20 Episode results for "American Foundation"

Dr. Christine Moutier, American Foundation for Suicide Prevention

Dr. Drew Podcast

00:00 sec | 1 year ago

Dr. Christine Moutier, American Foundation for Suicide Prevention

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Check them out and click through on the banner support the people that support this pods. We can keep doing it. And keeping the wind in the sales of the pro Kroll of higher the qualifier chip and today, we're gonna talk about suicide important topic and one the probably doesn't get enough attention. It's a complicated process. We're in support of the San Francisco out of the darkness overnight walk. It's June eighth and ninth. This is the fourth time there's been an overnight walk in San Francisco. There was a Boston. They will be in a Boston overnight walk on June twenty second twenty third the third time they've been at an overnight walk in Boston. You can register. After the overnight dot com again overnight walk one night one goal. Stop suicide registered today at the overnight dot org or call eight eight the overnight that's eight eight four three six eight three seven. And I'm going to be speaking today with an expert psychiatrist expert suicide Christine Mucci, you can you can check out the American Foundation for suicide prevention at a f s p dot org. Pristine is the chief medical officer. And I want to welcome Christie Mucci to the program to Jake, welcome. Hi, our pleasure. So suicide is a you know, important topic. It's one that has can catching people's attention. Unfortunately, because we've had them sudden uptick in certain populations may we ought to start with that. Sure. Yeah. The the national rate of suicide in the US has been on the rise pretty steadily since nineteen ninety nine like one to two percent per year. But then over this past year, we saw a slightly larger increase of almost four percent. So in total it's thirty three percent increase and absolutely going in the wrong direction. And actually every demographic group is being affected, you know, in in the in the wrong direction by suicide risk elderly people in the United States. That's the one group that possibly some suicide prevention strategies have made some headway with getting them. More connected socially, offering health services and mental health services. And also just social connection. Thing was that Caucasian male particularly middle aged males. We're getting a lot of tension. There was a marked up tick there that may or may not have been the opioid epidemic. But there was also enough taking adolescent females was there not. Yes. Both are correct. But let me kind of break it down a little bit. So white males account for about seventy five to eighty percent of all suicides in our country each year, and the largest increase absolutely has been in middle aged Americans actually men and women but for white males in the middle years. They have the absolute highest rates these days, unfortunately, among adolescent, girls what we what we do. See is an uptick. However there be line. Suicide rate is so much lower. Of course. Thank goodness that any increase will show a larger percentage rise. So it's, you know, it's sort of different strategies for each sort of demographic groups, but of course, a lot a lot are in common as well. In terms of just taking the stigma out of getting help for any reason, let alone if there's an identified depression. Anxiety PTSD addiction and so forth. The underlying diagnosis slash geology is different and tends to cluster in different age groups in different demographics. And so each has to be dealt with specifically. That's right. And you know, depending on the culture of that region of the country, and that particular age group, you know, so many factors will shape kind of the norms around. What you do if you're depressed suffering becoming hopeless, and whether you've grown up in an environment, which can have to do with your family. It can also have to do with your social connections, and you know, your school environment or your workplace environment. Your church your faith community. You know, those those cultural norms about what's okay to talk about. And if it's, you know, okay. In your social circle to get therapy to go see a psychiatrist so your primary care for that matter. You know, all those things have some different nuances for sure. It is a changing time in terms of people being willing to access treat. My it's better than certainly seen it slowly improving twenty years or so, but I'm gonna go back to the Ellison female from second. Because the other thing about that group. In addition to it having had a unfortunate increase, the means by which they're committing suicide is uncanny. I mean, we've not I'm not seeing that in my career that they're using violent means that way more than they ever have. And that was something reserved primarily for the males. Yes, you're you're right about that that, you know, lethal means our big part of suicide risk. And conversely suicide prevention what some people don't realize is that, you know, they might think that a person who is thinking of suicide or is is losing hope is sort of determined to take their life regardless and that is simply not true sciences showing some things. So clearly, and that's one of the clearest facts that you know, the moment of suicide risk kind of peaks over a pretty short period of time. And if the person can be kept safe during that period of time, or it's the lethal means that they're not that they're identifying is not available for that for that period of time. They generally don't shift to a different plan. But you know, what you're saying also points out the fact that in our American culture in our society, we've. Unfortunately, gone in a different direction in terms of having greater access legal means even even at a younger age and certainly the opioid epidemic is influencing that that level of suicide risk as well. Intervention again talk about that. So what people should be doing and this idea of holding people for three days or however long till the suicide suicide -ality passes. So again, if you put somebody to save environment, they these feelings will pass they not always. But inevitably they get better. And it's our job to keep them safe. While you're having these self destructive feeling, and it's a medical emergency. Like any other? That is absolutely true. And and, you know, some people do have more chronic suicide risk that that's still wax lanes. And some people it is a one or two time thing over the course of their lifetime. And of course, keeping them safe is of most important, but there is a shift actually going on in the suicide prevention field that is moving away from inpatient hospitalization at least as the only option. In fact, it's it's considered that communities and health systems around our country need to build systems that rely more on outpatient services, peer support mobile crisis units things like that that can actually allow the person to stay in their life because as you may know suicide specific risk reducing treatment options have only recently been started to be developed really in the last couple of decades, and so impatient. Tree. Kment certainly plays a role for safety. Absolutely. But but clinicians primary care mental health professionals are are learning that there are many other options to take. In fact, there are new standards of care that don't just automatically hospitalize the person, certainly not if they're just having suicidal thoughts it has to be a much fuller risk assessment with access to something. Yep. And even prior history of attempt family history. Impulsively changes in other other even physical health conditions. Let alone mental health changes sleep, chronic pain. You know, all and and also the shifting things that are going on in our lives at all times. All of that actually has to do with and feeds into a suicide risk assessments to the average person to if they're around someone who is heavy suicidal thoughts. Right. Well, you know, a lot of education now is going on as you probably know with things like mental health first-aid at the American Foundation for suicide prevention, we have a program called talk saves lives that in a thirty sixty minute impersonal program. We actually teach people the basics of what is the science. Tell us that that risk warning signs what constitutes preventive actions. And then we say every person has a role to play in preventing suicide. So it's not just relegated to mental health professionals or even just the health system period. Go that looks like. Yeah. Well, okay. So let's say that I mean, you can think of any any type of relationship, but let's say that you're a parent, and you're worried about a teen child in your home. You know mean that's a very very specific situation and one where I think a lot of us with teenagers pr-. Probably have have felt like, you know, how do we tell the difference between normal teenage angst and win something becomes much more serious in terms of suicide risk. And of course, with the teen rate of suicide going up, we do need to be much more vigilant. But you know, the main thing is to open up a caring conversation where the person is allowed to talk and to talk about what they're actually experiencing inside. So sometimes as parents and whatever role, you know, spouse sibling, co worker friend. It's not we haven't necessarily been trained with active listening skills about how to create that safe space and encourage the person to open up and explain what it is. They're viewing experiencing and they're not going to put it in mental health terms necessarily. They're going to be talking about the the feelings the stressors there under the situation. You know, we live our lives in. It's always pinned to the situation that we're in whether it's work stress or financial. Dress or relationships, but the key thing is really getting them to talk. Listening carefully for indications that again, they're not gonna put it out on a silver platter for you. But if they start talking about feeling overwhelmed trapped or especially like their feeling like a burden on other people. That's one of the great cognitive distortions of the suicidal mind. Is that people actually believe that their loved ones in the world would be better off without them. And again, they're not gonna put it that way necessarily. But you might get little glimpses that that's how they're feeling to that point. That's what I know. You very serious trouble. Yes. Exactly. And you know, so at that point, I think it is fine for people to ask their loved ones does use their language. You're telling me about the stress going on, you know, at school or with that situation with the bully at work, whatever it is. Does it ever get so bad that you think of ending your life? And if they say. Yes. That had I have had that thought. Then again, don't shut it down and call nine one one unless they are in the act of harming themselves. Let them talk probe it further realized that suicidal thoughts are actually fairly common like as in one in five high school students in a twelve month period is having pretty serious suicidal thoughts. Most of them do not go on to act and to attempt but them being able to talk about it may actually help them feel a sense of hope feel that somebody now knows and cares about them. You know, you can of course, if you're the parent, you're going to want to lead them than to mental health professional at least to their pediatrician at that point, depending on the relationship, you can at least encourage them that take the stigma out of seeking help especially from a mental health professional talk about it. If you've had there before things like that. We're doing a pretty good job with Stig. My no one's very concerned about that. But in most particular people, anyway, I think that the celebrities talking about their own therapies and naming their traditions and things I think about a long lot the when I started practicing medicine, it's a lot different now. But there are certain populations. It's still resist resist resist. Yeah. And and you know, there's kind of layers to it as well. I totally agree. And it's it's an amazing thing that like stigma has gone down so much and attitudes have opened up. We did a Harris poll at the American Foundation for suicide prevention found that ninety four percent of Americans feel that mental health is equally or more important in their lives than their physical health. So all these things, but what what I'm seeing is that that doesn't necessarily translate into knowing what to do kind of like, the finer points of mental health literacy, and how to live it out and really kind of walk the walk. Let's talk about the. Well, how do you wanna proceed? My next story instinct is going to the. Conditions associated with suicide. I can't I don't think we can avoid that. Yeah. Go ahead. You start that topic? Sure. Well, we know that they're a number of risk factors that are pretty prominent and sort of the most common ones, the the key. Takeaway with suicide risk is that there isn't any one cause for suicide it you could say that mental health conditions or mental health struggles are sort of a necessary but insufficient risk factor. Because of course, thank goodness there. One in four Americans have a mental health condition, and the vast majority don't die by suicide. Don't even attempt, you know, may never struggle with suicidal thoughts. So there have to be other conditions that come into play. I mean among the mental health condition. Genetics play significant. Absolutely. Oh my goodness. Yes. I mean, there are more. The science is really shining a light on genetics not only for mental health problems. But even for suicides the civically. Yep. And certain medication or even certain conditions there things that can be associated with suicidality. We don't think about as being associated with with that. Well, that's right. I mean, for example, chronic pain, and even just general chronic medical conditions win that when the person begins to suffer, you know, with depression with hopelessness, the heart disease, chronic pain, autoimmune condition, many of the person's mental health down, whether they have, you know, genetic risk for depression or anxiety PTSD or bipolar disorder. This important point is that the suicide -ality people think about suicidality as related to depression. But that is. Just one area for suicide -ality and Ryan, for instance in bipolar. My understanding is bipolar is actually slightly more likely to kill himself in a manic state than in a depressed date number one in the number two, you mentioned, chronic pain and suffering and quotes. And that's something we see a lot in chronic in all kinds of medical conditions. Even people aren't necessarily depressed there. They may not be experienced that as a prominent feature, and they still could be contemplating suicide. Right. Right. Exactly. And you take the mental health piece alongside physical health conditions. You take the genetics that we talked about. And then also think about how people have very different ways of would almost call it like we might think of it as personality, but it's like cognitive traits. Cognitive style. Some people are more black and white thinkers, you know, they tend to go down the path of if this doesn't happen, then it's catastrophic. You know, rather than being a more naturally flexible thinker that will there could be this this or this Aleutian, and there's not one perfect or exactly right way. But I'm gonna get there. Also optimism that's another kind of psychological trait. So those factors all play in as well. And we know is that if a person reaches the point of feeling depressed, but again, it doesn't have to come through a clinical diagnosis of depression that it could actually start with let's say trauma PTSD a head injury chronic medical condition, like we were saying, and and then those depressed, and and hopeless and desperate feelings may follow that. But what happens is for? They're actually temporary changes that occur in the brain. That are not that person's usual way of coping, and I think this answers the question of why some people think, you know, is it cowardly is it selfish. How could they possibly do that? And people aren't realizing that the brain of that suicidal individual is not functioning like they normally think and it's not permanent. So again, if they can be kept safe during that brief period of risk. They will come back to their usual, probably healthier ways of thinking and coping and relating to others. I guess the next question would be if you yourself is starting to have symptoms. What are the, you know, first three or four steps you should take. Right. Well, I think the first thing to keep in mind is if it's happening to ourselves, you know, we've gotta just in a way prepare selves in a different way. Because our our brain is our control center, and when we're the one suffering, even if we're the most knowledgeable, anti stigma kind of person when we're the one in that space. It's a very different place to be. And so we can't sort of rely on our brain in that moment to come up with the best plan. This is what safety plan is all about you create that when you're in your more well state, so that, you know, exactly what you're gonna do is certain warning signs start cropping up, you know, in your life. So I think the number one thing is look into creating a safety plan that something that you can do with therapist or with a mentor usually in a clinical setting, but it's actually being used in in other spaces as well and the faith. Plan is is really kind of one of the new and most validated methods for empowering person who's at risk to come up with their own actions that they can take, you know, besides just clinical treatment, but their own self care options that can actually save their life and can also just Vert crisis and steer them in a more optimal direction. But I mean, I think the basic thing is be wary of that be smart about it know that you will feel ashamed and less able to reach out for help. And kind of have your plan ready to go of who you're gonna call who safe to talk to. And if you've practiced them things like journaling taking walk listening to music. Some people are practicing those things and actually learning to live with something like chronic suicidal thoughts, you know, every day, and they're they learn how to manage that interesting that. Sort of the noting that self efficacy, and advocacy are the things you hear about in reducing stigma to that thing. By taking care of yourself and teaching other people about your illness and planning for your only illness, those things not just increase good outcomes. They decrease stigma overall. Absolutely. I mean, I just have to mention that. There's this whole movement going on around advocacy related to mental health self disclosure as well as suicide prevention, and the people are people who are touched by these issues on all sides of it. So what one thing that's interesting is that a few decades ago in the suicide prevention movement, it was almost all suicide law survivors who were coming out. You know, speaking their their voice and their experience, and and providing insights into this major public health crisis of suicide, but over the last few years people with their own what's called lived experience of suicide attempts or any kind of mental health struggle really are coming to the fore, and you know, we're hosting panels of the voices of people with lived experience on Capitol Hill, and in the White House and all over the place for clinicians and researchers for policymakers, and that's. That's really a game changer. If you think about every other kind of major shifts that happened with an especially with stigmatized health issues, you know, aids HIV even cancer back in the day required that kind of advocacy, and so, you know, one of the thing I want to mention is that we have something that goes on every year that anyone can come out and check check out and kind of join the sort of advocacy movement, or at least just see what's going on. And these are are overnight walks. We also have community out of the darkness walks. But the overnight walk is special and they're actually coming up. One is in San Francisco was in Boston. Third and Boston June eight the night in San Francisco, I alerted the the the audience to that. So great. There's still time to register at the overnight dot org, and that that is an awesome way to if you're just wanna cut a dip, your tone, the water and see what it's all about. And feel the empowerment there's this incredible freedom and and shared bond that you get when you're around people who are willing to come out and really like literally step out of the darkness and into the light about these issues that are so common. They're really I mean, they're just part of the human experience truly these are all words that use a lot and reducing stigma empowerment contact advocacy, self efficacy. And and they just happen to be good things for your mental health. Also. Two. Show your love. Now, what would just graph podcast one? And right now, the former winner of the amazing race is getting all the details of this season by calling up players that get eliminated each week for some juicy. Many interviews. Download new episodes of now, what would just graph every week on apple podcast and podcast one sixty seconds. That is precisely how long this commercial will ask well pretty much, but you know, else you can do in a minute. You get an offer for your car from truecar. That's right at the time it takes to flaws your teeth or just if you sit ups or listen to me, you can get a true cash offer from truecar and you can do it from your smartphone or home. You just go to truecar simply enter your license plate number watch. Out. Your car's details pop-up answer some questions, and you will get an accurate true cash offer from a local truecar certified dealer. It is that easy after that you bring your car in. They'll check it out with you. You got some questions, and there's no surprises. Then you simply just leave at your check if you wind or if you've done your homework. Can have locked in a price using truecar for a vehicle on that truecar certified dealers lot, and you know, that prices fair, you know, it's a real price includes fees and accessories either new or used cars, you can trade in for your car for a new ride. So ready to experience a better way to sell or trade in your car checkout. True car today. All right. Brought up measles on my last podcast. And I just want to just break down a couple of things that we should be reminding everyone, of course, children should get to live attenuated vaccines. If you kids have had those vaccines and they've been available since the nineties, essentially, you're fine prior to that seventies and eighties. You probably ought to have the immunity documented with a blood test. If that's sort of a you talk to your doctor about that. If you were born seventies sixties late fifties. You really must get your immunity documented with a blood test. I personally was born in that fifty seven to sixty three window when we didn't get adequate the kind of XI's really wasn't designed to last a lifespan release. It hasn't turned out that way. So I. Retook the vaccine three days ago, and I may get a second ones on the healthcare provider healthcare providers supposed to get to vaccines. He and any question will get the vaccine, it's harmless. It doesn't hurt obviously pregnant women to be careful people on steroids immune diseases, those things talk to your doctor, no matter what talk to your physician, but we need to be vaccinated because although people can look at these outbreaks that were having recently and say, oh, just five cases. Just twenty cases. It's localized. Yes. An outbreak is defined by a change in the distribution of disease in location, and temporarily mean all of a sudden change in one location over its specified period of time. Could be three cases could be five cases could be five thousand cases. It's the change that we jump on outta democ. It's an outbreak. Measles is so contagious. You literally somewhat means can walk through the produce department of the grocery store, you could walk through a couple of hours later, you will get it. You will get it. If you're not properly immunized by greatest fear is that's gonna get into the homeless popular. Action. If it does this is going to be a massive massive problem and as the viral load in the community rises, even people with partial immunity will not be able to keep off this disease. So discuss your doctor documentary, immunity, it's really not only responsible to you and your family, but you're going to be responsible for the rest of us. Give a responsibility to not just take care of yourself, of course, and your family and protect yourself. But by protecting yourself, you are protecting the community you live in that's part of the responsibility of being a citizen and living in a concentrated environment. We call a city or it civilization. And why we've decided we don't have that responsibility to our fellow citizen is shocking and unconscionable to me so take care of business. Do what you gotta do to protect yourself. Your neighbor your community and to stay healthy. So just by the way, all it's all on the CDC website centers for disease control consult that there's a whole measles section there. And so you can read about what I was saying here about what what you're what can. Gory you're in and whether you should go get your immunity checked or take the vaccine. So we have a call. And also I want to circle back after we take the call because I think we should address veterans as sort of a special topic, if you don't mind. Yup. With that. Sure. Yeah. Okay. So this is Ben Benson Alabama ban. Go ahead. Oh, I always call him in because I've thought it was a big thing for me. I'll had an accident about four years ago. And I was a fool, you know, adult males. It was housing. And then and one not I became a pair of please and re mental Pol that can take on the person, you know, there's a lot of exterior things will marriage is all because I came a pair of placing and the process they go through a traumatic experience having to them a lot of times, they're not very vocal. And they don't know how to come out and say, I'm going to this struggle. But what I was hoping to do is maybe health and some topics way. And I don't know about my subdue that that's what I was telling the gentlemen before is that kinda wanna do my part. I express it people who have like a major injury or something traumatic happens to them. I think. Not not one hundred percent. Correct. What else hold this participate prepare play the exist? How like in the forties or fifties suicide, and I felt like that was too high. So I'll call this is not no. Though apologize. I think aside from a certain Jay has something for you. But once you get a website together and start pumping it on social media C, see who, you know, somebody something you guys will find each other. It's you know, bales. What's that buddy? He's asking me to put my information out. I don't mind I try to offer as many people who are something similar obvious. Kind of just let them know that it does get better. Building community around something like that could be extremely powerful. But Dr J taco head. I totally agree with you, Dr drew, you know, what we're seeing is. And thank you for sharing your story. Tune so sorry about the trauma you've been through that that kind of thing obviously happen to you and happens to so many people, and there is a shared bond when you can find community, even if it's not the exact same type of injury, but at trauma that is life changing like that. And and coming together is is truly empowering it's one of the mazing things about social media. And there's a lot of downside, but the ability to connect, and you know, when you see these these blogs and posts where people are actually rather than turning into haters. They are supporting each other and encouraging other congratulating each other for for taking that step for sharing. I mean, it's a really incredible thing. I I find that community American Foundation for suicide prevention for him. Well, definitely I mean, you can find your local chapter of Athas P, and they would welcome you in and find a way for you to contribute possibly to speak about your experiences. You know to volunteer at a community walk. If you go to FSP dot org. You can find your local chapter, and you can also see a whole bunch of stuff. That's going on is a good chance that we funded research that relates to the type of disability that you're suffering with now physically that has led to your mental health struggles. Check it out. Thanks. I don't wanna get the picture website. But when I would say this on him might be going through a similar issue is online, the anonymity of the internet is kind of something that helped me mop particular situation, then it could help other people the fact that you don't have. Because once you say, I I don't. There's is almost like wearing a scarlet letter having a brand people will begin to PD sometime, and that's not what everybody's won't as so if you're able to just go to a web for more on like I said, I don't want anything, but there's a throwing out. I don't think this is the one that message fairly, but like spinal cord injury sub read it on Reddit this final chord injury that not the place. They have a real good community for no people. I don't think I can handle any more and people just take time out of their own as it. So you know, we're been where he's in it feels like the world is on top of. But it gets better overcome like, it's just, you know, take an alcoholic. I can say. Don't don't put that fear of the future the fair potentially happened sometimes compound, and, you know, become a bigger thing than you actually think is. And that's a good way to come process. It's just reach out for people and the sought so mom, you know, you can be more free. If people don't know, you know, if they're not looking at a Feis kinda use you the liberty of just feeling good with anonymous web when user nine I'm so glad you called. Thank you. Thank you. You have and. There you go. There's a perfect example could be doing, and you mentioned that the advocacy movement used to be people that had, you know, friends family who commits that you had peers it commit suicide is that what I read. Got you in right. I developed my interest in suicide prevention, I mean, I'm psychiatrists. Of course, I treated lot of patients who were suicide all and that is definitely was important and of high interest, but what sort of caught my attention in sort of an alarming way was that over the course of time during my training. And then once I joined the faculty at UCSD, then we're number of physician colleagues took their lives over a period of time. And I mean, you know, it was more than a dozen and that because of the work I was already doing had become a dean in the med school had some kind of was was positioned to be able to create programs, and you know, mentor and advise and teach we sort of were charged by the head dean Vig dean to look into what was going on. And you know, was there something that the environment has to do with suicide. Risk. And and you know, it's almost like embarrassing, but I had trained in psychiatry. I developed interest in suicide prevention, but it wasn't really until I had scoured the literature to understand that like I was talking about before about the multiple risk factors that the environment and the culture matters. And if mental health treatment is out there, and of course, as doctors, we have access to all sorts of specialists and knowledge, and we have insurance we, you know, we're we're in some ways the best position to get good care. But because of other factors we don't we limit ourselves from getting mental health care anyway. Yeah. It it. It's suicide touches all different types of people. And my start was having lost physician colleagues to suicide, but you know, now from the national space, it's really amazing to see all sorts of things changing in health systems in policy. I mean, this this abbot. Cosc- movement is so strong. There have been dozens of state and federal laws that have been enacted just in the last five to seven years that are going to make a difference. But with like, we're building right now, and the one the biggest thing that we're still waiting for honestly in our country is that the federal investment in research is not yet commensurate with the mortality toll in the level of suffering. So it's it's it's in the forty to sixty million dollars a year range, whereas other leading causes of death that take as many lives get, you know, Penfold hundredfold greater amounts that they just haven't figured out yet and actually shine a light the sigma comes in. It's it's, you know, same thing with the diction, which is you did it yet. You picked up the bottle you picked up you jump, right? That's right. Oh my God. Absolutely. And so much overlap to between a diction and suicide risk and of course with the opioid epidemic as well. So it's going down to the veterans. Great. What what can you tell me about that population where we're headed? When needs to be done. I think most people are aware that it's an issue. There's a lot of overall lap, of course, PTSD opiate addiction where we going with this. Okay. Well, yes, I mean, as you know that trend's rate of suicide began to rise about a decade decade in the half ago. And unfortunately, it has not yet been turned around. So currently the latest statistics is that on any given average day. We lose twenty veterans to suicide. It's not unusual following any given more the sound. Like, this is a modern phenomenon. This is just regaining awareness of it. Now. That's exactly right. I mean, it is interesting. If you look at suicide rates for the, you know, for many different countries over decades, there is kind of a ebben flow to it, and it so, you know, sometimes it is kind of an odd phenomenon that when there's a celebrity death by suicide there's attention to it almost as if it's a new problem or it's reaching you know, suddenly it's an epidemic phase. And it hasn't really gone like that. That's that's been the matter of what what the media and hell attention has worked, you know, when it comes to something, that's so stigmatized. But again, I think we're building something that's much more kind of without the stigma there we can actually build a plan in place for communities and for a nation health systems that deuces loss of life to suicide. But so anyway in the in the vet. Trinh community twenty veterans per day. Only six of those twenty veterans on average are plugged into the VA healthcare system. And so they veterans are out there in communities, you know, either accessing treatment or not in in social circles, and you know, so so the VA has made a concerted effort to actually partner with kind of civic and community organizations that are outside of the VA system. Because it's it's thought that that's how we'll better reach veterans. And and what we're seeing in terms of the trends is that it is younger veterans, Afghanistan and Iraqi war veterans that have much higher rates than older veterans. And also there's been a rise in female veterans. Unfortunately in their suicide rate as well. Experience the sort of average case is someone that has PTSD may or may not have substance alcohol unwilling to go into group run on just won't go to therapist or a, you know, a veterans group begin isolating the world start shrinking they start isolating. They get desperate. They get hopeless. And then it's on that sort of the average case. Yeah. I mean, I think you know, there's there's also a high rate of high risk of suicide and people who even are in treatment or have been in treatment been diagnosed let's with PTSD and addiction. But yet when they're they pull away from the treatment. It's not when they're injury, right. Yes. That's certainly is more often the case, and you know, there's so many social factors that plan to this as well homelessness and financial strain. And really the culture. I mean, I have to say that if you if you link up this topic that we're talking about with what we talked about earlier that the middle-age population, especially white males seeing the greatest rise. And it's eighty percent of all suicides are white males. I mean, we have to look at the culture around, you know, what's considered manly macho? And and I think one of the coolest things were seeing especially in the younger population. Like, you were alluding to is that there's this new movement where authenticity is celebrated. So even for young men, and I hope that can extend to middle aged men and two veteran males as well. And female veterans for that matter as well that the strong person is actually reaching out and taking care of themselves doing themselves, you know, not just as a suffering individual on their own, but as connected to their family and their community and that were were making. Decisions about our own health with this kind of larger view in mind of almost like yourself as a resource to others culture, though. I I mean, obviously, there's the issue of a warrior just pushing through and that you're somehow deficient broken. If you have to reach out for for help or go to, you know, have illness that you need treatment for is that the culture you're talking about because the other culture that I'm seeing affect white males is they're they're feeling unwanted worthless. With little opportunity, and sort of sort of pushed aside, our culture. Yeah. I think it's definitely both and not not majorly exclusive either. But, but I was more referring to the first thing that you're talking about that, you know, I just think about the men in my life, professionally and personally, and, you know, I'm surrounded by people who are super sophisticated about this stuff who are like, you know, out there breaking down walls to to get the work done suicide prevention, and then when it comes to if I've struggled myself, and who do I turn to there's just this weird part of it is just I think a human instinct, frankly, almost maybe like a primitive instinct, if you think about like what animals and really bugs when they're under threat. They roll up. They they they take cover. So there's that instinct that we do, but we also have this culture where we think that if we present the shiny. Glossy face of success that somehow that's more important than being the fully human being that can say, you know. Yeah, I've got all this stuff going for me. But sometimes I struggle sometimes I feel lonely. You know, whatever it is. We all have that complexity to us and put a little bit of parcelle Alba. We do we do roll up and go into a cave, but the other humans do go towards each other look at each other when they're trying to figure out what to do. And then they go at each other. When it's when it's time to support we have we had both both instincts. And then I think when it comes to this issue of being in pain having to wrestle with something painful when we say to another person, it becomes real. And when we can just sort of spin in our own head, we can kind of control it. It's kind of ours. But we say to another person. Okay. Now, it's now it's on. Now. It's real. Yeah. You're so right about that. I call this sort of integrating your full south because I've noticed that some people compartmentalize so much that they could be struggling having thoughts of suicide but in their day to day life. They're not talking about it. They're not looking that way, showing it at all. So it's the super like almost associated like fractured way of existing. But yeah, I like what you said to about the, you know, the humans go at each other to like, I think that there's a fear based on that sense that, you know, you're you have to kind of keep your guard up that this sort of admission of humanness and struggle will will really make you more vulnerable. And you know, so in some of the education, we do in our programming around suicide prevention, and we're developing a program actually for the loved ones of of people with lived experience. You've had a suicide attempt and helping. Family members and friends understand what is helpful and what's going on with their loved one who's been suicidal. But you know, we we really encourage them first of all not to just go tell the whole wide world, don't, you know, you may not have faith workplace where it's worth a good idea to talk about your mental health struggles, not all workplaces are the same. So there's some nuance to kind of education. But certainly if you're the helping person there's some very clear pathways to establish for that person who may be suffering in your life that you are a safe person. In fact, you want to understand what they're going through. I'm just showing that interest and curiosity as a way of showing love and support. I think is the first basic steps preventions your goal, but do also deal help or resources for the aftermath. If somebody is successful. Yeah. That's yes. Yes. Another has supported under dealt with population. Oh, thank you for bringing that up. Apis P was founded by families that had suffered loss of loved ones to suicide and actually, you know, kind of alongside scientists. So there's this longstanding tradition that we have where it's lived experience and loss along with science. But yes, if you really understand how much of our population has been affected by loss to suicide. It's something like fifty five percent in our latest Harris polls when you really extended out to not just a close family member but out into your larger circles, you know, over a lifetime. So it, and there's a sort of level of severity and profound grief and suicide losses very complex type of loss, especially depending on the relationship that you have with that person. But it it's not necessarily about. Kind of family bonds. It can be more about the the level of closeness in the relationship or the level of complexity in the relationship that can affect what type of grieving that that person is going to have. So we do have all kinds of what we call loss and healing resources everything from a visit by trained peer who's lost a similar type of relationship person in their life to just come and be with that person who's more newly bereaved and really introduce them to the resources and that there's a whole community out there. We host a support group listing. We train facilitators of support groups where people lost Loveland suicide in every year in November. We put on a program, that's actually worldwide. It's something like thirty four countries. Now, that's called survivor days international survivors of suicide loss days. It's official title. And it's a day where people come together in person and online, actually, and we produce a film each. Ear and there's just you know way. We we think about it is that the journey after losing someone to suicide is it's not a, you know, a cure type situation a one and done. It is a journey over a long period of time, but things can change and that person can regain aspects of their health their mental health their own sense of coping and their own sense of their future. Which is obviously so important when when suicide loss does affect so many people. I think we've run the the cycle. We're back at home plate AFSPC dot org is the website the out of the darkness overnight. Walk is coming up June eighth and ninth and San Francisco twenty second and twenty third of June in Boston the overnight dot org. You you can follow DOCOMO Mutua, see Mucci, Emo UT. I e r MD on Twitter where else would you like people to find you? That's that's it. And main thing is AFS p dot org and anyone who's interested in learning more and also getting connected with community. There are lots of ways to do that either online or in person through our chapters. We've got chapters in all fifty states. No. I mean, I think the main thing Dr Drew's I so appreciate that. You've been an advocate for so long related to issues of mental health and suicide prevention, and that, you know, your listeners are gaining from that if anyone is listening right now and is struggling we would just say, you are not alone. There's the suicide prevention lifeline, one eight hundred two seven three talk crisis text line that you can text twenty four seven seven four one seven for one and many of us have been there. You are not alone. Just hold on reach out and get help. I've been depressed. I've had panic attacks and suicidal thoughts here and there never had a plan. But yeah, I'm a human being to Annabella therapy. It's good times. Exactly, exactly fame. By the way, could not deal very effectively as I do with psychiatric patients had I not been able to relate and had good treatment that I know. Such a huge difference. I mean, you know, all that work. I was doing related to suicide prevention in in our field of medicine. I I had this sense that if we could just get, you know, get real about it ourselves. We're going to do so much better for patients. You know, also high. Attentive and also prostate cancer, and it's all the same. It's all part of the medical makeup of who. I am. And that's that. And so. Human health absolutely be treated any differently than my prostate or my hypertension. So there you go. All right. Well, I appreciate you spending time with me, and hopefully, we'll talk again soon. Thank stuck to do. Take care. Jay if SP dot org annals here next time for Colin times in topics the show on Twitter at Dr drew podcast. That's DR DR w podcast music. Through today's episode can be found on the swing sounds of the document podcast now available on I tunes. And while you're there, don't forget your rate the show, the Dr drew podcast Corolla digital production. Hen is produced by Chris locks on and Gary Smith for more information, go to Dr drew dot com. All conversation information exchange during the participation in the doctor who podcast is intended for educational and dinner tainted focuses, only do not confuse this with treatment or medical advice or direction nothing on these podcasts supplement or supersede relationship and direction of your medical hair, takers, although Dr drew is a license physician with specialty board certification by the American board of internal medicine in the American of addiction medicine, he's not functioning as physician in this environment. The same applies to any professionals who may appear on the podcast, Dr drew dot com. Now is the chance to use reliable energy to grow your money with the dominion energy reliability investment. Our new investment product offers competitive returns, no maintenance fees and flexible online access to your money. Make the reliable investment in reliable energy, the dominion energy reliability investment to find out more. Go online to reliability investment dot com. That's reliability investment dot com. Infrastructure plans. I'm McGuire AP newsmen at two trillion dollars. That's what house speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate minority leader Chuck Schumer say is the cost they in President Trump agreed on to fix the nation's infrastructure Schumer says they also agreed on a broader outlines clear that both the White House and all of us want to get something done on infrastructure in a big and bold way. And there was goodwill in this meeting Schumer ads they will meet with Trump in three weeks talk about funding the projects President Trump's national security advisor John Bolton says they anti government uprising in Venezuela is being led by opposition leader, one Guido, not the US. This is an act of bravery by Guido and others really for the freedom of the Venezuelan people Bolton says the leadership of the Venezuelan militaries afraid to take part because of the presence of Cuban troops in the country Arab. All there have been clashes between demonstrators and security forces who are using water, cannons and tear gas. I'm Tim Maguire.

Boston PTSD American Foundation San Francisco depression Dr Drew United States truecar Measles Christie Mucci med school Jay Harris White House EMU Adra Chuck Schumer Twitter Kane
Gilles de Kerchove on 5G

Good Code

18:35 min | 1 year ago

Gilles de Kerchove on 5G

"The five G.. The next generation mobile technology is coming with increasing speed and decreased latency. It will power any any naval of vast array of services from Internet of things objects to self driving cars and remote surgeries and with these new possibilities. Come new vulnerabilities. No risks new threats. The security of five G. networks is on everybody's minds these days in the US. The debate bait has focused on the role played by Chinese companies like Wal way in building the five chain of structure on the other side of the Atlantic while that question is also considered member states of the European Union have been working on national risk assessments to come up with coordinated measures but our guest views things from a slightly different angle. He worries that five G.. Networks if there to secure could make it impossible for law enforcement agencies to do their job and prevent criminal and terrorist attacks. Welcome to the second season of good coat and weekly podcast on on ethics in our digital lives in two days. Episode or gassed is Julia Katkov. He's a Belgian national and the European Union Counterterrorism Coordinator Coordinator. I sat down with him in September in Washington DC where we both attended the French American Foundation cybersecurity conference before speaking about five G.. I began by asking him. What was the main challenge? When looking at disruptive technologies from the law enforcement perspective? Yes there are many challenges. The first one is many of these. Technologies are developed in silence the by private companies a lot in the silicon valley and government often discovered that when it goes on the market. We need to debate a lot. More speed is easy. Men's and finally another challenge is and I'm a fan on all these developments but it's after developed by people with sort of libertarian mindset. In some of these may have an impact on a state sovereignty if you look at The libra that's facebook wants to launch or Graham by today grab. This is a major challenge for a sovereign state St Luke at encryption the Attorney General of the United States delivered recently a speech where he call on the Silicon Valley to find technical solution. Shen too low for low full interception of communication you remember to fight between the director of the FBI shield apple but no it seems that we legal boy more dark. Why because it's more and more difficult to get access to the content of an email message on what's up and so entered five five G? It's quite surprising to see that the body in charge of defining the standard For Five G. is controlled by the private sector. Government do not have the vote the majority of the voting rights and so therefore for the the law enforcement agency the Chinese to understand the to assess the risks and investing all this. So that's why I've pushed a lot the EU agency for law enforcement cooperation called Europol to create a- an innovation lab with older agencies in charge of Security Anita full cybersecurity from takes for Boulder Management. Eurojust for dredged edgy. Show cooperation seople for police training. And they it's not that easy because you need to attract the best people with the right skills. And on Cyber for instance you. Don't be a Sabir expert. The way you be a police officer. They're expensive and they're demanded many companies and I guess yeah the the idea of a lab would be to be able to anticipate and not always react it. Would I do sort of horizon scanning and try to see what is emerging the new emerging attack assess the threat as I've said before instance quite interesting. The French Minister of Defence has decided to recruit people working working on in movies writing novels to try to see the future. Because we need to think out of the box so just expert is not enough and so trying to launch concrete project one example we need to seek you a lot better the money that the duress para ascending to the home countries trees. They most of them use a system called our which is not transparent that all difficult to manager so may be used for money laundering terrorist. There is financing. So why don't we try to use bloodshed. For instance Europe could develop its own tool like penalty. Finally another idea he would be to The conflict between different apparently conflicting values security safety ethics and data protection any privacy Instead of having a completely black and white discussion on these values but more putting all aspects together and try to find compromise so I want to talk a little bit about five G. and we'll get into a report that you wrote in. May that got quite some press but about five jr in general. I I just want to ask you. It's a worry that's on everyone's minds today. The development of this new technology where the dawn of it really there are two narratives that are sort of coexisting one is that it's going to be tremendous Mundus. Hostilities opportunities with increased speed and decreased latency. And it's GONNA basically offer absolute connectivity in all realms of life and the other simultaneous narrative is that of new and numerous new vulnerabilities at different levels at the same time with different actors and a global infrastructure and and sort of divided infrastructure. So from where you stand should we be. Do you think we should be excited or scared of this new technology. No it's very exciting because it will Improve life significantly connected car. Removed Surgery Dr In New York. Yeah Trying to Work on someone in Brussels Smart cities and so a lot more flow of information and so so I see dominion the mini benefits but of course seats. We will have everything interconnected. We need to have a robust system. We cannot have lose thought of the system and that that requires a lot of these stringent standards and system. And so I'm not working on the whole fight. You mentioned a report that I produced was recently was more on lawful interception. We can come to that report. European Commission has done and I think it's the right way to proceed to ask each and every member stay. I swear system self govern abilities they see while implementing five G. and it's much wider than the issue which has been on the front on page of the newspapers on as to whether we will opt for Chinese company or not you are A or not. It's a lot more than that. My aspect is a beat. The different one. It's a difficult one because what I just referred to is to avoid that they be Backdoor into system which would allow a no style State it or an organized crime group or a terrorist organization to enter into the system and derail a connected car or to spy and get access assist to sensitive data and so forth and the point is that in the current context as I've said before body linked to called the tree GP GP where that come appraises sent and professionals are discussing the standard Finalizing the standard for security. They are considering seadream. Pushing more and more encryption for security obvious reason but to the extent it will be more and more difficult for law enforcement agency where notarized by the judge to lawfully intercept communication on top of the standard. The technical nature of five G.. Nice me to give you all the detail. Because of the new system call slicing part of information we'd be spread between different operators decentralisation. The information will not be the Centralizing the central node. And when you intercept it's much easier to intercept at the central note but will be more sort of decentralized computing system system the encryption all these aspects will have the possible consequences it will be more difficult if not impossible for law enforcement listen agency either to a look allies or identified user the holder of a mobile phone and to intercept the content. And this is an initially because it's not because we are moving more and more on the digital world that We can no longer interrupts a crime or investigate. He gave crime a big Fan of Data Protection and privacy local author of the Charter of Fan Right of European Union. I probably have drafted myself articles. Seven and article eight of the Charter. Which is about privacy and data protection? But everybody would understand that. It's it's not acceptable that you let the Crooks Crooks criminals operating a completely freely and committing the crime with no possibility for the cops in the police in the Infosys Agency to investigate interrupted. It's interesting because in the US the focus as you said has been on way on the spying concerns but also there was very recently in the Report by the Brookings Institute about Cybersecurity when it comes to five G. and they need to really focus on that not on. Why Way and on all the vulnerabilities? I'll never abilities that are coming in. You're sort of going the opposite way. You're wearing that we're putting too much security loop what I'm saying. I do agree. The it's a complicated issue because we want to close all the back door and at the same time get the front door for low full interception. We have to find ways technique he could ways to achieve the two together I understand the nuance but the coverage of your report has been. You probably have seen there. Were some titles. When French Media Road Rhode Europe wants to decrease the security five G. to facilitate your surveillance another one translated as the UK for security loopholes in five G. Standard? So I understand. That's not your goal. But how do you reconcile that need for a legal front doors and the fact that we need a more secure system than previous ones ends because the VILNA VILNA abilities will be more numerous. But he's exactly the same issue that was raised by the Attorney General Bar in a recent speech when he called on on the city to find solution to low low. Full interception on telegram found more on WHATSAPP and all social media. I think they have the brain. They head to the people who can do that. What at the same time not compromising or making the system more vulnerable? I think everybody would understand that. He someone is plotting nine eleven type attack. We of course want to protect your privacy but is it at the expense of not being able to interrupt that sort of lotto or that if there is a an important oaten crimen network operating To the United States Would no longer be possible for the FBI to intercept tiny thing trust for for the sake of the FOLSOM imminent I'm a bitter price and so You were just talking about the idea of trying to influence the five standards as they are being Established are you optimistic confident. Because you said it's an industry are heavy body. That's looking at these standards. Are you optimistic that you can really. We have the European individual countries around the world. You member says and and the United States had meetings here in Washington which showed they. They are looking into it as well very seriously. I think if it's not properly addressed in the recommendation on standards it will have to be done by member states to legislation and I cannot believe that we will launch a five G. and have the law enforcement agency. He completely in the dark. It will not happen so better to have it. I with the Senate. Avoid legislation will be needed and just on a more philosophical surgical level. A tough question but five is the promise as I was saying earlier off tuttle connectivity. From your surgery to your medical choline formation in your watch to everything basically all realms of life in this kind of world. Isn't the possibility of surveillance itself dangerous. That's the consequence of the digitalization into big data world in which we are living and that's why the European Union is the forefront of data protection addiction with the GDP are which tend to become a worldwide standard. You see state of the United States like California adopting station and and we hope it will be invite away not a military power. But it's that's one of the Subject where Europe has world influence I I believe we have to to promote that more and more we are insisting for instance when we develop a partnership with third state adopt inadequate level of data protection and system pretty similar to the EU otherwise we we cannot cooperate. We cannot exchange passenger name record data and so forth not not not having relationship agency Europol unless deter state has inadequate level of data protection. The next step will be on the new president of the commission insist insist on having the ethical guideline may be transformed into a legislation when it comes to artificial intelligence. We want to have human European century artificial deficient intelligence and avoid bias. And that's equally important. It's not an issue of did a protectionist searches more an issue of fairness and looking at the Al Gore. It meant so and so I think again. We may take the lead on that. But I'm confident that most of the Democratic states in the world eventually originally will do the same in just to get back to my way in the US. The focus in on fifty has really been about the risk of Chinese spying wearing DC Rhino. We know in the nation's capital Washington has banned Weiwei hardware from their network Some countries heavily toot around the world. I've read had also that Washington said it would limit its information sharing with countries. That would not do the same. So is that a concern from you. I mean you're you're working on counterterrorism counterterrorism effort so having Washington potentially limiting its information-sharing would be a big issue. How do you see that because I know that Europe for now has not not at decided to follow and to ban all Chinese hardware Abbott? To how do you see that. It's too early to say that the threat that you mentioned will eh happen but on the other hand I would be surprised that even if some embassies do use your way would see. I don't know if what you mentioned will happen. Because experienced through that it's really necessary for all the allies in Western world. Who Work Vaguely to get get her an exchange data so not having a make data collected by? US would probably lead for Europe not exchange data we the US the US. It's a negative sum game. I think nobody would take that risk in your report to the Council of the you you you write that and I quote from a leadership perspective in new technologies. It's one of the rare future. Markets where European not American companies are well positioned for leadership. And it's true. There are five companies basically serving the five G. Is that part of the solution. Also promoting you companies will she. We'd not express myself from the WHO who will win the tender would see. I always end my interviews by asking my guests if I were to give them a magic Zeke wants and they can change one thing. What would that be so either? In the way that technology is being developed or in the way it will be rolled out during the way it is consumed or Anything if you could change one thing to make sure that Five gene works in a way that satisfies you from your counterterrorism position job job. What would that be if you could change one thing? We need to be a lot more able to integrate all dimensions security ethics Fundamental Rights Data Protection Privacy. So tech should be able to do that so to be a real benefit for all of us and not just that it becomes A new sort of a Hawaiian world. Where we they changed so much life that people Would suffer from it when you see already. The impact of of Internet social media on People's attention There is a real problematic addiction. Were when I'm in New York. Most of the people don't work in the seat. They only work into seed by looking at mobile phone. They don't talk to each other. The attention of teenage Aziz Limited tonight seconds We see more fake news Having a major impact on and What people think we have to have a human centric hi-tech development that would be my dream? Yeah well thank you so much for your time aiming for being with us today to happy. That was good code collaboration with Cornell Tags Digital Life Initiative these podcast is produced hosted and edited by Yours Truly Koraish ripple is on mix engineer. Zoe SARANAC is our music composer. Thanks for listening and if you liked it take a minute to tell a friend about us. Leave US five stars on Itunes itunes and say hi contact at good good podcast dot com but most importantly come back next week

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Clairo - Alewife

Song Exploder

24:33 min | 1 year ago

Clairo - Alewife

"You're listening to song explorer where musicians take apart their songs and piece by piece. Tell the story of how they were made. My Name is Ritchie. Cash your your way. This episode is presented by District Kit for musicians at their districted is the easiest least expensive offensive way to get your music onto streaming platforms like spotify Apple Music Amazon Pandora and tons more district doesn't take a commission you can put up as much music as you want want all for an annual subscription fee starting at just nine thousand nine hundred ninety year and you can get ten percent off your first year of membership to district get by going to this destroy roquette dot com slash. VIP Slash Song Explorer. That's districted dot com slash. VIP Slash Song Explode her in this episode is supported by Progressive Progressive. has you covered when it comes to car insurance starting with built in savings like discounts for being a safe driver driver you can also save when you start your quote online or have multiple vehicles on your policy in fact a survey of drivers who switched and saved in two thousand eighteen showed an average annual annual savings of six hundred ninety nine dollars started quote online and see all the discounts for yourself visit progressive DOT com. Today discounts are not available in all states dates in situations before we begin there a couple of things I wanted to mention about the episode you're about to hear first of all. If you haven't Amazon Echo Smart Speaker you might want to disable it or we're turn it off or something because you're going to hear the name Alexa in this episode a few times and if your speakers an earshot it's probably going to do a whole thing secondly on a serious note this episode so deals in part with thoughts of suicide so please be careful and be mindful also if you're having thoughts of suicide yourself confidential help is available for free you you can call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at eight hundred two seven three talk. That's eight hundred two seven three talk. You can also text the crisis this text line just text the word alot two seven four one seven four one. You're not alone a pulling up to these resources on the song exploded website. If you want to join me in making a donation to the American Foundation for suicide prevention he can find the info on the website as well. I'll mention it again. At the end of this episode all right right here we go clear. cockrel is a singer songwriter producer who goes by the name Clara she started releasing music in two thousand fourteen a few years later songsheet uploaded to youtube had racked up over forty million views this year Claro put her debut album community. She's recently performed formed on Ellen and Jimmy Kimmel and played arenas opening for Khalid in this episode Claro Breaks Down Her Song Elway. I spoke to Claire Andrew co-producer Rostom Combat Mongoloid who's formerly of the band vampire weekend and his other producing credits include. I'm Maggie Rogers and Charlie X here's Claro on Song Explorer it could my name is Claire Cultural. Oh also known as Claro. This song was born at Truth Studios in Los Angeles. I spent a month month out in Los Angeles writing the record and I spent every day in this studio occasionally landing on songs in writing some guitar and came up with a new and I have been talking to my best friend Alexa the time. Just you know texting her while I was doing and guitar she was there for me in a really difficult time I was going through a lot of depression and anxiety throughout middle school high school and it really hit a low point in eighth grade. They got two point where it was like. I just couldn't really leave leave my room. I wasn't really even close with Alexa at the time but I remember talking to her one night telling her that I didn't want to be here anymore more. It was a rough night for me. It was like I was afraid of what was going to happen and before I knew it. There were police officers at my door because Alexa I had called for them. You know she was with me the whole night calling me and texting me charted be there for me which is something I had never had in. My whole. Life never had a best friend like that or someone who would drop everything to make sure that I was okay case `specially at bedtime for a while I was mad that they were police. Officers involved in that had to go to therapy and it was this whole ordeal but without her. I have no idea how my life would be now so when I was writing the guitar I I just decided that it was time for me to talk about this experience less about how sad it was more about how grateful I cam for Alexa hanging you know I say and do something sooner so I just was like too impatient to go into the booth and record the vocals so I just decided to pull out the good ole voice memos. The only reason I recorded it on my phone was to send her the song so that she knew that I'd Miss Song about it. My my name is Alexa. I was sitting in the dining room with my mom and to get a text from Claire and she goes. I wrote a song about you and I was like okay. Wait what and she sent me a demo and go okay mom. I'm GonNa play some sinclair sent me and I played off my phone and we both just started crying uh-huh system and I I just felt so many things going through my body of just all these emotions and it took me back to the night that that song was about which we don't really talk about a lot but we know that it was there. It still felt pretty fresh rush to talk about. I guess Iowa's thirteen at the time and I'm twenty one now is something that my family and I talked abou how but never really brought up unless we had to never really brought it up to my friends especially in music and made me feel really scene to write a song about that specific night and then I recorded it for real with a drum machine. I've been listening to a lot of Elliott Smith and it was important for me to double track the vocals I think that was like one of my favorite things about Elliott Smith's music so in this now is kind of like the evolved demo for awesome was involved. My name is Ross Simba Mhlanga J- I was at a party and someone mention action Clair's music and they have you heard Claro and then I went home and I listened to her music but I was like well. There's something about this person's voice. It sounded like a voice that I heard my whole life or something like if felt familiar in a way and I I was drawn to it so then I think I'd just dmt her and just said hey what's up. I like music. I was shocked. I didn't even think he knew existed. That was like a here's a big moment for me just because I've always been such a big fan so I think we're both kind of like. Should we try to make some music. Claire brought me the sessions of the songs that she'd started on her own and I hadn't actually had very much experience working in that way where the vocals are recorded and the artists says I don't I want every record the vocals. I'm happy with them. So all the vocals on the song are the ones that Claire Recorded at truth he told me certain times two three four nine into and she is such a huge part of not just the songwriting of this song in which she wrote but also the production I loved getting these songs from Claire and getting the whole pro till session and to sit together in a room room and really take something that she had started the production and then put our heads together so all the guitar on this Song Alewife is played by Clare the one thing I asked her to do when we got to my studio was to replay her Electric Guitar Parts on Acoustic Guitar because to me e that pushed it more into the world of Elliott Smith just because the songs that that I connect the most strongly with our his acoustic acoustic guitar songs yeah exactly after we recorded the acoustics. I started playing the chords on the piano. I didn't know that that could be the start of the song. It was just kind of like another way of activating the cords. I was thinking unlike there's something about the way that the corporation interacts with the vocal melody. That's really powerful so I didn't change anything the rhythm or I don't think I didn't change the chords I just kind of activated them differently on the piano. It felt really good to hear the piano with guitar for the first time as soon as I heard the song I was Kinda like picturing a drummer holding down on the Tom the sixteenth notes that image just POPs into my mind so when we were in the studio together. That's how I kind of started the beat with just that Tom boom boom boom boom boom boom. All the individual samples are recorded with a tape machine and there's three different velocities lost cities in three different samples for every velocity for each hit. There's nine different samples that you could trigger with your keyboard so even though the drums aren't real because it does it actually when you hear it in isolation it does kind of sound fake but if you hear it in the song it doesn't sound sound fake. They sound like they could be real. Drums are everything halfway through the song. There's a hi hat that comes in. It's just like a drummer clamping to hi hats together. It kind of opens up this Puerto like you can hear the beat a few different ways. That's the kind of stuff that I'm always trying to do with drums just trying to make you hear rhythm them differently throughout the song like so second chapter. You know it's a new chapter unfolds where it's suddenly this. Hi Hat comes in and it's keeping time in a different different way and it's adding an emphasis in a different place. It's movement the courts. Don't change a whole song and there's no like bridge. There's no real structure to the song and I always tend to do that but Rawson Rawson was never afraid of that. He always found ways to bring movement into the song I mean one of the biggest things about this whole record in general was taking songs that were almost there and then bringing them. They're Rawson was so great at not taking away the things that I had made but just elevating them yet so then electric guitar is still actually Sung I copied and pasted it over to the very end of the song and then I also put a fuzz distortion effect. I guess what I like. Most about the song is that there are moments that are so soft but then there's also a really harsh moments like the distortion. Having both on one song is really special to me 'cause tying it to the lyrics. This experience can feel really soft impersonal and hard to talk about but then those emotions can also feel really harsh you can feel like everything's crashing down on you and having both of those moments. It's in the song did a lot for me because it is that gray area in Sioux ooh been sister. Oh no in the last line you know I'll be alright eighth grade. It was never that tight. It's like just adding some humor into something. That's just the least humorous thing in the world I find my most favorite songs are honest doesn't necessarily feel like everything has to rhyme or everything else to sound like a groundbreaking lyric. You can just talk directly to the person listening and they can understand talking to them like your friend or like someone that you're actually telling the story to is is important but it's also important to acknowledge that like no one liked eighth grade. No one anyone who does like eighth grade is is a psychopath soon into the original title for the song was eighth grade and naming at alewife became really important. I mentioned alewife only once in the song and it's not necessarily about it was a train station in Massachusetts that I would drive to from my small town Hyde Park fair and I would take the t to different parts of the city where I wanted to go. I could get there from alive. I think the reason why started this song with those words because it just became this kind of portal two different world growing up in a small town of five thousand people can be really hard to feel understood and and when I started to be more involved in the music scene in Boston going to house shows meeting kids from they're going to flea markets meeting kids. They're just like talking to them about using them knowing the same stuff. I know that was the first I don. I was like oh I lifted a really small town and there's so many people in the world that are just like me. It's like thirty minutes from ill wife from the thirteen year old me. I'm like damn that's so far. I don't have a car. I'd drive my mom will drive me thirty minutes. It's to a train station but then now it's like while I was only thirty minutes from this place that opened up so much for me. A lot of Mike growing up was in solitude and something that I just never did was I never changed for other people and I think that's what drove a a lot of people away the mets what made me WanNa seclude myself but yeah I just Kinda like until Alexa just kind of lost. She just like really gave me the confidence to continue to pee myself in. She's the reason why I even pursued music in a lot of ways. It's really important that I talk about how amazing people like Alexa are and how a lot of people have those people bull whether they know it or not. There's someone like Alexa that would come out of the woodwork to make sure that you're okay and that was what I wanted to into say the most. It's kind of a love song to her back. In November on my birthday last year she sent me the sweetest message and acknowledged knowledged that night you know everything that had happened and wrote this really heartfelt message to me kind of thanking me for our friendship and and how without what had happened that night things probably would have been very different than you know. Maybe she wouldn't have been here but when the album came out I took the time to put in my headphones and sit down and just be with the song and it made me so emotional all but so thankful that I had friendship with such an incredible person and I will forever be grateful for what she did. There's nothing nothing more nothing less grateful forever here's alewife by Claro and its entirety in this ooh Sir Sir in the and then ooh ooh in your own visit song exploded dot net for more information about Claro and Rostom. You'll also find a link to buy or stream L. Oh life thanks so much to Alexa speaking to me for this episode as well and again if you're having thoughts about suicide or if you're worried about a friend or loved one or if you'd like emotional I support the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is available twenty four seven across the US you can find out more at suicide prevention lifeline dot org and you can call eight hundred two seven three talk or text the word hello to seven four one seven four one. She'd like to make a donation to the American Foundation Foundation for suicide prevention their website is AF SP dot org song exploded is made by me Rishikesh your way along with producer Christian in Kuhn's Olivia would help with production assistance Carlos. LERMA is our illustrator for most of this year filling in for me has been guest host Tau Win. She'll be back next episode. Song exploded is a proud member of Radio Tokyo from NPR ex a curated collective independent creative podcasts you can learn about about all of our shows at Radio Topa Dot. FM You can also follow song explode on Facebook Instagram and twitter at Song Explorer. I'm Richie case case your way. Thanks for Listening Talk Radio

Alexa Claro National Suicide Prevention Li Claire Elliott Smith Claro Alexa producer spotify Los Angeles Progressive Progressive. Rawson Rawson Tom boom Ritchie District Kit Claire Andrew Amazon American Foundation US Truth Studios
139 - Waiting for Joe DiMaggio

The Kitchen Sisters Present

33:35 min | 10 months ago

139 - Waiting for Joe DiMaggio

"Welcome to the kitchen sisters present six where the kitchen sisters. Dave Nelson N. Nikki Silva today with America's favorite pastime on hold the kitchen sisters present one of our favorite stories waiting for Joe Dimaggio Sicilian village waits in vain for Charlton. That was the headline that I pulled a sin. It was an article in the San Francisco Chronicle April twenty-sixth Nineteen ninety-three Chilton Joe. Baseball's legendary Joe to Maggio who played for the New York Yankees for nineteen thirty four to fifty one. His fifty six game hitting streak still stands one of the enduring records in sports. We're fans of Joma show. He grow up in San Francisco the eighth of nine children of Sicilian immigrants. He played in the boys club league with the other kids from North Beach. Right here near offices Joe Dimaggio mythic heroic larger than life and it didn't hurt that he was married to Marilyn Monroe for a while. So the headline it's no wonder it caught Davies I- Cecilia village waits in vain for jolt and Joe. This is what it set Feminine Sicily. Ever since the day last May nineteen ninety-two when Judge Giovanni Falcone was killed in a car bombing. A few hundred yards from here. This tiny village west of Palermo has been desperate to redeem. Its good name then like a sign from heaven. Word suddenly arrived. That salvation was at hand in the form of the Yankee Clipper at long last the villages most celebrated product jolt and Joe. Dimaggio was coming home to the village where his parents were married. Probably coming up go to module is really pick it up at home plate. Yeah he's really something. Just tell you a little story in my neighborhood in South Philadelphia. There's a barbara was named. Frank also sings Frankie cheech and teach the boy who cut all of my sons here. I take them from Vermont to fill up having first haircut because he gave me mine auto teaches in his eighties and in his window in Southwell opposite picture Sinatra who was hip Sicilian and a picture of the module a Sicilian tells me the stories told me twenty times about Dimaggio will the Yankees play the Philippians aligned drivers at the center fuel catches loosen. Your blessing of the twenty five million Italian American life and work so enrich our country is in your blessing upon this national Italian American Foundation. Be with us now. Lord the friendship of this evening deal unequal attend informed the nowy Il Tuo Asunto speeding. Speeding your eminence. Your Talian is absolutely flawless. Welcome to the National Tag. American Foundation's annual dinner continuing events since nineteen seventy six. I want to introduce to you the members of this day US tonight. I'm Dr Ken Changli now. The Senior Vice President of the National American Foundation. I am a fourth generation Italian American and the about a dozen years ago. This flyer came across my desk inviting meets the National Italian American Foundation. Now I would never join a an Italian American organization that American but it was an excuse to go to New York City and I went I was astounded. I went into the men's room and the men were four deep combing their hair. Which in Vermont? No-one combs her hair so I knew that I was home. All under arrest the director of the Federal Bureau Investigation. This is true story. I sat down beside this lovely. Typically Italian manicured woman about sixty years of age and I instantly knew a better grandchildren and her mother and father and as we as I was sitting there. She opened her purse and she pulled out a pair and said to me. Would you like a pair? Your lips look dry. I said I love this organization. Where have you been? I want to tell you that this party today is perhaps the best party. In all of America everyone who has a vowel in the middle of the end of their names has come here we've had Sinatra and Stallone Tiana poverty and Gina Lollobrigida in one thousand. Nine hundred nine at the Washington Hilton naive honored the legendary Joe. Tony show proud to present to you. My greatest hero of them. All Jodi Maggio does that with Oliver. Says he won't be using the voice of his father's fishing they say it took John Salomon eight years to convince the elusive. Yankee Clipper to represent the National Italian American Foundation. I approached Joe. Dimaggio on the idea that It really be good to go to Italy to kind of be a goodwill ambassador for the National Italian American Foundation and he liked the idea and I kind of got a sense from him of what his priorities were. One of them was seeing his hometown in eastern Della Femina. He's a fishing village. It's a small just off. The coast is Iraq. Sticking out of the water which gives the talents name according to local tradition back in the days when Sicily is governed by Arabs from North Africa. Women who committed adultery. Were put out on that little rock and left to die and hence the town took the name from Iraq island of women. Easily delay Julie Julie Shade Lindy these saw Jodi module born in California bats. His parents Israel effeminate. We are very proud of him in. America is a big names very fast so we are very proud to know this man that he has from easily through the European correspondent of the San Francisco Chronicle Walk. I was in Sicily covering the aftermath of the assassinations of judge. Giovanni Falcone and his colleague Paulo Four Cellino and I heard from a friend who had small tile shop in easily. Dimaggio's coming to Sicily for first time to visit his village. This village that was in no way Mafia village but it had had the stamp of the Mafia's most outrageous recent act. Put upon it and publicized worldwide and They were anxious various to try their best to get out from under the shadow of that is the nation so I decided I would go over there. Does anyone here in Isa Feminine. Thi- baseball we Jubal School Schubert. No baseball year just Football red carpet is our board Joe Dimaggio and his fellow big league stars. The plane was and it was dark movie. Food and Dr Ken Changli Vice President so we got to roll the Paparazzi were there. There were thousands of flashbulbs. It looks like the Fourth of July. We got into the Chased him tight speed car chase with people trying to get a picture of job and it was like that for an entire week. We could not go anywhere without people. Found was without cameras in his face ago. Jim At don tomorrow. I made all the arrangements and I thought well. If I've got Joe Dimaggio over in Italy I can't just bring them in and bringing them out after a special projects John Salamo so we Scheduled him To throw out a pitch in the In the Rome Bologna Ballgame. Of course mind you when I sprung this on him he said to me. Why did you do that? And then when we arrived there of course he was in his element. He loved it. He was enjoying being in the dugout with all of these Italian baseball players. Of COURSE WE'RE JET. Lag Me two hours of sleep and he had to go through baseball for the professional room team which was phenomenal. The baseball Italian fans again. He went through one sixty three house on jam. Yankee Stadium series whole series hand. Joe Dimaggio throw out the first ball. Only Joe was being mobbed in Rome. Final arrangements for his visit were being made in. East La de la Feminine in order to prepare the town for his arrival. They built a reviewing. Stand are just above the fishing word. Franks of Yana. European correspondent for the San Francisco Chronicle than they'd gone out and purchased Crystal Sports Trophy. We all that recognized his accomplishments as a Qatari baseball. There were waiting for him with arms open to to know. This man was mentally moral husband. And the big champion of Baseball Baseball baseball the United States so they put flowers years. They knew that Dimaggio was. Up Muscle Joker touting the baseball in America but they had no idea really what baseball was apart from the fact that he was famous in the village for being the son of Giuseppe senior. The Joe Arose. Elliot's mother the truth of the matter. Is that demand you everywhere? In Italy was far more famous for being briefly the husband of Marilyn Monroe then. He was for being a famous baseball player. A to last year. When Johnny Manziel scamming here the town was preparing a big festival music. A lot of lights. The Sun was very yummy. Logica underneath of US jobs in order to clean the streets in the village there was a water crisis that year. This was April and there hadn't been enough winter rains and they had to divert all the water that normally into private homes into the streets so that they can clean the streets in preparation for the journalists that they were expecting in the delegation is accompanying Dimaggio from Rome. Admit nobody can take baths. My friend. Philippos Assistant kept saying. How can I meet Marilyn Monroe's husband if I haven't taken a bath they couldn't? They couldn't eat pasta either. Because you need water to boil pasta I don't think that Italian's good biologically stop eating pasta. I think that's a biological impossibility happy and eating pasta to see my Bogo but on the other foot very heavy. Jody magic waiting Joe Dimaggio. They need some more and you know we love too much pasta but they eat more than usually because they were very happy not match. Us coming here. Not Macaroni dinner is the very same dinner. That Joe Demise. Yo himself enjoys on. Man Doesn't have look village. Tell Mom to get you a package of the new view. Tony Macaroni dinner as the baggage. Pajamas your picture. Right on the front let an effeminate in order to prepare the town for his arrival fit spent on the order of twenty thousand dollars which was nearly the entire annual budget of the city council reporter Frank Viviana. They'd spend all this money and it was not just because of their pride in this child of their own Immigrants but because he's a famous a sits along the Auto Estrada that runs between Palermo and trump any on the north coast of Sicily. At precisely the point where judge falcone had been assassinated by the mafia some months before Dimaggio scheduled arrival. Almost everyone Italy could tell you where they were when falcone was assassinated. It had an electrifying effect on people throughout Italy and in particular in Sicily Alexander Stiller author of excellent Cadavers. A history of Mafia control in Italy Giovanni Falcone was a Sicilian prosecuting magistrate Who GREW UP IN PALERMO? And who again doing Groundbreaking investigations into Sicily's Cosa Nostra. He and his colleagues conducted the most wide ranging trials of Mafia figures in Italian history. It was quite a an assassination. They had hidden I don't know how many hundred pounds of under a culvert below the Auto Estrada and the judge was coming back from Rome. And he and his motorcade Went up in flames when they passed over the culvert it. It was such an enormous explosion that destroyed nearly a kilometer of the Auto Strada and What everyone saw in the photographs of this Assassination was the exit sign off the strata which read Kaci and easily defaming me so this small village which has been of no interest in the Mafia. Because it's so poor. Had BECOME WORLD. Famous SOCIETY FELL. Kony's assassination and they saw Dimaggio's visit as a way to reverse that image. We'll be right back. The kitchen sisters present is sponsored by Sikora a nutrition company that focuses on overall wellness. Starting with what you eat. Their organic ready to eat meals are made with plant based ingredients the menu of creative chefs crafted lunches and dinners changes. Weekly and it's delivered fresh anywhere in the US along with delicious meals. Sikora also has daily wellness essentials like supplements and herbal teas to support your nutrition to boost results. Try the best-selling metabolism super powder and all natural remedy for bloating weight gain and fatigue. Right now the car is offering our listeners. Twenty percent off their first order when they go to Sikora dot com slash kitchen sisters that Sikora S. A. K. A. R. A. Dot Com slash kitchen sisters to get twenty percent off your first order. Sikora dot com slash kitchen sisters in Rome the night before Joe was to leave for easily Della Femina. Joe Of the Joe Dimaggio was given the commendatore every by the president of Italy and that essentially his knighthood and after that he wouldn't attend the Italians would call a little rough dory which simply means cold but remember he's eighty. Romania had slept in thirty six hours and so everyone was concerned. And I'm a doctor neurologist than you know there's an enormous responsibility there so I said look what you call an interest to see what he says and he came to the hotel and he said look. All you need is a good night's sleep and some respite. You cannot go to Sisley tomorrow of just not the smart thing for being your age to do. Besides Joe has a pacemaker now. This was literally the eleventh hour the night before we were leaving for so engine. Raleigh and I decided that basically we could do two things we could either just simply call and explaining and cancelled or we could do what we consider to be. The right thing I I the so we called Sicily and said Look Joe can't come and the man insistently senator said in Italian. You're crazy he said this is a town of five thousand people that have spent their entire year's budget building a stone. Piazza over the water where his father used the fish called? The Piazza Dimaggio. Every street is festooned with Italian American flags. We've got the The WHO are the bagpipers from the hills banquet was invented Italy? By the way and taken to to Britain by the Romans and and he said you must send somebody so they looked around and they said well how about you and I said me can you go. He's one of our officers. It would be most appropriate for officer of the foundation to to take this role if you will plus. Ken looked a lot. More like Joe's I did. He was scheduled to arrive at ten o'clock in the morning that winter. Easy the airport for Palermo which is off just two kilometers from the village. Everyone gathered probably four thousand five hundred of the five thousand five hundred people there. Everyone dressed in their finery although read about The fact they had well the time past ten o'clock arrived Joe Ten thirty. No one knew what was going on. Finally at eleven o'clock the mirror came out of city hall looking absolutely crest. He'd received a telephone call. Joe had taken ill the night before in Rome spit up. Some blood had trouble breezy and had been promptly put into a hospital. They specifically asked me that hard at that guy said he did not have a heart attack. This someone asked me someone. Said he had an ulcer bleeding to death. I specifically said he's not pleading cold so we caught the plane down there. My goodness I'm standing at the top of the plane looking down and I wanted to get right back on that plane and Henry. Pack to Rome. Half the town without their press photographers. All over flowers ready. We knew that ninety percent of the people the lowest were expecting right behind. Us would be walking. Joe Dimaggio little. Do they know that his replacements were walking off the plane they said to myself. How are we ever going to handle this one? Some of my Sadovy Semenya Dale Watson. Visit enter the level. They might much of research shows that there were waiting like residents nine stage. They Magin Joe Dimaggio because most people resulted effeminate. Don't really him is something. Ideal would be to the innate regardless they had provided all the school children with little American flags to wave. When you arrive in the kids are being trained with bit sad. The kids have been ruled. Trained WHEN HE ARRIVED TO CHANT. English rerun. Joe. We want Joe. We wanted show so not knowing what else to do. These sturdy. Chantel rewind Joe. We chop off. I thought I was his son and we had to tell him that I was not his son and when we got there they were fifty people with television cameras all over the world looking around wondering what they they weren't sure we get into this quaint little town and we noticed that it is dressed to the hilt. Apparently the town had taken just about their tire year's budget and prepared everything for this visit of Joe Dimaggio flags on every single house going down. The street repainted. All the boats in the harbour as we walked through the narrow street town is huge. Entourage of of more than thousand people simply following us like this very long sinuous snake. I felt so sorry for job. Not being there. They took us to the church. Parents were married. The bishop of the district came bliss and it was almost like an audience with the pope versus the D job. The House of Joe Dimaggio's parents Bishop Jason. Our SHARE IN AMERICA SHOULD EMERGE. As Roma's born here. This House no hospital. Now Clinic here margin bothered the highlight of jundallah cheap Dina. That is a tour of the village was to be the house. Where Joe Dimaggio's parents I lived after they're married and before the emigrated to Martinez California the Dimaggio family even in San Francisco meet living as fisherman and presumably without the escape route of baseball. Join Dimaggio's the stayed in Sicily as GIUSEPPI DIMAGGIO. Junior would have been a fisherman like his dad as relativization. United States the Jodi my jaw by your mic USA domain cannot eat so we find a relative of Joe Dimaggio. His father and Judy Maja father enjoyed thirty. Five years. That's a works in the as a butcher incur. Bobino doing shop when we are talking last year to prepare. When Joe was not run everything was already. Everybody was waiting him. I'm very disappointed. Because they're waiting for him to Pittsburgh named for East La de la Feminists Sister City Pittsburg California on the Piazza. They Have Bank of twenty microphones and I had. My Italian is not that good and I had memorized in Italian. I wanted to tell them that. Joe Is sick and then he was very sorry that he couldn't be there. It was one of the probably the great sorrows of his life and all of the people were saying an Italian. That's okay as long as JOE'S HEALTHY. That's all we care about five thousand of them screaming. It was the most moving moment of my entirely. They felt that they had Joe. Dimaggio there by the time. They were time in fact he got done talking. Throngs of young people come up with their baseball's asking him. He signed hundreds and hundreds of balls that day. They wanted me to sign. Joe Dimaggio's name and I said I can't do that. There's no way that I could do that on the other hand. All the kids of this town wanted a baseball. That had something to do with Joe Dimaggio so I signed these. Baseball's Ken Changli for Joe Dimaggio. I'm sure it's a unique. Baseball can Changli for Joe Dimaggio joining my Jewish. Although the mayor of selecting the Feminine Bombini Abundant. This man Kam Changli like Jodi magic become very famous hearing Is Vulgar Jody? They arranged for dinner and the problem in the town was that everyone wanted to sit with your modu. This was a dinner for about three hundred people so what they did was. They took this table and they had it meander around the room. This continuous table. That just never ended. Everyone sat at the head table feeding remainder being gone right lack. Judy Majerus here the Party Gun. Well everything's gone well. Jody modules nothing here but it was like it was year anyway. Fulsome integer the orange. Well I think it was the first time that they had the opportunity to celebrate the fact that their village had in a sense produce this great American herald the most. Sit Out it. Caleb bullets the local simplicity reports about that elaborates. Nicholson it got either. Two showed defended the words that is on an effeminate Kabashi. There are people who don't want talk with Mafia but all good things and there's good deals have to fight against the assassination of Kona oversleep after the news conference. You went to the water. A fisherman happened to be coming in and I just got that that sense of timeless history for centuries those people have come in every day and we saw the unloading their nets and the fish. And I thought this is what Joe's parents or father and grandparents did. It's obvious that's where Jodi Macho came from. And that's why he is who he is. When I say it shower making sure that we still need to go get to keep the throne still waiting for him before next year. Yeah inviting Jordan. Magic to come back to his family because they are still waiting for him. Villanova growth in the this is from Ernest. Hemingway's the old man and the sea. I would like to take the Great Dimaggio Fishing Bill. Man said they say his father was a fisherman. Maybe as poor as we talk and would understand. The great sister's father was never poor and he. The father was playing in the big leagues when he was my age. When I was your age I was before the masks on a square rigged ship that ran to Africa and I have seen lions on the beach and evening. I know you told me. Should we talk about Africa or about Baseball Baseball? And think boy said I'll be back when I have the Sardines I'll keep yours and mine together on ice and we can share them in the morning. When I come back you can tell me about the baseball. The Yankees cannot lose but I feel the Indians of Cleveland. Have faith the Yankees my son? Think of the Great Domi- Joe. What do you really need a hit so here I go. Ooh John Rudd waiting for Joe. Dimaggio was produced by the kitchen. Sisters David Nelson and Nikki Silva with sound print. Our editor was Deborah. George are sound. Engineer was Robin Weiss. The old man and the sea was read by Francis. Ford Coppola Special. Thanks to the National Baseball Library Archive in Cooperstown New York and the National Italian American Foundation. The kitchen sisters present is part of Pr X. Radio took and that work of some of the most compelling beautifully produced podcasts. Thanks for listening famous street. That's not us all. He's just a man and not a free. Joe Joe Dimaggio embiid or July. The first you know since then he's hit a good twelve. More Chilton Joe Dimaggio from coast to coast. That's all you'll hear of Joe. The one man show he's blowing. The voice had Joe Joe Dimaggio Eleven. Baseball's hall of fame. He got their blow by blow. Kids will tell their kids his name joked and Joe Dimaggio big dog. We want you on ours. Speaking whispered probably stop that Joan One. Nine Cleveland Oh good battery Dimaggio. I've got some good news. This is love from the creators of criminal is back the kinds of stories. We need right now. Their fourth season is all about animals. And The wild. The family drama of rival Wolf Packs. A dog who guides is owner out of a tragedy and retired central park. Police Horse. This is Love was one of time. Magazine's top picks of the year refinery. Twenty nine says quote this is love is the warm story based podcast. Listen to when news is too much to bear. Also it's made by Lauren and phoebe and I have to say there are two of my favorite women in the world generous creative warm loving on the move you see the movie twister. Helen Hunt. Do you think this is kind? Of like twister. Hi It's phoebe. This is love is back and forth season. We're going outside and the entire iceberg that we had just been inside of was cracking and breaking and dissolving into these huge chunks of ice. I was just speechless all new stories. Starting April first about animals in the wild. And what happens when we take time to look around us? I'm really better without animals than people. You like them better. Would you rather spend your day with a horse? The Group of Guys Complain Subscribe. Now to this is love wherever you get your podcast so you don't miss the first episode and you just will. This Turkey is really trying to get this recorder Halo. We you tell me. It's going to bite scared. You'RE GONNA love this one. Take a listen search for this is love wherever you get your podcasts or visit this is love podcast dot com radio.

GIUSEPPI DIMAGGIO Joe Dimaggio Joe Ten Baseball Sicily US Joe Italy National Italian American Foun Dr Ken Changli Rome Dimaggio Judge Giovanni Falcone America San Francisco Chronicle Palermo Joe Demise Marilyn Monroe New York Yankees San Francisco
Activists And Suicide Prevention Groups Seek Bans On Conversion Therapy For Minors

NPR's Story of the Day

05:37 min | 1 year ago

Activists And Suicide Prevention Groups Seek Bans On Conversion Therapy For Minors

"Support for this podcast and the following message. Come from Fidelity Investments, taking a personalized approach to helping you grow and protect your wealth. Learn more at fidelity dot com slash wealth. Fidelity brokerage services LLC. There are now sixteen American states that banned conversion therapy practitioners aim to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity for the people who are supposed to be changed. Conversion therapy is linked to higher rates of depression and suicide which helps to explain why more than a dozen states are considering legislation to outlaw on top of the states that already have done. So one of those states, Georgia and NPR's ladle funnel went there. Peterman lives, just outside Atlanta. Vice this late she just wanted. He and his husband Monte have a dog named Hamalayan cat hollow. Peter's dining room is adorned with smiling. Pictures of his family. Is this your mom? That's my mom and Monte dancing at our wedding. But it took a lot of work in time to get to this happy place. When I was fifteen my parents found a men's workout magazine that I had and drew conclusions. They didn't talk to me about it. My dad told me we were going to go on a trip. He didn't tell me where we were going on the way there his father turned to him. He said he was going to take me to therapy center to deal with whatever weird sexual stuff I had going on. And that if it didn't work he was going to send me to military school to make a man out of me every day for two weeks. Licensed mental health professionals told him that what he was feeling was sinful, and he was broken the whole thing was focused on, you know, my attornal soul was at danger here. So at this point, I would do anything they asked me to do or believe anything they asked me to believe. So that I could be fixed a hundred percent. I wanted to be fixed. One hundred percent. Back home. He told his parents at worked, but it didn't. And he felt like a failure. When he was sixteen. He tried to take his own life while at a friend's house. I took a bunch of pills in the woods behind their house. With a note in my pocket note said God forgive me. Peter none suicide attempt after conversion therapy is all too common already LGBT youth are more likely to attempt suicide than their peers net nearly triples among those who've been through some type of counseling to change their sexual orientation. That's why Georgia state Representative Matthew Wilson is trying to pass legislation to ban it as more than a dozen other states. If passed the law would stop licensed mental health professionals from trying to change the sexual orientation or gender identity of minors is specifically asked just for hearing this year, no vote. So that we could use this year as a an educational moment to really raise awareness about the need for this. He says it's about saving. Vulnerable children. There's been an outcry not just from the victims and LGBTQ community. But from the medical professionals who say this is not medicine and not only is it not medicine, but the harm is very real. And last a lifetime. Many medical association say the practice does not work, and is harmful national organizations like the American Foundation for suicide prevention and the advocacy group that Trevor project are trying to get this legislation passed in all fifty states, but liberty counsel, a conservative Christian group that opposes LGBTQ rights wants to stop the band's Matt's Davor heads liberty council the counselors that we work with they tried to respect the wishes of the client and the client is that minor. It's not the parents, it's the client staffer says it's about an individual patients, autonomy, even if they're minors and that a ban on conversion therapy, violates the free speech. Each of counselors. There's no other area of counseling where the government has barged into the private counseling room. And this should be no exception recently, the supreme court declined to take a case that would have challenged the conversion therapy ban in New Jersey and advocates of the band say if a practice is deemed harmful or abusive to children, in other cases, the state does intervene the depth of that harm is something Greg. Lynn McDonald say they didn't understand when they found out their son. Greg junior was gay. They describe themselves as conservative Christians and were worried that their son was committing a sin. We thought the the Greg somehow miss something along the way in that. If he had someone to walk with and talk with regards to it he'd he'd see in desired, you know, to be heterosexual. So they met with the counselor about conversion therapy, which is legal. But Greg senior said if there had been a ban would be really pause to know that the two legal. To do that to a minor. It took years, but Greg inland say they realized they couldn't change their son the bible, they say teaches them to love before anybody even thinks about sending their son or daughter to one of these places they have to be so educated in understanding what this can do to your trial for the rest of their lives. What kind of pain that could bring today they say they're ashamed that they ever considered conversion therapy. And they want to be a resource for other conservative Christians who feel alone as parents of LGBTQ kids. Leyla Alden NPR news Atlanta.

Greg junior Fidelity Investments Monte Peter Atlanta Georgia services LLC NPR Peterman Lynn McDonald Leyla Alden New Jersey state Representative American Foundation Matthew Wilson Trevor project Matt One hundred percent hundred percent
A foundation-funded atrocity

Future Perfect

31:29 min | 1 year ago

A foundation-funded atrocity

"This episode is brought to you by axios on HBO quick. Smart news that's worthy of your time. Get ready for the week ahead with the biggest stories in politics, business and technology area on HBO at six pm on Sundays in June, axios on HBO what you need to know on TV streaming, and on demand. Hey, listeners this episode is about an atrocity that happened in India. Some of the descriptions might be disturbing. Imagine you live in India back in the nineteen sixties were gets out that there's going to be a kind of festival. There are people making announcements using such things as like a blow horn or like a megaphone to shout out information in heavily populated. Areas it depends on where you were, but you might find tense sometimes even larger vans, for example in people singing or dancing, or performing skits. They also had an elephant, and the elephant had these banners on both sides, which said by name is law, which means red triangle, red triangles are a symbol for family planning services. So my name is red triangle. And I bring happiness to children and noble or. These carnival, like camps were organized by the Indian health ministry, and they were designed to promote a very specific form of family planning permanent. Sterilization. So why, why was the Indian health ministry throwing sterilization carnivals part of the answer lies with one man, a man who worked for the Ford Foundation, and who thought sterilization, would help India and the world? From the vox media podcast network. This is future perfect a show about how we try to do. Good. I'm Dylan Matthews. This season. We're bringing you stories about big philanthropists, and the way that their money has changed the world. Last time, we looked at an American Foundation that reshaped American democracy. But today we're looking at an American Foundation. The reshaped Indian democracy. The Ford Foundation. This is a story about to Indian prime ministers, one very enterprising Ford Foundation staffer, and most importantly, millions, and millions of Indian citizens. It's also a story about the terrible influence that a foundation can have overseas even when it's trying its best to improve the world. You heard from Savina Balasubramoniyan. She's a sociologist and she'll come back points, but are mean guide through the story is John precaut-. Yes. So I'm a historian and I teach at Princeton in the history department. He also just wrote a book about India's biggest experiment with population control. Any of that book Jon spends a lot of time with one man. Douglas ends Binger. Douglas entering was a rural sociologist. She was kind of a plane guy in his forties. Glasses short cropped hair in nineteen fifty one Ford sent him to India to head up their office there. He thought that he would be going for a few years, not that he would stay for nineteen years in. He was the right man for the job. Here's a little more on what that job was. By the nineteen fifties. American foundations had been working internationally for decades fighting diseases fighting famine, but some foundation officials were worried they were saving too many lives. The population numbers we're going to fast India, for example, had three hundred million people and was still growing. So some officials were alarmed because of racism, they were word the world was becoming too Brown. But also, this was the Cold War fears that a big population would mean fewer resources to go around. Let's go around would mean economic unrest and economic unwrapped would mean communism. So when Douglas ends Binger gets to India populist, control is one of means things that he wants to promote, but inswing your wasn't going to waltz up to India's prime minister Joel her all Nehru and say, Yukata do population control right now. He immediately understood that since Ford was interested in promoting population control that had to be sinked with what the Indian government itself wanted. So the first thing ends mayor did was get close to the prime minister, he meet his case to narrow and two neighbors health minister saying the population control would fight poverty. The health minister told him, he could bring in some consultants to pitch her family planning ideas. So the consultants whipped up a proposal and shield enough, according to their proposal, the government of India, health, ministry establishes, a kind of a semi autonomous body or central family planning board. And I it was a broad program with education options like condoms and birth control. But when those didn't seem to be making enough of a dent in population sizes officials, changed course increasingly the program was the Secta me and sterilization. Early on the government tried to get people to come to centralize clinics where they could be sterilized. But when that wasn't working, they decided to go out to the people. That's where the master limitation camps, come in masto, does Asian camp was really sort of a catchall a word for a number of different approaches to promote and conduct sterilization, operations amongst hundreds and sometimes thousands of residents. If a given area. A lot of these camps involved skits and songs, the told a story about two families one family, chooses, sterilization, one family dozen in the family. The chooses sterilization is shown as much happier. Economically, much better off. This is very very prominent storyline. These week long events were pretty makeshift. Especially in the rural areas or the operated at a tencent vans. So the events often focused on men, it's easier and less invasive to do of a Secta me on a man than to permanently sterilize a woman and again, this was an Indian project, but Douglas ends Binger. The Ford Foundation the Rockefeller Foundation in other international partners, had a deep deep influence. For example, the consultants, we mentioned are advising the health minister on using these mobile vans, sending out field hospitals in the consultants encouraged the Indian government to serve providing incentives, circuiting people, a little money or o'clock, or clarified butter in exchange for sterilization. They thought that, you know, people were not educated enough to understand the value of a small family and just educating them would dig a longtime. So the policies had to move towards inducing them through incentives and punishing them through disincentives. So the Ford foundation's role was just promoting and giving these ideas to the officials and the officials were only too happy to implement them. The Ford Foundation. Consultants, also encourage the Indian health ministry to start sitting quotas in the different states. A target number of sterilizations that each state should get to in a year. It went up from like one point three million to three point one billion. I wanna pause for a second because these are staggering numbers. While it's hard to know exactly how many people were sterilized during the stretch between the nineteen fifties in the mid nineteen seventies, one estimate put the total close to fourteen million. But in a country of three hundred million that wasn't going to stop population growth. Ends Mingo nights in nineteen sixty nine a letter to the health minister saying that the number of the not good enough, and, you know, the ministry has to make more concerted efforts, and then there is another report that I saw in the Ford archives which around the same time in speculates on compulsory standardization and says, wouldn't it be nice if the government would undertake a policy of compulsive sterilization, because the voluntary sterilization is not working. The people writing that report kind of got their wish douglaston Zwinger left India in nineteen seventy but the sterilization infrastructure that ends being her in the Ford Foundation deliberately helped fund an imagine and put in place that infrastructure stayed behind. All they had to do was to ratchet up by a few notches. By the nineteen seventies, India had a new prime minister Indira Gandhi. She had a popular anti-poverty platform, but he also had a lot of political enemies. Those enemies called her election into question. Seventy five accord invalidated her victory and barred her from political office for six years. But her son came up with an interesting solution. He kept saying, you know, forget all these constitutional proprieties and you should declare a nationally -mergency. She followed his advice on June twenty-fifth nineteen seventy five a national emergency was declared. During the emergency Indira Gandhi through thousands of her political opponents in jail, and then she had free rein to do what she wanted and she wanted to fight poverty. She thought two big ways to do it. Demolishing slums in ratcheting up the sterilization program, but the government had already put in place, people said in the gun, these slogan off, removing poverty transmogrify into a program of removing the poor so remove the poor from their slums demolish them. And then apply the knife on the poorest bodies. We see an intense scaling up of the scope and extent of mastered ization camps in the nineteen sixties the carbon had started rounding up leprosy into perky lose patients and sterilizing them, but that was stepped up during the emergency. In addition, these mobile vans, and police would go in roundup beggars at railway stations and bring them to these field, hospitals and standardize them individual police officers as well as. As squadrons of police officers. Oftentimes being tasked with corralling people and forcing them into the back of a van, for example, to be taken to a master and ization Cam, and then she'd ease of regulations that will pass by the state governments included teams like schoolteachers would not get the promotion or would be transferred, unless they were standardized, then really passengers who were caught travelling without tickets would be caught up and sterilized and the state of Bihar, the poorest state in, in India took the prize for cruelty. They passed a law saying that families with more than three children, would not get rations in their food shops, so they could go hungry and starve and die, if they didn't get sterilizations for many reasons. Many of these camps were not adequately staffed all were staffed by insufficiently trained personnel. They would oftentimes use the same instruments to operate on different people without sterilizing those instruments in one new eight billion people were sterilized. This comes from an estimate made in nineteen seventy nine some put the number of men sterilized a bit closer to six point two million in any case millions and millions of people underwent, permanent sterilization, operations in a single year. Eventually though the emergency ended about twenty one months after it began Indira Gandhi called for elections in nineteen seventy seven the standardization campaign emerges as really the chief campaign off the opposition. Indira Gandhi loses. I'm so population control and masculinization camps the becomes something that the new central government explicitly disavows the family planning program and standardization become the defining emblems off the emergency student. Today, there are still family planning efforts in India and those efforts include sterilization, but on a different scale. The emergency is seen rightfully as an atrocity. And in fact, in daily, you know, the name for the emergency in the anthropologist found they would call it NAS bandicoot time not the time of emergency that time of the Secta me. After the break, how the stance of Ford and other foundations has dramatically changed in the decades since the emergency, and what we can learn from this history. Axios on HBO is back for another season of quick, smarten news. Join leading axios journalists as they break down. The biggest stories from exclusive interviews at the White House to reviewing conversations with tech leaders and get ready for the week ahead this essential documentary series combines in depth interviews and breaking news to explore the collision of tack, politics and business, and the ways they're shaping our future, to net the extra noise and tune into axios on HBO at six pm on Sundays, this June, axios on HBO what you need to know on TV streaming, and on demand. Hi, I'm every woman, and I'm hosting curbs new podcast. Nice, try it stories about how people have tried to design a better world. And what happens when those designs don't go according to plan season. One is called utopian. And it's about the perpetual search for the perfect place. It includes cannibalism, fascist architecture, poly-amorous, hermetically, sealed domes and Courtney Kardashians dining room chairs, but not necessarily in that order, new episodes of nice, try come out every Thursday. Subscribe for free on apple podcasts or in your favorite podcast app. Welcome back to future perfect and the first half of the show, we focused on population control. In one country. India, we looked at one fundation Ford worked with the Indian government to create masturbation camps. But there were other foundations working with Ford in India in the fifties and sixties and seventies John D Rockefeller, the third friends since John D Rockefeller. The third was actually one of the first people who said, we need to work on population control. The biggest players in population would all meet every year. Rockefeller's estate in Bellagio Italy talking through ways to bring down the total number of humans on the planet. So you have to imagine. You know, Merrick is far and away the world's leading power wealthy. Americans are setting the gender worldwide. Matthew Connolly wrote an entire book about the international project to control population sizes, he tackles deeply racist in inventions, like the one in India and also the many, many projects to control women's bodies, and reproductive rights. Matthew says that around the nineteen seventies people were starting to see that all these family planning projects weren't really doing much to reduce for Tilleke rates. They felt this responsibility for the future of the world in these fancy Balaj meetings. There was talk of more radical measures measures focused on incentivizing permanent. Sterilization, like in India, there was even talk about helping people determine the sex of their fetuses. So they could choose to abort girls. But around the same time we oppressed. We are exploiting. We down the civil rights movement was in full swing from now to seventy two is going to be such a wonderful year for kicking ass and taking names in the feminist movement was surgeon. With. Great. Rides there, his kids. Ever. So slowly. This culture shift was seeping into the foundations, the entire cause of promoting family planning was something that was beginning to be seen as a western plot something being posed on poor countries by the early nineteen seventies Rockfeller himself felt that there was something wrong. And in fact, he felt that needed to find someone who had an outside perspective who could come in and tell him what it was. All them are missing. And so he hired John Dunlop. I was looking at the funk for the city of New York, I think, and received a mysterious phone call June to give long oral history of her experiences before she died in two thousand twelve the phone call. She's remembering here was an invitation to have lunch with someone from the Rockefeller Foundation. I. Oh, I'll find that lunch kicked off a very long job interview process took five months in many, many conversations later. Joan Dunlop learned why the wait was so long. The reason makes it very clear that the feminist movement had not really changed the culture at the Rockefeller Foundation by the nineteen seventies, my hair, dye, flunked and Jaydee didn't was worried about that. It was too flashing. Gbi are is John D Rockefeller, the third in the end he hired her despite her hair, but hired he said to me one day I was sitting in his office and. Connection paintings. He said the frame is really important, and you have a very pretty face. But the frame of your hair is not right to your face just when you think about this. I mean, not central harassers, exactly. But, you know, it was an issue that in the nation never would've had a dead to say, anything Dunlop changed, her hair and Rockefeller gave her a task. He said, take a year and go around and go to meetings, and Mr. people and tilling think wrong. So she went to meetings, and it was very hard not to feel repulsed because women were being treated as audits and and means to an end the saying of the rising birth rate, and the way to detect is technology through the women of the coil and women's lives. And why would we had children all what the rationale fully to what they? Belt or whatever. Consents never came into at ill. And I felt the basis of his field. I was palpable. And also, I hope that himself to be innocent. Curiously people did not understand what they were saying what the what the values implied. June sits in on these meetings. She starts meeting with women at other foundations. They're seeing and hearing the same problems she is. And then I went back to draw said the problem. This is the poll. The field is shot through with unintended sexism, racism, I don't even think the style paper because I was too frayed of it. A lot of controversial feller was going to be speaking of big international population conference. So Dunlap and others they start working on the language for Rockefeller speech, a speech, they would basically say, population work needs to change dramatically. What is it like, when Mr. delivered the speech, what was it like being home? Is jammed. They were in a lecture hall with a couple of balconies, there were lots and lots of police for security, and it was hot and we will hide except apparently, JD are very, very calm and sort of not detached Amita, but cuts to it was about throw. I think he must've. John D Rockefeller. The third one of the first big pushers population control anywhere got up in front of this hall full of people who really thought that population control with save the planet, and he said, basically, we've been doing this all wrong for many years. A sense of urgency caused me to concentrate on the family planning approach no audio recording exists from the event, but the text of the speech was published in population studies journal yet, the evidence has been mounting, particularly in the past decades to indicate that family planning alone is not adequate, what we need is affected, and humane action, and this can come only by assessing our experience. Deepening, our understanding and ensuring that the means we choose are fully consistent with the goal of a better life for all. And we know it reads like powder them. It was totally. It seems very, very tame but it was not pablum then not bland accepted wisdom. Some people Jones says, usually people from developing countries came up to her afterwards, and we're excited. They're happy to be moving or trying to move away from racist ideas about population targets and women as vehicles. But from the population establishment. Co-signed says they I'm not sure that the clapped. Matthew Conway says this felt like a betrayal. These population establishment, people were worried that if they spent money on improving maternal and public health, which just be wasted and population sizes, just keep growing. Remember, they wanted to go more radically down the path they'd already been going down? They wanted more places to try big compulsory sterilization programs. And Rockefeller was saying, I don't think that makes sense and it really had an impact because until then Rockfeller really seem to represent this, very strong consensus, one second, census was broken not just with this speech, but with the founding of new organizations with new research the field of population programming straight to move toward a very, very different consensus. When that looks a lot more like what foundations do today, they focus a lot more on reproductive rights and women's empowerment? Trying to expand the agenda to take on other public health issues, including sexually transmitted disease, but also issues like sex education also access to abortion, all these things that have been set aside or forgotten in the period in which population controllers were only focused on one thing reducing population growth. There's also efforts to help women stay in school longer and increase the overall health and wellbeing of children and adults. But I want to be very clear things are not perfect resolved. John D Rockefeller and Joan Dunlop, or to white people in positions of power, helping to create family planning policies, albeit more empowering ones for people with less power living in other countries, and to this day, Matt Yukon. We says we should've valuate population programming efforts, very carefully. Yes, there's this more positive twist on them, but they're still very focused on helping people have fewer children. And so if you ask organizations in the field, do you accept that reproductive rights means empowering people to have the families that they want? They will say, yes, absolutely. But then if you ask them, well, what is your organization doing in the field of infertility say, there are several African countries, for example, where the infertility rate is really high. So couples not able to have children who desperately light to have children. And these were gonna stations the great majority of them are really doing little if anything for infertility. In other words, helping people gain, reproductive rights can't just mean helping them to not have children. It should also mean helping them have children if they want them. I think we should be careful of looking at someone like Rockefeller, as this hero, who swooped in to turn things around and population programming. John D Rockefeller. The third was working to fix a problem. He helped create in the first place. He's found Asian in the Ford Foundation went into other countries worked with the governments there and created population programs with dramatic and sometimes horrifying results. One theme of this whole season is how do we wrestle with the power that individuals like Rockefeller and foundations like Ford have when intervening overseas? Yes. So that question of what do we do about problems that are transnational in nature, the cross boundaries, and our global in scope, like, how do we cope with those kinds of problems that the international system, such as it is, isn't really designed to deal with that is the big problem of not just now the twentieth century. But our century to sure we're no longer worried that the Indian people are all going to turn into communists, but we are very worried about other real global problems things like climate change, or pandemic disease and nuclear proliferation. These are problems that we have to solve global way in the foundations understandably also wanna work on. And yet, we don't really have the institutional capacity to address them. In a way that ensures democratic accountability. This isn't an easy problem to solve the normal way we organize our politics is through the government preferably. A democratic government. And there's just nothing like that, that can cover the whole world in tackle big challenges, like climate change, and for. That can make it easy for foundations to step in and say, look, no one else's fixing this, but we can sometimes we'll want that I personally want foundations to do more to fight climate change to prevent a big pandemic from killing millions of people, but one thing, the emergency should teach us is that when you're making grants from afar. It's easy for people to start looking like numbers for mothers and fathers to turn into targets and quotas for reducing poverty to turn into getting rid of poor people. That distance between the Ford Foundation in the Indian people in between Indira Gandhi, and her own citizens. It enabled unimaginable crimes one thing we can learn from this history is that going forward. We should try to be less distant and a little closer to the actual people whose lives are changing. Teacher perfect is produced in core pretty by bird, Pinkerton, our is amateurs. Dasa senior producer is Julian Weinberger. We're mixed by Jared Paul affecting was done by Laura board. I music by APM in Chris sqi, Noam Hassenfeld is the voice of John D. Rockefeller things to the FIA Smith collection at Smith College for the audio of Joan Dunlop, it's taken from their population, and reproductive health history project things to Walker and others at the Ford Foundation for useful conversations about the foundations history. Future. Perfect is made possible through grant from the Rockefeller Foundation treed more of our reporting on altruism. Check out FOX dot com slash future. Dash perfect. This episode was brought to you by axios on HBO in a saturated news landscape. It can be hard to tune out. The extra noise actually delivers quick smart breakdown of the stories that matter most so you can be ready for the week ahead joined leading journalists dive into politics tech, and business and bring, you exclusive interviews, in-depth analysis, the focus on the policies in people that matter, most catch new episodes of axios on HBO at six pm on Sundays in June axios. What you need to know on demand.

India Ford Foundation John D Rockefeller Ford Rockefeller Foundation HBO Indira Gandhi Indian health ministry prime minister American Foundation Indian government Joan Dunlop Binger Douglas vox media population studies journal Dylan Matthews Rockfeller Princeton
Huawei is doing just fine without the US

Marketplace Morning Report with David Brancaccio

07:09 min | 1 year ago

Huawei is doing just fine without the US

"In Mexico says it was blindsided by some details in the NAFTA deal with the marketplace morning. Report in Austin Texas. I'm Andy you went in for David. brancaccio atop Mexican trade negotiator flew to Washington on Sunday to talk about the US dispatching permanent representatives to Mexico as part of this trade deal. They'd be sent to monitor Labour conditions. Julia Coronado auto is founder of macro policy perspective. Julia Mexico came back and said that the US sort of blindsided them with these new labor accountability rules but Labor has been such an important in part of all this. What do you make of it? It's hard to know whether that was a last minute. Change or something that with more fundamental to the negotiations shen that has been the Labor negotiations and the Labor contingencies have been absolutely central to the entire negotiation so it is surprising using that there is this aspect of it that was a surprise to the Mexican government. Okay so I'll stick to trade but this time with another one of those major partners. USC USC goes out this weekend. They were talking about phase one they were talking it up of the. US China deal. But it doesn't feel like we have much clarity at all and we also so have no official word yet from the Chinese. What do you make of that? We are just sort of waiting for details and the details are going to matter. So there's lots of marketing marketing going on from the administration. We do know that at a minimum. It appears that they're not going to impose tariffs on December fifteenth. which is a big deal? Those would have been very damaging to consumers but beyond that we really don't know much Julia Coronado founder of macro Palsy perspectives. Juliette thank you so much for doing this. My Pleasure Eh. Suicide rates in the United States have been rising over the last decade in almost every state according to the Centers for Disease Control. Now the federal government wants to make it easier for the people in need to ask for help by switching the suicide prevention hotline from a one eight hundred number two nine eight eight marketplace's Kimberly Adams has more the the Federal Communications Commission unanimously approved. A proposal to US nine eight for the hotline. But that's just one step in the process. Robert Gabia is CEO CEO of the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. So if you make it easier to haul by having a three digit number you WanNa make sure that you're building the infrastructure the capacity to answer those calls the FCC estimates setting up the new system would cost almost seven hundred and fifty million dollars including new equipment for some phone companies. He's plus a national advertising campaign. John Draper leads the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline and says call centers would probably need more staff as well. Do you consider there to be a lot. More calls a lot higher public expectation so we would really need to have all of that factor in factored would into new funding. That Congress has yet to approve in Washington. I'm Kimberly Adams for marketplace. This new number is not of running just yet if you are in distress call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one hundred two seven three eight two five five Marketplace helps you answer questions you've always wondered about and now that includes finding out more about how how and why we do what we do every day become a marketplace investor today and you'll get exclusive access to a series of Virtual Ama's featuring molly would IRAS. Paul David Brancaccio. Don't miss out on our twenty twenty asked me anything. Series contribute sixty dollars or sign up to donate five dollars a month at market marketplace dot Org and thank you remember the Chinese telecom giant the US government considers spying threatened and sanctions. Violator at company is number one in wireless network year in the world number-two in smartphone sales. It's also on an American blacklist cut off from US suppliers. Get seven months after that. I happen the company's on track to make a hundred billion dollars this year and it's showing no signs of slowing down as marketplace's Scott Tong reports. Here's a metaphor. For Hallway. Soviet fighter jet from World War Two riddled with bullets and yet still flying for months posters of this image of appeared at the company headquarters in China that image of the riddled fighter jet. It's a call to put in that extra effort that's vice the president. Tim Dunks at his company's Holiday Party. In New York there was no partying in May when the US government blacklisted while way for allegedly violating UN sanctions actions that cut the company off from US suppliers the same punishment that almost sank another Chinese tech firm Z.. T. While we recognized a a few years ago with certain actions against Another Chinese company that we needed to take some additional steps to put our plan B. So to speak into Action Action Plan B.. Meant no more. Relying on American ships considered the world's best in making them in house semiconductor analyst. Linley Gwinnett is with the Linley Group. In some cases I would say Chinese products are not at the same quality level the. US suppliers are providing but the Chinese companies. He's one to at least have song backup supply while we also bought components from non-american firms in Japan and Europe and says tech analyst. Dan Wong Gab. Cal held reaganomics in Beijing. It exploited a loophole and sanctions allowing them to buy. US chips made abroad. We has been very creative in trying to use is legal. Work arounds. Commerce Secretary Will Ross suggests there's illegal activity that way is nudging US suppliers to manufacture offshore to evade the sanctions but while he's plan B. Seems to be working. It's new phone. The mate thirty which may have the best battery and camera in the business has zero American innards. It has definitely definitely surprise- industry has really surprised me right. After the entity list. That's nation. I had expected the Hollywood to fold. He calls this hallway sputnik but nick moment. The company's revenues are up twenty four percent over last year. Things aren't perfect though for instance hallways android. Phones can't include the Google play store for APPS APPS again vice president. Thanks this has been a very challenging test. I think it's probably one of the biggest test we faced perhaps not the last one the Commerce Department Muniz considering cutting off away from even more. US chips even those made abroad yet. Another bullet aimed at this riddled warplane. I'm Scott Tong for marketplace replace the annual UN climate summit route close in Madrid with no agreement on new emissions targets presiding official said quote the new generation. Expect more from us. There's a Greta does at least in Austin Texas. I'm an Euler with the marketplace morning report from A._P._M.. American public media.

US federal government National Suicide Prevention Li Julia Coronado Austin Texas Federal Communications Commiss American Foundation for Suicid Washington Kimberly Adams Scott Tong Mexico founder Julia Mexico vice president UN Paul David Brancaccio China USC official Centers for Disease Control
Normalizing Emotion (with Joe Gerstandt)

Midlife Mastery

34:14 min | 2 d ago

Normalizing Emotion (with Joe Gerstandt)

"As a quick intro. i. I'm actually not sure where to start with this episode. I think this is a very very important topic. Joker stand is the guest. And he and i have a a conversation. That's really about normalizing emotion and normalizing how we process in how we think about how we talk about emotion especially for middle aged men and some of the loneliness the isolation the feeling alone in an all of our problems. If we're not able to do that as well as a whole laundry list of reasons. We might not be able to do that. We might not be good at that. Going both to to skill set to core pieces of masculine identity to just opportunities for those conversations for thinking about talking about and processing and we get into into mental health as well. Now i will say that either of mental health professionals and really this is just from the point of view of two guys in their fifties thinking about life and thinking about where they are in the world and so it is a very generalized conversation. This does not apply to everybody but as we look around and think about maybe some of the trends that we are seeing and thinking about what would You know our own lives are friends. Lives that that the people that we see around us and anyway it's a great conversation. I think it's very important conversation. I'd love to hear your thoughts and your feedback. And of course you can always respond on instagram or or simply email at midlife mastery. Podcasts you mail dot com. I would love to to hear some. Maybe some of your thoughts on the topic and Yeah let's go from there. Let's get started all right. So today's guest is joker stand and very excited to have joe on known joe for for several years now and joe. Joe thinks deeper about things than most of us. Doing so joe. I'm excited benefit from your thoughts and your wisdom today and but let me ask how do you. How do you introduce yourself gosh. I don't know that. I have a a solid answer to that. It kind of depends on where. I'm mad at what i'm doing. My name's joe gerston. I live omaha nebraska. I have two kids. I'm self employed in For living i basically do workplace diversity and inclusion work fifty two year old straight white male mantorras. How's that that enough furniture. That that kind of sums it up. Maybe yeah so. Nothing wrong with being a taurus. In fact that's probably the best you know. If you're going to go by astrological signs all would agree so Yeah and you know not what we're talking about today. But i always loved the You know i've heard you introduce yourself that way before similar. You know straight white male doing diversity work. What got you interested in. Diversity in diversity work itself There's not a short easy simple answer to that. But i'll try to try to sum it up. I think what what really made it happen. Was i went out into the world and bumped into people that were different that i was and we're having different experiences and Sometimes i was able to learn from those people sometimes. They helped me learn from my mistakes. And i just. I eventually came to see that. Everybody was experiencing this country this community the workplace the same way that i was And that i had some obligation to to do some work around that i guess is as my best attempt at a short answer. All right well. I you know i think it fits this conversation especially the not. Everyone experiences life. Though the way i experienced live the way you experienced life and we're all facing different things raw facing different challenges and as we're talking about before i hit record here one of the things that i'm i'm a little fascinated by right now. Is that well. you know. There's so many people over fifty and yet there's like no instruction on how to do this phase of life. Well that i've come across any way out there and yet it's a period of life that it feels like it would really benefit from some instruction and some some thoughts on how to approach it because I don't know there's just so much going on. You know when. I think of changes just in midlife kind of the laundry list i have. Is you know friends and family die. You know we start getting older people we know. Start passing away. We we drift apart from people that we knew we get busy People are having different experiences. You know i. I have friends who are retiring at fifty. I have friends who are not retiring either because they have no interest in it or just not going to happen in their world. You know they will. They will work till the day they die. People move people change jobs. People split up they move apart. You know when you're young you have friends as individuals and then when you get married you have friends is a couple and then but couple split and there's just a lot of change that i mean we think about change affecting the young but i don't think we think about change affecting midlife and joe when the reasons i every shout to you and excited about having you on is you had a post about just kind of this. Well it is more not a simple thing. It was mental health. It was loneliness it was connection. And i wanna talk about that because that seems kind of like a big thing that affects a lot of us. I think it is. I think it's a. It's a huge thing i think In a covert has made it a even a much. Bigger thing it's it's amplified. Some underlying dynamics. What one of the first time. I came across someone. That was kind of talking about this issue. You're dressing there's a book called. I think it's called failing upward and it's written by richard rohr and I found that book at the right time of my life. And i think a friend recommended to me but he kind of i think this was the first place i heard it. But he kind of makes the point that sh- there is some support instruction and some guidance for the first half of your life and and that's a pretty busy half right you start your career you start. Maybe a family for people to do that. You buy a house in. You're busy with that stuff. And then you get that stuff behind. You and a lot of people aren't really intentional about. So what is the rest of my life going to be like. If i'm not chasing career if i'm not chasing status family those kinds of thanks But i think for me At this point in my age things like relationships community and connection have come top of mine and partially because of some of the changes that you mentioned. And i think the posts he referring to i talked about the fact that in the past two years i had a marriage that ended and i lost my father to suicide two pretty big changes and One of the things that that that stuff kind of made me aware of was that i think this is true of a lot of men and not exclusively men but i think it's true of a lot of men. Don't have a lot of Really honest candid conversation where you can. I don't think men are as good at getting together. And saying i'm lonely. I'm scared i'm hurting. I don't think there is good at saying those things to each other as many women are And i think there are consequences to that. I i was kinda shocked to discover that suicide rates are the highest among men my age and older and An and i wouldn't have assumed that on my own. But i but i probably should have. I actually know a number of men that have that have ended their lives but it was for some reason it was. It was counterintuitive to me. And there's i've come across a number of of articles and studies about how things like loneliness and depression. Depression and violence and suicide are kind of spiking among middle aged men and older. And i think you know you. You layer kovin and quarantine in isolation on top of that. And i think we we probably have a mental health crisis that we're not even fully aware of across gender and age and demographic groups in this country. I think it's been hard on people in a lot of different ways. But i think i think you're spot on. I think there's a lot of unaddressed issues in there. In one of the things for me is is i think we need to do a better job of of men talking to men about this stuff and and having relationships and i'm not saying we can't still have beers together and talk about football and all that stuff but like emotion is a real thing we have emotional needs. We need to be able to process an express those emotions and if if we can't do that in her friendships you know. I'm afraid there's not a lot of other places we can do that. And if if you don't express that stuff if you don't process it it if you just swallow it or deny it. I don't think it just goes away. I think that stuff gets malignant. I think that's why you have. Things like depression and violence and suicide. In a few days ago we saw some crazy stuff happened in this nation's capital. And i think that's another way that this stuff manifest Diagnose some people. I've never met. That's problematic but i think some of those angry men we saw. I think they are lonely disconnected and they've bought into a fictional movement with a fictional leader. Because i think it's giving them a sense of community in the sense of purpose site. I think the underlying things that we're talking about manifest in a lot of ways but they're all negative negative and i think there's i think this is a pretty big chunk of work and if we don't address it sorry i'm talking a lot but if we don't address it i think we're gonna see more and more negative consequences because it's not exclusively a male thing but i think i think it's more prevalent among men than it is among women and i think part of that is about what we teach people about being women and what we teach people about being a man. You know i. I've as i look around in. I think you're spot on there about the idea of you know we need community. We need sense of purpose. And if that's missing people find it somehow somewhere they they seek it out. And they find it in the internet's made that really possible and that's one of the awesome things about the internet. One of the things. I love you and i are connected because the internet exists and yet it doesn't always work out well We we don't always connect with the right folks but you know even just a couple of thoughts. Come to my because and i'm basing this off social media. This is a very skewed limited sample size. But as i look around especially when we think about over fifty i see communities for women over fifty like cheering cheering each other on coming together celebrating life. I don't come across any of those for men At at all and Maybe i haven't found that corner of the internet yet. You know. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. But it isn't as prevalent and i've also been told that you know kind of for many women and you know i hate to over generalize but i you know once the kids are moved out. There's almost a sense of being able to focus on self that it's never been there before and i've never seen that addressed for men and i'm not trying to make this discussion solely about men. It's just what i'm experiencing. I know it's what you're experiencing and saying. Yeah yeah and so but you also mentioned that it runs deep. Some of it is societal expectations. Just what we're taught because when you talk about saying you know i'm lonely. I'm scared i'm hurting yet. From my experience. That's something guys generally don't say to each other right right. I have a few. I have a few male friends that i can have those kinds of conversations with And you probably know who some of those guys are most of the friendships. That i have that are very candid in very authentic and very safe and very supportive. Most of those friendships are actually with women I i just think. And i don't think it's something like in mail dna. But i think it's it's largely what we're taught a growing up as boys and girls. I was taught at a very young age. That emotions were at best in extraction. And i was taught that my father i quit that point in my life was almost the voice of god so i had no reason to doubt that and i tried to live that way for a long time and i would say there are profound and negative consequences to trying to live that way as much as we don't like them as much as they are maybe inconvenient like emotions are real in as i said earlier. If you deny them if you'd known them if you swallow them. I think that all leads to very very bad things and i think that one of the differences in how we perform gender or teach gender is It's much safer in easier. Unexpected for Girls and women to express their emotions. It's different for men. Like men can express a couple of emotions. Like anger can be angry. I can be horny. I can be confident other than that like. That's about it. I certainly can't be sad. I certainly can't be lonely. I certainly can't cry. I think it's getting better but you know when most boys cry. Someone is going to tell them that. Boys don't cry a lot of times. They're told that by a male of you know father figure or role model and an in like. I don't think those people are trying to do evil things. I think you know. They're they're just going on these traditional expectations. But i think like. I said i think are profound consequences to those messages regardless of where they come from and regardless of what the intentions behind moammar. Certainly i mean we're we're going to have emotion and not being not knowing how to process. It doesn't seem like a good life skill and and yet as you also mentioned. No one's really teaching us how to process them or talk about so when it's guys not having many male friends they can talk to about that in. I don't know that there's one right answer but is that just. Is that competition. Like i don't want to admit weakness to someone else is it. I just don't know how to talk about weakness with someone else. I think it's probably some of both of those things I think it's probably some of those again. If you've if drawing up you did express emotion and someone told you to get back in your box or your man box. Like i think i think that becomes pretty deeply. Ingrained you you. You don't have a very healthy relationship with emotions. You don't see emotions as a good thing you don't like reflecting on them. You're not used to sharing them You're you're fearful of sharing them around other men because that might put your manhood or your masculinity or toughness in jeopardy. I think all of those things play a role in it and you know. I think i've done quite a bit of work in the past couple of years. But i'm a fifty two year old man i would say i'm like maybe a thirty year old emotionally and a couple of years ago i was like probably twelve year old emotionally just because i was taught that stuff wasn't good and so i turned it off and denied it swallowed it for most of my life and i'm playing catch up in again. This is not true of all men. I know men that have tremendous emotional intelligence and they're very sincere and authentic and they don't have a problem with vulnerability but in general. I don't think this is something. That men are good at. And i think i. I don't think you can separate that from male violence and mail suicide and depression that i don't think you can separate the two. I think they're i think they're part of the same thing on especially when when we were growing up when we were learning how to process this stuff. I mean you know that was a different era. Might our sons are learning something different. now hopefully And i i would agree that you know. What i was taught was not out of anyone trying to do me harm. But that was the way to succeed at least what was perceived as the way to succeed and and we also know how tough it is to learn something new once. We're no longer kids like taking on a language now is really difficult compared to you know when you're seven and just learning language anyway It's much easier just learning language. This is part of your identity right part of your identity if an important part of your identity as being a man and you've got these beliefs about what it means to be a man you've had them for thirty or forty or fifty years. This is this is no small thing. that we're talking about and and You know i. I've been kind of noodling on this quite a bit for the past two years i. I don't know what the solution is. I think there's probably a lot of solutions. But i think at the very heart of it is is men coming together and having different kinds of conversations with each other but there's there's gotta be some openness to that and and even there i think there's a lot of folks that That aren't open to it. That aren't resistant to it. And so i don't know. I think it's kind of hard to think about how to reach out to those folks sometimes. Yeah so i mean so you. I mean i was thinking just so if i haven't learned this it's harder to learn now have less experience. I tried to learn it now. Even though i know it's important that's hard but i but you also mentioned that just a skill it's an identity piece yield. That's much different. Picking up a new skills just new skill. I learned something. But changing how i think of myself as a person to end the values that i think make me successful. That's a little harder harder to and i think there's a lot of people you know when we talk about identity stuff. There's a lot of people say well it doesn't matter you're a man or woman i don't care about that and i think the reality is that in our culture in our society. Those gender norms and gender expectations are so deeply ingrained. I think a lot of that stuff. We pass on without even thinking about it like do you. Do you buy blue. Blows or pink clothes for your baby like. That's that's automatic. It happens without even thinking about what kinds of toys we buy for children automatic. Like no thinking involved in it but it sends all of these messages in. It's connected to these expectations and you know when it's something that starts that early on i think again it becomes for a lot of people very very deeply ingrained. Having the emotional intelligence having the skill set not just the intelligence but the skill set to have these conversations to reach out also at a time where i suspect we have fewer and fewer people around us. Who would we know well enough to reach out to. Or i guess maybe the people we do know that such an established relationship that maybe that wouldn't work like the relationship doesn't work way and yet in i. I sure what my question is joe. I guess i'm trying to process all that. We're talking about here like that. That sounds very daunting. And and maybe maybe. The solution is more more friends who aren't mail. You know what more people more friends who aren't like cussing It's easier to talk about things that are different was someone who's you know doesn't have the same wiring in the same life experience that that we have I don't know. I think there's i think there's a few different layers to it. One of the things. That i didn't do you talked about those two halves of life and earlier in my life when i was a young professional and i was kind of starting off. I had very active. Social life had lots of friends. I had different groups of friends. And then you know i got really busy. I started a business. I started a family. It was buying a house and my social life really kind of atrophy. Just didn't do a good job of staying that now. Some of those friends are still there and some of them will always be there but the number of relationships that i had was greatly diminished Over the next ten or fifteen or twenty years in. So i didn't have as many people around me i also didn't have Some of the right kinds of relationships. And i don't think every relationship you have every friendship you have is going to be a big deep. Profound laughed together. Cry together relationship but for sure you need some of that in your life and and maybe it's not even friends. Maybe it's a therapist another I think everybody should have a therapist. Tonight this is another place that a middle aged men are pretty resistant to that idea. Over generalizing a little bit but in my experience pretty distant. That idea whether it's a therapist whether it's a faith leader whether it's a friend whether it's a anonymous stranger I think Even if it's just sitting down being able to sit down with your self journal and reflect on your feelings also a skill set. I don't think a lot of people have. I think that stuff is so incredibly important but But if you go thirty or forty or fifty years of your life without doing it as you kind of mentioned it's it's pretty daunting it's almost a foreign language That we're talking about again. A lot of these things aren't seen as strong tough manly things In some of that is changing. But i think some of those pretty strong stereotypical expectations are still there. I think part of it. I think we all have an opportunity to teach boys different things into role model. Different things About feelings about friendship and about ways to express and process emotions. I think the media is something that plays a role There's a lot of different pieces to it But i think you know. What are the things that you and i could do as we can try to you know. Try to make sure that we're showing up A certain way with our male peers and inviting some of those conversations and showing some of that vulnerability and even if even when you know. It's good it's still. It's still a hard thing to do. But i think on the more people that are exposed to probably the better i. It might my head's kind of spinning here. You know on one hand. It sounds like so impossible. Just everything we we've laid out here and on the other hand it's a conversation like we've we've all had conversations that that is not a foreign skill set We've all built friends friendships and relationships. And you know as you mentioned. It doesn't even have to be as tough is finding going out and finding a new best friend. I mean you know you mentioned therapy. Faith leader sitting quiet with journal. Kind kind of trying to process And i you know. I i guess it doesn't have to be a deep dive immediately. These conversations come out over time. Doesn't even you know even just paying attention to relationships that you already have the video post that you mentioned earlier. Kind of the point. I was trying to make. Was that for almost the entire year before my father took his life. I was thinking about mental health for men. It had never occurred to me to have that conversation with my father. Just like it never occurred to me that he was crisis And i think you know there's help out there and a lot of say positive things about asking for help. Some people aren't going to ask for help. And i think that if we just do a better job of of sharing our own story and making it safe for people to engage in that conversation that might have a pretty profound impact there and it's hard to talk about the times when you've been lonely when you've been sad when you've lost hope but i think it again. I think it's actually good for you to process that in in might just let someone else know that they're not the only one might give them example of what talking about saying out loud in public loneliness is like Even if it's that you know sharing a little bit of your own experience in your existing relationships i think you never know what the ripple effects of that might be. Because i think what you know what i've come to believe. Is that everybody in our circle in our lives. There are some people that look fine on the outside but are not signed on the inside and so just making normalizing this conversation making a as easy for them to enter as possible. I think that might be a pretty big deal. I think so too and and you mentioned some something there joe. Just the the idea that you know. You're not the only one in. that's so easy to forget. I mean i. I've you know you see this. Come up even in very completely different context but like trainings. you know professional development trainings. You know there's always kind of people say things like oh. I thought it was only me who experienced that and something. so benign that yes as managers. We've all had difficult employees as employees. We've all had managers. We hate it you know. And there's just see the power when people go. Oh i thought i was the only one freeing find out. I'm not this oddball ads. It's a human struggle. I'm experiencing and what we're talking about his course much much deeper and more profound and i think as you. I suspect as you kind. Go down that loneliness tunnel is probably spiral. I mean i'm just imagining you. Know you isolate yourself and then isolate and isolate more and more and more and it's easy to miss that other people are isolated to especially against the nature of it. Because if you're isolated you're not telling everyone that you're isolated like right right. I think it is a spiral. And i and i think it's easy to think that you are the only one. There's no possible way. Anyone could understand the craziest in my head or in my heart And i do think it's a spiral you know. I just i look back at some. You know you said it was. I think you said liberating to know that. You're not the only one. I look back on a couple of really hard times in my life. When was losing my father to suicide when people people were very supportive and incredible but there was people that are hardly even in fact. There was some people that didn't know at all that reached out because they'd had that same experience and that's like a you know they can reach out and connect to you that that's a beautiful thing it's a it's a i mean. It's a heartbreaking dark thing but to share it with someone who knows exactly or has a real idea. What you're going through is kind of amazing. When i was married We had a miscarriage and again people that i hardly knew reached out in very profound ways. Because they had that same experience they knew some of what it felt like I think when you're when you're lonely and you lost hope and you feel like you're what's wrong with the world. I think it's really easy to believe that no one could possibly understand us. And that's why. I think we've got to try to surround people with those stories we've got a we've got a like it's super prevalence like i. I wouldn't say that everybody has had those feelings. But i think a lot of people have had dark nights It's it's far more More normal than we think and then we share again especially among men. I think i think men just don't share the story just posted that video. I've had a number of men reach out to me and say yes. I haven't told my story and i'm going to try to share it now and I think there's i think there's a lot of powered matinee. Sorry i keep saying the same thing. But i think it's i think it's a big deal i think so. Joe you know You're right we don't talk about things and when we don't talk about them. It is easy to miss. How prevalent they are so. Miscarriage was a great example You know my wife. And i had two miscarriages in two two different times in her life and from from all that you hear about it i would have assumed that it was very very rare. Thing like never happens Sure it's in the realm of possibility. Just doesn't come up that much but then once you know you've experienced that yet you start talking to people and near as i can tell it happens a lot a lot and you know and i think we can choose any kind of dark place in life about that. You know suicides the same. We probably have better numbers on suicide. I was not aware that you know. I'm more likely to kill myself now than when i was younger. But you know it's just so we don't talk about it. We don't know about it. We isolate from it. And so yeah you know it's I i like the idea of sharing the story and in at the same time while i'm sitting here thinking half that's that's what we gotta do. I mean that's also a scary thing. I mean for all the reasons we've just spent like a half hour talking about right right and you know this is a great place for a day brown quote. You're probably a bernie brown fan as well but one of my favorite things is she. She's got a great line about the connection between us between vulnerability and courage. It's something like you know. The most accurate indicator of actual courage is vulnerability. And you know. I think that is an idea that we need to do. A better job of delivering to men and boys because kerr courageous distinct. Has i think some real currency with men and boys. But i think it's oftentimes misunderstood. It's it's you know it's the it's bravado or its aggression or it's the absence of fear and that's not courage at all Courage requires you to in stand up in the face of fear in the face of risks. Like if if you're going to be a courageous person. When is the last time you chose to exhibit vulnerability like a lot of people would struggle to answer that because most of us avoid that. Because it's scary. It doesn't feel good. But i think there's almost always good stuff on the other side of it and i think this is an example that in it's not a small asking people to be vulnerable to take some of that stuff that doesn't feel good in their guts and put it out in the world. But i think it's good for them. And i think it's going to be good for other people. I think we need to have a. We need to have a better relationship with vulnerability as men. I think i. I truly believe that. So anything You know. I wanna say how do we do that and i know how we do that. Just start doing that. And we find the places to to do it in and build from there and it is know i come back to a skill said there i i believe there is a skill to being vulnerable. Suspect there is and willingness in the identity piece. So i i like that connection back to identity that if i am courageous. That doesn't mean i'm doing stupid stuff. That might just have physical harm to myself. But that i'm doing things that potentially have heart harm to the other parts of me. You know mentally and emotionally. I've got to be vulnerable. I've got to put myself out there. There's risk to it. someone could reject me. Someone could tell me. I'm wrong and being stupid and my judge. You absolutely all of all right so i love this conversation. Joe and i think it's an important one. Where do we go from here Gosh that's a. That's a big question. You you know i think we we've all got different gifts. We probably need to figure that out on her own. I know for me. I'm going to find more places to tell my story. I'm going to encourage other people to share their story. I want you know. Give folks an example of what that looks like to the best of my ability and I think i'm going to try to find ways to have more conversations about mental health for men than community and connection for men and and a little bit of a healthier version of of masculinity. But i think everyone's got a different contribution to make So i i don't know i'm not sure what yours is but i think that's what mine is. Yeah and maybe from your work in thinking about mental health is there. Is there a good place for people to start. You had mentioned one book. Are there other books other resources out there. That you found helpful Yeah i could probably list a lot of books. What one resource share real quickly as the american foundation for suicide prevention af s p dot. Org i. I don't know about everyone else. I was not real well. Educated on the facts and the details of suicide the prevalence the rates among different groups So it's been really helpful for me to involve that organization has a lot of local chapters. You can get involved in awareness and fundraising and things like that we're kind of off the topic of the richard rohrbach with. That was a really fantastic book for me at that time. one my favorite authors and. I haven't read anything by her recently. One of my favorite authors authors is bell hooks. I discovered her at a really important time in my life. She's kind of been a iota for me and she's written a lot about race about gender and she. She is one of the first people that really kind of made me think about how Men of do some damage to themselves with the idea of masculinity we we we have trunk or identity. So we don't have those emotions. She introduced topic to me a number of years ago and i think I would highly recommend just about everything by her but those are a couple that come to mind. Excellent will show. This feels like a good place to to wrap up here Really really appreciate you being on see. I think this is a crucial topic. And i i appreciate you bringing it up. Thanks for having me man. Good to see you.

joe joe gerston mantorras depression richard rohr Joker omaha Joe nebraska moammar Depression football bernie brown kerr american foundation for suicid richard rohrbach bell hooks
Q&A | 08.08.19

Culpable

27:46 min | 1 year ago

Q&A | 08.08.19

"The following program contains distressing content and graphic details regarding suicide. This may be triggering for survivors of suicide loss and those with lived experience. Please proceed with caution. If you're in crisis or having thoughts of suicide please call the national suicide prevention lifeline at one eight hundred two seven seven three eight two five or tex talk to seven four one seven four one for more resources. Please visit the american foundation station for suicide preventions website at af s._p. Dot org slash fine support. Hey guys thanks for tuning in to our second q._n._a. I appreciate all the questions you've been sending in. We're going to try to hit a lot of them in this episode but we don't get tears. Don't worry there will be another cuna in the future so continue calling him with with your questions. You can reach us at four seven zero three zero zero four nine one five. Let's jump into <music> <music> <music> there. I've been listening to the podcast and the one piece of evidence i that keeps sticking with me about the gun. If christian was indeed right handed there's no way he would have shot himself with his left hand. So is that documented that the gun was certainly in his left hand also the cocking mechanism. That's another one that just could not have been a mistake if it was the case. Is there documentation that the gun was de kock the only way hey it might have been detox is if it was the last round in the magazine and and the slide was all the way open so those two pieces who was the left hand and was the gun really de cocked with stay round in the chamber. Those are questions that i think need to be definitively the answer. Thanks guests. The gun was never documented as being de cocked in the n._p._d. Report it says the gun was recovered secured and bagged by detective woburn. One of the injury oculus former p. is later asked the officers at the scene. If any of them de cock the gun and they all claimed they did not the same p._i. Enlarge one of the crime scene photos of christian leaned over the tub and from this picture you can tell that the gun was cocked really enjoying the culpable show so far we do have a question was the gun at the murder scene or the scene with the tested for fingerprints and if so did it show christians left hand fingerprints or right and fingerprints red side or any other fingerprints for that matter on it. Thank you in short. Yes the gun was tested for prince and none were found it is fairly uncommon to obtain usable prints from a firearm research shows that labs typically get prints on only about ten percent of the guns that are examined for prints prince. It is important to note that prince may be present but they may not necessarily be usable hi. I'm a huge fan of podcasts and i love what you guys are discovering culpable. <hes> i actually just had a really quick question for you guys that i hope you guys would be able to answer for any so what what was the report its stomach contents and how much they just material was. There is doing actually did get chick-fil-a then we'd expect to see a good bit bit of that food digested and out of the stomach if he died when they stated right based on the rigor that just doesn't seem possible though but but the stomach stomach contents would bolster the case for an earlier t._d. In should raise some more questions i would think about the movement of the parties involved anyways. I love what you they doing. <hes> keep up the great work based on the toxicology report crucial was found to have caffeine in his system. The autopsy report states dates. His stomach contained pieces of partially digested food. There wasn't any indication what the food was or when it was consumed in the report a a of these questions for the culpable podcast gillan had a lot of residue on his hands well was he questioned about why he had bad gun residue on fan. What were his answers to at least look at. I not that we are aware of if he was questioned. It was never ever documented in the report. I was wondering if you would release or at least describe the coroner's report. I would be very interested to see if there was an exit is it was or anything that would indicate that the positioning of the weapon or the positioning of the aintree ruined was not consistent with suicide suicide or self inflicted gun wound. I think that would shed a lotta lie on this again. I think you're doing an excellent job really getting down to all the details of this case and <hes> you really doing the good work for this family. Who's obviously experienced quite a terrible terrible tragedy. The coroner's report was in the n._b._a. Report and is a check box type of report not a narrative that the corner road out but there are some odd things things about his report and doctor had some issues with it because it was not filled out completely and some of the information was off based on the level of rigor that christian was in. I don't have an explanation for the discrepancy but it is worth mentioning assad from typical information like name age etc. The case narrative says this twenty one year old male had been depressed. Lately friend found him slumped over the bathtub e._m._s. an l._e._d. Found gunshot wound to the head body placed in a bag and transported to the morgue for time of injury. He says four forty five pm february twenty six twenty fourteen for last seen alive. He also says four forty five pm with the same day and for time of death he says four forty five pm with the same date however however the death certificate the corner issued has christians death at three forty five pm so there's a discrepancy there. Hey my name is raleigh. I took a special interest in this podcast because i live only an hour away from radiant and i had a question regarding a statement that was made in a previous episode about a certain ulster being in charge and if that officer still insurers and the case would never be sold. Maybe because there was someone else involved in the murder of christian so yeah. That's that's my question thank you. The person this question is referring to is bilbo mitchell the d._a. At the time of christians death in episode six we hear that arrington told ray and others in their meeting the nothing would be done with this case as long as bilbo was involved. When ray asked i y chief dubose said that bill had a quote personal interest in the case as of right now we are trying to understand this ourselves and we hope to have more information formation related to this in future episodes that the ios ever considered a civil suit against whitley dylan for maybe a wrongful death. I think that would possibly possibly give them access to all investigative files a day. The rocky is have considered filing civil suits against it's multiple entities due to the pain and suffering as well as the financial hardship faced. They are currently pursuing legal action against multiple individuals. Hi this is bailey from british columbia. Canada and i've been listening to the podcast culpable <hes> it's really great so far and i just just had a question regarding. If there was any security footage maybe from the apartment lobby or <hes> the parking lot showing whitley and christian leaving coming to go to the park as they said or leaving the apartment anytime around inch after they got in their arguments and yeah thank you unfortunately there wasn't any security footage at the apartment complex though that would have been extremely helpful in this case. Have you ever experienced the painstaking process of hiring an employee. I have i'll i'll be honest. It's not something i look forward to. It always takes way longer than it should and sometimes you having to sift through a massive pile of resumes to try and find just a few qualified candidates overall overall. It's just entirely too complicated many times. I've thought there has to be a better way of doing this and the good news is there is with ziprecruiter. 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If we have received a copy of the attorney general's case file the answer is yes us after the andrew has received a copy. They shared it with us. We also obtained our own copy last week after we went through the formal request process. This is amy from birmingham in question about something that i've heard weirdly they a couple of times regarding the gun shot right there that you can kill what type of gun they on the revenue is that back through and so was it ever compared thank you guys are doing a great job at eleven podcast thank in generally speaking unless unique ammunition was used. You cannot match gunshot residue to certain gun in this case unique game. Munition was not used so there was not a match to the gunshot residue found on whitland dillon with the gun found at the crime scene. Hey guys this is mark and boston a great podcast so far <hes> my question was i noticed a love for the ripley had said <hes> enter text exchange with the guy guy that she was supposedly seeing <hes>. She said that the gunshot residue on her hand was ruled not to be from the gun that christian owned. I was wondering if this was ever determined to be a true statement or touch even possible to determine what kind of gun residue someone has on them. Thanks again and keep up the great podcast in short. Now the results from this tests didn't come back from the crime lab until march thirty first twenty fourteen whitley made these claims to matt on march third plus as i mentioned earlier in this case it wasn't possible to match the gunshot residue with a weapon. I think what you're doing and i had a question about truck that was spotted <hes> at the time of christians death at the apartment. Let's go g._m._c. has any additional information on that thank you we do not yet have an answer to <unk> whose gold truck was seen at the apartment. Though there is some speculation online betta belongs to a maintenance worker from the apartment complex. Though this is another component the we are still actively investigating hi. My name is steph. I have been listening to the culpable podcasts and i had a question about about the timing of this podcast and investigation. I have been searching online 'cause the story is so interesting and and sad and had found that it looked like they had tried to indict whitley and dylan or one of at least one of them back back in twenty seventeen and i wondered how like when you're investigation started if it was after that <hes> if there's anything thing new as in anybody wanting to look into this case again thanks i the injury oculus have been investigating this case from from the beginning with help from private investigators however black mountain media's involvement didn't begin until june twenty eighteen which was about a year and a half after the attempted indictment of whitland dylan back in january twenty seventeen however black mountain media's involvement didn't begin until june twenty eighteen which was about a year and a half after the attempted indictment of whitland dylan back in january two thousand seventeen hi. This is chris from northern california. I really enjoyed the podcast. I think everything put out. Tenders puts in really good so far the blood splatter. It's come up a lot that there's been a lack of it and it's been in places is that it shouldn't be for instance the outside of the bathroom door just curious on what you mean by the blood splatter. There's a lack of it that i'd like to hear more about his head wound was a perforating wound meaning. The bullet entered and exited his skull. There would be more blood splatter from the exit wound than the entrance swooned a gunshot wound to the head would produce a high velocity bloodstain. A forty five caliber round tends to produce fairly significant amounts of blood splatter associated with contact near contact or close range gunshot wounds to the head. If christian shot himself he should had bloodstains on the wrist and forearm of his shooting shooting hand as well as on the shooting hand itself. They're also should have been blood on his clothing as well as on the walls to his right back. Spotter would also caused blood to be deposited inside the barrel and on the outside of the handgun if there was no blood on the outside yet blood was inside the barrel. This is corroboration robbery. The outside of the gun was wiped clean. The gun was tested for fingerprints and blood. There were no latent fingerprints on the gun and there was no blood found on on the gun. This was also backed by the crime lamb who stated there was not blood anywhere on the gun or in the barrel dennis taylor from our carolina here. My question is if there's a statute of limitations on murder in mississippi. I love the work you're doing on culpable and at black mountain media thank you there is no statute of limitations on murder in the state of mississippi we have mentioned before in the show a three or statute of limitations but that pertains to wrongful suits my thoughts and my heart with the andrew gawky oh family this must be so difficult <hes> i was wondering hiring based on there was another podcast i was listening to where they downloaded the google data from persons phone who was deceased and that was able to show them the location of the phone. It seems like with a lot of accuracy much more accuracy than the <hes> even in cell towers can do and i'm sure there might be a whole bunch of other data on the phone that is being collected by services like google or apple that run in the background and <hes> you know no things like your location and could also help recover. Maybe some messages that have been deleted <music> while whitley had possession of the phone so i was wondering if you guys have been able to get into any of christians account to see what might be their thanks. Thanks and i'm enjoying the podcast. It's very tragic subject when they were able to access christians account there was no data. He hadn't even received any new emails else. They figured the account was wiped. Because of an activity the count have been locked by google due to suspicious logging temps. They weren't able to gain access to the account now until just recently furthermore christian did not use any google apps on his iphone. Hi this is christine from auburn washington calling <hes>. My question for the culpable team is has any of this evidence that you have been sharing caused the n._p._d. The or the n._b._a. I to pull their heads out of the stand and reexamined any of this. Thanks for all that you're doing and hopefully christian gets justice soon. Dan n._p._d. Still has this case closed the only information that we've shared so far that n._p._d. Did not have at the time of doing their initial. Investigation is the witness at at the apartment that heard the gunshot other than that they have been informed of the findings of knox and associates and dr arnn but this is not lead them to change the ruling on the case or reopen it. Hey guys we just finished coble episode eight <hes> talking about the forensics in the crime scene and we had to two questions we were curious if how many rounds had been fired from the weapon whether it was just the one that was in the drywall and then also did they recover cover any kind of blood or tissue from the hole in the wall to confirm that that was the bullet that hit christian. Thanks your time. Keep up the good work. There's no no way of knowing for sure. How many rounds were fired. It's believed that just the one round was fired. The gun was found with six rounds in the clip. One round in the chamber and one expended round was founded in the bathtub while there was what appeared to be a bullet hole in the wall. The bullet was not still in the wall. When officers arrived on the scene the the bullet was found in the bathtub and subsequently had christians blood on it but they did appear to be material consistent with wall board on the bullet. This was in fact the bullet bullet that killed christian. The should have also been biological matter on the bullet but it is not documented that it was ever tested to determine if that was the case so there really isn't a way of knowing yeah. I've got a question <hes> at the beginning of episode seven kristen's brother. Josh said they found a t shirt in the apartment. They went back in and it was clearly used to wipe up blood. Did they take any pictures of it and <hes> with that being said did the police that showed up take pictures or do they not take pictures in the event of a suspected suicide was a crime scene in unit called because it was expected to be a suicide. Thanks in short. There are no photos of the shirt and the crime scene photos. Josh is the one that found the shirt when he was at the apartment clean the crime scene he was on his hands and knees cleaning the floor when he found it and after realizing what it was he put did it in a bag and gave it to m._b._a. He didn't see the need to take photos for himself. At the time these are the time they were not yet distrustful of law enforcement and assumed zoomed n._b._a. Would handle the evidence appropriately. Y'all <hes> first of all. I love the podcast <hes> my question is i believe leave. It was in episode seven where ray mentioned that she asked law enforcement to speak with todd's dad because jill had talked to him so. Can you elaborate on that just a little bit. Thanks and keep up. The good work todd's father christians. The grandfather is joe. Andrea q. in joe worked with dylan's grandfather and the guard shortly after christian's death dillwyn over to joe's house to tell him about what what he knew joe has since passed away but we do have his original notes which i can read from that lay out what they talked about. It's mostly from dylan's alibi which we've heard several times and most of it is consistent but it's still like to share this with you before i get into it. I like to add that raise adamant that joe. I told her the reason dylan came over there was because he was concerned what was saying about him and he also asked on her behalf about a life life insurance policy. We have joe andrea kiel's notes which lay out what they talked about. I'll admit that that's not found in the notes. What's found in his notes from this. Day is a depiction of dylan's alibi joe. Andrea kio has since passed away so we can't get an account from him to this day but but we do still have these notes. I like to read through these again. This is depicting dylan's alibi. The notes read. I got a call from christian. He asked if the girl was still there. He told him yes. He told him to come to new orleans and pick him up. He was coming home to get his car and get her out of the apartment. Upon arrival at the apartment christian told dylan to go get sandwiches and drinks a chick-fil-a when he got back with the food she did not eat hers but put it behind her on a shelf behind the couch. Kristen told him they were going to go. Take a ride and come back in in two hours. At this time dylan left a second time. When he came back she was on the couch and he asked where cushing was there. There's no reply from her. She was asleep. He started to call for christian and went in his room but he was not downstairs so he went upstairs. Years and found christian slumped over the bathtub. He yelled at this time. She woke up and came upstairs and grab christian. He told her not to touch him because he was calling nine one one. She got a cigarette out of his pocket. This is when the call was made and she went downstairs stairs and sat down on the step at this time. Dylan told me there was a drop of blood on the steps nine. One one was called at four forty eight. She then went back to the couch and went back to sleep. The sheriff department shows up and barely touch her and she wakes up. She never heard the shot. She said dillon also told me on the trip from new orleans to the apartment. The cushion had a tracking device on her phone and that he had a picture of his car at matt miller's house for three to five hours lastly. I'd like to address the subject of money. We've received a handful of questions on the matter some directed at us the producers and some directed at the andrea family rather than share specific questions. I'm just going to take a minute to address all the questions and one sweep and hopefully you will find this helpful. I we the creators of culpable at black mountain media. <hes> and tender footsie have received no money from the android family. All the family has given us as the sun story and their trust and my opinion taking taking money from this family would be a crime in and of itself and even if they would offer which they never once have we would decline. We are paid our sponsors. They are very important to what we're doing here because without them we wouldn't have the means to produce the show to our sponsors. We want to publicly thank you for your support and helping hoping provide us the opportunity to share the story as for the family the injury oculus have not received any money or profited in any way through this podcast and i assure sure you they would never want to the only thing they went in. This is justice for their son. They fought for that for over five years. Now believe me. That's the only thing they're concerned about. So those of you asking how you can help the family and whether or not there's a way to donate the answer is no they appreciate the offer but but that's not what they want however if you feel compelled to help out in some way i think that's very honorable and they should look into giving towards the charity instead i. I'd like to point you to a nonprofit organization. That race started called magnolia son. It was created in honor of christian and their mission is to provide appropriate footwear and clothing for for children in need with emphasis placed on children in state custody in order to meet their basic needs and facilitate improving their self esteem. I love what they're doing. Magnolias son and i urge you to go to the website where you can learn more. You can check them out at magnolia sun dot com. This concludes our second q._n._a. Episode as i mentioned earlier we will be doing another one in the future so continue calling in with your questions sion's you can reach us at four seven zero three zero zero four nine one five remember to tune in monday for up so ten culpable is a production of black mountain media and tender foot t._v. in conjunction with cadence agents thirteen executive producer dennis cooper jacob bozarth donald albright pain lindsey and me mark memory additional production by whitney bozarth arth courtney cooper mayor stegman and mason lindsey audio editing mixing mastering in sound design by resonate recordings. If you you have a podcast or are considering starting podcast of your own i urge you to check them out at resonate recordings dot com fi music and score by dirt poor robbins cover art by drew dana. I want to extend a special. Thanks to my kinds sheila. Why sake and lance black you can follow us on social media. <hes> at culpable podcast show notes as well as bonus content can be found on our website culpable podcast dot com. If you enjoyed this episode please take time to subscribe rate and review. Your feedback is greatly appreciated and lastly. If you have any information related to the death of christian chirac you please email us at tips at black mountain media dot net or call us at four seven zero three zero zero four nine one five. Thank you for listening and tune in for new episodes every monday <music>.

whitley dylan murder officer christian chirac new orleans ray kristen google joe andrea kiel american foundation Canada andrew whitland dillon todd caffeine boston california gillan assad birmingham
Looking After Your Mum

Mentally Yours

34:13 min | 2 years ago

Looking After Your Mum

"I'm Jay Farner, CEO of Quicken Loans, America's premier home purchase lender. We've created a new way to protect you from unpredictable interest rates are exclusive rate shield approval. I we lock your interest rate for up to ninety days. Then if rates go up your rate stays locked. But if rates go down your rate drops either way you win. Call us today at eight hundred quicken or go to rocketmortgage dot com, racial approval. Only valid on certain thirty year fixed rate loans. Call for cost information and conditions. Equal housing lender. Licensed in all fifty states and MLS number thirty thirty additional conditions are exclusions may apply. Previously on mentally yours for a couple of years. I lashed out, and I had the anger and all of this stuff. But I I just learned to deal with it and try and move on with my life at quickly realized that if I had any animosity or anger that stayed with me, the my life would be completing a different story. I think really it's learning to talk about it learning to channel what you're feeling in positive way. Whether it's writing about it. Whether it's listened to music, whether it's. Talk to a friend a thing irony. Really learn how to do that. And so at the end of my teens, I think. Mentally. Focus on your mental regrets. Mentally. Me deal. Then to. Mentally. Welcome to mentally yours. Metro Cody case weekly podcast about all things mental health. My name's Ellen. And today, we told me to Allie golden, he's just released. A memoir would a good soldier out her life with her mom who had borderline personality disorder. We're gonna be talking about how that affected her outbrea and this port she wishes she had when she was younger. I wrote this book all the good soldier primarily that I could help other people who might be similar situation mentally ill, parent or loved one. The back. Dizzy situations can last very long time, and that becomes extremely difficult for the person who trying to support a civically my situation. My mother was mostly ill with both depression, and borderline personality disorder around the time that I was a toddler, and it was eight years old the first time she said she wanted to enter lice. She was very Frank with my younger brother, and I about that. I spent the whole of my childhood trying to hoaxer back to life by audit with the right actions with the right words that I could control the situation and as long as my mother was alive than I had one this challenge. The thing that I think Herrick derise my relationship. Most with my mom was inconsistency. My. Mom had been awful she'd been universally mean or abusive it would have been much easier to walk away from the situation and just say, this is completely dysfunctional and done. The fact is my mother was a good mother in many respects. She was the first person to support my writing whenever I have a friend that she always wanted to help me through it. She was as she doing a good job as she was capable of doing. And so at many things very complicated. And in the end, you know, I live to be thirty years old with constantly fearing for my mother's life trying to leave her to the right help whether were met he sends or social services programs or inpatient programs. And I think my mother just was too ill to really take advantage of those things and the things that are important for loved ones straight members that you can do everything you can support someone. If they aren't ready willing or able to get treatment. That's not your fault. There's only so much you do and the situation with my mother ended when I was thirty years old, and she did die by suicide which we had feared for many many years. But that was the end of perjury and the end of mine when it comes to relationship, you sound quite undestanding now, and you can say she was doing the best that she posted -ly could. But when you were a child Howdy view while you kind of worried about her primarily, what did he feel anger towards? Yeah. I think I did feel anger because it seemed to me as a child that she wasn't doing what he needed to do as a parent, and I was a little bit resentful that I had to be apparent. I was angry at her the way, she just neglected my brother, my brother was younger, and she was just too sick to really take care of in. So we kids were left on her own mother also was very combative depending on the day. She had all sorts of insults for me. And my brother and that was hard to deal with I was never quite good enough for her as part of world line personality disorder. Is you slip people way in black? You know, our I mean, not to use that as a derogatory thing. But that's not in the borderline personality community is being something that happens. And she she really was quite negative toward me. I was angry as I got older. I was a little more angry because. I tried to get all this help. And it just didn't seem like she was motivated to do anything that was very frustrating while at the same time, she was imposing on me as a manipulative forum trying to get me to do certain things say certain things as a little bit older that became more apparent. So it was. More anger producing as opposed to worry producing. But I really hope for sure. Was she went that? She had these mental illnesses. You know, she was always on quite comfortable with the depression diagnosis. I don't think we really didn't hear the term borderlines Rhone much around until the very end NAN. I don't think she really thought this is similar to other people before I don't really think she thought she had a problem with her interactions with people with relationships people, which is the crime characterization of borderline personality disorder. I I don't think my mother really felt that way I think she thought that everyone was doing things to her in the world was unfair to her now that she was actually acting on the world causing people to respond in a certain way on even at the end. It didn't really seem like she took full responsibility for that. And that's difficult because if you don't know what your role is. You don't think you have action that you can take to improve your life that you have no agency on minutes to. Wasn't voting line is still not really spoken about very much. Like, I didn't really hear it will hear about it until like maybe a year or so ago. I feel like it's not very well known. Oh, yeah. I it's a lot of times confused with just people who are really difficult. Yeah. Not the difficult people to deal with and as I said, they they struggle with relationships with other people how to engage with people have empathy for other people had had seasonings from their side. And so it is a personality disorder that is described in the DSM. But I think it because it's a personality thing, I think people sometimes feel like oh, legislated illness say in this. But I know definitely will always misconception around baby. It's quite interesting. How it hasn't really cool up with the conversation about say depression, anxiety, those kind of things right? You talk about mental health now on you describe yourself as a mental health advocate. How do you think you'll experience with your mom, kind of inspired you and pushed you into that role? Will there were two parts of it L in for for one thing? I felt very isolated is the child I felt like a lot of people were aware of the situation, but didn't necessarily know what dude. Hell word -sition a hell. So as I was kind of left on my own thinking, I was the only one through this. And it was the same thing when I experienced suicide I felt extreme alienating like I tell people the truth that nobody would know what I was going through. It was Barra sing in way shameful in a way. And so after your so asked I got all the American Foundation pursue assigned prevention, which is a very large organization here in the states. That's dedicated to supporting survivors. Really? It's also dedicated to preventing suicide, of course. But I think recognizing that suicide has patterns on the suicide alleys supporting survivors is really important. And so I got involved with them and started doing volunteer work helping survivors cope with. With what had just happened or in some cases, what had happened years ago they didn't feel like they had dealt with properly. And so that's one thing. I've also been going around speaking about how to support loved ones who have mental illness. How to take care of yourself? How to recognize the signs of suicide ending suicide the myths impacts associated with a lot of misinformation that goes around, and really it's my privilege to be able to do this work because if I can help one person who was going through what I went through than everything that I do is worth it because it helps that person's life in a tremendous way. How did take care of yourself? Do you feel like you'll growing up experience has made you more of your own mental health and won't g out for those triggers. This is a great question Allen. And I would love to be able to say I came out unscathed from the situation ninety for many years, I often I was super resilient and that is just done brilliantly compared to how things could have gone, but as I got a little bit older. I recognize there are scars when you raised by someone who doesn't know how to engage other people. She was my primary parent. My dad was not around a lot when I was a child. So she was the primary influence you learn certain ways of relating that are not productive. And and I struggled with that my entire life. I have struggled with it with friends with romantic partners. And all I try to do better myself, thirty yourselves. There's nothing shameful about that. And I am constantly vigilant about it because it is a lifelong struggle identidad certain patterns. I'm not bordering, thankfully. But you know, there are certain things that you do in ask you something that you learned from your parents as as your primary role model, so very vigilant about it under concerned with my relationships of other people in making sure that they usually beneficial active and just trying to do the best. I can which is all I think anyone can do particularly someone with a history of childhood trauma. It's one day at a time and doing Michigan. How do you do with being hyper vigilant if that you sound like you could be so aware of not doing the wrong thing they could become quite stressful. When you give a gift because you are worried that it will be enough for that person. Or you know, they have to deal with things about you that may or may not be real images being your head. And so yeah, I mean, it can be very stressful than it's not natural to me to have. Very close relationships. It just I just never learned how to do it. So as an adult, you learn you do the best you can because I feel like everyone can kind of relate to maybe not liking things that parents not wanting to be like their parents, so kind of over correcting. But when this mental illness involved, there's a whole other level because you're right. You've learned the patents from them. And so this genetic factor kind of patents. Could you give as examples that you full into in pop because of what euro mongo through that a great example is actually something that's been up for bait? And I'm sure anyone is listening to raise it at soldier could feel free to chime in. But the whole middle section of good soldier takes a little bit of a detour and talks about my development of romantic relationships. And my mother's role is is more limited in that section. And the reason that I did. That is because that's the area where my mother had the boast pronounced effect on my development. When I first started dating people when I was a teenager and drew my early on young adults. I really did not know how to have relationship with man, or when you like it just was problematic. I needed I was defensive. I thought they were out to get me dated love me. And I really sense push people away who cares about me. And that had unfortunately, having those early failures from relationship perspective shapes the person that I would be comes in adult, which is a person who's much more. Reserved removed not trustworthy. And so s I think it's a very clear example of how learning my mother's patterns Shaked me initially, and then our I did basically a one eighty to stop being like that when the one eighty is not necessarily good either. And what I'm trying to do today. Now that I'm forty is trying to find a happy medium between those two things between carrying too much and caring too little. And I think this is something that a lot of kids. Learn naturally from well-adjusted parents who they have normal attachment with. But unfortunately for mandate, many people listening out there that out not the case. So we have to make it up as we alone. Going into when you growing up. How did you notice that something was not quite right? We'll that you'll childhood is different to other kids. I noticed that. My child was different. Because my mother was in battle time. She was not able to hold down a job. She stopped doing basic parental things fairly early on. There was constant conflict in a house with my father, and my brother and myself. She cried a lot she threatened to end her life. She wasn't involved with any of the things that my friends, but parents were involved in. She wasn't voting in school. She didn't do volunteer work. It just seemed like every day was kind of a struggle for her. And when I would go to other people's houses in the air, parents I thought that was not the norm. And I wasn't really exposed anyone else light my mother. So I knew that she was different in that this was different. And I was basically on my own in many respects in as I mentioned before there were certain areas where my mother was good parrot. But it was I would say more the exception. We were able to talk to anyone at the time. Not really. And this is why I do the advocacy work that I do in the book because there wasn't. I mean, again, we talked about waterline personality disorder people to stay hers is really annoying. That was the attitude that my relatives suck. The my mother was just so hard to deal with that. They were just not gonna have any interaction with family and that included the children. So either the children were my brother in our isolated from our family. We didn't have wonderful grandparents who visited but they lived in California. We lived in Maryland outside of DC. That's twenty twenty way. We didn't get to see them as much as what have been helpful and a school. There were some teachers who were more supportive. I remember one time when my parents got divorced or getting separated we were put in a support group at school. And I remember thinking my parents getting divorced is kind of the least of my problems like. Already to take care of my mother, and how gonna take care of my brother and myself like that was a bigger problem. But there's no other adult in house to to help with that. So really been getting divorced was not not thinking, I should've been counseling for that was wearing and friendly. I was always Ellen a very high auctioning person, even as young child. So there were many right flags because I was a straight a student who was involved in after school activities. I didn't seem to be depressed. I didn't seem to have serious problems. So I, you know, there was nothing really wrong for people to identify. So it's difficult because you as adults separate from the situation looking out for those warning signs, I doing bandaids school. They seem really upset any someone is well adjusted it's hard to intervene. Yeah. They know. I mean, I have friends from childhood know, any of this until I published a book like they were like really all this was going. On like over there. I mean, it just it's hard. Our people won't do you wish that children growing up with mentally ill? Parents what kind of support should they be having? What is the key to intervening and giving them the support they need? I think the key is for parents to know what they're dealing with a to help to help get support for the children because I think that children aren't necessarily going to reach out our selves and get it. So parents in their own mental illness the impact that has on children. I think is really important. I think it's really important for relatives to not take the behavior. I knows is hard to do face this in a situation. Michael bike with another family is hard for relatives to intervene. I think he don't wanna intervene and do something drastically trying to get the kid out of the situation at least service like a positive role model for the child someone that the child can talk stable who they know what type of behavior to expect. So that they can see that not all adults are like this. There is someone that they can trust rely on a bow. Probably be the biggest message because there really isn't. A lot. The other people can do when I all doesn't show signs of trauma, or obviously, the does show signs of trauma them you get professional help for that. But if it's a situation like, mommy where you know. You know, the situation is ideal details, well, then you reach out to the child and try to develop a relationship because if I hadn't even one person like that, I think it would have made a huge difference ama- grandparents sort of, but they were far away even as an adult. It's been super interesting. Not in a good way. Our that I had several people claim that they want to be like a mother figure to me and kind of more like the idea of that in the reality. And so that's kind of the other thing that I would caution is both with children and with adult children who have gone through something like this like don't bite off than you can chew don't promise things that you're not going to delay. For because that's going to end up hurting the child more than anything. So I mean, I want people to be proactive to do what they feel needs to be done. But at the same time be realistic about what your own state is what your own desire willingness and ability is to to help a child hope and even in adult child yet. It's simplest stepping on gonna rescue you from the situation. Everything's fine. Yes. It's what it's providing pro-putin getting the parent the help that they need. That's right. Is it kind of lie? If you have a mental Nuccio just not really designed to parent autho ways that you can get around that. And I'll be honest I had seen Serbs children. But I was really hesitant to have via logical children for this exam. I'm what my husband told me at the time. Was you know, when you're kid, you don't wait to get like, you could get this. You could get something else. Like everybody has stuff. They're going to ask on their such a genetic. There's no doubt about that. But there are so many other factors involved with whether someone develops mental illness what kind of mental illness. They did not whether whenever metals can be treated at all. I mean, there are some minimum. But my mother wasn't treated successfully. But the other thing that went went on mother's she had prescription drug addiction as well, which greatly impacted her ability to be treated, so I don't want to just say out, right? Oh, my mother was untrue table like new my other head detox from drugs. I think we would've seen contentiously seen a different outcome. But she was not willing to do that. So in terms of becoming a parent, I think biological question is a good one. But it's one that has that's for sure. And I think if you wanna have a biological child, you should end then you just try to do what we get which is catch signs early that things are not rate and the thing about husband, and I is that where you mentioned the word vigilance were very vigilant about our children's mental health. Our son has a temperament that is not ideal. He's very negative. He he's very heating some world is out to get him. Now, this is the kind of thing where you can imagine develops into a mental Elvis at some point and had very well might he's ten years old. But we're watching it so carefully. He's already been in therapy. I'm not opposed to drugs that's essentially necessary. And when it comes to, you know, the very unfortunate situation of teenagers who who die by suicide were frequently than other groups allow parents are caught completely off guard by that like they had no idea. Restored alling think people with a history of mental listener family are going to be much more likely to see the signs of such a thing in actually be able to stop it. So the first thing I would say about parenting, the second thing I'd say about parenting is that when you grow up with dysfunctional parrot, you know, what not to do. And I'm a member of several Facebook groups where people are raising their children very differently based on. What's what they learned was a terrible way to parrot. So it it can go both ways I think it's right to be concerned out cycle. Because I think that we do again tend to repeat the patterns of our parents. So, you know, whether you have children that are biologically or not whether you're influencing someone else's life in any way. Whether it's children are not it's something to be aware and just to be a little bit conscious. So that you you can interact with people children and otherwise the most actively possible. But I think you're right. Like, I think if you conscious of it that's kind of a major step because he will be more aware of things will be more aware of mental health in general on you're able to those signs we are so vigilant in our family. Mickey it's know something's bothering them. They talked to us. We what we watched signs for things a young, but you can bet when they're teenagers. I'm gonna be watching this stuff really closely. And I think I'm watching it were closely than people who have no experience county took to your children about mental health will I don't talk to them first of all about my mother's story. I feel. Geom- for that. So they not her in that story. They probably won't gear. It I suspect when my son's around twelve that will be the right time. He's very bright. So twelve or thirteen I think, but until then they won't hear the whole story. But what I when I say amendments, you know, depression is a real thing. Mental health is a real thing that we have to watch just as we watch our physical health. And so if you're not feeling well, if you're I talk about issues of negativity out of refrain things with my son like, okay? Well, let's look in its classic cognitive behavioral therapy. It's let's look at the number of positive things that happen in your life. Today. Let's look at list of native which list is longer and he's old enough to understand that in. He's old enough to see that focuses on the day in that. It's not is not objectively true that he has don't use the word Haagen of bias. That's what it's all NC Irby in. We tend teaching him about a young age my daughter's saddened, so she little younger not why. Teaching her the same things not that yet. But we are already starting to talk about moods in how they pass and how most of the things we worry about never come to fruition and their little life lessons, by the way, some of them I learned from my mother -ironically, but. But play pass on the good stuff. Not that. So, you know, I think just talking about emotions is huge like. I think a diff- generation was just to think about that. What to talk about it? Huge difference. I don't know if you all have similar programs in the probably you case for big in this way, but we have actually emotional intelligence training school now and the kids are on how to be more emotionally intelligent recognize versions cope effectively with emotions develop good relationships as part of a curriculum. Now. We working on during the in the UK still kind of petitioning towards mental health education. I think it makes a huge difference. My parents, and my brother teaches and those saying that just talking to about express emotions has made a huge difference. Yeah. I'm especially for the young age. Exactly. I think when you've written a book like this in Britain about mental health in general, you have to do quite a deep dive into your own mental stay in your own life has that been fee, what kind of lessons have you learned from writing this? It was a big journey. I had many concerns writing at the first concern was would it be dad? You know, I I am I'm a writer professionally as well. And obviously, I write on lots of different topics than this. And I was concerned that the book wouldn't be good quality. And also who who the heck cares about me? It just helps. Indulgent? I didn't want to be boring or south involves Felton mall. And so it took me a while having other people read it professionals commentary on it to to understand that I had done a recently. Good job. We're so I stopped worrying about that. Quite as much in the next thing. I worried about was could I handle most of the people in my life learning about this story when they weren't aware of four and how it kneel to have some of those conversations with people, and then I also worried about hurting people. There are some people mother. I'd never would've published this shoes alive. I'm she's the primary person that probably would have gotten hurt. But my dad doesn't come off looking stellar at times. My ex boyfriend still come off looking star terms, and I was worried about earning those people. So I wanted to make sure that they had a pre read of it. They were comfortable with what I was saying that they didn't feel it was unfair. I think the process of writing the book helped me. The journey wasn't over the journey concludes actually in two thousand eight from the perspective of good soldier. But but really there's quite a lot that's happened after that heart of the same pollution. And so originally, I think I was I thought that that was kind of a fitting end to my mother's story with me. And I realized over the course of writing the book in living years afterward that in fact, the story is continued at I probably could have done a part for and maybe I will someday. But the story was definitely not over there in terms of might development and the impact that my mother is Elvis haven't makes even though she's been dead for ten years. Now, it continues to have an everyday impact. And I wish it didn't. But that's just the way it is. What was the reaction like competing pool that you knew because he was saying people didn't know any of this until the book came out? Surprise, not yield was three run on for people who felt like they should have done something or war or anything should have noticed something that that was. I mean, people were not I worried about people feeling sorry for me. And I I didn't get as much of that. Which was good people being activated to pay more attention to their own families. And you'll support a lot of these groups that I spoke out of law, mental health groups here in the US and. The reaction. There was people were so grateful to have someone understood their experience in the book. Fortunately, seems to be reasonably sessile meeting net. It sort of a one setting kind of read people getting roasted. So it's not like it's a chore for them to get through it. They feel like someone understands and that I've come out to some degree on the other side any. Yes, I'm definitely not perfect. I mentioned my struggles. But I am a functional reasonably successful human being. So it can't be done your life doesn't have to be ruined by having a mentally O'Hara. And I guess I'm walking around as proof of that. I suppose anything few people talking about MRs. Woah. So it makes a huge difference to just have a book like this out. The it's definitely self-indulgent. I think it's really necessary. Thank you. Yeah. I mean that that was the hope it took me I read other books. It took me takes me usually about six eight months to write a book in this one took eight years. And it was it was because of all the concerns I had wanting to get it out there as authentically as possible when not for trae myself in a way that seems not foldable or not suffering or a tendency when you read something like this to to be somewhat removed from it. And I didn't want to do that. I wanted to be so honest, and that was hard. It was really hard. But I that I did a decent job or at least. The semi decent job. I don't know we'll readers you could tell me might fun question is if as anyone listening and the a young person on all the person, and the parent is showing signs of mental illness advice, would you have for the children. Well, how old the children are in gets under fifteen or not going to be really be able to for kids under the age of fifteen. I would say reach out to a relative reached out to a trusted adult and tell them what's what's happening and see if you can get some assistance, and then I would say from the perspective of older kids. Get get your parent professional help seek community resources can put you in the right direction. I were a lot with F SPN. Nami those are American based organizations, but you have similar organizations where you can at least get access to free or really low cost resources for your parents, who at least plugged into the system because untreated mental illness is just a true shame. Because a lot of times those things can really be helped and your parents shouldn't suffer alone in it'll help you if you're able to secure some additional. Support from your parents. And let's face it you as a child are not gonna be forget, you're not in addition to get you're not a mental health professional. You're not an expert so seek out resources has they are out there. I think that's an important message to end on like, I think of times when you the child on your parent is ill, you feel like you have to be that adult in you have to take care of them. And just hearing like, no, that's not yours ones. You should also help is huge. Yep. That's right. It's not your responsibility, and even adults night responsibility. But you can do things to help it. You can't insist that person get well, you may not even be in control. Mrs this is sort of debatable concept you, but you're not in control. Whether that person lives are guys. I mean that that's decision that individual it doesn't mean that if it doesn't go, but it's your fault. And that's a hard thing. I think for kids who grow up feeling responsible for their parents wellbeing to have it not end, well is to you failed and to learn that lesson I make is very important. Chose to me. Mentally. Thanks very much. If you've been affected by any of the issues discussed today, please Samaritans on one six one three or go to their website at Samaritans don't. Thanks very much to Ali chatting with us today. Thanks to some bona, my producer until Baker for the jingles if this up, so please view on ITN's and come join us online on Facebook. If you such mentally ios also Twitter at mental ios yoursel wa s see next week.

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Persons of Interest | 10

Culpable

31:13 min | 1 year ago

Persons of Interest | 10

"The following program contains distressing content and graphic details regarding suicide. This may be triggering for survivors of suicide loss and those with lived experience. Yes please proceed with caution. If you're in crisis or having thoughts of suicide please call the national suicide prevention lifeline at one eight hundred two seven seven three eight two five or tex talk to seven four one seven four one for more resources. Please visit the american foundation on dacian for suicide preventions website at af s._p. Dot org slash fine support. I think from the beginning we always felt that there was a third or even fourth person involved because we never felt that whitley and dillon would be able to handle chretien by themselves and it wasn't until probably year a year to her between two or three that we began really having a lot of suspicions of particular chick person or particular people their names kept coming up and i think the biggest twist in the story three came when cynthia our attorney was talking to a witness about some information that he had given given us and she was following up on in the course of talking to him about that information a whole nother avenue opened up and um it kind of was the starting point of realizing maybe bill bowes motivation and the reasons for the case being stalled so i think it over the years we became very <hes> frustrated with the situation that way kept gathering all this information but no one one ever we do anything with it and now we have the d._a. <hes> casey coleman who frequently states will you know if you have new information and bring it to me and will consider reopening the case but so much of this information is really not new because we've had it for. Maybe be two years some of them three years but to them it would be me because it doesn't show up in their foul. They've never spoke to these people and it's just a very very difficult situation to be in because we feel like it's kind of a no-win situation. Uh uh <music> in this episode. You're going to hear two different but in a way very similar accounts the manage to thicken the plot even more because these accounts bring into play to new persons of interest now warn you ahead of time that was presented in this episode is going to sound somewhat cryptic for now now. I'm sorry to say this but we will be being out the names of the persons of interest so that's one thing and as for the people who are sharing their accounts which implicate these persons they have both asked to remain anonymous law enforcement knows the names of these people who came forward with this information as well as the names of the persons of interest and that's what matters the most so i ask that you just keep an open mind and try as best you can to follow along because i believe what we're sharing. Here is very very important with that that said the first account. I'd like to share comes from a friend of race who will call mary. She came forward with information shortly after christian's death mm-hmm. Mary was asked a favor we all know. Ray was suspicious of whitley concerned about christian safety. It's natural for parents want to know the shot a safe but in this case in order for rate of feel that sense of security. She decided to make a pretty abnormal request. She asked mary to keep an eye on the apartment. Specifically when christian was away on hitch and whenever she can make the time that's what mary would do. She drives the apartment part and said from time to time. I wanna point out when rafer shared this with me. I was taken back. She buffered it saying this is going to make me sound crazy which immediately place me in that group of people making assumptions about her but as many times before i was reminded raise not crazy she smart she has intuition like i said it was a totally abnormal request. I'm not going to act like it wasn't but it's certainly not one. She regrets because the day christian died. He was supposed to be away on hitch which meant mary was right where she was supposed to be at the apartment. Here's her story. Christon was like my other child in his asset our his black mom he could come talk to me when he couldn't talk to his mom. Ray radiohead suspected that someone's going on at that time window was wide open okay of course she did. It was no secret you know when kristen layoff that was apartment was demean place for the party whatever so she asked me she said. Would you do me a fable and she said when kristen lee will you go uh the part that was originally started me this particular today. We used to to twenty six. I said well. I'm gonna go make maroon. She's now. Don't worry about it. She said i got somebody matt ears. This can this able to see that they'll never wheat say he could get into gate in in what gate causes navigate new could just ride up but he thought he was talking about they have so that's where he was to suda has so at that point. Nobody was there watching the apartment. So two things occur occur here. I something very unfortunate. An investigator who ray had just recently hired was supposed to go to the apartment that day but in a misunderstanding he went to their home and dale would instead and got caught up at the gate there ray would go on to tell him to just not worry about going to the apartment that day but fortunately mary still went by there that day she had decided since she was running out for her lunch break anyways that she swing by the apartment which was nearby. Here's more from her. We used to winter loan itch late twelfth third of winning. I learned she wrote the by one fifteen third or something like that. That's when the two guys as seen combat mm-hmm warm with the head the other one. I actually seen him. It's a big tool. It was a black laco ago. Would they call them. It's four four by four one big. It will play any head of greeley around front in the other. The details on this took out stickers or you see the license plate or now. I mean like i said one will looking you just ride to not known it later this would oh uh and i didn't find out to later day ray was she was looking at some stuff that i guess somebody put on facebook or whatever and i said there's a what has it is the guy that was coming out apartment aww but i thought it would deal and she said now that i noted as that's the game right and she said oh you should i say yeah and so at at this point she would like. Why haven't you as well right. I mean look the same or whatever as but i assume that that was dylan neom and still she said now she does not know no bill but detroit so when when ray was showing pizza head to pitcher detroit the man was standing back and i said that's the truck and she said you she also that trump there. There's the main. They got in the truck drivers when she told me that was and i hope they would him. She said well who we ask of. You know he had a head down and everything in some big shares so can you confirm. Is this who you saw coming out of the apartment that day breath and so you know the one was the second like i said i can see because he had a head head. The head on it was hit. You know bad down so don't know who it was. I feel in my heart. You should let me win. Stay up in here because i would see that he was gone but he came back and i could have told them right here in time aw thank about it even though it's been that low because sometimes she wouldn't have to tell me just a moment instant i will go at c. n. Just watch so it. It bothered me. It hurts the ill. She would let me go <music> now. Saying wouldn't it would've stopped but at least they would have known. He was back in time <music> <music>. Have you ever experienced the painstaking staking process of hiring an employee. I have i'll be honest. It's not something i look forward to. It always takes way longer than it should and sometimes you having to sift through a massive pile of resumes resumes to try and find just a few qualified candidates overall. It's just entirely too complicated. Many times thought there has to be a better way of doing this and the good news is is there is with ziprecruiter check them out at ziprecruiter dot com slash approach ziprecruiter since your job to over one hundred of the web's leading job boards they don't stop there with their powerful matching technology ziprecruiter scans thousands of resumes to find people with the right experience and invites them to apply to your job as applications locations come in ziprecruiter analyzes each one and spotlights the top candidates so you never miss a great match process so effective that four out of five employers who post host unzip recruiter get a quality candidate through the site within the first day and right now. My listeners can try ziprecruiter for free at this exclusive web address ziprecruiter ziprecruiter dot com slash approach. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash a. p. p. r. o. A. c. h. ziprecruiter dot com mm-hmm slash approach ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire just to clarify when mary i told her about all this shortly after christian's death she explained to her that she saw two men exit the apartment in the afternoon that day she was unable to give a description for one of the men other than he was wearing the hat but the second one she did get a good look at and she assumed that that man was dylan. She'd seen him one other time before so she was somewhat familiar with with this appearance but then roughly a year later a picture will leader to believe that it was actually someone else she saw that day. Mary walked into raise office. One day and ray had a man's facebook page up on her screen which mary happens see immediately upon seeing she reacted saying there's dylan but it wasn't dylan's facebook page that ray had pulled up it was someone else she had been suspicious of and when ray clarified who the person was mary was adamant that it was the same man she saw at the apartment on the twenty. Six ray would sit with this information for a couple of years one. If someone else would come forward corroborating this account and then finally someone did this brings me to the second account. I'd i'd like to share which came from a man who worked with hayes mitchell at magnolia marine the same company christian worked for we'll call him kelly which comes from the name the the boat and hayes worked on now interestingly kelly had initially come forward very early on with the tip. He told the jury oculus that he believed christians jeep had been moved in the magnolia corrine parking lot after kershaw boarded his final hitch we mentioned this theory about the jeep being moved back in episode three but then years later in two thousand seventeen he spoke with the indrawati as attorney cynthia speeches about this but he also offered up some new information that came from an interaction he had with hayes. He's while they were working together on the boat. Here's what he had to say. I knew him from out here. I had my dad it was good with his uncle land his dad and his grandpa and all that so i guess that kind of started long time ago but we we never really was like close close talking and hanging out a whole lot. Every christian won't get up and get him a good job. I'm like well yeah. I tried to get on that day. He got got hired and named they will get up there. He was moving out fair and quick he had loan career at about. They're a very impressive the way he picked up on it and was just dedicated worker everybody on that boat you may love sure did enjoy or work on the same boat together now. We've we didn't not on the same boat at the same time. Well we've seen each other. We might be out of the fleet or something like that. Everybody can on the margins together and stuff like that if you were one of the people that noticed that the the move is that correct yeah 'cause we're pretty much. They weren't assigned parking spots. We always call it the same parking spot 'cause it was the best one with only camera turned out that the cameras weren't even working yeah the he had a regular spot there. We're we're always in the same spot just about and or is the same as in egr out there and then eh when i found out of course i talked office and sewn boat and that's all the money to come back so i did. I left up orange back and rental car and <hes> of course the same spot and just something to think about backed up. There was other <hes>. I've never seen it. They would be no reason. Can i talk down there by that sense as just one thing that wouldn't bid makes sense especially after what i heard from as mitchel out there on the <music> we worked on just started running his mouth because he we didn't know a new crash. It was the day of crew change. He was just showing up to the boat. He showed probably midday or so. We were on the motor vessel. Kelly smells though we worked on. We were standing in the locker and hayes of course no had a drug addiction. He was messed up when when he showed up to the boat that day and you'd said he'd been drinking but we were over in the deck locker and it was even time when when i was waking up from my evening shift started talking about the the incidental christian and he started talking about christian being murdered. He said that <hes> it just wouldn't happen that way. I think we need house kind of listen. <music> set there on the freezer of the deck locker is let him go. He told him basically that the it was talking about it so it wasn't supposed to go down like that. He said that started staring at him. He's where are you from house and he kinda put two and two together the new person and he wouldn't really talk too much more. That's what i got from. It said was there and it wasn't supposed to happen like that. Whatever that means. I don't know if he he was talking about of his head or if it was actual effect true but he needed to be talked to about and asia. I don't know if they had a issue with christian or dylan. Whitley had them up to something. I don't know how you can get that much into he just said their names and they were there and it what's supposed to happen like that and that's when he to put the two together but christian in house stared at him. I wouldn't say nothing to add. Just let them tell they knew he had dealt to aid said something on there like he had to guilty about it so you wouldn't be talking about it if he didn't. I mean that's kind of a hard hard thing to make up and try to shoot a story to this stranger. I mean we kind of we talked at work and yes new the same people from reading book might on the world. Would you come with that kind of context in that out. There is like hold on and that's a big big thing just didn't make sense that he would we do that and then he would lock up to just like everybody else and it wasn't long after that that he didn't work with us anymore didn't even make it like a couple of days and he was fired once again. We were on the boat. He got off saying he has like kidney stones or something we were in chicago. Hey got off the boat saying he needed to go to mercer room so he they win. Somehow just didn't come back for like two or three days and he ended up getting jumped and beat up and something like that and he had go home and they didn't work ignored anymore. I don't know if he quit or got fired or what it was and the office did something with them. On that and i never spoke to him again. He wouldn't answer calls text me like that. I was earlier this year. Last year he <hes> he had overdose passed away and it is sad but he had a lot going form. If you ever just get off the stuff just eighty moten. He had a very nice family stuff like that. I they get the best and i don't know did it or not. But that's what now at the time this information should come as a shock to ray but the reality was the information only helped her to finally make sense of what mary had told her years ago she now had a second story which again implicated two men and not only that but one of them was the exact same man that mary had identified years prior. This was a game changer because there were now two persons of interest to consider in in addition to whitley and dylan and along with that a new possibility to consider which was at more people could have played a role in this of course ray would go. I want to tell bill but this information and according to ray bilbo would acknowledge that he was made aware and was looking into it but as time passed that didn't seem to be the case and then months later another tragedy happened in meridian when hayes died from an apparent overdose and in his death any chance of ever hearing his side vanished as kelly stated what hey said to him was alarming and that it's not really something you just fabricate and throw out there. He wasn't implicating that these men committed some petty crime or even that they had information about this crime. He was implicating that these men may have been involved in a murder. That's a big claim. Kelly was never able to make sense of why hey said what he did. He tried several times to follow up with them but hayes never answered his calls. Ray thinks that the information hayes was holding onto was eating at him and believes it's unlikely the kelly would have been the only person he would have talked to and maybe that will prove to be true. We'll see but in the meantime the question is how do you even make sense of all this. If all this information is true that changes a lot out of things and adds more questions to this growing list mainly. Why would anyone else have been there. What would be anyone else's motive to hurt christian. And what do they mean when they say it wasn't supposed to go down like that. I asked ready to share what she thinks about all this well alight. We've talked avow i. I think that there's something bigger at play <hes> what that is. I don't know <hes> i mean i mean obviously i think drugs are involved in some way shape or form. I myself personally think that to some degree it was planned and that they wanted to christian home. They needed money. They owed people money. I think they probably thought christian had more money than he probably rolling did like in the bank or wherever i think they intentionally lord him home quite frankly i think that they went to vicksburg and got christians gun out of his jeep where he kept it and christian probably walked in there never thinking a million years that his gun would be there are athletes when they say things went terribly wrong i think they've tried to rob him and for some reason xanthos the christian which is hand over some money and chretien being chretien would've fought them. He wouldn't have just given him his money. Because in his mind dan he could be a mall. He was scared vini body and there's a consistent pattern of drugs every single. One of them have a history of a significant drug problem either currently or in the recent past again. I just think that something went terribly wrong and then two years slider all of a sudden you know as tale semi. He's working with on the boat that was at the apartment in kiel christian. Basically what he said was to kind of. Give a little bit more clarity to that statement is that they were it just kind of shooting the breeze on the boat and hayes starts saying how he knows all this stuff about what happened to christian <hes> and when the person who made the statement made him aware that he was from meridian to do a new christian then all of a sudden. He's you know kind of shut down and was like near mind then. He said that he didn't put that in a statement amount but he told us that he said you know you. Have you told your dad us and he said yes. I'm going to make right and and but nobody's ever talked to that person. That's what i think happened now. I may be totally alls but that's just from what everything all the information nation that we're getting from trying to piece together that appears to be a consistent <hes> you. We know that was at the apartment. We know that he had somebody with him but now but now nobody listen to you as you know. This is a case that has spanned over five years now in that five five years there has been countless suspects who have gone either question or on question countless pieces of evidence multiple investigations stemming from different agencies. These changes in public officials arrest warrants forensic specialists interview after interview statement after statement and much more and that's all before we ever even got involved in twenty eighteen. I've done my best to lay everything out in a way so that you can follow along and i'm sure i haven't done that perfectly because at the end of the day simply put this case is a total cluster. I recognize that early on from the immense amount of content surrounding it and it obviously didn't help in anyway that christians case was never handled properly from the beginning. I also recognize that there are still tons and tons of questions that we don't have answers for but tips have been coming in and many have been willing to speak on and off the record. It's my understanding that many are fearful to come forward for whatever the reason may be and i respect that a- and you can remain anonymous but i ask if you know any information related to the death of christian andrea kyo. Please come forward reach out to us. It's not too late to do the right thing. We're continuing to learn new information. There's still a lot more to share with you and our upcoming episode. I'd like to discuss some more recent events which stemmed from what is still active investigation on our end. I myself am by no means a professional in that field but i do know someone who is for some <music> <music> <music>. Hi dennis didn't hear from you. I've been working on a story recently when i wanted to tell you about this but i was curious if you would would be willing to just calm to look over this case that i'm working on and mississippi i just could be a really big help in this us. You know i'll help you guys out but if you can send over the document albeit review awesome thank you so much feel family have pretty much kept the case alive on their own doing over the last few years and they shared everything with us and we're making a story of it. We're hoping keeping investigation a lot as well as long reach out to you. I know you probably don't have the time but i told the mother ray that you could convince you to take some time at least to go on a call with her at some point. I'll look at it. You know because i'm curious because you guys have asked i mean if i can help victims family. You know i will <music>. Culpable is a production of black mountain media and tender foot t._v. In conjunction with cadence thirteen executive producers dennis cooper jacob bozarth donald albright right pain lindsey and me mark memory additional production by whitney bozarth coordinate cooper mayor steadman and mason lindsey audio editing mm-hmm mixing mastering in sound design by resonate recordings. If you have a podcast or are considering starting a podcast of your own i urge you to check them out at resonate recordings dot com fi music and score by dirt poor robins cover art by drew our data. I want to extend a special. Thanks to my my kinds sheila. Why sake and lance black you can follow us on social media at culpable podcast show notes as well as bonus content can be found on our website culpable podcast dot com. If you enjoyed this episode please take time to subscribe rate and review. Your feedback is greatly appreciated suited and lastly. If you have any information related to the death of christian andrew please email us at tips at black mountain media dot net or call us at four seven zero three zero zero four nine one five. Thank you for listening and tune in for new episodes so it's every monday <music>.

mary i Ray dylan neom hayes mitchell Kelly christian whitley facebook attorney chretien american foundation Ray radiohead casey coleman kristen lee detroit suda rafer Christon mississippi
Time of Death | 9

Culpable

40:58 min | 1 year ago

Time of Death | 9

"Just a reminder for you this thursday we will be releasing another bonus q._n._a. Episode so please call in two four seven zero three zero zero four nine one five with any questions you have and remember to tune in on thursday. The following program contains distressing content and graphic details regarding suicide. This may be triggering survivors of suicide loss and those with lived experience. Please proceed with caution. If you're in crisis or having thoughts of suicide please call the national suicide prevention lifeline at one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five or tex talk two seven four one seven four one for more resources. Please visit the american foundation for suicide preventions website at af s._p. Dot dot org slash find support when i got back door in cash. I'd how's things like. I said they argued but they'd be find out some things laying in bed so i walked in there and she's dead. <hes> maybe his brothers his brothers rooms upstairs i believe is his brother's doing upstairs bedroom fairly olympic so onto the bathroom light on <unk> dorsey yard you start because i was yelling chris christie where you where you know. She still laid out on the bagel. I say chris chris yeah but that's what i was wanting to the house but knocked on the bathroom door yard to him a little bit hard nights in house like that's weird. Maybe ninety second showers you know so all downstairs i own the whittling whitman women. He didn't say nothing. Incheon on this applies online weekly was like i guess data sleep. I'm assuming because like i kind of sugar legitimate i said we would and should be achieved on senator. She's the mobile motor. Windbags lead us wanna walk back opinion not don't do a little bit harder to time christian yoga saying man. I'm not a little bit harder as a christian. You are here to check on. I adore. I look like my hair was down and i can see his boots and i looked up who's hunched over the bathtub and i wanna live <music> <music>. Take ah you may have already piece this together but the clip you just heard is from an interview with dylan swear square engine. It occurred just weeks. After shane's death the interview was conducted by investigators hired by the android accuse who have mentioned before the same ones who interviewed matt and jeff miller as well as the best buy employs while this audio was obtained back in two thousand fourteen the andrea cues never received a copy of it it it was just shared with us recently when it was discovered that the interview had been lost in the initial transfer files from the investigators to the family and while point out that that's a tragic mistake jake the important thing is we have it and we're gonna play it but before that it's important that we lay some groundwork because if you're following along trying to form an opinion of what you think happened on february twenty sixth were at a fairly critical juncture. If you remember where last episode left off i challenge you to really consider consider what dr arden had to say about the time of death because while his ultimate belief that the manner of death was homicide and the scene was staged as a suicide is critical. We cannot gloss over his other point of emphasis which is that. The death occurred hours before the nine. One one call was placed at four forty five pm. I want to read a section directly from his report to clarify the photographs from the scene and from the morgue strongly strongly suggests that mr andria kyo was in well-developed rigor mortis at the scene the time to develop strong rigor mortis varies but typically requires at least several hours and is consistent with a significantly longer interval on the order of four to twelve hours the morgue photographs indicate indicate that he was transported in the body bag and essentially the same position he was found namely bent at the waist and at the knees face down the photos ios also demonstrate that he had fixed liver mortis on the back of his right leg especially on the calf which is totally inconsistent with his positioning at the scene in which is right calf was facing up so blood should have drained away from that area by gravity the time for fixation of liver mortis is highly l. e. variable but is on the order of hours he had to have been positioned with his right calf facing down for some period of time for liver mortis to appear in and and fix on that surface in addition to indicating that his death occurred much earlier this shows that his body had been moved inclusion conclusion his time of death was much earlier than the nine one one call calling into question the account given by the people who made that call uh that change in time of death becomes vital when you recognize that up until this point everything we know about that day has been viewed through the lens that christian died around three forty five pm the time listed on the death certificate while art and could not give an exact time to our he is confident that it would have occurred well before three forty five and we were able to narrow down that time frame a little more when a tip came through from a woman with some information related to this i lived and the willow ridge apartments apartments for a few years and i was living there at the stay at home mom on february twenty six twenty fourteen and i had a routine with my son. I have a car or anything so it was almost always there and i would always put him down for a nap time anywhere from from eleven to like one or two and i had just put him down for a nap and he had fallen asleep and he was weeping under a window and back bedroom when i was sitting in my living room and i clearly kurd allowed then shot which would honestly living meridian would hear gunshots somewhat frequently but this one really startled me because i could tell very close by i actually thought maybe was in the parking lot about apartment urban complex so rushed into the back bedroom and i took him away from the window just in case kind of of that mom panic when something happens and i took him into the bath brown <hes> in <hes> autumn story which would be the one room without windows and i just stayed there for a little bit until i didn't hear anything for a while and then about an hour to two hours later which was around three with me. Oh we would go and check the mail and the mail boxes weren't at at the office but there are closer to the office and i would often stop by the office apartment <hes> for the apartments say hi to assassins we kind of so you know we knew each other so i checked our mail and then i went to the office and i said hey did you hear that gunshot really startled me and one of the elite working there but she had heard it to their offices actually further away than my input been so i i got. They didn't hear quite as clearly as i did but she we know that you heard it and so i assume that they had called the lease but i guess they didn't. I didn't realize until the next day when one of the maintenance crew check in the mail again and he stopped me and said hey you remember that gunshot heard. I guess a few apartments downs from you. <hes> there was a suicide and that was a laugh. I heard about anything really support for like a couple of years. So where exactly was your apartment like like. How close was it took christians into the right if you're looking at it front door her so i would have been on the same side of the street and it would have been just a few they're kind of townhouses but there's apartments on top and so i would have been just a few apartments down on the same side of the streets in a different building okay so would you feel comfortable giving an exact time that you heard the shot so my son would have been falling asleep so i mean i i honestly i can't say one hundred percent but my my best guess would. It would have been close three ish newness. No one ever contacted me at all. I was there all day. No one ever contacted me rather than i'm giving exact time. I'd like to suggest a window for the time of death. Arden says hours before the nine one one call was placed at four forty five and while the woman who heard the shot said that twelve thirty noon ish would be her best guess for when she heard it she could say with certainty that at the bare minimum an hour had passed likely actually two hours when she went to check the mail around three p._m. To err on the safe side working with arden's conclusion along with this woman's tip i'd suggest suggests that the window for christians time death would be between twelve pm and two p._m. Which is about two four hours before the original time of death that time disparity can make a world of difference when paired with the accounts given by whitland dylan but the tricky part is the earning just how much of a difference it makes because while we know of several events that supposedly took place that day for the most part we don't have times to back them a couple of things we do like dylan's trip to the bank around on twelve thirty and chick-fil-a around one but the same cannot be said for the majority of the events that were mentioned like the movies they watch in the apartment the naps they took christian and whitley's trip to the part and dylan's second trip out the best buy it's possible these things didn't even happen but if we take their word for it and assume that these things did happen. We have no way of knowing win because they were never asked to give times for anything which is astounding. What i'm saying here is an earlier time of death cannot explain what exactly happened that day but it certainly brings their alibis in the question and it offers a lot of different scenarios and possibilities to consider ring's mission is to make neighborhoods safer offer you might already know about their smart video doorbells and cameras that protect millions of people everywhere ring helps. You stay connected to your home anywhere in the world. So there's a package delivery or surprise visitor. You'll get an alert and be able to see here and speak to them all from your phone. Just recently. I received my ring security system in the mail and i have to say i'm i'm very pleased. I love the overall look and design of their products especially the cameras you can just tell the really well made even the packaging. They came in with sharp one of my favorite things about their system. 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Let's go ahead and revisit dylan's alibi once more this time through his interview that we acquired from investigators here. It is when you guys actually got back to the house that they had to go to. The time is up there. If you want you to tell me you know as much you remember what you i saw what you heard any activity because obviously there was nothing new on the beach. You believed that christian was going to shoot himself. Nothing resigned signed up ordinaries when he wanted to go to but to be honest. We got scare tactic to hurt because he wanted to be in control under relationship. This can get out again. That's the whole reason. I think the gun from him. Because i knew seemed to see somebody so mike. There's something like that. He'll like he was always like the happy go lucky. He always wanted to do the basis of ours. We're near lyon instead saw. It sided done it. We begun to hurt. She has much up orange times. You would listen to you on one hand just like. He said that you love me and she didn't say anything to him. He said he said one more time loud. She doesn't matter he said like relaxing. Do you love and you're clocking why behavior bag or whatever and he stuck his head seen the link light so hostile and that's kind of what she jumped up and said yes and then she i tried to grab at it but you kinda moved his arm back so she couldn't push she was saying down messed up on drugs. I don't see how she conver- in anything. I didn't let him whenever he always nine this law. He said well. I've only been out here to thinks. She starts screwing up. It doesn't matter what you he always called her and stuff like it was nothing for them to argue and yell and scream and fighting voice an environment our way out kind of like the baby the always ask the chick see what she's doing and like one night she was texting again. This is a long time. She was taking the guy in the gats christian mahinda in like. I don't reviewed by exit christmas. He told me three o'clock in the morning said pastor houses evening. Get out of bed and trump. Has nobody the more time nobody's come back around towards her. I'm a little more to you know drive. I wouldn't but nobody that i don't know how he found this out and find out the borders must be over there and driving his truck down the dirt right and she lived on harden walter williams. I voted from choose really odd. She didn't care about a bunch of statements. She said. I just freeze six thousand a month. What am i worried about how she worried about anchor. Anybody says she lewdness food that we know that we know that all here. She didn't know about that when you guys got back to the house and i really stress any any louisville's because there's so much information out there that you as we go through this thing might help us figure out what will happen. No we know she was stealing money. She was having western united as account when he know about tilt there at the very end. She was taken bill money that him and his brother were leaving for her pay. The grant in two months behind on when you guys got back from santa rosa <hes> of course drove during afraid home. You stop ads like you said. Put some fewer drags the same thing. We'll see grown up the money thing about known now you have. What are you talking about. He says you can tell when he's joking series but like he always joked about stuff like nice and then we just change subject you're talking about. Houses in the philippines was always joking rare boss. The house has a beautiful filthy wondering buy houses cheap. That's what we start talking about the money so you know we never brought it back up and until and unless are arguing stuff like in state you can see that i'll live the i get food. He wanted to get the spine big-city. It broke vixen. He brought them back. When y'all got back when they were argument. Here's a little while in the ordinance but then at the door closed and you know commandment business now they want to get in there and ordinary the first thing she said when i when she saw me she said with but what dr is me off certain parts alert than march uses sludge wages they just didn't like whenever arguing is yelling to hear what he was saying and she thinks she she was caught. Everything he was sucked up she seen it and they're arguing back and forth back and forth and like the door closed and you don't and he just opened the door where few minutes late and he said phone and smiling because he knew i work on i working on seems like an fakes and anyway they're still arguing whenever that now as i you know i'm going to be a long time now. I don't wanna being way we are arguing. I said he gave me his court. In light. I was talking about it and then that's when he brought the money again he was like i won't you take on. I was like for what that's why even they wouldn't let me touch. You can't just go in on this my friend. I wanted one so i know when does but now just like a and i'll say well. He gives me his car. Janina handed me the phone for that as a whole money thing and he yeah you know go to the bank fires and eighteen hundred phase of will become sadly and i get to the bank and i told him i'm already muslim take his money form <hes> he's sitting text messages of this information takes them when i got there. I said i'm here ear. You really wanted this is up to you. He's like yeah and he sent me on information not counting back now. Let and they're not going to take the money out. They told we are good news. I would like you wouldn't stretching it. You just not lighter something a._t. And t. and there's this long online since i work on look born and like i started thinking about it floated up to one little charges of and like you still can boot load and like we're the apple comes on and off the newest wrongs batteries so i lived there and when i went to chick fil i actually had a buddy. That saw me i. I stopped in park pompton per se i i go back to the and the sicom argument. She has out on the couch couch. He's sitting on the couch with cider. Bring all the food in we start separating acknowledge that and she was just sitting there. I didn't like i. I don't wanna be i wanna be so. She took her drank in like this counter behind the couch. She just pulled up there any kind of looked better way to eat your food and she says something wasn't like nothing crazy. She said something years like started being a bitch nature food and basically we a they can say anything. I started lay down somehow they managed to get into the bedroom and i don't know maybe they're talking already started those. I want to start it does off. I noticed that christians walking out of the bat the bedroom door. She was riding miami where y'all going. He said we'll take a little rod now. I feel asleep how long i slept like i don't know how long they been back our good. He was at the foot of the couch where i was sleeping at my feet. I don't know say can't stand t._v. Google the you know movies than keep playing the whole front thing it's like he was just watching an answering cigarette well. She was passed out in the bed. You know we talked for a brief minute. I wasn't that long. I i can't take that on in sleight alan. Welcome sleep now. I'm going to bet looks themselves. They need on acting own best by sitting there and i go back to speakers and a gotten i used to work about people talking speakers and use kind telling you what i what i needed when he didn't i started lameness out in and is like the security man watches all the cameras and still going in for a minute and then this one. I hit back when i got back. I opened the door. Uh couch they fix things like say. They argued with a b. Find out maybe they fix things and he's laying in bed so often eric. She's passed out in bed. He's not an and maybe he's in his brothers. His brothers rooms upstairs. I believe is his brother's room and go upstairs bedroom olympic their inside. The bathroom light was on so i kind of knuckle dorset the yard strike because i was yelling chris christie where you were you. Were you gonna. She moved with a steel laid out on bail. I say chris chris nationally but that's what i was wanting to house knocked on the bathroom door yard saying to him in just a little bit hard. I was doing house like that's weird and maybe ninety second showers. You know maybe just let me get here. So i walk down stairs. Women continue. We check on well. This is on our weekly was like i guess dare sleep. I'm assuming because i i kind of sugar legitimate i said whitland and sugar and this is the check on mobile kinda rolled over with sleep. That's back pain knocked on doors a little bit harder. The time say christian in yoga too man something that i'm not a little bit harder as christian are you are here is a note back to my house awesome. May i got checked on the door. I looked like my hair down. His boots and i looked up news hunched over the bathtub just the way he used to say. They're like a what what blew my mental images this like the fire slight two weeks every single night. I get sleep. I said yeah. I want to know what happened it is it's like a motion really traumatizing knowing that i will get much one day drop as basin. Jason seemed down. There is crazy because that was one of my buddies alyssa free in two thousand eleven in this in this downward downward spiral of what he had to get in like that hit me hard but tricia hidden even harder doesn't how close to the union was like that. That was my running bud. I didn't do any buying the boat and when he got back from my our day was just go to the beach. You just smart still get on the boat eh after doing that for so long. You get small mirrors from it and my tears. You know you'll never be able to talk to anybody really was found happened. I tell you this right now. Don't make giants us give this. She did play a role. If that is what happened with the ho- sleeping deal macron's of but i knew and when she sat and smoke a cigarette regardless of what you believe happened on february twenty six there is no doubt the doctor warns conclusion on the time of death wins a different way of looking at this and i believe the science did make some sort of impact in this case based on what followed shortly after the release of knox and arden's reports in january twenty seventeen a judge issued arrest warrants for whitley and dylan for murder detective j arrington with n._p._d. Help get the warrant sign of course ray and todd haad were relieved because it seemed that finally some resolution would come from all this but after several days and several calls to police nothing was happening. No arrests were made eventually. It was explained to ray that they were not going to serve the warrants that a decision had been made to instead. Let the case go to a a grand jury which meant bilbo the d._a. Would present the case but before it ever made it to jerry bilbo recused himself from the case on february twenty-second 2017 bilbo sent his recuse a letter to the attorney general's office which meant that he would no longer be required to enforce any legal action in the case the responsibility of presenting the case to a jury would fall into the hands of the attorney general's office and shortly after this in october. We're at twenty seventeen. The case was presented to a jury and the case was no build meaning. The charges were not sufficiently supported by the evidence presented to warrant prosecution prosecution. The nobil was not made known to the ngos who found out after the fact through the rumblings of some other people who caught wind of the news. Here's ray and brother chris's take on the matter really bill by does not control the police department. How it's supposed to work is yes. The police department is supposed to do their job. Make arrest the d._a. Does not control who they arrest and who they don't arrest typically all of that is done i and the d._a.'s never involved in they take that information once the rest is made then the investigation is given to the d._a. To determine if it's going to go to the grand jury or be prosecuted excuted or whatever and i've talked to several people who have been on grand jury here and that's kind of how they say you can definitely tell what he wants to be indicted in what he wants to be not old and nine times out ten. That's how they go. They don't question it. They just vote to go that way because he's telling them you know we don't have enough to ever win this case and from what i've been told quite frankly that's legal. I mean unless you just prove that it would be almost impossible to do because grand juries won't talk to you but <hes> i mean that's just how the system is this whole secret system of a grand jury. We're in mississippi or in lauderdale county. There's no court reporter order. There's totally no record of what goes on in that grand jury. We told them we would pay for a court reporter. For just christians part. They said couldn't do it. It was secret what goes tone you know. We asked if we could just do a tight recorder and type it no secret. You can't know we ask. Could we speak to the grand jury no can't do that. That's not allowed actually can be allowed. They have vast leeway. It says in the wall that you know they can call witnesses. They can do anything they want. Don't they could have led us to rangers. They want it to but no way going to do that. How often do you you know that warrants are going to be issued for the arrest of two people and a d._a. Says no less indict them. I well how you going dot com. If you never question question and i did put the case up for indictment to the grand jury he recused himself said he was too close to christian christian. That was his public statement. What people need to realize is it took him three years and a lot of pressure for him to recused himself and he tried to explain it away like it was just that was the right thing to do well if it was the right thing to do and it was that big they gave a and he was that close to christian. He should have recused himself three years earlier. That was a political move and that was that's all it was too once indictment has made it is up to the d._a. Whether or not they offer a plea deal or not when you have lawyers tell you that are friends of mine to tell you that they're representing criminals. A defense attorney tells me that he sitting there with his clot and the d._a. Comes in and makes a plea deal. Mike's aches and offer high you play guilty. We'll give you fifteen years and his client tells them no the d._a. Walks out of the room and he turns around and says are you crazy. You should get twenty five years and they're willing to give you fifteen and the criminal looks at him and says everybody knows that's bill bowes. I offer he'll come back when the criminals that you've got problems the day that bilbo retired. I don't know if it'll get any better and that d._a.'s office but meridian may not realize it but it was a good day hey from already and as far as crimes being punished. He's got a great record as my understanding. He's got a great conviction record but when you're making deals like that that i can understand why they rarely is there just a full blown trial meridian if it is the public doesn't know about it. It's not in the papers. It's not only news things every once in a while. They'll be a full blown trial. Some people say this a waste of taxpayers money. I think you're taking can justice out of the public's hands the way our system was designed. You're taking that out of their hands and putting in the hands of one person the d._a. This way too much power in october of twenty eighteen after thirty one years of service bilbo mitchell retired as district tourney and his assistant d._a. Cassie coleman was appointed by governor phil bryant per bilbo's recommendation but before we break away from bilbo. I like to go back and hit on something. I mentioned earlier the letter he wrote recusing himself from christians case. I'm going to read it in its entirety. The sledders is written by bilbo mitchell address to attorney general jim hood dear jim. I'm in need of your help help again. There is a case here in meridian the needs to be presented to a grand jury and i feel that our office has a conflict of interest that has been created by the deceased family. Uh christian andrea kyo died of a gunshot wound to the head a few years ago. The death was originally investigated by the meridian police department who who ruled that the death was the result of suicide. The case was then investigated by trent weeks and the mississippi bureau of investigation who also ruled ruled that the case was a suicide. Danny welch from your office was also involved in the investigation and should be knowledgeable of the facts of the case christians family never accepted the suicide findings and feel that christian was murdered. They have gone as far as hiring private. Investigators doctors and other experts verts from around the country in an effort to prove that this wasn't a suicide. There are a number of reasons that our office should not handle. The presentation of this case is to a grand jury number one. The family has expressed the opinion that the meeting police department and i are trying to cover up or protect someone who they thank killed christian number two i coach christian and soccer when he was a young man and became a clean it with the family during that time number three christians mother was my son's nurse practitioner at psychology associates hayes made the comment to her that he knew christian didn't kill himself hazmat that consoling comment but she used that comment to say that my son knows something and i'm covering it up to protect someone number or four christians grandfather is our justice court judge who we have to work with on occasion in number five. I'm attaching a letter. The christian's mother wrote to the police department questioning my integrity and dealing with this case because of all of these things there is no way the family will ever be satisfied if the grand jury returns the suicide opinion. If the case is presented by my office general i've worked on this case ace as hard as any i've ever had my relationship with christian made me want to be sure that every rock was upturned. I've read the file over and over. You're i've talked to 'em p._d. An n._b._a. investigators i've talked to the pathologist and first responders and even all the way to jacksonville florida to talk to private investigators investigators that have been hired by the family. All of my efforts still show that this was a suicide. It's frustrating that the family doesn't trust me but that is a fact it isn't going to change my request is that u._s. Danny welsh or some other investigator to review our file and that you appoint stanley or some other attorney to to present the case to a grand jury here meridian thank you for your consideration of my request yours truly bill mitchell. Uh bilbo listed many reasons as to why he felt his office should not handle the presentation of christians case that he used to coach christian and soccer the the christians grandfather is a circuit court judge and you also mentioned the families believe that he and n._p._d. We're actively trying to cover up or protect someone he also attached the letter ray wrote questioning his integrity dealing with the case but one reason he listed that stood out to me was the one he gave which references son has reason was quote. Christians mother was my son's nurse. Practitioner at psychology associates hayes made the comment to her that he knew christian didn't kill himself hazmat that is a consoling comment but she used that comment to say that my son knows something and covering it up to protect someone wall ray cannot share what all hey said her about the case due to patient confidentiality. I think i have an idea as to what it may have been about because is ray wasn't the only person that hayes mitchell shared information with regarding the death of christian andrea kyo. It was the day of crew change. We're on the motor vessel kaley that was but we worked on. We were standing in the locker. They were even to route one waking up from my evening shift and he was asking to be working at night. He started talking about the incident christian. This is all what hayes told me culpable the production of black mountain media and tender foot t._v. in conjunction with cadence thirteen executive producers are dennis cooper jacob bozarth donald albright pain hayne lindsey and me markman additional production by whitney bozarth corny cooper meredith steadman and mason lindsey audio editing mixing exciting mastering in sound design by resonate recordings. If you have a podcast or are considering starting podcast of your own i urge you to check them out at resonate recordings dot com fi music and score by dirt poor robins cover art by drew bar. Damn i wanna extend a special. Thanks to mike hines sheila why sake and lance black you can follow us on social media at hope podcast show notes as well as bonus content can be found on our website website culpable podcast dot com. If you enjoyed this episode please take time to subscribe rate in review. Your feedback is greatly appreciated and lastly. If you have any information related to the death of krishna andrea. Thank you please email us at tips at black mountain media dot net or call us at four seven zero three zero zero four nine one five. Thank you for listening and tune in for new episodes every monday sunday <music> <music>.

whitland dylan dr arden chris chris attorney mike hines chris christie ray bilbo mitchell Incheon mississippi hayes mitchell soccer american foundation senator mr andria kyo whitley willow ridge
10 Facts About Physician Suicide and Mental Health [60 Sec Psych]

The Carlat Psychiatry Podcast

03:30 min | 8 months ago

10 Facts About Physician Suicide and Mental Health [60 Sec Psych]

"The day on sixty seconds site and facts about physician suicide and mental health. This short episode covers ten points from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. The link to the document is in the description. Please share it far and wide number. One suicide generally has caused by the convergence of multiple risk factors the most common being untreated or inadequately managed mental health conditions. Were thinking depression substance use and severe stress at the top number. Two an estimated three hundred physicians die by suicide in the US every year. And we don't know what the impact is of the current pandemic number three physicians. Who TOOK THEIR LIVES? Were less likely to be receiving mental health treatment compared with non physicians who took their lives even though depression was found to be a significant risk factor approximately the same rate in both groups number four the suicide rate among male physicians as one point four one times higher than the general population among female physicians. The relative risk is even more pronounced two point two seven times greater than the general female population number. Five suicide is the second leading cause of death in the twenty four to thirty four age range accidents are I never six. Twenty eight percent of physicians during the course of their residency experience a major depressive episode versus seven to eight of similarly aged individuals in the US general population number seven among physicians risk suicide increases when mental health conditions go unaddressed and self-medication occurs as a way to address anxiety insomnia or other distressing symptoms although self medicating mainly with prescription medications may reduce some symptoms. The underlying health problem is not effectively treated. This can lead to a tragic outcome number. Eight in one study twenty three percent of interns had suicidal thoughts however among those interns who completed four sessions of web based cognitive behavioral therapy suicidal. Ita Shin decreased by nearly fifty percent number. Nine drivers of burnout include workload work inefficiency lack of autonomy and meaning and work and work home conflict number ten unaddressed. Mental health conditions in the long run are more likely to have a negative impact on a physician's professional reputation in practice than reaching out for help. Early it's heart rending. How so many of our colleagues are so overwhelmed and some of them suicidal and some of them acting on the suicidal thoughts we at Carlisle want to do whatever we can to support our colleagues recruit. Your village recruit you tribe. Get your people to call and connect to the one that you're worried about. We find that statements are easier than questions. So for instance you might WanNa ask you see more quiet or preoccupied lately or you look tired and have less energy and wait for them to respond or work is predicated on practical actionable advice and we hope that this helps our colleagues. Please reach out when you need help.

American Foundation for Suicid US depression major depressive episode Ita Shin Carlisle Twenty eight percent twenty three percent fifty percent sixty seconds
Athena Protection Podcast  Episode 4

PodcastDetroit.com

48:55 min | 1 year ago

Athena Protection Podcast Episode 4

"You're listening to the PODCAST DETROIT visit. WWW dot I'd passed Detroit Dot Com for information. All right good afternoon. It's Carl and My partner here. Dan would have data protection. It is November the ninth Two Thousand Nineteen and a pretty interesting present topics today but Before we get into that want to give our sponsors the chance to shut us out with your sponsors. So tell us a little bit about data protection action how you can reach us. The protection is a security company that provides armed and unarmed armed and unarmed security services. We also provide AH private investigation services long you can reach us on our website at. Www Dot Athena protections dot com. And you you can reach us on our phone number which is one eight hundred nine five one four eight six six one eight hundred nine five one four eight six six. Okay you can also excuse me but you can reach us on all social media at Dana Protection Dot com or at the protection service. Excuse Services Yep so that's awesome so a check us out like I said. I'm all social media. Twitter facebook instagram. You too and I'm sure something else down down the road but anyway what's on your mind today. We're GONNA talk about today. We are going to start off talking about suicide. What and we're also going to talk about post traumatic stress reasons? I'm bringing this up is because a couple reasons. Okay well first. Day is the day before the Marine Corps Birthday. A Marine Corps veteran simplified. All the marines out there that. LISTEN TO US Andy. Veterans Day will be on Monday absolutely and suicide. Aside is an issue In the armed services. And it's something I just wanted to cover us a topic that's near and dear to my heart okay and You know we employ away veterans and we work with veterans all the time and got veterans other other veterans and family so. I think it's something that we need to talk about. Most definitely and you know over beyond on Veterans Day just going into the holiday season. We all know how back you'd be for people around so great topic right. Yup just families in general so I want to talk about Something that I got in this is from the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention Prevention briefly. Kind of talk about Department of veteran affairs and some Stats they got on a veteran suicide state. Veterans are commit suicide at a rate one point five times greater than a non veteran population Over six thousand veterans die by suicide each year twenty sixteen over fifty eight percent vetera- suicides were among veterans older than fifty four and in a rate suicide between the ages of eighteen and thirty four have been increasing over the last ten years. Interesting Sodas Just some basics on suicide just anybody has ever had to deal with it or ever had the thoughts of suicide You always Wanna a reach out and talk to somebody usually. There's always some warning signs that we'll get into in a little bit but okay Personally I've had not veteran. Well actually it was. One of them was veteran Commit suicide I WANNA earn that. He was in his thirties at the time So He's in that that age that age bracket that they talking about So it out there. If anybody ever feel like you know Oh you don't have anybody to talk to there's tons of resources out there That you can reach out to that we will provide following the podcast that you can call call and talk to somebody and and or get information get the proper council and helped you may need okay most definitely a like I said a topic that We all if we haven't personally dealt with it know someone WHO's don't would lose family MEM- family member or close Fran or something like that to suicide and Like you said there are some warning signs and hopefully today we can help someone To help someone else out or help someone feels like they don't mm Have Opportunity to get help. Solve some numbers that we got here. Knees are just some A couple of steps that they presented the suicide is the tenth leading cause of death in a US. Okay and twenty seventeen. Eighteen forty seven thousand. Americans died by suicide can twenty seventeen. There was an estimated one point. Four million attempts. You've got some additional facts. This was from twenty sixteen twenty money seventeen hundred seventeen twenty seventeen additional facts. We got Men three times three and a half times more likely than women Highest rate is actually middle aged white men they produce on here on average. There's one hundred twenty nine suicides per day and firearms account for fifty percent of all suicide deaths. Which is why we always want to promote safety and security and make sure that you know people? Just get the help that they need absolutely disposal some staggering numbers as US man. We we gotta learn how to Express ourselves reach out and talk on the right. I don't want to go down that rabbit hole right now but when it comes to US Man and doing a good job of communicating. I'm sure ladies McLeod for that but as well as you know go onto the doctor on a regular basis aces or you know seeking help when you need it now. We were a big. You know we have big shoulders and were our pride on no shoulders and sometimes it's okay for you to say you need help. Sure the people out here who love you it will tell you that most definitely right so let's go offer some of those warning signs of factors for suicide prevention right. So we'll we'll talk about suicide today. which by most definitely a great topic to talk about some of the things that lead to suicide? I was just looking over some of the notes here which was very instant interest. Just saying is not really one single cause of four suicide most often it occurs. Went on stresses as well as our health issues create certain experiences. I think as well as a people like to talk about depression. Russian is being a common condition associated with suicide and also just It goes a lot of time. Even a depression goes undiagnosed or untreated. You know people say they stressed it and depressed rest and whatnot but don't really know how to go about treat nat- or get some help with it and Conditions like that along with Substance substance problems. You know so you know you. Lousiana drugs alcohol. Most definitely can increase those fellas in this important to note the most people who are actively managed mental health which we use our management on that say typically gone to engage in life Successfully but again talking about some of the warning signs Just one of them is the way that people talk For persons talking about killing themselves fillon hopelessness or having a no reason season delivered. We also hear people saying he's like just being a burden to others or fill in trapped upped unbearable pain and then some of the behaviors to when we talk about that behaviors like especially if you see Or have dealt with a paying for event you lose a family member you some traumatic happen lose a job most definitely one that you can tear some people and to fill in hopelessness And then you say with the nose behaviors maybe increasing use of alcohol drugs looking for ways to end their life such as searching online methods for withdraw from activity somebody who normally is active with friends and family. Maybe now they're no bit more withdrawn and so many times I just I just WANNA stop on their four minutes so many times of her people make statements like such and such her from him in weeks and you know all reached out someone They respond you know they trip interact and finally as we like to say but sometime we got to be a little bit more investigative the gate and and take off that looking at yourself taking it personal hat and say hey maybe I need to reach out that is person and you know that. Ain't answer. Maybe I need just knock on the door. I deal with the end upset about that but I gotta come and check on. You know my brother my sister my you know whoever it is you you know if you you have people in your life that are doing things outside norm like that go check on them. Go check on your people But most definitely some other ones asleep in too much or too little Best one that we take our help for granted we gotta get that rest. We are like say if you you sleep. You can't get that money and you know me. Detroit Hustler we always on our grind. But Hey this body is a machine and you gotta take care of it and part of the maintenance on this machine is most definitely a getting some rest Dan. Let's talk about you. Know another worn Assan is to move people who considered suicidal often display one or more to follow him moves. We talked about depression but anxiety. We talked a little bit about las interest in bangs. Hangs up irritability you know quick to go off to handle something. That may not be that person's character even if you think it is character still some some net you WanNa look at it and and maybe assessments that maybe some concerns there So does the some of the things earnings data most definitely some warning signs. I think one thing Um consider is if somebody tell you or they showed the size. It's it's okay to ask them if they thinking about committing suicide. It's okay the let them know that it's okay. If they not okay and Gurgaon point you also want I wanna know if they got a plan if somebody talking about suicide and you want to know if they got a plan or not you want to know how far along they thought this out in the process and you want to always always get them. Some help don't commit to secrecy. If somebody tell you they thinking about committing suicide you know. This is a big issue just in our community in general and just something that I wanted to touch on briefly today Moving forward I would like to get a couple of professionals in here where we can death in you know we can talk about suicide from from a clinical or depression or you know different mental health conditions from Clinical standpoint where they would be able to give us some more information more soda me and you can. Is it up here and talk absolutely definitely the topic right for this. Time of year is valid so something else since we talk about the military in general we WANNA talk about post traumatic stress a little bit okay Post traumatic stress comes from being in in just as a stress triggered event so a lot of times we compare you know post traumatic stress to the military Home just me and myself going through. IRAQ M B N. N You know that kind of environment for eight months It definitely gave me some post traumatic stress that I didn't even really realize I had had pointed out to me so I went. It does happen when you This year or once you got back home. I didn't really pick up on and until when I got home. You know when you around a bunch of people and we all under distress every day You know y'all kind of work and feed off of each other and kind of deal with each other but interest when you get home. That's that's when the the the changes in your mood the ear ability. You know those things Kinda pick up and you know your family noticed the changes in you so like when I came home I could tell you like I was extremely irritable. Extremely Short I remember constantly being told by people. I'm not in the Marine Corps boss. meow row you know and I just I just had no patience at all for people doc. we were right up the road. I remember being a just cautious all the time. Just hyper vigilant it. Just looking around at everything looking at trash bags looking at things that you know was don't really mean anything to the normal citizen but to me it presented some kind of danger even though I was at home. Okay so then just in my temper you know I was. I was just just quick trigger more than us one. I'm kind of a laid back guy. You consider me to be as Asian and relaxed and chill. No no patients patients real quick to get angry real quick. WanNa go violent. You know drinking too much doing all that when I came home just went really picking up on it okay when I came home I just thought you know I'm having a couple of drinks after work or you know a magazine for me. So simple the task done. But it's the way I was talking. It's the way I was moving and the way I would get angry over any anything okay. Like one day I was was a cousin. Came over to use the bathroom and we almost got into a fight about it. Is that my mother's house and I'll tell him. Don't just come over here to use the bathroom like it turned into an issue. You know win. It shouldn't have been an issue and I was. That's me you know just dealing dealing with the circumstances of what I have been through and not really knowing you know how to handle it and not talking to nobody about it. So that's why I always say if you got some issues or you've been Through some kind of combat or something or you've been in that arena and you come home and as you know a lot of it is you know if your family pick up on it. Don't be too prideful to get some help and talk to somebody building and you know hopefully this. This is if there's one person out there here at and can assess data because you really took us on a journey through a back coming home. Was this something that was was immediately. getting back home The stress way you handle things was something that you the noticed. I mean. I'm sure you didn't notice it then but was a something that looking back on it. There was immediate once you were home or was it gradually you know we ended up at work. It kind of popped up one day. I worked when we saw talking after deployment. We all you know we. You know you go on leaving when you come back to your base and you know we always sitting around talking you know we have some commonalities among how we were being talked to at home. I mean what we were doing at home. Okay and you know we start exchanging notes and started you know realizing that we had changed a little bit or you know everybody was saying you know you're irritable or you know your testy or you short patience and things like that I think think and I'm going to compare my police experience to a military police department. We kinda get get to say we kinda get to distress or d you know Kinda get you know the work at a day off you at the shift you know. We talked about Choir practice last week where you know we all get together. We talk talk about what we went through that day. And you know how we felt about whatever situation we went through we drink and Then as you know is Kinda done with and we're able to move on other things okay and You know in a police department you your stress level this constantly up Dow you know you could be a high speed chase. You could be some kind of shooting or it could be you know. Some kind of gruesome murder scene or a suicide saying it could be all of these things in a within a week or sometimes you will get a couple of things in a day. You know. That's trying on you emotional on you and you know Oh you decompress at the end of the day but when you in theater and you overseas and you Anna would infantry battalion. de-stress level was heightened and different from police. Work you know is not just at eight hour shift. You are there all day. Twenty four hours a day seven days as a week months on end and that stress level is much much different than patrol. So I can't even imagine. Shout out to our veterans again. MM pappy veterans. And I mean just do not living conditions is just different overseas and you dealing with a lot more and I think I don't think we were prepared. Going in for what we would deal with mentally okay or I don't think the preparation ration- for going back home was proper. You know m being able to know what your which you may deal with. You know how you may be feeling. You know what I'm saying and how how you can cope with it and how you can overcome what you're dealing with. You know what I'm saying. They kind of just do like this brief and then if didn't you do a survey and if they find you to be to have some kind of PTSD and you go see somebody but it after you get get back home because within a week or so. They do the little answer these questions but his is so informal. You know what I'm saying cana-don't hit home for what you need the owner saying I think that instead of having that process where is you check off stuff in a box. You actually sit down and talk to somebody and kind of go over you know what you experience in how you feeling once you get home. And they don't really at the time and I'm talking ten years ago they didn't really do exactly okay so in some interesting stuff there most definitely a again with it being veterans day. Just for for anyone out there. That has a veteran veterinary life You know some topics that or some scenarios that you brought up just assessing yourself and even going back and sit down with your peers or other veterans and saying that consistent saying you know no one is you know someone has got a veteran in your life especially a veteran has been deployed. Keep these things in mind. This is some important stuff. Were someone out. Sodas that's veterans veterans as active duty or active duty military personnel or veterans. Because there's a lot of people and has deploy a lot of places and experienced many things things and they still haven't gotten help when I'm talking Vietnam and different errors absorb and they just dealing with it internally. Finally you know what I'm saying. They're not talking to people. Don't be afraid to talk to somebody. And get it out of your system and let people let somebody know what's going on appoint so I got four types of symptoms for PTA. The that I was looking up those would be just WANNA go over real quick too since we topic the Dan before we get into those topics just in case we had anyone that joined us late today. let's go over again how you can reach out to protection. You can reach Athena protection at our website. WWW DOT at the inner the Protections Dot Com. You can reach us on our one eight hundred number which is one eight hundred nine five one four eight six six or you. You can reach us on any social media outlet at Tina Protection Service. All right. Thank you for that so he was going to get into some of the symptoms right four type of symptoms. They got here is intrusion symptoms and that's unwanted distressing memories a traumatic event recurrent trauma or related nightmares. Aw Flashbacks and attempts emotional distress psych election psychological reactions to trauma reminders. Okay oh I can entail you. One day this happened to me recently or something that happened to me yearly. I'll tell you is during the holidays and nearest fireworks going off. It reminds me of gunfire at night in Iraq and I had a reminder like every year I think about that or One day I was yes. This is the strangest thing that probably ever happened to me. I was riding home one day and I was looking at my fall and okay. I was in the passenger. I see and I look up. Wasn't texting and driving. No I wouldn't take driving so I look up and I don't know where you and the way to scenario looks it look like I'm overseas somewhere and I immediately panic go up. You know what I'm saying. That happened to me last year or the year before. It was the first time I had ever experienced something like that. Were I felt like I was somewhere other than where I was at so interesting. Things are real and they do happen if people and nobody ever talks about it like I don't really talk about it that much out no open or where people just kind of deal with it. You know on my own not on my own because I do talk to people and I do go to counselling forward and I so I do see somebody about it. That is asking does best most definitely something that we have to do. Better right. Don't be afraid to ask for help. So what I want to do right now is I want to kind of turn it into our other thing that we do an asa foundation. Were okay about that so we have seen of Protection Foundation and what that is foundation a five hundred one. C Three and foundation is to support crime victims and so we're talking about. PTSD PTSD is not a singular military. Issue is something that regular civilians can encounter in have from any kind of traumatic event event. And it's something that we need to address because a lot of times people may be suffering from PTSD from there and UH just regular life traumatic events and we're not addressing it or looking at it though symptoms properly so so these traumatic events can be being threatened with a weapon it could be physical assault sexual violence childhood physical abuse or accident. And those are just some of the things that Your civilian population being robbed. You know those kind of things Can trigger after some forms of PTSD or different levels of depression. That I don. I don't think that we properly look at this point right in many times Especially when you live in a stressful environment back. That mayor is being overseas as a active military personnel. Going through. They're going through the same as being someplace where you feel the stressful and the day to day life like you said you brought us some great examples of the threat of violence that you may encounter in a particular of area or and with you know. People you're going through dillon with violence in the home I think you touched on that a little bit also. Yes I did so a lot of that Oh can have some post traumatic stress. People can get treatment There's different kinds of therapy. That people can get For that kind of treatment and I just feel like with our work and what we're doing. I WanNa just bring some awareness. You know to into these things that you know that people are going to make sure that they get resources so that they can get some kind of help absolutely so anyone out there is less than a man this us. A topic does most definitely important of the people understand that just talking to somebody body. Nemo's saying it out loud somebody you know you never know. It's kind of like those situations when you in classroom set in an instructor says there's there's no such thing as a dumb question because I guarantee you the question that you enquirer. There's probably two or three other people there you you know. Have that same question. So if you're feeling like you're dino unfortunately feel like suicide is something that deposit need to do. Do you know talk to somebody. Please stressed out enough. Open up and talk to someone in for anyone Out there Family members or friends. You know talk terms do does those checks on your friends. Don't do take it personal. It's not they. Don't respond to you off all right so for the foundation so anybody. That's interested. I would like for them to reach out to foundation go to our website and a website. Light is Dina Protection F in D Dot Org and as Tina Protection F. as in Foxtrot in his in November D. as in Delta to dot. Org you can reach us at that website where we are working to support crime victims and provide Support to anybody that has been encountered in any kind of criminal act against them where they have been victimized. Currently we are working on domestic violence victims working with domestic violence victims and we are working to get a grant to Provide temporary shelter to the Domestic violence victims coming. So that's that's where our focus is right now So hopefully in the next few months we'll they'll be able to provide some information on that about how we our our progress with getting granted it followed shelter for something like that and we're always looking for people that The donatus world is that they again feel like any Middle Eastern as they were offering. If you can think of someone who could utilize days Services please reach out to us can stressed out enough. Yeah so what I WANNA do at this point. I want to kind of go over some of the the things that also trigger some mental health issues in the community. Okay and sexual assault trauma is one of them. Aw Symptoms of that include eating disorders sleep disorders lead to depression anxiety. It's all these two P. T. as is the and Italy to lying stealing truancy running away these different types of issues Against those type Behaviors a lot of time with what our younger people right and feeling like they For for them I think is not even necessarily embarrassment. Did some people may have with talking but for them. I think a lot of time. It's being scared the holiday season's coming up so we want to just a word of caution out there. Seventy four percent of sexual assaults happened inside at a hall of the person's home which in most cases they know who to perpetrator is usually. If somebody sexual assaulter they know who that person is sexually assaulted them is not a stranger so holidays. Coming up. Mindful of who you leave with children and be mindful of you know who you're with be mindful of what you're drinking who you drink them with and things like things of that Nature Day rape is a serious serious issue during the holiday season as well so you WanNa make sure that you're not out drinking and you leave your drink somewhere and come back and drink in in an you wake up somewhere that you didn't remember being so just for the holidays you know we want to just do this particular particular episode and Kinda talk about just some precautions that You want to look out for and as the suicide they take place during the holidays which is veteran related or sometimes not could be trauma within somebody's life cautious when You're out doing your shopping and there's people standing around there's people waiting on opportunities to take advantage of you so you want to look and look people in a face when you talk to them when you see him. Speak to him So that they recognize that you recognize them and absolutely you know you're able to describe who they were what they were wearing what they were doing what they were driving anything. You WanNa make sure you get those details on people while you're out if somebody's acting out of character when you out doing your shopping this holiday season and And that's just the room thumb in general but most definitely because the holiday season we tend to carry a little more money than we normally would. We tend to be a little more distracted with going out and during holiday shopping and visit and whatnot It must definitely making sure. Did you. careful out during the rose touched a little bit on on The PT The owner of the P.. T. S. we also did I say that right. I hope but his post traumatic stress. That's okay I'm sorry you know what it doesn't matter we wanna be correct but Up personally went through a car accident a few weeks ago and I find myself sometime now on Aerob- obviously you know I'm going to be a little more cautious but just really there has been a time or two where I've I'm like I'm reliving. That situation It could have been a lot worse Luckily I'm here and you know what would I major injuries But just when you said data can ahead me to thank you like you know. That's for me to fill those little things and I was not having me fill in round suicidal or depressed or anything like that but most definitely is hide. My focus on that but I do feel anxiety sometime rolled now right when it's busy and is Similar situations to when accident occurred so I can see how that could be a factor in someone into not ban Dan in the situation where it stars out you know but the anxiety and You know maybe you withdraw. Now you don't want to drive all the time and you start not won't do things and you start getting withdrawn. So don't every every stone unturned I guess the best way I can said don't don't discount. Don't if you're not feeling like you know you normally failed on just hack it up to you know money. Obviously money is a tough topic sparsely. There's little time of year utilities as well as No holiday shopping but some great points right so I can tell you just a situation waist with me I have for years okay. I was in an accident when my mother in another cousin was in the car and we were hit in the car spent out all the way across the row. And you. Yeah I was in the back seat goes in the passenger seat but as this accident mccutchen was in the backseat and we were hit on my side of the car and in the car spent across the street we spent about four or five times. I think or well and For years I would panic if I saw head lights on my peripheral vision not knowing that this is a potential condition from the accident. CARAJAS like I just for years. I would just had a panic whenever I would be just sitting at a light or you know occurs coming in if I'm looking this way and I see lights coming into just trigger something in me just like a low interest here so you know is is definitely real and you know my objective today was is just a kind of provide a little bit of awareness to Just what's going on out there just from a mental health aspect of Veterans Day is coming up again like I said and as is an issue in the veteran community of suicide and I just wanted to bring bring some awareness to it and also just awareness to PTSD and just for people to noted. This is not an isolated. A situation for veterans is any of US can GET PTSD from any traumatic event that we may experience absolute absolutely able to reflect a few personal experiences. Nutley just you know we just don't know what it is and we don't want to stigmatize the name either a doesn't mean any that you crazy and it doesn't mean cory exactly you're not gonNa take your guns away does not what it means. It just means you need some help and you got stress dress from us. The situation that you've been through so you know I don't want people to try to steer clear of a because of the name or they because they call it a mental title. Health condition is something you know that we experience we need help. We can get help and we can live and learn how to cope with it. Oh absolutely that's a great great point and again you know. We can't stress this enough. Do know there's someone out here who's been filling away Then wondering why they were so anxious when you're on the road or maybe filling some kind of way because they got robbed or They saw some traumatic or it was some type of sexual assault dares other people. Uh who have been through these things and unfortunately didn't reach out for help Because we talked about either being scared or you're filling in bears there is no such thing as being I should say no such thing as you shouldn't be embarrassed or scared ear to talk about these things brain. Get the help so yeah I guess that man seem like this is like I'm trying to bring Nisa wariness but I got so many stories of stuff is good. I'M A as is most definitely. Things did relatable essay sitting here Assessor myself a little bit because I went through a pretty traumatic car accident. Carbon told it out So these things someone else has been through a car accident. I'm sure within the last Three to six months and you may be wondering why you felt the way so you feel right and before it gets too far and a hand here knows talk about it today. Someone's definitely your stories helping someone hopefully today right not make the choice to thank the dissolution so continual. You've got another story like sure what is shared his at every. Cpl Class that we do because there's just relevant okay course so in Nineteen nineteen ninety nine. I was carjacked by a few people just multiple gunmen. There's night it was myself as somebody else's with me and Having a gun in my face and you know a life threatening situation didn't scare for me. The guy was little and it pissed me off more than I was afraid. Okay you're at the time when the time you know what I mean. I aw was never afraid but at the time I was so mad like that I was helpless. You know what I'm saying so like I it made amy feel somebody got the drop on me and I felt helpless about it. You know what I'm saying and I'll say angered and I felt like Uh when it was over I wanted to do something about it. You know what I mean and it you know. I think it's a good thing that yeah I didn't find him that night and I didn't find the car and I didn't find him probably be in jail so but I think what it led the to was my going to police department and wanting to help people he led to me wanting to do something for people people that's been in those Kinda helpless situation wasn't able to you know defend themselves or you know at the time like I didn't know what resources was available that I had at my disposal. So that's why we do what we do with the foundation a want people to be able to know what's available to him and also you know we provide that security because just because I want to help people and then you know I was on a police department because of what happened to me you know I wanted to get the bad gotta catch people that were doing bad things you know what I'm saying so I think that's you know Kinda let me you you know to where I am today in but like Oh. CNS situation. I think gave me more like a helplessness feeling and a lot of anger than it did like fear I don't think I experienced any stress from it. I mean I may have but It made me obviously hyper vigilant. Every time I went somewhere was always looking around making sure for that. I wasn't in that particular situation again. Absolute having something like that happen It it definitely changes you and your perspective on life and just how you can go about your day and how you look at things look at people period so oh I know and I know some people may react different to you. Know being in those kinds of situations but it it launched me into a warning to help people and and and be a force You know against you know people would ask committing crimes and and you know absolutely wrong so shout out to you for that We so many times we had this impression of a thing. More so with are a police officers in this. Current climate We don't have anywhere near the time to touch on it but just to talk about the stress level and you know we say things like Your pay to denote it do the job and I get it. You know we have some people out there that aren't qualified to do the job from forever reason but just to be able to touch base in just Canada. Let's think about My just our sales but others when we think about the level stressed it people were Delaware and not San. We justify any wrongs but try to have a better understanding on how we approach and deal with different individuals because grant if we have a heart at once we heard a thousand times. You don't know what somebody else is going through all right We say that sometime not not realizing that a big one is somebody might be going through something where they really feel like they not supposed to be here and and if we can look at people not for the just the outer part of it but look a little deeper. I think we can really maybe change the narrative even help somebody out right just for like just that police perspective and people telling you pay your salary and different things like that. I mean they deal with a lot and I mean we go we talking about you may have a domestic violence situation for message aways and you may deal with. Somebody's dead child in that family. And then you're going through all those emotions with those people and then you know you done away to robbery and something like that Indian Indian you confront somebody who's telling you pay your salary and you better do what they say. And things like that and at officer may lose it on you. So that's why I always say. We consider considerate the people and treat people the way that you want them to treat you and even on a lighter note Just in general too many times I think I think people feel like they can't have a disagreement with somebody and not be violent or angry exchange change just because we disagree on. Something doesn't mean especially when you're talking about people who do deal with co workers of family early members friends because you guys disagree on something doesn't mean that dude don't like one another agree to disagree and move home life right so I guess to wrap up. I guess I would but I want to do under the video on put resources for Suicide Prevention phone numbers that people can reach out and talk to absolutely I will put Some charities is that we deal with directly Along with hours for any crime victim support that people may be interested in getting. Or you don't know of you need it or is there's maybe something you don't know I'll put that information out for people to see as well but really I just wanted to kind of touch on You know to a suicide situation. Not only in a veteran community but also you know in a community as well as something that we don't talk about enough the mental health aspect of PTSD and people dealing with crimes and learning a cope with all situations. We don't talk about that enough either. And I WANNA make data data topic discussion today. Really appreciate that We had opportunity to talk about this because if if we can just change one person's perspective on life live and their necessity to be here. 'cause you made thank you don't may be here or feel like he shouldn't be here and of course there's people that disagree great with you on that but we understand that you can't see that sometime right you can see it and but you can do is just say some to somebody and for the family or friends who have somebody different. Were acting differently. Reach out to won't do those welfare checks. Maybe I'll call the police of the dude welfare check check do it yourself but again not a slight. The police Shoutout to those men and women that do that every day. My hat off to him but can't say enough I mean I'll say it is. It means a lot to people when you check on them and it does you show up in see auty doing so. It doesn't a phone call I. There's a guy I know. He never answers my phone calls. He never answered my techs the one day when I saw him he thanked me for constantly sending messages and checking on. That's awesome so you may not think people care if they're not responding landon. Just keep reaching out. Let them know that you think in a bottom somebody care about him. Somebody loves them. It does mean something right. Don't you think somebody acting funny right really tapie going through some so and sometimes it can be the life of the party. Don't just assume that that person doesn't need a right knee. Someone I wanNA hear doing right. Great Point but I agree we got just a few more seconds here left just in case someone Just tuned in shame on you. But let's go over how you can get in touch with more time before we had the shelter day. Get a you can get in touch with us through any social media at Dina Protection Service You can reaches on our phone number at one eight hundred nine five one four eight six six. That's one eight hundred nine five one for a six six or you can reach us on our website at diener protections protections dot com. All information will be posted under the video So people can see how to get in touch with us or get any resources sources that they may need for mental health or for any good victim advocate support great and half anyone out there to follow on us on any social networks please. He's hit that like button. Hit this button on you to share this information. If it doesn't pertain to you shared I guarantee you somewhere within your followers. They're somebody did I could use does if we can touch one person. This will be a successful podcast today. So that like button and a hit that share but not therefore as friends and family. We really appreciate it right. Thank you thank you.

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ABC News Chief Medical Correspondent Shares Her Story Of 'Life After Suicide'

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

46:44 min | 1 year ago

ABC News Chief Medical Correspondent Shares Her Story Of 'Life After Suicide'

"From NPR and WVU ARE BOSTON. I'm David Folkenflik and this is on point. Today's show me not prove suitable. Oh for all listeners. Death by suicide is increasingly a leading cause of death in the United States. A tough topic and yet we intend this hour to offer valuable insight and resources this and even hope itself to people were hurting badly in February. Twenty Seventeen Jennifer Ashton 's husband of twenty two years took his own life by jumping off the George Washington bridge. They divorced two weeks before shock was followed by unimaginable grief and yet along with her children Ashton has found her way toward experiencing joy in human connection this our on point. ABC News Chief. Medical correspondent Jennifer Ashton on life after suicide. We'll offer a few resources throughout the hour and we'll have more on our website which we welcome the visit on radio dot org if you or someone you know. Maybe considering taking his or her life so please contact in that case that the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at one eight hundred hundred two seven three eight two five five or the crisis text line by texting seven four one seven four one and we welcome you to join us. What questions do you have about processing assist the shock grief and anger after loved one suicide? How have you coped with the tragedy of losing a friend or family member joins anytime on radio DOT ORG or on twitter and facebook ad on point went radio joining me here in Studio City? Dr Jennifer Ashton she is ABC news chief. Medical correspondent also a board certified. Obgyn her new book is called Life after suicide aside finding courage comfort and community after thinkable loss. She also has an eight part series. podcast entitled Life After Suicide Jennifer welcomed on point. Thank you so so much for having me David so you know as tough as this is walk us a little bit through this. What led up? What was your life like up to the point at which your you're you're you're longtime husband ex husband? Rob took his life. Well working backwards from February of twenty seventeen. David I had actually actually done. I was thinking a pretty good job of kind of the optics of perfection and not optics to the external world but optics for myself really. It was a coping mechanism that I had developed after my parents divorced when I was pretty young when I was five years old and I learned after now a lot of therapy that that coping mechanism of Uber achieving thing and setting a bar high for myself and and achieving all of these measures of success in my mind was a way to Keep my father's love. This was all a response to my parents divorce. So that was kind of in my inner psyche And so it's how you you were built exactly the theme in your book. The idea of perfection. I've got this not only do I have this down. I've got it nailed exactly and that's really important in the post suicide Jennifer Ashton. Because as I think we'll talk about and as you see in the book It's it's hard to heal and recover from something that shatters you to your core if you're optics of perfection are still kind of driving that that a train so you know but even the divorce I had said okay. Our marriage ended so to sixty percent of other marriages. I WANNA do divorce better better than anyone has ever done. Divorce and Robin. I were proud of having what we called. An evolved divorce no no screaming no ugliness no you know Viscera Viscera each other and I thought we were in the clear and then eighteen days later he killed himself which which must have been absolutely staggering staggering. He did it in a way. That was also hard for you to avoid and it was something where where you had to think about both what he had done. That is off the bridge which is near your place in New Jersey but also that he did it It it seemed as though in reading your book is though it exemplified. He did it under your is that is that this was playing out. You hadn't perceived that this was likely to happen right even though you're you're not a psychiatrist right you're kind of adjacent to that with people. You deal with symptoms you deal with signs. You didn't detect any of that. No I mean you know in medical school. Whatever your specialty he is? We're all taught the signs of major depression and rob had none of them. Zero not a single one. Even when we were going through couple's therapy before our divorce divorce our therapist asked both of us if we would ever or could imagine ever having suicidal thoughts and we both said emphatically no And Robin I were texting the day before he died. We had seen each other three days before at our daughter's ice hockey game and so not not only did it come out of the blue. But you're right it was It was right in front of us. Literally I was driving having over the George Washington Bridge less than twenty minutes before he jumped off of it And I think that they they are kind of pros and cons to that. Actually I mean it as as in our face as it was the method that he chose there I I think there were also some considerations to us in that in that he would have never chosen away that would have led to me or my children having to find him so you know kind of six to one half dozen to the other. So how did you process you describing book sort of people waves of people. We'll coming over to your house But but how did you actually in your mind in your heart processes i. I couldn't really. I mean I think that you know anyone who's gone through through a sudden trauma like this You know it becomes almost Hollywood like you know the knock on the door. The detectives coming into my apartment hearing hearing those words and then everything kind of going black and and shattering and Collapsing to my knees. I mean many many in many people have gone through. Unfortunately something like that I think I processed it in waves you know and stages initially we I would say for at least two weeks. There was true psychological. Shock which also had physiologic manifestations John's which as a medical doctor I had never experienced and I didn't even really know existed so not being able to sleep more than two hours at a time even with medication. Asian losing nine pounds in less than two weeks Feeling physical pain and looking for bruises. Even though there were none I mean all of those were kind of the first stage and then it kind of went into another stage and another stage and it's still ongoing and you talk about this Dealing with this free yourself dealing with this through therapy dealing with your two children who were I think seventeen eighteen at the time this happened exactly And how hard that was for you trying work with them and same time really processing and not processing this yourself. Yeah I mean I think that any parent but especially especially mothers. There's a maternal instinct that I really do believe is hardwired and kicks in in situations of trauma. I'm a like this where you're only focus is protecting your children and so I had already kind end of collapsed. Psychologically and physically with the realization that I was not able to protect them from pain right because they just lost their father but then Dan my focus. My sole focus became not de compensating in front of them so that they would think now. They've lost both parents and that means physically the as well as psychologically compensating. What do you mean I mean you know physically? I mean that when I realized that I was literally wasting away. I thought it scared me as a as a doctor as a medical doctor. It scared me because I thought way. I am not in control of this. If I become hospitalized hospitalized how much worse is going to be for my children exactly and then emotionally. I thought they can't see their mother hysterically crying when they're going through what they're going through so those two objectives really stayed kind of in front of my mind immediately and still. Do you know it straightened me in reading your book. The degree to which your kids are pillars of strength for you and and we're unbelievably thoughtful about your wellbeing and at same time your desperation to figure out a way to kind of minimize they're having to handle your grief and your and your struggles throughout this. You have as I mentioned earlier. PODCAST also titled Life after suicide in it you. It seems as though you're interviewing a lot of key players in your life Since that time one of them clashed in nineteen now nineteen year old daughter in a conversation. Asian with you for life after suicide podcast Khloe explains how she processes Rub suicide the first place. My mind went was why would he do this to me. It's a choice and I think that a lot of people who go through this experience have that initial thought that this is a choice. This is something that he chose to do do. And it really wasn't until the following day when we the three of us went to sue Where art therapists summering? Where where she started explaining kind of even in the state that we were in that this is not a choice? This is mental illness. There's IT's a very complex issue so you're hearing there from your daughter kind of looking through this as well. There's a special bond right between a lot of fathers. There's a lot of daughters rob sound like He. Although very successful physician himself right surgeon you search here New York that he really took a lot of time. She was going to boarding school down in Central Jersey. He made sure to go down there to your hockey game. Spent time with her There was this thing there that you know you know that you can't replace and that you also know that you can't resolve you know she clearly says it's a very complex issue And as true as is that is I assume. That's desperately unsatisfying right. There's no single thing it was like. Oh my God I found this Fortune Cookie and it tells me everything I need to know right well absolutely lutely David and I think that my children who are incredibly compassionate and sensitive with a very high emotional. IQ before this happened they. I think the biggest reason that they don't have a lot of anger at all towards the world towards me towards their father is because of the fact that they've had professional therapy and be because they understand that it is an illness no different than cancer or heart disease. We're discussing the rising suicide rate. The United States and with the process of living with the grief loss to suicide discussing in sort of we will be discussing Broadway. Were also discussing it in a very human way with Dr after Jennifer Ashton and her own loss. You can join our conversation. How have you been left? And how have you experienced the loss of a loved one who died by suicide suicide. What helped you cope? What set you back? I'm David Folkenflik in this is on point Get Smart Speaker for a gift. Over the holidays well consider consider the gift that keeps on giving right because it can help you keep up with the news just say play. NPR to hear your local NPR station. And all your favorite NPR NPR shows as well this is on point. I'm David Folkenflik. We're discussing a painful but important topic suicide. How the suicide rate is rising in this country? How it affects those who are left behind as well you can join our conversation? What questions do you have about how to detect warning signs and others or yourselves? How much do you sense that society stigma against suicide has abated? Follow us on twitter and find us on facebook at on point. Radio with me is Dr Jennifer Ashton. ABC News Chief Medical Correspondent and a board certified Oh be GYN. Her New Book Life After Suicide Finding Comfort current. Excuse me finding courage comfort and community after unthinkable loss. You can read an excerpt at our website site on radio dot org and also find resources there on our website Should you be concerned about Yourself or loved ones as well I want to take a few calls. People are are are lining up to weigh in on this with their own circumstances. Elaine is calling from Omaha Nebraska. Thanks for calling in for this program. David My story of very similar. My husband went to school psychologist. And I'm a marriage counselor and suddenly in two thousand three. He just announced let me one day that he was walking away from our relationship which is a twenty one year marriage so of course I was devastated and he moved out of our house just before for Christmas and then at the end of the school year he moved to another state and with another woman but only about six weeks after that he called and said he was societal and couldn't live there and wanted to come home so of course I welcome that I never lived in Duluth and but I can tell that he was very Confused and couldn't think his way out of a paper bag so I urged him to go out the very next day as soon as he got back to Omaha to a doctor or to a mental the health center which he did and he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. So that made everything clear and understandable because all this behavior had been so atypical. Atypical of him. He was a very positive outgoing Loving person loved his job with approaching retirement with friends and interests and so Just in like two thousand seven. He announced he lives. Go off his medication. Because he said his new doctor had told him he'd been tapped bipolar disorder. And I begged him not to do that. Because you know we knew the statistics about the high suicide rate among people but he went off anyway and That same year two thousand seven. They were divorced but we remain very good friends and two thousand page He attempted suicide by an monoxide poisoning in in our garage. Which I didn't know about because it didn't work and by the time I got home he had called a friend and gone to the hospital but About about so I went to see him and he said I don't want to live even five minutes more. That's the first thing that he said so I totally understood how disparate he was and how hopeless hopeless she felt and I tried to be a lifeline to him. You know by calling him every day and have ice cream Monday and Within about out two days after that he jumped from a bridge near a home so So the running thing to me is that he and I were both you know psychologists and we have a lot of friends who are therapists and social workers and he was seeing a therapist but he never told me what that was about. `Bout and none of us thinks maybe his therapist. I don't know knew that this was coming. We didn't see signs He didn't have the typical signs of depression. And so I guess my question for anybody who knows out there is how can we be more perceptive with those people who show no obvious signs of depression and you know. Try to get them help before the too late. Thank you for that question. Maybe this would be a good time time to bring in our second guest. We have with us on the line from Austin Texas Dr Charles Never off. He's professor of psychiatry at the University of Texas Board Member of the American Foundation for suicide. Side Prevention Dr Roth thanks for joining us so much. Hi David it's a pleasure. I just want to give Dr Ashton a shout out because what she's doing show show important for people who out there who are suffering in the way she suffered and and worth noting as well Duck Nemov also a board member of the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. What would you say to Elaine? Who called in with story herself? A colleague of yours in a sense a psychiatrist. It sounds like a she and her husband were both. How would you Answer on that. Well I I think Somewhat different from the story that Jennifer described is the caller described described Her husband having been diagnosed with bipolar disorder. which has a very high rate of of suicidality and he had many of the risk factors That we look at which which didn't sound to be the case? What Dr Ashton was speaking of namely he had a psychiatric Satra diagnosis a severe mental illness? He was taking medication. He was a male and men are much more likely to commit suicide than women and and stopping ones. Medication is often a prelude to one of these terrible events Jennifer. What would you say to somebody this call? Who might be thinking about? How does she? You know she's clearly saying I didn't see the signs signs and you talk in your book a little bit about what it is not to see the signs or think that you should have seen the signs right. I think that's you know the analogy that I was thinking of as I was listening to Elaine Tell Her story and I'm so sorry Elaine for your loss. Is that two. Do things number one. That's like asking a medical doctor. You know about someone who's just been diagnosed with terminal cancer you know. How could we have prevented prevented this and sometimes in medicine as much as we know today we still don't know a lot so unfortunately the answer in medicine and science a lot of times is still still? We don't know where we were not sure we can prevent this but my book because I'm not a mental health professional as you've said is it's about the people who are left in the wake of this which when you look at the numbers they are so staggering. It's forty seven thousand deaths by suicide in the country in two two thousand seventeen and it's estimated that for every death by suicide there are one hundred and thirty five people directly affected. Like Elaine. Like me like my children and that translates to over six million people a year and so it's for those people that I wanted to share my story and the stories of other survivors. So that blame and guilt like we heard from the caller don't create a secondary tragedy in the wake of something. That's already already tragic. David go ahead. Dr Number Jennifer's point about the magnitude of this epidemic. We we know are in here a lot. What about the opiate epidemic? We Now know that twenty to twenty five thousand of those deaths are also suicides. So if you add those twenty twenty five thousand to the nearly fifty thousand suicides. We're going to have this year We're talking about seventy five thousand jobs. And if you think about about this there's so many more suicides homicides the it's just a staggering number Charles. I wanted to ask you about that because In sort of looking through some literature in this I wasn't sure whether it was fair to call this a crisis or an epidemic a couple of statistics we pulled from the seat. The Centers for Disease Control role among others said late numbers showed a suicide is the tenth leading cause of death in the US for all ages about one hundred twenty. Three Americans die by suicide every day. It takes the lives of roughly forty five thousand Americans every year. The rate has gone up. I looked from two thousand one in two thousand fifteen had gone up. I think about thirty percent if you take the population in aggregate obviously there's some breakdowns ages. Certain kinds of demographics. We can talk about that later her. But you use the word epidemic. Why did you select that characterization? Charles well I think You know by and large the numbers are staggering. The demographics have changed during the years that you described so in two thousand The vast majority suicides were elderly. Men seventy years of age and older. That's completely changed in twenty seventeen. There was a dramatic increase. He's in the fifteen thirty four age group making its second of The second leading cause of death in that age group in the United Adage States and more remarkably the twenty four to sixty four year old age group. It's the fourth leading cause of death. In fact of the top ten causes the deaths in the United States suicide the only one that increasing all the others heart disease cancer stroke diabetes or decreasing. So that's Turner pedantic and also the context of that medically is even more staggering. which is that if you add the OPIOID deaths that Dr Number Office just talking about even even if you don't by the way fifty to seventy thousand deaths by suicide is more people than die of Breast S. cancer and more people that died of AIDS at the peak of the HIV AIDS epidemic at the peak? So I mean you know Jennifer the other thing. I'd mention that no one ever talks about is they're five hundred thousand suicide attempts to get to the emergency room every year in the United Adage States and at the medicine basically making sure that those don't become a different kind of statistic exactly I WANNA take a caller to more now arenas calling from Richmond Virginia Irene. Thank you for calling in. Hi there thank you so much for taking my call I just wanted to say how much I appreciate. This conversation surrounding suicide suicide I think the more that we can talk about it especially Your medical freezing and framing. You know putting attention to the fact that we don't blame someone for you know being diagnosed with cancer and yet with someone with mental illness. Sometimes there's a lot of a question of blaming I could really relate to your daughter's comment about you know feeling it. I like. It was a choice that someone has made. My father committed suicide when I was twelve years old and he was. I think six forty one at the time this was in two thousand and He had been diagnosed bipolar He had been on and off of medication in in and out of Counseling and treatment and as an added Situation that he was kind of dealing with he was secretly gay gay and so he and my mother were living in this situation. I think he felt like he was going to lose. You know everything that that he had. His friends has status. You know he had come from from a community where that was not accepted and two thousand and wasn't that long ago but it was just long enough ago. That even at that time felt like he wasn't able to come out and and fully be himself at that time I think there was still a lot of For him personally. Shame surrounding the idea of being open about mental illness. And I think the idea about being open about LGBT to So I guess I just was calling in to see thank you so much for the conversation and And Yeah and I guess my thought it was about the shame surrounding mental illness. And how can we open up that conversation And I and people who are suffering from you know different communities whether it be Someone who's diagnosed with you know chronic depression or bipolar disorder Someone who's suffering from traumatic experience Living through trauma Oh you know someone coming from. Lgbtq community the fact that this covers lots of different people from lots of different communities. Thank you for that Irene. I appreciate it. Jim Fresh you wrote in your book. Look about Not necessarily even understanding that you needed this but about what became a reliance in need for support systems. That emerged for you. You people showed up. Some people didn't show up right. What what worked for you? What ultimately helped sustain you when you were in a situation? Not the same as Irene's ends but experiencing staggering loss like this. Well I think for for me and and also for my children you know this tragedy. Pretty really shows you who your true friends are. It shows you the best of people and the worst of people uh-huh what worked for us really was pretty simple. You know it was people just being there whether it was directly next to us or you're sending texts without expecting a response back What worked is the understanding That people we'll have that. This was a major trauma that we all went through and that like any trauma it can have ripple effects that pop up unexpectedly. You know even in the most unexpected times and situations what doesn't work is People thinking that just because we've passed the one year mark where quote unquote fine. What doesn't work is people expressing their anger towards rob which we have consciously and subconsciously made a commitment to not Play because it's not productive and again again we didn't want to make it into a secondary tragedy In even though anger is a very common and natural response to this We all. Oh feel and believe that it. It's so destructive to us and that and ultimately disrespectful to rob's memory but it would seem to be also so is that there'd be a moment or a way in which even if people were processing their own anger friends or relatives or whomever. You're like I got a lot of my plate now. I can't privilege your feelings about about this mine. Even as I recognize you may legitimately have feelings about exactly and I think that what we learned. from therapy and I and I put a lot of this. All of it in the book is that The grief and the trauma that comes after losing a loved one to suicide is different than grief from any other kind of death and that needs to be taken into account by the people in our inner circle and so the people who've been helpful to us have taken taken that into account. I want to let you do a reading from your book. The first reading I pulled out for you Speaking plates You've talked about after the death. Move your ex husband. Rob a course of healing introspection and you feel like it sounded like you were trying to get at the full range of emotions you're experiencing go. Go ahead Jennifer This was a a major kind of piffle for me. Let's say you break plate. Not that I've ever done such a thing but I have heard that it has been known to happen. You you need that plate and you have no choice but to glue back together. But there's a part of the pattern that you've never really liked so you decide. Maybe this is a great time to just get rid of that part. Will you can try. Obviously though if you leave out that part you don't like you're never going to end up with a whole plate and anything less than a whole played played is really as useless as no played at all. I can easily picture that and it makes sense to me. I've still definitely got work to do on my personal all version of reconstructing myself. But I'm getting there flaws and all and I'm very very aware that I'm not who I used to be so I kind of described this plate. Analogy as plate is now glued together. Not so pretty and perfect looking but it's intact so we're going to take some calls when we come back from this break very very briefly in the time we have left in this segment. What would you say to others who are trying to put put lives back together in that way that you have to embrace all the imperfections the flaws and in doing so? It doesn't make you weak and actually can make you stronger. Were discussing the increasing rate of suicide. The United States the care available to family and friends of those who taken their own lives. You can join the conversation. What questions do you have for my guests? How have you been able to comfort or aid? Someone who has lost someone else to suicide and and we'll talk a little bit about Popular Culture Netflix as popular show thirteen reasons why plotline about teenage suicide connects debating its ultimate effect on teenagers and suicide at risk. I'm David Folkenflik in this is on point in. This is on point I'm NPR. Media correspondent. Respondent David Folkenflik. We're discussing unsettling rise in suicides. The United States what is being done to address it and how it affects people in their own lives. You can join the conversation. What questions do do you have about suicide? We can talk about how to detect concerns or signs of them of it in yourself and others what to do about it. Follow us on twitter. Find US on facebook at on point point radio DOT ORG and I want a point out that not only do we have an excerpt of the book of Dr Jennifer Ashton which is called life after suicide finding courage comfort and community after after unthinkable loss. But we also have resources there from people who Who have for people have such concerns with me as I mentioned in studio is Dr Jennifer Ashton author of that book also with me on on the line from Austin Texas? It's Dr Charles Number off a psychiatrist and professor at the University of Texas del Medical School and a board member of the American Foundation for suicide prevention attention. I WanNa take some of your calls to kick off this segment however WanNa take call. I from Sarasota Florida. Megan go ahead. Hi I'm so glad that I'm able to listen to this program. believe it or not Thanks to my mother who gave me a call from her car. And said I should be should be listening and One of the things that I saw my fiance committed or I should say we started saying it was taken with. Suicide died in October And I was here and one of the things that we have here is is called survivors of suicide. It's a group that meets twice every month and is extremely helpful because one thing that that we're all dealing with that perhaps you'll have spoken about. This is that it's not a traditional death and I know that you just said that But it it is a traumatic death in other words many of us either found the body were there and so we're not just dealing with the loss but we're dealing with the trauma and trying to speak with anyone who has not not experience anything like that. It is just so different that we don't know quite how to how to talk with anyone so meeting with others who have gone and through that same trauma And just trying to process has been extremely helpful at least for me because it really was. It was like a bomb went off in my life. There's just frag ugh everywhere and I and and just trying in this. This was six. This sounds like it was incredibly constructive for you. Megan and very constructive for me because I have been able to process out loud with some others who've gone through the same thing and going through the same emotion so You know I I I would encourage anyone else in any other city that they've gone through something like this to try to find you know because it's not just wives is the husband's in grief. 'cause they're all those types of groups with hostage Cetera but an actual survivor the suicide Type of group is really helpful. The thank you Megan for your insight for sharing for experience. We of course so sorry to hear of what what happened. We've also got a call from Portland. Maine Steve's calling. Go ahead Steve yes I nine and thanks for taking the call and Appreciate this conversation which is really important. I just wanted to share some of what helped me survive And that was advice from a counselor Some people probably like me grow up in a religious tradition. You know where it's considered a mortal sin if somebody takes their life and and also Is Seen as a choice and I talked to very wise counselor. Who Am Eddie clear to me? That God was really grieving and Yeah from that perspective. It's very helpful. Thank thank you for sharing that And for sharing that sense of community with others and one call it well from what Kota South Dakota Sarah go ahead A show so your question for our guest a hi. Thanks for taking my call. June twenty-seventh of twenty seventeen. My daughter committed suicide And it's still hard for me to wrap my head around that it's coming into two years I live very rurally in rural South Dakota I was here and she lives living in Florida She's twenty nine And I still. I don't have a support system here. I don't. I don't know how to heal myself because I don't i. Just don't there's nothing here for me. my husband and I obviously are devastated and he's not a very good communicator. Sometimes time so I cry a lot. I walk with my dogs and I talked to her and I just cry all the time and it's almost two years. I don't I don't know if I'm doing something wrong. I'm not angry with her. I understand and I should've seen I should should've seen the writing on the wall. I should have been more on. Sarah Sarah want you stay on the line for a moment and let's turn a Charles never off. Who is a psychiatrist to talks about these things? You know. I think is mentioned in Jennifer's book Dr Jennifer Ashton Book about her own experience that you know people think well you get through the year think even just mentioned a moment ago Jennifer that you know that that you're fine and actually there's this realization that it's not find Charles numberof. What kinds of advice would you offer somewhat like Sarah? WHO's gone through? I guess almost two years now and WHO's trying to figure out how to move forward and who's still in a sense of shock so Sarah I my heart goes out to you Taking care of many patients and have lost him to suicide and have counseled many many individuals who have gone through this loss. I I would recommend that you get in touch get online look at the American Foundation for suicide prevention adventure. AFSPC DOT ORG or the anxiety and Depression Association of America. They can put you in touch with resources. Yes even in South Dakota and we have chapters there where you could Deal with the issue. A little better by being embraced by survivors a bit like the previous caller talked about. But there is help for you. I also wanted to make a point That Jennifer made and I want to highlight it and that is people people commit. Suicide are in so much psychic pain that they're hurting so badly that life becomes agony and and they're both helpless and hopeless. Many could be helped if they receive treatment. And there's a lot of obstacle as you all know in their stigma there's difficulty with third party payers etcetera but I always tell the medical students you know no one Growing up volunteers ears to be somebody that in the end is going to commit suicide. This is terrible A hand to be dealt as diabetes beauties or t as Jennifer Metro earlier terminal cancer and Jennifer Yeah I also you know in listening to Sarah Anne and the fact that she cries is every day and it's coming up on two years I learned from therapy. That grief is love so when you lose someone you love love. It is not only normal but healthy to grieve that loss but that there is this phenomenon called complicated grief which is if you don't get some professional therapy or support that can persist and can interfere. You know in in your recovery Rian your healing and and I also learned and my children learned with therapy. And it's in the book with another survivor story. A concept or a theory theory that was developed in the nineteen nineties by two psychologists called post traumatic growth and that it's inconceivable when you're in as much pain as the last caller was in to imagine a situation where your life is actually in many ways better but in dealing with trauma it is it can be an opportunity opportunity for a deeper appreciation of life enrich relationships with other people. Sometimes that involves spiritual change but That is possible the ball and and I hope that our last caller gets to that point and sir. I think he's still on the line. Does does what Charles or Jennifer offer you Any any leads any guides of things that you can do that feel constructive in this moment. Well it does. It's it's I looked online and I've tried to get into these You know groups of people talking about their grief online and I don't know if it's something. That's that's GonNa be Cathartic for me in any way I just feel worse. I don't know how to explain it. I just I'm very spiritual person and I okay. I appreciate it full things and the countryside and I just miss my daughter so terribly and I I know Oh that she was hurting. She suffered from anxiety and depression and but she had so much to live for. She was so beautiful and bright and smart mark. And when. I can't spell something. I have no one to call anymore. You know like I just I just I'll do what I can't I just I may I. I'm going to have to go and buy the doctors book. It sounds like some of the resources that offered you in this conversation would be. I hope of some help. Thank you thank you so much for sharing your Your experiences in your grief. Of course you miss her doctor number off. What what you you say to offer Those people who say I didn't see the signs You know I think In speaking to my colleagues before the show that you'd said look their patients of yours were we're we're one or two of them have taken their own lives and you had not registered that that was likely consequence no they they weren't even on my worry list. You know all psychiatrists have patients on their worry less than and three patients that I've lost in the last two years Completely blindsided me and I think that there there are fundamentally two different kinds of suicides. One is the kind of person who suffered for a long time with with the known psychiatric illness by police disorder depression for example And they just don't get better for whatever reason they don't get the right treatment it meant. They haven't been availed themselves of any treatment and they finally sort of Decide that they've had enough. The other kind is just the impulsive suicide. These are often occurs in adolescence And as you know. Adolescence is a time of very deep feelings and great hurts and our society with all his social media is sort of set up for this cyber bullying it Cetera and many times young people will Have a a terrible hurt. Be Ostracized from Social Group. The embarrassed embarrassed and school. The million not having a date at the prom and they will impulsively decide to take their life. So it's extremely difficult. Got To pick up on the warning signs there. There is the sort of classic notion of somebody calls you and says I'm going to give away all of my belongings And I WANNA make a donation to the charity of your choice And I just wanted to tell you what a great friend you've been. Well that's a warning sign but it rarely happens. That way chosen are off. You talked a little bit about impulsive decisions. Let's talk a little bit about popular culture and I think the best way to do. It might be through talking about the Netflix Netflix. Show thirteen reasons why the show is built around the mystery of the suicide of its main character named Hannah in this extra segment The series creator. Brian Yorkey Rickie talked about the show's depiction of Hannah suicide. We had a number of people. Ask US along the way. Why are we had him killed herself in the way we did and why we showed would it? We worked very hard not to be curious but we did want it to be painful to watch because we wanted it to be very clear that there is nothing nothing in any way worthwhile about suicide chose number off your active active on the board at the American Foundation for Suicide Prevention There's a study out that said From the National Institute of Mental Health. Federal You Know Research Agency with finding saying that That they thought that it could likely influence teenagers to take their lives And yet there's another study out from the University of Pennsylvania that showed that suicide risk decreased for students who watched thirteen reasons. Why all the way through to the end of season two But that's students who stopped in the middle. There seemed to be strong suggestion. We're at a higher risk of suicide. What degree of influence do you ascribe to popular culture Episodes like this will. I think it has a tremendous impact. And and I have to tell you that in our run Observations the one. I was at the University of Miami. When when the show first aired we showed a large increase in the number of adolescent patients who are coming in With either attempted suicide or plans to commit suicide. So I think the and I M H study was very well done and we know that there is a phenomenon of suicide contagion among adolescents that there are clusters clusters of suicides that occur at particular high schools after this one. There's another this has also been documented and veterans who serve in the same unit overseas There is clustering of suicides and I think the way I look at it is that there are a multitude of factors that that that either razor lower wants threshold for suicide and and They conspire to either bring one to threshold or not. And that has to do with social support systems using drugs or alcohol cyber bullying bullying it Chateauroux and I think this is just one additional factor that that is a main contributor particularly in young people one of the things I was struck Jennifer Ashton as we wrap up this hour with some advice. You got from Dr Seuss simmering both reflected in your book and your podcast. She says the people ask themselves. How can I be strong weak? How can I be happy and sad? People make the mistake of thinking. It's either or that either strong or weak. I'm really in shock. I'm having a good time once you embrace multiple truths you gotta recognize. It's and and and yeah the concept of multiple truths which I talk about in the book and something else I learned from therapy is if you WANNA. He'll you have to feel and that has been really hard but also really freeing And and really helpful for me and my children You know once you can admit these things to yourself you have Mitt them to other people. That's Dr Jennifer Ashton Ashton. ABC News Chief Medical correspondent author of life after suicide. Thank you for sharing your experiences for this moving our today. Thank you and also we'd like to thank Dr Charles Nemov Professor. Psychiatry treat the University of Texas del Medical School. Thanks for joining us. Thank you again if you have concerns that you or someone you may know. Maybe considering taking his or her life please contact the national suicide. Aside Prevention Hot Lifeline at one eight hundred two seven three eight two five or the crisis text line by texting seven four one seven four one. You could continue the conversation conversation. Get the point podcast or website on point radio DOT ORG are executive producers Karen Shipman. I'm David Folkenflik in this is on point.

Dr Jennifer Ashton Ashton Dr Number Jennifer David Folkenflik United States David American Foundation for Suicid National Suicide Prevention Li twitter Rob facebook Charles numberof Dr Jennifer Ashton depression Elaine George Washington bridge American Foundation NPR Netflix ABC News South Dakota
Ep. 8: Test Subjects (Mara Mills)

Phantom Power: Sounds about Sound

37:18 min | 2 years ago

Ep. 8: Test Subjects (Mara Mills)

"This. Is. Phantom power. Episode eight test subject. This is the first sound. Walk together. Making his sound. All the noise all. When will it stop? And you can't get. You can't ever forget fly. You can't. Have you? What happened? Sylla's if I'm being thrown into space or place that I am experiencing as anxiety that sense of the alarms the hurrying footsteps, the dramatic voice and the time passing, it's just a kind of its terra. It's, it's, it's Jonathan craze, twenty four seven made manifest in my in my is. Yeah. These are sounds. I've been playing around with our guest for today's episode shared this archive of amazing sounds with me. And so, I was just sort of, you know, playing with them putting them into a collage. But a lot of them do seem to induce a bit of a feeling of dread. No, I like I like to it was foot of potent. I was wondering it was almost as if I was in a radio play where most of the dialogue had been removed. And I just had the sound effects left. Yeah. And as we'll learn, you know, these sounds are sort of a relative of radio drama, and believe it or not, they're intended to be healing. Sounds chris. Now. I mean, the idea that the flow was kind of come in full woods, and going backwards into the distance this, this stuff is spirit. Tara did mess around with the sounds a little bit. But, but yeah, these are sounds that are supposed to help you become the best person that you can possibly be welcome back to another episode of phantom power, where we explore the world of sound in the arts and humanities. I mckay. Good. And I'm Chris cheek. Chris is a poet and performance artist. I'm a scholar of media and communication welcome to season. Two today, we examine the strange and obscure history of sound being used as a diagnostic tool for the betterment of human beings. I how could anyone think that the chilling film lar- sounds we just heard could possibly be good for you. Well, maybe, maybe I should just let our guests explain it. Exactly, what's introduce her? My name's Mara mills. I'm an associate professor of media culture and communication at New York University, where I also co direct the center for disability. Studies Mara is scholar both media studies and a scholar of disability studies. Right. But the reason she's on our show is that she combines these two seemingly different fields by working in sound. But the mysterious recordings that we were just listening to have to do with research that Mara was doing on books for the blind. Well in twenty fifteen I was collaborating with Helen Selsdon, who's the archivist at the American Foundation for the blind to digitize their talking book collections. So we took the entire collection because they were fairly fragile to like high end digitisation company in New York. I had a grant from the National Science Foundation to pay for the digitisation. We toted in the trunk of my car, tons, and tons of these records to this company and had them digitize them for us. They gave us back. An external hard drive with completely unlabeled wave files, which meant that I had to go through and listen to each one of the files to figure out what it was and to correlate it to whatever the title was on the finding aid. If there, even was one it was extremely time consuming all of these digitized unbelievable files. And then meanwhile she gets this really great invitation to be visiting scholar at the max plank institute for the history of science in Berlin. So by day, she's doing all of this stuff there at the institute and by night. She sitting in her. Lynn apartment, just listening to these strange files, many of which in fact are pretty remote from what one would think of as a book. So listening to these files, many of them were in fact, talking books, which were novels narrated by famous Broadway stars in New York in the nineteen thirties, and nineteen forties for blind readers made in the AFC studios. I expected that the Hefferin Oscar Wilde recorded so liberal use of the blind talking books -tudios of American Foundation for the blind and poke rooted read by even again. High above the city on toll column to the statue of the happy, he was gilded all over within some of them were very unusual. It would be sort of sixty minutes of electronic beeping, which turned out to be the output of reading machines, scanner based electron ick. Reading machines that were text to tone, things like the visit tuner or the stereotype. Visit tony. Well, the visit toner is like a brand of something called an op phone. Okay. And the and the visit toner was actually made really nearby to us in Dayton, Ohio, nice under a contract from the United States Veterans Administration. Right. But basically, it's this little machine that you would pass over a line of printed, text, and it would turn the letters into these sort of musical tones that blind people were able to interpret as letters. That is super interesting so they have to learn the alphabetic tunnel correlation. Yeah. And they can listen to their utility bills. I mean it was used for these very sort of perfunctory, things just like the mail came in. I, I gotta see what my bills are, and they could listen to like that. I love that. You're hearing capital be now. Here's capital C, and then I came across this album. It seemed to me to be a series of nonsense words and completely ambiguous, nonsensical disconnected sentences. So narrator with a ambiguously gendered voice. Sounding like a speaker from mid century radio reading out sentences like you touch, and a little comes off in your fingers touch comes off. Fryers and you have to dust off. And then moving onto another sentence. Totally disconnected from that one long. Shiver. Get past steps coming slowly in my mind was racing to understand what those sentences could mean with this about sugar doughnut. Was it about vices Greece? What could possibly be about right? Right. Freight. The chair was hard. But you knew she didn't care. And he sat very straight. And around her there was silence. Picked up the little thing in during fingers. And it seemed might never stopped turning and feeling they walked together slowly. They're making a sound together. I decided I had to new more about what this was who made this. What was it meant to do? All the turmoil. When will it stop? Quiet. So it turned out that the American Foundation for the blind. The af be had actually commissioned, this record in nineteen fifty two, and they commissioned, it to be an auditory version of the semantic, apper, -ception test or tat, which by then was a fairly well known means of psychological testing for sighted, people, it was a series of still images sketches really black and white sketches, designed in the nineteen thirties, by psychologist, Henry Murray, who worked at Harvard and artists Christiana Morgan. The images that Morgan drew were meant to be extremely ambiguous. They were meant to be generalized. They were meant to be interpreted Bill in many, many different ways by a wide range, almost a universal range of people and the viewer in this case of the visual TAT's was usually asked in a psychological office to look at one of the particular images. And then to write a story about it. After that story was written about the image, the difficulties arose, the psychologist then had to figure out themselves how to interpret that story what it meant what it meant about that person. What it meant about their latent personality traits or about their feelings. Young. The phonetic perception test is just the story of it is really fascinating and Morgan Murray were really interesting people, you know, Morgan was this artist and writer, and she was an amateur psychoanalyst, who collaborated with, you know, the famed psychoanalyst Carl Jung and Murray was this Harvard psychologist, and the two of them became lovers, which was actually something that young had recommended so that they could release their creative energies. I say nothing the nineteen thirties. It was all going off. Yeah. Yeah, it really was. And that's what happens with prohibition. I mean, I guess it worked because they created the, the Matica perception test after that. And the tat became one of the most widely used protective tests in the world. The auditory version of the projected test. The one commissioned by the FBI was produced by a psychologist in Hartford named Sidell Braverman, and also of fairly well known blind memoir, ist and radio script writer who lived in New York named Hector Shelvin, ni Chevy had written, a memoir called my eyes, have a cold knows that was a reference to his service dog his eyes so Chevy, having experienced in radio as a scriptwriter, but also as a producer had lots of contacts in New York from whom he could acquire sound effects voice actors and he helped Sidell produce this oral analog to the visual tat, so the auditory projected test had several sections. And I had to listen to the whole thing to figure out what those sections were. So, I have now administered about forty Dettori protective test to myself. It was their strong and smiling and Saint destined never to come down in than stopping. And then moving again. Soft Mary sobbed. The opening section contained these ambiguous descriptions of objects or scenes, and at the beginning of this section listeners are instructed to tell what happened what led up to it, and what the outcome will be, and that's followed by these various in Vegas descriptions of scenes or objects and with har- high and loud, and it kept on and on, and you couldn't stop it. Stop it at all. So the second section of the auditory protective test is a series of dialogues in an invented language completely nonsense language, but spoken in very highly charged or affective intonation to my mind to my interpretation. These dialogues sounded either extremely angry and heated or extremely sad. Of course, the whole point of it is, is to figure out what the listeners interpretation of the dialogues are. But there is no way to know what the language was because they were completely invented words. Well them I drive the divo- you. Are you me to wrote it? You maneuver, you'll roll down. Have you Zanu serve me? I have to drive you name. A you with down moods drill down. What should be our do almost on the trips do not? But I'm I drew it won't with the chest, as your D drew. Then, then let me vile how you netted listener was asked to tell a story about what the dialogue was about to put words in the actor's mouths. It turns out that these voice actors were from New York, they knew Hector Chevy. They were trained in double talk, a strategy used by actors or radio people on stage in, in radio to use invented words, usually just wanted a time, sprinkled into a speech like for humorous effect. Ten. Sunday to, to live. I said earlier that this recording or these recordings were a relative of radio drama. Right. Right. Because this blind script writer Shelvin, Ye had access to all of these great voice actors to create these tests. So I'm thinking about traditions of nonsense poetry, I'm thinking about Russian futurist trends, rational Zam, the idea of an invented language that across national boundaries. I'm thinking about Esperanto. I'm thinking about other traditions of nonsense poetry, like Lewis Carroll's, the Jabba walkie. I'm thinking about Hugo bowl with his dad is poems. I'm thinking about coach phys. It's not there's a whole world here of composing, an invented languages. I'm thinking about the peas and carrots peas and carrots that they used to teach us as actors if you were supposed to be whispering in the back. Background right on kind of. Hey, gladden, where into a territory of passively and transparency in relation to wall was signify while they bring not just kind of set of little literal translations, literal, interpretations? But the analogs the metaphors. Yeah, the duddy stuff the ways that, that sounds and words conjure things within us, right? Grow. I plead, the glitch in Bree Nordhoff, fellow now I'm Laudi. I plead. As Ella Chaffee. Well, it's make. Threat. Then there's a final section of the record with several tests, which just have nonverbal sounds, and these sounds were from the ABC, sound effects department each test would have ten or so. Sounds played in a row a gun shot, the dog barking. Glue. And the listener was instructed to aggregate, these sounds into, if not a story into some sort of cohesive, anecdotes, to explain what these sounds are doing. Assemble together. And the listener would either verbally in each of these cases, say out there explaination to a psychologist or right down a story repair, graph about them. And then then submitted to that. So hi. How wide spread was this kind of what with auditory perception on the the tests? So I think that this test itself wasn't like really used that much with blind people. Okay. It was a little bit. But as Mara did more research she came to realize that the use of sound for this kind of protective testing was pretty widespread. In fact, the history of psychological project of testing is at least as much sonic as it is visual. After listening to the auditory protective test. I wanted to know if this was one of a kind, or if it was part of a bigger genre. And I immediately discovered that, of course, the entire field of protective testing probably starts with auditory protective testing. Even if it wasn't called that immediately and dates to word association tests produced at the beginning of the twentieth century by people like Karl Yune, most famously by Carl young, but there were precursors to him in word association test to him. He published, I think his first article on it in nineteen ten he wrote a list of test words green water Inc, which he would then read in the clinical setting to a patient and ask the patient to respond to him with the very first word that came to their mind, creating sort of couplet of terms between the tester testy. The therapist and the patient, and he then would try to interpret what that meant either with the patient or on his own. Chris, let's do this green grass water. Say ball on the radio. Voter was sure it was banned. Yeah. Great band. Yeah. Okay. Pollution window. Vibrancy friendly tea cold. Matt village idiot. Oh, I really liked to that. You call that you came up with poison after Inc. Never give never give a poet. A word association testing. Right. Well, I think of riding as pollution. After looking into you. I decided I wanted to follow up more specifically on other recorded auditory protective tests. And in fact, there were a ton of protective tests recorded on phonograph records starting in the nineteen thirties with the advent of electrical recording one of the earliest that I came across shockingly was made by BF Skinner. He was a guy who really didn't care about interior already very much. Right. He liked to call the brain of a black box, just had inputs outputs. He was a post doc at the time at Harvard, and he created something that he called the verbal some ater. Are. Yeah. Basically, he had been working late nights in the lab is a post doc and hearing all sorts of weird machine. Sounds and those machine sounds he was fantasizing hallucinating were speech things. The machines were telling him go outside go outside because he was exhausted. And didn't wanna work in the lab, and he thought to himself, oh, what would it be like to make a record with speech as if it was heard behind a wall or heard in another room muffled speech? And I could play this record then for people, and it would events what he called verbal behavior from them because he was already getting interested in behaviorisms. But this for Skinner was still quite close to something even Freudian. In fact, he even says in his report about it, that it might be useful for some sort of analysis, that you would get to know something about someone's personality, but he quickly moved way farther, into his behavior. Studies. Which were all about this, seemingly endless potential to train animals and humans to do totally new things. The human is a blank slate. After encountering the Skinner test, I learned that there was another entire sub field of auditory protective tests, based on music, a number of psychologists. Summit, Harvard, some colleagues of Skinner's, Karl coons, either created new recordings or used existing recordings of music, so Karl Kuhn musical reverie test as he called it used pieces by for instance, Debussy and would ask listener to sit in a very comfortable armchair. Listen to this piece of music, and then tell a story about it, which they then would use to diagnose them with personality, propensities or disorders. So Chris so far. We've heard how and why you professor more mills has assembled this curious history of auditory protective tests, all of which proposed to mind, some kind of essence from the individual by having them. Listen to sound and then respond to what they'd heard, which is cool. But what I love about Mars work, and what really inspires me about it is that she uses history such as these to ask really big questions questions like when we test, someone what are we really testing where derived notions of normalcy come from, and who, or what do these ideas of normal really support? Morgan Murray described their own process as analysts of these tests as a process of double hearing, and it's interesting that they use the word hearing, because they were again, working with visual protective tests, not the auditory ones, but if the testy is supposed to look at test, and give an interpretation of it the analyst is giving an interpretation of interpretation. They're supposed to have double hearing. There's supposed to themselves. Think about what their interpretation of the test would be with the average normal repetition of the test would be. And then think about how the interpretation of testy works, so, yeah, another problem that arose for me is that as a historian, I'm supposed to have triple hearing or actually, I wanted myself to have triple hearing. I wanted to will myself into triple hearing. I wanted to let myself take the tat naively experience it, what did I think of this, and I also had to hear like this. Psychologist I had done stand what the psychologist doing. And then I also have to here in this very broad socio historical contextual frame, like historian. I come to this project as a disability historian and I came to this project as someone interested in access technologies for blind people. So the idea that blind people were also going to be subjected to the medic perception tests, just made me question access to what, of course, it, there's not just access to, like, nice novels and other. At end sort of things that people choose, but there's access to, like, disciplining and diagnosing technologies that were happening at the same moment. The French historian of ideas and philosopher, Michelle Fuko was asking some similar questions as he looked at historical practices, such as diary keeping in letter writing and confession in the Catholic church. These are all activities where we think we're bearing our sole. Right. Right. We're revealing our innermost depths, but Fu-cho said, no, no, no. These are the activities, the techniques, these are the technologies by which we really invent the sole right in those moments. That's where we construct a self. The self is an already. They're inside of us as this kind of unchanging essence. Right. We invented through these cultural activities the ancient stoic in their journaling. We're trying to achieve self mastery, the Catholics confession was used a craft a soul, that was purged of sin, and in the modern era psychology in its tests, and therapies these are designed to make us well. Hole in right? And in fact, I suppose. We are increasingly being conditioned by these technologies. So one last thing there's this historian of science at Harvard, Peter Gallison. And he wrote this great piece about the roar shock ink blot test, where he says, I in order to even create attests like that you have to have some sort of a priori idea of what the self is that you're testing for right? And so there was this idea that there's a deep on conscious Freudian self that could be evoked or brought out by the ink, blot and back when the first project of tests were invented only a few bearded Psychoanalyst's shared this new kind of modern notion of the self. But what happens they begin administering the test. And then, by the very act of testing this new notion of the self begins to spread throughout the culture. Oh, yeah. The whole the you know, I mean we see all we hear. For it, and we see all around us right now in terms of occupants about identity. I'll about behavior. And this is the kind of cultural history that mar mills is exploring through these auditory protective tests Humanika perception tests, the visual on's were not meant to ever circulate widely because it would bias the test results. If someone had seen the image before, of course today in the digital moment, the all of the cards, all of the images can be seen easily online. And if you want to look at them, the first problem that immediately one can see that they are not as generalized, nor as ambiguous nor as neutral as they were supposed to be. They're supposed to be like, ink, blots, extremely ambiguous scenes that anyone can relate to and that will plump something about that person. But of course, they're all scenes of, of white people from the middle of early to mid twentieth. Century, many of them are middle-class scenes, if they're not middle-class scenes than they are scenes, which to the modernized, the present day, I represent middle-class fears about urban degeneracy. So these are clearly not neutral testing instruments in the first place for Morgan Murray. Who did not create a coatings game. They eventually settled on this idea that the correct answer was the average answer reality is what most people perceive if most people believe that an image of two people embracing is an image of a heterosexual married couple, then that's the correct response. And anyone who interprets that image as a homosexual image as an image of an affair as a pedophile ick image, whatever that then is revealing something pathological about themselves. I mean it's terrifying to think that truth is statistically, typical there were more complex coding schemes than that. But that is to me, quite terrifying, way to, to interpret those images and many of the disorders. They were supposed to diagnose. It was often things like sexual disorders. It was often things like homosexuality, which after nineteen Seventy-three is no longer. Considered to be a disability. So the suite of things called disabilities at that time, which psychologists were looking for many of them aren't even considered to be disciplined today. So if you're looking for homosexuality. Yeah, you can find it if they're looking for other affective disorders they might be able to find it. But it's these are things that we wouldn't even aren't considered to be fixed traits today and aren't considered to be disciplined today. And certainly the way people use TAT's has shifted as the way we think about sexuality has shifted from something, that's fixed from something that's innate to something that's much more fluid or the way we think about gender has shifted or what counts as a disability shifted. I think what all of this shows us is that normal has a history. Yes. Disability has a history. I think what was also interesting about the auditory protective test for blind people. It could be used to help blind, people understand their interests. And then think about what kind of education, they wanted to get what kind of jobs, they would want to go into, but it could also be used to diagnose additional disabilities in a in a universe of proliferating disability, which is what the twentieth century was as many infectious diseases and disabilities from prior times began to vanish because of new healthcare, interventions from Farmaceutica interventions a whole host of other disabilities began to be invented, especially in the case of the DSM psychological disabilities. The proliferation in that realm of disability. It's interesting to think of blind, people then being diagnosed. This whole range of other disabilities, perhaps through the auditory protective test all of the impairments that, that all of us can be tested for in this particular moment, where disability and impairment are presumed to be lurking everywhere and presumed to be a sort of baseline. Back when we were an agrarian nation. There was no such thing is ADHD, right? Right. Because like it didn't exist as a disability because it didn't have a reason to. When you were using the plow or what have you it didn't require that much trained attention? Right. And also, there weren't that many things around to distract you either. That's right. Well. Some birds or I don't know. Yeah. Flies. Dust on you. And that's it for this episode of phantom, power. Thanks tomorrow. Meals for coming on the show into Helen Selsdon the American Foundation for the blind for the use of the auditory protective tests. You can learn more about phantom power, and find transcripts links to the things we talked about and find previous episodes of the show at phantom. Pot dot all you could also subscribe to oh, there or wherever you get your podcasts would love it. If you'd rate review as in apple podcasts, and you can also find us on Facebook and Twitter. A music was by Matt. Hey, good Graham Gibson and blew out sessions as well as Duke Ellington clothed debut. See the show was at its by Craig alien McKay. Good. We bid a phone farewell and happy graduation to our intern at a Whitmer, and we welcome out new into Gina more of it phantom. Power is produced with support from the robot h in Nancy j lenient dome, and the Miami university humanity center and the National Endowment. For the humanities.

Chris cheek Harvard Morgan Murray New York American Foundation Mara mills TAT BF Skinner writer Helen Selsdon Carl Jung Sylla Jonathan National Science Foundation Tara Chevy ADHD Oscar Wilde Henry Murray New York University
Dealing with Hopelessness - AFSP Psychiatrist Dr Christine Moutier

Mental Illness Happy Hour

1:51:45 hr | 2 years ago

Dealing with Hopelessness - AFSP Psychiatrist Dr Christine Moutier

"Welcome to episode four. Oh two. With my guest, Dr Christine, multi. She is the chief medical officer for the American Foundation for suicide prevention, and she's a psychiatrist, and we're gonna talk about how to deal with hopelessness, whether it's you or someone you love, and we got some great surveys plan for today. Some really, really moving ones. Some funny ones, some inspiring ones. Yeah. Hey, if you are near the Minneapolis area on October, thirteenth, come on out for live to live tapings of the podcast at Syphis brewing. Sieff. I swear to God. I'll be more on my game than I am right now. I just got up from a nap Cest brewing in Minneapolis, October, thirteenth, we're going to do two shows five o'clock show with comedian Challe Bjorgman and then at eight o'clock with a return appearance of Nora mcnerney that's going to be at eight o'clock and can't remember if I said that or not, and we're going to have a little bit of audience participation on on that one. I'll put up links to this, but if you go to Sisyphus brewing dot com and click on their comedy or events, comedy events, etc. You'll you'll see that there's links for that. But again, I'll put this under the show notes for today's episode. Speaking of today's episode is sponsored by better help dot com. It's an online therapy provider. And as I've said, many times, I love it. I've been doing it for probably close to two years and my therapist. Donna is just the fucking best. I share everything with her. She has such a compassionate practical approach to developing tools for me to deal with my deep self hatred. I think that should be their banner is we helped Paul with his deep self hatred, but go check it out, go to better help dot com slash mental and make sure you include the slash mental. So they know you came from the podcast, fill out a questionnaire, and then you get matched with it, better, help dot com counselor. And you can experience free week of counseling to see if online counseling is right for you. You need to be over eighteen. I wanna read two surveys, and then we'll get right to the. Right to the interview. Oh, and at the end of today's episode, I didn't do a whole lot in the way of recording in Croatia, but one of the things that did record is seri- trying to pronounce the street names. And if you listen to this podcast today for anything, I think it's worth hearing that alone. This is an awful moment filled out by woman who calls herself living loco and, oh my God, she describes being broken up with. She should write a book about being broken up with the. I was feeling down last Saturday afternoon. It's not uncommon on weekends when I don't have plans and everyone seems to be busy. My boyfriend Jared had also broken up with me two weeks prior, and it had been a shock. We met five months before, and I had a genuinely special feeling about it from the beginning. He was down to earth. Funny, interesting, progressive smart and well, read and genuinely one of the most physically attractive people I ever met when we were together right now, there are people hearing this going by hope he breaks up with you because I'm fucking jealous. How did you find a guy like that? When we were together, we never stopped grinning. His friends and family were authentic, wonderful people, and I'd never been more happier confident. I was invested in quietly thought that he was quote my person. It was all pretty raw, but I had done my best to keep busy. So that afternoon, I decided to go for a long walk to distract myself. Looking at all the expensive horr- houses around the inlets. And bays between the peak I lived on and Sydney's north shore, not long into the walk. I remembered that some months earlier while driving over the nearby bridge, Sharon and I had talked about going for a picnic in the area. I walked back across the main bridge feeling pretty clone, struggling to get him out of my head. I think I was going over his words and what his face looks like. As he told me, he didn't think he was quote on the same page. I remember that at the time I had just been laughing at something and felt my mouth drop from. It's easy smile when Jared's expression intone suddenly changed. I could vividly remember a ringing in my ears that came on. As soon as I realized he was breaking up with me. I think it was shock. A familiar churning. Sensation entered my stomach and he pricked at my face the flood. Floodgates. In my mind trembled is a thousand thoughts of self worthlessness and doubt pushed on the other side pulse on the other side. My chest took on a crumbling sandcastle quality, and I almost felt. If as if I was shrinking, the physical symptoms prompted me to think of my training and reminded me of the control. I have to create space. I stop for a moment and pre deeply. I leaned against the protective great of the bridges walkway and peered through at the different blue ripples through the water. I love by the way to breaking up with someone who suffers from depression on a bridge. I've thought about how the bright white wakes left by sailboats. Looked like those master chef plating techniques for sauces in pure as the coves peaks of land snick perfectly into the arched frame of the Sydney Harbour Bridge my body stilled. I reminded myself. It was all right. I am resilient. I thought to myself. I actually made myself smile and recalled how well I've been doing and how proud I felt of where I was. I had to renewed step when I continued walking and even picked some waddles to put in a vase. When I got home, I was nearly at the crossing to go onto my street. And I happened to look up and see a poster on a telephone pole. The concert he'd planned to take me to. Thank you for that. Oh my God. And then this is a happy moment filled out by a woman who calls herself out, ran my problems and she writes two years ago. I got a dog. He's an Australian cattle dog. The breed is known to need a lot of activity and incredibly loyal, and highly intelligent way. Shout out to Australia to lead a great support from there and to serve surveys in a row from Australia. I was somewhat hesitant to take him because I don't live on a farm like his mother and wasn't sure I'd be able to stimulate him enough. However, while visiting my in-laws who have the mother when he was a puppy of about four weeks old, he broke away from the rest of the pups climbed right up onto my legs and went to sleep. I was sitting with my legs straight out. Leaning back with my hands, holding me up. It was like he had chosen me and that moment I knew I would do anything for him. I took him home and made sure to take him for walks every day is he grew. The walks got longer. And once I got the go-ahead from the vet we started running together. I hadn't run since middle school slowly, but surely we worked our way up and now we can run six miles together without stopping. He usually likes to walk from that point. I however found the desire to run longer. I started to enter races. I started going to run club, so I could gather with a bunch of people on those long slow runs today. He came with me for a six mile run with my run club after it. I looked down at him and realize two years ago. I would never have believe you if you told me I would be running more than a block two years ago, I would have been at home alone, probably crying about how lonely I was. I was very lonely, lonely person, depression, pushing me back down on the couch anytime I tried to get up because of my dog. I am no longer lonely. I have friends and I have a companion. That moment looking down at him. I realized that unhappy and it's all because of him. There's a part of me inside that. I don't want anyone to know about because it's weird and gross and lame and people will hate me. So hard to be on the planet. Does do people please read silent. Invisible wailing stuck in the group all the position. The suicidal Ita Shen embarrassed shine. If I don't get help and get when I need to get. You know, I did some horrible, horrible things. I'm not going to be here much longer God. I wish I could go back and undo them by. Can't snipers shoot in her sights. My father was a notorious pimp in Boston. I can't do this anymore. It was of like Skopje's chain. So many life just by listening to former ability comes down. It felt like I've been holding a sword and shield and dropped. And to this day, I never had a better. Actually, I started crying and a job that of you say like eludes, horrid, Dan, Elise. And I didn't get that job. Here with Dr Christine Mucci a who is a psychiatrist and you are on the moral more than on the board. You're the head officer medical officer for the American Foundation for suicide prevention. So many questions that I want to ask you. How do we support people who are suicidal? How do we support the people that care about them? Not only when that person is suicidal, but if that person does complete suicide, how do we support the people left behind? But before we get to those questions, I want to know what led you. And to this and also as a psychiatrist, we have so few guests that are psychiatrists and not because I don't want them. I don't know if it's just that they're too busy, but it seems to be the profession that has the most amount of mystery. Around it. I think because of the. The art and the science kind of the combination of it that it requires empathy in human connection and seeing the person as a whole. But it also involves neuro science and all that other stuff. And there's by, I hate to say it, but there's a lot of bad ones out there that that don't treat. Patients as if they are a person, they seem to treat them as if they are a disorder. So those are all the questions I want to get to. If you want to touch on any of those as we talk about your story, but let's start with whatever details you're comfortable sharing about. Your life and what led you to this passionate of yours that you have? Sure, grain. Thank you so much for having me on such an important topic that touches far more people than perhaps most people realize some Georgie of Americans who've been personally touched by suicide in some way. So right. So for the last several years, I've served as the chief medical officer for the American Foundation for suicide prevention, which is the largest national nonprofit organization fighting suicide and really trying to make a dent and turn this major public health crisis around. And I, my journey starts with my own personal crisis. That happened while I was in medical school, which sensitized me to kind of the human experience and how it's gonna work for me as a training and going on my path is medicine even for me. Fortunately, I did. Stay found psychiatry, love working with people with mental illness and really any kind of human struggle. Did you have a specialty in mind before you chose psychiatry? Yeah, I thought I would go into family medicine or pediatrics, and I thought you go to medical school to treat patients out there in the community. I had no concept of other types of work that one could do after medical school and after training. But that starting with that personal experience related to mental health for myself. You know, it's one of those situations that you don't wish that kind of experience on anyone on your worst enemy. And yet when you go through it and you come through it with new learnings and a new freedom about how to live your life, and it gives you observational skills also about the culture around you and other people who might be suffering and not having their needs met because of those unwritten rules about culture and the environment. And certainly within medical training, there was a culture that was quite stifling of individual mental health needs, and a lot of fear around what will happen. If I even talk about my experience, let alone get help or get treatment. Unlike the military in some ways will I be placed will is hurt my career. I would imagine. Yes, like there are several occupations, probably actually numerous. For whom the rules might be slightly different. But the same principles apply. If I get treatment, if I take an antidepressant, if I get therapy or even talk about what's actually going on inside my head, am I going to lose my, you know, my gun if I'm a law enforcement officer, my medical license, if I'm a physician and and those are real concerns, but things at least in the field of medicine. And I think other fields as well are changing for the better to treat mental health. Like the health issue that it is there does seem to be a sea change going going on right now. Are you comfortable sharing what your struggles were more specifically? Sure. Yeah, I grew up in an environment. Well, first of all, I have a genetically loaded family history on both sides with mood disorders, psychotic disorders, schizophrenia, bipolar. And kind of didn't realize that until I was in medical school, and you're learning about the genetics of mental illness like, whoa, that actually that that wasn't really part of the situation, but grew up in a family where achievement is really everything defines the children in that family. You are? Yes, yes, conditional love or at least conditional praise. Right, right. And so. I majored in piano performance in college, knowing I was going to go onto met of you. You said it. All right there. You said it all. What's the next thing? I did recital. Okay. Crazy. Yes. Yes, perfectionist. Right. All of that and worrier. Yeah. And you know, that's that's medicine, draws us sort of highly driven perfectionist, dick dot every I and olitical, but also caring and identifying with being a caregiver, not needing help ourselves. So a lot of this is a setup for many, many healthcare professionals. And in my case, it sort of culminated in that classic feeling of. I was so unaccustomed to being in the middle of my class in medical school it, it triggered lots of fears and basically like a growing sort of continuous panic that I'd be failing out at any moment based on anything in particular? No, I did very well. I could tell, but that is what goes through a person's head who's in that situation. And it came to such a culmination that I took time off, and I actually was thinking I needed to leave and drop out of medical school because this was certainly not. I didn't think I was competent enough to become whatever it is that that was happening try you're trying to become in medical school. And fortunately I had a dean who said, no, take time off. And comeback and check in on a quarterly basis while ended up taking a year off and getting treatment, and that experience of therapy was life changing because essentially when you when you figure out what those internal voices that are so punitive and perfectionist stick and you don't apply them to anyone else, but your zone know if somebody talked to you the way we talked to ourselves, you would get a restraining order, right? And really just, you know, getting some clarity about that. It was. You know, they say that psychotherapy is more effective when there is a time constraint. And I had to make a decision about whether I was going back to medical school within a few months. And so it sort of accelerates the process of the motivation to figure things out. So were the specific thoughts and executives, and how did they present themselves? Was there suicidal Ita Shen. Some, but not that wasn't the most prominent. It was more of a feeling of if I am not and fill in the blank in my case, top of my class, feeling secure. Perfect. Then I might not be worth breathing air and taking space on this planet. I mean, it's that illogical irrational, but I think again, I what I learned after my own experience is that these kinds of negative distorted thoughts are incredibly common. And of course more common if there's a mental health condition that's shaping your brain and your thinking that kind of distorted thinking, but it's extremely common even without a mental health condition. And especially if we were raised in homes where there was for lack of a better term, emotional poverty, you know where it was. There was love, but there wasn't any kind of script for how to express feelings or feelings were deemed to be messy or uncomfortable or weakness and who wouldn't run into their head. If you believe that that that is. The truth? Yes, yes, exactly. So the amazing thing that happened was that there was some some significant sort of progress and resolution that allowed me to go back to school with a new set of rules that says, you are a worthwhile person because you're alive on this planet and that applies to every human being on the planet, including myself. And I hope that we all can embrace that if you if you struggle with that at all, because it gives you a new freedom to find out what you are supposed to be doing and what makes sense for you as well as sort of fulfilling your purpose if you believe in that kind of that kind of thing. And, and I want to add for people who've made grievous mistakes. Because a lot of people will look at their past and say, oh, you know, I hurt someone or I was selfish, or I did, blah, blah, blah. If if you are seeking to become a better person, that is all that matters and everyone I, I may take grief for this, but I believe serial killers deserve compassion. I think that the society should absolutely be protected from them. But they're still a human being and I believe all human beings are worthy of love. I just kind of viewed them as as dogs that bite, and they need to be muzzled, but that that's kind of my take on it because I, as you were saying that, I know that there were some people who were thinking. Yeah, but I'm not worthy because you know, I treated my kids like shit or I was a burglar or etcetera, etcetera? Yes, yes, that's right. We all could have our own reasons for making ourselves the exception to our otherwise compassionate view of all of humanity. That's why you should always watch Hitler documentary because on a curve, you're kicking ass. Well, so so anyway, to fast forward, what that experience gave me was a new sensitivity to all of those things in the environment and other people who might be experiencing challenges. And lo and behold challenges are ubiquitous in human beings, including among my colleagues at the time who were other medical students than residents and physicians, hope they'll per one second. What was it specifically that helped you get. To the place where you could go back. Was it anything other than just time and reflection? Not into the song highness? Well, for me, there was a very specific experience that happened in the course of psychotherapy where I figured out what that internalized voice that was so punitive was about and actively rejected it for a period of time. I had to reframe it, recognize it sort of fight it grapple with it, choose to believe what I actually did believe again about the rest of human beings for myself. So it's a very active process. And is that was that CBT or is you don't have to name it? That's all right. It it. I wouldn't even know what to call it. The I would love to give a shout out. She's no longer alive, but my therapist was an incredible woman. She was the ex wife of Jonas Salk of the Salk polio vaccine ullmark, Donna sulk as if that family hasn't done enough, and she was is a social was a social worker and was in her older years at the time. And she was sitting rocking chair, and I would think what is happening, no progress is happening here. You know how psychotherapy feels it's slow, but in hindsight, in a few short months, that is quite tremendous that those discoveries and sort of resolves were made that are forever with me to this day and are what I when I see people who are being so self punitive and whatever is driving their struggle or distress or suicidal thinking, I do have this incredible compassion. That's both based on my training is a psyche. Dia tryst knowing about the neurobiology of the brain, but also having that empathy for the fact that anyone can suffer and can can go to that place. It sounds like we need to tackle the nature and the nurture aspect of suffering. Yes, yes, one hundred percent. So back to where I cut you off. So you came back with this new kind of insight and passion. Right. And I got lucky to in my training program, my training director turned out to be my lifetime mentor and now friends is this. And so over the years. Psychiatry training was a good fit for me. And so I felt and was able to also both teach support more junior trainees. And you know, that feels nothing feels better than helping other people for most by the time I was in my last year, I was chief resident. And again through. Many different opportunities and mentorship, you know, I think no one necessarily forges their path alone. You you, you're lucky if your, if it's a good fit and you're able to be authentic and honest, and there's something about your work that you're connecting to and it leads onto the next thing. And so for me, what ended up happening was I happen to be joining the faculty at UCSD at a time when there wasn't a lot of awareness about physician distress wasn't welcome necessarily to talk about it, but some of us were talking about it and thinking about it. And then as the medical center and medical school lost several physicians about one a year over a period of years to suicide. Then there was this growing sense on the part of the top level leadership at the hospital and the medical school that we should really look at this and do some. Thing about it if there is anything that can be done. And so even though I was trained as Chitral by then I had become by that point in time, I have been a residency training associate training director in psychiatry and then moved into the medical school as a system team for student affairs and medical education. So I was afforded this awesome role to be able to be interacting with hundreds of medical students residents and shaping curriculum culture and programming. And fortunately, like I mentioned through the course of those terrible losses of colleagues, the leadership became ready to explore. What would suicide prevention even look like four physicians? Does the environment have anything to do with a population suicide risk, which to be perfectly honest, I didn't know the science at the time to understand that. Absolutely. The environment and the culture has a lot to do with a population suicide risk, but I didn't know that. So we went on kind of a search to look at what. Has worked for for other populations. What does the science say? And one thing we found was the United States Air Force suicide prevention program that had used a thirteen pronged approach to train every level of the hierarchy in the military in the air force about mental health needs about the warning signs of suicide risk to teach that these are human struggles really de stigmatizing the experience not a we discuss right to normal reaction to stress. Yes. And then so it's training that works to address stigma. It's also some skills training about how to have carrying conversations with people in distress, and it's learning and figuring out which policies in your system are actually inadvertently discriminating against people who are struggling and keeping them silent. So you have to create pathways for accessing support and mental health care that in. Sure is that there's no punitive consequence while I did not know that about the about the air force, right. Well, in the case of the air force, what are the reasons we decided to kind of model our approach after there's is they had a successful outcome of reducing the suicide rate which had been on the rise at the time in in the air force members by thirty three percent. So that's a very, that's a very significant reduction in suicide prevention. Suicide prevention is hard because it's multifaceted and. Requires reaching people at moments when they are more likely to withdraw from any programming and messaging that you're trying to do as a leadership. Yeah, it was so often reminds me of a wounded animal that just wants to go hide and look. It's wounds because it feels like even more pain too. When we can't even put into words, what is that? We're feeling other than not wanting to be alive to have to sit down and expose that part of ourselves and the fear that I'm going to miss describe it or I'm not going to be able to do it, and then I'll realize it I'm just an exaggerated or or whatever the thoughts are that swirling. It's just this oppressive grey blanket that that. Is so overwhelming and yet so hard to describe and I would add, I agree with everything you're saying. And if you keep it locked up internally, it tends to spiral around and become for grow in its level distortion. Whereas if you're sitting with somebody who is carrying generally supportive, they do not necessarily have to be an expert, but that can hear you just listen and tolerate it at a minimum and not judge. There is something that happens in that process of bringing it out into the open even with one other person that can be incredibly helpful and therapeutic on its own. Let alone what might happen next to further explore or address anything that's underlying those sort of distortions and self punitive feelings that would imagine to for people who are perfectionist. The idea of going into something there. So gray. Nuanced it. It's terrifying to be able to, you know. Do this thing that you don't know how to get a leg up on before you go do it. There's such a leap of faith and a feeling of under under preparedness. That of course, once we're in it, we realize there's no preparation for it. It's just about the dynamic of leading. What's inside of us out and having another person help us with it. Yes, not about intelligence. I mean, you're reminding me of of a more maybe generalize will experience which I certainly feel like for my own life. And I think others who have experienced trauma or crisis and come through it. We'll talk about which is a newfound freedom. We also see this in our in our network in the American Foundation for suicide prevention, people who are advocating for change and for saving other lives after they've been touched by the loss of their own. Loved one suicide. It's such a game changer. You're so freed up to do what really matters to you that in many ways that that usual way of feeling anxious, which we all still feel at times all those human things. There's something else that drives you pass that and it's an incredibly freeing experience, especially if you find that it's positive and it's working in whatever way that means for your, you know your life and your work, your volunteerism, whatever. The feeling of meaning and purpose is the best muscle relaxer I've ever discovered and I don't need a prescription to get it. There's a part of my brain that battles it that wants to keep me isolated in my recliner, but. Having a support network where I'm reminded that I matter and that I can help other people and by helping other people I'm helping myself because I'm deepening. A sense of. What it means to be alive and it's beyond the cu-ltive materialism and success, and it's it's hard to put into words, but I know you know, you're not in your head. Is there a way that you can kind of elaborate on that for your put your own two cents in or visit? Have we kind of completed the idea? I, I think there there could be. I love what you're saying about. There is something in this experience that's incredibly counterculture to the prevailing, at least superficial norms around what being a successful person amounts to. Because the truth is none of that external stuff gets you this internal experience of. Joy, purpose, painting focus piece, right? And again, this is not to say that that it doesn't. Include other human experiences of suffering. You can. The the amazing thing that I'm seeing in. To some extent my own life. But especially as many advocates in suicide prevention speak about their experiences. They talk about their daily struggles, their chronic, recurrent struggles with whatever it might be an anxiety disorder, chronic suicidal Ita Shen, but they have this new perspective that uses tools and discoveries that knows how to manage it, and they're actively doing that. It's it's a day to day moment by moment, sometimes experience and when they drawn network of others to help them with that, it's incredibly empowering. It's beyond words beyond words. It really isn't. And. One thing that that you said, maybe think of something that I really want to talk about which is for that person out there whose thinking will what is talking to somebody else going to do for my problems, which are real problems. I have financial problems. You know, I'm under this tremendous amount of strain and talking about it does nothing I have chronic pain or something, you know, and and this is both. I want to say talking about it with a therapist can help shape the this mediator. That is the layer of your mind that while it might not change your financial debt will change the outcome of how you choose and how you're able not just choice. It's actual ability recently address it in a different way. Yes. You will get a different outcome actually, objectively different outcome through that change small but significant changes that you can do through psychotherapy or other modalities. But it also want to speak to just this idea of why would I tell anyone about these kind of embarrassing experiences I have with the where my thoughts go and my moods and my problems like it's just it's it's so who wants to hear about it and it's nothing I wanna talk about. Many people have been. We all probably have been so socialized to keep that locked up and under wraps and just present the happy face. And what I would say process for really, although Facebook is getting used for these, these kinds of John actually Gloser's to, yes, it can be very powerful. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But right now it can be amazing. But yet it's both ways. I just have to tell you, I don't know that there's anything we're going to say to convince you, but you just have to try it. Yes, hick one person you trust and try going deeper and see what you get back and, and just let that be a genuine sort of experiment. And then you can decide whether you want to pursue that further. But I will just tell you that for myself, it's a game changer. You feel connected, you know, you're not alone, and you also get new ideas because people love sharing what worked for them. And just that experience of connecting is so important and powerful on the most primitive level for us, and it may feel terrifying at first Mike experience has been specially with support groups is it begins to feel like a jacuzzi, my support group meetings. I feel safer there than I do any. Other place on the planet. I feel connected. I feel purposeful. I feel we laugh, we cry, we support each other. I've shared my darkest secrets and it's been met with love and compassion, and other people have opened up to me about their things. And when you see somebody once a week that you share that bond with and you hug each other and it's or you make a fucked up joke and you both laugh your ass off. It's it's what I wanted my whole life. I used to think that a safe future was going to come from me being exceptional in what I did professionally, and it led me to being the most despondent suicidal financially successful as I've ever been. And I'm glad I hit that dead end because I. Didn't realize that there was a spiritual, not religious, but a spiritual emptiness inside me because all I cared about was myself and I needed this cross the bear, I believe to be able to have to connect other people and learn how to be vulnerable, but it it is the most beautiful gift in the ugliest wrapping paper, right? I mean, you're talking about how a deep dark crisis can change a person, their course, so fundamentally and lead to positive things that you never could have imagined. But what one thing that I the way I see it is that many people suffer and have that crisis, but keep it so closed up that and think that if I just brush it under the rug and try to move on as if it didn't happen, it's a new. Day, so I don't have to go there that you miss out on that opportunity and and and maybe worse. So it doesn't necessarily always go that way. I think it depends on what happens in the during the crisis and after that crisis in terms of talking about it openly and that's, that's really the key to everything else that can come next and having patience with the process, realizing that it's not linear to lot of two steps forward. One step back, but the overall momentum will be forward in a lot of times what feel feels like the mistakes quote, unquote along the way. Can be a learning experience that can not only benefit us in the long run because we gain wisdom about maybe how to decide who to let in who to be vulnerable around. But we're able to share that with somebody else and say, gosh, that person in your life that feels like your best friend. The way they talk to you is really kind of mean or let's look at their actions. You know this, I would call this a toxic person. You might wanna rethink your relationship with them. And if you hadn't opened up to somebody who is toxic and you know, you had a bad experience with it, you wouldn't be able to share with them. God hears this moment in recovery. I had that felt like over recovery doesn't work, but in hindsight, no, it just refined my ability to kind of get a gauge of who safe in who isn't. That makes sense. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, right that that is a key thing that I would say if you're somebody who has been thinking about. Talking about your experience of either being suicidal of an attempt or of losing someone to suicide or other mental health experiences for that matter, I would say take it slow and pick individuals who are very trustworthy and you know that they can handle it and they don't. They have a level of understanding that is probably different from the average person we at if us p, we actually even created a resource to help people prepare, especially if they were going to start speaking publicly about these experiences so that they were emotionally ready for it because there can be a bit of a. Unexpected emotional experience later if you're not quite ready for it. Yes. So just being sort of understanding that big picture and then also understanding some of the pragmatic implications. If you talk about, you know your your experience with depression or PTSD or a suicide attempt, and your workplace isn't yet ready for that. Doesn't understand that mental health is a part of health and therefore should have the exact same approach as any health condition flu or. Yes, WBZ's whatever Yemen we're in a time of transition. So some workplaces are amazing that way and others are not quite there yet. So you want just set things up in a way that it's going to go really well for you. And of course that you provide a safe and effective hopeful message for other people. So what are some tips for that. Or whereas resource where people can learn tips for that. Yeah. If you go to, if SP dot org, you'll find a whole lot of resources including how to tell your story and it's a resource that's that's what it's called. But some of the tips in there are just kind of taking some time to reflect and think through what is it going to feel like on the other side of that public speaking event. Am I gonna be okay with a level of disclosure, especially if this is the first time you know, many people get very accustomed to seeing this just could be one on one with your boss. When you say public speaking of you don't mean at electron in front of two hundred people? Well, it could be both the the resource we've made with specifically for speaking at public events because we have so many out of the darkness walks. I have opportunities to elevate the conversation about suicide and mental health through the combination of personal storytelling along with some chunky education about what the science tells us and and what's actionable. You know what anyone can do to play a role in suicide prevention. It is. There is a hunger like this, like never before it is really amazing. Any any other tips for somebody who is afraid to open up, be it at in the workplace or just in general they're, they're suffering. They are replaying the idea of suicide over and over in their brain. Maybe they're getting close to making a plan, right? If you're in a place where you're actively struggling with, whether you're going to stay alive or not, I would not go into this space of talking to anyone who is risky at all non crisis yet people exactly. Non healthcare professionals and people who have proven themselves to be very trustworthy and capable of of going to that place with you and tolerating it and just checking back in with you about the guy who operates the till two world, would he not be something up to. What if he looks trustworthy and he runs a nice ride, you never know. He might have his own experiences in all likelihood is. Harmful at? Yes, there's some fucked up shit in his background. Oh, well, I'm talking about the whole population. So we did this Harris poll at af SP along with the national action alliance for suicide prevention. And we surveyed two thousand American adults, and it turns out that fifty, five percent of individuals have either had an experience of loss to suicide, not necessarily in their close family, but in their community or their network, or they have thought of suicide, or they've attempted or a loved one has struggled in those ways. So we are talking about the majority of individuals. The prevalence of these experiences of having a thought about taking one's life. I mean, there are the the prevalence, especially among youth of suicidal idealization. It's about one in five within a twelve month period, we'll think of suicide. It doesn't mean that they're, they take it any further, but it could indicate that there's risk of suicide there. So we just we need in a way to me what suicide prevention is all about. It's facing these facts that are all around us, whether we want to go there or not. But those of us who are quipped in wired to do it can help lead into a space where everyone can get comfortable enough. So that just like you would do hopefully if you saw somebody bleeding and you, you know, I general first-aid that people would know how to have this kind of caring conversation that's essentially like mental health first aid. So. There were times when I more common than the I need to kill myself was the, oh, fuck. I didn't die in my sleep again. I just don't want to be alive. I don't wanna kill myself address that space, which I think so many of us live in and it's such a prison. Yeah. Yeah. You're really talking about what the clinical term for it is passive suicidal Ita Shen that wish that something could just end my life without me having to actively pursue that. The love turbulence on planes because I would think, oh, please do it for me. Right. And that turns out to be as serious as thoughts that are more active about finding your own method. So you're suicidal and lazy. That's true. Now, I think our minds just are do certain things based on lots of different factors, and it is really fascinating. I mean, the most encouraging thing to me is that. That does exist that does exist for many people for some people, it will be short experience and for other people, it'll be a longer term experience, but that there is a way through that beyond that to something new and different for for many. Now for some their brains will keep on that path. And again, then it's more this question of how do I manage that? How do I remind myself that that is my brain taking me there, but that does not have to be the way I choose to respond or to see myself very hard to to sort of grapple with your own internal machinery of your brain, but people are people can do it that is the heart of the thinking of an addict or an alcoholic, is it? It is a way of viewing reality. That is that is warped and will be there forever, but we get better. It catching it and seeing, oh, okay, this is this is not reality. This is my. My one of my thousand fears warping this situation, and I just need to let go right here and not try to future trip and. You know, be a control freak, which I think is hard for people who have had their trust violated as children. It's very hard to let go and say, okay, let's this is just my mind for my central nervous system in fighter flight mode or whatever. Yes, whatever it is. And I think people learn different tools of how to respond to that in the most effective way, that kind of makes sense for them. And those are tools that people sometimes find on their own or they find through cognitive behavioral therapy since you brought that up, that is the quintessential evidence based treatment that helps people empowers them with their own cognitive tools, and it's not just it could be what you think and say to yourself. It also could be what you do to kind of reboot your brain into a new space that is more healthy and seeing the big picture. You know, people learn what that will, what. Does that for them, right. Dialectical. Behavior therapy? Yeah. Another huge, huge tool specially for people with borderline personality disorder. Yes. Can you talk about that a little boom? Sure. I mean, DBT is so remarkable and so powerful for certainly for people with borderline personality disorder. Certainly, if somebody has attempted suicide, DBT is one of a handful of the most powerfully suicide risk, reducing treatments. It's been studied for, like you mentioned people with personality disorder, but also people with substance use disorders eating disorders. It's been studied in adolescence who've attempted, and now there's even a study of DBT for pre Pugh Bessant children aged seven to twelve who have this regulates, mood disorder and DBT not only works with the person so that they can learn new emotion and behavioral regulation skills instead of outbursts or withdrawing or self hating. In isolation? Yep. There's some. There's some strategies that involve mindfulness and just pausing before reacting and then beyond that other strategies and actually skills that they'll practice and use. But the beautiful thing, especially in the case of these adolescent and and children approach with DBT is that it's all about that with the person and with the family unit and with parents and skills-based consideration, right? You leave therapy and you go back to your home environment, and can you be in a place that is also supporting those same types of skills and practices? Or is it actually the space that triggers you more? Because of course, as the parent, it's extraordinarily stressful to have a child or a teen who is thinking of suicide who's reacting emotionally in outbursts or attempting suicide. Nothing more stressful than that. And so that require. Wires working with the parents as well. So anyway, DBT is phenomenal. If from what I understand some policemen even use it in in attempting to de escalate situations where someone is being potentially violent and from what I understand. It's a way of letting that person know that you hear them, you understand where they're coming from, but here's a different point of view, or here's how I want to help you. So it sounds like you're inviting each other to be a part of your team when this conflict is happening rather than there's going to be Victor and vanquished in this situation, which I would imagine his where all esscalation happens is is feeling like we are pitted against each other rather than, hey, let's make sure that there's not a misunderstanding here because I think I might understand where you're coming from. Than you think I do or if you're the person who is upset instead of lashing out and saying, you know, I hate you. You're the worst person in the world. Saying. I'm feeling really frightened right now. I'm feeling really frustrated. I feel like nobody cares about me or that you're not interested in me. That's Atra Tetra and yes, I know in my own life that has helped me in relationships when I just want to explode or isolate to be able to express what I'm feeling rather than pointing fingers. Yes. And I'm so glad you brought up that sort of coming on the same team and working together because even in treatment, you'd think that you think that there are counselors are trained that way and many are, but when it comes to the suicide topic, sometimes that can go. In a different direction because it's so anxiety provoking for the therapist, and they need to go into the mode of listing out there. Questions of the suicide risk assessment will. The person has just shared something credibly, privacy, private, maybe risky, and now they're being sort of grilled with a series of questions because you not what they need in that moment. Right, right. And so there are approaches that are really coming out now into the clinical space to help therapists. Help doctors understand that there's a better way to allow the person to tell their story and then to do the suicide risk assessment, and even there's some brief short term treatment modalities. I'll mention one called it's abbreviated cams collaborative assessment and management of suicide -ality, which was meant to just bridge a brief period of time between the time of discharge from an a psychiatric. Unit or the emergency department. Let's say after a suicide attempt after person is attempted until they have time to get connected to outpatient care. So it was designed for this sort of bridging period, which is actually a very important time frame for people who are at risk for suicide, but it's turned into a more broad, reaching treatment approach where the therapist literally sits next to the client, and they work through reasons for living and reasons for dying. They use kind of a series of things that they look at together. And the idea is that the patient is through some motivational interviewing types of approaches is engaged. That part of them that is holding onto hope that wants to stay safe and they can engage in that process together and work on what are your triggers? Can we can we use a safety plan. That's a very common practice these days. That's very important that everyone should know about safety plan. If you've never heard of it and. You're somebody who does hit some crisis points or suicidal thinking, it's something you could even learn about yourself, but therapists could use it, but other peer to peer, it's being used in all sorts of different ways where the person engages in. What are my triggers? What are my best practices that I can use skills internally, who can I count on outside of myself? Who can I call and how do I keep my environment safe? And these are things that individuals will engage with. So this is, I mean, it seems so basic and yet in the treatment scenario that has not always been assumed that a person is willing or able to do that. And that certainly in some circumstances, people aren't when when they're acutely at risk, but it's far more than than people may have realize, you know, as you were sharing the image of the therapists sitting next to the person, the other thought that occurred to me was. It is a fact on the ground for that person that they matter. It is. I think when people are at their most suicidal, the belief is that we don't matter or even worse that we're burden, which I understand is a really common thought for people who attempt and what a, what a great idea to to have somebody. I mean, it's such common sense that in your moment of need, if you were injured on the battlefield, people wouldn't shout to you. Hey, man, I hope your leg gets better, right? Yeah. Yeah, it's absolutely so true everything you're saying and that that if therapy is supposed to be therapeutic, but family members can also facilitate and be part of creating an environment. That number one has to be aware that suicidal thoughts are happening. So that's the first thing is we need to get rid of that stigma so that we can talk about these things in our homes and in our friendships. And then to know that just a little bit of basic knowledge about where the mind can go because I think many people, they're open minded to the idea of mental health being real, but they don't understand necessarily that that means it's common for people when they get into whatever space it is crisis depression. That their mind will play tricks on them. They will convince themselves that that people are better off without them. And so a lot of those myths that are out there hopefully diminishing about suicide just simply don't make sense if you understand some of these basic things about what a person is actually going through when they're in that state of of crisis. There's a different game plan for someone who is in suicidal idealization because they are, you know, future tripping and extrapolating their fears and a vague kind of way. And someone who is in the present moment, perhaps dealing with chronic pain or something that it has nothing to do with them. Thinking about the future, the present in not based on future thoughts. The present is so painful. Well, you bring up the fact that people come to think about. Suicide in an infinite number of pathways and ways that get them there. So I think you know, if you're if you are a pain specialist working with people with chronic pain, a starting point would be to realize that suicidal idealization is very, very common in people who live with chronic pain because it is a load to carry and to process on a moment to moment basis for those individuals. So resilience does get worn down by definition doesn't it's not a matter of strength of character it. We're human were very dynamic in that way, but I think the approach will ideally should be customized to what the person and this again, back to the narrative, allowing people to tell their stories that you have to actually understand how they got there rather than just thinking, oh, suicidal idealization. How do I fix it? Yep. This monolithic thing that's really not understanding how to help the purse. Listen best. So how do we as let's say, we're a loved one. Somebody comes to us with suicidal idealization. You know the difference between somebody who's like, man, I'm so tired of being alive to, you know, I just want to let you know that every day I'm out standing on a bridge and really close people won't hand it to you on a platter quite that clearly they might and certainly, but any hint around hopelessness, feeling trapped overwhelmed or like a burden, or if you're living with the person, you know their day to day patterns of sleep, eat energy, socializing their favorite activities as much as we do have free will as autonomous individuals are behavioral patterns are kind of like our our, our biological patterns in our body. They, they. I tend to stay in a narrow range unless something significant is causing shift. And so I really encourage people just trust your instinct. If something seems off what is going to be the harm in having a carrying check in type of conversation, and really even if they don't tell you everything that's going on starting the process of inviting it that that's part of the deal. Many people aren't ready to talk about these deeper things because it's not necessarily been part of the sort of, you know, pattern of your friendship or your relationship with them, but you can go there. And I think we oftentimes don't go there because we don't know what to say and we get nervous. We're not sure if it's going to fend the person. And so then next thing we do is we rationalize not even saying anything we sell. They're just stressed because something's going on their life. Well, guess what? There's always something going on in life. But if you notice something. It's probably significant enough to ask about and it seems like the things that you shared that hesitations that the person has that it would be fine to preface. With those things and remind the person that you care about them, you know, I, I, I care about you and I just been. I could be making it up, but it seems like you're withdrawing a lot and. Forgive me. If I've, you know, being nosy, I just bizarre. Anything that you want to talk about and I and I hope I'm not being rude or offending you. But again, I care about you and I just want you to know I'm here to listen and help you in any way that I can absolutely one hundred percent and you. The key thing I would say is, as you said, be direct, say I care about you and I'm here to support you. I want to understand if stuff is going on in your life because I've noticed x, y, and z, and just be that direct because if they are in distress and now you're approaching them in this new and sort of weird different way their minds going to start going what what's happening judging me. No other people. Yes. So if you just lay it out clearly and you have to say the things that are in your head, like I'm not going to judge you. I am really interested in supporting you because I care about you. You know, maybe trying to embarrass you. Exactly, right. But I think I think we would probably apologize more than we need to. If you, it's almost the kind of thing that you need to just kind of like make your little talking points and just stick to it and be direct and say, I really want to have this conversation with you because I care about you and I've noticed x, y, and z, would you feel comfortable talking to me about what's been happening in your life? And it's really that this is not going to be the language of mental health symptoms. This is going to be the conversation of what is going on in their life, and it's going to be the way that they talk about that that you have to be listening for those cues of as I mentioned, hopelessness, feeling trapped or like a burden or that the stress is affecting their physical body. That many of us we. Y'all have physical bodies. Our brain is part of the physical body, and we do experience stress, depression, anxiety, PTSD addiction in very physical ways. So again, which affects the thinking and absolutely the actions and it's this. That's right. Big circle it is. I mean, you have to realize that the person is if they're in a state of distress or crisis, they're not necessarily having access to all of their usual since of humor, creative problem solving. You know, those things might be sort of dismantled and put off locked up in a room that they will access later. But right now understand that there is something different that a force at work that you can be just by being a listening ear and being supportive, you can help normalize what they're going through in a sense, at least normalized the experience of talking about in. And and be possibly a stepping stone that helps lead them to the next positive thing that's going to help them. I would continue to be a friend just like you would check in with a friend who's going through a hard time about anything grief or financial hardships or whatever. A good friend tends to remember that and asks about it when they see the person next or might go out of their way to reach out and ask about it. We absolutely need to remember to do that when it comes to these deeper sharing conversations because when they do happen and the person never checks in again, it's a very weird message that that sends to the person, you know, like maybe that wasn't okay with them and you're, you're again, all those negative distortions is the person's kind of left to sort of spin that out into different place. Something that that I've heard people share as well is if that person is stuck in that place of immobility. Hopelessness to offer to help find a therapist to drive them to their first appointment to sit in the waiting room and wait for them to to to aid them in a way that isn't you trying to fix them. Right. And in a way, if you are that kind of friend, if they had a broken leg or we're going in for same day surgery that you would offer to drive it is exactly the same. Then for this mental health piece, I think that can be a guide post people will often wonder like especially in the workplace or in friendships in a family will how do I approach this? Because it all is so tangled up and feels very overwhelming and the family members emotions are getting triggered as well. And I think a very grounding principle is what would you do if there were an acute physical health crisis right now you would come around, you would say. Support you would make sure that they're their immediate medical needs are being met and then you would follow up. And so whatever your relationship allows for in that kind of space. Same thing for mental health. And I would say the same thing applies for people who have lost a loved one to suicide. So often even in this day and age, when things have changed dramatically or at least that movement is growing in huge numbers in terms of people being so much more open and taking a stigma out of suicide. And if that's the cause of death calling it, what it is and people will even use the term by the way of, I lost my loved one to his depression or to his addiction and and going there in terms of the route that they believe drove the suicide. That's that's helpful to. But again, for the community and friends to not support that person in a moment of intense complex grief is just it's frankly inhumane and probably shame. Yeah. Survivor guilt of I shoulda shoulda shoulda, which is never the case, correct? Yeah, that that search for why is a given after a loss to suicide has occurred because of course your mind is going to try to reconstruct everything that happened. What did I miss? And here's the deal with with suicide death, all of us see one slice of the pie, and we only see a very limited portion of that slice and the the truth is very hard, which is that no one will probably ever have access to the full story. Certainly not internally what the person was experiencing nor the possible long-term risk factors that were starting to erupt and come to bear based on an interaction that happens between multiple risk factors that lead to that death. So so the why search can be extremely obsessional and excruciating. Many. Let alone the shame the self, blaming the blaming all around. But needless to say, it's a time with lots of mixture of emotions. And so as a friend, you don't have to figure all that out. You don't even have to go there. You can just say, I'm here for you. You can bring them food like you normally would. If somebody loses a loved one. And you can. You can say, the person's name who died. So oftentimes people just don't touch it and the family members, some of them, some law survivors really want to remember their loved one. They want to talk about their life. They wanna remember them for what they were in their life, not just by the way they died. Yes. It's something that we did when I was married, my mother-in-law died and after the funeral we watched home movies of her and it was so soothing to just remember how much she made us laugh how much she laughed at herself and it it was. It was really, it was really great. Yes, yes. And that same thing can happen after a suicide death, even though it for a period, it will be very complicated and wrapped up around the way that the person died and address. I got. I don't know what to say. Because I don't want to say the wrong thing. I, I'm just a can imagine how much pain you're in and. The biggest mistake that I hear people make is they want to try to change with that person is feeling well, you know, you still have three other children, right? Or you have this beautiful home hor. Yes, it's this platitudes and sort of. People trying to come up with something. I think it is far better to say. I, like you said, I can't imagine what you are going through, but I do want to be here for you and I'm not gonna stay away. I'm I'm going to be here just showing up is a key principle for suicide grief that period as well as for after a suicide attempt. That's another period where sometimes family members and friends don't know what to do and they're so afraid of triggering them into a bad place. Again, they don't know what to talk about, but come around. You can sit with the person, talk with them, be silent, followed their cues, ask them, how do we have conversations that are helpful to you where you are right now and whatever you need, many people who are in a place to be able to actually process what happened and how did I end up attempting the. The their their path while not linear is is something of a recovery experience in if you are look, no one's going to be perfect as the family and friends around that because you can't read the person's mind, but you can communicate in a loving and nonjudgmental way that's respectful of their space while you take care of yourself too. Because again, this is very triggering for family members, but to try to be sort of intelligent about what is your boundary of taking care of your own needs and not really putting that on both ways. The other common. Mistake that I hear people make, and I, I know I've been guilty of this is let me know if there's anything you need, which is really our way of giving ourselves in out making ourselves look like a good person. I should just speak for myself. Something that I tried to do instead now, because I know as the other person, I already feel like a burden, so I'm not going to pick up the phone and say, I haven't been able to cook for myself, right? Or I've been crying all day and I just really wants somebody to. I just need a shoulder, lay my head on. What I try to do now is I say, I would love to bring you food on Tuesday afternoon. Would it be okay if I did that and. I think that things like that are help concrete things with a day in mind and letting the person know that you want to do that. Right, right. You're taking the initiative. They're not having to expend the energy to try to decide anything other than say, yes, thank you. So it'd be helpful and, and I'd like to hang out with you, right? Yep. Yeah. I mean, this is this is hard, but I think these are definitely the guiding principles to show up and not avoid to ask, can I do such and such? And please do feel free to tell me if if that's not what you need. To just be open to that kind of dialogue. But understanding that this is a moment where the person is not their, their energy is being taken up by something else, especially if this is suicide loss grief, and it's a very, very intense grieving period and resist the urge to make it about you. Yeah, right. Which for narcissist like me, it's very hard. It's for everybody. Everyone lives in their own heads in their own walk ins and then their own shoes. And you know, you want to be helpful, but we don't. We haven't always been conditioned by our families or our cultural norms in our neighborhoods wherever we are in the world to know what that looks like. We've lost the art of just connecting. It's just I think it's. And we have to find ways to counter that. And I think that's why impart this conversation around deep authenticity with this human experience that can intercept with mental health can intersect with a lot of things is so important that we model that that we promote that that we help people who don't want to, but they're not sure, and it's so much easier to just stay with the status quo and stay locked up. But to invite that change to happen, that is such a beautiful thing, and it is amazing to see that happening around the country in so many different ways. How do we know if somebody we care about is considering suicide? How do we know when to just be the ear to listen to them and went to call for help right alike as in nine one one or what? What are the resources? What I should do? If if you are having this dialogue and the person is not just having thoughts of, I'd be better off dead or unthinking of this method, and you know that they have access to that method and they are not giving you any indication of a different way of thinking or coping. In that moment, I would be very seriously trying to make sure that either that day or very shortly thereafter, they're getting connected with a mental health professional or even their primary care doctor. That's another way that you can go. If it's just there is like it's hard to get in with a mental health person right away, which is true in so many places. But really I would reserve calling nine one one. For a period where they are actively. Harming themselves or they are in the process because what can happen when the police show up and that process can be so traumatizing that shaming. Yeah, yes. And and there is a time for it because certainly you want to save a life that's first priority. With with the caveat in all this being that even clinicians can't predict suicide risk. Really, there's there's no science that tells us how to do that. The suicide risk assessment helps, but it's more like just connecting and following up and getting them onto a long-term path of deeper kind of recovery. So so I really would encourage people that getting the police involved. Is to be avoided unless there is an imminent current threat to life and to safety. Now, bringing them to a local ER can be an option if you're just really not sure, and you're very, very worried, especially if they'll go with you. Okay. If they won't go with you. Obviously, you can't bring them to an ER, right? If they won't them what I would do if they're not actively harming themselves right now and not about to momentarily I will call the national suicide prevention, lifeline as the helper friend and get their guidance, they'll talk to you. They'll talk to the person of concern if they will talk to the train counselor at the lifeline, and they will help you figure out where is this at what needs to happen. Now, the lifeline, the crisis text line to let me give you those the ways to access them and we'll put the links to all of this on the show notes for this episode, right? The lifeline is one, eight hundred two, seven, three talk, and the crisis text line for people who prefer text than to get on the phone is text. The word talk to seven, four one, seven, four one and twenty four, seven. These systems are actively having dialogue. We show they will respond to you. You? Yes, I'm such and such. What's what's going on? Yes. And and as I mentioned, you can be the helping person to get some guidance in a in an acute moment where you're not really sure like you're saying, is this an imminent threat to their safety or not in the vast majority of cases, if that conversation has been helpful and they've, they've shared with you some and there's a plan moving forward and ways to check in with each other. That is the way to go. Certainly if they'll take a referral or if you can drive them to see their doctor or two therapist helped them find won all those things are excellent. And if you're not sure how to find a mental health professional, there are links on our website for that as well. If you go to af espe- dot org and find support. There are a couple of treatment finder links both for mental health conditions and one specifically for substance use problems. There's so many other questions that I want to ask you about psychiatry and medication. But I think I'm going to wait till you're in town and we'll do a return episode if you would be kind enough to come be a guest again, it sounds great. I'm so glad that we were able to do this and thanks for taking the time out and the sharing such such great information. Thank you. Thanks for what you do and your work. It's amazing. Cannot wait to get her back on the on the podcast. Let's get to some great surveys on. And if you guys have never filled out surveys, anybody that's new to the show. I know apple podcasts is featuring the podcast on their homepage this week and many many thanks to them. So if you're a new listener, go fill out the the surveys there on our website and then told pod dot com and really helps us get to know you the listener and you guys have some amazing stories and thoughts and insights and feelings to share. I wanna give shout out to our sponsor for today's episode, my row, it is a natural deodorant. I've used natural deodorants in the past and when I was approached about them sponsoring the show, I thought, oh God, I don't. I don't know because the two natural deodorants I tried in the past, it did not work, and we're not kind to me, but especially people around me, but I thought, you know what? I will try it and it works. I loved the sense that they that they have. I love how they'd minimize the amount of plastic that you waste. There's nothing toxic can no aluminum, no parabens. There's a little a barley extract in there to to keep you dry. There's a central oils, it's they, they really thought this this through and it was in the garage for six hours. And when I came out of it, I smelt dare I say fresh. So check out my ro, it's well. First of all, you can get fifty percent off your first order. If you go today and that's just five bucks five bucks. So visit my my row dot com. Slash mental and use the promo code mental. That's my my row dot com slash mental, and that spelled m. y. m. y. r. o. dot com. Slash mental and use the promo code mental for fifty percent off your first order, which is just five bucks crazy. Oh, enough should also mentioned that it is. You can do. It isn't monthly subscription, which is so cool. So cool. They ship it right to your door. I every three months are. This is an awful sin moment filled out by bees are coming. And she writes, I'm moved out of my apartment this year to stay with my parents and moved to the apartment originally to get away from my parents. My mom is emotionally abusive and my dad tells tactless things. My dad, I think there's a typo here. My dad's says, tactless things in regard to my mental illness. The apartment seemed fine, but things quickly deteriorated when I got to know my neighbors, I'm a quiet person and fairly clean. I have severe social anxiety in a phobia and keep to myself. My neighbors moved in shortly after I did and promptly asked me if they could join my net flicks it counts so they could get their own. I was already sharing the account and I don't trust people. So I apologize told them they couldn't could for you by the way we later that asked if I wanted join them for a bonfire in the share yard, I lied that I would try to make it because I'm terrified to say no to people I hid in my apartment with the blinds closed while they proceeded with their bonfire that evening feeling like Kant. I've gone over these incidents with my friend and counselor and they say it's okay if I don't wanna share my Netflix account and if I don't wanna socialize still, I'm convinced they mess things up and instigated their behavior shortly after the bonfire the neighbors moved their garage been up onto the veranda beside my door. I had been at the end of the driveway. It had been at the end of the driveway. Previously. My dad's saw this and put it back in its original place, telling them not to put their garbage bin by my door, they then through litter all around the building. It's an old house converted into two apartment. It's which progressed them leaving bags of trash on the veranda a few feet away from my door. They would stomp and swear loud enough at it. Startled me and the husband or boyfriend effectively scared the shit out of me when out of the blue he stormed outside and began punching their front door while glaring at me through my window, they often leave various items at toy truck, full bottle, vinegar on the stairs leading up to the verandah which are in front of my door. On my way out of the apartment one day I saw a small paper Cup upside down on the top step. I kicked it aside, and there was a tiny dollop of poop underneath. You cannot make this shit up and I loved it. It was a dollop. I love the idea that somebody is menacing and dainty. Oh, yeah. He used to stab people, but when he did, he always extended his pinky. And then he bowed. Or maybe who knows maybe they're not Dany. Maybe he was constipated. You should just put a big. A big box of brand in front of his door. I'm assuming it's him when I was maybe it took. Thank you for that. This is a shame in secret survey, and this was filled out by woman who calls herself big hair Brown eyes. She's straight in her thirties, raised in a stable and safe environment. Well, see about that. Ever been the victim of sexual abuse? I was. Thirteen and someone possibly my grandfather entered the room and molested me that pretended I was asleep but was awake for the eternity. It felt like as soon as they left, I stayed up all night trying to convince myself that I enjoyed it or maybe it really didn't happen. She's been physically abused in a motion. Lee abused. I had several relationships when I was pushed, punch slapped kicked plenty of those relationships. I was manipulated into doing things. I didn't want to either it be physically or financially. My mother really emotionally abused me in a way that I constantly felt apart from my siblings. Wonder why she would say it was stable and safe environment. If you've been abused, are their positive experiences with the abusers. My mother and I now have a great relationship. I understand a lot of the shit. She was dealing with as as a very young mother in her own chaotic relationship with my father darkest thoughts. I regret being a mother. I really hate it. Thank you for saying that. Not that I'm happy that that you're regretting it, but because I know there are other parents out there who feel that and are ashamed to admit that they have that feeling. No one tells you that there's a culture of moms that you are now a part of. I'm now a stay at home mom that is anti-social by choice. I can't handle the pressure of judgment that could be given if your kid is having an asshole moment before I became a mother, I worked fulltime was very social. I was a makeup artist that made people feel good about themselves. Now I'm in a role where I have an endless amount of patients. I have to have an endless amount of patients keep a clean home, make meals, ninety percent of the month. I just got no k with myself before I made the choice to get pregnant darkest secrets in my late twenties in a two month up. I guess that must be a term like a wonder if that means like mania I drank away. My paychecks was very promiscuous. Sometimes offering my company for rent or spending money. Sexual fantasies most powerful to you? None. What if anything, do you wish for to be able to afford mental health care? It is really one of the biggest outrages in our society. In this quote, unquote greatest nation on earth. The people can't afford decent medical healthcare. We can. We can bomb around the world. Give tax breaks to. Billionaires and corporations, and I understand there are economic necessities and realities, but come on. Have you shared these things with others? I series of talks with my mother over the years that helped me get over our past. It went well. I'm able to see her as just a young woman and an awful situation, and the way she dealt with it wasn't always the best. And then after writing all this down, she feels sad. Well, I. From what I've read, who wouldn't who wouldn't feel that way. And. It's so good that you've been able to reconnect with your mom and that was reading this. I was thinking it would be so great if they had support groups for mothers with, they could get together and take the mask off and get real, what they're feeling, what they're experiencing, their insecurities, their fear of judgments. Maybe one exists. But thank you for sharing that. This is an awful moment filled out by white rabbit. And she writes, my husband and I were recently surprised to find out I'm pregnant. My husband is an only child and we both knew his mother would be ecstatic to hear the news. She is quite an alternative alternate kind of lady in every sense of the world. No one's matter with my mouth today. She's anti vaccine into natural remedies cleans rooms by blowing into shell horns and enjoy spending her holidays visiting a guru in India. She had several miscarriages after my husband was born and has remained deeply traumatized by them, returned up at her house with cake and flowers to tell her our news, she cried with joy and said, she quote already knew because of a vision she had while meditating after collecting herself. She sat down at the kitchen table and said, is it okay if I smoke quickly lighting her cigarette, taking it deep relaxing, draw, and blowing the smoke across the table at us. My dad was thank you for that. By the way, my dad was the most clueless smoker he would. He and I. Worked if the same insurance company for a couple of years, and we would take the train train home together, and he would stand at the train doors and it was a packed rush-hour train. As soon as the doors would open, he would take one step onto the platform. Didn't wasn't even aware that other people were having to squeeze around him to get past him and he would immediately light his cigarette. And then the the whole line of people would back up to where the turnstiles were. And so you would be just like sardines, and he would be smoking his cigarette. Absolutely unaware of all the smoke going in people's faces six inches from his and they would like turn around and look at him like. Buddy what the Faulk and I just I just remember. Marveling it. How. Out of touch somebody could be with what was going on around them it. Sadly, I have inherited a little bit of that from him. This is an awful solemn moment filled out by Liz, and she writes last year I entered my first relationship with someone. I had met at a friend's wedding. When I say my first relationship, I really do mean my first relationship. I'd gone twenty seven years without so much as holding hands with someone of the opposite sex. Obviously, I'd never been kissed and I certainly never had sex. I was and still am extremely self conscious about it. I'm hyper aware that my v card at a much later expiration date the most I informed my partner that I was at virgin on our third or fourth day to give him a chance to escape. But he thankfully was very understanding and non-judgmental insured me that we could go at my pace. Maybe it's just me, but I have never had a male friend say to me, I really like her, but she's virgin. Never never heard that. I've heard guys brag. The time eventually came for us to give sex. Try before we went out to dinner. One night, we went to his room. We started fooling around a bit and things progressed naturally, I was extremely nervous. What would this feel like will it hurt? Will this change me somehow? What if I do something wrong? Where on earth do I put my hands? Love that question. My anxiety only increased his time went by and he continued to struggle to push into my body. It was like he was colliding with a brick wall. Needless to say, the attempt was ultimately unsuccessful, and we decided to throw in the towel and head out to make our dinner reservation ashamed, self-conscious feeling like a total sexual letdown. I stood up from the bed and embraced my boyfriend. I suddenly felt something dripping down my leg is that you? I asked perplexed, then we look to see blood streaming down my legs pooling on his floor, his bed. And into the dress pants and socks around my ankles. I wanted to evaporate. I was mortified convinced that he would go running for the hills and wouldn't want to ever see me again. But to my astonishment, he didn't freak out. He calmly helped clean up and get the blood out of my close. Hugh shared me that everything was okay as I stood in his shower repeatedly apologizing and telling him how embarrassed I was. We went to dinner, albeit a bit late for our reservation with me in my horribly uncomfortable wet, and thankfully, dark gray pants as horrifying. This experience was, I knew that I had found someone truly special that night. He is so understanding has been extremely patient and supportive of me as I worked towards recovery from anxiety, OCD depression and anorexia. I'm so grateful to have met someone who accepts me as I am. I never thought that that would happen for me. Before I met him, I had all resigned myself to the fact that I would be alone forever and no one would ever deal with me and all my problems. But now I'm learning that that's not true when I can be loved flaws and all PS. I am happy report that we now have a very healthy sex life and often look back on this experience and laugh. And then p. s. s. thank you so much for the podcast. Paul friend of mine at my eating disorder treatment facility recommended it to me, and I'm so glad she did. We love you. I've got my boyfriend hoped his. Well, I hope you realize how important your work is and what a great impact you have. Thank you for saying that, and thank you for your beautiful survey. It's, I don't think we see enough. Examples of men like your boyfriend. Not that they don't exist, but. You know, I think I think a lot of times both genders and gender fluid people, all people we, we tend to just hear the horror stories about dating. And a lot of times we don't. We don't hear stories of the support and the understanding and the compassion and the patients. This isn't happy moment filled out by a girl. You can take home to mother and she writes realizing that for the last few months, I've been living a tranquil contented life without constantly comparing every second of happiness to the hell that came before for me. Recovery was not the sigh of relief that came after years of uncontrollable anxiety and depression. Because for months, after I got a handle on those issues, I still kept grasping for every moment of joy. I could find in a desperate kind of way I think to make up for all. Then I'd fail to appreciate about my life before I've been hung. -gree for even a tiny bit of peace and had Sast over at once. I found it, no, that was not recovery, but going for months without dwelling on my previous struggles with mental illness and just so king up the good things, my life without another thought that's recovery. Thank you for that. And I love first of all, I love this survey because it's such a great example of all the nuanced progressions in recovery. And I would say that actually, that is part of the recruit, the recovery, the soaking it up. You know, the feeling like we're making up for lost time, but I understand what you're saying that it's that it's not the that it doesn't end there and and you turn the light bulb on in my head because I think I still do that a lot and worry. Oh, when's the Wednesday? Depression, gonna come back or. Just go into kind of meta self obsession. Is a babysitter survey filled out by woman who calls herself fragmented heart, and she writes. I was thirteen years old when my younger sister and I were babysat by a couple, a woman with young children and her boyfriend who was maybe in his forties. They lived in a tiny beat up shack, and I was sleeping on the floor next to the bed, which doubled as their living room couch. I almost convinced myself he hadn't touched me but cannot get the sensation of waking up to the vigorous, rubbing of my pubic mound out of my head and is utterly cowardly footsteps as he panic and scampered away to the bed. Just a few feet away. I'll never forget that. I almost convinced myself that it hadn't happened. I was in so much shock, but it did happen. I was asleep. He knew it was wrong. The fucking bastard. I woke my younger sister and walked her all the way back to our house in the wee hours of the morning before anyone else woke up later on, I learned that he was also molesting his girlfriend's children there. Mother burst into our house weeks or months later bawling, her eyes outweighing about how her boyfriend had molested her kids. I can't imagine the levels of heartbreaking guilt. She must have felt must still feel, and by the way thank God. She believed them. I read so many of these fucking surveys where the parent denies it. And many people say that that is even more traumatizing to them than the original event. I grew up in a tiny isolated Alaskan village that cannot be reached by road only vote or airplane. Christian missionaries dumped their pedophile in remote Alaskan villages as a way of dot dot. Safeguarding them question Mark, protecting them. Question Mark. How fucking ironic as much as I hate my sexual abuser, I cannot help, but think that somehow he must have been abused as well. And yet the hate remains. Multiple levels of it unquenchable. I just fucking dare someone to blame the native Alaskan population for their fucking problems. I fucking dare them. I am so fucking sick and tired of being MS. Nice girl who understates everything that has ever happened in her life and the lives of everyone around her avoiding conflict and pretending it never really happened. I can only be so compassionate and forgiving and understanding, and I'm at my fucking which end with this shit trying not to become a bitter shell of a human being has been monumentally hard. To this day. My parents don't know why we showed up at home without warning anybody. I've told my boyfriend and my therapist about what happened. I absolutely do not think what happened was normal and the damage was and is incredible. Remembering these events. What feelings come up anger at the nearly impossible history of intergenerational abuse in trauma frustration with all the ignorance surrounding the nature of addiction trauma and dysfunction in marginalized communities, shame because I grew up basically wanting to relive this scenario in my fantasies. I know it's very common as way of trying to reclaim agency and power, but it's still difficult to get over the stigma hatred that any human being could. So callously throw entire communities to the mercy of child predators that people could blame victims for their dysfunction, uncertainty with how to possibly forgive and move forward with my life without hatred entering hindering it. I never want to become a parent. It's so hard to convince myself that this world is safe for children. Thank you so much for that. And. I can't even magin how complex and deep the feelings go of all of those overlapping things. And it sounds like you have a good intellectual grasp of everything that is going on with you right now. And in my experience. There is a lag between intellectuals understanding something, and it's soaking in emotionally and feeling ourselves change in the only way that I was able to. Let go of the anger. Actually not even let it go to have it. Seapower out with time being kind to myself cutting toxic people out of my life and connecting on a daily basis with people who deeply understand and support me that that was what helped Leach out the the rage and the sadness, and and I wish that for you and and wanna remind you that you are not invisible, and your story is important. And we hear your pain. And ending on a happy moment. This is a happy moment filled out by Maria, and she writes about four years ago. I started taking medication for my depression in the first couple of weeks were pretty tough. I talked to my father on the phone every day, and he was very supportive. Even though my parents often tell me cheer up in fight through it a bit too often. I lived with my best friend who was the one who told me to seek help in the first place. He let me completely occupy our living room for as much as I needed and did all he could to make the process as easy as possible. One night, I was really tired when we had a friend over for tea. I really wanted to spend time with my two friends, but I was too tired to contribute to the conversation. So after a while I just laid down on the kitchen floor next to them, they then went to the living room and picked pillows and blankets for me in came back with it all to tuck me in. So there I was struggling with this magic ation that would eventually help me recover tucked in with blankets and pillows on the kitchen floor by my two best friends who sat close by. So I could keep listening to their conversation while getting the rest I needed. That is. So awesome. And what a perfect. Perfect. Snapshot, given the subject matter of today and. Bookie listening to this. It was like, oh, man, can I do that at parties because I'm fucking exhausted at parties. Is there? Is there just like that feeling of a sleepover from childhood had just always loved that that feeling of just being a part of a group in your even naptime when you were a kid? Just, I don't know. Like puppies. The. Just part of a big warm group. So thank you for sharing that. And once again, remember that that phone number that we talked about the suicide hotline number is one eight hundred two, seven, three talk. That's one eight hundred two, seven, three talk and. I'm going to play the aforementioned. Audio from when I was in Croatia and its of Serey trying to navigate the Croatian named streets, and it made me laugh. So I put a little compilation of of that together. And if you're out there, you're struggling. Just never forget that you are not alone, and thanks for listening. Kitchen straight to leave on a random. The roundabout tick the fourth exit, stay on thirty. Turn left on erotica then turn right onto that. You will. That you will look at the roundabout. Take third exit onto you, the comedic fringe, a glove in a. Southeast needling Kosei chips in Radic at torture to it said. Meters at the roundabout. Take third exit. Your destination would be out in the way. Everybody I know is bizarrely beautiful. Everybody, beautifully. Fucked up in some weird way. Beautifully.

Ita Shen American Foundation DBT medical officer Donna sulk mood disorder Jared Minneapolis Croatia Australia depression Dr Christine Sydney Harbour Bridge Paul Sydney Sharon Skopje Boston Syphis head officer medical officer
Indian Prime Minister Lays Cornerstone For Controversial Hindu Temple

NPR's World Story of the Day

03:50 min | 6 months ago

Indian Prime Minister Lays Cornerstone For Controversial Hindu Temple

"India's prime minister made a rare pandemic era trip out of the capital. Today he went to a northern Indian town called Iot. Ah It's where Hindu extremists tore down a sixteen th century mosque nearly thirty years ago now. Hindus are building their own temple on that very spot and the prime minister laid the cornerstone NPR's India correspondent Lorne Fair housing from iota in the past and his following the news there today and joins us now. Hi, Laurin. Hi, good morning. Good Morning. So can you just put what happened today in the context of this place in its history? Yeah. So I not as old quarter is. This beautiful Warren of multicolored alleyways, housing, small temples, and Hindu faithful believe one of their gods Rahm was born there. But actually it's one of the most sensitive places in all of India for hindu-muslim tensions and that's because there used to be this huge triple domed mosque right in the middle of town it was built in the sixteenth century but in one, thousand, nine, hundred, ninety, two, Hindu extremists, tore it down riots spread across India and thousands of mostly Muslims were killed. He knew nationalists have long wanted to build a temple on those ruins and today they started doing it. Here's what it sounds like you're today. mutt visitor Hindu priests, chanting prayers as the Prime Minister Narendra. Modi wearing a surgical mask inaugurated construction of this temple saying Hindus have waited centuries for this. I mean note he's wearing a mask where we are in the middle of global pandemic, right? Why did not prioritize this right now we certainly are well, mody is a Hindu nationalist, and this was actually one of his big campaign promises many members of his base have been waiting nearly thirty years for this. Especially devotees of the Hindu God Lord Rom Rama. As he sometimes called Souhag, Shukla is the executive director of the Hindu American Foundation. She's been watching all of this from. Philadelphia Lord, Rama, Klay. So centrally to Hindu beliefs and practices. So there are millions of Hindus who will be celebrating as a day of closure, and maybe the start of healing part of the reason this is such. A long time is that the actual land under the mosques ruins have been tied up in a big legal battle in late last year India's Supreme Court gave Hindus, control of that land. So that's what allowed the construction to begin today, but if to say certainly not. Be One. Sees this as closure and healing right? Not everyone sees it as healing. Presumably, you're talking about the families of the Muslims. who were killed there I mean, how are they reacting to this? That's right well, and also secularist I mean India's constitution defines the country as a secular republic. There are people who think the prime minister shouldn't be involved in religious matters but India has really changed unchanged under Narendra. Modi do priests hold prestigious jobs in his government and also Muslims. As you mentioned one prominent Muslim group called today's events unjust and oppressive India has two hundred million Muslims Rana. Youtube is one of them. She was nine years old when the Babri mosque was destroyed and riot spread across India she had to go into hiding. The Road Iota means fill in imitation taking our agency away from US making us somebody who did not have equal rights or our country. And so today is also pub painful for Muslims because it's the anniversary of a crackdown in Kashmir India's only Muslim-majority State. It's been one year since India revoked Kashmir's autonomy flooded the streets with troops and cut off the Internet there. NPR's India correspondent Lauren Freyre with this story. Thanks for bringing it to US learn. You're welcome.

India prime minister Prime Minister Narendra Lord Rom Rama Modi NPR the Hindu American Foundation US Iot Lorne Fair Laurin mody Youtube Shukla Lauren Freyre Supreme Court Philadelphia Kashmir executive director
ABC News Chief Medical Correspondent Shares Her Story Of 'Life After Suicide'

On Point with Tom Ashbrook | Podcasts

47:52 min | 1 year ago

ABC News Chief Medical Correspondent Shares Her Story Of 'Life After Suicide'

"This message comes from on point sponsor, indeed if you're hiring with indeed you can post a job in minutes set up screener questions than zero in on your shortlist of qualified candidates using an online dashboard get started at indeed dot com slash NPR podcast. From NPR and WVU are Boston. I'm David Folkenflik. And this is on point today's show me not prove suitable for all listeners death by suicide is increasingly a leading cause of death in the United States, a tough topic. And yet we intend this hour to offer valuable, insight and resources and even hope itself to people were hurting badly in February twenty seventeen Jennifer Ashton's husband of twenty two years took his own life by jumping off the George Washington Bridge. They divorced two weeks before shock was followed by unimaginable grief and yet along with her children Ashton has found her way toward experiencing joy in human connection. This hour on point ABC news chief medical correspondent, Jennifer Ashton on life after suicide will offer a few resources throughout the hour. And we'll have more on our website, which we welcome you to visit on point radio dot org. If you or someone, you know, maybe considering taking his or her life, so please contact in that case that the national suicide prevention lifeline at. Eight hundred two seven three eight two five or the crisis text line by texting seven four one seven four one. And we welcome you to join us. What questions do you have a processing the shock grief and anger after loved one suicide have you coped with the tragedy of losing a friend or family member joins us anytime it on point radio dot org or on Twitter and Facebook ad on radio. Join me here in studio in New York City is Dr Jennifer Ashton. She is ABC news chief medical correspondent also a board certified OBGYN her new book is called life after suicide finding courage comfort and community after thinkable loss. She also has an eight part series podcast entitled life after suicide. Jennifer welcomed on point. Thank you so much for having me, David. So you know, as tough as this is walk us a little bit through this. What let what was your life like up to the point at which your your longtime? Husband husband, rub took his life. Well, working backwards from February of twenty seventeen David. Had actually done. I was thinking a pretty good job of kind of the optics of perfection and not optics to the external world, but optics for myself, really, it was a coping mechanism that I had developed after my parents, divorced when I was pretty young when I was five years old, and I learned after now a lot of therapy that that coping mechanism of Uber achieving and setting a bar high for myself, and and achieving all of these measures of success in my mind was away to keep my father's love. This was all response to my parents divorce. So that was kind of in my inner psyche. And so it's how you were built exactly it's a theme in your book. The idea of perfection. I've got this. Not only do I have this down. I've got it nailed exactly. And that's really important. In the post suicide Jennifer Ashton because as I think we'll talk about and as you see in the book, it's hard to heal and recover from something that shatters you to your core. If you're optics of perfection are still kind of driving that that train. So, you know, but even the divorce I had said, okay, our marriage ended. So sixty percent of other marriages, I wanna do divorce better than anyone has ever done divorce and Robin. I were proud of having what we called any Volve divorce. No, no screaming. No ugliness. No, you know, visceral each other. And I thought we were in the clear, and then eighteen days later he killed himself, which which must have been absolutely staggering. He did it in a way that was also hard for you to avoid. You know? And it was something where where you had to think about both what he had done that is off the bridge, which is near your place in New Jersey. But also that he did it it seemed as though in reading your book is though it exemplified. He did it under your is. That is that this was playing out you hadn't perceived that this was likely to happen, right? Even though you're you're not a psychiatrist, but you're kind of Jason to that deal with people you deal with symptoms. You deal with signs you didn't detect any of that. Now. I mean, you know, in medical school, whatever your specialty is we're all taught the signs of major depression, and rob had none of them zero not a single one. Even when we were going through couple's therapy before our divorce, our therapist asked both of us, if we would ever or could imagine ever having suicidal thoughts, and we both said emphatically, no and Robin. I were texting the day before he died. We had seen each other three days before at our. Daughters ice hockey game. And so not only did it come out of the blue. But you're right. It was it was right in front of us. Literally. I was driving over the George Washington Bridge less than twenty minutes before he jumped off of it. And I think that there are kind of pros and cons to that. Actually. I mean as as in our face as it was the method that he chose there. I think there were also some considerations to us in that in that he would have never chosen away that would have led to me or my children having to find him. So you know, kind of six to one half dozen to the other. So how did you process you describing book sort of people waves of people coming over to your house? But, but how did you actually in your mind in your heart processes, I? Couldn't really I mean, I think that you know, anyone who's gone through a sudden trauma like this. You know, it becomes almost Hollywood. Like, you know, the knock on the door the detectives coming into my apartment hearing those words, and then everything kind of going black, and and shattering and collapsing to my knees. You know, I mean, many many many people have gone through. Unfortunately, something like that. I think I processed it in waves. You know and stages initially, I would say for at least two weeks. There was true psychological shock, which also had physiologic manifestations, which as a medical doctor. I had never experienced, and I didn't even really know existed. So not being able to sleep more than two hours at a time even with medication losing nine pounds in less than two weeks feeling physical pain. Rain and looking for bruises even though there were none. I mean, all of those were kind of the first stage, and then it kind of went into another stage and another stage, and it's still ongoing, and you talk about this dealing with this for yourself dealing with this through therapy, dealing this with your children who were I think seventeen eighteen at the time this happened xactly, and how hard that was for you trying to work with them and same time, really processing and not processing this yourself. Yeah. I mean, I think that any parent, but especially mothers, there's a maternal instinct that I really do believe is hardwired and kicks in in situations of trauma like this where you're only focus is protecting your children. And so I had already kind of collapsed, psychologically and physically with the realization that I was not able to protect them from. Pain right because they had just lost their father. But then my focus. My sole focus became not de compensating in front of them. So that they would think now they've lost both parents. And that means physically as well as psychologically, you should compensating. What do you mean? I mean, you know, physically. I mean when I realized that I was literally wasting away. I thought it scared me as as a doctor as a medical doctor. It scared me because I thought way I am not in control of this. If I become hospitalized how much worse is that going to be for my children? Exactly. And then emotionally I thought they can't see their mother hysterically crying when they're going through what they're going through. So those two objectives really stayed kind of in the front of my my mind, immediately and still do you know, what's striking to me in reading your? The degree to which your kids are pillars of strength for you. And we're unbelievably thoughtful about your well being and at same time your desperation to figure out a way to kind of minimize. They're having handle your grief, and your confusion and your struggles throughout does you have as I mentioned earlier podcast also titled life after suicide, and it you it seems as though you're interviewing a lot of key players in in your life since that time one of them khloe Ashton, you're nineteen now nineteen year old daughter in a conversation with you for life after suicide podcast khloe explains. How sheep processes rub suicide the first place. My mind went was why would he do this to me? It's a choice. And I think that a lot of people who go through this experience have that initial thought that this is a choice. This is something that he chose to do. And it really wasn't until the following day. When we the three of us went to sue. Where are therapist Semmering where she started explaining kind of even in the state that we were in that this is not a choice. This is mental illness. There's it's a very complex issue securing their from your daughter kind of learn through this as well. There's. A special bond right between a lot of fathers lot of daughters. Rob sound like he although very successful physician himself right surgeon is the Rasic search here in New York. That he really took a lot of time. She was going to boarding school down in Central Jersey. He made sure to go down there to your hockey games spent time with her there was this thing there that you know, you know, that you can't replace and that you also know that you can't resolve, you know, she khloe says, it's a very complex issue. And as true as that as soon that's desperately unsatisfying. Right. There's no single thing. It was like oh my God. I found this fortune cookie. And it tells me everything I need to know rain. Well, absolutely, David. And I think that my children who are incredibly compassionate and sensitive with a very high emotional IQ before this happened. They I think the biggest reason that they don't have a lot of anger at all towards. The world towards me towards their father is because of a the fact that they've had professional therapy. And be because they understand that it is an illness. No different than cancer heart disease. We're discussing the rising suicide rate in the United States and the process of living with the grief loss to suicide. We're s- Cussing it in sort of we will be discussing Broadway. We're also discussing it in a very human way with Dr Jennifer Ashton and her own loss. You can join our conversation. How have you been left, and how have you experienced the loss of a loved one who died by suicide? What helped you cope? What set you back? I'm David Folkenflik in. This is on point. The fact that in two thousand and nineteen we're having this debate about measles vaccine makes my head want to explode, which is tennis strange really strange place in the only people speaking up. The parents endless thread, the podcast from WBZ are Boston's NPR station and read it brings you a special series on the history of vaccines in antibac- Sers. Subscribe on apple podcasts or wherever you listen. Ten or twelve minutes. That's all we need to get. You started every morning. The biggest news stories from politics to pop culture with the analysis. You need to understand. What's happening? Listen to up first, weekdays from NPR news. This is on point. I'm David Folkenflik. We're discussing painful, but important topic suicide how the suicide rate is rising this country out affects those who are left behind as well, you can join our conversation. What questions do you have about how to detect warning signs and others or yourselves? How much do you sense? That society stigma against suicide has abated follow us on Twitter and find us on Facebook at on point radio with me is Dr Jennifer Ashton. She's ABC news chief medical correspondent and a board certified OBGYN her new book life after suicide finding comfort critic sees me finding courage comfort and community after unthinkable loss. You can read an excerpt at our website on point radio dot org, and you can also find resources there on our website. Should you be concerned about yourself? Or loved ones as well. I wanna take a few calls people are lining up to to weigh in on this with their own circumstances. Elaine is calling from Omaha Nebraska. Thanks for calling the land. This program. David my story of very similar. My husband went to school psychologist and marriage counselor and suddenly in two thousand three he just announced me one day that he was walking away from our relationship, which is a twenty one year marriage. So of course, I was gifts stated, and he moved out of our house just before Christmas. And then at the end of the school year, he moved to another state and with another woman, but only about six weeks after that he called and said he was societal and couldn't live there and wanted to come home. So of course, I welcome to them that I never lived into league. And but I tell that he was very confused and couldn't think his way out of paper bag. So I urge them to go the very next day soon as he got back to Omaha to a doctor are to a mental health center, which he did and he was diagnosed with bipolar disorder. So that made everything clear and understandable because Paul. This behavior had been so atypical of him. He was very positive outgoing loving person loved his job with approaching return with friends and interests. And so just in like two thousand seven he announced that he was going to go off his medication 'cause he said his new doctor had told him he'd been tapped bipolar disorder in a big him not to do that. Because you know, we knew that Satistics about the high sued by great among by colored people, but he went off anyway and that same year two thousand seven they never divorced. But we remain very good friends and then in two thousand eight he attempted suicide by monop- monoxide poisoning in our garage, which I didn't know about because it didn't work and by the time, I got home he had called a friend and gone to the hospital but about so I went to see him. And he said, I don't want to live even five minutes more. That's the first thing that he said, so I totally understood have disc. He was and how hopeless he felt and I tried to be a lifeline to him. You know by calling him every day and. And then you have ice cream Monday and within about two days after that he jumped from a bridge near a home. So so the ironic thing to me is that he and I were both, you know, psychologists, and we have a lot of friends who are therapists and social workers, and he was seeing a therapist. But he never told me what that was about. And none of us picks, maybe his therapist. I don't know knew that this was coming. We didn't see signs he didn't have difficult signs of depression. And so I guess my question for anybody who knows out there is how can we be more perceptive with those people who show, no obvious signs of depression? And you know, try to get them help before it's too late. Thank you question. Maybe this would be a good time to bring in our second guest. We have with us on the line from Austin, Texas. Dr Charles never off he's professor site. Kyw tree at the university of Texas board member of the American Foundation for suicide prevention, Dr number thanks for joining us so much. Hi, david. It's a pleasure. And I just want to give Dr Ashton shout out because what she's doing is so important for people who out there who are suffering in the way, she suffered and worth noting as well. Duck Nimr off also a board member at the American Foundation for suicide prevention, what would you say to Elaine who called in with story herself, a colleague of yours in a sense a psychiatrist it sounds like a she and her husband were both. How would you answer on that? Well, I I think somewhat different from the story that Jennifer described is the caller described her husband having been diagnosed with bipolar disorder, which has a very high rate of suicide -ality, and he had many of the risk factors that we'd look at which which didn't. Sound to be the case what Dr Ashton was speaking of namely, he had a psychiatric diagnosis of severe mental illness. He was taking medication. He was a male and men are much more likely to commit suicide than women and stopping ones medication is often a prelude to one of these terrible events. Jennifer. What would you say to somebody this call who might be thinking about how does she, you know? She's clearly saying I didn't see the signs, right? And you talk in your book a little bit about what it is not to see the signs or think that you should have seen the signs, right? I think that's the analogy that I was thinking of as I was listening to Elaine, tell her story, and I'm so sorry, Elaine for your laws is that two things number one. That's like asking a medical doctor, you know, about someone who's just been diagnosed with terminal cancer. You know, how could we have prevented this and sometimes in medicine as much as we know today, we still don't know a lot. So unfortunately, the answer in medicine and science a lot of times is still we don't know where we were not sure we can prevent this. But my book because I'm not a mental health professional as you've said. Said is about the people who are left in the wake of this, which when you look at the numbers, they are so staggering. It's forty seven thousand deaths by suicide in the country in two thousand seventeen and it's estimated that for every death by suicide there are one hundred and thirty five people directly affected like Elaine like me, like my children that translates to over six million people a year. And so it's for those people that I wanted to share my story and the stories of other survivors, so that blame and guilt. Like, we heard from the caller don't create a secondary tragedy in the wake of something. That's already tragic. Go ahead. The first point about the the magnitude of this epidemic. We we know in here a lot about the opiate epidemic. We now know that a twenty to twenty five thousand of those deaths are also suicides. So if you add those twenty to twenty five thousand to the nearly fifty thousand suicides we're going to have this year. We're talking about seventy five thousand jobs, and if you think about this, there's so many more suicides homicides. The it's just a staggering number eight Charles. I wanted to ask you about that because in sort of looking through some of the literature in this. I wasn't sure whether it was fair to call this a crisis or an epidemic. A couple of statistics. We pulled from the sea the centers for disease control. Among others said latest numbers showed suicide is the tenth leading cause of death in the US for all ages about one hundred and twenty three Americans die by suicide every day. It takes the lives of roughly forty five thousand Americans every year and the rate has gone up. I looked from two thousand one two thousand fifteen at gone up. I think about thirty percent if you take the population in aggregate, obviously, there's some breakdown ages certain kinds of demographics. We can talk about that later. But. You use the word epidemic. Why did you select that characterization Charles? Well, I think you know, by and large the the numbers are staggering and the demographics have changed during the years that you described so in two thousand the vast majority suicides were elderly men, seventy years of age and older. That's completely changed in twenty seventeen through a dramatic increase in the fifteen to thirty four age group making its second of the second leading cause of death in that age group in the United States and more remarkably the twenty four to sixty four year old age group, it's the fourth leading cause of death. In fact, of the top ten causes the death in the United States suicides. The only one that increasing all the others heart disease cancer, stroke, diabetes or decreasing so that's an epidemic. And also the context of that medically is even more staggering, which is that if you add the opioid deaths that Dr number of is just talking about even even if you don't by the way, fifty to seventy thousand deaths by suicide is more people than die of breast cancer and more people that died of aids at the peak of the HIV aids epidemic at the peak. So I mean. The other thing I'd mention that. No one ever talks about is. They're five hundred thousand suicide attempts that get to the emergency room every year in the United States. And at the medicine, basically, making sure that those don't become a different kind of statistic. Exactly, I wanna take a caller to more now. Irene is calling from Richmond Virginia arena. Thank you for calling in. Hi there. Thank you so much for taking my call. I just wanted to say how much I appreciate this conversation surrounding suicide. I think the more that we can talk about it, especially your medical freezing. And framing, you know, putting attention to the fact that we don't blame someone for you know, being diagnosed with cancer and yet with someone with mental illness. Sometimes there's a lot of question of blaming. I could really relate to your daughter's comment about you know, feeling it. I like it was a choice that someone has made my father committed suicide when I was twelve years old, and he was I think forty one at the time this was in two thousand and he had been diagnosed bipolar. He had been on and off of medication in an out of counseling and treatment. And I as an added situation that he was kind of dealing with. He was secretly gay. And so he and my mother were. Living in this situation. I think he felt like he was going to lose, you know, everything that that he had his friends has data's you know, he'd come from a community where that was not accepted and two thousand wasn't that long ago. But it was just long enough ago that even at that time you felt like he wasn't able to come out and and fully be himself at that time. I think there was still a lot of for him personally. Shame surrounding the idea of being open about mental illness. And I think the idea about being open about LGBT to so I guess I just was calling into. Thank you so much for the the conversation. And and yeah, and I guess my thought was about the shame surrounding mental illness, and how can we open up that conversation? An and people who are suffering from, you know, different communities, whether it be a someone who's diagnosed with, you know, chronic depression or bipolar disorder someone who's suffering from a traumatic experience living through trauma. You know, someone coming from an LGBTQ community. The fact that this. Covers lots of different people from lots of different communities. Thank you for that. Irene I appreciate it. Jennifer, fresh, you wrote in your book about not necessarily even understanding that you needed this. But about what became a reliance in need for support systems that emerged for you. People showed up some people didn't show up. Right. What what worked for you? What alternately helped sustain you? When you were in a situation, not the same as Irene's, but you know, experiencing staggering loss like this. Well, I think for for me, and and also for my children, you know, this tragedy really shows you who your true friends. Are it shows you the best of people and the worst of people what worked for us really was pretty simple. You know, it was people just being there. Whether it was directly next to us or sending texts without expec. Getting a response back. What worked is the understanding that people have that, you know, this was a major trauma that we all went through and that like any trauma, it can have ripple effects that pop up unexpectedly, you know, even in the most unexpected times and situations. What doesn't work is people thinking that just because we've passed the one year Mark were quote, unquote, fine. What doesn't work is people expressing their anger towards rob which we have consciously and subconsciously made a commitment to not play because it's not productive. And again, we didn't wanna make it into a secondary tragedy in even though is a very common natural response to this. We all feel and believe that it's so destruc-. Give to us and that an an ultimately disrespectful to Rob's memory. But it would seem to be also as that there'd be a moment or way in which even if people were processing their own anger, friends or relatives room ever. You're like I got a lot of my plate. Now, I can't privilege your feelings about this to mine, even as I recognize you may legitimately have feelings. Exactly. And I think that what we learned from therapy. And I and I put a lot of this all of it in the book is that the grief and the trauma that comes after losing a loved one to suicide is different than grief from any other kind of death and that needs to be taken into account by the people in our inner circle. And so the people who've been helpful to us have taken that into account. I wanted to let you do a reading from your book the first reading I pulled out for you. Speaking of plates, you talked about after the death of your ex-husband, rob a course of. Healing introspection. And you feel like it sounded like you were trying to get at the full range of motions, you're experiencing go. Go ahead, Jennifer. Yeah. This was a major kind of Piff Unie for me. Let's say you break a plate not that I've ever done such a thing. But I have heard that it has been known to happen. You need that plate, and you have no choice, but to glue it back together, but there's a part of the pattern that you've never really liked. So you decide maybe this is a great time to just get rid of that part while you can try obviously, though if you leave out that part, you don't like you're never going to end up with a whole plate and anything less than a whole plate is really as useless as no played at all. I can easily picture that. And it makes sense to me. I've still definitely got work to do on my personal version of reconstructing myself. But I'm getting there flaws, and all and I'm very very aware that I'm not who I used to be. So I I kind of described this plate analogy as the plate is now. Glued together. Not. So pretty imperfect looking but it's intact. So we're gonna take some calls when we come back from this break, but very briefly in the time we have left in this segment. What would you say to others who are trying to put put lives back together in that way, that you have to embrace all the imperfections and all the flaws and in doing so it doesn't make you weak and actually can make you stronger, we're discussing the increasing rate of suicide the United States the care available to family and friends of those who have taken their own lives. You can join the conversation. What questions do you have for my guests? How you've been able to comfort her aid someone who has lost someone else to suicide, and we'll talk a little bit about popular culture. Netflixing popular show thirteen reasons why a plotline about teenage suicide gimmicks are debating it's effect on teenagers and suicide risk. I'm David Folkenflik in. This is on point. Long term is it better to invest in the stock market or in real estate properties, m I considered under employed because I'm paid for less than forty hours or is full time. More of a feeling I'm caught of course, she co host of planet. Money's the indicator where we answer these great questions from you our listeners every day in less than ten minutes. This is on point. I'm NPR media. Correspondent David Folkenflik. We're discussing the unsettling rise in suicides the United States. What is being done to address it and how it affects people in their own lives. You can join the conversation. What questions do you have about suicide? We can talk about how to detect concerns or signs of them of it in yourself and others what to do about it. Follow us on Twitter. Find us on Facebook at on point radio dot org. And I won a point out that not only do we have an excerpt of the book of Dr Jennifer Ashton, which is called life after suicide finding courage comfort and community after thinkable loss, but we also have resources there. From people who who have for people have such concerns with me as I mentioned in studio is Dr Jennifer Ashton, author of that book also with me on the line from Austin, Texas. It's Dr Charles number off a psychiatrist and professor at the university of Texas del medical school and a board member of the American Foundation for suicide prevention, I wanna take some of your calls to kick off this segment. However want to take call I from Sarasota, Florida. Megan go ahead. Hi, I'm so glad that I'm able to listen to this program. Believe it or not thanks to my mother who gave me a call from her car and said, I should be should be listening. What are the things that? I so my fiance and committed had or should say we we started saying it was taken with suicide in October on and I was here. And one of the things that we have here is is called survivors of suicide. It's a group that meets twice every month. And is extremely helpful. Because one thing that that we're all dealing with. And perhaps you'll have spoken about this is that it's not a traditional death. And I know that you just said that, but it it is traumatic death. In other words, many of us either found the body or were there. And so we're not just dealing with the loss, but we're dealing with the trauma and trying to speak. With anyone who has not experienced anything like that. It is just so different that we don't know quite how how to talk with anyone so meeting with others who have gone through that same trauma and just trying to process has been extremely helpful. At least for me because it really was. It was like a bomb went off in my life. There's just frag everywhere. And and and just trying in this was only six. This sounds like it was incredibly constructive for you. Megan and very constructive for me because I have been able to, you know, process out loud with some others, we've gone through the same thing and going through the same emotion. So, you know, I I I would encourage anyone else in any other city that if they've gone through something like this to try to find its, you know, because it's not just wives and husbands in grief. You know, 'cause they're all those types of groups with hospice it cetera. But an actual survivor that suicide type of group is really helpful for your incite for sharing experience. We of course, so sorry to hear of what what happened. We've also got a call from Portland. Maine Steve is calling. Go ahead. Steve. Yes. I and thanks for taking the call and appreciate this conversation, which is really important. I just wanted to share some of what helped me survive, and that was advice from a counselor. Some people probably like me grow up in religious tradition. You know, where it's considered a mortal sin, if somebody takes their life, and and also is seen as a choice, and I talked to a very wise counselor who have made it clear to me that God was really grieving. And you know from that perspective. It was very helpful. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that and for sharing that sense of community with others and one call it's well from what KOTA South Dakota, Sarah, go ahead ah show. You your questions for our guests? Hi, thanks for taking my call June twenty-seventh of twenty seventeen my daughter committed suicide, and it's still hard for me to wrap my head around that it's coming into two years. I live very rurally in rural South Dakota. I was here and she was living in Florida. She's twenty nine and I still I don't have a support system here. I don't I don't know how to heal myself because I don't I just don't there's nothing here for me. My husband, and I obviously are devastated. And he's not a very good communicator. Sometimes so I cry a lot I walk with my dogs, and I talked to her, and I just cry all the time, and it's almost two years. I don't I don't know. No. If I'm doing something wrong. I'm not angry with her. I understand and I should've seen. I should have seen the writing on the wall. I should have been more what's on cert- with syrup. Why don't you stay on the line for moment? Let's turn the Charles never off. Who is a psychiatrist to talks about these things? You know, I think is mentioned in Jennifer's book, Dr Jennifer Ashton book about her own experience that, you know, people think well, you get through the year, like even just mentioned a moment ago. Jennifer that that you know that that you're fine. And actually there's this realization that it's not fine. Charles numberof. What kinds of advice would you offer somewhat, sir? Like, Sarah who's gone through. I guess almost two years now and who's trying to figure out how to move forward and who's still in the sense of shock. So sure I my heart goes out to you of taking care of many patients and have lost him to suicide, and I've counseled many many individuals who. Con through this loss. I I would recommend that you get in touch get online. Look at the American Foundation for suicide prevention af SP dot org where the exile and depression association of America, they can put you in touch with resources. Yes. Even at South Dakota. And we have chapters there where you could deal with the issue a little better by being embraced by survivors a bit like the previous caller talked about. But there is a help for you. I also wanted to make a point that Jennifer made, and I want to highlight it, and that is people commit suicide are in so much psychic pain that they're hurting so badly that life becomes agony, and they're both helpless hopeless. No, many could be helped if they receive treatment. And and there's a lot of obstacle as you all know, their stigma. There's. Difficulty with third party payers at cetera. But I always tell the medical students, you know, no, one growing up volunteers to be somebody that in the end is going to commit suicide. This is terrible a hand to be dealt as diabetes or as Jennifer mentioned earlier, terminal cancer and Jennifer go ahead. I also, you know in listening to Sarah, and the fact that she cries every day, and it's coming up on two years. I learned from therapy that grief is love. So when you lose someone you love, it is not only normal but healthy to grieve that loss, but that there is this phenomenon called complicated grief, which is if you don't get some professional therapy or support that can persist and can interfere, you know, in in your recovery in your healing. And and. I also learned and my children learned with therapy. And it's in the book with another survivor story concept or a theory that was developed in the nineteen ninety s by two psychologists called post traumatic growth, and that it's inconceivable when you're in as much pain as the last caller was in to imagine a situation where your life is actually in many ways better, but in dealing with trauma. It is it can be an opportunity for a deeper appreciation of life in rich relationships with other people sometimes that involves spiritual change, but that is possible. And and I hope that our last caller gets to that point. And sir think you're still on the line. Does does what a Charles or Jennifer offer you any? Any leads any guides of things that you can do that feel constructive in this moment. Well, it does. It's it's I looked online, and I've tried to get into these, you know, groups of people talking about their grief online. And I don't know if it's something that's gonna be cathartic for me in any way. I just feel worse. I don't know. How to explain it? I just I'm a very spiritual person. And I I appreciate it awful things and the countryside, and I just miss my daughter, so terribly. And I I know that she was hurting she suffered from anxiety and depression, and but but she had so much to live for. She was so beautiful and bright and smart. And when I can't spell something I have no one to call anymore. You know, like, I just I just I'll do what I can't. I just I I I'm gonna have to go and buy the doctors book. It sounds sounds like it's some of the resources that have been offered you in this conversation would be I hope of some help. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing your. You know, your experiences in your grief. Of course, you miss her. Dr number off what what you say to offer. Those people who say I didn't see the signs I think in speaking to my colleagues before the show that you'd said look their patients of yours where were were one or two of them had taken their own lives, and you had not registered that that was love likely consequence. No, they they weren't even on my worried list. You know, also coaches have patients on their worry list, and and three patients that I've lost in the last two years completely blindsided me, and I think that there there are fundamentally two different kinds of suicides. One is the kind of person who suffered for a longtime with the known psychiatric illness by police order depression, for example, and they just don't get better for whatever reason, they don't get the right treatment. They haven't been availed themselves of any. Treatment, and they finally sort of decide that they've had enough. The other kind is the impulsive suicide these are often occurs outta lessons. And as you know, adolescence is a time of very deep feelings and great hurts, and you know, our society with all social media is sort of set up for this cyberbullying it cetera and many times. Young people will have a terrible hurt. You know, be ostracized from social group B embarrassed in school, the millions not having a date at the prom, and they will impulsively decide to take their life. So it's extremely difficult to pick up on the warning signs there. There is the sort of classic notion. If somebody calls you into I'm going to give away all of my belongings, and I wanna make donation to you know, the charity. Any of your choice, and I just want to tell you what a great friend you've been well, that's a warning sign, but it rarely happens that way chosen are off. You talked a little bit about impulsive decisions. Let's talk a little bit about popular culture. And I think the best way to do it might be through talking about the Netflix show thirteen reasons why the show is built around the mystery of the suicide of its main character named Hannah in this extra segment the series creator. Brian Yorkey talked about the show's depiction of Hannah's suicide. We had a number of people ask us along the way why we had him killer cell from the way, we did the why we showed it we worked very hard not to be too. It's but we did want it to be painful to watch. Because we wanted it to be very clear that there is nothing. In any way worthwhile about suicide. Chose number off your active on the board at the American Foundation for suicide prevention, there was a study out that said from the National Institute of mental health federal, you know, research agency with finding saying that that they thought that it could likely influence teenagers to take their lives. And yet there's another study out from the university of Pennsylvania that showed that suicide risk decreased for students who watch thirteen reasons why all the way through to the end of season two, but that students who stopped in the middle. There seemed to be strong suggestion. We're at a higher risk of suicide what degree of influence, do you ascribe to popular culture episodes, like this will I think it has a tremendous impact? And and I have to tell you that in our own observations the one I was at the university of Miami. When when this show, I. Aired. We showed a large increase in the number of Atta lesson patients who are coming in with either attempted suicide or plans to commit suicide. So I think the enemy NIMH study was very well done. And we know that there is a phenomenon of suicide contagion among outta lessons that there are clusters of suicides that occur a particular high schools after this one there's another this is also been documented and ah veterans who serve in the same unit overseas. There is clustering of suicides. And I think the way I look at it is that there are a multitude of factors that that that either raise her lower wants threshold for suicide, and they conspire to either bring one to threshold or not and that has to do with social supports. Systems using drugs or alcohol cyber bullying it cetera. And I think this is just one additional factor that that is a main contributor, particularly in young people. What do you think that struck about Jennifer Ashton as we wrap up this hour with some advice? You've got from Dr Seuss simmering both reflect in your book and your podcast. She says people ask themselves. How can I be strong in week? How can I be happy and sad people? Make the mistake of thinking it's either or that I'm either I'm strong or weak. I'm really in shock. I'm having a good time. Once you embrace multiple truths. You've gotta recognize it's and and end. Yeah. The concept of multiple truths, which I talk about in the book and something else. I learned from therapy is if you want to heal you have to feel and that has been really hard, but also really freeing, and and really helpful for me, and my children, you know, once you can admit these things to yourself. You can admit them. Two other people. That's Dr Jennifer Ashton ABC news chief medical correspondent author of life. After suicide. Thank you for sharing your experiences for this moving our today. Thank you. And also we'd like to thank Dr Charles Nemov professors psychiatry at the university of Texas medical school. Thanks for joining us. Thank you again. If you have concerns that you are so many, you may know, maybe considering taking his or her life, please contact the national suicide prevention hot lifeline at one eight hundred two seven three eight two five five or the crisis. Text line by texting seven four one seven four one. You could continue the conversation. Get the on point podcast or website on point radio dot org are executive producers Karen Shiffman. I'm David Folkenflik in. This is on point.

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Helen Keller

A Biography Podcast - Life Histories of Successful People

15:42 min | 6 months ago

Helen Keller

"Hello listeners. Welcome to our biography podcast. This week's podcast is about Helen Keller. Helen Keller was a deaf and blind woman who overcame her disabilities and became an American political activist author and lecturer. Unlike many other death and blind people. Helen. Keller was not born deaf and blind. She was born a healthy child. However when she was almost nineteen months old, she contracted an illness that left her deaf and blind. This devastated our world as she couldn't understand anything happening around her. Despite her disabilities she accomplished several feats that made her famous throughout the world. When she was twenty three years old she published her first book at the age of Twenty Four. She became a graduate a feat not achieved by any other deaf blind person before at the age of thirty three, she became a lecturer for the American Foundation for the blind. Chief and traveled the world and worked for the cause of women's rights, labor rights antimilitarism. How can a woman who couldn't even see her here become one of the best humanitarian of the twentieth century listen to this podcast to find out how she overcame her disabilities get a glimpse into her tragic yet profound story. Will. Listen to the of men and women who transformed their lives using pure passion and cheer hard will to become the pioneers in their field and change the course of history. This is wizards whose biography podcast. The podcast helps you learn the real truth about successful personalities subscribe now to get access to future episodes. The biography of Helen Keller. Helen Keller was born in eighteen eighty in Alabama to Arthur Henry Keller and Catherine Everett Keller. Her father was a newspaper editor and a captain in the confederate army. Her mother was the daughter of a general in the confederate army. Helen Keller had two siblings and two half siblings from her father's earlier marriage contrary to most cases Helen was not born blind and deaf she was healthy when she was born. But when she was nineteen months, old Helen Keller contracted a mysterious illness which left her death and blind it was described by. As an acute congestion of the brain and stomach reports suggested that the disease could have been meningitis or scarlet fever. This illness left Helen completely devastated. She had no idea of what was going on around her as nobody knew how to communicate with her with age Helen learned a few signs the Turk convey her needs to her family. When she was seven years old, she could even identify people using the vibration from their footsteps. The unruly kid. Her parents showed extra care for her because of her disability. Since he was a kid, she used this to her advantage and dot whatever she wanted by throwing temper tantrums she dominated the entire household and terrorize the servants. But her parents did not do anything against it because they did not know how to communicate with her. So they gave into her tantrums instead of teaching her to behave properly. Inability to form sentences. Sentences are the basic building blocks of languages but sentences themselves are made up of different words like nouns, verbs, prepositions, etc. so we can say that learning a language without learning, it's words as impossible. However. Helen did not know about the existence of words. So she did not know that everything around her name and she can refer to an object using its name. For example, she can touch table and know that it is there but she didn't know the table can be called a table. Since. She did not know the existence of words she couldn't form sentences either so she couldn't form proper thoughts insider brain since most of our thoughts are in the form of sentences, this could have intern frustrated or in mater unruly and wild. One Book that changed everything. When she was six years old, her mother was reading American notes written by Charles Dickens. It contained his findings during his six month trip to North America in Charles Dickens had written about a deaf blind girl called Laura Bridgman born fifty years before Helen Keller like Helen. She had also lost her ability to see and hear when she was two years old Charles Dickens mentioned that she was successfully. Educated in the English language reading this Helen's mother became hopeful. She immediately sent Helen and her father to visit an ear nose and throat specialist. He referred Helen to Alexander Graham, Bell who in turn referred her to the Perkins Institute for the Blind, this is the same institute where Laura Bridgman had studied the Perkins Institute for the blind sent an old student called an Sullivan to teach Helen Keller. And Sullivan Like Helen Keller and Sullivan had vision problems when she was five years old, she had contracted an eye disease that left her mostly blind after joining the Perkins Institute for the blind she underwent eye is that significantly improved her vision she learned sign language, which is used to communicate with deaf people from Laura Bridgman and graduated when she was twenty years old. Soon after graduating, she was sent to teach Helen. The first word an taught Helen was goal she gave adult to Helen which he took gladly then she felt the letters d. o. l. l. on Helen's other hand Helen learned the letters quickly and imitated ends actions to spell the same word. This indicated to him that Helen was intelligent and can be taught. Meeting her mentor. When an Sullivan I met Helen Keller. She was an unruly kid. She ran around the house breaking things eating from others, plates and was astonished none of Helen's family members did anything to stop her behavior or teacher to behave properly and noticed that her family's sympathy only encouraged Helen to continue being unruly. She understood that she must discipline Helen without using force. And felt that the first step to teaching Helen was to teach her how to behave properly. So with the permission of Helen's family and to custody of Helen for two weeks during these two weeks and was the only person Helen could depend on therefore helen couldn't run to her parents went and tried discipline her. During these two weeks, Helen Learn to behave properly in addition to that helen learn several words from an she could spell them out man's hands but she was just imitating what an was doing just like a monkey she thought it was a game. She did not understand that each of these words have meaning and referred to an object and did not know how to make Helen understand that each of these was a word and had a purpose. In her frustration and took hell into a water pump. She put one hand of Helen under flowing water, and on the other hand she spelled out the letters w. a. t. d. r.. It was only then that Helen had the revelation that this flowing substance had a name cold water helen later remembered the event as. I knew then that W. a. t. e. r. mental a wonderful cool something that was flowing over my hand. That living word awakened my soul. gave it like hopefully set it free. Once, she learned the name for Water Helen Bent. Down immediately touched the earth and demanded its name soon, she learned other words to and by the end of the day new thirty words and their meanings. Helen, later described this meeting as her sole birthday. This signaled the beginning of a forty nine year relationship between and and Helen this interaction between and Helen is brilliantly portrayed in the film. The miracle. Worker. Formal education. Helen's formal education began in eighteen, eighty eight when she and and moved to the Perkins Institute. In eighteen ninety four they moved to New York for higher studies at the Horace Mann School for the deaf in eighteen, ninety six, she got admission into the Cambridge School for young ladies. Nineteen hundred she started her bachelors degree in Radcliffe College. Harvard. University it was unthinkable at that time and age for a deaf blind woman to achieve proper form education through such reputed institutes. But Helen had a thirst for knowledge and helped her quench it. Mark Twain who was impressed by Helen and her perseverance introduced her to an oil magnate who later sponsored Helen's education in nineteen nine, hundred, four Helen graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree from Radcliffe school she was the first deaf blind person to get this degree. Learning to speak. Helen was determined to Converse with people conventionally. So she slowly began reading lips with her hands in speaking small sentences. She used sign language very proficiently and became an expert in Braille. The writing system used for the visually impaired Helen spent the rest of her life giving speeches and lectures on how she overcame the disabilities that crippled and became an inspiration to death and blind people across the world. She shared the joy that life gave her in her speeches and motivated young women and men to live life to the fullest. Personal Life. The nineteen o five and married John macy and John and Helen move to forest hills in New York along with the HOUSEHELP polly Thomson ends health began to deteriorate and nineteen fifteen. So polly started taking care of Helen. When she was in her mid Thirties Helen secret love affair with a finger spelling specialist sent to her home to be with her when an fell ill, she even tried to Elope with him and got secretly engaged the affair ended soon after when Helen moved in with her mother in Alabama after her father's death. And died in the year nineteen, thirty, six with Helen by her side after Ann's death, the household help poly became Helen's companion. They both traveled the world together and raised money to help blind people polly died in the year nineteen sixty and Helen was left with a nurse who was originally hired to look after Paulie. She remained with Helen until her death in the year nineteen, sixty eight. Books lectures. Helen authored a total of twelve books and many articles at the age of twenty two helen published her autobiography, the story of my life with the help van. She toured thirty five countries to raise awareness about causes. He was passionate about. The Helen Keller Foundation was founded in the year nineteen fifteen for research and charitable purposes. Helen felt strongly about the causes she supported and was a staunch supporter of the working class. She traveled to many countries to motivate deaf and blind people and became a favourite of the masses. Contribution to the world. Before Helen's time blind and deaf people were considered a burden for the family. They were treated harshly and sent to live in asylums where the living conditions were terrible. Nobody thought that they could contribute anything to society. But Helen Keller changed all that she proved to the world that when provided with proper guidance and support blind and deaf people can accomplish great things. This not only motivated blind and deaf people, but also taught others to treat them better. During Helen's time four systems were used to teach visually impaired to read and write this caused confusion and difficulty when blind people wanted to communicate with each other due to Helen's continued efforts in one thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, two, Braille was made the standard system to teach blind people this made it easy for blind people to communicate with each other she traveled to different countries to help. Visually challenge people her visits created real improvements in the form of more Braille books, better educational opportunities, and job training for the blind. These improvements have helped blind people to integrate with society. She also pushed the US government to provide more assistance to the blind her fundraising campaigns for the American Foundation for the blind continue to help blind people get proper education were training and live independently. Helen. Also supported birth control and was against military intervention. She joined the famous International Labor Union called industrial workers of the world she wrote for them from Nineteen, sixteen to nineteen eighteen highlighting workers, plights, and the greed of their employer's. Political ideology. was a radical socialist who opposed Woodrow Wilson, and favored leftist political ideologies. She was a member of the socialist. Party and spread awareness through her writings on the rights of women in the impacts of war. She met twelve US presidents. Helen even wrote a series of essays on socialism called out of the dark. Death. Then, her last year's Helen was mostly confined to her home. After suffering a series of strokes, she continued to raise awareness through the American Foundation for the Blind Helen continued to raise funds for them to on I nine hundred and sixty eight. She passed away peacefully in her sleep at her home in Connecticut. Bonders. The hospital in Alabama. The Helen Keller Hospital is dedicated to Helen Alabama honored her by issuing a coin in Braille in her name. Helen. Keller is also inducted in the National Women's hall, of Fame and Alabama women's hall of fame. She was one of the inaugural inductees in the Alabama Writers Hall of fame as well. Various movies and television series were made on Helen's life and we're loosely based on her autobiography. The Bollywood movie black was based on her life. Fact. You probably didn't know. Helen Keller and mark. Twain. Were good friends. They were both radical socialists. It was Mark Twain who gave an Sullivan the name neural worker. Helen's family got a whiff of her affair with her male secretary and those days people believed that if a parent is disabled, the child will be born with the same disability to so her family forbade the two of them to marry because of her disabilities Helen said that the first thing she would do if she could see would be to get married. She introduced the US to the dog breed Akita which was gifted to her when she toured Japan. She won an Oscar for her documentary Helen Keller in her story. Helen was an excellent typist and could type very fast in both standard typewriter and Braille. Typewriter. Due to her radical political views the F. B. I. Track Helen's relationships and activity for almost thirty years. We hope that this podcast helped you learn about Helen Keller for struggles and her achievements whenever you think your life gets out of hand remember what Helen said. Although the world is full of suffering. It is also full of the overcoming of it. This podcast was created by with Zoro, a learning APP for your entire family to read interesting articles or listen to interesting audios on finance health history life stories, and science download our APP from apple and Google play stores are APP is fell W I s you are you

Helen Helen Keller Helen Keller Foundation Helen Keller Hospital Helen Bent Helen Learn Helen Alabama Alabama US Arthur Henry Keller American Foundation Mark Twain Perkins Institute Catherine Everett Keller Sullivan Charles Dickens confederate army lecturer Laura Bridgman Radcliffe College