8 Episode results for "Anouchka Astana"
Hong Kong: the story of one protester
"Entity we are protecting and in opinion the Guardians Poly Toy Mbaye on a queen's speech as often as the rest of the Brexit Saga today months of escalating protests in Hong Kong through the eyes of one protester whose idea I'm happy to stop and yeah young so growing roar of anger in the face of increasingly brutal crackdown he says this is the fight of their lives and they are not giving up okay perfect he remembers an extraordinary sight on that Sunday June the nine one million people filling the streets at the beginning with phase that the Communist Party would prosecute dissidents for political reasons in the beginning of the protests had a single lane to stop a proposed new law that would allow extraditions to mainland China. The audion I'm Anouchka Astana today InFocus eighteen weeks of turmoil in Hong Kong through the eyes of warm protester awesome rubber bullets and sponge birds like thousands of others he has returned to the streets we can we count with the popey because at the since I think twelfth drew behalf a lots of protests everywhere freedom is not free so you have to risk a certain things to fight for what you want what started no mask I'm against anti smoke gas mites there's helmet it wasn't as tense as the protests nap missile the person you're about to hear from has been at the heart of Hong Kong's Pro Democracy protests from day one we're going to change your voice arou- waiver piece of legislation has turned into a battle for the soul of Hong Kong with no apparent end in sight from the aw what were your expectations back then be no I was expecting to have at least a former response from the government Oh pretty much every day when you go out to the streets what do you do do you chant do you hold a placard at a particular things you say sometimes it was peaceful but now is different because now as one it's very tense tickets everywhere to police use countless seen in Kale's they shot tear gas and pepper spray swung batons and fired rubber bullets so then the rot lease led by a small contingent of British offices moved in on scary activity back then I would I would think I would have to freedom of speech freedom of assembly things are very different when you talk about the police and the fear of any and incidents that you can the protesters pushed back with water bottles protected by umbrellas in masks whatever you like to be as protests you like we stop the relation of the of the Vision Award any kind of response innocence but be the police said actually trying as hard as they can to to crack down the protests so pretty much arrests everyone yeah do you remember of that very first protest it was it was quite peaceful meet was it was it was fairly relaxed I would say that's no vandalism describe to me I saw youngsters who were beaten I mean the I mean free armed three so the government said they would proceed with the of the mole how often have you protested since think I would say at least one once or twice do sometimes I though it's very clear that what we are talking about what we are requesting at most of the time these protests are very peaceful by just covering the victim and then all to Saad Muscle policemen came and just sued him who is asking for victims name so that he can get some help from the lawyers or something and the policemen are trying to stop brought to the police station the police actually stopped him from getting a lawyer for a couple of hours have you been had no luckily but so it's a very competitive because in a sense you want to go out to fight for one you won't but on Haniel very afraid because stoskopf very peaceful from the beginning as long as police started to jumping get him onto the bus and they go are had a friend who was arrested he was beating up on scene just coming out and they try to stop the generally from filming taking pictures and we have a social workout oh boy on him on the push him on the floor I mean they pushed the ankles and knees they beat him with batons only light fourteen is beautiful yet staunton you know because these youngsters this because we all knew the public transport or not save at the moment so the police said a lot robots around Hong Kong and search every single bus and if they found is it hard to motivate yourself to go sometimes I mean so much is at stake is a big physical and psychological demand yes I would say so during the office our people I two dozen abutting Hong Kong but he was just standing there protesting but he didn't do any like graffiti setting things on file anything and just looking at the phones looking for news and seeing what's happening you have to keep updating and in the evening you have to go to protests doc sounds like there's an incredible culture of fear that has been created by the police I mean are you scared to tell you ah come morning is very tiring into physically and psychologically and so many people being hurt I mean so many young host anything anything that you can prove that you are at the scene I mean what about your colleagues in the office people afraid to talk out some I'm home safely and I've been doing this for a couple of weeks and I had actually believe that a student Beckham ends your family that you're protesting my family knows about much protest so that's fine in friends on social media we don't dead Mahal today should be a thing that they can really enjoy and now they have to go on the streets and posting a few empty Guzman's comments on his own facebook and they got inside what about facial recognition technology is that frightening people being used by police to track down dissidents this might be serious about the smart lamppost forced to protest for the future happy to Seattle what about when everybody goes back to school all at risk I mean other jobs at risk yes I had a friend who had been fired by his employer because he had been found guilty people's twelve fourteen twelve year olds have you seen twelve year olds on the street yes I did say sometimes I I drove to the protests the world was shocked when a fourteen year old was shot in the thigh by live ammunition and an eighteen year old was fired up by an officer at point blank range trey stations this was savage cornered on Elaine Mo- Violence Plain and simple we've all say seeing violence from narrowly missing his heart but the has been aggression from protesters to this man has move them a pretty scared to talk about the views because some of them just think they support protester the manager will not be happy be being beaten bloody but it's not enough for the protesters some have held rocks bricks and Molotov cocktails targeted police officers and set fire to me rung would you start running your difficult to crash into anybody all on the B. Two ankle anthony that is actually yes it might look like something out of a sci Fi movie laser pointers confused and disable the facial recognition technology and this is the only way we fight back I mean it's not morally correct say but that isn't any kind of way for us to anything doing all sorts of things to pressure to people who the employees not to go to protests and support the government say by protesting people putting because a lot of business in Hong Kong is not funded by the Chinese government funded Chinese business and UH deploying in Hong Kong and to put the protests that actually told one to one of them. I've been lucky that I didn't have a to need to engage with people Barnsley on protesters you can see lots of the this have you ever engaged in violence on objects on people on either Oneida yes on objects do you think people are willing to die for the Kohl's I think so I mean we have young protesters who has the wheel inside their back they will they put it in the back no you have gas masks they would just take in so in Hong Kong people actually drive the private cars in order to pick up the students and to deliver you do they have guns and they have nice and they were trying to to hurts the protesters and and they were trying just to protect themselves watch videos of this incident that had been widely shared online show a taxi plowing into protesters we start with breaking news from Hong Kong the territory's leader Carrie Lam as formally withdrawn that proposed extradition bill it then on the fourth of September Hong Kong protesters' De Support well in the nutshell I don't but to be honest is fully understand what because we have no choice there's been widespread anger with the police at the use of tear gas rubber bullets pepper spray and water cannons and so restore order and safety in Society Carrie Lam gave in on the extradition bill why did you continue to the extradition bill as their first demand but they now want an inquiry into police brutality to no longer be described as riotous an overhaul of Hong Kong's voting of which seven hundred and fifty our children and there has been shift fury the latest move by Carrie Lam administration to invoke sweeping emergency others also show the driver being pulled from his car and violently beaten by some in the crowd has this divided the and we found out a lot of the components system running inside it's really to Chinese Scotland all companies from China in terms of the system of phone call that the formation of the system of the Hong Kong government is now become five months the protest is still stay the full withdrawal ecosystem police force and political administration that autonomy from Beijing is meant to remain in place until twenty forty seven feeling among protesters when Britain handed Hong Kong back to China it was under what was known as One Country Two Systems in which Hong Kong kept an independent excecutive carry lab withdrew the extradition bill I'll foremost priority now is to end violence to save God the rule of law coming tomorrow is GonNa be Taiwan or any other countries says the battle for the soul of Hong Kong so yeah and on human doc young actually ran into a crowd of protest to run into people eleven people were to the Straits why are you still continuing to go out to the streets the exclusion bill was one they'll sturm requests I mean it was the only request was beginning with the ban of face mass but with a fair that a curfew could be next is this about more than the five demands I think file a complaint because these policemen a lot not wearing any identity it don't have the ID numbers they don't have any warrants on them and they wear food put off the Chinese government but I mean you can see how what the government's doing to do people Hongkong is just reassemble attacks everyone inside a train station or trump and the police didn't do anything about it Kong I think so yes this clear line between whether you support the government or not or don't rock seem fourteen minutes after the incidence and it's the same fall for a couple of days ago system and for those who have been detained to be released the charges against them dropped since this began almost two thousand five hundred have been arrested AK- new regulation in the name of prohibition of face covering regulation which is essentially an anti mosque law uh for the world is I think is a fight against a reaching sense in today's Hong Kong conju but after so many events after the cavity off the policemen and what we sink what people think Dow Jio south protesters trying to beat up a person on the streets and some time the media just cut the first part of the reason but I don't think people Hong Kong actually scared off disappear now because we we don't have an not a way government is responding to this by a very very harsh crackdown against protesters I mean Carrie Lam has listen extraordinary situation people are protesting as you say before work during the day after work people like yourselves going out twice a week the dictatorship isn't it because caroline can do whatever she wants them power under the emergency regulations ordinance and wearing masks by itself is also a personal freedom so to abandon this makes Hong Kong people even more angry in freedom need to go back to nine thousand nine hundred eleven to understand the depth resuls people are not going to believe in anything that the government is going to say he's doing the future aren't people scared of the power of China because ultimately isn't it the Chinese government in a way that they're taking on yeah has tried to bury that narrative sense there was confusion and despair among those who could hardly credit that own army was firing wildly at the what do you think of China's role in all of this Charalambos d line anything about that she is been heard and leaked audio saying she'd quit if she wasn't trying to serve two masters choice paint is to create of how this government is being formed or lectured a run actually so is a total breakdown not even the government even the this weekend the Chinese President Xi Jinping warned that anyone attempting to split China would ending crushed bodies and shattered bones the US is facing a huge backlash from US lawmakers for its reaction to this tweet by the Houston Rockets general manager a tweet backing pro democracy demonstration national community be doing I would say the people homecoming neat everyone's help from the international community I mean the people of Hong Kong America stands with you an America Wall always support you the NBA and the National Basketball Association or NBA we have rich and then we we educated we we do a lot of good things but not at all this is the true face the comments were made during a meeting with the Prime Minister of Nepal but many have taken it as a chilling warning to protest us in Hong Kong what should the does that give you pause for thought no not really I think this is executive reason why we say harder because for two years ago official mosque twenty-first obstacle we had the attention to walks into bone off moving on because we have lost so much already maybe it's the Anti Mosque law just is this is the beginning of Hey I think the government hung up to people Cohn Cohn don't have faith in the government and also in the system the the most thirty years ago people try to rise up against the Chinese government and it was so violently quashed that the government we remembered Tiananmen Square troops have been firing indiscriminately still thousands of people on the streets how do you think monster protests have eroded Hong Kongers faith in the government but also in society Dat solids the ads so brutally violently on their own people on the next generation of people university students they tried to do a lot of things in order to put it for sought on the e face I mean say that Chinese is different now everything but now it's time to show the world how evil the CC can be how evil be has remained it to be because recon get much sleep just want to check if anyone is hurt the wants to check out if a friend there was an incident there wasn't pressed cameras so nothing can be proved that the CPI is that brutal on was a treaty signed by Britain and signed by China in good faith and it goes on until twenty four hundred forty seven it gives us every right to ah taken your life I mean this is a constant and regular thing to you I mean has it totally changed the way that you love your life these couple of months yes is right here in Hong Kong are heard similar things from the UK side and to be honest I think the
The strange world of TikTok: viral videos and Chinese censorship
"Lecomte a why gossip matters in politics whoa today we discussed claims of censorship on the viral video app take talk and journalist Marie now questions have been raised about its ethics after the Guardian reveal that the company sensit- videos that might upset the Chinese government from the Guardian generally described as the world's largest stop it's a very young company with evaluation somewhere in the order of seventy five billion dollars by dogs made take talk Alex hearn UK technology editor for The Guardian. This is where I start with my granny question if you're over twenty five you're probably not on it but this social media giant is now thought to be bigger than twitter and the latest is tick Tock and how it moderates its enormously successful viral short video app it's what west to try and export some of the success had within China to the rest of the world how big is big how does it compare to say other social media sites it's take talk in the West and Koldo Yen in China which translates vaguely into sort of buzzing noise and all about appear just like take talk very large in around twenty sixteen in two thousand seventeen letting largely teen uses film selves Lip synching to Music Within snapchat last week comments by facebook. CEO Mark Zuckerberg admitting that Tick Tock is a growing competitor will lead to the media and I'm Anouchka Astana today infocus what's really going on with take talk the biggest one that's not owned by facebook facebook has more uses than anyone instagram is next but he's also facebook and then they take talk the company claims downloaded it going to be able to lip sync famous oils you will if you want to show me tell me just older even than that reference making sense it's an out the less you share fifteen second long videos the has somewhere in the order of half a billion users worldwide bank if your age of the Internet you can think of it as vine for Gen Z. Broom brew if you're and then take took arrive until talk is one up made by Chinese companies will bite dance which is take me about Dick dark so tick tock is the merger of a Chinese companies are up enormously successful short viral Video App Oh yeah you got game on your phone you gotta so what you'll dust aw had attributed to it five hundred million active users I'm getting to be honest I'm not a regular tick tock us neither am I say a younger children are allowed to use it these days they have to use a restricted account that hasn't always been the case in tech talks had some heat for it and do you get followers in the same way as insular amongst US base it's teens talking to teens PSA guys if you didn't know already I got new teeth so if you're ready to date me that you find on facebook or instagram where will artificially promote videos that are doing very well it will hide visit things boring but this fetus is and a western suburb of Onomatopoeia. Tick Tock Tick Tock Buzz Buzz bows but it's a merger between the Chinese and an American uncle musically musically ah because it just shows you grids if you scroll down the field you'll find that roughly what you have is about a third incredible short-form web comedy like that Aw let's talk business it says you have to be over twelve to use an you're talking about teens is not its audience or do we know whether younger children are using it as well committee and a third kind of teen thirst drops just like instagram influences new third absolutely screw in jokes are only funny to other teens the I just don't get three weeks into it to a certain extent you can buy users right you can't buy sustainable long lasting use but if you run enough ads are you to tell when you post something whether it's going to do well or not but the flip side of that is as a viewer you don't need to do any work you don't need to track down the good accounts you don't need to eighty one of the things that take influences complain about in fact is that the earth is completely inscrutable there's there's no is frankly unbelievable that it's revenue could exceed its costs at this point by dancers in it for the long game they don't need to turn a profit for years it's really boring to talk show people most videos made by most people will not be seen by very many people including their followers take talk we'll show it to get curiosity clicks and that's where a lot of those users came from someone that Yousef Shady advertising a piece in the New Yorker recently quoted one tick tock employees ten or so people and then if none of the watch all the way through it will just stop showing social media expert to it is it is sneaking hey hey tony Parton I really want to start thinking I'm really bad risk is lost down the line and they're clearly trying to lay that groundwork and if it's all about people going viral and they have to be really good to go viral does that mean we're getting massive stars saying that they were really uncomfortable with the adverts that Tick Tock Ryan on instagram which were showing basically just incredibly basic shocking content anything to get us up to eleven it's far far more aggressive at showing you stuff that thinks will go viral and far far more aggressive at hiding stuff that it thinks is a bit crap if I make a video the APP and something that I feel is actually bit creepy to be on if you're over about twenty five the user basis so young and it's so a bit of an odd thing that our modern world has and take talks come under a lot of criticism from organizations like the NSA PCC for failing to really protect those underage Jesus out of it like we have done with you cheap the most famous start come from tech talk has been this is no good radio. Et's both pretty women who are famous impact for being pretty women it's just take talk they are fifteen hundred sixteen and if you're an adult that's I mean if your child is still one of those you do get followers but they are far less important on talk radio or another platforms because tick tock uses a sort of Algorithm mcphee to that it come from tick tock in the same way as we'd expect because of that music alley roots become incredibly influential in music particularly to pop birth mother the penalty the Policy Click through not bait click exactly and is it making money is the big question is a private companies that we have no right to know it's making revenue it's certainly got income but it is in America that came in the form of a fine from the Federal Trade Commission tick talk the FTC alleged and find talk for knowingly collecting Nice that's not uncommon for the Internet one of the problems that companies like to talk on Snapchat facebook and Instagram her faced is that prohibit personal data from users showed off or did know while under thirteen the age limit set by the American Children's Online Privacy Protection Act it obviously has had a lot of attention from critics identify. PC can someone who is under twelve just say they're twelve rubber checks in place there are no checks and so the biggest fair intech talk was the company seemed at best have a layer with its approach to the safety of it's Pretty Young Fund base put that to one side they're white questions about the protection of children and more traditional social networking senses young girls have reported that is not a unique problem for tick tock every social network has it but because tick tock is seen as such a place for children to speak to children into teams and the most obvious example is Luna Sex who song all Tom Road holds the record for the longest number one billboard single in history the same posing with a pistol hanging out on train tracks and trying to fit three people one bike the Indian government responded by banning that temporarily until take is a night cream I'm just GonNa take talk is huge we're UK do not have any real digital identity it's not clear what sort of proof you could require mostly you need to just rely honesty a lot we've had we've had some of the bad tell me about the ugly does take talk have a dark side to talk has several dogs sides for awhile out of grooming behavior happens on talk it is an APP which is focused on posting videos of yourself so it is fairly easy for adult men to find young women to contact facebook but certainly a lot more than facebook had when it was two years old which brings us to your recent chiefs all kids recreating pranks or doing video stunts essentially it's one Through you would be a thirteen year old that really does set the ball quite life God and anything else one of the places where Tick Tock has had the most appropriate content effectively goes against Chinese foreign policy popular APP Tick Tock maybe censoring information about protests in Hong Kong is that you can tell that take a Chinese company because all through the motivation guidelines are requirements on the moderators to remove find your friends on it you just open it up and all the very first thing on it is the four you feed which is completely Mickley but I would like cylinder stories let's start with the first one what did you show so we received moderation guidelines from moderator who along to that was how it spread most people you'd heard him first month of its life it only ever heard fifteen seconds of it because that's how you get to lip sync auto national history of which the town square incident was just one and it is groups organizations that promote suicide that led to Falun Gong being banned takeaway define tick Tock promise to institute a restricted mode for those younger users that meant basically they were locked into only viewing videos couldn't post and that seems to be independence of provinces that was banned not purely Tibet you also can advocate for Northern Irish independence it was topics that demonize or which that made it sound like they were general rules of which the Chinese examples would just one so it was controversial political topics such is to get its affairs in order did it get as in order enough to be allowed back into India at least one of the things the now bonds absolutely as part of its moderation guide the mass protests no to be clear the version the moderation guidelines we've seen didn't mention Hong Kong once but also has taught us later the verge of moderation guidelines we've seen ask you to enter your age start with either blank box or box set to today's date Tick Tock started with a box set to the age of thirty seven just clicked all of these things were buried in the documents and played into something that we'd already suspected which is that tick tock even though it doesn't operate in China was still being used to advance Chinese aims basically it sounds like they were exporting Chinese censorship pretty much the most obvious external version that was during the Hong Kong protests I think I've never posted on top myself realized guidelines created in conjunction with local users and local moderators the implication being that they wouldn't care as much about censoring things that China didn't the Guardian because they were uncomfortable with what the moderation required them to do the most obvious thing when reading them for the first time right like a search for snail would reveal three million it was clear that something was up and that the APP was being censored what three videos not not mass protests and India third of April Madras High Coordinator Responding to be I'll take talk should be banned in India where three deaths have been attributed to it deaths lines is essentially any content arches dangerous behavior and he moderates that Tick Tock has a Lotta moderators it has summer nuder ten thousand which is few of them Shaw but we do have an idea of what it could be based on a second set of documents that we got the documents that were applied in UK until May when a search for Hong Kong would frequently reveal sort of three videos on the whole guidelines are basically the same as the least ones but have extra rules about basically what women can wear on talk and the Turkey specific ones the things that you get in a Faro hit driven video outright people wanted to post the most engaging content they can in in this case meant that all incredibly culturally conservative you're not allowed to express support for gay rights you're not allowed to have a pride flag video you're not allowed to drinking alcohol suggests that something is still going on post the guidelines and yet wasn't talks response to you that you'll guidelines out today it was tick Tock said that the company called it's loose guidelines with received two other sets of moderation documents these strict guidelines and said country specific guidelines for Turkey the streets and I saw it I am going to donate it down right at night what do you do I shen it wants to be as they put it sort of a joyful social network recreationally occurs and they seem to decided the way to do that is just too the facts of this moderation is you can't tell that is happening even when you are being moderated tick talks overwhelming moderating tool isn't to block anything that has the whiff of controversy what you're telling me Alex is wild I mean this is a social media amp there is given twitter bigger than snapchat teenagers all over the world are using it and that sounds like massive censorship on the scale but we would never see presumed the lines were ended in May that they were the product of a young company that didn't understand what it was doing much and then there are moving to a system of more rules about what you can post stuff Rutta took which basically nothing dopos videos of Turkey founding father some rules about Kurdish separatism but others are just rules in a country where around eighty percent of the country's teetotal but alcohol is completely legal you're not even allowed to have pictures of statues of Jesus it suggests that Walter talk may once it starts localising its guidelines step back from the China specifics censorship it's not gonNA stop the white thing which is massively erring on the side of the Mike in the UK and if they're saying they've moved to a more localized model do we know what type of decisions making in different countries we don't whether you've had that content taken down because it violated the rules or does not shown to anyone because the algorithm didn't like it and that means that we we simply have no way of knowing for away anything like facebook or instagram the presumably is really important that because remember what I was saying about the algorithm earlier one of the more insidious a to Tibetan or Taiwanese independence content related to Falun Gong banned religious sect all of those requirements for couched in language out of date we've got new guidelines but we're not going to tell you what they are they're all reasons for not sharing the specifics of this sort of thing one thing that twitter and facebook of learned is you were pulled in May replaced with a new set which we haven't seen so it's not surprising that they didn't mention anything about the Hong Kong protests because they hadn't started in May but that's interesting on the APP is owned by the Chinese company Bite dance they had to remove content that related to the gentleman squirts between the four thousand nine hundred nine content that I am worried about the fact that take talk really sincerely think believes that it's not the place for eat content it's democratise visible to self so you don't see it it's gone it's still remains on your feed it just doesn't get shown to anyone so you have no way of knowing as a tick Tock mation about the processes within talk and having seen information about the processes within other companies how worried are you overly specific about the guidelines you get people going exactly up to the edge the straight versions of the Tick Tock guidelines for instance say that you can't show too much cleavage the right line and ends up being a bit self defeating at the same time I think you do need is transparency about what you take down you don't need to say precisely how it broke cleavage exactly one third of the total length of the cleavage it's ridiculous but if you're going to have a systematic attempt to control Yes yes absolutely I think it would be very proud to say sort of the social networks are filled with angry shouting about brexit we have fun videos set Denali Partners Act centrally coming up what role does gossip play in politics the rule but you do need say we've removed this content not leave people continually guessing as to whether they've been censored having been leaked Tito's responded by saying look the guidelines you're talking about someone without informing the user but unlike take
The strange world of TikTok: a look back
"Christmas way revisiting. Some of our favorite today in focus stories and I absolutely loved speaking to our UK. Technology editor talk. Alex hearn back in October about the video platform Tech Talk. Even if it did make me feel a old. This is definitely a social media site more more aimed at teenagers across the world. And it's hot. Some controversies. Do listen through to the end because Alex will be back with an update. Alex you back. Just keep hell He. Just keep knocking out the park with these exclusive stories. What's the latest the latest is tick talk and how it moderates its enormously successful viral short video radio APP? It's what it's enormously successful shaw viral video APP. How yeah you got game on your you gotta teach you dusty? Where's your mother? The penalty the bank. If you're of a certain age of the Internet you can think of as vine for Gen Z. Aw Broom if you're older even than that reference making sense it's not the less you share fifteen second videos the has somewhere in the order of half a a billion users worldwide. Whatever brand tick tock is huge? If you're over twenty five you're probably not on it but this social media giant it is now thought to be bigger than twitter. I'm bigger than snapchat last week comments by facebook. CEO Mark Zuckerberg admitting that Tick Tock is a growing competitor. Editor will lead to the media. Now questions have been raised about its ethics after the Guardian revealed that the company censored videos that might upset the Chinese government from the Guardian. I'm Anouchka Astana today and focus. What's really going on with tech? Talk Alex hearn. UK technology editor for The Guardian. This is where I start dot with my granny quest dental me about Dick talk so tick tock is the merger of a a Chinese companies are up. Could take talk in the West uncle dough yen in China which translates vaguely into sort of buzzing noise And all about two pm just like talk And a Western. Onomatopoeia Onomatopoeia. Tick Tock Tick Buzz. Buzz Vos but it's a merger between the Chinese is up and an American uncle musically musically go very large in around twenty sixteen and twenty seventeen letting largely teen uses film film selves Lip synching to music. And then take her up and take talk is one made by. Why is Chinese companies will bite dance which is generally described as the world's largest stop? It's a very young company with evaluation. Somewhere in the order of seventy five billion dollars by dogs made talk in the west to try and export some success they'd had within China to the rest of the world. How big is big? How does it compare to say I of a social media sites? It's probably the biggest one that's not owned by facebook. FACEBOOK has more uses than anyone. INSTAGRAM is next but is also facebook and then this tick tock the company claims or has had attributed to it five hundred million active users. I'm getting to be honest. I'm not a regular take talkies as it only say we'll have downloaded it going to be able to lola lip sync famous oils. You will if you want to show me. Tell me just okay there. We go totally really want to start thinking. I'm really bad. The risk is lost so right. This is no good radio. It is both fascinating APP. And something that I feel is actually bit creepy to be on your over about twenty five the US bases so oh young and it's so insular amongst US base. It's teens talking to teens. PSA guys if he didn't know already again. Yeah not so if you're ready to date me now let's talk business. It says you have to be over twelve to us and you're talking about teens is that its this audience or do we know whether young children using it as well. Younger children are allowed to use it these days. They have to use a restricted count. The hasn't always been the case and take talks had some heat for it and get followers in the same way as you do one of those you do get followers but there are far less important on talk or another platforms because take talk uses a similar sort of Algorithm mcphee to that that you find on facebook or instagram where it will artificially promote videos that are doing very well it will hide visited it. Things are boring but this fetus is turned up to eleven. It's far far more aggressive. At showing you stuff that things will go viral and former aggressive hiding stuff that it thinks is a bit crap if I make a video and it's really boring. Take talk show people. Most videos made by most people will not be seen by very many people title including their followers. Take Talk. We'll show it to ten or so people and then if none of them watch it all the way through it will just stop sharing social media expert. Ter- It is it. It is sneaking heavy like a Chevy little coupons one of the things that take influences complain about in fact is that the algorithm rhythm is completely inscrutable. There's there's no way to tell when you post something whether it's going to do well or not. But the flip side of that is as a viewer. You don't need to do any work. You don't need to track down the good accounts you don't need to find your friends on it. You just open it up on the very first thing on it is the four you feed which is completely the algorithms but I would like Sylvia is like that because it just shows you grivas unlike if you scroll down the field you'll find that roughly what you have is about a third incredible short-form web comedy that absolutely inscrutable in jokes are only two other teens. I just don't get singly. Three weeks and a third kind of teen thirst trump's just like instagram influences. They're pretty women who will famous sort of impact for being pretty women. It's just take their fifty hundred sixteen and if you're in adult that's con. I mean if your child is still a bit of an old thing that Manuel House and take talks. Come under a lot of criticism from organizations like SPEC- for failing failing to really protect those Andre. Jesus get get same myself. They ploughed money into it to a certain extent. You can buy users right. You can't buy sustainable long lasting use. Yes but if you run enough ads you get curiosity clicks. And that's where a lot of those users came from. Some of that is sort of shady advertising a piece in the new gawker recently quoted. One tick employees saying that they were really uncomfortable with the adverts that Tick Tock Ryan on instagram which were showing basically just incredibly basic basic shocking content. Anything to get uses to click through not bait plagued by exactly and is it making money. The question is a private company so we have no right to know it's making revenue. It's certainly got income but it is frankly unbelievable that it's revenue could exceed. Its costs at this point by dancers in it for the long game. They don't need to turn a profit for years down the line and they're clearly trying to lay the groundwork and if it's all about people going viral and they have to be really good to go viral. So does that mean we're getting massive stars out of it like we have done with the most famous start. Come from talk. Didn't really come from talk in the same way as we'd expect because of that musically route becoming credibly influential in music particularly pop aimed at teams and the most obvious example that is little narcotics. Who Song Old Town road holds the record for the longest? The number one billboard single in history is my idea black Mateo. They became a very popular to lip sync along to that was how it spread knows people. You'd heard it. In the first month of its life. It only ever heard fifteen seconds on it because because that's how long you get to lifting. I'm inside I am going to down late at night through high to would it do you do I lip sync excellent. I've never posted on top myself. We've had we've had some of the bad tell me about. The ugly does take talk. Have a dark side. tedtalk has several duck sides. For while the biggest guarantee talk was the company seemed at best cavalier with its approach to the safety of. It's pretty young fun base in America that came in the form of a fine from the Federal Trade Commission tick talk the FTC alleged and find talk doc four knowingly collecting prohibited personal data from uses showed have or did no well under thirteen the age limit set by the American Children's Online Privacy Protection Act ticked to find talk promise to institute a restricted mode for those younger uses. That meant basically. They were locked into only viewing videos. Could Post and that seems to put that to one side. They're a wider questions about the protection of children and more traditional social networking senses. Ince's young girls have reported a lot of grooming. Behavior happens on talk. It is an APP which is focused on posting videos of yourself so it is fairly easy. I don't mean to find young women to contact. That is not unique problem for tick tock every social network has it but because tick tock his seen such a place for children to speak to children. It obviously has had a lot of attention from critics lie Dennis. PC can someone who is under twelve. Just say they're over twelve Robert Jackson place. There are no checks in place. That's not uncommon for the Internet. One of the problems that companies like talk on Snapchat Gotcha on facebook and instagram. Her faced is that we're in the UK do not have any real digital identity. It's not clear what sort of proof you could require mostly so you need to just rely on honesty a lot of forms ask you to enter your age start with either a blank box or a box set to today's date and then he feels one of the places where they had the most. I Pro India toward of April Madras high coordinated responding to a big talk should be banned in India where three deaths deaths have been attributed to it deaths all kids recreating pranks or doing video stunts. Essentially essentially it's one of the things that you get in a Faro hit driven video right. People want to post the most engaging content. They Dan in in this case meant posing with a pistol hanging out on train tracks and trying to fit three people at one bike. The Indian government responded by banning the APP temporarily until Take Promise to get its affairs in order. Did it get as in order enough to be allowed back into India. At least one of the things the now bonds absolutely as part of his motivation guidelines is essentially any content that encourages dangerous behavior. And he moderates not take talk has a lot of moderators. It has somewhere in the order. Ten thousand thousand which is few facebook but certainly a lot more than facebook had when it was two years old which brings us to your recent exclusive stories. Let's start with the first one. What did you show so? We received moderation guidelines Froma Chroma Tick Tock moderator who leaked to the Guardian because they were uncomfortable with what the moderation required them to do the most obvious thing thing when reading them for the first time is that you can tell that tick tock as a Chinese company because all through the motivation guidelines are requirements climates on the moderators to remove content. That effectively goes against Chinese foreign policy. The Popular App Tick Tock maybe censoring offering information about protests in Hong Kong. The APP is owned by the Chinese company. BAIJU DANCE I had to remove content that related to the gentleman squirts between the fourth of nine hundred thousand nine content related to Tibetan or Taiwanese independence content the related to Falun Gong banned religious sect all of those requirements for couched in language. That made it sound like they were general rules of which the Chinese examples would just one so it was controversial versus political topics such as independence of provinces. That was banned not purely Tibet. You also could advocate for Northern Irish independence. It was those topics that demonize or distort national history of which the town square and it was just one and it is groups organizations that promote suicide that that led to Falun Gong being banned. All of these things were buried in the documents and played into something that already suspected. which is that Tick Tock? Even though it doesn't operate right in China was still being used to advance Chinese aims. Basically it sounds like they were exporting Chinese censorship. Pretty much the most obvious external version. That doc was during the Hong Kong protests when a search for Hong Kong would frequently reveals sort of three videos on the whole site like a search for snail would reveal three million. It was clear that something was up and that the APP was being censored. What were the three video? He's not not mass protests and mass protests no to be clear the version the moderation guidelines. We've seen didn't mention Hong wants but also as tall us later to the verge of moderation guidelines we've seen were polled in May and replaced with a new set which we haven't seen so surprising that they didn't mention anything about the Hong Kong protests. Because they they hadn't started in May but that's interesting because that suggests that something is still going on post the guidelines and yet wasn't ticked talks response to year that you'll guidelines out. Today it was tick Tock said that the guidelines were ended in May that they were a product of a young company. That didn't understand what it was doing. As much and they'll move into a system of more localized guidelines created in conjunction with local users and local moderators. The implication being that they wouldn't carries much about censoring things that China didn't like in the UK and if they're saying they've moved to a more localized model. Do we know what type of decisions they're making in different different countries. We don't know for sure but we do have an idea of what could be based on a second set of documents that we got the documents that were applied in the UK until may well what company called. It's loose guidelines was received two other sets of moderation documents these strict guidelines and set of country specific perfect guidelines for Turkey the strict guidelines basically the same as the least ones but have extra rules about basically what women can wear on Tek dunk and the Turkey specific ones rules about what you can post must've ratatouille which basically nothing dopos videos of Turkey. founding father some rules about cutter separatism tatum but others are just rules. That are incredibly culturally conservative. You're not allowed to express support for gay rights. You're not allowed to have a pride flag. In the video you're not allowed to depict drinking alcohol in a country where around eighty percent of the country's teetotal but alcohol is completely illegal. You not even allowed to have pictures of statues of Jesus. It suggests that while talk may once it starts localising its guidelines step back from the China specific censorship. It's not gonNA stop the white a thing which is massively airing on the side of caution it wants to be as they put it sort of a joyful social network creativity occurs and they seem to decided the way to do that is just to block anything. That has the whiff of controversy. What you're telling me Alex is wild? I mean this is a social oh media amp the is bigger than twitter bigger than snapchat teenagers. All over the world are using it and that sounds like massive censorship on the scale L.. But we would never say presumably anything like facebook or instagram. The presumably is really important. That because remember what I was saying about the algorithm earlier one of the more insidious facts of this moderation is. You can't tell that is happening even when you are being moderated tick talks overwhelming thing. Moderating tool isn't to delete content it's democratise visible to self so you don't see it. It's gone it still remains on your feed. It just doesn't get shown to anyone so you have no way of knowing as a tick Tock user whether you've had that content taken down because it violated the rules or does not shown because the algorithm didn't like it and that means that we we simply have no way of knowing for sure what isn't isn't bound on tick tock twitter does have a process referred to his chateau banning there are certain types of continent certain types. It's a behavior where it does take action without informing the user but unlike ticked off. That's not the default policy. The default policy twitter facebook is to take down infringing content and tell abusers been taken down. Took responded by saying look the guidelines you're talking about a somewhat out of date we've got new guidelines but we're not going to tell you what they are. They're all reasons for not sharing the specifics of this sort of thing. One thing that twitter and facebook has learned is overly specific about the guidelines. You get people going exactly up to the edge the strict versions of the Tick Tock guidelines for instance. Say No. You can't show too much cleavage. How much cleavage? Exactly one third of the total length of the cleavage. It's ridiculous but if you're going to have a systematic attempt to control what women wear in east to be systematic and you need to have those descriptions but it's very obvious that if those descriptions get out you've see people start to measure the amount of cleavage. They showed a state just on the right line and ends up being a bit self defeating at the same time I think you do need is transparency about what you take down. You don't don't need to say precisely how it broke the rule but you didn't say we've removed content not leave. People continually guessing as to whether they've been censored censored or just Arabic crop making video having been leaked this information about the processes within talk and having seen information about the processes within other tech companies. How worried are you? I am worried about the fact that take talk really sincerely. I think believes that. It's not the place for controversy or dissent or politics. Obviously Ah that day one involved using very Chinese definition of dissenting politics and involved mentioning Tiananmen Square Tibetan independence. But I sort of believe them. That's not overall goal. That's something that was grandfathered in because of the history and I might even believe. They've removed that from their of real real policies today. Because I think the important point is that they think there is such a thing as sort of art and culture without politics and descent doc the fundamental difference. I think between talk and a company like facebook and twitter if you have a system where people can communicate. It's going to need to allow for political discussion. It's going to need to allow for controversy. That was Alexan- the Guardians. UK Technology editor Sir. Do you read his brilliant exclusives on the website for both of them. He went to bite dance. Which said guidelines had been leaked have been replaced may admitting admitting that in Tick Tock early days we talk a blunt approach to minimize conflict on the platform and our moderation guidelines allow penalties to be given the things like content that promoted conflict? They said they now knew. This was not the correct approach and that future guidelines would be drawn up by local teams rather than sat centrally coming up Alex's back to tell us about a busy few months talk Alex welcome welcome back. Thank you for having me back so we spoke about T- talking October any updates just a few probably. The most prominent aspect of talk in the news was another censorship allegation. This time when a video went viral on the site of a seventeen year old American girl wonderfully beginning an eyelash carling tutorial before immediately launching into an explanation of what's happening in the Shaun King region of China. Is I teach you guys how to get long. Lashes ashes for the first thing you need to do is grab your lash cost you your new apply them to eyelashes and put them down and use your phone using right now to search up what's happening in China how they're getting concentration camps during innocent Muslims in their use the form of tick tock against itself against its owners and she was probably locked out of her account. These news tech talk insisted that she was locked out for a separate translation. She'd made almost a month before when she made a joke video that ended with an image of bin Laden had been knocked out of that account and made a new account. The new account was canceled ten days after she made it which just happened to be. When this extremely critical video had just gone viral on Tick Tock and from other platforms some more questions about censorship more questions about censorship and there was the fact that Tick Tock has just admitted that been censoring videos by I typically users disabled users and users with facial disfigurements in a misguided attempt to prevent bullying on the platform by limiting spread? There's the fact that tick talk under investigation by in American Committee which investigates for an ownership and that may force bite dance companies Chinese owner to spin it off entirely there are national security fears over the tick by members of the American armed forces. And there's a claim by Senator Marco. Rubio that a facial recognition featuring doyenne. Oh yes the Chinese equivalent of talk may come to America and would involve building a biometric database of all citizens faces just a bit then. I guess what we've got today is key reading your copay. Oh pay at the GUARDIAN DOT COM to keep up onto talk absolutely. Do Go to the website to read Alex reporting on Tick Tock my thanks thanks to him. This episode was produced by Hanna. More sound design was by Axel Kukuchi. The update was mixed by Ian Chambers and are executive producers. Uncalled Jackson and Phil Menard. We'll be back tomorrow.
The assassination of Qassem Suleimani podcast
"In today s correlating tensions in the Middle East after the US. Assassination head of Iran's most powerful general and the Golden Globes. Get political the in the early hours of Friday morning a US air strike at Baghdad apple targeted. I killed an Iranian General General Qasim Sulejmani. Thank you very much and good afternoon. As president my highest the solemn duty is the defence of our nation and its citizens last night at my direction. The United States military successfully executed a flawless precision. Strike that killed a number one terrorist anywhere in the World Qasim salomone. I think there's no doubt that this is the biggest. US SCOPE since Osama bin Laden in May two thousand eleven but it is far more strategically significant significant than Bin. Laden's killing Qassem. Suleimani was the most powerful person in the Middle East. His influence strode the continent. He had shaped to phase in Syria. He had shaped the war in Iraq. He was extremely influential in Lebanon and his tentacles extended to Yemen. I answered this question that He was the most influential person in the region and to assess an item is a defining moment a defining moment that has already led to threats and recrimination 's with troops on notice demobilize and US allies urging restraint in the four days since the assassination. Iran has vowed to take revenge with chance of death to America in the country's parliament. Donald Trump tweeted that if Iran strikes any American or American asset than list of fifty two Iranian targets including important. Cultural sites will be hit very fast. I'm very hard from the Guardian. I'm Anouchka Astana today today. In focus the assassination of Qassam Suleimani. On what comes next what we do know that around to I am a plane from. Damascus landed in Baghdad and on that plane was custom cinema near the Iranian Journal. Martin Chew Up. Is the Guardians Middle East correspondent. That were met at the bottom of the plane By a welcoming party they got into to cause a Honda and Toyota and I would take him to the VIP which was fitting to their status state of short time drunk drunk. Some tea and set off in towards central Baghdad. Hadn't got more than fifteen hundred meters along the road out of the airports when they were attacked by an American drone which fide multiple missiles through the roofs of of both cars killing all of those inside including sort of money. What do we know about where Adams Sulejmani came from He? He came from a poor family and city. cordray born in eastern Iran He wasn't educated. He he left school at the age of thirteen and he was forced to work to to pay his father's debts to to the government of the shower at the time And by the time the monarchy fell in nineteen seventy nine he became very committed to the clerical rule of Isotoner Kamani. It's not exactly clear. What an Islamic republic would mean for Iran until relations wins with the West? Many here sit in simple terms. As a return to traditional Justice and strict morality what Khameini Most Frequently Condemns Dams It's foreign influence at. He joined the Revolutionary Guards which is the most significant of the Iranian military. He played a significant role wrong in the Iran. Iraq war as a as a young officer or a lot of combat He commanded small units at the Times junior officer then but but he earned his status on the battlefield and by the end of the war hit become known as somebody who was committed to the goals of the of the Islamic Revolution and was prepared to devote his life to a cause of zeal. So from being a child he was instilled with this revolutionary. Spirit this commitment to the new Iranian Islamic government ever since his father got on the wrong side of the previous leader. Who'd been more secular? How did that zeal show itself? The goals of the Islamic Revolution in nineteen seventy nine nine. Were to export their values particularly into these Sunni Arab world into the neighboring states There are organizations formed within the structure of the Iranian rainy in government to advance those goals and the coulds force of the revolutionary. Guards was the main vehicle now Qassams Ninety Ninety one the trust of the clerics and he was given the task to lead the Kurds force in nineteen ninety eight and he held that position for twenty one years until his death and his job was to find strategic avenues for round two project influence particularly into Iraq and into Syria and end with the has blur in Lebanon remaining the most important arm of Iran's foreign policy projection. So the overarching goal was to somehow somehow for my I direct line from Tehran to the borders of Israel. And that's certainly what he'd been working on in the last five to ten years in particular NCUA. Do we know whether he had a taste for conflict. I mean had he become ruthless. Some of those who observed Slovenia over the years did suggest that he had become conditioned to blood somebody who saw reverting to voluntary quickly As as an an obvious solution mission to to most problems others said that he was a sophomore gentle type who was capable of compassion and mercy at certainly not the. What's so those in Syria would say where he was responsible for the Leading the fought back on behalf of the simulator the Charlotte against the civilian civilian population. That rise up against him and those in Iraq have dealt with him say that he was a particularly rufus man when he needed to be he was somebody who struck fear and loathing breathing in too many of those that he met an justifying the assassination donald trump said Sulejmani was responsible for the deaths of millions. Most people aren't Suggesting that scale but does he have blood on his hands. The certainly a consensus that he has a little blood on his hands that he has been central to all Oregonian activities in the region for particularly the last fifteen years but going back as far as twenty years. He's respected as an enemy. He certainly wasn't seen. There's someone who is deluded or crazy but he was seen as somebody who was irreconcilable ruthless and who changed the course of the of the region. Okay not crazy but do we know what he was like to deal with. He certainly wasn't a man who rented and raved. He had a quiet steely presence to him. Didn't speak collage in meetings. Didn't need to. Because he brought such power and ages with him he wasn't a big man stature but if he didn't like your like what was during on There would be silence. You've described a person with huge power across the Middle East projecting Iranian interests across the region with direct. Tim fluence over neighboring governments but it was after the invasion of Iraq in two thousand and three that we really saw him become. An enemy of the United States is no question that Qasim soon mania in his proxies in Iraq Not so much the good source directly but She she militias who had risen was an up in his name where responsible for roughly a quarter of. US battle casualties They had developed by two thousand thousand seven some various advanced weapons which were put aside of the road and why able to penetrate Yama of the most sophisticated. US vehicles and they did a lot of damage to the US. Convoys that were that were driving past For the next two or three years news out of Iraq where they are reports of a mortar round being fired close to the high security Green Zone in Baghdad added rocket attacks on the Green Zone in Baghdad. Were also a hallmark of what the proxies under Silliman's name did and they would claim that let's As a result of their attritional warfare that they were able to chase the Americans out of Iraq in two thousand eleven having achieved very little and having having spent a lot of money to achieve so today I can report that as promised the rest of our troops in Iraq will come home by the end of the year after nearly nine years. America's war in Iraq will be over and those tensions heightened when Selemani played a critical role in Syria leading military in the US have credited him almost single-handedly Gidley with propping up a sad but President Obama was set to consider him untouchable. There was an instruction given by Barack Obama not to touch touch Qasim cinema money and that was widely known through the the US security establishment from say two thousand thirteen through to two thousand in sixteen. Why at that time I was negotiating the nuclear deal and he believed that he could co-opt Iran into acting as a is a force for good in the region time and again I have made clear to the Iranian people that we will always be open engagement on the basis of mutual interests and mutual? You'll respect our differences are real and the difficult history between our nations cannot be ignored but it is possible to change change the path of violence and rigid ideology a foreign policy based on threats tack. Your neighbors were radically Israel. That's a dead end. A different path one of tolerance and peaceful resolution of conflict leads to more integration into the global economy automate more engagement with the international community and he thought the nuclear deal may have led to ron behaving more responsibly. As he puts put in Syria and that work by Obama that you're talking about that work towards the nuclear deal that was signed in two thousand fifteen feels as if it did build old kind of fragile peace between Iran and the US as well as the two countries had a common enemy during that period in Islamic state. How did that Albright down once? Donald Trump became president. Donald Trump has been determined to strip back all of the signature achievements and solve Barack Obama and the nuclear deal was the main one it was it was. It was Barack Obama's foreign policy legacy on the other hand there is also a significant part of the US Policy establishment that resented the nuclear deal in the first place. As I said it was naive. Steve and that Iran would never come on board his as a friend or a partner with the Americans and that lifting sanctions was only going to empower them and and allow them to entrench their position in the region and it seems as things got personal between trump and syllabi himself well about eighteen months ago at the time that Donald Trump was about to wind back this nuclear deal somany issued a public warning MM-HMM TO DONALD TRUMP. He said and I quote Mr Trump. The gambler I'm telling you know that we are close to you in that place. You don't think we are you. You will stop the war but we will end it right and that has been followed by ongoing tensions. US sanctions hit the Iranian economy. The International Monetary Fund says inflation in Iran could hit forty percent this year as you were sanctions have already had an impact on the economy than America said. Iran was responsible responsible for mines placed on oil tankers in the Strait of Hormuz. Iran did do it and you know they did it because you saw the boat. I guess one of the mines didn't explode. It's probably got essentially Iran written all over it and then for an attack on its ally Saudi Arabia when a site of its state-owned oil company was targeted. US Secretary Secretary of State. Mike Pompeo says Iran is to blame for drone strikes on to Saudi oil facilities. The attacks caused huge fires. One at the world's largest the oil processing facility without triggered retaliation attacks in both directions. I mean it really escalated at the end of the year what happened. We had a a an Iranian led attack on a US base which killed a US contractor. We then had the. US strike back at Shimla devices in Iraq killing upwards of fifteen people and then on New Year's day we had the Iranian leadership lead a storming the US embassy embassy in Baghdad very heavily fortified facility ability in the Green Zone which is a secure area in the center of the capital. They were able to storm the steel doors at the front of the embassy and get inside and ransack the Hudson at the front and caused some damage to the counselor brutalism souls and these were saying that in vote images of in nineteen seventy nine in Benghazi in two thousand twelve visceral often Americans. They do not like to see their diplomatic missions. I run like that. It was humiliating and it. It shamed American leadership in many ways. I think that is what set set in motion decision to authorize the assassination of Simoni breaking news in a major escalation intentions between the US and Iran. The top Rodney in general has been killed in an airstrike while leaving the Baghdad airport costume salamone was one of the most powerful figures. Here's in the Middle East and have been the top military men in Iran for more than twenty years. Do we know how Donald Trump made the decision to target Sulejmani. We understand that in recent weeks that had been a range of options put to Donald Trump. One of those options was to assassinate him. It was considered by officials to be a a low chance that he would take that. There's a SMORGASBORD Usually put two presidents in situations like this And nobody was expecting getting him to actually go for it Initially he didn't we understand but Certainly by late last week he changed his mind. Sending officials in the White House and in the Pentagon into a scramble in order to first of all find Sumani then successfully carry out the targeting and did that shock officials. Yes it certainly shocked. Large parts of his administration Senior generals who were not expecting to be targeting an Iranian counterpart tunes in such a short time. But it would have been less of a surprise to Secretary of state. Mike Pompeo and the vice president Mike Pence both of whom have been Iran on hooks throughout their careers and certainly throughout the trump administration die had seen cosmos when Amani as the bogeyman the sum of all fears and somebody who projected did an existential threat to Israel so might have been the reason that this extreme option was there in the first place I mean if officials. I don't think the president should do something like this. Why do they provide it as an option and I think there are certainly conflicting views? Within the administration there is a very well known and entrenched against Iran Hall Group which is led by Pompeo and pence. So I think option certainly would have been put there because it would have appealed. So at least in part they're thinking or Johnson has returned from holiday saying he doesn't lament Solomon's death but urging de-escalation along with European leaders others say trump has thrown a stick of dynamite into a tinderbox. Did the people. You're speaking to think that this makes the world a more dangerous place Sunni consensus among people. I am speaking to is that. This does change things that there is no way to look at things as they are today and say that the region is a safer place that US interests have been advanced or that that Iran is any less of a threat to US allies than it was is last week. In fact it seems as Iran is an aggressive footing that it has been for many many years that it will pursue vengeance agents that the US is is at risk of being alienated from its Its allies in Europe. Boris Johnson is in an unusual position here and that his foreign policy fortunes are largely tied to the US. He can't be seen too darn separation nor can he condemn it so he has to walk a middle ground here. He's between between the Devil and the deep blue sea as the Europeans. This happened at two. AM on Friday morning. Owning is now been a few days. What's happened since the visceral scenes of the few possessions wrought throughout Iran have been so striking you've had millions of the people in the streets of Iran? This death has galvanized Iranians behind their regime. And I think it has splintered any hopes of an anti regime uprising apprising that was certainly gathering steam in the weeks and months prior this has been a nation building moment for Iran with seen Qassams ceremonies daughter take like to stay. TV and the US faces a doc die for killing off target suit year at all in quote quote. She said crazy trump. Don't think that everything is either with my father's modern. US soldiers families will spend their days waiting for the death of their children. In addition to that with Donald trump threatening to go after Iranian cultural sites to target the militarily and that would be a war crime the Iranian parliament on its feet chanting death to America across the border in Iraq. We've seen perhaps a more tangible outcome certainly within forty eight hours of this assassination taking place and that being that the Iraqi parliament has passed a resolution which urges the ousting of US forces from Iraq within twelve months that that would be a death knell to the mope operation against the Islamic state which is being jointly fought between Iraq and the US on Iraqi and Syrian soil if the Iraqi Iraqi parliament Voting for the ousting of of the. US It instead. A limiting and mourning the death of Casa money. A man who ruled dude. I've Iraq almost like a some kind of Persian viceroy for so many years the relationship had been complex there but it is now being forced into into a choice. It could well be that the choice of the Iraqis make is to align themselves with Iran rather than the US and this is all within the foot. Had hours of of the Steph. Taking place. So I think coming days and weeks guarantee some profound consequences which really will change the way things research conducted in the Middle East. How have the? US felt about the reaction and how they felt about the reaction in particular of their allies allies including Britain. Well the US certainly been reaching out to allies looking for public support Secretary of State Pompeo has has been saying that the Europeans in particular have not been helpful. But I spent the last day and a half two days talk into partners in the region sharing with him. What we're doing why we're doing get seeking their assistance? They've all been fantastic and then talking to our partners in other places that haven't been quite as good frankly. The Europeans haven't been as helpful as I wish that they could be. The Brits the French the Germans all need to understand that what we did what. The Americans did save lives in Europe as well. You're striking position coating for de escalation of violence. No no Iranian response here. They are desperate to protect what remains of the nuclear deal which is something that the American Z.. As as being separate from that position they are looking for robots support. That haven't been getting that and they're unsettled at the the different stance at the Europeans take. It's very clear from everything that you've said. Iran wants revenge but also you've described how important important Sulejmani was to Iran. He was a masterful tactician who built up extraordinary influence for the country across the Middle East who was critical to expanding. His country's interest does the fact that he's gone hamper Iranian efforts. Does it make it much more difficult for them. To achieve revenge vange the organization that Seulamat he ran for the past twenty years the Kurds force of the Revolutionary Guards the most elite in the country. They're ideologically Pity driven the mission focused. They have people right throughout the region and they were very very loyal to the cause so I think with him him. Being gone is a is a Serious blow to Iran no question about that. He had the momentum and he certainly had the trust the leadership so him being out of the way. We'll slow down They capacity the city to to press ahead with his agenda but it went crippling. People will step up. He has had very loyal deputies. Who have been able to prosecute various operations around in the region and they will be able to pick up the slack and with both sides determined to retaliate but neither seemingly wanting being a wall? How do you see this playing out already? We're seeing the bare bones of Iranian strategy. It was laid out over the weekend by by the leader of Hezbollah which is the main proxy of Qassams Sudani in Lebanon Hezbollah leader Hassan. Nasrallah said that what what would be a target that they would settle for would be the removal of US forces from Iraqi soil. Now sooner had he said that then they former Iraqi Prime Minister Abdel Mattie was in the parliament calling for exactly that there was a resolution passed in urging the expulsion expulsion of US forces within the next twelve months. If that were to happen it would be a fulfillment of what's Casa many had been aiming for for the last fifteen years of his life. It would be something that the Iranians could cling to as a moral victory and something which could justify his martyrdom. So that would that would certainly be. The bare bones of a strategy would allay fears of a broader regional war that said though there does need to be some kind of a bloodletting in Iranian it is To settle scores here. The legend needs to be squared and therein lies the danger they will be an attempt to go after. US Interests Militarily Charlie Whether that be in Europe with that being Afghanistan or elsewhere we Laura know calculates. And Will the Americans overreact. Martin thank you very much. You're welcome. That was Martin Chula. Do follow all his reporting on this story as it develops at the GUARDIAN DOT COM coming up the golden glades. Get political like never before Now this is Golden Globes. Were a great night for British film and TV with Sam Mendes nineteen in Seventeen Olivia Colman and phoebe Waller Bridge all packing awards net flicks. The night wasn't so good taking home. Only two out of a total of thirty eighty four nominations for the guardians film editor Catherine shored. This year's awards were less about the winners and more about the politics. The Golden Globes happened in Los Angeles on Sunday night lows of shocks and surprises amongst the woodwinds. But the big story really was the host strictest telling the stars to avoid politics completely in their speeches if you do win an award tonight. Please don't use the platform to make a political speech right. You're Renault position to lecture the public about anything you know nothing about the real world. Most of you spent less time in school than Thornburgh so if you win come up except Jalil Award. Thank you and your God and off. Okay very few most of the music stages a platform in in which the campaign about variously abortion rights in the case of Michelle Williams who gave a very passionate speech and I'm also grateful to have lived at a moment in our society where choice consists because as women and as girls things can happen to our bodies that are not our choice. Democratic Inclusivity Not Patricia. Arquette gave incredible speech near the end urging people to vote for the sake of children kids so much I beg us all to give them a better world. Sasha mankind did an amazing piece about compare remarks to Nazi which was attacking facebook's checking policies hero real of this next movie is a naive misguided child who spreads Nazi propaganda and only has imaginary. Marie friends his name is Mark Zuckerberg. I suppose the big the big topic of the night Rudy was climate change. So you had Russell Crowe Fire Jennifer Aniston. Who read his speech talking about the the fires in Australia and how they were very definitely caused by climate change make no mistake? The tragedy pretty unfolding in Australia is climate change based we need to act based on science move our global workforce to renewable energy and respect our planet planted for the unique an amazing place. It is that way we all have a future. Thank you Kidman also weighed in on that and Joaquin Phoenix. In his speech. He did directly allude to think but he did speak about how you didn't really need a private jet Palm Springs. It was back in Twenty fifteen that purchase Chirac drug use to Oscar Acceptance Speech to campaign for greater wage equality in Hollywood at the time this was seen as an extraordinarily radical thing to do using a showbiz speech campaign in for politics. It's our time to have wage equality once and for all and equal rights for women in the United States of America. Now it's absolutely the old and what's really changed is the actors and actresses and no longer just talking about the problems. In House Hollywood's the industry problems of wage equality of diversity of representation of sexual harassment even and and now they're really looking at the outside world and the problems all Sir experiencing and that's really good. Move for everybody. Nobody can ignore the fact that the world is on fire an annuity. That's what they're focusing on. Now they're not talking about their own the rim problems. Hollywood can't avoid the headlines Anymore on Monday. Avi Weinstein's trial started new Ukwa Patricia Arquette and many others attendance vases. Advice to the stars in speeches to avoid politics was advice from a different ear. Let's hope that they're ignoring of it is a sign of things to come. That was covering short. Do read her comment the pace on this on the website that set for today. If you're enjoying today in focus than do subscribe and get a chance. Leave us a review. My thanks Martin. Chula and Catherine Short this episode was produced by Josh Kelley pointing. usurped and Elizabeth casson sound design was by Axel Cutie. The executive producers Phil May Not Nicole Jackson. We'll be back tomorrow can you.
The Brexit gamble podcast
"Today is historic Britain will be leaving the EU after forty seven years of membership at eleven pm tonight. The last five years have been the most remarkable period in British politics report on. I've watched all of it closely. So I'm going to take you back through and that with Brexit Heh is there a silver lining the remains Mr Speaker. Once again he cannot ask questions about the economy began writing about politics in a much. Calmer time than there became a member of what's known the lobby that's reporters based inside parliament in two thousand and nine. I'm big stories the financial crash. MP's expenses coalition Howie. Listen talks but in each case we essentially had a majority government and that meant that was always a level of stability. It's very clear now that the referendum changed everything it shut the door to conventional period of British politics and opened another one to eight jaw. Dropping time will quite possibly be the most is to crushing and complete defeat. Any government is suffered. It was the day we were supposed to leave so all the more humiliating for the Prime Minister to be quite oldest looking. Get things right now. I haven't got the foggiest idea what it's going to happen in the coming weeks. It wasn't totally clear at first. What had changed? But when I look back now I realize that the brexit years defined by the biggest names in politics betting their entire careers sometimes sometimes on a single throw of the dice. I'm most of them. Got It wrong. I think the country was fresh Ashley leadership so I am today announcing that I will resign as leader of the conservative as I will not lead the party in any future general election campaign from the Guardian Dan. I'm Anouchka Astana today. In focus on the day we leave the European Union looking back at five chaotic years of Brexit. Gambles it I said when I launched my campaign that we need to change in order to win. Let's start with David Cameron now that I've won Tom. We will change to understand where things went wrong for him. You need to understand the Conservative Party that he became leader of no more doc. Grumbling about modern Britain are the Times poll suggested. The country didn't really care about Europe. Tory members really dead and they were very very euro-sceptic speeches leader Party conference in Bournemouth in in two thousand six is really interesting because he confronted this head on. He made an argument that people in the country. We're worried about safety on the streets streets and schools and childcare but at the Tory party wasn't speaking to those concerns instead it was obsessed with its own concerned and we were sometimes banging on about Europe. He wanted to silence that but he was under massive pressure. As Prime Minister he faced a series of rebellions by his own back benches over the question of e membership today leaving the Conservative Party and joining you give two of his piece defected to. You kept we. The election in the garage is party topped the polls in European elections in two thousand fourteen so the next conservative manifesto in two thousand fifteen eighteen. We'll ask for a mandate from the British people. All of which is why we arrived at a point in two thousand fifteen where David Cameron taught the first big gamble symbol of the brexit years putting an e referendum on the table by including it in the Tory manifesto with a very simple in or out choice. Why did he his career on this? I saw Cameron Close Up. He was always very slick very confident Gordon and he had to beg referendum wins under his belt a on electoral reform in two thousand and eleven. The principle of one person one vote is what makes democracy crecy fair and Scotland on independence in two thousand and fourteen. I believe in the United Kingdom head heart and soul and that time I worked at Sky News and my job was to cover conservative campaign in fact during the two thousand and fifteen election I spent the entire time on his campaign bus. Every Vittori bus on there was a touch of ruthlessness in the strategy. Cameron told me once he was convinced he could take out huge huge majorities held by his lip damn coalition partners and he did. I've just been to see her majesty. The Queen Queen and I will now form a majority conservative government and place themselves on a path where they had absolutely no choice but to go for new referendum web. You will decide and whatever your decision I will do my best to deliver it. Obviously we're talking about David Cameron. But he wasn't the only person taking a big risk in the background at the time for US Johnson was trying to make a decision that would be critical critical for his career. We know he always wanted to be prime minister and he was trying to decide what he needed to do for himself at this moment. Oh good often everybody i. It's really interesting when you look back at the video I've decided after a huge amount of of heartache. Made that announcement wanted the last year I wanted. He said the last thing he wanted to do was go against David Cameron. He was after all an old friend. They've been at the same school the same university he said it caused him in heartache. We'll be advocating leave to be honest at the time. I think I just thought it was a kind of bumbling uncertain decision. But isn't it's an interesting that at the end of it. He had ready that vote league slogan and to take back control. That's really I think. I suspect he had already been speaking. Dominic Cummings who would lead vote leave campaign and he knew exactly where he was having a once in a lifetime. Chance wants to take back control of his country. Can you in the back and say we headed into a bitterly for a referendum relief. The would have. It'd be one tons more to spend every year on Johnson against camera and we have a trade deficit when it comes to goods we buy. I work with huge rows claims. What I'm saying is that the NFL has could get through in fifty million pounds well and counterclaims? All the worst case is the mid range is a thirty billion pound whole in the public finances and Bob Geldof on a bank. You are on the European Parliament Fishing Committee see and you attended one out of forty three basic Nigel. Uh and in the days before the vote a terrible tragedy just before one o'clock today Joe Cox. MP for Butler and spend draft was attacked in knock street. I I am now very sad to have to report that. She has died as a result of injuries. Camera new by the time polls closed at ten PM on June. The twenty third two thousand and sixteen that it was close that Britain would wake up the next day as a divided nation but I think he still believed it will be divided in his favor. So here it is. TV News News at half past four in the morning. We are calling it for leave to win This referendum an extraordinary moment in British history a referendum. That David Cameron didn't need to call that he. The British people have voted to leave the European Union and the will must be respected. Identify expect to David Cameron to resign the next morning but it was pretty clear that his decision to go for a referendum meant his political career career was done as such. I think the country requires fresh leadership to take it in this direction. I'm with a legacy that he had been hoping to to build. I mean as I understand it. He had ready to publish within weeks. Something known as the life chances strategy nothing to do with your but to do with how kids can get on in the world and I know the author. I spoke to him in the weeks afterwards and he said the paper was gathering dust in his garage. David Cameron will of course be fine but it was quite a fall from grace. I mean his legacy will now only ever be about Europe. The thing he didn't want his party you to bang on about and he had to move out of Downing Street to be pictured in a shepherd's her in his back Garden Jeremy Corbyn the Labour related seemed much more relaxed than David Cameron. In fact the next morning he kind of casually announced that we should trigger article fifty now British. These people have made that decision must respect that result in article fifty has to be invoked nares which left Labor advisors who I bumped into inside parliament destroy. Aw they looked like they were grieving. I can't tell you how overwhelming this period was as a journalist. Both of the biggest parties had been plunged enjoyed into chaos. The shadow cabinet launched Against Corbin I remember being huddled with journalists outside room is pressed to the door to try to Labor MP's plotting and then running down committee corridor in the houses of parliament to another room where Tori MP's were grilling the leadership candidates into this. Their race became farcical where Michael. Boris Johnson's closest ally. Who who had been working for him in a leadership bed suddenly out of the blue stopped him in the back but I realized in the last few days? The Boris News is incapable of building that team. I'm providing that Unity Andrea leads them. She was going to be the big brexit choice and then she did this bizarre interview in the Times where she suggested that her being a mother might give her the edge. I'm there for withdrawing in the leadership election. I wished to resume as a made the very greatest success Theresa May at the time Brexit Brexit. She seemed like the obvious choice for the Conservative Party. Turn out was high and the public gave their verdict. And that is why the domino's foul so fast and before we knew it. We had a new prime minister and yet for someone who appeared so sensible so safe so strong so stable as she would go on to say Theresa may start a gambling from the off amp big time. Look the red lines that she laid down when it came named the EU negotiation. I mean she gave speeches in which she said what I am. Proposing cannot mean membership of the Single Market. We'd we'd be out of the single market. We'd be out of the customs union that we were going to have full control of immigration laws before she even got into a room with anyone from the the European Commission. The reason she was able to do that is because at the time the perception walls of great strength I mean I remember a trip at the time where we flew due to India with the prime minister and there was this really weird moment where we were in the lobby of an Indian hotel suddenly a bunch of US journalist analysts bumped into cricket star Geoffrey. Boycott who is actually Theresa. May's hero she literally had a picture of him upon a wall when when she was a kid she loves him so much and so we will. Oh can we talk to you about Theresa. May she'll be brilliant honestly infection. She's he's like a new manufacturer and he wanted Brexit and he like loads of other people. Thought Theresa May was the person to do it so in in that mood in that time. She took her next big gamble a few minutes ago. In Brussels which was to trigger article fifty incredibly quickly before her own government knew what type of Brexit they would even be going full decision to invoke article fifty. We had two years from that moment. Get it all done. The rumors were swirling by. Then the Theresa may recall an election and this was her dilemma. She had inherited a majority from David. Cameron that was wafer thin and she wanted to push through some controversial reforms like grammar schools. So we need to go further building on and extending reforms. It's so that we can truly say that will be a good school place for every child and she wanted to push through her vision of Brexit but the polls had her miles ahead of corporate her strategy chief at the time. Chris Wilkins has described to us today in focus a critical meeting in Downing Street. And I think actually at that point in prime minister had been very much warmed up to the idea was open to it had considerable reservations but her husband. Philip may clearly clearly saw the risks and he said that we have to appreciate the taking them us to get to the position of being in number ten And asking them to. We know now that she made the wrong choice. But you have to remember how it fell at the time. How could she not increase majority? She was twenty four points ahead in the polls so that we have the strong and stable leadership we need to see us through Brexit and beyond and the choice that the election is clear Ohio and on the first question you on nothing has changed. Nothing has changed and what we're saying is the Conservatives are the largest party note they don't have an overall majority at this stage three hundred and fourteen for the conservatives that stung seventeen. I cannot tell you how critical Michael that moment walls. You've gotTA throw your mind back to how things felt before that moment. Until then the best the any Romania could hope for was membership of the Single Market. They were fighting for compromise but at that moment men when the maths completely changed in parliament they just shoved to one side and eighth all game on now we can stop stop. Brexit faithful that the two thousand seventeen election had basically swept away the two thousand sixteen referendum result. A major impact of was a nightmare for Theresa may may still facing Gaping seventy-six gap and the question. Question is can she persuade enough people with I presume every Wednesday on TV. On a show called Pastor and my screen showing people data weekend we count. I was doing the parliamentary maths. The question is could those ten d you pay come down because with every vote Theresa may had. There was going to be a possibility that she'd lose it. I mean we had never known a period of instability in parliament. Like this one and it wasn't just remain as causing problems. It was the Brexit is on her back benches too because they have become so much more organized. I all the things Theresa May has said about the the red lines. I totally support. But if all everyone around her delaying what she wants to do the we also is to get rid of those people and they didn't like the fact that she was compromising and then came the checkers agreement. Her first offer of what Britain wanted from brexit and it was way too soft for her brexit tears. And I guess that's why and and Boris Johnson and two stage again with his next big gamble. When Theresa May put forward her check is agreement then he could have backed it? He could've stayed in government but he decided not news breaking Boris Johnson. The foreign secretary has also resigned. From Theresa May's cabinet. There were mutterings. He said he could not in all conscience. Champion these proposals which is interesting to backer. Because his plan now isn't all that different and the culmination of this really really difficult period. For Theresa May is the she she cannot push ahead with brexit until she has persuaded a majority of. MP's in parliament. That leads to a series of last-minute dashes to Brussels and Strasbourg the providence. And I have read join legally binding instrument. Humiliating negotiations and repeated defeats. The is to the right two hundred to the nose to the left. Four hundred and thirty two to the right two hundred thousand eight hundred eighty six the nose to the left three hundred and forty four if you were a remain room. Parliamentary Element of time. These these were the good days. I mean Ethan Iwo Inflicting defeat after defeat on the prime minister and the perhaps getting closer to your goal of stopping Brexit old together. You've given up on the soft brexit compromise. It was quite something to watch. The mood in. Parliament changed dramatically. Dick Clay. I found it. Surreal speaking to. MP's like the Tory dominant grief oil. Labor's Chucker Ramona. who were constantly in and out of Cross party meetings meetings plotting to win votes? They were optimistic but it was really tense. I'll never forget sitting in an Assu breeze office and finding finding out that she'd already had death threats that morning. This has been a death threat tuna in a letter. And then there's somebody who's running the constituency office and said I'm going to dicing and yeah they did defeat Theresa May but in doing say defeated themselves as well many of them are even MP's anymore yeah. Arguably Theresa may did move towards them. She was going to keep the whole of Britain pretty much in a customs union. She was going to offer. MP's say in a future trade deal. But in order to achieve the dream of stopping brexit they took a gamble and rejected all of that. And it's also important to mention the Democratic Unionist Party here the Northern Irish party that had propped up to resumes government. What is important for me is the politics and policy mafia to get rid of the current backstop? They were furious about the backstop. I'm not even GonNa go into the backstop here. It's a complicated thing. But essentially chalet. They had an opportunity to vote. For Theresa May's deal a deal in which she had gone out of her way to prevent Northern Ireland from big given two different treatment from the rest of the UK and a deal in which they were in a hugely influential position in government but they voted against take a move that would eventually lose them. Any influence in Westminster Andras L. in aborted on the Irish. Say so by this point. So many people had put jobs on the line in a desperate bid to influence brexit and then we got the second biggest casualty his gamble had not paid off so I am today announcing the title resign as leader of the conservative and Unionist Party on that was it for Theresa. May She went and in doing so said. She really regretted that she had not managed to get brexit done. It was immediately obvious Sent me to me and I suspect too many of you who was going to be the next leader and therefore I give notice that Boris Johnson is elected as the leader of the conservative. We need by Boris. Johnson was prepared to mate bake gambles. I suspect some of them. Driven by Dominic Cummings who had been director vote lead but we did not know couldn't possibly have known how he would behave. I ever the next two months. What we're GONNA do is come out on October? Thirty first a deal no deal and staying in beyond the thirty is completely crackers. I mean even that pledge that we were getting out or not type hypothermic. do-or-die daughter was huge. But what he did next was extraordinary. He slashed his own majority firstly by coming up with a deal but he knew would be seen as a betrayal by the D. You pay propping the Tories up secondly the prime minister left his his country. Retreat Chequers King twenty-one Conservative employees out of his party vote against the government. And you'll be kicked out of the Party and peas who who by the way had voted for Brexit. But who simply wanted to stop not deal. He kicked Winston Churchill's grandson. Nicholas Soames out of the party Eh. I remember we got a text from him saying we could speak to him so we ran over to his office. He was really upset by the way Johnson had treated him. I actually funding. I go to weep on Sean. I can't believe thirty. Seven years and men The observer had story about the government seeking legal advice to Perot Parliament. That's basically suspend parliament which they straight out denied they issued a statement denier and then a few days later they did and to also declare the progration of parliament. These are the presence of this honorable house at the time. These things seem so outrageous that no one could believe leave that they wouldn't backfire on Boris Johnson or they. We knew that it was part of building a picture that he felt would help him in an election. This idea of him. MM being determined to get brexit done while parliament was determined to stop him but look to get an election. Boris Johnson needed. MP's in parliament. Toback Cam many who were on the remain side of the divide. Didn't want Johnson's election. They wanted a second referendum but repeated vote suggested there were not the numbers in parliament to deliver it and that was when Lipton leader Jo Swinson switched from supporting a referendum Bob to an election and that made her the next high profile politician to put her career on the line. The result was devastated for the dams and for her by a majority of one hundred forty nine. The party leader Lib Dem's Jo Swinson has lost her seat in so look. I've told you about these people. He made these high stakes high risk bats. David Cameron Theresa May remain remain about benches the DP on the lip dams but we have already spoken about Labour's frontbench. Because for much of this time they did the opposite they tried not to take a big risk they tried to straddle the brexit divide but in the end under pressure. They did take a risk they placed a second referendum on the table and we believe published of vote to decide whether it should be no deal or reminded me of you was a gamble. One of Corbin's close aides talking to me that it was and said that Brexit is why the two thousand nineteen election went the way it did but others say the problem was not brexit but Corbin Dan and this is part of the story that is still being debated and is not yet resolved And so at the end of five years of gambling over Britain's place in Europe there is one man standing Boris Johnson. Along the way he's made writes some really high risk decisions that clearly did affect him think back to his stunned face on the morning of June the twenty four th two thousand sixteen and I want to to begin this morning by paying tribute to David Cameron who's spoken earlier from Downing Street. All his reaction when his decisions drive his brother out of the party. Joe Doesn't agree with me about the European Union because it's a at every fork along the way. His opponents could have behaved differently changing the destination but we have arrived exactly what Johnson wanted to a prime minister of the UK leading us out of the EU. Tonight there's some would say he takes out the other side of this period of gambling but ba casino is now closed. I mean I'm not totally convinced. Sure majority government it is much more stable and certainly much more boring. If you're a political journalist but the stakes remain very high. Boris Johnson still has to. I'm not a trade deal not only with the EU. But also with America he also needs to try to keep hold of those northern and Midland seats that he has one of labor on the back of borrowed votes and he has to deal with a union in which Scotland is now politically eh totally dominated by a party. That has one key aim to achieve independence. And you know what they're going to need to achieve that another referendum You may be partying tonight. Perhaps commiserating either way you can follow it through to eleven pm. mm-hmm we officially leave the EU on the Guardians. Live blog a big. Thank you to everyone who has got in touch on twitter or left reviews. You know that every every five star rating makes us incredibly happy coming up why there is still time to think about the brexit. You are Now for many remain is Brexit as the end of the road but for economist an activist Faiza Shaheen who narrowly lost to conservative. M P in Duncan Smith. There is still work to do. She believes that it's wrong. To cling onto the status data's quo but instead build a positive vision of what they want society to be is Brexit Day and. I know that many of us didn't want to see this day happen and personally of course I feel it I fully the End Consumer Fakih your G Brexit tear incentive. MP and lost and it was so painful to lose to that set. Yeah of arguments in that kind of person ball. The reality is we're hearing it's happening and we can just forever be leaking. All Wins Leans one of the things that happened post. The brexit vote and in the remain camp was that because people were so co-op just making an argument of stopping brexit. They were essentially making an argument to protect the status quo. Now the status quo of course lead us to the Brexit vote in the first place and now where. Hey we have to stop an idea of what we want to change. which isn't just about stopping in Brexit but is about a big vision for this country? And if we don't have a vision if we didn't have a plan then it's very difficult for us to to criticize and put pressure on government unless we know what we WANNA see. We can't be effective fires against wherever the Tories as happened. For instance taking something tax. Now there's a real danger that the way in which Britain manages to retain business is by becoming a tax haven and having lower work regulation that we do a kind of race All you say no. We're not GONNA do that. Because that's bad for inequality and it's bad for workers but we all going to do is make sure that we are a hub for cheap renewable energy that we have an incredible national education service which allows people to retrain. And if you put your business in this country you will have access to the mice. Incredibly skilled workforce also. Do we want to have an empire. Point Group of trade deals which keeps awesome place the dynamic in the power that we've had historically or do we want to treat these countries as equals and thinking about how we can exchange things like green technology in order to help these countries to develop. That's a very different type trade deal and then finally I think you know the big one his immigration and there is a real concern that as we end freedom of movement then we become a kind of close store in with McCain prejudiced hist country or we say actually the type of immigration policy we have is going to recognize that we need skills across the board but also also that it's not just about the economy that we want to think about love and family as well. We want to make sure that people can fall in love and not be worried about out not being able to get their partner hair because they're not earning that granda whatever threshold is. I think it's hard for a lot of us to imagine what we do. With the Tory majority in how we have any influence over the brexit process and the trade dope price aspect conversely what a majority conservative government does is that it puts the onus back on us to be more empowered and be stronger in our communities and stronger stronger at protest using all of the tools that we possibly can which might look like legal roots at might look like mass protests on the street. It may look like how you vote in a city election or in a local election to make sure that government knows that what they're doing isn't supported. Wait by the public. Yes many of YOU WANNA clears the ends in. Pretend it's not happening but it's absolutely time. Mind that we open those curtains lookout and think through our vision for Is because then and only then we will finally know what we are fighting full not disliking against that was vises Shaheen director talk of the Center for Labor and social studies or class. My thanks to her. That's all for today. This episode was produced by Elizabeth Kassian Gregory Robinson Jason. And Courtney Yousef sound design was by Akzo Kukuchi. The executive producers are still may not and Jackson. I hope you have a great weekend. We'll be back on Monday.
India, Modi and the rise of Hindu nationalism
"Today after violent clashes in Delhi turned deadly. We look at how Hindu nationalism is dividing India and as trae talks are about to begin the EU lays out. Its negotiating position. Only in January rendu Jawara. Nato University Delhi J. New as it's called 'em at amid. I'm it is a young man. He's a Muslim man and Ahmed told me what happened to him. On the night of January fifth just before seven in the evening when the campus is dark and quiet it come to this residence hall. As he was standing outside he looked to his right and he noticed a group of fifty or sixty moss men and women coming towards him. They were carrying sticks and clubs. One of them's swinging a sledgehammer. I'm scared so he ran inside. The residence hall ran up to his friends room and locked the door but the lights off hoping that nobody would notice them could kill his group of people slamming into rooms the shattered glass on the doors in one case. They threw somebody off a balcony. They beat up a blind kid. The entire attack lost about half an hour. This violent attack taking place. At one of India's world-famous universities shot the country but what was perhaps most chilling was who might be responsible. Amish could see that. Some of them were members of campus. Political Group called Achil- Bharti Videotape Parisian. It's affiliated to a right-wing Hindu nationalist organization known as the R S S. And that's significant because of its close ties to the political party but is currently ruling. India under the leadership of prime minister. Narendra Modi outside. The Gate of the campus police had gathered. They didn't go into the university to stop these attacks. They stayed outside the university gates to make sure nobody else could go in. The entire night was a night in which a campus political group allied to the party. That rules India was allowed to run riot. Beat people up smashed property with the active connivance and complicity of the police. The author and Guardian Writer. Some subur- Manian believes that this clash of politics at the new university mirrors the growing tensions in India more broadly. This country led by Hindu nationalist. Prime Minister Narendra Modi who has pursued increasingly hardline policies since his landslide reelection last year for the most recent of these policies the controversial citizenship at the many elevating. Hindus above Muslims has ignited a massive nationwide backlash on Monday as mody welcomed. Us President Donald Trump to India. A politician he's been compared to those protests intensified and then turned deadly today. We're also keeping close focus on the developments coming in from the national capital on the violence that broke out on the streets of Nolte's daily from the Guardian. I'm Anouchka Astana today. Focus what rising Hindu nationalism means for India someth-. Why did you want to write about this? It's difficult not to address the head on when you're a journalist from India. I feel like Modise sucks all the oxygen out of every discussion In the country in pretty much the same that trump does in the US brexit does in the UK. But I think more importantly the mounting piece of Hindu nationalism in India. Something that everybody should be worried about. I certainly am and I just wanted to write about it. And you've written about this in part through the prison all the Delhi University the Janey weather terrible attack happened. It's a place that's known for. Its secular outlook. There have been protests there against Modi in recent weeks the government see the new as a symbol of liberal opposition. But not ethos dates right back to when it was set up in nineteen. Sixty-nine at that time did that reflect. India's politics more broadly at the time I think it'd India was founded with this kind of ideal of secular democracy and that ideal persisted for a long time just as it did. Ajay knew it. Sounds as if the consensus at the time was very much against the Hindu nationalist group you mentioned the RSS and its student wing the AB VP. But presumably they did exist. What did they stand for? When J Nudie a BP was against everything Jay new itself stood for. They believed very formerly in this idea of a Hindu state and they hated the Liberals and the left us with a passion and how tiff with the two groups. The process itself Was active but it was not politically important the VP correspondingly was also quite weak in campus throughout the seventy s and eighty S. They were practically non-existent in fact one of the teachers at J. Today told me that back in the late. Eighty s early ninety s if you wanted to attend an AB VP rally. You do so with a blanket wrapped around your face. Because that's how embarrassing it was to be considered any BVP supporter. So when did that start to change? If we really want to put a date on it it would be December. One thousand nine hundred only in our lives do we witness event you can safely say will change the history of our nation. That was the de of mosque. Fail and India changed what happened on December actually had a prelude in nineteen ninety down called audio in the state of Uttar Pradesh in northern India had a mosque there for centuries at least three and a half centuries and a Hindu right. The RSS in particular always claimed the mosque had been built by invading king on the birthplace of the Hindu Deity Ram. Their agenda was to knock the mosque down and to build a temple on its Parkinson in late. One thousand nine hundred a senior. Bjp leader decided to rally across most of north and central to try to raise funds and support for this project. This was a big Toyota truck dressed up as a chatty it from intelligence funnily enough the chariot. You're the guy who was sitting in the cab of the Toyota was the Prime Minister of India Today. Ramadi back then. He was just a volunteer. He took this rally out in late. Nineteen Ninety nine hundred ninety in December with them the duke a bunch of other says in BJP workers from all across. India came to here and tore down the mosque. It was at this point I would. Miss team was attacked by the seaman's allow demolition to refill. Would able to start translating that. Into political victories in elections run India not coincidentally the first time the Abebe won a seat on the student. Union was in nineteen ninety two the same year. The mosque Phil did that then. Snowball did they get more representation on the student union through the nineties. They continue to win more more seats in the two thousand. They won the presidency of student. Union for the very first time and again the events of national politics parallel events of student politics so neatly because the BJP formed its first National Government in one thousand nine hundred sixty ruled right up until two thousand four. Why was this happening? Why was there such a rise in Hindu nationalism at this time? Well I think they're so several factors and I think a lot of trying to figure it out It's not coincidental that in the early. One thousand nine hundred eighty s the philosophy and the ideology of socialism itself took a beating the Soviet Union falls. The left itself is starting to experience weaknesses in it's a political ideology and I think as the economy opens up which did in the early ninety s India itself discovers the joys and splendors of capitalism and wants to vote for the party that is advocating for more economic reform in this case that was the BJP. But secondly also I think as India went from being an extremely young nation to a slightly more mature one. It started to crave the kind of presence and stay Joe on the world stage that the BJP promises to provide that they will develop nuclear weapons and test them that they will be stronger and more fierce than their responses to Pakistan the old enemy and all of these things are tied very much to the BJP's idea of India as a Hindu strong Hindu nation. And if we fast forward Narendra Modi became the Chief Minister of Goodra during his period. There were controversies over Hindu nationalism. And then in two thousand fourteen. He became prime minister. Do you think that people who voted for him would doing so? Because of the Hindu nationalism there were a number of people who wanted India to be a Hindu state and continue to want that today. But I think the reasons as to why people voted for the BJP more complex than that and there was an element of fatigue with the Congress party which had been in power for ten years the Congress itself had grown corrupt and flabby did. It continued to be dominated by a single family. The Ghandi's the Ghandi's it was seen as kind of dynastic body and Modi's big selling point. I think was the fact that it had been chief minister of Gujarat and he had claimed that he had made the state into a model of what. India itself should be a wealthy highly. Industrialized extremely incorruptible government. All of these promises that he wanted to give for. India itself trotted out from the Gujarat model. Regardless of the reasons that people elected moday altered name was quite a shift in politics in India. Quite a divisive choice arguably I mean did that start to cause tension in society or tension within families even it did. I think it was such a polarizing choice so the minute moody came to power the emboldening and the empowering of lot of these Hindu right-wing activists and fanatics was clear to see a congregate. Oughta that took place in Sunni district stem. Deputy Ish a group of College Alana's Allegedly brutally trash to the woman for allegedly. There was a CDs of beef lynchings as their called. These gangs of vigilantes who claim to want to protect the cow and beef which both sacred in Hinduism and so they would target Muslims and lower caste Hindus who were even suspected of smuggling account that kind of violence shook. The country would friend some termed as inclusive shootings of writers and activists most notably gory linkage journalist and Bangalore were shot outside her house off. The Motor of Journalists Gordon Case. There is a gang of right-wing Hindu fanatics is India. Being overtaken by hit. That's what we're talking about tonight. You've already talked a couple of times. About how the national pitcher was often mirrored within universities within the J. Anew in Delhi. Was that happening at this time. I mean the most striking example of that is what happened in February. Two Thousand Sixteen Amana. Just been hanged. This was a comedian man who was suspected of being a terrorist and there was a protest rally in Janu- Decrying capital punishment in general. But this hanging in particular. The protest rally was led by the head of the student union at the time. A man named Cognac Mar Canonical model was subsequently arrested for and charged with sedition which is an old colonial law. That's still for. Some reason exists on the books in India. Sedition for holding protests sedition for holding a protest because you're protesting the act of the nation. You're protesting nations decision to execute a man so Kane'ohe was arrested. He spends a few days in jail. He's taken to a courthouse in Delhi. Where in the morning those images of Kanaya come out there being roughed up as he was taken into the grounds of the courthouse just outside the courthouse. He's beaten up by a mob that includes at least one. Bjp legislator that includes several lawyers who are into the BJP and the police are standing by and doing nothing. Journalists are beaten up at the same time as asked for the courtroom to be evacuated after scenes of utter lawlessness mayhem and I think that was a particularly vivid example of how far the state would go at the. Bjp would go to protect the people that had wanted to protect and to allow To come to people who opposed it I mean why would a government see a liberal university in Delhi as the kind of symbol of its opposition? But this is the nature of authoritarian. Governments is that they see every single shred of opposition every spark of opposition. Something has to be stamped down and put out before it flares that sounds like a very worrying shift towards more of an authoritarian model of government during that first term when mode was prime minister with our policies during that period. The also marked a shift towards more forthright Hindu nationalism. The most prominent one I think would be this excise. Call the National Register of citizens that started in Assam a few years ago Osama particularly fraught northeastern state. It's on the border with Bangladesh Bangladesh. Muslim-majority country and the border has been relatively porous for decades. And so one of the planks of the BJP's ideology has always been to get rid of illegal Muslim immigrants from Bangladesh Assam. And the way they want to do this is of course to ask people to provide elaborate documentation of their fathers grandfathers living in India before nineteen seventy-one that's not always possible. Osama's full of poor people documentation is sparse fresh nervousness in families where some relatives have been kept out of the new citizen list at inevitably of course when it was completed in some people discovered that nine out of ten cases that were judy catered had to Muslims and these are the people who are denied citizenship that are detention centers being built in. Assam now to house these so-called illegal immigrants so you have the situation where very methodically these Muslims in Assam. A being siphoned out of the population being sent to these detention centers stripped of their citizenship and voting rights. That is in my opinion. A really sort of big step forward in this idea to create a Hindu state so what is the ultimate aim for the BJP. What does achieving a Hindu state mean logistically speaking it will be very difficult for the BJP to imagine India's exclusively Hindu because what do you do with one hundred and eighty or two hundred million minorities So I think what they would actually see is a kind of a country with a graded citizenship system. Hindus enjoy more rights more privileges than anyone else on. Interestingly you began by suggesting that in two thousand fourteen. It wasn't clear whether the votes he got were driven because people supported his hindu-nationalist more weather the there was a certain level of fatigue with the systems. That have been in place before it feels to me that by two thousand and nineteen. The direction of travel was very clear. So why did he then go on to get an even bigger majority? I'm still struggling to answer that for myself. I mean one possible theory. Is that the opposition. The congress still so weak and widowed that. It's very difficult to find anybody who wants to vote for it but I did have a moment of serious Sort of moral doubt that I started to actively wonder whether that many people in India including people I know who India to be a Hindu state. It's SORTA majority mind you because India has a Westminster style democracy but even for thirty five percent of the population to want India to be exclusively in the is a frightening prospect Like I say Modi did win a bigger majority in two thousand and Nineteen. What policies has he perceived since then and do they mark a further shift towards a nationalist agenda? The piece of how quickly you sort of started rolling out items on the BJP wishlist has sped up more than I would have imagined sudden mementos decision. The first major thing that happened was the suspension of a constitutional provision that grant Kashmir sort of a special status within the Indian Union. It's a change in the constitution with far-reaching consequences not long after that a supreme court in India which is increasingly being seen as malleable. Release this judgment now. India's top court has ruled that a disputed religious site given to Hindus for the construction of a temple ready. They said it was illegal for that mosque. In your dear to be turned down but despite that there should still be temple built on that site which again seemed to be seen as a as a vindication a win for the process and not to keep a this bombing rookie. There was the promise to the National Register of citizens. The exercise that was carried out in a some would be ruled out across India to every single tapes and of course not December. You had the Citizenship Act. Tell me about the citizenship. At how does it work? The act promises to fasttrack the citizenship applications of refugees fleeing persecution in three neighboring countries Pakistan Bangladesh of Gunston at fought strikes the application of every single minority group except Muslims. What was the reaction? There were protests that greeted it from the very first year. And this was heartening for somebody like me for the Liberals because as the Kashmir provision was suspended as the national register of citizens promise across the country as the Supreme Court verdict on the Temple. In the mosque we'd seen no protests anywhere and it was disheartening because it seemed to confirm for me at least seemed to confirm the suspicion that are actually millions of people in India hundreds of millions of people in India. Who actually do subscribe to this idea of in the state so when the protests started after the citizenship act that was the first bright spark of light and hope that I'd seen in a long time. Why do you think it triggers such a big backlash? This time. I think the feeling is that in in seven and a half decades as a free country. India has never faced a more momentous crisis. There's something unique about citizenship. Pack in terms of how it sets out explicitly to destroy the constitutional vision of India. Which is the vision for a liberal secular democracy? The Citizenship Act works in tandem with the National Register citizens. Suddenly people are afraid. They're going to have to prove their citizenship. It allows possibilities for rent-seeking for harassment for corruption. It really holds out this threat that you might be declared illegal and I think that was what stimulated and sustained the season of protests that of course in midwinter these protests we get the attacks on Jay new with those attacks assigned that people on the right that hindu-nationalist felt that this was a huge threat to them the severity in the strength and the length of the protests unsettled. Everybody in the Hindu right. I think they hadn't expected certainly protest to go on for this long and the fact that it was not just Muslims out there protesting it was Hindus and everybody else. I think that was a clear. Sign that something was wrong. One of the most striking things about the J. and you attack was the way the police employees failed to at is that something that's happening more. Broadly Kenna characterize the government's response to the entire season of protests. The minute they started to realize that these protests were happening. They started to get in and arrest people without reason they would shut down the Internet for parts of the data. Make sure that people couldn't coordinate on WHATSAPP over where to meet and protest An auto predation the state of the British Police went into homes and wreck them and Beat people up in Delhi. There was another university called Jamia Millia University and they were attacked by the police on the students state as well. What is the government hoping to achieve? Eventually the protest will die down and they will plow forward with the implementation of the register of citizens and the Citizenship Act. I mean the home minister has already said it has no way the government is going to roll any of this stuff back. So the protests haven't affected the government's resolve to stick with policy half the protests effected India's resolve to stick with the BJP that remains to be seen. But I mean we did see on election in Delhi a couple of days ago in which the BJP one just seven out of seventy seats. That's not something to be. Gp's used to adult to lose that badly. Of course the that up many of the factors that play into the daily election but I think the fact that these protests have really shaken the nation. I think that has some small part to play and since there are the protests still going strong across the country they are particularly in Delhi. The heart of all this resistance having the protesters still going strong. Sometimes these gatherings swelled to tens of thousands. It's a wide cross section of society. This is a real resistance reporting on. They're taking us right into the heart of the J. New and this kind of tussle that there's been between the government and between this university. What did you take away from it? I think mostly for me. The most important thing was to be able to see any resistance at all. Because I think it kind of characterizes way India we go over the next few years the BJP still has four and a half years in power. They may win another national election after that. So there's still a strong party But the success of their policies it has to be gauged on the kind of resistance that it meets with an Indian civil society at large I think these protests were finally an indicator that there will be sections of society that stand up to this idea of Hindus Cement. Thank you for your time thank you. That was months. Subramanian who has written an excellent long read on this at the Guardian Dot Com coming up the EU lays out its traitor demands too often in science podcasts. We hear voices not the people he might be affected by new discoveries. Those who made them. If we flipped on its head scarf an extra crime and I would absolutely delete that and it's not change her. It's changed the extra crimes and hosts her back without common threads. Podcast traveled around the country to hear people's questions hopes and fears when it comes to something called gene editing. I'd say that he's very happy in his skin. The only person suffered because of him is me to have listen. Just common threads on your podcast out now if you thought. Brexit was over buckle up as at least a year's worth of negotiations over the UK's future trading relationship with Brussels are about to begin on Tuesday the EU laid out. It's tough opening position that regardless of its global ambitions the UK must not undercut the block in its goods and services. We caught up with guardians. Brussels bureau chief Daniel Buffy in the wake of the announcement for years is brexit referendum and the EU have issued their negotiating mandate for the future relationship. We thought withdrawal talks which is even harder the European Union's offering an unprecedented deal so zero tariffs zero quotas on goods traded between the Kennedy. So reducing the cost of trade and no other country has such a deal for all goods anywhere in the world. But you've been union don't won't the United Kingdom to lower their environmental work is will social standards because that we all tend to cut French German businesses when they sell into the European market but they want to get further in fact they want to say to the UK will as we develop our rules and regulations as they improve over time for example with our environmental standards might improve you should blowers and if you don't follow his than we will be able to take trade remedies so there's no way you can undercut us on. State. It's slightly different. There's the rules that decide subsidies allowed for industry tech farmers. And that's the opinion saying no you have to follow his completely. You have to essentially incorporates dynamically as we change it state take little and that's extremely problematic because the United Kingdom's position is that we want a free trade deal with your opinion but we don't expect you to set as rules and expect us to incorporate your regulations into our new book. Late Edition agreed by the twenty-seven now European Union states was a clause which said that the UK should stay in line with EU regulations in terms of the health and sanitary rules with got to animal and agricultural products. And this essentially is an attempt to say. Casey continues to ban chicken possibly even genetically modified food certain pesticides and the idea behind this European meet produces they want to continue to settle emmy tend to the UK and they don't want to face keep a chicken vs ample as being chlorine washed. They want to continue the very fruitful sale of their products into the UK. Bros Johnson's position on the trade talks bachelor. Very clear cuts. He simply won't Sali's relationship in the European Union yes selling goods on zero tariff basis. And yes recognizing the UK will need sign up to some provisions to make sure that there's a level playing field but absolutely not following the rules to meanwhile Johnson wants to have parallel tools with Donald. Trump's whitehouse over a trade deal with the US the problem is will have to accept. Us puts into our market was part of any trade deal which made by different standards. That's a problem for farmers for all businesses because they'll be undercut by US standards so the National Farmers Union are very concerned about that and the very concerned. The tip don't have a deal with the European Union by the end of twenty twenty then huge tasks will be puts on British Meat Yousef example who wants to sell into the European market. The reality is you good to one particular standard Unlikely different standards. And you're a huge costs if you open your markets to people who had low standards me that was Daniel Buffet. Do Follow this story all the way up to December on the website. That's it for today. My thanks to some months. Subramanian and Daniel Buffy. This episode was produced by Roze de la Rebecca and Courtney user sound design was by Axel Cuckoo ta the executive producers on Coal Jackson and film may not. We'll be back tomorrow.
Naomi Klein on how politics can solve the climate crisis
"Today author and activist Naomi Klein on a radical political solution for the climate crisis and right to die trilling on the shocking discovery of thirty nine bodies inside a lorry in Essex into a climate emergency two thousand nineteen is being quite yet Naomi Klein went from being a child of the consumerist nineteen eighties to become a superstar we are in this crisis so whether it was people in New York who came wrapped in Puerto Rico's flag march fifteenth there was the largest coordinated climate action that the planet had ever seen around since on fire is that Jane Fonda read the Book and she called me and said I'm changing my life and she's just been getting arrested now every week range as something they were scared about off in the future they were bringing to that day this global sense of this is no longer a future crisis day weekend and I was reading Naomi Klein's new book and it really hit me how urgent this issue is but when she heart of a radical new plan to restructure politics and the economy but cam the green new deal then there was one thing missing from her critique of capitalism twenty s later climbed believes that tackling the climate crisis needs to be at the really become a reality from the Guardian I'm Anouchka Astana today's Focus Niamey Klein on the need for an urgent political response it happened on every continent what struck me hearing the stories was just that so many of the young people were not talking about climate change of the anti-globalization movement in the nineteen ninety s her era defining book no logo was all about human rights in economics but in terms of an uprising about the climate crisis tell us about that first global protein we're not doing students in Capetown who just a year before had faced that's existential moment where we all were told Capetown was just gonNA run out of water that I find spending time with young climate strikers it's amazing that they're doing it but so many of them know that this isn't what they should be doing they're giving up their childhoods students all over the Pacific northwest whether it's Vancouver Seattle San Francisco the previous two summers had been completely blanketed in wildfire smoke in the war Eh in bringing the memory of Hurricane Maria devastating that island I don't understand why they're world leaders one point six million young people participated in a coordinated climate strike inspired by by gratitude and Greta set the UN you have stolen my dreams in my childhood with your empty words they're giving up their recesses there were united in their opposition to the various consequences of trade in a global economy police tried to clear a path for delegates it was but it wasn't top of the agenda but there was absolutely a sense that in addition to the fact that this way of producing products for instance the globalization of labor and the fact that multinationals were able to search the globe for the cheapest place to make their products we certainly writes I was reading about economic rights climate felt far off abstract to me my wakeup call was Hurricane Katrina knew that they were going to countries with not only low labor standards but also low environmental standards I don't think we realize the extent to which this was going to lead to a massive emission spike take but we did know that moving stuff around the world back and forth was a very high carbon way of making things and if you didn't realize then sprawl that I went to was empty and it was crazy because we were in the middle of a health emergency but because I was a white journalist like I was published protesters rioting against globalization and we'll try out the day thousands of people in Seattle and elsewhere where that might lead was the Ra- moment in the years that followed that you felt that you did suddenly realized that for me like I I wasn't a climate person like I I was writing about human I was taken to a fancy private hospital I've never gotten better care because they had an almost no patients and they had all these private guards protecting the hostile ranks humanity and tells doctors that you don't have to care about people because they're poor and black if they don't have health insurance then my God how are we is after Katrina climate change really rises up the political agenda as it does so it becomes a highly polarized culture war tune bar the price for future changes whether you like it or not and Mozambique there was no climate strike b okay from Louisiana Mississippi Alabama and Florida and Katrina just getting started our coverage continues to this and that was in Newark aw from looters there was this young doctor taking care of me and I said you know have you gone to volunteer in any of the shelters and he said Oh i never thought of that and I thought Oh my God this is what our future it's not just about climate change it's that if you have an economic and political system that GONNA deal with with systemic climate disruption because that same mentality is going to allow hundreds of millions of people to drown and so in those welcome to this discussion about climate change and and you end up at something called the heartland conference was quite interested in how you winds were in the weeks after the city was flooded we got into a car accident because all the street signs were twisted and I ended up in hospital and the shing which it's been vilified for I mean it was going to that conference was so interesting because I I knew about climate change deniers I thought that it was hose at that time the country was bracing for a cyclonic die the main thing on a ticket in the heartland institute is a Chicago based think tank that covers a lot of issues but particularly climate change that is going on between left and right in America and in two thousand and eleven you decided to take a look at what the other side believed start okay they know that if the public has told that they're still debate and uncertainty on this public support for their agenda just evaporates scientists disagree about the environmental impacts of the combustion of fossil fuels on global climate. They disagree there's and they hide it because maybe I thought they were kind of cranks but I didn't understand until I went to heartland conference that this entire project of spreading doubt it's driven by free market think tanks and these are the people who worship at the altar of Margaret Thatcher and there is no such thing as society so at the conference I interviewed the Head of the heartland institute there even their weekends like what are what are we adults doing you know we can't just be like oh good for you you know in two thousand nine hundred and this is a huge issue mkx system that defines progress as growth built to facilitate the pursuit of prophets at all costs that is not compatible. I couldn't get through and I wanna go to work protests shut down much of the city I mean climate change wasn't on the agenda in this way actually go in there I mean this is climate change deniers conference you not an obvious delicate okay so I didn't register as media I just Kinda Joseph he's an economist he's not a scientist he admitted to me he said. I realize that if the science was true than anything would be justified in in terms of with what scientists are telling us we need to do right now which is cut global emissions in half in a mere eleven years there isn't any and so you basically think that to do with this you need to upend capitalism is a fundamental challenge to an driven by a subset of scientists who had these skeptical views that you know that that didn't fall in line with the majority of clients likely to be hardest hit by the climate emergency some critics of the great new dale say Galatian so I took another look at the science so it's very clear what his motivations important fact about climate science often overlooked is that but also to restructure the economy in order to create jobs and improve living standards through this time for five years for a half baked you know concerns about human induced climate change as if capitalism itself were under threat it's not because they're paranoid is because they're paying attention Michael Economic and Social Paradigm the goal is to achieve net zero greenhouse emissions by twenty thirty and one hundred percent renewable energy we do need a much more deliberate economy the green new deal was proposed earlier this year by the US congresswoman Alexandria Cossio Cortes it aims to address the climate crisis and the crisis of growing inequality together green new deal is is about shifting our politic watered-down compromise position proponents talk of environmental justice promising that the plan will I provide support for the most vulnerable communities Communist on the planet who can tell you how to get that depth of emission reduction within an economic framework that is simply built to pursue growth so faced you had thousands of thousands of farming families who were forced to leave their homes because of the dust bowl and they were migrating it also had something called the civilian conservation core which employed more than two million poor young men in cities and sent them to a network of camps where they planted two point three billion great depression and also the dust bowl and this is really important that that Roosevelt wasn't just dealing with an economic crisis he was also dealing with the biggest ecological crisis the US had ever it's too radical that you can't take people with you and they ask why European these two massive issues together but you argue it's been oh planet it's identical this is identical not similar and then you conclude and I love the went hotline does CBS which it's important understand was not one or two programs it was his entire framework for governing for a decade to deal with between the diagnosis of the problem and you'll hear speeches from politicians about how it's such a huge crisis and then the kinds of responses they propose are so incremental and a gradual approach to take people with the is your response to that that we don't have time we don't have time it's not my response I mean there is a mismatch he would be asking more of one another for a long time it was like this is a huge crisis changer lightbulb this is a huge crisis get a hybrid. What's exciting about the green new deal in the Oh you rye abou the Nyas basically branding the climate change movement as a left wing socialist plot I mean you talk about British blogs James Darling poll saying advances causes it the left or the former Czech President Vaclav Klaus saying global warming policies are akin to communist central planning of the trees which is really interesting because one of the things we need to do in the face of the climate crisis draw down a lot of carbon and one of the ways to do that is to plant a lot of trees if people say you need them at the end of the month we live in an economic system that is forcing people to choose and the truth is everybody cares about both and so we have to find as far of a word rounded well rounded plan we are getting to the informant how choices that we make individuals recently now clearly there's a much bigger picture story here as well but doesn't make a difference for people to for the last time we're gonNA come to the policies the new deal the things that you think need to be done to solve but if we just ruined for second over back to nine thousand nine hundred nine when I mean how much longer we could we say good he's going to win we're talking about a storm that is impacting at the at this very minute four different states along the Gulf coast we're going all the way I stopped smoking and I think most of us fall into that category we began talking about the fifteenth of March sees that say okay we're going to radically lower emissions and we're gonNA find a way to create lots of good jobs and we're GonNa make sure that the basics are taking care of healthcare housing transit before all this is modeled after Roosevelt's original new deal in the nineteen thirties properly be considered I knew it was really bad for me when I did it I didn't quit smoking because I found out it was bad for me I quit smoking because my government banned smoking in restaurants bars there was a shooter who had gone into two mosques and had killed more than fifty people I I live in a cold climate I wanNA smoke outside shivering out without a jacket feeling foolish they eventually just made it so damn hard for me to smoke should do those things but we cannot mistake that for what it is going to take to lower emissions at his speed and scale you believe that if the reports about the mind alleged to have committed that crime or Acura and I should say there is a trial in which he's pleading not guilty then and that is going to make it a little bit easier to change our lifestyle in ways that are going to be hard but it is GonNa make it easier they say we should give up those climate protests all across the world but we didn't talk about one and that was the one that was in Christ's church New Zealand going to be rallying to Cathedral Square and meant for the green new deal in the United States this is this is the first time we've had a policy response to the climate crisis that is on the scale of the crisis itself and that puts give up me drive less fly less and if so should they do it of course we can do things that were lower our personal carbon footprint and we assist the center and I think the game changer is you know the zone movement in France their slogan directed at my call you care about the end of the world we care about doesn't know is that I used to do the work as a teenager in the eighty s dry Reputa- leg warmers all of it within these far right movements where you have a very brutal ranking of human life already and you have systems of thought that say well the this would illustrate a link between the climate crisis and far right hate why he was a white supremacist he identified himself that will actually prevent catastrophic warming that is gonNA take changes in policy and changes in policy can change behavior right. I mean I used to smoke. Cigarettes has an ethno-nationalist Eco Fascist in his manifesto he blamed immigrants for destruction of the environment and that's why he went into those into those mosques and committed that horrific hate crime and my worry is that shooting in New Zealand a New Zealand mosque leaves dozens of people dead with the gunman live streaming the incident on social media just a few minutes away oh who are winning are winning because they deserve to win in the people who are losing they're losing because there's something wrong with them because because they're not as good as us that when you doc between the climate crisis the far right partly to do with the impact that the climate crisis might have for example in terms of the movement of people in terms of on this planet is shrinking and it is going to contract more so we're going to have to figure out how to share what is left say it's not the answer to change a light bulb or get hybrid but if everybody's changing their light bulbs and getting hybrids then that starts to make a difference and we've talked a lot about economy because same economic system that is overheating our planet is failing them on so many other fronts and the idea of voices like there isn't really a way that where we get to just continue on as we are let's be hopeful it is pretty astonishing but you're sitting that I couldn't have dreamed of just two years ago thank you very much thank you the pleasure political parties all over the world when you were writing about climate deniers in two thousand and eleven the public wasn't with you people didn't layer climate on top of that and when those people stop denying the science then what starts to happen is that climate change they'll be speakers hopefully we'll have a few politicians to hear us out March Fifteenth there were young people walking out of schools they did that in in Christ coach and there was a really good turnout actually and then all of a sudden they were told that the whole thing had to be shut down and that they all had to breaking news that were following for you this morning a mass isn't that you are speaking to people who are listening in a way that they certainly weren't doing ten years ago absolutely I mean look I'm a moderate now compared they're not afraid of that change and that's the biggest shift of all is that there are now young people who want to get to work and they're pushing their politicians in ways building a fair economy that could actually put people at the center and People's needs at the center and what our planet can manage at the center that fills them with excitement and hope do everything we possibly can there's going to be one point five degrees warming and what is already happening is that the space in which humans can live ratio out there and they just don't buy the do they actually believe that it is possible for us to change their even excited about changing the hey with me in two thousand and nineteen and you're talking about radical policies that people taking very seriously people in completely mainstream Throw less away Dr Electric cars walk more fly less and governments must make major and let me just about those ways that you might change your lifestyle I mean currently We'll happened in Sarah is a shocking incident estate in Essex Police said they were in the process of identifying the victims including one teenager thirty eight adults Daniel Trilling has spoken one is to hide on top of the wheel axles squeezing yourself between the wheel casings and the body of the Laurie the second is to put yourself that was Niamey client her new book on fire is out now coming up dozens of bodies discovered in Laurie in Essex uh-huh at justification for even more brutality even more barbarism and it says well this is why we have to lock down our continent's is the kind of thing their disposal their knowledge about the roots their contacts whether they're single young and able bodied or whether they're infirm or they perhaps have children with them refugees in the future and a fear among white supremacists about a change to their way of life. It can't be a coincidence. We are at a fork in the road where even if we now a murder investigation has been launched after thirty nine bodies found inside a lorry on an industrial order we can go further down that road of climate barbarism and build more walls and more economies built on incarcerating people but those are the kind of into a number of refugees who embarked on similarly dangerous journeys in search of safety there are three main ways to conceal yourself in Laurie but I found across the different stories I collected is that none of these methods to say they've all got risks people are at risk of death very and and so on and this this really is a constant I've spoken to dozens of people over the years if may journeys like this and one thing that really comes incidents of death and injury are happening all the time at the borders of Europe and other parts of the world people can suffocate inside lorries when when the the people smugglers at various so what determines the particular mode of transport and the method that people take are things like the amount of money believe in this in the way that they do now but we've had the IPCC we've had granted them Berg we've had David attenborough here the has been a sea change in opinion there has been a huge change to will never do it will never do it the exciting thing that I see is that there's a whole new Jenner in one of the storage compartments underneath the Laurie and the third is to actually hide in the container itself and that something that often is facilitated by is cutoff people can fall off and be hit by other vehicles on the road people get caught up in machinery if people to try and cross bodies of water then their risk of drowning and make decisions for themselves so when we see a tragedy such as the one in Saric is really important not only to see the people involved I'm in crudely put the more things weighing you down the more complicated and probably more expensive The method of travelers I strongly in the conversations I've had these people more than just passive victims in this situation they a trying often in the most difficult circumstances to retain control over their own lives resolve to border control there has been a pattern that we've seen in Europe for several decades now were INARA effort to stop people movie is that people feel compelled to make these journeys into take these risks in the first place what are they unable to get either in our home countries or other countries passer on the way a day unable to assess their rights unable to to build license themselves which be asking why and we should be asking what has our own government when an event like the one in Saric happens people are understandably very shocked and they want to know who's responsible and how we can prevent something like that inside the worst-ever such disaster in the UK was in two thousand when the bodies of fifty eight people from China were discovered in a container diver but these happening again but I think very often the knee jerk reaction is to say well this this is an example of how our borders are not tough enough that this is a lack of border control and what we need I grew up in the eighties and I was getting eighty s girl it's funny now because one of the things that's happened producers are Phil Maynard Jackson we'll be back tomorrow to do is bring in tougher measures to prevent people moving and prevent smugglers and traffickers from exploiting them not mistake I think that what this is victims of a crime which they may well be but to ask questions about what wants and desires and hopes and dreams what were they doing in order to try and achieve them uh-huh and there have been other similar disasters in recent years in two thousand fifteen Lori was discovered at the site of a motorway in Austria with the bodies of seventy one gene governments abroad in tougher and tougher measures and what that does is push people to take more dangerous routes it might stop some people coming but there will always be a certain number of people who will be into move even a great risks themselves the sorts of questions I think we should be asking are the L. trailing my thanks to him and Tacoma Klein this episode was produced by Cheek. Ask and Courtney Yousef sound design was by Iva manly the executive is Robin in this world we done to help or hinder people who are trying to make these journeys that was done.
US election 2020: who is supreme court nominee Amy Coney Barrett?
"Today with confirmation hearings aimed at making amy coney. Barrett. The next justice on the US Supreme Court. Due to start today we look at her life and career and ask what her appointment would mean for America. Where were you? When you heard Ruth Bader GINSBURG had died. While, I was at home because we're all at home these days and and it was like a punch they got really. She was someone who broke through barriers who used her intellect and the skill of her arguments to make the case that. Gender. Discrimination. Sexist exists and that it was something that needed to be legally fixed in our system you know and that was the legacy that she left behind. Which makes it even More disturbing for a lot of Democrats and progressives that legacy would now be replaced by. A woman with the record of. Barrett. If Donald Trump has his way and he will use the few weeks. Now, laugh before Americans go to the polls on November third to install his choice as the ninth Supreme Court. Justice. If successful, it would mean replacing a ferocious campaigner for women's rights whose work turned into a liberal icon with a deeply conservative judge whose values push in the opposite direction. Critically the move would shift the balance. So starkly in America's highest call some fair, it could see key rulings protecting civil rights overturned and even hamper the ability of Democrats to change laws for decades to come. From The Guardian I'm. Donna. Today focus. Who is Amy Coney Barra, and what would her appointment medium for the US? Stephanie when Donald, trump announced his nomination to the supreme cool. What did we know about? Thank you very much Mr president she grew up in Louisiana. and. Attended Notre Dame law school where she graduated the top for class and she is an appeals court judge in a very conservative circuit. The president has asked me to become the nights justice and as it happens, I'm used to being in a group of nine my family and she's the mother of seven Emma Vivian. One fact about her that really sets apart from the current justices. Benjamin, she's very young. She's forty eight years, old Vivian and John Peter. As the president said, we're born in Haiti and they came two of her children were adopted. and. She has talked openly about the kind of work life balance. The struggles our children obviously make our life very full that command postponed for doing the lion's share of work at home as it has turned out, Jesse does far more than his share of the work of she joked to my chagrin in the now infamous rose. Garden ceremony I learned at dinner recently that my children consider him to be the better cook. And she is a devout Catholic and you know her faith is definitely important to her. It's quite sad isn't it but? It's a joke if the kids prefer their fathers cooking, but clearly, this woman is potentially about to become hugely influential in the ways that Americans live their lives. How did you go about finding more about? Well, of course, we're interested in judge Barrett's judicial record and the decisions that she's made so far. Those are really important to try to judge what kind of a Supreme Court justice she will be. I personally was also interested in her views on some of the most important issues that are likely to come before and just to keep in mind she's someone who at being only forty eight years old no term limits could be an influence in the court for you know decades possibly half a century. So this is someone who we really want to know. You know what makes her tick so as a one of the things that was really interesting to me was that very. Little. was known about a religious group that she is believed to be a member of we are the people of praise. It's called people of praise very secretive and that I'd never heard of before they describe themselves as a community of Christians there about seventeen hundred members in the country I have talked to former members and I'll be doing more reporting on this to talk about an environment that is very controlling. It's very community oriented in the sense that the community comes before the individual one is expected to give five percent of one's earnings. One is expected. If one is asked to take in other members, for example, there's a big aspect of communal living his occult. There are people there are former members who say that it is a cult or it's called like for Sharp and how sure we Kenny Barrett involvement we know that she has served as a trustee is latest 2017 on a school that is affiliated with people of praise. We know that her father was one of the leaders and one thing that I've reported is back when she was a student and Notre Dame Amy Coney, Bart actually lived in the home of one of the founders of people of Praise sincerely in Christ. Kevin ran again and his wife I should say also for Dorothy and for me in their family home, this hadn't really come out before the Holy Spirit and what do you the significance of is I think the significance is it really shows us how close she is to this group from what I've gathered. She was born and raised in this Christian organization. It appears that she met her husband at the time when she was living in this home of this co founder people have praised he also was living in the house according to public records, and we know that it's an organization that tries to have some say over who people date and who they marry. So it's Pretty interesting. What's also interesting is that according to some excellent reporting by the Associated Press? We know that her children's birth announcements and so forth were all announced in the people of praise magazines having said that those magazines have now been removed from the website of people of praise and mention of Coney Barrett and of her family have been removed they explain that shift well. I've tried to get answers about this and have just been told that it's not appropriate for them to talk about her personal life, and while clearly a lot of us would think it was quite strange to hear of a group, the carried out communal living in that way or specific things about people of praise that would suggest a worrying sign that Barrett was linked to them. There just isn't very much known about this community that she has been a part of her life for so long and what is worrying to me is that there's a sense that it is. Off Limits, it's sort of understood in Washington. The Democrats are not going to ask her about this because they say, you know we're not going to ask about religion her faith is her own business. We don't want to appear to be anti-catholic. Now as a reporter I think that there is really a distinction between grilling her on her faith, which I think is not constitutional not democratic. There are no religious tests for becoming a Supreme Court justice and asking her about a very little known organization that she's been. So closely affiliated with any affiliation with any organization ought to be. Disclosed, she ought to be asked about it. You Know How to entering a covenant, which is what we believe. She's done. She's entered a covenant with with this community and. How is that going to affect being a judge? Testimony autograph before the Committee. Will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the. So, help you God, how's this question faith and how it could influence because the judge come up before and we'll start with Miss Barrett it has cannot before at in a disastrous way for Democrats I would say in an episode that has essentially poisoned the wells forever raising it again. In two, thousand, seventeen, she'd already come were the Senate on. Thank you chairman Grassley I'd like to thank Senator Young become a appeals court judge. One of the senior members of the Senate Judiciary Committee Dianne Feinstein, who is a Democrat from California, just like to say professor that seem to be tiptoeing to this issue of faith. Why is that? So many of us on this side have this very uncomfortable feeling. that. You know Dogma and law are two different things. and. I think whatever a religion is it has its own dogma. The law. is totally different. And she made a statement which was when you read your speeches. the conclusion one draws. Is that the dogma lives loudly within you. And you can see that any coney Barrett a sort of looking back at the senator and. That's of concern. To me looks like a deer in the headlights look when you come to big issues that large numbers of people have fought for for years in this country, there's a sense of shock that anyone who dare to say this to her bruce respond to that notion that a real commitment to religious faith. Is At odds? With. Your impartiality as a judge, and from that moment, she denied that her faith would have any influence on her role senator. I. See no conflict between having a sincerely held faith and duties as a judge and where I confirmed I would decide cases according to the rule of law beginning to end and in the rare circumstance that might ever arise I can't imagine one. Sitting here. Now, where I felt that I had some conscientious objection to the law, I would recuse I would never impose my own personal convictions upon the law. It became this moment where conservative Catholic said this is an example of anti Catholic bigotry and it's anti religious and it just shows again that Democrats are out of touch with no people who have a religious faith. Of course, it's pretty unfair seeing as the Democratic nominee Joe Biden is profess to be a very religious Catholic and talk three openly about his faith. K. Given Amy Coney barris strong denial. The religion would ever influence her work. Let's look at her career as she's only forty and she's risen right to the top tell me about how she got there. Well, the golden key to the Supreme Court is to serve as a clerk for Supreme Court justice. It's really the best young legal minds get picked for these roles. Amy. Coney. Barrett served as a clerk for Justice Antonin Scalia which I think it's fair to say became a defining moment of her career. Justice Scalia is considered one of the most if not the most important legal minds conservative jurisprudence in modern American history and people have said she was his favourite clerk that association is just an immediate kind of pass that she would be the right kind of justice for conservative. America. And when she did become a judge, you think these experiences influenced the type of judge she became. Well her Lille. Record is actually not very long. It's only three years that she's been an appellate Judge Shoe, the law professor before that at Notre Dame. But. We see in her decisions that she's very much in line with Scalia's view of the law. In fact, her decisions have been largely dissenting opinions meaning she's been in the minority, but they're still informative about her points of view on things like abortion where she has argued favor of laws that were restrictive of abortion rights in laws are overturned but she supported. The laws should be able to remain on the books laws about, for example, parental consent an abortion know there was an effort in Indiana to tighten those rules was overturned by the Appeals Corp she argued to support those laws. So what you're saying is that as an appeals court judge. Her religion did have an influence on the way she behaved I, think she would argue to play devil's advocate here I think shoot argue that those were her decisions based on her reading of the law. and. A Bush will obviously be a key area for conservatives. What else has she said about this? Well, we know that publicly Amy Coney Barrett has said, Roe, v Wade which gave women the right to have an abortion. She said that is the precedent and Casey and its progeny as you say row has been affirmed many times and survived many challenges in the court and it's more than forty years old and so it's not open to me up to me and I would have no interest in as a court of Appeals Judge challenging that a precedent. You might think, okay, she has accepted that that is the law of the land. But her legal decisions up until this point tele different story and her. Personal views on the matter which the Guardian discovered and wrote about really tell different story tell me about that. So somebody pointed me in the direction of that had not been discussed during her two thousand seventeen confirmation hearing, and that is that there was an ad that appeared in two thousand and six. It was an ad that is actually published every year. A very, very conservative, somewhat call it an extremist anti choice group. They're called right to life Machina, and on this two page ad which Amy Barrett signed as well as husband Jesse it calls for the reversal of Roe v Wade. So this is really important and interesting because while her personal views on abortion has been known know that she has is personally opposed for reasons of her religious faith. What Republicans have said as those are her personal views, she is a judge who will make decisions based on the law. And the this ad is so important is because it not only states her personal opposition to abortion, but her personal physician to Row v Wade as Loftland. The other part of the ad that I think is worrying from the perspective of people care about reproductive rights in our country is this line and and this is actually really caught me in my reporting. This is what really stood out to me. The line that said we believe life begins at fertilization. So the word fertilization is actually pretty interesting in this context because it immediately brought to my mind the practice of. In vitro fertilization because in vitro fertilization fertilization can literally begin in a petri dish. So I called up the right to life group and I spoke to the executive director there and I asked her what was really their view of IVF, and you know there was no hesitation they believed that there are aspects of the in vitro fertilization process that ought to be banned and even criminalised specifically what the director told me was. When and this is very frequent for anyone who's been through IBS would know about it. They are often in excess of embryos that are created or frozen, and then once someone becomes pregnant doesn't want to use his aim more those are often discarded. So from the point of view of this right to life group which amy coach Barrett associated with now. that. is equal to having an abortion. It it. It is It represents a very extreme point of view even within the. anti-choice community and it would really risk the criminalization even of I doctors and possibly patients who make decisions about discarding embryos terrifying it is. And it's worth just pausing for a minute to understand why they fish you has. Both political sites in the US into such a spin whether it's the right desperately trying to get this nomination through all the left in despair over. This is a call that has protected the rights of women and the Lgbtq community, but also I, for example, the sweeping healthcare reforms put in place by Barrack Obama when he was president. So. This nomination. That would shift the politics of the Supreme Court is critical. I really can't be overstated and we begin with historic grueling on Obamacare at the supreme. Court very strong reaction to ruth? GINSBURG was alive. The court could have been considered the Roberts court chief. Justice Roberts. Many tonight pointing to this man, the conservative chief. Justice. John Roberts twice now saving obamacare chief. Justice. Roberts was. Essentially a swing vote. Now, he is a conservative the Conservatives while repeater games was alive had a clear majority five four. But what we saw was that uncertain issues Justice Roberts swung too left aligned himself with the Liberals on the court on really key defining decisions like for example, the upholding the affordable care act with the answer to that crucial question would obamacare survive. Did it was stuff. So Walla was a conservative court. There were always a chance that Justice Roberts might swing with the liberals that possibility with Amy Coney Barrett if she is confirmed has basically evaporated and I just read this one line by a professor at Washington University Lee Epstein which I thought was just so succinct powerful, which was that Emi Coney Barrett's confirmation to the court transforms the court from being just as Roberts's court to being Donald. Trump's court. And so even if Donald Trump is voted out of office, come November third. His stamp on this court will last for decades literally. Where you're counting on not only Justice Roberts to swing with the left, but you need an even more conservative justice. So in this new reality, someone like Brett Cavanaugh becomes the swing justice. Now, anyone who knows about Brad? Kavanagh can say whether they think that's likely to happen. Supreme Court agreed to hear a case about the affordable care act the. So for another vote very soon on November, the Tammy, and this will be the third time. The Supreme Court has taken up what would we expect to happen? In a world or amy, Coney Barrett's sits on the court. Even Justice Roberts Robertson's decision to vote with the Liberals will uphold the affordable care act and we know that she's been critical of Justice Roberts there were some remarks that she's known to have made after his twenty twelve decision, which was very controversial among conservatives to uphold the law that she thought that he had essentially gone overboard that it was not in line with the reading of the Constitution to support this piece of legislation I mean these are supposed to be legal decisions but from what you're saying, they become intensely political decisions. it couldn't be more political. We are in the middle of a deadly pandemic Americans suffered bore lives loss than any country you know we have two, hundred, ten thousand. Dead Americans and. We are looking at a court that We'll be hearing arguments on November tenth to strike down a law that has extended healthcare to literally. And millions of Americans in a country where people don't have enough healthcare and you never know there are surprises you know maybe it will spiciness just to sort of unseemly to strike down a law like us under the current circumstances but I don't think they'll be too much hope the dismantling of the affordable care act has been the desire of the of the right for many years now, and if they have the opportunity though Tak-. Coming up, this isn't just about policy issues. If Amy Coney Barrett takes a seat on the court, some believe it could influence the outcome of the next election. Stephanie. This could happen within weeks could an ad so what will be the first thing? This new-look Supreme Court might be dealing with if she's confirmed the first. Immediate. Concern is that if there's any election related challenge in the Biden trump election that amy conybeare will be on the court that decides that and again, it will be a six three conservative majority that will determine that results. So obviously, we've seen that the Supreme Court oversaw essentially decided in favor of George W Bush when he became president of versus Al Gore. Thousand Continue. Just. Clothing that very close election. At, the Supreme Court, this morning more please we're filed dealing with the manual recounting votes now obviously an extraordinary decision and you know we don't know if that's GONNA come up. Okay. So you've told me about a lot of things that might be at stake A-. Bama. Care the process of the election women's rights with Roe v Wade. What about other minority rights I think the other real danger for Progressive America is that gay rights specially, the right to marry is possibly overturned. The court actually decided not to take a case of the took another look at the landmark decision to extend gay rights and to make gay marriage legal with to the conservative justices stated in their opinion that they did in fact, find this decision to be worthy of scrutiny and perhaps reversed. Wow, that is really chilling because it's almost like a statement like we're not gonNA take this case we might just wait until there is a sixth conservative vote. An environmental legislation is. Clearly, a concerned for progressives could that be threatened to? Yes. So if a future President Biden past something like the green new deal. That would be the kind of thing that would come before the court. and. You would likely see challenges by the you know energy industry. For example, I mean I'm just giving the likely scenario that there's passage of some sweeping laws that those get challenged by industry that it ends up at the Supreme Court and those kinds of really you know big legislation to tackle some of these huge environmental problems to tackle the climate crisis guess reversed. This should be a straightforward and prompt confirmation should be very easy. Good luck. It's going to be very quick. Since that moment in the Rose Garden West. So many powerful Republicans lined up to star Barrett's confirmation process. We've had quite a significant development, which is perhaps because of that event itself at least eight people who attended the Supreme Court nomination ceremony at the White House last weekend have now tested positive for cove nineteen. Does that mean fifty base might now happen before the election? If you asked me a week ago whether any coney barons definitely be confirmed I would have said, yes, there is nothing that is gonNa stop this from happening. Of course, you know in the in the wake of the super spreader event and includes two members of the Senate Judiciary, committee north, Carolina Senator Thom Tillis, and Utah Senator Mike. Lee. Have both contracting the virus. It definitely has created the slight possibility that there's for example, noth- sick Republicans who are truly ill and cannot attend hearing to vote I. Don't think anyone is really holding their breath of that's going to happen. Now already. Some of the same individuals who tried every. Conceivable dirty trick to obstruct Justice Gorsuch. And Justice Cavanaugh. Lining, up to proclaim the third. Time. Will be the charm now. There is one car that Democrats hold and that is the threat that they've been making that activists have been making, and that is to add more justices to the court they want to pack the court. So the Constitution does not state that Supreme Court needs to have nine justices The number nine was settled on back in eighteen, sixty nine in the years before that, the number of justices was moved around. Now the last time this became a serious discussion was in nineteen thirty seven. When FDR was getting lot of his proposals you know blocked by the court. So he was basically threatening to add more justices and all that would require is you know it be a law passed like any other law right now it is being discussed as a possible remedy for Democrats if they should take control and Joe Biden has been asked about this and he is in a very wise political move. Not Commenting Joe Biden has refused to answer the question. So I think the American people really like to know if judge Amy Conybeare it is confirmed that the Supreme Court of the United States are you Joe Biden? If somehow you win this election going to pack the Supreme Court to get your way it would be hugely controversial the least probably half the country thinking it was over step by Democrats. The American people are voting right now and it should be their decision. About who will serve on this most important body for a lifetime I think that there's of you right now that Republicans have used their power you know as A. Sledgehammer and the decision to nominate and the eventual confirmation. Of judge a Barrett is really case important that let the American people fill that seat in the White House and then fill that seat on the United States Supreme Court and the Democrats perhaps have not been willing to to go the same distance when they've had power. Whether. It happens or not is an open question. It sounds pretty hypothetical at the moment and say, let me finally just bring us back to what I guess is the most likely scenario right now. which is the Amy Kenny Barrett take see in the supreme core potentially within weeks. What would that mean for America I think what it would mean for America's that even as the country becomes. More Democratic that even as we see, you know states like Texas becoming more purple and potentially blue because of demographic changes across the country that the laws that are passed to make the country more progressive to reflect those changing views that those. Are stopped dead in their tracks by Supreme Court. That holds a six three majority for decades and decades to come. Stephanie thank you very much. Thank you. That was Stephanie Catch Gassner an investigative reporter at Guardian us do go to the Guardian Dot Com to read her brilliant reporting around this and around many other issues. She's also previously done a really interesting episode of today and focus with us about an S. O. Group. I do recommend you listen to that as well. Thank you for listening as ever and thank you for all your reviews and feedback. You can always tweet me at. Anouchka Astana. Not, set, for today, this episode was produced by Rosedale our bt. Sound design was by Akzo Kukuchi the executive producers on Cold Jack said and Phil may not. We'll. Be Back Tomorrow.