible role for this series as an investigative instigated reporter who goes searching for answers. Her performance in this intense story will leave you speechless as she unravels the unsettling truth behind the disappearance. If you're looking for a great new series you need to watch lime town now streaming only on facebook watch the boys move in waves around him making him think of water sloshing in a bucket his feet. It felt unstable since the third hit and now he feels like he is in that bucket himself unable to find purchase on the slippery. Any plastic bottom the boys dance and he spends pushed by their current clutching the little plastic shopping bag full of loose bills bill to his chest. Then last hit comes his vision graze and he falls to the ground half expecting to see water surging up around found him sucking him down into the muddy earth but it is midsummer and hot. The ground is dry enough to fill the air around him with a soft cloud of dust that settles lightly over his purple suit. The boy standing closest to him a bare chested criminal of child named Momo is grinning winning. His gap toothed. Smile hangs in place over the back of Joshua's stolen money next time you see me you better just give me what I want. The boy says his face getting serious. He raises his chin. I am the boss around here. Purple Boy Away with that P and the others run toward the road through the alley. They dragged him through. They are all maybe fourteen at the oldest Joshua's twelve. He sits for awhile looking through the alley at the shapes of people passing in the heat people he was only a short shortwhile ago selling cups of Koolade and nice to some of them. Maybe saw him get dragged back here but it wasn't something they wanted to get involved in. They had places to be better things to do than look after the young. Boy Hawking Kool aid his Godley purple suit. Eventually he stands stands and makes his way back to the drinks. Stand he'd set up. It was all still in place. Say for the ice in the cooler beside his little chair. Ten or so minutes of arguing with Momo than being dragged into the backyard of the nearest shop for a beating had been more than enough to melt his ice down to slush rush. It takes a couple of the watery eyes for himself and sits legs sprawled out and takes SIP. There is an odd taste to the water. They he looks at the Cup and sees tendrils of bright red spreading around in the plastic. He touches his face and realizes his nose is bleeding. Not not badly but bad enough. He watches the blood spread in the water touch longer and then drinks it all down forcing himself to finish so hard certain fast. It gets a coldness ache. He sets the cup down and rubs his forehead eyeing the people walking past from beneath the bridge of his fingers. Then he wipes his nose clean and flicks the blood and the dust. A woman comes up to the stand. And he's all smiles again like flipping a switch then. Then he's backed pouring the KOOL aid and pocketing. The money's like nothing has happened at all mm-hmm but he doesn't forget Momo and the others not the first time he's been targeted but by far the worst it's just something that happens in Liberia. In Africa there are the bullies and there are the bullied and everybody knows that the governor knows that he takes what he wants from the people in the warlords and the warlords know that and they take what they want from the people and their generals and the generals know that and they take what they want from the people and their soldiers. It's like being a rat sometimes the way he has to pick after scraps in the corners corners. Nobody else wants to visit. And at any time you might be robbed by the other rats but if that happens then you are lucky. Because at least they didn't kill. Oh you because at least they aren't the cat. He drops his things at home and makes up a story for his mother about how school went that day. Josh was brother gives him a look that suggests he shouldn't make the same excuses in that direction or ask for an alibi if he needs to lie. The questions questions continue. But he dodges them and as soon back outside dress now and the more sensible clothe he was supposed to wear to school simple dress slacks. The Nice white button up shirt. His mother had spent a considerable amount of money on. He walks and things about his money the money in the bag he was going to use to buy some of the drugs. He's heard people talking about on the street. He doesn't really care to do them. Wants to have them on hand to talk about or pass South the real criminals downtown in his mind he thinks of himself as a powerful warlord. The head of a tribe of wise men and killers who all look up to him him he tells nobody about stream this delusion because it's so far from the truth it's terribly embarrassing it stuff. He's made up up listening to old wives tales and scary stories from the Bush about Cannibal tribes gaining magic powers eating other people and men rising to great ranks through bloodletting. Life is so boring. He thinks aloud walking around in the fields near his home climbing coming to the top of a large rock sitting beside the muddy remnants of a stream brown stocks of grass moves gently beneath the wind. He can barely feel. There is no one here but him so he talks allowed in my tribe. There would be a great fight amongst all the boys and the winner would be the best respected we would commit sacrifice to our great God and Young Bay. Oa who gives us the power to control everybody and and being visible and and bulletproof and knife-proof the boy puts his arms out wide and laughs at the sky. Ah He almost doesn't hear the echoing laugh beneath him but he does. He looks down into the mud at the base of the Rock and sees a boy laying there. The mark is up past his ears almost to his cheeks for a long moment Joshua thinks he's dead but then the boy smiles at him. His teeth are like chips of marble. Not quite white shot through with swirls of color but but his eyes are the most arresting feature flatly black in reflective and open all the way to the socket so that the eyeballs themselves are like glossy the eight balls without a number on the side Joshua Falls off the rock rolling in the dust and then scrambling to his feet. He slowly approaches. The other other side of the Rock. Grabbing chunk of Sun bleached wood off the ground. The boy in the mud is waiting for him on the other side still smiling though. His eyes focused blankly on the sky. For so that's how it seems. What are you GonNa do with that? Stick the boy asks. The voice is coloured info concern and truth. He seems on the verge of laughter Joshua Pokes the boy with his stick and the body shifts slightly early in the mud but doesn't move otherwise it seems normal enough though. The skin is somehow darker a human skin should be more like the flesh of rotten fruit and the deep healthy Brown of his and anybody else. He knew the boys only clothing is a mud-caked rag wrapping around around his feet that keeps them both bound together in the mud. It has dried to a pale light brown where the skin has touched it. Are you a God. Joshua asks or devil something like that. The boy in the mud says the slow movement of his jaw with the words. Ads Is all the movement has body allows itself Joshua can feel his heart throwing wildly in his chest is her name on Bay. Away Joshua asks no the boy in the mud says he chuckled. That your own made up. Thing mm-hmm Kerr her. It clears his throat a sound like a shoe being sucked off a foot and a swamp trump. I have no name I just am. What are you Joshua asks? Nothing the boy in the mud had says and now it's is its head tilt slowly toward Joshua but only a bit just like you. What can I give you Joshua asks? I want power. You are a demon something like yes but can I trade for power. What you have the boy in the mud says nothing Joshua replies without expecting to then? That's what I want. He laughs this time. It is a sour sound Joshua steps closer robbing his fingers more tightly around the stick. People take things from me. Joshua says people don't respect me they don't fear me me. They ask me things and a half to answer. They tell me to do things and I do them. I want that sort of power. I want to take back with spine more than go do that. The boy in the mud says you don't need my permission. chuckles a bit more loudly at this time. And you have everything you need to do what you want to do. But you should take a page lead in my book and learn to just lay around a bit things a simpler that way. It's cool out here in the mud. You Know Bill. Joshua looks at the thick hunk of wood and his hand Sun bleached and dragon and lumpy. It isn't a sort of thing you might make lumber from or even whittled down into a more useful tool just heavy and has a good grip on one end. Joshua looks back at the boy in the mud. One more time seeing the faint outlines of his reflections in the glittering black eyeball then he turns and heads for town Uh He stands for a moment outside the abandoned building where Momo in his crew had their little Ohio. It's not well hidden and the light from the barrel fire. They've lit for the night shines out onto the street. It's a bad part of town. And Joshua looks ridiculous a standing outside this gang hideout at his school. Close the boys inside probably have guns and knives and they see lingering out here the beat him within an inch of his life certainly they'd ruin his school close. It looks down at his articles of clothing now slightly dusty. But I'll still in fairly good condition better at at least than his purple suit the stitching and the sleeve and the badly torn earlier but he might pull the arms off and wear it like that he strips naked almost without thinking and then puts his shoes and socks back on with the same sort of numb automation. Then he is breathing heavily controlled. It could feel sweat breaking in his forehead. His body is like switch grass in the dark knight wavering in the firelight flickering out of the first floor windows then he's moving. He bursts through the front door which is simple piece of plywood stuck up with two penny nails salvaged from God knows what it slams to the ground and the boys around the barrel fire look at them their faces a Larry and frightened and childish and Bright Light. Momo is in the center of a naked woman's head between his legs and a black machine pistol in his hand Joshua screams his name the fuck most shouts. He pushes the girl off. She screams to when the machine pistol barks. This is split tongues of plaster off the door. Frame walking its way up to ceiling to shower josh dust. The other boys transfixed horrified mo-mo gets the pistol back ten on target pointing at Joshua's face. There is a second of flat terror and Momo's is when the trick is nothing makes no sound at all and the lump of wood takes him. In the temple he falls over the barrel fire scattering Ashen flame enrolling hunks of Palate Block into the room. The naked girl is screaming with the hands covering their hand. The boys are silent. Momo's arm breaks into the way to the first blow forearm snapping just in front of the elbow. He is screaming in earnest now too but only for a short while Josh was next strike hits. The broken arm pushes a Shard of bone. Through Momo's skin is crew club continues past and glances off moments for hit. The hit leaves a small debt. And Momo's eyes go. Glassy is arms extend fully over his head locking into place in a conscious effort to block the next blow. It doesn't work. Joshua hits him again. Crushing the front of his skull into a concave shaped it suits a pressurized jet. A blood at a Momo's knows his job begins clattering along with the rest of his body. His bows void in a stream of urine hits the fire causing it to his. The Joshua hits him again and again and again. He is covered in blood when he finishes is wide ride and white rimmed in the fire. The boys and the couches around him are silent and horrified. They do nothing say nothing. He looks at the naked girl. And she she crumbles into a ball whispering prayer under breath the wall and the ceiling behind this madman or punch full of bullet holes most still releasing dust that settles grey dark into the blood covering his shoulder's the smoke reasons body money Joshua says the other boys hurry to find it sad little little plastic bag in the pile of loot. They've lumped in the corner. He looks dangles the bag in front of his eyes and then drops in the lap of the nearest boy more. He says all of them pull bills when their pockets and place them in the bag handing it back. He nods and then grabs the naked woman by the wrist dragging ear to her feet with the same hand holding the bag of money. She begins to scream at struggled buddy whispers or ears he falls silent. Then Joshua drags her outside. Gather up his school close. It takes her away into the night. You think you are mortal Joshua to assist the boys. His Voice Boise is taken from their homes and families or whom he found already homeless and orphan on on the streets some he trusts but most he does not. It matters little because they don't matter they they are not people they are his arms and his legs and his hands he is there. Will there everything everything but I show you. I tell you you are not he continues. He drags one boy may be eleven out out of the crowd and stands him tall before the others. You tell them how you dealt with the soldiers these grown men. These rebels have sent against us us against our true leader. Shoot them. The boy says he hangs from Joshua's hand like a rag doll but his is is our sharp and intense. His face is a man's face. Do the shoe Joshua asks. Nobody leakage. The boy whispers. I am like the devil. Like the devil Joshua screams the boys erupt in shouting some jump to their feet and dance like maniacs waving assault rifles over their heads at the pre dawn sky. And who gives you this power. Who Do you feel in your heart when you kill you? General Butt Naked. The boy says though his words are soft soft they are like gasoline on the fire of the crowd. You go into battle naked my boys because this is proof you are not afraid because you know my power is on you. My power is the greatest at it is in every one of you you're naked. Hey could bodies are stronger than Arbor. If you believe in me then you cannot die. They erupt in screaming their shadows mingling in a mad dance on the side of the building. They have camped by in the morning. Many of them will die during the push on the city. The children of the city will refill the ranks. And so the cycle will continue and Joshua bligh general neural butt. Naked will grow stronger. There's only one thing that gives him pause in the shadows of the fire dancing so like water is a boy he lays submerged in the brick of the wall. as though the stuff is mud. His skin is dark and wet like rotten fruit and his eyes are wide and black and glassy like a spider's when their gazes meet the boy's mouth splits wide in a smile showing a hundred small small clean teeth and Joshua bligh smiles back Uh Monster is an incongruity production. If you've enjoyed this experience please subscribe and leave a positive review. Please support our sponsors. You can find out more by searching for monster podcast on facebook twitter and instagram or visit us at monster. Zero PODCAST DOT COM. The show was written and hosted by Jack Luna Tyler Bell and Mike and Sound Design by Jonathan McMichael and Robert reveille original score by Leon. Rogers art by Jake Peres Executive Producer Mike Day.

Joshua Momo Joshua Bligh Momo facebook Joshua Falls John Elway Josh Truth and Reconciliation Counc A. B. Thomas Karnal BBC Africa Jessica Biel Liberia Zor bly Mayo. custodes
Return to Masculinity | ELLIOTT HULSE

Order of Man: Protect | Provide | Preside

59:43 min | 1 year ago

Return to Masculinity | ELLIOTT HULSE

"With regards to being a man, it seems to me that society has watered down and diluted the definition of masculinity. And although we may not consciously realize it the shift from capable man. Strong bold courageous proficient to something else entirely. Has impacted the way we show up in our lives today. I'm joined by the one and only Elliott holes to talk about that societal shift, and how it has influenced our thoughts and actions, we talk about why boys and men need to be initiated the importance of the patriarchy, how hierarchies serve men affectively and why we need to return to masculinity man of action live life to the fullest, embrace, your fears. Boldly charge your own path. When like knock you down to get back up. One more time every time you were not easily deterred beating rugged zillion strong. This is your life. This is we are this is who you will become at the end of the day. And after all is said and done you can call yourself a man. Gentlemen. What is going on today? My name is Ryan McLaren IMD host and the founder of this podcast and the movement that is order of man. I want to welcome you today. Whether you're listening in for the first time or you've been with us for just over four years. Now, this is a place where we have conversations critical conversations with regards to what it means to be a man in how we can more fully show up as fathers, husbands business owners, community leaders coaches, teachers in every other area and facet of life that we're showing up as to that end. We're having these powerful conversations with my guest today Elliott host, but we've had other men on the show high-achieving meant successful men like Jaakko willing. Grant Cardona Andy for Cilla, Tim Kennedy, David Goggin Dogan's, and the list just goes on and on with regards to who we've had on the show. We also have a ask me anything show, which is released tomorrow every Wednesday where Kip Sorenson my co host an I field questions from our exclusive brotherhood, the iron council and also. Oh from our Facebook group, which by the way, if you're not on the Facebook group. I would definitely encourage you to get there. We've got over fifty five thousand men in the group, and you can find that at Facebook dot com slash groups slash order of man. And also we've got our Friday field notes, which is just me and some ramblings and thoughts from throughout the week. So we've got a lot. And I hope that you subscribe. If you haven't already and also, please leave us a rating and review because that goes a long way in promoting the work that we're doing here, and of course, gaining traction and visibility for this critical mission of reclaiming masculinity in a society that seems to be dismissing it a little bit. Maybe not even a little bit. Maybe a lot bit. It's my job to reclaim that idea of traditional masculinity and help you as men step more fully into it. So with that said, we'll get into the conversation here in just a minute. I do have two very quick announcements. Actually, we'll just do one announcement. Let's do one announcement right now do another one a little bit later. I want to introduce my friends and show sponsors let you guys are familiar with them. Mm because you've been listening to the podcast for a certain amount of time by now, but its origin origin main. This is a jujitsu company and also lifestyle apparel out of Maine hundred percent made in America. Geeze rash guards lifestyle apparel, most comfortable, hoodies that you probably ever wear and they're also coming out with a denim line. And a boot line, and I was told I was told that I'm on the top five list to get a brand new pair boots from origin, which I'm excited to get my my feet into. But the other thing that you guys have been really impressed with that. They offer is their partnership with Jaakko, and they're doing a jock owes mulk joint warfare super krill, the pre workout which is called discipline got a whole lineup over there. So you definitely need to check it out. You can go to origin main. As a mistake main. So its origin main dot com and use the code order or D E R at checkout in you get a discount on the jujitsu gear lifestyle apparel. And then jockey. Owes lineup. All right, again, origin main dot com. Use the code order at checkout. That is all that's all. I have for announcements. Now, let's get into the conversation. I've been really really looking forward to this one actually probably for years, and we finally made it happened. I am joined today by a man that a lot of you know, his name is Elliott holes, and I've been following Elliott for some time now, but after dozens and dozens of request to get him on this podcast. I reached out and I made it happen. He's a strength and conditioning coach and built up much of his reputation by teaching other people how to develop physical strength, but his idea of strength goes so much deeper than that and covers not only the physical, but mental and emotional components. Well, but lately he's been talking a lot about the demise of masculinity. And it seems like our thoughts, and ideas are very much in alignment, and how we as men can reclaim and become more masculine and how it would serve us well to do it. I knew this one would be interesting and unique to what we've done in the past. And I think you're really going to. Joy this conversation and get a lot from it which based on how it went. I think will be one of many more conversations Sobat guys relax get an Pat out if you need to and enjoy my conversation with Elliot. Elliott. What's going on, man? Thanks for joining me on the order of man podcast. Thank you for having me riot. I think this has been just destined to happen. It's been a long time in the works. Whether we knew it or not, absolutely I agree. And I told you this as well as that as I let the guys know on Instagram that I was going to have you on the show, and we're going to have a conversation. The guys were excited. I got a lot of good feedback. I think what you're doing is a good thing, man. I'm excited to have this conversation and really hash out. This idea of what it means to be a man in in modern times. Yeah, it's super important. I'm glad to be alive at this time where we get to do this work restoration work. Really? Yeah. That's a great way of putting in fact, that's a word that we use as well. As really restoring what it means to be a man in a society that seems to be dismissing it, more and more. Would you agree with that? Oh, yeah. Under your message has seemed to maybe shift a little bit or just be refined a little bit more. I think over the past little while from mostly strength to now embracing this holistic idea of masculinity, and even within fitness, you know, you've gone from body. Building too. I think what looks like and sounds like an entirely new approach to that. Why the shifts with these things if you notice I started my first to channel in two thousand seven so I came out on YouTube. I came out. And of course, my focus was on strength and fitness because it's my career. I'm a strength coach. I played football. I always into fitness. My uncle was a personal trainer before was thing. So it's what I did. It's my ministry in the world. But there was always a lot more brewing underneath I've always been a deeply spiritual and religious, man. I started reading Ralph WALDO Emerson and the bible and poetry and all this louts. I was introduced allowed. So when I was like in high school, but I didn't bring them to the world's as my insertion point. If you would say Mike career, like I say, the thing that I did in the world with teach men how to be strong, and that's physical. I in two thousand and thirteen when my channel was just starting to get some. Action starting to grow really rapidly. I begin a second channel second channel. I call. It Elliott said what? Because I gave myself permission to talk about all of the other things that really were the undercurrent for the things I spoke about in fitness. And if you notice even my fitness the way, I would answer questions, which was part of my popularity was I never answered questions straightforward when it came to lifting or fitness. I always took like a philosophical bend on it. I like when you said the were refine because I've always been this way. But just in these last few years, I've really sharpened that sword of dealing with men in particular, but not just mentoring to the bodies of men, but to the souls of men, and I knew for a very long time that that's really what I've been put here for to make men strong. Yes. Physically, but also metaphysically why do you think the shift now does this come with a level of confidence on your part? Does it come with something that you see in society because you could have started from the beginning with this? So why make I don't want to say pivot, but refining this way of communicating and talking about things on a deeper level rather than just physical strength. What's with the timing? I guess I would say well because I had a lot of wounds to heal before I went into this phase of my minister lifting came supernatural. I was born strong. And so for me to put myself out in the world as a strong man and teach people how to be strong. It's like I already did that maybe in a previous lifetime very easy for me to be a warrior, but this path of the priests that I'm also called to there were some things inside that I needed to resolve. I I needed to be the. Strong man on the inside, and I had some weaknesses that needed to be exposed to myself, and then dealt with before I was prepared to go full on in the direction, I'm going now, why commend you for that. First of all because I think there's too many people out there who pretend that there's something they're not what type of work. Do you feel like you needed to do to expose your own weaknesses and really explore that path? I spoke exactly to this young man that hired me for coaching yesterday. And quite frankly, I had to deal with my inner beta that feminizing week six sad, boy, that's traumatized and confused on the inside again, you know, to show someone how to lift when you know, how to lift is pretty cool, but to lift someone else's soul up my soul needed to be lifted. I because I knew that this was a part of my path. And I knew that healing was essential for this part of my path when I reached the. The height of my popularity in YouTube as strowman I was called to go inward, and I stopped making YouTube videos, people that I was crazy guy reach a million subscribers and stop when I came on for a mere two different reasons. I like to say the body is the mind, and so what is reflected in the physical is what's happening in the metaphysical. And so did having a lot of physical injuries. But it also gave me the opportunity to step away and to go into a catalysis of sorts go into the tunnel where can begin working on those things. How did you recognize that? There was this the term you used was intere- beta because I think a lot of the times we put ourselves into these boxes, and we don't even really realize that we're acting or behaving a certain way. And we also don't realize that there's an alternate way to act that might actually serve us better. How did you come to that realization? I guess I would say that. I was stunted in growth in this lifetime in. Relationship to women to the feminine. It's interesting because I married my high school girlfriend, basically the first woman I had sex with. Yeah. That was it. Yeah. Cover the barbell, and I started having sex at the same time. So as far as girls were concerned for me. I was done right. I didn't learn anything else about them. I wasn't. It was like, okay, I've got my girlfriend. So I'm having sex. I was grateful because I was able to excel in my business, and in my career, and with my body and all the things that I love when they didn't dissipate my energy trying to meet women in busted nuts all over the place. So it was an advantage. But at the same time to be a mentor to men means you've got to have the empathy and the knowledge to deal with them in the type of pains that they're going to experience, and I didn't have those experiences Bermuda, different reasons. But they're just the mere fact was I didn't deal with inter sexual dynamics. And so I never needed to confront. My inner beta in that way, I had to heal. A lot of things that was one that was super important for me on the surface. Meaning like actually be able to minister speak to men in that way, this past year has been the toughest for me because I had the confronts a lot of that stuff since April of last year to now, but has also been the most enlightening, and this is where I've found you started looking at what are men talking about? And I discovered the mantle sphere. I didn't know this existed I discovered red pill and Rollo Tomasi book rational mail, all these things just like added to me at the last moment to arm me with okay, exactly the language and the tools, I need to now bring my experience in the value thereof because got quite a bit of value when it comes to women, but not in the same way that men are hankering needing it in his moment. Yeah. That's a great point. I think there is a lot of desperation that comes across in a lot of men. I definitely want to address that the red. Pill. Rollo McDowell will get to all that stuff. One of the things that I thought about is. You were talking about marrying your high school sweetheart is did you feel like there was a sense of complacency in that you didn't have to pursue women? Or there wasn't anything from a sexual pursuit that was driving. You to excel do you feel like that at all or or something else entirely? It was a lot of things you put it. Well, when you said complacency when it comes to sex, it's like an inch that needs to be scratched and I scratch my age. She's a great woman. And that's why she's my wife to this day. But that it was easily scratched I came complacent, but also to and this was exposed to me in different ways in my life. And then I had to confront when it related to women. I was afraid of rejection. I didn't like rejection I don't like being told. No, I don't like being told I can. So when it came to women. It was like I must have all kinds of courage for all kinds of other things that has done great things in my life. But I never had to confront have. You would say version to or rejection in terms of women, and it I suffered as a result of it in other areas. How do you deal with that? Because I can't imagine that you just said, well, I'm gonna go step out on my wife and sleep around. And and ask a bunch of women on dates and expose myself to this fear. How do you begin to address that in a an appropriate way? I guess you'd say well number one, I would say that that colored the essence of my catabolism, tablets or human process, but really it began with confronting my own inner wounded feminine as a union would say, my Unimar, and that took on a lot of different weird. I say weird. But, you know, nothing's off limits when it comes to the soul a lot of weird things that I had to confront than do and see about. Myself as it related to the relationship. I had with my own inner lover and during this phase, I did all kinds of strange things like I meant. I I didn't smoke weed in high school in college. What I came into this phase. I ended up smoking weed a lot of it and doing yoga, I was a professional strongman. I am smoking Rian do yoga giving me. I was a pro Stroman like tough guy to the tea, and I could all that became a vegetarian started smoking weed and doing yoga, I mean feminine as fuck. I can see in retrospect, I had the wherewithal at the time to give myself space to do that. I was really healing parts of my inner wounded feminine than needed to be dealt with. And that was in depth of the water as I started coming to the surface. I began to realize my inappropriate relationship to women, and I'm not talking about sex wife, I'm committed to my wife, but I have three daughters. I have a mother we deal with women out in the world in a in these very strange times. And I began to realize that I had an inappropriate relationship to women the way that looks is how most men are taught to be a towards women in think of women when I came across red pill. I discovered how wrong it was how backwards. It was I had needed to repent. So how would you describe your relationship? Two women prior to some of these changes that you've implemented in your life. Tell us one that all men can relate to most men can relate to and it begins with the inappropriate relationship to mommy that we have in the west. There is an inappropriate continuation of the relationship with mother beyond the age of teenage adolescence. Are you talking about continuing that relationship with your mother or are you talking about trying to make your wife, your new mother? Well, that's a great point. I love that question. Because that's what a lot of us. Do we end up projecting Armani issues on our wise, or I saw myself doing a whole lot of it that a big part of the reason why most men can't have healthy relationships with women because of the inappropriate bond with their mother that's still there. Whether you hate your mom or your super mama's boy in mama tells you what to do even though you're forty years old. They're all cultures that retained a process which I am committed to bringing back and that I am bringing. I'm back. It's a part of my ministry. Here is the rights of passage initiation for men into different phases of their life. Particularly going from boyhood to manhood and a critical. I would say the foundational aspects of the rights of passage of masculinity of being a man is what Robert bly describes in iron John as moving away from the world of the mother and atonement with the father. It's more than just an idea. It has to take on a drama. It has to be acted out symbolically, otherwise it doesn't carry any weight and elders and the men and the patriarchs aren't doing it. We ended up doing it in a pseudo way as teenagers and stuff in a digitally on healthy, and it doesn't really create that separation. But what that would typically look like is, you know, boy starts acting like a man starts feeling himself. Parents tribe elders. Recognize. Okay. It's time women and men. Not just the men, but the women understood, okay, it's time to cut the apron strings, and so they would enact a drama where the men would come in with masks and shrimp, the boy away from his mother and instantly. That would reveal his inner beta mama's boy because he's going to start kicking and screaming even though he's fourteen inch its own, no. Writes men are taking me away would act along in a drama, but it was critical for him to go through that pain. Just like a birthing pain to be cut away from his mother and being taken out of the society for a time. He needs to be set apart for a time almost like a boot camp. You can't be in society. Can't be with your, mommy. She can't know where you are right now, and you can't have contact with her while this process is going on. And so in that separation from other where I could stop there. But it been create space for atonement with the world of the father, which is a whole nother story. Well, I'm actually interested in exploring that because you've talked about your desire and need to repent. You're talking about the atonement to father so walk me through that a little bit. I imagine that has a lot to do with transitioning into a man to recognize the strength that men. Who've gone before possess and then striving to be like that to some degree. Yeah. I mean, you nailed it. It shows up in a myriad of different ways. There are a few elements. That are always present number one. Is that is ical separation is that the drama that you're referring to the drama. Yeah. But the getting away from meeting like you gotta get outta here. Like the physical severing of that tie. Yeah. You can't be meter your mom. You can't call her and tell her you're all right. Yeah. I mean that just becomes a crutch at that point. Right, right. You gotta get this kid out of here. Okay. And so another part of that is austerity. There was always some form of physical pain so fasting which I think is amazing being fed is being a consumer anything that consumes as feminine the feminine is dark hole that absorbs and it consumes like vagina, so all consumption needs to be stopped. So anything comfortable, you know, your favorite. Drinks while in general, but anything that you were taking for comfort. So there's an austerity measure the comfort of mommy's. Not here you're gonna sleep on the floor. Like, for example, my younger brother had the blessing of being ritually initiated by native Americans and one of the things they had him do on this partly a vision quest was of course, he fasted, but they found a rock somewhere in the wilderness and made him sit on it just a stone. And they drew a circle around the stone and told him you cannot move from this stone EMA stay here it stay there for three days. So talking about austerity, there's an austerity. There's a challenge you need to get uncomfortable for a moment. What is the ultimate of Jek give like if somebody's working towards this? And we can talk about what that might look like for a grown, man. But what is the ultimate objective of engaging in this type of activity or initiation ritual? We've got to die to your. Your old self? It's a humbling process. You know, the word humble also the word accumulation. And so it's the death of an ego. You thought you were this you think you're so fucking tough. You think you belong, but guess what? No. Can you do this? And so it's called the right of passage because if you can handle this who can't suffer this austerity. Well, the you don't get to come back as a man, you just that's it you either stay out here or you. You're a shame to yourself into your tribe. You got to go through this death process, and the men would create an opportunity for him to die to his ego through this pain. But with that death is a opportunity and only then is there an opportunity for a rebirth. A new meaning for yourself, a new identity for yourself and a new path for your life. When you return to your mother or to the civilization. I talked about return to the father. Or atonement with the father? Well, of course, it's atonement with the physical father. It's the men the men in the tribe. There needs to be a level of trust and understanding for survival and premiered of reasons, but the men needed to come together as men and were different than women. And here's why and it's that why and the how that was important and one of the things with the father would instill in the boy is the sense of belonging to a long lineage of fathers. It's so befitting in the movie Lion King when the young lion. Cub is in the wilderness, so symbolic he's lost his father. But the elder clients in the old monkey and brings them up to the mountain top points to the sky and says, look you've got a responsibility here kid, and you're not alone. You owe it to yourself to try. But look, you know, it to all of the fathers that came before you your father, your grandfather, your great, great grandfather. And it's. Oh, funny, because you know, these are spiritual ideas, those fathers are long gone. They our ancestors and all that resides. All that's left is there pattern, which is where the word paternity comes from. You are a physical expression of that eternal pattern or father paternity. So there is a deep sense of belonging, a deep sense of meaning and a renewed sense of responsibility. Oftentimes with a new name they would come back with a new look in oh sometimes scar or tattoo. You're no longer even recognizable or recognized as that childish version of yourself, your new and you not only come with your newness. Would you bring the strength of the fathers? I mean, this is really powerful like a geek out on this stuff all day long. I'm sure you could as well. I also think about the patriarch which has that root word pattern, right? This seems to be shifting as well culturally is that that is somehow inherently bad or wrong. But I think men without the patriarchy without the fathers, and the grandfathers and the men who have gone before we won't know, what kind of men to pattern, and we're left with this masculine energy that we frankly just don't know how to harness and then it ends up manifesting itself in destructive ways rather than constructive ways. Which is what our fathers should be teaching us. Yes. That's where we are today. So how does a guy who maybe never had either a formal right of passage or ritual like you're talking about or even informal to some degree because I think about competitive sports has a sense of ritual in patterns and rites of passages. I think about the military also has things that are very very similar. How does a man who hasn't experienced any of that? Now who might be forty forty five fifty old begin to create some of that for himself in a way. And then even how does he pass that onto his two sons, very good? Question. And it's it's a shame that with the secularization of the western world in our rejection of ritual sacred space in Sarah, Mony, we threw out religion. And we throughout these rites of passage with all of our cleverness and scientific nece these things that our ancestors. Understood these rituals at our ancestors understood were super necessary for civilization just got thrown away and turned into a pseudo initiation. So of course, you know, military or a fraternity drinking buddies shows up in gangs, it shows up with these ridiculous affiliations with sports teams or override intimation with politics. Inappropriate relationship to what I'm gonna call beta religion. I'm not saying all Christianity. But a lot of what we see in the west is a watered-down feminizing bay. Beta version of the original church will I definitely think that's why we see enrollment numbers for men declining in religious institutions is because it is overly feminized. And frankly, no man wants to be preached at he wants to engage in something that's meaningful and significant end to your point earlier has an element of suffering and pain involved as well. Amazing. No, it's fascinating recently. I've been really interested in orthodox Christianity and eastern orthodox is the original charts instance, where the original followers of Christ came together in order to perpetuate his message. And there's is a religion from what I understand that. There's is a religion that is not separate from the body to be a religious man is to endure austerity. I mean, they fast a lot right now. It's lent. No, people do all kinds of BS relent. I gave up soda for less. Congratulations. Something you should have been consuming. Anyways. Right. I don't get it. Well, you know, how about like I just finished a ten day water fast. They would just stop eating, and then they would spend those all their days praying. So there is this sense of stripping one's ego. Self down and committing oneself to physical prayer physical prayer is fascinating. You know? So fascinated to read this in a book, but I just read this this morning, anyway, let me see prayer so much as a metaphysical thing you sit there, and you think about God. Or we see oftentimes he's really eloquent guys who get up and they love to show their eloquence through how great they pray and everybody thinks oh how cool what they do. Well, the way our ancestors would prey or Christian antithesis would prey is you get down on your knees. First of all, there's no prayer unless you are physically bended knee. And if you look at the Muslims, they do this great. They get down and they put their head on the ground. It is a physical prayer. You've got to feel the prayer. That's masculine prayer. Meaning is very embodied. It's doing warrior quality, very masculine is about doing something. So was a doing spirituality. Can I give another perspective on that? And I'd be really interested in in your thoughts here because you say that it's masculine and yet I think in a lot of people would look at this from the outside, and I'm not saying if they knew it intimately, but from the outside would look at the act of submitting yourself to a higher authority is not masculine at all how would you respond to that? It is the most masculine thing. One of the things that very different between men and women is that I said this the other day on a post and people didn't understand it. It's a concept but women work in circles, the circle is almost like a vagina is a circle and women have sewing circles men work in lines. We work in a like if you think about the penis of the phallic symbol or even like the many phallic symbols in our country like the national monument. It's hierarchy there's a totem pole. It's there's below. And then there's above and it has to be that way in order for us because as men we are clean slate and a wire a pattern, we require a mentor. We require something to look up to because if we're looking down or we're looking left, and right, we're looking at the sensual world or looking at the Maya in it's interesting. The cross is a symbol that represents the masculine feminine in that the vertical is the connection between the earthly sell the lowly self the down sell the heavy self and the light sell the enlightened self the God's self the patterns self. So that's movement. Upwards is masculine sound funny. Saying these things, but like the penis lose upwards it Jackie rates. Upwards men are we work in hierarchies women or that lateral line is about the lateral world. We live in we live in a flat. And I'm gonna say we live in a flat world flat earth. Although maybe we do man we may have to have an entirely different conversation. We go down that that. You know, what's indicative of the flatness of the world that we live in that sets men apart is that most animals or quadrupeds their spines are aligned with the urban only man those vertical. And so earth has always been associated with feminity. You know, I like to say that because pattern is paternity will matter is maternity. So the world of matter, which the Hindus would call the Maya is the lateral world. And so two F knowledge. A higher power is to acknowledge your masculinity. Women don't create religion, there's not a single religion. That was created by woman because their religion is earth women are attracted to things like Wicca and paganism because it's earthbound it's earthly sensual, it's intuitive. But not men are religions be Abraham ACC or Hindu or Taoist are. Upward. We looked to the heavens. We look to the skies in the cosmos in the pattern. But wouldn't you say that women also have these aspirational goals and Embiid, and if so is that then them tapping into their masculinity because we all possess varying degrees of energy, whether it's masculine or feminine, right? Yes. Absolutely. It's so interesting because bowing down is a physical leveling of oneself, which is we could say feminine. But as very spiritual gesture to it, so you are doing feminine thing. But it's a spiritual gesture and in the same way it can go by versa. So yes, women have a as Neil. You name would say inner unim- another way that oh, you mean would say is that the inside every man is a woman inside every woman is a man we're different as different can be on the physical plane, but when you rise above into the metaphysical were all one thing to live. In three d is live in separation, and we can't transcend separation as long as we have flesh. So this whole idea that men and women are the same stupid when you live in a body. But when you transcend, this is why a lot of you'll see depictions of Jesus where he almost looks feminine, and the Hindus do this really, well, you know, you look at like Krishna on Sheva a lot of these guys. They look like women in the spiritual world, we transcend, the penis and vagina. So what do you feel then is the danger in attempting to make men and women the same? And I think there's a very clear agenda to make that a reality. We live in a physical world that is guided by metaphysical truths, right? And to walk in physical truth is to honor metaphysical truth and physical truth. Can't be transcended. Just because it's a good idea. So for example, you. You could say that you're a spiritual being and a lot of people take it to the degree though. I'm spiritual being, but if I take a sledgehammer to your foot, you're gonna fucking cry. No doubt, we are spiritual. Which means we're light. And being light means that whereas light is air light travels sue air. Don't try to jump out of a building your transcending physical laws you live here, dude. And so as long as we live here, and I got a penis. And you got a giant. I'm a man, and I live as a man behave as a man I operate as a man, I think like a man, and you're woo-man. Men. Let me just hit the pause button real quick. It has been said that the only constant is change. And if you're anything like me change is not easy for, you know, even if we know it'll be good for us. It seems that most men resist change. But if it's inevitable in a lot of ways constructive in our lives. We need understand how to deal with it and how to actually embrace it in our lives. Then that's why inside of our exclusive brotherhood the iron council. We're talking all about change and how to harness it for a force of good in our lives. And in the lives of those. We have a responsibility for we're going to be breaking it down weekly with understanding the nature of our relationship with change. How to take action when we are faced with an evolving set of circumstances. And how to affectively lead the people that we care about through that change. So if you're ready to learn how to embrace change in your life and have some powerful discussions about it and be challenged take deliberate and intentional action towards growing and evolving. Then I. Fight you to band with us inside of our brotherhood. The iron council if you had to order of man dot com slash iron council. You can learn more and lock in your spot in your seat at the table. Again. Order men dot com slash iron council. Do that after the show for now? Let me get back to the conversation with Elliot. It is fascinating to me that both men and women attempt to change reality. When if they just step more fully into what reality was as opposed to trying to change it. I think they'd find some real power in stepping fully into what it means to be a man and conversely stepping fully into what it means to be a woman is just more powerful way to operate. It's it's the natural state. I believe it's the only place that's where our power resides. And that's why there's this evil agenda to destroy it this to destroy our power. The core of our physical power is sexual and we're clearly living at the end times the pendulum has swung as far as it possibly can. Because a we are trying to say we are. But there's an agenda to earth up. God's power on this planet by corrupting the sexes. It's the fundamental basic building blocks of God's kingdom on earth. And you believe this is Satan's agenda. I believe there are evil entities at work in our physical world. Yes. And then how does it manifest itself in the physical world? And I say it to guilty of as well, we I say society or they. But I think it's important we identify who quote unquote society is in who they are. Well, it depends on who you ask, you know, there are those who they describe as the aluminum body in secret societies learned a lot about Zionism. I mean, it really depends on who you ask and what their agenda is. There's a lot of evidence pointing to various factions or groups of people some would even say that they are not actually people that they're extraterrestrials the people would use terms like reptilians and things like that. You know? So I'm not going there saying that. That's what it is. But there are. People. There are physical entities that are guided by metaphysical forces that are evil or dark in nature, and they're here, and we see them, and they're strong and their powerful they want nothing more than to destroy us and Ursa our power just like, you know, in the matrix, they use our sexual energy to fuel the agreed and their fear and their Embiid wins. And so there is a hierarchy on earth. There are those who are in power. There are those who have been disempowered I can get kind of weird a lot of these things. But it's worth looking into in considering nothing's off the table for me. Well, that's why I want to have this conversation because frankly, we've never had a conversation like this. And I knew that by having you come in and have this type of conversation. We would get a unique perspective that would at a minimum caused people to think differently about what it is that we see and how we're interacting. Yeah. And like, I said nothing. Off the table. And that's why I'm willing to explore and one of the things I've found in my exploration is this idea. We have a portion of DNA a very small portion that scientists understand how it works certain chromosomes. They're like, okay. We know how this works. And then there's something like sixty year eighty percent of it that they just don't know what it does. And they call it junk DNA. There's this concept that I've come across in. My studies that indicate that are we have been physically changed. Our DNA has been shut off parts of our ability to make contact with our higher. Intelligent have been physically thwarted. And we have been genetically modified B disempowered to be robotic to be slaves to be easily manipulated. A lot of this is coming forth in terms of our capacity to tap into our intuition through our pioneer gland. And we know for a fact that we're being. Poison and a lot of what is in our food in our environment were clearly designed with the intent to destroy our what in many religions, call your third eye. Your intuitive is so I'm talking about the physical degradation of the human species or the manipulation and degradation of the human species because we're being degraded by the foods, we eat they're spraying all kinds of shit in the sky, our waters polluted. So we're being shut down. If you imagine. A finely tuned Ferrari, or, you know, machine and you start taking out important parts of it. Or you take out some of the software that needs to operate whale dumping junk in it that machines are going to operate really well and being the open system much more than just a machine a human being we've done become susceptible to all kinds of manipulation. In very insidious ways. So as you've then explored this path, and maybe even to a degree implemented a lot of this stuff into your life in clearing up these systems, and avoiding the poisons that you're talking about and how has your life changed? What do you feel like you've accessed or opened up or how have you evolved over that period of transformation are go back as far as being a child by parents are from believes it which is in Central America. My dad, basically grew up in a jungle barefoot he had no formal education ate off the land. So I come from very pure stock in that way. Both my parents are very hardy people they're very strong that grew up with fresh air and clean water. And so coming from parents of that nature and stock an experience into America where these are very different not just physically the foods that we'd air that we breathe. But the psychosocial manipulation and conditioning that's associated by dead and go to school did not go to school. You ain't going to nobody told them. What to do? Nobody told him sit down and how to behave. My dad knows how to be who he is. And he's the most alpha man, I know by the law of the jungle by just being out there was his father and his life. No. Which is interesting. Also, you had lots of older brothers. And he grew up around like a band of boys. There was like you ever see that movie or read the book Lord of apply or the flies, man. I was just going to say that you learn pretty quickly, right? What's acceptable? He had a dad, and that is a good, man. It was a good, man. But he had twelve children in order to be able to feed his children. He worked as a logger. So he drove a truck and was never ever ever home. He come home have sex with his CPAP out a page. It'd be right. It was just the way. It was. He didn't know even added that tilles fourteen years old, but it didn't seem to be an issue because he grew up around band of boys with lots of older men, and it was okay. And whatever you needed to learn he learned to experience than he was not beta fide at all because he didn't go to a school system or there was no beta conditioning, and is mother was she was a cow. She may babies fed them and got him out of the way. So she could make another one. So there was no like deep dark weird Freudian relationship with his parents, the Oedipus complex. They didn't have that shit because it in girl with a mommy does. Outing over him and beta dad, or like, many dads that we have here so coming from that and then going into a school system. And you know, the point that I wanted to get to was that they began medicating me almost immediately. I have a lot of energy have a lot of vitality, and it was just too much for my schoolteachers to handle my mother. My parents doing the best that they thought they knew how to do coming to America wanting the best for their children. Were you born in America? Yeah. Born in America. Okay. And they put me on Ritalin on medication. You know, when you ask like, what have I done or choices? I've made in my life to purge myself of a lot of this deep conditioning. I from the very beginning. When my mother started taking me to the quote, unquote, Dr the find out. Well, is there something wrong with my son because the teachers complaining about him? They put me on medication. I grew a deep seated resentment towards the. The medical profession and to medical thority. So from a very early on in my career, I rejected all doctors and medication. In fact, like anybody wearing a white coat anybody offering that kind of like establishment advice that I became very anti-establishment. Very early honest. Started rejecting anything that smelled like establishment. Yeah, I can see why that would be the case. What would you say would have been the more appropriate response to your energy and vitality as a child, I think school contemporary, compulsory public education is inching main? What I would have liked to have done is grown up. Like my dad in the jungle. Yeah. You know? I mean, there's value in that. No doubt king of the boys. My gifts are physical vitality. And so I did really well well in phys, Ed, and I'm not regretful. I'm just you know, you're bringing up these hypothetical. So having fun with it. Here in baked believe well, and I think it's a great way to think about how we might raise our children. That's why I bring that up. Yeah. One of the things boy is known. It's a difference. We boys and girls girls. Learn by talking you can talk to a girl, and they'll learn they're receptive by co vagina. I always imagine. And I say that the sex organs tell you a lot about the character of the sexes. Now. I believe that I mean receiving and giving and everything else. I subscribe to that as well. The Jonah is passive it receives it takes in the penis is active. It must be stimulated in it moves outward. It's a doing Oregon so boys need to do stuff to learn properly school systems, and you know, motive education for boys have to be physical. They gotta be outdoors are going to be working with your hands. This makes sense. I mean, I see I've got four kids. I've got three boys and a girl, and it's not socially constructed the way they behave there. All slightly different, of course. But generally speaking, my boys are rougher their louder. They have a tendency of being more destructive my second son the other day came home with a cut above his ice. At what happened? He's like. Oh, I got hit with a rock. And I'm like, well how that happen? He's like, oh, we were having a rock fight. That'll do it. And my daughter naturally is playing house and she asked if I build her a a Dollhouse with her bed on top of it, which I did. And she wants to make the home and take the resources, right and turn that into something that that we can utilize. That's what she does. I didn't teach her that. And I didn't teach my boys to go out and have a rock fight. And yet that's what they do. Amazing. I want to pivot and shift gears. I know we're maybe bumping up against time a little bit and this has taken a different tournaments conversation. But I think it's been valuable. I just know we're going to have to have parts like b and c and we can do those down the road if you're willing to do that. But I do want to pivot and switch gears and talk about something you brought up earlier, which is the red pill movement. You didn't say McDowell. But talk about that as well. Rolo? Of course, I'd like to get your perspective on that. Where you see that fitting in maybe some of the pros if you see cons in that. And just really explore that conversation. Oh, man. I think it's amazing. I I heard of big pal along with no fat, basically year-ago. It was what a lot of this stuff came across my might screen, and it was of course, came from questions that were being asked by the young men who follow me on YouTube and look up to me. And when I looked into it. It resonated with me immediately now mind you I'm not judging the concepts by the people who practice them or promote them people have all kinds of judgments about the guys in McDowell. Which you know, I think a lot of them are great, and we all interpret information differently, right? And some of this alternately can be taken to the extreme. And I've certainly seen that I've seen elements of it that are valuable, and I've seen other elements that are quite frankly, I believe destructive, but it's all in how it's interpreted and implemented. All I needed to do is hear the term men going their own way for the green light. Or the flag to go off in my mind and say, yes, this is appropriate. This is exactly what's needed. Because it reminded me of the the fact that in order for a man. To be a man he must go his own way. He must be separate from is environment. Like, I spoke about in terms of initiation. No man will be initiated into manhood until he goes his own way. He must go his own way. And so, you know, we're approaching I like the believe is the pendulum beginning to swing back the other way. So you're gonna start seeing these kinds of movements the very first step in initiation or an individual man is for him to go as own way, he has to go his own way. And I see Meg tau as the first step in the initiation of the collective masculine to be initiated into the new patriarchy or the mature masculine by men going there away. So it's it's absolutely one hundred percent appropriate. So you bring up an interesting point because he said that's the first step. Then that alludes to the fact that there's another step to it. Because ultimately, if we just said men going their own way and. Ended at there. It'd be difficult for guys like you. And I to reconcile the fact that we're married and at times turn to our feminine partners for support or mutually beneficial relationships. So what is that second step or that next step after you, go your own way, everything in life all at about crosses a Neo people who follow me are into lifting. So I use it this way we're going to build muscle. You're gonna get huge you gotta break down. But then the obvious next part of the cycle is build up. We've got the disintegrate before we integrate life always works that way. Because it's a spiral. I said before it's feminine to go in circles will life works in circles. But it's also masculine to move forward in a spirals vote. So I see life is a spiraling forward. And so there are phases. And you'll see this in every aspect of life from you know, the anabolic and catafalque cycled to the cycles of the sun and moon of breakdown or moving away from or destruction. And then. Rebuilding. It is only natural normal natural and appropriate that once there's a disentegration a movement away from there, then is a conch lamented moving towards, but just like the spiral. It's not coming back in the same way. It is an evolving moving ascending spiral back to the woman in a long winded way that answers my question and answer questions yet we do need to move away. But then the reaction to that we moved back together. This is interesting. I never really considered it like this. But as you're talking about this and the guys who listened to the podcast or well aware of my separation nearly ten years ago with my wife, and I felt like that was in a way me going my own way and discovering for myself and my own power. How to stand on my own two feet, but I couldn't do that with her. And I couldn't do that. If my mother was around I had to do that for myself and. Now that you're speaking about this as a spiral, I'm considering my own situation. And yes, we reconciled and we came back together. But I came back a completely different man somebody who was more capable more. Sure of himself more ready and mature to be in that relationship, and eventually to be able to be to serve better right to grow together into serve her and to serve my kids. And and do it in a way that significant for everybody involves that's an interesting thought. I'd never considered it like that very cool. Well, Elliot, I know we're bumping up against time. Here man, I want to be respectful of the time that I committed to you and talked about, but I'm really interested in this idea of healing your wounded feminine. So maybe we can address that. And the idea of the inner lover is well because we're taught that we need to love others, right? As we would love ourselves. And I think what a lot of people overlook is the fact that that actually alludes to the fact that we need to love ourselves and fix ourselves. And being confident in who we are. I think most people think that's about serving other people. I think there's an element of that. But it's also about serving yourself. But I think that could be another conversation that we could really really have some powerful put together. Yeah. I agree. Well, cool. Well, hey, man as we wind down. Let me ask you a couple of additional questions and we've been dancing around the first one here for a while now. But what does it mean to be a man, I talked about the rights of passage of initiation? I think it's significant that our ancestors understood that they needed to be a a breaking down of an cleaning of the slate in order for a new pattern to emerge a man, and it may sound strange for me to say this. But I see men as a clean slate. Masculinity is opportunity and whether or not we're inscribed upon consciously unconsciously with malice or with honor. It's the mere fact that a man is potential is a clean slate. That makes him a man a woman's nature. Inscribed upon her a man's nature needs to be taught. I agree. I mean, I think that's a big part Elliott of what you're doing teaching men. I think that's obviously a big part of what we're doing here. And it's always fascinating to me. When I hear guys say things like a real man doesn't care about what another man says or doesn't need another man to tell him how to be a man, and I just think to myself that is the furthest thing from the truth. A real man needs to learn how to be a real man from another real man who has some of these things figure it out. Yeah. Very cool, man. Well, Elliot, how do we connect with you? I know you've got grounding camp coming up here in the near future. You got so many other things going on? How can the guys find out more about you and connect with you? Well as far as grounded camp was concerned. This is my attempt and we're doing it to Rian establish the initiation process, the ritual initiation process that all men go through at various stages in their life. The only thing is that if it's not honored. It often ends up looking like a crisis. Either a crisis of self when the avoid becoming a man doesn't know how does even know that it's happening or when a man's going from adulthood into middle. Adulthood were constantly being initiated life is initiating us into new phases. With each phase. There is a requirement for honoring that person during that phase. There is also a requirement for a separation for that person to have time and space in order for them to go through that process. So separate ourselves from the world, we'd go out to the wilderness. We have time away from the world. And then there's a process, and I mentioned austerity there's challenge the grounded camp, you're physically emotionally and mentally challenged. And then finally what Mercer Eliadah would describe as communitize where this is all available only in the community of other men. So what we have is a power. Powerful community of men growing stronger together in this way, and I've been doing ground in camps since two thousand sixteen why do it about three or four times a year? And this year we have one coming up in June. If anybody's interested in learning more about that and wanting to attend is grounding camp dot com. And then if you're just interested in things that I like to talk about which being a fan of Ryan's by cast here. You clearly are you'd love to subscribe to my YouTube channel Elliott holes or shrimp camp. And also my Instagram at Elliot host right on man, we'll sink it all up. I know that you, and I are very much in alignment, I think that we diverge in some ways and some places which is why I wanted to have this conversation. But I think overall our mission, and our purpose is very much in alignment and man just so excited to be able to have this conversation. I really appreciate you taking some time to to share some of this in a way that quite honestly, I didn't expect it to go. But I think it was very very powerful. And I think it's a conversation. That frankly, we just haven't had on the podcast before. So I appreciate you for for bringing that to us. Great. I appreciate you for doing the work. Did you do a man keep up awesome work? Gentlemen there. It is my conversation with the one and only Elliott Halse, I told you this one was going to be interesting. I told you it's different than we've done in the past. And I hope you enjoyed the conversation. Maybe agreed with it. Maybe agreed with some of it. Maybe you didn't agree with any of it. But either way this conversation is sure to spark some additional conversation and some additional thoughts into what it means to be a man. And I thought that was the reason we should do it is that we should open ourselves up to new ideas and insights and perspectives that we may not have considered in the past. So guys, I would encourage you to connect with Elliot connect with me on both of us are very very active on Instagram on at Ryan McLaren, you can find Elliott at Elliot Holst's connect with us there connect with us on Twitter, and wherever we're doing the social media thing, and wherever you are hunt social media, and let us know let us know what you thought about the show. Let us know what you'll be implementing in your life based on the conversation that we had we always love getting that feedback in hearing from you about what you enjoyed about the conversation. So that's at guys. That's all. I've got remember our friends and show sponsors, origin main and make sure you use the code order at checkout. Also, remember, if you're wanting to learn how to embrace change a little more effectively than had to order a man dot com slash iron council. So I guess till I've got for you today. I hope you enjoyed again the conversation today. I appreciate you being on this journey. We couldn't do without you. And it's amazing to continue to see the download numbers continue to see you guys. Connecting with me on Instagram and Twitter and everywhere else. We're doing the social media thing. It's nice to know that this movement is growing in needs to grow. It needs to expand needs to reach more men because I honestly and truly believe that the more men that we reach the better off society will be so I appreciate you doing your part by sharing by subscribing. And also by leaving a rating and review, our I guess that's all I've got for it until to Morrow for our ask me anything go out there. Take action become the man, you are meant to be. Thank listening to the order of man podcast. You ready to take charge of your life? It'd be more of the man you were meant to be. We invite you to join the order at quarter of man dot com.

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