6 Episode results for "Angela Wright"
What Does Joe Biden Owe to Anita Hill?
"The. It's always good to be in the know. But it's especially important when it comes to your personal information like social security number. That's why discover card is here to help. They send an alert if they find your social security number on anyone of thousands of risky websites. Best of all this service is free for card members. I have to do is sign up online. It's just one more way. Discover looks out for you not just your account. Learn more at discover dot com slash free alerts. Limitations apply. What did you expect would happen? When Joe Biden declared his candidacy for president. I think I expected it to go pretty much as it's gone. Dull wake writes about Washington and the law for sleet, high name recognition. He is a meme, you know, the sunglasses guy people just kind of have this deep funnest to be honest dully is pretty fond who Biden to even some of the stuff that other people drag him for like that video. He put out an ounce his candidacy choose kind of into it. I think his Charlottesville ad was freaking beautiful with can't forget, what happened Charlottesville even more important. We have to remember who we are. This is America. And I thought it was powerful at the same time. I guess I thought he had twenty years twenty eight years to figure out what his answer was on a need a hill. And did I expect him to just blow it and then go on the view and blow it again? And then go, you know, national television, imploding, no, I expected him to have given this meaningful thought, and whatever it is. He's doing doesn't feel like he's processed. What happened back in nineteen Ninety-one when a law professor named Anita hill accused supreme court nominee Clarence Thomas of sexual harassment. It was Joe Biden who got to make the call about what happened next. He was the chair of the Senate Judiciary committee at the time. Looking back almost no one thinks he did a very good job. And he spent the last week apologizing for that you reached out to Anita hill. She has recently said when? Asked a few felt it was an apology that you had extended. She said no that she said I cannot be satisfied by simply saying I'm sorry for what happened to you. I will be satisfied when I know there is real change and real accountability. And real purpose. We'll share. That's what she told me. I was grateful. She took the call. Did you watch the apology tour? Yeah, I'm sorry. She was treated the way she was treated. I wish we could have figured out a better way to get this thing done. I did every he's IMAS interstitial space between take responsibility. And I'm sorry for your pain. But he hasn't married. Those two things together. I don't know what he's taking responsibility for and I don't know that he really is sorry for her pain expressed his regrets. Well, I think he did the the new millennium apology, which is I'm sorry. You're sad. Anita hill is said that after spending hours testifying about deeply personal experiences. And then watching as the man sheet accused was sworn in any way, she wants Biden to do better to step up to publicly acknowledge he hasn't done enough to prevent what happened to her from happening again actually feel bad because he's obviously struggling, but it's a funny role reversal, right? Where the woman is saying I don't care about my feelings. Frankly, don't care about your feelings fix the system. And the guy is just like kind of a puddle talking all these women interviewers about how sad he is. And I find it it's so fascinating. I mean, just as a kind of cultural moment. He's doing this thing that has become what we do. And we get caught for things now, which is just to kind of implode into a big pudding e thing. Dahlie, wants us to set aside this gush of emotions and ask what exactly happened back in nineteen Ninety-one? Anyway, if saying I'm sorry isn't enough. What more do we want from Joe Biden? I'm Mary Harris. You're listening to what next stay with us. Third. Love is abroad comedy. That is all about doing more. Like, they have seventy sizes of bras, including half-cup sizes, really every bra that they saw has one hundred percent fit guarantee each customer. You you got sixty days to wear a bra wash. It put it to the test. And if you don't love it, you can return it, and then third level wash it and donate it to a woman in need their love team of fit stylists are dedicated to helping find your perfect fit. You can even text them or chat them or call him up. Returns and exchanges are free and easy third. Love knows there's a perfect proffer everyone. So right now, they're offering my listeners fifteen percent off your first order, go to third love dot com slash what. Next now to find your perfect fitting bra and get fifteen percent off your first purchase. That's third. Love dot com. Such what next for fifteen percent off today. So let's go back because I feel like you're you're saying some really interesting specific things, but I think people have really forgotten the hearing itself. I just wonder what were you doing an internet one? Were you in law school were us right before I started law school? Do you remember watching these? Yes, I was writing a book, and I was in some cabin in Pennsylvania. And I remember having one of those TV's where you had like an antenna that you'd have to sort of hurl into the wall in order to get TV reception. And you couldn't move once. He got it. But I remember gavel to gavel watching. I remember feeling so acutely that she had done this. I thought rather remarkable job, especially because these men were belittling and shaming. And I think that's the thing people forget right that they're comparing her to the exorcist, and they're telling her she's an attention whore. I mean, awful awful, and she just flat lines her way through it. Can you tell the committee? What was the most embarrassing? Of all the incidences that you have alleged. I think the one that was the most embarrassing was his discussion of of. Pornography involving these women with large breasts and and engaged in variety of sex with different people are animals that was the thing that embarrassed me the most and made me feel the most humiliated. And then Clarence Thomas is mad, and he's like fireworks. He's firework. He lets them have it a circus. So national disgrace. And from my standpoint. As a black American as far as I'm concerned, it is a high tech lynching for uppity blacks who in any way deign to think for themselves. Feeling when Clarence Thomas got mad, which was exactly the feeling. I got sitting in that room in the Senate when read Kevin got mad. This is not American. This is Kafka s it has got to stop. It's funny. How visceral it is to see a process in which the woman gets to have her pain, but the man gets to have rage, and Joe Biden was leading this thing. Right ahead of Senate Judiciary committee, whose gavel-to-gavel he gaveled into session. And he. Said Clarence Thomas should have the benefit of doubt. And he also said that I Joe Biden have the power to rule out questions if it's getting out of line. And then what happened the Republicans came in completely aligned on point loaded for bear. They were gonna get this guy confirmed. There was a plan. And I think that by really he just wasn't prepared that he came in trying to be in a very Obama like way statesman trying to be bipartisan trying to be fair trying to meet everyone where they were. And you have Senate Republicans who are just sitting up there saying, you should see the mail. I'm getting about what a whore you are back. It's like unbelievable. Attacks from Republicans in the Senate. And I think he just didn't realize that they were going to burn the whole thing down to determine what you move invasion might be. A you a scorned woman. Do you have a militant attitude relative to the area civil rights? Do you have a motto complex issue fantasy has arisen? A you interested in writing a book, and this hearing was all about allegations Nita hell had made the Clarence Thomas sexually harassed her while she was working at the EEOC right him. Yeah. But even though she was making these allegations. She was really the person who is being questioned interrogated harshly. Right, right. I mean, this was the culture at the time. And we again forget that in nineteen Ninety-one. The culture allowed them to say, why didn't you report it? Why did you stay friends with him? Why did you? Keep in touch with him after you know, the kinds of questions that now were a little bit more savvy than to say out loud. Why didn't you go to HR because we know right? If we've learned nothing else from me to it's that these are power problems, not sex problems. And you just don't report your boss, if what you say this man said to you occurred, why in God's name would you ever speak to a man like that the rest of your life? That's a very good question. Always think of this larvae article that kitty MacKinnon wrote about a year ago where she was talking about title nine Judaization in college campuses. And she said still to this day for every accused there have to be three accusers. Right. Like, the number of women who have to come forward to equal one man's story because of the power dynamic because of the power dynamics, and because women are generally just not hugely believed. I know that that's somehow in dispute, what did you see from Joe Biden in these hearings that stood out to you where you thought this is a problem. I certainly remember having the sense that he was bending over backwards to look fair that it was very important to him. And this is so salient today. Right. This is this is rod Rosenstein now, this is attempts to look fair in situations that are inherently not fair. But in a way, that's. Honorable sure it is in the same way that rod Rosenstein is honorable right. But in order to look fair he had to trash the press features last week. So I think that it's always a problem. And there is this a symmetry of I believe in the process, I believe in the process. That's what Biden saying he's saying the truth will out, and so I'm going to create the fairest process. I can without understanding that there was one team that came to us that process to smear and be little hill and one team that came to that process. I I don't know quite what Democrats on the committee were doing, but they didn't look as though they had a plan. One of the things that really stood out to me. The more read about the Nida hill, Clarence Thomas hearings, and Joe Biden's role in it is the fact that he could have called other women to come forward and support. What Anita hill was saying. These three other women have put themselves out here out there over the years saying we expected to be called and. They weren't can you? Tell me a little bit about those women because I think a lot of people don't remember their stories. Yeah. I think there were there were two other women who worked at the and one was this woman rose Jordain who would corroborate some of the accounts of Thomas behavior at the C and Sukar Hartnett who wrote to the committee, quote, if you were young black female and reasonably attractive, you knew full well, you were being inspected. And addition is a female by Thomas while working for him. And Angela Wright was the single most important person. She was also a former E employees. She said that Thomas had asked about her breast size. He had pressed her for dates, which is the thing. He'd allegedly done to hill. She was deposed. She was flown to what Washington she was supposed to be subpoenaed. And then by never called her to be clear Biden seems to be saying now that they chose not to come to testify. It's interesting. Doug of war where he saying. I wanted them to testify. I had them sign an affidavit saying they were welcome to testify and they were declining. But then you also have a former aide of his coming forward and saying, yeah, I recommended that they made a strategic they made a strategic decision. They thought they'd pop it into you know, they just take the depositions and pop it into the record. And then it would be some kind of. Gotcha. But what it meant was that? There were no names, and no faces there was no there needed to be a team. And there wasn't so Biden made the strategic choice like, okay, I'm just going to take everything told me write it down. Make sure all the committee members have it. But because it was faceless. This was a big problem. The other thing we should say is that Joe Biden did vote against Clarence Thomas in some ways. It's like he's doing everything. Right. Just not at full capacity. I guess is the way to say it. It's like he's actually checking all the boxes he's not voting for him. He's putting the information in the record. So if he were to do it all over again tomorrow. What would you want it to look like, well, I think that's that's the conversation. I want him to have I want to start from the proposition. And you're right. The generous version of this is he wasn't psychic. He didn't know what was going to happen when he gave Thomas the opportunity to speak first and speak last. He didn't know what Thomas was going to do our say he was trying to be fair. He was making decisions that he didn't have the foresight to know would prove unfortunate because the whole story didn't come out. And so you're right. That's the generous few and then he ticked the boxes. I think we have to make decisions about how we're going to do these Senate hearings. Generally, we've now seen two of them that were spectacularly awful in which the public finds the witness to be as credible as possible and believes her wholeheartedly, and then turns around and says what we don't care, and I think that what? Biden could do today is say stipulated that was a mess. I didn't know I made mistakes should've called Angela, right, whatever. But say it say an own the problems rather than saying, I'm so sad that she said that sad. What I think he would say, well, these hearings were a mess and afterwards, I really tried to fix things it spurred my interest in the violence against women act. I made sure that there are women on the judiciary committee moving forward. And that was me I did try to fix structural problems. Why isn't that enough? I think that would probably be enough for a lot of us. And I think the question then becomes whether it's enough for Nita hill. And maybe what's tricky here is that we're using her as the yardstick for what is. Adequate and sufficient, and I don't speak for any hill, obviously. But I think she would probably just say until he recognizes how these so-called factfinding enterprises are stacked against the accuser, then that's just not going to work for her. And I again, I think it takes you back to the central irony. Which is she's not holding herself out is this tragic. Broken figure. In fact, every time I've ever interviewed her she's fine. She doesn't want pity. She just wants to know that when the third person comes out and accuses the next supreme court Justice who may have allegations that there's a system in place that isn't a joke. And I think that's all she's really. Asking in that doesn't seem a huge lift to me. I want to talk about Nita hill because in the thirty years since this happened she's gone on to live her life as a professor she's at Brandeis, right? And you've spoken to our number of times, and she's really made talking about gender inequality and harassment her life, and she said, the legal remedy has really failed here the legal remedy against sexual harassment, which I think is interesting because you're saying we need to fix the legal remedy, and she's almost given up on it. Right. And that's the kitty MacKinnon story to write that the people who were the architects of legal systems are. I don't think I mean, I think professor hill is the first person to say, no, we just fix it, and we fix it. She really is such a passionate believer in the law. But I think that she looks at this as you all are laser focused on me as the victim or Dr Blasi as the victim or whoever the victim is in anyone story, and that doesn't fix processes what fixes processes is relining power. And I think maybe maybe that's the answer. Here. I am. I'm winning my way to the answer to your earlier, very hard question. Which is what does she want? I think she wants somebody to recognize that having that power and not acknowledging that having that power requires fixing systems rather than just saying, you know, as Biden said like, I was responsible. I had the. Power. But like, not repairing it. I think is the thing that just devastates her. If that makes any sense trusting the system is the ultimate male privilege. Yeah. I think that she would simply say gather information and don't use these as a smokescreen to have kind of the theater of factfinding without facts. We can't keep calling these processes, they're not their performances. Dalia? Thank you so much for chatting. Thank you for having me. Dahlie, Olympic rights for sleet and hosts, the amicus podcast. All right. That's the show before he did the credits. I have a super special announcement just heard that on June eighth which is slate day New York City, I'm gonna get to interview. Wyatt synapse the comedian live on stage. I'm super stoked about it. And I really want you to be there. So if you wanna see this, please come through and get your tickets as soon as you can at slate dot com slash slate day twenty nineteen. All right. What next is hosted by me Mary Harris produced by Mary Wilson, Jason Leone and Anna Martin today we had help from Samantha Lee. Thanks for listening. I'll talk to you tomorrow. It's always good to be in the know. But it's specially important when it comes to your personal information like your social security number. That's why discover card is here to help. They send an alert if they find your social security number on any one of thousands of risky websites festival. This service is free for card members. I have to do is sign up online. It's just one more way. Discover looks out for you not just your account. Learn more at discover dot com slash free alerts. Limitations apply.
Hammer Killing Murder Trial-Part 1: FL v. Mark Sievers
"The views and opinions expressed in. This podcast are simply that opinions. All are presumed innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law sensitive live topics are discussed. Discretion is advised On this week's court. TV podcast as the Hammer. Killing murder trial continues in Florida. We look back on the blockbuster testimony of Curtiss Wright the admitted murderer who plays his best friend. The victim's husband has been marked Seger's hired him to do the killing was his testimony credible or did the defense convinced. The jury right is not to be trusted. Well uncovered all and the dramatic bird and sentencing. Of An reese Agoura this is the court. TV podcast with vinny politics. Cosima happy Thanksgiving everyone and welcome to the court TV podcast. I'm Sima Ir here with with the man. I am so thankful to cohost this podcast with and be on the television with vinny pollen. Greatest seem happy Thanksgiving and I can't believe how much justice we are serving up on court TV during this time of year. It's unusual I mean in all the years that I've been associated with court. TV and other places that are covering trials. Trials rarely have. I seen court in session on the week of Thanksgiving and leading up to the Christmas holidays. Well time of year where everyone's supposed to take a break and take some please. I think this is a great time to give a shout out to all of the people that make court. TV happen and and we do. We have these incredible assignment. Editors trial trackers. And they're the ones who are scouring the country literally to to find us these trials. We are really lucky. The people we work with are just dedicated passionate about what they're doing and again. I'm surprised because all my years of court. TV TV never where we live in a trial this time of year. It's unusual but it's happening so we've got a lot to talk about today. Let's begin with a case that really elite. I think the results of the case more controversial than any other trial since the relaunch of the network. Which is the case of Florida versus Henry? SA- Gurre era. Yes Henry Sequeira found guilty of wiping out an entire family and we were all on your show together and our mouths house collectively dropped absolutely stunned because you know the trial took more than a week. Lot of testimony lot of exhibits and the defense had their own theory about what happened and we were charged with the murder of brandy. Peter's girlfriend who is cheating on his wife with their child who they had together and her twin daughters the children the twins were six his little son Giovanni just three years old accused of quadruple murder but he said it was the drug cartel but the jury said otherwise. Take a listen state of Florida versus Tanneries Cigar. We the jury is follow says one of them concerning the murders brandy feeders. The jury finds the defendant is guilty of first degree murder as count two we the jury find as follows as account to indict the concern in the murder to my appears defendant is guilty of first degree murder as to count three we the jury find the defendant is guilty first grade murder as count for the jury and the defendant is guilty of first degree murder and this happened just three hours and forty five admits into deliberations. It was relatively short deliberation for the length of this trial and the complexity of it. So I along with everyone else was thinking okay probably a not guilty but it was the exact opposite it was guilty only six jurors not twelve right was Henry gerbers choice this was a retrial. At his first is trial it was eight to four for acquittal so the defense was feeling very confident. Going in they want this resolved he had served more than three thousand days in jail awaiting for a final verdict in the case and he got it and it was guilty. But what was so funny. Is that my first instinct. When there is a quick verdict is always always this is a conviction all the time because most of them are guilty? No no no that's not it. It's just formulaic laic. When there is a quick verdict it's a conviction that's it? This is just from my experience. I agree my experiences. Well Okay Okay but this time we all assumed the opposite because the defense put on such an extensive case because there was very rich in detail L. in their theory that the Mexican drug cartel did it but I think the prosecution and this also fits into our theory of how prosecutors generally are more successful during the retrials because they are able to fix their mistakes for instance. This Angel Avila Kenya's his DNA allegedly found at the crime scene. They brought in DNA specialist. Say No it wasn't his DNA so that was one thing they did. And then they you did an interview with Angel Villa Kenya's and he said no I was never there was just an actual drug trafficker okay. This was he was he was in school. Okay that's great. That's good I think you need to be accurate or listen over in Italy's our yeah. He's studying I don't know studying or machine now maybe like pharmacological studies. I really know what he's signing. But he is studying and he is in Italy Italy and better. He's in Italy than the United States number one. But number two he was an actual drug trafficker so his DNA allegedly being at. The scene was huge but again the prosecution was able to overcome that because they believe that was not his. DNA was a mixture and their specialists said. No that's not. His DNA jury believed it did not believe it was reasonable. That can Yoenis was there now. That was absolutely shocking to me right because there were so so many things. Get a couple of alleged confessions by other people involved with the case but none of it really panned out one hundred percent for the defense obviously as we see it was enough for reasonable. Doubt right right because they don't have to prove the case they have to present a reasonable alternative. Yeah so the prosecution theory question Mark Right which is what I thought perhaps could have happened. Yeah but it didn't and I believe the jury got it right but that's besides the point. Let's listen though to Henry Sager because this was a death penalty case so now. He's been convicted convicted quadruple murder and he decides to put on no defense when the issue is not guilty not guilty the issue is life life or death puts on. No Defense of the judge has to question him about it. You wish them to make argument opposition to that. And what is your thinking on Bacon socities deserved it. They feel guilty since sued. So you understand that taken. This action is gone increased likelihood as the the jury will come back recommended that penalty and ultimately order that they recommend it this. And that's what you want to have. So this is another shocking moment in this trial where it's life or death everything on the line. We have to talk about this. And he says don't make an argument for me don't present any evidence don't put on family members. Nothing says nothing to the completely uncomfortable with this decision. However ver the lead attorney Nate Prince? Yes nate prints. Nate print says that he obviously spoke to Sikora spoke to the ethics committee which all lawyers have to abide by their rules as do judges and they were okay. Hey with this idea of not presenting any type of case any type of defense and the reason behind it is that death when people aren't death. Row those appeals are looked at first that was there an amazingly the jury said life unanimously. We said like what do you think about what he did they did. I think it was an emotional reaction to the moment I think Henry Girl was you know. He spent three thousand days in in jail and his reaction to all of this and it means one of two things from my perspective but I think it was one hundred percent not strategic emotional reaction to the situation. The reaction is either one that he's completely defeated by the system. He believes he's innocent man and there's no way I'm going to get out of this so you might as well send me to death or I know what I did did and they got me. I committee quadruple murder. I deserve to be on death row. So it's one of the is the former not the latter. Well there's no way I'm not sure I'm not. I try to read the mind of a convicted quadruple murderer. Now but I'm thinking a lawyer right. I don't think that's just a I. Just don't think that was a good idea. Well it it turned out to be great and this is what I want to ask you. What does this tell us about criminal defense attorneys all right at the guilt phase? The defense puts on this incredible case. He is incredibly incredibly passionate. Witnesses is at times screaming and pleading with the jury and making all these arguments and laying out all this evidence and they find against him then in the penalty phase. He does nothing. He's tired he needs a NAB. Did you see how tired is bags under his eyes seems seems rest. He was stressed out absolutely seems like they had. The jury was making their decision. Regardless of what arguments were made by these all the time which was amazing to me in all phases sometimes jurors come up with reasons that we could not even surmise. So I I'm just. I am not happy. Happy with the strategic maneuvering but it worked out and I do believe in the end. Justice was served. Absolutely no we. We could spend a whole lot of time talking about what happens next but at the end of the day he's convicted. He has an uphill battle if he's going to win any appeal or try to get any sort of a new trial. Okay now we are going to talk about the trial that we're covering right now here on court TV and up next. I am going to ask you the question. Will the swinging ways of Mark cevers helps sway. His jury talk about that next missing. More Murray covers the mysterious. This disappearance of twenty one year old college student more Murray in February two thousand four Mora drove three hours from her dorm in Amherst Massachusetts. It's to the white mountains of New Hampshire and vanished. She has not been seen nor heard from sense. Now to filmmakers set out to find answers sir this mystery by diving deep in the Moore's life the region in which she went missing and the online world of citizen detectives find the full archive live on stitcher premium since producing over one hundred episodes on. More Murray's mysterious disappearance. The hosts are branching out to other missing person and unsolved cases as they promote the nonprofit private investigations for the missing which was started by the father of missing person. Brianna maitland checkout missing more. Murray on in your favorite podcast. You're now Florida versus mark. CEVERS happening now on court. TV Mark Sievers is the husband who is accused of hiring a hitman getting in his best friend to kill his beloved wife. Dr Theresa's savers. This happened back in Twenty fifteen fifteen mark cevers on trial now. There was a cooperating witness. His best friend Curtis Right. He testified testified against him and just about a month ago on October. Twenty third Jimmy Ray Rogers. who was the a friend of Curtis Right? The hitman who got involved in this whole mess. He was convicted of second degree murder murder. So Mark Cevers is the husband he gets his friend. Curtis right curtis rate gets his friend. Jimmy Rogers and finally marks Devers is on on trial for ordering the hit on his wife. You left out some important facts here. What like Curtis right is not just the Hitman? He is the best friend and d'appel gang exactly allowed the defendant which is a creepy factor. That he looks just like the man that he he is best friends with. It looks just like the man who prosecutors say he hired to kill and murder his wife and before. This trial even started i. We got some glimpse into the lifestyle of the CEVERS. And Vincent. I have to thank you for turning me onto this motion motion. This is the greatest motion I've ever signed on to it. I just handed it to you. Okay sustained so motion Lim nee pertaining to defendants sexual. Aw activity greatest legal jargon. I have ever read now. This motion initially was filed by mark. SIEVERS defends ends team to keep out allegations that the cevers engaged in a swinging lifestyle. Do you know what you need to define swingline each of you. Just oh I have. HP Lisa fancy okay open marriage or swinging now that was initially the defense ends teams. Let's keep all of this out. But then they retracted the motion so we went into this trial thinking it is going to be a free for all sex positive city. I was very excited except it seemed like this was shut down really early. When uncourteous right testified on cross examination this question was asked and it was all shutdown? Interesting thinks shift in the conversation to recall what happened in the conversation after that for the next three to five minutes. Fleming ask you about your sexual preference than me. Yes sustained detect Levin. Wanted to know if you had a sexual tool relationship with markelle verse. Didn't you objection sustained. Just approach sure her all right. That was a little unexpected. I The open open. Marriage and lifestyle is one thing and then the Hitman is in love with the the man who hired him interpreted that different than I did really. Yes some clear to me what they were asking now. No I think he needs to get your mind out of the Gutter and and I will explain to you. How Cross examination works? Okay you ready okay. So you're telling me this is how an open marriage works now. Now I haven't had a marriage let alone an open one but There's still hope for yet vincent okay. So here's the deal. I really believe all seriousness. The defense attorney was trying to lay see the foundation. And just bring out this term sexual relationship now. I don't think he meant to point the sexual relationship between Curtiss Wright and Mark Cevers I think he was just laying the foundation to introduce that the rights so Angela right wife of Curtis right so Angela and right husband and wife. You understand what I'm saying had a relationship with Dr Theresa Theresa Fevers in Mark Seaver. So all of the couples may be hooked up. Maybe I don't know if they did but I think for mark excuse me and choked up there I mark. It would be important to come up with some something else that is going on in the life of Curtis right that would give him motivation to kill. Dr Theresa Seaver so if there is some sort of relationship physical sexual emotional relationship that might make a little more sense to the jury in coming up with an alternative reason other than the five million dollars in life insurance that mark sievers would get and then he would ultimately ultimately pay some of that to his best friend who we hired to actually commit the murder So I think it's an important place for the defense to go. But it seems like they're shutdown going going there and we don't know why because I know that we've asked our field team in our producers and no one seems to understand why that line of questioning was shut down especially because the motion motion was retracted right and more of the narrative and Cevers cevers keeping some sort of personal. Yes okay well. There's a few things. Okay okay well the one thing I want to point out is at sears. He made to initial statements after the the murder occurred and he went in voluntarily early. Whatever his second statement which was July first of two thousand fifteen? The murder took place on June twenty. Eighth Excuse me. Just a few days later he specifically Said said that he believed Dr Theresa Seaver. His wife did not cheat on him and I was surprised that he said that. Because I I think it works both ways. I I think he's if he said yes she was cheating on me then. Would've given someone else motive to kill her but it also would have made him look like jealous spouse thousand. If you're in an open marriage can you cheat. Yeah of course you again again. You said you didn't WanNa definition but I clearly need a definition. So here's the deal you you can have an open. Marriage is like consent involve right so couple couple everybody's consenting however if one of the spouses steps out and doesn't let the other spouse no hey honey go have sex with one of your friends that is cheating. Do you understand what my understanding was. That Mark Mark Seaver had a journal and in his journal wrote about some fantasies that Dr Theresa Fevers allegedly had about his d'appel ganger best friend slash hitman. Yes okay so what so. Mark Cevers kept notes in his phone and he included things about how they weren't having sex enough and they were almost a diary of when they had sex and that also important to note is that the police did recover photos videos and facetime chats of mark. CEVERS having affairs right so I just my point is that I think he was calculated. Maybe mistaken and telling the police half of the truth because he could've uses to help him help himself right. But I just want to get to the truth you know. I don't want to necessarily help a defendant. I just WanNa get to the truth of what's going on and to me. It's not clear what this whole relationship is like Mark Savers and his wife. Dr Theresa Cevers and Curtis Right if there is any involvement it seems like there's there's little statements here and there that it seemed to indicate that maybe something was going on but I want the jury to get a full picture and they're not getting trial you any idea why they're not look. Why was that line of questioning shutdown and since that line of questioning we have not heard any evidence about their sexual i? It seems it seems. It's gotta come from Mark Savers. Elliot's got to take the stand if they want to get all this stuff in if they believe. That's what was happening. This is going to shed some light on the truth. I think it's gotta come from him. Because but Curtiss Wright was asked it so he would kind of know it but he was shut down from well from answering. Excuse me if he had sex with. Dr Theresa Fevers. He would know it right right but he never really right because this trial makes it so confusing to save us never asked that yes. He was never asked that how ever you're listening. This is a preview for what's up coming in the trial is that marks Devers could take the stand. Yeah well well curtis right already did okay. And one of the things he talked about about this alleged hit man is his wedding his wild wedding. Now you've probably heard a lot of crazy like day before four or just before the wedding bachelor yes I hardy type stories. This next one is wildest of them all Fato court. TV Live over the air uninterrupted. If you're watching television mission with an antenna just rescan your channels now to add court. TV AND GO TO COURT TV DOT COM to see the exact channel position and more ways to watch court TV in your area. So Curtis Right. WHO's the alleged hitman best friend d'appel gang of the defendant mark savers has a wedding? He lives in Missouri. CEVERS lives in Florida. The wedding is in Missouri and Curtis right as a man not of a ton of means. Okay not a lot of money which is fine but his but his best friend friends devers because he married. Dr Theresa Cevers is flush with a little bit more cash so anyway mark savers makes the trip to Missouri before the wedding in but Dr Theresa is not there. She stays home probably because she has to make money. That's a world. He's gotTa wear his thing so so this. This is the a couple of really crazy stories associated with the wedding. So I'm going to begin with the wedding day and then take you back to the night before the wedding afterwards. Okay I love it okay. So the wedding day Curtis right needs to go pick up the meat for the guests for the wedding okay so this is definitely not a vegetarian. Harian it's not vegetarians. Going to pick up the meat now. He couldn't store it at his own home because there was too much meat. He started summer out of meat so we had to go. He had to go pick it up and when I say they meet hotdogs at no I told you real need I. It's it's a it's a simple. It's actually a nice wedding at a park. It's outside I. It's a very small gathering so it's nice and I'm sure Angela who's getting married to curse was very excited for her wedding day and it should have been should have been the greatest day of her life but what happens is out grabbing now. Aren't you Angie. Oh absolutely and what happened that day mark sievers gets together with Curtiss Wright. Take a listen because curse right testified about what their conversation was and remember visit on Curtis writes wedding day. He's about to devote his life to to his bride and this is what they talk about. Yeah we talked about some more. This really was the same options. Just brought back up in a more. We kinda is that. He told me that really the only option that he had was furniture. Die And he said that he needed to have her killed so on your wedding day on your drive to pick up many free wedding He wants to have his wife killed. Yes US asked me to help him not the best wedding gift okay. Soliciting the groom to be to murder your your wife. This is so outrageous and B.. I can't yet but how do you do that to your best friend. Talking about you would be soliciting people to kill people. If you didn't know that they would kill people it's not like it's so I I don't see this as a wedding gift saying listen. I'm soliciting you to do this. And you'RE GONNA get a lot of money. Consider that my my wedding gift to you now. I think it's an separate doesn't count US gift part of the insurance proceeds from the merger. You're commission okay. But just listen. You need some context here. Okay Curtis right at that point was a convicted felon and computer consultant for the CEVERS verse. Family medical practice. That's right that's right so the point is mark savers already had in his mind. If I'm going to do this I need someone. Someone like Curtis right to help me. Could he wait till after the honeymoon. Maybe why why are you so stuck on this wedding. I think it's outrageous. I think it's outrageous. An an eight runs on their wedding day to kill their wives. Bud General Rule. I have heard this right. General rule defended. Why're are you I? What do you think the relationship is between his wages? Wait wait listen just per example. Perfect example your your. It's your wedding day right so I come to the wedding haven. He congratulations okay. And then I say hey then great wedding my wedding. I'm sh- festival festival seating. I seventy six. It was an experiment I did because at that point in my life I was going to a lot of weddings. What I noticed was 'cause you? Dj Jaren wedding. I did sort of so what I noticed. After weddings I was going to get assigned seats. Okay you go to this wedding you interact with just just four people or five people for the whole wedding. Because you're stuck in that seat so I said I don't want that. I want festival seating so no assigned seats at my wedding. I want you to sit seen here as well. In theory on paper it was but you know what happens. Human Nature People dug in. They took off their jackets in like reserved their chairs. It was it was it was funny but my father made fun at the wedding for doing that anyhow. Okay so this is my point just just to hear God. So let's say I go to your wedding. Whatever and we're at the reception was like hey so and I'm of course like getting drunk and you're drinking club soda like a loser and I say to you? Hey then there's this great TV documentary. I Wi- why to do this with me. What do you think? And you're like. Hey thanks for thinking of me Sema. That's a really nice gesture for you to think of me in. Give me a job opportunity where I will make money. That is the same thing that happened at Curtiss Wright's wedding so stop being so judgmental. Okay can I tell you what happens in an Italian wedding. We don't have that conversation. You just give me an envelope and you give it to the BRI walks around. Everybody gives us envelopes all these other people they register for blenders toes known Italian title wedding. You get cash. 'cause that's why like the bride and groom right okay. You know what. I'm marrying Italian exactly. I had now let me talk about the night before the wedding. Not My wedding curtis right wedding. Okay I beg I would beg if you would but I know you never would so this and and there was a lot of reporting on this and there was a huge document dump and one of the reporters said in the document dump. There was an interview of Angela Right. Okay Angela Angela. Wright the new bride hurts right was asked. Did you ever sleep with Mark Savers Okay and according to the report from from the documents her answer investigators was. I don't think so. I drank a lot the night before the wedding and they look a lot alike. I say this but this gets back to our point that we were just talking about which is the lifestyle which what exactly is going to me me. If that question was that reportings accurate and that question was asked and that's the way it was answered. This opens up a whole different perspective. On the case case because it's now becomes all about the relationships between all these people and could there be a motivating factor outside of money and insurance. That would cause one person person to want to kill another person and when you start talking about emotions and sex. I think you start to get into that area that that is fair game. So does Angela Right. Need to testify. I I think so I think in the defense is the one that he used to call her. The defense absolute defense ash subpoena and call her. Because she's going to testify to find out something like that if she's going to say a statement like that that all of a sudden just meal whole different view of what was going on at the wedding and what is going on in terms terms of the relationships between these consenting adults and here is a bit of a preview in that is the defense has indicated. Perhaps air going to call curtis right again. Yeah get him on the stand. And there's I think the thing that this trial is I don't think we know Oh and again I always want the truth and want the jury to hear the truth. I want them to hear as much as possible and I feel like they. They've got half the story right now about what's it's really going on amongst all these people and I don't believe you can. You can judge what happened in this case until you get that full picture so it may be incumbent coming upon the defense to do that the more. This trial focuses on curtis ride. And then let's say Jimmy Rogers comes in and testifies or Rogers ex-girlfriend Taylor show maker. She testified at his trial. What if she testifies this is all getting farther and further away in my opinion from Mark Seaver? But I think the defense but I think the prosecution has very streamline case that it's about money it's about the cell phones and that was all the motivation we've got these secret communications between savers and his best friend in being able to have this whole thing happened but I think from the defense perspective and from the Truth Perspective to fully evaluate the case and evaluate a Hitman. Because anyone anyone who's committed a murder and testifies take all their testimony with a grain of salt. So I want the complete picture and I don't think the jury has a complete picture yet to pass judgment on whether or not curtis artist. Right is telling the truth speaking of the jury in most of these trials that we've had on court. TV Our focus is the defended. Did or the lawyers or their some witness. That were all enamored with our we focus on but in this trial Florida Lord of versus cevers. There has been a tremendous focus on the jury. We're going to talk about that. And why next for more court. TV Watch it on cable over the Air Roku or go to court TV v DOT COM and streaming live gavel to gavel coverage. Catch up on the big moments from our current cases and relive some of court. TV's most historic trials court. TV TV your front row seat to justice in this trial Florida versus savers. There there have been a lot of crazy issues with the jury. I know I know it happens from time to time. It happens. craziest jury I ever dealt with was the Scott Peterson jury but things that have happened here. Very why were they crazy. Scott Peterson during deliberations the foreperson foreman had like a stack of notes. So I was like all this guys you know. He's going to be the leader there was a mutiny mutiny. Or they voted him out during deliberations. Because he wasn't cooperating operating with the rest of the jury so they got rid of the foreperson unbelievable than the jury. There was mark. GARRIGA's had this boat that he used as a piece of evidence and the jury got to view it but they didn't just view it. They're like jumping on the boat. And if it would tip over I was in a parking garage and then finally the early and finally there was one more juror. Who got booted during deliberations who did some and this remember? You're going back in time back to the early To thousands she did some Internet research and I guess owned up to it so she had to be booted as well. So to jers actually got tossed during deliberations while while they were sequestered at the embassy suites at the embassy suites. Okay well this. I think the judge in this case is trying to keep order. Keep the case moving protect the jury. It really started off very early on in the trial with his reprimanding of the lawyers. Ears listen to this. It's not my business. People WanNa beat a dead horse on each side and I think both sides have made their point if you guys want alienate the jury. That's between each of you. I think the defense made their point that there were several that it was a redacted version or truncated gated version that was entered in. You said you'RE GONNA Enter Yours end during your case in chief which is fine But if you guy I think he major point with the I. Ten in the state yielded state made their point with the six thousand page. They mentioned WanNa go through this. This is fine but I'll tell you. What is my business mister? We're GONNA finish this trial on on time. And if that means we stayed at midnight break my promise to the jury. I'm GONNA do it because we're GONNA finish this trial on time in. This is any any indication of how very every witness is going to be packing dinner. Because we're going to start Stanley Accu. Well it can I. Can I tell you the impact. This has number one on the jury right working late. They'RE GONNA be tired. It becomes more difficult to try the case. And then who's the last anchor standing everyday court. TV because we don't leave to the jury leaves. That would be me well and I'm a little nervous too because I sometimes fill in for you right now. I'm not a night person. I'm not not good at night. But here's the good news sleep. If I get tired Sima actually very close to the studio. I can tell you exactly where she lives. Close why is it so in a pinch like Vince. been on for four and a half hours Let's see here exactly. We're curlers Shit. Nineteen never you know. What's really funny so what I do is i? Don't take my makeup off till after you go off the air because I always just you know our Our listeners know about or did you dress up for the God that our listeners know that you have diabetes one that we don't have to go onto it again but the point is because of that. You're always running. Because you're my friend and shaded. Yeah I something else. I'm thankful for this absolutely. I know. That's what I do is just go home and I put on my little nightgown but I keep all my make just in case I get called in okay so the judge is really. He's he's trying to move this long. He's Jay because Christmas is common and this is what I'm telling you. This is why guys you've got to watch this trial and especially I know closing arguments. You guys do a lot of these mashups. The judge the judge is so funny his face the way he gets annoyed. It's just so great so please check us out or check out like videos on court. TV DOT COM. Okay so now. He's trying to move this along. And then they're an issue pops up. You were talking about the Peterson case. The note taking all right well this popped up. Check it out. I will note for the record when they were leaving. All our alternate one of our alternates was saying there were notes on the back two pages of his pad that substantially thick saying that notes hadn't been destroyed. I don't know if that's every once in a while you get a juror. Who writes on the back and so I guess that might have been missed at another trial or or someone who was doodling at it? I will make sure that when it comes back tomorrow that he he can indicate which pages aren't his and we'll take them out and destroy them whatever they are. What was that? This is insanity. Okay because they are taking notebooks from other trials and giving him to Jers in new trials. How's how checking them I write and instead of just going to the dollar store because you can and spending twelve dollars for a death penalty case to give a brand new notebook to the Jersey I? They're reusing ones and they're supposed to rip out the pages and destroy him so apparently some pages weren't destroyed. What makes us even worse? Is that the trial that the notes were from from. Yeah is the same case and Jimmy. Rogers was tried for the same murder. So the jury from the Jimmy Rogers case wrote notes in their notebook those notebooks books were then given to this jury and at least one juror here got notes from the prior jury. I mean it's not like a Sitcom it's insane and it's twelve dollars. Twelve dollars is all it takes to fix this problem. You'll tell me about budgets though. Actually I bet it is cheaper because sometimes in the dollar store you get those little books. Reporter notebooks by fifty cents. If you buy in bulk this is insane. Wait but then it's not over. It's it's not over this happened next. GotTa Ask all of you to do me a favor and I've been a judge almost thirteen years and had something unusual happened yesterday. how we obviously reuse pads with our jury panel so we save money and we rip out the notes Shrogam. Apparently someone took it upon themselves in a previous jury trial to write on the last two pages even though it was a full pad and left some notes in there with one of our jurors so would acid oxygen each. Look through your pad and make sure there's no other notes and if there are don't read them and let me know so then someone else found notes right. Yeah Yeah another insurer. People another juror had notes from from a jury that was hearing the same case but a different defendant a different trial. Same case Every time I look at the judges face Judge Kyle. I am worried. He's going to stroke out he's GonNa vein out and choke someone he can't handle this anymore. It's too much right. Okay so wait. It's not over with jury issues. All right something else happening and I think this is something that's happened to a lot of lawyers. Let's listen to this Cabela's said let me know that. Looked like he was struggling to stay awake at some point This afternoon I watched him. I don't think he fell asleep but it sure was struggling so playing both sides in case you think I do need be need to make an inquiry and also so both sides can keep their eye on him as well Aw Approach at any time. Italy Falling Asleep Juror. This unfortunately is not one hundred percent an uncommon. It can happen but to me. That is more reflection of the way the case is being tried. I completely agree other than the jurors instead of talking talking about so many witnesses Taylor show maker Angela. Right bringing Angela Wright played Taylor show makers interview or bring her in bring in live witnesses instead ahead of all of these cops talking about testimony and they're doing it in such a slow manner they're losing jury right and things things have picked up incredibly during different parts of this trial. But you have to have. I think as as the person trying the case you've got to have the pulse of the of the case and the pulse of the jury. Sorry to keep their attention and if you lose one who's falling asleep that yes that's not good. We need whatever you're doing not resonate and when you say Paul's I think rhythm you have have to keep the energy up you have to keep rhythm you have to keep them engaged and this is what. I'm hoping Benny Okay so Thanksgiving we're all going to have like blots Turkey and Tryptophan and we're going to be very well rested and everyone's going to be ready to go next week. Here's the problem. Here's the problem. What if that Juror has leftover over Turkey Turkey and and he's making Turkey sandwiches and bring them into the jury room in the afternoon? It's going to be rough. It's GonNa be rough rough. I'm telling you okay. All right we'll see. We'll see them so happy Thanksgiving everyone. We are very thankful for you. We are thankful for you and you know what if you like the podcast you would love court TV itself. If you haven't seen the network we relaunched this spring if you have a digital antenna rescan it. Okay take eight the holiday break to take the digits and rescan because our single now flying in the air across America almost everywhere so the chances are you have right where everyone and you may not even know it. So that's all I have to say about happy Thanksgiving happy Thanksgiving this. This podcast is a production of court. TV could court. TV Dot Com for more content trials on demand and find out how to watch court TV in your area Korea
Encore Episode! Hammer Killing Murder Trial - Part 1: FL v. Mark Seivers - Premium
"Hey Court TV podcast listeners. Courtrooms are still shut down across the country. But that doesn't mean you can't get your fix of the American justice system. We have hours of complete trials available in the trials on demand section of court. Tv DOT COM including the trial. We speak about in this. Encore presentation of the PODCAST. Thanks for listening. The views and opinions expressed in this. Podcast are simply that opinions. All are presumed innocent until proven otherwise in a court of law sensitive topics are discussed discretion is advised him on this week's court. Tv podcast as the hammer killing murder. Trial continues in Florida. We look back on the blockbuster testimony of Curtiss Wright. The admitted murderer who claims his best friend. The victim's husband marked Seger's hired him to do the killing was his testimony credible or did the defense convinced. The jury right is not to be trusted. We'll cover it all and the dramatic bird and sentencing of an reese. Agoura this is the court. Tv podcast with vinny politics and Seema. Ir Happy Thanksgiving everyone and welcome to the court TV podcast. I'm Sima Ire here with the man. I am so thankful to cohost this podcast with and be on the television with the Neapolitan. Great deceased seem happy. Thanksgiving and can't believe how much justice we are serving up on court TV during this time of year. It's unusual I mean in all the years that I've been associated with court. Tv and other places that are covering trials. Rarely have. I seen court in session on the week of Thanksgiving and leading up to the Christmas holidays. Well time of year where everyone is supposed to take a break and take some please. I think this is a great time to give a shout out to all of the people that make court. Tv happen and we do. We have these incredible assignment. Editors trial trackers. And they're the ones who are scouring the country literally to find us these trials. We are really lucky. The people we work with are just dedicated and passionate. About what about what they're doing and again? I'm surprised because in all my years of court. Tv never where we live in a trial this time of year. It's unusual but it's happening so we've got a lot to talk about today. Let's begin with a case that really. I think the results of the case more controversial than any other trial since the relaunch of the network which is the case of Florida versus Henry. Sa- girl yes were found guilty of wiping out an entire family and we were all on your show together and our mouths collectively dropped absolutely stunned because you know. The trial took more than a week. Lot of testimony lot of exhibits and the defense had their own theory about what happened and were charged with the murder of brandy. Peter's girlfriend who is cheating on his wife with their child who they had together and her twin daughters children the twins were six his little son. Giovanni just three years old accused of quadruple murder but he said it was the drug cartel but the jury said otherwise. Let's take a listen to Florida Tanneries Cigar? We the jury find as follows as one of the indictment concerning the murder Brandy feeders. The jury finds the defendant is guilty of first degree murder as the county. Two we the jury find as follows as camp to then I concern in the murder to my. Peter's defendant is guilty of first degree murder as to count three. We the jury find the defendant is guilty of first degree murder as count for the jury is guilty of first degree murder and this happened just three hours. And forty. Five minutes into deliberations. It was relatively short deliberation for the length of this trial and the complexity of it. So I along with everyone else was thinking okay probably a not guilty but it was the exact opposite it was guilty. Only six jurors not twelve right was Henry gerbers choice. This was a retrial. At his first trial it was eight to four for acquittal so the defense was feeling very confident. Going in they wanted this resolve he had served more than three thousand days in jail awaiting for a final verdict in the case and he got it and it was guilty. But what was so funny. Is that my first instinct? When there is a quick verdict is always. This is a conviction all the time because most of them are guilty. No no no. That's not it. It's just formulaic when there is a quick verdict it's a conviction that's it. This is just from my experience. I agree that's my experience as well. Okay but this time we all assumed the opposite because the defense put on such an extensive case because there. It was very rich in detail in their theory that the Mexican drug cartel did it. But I think the prosecution and this also fits into our theory of how prosecutors generally are more successful during the retrials because they are able to fix their mistakes for instance. This Angel Avila Kenya's his DNA found at the crime scene. They brought in DNA specialist to say no it wasn't his DNA so that was one thing they did. And then they did a interview with Angel Villa Kenya's and he said no I was never there could Unisys an actual drug trafficker okay. This was he was he was in school. Okay that's great. That's good. He just needs to be accurate telling listen over in. Italy's our yeah. He's studying studying or machine now. Maybe like pharmacological studies. I really know what he's saying but he is studying and he is in Italy. And he's in Italy than the United States number one but number two he was an actual drug trafficker so his DNA allegedly being at. The scene was huge but again the prosecution was able to overcome that because they believe that was not his. Dna was a mixture and their specialists said. No that's not his. Dna jury believed it did not believe it was reasonable. That can Yoenis was there now. That was absolutely shocking to me right because there were so many things. Get a couple of alleged confessions by other people involved with the case but none of it really panned out one hundred percent for the defense. Obviously as we see in over it was enough for reasonable doubt right because they don't have to prove the case they have to present a reasonable alternative. Yeah so the prosecution theory question Mark Right which is what I thought perhaps could have happened here but it didn't and I believe the jury got it right but that's beside the point. Let's listen though to Henry Sager because this was a death penalty case so now. He's been convicted of quadruple murder. And he decides to put on no defense when the issue is not guilty not guilty. The issue is life or death puts on. No Defense of the judge has to question him about it. You is argument opposition to that. And what is your thinking on bayonet sauce but he's deserved them. They give Sends Food so you understand but they can. Sag is gone increased likelihood that the jury will come back and recommended that penalty at ultimately order that penalty. If they so recommend it. And that's what you want to have. So this is another shocking moment in this trial where it's life or death everything on the line. We have to talk about this. And he says. Don't make an argument for me. Don't present any evidence don't put on family members. Nothing says nothing to Jayme completely uncomfortable with this decision. However the lead attorney nate prince nate prints. Nay Print says that he obviously spoke to Sikora spoke to the ethics committee which all lawyers have to abide by their rules as do judges and they were okay with this idea of not presenting any type of case any type of defense and the reason behind it. Is that death when people aren't death? Row those appeals are looked at first that was there and amazingly the jury said life unanimously said Life. What do you think about what he did I did? I think it was an emotional reaction to the moment I think Henry Girl was you know. He spent three thousand days in jail and his reaction to all of this and it means one of two things from my perspective but I think was a one hundred percent not strategic but emotional reaction to the situation. The reaction is either one that he's completely defeated by the system. He believes he's innocent man and there's no way I'm going to get out of this so you might as well just send me to death or I know what I did and they got me. I committee quadruple murder. I deserve to be on death row. So it's one of the is a former not the latter. Well there's no way I'm not sure I'm not gonNA try to read the mind of convicted quadruple murderer now. But I'm thinking is a lawyer right. I don't think that's just a I. Just don't think that was a good idea. Well it turned out to be great and this is what I want to ask you. What does this tell us about criminal defense attorneys all right at the guilt phase? The defense puts on this incredible case. He is incredibly passionate. Witnesses is at times screaming and pleading with the jury and making all these arguments and laying out all this evidence and they find against him then in the penalty phase. He does nothing. He's tired he needs a nap. Did you see oh tired? His bags under his eyes seem stress. He was stressed out absolutely they had. The jury was making their decision. Regardless of what arguments were made by all the time which was amazing to me all phases. Sometimes jurors come up with reasons that we could not even surmise. So I I'm just I am not happy with the Strategic Berman very but it worked out and I do believe in the end. Justice was served. Absolutely no we. We spend a whole lot of time talking about what happens next but at the end of the day he's convicted. He has an uphill battle if he's going to win any appeal or try to get any sort of a new trial. Okay now we are going to talk about that trial that we're covering right now here on court TV and up next. I'm going to ask you. The question will the swinging ways of mark cevers help sway his jury talk about that next. Florida verses Mark Cevers happening now on court. Tv Mark. Cevers is the husband who is accused of hiring a hitman getting his best friend to kill his beloved wife. Dr Theresa's Cevers. This happened back in. Twenty fifteen marks Devers on trial now. There was a cooperating witness. His best friend Curtis Right. He testified against him and just about a month ago on October. Twenty third Jimmy Ray Rogers. Who was the friend of Curtis Right? The hitman who got involved in this whole mess. He was convicted of second degree murder. So Mark Cevers is the husband. He gets his friend. Curtis right curtis rate gets his friend. Jimmy Rogers and finally Mark Cevers is on trial for ordering the hit on his wife. Left out some important facts here. What like Curtis right is not just the Hitman. He is the best friend and d'appel gang. Do Look exactly allowed the defendant which is a creepy factor. That he looks just like the man that he is best friends with and looks just like the man who prosecutors say he hired to kill and murder his wife and before this trial even started. We got some glimpse into the lifestyle of the CEVERS. And Vincent have to thank you for turning me onto this motion. This is the greatest motion I've ever cited just handed it to you. Okay sustained so motion in lemonade pertaining to defendants sexual activity. Greatest legal jargon. I have ever read now. This motion initially was filed by mark. Sievers defense team to keep out allegations that the cevers engaged in a swinging lifestyle. Do you know what do you need to define? What swinging definition I just I have. Hbo Fancy Okay. A open marriage or swinging now. That was initially the defense team. Let's keep all of this out. But then they retracted the motion so we went into this trial thinking. It is going to a free for all sex positive city. I was very excited except a look. It seemed like this was shut down really early. When Curtiss Wright testified on Cross examination? This question was asked. And it was all shutdown. We had a interesting shift in the conversation to recall what happened in the conversation after that for the next three to five minutes tech flooded. Ask You about your sexual preference dinning. Yes sustain detect. Wanted to know if you had a sexual relationship with mark savers. Didn't you objection relevance sustained? What we approach all right. That was a little unexpected. I the an open marriage in lifestyle is one thing and then the Hitman is in love with the man who hired him and I think you interpreted that different than I did really clear to me what they were asking. No no I think you need to get your mind out of the gutter and I will explain to you. This is how cross examination works. Okay you ready. Oh Okay you tell me. This is how an open marriage works now. I haven't had a marriage let alone an open one but There's still hope for me yet vincent. Okay so here's the deal. I really believe all seriousness. The defense attorney was trying to lay the foundation. And just bring out this term sexual relationship. Now I don't think he meant to point the sexual relationship between Curtis Right Mark Sievers. I think he was just laying the foundation to introduce that the rights so Angela Wright wife of Curtis right so Angela and right husband and wife. You understand what I'm saying had relationship with Dr Theresa's Fevers Mark. Saber so all of the couples may be hooked up. Maybe I don't know if they did but I think for mark. Excuse me and choked up. I think it would be important to come up with some something else that is going on in the life of Curtis right that would give him motivation to kill Dr Theresa Seaver. So if there is some sort of relationship physical sexual emotional relationship that might make a little more sense to the jury in coming up with an alternative reason other than the five million dollars in life insurance that mark sievers would get and then he would ultimately pay some of that to his best friend who hired to actually commit the murder. So I think it's an important place for the defense to go but it seems like they're shutdown going there we don't know why because. I know that we've asked our field team in our producers and no one seems to understand why that line of questioning was shutdown especially because the motion was retracted or the narrative and cevers cevers keeping some sort of personal. Yes okay well. There's a few things the one thing I want to point out. Is that cevers there. He made to initial statements after the murder occurred and he went in voluntarily. Whatever his second statement which was July first of two thousand fifteen. The murder took place on June twenty. Eighth Excuse me. Just a few days later he specifically said that he believed Dr Theresa Savors. His wife did not cheat on him and I was surprised he said that because I think it works both ways. I think he's if he said yes she was cheating on me then it would have given someone else motive to kill her but it also would have made him look like the Jealous Spouse and if you're in an open marriage can you cheat. Yeah of course you okay again again. You said you don't want a definition but I clearly you need a definition. So here's the deal. You can have an open. Marriage is like consent involve right so couple couple everybody's consenting however if one of the spouses steps out and doesn't let the other spouse no hey honey go have sex with one of your friends. That is cheating. Do you understand that? But my understanding was that Mark Cevers had a journal and in his journal he wrote about some fantasies that Dr Theresa Uber's allegedly had about his d'appel gang best friend slash hit-men all. Yes okay so so. Mark Cevers kept notes in his phone and he included things about how they weren't having sex enough and they were like almost a diary of when they had sex and that also important to note. Is that the police. Did recover photos videos and facetime chats of mark. Cevers having affairs right so I just my point is that I think he was calculated but maybe mistaken and telling the police half of the truth because he could have used to help him help himself right. But I just want to get to the truth. You know I don't want to necessarily help defended. I just want to get to the truth of what's going on and to me. It's not clear what this whole relationship is like Mark Sievers and his wife. Dr Theresa Achievers and Curtis Right if there is any involvement it seems like there's there's little statements here and there that seemed to indicate that maybe something was going on but I want the jury to get a full picture and they're not getting it in this trial you any why they're not look. Why was that line of questioning shutdown? And since that line of questioning we have not heard any evidence about their sexual. I. It seems it seems. It's gotta come from March ears. Got To take the stand if they want to get all this stuff in if they believe. That's what was happening and this is going to shed some light on the truth and I think it's gotta come from him but Curtis Wright was was asked so he would kind of know it but he was. Shut down from well from answering. Excuse me if he had sex DR THERESA CEVERS. He would know it right right but he he was never a right because this trial makes it so confusing to say never asked that yes. He was never ask that how ever listen. This is a preview. For what's coming in the trial is that Mark. Devers could take the stand. Well Curtis right already. Did okay. And one of the things he talked about. This alleged Hitman is his wedding his wild wedding now you. You've probably heard a lot of crazy like day before or just before the wedding bachelor. Yes I hardy type stories. This next one is the wildest of them. All so curtis right. Who's the alleged Hitman? Best Friend d'appel Ganger of the defendant mark. Cevers has a wedding now he lives in Missouri. Cevers lives in Florida. The wedding is in Missouri and Curtis. Wright is a man not a ton of means. Okay now a lot of money which is fine. But but his best friend seaver because he married. Dr Teresi Levers is flushed with a little bit more cash so anyway mark savers makes the trip to Missouri before the wedding. But Dr Theresa is not there. She stays home probably because she has to make money laundering thing. So so this is the. There's a couple of really crazy stories associated with the wedding so I'm going to begin with the wedding day and then take you back to the night before the wedding afterwards. Okay Okay so the wedding day curtis right needs to go pick up the meat for the guests for the wedding okay so this is definitely not a vegetarian. It's not vegetarian. Who's going to pick up the meat now? He couldn't store it at his own home because there was too much meat. He started somewhere out of meat so we had to go he had to go pick it up and when. I say meet. I mean hot dogs at no. I told you the real need. It's a it's a simple. It's actually nice wedding at a park. It's outside it's very small gathering so it's nice and I'm sure Angela who is getting married to curse was very excited for her wedding day and it should have been should have been the greatest day for life but what happens. He's out now. Aren't Angie Oh absolutely and what happened that day mark savers guest together with Curtiss Wright? Take a listen because curtis right testified about what their conversation was and remember. This is on Curtis writes wedding day. He's about to devote his life to his bride and this is what they talk about. Yeah we talked about some more. This really was the same options. Just brought back up in Kinda lost He told me that really the only option that he had was to die and he said that he needed to have her killed so on your wedding day on your drive to pick up week me. Free wedding this receivers. He wants to have his wife killed yes. He asked me to help him. Not The best wedding gift okay. Soliciting the groom to be to murder your wife. This is so outrageous and I can't yep an. How do you do that to your best friend talking about you? Would it be? Soliciting people to kill people. If you didn't know that they would kill people it's not like it's so I do you see this as a wedding gift saying listen. I'm soliciting you to do this. And you're going to get a lot of money. Consider that my my wedding gift to you now. I think it's an separate so doesn't count as not wedding gift of the insurance proceeds from the murder. Your commit okay but just listen. You need some context here. Okay Curtis right at that point was a convicted felon and computer consultant for the CEVERS. A family medical practice. That's right that's right so the point is mark cevers already had in his mind. If I'm going to do this I need someone like Curtis right to help me. Could you wait till after the honeymoon? Maybe why why are you so stuck on this wedding thing? I think it's outrageous. I think it's outrageous and okay. Don't ask on their wedding day to kill their wives but general rule. I have heard this right. General rule in offended. Why are you I said well? What do you think the relationship is between is weeks? Just wait wait listen. Just perfect example. Perfect example your. It's your wedding day right so I come to the wedding haven. Any congratulations. Okay and then I say hey then wedding my wedding. I'm festival seating seventy six. It was an experiment I did because at that point in my life I was going to a lot of weddings. What I noticed was you. Dj Jong Wedding. I did sort of so what I noticed. After weddings I was going to you get assigned seats. Okay go to this wedding Sharon you interact with just four people or five people for the whole wedding because you're stuck in that seat so I said I don't want that. I want festival seating so no assigned seats at my wedding. I want you to see here as yet in theory on paper it was but you know what happens. Human Nature People dug in. They took off. Their jackets reserved their chairs. It was it was funny but my father made fun of me at the wedding. Doing that. Anyhow okay so this is my point. Just just here. So let's say I go to your wedding. Whatever and we're at the reception was like hey and I'm of course I getting drunk and you're drinking club soda like a loser and so I say to you haven. There's this great TV documentary. I want you to do this with me. What do you think? And you're like? Hey thanks for thinking of me Sema. That's a really nice gesture for you to think of me and give me a job opportunity. Were I will make money. That is the same thing that happened at Curtis writes weddings Stop being so judgmental all can tell you move on what happens at an Italian wedding. We don't have that conversation. You just give me an envelope and you give it to the bride. Who walks around and everybody gives us envelopes all these other people. They register for blenders toes known Italian wedding. You get cash because that's the bride and groom right okay. I I'm marrying an Italian EXAC. Had now let me talk about the night before the wedding. Not My wedding but the Curtis right wedding okay. I beg bag if you would but I know you never would so this and there was a lot of reporting on this and there was a huge document dump and one of the reporters said in the document dump. There was an interview of Angela Right. Okay Angela Right. The new bride of you heard right was asked. Did you ever sleep with Mark Cevers? Okay according to the report from the documents her answer to investigators was. I don't think so. I drank a lot the night before the wedding and they look a lot alike but this gets back to our point that we were just talking about which is the lifestyle which what exactly is going to me. If that question was if that reportings accurate and that question was asked and that's the way it was answered this opens up a whole different perspective on the case because now becomes all about the relationships between all these people and could it be a motivating factor outside of money and insurance. That would cause one person to want to kill another person and when you start talking about emotions and sex. I think you start to get into that area. That is fair game so does Angela. Right needs to testify. I think so I think so type in. The defense is the one that he used to call her. The defense absolute defense ash subpoena and call her because she's going to testify about something like that if she's going to say a statement like that that all of a sudden just a whole different view of what was going on at the wedding and what is going on in terms of the relationships between these consenting adults and here is a bit of a preview in that is the defense has indicated. Perhaps they're going to call curtis right again. Get Him on the stand. And there's I think the thing that this trial is I don't think we know and again I always want the truth and want the jury to hear the truth. I want them to hear as much as possible and I feel like they've got half the story right now about what's really going on amongst all these people and I don't believe you can. You can judge what happened in this case until you get that full picture so it may be incumbent upon the defense to do that at the more. This trial focuses on curtis raid. And then let's say Jimmy. Rogers comes in and testifies or Rogers ex-girlfriend Taylor show maker. She testified at his trial. What if she testifies this is all getting farther and farther away in my opinion from Mark Seaver but I think the but I think? The prosecution has a very streamline case. It's about money. It's about the cell phones and that was all the motivation. We've got these secret. Communications between savers and his best friend in being able to have this whole thing happen but I think from the defense perspective and from the Truth Perspective to fully evaluate the case and evaluate a Hitman. Because anyone who's committed murder and testifies I take all their testimony with a grain of salt. So I want the complete picture and I don't think the jury has the complete picture to pass judgment on whether or not curtis right is telling the truth. Speaking of the jury in most of these trials that we've had on court. Tv Our focus is the defended or the lawyers. Or there's some witness that. Were all enamored with our. We focused on but in this trial. Florida versus Levers. There has been a tremendous focus on the jury. We're GONNA talk about that. And why next in this trial? Florida versus levers. There have been a lot of crazy issues with the jury. I know I know it happens from time to time. It happens Craziest jury I ever dealt with was the Scott Peterson jury but things that have happened here. Very Scott Peterson. During deliberations the foreperson foreman had like a stack of notes. So was like this. Guy's he's going to be the leader. There was a mutiny an actual mutiny. Where they voted him out during deliberations. Because he wasn't cooperating with the rest of the jury so they got rid of the foreperson unbelievable then. The jury there was mark. Garriga's had this Boat that he used as a piece of evidence and the jury got to view it but they didn't just view it. They're like jumping on the boat and see if it would tip over what it was in a parking garage and then finally really Ed and finally there was one more. Jour- got booted during deliberations who did some and this remember. You're going back in time back to the early two thousands. She did some Internet research and I owned up to it so she had to be booted as well. So to jers actually got tossed during deliberations while they were sequestered at the embassy. Suites at the embassy suites. Okay well this. I think the judge in this case is trying to keep order. Keep the case moving. Protect the jury. It really started off very early on in the trial with his reprimanding of the lawyers. Listen to this business. People WanNa be dead horse on each side and I think both sides have made their point if you guys want alienate the jury this between each of you I think the defense made their point that there were several that it was a redacted. Version are truncated version. That was entered in. You said you're going to enter yours N. during your Keeps case in chief which is fine but if you think you made your point with the person and the state yielded state made their point with the six thousand pages they mentioned. WanNa go through this. This is fine but I'll tell you what is my business that we're going to finish his trial on on time. And if that means we stayed at midnight not break my promise to the jury. I'm going to do it because we're GONNA finish this trial on time in a business any indication of how every witness going to be packing dinner. Because we're GONNA START STANLEY ACCU dinner. Well can. I can't tell you the impact. This has number one on the jury working late. They'RE GONNA be tired. It becomes more difficult to try the case. And then who's the last anchor standing everyday court? Tv because we don't leave to the jury leaves. That would be me. I well I'm a little nervous too because I sometimes fill in for you right now. I'm not a night person. I'm not good at night. But here's the good news to sleep. If I GET TIRED SIMA actually lose very close to the studio. I can tell you exactly where she lives. Close by so in a pinch like all right. Vince been on for four and a half hours. Yeah exactly where curlers night. Never you know it's really funny so what I do is i. Don't take my makeup off till after you off there because I always just you know I mean our our listeners know about did you dress up for the Uber. Each go our listeners. Know that you have diabetes. Type one we don't we don't have to go into it again but the point is because of that. You're always running because you're my friend and I appreciated. Yeah something else. I'm thankful for this time of year. Absolutely I know that's what I do. Is I just go home? And I put on my little nightgown but I keep all my mind just in case. I get called in okay. So the judges really. He's trying to move this long. He's Hashtag because Christmas is common and this is what I'm telling you. This is why guys you've got to watch this trial and especially I know closing arguments. You guys do a lot of these mashups at the judge. The judge is so funny his face the way he gets annoyed. It's just so great so please check us out or check out our videos on court. Tv DOT COM. Okay so now. He's trying to move this along and then they're an issue pops up and you were talking about that The Peterson case the note. Taking all right well this popped up. Check it out. I will note for the record when they were leaving. All our alternate one of our alternates was saying or notes on the back to two pages of his pad that substantially thick saying. That notes hadn't been destroyed. I don't know if that's every once in a while you get juror. Who writes on the back end so I guess that might have been missed at another trial or or someone was doodling at it. I will make sure that when it comes back tomorrow that he he can indicate which pages are his and we'll take them out and destroy them whatever they are. What was that? This is insanity. Okay because they are taking books from other trials and giving him to jers in new trials without checking them. I write and instead of just going to the dollar store because you can and spending twelve dollars for a death penalty case to give a brand new notebook to the jurors. They're reusing ones and they're supposed to rip out the pages and destroy 'em so apparently some pages weren't destroyed. What makes us even worse? Is that the trial at the Notre. From yeah is the same case and Jimmy. Rogers was tried for the same murder. So the jury from Jimmy Rogers case wrote notes in their notebook those notebooks were then given to this jury and at least one Juror. Here got notes from the prior jury. I mean it's not like a Sitcom it's insane and it's a twelve dollar. Fix Twelve dollars is all? It takes to fix this problem. Tell me about budgets. Actually I bet it is cheaper because sometimes in the dollar store you get those little notebooks as reporter. Notebooks like fifty cents. You buy in bulk. This is insane. Wait but then it's not over. It's not over this happened. Next gotta ask all of you to do me a favor and I've been a judge almost thirteen years and I had something unusual happened yesterday. We obviously we use all our paths with our jury panels so we save money and we rip out the notes and shredded them. Apparently someone took it upon themselves in a previous jury trial to right on the last two pages even though was a full pad and left some notes in there with one of our jurors so I would ask G. Each look through your pad and make sure there's no other notes and if there are don't read them and let me now so then someone else found nodes right another juror people. Another juror had notes from a from a jury that was hearing the same case but a different defendant a different trial same case every time. I look at the judges face Judge Kyle. I am worried. He's GONNA stroke out he's GonNa vein out and he's going to choke someone he can't handle this anymore. It's too much right. Okay so wait. It's not over with the jury issues. All right something else happened and I think this is something that's happened to a lot of lawyers. Let's listen to this. Let me know that looked like he was struggling to stay. Awake at some point This afternoon I watched him. I don't think he fell asleep but he was struggling laying both sides. Know in case you think I do need be need to make an inquiry in also both sides can keep their eye on him as well if we approach it anytime day. Falling Asleep Juror. Yeah this unfortunately is not one hundred percent uncommon. It can happen but to me. That is more a reflection of the way the cases being tried I completely agree other than the ger instead of talking about so many witnesses Taylor show maker and Angelo right. Bring in Angela. Wright play Taylor show makers interview or bring her in bring in live witnesses instead of all of these cops talking about testimony and they're doing it in such a slow manner they're losing this jury right and things you know. Things have picked up incredibly during different parts of this trial. But you have to have. I think as as the person trying the case you've gotta have the pulse of the of the case and the pulse of the jury to keep their attention. And if you lose one WHO'S FALLING ASLEEP? Yes that's not good. Whatever you're doing is not resonate. When you say Paul's I think rhythm you have to keep the energy up you have to keep a rhythm you have to keep them engaged and this is what. I'm hoping okay so Thanksgiving we're all going to have like lots of Turkey and trip fan and we're going to be very well rested and everyone's going to be ready to go next week. Here's the problem. Here's the problem. What if that Juror has leftover Turkey Turkey and and and he's making Turkey sandwiches and bring them into the jury room in the afternoon. It's going to be rough. It's GONNA be rough. I'm telling you okay. All right we'll see. We'll see them so happy Thanksgiving everyone. We are very thankful for you. We are thankful for you and you know what if you like the podcast you would love court TV itself. If you haven't seen the network we relaunched this spring. I if you have a digital antenna rescan it okay. Take the holiday break to take the rescan because our signals now flying in the air across America almost everywhere. So chances are you have right where everyone and you may not even know it. So that's all I have to say about happy Thanksgiving happy Thanksgiving this. Podcast is a production of court. Tv TO COURT TV DOT COM for more content trials on demand and to find out how to watch court TV in your area.
Does Joe Biden Have a #MeToo Problem?
"This is the political scene a weekly conversation with New Yorker writers and editors about politics. It's Thursday may second. I'm Dorothy Wicken executive editor of the New Yorker last week. Joe Biden announced that he's running for president in twenty twenty. He was the front runner for the nomination before he even made his campaign official, but not every democrat has welcomed his candidacy some think he represents the party of the past not the future a concern that was exacerbated in early April. When seven women accused him of inappropriate physical contact. He is now facing renewed scrutiny for how he handled Anita Hill's testimony in the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings in nineteen ninety one when he was chairman of the Senate Judiciary committee less Thursday shortly before entering the presidential race Biden called hill to express his regret for what she had endured. She was reportedly left deeply on satisfied by his apology from. Eating Biden to issue a stronger response on the few. I am sorry. She was treated the way she was treated. I wish we could have figured out a better way to get this thing done. I did everything in my power to do what I thought was within the rules to be able to stop things. But look take a look at what's happened. When I did when we got past when we got through that godawful experience you've been through. She's one of the reasons why we have the metoo movement. She's one of the reasons why I was able to finish writing bonds. Jane Mayer and Evan Osnos both New Yorker staff writers based in Washington. Join me to discuss Biden's handling of the Thomas hearings, and how the metoo movement is shaping politics. Jane, welcome and Evan to have you both on. Thanks. Great to be Jane. I'm going to start with you in nineteen Ninety-four you enjoy Abramson published a book about the Clarence Thomas confirmation fight and this week. You went back to your nose to write a retrospective piece for New Yorker dot com about the hearings. What did you find? Well. I mean, one of the points. I wanted to make was the reason Anita hill was not accepting. Joe Biden's apology as having been full enough was that he kept referring to himself as having done all he could under the rules and kind of saying passively. Yes, she wasn't treated well. But not saying that it was he himself that he was not taking responsibility himself and. If you go back, and you look at the record, and what I was trying to show was that Biden was chairman of the Senate Judiciary committee, and it was he who set the roles for how she was treated. And so he had a lot to do with what went wrong during those hearings. He certainly wasn't the chief sort of sinner against Anita hill. But he quite bungled the hearings yet he in his attempted by partisanship. He he actually made it possible for this gross display of heavily partisan politics. And you know, the Republicans were out to destroy any hills credibility, and they did. So I mean in some ways the best summary of it came from another Senator Howard Metzenbaum who was sort of an across the old liberal at the time. And he just said, you know, Joe bent over backwards so far to please the Republicans that he enabled them to do what they were going to do. No matter what. Hell or high water? They were going to put Clarence Thomas on the court. And so as we move forward the question of whether this matters anymore. This is really ancient history. Almost as politics coast. It's twenty eight years ago. But I think that the live question that I would bring out of all of it is whether Joe Biden has learned how to sort of see the difference between the old style democratic politics, which was trying to be fair to everyone and the new style politics that's conducted, particularly by the Republican party, which is warfare and they were out to win during those hearings and Biden was out to be fair. And he got slaughtered as a result. Also, it's worth saying that Biden didn't call hill to apologize until the day of his campaign announcement which is a little goal. And but I also want to ask you about sort of how the standards of conduct have changed with the advent of me too. So pulling someone in for a hug on the campaign trail is different from. What say the current occupant of the White House has both of doing too young women. Yeah. I mean, I think there's this huge problem out there right now sort of category creep between the behavior somebody like Harvey Weinstein, which we think of as potentially criminal, and then sort of more garden variety, just invasion of women's space and kind of being to to huggy in Hansie, or whatever which a lot of younger women are sort of speaking out saying they really don't like that and all kinds of touching even friendly touching requires consent. So there's there's a big blur out there in the political world. And you know, the lines are very unclear and Biden was the recipient of some of that criticism for stuff that even his accuser Lucy floors says was not assault was not sexual harassment was just sort of a kind of behavior that made her uncomfortable. Yeah. Evan. You know, it's interesting to see how much things have changed. Just in the past couple of years you profile Biden for the magazine back in twenty fourteen when he was vice president, and there was speculation at the time about whether he would run for president in two thousand sixteen. So you saw up close very close. Actually, you yourself his very sort of schmaltzy political persona. And we as Jan's been alluding to Biden's defenders say the shoulder squeezes, the rubbing of noses are just his style of exuberant connecting with people. I think the New York Times up Ed columnist Michelle Goldberg aptly called it a funky ler Pauline. So what did you see you when you were with out there with Biden? Yeah. It's funny. You know, Biden was famous among other politicians for having what John Kerry described to me of admiringly clearly admiringly as a he was a Biden was very tactile politician is what he said Biden brings people. Linney hugs them. He does this thing, particularly with men worries cups the back of your head. You're not quite sure where it's all headed. And and but that was a big part of his persona, and it fed into this image. And I think what is a deep seeded piece of his political life, which is that he is really. Has this almost desperate appetite for the connect as political operatives with college that moment where you make eye contact with the skeptic in the crowd or you have that experience with somebody on the rope line that they're talking about later in the day that can be an asset or it can be a liability for a long time. It's been one of the things that Joe Biden sort of prides himself on and actually standing next to a Barack Obama. There was there was an logic to it. Because Obama was the cool side of that. He was a little bit reserved. He at the end of the day of campaigning Brock Obama didn't wanna talk to anybody else. He wanted to sit in his room and read, and I remember one of Joe Biden's advisors guide been with him for decades, telling me that at the end of a long day of campaigning, Biden would be so amped up that he would get into his hotel room, and he would watch two movies three movies, and he's still couldn't fall asleep because he was just so kind of wired and so. You know, that creates this very much this two sides of Joe Biden that people are still contending with now. So Jake went back to the Thomas hearings, many, many Democrats were horrified. When in watching the Brett Cavanaugh confirmation hearings last year at the debasement of Christine, Blasi Ford and the weird rage of cavenaugh. And how it all seemed to be the Inida hill spectacle seemed to be reenacted all over again. And that is one of the things that Anita hill said when she spoke to the New York Times on the day of Biden's announcement was that partly what he needs to make an apology for from her standpoint, it's not just to her, but really to many other women and in particular Christine, bloody Ford for having set the stage for the same sort of process to take place again during the cabinet hearings. And in all those intervening years there's been a lot of progress for women, but when it. Comes to confirming supreme court Justice in front of the Senate Judiciary committee. It was as you say almost reenactment. It was the skunk groundhog day feeling. The only thing that the Senate Republicans had come up with make things look a little better was they brought in a woman to ask some of the nastier questions of Christine Blasi Ford. But again, it was a single woman's voice up against a very powerful man whose credibility was being questioned just for having tried to speak up when asked by the Senate to do. So there was also an interesting piece this morning in the Washington Post on the up Ed page by Angela Wright who talked very bluntly about how Thomas played the race card in in those hearings. Really intimidating the white committee members, and she has she put it effectively turning Biden into a prattling ineffectual lump of nothingness. What about Angela writes Angela write that piece in the Washington Post? I would recommend for people to go. Check it out because Angela right is the voice that we did not get to here during the Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings. She was an additional female witness who wanted to testify against Clarence Thomas about her own experience being sexually harassed by him. And Joe Biden who was at the time. The Senate Judiciary committee, chairman got sort of cowed out of calling her the Republicans told him you're Angela right is going to turn out to be Angela wrong. And they said she was mouthy or whatever. I mean, they basically they intimidated him into not calling her. Instead, she was allowed to put a statement into the record. So late that almost nobody saw it. She was spending the hearings in a motel room with her lawyer expecting to be called a never was. And so finally in the Washington Post, you can read what she sounds like. And she. Is a really strong voice. And she says in this column, very interestingly, I don't expect or even want or need any kind of apology from Joe Biden. Yes, he did bungle those confirmation hearings. But she says it's the Republicans who really went after Anita hill who have an awful lot more to answer for and finally in the end, she says, I'll tell you who I do want an apology from Clarence Thomas. And so you get to see what it might have been like if Angela ride testified I interviewed her for the book. And I thought she was a powerful voice who might very well have made the difference if she'd been able to testify, but you know, she's saying, you know, when it comes to Joe Biden. Yes, he he made some mistakes, but this shouldn't be held against him. We need to focus on Trump who so much worse. Yes. And she's pointing out the they're real political dangerous here. And I wonder what you think about whether the. Purchase -ness of the metoo movement is in danger of torpedoing popular politicians. I think of Al Franken who was basically railroaded out of the Senate without being given much of a chance to defend himself at all. Well, I think this is a real issue. A real problem is the due process because what you've got often is sort of trial by internet in these cases. And it was interesting in the case of L Frank, and he was asking for a hearing in front of the some kind of investigation by the Senate ethics committee, and a lot of senators had said they too were thought that would be the fair process for him. But as you say there was this. He was sort of railroaded out. There was a, you know, a kind of growing panic among Democrats that they needed to show that they were more righteous than he was and they kind of threw him under the bus the so the party has to sort of come to terms with how who they're going to go after and how and when and what constitutes a real metoo incident. And what doesn't I mean? Anything? I think that the some people have written and talked about how if the the allegations against apoliticial like fide, and in the case of, you know, having been sort of overly tactile with these women that there's a danger that it can trivialize the me too movement because there is this category creep, and you've you sort of it makes it look like all these cases are minor. When some of these cases are really serious and important. And so there you see some pushback actually from women make up present sqi spoke up and called the allegations against Biden ridiculous. So there's some infighting within the Democratic Party about how to handle this. WNYC studios is supported by Wells Fargo, whose global operations are one hundred percent powered by renewable energy. They've also helped finance more than eight percent of the nation solar and wind energy here. In the nation's capital. Wells Fargo a nonprofit grid alternatives. Recently worked to install solar panels on the roof of the park, Chester apartments. Helping nearly one hundred residents in the affordable housing complex save on energy costs. More at stories dot W, F dot com slash DC. So Evan back to you. I wanna have you talk a little bit about Biden's record. He was a US Senator for thirty six years so longtime, and maybe you could give us a brief overview of his record and congress, and then as Abacha's vice president there was kind of an interesting shift in the public's perception of him. There were years in there before he became vice president where he was seen as a bit of a blowhard, and you know, prone to gaffes and everything else, but then his image changed. So what was going on there? Well, as Jane mentioned, I think one of the things about looking at his handling of Nita hill hearings is about saying, okay? What is the totality of this guy's experience? How do you line up the assets and the liabilities over thirty six years in the Senate and then eight years in the White House? And that's I think clearly what the campaign is certainly be trying to do over the months ahead. He is proud of the fact that he wrote the violence against women. Act which raised the penalties for sex offenses in did expand prosecution domestic violence, that's sort of one of the things that people credit him with having done as a Senator on the liability side of the column. Those voting record puts him on the what is now the wrong side of the nineteen ninety four crime Bill which put a lot of people in jail who it's now believe should not have been there. He voted for repealed glass Steagall, which kind of laid some of the foundation towards the financial crisis. And then he also voted for the Iraq war. But then said later that it was a big mistake. And he became a critic of it while he was in the Senate in the White House. What you see is interesting transformation where he went from being sort of a guy who political aides would roll their eyes at the fact that he would talk too long in meetings. He was undisciplined on the stump as they would say, but then he did things at times that would say to them, and they would say you can't underestimate Joe Biden's political instincts. And there was this one moment in twenty twelve during the reelection campaign when you remember that? Obama had sort of botched his first debate with Mitt Romney come out, you know, couldn't have relaxed way just ended up not looking forceful enough. And so then they had the debate coming up between Biden and Paul Ryan and Biden came out in a kind of slugger mode, and it actually did stem the damage I think as you sit back and look at what he's done over the last half a century in Washington. One of the things that is worth remembering that, he's a pretty durable politician who has these instincts and that makes her him. Well, when he's up against people who have a lot less experience and dealing with his record. A lot of people are saying don't apologize to be voted for the crime Bill at a particular time. That's your record. You'll kill yourself. If you do that. Yeah. I think he's going to have to go piece by piece there's some things which he clearly has to apologize for his handling of Nita hills. Testimony and the hearings it was wrong. And unless he is able to address it thoroughly people will keep bringing it up. But there are other things like the crime Bill which viewed in the context of now is a subject of criticism. But he's going to have to say, look if you vote for me, you are voting for a half century in American government, you're not voting necessarily for one small issue or another, and it's going to be up to people to decide whether they want that I think part of this is that it's impossible to separate how people view Joe Biden from how they've you Donald Trump and Donald Trump is known for never apologizing. Never knowledge in any failure, any fault any error, and people are desperate for a bit of self reflection of bit of honesty bit of sincerity about the fact that nobody makes perfect decisions. And if Joe Biden can figure out how to navigate that. It's probably to his advantage to do. So I think part of it also is that Joe Biden it's six needs to show that he's not stuck in. In the past. So it's important for him to show these learned, and that he's very much in the moment, and has a modern sense of what's going on in the world. And it's interesting some of his just his rhetoric feels old, you know, there used to be a basic bargain in this country that when you work hard able to show share in the prosperity or work helped create. So there's nothing wrong with that at all that's worthy and admirable. But is that the way people are talking these days and thinking about dealing with a minimum wage and income inequality and all the rest of it. Well, I think what's interesting is you hear him striking this very strong economic note. Right. And if you go back to looked at the interviews that I had with him five years ago. What was fascinating was Hugh starting to talk about income inequality, then he was kind of gently criticizing his own party for not doing enough on the middle class for not talking about the absence of opportunity, and he ended up obviously not running for president in that race. And. So I think for him he feels as if he's been talking about this stuff for a long time. And he's picking up the baton now it happens to arrive at a moment when there is this big American conversation about capitalism and what it's delivering and what's not delivering. So some of the language might sound a little bit, musty. But on the other hand people may be actually open to the idea of him saying, let's restore some of the equilibrium or at least some of the process by which the gains of business were delivered onto workers to at least a greater extent than they are. Now, his strong support from the firefighters union, for instance, and and his very pro labor statements, obviously resonate elilott with a lot of democratic voters and seem to be worrying Trump Trump seemed so discomfited by the fact that Biden gut the endorsement of the firefighters union he tweeted something like sixty times in one morning trying to attack Biden. Claim that the firefighters really loved him more despite the endorsement, you could see it it truly got under his skin. Jane, I want to ask you about a story that broke in the times this morning about hunter Biden, Joe Biden son who had served on the board of a company owned by Ukrainian oligarch, and which seems to pose a problem of potential conflict of interest for his father. Could you explain that for a bit complicated? It is a complicated story. But I think if you step away what you're looking at is an effort already to try to to get opposition research done by the right to throw it against Biden, much the ways the same kind of position research was thrown against Hillary Clinton. In fact, in this case, Peter Schweitzer who was the author of book called Clinton cash during the twenty sixteen campaign is now the author of another book that's full of dirt about various democratic candidates. Especially though, I'm sure there's some. Publican's he throws in there too. But, but that's where this Biden allegation comes out of partly which is an effort to try to make it look like hundred Biden's business dealings are a big corrupt problem for his father. It's only the beginning. I think you know there. There are other issues I've seen bubbling up on the right? There is an an effort to sort of tar a hunter Biden for business in China and other things so I mean, it's a can of worms that the Republicans just can't wait to open despite the party's own Ukrainian problems. Yeah. You think that that maybe there'd be a little bit of embarrassment? Among the Trump camp in trying to make corruption issue. But hey, it's a shameless business. You know, I think one of the things Joe Biden is going to run on the idea that he is clean that. He is not that he is return to a kind of politics, we associated with the Obama White House that was not racked by allegations of corruption and the Republicans are going to try to him on that that's one of the reasons why you're hearing about this now from the person responsible for the Clinton cash book. And I think this will also be questioned for the media about how people respond when up research begins to come into the race are people going to vetted are they going to evaluate it. Or are they going to report on the existence of it and have that be considered enough? But yeah, I think putting it in the context of what corruption looks like in this White House is probably part of the task. Okay. Thank you both to be continued. Thanks. Thanks much. So fun to be with you. Jane Mayer is the New Yorkers chief Washington correspondent and the co author of strange Justice the selling of Clarence Thomas. Evan Osnos is New Yorker staff writer and the author of age of emission chasing fortune truth and faith in the new China. This has been the political scene. You can subscribe to this and other New Yorker podcasts by searching for the New Yorker and your podcast app and find more political analysis and commentary on New Yorker dot com. Feel free to rate and review the political scene on apple podcasts. Our theme music is by Russell Gillespie. This program is produced by Alex Barron for New Yorker dot com with systems from Kylie Warner. I'm Dorothy wiccan.
140: Psychedelic Conversations and the Frogman's Lazy River
"Oh so I didn't switch them. Okay the oil. Oh welcome to our first episode. Real episode sowed in October Spooky hooky season Spooky hooky seasons bucky October nope this. What does it say? It's the great pumpkin sweatshirt that I got from odd cloth. That's a great pumpkin is coming. It's my favorite fall sweatshirt you. I learned today about Linus. What's that I think so yes? His last name is Van Pelt. Well that's cute. Why on Earth Did you learn that today? It's noon. Where did you learn this on Wikipedia? I don't know how I God. We spend our time very wisely speaking of things I found online while I didn't find online but I gathered I I just wanted. I just wanted to tell everyone I want everyone to be involved as Christina's and my personal life no great and runaway guys run for the hills before trust me. She lay knows better so she's he's telling you I wanted to announce to everyone my top ten that I sent Oh God here we go so it was three. Am I got bored so I decided I was going to create my top ten celebrity list mhm of all the women I would gladly marry so here it is Chris already heard it but I would like to say Christine's number three on on here. Yeah that sounds about right. He's actually eleven early. Shit most made it. I'm working hard to reach that list. I do want your opinion though 'cause i. I like your take my opinion. You might have changed them here we go. I just want people to know what's going on in my heart. Obviously I'm in love with Brie Larson Awesome. We know so. We know that this is a no particular order by the way the next one is Reese Witherspoon share good answer who I've loved since I was six years old so that's nothing new part of her little book club Lovett Racial McAdams I believe is timeless. She's like one of the most beautiful people on in the world she can do no wrong is gorgeous. Gal Gadot the Elizabeth Olsen who plays scarlet witch Cher. She's pretty great great Jennifer Aniston and other timeless Babe God Amelia Clark. Oh yeah that's a good one Emma Watson always timeless and then these is two hundred and making it on the list that night although they are interchangeable with a few others so at at three am that night picked Megan Fox and Hayley Atwell who plays Peggy Carter encaptures girlfriend but I also a big fan of Latisha right and Laverne Cox. Are you actually hit ten so okay but I realized what I what all of them have in common common what because they're all they all look different ways but I like figure it out like what okay so. Here's the here's the Combo here's secret recipe to my winning my love they all have a great draw a line important they all have the trifecta combo of good eyebrows can pull off darker lipstick and have the ability to smolder smoldering they have the the hourglass waist to hip ratio and they're all the they all play characters that are confident women. Okay good so I've hit and maybe not one of those I maybe had some decent eyebrows and high school so that's about as far as I got as far as I'm never gonNA make it on that list and that joint forget about soon listen when I was younger people used to make fun of my jaw line and say I looked like the guy from afi because because it's so pronounced like I always have had kind of an aggressive July and people look apparently that's what I want. I am telling you all right so that's one more check on Melissa right there you go. You're look this up there to Meghan Fox now. Finally you've ever wanted. I listen I I. I can't even count the number of guys that like I've either had crushes on her dated who are just obsessed with Megan Fox affiliate. That's the most like our generation high school boy thing ever. I know I know I've all I have always tried to live up to Megan Fox and guess what you know what I am doing a free radio show in a sweatshirt with no bronze so I think I've made a pretty far and you have at least one thing in common with Meghan Fox. which is your sometimes confident fighting right now? This is the peak of my confidence anyway. I only wanted to share that because I've been sharing with everybody I think you're the one of the first people texted and then you'll special now. It was three. Am and you didn't respond for some reason so he kept sending it to everyone so I just thought everyone else should be won't really happy for you. Let me know if you end up finding your top ten list. I'm sure people would want to hear that yeah. I actually started thinking about it when you sent me that so I'm GonNa work like refine it. Do you have a main person really it's been feeling it's changed a lot any to like really think about it. Well obviously it's listen. It's your waist to hip ratio. It just control myself listen. I play a character of confidence. I well that's for sure I also wanted to ask Ed before we get started that so we posted our listener upset on Youtube and I had made I was very proud of my like Halloween logo them yeah and I sent it to my brother like before the video posted and he was like why does it say so. I'm not like what do you mean and he's like that. Pumpkin makes it look like an oh instead of and that's why we drink and I was like Oh shit and so then I was like well. Maybe it'll be funny I don't know and so I posted it with the caveat in the description region that Dan is that how you say I thought it was thought to mistakes and I'm sorry Laureano thought I thought it was okay. Whatever listen I don't know but everyone keeps commenting about it and like I know I put it in the show description? I'm sorry we're GONNA pretend they did it on purpose to be funny if you don't that word is go look at urban dictionary because I'm not here to explain it to you. I'm too old almost thirty. Leave me alone so so I'm sorry but I'm not changing it because it took me way too long to figure out how to do photoshop so that's that I mean look. I've always wanted to be associated with thoughts in the title of my the promise it's not okay well. Obviously I don't know anything. I love this podcast forethought. That's hysterical. I don't even know what they are so I'm not endorsing whatever this is on Google or anything going on your life mm-hmm yeah share well a couple of things. I wanted to let you know that something really magical happened in a game. I play called start already valley. I've been blessed with a second child and my wife and I I mean her name's emily. I don't get it in your head. Please emily and I she has blue hair. It's a whole thing and she has a parrot but anyway so emily I got married and we adopted a child. Our first child was named his third after my void chicken and cow and then I just was blessed the second child filed and it said Christine Sweetie or ecksteen sorry that's my name and in the game exte- Sweetie what would you like to name our second child and I thought the name child m junior and so now little junior and I have our bonding that's actually precious and you're you're this cute little boy and use the true run around the house. Really fascinated scares me so I have to leave the house and exactly how it used to be too so and my mom have something to text about and so I just wanted to let you know I named my second born after you so precious. I did not see that doing this now so that in a few years I don't actually have the name much that hurts never mind it went from precious to just downright mad. I'm just kidding but here's the thing I used I used to. I don't understand this game at all. Christina Neva both players and I hear them talk about the no strike like acid trip experiences in like oh well grandpa cramp came to visit me in the diamond cave and I was like what happened. What tales are you telling under? A Bridge was a bashing some Sushi me. It's his favorite food. I think we're GONNA get married off the only story I've been able to retain somehow as eva walked up to a different. This is me saying without understanding the concept that sounds to me that once you your character in the game is like destined for one other person and the only way to like look the soul mate no the year they're so Mehta's to throw food at them and so at one point even found her soulmate in Mcginn named Sebastian and she walked around with a giant plate of Spaghetti and then threw it at Sebastian now. They're like like Matt. What's the thing in twilight rely connected bonded? I don't remember it sounds like it's that kind of game. Well apparently Christine bonded with some girl named Emily with Blue Hair. She had a parrot jerod. I couldn't help myself but even I did learn that you can divorce people in the game and so i WanNa really recreate your childhood and I'm going to divorce your mother. Oh Okay uh-huh sure. Let's do it during Sebastian into the picture that would be actually very akin to my trying very hard would be somehow I don't. I know how the drama sounds the parents days. I don't think the parents can get rid of that. Emily but we'll who knows custody is a tricky thing but because I don't understand this game at all by you naming a character after me I now almost like obligated to actually learn what this I think the fun if you don't though it's more fun for me. Just let me know and I start throwing Spaghetti people around they throw spaghetti on me. I want to know who I'm Bonnie. Yeah I will say this if you're like most people on the planet including Amu- like what are they talking about skip skip skip a game on the switch that a lot of recommended on twitter and I've even both become coming deeply obsessed to the point where I'll be on it like to and it's like Eva has joined and his online and I'm like thank God it's so it's a very fun game. I don't have a switch and I I'm not really like a like a into video games at all and so the two of them really bad when we were traveling they would just have I'm telling you the most psychedelic the conversations and ever heard and Ida sit in a Goddamn car with them. You really having fever dreams on fever tree like what are you talking about anyway. So that's your lost. You're not alone because I too am lost that the update we're all lost. I am I will say I'm very honored that something is named after me in your life so thank you you're welcome now. I've got a name something after you. That's awkward. No okay sorry. We just had a little jump cut here. I don't know because I had to ask him if this was like appropriate conversation tation I don't know but I did want ad in addition to. I probably shouldn't say this before my star do valley. UPDATES would've voted well if we said the sad I the sad thing right but unfortunately this weekend past weekend. My my own passed away in Austria and it was very I I don't know we're recording late because of this and I apologize to 'em and Eva for editing but it was just a rough weekend and I took it a lot harder than I thought because we knew she was sick for a long time and she's been sick for fourteen years with Alzheimer's and dementia that sucks and alike. We've known for a very long time. This was coming the for whatever reason on Saturday it was like the honestly I think the reason it hit me so hard is I was this. I don't even know how to wrap my brain around this but I was fine all morning and Blazin plays of the day off so we were like running around doing stuff hanging out. I did some laundry through the London a and then all of a sudden I got like so overwhelmed with like full panic and I was like blaze. I need to leave the house so we went for a walk with the dogs and like on the walk. I started like hyperventilating ventilating and blazes like what's going on and I was like I don't know I think I'm having like I mean I have panic disorder but I haven't had a real like text but not like a real panic attack can years and so I was like years maybe as an executive in like minutes maybe minutes and so I had this like house like I can't breathe like my check check. My heart is racing. I was like I'm going to die of a heart. Attack Blazers like you're fine. You're fine like we'll get you home and so we got home. I was like okay. I don't know what's going on. I think I'm having a real meltdown. Loan loan like what's going on and lay down in bed and just had this like I mean full blown. Meltdown like connection like blaze was like Oh dear God like he's seen me at my worst mostly on my best but also at my words. I wish I can't wait for the day right. See that my best. It's never going to happen when you're most mediocre would suffice you. Look at this job. I didn't you be happy and there's the confidence draws it out of me but I had this like meltdown down. It was like six o'clock and I just I like started like I mean like dry. Heaving full blown panic in places like what's like everything's fine everything's fine and sounds like it's not he's like what do you mean and I was like my grandma died and he's like Wendy. He's like no no. Everything's fine like just lay down. He looked at me and he was like here. You go so this is love you probably Lacroix clock and after a few minutes I finally like settle down and I was like whoa sorry. I fell and I kept saying I'm not here like I'm just like I have also. You're learning a lot about me. I have like dissociate of problems and so I was I was like out of my body and I was like I'm not here like I feel like I'm in a well and he was like Jesus this Christ like he was getting really freaked out quite a foul trip. It was deep well. I just like felt like I got sucked into like it's I it doesn't matter but I was freaking freaking out and so finally I calmed down house. God sorry I'm like I'm back on sorry. I don't know what happened and he was just laying with me and then like twenty minutes later I got a text for my uncle. That was like okay. Uh I just want to let everyone know that like grandma just passed away about like half an hour ago three. Am and then I googled it and it was like six Oh five pm our our time and I was like and I looked at blaze and he was like I told you and he was like how'd you I was like I don't know I just knew and it was really weird because I was like I didn't think it was going to be like that. You know it was it was a happy thing away 'cause like she was really not in a good place and everything but it was just so weirdly I dunno oh no. I felt like I felt like I was here. It was very weird and I think it just scared me a lot and so anyway so my my office away I'm unfortunately unable to make to the funeral general but she was a she was a great lady and she's up with my grandpa now. What's your favorite story about her mom? Actually I called my mom and we were talking about her and it's my dad's mom but my mom back in the ninety s when they first met they she visited Austria to meet her new like my dad's parents and she was so nervous and I went and I bought a bouquet of flowers really dark in here. It's your say something Nice quick look and I know she's like I don't like the story my grandma or my mom shut up with this bouquet of flowers and she's like but it was so cold and like the heater wasn't working that the flowers flowers froze in the car so she showed up with these like frozen flowers and my grandma is like thank you and apparently she my grandmother pretended that they were perfectly fine and like put them in a vase and was like they're so beautiful and they were just like dead and frozen. She's like that's kind of foreshadowing. Maybe for the marriage but sure in any any case yeah so I don't know I didn't know them as well as most my cousins which is also why a little bit weirded out that I like had that weird connection yeah. Do you think she was a spiritual person that it actually actually weirdly in my family run. That's the side of the family where like my aunt always has weird dreams about what everyone's doing and like I often dream like my grandpa comes to meal on. My dreams seems like that whole families just kind of in this weird like dimension where they're like. It's very weird. I don't know and I never felt like I was part of that so you're Darnley showed up and gave me a frigging panic attacks. Thanks well. Your mom gave her frozen anyway. I know that was long. I'm sorry I just wanted to throw it out there. Because I feel like by next week we'll have moved on and I just wanted to give her a little shout and the lights coming back early Cannoli holy anyway. I hope hope are happy and healthy and together all right all right sounds good. Thanks for letting me share that yeah feel like we're GONNA sharing circle. I love of a good sharing surpassed the talking stick to you frozen flat bouquet. I love more than a frozen bouquet. Hiring hiring can be a challenge as Cody co-founder Gretchen hubner discovered Gretchen needed to hire a game artists for her Education Tech Company and she knew it wouldn't be easy to find someone to grow with her team but that's why she went to Ziprecruiter. Ziprecruiter doesn't depend on candidates finding you. It finds them for you. At technology identifies people with the right experience invites invites them to apply to your job so you get qualified candidates fast Gretchen posted her job on Ziprecruiter and she was impressed with how quickly she found qualified applicants she also issues ziprecruiter's screening questions to filter candidates so she could focus on the best ones and that's how Gretchen found a new game artisan less than two weeks so with results like that. It's no wonder her. Four out of five employers who post Ziprecruiter get a quality candidate within the first day Ziprecruiter is effective for businesses of all sizes trust Ziprecruiter for free at our web address ziprecruiter dot com slash drink. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash D. R. I. N. K. ziprecruiter dot com slash drink ziprecruiter ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire guys. I don't know if you've noticed from the amount that we've yelled at you but it is officially fall. It's sweater season and I'm very excited but as we all know updating your wardrobe can be super expensive but honestly it doesn't have to be and that's why I wanNA share with you guys one of my all time favourite sponsors answers threat up so threat up is the world's largest online thrift store where you can buy and sell secondhand women and kids fashion you can shop over thirty five thousand brands like anthropology anthropology and Taylor coach Lululemon and more for up to ninety percent off estimated retail no joke if you're hesitant about secondhand shopping don't worry threat makes it super I easy and fun. Customize your experience by saving your sizes your favorite brands you can also filter by style price color and conditions. You don't have to worry about digging through tons of options to to find what you're looking for and every item is triple inspected by hand to ensure its high quality condition. I actually received this Alexander McQueen bracelet for a super discount and we're constantly. I know you've seen it probably one of the videos but it has these little silver skulls on it. It's adorable and it's something that I probably would never have purchased on my own. If it wasn't a non sale and so it's really cool to be able to shop at that level without having to break the bank so guys never pay full price again for a limited time. Threat Up is offering and that's why we drink listeners a special. I shall deal for an extra thirty percent off your first order. When you go to threat up dot com slash drink that's on top of their already low prices so hurry and take advantage? That's T. H. R. E. D. U. P. Dot com slash drink threat up dot com slash drink for an extra thirty percent off terms apply okay so my story is is one you're going to like Oh. I'm already God it better be. I'm afraid you already looked at the title of it. I do know Oh okay. That's interesting. I usually sneaky on the is no I sometimes they do now. I bore my eyes if I happen to look at your computer I intentionally blur is like a crazy person. 'cause I know otherwise I'll like accidentally. Read it okay. I haven't seen it well. I mentioned mentioned it by accident not by accent it was in my notes so pretty intentionally. Even if they're in our notes most the things we say accidental I mentioned it. It might have been last week story. Sorry I am having a hard time remembering where I place it in my notes but you mentioned that you told me a long time and I had never heard it from loveland the Loveland Frog Person Oh my God oh my God. I'm excited so this is the loveland frogman. The loveland frogman dog man slashed the loveland frogmen. Oh see I don't know anything about it because I remember when we first started the podcast my dad's friend Patrick who they play they play tapes are table tennis together. They started a table tennis club. It's a whole thing but he lives in Loveland and he told my dad like you have to tell Christine or he's like can I have Christina's email address and I have have to speak to her and I was like sure here's her social security number and and so Patrick Hinder wrote to me and said you need to cover this loveland and we were two weeks into the show and I was like I don't even know about this or I don't even do paranormal so anyway finally here patrick kindly here. It's not not too long of a story but it's still good okay so this is an urban legend in Loveland Ohio. ooh has also known sometimes as the Loveland Lizard Okay Fun fact usually usually I feel like with urban legends. Everyone has a story about seeing the creature right but apparently this scripted they only really fall back on three different reports or three different sightings so the first really yeah so the first time that the loveland frogmen were seen was a nineteen fifty five also the year that mcdyess parents fell in love. I mean look at that. I'm not saying I'm can't be a coincidence right. If it was on November Fifth Nineteen Fifty Five Day was bananas. That's I mean listen listen. That's why four a Scorpio it worked out because there was a little talk. Future loves to so nineteen fifty-five this was along the little Miami River. I know you've heard of the little Miami yes it runs through Cincinnati. It blows my mind as someone who didn't never lived anywhere near Ohio. I always think Miami Florida and when I first I met you and you kept telling me that blazoned to Miami. I was like I don't get how you fucking met then in Florida. No I never understood sad. We have say Miami Ohio Oh to be clear that we're not. I never got 'cause you. Yami always tell the story and at some point I just have to pretend like I understand because you were like Oh yeah well. He went to Miami and so we always like obviously you know like well. I'm from I'm from Cincinnati in Miami so we always we you know we were so close and I was like when you were just idiot. No wonder you have all those Delta Sky Miles. I was so confused and eventually I was just like apparently they just really had no problem. I believe the native American tribe and so the name is I hear Ya but yes it is. It is confusing I agree but when I was reading my notes it kept saying little Miami River and I was like occur every size of confusion for the first full year that for all my God. I didn't know that sorry now. It's it's fine very confused. If you are not not from the area Miami is also in Ohio our so along the little Miami River on ninety five and the first story goes that a local businessman saw three frog like men with a leathery skin webbed hands and feet at the side of the road. Okay the businessmen watches them talk to each other and then one of them lifts up a cylindrical metal object is due and holds it like a wand and sparks fly out of it and the businessman runs away like no like my shock said my car asshole so there's different. That's literally the whole first story. Okay the different versions of that story. Some say that it was an unnamed road. Some say it was in the neighborhood called Branch hill some say it was on a bridge. It probably was unabridged. That seems to be most of the story lines. There are so many bridges near the river. That's impossible one so the entire story is agai somewhere seeing it's very vague and you don't even know the name of the guy date. All you know is it's nineteen fifty five okay so there's already a lot of plot holes there of not being able to figure on any or corroborated it anyway right a lot so the original story story was that Oh there's these humanoid frogs running around but because of the cylindrical metal object are the wand that immediately started swaying people to suggest suggested the creatures were extraterrestrial so it's a crip did slash alien depending on what part of the store you're focused on okay so the next story or the next sighting was several years later in nineteen seventy two. This one was on March third at one. AM So already a lot more detail the Loveland Police Department headed officer named Ray Schalke who is driving on riverside drive and apparently he saw an unidentified animal run run in front of his car and he stopped his car before hitting it but in his headlights he did see that the creature was four feet tall it was sixty pounds and had leathery skin around around sixty pounds so ray went to the police station and drove he he was like freaked out. He drove back with his friend and his friend was named officer. Mark Matthews he ended up going back to the police station and trying to get one of his friends because apparently after he almost hit the creature with his car the creature moved around the car and then crouched like a dog and then it stood upright climbed over the guardrail while staring at him Oh and then headed towards the river so that was enough to make him want to go to the police station and bring someone back there to look around right in some variations when of the story when they did come back to when they came back to the site where he saw this creature the whole area smelled like almonds Alfalfa. Oh whoa whoa specific traffic so I guess that's part of the legend now. If you smell almonds or Alfalfa that means a frogman is near or someone's been poisoned poisoned with cyanide or that it's remember that both pretty awful both are terrible and leave the vicinity. Maybe don't don't stay smell almonds run and run fast so when they went back to the location where Ray Schalke saw this creature they did find scratch marks and scrape marks leading down towards the river where the creature had runoff and now is all that they found from anything but true code have also been from this thing Mark Matthews his friend said quote naturally. I didn't believe leave him but I could somehow from his demeanor that he did see something. It's like that same with John Fratto where they're like. I know this guy like something shook him up yeah. Something's is not right even if it's not I don't know what it is but clearly something to really get right so then two weeks later Mark Matthews actually had his own experience where he saw an unidentified animal dead in the road and so he went to move it to the side of the road to stay away from traffic but as soon as he opened the car door his Carter to get out the door squeaked open the animal freaked out and got up trying to run away because it hurt allowed sound the animal also crouched which like he was a football player allegedly okay and then he tried climbing over the guardrail again but Mark Matthews freaked out and he didn't know what to do. He just knew unidentified animal at freaked out his friend two weeks prior so he shot it. Now I know where this is going but it escaped. Mark assumed that must have died later of the bullet wound or eventually just from the cold weather because this was it was still icy outside. Apparently all these encounters the two from ray and Mark Wright a have much more detail they have exact dates times and Matthews's uses a witness to Ray Schalke so some say that Ray shockey is actually a fake alias for the actual cop who just didn't want to be known owned by the story and they just picked a random name and they're like oh his name's ray shocking so that became the legendary cop that saw him but it's just an anonymous random name that they assigned him okay but but there was I guess there I think it was on skype toyed podcast they tried to do as much research as they couldn't. They did find a Ray Schalke who was quote born in Loveland in nineteen twenty eight and died in Loveland in two thousand fourteen o who served on the Loveland Police Department for Forty Years Beginning in nineteen seventy one the year before for the siting no way so he was a new he would probably probably existed yeah. That's cool okay in one thousand nine hundred nine Mark Mark Matthews actually I guess changed his tune and he explained that he was tired about talking about the frogman and what he actually just saw was an iguana they can go with a better story than an Iguana so both in Ohio in the frozen temperatures number okay and so both men did confirm originally that they saw an upright humanoid lizard that they even both had sketches made a sightings and they were both giant frogmen and they were bipedal leathery skin so now you're just saying in our Guana. It's like that thing where people won't leave you alone so you're like I don't even I wish I'd never said and that's what the the Internet thinks up. I said he's he's backing away from it now because we think I bet that's what I thought I'm always going to be on the side of the story yeah so in two thousand one during an email interview Mark Matthews actually spoke even more openly about this was two years after he said it was just an Iguana and he explained that the incident was quote habitually blown out of proportion also said it was an is no monster it was not leathery three or had wet matted for personal known said that to begin with but okay. I'm beards adding more to this. You're making it weird or exactly. It was not three to five feet tall did not stand erect. The animal I saw was obviously some type of lizard that someone had as a pet either got too large for its aquarium or escape bax in or they simply got tired of it. It was less some three feet in length ran across the road was probably blinded by my headlights. It presented no aggressive action so just making up a I don't know if he's making it up and he's telling the whole all of the story okay which is also really sad like someone just dumped their pet. I don't like that yeah. It doesn't make it better. It makes a difference and got shot like I don't like that yeah exactly okay so people assume he's was either freaked out by the creature or just tired of being like a spectacle so he's just changing a story but he could also he told me truth. There's really no proof user one way or the other in two thousand sixteen he like stood his ground again and he contacted w CPO he we reached out to them because apparently they ran a story about him got about the loveland frogman and he said the creature again did not Walk Walk Upright. It walked on all fours. There's he was quoted saying it's a big hoax. There's a logical explanation for everything he says again that it was probably just an escaped pet that was living by a nearby factory tourist this like for tomorrow because it was still cold outside but in that same year on August third in two thousand sixteen the era pokemon go to teenagers Sam Jacobson his girlfriend. We're playing POKEMON. Go between mid Darrow road and Lira deer road rene crew up there you go oh history is happening Shis Madera road and Lake Isabella. Oh my God sorry that's where we'd go on Mother's Day every well apparently Sam Jacobs and his girlfriend were playing poker Mongo and that area and that's when they saw a giant frog log near the lake that apparently quote stood up and walked on a timeline. Oh sorry that was me mother's Day. It was actually someone like really like reenact. Look through a hard the time in high school okay my skin a little bit leathery. Leave me alone. Dare I mention that I nicknamed you listen. I'm getting a lot of shit about my jaw L. Line of well. I've talked carbon. Frog has a great job on. What are you talking about you? It's not easy being green. It's not tell you what so sam. Jacobs was quoted saying we saw a huge frog near the water actual giant frog. I took a couple pictures and videos because I'd never seen one that big then the stood up and walked hind legs. I swear on my grandmother's grandmother's grave that this is the truth. I'm not sure whether it was a frogman or just a giant frog either way I've never seen anything and it walked on. Its way on at frog like yeah absolutely not okay so there have been a few other reports that aren't really taken seriously but if you really wanted to argue that the frogman is real than these stories usually come into play. one report is right after mark. Matthews had his experience there was a local farmer that reported a large frog lake or lizard like creature her during the same month he said that it's eyes were large and circular. The skin was Pale it greenish grey and its mouth was wide with sharp teeth. ooh Question Real Quick Yeah did we did. They did the purse pokemon. Go Guy ever post the photos anywhere like I think he did. I couldn't find it. It's it's a lot of people suggests. It's a hoax though so okay. I don't know how you're GONNA say oh. I took videos and photos like you better step. I'm sure you can find it online somewhere else. Okay I just I couldn't find okay. I didn't know if we were going to green screen it. No no plug man. I'm sure I'll green footage something they'll be something film at tables Kermit the frog meat dancing do the video of kermit dancing the one that I always I always send you just do me dancing dancing easier to film do a side by side. Oh No so also in one thousand nine hundred eighty five all the way back in the very first year when there was a sighting of the frogman apparently currently there is a story of a woman named Mrs Mrs Johnson who was swimming in the Ohio River in Evansville Indiana big mistake well while swimming there was a creature that attacked her from under the water told you and tried pulling her down by her leg. Oh my God eventually she was able to kick away after a lot of struggle and swam to shore there were contusions in her leg and a green palm print that seemed to sustain her skin for days so for some reason that is the level and frogmen but they're a lot of the arguments are that yeah the little like I think the main connection is the little Miami River drains into the Ohio River and so they think like oh well he can just be swimming around and all the water and just grab you like lazy recovering down right entertaining yeah but basically like there was never any sign that he was aggressive. There's never been any story like that. Before right and Evansville is like two hundred forty miles away from the other sightings they just kind of threw it in. I guess because only a couple of months before there was the the stories began of this loveland frog so I think just kinda got connected that way but it was so distance wise far away and it was the only thing we have of it showing any the aggression so it doesn't really sound right like it's Emo if you will but if there were multiple to remember like they said right if there were multiple maybe maybe they were just spread out with maybe but also the biggest argument is like okay. We run the Ohio River where there's massive catfish snapping. It's not a great place to go swimming and I also quite dirty. A green handprint could just be like a series of bruises from getting attached through so the argument is not dry hand. I ooh God if there's a person down. There is also on us so it's not usually a strong strong argument but if you're trying to find additional arguments it's used allegedly. There's no native American folklore of this creature. I'm pretty sure there is no native the American folklore. I don't want to come off as ignorant though there is an alleged story of a creature like this and I say alleged because there's a lot of talk that that there was never folklore about this until the frog showed up another trying to use Robert rating creating a folklore to like a back story stories of validate yeah. It sounds like there was no story until there was a frogman and then they're like Oh yeah. Will you heard right exactly so the alleged folklore's of a creature named Shana Hawk which apparently means River Demon. Oh well there you go the stories of this creature start start in the seventeenth century when the Shawnee and twice tea tribes worn French settlers about it apparently Shawna Hawk. It's S. H. A. W. U. N. A. H. O. Shawna Hawk apparently is a large bipedal reptile that lives in the little Miami River who is a hairless humanoid frog with dark dark wrinkled slimy bumpy skin so it sounds kind of like on brandit apparently Shawna Hawk threaten the natives until they fought him off and it went into hiding until the natives eventually were moved from the territory. Wow they again. They say it's alleged because it was only referenced after the fact that Frogmen came out so they say uh-huh yeah well they were talking about in the seventeenth century but they also weren't talking about it really until nineteen fifty IC- so apparently they I think this is also skeptical. PODCAST cast they did a lot of research to figure out if they could even find Shawna Hawk and they can't confirm that it actually means river demon. There's no like native words that actually make up the phrase Sean Walk there you go even after trying to translate the word using Shawnee and Elgon languages. It doesn't really fit that could also be totally wrong but I'm going to go with the people who researched it. The most their quota smarter quote is Shawna Hawk is quote likely a false appeal of antiquity or the wisdom of the ancients as well as a possible attaching of SASQUATCH esque to frogman so they're just like appropriating this culture being like look exactly Oh that's fucked so there are no articles or police reports from nine hundred fifty five or earlier or later on online archives but the argument could be that those those reports were just never digitized so they do exist. You just can't find them. Online or Scher also weather reports do suggest that it was probably cold and icy out but the argument then as well if anything anything reptilian was out there during that kind of weather it would have not been able to handle that weather right right because usually frogs and reptiles hibernating and shit right uh-huh frogs hibernate in their they live in like warm moist yeah so it doesn't really make sense like okay if the weather was that bad he was there reptile just hanging out in the middle of the running running around ice skating now. Thanks so if people were to assume that it was this massive reptile. The largest lizard in the region is a broad headed skink but it's so small compared to a yeah. It's like you can hold it yeah. There's also a common wall lizard which was introduced to the region in nineteen fifty so the argument there is it may not be the biggest but it was it was a newer it was a newer species that no one was familiar with in the fifties so maybe they saw it in freaked out but it's also still small. It's still smaller than the largest lizard which was also small right okay interesting so one of the other arguments is just just the one that always works dog mange sure where mange the animal ends up getting hair loss and scabs and it kind of looks looks like it's got like leather skin because of all of its wounds sad so they think it could have been a coyote or could have been a Koi dog which is like a breed between a domestic domestic dog and a coyote because if that had major look even weirder and more unknown her coyotes have that like skeletal yeah and I I can be impacts or they can ride solo and we got a lot of those in. Oh yes all right so it could also if you're really China like stretch it that far they could be lizard people from another planet because allred forgot that was part of this because a lot of people do think that is probably alien only enter that there there somehow extraterrestrials and a lot of UFO abductions a lot of people say they see Lizard men on yeah so it could be that one. Oh wait. Is this what it was where he saw a large frog and we were like oh it might be another planet and all this yeah whatever that story was has in store. They thought that maybe it will gotta gotTa. loveland fraud where that came in okay thank you for that so you forgot the connection so they think could they think it could be a UFO extraterrestrial Israel share that was either researching earth or crash landed on earth or some something along those lines. The stories are more believed moved that this thing actually existed in nineteen fifty five. It just happened to be the perfect year for people to like just agree that these stories are real and not the sightings really happen because because the year before the creature from the Black Lagoon came out oh no way so there's probably a mass conspiracy that sort of happened where they socialized and then people thought they I saw something near the water and and such a thing where you hear about in your like like like what you're talking about bridgewater triangle how it like starts a web of and the person in Evanston Evanston is like Oh yeah so interesting that seems to be the main argument of like just like kind of a mob mentality. Yeah Pretty Weird timing otherwise set a year after that movie came out people are now seeing something yeah it's usually described as an American tall tale like Paul Bunyan and it lasts though it's definitely more of a legend than a corrupted or an alien but it's you know it's still like a big legend in the area. Loveland Ohio actually adopted the Frogman as their mascot. They have a lot of teams James called frogmen. They have marathons like the Frogman Five K. and Shit in two thousand ten there was a movie called the legend of the loveland frogman created created by someone who actually lives in Loveland was Patrick. No Okay just you and your dad might have been in twenty fourteen blue. This is the thing I need to go. Check out immediately immediately and two thousand fourteen a bluegrass musical came out called hot. Damn it's the Loveland frog get out of here which I need to see get out of here and in two thousand nineteen nineteen abandoned Atlanta called old sweater wrote a song called Loveland Frogman old sweater those that's everything I got but I love that I love that story I'd never heard about it until we started the show and then people from Cincinnati really cover the loveland frogman and I was like did don't know what you're talking about. I handled it. Wow Wow okay. There's also a castle in Loveland loveland cast yeah. That got mentioned a lot in the summer. I'd just actively didn't read it good. That sounds about right now figured figured out. I'll bring it up somehow someway in another form. I'll bring it up. Don't worry guys have you heard about these flats that are made out of recycled cycled plastic water bottles you have because they're called Rossi's and can't stop talking about them. Rossi's make stylish shoes out of recycled plastic water bottles that are also crazy easy comfortable and fully machine washable for people who maybe or maybe not army. That's what a lot anyway. Roth these are the perfect everyday shoes for life on the go. They're stylish and comfortable. They go with everything everything from Yoga Pants to dresses and skirts. They're available in an ever changing array of colors prince patterns. They're even available in different styles sneakers loafers points and more as has. I've told you guys a bazillion times. 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WD To start your ritual today that's ten percent off during your first three months of ritual dot com slash at WW D. Okay I guess it's my turn it is so this is a story that I have actually had bookmarked again since the beginning of the show. Oh sometimes I go through my old bookmarks on chrome and I like just click old links that I was like. I don't know why save this and this was one of them and I was like how am I never covered this. Oh Bingo Bingo Bango. This is the story of James Lloyd the Rotherham Shoe rapist ooh bringing things down as usual Wisconsin say we sentence started really happily it did didn't it took a dive. Yeah well needless to say I've now deleted it from my bookmarks so ah computers a little cleaner okay so I figured out how to say Rotherham Rother Ham but it's like in England so you know you say things away. They're not Elza Room Spelled Rotherham rather shoe rapist well. We also that the same apparently that word unfortunately it's just rob the tricky one yeah across all languages okay so this takes place in the Metropolitan Borough of South Yorkshire England for four years in the nineteen eighties a man stalk walk the streets of South Yorkshire Terrorizing Women who were walking home after a night out so this would typically occur in the early hours of the morning a man would lay in wait as women I'm in walked from clubs or bars and when they were alone the man would grab them from behind drag them off the street to secluded areas tie their hands behind their backs with stockings and tights and then gag them also with stockings and God and would then sexually assault them he would take time with the victims because they'd be in a secluded area and so it was just terrorizing these women and then he would leave the wound behind alive but he would take her shoes as with him as well as often their jewelry purses and perfume so this is kind of the Mo was this guy's doing this and taking the women's shoes as with him got it so most of the women were in their teens and early twenties but the victims ages ranged from eighteen to fifty four police tried even at the Tussaud police were on this at the time in the eighties. They used a decoy to try and snare the rapist. They had a woman wandering alone in the streets in high heels hoping that this guy I would jump out and attack did not work they they then spoke to victims to try and create a like a composite sketch of of the attacker and they released to the media but still no hits and then after basically after this whole wave of tax leaving women fear panic suddenly and inexplicably the attacks stopped oh so at the time the crimes were also featured on BBC's Crime Watch and that actually prompted three hundred and fifty fifty names to be called into authorities but whilst several suspects were identified interviewed not one person was apprehended none of them fit none they either had an alibi or just just wasn't the right Guy and eventually the case grew cold especially because the attacks had already stopped it wasn't until years later that the case again can gain some traction and this was in the early two thousands and I've talked about this a lot but like DNA profiling forensic DNA became a thing and so a lot of places this is started opening cold cases and trying to see if they could strike up matches on things that had grown cold since back in the day so they actually produced to list of over forty individuals who could possibly be connected based on the DNA of the seamen left at the crime scene so thank God again that they I saved this DNA back in the day and not even knowing what it would be how would be keeping it and just being like the hopefully maybe you come from this exactly and like preserved it appropriately because a Lotta Times may happen and then it'll be like degraded or won't work anymore so thankfully they had some DNA life so they created a list of forty people who who could possibly somehow be connected to the case and they went knocking on doors basically and like just on the third door that the third house also they went to they met a woman this two thousand one in she had actually heard Deanna had been collected after she was arrested for drunk driving conviction and when her DNA was provided right is to police it struck a match to a person on their forty person list and the DNA was almost an identical match to the long lost rather shoe rapist. A man who happened happen to be this woman's brother so that's not good. She gets arrested just on a whim for drunk driving charge and suddenly any Bingo Bango even though this other guy has never been putting the system because of familial DNA bright to connect them so it's been seventeen years since it's the case that had grown cold and finally police had a name. The guy's name was James Lloyd. He was a local family man from thoenes go. I think it's pronounced pronounced. We'll see if you let me well no way or the other a local family from thoenes go in South Yorkshire and a loving father of a two now. These phrases are actual ones that I pulled from the article so like I'm not putting my spin on this. I'm reading what the media spend was on this God okay loving bother to he was a manager at Dearborn or Dern Valley printers printing firm where he'd worked since the age of fifteen he was regarded as a quote quote pillar of the community they always always always it's like laughable at this point. If you know a pillar of the community being nerve all the police uh-huh just be like I we should check it out. Just check it out. They live next to this guy named Jim. He's a pillar of the community I think he should be arrested Europe pillar of the community just offer up your fingerprints. Now just the save everyone exactly especially if if you're a loving normal neighbor if you're as normal as they come. I'm watching you yeah we are. We don't like it. We don't like it one bit okay so in the Yorkshire Post. He was actually called a paragon of virtue to so obviously not like you calling in that C- proved exactly the opposite okay. Can you change my name and your phone to Paragon of virtue. If you delete the kermit commit thing no never gonNA happen. You can put me as the lead singer and jar jar. People used to print that out really fucking computer lab. I know people listen. I just listen. There's a reason I listen to. AFI does not cause. I looked like the singer okay. Did it up so this guy's sister she is like calling on the has no idea about any of this with her brother so she calls her brother and his like hey. The police are GONNA come. Ask for your DNA like they're saying that you're linked to some sort of crimes from the eighties so she calls him and tells him after he finds is out the police are onto him Lloyd calls his father and says look after my children I have committed a series of offensives twenty years ago then attempts to take his own life by hanging hanging in the garage however the suicide attempt was stopped when his son found him in the garage he came home from school ono yeah talk about traumatic police immediately swoop investigate turns out not only did James Lloyd work at a local printing shop he had also taken on a second job as a taxi driver where he you would roam the streets at night interestingly okay now I sit kind of cover up why he was out of the House late at night and nothing when police found when police searched his home home they found nothing did they at all but then his wife inadvertently tip them off by mentioning how much time he spent at work at the printing firm he ran okay and they're like oh great. We'll go there. Let's go do some digging. Let's go do some digging. Police went straight to his workplace dern valley printers and also found nothing but then an employee I explained yeah he's been a lot of time in his office and he doesn't really like any of the employees going in there and they're like Kay Jackpot got it. A search of his office revealed once again nothing game anymore. They found a trap door even and actually make a building surrounded by people and also like what constitutes a trap door. I'm like north sounds like you're gonNA pull a lever and like Indiana China Jones right a fall through it or something. I don't know like this seems less like a trapdoor and more like a closet full of terrible things Oh. I don't really really no just like a whole under maybe yeah I don't like it. You don't like it either. It's bad it's all bad so they found this quote unquote trap door in the trap door there were hidden bags containing more than one hundred pairs of high heeled shoes as well as stockings and tights that Lloyd had used to tie up his victims. I'm like uh-huh my goodness yeah not a fun chapter so detective Inspector Angela Wright who was actually credited with catching Lloyd and was at the scene when they discovered all this was later quoted as saying. I just remember them bringing these shoes down. It was marvelous. I knew then we finally had our man so they were watching as as detectives literally or police literally just dragged down bags of these shoes from his office like it's just so creepy so some of the shoes looked like they'd been purchased on like Shoe Shoe Fetish websites and had never been worn and she said even like we're so absurd that like a woman probably can even wear them because they were so they were created as like to look at not fair display shoes yes yes yes display them in your trap door but she said many of the shoes he's had obviously been worn and they did belong to someone at one point which was like very unsettling so back in the eighties detective said actually asked the question whether the shoes were taken just to slow the woman down like if that was I say their shoes or to stop her from escaping but now they finally had their answer no l. these were trophies and he was keeping them after he attacked his victims awful basically his undoing according to detective inspector right some of the shoes were indeed identified. NFL by victims as their own shoes from the eighties. Oh my God you imagine that's got chills from that. They would literally look through hundreds of pairs of shoes and say those does remind those reminding. He took those from me. It's really really really my God so when asked about the significant number of shoes recovered detective right said there may be other victims who haven't come forward there probably are so they are searching. They're pulling all these shoes these tights Cetera they also find a document called the perfect victim Kim God it the document detailed rapes identical to those committed by Lloyd and it also described the trusting up which is like the tying up with like like time your limbs behind you and stuff like that and trusting up and raping women in the way Lloyd carried out his attacks but that it was not clear whether Lloyd wrote the document himself or whether he just had it and copied it like it's not clear who wrote the document but clearly described attacks exactly the way he did them. Wow I imagine he wrote it. I don't know why else I mean. They didn't seem to find any copies anywhere else so I don't know why also it exists this but he couldn't confirm for sure that he had written it so interestingly while he was active in the eighties. I said remember the attacks. Just like suddenly stopped opt applicable. You get married Yep exactly I always do always do. Apparently he stopped his crimes when he got married and started a family. At least he's committed Dan wife well never mind exactly that is exactly true. Part of the reason may be explained by a series of videos they found in Lloyd's possessions the video video show him and his wife Pat having sex she was often tied up and appeared to be comatose while Lloyd was extremely interested in Stiletto shoes wearing and were would replace them if one fell off off and the videos also allegedly showed Lloyd using stilettos as part of penetrative sex and obviously this is not wrong in any way because the wife said I was a willing participant okay okay this attack privacy that a okay well they found the videos and they were like Holy Shit and then they talked to her and I know oh about the videos like I thought he was filming them. You said she looked so much. I assumed she was too so that's why didn't press it because they they saw listen. Thank God he's dragging his wife and driving her up. She herself said she consented to all the action the videos she wasn't being drugged. Got It okay like role play play but the point of that story is basically it may explain why his attacks on strangers stopped because he was able to do willingness exactly at home with pat so when he was arrested Loyd told officers. I knew that was coming. I was a bastard twenty years ago so like he had been basically knowing knowing eventually he would get arrested. But how can I act in twenty years so it's like really creepy. It's like it's like killer like he's just sitting in his house for decades and then finally years after the attacks even stop someone just shows up and it's like we finally found you so he basically was like Yep. I did it how well he had an attacked a woman I think seventeen years at this point and he probably would have remained free to this day if either his sister hadn't been arrested on a drunk driving charge or if he hadn't had his undoing of collecting trophies sure collecting because if they hadn't found anything in his house office etc like they wouldn't have been able to pin this on him and uh-huh and this is especially true considering how normal and a pillar of the community the sky was so actually got a bunch of quotes because this seems to be like a very very it's like it seems to be just one of the favorite things for the news to write about like how normal he was like. It's just a classic story like the every day the girl like a common man common guy that hosted barbecues American next door neighbor who really hiding a secret like it's just I one of the best like the favorite spins that newspapers put on these story so I'm going to read some of the clips that I've found to describe how just just how normal this guy was so let's see former neighbors said quote. We can hardly believe it. It doesn't seem real that someone like Jim could do something like that. He was a typical family family man. Just a hardworking bloke Yamagata okay just a hardworking bloke who seem decent. He was a workaholic who sometimes worked thirteen hour days. I'm like that's now he was doing. He had a trap door yeah. Somebody said our child used to play at his house. This has made us feel physically sick. Yeah Oh aw really scary and acquaintance said a lot of people are really upset about it because they liked him and now they just don't know what to think so it's almost feeling like Oh. I never sensed anything off about this person. And how scary is that that like I it makes you wonder by yourself like Oh. I never felt fear around him and I should have who else should yeah. I like that that we don't trust trust your own instincts at that point it's like are you question your own instincts like I never thought anything was wrong. so it's a little unsettling for a lot of people people and his own family we're like utterly shocked by this news. They had no idea about it. When you met his current wife by the time he had met his current wife Pat he had already stopped his crime crime? So there was no way she could have like accidentally saw him sneaking play exactly so he had already stopped and in the years since then he had not done anything to arouse suspicion as far as like getting arrested or anything like that he actually spent so much time at work that he had apparently little time for outside hobbies so like he was either. I work at home so it's wife number thought like what's he doing right right and it makes sense now that he had all this stuff at his office so it's like he didn't need to go anywhere his brother-in-law so his wife's brother John Willis said that pat was under extreme stress. Obviously resolve the situation. She didn't know what the hell to make of it. She it was like this is my husband like I had never had any reason to question him and her brother so his brother in law said quote it has taken everyone everyone completely by surprise. He's such a well respected man that it takes your breath away. I have known him for twenty two years through my sister twenty two years that's like I can't imagine knowing someone for even five five years and having them so I mean how long how long have we know Magin. you know so. It's like especially if your family you live together. It's like the fact that you would just have no idea it must be so traumatizing. Learn this about somebody imagine. If you like found this out about blaze ten years we've been married like one year. You're almost can't fathom twenty years and so he continued to say there was no indication about this guy whatsoever that he had any interest in anything other than being being Mr Boring pipe and slippers pipe and slippers. He didn't even go out for a drink words. Fail me so this guy didn't even have vices that they knew of like they were like. He's so so boring. It's just the everyday guy goes to work. Goes home. Go Watch. TV goes just so blends in with society pipe and slippers in slippers. Oh God so if you know that careful he said if you were to paint a picture of someone who would not commit that sort of crime it would be my brother-in-law Ma that part of his character was like a closed book. He was a workaholic with few outside interests so point being this is how people saw him. This is how shocking this was goes to the community and his own family. It's not even like a neighbor being like oh well like. I never knew it's like his own wife yeah so he was. What's he was arrested? He said I was a bastard. Twenty going knew this would happen. He admitted raping a twenty one year old woman in December of Nineteen eighty-three twenty one year old woman in October nineteen eighty-four for an eighteen year old woman in December nineteen eighty-four an eighteen year old in August nineteen eighty six he also admitted to attempted rapes in February nineteen eighty three and June June two thousand four attempted but denied stealing a pair of black and gold stilettos from a woman in October nineteen eighty two that they address where he draws in yeah he's like I I didn't want those shoes no and he also denied another attempted rape that they had tried depend on him so officially only four victims came forward police. I believe have stated they believe Lloyd may have had as many as one hundred twenty victim. ooh Yeah Wow that's that takes jump yeah yeah wow big jump right so four four were confirmed step forward and he admitted to them and then they said based on the shoes. Not all of them were worn a lot of them were clearly worn by people before four and again he could have purchased those as well sure but just based on what they found. They believe he could have had up to one hundred twenty victims probably not the high but even half of that even even four but it's just very scary so not everyone has come forward. They believe so Lloyd was fifty at the time of his trial. He apparently sobbed dubbed in court as he hurt his sentence. It was life in prison then he was told he would spend fourteen and a half years in jail but his time was later cut to seven years and two hundred sixty three days and he is now out so it didn't last very long. Oh my God several of Lloyd's victims attended the trial and as he was led out of the courtroom by two security purity officers one of his victims shouted rot in Hell Okay Yeah agree because of the shortened jail sentence of about seven years which was handed down in two thousand six he's been out for. I don't know like five six years. Now is his wife so with him. I don't know I couldn't find any I think they'd like really pulled themselves out of she was with him like on during the time of the trial and all the news was coming out she was definitely with him still okay but it's I couldn't find anything about now now that being said Lloyd's arrest and conviction even though he's out now is now hailed as the biggest success using familial profiling well probably not since since golden state killer but one of the biggest at least probably in the UK in fact technique which cost around five thousand euro per search isn't use routinely at this point yet. It's believed that this case directly could influence the use of familial familiar profiling and lead to much more widely implemented. Oh you so they said you know even though this guy got out hopefully the fact that this worked so well. We'll like convince funding for this type of research and hopefully use it on many more cases in the future. I mean we've noticed that even in the US like cases are reopening finally from decades ago and hopefully we're. You're getting closer to catching the Zodiac scientists also expect. DNA technology obviously to advance in the next few years Leicester University academics are working on ways to predict surname so last names from DNA which is really interesting so basically the DNA on the basis that many people sharing the same last name have the same distant heritage genetic similarities so they can try to narrow down like what someone's last name could be based on their demand how this is pretty cool. I I just said it's like ancestry dot com and like using their DNA in a very different way like murder McMurdo harder murder crime. I don't know I don't like it. I don't like it love it but it's great sorry we just it's Spooky Yuki. It is spooky cookie. You'll give you that yeah no. It's very good but it's it's definitely like it's a little crazy and scary technologies able to do that but also I'm terrified every every day of how I'm like. I mean granted. I have never done anything that I know. I am a legal crime but I'm terrified of the technology. That hasn't actually shown up yet not that I'm GonNa get busted for something. You never know. I've already decided in my like paranoid state that I've committed thousands of like bloody. You're admitting on air. They're going to cut that part out and using your trial I today. I can't think of anything but I've already decided. I must be responsible for everything and one day technology is gonNA come in and like I'm GonNa get framed when people get really scared about that. I'm like dude. Everyone is now being. I'm sorry everyone is being tracked like I know when People Oh facebook ignores what I'm saying like what you're saying is probably not that interesting aunt Jane like when my aunt is like Oh. That's a made up name to protect identities because because aunt Jane thinks that literally the government is tracking her every move and I'm like you're a stay at home with a three year old and you just go to quilting on the government is tracking our every move in case they ever need not matter like right. They're not looking at you. They're looking at like a member. You know what I mean. I'm like also the second time travel. Evil exists and cops can go back to exact moments and find out when things happened. Everyone is in trouble emmy criminals. You don't think it already exist exist I do but I'm trying to sound like coherence trial your characters. I'm trying to pretend that I have some competent anyway yeah point being it's pretty cool. I mean it's really great because they are really catching people now and using this for for the betterment of society but it is crazy can hand ten twenty years ago this was absurd to even think that this could be possible and now they're predicting people's last names based on their DNA which is just so fascinating to me. I didn't change my last name so they're not going to catch me a you're connected genetically to burning sheep away. I guess that it doesn't make sense so I change my name and then maybe they won't okay forget it actually changes something totally different and we're both GONNA end up in jail together. Let's just I think we need this from day. One uh-huh and that's why we hope we get out early. We drink toilet wine hooch hooch. Yes that finally I'll get cheated drink with me. That's what it takes. Elsa bring you to jail ever end up locked up for something. I'll I'll drink a fingers crossed. I never do we get there. I'm sorry this is funny so paranoid. You're not curb annals. Thank God I'm listen. We'd be the worst criminal. If we were criminals. You would've figured it out by now. Just trust asked me why I don't even know what Salsas made up. The civil war is about shapes. How on Earth could we cover cover? That kind of you can expect that from us do the enquirer. We'll put out a story about us like being some wild like genius criminals shirt sure and I'll let it happen and we'll let it happen. We'll finally be famous okay. I'm so sorry they were pillars of the community. See that's other. We're not tillerson the community entity so we can be anything we don't blend in blend in okay. Sorry I'm going to get back to this story now dead at it up so they're basically trying to get people's last names there's also research being conducted into identifying racial features stature and I color from DNA to be able to create a better profile of who an attacker might be so this case actually inspired a novel called dead like you by former crime reporter Phil Turner and when he was interviewed he explained cleaned why he wrote the book saying quote many of our worst monsters don't walk around with the words rapist or serial killer tattooed on their foreheads. They were suits and spectacles. They are often successful professionals or businessmen most of them with adoring wives and children in viewed by their friends and neighbors as pillars of their community and I think that it's something interesting to keep in mind mind we always say trust your gut and one hundred percent do that but also you can't necessarily trust everyone. Maybe that's just me being paranoid but there are people hiding monsters hiding in plain sight and they'll Wilson Sheepskin exactly and this is one perfect example of that and that is the story of James Lloyd the Rotherham I'm she rapists and because so many quotes and I didn't WanNa put them all within the texts because it was just a lot I just want to add the sources that I used where the sun near Metro The Guardian BBC Yorkshire Extra Post Telegraph and Rotherham advertiser because there were a lot of quotes in there about pillars of the community and a lot of tabs open. That's that thank you can finally delete that off my frigging bookmarks Lincon well well. That's that's that's that on that story about trap door. It's not a fun one though well. I wish I had a nice anecdote to end this on but I don't believe in new suggestions for like endings I said maybe we read like a listener story but that just adds so much more work. Having you know usually that well prepared we could do though we're not. It's I know it seems like we have our shit together. We don't this green screen is very very very deceiving it. Yeah it is a What should we talk about? I don't know I mean I guess we can just say by just getting I'm sorry list where they can find their new. I don't know how we still don't know how to do this. PODCAST US. If you want to find on social media we are on facebook twitter and Instagram at eighteen. WD podcast we have a website and that's why we drink dot com on where you can find all of our goodies and information and fun stuff go find our goodies you can also find our youtube if you are not currently watching it youtube dot com flash see. Hew Puckett's YouTube dot com slash c slash and that's why we drink. Oh Hello what else is going on. We have an email male and that's why we drink a g mail dot com or you can send in your personal true crime in paranormal listener stories and they will go into the running for potentially being read in our next listeners. We're trying to do doppler pingers this time so we'll see if you have good ones sentiment and we always post our listeners our monthly listeners upset on the first of every month oh ooh I think that's it. That's it guys thank you for listening. hopefully I figured out the audio. Everyone's yelling about the audio listen. It's a lot it's a learning wait told you're trying. Look we told you an episode one on Youtube that this was it was only going to get better and then the next time you to screen and everyone's like well. Where's the audio and I said look I eggers can't be treated as we're going to get there? I woke up to this comment about the audio and I just wrote back. I'm trying and I disclosed the APP so I probably just yelled at someone and and I'm sorry but we're trying done. Everything's GonNa look and sound so much better. Just step by step day by day. That's at least what we tell ourselves before. We go to bed to make ourselves so anyway. Thanks for listening slash watching guys. We are so happy you're here with us
Mr. Robot | Series Finale Recap
"In in this series finale of Mister robot is over but we are just getting started here on post. Show recaps unpacking in packing everything. That's just went down very thankful for Mister Robot. Here thank you very much. Oh Mister robot. Oh and thank you very much Joe Antonio Massaro for being here with me Josh Wigley on this podcast way Josh Wigley. Yeah that's me. That's the real me. Josh royal there is this this whole time. Josh Wigley is the real me and I just feel like showing you all my true self today. I can understand why you would want to mask if your name. We're actually weekly. You might of Runway Wigley. That may be true. It totally depends on how you get your kicks. This is how we get our kicks. Antenna is talking mister robot and the opportunities to to do so our vanishing just as mister robot. The series itself has banished as. You're listening to this. podcast shows over folks search. We'd say time to go home. But there's there's there's much to be said there's much to discuss. There's a lot to to sift through as we're as Antonio and I we're going to give you our I reactions here to this. This two part series finale. From Sam 's Mail starring Rami Malik Front and center with a whole bunch of the greater are expanded extended Mister Robot Universe along for the ride. We walked into this week Antonio wondering is this all in Elliott Ted. Is this some sort of time travel the thing. Is this some kind of parallel universe. Did the machine work. Who is the other one? What is going on here? I think was the primary question and and we walk away with answers today. Some more confusion. I'm sure for some people as well even for you and I expect Antonio there's going to be a lot that you and I are going to puzzle puzzle out in our conversation but this is all just spoiler buffer if you haven't seen the episode yet get Outta here. Go Watch the episode. Don't just come in here to us like Mister Robot robot. You'RE NOT GONNA get a lot out of this if that's the reason why you're listening to this podcast tuned out of Mister Robot android. What happened on the show? None of it's really going to make sense to you so just go watch the the show and then listened to the podcast would be the recommendation. The other thing we would recommend is for you to get your feedback in this is the penultimate mister robot. PODCAST here on post show recaps not the final final part. One of two part series finale. If you will we'll be back in a couple of days taking your feedback answering your questions doing winging longer view of two series. I'm sure Antonio and I are planning on recording that podcast. This coming Thursday one day before I get out of this country we don boroughs style and never looked back but I never looked back. I mean look back in about three weeks. So we've got one last shot at Mister Robot. PODCAST do you get that feedback in robot at post show RECAPS DOT com. You can also tweet at us at pusher recaps twitter account. I'm at Ron Howard. Antonio is at a C Massaro how easy how many hours Tuesay's one R.. Zero Plane Crashes Zero Plane Crash. Thank God oh my goodness anyway. So that's it. That's the preamble. Let's talk about this Antonio and I'm not even. I'm not even sure where to start up then like I think I think for for me the the the thing that we talked about a lot in the in the run-up to this episode is. I'm so confused. So I'm in for the ride Sam 's male just due to me whatever you're about to do and let's just see what that is and now we've seen what it is and I think we probably should just start emotionally right like emotionally. I'm feeling very fulfilled. How are you feeling? I'm feeling very fulfilled. I'm feeling very drained. I'm feeling all of the things I'm feeling every emotion emotion at once In many ways because it is the end of a thing and because it's a thing that we've invested so much time and care into As far as the the emotional ability or I'm sorry the ability of the ending or the story to deliver on the emotions of the story. I think it's a incredible success You chocolate all all up to the way that everything's put together on the show from the performances to the music on down as we always talk about it's just a meticulously perfectly. Well constructed did show in that regard as far as the story goes. It's a lot. It's a lot in the realm of what we have talked about a lot. This season on the show. And I think if if you look at the cyclical nature of the story Beginning with hello friend in ending with Hello Elliott I find that we're that Eliot himself office probably in a better space now. He doesn't have to talk to the friends in his head. He has formed a relationship with his sister. It would be very interesting to see of course When Elliot Wakes wakes up what Elliott knows of everything that's gone on if the Jupiter and beyond the infinite two thousand and one ending means that all that information is downloaded into Elliott. As is he wakes up. Or what level he has had active participation. In all this and I think we should talk about it but I on the whole I find it very fulfilling but again like you. That's because I was in the Just sit back and let's see what happens mode. I wasn't in a heavily invested in one theory mode. I'm sure there are are people who are listening to this right now. Who are heavily invested in a theory or two theories right? Theories are eleven sixteen man right right or tyrel Elliott right right right any of these things that people put a lot of time and effort into I hope those people are emotionally fulfilled as those of us who by the end of the series. Were happy to be in a position to see what the show did. And wanting to see what the theater you know theater with the right personalities as it where there's a big empty theater later with enough room for all of your friends. I'd like to think I hope this would definitely fit in their hope. Those seats would recline so it was it was it was wonderful. I really loved ice. We're talking to me and I have watched the episode several hours ago at the point that you and I are talking right now Antonio. It took me a moment to fully get on board with some of the things that I feel. Today I am fully on board with so so I think it's going to be a little bit of a head scratcher in certain regards tough complicated a lot of the information that we're getting it certainly is series redefining. You know that. That comment went from Sam. 's Mail in the series regular podcast. I did with him at the Hollywood reporter and the subsequent interviews that I did with him about the other one and everything like that. He's stressed it. It is going to make you WANNA watch that again and it is going to redefine the way that the show plays. And it's certainly we already felt that By the end of four seven when when we got when we got all the information about the source of Elliott's trauma and the horrible oh abuse he sustained from his father in his childhood that already recovered so much. But we get here in. The finale certainly does the same thing in terms of when you go back and watch mister robot. You're not going to be able to watch it quite the same way. The Elliott Alderson that. We've been on this journey with this entire time. It's not quite the full picture. The main character of this show he himself is is yet another personality. Developed by Elliott Alderson in order to cope with the stress the world in order to to build a better future for himself in order to to channel some of that rage towards some better world that he himself can live in some Sunday because he loves himself so much this part of himself that want something better for himself. At least. That's that's my understanding of it if we're going to now break it down into into terms if we know that mister robot is the protector and that has been that character's role throughout the journey of Mister robot the series series and his role in Elliott Alderson's life than the Elliott that we have been tracking from the beginning through now is is labeled the mastermind in in this episode that this is a facet of Elliott that basically put the real elliott the more whole whole Elliott the fuller Eliott back in the back of the warehouse. But it's a nice corner of the Warehouse Antonio where you're going to get close to marrying Angela La and you've got a nice apartment. You got a good job. Like things seem pretty nice in that world until you get beaten to death by yourself. That's no good job. Ah but it does seem like that Elliott was the rub that that Elliott that we got to meet at the end of last episode and we got to spend some time with in the beginning of this episode is probably the closest just to the real idealized version and that's like the version that the mastermind has been striving for to to some degree has been fighting for and when push comes shove and it's time to to relinquish that control. He's just having a little bit of a hard time letting go. Not Unlike the audience is relationship with the show. We don't want to say hey. Good bye we don't want to leave. We want more stories in this universe. But we all gotta go and I thought that was such a poignant moment when when Elliot tells us like this only works if you relief to and we all go into the movie theater and we get to re-experience Elliott's life through like you say the big thousand one. Oh mileage which Antonio. I texted this to you when I saw that happened. Literally just like said out loud at my TV man Antonio so good at this that you had called the two thousand one of it all that we really get like the end of two thousand one here at the end of Mister robot is were racing through this light tunnel that turns out to be his. I which I see and of course we end on an IRA Dantonio yes. Of course we ended an eye because of course your big fan anti you know I'm I'm a fan of is a song as they stay in your head and I love them as as a visual Motif in my in my pop culture but I certainly took that to mean that. The real Elliott's waking up. He's a full person now. He's ready to really really recover. He's been through everything that he's been through. Whatever happened happened? I don't know how much into that we WANNA get. We believe on this podcast on this podcast we believe Darlene Alderson. Who tells us that everything that happened on Mister robot happened in the real world? I am not going to challenge that I. You're not going to entertain any notions to the contrary. If you're going to write in with your Gobbledegook theories about how all of this is Elliot said I am going to rage it. them feel free gonNA write them but I shall rage at them and disbelieve them. I will believe that everything that happened on. Mister robot. As it pertains to the to the University of two thousand fifteen we're F- society was developed in order to take down corporate eventually. Today's group and eventually white rose herself and destroyed the machine which clearly didn't really work all of that's real real. All of that absolutely happened wasn't totally. The full story is Elliott himself and I think that that really tracks with the way that the show had played out from the beginning and I I think the Elliott who were not going to get to see what that guy looks like moving forward because the story is over and he doesn't need US anymore. We don't get to have that view of him anymore. I think that's GonNa be a fuller Elliott who remembers all of these experiences in his ready to move on with his life with these people inside of him who've been along with him for this journey. Who have helped him out so much along the way on still being carried forward with him this associative identity disorder has been on show Throughout without without our realization constantly As to the full nature of it right. That's the whole story of season one as we're watching and we're seeing Christian slater and we're meeting him as the leader of society and then we of course by the end of that season realize that Elliott. That's the same guy it's been on display the whole time And we've seen it throughout with Elliot Bringing Magda to life. In what we I think at the time had labelled as visions or memories are now clearly clearly just he's manifesting into his reality This version of this character. This woman Because there is some part of him that feels a type of way away about how he was treated so we find that in the download from Krista similarly we have young Elliott as we have seen throughout the show various manifestations of young Elliott. And we know that that's another part of his personality. It only makes sense that the Elliott that we've seen was not the whole because clearly there are these other parts to him that we have been introduced to throughout the show that we have seen floating around either as active characters are participants like Mister robot or to an extent young Elliott or is more passive passive participants but still very much on show. As in the case of Magda to me. It makes great sense that even in light of that the Elliott that we have would never be the the full Elliott and the other thing to keep in mind of course. Is that just as we talked about in season three with the integration of Mister robot and Elliott and when they come to terms terms with the fact that there's always going to be a little bit of the Elliott that we knew at the time on the show in Mister robot and Mister robot in Elliott There are all these the people are parts of Elliott Alderson they are all parts of the Elliott Alderson. Who Wakes up at the end of this episode? Yes part of him is the masterminding yes part of him. involves mister robot. There's a part of him that that works to protect himself a yes. There's a part of him that reminds himself of the loss. Yes there's a part himself. That reminds him self of The way that he responded to the loss of trust and everything that happened when he was a kid so there are all these parts of him unlike all of us who walk around and as you know containing multitudes in that respect but maybe not manifesting them as separate and distinct parts of our identities he does because does he has a disorder or condition that leads to that so it really only make sense that the Elliott that we've been looking at was never the whole picture. It was never the whole picture. And so in that respect it does not feel on earned or it doesn't feel eleventh-hour to me. It feels like something that we have talked about without really putting putting a name on it and saying like just I clearly believe the Elliott. We're looking at is not the fullest example of Elliott. I think what we all assumed is that the Elliott we were looking at. AH In some way shape or form. He was divided into these parts and he had these altars in his personality in order for him to make progress and get beyond them him he was going to have to come to grips with the incidents that created them the reasons they were there and really come to peace with all of that. It makes sense that part of that process this is going to involve coming to peace with and putting to rest the part of himself. That was so agro so angry I was like you know like the Superhero right you. They were the Cape Crusader. The person who was as a result of the the thing that he experienced the pain that his that he experienced His his his part of him became protective of it. Part of him became self loathing and other part of him wanted to crusade against the pain of the world and he has all of those things in. He's never going to be able to make progress in terms of his ultimate breakthrough of his personality or who he is without coming to terms with all of those aspects. Certainly not going to be able to uh-huh you're certainly not gonna be able to enjoy a different Frappuccino for real right like that guy was never going to be able to actually go and have like an Orange Julius or go go see a marvel movie by feel like integrating all of this stuff. This is this is now. We're going to be left with a person who has a fighting chance at being happy happy and living that life and maybe beginning the process of healing and letting letting go of some of that rage that he just channeled in this universe changing way right but I think you're absolutely right about all of that and universe changing in that part of where why we get to the end of the story and it doesn't feel feel it feels like we walked up to this in the right way to me. It feels like for example the great speech Between he and white rose where Elliott really stands up for Darlene and stands up for others in his life but but especially Darlene in terms of people. Do not let you down. This feels like real growth for the mastermind personality If you want to say the mastermind personality exist in this space where he has a hard time relating to people because he's so focused on some aspects of what's happened in his life or because he's this superhero who feels isolated or who has isolated himself and because his superpower is being the way that he is and that's part of it He he that has changed a lot. Throughout the course of the season from Losing Magda to the moment when Elliot And darlene are listening to that tape in the bank and he's reminded minded of what they were like with a Angela to his moments with. tyrel where Mister Robot is trying to soft pedal Elliott screaming and then it is Elliott. Who comes back to Tyrel L. and really wants to try to form a bond understands the value of why tyrel or what tyrol's commitment to Elliott really met for Elliot and of course the stuff with Christopher avera those people throughout the season we have seen a growth even if this is the mastermind? We're looking at to the point. Where his prime directive and he also finishes his quest quest his prime directive is no more he has grown he has evolved? It only makes sense. Then that what we're going to see is an Elliott who emerges who contains that aspect who contains means the protector. But maybe no longer needs to protecting who no longer has the self loathing represented by Magda and who no longer needs to be reminded that he can fight for himself by little Elliott so it makes sense that he's progressed to this point by the end of the series and I think if you look back on it probably is encapsulated by his choice architecture. The decisions agency makes while playing exit at the end of the last episode by deciding to stay by deciding to to be with his friend and not run away from these things. Maybe maybe he's gotten to this right now where he can process all right and I think like what what you're what you're articulating their and what we've been seeing across the series and what we've certainly been seeing in the final season you know mister robot being a big piece of that Himself but certainly the Magda personality and the Little Elliott Personality That these were parts of Elliott. That were already getting that level of closure That or we're ready for that level of closure to some degree like I think like that whole boardroom. Thing like that's not that's not your seat that's for the other one. The other one was Elliott. The whole time. I mean it's hard to find the right language to talk about this. Because we're tracking different facets if the same person but the other one was the mastermind the other one was the Elliott that we've been following all along and Elliot when when the boy who says for Elliot is the Elliott that we'll never really fully meet because that's the person who doesn't even need us doesn't need to show and this final season was even grooming us to get to a place where we're ready to let go and it was. It was really the mastermind that needed to get to that level of growth. As well you you see the in that scene with white rose where Eliot is talking about how sometimes there are good people out there and it's it's rare but they love you so much that they won't let you hate them. They won't let you hide from them. No matter what you do they will still love you on for the mastermind aspect of Elliot to reach that level of growth. There there was really no chance of survival. I mean like they could rage against the machine for as long as they wanted to. And the finale really is that process right of of of letting go of coming to grips with the fact that like. I'm not needed in the way that I've been needed anymore. I need to go away so that WHO I am. I'm in my entirety. Rather than just this piece of me actually has a chance to to live and to move on so I thought I thought that it was really beautiful. It made it made me think. About what the feature film version of this would have been so like you know what what the architecture of that is it that like. There's like an early early. Act reveal of the Tyler durden type thing with Mister robot. Being Eliot himself and then like the real twist is that like it's not just like mister robot is a piece of him. It's like even the person who were following the Ed Norton type of character if you will that's fabrication to some degree as well. I just I. I think that that would have felt very rushed. And I think that the only way that twist like this really does work is if you've got a long form type of story the way that we got to really experience life life with this man experience it through his lens and I think to a see things like the fact that he could create delusory prison for himself that that he could blink people out of Times Square that he could really see the world however he wanted to see it really makes a reveal like the one we get here at the end. Really hold hold wait for for me. But it's it's heavy and it's a lot to chew on too dense crumb to this bread Antonio Salacious crumb indeed a lot to wrap your to wrap your head around to really find your way to digest asked in process and as I said like for me it took a little while before I started getting to a place of not just being emotionally satisfied and viscerally satisfied which I was immediately absolutely on both of those levels but I think also the logical satisfaction maybe took me a little bit longer and I feel a lot better about that a few hours later so hopefully take the more people contemplate it very curious to see what the big wide reaction is to this finale. I'm you know Antonio that I'm I am a a major loss and I am and I'm very. I'm very concerned with the people who are going to be so it was in his head the entire time like I'm triggered already. I might deeply triggered by that if that is where where people are going to go with this. This show is such bullshit the whole date eight up to how to Darlene. Do anything well early did anything because she was real and all this was real. An Elliott is somebody who's been struggling and now he's getting ready to Serb to struggle with it head on he's real. Everything's real at all happened. There's he's a man with a condition very concerned very concerned that people are going to be like it's purgatory or whatever the hell they're going to say well look we have a lot of fades to white we have we do have the Jupiter and beyond the infinite two thousand and one of it all. We have a lot that goes on here Josh. We have an entire coney island boardwalk full of many Christian slater's saying Hey Kiddo weirdest thing. It was so weird Malkovich Malkovich. Malkovich was horrifying. That was horrifying some John Malkovich. Yeah it was. It was very upsetting I was I wonder if maybe the most upsetting thing that has ever happened on television let alone mister robot. Surely as a twin peaks man you could cite four or five more. It was a small army of Christian slater's getting with that. Little tiny Christian slater was so upsetting onward Christian slater marching to war. Chris deadly Christian slater later finest work of his career in this episode. You have to say just by sheer probability right because there's so many different Christian slater's there that one of them must have been having having a career best day maybe the little one who is holding the hand. Yeah listen. There's a lot of stuff in here that I can understand understand why people will theorize and I'm okay with that. To an extent part of why the ending of two thousand one jumps off the page and it was something that I immediately thought thought there was room for in this show in some way shape or form. It's because it's one of the most like outlandish and brave bold like ridiculous endings of of any fictional medium certainly in the last century. So it is it is it. Is I think very much in keeping that mister robot would have room for that that and yet I do think the intent of the show if I might read that is to say bye. Hello Elliott being the the last words of the show as supposed to hello friend being the first words of the series we have finally Had Elliott Prime The Real Elliott wake up. And you say we never got to meet the guy and that that is true. But we've met so many parts of his personality as point. I think what we what I think what you're getting at with the mastermind and how wants wants wants. These quests were going on and we now think about the the fight in the parking lot at the hotel with mister robot and Elliott and him basically. Mr Robot's saying it's always going to be something. Like how long is this going to go on because remember Mister robot at that point really wanted to get to the point where he could show Elliot what he did. And in that case case what what what that means is he could show the mastermind that he put that he took control that he was the one who was driving at that point in that it was not Elliott who is driving in Elliott. Hasn't been driving for awhile. He's been quote asleep. He's been dormant and it was the other aspects of his personality. Who are worried about losing that in part because that's their host? That's fine if you lose that in. The inmates truly take over the asylum that I don't know where that leaves the inmates in that regard and I think that it makes sense that the other personalities who is your observing were ready to move on and needed him the mastermind to get to that point and so I think we're both saying the mastermind getting to that point was certainly a product of Elliott's individual growth As the mastermind. Something that he really could not ignore when the mastermind is created to take advantage of that anger to take advantage of that rage to be a sort of super human and then their reasons for that anger and rage become a lot more nuanced announced there dissipated he learns for example. Some of the reasons for any kind of personality or identity divided all in episode seven. He gets gets to appoint as the mastermind where he's got way too much INFO and too much knowledge and new wants to continue to progress. But I think the real powerful thing for me Es in the second time and we're in the boardroom. This season When Mister robot points out that Darlene actually was able to connect with the original Elliott right at some point when she mentioned Fernando Veira That darlene is the key when Elliot wakes up for the first time. In this episode. He is still the mastermind and he has those those moments with Darlene where he really processes that and he admits to her look. I'm not really actually. All there is to Eliot. I'm just part of him. And Darlene says like I I know that was Iraq so good unreal Carly Chacon was remarkable theorists she series best performance from Carlisle taken in the scene. And and really I mean you you think about what the show at its core is and it it is such an Elliott centric. Show into so much about what goes on in his head. But but the show manages throughout with Darlene and others but especially Darlene to do a really fantastic job of showing what it's like to live with someone in love unconditionally. Finally when they're in a position where they have some kind of condition that puts them sometimes at odds with you or that makes them makes you feel like they don't love you or that. They hate that they love you or that they treat you like absolute garbage. Her unconditional love is such a key element of this series. And obviously that's not all there is to Darlene. Carly chicken has brought so much to the performance in terms of her own problems her own struggles but it is her unconditional love of her brother that the mastermind your mind ultimately cannot process as being in a world where both of those things exist. He cannot exist in a world where she has just broken him down to the point that he he realizes that. The Elliott prime will never be happy without this relationship in his life. entered is not for the mastermind to maintain this relationship because he existed for a different purpose. So it makes sense that this is the moment where he decides that it's time to let go of the controls and move on. Darlene is such a key element in his evolution. Russian the masterminds evolution that. It makes sense that he would no longer continue to be in control that that part of Elliott the part that wanted to. Let's say make these drawings. I wanted to do more things in the world and be a superhero. He acted on that he did it. Now that it's done he can progress and put a lot of these things to bed. They consider the the movie theater and beat always be a part of him but never defined him in the way that they have throughout the course of this series and his definition now will be based on a lot of the things that We saw in the infinite loop. I'm just in a very different way And mainly via his love with his sister and everything that their relationship comes to to the center of of the show show now that that relationship is different than the relationship. He has with Angela and with his parents in the circle. But I think in many ways it's more powerful powerful because it has sustained so much adversity and it is proven to even the mastermind that this is worth it and that there is some room for stuff beyond anger here so I just had a really great way to put a bow on all that and the Elliott and Darlene story and to me it feels really earned at throughout all four seasons the Elliott and Arlene connection. We can talk Josh about the logic of well so who was Mr robot really like antagonizing in season one. He knew that it was the mastermind. He knew it wasn't Eliot so what was his job. Job there as a protector or not a particular. We should right right but I think the Elliott Darlene connection it really sustains and make sense throughout and it comes comes to a very very natural point as a result of everything that's happened throughout the series and certainly this season. Well I mean if the mastermind is in control of Elliot from the beginning being of the show and Mister robot starts manifesting because the masterminds plan now is to lead F society and to lead this campaign against E. Corp Urban Institute the Hack and everything like that then he's now in control of Elliott's agency and Mister robot of his entire personality is designed to be the protector of Eliot but the mastermind is the one in control. Then Mr robots best chance of control of protecting Elliott is to like play ball to some extent with this new guy who's just showed up and basically to show them the ropes of like. Well this is how this is how we exist within Elliott. If you're going to be here then like I'm going to protect you because you're you're driving this thing right now and so that helps explain. Sometimes why he's so furious with this aspect of of Elliot Because like you're endangering Elliott. You're making my job harder. Shoot him in the head in season two right right so like I mean like a lot of that makes sense and why he's so emphatic. About wanting to have that chess match with his with the mastermind in season two for control and like trying to get him to realized. Like you need me here. We're not going to be able to do this without one another like you know. You can't just destroy. You can't just delete me. That's not an option anymore than can delete you which would be great because you're not here than maybe we're not raging against the world and maybe we can move on with our lives so it actually does re we color Mister robot a pretty good guy for for most of this but I want I want to say there is obviously nuance to that. Sir I think part of the reason we end the series having progressed in the way that we have is I would say that the mastermind seems to contain more humanity in in a personality type than the other three that we see and I say that by means of noting for example in season even as mister robot isn't dodging the mastermind and even as he's trying to exert control over him or pushing them off of a off of a bencher if you will like doing all these things that maybe don't seem so protective encouraging urging him to blow up steel mountain instead of hack it right like all these things. There's just not as much humanity and Mister robot like this. That mister robot was one of the was the first created and he was created as a protector and he was created in the image of somebody who caused the breach to begin with but he was also created by an emotionally stunted eight-year-old boy not by adult who had had more relationships and who had had come to a position where making the mastermind was probably a more nuanced version in a more nuanced character a more nuanced personality. I don't know everything about the idea but it occurs to me that that that creation of the mastermind occurs so much later therefore I think as we see I think he has a lot more nuance and a lot more humanity in him because he's not created by an eight year old at a time with extreme trauma. So I I do. I think there's you can. You can put both of those things together. You can say yeah Mister Robot. He was also an agent of chaos as much as he was a protector. And I think that that's true but I think think that's in part because he's just not as nuanced of a of a character. I don't think he cares as much about humanity and I think there is that growth in him throughout as pushed by the mastermind. And there's push by what they're going through together. It is mister robot who takes as much of an active role in trying to stop the court building from blowing up when he Eliot Eliot divided and have to work together he does come to a point where he gains that humanity. But it isn't always in him. There's an evolution in that character as well as a reevalution based on what we know about the characters at the end of the series. I do think that there's room for both of those things I think. Mister robot can evolve just like Anyone can evolve. None of this is to speak of the fact by the way that this episode itself just as a as a as a finale as as an emotional new rollercoaster was ridiculous. The first part of this episode be so viciously anxious it's like walking through the Washington township of Elliott's imagination right of his Co. mister robot. It was so it was so great to have that here and to finally drop that. Definitely the right timing on that to the point where like I would not have been on on my Bingo card coming in to the episode. I would have thought that like we were never going to go there. But to get the domer- gotTa Mister Robot though is Super Super Super Fun and and to to the have Elliott confrontation with himself and have to basically kill himself in order to there. There could only be one. You know it's a half Mike. His highlander moment accepted. Cutting off. The head you shove them in a box no question was just. It was so wonderful so this episode like a beaver like I felt very uncomfortable through large swats of it like I felt like it was all going to end very poorly. During large portions ends the episode. I would say that like end of part one. I twenty ish minutes of part two especially Iras really feeling like Oh man smells is just going for like the bleak ending. This is just like going to be like a full bleak a four four on the bidder. None of the sweet and I ended up being very very very happy with the balance of bitter sweet I think a lot sweeter of an ending that a bitter one supposed that depends on your interpretation of what's going to happen next for Eliot Alderson after he wakes up right so Elliott's going to be like fully waked fully woke at this point by the end of the series. Everything that's ever happened has happened. He's alive thank God. But he's alive because he was in the Washington township reactor when the explosion happened in white roses machine was destroyed. Missed Minister Zhang hang is dead. Everybody knows that Minister Minister. Zhang is dead which means that Elliott must have been discovered next to minister. Zhang's dead body. Audie people are going to have questions for Elliot. It's just going straight back to jail like I'm glad that there is no more show that actually hassle like deal with the runway of what Elliott's life like looks like on a practical level after waking up in this finale because ah there's certainly why pessimistic viewpoints the world's GonNa have a lot of questions for this guy and depending on how honest he's feeling these days and you hope that he's he's feeling fairly honest they might not like the answer's right and it may not be defensible to say. Oh I don't know that was one of my many personalities did that like that becomes the trial of the century at that point So it's a little hard to stomach or believe that. It's at least doable. And yet I think that the the nature of the events are there it is it is ultimately thing where we we look at the hospital and Darlene. He's not in handcuffs. I don't think right that we can see so. That's not happening. We're in a position. Where the the news is there? You're right he's been found next to the body he had been wanted Without really without clarity and so head Darlene for the Yuletide Escape and everything that happened there and if we want to trace that back to the ultimate attack I mean. There's a possibility although small. There's a possibility that this hospital moment. And everything being found next to the body and all of it leads to the unwinding of everything that happened with the e Corp Wallet Money Day Distribution Right because hey spring trace them back right in fact yeah or or just go on to the legal defense all right yeah there is at least that possibility It doesn't seem as as directly likely but remember remember they were. They were photographed by traffic cameras. And they were wanted as a result of this hack and they can probably trace that incursion to maybe connecting getting to national bag rivers and all of it so hard about it. Elliott's going to jail. Maybe maybe his defense. We'll be like hey what happened. Yeah plead insanity definitely pleaded speaking of Edward Norton. Yeah that's why it's good to think about it too hard the you know. I think it's just as we're doing. Our initial stuff here will be able to go a lot deeper. I'm I'm sure with with the help of everybody's feedback in in our in our next podcast. But I think we should. We should try and survey the landscape as best as we can right now on and one of the things coming in to the episode was is this Elliott Ted or did he. Did the machine work white roses universe real and as far as the episode informs the episode very decisively lands on the side of. This is all in your head. This is not an alternate world that your existing in that white rose created gated. So with that being said are you satisfied with the white rose piece that what we got from white rose and white roses journey across the show is that she fervently believed in this machines capabilities of creating a parallel universe she dies the machine explodes and we as a viewer. Never get to see whether or not the machine was successful whether or not she was able to generate this parallel universe on. Do you take that as Gospel. That white white rose was bat. Shit crazy do you take it as well. I guess we'll never know it's certainly possible. That white rose was right and she is thriving thing in some sort of parallel universe. Or do you take it for a third option. If there are other options let me know as it just doesn't really matter. It's not Elliott's journey. I think it's probably somewhere in the mix of one and three. I think what you're talking about and I think what white rose talked about. Seems very theoretically possible possible even in our world those sorts of things getting out when they when they slam these particles together is understanding the very nature of physics in a way that they can't or having previously they want to build a very large one in much larger than the current one so that they can get them to higher speeds for that reason so that they can get to these points and it seems like what white it rose did because of her own loss and suffering is that she became fervently addicted to and committed to this pursuit in a way that goes beyond like goes from scientists mad scientist right like so. I think that's how I read it. That's the person who deletes herself in a racist herself Because she's confident that this will ultimately come back in that she's been put in this position by Elliott where she doesn't really have an out anymore on there are no railways to to get past where she's at so she has to get Eliot to a point where she can break Elliott That said the part that I'm struggling with with the right. The white rose stuff is not that she ultimately ended herself or the that he came at the time that it came. I don't make sense to me I wanNA know. On what level did what Elliott experience agreeance or or was what Elliott experienced. What she showed Angela? She says that right before she shoots herself in the head. Like I'm GonNa show you what I showed. Angela Wright was all she showed Angela adjust game of exit. And it made Angelo realize that your choices can't affect the outcomes like did Angela also pressed buttons. Did she press them quicker. Kerr did that cause Angela to realize what control she could have over universe changing type stuff. I mean. I don't know what it was that she showed Angela that she was so anxious. Anxious to show. Elliott am yeah. I mean what what was it like. Really what was it honestly no hallucinogenic. Well none of that seems to be. Why Elliott Experience Variance Angela branch? She got some spiked Kool aid or something because that wasn't what she showed to Elliott Right. Didn't come into play. Yeah right right right right so I do think like. I don't WanNa be here on the on the eve of the finale like pooh-poohing Mister robot at all. Because I'm really I. I really am so impressed with what was achieved here really left. This final episode was so emotionally satisfying and the more I think about it the more I do like it for the for the great scope of Elliott's Oh yes journey but then if I do if I do take a moment to Jack to sit here and really allow myself to to get lost in the land of Eka Delia. None of that hold for me still like you know the the the everything that goes on with Angela and whatever. She was able to see that convinced her. That white roses stuff was going to work like the best answer that I am able to come up with for that. Is that Angeles very sad person. WHO's a bit mold able and is maybe a little gullible and is just a believer in wants to believe in something thing and she got shown something and she got suckered and you just leave it there? But I think if you're really looking for something really static and specific doc. I just don't see it still so if there's like a piece of Mister robot that leaves me wanting maybe it's something that firms that up a little bit better for me but but I don't think ultimately need it. It's just that's one piece of the show. Yeah why rose was clearly bats like clearly insane and I think you have to read all those actions against that backdrop otherwise. I think you're really missing the opportunity to understand that what you're dealing with here was not a rational person The the Megalomania was so strong in that one and to the point where it was like the the Meglomaniac of megalomaniacs like the top of off the top. You take the dais group and this is the person in charge of it like so. This is not a person who had an necessarily normal thought process throughout and she herself self had suffered a lot of pain and did have reason to feel very unwelcomed in the world in which she live so she had every desire to try to fix those things and I don't think that those there's two things are are leaked. I don't think that any dysphoric or any of that sort of stuff that may have been present with white rose had anything to do with her. Megalomania who a mania I think it was a year you a unique situation That she was in From her evolution the desire for power the feeling that pursuit pursuit of power is what ultimately you're doubling down. You're throwing good money after bad when your pursuit of power has put you in a position where the people that you love have. I've been hurt or in fact are no longer in your life. Then you double down and you say well. I'm just going to become the most powerful person at one I'm going to do with my power is find a way to get them back back And so this is not a normal thinking person. It is truly a a megalomaniac and so it. We're looking for rationality in the irrational national in some respects to say oh but wasn't there a specific thing that she showed Angela that she didn't show Elliott. But I I bring it up because I feel like there may be some a little bit of new onset. I missing with this in that. Is it possible that what she showed. Angela was a simulation. Like if you don't press these keys. And because they taught Angela how to play the game before before anything else they go through that big rigmarole of. Where's the key? The key is in my hand. Like Elliott knew how to play games like that but Angela didn't so I do. I wonder if part of Angela's experience involved getting teaching her out to do these things and even though it wasn't necessarily the same game with Landovica. Delia I wonder if the next act of that was white. Rose basically being like okay. Now's your chance you had to stop. You've got to change reality. The reality is it's about the meltdown. You're you're going to have to do that. I don't know if that's satisfying for me. But I agree with you ultimately as we've articulated on this podcast that Angela was very easily moldable bowl from the jump. Part of how Elliot reacted of course to everything. That happened in his past was to disassociate and to have the problems that he had a part of how Angela reacted to the loss of her mother and everything that went on when she was a child it seemed to be that she was was jumping around a lot and so for example sample by the end of season one within the course of like two episodes. She's unequal PR team. And she's taking the Terry Kobe who she's hated and had all these problems within listen to them and taking the job offer and then of course she bounces around throughout. She's the one who's able to know sell seeing Cisco in season two episode seven when he walks up and you know sometimes that summed up in its referenced here with her having bad taste in men which is I think a really kind of trite and maybe not great way to sum. I'm up what we know about this character but I think she was a little bit of a lost soul and I think that the fact that she was a little bit of a lost soul made it very easy for her to jump from power to power and plays to a place and really feel the need to feel significant And feel important and I think that could be easily molded and it certainly was by white rose and I I need to point out that even by the end of her life she was she was back to the point where she knew she had been played and she knew she'd been convinced so whatever white rose shoulder wasn't that persuasive ultimately That she was still buying it. She knew she'd been conned and we saw with Philo price in the season. Talk about what a con artist white rose was and how white rose almost most had him believing that Angela was still alive and so we know why that might have an impact on these people but ultimately. I don't know what it was. That White Rosset she was gonNA in a show Elliott. That was what she showed Angela. I didn't see it. I don't think what she showed. Angela was that she could kill herself. And come back. Maybe there is some greater interpretation. Josh Josh of this show that we're missing here in that people will find. I know you're getting a little bit triggered as we approach the the possibilities of that but maybe maybe that this example sample like that. We don't know what it is. That white rose showed Angela that she supposedly showed Elliott. Maybe that example is a jump off point for people to theorize about there being some deeper meaning to the show That were what we're missing. We're not looking at what's above us. We're only seeing what's in front of us. So maybe that is. Maybe maybe maybe there are other points like that but for me that that's the part where the now that we've seen the finale the especially the first part knowing that the machine didn't do anything thing and knowing that the machine was only theoretical. That's the part for me where I'm like okay. So then what was she really trying to show Elliott. Because I don't think it was the sideways universe. Obviously that that now seems like a thing that Elliot slipped into as a result of the trauma and the shakeup and not as a result of anything white rose intended to do so what was white rose was intending to do and we might have just chalk it up to the fact that she's nuts and the fact that she's not means that her intent really is not going to ever come off appropriately. How how would interpret it anyway so so you may know this? If you're listening to this podcast Antonio knows this about me that I'm a little bit over one year sober over right now. And I'm very proud of this. And it's been awhile since I've really found myself like meaningfully tempted to drink Antonio Davis because I don't know what I would do if I was offered one of. Philip prices. world-famous whiskey sours like I feel like Especially when he'd named drops me over. Just joshing around. I'm like I don't Know Papa Phillip Price. I know that we came into this thinking like we wanted him to rage. Wake up Elliott. None of it's Real Jack. Yeah do you think that he makes his whisky sour with a lot of a lot of questions about that. Obviously I wouldn't drink the thing. I am a strong man but I loved the Phillip Price Seen so much. I think that that's something that like. I know we're going to get really into a lot of the heavy eddie stuff especially in the feedback. Show we're going to dig deeper. But there's just like so many surface details from the finale that I loved reversing the Walkthrough Hill Valley right like in and now and now really getting back to the future on the way that must've felt so great. Must have must have must be pretty pleasurable thing for him to have in existence to go through Washington township at those two different ways in the real world and then in the world inside of Eliot's mind getting to spend some time with Loving mother in Magda I think. Maybe there's some stuff to talk about their. Potentially as far as was Magda as awful as she was was hyped up to be in her mind. We certainly still have to fit that in with Darlene experience of her mother. So that's something that I think is is I'm having a little no bit of trouble. Aligning that the pricing is just so so great to just see him like you should be afraid of me. I'm his father in law it. It's just it's just really really really great and even just sit down between the two Elliott's into CDs these different shades to Eh Alex performance. Maybe I wasn't super sold on like officer. Dom wasn't my favorite character of the Sideways Universe but by and large I really did enjoy Joyce spending time in sideways universe here. I WANNA point out just because we have had some tweets about it and because people may be discussing this or thinking about it in their brain not everyone in the sideways. Universe was dead Lloyd and Ali featured heavily last week. They are not deceased as far as we know So the lack of Darlene in that universe in the presence of Mrs Mas Mr Alderson Mrs Alderson Phillip Price DP DP. He did not die in a plane crash. This is not why she showed up Tyrel being there these are not things that represent the fact that everyone in this vision is dead. It is not the case. Ali and Lloyd are as far as we know alive and well unfortunately in the case of Ali so this is not what we're dealing with in this sideways universe. That said I do really like like some of the details of it before we get to the horrifying Coney Island Onward Christian slater's army marching as to war. I think what we've got is we've got all white cars. Chris Josh except for a couple in the tyrel lot. Just predominantly white cars. I liked it. It's basically a loop an infinite loop. This is your Alderson loop if you will That Elliot created or that the mastermind may be created in a place to Elliott into so that he could be happy so that he could live this life on an infinite loop and be happy. Get everything he ever wanted in. Even though Darlene is not in the university's got a loving family. His Monster is alive but no longer a monster stor seemingly he's marrying Angela is doing really well professionally. He does not seem to have any of the negative energy. His biggest secret is is that he has a secret creative passion that he doesn't want people to know about that is his deepest darkest thing that he's got partitioned off his hard drive so I like the details tells of the universe agent. Dr Police Officer Dom is fine for me. She's always going to be a law enforcement officer. The thing that I struggle with of course is so if this is a world that was created by The mastermind For for Elliot to be in this loop then. How is for example? Pull the knowledge of Philip prices. Angeles father how is the knowing dom at all. And I just think it's possible that this world adapts modifies over time That is even as the the cars are always white and it's always eleven sixteen The the world itself modifies and adapts overtime because the mastermind is gaining knowledge in the world therefore is adapting a little bit with that knowledge. I think that's how I would read it anyway. Yeah I think that that's fair. We're going to have a lot of shots in the next show to to cover anything that we haven't covered here in our initial reactions. But is there. Is there anything from the finale. You Really WanNa get into before we close out this first. Show that we haven't touched on yet. I like I mean when you talk about the Dome Era to Mr Obama. Did all the lyrics that you hear on screen. I've got a secret hiding under my skin. Couldn't be more clear. I feel like that may be the reason why this show is called. Mister robot in the in the grand scheme is like conception of this feature feature film with with the music and like having this moment that you imagine of Mister robot showing up in the moment where you have your hill valley type of sequence and I think that you can really imagine that a lot of the thematic material the material even is derived from the song. Mister robot. Yeah it's it's definitely right there in those lyrics for sure and you. I'm sure there'll be a very good read. A poster may have already minister. Roberto read it post honestly. It wouldn't surprise me if that has happened. Already breaking down the lyrics and comparing to the show but it's it's just so bold to put it right there at the beginning of episode twelve. And have it right out there in front and I really really liked that. I thought it was really cool the way the camera bounced around as Elliot was hacking himself from keys. He's to screen to Elliott's face the mastermind trying to find out what's going on in the Elliott Alderson world that he's in the idea of losing Angela again being doing enough to make him kill the version of himself that was in that world and put the body in quote self storage in the self storage box. So amazing yeah me too self yes. He murdered himself and put it himself in self storage. I just thought that was really good. And you know I I. I also think it's funny by the way that this Elliott can't be in this world for more than like a half day without running afoul of the law and the inning up committing a murder. There's some definite symbolic significance right. The only murder that Elliott Alderson really commits on this show directly as of himself of his alternate ego to try to alter alter ego to try to basically to make sure that he can take the place and be there with Angela. That's the only time he ever resorts to murdering and he does it with his bare hands. It's brutal it's brutal. It's very brutal. I thought the moment win when officer dom is looking at Elliott's license and says you look nothing like him. That was the moment where I was like. Oh great so this is so Elliott SMS mail. That's what we're going to get like that's going to be. That's going to be the big twist and so from that moment forward I was really bracing myself for the Real Elliot. Once we started really getting into that language that we would end the show. Either on Sam's male or a completely sightly different actor and it really would be a saint elsewhere. I'm so glad that's not what we got. I'm so happy that what we got was roundly Malik through well and I'm guessing D- do you read then that the the real Elliott Alderson does not look like rummy. Malik ultimately is that he does but I guess it does. It doesn't ultimately automatically matter. All you see is the I in the but I would assume that. That's Rani Malik. I it's it's worth mentioning. That smell has declined to do oppressed to explain the finale. He mentioned this on the ringer. PODCAST that he was on the watch. PODCAST redid top. Ten shows of the decade with with the guys is at the watch mentioned that he just wants finale to speak for itself. That is what I've been told as well so there's no interview with Sam A.. T. H. or anywhere. As far as I've been told the day will probably come. I'm sure we're going to speak more at length about the finale but as it stands just just hang hanging that stuff tight close to the vest as has are the lead stars of the show so we can't ask them like. Was that Romney Malik. In that in that final shot or the penultimate shot rather because karwi shaken the one who gets to guide us out which I loved. I would assume that that is Romney. Alex I would be sad to find out that it's not to not give him that final moment of emotion and and focus so I expect that it is but I suppose we don't know for sure but since we don't know for sure I will just choose to lift my life believing that is Elliott as well I think it makes sense that the mastermind and the Elliott that we're seeing here do look like Romney Malik around me Malik than the Elliott that we haven't really met since that's the guy who was put into this loop probably more resembles that that perfect life version one of Elliot and I think this is ultimately what he looks like. This is this is who we is. So the the line from Domino's a little odd could be shoutout to Sopranos Kevin Finnerty. Ah Issues there the ID is not really been That's something that I'm that I'm didn't follow through totally on a why Elliott's wallet was missing thing. I guess it's because the the other Elliott took it. I don't know like I so all these things like it's there for him to take but it doesn't look like him. I don't really know what we're dealing with in terms. Look there doesn't really change any of the calculus for me. It's just an interesting thing. Another interesting thing we had. We had a version of a song from the pilot Played in this episode That was ultimately the Jacques Brel version of Niigata In the in the pilot it was if you go away that version that was playing but it's the same song named Cottie not make it not great at Spanish. Sorry French name. AKC PA literally means. Don't leave me and if you go away if you go away so there are those great parallels there. Don't leave me as playing. I believe that was l.. P. From run the jewels rules. Who was had his hand cart taken another rapper? Cameo I'm I will stake my run. The fandom unbelieving amazed that was l. p. in the scene scene there. I'm looking forward to our TJ four. Hopefully it will drop very soon here but I think that was a that was him. He's a big mister robot. Fan Constantly tweeting about the show so so that would be. I really hope in my heart of hearts that they were able to get together. And that's who that was. What about the final title car? Josh of the entire series. It's Elliott's it's body in a box. So great robot final title. I is Elliott's bloodied head. Dead Body in a box after all the artistic beautiful title card Like we'll we'll stand the test of time on the show you'll be able to watch a youtube clip and you probably already can of like every mister robot titled Card the last well. That's dead Elliott. It's and then you oppose that against the one that kicks off the finale which is Dome Ourika robotic starting to sail right into the into the audio radio landscape the Sahn escape the show and it's so fun contrast the contrast that against this very grim grizzly image of a dead Elliott that has been killed by Elliott and. I think that those two things are like these tonal polls that really represent why. This finale was so great it was really scary. It was it was exciting. It was unnerve ing. It was confusing. It was a profound. It was joyful. It was sad it brought a lot of for motion closure. It really really did. And it ran the gamut of everything that Mister robot did over the course of its run Edo were still really early in the processing of it and I don't know where I will net out on it in the end and I don't know how important of conversation it is to have now anyway. This idea like where does the mister robot series finale land in the rankings of all series. Now these oh it's alter is this this is. This is Josh Wig lay. Oh Yeah we don't WanNa talk about him. He's very scary. Very scary guy you know you and I have been able to see a few shows through to the finish justified with the leftovers. Recently with watchmen should that be. The end of watchmen. Certainly the the the end of an era of watchmen at the very least here is the end of Mister robot and I. I don't know that I necessarily feel like immediately like the Mister Robot series. Finale is going to hit for me as one of the all time most astounding terrific series finale of all time but I think I think that what it what it does do for me is it just. It puts puts a point on this thing that is just so satisfying satisfying. I think if if the show had ended with conflict with four zero nine with the destruction of day use group DINU. Do you know I almost. What about like that would have sufficed us? I think that like we needed to get that. Closure Darlene. I really was happy that we got that closure for dom especially now that they haven't messed with that at all. I think that that's a great ending for that character. And I love what they emotionally do your Darlene and what they emotionally do here with Elliot and I think it's really cool the way that it re colors a lot of the series but I think what the real strength of the two part. Finale is for me more than anything. Like more than the fact that it's a game changer. or Wow this was just such a fabulous two hours of television that have never been rivaled and never will be the again like. It's nothing like that. It's just. The finale was so mister robot it was just so true to this show that and I loved so much in that I that I just I just. I'm so immensely grateful for and for the showed end in a way that is so true true to itself and true to what made it so special that that could be hilarious and terrifying with nothing more than like a change in the music with a with a different camera angle with a with a with a sudden reveal of either something frightening or something spectacularly bizarre that that this bonaly had all of that and assembled all the parts that made this show unique and showcase such delicious delightful way but sometimes unlike a really terrible way that made you feel God why is he killing killing himself. It was just a really special two hours of TV but it was special to me because it was so itself. Does that make sense like for a show. That's about a character who is on this journey of accepting himself off and becoming his best self and finding a way to get over it get over is a cynical way of putting it but finding finding some way to like acclimate the horrible things that have happened to him into his life and to come to some measure of peace. I think for a show that is about such a fractured person to be so consistently itself itself. All the way through to the finish line is really masterful quality. So that's really what I'm most impressed by more than I'm impressed by the episode sewed it self if that makes sense to you it makes perfect sense to me because there are plenty of shows who by the end of their run. They don't really know who they are. Or they've lost lost. The plot or there is not a consistent plot and by plot. I mean theme. I mean design. I mean production I just all of what is encapsulated. In show sometimes get gets lost when shows go on for too long or they get to a point where they have breached too many times they have gone through a false endings or they have changed changed the nature of the show. Such that there isn't necessarily a great way to do a final episode that encapsulates all of what is powerful or good about the show. I'm the best ones are able to do that but I think that might be. Why the best ones don't run for ten fifteen seasons I? It's much harder to do a finale that speaks to the power that you're speaking of that this show did When you've got to go on so this is a show that knew it wanted to end? It knew it needed to end. It knew it was going to end It ended because they found the end of the story. Same as mail has said throughout that of course this was probably only a four or five season. Show when you look down at the you know how many the episodes they've done and the lengths of the episodes and the number of Season's shorter longer etc.. I think they knew exactly where the story was going where where it needed to go And they found it and they ended up there in a way that I think spoke to you. Viewing what what a different version of of the world would have been like What a show without the darkness in it would have would have been like where these characters were What are we might have been striving for what wasn't attainable ultimately for various reasons to see it in that way and have it be presented? As as you're talking about right like heavy presented as anxiety. Inducing have it be presented. A scary have ever be presented as funny having presented as so emotional all of those things at the same time and if that isn't mister robot I don't know what is so for them them to be able to do that In that way It spoke I think very directly to the DNA of the show. I love of course The two thousand and one moment where you see essentially all of those moments in everything being present Elliott that these are things that happened just because they happen to the mastermind just because they happen to mister robot. It doesn't mean they're not present. Those are parts of Elliott and so uh speeding through those with the light at the end of the tunnel and Elliott emerging from. I'm that in US pulling out of his eye with a single tier coming down. I think that's a really powerful having Darlene B.. The last thing we see on screen really really powerful again I it really. This show is so Senate for me in terms of a person's struggle with a mental and emotional issues. But it really just I think the Darlene aspect aspect as I as I said earlier of what it's like to live with a person like that in your life and you coming from your own position of maybe not the strongest. You know you maybe also have an empty emotional energy tank but it is. Maybe you feel the duty to continue to support and provide that really resonates with me personally and so for for them to to to frame the show in that way Without really even pushing it over and and really just having that subtly be such a key part of this final season I think really was was powerful and so it made sense. The finale would end in this way with Darlene. Such a key element of it and with Elliot really coming to grips with in order to move on in his life. He needed to move away from tilting at windmills in his anger and the frustration that he had felt throughout as the mastermind that is not Elliott that just one part of Elliott as we've known throughout and it is made clear to us in this episode. But that's just one part of Elliot that Elliot it to be hall needs to be the sum of his parts and he needs to be greater than the sum of those parts and Darlene helps them. Do that really great way to end for sure. Catharsis Assis- right very cathartic two hours of television. Is the the fancy word. I'll use to describe the series finale if Mr Rosa Yeah there there was definitely the the just the emotional releases throughout Getting back to the boardwalk getting back to the arcade and for people that were really excited sighted about the opium dream. Glad to see that. There's some degree of relevance for that Certainly that doesn't mean that all of it is significant or impactful. But I I appreciate appreciate that. People who have invested a lot in that and that it's tied back in a way that makes sense that Elliott slipped into that world when he was going through his morphine withdraw and that he is there for experienced this on some level the mastermind has yet. That's all good for me like I'm glad that we've got everything that we got. I'm not exactly exactly sure Josh was tyrel trying to drag him to hell. Yes that was the blue light that he had seen earlier in the series. The cold too cold Cold Day in hell. Apparently we heard the hell hound scream and we saw pull them into an open grave not unlike ebeneezer scrooge. Yeah so it makes sense it would wake up and maybe the first thing he's going to do now that he's awoken with Arlene his order the finest Christmas goose. Yes I think. So what day is it. It's one hundred sixteen. Yes exactly the last thing I wanted to ask you about is what did you think about the decision to have a post credits scene with a plane crash. Did you think that was over the top Antonio Antonio a post credits scene make it a plane crash stock. Of course there was no post credits scene and I guess that makes sense right like there is no more report watch. Yeah it's over it's over a post credits. It's over. And I. I hope that there is never a sequel. I hope that there is nothing else. I think it is perfect the way that it is a luck. You'll love the phrase as to stick the landing. Mister robot is officially unstuck in time but the but the landing was stuck in struck as well as bars. Snow crash turned no crash. But I'm curious to get the take from the listeners. I'm sure that there will be people out there who are unsatisfied. With the finale. I would love to know why by the people who loved the now. You want to hear from you as well theories that you've got from the finale as long as you're not gonna come at me and say that none of it was real entertain it seriously. I'll even entertain some of that stuff. I'M NOT I won't go full scrooge here I will just judge you slightly harshly moving forward but we wanted wanted. All of your takes work for our next show our final show Antonio Unite talking about Mister robot forever and that's about to change So we've got one final show coming your way come into your feed. It's going to depend on your feedback. It'll have some of our evaluations of course as well sending your feedback back. Mr Robot at post show recaps dot com is our email address. You can also tweet us at post show recaps at round Howard at AC Massaro Tuesay's one one are one show left here on the Mister Robot. PODCAST happy holidays for those who are celebrating the myriad holidays that are happening right now now we will be back later in the week. It's going to be plenty of days for you to get that feedback. And we're not recording until December twenty sixth so get us that feedback Antonio Antonio anything else. No one more episode to go of this podcast joshing. That's unless we could convince. Ms Mail to come on here or the actor who played Camogli all right. Well we'll see we'll see what we can do. Maybe that's something. We could do in January when I returned until the feedback show everybody take care on the the hardest. My blood is boiling.