20 Episode results for "Associate Dean"

Solving Health Challenges Through Research and Collaboration

Healthcare Triage Podcast

26:11 min | 9 months ago

Solving Health Challenges Through Research and Collaboration

"Welcome back to the healthcare triage podcast. Once again, we're going to be talking about the Clinical Translational Science Institute, but we've got some new directors and it's worth checking in with them to see exactly what's going on Indiana University. One of our guests is Sharon Mo. she's the division director of Nephrology at Indiana, university school of Medicine. She's also associate dean of clinical and translational sciences, as well as the steward AAC lead professor of medicine or other guest who's been here before is Sarah. We he she is associate dean of community and Translational Sciences. She is the division director per children's health services research, as well as an associate professor of Pediatrics Sharon Sarah Welcome. This healthcare has podcast is sponsored by Indiana University School of Medicine whose mission is to advance health from the state of Indiana and beyond by promoting innovation and excellence in education research and patient care I. School of Medicine is leading Indiana University's first grand challenge the precision health initiative with bold goals to cure multiple Myeloma, triple negative breast cancer, and Childhood Sarcoma and prevent type two diabetes and Alzheimer's Disease Let's start with. Sharon who has not been here before we usually like to struck these podcasts by talking to our guests about specifically what they do and how did they get their sort of talking to the public about how does one become professor of medicine or a division director of nephrology or interested in the research that you do. So I started in research when I was in a froggy fellow at the University of Chicago. I was motivated to be honest by a patient on dialysis who kept having bleeding into their shoulder joint that I had to actually remove the blood for her to be able to use her arm on a weekly basis, and this was due to a rare disease that patients on dialysis get that deposits in the bone called amyloidosis. So that made me start doing research on bone learning about bone I worked in someone's. Lab and then when I came to. INDIANA. University in thousand hundred two I came really because of the strength of the Bone Research Group at Indiana University? Not Necessarily in the nephrology division from there I have held a lot of different administrative positions. I am kind of an organizer and get things done type person. So it comes pretty naturally to be able to put all that together. I could say I've been truly doing. Translational, research since my fellowship, as I hadn't during my fellowship, a clinical research paper and a basic science lab paper published in one year. So sometimes I feel like the word translational isn't really new and novel, but I'm happy that people are finally understanding that when you do something in the lab, you ought to be thinking about who the patient is. That would benefit from this at least some point in their life. So can I get you talk a little bit more about that like what do you? What do you think translational research is because I'd agree with you it it does seem like one of those things that people are treating soften is it's a new thing but it is it. So how what does it mean to you? So it should mean that there ought to be a potential and the back of your head. As to where this was going to go at some point in the future I truly believe there is an important area for research just to do research to understand, for example, and identify new and novel gene, and what does that gene do on the other hand translational means that you actually go from a patient and you work backwards to try to figure out what makes that patient tick? What makes them have this? Disease, what makes them prone to this disease? Both of those kind of approaches from science perspective are absolutely needed. But the whole emphasis of the he sl is really to actually take discoveries into humans and overtake humans back to bench discovery so that we improve their health to see this as something that doesn't do that. There needs to be a focus or we just sort of doing more no I think the difference between. That and very focused research is that in order to really cover that spectrum, you have to have collaboration you have to actually have other people who can work on different pieces of that Longitudinal plan again from patient back to bencher bench to patient, and so it is hard for someone to do all of those facets and so you have to have this ability or desire to get there and you need to collaborate. And that's really what the chess is all about. It creates an infrastructure that people can go to so that they can understand how to take that part that they're doing in that trajectory and make it happen. Can you give me some hard examples of some of the work for structure talking about? Yeah, I mean this is I. It is absolutely fabulous and I give talks and visit places all around the country and. We are truly one of the best and most advanced CPS I in my book from start to finish, you have an idea you think might actually be a drug down the road. We are working to try to figure out how we can actually benefit people who are not sure if it's going to be good. So connecting them with the right people to understand drug discovery, we then want to know if you're doing. An animal work is that gene that you're studying that protein actually present in humans because there's a lot of discrepancy in animal models of human disease, and so we have a giant bio bank samples that people can gain access to to actually measure the DNA and try to understand the Hamas between an animal and human, and then if you do have something and you have an idea and you want to implement a Clinical Research Study, do you need to know how many patients you have? So we have a connection where the Reagan streep data set to help to feasibilities. Do these people that you think exist really exist? Is there something unique about them that you need to know who the people are that you want to study, and then we have a pool of trained research coordinators and infrastructure setup to actually conduct clinical research and? Then from there, we have an ability to help people learn how to communicate how to publish how to write a grant. Harman's all these other things through our professional education opportunities the whole beauty and the fun of research is that it's never a dull moment. So every day you think you're going to be studying this and something send you to a tangent and you go wait a minute maybe I should be doing that. And that's how you end up needing collaborators and resources and methods and infrastructure to learn how to do it. Otherwise, you lose those tangents and discoveries are errors initially and someone takes a different look at it from a different viewpoint and they turn it into something really positive. So the CY is an effort that involves just more than Indiana University School of Medicine Right? Absolutely. So it's really Notre Dame purdue IU Bloomington. And many other hospital systems as well as the medical student campuses. So it it really integrates everything and it's very fun to actually learn what people are doing at different institutions and to actually get people excited and have a pathway forward to maybe something that isn't at their institution. Bring it back to what the research is that they're doing. So Sarah I'm not gonNA ask for full introduction. I think you may be the. Frequent. Guests on our podcast dates. So if the audience is familiar with anyone, it would be you but I would love to hear a little bit about how you became involved in community and translational research as well as what you see is the distinction between say clinical and translational sciences and community in Translational Sciences my research has always focused on vulnerable populations and health equity related issues and started with geospatial concentrations of poor health outcomes among adolescence and I was doing a project that was enrolling team girls on the West Side of Indianapolis and tracking them, and when we recruited from the clinic for the study just to give you an idea, we were using blackberry pearls. So that dates long ago this was. One hundred percent of the girls we had approached agreed to participate so much so that the I R. B thought perhaps the protocol was coercive because we were offering free cell phone service while we attract their locations and they were wondering if even after our main criticism with this grant to the NIH, which was like this grant isn't possible no never is going to let you track them Things have changed since I started asking those questions in any case my point is, is that when we brought it into the community because we didn't want a clinical sample because it can be quite biased for an adolescent population, those who are seeking healthcare, we were not meeting our enrollment targets and so what I learned after a lot of errors that engagement with the community in this case our target population of teen girls on the West Side we realized they weren't seeing sort of the Ir be approved flyers. replastering everywhere. That, there were all kinds of things that we needed to reconsider and it had nothing to do with the protocol itself. So the science was valid. There wasn't anything that was sort of keeping them necessarily from participating in terms of the incentives or what we're asking them to do. It was that we were not effectively engaging with them and as part of that as well as some I think innovative at least at the time collaboration with a faculty member from Herron. School of. Art and design in Santa Matsu we sort of employed this human center design research approaches sort of our how community engagement in any case because of that sort of experience for me personally as a researcher I learned the value of engagement and really beyond just meeting recruitment targets to getting to something much more meaningful from the participant's perspective, and it's just grown from there. So it has taken a lot of different trajectories for me and my own research relating to data, sharing partnerships to what's. Now Research Sham the patient engagement core to various community engagement in between but I guess where my role now as associate Dean as well as CO director of the CSI, plays in Israeli extending that translational spectrum in with the community and back rights as a bidirectional relationship, and so it's extending those collaborations to stakeholders in the community. My definition of team science and sort of that collaborative space is not restricted to individuals within the academy and really absolutely needs to include community folks at all. Levels of the translational spectrum. So this is not just from like clinical to community in my book it's you know community engagement even within the basic science from. So I mean it sounds like you know you've certainly had some direct experience with research and getting the community involved But I'm assuming also that their significant infrastructure and the CTO which helps other researchers to do that, and I'd love to hear more about that. Yeah. I would argue that community engaged research really takes the most. Severe. Heart and a lot of ways because community engagement needs to be sustained and Bidirectional, and his is based on trust as all relationships truly and a lot of research based on a grant that my last two, three, five years and community engagement used to extend well beyond that, and oftentimes we don't have the ramp up time to get to where we need with commuting aged works starting from scratch every time and it makes no sense to do that. Right. So a lot of the infrastructure is sort of listening building trust trying to build on prior work both in the academy and. The community. So what this translates into is a network of individuals who have worked together over time. It's communities where we've had a sustained engagement through sort of coalition work or other activities. It's setting up ways in which we can rapidly respond to community needs whether it be with data infrastructure or expertise among a variety of other things. So those are a few of the ways that we can support other commute engaged researchers, but also the community stakeholders who are part of our teams and how does it work the other way? Can you give me some examples of of the community sort of? Putting information into what we might do research or we might do as. We think about the community as like a lot of different stakeholders, one of which can be our partners at the state. So the Indiana Department of Health, as well as Indiana family and social services administration have been long standing partners for us with the Department of Health. They've sat on advisory Boards for example, and through that connection, we have received their guidance in terms of how we should target our pilot grant program. It's called the trailblazer award, which is targeting sort of community university partnerships, and we have tried to align the focus of that pilot grant with the state's priorities so much so that the state now ads in an additional hundred, thousand dollars a year to the size contribution of. One hundred thousand dollars a year to expand the reach that program which is really exciting. So they're truly are partners with us in that initiative. A more recent example is with Wise Indiana being informed through science and evidence in Indiana's a partnership with Indiana Fsa that was in the works I would say, well, before covert by covert, put it into overdrive with the state's request for evidence in response to practice and policy relating to covid guidance that the state was giving and so Aaron you among several others participated as our expert panel responding daily Oftentimes, two questions that the state would pose as it related to a variety things. Initially, it was more healthcare focused, but it's reached into that. Realm ethics, it really is run the gamut and we have a tremendous amount of resources to serve the community including the state, and yet it's very difficult sometimes to know where to go. So we've envisioned wise Indiana's essentially the front door to expertise for the state and ultimately for other community stakeholders as well in the hope of Wise Indiana is truly that this is bidirectional. Also in the future, we hope that questions that are posed. You know through the academic community can be in partnership with the state answered with their participation, and of course, all of these things are collaborative nature just to give another quick example on the other end. Of the spectrum from a more grassroots standpoint David Craig who is that department chair of religious studies that IEP y lead some of our faith based work here in Marion. County and doing some really exciting work in terms of pulling together fifth leaders in Indiana to really understand their concerns around health and building a health coalition of sorts among the faith community here in Indianapolis area is still in say the early and formative stages but the idea is to create some additional strength across faith leaders to be able to sort of put forward these needs and questions where the hell system and the academy can sort of step in and. Assist but it's based on their agenda not ours. That's great. Show of jump back to you for a second what what are the things that that the city is working on right now that you're most excited about a couple things number one is this innovation pathway that we are working on where right now, if you think you might have something that would be future drug or device you Kinda have to go around and ask different people and you might get conflicting opinions. We're bringing together a group of individuals for more drugs and another group for devices that right now, at least I'm calling him think tanks and the idea behind this. Is that similar to our project development teams or PD tease instead of making an investigator go ten people we bring the ten people to them. So this would be a one stop shop for an investigator to go and actually get advice from people that range from our community partners, Lily Employees Cook Employees, people that are volunteering their time in the biosciences here in Indianapolis, as well as seasoned investigators to give individuals advice. Yeah. You might have a good idea, but is there a market for it? Is there really a can the drug really be made do can is medicinal chemistry even possible for this particular target is your animal model really. Him August humans What does it mean? Is it clinical trial down the road even going to be feasible? Those are the kinds of considerations that happen within a company that is only focused on getting a drug to market and making money whereas in academia, we are often focused on diseases occur. So these think tanks allow a forum for investigators to really get the feedback that they need to make the decision about how they're going to move forward in their own career and how they're going to move this idea forward, the device one is actually going to be run out of purdue and it's they already have a great infrastructure to. Actually give people advice on various devices in the advantage of both of these is that it's important that the investigators understand that they are a series of steps that need to be done before you can get to the next part. So helping people to map out with those steps are figuring out how to fund those individuals. Steps are really important. The ultimate goal would be obviously licensing something out to our many colleagues in industry in the city and the state, and or that the individual gets a S. B. I or an S. T. T. are these grants and h puts out to help fund new ideas and get them off to. Patient care it's amazing. What kind of ideas happen and being able to take those ideas and I get feedback in one setting I. Think we'll be terribly advantageous. It's been something I think that we haven't paid enough Tennessee to down the road and I think this is what we really have to do. If we're GONNA, make a true change in patient care I mean that seems like utterly translational. It's the you know how do we take it from research all the way to where it'll actually be out there and do something absolutely and as I was saying before it's unrealistic to think that every investigator understands what they showed in their. Rat Model and how you would actually make the drug in a chemistry lab how you might mass produce it to a level of wooded actually work in a clinical study and what would that study looked like I? Mean there are some clinical research studies that are just simply not feasible. Maybe in ten years they might be, but they may not be now an understanding that before you waste a lot of time or you tweak the drug to be something else is important it's going to expedite how we actually accomplish goals. So Sarah, I'd like to ask you the same question because clearly you guys are just going to have slightly different. Views and tortured where where your aims are what you're doing, what what are the things that are going on right now that you're most excited about. One is. I don't know if we have like an official name for sort of things sort of diversity and inclusion concerns and structural racism that is within our system. So Bronson, Tucker Edmonds and Silk Soto or is helping to lead task force for the CSI. I mean there are a lot of activities that are going in this area across the aren't `institutions of the TSI including are you purdue and Notre Dame and? So the first initiative is going to be to try and better understand what's being addressed or being done in the areas of workforce about men and research infrastructure that may be combating some of the barriers faced by individuals of color, and then we hope from that there will be sort of gaps or places where we can identify where the CSI can plug in and really move things forward in a tangible. Way So. This is work that's just getting started but I suspect will be key theme in sort of a cross cps I activities moving forward and I'm really excited about that. The other thing that I'll highlight is because we haven't talked much about sort of informatics program the really exciting work relating to social determinants of health and moving upstream particularly in this time of covid think this is there's been additional. Light shed on sort of the importance of social determines of houses is like food insecurity, Housing and security. You know do to unemployment or other stressors both financial, and otherwise that have actually a majority of the contribution to our health outcomes. Right. So we know that healthcare itself is just a small proportion of what's affecting our our health and probably even smaller our genetic code it's more where we live in sort. Of the experiences that we have, and so there's been a lot of attention on this across health system and in the community, and we as part of the CSI are working to convene and move this forward in hopes of allowing for a referral to social services in the same way that we would refer to your nose and throat specialist or a cardiologist, and this is no trivial matter because a lot. Of these entities are not covered entities. So to speak that, you normally have data exchange through partners like the Indiana health information exchange there are some big hurdles to get over, but we really have the experts in the country in the world really here in our backyard to address this issue, we'll be convening probably in early twenty, twenty one I'm really excited about that. So stay tuned for more information if you're. Interested. Yeah we we'll definitely want to hear more about that especially because again. So how I'm just curious if you've gotten thought this head like how will you find people to make the referrals? Do you see that happening in office visits or is it more global? It's more global. So this is also in partnership with the State so they're rolling out one aspect of this and they have taken over you. Know Management of the two on one system, which is really an exciting opportunity to pull together. What I'm thinking about is like this three layered cake ideas the todd whole is really registry information as it relates to sort of social services like when the when is this food pantry open who qualifies for food there, and we're the closest resources like zip code or what have you The next is sort of. Referral Component, and for that, it's really no wrong door that could be within a clinical system during a visit but it also could be if you went into gleaners and you were screened and found to be living in an unsafe household stuff because gleaners is that's probably our number one social service agency to address food insecurity they provide food for needy families. They really do tremendous work across the state and they say, you know have a laser. Focus on food and security but recognize that individuals experiencing hunger and food insecurity are also likely also facing housing insecurity maybe more likely to be in a domestic violence situation and so on, and they can't be all things to all people but it doesn't feel good if they're like just sort of plugging one whole about that has multiple holes. So ideas if they could refer on to the Julian Center in which is a domestic violence shelter or this housing. Resource that be the no wrong door component, and the most exciting piece to me is like then getting to community health workers or our faith leaders that I was talking about earlier. Right they could also be a front door. So it's wherever you have that trusted relationship with a person in need if you're able to tap this resource, then that's great and then just to finish up the bottom layer is really the population health component. So if you. Can pull all this information together and look at populations health needs. Then you can make sure that Mrs Ring offered match, the needs that are being reported or experienced within these data you yawned individuals need to communities need, and that's really exciting from appalling practice guidance and research standpoint will there is no question when you have when you've had that meeting twenty, twenty one and you've got more to talk about, we would love to absolutely talk about that again. Finishing up This is the first time we've had code directors as far as I know of the guy now that you know naphtha who has a past guest is left and I'm just sort of curious how you envision that working. Are you sort of dividing up? Do you have specific roles or everyone on everything like how how do you envision working together and making the CSI work we're giving up mostly I think this first few months we've both been kind of learning what each other's expertise is and we really are complimentary. So there are meetings when. Like I might talk about precision health from a Edina perspective and Sarah's talking about it from a community perspective you know people precision versus DNA precision versus population health Since we have all the gambits covered kind of with our expertise from basic to community health I. Think it's a natural leadership role. Together I'm having a good time learning all the stuff. That she did I had no idea. She was doing such wonderful things with community engagement prior to taking on this role like why Sharon and it's it's you know we're only a couple of months into this together and you know Dr Anthony Shaker as we all know as superhuman and we miss him dearly every day I think that it certainly takes several people. To be able to continue what he has built it's an incredibly strong foundation and one that we're benefiting from tremendously. But I agree with Sharon completely that I think are different perspectives sloth as researchers and people were were certainly complementary and hearing those different perspectives even in a single meeting helps I think to extend the translation even more I gotTa tell you from. My perspective and granted I know you both very well, but it's It's even in the two types of examples that you gave whether it's talking about how do we get trials to work better and how do we get to decide if things could be devices or drugs and also to be able to focus on the massive social determinants of health and all the? They're both. So excited like I think there's an opportunity here to get more focus on different areas where perhaps maybe there wasn't before and have an elevated to the highest levels of leadership. So it's exciting I really hope you'll both come back in the future and talked to us about how things are developing in sort of your different domains or how. Things are going, but all of the work is massively important and I'm thrilled you're you're on today. Thank you so much. Erin. Appreciate it. Yeah. Kind of fun. Thanks for them. Attention. This healthcare podcast sponsored by Indiana University School of Medicine whose mission is to advance health in the state of Indiana, and beyond by promoting innovation and excellence in education research and patient care.

Indiana Sharon Sarah Indiana University researcher Clinical Translational Science investigator associate dean Sharon CSI Indianapolis Indiana University Disease University of Chicago amyloidosis purdue professor of medicine Bone Research Group Translational Sciences
Your Summer Travel Questions, Answered

Radio Boston

19:16 min | 1 year ago

Your Summer Travel Questions, Answered

"We are now officially two days astronomical summer and I think it's fair to say this year is astronomically different than any any of us can remember, and if you're like me ready for a break, but as Massachusetts continues to reopen, and we're approaching the July fourth weekend. You might be wondering. How do you travel safely during a pandemic joining us now offer some guidance on. That is Dr Lynn Chen She's the director of the travel. Medicine Center at Mount Auburn Hospital President of the International Society of Travel Medicine and an associate professor of medicine at Harvard Medical School Dr, Chen, welcome back to radio, BOSTON Thank you for having me. And also joining us. Elizabeth Scott Associate Dean and professor of biology at Simmons, university she's also the CO director and founder of the Simons Center for Hygiene and health in home and community professor Scott Welcome back to Radio Allston. Thank you so much good to be here, Chris. So I've got lots of questions for these two, but I'd love to hear your questions as well if you have specific questions about your summer travel or just generally, how do you navigate the summer season? Safely? Join the conversation, one, eight, hundred, four, two, three, eight, two, five, five. That's one eight hundred four to three talk. Doctor I'll start with you because we had you on. March eleventh on Radio Boston which feels like about thirty years ago at this point. I'm curious. What in the in the that have? Played Out between that, and now what have we learned about the corona virus and how it spreads? And how are you thinking about our current situations? Thank you Chris so first of all. Let me say that we there are still so much. Learn about this virus back in March. We were thinking about how to respond to it. How To? Go into shelter in in home. How To? Learn more about the virus and we were watching. The ELBRICK's playing out in Asia and then in Europe. And as far as travel goes trum January until until March. Most travelers were asking. Should I go with? Should I stay? Home should I. can't so should I postponed? And, we're kind of in a similar situation now as businesses are reopening. and. People are were going into reopening of society to and and soaked for as far as travel goes. I think a lot of people that that I've talked with our thinking about more local travel, rather than the long distance travel that people had been considering back in January February early March, and but again we. They're still so much. We need to learn about this virus. We know a bit about How the clinical symptoms the? How frequently it occurs some of the basic things we can do to prevent getting getting exposed or getting infected, but there is still a lot we need to learn. Yeah I think there's some interesting stuff there. Folks looking at traveling in a more local way. Do you think that's just based on the mode of transportation that that that you need to use? Or what do you think it is about stayed? Close that that is comforting, some folks. I think that transportation my have something to do about the plans but I think also because there's still a lot of unknowns about what distant locations May certain requirements that this the locations were destinations, countries might have so staying closer to home is an easier way to manage and going back to the transportation If wine can drive if you can drive yourself to a, let's say A. National Park! A few hours away or a beach? An hour away. That's also a bit easier to plan. And, also to the understanding about the logo, the more local epidemiology the weather chases are increasing what businesses are doing? I think the there are so many thanks contributing to that decision to stay closer to home. Gender, there's an interesting question that driving to a park. A few hours away raises for me and at least one of the callers again. It's one eight, hundred, four, two, three, eight, two, five five. If you want to join the conversation. Let's go to Jonathan in chilmark Jonathan. Thanks for calling in what's on your mind? I wanted to ask the doctors. How best to manage restroom stops on the highway. I'm always nervous. going into way a restroom area and practicing high best hygiene for for for for folks. Jonathan. I think it's a great question and I think it's one. A lot of people are thinking about so let me throw this to both of you, guys. What should folks be thinking about using public restrooms? I start on this one. I thinking about this one to? Firstly. It's very important to I. Think minimize your time in the restroom, so be efficient and get out of there pretty quickly. I would recommend sanitizing your hands on the way in as well as on the way out that way. You don't actually add any contamination yourself to the environment. Where mosque. Do a Sarah, twenty second hand wash and use a paper towel preferably to dry hands. And then use a paper towel to actually exit. The Facility And sanitize your hands on the way out. I I'd also say that washrooms restrooms are not the place to be using cellphones and hanging out anymore. So you know I think being efficient getting out of there the thing to do. Go then get going got that. So I'm curious. The air dryers. Yeah. The air dryers. How how risky are those? Is that? Would you rather see people walkout with wet hands if if that's the only option, no. You know we've talked I. Think Americans understand thoroughly handwashing now, but what? We haven't taught Oh. We don't hear so much in the conversation is the importance of hand drying? That's the second part of the of the of the process, so it is really important to dry your hands so preferably just because we really not sure about the potential. Effect of of blowing. Blowing things around in restaurants using these hand-driers preferably I would use paper towels possible, but if not go to the Hendra. Professors got obviously. Hygiene is your area of expertise specialize in this. Is there anything you think besides the handwriting that is missing from our conversation about hygiene or the way we think about an approach I gene. In restaurants be talking about. Or generally. Or generally. As we're navigating. Things are reopening. I think what's really important is that we have to I've been thinking about this today and thinking about. We just have to be so mindful about high hygiene. In a way that we haven't been for a very very long time, I mean decades, decades and decades. We've really become quite complacent. And so right now there's no room for complacency in so with with regard to this question of traveling I think. I've broken down into thinking. Prioritizing your plans to minimize your risk, and maybe that's why people are choosing not to fly because for them. That's not the most important priority right now. Taking personal responsibility to protect yourself and to protect others, and that's really high on my list. You know we don't just receive hygiene. We have to practice hygiene, and we practice it to protect ourselves and to protect people around us. And then it's a really interesting risk-benefit. Analysis that we're kind of all going through at this point Yup exactly. And then I think you know you've already mentioned the importance of planning and I think it's possible to do this. Safely as possible by really planning and breaking down the travel into small steps, and thinking about each part of the journey, and how to accomplish it safely. On paramount, all the time is a physical law, social distancing and wearing a mask. Dr Chen you talked at the beginning about some of the benefits of of traveling in a more local way. I do want to go to the phones here. We've got an interesting question from Yolette. In Randolph you let Radio Boston, what's on your mind? Hi thank you so much for having me I. In fact I see Dr Chen almost every summer before I traveled to Haiti for my volunteering work, and so my question to her is. Does she feel that he safe? To travel to a country like Haiti. Summer. It's a great question. You let the doctor challenge. Hi It's so nice to hear from you. thanks for that question so traveling abroad. This summer is quite complicated and so I. Think to start. We want to think about whether you have any increased risk. When it comes to cove it in terms of getting severe disease or the fatal disease, critical disease, and their number of health problems and and age older age is a concern and and then. cardiovascular disease diabetes hypertension Respiratory disease underlying. Respiratory disease those are all potentially can increase a travelers risk for severe disease from Colbert. So think about that and then consider whether you would tolerate certain. is coming down with Kobe m whether you would what would accept coming down with a disease like Kobe in a foreign country were in another country I aware that you go to Haiti regularly. On doing great work, but think about how you comfortable. You would feel if you were to get sick. And the so basically it's rush your threshold for the risk and risk tolerance, and how important is it to travel at this time versus postponing it a bit until The situation was Kovic is a bit clearer and then in terms of to interrupt your doctor, but I just WanNa follow at the situation. A bit clearer does that. Does that mean until we have a vaccine until we have effective treatment? What's the? Finish Click exactly so until the. Until we have an effective. And treatment and antiviral that will really take care of of Kobe and and then as far as so. Let's just assume that you are thinking that you are going to go. Then think about the transport itself the how you get to the airport ground transport Do you feel safe about that? One the airplane itself I think many airlines have introduced improve disinfection, social, distancing physical distancing in terms of seating. wearing. Face, covering face mask on good hand, sanitizing, wiping down disinfecting places that you touch trying to try to avoid touching your face trying to try to avoid touching high high traffic areas high touch areas when you're in the airports. Waiting areas. In places like that and stink about where you might be staying when you're ride there and whether they may be taking. Measures to reduce the chances of transmission of Colbert and so there are many many concerns, many more questions that we that we assess now with Kobe, and then as far as again. We also have to think about whether you're doing outdoor versus indoor activities when you're there whether you're going to be with large crowds, whether you might be among people who may be carrying it, but are not aware because they're not getting tested Due to the local health system and what their capacity is at your destination in terms of testing and health service foreigners, so there are many more questions that we we consider a few things to be thinking about. I want to get a couple more callers in a while. We've got a few minutes here Chrissy in Quincy. You're up next. Welcome to the show Chris. What's what's on your mind? Hi. Thanks for taking my call. On calling because my family and my sister and I, and sometimes my daughter, we like to go to the hydrogen festival down in the case. And we like to drive together. But we are not in the same household. wondering if that's. You know something we should be doing. Are we doing need to take separate cars? she is a great question. Chrissy and I'd love to add to that, too. Dr Chen mentioned think about where you're staying Let me throw this one to you. Professor Scott in terms of both driving. Should they drive in separate cars, but also if you're staying at a hotel or or rental property, what should you be thinking about on that end as well? Sure Great Karston Christie really. You kind of talking about expanding your bubble. It sounds like you're living in one bubble with with your family, and now you want to expand your bubble to your sister. And so the there are a lot of questions to to think about that I think obviously this straightforward answer is if you can drive separately then that would be the safest thing to do. Otherwise you really have to think about. Each party wants to get together in the bubble. To think about? Spending, time isolating yourselves before you get together so that you can get together actually even possibly testing that would be ideal if possible before you get together. And I know other people are thinking about getting together with other family members, and at this time of year people are often thinking about acting together. Bringing the kids up to see the grandparents, so another question is who's at risk in your bubble, you know. Is there anyone that you'd get together with WHO's a greater risk than you for complications of Kobe, because of their age or because other underlying conditions? And then Chris, you asked about whether you stay rentals and hotels so. Let's say that group that expanded bubble is staying together in an airbnb or something. Of that a feasible situation. How would you say that? There are questions to ask if you're renting going into a hotel? Things like? A asking. Asking the place you're going to who was last there a? Lot people lost their many airbnb talking about a three day buffer now between rentals so to give time because we know that the virus. Potentially can survive for up to seventy two hours on inanimate surfaces. I think that's. To give three days is a very safe period of time between. Between rental, so you know what's the buffet? Since anyone was lost there, how is the place being cleaned and disinfected these things you want to know about? Then when you get, you want to think well all before you get there. Is there room? The to safely quarantine someone if they were in in your family bubble. If they were to go down with symptoms, can you? Can you separate them out? So those are important things to think about. Before you even get there and then there is some things you can do when you actually actually arrive on-site. You want to wear moscow-new arrive. You want I would recommend opening up all the doors windows so that you have good airflow airflow. Through the indoor environment. and and then everybody who's in that bubble in that space now you become one family unit in that bubble, and you have to make some commitment to each other that you're going to now keep the bubble closed. So you know if you're with grandparents? Even if the grandparents stay I the base at the AIRBNB base, but other members of the family go off to some other event or two restaurants OBA's. You are in effect bringing all those people. You met your in effect bringing them back to your grandparents when you get back, so you know the has some mutual understanding and commitment as to what that time together is really going to look like. Dr Chen final question. We just got about twenty seconds or so AMAC's in western was wondering. It doesn't make sense to try to plan to travel to places with lower lower number of covid cases. I think that is a a good consideration. If you're thinking about going to another state for example that has lore Kobe, transmission, or another location and other country, but remember that different places have different requirements so. About the test members. Testing right, so you might. Might need to go into quarantine. We'll have to leave it there. That's Dr Lynn Chen. Director of the travel. Medicine Center at Mount Auburn Hospital President of the International Society of travel. Medicine and associate professor of Medicine at Harvard Medical School and Elizabeth Scott Associate Dean and professor of Biology at Simmons University thank you both so much. Really appreciate the time today.

Dr Lynn Chen Kobe Chris professor Haiti associate professor of medicin director Simons Center for Hygiene and airbnb Elizabeth Scott Boston Medicine Center Massachusetts Associate Dean President International Society of Trave Mount Auburn Hospital Jonathan Dr Chen Colbert
State v. Fred Freeman - Episode 3 - Unjust Stewards

Undisclosed

44:29 min | 1 year ago

State v. Fred Freeman - Episode 3 - Unjust Stewards

"One of the most difficult Biblical parables to decipher is the parable of the unjust steward which is also known as the parable of the shrewd manager and the very different meanings of my alternate titles alone is part of the confusion. Here's the description of the parable by nothingness principle in the parable a rich man confronts his steward who has made poor use of the rich man's goods rather than trying to make it right the stewart decide to suck up to his master's debtors. Cutting them sweetheart deals in hopes that they will take care of him after his fired. So what does the rich Man do? Well he actually praises stored for his prudent financial moves. He seems to miss the part about being cheated. Somebody the parable and straightforward fashion as a celebration of shrewd pragmatism. Impending Calamity. Something. We've all unfortunately been dealing with these past few months others though there's a condemnation of the steward for as unjust actions and using his master's resources for his own benefit but my interpretation is that while shrewd the steward is necessarily unjust because he's trying to serve two masters his boss and his boss's creditors creatine inevitable conflict of interest ends. The parable closes serving conserve to masters for either hate wine and love the other where he will be devoted to the one and despise the other in the prosecution of Fred Freeman. Several individuals presented themselves as shrewd managers. And it wasn't until years later that they were revealed to be unjust stewards Hi Welcome to undisclosed the state. Which is Fred Freeman? This is the third episode in a four episode series about Fred Freeman who was convicted of the nineteen eighty six murder of community college student. Scott macklin I'm Robbie Jari an attorney and author of a Non Story and as always I'm joined by my Co Host Susan Simpson and Colin Miller. Hi I'm Susan Samson Attorney in Washington. Dc and I blog at the view from LLC here by this is Colin Associate Dean and Professor at the University of South Carolina School of law and I blog it evidence prophet bog As we noted at the end of episode two at the close of the defense case in the Fred Freeman trial. The prosecution was in a pickle whether it be hypnosis shifting stories or identifying someone other than Freeman in police lineup there. I witnesses had issues. Meanwhile Freeman had numerous alibi. Witnesses placing him in the upper peninsula of Michigan which made it impossible for him to have driven to or from the scene of the murder of Scott McClellan in the lower peninsula in enough time and so- prosecutor. Bob Cleland called Pilot Bob Evans as a rebuttal witness at the very end of trial to testify that Freeman could have chartered a private plane to take him to and from the lower peninsula in enough time to commit the crime here in an interview before he passed away from defense counsel. David Dein explains the importance of Evans being called as a rebuttal witness at trial. You have to understand neither Fred nor I knew that the prosecutor until we bottled the very last chance. We don't have a chance after him speaking. He brings up this theory that Fred had someone flying down here and of course there was no evidence during the trial or anything in the police report to indicate that in fact That ever occurred breaking that down. If Cleveland Plan to call Evans as an expert witness as part of his case in chief he would have needed to disclose his existence and the nature of his plan testimony before the trial in. Turn the defense counsel could prepared for Evans testimony at trial and presented his own evidence and witnesses to challenge this theory as part of the defense case but instead cleland was able to convince the judge that Evans only became relevant based on what unfolded at trial. Meaning THE PRETRIAL. Disclosure was unnecessary. And that Evans would get the last word. And what Evans said was almost too good to be true. There was no evidence that Freeman had prearranged to fly from Escanaba to Port Huron. On the day of the murder let alone that he flew down there at all. But according to Evans no problem he would testify that there was always a group of pilots hanging there. The airport ray to fly drive up customer whenever they wanted. No questions asked here. If you excerpts from his testimony you sent this thing all week and Polish and you wait for somebody to come along the guests and it's you can fly you now. It's quite frequent for somebody to go out. Come Out Sunday or the spur of the moment. Find a pilot hanging around. Hey take me out. Somebody's always going to do it and ask somebody if they'd run them up there. I'll pay the expenses and most pilots especially a private pilot too expensive flying man like defied go for any reason as Freeman current attorney. Enron said notes. This is ridiculous because they come up with this theory of Folk. Theoretically you can. Just go down to the airport Any small airport in Michigan in nineteen eighty seven and You'll be some random pilots just sitting there while you you know four hundred miles and back and not making official log. That's right I mean that's insane. There's no evidence that anything like that happened. Yet that was presented to the jury in rebuttal in response to the supreme of Alibi but for the state the ridiculous became sublime as rich appelgren when the jurors who convicted Freeman remembered. Evans says exact claims years later there are pilots in a restaurant is a restaurant. They're they're waiting for things like this. Somebody comes in and They say why would like to Fi and boy jumping at sea? So who was Bob Evans? As far as the jurors now he was a neutral and objective state's witness whose name likely evoked one of the most wholesome figures in American history. Arresters we'd like your pick hours. So Bob Evans. We do a right or we don't do it wasn't until decades later that freemen's pro private investigator would learn that Cleveland Evans didn't do it right. They didn't do it right at all. What some of the major work that you've done in that area looking into this theory about chartering the private plane so thousand eight. I contacted detective. Jerry Hudson who was one of the two detectives that worked on House case. Detective Harry Hudson. I worked with for many years and I can say that Harry Hudson is a good man. He was a good investigator That he would never want to see an innocent person center prison for something they didn't do. But Harry Hudson wasn't the detective that was in charge of this case. He was one of two but he had a sergeant that was over him as far as the leadership in the investigation of this case. But I met with Harry one evening in two thousand and eight for about two hours and talk to him about this case and when I talked to him about the airplanes theory he said to me. You know who that the airplane pilot was going you know I have no idea. All I knew his name was Robert Evans. And that he had testified. Harry's Bob Cleveland. Who was running for? Attorney Channel here in the State of Michigan Today. I hear and in fact had just lost the election that DVD's for the murder. When Bob Cleland with fly to his speaking engagements throughout Michigan that Bob Evans was Bob. Cleland's personnel airplane time at him to these speaking engagements and I had never known that and of course this wasn't Brun out in trial and article from the local paper on the very day. The macklin murder details the extent of this relationship. According to Cleveland he logged more than six thousand miles in the air traveling around Michigan to campaign for Attorney General. So what ethical rules violated by Cleveland not disclosing his business relationship with Evans? Colin spoke with law Professor Kevin McNulty goal and expert on prosecutorial ethics from Case Western University Law. School yes so. Can you tell me the issue with attorneys such as a prosecutor calling an expert or an expert witness and not revealing a relationship such as a business relationship with that witness? Well the primary issue is served a constitutional duty to disclose exculpatory material that includes impeachment material and this stuff would be clearly impeachment material that would this could be attack because his prior relationships and all so that should have been revealed and there's often with an ethical obligation and the ethics rules of the state requires prosecutors also determine step over so both it's an ethical violation at custody violation not to turn over and then there's the impact that the nondisclosure could have had on the jury the jury without getting disclosure about this business relationship is essentially thinking this is just a neutral objective witness right. The risk is that they will overvalue. The expert testimony is presented as somebody was some kind of expertise. And there's a Lotta Looks Nicer Technical Mumbo jumbo out times playing. Was this guy wealthy enough to have had access to a private plane flying back and forth and stuff or you know he was. He was on welfare. He was appointed. Councillors indigence another. There's no indication he had the resources to be able to do this so that that makes it seem Kirkland plausible and speaking of implausible. Remember Cleland's claim that he shrewdly came up with a plan on the fly based on what happened to trial. There didn't have to be pretrial disclosure. One of Ulster's reports nerds the fouling. Harry Hudson stated. This theory came from Bob. Cleland Harry told me Bud Cleland would have frequent meetings with himself and Sergeant Bounds regarding the case and was quote very demanding. He stated that was during one of these meetings feeling came up with the theory. The Frederick Freeman took an airplane back to Escanaba after committing the murder. The jury ever learned about this story is conflict of interest. The Evans had based his business relationship with Cleveland and Cleveland. Sandbagging Labeling Evans. Surprise rebuttal witness. Put the defense behind the eight ball. Blow Bob Evans presented a theory about how Freeman could've committed the murder and while the state's witnesses testified that Freeman could have been in the community college parking lot before and after the murder estates. Leave some evidence. The freemen actually. You know committed the murder. Oftentimes you get these cases where the prosecution doesn't seem to have much evidence against the defendant and then at the eleventh hour they come up with some goofball who was in jail with a criminal record as long as your arm and who says yeah well. He told me he did it. That's law professor. Ron Brett's who has worked on the freemen case and he's talking about the jailhouse and former in this case. Philip Joplin Freeman was arrested on November fourteenth. Nineteen eighty six. He didn't confess to the police that he committed the macklin murder and he didn't confess to a man named Walter J who was in the jail cell next to him. I ended up next refrigerator in that case. Was the news every single day. Every every radio station on radio we had a portable radio in the cell on the every fifteen minutes. They were talking about the freemen case. And I kind of intriguing that that was locked up next to this guy and he adamantly Said I'm not I didn't do this. I had nothing to do with this. I was open was four hundred miles away from where this happened when it happened. Indeed no one from any correctional facility has come forward to claim that Freeman confessed. November December January February march or at any point in time between May nineteen eighty-seven and April. Two Thousand Twenty but on April twenty. Second Nineteen ninety-seven. Philip Joplin sent a letter addressed to prosecutor. Bob Cleland. It started as follows. Dear Mr Cleland last Monday the twentieth of April. I was in the hauling South to George Gordon's court awaiting sentencing receiving ceiling. Over one hundred dollars charge in the with me was a guy named Fred Freeman. I sat in the cell for an hour and a half to about two hours listening to the talk. I guess they feel free to talk because I was an ex con about to go back to prison for a short period of time. Joplin then we used the story about how. Freeman confessed to him that he committed the murder including the fact that the victim screamed when he was shot which was surprisingly Joplin. Who quote thought your just instantly dead and according to Joplin quote. I don't even know why he was telling me. I don't even know this dude. Nor does he know me? Joplin then closed his letter as follows. The Sky appears to be very smart and he thinks it's going to get out of. This is definitely very coffin at his alibi. He wouldn't tell me how he did that. He just smiled. Does that help any Freeman? Trial started a mere six days later and Joplin would become one of the state's star witnesses. His testimony began as testimony by jailhouse. Informants often does with the prosecution. Trying to claim that he was an un- incentivized good citizens serving only one master justice. I CLEVELAND HAS JOPLIN STATE IS CRIMINAL RECORD. Joplin saying he had eight or nine convictions. Stretching back to nineteen sixty nine including two for forgery and one for receiving and concealing stolen property. Second Joplin came forward with his story about being in that holding cell with freemen between one and a half and two hours just after he was sentenced for his latest crime. Meaning that he wasn't an indeed couldn't be seeking any leniency by coming forward and Third Cleland. Joplin testified that he hadn't been fed any of the details of testimony by police or prosecutors said. He's shot this guy would shut gone prosecutor's office told me that when I made that statement to make sure that I turned towards jury jury. If that's all the prosecutor's office told Joplin to do things would have been fine and the prosecution. What had been the shrewd manager spinning Joplin Straw into gold but three years after. Freeman was convicted. Joplin signed an affidavit claiming that hadn't been the case and that it had instead been a case of an unjust steward or really unjust stewards in pertinent. Part the affidavit states the following as an inducement to having me testify against Mr Freeman I received promises from the Saint Clair County Prosecutor's office and from the officer in charge of Freeman's case specifically I was told by prosecutor Houlahan that I would benefit from testifying and would make a lot of friends in the right places along the way detective bounds told me more civically what Houlihan meant. He said I would not be returned to prison. But I will be released into community placement and that. Who would watch out for me to make sure all this happened. All this began when I wrote a letter to the Saint Clair County Prosecutor's office claiming that I heard something from Freeman about his case bounds and Houlahan had transferred out of our GNC. At Jackson to the Macomb County jail. They saw to it. That money was placed in my account. Had Me take into the prosecutor's office to school me about what to say? And what not to say several days and return me to the Satellite County jail. After testified against Freeman from the Santa. Let County jail. I was placed into the Department of Corrections Community Residential Program Justice. I had been promised. Contemporaneous records corroborate Joplin's claim on April Twenty Eighth Nineteen eighty-seven the first day of Freemen's trial Joplin's parole agent. Michael Barrow sent Joplin a letter stating that. He could quote request a commercial placement or a correction center in this county and should receive it without difficulty. This was then followed by a letter on. May Twenty eighth nineteen eighty seven by a man named Steve Spreitzer to art. Hobart the operations manager of community programs at the Department of Corrections letter stated. I'm writing a hall to our previous discussion about a client. I'm doing some advocacy for too quickly. Refresh your memory. Phil Joplin received some promises when the assistant prosecutor in Saint Clair County as part of the deal to entice him to testify against cellmate. Massinc Clara County jail. Our fear is that assistant prosecutor. Houlahan has yet to initiate the community placement process. Phil would like to be placed in the Port Huron Correctional Center. We greatly appreciate any assistance. You could offer. I'm enclosing a copy of the letter from Fills Peo- Barrow so who is St Spicer? Well Colin spoke to him. Recently Grad Program Can have a little faith community in the criminal justice system and a fill game aware of us in A lot of guys inside are leveraging any resources We might have to help him so You know we did what we could the guy who got out and came to the Lansing area where I was in school and working at out of a church and I met a learned about his lifetime of challenges and next thing I know he was off the port here. Our kids of deeper connections economical was girlfriend was but he was off the board here on then. I get a letter that he's in the jail and I had I had completely forgot. I wrote a letter on behalf but one of the investigators shared that letter with me on Church stationer. I recall the bit about him. Mom feeling like he got taken advantage of here and that letter spots are still inlet. Where apply letter from Hobart? We have been in contact with assistant. Prosecutor Houlahan have agreed to place. Mr Joplin in our port. Huron Resident Home Program of our supervisors will be visiting him in jail. And completing a program application following that arrangements will be made to transfer him directly to our program in Port Huron. He will not be needed to route it through the prison system So was Joplin sanitized into writing testimony or did he give false testimony in response to an offer he couldn't refuse calling. Esperance are about this. Call Him speaking about that. He was operating with the was the prostate attorney or to Help them on the manner they had he could get. You could get out of jail. Basically what I recall and was he saying that you in the sense of. I'm just cooperating. Or was it more along the lines of? I'm making something up or telling them they will want to hear. Yeah Yeah that's an important question I think Yet yeah more the latter. I did not. This was a painful conversation as I recall it for him but he's caught with having given kind of what they wanted. Spicer's inference ended up being corroborated by Joplin himself when he was interviewed by reporter. Bill proctor and private investigator. Alan Woodside years later. You see my guy. Did you meet on a college campus or something and you were talking about Mr Freeman? It says the dude was telling me. Yep He did it but you'd never be able to prove it this. The freemen ever really say that now did he ever say something about the victim screaming when he shot him. Did he ever say used a shotgun to kill somebody Unfortunately JOPPA terminally ill at the time of this interview so we never submitted. New Affidavit fully recanted his testimony but Alan Woodside the private investigator. Summarize that interview in his affidavit here are some of the key takeaways. One JOPLIN had heard of inmates getting favorable treatment for snitching to reach such a prosecutor. Bob Peeling quote without any thought or concern and minds for the harm owed bring Freeman to Freeman told Joplin he was innocent. Joplin decline quote with some common facts. Nor most everyone and use the new. We have this story about Freeman confessing three average. I wrote the letter. He was transferred to another jail to avoid the news media and quote admonished. Against saying anything in the event anyone were to attempt to question for prosecutors and police discussed details of the case with him and quote ruminating coaching him about how and what to say in arranging his testimony five. John was promised to transfer to the community residential program in exchange for his testimony and was also given a VCR and clothes and finally six jot must control with the help of a local psychiatrist who had previously helped with mental health issues. But even with these promises chop still got cold feet somewhere along the way and talking to the police and the prosecutors they asked to say do certain things and you decided somewhere along the way that you didn't think you wanted to do that. Yeah it was after Robben Island after the snatch me Outta Outta here about two weeks after that after going through all this thing with them I I I. I wanted to back Nevada. And what did they got very mad and upset about that. So the reasons to believe the Joplin light at trial and that would told Woodside and proctor was in fact the truth to get some possible answers. I spoke with leading experts on jailhouse informants the First Session. Outta path a professor at the UC Irvine School of law spoke about the culture of informing in prison which bears directly upon Joplin's explanation of why he implicated Freeman. There has grown up in the American criminal system in the American Carswell system in particular widespread understanding in jails and prisons that cooperation and information will trigger benefits and are and so most informants will ma individuals who come into jails and come into our presence will learn or hear her or come to understand that this is the deal and so there's we've made kind of announced an announcement to jail population that our cooperation and benefits and leniency always on the table. Joplin's claims but the benefits you is giving right and so you specifically mentioned better placement and so in this particular case we have individuals who says I was already convicted. I was already sentenced. I don't have any pending appeal. But what do you see in terms of informants coming forward to try to get better placement within a correctional institution search all kinds of benefits that conformance to get as a matter of law. The government subs entirely unconstrained in the kind of benefit. They can give so they so our Sarah and prosecutors can a move individuals to more comfortable advantageous placements. They can help with parole hearings. They often do are. The government comes forward later. Even if they haven't promised an environmental may that as part part of the plea deal come forward in subsequent hearings in an informant's case in represented the court about this person has been has been helpful. We know stories about informants who are incarcerated who got money. They got thrown privileges. They I've got sex. They buy drugs. They got food television. They all kinds of things so catch the range of benefits that are available. And that we know that informant Scott's Only limited by their own imagination and the willingness of the government moreover what about Joplin's mission regarding mental health issues and not as lengthy criminal record but the types of crimes it was littered with. I spoke with Robert and Bloom Professor at Boston College Law School. And you'd also mentioned before looking at the mental health history of an informant in has that Wayne's the analysis certainly if there's there's an indication from previous cows fling psychiatrists something in the record. That indicates this person makes up stories or possibly what has been convicted of fraud. For example or other kinds of crimes that would indicate lying that becomes an important factor to think about and what can use of jail informing testimony? Tell us about the strength of the state's case I think the studies that have done of US attorneys offices of prosecutors I think I think a person a blonde ski I think in Fordham wrote an article. About this they're kind of a weird then. Informants don't always tell the truth that comes to you know tunnel vision. They need the informants. Otherwise if they didn't need the informants they wouldn't use and places where they need the informants the most is when they have a weak case. Of course Cleveland Claims Philip Joplin felon his lap at the last minute. Which would mean that. His testimony was not a commentary on his case. But Walter J who as we noted was in the cell next Freeman suggests a competing narratives. I was approached by two gentlemen I believe was Alec Brown and the other one I believe and I can't be for certain with was Robert Cleland. They wanted to know if I had if I could provide them with any information regarding Frederick Thomas Freeman. I got the impression that they would have caught me slack As a prisoner. That was willing to say that he confessed. That was the distinct impression that I got from these two gentlemen. Of course this isn't concrete enough to say anything definitive and it still wouldn't answer the question of whether Freeman confessed Joplin Freeman though adamantly denies that he confessed. It was an insult. Of course I think I was so stupid I would even do something like that To spend all my time telling anybody who would listen. I'm innocent and suddenly to come forward and say oh. I'll tell you that I did it. And plus I'll tell you details about it and that was you know that was very shocking but Freeman. Isn't the only one tonight's at both Freeman in Joplin? Say they weren't alone and that holding cell story based on fact it's called a third man and the third man in this case the only other person in the holding cell was a man name. Booker T. Brown and the defense called him. A trial Brown had one prior conviction for breaking and entering and he was currently being held on suspicion for a probation violation related to that crime. Brown's testimony was short. And for the defense sweet okay and who was all in the room with me Fred and Joplin? Okay and you say Fred. You mean the defendant right Mr Freeman and didn't a discussion began my Mr Freeman about his case. Yes and can you tell us basically what he was talking about? Well you say that he didn't do it But Brown's testimony wasn't enough to dissuade at least one juror. That Joplin was telling the truth. She would tell a local newspaper. That was Joplin's testimony. That convinced her a Freeman guilt. If Freeman were wrongfully convicted based on Joplin's testimony he wouldn't be alone. According to two thousand study by the National Registry of exonerations eighty one of one hundred sixteen death penalty exonerations meaning seventy percent involved. Perjury or false testimony by incentivize witnesses. Ooh another leading causes of wrongful. Convictions is ineffective assistance of counsel. And this is another aspect of Freeman's case. According to numerous people defense counsel David. Dein was a real live. Doppler Ganger for beloved Sitcom character cheers with a Sitcom about recovering alcoholic. Sam Malone where as a theme song makes clear everybody knows each other's names a fun concept for a Sitcom but probably not the best idea in real life and according to Freeman definitely not a good idea in the case of David. Dein all kinds of jobs. We did a year prior to my case. He was caught sorting cocaine and a park putting Ohio and he was actually on a no cocaine. No alcohol prohibition during my case meanwhile he owned and lived in a bar and the judge overseeing his probation was my trial judge. Jeans t court that's crooked those guys are down there. Here's a guy who's on no no drugs no alcohol probation closely monitored and everything. And he's a far all night every night. I mean just shows you sound really bad things were they all do this and bounds and Cleveland. All those guys we just borrowed aren't even drinking for free. Thomas who had all the crooked ones every crooked cop in that town boiled all the dirty ones Lincoln. His place it was called a routine was called Wall Street and renamed the cabinet crowd. Most of this can be corroborated. David Dean used to be a prosecutor working on her. Bob Cleland the prosecutor from his trial before leaving the prosecutor's Office for private practice in nineteen eighty three. The next year in Nineteen eighty-four a quit claim deed lists Dean and to prosecutors from Cohen's office as the owners of the property where Dean's Bar was located later that year but Eve's placed in Dean's name alone and the next year in one thousand nine hundred five David. Dein was indeed arrested for drug abuse and possession of cocaine then ninety-six Dean was entered into the three year treatment in lieu of conviction program which included the following condition. You shall not possess consume purchase. Or have under your control any alcoholic beverages nor shall you enter any place where alcoholic beverages are sold. Accept such places as where? The sale of alcoholic beverages is incidental. Some other primary business purpose and yet dean not only owned and operated a bar that was frequented by prosecutors and police but also ran his law office out of it like the Bowling Alley law firm the TV show Ed just operating and even being the spar would have violated the conditions at the program. But there's also evidence that Dean was partaking of the beverages that he was selling. Here's freemen's then fiancee. Michelle would worth some time. He was you know he acted like he had you know maybe had some drinks for lunch or something. I don't know I. I never saw him do that but I I know that he just kind of you know he could probably on that afternoon and there's also evidence that Dean's cocaine use wasn't a one time thing. Here's John Manali. The owner of the karate studio who served as an alibi witness of trial his lawyer his lawyer. I don't know how he got that case or anything but his lawyer seemed more interested in his secretary and lunches and I don't know he just seemed preoccupied the whole time and you could tell this is the eighties cocaine was ramp it back then and I have friends and everything like that you can tell. The guy was on something really key three bucks in a row straight. He gets jumping all over the place and tell us one thing and then tell us another thing. He had no idea what he's doing. It seemed like to me right and of course he was ultimately disbarred for the drug use. Good yeah because obvious to Cathy Mark and myself that this guy was going on with him right Freeman. Would eventually submit an affidavit. During one of his appeals stating the following during much of the trial. Mr Dean seem confused and unfocused. He exhibited the signs of one with a drug addiction. Sometimes seeming unaware of his surroundings and saying things that made no sense. He often smelled a reason substantial alcohol ingestion and appeared to be intoxicated. Many of the calls made Mr Dean by Afghan were of necessity made to him at a bar. Since that was the place where the Afghan was most likely to reach Mr Dean. During much of the trial he seemed to take little interest in the proceedings and rarely objected to the admission of evidence including evidence has seemed to African inflammatory and improper. African understands that Mr Dean was during this time of his life undergoing treatment for drug addiction and was an alcoholic and this was common knowledge within the legal community in Saint Clair County end as Freeman. Who has noted now goes by the name. Ken So told me recently. These drug habit led to increasingly desperate behavior problem once and of course. I didn't know that understand. I've I've never been a drug. I I had no idea what crack this is. Nine hundred eighty six and I live in the up. And I've never been drunk guy there've been around drug people. I Tom Ford Shelley. They'll tell you we never had any drunk people around us they can. Somebody smoked marijuana but no you know heroin cocaine. None of that kind of stuff. I'm nothing about cracking up at about eight us. Pretty you know sheltered life I think and so Early on he starts asking for stuff and he asked you inventory. Everything that I've got and I wrote this handwritten inventory valuables which were not much and I had Shelly put my stuff in storage now. What I didn't know what she was going in the garden. Lindy stealing everything that I have. I have some documentation. I told you where you're forced to power attorney. He Authorizes Frank. Gehry NOP to go into the storage. He wrote a handwritten lists and things he wanted. The Guy Steele the meantime he's coming back to me and say it's not GonNa give me enough money but he wasn't doing anything you know and he's like oh. I have to get these experts all these things. I'm like well the courts supposed to do that. I mean I'm reading. You're supposed to get all that covered by the court. So then he starts asking either drugs and I'm talking about. He goes well. You're like a rock and roll guy. You can always girlfriends now. You must have cocaine and I was like dude I lived at Farnborough Quicken Rocket A. Up What are you nuts? Nobody's cocaine up. There won't use cocaine. Abdul heavy metal guy like drugs right and I was like you gloss burke in mind and I told Shelley this guy's messed up but there's nothing I could do. I tiffany money. I couldn't get lawyer and the minute shelley took off and saw his chance steal everything. This claim is corroborated by a man named Scott Mikula. Who signed an affidavit? In connection with the Appeal Michaelis said that he facilitated crack and cocaine sales to Dean and his law firm slash bar in nineteen eighty six nine hundred eighty seven and that dean was using and abusing those drugs and Mikula also stated that Dean suddenly came into possession of quote a vast array of martial arts equipment both hunting equipment and an electric and Acoustic Guitar. Some of the very items that can says dean stole from him. Subsequent Nineteen Ninety Dean was removed from a case when his client told the judge had sold Dean drugs then later in nineteen ninety team was arrested when police on except package the possibly contains cocaine and dean ended up testing positive for the drug. Soon claims against Dean started flowing in and it became clear he had been stealing money from client escrow accounts to fuel his drug habit. Dean was suspended and then disbarred ultimate admitting that quote during the time you're abusing its like being in a cloud you don't get your senses back until you remove yourself in that situation. You see it. All you think about is your addiction. The case of one man represented by Dean is especially pertinent to the freemen case. David Dein represented a man name Randy Overton on murder charge. That would result in his conviction overton himself was a cocaine user and he recognized the signs of cocaine abuse by Dean including quote extreme lack of ability to concentrate confusion and a lack of preparation. According to Overton most work in the case was done by Janice Barnum Dean Secretary Barnum. Herself would then testified. Dean was using and abusing alcohol and cocaine continuously starting in January nineteen eighty-seven which is exactly when Dean was representing. Freeman a eventually granted over to a new trial. Highlighting the following. But I guess the main reason that this court consider is the fact that Mr Dean of self is involved in substance abuse. He has a substance abuse problem which has not been refuted and my opinion that would affect his status as a defense counsel in this particular case. Similar evidence was presented and freemen's appeals including another claim by Freeman. Now he told me there's some court rule saying that I can't testify when everybody else has testified because it looks suspicious or some silly thing like that. I'm like wait. Wait tell the judge I wanNA testify and I made a big scene about this. He wouldn't do it. I wasn't ought to testify. Then he told the court that I didn't want to F- Freeman is telling the truth. This was a violation of his right to testify Dean for his part and midst. The Not Calling Freeman was a strategic mistake but he claims that was jointly. Made the only thing I could have done on hindsight as I would have forced Frederick State and that was a mistake but it was a decision we both made. And then there's the conflict of interest that was never disclosed a freeman starting bounds. The lead officer and criminal case had been removed from the Port Huron Police Department based on legal gambling and numbers running. And you guessed it. David Dein was one of the attorneys who represented bounds at least as late as nineteen eighty-four. And who helped him get his job back? Here's the honorable. Thomas Brennan the former chief justice of the Michigan Supreme Court as well as framed himself the ineffective assistance of counsel. I think in this case Goes deeper than what you can see on the record The the fact for example that this defense lawyer had also been the lawyer for the chief investigating police officer some some time before this case Which would give him a sort of a classic conflict of interest best friends everybody in the court and he has to endear himself these people where he works in Iraq or anybody so given all this evidence of misconduct by defense counsel the prosecution and the police. You might wonder how Freeman was not granted a new trial. Well the answer is he was and then he wasn't next time on undisclosed Thanks for listening to this episode of undisclosed like to thank the following people. Rebecca Lavar for audio production Christy Williams for website management baton or executive producer. Of course. I'd like to thank our sponsors as always you can support a Patriot site at Patriot dot com slash undisclosed pod. And you can follow us at facebook twitter and instagram using the handle at undisclosed time

Frederick Thomas Freeman prosecutor Philip Joplin Joplin Third Cleland murder Cleveland David Dean Bob Evans Fred Freeman attorney Freeman cocaine David Dein professor Scott macklin investigator Colin Associate Dean and Profe Michigan dean
Ep 23 - David Jaffe

Iron Advocate

35:50 min | 8 months ago

Ep 23 - David Jaffe

"David Jaffe is the associate dean of student affairs at American University Washington College of Law. One of the largest law schools in the country. David is a pioneer woman who was on The Cutting Edge of the dialogue surrounding the connection between wellness and true success in the law David shares his vision for sparking Innovative conversations and design a unique course work in law schools, which will produce lawyers with a growth mindset as they Blaze new trails within the profession. Our discussion is a realistic Journey Through the challenges facing a profession as we continue to uncover the off ignored connection between wellness and winning enjoy this episode of iron Advocate as we continue to explore how lawyers can kill it in the practice of Law Without It killing us. You're listening to iron Advocate the podcast dedicated to you the trial attorney stage in a warrior unfiltered no-holds-barred iron Advocate. Wow, joined Bob Levante, Jeff mobile and today's top legal Minds on a journey to discover how to kill it in a law without it killing you because being the best advocate for others begins with being the best advocate for yourself. Thanks a lot for being here David. My pleasure. Thanks so much for having me today. So people in firms see Wellness kind of like a smiley face magnet on the refrigerator many of them the addiction depression divorce even suicide as the cost of doing business. How can the lawyer well-being movement in which you're really strong voice get through this long long-standing forcefield kind of ingrained culture and continue to make progress. That's a great opening question and it and it's a big one but probably a great place to start. We were seeing gradual changes. We're seeing some chinks in the armor, but quite honestly, we're not going to have wholesale movement until Law Firm see these issues as important as their bottom line until they see that thought that the revenue stream if that's what's driving or Law Firm is going to be positively affected by their lawyers being healthier until we get the issues of stigma out-of-the-way wage is now Law Firm specific or or Jermaine, but as one of the significant issues out there, this is a conversation mental health is a disease like any other and it's almost like any other and if we would if we're going to support our attorneys and our law students when they're dealing with cancer or dealing with diabetes or dealing with something else then there's No reason that we shouldn't be dealing with mental health issues at the exact same level. And once we recognize that across the board and begin to address it across the board. We're going to all be better for David. How can you get law firms? And especially let's say the the largest Law Firm is to to understand that this is a bottom line issue. What's been successful? Well what I've heard so I to be to be fair, my my feet are probably are are more ensconced in the law school environment, but what I've heard from colleagues and what I've spoken with attorneys and Friends obviously having graduated myself or at the law firms. The bottom line is is the big one oftentimes that will relate to turn over or retention wage. They're obviously significant resources that have to be put in everytime an attorney decides to leave for a more comfortable environment. So that is significant. It also has a job. A an effect on certainly a team if they're working on a project or individual attorney. You should have to pick up the work in the absence in that regard. But there's also you know the basic kind of merging component as well. If folks are not feeling well and comfortable in a firm that permeates and it's not just the attorneys but it's the staff. It's the folks who are working diligently to support them are also being affected and it just does not make for a positive environment further to that. You know, the kind of spider spider spider web effect if an attorney is not being supported and it's not feeling well he or she is taking that home. It's affecting their family situation, which is then going to double back on the work effort that they're able to put in or not able to put in it just continues to build upon itself. And so the firm's again need to have their eyes open need to have this fully apart of the of the partner committee meetings or whatever. Meetings that they're having in theory or in practice Wellness committees ought to be set that are being taken seriously. So that concerns can be raised within the firm and that the general counsel whose whoever is helping a supervised can help to manage that you should have opportunities for anonymous or confidential reporting because their concerns typically more so perhaps for junior attorneys are those who want, you know partner track may not be comfortable sharing some of the environmental issues that are taking place but you have to have that door open or nothing's going to change it. Would you mention mental health issues? And I know that that's a a pervasive and all often overlooked issue and I my question for you is around addiction other things that seems that lawyers are more willing to admit they have was saying alcohol problem than admit that they're emotionally or overwhelmed somehow mentally or psychologically dead. Struggling have you found or seen ways that you can help lawyers and law students who you're more familiar with come forward around their emotional and psychological struggle. It's a great question Jeff and I I I would to be candid. I don't know if this will be a direct answer but but I'm going to think aloud a little bit and I invite your input and wage in Bob's as well in this Regard in the law school setting what I have found to be very interesting. We've had at our law school to Washington College of Law. We've had a satellite counselor meeting somebody who's hired from where the main Camp Counseling Center but is working exclusively with law students and although we are screened from having any individual information about a student without their consent or permission. I am able to get a great job information and what I've heard and I think this probably would spill forward as well the the issues in the law school setting by and large are not law school grounded and yep. What I mean by that I mean to be fair students have concerned around tuition. They have concerns around where their future employment is going to be. They have concerns around grades and things like that. But by and large when they're meeting with our counselor of the issues that are spread that they're bringing forward that they're sharing and trying to resolve are typically issues that have to do with situations that occurred prior to law school family situations relationships situations, maybe Trauma from when they were younger that have not quite been addressed and the senses that this may be coming out for the first time because they're you know college was kind of a chance to be free and not necessarily doing as much self care, but just kind of being away from home and maybe experimenting and kind of living that life. And now it's this pivot in law school where things need to be taken. Seriously this Thursday for most except for very few students. This is going to be the terminal degree prior to practice and so a lot of these issues seem to Bubble forth really for the first time and yep. As you mentioned you have the issues around mental health because the stigma is still they're not that it's not around alcohol as well. But there's a greater understanding that there are you know prevalent issues around alcohol. And and so that seems to be more acceptable kind of in quotes to some degree where mental health is still there's is presumption that it's the individual's fault that there's something that he or she should have control over and there's typically I even more so in the in the legal profession the environment where you will have a number of you know, type A individuals who feel that they should be able to be on top of everything they should not need assistance and and so the issues that haven't been addressed or just they just pop up and and and again, you know, this is going to be the common theme the way to be able to address them to say this is is normal is to normalize into a degree and then provide the resources without judgment without any repercussions from it to be able to address them. So David out there to unpack. Let me start with this sort of it's not even a premise. I think it's a it's a fact wage laws a very isolating profession law school was isolating the laws isolating, right? So what what I hear you saying is that law school in the nature of the law exacerbates long have I mean everybody has suffering and we all have wounds and when we find ourselves in all School those wounds are are probably infected even more so than in many other professions off that that's my personal take as somebody who who fits that mold. How do we so I'm a trial lawyer as you know, and confronting the isolation and the fear and vulnerability has made me a far better tropical are on the back end of my career than I at least this end of it. I hope there's still more ends of it than I was at the front end off. How do we convince lawyers and particularly law students from from where you're sitting that embracing the things that you just talked about actually will unlock the greatest version of an advocate that they have within them again a very good question and I have what I believe is that is a fairly simple answer. I think the more that Peter's come out and and so really depending on the environment if you're talking about the law firm setting its colleagues in the law school, you're talking about classmates, right? I I've been dean of students for twenty-five years. It took me a good number of those years to develop a thick enough skin to appreciate that. I'm I care about my students. I'm passionate about what they're going through. I want to work with any students having an issue. But often times I'm going to be seen as an administrator somebody who is either holding judgment or in the perception of some students office is going to have an obligation to report out. Let's say the character and fitness or two other bodies, and so I may not be to go to individual. But classmates particularly classmates who may be in recovery and are comfortable as part of the recovery and working with students have this absolute gift and power to be able to speak to students home until they perhaps can find the trust and be able to speak with me and know that I have the resources and desire to help them to be able to get those students in that direction. I think in the law firm analogy and again may be even more difficulty because of the attorney to make up the kind of the DNA of the attorneys that we already referenced. I think it's it's an extremely bold and brave individual who's willing to say I'm in recovery. I can help colleagues of mine are going through it. I can speak at a firm meeting. I'm happy to do so because I'm confident in where I am, and I know that I can help other individuals and and Iraq. It's a fairly simplistic response to your questions you have but really can be it's a really profound because now you're looking at somebody who's saying she's where I need to be dead. But she's she's she's working, you know again as a student and she's effective as a student or she's working, you know by my side or in my law firm and I can see that she has succeeded and I know that she was where she is where I want to be that I can get there. And so I think those peer-to-peer context and again can be difficult handful of years ago. I couldn't even offer that in my school because I didn't have students who were coming to me and I've been blessed the last couple of years where I've had a couple of students each year following orientation where I've expressed my desire to support our students around these areas that stuff since you said no Health. I've had students come to me and say we heard from upper level classmates that you believe in this and you support it. I'm somebody in recovery. I want to make myself available to my classmates and it's been it's it's a godsend quite frankly home and I think again the more we can get that message out of the power and that happening the better off we're all going to be and and if I could Echo that David but also say this that obviously the recovery is khong We important and the the recognition that it's okay to step forward, but there's also the underlying you know wounds as you said that that lead to you know, the addictions the severe depressions and and I think that it's also some of the wellness practices that includes, you know regular therapy, which is really out there for for almost anybody if if you look for it budget or not. They're a lot of of outlets for that, you know coaching mentoring found anybody listens iron Advocate knows Jeff and I openly talked about our use of therapists which which has been critically important to my success as trial lawyer and my Wellness practice so long, I think it it runs throughout all lawyers because again, you know being a lawyer pushes you toward this idea of having the answers being strong never admitting fear this idea that job If if clients are other lawyers here you you know question yourself in any way that that that's a weakness. They don't want to see that leads to all the things we're talking now and with that backdrop, let me let me ask you this if if you were if you were granted unlimited budget know curriculum restrictions and ask to create new law school. What would the title of a course or to be aimed at creating the personally and professionally strongest Advocates that you could sure I thought about that many many times and and I probably I'm a butcher the titles but I think one of the the two courses that I'd have in mind would be my faithfulness in the law and the second one would be a course on a professional identity formation. They're both they're both self-seeking and self-learning at the end of the day off. Mindfulness and I'm sure most of your listeners or will be aware of it. But just the the ability to be in the moment with oneself to kind of just kind of tune some other things out and you know do some practicing breathing and just kind of bringing oneself back to Center and being okay in the moment, which just has the incredible ability to clear the mind and allow one to go forward the professional identity and professional identity formation is again is more about self. Who is it? What are the skill sets that I have that are going to allow me to engage and be a productive individual in the world. What are the same sets? Then it may be lacking that I can find some time and ability and maturity to learn and wonders what are some of the challenges that I might have that maybe from my upbringing maybe skill-sets just I just, you know, I didn't learn well could have been parenting could have been other things could have been trauma that affected me in my way. What can I do in those areas to improve myself and and the courses do exist wage? We need to do a better job at seeing them expand so that every law school is considering them and and and I would say by if I may take this Moment by extension off and it's something that's very dear to me and actually some current recent conversations that have been held about we also need in the law school setting to be ensuring that our students are receiving perhaps in addition to these courses, but are receiving a minimum education a minimum dose of understanding around substance use of mental health what they mean and where to go for resources and it's actually something that I am pushing with the ABA to see us have as an amendment to their standards so that as part of a law school to be re-accredited that they would have to sustain that as a learning outcome of their graduates of their stooge that they would have been steeped in this education. So a couple of couple of components at least in a law school setting that I think would help in that regard book. David the what you're saying really resonates with with me something Bob and I talked about, you know all the time almost every day. And the question I have around that is off. How do we deliver these Services these this information to law students when we know the law students and lawyers are hurting we know this and Bob and I talked about, you know our own pain and it seems like there's a there's a huge amount of Shame and vulnerability particular around mental emotional health issues, which underlie a lot of the addiction problems that you've talked about the addiction just as sort of the you know, the above the waterline. Peace. How do you package them in a way so that law students won't shy away from a class like that and they'll say oh that's for somebody else. I don't want to look at my vulnerabilities. But how do you package it or sell it to people in a way so they can log Actually realize this is going to make them a better Advocate stronger what they do they're going to win more because we all know how competitive law students are. At least I was at home and was how do we package that better to them? Yeah, I mean it's it's another good question. It it takes time. It really takes time. I I've been we've been pushing for one of the courses to be added where I work. And again, I know a number of law schools are doing it and often times the only concern as well, aren't you going into preaching to the choir the students who are ready to get into the ones we're going to gravitate towards it and that may be true. But I also and we've seen examples that I mean the happiness course at Yale is a great kind of one-off but but similar example, which is it's been oversubscribed every year you can't get into it. You put it out there and and it starts to tend to go out. I mean word gets out from a successful, press Professor teaching a successful course that are really made a difference in the lives of the students and you gather students journals and you have them talk about it. You may in some instances. Although most. I mean most law schools have quality faculty, but sometimes students resonate even better with an outside in dog. Jewel and so you might you might invite somebody into teach a course like that as an adjunct to is already steeped in the area as part of their profession and that brings some added cachet and Intrigue to the students who are looking to do in life. You could even bring back alumni and often times alumni can also have that resonance, you know, if they're steeped in the area because they can appreciate in the students can appreciate again. I am in a position as a student and I'm looking ahead and I'm seeing that you are in the type of position that I'd like to be in so you can you can find some teasers and ways if you will that can make it more attractive but it does take time. You have to change the course you have to have it has to be successful you have to assess it and make sure it's been successful and I think it will, you know, it's some version of the if you build it it will come and I think it just continues to to grow and strengthen over time. So I can tell you my experience with with some of these classes and the way I hear mindfulness talked about and I've been practicing meditation for a while and I'm trained to teach meditation the lawyer's office. I I find it to be just lacking. You know, as I said to Bob I like my Wellness with a shot of bourbon and I often times feel like there's not enough time. There's not enough. I'm behind not enough Porsche not enough. If somebody's inviting me to explore my my own vulnerability just gotta be some reason other than just cuz I have if I'm going to admit this to myself. Oh and I'm a lawyer and all I care about is sort of winning there has to be something deeper. And so it's I guess this is a comment but but a question for you, is this something you think the folks in the office call The Wellness movement in the law are starting to connect these dots so that they see they're not going to get two people just by saying. Hey, we need these problems these problems address, but they show folks off something that's actually going to make them, you know better advocates. I don't know. It's a it's a great observation Jeff when I honestly don't know the answer to it, what would I do know and maybe this isn't the best way to approach it, but the the hand-wringing that follows the suicide that occurs at a law firm where you have partners and Associates and others looking around and saying either we should have seen the signs or we need to do something better is not offer any law firm ought to be waiting for and we've had enough examples both with law firms that have had a willingness to express what it is felt like to go through that and indeed have come out as a bathroom afterwards together with what I imagine are still law firms where that information is hidden to the extent that it can be out of fear that you know clients are going to go running off at this is a law firm that's unique and has some particular problem when we know that it's across the board in terms of you know, how to continue to push the movement. It's I mean, it's just read that we've been discussing during this podcast and I know that the two of you had in others, which is it is only it is only a good and positive investment. You know, we we each have one life to live at the end. In the day and we want to be or ought to be as healthy as we can be and so whether it's the you know bottom line production for a law firm or just any individual saying I know I'm going to feel better if I can work these issues. It's all the same positive result at the end of the day, but but as to whether we're we're hitting on all cylinders yet and we still have work to do there's clearly work to be done in that regard Jeff and I'm David. I mean your you know, your your candor about both the issues we can front and also, you know some of the unanswered questions about the house. I want to walk, you know, kind of continue digging where Jeff was which is that you know, my slash our vantage point. I think at iron Advocate is that Jeff sort of hit the nail on the head with g at the end of the day many of the firms out there, you know, listen, they have to connect value and the bottom line to the resource. They expand whether it be toward Wellness or anything else and there's also a culture from all School up that like, well, there's just isn't it's not my time to be healthy, you know, like I'm a grown now, you know, I'm I'm willing to to be a lawyer, you know, this is you know, kind of a you know, the this is the lifestyle now the truth is without question that you are a better wage lawyer and Advocate when you exercise these practices and these other muscles, you know, mindfulness mind-body practice, you know meditation Etc. But again, how do we I want to ask specifically about the law students. How do we and and you started to touch upon maybe, you know bringing down outside people in because a lot of it has to do with the Next Generation, right? We can make some progress at the firm's but if we start training lawyers and sending them into the firm's and they ultimately become the partners with a different game. We're going to quote win the battle. So on on that on that beach hand, you know, how do you get through to that that law student to explain to them and I will make it personal wage that you know your closing argument. Okay, in in in this scenario will be better. If you know with the case, you already know upside down and inside out you find time the night before that closing off yoga to meditate. I promise you from personal experience that your presentation will be better and you'll manage the anxiety better. The anxiety is going to be there. You have to embrace it so long, how do we convince these all students that quite frankly these practices of mine is and wellness will help them win. Right? I think I think through everything we have discussed. I think it's it is it is going to continue to grow over time. I mean some of this is top-down you need to add any individual law school. You have to have a Dean who's committed to these issues you have to log Michael to you are willing to reinforce it in classes. They they may do you know could do a short stretching exercise at the meaning of class. They can do very brief breathing exercises. I know number of our faculty just here at our law school and others as well and you need to fold it into the conversation. It does go back to the you know, professional identity professional formation. It does go back to instilling and students that off as you suggested Bob. It's only going to serve them well, and then as you also pointed out it is generational to a degree as the students come through school hearing these messages and believed them. They are in the opportunity to start asking these questions when they're interviewing in law firms and a number of the students particularly successful ones who have opportunities multiple opportunities to interview. It is an excellent excellent space for them during an interview to be able to ask around work balance. What what is a law firm doing around well-being and so that the more that off For shendo, you know starts to rise in his heard. The law firms are moving from where would would we'll move from G. You know that can do they maybe we shouldn't be following up with him because he's asking questions and not being is there's something there to hearing this course, if every candidate asking for the same thing and saying I think we need to look inward. I think the law firm is not you know, we're not doing what we need to do. I remember that I had Beyond her about a year or so ago serving on a it was an afternoon of a be a round tables senior senior Partners from law firms to come together for a conference of a different type of the president has challenged us to take a couple of hours aside and talk about some of these issues and there was a partner at our table and said look we're trying to we're developing well being at our law firm and let me give you an example of what happened. I've got a couple of Associates on a team and a project that I'm working on and we were having a happy hour in this week. And so on the Tuesday the week I said, you're all coming to the happy hour, right? And it's yeah, we're coming we're coming and I wage. Happy hour that night and one of the associates showed up and but the other one didn't and I emailed him the next day and said you said you were going to come what happen and the service you didn't wrote back. I forgot my daughter had a soccer game. So I went to soccer game with her and the partner looked at me across the table and said and there you go. And there you go was we did everything we could as a law firm and this associate just decided to often spend time with their family and I had to do everything I could in my power to just kind of, you know, just resist what I wanted to say and instead said somewhat diplomatically. Well, that's one way to look at it in a way to look at it was you know part of being with family is the balance that we're all looking for and so some of that and I don't mean to you know, that's it to cast the game for that to be across the board but some of this we need to move from the notion that you know, this professional hazing, you know that I put in my sixty seventy hours a week and so that you have to chew has to give way to a dog Or compassionate kind of approach for this happening again. It's it's it's only going to help everybody at the end of the day, but it's going to take time we're getting there. I don't think I could have been having these conversations five seven years ago as across the board as I'm feeling it right now, but it's going to take time. It's going to take time right and and the and the mindset has to shift and I think that you're going to have to meet people where they are because you know saying to let's say trial lawyers like Bob and like me be more compassionate use mindfulness techniques when you're in the throes when you have your armor on when you have your sword drawn that is like throwing a it's like using a slingshot in a you know, in a modern in Modern Warfare, but it has to be a different message that meets folks who they are. And that's a that's a segue to my next question. So if if everything you want about legal education your vision came to fruition, what would that look like if you How would law students be educated differently and how would they I'm asking multiple questions, but I'll refine to one how would they come out of their law school experience looking different feeling different knowing something different than they do right now sure. I I don't have I don't have significant issues with with legal education writ large right there. You know, we could we could unpack and pick apart the Socratic method and how it affects certain individuals and we can talk about individuals who are introverts but very much want to practice in the law and some of the challenges that they have to overcome unique to them in that regard at the end of the day and and these are challenges and these are growth and some of this is again is just professional development. We all have you know, the issues that we have to overcome personal professional and everything else. the more a student can graduate self-aware both of their shortcomings and where their strengths are and also I mean, it sounds trite but aware of the world around them and compassionate about it. Right? I mean every every case in virtually every case that a student studies in school has human beings involved every case does and the more one can take that moment and say this was about Iraq is at the end of the day and it is about individuals at the end of the day. The more passion can come into the work. There's still work to be done. There's going to be a winner. There's going to be a loser that's part of the you know, the the zero-sum game the the quid pro whatever you want to call it and that has not happened, but it can be done with compassion. And so I think the students and I and and again in this is not inconsistent with students who are looking at, you know, grab that ring and go for the you know, the law firm the large law firms, you know, the big law and make lots of money. There's nothing wrong with that. It's not inconsistent at all. Those individuals will are still going to be fighting for clients. They still have an opportunity to serve the community. Whether it's pro bono or other work, but they need to my ideal would vision would be that every one of our students who graduates from every school has that that awareness that desire To help to be compassionate while they're doing the work. They're doing you can be you can be and it's one of the catch phrases. I know the firm has you can be merciless and what you're doing, but you can you can you can have compassion at the same time. They're not they're not mutually exclusive at the end of the day and that's I think that would be my you know, my kind of overwhelming Vision at the end. So David, let's land it with this question for you. If you could have all the students that you've advised and and taught over the years say one thing about you. What would that be? I was there for them when they needed me. I would say that I would like to believe that I've been here for my students as much as I can be there are not perfect, I got challenges I've had issues where students felt that I may have let them down. It's part of it's part of the process and even part of learning for me the fact that I've done it for so many years doesn't mean that I can't move or something. We have a large population. I work in one of the largest law schools in the country and one of our challenges is to be proactive as with any school and not to be simply waiting for your situation and look to address it. We have issues, you know these days we have issues around, you know systemic racism that exists nationally but issues can crop up in law schools. You may be sensitive to a constantly be a Learner in that regard of be mindful that there may be spaces and challenges that you still need to focus upon. But I you know if my academic Tombstone were going to age Be a carved. I hope it would say he was there for me when I needed him. Well said and and kind of Echoes the themes of of mentoring both having mentors mentoring others, which is a culture. We have to continue to wage fertilizing the law agree for the issues that we've discussed. Thanks. Thanks so much for being here. We really appreciate it. Absolutely. I I appreciate the two of you both both having met in the podcast you've been doing and looking to to create the space and continue to strengthen it. So I I thank you both intern. Thank you for joining us. We hope you've enjoyed this episode of iron Advocate off that you take what you've learned and integrated into your own personal practice. As always we leave you with a minute of mindfulness breathe in, breathe out and we'll see you next time. wow off off off off off

David Jaffe American University Washington Bob iron Advocate attorney Jeff partner Iraq Bob Levante Jeff mobile trial attorney associate dean main Camp Counseling Center soccer Bob Jermaine iron Advocate
Show 1160: How Good Is the Evidence for Cutting Salt?

People's Pharmacy

1:00:55 hr | 2 years ago

Show 1160: How Good Is the Evidence for Cutting Salt?

"This podcast of the people's pharmacy is brought to you by molecule M O L E K U L E for seventy five dollars off your first order visit molecule dot com. That's molecule with a K at checkout, enter the promo code, Joe J, O E. Health experts have been telling us for decades to cut back on salt. How strong is the science supporting this advice? This is the people's pharmacy with Terry. And Joe Graydon. Dr Aaron Carroll associate dean for research mentoring at Indiana University school of medicine says the scientific support behind drastically cutting salt is surprisingly weak. We don't have the evidence. We think we're know what we're talking about. We tell everyone what to do. No matter. How hard it is. Whether it's impossible, we see a clinical results. And then we wonder why no one wants to listen to us as physicians. It's really it's troubling coming up on the people spicy your calls and questions about standard, health recommendations and pain relievers. First this news. In the people's pharmacy health headlines a life threatening drug resistant, fungal infection is spreading around the country. The C D C is reporting outbreaks of Candida aureus in twelve states, New York, New jersey and Illinois have been especially hard hit the first case of c- Auras was detected in Japan a decade ago. No one had paid attention to it before because it wasn't causing any trouble. But once it became drug-resistant. It started to overwhelm people with impaired immunity three years ago. Seven cases were discovered in the US. Now, the CDC has confirmed that nearly six hundred individuals have been infected with Candida Auras, many of these patients had weakened immune systems and were hospitalized in such individuals. Who can't mount a strong immune response? The infection is often lethal researchers suspect that heavy use of agricultural. Decides may have contributed to the development of drug resistance by CR's and possibly some other fungal infections as well this parallels, the evolution of drug resistant bacteria, such as Mersa that evade the usual antibiotic treatments worldwide experts estimate that the annual death toll from such superbugs, including both bacteria and fungus may be as high as seven hundred thousand people because Candida or as has spread so quickly. We are likely to see more outbreaks in the near future. The FDA has just approved a new drug for us to you Perot sus that works differently than existing Medicare patients. Roma Sosa will be sold under the brand name. Vanity this injectable monoclonal antibody actually builds bone. Unlike many prior medications that work primarily by slowing bone breakdown. The FDA has only approved a vanity for postmenopausal women who are very high risk. Of bone fracture. There will be a black box warning that the drug can increase the risk for cardiovascular complications such as heart attacks and strokes less worrisome side effects include injection site reactions joint pain, and headaches vanity is injected once a month for twelve months after that patients will likely need to switch to a different osteoporosis drug to maintain bone density. One analyst predicts the cost will be approximately six hundred dollars a month. Her do whitening strips make your teeth so white and sparkley the active ingredient is hydrogen, peroxide. Well known as a bleaching product. Unfortunately, it might not be healthy for teeth. Scientists presented research demonstrating that hydrogen peroxide can damage the Dentin layer of teeth that lies just below the animal in extracted teeth, hydrogen peroxide can break down the college in the Denton dentists are not convinced. However that this. Is a problem in everyday use lower back. Pain is common end debilitating. It's estimated that eighty percent of adults will experience this distressing condition sometime during their lives physicians often recommend non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs. Like ibuprofen. Naproxen to ease the pain excruciating back. Spasms may also be treated with opioids end or muscle relaxants, exercise and physical therapy or other frequent recommendations many doctors have been somewhat ambivalent about spinal manipulation. But a new study shows that this type of treatment can be highly effective. The researchers analyzed forty seven studies that included over nine thousand adults spinal manipulation was as effective as end sets pain medicines and exercise the investigators urged medical doctors to consider chiropractic and other forms of spinal manipulation for lower back pain new research. Does that gum disease might join the list of risk factors that could increase your chance of developing Alzheimer's disease? Scientists compared brain samples from autopsies of people with Alzheimer disease and people have similar ages without the brain condition distinctive DNA from poor fair Ramona's Jinja Velez bacteria, responsible for Perry. Odom, Titus was more common in the Alzheimer affected. Brains p Jinja Vallas produces bacterial toxins known as ginger pints. That were also present in these brains. The investigators then conducted experiments in mice that showed PG develops moves readily from the mouth to the brains regular, brushing lossing and periods visits with dental hygienist can help keep Jinja valley's under control, and that's the health news from the people's firm. See this. Welcome to the people's pharmacy. I'm Joe Graydon. I'm affirma- college issed. And I'm Terry Graydon. I'm a medical anthropologist today. We're discussing the health news that matters to you. And we're talking about evidence. Everyone has heard that high cholesterol is problematic, especially so-called, bad LDL cholesterol. But Ken LDL, go to go. We'll talk about that little later. I how good is the evidence for salt restricted diet to find out we turn to Dr Aaron Carroll. He is a professor of pediatrics and associate dean for research mentoring at Indiana University school of medicine, he's a regular contributor to the New York Times feature the upshot Dr carols most recent book is the bad food bible how and why to eat simply welcome back to the people's pharmacy. Doctor Aaron Carol, thank you very much. Dr. So when I was a kid, I remember my momma going on a salt restriction phase. This is a woman who loved to put salt in her chicken soup and most other things, but she had heard that salt was bad for you and the salt shaker disappeared from the table if you'll pardon my saying, so chicken soup isn't worth eating without salt. No time to think of almost any soup that would be good without salt. It's just hard to imagine. So fast forward forty fifty sixty years. And you know, we have the American Heart Association, basically, telling the world, soft bad for you. Gotta get it down to fifteen hundred milligrams of sodium day, which is not very much. No, it's not much at all. You know, what this is one of those things where we know that too much of something very very bad for you. And then we start to believe that because of that then less would be good. And then we. Carrie, it's twits, natural conclusion. None would be perfect. The problem is that nothing in life is ever that simple. So there's a fairly decent amount of evidence that people who consume high amounts of sodium. And to also have high blood pressure can see improvements in their health by reducing the amount of salt. They're eating from something very high to less than that. That's great. The problem is that we've been just pushing it further and further down. So we get to the point where you know, one group you'll have the FDA sink two point three grams a day, and then you have the WHO that says, no it should be too. And you'll have the American Heart Association say one point five when there's almost no evidence at all that these very low salt diets are good for us. In fact, there's some observational evidence that they might be bad for us. I think we want to hear more about that. But I talked to Carol when you say high amounts of salt can be harmful. How? Hi is high. I mean, there are studies of people who who are consuming more than seven grams a day, or, you know, even let's say more than six grams a day, and so one of the big studies that links to the fact that perhaps low salt diets might be bad for us was a big study in the New England Journal medicine a couple years ago that looked at salt consumption and excretion in many countries throughout the world, and then looked at its effects. I mean, it's relationship both with bad cardiovascular outcomes, like heart attacks and also with death, and they found that. Yes. People consume like seven grams a day or more have higher rates of heart attacks and death than people who are consuming somewhere between three and six and it's important to understand that the average American probably consumes about three and a half grams of salt today. But what they also found was the people who consume very low salt diet s-. You know, let's say let's say less than two had the highest rates of cardiovascular events and death in that they had higher events higher events than people. Who are consuming more than seven, but certainly more than people were consuming three to six the natural argument is that will be perhaps people who were sick or told to reduce their salt intake are in that low group, and they're the ones that got sick and died, but the lot of these types studies take that into account and actually enroll people in check to see whether they have heart disease were issues before they enter the study before they follow them. And it just says that hey, consuming, very low salt diets put you on almost the same category risk as the people who consume more than seven. Now, I'm not necessarily saying that's proof that low salt diets caused these events, but it should certainly give us pause because we don't have a lot of good evidence that these very low salt diets are good for us. And so if you have some evidence that they're bad for us, and no evidence that they're very good for us. Then maybe we should stop pushing. No, so hard and focus our attention on where it should be the people who are consuming very high levels of sodium to try to get them more into the. Normal mid range. I'm trying to imagine what it would be like to consume six to seven grams of sodium day, I'm thinking you'd have to eat like five pretzels loaded with salt, you'd have to have potato chips you'd you'd probably have to know e you also have to eat soup out of a can processed foods. And then you'd have to be shaken the the salt shaker like crazy. Ironically enough in the salt shaker is is not where most people get their sodium as we just sort of push towards it's in processed foods. The problem is that Saudi has put into almost everything that we eat that is prepared for by someone else. And so most sodium, you're getting is in stuff other people made for you the stuff that you make for yourself. And then absolute to is is not the issue. And so I'm always sort of baffled by people who will consume a fast, food, diet, all these prepared processed foods, but then panic. About you know, what they might shake over at the end anyone who cooks knows that salts essential to making food tastes good. But that's not where most people are getting their the people who are getting the seven grams plus a day, it's from processed foods from stuff that's already been prepared. And that's where they could do a lot better. But I would say it's not as hard to get to seven grams as you'd think if you're eating fast food, if you're again eating a lot of processed foods because it snuck in there. But if you're cooking for yourself than getting to seven grams becomes much more difficult and most people probably aren't there. Now, Dr Carol most physicians most of your colleagues, especially your cardiology colleagues would say, well, yeah, maybe the data isn't so great when it comes to the average person, but there's one category of patients that absolutely has to be on a low, sodium diet, and those are the folks with congestive. Heart failure, so heart failures when to be blunt, your heart just can't pump enough blood to the rest of the body five and a half six million people in the United States, probably haven't high blood pressure can often lead to heart failure because it's harder for your heart to pump against that high pressure, which makes it weaker over time and to treat it usually we tried to give you drugs that will strengthen your heart or by reducing the volume of your blood either through diarrhea or trucks, reduce volume or by restricting salt intake, but the ladder, and which is often pushed believe me has unbelievably small amounts of evidence behind it. There was a study recently published I think it was in JAMA internal medicine researcher searched for all randomized controlled trials that looked at reducing sodium intake to treat heart failure. And in all of the medical literature. They can only find nine studies and one of them was only published in abstract form. So you can not even really review it. We're talking about less than five. Five hundred patients who've ever been studied for this randomized control trials. None of the studies were big enough to involve one hundred patients, and none of them were of good quality or low bias and an all of this. There was really no data that showed that salt restriction would lower either mortality or cardiac disease. It wouldn't affect whether you get admitted to the hospital it wouldn't change. How long you'd stay in the hospital. If you were admitted, and there was an editorial written by Dr CLYDE Yancy who's cardiologists northwestern school of medicine, and he noted that only point three percent of all of the studies that have looked at sodium restriction at heart failure were of decent quality to be included in this review. This is I mean, it's maddening. I mean, the idea that this is all we've got and based on this. We have made widespread recommendations on what people should do with their diets. And we do this far too often. We we don't. Have the evidence. We think we're know what we're talking about. We tell everyone what to do. No matter. How hard it is or whether it's impossible we see clinical results. And then we wonder why no one wants to listen to us as physicians. It's really it's troubling. Dr Carol why have your colleagues really grabbed onto this advice? If the evidence is so shockingly thin. So I mean part of it is that again, I think is part of it is extrapolation. We do have some evidence again that for people who consume large amounts of salt, reducing their salt can improve some factors in their lives. And so so be it. That's what we know. We also know for the same vein, really high cholesterol levels are bad. And that if we can get people to lower the cholesterol, that's good. We also know that you know, if people consume too much fat enormous amounts of perhaps learn the problem is that we keep extrapolating it down down down to store. We start telling people who are consuming perhaps an average amount of these things still need to eat less because less. It would be better. But there's diminishing return. We don't see these kinds of benefits at the low end. They're really not studied. We'd just assumed they're there, and and we don't we just we just make recommendations that aren't based. Unfortunately, I'm good eminence deca, Carol. Are there any strong evidence based recommendations for people with heart failure are there things they can and should be doing that will help them. All again, if you are consuming, huge amounts of sodium, I would take your doctor's recommendation to reduce it and try to consume less there. Also, some evidence that increasing potassium intake might be a benefit often because it helps lower sodium in the blood. There's also some evidence that high fiber diets might make a difference, and we'd probably be better off trying to push more for more holistically well, balanced diets like the Mediterranean Dieter the dash diet, which both also been associated with Lawrence aren't failure. I should caution that these are still not well-studied randomized controlled trials, but it's. Often easier to stick to a better food diet plan in general, take the Mediterranean diet as an example, then to just follow one hard to to to accomplish go like, no, sodium, again, a little salt is what makes some healthy foods taste good. If you force everyone to eat bland boiled vegetables. No one will. But if you allow them to saute them in a little bit of butter, and then had a little bit of salt to make it then they might eat the vegetables, and we might wind up with people who are eating better overall. If we weren't so restrictive about individual things than just making these pronouncements that no-one can stick to Dr Aaron Carol. Thank you so much for talking with us on the people's pharmacy today anytime you've been listening to Dr Aaron Carroll professor of pediatrics and associate dean for research mentoring at Indiana University school of medicine is book is the bad food bible how and why to eat in fully. And we invite you to join the conversation. Our lines are open at eight eight eight four seven to three three six six have you cut back on salt? We'd like to hear from you again that number eight eight eight four seven to thirty three sixty six. You're listening to the people's pharmacy with Joe and Terry Graydon. The people's pharmacy is brought to you in part by molecule M O L E K U L E molecule has completely reinvented air purification with new technology that destroys indoor air pollutants molecule by molecule molecules air. Purifier uses photo electrochemical oxidation nanotechnology to completely remove malt bacteria, viruses, airborne, chemicals and other allergens from the air by eliminating them. It might be hard to remember during policies, and but pollens not the only problem that causes allergic reactions tiny protein particles that escape off the pollen caused the most serious reactions and these can slip right through most air-filters molecules special technology eliminates these bits of protein. 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Around the country, a brand new experience for seventy five dollars off your initial order. Visit 'em oh, L E K U L, E dot com. That's molecule with a K when you check out enter the promo code, Joe J, O E. Welcome back to the people's pharmacy. I'm Joe grading. And I'm Terry Graydon if you would like to purchase a CD of this show, you can call eight hundred seven three two two three three four. It's shown number one thousand one hundred sixty you can also place that order online at our website people sperm ac- dot com. The people's pharmacy is brought to you in part by Verizon an analytical laboratory, providing home health tests for hormones, gut health and the micro bio online at V E R, I S A N A dot com today, we're talking about scientific evidence and some unexpected findings. We just heard from Dr Aaron Carroll that there's surprisingly little data to support the kind of extreme recommendations on salt that the American Heart Association. The American college of cardiology and the FDA all make how do you feel when you hear that conventional wisdom isn't necessarily based on science? You can join the conversation. Our lines are open at eight eight eight four seven to three three six six. You can Email us radio at people's pharmacy dot com or again, you can join the conversation at eight eight eight four seven to thirty three sixty six and Terry. There's another fascinating article in the news this week. And it's all about LDL cholesterol. We've been told for quite a few decades, that's the bad cholesterol. And you can't get it. Too low. We have a cardiologists friend who used to say, you can't have to Loa golf score or too low a cholesterol level. Well, he might be right about golf. I don't know. But he's deaf. Right about golf. You could have two low ago score by doing it the way I do you never play golf. But if you wanna win Goff you have to have a low score. However, it turns out that you can indeed have too low and LDL cholesterol, the women's health. Studies showed that women whose LDL cholesterol was under seventy actually are at higher risk about twice the risk for a hemorrhagic stroke now bleeding, strokes hemorrhagic strokes are not at all common. So the absolute risk probably isn't very high. Nonetheless, it still troublesome that you're at twice as much risk as if you're then you would be if your LDL cholesterol were a little bit higher. We don't have the evidence for men. I don't know whether it's any different for for men or maybe the number would be slightly. Different. There is some epidemiology. But, you know, this women's health study involved twenty eight thousand women, and they were followed for almost twenty years. And the researchers who did this study are highly regarded, Julie bearing and Dr Paul rigor he is one of the country's leading cardiologists. He was in charge of what was known as the Jupiter trial, which showed inflammation is important in heart disease as Kress store or Rosa Suva. Staten was the Staten that was involved in that study. They are very well respected. Researchers exactly and they are reporting. This doubling not that thirty percent not fifty percent, but doubling affect on hemorrhagic stroke. Now, the Japanese Japanese have been reporting this for actually many decades suggesting that if your LDL cholesterol, or your total cholesterol for that matter is very very low. There is. An increased risk of hemorrhagic stroke bleeding, stroke, dangerous, kind of stroke now, the the women's health study didn't show a connection between total cholesterol and stroke risk, but it did show connection with triglycerides. So if your triglycerides are very low, it also showed that your double the risk of a hemorrhagic stroke. So really we're talking about Goldilocks here. You don't wanna be too high for sure, and that's where most Americans are you don't wanna be too low you try and hit the sweet spot. How do you deal with such unanticipated results? The number to call to ask a question or share your experiences. Eight eight eight four seven to three three six six. You can Email us radio at people's pharmacy dot com. Again, do you find this kind of data alarming disquieting or maybe it doesn't surprise you at all? Again, you can. Join our conversation at eight eight eight four seven to thirty three sixty six. Well, we go to apex and talk to Doug about his low salt diet. Hi, doug. Oh, jerry. I can certainly tell you. How do I feel any and it's inherent? I feel because I have a very rare kidney condition called never genyk diabetes and syphilis I have had it from birth internet nutshell for the layman out there. I can see two three gallons of liquid day. So not only do I consume a lot. But I p really if if I could say that on the air, so in terms of my sodium intake, I look at it as I try to keep it right around fifteen hundred milligrams steal it. If I go up in two thousand twenty five hundred I guess, I'm at the top end of my range, but beyond that if I started to consume foods like pizza, highly processed foods believe me, I can really feel it and as a fifty year old male who is sixty three inches. That'd be fine foot three for those people out there. At one thirty five. I really don't need that extra added water. Wait. No. And I assume Doug that you have adapted to this low salt diet, and it doesn't bother your taste buds at all. In fact, I'm in. I'm guessing that if you if you need a lot of salt, it tastes terrible. Exactly, exactly. And I I kind of approach in from from a a taste point of view. Then actually for me. I think a lot of food. We I don't need a lot of salts because there's obviously morally occurring civil right? And and Doug, I I would say that. It's very good that you have learned how to how did manage your condition and your situation. And of course, a really low salt diet makes a huge amount of sense for you, especially since you can feel the difference. And because you have a rare condition, so, you know, obviously, everyone is different. And each situation is going to require adjustment. We go to Conway, South Carolina. Katrina, welcome to. The people's pharmacy. Hi, katrina. I quit eating regular tasers probably on nineteen ninety eight ninety nine when the dot started talking to me about my career. I'm now six two, and I still don't have my husband has really so I have the no solve that. I purchased from under from over the county. No what about right then. Actually, I had my head to have my thyroid made. And after that, I I started reading some information that says, no not having regular table salt. Apologised? I'm really to go bad. And that was. Now on medication, and I heard anything read anything soon. So yes, let's talk about that a little bit police Katrina so table salt in the United States is fortified with iodine to make sure that everybody gets enough. I died not too much but enough and the reason for that is that I dine is essential for the thyroid function. So it's it's very unlikely that using the alternate salt that you were using the low salt actually is part salt and part potassium iodide. So you weren't depriving your body of the iodine that it needs doesn't need very much just a tiny bit. And I don't think that that would have led to the condition. Whatever condition it was that caused the doctors to say you need to have your thyroid removed military, the idea of using some salts that. Don't have dine could be a problem, especially if people stick to that for an extended period of time, for example, we have an Email here from Latisha who wanted to know if the boutique salts like, Himalayan salt, they're different. Well, let's go to Stanton Virginia because that is the question from Dr is it Kalina Kalana? Loria? Yeah. Dr Kalana you have a question about salt. Hi, yes. I Mike question is a lot of my patients. They see salting is very safe. Can you tell me if your daddy save? Well, Dr Calera if the if they are using sea salt exclusively, then no they're not getting the iodine that they might need. Now in Stanton Virginia, your patients may or may not be getting any seafood and seafood is another good source of iodine, but Stanton's kinda Fum not right on the coast. And consequently, some of your patients might not be getting the iodine they need we we. The salt itself as salt is. Yeah. I mean, it salt. It's sodium chloride and the sea salt has maybe a few interesting impurities that give it a better flavor. Texture might be more aesthetically appealing. But it's not any it's not superior detail salt, and it won't have any iodine. Right. Thank you, Dr Columbia. Let's go to Bill in Fort Worth Texas about L P a lipid not being tested for. What's what does this question about Bill? Oh, it would help. If I it would help if I if I click the button sorry about that Bill. We missed what you said. Hi, I love your program. Thank you say had a heart attack back in two thousand eight and I did a lot of research on that throw throw SIS, and I found out that there is a lipid called LT. Little a that almost no doctors know about and no one tests for and it is a significant cardiac risk factor, and what I found out that that not even statins can lower it, and it I think was a contributory cause in my heart attack. I did find that Linus Pauling has a protocol with massive doses of vitamin c l lysine and pro lane that is significantly can reduce the stress that the risk of this problem in the arteries. I wondered if you knew anything about it or any of your other callers did as well. Who do I have to tell you? I've been interested in. LP little a for probably three decades. And you're right. As far as I can tell statins do not lower L P little a I don't know of any pharmaceuticals that do and I do think it is a risk factor for heart disease. I it's hard to compare. How does L LP little a compare to LDL cholesterol? How does it compare to total cholesterol? How does it compare to try glycerin is I don't know that we have a clear roadmap to say L P little a is like the worst lipid fraction. But I do think it's a risk factor. And I agree with you. I don't think very many people get tested for it. And I think it's important. I'll have to look into the Linus Pauling protocol. Thank you for sharing that we really appreciate it. Yeah. Said that vitamin c deficiency. Actually, compromises the endothelium. That probably is true. I don't know that very many Americans are vitamin c deficient. However, you know, what's very interesting about what Bill just said was the endothelium. Now, that's the lining of the blood vessels. Right. And the article that was just published about LDL cholesterol, being, you know. If. LDL cholesterol causes bleeding strokes hemorrhagic strokes, or at least contributes to them. What's the mechanism and Terry? One of the theories is that when elp LDL cholesterol gets too low below seventy it may cause a compromise of that endothelial tissue that that one cell lining of the of the blood vessels, the interior, and that may make it more vulnerable to what they call micro aneurysms. And that may ultimately to the hemorrhage stroke losing, the integrity of those, bud. Vests asinine getting stuff, shall we? Go to Dallas, Texas and talk to Theodore hype Theodore. I really enjoyed your program today. And specially like Dr carols talk. I think he's very saying. And I've been in natural health into my twenties and aid a like a makers diet. My mother was Jewish cook. And chicken soup, and she was we always had meals as a family and the atmosphere around the meal was very important. I find I'm seventy two years old intimate. Very good health. And I find the attention on all medical jargon and could be counterproductive. Mitch Moore needs to be put much more. Attention needs to be put on stress and stress people are under in the modern world, and how much they worry needlessly about things that are not going to happen. And I I would also add how much they eat because we eat way too much, and we eat too much of the wrong things. But I think the doors point is important that I think an important part of the Mediterranean diet is people are sitting down eating meals taking their time enjoying each other's company. Thank you so much for the call. Theodore we really appreciate it, Terry shoe Goto. Steve in Dallas, Texas. Hi, steve. What's on your mind? Doing terry. I hate to be fun furry in my cardiologists beyond Feis or the diet. Oh, how interesting why? I was house with allies about a year ago, and they found that I have apparently on common afford or is via and I also saw for more of static hypertension, and we're to static hypertension is when you stand up suddenly you feel weak and sometimes you fall over. So that's very interesting that with your arrhythmia and with your or so static, hypertension, low blood pressure. What they've done is. They've said you need to have more, sodium, sir. You're not a contrarian. Steve. That's quite interesting. And probably makes a whole lot of sense, Terry. Don't you think most likely I think that Steve's doctor is paying attention to Steve's condition, and Joey have an Email from Ralph says tell us what a gram of sodium is in normal American talk. Well, two point three grams is about a teaspoon. So a Graham is about little less than half a teaspoon in normal American. Okay. Yeah. And you know, nobody is actually measuring how much sodium there is in the prepared food that they eat, but it's hidden in there, and it can cause an awful lot of trouble. Now, we are coming up on a break. And when we come back, we're going to talk with one of the leading experts on the FDA's adverse event reporting system. He'll share some surprising results about commonly prescribed drugs for pain. Have you ever taken Gabba, Penton or Lyrica share your experience? Our lines are open at eight eight eight four seven to three three six six. You can Email us radio at people's pharmacy dot com. You're listening to the people's pharmacy with Joe and Terry Graydon. This people's pharmacy podcast is brought to you in part by Verizon dot com. There is on a lab offers home health tests that allow you to monitor your hormones and health conditions. You can take control of the quantitative assessment of your health and learn about male and female hormone balance, the stress hormone cortisol leaky, gut gluten intolerance, or your gut microbiome take a more active role in tracking your health and take twenty percent off your first order of a male intesting opportunity with the discount code people. That's upper case P E O P L E to learn more, go to various Saana dot com. That's V E R. I S A N A dot com. Welcome back to the people's pharmacy. I'm Joe green. And I'm Terry Graydon if you'd like to purchase a CD of this show, you can call eight hundred seven three two two three three four. It's show. Number one thousand one hundred sixty you can also find it online at people sperm, see duck. The people's pharmacy is brought to you in part by Kaya -biotics probiotic products made in Germany from certified organic ingredients. That's K A Y A -biotics dot com. Now or still on the topic of evidence. But now we're turning to adverse drug effects to medicines that are widely prescribed for nerve pain and pain in general, Joe are gab Penton end pre gabbling also known as Narain and Lyrica for more information on the side effects of these medications. We turn to Tom Moore. He is a senior scientist with the nonprofit institute for safe medication practices, and he's a lecture at George Washington University school of public health. Welcome back to the people's pharmacy. Tom more. The pleasure to be here. -tarian Joe, Tom you are one of the country's leading experts on tracking adverse drug events through the food and drug administration's reporting system. Can you tell us a little bit about what it is? You do what it is that quarter watch does. And and what what the whole point of the exercises about. Well, Joe, I'm project director of a quarterly publication. We call quarter watch and every quarter. We look at all the adverse events are reported to the food and Drug administration. That's like a million a year and we look for signals of emerging drug risks. Well, the most recent quarter watch had some very interesting observations, and in particular, a category of drugs that I don't think people realize prescribed in in the kind of quantities that they are. And so I let just start with this idea of neurotransmitters. I mean, people have heard about serotonin in Prozac, and they've heard about dopamine, and they've heard about something called nor epinephrine, but most people have never heard of something called gab and amino acid. What is it? Why is it important? And why should we care about drugs like gab, Penton and pre gabbling? Well, Joe if there's anyone neuro transmitter that your readers ought to know about and probably do in some fashion. It's Gabba because they are found in about one third of all the little synoptic connections in your brain. And. It's the Downer. It is the inhibitor that opposes stimulus which comes from down other circuits. So how'd you know about Gaba? Well, alcohol connects with Gabba anti anxiety drugs like Zadek or presume connect with Gabba. So this is a suppressor or inhibitor function in the brain. And this particular family of drugs in our latest quarter. Watch our called gab analogs. They are synthetic versions of this new transmitter. How frequently are drugs like Gabba Penton or pre gabbling known as Lyrica dispensed in this country. How many people take them when we look this up? We were shocked gab analogs are taken by ten million adults. Gab Penton itself is the second most widely used psychoactive drug of all of them outnumbered only by vicodin, which is a seed minute hydro code on. So what are they prescribed for? Gab Penton itself has three very small approved medical uses. It's used as an add on drug for certain forms of seizures, for example. But it turns out that it's being used and thrown into cocktails of every possible kind. What else are these drugs approved for beside seizures. Well, they're IKA is also approved for certain sorts of pain diabetic pain, for example. Well, I'm guessing that with all of the opioid concerns, and indeed we do have an opioid epidemic in this country that a lot of physicians are looking for alternatives and one of those alternatives for nerve pain in particular would be the what we call the Gabba analogs or the gab pent Nord. So a lot of people millions of people are taking drugs, like gabum, Penton or Lyrica for nerve pain. Whether it's diabetic nerve pain, or whether it's some other kind of nerve pain, and what's the problem? Well, the problem is that it probably doesn't work for most of those types of pain. It is used in their articles and other prestigious medical journals pointing out that physicians are using this drug. Indiscriminately, just tossing it into pain medication or they want. They don't want to use an opioid. And so they toss this in with drug like, I've you profile non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug are they being prescribed with opioids as well. Well, that's the problem, which is when we looked at again, these numbers are just amazing. Thirty two percent of these patients were also regularly taking an opioid. So what we see in? This date is not so much being substituted to opioid but being added to opioids and what's the problem? The problem is lethal overdoses now the use of these drugs. Whether it's gap Penton or pre gabbling has really gone up rather dramatically over the last decade, or so why do you think they're so popular? Well, it's a sad story. The sad story Joe. Is that at a depressant drugs and our drugs for pain. Truthfully. Don't work very well have a lot of drawbacks including addiction. And so what's happening is people are not satisfied people with chronic pain. Have a real problem on their hands. Finding a drug that works for them. And so here's this drug that just sorta got a reputation that it didn't deserve for possibly helping. And so doctors are just adding this to other cocktails of drugs that didn't work particularly. Well, what are the side effects of drugs like Gabba, Penton or pre gaveling? Well, they're three big ones. One is there are withdrawal effects. And so there are rift drawl affects headache, nausea, all the withdrawal effects. We would see for for example with with opiates. Secondly, especially when added other drugs it results in various sorts of mental impairment, confusion, falls and Thirdly, the big problem is depressing. Central nervous system, you add this another drug this depressing. The central nervous system, and you go too far and you're did. Tom. How would you suggest the FDA handle Gabba pinton? We were shocked to discover that number one despite its withdrawal and potentially addictive qualities. It's not a scheduled drug now Lyrica is it's not in fact, you can buy a month's supply for twelve dollars at your local pharmacy. So clearly they need to reexamine that. Secondly, we need some policies to we need some policies and programs to prevent indiscriminate use of this and drug cocktails of sometimes five or eight drugs because sadly physicians and patients are not saying the response they wanted. So Tom more a lot of the use associated with gabum Penton in particular is what is referred to as off label unapproved uses. How would you like to see physicians and patients deal with these kinds of problems when there is not clear FDA approval for use in certain kinds of pain situations. Well, I have three thoughts. Joe, I we have to realize that drug that might be valuable valuable in some settings is dangerous harmful or worthless and other settings and if you want candidate number one, it's gab Penton, number two, both physicians and patients should realize that this is a fairly risky drug, and you wouldn't want to just throw it into your regime with other drugs and hopes that it might do something because it might do something. But it might do something that's harmful and Thirdly, I guess we all have to be realistic about the fact that we have some real imitations on all of the drugs that we have a very common conditions, like depression, like chronic pain. Tom more. Thank you so much for talking with us on the people's pharmacy today. Joe and Terry it's been a pleasure to be here. Even listening to Tom more senior scientist with the nonprofit institute for safe medication practices. S M P. He's also a lecturer at George Washington University school of public health. Have you ever taken a Penton or pre gabbling how well did it work to control your pain? Did you experience any side effects? Give us a call with your questions or your story are lines are open at eight four seven to three three six six. You can send us an Email radio people's pharmacy dot com. We can also be reached through Twitter or at people's pharmacy again that number eight eight eight four seven to thirty three sixty six time. More mentioned that the indications that if DA has approved for both. Gabum? Pinton and pre gabbling are pretty limited. And really the most of the ten million people who are taking one or the other of these drugs are taking them for something other than what the FDA approved it for. So the question is how well does it work for these off label uses a couple of weeks ago in gem internal medicine. Especial communication was published in the I love this their favorite category. Less is more a clinical overview of off label use of Gabba pinton, OI drugs, and I have to tell you that basically what they say is the evidence is not good for these medications being used for general pain, non diabetic neuropathy and lots of other things to the phones. Terry and talk to Lisa we said, welcome to the people's pharmacy. What's your experience with gabum Penton? So my experience is not an oral pill, but a cream header surgery on an ankle and had just a lot of inflammation, and you know, like nervy pain. And so was giving a this was like, maybe two thousand twelve thousand thirteen and we've given cream that has a Gabar ten in Hemi and a muscle relaxes. And I think it had I've been proferred as well. And it was a topical and it worked great, and I held onto last bottle of it and a couple of years after that I had tendinitis an album and the nerve pain. There was awful. And I used it for that as well. And it worked great when it was back to the doctor to ask if I could get more that you know, for the elbow. They said that they you know, didn't own anything about it. Didn't know anybody that would formulate something like that. But that was you know, if we can't forever problems giving it orally. Why can't we be topically will part of the problem? Of course, Lisa is that we don't have the evidence. We're really glad it worked well for you. But we don't have evidence that it would work for other people. What's so fascinating about this? Cocktail Lisa is that at ketamine in Terry. Can you imagine? So here's ketamine, which is officially a an anesthetic just got a new drug approval for a chemical cousin s ketamine as a nasal spray to treat depression. But as far as I know there is very little data to support the use of topical ketamine as a painkiller. No. This is a good analgesic, and it might work great. But I don't think we have much evidence. And and I have seen other. Compounded creams with Gabon pinton in them, for example. And we just don't have. We don't have good studies to show. Yes. This is exactly what you should be doing after ankle surgery or for tendonitis. We don't know if you for the call Lisa aggravating, really interesting, Terry. Let's go to Tampa, Florida, please. And talk to Chris. Hi, chris. We understand that. You're a veteran. Hi, diane. Thank you for taking my call today. Yes, sir. What's your experience with Gabon Penton? I was prescribed at the VA to help with my pain. I have several her needs to disc from an injury and the navy and they had given me that in Milwaukee Cam. And what I found that works for me. Is it just give me three three hundred milligram pills? A day. Just take the one at night 'cause it makes me tired, right? And I don't take them to him anymore. Just take to what is elite rent naproxen. It. It really helps. It really helps that don't have as much of the shooting pains that used to have I'm still hoping to get surgery, but I'm trying to put it off for the surgery. No more about surgery because right now Baxter through is really not a good experience for a lot of people. Right. And and Chris it does seem to have some real benefit for what we call neuro genyk or neuropathic pain. And it sounds like that's what you're dealing with nerve pain. And that is certainly an approved use for Gabba Penton. Thank you for your call. Bye bye. And let's go to Pittsburgh, high n welcome to the people's pharmacy. What's your experience with is it pre gabbling Lyrica? My doctor said I possibly had no opera fee, but I have no diabetes. He gave me Lyrica. First of all, it's very expensive seven hundred dollars for whatever it is about. I don't know a hundred of these bills. It did. Absolutely nothing for me. The side effect was dizziness side effect. Was equilibrium. I stopped taking it. And now, I'm fighting this dizziness and equilibrium. And I hope I can get that under control. But I tell people don't buy Lyrica because it does absolutely nothing. It doesn't decrease. I have a little bit of pain in my feet in my soul to my seat. But it's not neuropathy. Your experience is not unusual. Some people don't get benefit and do experience the dizziness that you mentioned, and we we don't want to suggest that everybody fits into that category. Because there are some people Terry who do get relief from Lyrica from nerve pain. Well, primarily diabetic neuropathy the evidence on non diabetic neuropathy is not good. Exactly. It's not that. They're that. It says it doesn't work at all. But it there's not much evidence that it does work one last call. I think Joe Laura in Huntington, West Virginia, welcome to the people's pharmacy. What's your experience? Have taking the pin for five five years. Now, I'm dick to give a pin. It can be very multi discontinue. It's it's not like you're getting high. So we wanna make sure that you people don't get the misinterpretation that you become addicted to it and you're getting high on it. But it's very hard to stop. And I don't think people realize that there is a discontinuation syndrome with gab Penton, and you have to face off very gradually. Yes. And that not all doctors are aware of that. And so they don't necessarily help their patients go as grant tapers gradually as they they might need to exactly where we didn't get to some of the other news, Terry, I feel bad about that. See or was in the news. This a fungal infection. This sort of been sweeping the nation and slam these scary. It has developed resistance to fund your Seidel drugs. That's right. Well, that's all the time. We have thank you so much for listening and for calling in your stories. We wanna thank our guest today. Dr Aaron Carroll of Indiana University school of medicine and Tom more of the institute for safe medication practices. Lindsey produced. Today's show panel Albert at provided technical assistance, Jenny Lawson provided engineering the people's pharmacy is produced at the studios of North Carolina public radio W UNC that people's pharmacy. Theme music is by BJ Liederman to order today's show you can call eight hundred seven three two two three three four today show is one thousand one hundred sixty that number again, eight hundred seven thirty to twenty three thirty four or at our website people's pharmacy dot com. And when you go to this site, you can tell us what you thought about the show or sign up for our free online newsletter. Subscribe to the free podcast of the show when you sign up for the newsletter. You'll also get our free eagle-eyed to favorite home remedies. And if you listen to the podcast, we'd be grateful for a review in Durham, North Carolina. I'm Joe, greedy. And I'm Terry Graydon. Thank you so much for listening. Please join us again next week.

Terry Graydon Pain FDA Dr Aaron Carroll Joe Tom Moore Indiana University school of m Penton United States Doctor Aaron Carol American Heart Association Lyrica Gab Penton associate dean for research Joe J diabetic neuropathy Joe Graydon Doug
How to find an emotionally rewarding career | Ep. 122

The ROI Podcast

27:16 min | 1 year ago

How to find an emotionally rewarding career | Ep. 122

"Those that find their passion stick to it and work hard in any in a realistic about work ethic that is going to earn a paycheck to pay the bills. That grittiness is the key to a work. Life that is emotionally rewarding. Welcome to another episode of the Roi podcast presented by the Indiana University. Kelley School of business. I'm your host Matt. Martel joined by Associate Dean Phil Powell here on the show as you know. Our mission is to help organizations make better business decisions and we want to do this in a number of ways. We WanNa make sure you get the best resources available in real time as well as get you access to some of our faculty or give you an avenue to get someone you know as a guest on our show so if any of these interest you send us an email to. Roi pod that's Roi P. O. D. at I dot. Edu there you can pitch us against you can ask us a question you're wrestling with or you can send a question one of our faculty and will be. We will work hard to get back with you in a short time. So this episode. We thought it'd be fun to do something a little bit different as you know. This podcast has been on the air since two thousand seventeen. I don't think there's been an episode where we were able to kind of go behind the microphone. A little bit and get to know one of our hosts Phil Apollo Phil. I just thought it'd be so fun to learn about you. Your story Your Leadership Style and kind of your journey. What you've learned up to this point especially being one who's been in so many of these episodes in in getting to hear so many more leadership principles to see what's out there. So let's let's go back to the beginning of of your journey. How you got here into Econ into higher ed of all places and I want to start with you know that that beginning moment where things started to click for you. That economics was the focus. Sure you know I knew in high school that I wanted to do something to change the world right. I think a lot of your seventeen or eighteen. You want to have an impact and you know like a lot of people. I was gravitated toward this this concept of public service. And how do you do something bigger than yourself in uplifting communities uplifting those around you especially addressing the issue of poverty so I went to the University of South Carolina I wanted? I had a real attraction to the developing world the emerging markets that were out there and this was Nineteen Ninety early nineteen nineties and I imagine international relations. I figured well that's learn how people resolve problems in this type of thing. And that's what I'll do an economics minor to explain how the world works because to me economics was the mechanics of how the sort of the physics of humanity. Why quickly realized that That really it was economics. That would solve the problems in the political science part to sort of describe the problems and I wanted to solve problems. I didn't just describe them And it will be. The epiphany came when I was an exchange student in the Fiji Islands at the University of the South Pacific. What a cool place to do an exchange experience and it was there that I met a Scottish economists who had worked broad and he had solutions. And these these solutions that were small scale that have been implemented through aid money in in especially in Africa and they lifted people out of poverty. And that's what it really attract economics. I returned to the University of South Carolina. Gamecocks change my major and decided. Hey we're going to go peace corps or am I going to stay in economics and do graduate work. Well ended up choosing the latter went to vanderbilt focused on economic development and then Would back the Pacific Islands wrote my dissertation on Economic Development and environmental policy in the area and I was hired here to come the Kelley school to sort of take that scholarship and take that thinking and see what I can do business education. So what was it that made economics feel more real than politics? So I come to this phrase the physics of humanity. What economics does is it? Logically explains Patterns of Human Behavior based on biological motivation. Would you go to the natural world? There's an explanation for why animals behave right and a lot of it is to further further to survive and to further their their species through reproduction as humans. We do that but we also want to serve our interests in terms of leading happier lives. And so when you look at when humans come together they always trade. We were trading thousands of generations before capitalism right. And why do we trade? Why do we make the choice to buy something? We make the choice to buy something because the price repay is less than the value that we attached to it and so- markets are inherently when they're allowed to operate win win arrangements now and in many ways. It's socio biological you see trading you see hunting and eating and you see procreation wherever see humanists right and so what economics does is. It brings a non ideological explanation to how humans interact to try to find win win solutions in their daily lives. And that's what markets are all about. Now you might say we'll fill. I thought economics was about free markets and low taxes and You know Unfettered freedom and in market behavior. But which got understand. Is that as a socio biological phenomenon just like eating or just like procreation they are in the end of them selves just natural phenomena and then we put a we had to put an ethical ends on whether outcomes from those. Nat. That natural behavior is good or bad. And that's where the ethical debate over policy becomes and I think that's where people get confused. Is that economics is really just an an attempt to explain what we see and it comes down to humans responding to incentives incentives that if they act upon them they proceed. That'll make him happier. Live a happier life versus what's the right way to tax something or what is what is a human rights versus. Just you know a a an economic purchase. And that's where I think. The public policy gets confused with the purity of economics so I chose economics because I wanted. I didn't want to be burdened by ideological Imprisonment into way thought about the world in essence. Amine it's scientific. You've kind of put yourself into like you described the characters as observing seeing what the world does and making predictions. And how okay? What experiment can we run to figure out how to check all those boxes absolutely and what what drew me to this in college was Mike and Professors would talk across the range of ideology from left to Right? And at the end of the day policy. If you're being intellectually honest any policy is just a debate over trade offs of benefits and costs and when we look at it that way and we retain into a deal intellectual honesty then there's always a path forward to a better solution but typically that path is complicated it it blurs the line between left and right in terms of of political thinking and at the end of the dates about implementation and about understanding our by our socio biological response to incentives. So how then did you decide that? Being involved in the higher education aspect of this was what made sense for you. How did how did that fit into your goal of being able to change the world like you wanted to back in highschool well. Let's go back to how I define markets if this is an optimistic very optimistic definition. But I'm proud stubborn optimist. If you get to work with me and I'm unapologetic about that But go back to my definition. Markets markets are people trading with each other to live. Better lives to be happier right and and again that you can say that rose colored glasses. Because there's a lot of folks in poverty that trade and they don't not l. able to elevate themselves because of institution society. I'm with you right. But when individuals are given the freedom to act upon their talent to work in an area that they have that they're good at in terms of performance but also have a passion for then they align their work with what makes what makes it gives them a sense of reward in life. And that's what drives success if you think about education. Education is two layers. It's helping students come through Indiana University and figure out what they WANNA do and equipping them to succeed on that path and so our job in higher education is not only to quit folks with the right knowledge and skills but also help them see direction ago where they can earn a live. They can have a job. That's financial rewarding but more importantly emotionally rewarding and. I can't think of any other vocation where you can help. Put people in a position to walk into a better version of themselves and do it not only by sitting the classroom and learning knowledge but also giving them opportunities action based learning opportunities where they can make mistakes. We want students to make mistakes. We want students to take risks and to fail within controlled experiences. So that when they get out in the world and they're working and they're trading their talent for a salary and contribution to have forbidden to business that they have found their calling and that leads that just that's just good for humanity and I and I can definitely vouch because if anyone said the privilege of being able to see you speak being able to talk when you are you are in your element when it comes to being higher education and leading the next generation. Because you do have passion behind it. I know you have filling work because you come in the office You know a lot of times with a big smile on your face as with all the battles you face you know so where have you been able to hone in on your own personal passion and enthusiasm that helps you motivate yourself especially you know? High Education is is not an easy industry to work in. Because you have so many winds blowing in so many different directions That could be political bureaucratic. Could be changing. Generations could be demand supply demand of of students and as even we see students decreasing their demand for for a college education. You know so. How do you keep yourself optimistic in enthused within your passion? I love to teach at the at the end of the day. I I'm I'm I'm higher. I'm I'm a professor right. I loved to published research an economics. Even more I love to teach being in the Dean's office gives me the privilege of helping to take the Kelley School in a new strategic direction under the leadership of our Great Dean Kessler. Who was just your listeners. May know voted by Poets Equates. Twenty the dean of the year recently so it is just a privileged to work variety. But being in the Dean's office you as you mentioned higher education is going through some turbulent times. We have as we've talked about some of the other episodes. We'RE GOING TO HAVE IN INDIANA. We're GONNA have a nine percent reduction in high school graduates over the decade In some ways higher education has gotten very expensive over generation average tuition in higher. Education has gone up two or three times rate inflation. Ninety universities done a good job of key in other Indiana institutions of keeping. Our price increases lower than the average. But still there's this perception society that college is very expensive. It's less accessible than it was a generation ago there's fear high school students and You know all the online environment make means we have more competition and I think that's actually good for for students. They're gonNA have more choices. That's good for the customer in any in any market so the Kelley school like any world-class business school. Ask yourself how do we respond to these new challenges and when I came to the Dean's Office in Two Thousand Sixteen Ardine or the? Id said let's let's elevate our presence on the UPI campus here in Indianapolis to draw help to be a boulder presence in the region and helped drive the economic renaissance. The tag off that we're seeing in this great city and sitting down at my desk and working with everybody to try to figure that out is is a phenomenon. Phenomenally plugs into my passion. And what I'm able to do is is not only in the classroom. My goal is to help students walk into a better vision themselves. When when you're the Dean's office you can aggregate that to the community level right. We're IP WISE ANCHOR INSTITUTION We're just west of downtown with the right leadership in the right vision and the right energy we are. We can be a part or we have to be a part of taking Indianapolis to the next level and when you look at what challenges this economy. It's two things it's talent that can fill the skill jobs because even though this could be a nine percent fall in high school graduates. There's GonNa be an eight percent increase in the demand for bachelor degree workers. We're still a growth market. But we have to figure out how to increase the percentage of high school students. That are getting a college degree and if you get a business degree you're qualified for thirty to forty percent of those new high paying jobs that are coming around the corner. One talent. Hold US back in Indianapolis also. Economic Mobility is not what should be. Education is the ultimate vehicle to make economic mobility a competitive asset for Indianapolis and the only way to move from a lower income. Dessau to hire come. Dessau is through education and we have the privilege and honor of being able to deliver that for folks but have to do it in a new way that changes the national conversation how to deliver management education so again you can see 'em passionate. I'm talking I'm I'm I can I can ramble on this but at the end of the day. Chance Your Question Matt where I plug in right now is taking what you can do in the classroom. And now being part of our our Dean's office and driving that at the community level and aggregating it and I can multiply that kind of impact an essence your changing the world. The way you wanted to you know one one student at a time. Sounds like you know. Seeing that opportunity to be able to directly plug in an impact one person that can ripple into their family that can ripple into their next generation and on and on and on until you're uplifting exactly whole environment of people and the hardest part of that is your traditional executive leadership challenge. I can't do it right whenever I use first person. I'm actually diluting the impact of the institution. So when you're in the Dean's office you really have to practice what you teach and that is is how do you communicate motivate create incentives signal hold accountable all those things that we talk about on the on these leadership episodes podcast to get the organization moving in that direction and whenever when every member of if we've learned one thing from the Roi podcast. The successful organizations are the ones where every member of the team from newest hire at the lowest rank to the most veteran highest value Team member from a business perspective that up and down every day they walk in feeling strong and they know exactly what they need to do to serve the mission they know they can handle any challenges and they feel valued and recognized so one big question. I think a lot of young leaders especially those in there are fresh out of college trying to find their lane of where they need to be is. Maybe I'm stuck. You know I I think especially with this younger newer generation. Being part of it as well is there's this expectancy to reach my calling reached that position far sooner than what many of us many before us have reached. No I'm going to be CEO. Five days after I graduate college with a frigging sometimes that there's a refining process. Along the way you know into finding your lane and so one question I have for you is Outside of the passion of being able to shape the next generation get people in economically challenged areas uplifted into their full potential to change the world. How why did you stick with? Or how did you make your land? I should say here in higher education instead of chasing after it in through the private sector or when one place didn't work out you know just abandoning it to find something else. In the current workplace. There is a crisis of passion. Those that find their passion stick to it even under the most adverse circumstances and work hard and in a realistic about work ethic that is going to earn a paycheck to pay the bills. That grittiness is the key to a work. Life that is emotionally rewarding. You know getting a job that is financially rewarding is actually easier than a job that is emotionally rewarding and I think the challenge Matt is that in the current environment where we have faster cycles of competition markets where people especially in technology jump from organization organization. Because that's just the norm you know in Silicon Valley. The average professional changes organizations Twelve months right. This fear foam right. Fear of missing out right checking our cell phone every five minutes. I mean our brain. Our this sort of constant distraction and constant sense of of change and that we're missing something out runs against our brain is programmed and so people individuals have to make the choice to stay on a path that plugs into their passion and not to pursue the dollar but to pursue something that is larger than yourself because ultimately that's what the literature says. That's what's GonNa make you happier in order to find something that is emotionally rewarding. You have to plug into yourself. You have to practice mindfulness. You have to understand that the chaos around you the craziness that you see from colleagues or team members or family members or friends. The frantic pace of life around us just going along with with that spirit is not the track to happiness. How often do we encounter someone in our life professionally personally disliked us up? There's something about them that centered. There's something about them. That makes them a rock in the storm. That's what we that's what we have to. That's individuals need to choose to be but it means running upstream of everything else that you see around us the temptations of being myopic or or making decisions about the immediate return. Once you center yourself. You're mindful and you really ask yourself what what gets my fires burning inside about what I really enjoy to do. And you focus on that and you'll on your education with that even if it's just a an online course on linked in learning or a graduate degree from the Kelley School Business Nice. Nba which we can we can we can deliver for you. That is is. That's the path and that's what we can enable higher education but I think that discipline is what what the newer generation of of of graduates need to think about if they feel stuck or lost their job the US is full of opportunity. It may not feel like it. But if you if you if you if you're disciplined and you and you wall off all the noise that's out there and focus on what really make what really lights your passion. I promise you that fall in that journey is GonNa take you farther you can ever expect. What would be your advice to that individual? You know because lot of times. When when those noises and distractions come in. It almost feels it. Just turbulent like you you don't have an orientation of where I'm at right now in life Emotionally or physically. Like trying to make sense of it all you know what would be your recommendation to that individual. You know running the hunkered down so they can drill down into that self you know. What is that first? Step debt that kind of starts leading to okay I can. I can finally get my bearing and see the horizon even a little bit. You got to center yourself by plugging into something in your life. That gives you a sense of what we call psychological safety because in that zone. Whatever that zone is you can calm down your stress. Hormones are lower and you can think more clearly what does that mean more specifically it might mean time with your spouse or your partner it might mean reengaging your faith community. It might be going to the gym on a normal basis. But what there's something everyone's life that's A. That's a place of peace and you have to go there to start to order your thoughts and to wall off the the Noise of life and the distractions and the Myopia that plagues what we see. And you know you might say. We'll fill your kind of idealistic here. And you're kind of getting spiritual. Yeah I am. But it's also biological and psychological. Safety is something that our our ancestors as they evolved work to create among their kinship groups. Because that's what led to our survival and plugging back into that primordial sense of of being. That's something larger than ourselves is the place to start and again yes it's spiritual and it. It's not sort of in the rational part of the brain but we're plugging back into the Olympic part of the brain which is where emotions lie and we have to settle. That that that is for for people is different. But that's where we have to go because we because what we see around us. Our brain is not evolved or equipped to make sense of it. Now as we wrap up Phil this is just kind of a fun one. You know. We've done this podcast since two thousand seventeen and you've been a part of that journey since the beginning I would love to know and I think our listeners would also love to know what's been Some your biggest takeaways or best memories that you've had Being a part of the podcast since its inception you know the lessons. I've taken away Matt. There's there's a consistency here First and foremost what I've learned from the ROI PODCAST. Is that if you're GONNA lead an organization or if you're GONNA lead a team if you're lead yourself you have to be very clear about what you want to achieve and need to be able to communicate it and very succinct and simple to understand terms and you need to be able to measure against it. Also I've noticed that the leaders that we've interviewed have a really strong sense of values on ever forget Fred Glass. I guess the most famous line from these interviews that I remembered Came from Fred. Glass our our Indiana University Athletic Director. We did that interview and Bloomington and you know he's retiring. He's announced recently announced his retirement. We're GONNA miss him but he says you are what you tolerate and he was very much values base leader. And so I've I've used that quote a number of times. I always tell tell forgot it but people remember that. You're not you're not what you achieve. You are what you tolerate. And that's what people remember he for and I think that the great history of leaders that we've been able to interview that's exactly what they embrace whether implicitly or explicitly and also these great leaders leave their ego at the door. I think the podcast has reminded me straight in my view that EGO is really the most toxic force and business not confidence but he go and and it makes me remembered how as humans we've evolved to be something larger than to do something larger than themselves and to build an organization that embraces that mission is what inspires people to do better things and create a better workplace. Phil Powell such an honor and pleasure to be able to do this. Show with you so exciting and I'm so Excited for the other leaders. We get to bring and this has been another episode of the. Roi podcast presented by the Indian University Kelley. School of business. I'm your host Martell alongside Associate Dean Phil Powell. Here on the show. Our mission is to help. Organizations make better business decisions. We'll see you next week.

Associate Dean Phil Powell Indiana University Matt Phil Apollo Phil Kelley School of business Kelley school US wrestling Indianapolis Roi P. O. D. professor University of South Carolina INDIANA Africa Fred Glass Economic Mobility Martel High Education Bloomington
148: Can You Become an Engineer (or anything else) without a College Degree [Podcast]

Company of One with Dale Callahan

29:52 min | 1 year ago

148: Can You Become an Engineer (or anything else) without a College Degree [Podcast]

"Welcome back to the company of one. podcast Hey Damn del Callahan. I am your host and today we're going to talk about the You know the thank all higher education is specifically. Can you get or can you become something without higher education and specifically. Can you become an engineer without a college degree. Yeah this is a subject debt. Since I'm an associate Dean I'm an associate professor and engineering. So I spent all my time hanging around academia well at least a lot of my time hanging around academia this hotly contested subject. I'm I'm not necessarily popular matter of fact sometimes. I'm highly unpopular for even saying things like this. I've wrote a post not too long ago. Oh the dim future on higher education and so we'll talk more about that today but at this is an honest look at where we are in education. I am going to focus on engineering but I think we can say almost everything else applies so we'll look at that and we're gonNA pull this apart and and asked so if you're a parent and you're sending somebody to school. Think about this I am. We'll talk about why you know. Think about the value that you're getting think about making decisions ends with your money for the outcomes if you're an employer obviously you're probably already thinking this Many are telling me that if you are a faculty member like myself think about it that gum at this as your career. This is your income For the people in the ivory tower the university's I think a lot of them are thinking about this Summer denying it some pretending it's not happening but it's happening so we're GonNa just give all of them some or all of us depending on where you WanNa put me all of us enough credit to think that you're a that we're we're paying attention But it's a tough road of for a business or an entity to handle that. So let's jump into that here in just a minute but before we do I am trying to get more reviews on my podcast and and men I tuned is not the easiest thing to review. I have to admit that midst. A little clunky so anyway If you if you like what. You're hearing earing. If you're part of this I would love to get review from you and we'll give a shout out as I've been doing This is one from bookie c. l. m. left on. I I tunes. I don't know who bookie Salem is. I just love the titles and the names. We haven't high tuned and it says helps others. Del Style of communication is not emotional hype rather it's practical and inspirational. He's not doing this solely for the money but to truly help other people at chief their dream lifestyle and thank you so much bookie crm yet. I am not as I told you if you've been listening to this told you piece a recent podcast. This podcast is not monetize in any way shape or form right now now. Will I do that later. Maybe but this is stuff that I'm doing this coming out of my work with the executive education out of university How ironic but I'd executive education level of the kind of things that we are spending time talking about? Because I spend my time with corporate people corporate executives software developers all kinds of people the level usually in technology spending my time with him and and hearing their thoughts on what's going on in academia wild while they are participating in academia. It's an interesting dynamic. So let's just jump into the subject at hand. Can you become an and this is a serious question. This is not just me running my mouth. This is a serious question. Can you become an engineer without a degree. Now I've got in the title or anything anything else but I'm going to focus on the engineer and let you kind of Peel back the layers if you're an accountant or if you're a You know brain surgeon or something like Datino desert apply to you. I think it does But the engineer I can put in a box a little bit easier so let's just first DART and say this education is incredibly important so whenever I say things like hey people don't need to come to us and I I say this in meetings very often I have quit saying it to be honest because nobody listens. I just make the mad makes them upset. And it's it's not going anywhere so I'm kind of looking at what I'm looking at things a little bit differently. Not that I disagree with this but when when I do make statements about we are just not adding I say we I mean academia in general. I don't mean our university but I mean academia in general all and specifically engineering schools that we are not necessarily adding the value. Now those are not my words. Those are industries words. Now if you're sitting there in an industry position hiring people and you said Della totally disagree. We hire people in engineering degrees. I get it. Yeah and in many people. Do many people still deal do that. It's still a methodology that we use to say That were doing that but many dunk. We'll talk about that just a minute. So but education listen is important whenever I say we are not adding value or people don't need a degree I am not saying. They don't need education. I am just saying saying that. Universities do not own education colleges and universities that you pay tuition to we don't own education education. We are just a path for disseminating education. And I'm not even sure that We because the education comes from the learner as much as it comes from the teacher but we are a path that at least our society goes to get an education so oh again if you're a parent think about that just for a minute. Nobody's telling you your kid doesn't need to be educated. Matter of fact they need to be highly educated. It's just look at all the opportunities ahead of you look at. What is the Best Bang for the buck now? The universities have something going for them because is a lot of parents want their kid to have an education not necessarily because of the value but because his experience it's they had and the playtime and all the good stuff like that that universities are pretty good at doing and the culture of universities but the knowledge. Yes we do some of that. I won't say we do all of that. We do some of that and we are only one path. The problem is we in the university again. I'm speaking globally. There's many people inside universities it absolutely agree with what I'm saying but globally or collectively we in the university and quite frankly a lot of society thinks that a college degree is the only way to succeed and in particular in the field of technology and education. A college degree is the only way to succeed. So we do think that Were wrong but we think that. And so when I sit in meetings with people quite frankly even though they will hear me out and they will give a nod of of knowledge and acknowledgement to me in the back of their mind. They think there's no way. There's no way we'll talk about that in just a second but let's think about what universities universities do add why to students come to university so I'm sitting in a class the other day and teaching a graduate class in engineering yes. Maybe I'll sound hypocritical because I'm in there but I do think we can add value and so when I teach I'm trying to add value you but I asked this very question to students sitting in front of me who are paying tuition and going in debt for it at this very moment I said why. Why are you showing up in this classroom? And they say well to get a degree in to get an education. And we'll have you ever heard of you two right. Have you ever heard of Youtube move. And all of these other Excuse me my timers Alpha my phone. It's probably so as supposed to be reminding me of something but I don't remember what So you've had been at. I was asking these students. Have you ever heard of Youtube. Every look at all the knowledge out there in front of you. I mean we have a today. Incredible Wealth of knowledge right ended our fingertips. We can just be sitting there on our phone anywhere in the world On a treadmill walking the dog whatever and we I have it right there with us so I'm asking them you know you're not really here at us at the university for Education. What are you here for was to get a job and so we started peeling back the layers and you don't WanNa sit? You can get a job without this women. That's well documented. Well well known. Little small companies like apple make a big giant point to say they don't value higher education. I think think that's exactly the words Tim Cook used you. Seek companies like Google a lot of companies really questioning the value and. I'm not if your a company feels differently. That's great. I'm just saying a lot of major players. I really challenging the norm and so as we pill back with these students what is it. What is the reason they come here and it came down to two things which I knew what the answer was because I've pilled his Blair back myself? It's accountability because when they take a class when they pay us to take a class they have to be done by the end of the semester. They have to show up. They have to do the stuff they have to get a grade and preferably a good grade. There's accountability and we if we think about that. That doesn't mean we're lazy or anything like that woke US hire a personal trainer Gels for accountability. Many people will do lots of things in join a club or pay for some service just for accountability. Because we won't somebody asking us the tough questions so but that's one thing we do university. We have a built in accountability system. You pay you have to show show up do the work. There comes a deadline. And you're done whether you've done the worker not you're done and we grade you on it. The second second thing we have going for us is credentialing like it or not disagree with it or not. We're going to give a diploma and there's a certain segment of our mindset of the world at says that means something now. What what it means when I start asking people and especially industry leaders what it means is all over the map? It's squishy some people will tell me it something they they've been to an institution and been tested and been through the higher learning and the and they really. I believe in what the university is selling and probably they do because they've spent a whole bunch of their own money and they spent a whole bunch of their money with their children dron and they're probably hiring people that come out of that so they believe that they put the where the money is Put the money where their mouth is but others others when we talk about credentialing they will say something like you know. We just need a filter. We are hiring people and we need something to show that they can't are capable of doing something we need a crucible and the universities play play that role that you have to show up you have to go through the insanity you have to pay the bills you have to manage all the craziness that goes with beginning university degree and especially something. Unlock an engineering or complicated degree filled. And you've passed the test me. That's why we see people who are engineers that don't really need engineers nears. They just are looking for people who are willing to work hard enough to make it happen so accountability and credentialing arth to things and they're critical things that the university does to add value now. I just said that yes. The university adds value value by adding accountability in credentialing is at one hundred thousand dollars in value. Four hundred thousand dollars in value fifty. I got no idea um it probably depends on the person but we do that. We do that relatively well. We at least have a built in system of doing the two things but universities are not always good at these other things and I know this because you tell me I am by you who I mean. Industry leaders will say things like it's not really a quality education and many times. They'll say something differently. They'll say it's not the education I had right because we don't ever want a discount. Our own education is not the education I had the the truth be. It's pretty much exactly the education you had. And that's part of the problem is the world's changed but the educational systems haven't really changed aged. Go along with it so but we don't always believe that higher education is quality. Now what does that mean. I mean I don't know kind of what I think. I know the conversations that we have inside the university when we talk about quality education. Is it the same quality education that academia thinks is is. I mean what industry wants and what other people won't I don't think so i. I think we're talking. What one means by quality and what the other means by qualities tutor? Thanks which kind of comes to the second thing. We're not always that great ad is relevant the education we are oftentimes behind the gone Or behind the time especially in an high and in quickly moving technology she fields because our faculty members some of them are way out in front but a lot are lagging behind. They're they're in a world old. That does not while they may be. Researchers at the world is not released sponsor them or to to teach to the leading edge to the bleeding edge ob- but an industry expressly in engineering. That's what they're doing and again. These are not my words. I hear this all the time from engineering firms in executives people that say it's just not relevant and some of them are on my board and they will sit in the board board meeting and they will say that apologetically. Maybe and you know I'm I have to tell them no need to apologize. I'm with you. I totally agree here. But they'll say it and they'll usually say Dell it's not you it's not your university it's just in general is just not relevant. It does pass that test of yeah. They've accomplished something when we hire them but they really don't know much and so it doesn't Rela is the information that we've Delivered is not relevant and often times. It's not accurate. What were taught in the university is not always the way? It's done right so while so while we do two things really well accountability and credentialing. We struggle with equality and we struggle with relevant education. In boy. I say that with you. Just don't know that amount of energy we spent on what we call all quality control in education. But it's funny because what it is. It's it's usually educators making sure there's quality maybe that makes sense. I don't know so we're educating with quality like we're measuring how well we educate but sometimes we forget to say what are we educating on the relevancy. Anyway that's a that's a struggle and again I'm not talking about any particular university. That's just a normal struggle. So let's think about this with disruptive innovation now I know I said I was going to talk about. Can you become an engineer or anything else without a degree. Clearly I think you can see my answer is yes else. Yes you can There's some challenges here but yes you can. But let's talk about disruptive innovation you may not know what that means but disruptive innovation is some innovation that comes along that totally blows apart the market. Think about Uber to Taxicab Service It something that's different changes. The changes is the game of how things happen. Think about Amazon Bookstores Right So they're they're things that usually start small usually start kind of clunky and In the take off and they blow apart and entire industry and we call that disruptive innovation. That's actually an Harvard. NBA Va Faculty member term. So he's added that value right so there's an article. I talked about the the future of higher education. I won't I'll put a link to it in show show notes. which are Ed Dale Callahan Dot com slash? thisiis one forty eight so slash one forty eight The DM future sure of higher education. where I just making a making the case when you've cut off the world of facebook and an apple and in other media platforms that know what we're doing? No it were thinking. They know where I stand. They know how well my they I know about my grammar. They know what I'm thinking about. They probably know my skills and they have the need for technology people they can use their artificial intelligence engines to create yes that's right to create education inside their system. Do It for free do it for pay. I don't know how they're going to do it but they're going to do it. Apple is already playing some of this game And and they're making the statement that were just going to build our own workforce and they don't value necessarily college degrees again they've said that so disruptive education when I look at higher education. It's a it's it's really going to beating So there's there's a great book I'll put a link to this in the show notes to called Late bloomers and in the end of the book. He's talking about for higher education and he's just talking about how does higher education deal with Labor bloomers but he makes the statement. It's not so subtle that higher education will whatever one's going to be left. Here's what they should be doing is interesting. Because he's looking at it and he realizes they're probably going to be mergers and acquisitions in the higher education market yes. Another public universities universities private universities but There's a lot of competition out there and there's more stuff every day and so it's going to be disrupted and it's going to hurt and for from those of us on the inside it's going to hurt But that's it's going to happen so with that said let's just think about it scenario of two and I just put yourself as as a hiring engineer so you you're not the HR person you are the engineer. These people are going to be working for right. They've gotten past. Hr and you interview to people. One of them has come to you and is fifty sixty thousand dollars in debt. Did his or her for four years. Let's call it six years because it's an engineering but four to six years got. The degree had good grades bad grades but mostly pretty good grades. They're in debt. They learned the material. You're hiring them. They seem like a good candidate. And then you ha and then you interview another engineer quote Unquote Engineer has zero debt. That did it in two years. Not Forty six and didn't really go to school he used. She used tools. Like you to me. Headaches Core Sarah took courses from some of the top universities or sees right and from people that weren't universities that would could learn the skills and did it on his or her own longtime. Now I ask that question too many people and I even ask that question to the classroom of graduate engineers people who have recently got after undergraduate in engineering and now they're in a graduate program and I said who would you hire and they said we would hire the second person because is not whether he's urged season dead or not. I mean that's fine. But if look how they can manage their life that's how they're going to manage us they're thinking but the main thing is they showed self-discipline. They can get it done. I won't that person and you think about that for a minute. Who would you are? You would probably hire the second person now. I asked that question in some all fairness. Some people say we're going to hire the first person because I don't think they've missed anything and they've studied under you know experienced -perienced engineer. You know okay but so there's no real clear answer except just think about the scenario. If you've got a son or daughter going off to college think about it. You're about to spend but it's going to be one hundred thousand you know maybe you can can do something a little cheaper. I don't know probably not it's going to be about one hundred thousand. It's going to be a little over four years for an engineering in degree. Probably five it's going to Have a lot of pain and suffering health things go with higher education and academia right. It's it's going to have the fun stuff to in along with the fun stuff many of us especially those like me. That are Christian. Really have a problem with things that are going on inside the academia Amihai. So you'll see people say. Send your kids to college and they come back twisted and warped and yeah. That's true that can be really a true statement so you put put all that stuff together and you think about what's going on so I talked to parents all the time even without my influence that are struggling. They want their kids to have a a great future and they won't to have the opportunity to do things they may be are interested in technology. That's why they're talking to me and they are yet scared of the university. It's like a Cesspool of liberal thinking. I don't mean political but you know the It's a cesspool list is in. There is a lot of that that goes on There's I hate parents as there's a lot of that kind of stuff that's there and then there's the money right so in there sitting there scratching their head but they're like if I don't send Johnny and Suzy to skull they're going to be living in a van down by the river right. And there's this fear and there's this tension and I'm seeing it in parents all the time and I see it even in individuals that are thinking about or spending the money the skull so I wanNA ride a prescription here right this. This is a prescription for how to do it. I'm not suggesting you don't go to school. I'm suggesting you think about it. Make an informed decision. Think about what you do now. This could be true of anything. Yes if you're going to be a neurosurgeon you probably need to be board certified and do all that other great stuff and probably that path of not university is for not there yet if you're going to be an accountant in a CPA right now. The CPA exam requires as you to have certain in degrees kinda built in system. Right if you're going to be a professional. Licensed engineer like mini. Civil engineers are yet same thing. It's built thin to the system But let's just think about the typical electrical mechanical engineer. If you WANNA do that and you don't want it to go to school. What you WANNA do is focus on developing a plan that uses discipline and other words? You need personal or your Johnny Audience. Uzi needs personal discipline to get it done now. They need personal discipline to go to school to excuse me but it's GonNa be a little bit more intense that they can get it done and and so here's how we do this. Just determine what you need by looking Silva now I actually have an entire entire curriculum set out for electrical engineering looking. At how could you do this without coming to our university. And I'm doing that for Opposition research if you will oh for the university how would they play against us and I look what's a what's in an electrical engineering career and what you to me. Courses is what Corsair courses would you take to go around us and it's scary because it's easy it's incredibly blazey and the Nice thing is with you to me. You don't have a lot of accountability but with some of the core Sarah stuff you do so what you WanNa do is take a look an all use electrical engineering. What courses do you need to have? What do you need to know? What's that kind of base? Knowledge determine what it is then go find places assisted learn it and then set up a schedule and do it. Not The hard part right there. That's where the accountability comes in. But it's doable doable. It's incredibly doable. And here's how I know we graduate people all the time Who we'll come to us and say hey engineering? School was great and all that. But you'd be saved my life because when I got him the job I needed to learn skills that did not have job that you did not teach me so I will get on you to me or other tools spin tens and tens of dollars right because that's how much it cost also and and learn the skills that really I needed on the real job so it's out there so but you set schedule and you do it and then focus on experience because quite frankly what I'm going to hire you for is not your degree. We all know that I'm going to hire you for your experience. So you've got some engineering skill sets that you've developed on your own and you found a way to get experience which that's very doable. You're there you're done you don't need and save of a ton of money so let's say you spend five grand on that you're ninety five thousand dollars to the good. You're already a winner right now. Aw Yes don't send me an email and set well go ahead and send me email said but I'm not suggesting 'cause I'm with the university there are some things we do really really really will expect especially in the executive education sweet. Were doing that pretty darn well. We're doing undergraduate graduate pretty well. It's just going away and is going away fast and were blinded to it. We globally are kind of blinded added to it and see what's happening so I'm not saying you don't do that but my gosh think about what you're doing you can do this without a degree you can do accounting without a degree you may not get the license and certification but you can do it. You can do physics. You can do chemistry. You can do math. You can certainly do art history. You can certainly do music and all these kinds of

engineer faculty member Ed Dale Callahan executive university for Education apple Sarah accountant Salem c. l. m. US Johnny Audience Youtube associate Dean Tim Cook Google Della NBA Datino desert
Unpause Yourself

Women at Work

42:23 min | 1 year ago

Unpause Yourself

"You're listening to women at work from Harvard Business Review. I'm amy. Bernstein I'm Amy Gallon. For many of us the pandemic and now the recession have limited our ability to make a career move, but there are aspects of our professional lives that are still in our control. We'll be talking here about how to get to where you want to be. Despite the constraints, we'll also talk about how to protect a job. You love, but that may be at risk. Let's start with that first scenario. You've been working toward a change. Maybe a different team, different company different industry different salary band. Maybe trying to step into a leadership role. Your career was on the upgrade. And now you feel like you're in maintenance mode or even regressing. We asked Kathleen Mcginn for insight on what moving ahead means now and for advice on when and how we should be pushing ourselves. Kathleen to professor at Harvard Business School in her research. She explores the relationship between gender in Career Mobility and how people negotiate better futures for themselves. Kathleen, thank you so much for being on the show today I'll thank you very much for having me I'm looking for conversation me, too. So in the beginning of this season of our show back in April, we were talking about muddling through day to day. How that was sort of just enough at that moment, but now here we are in June, talking about a return to professional advancement I think a lot of women are still beyond stretched. So are we getting ahead of ourselves, or is it the right time to be? Be Thinking about professional advancement, it's natural for thinking about professional advancement. That's what professional women think about, but it's also natural to be exhausted, so there's been a lot of discussion about fast energetic level of response, initially to the stay at home, and now we're exhausted. We're in this phase where we are starting to come out and look around so removing to both physically and professionally opening up. But that's a really unknown phase following so many unknowns in the previous two phases it's an opportunity to assess and to adjust and to look around you and see what is there and see how you'd like to respond. It's probably not the time to be jumping into things. One of the many ways that people have talked about this period is that so many people are in a time of grief. I one of the things you learn about grief is that you shouldn't be making really big decisions in the throes of the first stage of group. And that's a reasonable way to think about where we are. We are becoming accustomed to a very different. Life than we thought we had and it's time to assess. It's time to start thinking about what adjustments you WanNa make. But. It's probably not time yet to jump into something hugely new, because we are still dealing with that grief now so amidst all of these interconnected crises we've been grappling with. We've had the pandemic we've had. Economic. Recession! How much agency do you see women having? To get where they want to be professionally, so agency isn't interesting word. We think of agency as on others I like to think of agency and we have a study of this right now on how you speak for in think of yourself whether you think of yourself as making the decisions as framing your world, many have talked about. Viktor, Frankl's man's search for meaning. He talked about meaning as found in the south in the moment. That's the fundamental sense of agency that we have to keep alive during this time to ask yourself what brings you meaning in the moment in that sense? Yes, we need to be highly gigantic right now. Clayton Christianson one of my colleagues at HP S, who recently passed away one of the things he would say to me and others on a regular basis is decide what you stand for and live it all the time. That's agency. Living Out your values every day, it doesn't mean like every single thing you do is totally consistent with your sense of values in some higher level goal, but it means that you're focusing on the few thinks the activities, the changes that are related to that higher level, and even most of them. Don't work out right now. You're going in the direction that brings you meaning. That's agency. It's really interesting that you put it that way. Because a moment of truth like this and we've had several moments of truth in the last few months. Sort of helps you discover what you stand for right now. But shouldn't that. Doesn't that also intern? Drive you forward professionally. Absolutely and I think right now. This reflection is not just what's going to bring me meaning. How do I bring meaning to the world? But when things really do start to open up? What are the actions? I'M GONNA. Take to deal with the barriers that are out there. So think about what is your approach is going to be is very different than saying. I'm GonNa jump now for some women. You can do it right now. Some women are very much into settings for opportunities are presenting themselves. But many of us are waiting. And waiting not to says a time of reflection, but a time of planning for what's next right? One of the things in terms of like sort of emotional situation for many of us right now is that we don't feel like we have control, and maybe the illusion of control. It was maybe that was imagined before the pandemic, but now especially in these like intersecting crises were having it. It just feels like a lot is happening to us and I'm curious one. How do we wrap our heads around what we do have control over. And how do we pace ourselves so that we're taking action at the right points as you said not jumping in necessarily right now, but piecing ourselves so that we're ready when there is time to take action, right such a great question. This is a really unusual crisis, because it is both an individual and personal crisis for nearly everyone in some way, and it is the largest collective crisis I think the world has ever engaged in. So because it's a collective crisis, the way to really think about how to continue moving forward has to do with that collectively. I'm senior Associate Dean for Faculty Development and I work with a team. There's four of us. We worked together a lot. More on at least one long zoom call a week. Sometimes many lots of emails flying back-and-forth. and. All of us are dealing with. Individual and personal crises in the middle of this collective crisis. One of us, her parent got sick right before coded, and she's been living at her parents house working literally from her childhood desk for twelve weeks. One of them has two young children at home. She's trying to home school. Her husband's also working from home. They're trying to coordinate schedules, but as everybody knows young children. Aren't that easily tucked into your your work schedule? One lives with her sister who has health conditions that make her at really high risk for the virus, and to really large dogs that are a part of every one of our zoom calls and I lost. Both my parents and my sister's been hospitalized over the past six weeks, so we. Check in with each other, we send each other notes, we take turns, being comforters and being comforted. We ask when another should I be doing this now. Is this the time for this? Are we ready for this? Is the school ready for this? Is Our team ready for this? Are Programs Ready for this? As one of the on listeners wrote to us. Were all connected in uncertainty, anxiety and fear, and we can be connected in hope. And I just I loved what she said and it is. The answer to your question. How do we know when to move forward Wednesday the time? We ask one another. We turn to those who are in the same set of crises we are. Our Group. Before is no more unique than any other group. Before working together, everyone has a personal crisis Thir- living through right now, and we have a collective crisis that is holding us both together and apart. We need to be checking in with one another to see if now's the time, right. I love that. Point about asking others, because I think one of the sort of mental blocks that happens when you're in a situation where you don't have a lot of agency or where you're feeling, grief or trauma is, do somehow convince yourself. You're being lazy or using the event as an excuse like I should be focused on my career I should be doing these things. I love. Love the idea of actually reached out to others and saying. Does this feel like the right time for me? Yeah, you're saying Kathleen made me think about the fact that you know you said it. We've never been through anything like this before. There are no rules. Where's the playbook and so the sounding board function of friendship? Is that much more important right now? and. Many are worried about I lost my job. Where do I go how to explain this gap in my CV? This is going to be a gap that everyone in the world understands. This is the time for you to say if I am now on furlough. If I don't have a job right now, what can I do to bring my skills to a place where they feel at use and in the future? I'm going to explain this gap in my TV by saying. I was working in a food bank because I lost my job. And that's fantastic and I would hire you if you said that. right. So carefully I, imagine among our listeners are people who were in the process of becoming a leader of convincing themselves and the people they work with it. They were. Growing into leadership that they could do. And now they're wondering how to carry on with that transition. What what do you say to them I would say this is your opportunity to think about negotiation as something going, you are creating value for yourself in this really unusual time of learning and growing in ways. We didn't even know we could grow. You are creating value for your boss by simply being there at a time. When so many can't be. You're creating value for the organization by responding to this just total unknown. And now's the time to advocate not necessarily for a raise or for promotion, but for public recognition of your involvement in that value creation. People should be announcing one another successes. Ask Your Supervisor Your Co workers your friends to talk about your successes, and you'll talk about. There's to make your value known and to let others know that you know your value. So, it's very different not to be asking for sort of compensation right now, then to be ignoring the value that you're bringing into the organization. And, after the successes that you're helping, put in place right now. Talk with your boss about what you learned about how you grew through the experience about what you're ready for next, and when your company comes out of the end of this, that values can be understood, and you can build from that so I, think people think right now is the time when you shouldn't be negotiating, but if you think about negotiation in a broader way of creating value. Now is exactly the time we should be negotiating. What can we do for our organizations for our families for our partners for our children for career right now, that creates value and. Also, to your point earlier about taking time now to lay the groundwork, so you're ready to act later right, and you're demonstrating your value so when you are able to ask for that promotion or raise, you've laid the foundation right absolutely I want to ask about the practical piece of around raises and promotions now because we've heard from several of our listeners that they were. Were on the cusp of a promotion or raise that they had been promised promotion or raise, and that has fallen through. You just said it now is not the time to negotiate, but how hard should be pushing right now? It may obviously laying the foundations important, but when they've been promised something that hasn't come through. Is there any room to push back to negotiate? I think probably pushing right now is a tricky thing. Everybody is being pushed in so many directions. Organizations aren't telling really talented people that are not going to promote the master all because the organization doesn't want to promote them. They're telling really talented people that they're not going to promote because they don't have the resources because the projects have been cancelled CETERA, so it is time to push. Push for how can I bring something to the organization now and I understand and to make it really clear I understand that that compensation that promotion is going to come as dean of faculty. I had to talk with all of our faculty about this. At our most recent faculty meeting. We are moving into the next academic school year. Not Knowing what faculty are going to be doing. They don't know how they're going to be teaching. They don't know how many people they're going to be teaching and I had to say. We don't know but work with us. And as a community we will get through this and at the end of this we will make. We're measuring as we go, and we will make sure that people get the recognition in the compensation. But we can't do it right now. We can't figure out a priori how to compensate. Reward people for. We don't even know what tomorrow is. And so I think what people should be pushing for. Is that announcement that measurement of making sure that people are aware of what they're doing and constantly having the conversation I know now's not the time, and I'm really happy that I can be here now working through this. And I know that tomorrow's GonNa bring us back to a place where we can get back to compensation promotions going with the workout. So, how will we know when it is the time? Yes, so we know when it is time by curiosity in questions, so one of the keys to negotiations is always looking out for the other, so with Corinne, low and Nava Ashraf. We created a girls negotiation project for girls in Zambia and this has become a curriculum for girls around the world. And we translated everything. We know about negotiation into four words. Me You together built I need to understand what I need what I can give. I need to understand what you need and what you can give. We need to work together to understand what the constraints are with. The roadblocks are the timing issues are and then together. We need to figure out how to build the value that you bring an i. bring into something bigger. And that those four simple words are so easy to remember okay, what is it that I need? What is it that I bring? What is it that my boss needs? Organization needs what is that they bring and when to start. Asking is when I realized that what we're doing together. has started to really pay off the so that there are resources that I can now start to tap into to get the compensation the promotion the recognition for what it is. We're building together What advice do you have for listeners who? are feeling just really emotionally exhausted and paralyzed in this moment. Maybe are listening to this and thinking. There's no way I can even take. Any of these steps I'm I'm just stuck any advice for them. Yes. This is I. AM trying very much to learn Spanish I've been doing it for years. I've gotten to the point where I work out to my Spanish lessons, own form of meditation and one of my favorite phrases in Spanish Polka Pogo just just like step by step bit by bit one little piece at a time. And I think this in many ways brings us back to this discussion of Frankel if you're living out your meaning every day, a little bit at a time and the activities that you're engaging in conversations are engaging in the just rest you're engaging in is somehow tied to where you get and give meaning step by step is going to bring you so far, Kathleen you've made all of this seem so much more. Manageable all these crises there's been so overwhelming and your insight. Cut through to the place where we can deal with it. We can deal with it bit by bit. It's the only way we can deal with it, so thank you so much for sharing that with us. Thank you very very much been. It's been a really rough time for me to and I so value the opportunity to talk with you about what everybody's collectively going through. Now. Let's play out a second scenario. You're exactly where you want to be at work, and you're hoping against hope that the recession won't put your position at risk these wedeman. dowling coached women on protecting their jobs through the great recession and she's back with advice. DC's is a consultant and longtime contributor H biard. She's an expert on communication leadership in managing stress, and she's also the founder and CEO of work, parent a consulting firm that advises organizations and parents daisy. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having me. So what are you hearing from your clients and other people in your life? Who may be afraid of losing their jobs right now? What's coming back to you? So the overwhelming thing that I'm hearing from people is a sense of. Of Not knowing exactly what to do, people are concerned. They're scared. They're feeling the effects of the pandemic in their lives and so many different ways. They're worried about their jobs. They're still working very very hard, but they're not sure exactly what actions to take on their own behalf, or with the people around them to try to make things better to try and get more sense of security and comfort themselves and feel like they're going to be in that job six months or a year from now. Back in two thousand eight. You actually wrote an article for HP are called how to sell yourself when you're jobs at risk, the advice was very practical. Then in feels quite relevant today. Can you just take us through what you said in that piece, and how it applies to this moment, sure, and if I could go back and put fresh headline on that piece and reissue it for today. This don't assume that your colleagues or your boss are clairvoyant in other words, each of the things that I recommend to people then and now a really around communicating communicating what you're doing what your priorities are what your value is communicating, who you are as a professional, so because we're all working remote, because we're all in crisis, a lot of people have really stepped away from some of the day-to-day communications and signalling that they would get in the normal course of business. Remember. Your colleagues can't necessarily see you anymore and they're busy, they're. They're stressed out themselves. So the the main things that I suggested in that piece twelve years ago and then I, think are still really relevant. Today are ways to get yourself back on that radar, but in a way that's appropriate to the situation, so the the first thing that I recommend is drawing attention to great work that somebody else has done. I think it's it's really stressful for anybody I know. It's hard for me to sort of pounder, own chests, or to say look at all the great work. I did tutor own horn it a lot easier. If you're bragging about somebody else so if you go to your boss and you say, look my colleague, who just started at the organization six months ago or Or you know who's working for me, did a fabulous job helping to get this major documentary project or report across the line and I'm delighted the client received it very well well. You're praising somebody else, but you're also saying is listen. We got this done. I was part of a winning team and under my stewardship under my leadership. This younger person this. League is really thriving so the way to pat your own back without seeming so self interested I also encouraged when I'm coaching, individuals, male and female, but maybe Particularly Women when I'm coaching them on how to Brag without feeling, bragging or awkward I often recommend that they think about what a more senior person or another colleague is really hungry to here. So, there's very few bosses who don't WanNa. Hear about a project going well or about a client being happy or about something having been done under budget or before deadline, and if you keep your comments. What happened or what somebody else did again you're you're providing information that that person really wants a needs because they can convey it to their own boss, or they can use it in their own work, so think of yourself in some ways providing the other person as service when you talk about what you were getting done and remember again that people may not necessarily know what you're doing. You know you are in your dining room, and maybe very far away and not. Just down the hall. Very, so, what? What's your advice of that article? So the other thing that I suggested is for people to have some pretty direct conversations with their managers. I'm but to focus those conversations on priorities as opposed to. How am I doing so if you want feedback particularly, if you're feeling a little, anxious or shaky about your position right now, instead of saying, how am I doing weird? You see this going. As my job at risk, instead go to your boss and say. These are difficult times, and over the next three weeks over the next three months. My priorities are A. B. and C. or driving. These particular project is where I'm focused. If you want to. You can even share that information on a percentage basis, so you can say of all the time that I'm putting into this job right now. I'm allocating it as follows. It seems to me that what you need and that's what the team needs. Given the business context were in. Do I have that right? And what that allows your boss to do is to give you some rather direct feedback, positive or constructive, but it turns it into a more of a peer to peer relationship and conversation about solving a business problem and moving business forward as opposed to saying soothes my anxiety about how well I'm doing. You can also get a lot of Info from the boss about where. They. Think the organization or your team is headed, so that feedback could be helpful in where you refocus your time and energy to further. Protect your job because if you find out your bosses most concerned about a particular initiative. You can say how great how can I contribute to that exactly? And for so many organizations, things have really shifted and. May Or may not be on board. They may not have the information, so it can be very reassuring for manager to new that you are or to have that conversation to have that upfront. Another thing that it does is really signal to a manager that you're thinking in the same way that they are about the business, and about getting things done the you WanNa. Make sure that you're aligned that you're not out for yourself or for just getting work done, but that you're really a good colleague and I think as managers leaders may have to make some additional very unfortunate choices about who they keep on a team. They're going to want to have people who are thinking like that alongside them. who were saying? How can I? How can I be additive? How can be helpful here? As opposed to saying I want feedback to on me myself right? Yeah, it's such a great way to build. Their confidence in you and to build trust I I love the way you've put that. Did you also talk about finding a teaching moment in that article? What? What did you mean by that? So I think people can react to crisis in three different ways, the first is that they can sort of panic and freak out and spend all their time talking about the crisis. The second is that they can put their heads down and steady on do their work, and that's okay, and the third and we've. We've all witnessed this. In moments of pressure is that they can really take on whether or not you have this title or see yourself as one or not, they can really take on leadership roles. So, if everybody around you is relatively new to the organization, and you're going through a crisis figure out a way that you can help further integrate them even if everybody's working remote. If you're working with a lot of junior people who may not understand some of the business implications of what's going on right now you know offer to get them all on the phone call and just debrief them and walk them through. What some of this means or Or find a moment when it's just one to one to try and develop a junior person or appear. None of us have a lot of time right now I. Know I certainly don't between remote learning your kids and trying to deal with you know, Corona, virus, era, everything and keeping up on the news and doing jobs. It's just there's a lot and it may not feel like you have a lot of excess bandwidth for this. But if you can do this sort of I'm still investing in my peers I'm here as a resource to you. I'm setting a bar and a metric that we should all be calm and still working well with each other. Even amidst this this terrible crisis, it sends a really really strong message, and you may not think that people are noticing when you do stuff like this, but they absolutely are, and they're saying. ooh, wow, that person really is handling this well even under incredible pressure, and you'll be surprised. How much people get an impression of you as cool calm and collected as even amidst crisis of doing everything that you really want senior leaders to do? DC You also advised to get an early say. Don't don't work longer hours just earlier, ones. Senior people tend to be early birds, and they'll notice if you're there, remember you don't know who's making decisions about the names on the dreaded list. So, what does that mean to get an early when you're sitting at home I guess is a question. Yeah, so when we're working at home. We tend to do things when we feel we need to do them. We'll send an email. Maybe our first email of the day at nine thirty ten thirty am because that's when we have to communicate to somebody, or we'll dump on slack or give somebody a call when there's a business reason to do so. Unfortunately, that can leave people with the impression, even if it's not a direct impression that you were working that you somehow weren't available or on the job until that time because you probably are on really early in the morning, you just need to signal that you are on, so most of us are probably checking emails over breakfast. Respond to a couple of them, even just with a very brief answer. It doesn't mean that you're going out of your way to create a completely artificial impression just that you're conveying the work that you're. You're actually doing or let people know that Hey I know tomorrow is GonNa, be really busy for you. You're working parent. You've got a lot going on at home if you WanNa talk at six six thirty in the morning, if that's easier for you I'm perfectly available. I'm not suggesting to people that they work eighteen hours a day and you know, sit down and their computers at five thirty in the morning and go all day I. Certainly don't I'm just suggesting that generally speaking is helpful to shift things a little bit earlier. Again sending some. Deliberate small-scale signals that you do have a particular kind of commitment that mirrors that of senior people in an organization. My. I WANNA go back to the point. You made in that article that nv just read about you don't know who's making the call on. Who's going to be on that dreaded list? Because a lot of what we're talking about are things that your immediate manager might notice or see, but we've talked in previous episodes of the podcast about being visible to the most senior leaders in the organization. You any thoughts about the best ways to do that. I think the best way to do that. Particularly at a time, right like right now and people are so overwhelmed when they have so much that they have to do at at very senior levels, it's just to make really active use of the CC line, so if you're giving your manager and. The kind we talked about if you're saying hey, you know here's rate works in a colleague did or just to give you. A heads up on the fact that we got the project completed or the document off to the client, just make certain that you're being slightly more assertive than you might typically be an including people who might be in other departments who might be another offices who might be more senior to you in not on every single thing you don't want to become annoying or gratuitous, but just to luke people in I also think if you have the conversation on priorities with your boss. That's something that can be very easy for your boss to then communicate upwards so one thing I typically advise my co cheese. Cheese is when they do have a conversation like that. Hey, here's what I'm focused on. Here's what I think is a top priority for me in the next six to eight weeks or six to eight months that they think about doing that in a very very simplified one pager format something that they can hand off to a boss if they choose and is something that can then be used shared with somebody else so in other words. Give your boss sort of the script the lines here. She needs to also be a good advocate for you if they're in conversations when you're not in that room. I'm wondering if you can help us, understand recognize when maybe we've gone a little too far with it. You've knowledge that sometimes it can seem a little stagey. Or over the top so you know when you're contemplating something, that's maybe a step to for. So I'm a big believer in keeping track of things. And maybe that's my personality, but I think when you are thinking about the touch points you're going to have senior leaders. You're thinking about how often you're going to toot your own horn to the boss. You're thinking about all these things that may not be natural for you, and may easily as you say, go overboard, I would just keep a little log for yourself. It's fine once a week. Maybe every ten days to send it updates, saying hey, great news. This part of the project went really well. Well if you're doing it every other day, then that's GonNa seem a little bit overboard. It's going to begin to get annoying. I think pretty quickly so I think just be conscious of frequency and make certain that you're being honest with yourself about what that is I've seen a number of people including some of my coaches. Let anxiety get the better of them, and effectively over use these techniques to the point where they work a little bit against them. They take up too much time, and they don't sit quite as well with colleagues with managers yeah. So DC? We've been hearing a lot about furloughs lately. Pretty widespread. Is there anything that you can do if you've been furloughed to protect yourself to possibly move yourself up the callback list any ideas. I think there is just maintaining good communication with the people that you've worked with They may not have much more information than you do. But the decision about your being called back, we'll be made probably the level above you or a couple of levels above that so as long as you can keep yourself as on that radar screen as possible if there is a decision about who. Who to call back, you want to telegraph that you're ready. Willing and able to return to work. Don't be silent. Don't run off concerned, depressed and sort of just not get in touch because you're waiting for a big organization announcement. Make sure you're in there again. Without doing it, you know too much without pestering or bothering the people you work with. Try and stay top of mind. So daisy were coming into summer time of year. When most of us kind of tap the breaks try to relax a little bit. Take vacation is. Is that wise right now? What would you advise? Most of the organizations that I'm consulting right now are so strained stretched the people within them are so pressured. That I think the idea of announcing hey I'll be off for a week or two weeks would come honestly as a surprise to people and I don't think it's kind of surprise that any of us wants to bring I hate to say that because I am as. As passionate and an advocate of vacation and time off as you'll ever find, but I just think it's at this point at this fourteenth mile of the marathon. It's hard to say I'M GONNA. Go sit down and take a break for a short while what I do. Think people need to get a lot better at doing and I've spent a Lotta Time coaching people through this. This in the past several weeks is finding boundaries and limits, so you may not be able to take a whole week to you know to kick back even if you richly deserve it which I think we mostly do at this point all of us, but that doesn't mean that you need to be on all the time or that. You have to be sort of treating your. Your weekend days as if they're weekdays or that, you have to completely stop any kind of self care because you just need to be working like crazy. I think that's what's really really burning people out now. Is that sense of I'm on the treadmill and there's absolutely no way to jump off that red button that stops. The belt has disappeared somehow, and I can't slow down. When people get exhausted so I'm all for the the small bite vacation the day off the two hours in the evening, the set hours giving yourself breaks during the day. Of many micro breaks that will help keep us resilient when we need it the most yeah. Not The summer. Any of US thought we would have no. So I have talked to friends who are in this position of worrying about their jobs at this moment, and many of them describe sleepless nights, and you know just sort of high levels of stress and I'm curious if you have any advice about how to make sure you don't. Drive yourself crazy trying to protect your position in overthinking to the point where you're not sleeping. Yeah, and this is gonNA. Go back to what may sound like some very. Some very basic stuff, but I think it's incredibly important most people that I talk to you anyway. The people who? Come in and need and want. My attentions have put this to the side. The first is just around basic self care. When people are that stressed out, I usually find. They're also not eating great. They're not exercising. They're also not connecting with other people outside of their work sphere. Who can give them support and remind them that it will be okay. The may not be taking time adequate time for themselves and by that I. Don't mean days at the SPA. That's sort of ten minute walks just to get their heads together. They probably are also not thinking in a way that can be very helpful, which is to really play things through. If you do your job, it's very stressful particularly in this environment, but then think to yourself okay. What happens next well then? I'll likely get unemployment. That won't be terrific, either, but what is soon as I. Get unemployment, I'll start looking for a new job and then the next thing within a certain number of months. I'll probably be working again. Maybe I'll have to get it very different kind of job. You start actually forecasting into the future rather than thinking just about the stress of this particular moment, it usually takes a lot of the power. Power away from that future, it is very scary if you spend some time actually thinking through what your actions would be, and and how you would live through. That is still scary, but it's not of the endlessly sleepless nights variety. It takes away some of the. It's daunting nece. If you well so I encourage people to just Kinda, bring it back to basics, and also to think okay well. Here's what that would look like. It's might be very very bad, but not as completely catastrophic might be imagining it sort of rehearsing it. Yeah, it's A. It's a cognitive behavioral therapy technique. Just play it through, and you know that usually makes you feel better, yeah? Daisy. Thank you so much for talking with us today. This has been super, practical and helpful. Thank you so much for having me. May Be. I have to admit that I was hoping daisy would tell us. It was okay to slow down this summer, so a little disappointed in her advice, not that it's wrong. It's just the reality of how. Challenging protecting your position right now keeping your job, the pressures were all under. It was just it's. It's hard to hear. It is hard to hear that we cannot take our foot off the gas. Yeah, I was right there with you and I. Almost crestfallen when she said that, because the very people who she's addressing without advice, are the ones who were under added stress. They think they're losing their jobs. They are worried that they're not progressing the way. They thought they were progressing. So this is just. Stress on stress for them. Yeah, and I mean her advice also pointed to. Not just the pressures were on under now which are great, but also the pressures. We've been under for a long time. I mean the common about. Checking your email at breakfast or Elmer Gosh it just reminder of how overworked we were before the pandemic and has just gotten worse. I will say that you know when we talk to daisy. have been planning a vacation that I'm actually starting tomorrow and I did have a moment where I was like you know. Is this the right thing to do? And I had I had to think it through, and it is. It is the right thing to do right now. Amy Emphatically the right. Yeah, you cannot imagine. How frequently I say to my direct reports, and even their direct reports when I'm in touch with them. Hey. Are you planning a vacation or if I get an email on the weekend? I will shoot back. Why are you working on a Saturday? I think a lot of people who do a lot of managers who have the same guardrails. Advice given how many organizations she works with just is just a reminder of how many organizations where that's not the case, there are people working sadder is in Sunday's sending emails all hours of the day. It's expected I know which is just lets her breaking in many ways, and it's cruel. It's it's just it's cruel, and it's counterproductive. Yeah, we should always be taken care of the people we can take care of. As managers. But now more than ever. We should be taken care of each other. What about your your ticky vacation rate? Oh, you're damn right taking vacation. I'M GONNA take off a week at the end of this month, and probably some scattered days the week before that and I cannot wait and I hope everyone who's listening to. This is taking care of themselves. Yeah, yeah, I talked to a call. Yesterday said she doesn't work at each bear, but she said I can't take a full vacation right now. 'cause with everything going on, but I am definitely taking days off here and there and I thought okay. That's good at least take the time. When you can just SORTA, recharge recover and then get back at it right there with you. That's our show. I'm Amy Bernstein I'm Amy Gallo editorial and production team is Amanda Kersee Marine Hoke at Buckholtz Mary do Kina. Toby Mac Erica trucks. And Robert Thanks for listening, take good care.

Kathleen Mcginn DC Amy Bernstein Harvard Business Review WanNa Harvard Business School Career Mobility founder and CEO Clayton Christianson Zambia HP S Viktor HP Associate Dean for Faculty Dev Toby Mac professor intern US ticky Amy Gallon
Podcast: Transhumanism and the Image of God, with Jacob Shatzer

The BreakPoint Podcast

30:57 min | 2 years ago

Podcast: Transhumanism and the Image of God, with Jacob Shatzer

"Every once in a while when I'm speaking out and about I find myself going, I can't believe I'm talking about this and today's conversation on the breakpoint podcast. We might get into some of those moments where we're talking about some some pretty incredible stuff that the technological future holds for us. Welcome to the break point podcast. My guest today is Jacob Schatzer Jakup PHD from Marquette university in assisted professor and associate dean in the school of the allergy admissions at union university and being at union, in fact in the acknowledgments of a new book that he has written. He mentions a name and name the of a guy that we've had here on the break point podcast before a guy that had a big influence in my thinking about the relationship of theology and culture, especially when it comes to what it means to be human and technology, and that's been Mitchell. Jacob sounds like Ben had a little bit of an influence on your life as well. Yeah. Absolutely. Ben is one of the great joy. Of being at union university is to to get to be just down the hall from Ben Mitchell, and indeed Ben has been a major influence on my life over the past decade or so, including even my choice to to attend in study at Marquette. Well, you know, one of the Ben I think was the first person that ever introduced me to the very term trans humanism in your book is called trans humanism and the image of God. And really it was that journey into this emerging the emerging challenges of technology, and how fast technology was running ahead of our ethics on all kinds of levels. And how deeply it was integrating with all of live that made me start thinking about worldview, not just in terms of our beliefs about the classic. Where did we come from? You know, what's wrong with the world. How do we fix it? And you know, what gives meaning and purpose alive, but added that category. What's a human person because really in our technological impulse? You see? A pretty dramatic set of assumptions about what a human being is. And it it's nothing like the image of God. And that's where I wanna talk about today. Your book does a great job of that. Again. The book is called trans humanism and the image of God, today's technology and the future of Christian discipleship that some people are going to be listening your Jacob and thinking trains. Unisom. What are you guys talking about particularly that? We're a TRAN is is a little bit loaded in our cultural moment. So I think we need to define it. But you start the book with a terrific illustration of how the kind of vision of the future that we owe. To the Jetsons is not really that's not really the future that we're actually heading into. And it's a very important distinction. So I'm hoping that you can kind of walk us through. Why the Jetsons were wrong as a way of defining trains humanism force? Yeah. Absolutely. So so there's this this book by Michael best called make way for the superhumans in which he deals with with some of these changes. The bio enhancement and things like that. And in that book, he talks about the Jetsons fallacy, which I just found to be a profoundly helpful illustration of this problem that I think that we fall into now, according to to best the Jetsons fallacy is this idea that the future will be populated by wonderful technology. Amazing things flying cars robots that do our housework things like that. But humans will be basically the same. If you have watched any episodes of the Jetsons. It's very similar to two other sitcoms of you know, the foibles that the humans it into. They're basically the same even distantly in the future of the reason that Bess calls this fallacy is because he argues not from a Christian perspective. But just from a secular perspective that the technology is gonna profoundly change us. And so in the future, we're not just going to be the same. But with household robots? We're going to be very different. And that's the vision of trans humanism, so just defined the term force. Yeah. So trans humanism is the idea that we are in the process of changing ourselves to something beyond what we currently define as human. So so trans humanism is this is basically the philosophical perspective that this change is inevitable. It's good at something that we should take control of and pursue in order to become who we think we need to be when I don't know a lot of people are listening to this going. Why are we talking about this? This doesn't impact me. I don't believe that. I don't think that. But there is a level of trans humanist impulse that has deeply embedded our culture. And and and really even in that word, you can hear the worldview implications. Right. So in a sense, this is a very consistent vision for the future with a Darwinian evolutionary kind of story of the world. Right. That that that really, you know, the fittest survive, and we figure out how to adapt. And then, you know species we move on past certain species of these species, become better and better and better. But at this point, there's there's a level of kind of controlling the evolutionary process to take us beyond or so that we can transcend our human is would that be an accurate way to say it? Yeah. Absolutely. So there there are certainly elements of trans humanism that Christians would immediately disagree with most Christians would immediately disagree with in America today. And that's actually why think that trans humanism is something that we need to pay attention to when we first hear about it. We think okay, it's it's devoted to this Darwinian evolutionary perspective that thinks that there's there's not really any such thing as human per se to be human is just to be changing. And so we would say well we disagree with that. We think that there is something about being human rooted in the image of God. So we must not be trans human. And then we also think about these sci-fi scenarios that are that are made popular in various movies at Netflix shows and TV shows, you know, black mirror, for instance, where they're these stope, Ian, future realities where perhaps people have been uploaded into machines, or whatever the case may be. And we think oh, I certainly don't want that. I must not be trans human. But it's these worldview implications that you mentioned that I think are so important because I think when we begin to peel back the way that we actually engage with technology today. We're actually all more trans human than we think we are and many of the ways that we engage with technology are actually closer to the way a trans humanist would engage with technology that may be an orthodox Christian. Should I'm gonna get to those ways because that's a huge huge part of the inevitability thesis. That's part of the kind of the trains human his vision is that we're not going to say no to technology, and it's it's. Clear that most of us aren't going to say, no to technology, but talk a little bit about the sorts of technologies. Ultimately that some of these visionaries believe would take beyond our human future. We you mentioned some of the movie things, but the in terms of downloading into machines and technology, and so on there's also the genetic factor being able you know to kinda build better humans walk us through some of the technologies that are kind of in route right now that are kind of driving us to this future. Yeah. So so what I try to do in the book as I try to walk from kind of the closest to what we would consider human to the furthest away and kinda to built this spectrum with kind of three steps. So in the first step, I talk about what transhumance referred to as morphological freedom, which is just the the freedom. The ability to change whatever it is about. Ourselves that we want to change. Now, this this can use all kinds of current technologies. I mean, one of the examples that I draw a lot is seemingly absurd example. But it's the idea that if somebody wanted to have a robotic tail implanted into them so that they could have a tail they should have the freedom to have a tale. Right. So this, of course, few of us probably think we want to tail so that's it seems absurd, but there are all sorts of technologies that are beginning to merge. The just kind of out on machine features to the human body, whether that's implantable chips, or whether that's just a changing other aspects of of our body for enhancement the second step. Then is kind of more extreme versions of that where it might be kind of the emerging between human and machine through technologies that that. The technical term that is often used as a hibernate or in a leading to augmented reality, which basically means we we merge ourselves with machines to such a degree that the way we interact with the world fundamentally changes. So this can be anything from we might encounter it as wearable technology, you know, Google glass, which was in the news more few years ago. Ways that technology can just be merged with our everyday reality. And then of course, there's kind of the the ultimate extreme of of mind. Uploading or uploading our consciousness into machines, which is something that that technologically experts still disagree on whether that's even possible or or how it might be achieved or what it would do. But those are kind of the three steps that. I try to highlight that I think we can kind of connect some different technologies to as far as what's coming. It's always fun to be a futurist in two guests. I think that that actually I tried the not guess very much simply because I think that the real problem is what faces us today, and it's how we choose to interact with what we actually can interact with today that will shape us into the type of people that we will be in the future. When those new realities are possible. The realities that we're not even sure of so as far as I guess, what some of those current technologies would be I think one of the most important technologies that we all interact with day to day is is the smartphone. Then the degree to which we are actually. Using the smartphone to augment our reality. And so much of our our being is through a phone or connected to this device. I think that the wearable the Google glass like I mentioned earlier that kind of overlay that's bits becoming more and more possible. As the very way we look at it and see the world will be overlaid with technology. I think is is significant as well in. And even the way we think about I don't I don't deal with this a lot in the book. But I think if if something I want to explore further, and that's just the what's available to us with pharmaceuticals the way drugs that that people can fairly easily obtain whether they're using them for medical purposes or off label purposes can change the way that we are in the way that we live and move, and we also have the biological aspect. Right. I mean, crisper technology was in the news because of the report. Coming out from the Chinese scientists thinks. Doctor. He I think is what was his name kind of genetic manipulation and the promises that that holds. But, but I think you're right that you to most transhumance Mr. coming at it from artificial intelligence, computer technology integration with machine sort of way. One of the interesting things to me is again when I first heard about this. You know, you kind of have this image of guys in their basements that are trying to do all kinds of crazy things and not getting forward. But then you start seeing kind of the list if people who've actually signed on and call themselves, you know, especially in the early days. I mean, this is fifteen twenty years ago who embrace this term who really saw their role in technological development as being a driving this future forward. And you're talking about, you know, chief researchers, you know, VP's at, you know, major tech companies, I mean, Google Microsoft, and so on so this isn't a kind of those kind of really full. Fully advocating this kind of new future. They're not just guys in their moms basements, are they? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's a there was an article in Christianity today now about three years ago called the imago day mates super human potential, and I in this article names people like Mark Zuckerberg Sergei Brin Larry page of Google on. I mean, these are people who are investing billions of dollars into the these innovations in these are these are people who are connected to things that we use every day. So even if we think that we are not on with that project of the fact that we are connected to it might mean that that some of our data is being used in the service of that kind of a project or those sorts of things. So so again that that I think you you highlight that well part of the problem with trans humanism is we think it's just so fringe and part of why I wrote this book and why I was interested in this book is not because I think I'm going to completely solve it. One hundred percent and close it in. Everything, but I just wanna draw people's attention to it because I think it has profound worldview implications, it has profound discipleship implications. In the way, we make these choices today is going to shape who we are. And who are children are in ten twenty twenty five years when some of these more extreme options perhaps become available. My guest on. Today's breakpoint podcast is Jacob Schatzer. He's a professor and associate dean in the school of theology. Admission at union university in his new book is called trans humanism and the image of God. And. Let's jump in Jacob to something. We started talking about earlier, which is look you can say this isn't me this isn't part of my life. I certainly that's fringe that's out there. But you know, this is a slow journey in a direction that has we've been on this trajectory a society for a long time. I remember Saturday Night Live. There was an opening monologue. Just I think last year on if you saw this and trying to member the guy's name, I'm blanking out on it. But he basically said, do you know how much time we spend today proving to robots that were not robots? It was just as funny line. You know, like every time we get on a website. You know, are you a robot and we're talking to a robot that is betting us. So that we can get on a website as a real human. So I mean, this is just part of our lives in the there's a level of technological habits that that we've kind of embraced. You know? I think about the times I used to drive around the country with a map, I could not lose. Really do that. I mean, I I, you know, you just get so reliant on the convenience, and the ease of technology, and you know, it's slowly integrates, more and more and more. But we're not going back. That's the hard part. Right. So what are the habits that we need to to to pay close attention to? And what are what are the things that we need to embrace? You know, there's all kinds of where do we draw the line questions when it comes to us and technology. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, I think at some level there, these these larger things that I think are are easier for us to still maintain that something that we should stay away from, you know, the the sacredness of the womb and staying away from crisper technology and things like that. I think seem more obvious. But I think when it comes to some of these more everyday realities that we face now, it's a little more difficult than that. Because I don't think we can quite make a list and say this one you should you should never use this. One. You you always should we also don't wanna fall into the trap of thinking that technology is neutral. Right. So that's one thing that I try to draw out in in in this work and really help people. See is that technology is not neutral. We can't just pretend that we are super powerful and can always just choose to use tools for good or evil. There's some truth to that. We recognize in our daily reality, we face choices that we know I could use this and do bad I could use this in do good. But we fail to see that the technology. It does it does shape us a little bit. It does nudge us in in certain directions. One of my favorite quotes that I found in doing research for this book is by a journalist named Michael Harris who in his book the end of absence. He writes, quote, every technology will alienate you from some part of your life. That is it's. My job your job is to notice. I notice the difference. And then every time choose and what I think Harris draws out there that it's so important to to help us e that technology is not neutral. It is going to shape us. It is going to nudge us in directions. And if we ignore that, we are just being nudged, and sometimes it's much stronger than that is more and more news comes out about how much a social networking and things like that it is incorporating behavior modification and ads and all those sorts of things it's more than nudging. We're starting to realize that. And so we we have to notice the difference that tuck technology makes and then we have to choose and one of the good news. One of the aspects of good news about the Christian tradition. I think is that we actually have something substantive to help us make choices it's not simply who do we want to be? Hey, let's just figure this out for ourselves. But we have a a God who. Took on flesh dwelt among us. We have we have Christ to look to to shape our values to shape what it means to be human. And then we can begin to negotiate together in Christian communities in families. How our technology is nudging toward or away from Christ likeness rather than this blanket notion of progress or something like that. Well, it's that blanket notion of progress, I want to talk about because I think the world view implications. We talked about it, you know, in terms of the question of origin. You know in the kind of the evolutionary narrative that kind of our trenching in this impulses. Just come flow right along with. But there is a utopian impulse here too. Right. I mean that that we're gonna use technology. Well, that it's always going to make it better. That better is the definition of better is either that we have more control or that things are more convenient. And I love that idea of a trade off that every time you. Brace a technology. You're losing control over something. Or you're being alienated from something? That's that's very important. I think it's a very important point. And it also tells us how much our worldview was shaped in our culture how to buy this utopian narrative. And you know, I mean, we just came out of the twentieth century. What could go wrong with utopianism? Right. I mean, there's there's a blind spots that are created, you know, throughout the throughout the project process in the book, you you make a distinction to that. I thought was really helpful which was the distinction between a stewardship and control of. I think it was control. You might have used a different word. But I often think about Craig gays way of the modern world in his book where he talks about kind of the impulsive secularization is that we're in control the world, the world's a place of our own making which is a very different impulse than stewardship talk about the difference. There the between those two concepts or whatever word it was that you used in the books or if I. Just put a word in your mouth. Yeah. No, no control is an incredibly important term. I think for Christian discipleship today. And and first of all Craig gay has been someone who's influential on my thinking as well. I read that that book as a senior in college. And it changed the way I thought about worldview, and actually he just published a book on technology called modern technology in the human future that came out last year that that's quite good as well. And this notion of control, I actually I wrote my my dissertation on theologian named AJ Conyers who was a founding faculty member of true at seminary. And Conyers was someone who who is very astute at analyzing the modern world, and some of the the the lies that the modern world disciples into in the notion of control is something that he developed quite a bit this idea that that we can get to know the world around us. So that we can control the world. We can control our lives in. And this is the narrative of technology today that we just we we don't realize that control is a bad word in many ways, we Christians don't live with the hope that we can finally get in control. We live with the hope that we worship a God who is in control that we submit ourselves to to a Lord who is in control of the universe. It is good news Christians that we are not in control that another is in control. Now that of course, doesn't throw out that we are responsible moral agents who do have some limited control that got gives us those those are important things. I don't want to deny that. But we live in a world that just assumes more control equals better. And that's the way technology is evaluated. That's one of the way that ways that that the narrative of progress is told control is always good. So if something gives us more control over ourselves over our environment over others. That's a good thing. And. So I think part of what we have to do is just call this. This this issue to mind and realize that there there are words that we should be careful of of in teaching one of my favorite classes to teach his Christian doctrine. And then I've taught at a few different universities, and one of the things I try to do with students is teach them words to be allergic to and one of the words that they of course, learned to be allergic to when we talk about the trinity is to never say that there are three parts of God. I tell them don't use the word parts when you hear the word parts. Just just don't use that. And it's funny because during the course, I'd I noticed that students start not wanting to use the word parts at all ever, they'll catch themselves even an appropriate context because they remember, oh, that's a word. I'm supposed to watch out for. And I think that as Christians today as we try to be faithful with the technology in the good that technology can do control is one of those words that we need to develop. Maybe not an allergy to. Maybe not a complete suspicion of. But at least more care in noticing and thinking carefully about. Yeah. I think that's exactly right. I mean, you think about the the March across America right now, doctor assisted suicide in the March across the west of all kinds of kind of doctrine to death in one way or another. And it's really these kind of myths of control inconvenience, especially I think that poisoned the well. And this is where it directly impacts are thinking about what it means to be human. What makes someone a a person value? What's a good life? What's a life worth living is if you lose control and your inconvenient that that in in all of our minds kind of as well west, and it's not just technology. It's also I think about consumerism and are kind of addiction to stuff, and we want stuff that makes our life. You know, more convenient and puts us in control that that's the frilly has a kind of a heart shaping vision shaping influence, and it drives all kinds of other ethical issues. It seems to me. In our culture. Gap -solutely. So I got a call right in the middle of that thought. So it didn't end into questions if you if you play that transition up that would be fun. So. The had nothing dad there. Okay. We'll keep going head on the news is all of this will be all this will be edited. Yeah. I will let me think where I wanted to go next. I'll just do another transition. Steve my guest is Jacob Schatzer. He's a professor of at the school. If the admissions at union university, and the author of a new book trains humanism and the image of God. And Jacob we just kind of pushing to the end of our time. But I I guess I just want to ask you this. What what would you, you know, I hate to say, you know, give three things or four or five things to Christians on how they can navigate this kind of new world and develop better habits and so on because that kind of smacks of control like if you do these three things you'll get the result, you're looking for. But what do you think let me put it this way? Then what is what is faithful Christian living and discipleship look like in a culture, that's in many ways, largely embrace this transhumance future. Yeah. So I think that right. One of the check. Challenge is that as soon as we think that we have three steps that we can take we're actually falling into a technological solution to a deeper problem. And so at some level what I want to to help people see is to just notice. And I don't know if noticing is a habit, but I just I just want to help all of us insert more distance between ourselves and our technology as much as we can and to invite critique from others. You know, oftentimes, it's it's the people that were around most in our life. Whether it's our family or colleagues at work or or friends at church, who if we had an honest conversation with they might be able to point out some ways that technology is is forming us to be a worse community members worst people and be willing to ask those questions be willing to hear those answers and be willing to think critically. So I think notice is one one thing that we can we can, cultivate, a another is to just be imagined active. We tend to think that there's an inevitability to to it. I mean, and you mentioned earlier in the podcast. We can't rewind right? We can't rewind and and go back to the way things were fifty years ago. And I think that's certainly true. We can't do that. We don't wanna make up the answer. But at the same time, we don't want to assume that we know what fifty years from now is going to be and that we have to go along the trail to that. And so even the use of smartphones. When I started this research in started writing this book a few years ago, you know, smartphones were still on the rise. And it was only in the later stages of writing this book that the research began to come out showing a some of the downsides to screen screen time for children, for instance. And even now it's kind of I have four young children. And and I feel like now there's there's more a critique among parents of how much screen time they should allow their kids. Whereas when my oldest who's now. Now almost ten when he was really young there. There was just a look they're all these games gets can play on ipads who. But today, there's there's it's not quite like that many. Parents are ereck nizing there are problems associated with that. And so I think that as studies come out and show more of a complex picture of what screen time does to us. I do think people are going to begin to imagine other ways of negotiating, our technological reality. And so I I know that waiting and depending on studies is probably another technological problem too. I don't think we have to wait for the studies to come out. In fact, one of the authors that I read basically said look there are a lot of alarming things about screen time. If you wanna wait for all the studies to come out to really show, it you're gonna need to wait ten or twenty years for the data to come in. And your kids are going to be all grown up. So if you want to wait and see wait and see, but maybe change. And so I think that there's already some movement where people are beginning to. Imagine a different way. So I think Christians should noticed notice. Christians should imagine a different ways of being in in Christians should finally focus on God's word and on God's people and on being the church. The technology does not change the call to be conformed to the image of Christ connected to a body of God's people in a local place in a local expression. So I think to the degree that technology makes us think we can stop going to church or stop up being part of a local body. We should realize that that is drawing away from God's plan for discipleship. God's plan for making us into the image of Christ, which is through the body of Christ. And and being a part of it. So I think if we if we do those things if we notice if we imagine if we focus on what God has given Christians for centuries for discipleship and growth in Christ, Christ likeness that'll put us in a in a better position to be faithful to cry. Snot faithful to this notion of progress or control. Let's drift way to encourage us here at the end Jacob technology gives us so many shortcuts, but it doesn't provide a shortcut to following Christ. It doesn't provide a shortcut to being fully formed into the image of Christ. So a great book thanks for writing in. I I really mean that it's a topic that is just out of sight outta mind for so many people would it. But it really does reveal. I think you've done a great job revealing this trajectory that we're on in our embrace of the technologies that around us again the books called trans humanism and the image of God trans humanism and the image of God. If you come to breakpoint dot ORG, click on the homepage showed the button there that says resources mentioned on the radio and podcasts I'm willing to this book as well. As some other ways that you can follow the work of Jacob Schatzer. He's the author of this book and professor in associate dean at union university. And Jacob it's been a great conversation. Thanks for right in the book. And thanks for joining us on the break point. Cast. Yes. Thank you. John. I appreciate the opportunity. I appreciate your ministry.

Jacob union university professor Jacob Schatzer Google Ben Mitchell associate dean America Jacob technology Jacob Schatzer Jakup PHD Michael Harris Saturday Night Live Michael best Netflix AJ Conyers Craig Marquette Marquette university Bess
Deborah Estrin on Small Data

Good Code

22:34 min | 2 years ago

Deborah Estrin on Small Data

"You might have a locally system with native plants and animals flora and fauna. And when you have invasive species, that sometimes eat up all the nutrients and take up all the water and crowd out, and you end up with less ecological diversity. And I feel the same way about technology. Every day, we check our emails. We use maps, owner phones. We might order food, and shove online or check into our local gym in up and each and every one of these actions leave traces that gave away a lot of information about our lives kinda creepy if we think about it in terms of privacy, our location, data alone can often help identify. But what if we could use these data, but good to improve our health. That's what we're talking about today. Welcome to good code a weekly podcast on ethics in our digital world. My name is she in Lebanon, and I'm your host. And yes, I'm still French, our guest today is Deborah estrin. You probably heard of her last year, when she won the so called genius grant from the MacArthur foundation. She's an associate dean and professor of computer science at Cornell tech, and she's best known for her work on wait for it smoke. Oh, data we sat with her at Cornell tech on Roosevelt island last November. What I mean by small data is really small and data and really any bulls one data and that just means that the relevance of data about an individual over time, potentially different data of different types, and from many different sources is as interesting, not instead of large end data. So when people were for it to big data. They usually mean data from many individuals and data from many individuals is very important. It is a big deal. It is hyped, but it's deserving of hype. I do think there is some balance of attention. That would be healthy this healthy by also paying attention to data about an individual over time. And what can you learn for that individual? So what is it concretely? Okay. Certainly slow. Small data is the collection of data that I generate in the world, some of which are really digital traces digital breadcrumbs. Sometimes people referred to them a for it to them as digital exhaust. It has all kinds of useful terms that when you go online to search the history of your search terms when you write Email or slack messages or text messages, the nature of the language you use whether it's sentiment analysis to the extent of your vocabulary to grammatical complexity when you walk around in the world, go to work spend time on weekends. It's where you spend time how much time you spend out of the house, how that diurnal pattern shifts over time, how much sleep you get when you sleep, the quality of that sleep. If you have a bedside or a wearable, that helps understand the quality of that sleep, everything from the steps we take to the words we use to the questions. We asked to the social interactions, we have to the money we spend to the food. We buy. So it's all the traces will leave on the internet, the digital platforms that we on our Mobile's through our wearables through our Alexis. Yes. The, the way we walk in whether or not we're outside a lot or that entails. We're using certain apps. Right. Not everyone. Not really. I mean that used to be the case, but your smartphone, I do, do you know anyone who doesn't have a smartphone out, really not even my parents? Okay. Do you use Google maps? I do. Okay. So most people because it's tremendously convenient use location services. You can immediately have to thoughts and too much nor actions. Some people only have one, which might have to do with concern about that being something that is just then generally known in public and whether you call it privacy civil liberty, whether you call it a key to democracy. Many people will speak at our correct. I believe in the importance of protecting our ability to be in the world act in the world meet in the world, convene in a way, that is known to us in those with whom we choose to share it and not to others at the same time, if you're trying to understand whether a treatment for lower back pain, or rheumatoid arthritis or MS, or depression is. Actually effective for you. Whether you're trying to titrate that medication or the physical therapy and find out if something is working, there's no better signal for that than how you are in the world, because it's very hard for an individual to tell whether they're feeling ten percent better. And yet, that's a very important signal for a kind of therapy, or regimen. That's really going to be the right. One for you over time. If there was one source of information that people could use to help really provide the right kind of feedback around a whole range of behaviors and health related things that are relevant to them, it would be that location trace, if there's one source of information that I'm most concerned about people, not having general control over who gets access to that information if that location, trace these digital bread. Crimea said they could give you two sentiments they have utility and they have problematic use. We should now have some choice in how we design the uses of these technologies in the level of sharing of the underlying data. And I think the community is starting to address designing the underlying systems in designing the applications and very importantly, designing God forbid, the regulation, and the law, that's needed because none of this is doable, just with technology. Of course, we need law. You can't install apps on your phone that listened to your phone calls. Why don't we have those same laws in terms of recording location? There are lots of things that concern me in the world right now. This is one of them, I want to allow people to get access to the best form of preventative health and healthcare. Which in this day and age means healthcare, that is fitting to them, and that is about their family history, their life history. And at the same time to do it in such a way and build the systems and practices in regulations that have Stu that in a way that protects civil liberties. When I turn on my location Trat by location services in order to use a map to navigate. Why do I have to agree that my location trace is going to be used for other things as well? The once I share it beyond that transaction in, if I do that I should further. No, give me the option to pay some micro sent in order to not be advertised to our model. Many apps have a Freeman right now their problems as well with always having to pay for privacy, but we can't even pay for privacy. Can we build even in this building? We have some experimental software in place that even with location service. We have find grain location services throughout the building that you could use it for services that are useful to you, or a little lunch message that goes out when you're down in the cafe at a certain time of day when you're happy for people to find you. Whatever these little appetizer, but you should be able to do that without saying, okay the campus. My employer contract me at all times. So we also were exploring how do you build systems that have finer granularity of control and that data that's collected is used in the context of the specific transaction. You're trying to do that specific context, not more generally, because in fact, we could design our systems that way five years ago, even startups needed to have a story that they were generating data that they could leverage sort of the standard was this kind of two faced market. I give you something that grabs you in and I- monetize the data you generate right by now. It's like tried in an old story it wasn't at one time. It was like. This is the way I'd only we need to do that anymore. I think we can move on from that in terms of building useful apps services and businesses how just to get back to health from in mobile yards. Disciplinary health, those data seem are seemingly, an interesting at how can make can you give us just a concrete example of how they can shed light on your health. So first of all, they're just clinical care, we don't have formula by which to say exactly what medication and at which dose, are you going to respond well to antidepressant, and that is a long way off. It isn't impure ago process, they start you off at a dose. It's relatively conservative. It's not instantaneous that process doesn't have a Blad tasked or blood pressure, tasked or something that objectively measures and that's true for pain. So we need something to help us close. The feedback loop encourage the clinician and give them the right signal as this working encourage the individual to see that even if they can't perceive that their ten percent unless pain they can see that they're actually doing better in their can encourage them to proceed, and then also to contribute to the research of what actually works in for who would win because not everything works, the same individual so pain depression, depression, in hostage suicide, I guess I know that some companies are using AI to work on that as a offering that small data could be used for you. Nothing that I mentioned to you was diagnostic. It's not a coincidence in order to do something diagnostic, you need. Big data suicide prevention is a little bit of a diagnostic now foreign individual who has had been doing this for a while and has had a severe depression in not for that individual detecting that they've relapsed. Or somebody perhaps has been diagnosed as BI polar and maybe detecting, they're entering. A depressive episode that to me is much closer at hand in the small Batur more relevant rather than first time, onset of psychosis, or, or suicide prevention, which I think, is more of a, a big data question. And yes, has all the two edges has the two edges of that same sort, people that could be a saved in and helped through that crisis. And yet, the concern that if something is diagnostic, it can be used in all of your interactions, outside of the context in which you thought you were having that interaction. And so it's, it's really what's happening outside of the doctor's office in will. It's measuring your life eight years. Although when you go and see a doctor, and you come back in this model of incremental care, they ask you. How have you been are you feeling better? Maybe you'll fill out some history of how you were over. So in some sense, it has been brought in is a part of clinical care, although it's usually based on retrospective self report, the date. Aren't being generated in the doctor's office? But these data will come into the doctor's office or they'll never be part of clinical picture in self report is very subjective. And subjective is important. Somebody's perception is important. I just it's not a Sieff isn't even for that individual because it might be so dominated by how they felt yesterday as opposed to how they felt two weeks ago, and then it gives the wrong signal and they won't get as good of care. So I, I read that the small data lab here at grant you where you're trying to come up with big insights with small data, and is a some talk title. What are those figures is they'll always find the individual? They're all the things that we just talked about are there, some, yes. So big also. They're big insights for that individual on for treating people because individuals in the end our what we treat. Now over time, we will gain insights about better additional courses of treatment, or things to be things to be. Area for the ride secrets of treatments because we'll learn we'll do the larger big end data across the small end at just gonna ask you about you're talking about improving the quality of life of people basically, but one person at a time be about pain, or chronic disease, or what about communities that might not have access to mobile technology because it's all about technologies. I'm thinking, not just poor communities may be, but also the elderly at this point, the biggest digital divide divide eight not gender and not even let's, let's stay in the US for now, at only because I know the US best smartphones are pretty much pervasive aside from age. Whereas when we started doing this stuff, which was more than over a decade ago, then it was valid question to say, most people only have text messaging, it was a valid question, but in retrospect misguided since by the time. Would have worked out the techniques. So many more people had had smartphones. And while is still in use nobody for the most part, just text messaging, so I don't think that the digital divide question is relevant with respect to lower resource communities and what about elderly care Kozara Seren with all of the thing entirely van Thailand Thailand, Harley? And so, for the most part, I think the better approach there is to develop tools for caregivers the formal caregivers and the informal caregivers as in the family members to me, your, your work is about empowerment about turning our addictions, basically, to digital technologies into a positive force could then the dependence, I, I use the word addiction carefully. There are things that are really addictions. And we are dealing with a lot of them in our society now, but I think it's a kind of a dependence, but go now you get your weekly report of your screen us, and I find that really interesting. I think we'll all concerned Nate might become. We might realize ten years from now. As an addiction, and there was an addiction crisis. Yes. Yes. My question is, do you think your work could also help curb the addiction as well as you're using it could allow curb this shirt the word addiction has particular meanings to it? It tackle the probably the closest thing would be the endorphin hit of that checking that checking process of the screen, but there are many other sources of digital traces that don't aren't necessarily like Google maps is not an addiction issue. That's all I was trying to differentiate. But so we have done some work. I've had behavioral economists post doc, in my lap of the past couple of years, Michael, Sobolev, and one of the things that he ended a PHD student now Fabien, okay, did was to look at digital vibrations that are forms of a form of feedback, you set a goal for yourself of how frequently you wanna check her how much you want to check those social feeds, and it just gives you a, a mild, kind of vibrating. Reminder, as you exceed that level in the same way that you said, you started looking at your weekly screens. It helps you be more self-aware might help you set some goals, and planning notions for the week ahead. Then these more real time things can help you be mindful dislike, we, we noticed how much of our battery, we've depleted during the course of the day, sort of how much of our quota of that distracted time we've spent there are very important ways that individuals behaviors that they aspire to how do we stab with those behaviors we aspire to its initially a struggle. So how do we initially cut it whether it is sugar. Okay. Or whether it is emailer, Facebook. Checking the technologists can help us do that says my ass ration-. This is hi. Wanna try to manage it. Check my Facebook feed, this much less often, and slowly get to a point where I'm overall healthier, in the place where I wanna be. And so then what about the people that might really want to take that path really wanna disconnect decrease their screen time their use of, of MO. And even try to find ways to clutter the space and make noise so that there, the be followed. I'm thinking of escape Shen down. So what about these people may be? We can thing that they will be more and more of them in a world where trying to make sense of how her dealing with Belgian so worried about some of the word about that. How will they be treated for their pain in there? So first of all, that's great second of all when you do that. The last thing I'm worried about is that you're making it harder to get some of these signals back. There are ways to think about somebody knowingly compensating. Right. If you're in a period of time of trying to figure something out right there are ways of when you office gate to retain how your office skating so that maybe you are able to get back some signal from that office, skated signal. So all very interesting. I only wish that, that was a big enough challenge for us to actually. Yeah. Take on. You receive the very famous. I know the MacArthur foundation doesn't wanna call genius 'cause they discussed the, the word genius itself out, you just got this really great grand that basically, gives you money over five years to do whatever you want with it, naturally attached. No requests. Can I just ask you, if you have any idea of what you will want to explore with it where you wanna use that I don't know, yet I still have surprised when somebody says it, and this is an incredible gift about things that I can now plan to do. And I don't know what they are in any specific. I do believe in mental accounting in this context. Meaning that this is a this isn't just money that goes in with other money. This is special money that for me is a gift and they and license and a commitment to do something that has a public good notion with it of something, I wouldn't do otherwise and something that, of course, it makes sense for me to do relative to somebody else. So I'm not going to go off. Often do something that, that is completely out of my wheelhouse, because that wouldn't be very good use of the of the money for the world. Many things we've talked about interest may from these data architectures that allow for a more procreate use over time and contextual of data things around the aging, things around the food system and giving myself time to figure out what that will be I like to ask my guests if they're optimistic about technology really improving in your case, I will take quality of life, which is what you're working on most naggus, most people, I have are very optimistic because they wouldn't be that feeling the word the word optimistic is a predictive term and, you know, my -bility to believe that good will happen. That's too hard. If he asked me for years ago, I would've just said, yes, my ability to have faith in my belly predict what the world will choose to do that rug pulled out from under me. I can't so I am determined to try to do good in the world. I'm not pessimistic. I'm not beaten back by, but I no longer have the arrogance of Optimus, you know, the last few years have made me far more. Humble than optimist politically, the political buffet of the world. Yeah. The state of the body. And if there was one thing you could change a now be my last question in the way we interact with technology or the way we think about technology, or the way we approach new to colleges be people like you who do research, or the people who built it or the people who use it consume it if there was one thing you could change. What would that be? I wish there were more diversity on not only diversity of individuals around but diversity of objectives and diversity of ways of creating technologies, the dominance of, of scaling, and that everything that succeeds in the world has to be at large scale when it comes to technology, I find very unfortunate. There are so many niche specialized tools and applications that could be self sustaining, but can't survive. I. I think of it a little bit like the health of ecosystems you might have a locally consistent with native plants and animals flora and fauna. And when you have invasive species, that sometimes eat up all the nutrients and take up all the water in crowd out, and you end up with less ecological diversity, and I feel the same way about technology that I would like to see more diversity and smaller scale tools, and services in things that are more niche oriented, and I worry that the way our technology market in the dominance of big tax crowds that out. Okay. Deborah estrin thinking so much on you probably I'm probably the only one you brought to tears. Until now. It's we always need a I thank you so much. That was good code. This podcast is produced posted an edited by yours truly in collaboration with Cornell tax digital life initiative. They be dot tree is our mix engineer. So he saw her neck is on music composer. Thanks for listening. And if you liked it take a minute to tell a friend, perhaps, the one who's obsessed with black mirror, and all the ways in which -nology could go wrong. I'm sure they'll like it. And as you come back next week.

Deborah estrin MacArthur foundation depression Cornell tech Roosevelt island Facebook US Lebanon Trat associate dean Crimea Stu Freeman
Show 1141: Which Health Risks Should You Worry About?

People's Pharmacy

58:55 min | 2 years ago

Show 1141: Which Health Risks Should You Worry About?

"The people's pharmacy podcast is sponsored by the brain gauge developed by neuroscientists at the university of North Carolina to study brain function across a wide range of applications including aging and traumatic brain injury, the brain gauge, translates state of the art neuroscience into easy to use methods that let you take control of your brain health now. Available for home research and clinical, applications, find out more at gauge your brain dot com. Do you ever? Get fed up with scary health headlines about the risks of coffee wine or bacon. How can you make sense of them? This is the people's pharmacy with Terry. And Joe Graydon. Dr Aaron Carroll is a pediatrician and expert on health research and policy. He'll offer us advice on making sense of health risks. We know the sun raises your risk of skin cancer. No, one says never go out in the sun. They say take proper precautions and think about how much doing because you don't want to raise your risk too much. Putting scary statistics into perspective requires more than a headline distinguishing between relative risk and absolute risk is critical to making informed decisions coming up on the people's pharmacy. How did tell which risks you should worry about first this news? In the people's pharmacy hills, headlines, popular blood pressure. Medications called ace inhibitors have been associated with an increased risk of lung cancer. Lisin appeal is the most prescribed drug in the United States over one hundred thirty million prescriptions for this, Angie. Tencent. Converting enzyme inhibitor are dispensed annually that doesn't take into account. Other ace inhibitors such as bananas Apprel capped Apprel, and now Apprel ram Apprel and Quinn Apprel such drugs are very effective at lowering blood pressure. But a new study raises questions about the safety of long-term use the investigators collected data on nearly one million hypertensive patients in the UK between nineteen eighty eight and two thousand fifteen taking an ace inhibitor was associated with a fourteen percent increased risk of lung cancer. This only became detectable after five years of us. The longer people took such drugs, the greater the risk after ten years the risk increased to thirty one percent, the authors point out that although the absolute risk of developing. Lung cancer is very small so many people are taking these medications that the number of patients affected could be quite large. It's difficult to diagnose Alzheimer's disease in this early course. In fact, a definitive diagnosis has only been available upon autopsy. Now, scientists have found markers of the disease that can be seen in the retina of the eye even before people notice serious memory loss. The noninvasive test called optical, coherence, tomography and geography could be done by an ophthalmologist and is able to distinguish between people with mild cognitive impairment, and those who progress to Alzheimer disease in Alzheimer's disease. The retina has fewer blood vessels and the inner layer is thinner. These observations were made independently by two separate teams of researchers and presented at the annual meeting of the American Academy of the Malla. Gee, it's been almost two decades since the FDA approved a pill to treat influenza that was Ozil town of ear also known as tamiflu last week the agency approved a new flu pill Zo flu can be taken by teens and adults who have had symptoms for less than two days, and it shortens the duration of flu symptoms by more than a day patients take just one pill instead of a series of pills. So it is much more convenient than other flu treatments so flu so works on a completely different violence. I'm than tamiflu in relentless so flu viruses, have not yet developed resistance side effects. Abso- flus include diarrhea bronchitis. Nausea and sign you side. His public health officials stress that antiviral drugs do not replace vaccination as. As the first line of defense against influenza people with mildly. Elevated blood pressure are usually given a prescription for an anti hypertensive medicine. However, previous studies haven't really demonstrated whether such drugs prevent cardiovascular complications in low risk patients. British researchers reviewed long-term medical records of adults with mild, hypertension. They define that. As blood pressure between one forty over ninety and one fifty nine over ninety nine without medication. More than nineteen thousand people. Taking blood pressure pills were compared to nineteen thousand other patients with similar blood pressure. But not taking medicine during the nearly six year follow up period, they found no evidence that treatment prevents cardiovascular disease or death. The medications did have side effects. However, most notably low blood pressure fainting electrolyte imbalance and acute kidney injury. The off. Authors conclude this pre specified analysis found no evidence to support guideline recommendations that encourage initiation of treatment in patients with low risk mild, hypertension, gum disease has been associated with type two diabetes osteoporosis, rheumatoid arthritis and a number of cardiovascular complications. Now, researchers report that people with poor oral health appear to have a harder time controlling their blood pressure. They review data from the US national health and examination survey and found that about half of the participants had gum disease. The worst the Pero Donald assise the harder it was to manage bloodpressure. Perio? Donald therapy. Reduced the likelihood of anti hypertensive treatment failure. And that's the hill. News from the people's fund. See this week. Welcome to the people's pharmacy. I'm Terry Graydon. I'm Joe Graydon. Do you ever get confused and frustrated by conflicting health headlines one month coffee's bad for you? The next month is going to prevent diabetes heart failure, and maybe even Parkinson's disease for years. People were advised to keep their egg consumption to a minimum. Now, we're told that eggs won't clog your arteries after all how do you deal with all those flip flops is there a way to make sense of the contradictory headlines without getting whiplash? Sometimes you may feel you need a resent us down to crack the code. Well, we have just the guide you need. Dr Aaron Carroll is a professor of pediatrics and associate dean for research mentoring at Indiana University school of medicine, he's also director of the center for pediatric and adolescent, comparative effectiveness research, he focuses on the study of information. Technology to improve pediatric care healthcare policy and healthcare reform in addition to his scholarly activities. He writes about health research and policy for the New York Times, among other outlets. His most recent book is the bad food bible how and why to eat sinful iw. Welcome back to the people's pharmacy. Dr Aaron Carol thank you so much about me back. Dr Carol, you know, you are the one person we go to all the time when we have a question about some new research. Who was a study that was published several weeks, maybe several months ago about the the horrors of alcohol even one drink is too many, right? Wondering shorten your life dramatically, and then, you know, millions of people go, oh my goodness. And I even heard on television physicians, you know, MD types saying, oh, yeah, alcohol, it's really bad for you. And so you've kind of put it into perspective. Help us understand statistics probability. And what those studies mean for us? So this study got a lot of media attention, and it was portrayed in very much the way that you're describing it with headlines like there's no safe amount of alcohol, and, you know, lots of news stories arguing that even one drink is too much. So it's important to understand that this was a population based study, which is trying to get across a population base message, and that's perfectly reasonable and this. Has certainly pretty much the largest study of its type ever done was a meta analysis or a study of studies that granted together all of the observational studies that exist. It had looked at least twenty three different alcohol related problems that could come from that they gathered together hundreds of sources to estimate how much people might be drinking worldwide and put it all together. And basically they found that very high levels of drinking. You're very likely I have many of these problems, and there's a pretty consistent dose response, or at least it gets worse as you drink more and the lowest point was zero. And that's how they came out with those headlines, but there's a lot of things we have to consider what studies like this? The first is that it's Oster facial data. It can easily be confounded. There could be unmeasured factors that are contributing to the harm people that drink also smoke people to drink off tend to be poor. There could also be genetic differences or obesity differences, all of these would matter, and none of them could come into the play when they were actually looking at the study because the only thing they data for was basically age sex and location, and that's not the researchers fault. That's probably all they could do. And if you're going to model population level wide effects, that's fine. But they and a lot of the media then carried this individual level risks. And if you've got to make a claim that even one drink a day is really dangerous. Well, it's it's important to understand first of all what's the magnitude of that risk. And this is going to get a little into the numbers, but it's important to understand. So for every hundred thousand people who drink one drink a day nine hundred eighteen will probably have one of the Twenty-three related alcohol problems in any year, but of one hundred thousand people who drink nothing nine hundred and fourteen would experience one of those problems. This means that of one hundred thousand people ninety nine thousand eighty two will not be affected by drinking drink nine hundred fourteen will have an issue. No matter what they do only four in one hundred thousand people who drink drink a day might have one of those Twenty-three related. Problems that is an incredibly incredibly small risk. And no one should be assured that we've proven causal data from this study, even at true drinks a day. The number of people who experience a problem goes up to nine hundred seventy seven hundred thousand but again, nine hundred eighteen of them would have a problem with no matter what even at five drinks a day. We're only into the low thousands of people who might have a problem out of one hundred thousand and no one would argue that five drinks a day is a good idea that is too much. And so I'll Kahal ISM is terrible. It really is and drinking too much is really really bad for you. But the actual potential harm from very low level drinking or or even light to moderate drinking is very very small does not hit everyone equally and to take these kinds of studies. And then they huge sumptious about how it's going to affect individuals is really really going too far. Now, Dr Carol you said we can. Make causal inferences from this observational data. That's that is kind of a problem, isn't it? It is. And with some things like smoking. You will hear I've mostly tobacco. And she, but you'll hear some experts at what we've never proven that smoking causes cancer because we have no randomized controlled trials. But the odds ratios and the damage the numbers of people who have these are so great. And so large that at some point we say, okay, we're not going to do a randomized controlled trial, but we can pretty much prove it these are incredibly small numbers, and we could do a randomized controlled trial of alcohol. In fact, one was really in the works until some articles in the New York Times which actually reported on ethical concerns in the ways it was being pitched to funded by industry got it shut down. But that doesn't mean that we couldn't do a trial of light to moderate drinking, and that it wouldn't be in the public interest and wouldn't be worth funding. It absolutely would be. I'd also point out. We do have some randomized control. Field trials of alcohol where people were randomized to water or red wine or white wine, for instance, and it has been shown to have positive effects with respect to perhaps the prevention of diabetes markers or lowering of them and also with respect to some markers that would show cardiovascular risks. So if anything there's a little bit of evidence that light to moderate drinking might be beneficial in that respect, we won't know the true causal effect until we do a real randomized controlled trial. We probably should if we really want to close the door that, but until we do that to keep making huge claims from vast huge observational studies that you'll very very tiny rest. We're cheating statistical significance without necessarily achieving clinical significance and doing another meta analysis is not gonna do us. Any more good? We have about as much knowledge as we can get out of observational studies. If we want new knowledge, we're going to need a big randomized controlled trial. Thoughts are Carol. We probably should describe the difference between all epidemiological studies case control studies observational studies and the gold standard are CT's randomized control trials could you give a quick overview of the difference between these German Y R C teaser so much more important. So this study is a collection of studies that we would call mostly cohort studies, which is basically they get together a huge bunch of people. And then they check and see whether they have disease, and they also ask them if they have been drinking, and if they're drinking how much if they gathered them together and they follow them forward. That's a that's a prospective cohort trial. If they asked him about things that have happened in the past that's a retrospective cohort Trump and what they do is. They can sort of identifying what we call. Either odds ratios relative risks where they can say people who have been drinking are at higher risk or more likely or less likely to have. Diseases or problems than people who don't drink the problem with observational. Studies is that they can be what we call confounded where there can be a link or a relationship between alcohol consumption and bad outcomes. But there could be something else in between that is the cause of that some of the things I've already mentioned already, for instance, people who drink tend to be more likely to smoke. We know smoking causes all kinds of health problems. And it could be that people who drink it's not the drinking that's causing the promise the smoking. It could be the people who are drinking are poor. And that often tends to be the case. And when we do these kinds of studies therefore, it looks like it turns out that it's the poverty, which is much more risky. In fact in a previous study like this. They found that alcohol was associated with worse outcomes. But when they broke it down, they found that actually beer consumption was was associated with worse outcomes. But wine and spirits were associated with slightly better outcomes. Now. No one is arguing that wine and spirits are good for you. It's just that people who drink wine and spirits tend to be wealthier. And again, poverty is associated with a huge number of health problems. So without the ability to control in some statistical for fashion for all these confounding measures, you can wind up with a result that there's an association, but that's not the cause it's not it might not be the drinking that is causing the bad outcomes. It might just be the people who drink also tend to have other issues, and those things are what are causing the bad outcomes. The only way to be really sure this. In fact, one of the few ways to sort of get a 'cause -ality is to do a randomized controlled trial where we take people, and we randomly assign them to drink or not because of that we can be assured or more assured that there's not some factor that's associated with their choosing to drink or not where we're randomize ING where making it by chance. And if we just randomized people to drink. Or not. And then we see that there's a relationship between drinking and some outcome. We can be more assured that the drinking is the cause of that outcome because we've not allowed the other factors to confound the results or to prejudge or to change whether or not people are going to drink or not so to really get it. 'cause -ality to really figure out does lighter moderate drinking caused these kinds of health problems. We'd need to do a randomized controlled trial. You've been listening to Dr Aaron Carroll. He's professor of pediatrics and associate dean for research mentoring at Indiana University school of medicine, he's also director of the center for pediatric and atlas and comparative effectiveness research his books include the bad food bible how and why to eat sin Fily, he spoke with us from his office, which is next to a busy highway after the break. We'll discuss why. Nutritional studies can be so confusing. Some studies about how to get children to eat more healthily sounded good, but aren't based on sound science part of the problem is that studies that find no difference. The no hypothesis are much less likely to get published. So how would you know about those results, and how does that affect our understanding of drugs like antidepressants safe and effective? Are they? You're listening to the people's pharmacy with Joe and Terry Graydon. The people's pharmacy podcast is sponsored in part by Kaya -biotics, K A Y A -biotics offers the first probiotics which are both certified organic and Hypo allergenic I'll probiotics are produced in Germany under laboratory conditions with high quality ingredients and under strict regulatory oversight. The three available formulas are created for very specific purposes such as strengthening the immune system, fighting east infections and helping with weight loss to learn more about Kaya -biotics, probiotics and the important topic of gut health you can visit their website Kaya, -biotics dot com. That's K A Y A -biotics dot com. Use the discount code people for ten dollars off your first purchase. Welcome back to the people's pharmacy. Ontari graydon. I'm Joe Graydon. If you would like a purchase a CD of this show, you can call eight hundred seven three two two three three four. Today's show is one thousand one hundred forty one that phone number again, eight hundred seven three to twenty three thirty four or you can find it online at people's pharmacy dot com. You can also download the podcast from I tunes today. We're taking a look at health risks, which ones do you really need to worry about. And how would you know, most of us are easily confused when it comes to the statistics we encounter in articles about medical research, drug companies are very good at using statistics to their own advantage. How can you defend yourself to help us better understand risks and benefits? We're talking with Dr Aaron Carroll. He's professor of pediatric. Trix and associate dean for research mentoring at Indiana University school of medicine, he's also director of the center for pediatric and adolescent, comparative effectiveness research, he's written three books debunking, medical myths. The most recent is the bad food bible how and why to eat sin fully. Dr Carol we've been talking about the problems of observational studies, and this may help to explain I there's so much confusion about nutrition. Studies people get all kinds of upset if we tell them one week that coffee is bad for you. And then three months later, we tell them no coffee's good for you. Or we say don't eat butter, eat margarine. And then we turn around and say, oops, we were wrong. Of course, we would never say those things. But that's what the media tends to do like, oh, don't eat butter and then ten twenty thirty years later. It's like, ooh, margarine wasn't so good after all, and then there's the whole saturated fat cholesterol story. And so when it comes to nutrition there is so much confusion in large measure because of these observational studies. I would say I go further and say, it's not even just because of the observational studies. It's also because of the way we interpret research and the way that we talk about it and covered in the media. So we can start with the fact that I think you're correct that a lot of these studies are finding associations and those associations are often statistically significant and on necessarily clinically significant. And from that, we extrapolate there must be a causal pathway. And that one thing these things must 'cause one of the others when it's not true. And therefore, if we do another observational study where the associations are just different because it's a different population or something else, we can find a very different result. There's a classic study. That was published in the eye. Kim was I think it was two thousand twelve by John wanted us, which they took a cookbook, and they randomly picked fifty ingredients in the cookbook, and then they went out and looked at our their studies that show whether these fifty ingredients cause or prevent cancer, and they found research on almost all of them. I the more than forty. But what was interesting about? It was they can find studies that showed pretty much all of those ingredients both caused cancer and prevented cancer. In other words, you could find a study that said it made cancer less likely and for the same ingredient, you could find a study where cancer would be more likely. This is part of the problem with how we do nutrition research. We we isolate these individual nutrients, we try to study them all by themselves without recognizing that. Of course, they are completely confounded because they're being eaten along with tons of other foods, and in ways that that have all kinds of issues, we know that these studies are often very small they are often for very short. Periods of time. They often involve very few subjects and because of all of that together. The results are not nearly as robust or powerful as we think they should be or we would like them to be even when they're a randomized controlled trials. They're often for weeks involving tens of people and. And again with outcomes that are not long term or in ways that we care about those. They don't follow people enough to actually look at death or true health, or will you cancer? They're following biomarkers or laboratory values that fluctuate all the time and never turn out to correlate with what we actually care about. But part of the problem is also how we talk about this. Every new study is greeted as if it's an evacuation. So if there is a study with thirty people were they find out that dark chocolate is associated with some outcome that they care about they breathlessly pronounce it. Oh, we've proven that that this is true. There's a relationship dark chocolate is good for you without saying, but we have tons and tons and tons of research already in this area. Does this change our minds or is it just a tiny study in a huge sea of data? We don't do that. We don't take the large view. We don't look at all of these things together. And because of that we get misinformed and think that each new study is. Truth and we've waffle from one direction to the other direction. Instead of saying look, we've a ton of research some of it goes one way some of it goes the other way, therefore the likely answer is this doesn't make a difference at all. And if we took that sort of broader attitude, I think we'd have a better sense what's going on. But there's even another problem, then that involves publication bias studies, which are sexy studies which are going to scare people or make them think something that's really exciting are much more likely to get published and much more likely to get covered in the news. Then studies which are boring and so scientists whether or not they know it are seeking out the results that they think might get them to more likely to get some variety. And of course, they're being cherry picked out of the either the studies that are more likely to be exciting or to say, something new are more likely to get published more likely to covered more likely to get discussed more likely to get cited which gives us a false impression of what truth really is. 'cause we're seeing this. The sexy side of it or the exciting side of it, which often is not the true side of it. And so all of that together happens far too often in attrition research, which winds us with results that don't really hold up over time or give us a good sense of what we should or should not be eating. I remember learning in high school that it was just as important to pay attention to results if you do a study it's just as important to pay attention to resolve that don't arrive at the null hype. Or that I guess do arrive at the null hypothesis that say, okay, there is no difference. This. This doesn't make any difference. It may be scientifically important, but people aren't that interested in it. Right. No from across the board. In fact, I just wrote a column on this recently talking about negative results. We don't celebrate them. Like, we should we don't get excited about them. Like, we should we don't try to public. In fact, are much less likely to get published if we do publish them. We are much more likely to actually try to change, you know, even the outcomes that we're talking about our spin them as positive which can often be a problem, if they do get published where much less likely to discuss them in the media as I said, and so we don't care almost about negative results in the same way, we do positive, but that's not how science works. The scientific method is set up around trying to set up a hypothesis and then trying to see if it is true or not and finding out that it is not is just as important as finding out that it is. Unfortunately, that's not how we do stuff. Even all the way if you go far back to grants. You know, the H is looking for innovation. They want to be convinced that that something is going to be new and exciting, and it's going to lead to positive results that that they're going to care about institutions are going to get more excited academic institutions are going to be more excited more likely to promote you and to give you accolades if you're published in high profile journals and that comes again from exciting new positive results. That's what people wanna see in the media. That's what they want to see on the news and all of this together creates a scientific environment where we are pushing for exciting new counterintuitive bizarre flashy results and not sort of necessarily getting his hyped up about or excited about things which are negative. No, boring. But those kinds of buying sees the things that lead us to research. That's not reproducible and to research that doesn't necessarily reflect truth. Well, I do wanna talk to you in a moment about pharmaceutical stuff. Studies because that's as true for drug says it is for nutrition. But before we dive into the world of medications, I do want to ask you about a column you wrote for the New York Times, titled the cookie crumbles, a retracted study points to a larger truth, and I know it would be very tempting to say, I told you so within fact you did a couple of years ago pretty much saying the same thing, but you were proven correct in the more recent research that was retracted can you give us a quick overview of what happened. Sure that was a study actually that got retracted it was it was a study that had we had thought had taken place in basically showed that if you put Elmo stickers or stickers of characters that kids would be interested in on apples that at school. They'd be more likely to choose the apple over the cookie that they would small dry. Offers like that we could influence behavior and get kids to eat more healthily. These kinds of studies pump up in the media all the time. They're very attractive to us. We want to believe that they are true because we'd love to believe that small painless things can get us all to eat much more healthily, and to to perhaps even lose weight and not have as much of a problem with obesity, as we do all throughout the United States that study had problems because some people went back looked at the numbers, and it turned out that it didn't take place in a school as previously thought. But in a preschool or in a daycare center in a head start. If I believe those correct. So it's not surprising that we can get very small children to choose apples over cookies if you give them it almost sticker. The problem is can we get school aged kids doing the answer? Now, it turns out that a lot of studies had been done in the lab that had produced this result. And a lot of them recently in various news had were all retracted. It was just a huge set retract. From the network of journals. But this is the kind of research you hear about where if we give people smaller plates, they less if they order food when they're not hungry ahead of time. They will order less if we change how the buffet works. Are we changed the time of day when they shop? They tend to buy less calories all of these things sound great. And we love the idea because it's like, hey, I'm not having to deprive myself from not struggling and has nothing to do with going on diets. I commit these small simple changes. And I'm not going to eat as many calories, and I'm gonna lose weight and be healthy. They're all being retracted. I think the take home message from this is what we should start at the beginning. There is no free ride. If it was easy and simple for us to all eat, healthy and lose weight. We would do it. The problem is that it's hard. And especially with the way that we consume American diets today, it's very difficult to change them sometimes in ways, which allow us to eat fewer calories or eat better and lose weight and sustain that over the long term. And these simple quick fixes which make a lot of news and sell a lot of books and make from great stories and some people's careers. Don't turn out to be true. And unfortunately, in this case, it's resulted in some serious issues for for the researcher as well as as well as the lab that he worked for. But I think in general we have to acknowledge the fact that almost with almost everything and even with food. There are trade-offs. There are no quick fixes. There are no easy solutions and often the stuff that seems really sexy and novel is not nearly as true as the conservative boring moderation type stories, we'll Dr Carol you're a pediatrician. And so I am guessing that you have in the course of your career had to tell parents give parents advice about how to feed their kids. How to encourage their kids to follow a healthier diet. What do you say? What research supports it? So I think it's you got to make small steady changes part of it is trying not to snack. You know? Snacking is a problem. I think the more you eat the more eat sometimes being active can help not in the sense that exercise leads to weight loss, but with kids sometimes keeping them moving and not sitting on the couch that is often associated, you know, sitting around with a meeting because I'm I'm just bored. And so trying to change that try to change, you know, what kids eat and trying to eat more healthy diets is the same simple stuff that we would tell adults try to eat more fruits and vegetables, try to avoid processed food as much as possible not because it's full of chemicals, and because it's odd, but because food that is processed by processed. I mean, something has been done to it from ingredients before you eat, it, it makes it easy to eat more than you would otherwise like the bread makes it easy to eat wheat. Pasta makes it easy to eat flower. Those are both processed foods. You don't have to think often of just even really company produced food or industrialized food. But the more that you can stick to ingredients the more that you can get kids and families de well, balanced diets than involve lots of different foods, probably the better off, you're going to be I also advocate for trying to remove sources of added sugars in the sense that that is just empty calories and too much of our processed food in general just contain sugar because they know it will sell more. That'd sugars empty calories. It's just not necessary. It's associated with the host of issues, and it's often something that you can eliminate pretty easily without having to radically change kids diets and often by making these small changes over time. You can see decent size results. Dr caroli- promised. I would ask you about pharmaceuticals. You were talking about negative research. It's not very sexy and doesn't get published. This. Same thing can be said for pharmaceutical research. Right. Oh, absolutely. In effect, the article that I wrote on publication by Senate around antidepressants because that is such a great example to get drugs approved by the FDA pharmaceutical companies have to show that they are safe and effective, but they often just need to do that in some studies, and they only need to sort of really promote the ones where they are positive. And so some researchers actually took I think it was one hundred and four studies and what they did with actually went to the FDA websites where all the data exists. Not just the things that are published and they found that of the half or so of trials that were positive almost every single one of them was published in the peer reviewed literature, but only about half of those that were negative actually were published and so they don't have to publish the negative trials. And so we don't necessarily know how much negative date is out there will enter the positive data. But then it goes even further of the negative trials. They often change the. Outcomes to pick secondary outcomes that looked positive instead of the ones that were primary negative and that makes even some of the negative studies look positive, and sometimes they even put spin on negative results to make it sound like negative results or positive by talking about trends in the data or by citing numbers, even if they're not statistically significant. So if you take all of that together while as I said at the top about half, the studies reposited in half the size or negative. If you include the idea of we're gonna publish not are we going to cherry pick out comes in. And we're going to spin more than ninety percent of the literature looks positive, and that's how you get the sense that antidepressants massively work when again only half of the studies that we're actually done turned out to be positive. And so by moving or changing, how these things are published on and how they're published you can actually really affect how people think about them far more than the results would actually show. You mentioned say. Safety and effectiveness, and I think those are really important terms. But we don't really know what they mean. So. What do we even mean when we say safe ineffective? So f- effective means that in the actual clinical trial. They saw a different. So in an ideal perfect world situation, you see some kind of result from the drug more than placebo safe means that it did not have a significant level of harms or adverse events that occurred from it. But of course, you know, drugs can be have efficacy without affective nece, or how will they work in the real world and just because they have efficacy in a set small population. For study doesn't mean it's going to work in a large much larger population in the real world that can get us into trouble. You've been listening to Dr Aaron Carroll. He's professor of pediatrics and associate dean for research mentoring at Indiana University school of medicine. He's also director of the center for pediatric in adolescent, comparative effectiveness research his books include the bat food bible how and why to eat sinful. If you go to our website, WWW dot people's pharmacy dot com, you'll find a link to his New York Times say about the alcohol research, we also have a linked to the research itself in the Lancet after the break. We'll talk more about drug safety. How should we be talking about benefits and harms? So that we understand them better. What's the difference between relative and absolute risk? Why does it matter especially when it comes to medications like Lipitor, how can you as a consumer figure out which health risks, you really need to worry about Dr like the rest of us have a hard time unlearn things. Why is that a problem? You're listening to the people's pharmacy with Joe and Terry Graydon. If you do the health information, you get when you listen to the people's pharmacy consider subscribing to our Email newsletter. You'll get the latest health news and information on upcoming podcasts delivered to your inbox twice a week look for the link at people's pharmacy dot com. Welcome back to the people's pharmacy. I'm Joe Graydon. And I'm Terry Graydon to purchase a CD of today's show or any people sperm ac- broadcast. You can call eight hundred seven three two two three three four. Today's show is number one thousand one hundred forty one that number again, eight hundred seven thirty to twenty three thirty four you can also place the order at people's pharmacy dot com or you could download the free podcast from I tunes or from our web store. We invite you to consider writing a review today were trying to understand benefits and risks. You frequently read about a new drug that reduces the risk of some condition by twenty or thirty percent. But what does that really mean for you drug safety ineffectiveness seem clear those are the criteria for drug approval. But the. FDA has a lot of leeway on such definitions. How can you tell if a medication will really help our guest is Dr Aaron Carroll? He is professor of pediatrics and associate dean for research mentoring at Indiana University school of medicine, he's also director of the center for pediatric and adolescent, comparative effectiveness research, he's written three books a debunking medical miss. The most recent is the bad food bible how and why to eat simply Dr Carol you mentioned that safety is one of the criteria that the food and Drug administration uses before they approve a medicine, and yet all you have to do is turn on television these days, and you will see prescription drug commercials for consumers in which they mentioned side effects like cancer lymphoma, for example, or heart attacks strokes kidney disease. And sometimes they even say, including death, including death, and you go. Whoa. Wait a minute. How can that be safe? And by the way, people are having an absolutely fabulous time as all aside effects and being mentioned, I've counted six different smiles during one little voice over with side effect information. Well, that has to do with the way that we talk about or fail to talk about benefits and harms I think with respect almost everything in medicine. We just talk about them as if they are binary they exist. They do not exist versus trying to actually quantify how much benefit versus how much harm you might receive. So look, I I have all sort of colitis. I take medication Bioserve colitis. It has significant potential side effects. Have my blood drawn every three months to make sure that I don't have what's called a plastic anemia or the idea that my my bone was shutting down, and I'm not creating read one white blood cells that sounds. Horrific, but the benefits that I get from taking this drug are massive and the absolute risk of having a promise, very low. It is worth it to me for many of the drugs might see on TV it's possible that there's a quantifiable large benefit that people might achieve quantifiable small risk. Even if those things sounds scary or it could be the opposite. There could be a small benefit and a relatively large risk. You can't tell from those commercials. But that is how we've sort of mandated that those commercials exist. They have to by law state, no more benefit than what is actually true, but they have to state what harms exist, but they don't do them in ranking order, they don't quantify how many people might get them. And so they can panic you correctly or incorrectly, and they might not panic you incorrectly or correctly. Unfortunately, would just won't ever know from those types of commercials. Well, one of the techniques that commercial sometimes use t use the relative benefit when it comes to benefits because it sounds so much more impressive than than absolute benefit. So for example, some years ago there was an ad for Lipitor. I believe suggesting that there was a thirty percent reduction in heart attacks for people taking Lipitor, which if he looked at the data from the study was true. But it was because if you had one hundred people taking Lipitor for five years and two of them would have a heart attack and three of the ones taking the placebo would have a heart attack during that five years. So one person out of one hundred over five years that's a thirty percent reduction. It sounds a lot less impressive. When you put the. Numerator denominators in it absolutely does. And so this is definitely one of the ways that companies try to mislead us. But also the ways that the media can often mislead us because they will almost always cite the relative risk. So relative risk is exactly what it sounds like. It's the relative increase. So if I go from ten to twenty percent, I had ten percents before to twenty percent now I have doubled that is twice as large. If I went from twenty percent ten percent. I had a fifty percent reduction. But the absolute reduction is the difference between the two, and so I went from twenty to ten that is only a ten percent reduction, of course, ten percent reduction. Still sounds great. But fifty percent, but sounds better. But if I also go from point oh two percent, two point. Oh one percent. That is also a relative fifty percent reduction in the news story that is what you will hear v. Fifty percent reduction. It's also what you on the advertisement. Even though we only really had an absolute reduction of point, oh, one one of my favorite examples in this involves red meat where if you believe the stories that say red meat causes cancer. Even though those aren't randomized controlled trials. They will cite the fact that that they believe that processed red meat. They believe increases your lifetime risk of getting colon cancer one serving a day by eighteen percent. That sounds horrifically scary. Eighteen percent increase in getting colon cancer of our lifetime. Sounds huge. But that is a relative risk. So if we want to look at the absolute risk, we can also do that. If I went to the National Cancer website than I entered all of my data. And I'd have to pretend that I'm fifty because fifty is the youngest it goes for it. They would say that I have a lifetime cancer risk of. I think two point three percent. If I then say, I'm going to eat three extra pieces of bacon every day for the rest of my life. Which I'm not going to do my risk would go from two point three percent to two point seven percent. That is a relative risk of eighteen increase of eight relative increase of eighteen percent. But the absolute risk increase was point four percent, very low. But the eighteen percent sounds scary. The point four percent does not. And that's also if I if I choose to eat an extra three pieces of bacon every day for the rest of my life. That is not have anything to us. I said by want bacon once in a while. Which is really how they tried to scare you. But that's a massive difference between the relative risk increase, which they will often scare us with and the absolute risk increase. This happens all the time with talking about alcohol and cancer again with talking about other things we might do where we will focus on the relative risk and say it goes up by four percent by ten percent. Even by twenty percent when the absolute risk increases are very small often even less than one percent. Dr Carol our listener. I get very frustrated when they hear people talking about the dangers of alcohol the dangers of red meat the dangers of butter the dangers of this and the dangers of that. And they want to know. Well, well, Dr Carol how do I make sense of those confusing headlines where they try to scare the heck out of me based on relative risk. How can I get to that absolute risk information and not just when it comes to the risk of let's say some sort of food item. But also when it comes to medications, how can I determine how effective my medicine is going to be in the real world. Not just in some clinical trial where perhaps the data has been very carefully cherry-picked. Well, it's really hard. You can do it often by going to the actual research papers and reading them, which is what I do. But of course, I'm not expecting that everybody in the lay public is going to do that that that is what? Try to do in my Collins what I try to do in the book is try to lay out and bring the research lights that you can see it. It's hard. The media could do a much better job of trying to quantify the absolute risk changes. With all these things not just the relative risk changes. But I would also argue that we need to take a better view of risk of not only looking at one side of not just looking at harms, but also benefits. The example, I always use the number one killer in the United States have children by far is accidents car accidents, kill more children than almost anything else that we could pick. No one ever says we should not drive because so many children are killed by cars. We accept a certain number of children are going to be killed by cars because we know that this aside benefits of driving are phenomenal. And therefore we can make a logical decision that driving while increasing the absolute risk of death. And the relative IRS could death by quite a bit is worth it. We don't have that same kind of commonsense, balancing, benefits and harms in so many other things we do. Let's take the bacon example. I used a minute ago. I like bacon. It may be totally an reasonable for me to say, I'm going to take a one thousand chance that over the course of my life. I might get cancer. If I want to eat bacon every day because that's how much I love it. I'm probably taking a much lower risk because I'm not eating bacon day. But the answer is not to eat. No bacon. You have to sort of judge. What it is. We know that the sun raises your risk of skin cancer. Now, one says never go out in the sun. They say take proper precautions and think about how much doing because you don't wanna raise your risk too much. We can make balances and recognized that there's good, and there's bad and all of these things try to quantify them and measure the difference. And then determine what is the right decision for us. But that's all. Often. How news stories are not pitched and how recommendations are not done. They only focus on one side. And not the other scare you with large numbers and never make any kinds of trade offs. And I would argue that one trade off you always need to consider as a benefit is joy, you know, some things are quality of life improving, and they are more quality of life improving than the actual harm. You're accepting that is perfectly rational and reasonable. I think chocolate might fall into that category. You go perfect example for me. It's scotch. What she sticks. Dr carol. You have written that it's hard for doctors to unlearn things. Why is that a problem? So it's first of all let's knowledge, it's very hard to get human beings to change behavior. It's very hard for doctors to change behavior. There's there's some studies that say it takes fifteen years for something to sort of be proven in the medical literature, and then to finally have trickle into clinical care, but as hard as it is to get doctors to do things it's almost harder to get them to undo things part of that is because it's hard to change behavior. Part of it is because we at some level get paid to do stuff. That's not to say doctors are committing fraud or that they're trying to do extra work. It's just that. You know, they often have done things for a long time believed that they are doing good. They start to believe the causalty exists when it's just an association, they start to believe that the thing they are doing causes good. It is very hard to learn that behavior. The example, I used a reason column. Mm was talking about recommendations for how tightly we should control people's glucose levels when they're very sick. And intensive care units for a period of time. We thought we should really be on it and tightly controlled their glucose. And while we thought that the number of doctors were actually doing that increased steadily. But slowly, but then new reserved came out and said, that's a bad idea causes harm, and there's no benefit you should stop immediately. And it didn't trickle down it sort of just stayed constant because it's hard for them to unlearn behavior. I also point to a campaign called choosing wisely from the American board of internal medicine, which asks specialty groups to identify five or ten practices that their specialty. Does that all the evidence says you should not do this? I mean, basically, it's just directives don't do something. There are something like six hundred different recommendations as of this moment on the website of things that doctors should not do. Do that. We still do all of the time. It's very hard to change behavior and get doctors to stop doing stuff. How do we change that we could try to have perhaps different incentives, and in the way that we pay for things to try to get them to change, but it's very hard. And unfortunately, those actions don't do good. They don't have a quantifiable benefit they do have a quantifiable harm. They also have a very quantifiable cost and this is pure waste. It's a significant part of the healthcare system. Probably the single biggest bit of modifiable savings. We could get at and it would probably help us to do good. But it's very very hard to get physicians and not just positions but lots built, but certainly physicians to stop doing things, Dr Carol your profession. Your specialty has come under scrutiny over the last couple of decades for all those tonsillectomies that were performed back in the. Fifties and sixties, and then all those antibiotics that were prescribed for Erin factions, and then all those ear tubes. So how do we influence pediatricians to be a little more cautious? So tonsillectomies is sort of the perfect example for something that was being done that everybody thought was doing good that turned out not to him. And it was Jack Wynberg, and what later became the Dartmouth atlas that pointed all that out because he basically showed that there was huge areas of variation in the United States in the rates of tonsillectomies. There were being performed without any kinds of improvements and outcomes which proved that really didn't do any good an overtime. That's changed. When I was a kid. There was even a curious George book, which is pretty much entirely about going to hospital. Arguably about getting kids ready for tonsillectomies that don't need to happen. Antibiotics have been harder to fix the problem with antibiotics is that again, that's a good example of a mislaying of the benefits in the harms people think that antibiotics are going to cure pain and. Twenty four hours. You know, my kids and pain give me an antibiotic it never does. There's no study that's ever shown at twenty four hours will some antibiotics can cause a reduction in symptoms over the course of say two seven so that would be a benefit, but the number needed to treat is closing in on twenty on the other hand about the number needed to harm or the number of kids, you need to give an antibiotic to to give them a rash or vomiting or diarrhea is like nine. So I tell parents all the time especially when it's low risk ear infection. If I give you an antibiotic twice as likely to cause a harm as I am to give you a benefit when when portrayed in that manner. Many patients will choose not to get the antibiotic. But too often patients think there's only an upside to antibiotics, and no downside and say physicians feel the same way. All of this. I think in a lot of our conversation has been a good example of the ways that we just don't think of a whole picture when it comes to medicine everything in in health and medicine is a trade off there are harms and there are benefits and every individual decision that we make what we eat in. What medicines we take what actions are therapies, we're going to undergo should think about one of the the actual benefits and quantifiable benefits, I'm going to get what are the actual harms or quantifiable harms, I might get. And if I put them on a scale, which is more important to me, and if you take that kind of holistic outlook and think about it you're gonna make far better decisions for yourself. And we as the society would probably make far better decisions about what things we do. And do not want to do Dr Aaron Carol. Thank you so much for talking with us on the people's pharmacy today. Thank you. You've been listening to Dr Aaron Carroll professor of pediatrics and associate dean for research mentoring at Indiana University school of medicine, he's also director of the center for pediatric and adult comparative effectiveness research his research focuses on the study of information technology to improve pediatric care healthcare policy and health care reform. In addition to his scholarly activities. He writes about health research and policy for the New York Times, among other outlets. His most recent book is the bad food bible how and why to eat simply lean Seagal produced today show. How would our ski engineered Dave Graydon edits? Our interviews. The people's pharmacy is produced at the studios of North Carolina public radio W and see the people's pharmacy. Theme music is by B J Liederman to buy a CD of today's show or. Or any other people's pharmacy broadcast. You can call eight hundred seven three two two three three four. Today's show is one thousand one hundred forty one the number again, eight hundred seven thirty to twenty three thirty four online at people's pharmacy dot com when you go to our site, you can share your thoughts about today's show. How did you determine benefits and risks? If fifty people have to take medicine to help one person get a therapeutic effect. Do you think that's worth it? What about risk how do you figure out which health threats you care about in which you can ignore? Please. Share your story in the comment section for today at people's pharmacy dot com, you'll find links to Dr carols article in the New York Times. And the study we discussed you can also sign up for our free online newsletter or subscribe to the free podcast of the show. When you subscribe to the newsletter, you'll get our free guide to. Favorite home remedies in Durham, North Carolina. I'm Joe Graydon. Can't I'm Kerry grading, thanks for listening. Please join us again next. We hope you enjoyed this podcast if so please consider taking a minute to write a review on I two and thanks for listening to the people's pharmacy.

Dr Aaron Carol food and Drug administration Dr Aaron Carroll cancer Terry Graydon Indiana University school of m researcher New York Times associate dean for research director Ontari graydon United States professor of pediatrics Joe Graydon Lung cancer Elevated blood pressure gum disease university of North Carolina Tencent
Words On Water #144: Kari Brisolara on the Science on Biosolids and Coronavirus

Words on Water

09:10 min | 1 year ago

Words On Water #144: Kari Brisolara on the Science on Biosolids and Coronavirus

"The word art hi. Welcome to words on water. Podcast from the Water Environment Federation. This is the host Travis loop another episode looking at issues around Corona virus. Obviously a big challenge for the water sector and for our country and world. This time we're GONNA look at residuals of bio solids. I'm joined by Carrie Bristle Laura. She is Associate Dean for Academic Affairs and associate professor of Environmental Health at Louisiana State University. Lsu Their School of Public Health. Care thank you for coming on the PODCAST. Great thanks for having me Travis. Yes so as Corona Virus. This pandemic has taken place in continues. There's a lot of different aspects of water that are being looked at I mentioned residuals bio solids. What were the? What were the concerns? That were raised Or the the issues that people are looking out when it comes to corona virus bio solids. Right well I think a lot of the concerns that have stems from the idea that we really don't know the extent to which the Kobe is. Presence is present in sewage In its presence especially in an infectious form really has not been been documented. And so the concerns. I think are coming as we see some studies coming out related to the the virus's ability to attach to different receptors in the intestinal track. If it's found in the feces infected patients than does that translate to concern for the survival of the virus. Actually all the way into to bio solids so. I think that's where a lot of the concerns are coming from. And so we've looked at at trying to basically pull the science together. I guess related to to these questions and so yeah because you talk about that so pull the science together what happened. There was a group of a group of people and kind of looked at. What's out there as far as research? Correct yeah so we. I am myself along with Russia Marlboro. Red From at core and Dr Bob Remers. From Tulane Dr Bob Rubin North Carolina Mark Topsy Basha EPA Gerber plus multiple others in the Bio solids round. That have quite a few years of experience in the US does are all pretty well-known very credible outstanding professionals. There grew. Yes yes yes. And so. Our goal was is really kind of provide further. Clarifications specifically related to residuals bio solids with the target of of trying to explain things and provide the information for the water resource recovery facilities in really wastewater sector at large. So we were kind of building on the the work that Russia had done with the the white dot group with came out with their recommendations with relation to wastewater so this is kind of taking it a step further to the bio solids side an interesting. And we'll let's dive into the details in a minute but early in this podcast. I want to get to the bottom line finding As you looked at all this information all this research What what. We're kind of conclusions about corona virus residuals bio solids. So it really want to emphasize kind of it. Any treated by the solids are not expected to have infectious covert nineteen virus currently with everything that we've reviewed. There's really no documented evidence out there that bio solids either Class A or B our source of transmission of Corona virus. All right well. That's good. I think that's great news For our sector and everybody all end the workforce I know you dot EU dove in pretty deep How does the virus density vary based on kind of the different categories of residuals so overall the virus density is going to decrease with increasing treatment so for example direct fecal samples have a higher bias concentration versus even the raw municipal sludge? Because you get to things. Like dilution survival impacts of just transport through conveyance systems along with any kind of environmental stressors so and then you look at the material as it moves through the water resource recovery facilities and the likelihood of virus survival significantly decreases and as you move through treatments and also we know that for bio solids class. A treatment is more stringent than class B treatment. And so therefore we would expect viruses or really any pathogen levels to be lower as you get all the way to classic interesting and diving into that disinfection process a bit more evaluated that and and what the effectiveness of of different You know the disinfection process is what did you find there. The basically we're we're getting what we asked for. I'm the pathogen inactivation. So disinfection processes are working their class kind of based on that ability to inactivate the pathogens including all the categories so Baya bacteria viruses and also helmet mean. That's what establishes those classes of disinfection in. So we've looked at all of those. We kind of went through the data looking at any kind of comparative type of historical research. That's been done whether it's viruses at large at the larger category or all the way down to really looking at the similarities of what we call enveloped viruses that can have very similar properties to the cove nineteen virus. And so what we're finding is that we really re. We're doing our job and the Class B and Class A in particular We don't have those documented risks associated with them all right very more more good news really absolutely and so. What are the biggest concerns during this time? is the health and safety of the water workforce people that are involved in all aspects of the process What what does all this mean for? Workers who deal with residuals bio solids. Water it kind of the recommendations that Of for their safety and health absolutely not definitely won't we WANNA keep at the forefront of all of this is really what we're recommending is just an alignment with the CDC an Osha recommendations which we provide in the documents and it's just a recommendation that workers and employers are managing the untreated residuals and slides. Just like any other untreated residuals and sludge. And so we are have gone through and kind of recommended that same personal protective equipment. That kind of follows the treatment through the plants so as the material progresses through treatment risk decreases so things like contact transfer. P P so things like gloves boots. Uniforms and coveralls really should be utilized throughout the operations. But making sure you have the addition of things like safety glasses or goggles. They shields in any areas that there may be slash hazards in particular at the beginning of the plant processes are right good. Glad to hear all that and I know that we also are sharing some written information. The paper that was put together And a bit of a summary on that. So we've we've got other information all this detail for people to take a look at will link to that in the in the podcast description so people can find it And just thanks to you and everybody on that team for really bringing scientific rigor to this situation on his guy during this time and we all really appreciate it and thank you for the information to that absolutely. We're we're happy to do this word part.

Russia Water Environment Federation Corona Associate Dean for Academic Af Carrie Bristle Laura associate professor of Environ Dr Bob Rubin Dr Bob Remers Travis Lsu US Tulane Basha EPA Gerber Louisiana State University Kobe Their School of Public Health EU CDC Osha
The Role Of Philanthropy In A Pandemic

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

48:23 min | 1 year ago

The Role Of Philanthropy In A Pandemic

"Thank you for listening to on point. We'd like to better understand who is listening. And how you're using podcasts. So please help us out by completing a short anonymous survey at NPR dot org slash podcast survey. That's one word. It takes less than ten minutes and it really helps support the show that's NPR dot org slash podcast survey and thanks from NPR and WBZ. Are Boston I'm micro Brady and this is on point today. We're GONNA talk about philanthropies. They are rising to the demands of this historic moment raising and giving away unprecedented funds aid and assistance. It's more than just twitter's Jack Dorsey giving a billion dollars for covert relief or Amazon's Jeff bezos giving away one hundred million dollars for food aid we're talking about local grassroots organizations and all the way up to major funds and corporate giving at the same time. Lets also ask. Now's the moment when philanthropies ought to rethink their entire approach. Their entire reason being should they be more than the spackle that fills in the structural gaps in American Life. How can they proactively work towards a more resilient America so this hour on point corona virus and philanthropies call to action? And we'll begin today with Yuna. Oh silly associate Dean for research and International Programs at Indiana University's Lilly Family School of philanthropy. The world's first school dedicated to increasing understanding of philanthropy. A welcome to on point. Thank you for having the thank you. Well first of all. I wonder how you might describe how philanthropies large and small are reacting to an and rising to the needs of this moment in the midst of the in nineteen pandemic. Thanks so much well. Let's start with the big picture as you know. This crisis is unprecedented in its scale on its impact and virtually every community around the world is impacted. So we're seeing a philanthropy really a step up in face of many of these challenges at the community level but we're also seeing a philanthropists working at a national level and in some cases connecting across borders as well One thing to keep in mind is that philanthropy has some unique advantages in this crisis in this moment local as national funders and donors have the ability to work flexibly to rice the challenge But the also can work in partnership collaborate with local governments with national governments and then the neighborhood level which I think has been one up the silver linings of this crisis or seen community organizations really worked to meet the needs of vulnerable neighbors of senior citizens and for those most in need at this time and especially at the neighborhood level because these they are working with their these plans are working with their neighbors. They know where the known is immediately and can actually target the areas and residents. That need the most help exactly. This is what researchers social scientists have called mutual aid in the past. But we're seeing that it's not just giving money but it's also rendering assistance. We often talk about the three TS and philanthropy time talent and treasure but we're also seeing people using their not just their time treasure and talents but also testimony sharing inspiration encouraging their neighbors posting on social media so there has been a very encouraging sort of strengthening of those local communities and ties and neighbors helping their own neighbors where those needs are the greatest You know according to the economist they have a little chart of current giving in the the Cova Age in the United States and it shows that corporate giving programs have have dispersed. Some two and a half billion dollars. We talked about those two individuals Jack Dorsey and Jeff bezos given away one point one billion most of that is Jack Dorsey. There's companies giving almost half a billion so it's quite a huge amount and then also again once again the grassroots efforts all down to individuals volunteering their time and money. How how does this actually compare to previous crises? In terms of the repeatedly and volume with which philanthropies are responding so the Lilly family school has been tracking philanthropic responses to disasters. Beginning with nine eleven. But it's very important to know that this is not a typical natural disaster. There is no clear starting point or ending point. And we're right in the middle of this. We have to provide a bit of context but those numbers that were starting to see not just the large gives the corporate and foundation giving but the individual gifts at the community level are unprecedented. Benny of the the numbers were starting to see in a much greater than we've seen in other disastrous so the fourth rapid response has been in fact a quite strong to this crisis. And as I mentioned it's not just the monetary donations unkind giving that we're seeing but also the sense of community and generosity of this moment. Dino do you happen to have a favorite example on right now that's popped up in the past couple of months. Yes so I have seen Neighbors for example there's the invisible hands organization that's getting volunteers thousands of volunteers to help deliver groceries for seniors. And then internationally we have the rice bax in Vietnam where philanthropies providing rice banks sort of like ATM's where people can get food when they need it and then you have neighbors that are sowing in their own. Homes with their own materials masks and providing them to people who can't access those for various reasons And those are just a few examples that we've also seen one of my most inspiring examples. Are College students that are volunteering to tutor? Students who are being home-schooled right now and their parents perhaps are frontline workers so they're using Zoom and other technologies to actually provide that our home homework assistance and homeschooling assistance and many of those examples have not necessarily received as much attention. But they are really. What's keeping many families and communities are going at this time will dino silly stand by here for just a moment because I want to turn now to login Montgomery Tehran. She's CEO the W K Kellogg Foundation an organization dedicated to helping vulnerable children by strengthening their communities and they've been quite busy during the time of the covert nineteen pandemic login Montgomery Tehran. Welcome to on point. Thank you so much. I'm honored to be here. Can you describe to me a little bit about the work that the Kellogg Foundation has been doing in the past two months? Well you know. There's one thing about the Kellogg Foundation that I think I should start within. That is our. We're an organization that has been steeped in community community engagement community leadership and community creating equitable communities. Since our founding and so in this moment of crisis we were very close to our Graentiz on the ground again. All of our communities across the nation and first and foremost quote directly to them and wanted to know what they needed And we know that this is going to be a long term effort so we started out your small mid up when Lee. We're now moving to think about the next year. And several years era. After how do we rebuild a nation? That's more equitable so that we don't have the disparities seen during this crisis our investments have been two or three fold the first is the collaborative efforts that we engage them. We immediately connected with communities and other funders and other organizations providing frontline support in communities we invested in those collaborative efforts. We also work directly with our nonprofit grant teas and determined what LEX ABILITY. They need it from our on advancement future payments Renegotiation of purpose of payments giving them resources immediately to adapt and shift to whatever they need to do for the crisis. We are now looking at what we believe are very opportunistic investments. Knowing that we've been disrupted we know we've been disrupted as a nation. The nonprofit sector has been disrupted. And how do we now re imagine a future? And what opportunities can we leverage to change these systems that were creating these disparities in the first place? Okay systems that are failing. So can I just jump in here because this is a very important part of the conversation that I was going to hold for later in the show? But let's just dive into it right now because you brought it up. I do wonder when we're talking about The inequities that cove nineteen has shown a light on inequities that we already knew were there. But they're they're inescapable now in terms of it being put into the in front of the eyes of the nation you know we're talking about poverty lack of access to equitable education. We're talking about racism etc. These are systemic challenges in the United States so specifically speaking how do you see the nonprofit sector shifting from being an important source of targeted funds and efforts to A part of the system that is America to force that can actually make positive change in these systemic problems. Well as you said. I think this is a moment. I believe that the Kellogg Foundation founded in Nineteen thirty after the Great Depression We've been leaning into these lessons of how you can recover from. A devastating tragedy and our principles are bringing back democracy The principles of this foundation are built on how all people participate in government how we create a community capacity to help themselves and to have the leadership the agency the capacity the intellect to know how to navigate. B.'s moments and so our work for decades has been about building up the capacity and in some ways I feel like our communities are strong and they are capable right now with leaders and knowledge to stand together collaborate and address these systems. And I'll give you an example in Detroit and we've been we have an office in Detroit. Were part of the philanthropic fiber of the Detroit community. What we noticed in this moment was that children Of the Detroit System Public School System. Were not getting back to school as other communities. Were a fifty thousand. Households didn't have a technology. They didn't have either equipment or Internet access and the business community in the city of Detroit stepped up and said we want to be a part of making sure that the digital divide and we've talked about for decades doesn't impact the Children of Detroit. Just hold on a second because do have to take a quick break and when we come on the other side of the break I want to hear what the Kellogg Foundation did about the digital. Divide that you're talking about in Detroit so hang on for just a moment and teen acilia standby as well. We are talking about the role of philanthropies in the covert nineteen pandemic. And whether or not this is a moment to really rethink what. The role of philanthropy should be in American life. So we have a lot more to talk about when we come back. This is on point. WanNa add more positively to your podcast feed checkout kind world stories of extraordinary kindness and compassion. That's kind world. Subscribe now on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen. This is on point. I'm We are talking this hour about philanthropies and the rule. They're playing right now in the midst of the Kobe. Nineteen pandemic and whether or not that rule should shift and become a little different After this pandemic to help build a more resilient America I'm joined today by Anna. Oh silly she's associate Dean for Research and international programs at the Indiana University Lily Family School of Philanthropy and Login Montgomery. Tehran also joins US she. Ceo of the W K Kellogg Foundation. And login you were telling us about some work about The digital divide amongst schoolchildren in Detroit that Kellogg had has been undertaken. Go ahead and finish that story short. Thank you as I was saying. You know we've known about the digital divide. We talked about it. We've warned We have warnings where we were saying. This could be an issue and then it came to light right before our eyes we saw fifty thousand households in the city of Detroit with young children. Were not getting back to school. They didn't have Internet access. They couldn't do online learning and the corporate community in Detroit stepped up and said they wanted to not only solve this digital divide issue would doing only five days and they called on philanthropy partner. And so while you know it was easy to think about purchasing the technology and we even got An Internet company of this up and provide free Wifi But what we knew we also needed was to build a social infrastructure around this body of work so that training and protocols and Everything would be in place to sustain this effort long-term so Philanthropy is collaborating. Kellogg Foundation stepped up immediately and What we know is this. These tools in households won't just be for the young children and their education but adults need these tools as well all the job listings are now online. People are applying for new jobs via the Internet. We're going to vote in November. Possibly online since twenty twenty is active this year online and to think if a thousand households in one city were not equipped to debate in this. So this is bigger than Colbert is. How ALANTHEIA PECAN think about rebuilding a future? Where there's more equity and address these issues of racial inequity. Okay so let me let me ask you just For the Free Wi fi that those fifty thousand households are getting now will be free forever or is it just temporarily right now. It's been extended between Six months a year. But what we're looking at is. How do we continue to provide affordable and think about This as a utility right just like we're providing water and electricity. So the reason why I'm asking and I say this with all due respect because everyone. Who's in the nonprofit sector in the in the full philanthropic sector does it is in the sector? Because they want to help. They are genuinely driven by mowed my motivation to help society. But I hear about efforts lake providing laptops and free Wi fi as while very laudable as kind of like fixing a broken window on a house when really what needs to be fixed as the foundation of the House. It's the foundation that's crumbling. We still have rampant income inequality. We still have racism. We still have. Perhaps you know rents perhaps that many of these fifty thousand households simply can't afford that like every less penny is going to. They have no savings they have. Maybe even just it's hard for the kids even get to school because of transportation there are all these fundamentals that are the foundation of the House. That is America that we could fix all the windows. We want but the house still might fall down. So what are philanthropies? How are philanthropies positioned to help start fixing that foundation? I agree with you one hundred percent. If that was the absolute only thing that was happening you would be absolutely correct but I think in this moment. We are thinking both short term near term and long term. And so yes. You're absolutely right what there's also or going on to think about. How do you address? These racial is systems that we've known about for decades. And and how do we collaborate in that space? We have a lot of knowledge around these issues. We've been studying them. We know where the root causes are some of it is how you think about creating More equitable policies in the country. That don't embed disparities and inequities in the policy itself There's work going on in that frame as well and really thinking about for example in The economy and you're thinking about workforce we've been looking at workforce opportunities and building pathways etcetera. And then here we are in this crisis and when you name the ascent Joe worker the essential worker has become those on the front line rose in health care. Those and food systems in food production. Why aren't those essential? Workers hate appropriately forever A living wage have access to health care and ability to create a livelihood for themselves and their families. Were looking at those kind of issues in as we're fixing this issue of the pandemic. How do we rebuild policy that allows for workers who are essential right to have a quality life and livable way? Well you're talking about perhaps philanthropies taking on more of an advocacy role which is very interesting and complex future Login but but let me turn back to you here for a second because again this. This pandemic is historic and unique in our lifetime. So it's a little difficult to compare it to pass actions by philanthropic organizations but we also only have the history that we have so. I wanted to just share this with you that I'm seeing here. This is This is data from the Center for Disaster Philanthropy and they found that in two thousand seventeen when we had hurricanes Harvey Maria and Irma wreaking havoc across parts of the Americas and the Caribbean that sixty percent philanthropic giving went to organizations that were really helping with immediate emergency assistance totally make sense but only twenty five percent of funding in two thousand seventeen after that immediate emergency need only a quarter of the funding went to preparedness mitigation and recovery. So I'm thinking an analogy in my head now is as login is talking about. The long-term need to really fix some of the structural foundations of America could and should philanthropies especially the deeply pocketed ones in instead of giving twenty five percent to building more. Resilient America ought to be thinking about giving thirty forty. Fifty percent really shifting. The focus of their work is after two thousand twenty. I appreciate you bringing that up. I think I like at let you and I agree with you. One hundred percent I would echo that there is both a short term and a long term effort and both need our attention One thing to keep in mind is that in the past we have tended to focus a lot of our efforts in the immediate response but this is an unprecedented moment and the challenges that this pandemic has on covered a has exposed. These longstanding disparities will take several decades if not longer to address So I think this is a moment for philanthropy but also all organizations. This is not a these problems cannot be fixed by one sector low and we talk about a three sector solution. We need philanthropy certainly to have a place at the table but we need governments and private organizations corporations to work in partnership one thing that we have seen philanthropy do in previous crises. Which I think is very well positioned to do in. This moment is to lift up. These concerns to lift up these inclusion issues and also to provide Testing grounds for for some of these solutions can be scaled up in the face of the pandemic and even beyond so. I can't help but to ask this question and I'm not I'm not keeping the responsibility on the two of you but I have to ask this out loud. You know I'm thinking about the fact that at the top of the show we talked about how to individuals in America to individuals are able to give one point one billion dollars. 'cause they have the money corporate giving is two point five billion dollars and we're talking about how maybe should philanthropy shift their focus to help help not just patch the social safety net but strengthen it overall aren't we don't we have a social afraid social safety net to begin with because for example we've got corporations were paying effective tax rate of zero percents and that we have. These donor advised funds where folks like Mark Zuckerberg can basically shove their money in for a while take tax break off of it and not necessarily even have to start giving away the money philanthropic -ly I mean. I just wonder should philanthropy. Start advocating for the kind of structural change. That does things like change the tax code so that we have money to have a strong social safety net. Ona well let me just turn the question around a little bit and see that one thing. We need to keep in mind. This crisis is that philanthropy is much broader than just the donations of the wealthy But also cuts across generosity across all income and wealth and racial and ethnic groups in this crisis. One thing that we also seen is that communities of color are not just recipients of philanthropy. But they're also very important donors and their contributions have often been underappreciated. I think it's interesting that when we talk about the large donors. They've been donors of color for examples steph curry and his wife. I shall really stepped up in. There are contributions to the crisis providing food for a school children who are out. I'm not able to access federal funds. But then we've also seen communities of color at the neighborhood level who are responding to this crisis so one thing I would like us to make sure of as part of this response that we brought in the definition of philanthropy and we understand that generosity is not just something. That is the purview of the wealthy but also extends a deep American tradition with longstanding roots. And the TAP people of all different backgrounds in this moment are mobilizing in very Unia. Point out something here because point taken and I'm very very glad that you brought that up because we can't be too narrow in our view of what a quote unquote a full American philanthropist. I completely take that on board. I guess what I'm saying is and what you're hearing me decry. Is that if anything I this crisis has. I think it should be strengthening our resolve to try to build an America where groups like the Kellogg Foundation don't have to rush into the fray to help provide emergency. Wifi for kids and one of the ways of doing that and legitimate. I'll turn back to you is too. I mean we're talking about equity and we have a financial system. That is so fundamentally inequitable that we have vast resources that are squirrelled away in corners that will never be used for the good of the vast majority of Americans. Isn't that a problem? Yes it's a problem absolutely it's a problem and I think we've committed our entire existence to that problem and And we will continue to do that. So you know in the case of the Caliph Caliph Foundation. We haven't rushed in We've been there from early stages and the one thing I want to say is. Philanthropy is more than just money right We have knowledge. We have resources. We've we've invested and studies and pilots. This is a moment where we can take that knowledge and put it in the right places so that as we are beginning to get into the act of rebuilding and re imagining that we're not starting from scratch We have knowledge and data to show where the disparities are what the actual actions need to be. If you take any of these systems we have recommendations for how to rebuild a more. Equitable system is not built in racialist structures. We've studied housing for decades. We know what redlining as we know the reason that people are attracting coded. I'm very dense. Population is a result off longstanding policy around redlining and Housi- we can bring that data so bland. Therapy can also use influence knowledge and the collaboration and partnership of all of us coming together and helping and making sure that our investments are not counterproductive but we are investing in this knowledge and bringing for the data when it's going to be used more while we have the attention of the nation and the agency to begin to address these issues. Lets us what we know to make them? Right will June Montgomery. Tehran is CEO. Of the W K Kellogg Foundation June. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you very much appreciate the time and you know. This is a moment for a collaboration and partnership I couldn't Express how urgent in is for us to bring all that. We know to bear to change these systems now in ever exactly. I magnin shocker. Birdie this is on point or WANNA hang on here for just a moment because I now want to bring into the conversation Rajiv Shaw. He's president of the Rockefeller Foundation. Science Driven Organization focused on improving health food and economic mobility around the world. They've contributed fifty million dollars to covert nineteen relief. Thus far Rajiv Shah. Welcome to you. Thank you for having me. I wonder if you could just describe it in a little bit more detail where that Fifty million dollars has has gone to and how it compares to a previous Funds that that foundation the Rockefeller Foundation has dispersed prior crises. Sure we'll let me just start by maybe stepping back and addressing something you were raising in your earlier segment. Which is this should be an extraordinary wakeup call in America. Roughly one in five American workers are now unemployed in extraordinary number that exceeds that of the Great Depression. Seventeen percent of America's kids are going hungry on a day-to-day basis a number that exceeds even the great recession at the two thousand eight financial crisis. We have a response to this pandemic. That is really a a fifty states. Trying their best response that has not managed to have testing and contact tracing a level that is necessary for the American economy to be active while also keeping the venerable populations as safe as possible and the result is Is the federal government has had to step in and put trillions and trillions of dollars into both supporting capital markets or Wall Street and supporting Working families or mainstream. And what we've seen is the the more than four trillion dollars. It has gone into supporting. The capital. Markets has effectively stabilized. Those markets in Wall Street is performing strong relative to the circumstances and the efforts to support main street have not worked nearly as well and are now likely to be reduced in scale and scope. So you know we've gotten to this point because American society has become over the last four decades tremendously unequal. And all of the issues. You were raising tax policy. How the country supports builds a safety net that people can actually use while also working and how people have access to health education and genuine economic mobility. Are All the big policy issues? We should be talking about well. So we believe foundation should be strong advocates on those things. And that's exactly what the Rockefeller Foundation is attempting to do. So we'll talk more about how you doing that in just a moment. This is on point need to escape the news for a moment checkout endless thread a podcast from wr and read it from mysteries histories two stories that will remind you of our shared humanity. Subscribe to endless thread on Apple podcasts. Or wherever you listen this is on point. I'm Magnet Chalker Bardy tomorrow. We're going to be talking about childhood. It's supposed to be a time of imagination and magic. So what's childhood like in the middle of an historic pandemic? We want to hear from you and your kids. What is childhood like for them right? Now get him on the phone and let them tell us. And if you lived through past collective historic time mass migration World War an attack of some kind. How did that change who you were as a child? And how did those events stay with you three or adulthood? Tell us your story at six one. Seven three five three zero six eight three six one seven three five three zero six eight three. I WanNa hear from the kids of day and the kids of yesteryear as well. Today we are talking about philanthropies and their role in helping America become more resilient after the covert nineteen pandemic and I'm joined today by. Oc She's Associate Dean for Research and international programs at the Indiana University Lily. Family School of Philanthropy and Jeeves. Shaw also joined us. He's president of the Rockefeller Foundation and a former administer administrator at USA. Id in two thousand fourteen. He led the US government response to Ebola in west Africa. And Reggie before the break. You're just starting to tell us how you feel or how the Rockefeller Foundation feels that philanthropy should take are more a greater advocacy role. Tell me more. Philanthropy is just too small to compare to the public sector when it comes to providing public goods to our population and so for example American needs in a one hundred billion dollar investment to expand access to testing and contact tracing so that everyone in this country who needs a test can get a test and once they are confirmed positive. Someone or some technology product can help record who they've interacted with and can go attest. Those people who then have become a higher risk in more vulnerable America by the way did this during the crisis in two thousand fourteen in West Africa led an effort that helped deploy almost three thousand American troops. We put bioterror labs throughout West Africa. We got testing to be ubiquitous. And we got down from eight to nine days to get an answer to under four hours doing everything from deploying helicopters to putting our own technicians on the ground to help make sure that we could test and then trace the epidemic. That effort is not happening at the scale it needs to America and so the Rockefeller Foundation pulled together. Scientists industry experts investors and government leaders from both Democratic and Republican administrations in created. A national action plan for testing. We set targets. We said we have to go from one million tests a week to three million and then importantly to thirty million test a week by the fall and we laid out a concrete series of actions. That could do that then. Put almost fifteen million dollars into efforts to put that plan into place and wild that fifteen million dollars has been critical to getting the plan going. The reality is Congress has unallocated allocated I think almost twenty five billion dollars to the testing plan that has been put forward and we heard yesterday the White House Talk about the first round of implementation of that in committing eleven billion of that to states and localities. That's the kind of public private partnership focused results-oriented that involves taking risks in using our voice and not just our pocketbook to make sure the change happens at the scale of this country. Needs it in right now whether it's the pandemic response in accelerating that averting a massive food crisis that's causing too many American children to go hungry or recognizing that the folks that are essential workers right now who are being appropriately celebrated have lived in economy that over four decades across Republican and Democratic leaders have have basically gotten short shrift and have not gained economically while the rest of the economy he did produce productivity and wealth for those who have capital until we're serious about real systemic changes in those areas of American life. I suspect we will not have learned the lessons. That got us into this Economic Atrophy. So this has come up a couple of times that the that there's untapped potential in the kinds of public private partnerships that Rajiv described and that login described earlier. Would you agree with that that this is a place where awful antibodies be actually punch above their weight? And and and encourage even more change through these kinds of partnerships. Absolutely I think. Collaboration is actually one of the strengths of the philanthropic sector and the scale of the crisis the unprecedented nature in the fact that we're dealing tilling not just with a health crisis but also skating. Economic Crisis means that no one sector not government not the private sector or philanthropy. Alone can solve these problems we need innovation from all three sectors coordination. Really pulling resources together and resources are not just the financial aspects but as we know. Ted All of the assets that the three sectors bring to the table the knowledge the expertise and the technology to actually solve these I would say on precedent and also At scale that we've never at least not in our lifetime seen before Do you think this crisis is big enough and all encompassing enough? And I've I've been curious about this regardless regardless regardless of the sector so this isn't unique to philanthropy but I'm I want to know how you think about it in the world of philanthropy that we won't go back to business as usual before that we won't just see that five percent mandated giving rate or the or funds being given out mostly restricted funds. That kind of thing that that this is really a seismic shift here. I think we're still in the middle of the crisis. Very hard to say at how this will ultimately change the sector but what we are seeing now is very encouraging not just in the United States but around the world I a lot of foundations and corporations are providing a great deal of flexibility to their Graentiz. Whether that's an increasing payout rates providing technology or just providing support for those organizations so they can meet their mission but were also see creativity and innovation from nonprofits themselves in the way that they're providing services working with their stakeholders and once again meeting their vicious. I think this is really a moment. Where the crisis calls for new ways of conducting our work but also. I think leads us to think about innovation and creativity in a way that we haven't had to in the past so it could be an inflection point. Not just for the funding side of philanthropy but also for the nonprofits the millions of nonprofits the United States and then ultimately this is a global crisis. And we're seeing a menu organizations around the world really Work in different ways to meet the challenges of this moment. And Reggie same question to you. What do you think well I you know? I think if you look at and I heard your numbers earlier in my view. The charitable contributions sector in America's somewhere between four hundred and four hundred fifty billion dollars on an annual basis. So you know. Two and a half billion of corporate giving is not in my view of particularly impressive number When we're facing great depression like shocks to our economy and our society and frankly a nineteen eighteen pandemic like shocks to our health. I would I would agree with that just but just so that I'm clear to listeners. Those were numbers regarding Giving a right around the the period of the pandemic thus far so so that's corporate giving since you know roughly mid March in most Most American giving is is frankly. It's a great tradition in our history that we should be very proud of but most of it goes to a local schools Alma maters universities hospitals. Which is a great thing and and to museums and other local amenities in that context. Actually if you look at the share of such giving that goes to providing social services and supporting those who are most vulnerable in American society writ large. It's very very small when you look at how much we do on an international basis Outta that pool of philanthropic giving it's it's even smaller so the reality is institutions like the Rockefeller Foundation the Gates Foundation Their fifteen or twenty major philanthropic institutions in America that do most of the international giving and this has been an important moment for us band together and do the types of things that can help improve global coordination in the spirit of the pandemic response avert food crises that are taking hold now in Africa in South Asia in recognized that actually for any assessment of emerging economies in their performance over the next decade. Makes it likely that we will rewind ten to fifteen years of poverty reduction in move a few hundred million people back under the hunger and poverty line on a global basis in? That's a tremendous in huge unmet? Need that again is less likely to be. It's not GonNa be solved by philanthropy. It could be solved by philanthropy taking a lead in working with the World Bank the IMF countries around the world to affect a public private approaches to to policy in. That's really what the Rockefeller Foundation is working on. So we just WANNA be her. Do A minute ago the her her the right number. How how much did you say that you see? The total philanthropic sector is on an annual basis. American philanthropy is by charitable contribution is roughly four hundred plus billion dollars a year. Okay and that's across the board right. That's across the board that includes people giving to their mo-modern joining their alumni association anything. That's a charitable deduction that great needful institution of Harvard University for example. But I mean I say that more than with a little bit of tongue in cheek because I guess my question to you res- even the last thirty seconds that we have is. I hear you beginning to make an argument that like we could even within that body of giving it could be going to different places. Yeah absolutely I mean we. We believe in the Rockefeller Foundation as giving is focused firmly on the needs of vulnerable families and vulnerable children at home and around the world. And that's why when we build public private partnerships whether it's to accelerate testing and contact tracing in this country to thirty million tests a week or whether it's to address the fact that thirty million kids had previously received their primary nutrition through school lunches and now are no longer getting access to that benefit and as a result child hunger in this country is now north of seventeen percent Or whether it's to improve economic mobility by working with states and local communities to expand access to earned income tax credit family medical leave. That's paid And other bipartisan benefits. That we know can help the essential workers that are keeping US afloat right now. We're willing to use our voices advocates and as partners in addition to as terrible donors. We'll Rajiv Shaw's president of the Rockefeller Foundation. Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for having an Associate Dean for research and international programs at the Indiana University Lily. Family School of Philanthropy. Thank you thank you for having me. Thank you okay. Let's shift gears here. A tiny bit outside of the CDC recommendations of keeping yourself safe. How else can we BE PROACTIVE IN CURBING? Kobe nineteen well. How about becoming a citizen scientist? The folding at home project is a distributed distributed computing project for simulating the movements of proteins implicated in a variety of diseases. The project brings together anyone who wants to tear to run simulations of protein dynamics on their personal computers. I am ready player. Emma and I am a Gamer streamer and a computer engineer. Emma is a volunteer folder. One of the Army of folders dedicating their personal. Cpu time to the folding at home project. The software runs in the background. While you're on zoom in a meeting or gaming for example with her help along with millions of others. The folding at home project has collectively created a supercomputer that is imaging key proteins found in the novel Corona Virus. We're actually capturing that with our simulations and it's it's really cool to see it kind of reminds me of the mouth of one of these Democrats monsters from the television series stranger things. And it's it's kind of frightening to to see this thing opening up ready to grab onto. Its that's Greg. Bowman Associate Professor at The Washington University School of Medicine in Saint Louis and director of the folding at home project. He estimates all folders are now contributing processing power computing processing power ten times faster than the world's fastest. Computer Greg in Emma told us more about the project it's difficult for people including myself to be isolated basically to be not going anywhere to so many different ways. Our lives have changed and that's difficult to cope with being able to feel like you can contribute something active. I feel like a really important kind of psychological benefit an emotional relief you know where a bunch of drops in the ocean and collectively. We've created this massive super computer that is actually having a major impact on the research the virus so it's an incredible way to sort of have that psychological relief of okay. I'm doing my part. I'm staying at home to slow the surprise and now I'm doing even more. I'm actually helping the scientists find a treatments and hopefully cure with fully a home. We've had a number of past successes that are relevant and so we're bringing the same sorts of tools to bear on the proteins that the corona virus uses to infect human cells of aid our immune systems and replicate itself so one of the focus points right now has been on a complex three proteins called the spike at. We're actually capturing that with our simulation you can also become. Part of this. Chock community are part of the online forums and interact with other people who are doing the same thing and folding at home. Has this really cool protein. Viewer that shows. You like what it's processing in a scientists that are involved actually come into the chat and respond to like. Oh that's That's actually a cell membrane like this color. Sphere is this molecule and it takes it away from just being some abstract thing and you really feel like wow. I truly an part of the science going on here. We have the potential to actually impact the pandemic and we can't make any guarantees of what the outcomes are. Work are going to be year. What timescale they're gonNA come on. But the fact that we can legitimately offer the opportunity to have some probability of finding a way of combating. This ours is a big deal and the fact that people can participate in and feel like they're taking action and they're not just helpless and powerless. But they're actually powerful and can can help is really amazing to see. And it's amazing to see the community's response coming together to pitch in everything that Camp Greg Bowman Associate Professor at the Washington University School of Medicine in Saint Louis and director of the folding at home project. We also heard from Emma. One of the many volunteer folders dedicating a part of her processing time to help process data on the novel Corona Virus. If you want to find out how you can volunteer for the folding at home project. Good Point Radio Dot Org. I'm Meghna Chakrabarti. This is on point.

Americas Rockefeller Foundation W K Kellogg Foundation United States America Detroit associate Dean for Research CEO Rajiv Shaw Family School of Philanthropy president associate Dean for research an Tehran NPR Jack Dorsey Apple Boston Graentiz
S7E09: Mark Bloomfield + Shaun Borstrock

The Design of Business - The Business of Design

28:44 min | 1 year ago

S7E09: Mark Bloomfield + Shaun Borstrock

"Welcome to the design of business. The business of design where we introduce you to people from all over the world from different industries and disciplines. We're here to talk about design business and the values that govern how we had worked and lived together just a helfand flying solo for special across the pond episode. ASSODE ELLEN mcgirt will be back next time. The design of business. The business of design is brought to you by mail chip. So you want to grow your business. Now what male chimps Olin Marketing Platform allows you to manage more of your marketing activities. All in one place so you can market smarter and grow faster now. What what mail chimp? That's what learn more at mail. CHIMP DOT COM on today's episode fashion luxury and Three D. printing. I mean we've done waistcoats. We've done evening gowns. We also have different types of links so we have linked that you can inset Swarovski ski or crystal so we've made a garment that has got I think. Twenty Eight Thousand Crystals Mark Bloomfield is a jewelry designer and the founder of electro bloom a design and manufacturing studio in London. Sean four-stroke is Associate Dean for Business and innovation at the University of heart furniture where he directs the digital hack class together. They run mode clicks which makes wearable three D. printed clothes shawn and mark to the podcast. Thank you so we're recording today at the University of Hartford shareware Sean is a dean and mark is a visiting professor. I am actually a visiting professor. Can you tell our listeners. We're Hartford your is and how each of you ended up with a connection to this place. Hot Future is about twenty five minutes north of central London so the twenty five minutes on the train. From King's cross. I ended up here about fourteen years ago starting as an associate head of school. And I've been here ever since working in the school and the university as a dean and an associate dean. And what's your excuse. I came here via Sean. Uh Essentially I've known for a number of years and we worked together in the past. And then when he was sort of establishing the technology part of the digital hack lap we start to collaborate and work worked together around that Shannon. You were born in South Africa. So how did design enter into your life. At what point did you know you wanted to be a design person. Well that goes back many years as a child. We traveled quite extensively as a family living. In America Israel Israel Belgium England in fact has spent very little time in South Africa. But I think it was my both my parents were very a fashion-conscious mother ran fashion. Stores in Johannesburg in the seventy s and my father had a leather factory so I was always kind of surrounded by that world and then I think it was probably when we lived in Belgium and my father took my mother shopping. Dave Senator Ron. thera became really interested in clothing. And then it just kind of blossomed from clothing was your way into design. Clothing was mowing to design. In fact I started doing graphic design degree Eh as my first degree and then I stopped making clothes and I had my first. Fashion show is a seventeen year old with a clothesline. Well all I showed with the designer who designed dynasty like the television showed. Oh yeah mm and mice first collection was shown with him at what was then the women's World Fair but then I sat up my own studio a licensed. My name out and sponsored Musab African nine hundred ninety one so you have a long standing interest in luxury. That's right and it comes out of that that those people in that work and always very interested in craft and materials and then became much more interested in why people by the things they buy. Math was my expiration into luxury which still exists today. We're GONNA come back to that in a moment but I don't want mark to fill we forgotten in here. You were not born in South Africa and I don't think you came up through fashion. Not The origin story of Mark. So my background is is in making things and I think that came about purely because I grew up quite isolated in the country Up in Suffolk which is North East of England very rural and so I learned very quickly to start making things my hands my father was a welder alta so I suppose there was that sort of making heritage heavy like in the family so as always around sort of engineering light engineering working with metals and basically it could be turning things into things and you went to school to study. What kind of design so initially I went to school to study graphics? But you you like Sean Spent many years designer jewelry and luxury goods working at places like asprey and Simon Harrison. What were you driven? Also or drawn on also I should say to to sort of high end refinement It was more. I think the idea that once I'd sort of figured out that I could make do things and then it was a scale. I used to work at so then that seemed to be more suited to jewelry and particularly as both dealing with customers and making things that would actually fit people pick with people's lives then wanted to explore that at all levels so luxury was one end but it was also fast fashion high volume manufacturer designing for that whole industry as well as designing jewelry for technology for the Financial Services Industry for example. So it's really trying to explore how that one area could be sort of used in lots of different Instances you quickly describe for our listeners. Who might not know what fast fashion is? An whites differed from other kinds of fashion short. So one of the things I suppose. I was always interested in the idea of connecting with the material in using tools to actually get the best out of it so that as from a luxury perspective where it sort of sets goal it's about getting the very best there's obviously time constraints and expertise are also related to that but fast. Fashion is driven like a machine so essentially about seasonal cycles so in most cases it's two months or four times a year developing new collections. And that needs to be done in quite a short cycle so generally Dan reworking eighteen months two years in advance of the actual delivery date On its quantity that you're shipping out to the stores So there's clearly really an economic benefit to those involved in fast fashion but it seems to me there's also an ethical component about either cutting corners. Or what you're giving up or even possibly Blais people being exposed or abused in some way Sean. Could you talk a little bit about the maybe the dark side of that show. I mean I think the you most recognized incident around. The exploitation of the workforce was in Asia with the burning down of one of the factories that that supplied many large fashion companies. And I think what we see. Increasingly is that in order to be able to produce the huge volumes of product that there is an element of exploitation of the workforce the the counter argument would be that you know. Those workers are owning and living in whichever environment they are but they're working to such a scale and at such a pace that they are producing hundreds of millions of products every day probably in order to satisfy the demand of the stores that are selling four pairs of socks for a pound or a pair of jeans for nine pounds saying that. It's not an isolated within fast fashion and producing things very quickly to be consumed very quickly. Some of the luxury brands also adopt patterns where they are mass producing using products in order to satisfy the demand of the markets that they have created albeit defined within a luxury brand category. So so I think there's a fine line between dedicated craftsman who are working in isolation in the Italian as in you know whether tingling numerical Franso Italy to some luxury Brian Manufacturers that are manufacturing in these huge factories trees producing hundreds of thousands of goods. How do you mark Reconcile for example. The B. spoke in the handmade and the craftsmanship tip with the economics of mass production. Are Are you do both things. Are you always working in there. For example your studio on balancing that between having to produce set scale and produce things that are more specific. Yeah I tried to do both. I like to basically sort of take the time to actually focus. Maybe on just a one off but then it's is also looking at how you can make that work in a production environment. It's also I've had a lot of dealings with production overseas in the Far East Lots of factory visits and then also looking at how can I actually bring some of that manufacturing maybe back to the UK so he's also looking at sourcing out factories and trying to kind of undertake nick production in are you sourcing them because of their skills or because of the cost benefit or because of what. I'm because I think it's ashamed that we lose that connection to manufacturing heritage. I think it's important that we make things and we continue to make things. So I suppose says says veering towards US becoming more sort of service. Orientated as I was already losing that connection to things and that's not necessarily a a good thing because I think it's the actual things that actually connect us to our reality. How does that connect to your exploration of things like three we? D printing technologies so I suppose when I was making things as a kid I also grew up with the whole home computing market. So I kind of saved up my my paper money and bought my first one started programming so that was back in eighty five things where you progress well it. It was very sort of basic at that time and so the language was basic. It's really just about. How do you get sort of strings of text to kind of come up on on the screen but then also looking at how do you you then begin to kind of plot points in space so that you can begin to get some sort of a three d representation of cube for example that would rotate magic eminence amazing but looking back it was also understanding a quite an early age that I could actually use technology to make things and so became another tool tool and you didn't feel that three D.? Printing was a release of craftsmanship. You are looking at incorporating it into a new kind of craftsmanship. Sure I'm when I was working as a fashion jewelry company I sorta sourced three D. Printer to buy in and so that design team had a bit more autonomy when it came to dealing with customers so they could use cad to actually model piece of jewelry for a customer and they can go and have the meeting with the customer and they could keep the discussion going development going but the the find trained craftsman also part at this company saw this as being was it. They were going to be getting their P forty fives and they were out of the door. The design of business. The business of design is brought to you by mail chimp. We spent some time at Elgin headquarters learning about the role of design in their business. I'm my name's Eric Toledo on director design. CX Here Mel Champ What that means? Is I help. Designers bring their vision to life design. It melts IMP is really special. We have so many different types of designers That cut across the entirety of our customer journey. So you know design arguably touches every piece of the customer experience right from our internal swag and campaigns to billboards to the way that we talked to the value you of our platform on our website to how our customers realized that value in the interactions and the tools that we provide our customers. The most exciting part of my job is working directly with the designers. And there's so many talented people on the design team. It's an honor to be a part of it male chimps. All in one marketing platform allows you to manage more of your marketing activities. All in one place so you could market smarter and grow faster now. What male chip? That's what learn more at mail. CHIMP DOT COM. So what was the first first. Time used a three D. Printer what year with Three D. Printing is quite sort of unique. But essentially it's all about using numeric controls. It's using cad to actually drive a machine. I'm so the first machine I used was computer controlled lathe that we had university said that was again about eighty seven eighty eight and essentially we had to you draft the profile of a bead on a piece of graph paper read off the actual numbers where the graph paper correspond like the coordinates coordinates. Type those into green screen machine. Play this little lady were to life so that then sort of set at the scene for thinking. Wow what other machines are out there and then it was. I suppose because I was looking at jewelry. One of the first machines that came onto the market was the were the wax machines jeans because we use a lot of lost casting as a jewelry production process and wax is relatively soft and easy to manipulate so some of the first printers were wax based so that they could actually produce a master that we could then put through the loss West costing process. When did you start electric bloom? And why so I started electro bloom in two thousand and eleven and the reasons why is because I had at that point worked for a number of different industries and I suppose it was looking at jewelry in the context of gain from the from the perspective of luxury from the perspective of technology from the perspective of fast fashion. And although although I was I had that real opportunity to to make and to fulfill and have lots of happy customers that are really excited and grew as a result of of fat. I wasn't satisfied and I kind of felt like the has to be another way and so electric bloom. I suppose it was my vehicle. The I've I've been using to kind of show that there is another one and it's about sort of essentially using technology to build product but to do it in such a way whereby it's not only about three D. printing because the actual design of the objects is. I'm sort of focusing on Mogae Larry so that it means that my parts are always value in terms of inventory. I can change my inventory in the morning if I want to so. I can respond quickly to what people want can change things. So I can incorporate their ideas about what colors they want to what shape things should be. It's more like a research experiment. I think that concept tipped of modulator is a great transition to talking about mode clicks. Sean would you give us a little background on how this came about chew. It's about three years go now mark and I were talking about Three d printing. I have absolutely no skill in using CAD. I posed the question. Can we three D. print close because I've seen a lot of fashion that had been three D. printed but it wasn't actually wearable so that was the question I posed tomorrow as it can. We Three D. print clothes it's or textile and he then started working on a textile that was fully customizable. It's the first of its type ever to be invented. And then thought about this idea of how we would use it to to create garments that a wearable and also customizable so the fabric is continually reused. So there's very little waste once we print something we can make anything with it. See you can deconstructed and reconstructed like legos. That's right so it is soft legos. It's like soft Lego and we are gonNA wear leg us but sophomore. Consider it's K- knitted or woven texts and he doesn't lose its shape when it's taken apart car. No it doesn't lose shape. Made up of thousands. In some cases individual links that can be taken are put together and they float like a knitted waited fabric. And do they feel like fabric or did they feel like kind of plastic synthetic. I mean if you hold them. Each link is quite solid but the people who have warn them and there've been quite a few have said that it's incredibly comfortable to wear. I mean the amazing thing that we've discovered since making some of the first garments is that the garment slightly changes with your body temperature. So when you if you're freezing cold it maintains a very snug fit it and keeps the warmth thin because of the structure of the link. If it gets hot it's starts to breathe a bit. We sort of stumbled across this quite by accident. The this this came as Shawn's question of can we three D. print clothes and my sort of sharp intake of breath of kind of like. Oh my okay. Let's try. So what did you try fist. What we tried lots of because it is a plastic we're we're essentially printing in nylon and it was trying to kind of make something shown? TRAUMAS quite keen on the idea that this should have flexibility a lot of three D. printing garments up until that point have been amazing sort of structural forms. And this is kind of in joke in the industry about well. It's it's great but it'd be nice to be able to print something that I can sit down and so you know our objective was was to make something that was wearable would fit and the idea of links coming apart actually happened as a we had a failed build. I was kind of playing with what. Come out of that bill. It was kind of like well if I could just make this link detach and reattach than I could repair it so then. That's kind of the moment I suppose mode clicks was born and then we started making because the other problem that we encountered was. It's all well and good being able to print something. But how do you then make it fit someone. And if you're not a fashion design with the necessary catskills in order to be able to use the technology successfully then and you can't really see that through so our textile means that anybody can stop playing with it. They don't have to have those catskills in order the to create with it so sean was able to then using his history of making extraordinary fashion items able to make lots of amazing amazing garments using motorbikes in the traditional sense on address making Stan just by clicking panels together to get the shapes that he really wanted. Wow have you have. You've done accessories. If you've done neckties have you done a wedding dress. What's the sort of range here? Oh it's really broad. I mean we've done waistcoats. We've done evening gowns. We also so have built into mode clicks different layers or different types of links so we have a link that you can inset a Swarovski or crystal crystal so we've made a garment that is I think. Twenty eight thousand crystals we've made customizable things with company logos on them and they could be anything from you know just a little skirt to avast or an evening gown which is full length and like Moore says that the thing that is amazing about having something that is linking system is that if it doesn't fit there is not a problem because you could just add more links in or if if it's too big you can take links out so you know you can maintain the shape but continually customize it so that there's no real wastage right right. Does the nature of that kind of customization mitigate against sort of mass production. Yes I mean I I I you know. Most lakes is not something in its current form that we could mass produce however saying that and just following on from our CAS said is that there are opportunities for mode clicks to be bought anywhere in the world and then the customer takes it and just makes their own thing it produces shipping costs introduces color necessary manufacturing of huge quantities teased the textile so you just manufacture print in fact what you need. See you've managed to do. It seems to me in a sense. The impossible which is to create a B. spoke luxury cherie system that is actually good for the planet yet. I think it's also about sort of engaging the customer one of the things is the customers are fascinated cited by it so when they're playing and handling and being part of that whole process of fitting and asking them questions in terms of how do you want it to look you know. They sort of pulled into the process and then that's also the option to them begin to educate them about the material to the point. Don't you just made mark. I'm wondering if you see an economic future for mode clicks where for example. I'm thinking of things like stitch fix right. I'm thinking of ways of high end. Fashion being reused and I wonder if there's a kind of licensing or membership or kind of systematic social engagement with it where there's collaboration with you or with the machine over time and where actually you benefit. But it's not about you having to make everything for every person. Yeah that the models kind of exploring at the moment and it's purely because there are additional benefits here that we wanted to explore there are ways in which you can bring communities together so it was something something which we are very keen on involving for that human input to be paramount. Really in this whole operation. So it's about the people coming together. Sean have come up with a number of different ways in a number of solutions of how this can be put together but once we release it out there. I'm sure everybody else is going to come up with amazing things that they can do with it. Give competitors you see you don't know and it's something which isn't necessarily just about clothing as well so we're also looking at where you can turn your dress brass into a bag you know. And then that bag can become a cushion cover. And then maybe there's some sort of interior screening that can be made mark. What are you working on at electro bloom? That's not mode clicks and specifically. I have a have a sense that you have done some work with television and film An interesting clients that the average designer might not be in daily contact with shore. I worked on token which was at at the beginning of this year. There's projects are always lovely to do because they just allow you to kind of pick your whole design and making king ability against a very specific set of requirements so with with token for example. You know it was a very simple straightforward lamp but then also needed to be you know in terms of what you figure out where it's actually going to be filmed and the restrictions over the space and so it needed a cable because it also needed to be controlled environmental motor in order for it to spin particular speed. And so you got to build all of that. So I'm doing a little mental inventory right now mark. I'm thinking okay. Jewelry are- handcraft three D. printing fashion technology. What haven't you done that you want to do now? I started writing a lot as a as as a vehicle to explore different elements and then it's also looking at sort of the importance of of narrative in the design process. How you can begin to us as you know an imaginary state does bose to begin to kind of drive a design process? So it's something that I'm also then starting to deliver to the students as a way of thinking about how to come up with something. I will say that as an educator I share with you the fact that I never felt I had enough in my own education of direction about how to come up with my own on ideas and I came of age as as suited. I'm older than you are but I think we all came of age at a time where we didn't have youtube video showing instruction but now they exist. The fact that is a good student will educate themselves to be able to make produce materials. But how to come up with your own ideas. I think the biggest challenge for us as educators is Getting students to stop looking at the Internet. Uh we were running the design sprint which is Google Ventures project last week and You know we had shooting students and I was saying to them. You need to draw. I can't draw said we need to draw. Assemble no no I just need to go into Google to be inspired wired and our saying to them you can just look out the window to be inspired. Mark was saying when he was a kid being out in the country whittling. Would you. You know that's kind of a core skill in terms of finding your own creativity and not being reliant on things that everybody else is doing showing showing. It's kind of you know using your hands using your your mind and just thinking and I think that is what makes the good design thinker. I couldn't agree more and I thank you both so much for your time today. It's been wonderful. Thank you thank you. The design of business. The business of design is podcast from design observer. Our website is d. B B D Design Observer DOT COM. There you can find more information about today's guests. Sean bore stroke and Mark Bloomfield plus conversations with dozens of other people about the transformative role design plays in their business to listen. GO TO D. B B Dot Design Observer Dot Com. Tom If you like what you heard today please subscribe to this. PODCAST could find us in apple podcasts. spotify or ever you listen to podcasts. And if you're already subscribe to the podcast tell your friends about it or apple podcasts. And Rate US which is a great way to let other people know about the show between episodes keep up with designers. We're on facebook twitter and INSTAGRAM. And if you're not listening already check out our other. PODCASTS design matters Debbie Millman and the observatory featuring Michael Beirut and Handy our thanks to Lucas and tip Ernie Hill and everyone in the studio at the University of Hartford Shirt in Hatfield England where we recorded today's episode Mike Era Covert our team music. Julie Su Brin edited our show. Our interns are Edina Carp and Lena Ya'll and our executive producer is blake like Eskin of Noun and verb Rodeo big. Thank you to my founding partner in design observer and this shows Founding Co host Michael Beirut come back next time and we'll be talking to Elizabeth Alexander about poetry and philanthropy. I don't want everyone I meet to feel. They have to bend themselves for their work. Irk to how to get the funding. I mean I respect that. They're looking for the funding. But I'm interested in who are you. What are you doing see either?

Sean Mark Bloomfield Shawn Associate Dean for Business an University of Hartford London D. Printer Hartford visiting professor associate dean South Africa ELLEN mcgirt associate head King apple Johannesburg US UK Michael Beirut founder
Don't Fear the Libra - DTNS SPECIAL

Daily Tech News Show

25:21 min | 2 years ago

Don't Fear the Libra - DTNS SPECIAL

"Welcome to another daily tech news show special edition. I'm tom merritt and joining me today. I'm very happy to have tania. Evans wins associate dean of academic affairs director of the blockchain cryptocurrency and law certificate program at u._n._h. Franklin pierce school of law tonya. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. We're going to talk about libra and some <hes> some of the issues around libra <hes>. There's there's been a lot of talk around lebron. If people don't know about it you probably should go <hes> listen to one of our shows where we talk about an in depth but it's essentially a crypto currency like like product that facebook is proposing as an independent association that facebook could obviously take advantage of but would be run by multiple organizations innovations in fact. They say they have more than twenty organizations on board for this <hes>. There's a lot of nervousness. Shall we say around the idea of libra tanya in your view. What do you think are some of the main misconceptions about it well. It's it's a fantastic fantastic questions. Be a question because i think there are misconceptions on all sides of the proverbial coin <hes> no pun intended but i from <hes> <hes> the side of the crypto community <hes> actually i think somewhat clear headed <hes> and we focus a lot on whether or not libra would truly be a crypto currency as you would define from the perspective of public permission list blockchain based crypto asset <hes> and and the libra coin and actually there too and we'll get into that in a bit but the one that has actually pegged to a a basket of assets it because it will exist within the confines of a permission blockchain it is very different and so perhaps from a consumer or lay person <hes> point of view a one size fits. All term would be cryptocurrency or or more broadly as i like to talk about. There's a crypto asset but actually the libra coin <hes> would be very different than bitcoin for example or any other <hes> cryptic graphically quickly secure digital asset that secured by public permission this chain right and that will stay on yeah yeah go ahead and then quickly i would just say from <music> a regulator's perspective i think also they may take <hes> that same approach to lump all digital assets in the same basket and and to be really really careful. I think there was some great testimony a couple of weeks ago in d._c. To make sure that there was a distinction that was clear we are <hes> but some of the misconceptions <hes> more broadly yeah i think a lot of people here cryptocurrency and think bitcoin join and therefore think shady dealings right that's sort of the the knee jerk reaction to that and when you throw facebook into the mix <hes> people think other kinds of shady dealings ealing's perhaps is their perception <hes> and and the narrative that i see a lot of people having their discussions about it is that facebook wants to become a bank. Thank facebook's wants to print. Its own money the fact that this isn't that it's also not exactly cryptocurrency. How do you explain that to somebody. Uh-huh it. It feels to me heard somebody recently describe it as going to disneyworld and getting some some mickey books and while you're within that that atmosphere that has a transactional value you're able to do things perhaps that a discount while you're <hes> and disneyland or disney world outside of that context on text it doesn't have much user utility i think <hes> lever coin and facebook and the consortium would certainly argue that there would be a farther reach each then then this particular example but it's a good way to at least have the conversation of why this is something that would have great utility within the leaper berthier. Obviously there will be other wallet. She don't have to have a facebook account or what's app account or or be affiliated in particular with any of the consortium members as long as you had access to a wallet but it has that feel <hes> particularly because of the consortium and something that is permission that you have to you can get in but you could equally get kicked out and so that's a distinguishing characteristic as well yeah i mean analogies always a break if you stretch them too far but <hes> but i'll i try not to break it. I like that mickey bucks analogy. If you said the mickey bucks could also be used at other participating theme parks that join us like anxiety is island or six flags or whatever they may or may not join because i think the point with a lot of the criticisms that you try to emphasize to people as facebook isn't i do let me ask you. Do you trust it. When facebook says we won't have control of lieber wants. The consortium is underway. I actually do because i had this mental exercise and setting it up from my students in the fall as well. If we change change the name facebook everywhere it appears in the white paper for example and put in mozilla or some other entity that we would feel more comfortable with that didn't have all of the issues and privacy concerns not just transactional data but what about all of our data would we feel differently about it and i actually sleep think they worked really really hard to create to to you know to get ahead of all of the potential problems and then surround themselves with all of the things that we would do. Perhaps if you are i were to build this or the missoula's at the world war two to build it <hes> and so. I think it could be a lot. I would be a lot more excited about if it looks like that. <hes> the app when you inject facebook and facebook name into it you have all sorts of concerns because despite the fact that there's consortium you're right a twenty something <hes> members now from financial sector n._g._o. Sector to be scaled up to approximately one hundred <hes> and so i if that ah bears itself out they would only have one vote <hes> with all of the direction of the network and that in and of itself says it doesn't control it but they built it. They were have the initial infusion of money to oversee it there <hes> responsible for and in charge parts of the code even though it's open source code and with their history and track record and the fact that they are for profit. They're not altruistic. They move fast and break things. <hes> those are all of the concerns when you add you know the name facebook onto a project otherwise we might be a little more excited about yeah. I tried to to help people get past that because not want to excuse facebook. I think those are all valid concerns but if you're going to evaluate libra you need to evaluate it on its own merits and one of the reasons i wanted to talk to you is to find out what are some of the problems or challenges that libra is going to face beyond just is the obvious <hes> getting past trusting facebook and getting regulators <hes> to to understand what it is. I guess when you think about about from you know it's going to sound counter intuitive when i talk about adoption because they have this the biggest network in the world with which would be the fastest does on board to <hes> mainstream adoption of this type of coin which i would call a i call it a corporate currency or corporate currency but that is <hes> the natural natural progression for people to get comfortable with with something of that nature means. It's promising for the crypto community in general bickering particular as well <hes> but the idea not all of the <hes> the privacy concerns being an impediment. I ironically perhaps to adoption obviously with the regulatory issues <hes> throughout throughout the world <hes> but if you know bitcoin doesn't have that problem right because there's no central point of attack in a way that that <hes> facebook will have to move through this perhaps like the uber's the world to try on a jurisdiction by jurisdiction basis that big air. Am i am or am i out. I mean the reality of it is going to go forward for the jurisdiction switzerland obviously and others like it that will embrace it. <hes> i think the united states will too because they don't wanna get left behind. You know we're doing doing a lot of saber rattling now but it's the the if they intend to do this this year <hes> there's a lot to be put into place to get regulators around the world super skittish comfortable and also <hes> the educational <hes> pitch that they're going to have to do to get there <hes> to get consumers around the world on board not not just their own consumers but any that would interact with any of the consortium members and it seems like one of the one of the positives of this might be to help <hes> people people who are unbagged avoid some of the higher fees associated with transmitting and with check cashing and that sort of thing that's why the ngos are on board with the consortium. Do how do you feel about that. Do you think this has the promised to do that. I think it's certainly certainly does with their one point seven billion on banked or under bank in the world and we actually don't have to leave our own borders within the states to find that as well <hes> and even if there are wifi challenges we have second layer solutions that would help with that of course and and almost all of the world in many parts of the world where you think that there wouldn't be great infrastructure or technology. They have a device. They have a phone have access to food. <hes> an intermittently access says to wi fi environments for example <hes> or hardware storage in these things so it can do that. I don't think that's their overriding riding concern but that has always been kind of utopian <hes> conversation even in the crypto circles <hes> and i believe more altruistically so <unk> as well from a libertarian perspective the facebook side. I think the natural <hes> implications of this type of technology is going to help with a digital inclusion financial inclusion <hes> my concern is always that those who might need it most might be blocked by their governments <hes> until that will be interesting and i. I think any network might have to to navigate that space but that's certainly can be a benefit of of a project like that to be sure i've read some people <hes> saying saying that one of the biggest trump's would be figuring out how to buy in how how to get into the system. Do you think that that is a reasonable impediment. I think so no and i think we talk about this more broadly with a lot of projects and we would be no exception when you're talking about on boarding off boarding on ramping being offer empty and i suspect <hes> that facebook and in the consortium members are ahead of that game trying to make that easier <hes> but they're also going to still have to navigate navigate the regulatory environment because anytime you have some type of friction or some type of intermediaries we would say those are those choke points that are <hes> ripe for regulation and depending upon whether or not regulated around the world take a heavy handed approach <hes> what they do in terms of k._y._c. oh i see a._m. L. that came up a lot in the hearings and they're going to have to confront that. Those regulations could also be impediments <hes> ah well but and and so those are not insignificant things to resolve within this year now we mentioned earlier the idea of if facebook wasn't involved in lebron missoula was instead <hes> the perceptions would be different. <hes> is there the chance that something likely could take off without facebook facebook being involved in it. The short answer is yes but the question is the scale. I don't think there's any company on the planet in it. That has the scale of facebook and then you add that. The others are part of the consortium and it just makes it formidable bigger than any government quite frankly <hes> which is why why you have every government's attention to figure out now what is this again and how do we stop it and they said but there's the point <hes> with this type of technology the border list and all the other character cork eric characteristics that we talk about <hes> but it's the the reach of their network that is so <hes> both both impressive and and and frightening to figure out how to get a handle on something <hes> where when you're talking in the pure sense at least of of blockchain's and even distributed take ledgers of this nature the back that once it's up and running. It's very hard to to stop. Sorry go ahead. No go ahead. That's that's the point yeah yeah we were. You were mentioning to me. That walmart has a new patent filed about a kind of digital currency. There seems thanks to be tied to a single probably to the dollar right and more rights stored value card is is is there a potential there that walmart might try to create a competitor libra. It's sounds more like a single entity walmart as opposed to a consortium. It will certainly be permission in private in in that sense. I was trying to unpack the patent and they're giving it a light touch. <hes> a put enough information to file nope but not enough yet so that we can figure it out and they're just in the early stages. I put it down excellent. Excellent excellent claims just enough that we all know about it but we don't know enough <hes> and the you know it takes a long time for something like this to work its way through as well but many companies have filed for t- to figure out how and in what ways they can leverage <hes> distributed ledger technology for their own benefit <hes> in addition to having value you within their supply chain within their their <hes> stores that perhaps it would also have some additional value beyond that <hes> in terms of collectibles and it's very interesting the way it's written so time will tell it sounds there are many distinctions although there are some similarities clarity so i i look at it. It's kind of been diagram of of all the different iterations quite frankly of plotting technology and crypto assets. Actually i think it's a a great way to compare and contrast and through that process get to the educational process of what we're really talking about yeah. It seems to me that if more more of these kinds of systems were proposed and got attention <hes> that people would start to be able to make fairer comparison saliba right now. It's a facebook involved. That's all i need to know but if say walmart did come out and announce something where they were the only member there was no consortium and and and it was tied to a single dollar not to a basket of currencies then you could start to to see a few more of the reasons why libra was set up the way it was absolutely i completely agree three and i feel like we're in this time where when i we're constantly comparing and contrasting the early days of the world wide web to the internet and we talked about the internet versus intra nets and and i i imagine that we will live in a world where you have these i think personally bitcoin's not going going anywhere and change like <hes> but then we'll also have a series of necessarily so you know permission private chains i think of health care and financial services and other industries that are already heavily regulated then this type of technology doesn't exist in a vacuum right. It's just the issue of how it fits. It's in the context of the broader. Regulatory agencies are already acting in space but when you have various companies making things better faster astern cheaper even if it is phil relatively filed <hes> you know and as long as we can as you say continue to compare and contrast they will well actually help us to distinguish. I know that melt them. <hes> d'humieres <hes> at the house <hes> testimony did a great job of distinguishing bitcoin and bitcoin blockchain from facebook and libra and ca- libra etc so the more that happens the better able consumers will be <hes> in determining what is more like bitcoin and what is more like a pure private <hes> distributed ledger system. It's a really good point. I strikes wakes me that one of the differences here is <hes> with all technologies. <hes> the existing laws are always inadequate to the task because it's something new about about it that we've never seen before but in this case because facebook is involved and because it's gotten so much attention from governments it does feel like there's at least a chance and maybe i'm being a little too optimistic but at least that laws could adapt along with the launch of it rather than trying to scramble and figure out how to how to adapt ah long after the consequences are already being felt. I think that's a really really good point and we're kind of at a tipping point as well where it's not a matter of whether this happens it is literally happened where decade into the you know the original <hes> blockchain and the most successful of digital currencies of course there there were a couple that came up before even bitcoin but that's the most success wounded led to the adoption of all sorts of of blockchain for various purposes. This is bob beyond a medium of exchange or a store value right it gets to this concept of transfers value <hes> at a higher level level in more a broader than one could have imagined and that's the same thing that we've done with the internet as well. The original iteration is so far removed from what we're doing with it. Now i run a small nation from my phone and and so we'd never could've conceived of streaming on a small device and all of the things that we're doing now above going beyond the first application of the internet. Perhaps like <hes> email for example. I've been twenty years ago. I was excited to to put a wifi card in my laptop and being able to sit in a different room and use the internet right and here we are just carrying the it's a really good point too that this isn't new bar like you say the bitcoin blockchain has been around for ten years. Is there anything that already exists that is similar to libra that that most people aren't aware of it's a good question so as i think about it you know. Maker dow has a basket the vast said <hes> but you know and it's transitioning away. It's still i would put maker dow clearly on the the crypto community side and not a corporate currency so i don't mean to suggest that at all i just more broadly. Is there something that has a stable coin tied to an asset a basket of assets and also some type the security token etc as well <hes> i don't know as much about <hes> the ripple network but certainly there's consortium there are and when we compare and contrast maybe bitcoin and the theory as it first began and what it appears to be now versus ripple those are all three different but prominent in it <hes> networks and <hes> anything that has a basket of assets and tries to have both a stable coin and some type of security token that rewards those who've who've supported it in the beginning or maybe <hes> are charged with the task of securing the network at a broader level. That's what luthra is <hes> and so. There's a place for it. Certainly in the community in other words like many things libra in its parts isn't new. It's just a new arrangement of things that have been done before. That's correct. That's correct before we wrap up. Tell me a little bit about the blockchain. Cryptocurrency currency in law professional certificate program that you run sounds really fortunate last year as i started <hes> after i fell down the rabbit hole and started talking about this all day every day anybody who would listen. Most people didn't know what i was talking about but they're really excited that i was excited and <hes> you know at at at u._n._h. Franklin pierce we've always been <hes> a leading edge innovator in the space of education and we're primarily focused on intellectual property and innovation and so i want to prepare i wanted to prepare students not just for the job that exists today but certainly the ones that aren't created yet. We could could say that about the blockchain environment in general some of the most highly sought after jobs right now did not exist two three five years ago certainly and so uh in order for this really this being the community crypto assets blockchain distributed ledgers to be successful. There has to be lawyers in place that understand the technology and solutions oriented and really can assist people across industries because this type of technology is disrupting. All types of industries clients want to know about it. I mean lawyers have to be well-versed and as an impediment to but in supporting development so for all those reasons i wanted to tap i've been to my own network and pull in adjuncts who are working in various industries to teach and also guest lectures though this fall will be joined by caitlyn long and sandra rowe and premier david burt from bermuda. He spoke last year as well. We've had flat sam fair and a number of people and and <hes> just really excited about the level of commitment to this this growing group so we take new cohorts every <hes> semester. It's a a two semester certificate program. It's fully eighth sacredness and online so people jump in and jump out <hes> at their leisure and the first semester i teach <hes> i'm joined this fall by <hes> <hes> joshua claiming that tactic lawyer in the space so be joining me <hes> to go through fourteen weeks of blockchain and the law. It's the fundamental of course where it's really a survey and then the second semester is advanced topics and blockchain amol and we cover token comics crypto rags <hes> crypto economics data privacy insecurity we touch on social impact and then have one module devoted would it to healthcare and so it's a really comprehensive <hes> just it's a three thousand dollar range and we made it affordable easy to get through and and and packed with with information so i'm excited to get back to it this fall. That's great. I mean because if you have more lawyers that know oh about the technology that is that is under review for regulation that means eventually. We'll have more judges. Maybe more elected officials that actually understand dan the technology <hes>. That's fantastic absolutely absolutely law dot u._n._h. Dot e._d._u. slash blockchain. If you want to investigate a little more about that certificate <hes> anything else we should let people know about before we let you go well. I just want to make sure that people continue to stay immersed in the space. It's something that has as you know changes every minute of the day and also not to know everything about everything there could have been a question that came up today and said you know what i'm staying in my lane. I'm sure are your next guest will do fabulously wealthy with that. I'm not the one for you. <hes> and i think sometimes people try and do the master of all in the space. It's impossible get to know and really appreciate technology and then figure out what a expertise you already have in your life and how technology will be relevant and i think that's an easier way to to transition through to really take a deeper dive in particular slice and then just stay open to stay open. Yeah yeah and thank you for doing doing the favor to me of sharing your expertise with me because i know you know a lot more about this than i do certainly well. Thank you so much for having me always here and you know i've run out of people so i'm happy to talk to anyone who loves this and the more opportunities that we have in the community to talk about the various use use cases. What's good what's bad <hes> what the hope for the future will be <hes> and where we are now. It's just an exciting time in exciting time. Thank you so much on on ya. Thank you folks. Don't forget <hes> the reason we're able to do these kinds of interviews and continue to do our show is because we have the most amazing bosses in the world our listeners and you can become one of them by becoming a member of hadrian dot com slash g._s. doctor act i mean.

facebook blockchain walmart mickey bucks missoula lebron tom merritt Franklin pierce school Evans switzerland disney united states Franklin pierce leaper berthier associate dean of academic aff
No more business as usual?

Make Me Smart with Kai and Molly

34:18 min | 1 year ago

No more business as usual?

"All right the Music Sam for Senator twiddling their thumbs Yo Shave looking at twelve years old. You're saw it's like a study anyway. Allow everyone I'm Ali Result welcome back to make me smart are grooming episode. No I'm just kidding this podcast where we make you smarter about the economy and culture and one of the questions we like to ask on. This program It from time to time and actually a lot. Now that I think about it in all seriousness is is whether capitalism is working for us as people for the economy and for You know people in it. Also though the environment and companies communities and everybody And and honestly kind of a toss up I have to say. I think we should take credit for the fact that we've been asking this question for as long as we. We have on the podcast almost since the beginning under fifty episodes by the way. Sam I know we gotta think of a milestone email us if you have any ideas for what we can do. One hundred. Fiftieth did anniversary. The Cisco Centennial of this program. Oh come on. I'm my words in my life so we'll do is. I've already figured out where we're going to do for the episode which take a bunch onto Tequila shots and try to say a whole bunch of times. This is going to be amazing Anyway it turns out that this conversation about capitalism has become a thing in presidential campaigns in you know across governments and and pretty much everywhere and so we are now at a moment where we have this this economy that depends so much on in some ways extraction it. There's the the idea of what inequality is doing and their conversations. About how can we fix this. And how can we fix this in a way that businesses will be on board with because. And you've heard this on marketplace for her for reels We did a whole series On on this the idea of shareholder value would sometimes called shareholder. Primacy the idea. Thank you Milton Friedman of the immersive Chicago back like forty years ago. The idea that a company in this economy has greater purpose then to return value to its investors to its shareholders that is the biggest thing companies can do and and forty years fifty years on that is starting to look a little different or put differently in the words of Cairo doll. Capitalism doesn't care if you live or die however it turns out they capitalism may be starting to realize that if we all die there will be no one to buy the stuff so for the first time there are people in the world of corporate governance. Who are questioning listening? This idea I would not say for the first time I would say for the first time since we sort of really shifted our thinking. Your ties shareholder value exactly now. There is some traction on audience. And some new buzzwords floating around such as stakeholder capitalism the idea that instead of making shareholders rich there are lots of stakeholders who you need to benefit from the activities of Your Corporation and this came up actually in place in the World Economic Form Davos last month a lot of people were talking about this idea of responsible responsible investing in companies returning things to Society Writ Large Anyway. That is what we're going to talk about today. And we're GONNA talk about it with Jerry Davis he's the Associate Dean for business. An an impact at the University of Michigan's Ross. School of Business Jerry. Thanks coming on. Hey My pleasure kyw hey molly. Hey how are you. I literally gave a speech at the Ross School of business. And all I got was Lousy Lousy t-shirt send you a coffee mug there. I don't think that was just a that was just a naked plea for swag. Yeah Yeah we got the hook up So so let me just start with your job description associated for business we get impact discuss you. Read my mind. Yeah I as far as I know I'm the only person on this earth that holds a job title like that and the Dean created it because the thought was business. Schools need to be a lot more proactive as we say in business schools in taking on the issues of social impact of business and trying to think through how do we point business in a more positive direction use its forces for good and not for less good so it's about sort of the curriculum the research we do. How do we translate our ideas into public policy and what corporations do how how it feels like your title alone is evidence that this conversation starting to experience an uptick right? How long have you had this title? And do you think it's spreading It is three years I have yet to see another business. School adopt the title Associate Dean for business plus impact but there are a handful of other schools. That are taking this Assam. Wharton also has a dean for impact. So I I think there is definitely a tendency toward that and you're seeing it a lot in the millennial students that they are A lot more forthright about expecting business to do better. Yes so millennials students year but what about Their elders as it were who the people who are running the companies who have to make these fundamental decisions about The focus of their value proposition. Yeah I think one thing to appreciate is is just how unusual the idea that corporations exist to create shareholder value is. It was not like this forever. It certainly wasn't like this in nineteen fifty or nineteen seventy or even nineteen eighty. This is an idea that took a while to take hold. And once you have people being compensated did based on share price particularly CEOS and other executives at tends to become a bit self perpetuating so what is the. What's the push now what? What is stakeholder capitalism? What does it mean what are you know? Is it just a buzzword among many that sort of getting the central ethos I think there's a rising sort of concern learned that capitalism is not serving. Everyone as you said earlier all the people or the environment we're seeing rising inequality and so. I think there's a much bigger press us. By the broad public to take on the excesses of capitalism I would say the popularity of Bernie Sanders Campaign Elizabeth Orange Campaign demonstrates that there's definitely a strong public opinion. That business needs to do better. So notion of stakeholder capitalism is corporations don't exist just for shareholders. They exist in a community that they have obligations to their employees to the people who live in their communities to their suppliers to their customers that basically they need to be good citizens and not purely focused on creating shareholder value as a pretty old idea. It only seems radical relative to. What's come before before that notion of shareholder capitalism? So we're seeing from people like Larry Fink at Black Rock. The big money manager seven trillion dollars assets under mass management. It came out a month or so ago and said hey listen people in whom we invest. You gotta start thinking along the lines of of stakeholder return we're also seeing it from Business Roundtable. They came out a number of months ago. That new definition of what a company is in this economy would a corporation. What's the forcing mechanism? Though right I mean they're talking good game but but show me the money as it were. Yeah I mean if if anyone's GonNa make a difference in this conversation I think it's going to be the giant index funds Blackrock Vanguard St Street between between the three of them they own twenty one percent of the S. and P. Five hundred so for almost any company you can name then guard is its biggest shareholder so when you have that kind of heft if those three say look we wanna see We want to see this cooperation taking on other stakeholders that can really make a difference because they hold the votes that are going to determine you know who's on the board of directors. Well so so. How long are we going to wait to see these changes happening right because vanguard could come out tomorrow with the statements you just Change Your Board of directors tomorrow on did I miss that? Press announcement that they have not quite yet But I think Larry finks letters are really significant. We'd we'd never seen anything like that before. And what's important to know about index funds is. They are universal permanent investors so blackrock when they're running an an index fund. They're invested forever as long as money flows into that index fund. They're gonNA own all of the companies listed in that index. And they're never going to sell so they have have essentially an eternal timeframe for those companies. There they have the longest term interest in all of capitalism and they also own every company index the index regardless of what the industry is in. So they have a much more sort of broad perspective than sort of an actively managed fund that only owns a handful of equities or a hedge fund. They've really got the long term interests of the capitalist system heart and so they can afford to create pressures on companies to take a longer longer term perspective. And I feel like Larry thinks letters of bet getting a bit more Assertive over time. They're not just be nice to your sister they really do have some Some teeth to them Mr. Let's go back to this idea of impact though because You know where I live in Silicon Valley when you talk about impact investing investing your often saying that you're investing will be concessionary and so I guess what I'm getting at conception it means you will you intend to not make as much money. We will concede some in return in favor of impactful investing and so I wonder this is a long winded way of saying what's the business case. Are you gonNa make you know our our. Yeah but but right yeah. Yeah so I would say. The evidence is not consistent with the idea that you have to lose money or or take a hit by investing impact. I mean if anything I would've thought oil companies are the best investment in history. You know if you look at this if if you look at the Dow Jones index the only ones that have been there since the thirties are Exxon and whatever the oil companies are so you'd think they would last forever but they have not. It had great returns over the last couple years so it could be that. We're reaching this kind of turning point If investors say wait climate change is real and it's going to be costly costly Then it's possible to imagine that the more sort of climate focused companies the ones that are More thinking about their impact will actually be a better investment. I haven't seen that just yet but I I would not write that off and I basically would dispute the premise. That yeah you'RE GONNA lose money by being an impact investor that you're gonNA take a big hit right because there's I mean there's upside to be had in just for instance climate change investing right But but let me let me turn this just for a second because we talk when we talk about sustainable investing the default is climate change but also there there are social impact to be had right there. Are you know poverty-alleviation creation. There are social safety. Net things I mean. There are other implications they come with not being rapacious American company. Yeah that's exactly right. There are a lot of things that you can focus on. If you look at something like what does it. Take to be a B- Corporation. There's a whole lot of dimensions. You can focus on to be a better citizen. The expectation is not that every company is going to be superb superb on every dimension A lot of companies want to choose a major They're gonNA say I'm going to focus on education or access to healthcare But we don't expect them necessarily to be saints across all dimensions but we want them to know what the dimensions are So again though. They're clearly early. Some big companies are getting this. Certainly there is consumer pressure. How was it going to take to get us to a tipping point because I have to assume they're just as many companies saying no thank you shareholder values working fine for us? Yeah they're not saying it out loud though right they're not saying it out loud but they may still be. I guess it's a we have a word in our prep woke woke washing which is not something I wish I had said out loud and yet here we are like at what point a window. We know that a company is sincere. Arrogant Ryan its desire. What are the metrics for success here? Yeah no I think that's exactly the right question to ask. I think the answer is that there's a lot more transparency about what companies are up to than there used to be so what's it like to work at Hewlett Packard. Let's say I HAVE NO IDEA I. Can't you know the people they come and recruited my school I'm not sure what they're going to tell me. But now we've got glass door and now we've got anonymous ways for employees to post. Here's what it's like to work this company and so once it becomes that transparent That opens up a whole lot of possibilities. So what does this company supply chain like when activists decide to drill down on. Say Nestle to find out. Where's her cat food? Come from and they discover that there is slavery in the supply chain. They're gonNA make that public so it is very difficult for companies to just put up a wall. Her put up a veil so that no one knows what's going on so I think because there's a lot more transparency about what companies are up to. It's a lot harder to be a successful hypocrite. You can't say I'm out there to change the world. I'm making the world a better place as through X Y and Z. Because it's just too easy for someone to publicize. Yeah but wait a minute. We saw super interesting instance of this after the Parkland shooting and February two thousand eighteen as a website that posted the name of about three dozen companies and said hey these companies companies all have special deals for NRA members to give them discounts. Maybe we should be boycotting them within forty eight hours. Two dozen of those is companies had cut their ties to the NRA including Delta Airlines which actually got up a threatened Loss of a tax cut from the legislature of Georgia. So the idea that a threatened boycott leads to companies changing their policies within forty eight hours. We've never seen that before. What do your brand new shiny minted? MBA's you're going out into the world. Say What are they looking for So they WANNA know. Am I going to be able to have a social impact in this. There's chop not everybody so some people say how much money am I gonNa Make A. How quickly am I gonNA move up You know what's the expense account like but an awful awful lot of our students say well tell me. Are you in a lead certified headquarters Can I do work with meaningful nonprofit organizations If I get a client that I don't WanNa work with Can I skip out on that. Yeah so you're you're seeing a lot. More millennials who really care about what what kind of work they're going to be doing and honestly if you're a company that's trying to hire thousand business students. You need to be attentive to that. In some sense I mean employees employees identify with their companies a lot more than customers. Do the first thing we think of in changing companies is. Let's have a boycott. Well they don't always always work that well. A lot of them backfire The the companies that changed what they did in response to that threatened boycott because of the NRA array ties. That did not work out. Well for everyone I mean it definitely can raise sort of people with other opinions about that but the employees at work for are you. Their opinions are the ones that really count because they have to show up at work every day to get the work done and they're really identified with that company if you go home for Thanksgiving and say hey. I'm working for Insert Evil Doer Company. Name here You know they're they're going to get called on that so my daughter goes to Stanford which which I probably shouldn't say on a podcast because your rug Michigan. What's that about? Oh okay. Tuition probably Michigan but no one thousand thousand dollars. I I know a young person who goes to Stanford and says If your friends are recruiting facebook you might make fun of them the NFL recruiting at you know Insert Evil Doer Company. Name here You're not gonNA have friends and you're not gonNA get a date. So there really is some element element of social pressure around sort of companies. And what they do. And you're just seeing a lot more activism Particularly in the tech sector. He remember that on November two thousand eighteen walkout by twenty thousand Google employees. That is no joke. I mean if if Google can't keep their Their workers on side. That's going to be tough and it's not just them it's Amazon it's Microsoft salesforce You know name the company sure. And you're seeing this level of employee activism that makes companies a lot more attentive to what they're doing and so companies have some built in pressures today that they really really didn't Ten years ago jury Davis sees the Associate Dean for business and impact at the University of Michigan's Ross School of business Yet another step up an understanding of capitalism and how it works in this. Or maybe doesn't Jerry. Thanks a lot really appreciate it. Thanks to you Cayenne Molly go yeah. Is it working is a network and when you I think I don't know I know I don't know I mean listen. You know you know. I'm pro awareness and action oriented food person which I still believe that the ongoing power of the continued conversation. Absolutely totally right. And if you think about the fact that in the hundred and fifty ish episodes that we've done we've talked about it ten times fifteen times right. It probably close to ten percent of the time right and even when we're not talking about it we're talking about it you know. I was thinking about our episode on Begin Ism and how much of a through line there was About how ultimately it comes back to capitalism and we got it tweet and I think this is actually worth acknowledging. Got A tweet basically said I'm getting really tired of how you guys and also people on the far left say capitalism like it is a bad word and I think that's actually a fair thing to acknowledge because I think what we're talking about is sort of like unregulated capitalism unrestricted capitalism. Anything with all of the brakes taken off is a dangerous speeding. Train car look capitalism puts food on my kitchen table. Yes so It's it's it gives people opportunity it builds. Its world hostage. Well it has to have rules. Everything has to have rules or it grows out of control. I mean that's like a law of nature without constraints. Anything thing with unchecked. Growth will kill you and that's where we are now but anyway gentlemen would anyway sin email. Send US voice memo. Take your pick me smart At Marketplace Dot Org And then stuff happens in in my years and then I started talking. It's time for the news. Fake I when I'm in my studio and then the music stops and then I say welcome comeback. Is it like two minutes late forever. I'm sitting here. I'm knitting a sweater. Yeah Nitsa sweater during almost every episode the other is just lousy with them right. Okay so I'm GonNa do I because we're going to do something a little bit today. Yeah I mean come on that own it own owning first of all. I think it's extremely topical right and second of all is let me give a shout out to my friend. Would 'cause she wrote a cool piece. which is really interesting and thought-provoking you go? I appreciate that a lot and I am actually delighted because it was one of those things I loved out into the world and was like. I'm not sure this thing to thing but it might be anyway wrote so. Ah You may not know that. I write a monthly ish column for our friends over at wired. Boy they're so patient with me Anyway this this week on Monday I published a piece about the idea of cloud neutrality. Because what I'm discovering is that a lot of people don't totally understand what we mean when we say cloud cloud like all your stuff is in the cloud and cloud has essentially become shorthand for Internet. That's that's why I put it up there. Because that's macular has become that. Thanks and in fact the cloud version of the Internet is basically what runs the digital economy. So but the cloud is a whole series of computers and incredibly expensive offensive data centers. It's an entire global physical infrastructure like a global interstate system that is built owned and completely controlled by maybe five companies. And the big three are the ones you know Amazon Google and Microsoft and like they're incubating and hosting their competition Amazon started this they would give like free the way the cloud works if you're a business or You know an APP provider. Is that you basically rent storage orig- space and computing power that you can necessarily for you can't buy a whole bunch of servers and you can't afford the like insane temperature control room with bulletproof doors to host. I saw those services and keep all of your stuff running so you rent that an Amazon started it and they was. If you're a startup and you want to develop an APP you can have space for free and now the host and all of Netflix streaming and they have a competing service and like as soon as these guys figure out how to make money some other way. Yeah that's a problem I I just I just think we all. I need to be ready for the day when Amazon and all the rest of them say our Internet now. And that's the point of all these piece so I commend it to you it's wired Online this week a couple of days ago and check it out. It's really interesting Great I'm GonNa keep going because I have another one. That's really topical optical so Ruth Bader Ginsburg was Georgetown the other day and she was asked about the equal rights amendment and God bless her. She's eighty five years old and she of course can say say whatever she wants but sometimes she ought not number one back in the two thousand sixteen campaign when she was talking about Donald Trump and and that entire episode where she said a derogatory things about the candidate and later had to apologize. She said the other day that she thinks Equal the equal rights amendment supporters. OUGHTA start over and remember. We didn't episode on this and how they now have thirty eight states. But there's a whole lot of back and forth about the specifics of how it was passed in recissions of passage and all that jazz. I just think it's really unfortunate that she decided away on this. Because there's a case that's pending that just GonNa wind up in the Supreme Court and she has already talked about it and I just think that's not great as it now. She's going to have to recuse herself. Well look they get to recuse themselves or not. See also Justice Scalia whenever they want But it would would've been better. Had she not interesting so this is a process concerned that you have here. Yes Yeah and look I I. I share that concern right because the Latte the very the last thing you want is the are going into the constitution with an asterisk on it. right Or with one fewer vote or yeah or whatever so you know you know what I mean. Yeah so I just think it's interesting subject to follow up on a thing. We did end so I thought it was worthwhile real interesting take. Yeah that's me King. Interesting takes so true. Oh Ruth Baiter cool look I do to do to. What is this Okay go ahead. No that's fine that's fine. We got all day. I mean I don't have to I just you know how obsessed with frigging Equifax. Well yeah this. What's your what's your It's just the story that never fails to enrage me and although this week we are now distracted by the you know the the members of the Chinese military who have been arrested for doing happening and that's a huge deal and there's a lot of international intrigue and now we're like we can all be Matt China and I loved this piece by Charlie wars out in the New York Times where he argued like nope. Nope we still need to be mad at Equifax and we still need to be mad at Congress. No company should have the absolute right to gather the amount of data about citizens that Equifax does with no way to opt out. There is no way for us to opt out of the credit reporting system. They're essentially the world's largest data broker and they have the security of like a tent in backyard. Did did you see the thing in the filing. Apparently they had some some like universal access system that they were using to get into all this data and their user. Id was adamant and the Password was Adleman. Yeah Dude yes. It's literally like attack like you. Just go you push it over. You grab all the stuff in there. I mean give me a a break. is I even intent with the floor. It's like a yurt protecting the data of like Jillions of Americans that we can catch them all back. Come on back into the podcast guests over spider and you over with your finger in the spider. That's it for the news fix excess but you can get more. News highlights recommendations every Friday and our newsletter Erica Phillips right did sign up marketplace dot org slash newsletters metaphors Galore the newsletter. Let's like you guys talk for awhile. Hi Molly this was Brenton Detroit. This is Rebecca from it was great to hear Cohen on my question about the PR. I wanted to put in my account. I wanted to discuss a slightly different but may be related thing. Amen Brother so last last week we talked about the Internet of things. And of course it wouldn't be this podcast if we didn't talk about all the ways things could go wrong. Did harvesting hacking. Take your pick Wayne Speer wrote with this Comment in the make me smart facebook group. He says while listening to episode one forty eight at the Internet of things reminded me of this guy who hacked or fooled Google maps by walking down the street in Berlin pulling a wagon carrying ninety nine smartphones. All running APPS. Google thought they were all cars Mark Street red which would show up as a traffic jam and at least theoretically directly caused cars to get routed to other streets. Probably can't begin to imagine all the ways in Iot could get hacked. That is true. I love that that is amazing facing and apparently that guy was an artist. Yes and it was like a Bay There was a great. I never looked at look at Lincoln but I was looking at Lincoln yesterday and and there was an apparently people post stuff on Lincoln. Like a little baby who knew why The late were work related stuff. They post articles but there is this like delightful cartoon New Yorker style cartoon and it had a bunch of people in boardrooms saying. Why can't we use artificial intelligence to improve our sales funnel and then an echo next to them on the table table? Says I can help you find articles about artificial intelligence and this is exactly that it can still be fooled let alone hacked. Which is the harder creepy conversation Here's a fight. We can't stop picking the week before last year. He did the episode about veganism that I referenced him in at and around this new so subculture of what we are now calling swollen Vegan service. which if that is not a facebook group or breaded by now it ought to be and what we mean weightlifters and bodybuilders? Who are giving up meat? And I mentioned the game changers documentary. God helped me. And then we got a bunch of trainers and people saying it's not real and now we have a comment comment from US Wolf Vegan athlete and weightlifter. Alex Kajo Ski. And here's when he sent in high Cayenne Molly. This is Alex from Austin Texas. I'm a long long distance backpacker and mountaineer that lift weights and goes long distance. Running in the off season. I started my plant based Diet a transition by cutting out dairy because it was making me really sick this included the way protein powder. That's the most common among weightlifters as switched switched to a plant based protein powder and in doing so was introduced to the subculture of Vegan Vegetarian. Weightlifting I definitely really felt a lot healthier stronger and faster. Once I had cut out dairy I cut out the land-based meats and then finally after watching game game changers cut out fish. I've been Vegan for about a year and have never felt better live fellow athlete. Friends definitely away like to poke fun at my eating habits. I've been called a soy before but the most common response that I get is Disbelief they really can't believe that I could get as big as I am while only eating plants thank you so much for your interest in this topic back and have a great day. I'm picture man. I mean we know look honestly. I think it's kind of amazing this works. I follow a photographer on instagram. Grandma's name is Chris Burkhardt He's like an outdoor athlete of land landscape photographer but also like a marathon bicyclist and and extreme skier and all kinds of stuff. Not swale but Does these long distance endurance sports. He's a Vegan and I think it's really interesting so you know the body that's right the body does what it does. It doesn't look everybody's body is different. That may be part of it like we know that this is a controversial conversation. We also know that people have different things that worked for them and it's very possible that what works for somebody's body doesn't work for somebody else's body and there's some signs into that and we're not necessarily trying to come down either way but I really appreciate that we are getting to offer all of these these different viewpoints and also I. I also would like to see this wall picture for sure. I'm very Miami Buddy right come on man. How much do you bench? You are anyway Here's another here's Bill Denney With his take on this whole thing. Hi this is bill. Denney from elkton Maryland. Thanks for your report. Report on the harm to our food system and our climate caused by modern agricultural practices. I agree that the focus should be on restoring or regenerating our soil however encouraging people to give meat is the wrong approach the best way to restore soil health and sequester carbon in the soil is through intensive rotational table grazing of animals on pasture raising animals. For short bursts builds the diversity of grassland plants spreads nutrients and builds the soil's the water carrying capacity. Farmers can tie grazing into cover. Cropping of production fields undiversified farms to make their fields more productive grass fed beef his healthy. It supports carbon sequestration and is a critical component of feeding the soil. Thanks for making smarter. Well thank you bill I. I hadn't really thought that one through I also not really considered the whole carbon sequestration part of this actually which when you get through it is is a tad fundamental but interesting thought. Yeah I mean I think this gets to a almost a weird version of exactly what we talked about with Jerry which is like there are so many downstream impacts of every action and we. We have to start thinking about everything in a more holistic way and some of that does include not making rules for everyone and you know for considering the impact of those rules totally. I think we're about done with this. We'll begin topic just F- I my two cents there But thank you you for all of your smart thoughts because I agree with all of you. We will end as always on the make smart question this time. It comes from Susan in Wisconsin. Hi Molly Hi Chi hi. This is sue in Madison Wisconsin. With a really silly things I thought I knew I have been so enjoying listening to you. Credit your sound engineer in ear for years and I was hearing bent holiday as opposed for example to a straight holiday queer. I thought that was the awesome a handle and then recently you were singing his praises at the end of your broadcast and I realized it's Ben Tolliday holiday. There you go something I thought I knew. I love your show every week. You Guys I love our show every week. Do I love you too Ben. I should tell you is on leave for a couple of months. He's working on a music project that he's got going. We will absolutely send this to him and he will get a kick out of it. Felix somewhere. Bent is a thing in the Australian vernacular to which is Bent holiday also great t shirt. I mean like the tally of t-shirts is really just swag. Maybe we should switch from knitting to embroidering. You can just embroider t shirts during every episode. We're good That is all for the podcast for obvious reasons. We're going to just stop talking now. But don't forget you get daily explainers on your smart speaker covering all manner of topics From prohibition to electric eels Well did you do the electric bills did I. I assume I'm about to talk about the cold. Read Tell Your Echo device vice to make me smart and and listen. It's actually pretty magical you guys. I don't know if you've use the skill but it's pretty fun. It was going to call. We're just waiting uh-huh made Mars. Produce Interaction by Salamanders our digital producer Tony Wagner or senior producer. Jody Becker thanks for video producer. Ben Coat and are intern. Ethan parents who I got to meet in person today and thanks to our writer producer. Erica Phillips this week's program was engineered by drew just at our theme music was composed by bent a holiday and Daniel Ramirez the tech director on demand is the senior vice. President and general manager is Deborah Clark and we are adding fant Hala Breath holiday get bent. Does that. That's not as nice though. I can't believe you would say that. You chant riding over them. Of course I'm on the line. Good who doesn't who doesn't love a good I reference come on man cheesy Mente. That's exactly exactly opening an opening curse rozelle in Los Angeles.

Google Jerry Davis Amazon Associate Dean NRA Ross School of business University of Michigan producer Equifax Molly Erica Phillips Blackrock Microsoft Milton Friedman School of Business facebook Chicago
Weekly: What did Jack Ma and Elon Musk say about AI?

World News Analysis

53:25 min | 1 year ago

Weekly: What did Jack Ma and Elon Musk say about AI?

"Today provide you with in depth news and expert analysis telling the whole story bigger picture the news you want to know today. Welcome to weekly the weekend edition of today a moyal today we'll be talking about jack ma and elam musk debate about a._i._n._s. impact though in and tick tock users spending record eleven million u._s. dollars in july japan plans to raise pension-age beyond seventy so's over sixty five the scope of senior people remind our listeners to hear this again or to to catch on previous episodes you can download our podcast best searching for world today. You can also download the app easy f._m. Or china plus in the app store today today joining me in the studio are they've moser associate dean of the yen ching academy at peking university and our commentator mandolin. Welcome thank you thank you now. Listen to our first topic during this week. One of the spotlight's must be the debate between jack ma and elon musk at twenty nine hundred world artificial intelligence conference in shanghai the alibaba founder and chairman and tesla and space acts c._e._o. Have talked about an implication to humanity throughout all dialogue ma and musk touched on several topics such as employment education reform moving to mars and how humans way of life life can be improved in the future now. Let's turn to our studio guests so first of all after watching it. What impresses you the most about about their debate. I think i love jack ma more now and he's down to earth. He focused on small things and he's trying to help grassroots people the poll check to build an ecosystem for a good healthy sort of commercial system for all of us and assisting medium small and medium in enterprises and then try to butte even an online finance sort of system which benefits every one of us were in it <hes> by the way having. I said that i love him more. It's just a joke. I think he's more than earth and he and ella mapo the very two very different people and like <hes> he's hit. What impressed me most is that he's mayan is emphasizing l. cute. It's a very <hes> pre father or father of potion shen or whatever you say i._q. I._q. later developed into emotional quotient. That's called the e. q. We we emphasize how people deal with each other. We should be learning learning skills to make communication efficient and then now. Maybe it's western whether you are you familiar david. It was l q what if out yourself the first time he he concocted he made up this word he said now in the future in a in a i won't we need meet to talk about l. Cue that means the ability to love and the <hes> to be loved. I think finally when we were reduced to to nothing but spirit to being very generic generic. This is something impress me like another point. He impressed me. Is that whatever you okay. Come up in the future the a._i. Products very smart to super intelligent but they are still tools does <hes> then this made me think at the very beginning when human beings are started to be different from other animals is that we are able to create a stone age age cut a polished stones to the shape of a ni- and we start to cut things right that is much that knife thing is already the very powerful we can use it to destroy ourselves. Weapons are the things that we invented the powerful than our own abilities physical abilities we used them to. It's the same thing so. I don't think he has an example. He said for example. We invented even washing machines right. Can you compete as a housewife. Say let me compete who who washes cleaner and faster than a washing machine so it's just between between a i r robots and human beings is just the income parable incomparable than it will impress the most there are two very different people one on sort of discussing a i as a business tool as a tool for facilitating the normal functions of business elon musk is more of a dreamer. He's he's thinking of these things. S. tools to revolutionize humankind even go so far as to free us from from the normal things that humans have to do which is work and maybe we could. Maybe maybe even to bring us to another planet and build a whole new way of human life where the with smart robots are in charge or at least you know playing a primary rule. That's that's that's split science fiction. Of course we can call it science fiction but <hes> the line is very thin nowadays much of what we thought was science fiction now his comments commonplace with computer so i think it's a two very different visions of jack. Ma sees them only as kind of useful tools that we would be able to use to control things and do certain task. They're boring or too repetitive for humans to do he long must imagine that this world of computers and robots as a sort of almost our peers these people who could take our place and do things and maybe even do it better go beyond us take us places where he couldn't go and tell us truths about the world that we would woah that humans would have no way of finding themselves so he sees a much more prominent role in any sees human beings as as having in the future to be able to live with robots and to live with artificial intelligence and are to be companions and cooperators whereas jack ma more practical looking at the short future sees a._i. And in a machines as just merely tools and aids for what human intelligence can do and that's a that's a very big difference. I think probably both are going to be true for a long time but the scarier one is the longest version. There are actually actually some very interesting points. Let's go through them one by one first of all in the conversation that ma said why do we need that many jobs anyway. He added that humans happen fearing that tag will take jobs away over one hundred years jobs have increased and he believed that way is help. Humans can reach a point where we're average work. Week is only three days per week an average workdays only four hours. A day in your opinion is feasible and what is her assessment of that again. You you know it's about mar as the problem. Solver is just a tool war is going to help us to make us our lives better so we can take advantage vantage of them and use them to its fullest and elon. Musk is like no no no. No you know we we are short of something. I have to say that one is optimistic. Nick optimists to the other dick down. Maybe psychologically into ilma not i haven't had chances must be a pessimistic because in china pessimist somists because in chinese there's one thing <hes> a phrase have you ever heard of and the way the way that means when you're live comfortably you started to worry about about the future which ones fit into definitely elmar elon musk but this means usually people who focus on the present isn't are those who usually opted optimists says no problem. Do you think it is something that human beings should be worrying about that. Robots thoughts are taking our jobs away. <hes> i don't think so that's that's of course the the the fear that people have and i think that's part of the phenomenon that we have now with people like donald donald trump to add and tariffs on goods because they see that <hes> you know jobs are quote. Unquote jobs are being taken away <hes> the truth of the matter. It's not just the those coal miners and the sort of apple manufacturing jobs that are you taking taking away because of because of china or whatever compete competition his it's it's automation all of those jobs it involves assembling that involved digging that involve manual labor all those things are going away because of automation not just smart computers but just automation now. I think that's a good thing actually. I think that that it opens up new possibilities for new job. Markets you take a look at china right now. That's that has been in the last twenty years or so moving away from an economy based on on industrial production in infrastructure komo large scale building projects now moving away to what they call the service sector domestic economy based on service sector and products sold <hes> on online and on such. Nobody thinks that that's a bad thing in fact china's doing that on purpose because they think that that's the new wave. You can't be dependent upon this manufacturing. It's very dirty. Polluting the takes a lot of hard work and you want to move into areas where the poor people's minds are able to create values and create create value and markets so it's so it's a natural. It's a natural thing <hes> as as the technology can take over jobs that previously were responsible for for humans to do that. The result is it's not the jobs go away is that there are new jobs that that that humans can do even better that are are not so dangerous and orla also more fulfilling a human being to it's a different concept of <hes> living in i think under escape a city set of society. We we with our lifetime. Most of our lifetime is going to be spent on trading. We work hard to in order to get necessities food everything so this is a kind of a trade transactions if <hes> robots we we we go into an area that we can produce a lot of things things you don't need to. You know you can to rethink consider how to spend your lifetime like jack ma. It's okay to work for only three days and then every day for hours so i kind of agree. It's a different totally different way of thinking under what sort of economy if it's an abundance economy yes. It's the rest of the time. How are we going to deal with it and spent on jazz. Music spend on reading holiday takings. Is this something that we have been long wound full while toiling in office said oh i'm dreaming about going to the beach of san francisco and but now the fear comes from if i play hey you know i do away over time for the leisure then. I'm looking to get enough to eat and i'm not going to get shoulder but not that problem. No longer exists because we have abandoned thing we produce more than we can consume now <hes> so there's a saying that we are having a best time and the worst time the best time is that we can buy whatever we wanted in the worst part is about it is so overwhelming and then there's the point in the conversation that jack mom touched on current educational system which is still largely designed for the industrial period and mar argues that today there is needed to foster more creative education education and then mosk noted that the solution such as neural link because he has been promoting a chip in bring and it will be a difference maker in the sense but some are also argued that what does allow people to upload -scuse and learning but this is more like cheating in the exam because you're are using a computer in your brain was her take on then. I think this is the only points that i have doubt about kind of disagreement with him because he said from from now on you can forget about all memorable so you know try to remembering all the everything weeping in the past studying from now <hes> a and looking back in the past human beings of being spending ten twenty years learning things that accumulated by our forefathers knowledge knowledge everything right reciting not only residing but you have to learn about mass every few right but now seems to me that it <hes> a chip will replace everything will implant or this knowledge into your mind. I have a big question because biased. The process of learning is that you are re your practice empirical because we are now going to be we still need creativity right and we we will emphasize emphasized much more on creativity not those <hes> database the info certified by recycling lyrics appoint so whatever but things that creativity how do people get creativity they get creativity by redoing a reviewing all the past experiences that our forefathers for example. If you just okay a baby born with empty sort of education right all of a sudden at the age of eighteen you insert a hundred town point tom dynasty town puncture and then you expected this little thing can create right in the better poins literature but i don't think so but is it contradictory to the process of learning and being creative take even though whether chip in the brain you can still be created by doing something more note chipping. The brain is a robotics of intelligence. It's not something new. It's based tom all the data and you come was stuff so it's even though it's a new story was written right. It's written by a r. It's not written by by human beings. I don't think so because a. r. e. r. can learn whatever we have already achieved and make better things i i have no doubt about that but then we there will be a a kind of a competition between we human beings with flesh flesh and bone should always been leading leading leading the metallic or whatever metallic beings i call them but then how so if you just depend too much on inserting chips in into your brain and you lack empirical practices i mean you're not going to be creative in the future. What about. I'm not so worried about it. I i understand mullings consternation but i'm not quite so worried about it. <hes> this is not a process. This is not a new process. We have been part machine part-human for a very long time. The three are all wearing glasses that enabled us to see and that's right well. Is it tale. It's a tool it's made out of. It's an adjunct a my father were hearing aids. That was a tool. That's that's that's electronic thing that actually made his hearing better <hes> <hes> if you look at it this this way things like the internet <hes> are kind of they're not installed in our bodies but they're things that we touch us every every day that augment our brains that usually we would have to just remember <hes> you know what a postal number was or or you know what the value of pi was now we can do it on a on a smartphone and get the instant information instantly so the internet has become a part of us. It's not installed on our bodies but it's it's been puts an adjunct to our brains like something added onto our brain that can be accessed at any time the insertion of chip presumably at the stage. They're talking talking about would be a little more like just taking the next step and having the information be accessible within the body itself although coming wirelessly listen from from outside the body probably or would be a chip with some information which would basically give you the information directly you might have to go to a computer otherwise to get there will be a lot of frightening thoughts about this or could it suddenly to overtake you. I mean all kinds of things could happen. But of course all of these are the the same with any tool well there are similar concerns in even the cellphone is considered to be another oregon over body then about the intelligence ship jack ma ah argued that compared to human beings computers are just a toy and it is impossible that human could be controlled by machines while yulong musk ask on the other hand. He is well known for his social media platforms argument. He's strongly against the fast developing of a._i. He says he very much disagrees. Arguing that human are capable of creating things that are superior to human and the most important mistake smart people make is that i i think they're smart. Computers are already smarter than us. Which side do you think you're going to take. I think i i wanted to believe leave my that we are still in control <hes> because there's one thing if we are reduced to all the abilities in washing machines already wash faster much faster than me me but i want to say that i can switch off the electricity eventually if you into destroy me if it's a war aw that we you know it's life and death. I think humans is going to win you. We just to switch off the electricity actress. Ity come on and then all the robots will die extreme iming but one day but you can also imagine that now a mobile phone is already a an extended organ right we we ourselves were so weak without electricity we have we are not able to live that. What is something very very stressful because we ourselves are eighty succumb succumb to to to to outer outer how to address things not not inside sort of power so yeah i see problems. That might come along with it but i see it as historical. Oh perspective these are objections that had been raised even as far as the greeks when people started reading instead of reciting by memory and they said oh it's going to happen to us will all lose our memories and we'll all be dependent it on books well in fact that misgiving was true very few people actually memorize books now because they'd have books and the same thing is true with you know once you get addicted to computers and addicted to the internet we'd now become lazy and we we have information we get. We don't need to memory is so much things one from the way i've seen it ever since this tendency has begun begun that humans have always been able to take the tools to assimilate them to get used to them and make it part of of the daily function and have been able to transcend what they it could do before because they had these very powerful tools just like a hammer you can do a lot more with the hammer than before you had a hammer right so that same with computers the same with all these tools that were talking about it doesn't make us less human and it also doesn't threaten us as human beings what it does is allows us to as human beings to transcend transcend our limits that we had before and to create an imagine and construct things that would have been impossible years ago and which if we do it right could actually add add meaning to human life and add joy happiness and all the good things that we need through the use of computers rather than distortion might nightmare that this is gonna take over and destroy his that's much less likely the real challenge like you said if we do it right the real challenges for the human society human beings like us to make a rules and to how do you regulate these things. How do you control. How'd you manage if you it's like a nuclear button in front of us you we know who's going to control this and what regulations if people all robots violate these regulations what can we do i. I think that's the real challenge. If we can regulate everything we create then that's fine but then there are rogue people rogue states someone who want to change the rules or whatever then how i think in the future the whole set of road is facing an air award right. There should be just the one country on this planet earth orbit laws should be you know how to say <hes> international laws in calling thing for that it you know in the in the future there will be no such thing as a pure human being. I mean i would have to say right now the three of us i don't know about you but i'm thinking my family. They have artificial legs or artificial knees artificial hearts and artificial lungs or pacemakers. They have things in their brain that helped them prevent epilepsy. They have hearing aids. You know at this point. People are like they're not one hundred percents human already ninety percent the ninety five percents human the war veterans who lose a leg leg. You can give them a new electronic. Lee activated leg that can simulate the screen better than really been leg so in the future. I think all of us are going to be looking around and saying this. There's there's none of us are one hundred percent human beings. We're all part machine part human and yet we still manage to think in iraq and have love and passion and everything everything even though we've become partly machine and i think that's going to be one of the challenges going forth is feeling window. We stopped caring to israel point in which we can stop caring thing about the difference. Even when someone is mostly machine they still pay le day they learned to that's the end of the dock is now how we have to love and care for these machines that we made because they have the same sort of passions and feelings that we do so i can you my world did they are just a different species. It's like we have accepted that. We are human beings and monkeys monkeys in the forest. It's the same thing we can never team. You mentioned you can make love with a mission prejudice prejudice years from now you listen to this and you'll say oh how prejudice racist i won't be existing this episode episode. I apologize in the domestic. They're all listening to that point unit. There's another other robot named sophia as being granted citizenship in saudi arabia's yes so way for the future and for the future outlook musk usc believes that one of the world's threats lie in its declining birth rate and miami greets and there's a later in the show we'll be talking about japanese and south of korean aging society if the birth rate is that low where the rising of robots that be a scenario of the co existence distance for quite on time coexistence and for quite a long time i three stages i think the first one is the heat feel flesh human being dominating dominating stage and then a mix like haiyan you you predicted already. I have already apologized. It's kind of mixed hybrid and in the future i think the robots to replace us and then human species in the years and years and years and millions and billions of years and as a species it's going to vanish that's what i believe because and the new species who created because the world universities like <hes> the things things were die. There's no immortality in the universe. It's a cycle of life. You know some p p one life like us one hundred years years <hes> life expectancy is the longest maybe and then you go in you as a species is the same. A lot has been written about this in science. It's fiction these scenarios and and i'm not sure how i feel about it. I mean some people would say you know what what if we could guarantee or preserve your conscience in your consciousness the fall of your feelings and your thoughts in something that wasn't a human body in other words body may to some artificial thing or steel disk yeah so it's it. Is you as your personality. It is your thinking but we've got you. It's not in a human body. It's an in digital form. Would people want to live. I like that well. That sounds like the movie lucy precisely yeah. There's been little lucy and lots of other as human bus. She exist in the artificial world all right. I'm not interested in existing forever. No i'm not either. I don't think i'm worth existing forever. I write big thinkers nice or even then it's nice to have it's nice to i mean <hes> the best piece of music has to have an ending <hes> snow such thing as a great piece of music that goes on and on forever beauty lies in the ending. There's something never ends is not beautiful that slow yes but i hope that will be enjoying my martini on the bijon thinking about the memory of you guys jason whether it is like jack ma ever said the lob intelligence is the key weather. Love is the answer to this or not. Not only the facts in the future can tell us maybe less hope for the best and prepare for the worst coming up. We'll be looking at in hit. Record of eleven million dollars lers in july to talk billions. Expanding is on the clock. We'll be right back. Hello this is michael. Gong greetings from los angeles the golden state of california. Thank you today for making me part of your team. I- chewy enjoy the debates we had add look forward to many more in the years to come <music>. You're listening to weekly the weekend edition of today. I'm royal remind our listeners to hear this absurd again or to catch up on previous efforts. You can download our podcast best searching for world today. You can also download the app easy f._m. Or ten a-plus in app store today joining me in the studio art divet motza associate dean of yen ching cami at peking university and our commentator man-ling now. Let's turn to our second topic. China's short video abdollahi in in an overseas version tick tock had another record-setting month in july with an in-app purchases raving about eleven million u._s. dollars. It is an increase increase of two hundred and ninety percent compared with the same time last year. Reports show that users in china accounted for seventy percent of total purchases spending about eight million dollars. It has an over seven hundred percent year on year. Increase tick tock users in the u._s. Accounted for twenty percent of in-app purchases purchases. We're spending about two point three million dollars in july revenue in the u._s. Grew by over forty percent compared with last year. Okay so first of all willing to you. Could you briefly introduce doughy tech talk to overseas listeners who haven't used it before it started with a short video. Serve recording app can do and it's easy to learn do you don't have to go to school and and then it evolves into gaming. You know a lot of things so it kind of very basic like one one <hes> for you to play video audio video now we are in the in in e._r. We're entering the era area so the video is becoming very popular. <hes> the less educated people. I have to say that they're more obsessed with easy access to such things why because it takes nothing. You don't have to go to school to learn you know. You don't have to get trained so it's it's for everyone. Say you mean there's no barrier for the engine. Yeah yeah no no barrier for entrance <hes> very short time saving so time affordability everybody can afford playing because it doesn't hasn't really take away your other time number. One is the to rich content of varieties. You you can get everything if you hungry for love. There are beauties on you know beautiful ladies and doing things live streaming you know teaching you everything and then <hes> jokes games teams and many using it to get rich and then there are some people who smarter people. They're using it as a part time jobs to make money and then you can do there. Well you know your mainstream set of job so all these combined. It's just a crazy. I've i've seen there. I've seen their videos mostly not on their actual platforms but you also see them on youtube which i do. I do get on and sometimes in fact. Sometimes i've ever when i hear ear from a friend that there's this interesting video. You should check it out and usually just see his on youtube and usually is so. Why do you think you can achieve such astonishing record purchase <hes> well first of all all of them start out that way. If you think about it youtube the reason was called youtube. It was really a platform for people or people just put up their own movies and their old home movies and stuff like that and once it got going at branched out. It's much much more than people putting up there on their own materials. Their archives interested groups that well moves. They're they're. They're they're having like online debates <hes> they can archive entire t._v. Shows from years than even whole movies of the use that expression right. It's just for every it's just a catchall for everything now. Take top. What's interesting about that is is from what i've seen is. These these are in an era when when short short videos even ones that are technologically advanced are really cheap and easy and fast to make so for the first time or or it's been and happening for a long time but for the first time one person in their basement can with over with to some reasonable <hes> audio visual equipment can make very sophisticated did very interesting of short videos <hes> which <hes> can go viral or the whole idea is to try to make them go viral and so very very often. They'll have a you know they'll have a page. They'll have a platform and they're competing with all of these others they they know it has to be short because attention span is terribly shorted internet. It has to have a style which makes you wanna see other examples in the same style links and so the idea is that you want to get likes you when you get more viewers to to do it so they're short. They're funny sometimes shocking whatever it is and then they can become they can then monetize it make money off of it and if they're lucky than they get millions and tens of millions is and then they can really make money off of it. There's a whole lot of really creative people finding this thinking and thinking. This could be a career if i do it right very very very few <hes>. Some of them are really quality stuff although they are short but then i hope that these is more short of products can be extended into to deep profound and subtle artistic works. Don't you think that is entrepreneur. I don't think those platforms are meant for deep right. I know the thing is that if it's short it's abrupt. It's quick. It's instant gratification. If people are obsessed mr with instant gratification there came to give up the other side. I mean none instant long. Social media in my mind is search social. Media is for everyone to satisfy different needs. It's not just the mass the grassroots the grass who's happened to be the majority. It's always the educated the minority since ancient time people since very engine time i think there's only one or two learned handed person standing beside the king of the queen and now because of the mass education when people have knowledge now but still compared to to the grassroots they they had the so-called alito though i refuse to use the word this it's a cliche now but people who are educated. They definitely are are not <hes> looking for instant gratification. I will look forward but not on daily basis well to bigger pictures so in the euro two thousand eighteen the total volume of digital economy in china and the related industries reached about five hundred billion are m._b. Which is about seventy a billion dollars so it has become the new driving force of economic growth even in china. So how do you assess the developments of china's digital economy army in recent years. Digital economy is going to go even more to toe in the future. I think okay if if everybody like a per capita like like a china has one point four one point three billion population of the latest one thousand four hundred eighty if we spent just the one quiet on something like though into to buy because knowing is and the inap- purchase right something. You're interested you pay for it. That's very popular very trendy. If can cover the bigger bays like i said the majority people the economy would be good but okay the economy economy would be good and house healthy enough. Is it going to be sustainable is going to represent human progress. We still need thinkers. You know other stuff. Scholars colors like david wright your articles and share with us. It was her take on that platform is is content neutral in other words. Whatever you can do a platform you can you can put beethoven on it or you can put allow show dominators at sustain it so the thing is most of these things or many of these things. Recently you get started up because there's a phenomenon of of something like these these fast b._d._o.'s cute things there are several minutes can grab a lot of people become viral when it becomes <music> a mature media then there's a possibility to branch out in present more for different audiences something like i don't know if you know about the the app or the pro the program that's called spotify defy spotify not an american. Yes free frames in the us but it's not an u._s. Platform spotify started out as just a it platform that could pri the play a new new releases by artists and most of it was pop rockin and and some of the things they've become so extensive now in the end they're actual database so huge that they have everything from the most trivial and the most silly stuff that goes viral to the most deep profound works of bach that you can get all align basically weekly for free or for for very cheap is a platform that it you can't characterize it. It's all virtually all music that is produced by human beings so the same thing with these these platforms platforms are only <hes> as useful as they are the people that use them if they only attract a certain demographic like young teenagers. Let's say you may need a lot of <hes> a a lot of hits a lot of likes and you make a lot of money but a lot of but the but your business model might be flawed in the sense that when that goes away the fad dannatt vanishes the the kids grow up than the your business dies because no one's interested in that so it has to have sustainability and it has to have ability to broaden its base and broaden its its readership words listenership ship so that other kinds of the music and other kinds of products can be put in there and that way it has a broad serve sustainability. What's going to happen to take talk. I don't know but right now. It's at it's at that first stage which will just producing a lot of silly kind of funny mindless stuff though is expanding is on the clock. Come up japanese. People may probably need to wait till they are over seventy years old to receive their pensions. What happened stay tuned to find out more welcome back. You're listening to weekly the weekend edition of today. I'm royal today. Joining me in the studio are david motza associate dean of yen ching academy emme at peking university and are coming hitter malinche now. Let's turn to our third topic. The japanese government is planning to raise the option. No age for joining in public pensions to seventy five it aims at coping with labor shortages in an aging population the government announced it will finalize the plans john's as part of a set of legal changes after april twenty twenty okay first of all what is current pension-age in japan and what are the changes after the plan is finalized the current one. Is this the benchmark for sixty and sixty five seventy by now. Maybe after the change h is should be seventy one and odor. I think it's not really a piece of so shocking use. We live long and we consume more. We we have fewer babies so we have to work. You know this is everything. China is catching up. China is catching up it happened. I think the aging population started added in japan and in a european countries in the united states in britain or the u._k. But when when china started to reform and the economy was was started doing good or well then the thing just come up the industrial sort of industrialized economy means is that people are busy not is if it's an agricultural. It's the diverse era then people stay home had have a lot of babies is and then parents who would rely on babies to support them out age care but once it's industrialized and faster paced we have <hes> all all sorts of far recreations. We have dreams to fulfil right. We even gold rush. You know opportunities everything we go to coastal areas to to to to sit in the beach. That's more sort of pleasant thing to do then raise a baby at home but now we are in the digital sort of <hes> your <hes> internet area now and it's even more so <hes> even many young people are hesitating whether they're going to have a vape so have children or not well dave. What do you think this policy means into the japanese people and what kind of difference does it make. I think differences that it's probably putting something in the legal framework which has already been a tendency in the past and that's that's what usually laws usually follow the trans rather than creating them they address problems rather within caused them or the problem japan which which china's now having an and certainly france and some other places is the the lack of a population growth the u._s. U._s. seems to be doing pretty. Well with basically immigration is right but also our population is at replacement level which means people are having just enough kids to keep keep it at about the same level as far as i know. The direction is the oh the aging population direction. It's the reverse not no not no not suspended because with replacement population the good thing about that is it keeps that balance. That's let replacement population is which is that you're you know you have the saint you're building building a supply of younger people that can go into the market at a reliable rate and the dying off of course there's problems because people are living longer that'd be if trump says no no more immigration and harder set of policies on on visas on immigration on sorts of things. I think that direction should be reversed now. Is it's like you said but the the immigration issue is a slightly different different one and the basic thing should their basic copulation so now now you made me forget where it i was about to say but but japan has the same sort of problem that china is facing and his slightly ahead of china because they've already come to grips with some of the issues so one of the issues is is making the retirement age later one of the things that they can do this chat. The japanese workforce has more special relationship to its employers. The the typical japanese employer employee relationship is one of a <hes> sort of a long time long term committed relationship on both sides a japanese when they graduate japanese young people when they graduate from college usually have a very short time or very <hes> desperate time to to very quickly get attached into a good company and what that means is that they will usually be taken on as employees they will be trained for the job. They don't expect employees to come with with skills already. So japanese won't <hes> i work at a skill in order to get some some expertise and then go look for job. They will get the job and then get the expertise. It is expertise. They need on the job which means that they have. The company is pay for as gripe paper. The growth education this company loyalty will continue throughout as the company treats them well gives them regular raises gives them lots of overtime encourages them to spend time at the office by making their the atmosphere there air pre conducive to serve living there and eating and socializing there so there's a very tight relationship between the japanese employer and employees who see it as a family right so that means that the same thing with retirement. They are not going to be this tendency that in the u._s. You see you know were they get close to retirement age and they're just brutally kicked kicked out of the retirement or out of the market before they write quite ready to retire. My father had to retire like five years earlier than he wanted to because the company that he was working for felt that they needed to save money and so they gave him an irc quote early retirement she was a different package than what he was hoping for the japanese are less likely to do that and so all of these sorts of things are going to have to happen in china as well what's happening in china. I think is happening. Japanese twos wither without the presence of companies. These retirees are are are learning that there are things they can do still remain productive in their later years. They can take on different. They can take part time jobs. They can certainly take take will a load off of the parents on the family by by doing the child care that the parents would normally do and that's happening both in japan and china and so the point is is that the that these people are living longer. No longer is seventy a sort of an age where you're absolutely can't do anything and you have to be bedridden or taking care of seventy seventy five even eighties. These can be people in that old who are actually walking around taking care of things. Take shopping even doing a job on the computer and stuff so it's changing the way the workforces make the work period longer and more sustainable and all also it's it's taking the place of all the young people that are not being replaced the way they normally would be in places like china and japan. I think we should learn from the u._s. Your country. I had a brief investigation when i was there research for example. I met a eighty something <hes> shop assistant in macy's i was like oh it's the jurors jury reese sector which is not so heavy duty because you just show present and i went to buy a piece of jaw and then i said how come you stooping work yeah. We you know in the private sector. It's not the government. Government has has has a retirement age but it's a rio capitalist market set of market market this no age limit as long as you can perform well as long as you're able to you know you can fulfill the job description as long as is. You still have something that you can contribute to the society. The doors should be open. The one trend that is is having a huge effect. It's a new idea and and some some sectors are trying it out because it does work for some things some manufacturers found that <hes> it instead of hiring lots and lots of women for these sweatshops sweatshops to spend twenty hours a day fifty hours a day switz- up making tennis shoes and then <hes> going home that it was very bad for the workers and it wasn't very good for the employer either so what they did was they they would they would have the women do it at home and give them the materials they they could see how many that they first test him to make sure they can do it at home. Make the shoe up to quality and then give them materials and products and then they would say all right this week. We give you a quota of ten shoes now now. You just have to tune those in at the end of the week. If your child gets sick on tuesday to take care of your child it's okay you know but you have the time to do it and you may stay up late but at the end the week we give ten shoes and we evaluate them and they're all pass quality control then we send you the money and we went and you never have to come to a factory and you do it by we chat or something like that and if it's this week you don't wanna do ten you sam sorry this week. My husband is six again. I say okay it's up to you. Don't earn that money right. So that's the kind kind of things there. There are all sorts of telephone marketing. They're all sorts of online things that involves just just checking a couple of things and then like putting someone in a list or taking taking the matter list older people could do in their homes without going to into a job that they could do regardless of their health could be on a wheelchair or they can but they could still be active and we something to do that. All you have to do is set it up with a very simple sort of chain of key of information there so that you could simply determined that the work can be done effectively. Give them the freedom that they'll need to get it done because they're older. They can't come into a workout to go and also make it something that gives them a rewarding putting life that it's something that can do the ultimate some money happier right more practical way for people to work remotely so that they can share more flexibility in the work and then a number of other countries are also facing the challenges of having an aging society now. Let's go to south korea to see what the elderly are doing. Their dungs ing with loud music now now. Let's take a short break and drop the beat <music> welcome back. You're listening to weekly the weekend edition of today. I'm wheel now. Let's turn to our final topic in the afternoon. A back alley. Allie of soul is packed with hundreds of super hair. The couples in data a disco organized by the south korean government did club only welcomes senior. Sooner people who are sixty five years old or above the event is the first of his kind aims to tackle loneliness and the mancha in south korea so first of all. Why does it ben those who are younger than sixty five years old then not that lonely. They haven't got dementia. I think <hes> my intuition intuition into it is that if it's government involved this using taxpayers money and then they should be more sort of <hes> you know undue spend every dollar every every penny should be spent with in the right way in the in the right way so six. This should be an age mark anyway. Do fifty under or sixty five sixty five is <hes> quite reasonable because now only yeah maybe it fits within the retirement physics physicality sixty-five five above your was your physical health so i sort of understand this one but one thing i couldn't really understand is y okay. I think in china elderly people have long been organizing. You know dancing. Parties square downs themselves why why it took so long. It's just recently for the first time i kind first of its kind and it has to be organized by a government. How about these people. Oh you okay if the government didn't come mean. What were you doing at home in a waiting for dementia to happen. In the chinese scar down some ladies are are comparatively more self-motivated yeah of course and then they they went outside to tourism everything all sorts of things they're so active active but but i don't know the elderly people in south korea they they stay home this this would be under the category of of you know elderly care it would be something like a you know a the way i see it. It's not necessarily something that the private sector would normally do but this is something that would be very good for elderly people and would be almost like i don't know how to put it in the house this much different than putting <hes> the sort of exercise equipment that you see all over beijing and over time in the parks that are very low level easy sorts of things that that mostly that's where old people that's for old people to to kids too. I guess but it's mostly for old people to have some low low era some aerobic low impact exercise to keep their bodies healthy doesn't cost a lot of money and it's fun and so this is the same kind of thing it sounds to me. It's good good government spending it. It keeps these people active it keeps them more healthy in and if it works if it's popular of the people i should like it then. I don't see why it couldn't the private. <unk> sector couldn't come in and do it even better. I think this is the policy stimulation your body. The beat very obvious be well. Uh so there's some sort of report showing that in beijing some karaoke katie it has opened to sinner people during daytime so it welcomes sooner people and grandpa's impasse in the daytime with a cheaper price. Let me show you with the very very beautiful story. One of my colleagues learning eighties age. She told me said three generations my grandma love singing and my mother my father and me and my husband sometimes so we spent the whole day bringing some snacks to carol qui studio a small room right the three generations have wonderful family together seeing old songs news on smartphones and eat the having fun together so can this method of coping with aging society in south korea also work in in other countries so what are the other ways to help elderly cure and diety after their retirement. I think we should resort to maltese you and you lay layers and small even museums museums of very visit physically consuming. Sometimes i love museums but it's too big or whatever we can redesign it. Make it smaller. Maybe just the the whole room. Only three pictures there for you to look at also china has something we can be boast off. Love is the universities for the aged l'union basham it started from a nineteen eighty three very long time ago and under the director of nece guided by the government and the ministry who's taking care civil affairs or whatever ministry so once you said okay. This does not need mitalent specialty anymore. I can learn everything in this university. I was noticing when i was was in the u._s. Just the last summer there were several places in the town i was i was in indiana indiana virginia anniversary. I saw this thing said adult day care center adult adult as could usually day care center is a center where mothers or the family can drop the kids off during the day while they do something or especially pre preschool school kids or whatever and now it's it's where the relatives are usually the wife from can quote drop the husband off here at a daycare center while while she goes into some things needs to do so just like a child daycare center. They have adult men or women idea. It is a very very good idea and also oh because they have they have certain games. You have people who are experts in in dementia. They have the several kinds of food. They have people that try to group them in the same kinds of who do the same kinds of problems too so that there's a room where people don't talk very much. There's rumor people were more active and if you do it safely and well and especially according to a sort of medical procedure with elderly people people dementia since there's no legal issues it could become just another something that people can use news in their daily lives to make both you and or elderly person happy <hes> well for the young for the senior. If you feel lonely or depressed you may shake it up and just ends. That's it for this episode of weekly the weekend edition of today a quick wrap up of topics jack ma and elon musk debate about why and impact dorian and talk user spending eleven million dollars in july japan plans to raise the pension age beyond seventy and so fiscal organized by the south korean government for senior people today joining us in the studio art david motza associate dean of yen ching academy at taking university and our commentator modeling. Thank you all for coming. Thank you with news and analysis weekly keeps you informed and inspired a moyal. Thank you so much for joining us <music>.

china jack ma china japan associate dean peking university united states south korea elon musk donald donald trump japan youtube ella mapo l. south korean government alibaba tesla
Revisiting Governor Eric Holcomb discusses tech growth in Indiana | Ep. 63

The ROI Podcast

19:57 min | 2 years ago

Revisiting Governor Eric Holcomb discusses tech growth in Indiana | Ep. 63

"The. Welcome to another episode of the ROI podcast presented by the Indian university Kelley school of business. I'm your host Matt Martel alongside associate dean, Phil Powell. We just wanna say for those that are joining us for the very first time, welcome to the show. We work hard to put out a weekly episode that helped organizations make better business decisions. And if you'd like to give us a topic that we could talk about, if you have some questions we can answer or you just know amazing guests that would be great for our show. Shoot us an Email. You can reach us at our pod. That's our p. o. d. at UP UPI dot EDU again, our pod at UP you, I dot EDU and we just we wanted to take a step back and kind of revisit an episode I think deserves another. Listen to earlier in the summer. Phil had an opportunity to sit down with God. Governor, Eric Holcomb here of Indiana in really dive into more of the tech aspects and things that are happening within innovation. The has to do with business in Indiana and being able to have such a intimate moment with the governor. I mean, here you are in his living room just being able to share what Kelly's doing and then also seeing what his initiatives are within Deanna talk about that for well, you know, as a state university, we have an economic development mission, and it's important to be aligned with whomever's in the governor's office governor Holcomb has his finger on the on the pulse of what drives economic development in any region, and that's talent. You know, people ask me, we'll fill what holds big companies back from growing. Well, it's not the traditional answers you think of. It's not access to capital. It's not access to technology is not access to natural resources. It's access to talent and. That's the biggest bottleneck that Indiana faces and really any region faces in in terms of driving growth. You know, look at Minneapolis Minneapolis as the most dynamic, reasonable, Connie in the mid west. It's farthest from the oceans. It's farthest from the mountains. It's colder and it has higher tax rates. The reason Minneapolis is so dynamic is because over forty five percent of their populations a college degree when you compare that to Indianapolis, which is twenty five percent. We have a big gap to close and this is why the governor is appointed a whole separate workforce cabinet, and it was just great to share how Kelly school is is a part of that, but also get his insights on how we can further support his agenda in bringing prosperity to the region. So talk about, you know how your initiatives here at Kelly are kind of starting to close that gap. What are some things that have been changing or things that you've seen. That were getting people more engaged in this collegiate environment, especially here in Indianapolis. Well, you know, our our interview with governor occur the same time that we invited the high tech community out to community launch pad, community, launchpad, sort of design thinking studio that community health uses to drive innovation healthcare, and they approached us along with counterparts software to sort of brainstorming session of how how can the Kelley school better help. Our tech companies here in town make better businesses as a region. If our if our technology companies are making better businesses that just makes us more more globally competitive. But the thing is in high tech cycles move so quickly. And. This is a sector where your success successes product driven. So if you able to write code, if you know the technology side, typically the business part will take care of itself. And so this is a sector that traditionally shoes kind of traditional education, even traditional computer science education. So we're gonna if we're going to, if we're going to add value to that market, if higher education's gonna add value for hi-tech, we've got gotta change the way that we deliver it. High-tech moves so quickly and opportunity costs. Everybody's time is so high that it's important that the Kelley school immerses itself in the tech sector here that we don't require them to meet us where we are. We don't require them to come to campus and meet our semester calendar. I mean a semester calendar is based upon a nineteenth century understanding of agricultural harvest times when you go to school right. High tech is twenty th century. The average professional changes organizations and Silicon Valley every twelve months. This is a sector that moves fast. Fast. So they want the most current knowledge in the easiest most digestible form that can be put to work very quickly. This is a challenge for higher education where we used to move more slowly. We're used to, you know, thinking about things and and and and reflecting no, in high tech, it's gotta be easy to understand. It has to be has to be the newest knowledge and had to be able to play quickly. So we asked in that meeting with those high tech firms, how can the Kelley school almost make it self obsolete in the weight delivers education so that we can be more relevant to the high tech sector so is important to have. It was excited. Have that conversation along the same time. We're having the conversation with the governor, I think, is our job as Indiana University as a school of business to bring that together and the liver to solve some of these knowledge and talent questions for these sectors. Because if we can solve those issues, we're gonna make our region more competitive relative. The other regions around the United States that are also -tracting high tech firms, high-tech talent. Alright. Well, without further. Do you? Let's jump into the podcast here is Phil Powell with governor Eric Holcomb. We're here today to talk about this burgeoning high-tech explosion and some ways this renaissance that we're seeing around the state, especially in the Indianapolis region here in the circle city. I run into more and more people that have relocated from Silicon Valley. One question I went to lead here with is high tech while the sudden why here? Why now will Indianapolis is a sticky place. Meaning once you get here, you you fall in love with it and it's for a number of different reasons. It didn't happen overnight. We've been ushering in this renaissance fairly methodically over the years and not just in my time being associated with state government, but certainly we've seen at take off or launch, but the state of Indiana, when I think about it, we, we've always been the state that makes in grows. Things now were just like the rest of the. Global economy. We find ourselves competing in a innovative economy folks who embrace the future folks that understand the scale and the pace of change is unprecedented and it you either set out to make that your ally or it will be your adversary, you will be left behind. And obviously, part of our DNA here in Indianapolis were here in the month of may celebrate, not just high tech, but we're also celebrating racing, and I look at those drivers on that track every year, tweaking and changing something that will give them one more nanosecond of an unfair competitive advantage. And those those folks like the state of Indiana who seek to integrate all the technological changes that are coming our way the way we live our lives, the way we eat the way we build. That's really set us apart that aspirated how do we take it to the next level? And when you think again. About being here in the state of Indiana number one per capita in the in the country in terms of manufacturing, it's always the what's next. That's the most important and we have sought to through partnerships the state government. We have sought to set the table, make this a very attractive place to not just invest, but to grow. And what I mean by setting the table is we are, we are alluring place in terms of our tax climate terms of our regulatory climate, very predictable. We provide that certainty folks know that it's a sound investment that we're here to stay that our relationship is is or that bond mean something. We're not transient in our relationships, whether it's with one another here or around the world. And so setting that table gets gets folks in the door. And then what comes from that, those relationships that we build has really led us to this place of prominence in terms of being a hub in the American market, I always talk about, you know, we're right in the center of it. All right. In the middle of the country, heart of the heartland, we're not the coast or the fringe, but we're right in the middle connected to all all places coast-to-coast. When I talked to the high tech companies here in Indianapolis, you would think that their biggest barriers to growth our money or technology, but it's actually people. One of the signature efforts of your administration in this last legislative session was to take a first step and looking at it complete revision of how the state attacks the issue of workforce. If you think of the high tech sector, probably the one that creates the most value can grow the fastest and has the highest paying jobs. Can you briefly give us. You're three or vision on the workforce side, and how do you see? Hi tech specifically benefiting us. And what are some of the changes that target that sector then maybe the most in terms of, you know, when you think about the boxes, you have to check to compete and win in the global marketplace. Of course, you have to check the economy box. You have to make sure your sound place to invest course. You have to have the infrastructure in place to connect with all places around the world and around the country into one another that could that's broadband internet that's roads and bridges that water ports, airports all the above, how you connect and communicate with one another, but the box that's the most important that your greatest asset is people your talent. And when we assessed the state of Indiana state of six point, six million, we've been acting out of, you know, the law of necessity meaning that we used to be. I talked about it'd being a string bean in the middle of. At all. That used to be thought of as flyover country. We've made it unaffordable to fly over Indiana. So check that which that box what we have to do is make sure that our talent is being groomed to get from that. Maybe that bottom wrong to the middle and have that upward mobility into do that. You have to connect again people with the resources of the skills to move where we live in a target rich environment for this by the way. That's the good news, bad news of at all. We have twenty seven thousand hoosiers in our prison system. We have foreigners, five thousand hoosiers who don't have a high school diploma or the equivalency of one. We have seven hundred plus thousand hoosiers who started college and then quit. That's already over a million people right there that we can if we scale them up personally, if we scale them up, then our companies will scale up as well. And so what we've done is I earlier as you alluded to set out to eliminate. Eight kind of the middle bureaucratic territory where fortunately, the state of Indiana because of our economic position, we have the resources, it's how do we get them to people, how do we get them to employ es and employers? Have we connect those two? And so we've sought to get ourselves out of the way, but get the resources to the people. And we said, okay, there's five growing sectors in the state of Indiana high wage, high demand jobs, waiting, we know of exactly where ninety three thousand of them are. I mean, we live in this world where we have the same number of unemployed people as unfilled jobs in the country. True here in the state of Indiana ninety three thousand unfilled jobs where we know where the address is now, do we know the address of a person who can fill that job, then what do we do to get that person skilled up to fill job? Again, we have the resources to do that. So we've said, if you're willing to put in the time, just the time. Time, the state of Indiana is willing to put in the money to get you that credential that bad that certificate to double or triple your salary. And I e is a central part of it all. In fact, maybe the most important because as we watch companies, whether they're in central Indiana, an urban area or a rural area, think about I constantly I don't lose sleep over data demographics, but it does keep me up late at night. Thinking about in one thousand nine hundred, thirteen percent of the world's population lived in urban area today. Fifty six percent live in an urban area in a city by twenty fifty. If we stay on this current trajectory or trend, it'll be seventy percent in a city. So what does that mean to the rural parts of our state or the rural parts of our country? How do we connect? How do we keep those areas, vibrant, it is the education and skilling up. It's having those. Resources personally to meet those jobs that artificial intelligence hasn't even told us what they're going to be in ten years. And so we have to respond to that in addition to the seven hundred thousand baby boomers in the state of Indiana that will retire, how do we fill those jobs and so- matching those million that are there right now with a million jobs that will have to fill over the next decade. Not to mention all the other jobs that will be created again that we don't know of what they are right now, but folks who are in kindergarten first grade, we better be prepared to skill them up, lifelong. Talk about your goals as you travel and go to places and go to countries that perhaps other governors have not visited, and if you can bring that back to how that will help either directly or indirectly, the high tech sector here in Indiana. You know, I talk a lot about Indian as the state of pioneers and. That that is not looking back that is looking into new frontiers and not just exploring, but developing those new frontiers. And so again, you have to, you have to show up, I you you, you can't negotiate every deal from stand on Hoosier soil. It works both ways. It has to be a win win relationship. And in terms of exploring new territory, the world gets smaller and smaller and smaller by the day time goes faster and faster and faster and the quicker we can get to solving. We're not left with any of the easy problems to solve by the way though the hardest of all. But fortunately, because we can partner, you can. You can build a product in Indiana using research and development from Melbourne, tapping into the latest and greatest from New Delhi all at the same time. I mean, real time you can be interconnected. ID and producing products right here in the state of Indiana. And that's that's an exciting exciting endeavor in terms of that business to business relationship. It's also I call Geeta g government to government, not just business business, but government to government. So marrying to places of of that have a mutual goal, but offer that certainty and over that predictability and and and and and then in addition to that people to people. So we also seek and every trip I go to, whether it's Budapest or or Bengal, or we seek to foster cultural exchanges as well. And and the latest is I just returned from Jerusalem and and we, we extended the invitation to to bring back some antiquities some artifacts here to the state of Indiana. That otherwise I not gone in and been invited to come inside of the Rockefeller museum and see the the very facility that housed the Dead Sea scrolls. We wouldn't have that opportunity or invite folks from Israel a country that's sixty percent desert a quarter of the size of the state of Indiana invite some of their elementary and high school students to come over and and and work with our FFA. Our future farmers of America sixty seven thousand will descend on the state of Indiana for nine years straight and then hopefully beyond that, but but integrating are to this innovation nation. Israel, that one of the powerhouses in the world with one of the powerhouses in terms of production and manufacturing Indian there one quarter, the size of the state of Indiana and against sixty percent work were eighty three percent farm and forest. What happens when you marry those two. You know, good things come, but you have to show up first and foremost, and then you have to agree on what is it exactly we want to accomplish here and it always comes down to what comes out of it. At the end of the day, are we improving quality of life? Are we in l. really improving for both of us quality place and those are the partners I want to do business with. Obviously, a lot of our listeners are earlier in their career, maybe thinking about an MBA they may live in Indianapolis and love the new scene here, the new opportunities that are coming from other places as governor of this great state, what is some advice or a message that you'd like to leave for the rest of us? Well, that's that's the close right there. I love. I love the final pitch. It's it's. Not just dream big, but go big. I mean, we take the state of Indiana global and we don't just think inside our own border or own municipality. The lines we vet, we ignore the lines to be quite Frank. And so I would say think big, go big Indiana wants you to do it here. You can do it here and I think faster and bigger than and then anywhere that compete with never settle, it's it's, it's it's thinking big that will get us to those final solutions faster and and get engaged now. And what I mean by that is as you're learning also be doing applying that education or that training or that retraining, and so that you're the passport that you hold of life. When you're going from place to place or experience to experience, how's it building on top of each other? And then making sure that at the at the end of the day, that transition is an abrupt because you've that. It's just seamless that transition. It's one constant improvement of not just your life, but everything you touch.

Indiana Indianapolis Kelley school Indian university Kelley schoo Indiana University Phil Powell Eric Holcomb Kelly Silicon Valley Matt Martel Minneapolis United States associate dean Rockefeller museum Deanna
162: Have you forgotten how to dream?[Podcast]

Company of One with Dale Callahan

42:52 min | 1 year ago

162: Have you forgotten how to dream?[Podcast]

"Welcome to the company of one. This is episode number one hundred and sixty two. Have you forgotten how I'll to dream. Have you forgotten how to dream. Have you forgotten what it's like to have a dream. Unfortunately many of us that that is true and so many of the conversations I have had today the last week the last couple of months and just conversations I have all the time frankly are about just the fact that we're lacking the ability to drain. So I'm del Callahan. I am your host for those of you. That don't know we. I am an associate dean of Engineering The University of Alabama Birmingham. And it's been doing helping people for years now Doing executive cutive edge engineering education. Whatever that means right but that means helping professionals that are out in industry figure out? What's next and move to the next level? The dreaming thing is a big part of that and by that I don't mean pipe dream I mean. Have you forgotten what it's like to have a dream to have a real goal that's beyond the day-to-day I asked that question of client just the other day and when I did that he was talking through all of his options he said. Should I take this job. I'll just put translated into my words a minor promotion or should I take but this other job in another company still in my words it was kind of a minor promotion again. He wasn't calling any of these a minor. Promotions is kind of how I I looked at it. I'm sure he was filling like it was a bump in pay a better title bright but as described both I can tell and you you know you've seen this and people he could care less he really. His heart didn't have any more more action to it as to whether he took job or job he he just didn't care and is He described these two things. I'm we'll take this chip this promotion inside my company are GonNa take this promotion in another company. Don't really care. And just the look on his face was as if I'm just brain dead either way and I don't care where I'm going so I know that many of us feel I know that you you might feel that and the only I know you might feel that is because many people tell me that is exactly how I feel that it's just numb So I asked him I said what do you really want. Take all this off the table. This I'm going to ask you right. Think about this for yourself. What do you really want takeoff all the table all the baggage by baggage? I mean all the things that that you have experience with. What if what do you WANNA do? If you step back and money was not an option and ask him that question and he just looked at me as if I had begun speaking Chinese right it was such a foreign concept. He just sat there and he said after a moment at all talk of Awkward Science. I said have you forgotten how to dream and Dylan. Another few minutes of Awkward Science Silence. He said He said I have even forgotten what it means to dream now. That may they seem kind of sad to you but probably too many of you. That are listening. That is going to hit home again. I know because these are the conversations I have all most daily. We're in for most of the people. I'm talking to there in the United States in the freest country. Three in the world. You might argue that with me based on where you're coming from but we have all these options and even many other countries trees we have all these options and we quit dreaming so today we kind of want to talk about what some of those things are looking at. What does it mean to go back and dream and what are some of the things That have held us back. Because it's interesting when we peel back the layers say what's keeping me from living dreaming dream or what's keeping me from dreaming something bigger so the first thing is most of us have relegated our dreaming to somebody else. We've delegated we've outsourced if you will we've let somebody else do something you know. We used to be a nation. I'm speaking of the United States but probably no matter where you are a new culture. You are in. You've got dreamers and you've got a history and you've got a culture where there are people people who dreamed and innovated and made things happen right almost speak from the United States as what I know best but we see that in so much of the inventions. We see that and and so much of societal change is just people used to have dreams. But now we've become mostly a nation of of settlers. I don't mean we're settled into new homes or anything we'd settled. I settled for this job. We settle for a pay raise. We settle for new title title. We settle for watching other people do amazing things in work hard and make things happen right. We settle for having our mind. Nine may numb by the corporate grind mostly made numb by sitting in meaningless meetings being led led by people who also have no dreams and their mind is numb. That's leave settled for right and think about it when we go home and this is the typical. The person I'm working with that is their life. They describe it. They're they're tied to email. There are tied to meetings. I'm not making emails and meetings evil. I'm just saying they have relegated their days to that without a lot of thought about what's really going on and then when they get home. This is the part I really love. They've given somebody else control of that because many of these people have children. And what are their children's. Doing their children are driving them to soccer to basketball. Aw to band practice to whatever and there'd be driven by a school system as a matter of fact when we used to have our kids in school it was like like the school system controlled us and it does right. You've got to get yourself up. You gotta get your kids ready. You've got to get them on the bus many times you. You have to go do things that they want done. But after work the school still controls a lot of what you're doing you have to go do things and you have to go to games. James in many of us will say many people have told me. It's for my kids and when you talk to their kids the kids don't really we care that much. They disliked to go play the game not many kids or driven as the parents. And what are the parents driven by this is this is going to get insane saying what are the parents driven by. The parents are driven by hoping they can get their kids into college during the sport or the activity activity and get a scholarship so that they can get a job like the parent so they can be mine numb to. I mean that's the society that were built in. We're kind of in this endless loop of dream killers. That's what we have become in our society now. I know what you're thinking we've got plenty of great big dreamers. We've got people that have done all some things and we still look at them. Tesla's on television Elon Musk is is on television today in brandishing his new vehicles in the awesome things he's doing but these guys are rare and forget Tesla. Just just take him at the people in your hometown. The people doing small things if you will. It's not billions of dollars tied to it still. We don't see a lot. aww dreamers. We don't see a lot of people taking action in for many of them for everyone. There's a thousand sitting on their hands. Right what's what's wrong with this because this to the rest of us. Yeah the rest of us. Do we want to sit on my hands. You know so. We've suffer partly after our children after our job. And by the way I call that the corporate lobotomy right. It's it's it's it's become it's made you brain numb. I said that I was in a meeting with a CIO. This morning of a of a large corporation may deter term corporate lobotomy. He just he looked at me. Very sternly at first in any kind of laughed as I. Yeah that's pretty much where we are. You know you've been working for the company for twenty years. He feels it. I know always feels it. He's doing cool things but there's part of him that it's just going to meetings but then on top of that on top the corporate on top of what the school systems to us in top of everybody having an agenda force except us then we relegate our time to entertainment were entertained. A death like about Youtube three point two billion hours of Youtube. I'm looking at the data right here in in front of me. The three point two billion hours of youtube are watched every month. How many how many do you account for right? How many of those are the cat? Videos dead are just silly. How many of those do you watch over and over and show him to your friends? The number of hours people spend watching videos we call it watch time. I'm on Youtube alone. Forget all the other platforms on. Youtube alone is up sixty percent year over year. Meaning we watch more more and more videos. I know what you're thinking. There's a lot of really good educational awesome stuff on Youtube. I agree. How much do you really really watching them? Go see what gets watched the most kids on boxing toys. That's pretty cool. There's there was the one I've noticed that I forget the boy's name. He just drink a bottle of water right so he just sitting there drinking water in the hold and he just gets tons of youtube views. Is that really entertaining or is it educational. I don't know. So what are we doing. We were we just relegated. So much of our time and energy to This again corporate lobotomy. This is this is why some back up here and say why I think this is going on number one. You and I have become numb. Were just beat to death. Going to meetings meaningless meaningless meetings oftentimes terrible terrible leadership that getting US kind of stuck in this You might not have been here too long. You might have been in this situation forever where I don't know but you're feeling corporate lobotomy sits stuck in your also being taught to follow think about it the Average parent is teaching their kids to get into college. That's the big giant goal of parents. I know we have a company that talks talks to parents all over the country sometimes all over the world but primarily all over the country. The big goal is college for almost every one of them. They don't really care about the learning. They care about college getting my kid into college UAE so my kid can go get a job and get their own corporate lobotomy right. So why are we not being taught to dream. Why are we not being taught to step out there so what I WANNA do is encourage you to start to dream again to start to dream again? I do you remember the dreams that you used to have the things that you wanted to do. The the missions purposes. Or whatever you wanted to call it you still have the little notebook. Are Things where you wrote things down and and you drew pictures church. Maybe even when you're a teenager or maybe even younger the things that you wanted to do that may seem so impractical now or not but do you even remember them. And what is the dream today. I promise you if I set down right in front of you and we had a chat chat and I ask you what you're trying to achieve many of you would just give me mind-numbing conversation about what the next position was in a lot of technical detail. Not because you're you can't dream it's just because we've been kind of beat down to that point. I know I've been there. I might be there now. I don't know trying to struggle through this is not always that straightforward. So let's think about how do we recapture. Okay so I want you to recapture it. I want you to drink. I want you to tell me what you're dreaming. I want you to tell me what you want to do. Because that's awesome. It's always awesome. Awesome to learn one of the coolest things that I've done is being part of this graduate program that we do at the university not because universities universities perfect no not because the graduate program is even perfect but because we are engaging with people all over the country well now all over the world That are taking part in graduate education. They're all professionals. They're all trying to find things and they're beginning to dream again some of them and they're beginning to to explore ideas again and they're beginning to as somebody said tonight to me. I'm learning a ton about myself So they're finding ending ways to be inspired so the first thing to do to find to be inspired is fine. New Ways to be inspired is to find people who fascinate you. That doesn't mean they have to be a Hollywood person. It doesn't mean any particular aspect of them who fascinates you howdy the hang around them right fine people who inspire you you know they. They might be the little old lady at Church who just has such energy. She inspires hires you. And whenever you're around her you feel awesome. They may be a friend. They need SPEC- people that in your city that are doing cool things. They may be leaders of some particular thing or foundation. You care about but the people that you just know these people are making things happen and we tend to flock to those people in our different little groups right. Your people will be different than my people. Probably but finding those people who fascinate you and hang around them because what happens is when we're hanging around that kind of generates thoughts. We see people doing things that encourages us. The opposite thing we don't want to do is we want to be careful who you hang around right the steeds this the side part of that because you only have so much time and being with people it just are not the best people for you to be with attitude is contagious. Attitude is deadly contagious. If you hang around people who are negative in wine all the time you're going to be negative in line all the time if you hang around broke people. You're going to be Brooke if you you head around a hang out around fat people. You're probably going to gain weight mostly because you're sitting there sharing a bunch of snacks together right so but you gotta fight five do the opposite of that fine people who fascinates you because that's what I'm saying. Is that the two of them when you start doing the right thing. You have to do less in the wrong thing and hang around the wrong people. I got a podcast. I'll I'll put a note in Lincoln. The show notes to about you know you become who you hang around and that's boy. That's a deadly trite. The second thing is defined new ideas to try those things you always wanted to do but you never had time. We never had money. You probably have time and money to do there now but to do that. You need to make time by. Quitting the activities is that have no value on your life right. Think about the things that you're doing think about the the people you're hanging out with. Does it provide provide you joy to really just make you smile and your look forward to doing it. Do you look forward to doing or you just in the habit of doing it it. This is something you need to be asking about everything. We asked that about our job a lot of times whoops. We asked that about our job a lot of times. I know because those are the conversations have but what about the other things. What about the people? You're going out to lunch with most of you go to lunch with people you work with you. Despise them or you despise the work and it's negative in his bitter because even if they may be friends of yours you negative talk just dominates. What about all the people all people like it or not people are the thing thing that inspires us right so this is the third thing? Think about the people people who are doing amazing things people who are passionate about what they do people Who we connect with autism purposes? We want to focus on these people so find the people that fascinate us. Try New things and focus us on the people. It's never the thing is is what I'm saying here. It's the people why software if you're into software. It's probably not just a software. It's the people doing it. The people teaching it the people that are leading the charge the people that are writing the books of people that are doing those youtube videos that you watch when you decide to get off the cat videos right. It's those people who inspires So quit these people who do. Don't inspire you you who are not good relationship for you. Stopping you around them. That's all this recapture capture the spirit of dreaming. This is the spirit because you have to fill your soul right you have to fill your soul with stuff that it makes you wake up. Sometimes this is an environment right. Sometimes this is. I'm in the wrong environment. The wrong company wrong city the wrong among friends. That and you know what you know what I mean. You know the feeling. It's hard to describe it sold draining. It just takes all all the energy out of you and kills the your inner spirit so you WanNa thing you want to be around the things that live in you up and that make that happen when you get around that you're going to inspire dreaming and then you need to dream. I'll one doesn't come before the other. Hopefully this makes percents to you. Let's talk about Dreaming Dreams. The fun part dreaming is where this is what we do. We start dreaming. We start thinking we start thinking about about possibilities because that's what dreaming is about possibilities. We tend to put on the brakes so then dream. Failure is not the right outlook to try to grow the point right. It's not about whether I can do something or a can't it's trying to grow grow your you ever thought about. Hey there's this hobby I want to take on. Maybe there's this art class. I want to go and I want to go do that. And there's this art class going over there it doesn't mean you want want to go there when you probably do. It doesn't mean you're going to go there and do fantastic art. It means you're going to go there to waken up Bahir self to waken up your inner soul right. You're going to go there and try to shake yourself loose. You're going to go there to do art. It's not about about being perfect. It's about growing. You might get there and say I hate this. This was all an idealized dream. Then you know not to do it anymore anymore. Because the journey not the destination we all know that. Sometimes we have more fun in getting there than we do. ACSI Z.. Getting to the destiny of driving to another town. We're doing something sometimes. The trip is more fun than actually getting there see more possibilities. This is the part that I am always flag flag flabbergasted. I'm always flabbergasted. Did with is people in their possibilities. Now let me be fair. I spend a lot of time around really a lot of smart people people with cool titles people with cool jobs people with cooled grease people. Oh who who have thoughts that are bigger than mine and they make my head hurt listening to the things they talk about that. They know they do because they're really sharp people. So I'm saying that to say smart people right. This is In at least an academic terms right it's shocking the number of fences they put around themselves. They put borders around themselves. And here's examples. People will tell me I can't do do this because my my degree is in X.. My degree is in computer science. So anything outside of computers. It's not for. Hey our company does this in my experience in this company. Is You know twenty years working in this company. This is what I know and therefore this this is what I can do. They didn't put barriers on themselves. Based on the Zip code they live in. You know. Here's things between get away with in my town down and we in most of these by the way are not true most two these are mental barriers. And you're probably saying no Monteriro. Oh Oh you're lying for example in recent meeting with the CIO and he was telling me personal it wasn't as corporate issue but he's a cio so he has a successful successful role. He's a smart guy and he's talking about what's next. He thought his only options. It was almost kinda sad. Listen to him. I thought his only options were to become another cio to maybe move to a CEO type role to take some kind of consulting role in the C.. I. A. World Information Information Technology but he discounted all the other things he liked doing. He had all these things he liked real estate he liked fixing up houses. He liked He likes snow skiing. zoff kinds of things. He out on his list of things he enjoyed doing but he just didn't see this options for for what to go do as a career so how we put barriers on ourselves By saying I can't do that because is this is my degree or I can't do that because this is where I went to college or this. This is what company did or this is where I live. We put barriers on our head all the time. I spend my head banging my head against a wall working with people on this and yet I will do the same thing the outcome. I know you're guilty because I teach this stuff. I work with people daily on this stuff and then I find myself doing the same thing. That's human nature we do that we put limitations on ourselves. We're humbled to our own fault often that we just don't believe even that arrogant person that runs around talking about how great they are inside. They don't believe it they're unsure and all those kind of things so we tend to kill ideas very quickly because we think that's not our skill another reason we tend to kill ideas. is we see somebody else already doing it right. Somebody's already doing it How dare dare me enter the market? I look at real estate right. If you throw a rock you can hit a real estate agent. Maybe there should be a lawyer but anyway if you there's a real estate agent on every single corner and people will say it's a crowded market you can't get into that. How dare me in a real estate because who am I to do this? Yes and yet somebody new will move into real estate tomorrow and be wildly successful even though it's an overcrowded market right right we tend to kill ideas when we see somebody doing. And that's an easy one. What about technical idea think about Walmart there were stores around when they started started Walmart? Right there is a big giant store by the name of K.. Mart that you may not know who they are anymore because Walmart worked right. They came onto the space. What about facebook? A lot of people think about facebook as being the first social media business. It wasn't they were kind of late to the game. Actually so was Google Google. Google was late to the game. The investors in Google actually had doubts because they thought these guys are so far behind the eight ball. There's no market left and got into it now. All three of those companies. I just mentioned look on the richest people in the world and see whose names are on their representatives from Walmart facebook Google and a couple of other companies but they all started that way they all started. Somebody else was already doing it. Somebody was already in the space but they did it anyway. So did the corner laundry Mat guy. WHO's right down the road from you? There's laundry mats everywhere. He or she entered the laundry at business and probably doing okay. If they stay there right you can kind of tell so so did the person that's holding the job you've now won't right there somebody. It took a job that you now won't and somebody else was doing it so if somebody else can do something and why not. You not know people who think that way. That's how that's their true attitude that they'll look and say well John's doing it. I guess I can do it into them. That's reassuring that they think John's not so brilliant John Smart Enough Guy and so I can do it too but what. Many of us think is wil John's doing. Wow Wow wow he's he's brilliant. He's got lots of money. He's got lots of things going for him. He speaks better than I do. He knows things I. Don't we do that to ourselves ourselves. And we beat ourselves up in yet where we don't see is John's flaws and he's loaded with them you know. Wow I I know that. But because he's human and he's got plenty of them so if somebody else can do something. Why can't you now the so so we see this? We discount ourselves. We kill an idea. oftentimes when we see somebody already ready doing it wrong. That should be absolutely reassuring when we see somebody else doing something. We can do it too if we won't do but the ones it's even crazier is. We might think nobody has done it so it can't be done. We see this one all the time. I will look at tests lot right. Look at you know. Look at Steve. Jobs look at facebook some of some of these things where while they're entering markets did things in a way. That weren't done before but we. We might think what I'm doing can't be done sometimes. I see this nonprofits right. People will tell me all the time every I always I always say in. I've got A. I'll put some links to supposed on this about if you're thinking about starting a non-profit thing again a lot of people will tell me I'm going to start a non-profit because I want to serve the homeless or I want to serve the poor or I want to serve this population and the only way I can serve them as the non-profit because they can't pay how Mo- you know I'll always laugh at that and a great example always uses Dave Ramsey by definition Daveramsey serves. Broke people. Right seems to be doing okay seems to make a lot of money. There's lots of examples like that that you can actually make lots of money. People will actually in our culture people have plenty of money to pay for what they really truly value so for the heart of serving. Sometimes we think caine thanks can't be done but let me give you some other examples. It's really close to home to me. So my daughter Shakespeare or Shakespeare girl as an example so She has a degree in English. And she's always had this his passion for Shakespeare it. She's always explored this idea of Shakespeare and she came to me one day talking about. Do you think there's an opportunity not to do a youtube channel or our podcast on Shakespeare in anybody will listen to it and I said probably not. That's not I really want said. But that's what was going on the back of my mind cause I'm thinking who is going to listen to that. I know people go to Shakespeare plays and do that. But WHO's GONNA listen to somebody. Talk Talk About Shakespeare but also in the back of my head. I know there's too many examples that this is happens. So she's got now a growing audience where she is talking about Shakespeare Right. It's she's actually won the best and I've got it written any of the best. Shakespeare themed animation at the Shakespeare Film Festival. Aykroyd up at a link. The show nuts three minutes Romeo and Juliet. It's awesome because if you're like me that's about all you can stand up. Romeo and Juliet is three minutes. He know what's going on. She's got another one she's just released hamlet in in three minutes That is out there. It's awesome it gets lots and lots of views and she's serving a market. You know what does it. I don't understand it I I are. Frankly don't understand how this market makes sense to me but it works. She's doing something she has passion for doing. And it's growing and slowly but surely it's beginning to get traction. My son who's seventeen is a became. A book. Tuber came to me one time. I wanted to be a book book tuber. This is a youtube thing. Never heard of it. These people get on line. Talk about books. I guess if cat videos work and in watching somebody drink water. Works and watch somebody. UNWRAP gifts works on Youtube. Talking about books will work so I looked up today. Hey his video type of book shelves. That's what it's called and he's just showing. Here's my here's my book sale. Full this book can. Here's my empty bookshelf. And here's the mental list Vote Bay. I mean it's it's silly to me. It's got a lot of us why I don't know he's communicating something something to an audience that gets. She's communicating something to an audience. That gets Shakespeare. What about your audience? What do you you want to communicate to people? What kind of problems do you want to saw? What do you love doing? This is the dreaming part. It's not about anybody else's story it is is about yours. What do you think couldn't be done? Why would I think there should not be somebody who just gets on the radio and talks about L. Shakespeare because doesn't make sense to me just because nobody else appeared to be doing it so who's to say that won't work for you? What are you doing what are you want to do the other one? I love the thing that captures this. I'm giving you all kinds of challenges that go through your head but I know they you go through your head but this one we have a name for. It's called the imposter syndrome. You felt it and it's that voice in your head that says says who am I to do that and I'll use cassidy as an example so cassidy Shakespeare stuff and she studies for her videos. The life of Shakespeare crazy things like did shakespeare used toothpaste. Did Shakespeare used math in his the plays and just all kinds of weird eccentric kind of things about Shakespeare will. Some of it gets into academic research the things we published in the academia that nobody reads and I remember her calling me one time and she says I'm going to speak at this conference. They asked me to go to speak at and and everybody else is a PhD English. And all this Shakespeare stuff who am I to be on the stage with him. I was thinking. Probably the most interesting of them because they're all boring. But that's not what I said you tip because she we have this envisioned at the PhD's Hd of the world are brilliant. Or something. I hang around PhD's all the time. I promise you if you don't already know this. They're not brilliant. They may think they are but they're not brilliant. They know one thing really well and I'm not even questioned them on that. So but you feel that way right. You feel how how dare to do this. I see a lot of people wanted to make career moves. Who Am I to lead this team? Who Am I to lead this project? Right voice list goes in the back of our head and it's almost fear will hit us when we're being asked to do something. I often don't know the steps to take this. There's another one you find. People say often when we start to dream. We don't know the steps to take. I'm going to pick on Tesla here. Do you think Adl on. Musk and his early team. New early on exactly what it was gonNA look like to roll out these. He's electric vehicles that performance vehicles. That probably had this vague vision and some kind of idea that probably is not the way it turned doubt. I just know lots of companies start outs startups. It doesn't work the way. Yeah originally thought it did but in general they kind of knew where they were going and they knew the first couple of steps to take. That's all you really need. You don't really have to know a lot. I'll make a great example of this. Sara Blakely some of you may know the founder under a spanks women's clothing. I don't know what all she makes. She started spanks and she had If I remember right they were pantyhose. Didn't have faith in them. I probably am saying that wrong. But those women out there. You'll understand what I'm getting at right and if you're a fan of spanks you'll probably say she's awesome but she. She had this idea and she thought it was patentable so she started going to but she wanted into woman patent attorney and so she started asking who is the woman patent attorney in Atlanta. And they said there wasn't one which to me is bizarre but okay okay and so she found out that she could not find a woman to represent her on writing this patent. That was very important or add to be a woman. So what did she do. She didn't didn't know how to do this. She didn't know what to do but she just went to Barnes and noble and found a book on how to ride a patent and wrote her own patent. She just figured it out right. That's that's how we do things I don't know the steps to take is fine if you dreaming big and you don't think you can do this and you don't think thank you have the ability to do this and you don't know the first steps do you take to bake your dream in youth and you're thinking in the back of your head. Who Am I to to do this? Your normal. You're absolutely normal and you're just like all these other people you're just like all these other people that have wildly succeeded cheated. I can go on and on for night for days and talk about the examples and the people I run into daily that are struggling to these issues and many of the of the through it right but the real issue is. What are you dreaming whether starting a company whether it's doing it's something that you haven't done before whether it's I won't take a job and do something else. I WANNA learn how to do something and move into a new role. I want to move to a new city. I want to do something different. What if you knew you couldn't fail? Just think about what if you could not fail. They always ask that question. When you're dreaming? If you could not fail what would you do. What would you think God had your back right? If God was going to give you all the resources that you needed what would you do. If money was not an option doesn't matter how much it cost money's when he's not my issue What would you do if you had the freedom to do anything that you want? Would you do because because the truth is all of those are true. You may fail in some sense but you're not going to fail in the fact that you tried ride God does have your back. I'm a believer in that. You may not talk off line about that. What would you do if money? Money was not an option. Money's never really an option. Money is not the issue. Money is never the issue entrepreneurs for example. Call me up and say I need money for this money's easy money is really really easy most of the time. They don't even need the money. Money's not the problem What if you had the freedom to do anything you wanted to do? What's a weird question? We live in the United States. At least I do and many of you. Do you live in the United States of America the freedom to do whatever you want. Well there's a few laws but don't go there but generally speaking you. You have the freedom to do all kinds of things that's right there at your fingertips. You probably have the freedom to resource the tools to smarts the brains everything you need and the people around you to do. Tremendous things if you so wanted to do them. No you you can let the system defined you you can let the school system tell you what to do. And the hours and days you can spend your hours and days watching youtube videos his or television or commercials I ran into. This guy was working with the other day. He's from Korea. He made the comment to me. I don't don't relate to these people will in the United States because they spent so much time watching football and watching TV and commercials and I Never Watch TV. We don't even have a TV. I don't want to waste my mind like that and I thought that was weird. The culture he comes from. But it's like wow that's different. It's it's different how you said that. I don't want to waste my mind like that interesting. You football fans duct me emails. I'm not a football all fan either but I get it You're you're all Kinda sick on your own way right so remember. You don't have to take the first step but but just notice how nervous you get just when you start dreaming get nervous don't you. It makes you a little shaky notice you think about the possibilities possibilities though you also get a little excited often cautious but excited and sometimes when you start to talk about the idea with somebody else they will either water it and feed it or they'll bury it understand so you'd be careful you talked to but forget forget about taking action right now. That's not important right now. Just dream if I could take all the people that I coach that I work with breath I partner with an industry and just say just stop and think about what do you want. How much more productive will obey? See if they're working in something they dream of doing. How more productive will they be if they wake up with energy to go after here this dream every day instead of barreling themselves out of bed and trying to barrel himself to work to get this stupid meeting? How much more productive would they be? That's why people like Steve Jobs and And and he'll on mosque and these kinds of people they create so many opportunities for people because they're willing to dream and they're willing to chase after but again. Forget about those guys. Think about the people on the corner that are giving people jobs jobs with their business. Think about friends of yours that are stepping out just a little bit to follow their dreams serve other people to create opportunities opportunities for other people. But what about your dream. What kind of things are you going to do? I would love to hear about it and you may think that's crazy but but I when I first started saying this is one of the things you want to do is start feeding yourself and watching what other people get excited about watching watching what other people put their energy into actually gives me energy. I'm always shocked at the kind of crazy things people do. And I'm always in all all of so much of it. That happens and I'm always sad when I see somebody without a dream. Don't let that be you. We'll talk to you next week.

youtube Shakespeare United States facebook Tesla CIO Steve Jobs Elon Musk Google John Smart del Callahan executive Walmart Dylan associate dean shakespeare UAE football
How this developer is helping Indianapolis reclaim economic prosperity | Ep. 65

The ROI Podcast

17:14 min | 2 years ago

How this developer is helping Indianapolis reclaim economic prosperity | Ep. 65

"The city skyline cannot exist without a property to build on a design to construct or a vision to bring to light here in India, thirty city blocks of blank. Canvas space exists on the city's southwest side, ready to welcome development that will last for generations to come, adding another dimension to Indies skyline. So how can commercial real estate companies most effectively create success? Ambrose property group shows us how let's get to the podcast. Welcome to another episode of the podcast presented by the Indian university Kelley school of business. I'm your host Matt Martel alongside associate dean, Phil Powell. If this year first time tuning into the ROI podcast, we are glad to have you. We put out a weekly episode that helps organizations make better business decisions, but those of you who enjoy our show, it would be such an honor to us. If you could head to your favorite podcast app and leave us a review. And finally, if you'd like to get a hold of us Semion Email to ROI pod, that's r. o. p. o. d. at UP dot EDU. So last year, the Indy star released an article that names Indianapolis. The second most resurgent city in the country. The average home price in Indianapolis is just under three hundred ten thousand dollars. That's a twenty percent increase since two thousand twelve. The city has also seen a ten percent. Cent increase in the population and Matt according to our own Kelly school economist professor, Kyle Anderson who does an annual evaluation of the regional Konami and produces an annual forecast Kyle estimates that the growth that you mentioned is generating twenty five thousand new jobs per year. Why? What's driving this growth will first and foremost, we have a low cost of living a dollar goes farther in Indianapolis, pretty much any other place in the country. Second, we have a very dynamic startup sector, especially in the high tech area. Third, Indiana's just a great place to do business, whether it's taxes, whether it's the regulatory environment, infrastructure, all these score really high. So all this is coming together to drive this great growth. And of course, this is happening in this great city, especially in urban core, and we've visually are seen why Indianapolis is number two in terms of being the resurgent urban economy in the United States. So who is front and center of making that happen are real estate developers. It is imperative that they have a vision for how this new city comes together. On this episode. We sat down with the president of Ambrose property group ossified day a Kelly business school grad and a commercial real estate expert who manages an impressive portfolio that includes the old GM stamping plant on the city's west side us if shares the three keys. For his real estate success. We literally started the business in the height of the recession and got it rolling during the height of the recession in two that late two thousand eight, two thousand nine, two thousand ten. And candidly were able to capture some great opportunities in the real estate market at literally the bottom including this building that were sitting in here today we bought in two thousand eleven. I think what differentiates Ambrose has from the beginning as really a cultural mindset to focus on our customers, our employee's everyone that's involved with our business and have a one to one very people focused mindset every day. Every decision we make we, we recognize that there's ups and downs of the economy and. While we've been successful doing business deals during the downturn, we recognize it back in happen. All over will probably happen all over again at some point here in the near future. You know, Matt also is not your typical real estate developer. First of all, he's one of our younger more progressive visionaries here in the city, and this brings new fuel and energy to how the city sees itself growing over one or two generations. Secondly, he's been bold in working with his founders and Ambrose property group to buy this property southwest of downtown. That would be very easy to write off. But like any good leader, he sees a great urban landscape that can really help to city thrive even further as we go into the future decades and as commercial real estate leaders or those looking to get into commercial real estate. The first key to success is it's all about the timing. We've probably made these mistakes too, and I, I hate to boil it down and over simplify. But I think. The two mistakes are probably buying or selling too early or buying or selling too late. But ultimately, real estate is all about timing. And there's a lot of factors like liquidity and capital structure and capital stack and location, a variety of things that maybe impact everything, but I have benefited from incredible timing that I by no means our firm. While we had a hunch, we didn't really know. We just happen to get into the business at the right time. You know, Matt, you mentioned it off mentioned it. It's all about timing, right? Timing is important, but that had to be combined with vision and the purchase of that property by Ambrose. Property group was a combination of those two in what strikes me in office comment is that he appreciates historical legacy of the. Operti this property, this plant employed sixty five hundred people at its peak, and this was a footprint of classic midwest manufacturing close to downtown though sixty five hundred workers went home to sixty five hundred houses on the southwest side of the city fed many more mouths with those paychecks many more folks to school. And in fact, multiple generations worked in that factory. This was the heartbeat of downtown Indianapolis, and it's a big piece of land. It's a hundred and twenty acres just across the river here it's unused as undeveloped that's thirty future city blocks and to be able to look at that piece of property and see beyond what you see now which is an old abandoned manufacturing site. And I'm excited as an Indianapolis residence to see how that comes to fruition. And I want to go back in touch on what. You just said about understanding respecting the history of the property because that in fact is our second key for commercial real estate leaders to succeed is you have to have a deep understanding and respect for the history of the property in which you have obtained with respect to the GM stamping plant. I think we try to recognize an appreciate the history of that side. That site has been primarily in manufacturing employment center for well over one hundred years that that really kind of speaks to us, we think about the families and the generations of people that have worked in that on that site earned eleven and literally there's been generation after generation that's done that I. Learned an acronym along time ago from one of my mentors, and I use it probably daily with someone at some point during the day, and that is s. t. p. c. the people see the properties. I especially used that when we are over analyzing some type of project and going through hundreds of pages of spreadsheets and talking about numbers, and there's a lot of times I'll just say, hey, let's just go get in the car or go walk, go for a walk. Let's go walk down to the GM statement plant. Sometimes I'd rather just go touch it and see it and feel it. And we're, we're in the real estate business and it's a visual business. I heard the saying this morning, that downtown is a state of mind and a lot of ways we are, we're in the people business and we're in the place business. We're in the place making business. And a lot of that is state of mind and is much more subjective than objective. I encourage myself and others to get out, get out of the. Office and explore that state of mind. See the people see the properties. You've got to imagine how this area links to other parts of the city. How're people coming in? What are they doing on the boundaries? What are they doing when they walk in? What is life going to be like in ten, twenty years. You've got to build for that. This is why commercial real estate development take so much skill in so much strategic vision and so much guts, because you've got to be willing to put your money where your mouth is. We're not talking about thousands of dollars. We're talking about billions of dollars. And so this is why real estate developers, especially in the commercial arena are so important for fashioning what a city is gonna look like. And if it doesn't look the right way, if you can't see how people are moving in and out of space and using three dimensions of their existence. It can stall the economic development of the whole region. We're talking about one point, three billion dollars in investment which will translate to two point seven million square feet of residential office, commercial hotel and retail space. And we talked about how the old site the jam stamping plant employed sixty five hundred people. Estimates are that when this comes to life, we're talking about twelve thousand new jobs. So we're doubling the number of jobs and we look at the sectors at this will serve these are the industry's driving the region. And so this gives us room to grow. It gives us a new landscape in which to paint the picture, the fiscal picture of Indianapolis, and this will elevate the neighborhoods in the area round the plant, the former plant. You know when when the as as that plant closed down as people took other jobs in other places in. Moved away the neighborhoods around this area have seen some decline. This will help uplift that. So it's not just this hundred twenty acres. It's the whole part of the city. So when Aasa talks about walking around staying grounded in the details of what this is gonna look like of what what the physical vision is. This is completely transformative for what Indianapolis gonna look like and could be. So once we understand that it's all about timing, we educate ourselves about our property so we can embrace deep respect for our properties history within the city. The third key for commercial real estate success is to involve the community throughout the development process. Now, our goal is to engage with the community, the neighbors other organizations, the public large, and really engage with the community not only in the immediate area, but also throughout the city of Indianapolis. As you mentioned, we feel a huge weight of responsibility on what will. Happen there as you may be, we'll tell GM seeming plant as an enormous project and it's really important project, but a lot of focused, a lot of focus is usually placed on the numbers and the dollars and how big it is and how long it's gonna last and how many square feet it'll be. And I think the moment for me, crystallizes it and gets me candidly, a little sentimental about it is having been born in Indianapolis and raised in Indianapolis, and being Kelly school graduate from Bloomington. It's a really big point of pride to me to be able to be the owner and developer of that and shape twenty five or thirty city blocks of downtown Indianapolis. Having had conversations with folks who live today within eyesight of that property who inherited their home from their parents, and they themselves worked at the GM stamping plant. Their parents worked at the GM stamping plant. Their grandparents worked at the GM stamping plant, and they wanted us to develop it because they wanted to engage with us, and they gave us recommendations of what they thought should go there and they've lived there for their entire lives. So that engagement with people, real people who don't own any part of that development yet they have so much more ownership over at mentally and from a state of mind perspective than I ever will and having that relationship and that encouragement is what what gets me excited and crystallizes. The state of mind as opposed to the physical asset, you know, Matt, it's real easy to look at a project like this through a traditional business Lynn's. The company owns the land. They're going to commercialize it. They're going to build it. They're going to borrow the money to do. It would have this great space and onward. They March. But even though Ambrose property group owns this property. Ossified understands that this is something much bigger than Ambrose property group. He understands that his company has taken on something at the heart of the city, and that ownership really goes beyond the company. It's a spiritual ownership. This is where people worked and lived and it's where new generations will work in live. This is city space. This is where we see each other where we hear each other where we talk to each other when we walk past each other, what we smell each other. And if you don't understand that that this is more than just a business deal, you don't get it. And it's those cities that have a larger mindset in how they approach space that have been very successful. And so when also talks about inviting the community into dialogue, that's real, that's something that has to happen. And at the end of the day, there's going to be people upset. You can't please everybody. There's going to be people upset with. How things move along. But if you invite a community dialogue, especially around those who live around it, especially among those families that had fathers and grandfathers and great grandfathers that worked in that plant, they're going to feel a sense of ownership to dialogue, develops empathy and empathy develops a vision that more people feel like they're part of, and that's just good for a city. That's good for Indianapolis. And so when you hear us talking about that element, that's probably the most important element of the success way beyond the money way beyond the architectural diagrams, it's at fundamental understanding that works spanning this great city and it will touch hundreds of thousands of not millions of people over the next few generations. Let's recap. Ambris property group led by ossified day not only started a successful commercial real estate enterprise in the midst of a terrible recession, but also acquired a major piece of Indianapolis history through the recent purchase of the old GM stamping plant on the city's southwest side through offs real estate journey. He gave us three keys for company success that we as leaders can embrace to better organizations. The first key. It's all about timing, not only was the timing in his favor when he founded Ambrose property group. It was also timing that allowed his company to seal the deal with this old GM plant. It may have taken over eight years and multiple offers, but the timing in which he made them paid off. The second heat is to understand the history of your property and embrace a deep respect for the people who have more of a state of mind, ownership of your land for Asif his property gave generations of families, the jobs necessary for their success. As he works with developers. He constantly reminds himself of that history when he thinks see the people see the city to help better shape the Indianapolis skyline. Finally, the third key is to involve the community inside developmental planning. It's impossible to make everyone happy. However, it's the people who will work on your sites live on your sites and even travel for leisure to your sites, allowing the community to have input under development, gives them a major share in feeling like they owned that property, which in turn, gives them a sense of pride that will one day your company's building inside the minds of families for generations to come. This has been another episode of the ROI podcast presented by the Indian university, telly school of business. I'm your host Matt Martel alongside associate dean, Phil Pol where we work hard to bring you weekly podcasts that help organizations make better business decisions. We'll see you next.

Indianapolis Ambrose property group Matt Martel GM Ambrose Indian university Kelley schoo associate dean Indiana Kelly school India r. o. p. o. d. Phil Powell United States Kelly business school Konami