16 Episode results for "Australian Strategic Policy Institute"
Chinas Technology-Enhanced Authoritarianism: A Conversation with Samantha Hoffman
"<music> they low everyone and welcome to the power three point. Oh podcast examining authoritarian resurgence and democratic resilience in an era globalization power three point is brought to you by the international former democratic studies the center of the national endowment for democracy. I'm your host sean shot. The colombo senior director neds international forum for democratic studies and i'm your co host chris walker vice president for studies and analysis at the endowment recording the studio in washington d._c. Recent international debate has centered on china's largest technology firms the relationships with beijing and the implications of their growing involvement in global markets concerns over hallways role have dominated the discussion a growing body of reporting and analysis suggests the broader intersection of china nine and technology is far more complex and far reaching within china chinese firms are developing surveillance systems facial and voice recognition technology social social credit systems and advanced censorship capabilities even as the government aspires to global superpower status in artificial intelligence. All of this is happening. In the absence sense of robust domestic scrutiny by independence society will at the same time china's belt and road initiative and related digital silk road project are helping disseminate these capabilities globally to shed further light on the nature of this increasingly complex web of relationships and to explain the nuances of how china's authorities may be interested misted in leveraging these new technologies. We're pleased to welcome to the power three point. Oh podcast samantha hoffman a fellow at the australian strategic policy institute you'd be for today's discussion china's technology enhanced authoritarianism. Thank you for having me so sam. Lemme kick it off by referring to <hes> you recently testified alongside chris before the house permanent select committee on intelligence at a hearing on china's digital authoritarianism so in your testimony you of noted that the chinese party state is trying to control international discourse on china and that it expects technology to enhance the sophistication of this process so i was hoping you could go into into a bit more detail on this particularly on the role in vision for technology by the chinese party state absolutely <hes> so i think it's best to start framing <hes> what this means domestically and then look at how that expense out worth technology is essentially a tool that allows the chinese communist party to enhance its existing methods for controlling and managing society the objective is to essentially allow technology to be used used as a tool that come increasingly blurs the line between the parties <hes> consensual and coercive forms of control the party in order to maintain empower also needs to expand power because the way that it sees security. It's not a concept that ends at china's borders so it's not a domestic domestic or international security. It's actually inside the party and then everything outside of it and so as china grows globally the party also needs to expand its power to protect it and so technology is a way of improving <hes> the parties ability to for instance understand its external attornal environment so that it can shape it <hes> oftentimes in the debate on highway five defer instance where nearly focused on on national security threats but the problems associated with this are a lot broader. Civil liberties is a major issue and so the one thing that's chinese communist party talks about is that it can use data collected from the projects which include things related to five g. and smart cities development to understand the local environment to help the businesses directly involved in the projects that then also to allow the party to understand its political environment and ultimately mentally shape it the way people think about china and the chinese communist party in particular well you know in your commentary just now it echos a <hes> a line that you used in your testimony which i thought was really striking so let me just read it back to you and get your reaction to this you said for the c._c._p. The border that matters most is is not the border between the p._s._e. And the world but rather the border between the party and everybody else more channels that open up between china and the outside world the more the party has to fill in <hes> and ensure those channels are controlled so can you just talk a little bit about the ways that the party does fill in these these gaps in these openings and wyatt sees this says imperative sure i'll start with wyatt sees this as imperative <hes> it has to do with the way that the chinese communist party defines national security or really better the described in the chinese context party state security and it says that at the basis of this concept is political security which is guaranteed not by ideological security and cultural security and then there are other elements that would be a lot more familiar to us military security environmental security pretty <hes> but with political security at the basis of that concept that means that the party has to prevent threats from emerging urging in order to protect its ideological space so domestically that means not only putting down on rest once it emerges that actually really creating the conditions to disincentivize any problems from ever having the opportunity to arise whether through consensual means or co course it means were necessary that extends outward because the party's ideological space doesn't stop at china's borders and threats to the party politically domestically you can emerge from the outside so it's not a concept that stops just because china's territory ns it continues outward because of protecting the party is is the objective than there is no border and internal because the party also has to control itself it has to manage <hes> <hes> help policies are implemented it has to manage corruption has the manage all these traditional issues if maintaining and expanding power the objectives and sam sam. You've ridden that oversees the c._c._p. Doesn't seek to exert control through direct coercion through cooperative versions of control. I'm wondering if if you just describe a little bit more what you mean by that short it's a bit of both cooperative is mostly focused on shaping discourse. <hes> you mentioned the beginning of the podcast and discourse has to do with shaping how people engage with china <hes> shaping the channels of communication if you're a student how you're ear engaging with china how if you're a businessman or woman how how you're engaging with with china if you are a government official <hes> if you're looking to be elected elected and you have a large overseas chinese community in your district. How are you engaging with that community. Are you engaging with a very diverse community. That isn't representative of only the party or you. Engaging with channels at the party tends to control. It's all of those things combined. There's also course of elements of this for instance. I mean this is nothing new the party harasses political opponents overseas it also is mainly focused on overseas in ethnic chinese but it also extends extends to individuals who are working on issues that are sensitive to the chinese communist party. That's why you see academic self censorship or self censorship in think-tank environments because in order to maintain access. You have to conform to what the c._c._p. Describes as normal behavior and and why in your view and maybe this is an obvious question but why is it necessary <hes> whether in the coercive or in the cooperative categories of this manipulation and control for that sort of control to be exerted in the first place what what exactly are they seeking to sideline from the discussion or prevent from ever being taken up. That's so crucial so a few look at the way. The chinese communist party describes breath. It's a threat perceptions. One of the consistent themes is is always the idea of say a color revolution type event taking in place in china and if an event like that is the type of threat that the chinese communist party perceives one. That's primary political <hes> they also see that as something that can emerge from outside at china whether it's a government or entities that are interfering that are giving a voice two political opposition to the party creating an opportunity for individuals inside and outside of china to mobilize around an idea that is different than what the party says is true or right and that can take place outside of china before it takes place inside of china and so it needs to control those spaces inside and outside of china in order to prevent that type of threat from merging because if you get to the point that the party has lost political legitimacy or ideological legitimacy or at least that it can't control that <hes> it doesn't matter whether or not a shot is fired if it's lost that to begin with then it sees itself as losing on the ultimate battle so implicit in what you said is an emphasis on on this term discourse and you've written about the concept of discourse power in the way that the chinese party stayed defines it. Can you talk a little little bit about why this concept of discourse power is relevant to the global information ecosystem and why would it be applicable to for instance international credit rating engage in sees or international technical standard setting bodies <hes> which are all places in which you've said that you know discourse power is is trying to manifest itself ruin which the c._p._a. Wants to manifest as course power the idea of discourse power or the right to speak is essentially the described by the party as a way of ensuring the effectiveness and power of its speech in order to have that the party needs to collect data uh in order to enhance its ability to influence local environments and places outside of china needs to collect data in order to understand normal political and economic risks and it sees it sees collection power as the ability to sort of collect information from all areas of the world in real time nine and then communication power as something that decides the parties ability to influence and both of those things are directly related and data collection supports that process <hes> so data collection comes from smart cities data collection comes from places like confucius institutes. It comes from the c. P. describes collecting information from back doors and <hes> also other means <hes> from infrastructure projects projects from things like hotels and telecoms companies as well as a way of improving this knowledge and it's not that the data can be effective immediately but when it technology catches up and predictive capacity improves than it has that data in order order to make it usable or when it decides that it wants to have a particular set of information or it wants to pull a string it can do that more easily than and if it didn't have this to begin with specifically the party talks about data collection from belton brute initiative projects and this is actually louis something that it already claims to be doing it takes data from these projects and sends it back to five major data centers in china and uses that to inform. This is kind of analysis so it's not just an idea. It's something that the party claims is already happening. It's interesting that this idea of discourse is not limited to what we would typically think of discourse as a telling story or part of you know the party stated objective to tell china's story better to the world but it's really about <hes> technical technical standards it's about actual sort of data collection and the nuts and bolts of communication affecting not just the story that's told but the technology through which that story flows almost exactly and the c._c._p. Is really ahead in trying to set technical standards in <hes> international bodies. He's you know not only is developing technology locally important to the c. p. but it's also setting standards internationally and also setting norms <hes> and controlling the rules for engagement and a lot of ways with china in one way of doing that is being ahead of the united states and other western in liberal democracies in this particular <hes> space an example of what this course power actually looks like you can point to the civil aviation administration of china last year <hes> sending a letter to believe it was thirty three major national carriers and they said that we need you to change the way that you talk about taiwan on your airlines website. If you don't do this then we will accuse you of serious dishonesty st for not following through with this particular order and that dishonesty will be recorded on your airlines credit record and once that's recorded and then that'll be forwarded to the chinese credit agencies and that mark will be there for also other government entities to to potentially find you for instance so the cyberspace space administration of china was specifically listed in <hes> a letter teen lines <hes> but then other laws the orleans could have been accused of violating were the surveying and mapping law or advertising law and by connecting the violation to a credit credit record. It's essentially enhancing the efficiency of the c._p._s. Existing methods for shaping how entities <music> are willing to behave and it's worth noting that the airlines weren't told the chain to china specific website they were told to change their global websites because when they tried to change just it or tried to create just a china website to respond to this demand they were actually told no and so it's not that companies are not used to being told old to talk about taiwan in a particular way. It's that with these systems using technology to enhance existing forms of control the all encompassing nature and the effectiveness is intended to improve and really what you've described <hes> just more fundamentally is is to get the edge in artificial intelligence. You need to have the data collection and curation capacity and then you need to be able to test it in order or to develop the algorithm. Ick edge and china has in many ways and unlimited ability to do this. You described it in the external donald context through and other initiatives but within its own borders ashanti alluded to at the outset there really are no checks on the way the authorities gather the data and use it. This is a question everywhere today but for open societies. There's a debate about whether or at least there should be more vigorous debate about how these sorts of efforts are undertaken in your view. Is there anything that's in view right now. That can slow down or otherwise stop the trajectory of the way in which the chinese authorities are pursuing the state of collection and artificial intelligence enterprises underway internationally that we need to be having a conversation privacy and it needs to take these issues into consideration. It's not just about the data were showing with companies. It's also how that data can be exploited by other actors and what that means on a broader security context outside of our sort of traditional narrow framing of national security risk not just espionage civil liberties domestically the party is engaged in a multi staged multi decade project to use technology you to enhance control so that started in the early nineteen nineties with e-governance projects and led to were today with the development of smart cities across is china you see in its most coercive invisible forms in xinjiang but it's also not started there and it's not limited to that region. This is taking place across china but the party is also relying on the ability of government agencies to share information. It's relying on efficiency ansi and it's not there yet so it's not that it's the chinese communist party already. Has this all encompassing form of surveillance that is one hundred percent effective but i think also if he traced back and look at where it started talking about these concepts. None of the technology existed doubt most government offices had more than a fax machine so it's it's not that it can't achieve. Its objectives insists that it's going to be it's going to take a number of years and there will be bumps along the way but the complexity doesn't mean a lack of strategy and your observation earlier about the cooperative versions of control of it reminded me of a of a fascinating conversation we recently had on the podcast with citizen labs ron debord who in january twenty nineteen journal of democracy article close sketched out a number of reasons why social media presents many problems and i see some connected themes here in the sense that we all irrespective of of where we are really enjoy the benefits of the convenience of the new technology and it seems that in the case of the chinese authorities they've have also been very adept at using the benefits and convenience of the technology as a way to fuse their ambitions of control convenience and i'm wondering if you just share your reflections on that idea yet ideally the chinese communist party achieves control through convenience and that's it's the social credit system and that smart cities also have those elements and i think sometimes this is misunderstood as if the more cooperative <hes> consensual forms of control are distinct from the course of ones but actually the completely interlinked and it's always been that way conceptually <hes> for the chinese communist it's party but technology is a tool to make that possible smart cities for instance helped to solve problems related to environmental pollution food and health safety safety you think back to the two thousands the china had a number of serious public health crises the milk powder scandal sars the also had natural actual disaster this at one earthquake in two thousand eight and so those are all things that smart cities technology and social credit system are directed also improving but there's a key difference the party frames these issues under a concept that the party calls social management and social management is ultimately about power power and protecting the party's power preferably preemptively so a system like social credit for instance and the technologies support it and this entire ecosystem really of control is also meant to replace the need for law or effective civil society and that's the key difference in china but i think also globally <hes> these are issues that we need to be thinking about. I i was looking at a case. <hes> prior testimony where turkey's leading mobile provider signed an agreement with hallway on a five jean smart cities. No i think that's just on paper for now but imagine if that actually <hes> materializes there are according to human rights watch over ten one thousand weaker refugees in turkey so if the party can also extended surveillance overseas or pull the strings when it decides at once to by providing something that offers convenience and improves the development another country then it's also expanding its power in a way that isn't visibly coercive coercive. Well just a touch on what you mentioned about smart city projects. I saw your recently involved in comprehensive mapping project with the australian elian strategic policy institute <hes> where you and your co-authors essentially mapped around seventy five smart city projects and i was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about what you found in the course of that project whether there are any key conclusions that arose from looking at all so many projects yes at the australian strategic policy institute we recently launched mapping china's tech giants and it's a website and report and the website maps the global expansion of eleven chinese tech companies while way you said t. biotech companies <hes> degi and others and we essentially just mapped where it has research corporations of where agreements was smart cities as you you mentioned <hes> have been made and it's actually <hes> we aren't stopping there. We are adding <hes>. We're continuing to add more data points <hes> so i know there's already more smart cities that we we're adding in the next couple of weeks and then next year. We're going to release a second phase adding more companies and i think it's a great tool all for researchers and journalists to <hes> to see where these cooperations exist and look into them and try to understand them a little bit more because right now. I think there is is very little understanding of what is taking place in what we've what we've mapped out. I think one of the misperceptions around chinese assistance for smart city development is that it it's only taking place on a sort of a bilateral basis between authoritarian regimes and china were it seems from the reporting that it's actually happening in a variety of political settings including democracies yep. There are smart cities projects in places like facebook germany in addition to projects such as one that was reported on <hes> earlier this year in venezuela. I think oftentimes when we're framing the issue of the export south china surveillance technologies in particular often people focus on that technology being exported to other regimes that will use it <hes> coercively coercively but what's missed is that for the c. c. p. the cooperation and coercion go hand in hand can't be separated and i don't think that liberal democracy accuracy or not we can turn off those functions if that's how it was designed and you said a short while ago that china through its engagement will seek seek to sideline civil society and rule of law in essence <hes> they tried to do that at home and i think in this era of globalization it's been hard hard for many audiences around the world where china's engaging to see how it could be the case that china through its exertion of influence beyond its it's national borders would even attempt to do something similar so just wondering to kind of recap if you could say a word about how <hes> countries and societies that are engaging with china commercially or in other ways should reframe they're thinking about the challenges opposed to independence touche's within their open societies and you just a moment ago alluded to the fact that it can be liberal democracies z's with long track records in scandinavia but it can also be <hes> countries whose <hes> institutional roots may not be as deep and as durable <hes>. What sort of reframing of understanding do we need to undergo in order to put this challenge into proper perspective. I think the main thing is really. We need to have a serious conversation about privacy in china. You know the the c._c._p._a.'s he is britain a number of draft regulations on on privacy protection but also the party says that privacy stops were the party's power begins and it says that by the the way that it defines the law the law is there to enhance the party's power ultimately and if that's the case then there is no privacy production <hes> when the party decides to insert itself that extends outward because if for instance you are a political opponent of the c. c. p. living living in germany where smart cities projects or elsewhere the party would then have another avenue for attempting to interfere our fear with that individual but it's not limited to just individuals. It's also a i think i think oftentimes when you say that in people think well. I'm not going to be affected affected. <hes> it's not going to affect me but then it's a bit of a slippery slope isn't it. I think one of the things that's come out and in some of the research that we've done is that the the issues that have customarily been seen as a off limits from the c._c._p.'s point of view taiwan. I want to bet ten and men <hes> is actually grown quite a bit and what's striking is if you look at the way in which investment agreements have been reached in in places like kenya or big technology deals in places like ecuador or similar sorts of deals with satellite communications technology analogy in places like argentina. The common pattern is that there's virtually no meaningful public discussion around the establishment of these agreements and it's usually far after the fact where civil society or policy community voices in these settings will say this doesn't look quite brighter doesn't feel quite right or we didn't really understand because it wasn't given much sunlight at the outset and so is it your sense that the scope of <hes> subject jack matter that is off limits already grown in this way i think it has but then the correction to that is to improve the way that we frame rain these issues <hes> you know to understand what the c._c. P. is doing you have to understand how it frames the issues of power and security and global governance and that would create a better understanding of how these particular projects before their agreements or even made aid could potentially have unintended consequences. I think often we might get caught up in the way the c._p._t. C._p._t. finds its core interests taiwan south tennessee but if you go back to the definition of state security long before xi jinping clearly after tannen it starts to include the c._c._p.'s concept of cultural security which is basically the c._c._p. Defines what chinese culture is not the chinese people not china china but it's a c._c._p.'s version of of chinese culture and so it has already expanded that into the way for instance researchers. Ask questions about china. If you look at a lot of research on china it's the kinds of questions people are asking can be very narrow <hes> in the way at least that we approach the research can be framed in a very narrow way and that's advantageous to the c._c._p. Immune somehow it's convinced governments around the world to separate <hes> trade relations from political relations for a very long time as if those two things can be managed somehow separately but the party itself doesn't doesn't separate those things domestically so why would it do that in international relations <hes> so yes. It's it's an incremental process. It's not it's not always a smoking gun evidence <hes> because this is <hes> shaping discourse course shaping the way people think engage with the party and the party's definition of what china is so before we wrap up our conversation. I'd like to conclude with our final segment called what we're reading where we discuss what's at the top of our respective reading lists and what we might recommend to our listeners so sam. Do you want to start off sure so. I've just started in the last <hes> week. Reading the age of surveillance capitalism by shoshana <hes> zubov and it's <hes> relief has agreed so far so i'm looking forward to finishing it and and then as a longer read a paper released earlier this month by human rights watch <hes> algorithms of repression. I my along and her team it's a fantastic agreed reverse engineering policing app that was used that that is used in xinjiang to control entire population and it shows both the limits limits and trajectory this of this technology i think and for my part <hes> i've gone back to look at richard mcgregor's the party the secret world of china's communist rulers and this book was published about a decade ago and i think in the intervening years the world has come to see the impact of the party in ways as that mcgregor <hes> really deathly described at that time i think among other things the <hes> the description of china ink and the fusion of commerce and politics that we've just been discussing here was one of his <hes> excellent insights. I'd note that he emphasized the party's conscious retreat from the private. David lives the chinese people but i think as sam hoffman and others are writing now <hes> that may be bending in another direction and might be cause for experts on. I'm trying to take a fresh look at just how technology is playing a role that read insinuating itself into <hes> chinese life more more directly and for me in line with the thirtieth anniversary of the tenement square massacre i'm reading two thousand fourteen. The people's republic of amnesia tiananmen revisited by louisa limb. Who's a scholar and co host of the terrific little red podcast on all things china. <hes> in the book limb not only reveals new details about what happened in one thousand nine but she also grapples with the legacy of an event that the c._p._a. C._p._a.'s she puts it has neither forgotten nor is at peace with she also says in a recent guardian op ed that she co authored with alario maria sala that china has systematically medically erase the evidence in memory of this violent suppression using it's increasingly high-tech apparatus of censorship and control which seems particularly relevant to our discussion today and i'd like to take this opportunity to thank him huffman again for joining us. Thank you for having me. That's all for today's episode of the power three point. Oh podcast for more on the topic topic we discussed today. We recommend reading sam. Hoffman's may twenty nineteen testimony before the u._s. House permanent select committee on intelligence. You can also download download more for publications and other projects contributed to on the website or the australian strategic policy institute for further analysis of the themes we discussed today and we'll we'll be examining and future podcast episodes. Is it our blog power three point. Oh understanding modern authoritarian influence we also invite you to join the conversation with us on facebook and twitter. You can find us using the handle at think democracy. Additional resources are available on the website at w._w._w. Oh you w dot med dot org slash ideas. If you've enjoyed today's show please rate us on itunes. Google play or whichever podcast app you use special special. Thanks to our podcast production team at the international forum producer jessica ludwig and editing and sound engineer rochelle fast. I'm chris walker. Walker was shot the colorful and sam hoffman. He hope you enjoyed this discussion on china's technology enhanced authoritarianism and invite you to tune in again entra future power three point podcasts.
Does the AN0M sting show police need more powers?
"This is an abc. Podcast was if you've been anywhere near. Tv said or tabloid newspaper. This week you looked co-ops that police in australia and overseas have just pulled off something. Beat new significance cannot be overstated. The biggest police sting in australian history australian courts. Fill up with caught up in the policing headed by the af. Hey and the. Fbi was a so-called trojan horse at secretly planted into the underbelly of global organized crime and then used to track the moves of some of the world's most notorious criminals police have made arrests in asian countries. They have foiled multiple murder plot sees thousands of kilos of drugs and cash totaling forty five million dollars. And that's just fob police the cooling at one of the largest and most sophisticated stings ever carried out and with literally tons of drugs says just in australia. It's hard to dispute that. But what makes this operation. All the more impressive is the way it happened. The ifp and the fbi in the united states along with europol in the eu. Say they worked. With a convicted narcotics trafficker in california to infiltrate an encrypted messaging platform called annum. They gained access and planted phones. Loaded with it with key figures across several global criminal networks and then for three years. They more or less setback an eavesdropped on everything. They said. i'm steven smiley. And i'm angelov wachira and today on the signal taking a closer look at operation ironside. How much damage does this thing like these do. And when the police and the prime minister use its success to call for new powers. What is it that they're asking for so the details of this international operation as still trickling out with police commissioners and politicians across australia and new zealand and in the united states and europe slowly revealing. What they've been up to and yesterday. There are new details from south australia. Where police said information they'd heard in criminal conversations over the app helped them foil to murders being plotted in adelaide. This ifp commander. Eric merrin the community of south. Australia is a safer place. Because of this operation the unknown platform has given law enforcement a window into a level of criminality that we've never seen before on the scale south. Australians should feel proud reassured that the dedicated men and women of the law enforcement agencies have stopped serious criminals from flooding streets with guns drugs and violence. So that's just one example of what police say the operation has achieved domestically. It was called operation ironside while the international name was operation trojan shield. But we wanted to find out how big a difference this will actually make taking. Could you introduce yourself for us. My name is dr teak in western dove an analyst at the australian strategic policy institute so polices saying that. They've pulled off what they're calling an unprecedented operation here on tuesday. We had the news news corp tabloids sydney melbourne brisbane adelaide everywhere. Really saying that it was the sting of the century from what we know about the local part of the operation. So far is that true. I really think it is. And that's because of first of all the scale of the arrests and the connections to transnational series organized crimes at a regional and international level beyond south east asian region. I think that it really is an unprecedented scale. And the second point is that the degree to which people have been implicated in trusted of accounting lawyers and at the board is it really is unprecedented in terms of the weaknesses that it has shown in now systems. Police sided said that they've saved three thousand three hundred sixty six kilograms of drugs. Forty five million dollars in cash. One hundred four weapons. That drugs figure. How does that compare to the scale of the illicit drug trade in estrada. Look at his a really huge figure but if we look at just the amount of methamphetamine and heroin. That is traffic into australia and used in australia annually. We can see that while it is a major policing win. It's actually pretty small. Compared to what would harp it to be in terms of the big a market and for context if we look at the most recent acc dada in f y twenty nine nine. There was just a five thousand kilograms of meth seized at the australian boorda but when compared to what we know is consumed in australia because we have a brilliant wastewater testing system. That's actually just thirty percent of narin turtle imports in that financial year. Similarly for herron. We had three hundred kilogram seized at the australian border in that area. And that's just twenty three percent of the total imports. We were imported when at what we know is consumed so this is huge but the problem is sir much big and we also know that it's growing in terms of year on year increases to what sees what's important and what's consumed. Yeah i mean you know the those figures kind of tell us what the size of the is as well as the demand. So i mean what's the long term impact of of Esteem like this. Well i think the long term impact is that there are major. Wins in terms of transitional series organized. Crime actors who are now going through the criminal justice system. It's a real testament to our capacity or at the pace capacity rather to work really effectively on a bilateral and multilateral policing strategy with international counterparts. And it means that we've learned a lot about the way these groups work. If we want to talk about the impact of these drugs that have been taken off the street. Unfortunately that won't be such a long lasting effect. Because to have long-term effect. I think this strategic policing approach really needs to go hand in hand with decriminalization and a public health approach to take down the demand because the demand is just so big and the prophets are just so incredibly lucrative that you can take a hell of a lot of drugs australian streets by seizing them at the border and they're still just sorry much out there. It's going to be a drop in the ocean. Okay so the operation is impressive. Because of its global scale but in terms of ending the illegal drug trade in ustralia. It's probably not going to make that much of a dent but taking also says what really stands out about this. Operation isn't the arrests or the charges or even the number of weapons and drugs seized. It's how police managed to do this on that front. She says we should give credit where it's g. I think it's honestly really innovative. Brilliant and it sounds like it's just being the product of a couple of people sitting down and thinking about how they can be really inventive with trading these spaces and what we've seen is policing try to respond to transactional and series organized. Crime groups exploiting online spaces that unregulated and in this instance. This has been a multilateral policing effort to explore their similar spaces so what they did was development app strategically deploy that into the hands over narin syndicate leader or ke operative who then deployed that to his business partners to us and then the fbi pages sat back and watched and collected evidence for three years in order to shirts. Obviously a little more complicated than that. But that's been a key part of it so it's it's really It's really innovative. But the interesting part about it is that it's a lot of discussion about the assistance and access bill of two thousand eighteen which is encryption bill. Now that would be relevant. If this was for example trying to get information off what's at But the enorm- app that was deployed was actually developed by these policing and intelligence agencies. So i don't see any reason that this this bill would have been necessary to actually get the information. They needed for the sting now. What getting is the legal basis for this operation and particularly the fact that from what we've been told. The fbi started listening to conversations on a norm. Not in the us. I but here in australia. Where i have pei do listening and report back. Generally to the fbi about what they were hearing which is weird right. Because if you're the fbi and you have the tools why not just do it yourself on home soil with your own criminal kingpins and at a press conference in sydney on tuesday. The prime minister scott morrison was asked about one that came about and he had this reply from louise pass some controversial legislation to access in the that shows an operation cocoa the battles legal capability rather than out in other words. We are able to do things that other countries were not legal to the united states in the various statements to decide what they wish to say. What i now is the australian federal police and state law enforcement forces are the best in the world. and that's why countries such as the united states choose to partner with us and certainly as a government we make no apologies for ensuring that allen forced matarrese have the past mythologies they need to stop criminal thugs and gangs so it's not exactly clear whether the legislation here was the key or not and take point is that she can't quite see why it would have been because as we said already. This wasn't a case of police needing to force tech companies to give them access to an encrypted app like whatsapp for example a telegram because in this case they had already gained access themselves. So if it wasn't because of australia's laws. Why did the fbi work with australia. I and other second to use this aves dropping ability. Look i think could be any number of operational reasons for that. And i'd honestly just be speculating. One of the reasons that australia is interesting is that it's been identified as an opportunity for really growing market in international drug trade. You know if. I was to hedge my bets. I would say it'd be about the way that groups that have previously not been working together because they've been competing for market space or not been working together because their operation is just not that globalized are establishing the kind of connections. That main are the fbi working with mexican caught working on operations about mexican cartels. Martin not have always had the relevance to strengthen drug market that it does today. now we have evidence that for example Precursor chemicals full meth made in china. Go through africa. End up back in the south east asian region and then come into australia after being produced perhaps in the shan state of myanmar and similarly you know cocaine is moving around the in very different ways to how used to these gangs and groups. I shouldn't call them gangs. Because i think that implies that they're listen television and organiz than they are they working on a truly globalised scale now and it means that their business models are incredibly resilient to the kind of policing strategies that were more effective channel. Twenty guard sword. I think that the way agencies decide to target groups has to necessarily being formed by intelligence that they have about the way that different parts of the world working together today. If you asked teagan there are other reasons beyond our existing legislation that could explain why the f. b. i. worked so closely with the ifp but one more interesting feature of that. Press conference on. Tuesday was the claim that on top of the existing legislation new powers would be needed relates to be able to keep on top of criminal networks in fact it was a big part of the prime minister's message when he opened the press conference. What's important as we go forward from. This point is not just the support that we continue to provide that you're in the budget but we need to continue to provide a law enforcement authorities with the pows and the authorities dying lead to do this job. Now go into the slider and questions if you like but there are a series of places of legislation that we've been seeking to move through the power to stay with this term but in some cases over three times. They need these powers to do their job. The eye of law enforcement agencies and other agencies that support them laid the support of our parliament to continue to the job that i do to keep a strident saif government shift from that. And we'd call in the parliament toback demean as we have done so i've has such a long time and to get the results that in particular we're seeing today. Let's talk a little more about those bill. So there was a reference to them at the press conference on cheese day. By the prime minister he sort of cold on other parliamentarians outside of the coalition to sort of help. These bills into law through parliament What specifically are the additional powers that the law enforcement is seeking so first of all. We've got the identifying disrupt bill of twenty which is about expanded. ifp an acc. How is to disrupt dot online. So what that means is instead of just being able to use the online space to gather evidence to prosecute that these agencies have the right the power to disrupts modified zodda online to actually frustrate criminal f. It's so that means a shift from responding to and prosecuting criminal activity to actually try to disrupt and prevent through those data modifying mechanisms. The second one is that we have the international production order. Bill previously spoken about as the cloud act. And that's about international orders for companies to hand over data if those companies operate in countries that australia has agreements with to access electronic combs dada. So that's about what we spoke about previously about having a foster for agencies to get what they need to frustrate criminal efforts and to get the data that they need to prosecute and that's important leap are only about having relationships like that with countries that australia has trusted have similar civil liberty protections now. The third one is the online safety bill. Twenty twenty one. And that's about extending expanding. The safety commission power was okay so a few expansions of law enforcement powers being contemplated there. But what does that pitch have to do with this thing. well take. It's not really sure. I guess in the context of this this bust this breaking up of criminal networks. Is it fair decided. Police have obviously pulled this off within the existing legislative framework. So is there really a need. If if this is the this is what we're talking about police potentially being able to disrupt. Is there a need for the laws to go. I think that's a really valid question. And i don't have a simple answer for it because share the same concerns that i want police to have the right tools that they need to respond to the way. Threats are presenting in new and exacerbated ways online but i also want to have cost to privacy and freedom online yeah and just focusing on encryption. How big a how. Big an obstacle is that for policing is hacking encrypted apps getting as or is the encryption technology. Getting more sophisticated. Well honestly i don't. I'm not into policing agency early. On what i know policing agencies publicly put out there which is that. It's a significant challenge to responding to these threats but at the same time you're a lot of new and savvy apps out there every couple of years and i think that the challenge is really that a lot of these apps are being developed by people who have really admirable and storage commitment to democratic freedom. And it really comes out of this sort of you know it's really influenced by the the whistle blower discourse of the last fifteen years and how it's really important to maintain our ability to comment publicly on what's happening and to be able to have places that are completely private and defensively. Sorry in order to identify issues of corruption and perhaps unethical behavior in governments are. I wouldn't say that there should be an easy way to access encrypted dada but on the other hand. It's you know the pay is not trying to access everybody's dada. The pay is trying to access. Data to mitigate serious security risks Which is not as easy as saying. Will you know we know. Our police mean well. So let's relinquish democratic freedoms and give them free rein. This debate has been happening for a very very long time. I can't think of many debates that are more fundamental to democracy. Sorry it's something that we should invest in and and embrace that it's going to be a difficult and complicated way forward in terms of legislative change right and while we have that debate however long it takes taking also says it's a fair bit. The trap that worked this time will not be working again. These groups are incredibly smart and they will learn from this and i think it would be very challenging to have anybody for this the second time so given that we've spoken about that some of these impacts will be long him and i would argue that those are really about our skills and ways of working internationally with other policing agencies and learning about the way these organizations work but list so about actually taking drugs off the street and we'll stopping them in their tracks. You know what's the strategy next time. Because next time. I imagine that it will be a discussion about wanting to access encrypted data. That doesn't belong to these policing agencies and potentially as you said before criminal groups who are given a google pixel fine with a fantastic uploaded onto it might be a little more circumspect and taking it up absolutely i mean the same as i definitely felt for an email scam that i thought was for my work during carbon and now i've let's be incredibly safe online and i think most people you know have done that are lost. He is and it would be you know. I don't think that the ifp is not expecting that to be know. A one hit wonder strategy which was incredible but probably not going to happen again. That's the signal today if you want to get in touch on email is the signal. Abc dot net donahue and as always. We'll be back innerfade tomorrow. We'll go to then phi. You've been listening to an abc podcast. Discover more great abc. Podcasts live radio and exclusives on the abc listen app.
Episode 269 - Police Operation Ironside What Are The Implications?
"The hello and welcome to moscow. Tv uptick in sick weekly. But i'm chris. On the executive editor we must security media and today. We're going to be joined by dr. John coin hit of strategic policing and law enforcement at the australian strategic policy institute looking at operation on side Which was a strange federal police police agencies from across the strata as well as the federal bureau of investigation a h-honestly cryptic at and captured underworld circles worldwide. The stories continue at bit again. That john is buckby Channels we'll have a look at the implications of this not just broken odds crime middle-sized full of policing as well as encryption itself And encrypted app sits bring on dr john coin from the australian strategic policy institute and head of strategic policing and law enforcement john. Thanks for joining us roy. Pleasure increase minus been a little. While says the first we've had you on for the yeah but Some big news on operation on side in the ustralian federal glaze And you broadly of interviewed over these. Spf often does on these types of issues. Maybe introduced us to operation on solder. Your initial kind of ticon. It and then we'll look at sort of the three pillars of the implications but for organized crime full policing and then for encryption. So yeah your initial thoughts on operation on side. Chris what you know what. I'm smiling. Because i use an old police officer ex police officer job so that's one cut away usually pleasure be week. It's a huge week in law enforcement. National league globally and for communities. And y'all are put that should share to my extra federal police colleagues and will broadly they They collaborate sti- collars unprecedented operational success. And one. Which will guys who the second you know if you if you're looking to buy some maybe maybe rights to these one. I think you've got a really good chance at going. Brought to their oscar cited that live back a few. He is an my finds. Come on with many from analog to digital by law enforcement fan themselves all of a sudden up against two things the my secure communication the bad guys could get the hanes on which is a combination of blackberries and at stripped at blackberries with lovely at called phantom secure now it took a number of years and some really amazing collaborative work between the various five. Is laura full size grip. So they said. They scrape his quo. Price between new zealand is canadians. The us a stri. And finally i got a mac This really great story about this is that they finally arrested a number of criminal to glide they have been using fame secure secure calms is critical in that business so having a few american. That's trying the sounds like giant and something of making up there talking. What if we created what if we created a phantom secure immaculate and thus begins the story eventually play at last week which is creating getting stripped out fine creating a pace of encrypted software called nam. Now they getting assistance to make sure that they can descartes or sorry decrypted. In near real time then itself would have been amazing fight but then there's talking about it fully him on a lot of a lot of all or all. The senior management police now in the younger population with the police will take especially when it comes to trains national series organized crime. Now this story seemed like just take storing but it gets even better they so what they did. Is solis undercover. Were able to get a crooks to hike up and adopt using these a Platforms then was sudden globally if i stop patriots iran plus going around them up from word a math and the criminal community. All the wall in the background is a really great quite from last week from the ice trying. Federal police commissioner race cushal. Which was you know they hang on themselves. It just truly amazing story in iowa a a range of different pots and slotting stories would lock probably most importantly a combination of old school skills. Like you what was cetera and something. I've hopping on mind race. And you know i've talked to in the past which is a a sense of entrepreneurialism and not the old school entrepreneurialism an innovation he lawrence and i think these this is a true example of fat and global cooperation. And we're saying is a race by now you know we can say the last week has been an amazing fee fantastic twenty threats to death. Adele threats to kill been disrupted hundreds against hike in off the street Let me read ends some john. So it's the bane reading the presumed secure all messages that resulted in last. Monday's rides so. I stayed plays agencies in the act of two hundred and twenty four people on five hundred twenty. Six charges with saltiness rights ran the wheel down. Stan has been another sixty plus at risk this week. Across multiple jurisdictions That collective twenty million messages and monitored activity on eleven thousand nine hundred devices and this brought us to discussing the implications of that on that many messages that many devices that many arrests in the intelligence that i get from this I think you touched on the innovation. That is this a thing. So innovative thing cross Across jurisdictions elvin the beyond strata. How much implications these have. Because they learn how to wick to each with each other. That's a big ad. Come as well as just police. Balls to place bulls mccall. I think there's there's a range of factors taken consideration. So i'll make him a rewriting because i've got colleagues franson in the police community so number one is just. It's amazing numbers. That you've just read at inc let-let's promote and all night at even from background. That is a big operation. And i don't i have big betty's but that in terms of a scale of strata been bigger investigations but on an operational level. Sadly it's huge sansa place across the short and then across alarm song and that's something to be celebrated i think also what a guy An unprecedented look inside the hood of transnational series organized crime and organized crime in this country. So it turned around and gave. And i think this is the most important partners to parts of this. I is that it gave us a capacity to understand like never before. Have the crooks upright up in help facilitate said these are the people who are accountants lawyers paypal waking the border environment have by uprightness guide with each other and that's unprecedented. Give into the second pot. I'm the only a race in august cycle to a long term impacts of is but we only receive governor real opportunity here and the government of various levels in stride or elsewhere up to use that understanding the vulnerabilities and not just a tyke. It on his lawyers is a camp and studies paper which is regarded as i thought not not just the tight thighs once but to really close off. The bummer believes that allowed them to become corrupt. So there's some real heavy lift policy work. The and to be questioning amongst association groups allege it that has that's mighty and just on that i haven't read too much on the second We mentioned professional service providers. Stop ragas Owes accounts as you mentioned in lawyers. There wasn't a lot of at comes on corruption at this stage that i imagine that my will come at a little on the by. I think there's a lot more to come here. And this was the clear message that The authorities of i'd strangford replacement date commissioner day. The pay 'em said which is dry here which is a these go on for months and months. And perhaps even he is as the unpacked twenty million up. Communications stop doing some real data crunching and lincoln nalysts and Tampa analysis we're gonna say and some already but we still the worst the worst hiking now. What we gonna say now is is significantly alleged number of snap in terms of of lasting impact and these guys into the nampa. That's the good news and the bad news. So i think right nam the drag market so definitely strang and organised crime and heavily impacted. The up deal is and facilitate as we'll be packing out. I've lost weight pushing whatever drugs. They holding down to the street level to him down the toilet. I must say that unfortunately or fortunately you know a lot of people. A lot of other people a lot of money with that being tongue in cheek. The old glebe. They'll be a lot of. I suspect rickety across the krahn community following these and that that's a risk and that's something that i play commission to maintain that he had spike into the state territory. Jurisdictions drinks press conference last week. So i think that we're gonna say that i've taught i think price at straight level which has historically been styling this country for methamphetamine and Trying and I suspect the prices of is will rise now. Some people say. Isn't that fantastic futch. I fortunately abdomen thighs addicted to drugs. That have a tendency of sign. Well my my point of heroin was fifty dollars last week. Announced a hundred. I will give up. What i tend to commit more crimes and i suspect you know We've gotta so probably six months to a year to really they prepared for that knicks. Why people who got into the market to become hall sows and owner's calm because the replies you can take out and just on sunday ahead on early last year during covid is that was kind of unfolding or a after covid was unfolding. How how would they have comes of china during covid because obviously that drug tried was implicated by lockdowns and the lack. So i imagine they're electronic comes went up During covid say not even on these types of encrypted communications it might have even create. Increase the the chatter in the traffic. Anyhow look suspect saw the the heat that comes from the federal place that's the case the case was the guy back to the compliance of of tech innovation. And and of course good old fashioned. Even suicide kaba work which is convinced they were convinced the authorizing with anyone listening to them so this is just one of many platform. So i think that i think every crime figuring stri had taken up on and to use home so there's still going to be after these other platforms but the other thing we haven't so to betty's is that people ask me. I will ask wake there said you know why the eye of pay and the fbi the pod would tell everyone about these and i said well you know. I think that would have had a point which you have to release and you have to call it a diet that sort of intelligence collection because you run the risk of you know someone was killed yelling at center so i think it'd run. Its course. i'm sure that were presented with that decision a number of times over the period that because as you said there was some twenty with death rates in the implants. You know even now. A potential was a bombing or a public shooting. He gets a family. Until i think you know. I think that had to do that. But the other pop ingeniously the lasting impact. At least a little off at the bay. That i'm not gonna trust any other and they're going to be that going to be looking every future platform that year. It's never dance and there's always the reality is that this always there's always good points and back. Pointsman comes to these sorts of developments. I think that what would probably say. I'm not running a half to go. I bet random bat now if if you wanted to see their sales something to organized crime a secure platform is exactly what i won't be looking for an aura or an away mike sure that platforms are secure sub between you and i think that's That's one of the challenges christie and i like We'd probably cray is another market for providing secure combs and of these will again look. Well they can't use it extended period of time it does bring it does. That's probably one of the k. Implications isn't it the bus by the methodology of communication. If you are on the dockside and how you communicate Whether it's card way if if it is encrypted long can use that full how scf that. He's policing methodology understanding that there's going to be a pivot on on the dockside to this but As you pointed out traditional human sources was still involved in this so the end of the day as long as there's a person at the end of that device there's always have under ability even saba lately. There's a westbound abilities with. I think that's the case. And i think that one of the things that are lost on people though is that h new and he is gone barn of audience and worked in signals intelligence or telephone interception the encryption software capabilities going hit leaps and bounds and flora National security to keep up with that has been incredibly challenging. Why else would you have. You had the director of the fbi saying you know what we going now this occasion. That are using sperry specific. Set of circumstances address going doc but i'm not one hundred percent convinced longer time that still a viable option. And so you know. I think encryption is gonna be a really difficult challenge. And certainly kanai blew a transnational series over craw void. I look like they're going to be happening anytime soon. So if you wanna do a criminal deal if you wanna if you wanna be able to talk the pot offshore. You have to find a mechanism for doing that. That's yes on. I still think it will be. Attractive is just week platforms. And you trust a hattie nod. Which wants to trust but unifies nineties transit but we met giacobbe really old organized crime and votto crime. Exactly the smartest people some of those mice lost in that area. Certainly have smarts and rob to invite robin quickly. And i suspect those the ones who are going to be the early adopters we touch on encryption. And i think it was the last week or the week before. The timing was impeccable. In terms of the internet society released a report on the on the economic impacts of air encryption laws and the on the. Ib say they've got an article that there was a risk seeing in the us related to the separation because of the privacy lewis protected. The night couldn't use some of that evidence. What have you saying organizations around set of the toll racked and the chinese to have telecommunications act on the encryption does is that good or bad hearing sort of mom ms couple of things with that such a number of countries and the industry doesn't like it like no that's understandable a number of countries. I've successfully us operations on saw information to on taika race and operations monitoring the fbi deep. Mike some offshore is award in. Yeah but i think know. There's ninety at that the act itself yourself from experienced cool coordination cooperation chance of transnational series organized crawl cross jurisdictions it's very very challenging and a challenging the federal authorities here in strived to wick the stipe territories It gets significantly more difficult when you're talking lively so i'm not unusual that a clear line up in terms of Encryption so my personal viewpoint often gets many your audience will will probably have a better understanding. Crucial unawed encryption is a lot a lot of twenty. Th century so in some ways have encryption device plaza in the mainstream media and then in the the the alternative me particularly unhelpful because it creates a binary context which is a gumma evil and trying to take dada on one side on the other side. Encryption allows throw criminals to do things. Muggy point is these which is that. Encryption is a locked blood of the twenty first century. I can't go on line up to successfully Do banking book tickets Or anything else like that with adding christian. So it's a necessary thing in the comes that Among some a- policy mike is that you can put a magic back door in their or similar concepts of that up as a number of the people listening. He's will understand the mets behind it. Which is i think that that's particularly possible. In fact what it does is eight to y at away the at lifeblood bakti. I think that You know. I'm not convinced that it's all about the laws and all about tola. I'm and i will say i think we need to be very very careful about the idea of propagating. The discussion of policy of discourse around policy dis school. Saran to die these work in operation on sites that we'd be more legislation what we need in this country is more innovation in an forcement and more international cooperation between law enforcement agencies and the proof of that was operation on saw it. I think important. Well it's a good point on interesting to say where that legislative crepe goes United different sorts after nine eleven. And the like. But i think i was saying it with the child exploitation. And you see this at serious transnational crime where you know. I think it's a good basis for the public. That one of the place agencies are active. They're innovative by using the legislation. That does come into play. But i think you're right. As long as we don't get legislative creep Coming into ply is a good thing. Now let's maybe touch on a policing itself and all the agencies as you said potentially thousands of players involved the intelligence of this builds up Full them at you touched on how they communicate. But also you know there's some We talked about two hundred twenty. Four people arrested as serious organized. Crime the blackie's amari hot water. The potential implications for them giving evidence against others. They met deals going on. There's a lot here. What are the implications for policing itself into the future. Look there's there's some throwaway society. He should wish you'll probably got brian. I think it's important. We clearly articulated number. One is that i'm so. Yeah they'll concept of an investigator. Having the time skills police vista gotta had ten years ago. I think completely out the window. Now get down national trae line. I think a police officer needs the deal with big data analytics. I need to be able to To yourself leading our developing Dada scientists up to find the paces. That magic sloughed is the only count from being look at the hall will the informational just little paces intensive evidence. I think that's going to be incredibly Credibly important so this real china head law enforcement may to operate. I also think that sort of rita rights early points. Those making the ran. Cooperation have an understanding of of cooperation and understanding of how organized crime groups. You know i had dr. But i'm not an academic really a deadlock the check what. I've done one of the way on. Modern understanding of transnational serious organized crime comes out of wick by donald cressey. A did some significant work to the us government alight sixties early seventies. At the time he studied italian organized crime and so he came up with this sort of concept hierarchy organizational structures and shortly thereafter at paul sips of say pyatt. I've lost several decades. Which is this concept of the petition theory. Pablo escobar. Okay so we understand. He's organizationally do as being hauraki structure type peddler than offals. I know everything psychiatrist. Who actually. that's not what could at all with a foul situation A tape on himself. A you know the taekema all play lives we've had cetera. He's he's He's group is still operating in new york to this day might be noticed being tikal while to get back but they still operating and had nine lasting impact on on organized crime if we go and have a look at If we look mexican sign pro. We went employer of the same theories that we against pablo escobar. And what's happened with the cocktails. The nothing a seiichi law and the company has been detained in the netherlands. Bring back here. I'm happy citing any change in terms of drug production in myanmar. Look i think not so what we found the this is the really interesting part of of this operation onslaught which is a sudden. We understand i. If i pay commission talking about this last week. He has make us. We have a motorcycle gangs and some members were doing things as part of the gang and then doing things. I've swayed now. I've been using a time philosophy by patch. Today's more ten years abused this time called amorphous. i really like because if it might be smart but way from that on a series like gas amorphous. They're shop and i think that train special series organized crime has more office than these structure events. So yes you will find at times people operating you know you can see it right dan to Individual individual say gee level. So tom's you'll say am say j. Chapter waiting to get all the times has power brought a patent of clubs and then all the top individual members themselves by gangs find admission criminal activity. So i think that what this is not gonna give evidence now. That's a tough one and a bean appeals swell at because if you think back. I've a all lavelle intelligible policing intelligence activities when it comes to transnational series overnight as we all saif you take out the big. It's generally as we speak. But if you take that mr big the whole thing is gonna fool live. So i think it really brings into dance some of that decapitation theory does these denigrate. The grind work the that. I just season followed up. Done the array sny a businessman that he will be prosecuted in a court of law. Cream lacks And then if they prosecuted And they punished as big value in that. As saudi i think the the valley social value and psychological value for the sake iran saying these people held to account But certainly for the average member of the public you know. I think you should be fooling yourselves of these means. Maintainable is crime in any game. And i'll i'll second that to the say she just get bigger and bigger we saying the writing it bigger and bigger. It's not necessarily because the place do have the moreso spread. The crime is there to be to be captured. Eight one innovative approach. And you can get sort of a big ride like this but it doesn't mean crohn's gonna stop and we die how it will give it and haven't we'll come back in what form it will come back to particularly when you take cab the number of say j. heads in the like hell else gyna- upright soy. It's one for the policy. Think is i mean. I'll take a cynical view when you get. The prime minister coming out toward is pay commission to there has no choice. But i take that political flavor into that and decide the we've been funding the pay and this judea at political motivations and and and work That's one danger way the policy. Mike has feel. It's an easy win for them without thinking to the long term implications of this and what other crime prevention avenues. That should be hiking so it doesn't get this to the sky. Those bites rot. But this thing out of chris are and i think that most people think about politically. There's is a great value. Look a politically this. Great value that standing in front of me to Police officers with drug type of field full of drugs. They love it. And what i do but also has deep psychological value to the gentlest ryan. Public i loved so as i. It gives you a tangible something that can say. Why are we spending so much. Lower forcement But yeah you're rod like the biggest same thing. He is our central to all of these. So is on and put in terms of you know the laundering of price eights crime. I think that if all that saw what you find these is that of this event drugs. This profit making drugs akeso national strategy and and Had is like a three legged stool so once on one side is supply reduction and the theories is that supply for jesus apply. The price is up and people. Can seamless in bali because account the other two links Demand reduction which done through a range of prices including education and on the other saw is hominum isolation combined together they might drug strategy and a strategy to the fate organized crime done on their iron and the deep sad reality for is trying. Publican is this is for some reason. Australians youngest prides miceli but ryan to a strides consume more drugs. More often appeared reprocessing sensitive. And that's the challenge. We having chanting what itself some spicer. The work a little opportunity costs. Here's will crease. The law enforcement and courts. It's going to be looked up. The is breaking evidence You know the mountains of pipe would've and recall and the cost of duma assigns each many points that prosecutorial abc bought at the same question. Everyone played played not guilty and texas the trial You're right it's going to take years that billups of racism which is the thing we should do. You think there's been enough discussion around. That brought a national drug strategy and the approach out of this operation. Have you heard anything like that. Like draw naive raised in your comment. But i think the promises type increase was really prominent. Was really telling only siamese and we have to be hot on these have been ran long enough cyanide. A drugs thank you. To the reagan's whilst was a powerful message. It didn't really make any difference. You know having this conversation earlier tonight you know. Couldn't we do something out of a p between palm drink core these which is something we did for the. I came pine big advertisements. And i'm like oh we could. It might have some impact but the thing is is that a young people think they're going to leave for him. So you know. Big scary ad shows someone addicted to a drug. That doesn't necessarily risen i. Today's young. Because i trust the the main has been communicated to them. And secondly is that much people think the gangly forever and the evidence in change of drug consumption saints to agree with that so I it some tough policy works. Not what i think. We've done enough to get a hates iran that and we certainly know having to compensations if you remember back in to the heroin crosses in this country you know nothing will powerful than Than prime minister. Bob hawke standing up in front of standing up front of these triumph. Paypal law maty crying. Sign that he thought it was a heroin addict. Because then took it from these life social economic kids in underprivileged kids to this problem. Everybody and i think we've had that discussion. And i think as new south wildly will mice the that when nibble reigns. The was arrested for methamphetamine. Use but i think we've still got a long way to go and having that conversation here in australia. What was stunning to have a little bit. I mean they're in camera. Is the candidates deregulation is it is it. They regulate is not legislated legislator not sorry long standing. I'm not expert has possession. Personal possession has been decriminalized that's important. Well that's a in one direction for this guy poland. No i don't think it has a similar. You know we saw until came along. We saw Musical music festival here in cambridge. I started siamese usually appeal testing was done arguably some keach will iran. I should say because i'm not. Some young adult will iran. You know who are alive today because the drugs are going to tie tasted fan contain the substance and the will evening. They oughta saw it all. Depends i guess. And let's put it another a very personal y you know i saw a side would And i'm citizen files government before which is if you're asking me and i have a young son you're me. What do i prefer. My son die of drug. Either dies all that. He's peels get tasted arbitrary fills it tasted. But if you pass me whether or not prefer. He used drugs or not. I don't tony teenage drugs. Eric hedrix and came so he doesn't even go there in the first place. But if you do that i want him to charge. A scientist. Possible nets really. That's a tough discussion. That i'm still think. And some of these things you know. Even when i have these conversations about kinda magin tomatoes nice saif usage of of methamphetamine and if a recreation or no heroin so That's a tough one. A struggle with that can wrestle with that concept of the talk but gene vase. Which is. I'm not convinced that we should be criminalizing A usually drugs will power the implications of what we wanted to look at. It was at least trying to get an evidence based Mature compensation around narcotics and the legal in the illicit drug tried. And hopefully this abrasion might assist that somehow even with the intelligence collected on how they're operating and hopefully understanding the different lies of that tried and knowing that i'm legalization or criminalization modest. I think the biggest one there We went to touch too much. Further is the ongoing prosecutions and those support requirements and the resources they Maybe something it's maybe too early to to coal but definitely there's going to be dating some longer. Tim caught strategy in involved in toronto. Manage these The some five hundred twenty charges but this two hundred twenty four people with another sixty this week An ongoing investigations. My will require some additional and to encode securities another one. There's gonna be some threats and risks Around the pavement velvets judges look. I suspect saw this is way. It's always been. I pay commission might very clear last week that there's know probably going to be some schools to be settled out of. They says a lot of people who are a lot of people a lot of money. Ain't we guide to say that. Play out on this and people who feel cheated betrayed and they're going to say that play. I'm you know i. I can't say this is going to be a long activity that needs to be funded and but you know this is why also arises. It's just bitterly. Which is this is criticality of of understanding of vulnerability so these are some breathing. Spices intelligence when used to work at. How do we stop the next generation of Phuc professional facilitators from becoming professional facilities side. So we can avoid putting them in court so you know. There's a lot of a lot of work to be done in that spice. And i think that some of it requires just as much innovation and new thinking. Because you know the simple thing of lift push some olinda dislikes on through and crack lewis around. This is the answer sadly pocket blocking off. I think we need to take a really called. Hot look to will wear out of the vulnerability so Now the public debate now on Maritime identity cards at the board and so you know that been stuck here in cambridge legislating for two years. But i think that's a magic solution. It's gonna be one pot of a range of issues of putting plice to show off vulnerabilities and apple environment. Okay we'll look come. We've gone for about forty minutes in without the digging a hole into the areas. I think it's a good one to look at. Its any bad a waco saw after the initial announcements out And it's definitely one to watch John it's great to have you on the opportunity to take a look at it. is in the audience. Just put up regime on side into the becky mind. So you're aware of it and you can keep tabs on how this develops over time and then also does long term short made him in longer-term implications for organized crime policing and national Approaches to a dragon harm. Minimization has pointed out with his stool approach. I on that night john. I'm gonna let you guy and the guy thanked onto john coyne hitters contagion placing law enforcement but these strange strategic policies And his thoughts around the implications off. Operation onside johnston encrypted at and captured underworld zip goldwasser.
Are Government restrictions and mandatory interventions lawful? Serene Teffaha
"To news the podcast of the latest news from health. Australia party follow us through the news page on our website at www dot health. Australia party DOT COM DOT AU for more information on this and other episodes. In this episode Molenaar Chech- to Melbourne civil rights lawyer Serene Tiffany We apologize that the first couple of seconds of Molly's introduction was lost from the recording but he's molly and serene in what has generated the most interest of any of you tonight and Civil Litigation. She's interested in government administration and consistency of legislation while she's had limited experience in running class actions, she saying the need which hasn't been filled by the law firms who've chosen to remain silent during these times to do something about what she sees as illegitimate use of legislative powers by the states and territories during these states of emergency pallets. Welcome strain. Thank you so much for joining us. Tonight. Thank you for having May. Your whole introduction. I'm so excited to have you here because Some of the work you're doing is going to be odd believe some of the most. Work that we've seen in how history And It's. So it's awesome that you've stepped up when so many wind. So, let's kick right off to not. We'll start off talking about the state of emergency in Victoria. do you think has the government acted in colder switch law when declaring the state of emergency? and. I wanted to know what conditions or situations like the points that a government body would have been have to take these off. That would lead to having such a dramatic and disparate situation. The response that will basically closes everything down. So what gives? A government the right to colour state of emergency. I. Think. It's really important to understand what public health risk is and out and link to state of emergency? Power? State of Emergency Palette at when they can be declared as well and by WHO and who has the original I guess. Autonomy or decision making in terms of national, public health risks that would take the whole country. It's important to understand the legislative framework and a which this works as well. At what's important to understand here is that Australia has a number of legislative frameworks. There is the Commonwealth or the federal framework of managing states of emergencies in pub-, public health risks, and that sits within the buyers security act on the national level, and that's enact that came in in two thousand fifteen that piece of legislation I would say is good piece of legislation it's been very well. In terms of how to roll out and win to declare a state of emergency and I will come back to that in a short bit. The other layer that operates is the states in the territories powers well, and the the federal legislature is not carving out the states in the territories from having a say in relation to public health issues, and by they usually captured in the respecting public health acts and emergency act that operate on the under the jurisdiction of the relevant states and territories now. Learn acts and fortunately have come much earlier case a each state's interiors have had asked some of them in nineteen seventies. Eighties nineties the early two thousands and unfortunately those acts when you read them holistically because they've had so many different environments happened to them throughout the years they can read in almost in conflict with with themselves. Okay. But what the biased it's Already acted when it came in. On the federal level. It actually cremated itself means at that all the states and territories when council the health risks and many they have to work they can't be inconsistent with. The. Jury. Served by is Security Act. Is the following that wishing she. Helps Muniz stop that sits on the federal level and the? Governor General must declare the emergency and do a declaration order now that Bush war mid under section four, seven, five of the by Security Act and the declaration order for the state of emergency creates a priority in the next Federal Minister K on on on the on the high level and the rules must be applied hundred percent with no conflict the by security. Now, I'll explain when a state of emergency can occur. So what the by security acts is under sections four seven five. That a the governor general made declared that a human body security images exist if the health minister is satisfied that listed human disease is causing a severe an immediate threat or it's causing. To human health on a nationally significant scale, they're actually very powerful words and very serious on a national -nificant scale and and the declaration is necessary to prevent or control the. Obviously the emergence of the listed human disease into the Australian territory and the emerges and the establishment of the spread of the disease. So you can see that the criteria is extremely high. And are the questions have to be is will win is a disease such that pose win? Can you classify it as posing serious threat of how? That he's on a national significant scale. What the by Security Act also says, you can't bring a risk two zero. So try to do that then not a realistic. Okay what? Is Managing it? So it's no longer a significant health risk. The eighteenth of March it was determined obviously in response to the global issue for a novel coronavirus that. The uncertainties related to wit would've probably necessitated. Let's say a declaration of emergency. But we need to now this full five months on what happened in what we have learned. And therefore, that assistant has to pump through with Allen earnings and we need to ask quilt is it still a nationally significant risk? What do we know about this virus? Do we know how many people are able to matic what a What a likely co morbidity, what is the likely risk of people dying with CO morbidity of diseases? What are the age groups and what is the causal fatality rate? Now, what is the causal fatality rate of causal? Fidelity right is actually s attainment of the percentage of those who die from. The cases? Okay. So we need to understand diagnosis and we need understand how things are being diagnosed as well. We need to look testing. We need to look at controversies around that. We need to look at uncertanties around that and then determine that know what has been determined. Last time I checked is the causal fatality right in the Stralia is one point three, eight percent. That's pretty close to zero I carried. A one point three. Child he right. Satisfy the. Terms of the legislation. This is a question. I'm not answering these questions I'm just saying this the prices on the which when it start to turn our attention and what is really important here is that how do these powers operate? Have they opera. What can health minister do and what he can't and what has happened here? Is it instead of the Health Minister doing appropriate? Requirements since setting them on the federal level so that the states and territories follow if they just had outsourced it all to the states and territories. K. and the. Is. Starting to act in a very ad hoc way against what the Bias Security Act says and in fact, against some of what their own legislation says. And I will give an example, I will give a number of examples. What the. By Security You just sit requirements that impact a group of people when it comes to the following aspects. And I will just get that. When it comes truth? I'll get missing seventy nine. I can imagine. What is during a human by security agency periods of section four, seven seven. The health minister may determine a requirement. He'll. She's that is five to prevent or control the entry of the disease. Okay and what it is, these requirements are limited to this. The requirements that apply to persons, Woods conveyances when entering only having a specified plice with in regards to the movement of persons, goods, and the restriction in terms of that movement at evacuation. That means you can only give. Directions on Gripe of people only in relation to very general things like close of business, a winter opinion travel export import, of goods. Planes coming and going ships leaving and coming a k. you can do that on a group of people use issuing directives on a general thing but the buyers security at. From telling a group of people do certain things like masking. Like. Isolating like detaining black vaccinating like. treatment. Unless, you issue an individual with the appropriate biosecurity control. Odor. that. Means you're conscious go to a group of people and tell them all of you he. We're not going to look at the details of each of your situation you all got to be vaccinated or all of you. He got away some masks. All of you he have to be detained in all of you to be isolated Nar Nar Nar that is a big night under the by security at act. What you must do is follow very strict prices that are set to ensure the preservation of human rights and to ensure that the only basis under which you can issue a bias Security Control Order, Arbor following. And this is section sixty. Of the by security at control at the by security. I will now talk to you about what a by a security. Border. What it must consist all's okay Imposing a human bias security control order on an individual. That can be done by chief human by security officer you even by a security officer by security officer now, what you have to do. Security Control or the May be imposed on an individual only if the officer is satisfied of the following, the individual has one oh more signs or symptoms of listed human disease or the individual has been exposed to. Human disease or another individual who has one or more signs of symptoms that means. You're just go to anyone and say, Hey, you you have to vaccinate or you need to be isolated unique to Charlotte that individual is either themselves symptomatic of that disease all you need to show the context of. The name naming the person as to who they were contacted with WHO has listed disease, all the symptoms of the disease. And this is the criteria that is set amber fiction sixty one of the of the biosecurity act meaning. When you issuing a biosecurity security, add you need to tell the person the follow it? You need to tell them the ground under which you are actually ordering or imposing them to do something or not do something. You need to list the signs and symptoms that this offering of the listed of human disease unless you're actually symptomatic, you can't do anything to. Okay because. That prevention of risk you have to show that you're infectious. Or that you were risk of infection. At perfectly healthy person who is not symptomatic, you can't just come and tell them to do something and tell them on a group level. Okay. You have to go to them individually. Then what you need to say, you need to give him a unique identifier. You need to tell them exactly who they were contacted with the name of the person that also has the signs and the symptoms that means you can't just say Oh we think that your expiring. Suspicious that you might be no that's not how the law works. You have to actually race an individual name that and very importantly, you have to give them the right of review you have to give them the right of reviewing that decision to issue by a security control order to either ask you to be managed to be vaccinated retreated to be isolated to be detained to to be diagnosed to be medically to assisted. Everything even the testing you. If you want a required someone to do testing, you have to give them all of these requirements to abide security control order. Now, some states and territories have reflected that in in their respective public health experts following it. has six, one, seventeen, an assist. You have to issue the person of public health odor. And following the laws. Following the laws telling people individually if there's a particular risk, you're not just a perfectly healthy person and then site to them are as a group. I'm not even concerned about your personal details. All of you just do that K and can't do that particularly in an emergency powers. Why? Because otherwise it'll go crazy. And I'M GONNA. Give an example how things have gone out of control and in fact, created more of a virus risk. So what happened in the detention towels? Let's look at what happened in the detention towers and Water Security Act. To it. Versus how they handled the crisis in a way that is completely breaching there is laws and breaching the lowest the federal. Legislator. They identified originally about twenty-three about fifty cases are tried to get the exact numbers, but I believe it was twenty three who tested positive. Now, I'll come back to the problem with testing in just a little bit. These tests. Reliable, for one minute assume they are we'll come back to that. Later we'll break that one apart as well. Okay. Let's assume that these tests support. Okay. He got twenty three people who tested positive at a three thousand Oh that you've locate not that you've that the rest artistic but you know that you've tested in this twenty three positive. If. You're genuinely believed that these people are seemed to Mattie now, by the way, a lot of them weren't symptomatic. Day so they tested positive one symptomatic. They were which they weren't bullets assume K. let's assume you got twenty three positive. He got reliable tests and twenty three harassing dramatic. Lock these people out with the other three, thousand people who potentially many of them can be healthy and look them up in the one time confined in the small space in Umbria to them five hundred cups, and then bring to them almost up to another thousand stuff in a very confined space where the whole notion is not the spread of ours. Bring in people who are not trained. Okay and bringing and detain them. We that actually being issued anything under the law to tell them that where they have to be at what what risks they are, what rights review they have. You've done nothing of that and they've said. I can do that. See You. But let's see what happened He. What happened here is that the the police and the DHS who are untrained? Started to leave biosecurity has the. Everywhere it was coming out of the beans it wasn't wrapped in. Double. Lean. It was Willy Nilly, the food that was delivered people were delivering that without gloves some with that mosque some wearing the PPC search someone not putting the knicks the rubbish. Delivering fruit to people at ten PM with leaking food that is not properly prepared by ships you have occupational health and safety. So yes. We have processes all the papers is not going mad. Because we have processes under the low that creating the right balance between human rights and the need to create proper safety checks. Okay. So the law if it was applied the by security, Control Act and if the by Security Act and the public health and mental wellbeing act in Victoria truly holistically being applied, we would not be applying it in an ad hoc crazy fashion where exacerbating risks rather than containing risks. And that's why we have low. We have low because it gives us prices. Process is extremely important when there's an emergency. Point of prices your. Majesty. Say Pie yet, if there wasn't Alumini Agency, we would use the prices because there's an emergency everything out the window. Lay, that's not how the lower legs you need to make proper assessment of the individuals. If you felt those individuals were really wasn't matic, you could have isolate. You can have given them. An individual owner told them to isolate. Somewhere else provided their pay an accommodation and provided them with the appropriate respectful manner in which you treat them. And I'm not saying, don't do that I'm saying do it properly. But Thunder win an isolated and detain like a bunch of criminals. Three thousand individuals who are the most vulnerable people in our society and call it low four. That's not lawful and that is not risk mitigation. And what I have to say, you've pulled by the medical community I'm a pulled because they all like are some of them are all all the doctors are a game excuse not did not one hundred and fifty doctors and nurses that I'm representing. Okay, I'm connected to so many experts internationally and locally. Who are also saying this is wrong. But you've got the brainwashed almost the now I'm not gonNA listen to us to rain I'm not being listened to what? You will you explode or not I'm not holding myself out to be an expert model I'm a lawyer, and then that's the only expertise the hold. But what I do not I'm also credited nutritionist is well okay but. You know I'm not flaunting that creating an expertise in that. But what I am saying is I've got my logic I've got my law I've got my research, I've got my brain and as a lawyer able to research and present the arguments and get the experts that do not who actually can support these arguments. This is no consensus there is not consensus on this. and. People have to understand that there is no consensus on these issues. Okay. Issues the not like all of a sudden. You disagree with government they full. You're not scientific since when was government the Authority of Science? Since when does government? Science and scientific opinion. And this is the danger that we're speaking of here. This is an extremely dangerous precedent. And we have the laws to support us. We have a scheme of human rights that has been introduced in this nation. If we look at this nation purely from what is written in the provision in the common law. Now, constitution in our laws, you would think that living in the most amazing constitutionally rock country in the world. But we should be afraid you know there's the field and his hatred. Hatred I'll come back to testing and. Let you speak. On. The phone. Go. Well Given what's happened with the state of emergency in these? Towers where is it right now with these people of a out of about of a have they done the time. Will I I'm representing the Melbourne Public Tenant Authority. It was put together as a response to. The lack of representation solid reputation for the residents, there's almost three thousand residents aged imagine imaginatively unity in multicultural. Can You? The empty PTA was set up by a wonderful man who is very concerned for his community. Okay. At Eight, set it up with a view of consolidating the residents he reached out to me and I was so happy to to get his coal and Hayes said Serene we need representation I can't we need to consolidate this because it appears that the government thinks to divide and conquer thing in it's very easy to to you know because there's a lot of vulnerable people in that community and now let them vulnerable people who just don't know what the cameras on them you're the whole world was looking at them they just The Lard. Why They was compliant nurturing. Lovely people up and down at Franson on what would have been made it. Doesn't. Want to sit down and go. But you. See. These people are manage. These people have have have kind of offered and all they want is to be respected and they were treated with respect. So he reached out to me and I'm representing the now and we urging as many residents to obviously have membership under the MP, I.. A. K. With there's a lot of residents did now have joined a K. and I happy with the representation and he's working really hard to goner and collect as many of the residents as possible. And I urge the residence if you're listening to this also join m. p. t. a. k. because with one voice can actually raise the consensus and I have communicated that the chief officer, the Deputy Chief Health Officer Daniel Andrews and the chief police. And I've sit out with them how unlawful their action. I K. now they've assigned to the lawyers and the lawyers the looking at it. Happens. I had space. Yeah. I have been looking at it very carefully because I'm not going away. Okay and this is. Hearing this I'm not going away. Okay. This is not going away. Okay. We have powerful arguments. And these people have been treated abominably ill. Woman to believe some of the worst treatment that I've seen. Okay and ridiculous to bring in police under the law. You can't you got under the Biosecurity Act you can't use force. The. Absolutely. The last resort for enforcement. Screw control the human you have to be issued an enforcement order. And only if you breach, then you can bring the police. You don't bring in five hundred cups overnight I expect people to be okay with that. Do you have any inkling as to why it was done like this. Oh I got. It sounds to me like. He doesn't Powell treat bullies. With bullies every day I. fought bullies every day and this is another thing. People are so conditioned to think that united bureaucracies are to love them and help them. It's cognitive dissonance. Only. Live that bureaucracies are composed of individuals and these systems allow people who have power trip is to rise through the chain. We have messy problem in this country we have. Problem with family volumes, we have massive problem with pedophilia. Let's call it at the big mess in the room. Big Mammoth in the room pedophilia is the biggest problem in this country, the biggest virus in this country a k. and when we talk about issues that are impacting us people think all year. Let's trust the bureaucrats implicitly. What are these bureaucracies protecting pep trade is predicting themselves predicting their own interests in are aligning themselves private companies over interest. So people have cognitive dissonance. No, we must trust government. When you say well, hold on why are they doing things that are certainly logical. Because every day. I deal with the illogical. Every day with bureaucracies that do. Things to people. And people are so disillusioned to believe you know that bureaucracy mark composed by individuals are driven by power tripping and hurting others. It's very uncomfortable for us to believe that some people enjoy a power trip. My K. and I'm not saying very I'm not saying he the individual medical doctors and they're they're. Totally. Amazing. Okay. But as an establishment and as a ever arching. Private Organization that has a lot of other benefits that are coming into it. It could create brainwashing and it can create a reality that he's not true. and. So we'll come back to Pistons circe. I'd like to. Definitely Straits are. One of the criteria a in the act is obviously determining a signs and symptoms occur and determining infectious disease status okay. The, RTP seattle the nucleic acids is cold now, very interestingly path from the fact that the government itself on his own website. TJ Therapeutic was administrators Cayenne, the Government Department of Health itself folks about the unreliability of these tests in ascertaining the infectious disease status someone. Reliable something is eighty percent is pretty. When we're talking about those percents unless they're really close up pie, you create false positives. If they done have high vincent accuracy especially in a pool that has a causal fatality rate that his lawyer. So yeah, every percentage cancer. IS YOU TALK TO PEOPLE Rod is pretty close with. The law of them were like. All right now, what is also very critical today? Hanley peer reviewed, published a paper that came out today. International, Journal of direct trix and. on rehabilitation it came out today the paper, the current this is the this is the result of the paper the current nucleic acid tests kissed for south cards to generate thirty percent false positives and twenty percent false negatives. Up, to fifty percent room. Good accuracy. That's appear fights. Okay. So what does that mean? What that means is using ATI. Tested a highly unreliable. then. Not Test that should be. Relied upon diagnosis what the media, what the government and the chief health officer saying is a positive test isn't infection. Outrage. That even outrage in in a corner more that would be thrown out in a court of law that would be thrown out that argument. because. Is I usually the ones who form arguments not doctors in our thanks deduction. It will be thrown out. With thirty percent false positives and twenty percent false negatives reliably. But I'll tell you what they're reliable full. Australian government has a very interesting. And that is it sets up internal bodies to question itself, and that's what I love about this country. Is that you've let a lot of buddies that are are looking at it at itself to the government has this body look at itself and that body. So they've got family court problems and they are the judges getting it all wrong and they neither there's a hell hole there in in in the family, they get the Australian Law Reform Commission to come mean. The lower commissions looks at. And we the FAMILY COURT SHOULD BE ABOLISHED Body is looking at it South K.. Similarly here. We have a body cold Australia's Strategic Policy Institute. and. Australian Strategic Policy Institute looks at contracts and looks at security risks for this country. And you know what they've produced I'll tell you what they produced. What they've produced is a report to identify that the ten million rt PC artists that we got from Chinese company called Beijing Genomics. Institute is actually doing a fantastic job of DNA profiling. For the Chinese government, they're actually building a police run BNA databases. And I've got all the reports. They're all online, the Australian Strategic Policy Institute one, the government of the security risk of using RTP artists million of them that burning. Home. Full the fact that the BG I is is related very strongly to companies that are engaging in DNA drag. Profiling beginning, that's right. Serve reliable for covid nineteen, but they're pretty good at getting your DNA information. Now. Business I didn't say this. You know people get angry what do you mean your conspiracy? Theorist. I'll give you the reports I say it sit. No can come off to me. And what are the implications? But. The one identifying the security risk. Government Buddy, he's identifying the risk, your risk, and what does the government say to the government saying to the government? Hey, guys some my hero and the government guys now she'll be. She'LL BE WROUGHT Let's not talk about this DNA dragnet directly. Online. They sit. Serene what can we do? Or what can we do as individuals yet the. Import I just want to before saying, what can we do I do want to talk about very importantly as well. There people understand where they can go to to the act. Via Secure Watt says via security control orders in the type of things that need to be done on an individual level that means what other. What other things they can do to your Required to, but they have to issue you a by security. Control Order An- identify you infectious disease risk K.. Before so they need to do that I in identify issue you the controller with all the requirements in the review riots. Okay. These are some of the things. To do with risk minimization is a fiction eighty, eight including using specified clothing or. So masks you can't just go tell a group of people wear masks you need to go specifically. So if you're in the hospital in your healthcare, you need to wear masks of medical grade and showing take breaks particular spaces so that you're not suffocating. Above Dr. Exactly it for example, they say, Particular Individuals Aka. If they work in specific spaces that are extremely congested, maybe they can tell them to wear the masks, k.? O Community to wear mosque all the time when you're out or providing some exemptions that are very strict or restrictive. Is Not how the mitigation of race and nothing. There aren't provision section eight of the by security, a k. six in ninety-one requiring buddy samples, the diagnoses. You need to also be issued by security controls where does the asked to be tested? You need to actually be identified as a risk a K. K. K.. Is Signs and symptoms now. What they've done a very very maliciously is that they said all if you're a symptomatic, you can actually infect. We know from a lot of studies that have been done. That's very rare. That's always qualified as very rare. You do not foreign policy on things that are very rare. That is not how public house galaxies formed and that's very disingenuous and who has come up repeatedly people coming up from scientists who going yeah. That's not going to happen and the next day. WHO's like nine? All that Kussin. Contradictory night. Kidding. Betting managing contacts asking contexts. Okay. You got to be issued advice security control order section eighty six. Officer with the health status at six eighty, seven restrictive behavior. If they're telling you to do certain things on an individual level you have to be identified as. Undergoing examination or taste. Now. We've got a new South Wales people randomly being chosen for a mandatory test. You can't do that. You can't just pluck people out of a hat and go it's your lucky day. Pictures risks that is I. K- I, WanNa let her say Dvr it's your turn. You. From enough from a box. It's your. Yeah Nine No. That's not how it works case and everything else decontamination risks receiving a medication. Appropriate medical of a standards to be applied and most importantly no use of force. Now use of force agape that's under the by security at whereas I states and territories in all of this wherever attorney general's in all of this, where's the governor general on with the Federal Health Minister? Where are they in this equation nowhere to be seen alternatively noticing these actions. I. Think it's good for them to go and have about what their roles on the legislation. Stop. Yes Okay. So What can we do I'm telling here what we need to dirt. have been looking at these and racking my brain from every angle I'm doing vaccine class action full the influenza mandate. So they brought in that you have to be a vaccined with the flu to see a loved one or access your job. Now they said that that's because it reduces hospitalizations and get this. There's absolutely no evidence to that. The Cochrane. Review. Is Very clean. The hospitalization links to influence the vaccine is just non existent. The stats don't exist on that one I'm afraid. Stats Okay and I'll tell you what else is very interesting. Because I look again at their information, you know people get angry I'm talking their information on your keyboard warrior. No I'm not I'm. A. I'm a lawyer that's what we do. Wait keyboard more. True to shouldn't we research everything? Okay and that's a good lawyer who does that K? There is just six on influenza this era. Started almost close to zero deaths thirty, six I. think that last. But get this their own records say and qualify with very strong waiver which says. You cannot trust those statistics because of carbon. This saying you can't trust these districts because you trust them because the reality is that conflated the cases could be conflicted. What we see is actually influenza could be covered and what could be influenza. The really latest symptomatic when you shot more on the later levels that it could display differently. Okay. But in terms of the statistics and the reporting, what may actually be reported currently is actually influenza. And they recognize that now it's nice secret. Let's look at all the graphs. Yeah. Let's not let's not. Forget where get worried we. And get this if you look at all the stats from all the previous guess what ICU and hospitalizations are very season. This is not. As. Wherein UINTA VITAMIN D levels go. We're more likely to contract things. Okay and hospitalizations in ICU. Will fill up. And we've got the steps to show the imperatives of the last year. Why are we own? Twelve. Twenty. Where it guys? Actually going. That amount would one thousand. One hundred people that died cory. While we all this dramatization coming back to the definitions. What's the significant risk at all? I'm not saying this the stats are. Not the, one making this up. The stats are there to shark imperatives and come out with. Modeling and endured appropriate reactions. Start I'm doing that and I did that initially 'cause I was very concerned about the way that they brought the H. Kid directives very quickly. But the more I'm looking at this now that I realize that I'm working on that vaccine class action but the real and people say all is this an anti just anti backs. This is London antics issue. This is about human rights. This is about our rights to to to be defined as a risky. If we know that influence is not a lodge this year and it's been conflated with carbon, we need to apply it appropriately. There are risks with the fact that there are serious adverse reactions and people should have this recommendation, not a compulsion or a requirement. We know under the Law Utah require it unless it's a by security control odor or public health voter. Again. This is about process. It's not a bad off. Not. All vaccines are the same. Let's get that out of our heads just because something called is a vaccine doesn't mean all ministers of the same. We'll. All vaccines are the same. They have different risks. and. We have to be logical about that I'm not the one making this up the experts saying these their daughters citing. What I realize is we need to guard more my plan now and I'm getting no help and I'm getting more people on board. that. We need to look at a class action every citizen in this country. Class Action in relation to businesses being shut down in the inconsistencies that are being applied. Yeah. The next twelve, twenty people buntings are. Essential the virus doesn't attack essential businesses. Okay. But bindings use and so is united. So is. The largest stores OCCA- small cafes and businesses. All my God. This is all GonNa die. Die Caffeine. Is GonNa be but let's not make all. The local community to all individuals in the fruits and the shelves? Oh Yeah I've seen a lot of people touching the Ritz in my local show my. Kid Ourselves that we've had a full lockdown IDA. We've had a partial lockdown, but we haven't had a full look down. So let's not kid ourselves. You can't measure that stuff that stuff can't be measured in data because it's not stable. Not. Stable on that again, you don't just say all you are essential in non-essential define these things now. Defining it he's saying that lodge businesses are fine and small businesses are not. This is not employs. Businesses will be open to businesses. It'll be open to people for the mosque issue will be open to the travel detainment people have been detained and have been asked by the states to pay for their detainment. Quiz land asks its own people to pay you. For being detained coming from the country for from outside the country. Even have seen Tuesday detained. Will doesn't work that way under the loans. Okay. Does laws doesn't work that way? Caters laws must be struck at as part of the prices of a class action because we're saying they're inconsistent with the by Security Act. Inconsistent with with the the implied rights are being protected constitutionally by the security. You can't do that to people the by security XS if you do a by screened control order you the Commonwealth Paints. Doings they're letting the people pay. That's an outrage. This is not the way you handle things. This is not the way you handle business. So we have a class action. Be Launching that very. Logic class action with working. I sit on the influenza mandated a vaccine class action in that could potentially form part of the LACI want a k. but we're ready to go. We're ready to go with that one all arguments there and the arguments are the same. I've put my arguments publicly police guard for the law is the law it's meant to be shed. Who? Legal Opinion. Defend yourself now I'm very importantly. Daren't recommend even I. This is the lowest unlawful our prices under which we can go and seek a class action in the court. Can we do that through the coke you that collectively would not. Then be raid let stand up together and say processes must be followed a k. but I'm not saying encouraging own mandating or whatever. Thank to people breached the the the directives as they are because I understand that people have unbelievable and I understand that they could be exposing themselves to the brutality police or the brutality of of other people reacting around them. Encourage people to breach anything. What I'm encouraging is if you feel something is being wrong or done by incorrectly, we are raising these issues and I do believe one hundred percent. The laws that they're actually? Allegedly following are in contradiction with our. Public, Health X. and primarily inconsistent with scheme that should operate primarily this the biosecurity act. Okay. But if the price is through class action, the process is through coming together. And saying legally, we've got those prices we live in a lovely country this so much darkness at the moment, but there's a history of common law that has been fought by some very great minds in this nation. Okay History of beautiful indigenous women and indigenous men who fought to also have their voices heard in create prep laws in this country. Is a history of women. Lovely women I mean I know I should say mentor, of course this great judges and it's wonderful. Wonderful. People on the ground created some very, very important. There's some really good legislative writers in this country we also. To riders in this country, this is true we do. Yes. So a K.. Coming together, collectively I say that and I think you're right it's Faisal. We stand together in stand up. But if someone came to my house and said Molly you'll the lucky one week chosen you. What do I do do I submit or hell? Do I get past that? This is where it's important to join this class action. There's I'm getting hundreds of calls every day from around the country serene help may serene help me will I can help you by the class action that will do which will address every issue. Okay. That's what I'm GonNa roll that attaches quickly as possible. Okay. I'm not here I worry about people for them to say nine because I worry about more forceful things happening. Worry about fullest being used on them. So, of course, my advice would be in the main time when you don't have a voice that is actually saying to, you can come in hold the bat and for you go in. A cane. I can't do that to one hundred, thousand people. In this country who are upset what I can do is do a class action to represent one hundred, thousand people. And I can do that and prepare them and have people here and and people who show the patients and the courage to send. Before this is no longer about personal outcomes. That collective outcomes. We need to collect, stand up and say nor. We live in a good country in a democratic country we have laws he work well, sometimes some of these laws misinterpreted sometimes these laws are draconic Edrich, Odeon and they are inconsistent with other lords and we have great judicial processes judicial. Review and Commonwealth Common Law and talks and all sorts of things that can help us voice what we go through. That is difficult but we need to have the bravery to come forward and not be afraid K. smart class action will will because it's going to be. With a Lotta people, we're going to be working on forms I've got my team now I'm putting together my team, and actually I'm looking for full time consultants who are excellent administrators of ready to that a fabulous at for families to existing to that have expressed out really appreciate more expressions of interest. So people initially to do it on volunteer and then paid basis. So initially just that we can get over the the of getting the phone together and getting people to come through and so what I'm looking for out fantastic administrators. On a part time basis for up to four hours a day five days a week a that'd be rummaging through all the forms and and can contacting people and putting people in the right sub classes depending on their on on the impact that they have. The back across action of got. Opera complaint. Case slain has one hundred, fifty, one, hundred, fifty now. Offers nurses Australia's practice. You name it the whole look and they're all one hundred percent anonymous. One hundred percent anonymous and the reason why they have to be is because up pro target. Absolutely. Not Going on it is about the vaccine shoot. It's about the fact that there are serious adverse actions during get reported properly in this country K, they have a mandatory. Have any mandatory reporting and the TGI has only website all year you can come and reported here. But most of the time it's a coincidence. and. You have doctors trained in hospitals all nine, a white recognize that you've been injured. Correct. and. I've spoken to a lot of people. And this is a real problem. Beckstein injury is a real problem and there's short-term vaccine injury and there's long term and we need to stop lying about it. Let's stop lying about this. This is a real issue talk to a person who has been backseat injured, and then you know some of these people were vaccine till the cows, Kamar Most would. And then what the Hell is going on he, why am I having these reactions K. and I'm not talking here about small reactions I'm talking here about severe reactions and we don't have proper reporting systems. We don't have the data. Because proper report, proper data comes from proper reporting. You don't have upper reporting you don't collect the data. Simple doesn't look like you have a major problem if you're not collecting the answer your rate and also when you're when you're being guests lied about the data. I can win win the data slack Na all my God you think that's because of the Idiot. And you have doctors criticizing doctors. You should see when the slamming at each other it's the worst thing you can see. You all you are just anti. I'd. Should shut lined up something must happen to you. Take a pill. CARE. Chill. Pill. You might you know let's Let's consider some of these situation lift consider. Logically why are we being? So Oh, my God. So passionate about the vaccine company getting the millions. bursaries people don't have the benefits but. They've got this whole litany of soldiers. Vaccination soldiers. It isn't like that that tries. I'm not against maxine treat vaccine's each one of them separate. Sir I might have respect for some of the old attested vaccines but I don't have respect for some of the more modern vaccines with that are being rushed and let a Lion Corona vaccine allegedly gonNA come very quickly we. Showing people are getting really seek what is the agenda goodness me. Okay. There's a lot of question marks. and. You know people said we'll go. You're a conspiracy theories all you know what I've seen a thing or two in my life. Maybe what you've if you've seen what scene and you might understand people just that little bit Mo- yes soon. Have seen maybe you understand sorry hugging emotional because. It's been quite abortion Victorian to be honest. Because people are just hatred of each other and not listening. Not Listening to each other. You know hearing each other like respect each other. Someone. is saying to you not coming glaive. With facts they coming with evidence. Let's be rational year. Let rationality analogy and just because I'm crying doesn't mean I'm week. It means I feel for people around me. But we must feel for each other not hate each other. That's. Part of the plan. is to create hatred. Against each other. Marginal, today. Yeah. It's very emotional world that we're living in at the moment. Serene. It's nothing makes sense. There's no logic to anything that's happening Ross at the moment and. People. Just can't believe that people are so Unquestioning and complacent unjust quick to slot in, do whatever they tow it. Lillard shape they really are and it just blows. My mind that people will not question what's going on because it does not make safes United States doesn't make sense. We don't have to hate each other for it. this study when you quite studies and say, you know the mosques there's been randomized clinical trials that have shined that the masks, the club Moss operable, matic. The itself says that in their material, there's no high quality evidence for these. Okay. This comparative studies between the UP Ninety five mosques as well as the club's Mas as well as the surgical masks. You know there's issues around grieving and issues around. They all know oxygen now no impact w put it on for God's sake it doesn't require a genius. He my foot on a Moscow, not feel like I'm suffocating. Tell me that I'll come an idiot or something or I don't understand or that I don't know how to read. I know how to read I understand the information, the daughter even common people know how to read this inciting and people a Lotta emotions. To say it's it's an interference with yourself. A violation. That's what people are feeling, and then you have the rest of the community. All scared all we better do what the government says. going. Very cheerful yet. And then they get angry with you because you're confronting, they've seen it's called cognitive dissonance and that's why they get angry with you. Let's not get angry with each other lot hearing each other. When they say obsessional studies is a thing that says that close marks should be worn. Sorry. I'm not going to go for observational studies when I've got randomized clinical trials. Arrive. Yesterday was not good today. It's good. Not that's not how science works. All of a sudden you say that instead of playing the issues, they play the person. Your conspiracy theorists, that's not a response to my arguments my friend. Quoting. What we need facts. Gordon Studies I'm quoting you from their own websites I'm quoting from their own studies. I'm quoting you from independent exclusive. That's not me being a conspiracy theorist. May being logical. In rational. Scientific. Let. Each Other and not get in the nate emotions G. Want your old people to die. You're Hay Day to your old dodgy just wanted to die. Predicting People I'm all for, but we need to do it rationally we need to do a strategically emotional arguments not gonNA, get US anyway. We need to look at patterns we need to look this look. We need to look at what Marvis hasn't been isolated what the issues around that whether testing how do we deal with it and how do we prevent what kind of medicines work? What kind of medicines don't work? Constructive. Let's. Let's get the truth. Let's get the truthful look. It's because we're not being told the truth not violence short how to get sometimes is supported. US learning together about what might were. Not. Maybe there is no absolute truth. Maybe that's something that we develop as we go along I can we just get to notions of truth perceptions? Everyone has a perception. Cease. Things from their own window experience. Disregard each other. Dot Me to mock. Trying to provoke their minds. To. Think outside of the square little bit. Mean just because the mainstream media and the mainstream scientists and governments have told you something repeatedly. It doesn't mean it's the reality. It doesn't mean that there are no other perspectives. Mean that there are hundred points of view one incident can happen and you have one hundred people looking at and they will report it in one hundred different ways you. One hundred percent objective committee. But what we have this data, what we can make conclusions can do some research we can do randomized clinical trials. We can look at those standards. We've got these things to protect us from ourselves. That data correctly and lift from up with strategies. Of course, we should mitigate risk fiance and there's denial in here. Nihilism. And Rational Zuri. Ask questions. They can. Ask. Yeah it's. Just, win win a business, for instance. Says that you have to either wear a mouse to come into the store owner pay by Card you cannot our cash. Is. How they goal is that and is there anything we can do about that? I think you know the problem is like. Multiple layers of people telling other multiple as and people. Threat isn't also threats he kept waiting it. You got. Of, the common people at the bottom of the ones who are as a milder. Okay. Go onto the the the the the consumers I mean. Retailers only they hanks tied. We will find you. A. Shopping and I WANNA sit down the earners coming up leave leave. Leave. You know and so I'd have Blaine. But what I do say is this. Up Be counted. If all the businesses. All the businesses are not afraid either. Serious problems. Some serious social issues meant. Side domestic violence increase of. The. Style trafficking let's call it out for. Thousand Girls Gone missing every year from residential age kit and will. They traffic in this country. Why do we not hear about that? Will. In Nissenbaum. Businesses will fail to. Again say that again. Sorry. Seems to be breaking up a little bit Saran here. Can you hear me now? Can you hear me always allow? I think. We've lost connection. This rain. Have, you got a I. got you. I've got you here. So you're saying that yeah, I can hear you. Yes. Yes Miss. Can you hear me? Yes. So this a lot of darkness that's happening behind the scenes A. K. Every thirty seconds, a child goes missing in the world. Every city virus swelled. Provider. And that's a fact. It's not a contingent. It's not dispute. Horrible and with these shutdowns in lockdown with businesses closing and families the stresses, and they can't even imagine how many more people will die and how many people dying already from suicide. Yes it has increased. Kissed the explicit about statistics. Talk about it. Let's line it up. Now it's okay you five thousand die from suicide, but not a cave one, hundred and five here. Now, how does that work? They're not saying the five thousand dollars suicide but I'm saying that statistically heaps dying and there is actually a deep correlation now between what is going to go on with his stick shutdowns that are unnecessary deal with virus without complete shutdowns in the way that they've done it. and. Who comes up with these unscientific principles at twenty people he ten people he left people who can handle he done do these dungy right he? GET COME ON KISCO DOWN bullies. What's the screens? Finger in in the town has been. Screened Okay we'll talk about surface transferral. Exactly. Bananas Just Look in the bananas. Oh. My God everyone stops it traumas. But in any case where who says these? Scientific Principles. They're a top experts with blown out of the water aspects of social distancing and These. Live D-. Selective as shutdowns. Okay. Rules that they come back with a K. in if things can happen on in his Senate, things don't happen when you're essentially doing things. Well, things will happen when you non essentially doing this can consistent. Is Illogical. Are you want to apply things apply from a scientific perspective and don't just listen to to People Neil Ferguson? I just listened to one person. In the world and he's remodeling has me completely out of the water and people get really upset nine there was muddling. And unfortunately. The government plays onto that fear of individuals is David almost troll more or or a Stockholm Syndrome in terms of just people's vulnerability. Okay. An end people listening to authority. We've been trained very well as a society to listen to authority. It's been happening very well since Edward Benes segments for. Sigmund. Freud's nephew got his hands on private companies. K.. It's been done very well. He's the one that changed the word propaganda to public relations CH-. Doesn't does doesn't do propaganda anymore it does public relations. Now and If you. Now you're stream, and if you very well read and if you understand human psychology and behavior, you can see patents developing historically and we're now at a real crossroads in terms of the serpent of our leadership, our leadership is served by private interests use. Scholarly, it has been fully served. A K by private interests. You know you don't know where the public heads in whether private starts. knx That's true. Very dangerous. When you're talking about executive decision makers, it's very dangerous when you have these affiliations political parties will have funders from the mining, own all sorts of things. While, mining. Construction no-one hands-off. Don't. Nobody touched the. Young. All. Say Yeah not the mining conglomerate. That's Is Understand. What's going on wake up wake up. Question listen, understand, observe, and alarmed compaign get your statistics get your data start opening up horizon Dombi offended when someone presents you something that Gets. You Ole like your your viewpoint of the world that is all challenges. Roses in you know the world is that we really got to understand is a lot of risks around us. And we need to understand classified risk. A and understand how to measure. We have got will go would sign. Squalor. Data Collection. Morris's we. Can Or thanks right. I'm one of the the biggest. Of what's coming through from out watches tonight is how people support you. For. A. What I need is people to stand up. So when I'm ready to put this out and I'm working with my team literally went not sleeping. This. I have to angels that have come in my life, Melissa and Sandy. And you know and they've been real godsend to make you know because they've just been such a lovely lovely. He pulled on and they've been doing this for free. We're not doing it like we just WanNa stop this. Yes Agreement everything going forward we're asking for contributions. Now, if we open it up too far more people less contributions are going to be far less if we all put it together to get the experts to get the top barristers unit to get all of that it mean that we all put in a little to get a locked in our. All of what I want is simply people to come on board done. Be Afraid Come on board together we will make a difference. Lovely and how do we do that? How do we come on board? I'm going to be releasing that information next Monday cheese stay. We'll have all of our phones we'll have all agreements will have all of our strategy set out. You know we've already got that for our wonderful influenza mandate, group K. and we really trial anticipated. So that's been wonderful that we've gathered the people in the you know we've trialed how we run a good class action that was in a smaller group of people, but we've obviously got the NAT together and we moved them to the next phase. So it's given US lynchings on have to move in a bit of direction. So now we much more prepared to go to the next stage in our and yeah and or join. Boy. Don't be afraid. Your side pocket all the way, and let's do this again. Lovely. So they go to your web page yet they go to my web page, they go to my facebook and I'll share it with with the House party as well, and we have people that I know, and so it will be spread everywhere and maybe even if you've got a list of people who are on that, not be shared with them as well. Okay right So I have see. Anybody. Is Interested in the meantime A. Sin Their email address. I'd be happy to collide anyone who wants to send their email address to me and pass it onto serene or contact your facebook or your. Your web page. We'll certainly share your information on on our page facebook console on because you know for me personally I think. we have. a couple of issues that are about to change mankind. Yes, and that scares me. Yes. it really scares, Smith rocks my world. It's so serious. So. We do need to stand up. We need to wake up people wake out, stand up and stand to give up because to give up. With site, we can make change for humanity because this is not a bad individuals. This is about the human rights. Let's see. If beautiful absolutely mary touching and united comes from a little voice them. I can see. From. Beautiful Window is of wisdom. And I think you know I just I closed my eyes at night and I just put out a beautiful potato. that. Everyone is safe even though is that I don't like. I found that we can. Work together to. Lease TRAUMAS that have been inbuilt Against, each other would be set up to be against each other. When we need to just be heard and understood. and. Really understand that we have the opportunity to not be afraid of guys that drew seek to limit us in slave encaptures whatever you wanNA call it on. Dominate US bully us. Tell us that we don't have a voice. We have a voice we all deserve to be headed. I have tried a have some trust remaining in the judiciary. I do I think that they're also being impacted these judges are also being impacted. Okay and I do believe that if we put them that at least we can get the government to have a look at it. Okay. Because we've got very very powerful evidence. He you know, and let's test it out in court because I'm confident. When you test this ad in court, what the result will be. I'm confident. Well I'm confident that there's going to be an awful lot of people right behind juicery. Certainly be one of them gift. Such a delight honestly thing here's the rain ahead. We can get you back again because. I think you have so much to offer us. Title. Listening to you and feeling your passion and. Knowing that you on the right track because people don't stop to stand up and do something we are lost. We are. We. Society like. How I just want logic. Logic one. Rationale. You know I want citizenship. A want package the patient you know I want people to be heard. I'm not dismissing the other side. Okay but they also must dismiss them. They can't be bullied in this. You know we have to let go of our power tripping me we have to let go of the need that we've been trained to compete with each other. Operate with each other and inspire each other in go. Hey let's really look at what signs means scientists not a dog month. It's become a dogma. Become a political tool the. Win Doctors are afraid to speak out. The problem is the problem when scientists are afraid to speak. The problem if the something wrong definitely something. Okay on that Nashi Serena I. Thank you. Thank you very very much for joining us and. We should good nice and go bliss and God citied in your work. We'll stay lovely and especially on a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you, sir. Thank you. Nice. Could not everyone thank you for joining us. A hug you've. Gained as much as I have from this talk with Sarah. Thank. You good night. I. Hope You have enjoyed listening to this most energetic episode of the Hep News podcast check out the episode notes on our website at www dot L. strategy of party Dot Com Dada you for links to how you can join serene in her campaigns. And on the website, you might look for the join US links to become a member and help us build a better and healthier Australia goodbye for now.
In defence of the AUKUS alliance, and the generation who inherit the fallout from COVID
"This is an abc podcast. Hello there and welcome to between the lines on air online. Ovalles uribe. ac listen this. Is tom switzer. And it's always great to have you company now later on in the show the generation who will inherit the extraordinary fallout from the cova crisis. Stay tuned for my discussion with to future leaders. Just how do they see the handling of the pandemic. And what do they see as the path to recovery. But i the new alliance with the us. Well the big news last week that the us will share a sensitive nuclear submarine technology with australia. That's attracted its fair. Share of critics australia. Where told is out of touch with idea which is not my choice about the. Us china dilemma. According to the critics the orcas agreement constitutes a dramatic loss of sovereignty. Because it would rob australia of freedom of choice in a future conflict where the. Us goes to war moreover in any western pacific conflict. The us could not defeat china. That's what we're tall so to address these criticisms. Let's he from one of australia's leading defense strategists payday jennings has been executive director of the australian strategic policy institute in camera for nearly a decade. He's a former deputy secretary for strategy in the defense department and achieve staff to the minister for defence pater. Welcome back to the show. Tom thank you a pleasure to be here now. I your thoughts on the orcas agreement. I think this is one of the most important pieces of international alliance building that we've seen for a generation or two it's a restatement of american strategic power and purpose in the indo pacific region It's a new vehicle australia to lift. Its game militarily. And it even provides a way for the british to redefine their foreign policy interests. Post breaks at that. That's quite a powerful combination of countries and forces working together so i don't think we should underestimate the significance of this new orchestra agreement. It's significant no question about that. But let's deal with the criticisms this paul creating the former prime minister. Now he says the agreement constitutes in his words a dramatic loss of australian sovereignty. And that's because according to catering. It would rob australia of freedom of choice in a future conflict where the. Us goes to war. How would you respond to pocketing. I just think that's absolute nonsense. I do not understand how giving yourself more military capability which is what august will do amounts to a loss of sovereignty and locating a would among old prime ministers understand that in fact simply because you buy military equipment from the united sites as he did does not undermine your capacity to make independent decisions. You know. I think it's quite funny trombone. Former prime ministers always assume that only they could make deweiss decisions handed olis' existence a fool's game too damn their country to military stupidity that simply not the case Australian governments will always retain the capacity to make judgments about win and wait. I go to war. But if they have have to do that chile you wanted you. Want them to make that decision. But the strongest defense force that our budget combined. Okay canings not alone. He's another former prime minister. This is malcolm fries rickles. He was a liberal but he made similar observations about a camera getting too close to the americans. Now he's risa just before he died in two thousand fifteen people do not realize the extent to which we have been entwined in united states policy in the last fifteen or twenty years at a time when the cold war is over. The united states is now in the process of establishing a new cold war in the pacific military policies failed in vietnam fairly in iraq fairly in afghanistan. The middle east is a mess and leaving all that behind. They say the shift their forces to the western pacific. We are part of this world. And we wanted to be pat of america's future mistakes in this region but as the government being frank with australians saying where it might lead saying that we're going to be asked to pay for a lot of it's america trying to ties into the policy of containment which is about the most dangerous position the strata could possibly be in that was former prime minister. Malcolm phrases last testament that was on the keys. One plus one in two thousand. Fifteen peter jennings. We'll tell never. Never forget that malcolm fraser and pull catching for that matter. Assiduously worked to strengthen the american alliance when they were prime ministers. And in the case of malcolm fraser. of course i'm was An aggressive Called wolf prime minister eager to fight the russians after the invasion of afghanistan. Down to the last american you know. I think it's just a striking. How full prime ministers often seem to once they lose the discipline of being briefed body national security establishment revert back to talk of undergraduate thinking about foreign policy. When fraser was speaking in twenty fifteen what what new cold war that. That was absolutely the high point of american and chinese integration in terms of the strength of their economies trading together And even in that period of time. Since then i don't believe the region is got to a point where we have a cold war. We certainly have significant tensions between the united states and china and it could move in that direction but again i think there is always a floor on the part of over prime ministers to think that i need i could make wise decisions and all those successes fools damning their own countries to silly military choices in reality. It's not the case And certainly you could hardly find a stronger supporter of the us aligns when he wasn't powder then malcolm price of our. We backing the losing. Saudi keating says that in western pacific conflict the us and this is an america that has had its credibility and prestige badly damaged in the wake of those post. Nine eleven wars in iraq afghanistan libya. This is katie's point. Fraser would agree with him. The us would have little chance against china with its supply chains to strained so as camera backing the wrong hosie cameras for the most part backing. Its own strategic interests which is not to find itself becoming subservient to a dominant china. I don't believe that there are many australians. That would want that outcome. And therefore what we need to do is find ways where we can push back. Raise the cost to china thinking that it can easily get away with military adventurism in indo end up pacific and obviously essential part of being able to rise costs to ensure that the united states reminds engage. It's it's way too early to write the americans off as being somehow incapable of dealing with the might of this the people's liberation army You know america is still father single largest military spender on the planet more side than the next dozen or so countries combined. It has more capacity to project force with its eleven carrier battlegroups than any other country in the world and america has certainly when push comes to shove capacity to use that military power when it feels it has no options to so writing them off. It's way too early It was way too early to write them off with malcolm. Fraser did way too early to write them off. When paul keating as this is just wishful thinking in my view what about us staying power and not so much today in twenty twenty one but in the knicks. Dick idol to sam roggeveen from the lowy institute is among others. Their argument is that america's serious domestic troubles means that washington this is. The argument is bound to reorder priorities and fiber of domestic affairs and place lists emphasis on not just the persian gulf theater and the european theater but also east asia will start. Tom in two questions we've gone from. America is going to lead us to war. Indo pacific to america is going to be inward-looking and simply hasn't got the staying power to be hitting now which. Which isn't my friend account paradoxes in well. It's not a paradox. It's just confused thinking on the part of the could've been champion. So i mean just let me tell you. America goes through ups and downs. People think that america is facing tough times at the moment because of internal divisions in. What's happened in afghanistan but you think back exactly fifty years and they were significant problems in sought the united states to the civil rights movement and due to their experience in vietnam and yet america rebounded from that it is a country with infinite capacity to reinvent itself with a tremendous ability to put itself at the next stage the next ford points of growth and productivity again. I'd just make the point. It's way too early to write off the americans. My guess is peter jennings. He's executive director of the australian strategic policy institute in camera now. He's another criticism of the orcas agreement. This is the news. Hugh watt lock. You another prominent defense strategist here. He is on the abc's seven thirty. The fact is that most other countries in asia. Don't our approach in america's oppression to china. So i think in south east asia and for that matter further north. They'll be a lot of people who look at this. They might complain about it out loud but look at it and see it as a negative development because it further entrenches the idea. We've got a new cold war. In asia with america on the one side and shot her on the other. They stuck in the middle. I don't wanna choose. They say australia has made a choice. That's hugh watt on the abc. Seven thirty paid up. Isn't it true that you know why cameras seems to be at least more outspoken in its support for the us security alliance whereas other states in the region sitting on the fence. That's she watch argument. Your response i think. There's a difference between the language that some countries use and and the underlying strategic concerns that they have You know there's no question that australia. Perhaps uniquely in the region speaks in a very frank way which is part of our national character. We would like to think. But i can tell you that japan for example is a country which is equally concerned if not more than australia about the growing aggressiveness of china india likewise and for that matter tom many countries in southeast as well although they tend to be less likely to say that i utterly refuse it so that they would be many people genuinely thinking in south east asia that the orchestra agreement is driving australia towards promoting some sort of cold. War situation in the region Those countries for the most part whilst they might want to be the good cop in in the region. They perfectly happy for australia to be the bad cop in the region and actually to be inc strengthening our military capabilities and talking openly about the aggression china's presenting to those to those very countries. You know i didn't recall. Many countries in southeast asia complaining about how china was driving the region to a cold war when china was militarizing islands in the south china sea between twenty fourteen in two sixteen. But they were all. I can assure you deeply concerned by that development so you have to have a bit of a discount factor between the language that you get from some politicians from some media commentators in the region and indeed what in their heart of hearts asian strategic plan is a thinking. They're all concerned about china right now. Okay one final criticism will often. He is the optics the anglosphere. Now this is a yuanjiang. She's the director of ain. Us china policy center. This was on the abc's pm last week with this agreement and under the of government generally were looking more to the west and angles the partners. Much more it's almost like we're back to seeking security from asia rather than security ain in asia where not putting as much effort into broadening deepening. Our relationship with other countries in the asian region but jiang for my new on the abc's pm. peter jennings. Is it true to say that. Australia is not really engaged. With many countries in the region in response to china. Now that's a ridiculous comments. I mean that may be true all the orchestra agreement. That was great last week. But what about the quad. Which is about one of the least anglo very things you could point to. it's Bringing together australia. The us japan and india Strategy continues to actively engage with many many countries in the region seeking to build security. A disappointment for me is that as ian has turned out to be such a weak instrument when it comes to actually looking after the security of the southeast asian region you know we are in this year on the twenty fifth anniversary of as he and seeking to negotiate a code of conduct with china about its operations in the south china sea twenty-five years tom and i have been unable to negotiate a basic document that would Design have china would interact with the the the countries of southeast asia In the absence of the indo pacific region being able to Grouped together strongly to protect the interests of the region in the way that night does for example. It's hardly surprising that australia should be reaching to It's too historically closest allies. The united states in the k. It's only those countries which can provide a strategy with the capacity to lift on navy to the level of having nuclear propelled submarine and it's also a reflection of our history which i don't think we should repudiate simply because we also put a lot of effort into engaging with with countries in our region so again i think we have seen a lot of convenient excuses which will tell you that the americans too strong. The americans a two-week straight his too bellicose in the region. Australia's looking too much out of the region for our support. I think all of these things are kind. Conduct debating points. You know at the end of the day. What australia seeking to do with orcas with osmond With the quad arrangements with defense agreement with countries in the region we are trying to bolster regional security in ways which lift the price of china's going to military conflict for example. I've been taiwan to to high level to a level where beijing will simply say. No this is not worth it. That's i think frankly the most useful contribution a strategy can make not only fruits. I'm peace and security But for the peace and security of the indo pacific region as a halt paid as always great to have you on our in its on. Thanks for having me on. Jennings is executive director of the australian strategic policy institute in cambridge. This is between the lines with tom. Switzer well now. The most intriguing aspect of the past eighteen months is the good grades shown by younger generations of australians. It's the who have sacrificed their way of loft to protect their elders. However as the scale of that cost becomes a parent will this goodwill evaporated after all younger generations will end up. Very most of the cost of covered. So how do young australian see the handling of the pandemic. Now if you have children or grandchildren what am i thinking. We're delighted to hear from two australians. Who are at the very early stages in the corporate workplace. Kate jackson is a paralegal at kings will. Prince lawyers who specialize in immigration law is currently completing piranhas and a fellowship at the gilbert and tobin center of public law. That's at the university of new south. Wales holiday aci getting very good indeed. Unbelie not iran. Jane graduated from macquarie university last year. Andre is now based at minter ellison in sydney angelie. How are you good things. It's great to be here tom. Kite start with you. Can you tell us about your experience of the pandemic. yes. I think. I've been pretty lucky. In general i've been able to say my family short of lockdowns. They all live in sydney as well. And i've been at university studying the whole time. I think the most unique aspect of my experience during carved was is actually are the sees the beginning of january twenty twenty and wiz coming harm riot as we became aware of the nineteen. So i think just that sought contrast that the day that i flew hiring was kind of win. Airports starting to wear hazmat suits up in really shop perspective. But other than that. I think the. I've been really privileged. I just obviously haven't been able to see any friends or family in the possibly months which has been really difficult. Join the club and of course one of the big issues when we talk about our experiences of the pandemic is those tensions between federal and state governments during this crosses unruly. How do you think governments generally have managed the pandemic. I think when we look at the response from the state and federal approach. We've seen a really big shift in my opinion between the balance of power so The pandemic has really sharing that state. Premiers the steer is of the nation's fates we've seen their response to adopting this agenda big-spending interventionism and essentially relegating financial responsibility to the federal government Throughout the pandemic on. I personally looked at scott. Morrison felt that he's role has been reduced in all of this imerys. Unable to control the states need jack border closures. erosions civil liberties even these disproportionate lockdowns that are incurring significant social and economic costs. And there's no way for him to really override state based decisions. An overall. I think in times of the state and federal approach. There's been less cohesion. I think Less clearcut decisions when it comes to a national road map or plan out a virus. And i think that really brings a lot of concern to me in the way that the governor has responded in the mismanagement related to it only a few times in history has one event affected every aspect of our national law at you think of the spanish flu in nineteen eighteen nineteen nineteen world war one world war two. The great depression is pretty rare. Case how will you think. Governments have responded to this crisis. Yes so. I think the first thing to note acknowledge kind of as you're saying. It is a really unique circumstance. So there's a really steep learning curve at the beginning of the pandemic. I think it's understandable. In some circumstances that federal or state governments might make what we look on with hindsight as mistakes. But i think something that i found really disappointing. Coming out of this is that we haven't had a clear roadmap in it feels like news housewives for example. Only really these clear idea of what al vaccination plan was going to be and how we were going to kind of manage carbon once. That was the new outbreak that of really significant health risk And i even his. Julie was saying perhaps there. There has been scott. Morrison has been relegated somewhat through growth. Of state powell. But i think that's also his fault. He had the opportunity you know we know. In june twenty twenty to negotiate full vaccine from fiso that would have arrived by the end of twenty twenty three his iron in action and fail failures to take meaningful leadership roles that he has kind of lost that legitimacy that that power to command unbelie wall concerns. Do you have about the the approach taken during the past eighteen months. I think what particularly concerns me is not only the lack of proportionality in the responses to pandemic measures but in particular the prolonged lockdowns which have become somewhat of a new normal in my opinion while some restrictions. I believe in needed to cut hail the spread of the carpet. Nineteen bars particularly among more vulnerable populations what we are seeing a really hot lockdowns being imposed even when the hospitalization rates are relatively learn. And i say this is a problem. In the fact that it's abolishing fundamental freedoms and rights inflicting really really big social and economic costs and that really undermines the roots of a healthy democracy. And someone in my early twenties. I'm concerned about how these prolonged lockdowns impacting upon young people particularly in the education. Your kids effacing loss. Time and learning Disengagement from the classroom and that could really translate into big gaps in literacy or the numeracy rates laid down the track. I was in my final year of university. When the fest Slate of lockdowns. Hit and i saw students were missing out on opportunities for practical training network in international work and study which really vital for more promote well rounded education and global competitiveness in the job market and even within the domestic dermane. You say a lot of students doing coursework in medicine teaching or nursing in that they're not able to complete practical aspects of degree. Which would translate to potentially delay crease dots or difficulty entering. The mock would even just setbacks early in employment which is very problematic if you just tuned in your in our in. This is tom. Switzer my guests. Kate jackson and angelique nadarajah jain and we're addressing. The covert fallout the younger generations. Younger generations of australians. How they see the pandemic and the government's response to the crisis. Now there's been a lot of criticism level that the ineffective delivery of important information about restrictions health services vaccines. Let's he from the queensland chief health officer is she's going blind for the slow take-up of the astrazeneca vaccine. We've had very few deaths due to cove at nineteen on in australia in people under the age of fifty. What terrible that. I first eighteen year old in queensland dies related to this pandemic die because that was dr jeanette young this at a time when we are being told to get vaccinated case do you think the damage of the delta virus could have been lessened with better messaging. Yeah i definitely agree. I think it is a really tricky line to walk. You don't want to encourage people to take vaccines that perhaps during have good efficacy in other side effects. But i feel like it took a good tremont softer. Those statements were made to really get good messaging breaking down the percentage of risk and even just as a puzzle example for my own life. I actually got it in by a dog in guatemala and had to get a rabies vaccination. Yeah in a very small regional health clinic and i was. I was really anxious about receiving that vaccination. I didn't know much about the healthcare system in guatemala but to me. It's a no brainer. It was do. I want to potentially contract rabies old. Do i want to receive this vaccination. I think that's the exact same situation with carbon vaccines like the stock risks and harms. Need to be really light out. But i think even beyond the individual harm you also need to think about the social good. I would feel so incredibly. Oh fool Knowing that if i contracted carve it. I had the potential to spread to the community. Oh to my family. My grandparents. And i think that was the messaging that come out from the very beginning and it would have potentially avoided the more recent delta outbreaks okay. Well let's address the broader into generational issues arising from the pandemic perhaps being overlooked geeta the pandemic until i. What should we be focused. What should policymakers political leaders. What should they be focused on as we emerge out of the pandemic. Tom i think two particular things really come to mind on one of them. Being the corona virus debt that has been incurred and the second being housing affordability. Which is i think very much key concern for my generation so my concern is how we going to repay all of this excessive spending the successive borrowing and what about housing affordability. Yeah with housing. Affordability is well. I think a of my generation has become disillusioned by the exorbitant price of partnership And i think in the longer time we we need to think about how we can cut back on things like planning and zoning restrictions Reducing the cost of land use development and opening up more land to buys. Because i think that too many people often blame tax concessions and interest rights which by the way are currently at an old time learning a high house prices when one of the biggest culprits is planning so ensuring that we have Strong measures in place to ensure that we can not mouland will be very important as a purse to band aid solutions that we currently have to the unavoidable issue. So what keeps you up. Let it not as we emerge out of the pandemic. yes so. I think short term. I would actually disagree with angie. I think obviously we should be concerned with australia's debt bought from my perspective short-term we should be much more concerned with people staying harm and if that means that we have to have an increasing government spending that is a worthwhile trade off. Because i think that you know even as we say that carbon continues to spread Even though they're very strict lockdowns that's because paypal invulnerable economic situations a forced to choose between maybe having a bit of a full throat. Probably not thinking. They have carted And they're forced to choose between our. Should they go to work in that situation or should they not make any money that day so i think if anything we should be increasing out spending to support people who are in vulnerable situations i think the second thing Perhaps not through a strictly carved lens but we can take things that we have learnt from carded and flexibilities in the workplace or in Social welfare programs that have been adopted and then apply the moving forward. I think it's been at the beginning of the pandemic we saw that There was increased housing availability for people who will homeless on. That was because we wanted to prevent them from contracting. But if we can do that under it. I don't understand why we can't do that. Long-tem kate unbelie a lovely exchange between future ladies. Thanks so much for being on our in no problem. Thanks so much for having me. Thanks so much tom. Kate jackson is a paralegal at king's law. Prince lawyers and unruly nadarajah. Jain is a graduate lawyer at minto realism. Well that's it for the wake and remember to hear this past episodes including last week's tribute to neville bona nations first aboriginal parliamentarian. Just go to abc dot net dot edu slash aaron and follow the prompts to between the lines. Or of course you can just go to the listen app. Waken download us for free. Or wherever you get your shows online on tom switzer. And thanks for listening. You've been listening to an abc podcast. Discover more great. Abc podcasts live radio and exclusives on the abc listen app.
"If he back flipped any hotter there would be spinal damage this week on. Download this shire. How subscription service. Only fans will famous with adult content. Yes consider this. Your warning ended up doing a drastic about-face within dives plus australia has some new spy and digital surveillance. Laws will look into them and apple bax down in a big way but also celebrating ten years of executive tim cook because he actually gone in the last decade that this guy to wake in media technology and culture by name is pernille. Welcome to down my bizarre. Yes and david is a brand new episode of download. This shy joining us this week. John saad creative on yoked. welcome back. thanks it's good to be here. I'll be digitally is the only way any of us are anywhere at the moment and alongside digitally john i slide law we have. Reo bogle analyst at the australian strategic policy institute. Welcome back to the program. Hi mark all right. We've got a lot to work through this week but first up only flip is my nickname for this story. A few listening last week we were talking about how the subscription platform only fans was planning on removing very adult content from its platform jonah and then. They flipped what happened. I think the big thing with early fans only flip which i actually think he's a very good name is that they kind of did do a one eighty on themselves when they basically said that they were going to get rid of all sexually explicit photos and videos from from october which is quite soon and then turned around and said actually know where really inclusive and we caught a stat for all about creators. I think there's two things happening here. One is that the is themselves who actually have quite a little leverage here was starting to vote with their fate and moving away from the platform which obviously devalued the platform itself. And the other was. I guess they conversations with the financial providers and the banks who were kind of forcing them into this position. The really made them. Maybe think twice about how they were going about it area. Were you surprised at the sudden back when i was a little. I mean. let's be clear they have this suspending a decision which isn't like a complete abandonment. The decision so i know that a lot of create is on the app people in the six where community and not entirely confident that this policy of getting rid of sexually explicit material won't be back sometime in the future. If they of ign out whatever's going on here it's interesting. there's still quite a bit of. He said she said about this story. So i like the head of our fans blamed the banks for the reason why they needed to get rid of sexually explicit material suggesting that some of the banking providers were making it hard to purchase transactions linked to sexually explicit material and. This is definitely like an old story. They've been a lot of instances where technology products providers have abandoned sexually explicit material. Even where they've made their name on it. You might think of tumbler. I mean when was the last time we talked about tumbler. Probably around the time. They got rid of all their content. Because i would have been a news story that we would have talked about exactly exactly so when platform has created a name for itself credit. An audience created a create a community based on one type of material and abandons it because of pressure from payment providers who are in. Turn getting pressure from a number of different lobby groups and advocacy groups. It's a pretty missy situation. I don't think the story is quite done yet. So how do you think it'll play out on. You think i will have to revert back to their original plan. Paps people paying less attention. Because i kind of the once the uses of up prison once. I don't think there's much to stop them from doing it again. Given it's kind of demonstrated they power collectively. Yeah i think. That's really true. And i also think it's interesting to me. That only fans is fighting back as a as a company and that they are going off to like area was saying jpmorgan chase and saying like you close the accounts of sex work as a where a business support sex workers that was really not really part of their rhetoric tonight. So i think they are realizing that they use a really valuable to them and they just need to go with that. There is a big question. Here that i think is worth discussing which is like what is only fans if you take away the sex work ave like these pockets of other content that does exist on that platform the table on paying enough attention to that. Perhaps that company looking to invest in kind of broadened. The definition of i guess what people think of when they think of only fence. Well i'm sure. Only fans would love a greater diversity of content on their platform and they do sort of promote that angle that they have all kinds of different content creators. you know food channels crafts all kinds of other things. But let's be honest. The reason why we know about only fans at all is because of the labor of adult performers sex workers and others that is literally the only reason. We're talking about early fence today to it away from that when they have not managed to attract other types of craters to the app i think is a risky proposition. And probably why they push back. We'll or at least appear to be pushing back against some of these payment providers and their rules. I mean it's an interesting one. Because i don't really see how only fans can play in the water content space. There are so many significant challenges may not lace youtube. I mean as sort of king of all it surveys. It would be pretty hard to cut into that sort of area. Even though on the fence does of course offer that kind of subscription model which a lot of people have appreciated. I think it's pretty. Yeah they'd have a tough road ahead of them to define themselves by content other than sexually explicit material. It's an either or john. I mean like are we at a stage in culture way. That community can be vibrant and well-supported but they can also be a huge community of like professional crofters on the fans or is it once you become known for adult content. You cannot be known for anything else. I don't think that's necessarily true. I mean i look at something like take talk which i think had a particular stigma attached to it for a very long time always for teenagers off. The people doing stunts. It's for dance moves and look how that's kind of blossomed and become its own thing. I think one can support the other. I'm not necessarily sure that you can pitch hall something. Obviously i think adult content comes with its own kind of halo effect. That sometimes rubs off on other things. But i don't think in any way it has to necessarily just settled continente concert others in fact one could support the other. What is wrong with only fans being defined by sexually explicit material it is in fact a booming industry multibillion dollar industry globally and in many cases is legal content. I mean here in australia. A lot of the six weapons using the platform are performing entirely legal labor. There is a kind of puritanical. Sort of reaction here. I think from a lot of the banking sector and and platforms. That don't want to be defined by this content but only fans has the reason it has about the value of that it does. I think it's cut of sales is projected to be to be about two point. Five billion by twenty twenty two. That's off the back of its content creators which are by and large people creating adult content and to dismiss that. I think is a bit well dismissive and a bit. Yeah i guess puritanical again to say the same thing. This still the stigma around six where six material even though it is a very popular kind of content and in often entirely illegal one even in the wider context of adult content. It's got to be rid lodge one of the more ethical organizations because you know one of the biggest issues and i think i mentioned this in spouses and one of the biggest issues with something. Like porn hub is a lot of the content on there is is ripped from paid services pay performance. They get no sort of money back from them. It's you know it's done an enormous. It's had a devastating impact on the adult content industry in general whereas we only fans it's literally a platform where people do work and they get directly paid for the work and on the fence clips the ticket on the way through it's like comparative to the platforms of adult content. It's got to be one of the more ethical ones out there. What do you think jenner. Yeah i think that's definitely true. And i think some of the earlier adopters of fans from what i was rating actually pulling stars who are realizing what you were saying. They were getting ripped off by these lodge services who were kind of going like. Oh it's not our responsibility we don't have to take any action on it and then going. Oh wait a second. I can actually monetize my material and i can have full control of my product. My output and. I do think that that's really important and often forgotten when we are talking about adult content. Is that areas right. We have got this like really like typical puritanical streak happening where people are just assuming that the internet is for porn and like not to quote avenue q. but it is download the ease. What you listening to it. Easier god to the week in media technology and culture mock fennell. Is my name our guest this week. John assad creative on yoked and aerial bogle analyst at australian strategic policy institute and former prime ministers like kevin rod and tiny abbott about to be spied on by zero under legislation that was pushed through parliament in the last couple of days. Area introduced me to the foreign intelligence amendment bill. Two very sixty title very sixty title. Yes so that. Sort of idea. Around with a kevin rod and tony abbott could be spied on by asia was raised by the independent senator. Rex patrie often a critic of surveillance bills like these basically. The bill amends the telecommunications in deceptions laws and enables as you to apply for warrants to obtain intelligence from foreign communications even if that results in the incidental quote unquote interception of domestic communications. So currently is your is not allowed to intercept any domestic. Communications will at least until this bill was passed last week. I guess the issue here. And what is your has claimed. Is that when you're trying to intercept communications. It's it's hard to distinguish sometimes between foreign and domestic. Will there might be some expert. Exchange between the turn. But what senator patrick was talking about with this kevin rod and tony abbott angle is that those true Former prime ministers are both registered on the foreign influence transparency scheme off fits and hayes suggest title very catchy title. Yes he suggested that you know say take turns abbott. He's a registered as an unpaid adviser to the uk. Board of trade. And he wanted whether the minister could be spied on by the intelligence services. You know having this like foreign and domestic communications maybe around foreign influence. I think that was kind of dismissed by the home affairs. Spokesperson claiming that would be sort of warrant thresholds. But it's one of a sort of bundle of bills that were poss- recently. I think with a lot less scrutiny than you might desire for something of significance the parliamentary joint committee on intelligence and security. They reviewed the bill. But they didn't really hear from any civil society on the from agencies. And i was passed very very quickly to complaints of a range of different and independent senators and impey's there is a very lively question in there as to. What is the appropriate level of transparency. John as a as a tax payer if nothing else. What's the level of transparency. You would want from bills like this look. It's a difficult one. I'm also a bit worried. About how fast. It was paused. I mean i read something that i think. It was like three hours and the cross bench. Got it for like forty five minutes like this is a huge bill. They should be a lot more scrutiny happening but as a tax payer as attacks by i think what what i worry about. Is that what. People don't have oversight into how this process is pushed through parliament. It means the time it actually becomes law enshrines into law. It's a bit light in the pace and it means a lot of these things are kind of taken out of our hands. I think particularly when when we're talking about like how much information do you want agencies as yohe et cetera. Have it does really vary. And i think the guys of terrorism which is kind of brought up in some of the other bills that would probably discuss is kinda uses a bit of a ghoul to justify a lot of overreach that we wouldn't otherwise allow in our daily lives and so i think that there needs to be a bit more discussion around that but the lack of discussion is almost by design. Ro one might say yes okay. It looks a person who is uninformed that it looks like it was rush through with a view to not necessarily having opened in full debate about something that you generally don't want to have that many is on right at me. Seem to be this trend and it's not a new on. It's certainly we've seen it over the past years. The past decade all passing quite significant national security laws under the guise of terrorism as donated mentioned also of disrupting child porn operations. Both yoon are quite significant issues. Of course but when you start to delve into the letter of the law the new powers in live and with those kinds of crimes specifically they can apply to all kinds of crimes with typically more than threes perspective. Jail time these include things like theft fraud tax evasion illegal gambling. Bankruptcy illegal importing fauna. It's not strictly about child abuse material or terrorism or threats to national security. Even though that's how the government continues to frame these laws and sort of pinson move labor into supporting them each and every time but of course jon. This isn't the only bill we're talking about today. Tell me about what else we should be paying attention to yet. Probably the big one for me is the identify and disrupt bill which i think is slightly sexy in terminology out previous bill. So what this. Identifying disrup- bill allows the afc and other agencies to do is to kind of identify. Disrupt what they suspect to be. Criminal activity mostly online that allows them to collect data. It also allows them to and this is a bit on the nose kind of disrupt networks and takeover accounts. This is really scary to me. So the ability to kind of like go in and get dot. And we've obviously saying instances recently but the issue with a lot of this is that you don't actually have to be a criminal. Suspect yourself to fall under this so you could be the target of a warrant if you are unwittingly in cahoots or you know your network or your business is somehow wrapped up or has fallen into something much more pernicious and they don't really have to ask your permission for that and you have no real feasible idea that you'll like aiding a criminal enterprise or have you get this serious disruptions you'll network when you just coming in and just take it over so i find that really scary. I'm just thinking through the practicalities of that right. So if part of it is about taking over networks. I guess the logic of it is bound to be a group of people involved in in various online networks have varying levels of agency within those groups. Therefore you've got to give yourself coverage to access they dada like am. I getting the wrong into the stick with the practicalities of that arrow. Well what comes to mind. And probably the recent example not in australia but in europe I think it was dutch. Police took over a dark web site. That was selling I think explicit material drugs weapons and other things and essentially. I think they arrested the person who was in control of it and then took over his account and essentially ran the network while they were collecting evidence about the various buyers and sellers so one could imagine these types of warrants being used for activity like that. And that certainly. How the as i said before. The government framed it as being an important means for police true. Disrupt child pornography operations of terrorism organizations. But these serious commonwealth offenses that could in live in these types of warrants include tax evasion and gambling illegal gambling so it's not like these quite significant and unprecedented powers will only be used for those more serious of offenses nisha. He is always around transparency and accountability. As well as we've seen with the encryption laws passed a few years ago we get very little information from law enforcement about how these powers used when they used and we often find out the sort of stats this most basic stats like account. Takeover warrant was used more than a year after the fact. I think that's really not good enough. The sort of maddening thing about these debates in australia is how the government and agencies kind of frame it as child porn crimes on the dock whip when in fact these laws don't apply just to the dock whip i think the term doc been swiftly losing any kind of meanings specifically the dock wave is a kind of unquote internet. Which you can access for a tour browser. These laws. don't apply just to that kind of technology. E- could apply to an pretty typical computer network and also the other sort of example that is always now brought up in the media is operation ironside. Whist rally and police collaborated with place. In the united states and around the world to essentially supply a device and an encrypted app to criminals and then sort of observed the traffic to catch a variety of different criminals. Drug deals etc is a pretty broad range. I just wanted to make sure that when people are using the dock web they really talking about the dock web and not just trying to sell kind of dark and shady pot of the internet. That definitely we want cops to be all over and you don't actually have to be wearing a black hoodie when you log on like directly and you don't need a light up cable either. I mean i've got to throw this out. It definitely helps though if you've got on. Download the ease listening to aerial bogle from these strategic policy institute. And joyce wadler from our guest this week apple made waves this week by announcing a one hundred million dollar settlement with small app developers who were suing the company. Let's start with why. I was suing apple in the first donor so the reason that they were obviously suing apple in the first and this was kind of driven by large companies like epic hulu cough a fortnight on spotify particularly in europe is that these companies weren't able to have the ability to have their payment platforms within. The app. stole sorry. That was a big problem for them because apple takes a thirty percent clip of every single app. That's inside the app store and they wanted to have their own abilities to do that. So that was the big reason that they were doing in the first place hara and so why did apple fault aerial. Well think apple's facing issues on all sides in the united states and in europe in particular a lot of pressure about the alleged monopolistic behavior especially when it comes to the app store because they do control which apps listed there and then they also really control the way that app develop is can be in touch with their customers and offer services for payment without apple taking quite a significant cut. I think about thirty percent percent so this is a settlement agreement. It's a proposed settlement agreement. I should say so. We'll have to say whether it's approved by judge which is the next step but it is a bit of a shift. I guess there's a debate about what apple's really giving up here. So i think it's offering one hundred million dollar payout from apple but it's also clarifying quote unquote its policies to explain that app. Developers can contact customers with permission and tell them about payment options outside the app store on scoring like an anti steering policy. It'll be interesting to say whether that makes a big difference because there's a lot of convenience to making in-app purchases that i think people will be resistant to stepping out of that sort of enclosed space. That they're more familiar with. So i mean from a user standpoint arrow assuming this kind of flows as has been preemptively grade. What sort of changes will you as a user likely notice in the east. Well you might get that contact from an app. You've signed up for to offer that alternative way to pay. I think this settlement is really much more focused on developers rather than uses. That was i mentioned before they'll be a creation of one hundred million dollars. Small develop assistance fund which one of these funds from a big company which is aimed at helping small develop is get off the ground. I mean according to one of the plaintiffs dismore developer assistance fund will benefit more than non nine percent of us developers. You know. I guess i question how much this will really impact uses at all or whether they'll even notice a change it's really about that accusation from developers and concessions from apple tree. These develop is about. It's kind of power and control over the app store and staying on apple. Tim cook chief of apple has not ten years in the job. And it's interesting with tim cook because obviously he comes in the wake of steve jobs who sort of looms very lodge in tech company law inundate popular culture and tim cook. Sort of came in is very low key character but he's sort of done the distance in a way. Yeah he really has. I saw this great quite. I was reading all about. Tim cook earlier this morning and they cut us at. That apple needed a cheerleader and a politician. Possibly mold in a micromanaging stressed out. Found out that that was. I just thought that was a really nice encapsulation. I mean like people forget tim. Cook has has really helped to make apple. it's one of the world's is most valuable company. It's growing to like two point five trillion dollars. Its revenues doubled annually every year. And it's this giant multifaceted business. That was really. I guess went when Jobless around was primarily known for way he has really diversified the business. In a way that i think very few actually predicted. What do you think of the legacy of tim cook. I don't think he's going anywhere but in the ten years that he's been there. Reo how how. Well do you evaluate him as a chief executive. When i think about team kook. I think about him fronting the conferences. I think about apple revenue going up as a great vote. Wrap on tim. Cook's legacy and as a tweet in their jets tracking quota on revenue since two thousand eleven and the numbers are just crazy. Two thousand eleven quarter one was twenty six point seven billion now quote on twenty twenty one. It was one hundred and eleven point. Four billion like i guess from an objective perspective numbers go up means good ceo. But i think there are a lot of like a legacy issues. He not least around the lack of creativity in new highly innovative hardware. There's always continuous issues about waste with apple. The fact that it remains pretty difficult to repair the devices. There's a lot of discussion around like the air pods. Which i think is probably one of the most significant bits of additions to the iphone in recent years. The fact that they were breaking initially when they came out you know just another little bit of truth throw into the landfill and these are the kind of issues that continue to haunt apple. As it achieves its sort of world mega dominance which of of course brings legal issues with it too as we were just discussing around monopolistic badia. The strategy is just infinitely less showy with tim. Cook in the sense that it's moving from being a hardware company jonah to being more of a a software and services company so you get introductions of like apple music and apple tape plus from a business standpoint. Those things sort of maxine because it's a continued income stream like you sign up to us subscriptions office and you sort of their funneling money from from month to month but does it seem less ambitious as a company to you now under tim cook. It does and a dozen. I think people give. Tim cook a bad rap. Because with the exception of the airports there hasn't really been like a massive massive launch. I don't really count the watch. I feel most people the watchos. Surely the watch sits in by in my drawer and i take it out every so often when i want to know exactly but like apple things like apple health particularly apple health and apple. Tv really but mostly like things like apple health like the far reaching ramifications of that. And what that's going to do for that business. i agree. it's not sexy. It's not the new iraq. It's not the new iphone. But i think it will actually kate the company in a better financial position than it would have been otherwise it just allows them to go into so many different areas allows them to partner with different people. They're also they're still acquiring companies obviously because they huge but they are buying up companies to do new things. And i think they are working on more hardware plays as well but i think just solely focusing that the arena was getting crowded. Samsung's becoming a lunch for a long time. They've got that foldable. Find that now. I hear is not exploding so there. There are a lot more players in the field that when jobs was. They're doing the same kind of thing. The access to that kind of technology to build these kinds of things which apple i feel like had like a really big hits thought on when jobs pasta way is changed now and they have to diversify and i think the investors have kind of like really really happy with that because if he would have just stayed only making iphones. I'm just not sure if they would be the company they out today. There's a lot of mythology as i mentioned that sits around apple aerial. What is a matter of urgency for them. Like what are you something they need to be doing now to get out ahead of the curve bid technological business thing or even a social issue that they need to be bottled. We'll apple is clearly chosen privacy as it's sort of message to the world. I mean there are ads like at train stations now really emphasizing that angle apple as a privacy company. It got a lot of i suppose credit for this when apple resisted efforts in the united states by the fbi. To get it to unlock. They find of the sanitary terrorist a few years ago. You might remember that kind of stash between apple in the. Us government refused to open up the fine to create a back door into defines encryption to allow the cops to get in the cops did manage to get in using a different form of technology not provided by apple and its current sort of approach true scanning apple properties. I cloud set your child. Pornography is probably a interesting and controversial development on this front. It's going to be a difficult play for them to balance these kinds of pressures from law enforcement and social pressures around things like a scanning fines for illegal material etc and that angle which clearly desperately wants to cling onto as the privacy company in contrast to the other tech giants whether they be facebook apple samsung and the rest. I think that's why apple has basically avoided a lot of the regulation that you've seen coming for the likes of google and facebook because they have put so much impact on privacy and they have kind of put that forward. Is that big brad message. That's allowed them to cut neatly sidestep a lot of the issues. That arrow is talked about already coming full them but also the the fact that like tried to break up these giant companies and apple is the biggest it is the sole biggest company in the world at the moment in terms of actual mock capitalization. Sorry if anything we should be trying to break them up more than anybody else. But for some reason they're not under the same level of scrutiny. Is something like facebook and i find that really interesting but i think that's in the future to be honest and i think cook knows that. So it'd be interesting to see how that plays out or that. He's got on the show this week huge. Thank you to. John is wildly creative on your thanks coming back on the show. Thank you so much for having me. And aerial bogle analyst with these trillion strategic policy institute. Thanks coming back from download this show. Of course thanks and with that. I shall leave you. My name is marc fennell. Thanks for listening to another episode of download this shower.
TikTok's life saving Lorikeets
"This is an abc podcast. Romantic movies when someone's in their room and they hear tapping on their window on these episode of hack. We have the most beautiful story of when a guy hood that kind of tapping. but it turned out to be laura cates. He's going from dealing with some lockdown loneliness which we can all relate to to making new friends with these birds. That story is coming up. Hello avenue dies. He and later on this episode. We're going to talk about youtube announcing it will block all and vacs content but is it going to work pack. The public is actually more progressive than the government and the regulatory bodies. All right big news today. Md and magic mushrooms are getting closer to being approved to treat mental health issues like pay day anxiety and depression. Scientists have been looking into whether that's safe and finding these drugs have positive effects in recovery for some of those conditions so the drug regulator the tgi us a group of experts to look into it and these often. They handed down their findings saying they could be used for therapeutic use but only in really supervised clinical settings not in potty situations on supervised. I want to know your thoughts. Cool in have you used. Md mayo mushrooms to deal with your mental health three hundred or five three six saratoga africa reports. The first side effect that i had from lsd was was laughter. And i thought what an incredible experience to to take a drug that results in uncontrollable after that smell and fifa like a lot of people. Hey i tried drugs when he was in high school. Mt may weed then. Mushrooms and ila stay. Hey describes his. His experiences of psychedelics is therapeutic. Found that people who were not affectionate by nature or who had suffered traumas Early on in their life became more open. Despite melons positive drug experiences he did have one. That was really really bad. In two thousand seventeen million meta guide unique who shared his interest in psychedelics. So they sparked a friendship and talked about how to get some drugs online and then one day delivery arrived at milnes house it was basically just. I was asleep. Knocking door went to sign for a package. I went back to bed and thinking that it was just motorcycle. Parts is something that i had ordered from overseas. It wasn't motorcycle parts. It was hafa kahlo of empty about ten fifteen minutes later after that. I'm just a kid. Twenty car doors slamming outside my house and people in the front and the back door knocking on all the windows yelling my name and that's when i realized that the straightening federal police had become involved in the affairs was charged with importing a marketable quantity of a border control drug that carries a maximum penalty of life in prison. Now millan says he wasn't involved in ordering the drugs but a jury disagreed and in the end he was sentenced to four years in jail with a non parole period of sixteen months. What was prison like. It was definitely a significant impact. It's a high stress environment. There are people in there who are difficult to get along with. I guess melons recently been released on parole and now he's studying lord uni because of his criminal record he might never become a lawyer despite that he doesn't necessarily regret the experience. I mean it's galvanized. My resolve for advocating for a free assessment in attitudes towards that we treat people mostly in regards to drugs and this is a fast evolving space. Just a few hours ago. A report from an expert independent panel put together by australia's drug regulated the. Tgi was handed down the panel found. That md may and magic. Mushrooms may show promise for therapeutic. Use that only when they used in really closely supervised clinical settings with intensive professional support. Now we just have to wait. Until december for a final decision to be made on whether the drugs will be reclassified classified from prohibited to controlled which means they could be used to treat mental. Illnesses is research ongoing at the moment looking at thala todd in the treatment of treatment resistant depression or obsessive compulsive disorder substance use disorders including liking citation and alcohol. Use could high near he's He's really a big area. Where there's there's a lot of research has the minor. That's dr steven. Bryant from eighth cowan university in wma his director of psychedelic research. And here. atkins. It's only a matter of time before emptying may is used in medicine a classic psychedelic. But it's probably the one that we're gonna see mine strength verse because the amai earlier this year there was a by three clinical trial published. And so we getting that sort of beyond promising out that. Dr bright stresses that using these drugs to self medicate can be really dangerous that have a pre existing mental health condition adding the drug on top of that. We doubt the public psychotherapy is actually quite dangerous. Include lead to them into whole condition becoming worse rather than better doctor. Bright thinks regulation is realistically still a long way off how politicians and now regulatory board Not ink inc with the public's attitude not the public actually more progressive on the in the government and the regulatory forty gone on triple j sarah tumesco with that story. Let's hope to professor colin lou from the black dog institute. She's one of the country's leading researchers in this area. Thanks for your time professor. What do you think about the expert. Report. that's come down today that these drugs could show promise. How do you feel about that. Someone who has been studying this area for a really long time. Yeah look high and put a quick look at the port. The port sounds to me quite sensible recommendations. Looted the literature myself because we also very interested in in this field and particularly the use of silla cyber which is in magic mushrooms for treatment resistant depression. My own impression haven't looked at the studies is that it's it's still early in the whole research development in terms of the amount of evidence we need before we can say confidently That you know. This is an approved treatment. But what we're seeing is very promising. Someone sexy didn't i didn't. I didn't take mushrooms for my mental health. But after taking them recreationally. I found the sense of balancing clarity that stayed with my life for a long time. If you people texting in saying they are accessing it illegally to deal with mental health issues as well. Do you think that that is a trend. That's emerging in society. Generally people seeking these drugs to deal with mental illness. Look i think there's been a huge amount of attention and interest in this area and a lot of people in the community are hearing about that so. I'm not surprised that people are trying. I've looked at the two studies that came out recently from overseas for example using decided to treat depression now studies carefully This said come out that people don't be aware of so the first one. Is that these people with depression. Had to be not on. Usual antidepressant medications The second one is that they didn't have what we call treatment resistant depression. Which is the conduct. Depiction that you'd want to treat but this kind of treatment so that's basically the depression that's failed standard treatments and because using suicide in a medical context it's actually quite complex and quite costly and involved. it's not something that we would necessarily be recommending for people with the first op depression. You know when you first become depressed have digression. It's something that really should be geared towards people with severe and what we called treatment resistant depression. Where two standard treatments have it worked. That's where it makes sense to me when you look at what's involved in the treatment and those studies didn't treat that group so it's interesting that i've had members of the public come to me and people who come out catch me and treatment clinics for example saying why copy have suicide and benef- actually told for some of these things you know the response has been all. We didn't realize that that wasn't clear from what we've been hearing in the public schools and i can see why all indicates they've had many years of depression can help by medications but not one hundred percent well but if said things like i couldn't possibly come off my medication. A complete mess Which is what you would need to do. In for example in the way it was given a dose studies. Someone is text in the government is way too heavy handed and stop to consider. That drugs may have health benefits in certain circumstances. Obviously after this report is being handed down today the therapeutic goods administration will decide around december. If it's going to reclassify these drugs but then it is up to governments right to make these accessible potentially as an actual treatment option regulated. Is there any incentive from governments to do that. Professor arctic government has defined divine balance. You don't want to be overly restrictive but neither do you want to lack appropriate controls of which means that the you know people might be then receiving treatment saying mainstream clinics that is not appropriate and not safe. Because i think the government has evolved in that as well and we'd be the first of all you know. I think criticize them if that will lack of controls and harm was being done so that the things that we don't know in terms of how long lasting are the benefits. You know what you wouldn't want to see example someone coming off medications which are have been helpful having treatment being really well for two or three months and then having a big crash and then coming to grieve We've seeing this happening with other new new treatments that have emerged And so i think holding needs to be managed in a very very carefully. I think we do need to answer some of these questions. And further research and the treatment that is given dusty to be in carefully control settings people who have a good understanding of the field and the potential pitfalls as well as the potential benefits. Say clearly a lot more work to be done and this is just one big. Step but yeah. There's many more cigar professor colin lou from the black dog institute. Thanks very much for joining us on the show. Payday newies texted. I've always used. Md may and lsd for mental health. I would be glad to be able to get it legally pack youtube as banned all videos featuring anti vaccine content threat. Hack i'm avenue dies and you know when you're in youtube video finishes than a nuance thoughts automatically that has been shown to send people down dangerous conspiracy rabbit holes exposing them to misinformation especially about vaccines in coveted the moment it's a problem on heaps of social media platforms so today youtube has announced it will bend some big channels promoting dodge information and it says it will delayed all antitax content but will this work thames and roses. Being looking into this. Most people are trying their best to navigate a really tricky and dynamic situation which the never before that's difficult and it's hot to work for complex scientific information like a virus that tends to mutate and change. This is doc divided ourevitch hatred running assigned to youtube channel with griffith university. Colleage dr motte boughten for five years. Everybody doctor dr monkey answering your covert vaccine questions. There's been a huge amount of evidence based information and misinformation regarding things such as covert itself the legitimacy of covert hell dangerous. Covert is boris. The vaccine efficacy and safety instead being shocked at just how much misinformation about has popped up on youtube everybody's come across some degree of misinformation surrounding probably nearly every time they hope on some sort of social media or mass content sharing platform. So i've been fighting it. It's very easy to lot. A number of small fires but very difficult to put them all out. Yeah it's been really hot so simple question but potentially an essays worth of an answer which is why he's happy you gibb's announced it's going to delete the accounts of some really massive misinformation spread is and it's also going to remove all content that's been promoting lies about vaccines they will remove all mislaid contents about vaccines so not just not covet nineteen vaccines vaccines or measles for example hepatitis day aerial bogle is an analyst at the australian strategic policy institute. She says this latest move builds on a covet nineteen vaccine content misinformation ban. That youtube already has in place. That band saw one hundred and thirty thousand videos removed from the platform last year. But it does have a team of two little chain late because this kind of content has been spreading on youtube for a really long time and if people con spread their views on youtube. That doesn't mean they'll stop altogether. Certainly these people aren't going to go away. They just going to shift through new emerging platforms not yet as heavily moderated as made a youtube facebook. Youtube hasn't said exactly how will find the videos to delight or just how bad an account has debate to get the chop but arrow suspects. It'll be a combination of checking videos flagged by uses and automated systems. So i'm sure kind of cat and mouse game going on for the foreseeable future. This is dr matthew mark. He's latrobe uni academic who looks at why people time to conspiracy theories and misinformation content. The dazs illicit strong emotional reactions is spread widely. And that's it and that's a huge chris. Hayes ain't a massive rise in the popularity and spread of conspiracy content since the start of last year. Probably because we've all been a line stock at home and searching for ceases. Youtube is that social aspect of getting in touch with people something. That's very easy to do on the internet. These days is to go out and find others who has similar to you and fond others who've had the share cima beliefs who you're on. Hey expect some people will leave the platform entirely feeling like it's old part of a big conspiracy for some of these people may polarize further from Belief main entrenched beliefs even fill up but on a whole he reckons. It's a good move. We have to weigh that up against the many people perhaps in the future that one end up going down these rabbit holes. Judah youtube algorithms dr mica grace. He hopes the move will say people seeking answers find evidence base videos. I think it's just a good direction that we're going in to try and i'm for evidence based information as opposed to the mass of misinformation. That's out there. Pack on triple j ten roads without story text me. Have you found yourself going down and vacs rabbit hole on youtube. Will maybe another platform like teak talk for three nine seven five seven triple five a spoke to at least thomas. She's researcher at the institute for strategic dialogue. She focuses on this area. Thanks for your time lace. We just heard that it's kind of unclear how you choose actually going to ban antitax content lots of platforms use a I as well as motorized contains. But it's not always effective. Will youtube actually be able to take down all these content. Yeah that's a really good question. and particularly because the challenge around audiovisual content is quite different from the challenge round pick spice contents and because usually like when you a social media platforms when they're trying to motorized against the kinds of life in age based or or sort of video based content on the what's noticed hashes which is sort of like a numerical representation but the type of content. The problem is with vex content. You kinda can't do that Because the content like the elements of those videos might come in a bunch of different forms. the you might have somebody just talking straight to camera like sort of speaking at the antibiotics content You might have an image is like might come. In in a range of different forms that will be really difficult to tackle in any kind of a standardized automated sort of away. What about the algorithm. Because we've known that you choose these notorious in sending people down these rabbit halls. Is it any indication. Youtube is gonna fix that problem. I'm not aware of any indication of that And obviously like sort of the. That's not like a particular quick. The algorithm is how the algorithm function. Like so the algorithm mississippi up engaging content which is similar to the content even with before So it's it's sort of a central function of the algorithm. It would mean fundamentally changing how you work which seems very unlikely. Yeah obviously it's like a massive profit driver as well for youtube. It's really interesting after these benz Came about in the last twenty four hours or so a russian state-backed broad kosta which is called ave. It's german channel got taken down from youtube for promoting covert misinformation and now the russian government is threatening to ban youtube in russia. How countries going to react to these. Especially those which mole. I guess in favor of promoting free speech and so on i mean i think that the russian situation is really fairly unique. I i don't think that many other On channels are likely to be blocked spreading anti vaccine. Disinformation or i mean. I don't think it's a situation that we're likely to say repeated I imagine most countries. We'll be fairly fairly positive about this And i think it's worth noting that new by youtube comes justice if icing increasing pressure from the us senate Who will likely be and this move might be interpreted as a an effort to try to assuage some of the senate's consent. Yep soupy interesting. For melvin texted in. Please tell me. I won't have to say anymore. Ads from craig. Kelly motorola's texted. It's not facts onto question with anti vexes. it's belief someone else. A lot of anti vaccines will take these as verification of they've used and then being silenced because they have broken the narrative at least ultimately. You know you've said that there is that fear of ongoing regulation in the us and so on. But what do you think about youtube. Sort of fighting that idea of being a platform where anyone can expressive use because traditionally. That's how they've been in even in this announcement today. It said our content about vaccine policies will still be allowed new vaccine trials. Historical vaccine successes. I mean is it still trying to play both sides. By being like yeah. We're going to deal with this content but also you can say what you want. I mean i think the idea that that you should have wholeheartedly. Embraced complete free. Stage prior to. This decision is a bit misguided. Youtube did delay Some content The is they probably a in a sort of an unsystematic way Or you know. There was sort of inconsistencies. In the way that they've handled they content moderation policies but they definitely have content moderation policies So this is like a you know a fundamentally noble thing There there's a bunch of different kinds of content the con- post on youtube already including sort of credit like broader sort of credit nineteen misinformation that they have taken some action against although i think a lot of people would argue in not enough action and in terms of the channels that they've taken down. You know we've heard a lot about these group. Called the disinformation dozen the sort of prolific conspiracy theorists and so on who post a lot of this stuff across all different social media but also their stuff gets reposted. all the people A few of them have been taken down by youtube but to remain up. What do you think about youtube targeting. Those specific characters. I think in some ways they each probably looking for symbolic action. They can take immediately because as we talked about the the actual enforcement of of this band is going to be really complicated And there's probably a little bit of a question around how much How much if she is willing to put into doing that sort of grassroots. Like less less headline-grabbing enforcement I think it's also probably with noting that much as it is valuable to get these. Get these influences off youtube Several of them have already just immediately. Moved to to a number of sort of Video video platform alternatives. That already out there. So it's all of this. Content no longer exists But it it's just not on each evening show overflew we let you go elise. Obviously people are saying this kind of content a lot every on different platforms. What do you think the approach should be going forward from governments or social media platforms. What needs to be done to protect young people from being exposed to to misinformation the biggest question ever but I think i think this sort of like to bring it down a little bit Bacteria that specific question of youtube. I think there's an enormous benefiting getting stuff off the mainstream social media platforms just because it makes it more difficult not impossible but more difficult for the people who pushed this kind of information to rage new audiences and people haven't yet been exposed to this kind of content as i mentioned before like the the people who are already sort of looking to this content The people who are already sort of eating of anti vaccine they will still be able to find this content and find it very easily but the value of getting it off the mainstream platforms that you don't sort of accidentally end up with this stuff in the fate of people who went looking for her at least hamas from the institute of strategic dialogue. Thanks very much for chatting to us. Hack on triple j you all listening to hack. It is time for our wholesome fix of the day is hot of the broadside on jay and this one is really good. We can all relate to not saying people in lockdown and how lonely that can get will think about being in a low spiraling moment. You hear tap on your window. It's not one of your best friends. Boss a rainbow. Laura kate who ends up changing. You'll life surge. Negus has met the person this happened to and he's become a tick talk sensation. That's been you much getting shown by basically the only friends he's been able to see months owning claude. I'll come back to them in a sec. Though loneliness is going to be the cruelest thing you can give to a person. Ben like many of us in lockdown has had a super tough time leaves by himself in a one bedroom apartment in sydney all throughout the day i couldn't detach myself from unwind and it was a rousing dormant issues in emotions whilst all side trying deal with new issues and challenges that i was facing and those just no skype. It was constant mental time. Well and die after die. Wake up a little bit more frustrated with a little more despair so much time align without any social interaction had been at breaking point. It was as if every wall i had ever built to be able to defend myself from such times in such feelings. They which is getting shattered and shattered. And then one day a chance encounter flip bends isolated and lonely life on its head just had a little tap on the window. I just went. Nah joke because i say this little pup l'arcade head pike and up a walk to ever have little stair the lower gate and i just went on my putting the wind and as soon as i open that little window it just puppies head through and that was kinda guy. My ben craving social interaction. Couldn't let the opportunity slip and started trading time with the bird like any human hang up and then it started to get a little bit complicated but then after a few months and he started bringing fees girlfriend lori. Kate right mahajan sag. I could yeah. That was a turning point and it was strange. Because when i started to really feel my solitary felt like the lower cates becoming more and more often. Ben wanted to figure out how to socialize more with the birds so he spiked to a vet. That just got me a dry next pat up. So as soon as it's out of fading relationships started to blossom. I had been lacking any sort of social interaction with the humankind as bunks as that sounds. That was extremely fulfilling and what i started to notice was. I began to reimagined in connect with myself whilst having these little times and instances with the buds and that was taking me why from whatever was going on in my mind and now i was starting to just really start to feel like human and sent me in back down. Says they broke you out of that sokoll of despair it was unreal because i was getting so much joy from it. I started just to feel every single interaction. That i had with them and once i started fading from my hand i started getting ideas you know. Start to fade them from the top of my head or try to take them into the living room and introduce him to my plans. Ben now has to l'arcade couples that come and visit him. Patron jane and bunny and claude. These couples are completely different but the morning birds the regional toe. Which are peter and jane. Logical him peter and jane i said the first one is paid a hasty regional. The reason why wouldn't pay her is because like i've said he region on my imagination and pay dependence my absolute favorite characters one of my favorite stories and i also feel like i've got a few similar personality traits. Hey can be stop at his. Pay to pan but it's also like he's constantly lusty shadow and he's trying to chase it and he just goes out a little bit bizarre then his partner is jain. She was going to be windy but i couldn't do that. It just wasn't feeding however she's very similar to giant from tarzan and then the other two which we might most likely wide seat and they come after bunny and claude and then speaks for himself. Because they're the like the hyenas of the laura cates. You started a teak talk. that's gone gangbusters. right it's blowing my mind. It's been like closest six million views with the little birdies is the sixty follow his now and start attaches. Say how how happy people were just saying this little birdie content and just kind of wanted to spread that a little bit more and that was the are in the i and he had to do these relationships that you've created with these birds and how they have helped you get for. What sort of rely reflections. Is it keeping you move full. It's it's tough time. And now that i've been able to reconnect with myself and come to understand my position life. I'm already gone down a new avenue. Careerwise i'm in the process of working fulltime office job but also working casualties disability support wacker with the buzz particularly. I've i've opened up an outcry of elo within myself which is children's literature which i absolutely nava and she's bringing a lot of life back into me. Could you say something grand. Is that the birds of been a catalyst for the beginning of the esi loft pies locked out. Yeah that's and this has been a long time coming. I know what saudi should. We should always keep those going to be some. Sorta we'd mime in thousand is going to bring me back to was and it's painful lorikeets on triple j. That's very was by serge negus. Thanks so much for listening to this episode. The next one will shake shakeout. We're gonna hear thoughts about big stories from the week. I'll catch you later.
Conversations: Featuring Peter Jennings, Executive Director of the Australian Strategic Policy Institute (ASPI)
"You'll listening conversation with john end featuring peter jennings thanks very much for joining us with jennifer akot going on defense and security with these conversations and you seem to be a very very private person talked to a lot of rising specifically a as the see a all sp that's driving in strategic policy institute you've got about forty people you're the premier think tank on defense and security dirty across management in australia advising the federal government and putting forward public policy ideas tell us about ashby from your perspective and watch important well john fussy thank you for asking me on and 'em espy's and unusual based a it was really the creation of john how a and m a it came about i think 'em in the year ninety nine in two thousand 'em which was a high point of military operations restricted we we have deployed out forces into his team offer a major stabilization operation and that'll prussian went very well but how it came out of it i think feeling dissatisfied with some of the advice had received from the defense department and he felt some what was needed was a almost a sort of a ginger group that would be able to put the department on its metal by providing what howard colds contested bility policy advisers say he created us be a as a as a government on company in fact a but within explicit child is saying you you ought to be independent on what you research and what you say publicly about defense and security issues as as i think about it now twenty years later and be ready was reactive a politician who is kind of like very comfortable in his position is is prime minister i'm not sure the subsequent governments might have been comfortable to actually invite a sort of a critique into the into the house and it's true decided to the first 'em fifty years of espy's operation defense is pretty reserved battered is well you know what cameras like it's great to see environment a but we now in twentieth year of operation 'em went out fifty stuff in fact we've got a big job brushing working on cyber security which is just growing a exponentially and i i think you'd expect me decide this but i i think were xt doing really good working to solve a gaping a public focus on what the key strategic issues are and also helping governments and oppositions think their way through about a big investment decisions around military capability a an just as importantly how austrailia manages its international position a at a time when you are we seeing a very unpredictable and increasingly risky international environment so that that's what i see does a lot of people simply referring to it as a as a think tank a but i i type some emphasis in wanting us to be very close to the policy community and trying to be is constructed this we can be at the same time as were assigned from from time to time critical of aspects of government policy you write something that's why many for many years and 'cause i was there at the time and ask you set up which is we think having a no defense bureaucracy in fact sometimes it seems to me there's much of a shadow is the people in uniform it's annoying us and i really wonder sometimes how fleet of foot how i used to respond quickly ineffective leader changing global circumstances well it's a it's a big organized fashion and nj dot i was one before a before i went to ashby my my lost a defense joe russo being the deputy secretary for strategy 'em at that time about twenty one thousand civilians in the defense organization and that does sound like a lot of i i can't i can't say that but remember that covers everything from a a face maintenance through to people that they're actually acquiring they equipment which the defense forces use a the people that were in what you might call fronting policy jumps a like the one i was doing were were were fairly small it you know i i i think the problem that you're you're touching on there is one that's that's quite broad throughout the public service right now which is that the the whole organization has become risky this they don't really coming forward to government with innovative ideas and in fact this is something the successive prime minister's complained about that you know what i get from the bureaucracies incremental ism but new ways of thinking 'em end a sort of agility to deal with fast moving issues something the lodge public service organizations done to very well and by contrast is what think tanks i think to do quite well because of a small were hungry a we want people to listen to us and we know that that happened we have have you and original things decide so it's actually quite a very different environment a i in ashby and it was from my experience working in a lodge defeats bureaucracy which is how to respond a lot of the talk to you because i i think think tanks at a very important very very important role to play a and i do know what you mean by that camera bubble i'll be really blindsided i think and i don't mean to be disrespectful but i i sometimes is i think back i read alleged use of his own national security community cabinet a that there were times when the senior brash felt they have to abide by the rules rather and tell us what by release all is well anyway yeah probably invite some serious blowback from setting quotas but that is a distinct impression ahead of time i look you know i mean i'm a i'm a longterm residents of camera and i've i've grown to love the place over the years but but you do have to wonder if the design of of the federal capitals best thing that ever happened in in the coming off of the strategy because what it did was it separated public policy from the business community it kind of isolated in a town where a lot of people will have discussions that are extremely important sort of theological discussions about what's important inside different government departments and it's also very iffy it's very focused he's in powell he's got control and in some ways those things i think leave a normal australians some nonplussed or or or disinterested it it's it's different even in in london washington way government in some ways seems to be a bit closer to populations a and there's a large group of people want to actually get in and argue about walk run the right policy savings should be sargon camper needs to get out of town or or at least they're officials and they politicians to to a kind of silly message to wider audience and make sure the distractions understand what policy settings meaning and wind out of the white i i'm or at least you know false governments to explain the more effectively 'cause all of his leads is something that i suspect not top of mind not off and recognized the chief role of the federal government of australia is actually the security of its people absolutely including in defense but in this very different age we're living in now all of these other sort of cyber aspects yes i'll make sure that we are able to believe freedom in a country yeah and i think those those issues of becoming much more challenging a you know it it it is clear that the constitution makes national security the number one responsibilities wine we came together in the fis de'andre eight and a but you know i think the truth be told you know we have tended to ride on america's tiles for decades allowing america today most of the heavy lifting on security in asia pacific region and that's why we've been able to get away with comparatively low levels of defense expenditure 'em to give you one example of that when i left the department in twenty twelve it was a bit of a squeeze on the defense budget because see the the gulag governments of the divers trying to get a rule commonwealth budgeting surplus a defense spending had been ritchie's 'em in twenty twelve defense spending rose one point seven percent of gross national product and ashby actually white into that debate to say well the last time are expended choose that love and it wasn't fact nineteen seventy seven a so you know i i have felt some time that successive is driving governments and and i mean listen i in a bipartisan way i have had not taken the defense in national security function as seriously as they should and certainly noticed seriously as it needs to be taken when when you look at what's happening in in the region and globally a which percent i think quite quite immediate and dramatic security problems strike let's then open this right up a new were instrumental of course and they lost of late what type lose that we should just i mean to people who are not used to the bubble what he's a white paper on defense we had one in two thousand sixteen what is it firstly secondly the will is changed dramatically even since two thousand sixteen and yet we're not talking about us enough in australia you see during the election campaigns and settled amazingly little defense spoken about the very different and i would argue much more uncertain world we now leaving any security of of people is a primary objective of government especially what's what title but then of more importance as a leading advisor the government what you think let's go to a what how you see the world the most important things that we need to know as a people on our governments and they'd be responding to inside what type of food and under the broader picture well what type is these rather iconic 'em statements of policy in in the defense world a which has seen since the early nineteen seventies about seven or eight one type is the had been produced over that period of time they meant to be public documents 'em and they really about helping government to explain to destroying a audience at an end date to an international community so why are we spending spending on defense what other priorities end in a in a in an unclassified why what what wherever the threats wait what is it the were actually structuring after things forced to deal with and she side the last one we had in the stratagem which began in a twenty fourteen and finished in february of twenty sixteen 'em and i did in decline advisory role to the to the government as as a external expert but panel 'em chair to sort of taste the the the document is it went through its various stages of development icon site was necessary at an easy thing to do because we had to prime ministers in three minutes just the defense side of the life of this particular documented that that had it signed impact but at the end of the day it's a statement about how we spend the money had where where's the threat and you know what what did they equipment solutions we we want the defense force to be to be thinking about as as i think about it 'em well among two points on it firstly i i think it's quite likely that a future government of whatever politicals drive a royal commission another documents at the reason for that is because the pace of strategic changes as you said is is moving so quickly a but we have to make sure our policies are designed to deal with you know the merging she chip problems rather than the things that must have been wearing a pickle two years ago one example of that almost exactly the time the defense wet paper was commissioned by tiny habits in twenty fourteen china started its islands building its audience construction in in the south china sea and at the time of the fix for piper was released in february of twenty sixteen china had by being built three fully functioning complex military bases in the south china sea in the tournament is taken us to produce a policy statement so that's the number one pro in the time we're riding a pipe yeah they managed to militarize well basically create a civil military bases on things at all must it's just specs and yes that's exactly right there were claims about three thousand some heck tastes of land is one of the most amazing sort of civil civil engineering projects that you'll see it leaving an open question is have good engineering was the actually produce these facility but it was the maritime equivalent of the russian annexation tion of crimea 'em and i i think because it happened at see people didn't necessarily see this is being serious in a in a military why suddenly be vondra administration decided that it was just a dispute over a bunch of rocks and i i didn't want to jeopardize the relationship with china to respond strongly to the fishing but what how many liberal since two thousand sixteen how many regardless now where we have three not like they have consolidated around three functioning isis and these military grade runways of about three thousand mason's that go protective hanging facilities which would actually has a v eight craft whole entire restraining if folks in terms of the numbers of aircraft which second house down there i've got self protection of a missile batteries in other words this is serious it's not just tycoon planting a flag on a on a beach to say we on this territory 'em it's a development which means the china control cs spice over the south china sea which is about eighty percent of the sauce of the mediterranean some major piece of geography and why it matters to us is is because you know it's very significant part of a tried moves through that region up north not simply to china but also to japan into south korea end it's the region that is absolutely critical to japan because japan is entirely dependent on oil and liquid natural gas supplies from the middle east which comes through the streets of malacca singapore is and then turns up i should through the through the south china sea so you know this is modern esoteric dispute it kind of goes to economic an energy lifelines for countries in the region and from a chinese perspective it was a very successful strategic strike sorry illegal that confounded haley who by international law and they just said trot i mean they they they were a number of disputed claims are the territory's the china of a militarized a china has chosen to ignore any international legal judgments about how those disputes should be handled in simply asserts that it has the sovereignty of of control and really the world has has accepted the m a n in the absence of any more authoritative response from american are or from these countries the rage and well china kind of has a defacto control and that's how it's going to going to say so you know that itself is a is a part of a much bigger story about how china has moved a from being a country the blues as a sting shopping sit on budding it's time in hiding its capabilities to a country under siege and paying a that is becoming much more so this is a really much more dominating of how the rechange run 'em and and i think becoming you know i i first and foremost the biggest strategic risk the district he now faces there's no defense force that sucks that it'd be constructing well m a n i will be all so these instruments of chinese pass stop with the economy which of course is a huge and growing but also very fragile 'em at immensely powerful chinese communist party who's number one priority t is just stay in power and see jinping as the as the president's of child china has decided that he's going to do away with any rivalry inside the posse older older military so he reminds personally and lee empower himself for an indefinite in a different period so you know this is a rising 'em aggressively authoritarian state that is challenging the united states for supremacy in i should pacific region and really starting to all these other countries the rights in japan basil's countries of southeast asia will we're in charge and you guys have to liberal say no i i think this precincts a major problem frustrating because so much about wealth is being generated in the last thirty years by trading with john erin by building us relations but we used to tell us soldiers during that time move john who's gonna open up the pot he might not last forever that is the communist party my name was it if we guys who tried wise built wealth model something better one we have said neurologist material wealth i'd wanna freedoms in fact the in fact the line was they were slowly going to become more singapore side more open will control economically successful what types aging brain has done has sort of removed that'll be agenda they they becoming more authoritarian more controlling united significant violations of human and rights leader that promotes because we know the reasons for tightening from the cost of housing through to be relentless attacks on our law firm the media and lots of academia the lot of young strengthens it's allowing institute's invaluable work in this area contempt of court disillusioned with democracy by as churchill said that's very well pretty considerable tennessee's let's drill into the sort of society the sean is turning into the social credit system and extraordinary some violence that accompanies it says the state's watching what everybody i mean it involves all sorts of things human rights the messy abusive technology g technology itself so as marley neutral but what you do with it in a different matter altogether in a set of tyson's marley neutral a new doesn't have any neutral but it can be used extrordinary a beneficial all evil purposes this technology rice is a big part of it say just explore this because it gives a deep inside you into the soda society that the chinese communist party regards as ideal well i guess since the nineteen seventies there's been a trade off that the communist party has a really souls to the chinese people which is to say well we're not we're not democratic but we are delivering gross and improving living standards and and that was the basis of the legitimacy of the of the communist party city will lifting you know tens of millions of chinese people out of poverty and the date that happen very successfully for for a number of a number of decades i i think what we're seeing now is a realization that the party has that it might not be able to deliver high levels of economic crisis indefinitely that they economy is maturing ring growth is slowing a bit aspirations of people i'm not changing the demography is working against china paints the the claim that they might well get old before they get wealthy 'em but the potty still wants to remain in control so at the same time as they economy is starting to foles and what what we're seeing is a the the communist party is putting in place the mechanisms of social control that can keep in power even if the filing on their social compact to delivered to the chinese people and the lodge part of this comes through what is now being coldest social credit system now social credit system is actually a school which you as an individual chinese citizen will receive it's it's out of eight hundred as a a well from both yep you'll you'll be out of the system that will measure things like for example a whether you pay your credit cards on time you'll you'll worthiness a you're a criminal records if you have it but it will also measure joan things like how how closely you support the posse other any indications that you might actually not simple audi on his shoes like taiwan the south china sea for the treatment of a wig us in a in sin jack province and if you'll write it on your social credit system to be completely trustworthy a what that will mean is that especially you'll be unable to join the communist party which is the number one off to personal success and john you won't be able to travel abroad you're studying employment opportunities will be severely constrained 'em and i said this is becoming a mechanism for controlling the population of one point three billion people almost on an alibi out basis now has had john into this well it's on the the most advanced a righty of surveillance cameras a wizard somewhere four hundred million close if it televisions it wouldn't surprise me i mean certainly down the east coast that that would be true a which is also connected to biometric data that i'm using individual in and there's a famous case of a chinese pushing the he had been committed some petty crimes actually being picked out of a i think it was a soccer audience of about thirty thousand people in the stadium through these pipe metric devices to identify that this site you know you don't have to be a leninist even though say jim pain is just sort of understand how that can a move into very tolerant political control of of people's life aspirations something we should be worried about is is that the pot he also sees this as a way of managing what they call overseas chinese but but you and i might call a straight into a chinese ethnicity a sub china mike snow are big knowledge of a paper johnny so i'm seizes being anything other than overseas chinese should be responsive to the posse relaxing assisted living off of this this loyalties infected budging well let let us see expectation and i'm you know i think a you know many many people of chinese background in stride it came here precisely to avoid that type of body control but there's so being a large number of a chinese people that have coming usually under student thesis on the last twenty years that have now found themselves as citizens that have deep ties back to the pay us see an to feel the pressure of this on a social credit system quite quite substantially because it impacts on their families back home i i met a young chinese person yeah who is in fear for her family yeah so you know this pipes devotes just a little bit but to give you an example a trailing national university who's publicly acknowledged to have been hacked by chinese intelligence services last year and one of the key interest the intelligence services have a pop from intellectual property theft is to get into university motorized chat rooms just see what they're obviously students are saying when they studying here in the strategy and if there's an indication that you know a student might be a hot talking about democracy for example in in favorable terms that rallied in a very quickly to the ministry of state security knocking on the youngsters parents house society will you know how is your son or daughter guy in these studies in a strategy should come back you know we concerned about their political attitudes so this this overall 'em system of sub islands in control is being i think take lifted to a i'm you should've orwellian level but actually a a level of of control at georgia will not have imagined because it's it's being it's being run through a b internet things and industrial control devices a in a way that you know dictatorship of the nineteen thirties or forties would have been able to do that you raise a very interesting issue of an enormous capacity modern technology to help in the state controller citizenship which is one of the things that's changed since early days we have now for example a good show global public square care of internet a line but in many ways the tribal between american china's seems to be about technology transfer information stealing of information who ends up who wins the technology will how do we protect ourselves from this a inappropriate use of technology whether it's stolen or whether they simply safe to deploy technologies and they develop themselves to influence us and our citizens and our way of life annapolis legal processes we're going to have to get a lot more savvy and careful about how we do business with china around technology andrew again have to work much hotter to protect our universities at stop businesses from intellectual property saved a mostly through cyber hacking but also using good old fashioned human intelligence sources as well in which there is a is is very active in china has for decades been engage cyncially in wholesale property safe from the west of technology in a way which has been the number one priority of their intelligence services end to which they have put saga technology very quickly and very effectively 'em even outside of the world of espionage john then there's also 'em you're not quite blatant techniques that a of the communist party has used when companies from developed democracies sink to do business in china 'em it will often come at a price of saying you have to tame with the chinese partner and you have to provide your intellectual property to the pot and so that that technology to be advanced in in china and and you know the experience of that is being very very hard for a lot of western companies to actually make money in china or they defined that there i pay is actually being used by a chinese entities 'em there is wholesale 'em chinese spying on australian universities and businesses at which i think we've been amazingly seemingly casual about i sometimes think the traps a at academic institutions and the people who and make them off a notice strongly supportive of our own culture and values is not they and sometimes i decided lee soft a on on some of these tentatives which were not realizing i'm not as attractive as we might have once fooled i i think that has been true and a lot of the social science faculties way there's there's a tendency to want to have quite a moral equivalence or or lack of moral equivalence between a sort of the developed democracies am and in china a which i find a disturbing but probably most serious even and then that john has simply been our universities have seen a the people's republic is being nothing but a business opportunity a and you know the the claim has been well we've had to go to china to fonsi paying students to pay for the research that we need to do because the federal government provided us with a little research funding but we won't end the results of that is almost without exception every striding university is now financially totally dependent on that floor of large numbers of fee paying chinese students into their university systems a quite a few universities for example monash university have established campuses in a in china and the the the sort of pressure to say this is a money making opportunity i think has blinded a university administrators to to some of the risks that come forward in come from intellectual property protection when you have a chinese state is so interesting basically stealing gold they are paid did it did it can get a so there's a real challenge there you know how do we break this economic dependency which are universities have built on china at how do we frankly help universities to understand like i have some serious are pretty protection i need to i need to engage in a mike my institute's sp just did a a a piece of original research about the numbers of chinese academics on faculty in major waste in universities because it's a message that this is another thing the university's should be concerned about is well hiring a chinese faculty without doing enough due diligence to realize that these are people with intelligence connections and links back to the people's liberation army 'em and we found that in fact to australian universities striding national university in cameron the university of new south wales and suddenly you're actually in the top ten globally for having chinese academics on the faculty with undeclared links to the pay alliance of chinese intelligence agency which you can track back if you look closely enough it that they background i mean all homeless let me just say you know my my concern here is is with the predatory behavior of the chinese communist party it's it's not with chinese people a and i think we have to make it very clear distinction about about that but it is the potty which is domon i think it's it's the policy which states intelligence priorities in military priority ends in australia we just have to stop thinking of china is being nothing but economic opportunity at least if we don't take into account the strategic risk comes along with being too dependent is a really important issue see one is i don't think we in australia stop and think carefully enough about half free we actually are not saying where perfect society but my goodness we got a good in a and we don't wanna give that off and this idea that somehow rela endless generation of more money is they golden objective overlooks the fact that his kissinger put if you lose a little friday maybe we get a bad guy in somewhere else or renegotiate things lucy freedom and you'll never get it back in we need to understand and be a bit more hard nosed i think about the will we leave in yeah and willingness lewd academia and i live academia i said i think it's gonna take something of a shock to the system so that moment to a rise in the thinking of strengthening governments and us driving people people in and by that i mean a runner to strengthen universities might have to go to the wool i might have to be declared themselves bankrupt because all of a sudden chinese students numbers dry out 'em and that could happen not necessarily by decision of the party could happen because chinese families tasteful way they want to educate their children a change in fact this is giants 'em but yes i agree i i i think there's a level of complacency and see in australia that we should be worried about now this saints of disconnection from a supporting a government in and out democratic system that you mentioned the has been identified in that lowy poll i think is israeli barring a you know i i think it routinely tells us about a third if not more of people on the city don't we got democracies being important any longer and you know one sort of feels the you cannot come so that you're living in a democracy and you're not actually being personally challenge by the reality of what authoritarianism looks like but all across the waste a i think in the a u s we see arrival of trump and the sort of draining the swamp a view of the american system the uk and brexit with so much of europe 'em sort of a seeing support move away from the mainstream political political parties end in australia where we have this revolving door of prime ministers and ministers and people sort of just disengage from politics that that's pretty on helpful 'em and you know if if you wanna with allergies i mean look at where we are right now we have authoritarianism rising throughout the world we have the democracies looking inter voted in not wanting to engage when's the last time you saw that it was it was the nineteen thirties alight nineteen sixty so i i think this is really a risky mix for us 'em end it's quite a change from what we were all talking about fifteen or so years ago with see end of history francis jama's argument that everyone wisconsin every country we've gotta turn into a liberal democracy well in fact everything since then has moved in your direction a authoritarianism is on the rise democracies being challenge and i think that gives you should give people real concern for prospects for the war and peace in incoming there would be those who would say well what pylos ronnie twenty five million we can't do anything about us what's your view i you'd expect me to say i don't agree with that i think australia if it wants to i can play a significant leading role not just in the region the globally 'em if if we prepare to step up to those types of leadership challenges so you know we are i i think you know in in broad terms about the world's 'em thirteenth scene so fourteenth largest economy that signs on his russia yeah we're driving which is a global pass a an end a lot more constructive frankly in how we approach the then the then the russians did whereabout the the world's thirteenth or fourteenth largest spender on a on a military technology major diner of a development assistance around the world strength is in fact at at the sort of upper end of the middle power range of countries with the history of choosing to involve ourselves in global security going back even the full federation 'em what i think i see in camera is is a willingness to step up to that that kind of 'em way of thinking about sills on the world stage and a my interpretation of of what's going on is the there was a period briefly a dream that each team or a crisis unarmed stabilization of russian iraq and afghanistan after nine eleven where stralia was heavily involved a military was as tossed out the season a stress just as it had been since the high point to vietnam wall and i think people came out of that feeling a bit tired and not really wanting to do any of the heavy lifting in are enraged and it was expensive soldiers could die governments have hot difficult decisions tonight and so for a decade we've we've just kinda hoping doing that 'em and we talk a big game you know we have this image the somehow we leading the south pacific in the southeast these days alicia listens to us but really not not sorry not not unless we're prepared to actually back that up with practical engagement serious defense capabilities 'em and i think we've just been avoiding those tough judgment calls a scribe needs i think preposition admirable quality but this year amid everyone's like us they basically find and ospel evidence is rapidly melting that as history concerns you should never shame any such thing in fact this and all chinese signings and then if you if you want pace prepare for war yeah what's trending now that one point nine percent of gdp on defense a you're gonna not clearly what you thought the threats were to increase it but i haven't made a serious observer listening knows what they're talking about who hasn't said we need to we need to lift quickly and we need the shy symbol confidence in our shelves in fact the weinstein is done in the past and not so much in the third easily tend to be asleep at the wheel is a bit of a very small nation on a bipartisan basis gotta sell surprisingly ready for the terrible times of the first world war yeah yeah look this this two things i'd like to it's sort of react to it as comments they jump one is i i think were we've become a bit too complacent about around cola jesus as as a nation you know i've i've had kohl's over the last she used to get ticket rudy on disheartened about what i see is being chorus training values rob as as as demonstrated rather than the values that we think we bring to the world and what i mean by that is you know huge amounts of they now let's see chasing off the money a willingness to compromise things we might otherwise regattas being coal australian beliefs support for human rights for example a that that to me suggest that you know we we kinda forgetting some of those qualities that made us such a defective country over many decades from from the end of the second world war on i'm on the defense spending pointing a one point nine percent in in one saints of gross national product this is a lot of money it's about forty billion dollars a this current you just decide on a button practical terms if you say what is that buying it buys you about twothirds of a decent sized crowd the mgm cg about sixty five thousand people in uniform that's the size of the defense foresees which which is in a very small by asia pacific standards a in fact art i could tell you the americans is closest ally astonished by the numbers bancroft weaken field and ships and submarines weaken sort of put to see with with the smallest of the force we have a just this time but i think the mistake but we've made the government has made a over the last few years is being sued put put all of its attention on thinking about those big equipment decisions have to be taken to a clip of false in fifteen and twenty years time so these other submarines a the ends i forget replacements none of which we will see into the mid twenties thirties at best and then you know just imagine is the british government had said to a super marina not in thirty i looked to slow down on this but first we until nineteen forty i yes yes that's exactly right i mean it it it's it's it's not it's not anything that's get to a sense that we may have to face conflict in a much shorter timeframe and invited interrupt again it's molding necessarily just these she will not face one surely we need the deterrent pow now the comes from looking like we really believe in our souls and we carry some clouds yes that would maximize that chances of voiding such comfort i think a strong defense forces a powerful deterrent to complicating how a potential enemy think thinks about us and and ideally what you want them to do is to decide it's not worth it's not worth it i mean i don't want to decry the current capabilities of the defense fulsome in my professional career idea if that we have now is the best equipped that it has been an incident years which mole packets of military capability but the very high quality packets of capability the big problem for me is what let's just imagine say you know in the worst of all possible worlds but we are heading to holds a military conflict sometime timing twenty twenty one or twenty twenty two which is quite likely you know there is scenario as the i could paint fewer around taiwan all the south china sea or north korea that they could very easily see conflict flick breakout in that time scott and and then the question that the government should be asking of its senior military leadership is both sets of possibility how will prepay that we now to deal with that situation and what should we be doing differently to get the defense fools up to speed in that kind of twelve to twenty four months tom from now until you know one is having that discussion in camera right now you're kidding i absolutely not not because they beat overwhelming focus government detention an end and therefore on defense department attention has been on designing the pacific false so the twenty forties 'em and you know to get back to you on the latest the mom when she got back to your questions about finch what type is you know there's there's two things the embry why pay fast it's got a plan for the future falls and it's got to tighten the current force an end my argument has spain when not really focusing on the power of false right now because all of investment dollars going into the things that will give his you know the pacific middle size defense forces of the twenty thirties and forties but my question is what about that conflict but we might have fought you know in the next few years so this is why the sp is running a conference in a couple of months time on war in twenty twenty five it's not because we liked the idea of it it's because we think we're not thinking hot enough about how to prepare for that even with the view is saying that good good preparation might deter a conflict freshly reaching out ashes and important element of that preparedness somebody's gonna happen in the near future would appear tomato be the fact that as a nation where they simply driving asleep at the wheel in relation to feel secure you can't run anything you can't run the economy typifies going support a military little line capability going without few and because we banned exploration in development of that round results is all over the place because we no longer have much refining capacity city a crude did not have a like self sufficiency is a very very low levels with importing virtually all of that crude some of the three refined he all as riff on products through the southern end of the south china sea on might not we don have a strategic reserves implies shouli that's a story of a nation that's not not not energized properly united security it it should be a scandal and you know almost the subject of royal commission talk territory a because the the biggest strategic story is is that we've allowed a capacity the domestic fuel storage to wither away to almost zero a n in in in state that has been replaced with justin time approach which basically sees oil being brought to us a firm i may just on international supplies a on on the ticket system as it's called sorted we we purchase the product and it gets delivered through a tanker vessels 'em to give you one example of have done that situation is a jet fuel so in a military conflict you need lots of jet fuel city hope you're apples to organize today 'em on on the best possible 'em counting which includes the small amounts of stocks we have in the strike dragon what's at sea and what's bowl we have probably about two weeks supply of jet fuel 'em now where it comes from is important too because you know it used to be a load of this sort of came from the middle east refund in singapore and came down to a strike that's now change 'em about a third of a jet fuel comes from south korea about twenty five percent comes from japan a about six or seven percent say comes from china in fact so she said it's if it in other words it's gotta come from north through the south china sea run the thing that's now controlled by a chinese eight pow m to australia a now last year when things were starting to look pretty grim on the on the korean peninsula on i started to make a few public comments about the risks inherent in ask plies coming from this location because the scenario august august who's thinking about is a what happens if a one of 'em kim jones midgets submarines sinks a tanker a coming out of the south korean haba 'em you know immediate thing would happen is a shipping companies would not put just see on an almost from the beginning of a korean peninsula crosses we would be hosted in australia to institute rationing for jet fuel on inundate for all other categories of fuels well and and the first thing that will happen is the defense force will come to government inside iran we won't have first dibs at at access to that side domestic flying will stop very quickly 'em all because of our dependence on on adjusting time fuel supply system just like our international agreements have not he dies reserves yes which way well well short often and indeed of the few countries that has sort of completely ignored the those sort of benchmarks but what is adequacy of additional new wreck on some of our allies up pretty unimpressed well hardly surprising i mean if if you a nother right now i bet a very close pot and then japan has has months and months of a few few stocks we've done this because it's cheap and strenuous very attracted to doing things because it's cheap a and the cost just creating the fuel from necessary to give us those ninety dies of supplies will be enormous so it's a problem the government has don't want to look at but he goes i got green activism preventing us from exploring and developing era and yes but then is we not grains policy the bribery american loans to basically leave is completely vulnerable light apparently believe it everybody will always be nice to australia that's what is extraordinary about that to me is it there's so many educated kind of distracting secure service i am government todd jobs who full so that sort of she lunacy yes yes well the grain like grains published defense policy going into the election is a disaster and late the strides that completely vulnerable i mean the good news is it's it's it's not going to ever that will never have an opportunity to implement that a but i think it's critical that we sustain an interest in defense policy on the on the part of those potties of the sensible santa 'em which means i'm not simply center ron the santa's lift is well it's absolutely vital but the labor party as as it does as as it says it does you know there's a strong supporter see usa salon 'em i i do worry about you know how that is is going to lost over the next ten fifteen years in parliament way they seems to be sort of you know changing demographic effect on how the party's think about some of these issues but some yes you're right the you know the the the big problem is it no one's really focused on these issues at all i mean it's been completely absent in terms of anything any debate and in the late up to the election or or the campaign 'em end us what what am i think there's a bit of a conspiracy of silence decided let's not talk about these issues because some of the messiah hot yeah but they're incredibly important yeah we live in a region of one of the most important in the world it's interesting to me just to contemplate how other countries were approaching this japan for example must be very threaten i'm very concerned on now plainly moving away from a defense for that is purely for heim defense west japan fit into this japan is a sort of a reluctant a middle power i think would be how i describe it they're they're still a very strong saints within they populations of importance of of of a piece constitution of not wanting to a used the self defense forcing peacekeeping for example the huge degree of allergy in in a a japanese popular thinking about taking casualties for example 'em but strategically japan is being pushed into i think becoming a strong guy military player to protect its on interests and china is is a is a probably the number one strategic problem but they geography also are 'em connection to russia 'em and they continue to have a very difficult relationship with both currie in both countries it's on the korean peninsula a one percent of defense spending if you're the japanese economy xt by squad law and if you look at the navy airforce in particular they they're very strong my big concern so in a batch pennies importance of keeping them part of the usa salons network a the day the tequila concludes the icon lie on america anymore as as a key becker of their security is probably the day before japan decides to acquire a nuclear weapons 'em and i personally don't think that would be a good development for the region us i much prefer the idea that america is sort of a nuclear power that's meant managing you clear the nuclear balance in asia pacific sar sustaining that aligns relationship to kick japan in and kick them confident of america's port is is critical and i would observe from many using public lots of australia comply a very constructive role there in terms of keeping america are involved and committed to us into the region and a big part of that is if we have to take i run defense serious american it's not we got strategical reserves in place they need deny but we are serious about among submarine fleet and about michelle defense and a decent size tommy and decent i mean it certainly certainly very very powerful little air force about become more powerful but not big enough to be blocked not big enough waiting any americans to recognize it we absolutely committed to face in the region and then maine's at with okay the stand up for urgent and work with them i i would agree with that i you know i'm personally not particularly a fan of the current president donald trump but trump is right when he's safe the allies and not pulling the white he's really meant nighttime for the most part but i think you know we we can't afford to get complacent that america thinks the win necessarily doing everything we should be americans in the military establishment in their intelligence establishment have a pretty high regard for us and and what else site to you if you talk to people in the pentagon is where we like a strange because on in military operations they will be at the front of the fought just sort of sit on their packs becket vice so so they see is is being prepared it's too tough things i i think there's less confidence around government doing everything it should do on spending on military capability and you know they we should understand that there is a little doubt that you know are we really serious enough frankly there's also in american concern somehow we were not thinking hot enough about the communist party in china and what that means for the security of rage so there's there's a bit of alliance mending i think it has to be done with australia demonstrating it's credentials to watch uae's finally a major fourth most populous nation in the world a largest muslim nation in the world they must look askance at the human rights abuses in the concentration camps and charter today full of muslims a rising a economic path lock it'd the fourth or fifth largest economy by the middle of the century ask questions night about how do we work constructively with indonesia saints made it incredibly important to our future a we have regular hiccups in the relationship in some of the a blonde but i do i think signify that were better knocking on the door and we are walking through the door quickly in terms of engagement yes you know we've been talking for on all aumont time my professional life as as a public servant about the importance of having a strategic relationship with casa what if whatever that means a closer relationship but deeper relationship and and yet the truth of the matter is is with with almost collect regularity the ten years we've had a major crisis in relations which has pushed the two countries a and m it takes some years to actually get back to close engagement in in a way that 'em might actually make us more effective pot and is the way i my my concern is that you know if you take that as as a precedent looking from intonation independence up until now the most likely future instead of that close partnership is we're just gonna bump long a fairly baseline low level of engagement that's not delivering that much and that really would be a shame jonathan if that's the future because i but i think to change it what what a little tight is a big step forward which really only astray there is going to be prepared to do to try to build a strong partnership in military and intelligence and political times with with intonation so i i would like to see you know if you just writing government seriously commit to say we got to work with intonation military a to help their navy for example patrol they walsh's more effectively which if if you think about it just really in our interests you know it'd be fine thing if i could see that we have from the border protection common interests must want more broadly surely yeah yeah 'em important than is generally recognized yeah so look i i feel that it's it's a relationship up until now has has never really ceased to disappoint but if where if we're gonna get any better it's it's going to require striving to be on the front foot going to indonesia with big ideas and the willingness to spend some money to assist them to strengthen their own capabilities the military is becoming a very rapidly a very rapidly becoming a very wealthy country a and i was in a very large number of people i would have thought such not far off the point where which side of decided they could become a major military force and it's on right yeah well it would it it will be starting almost with a blank sheet of paper because the capabilities forces very very limited like like multan vested really be on a building a nami wisey ability to function throughout they they occupy alica 'em in every other area what you'll see is a i to be honest a lot of corruption in making decisions around acquisition of aircraft and chips which have not helped them to do the practical things you'd want intonation air force and navy to the 'em a it's probably the areas where a corporation has been most effective in the last twenty years just being in police and intelligence but even that stops to erode of all the time and so i think what's needed is a major striding if it of investments try to secure that close relationship because you know at the widest level as strategic interests abroad we decide yes adequate austin as a little yeah i i think so too in some you know it looks like from leah intonation election that's a voting is now being counted is as we speak the president's jacoby is back i i wouldn't say he's been the most effective foreign policy president but if he's there for a second son that should make him feel comfortable ally think this could be the right moment for us to reengage with an agenda for okay so how can we make this relationship between and it has been beta thank you very much and data i think what you said it's been incredibly informative little side concerning and it should be something of a cold alarms we need to keep attempting to focus people's minds on what we hands but we wanna preserve in this country rather the constant focus on what we think we don't have john thanks it's been a it's been great phenomenon of really relish the
Is ANOM an anomaly?
"How do you get nearly a thousand of the world's allegedly most dangerous criminals all to us at the just so happens to be controlled by worldwide lower enforcement. Yes this week. I'm debra bichon inside the we it world of and the role played in. What is shaping up to be one of the biggest crime stories of the year. Also dozens of the world's most popular websites like new york times twitch in spotify disappeared off line last week so thanks to one company that means a huge part of the internet that we experience plus i you more likely to swap rights on the dating app on somebody who is vaccinated and we asked arguably the most important question of the pandemic not mealy enough about their asking. Why are we wasting time on zoom when we could be making holograms of java. This is your god to the wake in media technology and culture. My name is marc fennell. Welcome to download this shy. Yes indeed it is a brand new episode of download the and we Joined by brand new gas. The co founder of the daily all sam kozlowski to this shy. Thanks so much great to be here and you blood on the show if you don't blade on the ground that's all i ask. That was weird but anyway let's commit to it also on the show. This week analysts with the australian strategic posts institute. Bogle welcome back. Thanks for having me all right so it turns out you should be careful of what apps download if you happen to be a master criminal identify. You saw the news. What would have been hard to miss. More than eight hundred suspected criminals were arrested worldwide being tricked into using an fbi run encrypted. Messaging app was sure his whole onto questions. Sam i'm going to start with you. Firstly what was the app in question so the app was called a nam and it took a few days for the description of the apps. Economy nine in the media turns. It actually was a handset that you had to buy. That was stripped of all other mobile technologies except for this app and it was away for organiz creams to communicate around the world on what they believed to be a totally off grid platform one of the interesting observations. That a lot of the law enforcement bodies made during the week was they could actually watch the criminals. Screw each other over and there was surprised with how much backstabbing there was in the app itself. You could clock with an egg timer. How long it's gonna take somebody pop out of this and netflix and fourteen books air. Let's start with how they manage to get these criminals. Well alleged criminals to download this app in the first place. Where did that idea even. Come from like sam said i think we need to put a big asterix overall. Discussion of this is. The story is really still rolling out so when we first heard about an australian federal police did a big press conference and they said the idea for this operation and the app had been hatched over a couple of years but once the f. b. i. Released its documents in the us. We started to get more of a nuanced picture of how it'll rolled out so in fact they hadn't built this from scratch. It turned out. There was somebody in the united states Criminal of some sort. I think in california who had started building the platform himself and then when he was in touch with the fbi for some reason he offered them the technology and exchange something like a Less than prison sentences something like this and so from there the fbi started developing the platform in conjunction with the ifp and other place forces inside running it. But what's interesting. I think it's not just that. They built the technology and they had this master k on each message to decrypt and store. It which is what's allowed this slack. Quite insane eagle-eyed picture of international crime but also they had this network of distribution. So they were able to sort of see the app and the fine into various criminal networks. Who in the criminal started essentially recommending it to each other including quite a high profile australian. Turkish man who is now considered to be one of the k. Figures pushing out this device and he's been invited to turn himself in for fear of what might happen to him out. They given his pretty instrumental role in ensuring all these people using essentially a back door platform. So it's sort of a mixture of technology but also the distribution which is really important so as a pace of technology so say something that makes stand out from other forms of science technology for lack of a better term. As far as i understand. No it's more about the distribution of the technology that made this special. There are lots of different types of credit communications that organized criminals us and the idea even of unique handset and essentially a high tech bonifay is not new. Either what's different about this. One is just how quickly it was adopted by organiz crims. There were twenty five million messages intercepted over three years in forty five languages so they got a lot more than they bargained for. And i think that is why they shut down the app at a time of their choosing because the workload was just getting some massive. They couldn't handle. How many messages coming through the daughter in the lex from this app is legally permissible in in all the different territories where they've arrested people that will be the tests. We'll have to wait and see whether the courts consider the kind of information culled from this up to a admissible in court so in australia. Afp indicated that they did rely on a pretty controversial time. Set of laws encryption laws for short or the assistance and access the tola act that was passed a few years ago and they haven't been clear about what provisions of that act they relied on. They say that that won't be revealed until it's sort of disclosed in open court so it could be Some of those tools. I suppose the law gave police to request assistance from a technology company to decrypt technology. In some way more likely it's a computer access warrant which was also part of the set of laws but it seems quite a complicated picture in the united states as well. generally it seems like the united states The fbi when are able to decrypt or access the messages themselves ustralian Federal police would during that on aside. Sending sort of general information back to the us and also mysterious third country was involved. Who were also decrypted in storing the messages and sending back thrice weekly bulletins to the. Us under what kind of legal provisions that was occurring also remains somewhat of a mystery but there are a lot of people. Obviously for many reasons have a lot of questions about the legal provisions relied upon. Because you know pretty unusual For a police force to be running technology that mosey using themselves although not entirely unprecedented. We've kind of seen similar actions take place on dock websites where cops end up running a doc web marketplace but once again you know there's a lot of questions here about laws entrapment. All kinds of things and i will say that. Play out so sam. You've you've spoken to members of the fbi told me through what is learned. And what was the most interesting thing you gleaned out of that. So i had the opportunity to speak to the legal attache for the fbi. In australia anthony russo. Last week in the legal attache is basically the fbi's representative on the grounds. That itself is interesting. The fact that the i. has a presence in australia is fascinating so he leads quite a big team out of camera and the most challenging question i asked him was is there really a need for encrypted anymore if the idea of encryption is now somewhat redundant we're not sure if now what's up is being intercepted by law enforcement and hey guy american response which was that. That's a discussion that we have with our elected representatives and the trade off between safety and security and privacy is one that we're going to have to grapple with now forever very diplomatic et very diplomatic answer also questioned like. What do you mean by. Encryption being redundant because encryption was sort of functioning with this apple was just being. There was a mazda key to decrypt. That the police held simulate. Whatsapp remains encrypted. There's a built in back door. there's another set of eyes on it. Encryption will only get sam right now. It's kinda if we take a bit of a philosophical approach to what encryption and this is rn. And you know we love to do that. In my element encryption is only as good as the number of people that can read the message so that was really interesting to hear from him. The other interesting discussion. That we had was i asked him whether this was just gonna be now a case of komo whether all the crimson winner guys when other app and he was very convinced that this was an historic moment vulcanized crime busting in the world. I think everybody agrees. It's pretty extraordinary in its scale. You know the number of devices out there that were being used the number of mrs. Oh being intercepted. Even the number of arrests have been made off the back of data gleaned from this product. I mean is extraordinary and it does point to a bigger picture in criminal communications. I will Caveat that it's not something. I'm expert in but in general like they have been other platforms. That have attempted something similar to phnom but without the being back by the fbi bid. that was phantom. you'll incur crypt. they keep getting shut down by law enforcement. And now you have a wildly popular platform having been ron essentially by law enforcement. So if i was running some kind of illegal operation. I would be pretty unsure where to turn i mean. These criminals do seem unwilling or they would prefer to use something off the shelf. Something custom built for their purposes rather than using say an iphone with signal. And you do wonder at this point. Where the iphone with a signal app would have been far more secure than an data shows. What you're listening to. It is your god. The week in media technology and culture guests this week sam kozlowski from the daily ours and arrow burgle from the australian stategic policy institute puck fennell my name and last week roundabout tuesday. You might have had trouble. Accessing a range of websites affected jaw-dropping number of websites around the world suddenly became unavailable and took a little while to workout. Why and actually it unveiled a little bit about how the internet works area. What exactly happened so it turns out that a company called falsely was behind the breakdown and falsely. What's known as a cdn or content delivery network basically a cdn helps you get to your websites foster they kind of are typically or rent space at a range of dada centers across the world. So that say when you want to access the new york times website you accessing version of the new york times. That's on a data center or on a server close to you may be one in sydney. If you're in sydney rather than having to fitch the version of that website from the united states so it just adds or removes time makes the split second loading time much faster and so what happened with the cdn with falsely. They had some kind of configuration era by all accounts that were on the off line for about one hour and a cyber attack of some sort has been pretty much discounted this point. It was kind of a mistake that in but a mistake that knocked off just innumerable websites. I mean news outlets but government serves as websites and it really does. Point to some of the vulnerabilities internet infrastructure. Which i'm sure we're going to get into so we're talking about the new york times. The baby say financial times the guardian. Read it spotify. Twitch stack overflow get hub. What does that tell you about You know just how diversified our internet structure. Actually all kind of isn't it tells us that we have a fragile construction of the internet. That way working within a really interesting point here. Is that the stock price. V vastly actually went up twelve percent in the day after this disaster because everybody realized how many clients they well. I think it's a matter of fossils. Name was in the news a lot and that was a lot of all news. Good news but also. They were promoting. How quickly they responded to this disaster and the fifty five minute turnaround that they got everything back working and that was saying a good result i think by the markets but i users like us it shows that something very quickly can shut down some of the main ways that not only we communicate but that we shop and that we for example when it shut down the british government's website that's a major of public infrastructure So yeah it was. It was concerning to to live through. It was about eight thirty pm here in sydney Happened and it was a true shock to not be able to get onto news websites when you said earlier that it was ruled out that it was likely at an attack. What me through that. Why was it ruled out. Well the company itself hasn't come out and said that it was. I think if if there had been something like that they would have had to come out and say so under various sort of reporting provisions in the us and other countries where they operate but also other people were looking at it and the sort of Speed with which were they were able to get back online kind of indicated that they had full control of their systems and they went battling something To toward but you know it shows just one of those little mistakes can really screw things up basically i. We saw something similar in queens recently. Where i think a similar sort of configuration era. Dr internet out for much of queensland For a couple of hours and that's distinct even from some of those big actual attacks we've seen in recent years you might remember the mirai net that did a denial of service attack directed using All kinds of Internet of things devices fridges modems etcetera and just directed a strain of traffic at a dns provider. And that's kind of the phone book of the internet for one of a better way to put. It also knocked all these kinds of websites. Offline amazon twitter sir. It doesn't it could be a cyber attack. It could be a configuration era. But there are a lot of ways that the internet can be Functionality of what you want to do on the internet can be removed. It's also when i was looking at st the cdn landscape this week. There's really not many players in the field so it's going to be easy for fastly to keep their market share. Move on with the fact that they've had stuff and got back on their fate. They've put it down to a bug that was implemented in customer rivera vacation tool in mid-may that only made itself known to the systems on the not the outage so it would be pretty remarkable if they went back on that and said that there was some sort of seen this dot attack. I think we can rule that out easily. Preventable sam the. Ceo falsely was asked that question and the answer that he gave was basically. We do the best that we can. Which was. I thought quite a facebook response. They've often come out and said we always have as much checks and balances in place up. Inevitably bad stuff's going to happen. So yes it is preventable but just with any other technology you know what you don't know So i think there's no way that a company could come out steadfast and say we are immune from the same bugged falsely experienced loss weight. You can never be one hundred percent sure that your system is going to operate. All the time is bugs that can creeping. They are Ways that someone can just hit the wrong button you know. I think it's good for companies to come out and be as transparent and honest as possible about the areas that cause incidents like that because it helps other companies of the shirley about other companies that perform similar functions to get on top of this stuff and yeah more transparency. The better on this kind of thing. I think it's interesting. We wouldn't say this about an aircraft. We wouldn't say we're doing the best. We can might go out for one hour a year. i mean i'm fairly sure did do that at some point in the last couple of days but at this point though i think you have to look at different websites differently. I think the way that they re took down. Uk government website to something to take a closer look at it. I don't think it's the end of world. If twitter arrow the new york times goes down for an hour but we need to look carefully at critical services. Say a bushfire. Notification website went down in australia for an hour. During bushfire season that could be truly significant so we need to ensure and make sure our governments are ensuring that certain platforms are more resilient than the rest of the internet download. The is listening to it. Is your god to the week in media technology and culture and show hands who seek of zoom. What if you could replace with a mirror in your house that reflects i holler graham. Like reflection of a person in a different spice. That is the promise. I guess you could call it off. A new service that google has been passing and honestly just want to talk about holograms and whether or not. They're a real thing on arrow. Can you explain exactly what it is. Google of touted do so with your standard low skepticism. I enjoy the graduation. Well there's well once again we're talking about a piece of technology that none of us will get any closer look then writing about it or what you need you video for many years anyway. Here's how it works. Google glass twenty twenty one. Mom yes so. Google called. I think magic window or magic mirror of some sort and it beats in in existence in just a few google offices. Sorry it's certainly not on wide release and not even on wide release within google. But how i understand it. Works is kind of a variety of depth capshaw senses and cameras to record. Somebody's face transmit that face and movement over to the matching mirror on the other side and display that in kind of a three d. as lifelike display as possible with very little light. And i think that's what's really interesting here that lack of light and according to this wired article i read where they got to have a close look at it. It was almost real time. And that's what you want. Certainly if you're trying to build this more intimate experience with a hologram Rather than that kind of tutti flatness that we're all familiar with the firm. More uncountable other videoconferencing devices. Are you ready for your future. I feel like these guys sat around table and went. What if we can do. Princess layoff as and then somebody said no no no. What if we could do the mirror from harry potter fans. They've run with that idea. Because i've always thought the first move into this space would pay the princess. Leia someone pops up in the palm of your hand. So it's interesting to say that obviously a lot of investment has gone into making something that is actually more structured in its appearance but also then not as easily replicable like holograms as they were sort of posited. Science fiction so the hall the star trek and the princess live from this you. Can't you need a victim to project against bicycle. And i think the what they've offered here and again like you know all the caveats about the fact that it doesn't actually exist yet. But i think what they've offered here is get kind to say how it would sit in the house. You could kind of say how you use it and also you know credit to them picking them moment you. We've had eighteen months of people being thoroughly sick of zoom. I mean if nothing else it's a it's a pay our reflection on that. To be honest i will take this point. I would much rather if you're listening on the podcast. I'll be obvious areas not in the room with us. She's joining us from the cameras studios and i would. I would gratefully take a. We'd mirror in the corner of the room to be able to see you. Roll your eyes at me. That would be great. Is i'd love to see a face to talk. Would you buy one month. Yeah in hoppy by one. Even if it's some it's literally like a telephone birth. You'd have to have in the corner of your kids. Have too much stuff. They can clear on spice right. Hey kids and bringing home into booth so okay. So let's talk about a little bit about whether their competitors to this are the other hologram adjacent technologies out there. That are doing something similar sam. There's no competitive. That's gone to market with a retail friendly product. And i think that is a really important part of this discussion. Is these technologies that as you said before. Take a room to build. So it's essentially an early duration of a computer. Nobody's mastered the retail friendly hologram in general when you look at this tech often uses headset. So it's more in that sort of via space. We have to see yourself out with the headset and stuff. And that's where the appeal comes in here to bid. I guess in that you don't have to put on the gear. You just have to step into a birth. I can't say the peel but in terms of the zoom thing. I think a lot of people using these video chat technology really like on guard so once again. I'm a bit i guess. Maybe it's skeptical of having to have such a significant pace of infrastructure in the corner of a room where these kinds of chats take place and they can really happen. You know based on what. I saw of the google stalin project one on one. So you can't have that core group conference thing we were all using for there is increasing use of projected technologies for really amazing purposes. The kadarshian example is a great one of its use in society. A really good example is the way that they had documenting holocaust survivor testimony. So the holocaust survivors can be projected in in somewhat of a three-day formed and school. Children can actually ask questions. And there are thousands of prerecorded responses for students of many coming generation to engage with as close to a living example of a survivor as possible. And i think that's an incredible use of hologram technology Obviously the limitation there as as all prerecorded. But there's some really smart people working on money and responses so that it feels as as legitimate as possible are. Are they good examples. If a hologram esque uses out there that you like you think it worth investing in. I mean as sam said that example does sound like very worth while use of the technology. They've been similar kind of stunts. Perhaps to the more cut ashen Kanye west example where they had like true pock comeback. A concert and things like that. These technologies evolve always going to be stunt uses and then around the edges that sort of longer term potentially more useful uses as well. So i don't wanna be too skeptical. But i not to be honest. The hologram technology space. I think i'm going to give it another decade and then come back to it. Download the show is it. Is you'll wake and media technology and culture very quickly before we would you be more likely to die to person if they had been vaccinated or not. That is an idea that has been brought in the uk with a number of dining apps tinder match hinge bamboo and all of the rest of them offering the ability to tag whether or not. You've been vaccinated. And i wanted to do this because i just want to say if you can have a skeptical off sam. Good idea bad idea. I feel like. I have to keep playing the hook guy. I think it's a great idea. I think it's the more information you can get about a possible partner of the better. We already digitalized. Health records we. We're used to that. I am totally open to the idea of dating someone. I'd probably still go on a date with somebody. If they said they were open to being vaccinated doesn't have to be a prerequisite to a bit hard right now. You know what phases. We're all in but yes i. It's an interesting question that That that would come up on a date with me so you might as well get that out of the way. I broke out of the national radio. Reo do not feel like you have to play the skeptical. The field is wide open for you here. Do you think it's a good idea. Rabanne idea. I wanna surprise me. Because i'm going to say it's actually a good idea. The show has a happy ending. Yeah because you know. I i like just to walk back. The uk health department or one of this social services departments over there has partnered with like ten match. Bumble i think he jeevan and so. If you put a sticker on your says you've been vaccinated. You get access to all kinds of special features so you get like tinder boost booster profile or super like things like this so that aside and not actually attaching it to your medical records. It's just a voluntary sticker. So i guess you sort of have to rely on people's trustworthiness there to believe whether they're vaccinated unawed according to their dating profile but when you look at the reasons why people get vaccinated overall. They're kind of steps in the decision. Making you're building a social incentive to get people vaccinated the number one one. We having significant problems with here in australia is access firstly. We'll have to be get vaccine full. Stop place what an adl. Secondly you know you have these ideas around community example and this is where this tap scene when you see your friends and family when you see your community people you looked up to people like getting vaccinated. Even if you might have some questions doubts you're more likely to investigate and get vaccinated and then there's that next point which is incentives so actually they and incentives being offered for people to get vaccinated gifts so just the reward of social approval. And that's where this comes into so for many reasons. I think it's a pretty interesting and worthwhile experiment. If it was linked to your medical records. I would have a different point of view but given its voluntary given the situation. uk offered. Do you think it helps with vaccine. Hesitancy lodge sam. I think it's a good way to seek to other people that you're super proud of your vaccination status So when we're striving for something as close to herd immunity as we can through head. Vaccinations the more that we can emphasize that. It's a positive thing whether that means you land a dash and that hit with the particularly young age group that a freebie that would probably also with a young age group up the benefits. Wouldn't he young age group. I think i think it's worthwhile. Yeah you get a free house. Deposit these things. Have you heard about the money in ohio. All what's the one that if you get vaccinated you go into a lottery to win a million bucks and they're giving a million dollars a week. Yeah it's funny. I heard from a digital health. Esus to like it. Sounds like counterintuitive but actually did the maths on how much money you spend on. Public awareness campaigns the kind of meteor attention. Doing something. like back it's compares very favorable to spending in a certain amount of money on public health campaign in that particular part of the world. Obviously i still think there's probably gonna don't. That is not doing that. But they're saying that the amount of publicity you get out of an event like that would actually equal too far more than the million dolla- pat that you would get but that is a conversation for another time arrow boggle. Thank you so much coming back on down the shy thanks. Mel and sam kozlovsky house. Experience unreal bloodshed. Have much room yet. And have you Thank you so much. Please come back and do the show small and with that. I shall leave you. Thank you for listening to another episode down my this shark.
Mysterious firing at high-security lab points to larger issues, say former colleagues
"Hi damon fareless host of hunting warhead from. Cbc podcasts in the norwegian newspaper. Vg hunting warhead follows a global team of police and journalists says the attempt to dismantle a massive network of predators on the dark web winner of the grand prize for best investigative reporting of the new york festivals and recommended by the guardian vulture and the global mail. You can find hunting warhead on. Cbc listen or wherever you get your podcasts. This is a cbc podcast. Doctors django chu and her. Biologists husband cutting chung. We're both escorted from the national microbiology. Lab in winnipeg two years ago. They were then fired last january with no explanation. There has been speculation ever since about the possibility of international espionage. Lots of questions and deflections about the case in parliament the case is under rcmp investigation the whole saga raises questions about the winnipeg lab intelligence sharing and canada's policies on foreign students and now two former colleagues. Dr chew are speaking out and sharing new pieces of the puzzle. The karen paul's has been tracking this story. She joins me now. Good morning karen. Good morning you've been talking to some of the people who knew and worked with. dr chu. what are they telling you well mark. They're saying that the story is not quite what we've heard up till now that doctors django chu is not a spy. We spoke to gary kobe. Who is her former boss at the national microbiology lab. They worked together on the ebola vaccine that saved thousands of lives in africa earlier in this decade They got international acclaim. She's she's a star she's a star scientist and he spoke to her after she and her husband and all of her students were evicted from the lab. He told us a little bit about that conversation. Here's what he had to say. Take a listen. I know character. I know that she's a very ethical person. She has a very strong work ethic. I know she has her life on the line to help people in africa the career on the line of people in africa. And she's never done anything in my view that would have compromised. You know anything in terms of the institution for which he worked. She was a very loyal person at the time she was there. You know from own words to me. She told me this is a misunderstanding. And i don't know why You know i was walked out of the building should understand. She was From the bottom of of are saying that this is a misunderstanding. They are gonna realize that's what it is and you know i don't know that she was necessarily expecting apologies or anything like this that she thought that it was okay to look into this and that people will come by and dollar least on back to work. Dr chu and her husband is we mentioned are both under rcmp investigation. Also questions about a shipment of viruses. Dr chew sent to wuhan china. What does gary copen shirt think is happening here right. I'll get to the shipment but even before that there was something else happening. And i got some of this information through eight tip travel reports. I found that a doctor who had been traveling back to china regularly Between two thousand seventeen and eighteen to help set up the level for lab in wuhan china that would be the counterpart to the one in winnipeg capable of dealing with the most dangerous pathogens in the world. She was training scientists and technicians. She was sharing best practices and operating procedures and carpenter. Says that's what got flagged. Initially there were concerns that she was sharing biosafety information that might be proprietary to the winnipeg lab and might provide a bit of security conflict. A vulnerability giving insight into what was happening at the lab here. So the shipment of ebola and pa- came after that after she'd been back and forth to set up that lab and it's important to note. Actually that the shipment was questioned by her superiors in those eight tip documents. They asked you know who wanted to. Who wanted the shipment. Why did they want it. Why did winnipeg have to send it. Couldn't they get it from someplace else. Ultimately though that shipment was approved it went on an air canada flight to beijing and then onto wuhan that particular piece of the story is generating a lot of conspiracy theories. And i have to add here that there were no corona viruses in that shipment and neither of the viruses sent have anything to do with this cove nineteen pandemic but but sharing best practices that sounds kind of benign is that is that why she and her husband were fired. Well according to kobe dirt not quite. After those trips to china the public health agency also discovered her name onto patents registered by chinese agencies on technologies that were sort of related to the work. She was doing at the lab in winnipeg. Now the public health agency and the lab were not on those patents which means candidate would have a really hard time getting any royalties associated with sales of that if it would if it ever went to market so so the issue there is this. This could be a conflict of interest. Exactly i mean if you're a federal public servants and you invent something. Ottawa owns it. You don't so you're not allowed to file for a patent overseas without the minister's permission. I've asked to the public health agency. We don't know if that happened here or not. Given the concern it raised probably not now. Interestingly copen your says that shoe told him she didn't know her names were on those patents and she actually found the second one in flagged it to the public health agency herself. He says the agency handle this all really badly and it all of this could have been avoided with a little better communication and transparency. Take a listen to what he says. When you don't have an open challenge communication it gets. And i think that's where we are. We are in two years in investigation by the rcmp. That is not including. We are in the enforcement Station where the public of the candidates not sharing there is is not sharing their findings to the apartment canada. I mean this is. This is on unheard of to me above all this. I'll tell you what i'm very worried about is that this lack of transparency is gonna undermine confidence and trust of the public into those institution and into those processes. Okay so that's the intellectual property part of this story but what about the chinese scientists. Dr choose students. They were also evicted from the lab. Which is gary coleman. Sure say about that. Well i mean he points out. That canada likes to attract brilliant foreign students. It's good for our research. It's good for our universities. The best in the brightest studying and working here it's also a good form of income for universities but in this case there are concerns about. How at least one of them and possibly more got access to the lab with some affiliations. That are a little troubling to what kind of affiliations we talking about here. Well one of the students named fi who yan has published work on behalf of the academy for military sciences in china. So what makes that a problem. Well it is a research arm of the people's liberation army of china it defends the communist party's interests and it's well known to have a bio weapons research program so canada doesn't want that sort of work happening in its lab and just to be really clear. We don't know what i who yan was doing. In the winnipeg loud the public health agency won't tell us but we do know that he does research on ebola and lassa viruses which are both deadly to humans and classified as possible bioweapons concerned. So how does somebody with those kinds of affiliations. Then end up in the winnipeg lab. Well and that's the big question. The lab does have to follow federal government steps for three levels of security clearance and working. There needs that the you know the cleaning staff to the scientists everybody the lowest levels for jobs requiring unsupervised access to protect information assets or facilities like the lab is called reliability status. Now that looks at whether someone's honest and can be trusted to serve protect the employer's interests. The next levels are secret. And top secret clearance. Both of those categories assess a person's loyalty to canada and determine whether they might be involved in anything that could constitute a threat to the security of canada and they involve deep background checks by ceases and the rcmp. That go back ten years and they also include a loyalty to canada tests. I didn't even know something. Like that. existed loyalty okay. So the checks are there but still. How did chinese military affiliated scientists get access to that lab. Well i mean there are all kinds of different ways to get into the lab. I've gotten into the lab on a visitor's pass which can be approved within days there's that reliability status also has a category of limitations. So you could go in get unsupervised access but limitations to things like the it the network the government. Email the scientific network inside the lab that we're all. The scientists are sharing data and information plugged into all the technology But i've been told by people inside the loud that those limitations are sometimes ignored. They come in the students come in under that status but once they get their their supervisor might say oh you know. They need email and they need to be able to access this information. So can we get them hooked up and that takes place locally on the ground without any of those extra background checks by the pnc says so. I spoke to another scientist. Who used to work at the national microbiology lab here for more than a decade. And he believes that some of chew students were fast tracked by management because she needed them in the lab quickly to work on the research that she was doing. She didn't want to have to wait s- months or maybe years to get them cleared. So here's a little bit of what that scientists told me and mark. We're not identifying him. He's concerned about his livelihood. Someone else's reading his words so here's some of what he said so for them to get security clearance they have to ten years of their history and then the arts and ceases calls that government in finds out if they are who they say they are. That's why some international ones take so long and that's also another reason why again the upper management will sometimes screwed around that in order to keep science going. I've worked at long enough that you see people wandering around where they shouldn't be just because there's a chaperone generally you're not with that personal the time you'll send them to the lab. They'll do their work. You'll be in your office. And then they can walk around and do what they want if you have a bunch of people coming in and you have management which is not very keen on managing and just sort of doing what they want. This could be something that fell through the cracks without question animal. They have a lot of problems that they're trying to cover up. It would not surprise me at all if they don't want to release the information because it's going to show how incompetent upper management was. They're scapegoating on chew. Why because they don't wanna lose their jobs so so karen. What does canada's public health agency have to say about all this much. I mean the department says a can't share information without permission now from the attorney general or the federal courts. Opposition politicians have been demanding. These answers for months in the house of commons but the agency is refusing to release uncensored documents with some of those answers and the federal government's. Actually taking this to court now to get those documents sealed saying they could have national security implications or privacy concerns. What about ceases and the have they told you anything while you investigation on this. I have a hunch it'd be no you know this. This will never confirm or deny anything to do with its cases. The won't comment on ongoing investigation. And what about dr chu. where where. Where's she what does she to say. We'd love to talk to her. We don't know exactly where she is. I visited her home in winnipeg several times. The last time i visited someone answered the door wouldn't confirm where they are but said that he would get a message to them where wherever they are and if they're listening you're still waiting for them. We would love to hear from them. The mystery may only be solved when she comes forward to tell her story or those uncensored documents are released. Okay karen great work. Keep up the digging and we'll be following the story along with you thank you that was. Cbc national reporter. Karen paul's you know you're smart funny friends who always seem to have the best celebrity gossip. I'm talking about the ones who always know. We should be watching reading or listening to or what have you could pick their brains every week. Pop chat is a brand new podcast. But does exactly that and feels like spending time with your best friend. So join me. Alouine mahmoud and a panel of the smartest culture critics that i know as we dissect the discourse but also have a great time. Doing it enjoy a business. Upgrade during technologies black friday july event get savings up to fifty percent off and take your office with you with windows. Ten pro plus get special pricing on dell servers and more along with financing with dell financial services. Call eight seven seven asked dell well in twenty twenty more than five hundred thousand. International students held study permits for canada. And of course most of those don't have access to sensitive information but it's something that government agencies and universities universities are taking notice of kristen law practice a professor at the royal military college at queen's university is also a senior fellow at the mcdonald laureate institute. good morning. good morning chris. What you've you've heard our discussion with karen and her investigation. What do you make of. Dr choose former colleagues have had to say about this. I think a useful way to start. The conversation might be with a quote from the most recent redacted public report that the canadian insecure intelligence service issued and it reads like this china russia also target non-governmental organizations in canada including academic institutions the private sector and civil society in twenty twenty the people's republic of china russian of the foreign states. Continue to court the gather political economic and military information in canada through targeted threat activities in support of their own state development. Goals to accomplish this. The states take advantage of the collaborative transparent and open nature of canada's government economy and society often using traditional collectors including those with little or no formal intelligence training such as researchers private entities and other third parties to collect information and expertise of value on behalf of the states. I would say what we see. Here is a tension between the research. Culture of the winnipeg lab. They had some world class researchers and inherently anything. that's government funded needs to show that it is performing and is providing value for money the government of canada and for canadian tax payers and the national security components of the lab and in canada. We have not had the sort of national security culture baked into government. The way the united states australia the kingdom has and so as a result here it appears that people in management made a decision that the research culture should take precedence over the national security culture and that meant that management had some responsibility for skirting the security protocols that are standard in the government of canada when people are hired into particular positions and depending on what the position at the institution which were into which they're hired. I would also say that what we have here is perhaps a misunderstanding of the obligations that federal civil servants have when they conduct research on behalf of the government of canada. That is funded by canadian taxpayers. And they're very specific in via vehicle rules that all employees are aware of in terms of the intellectual property that they generate employees of the wuhan. Lab are not professors. They are they do not have academic freedom. They are employees of the federal government. And so they need to follow the processes in place and so The what we see here is is inherently problematic especially in the lab that was built with french cooperation. But we know that since it was opened in two thousand seventeen The assurances that china had given france in term of collaboration have not been met and that francis had no access to this lab. So that would have been already some awareness by ceases that there are challenges around the collaboration with the hand up by the international community. So i'm for for you. I can hear that the alarm bells are certainly ringing. And i read. Recently that alberta's government has asked its research universities to put a pause on any new partnerships with links to the chinese government. It do you think that that's a move that that more institutions should be making now or. Is that an overreaction. The i've written as early as twenty eighteen. About collaboration by canadian universities highly problematic institutions in china. There is a lengthy and detailed report From that year by the australian strategic policy institute detailing the many problematic collaborations that universities around the world have canada however stood out as having three universities in the top ten in terms of The nature the quantity and the quality of problematic collaborations by canadian researchers with chinese institutions that are considered exceptionally high risk of adopting those collaborations for the purpose of dual use technology and potentially weaponising those collaborations in two thousand nineteen alone. There were one hundred and forty thousand. Chinese international students in canada. So how do you avoid casting. suspicion on. Those students bringing their valuable research ideas to canada. Something that this country wants and is trying to encourage. It is important that we distinguish between a chinese nationals and the chinese regime Is also important that we distinguish different types of research there many areas where we have common interests with china. Think of climate change for instance. But we want to ensure that we worked together In terms of making this world a cleaner place and the more sustainable place yet when we work in areas that lent themselves to the adaptation for dual use technologies such as bio security. Which is precisely why we didn't pick lab as class is classified as a level for lab and there are only four dozen or so of these labs in the world or when we work in eras that are directly related for instance to highly sensitive intelligence. Defense research We need to be much more conscientious in terms of the potential risk That nationals from countries that at times can behave rather hostile and adversary towards. Canada may be looking to capitalize because these are very complex technologies especially security. And so if you're trying to get ahead one way to do that is to try to adopt intellectual properly improperly and we know that china has the chinese regime has at times had a track record where exfiltrated data from universities in improper as i point to the two thousand eighteen exfiltration of a massive data heap from the australian national university which is not just a university but has a special mandate to serve the commonwealth government in australia so we know that research entities with particular relation to democratic allied governments australia canada. Maybe a direct target By the chinese regime and it security intelligence defense institutions. This story clearly not over yet. What are you expecting next. What do you wanna hear next. We will and we've only got about thirty seconds so put you on the spot there but just let us know what. What's the big piece. That's missing piece here. I think we need to bake in a national security culture into the federal government into the way the federal government spends. It's billions of dollars in research. Funding through the tri councils. And we need to make sure that can eating. Numerous is in general and the fifteen research universities in canada step up and realize that we are being a target of a foreign espionage by adversarial states and need to ensure that we have the proper security protocols for both personnel. Data's well as intellectual property that is being generated in place to avoid exfiltration and great to get your perspective on this very important story. Thank you so much for your time. It's been my pleasure. Thank you mark. Christian yelich break is a professor at the royal military college in queens university. Also a senior fellow at the mcdonald. Laurie institute and editor in chief of the canadian military journal. He also has a new book coming out called intelligence as democratic statecraft for more. Cbc podcasts go to cbc dot ca slash podcasts.
Coronavirus falsehoods spread with alarming speed
"Support for the world comes from hint water. Hint is water infused with fruit essences like watermelon and blackberry no sweeteners no calories in stores or delivered direct to your door from drink hint dot com hint water with a touch of true fruit flavor. I WanNa tell you about another show you might enjoy Ted ex shorts hosted by Tosa Leoni tech shorts will immerse you in surprising knowledge fresh perspectives and moving stories from some of the most compelling tech's community talks out there. Store each day with short eye-opening ideas on Apple podcasts spotify or wherever you listen. False information about the corona virus is everywhere. So who's spreading it though vast majority thirty, eight percent of the covy information wasn't association with the name of the president of the United. States. I'm Marco Werman also today, the daughter of a Holocaust survivor faces antisemitic harassment and twenty twenty. America the experience gave me a newfound understanding of what my family might have felt like as targets of hate. And a Danish energy company was hooked on fossil fuels. Now, it's a green powerhouse. Denmark is the size of Maryland and yet they compete with China for the number one manufacturing of winter ones those stories and more today you're on the world. I'm Marco Werman this is the world could make it here today. Falsehoods and conspiracy theories involving covid nineteen are ricocheting around the globe in many cases spreading faster than the disease itself. Execute judgment own you nine. Hana virus a biological weapon well, when the Communist Party threatens to attack America by withholding critical medical supplies that is a biological weapon we don't really know how the data's being collected. That we're this is the curate here going into mass production. In this is going to save change the world. So you hold a blow dryer in front of your face and you inhale with you nose and it kills all the viruses in your nose. Seen the. Disinfectant. Knocks it out in a minute? Minute, and is there a way we can do something like that to be clear? That is all misinformation it might make for a laugh but potentially deadly disease is anything but funny a new study from Cornell University finds that the main drivers of all this misinformation are just a small handful of sources and at the top of the list President Donald Trump Sarah Eventua- is the study's lead author. We looked at thirty, eight million articles in English language traditional media, and within that pool about one point one million articles contain some kind of misinformation and when we drill down further research that there are about eleven sub-topics that really dominate the misinformation landscape and within those eleven sub-topics, there is one that is by far the biggest sub topic miracle cures. And when we drill in further and look at those Miracle Cure topics which included Hydroxy Clark win UV disinfectant. What we see is that's often associated with particular people global prominence in particular the president of the United States. So what role is president trump's social media feed playing not just in the US. But globally, how do people outside the US pickup on trump's misinformation Also ask question what role is the media really playing and amplifying the voices of a small number of people who happen to have a big platform. We found that sixteen percent of the coverage was actually fact checking, which is great and so I think as we approach a potential second wave of an infidel just as we've approached a second wave of the pandemic. Vaccines. Begin to become available at a really important role for the media to play in flattening that second Info denic curve. In food. That's a new word it is and it was coined by the World Health Organization and of course, with social media access to so much information that we have today it really has become a serious concern in fighting the pandemic. Right. Another findings of your study Sarah, a was conspiracy theories. The idea that sinister groups are behind pandemic that accounted for almost half the misinformation cited what kind of conspiracy theories dominated. A range of different conspiracy theories that come up ranging from five G. to bet soup a range of different things that sort of came and went over the period between January and may did you dive into the psychology of how misinformation spreads? Why do people like President Trump peddle falsehoods? Is it ignorance or something more nefarious I? Think it ranges to a great extent I. Mean, there are certainly some groups that spread misinformation or disinformation for political gain or financial gain. But I think what we saw was that many of the topics misinformation topics came and went and may have been amplified by fringe groups or not. But what was interesting was that the majority of the amplification really came from a very small number of prominent people with large platforms. What is being done to try to stop the spread of misinformation of false news canopy stopped? I think that the media has a huge role to A. Percentage, of fact, checking that we saw in the study be a greater portion of the misinformation coverage around Covid nineteen I think the media has a tremendous role to play in preventing future Info Dynamics and really being aware of the risk of false balance in reporting and of course, using bona fide experts as sources is really key. So evangi Directs Universities Alliance for Science She's the lead author of a new study on the vast reaches of Corona virus misinformation. Sarah. Thank you for being with. US thank you so much. When president trump told the so-called proud boys to stand back and stand by during Tuesday night's debate it was deeply troublesome for a Lotta people and for obvious reasons, the anti-defamation League describes this particular group as a quote dangerous strain of far-right extremists including members who are violent and some who espoused white supremacist views. In the right environment hateful ideologies congest fester. Here's a concrete example of what I mean had happened to someone. You heard about on the show a few years ago Daphne Guys Mar had recently published a book about her Dutch Jewish grandparents lives during World War Two they were given a hiding shelter from the Nazis in a church in Rotterdam Daphne's mother Miriam Guys Mar than a girl was also in hiding in two thousand fifteen. I met both of them to hear their story of survival during the war. The church is still there today with a plaque out front explaining. Its role hiding Jews during the war where physically in the church were they in a little F- in the roof of the transit says, yeah. You you tell Marian guys Mars talking to her daughter Daphne Their Daphne has become the keeper of her parents and grandparents history. She knows her story. Well, then minister went to the caretaker of the church and said I would like you to help me create a place for this Jewish couple to hide the caretaker said well, I never told you this, but there's another Jewish family that's been hiding in the attic for a year already. So they made a second hiding place. So they were mirror images on either side of the organ. Pipes. That was in two, thousand fifteen since then Mariam Guys Mar has died Daphne wrote a book called invisible years about the whole ordeal. Last month Daphne was giving an online presentation of her book to a group of Holocaust survivors and their families in Connecticut when the presentation was hacked. Daphne guys more joins me from New Haven Connecticut what happened during this presentation back in August Daphne. The presentation started with a page from my grandfather's diary where he documented a Nazi raid on the church where he was hiding, which was explained in that clip you just played. And so when I started the presentation and I had this image of the diary as the first slide, if you will at first I, thought there was something wrong with my slides because I started seeing little blue letters on them and that turned into antisemitic graffiti. My first reaction was that I was horrified and enraged and thought that perhaps we should stop but the moderator encouraged me to continue. It was really important to the folks voices of hope that we not let them stop us and so I continued with the presentation. I was in a bit of shock and somehow able to separate myself from what was happening at. It was kind of like I was on autopilot because there were so many people on this zoom presentation it took them over fifteen minutes to block the person or persons who were creating this this hateful graffiti on top of the presentation. Also there was an audio hack. Right were you hearing? Yes. While swastikas and killed Jews and and worse where being written somebody shouted out the Holocaust never happened. Why did you feel? Daphne was important to continue the presentation even while all this was going on. It's so important not to be silent or silenced. So what the attackers were doing where they were trying to intimidate and shut us down and silence, and we were all in agreement that we weren't going to let that happen and you kept going. To be clear you do not know who did this a group and individual or what right? No. No. Voices of hope notified the police of the tate crime and the news media and the Anti Defamation League and the police have been looking into it and the one person who they have identified is in Canada. So the fact that it's in another country mix more complicated. So it's ongoing. I mean we've met before you sound emotionally spent What's it been like the last few weeks the experience give me a newfound understanding of what my family might have felt like as targets of hate by people who knew nothing about them. Daphne, how do you carry on with your own story that is informing the public that the whole did happen and we need to be vigilant that doesn't happen again when you are seeing signs of the opposite. I think it's it's really important to continue telling the story and my parents and many others survivors. Will for the first fifty years, they didn't say anything because that's what they had to do to be able to move on. But then in their eighties nineties, they started telling their stories and going to community centers in school groups, and now for the most part, they're not here anymore you keep telling their stories I feel really. Fortunate and responsible to be the holder of this archive to create this book do you see more presentations? Coming up for invisible years yes. There are already some scheduled for the fall and it's important to continue to do them. Daphne guys, Mar, the book about her mother and grandparents story of survival during World War Two in the Netherlands is called invisible years Daphne. Thank you very much for telling us the story. Thank you so much for having me. When you think of debates, the word civil probably does not come to mind right now not going to answer the question. The question in us. Justice Marash left. Would you And who is that was of course, president trump and former vice president joe. Biden mixing it up on Tuesday night if you need a debate pallet cleanser and who among says, doesn't may I suggest checking out what happened in new? Zealand last night. Type, Takato there is even team days to go welcome to the use of decision twenty twenty leaders debated in a debate heavy on issues and light on personal attacks. The moderator Patrick Gower ask questions about New Zealand's housing problems, national debt, and its response to the coronavirus. The two candidates prime minister just are dern and challenger Judith Collins provided detailed answers and plans. We established a criteria that sees they should not be community transmission in Australia when we album. Tenets listened and agreed on some points even complimented each other. Out there, the celebrity prime minister. So you. Maine's Saadoun. Is that. Oversees people know who you are and I think that's lovely. A debate? So it did get heated at times with some subtle digs. The world is changing unfortunately Judith Collins does not want to change with it and lease we move quickly we lose an opportunity. Just. Going to use my agent Smith, I'm happy to use my experience at. We ought Collins Sixty, one, prime it is forty. The two candidates also clashed on issues like education and weather to legalise cannabis but there were no sharp personal attacks. No accusations of lying just disagreements in other words debate. New. Zealand with a healthy reminder of the way it's supposed to work coming up next on today's program how Denmark came to control the wind game and later students in Thailand behaving badly and I mean seriously misbehaving. But not the way you might be thinking you're listening to the world I'm Marco. Werman you're listening to the world. Denmark announced this week that it's on track to meet its ambitious climate change goals. By twenty thirty, it's aiming to cut carbon emissions seventy percent from nineteen ninety levels. It won't be cheap climate, Minister Dan Yorke Nsen says, it'll cost billions of dollars inland their point most potent escape avail shown sure. But he says, it will also create jobs in the renewable energy. Sector Denmark is a big player in wind energy. In the last decade, a major Danish utility has transitioned away from fossil fuels and become the world's biggest or wind developer. How did they make the change? That's now on the big fix? We have come here to let you know that change is coming whether you like it or not. Can we turn this around to have no other option the only option that we have succeeded? What we do now. And in the next few years. Will. Affect. The next few. Years. The world's Anna. Customer. Reports on the reinvention of the Danish energy company Erstad Erstad produces the electricity that powers of V of Danish homes and in the two thousand ten, they completely changed their business model. We no longer produce oil and gas and have decided to stop all use of color to focus entirely on green energy in a decade they went from producing eighty five percent of their electricity from oil gas and coal to producing that same percentage from renewables they had been called Dong but in two thousand seventeen, they released a promotional video reinventing themselves because of our transformation dome originally short for Danish Oil and natural gas no longer reflects who we are. So. Even Changing Our name to us did Earth's said in eighteenth century Danish energy scientists lending his name to what is now a massive wind energy company. What they've achieved is at the scale of the biggest win producer in the world. Dave Jones is an electrician analyst with ember a clean energy think tank he says Erstad is in fact, one of the only energy utilities in the world that has been able to simultaneously grow. And Shrink oil and gas production to takes an awful lot of vision. Have such an aggressive strategy like that so what they've done is amazing hasn't been repeated many times. So how did they do it partly, it comes down to government energy policy. Then Mortenson leads state of green and organization that promotes Danish renewable energy. My argument would be that we had some far-sighted governments and civil servants at the time who could see that there was a possibility to to start. Focusing on wind Mortenson says the global oil shortage in the seventies led to decades of government incentives for wind to grow in Denmark subsidies state-backed research development, carbon pollution taxes support for rural energy. Cooperatives Erstad is benefiting from all of that. The government backing was simply key to to the success government prioritized wind and it worked they had a faster transition to wind energy than any other country on earth. Benjamin? So cool is a Danish energy policy expert at the University of Sussex in the UK. Does the size of Maryland, and yet they compete with China for the number one manufacturing of winter winterbourne's two of the world's biggest wind energy manufacturers are in Denmark, you know that Classic Wind Turbine Design the three spinning blades you can think Danish engineers for that. So it makes sense that the country's biggest energy utility would eventually capitalize on one of the country's biggest innovations earth stents exceptional leap towards wind was actually kind of a no brainer. Here's Sova cool again, they didn't get in the way. But they certainly didn't accelerate it much either they kind of just went along with general trends that were being pushed politically and socially. So vocal says, Erstad also has the benefit of the stable and reliable Danish energy market and it's held the company's bottom line years of state supported innovation have led to a massive decrease in the cost of wind in Denmark and the company has expanded internationally. Produce around a third of the world offshore wind mostly in Europe, but also on the east coast of the US in Taiwan Japan and Korea. Here's Finn Mortenson again from the Danish renewable energy. Organization. If you look at the capital value of the company, it has gone up dramatically since twenty sixteen when they really. Got Underway with the wind development. Company reported more than ten billion dollars in revenue. Last year, it does turned into virtual cash cow for the government owns fifty percents of the storm in the first five years of its transition erstad accounted for more than half of Denmark's carbon emission reductions Glenn neighb- your heads in new energy innovation organization called energy, Cluster Denmark. She says Earth says decision to scrap oil and gas in a fever of renewable created a ripple effect. I. Think it just pushed the whole sort of green agenda a lot more than if they would have kept both activities. Up until now, the company's success helps to solidify Denmark's role as a leader in wind globally mean they can attract the best people they can attract the pick sub suppliers. They are very competitive in the market they've moved in the right direction at the right point of time attracting the best minds can help Denmark push the technology even further napier says in Denmark and around the world to develop new ways of storing wind energy and use it to power cars trucks even airplanes for the world I'm ANA customer. Erste today announce, they inked a deal for a new ship to help, build and maintain offshore wind projects off the east coast of the US. They've got several wind farms here in the works, but face regulatory delays in getting the built today's deal marks a step forward. Do you have a question about how to solve the problems that come with a changing climate email your question to climate at the World Dot Org. In. Columbia a musician raising awareness about the environment by mixing the sounds of nature with electrons. Simone Mahia found some answers to some of the most pressing environmental issues right in his backyard outside Bogota. Gut here. I became more aware in the mornings at what time. The sounds begin no. So I, don't have. When I leave the C., I have my alarm club no phone Now my alarm clock as are those sounds you become more aware and now during Warrenton many people that still live in both how in the seat is where it's at like, wow and listening to some birds like five or five thirty am that I never listen before. He has new music project is not just a sonic experiment. He's raising awareness about nature wilderness and the people who rely on it tune in tomorrow for more music in conversation with Simone Mahia here on the world. Your with the world. Buyer beware the clothes you purchase manufactured in a modern day concentration camp will sunk craciun camps should infuriate you. Realize you through. Prevents you from sleeping at night a lawmaker in in France wants you to stop buying those close. That's in the next half hour you're on the world. I'm Marco, Werman your with the world where a CO, production of GBH BOSTON NPR x a group of American human rights lawyers say they can't do their work because of president trump and now they're suing the trump administration saying an executive order has gagged them and is preventing them from pursuing justice. The order signed in June by president trump threatened serious consequences for anyone supporting the work of the International Criminal. Court. The I C C in The Hague Diane Marie Ayman is a professor of international law at the University of Georgia and one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit. Diane you stayed in your claims that this executive order from trump is halted the work of you and your colleagues. Can you explain how exactly Lee for plaintiffs of Millennia? Stereo Kabore Rona, and I. Are All academics to have worked in various ways. Pro Bono to assist the work of the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court speaking personally I've had the deep honored to serve since twenty twelve as a prosecutor been sued a special advisor. In affected by armed conflict, what I do is try to do my own small part to help children who are tortured killed sexually abused otherwise harmed. In. War zones throughout the world in order to do that. I. Give Advice to the prosecutor. I speak with members of her staff. I helped prepare policy on children I engage student researchers to assist me in my work and I speak publicly. Because of the president's order I am gagged to from doing any of those things out of fear that they would be seen as giving assistance to the prosecutor who has now been designated by the president for sanctions. So the executive order from trump was followed last month by the imposition of sanctions you touched on a little that they're essentially you're in a dilemma because the main target of the sanctions is the ICS's chief prosecutor. Fatou Ben. Souda. The woman you just mentioned you've worked as an unpaid special advisor to Ben Souda on children in conflicts for the past eight years. So what is the status today of your relationship with Ben Souda from the moment of her designation on September? Second I have been forced to stop oil communication with her. I cannot give advice I n even unable to speak publicly in support of the work of the prosecutor because there is a risk under. The legal framework that the administration set up that even speaking save about works accord is doing could bring me within the umbrella of sanctions myself. Diane if you would to be sanctioned, how would that affect you personally unprofessionally? I'm a first generation college graduate with no independent wealth I have a house I've a retirement account. I have a family that depends on those assets. If I were sanctioned in my property were seized, I would be destitute. Now, the actions taken by the trump administration came in response to an investigation by the I. C. C. into alleged war crimes committed by the US and its allies in Afghanistan have you been worried that trump is trying to protect Americans from prosecution at the IC? Certainly need. Statements of secretary, pompeo Attorney General Bar in. On state that there is that fear. It's important to make clear that the International Criminal Court. Is a court of last resort. What that means is if a country. Whose citizens on are suspected of committing crimes if that country thoroughly investigates those allegations, unconscious people who are responsible for them the icy has no jurisdiction whatsoever. The problem with Afghanistan is that the United? States has not done. In the fact that it has not engaged in serious investigations of conduct in Afghanistan has exposed itself to be subject to inquiry by the International Criminal Court. Diane Marie. Ayman is a professor of international law at the University of Georgia and one of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit against the trump administration. Thank you very much for being with. Dan. Thank you. New evidence shows that China is expanding its persecution of the country's Wieger Muslim minority a recent report from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute discovered three, hundred eighty camps nearly double. The number previously thought China calls the camps in northwest Xinjiang region re education facilities, human rights groups say their concentration camps and that people held in them are subjected to forced labor even torture. That has not stopped some of the world's top retailers including wieger labor in their supply chains in Europe one channel politician leading a campaign to end that in Paris Rebecca Rosman has our report. A. Rough. On is not your typical politician. In fact, the French activists journalists will be the first one to tell you he kinda hates politicians busy clear Wednesday speaks only have talking points and the end don't believe in. When he won a seat in European Parliament, last year glucksman promise. His office would be something different and basically to try to be the voice of the voiceless. When he says, he wants to be the voice of the voiceless people. He doesn't just mean in France right now one of the populations he's most concerned about are the weaker. Muslims in China, you have stream young people in concentration camps justice walk. Thracian Kim's should infuriate you truly mobilize you should. Prevents you from sleeping at night. On. I learned about the atrocities taking place in. Jhang. Last fall when he invited a group of exiles to his office, he also read a report by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute which named eighty-three international retailers profiting from weaker forced labor and that's when he saw an opportunity. You can't kiss him in. Our own call during the are Kepi. The he launched a campaign on social media where he called out the offending Brown and try to mobilize a generation of youth to help spread. The word is buying everything that ends at least that was posted media Emma. Madani is an eighteen year old student who says she learned about the conditions in the weaker camps through Luke's month instagram Zaha Ashamed Samson good amazulu. Jack and June's there so many. Today, she wears a face mask that says free? Leaguers. Madani is one of hundreds of young people who recently gathered a small corner of eastern. Paris, for a day of Activism, they turned the square into a sort of Utopia people handed out food and flyers while others discuss different human rights causes including the plight of the. I am more hopeful now than before donor. Raihan. Is President of the European Institute and has worked with LUKE'S MON on his campaign. She says the youth involvement over the past year has helped them make real change before I've felt police because the genocide is here and the note politicians or government supplant. But now, the station is changed. Because now I know. As, a simple citizen, each of us have power. Lukman has been able to harness that power and convince some brands including H. La Lacoste to cut their ties wishing Jiang but he says, other brands will only change. They're forced by law. That's why he's working on a legislative proposal that would require any retailer that want to sell in Europe to remove forced labor from their supply chains otherwise could be fined or go to jail, and that's basically teach you do that in France. You jail directly. So why on earth? Would you sing that you can escape from any form of in Orissa? DVD that's in China. Last month. The trump administration passed a law restricting imports on certain products from. Xinjiang. Labor. Lukman quickly applauded trump for the bound. You represents everything I reject. But I don't care for MIA human rights are more important than my vision of warm. So if he does something right, I would say. Of course I think now. European leaders should die out of. Their load. Donald Trump. To be a leader. On the confronting the most massive human rights violation into this war, that's wind Luke's says for now he's focused on mobilizing everyday citizens. The next time someone wears as our shirt or nike shoes he wants them to think about where the product came from and if they're disturbed with what they discover, he hopes still heed his call to action for the world. I'm Rebecca Rosman in Paris. Fighting is continuing for the fifth straight day in a part of the world that straddles Europe and Central Asia heavy shelling between forces from Armenia and Azerbaijan dozens of casualties have been reported since Sunday the two sides are basically fighting over land a disputed region in the caucus called nagorno-karabakh the major powers in the area Turkey and Russia. Getting involved to help make sense of all this we're joined now by Simon Suraj on the director of the Russia matters project at the Harvard Kennedy School you were born I understand in the nagorno-karabakh region Simon I think there are a lot of people including myself that don't know much about the area. So can you start by describing it for us? I was willing to individual hype which used to be part of the. Principality of got about but was carved out and given to, as Serie Soga Republic Linda Soviet Union was established. It's a beautiful area some call it the Switzerland of Caucasus Rolling Hills Mountains, alpine medals, fast streams breathtaking. My heart is always there. So since Sunday Simon, we've seen an outburst of violence in nagorno-karabakh. What are the two sides fighting over why this most recent outburst? Fighting over what they view as the most serious thing the world relent I'd say it's the worst fighting since the ceasefire. And it has the greatest potential to become. A REGIONAL WALL because. Of Involvement of Turkey, not just a diplomatic zero support but according to demean side in according to international agencies, the quote rebels from Syria, who go and fight now against the media. So at this time, Iona see bath those further hostilities. Until Excel Hours, leverage leverage intervene, and convince time too late on Negoti. What are the alliances that you're seeing at play with the nagorno-karabakh violence and what's at stake for all of them? The strongest material presence on the ground? That is actually involved in common. Is the Turkish as. Lions two nations that described the cell run nation to states. For the first time, we see a fallen power send fighters to the neighborhood which Russia has basically called zone of its privileged interests. Okay. So that's unprecedented. That sounds that Turkish. Airlines. It sounds really strong as it essentially unassailable and what is Turkey's intent in getting involved in this conflict. Turkeys intent is to attain defeat of Damian forces so that as would expand control of land and food that expand its influence in south crocuses Orgin for instance in which it used to be furiously with Russia and Iran. Is there a Formula Simon do you think that could lead to another ceasefire? What are you hearing from Western countries? I'm not privy to discussions among western diplomats. Any bonus from what I see today's statement by members of the school is a welcome sign. If they back that statement coast were beasts with signaling the dose refuse to heed the call would be facing real consequences in terms of sanctions. I. Think that good held to discontinue the fighting. These the took place Russia has by Thaad the strongest leverage. So Russia's singlehandedly cook bring the two countries to. The s it has done before. Okay, Bud ceasefire is achievable. Who makes up the men's group Russia France us you said, you not privy to any diplomatic conversations, but do you see energy behind the Minsk group that could lead to a ceasefire? Has, done. Share work trying to bring the two countries to get it. But the thing is the positions have become reconcilable on deneen inside does no way I mean it would agree to Gaba, returning to returning quote Unquote Return. On the reside, there's no way they can see any solution in which gotta buck is not part of averaging so. Until depositions on that change does not going to be peace no matter what the Minsk group as what other formats I used is just not going to work. As you told, US earlier Simon you were born in nagorno-karabakh. So for you personally, how has this conflict wait on you and your family and the prospect that it's GonNa be hard to end it. Well it's weighing heavily I. I feel for people there I lost my village to a combined. Of Dan. So interior troops and as release okay. So might be legitimate normal but older peaceful people living in got rough I feel for them and I hope. This. Acidity Don neither nightside suffer anymore. But that's my whole. The reality is unfortunately different. Simon Sarah John is the director of the Russia matters project at the Harvard Kennedy School of Government. Simon thank you for taking the time today to explain this to us. Honking. marie-antoinette one set of her hungry subjects. Let them eat cake. Well, if the Queen had been reading the news that of Ireland. Supreme. Court. This week she may have said, let them eat subway bread. That's right. The roles for your five foot. Long the High Court has ruled that subway's bread is too sugary to qualify as bread under the country's tax rules. Katie McGinnis is a food writer and restaurant critic based in Dublin she's been following this. How much is this news rocking the food world? Katie or at least the bread world. Most of us are kind of having a bit of a regular basis to be honest. So cases come out of the dispute between an operator of some subway franchises here about a tax bill dating back a number of years that ended up in the Supreme Court who gave the judgment this week, and because of the sugar content in the subway bread, it does not qualify as a staple food because apparently it contains ten percent sugar, which I think is phenomenal. So it will subway's bread is not Brad. It's cake. So. Let's back up a second. I'm still kind of confused how tax rules are involved in this whole thing ended up in the court. In the first place it's a dispute in relation to the amount to tax that should be charged on that sign witches. Staple Foods. Attractive Value Added Tax of zero percent and more exotic foods. Discretionary foods would attract to higher tax rate. The idea being that if you're making a sandwich with regna bread, there's no VAT tax applies to that bread. Whereas if he were selling a cake, you would be adding thirteen point five percent tax to okay. So subway bread made lots of sugar most birds have sugar. Well, the rule here is that to qualify as a as a Brett at you have less than two. Percent Sugar and in fact, I went to my local supermarket yesterday picked up a load of different breads to see what the sugar content of each loaf was are they ranged between north point six grams per slice, and I think one point seven grams precise or hundred grams. So it's less than two percent generally across the board and of course, if you make your own bread. So many of us have been doing during the pandemic Dixie Sarajevo. You'll know that there's no sugar in a tool other than the naturally occurring sugar that comes from the fermentation process and just reminded us where the subway bread rolls stand on the sugar scale. How high up? Ten percent apparently. That's really high end. It's very high. I've never actually never tasted on her I. Don't know whether I should be ashamed to admit that or not but. Maybe, I should go. See Switches. Katie McGinnis is a food writer and restaurant critic based in Dublin Good Luck finding a subway sandwich one of these days. Thank you very much was very nice to. Thailand through the eyes of the average tourist is often seen as a freewheeling anything goes sort of place. The reality is a little different. For example, every student in Thailand grows up learning. There are some things you just can't say and some people you don't question class hierarchy are taught in school conservative say this creates an orderly society but as the world's Patrick win reports from Bangkok, there's a new movement of self proclaimed bad students who are shocking the country by taking on its biggest taboo. This is how the school day always starts in Thailand with the national anthem. At the in the morning students gathered under the flag and sing along bowing to shed every drop of blood for their country nothing strange about this American. Kids say the pledge of allegiance and most countries try to ingrain kids with a sense of patriotism. But in Thailand, there are other rituals of obedience like on special occasions, prostrating yourself before your teacher dropping to your hands and knees your head touching the floor is even a special song for this. It's just generally not okay to question your teachers authority most kids go along with it but some think this culture of submissiveness keeps ties society stuck in the past like this student panacea CG to Watson Accordin Mines had day my wa Metallica she says it is so clear we're taught that humans are not equal. Panacea goes by room which means rainbow and I found room in her college dorm. She's twenty two and newly famous infamous. Some would say for challenging Thailand's status quo and I mean on on. Our. By report you with these days, she says, there are often police posted outside of her dorm watching her following her around. Yeah. Room is in big trouble back to that in a minute I to understand the root of her trouble you gotta go back to high school when she was just a normal middle class teenager from family who sells autoparts and when she went to school all the bowing and scraping the obsession with hierarchy. Bugged. Her my mommy. What would? My let me when he me and. She says, she felt they were teaching her that. There's always someone higher than you and if you somehow get to their level, you'll have people bowing at your feet too. There was the time teacher made everyone go home and wash their MOMS feet and take a photo of it is proof to show to the class who me candidate Weihe headline how man put on room says she thought it was silly look. There was another lesson that wasn't her favorite learning Rochester up, which is a special language, a very ornate form of tie that you must know. Just, in case you meet a member of Thailand's royal family meeting royalty. You can't just say the words a me or I you have to say by Fowler on to leap Rabat beneath the dust at the soles of your holy feet. So I'm pleased to meet. You is more like beneath the dust at the soles of your holy feet is pleased to meet. You made a guy who Says I don't know I. Just figured that if I never met royalty, I'd never use it now in Thailand's hierarchy, no one is higher than the Royal Family Tie children learn early on that the family is sacrosanct politicians may run the country day to day but the king is the head of state embodying the greatness of Thailand and each night on TV after the news there's the royal news where anchors have to use that special language promise. You, some depends bats in Nassar that now practitioner Amponsah this broadcast. Thailand's King is blessing Thai officials who dress in all white suits and crawl on the carpet before him the king is sixty eight. He took over four years ago after the death of his father who had ruled for seventy years the current King spends much of his time in. Europe flying back to Thailand. For ceremonies. Now criticizing royalty is blasphemy, it can put you in prison and that brings us back to rooms modern day troubles. For diesel one nine. Seven weeks ago she got on stage at a political rally on her campus and she said this other now who? Day she said to discuss the royal institution openly. Then, she read a manifesto that questioned the role of the palace and society its wealth, how it is intertwined with the powerful military, and of course, the laws against critiquing the palace. Lonely women. Who Name with the WHO are? Getting on stage room says she was super tents having no idea if people would accept her ideas mind manip-, Whitney Tina heard vision for the monarchy is closer to what you see in Japan the UK where people can say pretty much anything about Queen Elizabeth or Prince Harry. That might not sound radical but in Thailand it's radical because people learn from childhood that the monarchy is the nation soul and many people have contempt for people like room. They think she's a traitor and she is now facing sedition charges for speaking about the palace. Frankly. It's a little surprising that she is not stuck in a cell right now I mean got along without. Power yes. She says I'm just waiting. When are they going to do something to me in the meantime room who was unknown eight weeks ago is building small fan base especially among young. Thais sarcastically calling themselves bad students bad as in disobedience. Protesters gathered outside Thailand's parliament recently like this one, thousand, nine year old who goes by the name chill. When I asked for her thoughts on room, she starts shaking with emotion getting. Cut. Cope, and How She she so gifted chill says so amazing. Chill and the others here are protesting what they call the futile order. The crowd is mixed, young and old, but they're about to run through a ritual. Everyone knows from their days in school singing the national anthem. There's a disobedient twist though when they sing everyone holds up three fingers, a symbol borrowed from the hunger games in which young rebels fight tyranny. Room is here of course, getting mobbed by students who want selfies. Crazy loud but room tells me. She's pleased. So many protesters have come out and that they're ready for whatever comes. But one of rooms friends tells me she's actually straight now because of the police posted nearby no, no no. Because it's Thursday and room has a big class presentation tomorrow morning. For the World Patrick Win Bangkok. That's where we say. Good. Bye Today we're always online at the world dot org on twitter. We're at the world I'm there to at Marco Werman stay strong be healthy. We're back with you tomorrow.
How to get banned from YouTube
"You're holding a screwdriver and you hands. And if you unscrewed that device a tablet to fix it i potentially are opening up a can of worms. Yes this week on. Download this shark. Should you have the right to recant. Your technology plus. What did sky news due to get bumped off youtube. Why is one of the biggest movie styles on earth suing over disney plus and which ozzy tech startup just got bored by the founder of twitter. Poll that much more coming up. This is your guide to the week in media technology and culture. My name is mike fennell and welcome to download this. yes indeed. It is a brand new upside down. Let the shy at guests this week from butts. I dot com shaima span. Welcome back hello good to be here and analysts with these strategic policy institute arrow bogle. It's been too long welcome back. Hi thanks for having me again. The pleasure is entirely mind. Okay well i'm going to start off with sky news. Why is it that sky. News has been pulled off youtube china's so we know that the whole sky news australia after dark. Realm has become quite notorious for the concert commentary that it throws around and in a lot of respects that has become these interesting play for sky news australia on youtube so as much as that is going up there to the year subscription television broadcast audience and now to s- regionalist earlier audience five broadcast. These kinds of videos have been packaged up and pushed out to the whole world through. This guy needs australia youtube channel. It's had now like one of the biggest egypt channels of any australian kosta by appealing to that kind of audience and after a whole bunch of misinformation related to the pandemic and the current a virus. Vaccines you cheap has decided that. Actually you know what these too much. They have repeatedly gone against you. Cheese rolls and so it has been given a seven day time out seen being if you will and been told to sorry. Do we know exactly what videos caused concern aerial. No we died it. This is an issue birth with youtube. Transparency around how it applies. Disinformation policies writ large in general. They're not very clear about exactly which videos from channel broke. Its rules. i mean people are trying to reverse engineer trying to figure out which videos on the sky news. Australia youtube channel. No longer there. And sort of wheedle it out that way but both sky and google so far have not been exactly forthcoming about the specificity of which videos crossed the line us. This is the point that i kind of get caught up right. Because if the whole point is that they are in trouble because of sharing things well could be classified as misinformation. Let's be diplomatic about it. Then he's not like some responsibility for both youtube and sky to correct the things that youtube is decided Misinformation saying hey this thing that we put out maybe not true right. That's like a reasonable thing to do. Right arrow yeah. I mean i agree. I don't know if they agree So throughout the carbon nineteen pandemic. I guess a really interesting step up in moderation on on youtube it also say facebook twitter instagram as well. Because the pandemic and health advice is is kind of a clear align compared to say political misinformation the platforms have really been a more overt. More quicker i suppose to remove content that in their view poses a risk to public health. Could cause somebody do something risky to the health. For example taking hydroxy clark wound or even accton from saying that right against the advice of doctors against both medications that have been discussed on sky. News australia certainly a lot more. Transparency would be really welcome. So i think this kind of incident raises a lot of questions about youtube transparency but also about the appropriateness and the strength of australia's own domestic regulatory regime youtube since the early stages of the pandemic has been really treating covered nineteen as almost a test case of win. It is something so clear that it is about health and science and it isn't just a political debate. then they have felt more comfortable to both. Just try to remove things quickly. And in the sense of correcting the record their attitude has been to promote your who and cdc which is america's information body for the pandemic. So they been more focused on that idea of saying we will run links to other videos and other things that are froth authoritative sources rob than that idea saying. Well someone posted a bad video needs to correct debut any and saints. That's the difference between you know something that is focused on broadcasting and the broadcast. This should correct the record. This is something like youtube where it's just they to say we will remove things that we think are incorrect and we will more actively promote things that we feel having authority behind them. Is it enough aerial. Certainly in journalistic practice the tradition of providing corrections and explanations. When news outlets get something wrong is really important. But i don't think it reaches the audience that saw the original content. So in terms of effectiveness is kind of debatable and so that does probably need to be a new approach to providing correct information through these kind of platforms which are an extension. I think of our meteo ecosystem. Think youtube should be seen as not media and not a media platform when so many news outlets exist on it but maybe we need a slightly different approach. How has skynews reacted. China's you may be surprised to discover that they feel at ease an imposition on their free speech and he's a blight on democracy itself. So yeah it's a really complicated one when it comes to how they dealing with it but fashanu australia itself their responses very much been focused on the idea that they should be not told that they can't publish things the way they want to publish them. Aerial scott uses an unusual proposition. Right because obviously we know it. As cable news service that exists on fox show relatively small sort of viewership by comparative to other this to kind of really made things about them. That makes them stand out. Certainly they've pushed into free to original areas is really important. But then i guess coming back to this issue their social media footprint. It's really important for their rage isn't it. yeah absolutely. I mean as shameless was alluding to the. I encourage people to go to the youtube channel and just sought by top videos. And then you understand. Exactly what's going on here. I mean by talk videos. I mean the most watched videos because the top two rows or so of those top videos just indistinguishable from a us publisher actually. They seem to have no stories really about australia. Among those top top videos. I mean the top ones are about trump in north korea. As of today as of recording this video there about joe biden's quote unquote cognitive issues. Which is certainly a focus for conservative and right leaning meteor in the united states. there's a video about trump. walking out of an interview. Mean these are the top videos and of course there have sort of period interests may be two australians but they're not of australian news value arguably and if that's it strategy targeting. Us audiences as many people have documented. It does seem to be working out and of course as well. There are variety of financial relationships. That news corp is ian. We've grew cool. And of course skynews. A strategy is a partner in the what's called the youtube partner program which means they can advertising revenue off the videos so there is a really big There to maximize views and if they maximizing views by delving into the united states culture war. Whatever topic of the day is best. Serves that i mean. That is a revenue strategy. That youtube has put on the table and arguably sometimes encourages the direction. That's guyanese australia's taking download. The show is what you're listening to. It is your god to the week. In media technology and culture guests wake area bogle. Shame burn. Mcneil is my name. And why is scott. Hanson sewing walt disney sherman's look big stars. Wanna get paid and in this case. The star of black widower has raised one of the big issues of the moment in. Which is that a film that was contracted before the pandemic began has now been released at a time when the box office is not what it used to be and has been simultaneously released on a digital platform and that means it has a huge impact on what her final payments are because a lot of payments are attached directly to box office outcomes and not the secondary market of digital distribution. So it's a big moment. There's been lots of people arguing about these stuff. But this is probably one of the first times i sing someone hating to the lawyers. Yeah it's an interesting moment right so clearly. He's the end of her characters ryan in the in the molly universe. So she sort of free to kind of do this. I think one of the biggest issues when it comes to beat franchise films. Is that usually the talent. That's kind of locked into these multi deals. She's now not would same anyway. And of course a big reason why you get these hollywood actors to sign onto multi deals is that they get a piece of the back end of what happens when the film gets sold on and into what was one time video down to streaming services and if you remove that theatrical window it seems that there's a lot of money that they lose do you think she has a case there has been some interesting commentary around is a lot of people. Quite intrigued with this is playing out in public. Typically this might be the kind of dispute that goes straight sort of behind doors into arbitration. Something like this but as you said maybe she feels freer to take a stand. Because that was black widow was her final film in this sort of black widow. Run and wall street journal did say that. The decision by disney to put this film out on disney plus it's in streaming platform at the same time as it relates in theaters cost johannesen about fifty million dollars which is nothing to sneeze at. I mean that was just one experts opinion. The cost there. So we'll have to see if that really biz- out. I mean it's interesting. Disney plus really push back strongly against scarlett johansson and her tame releasing about how much she got paid up front and making all kinds of commentaries. So there's a bit of a war of words going on there right now. It was also interesting tree because rarely do these streaming platforms say how much they earn from. Releasing films and disney came out saying that it got about sixty million on disney plus of global revenue by putting the film out on that platform. So that's an interesting little dot point that we rarely get. I don't think we've seen the the loss of this. Yeah look. I tried to do some some maths around the stuff to try to spot. Where the losses. I and i mean of course right. People just aren't going back to the cinema as quickly as anybody would have hoped. They said that black widow deed released to forty two hundred screens in the us which counts as a wide release. Which was kind of pot of her deal looking back on it. Yeah something changes in game winter. Forty six hundred feet is not just screen so that probably played on maybe three times as many screens on its opening weekend black widow so far has made three hundred million globally in theaters and in that sixty million on premium access. I pulled up ragnarok because my ventures in game was like the end of the era for all of those kinds of i i of injured stars but something that ragnarok probably had a beat more of a relationship it had like a one hundred twenty million dollars opening weekend and black. We'd had an eighty million dollars opening weekend. But then a week later ragnarok could made almost another one hundred million dollars whereas by guido it only made about another fifty million dollars. So it's almost that saints of everybody who wanted to go and see it went to that opening weekend for the fun of that but most of the people if they weren't really came to go to the cinema full stop which i think plenty of people are just worried about that space right now then they probably the premium access version which means you can watch it multiple times at high time for that same thirty bucks whereas the be plenty of people who in the usual saints might go much a big blockbuster multiple times at the cinema because it's not gonna come out at high for months later. Yeah i gotta say as a person who spent fifteen years reviewing movies watching the industry now. It's very hard to say how cinemas ever come back from private. Movies have been presented with this alternative in the form of streaming services and premium deals. And it's just a little bit too good a deal for cinemas this is my personal taken blaze bio mainstone me. If you guys disagree but i just see cinemas aerial ever coming back from from this. You know these last two years. What do you think. It's suddenly a tough proposition. I mean maybe i don't think cinemas writ lodge disappear but maybe the amount of cinemas will reduce in so they will be stu desire to go to the cinema for big releases on sort of opening day weekend if you want the full cinemax big-screen kind of experience and certainly for a strong contingent of people. I think still want that outing. I once they feel safe enough to do it so i don't think it's going to go away entirely. But maybe they will have to base some constriction in the amount of screens on awful and yeah. I think there's an issue here as well right way if disney losses being potentially the greatest launch shelvin entertainment service in the history of digital right. Because the timing couldn't have been better. I mean it launched before the pandemic but it was able to accelerate massively last year and it's access and it's ernest shape of so many of these franchises. You know the fact that disney irons basically everything now when it comes to major movies and things man so easy for them to make that choice whereas we've still got a bond film sitting on the shelf now for a year and a half because they don't have that kind of a direct relationship they would have to be selling the rights to someone else and negotiating some kind of deal hyping that that would be enough whereas if a disney they know that this just it isn't just that sixty million dollars a premium access. They know that there's going to be a whole bunch of people who've also either resubscribe does subscribe to the first time to get access to that movie so there's a lot of layers in the way disney yarns every one of them whereas some of those other players this dealing that nine man's land wondering how exactly do we make sure we get the returns. We need to afford to have made a bond. Well we can also talk another time about the dangers of disney. Earning that amount of ip. Absolutely i mean it does create two classes of media well to two classes of movie studio right. I mean you can say that every single movie studio anybody that owns any any. Intellectual property is rushing to create a direct relationship with the consumer thought it is undergoing a massive change and how we watch and how we consume. He's gonna look really different than a couple years. Dawn download the. shot us. what you're listening to it. He's your guy to the wake in media technology and culture and a huge sale. This week after pie has been bought aerial. Who's been bought by square. It is short little name for a payments company are in by the founder of twitter. Jack dorsey why is de facto. Dorsey interested in occupy. We'll squares quite an interesting product and it kind of interesting side project. I suppose if jack dorsey who we all think of as the twitter boss he's actually being involved with square for the policy is to kind of building out a payment platform in the way they kind of sell it is. It's very much merchant. Focus so you might have somebody at a market stole at a farmers market selling loves of brand. But they have that little white square. You might have seen so they can do tap and go payments anybody that wants it so kind of helping move technology around payments out into the general public. It's an interesting tie cova by square the because off to pay of course is one of australia's leading by by now pilot platforms kind of ecosystem. That has really boomed in the past few years where people can typically biproduct online or in a shop. Get it there and then but then pay off the price in about four installments over a couple of months and i can kind of make sense with square sort of really trumpets. Its relationship with merchants and retailers and after pay does the same and it's really just another service that square and offer its merchants. They can offer consumers now the ability to pay up front of course but also this ability to pay off over time you could see how integration between two could potentially work and also with pointing at. This is an australian company after pie. And it's one of the very few ones. That have managed to kind of breakthrough. I think on a on an international scale yet and look. It really is a huge moment for these finance side of these trainings. Startup world when they're talking about us. Twenty-nine billion dollar deal squares market cap itself is like one hundred twenty four billion. He's a huge percentage of the value of square die. We have to make the joke that it's an all stock deal which is ultimately the the true buy now pay later at a corporate scout so yeah congratulations to square on pulling that one off. Its kind of fascinating. That square already actually had things like the banking licenses. The rights to kind of do all of this stuff and some of the tools itself so in some ways people have kind of wondered what exactly was square looking for but i think there is something about the fact that after pay was starting to have success in international markets. What it needed was more of the kind of scale that square can offer because it was starting to face competition from pay pal itself Which is launched. its iron by now. Pilot of service apples been looking at the space through its apple cod potentially so you know be competitive as out. There and square has kind of built the engine. Almost for these kind of payment system that operates close to globally at this stage. But it might be. That after pay is kind of improving itself. I think maybe to have been a branding bitter recognition Oh yeah just a bit of kind of peach into that retail space and in some ways i think square is kind of happily letting the square brand itself almost kind of fade into the background compared to return cash app which is an app that is huge in the us now but look aerial said earlier that this is the side project. I totally think it's the other way around. Twitter is the side project square. Is the thing that jack. Dorsey firmly has his eye on. It is the thing that has made him all the more billions. I think over the last five years. Twitter's market cap. Growth is about two hundred and seventy eight percent and squares growth over the past five eases over two thousand percent so you know in terms of which company makes him a bigger and bigger billionaire. Eighty is absolutely square. And this is where we're seeing kind of lots of efforts to keep exploring and doing interesting things in this finance market whereas you know. Twitter launched a payment service. Here in australia. Where i didn't even know what you get for paying money each month So it's it's these. I think is the area that he knows. He's the big pot of he's feature. Pay pack it is probably with pointing at aerial that pineap- highlight services and not without some issues. Yeah totally i had. I had to have a little off when i read the press. Release about this. Buyout of shares from jack dorsey. He had this statement about the aim of squares to make the financial system more fair accessible and inclusive and he put off to pay in. That bucket is well. I mean sure But there's certainly a lot of kind of ethical issues around by now pay later. Services particularly in the impact on young people. Actually ask the financial regulator here in australia. Publish this report last year around the effects that buy now pay later services were having and it said about one in five of the consumers it looked at in this survey had missed payments in by now pilot of products which meant though probably paying late fees all kinds of the administration costs and over that one in five about forty seven percent where aged between eighteen and twenty nine and about forty percent also already held some small to medium credit card debt. So that is an issue. He i think around. The targeting of young people i mean. Maybe that's another reason. Why square had its ion off to pay. It really does have a big inroad with young consumers and even if they don't have a credit card it is a new way to get in debt at the end of the day indeed or and finally he on download the show. Shoot you have the right to repair your technology when something goes horribly wrong. This is part of i. Guess manifesto about the to repay. That's under debate at the moment. Reo yeah the productivity commission here in australia has been looking at these question of the right to repay. I think for the average person you probably would assume yes. I have the right to repay my stuff like you know you certainly. If you break a table you might give it a go fixing it yourself. You might call in the company to help you but it gets really complicated when it comes to technology of course never say fired a laptop these all quite complex. Bits of gear and finding the right person to fix it as hard and then of course. There's this issue that has really been playing out of the poppy. Use that a lot of technology companies. Either us specifically say or imply that you might void your warranty if you don't use them or as sort of repair institution that's gotten an antique from the company. And you might sort of lose some of your privileges around warranty and other things and that's not necessarily always legal here in australia. But it's kicked off this debate about the writer pay here and whether it needs stronger. Protections for consumers canal consumable so what's been proposed as a i guess as a change china's so i guess there is kind of a whole bunch of submissions to productivity commission inquiry into this holes. That abroad repair. I find it gets kind of really complicated when it comes to high tolerance technologies like smartphones and things because it is so easy for someone to make a mistake and and then how that sort of leads to the original manufacturer needing to deal with the classic issue being exploding funds that a fine catches fire and it turns out it was the potty battery replacement or something like that. It's not always that the case but that has definitely been sort of one of those areas where it becomes an issue but it also is about the idea that this is about not just tick it's about qasr and evenings like open source three d printable spare parts like there's all these kinds of new areas that i think this is where you're writing about some of these recommendations of people who've be making into these inquiry does try to point it all these kinds of areas that we should be trying to sit the rules around to give people that decide. If if i want to do a personal repair on a piece of technology then i should be able to go and your source a pot myself or to have options available rather than having these things stamped out you know one of the areas that is an issue is even things like well. If we're going to allow third parties to do repairs they need to also have permission to say which brands they can repair but often being area where you know companies will say you have no permission to use brand. So there's so many little kind of lays here as to exactly the rules need to be to ensure that that what might be fair or conceded within the law on one hand isn't just kind of being stamped out because someone says well dicon us brand in anything that they say about tech and therefore you wouldn't even know where to go to find a third party repair even if it was legal area on some level. This is a little bit of a no brainer. Because i mean certainly in terms of things like the ability to repair technology as opposed to what so many of us do which is just like replace it. You've got to figure that slightly and have a big impact on waste. Yeah absolutely that's another concern that productivity commission is looking into and one. That's i think people have an awareness of this. Certainly people are often aware that they can drop off like old laptops old smartphones to council. So they can get properly recycled. Of course there are sometimes issues toxicity. In parts of technology that gets thrown away true. But i i really do think we caught cape consuming on new items at the right. We are and just throwing them away when the battery runs down we really need to be looking into a much stronger economy around repair much stronger guidelines around our rights to repairs an access as well. Because as i'm shameless is alluding to you this sometimes. It's really hard to even know where to go. to get stuff repaired and to understand you know what about your phone could be improved for example beyond fix to a cracked screen or a new battery. Because there are a lot of tinkering that can take place if you have the right know-how and skills shaima now that we have this productivity commission report. How do you think this is all going to play out. I definitely think they'll they'll be some opening up and ensuring that we have some rules in place that try to leave the door open for people to get things done if they want to go and find out how to do it in a secondary market where it does get complicated. We'll be will we get rules around. Things like open source libraries of principle pots. Yeah that's kind of something. That sometimes i think can be beyond government planning when it comes to rewriting rules for. We'd edge cases of internet culture. That actually have real value in this kind of spice but yeah warranty is going to be a really tricky one. Because you will. They set rules in place. That say okay you can go and get it repaired in some place but then if something goes wrong who is going to be left holding the bag will at that third party repair have to will they be able to keep the can down the road and say actually that wasn't asked that was the original and do people get left in the middle so that is where it's going to be really a real tension there of who exactly is going to be responsible in those cases where something gets repaid about dane. Something does go wrong. Guess we'll just have to wait and say shammas burn from side. Thank you so much coming back on the show. Good to be here and arrow bogle from the australian strategic policy institute. Thank you so much for having me and with that chalet. My name is mike fennell and thanks for listening to another episode of download this show.
May 24th: Deirdre Pilch and Grayson Slover HR 2
"This is mornings with kale and northern colorado's voice thirteen ten. kfi k. Now wait a minute. We sure that school's out before summer will thank heaven and eight. Oh seven on your monday morning. Thirteen ten kfi am a thirteen ten. Kfi dot com northern colorado's boyce mornings with gail from the specialists thank. Heaven joined this morning by dr deirdre repel superintendent greeley evans school district six six-pack pelts welcome back to the show the morning gail. Thanks for having me. Let's talk a little bit about what the summer looks. Like now at greeley evans school districts. We're we're we're gearing up for the next base obviously so Yeah school is out. Officially were gearing up for a significant summer session here. We'll start next week with over three thousand of our students coming back to us To to do some some catch up and some push up and to get ahead a little bit As a result of of some of the time missed during this crazy pandemic you know a little bird that was coming so i thought it might be a good thing. Ask you about that. What what are the reactions that you're getting from students and faculty and staff and parents. So i i wanna tell you everyone is tired. Everyone is just just wearing. Yeah wary with us and so You know we've had to work really hard to convince families. It's okay to bring the children back to us for another month because they're tired You know and our teachers are tired. But but they're stepping up All of our staff many of them are stepping up and teachers secretaries health coach nurses principals assistant principals to make this happen for students in june. And where are you as far as those Masking requirements and social distance requirements. Great question so we are. Starting june one not requiring any masking outdoors so any activity outside. So if you're teaching outside you're playing outside you're eating outside. Masks are not required for students or staff outdoors and You know we're gonna ask folks to try to maintain distance but what what we're learning is. There's very little transmission of this virus outdoors and and so we're tending to spend a lot of time outside inside. We're still going to require masks at this point At least for summer school. And you know we'll watch and see what the colorado department of public health and environment since our way they've not given us any new guidance In for indoor activity since his last public health orders. So we're hoping to get something from them here know any day we hope what about the vaccine availability for those fifteen and up. I wanted to get your twelve and a half gail now. Put up all the time sixteen enough and then boom within a couple of weeks. It was twelve enough so You know we. We are portland. The sunrise health clinics offer some Some clinics at district sites. They'll come in. Sunrise will come in and Here i think the first three fridays in june they'll be at a different school site. They will have that information. They're pushing out from sunrise For families who want their children or families who want to come in and be vaccinated in might feel more comfortable doing that at at a school site rather than going to the health clinic So we you know. We are pushing out information. The vaccine we know. There's a lot of folks who wanna wait on the vaccine and you know we respect that as well But we do expect that you know. Students and faculty were fully vaccinated at. Some point are going to be able to to not wear masks and not be quarantined. You're fully vaccinated. We don't quarantine Following an exposure unless you have symptoms and so you know that that's a good reason to be back it'd be vaccinated for sure and you know understanding you gotta go with your own health decisions. Sure there are some concerns. There is a bit of a trepidation. I know just in doing some random on tari unscientific sampling but talking to parents. They're just kind of on the fence when it comes to getting their kids vaccinated In that age group well understandable. You know the this axiom still is just under emergency approval. So you know. That's that's certainly understandable. And you know. I wanna be clear that that i understand. What a personal decision. That is sure. Absolutely eight twelve now thirteen ten. Kfi thirteen ten kfi k. A. dot com northern. Colorado's voice dodger deirdre. Pilch is superintendent greeley evans school district. Six and man. You've got eleven. Count them eleven projects underway since the passage of that Bond measure nearly two years ago. probably time for an update. How's it all going gail. We couldn't ask for it to be going any better. We are contractors. Had just done a remarkable job at each of these projects We're just so pleased. Ah for the most part were were on time. And we're under budget or on budget ran into a couple of things that mccullough one little thing with. Hvac where we need to upgrade the whole building in order to run the new system so that that increase the cost. They're just a little bit but it's it going really well We will kick out here. I'm sure they're out there today at a grad industrial To for secure entries and current college readiness spaces so that you know that we are just moving and it's remarkable to see and actually this is one thing. The pandemic has had a terrible impact on other than the cost. Some of the costs have gone up because of pandemic steel is really hard to get as a result of this pandemic not to mention lumber feeling number both yes oh some of the costs have gone up because of that but You know we're fortunate. We've we've got really good contractors. And and i've got a really good staff who are working very hard to pull this all together and bringing it together and you know we're halfway through the projects that Greeley west high school. You know the new new build their it will open in fall of twenty two twenty two and then same with the new k. Eight academy Cra bob and betty tweeden that school Is well underway as well and so it's mcauliffe will be done in november Coming down for street. You wanna go down and take a look at this a whole new school growing up there and you know it's interesting because i had a craving for some mexican food and where else are you going to go. But the charro in greeley so I'm i'm my husband's never been there. So i took him up there yesterday and we had just a wonderful lunch and We were driving back to loveland and manned. I'll tell you what i would say. The ground is being broken but no a ground has already been broken when it comes to the twin the kademi. There's a lot of work going on there. Yeah yeah Roach constructors have have done an excellent job. They're really getting that project going. And and you know working with the city and the golf course because that could conflicts project being. You know a jake into the golf course there the other really tricky one. That that we're starting on and starting to move dirt on his madison Elementary were converting it to a k. Eight and it's a rebuild as well so rebuilding on site That school so you know. That's the big project as well coming up and you made it through graduation. And and how was prom of the kids had such a great time. Tom and even in some of the graduation speech is they talked about prom at that they at least got to have a prom. And so you know it's things that are feeling a little bit more normal more typical I think for students and we think with the way. The guidelines and protocols are changing. It'll only begin to feel more and more typical one to get back to those plans about the summer session and hoping to catch kids up some way because you know you like other school districts across the entire country. I mean you did everything within your power in order to keep kids engaged and actively involved and you know remote learning is one thing but it doesn't take the place of in classroom learning but kudos to you for all that you did and and all of your staff and your everyone involved in the process. I how how big of a trajectory is tau long. is it going to take. Do you think To catch some of those kids up. That's the literally million dollar question. So the feds have funded us for three years with additional dollars For just that. And so i. I would say to you that at least our federal government thinks it's gonna take two to three years And fortunately for us because because of our our population that we serve you know. We are a significant receiver in terms of that funding. And so we're putting it to good use In terms of this summer school programming and then come back to school in the fall. We'll also have after school programming And it just has to. You know we've got to. We've got to come out really strong and so this summer. The summer sessions are going to be full days. Monday through thursday You know it. It will be school now. We're building in some excursions. Some field trips to to draw greater interest from our students. But you know the thing that really. I think that children back the most were the numbers of quarantine and the time that children were spent at home because the quarantine because the quarantine guidance is so strict. I did lighten up a little bit here in late spring down to ten day quarantines instead of fourteen day quarantine but tell you you know. I talked to families who said i. We're one family. Their child's has been quarantined seven times until right. So you know an and that's not always for two weeks but sometimes it was two or three days but but We have you know we have children who missed out on in person learning because of those quarantines or maybe they were sick themselves or have family members who were sick well and you have to put those precautions in place sadly and i. I don't mean to lapse into cliche. But i'm only hoping i mean. This has had such an amazing tremendous deleterious psychological impact on adults and kids alike. I'm just hoping that you know that old trope about kids being resilient to enable bounce back on just hoping that with the guidance of folks like yourselves at greeley evans school district six and of course the support from family friends and the list goes on and on that. We'll see our kids Just snap back to normal. But it's gonna take a lot of after gail. I will tell you we will with these federal dollars. We'll be hiring apparently is on to work with families to do parent and family work. We'll also we're also increasing a number social workers in the district so that school has social work support at least half time We were purchasing and training staff in additional social emotional wellness curriculum. So that staff know what to look for. And how and how to address the needs that they may see in their classroom and Or maybe experiencing themselves and so it you know it's a big lift. There's no question and i'll tell you I'm i'm sure glad i'm here to do it. I mean i feel fortunate to have this opportunity to do it And to work with the people. I work with do work. We're going to do. And i'll tell you what we're glad you're here to do it. To dr riphil ch Greeley evans called six as as superintendent. Thanks so much. Hey my pleasure. Gale have a great rest of me. Take good care do you as well eight thousand nine hundred thirteen ten. Kfi a thirteen ten k. f. a. dot com northern colorado's voice this time check sponsored by the candlelight dinner playhouse in johnstown time is running short bringing you an absolutely incredible musical adaptation of the much beloved little women through six. So if you wanna get in on this event. I would suggest you do it. Too sweet all you have to do is jump online visit. Colorado candlelight dot com k. Light dinner playhouse. In johnstown broadway in your backyard here mornings with gail weekdays. Six to nine and northern colorado's voice thirteen ten kfi k. Tyra effect is at the movies here. Don't forget to listen to my show every saturday on. Kfi a now back to mornings with gail since twenty. Seventeen chinese communist party has been committing genocide in its far western. Xinjiang uber wieger. Autonomous reason region traditionally known as east turkistan imprisoned more than one million of the region's turkic ethnic minorities in what it calls re education camps. But the human abuses. Don't stop there. Someone that knows this firsthand grayson slower Just a great book. Middle country in american student visits a china's wieger prison state. He is a graduate a recent graduate of. Cu balder currently living in washington. Dc joined by grayson slower this morning. Hey grayson hello. Thanks for having me. Yes and thank you so much for taking the time so many questions for you this morning but take us there That week that you describe and just stunning heartbreaking detail as you spent that week as a student tourist in xinjiang. Yeah so. I spent a week in hong During the summer of twenty nineteen And it was after A semester abroad and korea and that was part of my that. That was the way that i use. The student. Tourists Alibi so to speak For going there for a week I just said that I was a of just a college student. Done doing normal traveling after my semester abroad And technically speaking. That was that was true other than me planning to write about it So it was That was how. I how i was able to do it and how to do it in a relatively safe way There and weren't you terrified. I know i would be it. It definitely was Very daunting For different parts but it was There were certain parts of it where it was Like for instance There were a couple of times where i was in like the the major touristy areas and each of the two cities that i went to kashi gar in the south and the regional capital a room. She and the north There were times where it was. So i mean it was so clearly the catering to To tourists that. I completely forgot the site of everything that was going on. Surprise you that push for tourism Just putting on a happy face so to speak well the human rights abuses that are right there particularly when it comes to the swept under continue to be at least in my humble opinion swept under the carpet yet. Yes absolutely I think that it was And it stuff there. The chinese communist party is is definitely working really hard to promote tourism in the region Especially to chinese tourists in eastern china Just to be for the more tourist attraction that because the more of a tourist attraction that it becomes the more of a reputation that it gets as a positive place for tourism The more distract from human rights abuses of course but also the the pretext that they're using for these human rights abuses and the the what they what the chinese communist party claims is of of an extremely Volatile situation with his llamas terrorism in the region or has been before they started all of the of the real crackdown. Three years ago When there's the in the book i go through A number of reasons why that claim is A little bit suspect to say the least but There the the more tourists that they get to go there. The less vote in within china. Well that has as This dangerous place where terrorism is rampant Xinjiang has been called an open air prison. Was that your experience if so why it was so it of course. There's i should preface by saying there's a a very stark difference between my experience there and what we in other turks peoples are experiencing But even for me as an american with an american passport there There's it definitely their cameras. Lum posted Literally every step you take anywhere in the region you're being watched by the facial recognition cameras a quipped with other ai capabilities voice recognition as well And there's also they also have these things called convenience police stations which are yes they are Posted every They they control the a five hundred meter square area every one of them and there throughout the city so basically and there are more checkpoints than there are. These police stations The several times more so essentially what it would be like is. I'll be walking down the street. And i would notice just dozens of cameras all around me. And in addition to that there would be A police checkpoint every block or so then every few blocks would be like a full-size police station. Going to say Convenience police stations convenient. For whom yeah the the. Ccp's very adopted the the euphemisms like that. What about the the weaker the plight of the weaker 's they were why has the entire globe seemingly gone silent on the human rights abuses and everything that is happening to them as well the well i guess As far as america goes We're getting our nike right. Yes that that's a. That's a very good question. I think that There's There are several reasons. Why i think i think one of them that you touched on is the the complicity that a lot of american companies have in dog directly and the genocide of the weaker. It's it's uncomfortable to Pointed out but there's bomb many of these many western companies. There's a. There's a report that i in the book by the australian strategic policy institute that Gives a really shocking list of all of the different western companies. That are Have have supply chains that are directly connected to the weaker forced labor. And nike's one of them coca-cola bmw amazon. A many more in the book. But there's a shocking amount So there there's the there's that aspect of it but there's also in In terms of the other countries throughout the world especially One that's been that especially muslim-majority countries. I think that that's one that's Very surprising to a lot of people surprised me. Had i like knowing what was going on there and seeing that there are i. Don't there isn't a single muslim majority country. That is speaking out about it at all. And that's because of Largely because of china's Economic influence over a lot of these countries and specifically their Their delta rarity in There's a That several trillion dollar Basically Ah trade plan Or just to to expand their economic and political influence throughout the world but there are many muslim-majority countries that have signed onto the belt and road initiative and Part of that initiative or part of that relationship that they have with china is an implicit understanding that they don't criticize china on anything that sensitive to them and this as you might imagine china thanks so there's perhaps the most sensitive topic Well and that seems to be not to drag you into politics grayson but it seems to be an integral component of president biden's foreign relations policy with china. The don't ask. Don't tell ya. I i think that there's there certainly Some things that the the that this administration is doing that is that are Very positive and some things that. I think that they could maybe be the stronger on doing a better job. And i take that the same could be said for the last administration as well okay. That's that's fair enough. I mean given your experience there. I wouldn't disagree. But let's talk about those Beijing winter olympics and as we see this ongoing carnage. And let's call it for what it is protected particularly when it comes to the whitacre's President biden seems to be willing to turn a blind eye to that. Well i think that there's The underpay on the beijing olympic specifically. I think there's a there appears to be A good chance for to hope that we will boycott them. awful for the The olympic athletes that have really devoted their entire lives toward reaching this goal. But my gosh yes. You've got a feel for the slew. As a as a former athlete myself i definitely i definitely sympathize with with how that must feel But there there are There's a in the epilogue to my book i have an interview with A chinese dissident and former chinese lawyer in tang bow and he's He wrote an article recently about this topic And he proposed us the us along with other countries. Who are on board with boycotting it creating kind of Like an alternative olympic games. That would give these athletes the opportunity to compete. And i thought that that was a a A proposal that resonated with me at least absolutely yeah alternatives options. Always a good thing and one ask. You pulled a piece that you had written in hong kong free press back in march twenty twenty saying let's call it. The communist party virus particularly timing timely given the fact that we just learned courtesy of a piece out of the wall street journal. Three researchers from china's wuhan institute the institute of raji became sick enough in november twenty nineteen that they sought Hospital care This gifts wait to those calls for fool or probe of whether that covid nineteen virus might have escaped from the laboratory and was not the work of bats absolutely. I think this certainly isn't it. Isn't anything like my area of expertise but is based on what i what i will my understanding is. I think there's there's absolutely no reason to investigate more thoroughly. And i think that the It seems the investigation that was done by the The the group of scientists. That the the who sent was not Didn't give didn't give a sufficiently invasive investigation whol carries water for the chinese government. I mean come on now. What did you inspired to say. Yeah i would agree with that. And then he respects yeah grayson. Slow is a recent graduate of cu boulder go buffs currently living in the washington. Dc area wrote a great book middle country and american student visit china's prisons state prison state. How did that experience change you. Well i think that it definitely It it definitely changed me in the sense that i have a a more personalized understanding. I guess of the the suffering. That's going on over there in terms of me like i I take one of the things i try to do. in the book is to really captured the the The positive relationships that formed through just the the people that i met during the week. While i was there which is was really surprising to me and i think that was something that was surprising to me. Given just everything that was going on there like that dumb that it was I didn't go in expecting to have the the the people who thought who Were really great. People who i thought that i would like for instance one of my Airbnb hosts I who is han chinese Actually and i thought that We developed a very good relationship. But there's just It's with everything that's going on there. There's just it's really it's impossible to know What everyone is. It's it's just a a big circle of uncertainty. I think i don't know whether or not People that i met there were in certain in certain respects down acting to be frank or two or how genuine they were. That's something that's definitely been that. I've wrestled with a lot since i've left. Then the Has been an unexpected thing. That i've had to try to plug into my understanding of all of it. Will the plight of the weaker ever be fully acknowledged and indeed a rest. Well i hope so. I think that I think that there is a. There's a really good argument even from the the the humanitarian arguments. Elsa think is fairly obvious and straightforward. So i mean genocide is that there's a reason why we have a specific designation of genocide as being an unacceptably evil crime But i think that even from the like just a purely realist perspective. Like there's a. There's a really strong argument to prioritize this issue above For instance yeah exactly commerce economic integration Because there's i mean it's it's integral league conducted to china's surpassing us in certain ways they're profiting off committing this genocide and we are the ones who are buying the stuff that they're making so there's a it's it makes an entirely practical sense as well to do everything we can to decouple ourselves from that and then also punish china for what it's doing to the grayson sliver author of middle country in american student visits china's wieger prison state. Thank you so much for Raising the bar and raising our knowledge and understanding of the plight of the weeks. Where can we find your book. It's available at all. Major retailers like amazon barnes and noble Your local bookstore will probably be able to order it for you as well grayson. Thanks again for your time. Appreciate your thanks so much for having me go you bet grayson slower author middle country and american student visits china's wieger prison state eight fifty four now. Thirteen ten kfi k. The power trip weekdays at eleven on thirteen ten k. f. k if you miss any portion of mornings with gail go to thirteen ten. Kfi aa dot com to download the podcast. Today back to jail shout out to my technical producer extraordinaire each and every day but particularly today. Thank you ryan. Kelly for all you do all right coming up. clark johnson. Poor tanner swint on noko. Now bring you the no co unify kids. Classic from the greeley country club. Thirteen ten kfi k. What are you gonna do lock it right here.
Restart Radio: Global supply chains and The Virus
"Welcome to restart radio a different show about gadgets here on resonance one. Oh, four point, four FM. This is a different show because unlike most we're not gonNA focus on all those new shiny shiny things for you to buy. Instead we focus on the value in the stuff we already have the restart project aims for a shift of behavior towards a more sustainable and a happier relationship with electronics and our monthly community ix of repair events here in London are just the beginning. My name is Jennifer Gunter from the research project and I'm joined by Panda Mary who's One of our longtime volunteers Yeah and we've got A show today which will touch on some of the things that you've probably been talking about with friends and family, but maybe from a different angle. So we're GONNA talk about some issues that have been brought to light about tech production supply chains, and the sustainability of electronics in light of one big story, the virus that you've probably been talking about. And, we're going to talk a little bit about two stories that you might not have heard so much about in terms of technology supply chains. But before we start on on supply chains, which you know believe me, it's a really interesting topic. Okay. We're GONNA talk about a couple of new stories which which probably merit. Some, quick discussion. So apple, one of our favorite companies to chat about has some a class action lawsuit over what's been called battery gate centrally slowing down of iphones via an S. update. They settled for five hundred, million dollars in the US which seems like a lot of money. But if you think of it as only. Point say point zero four percent of their net capitalization or only point five percent of their quarterly profits. It doesn't seem necessarily like such a big fine and to put it in perspective apple was fined by European regulators for battery gate ten, million euros in Italy and twenty, five, million euros in France and so these these fines from regulators start to look like little bugs platz in comparison. now for to me, it seems like it's your argument that if they want to enforce regulation, they need to they enforceable regulation they need regulation that prevents things like that. They don't want as opposed to trying to punish companies things they don't want. You have a different take on Pana. A. Combined civil issues the. And what we want is to be able to use the device for Longo. The I find that the technology implemented to slowdowns device. So the social events would last a whole day. Instead of just weekly deying images a day that is a positive thing because you can use your phone for Longo but the problem is that they didn't communicate it. So the phone was was just getting men getting worse and worse and not knowing why wetting, and so they don't buy a new battery to if they want to really regain. The. I've and. And so that's A key. Issue is that if they wanted to buy some battery at per does not sell replacement parts to to Orleans sundry, you only have to go swept also. Focusing on the wrong part, the problem is is out to ensure that the that's the device lasts Congo and for that. You, want Good communication of technical decisions. People can trust was thing and available pots totally agree and those are the kind of things that need to happen like they need to be. In regulation before as opposed to just we didn't life out. Oh, that didn't work. And Funny Enough we ended up talk we ended up talking about. About this battery with on Ed milliband podcast last week, which was really quite amusing check that out if you if you're interested second story which you will only hear about here for sure because it's just so not sexy is well nobody literally nobody was watching our friends at fix it and an NGO in Brussels called echoes. Basically. Got A pretty big victory, which is they had participated in years of consultation about standards on electric's electronic repairability and these standards are pretty comprehensive. I would say they're pretty interesting they're not necessarily for the average person to go and read Rich person for we cannot anyway with them because they're not typically available this is the point. Four by four if you wanted to root for it. But I, think, you need to it. I think the what's interesting is that the mean it was kind of a joint approach with a with Fangio condition that you mentioned on. Manufacturer who reckon of being from another position. and. So then I of. Looking at at which part of the of the products I mean the standard should focus on physical parts somewhere software and then identify it. So the default dimension of repair beauty. And proposal which properties of the products the standard should cover. Yeah. And I I think I can't stress enough how good it is for the freeing of the average ordinary person to have somebody else in those meetings. That's not a high paid industry person. Because it does it takes years and years of attending meetings and really technical To come up with something that can benefit all of us, and I'm sure we'll I. Hope in future at our repair events we may benefit from knowing more about the repairability of products as we're trying to repair them, and we can help inform people who come to our events about learning a little bit more about repairability and repairability scoring is one of the big one of the big policy. Proposals of the right to repair campaign in Europe as well. Do you have an example given? This standard is? Is Feasible repair is we best class where you don't need any tools. Going to not visible at all, even with any tools. Of, a, to e and so that would be that would be useful to know in advance, of course, when being device, but it did on the point of the. Of the company. So being Ford on time on because it's not secure to to exist Shannon and of course, the national have budgets for people to to attend and Libby and and ride drafts that's done of course. In. WANTS SING WHEN NGO was. More more organization that that favors to repair. You really have much smarter jets to be able to participate fully in these in these negotiations. Credit to the people we know them personally who sat in these meetings they're extremely dedicated and extremely knowledgeable, and they're doing a good service to everyone and the last thing we wanted to mention that came was news that here in the UK that are basically minister of the Ministry of Environment Deaf Fra has decided to slash you waste collection targets. So we missed we missed. The target by quite a big quite a big percentage last year, which probably could have been predicted and instead of I guess you know really going going all out and committing to this target of of sixty five percent. Basically of the electron put on the market should be eventually collected. Instead of dedicate ourselves that we've decided just to slash are slash the collection target. And analysts I'm not an industry. I don't work in this part of the industry recycling part, but analysts have said including. Nigel Harvey's CEO of an Industry Company called Ricoh light he says. This year, the proposed collection targets are fundamentally different in two, thousand, nine, hundred, nine, the targets were set particularly higher to reflect the European target this year, there's no reference to the target at all, and even if the proposed twenty twenty targets are met, the e U target will probably be missed. This appears to be to signal a decision not to be bound by e targets as we go through the brexit transition phase. So I suppose this is yet another signal of some bad news that we may be facing what do you make of it? In the beginning control was put into the mix of of between being leading the way. That's not with him to. to to be to be facing yeah. That's the point where they keep saying we're going to do better what it's like. Well, this seems to be proof that were not even gonNA try. So that's disappointing moving on though I think we'll. We'll. We'll. Let's let's let's talk about supply chains the virus and technology. But I think before we start I, really WANNA make a disclaimer here because as we're particularly interested in technology I, think we should just consider how power humans and technology relate to each other before diving into a topic that relates to epidemic. I mean evidence would contend to bring out some of the scariest parts of human nature. Relating to our fear of the other other for to our desire for safety at all costs I mean they can also lead to acts of heroism obviously. But. And for those who didn't read Fuko or study semiotics or even read the notes. Like it seems that the ability of the state to mobilize technology to exercise power and particularly over our bodies is like huge issue that we just we absolutely need to face and social theorists have written so much about it but most of the influential tax are so dense and written accessible language and I just wanted to note that if you go to simple wikipedia you can. Find almost, any really difficult concept on physics explained in simple language. But if you go to simple wikipedia and you want to find something about like explaining bio power this important really important concept, you can't find it and I'm really not hearing enough critical reporting on the use of technology and the power of the state and its various contractors in relation to all of this so. We're not going to go into great length about but some topics we should mention as you know the way that. Far Right. The right is using the virus to push anti immigration xenophobia online. And there's just been you know there's some questions around privacy in the way that some countries have reported on infections. Did, you have anything to add there. Yes. That's one thing which is which is not that much is that many of these measures I mean there are some exceptional measures that are put in place in Clinton Community of Santen China. The APPS that that's shows a green yellow Red that let you get out of all men go through all the checkpoints are not and in a very obscure women the how how what's Did say that. But even if you consider the exception measures are warranted in this because of the fear. Of That is I mean all the epidemics? That is getting more widespread, the animal destitute with it. So it's GONNA be definitively. Some of this material could be very justified in this climate. But how many of these exceptional visuals? Would remain as normalized. And will not be removed. When's the exceptionally T, as GONNA Story as that's that's. A problem. Yeah definitely. I mean I suppose moving onto the heart of the matter. It's just important to keep that in mind that when you know that yeah that exactly the kind of exceptional moment and the way in which technology power and bodies kind of interact. Well. I, think. One of the pieces that most caught our attention and really glad that Kyle wiens the founder and CEO vowed fix it wrote a piece. About supply chain, a breakdown, and and. Shortages and disruption and he wrote you basically wrote about how we've lost a lot of resilience in the way the global economy is structured in particularly way that let electroncs are produced and will will quote him here he says. Company takes apart all the latest gadgets to find out what's inside, and we regularly discover components from dozens of countries. The iphones a twelve processor for example, is designed by Apple's teams in California and Israel. Using technology developed a UK based but Japanese owned company and fabricated in Taiwan using equipment from the Netherlands the more complex, the product, the product, the more susceptible it is to disruption. And in this piece, which is called, the right to repair will help us endure outbreaks. Colleen suggest that that that we get much better at reusing and raising components within electron that a lot of things probably have to change for us to do that at a structural level what do you make of it from the year? I think you will so point. So that's the importance of. Having, a replacement parts made available the industry for for the retail market and. I understanding from that same as that that in fact, part of his purchasing team, four parts to repair some devices is is being stuck in Tijuana. Because He. Aware. I assume that we're going to buy some part in China. Because again, I mean large manufacturers such as Apollo did not sell outs to to small companion exit yes and we'd seen In monitoring communications from UK based. parts, companies that they've been tracking this probably earlier than most people. So we'd heard a lot about the virus and more kind of out of a humanitarian concern was happening in one I think in in January and February but but quite early on we heard you know companies that we tend to recommend people source parts. You Know Veasley cautioning people in saying what we're really we're starting to were monitoring this and we're starting to. To run low on so that that affects resilience because. which I mean. The large manufacturers are affected because they factories after some of the factories of tickles no because of the city mix. And Solutions. Is Reduced. So some of them aren't available numerous Donald Johnston is postponed, and so if you've got a device that breaks you want to be able to repair it. And If it's if it's required that schematics another volleyball if it requires no how. Of Bothers available on Dan that's that affects what you can do with your own device. If, you can't repay them can fix them. That's that's might affect. Your life in quite negative ways. So you want to be to increase resilience which does having a good repair economy. For sure and I mean, what was striking to me is we can see how big the carbon footprint of manufacture is also by the data that's coming out about the lower emissions. So this was really quite amazing to me. I mean, obviously there other sources of missions which are you know which are kind of lowered by by that kind of stay at home orders but you can imagine that industry is largely responsible for a lot of these lowering of emissions there The New York Times reported that that there was a twenty five percent decrease in emissions over the same periods I believe in January February which really has it really shows that you know that when when we stop or when we saw being able to buy stuff, there's there's that knock on effect. And it has it would that the stuff that we have has such a such a footprint. Another thing that was raised by a couple of commentators was kind of complacency around even just raw materials. That the factories were also struggling to get raw materials. So it wasn't just assembly or manufacturer that that the thing goes all the way down the supply chain. I think that many people don't realize how complex dissipation is for any tweaks voice I mean they tends to be hundreds of thousands of companies and and I mean it goes from you think of the processor or possibly and sort of big elements. But you've got civil elements that goes into potential and then it goes down to the screws even see not. So you need everything to come together audience to make the product that you having. An. Knots not even including the transportation. Things different places so if you've got. As all these companies to use. Technology to have things just in time just in place if you have something that breaks somewhere in the world in that in that survey, China then read days in the fact that effective is on the it's something we don't even think we think of delivery drivers bringing us things because are the ones that we see. We don't think of all the delivery drivers that exists throughout the supply chain and all of those various trips. Well, we've seen texts. Big Tech stocks are falling also in relation to this and sales, and it's not just. But. You also have the know how I mean you get engineers that's needs to move from different places from companies to factories song, and if they're if there's no flights on restriction on travels then that can affect was prediction. Even if you've got all the remarks, you need to produce it. Well. Yeah. I mean I don't think we can do this topic justice right now Hollywood you like to make a a alive announcement to take a quick break. Yes. So tomorrow is a lost day that we're running the petition for e right to repair cellphones smartphones even campaign so The European right pack on pain co founded by restore partners in Belgium and Germany launched a petition lost month too austere opinions require smartphone manufacturers to give us the right to our paraffins. Um and we think this is important because smartphones are pretty much unavoidable in everyday lives and they generate billions in profit for big manufacturers, puce them, which means the most regulatory efforts in the area of stoled to get them repairable. So if Europe adopts right to repair legislation, it lands by other regions of the world to fully serve to make this happen, and that's why important fee to sign even in the UK. So you can sign the petition at repaired dot Edu, slash smartphones. Yeah I, think we're doing pretty well signatures Tele final push. Yeah. Definitely. And we're expecting a big announcement from Brussels tomorrow on that one. So to move onto the other topics related to the supply chain which I it's funny because once you start thinking about. The power of the virus kind of capture everyone's attention i. mean we started the show with. You realize that actually so many other important news is getting ignored, and so one of the big stories that I just couldn't believe there was not enough attention to was a report by an Australian think tank a very mainstream Australian think tank The Australian Strategic Policy Institute that basically showed that are weaker. Forced Labor has made its way into many electronics, companies, supply chains, but not only also including companies. Now, this is not forced labor Incheon, Zhang or the areas where we are people tend to live. This is actually weaker. People being forcefully moved to other areas of production in China. And the report. Accuses that they are also. That they have separate living facilities that they're they're under potentially potentially more surveillance and other workers at these facilities. And this implicates Apple Samsung Sony Hallway. It's it's leading. All of them. So it's basically one the leading companies that makes cameras and displays for for electron ix and I just I read this report was absolutely you know. I was really shocked. I thought I. Mean. It takes a lot to shock me actually but I, but shocked even more was the lack of media coverage of this of response to this. I wasn't aware of it until you you mentioned to me and then from this report, which is absolutely shocking. Yes. I honestly don't know what to say like we've looked at you know there's been a lot of attention to labor in the supply chain of electron specifically Foxconn, one of Apple's big contractors. And, some of the issues there have been internships. These kinds of coercive internships where students are basically forced to work. I'm over a certain period of time, and it's almost like their degree is kind of held in limbo until they finish. Finish work at a factory and that in of itself is a problem. Working on the complexity of supply chain and I, think that's another aspect of the complexity is that's my understanding is that it's I think some some lucrative and teaching Jan who are contracting with the companies to. Brandt people are we goes for this for the factories and so I mean who is. On the and some of them are isolated on in in stricter working conditions whether they worked more than ten hours a day because that includes e. Education to be more Chinese as well as the particularly education. And so. That's is not I mean these. The contract between the people playing these resources, human resources. Are Not with the. Manufacturers like EPO. In. Avoidance on. Their. Companies further down the Rhine. So how to increase the transparency throughout survey China so he's coming up and anymore is it just seems to me that I mean I feel like we've been talking about this stuff since the nineties I just feel like these companies I you know they can. They can cry that it's so difficult. So difficult. They're making huge amounts of money off of these products and. You know. I just I can't believe that they can audit the supply chains better I just I. Don't focus is on technology, but the same thing happened his widow. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean. So please if you're at all concerned look this off, it's really shocking and. I honestly don't know how to take action other than. than. Bring it up with the companies that you buy from. One of the things that that I think we might want to quickly discusses. His Chemicals so It may not come as a surprise to listeners but. The chemical lobby and chemical manufacturers are are in producers or some of the biggest and was well-funded lobbyists in the world definitely in Brussels But one thing caught my attention recently about chemicals in the supply chain was this investigative piece written by reveal news Where where basically? EAP, the EPA uncovered the the damage that. Particular chemical was making and essentially the White House just surpress it rewrote it. Got Rid of it. The the solvent in question I believe is mostly used for cleaning. It's called trichloroethylene TC. And obviously I don't think we have anything is horrendous happening yet in the UK or in Europe. In terms of you know such a cynical. Attempt against. Public, health. But I definitely think that. This is one we need to watch especially in kind of the the era we're in now. Again. To go back to supply chain is that you have to consider a people that are working directly for the company people that are working for the contractor and people were working in factories abroad I. Mean if you take the example of I am Song which Lester, fight unsettled quite a few. Accidents. Where people get Freaky Mio, bench. Took exciting fifteen years for people and many times to get some settlement? Different cleaning was calling benzine and different chemical. But yes, that that's where for people who are directly employed by. then. There is people that are over contractors don't think got settlements. then. There was a report or socialist here that the condition that factories outside for outside of career find something Vietnam, where where where Samsung is trying to push some prediction that they can. have in Kerala right now because of some of the victories are being crossed the deputy mix. Is a worse than. The one company in one country. So this is an issue for that. We need to face in the UK because if we're going to do this hard brexit, this extreme brexit or whatever they're proposing, we may not have access to some of the key European databases on chemicals on. Their the chemicals, their impacts on users on workers on this. Something that I just don't think that how could how could one country ever keep up as well as a block of twenty eight countries and it we we stand to lose really important information related to public health, and also the fact that I mean this little manufacturing in the UK itself four eighty. Six and The, the this offshoring of the manufacturing. Shouldn't absolve the industry of responsibility of what's happening outside when products are being used using the UK. Sure absolutely. Hope. We've. wakened some interest in supply chains. That is absolutely an important topic that we should be following really closely If. You'd like help with anything fixing related with the plug or with a battery. You can find us in our community events at our website, the restart project dot org, or you can find us on twitter or facebook Thanks to optimize Cassini sound for music which is made with. Lasers plastic spinning disks, and discarded electronics, and We're here live every second Tuesday of the month at five PM. So until until next time.
The Duo: Too Much for Too Little? - DTNS 3863
"If you're a business owner, you don't need us to tell you that running a business is tough, but you might be making it harder on yourself. The necessary don't let quickbooks in spreadsheets, slow you down anymore. It's time to upgrade to net sweet stop paying for multiple systems that don't give you the information you need when you need it ditch the spreadsheets, and all the old software you've outgrown now is the time to upgrade to net suite by Oracle, the world's number one cloud business system. Nets, we gives you visibility and control over your financials hr inventory ecommerce and more everything you need all in one place instantaneously. Let net sweet show you how though benefit your business with a free product tour nets. We dot com slash DT, NS schedule your free product to a right now at net sweet dot Com Slash D. T. S. net sweet dot com slash DT an ass. So your architecture has the latest and greatest technologies congratulations except now you need a dozen monitoring services and a lot of them have hidden costs worst of all when something goes wrong, you waste precious time jumping between tools. It's not right and new relic heard you. We've reworked everything so you can use telemetry data from any source monitor your full stack from one place and use ai to fix issues faster. We've also massively simplified our pricing to no more hidden cost and no more wasted time and I know it sounds like a bunch of marketing jargon. So call us on it you can get one user one, hundred gigabytes per month for free seriously, not a trial not a demo just free. Check it out at new relic dot Com observability made simple. Coming, up on. First Impressions of the Microsoft duo dual screen phone is it a phone? Amazon makes printing by Voice Command. Actually work and the TIKTOK deal looks harder and harder all the time. This is the Daily News for Thursday September Tenth Twenty Twenty in Los Angeles on Merit and from Studio Redwood I'm Sarah Lane from the orange skies of Oakland. I'm Justin Robert Young. Man The show's producer Roger. We were just talking about how your skies are no longer orange. Thank goodness. Congratulations on that all of. Oliver. Yellow, now. And we were also talking about strange mysterious uber charges as as well as the Microsoft duo. We might do a, we're taking it out of the box live tomorrow on the show it a good day. Internet that's where you get health. Patriot dot com slash. S Let's start with a few things you should know. Those announced the noise cancelling quite comfort ear buds for two hundred, seventy dollars also the one hundred, seventy, nine dollars, sports, ear buds, successors to the noise cancelling headphones seven, hundred and five hundred. Both will be available on September twenty September twenty-ninth with pre orders. Now open both also introduced three new pairs of its frame line of Sunglasses with integrated speakers. The company says has improved audio over its. Predecessors tenor, soprano, and tempo are all the lions all for two hundred, forty, nine dollars available now and prescription ready. Microsoft announced the version of its game pass service will double in price from four dollars ninety nine cents to nine dollars ninety nine cents a month starting September seventeenth the service had been in Beta under the cheaper price game pass on the xbox already caused nine, ninety, nine, a month or fourteen, ninety, nine for game pass ultimate, which also includes console N.. Amdi announced an for October eighth to announce new CPA's using its zen three architecture a second event on October twenty eighth. We'll give details on the radio and RX six thousand series that's the one that uses its RDA to architecture a same architecture is used in the US for a look that X. box series and five consoles. The announced that see, yes, twenty twenty one will be rescheduled from January sixth through the ninth to January eleventh through the Fourteenth Verizon CEO. Hans Westberg. will deliver the kickoff keynote for the online only CAS. Apple's new reported custom phase mass for employees have a three layer designed to filter particles are washable and can be reused up to five times between washes back in April. Apple sent out millions of facials to essential workers and hospitals. They snapback wash after wash. Why away announced at its annual developer conference in Doggone that it plans to launch its proprietary harmony Os on its smartphones and twenty twenty one while we said HMS core has been called, which is designed to replace Google play services includes ninety six, thousand aps up from eighty one thousand in July and sixty thousand in March, but still short of the millions in the Google play store. Tighter US restrictions against alway go into effect on September fifteenth. As result Samsung, L. and S K high next will reportedly stopped selling chips to walkway. That means that while we will have to source its Nand Flash, IT'S RAM and it's Ola displays elsewhere didn't stop a wall way though from announcing update to its but make book. X. And make book. Fifteen laptops for sale in October and updated watch gt to pro and free buds with improved noise cancellation. facebook. Formally submitted complaints about apple to the EU after the EU ask for consultation on its digital. Services. Act facebook complained about quote the application of apples, policies and technical controls around in payments Gaming APPs log in tools and online advertising. Adding that Apple's privileges privileges, its own services and Revenue Stream to the detriment of other facebook during in the party. Great Motorola announced the second generation of its razor foldable phone similar to the original phone. It offers a six point two, inch twenty, one, point nine, two, nine aspect ratio foldable display inside the phone has a two point seven inch lead on the outside when it's folded up, it also adds sub six Gigahertz Five G. thanks to the snapdragon seven, sixty, five G. chip inside and will be available unlocked on at and T. and T. mobile for fourteen hundred dollars later this fall. The Portland Oregon City Council unanimously voted to approve to on facial recognition the I immediately bands the acquisition and use facial recognition used by city bureaus including the police. The second ban applies to private use of facial recognition in places of public accommodation starting. January. First Twenty twenty, one Portland says it's taking precautionary actions against these technologies are certified until these technologies are certified rather and safe to use and civil liberties issues are resolved. All right. Let's talk a little more about something I assumed Justin we'll have a great impact on society. Yes, the ground trembled when twitter announced expanded efforts to fight election misinformation in the US set to go into effect September seventeenth twitter will remove or attach a warning label claims of victory prior to election results being official it specifically mentioned quote. Inciting unlawful conduct to prevent a transfer power orderly succession and quote twitter we're also will also move or add labels do post with false or misleading information about this process like who can vote or what documents are needed to vote. Twitter will also act unquote unverified information about election rigging ballot tampering, vote tallying or certification of election results and quote also Google updated its auto complete policy. Say It will quote remove predictions that could be interpreted as a claim about participation in the election and quote as well as quote predictions that could be interpreted as claims or against any candidate or political party and quote suggested how much will these actions saved democracy? Absolutely nothing. Bad Don't get US wrong. We're not saying that they shouldn't do these things and they're not bad. They're Klis and the fact that that they're doing them is because people on their on their platform are yelling about it. They're yelling for them to do something do something at Jack do something Google you are are causing this problem and I understand that internally there is probably a lot of pressure even with those who work there that believed that they. Have a control on how society thinks however from the perspective of somebody that watches the news come in and come out and twitter's role in it. The idea twitter makes more news than they do suppress news. They believe that they are a dumb pipe, but they are not if they were to remove somebody saying it looks very clear that Donald Trump or Joe Biden have won the election and they deem that to be something that is on. Beyond the bounds of declaring what is appropriate to declare victory that would become such a bigger story. Then somebody who just said it and somebody's saying, it might be the biggest story of the year. I mean yeah. If someone writes someone associated with a campaign rights, it's all. But over folks X is your next president that violate this right? Even though the spirit of what I just said is is more of like cheerleading. Because people get introduced at their campaign rallies as the next president of the United States, right? That's just a thing you do. So I don't know it's weird. It's a weird line to draw and I'm not against them doing it. I, guess I just don't know how much of an effect it really has the Google auto complete might actually have a little more effective as it might stop people from landing on fake pages that tell them fake information maybe I don't know. That that brings us into a whole `nother thing about Google. Hand. Picking and choosing where the auto completes go, which is its own little e controversy politically that that they believe that there are a nave had project Veritas for example, has had like Google engineers showing how things will be removed even though they are easily far higher organically in terms of auto completes. So that's that's up to them. That's their own product that they are going to further Make sure they prune so they don't feel that. Information is getting out there. But I in terms of the twitter stuff I get it. They have to do it I'm sure they they're getting internal pressure I'm sure that they are getting pressure from there. I know they're getting pressure from their user base to quote unquote do something do I think that this actually does anything? No no, I don't. I'M GONNA, make one of those peanut gallery quotes. But. Don't don't. They always claim victory before the official results are out anyway like isn't that a thing like the polls projections are so clear I'm going to concede like somebody usually concedes and then somebody claims. Like it usually isn't an official. Election win. Even. A little different no, no, no I mean. We are effectively ceding power to decision desks all the networks have decision, independent decision desks. Those are the people that effectively we are. We call the election on at a certain point on election night both Joe Biden and Donald, trump will have an agreement with their staff that at one one decision desk calls it then they will. Congratulate the other. What if somebody can seeds before the officials? Well. We're getting into some we're getting into it's. Sticky sticky political. Well this might. Make some of you. Happy if you have Amazon devices because the company announced a voice controlled printing feature, the let's Amazon Echo. Owners print items like to do lists or recipes from all recipes weekly calendars, educational content kids even games like Crossword Puzzles Sodano Oku from the La Times the future works with second get or near echoes an IP enabled printers from HP. Brother Canon. Upson. Kind of the big is is very printer goes with more printers to be added over time you can check by telling your echo to discover my printer and once it's set up, you can say print across puzzle or print graph paper or print a chicken recipe. Also, the episode Echo will remind you if you're running low on ink or Toner which is the worst, but it will remind you anyway and you can even order replacements for you, and that's why do they want to sell you the toner and the right? which is very expensive. Just bought some and and and it would be nice to be able to say like, Hey, you're on toner do you want me to order new and have me not have to worry about looking up like is this the rice model because it knows because of the connection? I get. That's all great. I was super skeptical about printer networking because in my life printer networking has never gone right? It's always a pain getting stuff to print wi fi always goes wrong. And so I thought. Well. I'M GONNA try this out. Well, let's just see and I said My Printer fifteen seconds later it said I have discovered your brother printer and like okay. But did it really and I said print a crossword puzzle at said I'm adding the L. A. Times skill to print a crossword puzzle is that all right and I said yes. Would you like me to print a crossword puzzle? I said yes and like A minute later, I had a crossword puzzle printed out. It's. Worked with like no intervention. Settings I talked to the thing. To say I was kind of impressed by that. Yeah pretty cool you know. I'm not a printer fan I i. wish us all to have a pay per free life one day but we're not there yet and I do have a printer of my own that I have to use occasionally, and this is really cool. You know the the idea of like I don't know telling you know. Yelling into the wind to turn my lights on and now works was very fascinating to me at one point. Now, it's just part of life being able to tell my printer to do various things based on skills is is the same kind of cool. Yeah, I don't know about chicken recipes. I feel that one's a little more of a shot in the dark but yeah. I'm like aren't I supposed to look at that on the Echo? Now, recipe or you're printing. Eight Wall Street Journal sources say. Discussing arrangements with the US government that would let it avoid a full sale of its US operations. One option. Being discussed would be taking on a technology partner to secure the data so that I think the idea there would be, let's say Microsoft says we'll handle the data will keep it secure and in the US and it'll be under our control, and then we'll provide you access with it, but you still run TIKTOK in the Algorithm representative from us. Investors Invite dance reportedly met with the CIA last week to discuss data security on Tiktok. An executive order banning TIKTOK originally did set a deadline of September twentieth, but don't forget there was a subsequent executive order that made the deadline for a transaction November twelfth. So they still got a little time. And don't forget last week China put technology like tic talks recommendation Algorithm on a list of tech that would require government approval to be exported essentially scuttling the deal because if you can't get China to sign off on selling that algorithm, what good is buying Tiktok. We also have some other tiktok stuff going on Tiktok gave reporters of virtual tour of its transparency center in La to show how its recommendation Algorithm works. There's also a report from the Australian strategic. Policy Institute accusing Tiktok of limiting discovery of videos with LGBTQ, hashtags in the countries of Bosnia Jordan and Russia Tiktok I said those terms are restricted to comply with local laws. They also added sometimes they were restricted because they were only used to get to porn, and it was a way to crack down on porn but then it also admitted that some phrases were moderated by mistake and it's fixed the error in it regrets it. That part is more like mouth tiktok moderation is never been terribly clean and right as they're launching their transparency center. They had a bad example of it, but I think that first story is is the bigger one of these which is. It doesn't sound like a deal can be reached and TIKTOK scrambling around to try to get the US government to come to a compromise and say what if we don't sell all of it because it doesn't look like we can. We'd rather not be shut down altogether. What do you got? Well. We do not know what is going on here I do believe this is probably the most fascinating transaction story that has happened in tech over the last twenty five years. The fact that we do have a product that is as explosive as tiktok is that is for sale. That's very dog bites man that it's being forced to sell, and it might sell at less than what market value would be because of pressures that are far beyond what normally goes on for something like this is indeed, very, very, very unique but what I see here is the fact that Bite Dan and. The whatever interests are here that are US based that probably do want to just move on with whatever version of their future is they are trying to buy either time or leverage of. Just, either re underline from their perspective to the government. Hey, this is an easy. You can look you can smash the hammer on us and yes, we might shatter into a bunch of pieces but you're you're going to ruin something that a lot of people like that's not what you want but you do want is is this being on more US soil? Control. By US forces what we can offer you is that ultimately though when this is more from a political perspective. There's not a lot of give on China right now an either trump or biden. I. Don't believe would want to be the guys that say. Maybe China's okay here even if it's just the TIKTOK. I think that this is something that is more of a death rattle before we get a deal. Now what that deal looks like an exactly what role the Chinese government plays in it that remains to be sick. Yeah. This this this tells me that they can't get a deal where they sell their operations in Australia or Canada New Zealand in the US because they can't get the algorithm they know that China not approve the algorithm China made a death move there. So now they're looking like what other kinds of deals could we have where we hold onto the algorithm because China won't let it out But we do something that is acceptable to you and the only thing that would work. In theory would be saying, let's let Oracle or Microsoft or somebody control the data because that's what you're concerned about is the data at can we meet with the CIA and get reassurance from them? Like here's what we'd have to do for you to feel comfortable with that data for you to claim victory of like essentially the majority of the operation that was a concern is now under control. Can. We do that? That's a big question like that. All makes sense to me and I think it sounds reasonable given the conditions that have been set but whether the US government says, no, we really don't care. If you go away, we really don't care if you go under that's a harder one I. There's there's a reason why these sources are bike Dan sources. Because I don't think that this is the US government that this is something that they want to go for it. Yeah. You don't think the US government wants to go for this at all, oh? No. Bite dance talking, and the only way is for those sequoia. Investors to convince like there's GonNa be some damage caused by this. That that, you're not taking into account that sounds like a hard sell for me. A new way for college students to connect hey, that sounds familiar. The section is called campus and like the facebook of old, it only lets you interact with people at your school and includes a campus only. Groups events and Campus Chats A- campus directory lets you find and friend other students. You'll need dot Edu address. And your graduation year to join, and then you'll create a campus specific profile with options for things like majors, classes, dorms, and CETERA. Campus campus is being tested with thirty universities in the United States and no Harvard. The original home of the facebook is not one of them. Had Don't know there were a lot of like Haha look at facebook getting back to its roots stories about this when when the company first launch this initiative and that's not really what this is I mean facebook isn't changing at all this becomes something that's like if you want to. Access one of the somewhat buried you know. Options that facebook gives people and this being one of them you can I suppose if you were. I don't know have an EDU address. It's like. If. You really wanted to be. I don't know like I like talk about your teacher or is it like there are certain things that I guess this would be a good use for, but it you could already just. Be Friends with people that you want to be friends with on facebook I just don't quite know what the company is going for here as as somebody who logged onto facebook initially on the JR Yaun Zero two at s why are dot edu email? You really need indeed one of the first schools that non. Ivy's to get it when it was first rolling out this is dumb and yet another way that facebook can overcomplicate their interface that makes it less usable. So they, they have it. From Hacker News, we found a posting from September seventh by Neil from the APP maker. Solitaire about why the company dropped email registration for its APPS. The short version is that email reminders didn't appreciably appreciably improve retention, but the neal notice that his sister didn't want to register an account because she didn't want to give her email. So since email registration was an additional cost, the company experimented with dropping email registration and then only asking a user for their name and their password to register registration rose at thirty six percent after the change and retention improved four point, five percent. So more users are trying other games from the company as well. Yeah. Just a username that's all. We. Don't need your email address. Just, to use her name and suddenly a bunch more people registered a thirty six percent more people registered I think this is a great example of a company noticing that man there's a lot of people who do the don't like the thing that we want them to do because it's beneficial to us. I wonder if we stopped knowing them what unexpected benefits we might get. And they got unexpected BEV benefits. They got not only increased engagement with registration because people like, Oh, I don't even have to give an email address. No problem love to have have an account. Great. Yeah. But it kept people and they started trying other Games from the company. So this might not work for every company out there, but I think it's a great lesson that sometimes. Even. Though you want behavior like, I. Don't know getting a bunch of students to sign up for a special new service because students don't use your service anymore doesn't mean that the users want that behavior and so you have to give this the users, what they want and they will engage with your platform more. And this is and error and I don't think that there's one a one way to eat. And certainly, facebook is a very complicated service that I think has kinda gained in esteem as we have realized the problems with some of our walled garden that we created to replace the clutter of it But the idea that I could actually do a thing online and not immediately get spammed with text and emails. Oh. Boy would that be thrilling. Yeah I. Think this does bring up the idea of. I'm sure somebody out there is saying. But what about newsletters newsletters hot you gotTa have a newsletter and that's email. That's that's content people want. Newsletters are people sign up for newsletters because they want you to email them that and they unsubscribe trust me as as people who run newsletters. And subscribe as soon as you mildly annoyed them or they don't find it useful anymore. Folks. If you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes, be sure to subscribe daily Tech Headlines Dot. com. When might you be buzzed when you suddenly love everything? I love this song. I love these NACHO. I love our kickball league. I love this guy, what's your name? You know what I love a ride when it's time to head out. If you see above warning sign colfer ride when it's time to go home buzzed driving is drunk driving a message from Nitsa and the Ad Council I love your car is this real leather. The reviews are out for the Microsoft duo android dual screen phone don't call the phone, but it's also not a tablet. I don't know it's the thing. Here's what we're seeing in aggregate I I think the top line is best put by Atom Ismael over at Tom's guide. The Microsoft do he says is exciting and maddening all at once that seems to summarize what reviewers. Are saying on the pro side, all of them like that it can do to upset once in a way, no other device can't side-by-side on two different screens like having multiple monitors. But in a smaller device, they liked that you can use android phone apps. This is not a tablet. So you're not dealing with a lack of tablet optimized APPs because it's a phone size screen. It's got great battery life everyone raves how pretty this thing is it's a beautiful design while manufactured thin and light opinions vary on how much productivity benefited has but pretty much everybody seems to think it made them at least feel more productive. If not actually be more productive, it does have a learning curve to get there though the software that was designed for it mostly. For Microsoft does seem to work. Well, the hinge got praise from multiple reviewers for being sturdy and allowing for those good orientations like ten view for for watching video or holding in your hands like a book sports, Microsoft Pen and lots of people praise the screen Nice. Sharp screens dual five point, six inch lead. But here, the cons everybody agrees too expensive for what you get. Thousand Three hundred, ninety, nine dollars for a phone that doesn't have NFC Wifi six wireless charging expandable storage five G. or stereo speakers is too much everybody pan the camera actually there one or two people didn't think the camera was that bad. But most people pan the camera it's eleven megapixel Webcam on a smartphone camera in fact I think it was the verge who said you just call it a Webcam and it would have been fine. Buggy. laggy software was a complaint not enough APPs that support the dual screens was a complaint. You can't use it with one hand because it's so wide even when it's folded up and that learning curve man, it involves Microsoft gestures on top of android justice none of which seemed intuitive to the reviewers Mary Jo Foley said, it could replace an e reader in her opinion it was great for that was mixed on. Brad Sam's at Petrie said quote for those who have been waiting for years for a surface PDA your day has finally arrived but for those looking for a general purpose smartphone, this likely isn't your hardware. Going through the pros Y- as you were. Going through them Tom it's like this sounds pretty great. Sounds pretty great right but it's very expensive. So what's wrong with it? Well, you have the same it's the same people saying we'll I can't use it in one hand. I. Mean. It's a dual screen device that that's kind of silly but it's it's like we we continue to be searching for the next Gen of smart devices and we. Don't really know what that's going to be yet, and we're getting all these like is it foldable? Is a dual screen is that this or that but this would like horrible camera I'm sorry I would never buy something like this for that price with with a camera that is so lacklustre I don't understand what this is and to be like, oh, it's like a next Gen e-readers they somewhat laughable. It. If you can't interact with it, it doesn't matter and whatever all these pro czar if if the if the software's buggy or laggy if the gestures or something that that, prevent you from wanting to interact with it with with all these things that are really positive. The idea that it does look pretty the idea that it does have greater surface area and you can run multiple things none of that matters if it's buried under. The ice of software that frustrates you and gestures that you can't educate us at on top of that if it's expensive and now you're going to have a higher bird entry. Then I think we have a, we have an even higher a threshold Brit to pass that it doesn't sound like it did I mean I will say that Mary Jo Foley quote is withering like it could replace an e. reader is among the most. backhanded compliments in. Tech reviews. She's not a review. She makes that clear just just opinion on it but yeah. I. You know this may be an answer in search of a question which case it's doomed. But a lot of these reviewers felt like there was something to it. They're like there's something here. We don't know quite what it is, but we liked it and all of the cons if you look at them are fixable in a second Gen. You can get on the price you can add hardware features or you can improve the software like none of these things are killers out of the gate not and they will fix them, but they could. So I don't know there is something to keep an eye on. Well, thanks everybody who participates in our suburb. Read it. Sometimes, you talk about Microsoft stories sometimes you don't, but you can submit the ones that you care about and vote on others tech news show DOT REDDIT DOT com. pretell is in the mail bag. Tom I'm glad you asked Brian Rodin and said. On, our discussion yesterday was got Johnson about xbox and with Lamar Wilson and Shannon Moore's earlier in the week with both the xbox series consoles NPS. Five featuring dedicated compression hardware and SST's the installation size for next generation game should be smaller than on current consoles being able to compress and decompress assets on the fly obviously allows for a more smaller footprint, but the lack of seat times on St means that there's no need for redundant. Assets as it stands. Now, game developers will offer store assets in multiple places on a magnetic disk. So there quickly accessible in theory, the series ash should be able to benefit from smart delivery delivery in fourteen forty P assets for installation instead of four K. although it would require developers to a create those assets to begin. Long, story short you should be able to install more games on less space in the coming console generation still five twelve still. Tight but that definitely helps thank you Brian. Thank you Brian and also thanks to our patrons that our master and grandmaster levels including Paul Season Allison job and Scott Hepburn. Also, thanks to Justin Robert Young for being with us today Justin. No, you know your life is. Really quiet and nothing's going on. But you know perhaps you could let us know where they can find your work. We are within a fifty five days of election day, and that means we are deep into bat country friends and we will only get crazier as we get closer. So you want a voice you can trust. The politics, politics, politics podcast. It's here for you. Friends go pick it up wherever you find podcasts forty-one across the four letter word for Senate staffer. Aid. Aid With an e okay yeah. Hey folks. The best way to support daily Tech News show is to give us two bucks a month. That's all it takes, and then you get an ad free rss feed, you get my editor's desk you get a column from Roger Chang you get live with it from Sarah Lane and you are directly paying us. There's a little bit that goes to Patriot but honestly, it's worth every cent. For them to create that platform for us to manage all of this on. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you to our patrons, and if you're not one yet, now's the time. Go do it right now Patriots Dot Com Slash D. T. S. and our email addresses feedback daily tech news show dot com. We are also live Monday through Friday for Thirty PM Eastern Twenty thirty, UPC, find out more at daily tech news show dot com slash live about tomorrow with rob dunwoody and Len. 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The Duo: Too Much for Too Little? DTNS 3863
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So your architecture has the latest and greatest technologies congratulations except now you need a dozen monitoring services and a lot of them have hidden costs worst of all when something goes wrong, you waste precious time jumping between tools. It's not right and new relic. Heard you. We've reworked everything so you can use telemetry data from any source monitor your full stack from one place and use ai to fix issues faster. We've also massively simplified our pricing to no more hidden cost and no more wasted time and I know it sounds like a bunch of marketing jargon. So call us on it you can get one user, one, hundred gigabytes per month for free seriously, not a trial, not a demo just free. Check it out at new relic dot Com observability made simple. Coming up on. First Impressions of the Microsoft duo dual screen phone is it a phone Amazon makes printing by Voice Command actually work and the TIKTOK deal looks harder and harder all the time. This is the Daily News for Thursday September Tenth Twenty Twenty in Los, Angeles on Merit and from Studio Redwood I'm Sarah Lane from the orange skies of Oakland I'm Justin Robert Young. Man The producer Roger we were just talking about how your skies are no longer orange. Thank goodness. Congratulations on that all of. Oliver. Yellow. Now. And we were also talking about strange mysterious uber charges as as well as the Microsoft duo we might do a we're taking it out of the box live tomorrow on the show it a good day Internet that's where you get health. Patriot. Dot Com Slash S Let's start with a few things you should know. Those announced the noise cancelling quite comfort ear buds for two hundred, seventy dollars also the one hundred, seventy, nine dollars, sports, ear buds, successors to the noise cancelling headphones seven, hundred and five hundred. Both will be available on September twenty September twenty-ninth with pre orders now open both also introduced three new pairs of its frame line. Of Sunglasses with integrated speakers, the company says has improved audio over its. Predecessors Tenor Soprano and tempo are all the lions all for two hundred, forty nine dollars available now and prescription ready. Microsoft announced the version of its game pass service will double in price from four dollars ninety nine cents to nine dollars ninety nine cents a month starting September seventeenth. The service had been in Beta under the cheaper price game pass on the xbox already caused nine, ninety, nine, a month or fourteen, ninety, nine for game pass ultimate, which also includes console N.. Amdi announced an for October eighth to announce new CPA's using its zen three architecture a second event on October twenty eighth. We'll give details on the radio and RX six thousand series that's the one that uses its RDA to architecture. A same architecture is used in the US for a look that X. box series and five consoles. The announced that see yes twenty twenty one will be rescheduled from January sixth through the ninth to January eleventh through the Fourteenth Verizon CEO Hans Westberg will deliver the kickoff keynote for the online only CAS. Apple's new reported custom phase mass for employees have a three layer designed to filter particles are washable and can be reused up to five times between washes back in April apple sent out millions of facials do essential workers and hospitals. They snapback wash after wash why away announced at its annual developer conference in Doggone that it plans to launch its proprietary harmony Os on its smartphones and twenty twenty one while we said HMS core has been called, which is designed to replace Google play services includes ninety six, thousand aps up from eighty one, thousand July and sixty thousand in March but still short of the millions in the Google play store. Tighter US restrictions against alway go into effect on September fifteenth as result, Samsung, LG, and S K high next will reportedly stopped selling chips to walkway. That means that while we will have to source its Nand Flash, IT'S RAM and it's Ola displays elsewhere didn't stop a wall way though from announcing update to its but make book X and make book. Fifteen laptops for sale in October and updated watch gt to pro and free buds with improved noise cancellation. Facebook, formally submitted complaints about apple to the EU after the EU asked for consultation on its Digital Services Act. facebook complained about quote the application of apples, policies and technical controls around in payments Gaming APPs log in tools and online advertising. Adding that Apple's privileges privileges its own services and Revenue Stream to the detriment of other facebook during in the party. Great Motorola announced the second generation of its razor foldable phone similar to the original phone. It offers a six point two, inch twenty, one, point nine, two, nine aspect ratio foldable display inside the phone has a two point seven inch lead on the outside when it's folded up, it also adds sub six Gigahertz Five G. thanks to the snapdragon seven, sixty, five G. chip inside and will be available unlocked on at and T. and T. mobile for fourteen hundred dollars later this fall. The Portland Oregon City Council unanimously voted to approve to on facial recognition the I immediately bands the acquisition and use facial recognition used by city bureaus including the police. The second ban applies to private use of facial recognition in places of public accommodation starting January first twenty, twenty, one Portland says it's taking precautionary actions against these technologies are certified until these technologies are certified rather and safe to use and civil liberties issues are resolved. Let's talk a little more about something I assumed Justin. We'll have a great impact on society. Yes the ground trembled when twitter announced expanded efforts to fight election misinformation in the US set to go into effect September seventeenth twitter will remove or attach a warning label claims of victory prior to election results being official it specifically mentioned quote. Inciting unlawful conduct to prevent a peaceful transfer of power orderly succession and quote twitter we're also will also move or add labels do post with false or misleading information about this process like who can vote or what documents are needed to vote. Twitter will also act unquote unverified information about election rigging ballot tampering, vote tallying or certification of election results and quote also Google updated its auto complete policy. Say It will quote remove predictions that could be interpreted as a claim about participation in the election and quote as well as quote predictions that could be interpreted as claims or against any candidate or political party and quote suggested how much will these actions saved democracy? Absolutely nothing. Bad. Don't get US wrong. We're not saying that they shouldn't do these things and they're not bad. They're Klis and the fact that that they're doing them is because people on their on their platform are yelling about it. They're yelling for them to do something do something at Jack? Do something Google you are are causing this problem and I understand that internally there is probably a lot of pressure even with those who work there that believed that they. Have a control on how society thinks however from the perspective of somebody that watches the news come in and come out and twitter's role in it. The idea twitter makes more news than they do suppress news. They believe that they are a dumb pipe, but they are not if they were to remove somebody saying it looks very clear that Donald Trump or Joe Biden have won the election and they deem that to be something that is on. Beyond the bounds of declaring what is appropriate to declare victory that would become such a bigger story. Then somebody who just said it and somebody's saying, it might be the biggest story of the year. I mean yeah. If if someone writes someone associated with a campaign rights, it's all. But over folks X is your next president that violate this right? Even though the spirit of what I just said is is more of like cheerleading. because. People get introduced at their campaign rallies as the next president of the United States right? That's just a thing you do. So I don't know it's weird. It's a weird line to draw and I'm not against them doing it I guess I. Just don't know how much of an effect it really has. The Google auto complete might actually have a little more effective as it might stop people from landing on fake pages that tell them fake information maybe I don't know. that. That brings us into a whole `nother thing about Google. Hand. Picking and choosing where the auto completes go, which is its own little e controversy politically that that they believe that there are a nave had project Veritas for example, has had Google engineers showing how things will be removed even though they are easily far higher organically in terms of auto completes. So that's that's up to them. That's their own product that they are going to further Make sure they prune so they don't feel that. Information, is getting. Out there. But I in terms of the twitter stuff I, get it they have to do it. I'm sure they they're getting internal pressure I'm sure that they are getting pressure from there. I know they're getting pressure from their user base to quote unquote do something do I think that this actually does anything? No, no I don't. I'M GONNA make one of those peanut gallery quotes. But. Don't don't. They always claim victory before the official results are out anyway like isn't that a thing like the polls projections are so clear I'm going to concede like somebody usually concedes and then somebody claims. Like. It usually isn't an official. Election win. Even, a little different no, no no I mean. We are effectively ceding power to decision desks all the networks have decision, independent decision desks. Those are the people that effectively we are. We call the election on at a certain point on election night both Joe Biden and Donald Trump will have an agreement with their staff that at one one decision desk calls it then they will. Congratulate the other. What if somebody can seeds before the officials? Well We're getting into some we're getting into it's. Sticky. Sticky. Political. Well this might. Make some of you. Happy if you have Amazon devices because the company announced a voice controlled printing feature, the let's Amazon echo owners print items like to do lists or recipes from all recipes. Weekly calendars, educational content kids even games like Crossword Puzzles, Sodano Oku from the La Times, the future works with second get or near echoes an IP enabled printers from HP. Brother Canon Upson kind of the big is is very printer goes with more printers to be added over time you can check by telling your echo to discover my printer, and once it's set up, you can say print across puzzle or print graft paper or print a chicken recipe. Also, the episode Echo will remind you if you're running low on ink or toner. which is the worst, but it will remind you anyway and you can even order replacements for you, and that's why do they want to sell you the toner and the right? which is very expensive. Just bought some and and and it would be nice to be able to say like, Hey, you're on toner. Do you want me to order new and have me not have to worry about looking up like is this the rice model because it knows because of the connection I get that's all great. I was super skeptical about printer networking because in my life printer networking has never gone right? It's always a pain getting stuff to print. Wifi always goes wrong. And so I thought. Well I'M GONNA try this out. Well, let's just see and I said. My Printer, fifteen seconds later it said I have discovered your brother printer and like okay. But did it really and I said print a crossword puzzle. It said I'm adding the L. A., times skill to print a crossword puzzle is that all right and I said yes would you like me to print a crossword puzzle I said yes and like A minute later, I had a crossword puzzle printed out. Worked with like no intervention I didn't have to go into settings I talked to the thing. To say I was kind of impressed by that. Yeah Pretty. Cool you know. I'm not a printer fan I i. wish us all to have a pay per free life one day, but we're not there yet and I do have a printer of my own that I have to use occasionally and this is really cool. You know the the idea of like I. Don't know telling you know. Yelling into the wind to turn my lights on and now works was very fascinating to me at one point. Now, it's just part of life being able to tell my printer to do various things based on skills is is the same kind of cool. Yeah. I. Don't know about chicken recipes I. Feel that one's a little more of a shot in the dark but yeah. I'm like aren't I supposed to look at that on the Echo? Now recipe or you're printing. Eight Wall Street. Journal sources say. Discussing arrangements with the US government that would let it avoid a full sale of its US operations. One option. Being discussed would be taking on a technology partner to secure the data so that I think the idea there would be, let's say Microsoft says, we'll handle the data will keep it secure and in the US and it'll be under our control and then we'll provide you access with it but you still run Tiktok in the Algorithm, representative from US investors invite dance reportedly met with the CIA. Last week to discuss data security on Tiktok an executive order banning tiktok originally did set a deadline of September twentieth but don't forget there was a subsequent executive order that made the deadline for transaction November twelfth so they still got a little time. And don't forget last week China put technology like tic talks recommendation Algorithm on a list of tech that would require government approval to be exported essentially scuttling the deal because if you can't get China to sign off on selling that algorithm, what good is buying Tiktok. We also have some other tiktok stuff going on Tiktok gave reporters of virtual tour of its transparency center in La to show how its recommendation Algorithm works. There's also a report from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute accusing Tiktok of limiting discovery of videos with LGBTQ hashtags in the countries of Bosnia Jordan and Russia Tiktok I said, those terms are restricted to comply with local laws. They also added sometimes, they were restricted because they were only used to get to porn, and it was a way to crack down on porn but then it also admitted that some phrases were moderated by mistake and it's fixed the error in it regrets it. That part is more like mouth. tiktok moderation is never been terribly clean and right as they're launching their transparency center. They had a bad example of it but I, think that first story is is the bigger one of these which is. It doesn't sound like a deal can be reached and TIKTOK scrambling around to try to get the US government to come to a compromise and say what if we don't sell all of it because it doesn't look like we can. We'd rather not be shut down altogether. What do you got? Well. We do not know what is going on here. I do believe this is probably the most fascinating transaction story that has happened in tech over the last twenty five years. The fact that we do have a product that is as explosive as tiktok is that is for sale. That's very dog bites man that it's being forced to sell, and it might sell at less than what market value would be because of pressures that are far beyond what normally goes on for something like this is indeed, very, very, very unique. But what I see here is the fact that Bite Dan and The whatever interests are here that are US based that probably do want to just move on with whatever version of their future is they are trying to buy either time or leverage of. Just. EITHER RE underline from their perspective to the government? Hey, this is an easy. You can look you can smash the hammer on us and yes, we might shatter into a bunch of pieces but you're you're going to ruin something that a lot of people like that's not what you want but you do want is is this being on more US soil? Control by US forces. What we can offer you is that ultimately though when this is more from a political perspective. There's not a lot of give on China right now an either trump or biden I don't believe would want to be the guys that say. Maybe China's okay here even if it's just the TIKTOK twins. I think that this is something that is more of a death rattle before we get a deal. Now what that deal looks like an exactly what role the Chinese government plays in it that remains to be sick. Yeah. This this this tells me that they can't get a deal where they sell their operations in Australia or Canada New Zealand in the US because they can't get the algorithm. They know that China not approve the algorithm China made a death move there. So now they're looking like what other kinds of deals could we have where we hold onto the algorithm because China won't let it out. But we do something that is acceptable to you and the only thing that would work. In theory would be saying, let's let Oracle or Microsoft or somebody control the data because that's what you're concerned about is the data at can we meet with the CIA and get reassurance from them? Like here's what we'd have to do for you to feel comfortable with that data for you to claim victory of like essentially the majority of the operation that was a concern is now under control. Can we do that? That's a big question like that. All makes sense to me and I think it sounds reasonable given the conditions that have been set but whether the US government says, no, we really don't care. If you go away, we really don't care if you go under that's a harder one I. There's there's a reason why these sources are bike Dan sources. Because I don't think that this is the US government that this is something that they want to go for it. Yeah. You don't think the US government wants to go for this at all oh no. Bite dance talking, and the only way is for those sequoia and Atlantic investors to convince like there's GonNa. Be Some damage caused by this That that, you're not taking into account that sounds like a hard sell for me. FACEBOOK wants a new way for college students to connect. Hey, that sounds familiar. The section is called campus and like the facebook of old, it only lets you interact with people at your school and includes a campus only. Groups, events, and campus chats. Campus Directory lets you find and friend other students you'll need dot Edu. Address. And your graduation year to join, and then you'll create a campus specific profile with options for things like majors, classes, dorms, and CETERA. Campus campus is being tested with thirty universities in the United States and no Harvard the original home of the facebook is not one of them. Had Don't know there were a lot of like Haha look at facebook getting back to its roots stories about this when when the company first launch this initiative and that's not really what this is I mean facebook isn't changing at all this becomes something that's like if you want to. Access, one of the somewhat buried you know. Options that facebook gives people and this being one of them you can I suppose if you were. I don't know have an EDU address. It's like. If, you really wanted to be I don't know like, I like talk about your teacher or is it like there are certain things that I guess this would be a good use for, but it you could already just. Be Friends with people that you want to be friends with on facebook. I just don't quite know what the company is going for here as as somebody who logged onto facebook initially under the JR Yaun Zero two at s why are dot edu email? You really need indeed one of the first schools that To get it when it was first rolling out this is dumb and yet another way that facebook can overcomplicate their interface that makes it less usable. So, they you have it. From hacker news we found a posting from September seventh by Neil from the APP maker Solitaire about why the company dropped email registration for its APPs. The short version is that email reminders didn't appreciably appreciably improve retention but the neal notice that his sister didn't want to register an account because she didn't want to give her email. So since email registration was an additional cost, the company experimented with dropping email registration and then only asking a user for their name and their password to register registration rose at thirty six percent after the change and retention improved four point five percent. So more users are trying other games from the company as well. Yeah. Just a username that's all. We don't need your email address. Just to use her name and suddenly a bunch more people registered a thirty six percent more people registered I think this is a great example of a company noticing that man, there's a lot of people who do the don't like the thing that we want them to do because it's beneficial to us I wonder if we stopped knowing them what unexpected benefits we might get. And they got unexpected BEV benefits. They got not only increased engagement with registration because people like, Oh, I, don't even have to give an email address. No problem love to have have an account. Great. Yeah. But it kept people and they started trying other Games from the company. So this might not work for every company out there but I think it's a great lesson that sometimes. Even, though you want behavior like I don't know getting a bunch of students to sign up for a special new service because students don't use your service anymore doesn't mean that the users want that behavior and so you have to give this the users, what they want, and they will engage with your platform more. and. This is and error and I don't think that there's one a one way to eat. And certainly, facebook is a very complicated service that I think has kinda gained in esteem as we have realized the problems with some of our walled garden that we created to replace the clutter of it But the idea that I could actually do a thing online and not immediately get spammed with text and emails Oh boy would that be thrilling. I think this does bring up the idea of. I'm sure somebody out there is saying. But what about newsletters newsletters hot. You GotTa have a newsletter and that's email. That's that's content people want. Yeah. Newsletters are people sign up for newsletters because they want you to email them that and they unsubscribe trust me as as people who run newsletters. UNSUBSCRIBE soon as you mildly annoyed them or they don't find it useful anymore. Folks if you want to get all the tech headlines each day in about five minutes, be sure to subscribe daily. TECH HEADLINES DOT COM. When might you be buzzed when you suddenly love everything? I love this song. I love these NACHO. I love our kickball League Oh. I love this guy what's your name? You know what? I love a ride when it's time to head out. If you see above warning sign colfer ride when it's time to go home buzzed driving is drunk driving a message from Nitsa and the Ad Council I love your car is this real leather. The reviews are out for the Microsoft duo android dual screen phone don't call the phone, but it's also not a tablet I don't know a thing. Here's what we're seeing in aggregate. I think the top line is best by atom. Ismael over at Tom's guide. The Microsoft do he says is exciting and maddening all at once that seems to summarize what reviewers are saying on the pro side, all of them like that it can do to upset once in a way, no other device can't side-by-side on two different screens like having multiple monitors. But in a smaller device, they liked that you can use android phone apps. This is not a tablet. So you're not dealing with a lack of tablet optimized APPs because it's a phone size screen, it's got great battery life everyone raves how pretty this thing is it's a beautiful design while manufactured. Thin and light opinions vary on how much productivity benefited has but pretty much everybody seems to think it made them at least feel more productive. If not actually be more productive, it does have a learning curve to get there though the software that was designed for it mostly for Microsoft does seem to work. Well, the hinge got praise from multiple reviewers for being sturdy and allowing for those good orientations like ten view for for watching video or holding in your hands like a book sports, Microsoft Pen and lots of people praise the screen Nice. Sharp screens dual five point, six inch lead. But here, the cons everybody agrees too expensive for what you get. Thousand Three hundred ninety nine dollars for a phone that doesn't have NFC Wifi six wireless charging expandable storage five G. or stereo speakers is too much everybody pan the camera actually there one or two people didn't think the camera was that bad. But most people pan the camera it's eleven megapixel Webcam on a smartphone camera. In fact I think it was the verge who said you just call it a Webcam and it would have been fine. Buggy laggy software was a complaint not enough APPs that support the dual screens was a complaint. You can't use it with one hand because it's so wide even when it's folded up and that learning curve man, it involves Microsoft gestures on top of android gestures, none of which seemed intuitive to the reviewers Mary Jo Foley said, it could replace an e reader in her opinion it was great for that was mixed on. Brad Sam's at Petrie said quote for those who have been waiting for years for a surface PDA your day has finally arrived but for those looking for a general purpose smartphone, this likely isn't your hardware. Going through the pros. Y- as you were. Going through them Tom, it's like this sounds pretty great. Sounds pretty great right but it's very expensive. So what's wrong with it? Well, you have the same it's the same people saying we'll I can't use it in one hand I mean it's a dual screen device that that's kind of silly but it's it's like we we continue to be searching for the next Gen of smart devices and we. Don't really know what that's going to be yet, and we're getting all these like is it foldable as a dual screen? Is that this or that but this would like horrible camera. I'm sorry I would never buy something like this for that price with with a camera that is so lacklustre. I don't understand what this is and to be like, oh, it's like a next Gen e-readers they somewhat laughable. It if you can't interact with it, it doesn't matter and whatever all these pro czar if if the if the software's buggy or laggy if the gestures or something that that, prevent you from wanting to interact with it with with all these things that are really positive. The idea that it does look pretty the idea that it does have greater surface area and you can run multiple things none of that matters if it's buried under. The ice of software that frustrates you and gestures that you can't educate us at on top of that if it's expensive and now you're going to have a higher bird entry. Then I think we have a, we have an even higher a threshold Brit to pass that it doesn't sound like it. Did I mean I will say that Mary Jo Foley quote is withering like it could replace an e. reader is among the most. backhanded compliments in. Tech. Reviews. She's not a review. She makes that clear just just opinion on it but yeah. I you know this may be an answer in search of a question which case it's doomed. But a lot of these reviewers felt like there was something to it. They're like there's something here. We don't know quite what it is, but we liked it and all of the cons if you look at them are fixable in a second Gen. You can get on the price. You can add hardware features or you can improve the software like none of these things are killers out of the gate not and they will fix them, but they could. So I don't know there is something to keep an eye on. Well. Thanks everybody who participates in our suburb. Read it. Sometimes, you talk about Microsoft stories sometimes you don't, but you can submit the ones that you care about and vote on others tech news show DOT REDDIT DOT com. pretell is in the mail bag. Tom I'm glad you asked Brian Rodin and said. On, our discussion yesterday was got Johnson about xbox and with Lamar Wilson and Shannon. Moore's earlier in the week with both the xbox series consoles ps five featuring dedicated compression hardware and sst's the installation size for next generation game should be smaller than on current consoles being able to compress decompress assets on the fly obviously allows for a more smaller footprint but the lack of seat times on St means that there's no need for redundant. Assets as it stands. Now, game developers will offer store assets in multiple places on a magnetic disk. So there quickly accessible in theory, the series ash should be able to benefit from smart delivery delivery in fourteen forty P assets for installation instead of four, K. although it would require developers to a create those assets to begin. Long. Story short you should be able to install more games on less space in the coming console generation still five twelve still. Tight but that definitely helps. Thank you, Brian. Thank you Brian and also thanks to our patrons that our master and grandmaster levels including Paul Theisen Allison job and Scott. Hepburn. Also, thanks to Justin Robert Young for being with us today. Justin. No, you know your life is. Really quiet and nothing's going on. But you know perhaps you could let us know where they can find your work. We are within a fifty five days of election day, and that means we are deep into bat country friends and we will only get crazier as we get closer. So you want a voice you can trust. The politics politics politics podcast. It's here for you. Friends. Go pick it up wherever you find podcasts forty-one across the four letter word for Senate staffer. Aid Aid with an E. Okay Yeah Hey folks. The best way to support daily Tech News show is to give us two bucks a month that's all it takes, and then you get an ad free rss feed you get my editor's desk you get a column from Roger Chang you get live with it from Sarah Lane and you are directly paying us there's a little bit that goes to Patriot but honestly, it's worth every cent. For them to create that platform for us to manage all of this on. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you to our patrons, and if you're not one yet, now's the time. Go do it right now Patriots Dot Com Slash D. T. 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