18 Burst results for "Anil Dash"

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

13:16 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"It's all coming through to you governed by a company that happens to control facebook and instagram. And what's up. which is facebook controls? All three of these things imagine what our society would be like. Imagine how much of what N. he's been feeling describing right this way I used to think about other the things I used to do. Other things right. At least you have the capability to do that. If in the speculative world you didn't have that reference right your entire consciousness your political conscious the social consciousness religious consciousness ethnic consciousness would be dictated by whatever is being amplified by facebook's algorithms. Well I said. It was speculative fiction or science fiction. It's actually what just happened in Myanmar right in Myanmar. In two thousand fourteen people went from a situation that was media who are about as media porous anyplace in the world to a place that is media rich but specifically guided by facebook so think about all the different ways that our society has been free by pushed by distorted by facebook. We have nothing to complain about. Compared to what people are encountering right now and not coincidentally Donnelly in Myanmar. We see genocide. We see the frames of the possibility of justice democracy. Right we thought five years years ago that democracy is GonNa take hold me and it'd be the greatest story of the last two decades it turns out not so much right and we see similar dynamics playing out in other parts of the world where her even though there had been other media forms. They've all desiccated as facebook has taken over everything places like Sri Lanka the Philippines. Indonesia Cambodia Kenya Nigeria. These are the places where the action is right so again as much as we think we are suffering nothing nothing compared the rest of the world. So it's really telling because these are generally communities in countries where they sort of got the pure still like the you know the the crack that cocaine version of facebook right like so the handed to them without the general. They didn't get the frog being boiled gradually over time. They're like we're dropping you in the the deep end your narrative right and so you go from media poor or less technical technologically fluent directly into to the hyper optimized version of this social media. And you get repeatedly mass violence not oh this is fake news but people killing thing each other you know. We've we've been able to here in the United States. We've experienced violence as well. Perhaps not as directly attributed to one company. Let's certainly amplified defied by many of the dynamics that are sort of central to what facebook doesn't and so it's not like the world's immune to it but again like as horrible as things have been they could be worse and they could get worse so if you want to know where we're going look at Brazil right look at India because that's where you're starting according to see media ecosystems that more more resembled hours really shift into facebook only or an instagram only or facebook major or what's at major environment so I feel like a lot of us who look at technology. It's GonNa get worse right. which is a very cheery message but there's also this sort of threat thread of of optimism and context and one of the things that two things that really jumped out of things that we were getting ready for this conversation one was There is another Internet that has existed and did exist before all these tools and and so much perspective. What you all talk about is a little bit of history? which as we record for this? Most of the people in the room are old enough to remember this but there was a time before we were all on facebook. There was a time before even maybe for we had Internet access and certainly before smartphones. I don't think we've anybody WHO's twelve years old near and so there's a very recent bias to this. Yes we're we're like this almost the world that we're in the world we've always had but it but we can if we squint our minds. Remember back to a time before this the other sort of Really interesting being jumped out as we prepare for this conversation. was that see. You're now teaching Sarah's book for your upcoming class that's an excellent book it's great. I'm the screen green plug in. We'll have all the links but get it but I'm curious about why is that a framework you think we should be teaching and then obviously Sarah sort go to pick up the baton. Sarah decided Many years ago before anybody else caught on that something interesting was going on the these companies facebook and Google being the most was prominent of them. Were interested in making sure that garbage doesn't show up in their platform very much. The obvious example is pornography right. Google and Y- it's subsidiary. Youtube has never wanted to offer easy access to pornography because that ruins the experience for most people you would not have have a level of comfort and faith in how you interact with Google if every search you did came up with some pornography site or multiple pornography sites heights and given the number of the number of double entendre in English language. That's entirely possible right so so they've been for a couple of decades now hiring I'm sorry. Outsourcing outsourcing the job of of filtering. What in many cases an easy call right so someone is torturing? I'm an animal. Someone is committing a obvious sex act. It's in these companies interest in not have that easily available double or available at all. Well who's going to do this. Work are these companies centered in. This place is incredibly expensive to live and people all demand a fairly high wage hire people in inside their company and give them access to their cafeteria and they're massages and have them do this most horrible of jobs pay them six figures. Maybe that would be nice. That's not what happened. Sarah tells the story of what happens when they decide to make someone else's problem literally in every way but by outsourcing it to another company and by putting these workers through really debilitating experiences but it goes beyond that because it goes to all of the questions we should be asking about what the responsibilities are these companies companies. In general. I WANNA I wanNA pause because I want to hear Sarah talk about that. You know what that working Tom Boy If if my trip needed to be made in any way that just let me tell you thank you so much so to kind of draw out out on on something. You were You were saying to contextualized my work. I think and I think all of us have this Going on to acertain extent there is a tendency in Silicon Valley to be not only a historical but I might even say anti historical To to to live in a inside of mythology that pretends that everything has sort of organically developed for the first time in whatever for the beginning of Hester right whatever iteration of the product it is and what what I endeavoured to do in the book and so many ways was is to show This ecosystem that you've described and its its implications for all of us but also to remind us into contextualized these platforms. TMZ is actually being very very recent phenomenon we're talking about two decades Max That these particular companies and their products have really we come to dominate and stand in for what we call the Internet and I think what's interesting about all of us. I may speak for us on. The stage is that this isn't a group of people who are against against technology. Hate the Internet don't like media. It's actually quite the opposite We cut our teeth on nascent. Internet most of us that looked it really different from the closed enclosed ecosystem that is so highly profitable and commercialized today. And so the story of the workers who clean up a social media sites I think really directly connects to a another way another version of the Internet It wasn't you know this isn't a Pollyanna kind of story about how great it was. There were trolls. There were all kinds of. There's all kinds of nonsense going on but but the scale was different the The the I think the impact was different and couldn't be as broad platform billion people on correct and you know what I'm here to say. Maybe it might not be a good idea to do that right. I think some other folks have that thought too. Actually I was just thinking about this like so much of the research would you done. Are these communities that were vibrant and thriving and meaningful to people. These weren't these weren't like some. You know one off sort of thing but that that narrative goes away because they simply didn't have a billion people on the right like what what are what are some of the like you think about some of the communities that you have been able to provide evidence Avin Alvin documentation of like what are some of the most jump out that are stories that people don't know well one I will highlight. Is this thing that was called the Afro Net. And I'll put that out there because it was built by a guy named Ken Anwar. WHO lives here? In Austin Texas now built it when he was at University of California San Diego and the effort was simply a network of all black folks. They were distributed across the country but it was a network built for them to connect so it was still a kind of internet in that we did. Not and people did not necessarily know they weren't the same geographical place but there was an underlying ethic of care concerned concerned connection that drove the technology and it wasn't about the fetish is up that technology per SE. It was what could wait. Could you do with it and what I could do with. It was reach out if I'm in a community where there are a lot of people like me or people who understand what it is and how I'm living. I could find that person if I WANNA look for a different you know love interest. There was some possibility I could get my car and drive out to California from Texas if I met the right right person but again it was about the people and I think that was the come back to service book and I told her before this and I just finished reading reading the book and it was so horribly impactful because of the underlying disregard I think four people that was represented in the workers that are driven to do this work but also this communities still echo go into current culture in current moments where the best things that we see online we talk about something like black twitter which is so culturally generative live. Has these these this history in these routes in these early communities one of the standout moments to me that was totally surprising and really exciting as as a geek of a certain certain age was Salons when she dropped her last record did it on black planet right and this was a this is a site that gets overlooked up to Asian Avenue by planet there was a whole cohort of identity based communities and the early days of social. But it's not one hundred years ago fifteen years ago so it's not like you have to get like a stone tablet to see but you have somebody who's a very vital artists who bridges a lot of really interesting communities and she wanted to book. What what that community meant like what do you think that signify? What is she calling back to their? I mean I think she's calling back to you know here's I wanNA find my people which is hard to do when and you have platforms an Internet. Now that is just so beyond scale and I want to find the people who I know. Have my back who understand and it may not be that they agree with me necessarily but we we got each other and I think that's what that really represents and to to to think about something that goes into a community that is not always fraught with kind of battle and conflict but as my friend Andre Brock likes exited about just pure joy like I can get pleasure in this platform by being with people and not having the conversation. Approving Bang are defending against trolls in the tax whenever a harm coming out there too. So it's interesting because I think of that example of somebody that's launched. We're like we don't think of celebrities. We don't think of artists as having been exploring the early Internet right but it was pretty common. There were millions of people. There wasn't that wild and salons is maybe like Alpha millennial right like sort of like this is a definer of this culture and you spend ton of time thinking about Celebrity in about millennial culture curious about that fluency of you know growing up with this and also also seeing it evolve like is that is that widely understood. You feel like that's been erased by the modern era of social platforms..

facebook Sarah Myanmar Google United States Youtube cocaine Austin Texas Indonesia Donnelly Andre Brock Bang Tom Boy Hester Avin Alvin Nigeria Philippines Ken Anwar
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

08:46 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"Then over and over and over they keep diminishing it they keep sort of saying no no no. It's not as serious as we said. And yet you've got the data and you've got the information and you can show that this is a problem. That is incredibly serious and I it's it's extraordinary to hear that sort of Still you have that that desire that posted to assume good intent and to sort of think the best best but after a while. Don't we kind of have to say this is a strategy. This isn't just they. Keep making the same mistake over and over. This is an intentional. And so far far pretty effective attempt to downplay their complicity. In this. I think these companies are full of ernest whether they're product designers Sir engineers data scientists policy. People they are packed with wonderful people who WanNa see this issue solved as much as you and I and I think the the elephant in the room here is that I'm at least beginning to get a sense and a lot of people working in the space are beginning to get a sense is that there's a huge divide between the leadership of these companies who are risk averse. Who Don't want to move fast to solve these problems who may be afraid of certain political repercussions and the hundreds or thousands of people that work for them? That did join these companies. Denise for the promised you know you and I and others felt that his promise that these companies had for humanity but as leaders of these companies they also need to realize it's not them against civil society or them against government or them against the people by not solving these issues with at scale and at the level that they know they should be solving them with they're also changing and poisoning the culture inside of their own organizations positions. And that's a danger the not to democracy that we care about but it's also a danger to the sustainability of the companies themselves That's extraordinarily here. And I. I think it does match what we see bubbling up. Whether it's you know the Google walkout which I think was also catalyzed around a lot of labor issues around you know harassment and things inside the company but but certainly a background to that at all. These big tech companies is their employees are the most expensive resource. They have and the thing they had to least control over And and it seems like accountability might come from the bottoms up there but one return to one of these other threads that you talked about an sort of what you advocate for for ways to correct or try to solve some of these issues and one of the things you flag is is real. You know what I think of from software sample choice almost a feature and the product which is go into the news feed go into the alerts and tell people hey turns out that thing you saw was false and you literally are talking about that. You're talking about in the same place in the APP where we see whatever headlines people are sharing we would see a correction a flag notification. We actually built this handy the website it if you go to fact book Dot Org. Act Book the Org. Then you can see what this design will look like. You'll see design that looks. It's like facebook today and what facebook corrected and it's it's a simple addition. Okay so we'll include a link to facebook in the show notes here so people can check it out but one of the things that when we talk about these kinds of solutions as people say well one there are people that believe in conspiracy theories and if a fact checker says this false else. Doesn't that make them double down so what. We've found going through the historical research. The behavioral and Sociological Research on. This topic topic is an every society in every group. Probably your Thanksgiving dinner. There's like one or two people that are you know very strong. They believe certain conspiracy very powerfully and society. That numbers you know between two to seven percent of people will believe a conspiracy. Is that like you know. Elvis was a -ducted and now lives on Mars or something like that now with that group of people you're right you do not want you know it will be very very very tough to convince them if they get a correction Even if the correction came from Jesus Christ it probably wouldn't believe 'em so with with that group of people but that's the minority and what this information particularly is focused on is not that small group of people who are often politically politically not extremely influential. But it's infecting the rest of society and the same thing with misinformation about anti vaccinations for example example Now what corrections do as the rest of society. The Ninety five ninety seven percents of society that I don't have these strong conspiracy theory. Beliefs am are defended when they get a correction so if someone saying that vaccines since cause autism in someone's spreading significantly on facebook and so forth. They can spread that within their small group but the rest of the population on facebook. FACEBOOK WON'T BELIEVE IT if they get corrections and where we think the focus should be is on the population that disinformation misinformation trying to infect in fact the broader population of society not the minority in the corner. We think of course it's worth doing research about how to change beliefs and transformed beliefs. But if we want to talk about impacting the political discourse polarizing society. It's not that group that you look you look at the broader sample of society lighted right so it's dissemination. It's it's it's what we call you know Reach or amplification exactly. And you you isolate you know it's kind kind of like corrections create a quarantine The offer people more information and average person who you know sees correction sees disinformation says a correction will be like. Oh what I read this wrong. And they'll stop believing it. And so you isolate that piece of bad information and so the platform companies and I talked to them a lot and they all tell me we're doing all this. We're doing this work. We're we're starting to flag. Things were starting to reduce reduce the reach of things that are known misinformation and and they keep insisting there fixing a lot of this stuff and then at the same time. They'll sort of be a little defensive. So they'll say well. Yeah okay if if Macedonian teenagers made pages for black lives matter and for blue lives matter. What isn't that okay? Okay because aren't there really supporters for black lives matter to people who are pro police like those exists. So why shouldn't teenagers in Eastern Europe be able to make such pages. This I feel is is divergent tactic right because nobody is claiming that these eastern European teenagers don't have a right to create these pages. They have a right. Let them create these pages. The problem becomes one. These pages are used to spread this information in with a purpose of malicious harm or for economic gain because then the creation of these pages stops becoming think about I WANNA share my opinion or I want to bring people together in this group to talk about blue lives matter. It becomes about manipulating deceiving receiving pupil for profit or for political goals. And that's what we're trying to stop and again this the solution in correcting the record we you don't say remove content we don't say Remove pages because we believe in freedom of expression and it can become very dangerous if pages are being removed deleted. What we're saying is just add more information to the information ecosystem so when you see these types of tactics one when you see these types of pages spreading disinformation and you add corrections? What will happen is your average American man man or woman who's following one of these pages if they could a correction once twice three times that says the content on this page is XYZ or is disinformation formation? And here's a correction. They'll stop trusting that page and if they stop trusting their page you remove the militias incentives and you the move people towards better content more healthy content without taking away the right of the Macedonian teenager to create a facebook page. That should never Happen we'll have more.

facebook behavioral and Sociological Re Google ernest Denise harassment Eastern Europe Elvis
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

15:19 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"We've been exploring what trust means when it comes to the Internet technology and social media for a lot of people the two thousand sixteen. US election represents the moment when they lost all their trust and social media whether it was attention hacking or foreign interference or the way Ardita were being used against us. You literally could not trust the information that was being presented to you and your timeline. The aspects of the Internet there were supposed to help us connect to each other. Aaron share information together. We're used to undermine the election and to undermine democracy itself but if you fast for three years most of us are still on facebook. We're still on twitter. was stolen all these networks and that's despite the fact that all have gotten worse the bad actors people who want to manipulate these networks. They've gotten better better. At exploiting the weaknesses of social media they know how to exploit the Algorithms and they sure as hell no manipulate the social media companies themselves because the truth is these companies are so afraid of accountability that they would rather let themselves be party to rigging elections and skewing votes then into actually holding their feet to the fire and saying we got to make some changes so as we head into the two thousand twenty election. Guess what disinformation misinformation. They haven't been solved there at an all time high. But if you've been listening to this season to function you know I'm interested in how we fix it. How do we rebuild trust on the Internet because it's not like we can log off? It's like we can sign out. The Internet isn't going anywhere so for this last episode of function this season I reached out to Avaz. Avaz is a really interesting nonprofit. And it's because they focus on solutions they're trying to a bill that world that we all say we want part of that world we all want is an internet. That doesn't spy on US and doesn't lie to US and sure as hell doesn't undermine our elections actions.

US Avaz facebook Ardita Aaron twitter.
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

01:57 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"That question <Speech_Male> about how <Speech_Male> information <Speech_Male> spreads online. <Speech_Male> What's causing <Speech_Male> it to happen? The social <Speech_Male> media <Speech_Male> is so how important <Speech_Male> is so fundamental. <Speech_Music_Male> And <Speech_Music_Male> it's what we're going to go deep <Speech_Music_Male> want in the next episode <Speech_Music_Male> of function. <Speech_Music_Male> I hope <Speech_Music_Male> you'll join us. Go even <Speech_Male> further into getting <Speech_Male> ready for twenty twenty <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> <Speech_Music_Male> taking a look at the role that <Speech_Music_Male> social media <Advertisement> has <Speech_Music_Male> and being part of <Speech_Music_Male> the political and journalistic <Speech_Male> process that we <Speech_Music_Male> all rely on <Speech_Music_Male> <Music> <Speech_Music_Male> <SpeakerChange> function <Speech_Music_Male> is produced. I Bridge Armstrong <Speech_Music_Male> <Speech_Music_Male> Glitch Producers <Speech_Music_Male> Kisha. Tk <Speech_Music_Male> Do tests <Speech_Music_Male> the shot. Kerr was <Speech_Music_Male> the executive producer <Speech_Music_Male> of audio for the Vox <Speech_Music_Male> media podcast <Speech_Music_Male> network and <Speech_Music_Male> our theme music music was composed <Speech_Music_Male> by Brandon McFarland. <Speech_Music_Male> <Advertisement> <Speech_Male> Thanks to the whole <Speech_Male> engineering team at vox <Speech_Male> and a huge. Thanks <Speech_Male> to our team at glitch <Speech_Music_Male> and <Speech_Male> you can follow me <Speech_Male> on twitter at a nail <Speech_Male> dash But you <Speech_Male> should also follow the show. <Speech_Music_Male> podcast <Speech_Music_Male> function all one <Speech_Music_Male> word. <Speech_Music_Male> Please remember to subscribe <Speech_Music_Male> to the show wherever <Speech_Music_Male> you're listening to us right <Speech_Music_Male> now and <Speech_Music_Male> also check out glitch dot <Speech_Male> com slash rush function. <Speech_Male> We've got transcripts <Speech_Music_Male> every episode <Speech_Music_Male> up their <Speech_Music_Male> APPs all kinds of stuff <Speech_Music_Male> to check out about the show. <Speech_Music_Male> We'll be <Speech_Male> back next week. And we hope <Speech_Music_Male> you join us in

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

11:36 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"Darker nine every month or so about it. I think we're at a point. Now where her between twenty five and thirty percent of the electorate in the US has been effectively siphoned off into a different media system where where trump is the leading source of information about trump and the rest of the new system effectively cannot get through or penetrate right and this is also a conspiracy world. And that's what this conspiracy world is strongest yes And of course it is the original and very strong bond between trump and his core supporters in the mall the net. But it's very important to realize that rejection of the information in the press is a condition of that bond. It's not a nasty word. He flings in his tweets. It is a form of political mobilization and it also promise keeping on trump's as as I said one of the things he ran on that he definitely delivered on. was these fucking media people. I'M GONNA put them down for you. Baby you just watch. You're you're going to humiliate them totally did and he completely delivered on that and continuing to deliver on that promise is the presidency is not like a weird feature weird weird bug it is it is the heart of his political method the heart of his political method so then you take an institution like the American press which has has difficulty changing under pressure right. It's it's not an on the fly. Institution because policymakers it's slow. It's it's slow to change right part but partly because it has to produce every day. It's not like you can stop pause. Let's let's let's redraw that or let's let's put a new operating system and there's no such thing just like everybody knew. The two thousand sixteen was a massive failure by the institutional press in the election but the next day they had to start. Oh my God. There's going to be a trump presidency. Now what are we going to do. What are we going to do like? It's already a huge even. Save Vodka. Puff pieces the idea of like well. Let's take some time in pause and think what happened in this election but that never happened. Because in journalism year under this constant pressure to produce in there and and one of the consequences of that is that you always make mistakes and things get printed and published that are resulted half done work right and so journalists are always vulnerable to criticism because their work is vastly imperfect. It has to be sent out every day. It would be like if you had to ship software every every day no matter what as good as it was maybe you get lucky right. You know we have the right now right. We're apple rushes out the IRS update because they got new phones coming out and there is like ran this version. Iowa's is all buggy in the in. The flashlight doesn't work and all this stuff's going wrong and you're like oh that's because they had a deadline in they had to get this out because the new phones had to come out and hopefully hopefully they'll fix it later but fixing later is okay. If it's like my I messages a little slow and laggy. Sometimes it's not okay. If you're like. We undermined an election. That bat situation. That always been there. It's been weaponized by trump. And so it's it's not just that people mistrust the New York Times this way. Beyond if they now have an information sphere that can allude the facts in New York Times and carry them all the way through the campaign to the we've gone to do the darkest depths. Now everything's broken. Everything's Doom yes. All the incentives are Mr Lyon we pessimism. Ah The optimist Me Still believes there's something we can do. I'm curious for me. As a engage social social media consumer somebody pays for journalism as much as I can. What can I do well? Of course you can support the news organizations whose work you US and that's obvious But I'm working on Better answered for that in my I Directorship of the members of the puzzle product which is a research project study membership models to support journalism. So our our founding distinction is between subscription membership subscription is a product relationship. You pay your money you get your product if you don't pay you don't get it if you're dissatisfied with the product you just stop paying. Everybody understands memberships different. You join the cause because you believe in the importance of the work if you join the cost because you believe in the importance of the work then you should be able to support it. Yes with your dollars which go to an open service that anyone can access it. That's part of what you're doing with your money. It's hard to what you want us. You're subsidizing forever right but also you can contribute if We create participation anticipation paths. Where you can actually improve our journalism directly for example a database of expertise? You have so that when we need it we can call on you. If you remember crowdsourcing projects try to bring a lot of distributed information together in one place through the members. Right lots of facts. You cannot otherwise fine unless you have lots of hands picking up stones right and collecting them so a better answer answer to your question would be when we have a fully developed notion of membership and people are involvement sustaining. The news organizations they support and they do so because they believe in the values and the way those those institutions are run and funded and they get the whole thing and they get why they're part of the business model not just a consumer of nunes right right and that they have to call out errors and they have to participate when necessary. Bats the future that I am optimistic amount. But we're not not there yet so to the point about the calling out and participating what about me is just a ordinary social media participant. I see manipulation manipulation and misinformation. All around me. Maybe I participate in it without even knowing. How can I be a better citizen? How can I be a better consumer of of media and a better sort of participants social media like what? What are the ways that I get exploited that I become complicit in these systems that I might not know about? Yeah anytime you're talking about something that lots of other people are talking about. And that's why you're talking about it. You're in a vulnerable position. 'cause it's possible that you were brought there wow and these platforms encouraged that they do. And that's one of the normal ways of using them I also try to observe this rule for myself. Don't always succeed of chill before serving. I think there's a great value in cooling down before war. It's not like self control so she'll be for serving and The the flip of the road accurate. I think it's really the important and I think you're quite aware of. This is really important not to sort of like joining gangs and you know what I mean like attention gangs. Yeah Yeah and I and I'm probably guilty of that sometimes. What you know myself lack you really have to watch it yeah? Attention gains can be desert about like networks like twitter. Like some of the most fun is when everybody's jumping nothing if if we're like we're joking about something and we're all having a good time but the line between that and the gang can be. Yeah I'll I'll tell you one more rule us on twitter and facebook to I don't do much on facebook anymore. But on twitter I try to be one hundred percent personal personal zero percent private so what I mean is everything that I do is an expression of of what I think what I think about would've what I care about. It's thank me it's like I wouldn't talk about it if I didn't care about it. So it's personal but zero is on private. That means you can't tell where I am. I don't talk about my family. I don't talk about my lunch. I don't I don't position myself in social space. It's J. N. Y. You this focused on the things that I know a lot about to you as as as a sort of public intellectual as voice of what you are but not as you you know and so that limits. Yeah What I can do? Do you think that's compatible with influence or culture today where people people are literally like famous because of how much they open up about. This is what I'm wearing. This is what I'm meeting. This is where I'm at. This is intended to limit influence. I WANNA limit mid influence to the thing that I'm expert in. That's the only kind of influence I can get gained from any other kind is actually lowering my The profile in where in ways that matter. Well it's interesting you're framing. There's sick to what you know. And that's a that's such a powerful foundation. It feels to me of both one how we can be responsible individually and what we doing social media and to and what we should demand demand of these platforms whether that platform is a journalistic incision or that platform is a a social media social networking technology institution. Maybe maybe asking them to stick to what they know. Maybe something that can reduce some of our our our abilities. Jay Thank you for joining some function. Thanks thanks for having me. So we've been taking this deep look at journalism in the current era of social media and the Internet and a trust broadly this entire season functions about trust on the Internet and it reminds me of a story of personal experience. I had back in twenty fifteen when marriage equality pass to the Supreme Court here in the United States like a lot of people I was celebrating. It was really exciting and one of the things that happened. That day is a lot of public spaces in public. Buildings got lit up with Rainbow Lights which was just incredibly moving. I had a friend. Send me a picture from the White House that lit up and Rainbow Lights and celebrating the decision and I took that picture in a couple others that I'd found online. That people were tweeting out out of rainbows lighting up everywhere in public and I put them all together into a tweet. Just sort of saying you know. This is a wonderful day and it wasn't until will I got tens of thousands of re tweets and people amplifying that message that I found out that some of those photos weren't from that day I had inadvertently vertically shared a message that was inaccurate. That tweak at so many re tweets it may be the most visible thing I've ever written in my life now now. This wasn't a lie. I think photos from a different day so it wasn't something where I was trying to mislead people but I had had a role in amplifying inaccurate information formation. All of us have a responsibility to think about the information that we share and the platforms. Don't always do a good job of reminding us of that. There's not often enough nudges to say. Is that really credible news source. Is that really the information you want to share and even maybe at a fundamental level. Is that even something that you're amplifying just because it feels good to you or because it's true. Those are the kinds of deeper tougher questions that really Dr. The spread of misinformation and disinformation online. They appeal to our more basic emotional instincts. Sometimes they're good they're celebrations sometimes. They're not.

US trump New York Times twitter apple facebook Iowa Mr Lyon nunes IRS White House Jay Supreme Court
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

08:30 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"On his promise Sony Way now there's another regular institution Russian of journalism that he broke. What we need is for the press to be somehow like meat and repair these and and replace replace them with something stronger built for this kind of information warfare? So this is. This is really interesting because what I'm hearing all. Oh this is exactly the kind of arms race we have in security and tack that we have in privacy intact where there's hackers that are constantly coming out and systems and you have to evolve your remodel. It is a kind of arms race. Roughly speak yeah and it's interesting too because you talk about the fact checkers and the the the the mechanism by which in fact checking works is shame. Yes right so if you say you said something it's not true what we're assuming is sort of an emotionally developed maturity. We're being caught in a lie. Makes you feel shame and stigma to the point where you addressed your behavior modulated at least to some degree. So so there's this feedback loop and what I see what this is an algorithm right and and I look at like Search engine optimization. This is like how to make your your content shop in Google. And they've been for fifteen years now iterating on this and I it was like make your page look a certain way and then it was make sure you got good headlines and then it was make sure you're you're your links work a certain ways that they they they gradually added on top of this layer upon layer of essentially hoops. You have to jump through if you wanted to publish online fine you wanNA share content online or you wanted the things you're selling in your store online to show up and Google. You would do these things. And it's funny. Because they would never. They didn't do a press release which is now all your links to be blue and bold letters B. Folk knowledge that we get shared and an a little bit of cargo cultism. Awesome right so there would be back in a form like I heard if you if you mentioned goats on Thursdays Your Seidel rank higher you know in Google and people would be like wow works for him. I'm going to try. And so that practice evolves in announced a billion dollar industry and it's evolved over fifteen years but google tried to rationalize a little bit. They sort of started to say. Oh we want to give give you a set of guidelines or rules. They would go to the conferences and meet halfway with its algorithm but but the point is the people that were playing this game were playing against a software algorithm that was created Google and that had enormous economic value absolutely I mean perhaps trillions of dollars of economic value is is tied up into this so there were enormous incentives to figure out how to game and then once it became clear that this was arms race between Google and these folks and there were at stop the under called the black hat and white hat. Seo Hacker systematic. They were security hackers. They they sort of settle all this out and inattention Heke. We don't have any of this narrative or any of this fluency so facebook has an algorithm for their news feet. It gets hacked by tension hackers regularly. They have grand pronouncements every every once in a while when there is a catastrophic failure on the scale of a ethnic cleansing or an election being undermines right and even then it is the sort sort of weird mush mouth back and forth where where facebook will say. Well we we are doing listening. Dinners behind the scenes with a couple L. A. People on the right and a couple of people on the left and we'll tell you afterwards after league to it is but nowhere near the systematic approach of what would happen if this were security hack is that intrinsic or do you think that strategic. Do you think they're sort of saying like 'cause I I basically think are you evil or you dumb right like that. That's the question question. Keep asking about everything these days and there's one way which is you're dumb and you don't know they're hacking you and so you just like having these dinners because you're like that's all psychiatric knows how to do the other is you're pretty nefarious. And you're like well. This'll put them off the trail and feel like we're doing something long enough for us to keep profiting off us. Yeah I really. I don't know but my my biases towards one part of this. which is they build a machine that they couldn't control and they couldn't know exactly what it was doing Sweet built this thing and in a sense no one is running in in that. There are the things that it's doing to the culture in the environment that we cannot track right. It's like a weather. It's too complicated to fully predict something like that. And we've and we built this thing and it's and the in in in that sense that's Pacific Sense. It is out of control. Nobody wants to say that nobody wants to hear that. Nobody in the regulators wants to really we know that yeah it Kinda like goes beyond our measures of troyer institutions are built for it. So I think it's like part of what happens at facebook especially especially is is that But also that they this might be strategic they keep themselves clinically stupid and and dump about media so that they can just blunder into. What the whatever's the easiest thing for the business they kind of like play like six layers dumber dumber than their engineering degrees would attest I think this is starting to change now? Because facebook is interacting with more critics than it used to and it has teams working and stuff where they need to consult with other people and they're learning what facebook but the part that really interests me and human. No more about this than I do is I wonder when these things begin to become huge factors in the recruitment of talent technical talent because I think technical talent has anybody has power. Here it's them. Yeah so that moment is right now. I know what what what we see in Tak and you know. I've talked to people organized to Google walkout a year ago and and and and lots of people. That's that's been my network for ten or twenty. Many years in this industry is is sort of the people who love tech but our dissenters within it. You know what I think. We all came to understand five or ten years ago. Was Consumer Boycotts Not GonNa happened. Nobody's GonNa stop looking instagram and disconnect themselves from their family on WHATSAPP almost no matter. What happens because you'd be completed anything in order to know how to talk to the people you love so given that there is not going to be a consumer boycott and we can't anyway but the amount of data they have then you have a challenge about how do you have any accountability and one you know? One vector is regulation but that's a very slow one somewhat by design also because a lack of fluency NC from policymakers and so then the big lever is their biggest expense which is people and their highest demand and with that resource worse. I already see it. People are way way more reluctant to go out there. They're not wearing their facebook eighty and they are looking at their options around where they want to work. When they're they're an engineer coming out of school and also there are a lot more competition for talent? So they're like you know the difference between an extraordinarily early wealthy salary in merely very very high salary. When you're twenty three and you just get your degree is like it's all monopoly money you know? It all seems like it's a fiction and so I think that that's starting to have some leverage. It is fascinating to watch but it gets into. That's the workers that's their leverage that will start to have some costs. I look at society though right. We're talking about these algorithms gamed. Were talking about whether it's playing dumb or being dumb this this this real social cost and you know going all the way back to the beginning you talked about journalism as a institution that serves the public and has has a role to play in a civil society and now the narratives are going talking about v State versus Fourth Estate. This is very very fundamental highfalutin language about the roles that things play in a functioning democracy and a functioning society. And you don't attention hacking sounds kind of trivial. It sounds like you know a kids playing online. This is people sharing memes but but at a fundamental level. You're talking about undermining elections you talking about destabilizing institutions that matter for civil society. How does this play out? How bad is this going to get? I am Um pessimistic and in a.

Google facebook Russian of journalism Sony Tak NC
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

10:13 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"The catalyst of this conversation is honestly the two thousand sixteen election here in the US and the twenty twenty election here in the US right. And there's many more examples all over the world. I I mean there are actually far more. You know examples of misinformation if I look at you know what's happening in Myanmar. It is even more serious and damaging but but but I think about this in the US. Here where these countries these companies are based the catalyst was what the heck just happened back in two thousand sixteen. And what's going to happen. That's even worse going forward and twenty twenty and and there's an interesting thing here I see which is as as a tech guy myself we look a lot of security and privacy and other sort of considerations like that and there are systemic weaknesses. You look at it exploits you look at hacks wchs get out of. How are they going to hack the system right? And it seems to me like the lack of of a informed perspective and bringing in journalistic functions editorial functions into the major platforms and the lack of fluency in things like the strengths and weaknesses of the view from nowhere were exploitable hacks. They weren't things that that that hackers just as they will find the weaknesses in your security the policies in and you're you're running an old version of the software and its exploitable. These were editorial organizations running an old version of the journalism software. That was very hackel. Not In the technical sense. You didn't have to be rush. Bought spammers all all the things that usually get. They get usually blamed here. All you had to be somebody who understands the explainable aspects of these legacy media systems that were adopted without fluency. And then you would be very helpful. I think that's done. I think. The news system evolving at a slower rate then within the network around it is exploiting the whole view from nowhere contains a flaw in the code in the sense that when the system them that makes Public Service Jones impossible under attack because there's a political movement that's generating capital from doing nat The code of impartiality and objectivity contains no instructions for what to do under that circumstance. And so that's how you get for example Mardi barons famous phrase. which is a very important fascinating trays? Where not and warwick work? This is his way of saying that we we have to. We have to stick to what we're doing right. We don't and we cannot be seen as anyone adversary so this that kind of idea. That's that's that's another example of your point that there's there are these flaws in the software. Where bad actors can overwhelm the system and And not take control of the news so much as like waste. Everyone's time denial service attack. It's a slow Sunday morning. Denial of service. That's yeah that's really. What because I think of this amazing shift that has happened? Where Nell the tech companies? Can't opt out the can't say work. We're not going to have this conversation. Congress calls for you to testify or or average consumers are like what are you doing about this. They have to engage in and and I think it's it's very telling they have an in this sort of stereotype of what technologist do chosen binary solutions. So we talk about something like political the lads As recently happened in the last few weeks I had to pay attention to that. FACEBOOK said okay. We're not gonNA. We're not gonNA filter any political ads and twitter's like we're going to ban them all and not take any money for them. You know the sort of this very like you know. Feast or famine kind of solution thing. Yeah and and it seems like both. Are this attempt like. I don't want to understand this problem. I want to not have this okay that I think you really hit it there. I WanNa not have this problem. Because that's what I have seen. In facebook's dealings leans with this this media political space where has power within the political communications world so it gets attacked as a player player. But it doesn't want to be a player so it can only accept opt out. Yeah it can only accept descriptions of itself that kind of vouch for its neutrality. So interesting and that doesn't actually describe what's going on so I'll give you an example when facebook was coming up with his original fact checkers Alliance it it collaborated with a group of non-partisan quote unquote fact checkers. ABC News in fact. CHECK DOT ORG and four. They announced the system. They emailed me and and said can we get your thoughts on this because we want to see how people are gonNA react. And I'm not a reporter so I didn't care about breaking the story so I said sure kind of thing I do all the time right so I said sure I'll take a look and I said this sounds reasonable but let me tell you within an hour of announcing this the right wing is going to say that these fact checkers. You've selected as careful John Practices and they're they're all plants of the Democratic Party. They just tools of this game has been spent game within an hour. They're going to like they're not going to accept that the ones you carefully selected are carefully selected. They go well. We're not trying to play any political role here. I said well doesn't matter if you're trying to say this is what they're gonNa we do right right. We don't think team only wins when they work the refs. They're never going to work the refs exactly and this. I'm I'm having a work the rest conversation. There's somebody who's saying things like well. We don't have an ideological ax to grind. And so why so that kind of facility vacancy you know. There's there's gotta be a function to that. I don't know what it is but do you think it's intentional or do you think they don't know what they don't know. I think they did for awhile. Awhile have a culture in which denying that you are a media company and that company was the party line wasn't was what the company effective strategy for a decade plus. Yeah that's what I mean. Yeah you can build. You can build a trillion dollar company on denying that you are what you are. And there's the additional factor of from the point of view of Targeting ads company. False information is just as good as true information information even better in some ways. That's the fundamental right here right. So there's there's this incentive system works designed aligned. Yeah the incentives are misaligned here because these truth teams the truth squad within these companies is only ever going to be a cost and and they will never make the company more profitable and they prevent scaling in their inefficient. Yeah in companies that prize efficiency almost above everything else so we have this set of incentives and we have a game -able oh system and now people are saying how do I take advantage of this. Yeah and when attention has monetary value. Because you have to pay attention attention on these platforms less. You can hack it right and here we come to the best hack. The most potent hack of the media system mood which is trump's own media we can't call it a strategy but its presence. Yeah intuitively very savvy. I don't buy that part but we can okay sure But there's no question than his. Let's say his styles political style floods the system with news uh-huh and almost all of it is news worthy by the criteria that existed prior to Donald Trump Like focused on conflict and who something new new original or the best definition all of news. Holy Shit do you. Can you believe like you're a very just on these. Like incredibly traditional simple grounds of newsworthy. When you check off your box checks every box pushes every buttons twenty four hours a day and because they've got this sort of factory model of how they monetize some and do you anyone with a factory model overdoses on this is like? This guy is a is a car factory that spits out cars. Twenty four seven for free right and so if you're a car dealer you're like great right. which is how we get to the famous statement by the head of? CBS sentences may not be good for America. uh-huh damn good for CBS. which is a famous line about? Trump doesn't media phenomenon. Everybody knows that now. The reason I bring this up is because he the everything he does is newsworthy. By traditional criteria the only way to not be controlled by him is to reconsider the criteria the algorithm. Yes because he broke your definition of news just as he broke the incentive system around fact checking Glenn Asir who is The Washington Post fact checker has said as many occasions that the difference between trump and other presidents is not is that when Republican and Democratic candidates and presidents. We're fact checking in the past. They would not like hold up their hands as you got me but they would do something to change the situation. There would attenuate the most. The worst excesses says yes Where they make the claim past Muster were they just stop saying it right and trump not not only doesn't do that he doubles and triples town and then he does something fervor which is he takes. The friction raised by these false statements and taps them as a source of energy for his base in his campaign is evidence of his correctness is the fact that earlier bareback they are and he's kind of like delivering delivering on a campaign. Promise which is that. I will put down annoy and drive these people crazy for you and each time. One of these fact checking flares layers you know jumps out of the fire. He's he's making good.

Donald Trump FACEBOOK US Myanmar twenty twenty ABC News twitter warwick Jones Nell Congress checkers Alliance Muster Glenn Asir Democratic Party John Practices CBS The Washington Post
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

11:41 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"Glad to welcome. Jay Rosen thank you very much now. There are people that have this deep and abiding reverence for journalism as an institution and yet almost like a priesthood. And that you had to protect it and you've never had that you've you've always been a little challenging of that and and I think one of the seminal sort sort of phrases that To me sort of typified your challenge of Okay. What does journalism is a role in the ecosystem? And how does the how do people within the institutions themselves was the view from nowhere. Yeah can you sort of for people who may not be familiar. Can you succinctly described the view from nowhere. Well that's my term for very well known pattern pattern in the American press but also other countries the press Where journalists tried to persuade us to believe in them by making a claim like this? I don't have a stake. I don't have an interest. I don't have an assumption. I don't have a party. I Dunno dog in this five no dogs but I'm just telling you the way it is so you should believe it because I have no view. My impartiality is my credential I sometimes called this view. looseness and As a presumed good so it happened within the evolution of American journalism that this became the dominant way to persuade people to who accept. Your account is to demonstrate that it has no stake interest bias and so not only was a profession bill on that claim but a market force was built on that came. Which is the Metropolitan newspaper? which eventually became more or less a monopoly product by appealing to everyone wants to those a commercial logic to it? There was a status logic to it which is in American culture. If you want higher status you can make more money but also you. You have to start acting like a profession. You have to say that that you that you deliver a public good that you some have some sort of elevated roles elevated commitment. You see what what does that based on like how. How do you Persuade Americans that you offer a public good so there's a rhetoric or narrative that you have to perform you have to say if you want America to believe that Your Institution Your Business. Your industry is good and important and must. SP defended in. Seems like the sort of the pillars of that are one. There is a public to your serving that public. And three you you do. So from above the fray being neutral having a point of view and it's interesting because it's been more than dozen years since you sort of formed this narrative of curry from nowhere and even if it's not phrased that way that framing of the the political discourse of the cultural discourse has become all pervasive. Everybody's sort of intuitively knows it. These days I think it's usually Phrased as both sides ISM right so if we have You know white supremacist gathering right. Then the news has to say well we hear from both sides and And ignores sort of the value that even attention in amplification in in an ecosystem have value separate even with the substance of the messages and that is one example of many. Wear the view from nowhere as I have called in breaks down or doesn't address what's going on. So that's what I've tried to do is name the part of what call Newsroom objectivity or professional objectivity name the part of it that we don't really need so that we can save the parts of it. That are good so when people talk about objectivity in journalism means ally different things. Some of them I think are like yeah. These are virtues right like being able to step back from your upbringing and see how people live. That's kind of objectivity of like I definitely want journalists. Who can do that right? Yeah so we have to do with this beast objectivity liberty which is like this. You know it's like a Blob Is You have to start naming the parts of it that work in the parts that so that the bad impulse they they didn't they didn't aspire to the things that are called objectivity are are the are the impulse to tell the truth to get evidence to show general. You don't have to rely just on my word. Look for yourself. All those things increase objectivity the kind of object with you we don't need is when the journalists pretends to be above it all all when they treat everyone else as if everyone else has an argument but they just have facts. These kinds of patterns. Don't do the president good they enrage users right and then with the coming of Internet as the baseline for discourse on this the people who are really dissatisfied by press practice have away to give voice to that you know it's it's different and when they are an atom atomised group that can't contact each other right right now all of a sudden they can they can say. Do you feel this way to do you feel this. Many other people feel this way right and they can quote unquote talk back and waiters emerge that represent their status actions actions and all that is a very different environment than when when I started studying the press right but the view from nowhere is increasingly under attack by events themselves. The well has lots of critics as well as general evolution in the way people think about this the yeah you know. The probably isn't a place above all the action from to a from which to view it. You're not a good thing about like claiming that so thank you for that framework because that gives us sort of common common ground where we have we have a vocabulary now. We have a perspective. And there's an interesting thing here too because one of the reasons it's so important to me to understand journalism and am media institutions as starting point is that we talk about a lot of technology as social media get right and and it used to be called social networking working yep and even before that social software in the tradition of Microsoft Word on on windows in the nineties and you know you fast forward twenty twenty years from there and what we have with media as a whole different set of assumptions but also people building this technology frame what they do in the language of media and journalism so so they talk about Mark Zuckerberg goes to Congress and talks about serving the public. Our policy is that we do. I'm not fat. Check politicians speech and the reason for that is that we believe that in a democracy it is important that people can see for themselves what politicians auditions are saying. Freedom of speech. Exactly right right. And we didn't have conversations about freedom of speech when Microsoft making Microsoft Word Right in the nineties and you were copying off of a floppy disk on to your computer so something changed to make technology media again Bill Gates when he was you know sitting in front of Congress and be being examined by the Department of Justice. These issues never came. He didn't ever have to talk about freedom of speech. Freedom of expression our first amendment rights. That stuff didn't come up and and Zuckerberg it. Seems like every. Six months is awkwardly drinking water while sweating it out in front of the cameras in Congress and and keeps going back to these trips oops so so that seems like a radical shift and yet all these folks are still well in their case. They're both dropouts. Were Gates in Soccer Berg but for the rest of them are folks that have computer science degrees and it probably never once sat in a room of a of a journalism school or taking journalism class or have any fluency in media. That's weird right. Well it is because what started as a technology company with a engineering culture and origin on a college campus right gradually came to be a media company or a company that disrupts pardon the expression media hugely just as it became slightly different term. It became I think eh to`real company. Yeah when for example began explicitly hiring journalistic do journalistic things right. You are and company right right cheeses what's on their homepage. ADITORIAL company. Yes in some way. They are right. When twitter says we're going to do moments now and hire journalists analysts to curate them you created newsroom? It's notifications about them. Totally right it's the same as the push vacation for the New York Times in a way and I think this will address your question when twitter. I announce that this team was being hired. And they were going to do this thing which became moments and they announced your eight right. I happen to have been booked to interview twitter's head of news just a by chance so it was the day that this was announced and I said slowly fascinated by this team of journalists. You've hired that is really interesting direction for twitter in my view. This is actually the moment when twitter has kind have crossed over into an editorial company. So you're the head of news. I WanNa know when twitter does this when it creates an editorial culture inside Tech Company What Vision Vision of journalism is operating from. What what tradition does it see? itself as standing within with sexual model What's your conceptual model? And also what now your priorities. Where where are you coming from? So I just asked a very general question like that. What are you thinking when you and what I observed was that there was literally no way to get an answer to that? They had literally not fond about that. They had done something very very predictable. Rate easy deal which is simply say. Well what do you mean. We're hiring professionals. They're going to exercise their professional credential. ISM exact That's really interesting because in tech. If you say yeah we we are Apple. And we're going to make a better camera in the iphone and then you say what. What is it going to be able to do you? Oh it's GonNa work. Low light and low light means this much as many kindle power and Lacson whatever and it's going to be able to pick up the colors and and that's it right yes even this is answer which is very noble. But if you said iphone fourteen is going to have a better camera and said we'll in what way and he said well we're GONNA hire professionals and they're gonNA make a camera and how dare you interrogate our magic right. It would be a little weird. Wouldn't it yeah but nonetheless unless with this was a perfectly fine answer from the head of news point of view and twitter's point of view breath because that was their mandate there was like give us give us some professional credit here. Ah Now I was very surprised. For example that it didn't they didn't say something like when they gave rise to moments became a kind of an editorial company they didn't say for example that universal human rights were part of part of their grounding because twitter very associated with that and other ways. It seemed like a natural to me if you had right anyway Same thing with with facebook is is they have been forced to admit that they are kind of a media company and now they're forced to to concede that they have an editorial part two and I'm told by people who may know that this is something personal to mark like being accused accused of wounding news. Was something that he felt personally and he wanted to try and adjusted. More with Jay Rosen after the break.

twitter Jay Rosen Congress Mark Zuckerberg America facebook New York Times curry Microsoft Bill Gates Soccer Berg
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

07:00 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"And and he puts out the work on napster which. I don't think any major artists had done at that point right. Yeah definitely were you involved volved in that. Yeah we We were in talks with people over Napster. You know he would say things like hey can you get in contact with so and so and and we would we would organize these. AOL Chats which is kind of funny but through? You know assistance or whomever we would get these people in a chat room room and he would ask questions and talk about the record industry and again he could skirt around with like this may or may not be prince but it was him and he had a he had some genuine curiosity. You wanted to know what what they thought about this. Were they just tech guys who were just Kinda messing around or did they actually have kind of loftier visions Asians of what the music industry was about. So I WANNA go back so he starts to hit rate. He starts to experiment and prince's record label and Band were called the new power generation and so he he called everything in PG and he launches a thing called the MPG music club. Where did that come from? What do you know about how that took concept arrived so we were? We did love what other and that lasted about a year and then at the end of that he said well you know we're going in this direction. I WANNA I WANNA shut down one other the website And I WANNA dry. I want to create something. That's specifically focused to music. We had at this term site MPG online. Ltd and that went for about a year and that was that was sort of our sandbox to kind of kick around ideas to lead to the MPG music. The club and during that time you know we had a lot of meetings get a lot of discussions houses going to shake out What's IT GONNA look like? What can we count own on from him as far as like What he wants to give out? What can we count on from our partner as far as technology? How can we create a service that people are going to be into but doesn't totally? Just give away the whole everything in the vault These are a lot of questions we when W- We met with a lot of different people try to figure it out and took about a year to get something going which led to the MPG music club and part of this to give context like the technology's evolving living at this point like most people people had computer didn't even have speakers on them right. There's no smartphones yet. There's no you know well apple doesn't even release piece. I tunes until two thousand one and and this store doesn't come until later after that right so so this stuff is very very new. You're extremely extremely cutting edge and being able to even capture a song and putting in a form that people could download yet. I think that was that was the big challenges that we were doing something that there really wasn't a blueprint for and another thing. We had to consider too. We had an international audience so we might have a great Internet connection Chicago. Minneapolis but we were you know trying to reach. People were also in Poland or some other countries that may not have been up to par yet as far as the internet speeds so for them to download three and a half megs song long could a bit of big ordeal for them So we had to take that into consideration too like we don't want to just make it a completely high-rise experience that is going to block out a whole audience. That hasn't quite got the Internet connection. So you you you are sort of commandeered into now we're going to build. Basically you know Prince's bootleg version Asian of I tunes on your own website from scratch with an. How big's the team working on this pretty much me and and who ever our partner was okay? So you a partner and like the ghost of Princeton a chat room decided to build I tunes on your own and and a time when he's like can't stop give the middle finger to the entire record industry and so tell me about the. The launch of the first version was there like does does like prince come out and in play Guitar Solo. And like there you go. You're up on. How does that moment happen? When the switch gets flipped I would say we. We had a little bit of a a rocky start because our first I Partner was a company called tech offense and their idea was to do a download downloaded software piece essentially a player which was popular at the time You know yet real player and things like that so the idea is to download a player that would be your conduit and download music and videos and you'd access excess everything through this player Just unfortunately though you know it just wasn't dialed enough and people were having. It was Jank. Yeah it was I used it. It was Janke and they were like you know what was obvious to me. Being in tech was they were like they wanted to get prince. It'd be like look prince uses are thinking you should too and now we're going to be the new. I I tunes. We're going to be the hot software. Yeah so so so. They like they're trying to get over but it didn't work and it was like frustrating to us so you all are sort of stuck with a little bit and they had some really cool ideas and some really big visions of what could happen but ultimately people are just frustrated so we just said you know what guys we gotta pull pull the plug and we're just GonNa go really simple just gonNa make it a subscription we're gonNA make an MP three downloads and we're going to do it that way and we're GonNa do you know monthly editions which was very successful in that first year was all monthly editions. Where we're giving out? You know a very specific amount of music every month and people count on it and if you signed up for a whole year you got more music and plus you got these Essentially we call them podcast now. But essentially these audio shows that principals producing it Paisley Park again and again they placed the cart before the horse offering crumbs from the table. When in fact with no music there will be no table you are listening to MPG MPG audio owned and operated by creators of music in a dictionary and I mean it was pretty amazing the amount of content that he gave out that first year and the wild thing about this is today you know a lot of us have you know the Patriots are we support online or we being camping we buy somebody's record we listened to it or do you check out somebody soundcloud and they might have like a membership thing if you want to download a special track but it's pretty common infrastructure millions of us like we get music this way we connect with with artists this way we certainly are like I paid for the patron and got the exclusive to listen to the podcast that mix tape from my favorite artists? That's the thing that exists. Twenty years ago this is mind bending and especially because it's like prince who again big deal artists. This isn't like I'm somebody who's just breaking into the industry and I hope that somebody's GonNa Support my Patriot for twenty bucks. But I you know those. Those monthly audio shows the podcasts. Were you I know. He's mixing songs together. He's narrating the thing himself he is. There were unreleased songs that were in the mix on these things human.

prince napster AOL apple Poland Jank Paisley Park Minneapolis Janke Chicago Patriots Princeton
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

10:54 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"To make amazing using music and to talk to his fans. There was an interesting theme that emerged. which was whether we are talking about the way prince? He's drum machines on albums like nineteen ninety nine and purple rain or war the way the prince connected with his fans online. The common thread here was at Prince was extremely savvy when it came to technology but he you always engage with technology strictly on his own terms that really sets up. Where we're going on this episode? You know just recently prince's memoir. It was released. This is a posthumous memoir. But it was something he was working on before he passed Dan. Piping brain who edited it does a really good job of capturing stories about princess early life. And it's it's very moving and touching as glimpse at that but interestingly Dan also captured notes from his conversations with prince around the time and those are very focused on a a very straightforward message which that Prince wanted everyone to create especially black creators and he wanted everyone to own what they create so that idea of artistic control troll was probably the most key message. Prince wanted to get out in the world other than his music. He fought for twenty years to get ownership of his music. His master recordings the original original work of art. In at the end of that twenty year battle he won looking at it through that Lens and for my seat where I said as the CEO of a tech company he really was a technological pioneer. We don't think prince is a guy sitting in basically an office park doc in a suburb in Minnesota at his computer reflecting on how a multibillion dollar industry would evolve but that is absolutely one of the aspects of his career and his life he had a vision twenty years ago that ended up being dead on so this time around a function. We're going to get deep with to the people who did the most to help. Prince achieve that vision. I up we're GONNA talk to somebody who helped make possible prince recent memoir but she had been working on a much larger much more important project with France for years earlier and that was him getting back ownership of his music. And for the very first time theater Ellis Lampkin and who was prince's business manager at the time when he got back ownership of his master recordings has agreed to talk publicly about the work she did with Prince Fater. Thank you for joining us. I'm happy to be here told me. How do you end up working with press? So we both had a friend in common van Jones and Prince had long been in a battle with his masters and I'd met Prince a couple of times through van and Van. Said if you want to get something done you should work with Federa- At the time I was pregnant so I was on maternity leave Bennett. I think failure should go to these meetings and Prince's lawyer had been negotiating with Warner brothers ars and so that's like my medical times. And then I ended up at a meeting with Warner Brothers with his lawyer. And then that's a pretty extraordinary ordinary start. It was extraordinary. It's like at a meeting and learn what the difference between a master recordings and publishing in the meeting negotiating hysterical and for people who don't no no the master recordings are the definitive recordings of record and they are the fundamental intellectual property that a lot of you know at least old style recording contracts attracts were about and you hadn't been in the music industry in that way before Princeton I connected because I had a strong sense of social justice. It's been a lot of my life focused on changing the world in a positive way for people of color and low income people and I think he felt like the things he was in the middle of a battle for were about those those principles of justice of dignity of respect and so he felt like we got it at that level and he was able to explain to me how these issues were basic dignity and human rights issues and how artists of color especially were being exploited. So I want to share a little bit of the perspective of what we saw as fans because I was deep in community especially the online community. You know back. In the nineties prince had changed his name to assemble and really embrace the Internet and we talk about a lot of that and had very put it in very stark terms That his battle at his record label was about ownership of his Masters and ultimately control of his career and his framing was If you don't own in your masters and your masters own you and at the time when he does is he writes slave on the side of his face which is a not very subtle statement of his feelings is about the relationship with the label and begins this battle that by the time you connected with him had been going on for almost twenty years. Sometimes when you're in a fight light your and a principal place and I think it's important that he was at a principal place which I think very few people have sometimes have the luxury of getting to but he was in a place where are more than in some ways money more than other things matter. He principally wanted to win. Because it was a fight for justice he'd been in and he understood the implications and not just for him but for other artists and artists of color so when he was fighting it wasn't just I mean he was fighting for himself. He felt like he was fighting for George Clinton. He felt like he was fighting for other artists that he was very clear that his liberation would be liberation for others. And the thing is I I think he thought a a lot about that sort of historical context. This was in a tradition of hundreds of years of black artists being exploited and in attrition of the people he'd had grown up listening to George Clinton absolutely being one of them and George had been signed to Princess Label Paisley Park And obviously you know was a huge influence on on his career. But you. I also had the Franklin Hetero record label back in the sixties and seventies and and James Brown had experimented with how to release. His records are certainly Berry Gordy whose whose son would end up running Paisley Park on the business side for a while had all been sort of these huge influences on on princess thinking about ownership particularly in the context of a of being a black artist. Absolutely the thing I think about him that must be so A challenge to be is he was so brilliant as a musician at the same time as a business businessperson and sometime those forces are opposed. And so like as you think about making a smart decision for your music is very different than the smart business decision sometimes and it was always interesting to see you know to be so smart at both things and sometimes they the decisions. It was clear he sometimes made a decision as a musician. He sometimes made a decision as business version and sometimes he made it at that the cross of both so. How'd you get into one of those decisions? That from the outside. I think I got because I had been in business and certainly been like software you think about intellectual property all the time but that fans were mystified by and it was his adamant. Stubborn bullheaded views on taking down his content on Youtube in on other services online. And I want to be fair to sort of you know representatives. I think a lot of fans were like. You're hurting your legacy and you're hurting. New Audience. New listeners like especially younger listeners. Ability to discover your work because it's not on Youtube it's not in the places is that expect to find you and my understanding was if he looked at something like YouTube. It was which Google owns. You have Google's is huge company on the biggest companies in the world so if one of the big companies world saying we're GONNA put your work that you created wrote performed own. We're GONNA put it up on our site and we will pay for uh-huh what we're going to pay you. We're going to make up. You have no way to negotiate it and you'll find out after the fact that you're working on our platform and he's like no thank you. Does that match. Watch what your impression was a little bit. I think also was hard as like he thought of it is a very purposeful strategy for record labels and technology technology to devalue content right. It wasn't like it just was a business decision so like if you look at the statistics of the rates that people are being paid on radio versus the rates that they were being paid on selling like streaming or youtube. It was so much lawyer so one is the way they presented the content because someone could manipulate it and he was an artist who who wanted his music presented in a very specific way. So you might have someone. I remember like Dancing new disrespecting on women and that was not how he wanted his the music to be heard or those images to be connected so one is the way it was presented was different than it was intended and different than ten th the intention of his art second as a a business person. It was now something that he already had a split because he owned his publishing so he had fifty percent of it and then he had a percentage off of the master astor recording. But now you had in places like streaming youtube you now had record. Companies who'd re-negotiated different rates rates so a record company Anthony might get more our label. Music label might get more money then they would have gotten off a radio performance and so or they had different incentive bases and so it was the presentation of the content. It was the fact that they'd structure to deal around the artists and that he actually felt like we. We talked with Youtube or others. It was like he could negotiate deal and then they went from like it's just content than youtube is going to radio and he could negotiate specific bills when he was clear that it was only him. That can negotiate those deals. You know he's talking talking about his ability to understand the terms of the contract and how he's being paid what the royalty rates are and how they defer that that there was this huge evolution music went through a very short period of time between Recorded music on vinyl and then cassettes and then CDs onto into digital. But then there's different eras there between digital download versus streaming and digital radio. And all these kind of different evolutions. Did he have that level level fluency where he knew all that different terms and how all the different streaming services worked on what the different rates were in. What is different legal? Relationship was told them I think yes and no yes in that. Sometimes he understood the most minor detail and no and that's nice he didn't he didn't have as much information about the way that some of the relationships were working one thing that struck me when I started working with him as I I said. Okay Look I. We'd been this meeting. And they were going over contract and I went through like each piece of the contract with him and he found it really frustrating and he would get era. -tated with me but it was. It was really his property in the thing of most value to him personally and professionally. You know he'd been obviously An artist for so long had so many resources and been famous that I don't think he'd been engaged in the transactional level of some decisions. That had great impact for him. He was clear on this. I think he's talked about this that that he felt.

Prince Fater Youtube Dan Warner Brothers George Clinton Google Princess Label Paisley Park Berry Gordy France van Jones James Brown Princeton Federa Minnesota
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

11:01 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"To create this drum machine sounds prince was using something called the Lindros or the l. m. one this is a drum computer. That's what they call drum machines back then is a black box with wood-paneled sides. This was the first drum machine that used a digital recording of the drum. Sounds instead of analog tape loops or something like that and that little change change as the game for drum machines because what it meant was artists could manipulate the sounds of the drums in their songs. So when Prince got this Linn Drum machine when he took it a step further than anybody imagined instead of just turning the KNOB up to ten he turned up to a thousand and turn these really simple drum. Sounds into something that sounded did like the future on this track. Prince's Botha musician and computer programmer. He took a drum machine manipulated past what any of its creators at imagine could do and modified a create a sound. That was so influential. It didn't just shape his own. Work it shaped the sound of everything on the radio in nineteen ninety nine. It holds a special place for me personally not just because this was princess big crossover hit or got him on. MTV Would Little Red Corvette was released but also because I could understand Dan some innate level this was prince using technology not just using guitars and keyboards and the other things. We knew he was good at but really this cutting edge of technology and that was something that felt like it connected with those of us who were just discovering computers in tech at the same time. Now what I talked to people about prints technology. They often often come back to me of like. Listen this the guy that pulled off a youtube denise hate technology and hate the Internet and the truth of it was he was very savvy about technology and very protective of his work and believe very strongly in artists controlling their work in house distributed so prisons relationship with technology was very complicated because he understood tech so well he was a groundbreaker and countless ways for example he was one of the first musicians to release his music online for downloads or for streaming back in the early ninety changes name to a symbol that you had to have a custom font in order to put on your computer. He crowd funded in Alabama online a decade and a half before kick-started even existed. It's it's no surprise that he was winning a Webby Award for an online store that he launched before I tunes it even existed it even goes into culture. Prince is probably one of the people most used in memes online but he was so fluent in it that he made songs about the means that were about him part of the reason. I want to have this conversation. Nations the album one thousand nine hundred nine is going to be released as a deluxe edition later. This month is going to be new songs. And all that cool stuff you'd expect but it's also a great time to reflect on the themes of the album that are about technology and especially about the role technology played in Princess career. Jay Smooth an old friend of mine who I got the chance to go to a Lotta prints shows with over the years. He's also one of the most thoughtful and cogen public intellectuals talking about race and culture and he's been the host of New York City's longest running hip hop radio program. The Underground Railroad Andrew Swanson is a host and writer at Minnesota public. Radio's the current or she helms the local show. It's a weekly show. Oh dedicated to exploring the Minnesota music scene especially at twin cities. And she's been writing about prince for years. Jay Andrea joined me to nerd out about Princess Music Music about his complicated relationship to technology and about his incredible legacy online. One of the first glimpses. We got into prince's deep keep thinking about technology was the nineteen ninety nine in particular. And and it's interesting because it's both in the lyrics where we have something. Something in the water does not compute as well as the sound of it right. This is a very technologically enabled out and drum machines. Incentives all that stuff so the sort of moment in pop culture and I'm curious J.. Like when you see the sort of Ito in that eighties context home. Computers arriving all those things how much she think like an album like nineteen eighteen. Ninety nine helped shape people's perception or or you know was was print sorta knowing what was about to happen. I definitely think that was part of the mix you know. That was a point in time when I was I getting introduced to. I think my grandfather gave me his Texas instruments computer at that time and we were just getting the first glimpses glimpses of what kind of presence that would have in our lives and I think on a musical level prince was always known in my hip hop community for figuring out what to do with these drum machines means before anyone else did in the eighties and other guy. He was the model in a lot of ways for sort of having curiosity for it and embracing it for sure. I was ten years old at the time. So that was sort of a part of my environmental introduction into the this sort of computerized by an entry. Now you have an essay in the upcoming becoming deluxe edition of Ninety nine three released. That's coming out. You talk a little bit about what you discussed there. Yeah so I got a chance to interview a lot of different people that worked with with prince in one thousand nine hundred one in nineteen eighty two so. My Essay is attempting to the best of my abilities to kind of position where prince was in his career here and in his thinking and in his creative process. And it's really I mean I can picture it as like the floodgates are opening and he's suddenly creating a song song day and it's just flowing out of him and he's big becoming very improvisational experimental with the wind drum in creating all these different sounds and yeah it. It was really fascinating to talk to people who are in his live band people. Who are you know touring with him as his Stage crew people who are in the studio with attend engineers that were working with him and to try to capture this kind of worrying creative spirit that was emanating out of him in that era. So you you both have you know incredible long histories in the fan community and of course knowing princess working perform any times but this conversation is not primarily going to be about like like. Oh I saw this amazing Guitar Solo or with the club and he played this thing or this is what happened to this is about a totally different aspect. The Way I've played it as prince was kind of a nerd like he was Kinda into technology and in a not casual way from real early on and I just wanted to start with for each of us sort of what was the first glimpse into that. I'll start with J. Like when was the first time we were like princess on some other stuff here like he's doing something different with tech. I mean there were little hints with Something in the water does not compute and computer blue and so on but I think the first time I really had a chance to engage with. It was when he put out the love sexy acce- CD as one single continuous track that that was my first experience of prince having a real particular vision of how he wants to use Technology Ajayi and use it to seek a real particular relationship engagement with his audience and sort of experiencing that paradox of totally orderly seeing division and getting it and respecting it while also being highly annoyed by it in practice experience for his his audience or as listeners just and for content or folks that don't know I love sexy was an album that came out in nineteen eighty eight and also. This is hard for folks to match. Maybe as well CDs were brand new then one of the first two or three CDs I ever bought. Yeah it was like my friend. His his mom's boyfriend had the CD player. And we'd be like you know five minutes a day we can go and steal it and use it but but what we found was this album came out. This is pretty much of the tail end of sort of the Ron Prince's most classic first ten albums and you know it was an event when he dropped drop now but the vinyl you put the needle on the record listen to songs. This was like you're going to listen to forty eight straight minutes of this album in the sequence that I wanted and you couldn't give a tracker tracker. Do anything else. Then you think this is prince saying like I know how to use this tech and I'm GonNa Flex on you a little bit. I can't speculate to that extent but my impression was has. He thought this is an album. This should be experienced from front to back. So I'm going to use the technology to force you in that direction. So that if you feel like you just wanNA listen to anesthesia. A Caesar you're going to have to hold down the fast forward button for exactly the right amount of time right to that song. I'M NOT GONNA make it easy for. which was the last song of the album one of the best songs on the album? And you're spending a good bit of time like engaging with this device and it's a little bit of him sort of saying like this is me knowing what's possible the right I think. Think hoping to use the technology to make you engage with the stuff on his terms is a recurring theme and enter sort of same question. I'm I'm hearing from you have like when was the moment when you were like you know. He's he's this pop figuring everybody knows as whatever this symbol on the popstar the musical genius. But there's this other weird Internet cider. Ed Tech Side. I guess my experience is way more recent. It's when he re tweeted me by only typing my first and last name in all caps with the link in between it to something thing I had written and he had a distinct style of how he used social media for sure like he didn't use it like anybody else did. Yeah if you wanted to re tweet someone he literally just took what they wrote and put it as his tweet. Sometimes with a citation sometimes not but I. I was just so fascinated with the way he was using twitter as kind of like in the same way like in the nineties. You would find out about a rave by someone hosting a flyer and then you're like call secret phone number and figure out where it was like. He was doing that to advertise events at Paisley Park on twitter. He would post something and then you delete it but the party would still be happening that night and you just had to follow him like every every minute of the day to catch when he posted it I think the the biggest example of that was he had invited. Me and bobby out It was the thirtieth anniversary of Purple Rain and we had done a story together on the current where I work Bob. Easy was the drummer in the revolution. So you know one of Prince's longtime collaborators so bobby's sent me an email well it I don't know six o'clock saying can you come to Paisley park tonight. P wants to meet you and I said sure and I I just wrote on twitter the summoning no other context and just went and was off the grid basically for the rest of the night and I woke up in the morning to attacks x from one of my friends saying. Did you go to Paisley Park last night and I was like how on Earth would anyone besides me Princeton. Bobby Z. Know that and she's a princess tweeting about you and and he had taken my tweet and put it as his own tweet and just again in all caps Andrea Swenson and Everyone was like what happened. Less what it Andrea do. ooh Like what is why is Prince tweeting about her. And then of course by noon it was gone so I'm going to take it back because we're you know we're well on the social media era but but there's there's a sort of prehistory going even all this far back as the eighties and the nineties presented tremendous reckoning in his career in the early nineties. He changed his name to assemble. He starts begin his sort of his battle with the record label and really back control of his art but one.

Ron Prince Jay Andrea Linn Drum Minnesota Radio twitter Paisley Park Bobby Z. New York City Princess Music Music Technology Ajayi Alabama Ito Andrew Swanson Corvette MTV Botha
Interview with Anil Dash Discussing Web Development

Developer Tea

09:55 min | 1 year ago

Interview with Anil Dash Discussing Web Development

"An ill welcome to the show thanks for having me it's kind of honor I feel like I've I've seen your work for a long time and I think the world is a better place because of what you do but for those who uh of for whatever reason they haven't encountered what you do the things that you are part of can you can give a basic background to the work that you're doing Jack make stuff on the web And so the first thing I became known for his I I started blogging about twenty years ago reading about software in pop culture and whatever else and then you didn't have to be he didn't have big late you consider tries though and then along the way I got to work a number of startups in the early days of social media out build a tool Co. movable type those sort of one of the first big long tools these billy's till the post and Gawker and things like that and then we'll recently a lot of my work has been around trying to enable collaboration creativity coating together so I'm on the board of Stack overflow and Sankara blow actually spun out of call our creed also travel links other products and about three years ago I took over the company and we launched so the latest in that series of products called glitch and it has become a very substantial very interesting community people creating web stuff together in it's both a platform we can code right your browser and instantly ship up to the entire web and also a really great creative community reconsider the People's work remix it in and and clower together and it's been a pretty you know knock on wood every night success and the gates we've had it just lots and lots devs come in and be like Oh this brings back creative feeling Ron cody and so we ended up actually rename the company to glitch and focusing all in on it and since we decided to do that about a year year and go it's really taken off people now built millions of APPs on the and that's one day to day is running the company and getting direct with the community and I'm GonNa ask you a intentionally broad and difficult question about glitch now I'm not sure Who is glitch made four and who is it made not for WHO's not made for I guess is a better with it and I can use English properly today who is it not made for that's a great question so the first thing I thought about is every Hamed a developer tool in the past it had always been this felt like they hadn't pictured guy sitting at a desk with a black turban screening green taxed on and that was the sort of the ethos in the aesthetic in and the mindset of this thing and who's GonNa prove your command line is this is how you became a developer and we actually have a great cohort of people that work that way and they're using this as a tools English but it wasn't that we put them I thought we know we check that box those kinds of developers but for people interestingly on other the opposite ends of the occur from that's the the middle of curve adopters on one enter a real experts who lobby on the web but have had you know any I be in differing views are created toward the tools of us and and I think they've lost some of the the joy the fun of just making stuff and sharing it because it's become very complicated you can't just ship stuff and all of a sudden you're negotiating your deployment environment and also stuff it's just in the way and so those very very experienced coders I think have lost the the fun of the soul of connecting them to creating an the other end are beginners in this can be a kid is learning to read the first line of each to mail it can be experienced over trying API that they haven't used before this sort of back to square one or somebody that doesn't take themselves coder at all maybe they do you know they edit formulas in spreadsheets workers like that the share in common you've got some technical skill but they're a little bit out of their comfort zone a little bit out of the norm in for them listing Louis they had the same needs that expert coder has when they just want to get an idea of their head which is I don't WanNa worry about the overhead and complexity I don't WanNa be distracted by getting something just the basics running I won't be expresses idea I wanNA capture this this little mood of inspiration than I had before evaporates because it's so fragile seen same way as like you know a lot of friends with musicians and all of us have in other guitar two new residents were sitting next to them so that they got it songs in their head they can just capture it and the same thing applies for for making stuff on the web were sometimes you said this fun idea you get out there on glitches as easy as remix it and change it tweet it to be exactly what you need for managed that's in your head we're making everybody that's ever had a moment that you don't be cool thank you know what the world should see this one little idea yeah that's super cool so there's a lot to be said for lowering the barrier to entry both for people who are you know well into the industry now the job and doing fine but also perhaps more importantly for people who are not in the industry who want to try something for the first time but they don't WanNA learn sixteen hours worth of coober netease material exactly right that's not what they're looking for and even like I can't I can't provisional serve on aws again the deploy script but my Gosh I don't want to you just WanNa make something in in back in the day I used to be able to go on Geo cities or journal or whatever the time and just sort of like shop something onto the Internet and it got worse and then it got hard you know and so he's got some difficult than it couldn't just you know try something can just experiment and so having I feel where it's like I said as joyful it's just like tapping out a song piano or something I it's a really Nice feeling yeah I think so so what you've said is this really cool the idea of of a quick idea get it out on paper and you know I think a lot of people may have a misconception about glitch based on our conversation so far that's only made for like these prototyping ideas but there's actually these like the ability to do production level thing right yeah so I mean we run glitch dot com visit south on which is estimated and that's obviously you know Michigan legal for us it's very important out but but either lots of companies where you you're not going to run your air traffic control system on it you're not gonna that's nine you're not gonNA run the Stock Exchange on it sure did that a lot of times or just like I wanted you know we have some old proprietary apple or company and we would like to have it ah you know drop something in the slack so we have a reporting system in I just wanted to set it up but I'm the one the president the office who has permission to launch production apt to do all the I'm stopping I don't WanNa ask the IT guys to do it for me in the third quarter of next year and so maybe I can just put something together and I think that that's the taste but I think it's true at home or somebody who's like I just wanted to you know put together a website to organize early neighborhood wants to clean up the park the playground I want to have to do a facebook group for it and there's a lot of different ways of capturing that impulse but their relapse and they really run and they there full stack and they are us any framework and toolkit API I do think a lot of times we start with that in Nicole were all of like in the technical bonafides and not so much the creative impulses destined care about the most is you actually figure out any tech you need to or any you will learn a teenage learn if there is an idea that just animates you so much that you need to create it in the world and Sony learn that way to begin with or at least started that way and And we wanted to sort of enable that because the expert coders are very well tended to there are tons of resource capabilities but the people who are like just need to get this idea out there and then maybe they got some experience coating or maybe you tone but will handle all that other complexity offer you WanNa go if you want to run the large scale production side like you are that's great that's all in there you don't have to think about that we start right yeah I think there's there's an interesting discussion here that kind of merges when when you start thinking about you know that seam between and I'm back when I was an agent he works especially I saw the same pronounce Stephen Moore but it's between the kind of creative people and technically adept people Zainur and develop per prototype kind of people where the designers kind of quarantines to this area where you know they might be able to make a motion prototypes they may even be able to work with HD on Java scrip- right but there's no way that that stuff is GonNa make it over that seem is not going to get into the quote real APP yet right and it got harder to because we introduce the frameworks of the toolkits build scripts that you couldn't just tweet it yourself now you you had have this knowledge

Jack Sixteen Hours Twenty Years Three Years One Day
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

14:57 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"Hasn't actually committed the crime of were accused. You could be low risk to society but because you don't have enough money you can't pay your way out of jail and have to sit in pretrial detention until trial date. Judges should be releasing as many people as possible thel unless there is some reason so compelling that they think this person either present some danger to society or they are at risk of not showing up for their trial. Those are the two legal bases on which a judge can detain somebody in jurisdictions where they're using a a tool like psa a platform like this. Do you see a difference at what's happened. What happens at an arraignment right is there? Are there metrics or feedback kwbz like all of a sudden a different decision can have it absolutely. So what what we're seeing right now is most jurisdictions who are adopting a risk assessment. Esmond are adopting it. As part of a comprehensive suite of interventions that they think will be good for their jurisdiction in creating more. Just pretrial outcomes. uh-huh so I I really want to be clear about this. A risk assessment in isolation implemented without anything else is not going to do anything and it is not going to get the jurisdiction that chooses it to the place at wants to be a risk assessment has to be implemented as part of a comprehensive set of reforms to the pre-trial practices of the municipality or the state or the locality and that means thinking about by statute limiting the number of offenses and the and the folks folks who will actually even be eligible for jail in the first place it means thinking about due process and making sure that no matter what there is no detention decision made without a full hearing on the record in front of the judge. It's thinking about prosecution practices and parsimony in the way that prosecutors prosecutors use their extraordinary powers to charge to make bail recommendations to make sensing recommendations. It's about defenders and making ensure that they are well resource all of that goes into the process of creating pretrial practices. That will help. Bring down the number of people who are unjustly held pre trial right so you can't. You can't just throw an APP at it right. You're not gonNA say like sprinkle some data on this and that's going to solve it exactly but if we come out of that and we say there's a in you know you'll forgive my skepticism here. But we say there's a jurisdiction that is trying to engage in good faith and all the things they ought to be doing so you have a laundry list of all the changes they need to make policy but one aspect of that is and let's get you know good informed recommendations. Do you have those results. You can say we're and then in in this jurisdiction a comprehensive system that included using this kind of technology did have an impact that you can measure that you could see absolutely so we've been getting some really promising results first and foremost in New Jersey that implemented comprehensive pretrial justice reform undo. It's Criminal Justice Reform Act two to three years ago and they hid just released a few months ago. Their first comprehensive report showing that they had reductions in level of levels of pretrial detention without any changes changes in the number of people who showed up for their court date or any common uptick in The crime rate those are the kinds of things that are incredibly helpful showing that a big state who invests in holistic reform and in this case that included adopting the PSA can see the kinds of beneficial impacts. Thanks for their population. They've actually reduced their pretrial detention population nearly forty percent over the past two years after they implemented reform that is quite literally tens of thousands of people who are able to go home. Who are able to go to their jobs? Were able to provide to their for their families and aren't spending time in jail. Unnecessarily will the administration of Justice continues to happen successfully so very similar T- New Jersey the Mecklenburg County or Charlotte. North Carolina was one of our earlier doctors of two the PSA and what. What's unique about Mecklinburg? Is that the use of the. PSA is almost almost one step right after you are booked so what I mean by that is when an individual is arrested. They are brought essentially to the jail and a magistrate stret. Here's information about why they've been brought forward and take into account that information and then make a decision to release or to detain that individual or to set bail. What's transformed in Mecklenburg? Is that along with the use of the PSI which is not completed at the magistrate level. There have been a number of pretrial forums and cultural changes. That have occurred that you know the magistrates have learned more about risk assessment and risk factors and predictors for these various outcomes. They've adopted practices where they're mindful of what that information is and what the needs of their community are so a pretrial detention rates. Actually have gone down in Mecklenburg County and I want to be a candidate here. They were actually going down prior to the adoption of the PSA and but even with that larger number of people being released. I think one of the fears that often happens. When a risk assessment is adopted? Is that we think there's a larger the number of people how could it not be that You know failures to appear didn't increase or perhaps public safety rates didn't decrease and what we found in Mecklenburg which is very similar to what James spoke to you regarding New Jersey is that actually. They've maintained their very high court appearance rates. They've they've maintained their high public safety rates. And it's it's that information of you know we can use brisk assessment and make informed decisions alongside other pretrial reforms terms and we can ensure that people are out in the community. You know getting the services or or their needs met and you know we're we're really then you you know creating sort of a better justice system more fair justice system some cursed in particular about some of the most vulnerable and over sentence communities like black and Latte necks ex communities. Do you have specific ideas about the numbers of the impact of That forty percent drop. How's that proportional to raise which has been the confounding factor in all these sentences? Both of the Mecklenburg and the information that was produced from New Jersey's judiciary Gary looking at their outcomes did see overall drops by by race but what they are mindful of. Is that the disparity by race. Ace is still present. And that's that's fundamental piece that I think all of us want to continue to focus on It's great to see the drop but we can do better and we need to take those next steps and figure out. What's what's the next piece that we need to move forward with? I think this is part of where a lot of the conversation around whether or not juristiction should or should not adopt risk. Assessment comes in we all need to acknowledge and recognize that the data and the criminal justice system over for all is racially biased. And so as good as any assessment can be as helpful as it can be in giving a judge the better information and allowing them to make a less biased decision with the information they have it is still information. The reflects by sees from the front end of our criminal justice system them. And that's something that no assessment will ever be able to correct for so what we essentially have. Is this intervention which is really useful but it takes in what is by definition going to be data that reflects biopsies. The most important thing for us to remember is that the the status quo is judges looking at that same information and making decisions based solely on their experience and their gut which we know will reflect their individual is is. He's as good as the judge may be what we wanted to do what we want to see and what a well validated assessment like the the. PSA does is provide better information. Even if it's predicated on the same flood information that permeates our system so we have a tool that helps get us to a better place place. But there's no there's no assessment that's going to be perfect and that's going to eliminate bias in the way that we would want to that exists exist from the front of our system so that's the core of the question that I get you right. which is one of your factors is for example prior conviction right and you know this is America we yeah no prior? Convictions are skewed heavily on a racial basis right and and there's there's plenty documentation evidence of this and so if you train system this all the time in every kind of machine learning or AI. Thing it you whatever you traded on it replicates And sometimes unfortunately accurately right. I wonder underrun a system like this. How do you anticipate and correct for the fact that the system is trained on data that accurately reflects the reality? The A black defendant. Next defendant is more likely to be convicted one of the things I want to clarify about the. PSA itself is that it is not art official intelligence. So there's not an ongoing feed of data Modifying the Algorithm the tool itself. I appreciate the from a technical perspective. That's very important clarification because those systems do evolve of retirement or not sort of something that you've you've been able to analyze an aesthetic way so this is a much. Ah You know speaking as a technologist this system I would trust much more because you sort of know what you're putting in and how it's going to get out get out so I those are systems that also do exacerbate estimate those issues and and and it is the data you put in affects what you get out absolutely and I. I agree a hundred percent. I do think it. Is You know something. We need to be mindful mindful of and I I WANNA be careful also to say. We're very interested in learning more about branches of artificial intelligence such as machine learning To see how they can be helpful. But I think because one of our core values and I think a core value that we're trying to really Ensure permeates throughout the criminal. The justice system is out there be a very objective and transparent process which I think is a fundamental key. That's that's missing from something like a bail schedule. The where we don't necessarily know what risk factors a judge perhaps maybe considering In formulating decision associated with bail you would would of course with the PSA the assessment itself. Essentially if you had access to the same those same data sources be able to replicate that information formation and I think there's value in having that level of transparency to sort of reproducibility at least gives you a check that's no assessment is ever going to correct for racial bias that is baked into our criminal justice system that starts with policing it just cannot do that. And that's a really important reality for us to confront an too frustrating reality for anybody like me who want to see generational change in our criminal justice system system and wants to see changes as quickly as possible. That are sustainable. And that create more opportunity and less injustice but that reality L. D. means that we have to try to provide the kinds of tools that will get as a step in the right direction. So we I have to acknowledge that challenge that we will never be able to correct for that using an algorithm or assessment or any kind of tool. That's going to require policing policy work and the kind of policy work that we supported arnold ventures to policing team in and our colleagues there that has to be done second of all once you take that and we know Oh and accept that every single day people are sitting behind bars in jail because of the way the system currently operates. The question is how. How do we make that better? And can we make improvements on that system so that fewer people are detained unjustly so one of the things I want to call out at a high level all here. Is You know. There's a refrain the conversations catalyzed because there's a technology that is provocative in new and that that has promised to change things. He's hopefully for the better but the refrain I hear from you. Both sort of repeatedly here is this is about systems and this is a almost a single single input into a very complex system and that immediately gets me thinking about like. How do you build for accountability? Right how do you make sure this is sort of getting putting together the way you hope that it will. I wonder about you know I've seen this happen. I've had friends that have been through this. You know in the courtroom courtroom that are like you know much more printed versions of system and I know there are other tools out there that are maybe not created with the same Said of the same sources of rigor as what you're doing but they've had judges say the number came up. That was the phrasing number came up right. which is this sort of? It's out of my hands An algorithm that I have been told US authorities and the comes from well intentioned people who keep saying they wanna WanNa get things right and as much as you can say rightfully so this should be a case-by-case basis this should be in the context there should be a person. The room looking in the specifics of the case and make a judgment tech has authority and we treat it as infallible. How do you? How do the account for that? How do you train people for that? How do you accommodate the training matters in that? If a judge is saying the number came up this is our authoritative and then follows that simply because it is the number then. They're doing it wrong. That's it's not the way that any assessment should be applied and the legal responsibility for the decision to release to assign conditions or to ultimately detain rests rests with the judge and they need to exercise that responsibility with their own experience being able to balance and input from an album which is is really just a number and that judicial experience is critical. That is what it means to be a judge. They take information information and they make decisions with that information that information is mostly qualitative but sometimes quantitative this arraignment can I see what number was.

New Jersey Mecklenburg Mecklenburg County US North Carolina Charlotte WanNa AI America Ace arnold ventures L. D. James Gary
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

10:57 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"I think that one of the most interesting possibilities of disabled people sort of engaging with design process is the ways in which we we adapt systems products spaces that aren't built for us and this is what my partner at the disabled list. Liz talks talks about. She says that disabled people are the original life hackers and I think so. I've seen this on twitter. For instance where people who are geographically isolated and often very socially isolated. Because we. You know we don't have access to to accessible transit because we're poor four because our bodies are unpredictable. which makes it sometimes hard to get out to a concert at night? or or what have you and have built. These incredible online communities like a friend of mine actually had an online birthday party where people got together on twitch to to stream. TV Chat together and these were people who were all over the US us. I'm based in Canada and it was this this sort of virtual presence and I don't think that that's necessarily something that a non that enabled person I would sort of identify as as a way of using that technology necessarily that that you can create this kind of virtual presence we have all these discussions about what does presence mean and now that we're moving into sort of ar and VR and this is a really interesting practical incredibly simple actually application of it and similarly mullaly as a chronic patient Patient with a number of rare illnesses that that took literally decades to get diagnosed. I think there's an incredible opportunity entity that's being missed out within the healthcare field which is the incredible volumes of knowledge and Sort of diagnostic information and even treatment ment plans and management strategies that are constantly being shared by people with chronic illness across twitter across facebook support pages. And it's Often stuff that that sort of has just been passed through the community because when you got a rare illness chances are that most of your doctors are never even GonNa hurt it and certainly aren't going to know how to treat it necessarily even where to refer you so it's this knowledge that just heard gets passed through the community and yet isn't somehow being accessed at all healthcare systems and I find myself thinking I was literally diagnosed by someone on twitter who lives in the UK. Read a blog post I'd written and said You need to ask for referral to to be checked for this turns out that is what I had and now I you know I'm treating myself and able to pitch my symptoms and was able to get back to work as a result of that one. One little interaction on twitter That that simplifies. It was also like three years of fighting for care after that but really if that one interaction on twitter hadn't happened happened You know I probably wouldn't be here talking to you and I think that the ways in which we sort of build communities online and share information is a really really powerful potential resource within a lot of communities. And I think thanks for trying to get back to your original question. Yes I think the way that we often have to the way that we often have to fight an advocate vacate for assaults. I think that is really important for users. But I also think it's. It's it's not so much about. Teaching users had advocate themselves. But it's about teaching designers how to listen or even how to ask questions. This is something I keep coming back to. which is that designers are trained to find solutions and to provide answers and so I think the key is is that we need to start teaching designers not so much how to provide answers but we need to start teaching them more so how to ask questions so you talk about this this evolution that has to happen and how we create products how we create technology and how design needs to evolve to be about the questions rather than supposing the answers and? I'm curious if you think about there but a lot of attempts at making tack or APPS designed sort of quote unquote for disabled people right and and and almost as a as a separate audience in it seems to be typically. They're not particularly successful. Certainly compared to absolutely resigned for everyone. I'm curious if you think like is there a reason that this approach doesn't work or am I wrong in that sometimes it does work. No I think endure exactly right and I think there are a couple of different reasons for this and I think that one of the reasons on the one that sort of most broadly applicable to design in general is that when designers seek to solve a problem for disabled people when able designers seek to solve a problem for disabled people. oftentimes they're coming up with that problem on their own and this is that this is the thing going back to where where the disabled people where the users are brought into the design process when when you come to users with concept already you've already defined your problem and effectively sort of at least in a very broad field identified ride. Roughly what your solutions GonNa look like. You've identified sort of wear your solutions GonNa lie anyway and so when you go to users to then sort of find out how to do that. You're you've you've already started closed off the discussion disability dangles and that's essentially useless or potentially even harmful solutions to a the problem that designers have identified disabled people as having that we never actually knew we had in the first place so examples of that are are things like they. I remember there was coverage of a Kit that was designed a few years ago. Where people could simulate the experience of being autistic by like putting this is our bulky rubber mouthguard in their mouth and apparent that was supposed to simulate sensory experiences or something to make people interact more easily with with autistic people because it was to help them build empathy with us or or sort of it was it was sold by the and it got coverage in a couple of really big designed? Blondes and I was just. I was like Idaho. I don't understand where the thought process by this even came from and so there's this weird disconnect that because designers aren't necessarily tapped into these cultural issues the problems identifying are actually the right problems and so therefore the solutions are coming up with are also very definitely not the right solutions so that sounds pretty profound and then I think about the scope of the challenge ahead right. There's there's a lot of work to be done. And you know everything from how you shape policy to how you change process says like those are all aspects of it but if you you sort of look forward and you could let's say wave your magic want and I make a couple of things happen. What do you think are the wins that you would like to see happen that are that? Are there doable. This sort of feel like they're right in front of you. That would make a huge impact when we provide workplace as accommodations. We we legislate that they. They are to be provided if they're reasonable accommodations and they don't cause an undue burden for employers and and what's so interesting about what that ends at meaning in practice is that reasonable accommodations are the accommodations that enable a disabled person and to approximate being able so so like a ramp for wheelchair. You to get into building. If a wheelchair user needs ramped get into the workplace and then they can go to their desk and you know hyper conduct interviews or or what have you you know at that point. There's sort of their effectively within the very limited context of their job. And that's not a race. You know what their their experiences in the larger world would be like from the perspective of their employer employer at that point. They're not really any different than than enabled person. And I think that's often something that gets emphasize when we talk about the importance of employing disabled people. There's always the sort of need to to have a hook to justify it and we talk about how disabled people can be more productive of and they'll have greater job loyalty and things like that and what that really leaves out is. The whole swath of disabled people who no amount of accommodations will ever ever enabled their bodies to approximate being able their bodies and minds to approximate being able so for instance. I'm I'm chronically ill and I have narcolepsy which is now more or less while managed than I have chronic pain and chronic fatigue and there are some days that just because the weather other decided it decided to be a thunderstorm outside or you know because there there was some loud noise going on in the apartment went above mine. I I wake up with a migraine and I can't get out of bed. That day or desk cares. Tend into 'cause my my hips to dislocate so actually sometimes I just really need to be able to work from from my bed at home. And those are not accommodations that are sort of readily accepted. especially like if you're unpredictable like one of my favorite things about working with Liz at the table. Is We both understand if one of US needs to disappear for a a day or two or three. We'll pick up the slack as best as we can and if you know if something sort of get pushed back a little bit because of that that also oh has to be accepted and I think that's a really really hard thing for employers within our current sort of industrial capitalist landscape to to embrace But I think that by finding ways to embrace it by finding ways to embrace people who are never ever going to be able to approximate in being able to There would be a lot of knowledge and insights that they could gain from those people as well wonderful. Alex thank you so much for joining us on infection and thank you for the work that you do disabled list. Thank you so much for having me as Alex and Emily pointed out one of the ways. People often discriminate against disabled. The people is by minimizing the diversity within the disabled community as it turns out. Racism is a thing and disabled communities just like it is in every other community community let people think of disability. What is the visions that comes to mind and the use of a disabled person? That's Ballista Thompson. She's a social worker. In disability activists does work focuses on the black disabled experience a few years ago. She brought attention to the overwhelming whiteness of the disability activism community with the Hashtag disability to white came out.

twitter Liz US Canada Alex Ballista Thompson UK migraine Idaho facebook pain Emily
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

11:41 min | 1 year ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"An afterthought your thought or a not even thought or an optional thing or an add on into something central and core and it seems to me at some level this is also about whether the people creating technology themselves see that one this matters to whether there are clearly enough people who identifies disabled involved in creating technology. It seems like a lot of this is about. WHO's at the table? WHO has a voice? WHO's making design? Is that something that you think. His changing and evolving. I think that it's moving in that direction. There are technology companies that are one hundred percent leading the way on being more inclusive of the disability. Community I know just personally For example Microsoft has an autism hiring initiative. They have autistic people who actually consult on that and then You know they have achieved accessibility officer who identify having a disability and so there's definitely motion ocean in major tech companies to be inclusive of disabled people on the product side of things and not just on the end user side of things. But I think that right now the problem is we want to have have people with disabilities at the table but they're still metaphorical steps up to the table. And so I always say. Let me have a seat at the table. I come with my own chair. You don't even need to give me a chair. Just give me a seat at the table and let me weigh in before you design the product product. Because you'll save yourself a lifetime of hassle with the feedback from people saying well. This is not accessible. Because you didn't think about it in the I believe so. Yeah and it's not just about thinking about your end user. It's about having a diverse range of people working on what you're doing in in the first place so that the people who were making the product look just like the population of unease. Well Emily I think on that note of making sure. We are incorporating and thinking thing about people with disabilities at every level. What we do? Thank you for joining us on function. And thank you for raising the voices of everybody who is disabled Out Loud. Thank you so much for having me as emily pointed out. It's not enough to just have disabled people in mind when we're creating our APPS or software instead we have have to actually invite disabled people to the conversation and actively listened when they identified their needs after the break. We're going to hear from an activist who's pushing tack to do exactly tweet back with Lincoln sponsoring this season of function. I thought I could give a little bit of perspective of what I see both as a CEO who hires lots of folks folks and people to join our team as well as somebody who's been around in the industry for a minute. In the first thing I thought of when I found out lengthy and was going to sponsor bonsor function was my perspective is somebody that signed up for Lincoln and the date launched now. The reason I was there to sign up was Reid. Hoffman the founder. Was Somebody I knew. Invited me into the site and there was one choice. He made and that the whole team made that really stood out on day. One and the very earliest versions of linked tin there was no place to put a photo of yourself and the reason why whereas they said if we just let people put up whatever picture they want themselves it could turn it into a dating site and they didn't want that to happen and I think that kind of intentional choice about what the network is as part of why it succeeded all all these years later in being such an effective place to do business in especially to recruit the kind of talent that you want for your team. That's why I'm glad to have them sponsoring this season of function. And you can still use Lincoln jobs and all that power that network for yourself today. We'll help you get started. You can pay whatever you want. And the first fifty dollars on linked it just visit Lincoln dot com slash matching that's linked tin dot com slash. Emmy T. C. H. I. N. G. and they'll get you started terms and conditions apply. Welcome back to function. We often hear the term seat at the table. But I gotta ask myself. What does that really mean like a lot of people? I've had the experience of being invited into havoc on the table and found out. I was a token I didn't really have a voice. This and it really have any power and that experience was sort of top of mind for me and all the conversations. I've been having with disabled people about how technology needs to meet their needs. Because obviously it's important that we think about how people will interact with the software or the tech that we create but it's even more important that disabled people have the power to directly impact how nobody created in the first place. Alex Gard is a disability activist the director of Communications for the disabled list. The Community of Disabled Design Consultants don't we essentially provide consulting services for designers design researchers companies. Who are looking to integrate disability into their design process in a more more meaningful and holistic way presenting ourselves is a little bit of a challenge to traditional design thinking and even co design approaches where we often find that let users and especially when it's users who are marginalized social group like disabled people are approached with concept and then they're asked to validate that concept and what we're trying aren't you develop is a methodology to do what we call disability lead design and look at disability as a creative opportunity in and of itself looking at the ways in which moving through the world's as someone on with a non normative Body mind actually afford you a really interesting perspective that that can be really useful from the earliest stages of design process access. So it's a really interesting president and sounds like a lot of this is just getting involved in an earlier stage then is often considered that absolutely fluently is a big part of what it is that that sort of thing we struggle with. We don't necessarily have a problem with inclusive design per se. The problem we have is that the stage stage at which disabled people are often brought into a project. They don't actually get to control the agenda the project that that agendas already set you know you have the design brief and then you bring the users users in and what. We're trying to sort of argue and trying to find a way to embody is that you need to bring users and before you decided on your concept need to open it up with a with a really open ended conversation and then also just sort of really practical level things like we've had we've had researchers come to us and say like how do we even recruit fruit disabled research participants. How do we ask them about their disability? In a way that isn't offensive. People are always really really worried about being offensive. But it's been really interesting because has through those conversations. We've also identified that using diagnostic labels to recruit disabled user research. Participants actually doesn't give you really good insight into into the distinct categories of user experience. They might have so. It's been the sort of organic process of working through with both disabled people on the user side of things and with design on research is to find out where those gaps knowledge are and basically try to bridge. Those you know you sort of flagged this anxiety or concern about being offensive live or more affirmatively phrase desire to be thoughtful or sensitive and and. I think it's actually very nagas too. Many forms of advocacy around any community. That's underrepresented which is language really matters and representation and presentation really matters and you know one of the things that I noticed as you? You say disabled people and I have read as somebody who still has a lot to learn in. Most of the writing is sort of start with people so we say people in our weather weather whatever it is people of color like there's an identity those people first and then the descriptors is a is a facet of them. But let's start with them being people so I was. I was surprised to hear are different phrasing there and I would really appreciate getting to learn about the significance of inverting that order. Yeah absolutely and I really appreciate the chance to talk about but this because it's something that comes up a lot for us in our practice and it's something where the conventional wisdom actually goes against. What a lot of the community tends to feel most comfortable comfortable with and yet there's when you look at sort of institutional academic resources there they all use the what we call person? First language people with disabilities versus what we call Paul Identity First language disabled people but the thing is with this identity first language is that it really is about claiming disability as an identity and as a category of experience dance and even as its own distinct culture and with people with disabilities. It sort of came into vogue. I would say like sort of even twenty to thirty years ago within mainly academic spaces advocacy spaces but notably advocacy spaces. That weren't really led by disabled people that were led by like parents or or researchers or educators. who were you know fighting for the people with disabilities? I'm doing air quotes right now. She can't see hung. We can hear them and for for disabled people putting that disabled. I what that means is that it's not something that's separate from us. It shapes every aspect of our experiences so so for instance. I'm a wheelchair user. I'm also autistic and it shapes the way move through the world. It also shapes how I interact with people at shape how I think like you. You cannot separate my disability for me and I think that's really the key thing here when you say with disability it sounds like like an add on it's an accessory and when I say that I'm disabled. That's that's just me. But in terms of an actual research perspective that becomes uh-huh really really important because the argument that we're trying to make that disabled identity and culture provide an entry way into this unique type of knowledge knowledge. And you can't get that by taking a person first language based approach. You can't access that cultural knowledge. Unless unless you're actively seeking out the people who identify with that label with that particular culture and community so that's why we think it's really important. She's that distinction and when you're they're seeking out disabled research participants to actually specifically seek out people who claim that identity because that's going to afford you the access to that cultural knowledge as well. There's this sort of refrain that comes up around essentially asserting yourself into a lot of systems that that weren't designed for you right and to sort of say. This is a place that I should have and particularly because I think if we we look at technology There's absolutely a paternalism right. I I can't tell you how many times I HEAR PEOPLE IN TECH SAY Steve Jobs said if you ask people what they'd want they tell you you know a faster horse and I gave them a car but if you ask people were kind of social network they would want they would say one. That doesn't spy on you. So some of that condescending. We know better than you. Stuff isn't isn't necessarily real. I'm curious if you think part of what the disabled community can help abled people people learn is. How do you assert your needs into a system? That wasn't designed for you. I think I think absolutely and just speaking to the tech.

Disabled Design Consultants Lincoln Emily Microsoft Lincoln dot Alex Gard Steve Jobs Reid Emmy T. C. H. I. N. G. Hoffman Paul
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

09:50 min | 2 years ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"The last episode of our first season and so we wanted to do something special. We made a trip out to Las Vegas for the consumer electronics. Show better known as C.. Yes which is sort of the heart of the tech industry for the week when it takes place. This is that show where hundreds of thousands of people from around the world come to Vegas to see the the latest and greatest gadgets but also where every single company from the biggest names in tech. They all combine this show off their gear. Google set up a playground for their assistant and this was basically every kind of smart speaker or smart microphone device. You can imagine from like an instant pot. That'll cook your food when you talk to it. Two cars at respond onto your voice. It was really pretty incredible. And we get to sit right in the middle of it in the heart of sort of the future of technology and have have a really incredible conversation my guest Alex client who are going to hear a little bit more from an a bit. He's captured what it's like to be there. It's circus like isn't it. You know it's a crowd of you've quite like minded and like background did folks obsessing over the the newest in the sparkly is people come to this conference to see something you and I think. oftentimes they do find something. Being at the consumer electronics show really showed off one thing. That is very very obvious. These electronic products with these speakers. These microphones these cameras are going to be part of your daily life. They're going to be in your house. They're going to be in my case in my kid's bedroom and gadgets are always around us there around our families and one of the big questions that I think any of us reckons with is what impact is this going to have kids. What effect is it going to have to raise our children around around this kind of technology and whether your parent or not this affects lives of the next generation now? I know this isn't a new sketch in everybody's been worrying and wringing their hands about out. The new technology in its effect on kids since fire was the newest technology. But for these folks that are born into a world of smartphones and smart speakers the kids know the technology really well but they might not understand all of its implications and so what we think about you know one tech comes at our houses was was the effect of it on on kids. But what I think about a lot is also how are the kids going to see the technology. What empowers them? How do they feel like they can create with it or they can control it? And that's where Alex cline comes in his company Kano creates these kids and they're they're incredible. They're sort of do it yourself you build it. I give to my kid actually on Christmas morning and I just thought it was so cool as one of the reasons we reached out to Alex. And it's something from you know building a little box that lights up all the way to this thing that looks exactly like Harry Potter's Magic Wand except you can program it with your computer to do special magic tricks. I talked to Alex about his company. Kano but also about why it's important for the kids to create so let's jump into that live conversation. We had with Alex on the floor the consumer electronics show in Las Vegas. All right good morning everybody. Welcome Tom. This is the live taping of function. I'm an ill dash your host. We're here as the guests of our friends at Google as well as of course function being being a podcast produced buyer box media and my company Glitch And I'm also joined here by Alex cline Cano who is we're gonNA talk to some depth about at some of the amazing things is doing but first of all. This is the consumer electronics show. So so anything goes I saw on the news. I haven't seen it in person. There's a smart toilet that has smart speaker in it and then but I mean there's more normal things right. There's there's like your voice controlled speakers and assistance and things are touchscreens. You can have around the House that are gonNA give you insistance. There's all this sort of smart cars and things. One of the most surprising things to me is almost all of what I see here is or in around being in your home in your life. That's it's very different to how. Es was ten years ago twenty years ago where it was like a lot work. This is the machine you're GonNa put on your desk this till you're gonNA interest and one of the things I think that typifies. That is what you're doing at Kano Right. which is this is designed specifically for home for kids? Families can talk a little bit about what your company isn't what you make sure we're so we're we're Cana We create computer. Coding experiences kits for all ages. All over the world we started with the kind of computer kit. I was focusing in your home. He's holding up this really cool. It's got a clear case. And you could see the circuit boards inside. You can see the wires sticking out it looks a little bit like I would get stopped by. TSA IF I took this on a plane but you might not because they want to marvel at the gorgeous you know compliment you and ask where did you buy. This candidate has blinking lights. All right so you know. The basic premise is simple. You follow a story book you put together a real device we demystify. What every component does it comes to life and then our software starts from first principles lead to you on an adventure? You create a profile you at type Some secret words into the command mandoline. The computer comes to life. you start connecting code blocks sounds ring out not wavier coating on the sensors turn your movement into the data and the apiece e b the data tier computer then once your computer receives the data. It turns it into code. It understands whether you go right left up down slow fast and then it makes the code. I in the case of our magic wand Dr Harry Potter wanted starts to vibrate and gloat and sooner. You're coding real applications games. Music Guy Java scrip- Hyphen M. Live for Ucla. The basic premise. Mrs was certainly get into the home. But really you know anywhere where there's a mind that is curious anywhere in our society where we spend a third of our waking hours staring at these post Steve Jobs in Sapphire screens anywhere. Where someone has that sense? How does this work? How do I make it do something new? That's where we want them to try cannon. That's what we do. We've got a computer encoding. Kits kits that let you build speakers and cameras and grits of pixels will let you hack minecraft make music make games and most recently. We've released the Harry Potter Coding Kit Which let's build a wand learn to code cast spells on a screen green and then ultimately make your own magic of Christmas Day this year every second a kid or a beginner. We don't know in the world at made in shared their own spell so it's not just reminding grainger's when Guardian Weasley Lummus. It's your own artifacts are just gonNA come back to Harry Potter Pitch Bill. It's good it's good. No but I think the reason Lebron's because this is such an interesting thing to one sort of personal investment of this is my kids got one right and we. We had that Christmas morning moment where he opened it up and and actually lingered appeared on instead of just like throwing a decide. What's the next? Where's the candy? And it was easy enough than adults can do it. So that was cool. But what you create is You you know it's a kit you can build stuff and that kids can learn to program these blinking lights on these devices and Feel Agency but the thing that jumps out to me is take this ethos in what you're doing and I think what a few others in sort of similar spatial doing which is that. Can we teach a young person. That technology is something they control and they have agency over as opposed to you given this tablet. You're given this phone because you know most of us give our kids tablets when they're three four five pretty young and we use it as a sedative additive right so if you're on a long flight I we. It held off on giving the tablet to my kid until we were like. We went to Japan as a fourteen hour flight. And I might go nuts like as much as you. I WanNa Watch on here and it was great because we didn't have to drag it but you know that's a very different relationship to technology than oh it's something you make something you program of Control. What brought you there? What laid you say and you don't have kids yet so sort of an unusual choice? What brought you to where you want empower people but especially kids to to be able to make and create and control technology? I get I mean there are few touchable. I was born in London. which is why I sound kind of Funky and moved to Seattle when when I was nine and my school was is like weird nerdy school where I think everyone's parents worked for Microsoft and I was like the one arts kid I did theater like like I wanted to write? That was what I wanted to do. And I was kind of alienated not only because I was wearing baggy jeans and crazy long hair and everything but because I didn't know how to code and so I went online and I asked some questions on an online forum and I thought they were basic questions around programming stack overflow mentioned mentioned existed. I probably would've gotten a better answer but I got greased and span back in the day. If you ask programming question and you're a Newbie. You would just get ceaselessly tormented. Yeah yeah so I people online like. That's a dumb question. Like what are you ten years old. I was ten years old so it was kind of a good excuse upsetting but I'm also kind of a member of this post. Steve Jobs sealed Sapphire screens generation. I was addicted to my Mac book. I would lined up for the the first IPHONE and the first time I ever saw the inside of a computer. which is you remarked? Kano Computer Kit is the inside becomes the outside. The inside becomes a story. The first time I saw the inside of a computer when someone near and dear Jimmy frustration something I had done picks up my laptop and smashed it on a concrete floor in front of me. So dramatic dramatic That's why I told this story. Yeah but in that moment of sadness there was this revelation like behind the veil. There's a secret world of circuits and synapses and and and rules using algorithms and violent way to see inside your device. You can buy Kano Computer Nine Ninety nine dollars. I'm I'm I'm like. Maybe a half generation head because we where like we put the computers.

Alex Google Dr Harry Potter Las Vegas Steve Jobs Kano Alex cline Vegas Alex cline Cano Harry Potter TSA Tom Jimmy Mac Feel Agency
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

11:54 min | 2 years ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"Brad Pitt and it was sort of a satirical pretending to be Brad Pitt and very over the top way very odd and then it became the The top Google result for if you search for Brad Pitt hit. That seemed like a big thing. That was getting a lot of people and then Brad Pitt's lawyer Jennifer Aniston at the Times lawyers made them shut it down but it was just stuff like that. There'd be the odd thing where suddenly some page was getting. You know five thousand people a day or something as all the coverage of blogs grew you know and maybe I guess two thousand two thousand and one something like that you know. There is a very obvious traffic boost. I had to get more powerful servers stuff like that and these days somebody like that would probably just make like fake Brad Pitt twitter account absolutely. Yeah absolutely I think at that time. That was something people weren't used to that kind of parody and now it's commonplace because wikipedia hadn't even really become a thing yet. I mean I think it existed hadn't taken off so the idea of like you're editing it yourself or there could be information putting out there and you don't know if it's reliable or not was was pretty new yeah and there was a big period in two thousand and two thousand and one and two were. There was a lot of press coverage where people were like logging. Is this new thing. Hey they are these people crazy like. Why are they writing about themselves online? We've got a lot of really a lot of great press from that and a lot of Technology writers saying you know. Here's something really interesting. That's happening with technology being done with it. That's giving people a voice so that was cool. We got a lot of traffic off of that was Lisa. was that some of the some of that attention why you decided decided to start working on a platform like live journal or like when when was this which over for you where you thought this is interesting enough that I want to be part of it. Well I I knew Brad Fitzpatrick. It's Patrick who started live journal When I met him which I think was in ninety nine or two thousand He needed some server space because live journal was growing bigger than the his closet or wherever he had it at the time in his dorm room. So I said hey this is really cool Yeah go ahead had put you can put it in our in our Colo space For this ISP. So that's kind of how we started talking with each other and you know we all used it at this company so we thought well you should we'll just host it for free. It'll be fine so it's kind of how we I started getting involved with it and He couldn't keep but with growth. Just like you guys are saying. All of a sudden things started growing exponentially more people were getting online and feeling comfortable sharing Live Journal actually had quite quite a few impersonation kind of you know accounts kind of what you're talking about but there'd be whole communities of it where you would just be online a character interacting with each other right and the phantom community as well so what was going to be huge like what was the thing where it just blew up. And you're like oh my gosh. This is going to be everywhere. He told me I said. How much bandwidth do you need? And he gave me the numbers in terms of like the total amount of traffic transferred in a month and didn't really know much about throughput. At the time. The idea of bandwidth where you know if you exceed a certain amount in your pipe any given second you're going to be over capacity and the second. Can he moved in and we gave him what he thought he needed. He was over it and I think that watching that sounds silly. But even he wasn't able to sort of comprehend how large it was at the time in terms of the the sort of the machine power and the bandwidth needs. I feel like that was a story for a little while which we just. Couldn't we had a really hard time keeping up with the growth And so oh you know watching that with broad. Eventually I said you know I do this for this other company. It's not that interesting anymore. I come into this for you. Can I come in. Scale Live Journal all Because I think it is I think it is big. I think for me when I knew that it mattered was when I started talking with people that weren't in my day to day life telling me how important the service was how it was their lifeline. How something that Kept them going. You know if they were dealing with depression or they were dealing with having a hard time developing community wherever they were. When I started to get a sense that this matters more than as a play thing as like a pastime this matters in in your day to day life this is you know it's connecting you on a on a deeper level and so therefore my job which was to make sure the stings available? All the time online online Started to matter on a I guess a deeper level for me and I think that's that's sort of my realization of it being really powerful and important to people. Aw Bruce what were the stories of people don't do. Yeah well. I think we've probably all of us had similar experiences to that right where you found out that people were Using the site as a community because they couldn't find support elsewhere and that we would get e mails every day. We have emails from people who were saying you know. Thank you so much because I've been looking for a place where people would listen to me. We would get emails from people who had been you know considering suicide or considering You know other terrible things and saying you. I've found people to interact with here that I could talk to. And they understood me and We built a community there. And that really you know out of all of it. That was the one thing thing that looking back. You can say feel like we made a difference. We did something that people hadn't seen before and we built a place where are people could interact and get support. We had a lot of people who you know. We're dealing with any number of challenges in their lives and you know it's twenty years ago. It's hard to think about how long ago twenty years ago is but people who were in communities that were You know minimalized by society so the people who were Lgbtq then people who were Living you know below the poverty line or you know there were any number of kinds kinds of communities that didn't have a voice them and they found places like this and found that they could have voice and that people would interact with them. I think one of the main powers of sites sites like this was that you would come on and you would interact and read these people stories without knowing anything about them. I don't know what your races or your religion is or what your beliefs are and I start reading your journal your diary and realized that your person your person just like me And that's like that's one of the things I think is missing in today's social and that's why I think there's space still for things like open diary because people don't have that experience elsewhere Andrew. What was the first time somebody thank you for making diarrhea lander making pizzas? Oh Gosh I don't know I've got a terrible memory for stuff like that. What about blame? Somebody blamed you and said you know your your. Your site made my road my day. People were not email me but every once in a while somebody would ask me to say they They lost their password to their site. Or something they change your email and so I'd go to their site. A you know check it was them or whatever and then their last entry it'd be from six months earlier and they'd be like Andrew Sucks. I hope he dies. This guy's terrible and so I have to reply to apply them like okay. Since you a password reset email go ahead go ahead go ahead. Yeah so not not to really horrible. 'cause you know for for you percents sort of thing. What what what? What were the things or somebody is like you know you did this to me? By giving me this great greats. I utter free. Yeah there were a lot of challenges. I mean we. We were facing a lot of things that hadn't really been like You know litigated in in the online world before there were free speech questions and there was you know we dealt with. Is it okay for somebody to post a picture of them breastfeeding their baby. What's the line? Where do you draw that? And so we were you know I was just navigating that without any there was no previous experience. Anywhere that anybody had with that and The free speech one was huge. Just like we have very specific rules that you can't attack other members you can't call them names. You can't say you know you can't say they're stupid because of their political or religious beliefs whatever ever So there was a lot especially back then of. Oh you're infringing on my free speech. You're taking you know and people posting about the First Amendment and shouting shouting and shouting outing in saying and then saying no. You're in my space right. Not My space our speaking. You're in in my space now so you got follow my rules and we did. There was a lot of that. Like people are. Oh you gave me the retool and you connect with all these people and now you've taken my free speech away. I mean there's always this moment where I have to remember. You know we were so young so some of these issues which now we look back and think well of course we had a hard time with that. Of course we made mistakes. What are you gonNA expect? You're twenty years old But at the time just seems so big and daunting But you know we you know. We experimented with ADS That was the people. Were pretty vocal about that experience. Vocally supportive right. The great you know and again it's I have a different perspective just because I was so involved with the performance and availability side of the service. But you know we you know when I think going back to the question of knowing how big it was and the Aha moment the faster we can make the site. The larger the community grew not just in terms of traffic for the number of users. So we figured out pretty early on if we can keep keep this thing clicky fast. That's what we would say You Click you get the thing which back then was not necessarily guaranteed all for sites online. It wasn't is an easy but we figured we were like. Wow this is insane I mean it. was you know visceral lake. I made this piece of the site faster and it grew to fill that space immediately mmediately and then the community grew so there. You know figuring out that there's this connection that people wanted this so much that as much as we can make available they would take and they would grow and Dan so anything that we did decisions. The ads were one of them You know if we ever made you know had regressions after deploy if we made decisions decisions around our network or machine changes that caused the site to get slower for any reason caused this great just horde of complainers. Because you know they're like you showed me that. This site was awesome and fast and you just took that away from me so that that was the that's one that I will never ever forget which is as fast as I could. Were people. Were still probably complaining that it wasn't fast enough so we've talked a little bit out all these challenges of growing going in scaling and success problems really Andrew. I'll start with you. I'm curious about like people may not understand what was considered big back. Then so ascites started to grow How many people are you talking about? How many diaries or you know different sites we were you hosting the that was considered a big scale back then I mean at the probably at the peak I remember getting about And this was all due to sort of media attention like you'd get a few more but probably at the peak. I I was getting maybe two thousand twenty five hundred new users a day and you know these days that's not really considered too much For a start up with a bunch of funding or whatever but that was Yeah really exciting back then. I think that probably had a few hundred thousand active active users really posting all the time. Well and nobody had been growing at that level of signing up two thousand people and you were doing. I assume zero advertising of any kind..

Brad Pitt Andrew Sucks Live Journal Brad Fitzpatrick Times Google ascites Scale Live Journal Jennifer Aniston Patrick Lisa. Bruce Dan
"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

Function with Anil Dash

08:14 min | 2 years ago

"anil dash" Discussed on Function with Anil Dash

"Only your small community of friends. It wasn't all public which I think a lot of the things before then were pretty public. Let's talk a little bit about timeline. When did open? Diarrhea launched to the Public October Twentieth Nineteen ninety-eight roughing was. Yeah that's when it went online about seven pm eastern right and then Andrew. Diary Landon landed Pitas. While Peterson was I was was not too much later. In Ninety nine right yeah Pitas was first. DYRLUND was probably five months later or something like that. Yeah to my recollection election. I think I think pitas was in the springtime a ninety nine and was like August September October right. Yeah I think it was August or so and then blogger Dot Com launched in September of ninety. Nine so what we have. Is You know in the span of a year The three four five sites come online and there. We're maybe one or two others but these were certainly the dominant ones across. You know. I guess I don't know what we'd later may be because the blogosphere whatever it was but part of it was blogs and diaries hirees internals were all seems very different things. What was your perception of a block? Initially called a weblog. Yeah exactly so. In Ninety eight when we first launched a weblog was kind of very similar to what Andrew was describing like. It would be somebody who was maybe posting links posting Information about like. What were they doing their job? Or things like that You know the the idea of like actual journalists blogs was still a long ways vice off them so you can't really compare them to blogs today to whereas we thought about a diary or journal that was a regular person talking about their our regular life and what are their everyday experiences And then when you add in the interaction with the you know what Lisa was pointing out we saw the same thing As people started interact with each other became this whole huger more amazing thing than just people posting their personal journals and like one of the key differences we we saw between live journal and open diary was with Lisa describe with live journal where groups of people who knew each other would use it sort of like how facebook is now was much more prevalent avalon on there then open diary opened Ari tend to be more people were posting their You know personal things that they didn't WanNa put somewhere else and didn't necessarily invite their friends friends and family to come in back then. Your friends and family weren't necessarily online. Have Modems right and at least I'm curious for you whether that sort of beers you're expressed i. Yeah I was actually just thinking as I was remembering my diary land account I maintained that account even as I started using journal and create you know became part of that whole community because my diary land account was actually sort of more like a diary like literally talking about my inner feelings and desires and sort of how I interacted with the world in a certain way that was not how I projected or what I talked about on live journal because I still was talking in my community and my friends in so diary land. I actually kept as a sort of private diary now. If somebody happened to read it or was totally anonymous on there. That would be fine fine but I maintain that for quite a while. I had both Because I did see the distinction there. Repeaters was almost pointedly. Not about about weblogs. It was about Peterson about diaries. Right I would say the main thing it with Pitas that differentiated it from dyrlund was just the pitas. It is was multiple posts on one page that I would say it was more like the weblog format whereas diarrhea land was just To begin with anyway was just one post per page which I mean. At the time there were a lot of people doing you know online. Diaries and I was sort of aware of those people people like doing you know with html and everything but Pitas was something. I just sort of throw up in the meantime while I was working on Ireland just to do that. Weblog LOG FORMAT SO YEAH I would say it was more actually of the weblog format. It's interesting because it feels like well. Maybe this is more of a diary land thing. There was almost a tension between these communities like diaries or one thing and blogs or another and you sort of picked one camp that you're in or or a different side your persona were expressed through different tools right. Oh absolutely There is quite a division back. Then I mean that was the whole reason that I started to different sites and then I guess when blogger started getting in big vase to me always. It seemed like they kind of made the conscious decision of. Let's call it a blog and kind of get everybody onto our thing you know and kind of Meld it. Maybe I mean I don't know if they actually were the ones that caused everything to kind of Meld or whether it was going that way anyway but I felt like people who used blogger and blog spot were more There wasn't that division for me when I think about that and how I I use those platforms and then I saw blogger and what I saw as a distinction with weblogs was that because of the sort of private nature of diarrhea Korea or journals. A lot of people didn't use their real identities. They didn't use their real names and their user names general and the Internet back. Then you weren't necessarily early coming forward with your real name. You weren't Presenting as the person that you were in real life you're presenting the persona that you had in your diary or journal and I you know that's that was true for blogs as well but that is in my mind that's when I think of starting to see blogs associated more with real writers real journalist has three people who are representing themselves online as the way that they that they've moved through the real world and to me that was a big change from the sort of diarrhea dowry and journals to blogs. And what we see today so the standard might have been You're either anonymous or you used used your your online hacker hindle or your AOL screen name or whatever it was you were you were neo from the Matrix. You had a very different persona. Yeah was that was. Is that the conventional an open diarrhea. We actually required users to be anonymous in the beginning like our rules. Were very specific. You could not post your personal information information And we considered that important for safety because of what people were writing about so that lasted for a few years. Obviously it's not like that anymore are posted him to be real name if you want to But Lisa makes a really good distinction like distinction to me between blogs then and today hey are blogs are usually people who are writing for an audience or to get their opinion out about something You know it's what happens on medium. It's what happens on a lot of different tools now versus somebody who's writing for themselves being interaction with the community that they don't necessarily want to share you know their absolute identity so if you're reading that piece that we have today and you're gonNA put your name on it and I want to be the leader on this idea and you were to do that on one of these platforms back around the turn of the century. What would the reaction be the response be? That's a good question I don't there wasn't it wasn't a distribution mechanism for think pieces. That was the thing could make a name for yourself off. No you couldn't make a name for yourself because you weren't using it real name and I posted things and I still do. I will write things that I think of as think pieces but I'm doing it more to say here's here's what I actually believe in and here's my manifesto but I'm putting out and You know if somebody figures out that it's my writing. That's fine but I'm I'm not doing it to promote myself. If I wanted to promote myself I'd go on medium or on twitter You know somewhere else other channels to my real name Andrew. When you had people that that had diaries stories started to get popular ARPITA starting to popular? What did that look like? How do people respond to it? How did you know something was catching on? You would just see the interaction between people on the site and you know you go to one diary. They'd be talking other people mentioning them. There are few cases early on that. Were really big One of the biggest or most popular users on the site he started a second account called.

Andrew Diarrhea Lisa Peterson dyrlund Pitas Landon twitter Dot Com facebook Ireland Korea AOL Ari