1 Episode results for "Allenby Pharaoh"
Kirby Dick & Amy Ziering - 'Allen v. Farrow'
"Hybrid one and thank you for tuning into the three hundred ninety. Six episode of awards chatter the hollywood reporter's awards podcast. I'm the host gothenburg and my guest. Today are two documentary. Filmmakers who teamed up on some of the most acclaimed an impactful documentary projects of the twenty first century. Indeed while his first oscar nomination came for a documentary that he made without her two thousand. Four's twist of faith which explored sexual abuse in the catholic church. They have experienced their greatest successes on projects they made together. Which also tackled subjects related to sexual misconduct. Two thousand twelve the invisible war for which they were oscar-nominated in one peabody award. Shine a light on sexual assault in the military. Two thousand fifteen. The hunting ground for which they received the producers guild stanley kramer award exposed the epidemic of rape on college campuses. Two thousand twenty's on the record looked at numerous allegations of sexual misconduct on the part of hip hop mogul russell simmons and alan v pharaoh a four-party. Hbo docu series which dropped last. Spring examines allegations of sexual abuse. Made by dylan farrow against her father woody allen and has brought this team primetime emmy nominations for writing directing and producing. I'm talking about kirby. Dick and amy's eric over the course of our conversation. The sixty eight year old and fifty eight year old reflected on their very different journeys to filmmaking. How i crossed paths and began working together. How sexual misconduct became a running theme of their work. What they would have asked woody allen if he had agreed to be interviewed for allen. V pharaoh plus much more and so without further ado. Let's go to that conversation. Aiming kirby thank you so much for joining us on the podcast great to have you and to see you guys again and on this one. We really do begin at the beginning. We're gonna work our way to the current project but just to start with. I wonder if you can each share where you were born in raised. Amy can you kick us off on my gosh born framingham massachusetts than i was raised in newton gerrad socks until i was six years old and then we moved to la unsound then. I should add before we go to curvy. He also tell us. Just what your folks did for living always interesting to see how you know what people come from to get into this business. That's that's interesting. i'm my dad. May he rest in. Peace was a holocaust survivor and when he was liberated from the camps. He couldn't speak any english so he went into the sciences and he ended up getting a phd in physics and actually did the heat. Shields for the apollo's only which is quite extraordinary. I like it's interesting to share right because like what we lose from these genocides traumatic events that toy inflict on others. He managed to do that. But then in the seventies whitaker corporation would ham and they said we wanna do we want to compete with nasa and we want to start a space program on the west coast. This was kind of when the boom appre now. Space exploration had sort of a very optimistic about it ended he moved. That's why we all moved from boston to To la and then of course the all of that fantasma exploded imploded and it vanished and so that actually for my child owned car wash so it was like there wasn't a lot of freelance for for nuclear physicists. Where else do you go to what he did it. So i mean base us was was a baby. Ten a twinkle at his mother's is so so that was that and actually so i grew up. I i did cashier on weekends and my brother did what we call kiss off you clean the cars off. And so he he Ran a car wash for about. Ten years was continually because he was as entrepreneurs continue looking for something else to do and then by the time he was forty and i got into college. He had started a diagnostic company. That tests blood. And that's what he ended up doing and actually became a very successful businessman so it was kind of a very interesting career and my mom was a speech therapist when she thought she was marrying a physicist did that when he was doing that they apologize and then everything else as she kind of just when he did buy a car wash. She worked the car wash and then when he did his sled testing business. She ended up doing marketing so she was an adjunct to his his work career. Okay kirby although you not quite as Sensational but i do want to say about it. Is that it's quite. It's been sort of very instructive story. About what immigrants bring to this country. Brian i mean he was able to. His father was able to making credible contributions in two completed fields. My parents were teachers My dad was a high school teacher. My mom's a junior high teacher. I grow up. i was born in phoenix. Arizona and grew up in tucson arizona. Left when i was eighteen to go to college. You know is kind of a bourbon live. It was a good time. You bring in tucson other than the fact that it was It was at that time that was during the cold war and the cuban missile crisis. And so what the. Us government decided to put a ring of found a missile icbm missiles around the say right so it was like everybody just sitting. It'd be completing ring. But i will say but my parents they were always a sort of. They were always activists in their own way. I mean there were very involved in the methodist church. They were involved in the original great boycott. I remember going out and picketing and and things like that you know when i was. I don't know early teens. I think my mother was the first person. Introduce the concept of reconciling church to her. You know of. I think it was arizona. California division of the matha church and she was the first person to say you know we should brace gays and lesbians and And to the first person to kind of do that. At a at a nash regional conferences. So they're always they're always some you know activists arson social justice. And if i say one more thing about your point kirby about The emigrants is that my dad actually made it a point once. He was in a position When he had that blood testing business the diagnostic business that he started his forties of hiring immigrants. Pretty much exclusively. Because he wanted to do for them. What this country had done for him. So i remember growing up. We had the boat the boat people. He had russian immigrants. We had an iranian child. Live with us. You know one. When the shah fell he got out his parents and that was really. I learned to that. Up-close i do remember at the dinner table. My mom said that at one point. Someone ran from the backward. The russians are fighting the russians brennan. She turned on the radio thinking. Oh my god and now it was just the russians were fighting back with a department so anyways so that both interesting back backgrounds and so for just a minute i'm going to direct solely to amy and then to curvy and then obviously your lives merging will ask stuff to both you but just to keep focusing for one minute on on amy's timeline And actually sticking with the subject of your father. I have read in my prep that there really was sort of a profound moment. I guess when you were fifteen that kind of shape the rest of your life to this point right i guess unconsciously like you never know those moments right but and it only happened. In retrospect that i realized that perhaps it was as profound as it was. 'cause to me. Just live your life. But yes i mean. My dad was a holocaust survivor. There was nothing ever ever ever ever ever discussed ever like. All i knew was those words and as a kid like you don't even really know what those words mean. We were one of those families. Because i've heard it goes either way. The person does not stop talking about it or they never talk about it. And and actually i was. I was in the second kind of family and my mom wasn't a survivor. So it was kind of a strange sort of specter or ghosts but nothing. I had anything to really tangibly hook it two or but when i was fifteen i came home from high school and there was on my bed. A a manila like binder. I remember that those big kind of clips that they used to have in the seventies. And i didn't know what it was and i looked at it and i opened it and it was a play that my dad had written. It was called if i were god and my dad. Also if you knew him was like like like not a plague i not. No fear like create not create like that was like just as sort of bright brains. What and then. I read it and it was about About little boys watching their moms in selection line peeking through the curtain of their barrick or whatever their bunk and like just talking like is it going to be heard and it kind of rocked my world at the time and then i went to him and i said why you know like an it was obviously you know His experience that he was trying to and i said why. Haven't you ever. This is incredible. I'm so sad and you know thank you for sharing. And he said you know when we got out of the camps. I wanted to tell people. And when i did they were like i can't hear this. I can't believe it. it's too horrible. And he said so. I learned that you know the the lesson was you. Don't talk or you can't talk or you shouldn't talk or any all of the above. And so i just stopped. And this was his way but he said. But i feel it's important for my children and for the world you know there has to be some testimony or testimony and this is my testimony so end of story. I went on with my life. And this is what i made about unconscious year many years later i was doing an interview in australia for post invisible. Warren some woman said why. Why did you do what you do. Why do you care so much about trauma you know and i said i don't know why you know why do dancers dance. It's sort of always. And then i thought about the play and i thought oh. Well maybe i. Maybe it's about my desire to somehow allow people feel. They can't speak have a platform. This is what i you know. This is maybe what i was put here to do. Is to allow allow testimony. You know to be heard and as you say. It wasn't sort of an immediate understanding that that was the case. Because you go off to amherst and i think the focus was an english And i guess though somewhere along the line there feminists theory which obviously would probably come in helpful with more recent stuff but that that that became a part of it. But just what did you as. You're at emerson then later Getting a phd at yale. What did you actually think you were going to end up doing with all of this. I'm i'm to this day. i still think. Myself as elapsed academic. I mean i was hardcore. And i was not honest. People like the second. I got into college. I didn't know what i do and high high school there. It was like for grabs. I said this that an area and lawyer. But once i got in college i was like all in on the studying and like something changed. I became extremely introverted. Islas like the most uninteresting person no life all did was read. And like i knew from there. I wanted to go to graduate school. I wanted to teach and that was it. It wasn't like and that's what i did. I did and i did study. Yeah i studied philosophy and political theory and feminist theory. And i was sort of in the in quotation marks you know the deconstruction school which was yes. You know rising at the time. But i studied with fukuda. I studied with data. I studied with shoshana film and barbara. Johnson who were shoshana ladainian train. So that was what was kind of what rocked my world. And what i was really really into and is not pilot is also extremely politically motivated and also kind of interestingly since we are in a podcast interestingly intersects with what hap how how things can have an effect. Even if they don't have a tangible reference fill which i also think informed my life and then as another sidebar parentheses when you are a child of a survivor you also can get secondary. Ptsd without knowing it. And i think my introversion and my seclusion was also a way in which i sort of had kind of taken on my father's pain because he was sort of for all that he did he was really a quiet reserved in somewhat depressed. You know untreated depressed person. And i think that that kind of don't know i think that kind of informed the way i kind of chose to live my life and mike. You know twenty one last thing for you. Imagine that i'm coming to you. Kirby but i wanna ask you about. It seems like you were something. Put you on the track of being involved. The world of film making a prior to you guys collaborate. You were already involved with at least one film that i'm aware of about this homeless guy running for city council in santa monica. And that was eventually taylor's campaign. Nineteen ninety eight you know. How do you go from philosophy now to filmmaking. At least in the beginning of your filmmaking career. It's a funny story. i was at yale. I was doing a graduate degree. Adopt a doctorate degree. So it's like a lot of years and you have to be a ta. And i only like and want deanne roderick. David roderick was running the department and he needed. Ta's and he is zeroing interested. She's from la. She must know about film. I knew nothing like nothing. I wasn't terribly i willy. That's not you know. I mean i studied film at amherst that nothing growing up. I like walked out of star wars. That i've never seen anything since so but i i i liked teaching and so i would literally just read stuff a day ahead of the kids and you know and hope for the best and then i found a kind of interesting and then cut to. Meanwhile i'm working on this comparative literature. Degree eight yell and on studying with shock gerrita and and it was kind of like you know. He's he's definitely was a feminist but it was very boys. Looks like a strange bro environment. Where like an the women were kind of scared to talk in class and me included and you know the ones that were venerated and anointed where you know the the guys kind of and i was you know and i wanted attention and i was like i'm gonna make a movie on him and he'll have to pay attention to me and it'll actually be more challenging than writing a paper like sure everyone can remember you guys the paper and started stocking him literally and he was like blowing me off big time and he was like an effort. Good reason he was like you know if you're interesting. My work read me and so finally said to him. Look if there was a film today that you could watch of nature of socrates plato. Come on and he said you know you'd rewrite jockeyed begetting the first ticket and like i said well you're that years later. People are going to end so he he. He reluctantly eventually agreed. And only not even really i mean he said no no no it was literally two years and then he wrote me a postcard so for anyone any of already out there. That's highly significant because he actually wrote a book called postcards without the ways that you know letters don't always reach their destination et cetera. But and he wrote in french and he is the worst like it rivals. Any doctor enough doctors in the seventies like he couldn't like it's like sanskrit. And i had no idea what it said and i ran to my neighbor who was to houston is not like do you all you people right this way you cannot actually like. I have no idea what this says. So i said well someone's writing a postcards a friendly gesture so i wrote to the french embassy and i said i dared us permission and he at that time was like he didn't know images of him no interviews. I said this is major. You have to help me. I need a grant. And they're like if you really have his permission we will give you grant and three weeks later. I was at his doorstep with the camera and And with kirsten johnson because they gave me a grant and they said we will use our students and Kirstin all of this people. Just be out on the way to promote. Its gersten right. So she was a student at famous. I looked at the students. Send me reels. I saw her realize that she's got an amazing high. You know and didn't know her at all and she spoke beautiful french and She'd gone to brown undergrad and studied semiotics and we met in paris and she started filming with me. And that's how that's crazy story. And then so then. I knew nothing like i had this footage. I called a grownup in l. a. One of my girlfriends was an editor on dead. Poet's society like an assistant. And i called her and i said this will mean nothing to you but i trust me. It's a big deal. I have this philosophers permission. I have no idea what i'm doing and they'll think i do because the from la and she's like you know there's this guy out and silverlake. I don't know his stuff at all. Is named kirby dick. I'm good friends with dody. Dorn ended up editing memento. And she's editing some fullness whatever your fly back. Let's go see a rough cut. And so we went. So i flew at christmas or something kirby was screening sick with doty at dodi's house in echo park and i showed up and clause the story there. Because i wanna. I wanna meet back here when when we catch up with. What brought kirby to that moment. So kirby As i understand it you end up at cal arts. I don't know if you did you finish at cal arts or no. No i'm i i no not at all. I never actually graduated from any school. Even though i went to a number of school. Sometimes painting sometimes auditing Usually i mean. I had very little money so when i was like i was able to the first term i had to pay tuition the second term. I i said to them look can only pay half tuition. I think expect amadou a half load. Continue doing about the third time. I didn't even pay. I just went. You know studying with some you know john bob. Mike ascher was gone to another school and other you know very very kind of kind of conceptual school. In halifax nova coat scotia college design. And so i was very immersed in you know sort of conceptual theory contemporary art and it was. It was a revelatory experience because at both schools. I mean The the creek process was so rigorous and an actually trained me how to look at any kind of art. Which is you. Don't just look at it from within the formal Issues that the that the medium brings up but you look at it from the personal perspective from the social from the political it was advanced. I mean sorry. One of i mean. My gosh in particular was a kind of famous for having chris go on for hours and hours and hours and the classified or six people can so people say he would just let it. Nothing happened for five minutes and then somebody would pop up with something and it would start again. I mean it was a bit like endurance tests. But it really it really did force you to come to terms with and this was stupid word usually but to come to terms with it in every possible way and so that was great training for me well in a lot of people that i know who have gone through cal. Arts are people that go on and they become disney animators or pixar. All different kinds of. I don't know too many of them To which is to say. I don't know any others who went on to be making. You know social activist documentaries of at what point did it occur to you that You know that not only film but documentary film. Was the way that you were going to go with. This was in the artist goal. So i wasn't in the film's animation so And i had this kind of naive idea. Kind of like amy Well i'm working a lot in video. Art is just a short staff to making scripted features. It's just you know so anyway. So i started to write scripts and They were okay. They win back good. I mean they should have been made And and i just. I was getting a little frustrated. I was trying to low budget independent film. And i thought i saw a number of people who had started on documentary so i said to myself okay. That's the way to go. You make one. And then that's a stepping stone. While i made my first documentary on And it was so fascinated both what happened in front of the camera. What happened around the camera. The whole process that i just kind of fell in love with the form right there and and of course you know a number my films. They were very much focusing on kind of psychological issues trauma issues but It was It was just so rich to be inside that in working that it working the way you do in a documentary all personal and political issues of sort of explode out of that so you mentioned that this first one was sex surrogate therapy exactly exactly as This was in the mid eighties. So was monthly for there was for some women where manu had some sort of generally is sort of. I mean there's a lot of different is used different situations but for the most part of men who had some kind of sexual problems and the idea was to team them up with a set surrogate. Who would go through this sort of. I don't know if people remember but masters know message. Johnson now right. It was a sort of a ten twenty thirty week program where people where they will deal with sexual issue actually step by step it started with pam harassing and things like that kind of train them in some ways you know how to deal with the problem but also trained him hotter express themselves physically and emotionally as well and and and i was. I was able to convince people to agree found because of the process. If i paid for their therapy one was a young guy who didn't have any money. The other guy was had money but was changed which was part of his problem and so But of course what happened in that situation is that all the personal and emotional things come out so you happens in you know many most ongoing sexual interactions and And so it caught all that and then the other thing about this is interesting. Is that the same time this is happening. This is all been prescribed by therapist and the therapist is meeting with the client and meeting with the surrogate after each session to find out what what happened and you know and then give instructions on what should be done that so you had this triangle relates to you. Know i mean so much. Literature and film is based on the triangle. You have really writes. Got up there so it worked out. Well it was successful premiered phil matt's pro regional. La and it. Was you know in the film that's used to i. I don't think i like film festivals. Are batch shown. Some expert mirrors thousands of people would just be so explosive so you had his documentary which the light of day you know in two thousand people And then it went on to you know vision in home video so did well and so that that brings me to the last question for you before we merged these story lines and that is is there any rhyme or reason to the fact that all right so that deals in in one sense with sexuality the film that you were working on when amy met you Which i guess was at that point in late. Stages was sick. The life and death of bob flanagan supermasochist about a b. dsm celebrity in the last years of his life. Obviously there's a sexual element to that. And then of course in recent years together you guys have dealt with quite a bit of you know sexual abuse related stuff just is it purely coincidental or was there something. That explains why that would have been a area that you're drawn to it. Why wednesday. It's going to i think the number reasons one The most simple level. I was interested in getting something seen so if i was going to pick something that was you know. Psychologically even philosophically complex. I didn't want something that would be really interesting but nobody of watch. So that was that was somewhat of a business decision if you will But i also think a lot of people who are working in this arena are coming from the outside right our end And i noticed that all my work and in all of amy's in my work. I think has been about outsiders. You know. I mean homeless person running for office in santa monica dairy. I mean and and that's something. I've always been drawn to because you can you. It allows you position of critique. Right i mean some money. Usually outsiders have really thought this through. And then you can take this film and sort of enhanced and smash it against the culture in a way and you know. I think we've gotten better and better as smashing pretty hard in the culture has to react and to and i was always interested into power film in that way more in the beginning with them. You films Sick in private practice which was some about sex or therapy. It was more psychological. And the about the you know the the sexual politics that go on in a personal relationship of concerns but But yeah no. I mean it's i think it's i think a lot of people i mean. I think a lot of writers have have used a Sexuality as a way of critiquing mainstream society share or not just critiquing but sort of understand. You know packing right bearing witness or you know that. So rich. But i wanted to make a bad joke. Well dick pics burn fire. It was right that would have been the production company. So i of course you guys do meet at this at this i guess work-in-progress screening of of sick and i guess the film ends. And maybe you wanna take the story from their amy. Why did you guys man. And i'm blown away blown away and it was so smart. It was so much so different. From what i expected. You know documentary can really run a gamut would be very just information thank you and it could also be sort of you know an exquisite piece of art transport of and it also can be like transported but not that deep and it was transported than deep and it was also oddly. Enough very iranian. I mean it was about as you said a sadomasochist. But kirby didn't you know what the film does is. It really upsets your ability to hire guys in any facile way those relationships which is what you know. Conventional society typically does but actually went. Dairy does work is all about is about. Let's look at these top bottoms and see how they sort of are mutually constituent of as opposed to you know and let's look at what we consider aberrant behavior. It's actually normative or kahn. Co constituents who are the norm. And if you don't know what normal is if you don't have an understanding babar. Normal so come out of the screening mind blown gupta. Kirby say this was great. Gave him my notes. Of course that. Something's narrow change. And i said i said i'm working on this film on dairy and also up until this time you have to understand that you could pretty much clear room like if you sent that to anyone in la like it was like humor. Martian no one had heard of him or could care less like they were just turned in like. Look for some interesting to talk to. And kirby said oh my god. I love his work. I've read him like and so then i he said i'm happy to help you. And he actually did offer his help for quite some time. And i don't know if we'll have the same right memory but i think he then said why don't we go direct and i was like that and then after like a year i was like help. Come back you know please god. Let's go direct because you've been you've been at this for a few years already. You were running up against the wall. Yeah actually so that same time. I call debbie's in that editor on dead poet's society. I also called my girlfriend margaret waller. Who had been a professor of mine at amherst and she had gone to film school posts. Teaching amherst i. I did the same thing i was like. How and she said you. Gotta talk to richard cohen. He's the only filmmaker i know. He does a really cool stuff. So that's so at the same time. So i got connected to kirby. And i got connected to richard. Richard was making wasn't making so met richard esau his films actually deadly force was really good less sophisticated and complicated intellectually but really smart verite film and and so then i said what's your what are you doing. He said kind of like there's this guy on our street is wants to run for city council and he's homeless and i think that that would be really interesting to follow and i was like i wanna get experienced. That sounds really cool. So then yes produced that with richard. So i was doing those two things at the time sort of keeping garrett oslo and so that's how my career morphed and kirby you of course before. I don't know how when you when you have this conversation about daria with amy. Had you actually seen any of the footage that she shot or were you taking a leap of faith that it was going to be somebody who actually wanted to work with. Oh no i think Once we started. When i brought that up by seeing the footage and i was like i was. Yeah yeah no. I was very struck. By how dare. I came across on film. I mean that was kind of the first thing. I want now And you know you done. I mean some people do and some people don't it doesn't mean they're more interesting unless interesting cable. Just kinda the way it is. And that's that's one of the things that sort of determines whether you want to make a some with them and and and you know you can tell you know within five minutes that he had this star power want to say that and You know amy sean. In paris some really interesting footage to and it was. I mean i think because of her naievety and and because he had never really interacted with a documentary crew in any way the she was able to get on. This is that a lot of people in his position would have just put up as politely right. But she just just you know. She had the assumption that what you have to shoot everything. And he's he's a kind of implied guy thirty. She was able to get some amazing footage. So there was that too and So yeah no i was. I was very interested in the channel and challenge. I look for i mean. It's more into challenge by. Look for something you know i might fail in you. Know obviously making a film on daria. That's a real possibilities treating tyson to me but this is funny and for people out there that makes them because this is so kirby so he did you know he was helping me whatever remember that and then like when he was like i said let me come over and see some footage and he came over. I so remember this. And i remember nothing. I don't remember his. Name's eternal present. But i have such a snapshot of this kirby. I don't remember you came over as renting a house in santa monica and he watched the footage and it was. It was like watching paint dry. I mean the guy was talking wearing a suit and talking about like who knows what like you know. And i remember. You didn't watch much and you're like okay. Great you've got a subject. He's a great subject. That was so interesting to me. And i thought i thought oh. Kirby's he's not like but you know. I i you know but that was your evaluation. And you're very much like that throughout and i have learned from you and i have learned as we've made films it's all about right if it's not just what you know what you wanna do but you have to have that that lead unfortunately that sort of narrative convention of a real someone people can really connect onto care about and you know has sort of a shine to them particularly in obviously fiction but that rule applies kind of documentary to and kirby saw that. He's like okay. We got it you know. Whatever happens like we can do that is because this guy's okay we'll correct me if any of this was wrong but in total for that one eight years ninety hours of footage all different formats that it was shot on i guess just probably out of necessity at that time But then here's the interesting thing which i don't know if there's ever been another case of this with something you guys have worked on but is it correct that he had dirt ahead essentially final. Cut here. yes it's not final. What did we. It was true that okay eight years because also he said yes no yes no yes no and then. We ended up making a film that privileged that like. We didn't know that his you know he really had the brakes on the whole time and he really always you know. The film became about that sort. Of what is that insistence in that rhetoric. Reticence and what's instructive about it. You know he really kind of wanted this. He was kind of the anti kardashian. Like he ron to always call attention to the artifice. What does that mean the context you know the narcissism he made it so it was that was why and he would he would he would invite us to things and then like the most egregious example is i was pregnant with one of my kids l. blur and he called me and said i'm going to be in south africa meeting mandela. Do you wanna come. And i was like the are and so i then couldn't fly. I like it got postponed and eight months. Which and so. I i had the bbc bbc. They sent a film crew who had experienced right going to south africa. Like do all remotely. Can i get a call from the cinematographer when the whole thing supposed to go off. And he sends me estrada's at semi shot. What looks like a lot. And it's a shot of a closed gate. And i'm like you gotta be what and he's like. The professor will let us in. And i'm like what are you talking about. Presser won't let you in. He's like the professor decided that it's embarrassing for him to show up with a film crew when he needs a great man like mandela ball. Tell the professor go fuck himself. I'm not paying for you to be like. Show me a picture of gay. I was so pissed and also it s kirby semi anita tan young and that so he got the after he got you know whatever but we didn't get the but that was that's why it took so long to because dairy though is like really difficult but i ruined to respect that difficulty and it actually if you watch the film. It's about it's about that so anyways that's we'll so as you guys you know you. This one gets done after all that in it is well received and now was there a kind of a conversation like we. Let's keep working together. I mean there. Aren't that many a pair of consistently working together. Filmmakers who are not either siblings or or spouses. Or whatever. I guess just was there ever an actual conversation or has it just kind of worked out this way we did fighting ever since kirby. What's your what's your recollection. I was working with another producer. Serve at the same time making dairy. I made under stone cold chain camera and and then when we continue continued in films and But we we made Twist phase which was about clergy sexual abuse which came just shortly after the boston globe. Expose on. That was the first time you know i really directly encountered you know. I had to some degree indirectly. In some of the films directly encountered issues around you know Sexual assault and sexual abuse. And then i made. This film is not yet rated. Yes about the mpa rating system. And then any shwed. My producer decided. He wanted to autozone he he he. He wanted to make things over more comedic. And that was that was my orientation and you know that that is not that continues to happen. People that have worked with us have said. This is this is wonderful. It's a wonderful. Collaboration has been but i don't wanna live in this intense on May i totally drawn to you. Know i mean it's just for all kinds of reasons. I think for It's dramatic over. Just your personal experience. Some of being with someone like that is just it. It just opens your own kind of understanding what people are and also kind of ami was referencing before you know you know about her father that nobody listening you realize that these people have so much to say and nobody wants to hear it and if and if you don't believe don't put that out in many ways they will run get hurt you know. I mean you look at the invisible war in. Is that how that changed. The way people are hearing so for me at least is is is just. There's so many there's so much possibility in going into that pain but we can have a discussion about the ethics of that and everything but Which is complex. And of course the other thing that i think is really rich. About documentary is always complexity to every aspect of our weather's production whether it's ethics whether it's and i think you know that's how you explore something as you put yourself into a situation and then try to find the responsible and caring Through so well and just to keep track of the chronology are so derrida comes out in two thousand two and then i guess you guys started on the invisible war together in two thousand eight hundred so that actually precedes the release of outrage. So i'm i don't know maybe that was even earlier than the invisible war but there were a few years in there when you were doing. You're going your separate ways right right a little bit i was. I was a failed lapsed academic. I didn't get the jobs i had wanted. And did some teaching being you know the the job market like still never recovered. Actually it's been horrible for like ever So so then i did. A feature film with my event has been called the memory thief which is actually also really sophisticated an interesting about memory and appropriation on trauma and and caribbean. I see it and touch and then we did reunite. I think what i think for outrage right. Kirby i think eddie moved on. And then i came back but if i say something else because there's a lot of interesting things that made me think of one. Is i think what you know. I used to think herbie kurdi can do these things. And i you know i can but it's it takes a real tall these things meaning the really intense things gas. You know you have a heart of like a little piece of call in their courteous. But i would use to torture him too. I've listened to a podcast the other day and it was talking about how there's a really healthy form of empathy so less healthy form of empathy. And i think kirby has that you know he is healthy form. Where like you feel it but you don't get so lost in it you know. And so bull. They'll say you know that french word like like you're in a washing machine by it. But your you can you actually. It's still palpable and moves you. But you're functioning in your high functioning and you're not destroyed by it. So i wanted to say that that i think that that's what's allowed him to have the tenacity and temerity and fortitude to do the kind of work that he does and then the other thing i wanted to say about what he said about Responsibility because buried Had a lecture. When i was filming him and it was about responsibility and what i found was really interesting. Though word. responsibility comes from the word bomb. Which is to respond. That's where responsibly concern responsibly. At its essence is responding to the call of the other that is living a responsible life and bearing witness whatever that witnesses to their trauma to their testimony to their story. And so that was really informative. I mean you know as much as like deconstruct it's been so bastardising misunderstood students like amoral. It is such an ethical like playbook are honestly and so. I took those words to hard and i do want to say also that we seen in terms of Bearing witness it's not just our films. It's actually the act of sitting down at interviewing some yup. It's it's life changing. You know we've had people say you know your interview. Even i didn't end up in your film but thank you for filming me because you know the first time someone listened. And i'm a different person as a result totally well so by the time you guys reunite for outrage and then invisible war Kirby's up this first oscar nomination for twist of faith and never got one he got a head start on you there but so outraged just to remind people eventually comes out in two thousand nine Looking at closeted politicians who are hypocrites there many well. I guess in all cases that you guys illustrate there and and here was sort of the also the beginning of a pattern. That i believe was the case until on the record years later. Which was that. Kirby's the director and amy. You're the producer does that is that actually a or was that a meaningful distinction or were you what. What did that actually mean. While i think rick documentary there's mean producers direct directors produce. I mean so much of of documentary. Is i mean and in some ways maybe the most important part is how subjects are brought into the projects right and and how their continued being the project and even long after release. I mean it's a it's a long relationship. And because you know i mean there's only ranging between producer director but this these people who are making the phone by your also together engaging in this project and so so i would say i mean you know the the the term creative producer seamers. She is an exceptionally creative producer. And and for for outrage Ended the introduce but after that most of my game he did some too. But i can see even in those interviews. How good she was at during the interviews. And and so you know. I made us very early on that. She should absolutely do those interviews. And and it's just amazing to watch work. Because i mean she has this whole idea of how she's going to get it through every aspect not only story but the and the emotional fallout of it but all the other theoretical everything that comes out. I mean it. Just you know. She's really as a master at work. And i mean. I i mean to this day i think i mean all our interviews but i think the invisible war interviews are as you know as good as it gets in american documentary. I really really do and But it's interesting 'cause she brought up this washing machine approach and she is really rocked in these interviews. I mean You know she she. Is you know very empathic. And she shares the pain as these people are sharing the pain. And i think that allows them to open up more. Because i really in many ways. That's what they're looking for. First and foremost and never gotten right is that somebody say i'm here with you in this right. You're not alone. In many cases. I think for the rest of their lives. Which is why missed. Many sexual assault survivors Aside brian and i think then that just add seeing another person there with them tearing up Just allows it just releases them and and and that kind of state of release. They're able to tell her story in a completely different way. So amy also has all other. I mean she's very quick. This is one thing. I've i've come to realize she's very quick making really brilliant judgments which is just the opposite of the way i work i i mean i will said preach china i got it. I got it but no i will just take you know as long as i can and get as many opinions that i can just really think this through i really value other perspectives. Don't wanna bring that in. Which is why when. Amy said you know in her in her comments which gave me your comments about said i know i didn't say i would've anybody comes to me. I will listen to that. i will work through. Their comments are so So i think. And it's taken me some time to realize that that she's very good at those judgments of those quick jetsons are so often right because i've been on Maybe just been suspicious of quick judgments right and so but that's part of the process of collaborating you start to realize that people strength and that initial response she has you know it may not be complete answer but it's got a vision. Well maybe that's why you guys It because there's different shrank approaches. Maybe that is why you work well together writing me puzzle. One hundred percent is like the tortoise and the hare and what was describing before about that teacher that five hours. That's a revelation that's where he picked this up. It is like a mid rosh section session every like anything and email that acted for five hours. So you know. And i'm need polar opposite so yeah but i want to go back because that was a really death dodge question which we won't dive into in this podcast. Thank you for all the compliments. I wanna say something interesting actually about outrage and it comes off of actually where kirby kirby's background so kirby does this not yet rated derbies past is conceptual art past okay. So i'm art stupid but like that's something about like right. It's kirby what is like a two sentence conceptual art. It's like it's performance. It's event it's not just static. It's not just you look at something and its content. Okay everybody you're gonna get so many muslim letters like she doesn't but anyway let's hope some of that's right. What's interesting about. Not this. Home is not yet rated was it. Performed the very thing. It was interrogating right. And you know. Obviously people love that in for those listening. It's a critique of the arts and analysis of the ratings board but it's sent itself. Kirby did a rough cut sent it to the mba and then fill them reacting to the cut of his genius. Like this on a beam. And it's also william and don't you have a thing in in derrida where you're filming him watching a film of few filming or something. It was like oh my god you got like five fucking stars. Yeah we call that exactly. Okay so yeah so so. That was kind of ingenious and everybody loved it. You know and then we did outrage. And what kirby so interesting to me about. That was kirby was like. I want this not to just bear witness to these people doing this kind of shitty thing and kind of try and unpack it and understanding. I want us to engage in it. So we're implicated so we actually outed governor crist in our. Our film is doing the very thing. It's following activist doing. It's talking about the ethics of the complicated ethics of actually doing so. I thought that was sort of very interesting. And that for me came from for me. What was interesting about. That was also from the work. I did in graduate school. Which is performance and constitutive where you know dairy does talks about the ways in which sentence can can say something content wise but it also can do something an example i. This is a table. Says something and an or i christened that ship the second you say that and crack that bottle the world has changed by basis of simply the those words being uttered so it's a performance gesture so you know in a lot of deconstruction talks about the relationship of those two things and other not really vast distinct as we'd like to think so anyways so long short way of saying that i think our work has this of element that it's not just about it array shen. It's not just about explanation. It's actually about activation actually about performance invisible. Where there's a before and after that issued in this that issues on the map and you never forget it exactly. And that's where that's where. I wanna go next because that even though it i guess you started in two thousand eight on it. It it for reasons. I'm gonna ask you to talk about took several years. There wasn't great interest in the industry. I guess among amongst financiers to have a film about sexual assault in the military. Which was something that i was brought onto your radar by this salon article. I guess you guys can tell that story but essentially there whereas now every it feels like the whole world is talking about sexual abuse in one way or another every day. This is not even a decade ago and there was you guys ended up having to essentially self finance that right one hundred percent. It was the third rail we were told by distributors. We were turned down. And at that point kirti had been nominated for an oscar and and we had. I had you know we'd have done outrage on. Hbo i've been. I had a. We had a fairly successful track record. Has documentarian could not get a penny. We were told. No one wants to hear women's stories. No one wants your stories about rape and no one's certainly wants your stories about women raped in the military. That was like that's a direct quote from a very prominent distributor. And so we just went around ourselves kirby to camera. I did the interviews. We drove around the country. Many of those we had thought we'll get funding and then we'll and we and we didn't we those those. Kirby's shot interviews ended up pretty much you know the the the heart and spine of the phone and even walking into sundance. Someone yeltsin. Nancy will end of you listening. You know she's like an amazing amazing publicist. I remember this. Walking drivers premier remember another prominent publicist yelled to her. Good luck with the rape film. I feel for you pal. And i swear to. You know it's easy now like we're like wait. Why but no. And it will open at sundance. It was like a su-nam was like un believable well and so that one wins the audience award. It's unanswered gets an oscar nomination of its own. So now you're in the club as well at that point. Amy and i guess. I think it seems like the last thing there were a few. There are few legacies of that one rate first of all there were pretty immediate changes as a result of i think then secretary of defense was boorda. Leon panetta seeing it at that point right. So i want to ask about that may be curvy if you wanna just catch us up on the immediate impact but then also how the the roadshow aspect of just having to sell these phones led to the next one which was the hunting ground. Yes yeah so. I think leon panetta saw the film within a couple of weeks few weeks after it premiered sundance and shortly thereafter. I can i can. I jump in. Actually 'cause that was actually different so what happened was it opens and like standing ovations people in tears. Someone grabs me jearl. Drexel's grozny says you have to find corey and come out into the lobby. Corey was our lead heroine and out in the lobby gerald pulls over this other person who will remain unnamed but was a prominent big guy. You know how you know how sundance is like you know like the one like the davos of like a everybody's somebody so this guy in the audience was a super big deal on a lovely lovely manage. She pulls him over and pulls them to corey and he looks. According to says your. I'll take care of you like your operation. it's done. I don't know what other film does that. I still have thinking about it. And i'm like what and of course like why he's like because she had had. She had been physically assaulted and sexually assaulted her. As a result she could only baby food. You know her jaw was broken and she couldn't And the military wouldn't and so. I knew we knew like and then the next day. Kirby do that junk at sundance and you need the reporters. You've done it right and so we're sitting there and we're doing the interview after interview. And trina who's also in our film came a subject sometimes join you and in the middle of one interview. Trina comes in and sits down and a male reporter started actively crying like ptsd reaction just seeing her. So i was like okay. We've done something something's different and it was like the talk of sundance and suddenly everyone wants a ticket and all that so i went around because it's the davos and started just asking anybody like what do we need to do. We have this film. What do we need to change things and everybody said well you can you can grass roots this till the cows come home. You can many but seven people really need to see it any. That's it you know the the the joint chiefs abacha and panetta so next screening this pre like when impact now impacts the thing but i said to anyone at the screen asset. If you like this movie afterwards f- lacuna give me your give us your email. We passed a clipboard around and we collected all the emails and then post post sundance. I sent an email out to all those names. And i said hi any here and i went on wicky and i downloaded the five joint chiefs and i said here's the guys running our military. If do any of you know them. Do your kids play basketball with their kids. You know are. Are you related. If so give me a call. I have a favor to ask and two weeks later. My cell phone rings woman says amy. My sister-in-law was at your screening of invisible or. She says you're a nice lady. I'm friends with sheila. Sheila sheila's mary to george. George runs the army. What do you want for station. And i said all i want is for sheila to watch the movie by said nothing else. Do you feel comfortable making that. Ask and and i said but i can't send it to her. She has to watch it in person. Because i have to make sure she watches it. I didn't want to you know. And and she said yeah she's a big girl. And i'm close and i'll ask her and she she asked. She called me a day later and said i asked sheila sheila cetera. She'll watch your movie. Here's her number. And i called. Sheila and i said you know fly you anywhere to meet and she said george and ira in florida. Be back in dc and two weeks. If you find a place all come see it. And kirby and i found a nonprofit to screen it in we flew out and she shows up with george so this is like just weeks later. She shows up with george with her. She did have told us that he it was running the german joint. No he wasn't chairman. He's the army's one well and and i was like. Oh my god. So i ran down to the front desk. The reception was a nonprofit closed. I said what you do me a favor. Will you run up and sit in the room with them. Because we consider beyond that. I might never hear from them again. I know what they're saying. And just pretend that you're fixing the projector you just have in there. And she said sure so she did and she came out halfway incentives going really well she was crying talking drought and then we walked in afterwards and they said you guys want to go to dinner and we said sure and we went to dinner and they endured said so. We're super moved in. He said this was incredible. He said in ten years of being in the military in twenty years of running it. I know more about this issue in the last ninety minutes i learned more about this than i ever learned in any briefing paper. He said so. What's your ask. And i said same thing i said i have one thing. I want marty dempsey. Who was the chair of the joint chiefs Yeah i said. I want him to watch it. I said you feel comfortable making that. Ask and he said to me he said well. Will you write the talking points which to this day. I find hilarious like writing talking now for the head of the yet and so curfew. Yeah we went back to our where we were staying on dupont circle and wrote this thing email. I sent it to george. I waited. I didn't hear back and two days later. I called him because he gives me his cell. And i said did you. Did you send the email to mardi. And he said amy she'll. I were so moved by your movie that we took mardian john out to dinner last night and he's going to watch your movie and honestly all of them watched it about six months later. I got a crazy blocked call on my phone at six. Am and and they're like. This is the pentagon we want to know. If you screen your film like yeah. I hang up until i was that a weird dream and i call credit that you're gonna kill me. Some block number called. They said there the pentagon i said. Yeah like talking tongues and so he's so then we find out later though. Actually what happened was the head of the air force join the airforce had a screening in the pentagon where he flew in all the wing. Commander's the invisible war. That was the permission they are asking for. And at the end of the screening to wing commander stood up and said this was my experiences. Well river running david women. Yeah and then the other. I wanted just now give a shout out to john newsome because this is the panetta part so bat was chasing the obamas got close could not get. It got like a fundraiser funder. Who'd seen it. You know it was like this game of tag now could not. So then jon newsome calls me. She's at the white entity new. Like on this mannequin quest. And she calls me. She's at the white house. Correspondents dinner that used to so she's there and she's like any. I'm at a table with panetta. What do i do. And i'm like oh my god john you tell him yes to watch movie who executive produced okay. Will you do that. And she's like dude it's on and so she asked him. She went up to him and said i did this movie. Would you mind watching it. And can you get it to me. I'll watch it on air force one and that's how that happened. So oh god for now. It was like this old girl slow network thing like crazy and yeah not just that they watched it. It's that panetta then enacted a bunch actual. I believe meaningful changes right. Yeah and i got a credit. Kirby i can i tell them i mean. Are you all board. I have to tell a story about okay. So this is where now. Okay it kirby's genius so when we were making that film we do we not only like get our subject stellar stories with them like like the secret sauce of what we do is we. We tell you a story like and you're really absorbed and we have these great characters but then we feed you all this information right then you like. He don't even know like a magic trick. And you come out like you're smarter. You're enlightened but you're also moved you give a damn you know so. It's like so when we're doing that analysis of this issue. We kept asking experts. What's the answer. What's the fix and they're all like law. And kirby's like i think the only fixes to take adjudication outside the chain of command because then there can't be a conflict of interest if your commander rapes you. But there's a outside body completely independent much better chance of someone caring giving a damn than if it's within the hen house or the fox house or whatever it is and so every time we said that i was in those meetings with top analysts and former pentagon people and i we had a navy seal that meta through a friend like oh no never will happen. No no no. You can't put that in your movie not never do that. That's impossible. you don't understand unitary cohesion. You have to. The commander has to be all powerful all knowing yet at and curb is like you know at the you know we gotta do this. We got to put this in our film that bats what it is and cut to dome comes out two days later. It's common wisdom. We gotta take it up the chain of command. I swear to god so that's also instructive anyone. Making movies like don't be cowed by common wisdom. Like if you have a you see a through line suggested because the impossible becomes the obvious and You know it's you know. Our consciousness can shift. So kirby can you connect the dots between how the invisible war leads I believe quite directly to the hunting ground Yes i mean. We started to show the film on college campuses you know almost immediately and And then we started over the ness. I don't know six nine months. Maybe we started getting emails. Actual letters calls bat. This was happening on college. Campuses to and And we were actually like at that when we were like. We don't want to make another film about sexual assault you know we don't we don't wanna to categorized strive young. We want to move somewhere else and and but it just kept we just getting this and so then we said okay. We have to look into it. And i mean i. At the time i remember thinking it can't be as bad as in the military and then having i remember once having a really know with an activist on one of the campuses having railing in-depth conversation and you know it was it was and so Advantage point We we're working on something else but we decided we really have to make. This is sort of a repeat of what was going on in the military. This is another huge institution and in some ways could even be more influential. Because you're dealing with people who you know obviously going to be leaders and parents oftentimes are very powerful and it could. It can help change the culture so yeah so that's That's how we have been and we did that as well. And one of the things. I learned because we made a number of films and sexual assault is actually going back into the same subject. I think i knew. I thought i knew Sexual assault. it wasn't entirely deeper education. That i got when i made hunting brown. And it's the same thing happened again when we date on the record and and even allenby pharaoh every time you go deeper because you're dealing with the different subject matter but you're actually you. You're starting from a place of knowledge already and so it's been a very rich experience to you. Know really pursue something over decades and also does to films bear witness to the power of testimony because it was students watching visible war. That said oh. I maybe i can speak to. It's amazing like at any time. We sat down with. I asked to one hundred number. You're talking to us and there was a war. That was incredible to me that was so instructive. It wasn't like a small-scale thing we're talking about hundreds of students at dozens of schools where not necessarily granted easy access right. You guys have to you kind of depended on the students to to diy in their own way right now. absolutely Was was interesting as we shooting right beginning. Shoot right at the beginning of the student movement. And i just want to add to what amy said is that they saw you know. I think they saw invisible war in that. Became like a model like that. You know this already become you know there have been multiple congressional hearings around and everything and they saw that this that people were listening in another area and they could be they had You know you know they thought perhaps we can change our up into that point. I think it was very hard for people to imagine that kind of change. I think that's why you saw the student movement takeoff so aggressively. I mean it was kind of shocking. Really that people were just right up against the school is still was slapping down and they were coming back. It was very personal. They were really trying to damage. The school's reputation discussed the attempt to the school to protect their reputation. And i think they were energized by by the invisible war and empowered you know and they also more to curb his brilliance. Is that you know it's not just these anti what we also do is we. Don't just tell you these stories. We we have show you that there's a problem. A personal assault is actually part of a cultural complicit cultural context that allows it to occur with this kind of frequency Unity and no one had done that analysis before. And i think what the that's what i think kirby was saying that they only empower them to tell their stories and be like oh but they could recognize what was happening and recognize that it was happening not just to them but to others and recognize that it. Was you know the the cancer was embedded in a whole institutional system and it wasn't just a rare unique one off and i think that you know that was really empowering and shifted provoked a consciousness shift. People had done it. People had made that analysis they just. It hadn't been done in documentary form quite that way. I think that. I mean the thing about documentaries. You're able to convey this. Incredibly powerful emotional experience in the subjects at the same time is amy was saying create an analysis in an overview and that bat sort of that sort of merges. Together you know gets welded together in just can hit on is very powerful in that. I think that's what goes in those two films did is they they started. You know film on an started realizing oh this is this is not. This is these. Aren't one off. This is stomach inside. I guess that between the hunting ground in your next film. Obviously something very significant happened in our society which was the outbreak of the whole may to movement downfall of sparked by the downfall of harvey weinstein. And i i want to note how just talk about that for a minute before we go onto on the record and the other stuff. You've you've done. Because i mean this again. It was something that i would have been unimaginable to any of us. But particularly you guys were dealing in this arena and there just wasn't interested in So question is when did you. First hear about harvey weinstein being sexually abusive guy. Was it when we all picked up the new logged onto the new york times that day in two thousand seventeen or had there been rumblings about this in either in your film circles or sexual assault you know survivor. Community are just. What was your indication that first indication that this guy was was a problem beyond being a pain in the ass in a bully who. I know you've probably discovered that. In the course of having having his offshoot distribute hunting ground. But i mean he's a he's we. Everybody knew he was a bully. I don't know that everybody. I do know that. Not everybody knew he was going around raping people. Okay there's too crazy stories. One is invisible. War gets for oscar. There's an academy luncheon. I get seated at a table. And i'm you know. Excuse exciting. sit there. I sit down and you look at your name card. And who's who's my neck was on my right harvey weinstein and he's late. This is a two thousand twelve so it's everything kind of you know he's there. Hey comes in looks at me. Looks me up and down and says quote unquote you're not katie couric. And he was really upset. And i look across because katie is sitting across. Like i'm supposed to be sitting with katie. And so then i'm like mortified so i get up i title over to katie and i go. Harvey wants to sit next to switch seats and she's like and so i go back. So that was my first and last harvey in in person encounter cut to sundance has a woman's it. Dan did. I don't know if it's still does. It had a woman's dinner. And i think i was there for. Oh yeah. I was there to the next. After i was on the jury. Sorry so i'm on the jury at sundance. The year after hunting ground comes out okay. And i'm at the dotted. The woman's dinner sit down next to me. Is rose mcgowan. It's twenty fifteen. We introduce yourself each other twenty sixteen twenty sixteen. We introduced each other ourselves. Because everyone's under an. I honestly didn't know she was and she said i did hunting inches. Like oh my god. I have a story for you. She tells me a whole story. I go. Oh my god i call kirby wholesale remaining everything that happened with rv. Yeah before this has ever come out. And i said would you go on the record. She said yes she said. I'm writing a book. i would talk to you. I go back to kirby. And i'm like you know i'm texting. Rose get her number. And all that. And i'm like oh my god. You won't believe this then And i can say this now. But i couldn't at the time and newsome had had harvey incident. She's a friend. she's remembered jen. From the panetta story. I partner in our state right now in california. Go up and jan but So she she. I called her. 'cause i remembered that. And she says. Call ashley judd. And we called. Actually she saw get in. Touch with ashley because ashley'll talk so back. Then we were in touch with ashley and rose both had said they would go on the record and we started pitching a hollywood assault film and we could not get traction and then we got green lit on but we kept it on our back so we were well aware and then we had doing research and it was kind of this open secret there was not like and and that means you know but so yes so we were kind of tracking the story but weren't weren't actively moving on it and then needs to happen and it was lake we. I never thought i'd see that in our lifetime. We i was bowled over and kirby just seeing that you know sort of after harvey. I'm not trying to make light in any way but it's it was like people were dropping like flies. I mean you were finding so many there was so much this and there were actually was actually accountability now by yeah no it was. It was as amy said. I mean we never. We never expected to see that I do. I do this kind of want to go back in particular to the students in in the hunting ground because i actually think they'd played a very significant role in me to happening and that was lady gaga song in the hunting ground was nominated for an oscar. His part her sort of performance at the oscar. She i think thanks to amy's insistence. Actually i mean. I think amy said she. She had asked for some survivors. Onstage story probably better introduced by joe biden right introduced by providing and right right and insisted that. If you're going to do it do it. Big and do with fifty ryan and she had to push the guy got team to accept this but you know she was successful. So there were fifteen survivor's most from our film but some otherwise onstage when she made this performance when she saying at the oscars and it was a complete showstopper I think it was a high point of of that of that ceremony and But what happened there. I think because you gonna look around and you could see stars crying. Even men you know really very moved. Will kirby i just want to interject iron. I was there. And i was sitting one row above where i'm sure you guys were in the good seats but what it allowed me to do was see that when that performance ended and they cut to commercial and each of these survivors now walks down stage to the ground level and passes the front row of everybody at the oscars brie larson who had played. Who was nominated and would win that night for playing a sexual assault survivor in room. Was i think crying and hugging every one of them out h. One of them went by so it was a very even after cuts. Commercial was a powerful thing. Brie larson kate capshaw steven spielberg were behind me. And they were like. Oh my god you know. And it was incredible. That was another seismic moment. People were on their feet standing ovation howling and in tears from goggles. Performance standing with fifty survivors all holding hands. And what's interesting fund. Interesting crazy behind. The scenes thing is is that a one of the survivors got was an artist and tattooed like a symbol on her wrist. Income like this was important like says you always remember the academy awards and she showed. The drying energy passed it around the head rehearsal and then that night all of them went and got it and then showed it to gaga. And she got it. Oh my gosh not incredible. She is just you know so anyways. But i do want to. Underline kirby set i just as i think that invisible war those men and women the military who is so courageous to speak and for no gain or glory and at great personal risk. In fact someone in our film no longer exists. She had to change her name. If you can imagine lead chill students to be inspired and speak out and helped fuel. The student movement on campuses led to gogga gifting a song and doing that. Knockout performance led to the standing ovation at the oscars led to hollywood. Maybe thinking about it. Okay if these kids are speaking out. If god is singing maybe i have some actually leads to next question which i'm really interested to hear you. Guys what your take is on this. Because certainly those were incremental moments the military having technolog- sexual assaults college campuses are being made not having to you guys were instrumental of course in in those things happening but would the whole metoo movement have boiled over into the in the way that it didn't two thousand seventeen had a guy who had been on tape bragging about grabbing women by the posse. Forgive the expression. Had he not been elected president earlier that same year and i would think there's a sense of powerlessness and outrage. That a lot of people felt not just on terms of the political implications of that. But that but again coming back to you know this is a guy who. There's not much doubt that there were sexual sexual misconduct on his part in numerous different times and places in ways i mean there's so he's had lawsuits and all the so the had he not. I mean if there's one silver lining in in hillary clinton not winning was it that donald trump push that over. Do you think it. It made a difference i do. It definitely caused an outrage. I mean when win somebody running for president than becoming president who is essentially admitted to a sexual assaults. Right and and there's absolutely no consequence. i mean. I think you know the the culture had been talking about this. You should now for three or four years and it seemed like it was going in the right direction and then suddenly the most powerful person in the country can get away with admitting and nothing happens yes. I think that really helped prime prime foods and once you guys you know me two broke out you. You've been thinking about hollywood centric or entertainment industry project and that is sort of what leads to on the record. Yeah then a- then metoo happens unlike reading the headlines going an onion article or new york times article like you know like a man is accused of assault man steps down. I'm like i like my head's like cognitive dissonance. And like what and our cell phone start. Exploding and people are like. Hey remember that assault you guys like walking around talking about what about running back in the field so we got money immediately from a funder like just start and i said yeah. Let's just start collecting stories and see what happens and two things came out about a series came out of it which now defunct but that's for another cast and then on the we we had rented a house in brooklyn and did five interviews today with just random women who had spoken out. Post me too. And one of those women was drew dixon. And one of those rooms dylan farrow and both those interviews. I mean drew led to on the record and and dylan led to a allenby farrow. And that's you know. That's exemplary of how i always say. Our films find us. We don't find them and it's absolutely true. I mean we don't again. I don't unlike other filmmakers you know or or some other films. We don't want to adopt books. We all do things. Typically that happened in the past we do. You know we're in it or in the mix like we're in it in the moment and the president trying to figure it out and find it as we deal at will and so on the record which comes out on twenty twenty this. I guess the appeal in a way of the the the the what lead you taking the angle. That you took care was that. Here's a person who you can follow as they are debating whether or not to come forward like this is now something that clearly. A lot of people in society are grappling with. Here's a way to a rare opportunity to actually you know chronicle that process. No absolutely it was. I mean we. We had witnessed many many times. We had talked to people before they spoke to anybody else. I'm certainly any press or anything about about sexual assault and had been with them as they sometimes took months and months to say i will be a part of your film and we knew how how difficult it was how profound it was how important it was And and And so when we encountered drew Who was going through this process. We felt this is a different way to tell the story ryan. This is people are starting to understand what sexual assault is in with consequences but we wanted to talk about. You know in a way watching somebody decided to be a hero. Really what it comes down to so you know. We started filming her before. She made the decision to come forward in the new york. Times and above russell simmons and And then we continue to follow her afterwards too because Obviously this changes people's lives. I mean they're whistle blowers you know. Everybody knows that whistleblowers lives are up ended in. There's all kinds of things they have to go with. show back created. This incredibly dramatic are and And we felt this is an opportunity to focus primarily on one story this time we we kind of felt that post me to post are films that people understood the systemic issue and now we wanted to take it back into a different direction. So can i ask you about. There's there were two things that i think you encountered here that you had never really had to deal with before one of them. Is that you guys as as white. Filmmakers are now having a you know in your tackling story that was hip hop community is largely black. And you were having to gain trust than access and all of that so just what that aspect of it entailed but then also i am sorry to bring it up because i know it wasn't fun but just what happened ten days before you premiere at sundance could not have been a i mean i get. It's own probably traumatic. So i guess just so that people can see that even after oscar nominations and emmys and success and whatever that just an idea of some of the stuff you as filmmakers run up against in in those two points if you can maybe amy if you wanna start off yeah i mean god where to start. I mean you know what you said. Even after what i do want to say. Is that every project. We do is grueling and difficult and insecure. Which is interesting even after all of our success. We do kind of hot topics we take on big institutions powerful people as we all know the one percent all knows each other. I'll vacations together. Those gives all play basketball together. So you're really not you know. We're not getting a lot of high fives when we walk into rooms. Because you don't know who knows who and who we've pissed off so it's always kind of honestly and i'm not exaggerating hyperbolic. It's always a tightrope walk. It's not ever assure thing we're going to get funded honest to god no matter what just because of that. You know you've gotta be aware about careful and then be like you know. It's a nonstop minefield. Just a nonstop. Minefield and i guess you know on the record. Just play that out in you know in spades large. It was about what's interesting about that on those about the problematic and you know the the incredible levels of complexity and quadruple binds that black women and women women of color but in particular black women find themselves when they're victims of crimes. Because not only like. I mean just like a. It's hard enough to like. Stay these crimes but you're going to go as a black woman to the police. They oh you know your skin color is not going to matter. Well that's a nonstarter you're going to black woman and go to police in denounce another black man. Well that doesn't feel real great. Because you know the justice department's not so cool with black men and you want to just add to that you know. Add to that burden and you also want to add to that. Mythology and stereotype of the black male predator like the levels of complexity and horror and hardship were manifold and we felt compelled to drew this on our radar at all. That's what kirby also said earlier about learning each time like holy. Oh my god. Like i thought i knew i had no idea. So she kind of you know in that interviews kind of schooled me schooled. Us you know was mine wide open and then we said hey you know you're going through this really interesting complicated time. What if we followed you and she was like i'm kind of scared and i thought i know i got it and because of our experience and i said look. Don't sign a release you know and i don't want to interfere with your process. And just if we can we can if we can't we can't but don't sign a release just for listeners. Means that you can film all you want. But it's not going anywhere unless and until she's comfortable enough to so she said okay as long as that's fine and fair and there's no pressure and i said really there's pressure we'll just follow you through this process and whether you go to the neurons and you don't it's all on you and that's the right decision for you and i support you one hundred percent and whether you go to the and then he say look. Don't use the footage one hundred percent like we're just here. I don't want to add. You've gone through enough like you don't need. I want to sleep at night knowing. I major life more miserable and we really walk that walk and it was very patient nkombe and you can talk to drew and it was a really beautiful experience but also in the course of making it and as she opened up her contacts and she opened up this world we also knew. Of course. we're not going to be a pori and blind spots and we are not the right exactly the right team. So we sort of pitch this to oprah winfrey and she was like and to make a really long complicates very super short. She watched a rough cut which he was reluctant to watch. 'cause she had a different vision and i said please watch this. I think this story so amazing so rich. And she watched it and she called me and said you know. Thank you for making me watch this. This is amazing. I am all in. I see it now. Yes let's do it your way let. Let's do a feature film. And i want to be you know a the lead executive producer on it and bring in my team and all that so i just want also make sure we had no again as our films find us. We were just okay. Let's see let's see us having but there was no thought in our mind ever that we'd be releasing this as a white fillet team without collaborating at some level with persons of color quite intimately and also. I want to say the subjects. Of course kiernan. Mayo and hubbard and doctor. Kimberly crenshaw Doctor joe morgan. I mean they were really formative with us. As was drew as was oprah was team on and on and on i mean it was it was all hands on deck will until the just to put a button on that i mean what happened ten days before the premiere and twenty minutes before a press release goes out is that she withdrew her involvement and supposedly. It was because she felt. The film wasn't ready for sundance and wanted to do more changes. Or whatever which i gather was news to you guys And so i guess it just begs the question and this you know she can still be a amazing philanthropist than great personnel of that a great humanitarian. But at the at the in this situation do you think that she just kind of caved to pressure from either russell simmons or others in that community of of hip hop community. Well i can just say that. We were working with very intimately on the film from june to september intimately with her team. They watch multiple cuts that gave notes extensive notes multiple screenings. They were so thrilled with it. That was their suggestion. Go to sundance. They had apple right the sundance application. They put out a press release prior to sundance his announcement to put their stamp on it. They're imprimatur what is it. We were so proud. We have this amazing villa blah blah. The next day sundance announces. They make the mistake. We just wanted to say a film that looks into the world of hip hop. I mean we've been down this road. We know you have to be super careful until you until you break news. You're quiet sundance. did the press. We wanted which was a hip but they included a picture of drew which an everyone immediately could do the math. She'd been in the new york times. And you know within seconds. I do know oprah's phone was ringing and i do know them. You know everything everything. Everything changed and all i can say about it is. It was a phenomenal film. Would not be what it was. It would not have been made without oprah it would not have made without her wisdom and insight and vision and input throughout and her blessings throughout so so grateful to all of that and the irony of it is the film is very much about how black women continually come up against minefields that impede them from speaking in ways that white women and men don't and that are just racially coded and You know and it's just instructive that even with this film. We saw an meta way that kind of getting played out in its release and just a quick side. No we she years a few years ago was on this podcast and you see today. We go into somebody's personal history before we get into the work and i mean. She was very candid about the fact that she herself has been terribly subjected to sexual abuse from within and outside of her family. So i mean it's obviously a subject that she cares about but this was a bizarre twist in any way thankfully it ended well where she and apple or hbo. Max comes in. It's sad a very nice life. From what i can see but all right this brings us finally to the latest of your great collaborations and one that you've you guys are co directors on and that is ellen v farrow and. I believe. It's your first docu series. Ever right for either of you right correct. Yes it was. It was interesting. I mean in many ways Yeah actually a one long. So i mean we. We can help but Treating everything we do with just a great deal of care we so it was really. We were even. It's more it's more like a four and a half hour film. We did structure and of course so that it have cliffhangers. It would take the audience because it was on. Hbo and not feel mass. Nowadays on hbo max so it was dropping once a week so we had to keep the audience with us but It was yes it was our first. And it's and we like. I said we treated it like we treat it all themselves but was that that choice to do it in that format. Was that because there's just way too much for a feature-length film or was there something else that appealed to you about that format know. Obviously that format has sort of really risen and is it. You know i think in many ways is has overtaken documentary features for the most part. I mean it's you know things change. Maybe you'll go back so we wanted to try to work in this format. Certainly and we found this was the perfect. Turn the do it because like you said there was so the story was so complex and it spun off so many other issues and And we just did not think that ninety minutes one hundred twenty minutes you're going to be able to contain it and so yeah. that was. Yeah yeah i. If i can just add differs not only this incredibly complicated micro story of a family their trauma. But it's what we always do remember. I said it's about some personal narrative but then there's all this other information you know. We wanted to go into the artist. We wanted to go into grooming. We wanted to go into incest not to go into the family courts. We want to go into celebrity impunity. Pr complicity you. know just too much. It was too much you know and we grant also we had this treasure trove. Talk about films. Finding you like who knew that he has this amateur cine asked with like why it say what like you know. We don't need to tell you you watch you watch what he with the family and you make your own. You tell the way that that even came about though is that you said dylan you'd interviewed around the time you were doing a true but that was that was it. Did she come in thinking. This may be part of a that earlier talker. You just didn't know or was it always clear you're going to do something separate specific about allenby ferro. I asked because this thing was kept pretty. Well you guys did a good job of keeping a secret about this now and now a new not now my parents my patty are now and it. But we're secret about everything. But no no idea the pitch we went to drew and and dylan and everyone was with simply looking into a b making a series about women. Post me to perhaps in different industries. Perhaps hollywood perhaps music. We're interviewing women from silicon valley restaurant workers so it was no so we didn't know ourselves they didn't know dylan no idea and we didn't know but she came in she. Did this interview of blew us away. I remember going wait. Like i'm fifty eight so i was in my early twenties or i don't know i'm bad at math but i was definitely of the demographic where i compose. I was inhaling news at the time when this was transpiring and not at all in a critical way was like oh okay. he's exonerated. Okay like that. To me was the gospel. Because it's what was the echo chamber and repeated calculatedly. I only learned decade tighter and fallaciously. But so she's telling me all this stuff and like whoa. Whoa whoa and then. I called kirby and called amy hertie are amazing investigative producer. And she ended up at our co-creator on av farrow and she was like let me add this baby like i. You know she's like a tour de force investigator she's like. I think there's so much there. Like if like take the. Let's look at that. And then also sidebar for years people have been coming up to us and please make a foam on incest. Just like i said that. Just like curry said students came up and said police megaphone what. What's going on our campus. So that was always rattling back. My head and amy put it together. Because what if this is your you guys instead. I investigate this. Because you know what you're saying. But dylan said i do fit. You know there's a lot more there that we just don't know about. Let's try and find it. And then she said. What if it's the incest. You guys have always felt and i was like. Oh that's interesting so that was done and then we just didn't know it was just like an open tab. Go go explore. Come back and tell us what you find and she just kept just kept digging and finding and finding court documents and finding tapes and finding videotapes. And that's that's how that now we thought. Oh okay we. You know as filmmakers have a kind of a very unique collaboration because amy hurt his journalists and you know she is. She was a producer on the hunting ground. Us producing another film. We can talk about the bleeding edge and soci- as we have worked with her on a number of projects and and since is instead we are. We're looking. We're not looking to cover stories that are been covered. We have find stories. And so i think we've found one of the best certainly in my opinion the best journalists in the field of sexual salting the country. I mean i have no doubt and that has really allowed us to get deeper into these Stories than i think we could've just filmmakers so It was it was her vision and her experience in investigations which she saw when she heard dylan's story started looking into what she said. There is so much here. I can get into this. No one else had and she was just confident. Just give me time and sure enough. I mean she just going deeper and deeper and deeper. That allowed allowed us to to tell really to tell the complete story well and you can dig up or she can dig up the everything that exists. But that doesn't mean you're going to get the participation of not just dylan but the other key players especially mia so what was that process arduous and difficult dairy that look like a green my god. Yeah it was really difficult but for fair reasons again. Dairy does reluctant for pedagogical reasons. Right like you know. This shouldn't be about nine now. And they were. They were resistant for you. Know they've been through what what good had ever come right from from them. Speaking or being public. I what good right nothing but like horror abuse punishment you know magnified exponentially so no thank you. So i mean and you know and they're just traumatized so you have all that to deal with so it's really actually was a testament to to their courage and faith and you know their ability to see. What are you know. I think one thing that has helped people have God you know that be able to do that. Leap faith with us is seeing our other work seeing what it's done and like so it's like they know not jerry springer right now like we're to like yeah so i think yeah so. It was extremely difficult. There's there's a funny story in that. So reluctant neo was that she said no for like a good year or more. Curbs my fact checker. So it's probably more than a year. She said no. And we just thought we weren't gonna get the interview and then finally she said yes because dylan astor. Dylan's said mob. They're really doing amazing work. They're really they're talking to the social worker that no one could found you know they're talking to the x. Nannies tracking down in london. Like trust me these people. aren't you know. And so she agreed and she's told her she's only agreeing. 'cause dylan asked her to and so we immediately want. She said yes flew out rented a house nearby. You don't want us on our property. And she shows up for the interview and she's wearing a black tattered. She lives out in the country on. This is a black tattered sweatshirt. Like you know that's it and we always tell people. Please bring different close. We don't have a stylus but bring a couple of different things. We'll see what looks good. And i knew that she would head for the hills if i said anything and she bring anything and i'm like okay. I'm between a rock and hard place. I got a really nice to this person. Sit down and talk with them because this is my only chance. But i'll never be able to use this because people won't be able to pack this. Look you know might might be okay for your kitchen. But not really for and so i start talking and then go to her and i just had to stop and i said how do you feel about a and i was wearing a blouse. I was trying to look professional. Unusually look kind of like her and like leisure suit athletes or so she said what do you think like. I just think it would lighten your look a little. I don't know what i said. I was trying to act like a total jerk. She was not happy. She said our aid and she went and put my glass on eibar shirt from a crew member. We did the interview. She kept her under her slack. Sweatshirts of anyone watches. You get back check me. She's wearing a black t-shirt and she wouldn't take it off so you have a black t. Shirt under a base. Which by the way is now her twitter picture retirement. All i know is that she did if she's not but that's how unhappy and reluctant to look grade torture but the funny thing is is that i found out only once this thing it locked and we'd released it that from that day on. She referred to meet amy as the silk blouse lady. Well and obviously the report grew enough to. i mean. we're seeing things in it. I'm assuming most people listening to this have seen the series. But if not just some some teaser. Highlights guys have the video of dylan at seven right talking about which which we've all been hearing about forever but never being able to make up our own minds is she or is she. Not sounding coached is the you know what is this like that was tremendous. There's all kinds of. I mean as you say. All of me is home footage. Obviously the question comes up and so we'll just quickly address this. You guys did approach what he sunni. And moses farrow the one of the adopted children they decline of our bay but they were offered the opportunity to participate. You note in the film are excuse me in the series that would he's always had this. You know quite high level pr representation. Which sort of set the set. The tone of the conversation for many years. Although i do wanna know if you guys have ever seen these but i would say within the certainly in the later latter day would either the communications that we received from that publicist were not terribly impressive. The propaganda post. We're getting you know you would think somebody would at least bcc all the other people that are receiving the talking points or the article links. Or whatever and i can tell you instead. It was causing all kinds of problems. Because i was receiving these and then every time one person doesn't realize they're responding right to to the entire email. It was one of those like grandmother things where they accidentally reply all. And you're just endlessly sucked into the back and forth about woody allen stuff so that was funny but So i guess though. I do want to ask if woody had agreed to take. Just let's just say one question from you guys. What for each of you would. You have most wanted to ask him. Well i would want to ask him In a very detailed way to describe what he was doing for that kind of key thirty minute period because he has given multiple answers that are not that have conflicted in that. The police who investigated noted that there were problems and his response. He's a vacated answering that again and again and again and Since we by the time we would have interviewed him. We would be very clear on what the timetable of what happened is based on so many other witnesses that were there. I don't know if he would have an answer. I think he would avoid the question. Wisely as it might have an attorney. They're telling do daime other. So many. I mean i can't just say like it would have to be like it would be a whole process. You know it'd be actually an interesting conversation. That i do want to stay with the offer still on the table and for does that think is voice isn't present. Please know that it's his audiobook that we use with him reading it. Forget the whole controversy about. Who's who's saying who's words with what inflection. So you have his account and you can go read it yourself We also do have all his press conferences and his voice throughout. So you know. I i feel that we we do kind of i do kind of know his side of it but i would love. I would love and still stand by that. I'm happy to talk to him any time. Under any conditions you know well you know and and and and have a real i. There's there's it's not just one question. There's a whole a whole lot of them. That would really be helpful to heck to her ready to hear more about what he had to say. And just on the flip side of that question. I was thinking you know if if he had i dunno cone as was the right word. But you know if he had if he had stepped up agreed to speak with you what would he would he have said and i went back to. I believe it may have been featured in the series. I forget there was that one that sixty minutes interview that he did years and years and years ago where he raised the question that i want to ask you guys has truly the film world sexual assault. You know experts here he said. Wouldn't it be unusual for a man to become the first time child molester. That far into life and at a moment when he and particularly at a moment when he has already under the microscope for sexual activity with a much older daughter. And i just wonder if you would respond to that. Well what was interesting about that is we. Did a companion podcast. Scott which also your listeners if you liked or loved or interest in albi pharaoh. Please listened to the podcast because we got so much more information on it and and people went. Also i wanna say what you're picking up on. Twitter went nuts over that so you can also go look and see what twitter had a lot to say about what he's grand deflections and what. I found interesting. I interviewed an expert about. I can't say much. I mean an expert. About what do people who are not who are accused. What what's their typical response. If they didn't do it and then they said they say they didn't do it. They don't pivot they. Don't ask a rhetorical question in return. They said that's incredibly interesting. And unique you know and one expert says is 'cause people don't like to lie. It's if you didn't do it. It's not a problem so i didn't do it. And then the other thing. I'll just say that's interesting that an expert said so it's not me. It's an expert oni. They said you know. Amy and she had she said. I interview tons of predators. I interview people that are falsely accused. Says you know what a father says to me of their falsely accused. You know what they immediately say if they really didn't do it she says they say. Oh my god daughter say this. How can i help her. Who did this to her. What should we do. And i was like. Oh yeah that's what i would say to. You know what i mean like. It's so common sense you wouldn't say oh my god my husband's crazy and he's you know right. I mean you at your first. It's her and you know. And they brainwash the child like that so easy. How who listening to. This has a five year old. Like good luck with getting that kids. You like gonna go to the bathroom and the toilet. You're not you're not that they're not that brainwash you know so. It's just that some instructors so those are the things. I'll say about that just to add to that. We also ask an expert at that very question you know. We posed Woody allen's response and and what we learned was that there are people who in a family only assault one child and and because they become You know that and what's interesting about that. Is that protects them right because they can now say. None of the other children ever told that story. This number happened and And we also learned which is very interesting that people often assault winger under stress. And so this is not anomalous in in in these extra told us stories of people who were convicted. Who do things that were incredibly risky. Do their You know their behavior. That would make them most likely to get caught at when they're being most closely watched and so So you know this is something that that is not infrequent infrequently happens. I'm so glad you said that. Kirby i yeah i totally. That is so important that actually yeah it is true. That was i look. We learn that that that it isn't anomalous to just the last one child that often they have type in the other. Just know it's very interesting absolutely and the other thing that people I just wanna get your personal take on. I know it's to some degree address. And maybe in the podcast you get more into this but one of the things. That kind of mystifies me as the moses farrow of it all because just so people know. This is one of the adopted children rate and now a licensed therapist. I don't know if it's psychiatrists. Psychologists are but he's a some. I'm not sure is licensed. I'm not sure we might have double check Okay well all right. I'll i'll yeah so we will definitely do that but i guess what do you make of it. Where he's now the only one of the pharaoh children who saying that the abuse was actually for me right. we just couldn't find corroboration. We were interested. I mean we heard that we were you know disturbed by it and we just could not find everything else. We could find in our films in our series we could find corroboration for but in fact we found the opposite interviewed. Numerous children mia farrow's on and off camera and resoundingly and there were moses could site where there were any any any police reports filed any other alleged incidents and i want to circle back to so we couldn't fact check it. Also you know he he had. When when it was being investigated he and taken exactly the opposite zion and then for years and years and years he had never defended what allen at all. And in fact You know even as his ex wife you know. Sorta spoke to that that So as. Amy said i mean you know he can make this statement. But there's no a and he can offend woody allen and he's right but there's no corroboration for that position and ronan farrow has a pretty good track record of being right about people in these situations. So when you showed this to dylan and mia an ronin or you're able to be in the room and see their reaction or just how did you. How did you find out what they thought about it. While as we do with all our subjects we give them the courtesy of viewing prior to public release so that they're not feel so vulnerable and exposed but they don't have any say beyond that or any input. It's really not a collaboration. I just want to really make that clear to anyone listening. And it was different for each of them. I know that dylan wanted amy hardy on the phone with her. It was it was cova to be on the on the phone. So if i have a question about something i'm seeing are five traumatized or from triggered i can ask you and you can talk me off the tree or you can so. Amy agreed to that mia watched it alone in private. I didn't want an same with ronin. Said send me the link. Gimme a week. I think it was a week window. And i think he thought he when he ended up speaking with us. He had watched it with his partner. John i don't know if anyone else was there. But that's what he told us and You know they didn't have any of fact corrections and that's typically how it's done. I mean i think what i i don't think we usually i don't did we. I don't remember i if invisible war. We sat with our subjects when they watched it actually which was interesting. Because i remember dairy dice out with him. I had to in a room and he sat like this thing next to him and the guy can't he had his hand up like a wall so that i couldn't see his face or anything so angry upset about the whole experience and it was very nerve wracking. But it's all it's always anxious when yeah. It's hard for subjects to watch themselves obviously. Yeah big picture just briefly your thoughts on a couple of things Your personal thoughts on this argument. You know separating the art. I the artists can we do it. Should we do it. In the case of woody allen. Can you watch a woody allen movie. I can yes you know. Obviously he's extremely impressive. Body of work is never been my favorite filmmaker but But in some ways. I feel like having done this. I can you see things you know that you wouldn't otherwise see and i think it's very instructive that way. I could i would. I know but it's not for the reasons you think it's not like out of umbrage it's just out of. I got better things to do my time. I'm not that interested. But i do want the artists because people have asked us that every time i want to. Here's here's the semi short answer. Absolute western culture is littered with horrible people doing incredibly amazing things so we cannot like say. Oh now you know like no and we but but what we can do is when we learn about their horrible things. We can decide not to maybe economically. Support them you know ben. It's a win win. We can get the benefit from their art and their contributions which enlighten us and inspire us and we can punish biography and not support moore actions and not give them more power to commit crimes with impunity by giving them this economic base and also this celebrity base which re as we see you know is super powerful and does act does hypnotize all of us. You know blinds us. So that's where. I draw the line absolutely like i as again to full circle. Philosophy heidegger is way up there. I wouldn't be here talking to you about responsibility and saint fancy words in french and talking about deconstruction without heidegger. Honest to god. The guys like fuck. Nazi concentration camps contradiction. Absolutely what. I ever not read him absolutely not but i'm glad he's dead and i can buy books. That's the so. It's not like it's our conflict. It's not so complicated like you do. You learn has a horrible biography how that inform your viewing of their work. Watch woody allen. Films go interesting. Wow what can we read in here. You know what's it telling us about gender roles and sexuality and grooming themes that may now are popping out because i know this for like have it inform. You know the biography. Don't have it then you don't. i don't like to wear the cancel. You don't need to push away the art you can embrace the art differently and you can also make economic choices differently next. Does it ever worry you in the back here. Had whether it's even just one. Is there any part that says what. If i'm wrong and in this case in this case it would be something one day comes out in exonerates woody allen somehow what would how would that does. Does that thought occurred to you. Oh yeah i mean then occurs to us all the way through making all of our projects. I mean That that is the very first reason we do. This investigation is to get as deep as we can get his clearer picture as we can. And it's not it's because we don't want to accuse of something where the evidence doesn't overwhelming way implicate him or her and so Yeah i mean we just you know. We're we can't talk about our film but we're in a situation where we know this person did this thing but we don't have enough evidence to conclude well due to to. We don't have the overwhelming evidence that we feel like we need so yes. This is the next the next project the next project. Yeah yeah. Yeah and amy your. Is it something that you know. It's terrifying it really is. It's a responsibility and you have to be very very very very careful and we are. You know thank god so far not one fact protection you know. We rarely weekly we. Don't you know if we wanted to make fiction. We do it but we we trade in the truth and the truth doesn't have you know. Then you're you have so we're you know we really really really really really every frame we try and get it out. Some last two What's your personal feeling about how you treat how we let you save and just as an industry look the film industry that we all one way or another apart of if somebody is accused of something but they deny it which is frequently the case rate Even though we know as as you guys often cite ninety two to ninety eight percent of women are telling the truth if they make an accusation of sexual assault that means that there are two percent where it's not doesn't check out ultimately What is the way to handle somebody where there is in terms of professionally. Like i'm trying to think of a specific example where it's not i mean. Many of these sadly have been where they dozens of cases. Come out and kevin spacey or whatever but harvey obviously but let's in an instance where it's essentially a. He said she said should that person continued to be able to continue to work. I can't answer blanket. lay obviously every cases. I gave me a specific case. Like weigh in on my thoughts about it but again just like i said we trade in truth you know. Look for corroboration. Do your homework and you know. Make your assessment on education based on that you know yes you know. Yeah i mean you did your homework. That was great. You actually put it that stat right. I believe kirby fat check us both. That i was really impressed. Because a lot of people don't know that but it's like sexual assault crimes accord with all felonies meaning the rate of false reporting lines with all felonies. Which means you're likely to lie about a sexual assault as you are about at carjacking. So imagine that so. It's pretty statistically small so yes you give testimony a ton of credence but before you actually like double down having real life consequences for that testimony. You look for evidence beyond the testimony to corroborate. But i also wanna say testimony is evidence. But that's for another podcast. So you know. I mean you know what i mean. Like the way in which someone testifies had a sexual assault is different from the way that someone testifies fabricating it. And so that's what. I mean by that The nature of that testimony itself conserve as actually corroborating evidence. Just i mean as to how we encountered. I mean in the in the process of interfering so many people post me to we interviewed. You know quite a few people who would name people in the industry. High prof- up people in the industry who hadn't been named publicly and there was one in particular who two people named this one person and we believe these people but it wasn't enough for us to john forward in do this you know so. I think you're right you. Obviously you know if survivor comes or they're most likely telling the truth. But as you know as filmmakers we have a responsibility to be very careful about the power of our film and and that's an example of someone where would have been very sensational. But we just didn't feel as responsible to do in a case last question. Is you know this is obviously heavy stuff you guys are dealing with. I know amy. You said the curvy kind of by is able to weather it. Maybe with less of a toll it seems. Perhaps it takes on you. You've described and i'd love if you would maybe share with our listeners. The just there are actual physical ramifications for for you so just. Why continue to do this. I think i. I suspect i know the answer. But why subject yourself to this you could. You could probably go and make a romantic comedy and have a lot more fun. But just what keeps you doing it. What's your guests of the answer. I'm curious i at my guess is that you've seen how many people through your other films have had important stories that we're not otherwise maybe gotta get told and so you feel a sense of obligation to continue to try to tell those stories. Is that fair to say. That's a great gas and thank you now. I mean because i was in there. I don't know like we're like i don't you know it's just weird like you do what you do. I hate to like not that interesting. An answer but it is also that once you do this you know you just do feel that obligation you just do or at least i do and i do too. Empathic kirby does it really responsibly. And it ends up like a great combination and nine. I wanna just close by giving kirby major shout. Because i really think this has not been seen her understood in our in the film world at least what other guys doing these kind of films true honestly like walking the walk giving a damn like i mean it's astonishing. It's so anyways. I just want to say that about you. Kirby because much as i love to tease and all these horrible things and podcasts about you. I do really think you're a national treasure. You know you really are. Because i wouldn't have made these stones without you. I couldn't have. And i don't know anyone else who would have made them as well. Thank you thank you very much for that You know. I think film is a very powerful medium and it's And you know and is filmmakers of whatever scripted. Unscripted show documentary. You are trying to have this really intense communication this rich communication with your audience and I think that i think then documentary crew in just a whole form provides an opportunity bright. Because you're already in this reality this uncertainty. I think that's one of the rich things. About documentary has dogma. Instance can't can see the uncertainty the experience of making a film many times in that enriches the film and Viewing experience. But i also think part of what you have to do as a filmmaker as an artist is you have to go into these places that are rich intense powerful uncertain complicated in that allowing you kind of the building blocks to have that communication with guidance. And you know. I think you know all good filmmakers. Do that all good artist do that. is is they they go into an area that's intense rich and complicated and and then they come out and and you know. Have communication and on his concede side. Just you're kind of your obligation to go when you see that to move into that. Well i cannot thank you guys enough for all the fascinating work but also taking so much time. I know it's more than you signed up for. And so thank you for rolling with this and it's great to speak with you guys always thank you around pleasure. This is amazing great questions. Thanks very much for tuning into awards. Chatter we really appreciate taking the time to do that and would really appreciate taking a minute more to subscribe to our podcast on itunes or your podcasts out and to leave us a rating as well if you have any questions comments or concerns you can reach me via twitter at twitter dot com slash. Stop fiber and you can follow all of my coverage between episodes at t. h. dot com slash the race until next time. Thanks for joining us.