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Interview: Mindy Johnson and the Women of Disney, Pt. 1
There is so much noise out there. These days, the news cycle is off the rails, and sometimes the best escape is just putting on some music music taps into our emotions. It inspires us, it helps us to relax and pass the time. So maybe you're in the mood for something new or something nostalgic. Apple music has fifty million songs in it's ad free. Plus if you go to apple music dot com, slash class, you'll get your first three months free, no obligation. Cancel anytime. Try three months of apple, music free at apple, music dot com. Slash class. It's apple music, and it's always uninterrupted. Welcome to stuff you missed in history class from how stuff works dot com. Hello and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly fry and I'm Tracy v Wilson. And today we have an interview. It is an interview that I was actually trying to get for the animated podcast drawn that I did earlier this year, but the timing just did not work out. But thankfully, this person that we're talking to is also a perfect guest for this show. So the person that Holly has interviewed is Mindy Johnson, and she is a creator. She is an author historian, filmmaker and musician, and she came onto my radar when a friend of mine told me about a talk that Mindy gave that she had attended about her recent book which is called ink and paint the women of Walt Disney's animation. The book covers ground that hasn't really been examined before now, and that's what life was like for women at the studio through the years and how so many women were innovating the medium of animation in the United States, but they didn't become household names. The way their male counterparts did in this interview was so difficult. To prep for because this book is really substantial, and there are so many really fantastic bits of information, and I wanted to ask them Indy about every single one of them, but even with a rather brutally pared-down list. She and I still talked for over an hour and a half. So we are actually going to run this interview over two episodes. This is also territory. I think our listeners have asked about before we've had requests for some kind of episodes about women in animation or or women in the world of Disney. So this is a great fit. Yeah. And just as a heads up, if you think this is just a Disney episode Boyer you in first prize because really it has just a lot to do about women in the labor market and how their rights and global things going on at the same time, all interacted with one another. So we'll hop right into it. So it is such a massive book. It is so dense with information, and it really brings to light a lot of subject matter that has never really been explored before to the best of my knowledge in book form. So I'm wondering what that research process was like for you? Well, it involves everything from along late nights and digging into people's closets and going on digging under beds and digging through banker's boxes of material and scrap books, and love letters, and just a whole raft of of things. A lot of phone calling a lot of digging literally and figuratively into these women and their families. And when I first went into the main studio archive, it was a little difficult in that they had select material on various films and we could. Go through Walton Roy's earliest ledgers because initially focusing on the paint James, that was very materials based. But I, when I asked for any information they had on the women and the role that they performed, presumably and ink and paint. I was handed a folder that had five pieces of paper in it. It was a real testament that history is preserved written about archived and documented from a male perspective, and we don't think about women and their participation roles. And when you step back from that and realize that literally two sides have moved civilization forward, both men and women. And yet when we look back at our collective pasture, only seeing half the picture, we only know half of that story and that there were women from the very beginning and in any historical conduct. But we just have never documented that. So in this instance. That's one of the reasons why this book was so lard and I got about eight months into my research. When I initially pitched the idea to my under, we thought we both thought it would be a charming little volume because we, the only narrative we had been told with women, and their roles in animation was essentially the log line of pretty girls who trace in color and I, we thought it would be this charming book about tea cakes, and you know the dating social life than activities that went on. And that would be it and got about eight months into it and said called her and said, I, this massive at epic. These women were at the forefront of so much an I don't if it's bigger than what we thought and I don't know how it and I had to kind of get my head. It just was a real waited feeling of, oh my gosh, this is this is mass. And I kept digging, she just said, okay, deep breath. Keep going little will enlarge the trim size and the page count Cape going. So. It was a very termed and and fortuitous thing. And I'm so grateful that she saw what this was about, and it really has been shifting people's mindset shifting the paradigm that we've labored under for centuries and people are realizing for the century of animation. But even beyond that that you know, we've we've overlooked we've looked past. We've, they've been unseen in business for too long, and it's time for not to change, and it is sort of fascinating to me this. This quest essentially started with five pieces of paper and ended up this really match. But does it cover so much ground if someone is going to thinking they are only getting the story of women in animation, they will be surprised because it covers the history of film and animation. It puts all of those works on a much bigger time line of things that were happening in the world had nothing to do with any sort of entertainment. And I'm wondering why you wanted to put everything in that sort of depth of context. Well, isn't it nice to have your expectations exceeded? Oh, yes. And it was important wore need to convey. It was important to understand the context, the time periods when you get to something like an our newspaper article that comes up at the nineteen thirties where Walt Disney is quoted saying, I don't know why, but for some reason, women don't have the power. Well, in the early nineteen thirties animation was Pratt Paul's and physical comedy and slapstick, and really stemming out upon villain. And there was a lot of physical movement and motion and the perceptions of what where women were in what women could do if they're on not the best point today, imagine how they were in the nineteen thirties. So it was important for me to convey to the reader to place them into a drive through experience of history. Her story rather than a river near look at where we where women have been simply because women have always been there. So it was important to understand. And for me, my question was all right, we'll win. Did women move into the workplace? I found that particularly fascinating and it was important to sort of establish this overarching through line of when we think about it at the time again to Walt Disney. As an example, when he was in Kansas City working on his earliest establishing his lap grams. Another thing women that only have the right to vote for maybe a year or so in nineteen twenty. Women were granted full abilities with the nineteen amendment to boat. So when you place it in that context own? Yeah, it it suddenly is a pretty remarkable arc to realize, and when you realize that we get to the. The nineteen fifties. You have one of the leading artists at Disney studio, a single mother. She was widowed. She had two children. She was the sole breadwinner. She had to get one of her fellow animators to go with her to the Bank to co-sign a loan. So she could get a car. That was the reality for women. Women were not able to have their own Bank accounts on credit cards until we're in the late seventies, and then women could get credit cards in their needs. So when you understand the civil rights movement, the war, how the war impacted thing, the civil rights movement, the feminist movements of the seventies, and we're, we're still working through that. It's then start to make sense. Why? Where at the place where at today, a women because we, we've never tracked that her story and for younger readers especially seems silly, but it's important that they understand where we've come from and where we still have to get to to shift the balance and even things out that that women are still at a very deplorable percentage within the entertainment industry today. And yet when you go back to the very beginning. They were out of sixty to seventy percent with Al. Keep who say Lois Weber Dorothy, ours are Mary Pickford, Mary Francis, Anita loos many of women of violent film which women who established the narrative storytelling, tenant, that we still use today. Women who has damaged visual referencing as filmmakers was very with the wild west, but women were right there and yet for some reason, they're written out of the history book. So this is a way to balance that. I love all of that context because it makes the story seem a little less quaint in a little more weighty, which I really like about it. And one of the other things that I've really enjoyed is there's a section at the beginning of your book where you feature a bunch of different women that all influenced Walt Disney's life in various ways, and there's some really good stories there. Do you have a favorite among those early influencers? Well, I was intrigued and I certainly knew about his grand. Mother and and how she owned, whose grandmother hasn't had influenced for those of us who have been blessed with grandmother's. She really instilled this love of story and narrative and imagination. And for me, it's certainly has been early relatives and educators. And when I think back on the influences that they've had on me as a writer and they'll maker storyteller and educator, they really there have been people in early stages of my life and career. And I think as hopefully listeners are thinking back to people who help that influence on them, and it's an important part of what builds the tapestry of who we are and what we bring forward in our own experiences. Some for me, it was really fascinating to go back and get an understanding of where these seeds were planted in people like Walt. Disney and their impact on how they shaped who they were, the person, and then ultimately their career and their impact on our life. And when you get to like, daisy bec, his his teacher, I love the fact that she made education against two. That's an important part of what I utilize when I'm teaching rather than a half to. So when I think back to the influences that certain educators and relatives and friends and colleagues have had on my life and career, and I'm sure listeners can do the same. There were certain people who stood out and we hold in a special place and I found it fascinating like aletha Reynolds. But when wall establishing his very tiny laugh grams to do, you know it was a strong statement that there was a woman in there as well, and that it wasn't this all male world. And when I in. Looking at this industry through a woman's lens looking for the women. They were there rather than this sort of unconscious bias where we just assume women were not there. We don't even look for that. So that's what's been challenging to get people to sort of wake up. I realize that the very fact that procreation commands that we have women on him throughout our society. Right? Of course, women are there. The numbers may not be as strong, but it's important that we look for them. So I've been doing a lot of speaking to researchers and students studying history and research to actively search actively look for the women in the room because they were there in some capacity and and contributing in some manner. The other thing too is that we don't. Aren't. They said, there's this sort of natural default where we, we just automatically default to the mail. And I think by shifting being more conscious about it and actively seeking out, it's a little more challenging to find women because of name changes and multiple marriages. Or oftentimes they make go by nickname more so than men. It does make it a little more challenging, but not impossible. I really like that many mentioned that women can be harder to track than men in the historical record even in the last century just because of things like marriages and name changes that maybe aren't always super well-documented, but then they are a leader a little bit harder to find coming up. This interview turns to talk of studio romances and I, we're gonna have a quick sponsor break. There is so much noise out there these days, right? The new cycle is just off the rails, and sometimes the best escape is just putting on some music music taps into our emotions and inspires us. It helps us relax past the time. Maybe you're in the mood for something new or maybe something the style GIC either way. Apple music has fifty million songs and it's ad free. If you go to apple music dot com, slash purple, you'll get your first three months for free. No-obligation cancel anytime. Go to apple music dot com. Slash purple apple music, and it's always uninterrupted. One of the things that you talk about in your book which seems like it would naturally happen regardless is that there was a rather common event of studio romances cropping up. I imagine when you have a huge department of women that is disproportionately huge for probably compared to other industries or companies working alongside a large group of men like eventually, there are lots of romances that pop up. Will you talk about that a little bit and sort of the social aspect of it, but also the the more famous romance that came out of it. Sure. Now, you know, again, these these basic stories that had been told that had surfaced were the ongoing notion that the animation department was the monastery, and the inconvenient building was the nunnery or they have different little pet names. But in forty fifty, you would have essentially kind of dating pool that was sort of the match dot com in a way because you have this pool of of women. But again, placing into context, this is a pretty unique area because other areas of industry women were relegated to separate areas, separate pool in some instances of various office buildings had separate elevators, women's elevators, emend, elevators as women are moving into industry, and that's a whole other subject on a whole other podcast. But as women are moving into industry. It presented new challenges for the very male dominated entrenched day to day factories and and other instances where where women were beginning to move into and as the numbers grew circumstances to change. But for the most part, it was always challenging at Disney in within animated at at dizzy ended. Other studio isn't just strictly for Disney, but the other studios as well. Here you do happen and women in separate divisions and apartment. Women were there in secretarial roles and making advancements into editorial and and in other areas, but working side-by-side being paint. Teams always seemed to be sort of the dating pool and. No, they were always activities of, oh, hey, he's got a friend. People were much more social activity, dances, things like that were a big part of the scene as well. So there was once active baseball games at the lunch hour, lots of really great opportunity to mix and meet back. There would be ward Kimball and his ticket Jitty eight band would play at the lunch hour in one of the sound stages or right outside the animation building, and couples would pair off and dance and the great way to kind of get social and and spend your lunch hour gathering and seeing people because the work they were doing was very focused, very sedentary, eat it up those death. So won't realize it was important to have kind of a good release than a good outlet. Keep his artists balance. There were a lot. Lots of romances of a number of the ladies. It said, oh, I met, you know, all three of my husband's or. Great source to find, you know, good dating material. There were a lot of characters and you know a lot of unsuccessful relationships too, but and there were always showers and baby showers. And so it's it was an interesting progression where the first generation is young women coming in were career women, which we was trail-blazing at the time. Then as they were dating and meeting and getting married as was the standard in twenty thirty forty fifty MD on one, two got married, women left the job, and and then it was expected to be raising families and being at home for some women that that was too much. It was a challenge. I have a couple of ladies who said, you know, when that occurred. My first marriage, I had my son my child and I, I Don, I was expected to stay at home and bake cook. He's all day. And here I had trained that I wanted my career in animation, and yet society didn't put mitt that in a lot of way socially politically, economically even into the nineteen seventy. One of the women who was the head of a major -partment when she and her husband were applying for their first home loan. The Bank would not look at her income. They wouldn't count it in here. She had ran a department in a major studio, but they wouldn't factored into what they call a fi core because she was a woman. So with regard to dating. Yeah, even won't was kind of the workplace was an interesting for him for him to find social companionship. In fact, the very first employees of the Walt Disney company was a woman. Her name is Kathleen dollared, and she was a friend of actually a friend of Lillian Disney enough. But Kathleen went to work for the young brothers and it's verified to the families. She felt, sorry for the young bachelor boy. She would often make dinners and cook for them or bake things for them. And it is verified to her family that a very young Walt Disney proposed to her and she turned him down because she didn't think he'd amount to anything. So when things were getting busier and there was more work to be done and a young Bouillon bounds came into town. Walt Disney, new Lillian sister Hazel in fact, Hazel nut young moult Disney when he was setting up his animation stand in his uncle's garage. She was in the neighborhood there. And so she was quite a vibration force and apparently the one person who could go toe to toe with Walt Disney and he paid attention and she also made a mean chicken dinner. So that made, you know his young, bachelor heart quite the rebounded with him. But Hazel was quite a a force and she's the one who recommended her friend, Kathleen is there I plea. And when they were expanding Lillian made her way down from Idaho after she graduated who sort of live with her sister and then have a begin life in the big city. See. Selene said, well, you know, we're looking to hire someone but don't vamp the ball. I don't know. We don't have verified. It sort of makes sense that she was like, you know, don't horn in on what I'm thinking here, but then she gave up on him and Walt sort of those cute little brunette and came in and started as a secretary and was doing the blackening nearly blackening on the film. And he would take the girls home after they were working long hours. He had a little automobile and he went drive them home in little in kind of figured something was up when he would take Kathleen who lived further away home first. And then he'd circle back so that lily and would be dropped off that. So. Especially in the rest is history on that one. It's very different time in. Oh, yes. You mentioned a few moments ago. Aletha Reynolds. Will you talk a little bit more about maybe her in one or two of the other trailblazers that you featured in your book. There are so many great trailblazers believes it was pretty neat. She was an artist in Kansas City and had helped out and work on wall too early laugh grams. She'll so belief did a little bit of work on the Alice's wonderland, the very first of the comedy. But when the money was running out on his little studio there that went bankrupt. She had to go off and find other work. So aletha sort of of early but unique person bit of personnel in the earliest days of wolf life and career. And I felt it was important to include her 'cause it really does speak to the fact that he really wasn't gender bias. It was about your talent and your ability. And in fact, in many ways, very early on he was very progressive about getting women in two places that you know many, I, which the life there were many, I within the Disney's. Radio as we get into the late twenties, Hazel pool is brought in while the Oswald the lucky rabbit series is underway and things are expanding at the the little Hyperion studio Hazel was the first woman to head a major department within animation overall in New York, where many of the other studios had been running. Brace studios and pets Hullah van in max Fleischer studios. They had women working there, and I'm my research continues into binding hostility, but the records are sadly incomplete because they were women. So even then it's a testament to how invisible women really were considered to be even though they were doing the bulk of the blackening or you know, celluloid aspects of the animation production process. So women were there, but it was always men overseeing. There aren't departments. We do have a couple of other early exception. But with regard to Disney, there were many, many, I for women again, starting with Hazel tool who was the first woman to head a major department within animation. Overall, she oversaw what was called the black Anders at that time. She transitioned that role. And if you look to the earliest Alice comedies and Basel, it's simple black, literally, outlaw. Lining, the pencil lines onto celluloid with an ink pen and then blackening in. So hence black honors, and that was actually the lowest end of the animation hierarchy. And it was a training ground. So men were doing this as well. But it was Hazel who said, you know, women are better and it's a much more exacting thing because you could see any little wobble or wiggly line showed up on the screen. So in an effort to tighten the artistry and expand the artistry Hazel soon as a real pioneer with that, she transitions to the first to have an all female team of black ner and she separates out the artists. So we have tracers and pickers at that point. She then later advances that into inking and painting, and that's when in the early mid thirties, and that's when we really see the artistry of. Tapered lines in and out in the full sweeping, Cala graphic strokes of inking begin to to expand and enhance the animation process. And we also have painting. And initially it's really sort of making the celluloid opaque so that there's no light leaks or anything in there. But it's women at Disney studios starting with Mary tab, did some of the earliest inking and painting on this silly symphonies, this gallatin dam, which is one of the best ever isn't that mind-blowing? Here's a little fun fact. I works, of course, is known for doing the animation, but he had a couple of of other gentlemen, helping him with that Mary tab. One woman did all of the tracing Peiqing at that point on that film. One woman did everything. And certainly there are a lot of cycles on there, but she oversaw an handled all of it and you're talking roughly anywhere from eight to thirteen thousand pieces of celluloid. So that was a remarkable feats on itself as we move into color, the advent of color at that point, with the advent of the silly symphony, the women are working with black white about three or four shades of grey paint. And this is paint that you get from the local hearts hardware store that you'd paint your bedroom. Winter, a piece of furniture or something until it was not really designed to adhere very effectively to celluloid and nitrates cellulite at that. But it was also if you wanted to achieve a certain color. So they purchased a couple of paint smell so they could refine the paint to get them to blend and work towards hearing. But then as they began to expand in color in nineteen thirty, two with flowers and trees. They were working with eighty shades of paint different colors, literally pulled off the shelves of a hardware store, and it was incredibly problematic because some colors would not convey properly under the light for the camera. So they really had to feel their way on, you know, if we want to achieve the look of of fire, what shave they're really going to work for that. So they almost had to go to a mix, a deep orange into a red in order for that to not be washed out on the screen once the seltzer onto the camel lights. So it was a very challenging and accomplished within an incredibly short amount of time, and then went onto the first Academy Award garnered parameters, not so much for the animation, but Larsen for the application color. And it was all women working in that area Hazel tool and her teen. By the way, if you have never seen the skeleton. I recommend you Google it. It is an absolute delight and you will gain a true appreciation for Mary Tibbs work inking and painting throughout that entire shorts. We're going to pause for just a minute to take a break for a word from one of our sponsors that keeps the show going. I'm going to get back to this interview. Hi, this is our Yana huffing done. And I'm here to tell you about the thrive global podcast where I sit down with some of my favorite people to find out what makes them take, how this day, creative and productive and how the thrive in all parts of their lives. I've had great conversations with everyone from Jennifer Aniston and Malcolm glad. Well, I think that a lot of the stress that people feel they feel because they have put themselves at the center of their own universe when you remove yourself enough place. I think a lot of the pressure subsides Duques de Barry and Neil degrasse Tyson. When Newton comes up with this theory of gravity, and so the apple falls and you know, suppose he was looking at his smartphone instead of watching the apple never have the theory of gravity on have learned, an amazing number of the Knicks and strategist to be our best in our modern world search and follow the thrive global podcast on iheart, radio are subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts. This when we're actually going to pick right up with Mindy, it's not me asking a question. It's just her talking in the next segment as she continues to discuss the challenges of working with paint that the women of the studio had to overcome, and there is a great bit of information coming up about how a woman chemist really figured out how to move the entire industry forward as it continued and expanded with silly symphonies in color. Again, team as they were getting different paint type that they were using, they wouldn't blend properly. They lose pension. They wouldn't dry properly or evenly and you'd get it under a, you know, a couple of hundred pound platinum in the camera. I'm in suddenly get paint bladder, and it would stop production. You'd have to clean up the lens and the and the platinum and start all over again and redo the Tel. So it was very problematic and even trying to achieve proper Cohen pallets was getting problematic. Because he film each short had its own palette. They moved into their brand new state of the art Incan paint building in nineteen thirty five at the Hyperion studios. Walter brought out a young artist from Chicago. Her name was Mary wiser, and she saw the problems happening and she said, you know, we can do better. And so she went to Hazel tool and Walton riot and she'll began study chemistry, got her degree in chemistry and then won't ROY center off to different paint vendors in New York. And she stumbles the first and only paint lab in the world. Creating pain exclusively for cellulite animation. Oh, wow. Yeah. Nothing like it in the world. And by the time we get this is in roughly nineteen. Thirty five thirty six within about a year year and a half see moved from a couple of hundred colors that were pulled off of the cell that they were trying to work with to creating their own paint ups in the first year loan that they were underway. She saved that studio, six thousand dollars in white paint alone, but went on to expand the pallet going from about eighty colors off the shelf for flowers and trees in nineteen thirty two to over fifteen hundred shades of color in nineteen thirty seven for Snow White and the seven doors who it's let that sink in for. And she had teams of women chemists. It was all women and she created around manuals. There was nothing like this and instance, nor has there ever been and she created her own team and wrote typed out the original manual, which Alexis and her experimentation log show. So Mary home to patent, she created what was called the blend technique which hearkens back to the early die techniques that were used in the silent days of hand colorization on live action films in early, put a graph, hinting photograph, which is why in telling this weeping story, I give you over a century or more of history, her story because you have they kind of call back to the earliest die techniques in order to create this blend to Snow White cheap. Now, there's a terming little myth that the ladies use their own make. Up to get that look of Rouge on her cheek, but it's it's a myth that was actually Marianne her teams, and they developed this technique Mary and we have the log reports, hundreds of experimentation. Each one each variance is launched in. I mean, this was not Betty Crocker's kitchen. This was Madame curies lab, and these women were redefining how we see an experience animation and a large part of what brought and Nayed Snow, White, and the seven dwarfs possible. It's think about it story has to change and you have the first woman credited for story in animation. Her name was Dorothy and blink. She came in a couple of years before snow light because Walt was leading towards the endurance. He did many of the basic story breakdown, early story development concepts, exploring different offshoots and narrative. Ideas. She did full character breakdowns and descriptions and establish the basic templates of how we still approach feature, length animated storytelling. Today she did this in the nineteen thirties. In fact, she was exploring story concept before Peter Pan and the little mermaid in the nineteen thirty film, you know, were bucks off of temps in the fifty and the eighties and nineties. So going back to the very beginning, she was a real trailblazer with what we still do today and yet, no, but he knows. I know it's astonishing to think about really the level of advancement. These various women achieved, and they're not coming everyday names and they probably should be exactly they. They should definitely be right up there with the Windsor mckay's and the Walt Disney and other. Certainly, there's a hierarchy to the work. But when you look at the nine old men, I oftentimes when I'm speaking, I speak to ten extraordinary women and the on there were just as many men as we're aware of. There were many incredible women trailblazing in editing aerial in writing in background in songwriting in voice work and in live wrecks in reference modeling and virtually every aspect of animation. We still have big ceilings to crack in directing, but that's changing. Yes, this is where we're going to leave things for today's episode, but there is so. Much more to come with Mindy. On our next episode, she is just a phone of information. And in the meantime, if you just cannot wait for more Mindy, you can find her online at Mindy Johnson creative dot com. That Mindy is m. I n. d. y. we'll also have that link in our show notes for episode today. Do you also have some listener mail? I do 'em since we are talking to someone about animation, we are going to have the continuing discussion of something that came up in our winsor mccay episode bit. The ongoing saga of rare bit, which is the I mean, cheese saga I'm totally in for this is from our listener, Eric, and he wrote rear bit is indeed cheese on us, but it can be a lot more complex than what you'd put over macaroni. One of our other listeners mentioned that that was how it was explained to them when they were traveling shred or great cheddar into a pain with a bit of butter to start it melting and then comes the tricky part, the consistency. You're going to add a liquid often beer milk. If you avoid alcohol, Queen Victoria. Apparently used champagne and also a bit of flour or beaten egg to bind the mixture, make it smooth. It can be either a portable sauce or thick enough to be spooned onto toast or crackers as a finger snack. I'm not detailing the recipe because there are so many the best time to make rear bit as a standalone dish is in the evening with friends. The best way to make it is at the dining table in an old fashioned, chafing dish over flame. The stir now chafing dish company which later became the Stor no company published this verse eating at bedtime. Quote wise, old doctors used to say, do your eating in the day, never eat a thing. They said, just before you go to bed, modern doctors differ quite and say, just the opposite food bedtime. They explain sues the nerves and calms the brain, so we cannot go astray. If we eat both night and day and achieving dish, it night brings to life anew delight. I love that. I kind of want to get it written out beautifully and maybe framed. Anything that encourages eating cheese day and night. I'm in for and also an opportunity to say, opposite, instead of opposite. I know I, I skipped it because I, it just sounded too weird in my head. That is very cool. I did not know this detail about Queen Victoria and champagne in her rare bit. Yeah. It's also interesting because unlike a lot of cheese or cream base sauces you'd make today, it doesn't start with a Roo. It starts with the geez. Yes, in the flower gets added later. I will also note that there are a lot of different ways to make MAC and cheese that are all like they vary across cultures and vary across regions. And there are some MAC and cheese that start with a rue and others that do not start with the rue. And if you ask people in different communities about their MAC and cheese, you may get vastly different answers. Oh, if you ask different people in the same family at a reunion, you might end up with fisticuffs feel strongly about MAC and cheese, which is because it is delicious. If anybody else wants to share more of their rare bit information feel free to do so because I am loving the ongoing discussion, Eric, thank you so much. This is very cool and I love that you included this verse which I had never seen before if you'd like to write to us, you can do so at history podcast, house networks dot com. We are also across the spectrum of social media as missed in history and missed in history dot com is also our website where you will find every episode that has ever existed as well as shown oats on any of the ones that Tracy and I have worked on other goodies, and we encourage you to visit us at missed in history dot com, and subscribe to the podcast on apple podcast, Google play or wherever you get your podcast. For more on this and other topics visit how stuff works dot com. There is so much noise out there these days, right? The new cycle is just off the rails, and sometimes the best escape is just putting on some music music taps into our emotions and inspires us. It helps us relax, pass the time. Maybe you're in the mood for something new or maybe something the style GIC either way. Apple music has fifty million songs in. It's ad free. If you go to apple music dot com, slash purple, you'll get your first three months for free. No-obligation cancel anytime. Go to apple music dot com. Slash purple. It's apple music, and it's always uninterrupted.
Stuff You Missed in History Class
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Partner shit on Mike lobe on the World Series begins tonight. Tony, you're having people over, aren't you Tony corners? No, I'm not. I'm sending them to your house. Are you ready for the address? People? We're not doing the dress. Are you people over. I love the World Series. I will watch as long as I. They can't go the distance anymore, but I will want. Fourth, anyone can get all I can get to the fourth inning starts at eight to the fourth aging, changes, wealth. There's a lot of, I don't know the rig kimbrough's out there. You're not getting to the eight. That's a big upset. Wanna PTI boys and girls. In today's episode Rajon Rondo denies he spent Garin card denies in cried and the Lakers are denied your first win rate. But we begin today with game one of the World Series only a few hours away. The Boston Red Sox led the majors in wins. One hundred eight and runs scored. They dominated I, the Yankees and the defending champion Astros in the AL playoffs. Both the Astros and the Yankees won considerably more games than the dodgers who needed to one hundred sixty third game to even win their division will we'll Boston season a disappointment if they don't win a ring, Tony, I just don't believe in that. You know, we occasionally asked this question about with patriots would be a disappointment if they don't win. If they don't want to Super Bowl, you know, will LeBron season. I don't believe in that. I believe that that sports is more complex than that that it's harder to get to a championship game round series. That question suggests so no. I mean, the Boston Red Sox have had a great. Season. It is no guarantee to dig. Oh, also through Clayton Kershaw against two starts could win two games and the Los Angeles Dodgers. I'm going to answer the question directly and I'm going to answer in the exact opposite manner that you've answered it. I think will be a tremendous disappointment. If they don't win. They have been the best team or your. We are past the point in the culture where the Boston Red Sox are sympathetic figures. We're past the point with Chicago Cubs, sympathetic figures because they have one World Series. You are the best team you handle in the playoffs beat the next two best teams. You've got home field and you've got the weather advantage because it gets cold a lot in Boston, and you know how to deal with it. I, yes, tremendous of women. If they will, Tony, this is not nineteen sixty four with to the American League champion a nationally champion for the World Series. You have rounds of playoffs now and those things take on a momentum of their own life of their own. If you will, I just don't believe this vessel Lewitt's. I should waste fall particularly the sport where a group. Alling marathon of a regular c. it's supposed to be respected. If you wind up on top of that, the Red Sox have done what they hit every Mark they were supposed to hit. They hit including being dominant in the playoffs to this point. Now, I mean, what I wonder about is Chris sale and David price involved e are they better than Kershaw and whoever Elsa adagios still at that. But I think it's a hitter series. You may not think it's a hitter series, and I think it's going to end up in Craig kimbrel slap a lot. And I think that shaky think it got this whole thing forecast. Okay. We'll get some other forecasts you've had in a minute like now, Tony, the most beloved team in Los Angeles, not the dodgers. The Lakers has been involved in three unbelievably entertaining and dramatic game so far and has lost all of them, including overtime thrill into the Spurs in LA last night, we're not have to deal with whether LeBron should've taken that jump shot or driven. We're not gonna deal with that instead, let's get right into Luke Walton post-game comments which detail. The Lakers lack of foul shots despite being the aggressor in every game. So how does it sit with you that the Lakers are blaming officiating for their winless start. Okay. So let me just say right off the bat. I may have overestimated said the lake long. Yeah, I may be loud wrong on that at the moment there on pace to win zero. I am right. I will be proven right that the Cleveland Cavaliers will win twenty five or fewer, and we'll fire their coach at the end of the year, but I may be wrong with the Lakers dancer, this thing about officiating. They got the call. They needed last night with twelve seconds to go in the overtime. LeBron James went to the line for not wanting. He went for two. If he makes POS those shots. We're not talking about this today because they win that game. Amazingly, he missed both of those. You can talk all you want about the theory behind what Luke Walton said, but they got the calling needed last night. No, they didn't because the Lakers I'm gonna I'm gonna say this. I don't like hearing this thing. If you lose a game and Luke Walton started by saying, I wasn't going to say anything. I want to keep my body however, but Tony, this. Sorta irrefutable liquor scores, seventy four points in the paint. Against the first night, they were the aggressor they were in the paint was people. Teams will do that anymore. Lakers have to not a great three point shooting team. They shot twenty six shots eighteen to twenty six, the Spurs who would just snipe away beautifully choreographed autism afar. They sat thirty eight free throws after making only fifty. Are you saying there's a prejudice against the Lakers. Judice what nobody saying. I've seen a guy like Josh heart. A youngster who's terrific by the way, local products you're not getting any calls you. So Luke Walton may have a point, but the Lakers problem is bigger than that. The Lakers problem is they don't know each other yet and all the teams in the west. They're playing not new teams to things that true. The Lakers are pretty darn good. Even from the start owned three, but the west is a beast and they're going to struggle, Josh heart doesn't get any calls, doesn't get any calls. Mary Hart doesn't get any calls. And you know why? Because you have to be very Bradley, yes, you veteran in that league to get calls. They got one or two guys, one cent right now. And the other guy is like Shaq with the ball. People bounce off. Me doesn't get as many as he should, but I don't wanna hear this yet. I don't wanna hear from Luke Walton. Don't wanna hear annoyed because you prediction bad is looking. Bad. Just thought the Rajon Rondo Crispell spit gate incident was behind us, not guess what it isn't Rondo has now fully weighed in saying he did not spit on Paul, and Paul is much his Rondo said today, and I quote, I had a mouth piece in my mouth and exasperated because I was about to tell him to get the bleep body here. Of course, the NBA went with his side because I got three games than he got to. Everyone wants to believe, Chris. Paul is a good guy. They don't know. He's a horrible teammate. They don't know how treats people. I was gonna let it rest. But now I have kids and I teach my kids to speak up for themselves and don't let the world the story unquote wilbon. Where do you stand now? You know, this is tough for me because I would say two of my five favorite people to talk to in this league over the past decade are, as you know, Chris, Paul and Rajon Rondo. They are smart guys. They've never particularly liked each other. Paul Pierce talked about that in the post game the other night, and I understand that their opposite numbers going at each other with a prize involved. I didn't. I didn't know whether he intentionally spit when I saw the the tape. I didn't know what to make of that. And I think you kinda with me on that. I didn't three or four five. I never thought I never saw him spit even when they put the arrow. I've, I never saw didn't know that. But I know Chris, Paul feels he felt what he felt on him. And so I look, I don't have to take sides here. I'm gonna tell you something else. I think it's okay for these guys go at it, their rivals. They don't have to like each other. One of the reasons the NBA I think is better early to season is because there are people out there playing with mitt, like this guy and the games are contentious compelling and with these two, so it if I had to side with one over the other, if I had to, I'd probably side with Rondo because I watch tape and I never saw anything like that. And I thought Paul was the aggressor sticking his hand, right? Did that league has gone out of it's way this particular leaf Paul to believe Chris fall by giving him fewer games out by trying to shine the most flattering light on poor weather. This has because he's the head of the players associated if that plays into it. I don't really know, but I think Rondo has identified that particular part as punishment where they try to make. Almost Torola, but we have to toss them because he thought, but for future questions matters more to us. Having covered all this stuff. Our whole lives. Yeah. Is this good or bad for the NBA. They didn't go into the stands. It was just among themselves and it was in LA, which is the center of the NBA universe. So for ratings? Very good, very, very good for rivalry purposes. Yes. Was that sport thrives on the exit door has barely close in Amari Cooper and already to speculation is turned to what the raiders should do. Derek Carr. Surprisingly, the some of us, Marcus Thompson is reporting the both the locker room and front office have questions about car and toughness there. Even questions about with Derek Carr was crying at to take on the Seahawks. He says he wasn't either way the bloom is off the rose guy. Youth thought was going to be a big quarterback star in this league. I did. I did car then be the next to get shipped out of Oakland. Okay. Your coach has a ten year deal. He has all the time in the world. He is clearly methodically deconstructing his team. He traded. Away. Khalil Mack great player, trading blame somebody else. Everyday rated away. He's very good player. I sitting here now. I believe he should trade Derek Carr tonight tonight he should trade him either the Jacksonville, which doesn't like it's quarterback or the New York Giants, which at the moment don't have the quarterback. They think they do. He should getting number one pick he should stockpile as he's doing these number one picks bet on himself that he can identify in the draft all these great players and go into Vegas with a very young, very new team. I think he should trade the guy and I liked Eric, that's very nice. The Oakland Raiders are back to being a dysfunctional embarrassing miss, and it doesn't matter what they do, whether they trade him or give picks. I don't trust even Jon Gruden to get the picks. Right. I don't. I think they will go in Vegas and they'll make a big splash. They're Tonia was fifty fifty. They could want out of Vegas in ten years because that's what the raiders do. So I'm not gonna waste our whole lot of time mulling the options for the raider. Because as you said yesterday about some team, they're irrelevant the raiders again that they're irrelevant, but I'm saying, I think you trade this guy because I do think he has value. I think you get. What about number one this season? I don't think he's only not even half the care about it. Jim Harbaugh Bob boy will not shut up about Michigan state linking arms and walking up their own field on Saturday Harbaugh then called it quote Bushley yesterday he doubled down saying, quote to call that unsportsmanlike or Bush league is putting it mildly unquote, and he dubbed Michigan state's demonstration. As get this quote, an orchestrated stormtrooper knowledge unquote will about this is your conference as these are your responsibilities with Harbaugh mostly and I'm within Tony. I'm with both. What do you mean by the way? Do you see that clip of Harbaugh standing at the lectern with glasses and the short hair? You tell me he doesn't study photos of both him Boeckler and try to look like they looked like. It looked like though I shouldn't young bowl, why shouldn't he should? And they should both be at each other's throats. We just talked about rivalries, what's good for something. This is good for the big ten, Michigan in Michigan state hate each other. I think the Michigan, Michigan state because of their proximity hate each other as much as Michigan and Ohio State. The coaches plain don't like each other. They say things on Saturday morning and later in the afternoon, inflammatory, I love it all being a big tin person. It's good for college football far cost, see, I don't have football at my school, so I don't know how this works. But could you answer to questions on, isn't this Michigan state's home field? Yeah. And don't they do this all the time? Isn't this sort of a tradition for them mostly? Yeah. So I don't understand Harper nor Bush's who, and by the way the kid who stood on the Spartan logo and it up. So they had to repaint it. Bushley that was Bush league as far as I want I'm with. I'm always with Harbaugh all this is good for the big ten and good for college. Football always with Harbaugh. Who did this with Pete throws. Coming up, what can the Red Sox extract out of Chris sale? And we're going to ask Bob Costas. We're also going to ask them whether it's crank Kimble struggles were really do to him tipping pitches. So you won't side with Rondo. I will. You won't. You know, these are very, very, very suck. -nology truth brought to you by cold. Truth, teenagers can communicate entirely emojis. How why? Birthday party pizza slice kitten, soccer ball, pineapple truth. It's so easy to switch and save on car insurance at geiko dot com. What are you talking about? Paperclips shoulder shrug, high, five wizard hat what? Goco fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percents or more. Story, the award seeking investigative team broke in our first segment, the World Series begins tonight. We'll still welcome in a man who will be part of MLB, network's coverage. They'll be network hosts and a Long Island. Boy, Bob Costas. Let us start with this. These are two of the great historic franchises in baseball through that lens. Can you tell us how you look at this matchup. Well, I think it becomes more interesting because you have Boston fans not just in New England but scattered around the country. And dodger fans not just in southern California, but around the country. There's subplots both with this year's teams. They're both not just good, but they're interesting a lot of potential chess moves between Dave Roberts and Alex Cora. And as you said, each, how deepen colorful histories, which is why it's interesting to note that it's been more than a century since the dodgers and Red Sox met in a World Series. It was nineteen sixteen and the dodgers then weren't even the dodgers. They were known as the Brooklyn Robins and although Fenway opened in one thousand nine hundred, twelve, the World Series games in Boston were played at Braves field the field, then the home of the Boston Braves, because I've had a larger capacity. They figured that get big crowds for the World Series. So this is the first time they have met in a World Series at Fenway park where Dodger Stadium, I don't know that. Did you get a little. Little history Bob Costas on listen. Where do we start with Chris sale? Bob? I mean, he apparently has some sort of showed it irritation down the stretch. Allegedly some stomach issue. God only knows what the truth there is. He's pitching ten days. So do the Red Sox have any real idea what they're going to get from him under those conditions. I don't think they're one hundred percent certain. I asked core about it yesterday. He said, I know he will compete. I know he wants the ball, which is a nice way of saying, I'm not one hundred percent sure whether we get vintage, Chris sale was some percentage of that. Another thing which he said not jokingly, he's actually somewhat concerned, I think is that saddle insists on pitching in shirtsleeves it's part of his persona, and it's a very chilly Ron night, it's likely to rain during the game. They don't think this anything structurally wrong with his shoulder. It's just inflammation tendonitis, something like that. But from August first to the end of the regular season, he only through seventeen innings. Now he was able to pitch fairly consistently during the postseason, but they babied him throughout the season because his history is that he's great whether with the White Sox or Red Sox, the first two thirds of the season. And then when he begins to approach the two hundred inning, Mark, then he begins to fade. So they manage. That all season long and they were able to do it because they had the big lead over the Yankees and their division. So they've got their fingers crossed. I don't think they're looking for him to pitch eight innings tonight as he is often capable of doing when he's at his best. I think the car would take six good innings from JD. Martinez had a great season as the d. h. in Boston, this is this league is crazy because in the middle free Los Angeles, the Klay all three. They're not going to be a d. h. the only sport where the rules change in the middle of the series. What happens to Martinez the how do they work in? I asked Alex Cora about that in a lengthy interview yesterday. He said Martinez will be in the lineup in the starting lineup for all seven games. And if Mukhi bets plays second base, he's such a good athlete. He certainly capable of playing second. He began his professional career as an infielder any as taken infield practice and preparation for the postseason. If Mookie Betts is used at second base, it will be because of a late. Late inning switch or the game goes extra innings, and they have to make some chess moves. The likelihood is that when they get the Dodger Stadium, Jackie Bradley Jr. sits that's play centerfield and JD Martinez plays right field. Brad, Jackie Bradley Jr. near, wouldn't you only in the playoffs so far as long. Got forty thousand RBI's. That's right. That's right now that Eric gonyea has reportedly Alice core that Craig kimbrel had been tipping his pitches and he's all fixed. Bob is fix. We'll see. I thought he had a lot of trouble just finding the strike zone. He was erotic in a lot of games at the end of the regular season, and in the early part of the playoffs. And you can't explain all of that away when you can't even get the pitch in the strike zone, the has to be something wrong besides just tipping the pitches now, according to what gonyea told Cora and kimbrel he was looking toward the play, turning his head toward the plate a little earlier when it was a fastball and he was bringing his glove up closer to the tip of his beard when it was a slider. Okay, fine. If these officials you're going to swing at, but when a guy is so wild that he's walking the bases loaded, I don't know that you can attribute all of that to tipping the pitches. I will get you oughta here on this which way you lean in right now before the whole thing starts. I think it's going to be a good series. I give the dodgers chance, but the Red Sox have been the best team in baseball all year long. You don't win one hundred eight on a fluke, and then beat the two teams with the next two best records back to back in the playoffs and do it handily against the Yankees and then against the Astros. So they are the favorites and they deserve to be the favorites. Thank you so much with reform. I see that heavy coats. They warm. Okay, guys. Thanks. Let's take one last break. Still to come. The giants lose a game and trainee like what? Which he lied. Not that live. Not that you live and the Lakers might be winless, but a Laker fan had a big win last night liquor, fair. So if they could the lie, they could've traded, could have been gaily. They are known right? Did they have any people from Yale on it's a normal day. You're rushing out the door to get to work on time when suddenly there it is the dreaded service light. So what does it this time, tire pressure, low coolant time for an oil change. When it comes to service lights, head to jiffy lube, we've got you covered driving today and make the switch to Pennzoil ask for Pennzoil synthetics, getting back on the road. And jiffy. Jiffy lube, leave worry behind. John people happy fifty, six birthday, Doug Flutie the quarterback in arguably the most famous college football touchdown, passive all time. His last second hail Mary to Gerard falen to beat Miami in nineteen Eighty-four. And I know 'cause I was there. Oddly enough for grad flutie's now broadcasting Notre Dame games and shows up every once in a while in commercials for Dr Pepper didn't work. So willing Chicago beer uniform, no coast didn't get along real well. Nobody was a great Heisman, Trophy Ambi Peter Pan. I thought Bambi happy anniversary. Joe Carter on this thing twenty five years ago, you hit a three run series winning walk off Homer off Mitch Williams of Philadelphia to give the Blue Jays their second straight World Series championship near before the Blue Jays had beaten the Atlanta Braves, and they had never been to World Series before or since in their forty one year history. The only two conference sizes never to go to the World Series, Seattle Mariners and the Washington, Montreal franchise. Now the nets list of to walk off homers in the World Series. Mazza ski Carter. That's it. That's. List. That's pretty special. It is happy trails to this lucky fan. Lakers fan, hit a half court shot to win thirty thousand dollars during the time out. Last night after he made the shot, he ran around celebrating and tried to get some love from Los Angeles. Lakers players only be waved off by Lakers security, which probably bothered that much. But now on seeing this one, feel like a bozo a rich bozo. Those shots used to get you a million dollars and then people hit a few of them went on on the ocean. I'm sure companies underwrite it off at a walk quickly. Broncos quarterback Chad, Kelly arrested for first degree, criminal trespassing, your thoughts on first who's chat? Kelly issues, quarterback the giants loss of the balconies and traded quarterback, eat light Apfel to the saints. Fourth of seven, seventh return your reaction people, New York traded along the bulls are three. Chris is out four to six weeks with a sprained MC l. how you feel. I feel good. I'm thinking about Diane Williams. Magic beat the Celtics in Boston bookings to surprise. I wouldn't have thought Orlando could Boston anyway, last one, the unbeaten nuggets and pelicans they both play tonight. Will they remain that way? Yeah. Clippers peleton's kings at nuggets, both at home to both gonna win pretty good, but they're not playing other. A lot of time better the next time, and I'm Tony Kornheiser. I'm Mike Wilbad same time tomorrow knuckleheads. You can get the PTI podcast on the ESPN app or apple podcasts, Tony Romo.
Aired Aired just now 39:28
ESPNLA Mornings with Keyshawn, LZ and Travis HR 3
Hey, growing number seven, what's your name? And where are you calling from? Brett Russell, call from San Pedro, go out about water. How you doing? I'm well. Thank you. I'm very thankful and blessed. That's what's up. We all feel the same way. Do you have today's lay Laker key word in? What is it? It's an as an angry. You are listening to the soul. Do you know what's his birthday today? Congratulations man you excited. Yes, sir. Who you taking? Who are you taking your son? Okay. That's good choice partner. Oh golf. Yeah. I'll be there. List? See off next week. I'll be there. All right. No. I know. I know Darren I know, Dan, Jaren. I mean, I'm sorry then. Okay. I think my girlfriend her her, son coaches, your son. Okay. Yeah. You said ex-girlfriend gotta go. Sweet line during the morning, so March first Lakers books and. John is FOX to coupon. Happy. Lakers. Plus, no, it's hard to say. His name was actually. All right. Listen tonight doing makers jazz for another Lakers, keyword, she tomorrow morning. I screwed up on the script silent that on technical reading something. Your mama career. Rajas, mama. She makes the best grits ever had. Me. No, really, I add more y'all. Oh. Not the smooth or is moved putter below. Sean pepper pepper butter, but coach grew with the scrapple grits scrambled gusting who eats scramble speaking of food addict, we got something for Keyshawn. Cargo doodoo drivers. So a little bit of a headline conversation that we speed up a little bit. In terms of food as my first ever spit take radio. That's all right. John snacks brought me to this. Because I went to the machine Vinnie machine to get the munchies which is a bag created by frito Lay's, which is a mix. I it has Cheetos in India Rita holes in rules of their son was at the southern ship sales and has the flavors in its fiery hot. But it also has pretzels in. Sure, you know, the dry pretzel Hertzel dry aluminum. Yeah. Not the not the sof with the cheese. Mustard. Right. So pretzels. I said to myself. Why would I eat pretzels? But this has flavor because pretzels red dust on it. I don't I don't eat. Okay. Regular dry press asks you do you eat pretzels? I asked Rosh if pretzels no I ask l z looked at you like you have frogs on your face. I don't eat pretzels. Okay. None of us eat Princess. And I said if you ever go to a black man, it's party. We will not happen. We will have a bowl of Doritos a bowl of normal. Ruffles barbecue. Sure Lay's we will have Cheetos, but you're not going to see a bowl of pretzels. But if I go to your party, then we'll have pretzels you're gonna. All that other stuff that we don't. It's okay. Everything that you just said that's true. We'll have all the things that you says, plus pretzels, plus onion dips. Prior crew Detaille platter in their dry ask popcorn. Now. I don't know. We don't think popcorn in my face. You're listening to k SPN Los Angeles. You are. Here's here's what I don't get. Yes. I understand that. There are you know, preferences. Okay. The my people like certain things your people. I I get it. What I don't get is why that lies threats because all the difference between a pretzel and thereto and a potato chip in a son chip and all these they're just different ways to eat fat. And so no. The same thing it tastes better. With a dorito has cheese on it in principle is just nasty nothing. It's just it's no. Faction. Oh, that's the difference between our taste buds and yours. So they just plain. No, I I don't understand. Why pretzels is the line of demarcation? But all right. I don't know whose idea was the principal. I'm just going to bake this hard tasteless brand and see if he will eat it. And if you get a bad pretzel, you could taste the burnt in it. You've you've eaten more than than I had if you can tell pretzel differentiation. All right Saturday night. Call them the Rams and the Cowboys running backs leaky or early in Zeke, the two best. They're there. Right. So you could argue a lot of different ways begins there because saquon Barkley several Markle's in the great stuff at this at Denver. I mean, there's a lot of different. There's a lot of those guys around the top five. Did you want that grapefruit sparkling water? No, I have a green juice. Okay. The Rams are gonna go offense. Only depending on how girly goes if he's somewhere between pretty good and very good. Then Jeremy has more time Jared Goff has more options. All of these Zeke the Zeke led the league in rushing. He's just a tank. He's just really really good, and he's going to do it. But when you look at the two offenses, which of those two guys needs to have the bigger day for them to have success because as I see it if girlies not right? And I don't know what CJ Anderson's gonna be able to give him. He's been good in two games. But it was the Niners in the in the cardinals. If girly isn't girly. I think that the Rams are informed more trouble than if Zeke isn't quite maximums eat, well, but see a few looking at girly in C J Anderson had two hundred three hundred yards. Yes. So you still get into production Ariza San Francisco, but you're still getting the statistical production. That's what I'm trying to tell people about statistics. You're not getting the person, you're not cues. The doesn't catch the ball. Is not to homerun threat early. Yeah. But but when you look at total yards. You're like, oh, it's the same thing. It's not the thing that I'm close in. That's why you gotta have a guy like girly in there to soften the blow from R golf Zeki. Oh, Elliott on the flip side of things. He needs also beat here for debt Preska. We saw that Prescott year go without Zeke in a lineup. It did go. So he too has to have him in. It'd be able to do his thing and be able to do who's got a better chance of surviving. If if both of those guys are less than their best girly could sit here. Look, you might concern is he has a plate for a month. It's not just that he might have some rust. It's that there might be something. I don't know. But if they were this cautious. And this thing we saw in the previous games before that he wasn't very good that I don't know. Well, I don't know what soon as I don't know what it's going to look like you're you're cautious. Because those games you just mentioned the C J Anderson had San Francisco didn't look Zona. Didn't look good against philli. Didn't look it against Chicago. But no. But that's when he was banged up. So you let him rest against those other games because you knew you can win those games without him in the lineup test. Your question. You know, he had his streak of touchdowns in a game broken in that fifty five point victory against Kansas City. Have I think like seventy yards rushing and he's still found a way to get fifty five yards without him getting the end zone. Once I don't think you could say the same thing about Dak Prescott in the Dallas Cowboys. So to answer your question deck me's Zeke to go off way more than Todd Gurley impacts on Jared Goff because we've already seen at play Keyshawn pointed out when he was in the lineup. Dak look very very mortal. When he's in the lineup he looks like he's worth the money for Jared Goff. They get the job done with C, J Anderson. They get the job done with Todd Gurley being heard the only lost three games. So I feel is the presence of Todd Gurley is enough to earn the respect of opposing beef as the jerk off to be allowed to do things. Whereas you can't just have the presence of Ezekiel. Elliot, you need the production for look I. Yes. But the the only lost three games is true. But the problem is two of those three losses were when Gurley was less than his best. Two of those three losses came when Jared Goff was really really below average that you're gonna against the bears against the eagles had bad nights. And those are the two games were Gurley was nicked up where girly either didn't play or didn't was not able to play at his level. And I just I I just don't know Jared Goff is going to be able to be Jared Goff. If Todd Gurley is less. I hear what you're saying about deck that if Zeke is if they can can bottle Zeke a little bit. Then there's a lot seventy yards. It's a wrap. It's the rat on about that is rep. I don't know about that really think that Dak Prescott. And I know that key southeast. He's been the Jared Goff. That's fine. Daniel, I'm sure he'll recover from that. Once he had time to think about it. But do you really think back Prescott is going to carve up that secondary? With them dudes. No, I don't think he's going to car up that secondary Zeki. But I don't think Jared Goff is going to carve up Dallas. If Todd Gurley isn't Todd Gurley. I think the. I think the presence of Todd Gurley. So so even if he does give you the production his presence you can't play as of Todd Gurley is not gonna break for a big one. Yeah. But if he's not giving you the production his presence is not going to be enough in this particular game. Just him standing there being a cardboard cutout? They know there's something wrong. We're worried about how worried should be that his practice was officially limited. Does that mean anything doesn't mean anything does? What was limited that he didn't that they're bringing him alone slow because mental reps are more important for him than the physical rips. I. Matt Ryan, he's fine. He's fine. He's fine. He's fine. He's fine. We're just being cautious. We're being cautious. All of a sudden he shows up. He makes one cut in. That's what I'm worried about. You got a lot of doom and gloom. No. I just I've seen it before. And he's he's the most important piece on this team. He you could argue is the most important piece in the league they that he's that valuable and if he's not right? I mean, I hope that it's just Kashin. I hope that it's just let's be extra careful for. Because if they really really were fearful for his wise, they just signed him to a zillion dollars. What else before me they're not going to go out there and risk the next few years over this one game? If he can't be out there. I want to take your premise in flip. It can the Rams score thirty points. If Todd Gurley doesn't play. Well, no. Yeah. They just did it twenty. No, they just did it twice. Can't. They literally just did it though Zona can't this is not Alice defense and has shown that they're capable of shedding down high powered offenses. They did it to New Orleans. Thirteen points. They're not us. Well, we sure about that. We've we saw him play each other. They look like they're the one team. I've seen all season long. You'll see the the saints that you looked at. And you looked at those two backs. You looked at that quarterback. You looked at Michael Thomas. You look you're like, oh, they got it all to the they've they've got every weapon that we've got they've got one that's really similar if not just as good if not a little bit better. Who'd you pick the way in that one. No in this game this game this weekend. The Rams I think if girlies ri- I made my pick based girly being right? Pick the Rams all day long. Just like you. What's that mean? What does that be homers? What you're saying? Hold on a second. You're telling him a Homer because I picked a team that went thirteen three. And I picked him a lot does that make me a homers that make me understanding your team wins a lot of progress to win. Again, you keep peaking against the white wise that that's real question. I didn't pick against them all the time. Oh, not true pick against them. Based on what I think that's gonna happen. So did you pick up this weekend? No. Because I think Dallas Cowboys can come in. And do a little upset remember picking against the spread. I didn't pick based on the Rams losing. Nate every now, and then everybody wants to be a part of the show or nothing just. Get open part. Another one. Six and a half points pick that up pigs at that not against the ring. Gonna win. The Rams a win the game. They just six and a half points is what what I think is going to be the difference. Like, the guys we're talking to Sean and RJ in Dallas that if this gets going, and it gets into a back and forth and we've seen the Rams in their sixteen games. Maybe ten or twelve of them were back and forth. Just go go. Go go go. It's one of those. I feel great about it. If we get into the second half, and the scores thirteen to ten then all of a sudden, we've got a much different game. Because if the Rams are playing summit in the teens or or low twenty s I dunno. I dunno. I because I don't think they'll be in the teens of the low twenty s of Todd Gurley is right. I twenty seconds wrap. We can talk about Goff in woods in Brandin cooks and all these guys and air Donald teases here Todd Gurley time to go. All right. Did the Lakers finally find their number two Alaska mean now? Amine, El Hacen, joining us here in students. Insider. Hey, don't say that too. On January ninth happy new year. He don't like that. He's gives you a grace period of three days is he good here is ESPN commentator highly questionable around the horn. He does sideline for on NBA has a strict three day rule. We're good January third. Keep it to himself. I'm looking at you, my friend. I haven't seen you in two thousand nineteen happy new year to you is he in June. We'll be like happy new year. Oh, so we couple of nights ago the Lakers had an ugly game against the timber wolves. And Lonzo was scoreless in Luke said after the game. Hey, we need more passion. We need more fire from our young guys, and he didn't mention by name, but we know him at Brandon Ingram. We know him Lonzo ball since then they've been a lot better. Lonzo at a good game last night. Couple of games ago. He was really good coups was fantastic last night. But is that wide Lonzo? And Brandon Ingram have kind of had the graft tick up a little bit on him because Luke got in Numa little bit. I've been Lonzo that's been his whole season. He has a good game and aggressive game the game. We'd disappears last night. I thought they were long stretches to start the game where he would bring the ball up throw it to the to the wing initiate the offense and then just go chill. And then anytime he actually got the ball. It would be towards the end of o'clock, and he'd put up a batch. It's a reason why he didn't get his first bucket until maybe midway through the second quarter. I want to say when he hit that three pointer. So. I think I think for Lonzo that's going to be a year long thing him trying to figure out how aggressive do I need to be you play. You have the great Steve Nash in your franchise. When you make the transition from Dallas be coders, Dirk to Phoenix where he was the guy, but Steve's a pass first point guard that easily could have given you twenty night. But he he he says it now Steve says looking back, I should've shot more left. How difficult is it for a pass first point guard likey Steve nast like Lonzo to recognize they're the best option? Well, I it's easier for for Lonzo because he can't chew which is a pass first guys develop that way because they can't shoot. So like I got to do something else out here because it ain't going to be shooting. And that's how they find value on a basketball court. The thing with Steve was he was the best shooter in. The league at that time he's ever easily, and I'm talking about three pointers or mid range around the rim. He shot amazing percentages everywhere. But Steve didn't like to shoot his whole thing was and teams with play him for that. They would say we're gonna try and make Steve shoot. Now. Every once in a while you piss them off. He ends up dropping thirty five forty because. Oh, you're not gonna me. All right. He'll go, but his natural instinct was always to find guys. But yeah. And that's the same thing. I say about natural instinct is to find guys. This is what he's done since his natural instinct is out of necessity as opposed to Kerr as as Steve Nash who could get buckets. Like, we're saying that Lonzo. Because he. The other thing by Lonzo. I would say beyond inability to shoot there are times. So for instance, I I remember watching this and thinking that last night man, I wish he would demand that how the ball and then try and run something and create for others. But then I'm like, why do I want him to be more? I caught myself as I was thinking that's the right play push it up moving everyone should play like that. So he he makes the right play. But sometimes in my head. I'm like, well, sometimes you need to say, Dan the right play. Gimme the rock. Let me create for you. He he is creating by making the right play. And I think a lot of people want him to be a little more selfish at the rim in going to the Cup and doing those sorts of things. But that's just not who we is. And they go back to college. And they say, well, he did it in college college is defining a lot of it has to do with this free throw shooting. And I think that has to do with the key also the right place sometimes eight the right the right play in a light disa-. Hey, man. I pushed it up. That's the right play. But when I tell you, hey, man, I'll push it up, and I gave it to Casey piece. So he could Doron for twenty seconds that eat the right play. Right. It's the right basketball player to push it to an open teammate. But you know, some people Kyi p yeah. No know your personality. That ain't the right play better play for me to hold onto it right here. And I think he's got to find that out. That's his balance. He's got find out on the court is this about what you thought. The Lakers would look like without LeBron they're three and five and a little better better of late. But is are they a sub five hundred team without him? I thought they'd be better. I thought they'd be better than than this a couple of games. They lost. I thought they'd win when he got hurt on on December twenty fifth. I remember we looked at the schedule set. You know, what if LeBron James got ten games? These are the ten attendants, right? There's a couple of doozies in their Oklahoma City. And and a couple of others in there put it's like, okay, I can deal with Sacramento twice Clinton condo, the Knicks. Like, this is the time to do it. And so from that standpoint. Yes. But then again, they lost to the Knicks. And it's and so there are things where you're still kind of disappointing that they still haven't figured that out. But I think think Luke Walton coming out the other day. And Sam what he said about them young dues without naming names. They got it. And they've shown the last couple of games as a group that they can go out there. And and put things together to win these games. They've got a tough on the going tonight in wins in Utah, Utah macromolecules via. Yeah here. Here's Luke talking about what you're saying key about Lonzo and Ingram stepping up for the second night in a row, Lonzo and Brandon were great again as far as what I talk about them being aggressive aggressive in playing with that competitive spirit and just making the right plays as nothing to do with how many points they score. Just how how they played a game. I thought both of them did a really nice job of that again tonight as a team we did a good job on on Blake. Who's a heck of a player as far as making it tough on him. And in that mainly was coups with the initial line. But it was everybody is far as the game plan was concerned that they fall. I I've said this last couple of days I mean, and I just wonder if I'm Luke Walton, and I have to continually remind guys to play with competitive spirit. I'm worried about that. Because some guys you shouldn't have to tell a guy. Hey, I need you tonight. I don't I don't think it's competitive spirit that that's dogging some of those. I think it's just indecision, you know, the idea. Okay. What am I supposed to do? How do I help? What's the best thing for me to do right now? Because it'd be easy to say the guy who claps won't shoots it every time. Oh, he wanted. No. He's just dumb. He doesn't know how to play any other way. Let's be honest like just because you shoot every time. I want to win more than anybody else. Yes. Rush. Let me and I have a question. What's up you ever been in Denver? Yes. From car your play like the left side to right say like a miniature von Miller with those glasses on. It's pretty accurate. I think there's nothing wrong with everyone's making a face. There's nothing wrong with what Rogers said. I wanna take a picture we're gonna take a picture for social you guys. Like rampage the guy you just not talking now. So you talked about guys trying to figure out you know, how to demonstrate. She worked to win. And that you want to put forth effort, and it's not just about shooting. But I don't think loops criticism of Brandon Ingram, and and Lonzo ball was based upon shot, selection based overall aggression right keeps us competitive spirit his face. And then the question is at which point. Do you get tired? If you're a franchise having to tell what are your key players. They need to be aggressive and windy you move on from that. And saying we need to get guys in that we keep saying this to. I mean, you've had number of guys like Tim Thomas, for instance, that when he was aggressive and looking for his buckets he was about as good as the scores you can ask for and then sometimes he'll take three games off within Thomas's easy. Just have a contra contract here. Yeah. All right. Well, we'll we'll get into that in. Plus, we're still talking about Anthony Davis. We're still talking about who's got a better job about the Broncos lists. We're not talking about the Broncos rush. We'll do the Celtics assets. Plus what that means for the Lakers with that means Ray, Anthony Davis. That's coming up next Travis. Yes. You know, who's singing here? Hold on. Here comes the hook. Wait doesn't sing on this part? Oh, that's him. Singing, I know this song. But I don't think this is him. Well, this is the Uber, right? I believe nineteen or eighteen last year when von Miller was the the spokesman, and he basically did all the singing for like he did the commercials. And so it looks like little mean dancing around on this Madden commercial. And so I just and we'll put the I never saw him eating glasses. I love it. So he's standing means. Sometimes they get a bit. And they're not aware that it's not working right down. Order. You posted a better picture of the right word. We're talking about it earlier works amino acid ESPN front office insider in studio with us is the only way Anthony Davis gets to LA is Anthony Davis says I want to be in L A because you look at all the picks that the Celtics have you look at the assets that they have on their team right now as far as personnel, relative, the Laker personnel. You could argue it's a draw. Could argue the Celtics have better players have way read. I agree. Then you throw in the the picks on top of it though. Anthony Davis is only here if he says I want to be in LA, right? I think that would be accurate, but why are we why would he not want to be in LA because you can go to Boston and better team. Yeah. But but at the same time if you for one another you could care less, but for one he has a house here. House here and say, hey. For what he has a house here. Secondly, he's wit clutch. Lebron that hold being bay. He LeBron has gone on record saying, hey, he would like to play with him. So you got all those sort of dynamics in play in being in L A versus being in Boston as an as a professional athlete. It's it seems like it would be more beneficial being in LA then in Boston you preaching to the choir. But I've got to be realistic in that a Boston has a more complete raw Brockton can trade more and still be nice, then LA can. And then the other thing is him and Kyrie Irving a really close like those guys are friends. And so that's that's playing into this. I think I think if any David sits back and says, I want to get traded and doesn't give a destination thing is New Orleans would probably rather send them east. Why would you say LA? So so there's all those. Things that are acting against Lakers. Which is why everyone says look if there's an opportunity to get it done in February you do it now. But before Boston can even introduce themselves into this into the mix. Can you talk to a little bit about what's going on in clipper land because we're talking about Boston Boston, Boston, Tracy fattening Davis? But I'm looking in the clippers is still in the tough for doc. Rivers is doing a hell of a job over there. They got tons of assets. They got tons of space. There was a story not too long ago that they had any plan in place to get two big free agent signings. How real are the threat a threat in terms of being the team in LA? The has the better talent. I mean, they are threat. I can't I can't deny because look you give them quite Leonard on free agency. And they keep all the other guys. And that's a hell of a team right there. It's pretty much Toronto in the west. But well, maybe not that good because they're not they're good defensively. But anyways, but they they have an opportunity. They're having opportunity the stigma that they're going to have to overcome is the Lakers having kept space to write like the idea any Marquis fridge. Okay. Go to LA to either team. But one of them is the Lakers. One of them's the clippers. And then one of them has LeBron does what do you call? Why be the one guy that could pick the other teams. Yeah. Yeah. He could be. But also he could just stay in Toronto. And so that's the problem with the clippers is they're competing not only against the guys across the aisle, so to speak, but they're also competing against their own history that the clippers clippers. See he is basketball survive just telling you, I never disagreed with them. No. When I was sitting here telling you, the clippers clippers clippers is different Jerry West. It's still fighters. Named for you me. A mean an ELS e because we're all roughly the same age because we all went you saw and saw what the clippers look like for decades. But for somebody that came up and didn't know the clippers when they were the Benoit Benjamin, clippers, Michael. It is different. But Travis I would still say, for instance, the nets and the Knicks the nets on infinitely better run organization. But it's still what if I'm going to New York, I'm going to go to the Knicks. That's still in a weird way. It's still has swayed. The Lakers have swaying away the clippers the clippers. I guess baseball Travis and I'm going to New York. I'm not going to know you're playing for the I I'm not there. I'm saying it's getting smaller and smaller and smaller. It's way better than it was look, here's the thing. There was a time when it's right. It is the clippers. They all going to mess this up. Right. And I think those days are over your, right? Jerry West is changed things. Doctor is being just the coaches change things at the same time that doesn't mean like, oh, gosh, I'm cool. Now, it's still you still have that stink on you. It takes a long time to wear all. And all. After you still competing with the pretty girls off the hall, right? But the, but the question is whether or not they are a legitimate threat to stop our plan for acquiring a quiet Leonard, and you answer that question for me, which is the one dude who's like our when care about all of that. I just wanna play basketball. And if they decide the clippers give him the best. But is that really him or is that just him at this moment? Who knows he doesn't know what I'm saying. Now, we're just in a quite different. He's a kind of guy might make that kind of decision. And by the way, Durant might make that decision to. Kevin Durant, and he went to reboot reboot. Yup. But you don't wanna look like you're jumping on. Lebron exactly. Like, you go you build your own thing with the clippers and register. He played for Oklahoma City. Why in the world would you leave the warriors? And what they've got going the building they're going into insecure. Exact because you're insecure Narcisse light. Frazier didn't help. Swear to God. I would well he you wouldn't I might not guess one guy. Who's? What do you say about? It was not a good day key for your people in the NFL the last couple of weeks when it comes in the last couple of days to filling vacancies has a theory to why that is we'll tell you what it is next Amy. You know Travis. Yes, Chris a kina could just break we had to Akina today, by the way. But when it does happen. It's always made possible by the law offices of Joseph Essner, Mon if you're injured in an accident call Joe will you eight six six seven seven seven zero six seventy seven. Yes, forget an accident. Travis. I hope you had your shot. Everybody wants to be clearly how many how many times can you do it. Yes. So who do we got we've got Steve Wilks? Hugh Jackson, Marvin Lewis, Todd Bowles. Vance Joseph who else am I missing on those those are five guys they all black. They all black, and they're all fired as NFL head coaches. Anthony Lynn survived and by the way. Does he have to savant is my favorite part? Like, he's about by having an amazing, right? Seasons. Anything? Anything? On the hot seat. But he's the only one left. Let's have some real real real real to the real real real talk. The only one has really done dirty was wills. I'm not gonna go to the bat and say Hugh Jackson deserved another chance. I'm not going to say. Topples Joseph didn't know what the hell he was doing. And we all saw get case keenum is your quarterback and see what happens over his head. And they always had always had like not only Elway hovering over him. But you also had kubiak. My thing is this. I think I think for guys who get a fair shake three four five years like that's one thing. But like you look at my man and in Arizona. Denver. It's like. Do you think he got like a like a male Joseph was going backwards though that team was not as bad right as they wanted to be when he took over as a coat, but we're not bad. Okay. One year mean to your point in Arizona. Steve Wilks cowed. This isn't it because you can kind of split it both ways I think you can say, hey, look one year. There's no way to evaluate a guy in one year. There's just impossible to do it. Or if I see a year. That's just dreadful. I know that's not turning around better to pull the plug after one year. Then spin the clock for another lime ashes question. What's dreadful first pick in the draft worst team in the league food? Yeah. So at that point. So let me ask you this one pull the plug on Shanahan and John Lynch because they right there. Because Jimmy Garoppolo went down and got hurt. Jimmy Garoppolo went down. Right. I had a young quarterback. Josh Rosen that didn't couldn't get out his own way in offense. I walked into but they they had their guys they had the people that they wanted. I know. I had a rookie. First of all I had Sam Bradford that you elected to sign a general manager who come on. Seriously. You cutting. Then you bring in a rookie quarterback that couldn't read the play. Call to try to figure it out you have offense and line as godawful you're running back in and out of the lineup. I'm just I'm just saying when you start to say me Garoppolo got hurt. I can make the same excuses for other coaches in situations. You still got a coach always tell you. What tells me? Good coach, no matter who's on the field could get the most out of them period period. No matter what anything I've watched coaches lose half their teams. It's still go out there in their teens put effort out in a look like, okay. This is going to write every my point for me right now. You just said right there that if I'm even if I'm losing my guys or even if I have an inexperienced quarterback, I've got a guy that's fresh off of a college campus as my guy my own line sucks. Nothing's working. But if I'm still seen nothing, but if you ain't gonna tally, but if I'm seeing nothing if I don't even get my if I'm the worst team in the league, but I go from that to a little bit better than what I thought it would be then I'm going to roll it. But if I see nothing at all maybe do pull the plug after one year. Here's win have anything in Arizona. And there's nothing I got a question for you key. Someone someone told me this yesterday. So I I was also gonna buddy of mine who's a football guy. And I said Patrick Mahomes. How could he be so amazing in a pros? And nothing like I mean, he was good in college. But he clearly wasn't this. And he said, well a lot of it was Techni his footwork was awful. Yeah. And so they when he came to the pros they fixed that and it opened up the game for him. A lot of first of all Andy Reid Rigas credit for the last two years has been his coach Ned about no cliff kings, beer, we'll get to that. That's okay. So that's that's what I was going here. So if we've established the reason why his pro game has been so much better. That's game was because they coached him up pretty much. They fixed flaws in them. Why the hell is clip Kingsbury get credit for having a lesser Patrick Mon a lesser Baker Mayfield being under five hundred tickets, very simple because when his name, Nick connected. He was willing to do the media. He was photogenic. He got Sean McVeigh mega seats, such as it is looming over the connections were real easy, pretend vision producers, I would tell you this having done TV for years and years and years and years have you they want an easy. They wanted easy. Right. So they have a script and they want the pizzas to fit the script. If you don't fit within the script, and they got to work a little bit harder. They don't really want it. And I. Cliff fit the script made it easy. Bam easy to pack. It's easy to sail. We can repurposes interview over and over again. Owner I guess thing more. The same thing general managers the owners do, but that's crazy that if your general manager your job is to put the best team out there. Why are you worried about those things and that to me that's the big picture? We take a setback in Arizona as the fire they fired as dude after one year, and they didn't replace them with Bill Bella TEK, no Orleans or the second Bill Walsh. Dude, who is five teams who Texas Tech gave up on who would with so unwanted. He had to take an coordinator job Amine with a hundred. Inside the record because what your side who wears on. Arizona satan. But but I'm just saying McVeigh worth he was so hot if he was such a hot prospect. You think you would've took a coordinator doubt? He was man. These NFL teams are coming to get me. He didn't even know he was like go back to something. You said go in the general manager's office this sense that because Ozias point I get white TV producer makes the comparison Kingsbury to McVay. I get it. I get why somebody's sitting at home and watching TV season goes. Oh, yeah. That makes sense. I get it. What I don't get is how general manager whose job it is to know candidates and coaching whose job it is to know personnel to know situations around the league around college football to get sold that I understand why a television viewing. How does it general manager get slow? So I'll give you a great example, we had to reporter in Phoenix. And we fired him. I want to say fifty some odd games. Also brickley. Fire. It was not justified. It was absolutely justified breath for several reasons, right. Like for us Terry Puerto when he interviewed he talked about doing a certain thing. And then from bay one switz- on we'll go back to I'm talking about before when we had the coaches recruits sold one thing and showed up with an absolutely. So our thing was we're the number one offense in the NBA. We've been the number one office last five years we wanted to defensive cool. He came in on day one of the coaches retreat, which was about a couple of weeks before training camp with the flip Saunders playbook, bro. What does this? And so we're like I'll maybe he just going through it. Then we get to camp, and they wanna kin he's going to flip Saunders office. We'll maybe he wants to do the stuff and then day to get to our stuff and three. Oh, no. He's he really wants to wherever the hell. What you guys ran. We're going to run this stuff. Right. Then the other thing he did was he did not connect with our very veteran team. So it wasn't like Arizona. We Steve Nash. We had Grant Hill. We had Shaquille O'Neal like that's veteran on veteran on Raja bell. They like all these guys are eight nine ten twelve years in Phoenix sectors, and he came in. And he did not. It connect with any of those guys. And so even though we were above five hundred. We're looking at it like we're not running offense that we wanna run our defense still stinks. The vessel hate them. Like, we gotta make a team that there was a time. When we knew we have to make a change, and we made that change Alvin gentry and everything worked after that wasn't justified. But you place with another product, I get I get that scenario. The part that I don't understand is how the general manager sits down with cliff Kingsbury and get sold a Bill goods to your point. He wasn't killing tech. He didn't have Mahomes coached up. It's easy. If you don't know it. If you're the here in key says, you would have been easy. How's it easy to sell your odor or something something that's a hot commodity? So if he's a hot commodity in the media, then you're the GM saying you see this hat bus right here. You're not competent enough. You listen to other people. There's other people that are telling you that former general managers in front office people that are saying to you you should hire this guy. You should hire this guy. All right. Most people that the chargers have a Super Bowl roster. Put it all together general manager, Tom Celescu coming up.
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