11 Episode results for "Albert Alexander"

Invention Playlist 4: Penicillin

The Best of Stuff

53:05 min | 11 months ago

Invention Playlist 4: Penicillin

"Today's episode is brought to you by IBM smart is open open is smart IBM's combining their industry expertise with open source leadership of Red Hat. Let's unlock the world's potential. Let's put smart to work. Learn more at IBM DOT com slash red hat. Guys it's bobby bones I host the bobby bones show and I'm pretty much always sleep because I wake up with three o'clock in the morning a couple of hours later I get all my friends together, and we get into a room and we do a radio show. Wish you're alive. We tell our stories. We try to find as much in the world. Possibly can, and we looked through the news of the day that you'll care about also your favorite country artists are always stopping by to hang out and share their lives and music, too, so wake up with a bunch of my friends on ninety eight point seven W. MC in Washington, DC, or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio APP. Welcome to invention a production of iheartradio. Hey Welcome to invention. My name is Robert. Lamb and I'm Joe. McCormick and Robert I know you WanNa talk about dnd before we get to the real subject. Well I don't know I was thinking about doing it last. We can go ahead and talk about it up front. Yeah. We'll in dungeons and dragons. These various Demon Lords, and they they rule over various sort of portions of the of the fiend population in the game, and they're to demon lords in particular that I was thinking about in regards to today's episode, and that that would be. An jubilee. So Saag Moi is the. Demon Lord of Fungi. The Queen Fun Guy, the master of decay and then opposing her. Ever at odds with her is jubilee, the faceless Lord God uses slimes and blobs all the losing nasty creatures of Dungeons and dragons, and yeah there they oppose each other their constant war with each other and some. Campaigns like their forces, and even there there in embodied forms do battle with one another, and it actually ties in a bit with this subject. We're talking about today of penicillin. Okay, so penicillin, the fungus that fights! I don't know. Would you call diseases slimes? Well I feel like jubilee being the demon. Lord of Oozes, and slimes kind of makes it the demon, Lord of of microbiology, as well and you know my groves and microbial illnesses so okay well so today we're going to be talking about penicillin. Maybe one of the great real weapons of Tavoy. Yes, but this this came up I. Think because we'd been talking about fungus on or other podcasts on stuff to blow your mind where we just finished recording a five part series on psychedelics, yeah, yeah, looking at Fungal psychedelics and ongoing research into how these substances could enhance our mental. Mental wellbeing in helping the treatment of psychological issues and one of our big take home that these guys could help save lives and improve the quality of human life, but it would not be the first or only fungi to do so because we can certainly look to various interactions between human health, the different fungi species and their use in traditional medicine we can point to various products including products of fermentation for instance including alcohol but there's an even better example of better living through fungi in that's penicillin. Right so today we're going briefly explored the invention of penicillin, which is often cited as. The first true antibiotic technology of course antibiotics are medications that treat infections by killing injuring or slowing the growth of bacteria and the body. Antibiotics are a class of what you would generally call antimicrobial drugs medicines that kill microbes that present a threat to the body of course and antibiotics generally fight bacterial infections, whereas you could have others like Antifungal that Fungal infections or antivirals that fight viral infections now, antimicrobials antibiotics are gigantic subject area that we're. We're of course not going to be able to get into every nook and cranny of the subjects, but we hope we can have a an interesting introductory introductory discussion. Maybe come back to antibiotic sometime again in the future because it's it's a broad invention that has lots of little invention tributaries throughout history. Yeah, but it is such a fascinating case to look at it and I think should make for a great episode of invention here because. For starters it's it's a twentieth century invention. Slash discovery off, and of course, the line between ambition discovery is a little bit gray. But we we can pinpoint it to nineteen twenty eight, and ultimately like rolled out by nineteen forty or so but so we can, we can look to it. We can look at the world before we can look at the world after with with the sort of clarity that we always have with the certainly older or more ancient inventions, exactly because we always like to ask the question on the show what came before the invention what what changed when this invention came on the scene and what became before widespread modern antibiotics was stupendous amounts of death and misery from infectious disease in blood poisoning I I was wondering like. Is it even possible? To get stats on what the world of infectious disease looked like before we had antibiotics around the mid twentieth century. Yeah I mean to a certain extent, a lot of the suffering is just incalculable you know especially, if you go back and sort of consider all of human history up to that point in the various factors that that influenced infectious disease and injury, you know the the eventually the rise of germ theory, but. This things like that the rise of cities and so forth, but but luckily yes, since it was such a reason invention, we have some pretty incredible stats on the matter. Suddenly. Thanks to this new miracle drug diseases that it simply ravage. The global population like syphilis could be cured. The shadow of lethal infection no longer hung at least as heavily over every scrape, injury and war wound. And with wounds, where often talking about Sepsis, which is a term that was used by hippocrates back in the fourth century, BC meaning blood, rod or blood poisoning. And he was referring more in generally I think to decay, but the term came to be applied to blood poisoning, which arises when the body's response to infection causes. Injury to its own tissue and organs. But just prior to the twentieth century, infectious diseases accounted for high morbidity and mortality rates around the world, even in the industrialized world, according to w a Adedeji in the treasurer called antibiotics from two thousand sixteen, the average life expectancy at birth was forty seven years forty, six forty eight years for men and women respectively, and this was due to the dangers of smallpox cholera. Diptheria pneumonia typhoid fever plague Turkey Laos's typhus, syphilis and host of other ailments that could afflict you. endearingly antibiotic Era that follow again a rising in the middle of the twentieth century, the the leading cause of death in the United States change from communicable diseases to noncommunicable diseases like Carter, cardiovascular disease, cancer and stroke, and the average life expectancy at birth rose to seventy eight point eight years, so the elderly were no longer a mere four percent of the population, but grow to become a whopping thirteen percent of the population. So we're talking about you know profound changes. Demographics based on this new this new invention. Yeah, the changes huge. We live in a world now where if you have access to high quality, modern medicine and a lot of people don't. Mind, but if you have access to high quality, modern science based medicine, and you can get antibiotics and and can get to a hospital or see a doctor. You very likely have a good chance to beat most of the Common Infectious Diseases that people get unless you have some kind of you know like another condition that exacerbates it or something before antibiotics. This was just not the people just died from diseases that you catch like diseases that are common for people to catch all the time, yeah or certain. Certain diseases like syphilis that were virtually uncurable you know, and and some of the the cures that were attempted were were pretty horrendous. You know in and had an generally did not work. You know talking about using mercury and so forth and do you mentioned before contamination of wounds? I mean this is just a huge thing. Just like a you know you might you might cut yourself while gardening, and you die from it. Yeah, heaven, forbid you undergo, say Medieval Gallstone, surgery or something like that yeah? By the way, I think tuberculosis has a you. Know is a good example to look at for some of these stats as well according to the CDC. TB was a leading cause of death in the US in nineteen, forty, prior to the rollout of antibiotic therapy in Nineteen, hundred, one, hundred, ninety, four of every hundred thousand us. Residents died from deep TB. Most residents of urban areas in nineteen hundred, the three leading causes of death in the US were pneumonia, tuberculosis and diarrhea, and interrupt us, which together with Diptheria caused one third of all deaths, and of these deaths, forty percent were among children aged less than five years old. Now to your point in not everybody has. Access to antibiotics that say and people enjoy in say Europe and the United States. Yet TB remains a the leading cause of death from an infectious disease in many parts of the world, particularly the developing world and some antibiotic treatments or antibiotic assisted treatments are more complicated and more difficult than others I mean I know the treatment for TB is not as say easy is around of just orally administered antibiotics that you might get for a standard bacterial infection right, but it suddenly was just a heralded rightfully so is is a miracle invention. When it came about you, I saw an image of a of a sign on a garbage. Can or mailbox from the Mid Twentieth Century Advertising that now you can get gonorrhea cured in in like four hours. Thanks to the you know these new developments in antibiotics you know. It can be difficult to put ourselves in that mindset, having grown up in the wake of antibiotics, or at least most of most people listening to this show I was just thinking about how many like us. Presidents died of infections of various kinds. That seems like that would be a very unusual thing to happen now, but like in the eighteen hundreds James Garfield got shot, but it wasn't the initial gunshot that killed him. He lived for like think weeks afterwards he got an infection in the wound. I think because they were digging around with dirty hands to try to get the bullet out of him, and he and they didn't have antibiotics of course when he got an infection, so he died. I think another. A US was William. Henry Harrison who I think. They think Dow died from probably like drinking, fecal contaminated water, and the White House yes, so many different injuries and infections were. Far More likely to be lethal with you know without modern antibiotics to step in and and aid in the fight. Now there were some things that were kind of like versions of antibiotics or antimicrobials from before the discovery of Penicillin in nineteen twenty eight, yeah, the best example from the period, just immediate immediately prior to penicillin would be the Safa'a, miser or the soulful drugs, and these were the first antibacterial used systematically, and they were synthesized in nineteen. Nineteen thirty two in the German laboratories of Bear AG. Now you might be thinking about the time line like wait a minute. Didn't we just say that penicillin was discovered in twenty eight, but it took a long time after the discovery of penicillins antibacterial properties for it to be made as a useful medical dry like it was one thousand, nine, hundred forty. Generally, that's the date you see for. When penicillin actually became a yeah, an actionable thing in Madison. So, yeah, before that we had the SOFA drugs and it they had a rocky start, but they did prove very effective in preventing wound infections during the second world, war they were used on both sides in the in the form of soulful pills and also sotho powders that would be sprinkled over wound so if you've ever watched A. some sort of a period piece, especially a war piece of the twentieth century, and you see somebody, sprinkling powder mover injury. That is what that's supposed to be soft drugs are they're not as effective as true antibiotics like penicillin. And there are a number of possible side effects that. Can take place, and it also can't be used to treat syphilis an and it also can't treat SOFA resistant infections now, of course, this is also a twentieth century invention so I was wondering. Did anybody come up with any version of antibiotics or Proto antibiotics? Before the Twentieth Century? We know that penicillin hadn't been discovered and isolated and made stable as a useful medicine, but were there any things like antibiotics are sort of precursors. Precursors of antibiotic, because in game of thrones right, they have penicillin. Don't they? Or they have some sort of fantasy penicillin I've never heard of that, don't they? Have something the the the the the masters would mention having to do with with Brad in mold or something, didn't they? I? Don't remember that I just remember people get cuts, and then they get infected indic-. Give him milk of the poppy I mean they have milk the poppy maybe. Our game of thrones our our our George. Martin readers left to right in on that, but I vaguely remember there being like allusion to something like some sort of mole based. Medicine that they were using. Let could be wrong. Well. I can't see that being something that's thrown in there as a little aside, but like isn't widely recognized for us. And it's interesting how that kind of parallels. Some interesting pieces of evidence for Proto Antibiotic Technology in the real world, even going back to ancient times so I won't look at the work of the emory university bio archaeologists George. Jr Mela goes. Who is now deceased I think he died in twenty fourteen but he's interest eight interesting scholar, and he discovered something very curious back in nineteen eighty, so the subject he was looking at was a set of human bones from ancient Nubia dating. Dating from between three fifty and five fifty C E, and so the the bones came from Nubia, which is a region of Africa along the Nile, river, but south of Egypt in what would be modern day Sudan, and what these bones showed was evidence that the people they belong to had been taking tetracycline now. Tetracyclene is not the same as penicillin, but it is an antibiotic. It can be used to treat all kinds of infections for minor problems like acne concert with some other drugs. Drugs two major diseases like play or to leukemia, or even syphilis and tetracycline works primarily binding to the Ribe, assumes of bacterial cells, ribes, zones or sort of the cellular factories they build proteins that are needed in order for organisms to live and grow, and by binding to the Ri-. Zome tetracycline makes it difficult for the bacterium to create new proteins. It was patented in the nineteen fifties and became widely used in the second half of the Twentieth Century So, what was it? It doing in the bones of Nubian. People who live like seventeen hundred years ago, well Arm Lago sin colleagues followed archaeological clues to identify the source of the tetracycline, which was beer of course, beer is another one of Ultimately, it falls under zagged Moi's domain. Oh. Yeah, though this is different. Because tetracycline is not made from a fungus, it is actually an antibacterial. That is a byproduct of some bacteria. Oh, okay, so it's bacterial byproduct, but essentially okay, so technically it's duplex. Point to jubilee this jubilee versus Gibb Lakes Right. I mean that's going to happen with your demon. Lord I introduced lean warfare so beer is made from fermented grain of course and the fermented grain in this ancient. Beer apparently contained the bacteria streptomycetes, which creates Tetra cycling as a byproduct, but a question of course so like were these traces of tetracycline in Nubian mummy bones, a sign of like a bad batch of beer, got contaminated by accident, or were these people deliberately culturing their beer with antibiotic producing bacteria, and so to look at a study from the American Journal of Physical Anthropology from twenty. Ten of which are Malaga's was one of the authors the authors examined tetracycline in skeletal remains from throughout this period, and the evidence indicates that the ancient Nubians were consuming these antibiotics on a regular basis in the authors suggest that these ancient people. People were intentionally producing this medicine and this links up with some evidence from other ancient peoples, nearby such as the Egyptians that sometimes apparently used beer as a treatment for conditions like gum, disease, and other types of infections in the author, even found evidence of a four year old child, whose skull contained lots of tetracycline from this beer, suggesting that the child had been fed high doses of this like antibiotic beer, perhaps in an attempt to cure an illness, maybe the illness that killed him, and so the levels of tetracycline residue found in the bones. These mummies is only explicable. If they were repeatedly consuming this antibiotic in their diet. And there are actually other archaeological remains that show evidence of antibiotic use in the ancient world for example samples taken from the Famara of skeletons from the Dock Leo ACIS in Egypt from people who live sometime in the late Roman period, also showed evidence of the same thing of tetracycline and the Diet and this consumption of tetracyclene is consistent with other evidence, showing a relatively rate of infectious disease in Sudanese Nubia during that time period. And a lack of bone infections apparent in these remains from the this acis in Egypt so. It really does look like people in ancient Africa discovered a somewhat effective form of antibiotics centuries before the discovery of penicillin and the isolation and mass production of focused anti-microbial medicines now to be clear. I think like a beer that had tetracycline content from from being cultured with bacteria, like this probably would not be as potent and focused and effective as like the isolated compounds in the drugs you take orally or through injection would be today right, but it would have some effect and. And it appeared that it probably was somewhat effective in fighting infectious disease right, and of course they wouldn't know exactly what they had here, but they knew they had some sort of beer that seemed to some sort of holy liquid that that that had some sort of curative property to it exactly fascinating discovery from the ancient world, another interesting fact tetracyclene is relatively unique in that it leaves clear signatures in the bones that can be discovered long after the person has died so. Don't leave these clear markers like this that make it easy for archaeologists to detect, so you have to wonder like, are they? Were there other cases of ancient peoples in various places in times using some kind of antibiotics or bacterial or fungal cultures to treat diseases like these ancient Nubian people were but that we don't have evidence of because it doesn't show up in the bones. tetracycline does yeah, you could have just been lost to history. I was reading an interesting paper from frontiers in microbiology in two thousand, ten by a Rostom on Minova called a brief history of the antibiotic Era Lessons Learned and challenges for the future, and Aminov points out this unique quality of tetracycline. tetracycline and notes just what I was basically just saying like how easy it would be for evidence of other uses of antibiotics in the ancient world to be lost to us, though he he also mentioned that there are other anecdotes from history about like cultural traditions that show Proto antibiotic technologies in these other examples would include red soils found in Jordan that are used for treating skin infections. It's been discovered that these soils contain some antibiotic producing organisms. I'd guess they're probably also some major risks in applying soil to wounds, and then also plants used in traditional Chinese medicine that actually do have some antimicrobial properties. Yeah, because one thing we have to remember is like the Modern Anti. Effort is ultimately based in going out into the natural world in finding these weapons that already exist. Yeah, and then reusing them in adapting them of for Human Madison and you know this is essentially what is going on in traditional medicines as well, and it also means that are weapons out there that either have not been discovered all especially in particularly vibrant ecosystem, some of which of course of are threatened all the more reason to. US to not decimate say the rain forests or the deep ocean right? But then there are also things that may have been discovered to some degree in the past, but have been forgotten will yeah that that does seem possible, because despite all evidence of ancient sort of Proto antibiotic technologies, the worldwide rates of death from infectious disease in the periods, for which we have data right before the invention of modern antibiotics shows that humans generally did not have effective antimicrobials in that period, so maybe some of this knowledge was lost over time all right well on that note, we're GonNa take our first break, but when we come back, we're going to return to the mold research, the nineteenth century, and ultimately to our key inventor here Alexander Fleming. This episode is brought to you by IBM Today. The world looks pretty different, but already new problems are being met with new thinking. Researchers are using supercomputers to discover treatments faster retailers are turning to the cloud restock shelves more quickly. Teachers are working with ai to rethink the classroom. It's not everything, but it's a start. Let's put smart to work. See how IBM is helping IBM dot com slash cove nineteen this. This. Episode is brought to you by IBM Today the world looks pretty different, but already new problems are being met with new thinking. Researchers are using supercomputers to discover treatments faster. Retailers are turning to the cloud to restock shelves more quickly. Teachers are working with ai to rethink the classroom. It's not everything, but it's a start. Let's put smart to work. See how IBM is helping IBM, dot. com slash cove nineteen. We're back now. We'll get to Alexander Fleming in a minute with the discovery of penicillin, but Alexander. Fleming was not the first person to notice that there might be some anti microbial properties of certain fungi. That's right. There was there was work going on in this area of prior to Fleming Fleming was was You know picking up on some of it, and and really just overall. Just our understanding of a fungi in general was was advancing as we mentioned era, psychedelics episodes There was a time where we did not recognize fun guy as being separate from the realm of plants right before we realized that it was a kingdom, unto itself in the Kingdom that has a little more in common with the Animal Kingdom than it does with the plant kingdom. And little a lot of talented folks working in this area, but one of them. Might come as a prize to a lot of people and that's because her name was beatrix potter. The bunny rabbit, a bunny rabbits. Yes, okay off the Bunny Rabbit fame. It was kind of a curious coincidence, because I was reading about all this, and then just randomly on the stuff to blow your mind discussion module, which is the facebook group for people listening to the show to discuss episode, someone brought up the trix potter in regards to something to do with squirrels because there's a lot of squirrel. Squirrel content in the discussion module, and yeah, they brought a Beatrix Potter and Beatrix. Potter actually ties in to this episode a little bit, because in addition to being the author and illustrator of the you know the tale of Peter Rabbit and associated British animal tales. She was also a naturalist with a great deal of interest in astronomy, and most importantly of all my college. So she produced a lot of beautiful scientific watercolor. Illustrations of various fun guy in her neck of the British would. As part of her studies, and if you studied a lot of local molds as well and did illustrations of them. She's ultimately very interesting character. That was Unfortunately she lives in time in which the sexism of the day prevented her from reaching the heights of in the natural sciences that she would have been afforded later on, but in a lot of her work is also just being I think rediscovered and appreciated for the first time. you know in recent decades, but the yeah, the next. Next time someone busts out some the trix Potter A. Remember. This is not just a an individual who wrote some fanciful tales, and illustrated them like she was just she was out there, studying the natural world, and in Crete in in advancing our understanding of my college, she was sort of a looking into the hidden life of nature in multiple ways, yeah. I, see some sources that are asking the question. Okay was Beatrix Potter who she a true naturalist, a true natural scientists over she just to. An amateur, that was just very interested in these things, and it's kind of a couple of question. Ask when you consider the limitations. In the Victorian era for women but I think undoubtedly she she I would side with the fact that she was a natural scientist I, mean she? Or co-authored one paper. If I remember correctly so I'm I'm gonNA give her giver. Full credit was about fungi. It was a mushroom. In particular I, forget was one of those related to the Russillo Mushrooms, but I forget which species. But. Basically, she was you know she was kind of up against the the Patriarchy for the most part though. We'll. Is it time to turn to penicillin itself yes? Let's turn to this. The key discovery here and our inventor are discover Alexander Fleming. Okay So, who was Alexander Fleming? Fleming was born in eighteen, eighty. One died in nineteen, fifty five, and he was a Scottish biologist physician, microbiologist and pharmacologist. He was the son of a farmer, and he observed and studied a great deal of death from Sepsis in World War One. He observed that while antiseptics worked well at the surface, a deeper wounds, a sheltered bacteria from the effects of things like sulfur drugs right so if you have the kind of superficial wound, you could clean it off pretty good, and that might help protect you from from bacterial infection, but if you have a deep wound and say like dirty stuff, bits of soil and other you know just crud gets lodged deep in there. You might not be able to clean the wound out very well right and that's exactly the kind of stuff that's going to get lodged in there especially with your war wounds where there is a. Stab or or a deep cut or a bullet entering the body. We'll makes me think about The when we were reading about the idea of Stegosaurus, perhaps weapon I. I mean not consciously, but stegosaurus perhaps Having an adaptation to weaponize infection against its enemies by dragging its Dagga miser spikes through the Dung right exactly yeah, having dirty Bagga miser spikes, and then when it wax the T. rex in the crotch with the that gets infected later, and eliminates a Predator from the area and the the the the predators of the day would not have had access to antibiotics, certainly not or even that beer from the. We mentioned earlier so. Flip Fleming was devoted himself to research he Prior to penicillin. He discovered a lifetime naturally occurring enzyme and mucus in other parts of the body than inhibits bacteria, so he was already. You know in this area looking for for new new breakthroughs new discoveries. But then his biggest breakthrough, all is this discovery of penicillin, and it's truly one of the more amazing invention slash discovery moments from history, because while he was exactly the right person to make the discovery, and then deserves all the credit he was given. The key moment comes down really too pure luck, and we simply don't know if anyone else would have made the discovery if he had not been there to observe it, okay, so what happened with this discovery so around nineteen twenty seven, or so he had engaged himself in studying STAPHYLOCOCCI or Or staff, and he had stacks of Petri. DISHES DISH SPECIMENS IN HIS LAB, which I've seen described as being kind of an untidy lab, so imagine all these likes Petri dishes, full staff all over the place notes, and so forth, and so the key moment comes in September of one, thousand, nine, hundred, twenty eight right right, so he has these staff petri dishes out, and then he leaves them for the weekend. Go on holiday with his family any when he comes back, he expects you just see how they've progressed. See how they've grown. But he finds that they haven't grown. In fact, they have died. Something has ravaged his specimens. Yeah, now it's this is one of those stories where it gets very narrative is so you do have to wonder if some details of it or embellish to and how the story may have changed over time, but this is the way the story has been passed down and and I think it seems to be largely basically true the way that I've seen. The story often told us that. He comes in. There's a blob of mold growing in one of the plates and all around the mold. There's this halo of nothingness where you normally what you would see is that if you got a plate for culturing bacteria, there would be these little dots and blobs on the on the plate. But instead there's this halo where there's no bacteria bacterial deadzone zone now, of course we know staphylococcus is is a bacterium group linked to all kinds of human disease and misery. staph infections right if this mold could kill staff that seems medically relevant. So what happened here well? He He. He realized that he was dealing with some sort of a fungi. So he luckily, there was an ecologist with a lab just below. Fleming on the floor below his lab. Man by the name of CJ La Touche and in fact it's also been suspected that the mold and question that killed. Fleming's staff might have drifted up from a Lotta Shays lab, adding an extra element of weird chance to this whole situation. Okay, so perhaps his samples were contaminated by stuff from the lab next door down a floor, right? That's one that's not. That's not a theory that's presented in every source does pop up fairly frequently so specifically. This mold was what would later be identified as a strain of penicillin, no Tottenham and it was obvious that it's secreted something that prevented staph bacteria from growing and so fleming followed up in studying the secretion. This mold juice says I've seen it called. He he found that it didn't only prevent the growth of staphylococcus. It worked against common bacteria like streptococcus or Meningococcus, and and the back also against the bacterium that causes diptheria interestingly while Fleming did see applications for penicillin and curing disease. He mentioned them briefly in the paper he published in Nineteen, twenty nine about this discovery about a the the antibacterial properties of Penicillin he primarily thought of this secretion of penicillin as a tool for bacteriologist to sort strains of bacteria, independent, sensitive versus non penicillin, sensitive species, and the that that could be useful in the lab. Yeah, so he sometimes criticised is is really not understanding completely what he had here not. Not Having the vision to see where it could go well. I don't think he completely understood, but he did indicate that this could possibly have uses in medicine right so fleming and his assistance, Stewart, crowder and Frederick. Ridley tried for years to turn this accidental discovery into a stable isolated compound that would be useful and this. This was a problem because like you've got this secretion from the mold molds making some juice. It's getting stuff wet with this this stuff that that that fights bacterial growth, but they couldn't isolate the compound that was causing the effect and stabilize it and make it make it generally useful so to quote from. Paper that I mentioned earlier quote for twelve years after his initial observation Alexander Fleming was trying to get chemists interested in resolving persisting problems with the purification and stability of the active substance and supplied the penicillin strain to anyone requesting it, but he really he could never cracked the nut ultimately, and he didn't finally make this discovery of the process for for stabilizing and isolating the compound, and by Nineteen Forty Aminov writes that Fleming finally abandoned quest, but fortunately it was right about that time that they capable team at purdue university, including the researchers Howard. Howard, Florey and Ernst, chain or Chine. They picked up on this research and they. They kicked off the research project that would eventually breakthrough on this and there are all these interesting story so of course this while World War. Two is going on right so research conditions are not ideal and They're all these stories about how they turn to their lab at Oxford into this giant incubation center, or sort of factory for mold like employed all these lab assistants who were these women who had been referred to in some sources as the penicillin girls. And they would work to T-. They would work to grow the penicillin in buckets and tubs, and basically every container that they could And eventually they did. They were able to isolate and stabilize this compound so to quote from an Article from the American Chemical Society. In nineteen forty fluorine that'd be Howard Florey carried out vital experiments, showing that penicillin could protect mice against infection from deadly. STREPTOCOCCI, then, on February, twelfth, Nineteen, forty, one, a forty three year old policeman Albert. Alexander became the first recipient of the Oxford Penicillin. He'd scratched the side of his mouth while pruning roses, and developed a life, threatening infection with huge abscesses, affecting his eyes face in lungs, penicillin was injected, and within days he made a remarkable recovery well, but unfortunately, despite this recovery which lasted for a few days, they ran out of the drug and. and Alexander eventually got worse again, and he died, and I was reading that they were so desperate to cure him that after Alexander urinated while on his antibiotic course, they would collect the urine and try to extract the penicillin. He excreted again so that they could be re administered to him. and I should mention also that the the process that the Oxford team relied on to extract purify the penicillin and the mold juice was led by another important biochemist guy named Norman Heatley, but this case of Albert Alexander shows an obvious early problem they. which was the problem of scale? They simply lacked the ability to make penicillin at the scale. It that would be needed to treat even one person let alone. The whole world the strain of mold that they were using didn't make enough of it, and this led to the search for other species of the same fungal genus penicillin, which would maybe they thought produced higher concentrations of the penicillin filtration, and I was reading an interesting article. Article by the University of Michigan Physician and Medical Historian Howard Markel that tells a really interesting story I'd never heard about this so the story goes like this. Apparently, one of the assistants at the Oxford lab showed up for work one day in nineteen, forty, one with a cantaloupe that she bought at the market, because it was covered in a weird looking golden mold, which is great because this would be the one case where somebody. Somebody is picking over the fresh produce produce to like find the moldy one but the mold on this cantaloupe turned out to be a strain of penicillin called concilium Chris, ogsm which Markle says naturally produced at least about two hundred times as much penicillin as the original strain that they've been studying and then later, markel writes the same strain was subjected to mutagenic processes in the lab, so like bombarding with x rays and stuff to. To produce a mutated strain that would make up two thousand times as much penicillin as the old school fleming mold so by nineteen forty one penicillin is on its way to becoming viable medicine all right on that note we're GonNa. Take a quick break when we come back. We're going to look at the impact of penicillin and we're GONNA. Look at it, you know and I think a fun way by considering really interesting. What if? I heart radio state farm know that the graduation stage is the first of many, and while grads may not be walking across one this year. They can get the send off. They've always dreamed of with our new podcast commencement, featuring inspiring speeches from the biggest names like John Legend I'm honored to have the chance to speak to to share in this special mom Katie couric. You'll need some very important life skills to move forward. Perhaps the most important one is. Is Resilience Chelsea handler. Dare to do things that scare you if you can embrace the unknown and fully jump into what life has to offer you, there will be much to celebrate and much to enjoy and Kasa reflect on the work you've done and celebrate moving into your new face. These iconic names all coming together to celebrate you. The class of two thousand twenty listened iheartradio's new podcast commencement brought to you by state. Farm speeches are now available on. APP or wherever you get your podcast and remember state farm will be there for this stage and every stage after like a good neighbor, state farm is there after all you've been through the class of twenty twenty deserves a proper sendoff, which is why I Heart Radio Doritos brings you commencement the podcast featuring speeches dedications from icons. We admire most here from Halsey. We've shown the world while we can be sold a lot of things, we will never buy a dream and pit bull. A racist standup you guys generation make a difference. You guys a generation. Go change the world. techy G John Legend Kesse, Angie Martinez Khalid and many many more all have something to say to you. The Amazing Class of two thousand twenty choose firmly choose willfully, and she's confidently listened to radios new podcast commencement now on the iheartradio, APP, or wherever you get podcasts with Special Doritos Valedictorian episode where Rita's takes graduation speeches to another level by naming five Valedictorians giving them each fifty thousand dollars in tuition assistance and sharing their speeches with the world. You are the ones that's GonNa. Make a difference. All right we're back. So we often don't don't do a lot of what ifs on Invention doubt I thought we can to certain extent, but I mean a lot of times. It's a harder case to be made like what if this had not been invention in did right bill or discovered, because in most cases you can, you can, you can look at the data you can look at other individuals where like the Wright brothers had not invented the airplane I'd not you know created that that I prototype? That really showed what? What was possible like clearly there were there were other individuals in the world working on this someone would have cracked if Rontgen had not discovered rays in eighteen ninety whatever year it was, somebody else would have discovered them pretty soon right, but when it comes to penicillin potentially, it's a little more complicated than that. I I ran across a cool article on the topic titled What Filming had not discovered penicillin, and this was a published in the Saudi Journal of biological sciences by all Harvey at all. The authors admit that that certainly if Fleming had made the discovery, someone else might have in the years to follow. Probably you know in the early nineteen forties. They estimate so we could still well have have arrived in antibacterial age. However, they also explore the possibility that we might have simply not made the discovery at all, and it's an interesting argument, so I wonder I. WanNa read a quote from the paper here. Quote of course penicillin could have been discovered. The day after Fleming missed the opportunity, but in reality there was no parallel discovery. The took place as a result anyone taking an interest in penicillin during the nineteen thirties did so in the knowledge of Fleming's work. In particular, the seems no reason to believe that Florey and chain would have discovered penicillin since their work depended on Fleming's famous paper and their access to one of. Of his penicillin, producing cultures, so that's referring to the thing I mentioned about how how a Fleming in his assistance were just like sharing the penicillin strain out with everybody like hey, can you figure out what's going on with this? Can you isolate secretion or the compound in the secretion? Yeah, so think about there was there was so far as these researchers can determine you know other effort out there that would have. In struck paydirt in the absence of Fleming's research, the Oxford. Group wouldn't have been looking for it. Someone Walks Walkman. The father of modern and Botox sometimes called as we made several key discoveries later was also inspired by Fleming so. He has one of these cases where like he seems to be the epicenter. Not only him, but just then the the the the seemingly chance encounter in his lab that day that that we're suddenly, this halo appears in the Petri dish, and that gives birth to a to a whole class of other discoveries right because not all antibiotics are derived from penicillin penicillin, class of antibiotics become sort of like one sort of grandfather class, but then there are all these other classes that are discovered during this golden age of antibiotics that takes place over the next few decades. Just additional medical breakthroughs that would not have occurred without penicillin such as organ transplant. But then there's also the question like what would've what would have happened in the the wider world because again, penicillin comes online during the Second World War, and so that you can easily ask what would have happened if allied troops had not benefited from access to antibiotics at D Day I've never thought about that in fact I. before looking at this episode, I probably would not have known the answer to whether or not. They had accessed antibiotics well. Penicillin production was actually swiftly scaled up just to make sure that allied soldiers had access to it at d day. So, there is a legitimate question to be asked. Might the allies not have won the Second World War without penicillin? Factors consider there I. Don't think it's quite a Gotcha question, but it's it's worth thinking about. The authors argue that without flemming's discovery would have had to depend on the SOFA drugs. An imperfect alternative to a true antibiotics and these. These were described in the nineteen thirties and Fleming worked with him prior to his discovery. But without penicillin in play, the authors argue that sulphur drugs might have become the standard and even push the discovery of true. Antibiotics well beyond the nineteen sixties, and this is also true of the Axis powers had risen in victorious in World War Two because the access powers depended on sulphur drugs and their their key treatment Point out. Quote, despite the fact that the Germans and their allies where at a considerable disadvantage the drugs did a relatively good job at reducing battle casualties, so not to just completely cast, aside the effectiveness of soft drugs, but still they were not as effective as true antibiotics. It's weird to think about the political implications of specific medical technologies. Yeah, and then when you get down to the curious cases of individuals. Yeah, it also gets. Gets interesting where he touched on presidents who died that would have lived potentially if there had been penicillin around right, and so they point out that that soft drugs saved Churchill's life in nineteen, forty three, when he was suffering from pneumonia as well as FDR's life a, but there's also evidence by the way that actual penicillin may have saved Hitler's life following the stuff Enberg assassination attempt of July twentieth nineteen forty, four. This was the plot that tried to kill Hitler with a briefcase bomb. Right like where the some of the officers conspired against him, and they put briefcase bomb in the room with him, and it did explode, but he was protected by a heavy table that prevented it from killing him. He was obviously injured I think he had like nerve damage after. So be the idea here is that perhaps his injuries were treated by by penicillin. Yeah, that's it. At least an argument has been made that they had access to penicillin. I'm unclear on how they would have obtained it. You know through. Maybe there's a spy story. There I don't know. But the the idea being well, if he had if he had didn't have access to penicillin, then perhaps he would have died, and that arguably ended the war in a different manner forcing us to re. An entirely different postwar world. So again we're playing with with what ifs here and also we my understanding is. We don't know for sure that Hitler had access to penicillin following that assassination attempt, but there is the overall scenario of the allies having penicillin and having this ramped up penicillin production leading today. Yeah, that is really interesting. I. I'd never contemplated that before. now something that we do often have to think about, and we should probably acknowledge at the end here before we move on. Maybe this'll be something to come back in. Doing the future with A. New Invention episode is the idea of a possible end of the antibiotics I mean this is kind of scary thing to imagine like what if the antibiotics age is essentially a period in history that has a beginning in an end. Because as we you've. You've probably heard about this. Many disease, causing bacteria and other disease, causing microbes are overtime evolving antibiotic resistance are evolving to to be powerful enough to survive are antimicrobial drugs and I think specifically one thing that's exacerbating. This is overuse of antibiotics and people, not taking the entire course of antibiotics when they're given them. Yeah, because again to come back to the Zagged Moya Jubilee. War Scenario you know it is an ongoing battle, and the the forces evolve. To to better deal with the threats on each side and so. We're we're we're? We're seeing this occur. We're seeing the the overuse of antibiotics producing. Strains that are that are resistant, and it's reversing some of the therapeutic miracles of the last fifty years, and and underscores the importance of disease prevention in addition to treatment, and that means not not abandoning some of our other vital tools for human health like vaccination. We should come back and revisit vaccination. Maybe even various different vaccinations in the future. Yeah, another thing to keep in mind that. I don't think we mentioned earlier. was that the nine hundred forty nine hundred seventy s? Are are considered like the Golden, age of antibiotic, Research Yeah, and we haven't seen at least if you haven't seen any new classes of antibiotics emerged since that time period right now there have been new developments in antibiotics, but I think the way I've read. It is that they're generally modification. Houses of Antibiotics Sorta like we. We haven't. We haven't found anything radically new. Since then. Basically, we reached out into the natural war between. Between Fungi, and the microbial legions and we, we stole some of the tools. We stole some of that Promethean fire. We day we keep adapting that fire to our own purposes, but we haven't. We haven't found any new weapon from that world, and and then they're ongoing war continues. To Change. I'd be interested A. Do you out there? You the listener you work in medical research, or are you working on areas involved in antibiotic resistance, the future of anti-microbials I please get in touch with us. I would like to hear about that. What what are you doing in your work? And what does the future like to you on the inside? Absolutely we would We would love to hear from you again. We've only scratched the surface here. Though thanks to antibiotics, hopefully that scratch will not. Get the life threatening infection. There's a lot more history here, but but hopefully what we've done here. Today is of course, highlight just a very very cool story from the history of inventions and discoveries in human history, and outlined the impact of of one of the greatest inventions or discoveries again. However, you want to classify it from the twentieth century yeah totally. In the meantime. If you WANNA check out other episodes of invention, you can check out our homepage invention pod dot com, and that will have all the episode right there. If you want to support the show and we would appreciate it. If you did support the show, there are a few simple things you can do. Tell friends about it, you know. Tell Tell Your family members about invention and. And, then if you have the ability to do so rate and review US wherever you got this podcast huge thanks as always to are excellent audio producer Maya Coal. If you'd like to get in touch with us to let us know feedback on this episode or any other to suggest a topic for the future just to say hello, you can email us at contact at invention pod dot com. Invention is production iheartradio radio for more podcasts from iheartradio. The iheartradio APP apple podcasts wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Here's something. Good is a new show from the Seneca. Women podcast network and iheartradio each day. We aspire to bring the good news. The silver lining the glass half full because there is good happy the world everywhere every day. We just need to look for and share it. Here's something. Good is a short daily show. That offers positive stories, helpful suggestions and shared experiences to inform and inspire you every day. Listen to hear something good on the iheartradio, APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows subscribe now. October sixteenth, Nineteen seventy-two to Congressman Vanish on small plane in Alaska. Despite a massive search. They're never found. The case goes cold. That is until I. Start Researching it. I'm standing right. Portage Pass and Alaska my name is John. Wall Zach and what I found is one of the strangest stories you've never heard. Did he indicate what was in the suitcase? He said it was a bomb. So join me as I travel from. To the Arctic Circle trying to crack this case. Listen to missing in Alaska on the iheartradio. APP Apple podcasts or wherever you find your favorite shows.

penicillin Alexander Fleming IBM United States Oxford Penicillin Sepsis zagged Moi syphilis tetracycline Albert Alexander Red Hat IBM smart bobby Oxford Lamb tuberculosis James Garfield Robert I
Ladies & Germs, Meet The Supervillain Superbugs!

Wow In the World

31:50 min | 2 years ago

Ladies & Germs, Meet The Supervillain Superbugs!

"Before we start the show two quick things number one. Wow. In the world has been nominated for best kids and family podcast in the first ever iheart podcast awards, and it's up to you to pick the winner. Grownups for more info on how to show the you heart. Well, visit I heart podcast awards dot com. That's I heart podcast awards dot com. Voting is open. Now. Number two, calling all inventor Ito's you have through this Friday, November second to send your invention for our adventure tool kit contest, one lucky winner will have their gadget Gizmo or tool put to use in an upcoming new episode of wow in the world this December. And I gotta say are totally wowed by the bunker balls creations that have come in so far more info on how to enter can be found at tinker cast dot com slash in. Ben torito's. That's it. Now, let's get on with the show. What? Day for a little gardening. Let me turn on old garden hose here. There we go some for you, MS petunia and for you, Mr. hiked range. Oh, we're thirsty today. Aren't we? Morning mindy. Morning. Are you? Okay. Mindy? Fine. Think my harmonica broke my fault your harm on Akot. Let me just. Yep. Still pitch perfect. Do not here. Little medical research ethical research home, India. I'm just doing some light gardening. Look look here. Everything is in bloom. I've got some I drain ges. I've got some tulips friendly flowers. There's some kids. Donut tree planted earlier this year, still hasn't sprouted. Do you? Do you? Remember, what kind of curios we used? I think it was whole wheat out. Well, there you go. Holy curios. Always bloom late. If you say, so, hey, wait a minute. Why did you think I was doing medical research? Well, my first clue was that white lab coat. You're wearing Minia always wear a lab coat when I garden, of course, you do. But second of all I was just reading this new scientific study that says that the next medical breakthrough could be found in the dirt. But neath. The dirt beneath our feet, you mean like like this stuff yet living inside that eight handful of dirt or millions of tiny microscopic life forms called teary. Yes. Of course, bacteria bacteria are those tiny little organisms that live almost everywhere on planet earth, Ed from our oceans to the soil, even in our own guts, hold the phone guy. Roz Beck curia in Mike God almost twenty nine trillion in you alone. Mindy Twenty-nine trillion hang on a second. I gotta write this down. Okay. Let's see here. Carry the one. I got it. Twenty nine trillion is twenty nine with two people twelve zeroes after it exactly and twenty nine trillion bacteria live inside of you and another twenty nine trillion live inside of million everyone else. And so on. Bacteria comes in all shapes and sizes too. Sometimes they're helpful. Oh, yeah. Like, how 'Bacterial can help turn milk into yogurt rights or some of the bacteria in our guts that help keep us healthy that's nice of them. But there are some bacterias that are bad for us and these kinds of bacteria often infect us with diseases and can make us sick. How dare you bacteria? But since the nineteen forties. We've been using a special type of medicine called antibiotics to help us fight off these nasty bacterial bugs, right antibiotics. That's what this new research is about really, really. But I I think we need a crash course, antibiotics and guy Roz this crash course, antibiotics will give me the opportunity. I've been waiting for to try out. My new home theater system. Home theater. Her system. Oh, yeah. Reggie helped me set it up last weekend. Five point one surround sound for K display. There's even a machine that shoots popcorn right into your mouth. That's he'll timesaver telling me. Okay. What? What what why do you always do that Mindy? Talk to yourself as you walk. Oh, well or run. Basically do anything. Well, how else would I know what I was doing. Okay here. We are just needed kick in the door year. You could probably save yourself. A lot of time from having to bake a new gingerbread door every few days if you just stopped kicking them all in the last time, I ate my way through the door. I got sick. So where's this brand? New home theater of yours. Right. This way. Just follow me guy. Arise o hate before. We start. You wanna snack for the movie movie? Wait a minute. What is a movie have to do with antibiotics? Oh, it came with the system. What did the entire history of antibiotics the entire history of antibiotics came with your home theater system? I knew crazy coincidence. You can see that again. Crazy coincident Indies. Okay. So you wanna movie snack or what do you have any kale chips? No kale chips. But I can't scoops a man as into a cone for, you know, thanks. See here got some gravy to munch on during the movie munch on gravy during a movie guy rise you second through a stroke. I think I'll pass on the movie stacks Mindy. Or for me? Okay. Guy rise. Now, I need you to squeeze right through that door. And then you'll be in my home theater. Okay. Through doggy door. It's only a doggy door. If you have a dog, which I do not so come on you can get through there. You're small take deep breath and squeeze your way through be right behind you. Squeezed? I thought I'm gonna give you a little shove ready on the count of three one two three. It wasn't too bad heart coming into right behind you. Mindy step? What do you think of my home theater? Hugh could fit like three hundred people in here. I thought maybe it's a little too much. But then Reggie was like, please. I wanna have all my friends over to watch some old movie called the birds, and I was like this is for the birds. Okay, fine. Reggie you always get your way, this is so cool Mindy. Mindy? I'm back here guy Roz in the projector booth. Somebody's gotta run this bad. Boy, right. Boot up build projects are here. Should be business now. Okay. Hello and grandma Jeep or the Antar. Thank you for joining us today for updates on upcoming movies special deals and discounts on food. Please ask one of our attendance for information on how to sign up for. Okay, fine. Tonight's Bill will be antibiotic a history running commentary from yours. Truly running commentary sit back and relax as we take you through the history of molecular medicine. The year is nineteen twenty eight and Dr Alexander Fleming. A famous bacterial. Chemist? A famous bacterial gist. Bacter- lot numbers bacteriologist. Does this all night? Hang on a second guy Roz, Dr Alexander Fleming, famous bacteria back back Scott back ya. Are you trying to say bacteriologist they had? They had at that time. But you did mean a bacteriologist, right? A scientist who studies bacteria. Yeah. That's what I was trying to say. The movie back who's that back to the film? Win Vander returned home from his summer vacation to enjoy the Scottish. Found that his lab was a complete mess is a complete miss. And there he discovered that a mold called tennis Cillian datum had contaminated or poisoned all of his Petri dishes. Petri dishes, and many Petri dishes are those little discs of plastic or glass that scientists put bacteria and other things on. So they can look at them under the microscope. You got a guy Roz and when he put one of these moldy Petri dishes under the microscope. He noticed the penicillin mold had completely stopped the growth of the bacteria that he already had on that Petri dish, and what type of bacteria was that Mindy? It was a 'Bacterial called. Mindy isn't that a deadly disease, technically, it's a big family of bacteria guy, Roz and just like in most families? There are some members that are totally fine. But others, well, let's just say they're the kinds that can be a little cuckoo for cocoa pops. If you know what I mean to me, like, cure, and Mojo EAC, but unlike my aunt, Mojo, these guys don't stay out singing karaoke till three in the morning. Instead, the calls all kinds of problems for us humans everything from food poisoning skin infections. But you're right. They can sometimes turn deadly especially before Alexander Fleming's discovery high can imagine. Because before the discovery Venta biotechs things as simple as a paper cut or a scraped knee could be deadly because in wounds could let infectious bacteria life stuff. Exactly. Which is why Alexander Fleming's discovery was such a huge deal. So what happened next? Well. He spent the next few months just dealing away reading more and more of this tennis Ilian, mold twin toil toil toil toil and eventually he discovered that this mold could be used to create medicine that could not only stop staphylococci, but all sorts of other infectious bacterial diseases as well we aiding ruled first antibiotic medicine, cool it. Tennis in it. But that's not the end of story. It isn't not even close. Just find the fast forward button here. Wait a minute. New said you had the entire history of -biotics. I didn't think you literally had the entire one hundred years on. Oh, yeah. I got everything from that day. Alexander fleming. Found a worm and his apple. The woman to us talking about antibiotics in your backyard just a few minutes ago. What? Always wear a lab coat when I got of course, you do. But second what's too far? Let me just hit the rewind button here. Stop it around nineteen forty one. There wrote this way, so very good. Who's that Mindy that guy Roz is Dr Howard Laurie? He's just showing Mr. Albert Alexander into his lab. Oh, Albert Alexander. I know him. He's the first person who was ever treated with antibiotics. He got ripped by a rose thorn in his garden, and then his cut got an bet did with staphylococci bacteria from Fleming's lab. Yeah. And even though Alexander Fleming had been able to combat small microscopic doses of staphylococci in his lab to treat a whole person. That would take a lot more mold. Oh my gosh. Monier look at flory's lab. It's covered in bottles. Flasks tubes of wait. Wait. What is that that? My friend is beautiful one hundred percent organic certified fresh mould mould fax disgusting. And look flurries lab is completely covered in the stuff. I know right. Turns out any two thousand leaders or five hundred twenty eight gallons of mold just to get enough penicillin to treat one person five hundred and twenty eight gallons Mindy that's like three hot tubs worth of mold yet in all or just one guy or doubt. So obviously they had to find a better way to make this much penicillin, obviously. And that better way came in the form of. Cantaloupe cantaloupe yet and for this. We're gonna need to fast forward again. Eighteen forty one. Hey, who's that walking into flurries lab now? Oh, that's his laboratory assistant Mary hunt. And look she's just returned from the market with a cantaloupe. Just in time for brunch and growing on that cantaloupe is a very special kind of mole. More mold moral guy Roz, but the fungus found invisible produced two hundred times as much penicillin as that fungus. Alexander Fleming discovered. How a lot of mold and that's not even the best part with a little bit of tinkering. They were able to make this fungus produce one thousand times as much penicillin as Fleming's original discovery. So that means they were now able to make enough of it to treat people exact torito's guy rise as they say the rest is and history. Wow. What a movie, and you know, what it gets me thinking? Oh, yeah. Since that first antibiotic penicillin made its way to our hospitals almost eighty years ago, we've made so many more medical discoveries and developed a whole bunch more antibiotics. Yeah. In so much. So that when people have access to doctors and medicine bacterial infections are pretty much thing of the past. I mean, nobody freaks out about getting a deadly infection from paper cut anymore, and it's probably also made surgery Alexi for two Minia. What are you doing? Much better. So cramped in there. So many as much as I enjoyed the movie. I still don't understand what any of this has to do with my gardening. Oh, right. So as much as these antibiotics have helped us keep these nasty bacterial bugs away. Well, these bugs have basically spent the last eighty years getting smarter and learning new ways to fight back. The bacterial bugs are trying to fight the antibiotics and the smartest bugs burnt least the bugs that are winning. The battle are called superbugs, and they are what scientists call antibiotic resistant, antibiotic resistant. Yeah. Which is basically just a fancy way of saying that antibiotic medicine doesn't always work against these bacterial infections anymore. Oh, that's right. I was reading that. Some scientists are concerned. That if more and more of these bugs become antibiotic resistant than both soon. Go back to a world like the one before Flemming's discovery. Yeah. A world where a paper cut could be deadly Higgs -actly, an have no fear guy. Roz super heroes. Scientists to rescue. These super scientist men and women are on the case searching high and low for new antibiotics to fight these new superbugs searching, well, you know, that dirt in your backyard. Scientists are looking for the next big antibiotic in the Dirk in my backyard. I mean, not just the dirt in your backyard, but dirt everywhere, wait a minute. You know, what let's head back out to your backyard, and I'll show you. Plus, I think I hear the cleaning crews about to come in. Yup. Looks like it's time to get out of here. What what what what walk walk walk walk after you. Thank you very much. Back in my full, Kris. Well. Onic farm. Well, I was gonna say horticultural display, but but nothing guy Roz you are currently standing on a potential goldmine of medical wonders for many, all I see. Here's my beautiful flower display. Those pogo sticks even Reggie left. I told you not to leave pogo sticks in my backyard anymore. That's where we left them. Anyway, I don't see any antibiotics from mold anywhere the antibiotics that we're looking for aren't going to be found in some gross mold guy Roz not they'd be found in some. In my flower exact Doritos, and look I said earlier there are trillions of bacteria living inside this dirt. In fact, in just one ounce of dirt. There can be as many as eight point five million different bacteria. How eight point five million. That's like the entire population of New York City living in this tiny morsel of dirt. And guess what? What? Mindy those bacteria are at. That's right. Every day underneath our feet. Mill of bacteria are clashing epic my club Beeld battle. Each of these microbes uses a different type of Mike trivial weapon by the other. And some of these bacteria are the ones that spread and fetches diseases and make talk. And so I'm guessing these scientists are studying how these warring bacteria defeat each other. So they can try to use that same technique in hospitals. Right, right. These superhero scientists are trying to take the weapons that the good bacteria is using against the bat infectious bacteria how and then use these weapons to defend ourselves. The next time the bad bacteria decides to infect a human hot. So how do they do it? Well, after inspecting soil samples sent in from other scientists from all over the world the team was able to extract or takeout ten thousand new microbial weapons that could potentially be used to fight superbugs super drugs for superbugs. Yep. And one of these microbial weapons that they were able to. Get from these dirt samples has proven to knock out a nasty superbug called streptococcus pneumonia. So I guess there's hope for the future of medicine after all I mean, just think about it guy Roz, there could be a million more medical discoveries still weeding out there some maybe even lurking right beneath our feet. You're absolutely right Mindy. But you know, in the meantime, there's a much more effective and potentially cheaper way to combat antibiotic resistance really how well it may seem like a pretty simple thing Mindy. But washing your hands is actually the best way to stop these bacteria infections in their tracks. We even got the science to back it up battling bacteria with soap and water. Baby. Could do that. Yeah. In fact, researchers at the university of Southampton in the United Kingdom recently conducted a huge survey where. Where they divided twenty thousand people into two groups and one group was told to go to a website that encourage them to wash their hands. Okay. And that website would remind the people in that group about the benefits of washing hands and the dangers of not washing your hands. And so what happened well three years later? The researchers went back to that group and compared them with another group that never saw the website at all. So what did these researchers find will they found that the group that was reminded to wash its hands the people in that group didn't get sick as often as the people in the other group that were washing their hands like less cold, flu and all those other infections begin exactly. But do we know exactly why? Oh, I'm glad you asked him Indy. Guy-roger? What are you doing? Just getting out my power. Point you made up power point presentation for this. I'm really into handwashing Yakin tell it's even on my family crest. Check it out. It's on this patch on my shirt here. Let me. An moon DARA mon- Nuham to what it's Latin for wash your hands yet it, okay? Let me just finish getting set up here who'd up the projector. Okay. Where was I? Oh, right. Right. The three benefits of handwashing number one boy stops us from catching infections from the people around us number two number two. Number two. It's stops the people around us from catching any infections. We might have. And number three. If you don't get an infection. That means you don't have to visit a doctor, which saves you. So what you're saying is that our hands are like a highway that infections used to travel in hand washing. With soap is the big road block. We need spoken like a true member of the handwashing society. So there's something that all of us can do to help defeat these nasty superbugs. That's right. Even put it into a song, man. Now, there's a song. I was so impressed with your gratitude appreciation song last year. Was about to launch into the good part? I thought I'd make up my own song for handwashing. I'll look at you a little show pony knew. I'd rub off on you eventually looked. You wanna hear it or not Mindy Cairo's? There is literally nothing. I'd rather hear more in this moment. Didn't your hand washing? Pump up jam. Okay. Let me just get out. Mm-hmm. Bach here. And you keep a lot out here in your backyard. And here we go. What? Right. Handwashing get it too. And. Pants. Bacteria? Lau will be right that grownups. This message is for you. Would you put on a sweater that once belonged to Hitler can Chinese zodiac science predict who's going to be a great scientist? And what happens when you use a training method for dogs teach doctors on charts to all those questions on my podcast, hidden brain. That's it back to the show. Hi, thanks for calling in the world. After the beep. Get ready to record high maniac guy, Rog. My name is Gerry. I am nine years old. I live in show on Oregon the mine while mar fever since their way to break would concrete and even a one centimeter fix. She amount. Love your show by. Hi, Mindy and guide. I my name is has a and I live in Heinz shell. And my wow in the world it in your area of bone. That's called the hammer. And and your have a card set called the ladder. Fi. I love your show. Hi, I'm Indian I'm willing. I'm seven years old on from. In United States. And my won the world is that of Liu will control a school bus hole. Hi, my name is Hattie. I'm. My mom the warriors that I'm the only Cisco in my family, and I have. By windy. I love your show. I'm in the I mine John unconvenient of Virginia. On the aggravating. And concerned about have been could go into a letter to congress thing that contingent species. And then it actually a loaded doctoring. They're trying. Bye. Bye. By the way, they showed a documentary the vet. Hi, I'm Anne, and I've Jupiter Florida. I'm seven years old, and my while the world is if March walk with earth the earth would freeze over and the part about it is a whole system would go crazy. I love your show keep up the good work. I've part of the world organization awhile by. Hi, Indian guy was my name is alisha I live all cling easy. And I'm my one well is that she says of the human body is made up to four five million guy rose. I love your show. Now. End of messages. Good. Thank you so much for joining us this week on. Wow. In the world. And if you want to keep the conversation going check out some of the questions we posted on this episode at our website, how in the world dot com and burn up dare you can find more details on how your kids can become part of the world organization of wows IRS. Lots of cool, perks exclusive t shirts. Autographed pictures of us and a bunch of other cool stuff. Wow. In the world dot com. Our show is produced by jed Anderson, say Hillary. With help from Thomas, Ben Calkins Chelsea Ersan. Jessica vote. Meredith Halpern rancher is big boss theme song composed and performed by the puffs, combine more of their awesome. All ages news at the puff up stock. Calm, and parents and teachers if you wanna send us an Email our address is Hello at. Wow. World dot com. Grownups you can also find us on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram at wow in the world. And if you want to be featured at the end of the show, call us up and tell us your, wow. In the world our phone number is one eight eight seven. Wow. Wow. That's one eight seven. Wow. Wow. And parents if you want to upload any photos or videos or messages to us, please. Visit wow. In the world dot com and find a link where you can do just that they hand if you haven't already done, so please subscribe on apple podcast, or however, you get your podcast leave us. Hugh stars in a review and be sure to tell a friend about the show until next time. He. Wow. The world with Kinga casts and sent to you by N P R. What's unique about the human experience? And what are we all have in common guy Roz every week on Ted radio hour, we go on a journey to the big ideas, motions discoveries that fill all of us with wonder find it on NPR one or wherever you get your podcasts.

Mindy Cairo Roz Beck Dr Alexander Fleming scientist Reggie penicillin Mr. Albert Alexander Ben torito apple Akot Hugh India Ito Mike God Tennis Minia Jessica Indies New York City
Staphylococcus Aureus and the Non-Denial Denial

The Anthropocene Reviewed

23:40 min | 1 year ago

Staphylococcus Aureus and the Non-Denial Denial

"Hey cold open to let you know about something weird. We are making merch specifically. We are making a coffee. Mug that contains my review of coffee mugs. Which can be read nowhere else in the world except on the coffee. Mug So if you or someone you love would like a coffee. Mug or a review of coffee mugs or better still both. Please go to D. F. T. B. A. dot com. If this works will do more weird merch all right. Here's the show. Hello and welcome to the anthropology and reviewed a podcast where we reviewed different facets of the human centered planet on a five star scale. I'm on Green. And today I'll be reviewing a micro organism staphylococcus aureus and rhetorical device called the Non Denial denial years ago. I acquired an infection in my left eye socket caused by the bacteria. Staphylococcus Aureus my vision clouded and then. My eye socket swelled shut and I ended up hospitalized for over a week how I experienced the same infection anytime in history before nineteen forty. I would've likely lost. Not just my I but my life then again I wouldn't have ever lived to acquire orbital so you lights because I would have died of the staph infections I had in childhood. Stella Aureus is not a normal part of the human microbiome but many people perhaps around a third are like me. Nonetheless hosts two colonies of it on our skin or in our nasal passages or in our digestive systems. These colonies are usually harmless but while anyone can get sick with staff those of us who live omitted. Every day are more likely to suffer infections. When I was in the hospital the infectious disease. Doctors made me feel very special. One told me you are colonized by some fascinating Lee. Aggressive Staff He told me I wouldn't believe the petri dishes if I saw them and went on to call my continued existence. A real testament to modern medicine. Which I suppose it is for. People like myself colonized by fascinating. The aggressive bacteria there can be no harkening back wistfully to pass Golden Ages. Because in all those pasts I would be dead in. Nineteen forty one. Boston city hospital reported in eighty two percent fatality rate. For staph infections. I remember as a child hearing phrases like only the strong survive and survival of the fittest and feeling terrified by them. Because I knew I was not fit or strong. I didn't yet know that when humanity protects the frail among us and works to ensure their survival the human project as a whole get stronger failing to understand that has held our species back for Millennia and in fact still does because staff often infects open wounds. It has been especially deadly during war near the beginning of world. War One. The English poet Rupert Brooke Famously wrote if I should die. Think only this of me that there's some corner of a foreign field that is forever. England Brookwood indeed die in the war in the winter of nineteen fifteen but not in some corner of a foreign field but instead on a hospital ship of a bacterial infection by then there were of course. Thousands of doctors treating the war's wounded and ill among them was a seventy one year old. Scottish surgeon Alexander Ogden who decades earlier had discovered and named Staphylococcus Ogden who sported a magnificent moustache throughout his adult. Life was a huge fan of Joseph. Lister WHO's observations about post surgical infection led to the use of carbolic acid and other sterilization techniques these dramatically increased surgical survival rates. In fact after visiting lister and learning from Him Ogden returned to his hospital in Aberdeen and tore down the sign above the operating room that read prepare to meet the God. No would surgery. Be a desperate last ditch effort. It could be safe and clean and survivable. Ogden was so obsessed with listers carbolic acid spray that his students wrote a poem about it. The spray the spray the antiseptic spray. A would shower it morning night and day for every sort of scratch where others would attach a sticking plaster patch. He gave the spray. It's all right but it's no Rupert Brooke. At any rate Ogden had good reason to give the spray. His first wife Mary. Jane had died after childbirth a few years earlier at the age of twenty five. There's no record her cause death but most maternal deaths at the time were caused by postpartum infection often due to staphylococcus aureus and dogs had hundreds of his patients die of post surgical infection so no wonder he was obsessed with antiseptic protocols. Still he wanted to understand not just how to prevent infection but also what precisely was causing it by the late. Eighteen seventies many discoveries were being made by surgeons and researchers about various bacteria and their role in infection but staphylococcus was not identified until Austin lanced a pus filled abscessed leg wound belonging to one James Davidson. Under the microscope. Davidson's abscess was brimming with life. Ogden wrote my delight may be conceived when there were revealed to me beautiful tangles tufts and chains of round organisms in great numbers. Ogden named these tufts and chains staphylococcus from the Greek word for bunches of grapes and they do often look like grape bunches plump and just a little bit oblong and also quite yellowish green. A few years later a German scientist noted that there were in fact several species of staphylococcus and named the one Ogden had found Staphylococcus Aureus or the golden staff but Ogden wasn't content with just seeing the bacteria. Obviously he wrote the first step to be taken was to make sure the organisms found. In Mr Davidson's pus were not there by chance. So he set up a laboratory in the shed behind his house and began trying to grow colonies of staff eventually succeeding by growing them. In the medium of a chicken egg he then injected the bacteria into guinea pigs and wild mice which became violently ill. Ogden also noted that staphylococcus seemed to be quote harmless on the surface despite being quote so deleterious when injected I have also observed this in so far as I am not much bothered by having my skin colonized by Staphylococcus Aureus but find it. Dilatot serious indeed when it starts replicating inside my eye socket. James Davidson by the way went on to live another forty years after his staph infection. Thanks to a thorough deriding and Ogden's liberal use of the spray the spray the antiseptic spray but staphylococcus aureus remained an exceptionally dangerous infection until another Scottish scientist Alexander. Fleming discovered penicillin by accident. Actually one Monday morning in nineteen twenty eight Fleming notice that one of his cultures of Staphylococcus aureus had been contaminated by a fungus penicillin them which seemed to have killed all the STAPH BACTERIA. He remarked allowed. That's funny Fleming. Then used what? He called his mould juice. I wish I were making that up to treat. Couple patients including during his assistance. Sinus infection but mass production of the antibiotic substance secreted by. Penicillin proved very challenging. It wasn't until the late nineteen thirties. That a group of scientists at Oxford began testing their penicillin stocks. I on mice and then in nineteen forty one on a human subject. A policeman named Albert Alexander who'd been cut by shrapnel during a German bombing raid and who was dying of bacterial infections in his case both staphylococcus aureus and streptococcus. The penicillin caused a dramatic improvement in Alexander's condition but the researchers didn't have enough of the drug to save him. The infections returned and Alexander died in April of nineteen forty one. His seven-year-old daughter Sheila ended up in a local orphanage. Scientists began to seek out more productive strains of the mold and eventually found one on a cantaloupe in a Peoria Illinois grocery store that strain eventually became even more productive after being exposed to x rays and ultraviolet radiation. But essentially all penicillin. In the world descends from that mold on that one cantaloupe in Peoria. That's not the astounding thing about the story though the astounding thing is that after scraping off the mold that became the world's supply of penicillin the scientists in question eight the rest of the cantaloupe even as penicillin stocks increased from not enough to save a single human being in nineteen forty one to twenty one billion units in one thousand nine hundred forty three to six point eight trillion units in nineteen forty-five there was growing awareness that the bacteria killed by penicillin were evolving resistance to it especially staphylococcus aureus the nineteen forty six Saturday evening. Post ARTICLE WORRIED ANTIBIOTIC. Use would quote unwittingly aid and speed up the subtle evolution forces which arranged for the survival of the fittest microbes. And so it was to be by. Nineteen fifty forty percent of staphylococcus aureus samples in hospitals were resistant to penicillin by nineteen sixty eighty percent today. Only around two percent of Staff. A infections are sensitive to penicillin. This all happened so so quickly. Sixty four years elapsed between Alexander Ogden's discovery of staphylococcus and the mass production of penicillin and sixty four years elapsed between the mass production of penicillin. And my two thousand seven bout with orbital cellulitis. In the end my infection did not respond to penicillin or to the next two lines of antibiotics but did fortunately respond to the fourth but antibiotic resistance is not only a problem for the future. Some fifty thousand people in the United States die of staphylococcus aureus infections every year. How recent is penicillin that police officers daughter Sheila? Who ended up in the orphanage? She's still alive. She married an American soldier and moved to California. She's a painter one of her recent paintings. Two picks a block of homes in an English Village Ivy grows up along one wall creeping over the rough stone to me. The great mystery of life is why life wants to be staphylococcus. Doesn't want to harm people. It doesn't know about people. It just wants to be like that. Iv wants to spread across the wall occupying more and more of it. How much as much as it can. So it's not staff's fault that it wishes to be wishing to be is the mark of life and the glory of it still. I can only give staphylococcus one and a half stars after the break. We'll turn our attention to the non. Denial denial but first back in seventeen. O Six a bishop and bear in in London Co founded the first Modern Life Insurance Company. It was called the Amicable Society for a perpetual assurance office. All I really want out of this veil of tears is to give an amicable society and Experience Perpetual Assurance. What a phrase that is perpetual assurance it seems to me that underlying problem with the anthropology gene is that we all want to feel perpetually assured but the world offers almost nothing that is either certain or perpetual there is however still life insurance policy genius makes finding the right life insurance a breeze in minutes you can compare quotes from the top insurers to find your best price so go get a slice of assurance for those you love life. Insurance takes just a few minutes to apply at Policy Genius. Dot Com policy genius. Get Life Insurance Right. Sometimes when I am exceptionally despondent about the condition of contemporary political life in the United States I will turn history especially to the politicking of ancient Rome. There's a famous document called the little handbook on electioneering purportedly written by Quintas Tovia Cicero to his older brother. Marcus Marcus is the famous CICERO. The Roman Warrior and orator who served as Roman consul in sixty three B. C. E. scholars dispute whether Quintas actually wrote the little handbook. It may have been a later creation but regardless despite being a couple thousand years old it is in some ways eight very contemporary document. It argues for instance that quote men are more taken by look and words than by actual services. It also points out that when someone asks of you something you cannot do. You can either promised to do it any way or politely refuse. The latter is the conduct of a good man. The handbook tells us the former of a good candidate. But what really gets me about the little handbook on? Electioneering is a paragraph on pointing out the flaws in other candidates in this case Roman Senator Caroline. The handbook reads. Why should I speak of him as a candidate for the console ship who caused Marias a man most beloved by the Roman people to be beaten with vine rods in the sight of that Roman people from one end of the city to the other forced him to the tomb rent his name with every kind of torture and while he was still alive and breathing cut off his head? The little handbook goes on to describe. Katelyn not only as a murderer but were still as quote a man who afterwards lived with actors and gladiators on such terms that the former ministered to his lust and the latter to his crimes. It's one thing to decapitate your brother in law but living with actors who minister to your lust that's properly disqualifying. The handbook also says that people quote would rather you told them a civil law by then give them a point blank refusal? It's a coincidence. But a wonderful one. That civil lies sound so much like civilize. I. I heard the term non. Denial denial while reading. Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein's book all the president's men about the Watergate cover up that led to President Richard Nixon's resignation back in one thousand nine hundred seventy four Nixon's press secretary. Ronald Ziegler regularly released denials. That did not actually denied the accusations in question. Ziegler once said for instance stories are being run based on hearsay innuendo guilt by association which is a criticism of the press but not a denial of the story in the decade. Since the Non Denial. Denial has become almost beautiful in its linguistic sophistication like after the national enquirer published reports of two thousand eight. Democratic presidential hopeful John F. Words having a child outside of his marriage Edward said that's tabloid trash their full of guys but that comment is carefully worded to say the tabloids often spread misinformation without saying that they were in this case spreading misinformation Edwards. Did eventually say the story's just false false is a word that pops up. In many non denial denials it's useful because it's vague like maybe the story is false. Because you didn't actually have a child with your mistress whom you supported with funds from campaign. Donations were maybe. The story is false because it claimed you boarded an airplane at noon when in fact you boarded it at twelve. Oh six the best. Non Denial denials sound like broad statements but secretly aren't former. Us President Bill Clinton issued. What seemed to be a blanket? Denial when he said of an affair I did not have sexual relations with that woman but it turned out that he had an extremely specific definition of sexual relations in mind when uttering those now famous words but there are many other varieties of non denial denials. You can answer a question different from the one you were asked. As when Chris Christie responded to allegations he'd closed a bridge for politically motivated reasons. By saying I am not a bully or you might use certain words to describe an accusation. That seem like denials. But really aren't my favorite is outrageous as when US Senator Marco Rubio described as outrageous a report that he mischaracterized his family. History many things are outrageous but still true especially in politics. Ultimately I think language exists to facilitate communication to make my thoughts transparent to you and yours. Transparent to me but language can also be used to make the past and the present confusing and even opaque and in those senses. The non denial. Denial is a failure of language. Still in the end I think I prefer non denial denials to the pure lies that some politicians are happy to tell the current. Us President seems not to be very interested in linguistic acrobatics and instead is content simply to lie both when it comes to big matters like claiming that China pays for US tariffs on Chinese goods and also when it comes to ridiculously small matters like the fact that he used to serve as his own spokesperson under the pseudonym John Barren of course. The president isn't the only politician to take stretching the truth to the level of breaking it but he is currently the most prominent. I suppose one could argue that. It's better to live with provable. False statements than the intentional obfuscation of non denial denials and I do realize that no American politician has as of yet anyway decapitated a political rival and paraded around town with a disembodied head. But even so I will confess that the Times in which I find myself have left me a little town chick. For the days of Civil Wise I give non denial denials to stars. Thanks for listening to the anthropology interviewed which was written by mean edited by Stan Muller and produced by Roseana Halls Rojo's and Tony Phillips. Joe Is our technical director and Brown makes the music. The pairing of today's episode was inspired by a quote apparently MIS attributed to Cicero. Politicians are not born. They are excreted. Penicillin really is excreted though. Thanks to Megan Austin and deep deep. I suggesting reviews of penicillin. I WANNA leave you today with my favorite fact. That didn't make it in. Today's reviews Alexander Ogden. The Scottish surgeon who discovered staphylococcus raised some wondrously radical children including his daughter. Helen who was a famous British suffragette in nineteen eight. Helen attempted to give a speech at London's Royal Albert Hall Arguing. That women should have the right to vote. Male stewards tried to pull her off. The stage violently. One pressed the lit end of a cigar to her wrist. Hellen Ogden responded by pulling out a dog whip and whipping the madden. It would be another twenty years before women in Britain had the same voting rights as men just as the daughter of that policeman treated with penicillin is still alive. There are British women still alive who were born in a country where women could not vote. History is new my friends and we are all of us making it all the time together.

Staphylococcus Ogden staphylococcus penicillin United States Stella Aureus Rupert Brooke president Sinus infection Sheila Albert Alexander James Davidson D. F. T. B. California Peoria Quintas Tovia Cicero national enquirer Boston city hospital Aberdeen Cicero
Finite

TED Radio Hour

53:54 min | 2 years ago

Finite

"This message comes from NPR sponsor Comcast. Comcast values your time. That's why you can schedule to our appointment windows, including nights and weekends that way. You can spend more time doing what you love. Comcast working to make things. Simple, easy, and awesome. Hey, it's guy here. So as of this month, there are roughly seven point seven billion people living here on planet earth and all those people are using resources like food and oil and water and medicine faster than ever before. So today on the show. We're gonna explore our finite world. And if it's even possible to innovate our way out of it. This episode is called finite and it originally aired in July of twenty fifteen. This. Is the Ted radio hour. Each week round breaking tedtalk. Technology entertainment design design is that really what I've never known delivered. A Ted conferences around the world the human imagination we've had to believe in impossible thing. That's true nature of reality. Beckons from just beyond those talks, those ideas gap did for radio. From NPR. I'm guy Roz. So like a lot of people back in the late seventies. Mark Plotkin head he'd really bad trip. The worst experience of my life was taking I o Oscar with a shame in from the Colombian Amazon. And in that, I witnessed my death. Mark clock in is an ethnobotanist, which means he studies plants specifically plants that grow in the Amazon, and because he's interested in the medicinal power of those plans to heal Markle spent a lot of time communing with the native tribes who use those plants to brew things like AT called Iowa. Well, we would describe it as a hallucinogenic term the Indians don't like they call. It remains of medicine. It's the original medicine the most important medicine and medicine used to welcome guests, a medicine only, the rudest guest would refuse and a medicine that Mark was offered that day in the Colombian Amazon and I drink the first Cup, and I felt pretty good. And then a couple of hours later, they will either say to you you should drink another Cup or do you want? Another Coppard don't drink another Cup. And I'm recalled he offered it to mariah's for it. And I took it, and it just went downhill from there like right away right away. What do you remember just crying and screaming, and wishing I was dead. What did you feel like? Was in my misery. And I wanted to be put out of it was terrible. Well, you are in pain, nausea, nausea. I mean, all of them. So how did you experience death? I saw myself die and dead. But painful and horrible and terrible. It wasn't like I'd slowed by the top of the room in there. I was it was awful. And then it got worse. I ended up vomiting purple phosphorescent scorpions. Mark is not speaking literally. And you know. Shame and say when you take Wasco you get out of it what you need to. And so afterwards, I said to the shame. And why did you do that to me? And he's at the fate of my culture, the fate of my forest joined with that of you and your organization I wanted you to experience death. So you would never fear it again. And the point here. It's not that shames have all the answers, Iowa has all the answers. They don't, and it doesn't the fact is that some of these systems of healing some of these magic plants can do things that we cannot. So you've probably heard this before the Amazon is the most biodiverse place on earth full of natural resources with potentially lifesaving medical applications, but its most valuable resource is quite possibly knowledge the secrets that only native tribes know about knowledge that Mark Plotkin described from the Ted stage four years ago iron my foot and a climate accident. No went to the doctor. She gave me heat cold aspirin narcotic painkillers anti inflammatories. Cortisone shots didn't work. Several months later, I was in the northeast Amazon walked into a village and the shame and said, you're limping and I'll never forget this is long as I live. He looked me in the face. And he said take off your shoe and give me your Michetti. You walked over to a palm tree and carved off of fern through it in the fire applied it to my foot through it in a pot of water and had me drink the t the pain disappeared for seven months when it came back. I went to see the shame, and again, he gave me the same treatment, and I've been cured for three years now. Who would you rather be treated by? Make no mistake. Western medicine is the most successful system of healing ever devised. But there's a saying in Suriname that ideally love the rainforest hold answers to questions we have yet to ask. But as you all know, it's rapidly disappearing here in Brazil in the Amazon around the world. The world is full of finite resources some of them. We don't tap into like we should. And some we use as if they'll never run out our show today. Finite ideas about preserving the dwindling resources on the one planet, we inhabit and how to make the most of what's left from water. We've underpriced water we've overexploited it. We don't actually regulate it. We just use too much to oil. They're all no, non radical solutions left, such as the extent of the climate crisis that we really need to be doing a lot of really new thinking two things you might not think about as valuable resources just like with oil. It's getting more and more difficult to tap into pools of antibiotic effectiveness, and how to use just you know, what we need one of the things that I see in working with and studying indigenous cultures is the concept of the finite and the concept of gratitude Indian spent a lot of time thanking the gods of the forest thinking the animals of the forest. Not taking more than they need. Mark Plotkin has been studying those indigenous cultures in the Amazon since nineteen seventy seven, and I've been going many times you're ever since often extended per is in the good old days when I was a graduate student. Mark follow his tribesmen through the rainforest asking about plants and herbs how they use them speaking their language, the tribal languages in which I deal are still I'm on total, which is the predominant trading language in the northeast, Amazon and trio that second language Mark speaks trio is spoken by just four thousand people. Most of them live in tribes along the border between Brazil and the country of sore nam and those tribes generally don't keep records. They don't write down what they know about the local plants. So Mark learned trio in part to help preserve that knowledge that might have otherwise been lost to history knowledge that could contain secrets to new medicines, my colleague, the late great Loren McIntyre. Discover of the source lake. Of the Amazon Laguna McIntyre and the proven and each was lost on the Peru. Brazil border about thirty years ago. He was rescued by a group of isolated Indians. Call the matzos they beckon for him to follow them into the forest, which he did there. They took out palm leaf baskets there. They took out these green monkey frogs, and they began licking them. It turns out there highly hallucinogenic. Macintyre wrote about this. And it was read by the editor of high times magazine, you see the ethnobotanist have friends and all sorts of strange cultures. This guy decided he would go down to the Amazon and give it a world or give it a lick. And he did. And he wrote my blood pressure went through the roof. I lost full control of my bodily functions. I passed out in a heap. I woke up in a hammock six hours later felt like God for two days. An Italian chemist read this and said, I'm not really interested in the theological aspects of the green monkey frog. What's this about the change in blood pressure? There's an Italian chemist who's working on a new treatment for high blood pressure based on peptides in the skin of the green monkey frog and other scientists are looking at a cure for drug resistant, staff aureus, how ironic if these isolated Indians and their magic frog proved to be one of the cures. So years ago pharmaceutical companies would actively look for potential sources of medicine in places like the Amazon and from that came novacaine from the coca plant of South America, the first anesthesia from jarara arrow poison alkaloids from the Amazon, you lecarr pain is what they used to put in her eyes at the doctor's office to dilate our people's but today because technology has made it so much easier to make drugs from synthetic materials. Pharmaceutical companies aren't that interested in trudging through the rainforests to find new ones, which means there could be useful plant and animal species in the rainforest. We don't even know about and aren't working to conserve. Every species is a genius at something. That's why they survive wasn't me. Who said that it was Leonardo da Vinci. So doesn't it make sense to save all these pieces would I also wanna add is it's not just about a utilitarian approach to conservation. Let's save it because it's a cure for cancer. Let's say, but because it may help us with. Warming. I want to save it because they are. So if there is all this potential information that the we don't know. I mean, could there be tribes out there with that knowledge that we don't even know exist? Do believe they're isolated tribes that have had no contact with the outside world, assuming the outside world or guys like you or me and not maybe the next tribe over that. They may have traded with because I've never met a member of a loss tribe who has lost these guys know the forest far better than we do. Contacted people's hold a mystical and conic role in our imagination. These are the people who truly live in total harmony with nature. Why are these people isolated they know we exist? They know there's an outside world. This is a form of resistance. They have chosen to remain isolated. And I think it is their human rights to remain. So but the world is changing the diminishment of the civil war in Colombia the outside world is showing up to the north. We have a legal gold-mining also from the east from Brazil, there's increased hunting and fishing for commercial purposes, we see illegal logging coming from the south and improve as very nasty business. It's called human safaris. They will take you in two isolated groups to take their picture. Of course, when you give them clothes when you give them tools. You also give them diseases. We call these. Inhuman safaris. Now, remember, these are pre literate societies the elders are the libraries every time. A shame and dies. It's Ziff a library has burned down. Mark says to preserve that knowledge information, which could someday lead to new medicines means we almost have to think about that knowledge like a valuable resource, that's disappearing fast. So better protection of national parks. Better. Protection of indigenous lands penalties economic penalties for destroying forests and stupid ways. We know all the answers here, but the human animal the capitalist system doesn't always do things the right way, the most efficient way the quickest way the Greeks and the Romans ran the world for many years and their empires pooped out for many reasons, one of which is the Greek and the Roman armies ran on would their catapults were made it with their ships were made of wood chariots for made of would their weapons are made a wood. There's no forest left in Italy or Greece. So we consider ourselves here in the west is the air to that. Great. Greco Roman tradition. Logical man philosophy thinking science destroyed their environment, and they disappeared. I hope we're not making the same mistake. So the question is in conclusion is what the future holds. Let's think differently. Let's make a better world if the climate is going to change let's have a climate that changes for the better rather than the worse. Let's live on a planet full of luxury vegetation in which is located people's can remain in isolation can maintain that mystery. And that knowledge if they so choose let's live in the world where the shame men's live in these forests and heal themselves and us with their mystical plants and their sacred frocks. Thanks again. Pike in is the founder of the Amazon conservation team. His talk is at Ted dot com. More on finite resources and the ways to protect them in a moment. I'm guy Roz, and you're listening to the Ted radio hour from NPR. Hey, everyone just two quick. Thanks to two of our sponsors who helped make this podcast possible. I two we were GI Fulop is the co founder of textile company, and we work member. Brooke linen? She chose to move her business into a we work office in part because of we works flexible spaces, we hope that we can keep growing, and we know that we were has really great solutions as companies become mid size enlarge in that. They would be able to guide us to the best solution to learn more about how we work supports its members grow through flexible workspace offerings. Visit we dot co slash space matters. Thanks, also to Microsoft, the new Microsoft surface. Pro six can help you get things done. Whether you're on the field or running a business take Brian arrack PO and Michael Griffin, for example to former NFL teammates who have opened a cupcake shop with the surface pro they can do everything they need from setting schedules. Creating promotions for social media and designing new flavors. It's light super fast and has a great battery life, the new surface pro six from Microsoft. Hey, and one more quick thing before we get back to the show if you've ever listened to the credits at the end of the show, you might recognize the names rund, Abdelfatta and rum teen Arab Louis because for the past few years, they've brought you some of your favorite episodes of Ted radio hour and how I built this. And I have some incredibly exciting news rund teen are launching their very own show. It's called through line. And it's NPR's I ever history podcast. And it is amazing. But don't just take my word for it. Here it for yourself. The first episode is out right now. And if you stick around you'll hear more from run from teen a little later in the show. It's the Ted radio hour from NPR. I'm guy Roz and on the show today. Finite ideas about the resources we use and how to make the most of what's left. I mean think about the great American story. Right. Munch are white guys from Europe show up on the east coast and the land is theirs, and they just plow across the continent and use more and more and more just go west young man, and they'll be more resources, but says John Foley. Well, we have to Pacific and we had to stop. There isn't any more. We've run out we have run out of planet. In fact, fully isn't a colleges to runs the California academy of sciences, and one thing that I talk about a lot with folks that, you know, think about the last fifty years in the last fifty years the human population more than doubled our use of food and water more than tripled and our USA fossil fuels more than quadrupled in just fifty years. Yeah. Isn't that crazy that maze in that single lifetime? The world has changed more than all of human history combined now, so but when change John's has beats all the others agriculture's, probably the biggest thing we've ever done to the planet and the one thing that makes agriculture possible. Water turns out seventy percent or ninety percent of ending. How you do the bookkeeping of all the water consumed by people around the world is used for one thing irradiating crops. Check fully says that water and food are connected in a way that is just not sustainable. So think about California, for example, water films in California to first order a food problem. The biggest consumer of water in California right now is Falvo all fell alone is using more water than all of the humans in California combined and most of it's being shipped overseas to use as dairy food for cows in the Middle East or in China. So we're exporting California water to the Middle East or China to make milk somewhere else. And so we've underpriced water we've over exploited it. We don't actually regulate how people pump groundwater out of the ground. You can do that as much as you like we just use too much. In fact, John argues that agriculture is the most powerful force unleashed on the planet since the end of the ice age. And even though it's using up a lot of our land a ton of our water. He's not saying we should stop growing food. But that we have to be smarter about the way we grow it. Here's John on the Ted stage. This is a photograph flying into Arizona. And when you look at it, what are they growing? Here. Turns out they're growing lettuce in the middle of the desert using water sprayed on top. But what's really interesting is this water's gotta come from someplace, and it comes from here. The Colorado river irrigating the desert for food, or maybe golf courses in Scottsdale, you take your pick. Well, this is a lot of water. And again, we're mining water and using it to grow food. We've literally consumed an entire river for your. Action. And if anything we're going to have the demands on agriculture increase into the future. It's not going to go away. It's going to get a lot bigger mainly because of growing population. We're seven billion people today heading towards at least nine more importantly changing diets as the world becomes wealthier as well as more populous or seeing increases in dietary consumption of meat, which take a lot more resources than a vegetarian diet does. So more people eating more stuff and richer stuff. At of course, we have to replace all with other energy sources that will ultimately have to include some kinds of biofuels of energy. Sources see put these together it's really hard to see how are you get to the rest of the century without at least doubling global agricultural production. But if we keep doing that. I mean, we're gonna have to start like rationing water all around the world like how much people use of it and maybe drink in how people grow food and how much of it. They get like Knox movie, essentially. Like Mad Max, I'm here's my question. Is that where we're headed? Like, if we do nothing is that where we're going, and can we, you know, do you think that we'll be able to kind of make that not happen? You know, it's kind of funny given the business that I'm I'm actually an optimist. I guess I'd maybe it's not optimism. But I have hope hopes to different than Optimus. And my hope is that we can change that narrative that humans at their best when they're pushed to a corner and really see a problem, actually, respond magnificently and technology can help. I'm a big fan of drip, irrigation. I'm a big fan of organic farming methods that tend to hold more moisture in the soil getting rid of lawns getting rid of things that kind of wastewater really conspicuously. Let's tighten up our infrastructure. Let's cover canals. So they don't have operated. Let's get the pipes leaks fixed. And there are lots and lots of things like that. We can do. Now when I talk about this people often, tell me, well isn't black the answer or Ganic food local food. She M O's new trade subsidies, new farm bills. And yeah, we we have a lot of good ideas here, but not any one of these is a silver bullet. In fact, what I think they are more like silver buckshot, and I love silver buckshot, you put it together. And you've got something really powerful, but we need to put them together. So what we have to do. I think is invent a new kind of culture that plans. The best ideas of commercial agriculture in the green revolution. With the best ideas of organic farming and local food and the best ideas of environmental conservation, not to have them fighting each other, but they have them collaborating together. But this is hard, right. I mean, take Gad people to focus on a problem. That's that's like not in their face. It doesn't seem so urgent. Well, I think a lot of folks would argue that you know, we're fighting millions of years of evolution. Homo sapiens, thousands of years of history as civilized humans that tells us that we should be out there exploiting resources. So we could survive to the next day Dow, but if it meant using a little more soil or a little more land or grabbing a few extra animals to eat that was her job. I mean, we went from all of human history, we were basically insignificant compared to the size of the earth. And now suddenly in one generation or so we've flipped it around. Now, humans are bigger than the earth are appetite for resources is bigger than what the earth can actually provide. That's never happened before. So we're trying to get as smart as possible in a generation or two to undo millions of years of evolution thousands of years of history. That's really hard. But we're getting smarter. Justice were also getting dumber about planet, and I'd like to tip the scales to see how we can make the smarter went out. That's John fully he's in college issed and the executive director of the California academy of sciences. You could see his entire talk at Ted dot NPR dot org. So on the show today. We're talking about finite resources. And here's a story about something. We don't normally think of as a resource at all we heard about it from Ramadan, lex Orion. He's an economist who studies the patterns of disease and the story begins in late December nineteen forty in Oxford England, and this this police Manute shows up at info Marie in Oxford and on his day off from work he'd been scratched by Reuss thown. Apparently, the policeman was a guy named Albert Alexander. And that little scratch had turned into a nasty infection is anti aside of his cheek is infected and swollen. His eyes was so badly infected that they had to take his eyes out. There's a giant abscess on his face. Remember back in nineteen forty infections were a leading cause of death. Most of the soldiers in major wars didn't die from being shot. They died from infected wounds if someone had an infection from simple scratch, they could just weeded out. There was a good chance of dying. But it just so happened that at alab not too far from this particular hospital in Oxford where Albert Alexander wound up researchers working on an experimental new drug which was capable of killing bacteria. It had been discovered purely by accident a couple of years earlier, and it was made from a type of mold. But the researchers didn't know if the drug was safe enough to use a human being had never been tested in by chance. They found out about Albert Alexander. And they figured this was going to die anyway. And so why not try out the drug and give them the drug the first day already? He starts looking a little better as appetite returns. Secondly, he looks a whole lot better day three even better day four much better. Fifty looks like this man may actually live and then they'd run out of penicillin penicillin the very first antibiotic, so they run out of penicillin. And then what he died Lau, but you have to remember this was such a mockup experiment to have even worked because somehow this drug worked in the stationed and opened up his died era of medicine. Everything that we know as modern medicine really goes back to that particular day when abbot Alexander lived because of fantasy. And that was the start of the antibiotics revolution. The fact that you could keep an infection at bay from the body meant that you could not perform surgeries could perform long surgeries. And because that you could have transplants you could have a root canal all of these will made possible by the fact that we have antibiotics talking about a basically a miracle drug. I mean, arguably one of the most effective important medical advancements in human history, absolutely. Antibiotics completely transformed human lifespans overnight. But the antibiotics revolution is starting to unravel. According to the centers for disease control twice as many Americans now die each year from infections that can't be cured with antibiotics then from HIV aids. And that problem is getting worse. In fact, even as recently as safety eighteen years ago. I don't recall actually knowing a patient with resistant infection, but what has happened in the last ten years has been remarkable increase in the actual number of people who are dying or are not able to get better because they carry resistant infection and by the middle of the century. More people will die from infections from cancer. If the problem isn't solved it would be like winding the clock back to nineteen forty. So question is have the miracle drug turn into a global health threat? Well, the short answer is we've been over using them on humans and animals in the more. We use antibiotics the more opportunities bacteria have to develop resistance, and in some instances some about because of stop working entirely. We have used antibiotics and many instances appropriately we've used them on femmes presumably to keep animals healthy. But really to help them. Get fat a little faster to save a few pennies, but found of meat with squandered would it really the crown jewels of modern medicine. Which is why says we need to think of antibiotics in a completely different way, we need to think of them like we think of oil or water is a resource that needs to be protected Ramadan explained his idea from the Ted stage out turns out that the something fundamental about antibiotics which make different from other drugs, which is that if I misuse by use antibiotics, not only a my affected, but others affected as well. In the same way as vice use to drive to work or take a plane to go somewhere that the cost I imposed on others through blow climate change, go everywhere, and I don't necessarily take these costs into consideration. Now, that's the problem that's similar to another area that we all know about which is a few lose energy. And of course, energy use both the pleats energy as well as leads to local pollution and climate change. And typically in the case of energy to is in which you can deal with the problem. One is we can make better use of the oil that we have and that's analogous to making better use of existing antibiotics, and we can do this in a number of with that. We'll talk about second. But the other option is the drill baby drill option. Which in the case of antibiotics is is to go. Find new antibiotics now these are not separate they're related because if we invest heavily in new oil wills we reduce the incentives for conservation of oil and the same way that's going to happen for to fix the divers also going to happen, which is that if we use antibiotics appropriately we don't necessarily have to make the investments in in new drug development. The amazing thing about all this is there are no alternatives to end up Arctic's, right? Like in terms of affective as we have to solve this problem. Weren't big trouble. You're absolutely right. And this is what's really what he's about this problem? The only alternatives we have off to prevent the infection with vaccines, infection control. What have you? But honestly, we really don't have a substitute about. And no one has figured out that say in fifty years from now, we won't need antibiotics because we have X maybe ex will appear. But right now, no one is able to see through to see what is x really will be. We really don't have a substitute rant about. Now. This is clearly not a game that can be sustained a one that can win by simply innovating to stay ahead, and ideas that can borrow from energy that are helpful and thinking about how we might want to do this in the case of antibiotics. Well now if you think about how. Deal with energy pricing, for instance, with consider emission stacks. Which means we're imposing the cost of pollution on people who actually use that energy. We might consider doing that for Anta -biotics as well. And perhaps that would make sure that antibiotics actually get used appropriately. And certainly consumer education works very often people overuse antibiotics without necessarily prescribed too much without necessarily knowing that they do so and feedback mechanisms have been found to be useful both on energy when you tell someone the using a lot of energy during peak hour, they tend to cut back and the same sort of example has been performed even in the case of antibiotics. Can't stop using about X. It's not an option that is not an option to solve this problem. It has to be about dramatically, reducing how much we use them. It has to be about reducing. How use them changing how we use them being clever about how we use them. So for instance, just imagine if we had a technology which. It was a pill that you ingested with the antibiotic that the minute the antibiotic had done its work in in the site of infection that this within absorb the remaining antibiotics that the antibiotic wasn't running around willy nilly round, your body killing bacteria, and creating resistance that would dramatically reduce the collateral damage that the antibiotic will do. Yeah, I had to take antibiotics for ten days. But after you know, forty eight hours, I felt fine and probably after five days it was gone. You still have to take it for ten days. You know, the history of that is very interesting. The earliest antibiotics will never actually tried out in clinical trials of the kind. We had today because most of antibiotics predate the laws that required the randomized trials so much of what we know about how long at about therapy needs to be is by trial and error that goes back to Abbott exander Lau exam and five days in work for them. So they don't wanna take a chance they said ten fourteen days therapy. That's what you have to go with. And that may be contributing to the problem that we are taking it for too long. Absolutely. Now, you gotta remember here on the one hand the main actor in our society was handing antibiotics is Dr. Yeah, the doctor has about the patient that sitting in front of him or her, and if she sees a patient with some likelihood that the infection may come back and five days or six days if she didn't treat for long enough. Then you know, she just wants to provide an antibiotic for ten days, maybe even fourteen days because that's what protects the patient. That's not what protects restaurant society, but the doctor is not hired to protect the restaurant society. She's there to protect the patient. And that's what she does. With had these technologies to control nature only for the last seventy eighty or one hundred years and essentially in a blink. We have squandered audibility to control because we have not recognized that natural selection pollution was going to find a way to get back, and we need to completely rethink how we're going to use measures to control biological organisms and rethink how we incentivize the development introduction and the case about antibiotics prescription of these valuable resources. Thank you. Ronna lex Minna Ryan, he's a communist who studies the patterns of disease and directs the center for disease dynamics, economics and policy. You can see his entire talk at Ted dot com. Coming up on the show of future without oil. That doesn't have to be like a Mad Max movie. I'm guy Roz, and you're listening to the Ted radio hour from NPR. Hey, everyone just a quick thanks to two of our sponsors who help make this podcast possible. I to each trade. Are you ready to make moves with your money? Invest with trade and you'll see how simple investing can be no matter your level of experience each trades easy to use platform keeps you in the know about your money every step of the way, but it's not just their platform that sets them apart. Each raid has the people to offer guidance and support to make your money work hard for you. For more information. Visit eatright dot com slash NPR traits. Curies LLC member FINRA as I p c. Thanks also to Capital One with the new Capital One saver card. You can earn four percent cashback on dining and entertainment. That means four percent on checking out that new restaurant. Everyone's talking about four percent on watching your team when it home. You'll also earn two percent cashback in grocery stores and one percent on all their purchases. Now when you go out cash in what's in your wallet, credit approval required, Capital, One, Bank, USA and. The US any Ron have been at odds for a long time. And we tend to think it all started with the Iranian revolution in nineteen seventy nine. But that's not the whole story this week on through line. We'll take you back to four days in nineteen Fifty-three that changed the US Iran relationship forever through line where we go back in time to understand the present. It's the Ted radio hour from NPR. I'm guy Roz on the show today. Finite ideas about preserving what we've got what's left on planet earth in had to make sure we don't lose it. So in south west England, there's a tiny hamlet called tot nece that looks exactly like you would expect a tiny hamlet in southwest England. It looks like to look the center of the town as very beautiful high street with lots of Elizabeth buildings slate hung tool narrow very kind of Italy Piggly beautiful colonnades buildings come out over the street with pillars holding up the buildings and a market square. A river running through the town. You know, like we've got these like restaurants in America called like oldy England that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Kind of. So that's Tottenham took. No, thanks to rob Hopkins and environmental activists who lives there. I know there's something that makes time a slightly different. Than other quaint villages in England. Particularly sunshiny like is today. It's always like this. What makes time especial is that the people there are planning for a future where we start to run out of the thing that's made our modern world possible bra actually held up a bottle of it. When he took the Ted stage. This is lead to reveal. This bottle of oil distilled over one hundred million years of geological time. Ancient sunlight contains energy equivalent about five weeks, heart human, manual labor. We can turn it into a dazzling array of materials medicine modern clothing, laptops, a whole range of different things. It gives us an energy return. Unimaginable. Historically, we've based the design of our settlements are business models our transport plans, even the idea of economic growth. Some would argue on the assumption that we will have this impo Pachulia yet when we take a step back and look over the span of history at what we might call the petroleum interval. It's short period in history where we've discovered this extraordinary material and then based hallway of life around. But as we straddle the top of this energy mountain at this stage, we moved from a time where our economic success our sense of individual prowess and wellbeing directly linked how much of this we consume to a time. When actually our degree of oil dependency is our degree of unreality, and it's increasingly clear that we aren't going to be able to rely on the fact that we're going to have this at our disposal forever. So before we get back to what makes timeless different. Here's the reality. We all face over the past decade humans have figured out new ways to extract oil from the earth. That means we have more of it than we've ever had before. And that's made us increasingly complacent about the need to find alternative energy solutions. Even though we know that sooner or later oil will run its course. And that until it does burning that oil for our cars and factories and planes is making climate change worse because every year we've had more slot in more of it in parents parents generation had less of the my parents, my generation move generation of aunt, of course, it's been remarkable. And able to do things that are grandparents could never even dream of. But at the same time when you then come up against a challenge says if you carry on using fossil fuels, and this kind of a way you take humanity out of that ban. Band within which human civilization emerged flourished and did everything that we associate with being human. Which is why it's no coincidence. Rob says that so many of the stories we tell about a world without oil. Are stories about a world without humanity. Like, Wally sorting trash on a humanness planet. Wow. Or other post apocalyptic stories like mad MAC on the one for both living. What intrigues me is? Well, as a society, we find it very easy to produce stuff. Like max all these films about. Society unraveling and everybody teen each other kin zombie robot diseases on the loose, whatever it is. The where are the stories about? How as society came together, we responded with creativity with compassion with Genucel to design away through this to a safe place, the end, okay, aside from the fact that that would make really boring movie, it does unless sound like nice way to build a community, which brings us back to Tottenham that small town in the UK where rob lives, and what happened was that a couple years ago, rob and a bunch of people there looked around and they realize that almost everything they bought or consumed dependent on oil. So they started to ask questions. Do you need to use it to drive solids from one into the country to the other? Do we need business models where chain food businesses at assume that you should be able to walk into one of their restaurants anywhere in the country and the burgers, masala taste exactly the same any time of year. Yes. Maybe use it for friends Celtics medicines for those things that you need, but you don't extracted inside Ethiopia process refined in wherever in Yemen. Take into China maker. It into cheap plastic toy that you then send to the US breaks. A we can ends up in landfill. So to be clear, rob is not suggesting the towns like Tottenham, build a big fence and never let anything in or out or that, you know, Tana will be making laptop computers and frying pans anytime soon. But the idea is that towns like Totten or anywhere really could do a lot more to take advantage of their local resources. So just putting in place new gardens in the town. We have a garden chess game that brings together people who want to grow food with people who have gotten that too busy to elderly to us. So it's like a dating agency bunch and people up together. The last six years we've been planting productive trees was puzzled me that in the last fourteen. We've perfected the art of designing completely useless urban landscapes. So we've planted now about three hundred fruits and nuts trees throughout the town parks. Unloved Chona's have things that promote cycling. We have local currency pound which. Incentivizes people to support local businesses and reconnect them with with the likely comedy of the town, taking only spend that money end Tana. Yeah. So if you go to the next town, it has value to but in the town, it's accepted by ninety trade is now and the notes are much more beautiful than sterling I think any day. So if you were to take this model into the future this model that uses less oil and better for the planet. What does that future? Look like. So when economists talk about this idea the multiplier effects, so if I go shopping in a local shop, and I spend a dollar in in local businesses in a local independent business that leads to two and a half dollars worth of economic benefits in my community, if I shop in a supermarket and leads to one dollar forty worth of economic activity. So for me what it looks like his an economy based on that idea. And yes, designing communities around local resources is not necessarily a new idea. But it is a relatively simple one and ideas that is easily replicated anywhere. So the question I like to to leave you with really is for all aspects of the things that your community needs in order to thrive. How can it be done in such a way that drastically reduces its common emissions while also building resilience? Personally, I feel enormously. Grateful to have lived through the age of cheap oil. I've been astonishingly lucky we've been astonishingly lucky. But let us on a what it is bought us and move forward from this point because if we cling to it and continue to assume that it can underpin choices the future that presents to us is which is really unmanageable and by loving and leaving all that oil has done for us. The oil age is done for us. We are able to them begin the creation of a of a world, which is more resilient more nourishing, and in which we find ourselves fitter more skilled and more connected to each other. Thank you very much. Brad hopkins. His group is called transition network. You can find out more about what they're doing at transition network dot org, and you can see Rob's full talk and Ted dot com. You're listening to the Ted radio hour from NPR guy. Roz were talking about how to use and preserve finite resources on the show today, which few people in all of human history did better than macgyver from that AT show McGovern. Was my end remains my favorite TV action. This is novel. Roger he's an innovation consultants and macgyver fan. You will find themselves in all kind of crazy places, you know, in a prison cell in somewhere in South America org days. Macgyver, think lope, and he will just look around and you will find some resources smoke alarm sheet plywood that for us doesn't look like something to create a solution just might work, but you can do it. That dude made like jet packs of toilet rolls. Yes. Yes. I mean, what I like about this guy is that, you know, unlike GM's, spawning doesn't wear fancy suit he doesn't have a Rolex, James q. Macgyver. Toilet rolls. Exactly. Governor is like, you know, it's a one man show. Is probably such a macgyver enthusiast because he grew up in a place where he had to be resourceful in the city of punditry. India it's a very dry climate. So you don't have much water. An atrocity was in short supply for me. It's like living with less is almost like the norm about eighteen years ago. Not be moved to Silicon Valley, and he started consulting for tech companies and instead of being loud by their innovation. He was baffled by how casually they were wasting basic resources. The one thing that struck me all the time is to see in the evenings all these office buildings being lit up. That's something. I never understood is the nobody working there after six PM. But I just see like. It's all it up the other resource, and I've noticed companies squandering money specifically when it came to research and development, just because you invest more are indeed doesn't make a company no more innovative. Maybe we need to look at a different innovating, maybe innovation. He thought would happen in a more constrained environment. Because when you put a limitation on resources, you remove limitation right on creativity. Because necessarily is the mother of invention now the calls this idea frugal innovation in believes big tech companies could learn from inventors in the developing world, here's his Ted talk for the past seven years higher met and studied hundred of entrepreneurs in India, China Africa and South America, and they keep amazing. Many of them did not go to school. They don't invent stuff in big Ernie labs. The street is the loud why they do that. Because they don't have the kind of basic resources, we take for granted like capital energy and basic services like healthcare education are also scarce in those regions take months project, Patty porter in India. Here's created a fridge made entirely of clay that consumes no electricity. He can keep fruit and vegetables fresh for many days in Africa. If you run out of your cell phone battery, don't panic you'll find some resources entrepreneurs who can recharge your cell phone using the bicycles. Let's go to in Peru a region with high quality and receives one one inch of rainfall. Each year entering college in Lima designed a giant advertising billboard that absorbs air immunity and converts it into purified water generating over ninety liters of water every day that can literally create water out of thin air. In india? We call it God God is a Hindi word that means an improvise fixed clever solution born in adversity. Yeah. I mean in some ways, you're more liberated when you don't have as many resources, I think so because always believed that nothing to lose the sky's the limit. So I think that a lot of companies are awhile stopping averting and die like Kodak right completely the distribution is because they come so risk averse. So that means they have too much to lose. So when you're too much to lose you only take baby steps in terms of discovery of new things. But when you start from the bottom, you have nothing to lose you are like an underdog. So when you are more on the offensive you tend to innovate. I believe that the only way we can sustain growth and for spirit in the west is a learned to do more with less. The good new says that starting to happen several western companies are now adopting ovation to create a photo products for western consumers. Let me give an example in China. The RND engineers of Simmons healthcare have designed a CD scanner that is easy enough to be used by less qualified health workers like, nurses, and technicians. This device can scan more patients on a daily basis, and yet consumes energy, which is great for hospitals. But it's also great for patients because it reduces the cost of treatment by thirty percent and radiation those age by up to sixty percent. This solution was initially designed for the Chinese market. But now it's selling. Hotcakes in US in Europe. Where hospitals are pressured deliver quality care at lower cost. Ultimately, we would like to see developed countries and developing countries come together and co create solutions that benefit entire vanity. So sounds like you're proposing. We completely re imagine the way we make things I would say, yes, absolutely. We have to fundamentally redesign products. Rethink the whole supply chain. My feeling is that what you begin to see is that companies also are now recognizing and research shows, more and more. There is indeed in a way growing awareness among consumers around issues related to the environment. So they also expect companies to behave more environmentally responsible way. So I think it's going to happen. You know, gradual in US, but when I look at Europe or Asia, I actually see lot more aggressive moves by the governments by citizens, and by companies to actually embrace new innovation techniques that are more resources associations as an Indian-born. French national was. The United States. My hope is that can harness the collective ingenuity of innovators from around the world to co create frugal solutions that will improve the quality of life of everyone in the world while preserving our precious planet. Thank you very much. Regio? He's the co author of the books frugal innovation and to God innovation. You can see his entire talk at Ted dot com. Three hundred fifty. And the world just thirty. These are the limits to experience. And. Thing is. Hey, thanks for listening to our show this week on finite resources. If you wanna find out more about who was on at checkout. Ted dot NPR dot org are production staff. At NPR includes Jeff Rodgers Bachman, Megan Kane, Neva grant and some version for. Shkin for with help from Daniel Shchukin. Our intern Sharif Yusef our partners at Ted include Chris Anderson, June Cohen Darren trip and Janet Leigh. I'm guy rise. And you've been listening to ideas worth spreading right here on the Ted radio hour from NPR.

NPR Roz US Mark Plotkin Amazon infection Ted dot China Brazil South America John Foley Albert Alexander rob Hopkins India Comcast Microsoft Europe Peru California academy of sciences AT
Invention Playlist 4: Penicillin

Stuff To Blow Your Mind

52:12 min | 11 months ago

Invention Playlist 4: Penicillin

"Today's episode is brought to you by IBM. SMART is open open is smart. IBM's combining their industry expertise with open source leadership of Red Hat. Let's unlock the world's potential. Let's put smart to work. Learn more at IBM DOT com slash red hat. A class twenty twenty. We note things have been super weird lately robbed of a graduation ceremony, so found some people to write you. Clinton speeches John Legend. He's a Hillary Clinton. She's into over twenty of your favorites from Dj College Coach K. Abby Wambach to halls. They're all here to give you the wisdom that we could all use right now, Mrs I heart radio new podcast commencement speeches drop me fifteen on iheartradio APP and Sunday may seventeenth across all IHEART. Radio stations brought to you by state farm like a good neighbor state. Pharma's they're. Welcome to invention a production of iheartradio. Hey Welcome to invention. My name is Robert. Lamb and I'm Joe. McCormack and Robert. I know you WanNa talk about dnd before we get to the real subject. Well I don't know I. I was thinking about doing it last. We can go ahead and talk about it upfront. Dragons. These various Demon Lords, and they rule over various portions of the of the fiend population in the game, and they're to demon lords in particular that I was thinking about in regards today's episode and that that would be a boy and jubilee. So zagged Moi is the the demon Lord of Fungi, the Queen Fungi the master of decay and then opposing her. Ever at odds with her is jubilant, the faceless Lord which is God of Oozes and slimes and blobs. Losing Nasty creatures of Dungeons and dragons, and yeah, they oppose each other. They're a constant war with each other and in some. Campaigns like their forces, and even their their embodied forms do battle with one another and it. It actually ties in a bit with the subject. We're talking about today of penicillin. Penicillin the fungus that fights. I don't know. Would you call diseases slimes? Well I feel like jubilee, being the Demon Lord of uses and slimes kind of makes it the the demon Lord of of microbiology, as well and microbes and and microbial illnesses. So okay we'll so today we're going to be talking about. Penicillin may be one of the the great real weapons of Zog to Moi. Yes, but this this came up I think because we'd been talking about fungus on our other podcasts on stuff to blow your mind where we just finished recording a five part series on psychedelics yeah. Yeah looking at Fungal psychedelics ongoing research into how these substances could enhance our mental wellbeing and help in the treatment of psychological issues and one of our big take homes was that these fungi could help save lives and improve the quality of human life, but it would not be the first or only fungi to do so because we can certainly look to various interactions between human hell's the different fungal species and their use in traditional medicine. We can point to various products including products of fermentation for instance including alcohol. But, there's an even better example of better living through fungi in that's penicillin. Right so today we're going to briefly explore the invention of penicillin, which is often cited as. The first true antibiotic technology of course antibiotics are medications that treat infections by killing injuring or slowing the growth of bacteria in the body and antibiotics are a class of what you would generally call antimicrobial drugs medicines that kill microbes present a threat to the body of course, antibiotics generally fight bacterial infections, whereas you could have others like Antifungal 's that Fungal infections or antivirals that fight viral infections, no antimicrobials antibiotics are gigantic subject area that we're. We're of course not going to be able to get into every nook and cranny of the subjects, but we hope we could have a an interesting introductory introductory discussion. Maybe come back to antibiotics sometime again in the future because it's it's a broad invention that has lots of little invention tributaries throughout history. Yeah, but it is such a fascinating case to look at and I think should make for a great episode of invention here because. For starters it's it's a twentieth century invention. Slash discovery off, and of course, the line between invention and discovery is a little bit gray. But. We we can pinpoint it to nineteen twenty eight, and ultimately like rolled out by nineteen forty or so. That we can, we can look to it. We can look at the world before and we can look at the world after with with the sort of clarity that we don't always have with certainly the older or more ancient inventions, exactly because we always like to ask the question on the show what came before the invention what what changed when this invention came on the scene and what came before widespread modern antibiotics was stupendous amounts of death and misery from infectious disease in blood poisoning. I I was wondering like. Is it even possible? To to get stats on WHAT THE WORLD OF INFECTIOUS DISEASE! Look like before we had antibiotics mid twentieth century. Yeah, I mean to a certain extent. A lot of the suffering is just incalculable. Especially, if you go back and sort of consider all of human history up to that point in the various factors that that influenced infectious disease injury, you know the eventually the rise of germ theory, but also this things like the rise of cities and so forth, but but luckily yes, it was such a reason invention. We have some pretty incredible stats on the matter. Suddenly. Thanks to this new miracle. Drug Diseases that simply ravaged the global population like syphilis could be cured. The shadow of lethal infection no longer hung at least as heavily over every scrape, injury and war wound, and with wounds were often talking about Sepsis, which is a term that was used a by hippocrates back in the fourth century, BC meaning, blood, Rod, or blood poisoning, and he was referring more in generally I, think to decay, but the term came to be applied to blood poisoning, which arises when the body's response to infection causes because injury to its own tissue and organs. But just prior to the twentieth century, infectious diseases accounted for high morbidity and mortality rates around the world, even in the industrialized world, according to w. a. g. in the treasure called antibiotics from two thousand sixteen, the average life expectancy at birth was forty seven years. forty-six and forty eight years for men and women respectively, and this was due to the dangers of smallpox cholera. Diphtheria pneumonia, typhoid fever plague, tuberculosis, typhus, syphilis, and a host of other ailments. That could affliction. And, enduring the antibiotic era that follow again a rising in the middle of the twentieth century, the leading cause of death in the United States change from communicable diseases, noncommunicable diseases like Carter cardiovascular disease, cancer and stroke, and the average life expectancy at birth rose to seventy eight point eight years, so the elderly were no longer a mere four percent of the population grow to become a whopping thirteen percent of the population, so we're talking about profound changes. Demographics based on this new this new invention. Yeah, the changes huge. I mean we live in a world now. Where if you have access to high quality modern medicine? Medicine and a lot of people don't I mean insure mind, but if you have access to high quality, modern science based medicine, and you can get antibiotics and and can get to a hospital or see a doctor. You very likely have good chance to beat most of the common infectious diseases that that people get unless you have some kind of you know like another condition that exacerbates ed or something before antibiotics. This was just not the people just died from diseases that you catch like diseases that are common for people to catch all the time. Yeah, or you had certain diseases like syphilis that were virtually uncurable. Some of the the cures that were attempted were were pretty horrendous. And had an generally did not work. You know talking about using mercury and so forth, and you mentioned before contamination of wounds. I mean this is just a huge thing. Just like a you know you might You might cut yourself while gardening and you die from it. Yeah, heaven, forbid you undergo, say medieval. Gallstone surgery or something like that yeah! By the way I think tuberculosis has a you know is a good example to look at for some of these stats as well according to the CDC. TB was a leading cause of death in the US in nineteen, forty prior to the rollout of antibiotic therapy in one, thousand, nine, hundred, one, hundred, ninety, four of every one hundred thousand us. Residents died from deep TB. Most were residents of urban areas in one thousand, nine, hundred three leading causes of death in the US word pneumonia to. And diarrhea and Interruptus, which together with Diptheria caused one third of all deaths and of these deaths, forty percent were among children aged less than five years old. Now to your point in not everybody has. Access to antibiotics that say people enjoy in say Europe and the United States yeah. TB remains a the leading cause of death from an infectious disease in many parts of the world, particularly the developing world and some antibiotic treatments are in about assisted treatments are more complicated more difficult than others I mean I know. The treatment for TB is not as say easy is the round. Round of just orally administered antibiotics that you might get for a standard bacterial infection right, but it suddenly was just heralded rightfully, so is a is a miracle invention. When it came about you buy. I saw an image of a of sign on a garbage. Can or Mailbox from the Mid Twentieth Century Advertising that now you can get gonorrhea cured in like four hours. Thanks to the these new developments in antibiotics. It can be difficult to put ourselves in that mindset, having grown up in the wake of antibiotics, or at least most of us, most people listening to this show I was just thinking about how many like us. Presidents died of infections of various kinds. That seems like that would be a very unusual thing to happen now, but in the eighteen hundreds James Garfield got shot, but it wasn't the initial gunshot that killed him. Live for like I think weeks afterwards. he got an infection in the wound. Think because they were digging around with dirty hands to try to get the bullet out of him, and he and they didn't have antibiotics of course when he got an infection, so he died. I think another US was William Henry. Harrison, who I think, they down died from probably drinking fecal contaminated water and the White, house. Yeah, so many different injuries and infections were just far more likely to be lethal with you know. Know without modern antibiotics to step in and and aid in the fight. Now there were some things that were kind of like versions of antibiotics or antimicrobials from before the discovery of Penicillin in nineteen, twenty, eight, the best example from the period, just immediate immediately prior to penicillin would be the Fontham is or the sulphur drugs, and these were the first antibacterial to be used systematically, and they were synthesized in one, thousand, nine, hundred, thirty, two in the German laboratories of bear a G.. Now you might be thinking about the time line like wait a minute. Didn't we just say that penicillin was discovered in twenty eight, but it took a long time after the discovery of penicillins. Antibacterial Properties for it to be made a useful medical dry like it was nineteen forty. Generally, that's the day you see for when penicillin actually became. An actionable thing in medicine. So before that we had The the SOFA drugs, and it had they had a rocky start, but they did prove very effective in preventing wound infections during the Second World War, they were used on both sides in the in the form of soulful pills, and also south powders that would be sprinkled over a wound so if you've ever watched A. Lot of the. Period piece so especially a war piece of the twentieth century and you see somebody sprinkling powder mover injury. That is what that's supposed to be sulphur drugs. They're not as effective. Is True Antibiotics like penicillin? In there are a number of possible side effects that one that can take place, and it also can't be used to treat syphilis, and it also can't treat SOFA resistant infections. Now, of course, this is also a twentieth century invention so I was wondering. Did anybody come up with any version of antibiotics or Proto antibiotics? Before the Twentieth Century? We know penicillin hadn't been discovered and isolated and made stable as a useful medicine, but were there any things like antibiotics are sort of precursors of antibiotic, because in game of thrones right? They have penicillin, don't they? Were they have some sort of fantasy version? I've never heard of that, don't they? Have something that that the the the naysayers would mention having to do with Brad and mold or something. I don't remember that I. Just remember people get cuts, and then they get infected and die. Give him milk of the poppy. They have milk in the poppy. Maybe you're at our game of thrones our. George Martin. Readers left to right in on that but I vaguely remember there being like allusion to something like some sort of mole based. Medicine that they were using. I could be wrong on that well. I can't see that being something that's thrown in there as a little aside, but the like isn't widely recognized her us. And it's interesting how that kind of parallels. Some interesting pieces of evidence for Pro Antibiotic Technology in the real world, even going back to ancient times so I wanna look at the work of the emory university bio archaeologists, George J are mellow goes. Who is now deceased? I think he died in twenty fourteen but he's interesting interesting scholar and he discovered something very curious back in nineteen eighty, so the subject he was looking at was a set of human bones from ancient. Nubia dating. Dating from between three fifty and five fifty C E, and so the bones came from Nubia, which is a region of Africa long the Nile River, but south of Egypt in what would be modern day Sudan, and what these bones showed was evidence that the people they belong to had been taking tetracycline now. Tetracyclene is not the same as penicillin, but it is an antibiotic. It can be used to treat all kinds of infections for minor problems like acne I think in concert with some. Some other drugs two major diseases like plague or to leukemia, or even syphilis and tetracycline works primarily by binding to the ribes, oems of bacterial cells, ribes, oems or sort of the cellular factories they build proteins that are needed in order for organisms to live and grow, and by binding to the Ri- Zome, tetracycline makes it difficult for the bacterium to create new proteins. It was patented in the nineteen fifties became widely used in the second half of the Twentieth Century so what? What was it doing in the bones of Nubian people who live like seventeen hundred years ago, well Arm Lago sin colleagues followed archaeological clues to identify the source of the tetracycline was beer of course beer is another one of ultimately it falls under zagged noise domain Oh. Yeah, though this is different. Because tetracyclene is not made from a fungus, it is actually an antibacterial. That is a byproduct of some bacteria. Okay, so it's a bacterial byproduct, but essentially so technically it's duplex, okay? Point to jubilee? This is looks versus jubilee. That's going to happen with your demon. Lord introducing warfare. So beer is made from fermented grain of course and the fermented grain in this ancient Nubian beer apparently contained the bacteria streptomyces, which creates tetracycline as a byproduct, but question of course were these traces of tetracycline in Nubian mummy bones. Of like a bad batch of beer, the got contaminated by accident, or were these people deliberately culturing their beer with antibiotic, producing bacteria, and so to look at a study from the American Journal of Physical Anthropology from twenty, ten of which are was one of the authors the authors examined tetracycline in skeletal remains from throughout this period, and the evidence indicates that the ancient Nubians were consuming these antibiotics on a regular basis in the authors suggest that these ancient people were intentionally producing this medicine and this links up with some evidence from other ancient. Ancient peoples nearby such as the Egyptians that sometimes apparently used beer as a treatment for conditions like gum, disease, and other types of infections in the authors even found evidence of a four year old child, whose skull contained lots of tetracycline from this beer, suggesting that the child had been fed high doses of this like antibiotic beer, perhaps in an attempt to cure illness, maybe the illness that killed him, and so the levels of tetracycline residue found in the bones of these mummies is only explicable if they were repeatedly consuming this antibiotic in their diet. And there are actually other archaeological remains that show evidence of antibiotic use in the ancient world for example samples taken from the era of skeletons from the Dock Leo ACIS in Egypt from people who live sometime in the late Roman period, also showed evidence of the same thing of tetracycline in the Diet and this consumption of tetracyclene is consistent with other evidence, showing a relatively low rate of infectious disease in Sudanese Nubia during that time period. And a lack of bone infections apparent in these remains from the basis in Egypt so. It really does look like people in ancient Africa discovered a somewhat effective form of antibiotics centuries before the discovery of penicillin and the isolation and mass production of focused anti microbial medicines now to be clear I think like a beer that had tetracycline content from from being cultured with bacteria, like this probably would not be as potent and focused ineffective as like the isolated compounds in the drugs take orally or through injection would be today right, but it would have some effect, and it appeared that it probably was somewhat effective in fighting infectious disease right, and of course they. They wouldn't know exactly what they had here, but they knew they had some sort of beer. Beer that seemed to some sort of holy liquid that that that had some sort of curative property to it exactly I mean if a fascinating discovery from the ancient world, an interesting fact tetracycline is relatively unique in that leaves clear signatures in the bones that can be discovered long after the person has died so other antibiotics don't leave these clear markers like this that make it easy for archaeologists to detect, so you have to wonder like are. Were there other cases of ancient peoples in various places in times using some kind of antibiotics, bacterial or fungal cultures to treat diseases like these ancient Nubian. People were but that we don't have evidence of. It doesn't show up in the bones like tetracycline does. Yeah, it could've just been lost to history I was reading an interesting paper from frontiers in microbiology in two thousand and ten by Reuss Domino, called a brief history of the antibiotic Era Lessons Learned and challenges for the future and Aminov points out this unique quality of tetracycline notes. Just what I was basically just saying like how easy it would be for evidence of other uses of antibiotics in the ancient world to be lost to us, though he he also mentioned that there are other anecdotes from history about cultural traditions. Traditions that show Proto antibiotic technologies in these other examples would include red soils found in Jordan that are used for treating skin infections. It's been discovered that these soils contain some antibiotic producing organisms I'd guess there are probably also some major risks in applying soil to wounds, and then also plants used in traditional Chinese medicine that actually do have some antimicrobial properties. Yeah, because one thing we have to remember the modern antibiotic effort is ultimately based in going out into the natural world in finding these weapons that already exist, and then you re using them in adapting them. For Human Madison and you know this is essentially what is going on in traditional medicines as well, and it also means that there are weapons out there that either have not been discovered at all, especially in particularly vibrant ecosystem, some of which of course, the for are threatened all the more reason to. For us to not decimate say the rain, forest, deep ocean, right but then there are also things that may have been discovered to some degree in the past, but have been forgotten well. Yeah, that that does seem possible, because despite all all this evidence of ancient sort of Proto antibiotic technologies, the worldwide rates of death from infectious disease in the periods for which we. We have data right before the invention of modern antibiotics shows that humans generally did not have effective antimicrobials in that period, so maybe some of this knowledge was lost over time all right well on that note, we're gonNA. Take our first break, but when we come back, we're going to return to the mold research, the nineteenth century, and ultimately to our key inventor here Alexander Fleming. iheartradio and the US. Census Bureau wanted to do something special for the class of twenty twenty, so we made commencement a new podcast with words of inspiration from the biggest names like John Legend, Tim Cook and cash listen to iheartradio new podcast commencement in partnership with twenty twenty census speeches drop may fifteenth on iheartradio, APP or wherever you get your podcasts, remember you can do something that will affect the next ten years so if you lived in a dorm, don't worry. Your school will count you if you didn't visit twenty twenty census dot Gov, Slash Grad to be counted. That when Lexus opened its doors, one of the first steelers made important observation. Lexus wasn't in the car business. They were in the people business. Above all they needed to be helpful, respectful and compassionate. To treat people like guest. It's what they agreed to do from the start. And rededicate themselves to every day. Today, how we all interact with each other is changing, but who we are isn't in a time of uncertainty. We are all looking for new ways to be human to connect to reach out. To respond. Now when we need each other, most lexus will continue to do what they've always done. Take care of people first then the rest will follow. VISIT LEXUS DOT com slash people I to find out what Lexus is doing for their guests. Their employees am for our communities. All right. We're back now. We'll get to Alexander Fleming in a minute with the discovery of penicillin, but. AL exander Fleming was not the first. To notice that there might be some anti microbial properties of certain fungi. That's right. There was there was work going on in this area of prior to fling was was picking up on some of it and and really just overall understanding of a fun Guy in general was was advancing as we mentioned psychedelics, episodes you know there was a time where we did not recognize guys being separate from the realm of plants right before we realized that it was a kingdom unto itself in all ultimately kingdom that has a little more in common with the Animal Kingdom. It does with the plant kingdom. And little a lot of talented folks working in this area, but one of them. MIGHT COME A- surprise to a lot of people in. That's because her name was Beatrix Potter. Who the the Bunny Rabbit Bunny rabbits, yes, okay off the Bunny Rabbit fame. It was kind of a curious coincidence because I was reading about all this, and then just randomly on the stuff to remind mind discussion module, which is the facebook group for people listen to the show to discuss episodes. Someone brought up the trix. Potter in regards to something to do with squirrels because there's a lot of squirrel. Squirrel content in the discussion module and they brought up Beatrix Potter and Beatrix Potter actually ties in to this episode a little bit, because in addition to being the author and illustrator of the the tale of Peter Rabbit and associated British animal tales, she was also a naturalist with a great deal of interest in astronomy, and most importantly of all my call Aji, so she produced a lot of beautiful scientific watercolor illustrations of various fungi in her neck of the British, woods. And you know as part of her studies, and if you studied a lot of local molds as well and did illustrations of them. She's ultimately very interesting character that was. You know unfortunately she lives in a time in which you know? The sexism of the day prevented her from I. Think reaching the heights of in the natural sciences that she would have been afforded later on, but in a lot of her work is also just being. Think rediscovered and appreciated for the first time in recent decades, but yeah the next time someone busts out some dietrich's Potter A. Remember this is not just. An individual who wrote some fanciful tales and illustrated them. She was also just she was out there, studying the natural world, and in create in in advancing our understanding of the my college, she was sort of a looking into the hidden life of nature in multiple ways. Yeah, no, and I see some sources that are asking the question. Okay was Beatrix Potter, she a true naturalist, true natural scientists over she just to. Lead an amateur. That was just very interested in things and I. Don't know it's kind of a COUPLA question. Ask when you consider like the limitations in the Victorian era for women, a but I I think undoubtedly she she i. I would side with the fact that she was a natural scientist she authored, or co authored one paper. If I remember correctly so I'm I'm gonNA give her giver. Full credit was about fungi. it was it was a mushroom. In particular I forget was one of those related to the Russillo Mushrooms, but forget which species? But Bama basically she was. She was kind of up against the. The patriarchy for the most part though yeah. Well. Is it time to turn to penicillin itself yes? Let's turn to the key discovery here and our inventor are discover. Alexander Fleming. Okay, so who was Alexander? Fleming, okay so Fleming was born in eighteen, eighty, one died in nineteen, fifty five, and he was a Scottish biologist physician, microbiologist and pharmacologist. He was the son of a farmer, and he observed and studied a great deal of death from Sepsis in World War One. he observed that while antiseptics worked well at the surface. A deeper wounds, sheltered bacteria from the effects of things like sulfur drugs right so if you have kind of superficial wound, you could clean it off pretty good, and and that might help protect you from from bacterial infection, but if you have a deep wound and say like dirty stuff, bits of soil and other you know just crud gets lodged deep in there. You might not be able to clean the wound out very well right, and that's exactly the kind of stuff that's going to get lodged in there especially with your war ones where there is a stab or or or deep cut or a bullet entering the body, we'll makes me think about the when we were reading about the idea of Stegosaurus, perhaps weapon I mean not consciously Stegosaurus, perhaps having an adaptation to weaponize infection against its enemies by dragging its Tagamet bikes through the Dung right exactly yeah, having dirty Bagga miser spikes, and then when it wax the T. rex in the crotch with them, the that gets infected later in eliminates a Predator from the area and the the the predators of the day would not have had access to antibiotics, certainly not or even that beer from the. We mentioned earlier so. Full Fling? Devoted himself to research and he it prior to penicillin, he discovered a license Zayn naturally occurring enzyme in mucus and other parts of the body than inhibits bacteria, so he was already. You know in this this area looking for for new new breakthroughs new discoveries. But, then his biggest breakthrough of all is this discovery of penicillin, and it's truly one of the more amazing inventions slash discovery moments from history, because while he was exactly the right person to make the discovery, and then deserves all the credit was given. The key moment comes down really too pure luck, and we simply don't know if anyone else would have made the discovery if he had not been there to observe it, okay, so what happened with this discovery so around like nineteen, twenty seven, or so he had engaged himself in studying STAPHYLOCOCCI the or know staff and he had stacks. Stacks of Petri dishes displacements in his lab described as kind of an untidy lab. So you know imagining all these likes like Petri dishes, full staff, all over the place notes, and so forth, and so the key moment comes in September of Nineteen Twenty eight right right so he has these staff petri dishes out, and he leaves them for the weekend to go on holiday with his family, and he when he comes back expected to see how they've progressed. See how they've grown a, but he finds that they haven't grown. In fact, they have died. Something has ravaged his specimens. Yeah, now. This is one of those stories where it gets very narrative is so you do have to wonder if some details of it or embellished and how the story may have changed over time, but this is the way the story has been passed down and I think it seems to be largely basically true the way that I've seen. The story often told us that. He comes in. There's a blob of mold growing in one of the plates and all around the mold. There's this halo of nothingness. Where normally what you would see is that if you got a plate for culturing bacteria, there would be these little dots in blobs on the on the late. But instead there's this halo where there's no bacteria bacterial dead zone now, of course we know staphylococcus is is a bacterium, grouped linked to all kinds of human disease and misery. staph infections right if this mold could kill staff that seems medically relevant. So what happened here? He he he realized that he was dealing with some sort of a fun guy. So, he Luckily there was a microbiologist with lab just below Fleming on the floor below his lab. A man by the name of CJ LA, Touche, and in fact it's also been suspected that the mold and question that killed. Fleming's staff might have drifted up from Latouche as lab adding an extra element of weird chance to this whole situation. Okay, so perhaps his samples were contaminated by stuff from the lab next door down a floor, right. That's not that's not a theory that's presented in every source does pop up fairly frequently so specifically? This mold was what would later be identified as a strain of penicillin, no Tottenham and it was obvious that it's secreted something that prevented staph bacteria from growing and so fleming followed up in studying the secretion. This this mold juices I've seen it called. He found it didn't only prevent the growth of staphylococcus. It worked against common bacteria like streptococcus or meningococcus and and the back, and also against the bacterium that Causes Diptheria, interestingly, while Fleming did see applications for penicillin and curing disease, and he mentioned briefly in the paper, he published in Nineteen, twenty nine about this discovery about the the antibacterial properties of concilium he primarily thought of this secretion of penicillin as a tool for bacteriologist to sort strains of bacteria, basically independent, sensitive versus non penicillin, sensitive species, and the that that could be useful in the lab. Yeah, so he sometimes criticised is really not. Not Understanding completely what he had here not having the vision to see where could go well I don't think he completely understood, but he he did indicate that this could possibly have uses in medicine right so Fleming and his assistance. Stewart craddock and Frederick Ridley tried for years to turn this accidental discovery into a stable isolated compound. That would be useful and this. This was a problem because like so you've got this secretion from the mold molds making some juice. It's kind of getting stuff wet with this this stuff that that that fights bacterial growth, but they couldn't isolate the compound that was causing the. The effect and stabilize it and make it make it generally useful so to quote from Aminov. Paper Aminov that I mentioned earlier quote for twelve years after his initial observation Alexander Fleming was trying to get chemists interested in resolving persisting problems with the purification and stability of the active substance and supplied the penicillin strain to anyone requesting it, but he really he, he could never cracked the nut oatmeal and he didn't finally make this discovery of the process I for stabilizing and isolating the compound and by nineteen forty. Aminov writes that fly. Ming finally abandoned his quest wood. Fortunately, it was right about that. That time that capable team at Oxford University, including the researchers Howard flurry in Ernst chain or Chine. They picked up on this research and they. They kicked off the research project that would eventually break through on this and they're all these interesting story, so of course, this is while World War Two is going on right so research conditions are not ideal, and there are all these stories about how they turned their lab, at Oxford into this giant incubation center, or factory for mold, like they employed all these lab assistants who were these women who had been referred to in some sources as the penicillin girls. And they would work too like they would work to grow the penicillin and buckets and tubs, and basically every container that they could And eventually they did. They were able to isolate and stabilize this compound so to quote from an Article from the American Chemical Society. In nineteen forty Flory, it'd be Howard Florey carried out vital experiments, showing that penicillin could protect mice against infection from deadly STREPTOCOCCI then on February. Twelfth Nineteen, forty, one, a forty three year, old policeman Albert Alexander became the first recipient of the Oxford Penicillin he'd scratched the side of his mouth while pruning roses, and developed a life threatening infection with huge abscesses affecting. Affecting his is facing lungs, penicillin was injected and within days he made a remarkable recovery while, but unfortunately despite this recovery, which lasted for a few days they ran out of the drug and Alexander, eventually got worse again, and he died and I was reading that they were so desperate to cure him that after Alexander urinated while on his antibiotic course, they would. Would collect the urine and try to extract the penicillin. He excreted again so that it could be re administered to him. and I should mention also that the the process that the Oxford team relied on to extract and purify the penicillin. The mold juice was led by another important biochemist, a guy named Norman Heatley but this case of Albert Alexander shows. Shows an obvious early problem they had which was the problem of scale. They simply lacked the ability to make penicillin scale it that would be needed to even one person. Let alone. The whole world the strain of mold that they were using didn't make enough of it, and this led to the search for other species of the same fungal genus concilium. concilium, which would maybe they thought produce higher concentrations of the Penicillin Phil Trait, and I was reading an interesting article by the University of Michigan Physician and medical historian Howard Markel. That tells a really interesting story I'd never heard about this The so the story goes like this. Apparently, one of the assistance at the Oxford lab showed up for work one day. Day In nineteen, forty, one with a cantaloupe that she'd bought at the market because it was covered in a weird looking golden mold, which is great, because this would be the one case where somebody is picking over the fresh produce to like find the moldy one but the mold on this cantaloupe turned out to be a strain of penicillin called penicillin. Chris. Chris O. GM with Markle says naturally produced at least about two hundred times as much penicillin as the original strain that they've been studying and then later, markel writes the same strain was subjected to mutagenic processes in the lab, so like bombarding it with x rays and stuff to produce a mutated strain that would make up to a thousand times as much. Much insulin as the old school fleming mold so by nineteen forty one penicillin is on its way to becoming a viable medicine. All right on that note. We're GONNA take a quick break. When we come back, we're going to look at the impact of penicillin and we're going to look at it in a fun way by considering a really interesting. What if? iheartradio and state farm. It know that the graduation stage is the first of many, and while grads may not be walking across one this year. They can get the send-off. They've always dreamed of with our new podcast commencement, featuring inspiring speeches from the biggest names like John, Legend I'm honored to have the chance to speak to to share in this special. Katie couric. You'll need. Need some very important life skills to move forward. Perhaps the most important one is resilience. Chelsea handler dare to do things that scare you. If you can embrace the unknown and fully jump into what life has to offer you, there will be much to celebrate and much. Enjoy and cash reflect on the work you've done and celebrate moving into your new face these iconic. ICONIC NAMES ALL coming together to celebrate you. The class of twenty twenty listened iheartradio's new podcast commencement brought to you by state farm speeches drop may fifteenth on the iheartradio. APP, or wherever you get your podcasts and remember state farm will be there for this stage and every stage after like a good neighbor, state farm is there. This episode is brought to you by IBM. IBM Today the world looks pretty different, but already new problems are being met with new thinking. Researchers are using supercomputers to discover treatments faster retailers are turning to the cloud restock shelves more quickly. Teachers are working with Ai to think the classroom. It's not everything, but it's a start. Let's put smart to work. See How am helping at IBM, dot com slash covid nineteen? All right. We're back. So we often don't don't do a lot of what if on invention doubt, I thought we, we can do to certain extent, but I mean a lot of times. It's harder case to be made like what if this had not been invention in? Bill or discovered because in most cases you can, you can, you can look at the data you can look at other individuals were like if the Wright brothers had not invented, the airplane had not created that that I prototype that really showed what was possible like clearly there were there were other individuals in the world working on this. Someone cracked it. If if Rontgen had not discovered x rays in eighteen ninety whatever year it was, somebody else would have discovered them pretty soon right, but when it comes to penicillin, potentially gets a little more complicated than that. I ran across a cool article on the topic titled What Fleming had not discovered penicillin, and this was published in the Saudi Journal. Of Biological Sciences by all Harby at all. The authors admit that that certainly Fleming had made the discovery. Someone else might have in the years to follow probably in the early nineteen forties. They estimate so we could still will have have arrived in the antibacterial age. However, they also explore the possibility that we might have simply not made the discovery at all, and it's an interesting argument so I wonder I. WanNa read a quote from the paper here. Quote, of course, penicillin could have been discovered the day after Fleming miss the opportunity, but in reality there was no parallel discovery that took place as a result anyone taking an interest in penicillin during the nineteen thirties did so in the knowledge of Fleming's work. In particular, the seems no reason to believe that flory and chain would have discovered penicillin since their work depended on Fleming's famous paper and their access to one of his penicillin producing cultures. Okay, so that's referring to the thing. I mentioned about how how Fleming in his. His assistance were just like sharing the penicillin strain out with everybody like hey, can you figure out what's going on with this? Can you isolate the secretion the compound in the secretion? Yeah, so think about it. There was there was so far as these researchers can determine you know no other effort out there at the would have in struck paydirt in the absence of Fleming's research, the Oxford Group wouldn't have been looking for it. Someone walks men. The father of modern antibiotics called made several key discoveries later was also inspired by Fleming. Has One of these cases where like he seems to be the epicenter. Not only him, but just the the the the seemingly chance encounter in his lab that day that that we're suddenly, this halo appears in the Petri dish, and that gives birth to a to a whole class of other discoveries right because not all antibiotics are derived from penicillin penicillin, class of antibiotics become sort of like one sorta grandfather class, but then they're all these other classes that are discovered during this golden age of antibiotics that takes place over the next few decades. Yeah, and there are various just additional medical breakthroughs that would not have occurred without penicillin such as organ transplant. But then there's also the question like what would have what would have happened in the wider world because again, penicillin comes online during the second. World War. And so you can easily ask what would have happened if allied troops had not benefited from access to antibiotics at D Day I've never thought about that. I in fact I before looking at the I, probably would not have known the answer to whether or not. They had access to antibiotics well, penicillin production was actually swiftly scaled up just to make sure that allied soldiers had access to it at d day. So. There is a legitimate question to be asked. Might the allies not have won the Second World War without penicillin? I think there are a lot of factors to consider there. I, don't think it's quite gotcha question, but it's it's worth thinking about. The authors argue that without flemming's discovery would have had to depend on the SOFA drugs. An imperfect alternative to true antibiotics and these. These are described in the nineteen thirties and Fleming worked with him prior to his discovery. But without penicillin in play, the authors argue that soft drugs might have become the standard and even push the discovery of true antibiotics beyond the nineteen sixties, and this is also true of the Axis powers had risen in victorious in world. War Two because the access powers depended on sulphur drugs and their their key treatment You know they do point out that you know quote. Despite the fact that the Germans their allies, where at a considerable disadvantage, the soft drugs did a relatively good job at reducing battle casualties, so not to just completely cast, aside the effectiveness of soft drugs, but still they were not as effective as true antibiotics. It's weird to think about the political implications of specific medical technologies. Yeah, and then when you get down to the curious cases of individuals, it also gets interesting where he touched on presidents, who died? That would have lived potentially if there had been penicillin around right, and so they point out that that soft drugs save Churchill's life in nineteen, forty three when he was suffering from pneumonia I as well as FDR's life. But there's also evidence by the way that actual penicillin may have saved Hitler's life following the Stauffenberg assassination attempt of July. Twentieth Nineteen Forty Four. This was the plot that tried to kill Hitler with a briefcase bomb. Right like where does some of the officers conspired against him? And they put briefcase bomb in the room with him, and it did explode, but he was protected by a heavy table that prevented it from killing him. He was obviously injured and I think he had like damn edge dried. So the idea here is that perhaps his injuries were treated by by penicillin. Yeah, that's at least an argument has been made that they had access to penicillin. I'm unclear on how they would have obtained it, you know. Maybe, there's a spy story there. I don't know but the idea being well. If he had it have access to penicillin, then perhaps he would have died, and that would've arguably ended the war in a different manner, forcing us to re imagine an entirely different postwar world. So again. We're playing with with what you have here and in also we understand we don't know for sure that Hitler had access to penicillin following that assassination attempt, but there is the overall scenario of the allies having penicillin having ramped up penicillin production leading into D day. Yeah, that is really interesting I never contemplated that before. now. That I we do often have to think about, and we should probably acknowledge at the end here before we move on. Maybe this'll be something to come back in. Do in the future with the recent invention episode is the idea of a possible end of the antibiotics. Thing to imagine like what if the antibiotics is essentially a period in history that has a beginning and an end. Because as we you've. You've probably heard about this. Many disease causing bacteria, other disease, causing microbes are overtime evolving antibiotic resistance are evolving to to be powerful enough to survive are antimicrobial drugs, and I think specifically one thing that's exacerbating this overuse of antibiotics and people, not the entire course of antibiotics when they're given them. Yeah, because again, come back to the zagged Malloy Jubilee. War Scenario, you know. It is an ongoing battle and the forces evolve. To. Better deal with the threats on each side and so. We're we're? We're seeing this occur. We're seeing the overuse of antibiotics producing. Strains that are that are resistant, and it's reversing some of the therapeutic miracles of the last fifty years, and and underscores the importance of disease prevention in addition to treatment, and that means not not abandoning some of our other vital tool for human health like vaccination. Oh, yeah we should come back and revisit vaccination. Maybe, even various different vaccinations in the future. Another thing to keep in mind. I don't think we've mentioned earlier. was that the nineteen forties with one thousand nine hundred seventy s? Are considered like the Golden Age of Antibiotic Research, yeah and we haven't seen at least if you haven't seen any new classes of antibiotics emerged since that time period right now there have been new developments in antibiotics, but I think the way I've read. It is that they're generally modifications zone existing classes of antibiotics sorta like we we haven't. We haven't found anything radically new. Since then basically we reached out into the natural war between between fungi and the microbial legions and we. We stole some of the tools. We stole some of that prometheus fire. Day We keep adapting that fire to our own purposes, but we haven't. We haven't found any new weapon from that world and and then their ongoing war continues to change. I'd be interested Do you out there? You the listener, Dee, work in medical research or you working on areas involved in antibiotic resistance, the future of anti-microbials I please get in touch with us. I would like to hear about that. What what are you doing in your work? And what does the future look like to you on the inside? Absolutely we would. We would love to hear from you. Again? We only really scratched the surface here. Though thanks to antibiotics, hopefully that scratch will not. Life threatening infection. But? Yeah, there's a lot more history here, but but hopefully what we've done here. Today is of course, highlight just a very very cool story from the history of inventions and discoveries in human history, and outlined the impact of of one of the greatest inventions or discoveries again how you want to classify it from the twentieth century yeah totally. In the meantime. If you want to check out other episodes of invention, you can check out our homepage invention pod dot com, and that'll have all the episodes right there. If you want to support the show and we would appreciate it if you did support show, there are a few simple things you can do. Tell friends about it, you know. Tell Tell Your family members about invention and. And then if you have the ability to do so rate and review US wherever you got this podcast, thanks as always to are excellent audio producer Maya Coal. If you'd like to get in touch with us to let us know feedback on this episode or any other to suggested topic for the future or just to say hello, you can email us at contact at invention part dot com. Invention is production of iheartradio for more podcasts. My heart radio is iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. A twenty twenty. We know things have been super weird lately were robbed of a graduation ceremony, so we found some people to write you. Clinton speeches John Legend Pisa Clinton into over twenty of your favorites from Dj College Coach K. Abby Wambach two halls. They're all here to give you the wisdom that we could all use right now. Listen to iheartradio new podcast. Commencement speeches dropped me fifteen iheartradio APP ends. Sunday may seventeenth across all I. Heart Radio Stations brought to you by state farm like a good neighbor. State farm is there.

penicillin AL exander Fleming US Penicillin Twentieth Century John Legend IBM Oxford Penicillin Beatrix Potter Sepsis syphilis Alexander Fleming tetracycline Albert Alexander Red Hat Hillary Clinton Coach K. Abby Wambach zagged Moi Lamb
Penicillin

Invention

51:07 min | 1 year ago

Penicillin

"Hey Joe we talk a lot of a lot of game changing technologies on the show <hes> why don't we talk about a great product from one of our sponsors that has only recently started to change the game. Okay I am intrigued. We're talking about see by a new player in the smart lighting and smart technology space if you're hesitant about making the transition into a smart home you're not alone but thankfully see by G._e.. Was designed for you okay. So what's the deal. Tell me about it all right. We're talking about voice in APP control bulbs that can be set to your schedule. We're talking about smart switches that can turn any traditional bulb into a smart one in short your one stop solution for smarter lighting. <hes> that's interesting we can learn more about Jeez amazing new suite of C. BY SMART lighting products at sea by DOT com that C. B. Y.. G. Dot com welcome to invention production of iheartradio. Hey Welcome to invention. My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormack and Robert. I know you WanNa Talk About D._N._D.. Indeed before we get to the real subject well. I don't know I was thinking about doing it last but we can go ahead and talk about it up front yeah we'll in dungeons and dragons these various Demon Lords and uh they they rule over various portions of the of the fiend population in the game and their two demon lords in particular that I was thinking about in regards to today's episode <hes> and that that would be boy and Jubilee Eulex so zagged Moi is the demon Lord of fungi the Queen of fungi the master of decay and then opposing her ever at odds with their is jubilee the faceless as Lord which is a god of loses and slimes and blobs you know all the losing nasty creatures of Dungeons and dragons and yeah there they oppose each other their constant war with each other and in some campaigns like their forces and even they're they're in embodied forms do battle with one another and it it actually ties in a bit with this subject. We're talking about today of penicillin okay so penicillin the fungus that fights I don't know would you call diseases diseases slimes well I feel like jubilee being the Demon Lord of Oozes and slimes kind of makes it the the Demon Lord of of microbiology as well and <hes> you know microbes and <hes> and microbial illnesses so okay well so today we're going to be talking about penicillin. I guess maybe one of the the great real weapons of spoke to Moi yes <hes> but this this came up I think because we'd been talking about fungus on our other podcasts on stuff to blow your mind where we just finished recording a five part series on psychedelics yeah yeah looking at <hes> Fungal psychedelics and ongoing research into how these substances could enhance our mental wellbeing and helping the treatment of psychological issues and one of our big take home was these fungi could help save lives improve the quality of human life but it would not be the first or only fungi to do so because we can certainly look to various interactions between human. Hell's the different fungi species and their use in traditional medicine. We can point to various various products including <hes> products of fermentation for instance including alcohol but there's an even better example of better living through fungi in that's penicillin right so today we're going to briefly explore the invention of penicillin which is often cited as the first true antibiotic technology of course antibiotics are medications that treat infections by killing injuring or slowing the growth of bacteria in the body and antibiotics are a class of what you would generally call whole antimicrobial drugs medicines that kill microbes that presents a threat to the body of course antibiotics generally fight bacterial infections whereas you could have others like Antifungal that fight Fungal infections or antivirals that fight viral infections and now antimicrobials antibiotics are a gigantic subject area that we're of course not going to be able to get into every nook and cranny of the subjects but we hope we could have an interesting introductory introductory discussion may become back to antibiotics sometime sometime again in the future because it's it's a broad invention that has lots of little invention tributaries throughout history yeah but it is such a fascinating case to look at and I think should make for a great episode of invention here because for starters it's it's a twentieth century century invention slash discovery off and of course the line between invasion of discovery is a little bit gray but we we can pinpoint it to nineteen twenty eight and ultimately like rolled out by nineteen forty or so <hes> but we can we can look to it we can look at the world before we can look at the world after with with the sort of clarity that we don't always have with <hes> certainly <hes> older or more ancient inventions exactly because we always like to ask the question on the show what came before the invention what what changed when this invention mentioned came on the scene <hes> and what became before widespread modern antibiotics was stupendous amounts of death and misery from infectious disease in blood poisoning. I I was wondering like is it even possible to to get stats on what the world of infectious disease looked like before we had antibiotics around the Mid Twentieth Century Yeah I mean to a certain extent. A lot of the suffering is just incalculable. <hes> you know especially if you go back and sort of consider all of human history up to that point in the various factors that that influenced infectious disease and injury you know the the eventually the rise of germ theory but also this things like that the rise of cities and so forth but but luckily yeah since it was such a reason invention we have some pretty incredible stats on the matter. Suddenly thanks to this new miracle drug diseases that simply ravaged the global population like syphilis could be cured the shadow of lethal lethem infection no longer hung at least as heavily over every scrape injury and war wound and with wounds were often talking about sepsis which is a term that was used a by hippocrates back in the fourth century B._C.. Meaning blood rod or blood poisoning and he was referring more in generally. I think to decay but the term came to be applied to blood poisoning which arises when the body's response to infection causes causes injury to its own tissue and organs but just prior to the twentieth century infectious diseases accounted for high morbidity and mortality rates around the world even in the industrialized world according to w. a. g. in the treasure called antibiotics from two thousand sixteen. The average life life expectancy at birth was forty seven years forty six forty eight years for men and women respectively and this was due to the dangers of smallpox cholera diptheria pneumonia typhoid fever plague tuberculosis closest typhus syphilis and host of other ailments that could afflict you and then during the antibiotic era <hes> they follow again a rising in the middle of the twentieth century. The leading cause of death in the United States change from communicable diseases uses to noncommunicable diseases like cardio cardiovascular disease cancer and stroke and the average life expectancy at birth rose to seventy eight point eight years so the elderly were no longer a mere four percent of the population violation but grow to become a whopping thirteen percent of the population so we're talking about profound changes demographics based on this new this new invention yeah the change is huge. I mean we live in a world now. Where if you have have access to high quality modern medicine and a lot of people don't necessarily mind but if you have access to high quality modern science based medicine and you can get antibiotics and <hes> and get to a hospital or or see a doctor you very likely likely have a good chance to beat most of the common infectious diseases that that people get unless you have some kind of you know like another condition that exacerbates it or something before antibiotics? This was just not the people just died from diseases that. You catch like diseases that are common for people to catch all the time yeah or you had certain diseases like syphilis that were virtually uncurable yeah you know and and some of the the cures that were attempted were were pretty horrendous in in and had an generally did not work you know talking about using mercury and so forth and you mentioned before contamination of wounds. I mean just a huge thing just like a you know you might <hes> you might cut yourself while gardening and you die from it it yeah heaven forbid you undergo say Medieval Gallstone surgery or something like that yeah by the way I think <hes> tuberculosis has you know is a good example to look at for some of these stats as well according to the C._D._C.. It's <hes> was a leading cause of death in the U._S.. In one thousand nine hundred forty prior to the roll out of antibiotic therapy in nineteen hundred one hundred ninety four of every one hundred thousand U._S.. Residents died from deep T._B.. Most were residents of urban in areas in one thousand nine hundred three leading causes of death in the U._S.. where pneumonia tuberculosis and diarrhea and into rightous which together with Diptheria caused one third of all deaths and of these deaths forty percent were among children aged less than five years old now to your point in not everybody has the access to <hes> antibiotics that <hes> say people enjoy and say Europe and the United States Yeah T._b.? Remains a the leading cause of death from an infectious disease in many parts of the world particularly the developing world and some antibiotic treatments or antibiotic assisted treatments are more complicated and more difficult than others. I mean I know the treatment for T._B.. Is Not as say easy is the round of just orally administered antibiotics that you might get for a standard bacterial infection right but it suddenly it was just a heralded rightfully so is <hes> as a miracle invention when it came about I saw an image each of a of a sign on garbage can or mailbox from the Mid Twentieth Century advertising that now you can get gonorrhea cured in in like four hours thanks to the these new developments in antibiotics. It's just a it can be difficult to put ourselves in that mindset having grown up in the wake of antibiotics or at least most of us most people listening to this show. I was just thinking about how many like U._S.. Presidents died of infections ends of various kinds. That seems like that would be a very unusual thing to happen now but like in the eighteen hundreds James Garfield got shot but it wasn't the initial gunshot that killed him he lived for like weeks afterwards. <hes> he got an infection in the wound I think because they were digging around with dirty hands to try to get the bullet out of him and he and they didn't have antibiotics of course when he got an infection so he died. I think another U._S. was William Henry Harrison. I think they think Dow died from probably like drinking fecal contaminated water in the White House yeah so many different <hes> <hes> injuries and infections were just far more likely to be lethal with <hes> you know without modern antibiotics to step in and aid in the fight now there were some things that were kind of like versions of antibiotics or antimicrobials from before the discovery of Penicillin in nineteen twenty eight he had the best example from the period. Just immediate <hes> immediately prior to penicillin would be the demise the sulfur drugs and these were the first antibacterial to be used <hes> systematically and they were synthesized in nineteen thirty two in the German laboratories of bear a g now you might be thinking about the time line like wait a minute. Didn't we just say that penicillin was discovered in twenty eight but it took a long time after the discovery of penicillins antibacterial properties for it to be made as a useful medical dry like it was nineteen forty generally. That's the date you see for when penicillin actually became an actionable <hes> thing in Madison so yeah before that we had <hes> the the sulfur drugs and it had they had a rocky start but they did prove very effective in preventing wound infections during the Second World War they were used on both sides in the in the form of soulful pills and also sofa powders that would be sprinkled over a wound so if you've ever watched <hes> you know <hes> some sort of a period piece so especially a war piece of the twentieth century and he sees somebody sprinkling powder mover an injury that is what that's supposed to be sulfur drugs. They're not as effective is true. Antibiotics like penicillin and there are a number of possible side effects that one that can take place and it also can't be used to treat syphilis a- and it also can't treat <hes> <hes> Sofa resistant infections now of course this is also a twentieth century invention so I was wondering did anybody come up with any version of antibiotics or Proto Antibiotics before the twentieth century we you know the penicillin hadn't been discovered and isolated and made stable as a useful medicine but were there any things like antibiotics are sort of precursors of antibiotic because in game of thrones right. They have penicillin don't they they have some sort of fantasy version. I've never heard of that. Don't they have something that the the old naysayers would mention having to do with with Brad and mold or something didn't they. I don't remember that I just remember people get cuts and then they get infected and die. Give give him milk. They have milk poppy our game of thrones <hes> our our George Martin readers left or right in on that but I vaguely remember there being illusion to something like <hes> some sort of mole based <hes> medicine that they were using <hes> could be wrong well. I can't see that being something that's thrown in there as a little aside but like isn't widely recognized or used to be and it's interesting how that kind of parallels goals some interesting pieces of evidence for Proto Antibiotic Technology in the real world even going back to ancient times so <hes> I want to look at the work of the emory university bio archaeologist George J._R. Mela goes who is now deceased. I think he died in two thousand fourteen <hes> but he's interest- interesting scholar and he discovered something very curious back in nineteen eighty so the subject he was looking at was a set of human bones from ancient Nubia dating from between three fifty and five fifty c e and so the bones came from Nubia which is a region of Africa along the Nile River but south of Egypt in what would be modern day Sudan and what these bones orlands showed was evidence that the people they belong to had been taking tetracycline. Now tetracyclene is not the same as penicillin but it is an antibiotic it can be used to treat all kinds of infections for minor problems like acne. I think in concert with some other drugs <hes> two major diseases like plague or to leukemia or even syphilis and tetracycline works primarily by binding to the ribe `ISMs of bacterial cells ribes oems or sort of the cellular factories stories they build proteins that are needed in order for organisms to live and grow and by binding to the Ri- Zome tetracycline makes it difficult for the bacterium to create new proteins it was patented in the nineteen fifties and became widely used in in the second half of the Twentieth Century <hes> so what was it doing in the bones of Nubian people who live like seventeen hundred years ago well <hes> Armagh Logos and colleagues followed archaeological clues to identify the source of the tetracycline which was Bashir. <hes> of course beer is another one of <hes> ultimately it falls under Doug Moi's domain. Oh yeah though this is different because tetracycline is not made from fungus it is actually an antibacterial that is a byproduct of some bacteria arterial. Oh okay so it's a bacterial byproduct but essentially okay so technically it's duplex okay point to jubilee this jubilee versus Jubilee Right. I mean that's going to happen with your demon. Lords introducing warfare so so beer is made from fermented grain of course and the fermented grain in this ancient Nubian beer apparently contained the bacteria streptomycetes which creates tetracycline as a byproduct but a question of course. So like were these traces of tetracycline in Nubian mummy bones a sign of like a bad batch of beer. The got contaminated by accident or were these people deliberately culturing their beer with antibiotic producing bacteria and so to look at a study from the American Journal of Physical Anthropology from twenty ten of which <hes> Armagh Logos was one of the authors <hes> the authors examined tetracycline in skeletal remains from throughout this period and the evidence indicates that the ancient Nubians were consuming these antibiotics on a regular basis and the authors suggest that these ancient people were intentionally producing this medicine and this links up with some evidence from other ancient peoples nearby such as the Egyptians that sometimes apparently apparently used beer as a treatment for conditions like gum disease and other types of infections in the authors even found evidence of a four year old child whose skull contained lots of tetracycline from this beer suggesting that the child had been fed high doses of of this like antibiotic beer. Perhaps in an attempt to cure an illness. Maybe the illness that killed him and so the levels of tetracycline residue found in the bones of these mummies is only explicable if they were repeatedly consuming assuming this antibiotic in their Diet and there are actually other archaeological remains that show evidence of antibiotic use in the ancient world for example samples taken from the era of skeletons from the Dock Co.. ACIS in Egypt <hes> from people bull who lives sometime in the late Roman period also showed evidence of the same thing of tetracycline and the Diet and this consumption of tetracyclene is consistent with other evidence showing a relatively low rate of infectious disease in Sudanese. He's Nubia during that time period and a lack of bone infections apparent in these remains from the this oasis in Egypt so it really does look like people in ancient Africa discovered a somewhat effective form of antibiotics attics centuries before the discovery of penicillin and the isolation and mass production of focused anti microbial medicines now to be clear. I think like a beer that had tetracycline content from from being cultured with bacteria like this probably would not be the as potent and focused ineffective as like the isolated compounds in the drugs you take orally or through injection would be today right but it would have some effect and it appeared that it probably was somewhat effective in fighting infectious disease right and of course they they wouldn't know exactly what they had here but they knew they had some sort of beer that seemed to <hes> some sort of holy liquid that that that had some sort of curative property to it exactly I mean if fascinating discovery from the ancient world <hes> another interesting in fact tetracycline is relatively unique in that it leaves clear signatures in the bones that can be discovered long after the person has died so other antibiotics. Don't leave these clear markers like this that make it easy for archaeologists us to detect so you have to wonder like are they were there other cases of ancient peoples in various places in times using some kind of antibiotics or bacterial or fungal cultures <hes> to treat diseases like these ancient Nubian people were <hes> but that we don't have evidence of because it doesn't show up in the bones like tetracycline does yeah it could've just been lost to history. <hes> I was reading an interesting paper from frontiers in microbiology in two thousand intend by Rustam Domino called a brief history of the antibiotic Era Lessons Learned and challenges for the future and Aminov points out this unique quality of tetracycline and notes just what I was basically just saying how easy it would be for evidence in other uses of antibiotics in the ancient world to be lost to us though he he also mentioned that there are other anecdotes from history about cultural traditions that show Proto antibiotic technologies in these other examples would include red soils els found in Jordan that are used for treating skin infections. It's been discovered these soils contain some antibiotic producing organisms though I guess they're probably also some major risks in applying soil to wounds <hes> and then also plants used it in traditional Chinese medicine that actually do have some antimicrobial properties yeah because one thing we have to remember as like the modern anti biotic effort is ultimately based in going out into the natural world in finding these weapons that already exist I yeah and then you re using them in adapting them of for Human Madison and you know this is essentially what is going on in traditional medicines as well and it also means that there are weapons out there that either have not been discovered at all especially in particularly vibrant ecosystem some of which of course of threatened all the more reason to <hes> for us to <hes> not decimate <hes> say the rain forests or the deep ocean right <hes> but then there are also things that may have been discovered to some degree in the past but have been forgotten will yeah that that does seem possible because despite all all this evidence of ancient sort of Proto antibiotic technologies the worldwide rates of death from infectious disease in the period for which we have data right before the invention of modern antibiotics shows that humans generally did not have effective antimicrobials in that period so maybe some of this knowledge was lost over time all right well on that note. We're GONNA take our first break AAC but when we come back we're going to return to the mold research the nineteenth century and ultimately to our key inventor here Alexander Fleming all right so of course our sponsor today is C.. G. Lighting. I have not made the smart homes which yet Robert. I'm wondering if you can sell me on it <hes> yeah I can give it a shot. I mean you're definitely not alone but once you realize just how insanely simple it can make your life is almost hard to justify not switching it allows you to connect control and automate your lighting with a full suite of smart products. We're talking the ability to set lights to your schedule so you never have to come home to a dark house for example ability to set in turn on automatically to the perfect brightness every morning ability ability to control your lights and appliances remotely through your phone and the ability to set the perfect scene with the touch of a button and this can all be a reality with C. by G._e.. SMART home products to learn more about transitioning your home quickly and easily into a smartphone visit C by DOT com. That's C. B. Y.. G. E. DOT com all right. We're back now. We'll get to Alexander Fleming in a minute <hes> with the discovery of penicillin but Alexander Fleming was not the first person to notice that there might be some anti microbial properties of certain fungi. That's right there was there was work going on in this area of prior to Fleming Fleming was was picking up on some of it and <hes> and really just overall our understanding of a fun Guy <hes> in general was was advancing as we mentioned in our psychedelics episodes. You know there was a time where we did not recognize fun guy as being separate from the realm of plants right before we realized that it was a kingdom unto itself in all ultimately kingdom that has a little more in common with the Animal Kingdom than it does with the plant kingdom and a lot of talented folks working in this area but one of them might come as surprise to a lot of people <hes> and that's because her name was Beatrix Potter the Bunny Rabbit a bunny rabbits. Yes okay off the bunny rabbit fame. I was kind of a curious coincidence because I was reading about all this and then just randomly on the stuff to your discussion module. Which is the facebook group for people listen to the show to discuss episodes? Someone brought up Beatrice Potter in regards to something to do with squirrels because there's a lot of squirrel squirrel content tint in the discussion module and they brought up Beatrix Potter and Beatrix Potter actually ties in to this episode a little bit because in addition to being the author and illustrator of the you know the tale of Peter Rabbit and associated British animal tales she was also a naturalist with a great deal of interest in astronomy and most importantly of all my college so she produced a lot of beautiful scientific watercolor illustrations of various fungi in her neck of the British would. And you know as part of her studies and if you studied a lot of local molds as well and did illustrations of them you know she's ultimately a very interesting character that was you know unfortunately she lives in a time in which you know the sexism of the day prevented her from reaching the heights of in the natural sciences that she would have been afforded later on but in a lot of her work is also just being I think rediscovered in appreciated for the first time <hes> <hes> you know in recent decades but yeah the next time someone busts out some metrics potter A. Remember this is not just a an individual who wrote some fanciful tales and illustrated them. She was also just she was out there. Studying the natural the world and create in in advancing our understanding of psychology she was sort of a looking into the hidden life of nature in multiple ways. Yeah I see some sources that are asking the question. Okay was Beatrix Potter hotter a true naturalist true natural scientists over she just a you know an amateur. There was just very interested in these things and I don't know it's kind of a complicated question. Ask when you consider the limitations in the Victorian era for women but I I think undoubtedly she she I I would side with the fact that she was a natural scientist. <hes> I mean she authored or co authored one paper if I remember correctly so <hes> I'm I'm GonNa give her giver. Full credit was about a fungi mushroom in particular I forget it was one of those related to the Russillo mushrooms but I forget which species but basically she was. She was kind of up against the the Patriarchy Eh for the most part though well is it time to turn to penicillin itself. Yes let's turn to this key discovery here and our inventor are discover Alexander Fleming okay so who was Alexander Fleming okay so Fleming was born born in eighteen eighty one died in nineteen fifty five and he was a Scottish biologist physician microbiologist and pharmacologist. He was the son of a farmer and he observed and studied a great deal of death from Sepsis in World War One uh-huh he observed that while <hes> antiseptics worked well at the surface <hes> a deeper wounds sheltered bacteria from the effects of things like sulfur drugs right so if you have the kind of superficial wound you could clean it off pretty good Gordon and that might help protect you from <hes> from bacterial infection but if you have a deep wound and say like dirty stuff bits of soil and other you know just crud gets lodged deep in there you might not be able to clean the wound out very well right and that's exactly the kind of stuff that's going to get lodged in there especially with your war wounds where there is a stab or or deep cut or a bullet entering the body. We'll makes me think about <hes> the when we were reading about the idea of Stegosaurus US perhaps weapon I mean not consciously stegosaurus perhaps <hes> having an adaptation to weaponize infection against its enemies oh by dragging its <hes> Dagga misers spikes through the Dung right exactly yeah having dirty Bagga miser spikes aches and then when it wax the T. rex in the crotch with them that <hes> that gets infected later and eliminates a Predator from the area and <hes> the the the predators of the day would not have had access to antibiotics certainly not or even that beer from the we mentioned earlier so a full Fleming devoted himself to research and he <hes> prior to penicillin he discovered a license. I'm a naturally occurring enzyme in mucus and other parts of the body than inhibits bacteria so you know he was already you know in this area you know looking for for new <hes> new breakthroughs new discoveries but then his biggest breakthrough of all is this discovery of penicillin and it's truly one of the more amazing invention slash discovery moments moments from history because while he was exactly the right person to make discovery and then deserves all the credit he was given the key moment comes down really to pure luck and we simply don't know if anyone else would have made the discovery if he had not been there to observe it okay so what happened with this discovery so around nineteen twenty seven or so he had engaged himself in studying <hes> STAPHYLOCOCCI the or staff and he had stacks of Petri dishes dish specimens ends in his lab which I've seen described as being kind of untidy lab so you're imagining all these like Petri dishes full staff all over the place notes and so forth and so the key moment comes in September of Nineteen Twenty eight right right so we ha- has these staff Petri dishes out any leaves them for the weekend to go on holiday with his family any when he comes back he expects you just see how they've progressed see how they've grown but he finds that they haven't grown in fact they have died. Something has ravaged his specimens specimens yeah now. This is one of those stories where he gets very narrative is so you do have to wonder if some details of it or embellish how the story may have changed over time but this is the way the story has been passed down and and I think it seems to be largely largely basically true <hes> the way that I've seen the story often told us that he comes in. There's a blob of mold growing in one of the plates and all around the mold. There's this halo of nothingness. Where normally what you would see is that if you got a plate for culturing bacteria there would be these little dots in blobs on the on the plate but instead? There's this halo where there's no bacteria bacterial dead zone now of course we know staphylococcus is is a bacterium group linked linked to all kinds of human disease and misery staph infections right if this mold could kill staff that seems medically relevant so what happened here well he he. He realized that he was dealing with some sort of a fun guy so he luckily there was a microbiologist with lab. Just below Fleming on the floor below his lab a man by the name of C._J.. La Touche and in fact it's also been suspected that the mold and question that killed flemings the staff might have drifted up from Latouche as lab adding an extra element of weird chance to this whole situation okay so perhaps his samples were contaminated by stuff from the lab next door or down a floor. You're right that's not that's not a theory. That's presented in every source does pop up fairly frequently so specifically this mold was what would later be identified as a strain of penicillin no tottenham and it was obvious it's the it's secreted something that prevented staph bacteria from growing and so fleming followed up in studying the secretion this this mold juice says I've seen it called he found that it didn't only prevent the growth of staphylococcus it worked against common bacteria like streptococcus or meningococcus and and the back also against the bacterium that Causes Diptheria interestingly while Fleming did see applications for penicillin in curing disease and he mentioned them briefly briefly in the paper he published in nineteen twenty nine about this discovery about the antibacterial properties of concilium <hes> he primarily thought of this secretion of penicillin as a tool for bacteriologist logist to sort strains of bacteria basically into penicillin sensitive versus non penicillin sensitive species and that that could be useful in the lab yes so he sometimes criticised as is really not understanding completely what he had adhere not having the vision to see where it could go well. I don't think he completely understood but he did indicate that this could possibly have uses in medicine right <hes> so Fleming and his assistance Stewart craddock in Frederick Ridley tried for years eight years to turn this accidental discovery into a stable isolated compound that would be useful and this this was a problem because like so you've got the secretion from the mold molds making some juice it's kind of getting stuff wet with this this stuff that that <hes> that fights bacterial growth but they couldn't isolate the compound that was causing the effect and stabilize it and make it make it generally useful <hes> so to quote from Aminov Paper Aminov that I mentioned earlier quote. For twelve years after his initial observation Alexander Fleming was trying to get chemists interested in resolving persisting problems with the purification and stability of the active substance and supplied the penicillin acilia strain to anyone requesting it but he really he he could never cracked the nut ultimately and he didn't finally make this discovery of the process for <hes> for <hes> stabilizing and isolating the compound and by Nineteen Forty Aminov writes that <hes> Fleming finally abandoned his quest but fortunately it was right about that time that a capable team at Oxford University including the researchers Howard Florey and Ernst chain or Chine they <hes> picked up on this research and they they kicked off the research project that would eventually break through on this <hes> and they're all these interesting story. So of course this is while World War Two is going on right so research conditions are not ideal and <hes> they're they're all all these stories about how they turned their lab at Oxford into this giant incubation center or sort of factory for mold like they employed all these lab assistants who were these women who had been referred to in some sources as the penicillin girls half and they would work too like they would work to grow the penicillin and buckets and tubs and basically every container that they could <hes> and eventually they did they were able to isolate and stabilize allies this compound so to quote from an Article <hes> from the American Chemical Society in Nineteen Forty Flory and that would be Howard Florey carried out vital experiments showing that penicillin could protect mice against infection from deadly STREPTOCOCCI then on February twelfth nineteen forty one a forty three year old policeman Albert Alexander became the first recipient of the Oxford penicillin he'd scratched the side of his mouth while pruning roses and developed a life <unk> threatening infection with huge abscesses affecting his is facing lungs penicillin was injected and within days he made a remarkable recovery well but unfortunately despite this recovery which lasted for a few days they ran out of the drug and Alexander eventually got worse again and he died and I was reading that they were so desperate to cure him that after Alexander urinated while on his antibiotic course they would collect the urine and try to extract the penicillin he he excreted again so that it could be re administered to him <hes> and I should mention also that the process that the Oxford team relied on to extract and purify the penicillin and the mold juice was led by another important biochemist a guy named Norman Heatley ugly but this case of Albert Alexander shows an obvious early problem they had which was the problem of scale they simply lacked the ability to make penicillin at the scale it that would be needed to treat even one person let alone the whole world <hes> the strain of mold that they were using didn't make enough of it and this led to the search for other species of the same fungal genus penicillin which would maybe they thought produced higher concentrations of the penicillin filter eight and I was reading an interesting article by the University of Michigan physician and Medical Historian Howard Markel that tells a really interesting story. I'd never heard about this. <hes> so the story goes like this apparently one of the assistance at the Oxford lab showed up for work one day in nineteen forty one with a cantaloupe that she'd bought at the market because it was covered in a weird looking golden mold which is great because this would be the one case where somebody is picking over the fresh produce to like find the moldy one <hes> the mold on this cantaloupe turned out to be a strain of penicillin called Penicillin Chris O._G._S._M.. Which markle says naturally produced at least about two hundred times as much penicillin as the original strain that they've been studying and <hes> then later markel writes the the same strain was subjected to mutagenic processes in the lab so like bombarding it with x rays and stuff to produce a mutated strain that would make up to a thousand times as much penicillin as the old school fleming mold so by nineteen forty one penicillin is on its way to becoming a viable medicine all right on that note? We're GONNA take a quick break. When we come back? We're going to look at the impact of penicillin and we're GONNA look at it <hes> in and I think a fun way by considering really interesting arresting. What if everybody we love a good food documentary around here and now there's so many wonderful culinary podcasts to turn to as well in the latest is food three sixty st with Mark Murphy? He's a celebrity chef and restaurant tour. He's been cooking in some of the world's most esteemed kitchens for over thirty years and on this show he's joined by impressive roster of his close friends in the industry. It's food three sixty and he's he's GonNa look at the world of food bringing history science culture and more through the lens of the stuff we eat season one will be eight episodes topics include in no special order flavor at the art of Cookbook and recipe writing ice cream coffee menus in and outs of opening a restaurant pizza and breakfast so tune into food three sixty a brand new podcast that airs every Friday listen and subscribe at Apple podcasts on the iheartradio APP or wherever you listen to podcasts all right we're back so we often don't don't do a lot of what ifs on Invention don't I thought we to certain extent but I mean a lot of times. It's harder case to be made like what if this had not been invention united right bill bill or discovered because in most cases you can you can you can look at the data you can look at other individuals where like if the Wright brothers had not invented the airplane had not created that <hes> that first prototype that really showed what was possible <hes> like clearly there were there were other individuals in the world working on this someone would have cracked it. If Roentgen had not discovered x-rays in eighteen ninety whatever year it was somebody else would have discovered them pretty soon right but <hes> when he comes to penicillin <hes> potentially it's a little more complicated than that I ran across a cool article on the topic titled What He Fleming had not discovered penicillin and this was published in the Saudi Journal. <hes> of biological sciences is by Al Harbi at all the authors admit that that certainly Fleming had made the discovery someone else might have in the years to follow. Probably you know in the early nineteen forties they estimate so we could still well have have arrived saved antibacterial age however they also explore the possibility that we might have simply not made the discovery at all well and it's an interesting argument so I wanna I wanna read a quote from the paper here. Quote of course penicillin could have been discovered the day after Fleming missed the opportunity but in reality there was no parallel discovery that took place as a result anyone taking an interest in penicillin during the nineteen thirties did so in the knowledge of Fleming's work in particular the seems no no reason to believe that flory chain would have discovered penicillin since their work depended on Fleming's famous paper and their access to one of his penicillin producing cultures okay so that's referring to the thing I mentioned about how <hes> how so <hes> Fleming in his assistance were just like sharing the penicillin strain out with everybody like hey. Can you figure out what's going on with this. Can you isolate secretion the compound in the secretion yeah so think about it there was there was so far as these researchers could determine you know no other effort out there that would have in struck paydirt in the absence of Fleming's research. The Oxford Group wouldn't have been looking for it. Someone walks men. The father of modern antibiotics sometimes called who made several key discoveries discoveries later was also inspired by Fleming <hes> so it's it's one of these cases where like he seems to be the epicenter not not only him but just then the the the seemingly chance encounter in his lab that day that that <hes> we're suddenly this halo appears in the Petri dish and that gives birth to a to a whole class of other discoveries right because not all <hes> antibiotics are derived from penicillin the penicillin class of antibiotics. Antibiotics become sort of like one sort of grandfather class but then there are all these other classes that are discovered during this golden age of antibiotics that takes place over the next few decades yeah and there are various just additional medical breakthroughs that would not not have occurred without penicillin such as organ transplant but then there's also the question like what would what would have happened in the wider world because again penicillin comes online during the Second World War and so you can easily really ask well what would have happened if allied troops had not benefited from access to antibiotics at D Day. I've never thought about that. In fact I before looking at this episode I probably would not have known the answer to whether or not they had access to antibiotics well. Penicillin film production was actually swiftly scaled up just to make sure that allied soldiers had access to it at d day so there is a legitimate question to be asked might the allies not have won the Second World War without penicillin <hes>. I think there are a lot of factors to consider there. I don't think it's quite a Gotcha question but it's it's worth thinking about the authors argue that without flemming's discovery would have had to depend on the SOFA drugs an imperfect alternative negative to <hes> true antibiotics and these these were described in the nineteen thirties and Fleming worked with him prior to his discovery but without penicillin in play the authors argue that Sofa drugs might have become the standard and even push rush the discovery of true antibiotics well beyond the nineteen sixties and this is also true of the Axis powers had risen in victorious in World War Two because they're the access powers depended on sulfur drugs and their their key treatment <hes> point out that you know quote despite the fact that the Germans and their allies where at a considerable disadvantage the soft drugs did a relatively good job at reducing battle casualties so not to just completely <hes> you know cast aside the effectiveness of soft drugs but they were not as effective as true antibiotics. It's weird to think about the political implications of specific medical technologies yeah and then when you get down to the curious cases of individuals yeah it also gets interesting where he touched on presidents who died died <hes> that would have lived potentially if there had been penicillin around right and so they point out that <hes> that sofa drugs saved Churchill's life in nineteen forty three when he was suffering from pneumonia I as well as F._D._R.'s life a but there's also evidence by the way <hes> that actual penicillin may have saved Hitler's life following the Stauffenberg assassination attempt of July twentieth nineteen forty four this was the plot that tried to kill Hitler with a briefcase I bom right like where the some of the officers conspired against him and they put up briefcase bomb in the room with him and it did explode but he was protected by a heavy table that prevented it from killing him. He was obviously injured and I think he had like nerve damage after I'd so so the idea here is that perhaps his injuries were treated by by penicillin yeah that's at least an argument has been made that they had access to penicillin <hes>. I'm unclear on how they would have obtained it. You know through. Maybe there's a spy story there I I don't know but the the idea being well if he had if he didn access to penicillin then perhaps he would have died and that would have arguably ended the war in a different manner forcing us to re imagine an entirely different postwar world so again again. We're playing with with what ifs here and in also we my understanding is we don't know for sure that Hitler had access to penicillin following that assassination attempt but there is the overall scenario of the allies having penicillin and having this ramped up penicillin production leading into d day yeah that is really interesting. I never contemplated that before. <hes> now something that we do often have to think about and we should probably acknowledge at the end here before we move on. Maybe this'll be something to come back and do in the future with a recent invention episode is the idea of <hes> a possible end of the antibiotics edge. I mean this is a kind of scary thing to imagine like what if the antibiotics age is essentially a period in history that has a beginning winning in an end because as we you've you've probably heard about this many disease causing bacteria and other disease causing microbes are overtime evolving. <hes> antibiotic resistance are evolving to to to be powerful enough to survive are antimicrobial drugs and I think specifically one thing that's exacerbating this overuse of antibiotics and people not taking the entire course of antibiotics when they're giving them yeah because again to come back to the Doug Moi jubilee war scenario you know it is an ongoing battle and the the forces evolve to better deal with the threats on each side yeah and so we're we're we're seeing this occur. We're seeing the the overuse of antibiotics producing strains that are that are resistant and it's reversing some of the therapeutic miracles of the last fifty years and underscores the importance of disease prevention in addition to treatment and that means not not abandoning some of our other vital tools for human health like vaccination. Oh Yeah we should come back and revisit vaccination or maybe even various different vaccinations in the future yeah another thing to keep in mind that I don't think we've you mentioned earlier was that the nineteen forties through the nineteen seventies are considered like the Golden Age of Antibiotic Research Yeah and we haven't seen at least we haven't seen any new classes of antibiotics emerged since that time period right now there have have been new developments in antibiotics but I think the way I've read it is that they're generally modifications zone existing classes of antibiotics sorta like we we haven't we haven't found anything radically new since then basically we reached out into the natural a war between <hes> between fungi and the microbial legions and we we stole some of the tools we stole some of that premium fire we day we keep adapting that fire to our own purposes but we haven't we haven't found any new weapon happen from that world and and then they're ongoing war continues <hes> to change. I'd be interested <hes> do you out there you the listener. Do you work in medical research. Are you working on areas involved in antibiotic resistance the Future Future of anti-microbials please get in touch with us. I would like to hear about that. What what are you doing in your work? And what does the future look like to you on the inside absolutely we would we would love to hear from you <hes> again. We've only scratched the surface surface here though thanks to antibiotics hopefully that scratch will not get life threatening infection but yeah there's a lot more history here but but hopefully what we've done here today is of course highlight just a very very cool story from the history of inventions inventions and discoveries in human history and outlined the impact of of one of the greatest inventions or discoveries again how we want to classify it from the Twentieth Century Yeah totally in the meantime. If you WANNA check out other episodes of invention you can check out our homepage invention pod dot com and that'll have all the episodes right there. If you want to support the show and we would appreciate it. If you did support the show there are a few simple things you can do. Tell friends about it. You know tell I'll tell your family members about invention and then if you have the ability to do so rate in review as wherever you got this podcast huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Maya coal if you'd like to get in touch with us to let us know feedback on on this episode or any other suggested topic for the future just to say hello you can email us at contact at invention pod Dot com invention is production of iheartradio for more podcasts from IHEART radio the iheartradio APP apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your favorite shows so joe. Are you sold on the life changing technology of C. BY G. I am not sure yet. I'm still still I'm still mulling it over. What would it help if I made it clear? How extremely simple and quick these products are to install because we're talking in under thirty minutes? You can transform your home into a smart home. There's no need for invasive home renovation no need for.

penicillin Alexander Fleming Doug Moi tetracycline United States syphilis Robert Lamb Egypt Nubia typhus James Garfield Proto Antibiotic Technology William Henry Harrison Jubilee Eulex Mid Twentieth Century facebook Joe McCormack diarrhea
Invention Classic: Penicillin

Invention

52:36 min | 1 year ago

Invention Classic: Penicillin

"Support for invention comes from T. mobile for business five G. will revolutionize the way we work but it only matters. See Your Business if it works where you do T. Mobile has invested nearly thirty billion dollars in their advanced network to drive. True workforce mobility no matter the size of your business t mobile for businesses. Here to change the way your business moves businesses changing. Are you with us? More at T. MOBILE FOR BUSINESS DOT COM. I'm Hugh Atchison. I'm a chef for restaurant traveler. And now I'm the host of the passenger people. Ask me all the time. What's that list of places to go in this city in that city and this show is dedicated to that idea? Immersing yourself in that culture and finding out what's intriguing and what resound and what we think about the future of that place as a visitor as a passenger subscribe now on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you date your guests. Hey Welcome to invention. My name is Robert Lamb. And I'm Joe McCormick and we are bringing you a classic episode of Invention Today. This is an episode on penicillin that originally published July Fifteenth Two Thousand Nineteen. Yes a fungal accident. In the early twentieth century that opened the door for the Medical Wonders of the Antibiotic Age. So yeah this was a pretty fun one and an important one so we'll just dive right in. Welcome to invention a production of iheartradio. Hey Welcome to invention. My name is Robert Lamb. And I'm Joe McCormick and Robert I know you WanNa talk about. Dnd before we get to the real subject well. I don't know I was thinking about doing. It lasts but we can go ahead and talk about it up front. Yeah we'll in dungeons and dragons various Demon Lords And they rule over various portions of the of the fiend population in the game and there are two demon lords in particular that I was thinking about in regards to today's episode And that that would be boy and jubilo x. So zagged Moi is the the demon Lord of Fungi. The Queen of fungi the master of decay and then opposing her Ever at odds with their is jubilee the faceless Lord which is a god of loses and slimes and blobs all the losing nasty creatures of Dungeons and dragons and there. They oppose each other. There are constant war with each other and in some campaigns like their forces. And even there there you know in bodied forms do battle with one another and it. It actually ties in a bit with this subject. We're talking about today of penicillin. Okay so penicillin. The fungus that fights. I don't know. Would you call diseases slimes a well? I feel like jubilee. Being the demon Lord of uses in slimes kind of makes it the the Demon Lord of of microbiology as well and You know Mike Groves and And microbial illnesses so okay. We'll so today we're going to be talking about penicillin. I guess maybe one of the Great Real Weapons of Soaked Moi yes But this this came up. I think because we'd been talking about fungus on our other podcasts. On stuff to blow your mind where we just finished recording a five part series on psychedelics. Yeah yeah looking at Fungal psychedelics and ongoing research into how these substances could enhance our mental wellbeing and helping the treatment of psychological issues and one of our big take home was these guy could help save lives and improve the quality of human life but it would not be the first or only fungi to do so because we can certainly look to. Various interactions between human. Hell's the different fungal species. In their use in traditional medicine we can point to various products include products of fermentation for instance including alcohol. But there's an even better example of better living through fungi in that's penicillin right so today we're going to briefly explored the invention of penicillin which is often cited as the first true antibiotic technology. Of course antibiotics are medications that treat infections by killing injuring or slowing the growth of bacteria in the body. Antibiotics are a class of what you would generally call antimicrobial drugs. Medicines that kill microbes that present a threat to the body of course antibiotics generally fight bacterial infections whereas you could have others like Antifungal. 's THAT FIGHT. Fungal infections or antivirals that fight viral infections now. Antimicrobials and antibiotics are gigantic subject. Area that we're of course not going to be able to get into every nook and cranny of the subjects but we hope we could have An interesting introductory introductory discussion. Maybe come back to antibiotics sometime again in the future. Because it's a it's a broad invention that has lots of little invention tributaries throughout history but it is such a fascinating case to look at and I think should make for a great episode of invention here because for starters it's it's a twentieth century Inventions slash discovery off. Of course the line between innovation. Discovery is a little bit gray But we can. We can pinpoint the nineteen twenty eight and ultimately like rolled out by nineteen forty or so But so we can. We can look to it. We can look at the world before we can look at the world after with sort of clarity that we don't always have with certain late older or more ancient invention exactly because we always like to ask the question on the show what came before the invention what what changed when this invention came on the scene And what became before widespread? Modern antibiotics was stupendous amounts of death and misery from infectious disease. In blood poisoning. I I was wondering like is it even possible to get stats on what the world of infectious disease looked like before we had antibiotics around the mid twentieth century. Yeah I mean to a certain extent of the suffering is just incalculable Especially if you go back and sort of consider all of human history up to that point in the various factors that that influenced Infectious Disease and injury eventually the rise of germ theory but also things like the rise of cities and so forth but but luckily yes. Since it was such a a reason invention we have some pretty incredible stats on the matter. Suddenly thanks to this new Miracle Drug Diseases. It simply ravaged. The global population like syphilis could be cured. The shadow of lethal infection. No longer hung least as heavily over every scrape injury and war wound and with wounds. Where often talking about sepsis which is a term that was used by hippocrates back in the fourth century BC meaning blood rod or blood poisoning and he was referring more generally I think to decay but the term came to be applied to blood poisoning which arises when the body's response to infection causes causes injury to its own tissue and organs but just prior to the twentieth century infectious diseases accounted for high morbidity and mortality rates around the world even in the industrialized world according to w a Adedeji in the treasurer called antibiotics from two thousand sixteen. The average life expectancy at birth was forty seven years forty six and forty eight years for men and women respectively and this was due to the dangerous smallpox cholera diphtheria pneumonia typhoid fever plague tuberculosis typhus syphilis and a host of other ailments that could Affleck and endearingly antibiotic era They follow again arising in the middle of the twentieth century. The leading cause of death in the United States change from communicable diseases to noncommunicable diseases like Carter cardiovascular disease cancer and stroke and the average life expectancy at birth rose to seventy eight point eight years so the elderly were no longer a mere four percent of the population. But grow to become a whopping thirteen percent of the population. So we're talking about profound changes distant demographics based on this new this new invention. Yeah the changes huge. I mean we live in a world. Now where if you have access to high quality. Modern medicine and a lot of people don't mind but if you have access to high-quality modern science based medicine and you can get antibiotics and And get to a hospital or see a doctor. You very likely have a good chance to beat most of the Common Infectious Diseases. That that people get unless you have some kind of you know like another condition that exacerbates it or something. Before antibiotics. This was just not the people just died from diseases that you catch like diseases that are common for people to catch all the time. Yeah or you had certain diseases like syphilis. That were virtually uncurable. Yeah you know. And and some of the. The cures that were attempted were pretty horrendous. And had an generally did not work. You know talking about using mercury and so forth And you mentioned before contamination of wounds. I mean just a huge thing just like a you know you might You might cut yourself all gardening and you die from it. Yeah Heaven Forbid you undergo a say medieval Gallstone surgery or something like that. Yeah a by the way I think. Turkey loaf has you know is a good example to look at for some of these stats as well according to the CDC TB was a leading cause of death in the US in nineteen forty prior to the roll out of antibiotic therapy in one thousand nine hundred one hundred ninety four of every one hundred thousand. Us residents died from deep tb most residents of urban areas in nineteen hundred the three leading causes of death in the US were pneumonia tuberculosis and diarrhea and interrupt us which together with Diptheria caused one third of all deaths and of these deaths forty percent were among children aged less than five years old. Now to your point in not everybody has access to Antibiotics that Say people enjoy in Europe and the United States? Yeah TB remains a the leading cause of death from an infectious disease in many parts of the world? Particularly the developing world and some antibiotic treatments are in about assisted treatments are more complicated and more difficult than others. I mean I know the treatment for TB is not as say easy is the round of just orally administered antibiotics that you might get for a standard bacterial infection right but it suddenly was just a heralded rightfully so is Is a miracle invention when it came about. I saw an image of a of a sign on a garbage can or mailbox from the Mid Twentieth Century Advertising. That now you can get gonorrhea cured in in like four hours and thanks to the you know these new developments in antibiotics You know it's just a a it can be difficult to put ourselves in that mindset having grown up in the wake of antibiotics or at least most of us most people listening to this show. I was just thinking about how many like. Us presidents died of infections of various kinds l. Yeah that that seems like it would be very unusual thing to happen now but like in the eighteen. Hundreds James Garfield got shot but it wasn't the initial gunshot that killed him. He lived for like two weeks afterwards. he got an infection in the wound. Think because they were digging around with dirty hands to try to get the bullet out of him and he and they didn't have antibiotics of course when he got an infection so he died. I think another a US. Was IT William Henry Harrison who? I think they think Dow died from probably like drinking fecal contaminated water in the White House. Yeah so many. Different Injuries and infections were just far more likely to be lethal with You know without modern antibiotics to step in and And aid in the fight. Now there were some things that were kinda versions of antibiotics or antimicrobials from before the discovery of Penicillin in nineteen twenty eight. The best example from the the period just immediate immediately prior to penicillin would be the Sultana miser the sulfur drugs in these. Were the first antibacterial to be used. Systematically they were synthesized in nineteen thirty two in the German laboratories of Bayer a G. Now you might be thinking about the time line like wait a minute. Didn't we just say that penicillin was discovered in twenty eight but it took a long time after the discovery of penicillin antibacterial properties for it to be made as a useful medical drive like it was nineteen forty generally. That's the date you see for went. Penicillin actually became an actionable thing in medicine. So before that we had The the sulfur drugs and it had. They had a rocky start but they did prove very effective in preventing wound infections during the World War they were used on both sides in the in the form of Sulfur. Pills and also SOFA POWDERS. That would be sprinkled over a wound. So if you've ever watched the some sort of a period piece oh especially a war peace from the twentieth century and you see somebody sprinkling powder mover an injury. That is what that's supposed to be self drugs. They're not as effective is true. Antibiotics like penicillin in. There are a number of possible side effects that one that can take place and it also can't be used to treat syphilis and it also can't treat Sulfur resistant infections. Now of course. This is also a twentieth century invention so I was wondering. Did anybody come up with any version of antibiotics or Proto? Antibiotics before the twentieth century. We know the penicillin hadn't been discovered and isolated and made stable as a useful medicine. But were there any things like antibiotics are sort of precursors of antibiotics? Because then game of thrones? They have penicillin don't they? Or they have some sort of fantasy versus penicillin. I've never heard of that. Don't they have something that the the the old masters would mention having to do with Brad and mold or something didn't they. I don't remember that I just remember. People get cuts and then they get infected and die. Give him milk of the poppy. I mean they have milk in the poppy. Maybe our game of thrones Our our George Martin. Readers left to right and on that but I vaguely remember there being like allusion to something like some sort of mole based medicine that they were using lead could be wrong. Well I can't see that being something that's thrown in there as a little aside but like isn't widely recognized or use GONNA be And it's interesting how that kind of parallels some interesting pieces of evidence for Pro Antibiotic Technology in the real world even going back to ancient times. So I want to look at the work of the emory university bio archaeologists George. Jr Mela goes. Who is now deceased? I think he died in two thousand fourteen But he's interesting interesting scholar and he discovered something very curious back in nineteen eighty so the subject he was looking at was a set of human bones from ancient Nubia dating from between three fifty five c e and so the bones came from Nubia which is a region of Africa along the Nile River but south of Egypt in what would be modern day Sudan and what these bones showed was evidence that the people they belong to had been taking tetracycline Now tetracycline is not the same as penicillin but it is an antibiotic it can be used to treat all kinds of infections for minor problems like acne. I think in concert with some other drugs Two major diseases like plague or to leukemia or even syphilis and tetracycline works primarily by binding to the Riva's oems of bacterial cells. Ribes oems or sort of the cellular factories. They build proteins that are needed in order for organisms to live and grow and by binding to the Rybeck. Zome tetracycline makes it difficult for the bacterium to create new proteins? It was patented in the nineteen fifties became widely used in the second half of the Twentieth Century So what was it doing in the bones of Nubian people who live like seventeen hundred years ago? Well Arm Lago sin colleagues followed archaeological clues to identify the source of the tetracycline which was beer Of course beer is another one of Ultimately it falls under zagged noise domain. Oh yeah though. This is different. Because recycling is not made from fungus. It is actually. An antibacterial is a byproduct of some bacteria. Oh okay so. It's a bacterial byproduct but essentially so technically it's duplex okay point to jubilee this jubilee versus Jubilee Right. Oh Yeah I mean that's going to happen with your Demon Lawrence intriguing warfare yeah So beer is made. From fermented grain of course and the fermented grain in this ancient Nubian beer apparently contained the bacteria streptomyces which creates tetracycline as a byproduct but a question of course were these traces of tetracycline in Nubian mummy bones. A sign of like a bad batch of beer the got contaminated by accident or were these people deliberately culturing their beer with antibiotic producing bacteria and so to look at a study from the American Journal of Physical Anthropology from twenty. Ten of which are Malaga's was one of the authors of the author is examined Tetracyclene in skeletal remains from throughout this period and the evidence indicates that the ancient Nubians were consuming these antibiotics on a regular basis and the author suggest that these ancient people were intentionally producing this medicine and this links up with some evidence from other ancient peoples nearby such as the Egyptians that sometimes apparently used beer as a treatment for conditions like gum disease and other types of infections and the authors even found evidence of a four year old child whose skull contained lots of tetracycline from this beer suggesting that the child had been fed high doses of of this like antibiotic beer perhaps in an attempt to cure an illness. Maybe the illness that killed him and so the levels of tetracycline residue found in the bones. These mummies is only explicable if they were repeatedly consuming this antibiotic in their diet. And they're actually other. Archaeological remains that show evidence of antibiotic use in the ancient world for example samples taken from the Famara of skeletons from the Wastes in Egypt From people who live sometime in the late Roman period also showed evidence of the same thing of tetracycline and the Diet and this consumption of tetracyclene is consistent with other evidence showing a relatively low rate of infectious disease in Sudanese Nubia during that time period And a lack of bone infections apparent in these remains from the this oasis in Egypt so it really does look like people in ancient Africa discovered a somewhat effective form of antibiotics centuries before the discovery of penicillin and the isolation and mass production of focused anti microbial medicines. Now to be clear. I think like a beer that had tetracycline content from from being cultured bacteria. Like this probably would not be as potent and focused ineffective as like the isolated compounds in the drugs you take orally or through injection would be today right but it would have some effect and it appeared that it probably was somewhat effective in fighting infectious disease. Right and of course. They wouldn't know exactly what they had here but they knew they had some sort of beer that seemed to Some sort of of holy liquid that that that had some sort of curative property to it exactly fascinating discovery from the ancient world Another interesting fact. Tetracyclene is relatively unique in that it leaves clear signatures in the bones that can be discovered long after the person has died so other antibiotics. Don't leave these clear markers like this that. Make it easy for archaeologists to detect. So you have to wonder like are were there other cases of ancient peoples in various places and times using some kind of antibiotics or bacterial or Fungal Cultures To treat diseases like these ancient Nubian people were But that we don't have evidence of because it doesn't show up in the bones like tetracycline. Does it could've just been lost. A history I was reading an interesting paper from frontiers. Microbiology in two thousand and ten by a reuss domino called a brief history of the antibiotic Era Lessons. Learned and challenges for the future and Aminov points out this unique quality of tetracycline and notes. Just what I was. Basically just saying how easy it would be for evidence of other uses of antibiotics in the ancient world to be lost to us though he he also mentioned that. There are other anecdotes from history about cultural traditions. That show Proto antibiotic technologies in these other. Examples include red soils found in Jordan. That are used for treating skin infections. It's been discovered that these soils contain some antibiotic producing organisms. I'd guess they're probably also some major risks in applying soil to wounds and then also plants used in traditional Chinese medicine that actually do have some antimicrobial properties. Yeah because one thing we have to remember is like the modern Anti effort is ultimately based in going out into the natural world in finding these weapons that already exist. Yeah and then you re using them And adapting them of for Human Madison. And you know this is essentially what is going on in traditional medicines as well and it also means that there are weapons out there that either have not been discovered at all especially and particularly vibrant ecosystem. Some of which of course are threatened. All the more reason to for us to not decimate Say The rain forests or the deep ocean right but then they're also things that may have been discovered to some degree in the past but have been forgotten will. Yeah that that does seem possible because despite all all this evidence of ancient sort of Proto antibiotic technologies the worldwide rates of death from infectious disease in the periods for which we have data right before the invention of modern antibiotics shows that humans generally did not have effective antimicrobials in that period. So maybe some of this knowledge was lost over time. All right well on that note. We're GONNA take our first break when we come back we're going to return to The mold research of the nineteenth century and ultimately to our key inventor here Alexander Fleming. Here's the thing saving money with. Geico is almost better than playing pickup basketball. Because there's always that guy who joins your game. He never passes the rock. He constantly bricks threes. And who completely hack you? And then put his hands up and say no foul no foul with GEICO. It's easy to switch and save on car insurance. No need to fake. An ANKLE SPRAIN. Because you're absolutely exhausted. So switch and save with GYCO. It's almost better than sports. Hey guys it's bobby bones host Bobby Jones show and I'm pretty much always sleepy because I wake up at three o'clock in the morning a couple hours later. I get all my friends together. We get into a room and we do a radio show our allies we tell our stories we try to find as much good in the world possibly can and we looked through the news of the day that you'll care about also your favorite country. Artists are always stopping by to hang out and share their lives and music to wake up with a bunch of my friends. I Ninety eight point. Seven W M Z Q in Washington DC or wherever the rotates you on the iheartradio APP. All right we're back now. We'll get to Alexander Fleming in a minute With the discovery of penicillin but Alexander Fleming was not the first person to notice that there might be some anti microbial. Properties of certain fungi. That's right there was there was work going on in this area of prior to Fleming Fleming was was picking up On some of it and and really just overall our understanding of fungi in general was advancing as we mentioned in our psychedelics episodes. You know there was a time where we did not recognize fun guy as being separate from the realm of plants right Before we realize that it was a kingdom unto itself in all ultimately kingdom. That has a little more in common with the the animal kingdom than it does with the plant kingdom and a lot of talented folks working in this area but one of them might come us as opposed to a lot of people in this because her name was Beatrix Potter the Bunny Rabbit. A bunny rabbits yes. Okay off the bunny rabbit fame. I was kind of a curious coincidence because I was reading about all this and then just randomly on the stuff to blow your mind discussion module. Which is the FACEBOOK Group for people? Listen to the show to discuss episodes. Someone brought up trix Potter in regards to something to do with squirrels. Because there's a lot of squirrel squirrel content in the discussion module and they brought a beatrix potter and Beatrix Potter actually ties in to this episode. A little bit because in addition to being the author and illustrator of the the tale of Peter Rabbit and associated British animal tales. She was also a naturalist with a great deal of interest in astronomy and most importantly of all my college ready so she produced a lot of just beautiful scientific watercolor illustrations. Various fungi in her neck of the British would part of her studies. And if you studied a lot of a local mold as well and did illustrations of them. She's she's a legitimately a very interesting character. That was you know. Unfortunately she lives in a time in which the sexism of the day prevented her from. I think reaching the heights of in the natural sciences that she would have been afforded later on But in a lot of her work is also just being. I think rediscovered in appreciated for the first time You know in recent decades but the yeah the next time someone busts out some the trix Potter A. Remember this is not just an individual who wrote some fanciful tales and illustrated them. She was also just issues out there. Studying the natural world and create a in in advancing our understanding of the my college. She was sort of looking into the hidden life of nature in multiple ways. Yeah you know I see some sources that are asking the question. Okay was Beatrix Potter. Sheer true naturalist a true natural scientists over she just a an amateur. That was just very interested in these things. And I don't know it's kind of complicated question to ask when you consider the limitations In the Victorian era for women but I think undoubtedly she she D- I would side with the fact that she was a natural scientist I mean she authored or co authored one paper if I remember correctly so I'm I'm GonNa give her giver full credit. Was it about a guy it was a it was a mushroom in particular I forget it was one of those related to the Russillo mushrooms but I forget which species but Basically she was she was kind of up against the Patriarchy for the most part though. Yeah well is it. Time to turn to penicillin itself. Yes let's turn to this the key discovery here and our inventor are discover Alexander Fleming. Okay so who was Alexander Fleming? Okay so Fleming was born in eighteen. Eighty one died in nineteen fifty five and he was a Scottish biologist. Physician microbiologist and pharmacologist. He was the son of a farmer and he observed and studied a great deal of death from Sepsis in World War One. He observed that while antiseptics worked well at the surface deeper wounds sheltered bacteria from the effects of things like sulfur. Drugs right so if you have the kind of superficial wound you could clean it off pretty good and that might help protect you from From bacterial infection. But if you have a deep wound and say like dirty stuff it's of soil and other crud gets lodged deep in there. You might not be able to clean the wound out very well right. And it's exactly the kind of stuff that's going to get lodged in there especially with your war wounds where there is a stab or or or deep cutoff or a bullet entering the body. We'll makes me think about The when we were reading about the idea of stegosaurus perhaps weaponized. I mean not consciously stegosaurus perhaps Having an adaptation to weaponize infection against its enemies oh by dragging its dagga demise or spikes through the Dung right exactly yeah having dirty. Bagga miser spikes and then when it wax the T. rex in the crotch with them that That gets infected later and eliminates a Predator from the area and The the the predators of the day would not have had access antibiotics certainly not or even that beer from and we mentioned earlier so Fleming was devoted himself to research and he Prior to penicillin he discovered license. Ximen naturally occurring enzyme mucus and other parts of the body than inhibits bacteria. So you know. He was already in this area. You know looking for for new New Breakthroughs new discoveries but then his biggest breakthrough of all is this discovery of penicillin. And it's truly one of the more amazing invention slash discovery moments from history because while he was exactly the right person to make the discovery and then deserves all the credit he was given the key. Moment comes down really to pure luck and we simply don't know if anyone else would have made the discovery if he had not been there to observe it. Okay so what happened with this discovery so around? Nineteen twenty seven or so. He had engaged himself in studying STAPHYLOCOCCI or staff and he had stacks of Petri dishes dish specimens in his lab which I've seen described as being kind of an untidy lab a- petri dishes full staff all over the place notes and so forth and so the key moment comes in September of Nineteen. Twenty eight right right so he has these staff petri dishes out and then he leaves them for the weekend to go on holiday with his family. Any when he comes back he expects to just see how they've progressed. See how they've grown but he finds that they haven't grown in fact they have died. Something has ravaged his specimens. Yeah now it's this is one of those stories where he gets very narrative is so you do have to wonder if some details of it or embellish to how how the story may have changed over time but is the way the story has been passed down and I think it seems to be largely basically true The way that I've seen the story often told us that he comes in. There's a blob of mold growing in one of the plates and all around the mold. There's this halo of nothingness. Swear you know normally what you would see is that if you've got a plate for culturing bacteria they would be these little dots and blobs on the on the plate but instead there's this halo where there's no bacteria bacterial dead zone now. Of course we know. Staphylococcus is a bacterium group linked to all kinds of human disease and misery. Staph infections right. If this mold could kill staff that seems medically relevant. So what happened here? Well He? He realized that he was dealing with some sort of a fungi. Luckily there was a my college est with a lab just below Fleming on the floor below his lab a man by the name of cj La Touche and in fact it's also been suspected that the mold and question that killed Fleming's the staff might have drifted up from a low shays lab adding extra element of weird chance to this whole situation. Okay so perhaps. His samples were contaminated by stuff from the lab next door or down a floor right. That's one that's not. That's not a theory that's presented in every source but it does pop up fairly frequently so specifically this mold was what would later be identified. As a strain of penicillin no tottenham and. It was obvious that it's secreted something that prevented staph bacteria from growing and so fleming followed up in studying the secretion. This this mold juice says I've seen it called he. He found that it didn't only prevent the growth of staphylococcus. It WORKED AGAINST COMMON. Bacteria like streptococcus or meningococcus and and the back and also against the bacterium that Causes Diptheria. Interestingly while Fleming did see applications for penicillin curing disease and he mentioned them briefly in the paper he published in nineteen twenty nine about this discovery about The antibacterial properties of concilium He primarily thought of this secretion of penicillin as a tool for bacteriologist to sort strains of bacteria basically into penicillin sensitive versus non penicillin sensitive species and that could be useful in the lab. Yes so he. Sometimes criticised is really not understanding completely what he had here not having the vision to see where could go well. I don't think he completely understood. He did indicate that this could possibly have uses in medicine right Fleming and his assistance Stewart. Craddock in Frederick Row Ridley tried for years to turn this accidental discovery into a stable isolated compound that would be useful and this. This was a problem because like so. You've got the secretion from the mold molds making some juice it's Kinda getting stuff wet with this stuff that that That fights bacterial growth. But they couldn't isolate the compound that was causing the effect and stabilize it and make it make it generally useful So to quote from Aminov Paper Aminov that I mentioned earlier quote for twelve years after his initial observation Alexander Fleming was trying to get chemists interested in resolving persisting problems with the purification and stability of the active substance and supplied the penicillin strain to anyone requesting it. But he really he he. He could never crack the nut ultimately and he didn't finally make this discovery of the process for For stabilizing and isolating the compound and by nineteen forty off rights that Fleming finally abandoned quest but fortunately it was right about that time that a capable team at Oxford University including the researchers Howard Florey and Ernst chain or Chine they Picked up on this research. And they they kicked off the research project. That would eventually break through on this And they're all these interesting story so of course this is wild World War Two is going on right so research conditions are not ideal and then there are all these stories about how they turned their lab at Oxford into this giant incubation center or sort of factory for mold like they employed all these lab assistants were these women who had been referred to in some sources as the penicillin girls and they would work too like they would work to grow the penicillin and buckets and tubs and basically every container that they could and Eventually they did they were able to isolate and stabilize this compound so to quote from an article From the American Chemical Society in Nineteen forty. Flory that'd be Howard. Florey carried out. Vital experiments showing penicillin could protect mice against infection from deadly STREPTOCOCCI then on February Twelfth Nineteen Forty One. A forty three year old policeman. Albert Alexander became the first recipient of the Oxford Penicillin. He'd scratched the side of his mouth while pruning roses and a developed a life threatening infection with huge abscesses affecting his is facing lungs. Penicillin was injected and within days. He made a remarkable recovery. But unfortunately despite this recovery which lasted for a few days they ran out of the drug and Alexander eventually got worse again and he died and I was reading that they were so desperate to cure him. That after Alexander urinated while on his antibiotic course they would collect the urine and tried to extract the penicillin. He excreted again so that it could be re administered to him And I should mention also that the the process that the Oxford team relied on to extract and purify the penicillin and the mold juice was led by another Important biochemist a guy named number nine Heatley but this case of Albert Alexander shows and obvious early problem. They had which was the problem of scale. They simply lacked the ability to make penicillin at the scale it. That would be needed to treat. Even one person let alone the whole world The strain of mold that they were using didn't make enough of it and this led to the search for other species of the same fungal genus penicillin. Which would maybe they thought produced higher concentrations of the penicillin filter rate and. I was reading an interesting article by the University of Michigan Physician and medical historian Howard Markel. That tells a really interesting story. I'd never heard about this So the story goes like this. Apparently one of the assistance at the Oxford lab showed up for work one day in nineteen forty one with a cantaloupe that she'd bought at the market because it was covered in a weird looking golden mold which is great. Because this would be the one case where somebody is picking over the fresh produce to like find the moldy one The mold on this cantaloupe turned out to be a strain of concilium called Penicillin Chris. Gm which Markle says naturally produced at least about two hundred times as much penicillin as the original strain that they've been studying and then later markel writes that the same strain was subjected to mutagenic processes in the lab so bombarding with X. Rays and stuff to produce a mutated strain. That would make two thousand times as much penicillin as the old school fleming. Mold so by Nineteen Forty. One Penicillin is on its way to becoming a viable medicine. All right on that note. We're GONNA take a quick break and when we come back we're going to look at the impact of penicillin and we're GONNA look at it in a fun way by Considering a really interesting what if the only way is through a new podcast in partnership with iheartradio underarm. Join us as we hear from the world's greatest athletes coaches and trainers. They discuss how they utilize training competition and recovery improve their performance and push through hall of fame. Women's basketball coach Muffin. Mcgraw has established a culture of winning through our historic thirty five season career Notre Dame but this season. Coaching team are trying. Everything is there flow against losing record? Here's coach McGraw. I've never been in this situation before of having lost five. Starters and I was just thinking the other day you know how when you're going through and the stress of being number one being the team to beat being every game knowing you're supposed to win. That really weighs heavy on your shoulders than I think I said at one point. Wouldn't it be great to be the underdog again and my husband said be careful what you wish for and here we are? Listen to the only way through available now on the iheartradio APP wherever you get your podcast all right. We're back so we often don't don't do a lot of what if on invention doubt. I thought we. We can't do certain extent but I mean a lot of times. It's harder case to be made like what if this had not been invention or discovered because in most cases you can you. Can you can look at the data you can look at other individuals where like if the Wright brothers had not invented the airplane not created that That FIRST PROTOTYPE. That release showed what was possible like clearly there were. There were other individuals in the world. Working on this someone would have cracked it. If if front getting had not discovered x rays in eighteen ninety one whatever year it was somebody else would have discovered them pretty soon right but when it comes to penicillin Potentially gets a little more complicated than that. I ran across a cool article on the topic. Titled What He Fleming had not discovered penicillin and this was published in the Saudi Journal of Biological Sciences by al-Harbi at all the authors. Admit that that certainly. Fleming had made the discovery someone else might have in the years to follow probably in the early nineteen forties. They they estimate so we could still well have have arrived in the antibacterial age however they also explore the possibility that we might have simply not made the discovery at all. Well it's an interesting argument so I WANNA. I WanNa read a quote from the paper here. Quote of course penicillin could have been discovered the day after Fleming missed the opportunity but in reality there was no parallel discovery. That took place as a result. Anyone taking an interest in penicillin during the nineteen thirties did so in the knowledge of Fleming's work in particular. The seems no reason to believe that. Flory and chain would have discovered penicillin since their work depended on Fleming's famous paper and their access to one of his penicillin producing cultures. Okay so that's referring to the thing I mentioned about how Fleming in his assistance. Were just like sharing the penicillin. Strain out with everybody like. Hey can you figure out what's going on with this? Can you isolate secretion or the compound in the station? Yeah so think about that. There was there was so far as these. Researchers can determine no other effort out there that would have struck Peter. In the absence of Fleming's research the Oxford Group would have been looking for it Selman Walkman. The father of modern antibiotics sometimes called as we made several key. Discoveries later was also inspired by Fleming So it's yeah it's one of these cases where like. He seems to be the epicenter. Not only him. But just the the the the these seemingly chance encounter in his lab that day That that We're suddenly this halo appears in the Petri dish and that gives birth to a to a whole class of other discoveries right because not all Antibiotics are derived from penicillin penicillin. Class of antibiotics become sort of like one sort of grandfather class but then there are all these other classes that are discovered during this golden age of Antibiotics. The takes place over the next few decades. Yeah and there are various. Just additional medical breakthroughs. That would not have occurred without penicillin such as organ transplant. But then there's also the question like what would what would have happened in the wider world because again penicillin comes online during the second world. War and So you can easily ask what would have happened if allied troops had not benefited from access to antibiotics at D Day. I've never thought about that. In fact I before looking at this episode I probably would not have known the answer to whether or not. They had access antibiotics well. Penicillin production was actually swiftly. Scaled up Just to make sure that allied soldiers had access to at D Day. Well so there's a legitimate question to be asked might. The allies not have won the Second World War without penicillin. I think there are a lot of factors to consider there. I don't think there is quite a Gotcha question. But it's it's worth thinking about the authors argue that without flemming's discovery would have had to depend on the SOFA drugs. You know an imperfect native to to antibiotics in these You know these were described in the nineteen thirties and Fleming worked with him prior to his discovery but without penicillin in play the authors argue that sulfur drugs might have become the standard and even push the discovery of true antibiotics well beyond the nineteen sixties and this is also true of the Axis powers had risen in victorious in World War because they're the access powers depended on sulfur drugs and their their key treatment. They do point out. The you know quote. Despite the fact that the Germans and their allies where considerable the sulfur drugs did a relatively good job at reducing battle casualties so not to just completely You know cast aside the effectiveness of soft drugs but still. They're not as effective as true. Antibiotics it's weird to think about the political implications of specific medical technologies. Yeah and then when you get down to the curious cases of individuals it also gets interesting. Where he touched on presidents who died that would have lived potentially if there had been penicillin around right and so they point out that That Sotho drugs saved Churchill's life in nineteen forty three when he was suffering from pneumonia. I as well as FDR's life but there's also evidence by the way that actual penicillin may have saved Hitler's life following the Stauffenberg assassination attempt of July twentieth nineteen forty four. This was the plot that tried to kill Hitler with a briefcase bomb right like where the some of the officers conspired against him and they put a briefcase bomb in the room with him and it did explode but he was protected by like a heavy table that prevented from killing him. He was obviously injured. I think he had like nerve damage after I'd so the idea here is that perhaps his injuries were treated by by penicillin. Yeah that's at least. An argument has been made that they had access to penicillin I'm unclear on how they would have obtained it. You know maybe there's a spy story there. I don't know but the idea being well if he had it had didn't have access to Penicillin. Then perhaps he would have died and that would have arguably ended the war. You know in a different manner forcing us to re imagine an entirely different postwar world so again playing with with what if series and in also we minor standings. We don't know for sure that Hitler had accessed penicillin following that assassination attempt but there is the overall scenario of the allies having penicillin and having this ramped up penicillin production leading into D day. Yeah that is really interesting. I never contemplated that before Now something that I we do often have to think about. We should probably acknowledged at the end here before we move on. Maybe this'll be something to come back and do in the future with a recent invention episode is the idea of a possible end of the antibiotics age. I mean this is a kind of a scary thing to imagine like what if the antibiotics age is essentially a period in history. That has a beginning an end. Because as we. You've you've probably heard about this. Many disease causing bacteria and other disease causing microbes are over time evolving Antibiotic Resistance are evolving to powerful enough to survive are antimicrobial drugs and I think specifically one thing that's exacerbating this is overuse of antibiotics and people not taking the entire course of antibiotics when they're giving them. Yeah because Again to come back to the Zagged Moi Jubilee War a scenario you know it is an ongoing battle and the the forces evolve to better deal with the threats on each side. Yeah and so You know we're we're we're we're seeing this occur we're seeing the overuse of antibiotics producing strains that are that are resistant. And it's reversing some of the therapeutic miracles of the last fifty years and underscores the importance of disease prevention in addition to treatment and that means not not abandoning some of our other vital tools for human health like vaccination. Oh Yeah we should come back and revisit vaccination yes or maybe even various different vaccinations in the future. Yeah another thing to keep in mind that I don't think we've mentioned earlier. That the nineteen forties through the nineteen seventies are are considered the golden age of Antibiotic Research. Yeah and we haven't seen we haven't seen any new classes of antibiotics emerged. Since that time period right now there have been new developments in antibiotics. But I think the way I've read it is that they're generally modifications on existing classes of antibiotics. Sorta like we. We haven't we haven't found anything radically new since then basically you. We reached out into the natural war between Between Fungi and microbial legions and we stole some of the tools we stole some of that prometheus fire We keep adapting that fire to our own purposes. But we haven't we haven't found any new weapon from that world and And then their ongoing war continues to change. I'd be interested Do you out there you the listener dee work in medical research or are you working on areas involved in antibiotic resistance the future of anti-microbials? I please get in touch with us. I would like to hear about that. What what are you doing in your work? And what does the future look like to you on the inside absolutely we would. We would love to hear from you again. We've only scratched the surface here though. Thanks to antibiotics. Hopefully that scratch will not life threatening infection but yeah there's a lot more history here but but hopefully what we've done here. Today is of course highlight just a very very cool story from the history of inventions and discoveries in human history and outlined the impact of of one of the greatest inventions or discoveries. Again however you want to classify it from the twentieth century. Yeah totally in the meantime. If you want to check out other episodes of invention you can check out our homepage. Invention POD DOT COM and. That'll have all the episode right there if you want to support the show and we would appreciate it. If did sports show. There are few simple things you can do. Tell friends about it. You know. Tell Tell Your family members about invention and then if you have the ability to do so rate in reviews wherever you got this podcast huge. Thanks as always to our excellent Audio Maya Coal. If you'd like to get in touch with us to let us know feedback on this episode or any other suggested topic for the future just to say hello you can email us at contact at invention pod dot com. Invention is production of iheartradio for more podcasts. From IHEART radio is iheartradio. App Apple podcast or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Hugh Jackson. I'm a chef restaurant a traveler and now I'm the host of the passenger people. Ask me all the time. What's that list of places to go in this city in that city and this show is dedicated to that idea? Immersing yourself in the culture and finding out what's intriguing what resound and what we think about the future of that place as a visitor as a passenger subscribe. Now on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you date your podcast I'm Richard Blaze and I'm a chef restaurants who are who has judged or competed on nearly every cooking show and now found a way to judge on a podcast on my new podcast. Food Court with Richard Blaze. Amazing guests bring their food arguments to my court and I settled them once and for all you think ranch is better than blue cheese. Prove it you hate pineapple on pizza convince me the first season of good court with Richard Blazes up and you can subscribe on the iheartradio APP apple podcasts. Or wherever you get your podcast.

penicillin Alexander Fleming Infectious Disease Nineteen Forty Penicillin pneumonia Oxford Penicillin United States Beatrix Potter apple syphilis Mike Groves zagged Moi Oxford T. Mobile Robert Lamb tetracycline Hugh Atchison
The episode where DMCA erases Dota history forever

We Say Things - an esports and Dota podcast with SUNSfan & syndereN

1:17:19 hr | 5 months ago

The episode where DMCA erases Dota history forever

"We. A The thankful. Hello friends. Welcome to we say things episodes seventy six nine suns fan joining me as always is thunderball. Himself greetings my friend. L. Sound like thunder born I just didn't even try. Terrible. Did Green but. Different from usual episodes from my side. I'm not at home in Germany. So and I can't make my Webcam work for some reason on this PC, it's not working and I'm on a different microphones audio. But it's still me. So. -posedly. So you we don't know for sure actually. True couldn't imposter. We'll get to esl in just a moment senator. You can give us all the juicy details of all the talent better there, and how much you do they have donors is that's what it is in Germany that what it's called the Schwimmer's. Equivalent. Sure you want to pronounce it that way donor. Also, a donor. Maybe one day. Let's start out with the patron shoutouts this week's in. This double episode although we've kind of condensed it a bit because of our guests last week. Thank you to our in bruised here we have chuck Chucker and and. And and And nominee in anonymity is an enemy in an anomaly. The rest are easy. FAB Daddy the Mega Pope Suns, Fan. simps- dummy, thick horses, Papiya card actually don't even know what that means I'm not gonNA lie wax on wax off Danielson Ti in New Zealand xantia Vier Suns Fan Pudge Omega Lull. Nate. Thick eaus zero one ham scrotum brother to the Great Oh Gee Jessica lamps crowds. Bacon no not that. Bacon. The. Other Bacon. A video from national geographic where guerrillas testicle is placed Chet Lean. Nico Babies. R So fucked up. I love it Lik Shark TM and freshly season goad balls. Thank you. Christ that might be the best. Thank. You also to change will happen Comrade Dimitri values off the Ben Jackson and Ben Broomhead Alliance, Novi, panda DOPP Merak Zagorec. Fine underscore we give permission for the Ben Alliance to raise podcast awareness, invading, and occupying neighboring nations and villages. Okay. Pitch. Black. Wouldn't aftertaste done. Talk dyslexic lawyer anonymous and Rony. Thank you, Mike. I Love I'm not GonNa lie I like this kind of Meta game of the year where they Try To make us laugh I'm sure is the main. The main goal and that testicle one guerrillas testing that is. That's number one. For. Me Absolutely before we get started I just want to. Mention. Why did they put this in the section actually makes no sense but I'm GonNa talk about anyway I did some valor casting earlier the last two days for the strike tournaments. The first time actually cast with my old friends, Zeno, which I think you've actually met syndrome like super old friend. WHO's the cast back and haunt as well? This is literally the first time we've ever. F- Games. Despite having extensive experience as you know, being professionals all and it was add it was actually crazy. I had to do camera as well as production and casting. And we did more of a dove style where I'm doing more play by play he's doing more analysts work towards the end of the round, but it was a lot of fun. I. Thought I did okay. A lot to improve on I'm not going anywhere still going to be doing Doda stuff if I'm invited but. Yeah it's actually crazy when I thought about it. I started playing F- ps. Games in is going to show how fucking old I am nineteen ninety eight quake to is when I started playing a lot of games. Yes, then counterstrike. So it's a funny story that we're not GONNA get into. Nineteen Ninety eight fifty six K everybody had, but we actually started I started my gaming career if you WANNA call it that with a cable modem which was unheard of in one, thousand, nine hundred, and I was very lucky actually. be at twenty, two years later. I cast an F. PS game isn't that insane? That's that is really weird APP suppressing any chemistry. Yeah me. Yeah I agree okay. So. Did the developed it Ryan to reach out to you or hundred this worth if you wanted to know. How they got in touch with you, right. So nerd street gamers was one of the. Organizers for this leg of the open qualifiers of the tournament Kinda just giving community Casters A. Volunteer works not I got paid or anything. It's you sign up, and if once they look at your body of work or whatever you WANNA call, they give you the okay and give you the rule set and they you know Admin the game for you give you the information you need to be able to cast properly. but obviously have a relationship with nursery gamers from when we did MIDAS mode and jungle jam and all that good stuff. Yeah, it was fun. I had a lot of fun cocoa. And then onto the last section of the Intro Suns Fan recommends. Thirty two GIGABYTES OF RAM everybody okay. I have been running on sixteen gigs for so long and everybody has you don't need more than that. Sixteen itself is kill windows uses so much of it. You don't realize how little you actually need fuck you. Are Making me delay this purchase for so long thirty, two gigs. Ram has changed my entire life. It is so much. I can actually open a browser without going over memory limit for fuxing I switched from chrome to fire Fox. Is Everybody's talking about how terrible fire? Fox is just as bad as chrome apparently I'm using half my ram right now. And it's beautiful. I have everything open. When he stream, you have a flex server. If all the shit running the background, you need thirty two gigs of Ram. Hotline. Recommend. Sixteen gigs around though I'm using thirteen right now I have for what three browser instances open because I have four monitors. What I have four monitors that might add to it as well as graphics more than anything have odds open usually have a game streaming as well. I have a flex server running in the background a lot of shit going on back here syndrome. Okay. Need thirty, two gigs. I'll take your word for. Thank you. I never had Mitch I don't know how many I have actually on my home computer I might have snacks. And that is the problem. Funny if I had sixteen zero problems with night browsers and being able to stream foliage degrading and advertising running cinder that'll be funny. But I can't confirm that right now. So you the benefit of the doubt that's all this stuff I'm running it's very resource intensive. Resource Hog if nothing else. So I needed I'm not saying you need it but I still recommend because it's just a couple of sticks Aram just stuck in their took two minutes no problem. I didn't have to take off my heat sink for God's sake it was great any who let's get star with the episode Germany was out center the talent tell me about it I didn't even see the post. Yeah, we got announced last night. I've been in Germany for two days we came in early. If there were in corona complications. There was a way of dealing with it but everything's been released moods. So it's me shiver and Kyle. A the three of us are here in Montgomery paneling every game for the rest of the playoffs starting today. And it's two three days in a row, and then it's one best of three and then one best five the final day. So the schedule is pretty. Simple. The days are not that long compared to what we've had for other events where it could be like four best threes or whatever this very. More relaxed. So speak. So. Looking forward to it should be fun happy that nothing really went wrong for any of us. 'cause obviously Germany has been trends Has. been. Changed to an orange zone used the same coloring in the US between your everything's Brown here. Yeah. Okay. That's not surprising when it's you talking about it is probably orange. Ron More. Shots rent anything. That's it. Getting, started today with the first set of games in six hours I think. Glow that's that's what we're. GonNa. Do I wish you luck cinder and you're going to need it he can't get a Goddamn Webcam to work for God's sake. But. Actually Working. Try. Reports installed drivers is not loading. Maybe you need sixteen more gigs of Ram that could that could put you over the top you never know. I'm going to check them. Well beyond laptop so you don't usually use. A desktop in the room. What they supply you the desktop. Yeah. Thirty two gigs of RAM computer. So it's not that either damn. What Beast man this is better than my home computer but. That sounds great. Thanks. They probably locked you from doing that or something. Just to make sure they might finish things. Next thing. Again, we're kind of going back a bit from the last couple of weeks Doda plus. UPDATES. This is very unprofessional me but I just remember now, how much of this do we talk about with Kyle I know we talked about a couple smaller sections of this but. Do you re like we talked about the Mr Right being able to. Re. Calibrate whenever you want as a manual. Okay. Well, let's talk about the whole thing then so. With an update they have the new sets that are available, which can Kinda I. Actually it was the first time ever syndrome that I didn't bother purchasing any sets to do a chess opening because I they're just they're just rare nothing special. A and I just feel like hoarding my shards. I, don't know. I'm just waiting for the quality of the items matter that much compared to what they? Like. They're not that good or Yeah. So I didn't even know what rarity the where I just looked at them I. I didn't like any of them like I'm not buying this like, oh, the rare. Okay. That makes sense So if they're coming out the raiders, I mean we've talked about this before but the workshop has kind of been diluted if you will just because there's so many immortals coming out. Everything just doesn't look good anymore right. So you come up with some rare sets nothing impressive but a cool feature they came out with was the role assistant hero grid arrangement. So for those, this is I guess you can consider a new player experience though you do need Doda plus for it, which that's a topic we can talk about I suppose but essentially when you're doing hero picking, you can select this. Option in the bottom left and it'll. Show. Roles for that skill like the Skillset, the your the Mr Bracket you're in, I believe right and separate them by roles. And it'll update live essentially throughout each game which I think that's really cool and I think that should just be a part of the game. What are your thoughts on them? Yeah I. I've always been a bit hesitant with this stuff I know that in other like. Unlikely of legends, for example, the it's more has a defined in in most at least in higher level games. What Role Heroes Play like they have one One. Primary. Purpose. And I've always been a little bit hesitant to implement something. Then don't have because i. feel like heroes a really complex like they can play four different roles, some of the heroes even five. So how do you like place them in a grid like this but it's just like a primary role, a guideline it's hand for players that are not so familiar with the game in. And maybe just A. A source of inspiration ray so you can pick. Like. Okay. Damage to drink some water. I mean answer this question for me in terms of the new player experience when I think of people that have Doda plus I feel like a vast majority of them are not new players. Like what new players are gonNA come in and say I want Doda plus because. Some of these features like this role assistant is perfect for new players. The stacking assistance would remember call. Options where everyone inside the game. Stuff that new players should have access to, but it's behind. A paywall right? What do you think? I mean, this is not only useful for completely new players right? Like even if you've played a thousand hours, still a nice source of inspiration you're like, do you never go into a game and you're like I don't know what to play I'm not I feel like or oh, I didn't get my role that I wanted not playing a different role and then. This can help you. With a bit of inspiration for the game I. Think it's fine for that. So it's not just new players that benefit but I think they've benefit more. If like imagining you start playing Doda. You'd like fifty dollars like really fun I want to play more than you might get doted plus Hillary I'm. If you consider how long you play other Games before you start getting financially invested fifty hours might even be a lot. You Might WanNa buy something in Doda after ten if you're playing with friends and you're having fun. You know maybe you just get it. To get stuff so. Definitely a good thing though just. The only concern if any, I don't really think this is a concern, but it's always there's always gonna be people who look at this grid and then they will pick on like man you pick a hero that's. As a support, you can't do that. As like. Imagine is like a really good support bad game, but this grid only has a bad enlisted s offline. Can have a counter effect for sure you know. Hopefully that doesn't cost but I feel like we're GONNA complex game as. It you'RE GONNA, run into that regardless I don't think there's any way around it. But. In, addition to that feature, they've added some Chat Wilson Effects Plus the Pool Times like we talked about are now available to Doda plus members. post-game Helium Gold breakdowns have merged and battle pass MVP is now part of that as well and in addition, and this is more for you than me because I love everybody I play with but avoid players has been increased from sixteen to twenty five. Do pro players actually think they use all twenty-five isn't that? Restrict your game sometimes probably twenty two now. Wow something like that. You, hate that many people. Hate us a big word. This is people you play game with you're like I don't WanNa play with this player again, maybe not forever, but you just don't want to have to deal with it for a while. Like the whole point of its less and also the size of it is that. You don't block out the entire bracket, right? Did you're probably the problem, right? but it's also that. Overtime. It kinda filters right so that the people that avoided, let's a month ago or two months ago. Let's start trickling out of the bottom because it has a size limit and it's just a rolling rid basically rolling list. So if you avoid twenty five players and you avoid a twenty six, whoever you're at first is now on avoided automatically. Sorry. It'll overtake the US. Yeah and then that player that you had a bad experience with it didn't feel like playing with again If it's been two months. They might be in a better place when they play the mentally more or less tilted. When p five in a month. As just as an example I, don't think so no. It's just a random number. All, right yeah. No. That makes sense. Okay. in addition to that, they have added shards for everyone. So everybody regardless of having doted plus or not. We'll have some access to some of the features. So you can get to hear level five without a Dodo plus subscription everybody can tip. Everybody can earn weekly shards by winning three matches. And Doda plus reward store has been renamed the Shard shop. So you can still buy stuff technically and in addition, and this is kind of a bigger part of the Dodo plus update. I feel especially considering like a lot of the stuff is. Like example, the poll timer stuff we're used to that stuff being like in the battle passed temporarily just moves to Dodo plus so it's not like a huge surprise but this one, the guilds, this is something that everybody wanted. Just as a standalone, so I'm not surprised that we get it, but it's really good to see that it's happened. So. Essentially, guilds are kind of the same as before. You can only create guilds if you have Doda plus. But if you do not have it, you can join and he can take part in the weekly leader boards. So if you're in a certain percentile, you get more shards, more emoticons, things like that and they distribute them every week. What do you think of this system? Pretty cool I think it's great I. Think. Maybe it needs to like this is just a test phase, right? So they have four categories this bronze silver gold and PLATINUM TIER You. Might WanNA spice up the rewards a little bit or make more. Categories than just four but this in terms of the percentile so that it feels like this more of a like. Yeah there's leaderboard, but there's no technical difference between whether you are. In the seventy fifth percentile earned the hundreds right you get the same things on I. Misunderstood something says just for showing off and maybe it could be fun to have something for the ninetieth percentile or ninety fifths. Pro Players always want more. Right, but never happy Cry Chrysler proper sleeping. Cry More. Pro Players. I don't know the thing is this isn't really a pro player thing like a lot of casual players will contribute a lot of guilt points. That I'm in the player that contributed, the most still points across the entire battle pass and now is not a pro player. It's like I. Think it's an immortal player but. Don't. Don't know beyond that pressure close enough to pro player for most of the. this I, like it a lot. I love the fact that they actually brought the guilt over in. This wasn't something that they just locked to the metal pass because I think it has way too much inherent value for the game to be hidden away for half the year. Of Its Go. Then onto the ranked season kind of brought this up earlier but you're able to recalibrate manually if you want, you don't even have to anymore. So that is completely optional in order for everybody to like not everybody gets access to that at the same time apparently between October twenty second, which is obviously was a few days ago and November twenty second you'll have you'll be able to activate any time. What do you think of this change? Obviously, you've play way more rank than me. So I figured you'd be able to give better inside this time around. I think it's better than force recalibration. I. Don't know if we I think we've talked about this before I don't know if this should be a thing. But if it's something that other people really enjoy and it makes the game more exciting and they're looking forward to coming back to playing because they get to recalibrate than. I. Think. That's fine. But I think it's really good that you can base that it's all in. 'cause something a lot of hiring players and lower ranked players for that matter were frustrated with was how much it mattered the outcome of these ten games that You could you know it's a small enough sample size that there's been a block somebody disconnect somebody Tilton abandons a game. The winnable Blah Blah you know will deal that there's randomness evolved in Doda. So. Emma gets your crew that over a long period of time in over huge Samples Ice Oh ten calibration games was a bit. Too Little I think but you also wouldn't want fifty calibration gifts because when people like come on you immoral ready So they kind of had to find this healthy Megan and I think this is good. Now it's like up choose if you want to take the risk or take the chance whatever you, WanNa call it if you have one I think recalibrate. You can only win. Why how many of those people exist? Exactly. One MR MARGINALIZE? Those people off? Hey if you have one MR, please leave a comment on Youtube with proof. If there are more than five people in the entire world with one. With one. Mr, I will be shocked. There is absolute. You think. So of course. Can you go negative. People. I mean that feels like a lot of. It is literally have to win any game that not possible. There's also people that purpose to get to one. Okay that's yeah. If you abuse the system sure but. I. Feel like it's not possibly one Mr if you actually try. Okay, maybe I have much faith in humanity just twenty twenty s keeps crashing down upon me soon there. Has To be a worst player, right I'm not one player sure. There's one eleven k player whatever were. Players probably more than one when the Marange is eleven thousand. then. Probably more than one person out of that x million that has worn listen. Person that has eleven thousand. I apologize those with one Mr you are in the vast minority but just know we are praying for you every day to gain. Another MMR point one day. She'll get more stimulus. Ask gave him for it. Okay and then the last part of their post which was from last week again is about communication which we can kind of segment here just a Tad. they're talking about how they know their communication has been bad So the first thing they talked about is New Heroes, we know the community tends to expect new heroes in the fall each year usually release around November sometime recurrently aiming for the end of November for new hero these followed by more that are spread throughout next year with the next one in the first quarter next year. Are. You surprised by this. No. What do you think of it? The thing is fine. Are you disappointed you're expecting to heroes, right? Yes. Very disappointed. Yes. I think might be a minority on this one that I think I care less about new heroes coming out and I can't more about the core game being good as possible. So the things that I get excited about is better algorithms or game play dates that makes the game more fun or better I. Know That's kind of a part of it. Right getting a new hero of course I'm excited to but I think. If I could run Doda right now. Making new heroes would not be my number one priority I think I, guess that's what I'm getting at I would focus more on making the play experience in general better. And then when that Cisco is possibly can more here it's not all mutually exclusive. That's my argument billion dollar company. They should be able to work on all this stuff the same time even with Cova. I was expecting I was expecting to heroes legitimately I was expected to euros out already by today. Obviously it's not the case. Now I do like the idea of coming out with them semi regularly but the problem is I don't know if faith anymore because they've said this before they said this two years ago but they're gonNA be coming out with Xm what was it like three or four year was it I can't remember exactly what they call an absolute statement listen. It was a general. I can't remember the details anymore but. Maybe. It was like three a year. Later, or maybe they were vague and said they would. More. Saying I don't remember but now they're saying again hopefully, it comes to fruition Hey, they don't have to come out multiple. Here's the same time if anything is probably better to come out them individually so On paper. That's fine. And if they actually come out. Go ahead. Sorry now, go ahead. Okay so I was just gonNa say for comparison to this new hero thing coming out it the post says they've been ramping up of accounts. They've improved the detection systems in recent months and gained more confidence in the ability to ban for it in the past thirty days with band or fourteen thousand accounts set systems to continually van for boosting moving forward. This is an area however, that needs concert improvements not stagnate. Some of this will benefit from more advanced detection methods that are also early research slash experimental stages see. I think something like this does more for the game than getting a new hero that was my point. But like you said, it shouldn't be mutually exclusive if they can't do both at once they might need more manpower or you know. Redistribute their tasks within the company or something because. I personally think for the health of the game something like this matters more than the temporary hype of adding New Euro. But I would love to have both obviously best. That's the kind of thing that I like to see is this even though you know from my individual perspective boosting is not really that big of a deal I know how much it bothers other people in like this is going to improve their gameplay experience more than having fun for six weeks with your hair. This is like a long term. Big thing. I mean I. Don't disagree with any you're saying, but they also mentioned the fact and we've talked about this extensively especially you how you want an overwatch type system overwatch meaning the system within counterstrike goes not the game overwatch nobody wants to take any part of that Godawful game but. They're looking to potentially put something like that in for it specifically says for toxicity and game ruining. That's something that can easily be identified by an overwatch system where you're just somebody's given. Yeah that'd be really good. We've wanted this for. Pretty much as long as it's podcast is run I. Think we talked about this in one of the first five episodes or something how this can be. A really big improvement and we should really learn from that. So for those unfamiliar with the Overwatch. System once again, it's the name of the system that the game. Is used in CS, go where people get score and then they can review, replace and detect offenders and then. Decide to punish are not punish, and then the system will. Based on how many people rate a case as venable or not it will give punishment and then it will train an algorithm based on what people do. So overtime, it could get like this really really high confidence level in what humans would do in each individual case. I don't know how you do that against toxicity doesn't see us go. I was against cheating I believe. They mainly use. which is way more. Than it isn't Doda like cheating does it can be a little bit more tricky to detect that NCIS where if somebody hasn't aimed bought is not fucking hard to see. But. In in Doda some things easy to see a person and some things are really hard to see. So. But just the system is really really good. I would love to see it. It's so over all this post was. Very good it was well received. Not to be negative nancy but that's kind of my job. Now I, guess One thing that was not mentioned at all Kenny guests at Syndrome. Not, even one mention of it. In Bruges. Well. That that is true. Technically but I was not something you might expect to see but we don't see mentioned it. Ti. All right. You failed. It's called the new player Experience Syndrome Oh yeah. True. Yeah. That one they did not. They yeah. I remember last year they said that they'd be working on something coming soon the wording was before zero mentioned of it so not expected to be like some fries edition. Yeah. I would be surprised if they're working on anything right now. Which is very sad. Because I I mean we've talked about it before I think that should be the number one. We're talking about new heroes we talked about getting into smurfs I think all that's important. I still think the new player experience is literally the most important thing and it has been years. Do you think the things that they've done you could argue health the new player expanse like giving everybody shards getting access to that as a new player and some of that stuff and. Combating smurfs more effectively I was combating smurfs definitely a to new player experience because it means on average, a new player will expect better games. But there's no oriel this no way of Lake Hey this is how this game is played or these are the things you should know before you start. That's what you mean by nuclear experience, right? Like basically a teaching tool. So players you're talking. You're talking about an indirect. Help to new players by adding the stuff in. But then if you look more deeply into a talked about it, but tho the plus there's certain things that should be just four new players in the game, but it's behind a paywall and then yeah, no tutorial. No just nothing to help people actually learn the game itself. beyond what's already in the game, which is essentially nothing so Yeah that was a pretty big letdown as well. So. Hopefully. I mean hopefully whatever I don't know hiring to think. I have lost faith in the new player experience I guess. Okay. Moving on syndrome and next thing on the list bts I'll just read the tweet earlier today. The Organization of one of our participants posted a derogatory message regarding an opponent on social. Media. We consider this conduct harmful to both are event and the Doda community daughter is a global game for the players from diverse backgrounds. We do not tolerate such conduct especially, indirectly relations tournaments as a consequence plasma. We'll be suspended for their series today and beast coast receive a default win for their series, which was shortly followed by a tweet by Luke, luke who's on plasma. He wrote to speak for stars, lies, Ike, stir and Pingu. We apologize for the comments made by plasma and no longer have any affiliation to the Org we will be competing as no panga lear going forward any thoughts? Oh first of all, good on them for getting out of that ship because. There's no reason to represent that and I don't think it was that good of a deal. Anyway, I don't even going. To the history of that twitter comical twitter. I don't know it was a cesspool that's to me. That's that's the one thing. Now, the second thing is, why would they name themselves? No Panga Lear, which was the name of a CIS team is that a good strategy to take the name of another team that isn't called that anymore I know with Luquillo. Key right says, of course, Pango is like favorite hero that he's known for But why are you calling? The same. It's like a team banana right now naming themselves sites or something you know. People. From Taiwan no, it's not us at all. So what you're saying is liquid PD has to make two different pages for the team a team with the same. Just come up with another name instead of taking in Houston I. I've never heard I have not heard you so worked up about anything in Doda. Since the invoquer kid just destroyed your life. That voice actor. This is the most I've heard you worked up you really hate no Panga Lear I'll let. SURPRISED LIKE If you're leaving your order, you're making your team or whatever don't you want to have a unique name the people connect you with instead you could have been dinosaur commandos. Sure. Center and I think I've told us on the PODCAST before not to go off on a tangent but For digital chaos that was the backup name I told you this right? Did we talk about? podcast I will say it anyway just gives people don't know I originally wanted. Dinosaur commandos as we had to have DC as the initials because of those cinema. Dinosaur commands was my number one choice I. Love Stupid names. and. The only reason we didn't go for is because we thought that sponsors would not. Like silly name. So we only have like a super try hard Kinda cringe-worthy digital chaos, which again, I will say this once and for all. Whatever you name your team for them there's some anomalies which we'll get to in a moment. It doesn't really matter what you name team as long as it's not super offensive like you know what's not technically offensive but `Nigma is probably the worst team name and all of East sports still continue to use it for whatever reason. But over it doesn't really matter what teeny choose because over time even if it's as bad as digital cash people still ended liking it like again. I brought this up before a genius it this is such a tangent evil genius. It's just think of the name itself. I think it's a horrible name, but they've created such. An Aura around the they've they've been around forever. One of the original organizations they have so much history. They have a lot of fans like it doesn't matter what your name is as long as you pissing people off true. A really good example of that is every American sports. Team. Phoenix Suns Great Name. No talking shit allowed for that one. But the Miami Heat had the Lakers. Doesn't have anything to do with L. A. Anyway. from Minneapolis for those that don't know. So. Anyway we're. We're talking about again. I don't even remember. Look Luke I guess we're done with that conversation. So how do we get to that because you hate it no Paglia. Okay. Next thing on the list Sinderen sorry off on tangents today epicenter announced that they will be starting the epic e Sports League. which will start November third through December thirteenth going to be five, hundred, thousand prize pool. We have teams like Viking `Nigma. Nabi og alliance VP team liquid, and team secret. I don't know if any other details were announced but. That's a big one cinder and that's a big one. The. Does. It doesn't not have any qualifiers. See Graphic. So maybe I teams and it doesn't say anything about qualifiers. So it's an eight team tournament that's running for forty days. These must be pretty spaced out. That doesn't sound right. That doesn't sound right. And sure. Yeah I. Don't have any more details myself but we will keep you guys applies to anything that comes up. And then lasting in the Doda realm, we have a pug ex we had to cancel park tournament. which was meant for sea because nobody signed up, I had one person. message me few weeks ago was like you should do an ESA tournament for parliament. That's true. We show we have a lot of sea audience and to cinema Three teams to sign up. So that was a big no them most from the guy who rotate. That's unknown So we're going to start going back to our original idea, which is both EU A.. So this time around, it will be a an e you tournaments going to be November first, which is this Sunday at Eighteen C. T. if you WANNA play from an a I mean I've played in Luxembourg it's not that bad it's going to be noon eastern is going to be in the forty four chaos. And Yeah should be a lot of fun so. Hope to see you you people there. Next Thing Syndrome Twitch D. M. C. A this is a hot topic lately, L. D. from bts tweeted recently that they had to delete all the old bts Fahd's because they don't WanNa get strikes actually don't know how this works. I don't have any information on this, but is it possible to get three strikes just right away or are you warned because at all? I praise complaints. So my understanding is and this is obviously something that affects me to write and I'm not really. I'm not really completely sure what to do because it seems very undefined in random almost what's happening and I think that's why a lot of these are just playing at super-safe into leading their boss From standing, you can take three strikes and then your channel gets deleted. If you have no strikes I don't know if you can have free at like once like that's like you said or if you get one and then it's a warning and then you get to either appeal or fixture shit and then. Continue on from there but I don't think I've heard of anybody going from zero strikes to delete a channel I've not persona will start. So, chat is telling us that it is possible to get three in a row. which if that's true. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense why everybody's deleting everything So somebody in chat said it was talking about getting three strikes all at once I mean that doesn't necessarily mean he got it in means he might be worried about getting it or. That there are three cases, but now that you've got little if you had three strikes at once or channel deleted, right? That's how I understand it. The Mona three-strikes Chances Gone. So I think it's three claims maybe three claims at once. A either way this is a big deal. So. Basically, the way I believe this works is there's an algorithm that is scanning through your your clips. Everything for copyrighted music, and then some of the owners of music will file the MCA claims that you're using their their music. Whether or not that should be the case I've made my opinion about that on a previous episode that I think for the Music Industry Sake I think it's better to let people play the music. That's my opinion. They can have their own arguments, their own opinions they might be just as right as I am. Maybe. I'm completely wrong and that. From an economic standpoint, I don't know if the exclusivity is better for them or not. And if not then at the very least. Offer the streamers and affordable way of playing cool music radio stations. The problem is that it's really expensive to get a license for that. And now the problem is that seemingly music that is supposed to be a usable I believe even been errors where. Music that you have permission to use gets flagged anyway or game music we'll get flagged if you're playing a game because the game music is copyrighted or something like that. I think I've heard of. So those are Razi yeah, it's just people in this paranoid state where they don't really know what they fully can do an with full punishments are and twitch isn't offering any really key. Tool or any key help that they've probably could have done preparations for for the last five years with this kind of stuff. They you Kinda. Knew it was coming right like everybody was saying it's just going to be a matter of time before this going to be a war about music on twitch and. People haven't been provided with a tool for going through old vadzim clips and finding the ones that have the bad stuff in them is literally just we have detected that they're shitting your stuff and good luck finding it. You're on your own that's basically it. The only thing they've offered is toil that helps you delete shit not that helps you find the Ben News. The funny thing is for that Yeah. As a mass deletion tool, I don't even know if that was I could be wrong I. Don't I originally saw that tweeted out by this and employees of twitch. And it wasn't even twist themselves. So it's not like I don't even know if it's an official one or not but. Yeah the the fact that like the twitch response has been disappointed I think that's pretty much goes across the board. Everybody feels that way. But at the same time like I don't even know what their perspective is because it's possible, their hands are tied. Whatever legal tape there is 'cause I think a lot like we can talk about all day whether the should be allowed or should not be allowed I. I. Understand that is there's an argument to both sides. That's there's no way around that but the the way that it's working out for people right now I think there's no way anybody could say other than you know the music industry that this is how it should because like from the music industry stride like side the laws are so don't. They've not been updated for ever missus it doesn't like this stuff shouldn't technically even apply to like live streaming right but they're just taking like they just don't understand industries all which is, which is the main issue I suppose. I'm just I'm trying I think we've talked about this before but I kinda WanNa bring it up again I'm looking at it from the perspective of the music industry what you have to gain versus lose by letting people play music on extreme. What you have to gain is definitely more exposure for your artists. I mean that's basically right multiple for artists. How. Many people will end up listening to music on streams. Instead of purchasing stuff. That's the equation. Right? Is How many new people do get to buy stuff versus how many you lose or my perspective I feel like it's a no brainer but I could be wrong I don't have any stats to back this up. It's just a feeling. That you're in the. And discover artists and find new stuff to listen to on twitter streams whereas if there's no music just gonNA find nobody. And they're just GONNA listen to the same stuff they already own. So then you're not making more money, people just have the stuff they do. Right like that's how I see it and Like I said, I understand it. The music industry wants in wants a piece of the Pie I'm completely fine with that. If we're playing music that they own than at least give some sort of feasible solution where everybody can benefit where we can play clue music that we like at a fee. That's not tens of thousands of dollars to play music on a little twitch stream you know. That's the problem is that there's not like you said, it's just as ancient thing that's not updated and I think a lot of people in power in the music industry just don't understand what's at play here and what they have to gain and lose their. We own this stuff you're using it. That's bad. We want it and. I think the main issue is We don't even know what conversations are being if there are any conversations being had just like the people being I, I really don't get it but. Hopefully, this ends up finding some better resolution than we're seeing now because like I talked about a lot of orchestra set the mass, delete all their vase, which is a lot of history but this kind of segues into the next section, not neck section but. There's A. Guy Named, Alex Hutchinson. He made a tweet very, very controversial tweet. He says streamer worried about getting their content pulled because they use music they didn't pay for. She'd be more worried by the fact that they're streaming games. They didn't pay for as well. It's all gone as soon as publishers decide to enforce it. The real truth is the streamers should be paying the developers and publishers of the Games. They stream should be buying a licence like any real business and paying for the content the. So this guy is not just some random guy i. His something do with Google Stadia. This was obviously very very poorly received by basically I don't know if I saw anybody that agree with them, but I'm going to read some responses that I. I've out. Pretty. Funny. this guy named Dan Tedium. Responds with terrible take the amount of exposure streamers and youtubers give two games just playing them is worth major money by itself. Some games only market through influences now because it's so strong and works also the creative director at Stadia Stadium literally paid me and many others to promote their product. And somebody that responded to him named Roxie at High Pixel Studios. Rights for context this guy that responding to the game we are working on reaction videos to our unveil video. got a bunch of US please make us pay for you pay please don't make us pay you for this damn. We literally can't afford by this kind of marketing value. And then the. Last response here. This one I found especially funny Well actually I saw this is another one jason. Writes the funniest thing about today's streaming drama is everyone thinks Alex Berenson runs google stadia because his twitter bio says creative director at Google Stadia. He's actually creative director at a Montreal game studio that was purchased by Google last December. So perhaps a little deceiving. And then the funniest and most hypocritical part of it all syndrome. is in response to. This. Post. Some guy named Jack Septic, I response. I find this thinking extremely ironic considering you have fan art of me a streamer as your banner from when I played savage planet. You've even cropped out there watermark in the banner and having given them credit for anywhere. Very hypocritical. So I just had this shit on this guy a little bit more but. What do you think of this idea? Like what do you think of this guy's take I even take it seriously Like okay. Let me put it this way before you get center. Let me just say this. Before we get into, this is not some guy named check Septa guy it's Jack Septa Guy I. Don't know who that is never heard. On Your to some guy named Jack Septic, Guy? Guys I don't watch youtube. Okay. What do you? What do you want? I watch content other people I don't have time to watch other people's content. Is. This guy. Is this guy is big as Pudi? I've heard Pudi Pie. And hokey main. He's bigger than pokey. pokey main. He's smaller than than by. Let me see lassie. Wireless changing the subject to Shit on me again. Okay. Let me see how many followers? Yes, you maybe one. MILLION SUBSCRIBERS ON YOUTUBE That's only like twenty times more than our youtube channel. It's not that big. Anyway. Let me let me. Was I with this? Okay. So the idea I understand the basic concept like of copyright infringement right. Technically I. Think from a purely technical standpoint if you have no knowledge of how the industry works, this argument would make sense. But the problem is like all the things I just read I mean you can call that evidence if you want. But if you have any common sense, you've been watching twitch at all you know the power of the streamers to market your game is fucking astronomical. You Go. For that position to be aware. It's Google Stadium. So actually it does make sense but that's another story entirely. But having said that just look at a game it's funny that this conversation is happening like within the same couple months that among us which has been out for years just suddenly exploded is one of the biggest games of all time because of streamers like how can you even make begin to make an argument against it makes no sense even fathom phobia guy in Indie game may little one person big twitch streaming game now fall guy. Shadow legends, which has made streamers, millions it. That is true they pay. More millions I love Ray Chatelaine. Sponsors, pockets anytime you want. So, what do you think? Yeah I mean. I think the interesting thing here is if like how is this perspective very different from the music one because in some ways you could say it's a similar thing, right but not really so. Here. In this case, I'm not saying the music industry should pay us to stream with their music on right. And it's because the music is not the carrying element of the Stream is it's ambience, right? It's not the the purpose is not the thing that is being advertised assignment. I don't know if there's a world where. You imagine there's a big Dj stream or something on twitch. That has a lot of people watching where music companies would actually pay that person to play their music. But you could imagine that what makes sense that you'd want to promote this new album or whatever, and then you have the DJ remarks or play music from something like that to me. That makes a lot of sense. It's like, okay, you're promoting. His music I'm using extreme for people to buy music, and this is basically what's gone on with the Games. If anything the people are benefiting the most are the game companies that get their stuff streamed to tens or hundreds of thousands of people for fucking free and everybody will fall in love with the game that they might have never heard of just because stream of it they watched chooses to play it. I mean isn't that just fucking awesome for the game developer I don't understand like how can guy in this position not see that that that has so much inherent value. Or maybe the tweet is completely misunderstood and what he's talking about his streamers that. He says Stream Games that they haven't paid for. Does he mean that people emulate games like you're playing pokemon game onstream that never purchased? So using emulator games does he mean that you haven't paid for rights for streaming the witcher whereas you have purchased the game the witcher if it's the second thing I think is complete garbage tickets the first funding. I mean really regardless. He's looking at the word. I agree the first time I read that I was like, what does he mean by that but he doubled down so much on everybody's shitting on him he doubled down on the topic were just discussing. So don't think there's much misinterpretation here. It's just like mind bogglingly bad of a take. But Yeah I don't know I don't know what to say. It's crazy. I was GONNA say. I is there any way that bad? Bad publicity is good publicity as they say is this can is actually true for Google. Stadium, I don't know we'll find out if exists another year. Gula, just makes. Twenty different companies and then five exists in five years. Fifteen of them die next thing on the list starcraft to came out with an update syndrome which kind of ended up being a blog. Essentially saying they're not doing the game anymore, but they tried to kill out with the more positive attitude kind of an end of an era starcraft to never. Really. Early on it was big on twitter. It was kind of introduced with twitch in a Lotta ways helped popularize the platform. But. I feel like it never really reached. What brewed were did in my opinion. But still a very, very good sport in its own right RTA games just aren't really as coveted forever. Whatever reason right now. What were your thoughts on? This momentous end for starcraft two. Oh from what I can read in the Post. It's not like their full on quitting doing anything for the game just leaving it there and just letting the service be there they're still gonNA. It looks like. They are. Oh, wait I. Misread this. So they're not doing a balanced patch. So the game is staying in its current state and it will have ladder seasons like something like I dunno whatever you would compare that to maybe Bruce Moore has a ladder Diablo two stuff like that. That has a ladder, its ups in different. It support to run but they're not gonNA invest. Into Your were made it sound like they were just leaving the game to rot which. I don't know them. In treatment as Heroes of the storm got. Own Scene? But the game is still running and is still has a ladder, right? So I guess effectively, it's kind of same thing just with different words. For All intensive purposes, not many people are working on it's basically just to maintain. Any progression. I think. I'll stay if a game is great enough I don't know how good starcraft to really as compared to prove I've never been like a huge fan of either game. I've played starcraft to I've never played brood war Interest me as much as warcraft three did ever but. If. The game is good enough than the community will carry it I believe the games don't need constant updates to stay as unease sport or stay as a community. If the game itself is powerful enough in people have enough history attachment to it. But it's obviously ashamed that starcraft ever get this biggest they were hoping for. I I. Don't think stark of two is dead with this is my point I think they're still GonNa be tournaments. And stuff done by the personalities within. The. Not Getting any bigger I mean it's been Kinda wild if you want to call it the absolutely. I mean starcraft two was released. It was a big game and with twitch being introduced as well around forget the actual years how that lines up but it was probably the biggest game on twitch for awhile. But then you saw start a stark decline I wanna say especially when leagues started taking some foothold and then eventually Doda to counterstrike. Every other game on twitch. I don't know I I have this. This could be in the minority probably is because most people weren't even alive back then I suppose but I just never looked at starcraft two as being a successful. Sequel. I just always considered Boudoir to be like this untouchable game that. Is Literally. The East you could ever create at least for its time and I didn't think that they did a great job personally. Of capturing that. But I know there's a lot of people that play starcraft two. And it was a successful game overall, there's no doubt about that. But. It is sad to see that you know. This is. Not. Literally. The end but the beginning of the end, maybe from a more official standpoint maybe that's the best way to go about it. I'm not sure. but it is a very iconic game. So and it's really sad that starcraft three will never be a think actually makes me really sub. which will get to in the next topic. There is a company that apparently not related remember we talked about dream haven which was made by old blizzard employees to try to create a bunch of new games. They don't really say what kind of games are making I. Don't think but there is a company named frost giant which has announced a new art. There's absolutely zero INFO, but we do know that frost giant just read this post last week. Blizzard announced that it was ending development starcraft two. It's been clear for why the artists Games don't make enough money for activision. Blizzard's CEO. Bobby CORTEC today a bunch of blizzard vets have announced that they're making a new artist game. That's what frost giant is. So we don't know the universe like obviously they can't use blizzard Ip, which is kind of a big deal, but announcing new artists is very ambitious and is Ordering assist, oh. Yeah. That's a big shot. It. Really is really how so many people feel about blizzard right now the. I mean, what? What do we need to say? Really this is the. Heat he he really wanted a bit of of personal feeling in there. I think this is the Guy Rodney, Jason a video reporter. And he seemingly has a pretty clear opinion about this. Not have a notch shouldn't be the case, but I mean. Can you really be surprised that company wants to make money like that's not. You know there's nothing wrong dad. But You know I, think blizzard. We've talked to death on the podcast by now, but it's like. So do you think the way blizzard runs games right now like say? You're not very much into that at all, but do think. As a company strategy for profit, do you think they have a short term? Primarily as in like okay we need to reach goals. We need to make as much money as possible short-term. Or that they think this is just flat out a better strategy long-term as well that the way they change design philosophy around Games A. four-term, it's like pump extra stuff into games that people can pay for micro transactions for like mounts in world of warcraft or pets, or whatever that people buy us gifts in addition to the subscription fee. So you're kind of. Inflating the price of playing that game for the people that want to buy extra stuff out. Versus investing into developing unique and creative titles that can be the next big thing like. You're asking me a very easy question. I'm not asking you what you think like in your personal opinion what is better because pressure we line on that I'm asking do think ten years from now that blizzard are going to regret run games like this or that it will be profitable again. Like. I have a prediction. In ten years I have a prediction so. So. Yes. To answer obviously I'm biased in this. In this question, but I think long term. This is if they think this is the right strategy then they're going to be in a world of hurt I believe this is definitely more of a short term even have been doing for fifteen years now, the cash grab and whatnot. I feel like even though it's already getting to this point for a lot of people the way that people look at ea right now. Think of the disgust for that company in every which way they make a shit ton of money but. The disgust as their from a large group of people maybe even. has made more money than if they had a better reputation. That's the question like people might hate them. But if there's enough people that buy the Games and buy the stuff in the Games, then you can wipe your tears with. Hundreds of millions of dollars. Look at it. This way I mean you're right like it's just depends on what you consider success. We talked about this with slasher right with over watch how We both had the same thought process but are not the same thought processes both have the same opinion. But then the process was actually the opposite where I would say like Overwatch League is a complete disaster because of how much money like the sponsors will not make their money back in. This can't be good for anybody other than blizzard and he's like, but blizzard made money. That's the success. So we're just looking at success differently right Yeah I mean I mean he's looking at it from the Ortega of the game developer that they have made a lot of profit not whether the game itself was. Successful for everybody else involved. So I, think his pursuers just again. Is. It worth it for Blizzard let's say. A week from now overwatch league gets canceled because. It's not profitable enough the people that have teams are pulling out of it. It didn't make the splash they were hoping for. Is that a failure entirely or did the hundreds of millions that blizzard made from the League still make it worth it. As again is kind of the same thing where it depends on your perspective you're making a lot of money I'm just wondering how long you can go for this fort where people are over time seeming getting less and less satisfied with your products is still making buckle the money though and if ea can weather a storm like this for I, don't know how long they've been in the spotlight now definitely, five years people have thought was shit for whatever reason. They still seem to be doing fine. So I don't know I'm just genuinely curious. I'm excited. Studio that really wants to get back to the core of developing good games that we grew up with. But like maybe we're just a little bit. boomers here. I. Think. To answer to actually answer your question I don't know either because again, it depends on your perspective. I genuinely think within if it's not even closer to this but within five years, blizzard is just GonNa be. EA people would just be like the post follow up to this by the same guy says, I've heard stories of Blizzard folks trying to get artiste games greenland in recent years with no success. So it sadly no surprise to see a bunch of devs who love the game. Or loved John are starting their own company but. Again from a company standpoint, artistes is not exactly profitable I do understand that. But having said that they have they have fired many very talented people that have now created a bunch of game studios so we can only rupe them right Exciting because some big names are making new titles, and if the idol ideology comes back, it could be like A. Players like US could be like a second golden age maybe if these games are good You'RE GONNA go pro and starcraft WanNa Star Trek but kraft star craft star one. I'm just I'm looking for some of the good old. Good old stuff especially in RPG's that I used to love so much to come back a bit That's what I mainly excited for about. What would they call the? Haven world haven something. Dream, haven. And they have a bunch of sued within them as well. But like I said is actually not related to them which I was a little bit surprised by. Okay last topic of the Day a Oh see Aka Alexander saying Alexandria Cossio Cortez who is a representative of the state of New York for the United States of course because there's no other states of New York that I know of. Streamed. Among us so a politician streamed among us with a lot of high. Top Tier streamers if you will like. You know who played with her. I. See I can find the names. Yes, I do know. Who Do you think the biggest players played with was What do you mean that by the biggest? The WHO has the big reach? That she played them on with. Blais while she played with a fellow politician in. I don't know how to say her name Ilhan Omar. Right. I would say. I don't know how I don't know how people pronounce the. What what is it? have. You say biggest played with Jeff to guy. Is Not even on the list here. Did she play with him? He's not even listed. In this article, it doesn't say I mean control F. Jack. Her article it sounds like you really on the same page. They've never heard of him either. So according to this, it was poking main Hasaan Abby. I'm sure people them Hassan but it's definitely been. Disguised Toast and Dr Liu an more. So apparently, this Jack Septic guy is so big he's considered. Anyway, she's streamed this game. What I stayed up watching this to four thirty. A. M. Imperious House like this is a moment which history I want to watch this. So I stayed up really fucking late to watch this as like there's no way I'm not I didn't watch the whole thing but I watched like a good hour game play or something Emily van. And what should be mentioned? Of course like the primary reason for doing this is Alexandra, is first of all, she actually is a game she plays I believe it's League of legends a couple of other games she's never seen before though. But. It's a really good way for her to connect with a younger audience and encourage them to vote like it's no secret. They weren't like pretending. It wasn't there. This was literally a stream to promote. And activate a younger audience to vote Lou in the upcoming election that was the goal here and then so return. Entertainment with big personalities that were. Okay you correct me if I'm wrong I don't think they. Again I didn't watch any of the in you did I. I would be surprised if they said vote blue. As. Part of the Stream to two hundred, thousand people. will go out and. And make sure you vote Democrat that's why she's okay. Well. Now that. Of course like why would she has a huge platform? The majority of people watching probably are people who could rain. Are Not majority because there's a lot of yours like me who can't vote A. But. A the American voters who would imagine are her base are people that would at least consider voting for her or voting in general I mean. So Yeah. It was a it was. She peaked at four, hundred, thirty, five, thousand live viewers. It was huge. Huge fucking stream and it's funny because I was reading some articles about the other politician with her ill Han Omar She built her own fucking gaming rig. Do this so sick that is so cool I'm a little surprised. Okay. I don't WanNa get into politics. I don't really care for this I don't care about this, but I'm surprised that. You're allowed to tell people what to vote as opposed to just to vote in general because it is pretty obvious what they want you to for anyway. But that's kind of another topic entirely, which I don't know if legally there's. I. Think in the US, this is a lot more free to fly than in other countries probably when you think about how you can advertise in the US right like the loss for advertising and the whole culture around advertising is really different than in say Denmark for example drew and then like I believe it's illegal to make political campaign that is literally the other party sucks. Here's why it's you make an advertising campaign about what your what your values are, what you want to do, and it's the same with if you're a car company and your advertising a car, you can't say in the advertisement this car from this other company fucking sucks. You can talk your own stuff up but you can't. You can't defame other companies in advertising, but you can in the states, right So I think surprised me that that extends to politics. It's not the same thing you're not saying, hey, the Republicans suck but it's rather that you're allowed to do something like this in America's less surprising to me than that. You were allowed to do it say, Hey, vote this. Right I mean either way this was really cool and I would fully expect more people to do this kind of thing especially during the election time I mean she could literally do this once a month just to makers I mean she's already huge celebrity especially eight million followers or something like that on twitter share the crazy. But like this would amplify that. Audience. Shack Septa Guy. Here we go. Again, man. You guys are GonNa make me feel like such an idiot for not knowing somebody that everybody else knows hey. No. Actually I didn't really mind this. This'll flooding Senate Dino. Jason Kidd is. Sometimes, really big name that I've never heard of. So I know what it feels like I literally name every NBA player Bron. James. That is funny. You wouldn't know any NBA players, what he had to say, but they're all more famous than. Jack. I know, but this is not an NBA pot wait. That's right. You See. Got You. Okay. Let's go onto the mail bag. I don't know if you look through these we obviously have a lot of questions, but we will do one or two depending Do you WANNA choose how do you want to do this? I didn't go through these at all. Do the top two. Okay. So first question comes from Ted. Question for Suns Fan for whenever what as some are you like in your top Talkradio? Okay. So I don't actually have I literally can't even name one. I don't think the top man I don't really look at the names of the channels or anything. For people that as some are as it's when you make a noise that activates. How do I fucking explain this okay. And the perspective of it from music where you hear really epic score or something really cool. Music its emphasis shiver down your spine, right? Okay. It's that kind of reaction. Some sort of physical reaction to hearing audio. So it has a couple of facts like one. If you get a quote unquote, what is called the trigger, which is a good thing. It kinda tickles your spine If you don't get that triggers sometimes the it just listening to different kinds of ace American, relax you which is really good for like getting into my headaches. And especially when you listen to it as much as I do you stop getting those tangles, it's called tenure immunity syndrome restart to lose it. So you just have to stop doing it for a while and then come back and you're all -freshing any WHO the problem not to get. Sexual. Here Senecas as not sexual at all but. I've noticed and not that I do this anymore. Of course I'm nice. Clean boy but. When you were a little kid let me rephrase when you were in high school and you're very what's the word? You watched a lot of corn in in high school i. Myself Okay. I had friends that were they would go completely over in particular. He just disgusting on a whole new level he is. His Libido was just out of Control Okay and the more he watched the more hardcore he'd have to watch to be aroused. Okay. So that feels if you wanna again, this is not sexual Atta for me like literally adult but the more I listen as Samara, the more hardcore have to get. So it started as you know tickling ears or. Cutting your hair stuff like that. Then it's Not Nails on a chalkboard then it turned into blowing in your ear, and now I've just it's getting more. It's getting to the point where actually look sexual were they're eating your ear and again I have it's like I'm dead down here I feel nothing downstairs at all has nothing to do with that but I get the triggers and it tingles me off it's out of control. So into the ear eating right now which. I'm not proud of it but. Hopefully, you guys enjoyed that analogy. So. Yeah. To answer your question I have no idea I. Don't know any of the names. To me okay. You're eating. You're eating, check it. Out Guys. By, the way a lot of people don't get as Amar and like I don't have any friends that it. So it's not I'd say, maybe minority people probably even. Get triggered but I wonder if I could it's not like the thing I talked about with music way more prevalent, right? That's what something that happens to a lot more people. Is the. Shivers down your spine from listening to music. Does that mean you`re It means you it means you have it. I. Never got it from music. Now think about it's never been a thing. I. Definitely. Get it with you love. Next time we're in the same vicinity I'll whispering in your ear just to test it out. That's. All, I can lick your ear. Look. All right last question senator there and take it. was. Jackson. Why are you? Take it. Yeah. So the next question is from pitch black. WHO ASKS If you had to show one song to a person to tell them all about you which song which choose and why. You can go first. Why me? I really need to think on this. I actually don't know you had so much I have to think about this. Okay. So I don't have a good answer for this because. Okay. When it comes I, have a deficiency that I have to admit to everybody. We're just getting all this shit out there now I have a real problem. Hearing, lyrics remembering like I will literally have songs I listened to thousands of times and I still do not know the lyrics. So lyrics to me are not too important. it's. Definitely, not like harmonising is probably the most important thing. That's my favorite thing in the world. But lyrics are just like whatever they could be garbage for all I care for the most part obviously some exceptions. So I, I don't think there's any sign I could say. Yes I can just say what my favorite songs are and you can choose from them. I. Suppose I think. Country Roads is up there I love oldies house of the rising sun by the animals is God here. That's all I got. People have watched my stream which I guess he can't do that anymore. They've heard a lot of my music so. I just like all these something that tell somebody all about you. So then it's not about your music taste, but about how you are as a person. That's really difficult because I feel like how Amazon Person What Music I listened to really just doesn't align gangster rap. I listened to much different music. I love a lot of rap music which doesn't really like the lyrics and the steam of the songs doesn't it all correspond to how I am or what I do in my life? I listened to a lot of electronic which doesn't have lyrics. And it's very a beep I like a big music a lot by upbeat person I'm very calm. So it's like, I. Don't really know. I feel like nothing is gonNA fit at all. With showing how I am as a person. Should pick one song that shows my music taste is also be super fucking hard because extremely like to all sorts of stuff. So I don't I actually genuinely feel like this is not a Feel like I can't answer. This question that you were sexually does this question to. You just took them in order. This was the second question. I'll. Give one more. Recommendation. Chosen. Why? Right so she chose House of the rising sun. How does that tell all about you? It doesn't. Just songs like. Wasting my answers, just give a song that's your copy because you're not giving any so. What? I didn't hear you cut out. Straight, Outta. Compton. Sounds like a rap song. So perfect. Sounds, like a rap song. His one to Shannon you know the song you surely know this song it's Ok Dowry Shannon. Knows it. I mean, I don't I don't really listen to that much modern music so. Or even nineties or two thousand. Facilities The guy who doesn't know stuff it's always me doesn't know movie or doesn't Nelson. A lot of pop culture stuff. No doubt like Like I said like old like the only modern quote unquote groups that I like consistently are Metallica and system Everything else is pretty much. Also, I would recommend one song though for those if you're weird like me and he like harmonising. You've got a lot of people have not heard of this song. It's Bhai a group called steam powered giraffe who are very weird. But they're song is called Captain Alexander and that is actually maybe my favorite song. I fucking love that song with. I'll put that one is mine. Okay. That brings this episode of we say things to an end until next. Oh God did you see him brush? Okay thanks. Albert Alexander. Wait did I say Captain Alexander Yeah, it's okay. Don't have the name of your favorite. I don't even know the. Lyrics the fucking name whatever Captain Albert Alexander Great Song thanks everybody until next time suns. Fan Center. Sunny. Out. We. Being Thankful.

Doda twitter Germany Youtube US Kyle Google Ram Doda Doda suns Ben Alliance chuck Chucker Dodo senator Chet Lean Nico Babies Green
Dial M for Melon

Forked Up: A Thug Kitchen Podcast

49:35 min | 8 months ago

Dial M for Melon

"Welcome to up your Go-to podcasts for all things. Cowabunga Jimmy Johns and Benny Honner Michelle Davis and our Matt Holliday. Today, we're talking lifesaving melons, shitty onions in the last hooters of the world. Stay tuned y'all is about to get up what the fuck is going on. Everybody. We are back. We are back. We are alive and thriving. YEA, we A little bit of a Kovic scare. We'll get into it. We got some housekeeping to get into real quick. Last week while we were temporarily down and under lockdown, we had a couple of recipes we put up on the site fiar. Every single one of y'all. Even if you think you're good at it, I'll tell you you fucking suck it cooking Tofu and I've been doing it since I was a teenager. So I'm fucking incredible at it. So, we got a Pan Fried tofu recipe of a bad manners, dot com slash recipes, and we also posted a peanut lime noodle recipe that you can add the Tofu into. So. You have immediately a practical dish. Yeah. In the Tofu is. It's one of the fat. You know. We have a lot of baked tofu recipes in our books which I love. But this pants Tofu is for more when you don't have a lot of time. So you only need to press it for about ten fifteen minutes. So crucial I feel like a big mistake. A lot of people make is they don't press, they're Tovia you you and I. Had dinner at your friend's house and he did Megan do. Pulled that telephone. Out of the packaging and threw it on the grill, like no marinade fuck in. It was. It was. It was a lot even. For me I was I was drowning. Sauce. Like if you start talking about I, feel like I. Know. So pressing the Tofu, what the fuck are they talking about just put like a plate on top with something heavy and it just helps get extra water that Tofu was floating in. So you've rung out a sponge and then you're going to put it in something flavorful. So it has space to absorb it. So that's the whole point of pressing. I can tell when I go to a restaurant and tofu dishes, they didn't press this. It's not anything fancy you really you can do it for longer. So like sometimes I'll start to press it, and then like say I was making the peanut lime noodles at the same time, I would start the tofu pressing it, and then I would get out all the ingredients for the peanut lime. Tofu I've probably make. For. The peanut lime Tofu, and then I'd go back and marinade. and. So that way you're always doing something, but it's most of the Tofu time an active, and you only need to marinate this Tofu for minimum of fifteen minutes. You can let it go for up to two hours or even overnight if you really wanted to. But once you hit fifteen minutes like you're good to go there, you're not gonNA, get like amazing result scale like Like, let it go for seven hours of my method is when I take it out of the packaging rapid in a paper towel, and then I'll put it on a plate and I'll put another plate on top of that. This is not going to crush it, but it is giving you just that slight amount of pressure unemployed like a heavy book or two top of. A can of soup or something like whatever you got. But they so stuff on. Amazon, there's devices. You know like twenty bucks and I hear that they work. Great. But like I don't like single use kitchen gadgets, and so I'm not gonNA fucking via toby. I Don I don't fuck with Tofu enough to justify having like a hunger plastic on my counter. Especially, when you plates. But Anyway, we've got that up there for you and you can always just go up there learn the technique, and maybe you have a sauce marinade that you like at home for other things you know or when you buy at the store, just fucking use that and just use the technique that we show in this recipe, and you can throw this like this Tofu's good hot. It's good at room temperature and it's good cold. You can throw it in fucking salads or whatever. Like stay go Pan Fried Tofu and the peanut lime noodle recipe manners, dot com slash recipes, go there now and Speaking of recipes. So you know in this quarantine life, your girls having to pay more attention to what she's eating since she's food even more than usual. And I'm having to be very mindful about getting out and doing some exercise So I started, you know just kind of keeping track of my activities that my water food and stuff on this APP called my net diary on. This is not an ad. This is not an ad. This is something that I personally been using and I notice that you can go to. Their meal function and it's like import online recipe, and you can import one of our recipes online and it'll calculate plugs into our our website. Yeah. It'll just plug right into the website and it'll calculate the calories called my net diary. And I'm. So it'll plug in like all the calories. It'll tell you how much protein you're getting. Obviously, there's a free. It is for, you can pay for an upgraded package for certain things, but the basic APP is free, but I thought that was really fucking cool because it's like Oh. Okay. So you can see how much protein would be in our peanut lime noodles. Look. Look. Oh. Just plugs right in. Pulls every that's so smart, and he can tell you how many carbs are in and all of that, and so you know just for meals like Oh shit. Well, guests cooking. Recipes. because. Sometimes, we get these emails from people asking for the calorie information on the stuff, and we just don't do that because it's time intensive and it's just a guesstimate on these APPs like we can't verify any of this information but. Just, check it out if you're trying to get a rough gauge on. All the Shit we're eating the time it's it's a great helps. Did you see the trader? Joe's the comments again about their labeling we we talked about on Lhasa APSO episode. Yeah? Yeah. So if you not familiar there was a petition, there was created by a seventeen year old high school student in San Francisco. To get trader. Joe's change your labelling on their. Ethnic House brand. Yeah. You know he was just like trader Joe's as John. Trader. China trader. Means Yeah So. Trader Joe's initially like, okay. We you know. We understand how might be misconstrued and we want to be sensitive to that. They have since released another statement like second thought. No. Yeah. It was awesome. Yeah. It's. It's a well worded Kinda like fuck you. But it wasn't even like fuck you. It was like, Hey, we don't respond to online petitions. We are constantly phasing in and out new names and new products you know like so we changed stuff all the time like all of our stuff is under constant peer review. So. We'll get rid of what we want to get rid of, and we won't. We won't Esp I. Think you know, I, think the public backlash to this petition is really what allowed them to have that perspective. Sure. Yeah. I mean I've read the petition and I definitely understand it like I was saying when we covered it I I do think these sometimes, there tends to be an over correction in these things like when the the girl who wrote the petition was saying that like she was drawing into question, the sort of maritime theme of Trader Joe's and it's like okay, does he need to tailored to open a fucking Troubled Times like it's so low on the list of things not saying, we shouldn't get to a, but there are few fucking problems right? In front of me can all change. Yeah. And that are negatively impacting lives, not just making people feel minorly ICKY. Yeah. So but that's the updated online trader. Joe's said. Jason. I also have an update. This was a little while ago. We talked about a man who was suing Burger King because they had just started doing the impossible burgers there and. I stand he was suing them because he believes that his burger was not cooked on a separate grill, and so it still dealing meet. It's not big enough or whatever. Yeah. And so it went all the way to this district court and he the judge ruled that reasonable consumers would not have been deceived by Burger, King's claims nor were they somehow tricked into paying higher prices for the impossible Burger and. He specifically said the plaintiff failed to ask how the impossible opera was cooked. It was kind of like a trap. Yeah. No, it was one hundred percent vegan going in there to do like Jeff, I can thing and the judge is like well, you didn't ask how it was cooked. You didn't ask for an alternative and You didn't alert them to any dietary restrictions. So you can go fuck yourself. I May. So they did Miss Dismiss this class action lawsuit. So this judge dismissed the class action lawsuit that this man filed November telling him to basically go fuck himself. So people might think we would have been on the. The side because dude, no, fuck. You this companies trying to do something and you're going to punish them for not doing it perfectly well. But again, like trying to recall the details when we cover that, I felt like the dude intentionally knew that it wasn't cooked on a separate grow and he said all this up so that he could essentially do this lawsuit like this was one hundred percent trying to beat than into controversy in the courts as being like, no, you didn't do consumer diligence on the product. Yeah. No, I mean the judge said quote. Mr Williams claims simply to have assumed that the impossible walker would satisfy his own particular, strict former veganism, which to him required a separate cooking method solely because he asked the Burger King Restaurant employees to quote hold the. Mayo. But a reasonable burger king guest would've asked how the Burger was coach. Totally, absolutely sure and also own you like I'm a vegan person who moves in the world, and if I forget to ask like very specific questions for some reason, I get something that has cheese on it or whatever. Do you know whose fault that is fucking mine? If I wasn't like, Hey, they're cheese on this. Does this Vegan purists and they I mean, we've certainly had our running with purists since the inception of our company always mad like we've said before they were mad that we didn't share that. We're a Vegan brand, but we don't share slaughterhouse. Gore video, they tested US last week. Yeah. It's crazy to. Okay. So like I'm sure a lot of y'all saw that. We posted on Instagram last week did. Do to occur virus scare. The wouldn't be recording the podcast you under quarantine. All of our results come back, negative. Yeah. Just for some background of a person, very close to us who was one of the like five people we've been seeing. We're very, we don't. I've never leave the house except a war, Bosley? Yeah, and we just have an occasional interaction with a handful of people and this person tested positive, and the only reason that they tested positive was because they were tested through a program through there. They weren't exhibiting any symptoms. So assuming that they had were they did has positive. They were Ason to manage. So our first thought was like well, Shit, then fuel to normal. So I'm probably. Too. Yeah. So we went and got tested very quickly and we stayed away from everyone until we've had multiple negative tests, three negative results. What we tried to let y'all know that we weren't doing a podcast last week just because all that happened in Holy Shit, I? Mean, we posted a photo. Stay. The fuck inside and just saying that we possibly could have Calvin and. We were being very precautious. And we were like we're following CDC guidelines, which by real quick I want to say a plug to Alex over it s graphics. That's who did the image that we used. So we posted that image and we're like Yo. We're fallen see skylines. Hope you are taking this seriously because we're taking this seriously and we still might be positive for holy, Shit. People. Apparently are common section was just fula scientists. I guess because everybody has a fucking opinion about corona virus people were acting like that was our opinion in the post, the which was crazy. Sub Shoving your opinions on my throat and ABC Fokin guidelines? We didn't have an opinion. We said we were exposed to cove it. So we're getting tested and staying home away from people. That's like one. Oh, one, we like what the fuck? We lost the most followers, and that post than we ever have in the history of our company, which is Rena Sing, we lost us to two thousand and thousand followers. We posted a photo saying we may have come into contact with covert were being tested, and we're staying safe from fallen CDC guidelines in two thousand people like fuck you. was and like people seem shocked that we were in the comments and it's like, what part of where in quarantine makes you think out? Block in time. Be. Up In these comments, it was crazy. But it, but it was a lot of is somebody said this? They're like, where are these people coming from? I was looking at the people with the most insane comments. They're not people who follow. Yes. Posted or something what it is, is these communities of people that the very anti like foul cheap, very anti government time mass, very anti quarantine and they when they find content, that is like ours is seemingly innocent did. May, we're taking precautions. Then they all tell each other in the post, and then they just swarmed the comments with fucking ignorance. One Lady brought up child abuse and it was just like you couldn't I was crazy. It was fine. Wild and. A North said since lockdown happened, but I think that a lot of people at home, a lot of people are bored. A lot of people have strong opinions in the only way. They can sort of let that you know Sorta like open that lead and they close it again is social media and people are just posting wild shit and common sections. These are touched like. Accounts. Like it was a dad in San Diego who WanNa dance, let me San. Diego's pretty conservative. But he was like a young dead telling me to go fuck my. Because I, don't want his baby wakes crazy. Absolutely, crazy was a lot. I mean, we're good. We're we've tested negative three times now, please stay safe and police falls I. Don't give a fuck. If we lose all of our followers, follow these guidelines, this shit is real and the people who are denying the people who don't WanNa wear masks. I understand that there is like the sort of psyche of authoritarianism. Tell me what to do and all that shit fine. But the people not taking seriously the a serious just because it hasn't happened to them yet. Yeah. Hasn't touched their life yet. They don't know someone who's gotten it or died from it or anything like that. Yet it. We'll get there fortunately because we're in a fucking massive outbreak, right? Right now, but I hate to be cynical about about that. That's the only way that people are going to take seriously has to spread more well, and this is if you're one of those people who still seeing a significant number of people in your life, because you're not very concerned about it. So imagine right now that you found out two days ago, that someone you were with tested positive for. How many people are you going to have to call and tell that is more than like four people you're seeing too many. fucking. There was some statistic. Might have been here in California in Los Angeles, but the statistic was like one in one hundred people like have you know corona virus. So just kind of like you know pretend like everybody has, but one hundred definitely has. and. I was I was getting groceries and I was like fuck somebody in the store. Kobe's in here to times. Newell Time Yeah, but it's not all dark out there guys theories. There's there's some weirdness. Sharing my favorite thing. On, his twitter. Just, chatting with people about this dude who? Lost His. Penis. was. Okay, I came across one of my favorite articles. Maybe I've ever read in my entire life. So it's all. From. The New York Post, and it's about a man who lost his penis to a blood infection and he had a new one built on his arm. So usually, I'm not a person to read these kind of medical. Forearm to yeah. So there's a picture of him with his right arm under his. Chin. He sitting on the lawn with his knees ups. BLERTA's. Forearm. Straight out and he's got Dick Hanging off of it that they blurred out. Like an immediate click for me like fucking immediate immediate, and we can't. We can attach dicks to arms but can't find a vaccine I. mean this has been really monopolizing. Okay. So he had a taint infection. Okay. and for some reason, this man was in the UK and he just did not go to the doctor. So you went into the article wanting to feel sorry for him because losing a Dick Sucks us just that you have my sympathy. But he had a taint infection that he did not go to the doctor about at all in a place where he had free health insurance and his penis went black and fell clean off, and there's a quote in the article. He said quote because I had been through the devastation of knowing I was going to lose it because it's penises turned black I, just picked it up and put it the bin when it fell off through. This should waiver. Age? And then eventually went to the doctor nowhere. That's organic material. You could throw that in the compost. Do you don't need to do that in the trash that's going to end up in a landfill? Seen. They've fabricate a new Dick yesterday made this new Dick, the article goes into it. Absolutely Love I. Love when there's instances like this, where you have to use the word, penis can't be like man loses rod reattached is the four. Yes. So he's he's been having. He's had this penis on his arm for four years. Jesus, and here. Wow. Maybe that's how long it took to grow or something. This is like one of the last paragraph in the article I'm GonNa. Just read it. fucking verbatim quote at the new penis has still not been attached four years after the procedure, due to a series of missed appointments, scheduling problems at this guy stuff shortages at the hospital, and lastly the coronavirus pandemic, what does it take to get this man to the hospital for his if his dick fell off and he still didn't go to fucking hospital if you're missing if you're missing literal Dick, appointments you lost a Dick due to. Negligence Your own. Your own negligence. You don't have my pity Sir Yeah, and then you get a new Dick Grown on your arm and you this appointments. Busy Lady. You're a busy lady I wonder sometimes when people get. Plastic surgeon until like it's a job. Yeah. I wonder if that's what it is. If the Surgeons Listen My work was immaculate this motherfucker ahead, three follow up appointments. I didn't see them ever again like. I can't believe that he threw it in the garbage. I can't believe how casual he was about his turning black and falling off his body, and I can't believe how nonchalant about walking around with a Dick on his forearm needlessly. Blake. The placement of it is I'm just filled with questions. So our you dude, intend to use this for its original purpose. They did say the Bulls he did not lose his balls in down there. The balls are intact. It's just a shaft uh-huh, and he will be able to Pe- through this. I mean I, guess that makes sense it. It's insane and it's on his forearm. So this man is having to cook with a walking in public like this with a Dick on his fucking forearm, like you lost one free to Google this. He? Lost? One Take arose doing. Google it, but do it in a incognito. Mother. All the men I sent it to did not respond very well, all the women I sent it to or like I'm a crying. because. You know there's already that stereotype that men won't go to the doctor, but also there's the stereotype that men are very attached to their penises. So it's like this is the perfect confluence. Shoot Perfect storm of. Problems. The Guy seems oddly proud again, they blurred the Dick, not this man's face. What is going on in the world, yeah. I. Yeah. No. I saw. You haven't twitter exchanges about. Criminally under reported story like. Yeah I mean with everything going on, I, think that story uses they a ray of sunshine in an otherwise bleak new cycle. You know I mean. It's delicious. That's enough about the forum. Pena's May never enough, but we'll. Come back into my. Let's get into some food his. is now time for this week in food history. Serious Shoot. So in our tour around the kitchen, I was trying to think of summer fruits and vegetables that maybe I could do a little history on and I came across something fucking incredible credible that I had never heard of. So we're going to talk about how one cantaloupe has saved millions and millions of lives are you ready? So we all know the story of how Penicillin was discovered by Alexander Fleming in nineteen, twenty eight. If you guys don't, I'll do a very quick refresher. The Scottish microbiologist returned to his laboratory following a summer holiday and found that all of his growth plates of staphylococcus bacteria had been contaminated with mold, but he noticed that wherever the mold is. is growing the bacteria cells had been killed, and then he figured it wasn't actually the mold that was killing him, but this juice byproduct and that the produced was just destroying the bacteria and this is what flemming named, Ellen, and boom. This was our first discovery of antibiotics like very set laboratory setting, but it wouldn't be until nineteen, thirty, nine that ernest chain and Sir Howard Florey managed to distill concentrated penicillin from mold. But by nineteen forty one, they were finally ready to treat their first human patient. So you can see like how long this took from the discovery of it to you know, okay. We're GONNA test this on people but due to the experimental nature. Nature, of this drug, they needed someone who was seriously ill if not like on death's door. So in nineteen, forty, one, Albert Alexander, a police constable in Oxford in the UK had scratched his face and that scratch had gotten really infected by both staphylococcus and streptococcus bacteria, and he lost an eye already to the infection, and he was getting more obsesses all across his face. So he was not long for this world. So they're like perfect candidate. So Alexander was given an intravenous infusion of one hundred and sixty milligrams of penicillin and within twenty four hours, his fever had resolved and he'd regained his strength and appetite and he was able to talk, but sadly, it was clear. Clear that the mold that they had been working with made very little amounts of penicillin, it took almost two thousand liters of mold culture fluid to obtain enough pure penicillin, treat a single case of substance in this person. So after five days of treating this man, the team ran out of penicillin and his condition quickly worsened and he died guys. This was the world we used to live in people died from a scratch on their fucking faces was that was in forty one. That's really not that long. Our grandparents were alive. Some of our parents may have been alive and yeah. So he he just died a little cut and because they couldn't make enough penicillin. So. was clearly promising going to be a miracle drug, but they needed a more effective way to produce the antibiotic which was badly needed. Since this was at the height of World War Two I read a statistic that in World War One, we lost eighteen percent of soldiers to Monja, and that could be treated with penicillin. So scientists all over the world sent in mold samples to laboratories hoping that they would help discover the mold that could make more penicillin. So on a hot summer day A. A laboratory assistant, Mary Hunt arrived with a cantaloupe that she picked up at a market that was covered in this golden mold in. Illinois. So she went to all the farmers markets in Pretoria and she was asking for all their moldy fruits and vegetables which the shop owners were super reluctant to sell her because it wasn't. You know their best stuff and she's like, no, no, no, no. Give it to me and they thought she was just an odd eccentric woman. You Adore with this cantaloupe. Business I have money you have. Moldy fruit. Bullets. What's the problem. And all these male scientists were testing soils like from far reaches of the earth and all these a rare mushrooms looking for this, you know Miracle Mold and she's just like. Well, let me go to the market y'all okay. So Mary had the good sense to just look in the store and look at moldy fruits and vegetables, and lucky for us. Her Mellon Mold on this cantaloupe turned out to be a different. Different strain of penicillin, and it yielded two hundred more times, the amount of penicillin as a species that Fleming had discovered, and when they put it under an X-ray able to activate its yield amount and eight, mean it just exploded tons and tons and tons of penicillin. So that mold that Mary Hunt found on that cantaloupe is to this day. The ancestor of all the penicillin in production is pretty crazy that she. Medicine Yeah, and you can see and a lot of the news of the time. If she was mentioned all it was as a errand girl but she actually worked in the lab. So while Fleming Florey and chain were all awarded the Nobel Prize in physiology or medicine in one, thousand, nine, hundred, nine, they didn't even mention Mary in their speeches or publicly acknowledged the work. She did both in the laboratory the mold and her single-handed discovery of the strain. So she was she worked in a lab. She helped isolate the mold at the very beginning and she discovered the. The mold and most article can find only one picture of her and it's like with an another woman that they're working in the lab. But it's not like as a like Oh look at. This is the woman who found the cantaloupe that saved the earth road. So Lena, the statistics, I gave you earlier about eighteen percent or soldiers died from pneumonia. In World War One, we lost less than one percent of soldiers to pneumonia in World War Two because of penicillin, and half the reason that day was such a success is that they had stockpiled enough penicillin to treat soldiers shutouts. To marry hunt. Yes. She She should get some fucking postmortem notoriety like I'm not saying that these men didn't also put in the work. 'cause they absolutely did. But I think to overlook her contribution especially when it used such good common sense. You know what? I've always said that like on particular about melons. And some of them are just flavourless worthless. What did she use? Yes Cantaloupe. fucking. Worthless. Nearly. Not. Yeah. No, you're gone wrong. I was next time. You guys cut up a cantaloupe for summer treat just remember that. Every time you've used new sporran anything else. The reason your grandparents didn't die from like a cut and all of us are living is because fucking penicillin from fucking cantaloupe, but you don't have to get cantaloupe because nasty honeydew is the worst of funding to do his bed. Yeah. It's stole a great name. Honeydew is a great name, but the product itself suffering, but a good cantaloupe is fucking delicious. So thank you, Mary Hunt and I think you can. Fruits or vegetables onto the planet. Welcome to recall get. Ready for This week. The FDA s recall of onions due to a multi state outbreak of Salmonella infections. Now, this was originally traced through producing here in California called. Thomson. Their national originally. Originally, and they believed that it was only red onions that were the issue. Now, health officials are suggesting that it is all onions and if you can't tell if you're earning chain from Thompson of here. Is there a barcode on a fucking onion like I'm not well? Sometimes. They have a sticker on a more often than not. They don't papery skin yard, but health officials is saying if you can't tell just story onions way just to be safe. This is something that went out of production. May I? So I, mean, if you just go by new onions at the grocery store now you're fine. The Center for Disease Control has reported Salmonella. Across thirty four states with three hundred, ninety six related illnesses. fifty-nine nine hospitalizations imagine in the time of Covid. Like really sound Manila really Q-. Phone call. The poor person having to the hospital be like, is it covered now? I forget this. You're one of them's shitty onions. On damning. Woods fucked up about that. Is I mean onions in almost everything that we cook well and Almost. Everything that most people cook like. Truly Universal Ingredient, cornerstone to food you name Oh fucking type of food and there's onion dishes. True. What are we thinking? I mean, that's pretty devastating. If they were like look, we can't. So onions anywhere I like six months how that would change food, right? Yeah. What is like an ingredient that if they did that you, you really miss. I think if onion shallots, garlic we're all gone. I. Don't know what I would do. The would change cooking. Stop everything smoothies. Just give up on solid food. It's no worth it salsa everything thing you think of your favorite dishes. Much, any kind of Pasta Pizza Pizza Burritos Marinara. Can't everything's got any new damage? Another devastating tomatoes in everything. Yes. Tomatoes would be devastating. Rice would be very devastating over Sean and globally globally for shore dating. Yeah, fuck. No. Because I, feel like if they took Avocados off the market for like six months, we would piss and Moan about it, but we'd be okay. Yeah, it's a it's. Made does like these are crucial staples? Yeah. I love Avocados, but it's not a core ingredient too many dishes. It's a lovely edition too many dishes. Where tomatoes and onions and stuff like that's the foundation we're talking carrots, onions, celery. That's a mere PLA. Baby. I was supposed to make assumed. God. So y'all watch your onions I guess. Yeah. Just throw throw away just. Onions like. Fifty. Cents, stowaway. Could it be ten dollars Michael. Banana cost. Onions cheap. Yes. If you have onions from a month ago or several months ago, get fucking rid of them. But yeah, it's spoken wild out here. y'All. So. I have a great story for you from our fair city of Los, Angeles. So there is an outdoor mall called the Glendale Galleria here in La. It's not the chic EST shopping district in Los Angeles never been I've driven pass it. Solidly. Upper middle though in terms like it's not like a Shitty Mall as outdoor malls in Los Angeles go, but it's not the top four. Nicest. A random thing that I know about them all despite never having been inside of the p. a. that rates, all the movies for everything that we watched. It says rate at arts rated PG thirteen. That's in that mall. So Weird. Yeah, and it's only about sixteen people. The the entire MPAA is less than twenty people in the really secretive about it. But I I. Know I've talked about pass episodes about how my job when I worked in the studio system was, is that we rating back if it was like, are you know because we show to me? And my part of my job is to do research on movies that got a PG thirteen that had the same content. The we did. Yeah because the NPA not going to give you that information. But if you go to them and you're like look y'all Greenland, this John Candy moving the nineteen eighties, hundred had the same amount of titties that we're showing in this fuck in. You know moving twenty and eighteen same thing. Then they then they let escape. For a peanut farm. There's no precedent. There's no precedent. Anyway. Engine. Tange. Yes. So there are almost two hundred retailers including like three dozen fast casual restaurants. Sit Down eateries and snack vendors, but due to Cova, only about five of its anchor stores remain open. That's Bloomingdale's Dick's sporting goods JC, Penney's macy's and target an only McDonald's and in and out, there are allowing walking customer. So every other food service, there is doing curbside delivery or pick up or takeout or something like that. Since an IT's an outdoor mall, they do have ample outside seating like all over them all, but they're filling up really quickly because for some reason, people really want to eat at the fucking mall right now, people want to eat out. I, have a theory about this I. Think a lot of people can't cook well, hold on. Okay. This is only a backup that theory. Theory. So all the spaces filling up, what are what's the Galleria GonNa? Do they want to keep people there because they want people to keep spending their money? So they set up folding tables and chairs on the ground floor of the active parking garage. Good. And it looked like a fucking nightmare. You too could enjoy your meal next to a cinderblock and a Prius. Yeah. So Bananas Fuck is so hungry or so desperate to not be at home cook that they are. We'll take it home. I'm not even GONNA. Shade you picking up the cheesecake factory? You don't have to sit in a parking garage and eat waffle fries. No reason. Then, like fucking walk over to a park and even the cheesecake factory. and. It's not like you're like, okay, well. It sounds like it must be a really beautiful. It's just park and you can't even see the outside from the floor of this. You just see more buildings. That mall is probably like the first thing that's technically the valley over the hill. Yeah. The mall exact say that eating beside a row of recently park cars is like totally fine normal, and here's the quote they gave quote. All team has gotten creative so that our guests can experience as small sense of normalcy and have a meal in a safe distant way. Sin. Leslie Kahn, a spokesperson for the Brooksfield property person who owns small Berkshire, they they own. If you guys look at, it honestly reminds me of when there's a natural disaster when they're trying to feed people like in bulk, but these people are choosing to be there instead of wherever they live. How bad things are? Things at home like listen. I have eaten. Many a meal in my car pulled over in residential neighborhoods and sat on a curb and eaten a meal. I've done all of these things. I've also eaten meals in parking lots. But the parking lot was never really choice. It was a matter of convenience. This is one hundred percent of choice. Honestly when, new, Jersey. Keenan. Glendale. Gallery saw I thought this was an onion cap. Fake. It looks fake straight. Just put chairs and shit in between parked cars in their lives. And it's not well lit and it's just so sad looking I'm afraid that we have yet to reach the bottom of Dystopia, Ian. News. No. Like this is this is bleak but I have a feeling. It's GONNA get worse before it gets. When the patients come? This looks like it's underground though this subterranean, it's not subterranean I've been in this parking structure. It's not necessarily set underground, but the ground kind of slopes down. So you see either buildings all around you like the base of the targets of current. JC. Penney's. Or there's a planter that's like a little bit above ground. But yes, you're not getting cooler as you're getting exhaust exhausting. A cintas photo to yesterday there is a Sushi place in my neighborhood. And Look I get it. Everyone's trying to bring the business back whatever. Man They've fucking tried this. Behind the Sushi restaurant is parking lot and is where they keep their giant rollaway trash bins. So they painted the trash bins which are behind a steel frame in this, this spray painted with all different colors. It looks like A. It's like Blues and Greens and yellows. Cars and circles. and. Smiley faces looked like clown. Yeah And it night. Assume. Night, the hall out. Though hall out like like a like a planter, a Trea, and like a couple of folding tables and stuff, and it just sits empty a walk Bosley by twice a day. I've never seen anybody out there. It's real depressing looking. I would eat their long before eight at the GALLERIA. There's definitely tiers of people opening up outdoors sort of. Dining area and letting it has to be nice. It just means did not be actively horrible. ALFRESCO. Always hated that phrase. Yeah. I hate it even more. That sounds cheesy. was. Unintended I could you imagine going to a Sushi restaurant and they're please have a seat by our dumpsters painted clown colors in enjoys some fish that we hope is fresh. Listen. They're trying harder with a smaller budget. Glendale Galleria with an enormous budget. Their budget was three Kansas spray paint, all different colors and a plant from home. Depot. Just. Put Up Orange cones and caution tape. They're not even nice tablecloth or fake plants. Our hope waiters come to the table. They just throw it down how. People are just walking over there with their plastic bags from the cheesecake factory restaurants there. But I'm focusing on the cheesecake actor. Vendetta. cheesecake was I. DON'T REMEMBER WHY got A. It was I was there I had to go to the Glendale, gallery to pick something up, and so my move if I ever go to a mall is go to ask rocket on link as soon as she opens in, there was a line of people I remember like thirty deep waiting for the cheesecake factory dome in on Friday and I was like, what are we doing people? People just do not know how to cook and they're not using this time wisely to try and learn. Yeah. The more restaurants are closing. There are a lot of restaurants closing. Did you get that article since you about the only remaining hooters open in the bay can't from? From where the suit says. is an East Bay, and that's why it caught my attention not in the east. Bay. It's okay. So I'm not that familiar I know San Francisco and but that's about it. So, it was the Noma is further east, north? Inland? But that's where so all the hooters in San Francisco and surrounding areas have closed. Yes. Because of COVID and there's only one it's open and you gotta drive to Sonoma's we thought was known for its wine country, right? Yes. That's why it's so fucking funny be. So it's in Rohnert, Park, which is where Sonoma's state is. So it's a little bit different than like the outline because it's a collar shown. So it kind of makes sense that there's there is a kind of toy. hoity-toity clones. Absolutely. All of SONOMA's. But I mean the hooters makes a little bit more sense there. But like not the east, Bay, the fact that where I'm from in the fucking East Bay that they have never built hooters. That's how shitty. But I don't believe this hooters holding is is holding on what we know about it. So saying on I'm looking at it right now. So this is a sidebar apparently, I knew that this was founded in Florida, they have completely tracks. But hooters started in Florida in one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty, three, by six businessmen. They wanted to open a place that quote this is from their website. They couldn't get kicked out of. I'm not sure that really good business ideas come from I've been ojected from too many businesses. Go, start my own business where I won't be objected. Yes. How what kinds? Okay. So think about everything that hooters office. Okay. You got your wings Yes sports. Likes you got your beer, you teasing legs. How many Strip clubs did these six gentlemen get kicked out of before? They were gonNA open her own restaurant. All just like a will needs to, we need to pretend like it's a family place. So the wives can't get mad. Like. Jano from Houston, I know a lot about Serb clubs data people that worked in strip clubs. Houston as a strip club capital of the world We have a very famous club not far from where I grew up the there is a wall outside the parking lot is served clubs drive by you only really know that it's a strip club, the wall was built. I think in the nineteen sixty cars and it was for the car so that wives wouldn't be able to drive by and see their husbands car in the parking lot. It's crazy. anyways. Do you like hooters has always been like softcore strip club? It's like the Mormon Strip club has like you can still go there and you can eat wings and you can see titties and you can pretend like it's just wholesome. Fun I. Feel like Buffalo, wild wings. That same thing and they're like, yeah, we're just not going to. There's Internet porn now. Like. We're not gonNA invest in the sort of like slutty culture that hooters. And? What's the other one twin peaks? There was another restaurant. hooters model something like that I. Just Really Love How much we talk about chicken wings. Lord. Have mercy says it is twin peaks, exact. Same. Okay. But they got kind of like a lumberjack feel to it instead of all time. An hour via like a sexy Alva- I've you know. They got they got plaid's with sexy plaid over twin peaks. Enough. So this is the last tutors open in the bay area. You gotTA drive all the way to. Go there for the enjoy the wings sports called Beer the beautiful young ladies and some wine. It's GonNa be on Sonoma's? fucking Williamson. Whining Titi country. Raff they arguing drive-thru strip clubs Oh. Yeah. Houston we. Again Houston Strip club capital of the world baby. It's very stope. Ian. But almost the entire, they can make it pretty sexy like the girls with the gas masks on and like I didn't hate it wanted to hate it, but I didn't hate it. The photos of the drive through Strip club in Houston look incredibly. Like something out of like a blade runner movie, it's what they need to do is they need to get with the haunted house industry I played really bring some stagecraft to drive through Strip club. Maybe we should do this. On board? With, our. Company. Can bring a level of. I. Mean. No out of work stagecraft people and Broadway to June off saying we're creating jobs folks. Yeah. What do you do with the money? Just throw it on the ground. You throw it. You try to ball it up and throw it at this stage because. You have. So it's kind of like a drive through car washing. There's polls on either side. There should be boxes like almost like a mailbox on the metal poles that separate you so that you can just put the money in their incur. When she's dancing, just takes the box and puts another one there for the next girl. He's like giant trash. Just for the first time, I just I have all the answers. We can spend the rest of the afternoon on the brand name. Reality. Oh I guess we need to wrap up the fuck. Fuck it. That's our show or out on strip clubs and flagging chicken wings. All learn of emergency talk about chicken wings. Buffalo Wild Wings every third. Start Invoice them for address. That so show your thanks for being patient with this. We are back. We are testing negative. We are being cautious a highly recommend everyone. Do the same, please please please. Wear a mask you mask. What's kill you can do for your math. What you can do for for the country. Oh, Lord Butcher. fucking. Shout out to our producer, Sean and his cute s new cat that he's got Luna. Yes. And shattered to the audience, the Science Believers. It. Isn't exchange when we do have like a mass offloading followers. We lost two thousand followers in one fell swoop. But then like a thousand people were like, Oh, these people are making sense. But. I was. Surprised at the overlap of the quote unmasks community. In the follow us and Co carpooling. Yeah. And there's like yoga people and like I said, it's very. In Sixteen, when we got more outspoken against are twenty seventeen when we got more outspoken, trump, we another mass on following. Widely. So many trump's supporters has raised to me Oh lord, but Yeah. We got two new recipes up on bad manners, DOT com, and you'll stay safe. Ask Keep Cook and wash your fucking hands and we will see our next week.

Penicillin Dick penicillin Mary Hunt Los Angeles Strip club Houston Sonoma cheesecake factory Tofu Trader Joe Glendale Galleria Burger San Francisco California UK Glendale Dick Alexander Fleming
The Good Lord Bird Featuring Orlando Jones

FanBros

1:35:46 hr | 5 months ago

The Good Lord Bird Featuring Orlando Jones

"You are now listening to four owner Show a podcast about geek and pop. Culture from a perspective of people of color for all nerds hosted by dj benami and tatyana keen jones for on shows a member at allowed because network. We always say rest in peace to our founder combat. Jack for all nerd show is powered by listeners. Everything we do from our podcasts live events. Our website are all independently funded. Please continue to support us. Do our page at patriotair dot com slash for all nerds role. So and what's up. Y'all look this episode before all. Show the voice that urban eat the podcast every distrust deep culture from the perspective of people of kalaw and as all ways. It's your boy these. I mean aka premium. Peter parker baymax meal house. Lebron shame patrick's really ben. Charlie brownish like were tagami toss a coin in injure here on the spaceship doing out there and that was almost all of them. I i got more. I keep going. How university's own a. Hey that when that hits different this week doesn't it Just a little bit as joined by my co host tatyana king also of the illustrious. How're university also the granddaughters. The tech aka lambeau rizzi and beretta scott king deuce piccolo j. prince of all saints dame diner dash the team of the north and the lord of light sabers nice nights nights. And like i said before you are listening to the four on their show for those new listeners for everybody out there to fall nurture we talk culture from the perspective of people of color. You can find us all over the internet's on all the various platforms. Such a soundcloud spotify anywhere to better. Podcasts are at you can also subscribe to us on twitch tv slash fall nerves or you can follow us right there on twitch dot tv slash for all nerds All of our various merch like this beautiful logo behind me is available at t public dot com slash stores slash for owners. You now that's all the way we can get right into the show you know like we said howard university zone. Yeah we have a black female v. P. on deck that went graduated from the lustiest the real the legendary the only one h you know how our university it is what it he is to be against. Yeah oh don't it Listen i know that there's one thing regardless of how you feel about kamala harris regard you feel about biden and all this other shit you guys to get the props of the history. That hasn't made. I think the one thing that did hit me at least in the last weekend this past weekend was that even through all the mass and the bullshit we've been through. We are witnessing history. that's important. I mean as you as a black woman and a howard graduate You know what i mean. How do you feel. I feel incredible. This is just you know what this is just a continuation of the shock. That my ten year old self would have gone through. Because i went through. I think i was like ten or so win. A teacher access you know. Do you think they would ever be a black president. And i was like no very admirably. And obviously two thousand eight happy with barbara and i was a student at howard university when it happened so that was just that was just beyond any that was that whole experience was beyond my imagination again from my old ten year old self but also just from the factor of being on a on a historically campus with friends and family and and and the city going nuts and the city just going off. I should say. I'm i'm trying to watch those. Those those terms by the city going off the world going off and then to essentially see this happen again but this time of the black woman a black woman like it's i. I am thrilled. I am absolutely thrilled. And again i said because of all the shit we've been going through it hasn't hit at once but it's slowly really creeping in now like you know this is happening bro. Yoshi is a step away from the presidency That that's what bugs me out. Yeah yeah. I won't lie when the when they stepped on stage. Both of them when she came out in the platinum suit. You know stunt cream with the patent. Thai thai was like platinum. It was ninety three panel. You're right you're right touches. Become better so insufferable right. Now go from get worse. That's just the early parts of it. I cannot lie like when she steps out on stage. I am when they started speaking. I was i mean sobbing full on oil. Yeah like just tears down my face just streaming down my face for so many reasons. You said the history of it. You know what i know what it would mean if someone like my mother. My grandmother black woman tape this office. then what struck me during biden speeches. I go and never had to listen to that clown again. You know i mean. And what an amazing. I mean both of their speeches calmly gills but those like really good speeches run. I was trying to gauge. Is it because we've just again we've been mired in the in in the ship for so long that everything's amazing because it really was a good speech at the day when you look at it in a vacuum but issues like i think that was the best. I've heard her speak. 'cause i've never really been a fan of her as a speaker. You know. I wasn't sure about our policies just as speaker. I wasn't a fan and biden israel to people who can't wait to hear bite on her. You know but i think after hearing these clowns for so long and i think they came with their game night and they were both both. Oh shit this is dope yes super came and then and i wanna say be very clear to everybody. Just because we're we're everyone's seen their praises. I let black people will be happy one like you. Don't have to rain on the parade like we know this stuff to think about and stuff that we're not gonna forget we but let us be happy number one I must say about me as black people. But i mean it's black people Number two this is just the beginning. Because there's so much more work to be done. And i'm holding bite into the fire. Because one thing he did say in his speech he was or or maybe he said another time. I don't remember but he said the black community came through for me. You know back. America's came through from me he said it verbatim and then i tweeted at him or maybe tweeted and i tweeted back at him tweeted. I'm going to hold you to that. Joe and i think everybody is. I think and like. I've really had talks with real friends over this week about this. Because my media. Richard wasn't of joy. Like you know even when i found out that biden had secured the electoral votes. I was like okay. Whatever you know. Because i think one i was so sauce. Did you know just so is also from this whole for years of just all this nonsense but in to our know that america is in the world. That's what i'm always talking about on. The show isn't such a more precarious place than the little things that we get distracted by every day and so i'm trying to maintain joy in the face of that but then i also feel like there's just so much nonsense like immediately today after everyone's like oh llc in the far left we can't go that left. And i'm like dog is seventy degrees in new york and now in november and reelected fascist openly white. Supremacist president dog. It ain't possible clearly an also a reality so star. This is not presidential quality person. This isn't someone who had like literally y'all elected a reality show person and that's my problem. Immediately is that people were pushing back against the democratic party within their own party. Instead of being like y'all but i will do whatever it takes right now because it just sort of precarious position but at the same time we now have a person who at least respects science who respects math like simple concepts that no no. It's mind blowing to say that he had to say that was put that under speech like yo science a man because you have to an all this is reaffirming and again i want to be clear like things to go back to normal or never ever same time as you said. They put these in their speeches because they need to reset like the expectation. There should be an expectation that there is decorum in our government. Particularly in the in the highest reaches of the white house there should be the expectation of grammar a comprehension understanding and as we say science math on other stuff like that should be basic and i know people like will. Y'all praising them for the most basic thing might look at what the fuck we were dealing with You have to champion that. Because we need to normalize that again because it became for for too long is become normal. Just ridiculous yeah and also to say whatever to exposed to say too quiet powder pa part out loud. Oh we get it. Somebody put funny tweet. That was like oh finally get to go back to the good old racism. And i'm not. I mean it's the it's the funniest joke and yes we we get the nuance behind it. But it's like. I hear you bet i'm with you. Yeah and i'm just. I like i said i'm just worried about the world. Like i said it's seventy degrees in new york right now. You know we need to do something about climate change. It is not that hasn't been being done for four years. Seventy five today. There's just so it's tight out here folks you know and as people who grew up as deeds and stuff i i just don't want to see it you know and i hope that we can make a much more concerted effort than what we've been doing lately in instead of focusing on all this pure hitlerites and nonsense like it's just so wild a were wearing like i was talking with a good friend of mine where i'm yo the world. We're we're not in facts anymore. Facts don't matter you know. And that's scary to me that that reality can be manipulated very easily. And then you can get seventy million americans to go along with you and then people like re tweet something you know one hundred thousand times before somebody says your that's fake and in person who says that it gets repeated five times more man. I don't wanna depress people and all that you know i. It's not so much the pressing you you're pointing out something that that i mean we've we've salata buffs has known but to really understand. You have to be hyper vigilant. We literally lake i. I'm trying to think of a good analogy of this. It's like we live in a virtual reality world for real real beyond just like the tech over. I mean the fact that is construct everything around a concert from the stories you hear as you say from the quote unquote fake news from the people who who deliberately share false information and pass it off. As real that gaslight people you know you say you was four and they like sun and six and then we'll gas light you to death and then have people behind them like like like asking them to believe that we living in that this type of were right now and to your point it is scary as fuck and i and when i say the only part of normalcy i'm interested in returning to is is Logic and common sense really at the very least. Yeah and sometimes. I feel like on this show preaching to the choir people who listen to us for the most part i think are very advanced people who look at things in a different way in the norm. Who aren't about all this nonsense sometimes audio and i talked about this They've already heard and the people don't who need to hear it aren't hearing it from us and that's the problem. That's the problem. Anger live in a society. And just talking about what the world because you know the internet is really the world. We live in a society where everyone also deliberately or not puts himself in their own echo chamber meeting. If you if you have these wild views you probably gonna lie yourself and more people have the same views and you're going to live in that bubble and then like you said the people who really need to be listening to our what we're saying are going to be available and that's something interesting to. I used to argue with somebody about that about this show. They blow yo. This show is just an echo chamber but my thing is there are certain views where i don't wanna hear it like i don't even like i don't even see people re tweet people anymore where they re tweet people in i look out. Dumbness is because it's like we get it. That's just dumb by re tweet. The people were expressing a positive view. How you want to see the world is hoppy. Like don't re tweet the person who's it's person in negative view. We know that's out there. Like i'm not for anything that puts women second you know. I'm not for having those arguments anymore. I'm not for having an argument with somebody about the validity of something as basic as black lives matter. You know. i'm not trying to have those arguments on this show. Yeah it's a waste of time and it's it's honestly it's beneath you. It's been all of us. I don't have to prove my my. My validity has a human being especially on the black human being. Saved your fucking ass from this along with the rest of of the my people who once again black women specifically once again save this country but also like i just want everyone to just take a moment and breath this breathe. This breathe walk outside. Clear your head and get to work That's georgia worked to georgia anybody. Listen to this georgia what up. Y'all please vote in january. Spread the word all of that because that's the net separate. They're in there. You know you're gonna have to keep focusing on the nets love all other local elections coming up in twenty twenty one and you know. Start from the bottom and that like you said. That's how words. That's why people don't get like obama was on lebron show rig episodes free for the rest of november. I think on youtube. And if you if you haven't seen check it but obama race that point he is not about just the president you know. There's so many people that made this country run and we have to focus on all those different things because that's what they did. Trump put in a record number of judges not just supreme court but just federal judges throughout the land. This man just took every single. You know david all these people you know who he's giving it to. Yeah and and all of this generation children people jail time. you know. It's everything laurie. The destruction is due sold into this not to say that the country so hunky dory but that level of destruction that has occurred in a short time of four years is immense but it also people look and that's another thing it's like people weren't even aware electoral college any of this shit but people got smart real quick. You know so we go your you know and we're take a break right here because we got you know we are to talk a lot of fire just now and we have. You know i mean you are. You're y'all seen preview already. Yeah you already know. I know which are here for this summit that i'm gonna let you on notice some of that but there's a lot more than just that you know so states. Hi i'm professor brandon. Oh buner scientists studies genetics and epidemics. And when i'm not doing long division. I'm listening to four all new york. This is danny law and this is and we are twins fees and when we are not writing iron heart or james bond's we are listening to or all nerds pie. My name's jen king. And i pay. Jackie later on that is blocking kings when i'm not cooking apnea recipes in my kitchen. Then i'm listening to for owners. Hey everybody this is peter. Andrew time director of rise of the guardians and one of the records of spiderman. And i like to listen to four. All nerves with tatiana and the great thing i mean they. This is hero cutting gala actor and playwright and you are listening to four all heard all the way. Hi this is lexi alexander. And i'm a filmmaker and a writer and when i'm not playing with my toys and feeding myself and my dog then i'm distinct to four all nerves this out to assad though and when i'm not on television and movie sets i am listening to four all nerds and welcome back. Faw nerves to this fabulous show we have here for you and of course as always we are up here in the spaceship night because we have every turney guest friend of the of these show. I'm stuttering messing it up already but let me just bring him on in demand himself orlando jones here on the spaceship you know him hold on what the introduced get. Everybody knows who you are man. No mr nancy. American gods believe from drumline. Captain frank irving. He's hit on black dynamite man on the new series on showtime the good lord bird. Let's all welcome orlando chose station tonight. Be here with all you aliens Ata aliens and other haley. Aw gathered here on the spaceship. What's happening man to see you good to see you. This is so funny that like does to introduce you. Say you're from like saly. i would have led with that one. That's a little background. You got over here. You got the hexagons and everything going on behind you use said spaceship where you think. I was gonna show up with a school bus. A green schiff welcome. I'm really happy to talk to you about your hair. You haven't project on. Showed sign all the good lord bird and obviously we're gonna get all into that But we just wanted this kind of reacquaint ourselves with you. I mean how have you been called up. I can't i can't complain. I look life is a. I think has a lot to do with perspective right this the waitresses things. No you choose to see things and if what you choose to do is find all of the negative things going on then you can. You know bad you're gonna have a really bad day. Kaz is right idea. Ready to plug it up but if you can refocus your attention on on things you want to accomplish in on The positive aspects of how you can make life better in the aftermath of such change. I think you can. You can try and move forward during this time now. That's obviously harder said than done. But i really kind of focused my attention there Because with so much stuff going on. I think it's really kind of maintain a clear. Focus for me anyway is to is to focus my attention on what can get done and what i have control over what i don't have to ask permission for and in in that process I have found this time to be not Not as difficult as it could be seventy good perspective because like you said if you go looking for the negative you know you're gonna find a even today. I woke up today. I'll be honest and you know. Hey here you're right to be allowed to go somewhere else. I hate it here. The weather sucks on this it as social. There's no thank you social distancing. Okay we'll be. It's not such a right so you sit in my house at do nothing at. And if you're a parent you gotta teach and cook and chef and clean Because whatever you were farming out duties likely has now you know euchre tailed on that process right so you. You're wearing a lotta hats right. It's so it's easy to get frustrated for me. That's my point. It's so easy to get caught up in those things. I really try and go. I let me. Just knock out what i gotta do. But i'm not gonna program myself every day to listen to bad news. I'm not gonna scrapped murder porn every day. I'm not going to do that. But i'm also not gonna watch hallmark channel like my mom does with christmas every day. I mean sometimes you need somebody you know like right. If i how much i might be watching it right now. Let me say the lion guard. Which is the animated show on disney plus I'm having a ball last. Might need to get into that. They give it a recommendation. I i honestly. I watch a lot of light stuff. I really have enjoyed the. There's a lot of stuff that i like is part of. Why like the good lord bird because rather than take me down the journey the way i have seen it so brutally portrayed so many times this more though it has its violent aspect certainly but the tone of it is it dark now so it feels like to watch something like the good lord bird and i find myself gravitating towards that type of content and i feel rewarded in doing so. I'm trying to really apply that and that has made this time even in my music choices. Yeah I found that listening to that. Listen to ted talks. Listening to things that are inspirational has been a really good tool to use during this time that brings up. You know the good lord bird so first off. I mean how did this opportunity for this. Come about and what drew you to this project you know. I got a message that even hawk wanted to talk to me about the good lord bird and i was like the good lord why that sound familiar and of course. Oh yes the book. The critically acclaimed book. That yes okay. James bride awesome and i stood at dove back into it Refresh my memory of of what it was and then we started talking. And i think they were talking about another role at first or something in there was. I can't remember what the the agreement or disagreement was. I just remember ethan calling me saying no no. No you gotta be the rail man. You've got to be the rail man. So was he already care when he called you. Get the whole wild. I'd like he wanted me grandma while pointing all. There's always a little john brown there but i got i got the i got. I got onions. John brown. I love your wearing a skirt super nice. I have no problem with skirts. Those fine by me Ad he was really lovely and And that was really it. We talked about that and And next thing. I know we were you know on a set in the and we were doing knows that dodig got it and for those who are kind of new to the series like it generally centers around the story. John brown and his will failed raid on harper's ferry so was telling the story and being part of the storytelling and the other stories that are woven within but was telling the story personally important. You i think so look first of all i think we have to separate a couple of things out for me. Personally you know as a storyteller you know good lord Bride the way he tells threes his other books. You know. i'm a black male. Here's a black male storyteller. Who's telling stories that are steeped in research in history. But they're funny. They don't take a dim view. The characters themselves aren't victims. The characters have things that they're going through but they are not all Complacent and suppressed in the way that they behaved. so storytelling has always been excited to be. So james was always. I was like whoa. I'm gonna go get bring one of his books to live so that was just me. Check that box number one number two. It was frankly. You know i really. I've always been a fan of ethan hawke as an artist. as as a writer as producer You know where the first place when i ever had published for naked angels in. Ethan's part of that that that group I did a one act for them. when we did gunplay series about gun violence back in the day so you know it was just incredible to be reunited working with somebody who i knew from a theater. Company new york twenty five years ago and who has an artist. I have such great respect for so that was like checking them to number three. It was the rail man for me and vis stories unlike so many others because it kinda crosses a lot of lines did that. I feel like usually get manufactured. Get service really manufactured in a way by now. People are checking boxes because there's a diversity movements everybody's like oh. We talked to the lgbtq plus community to be talked to the black people checking boxes right but the stories themselves though generally have that in their dna. Well this did you know. Just an how onion becomes the his perception around him as a little girl and not as a little boy and his reasons for doing so and how that plays itself pal is not a gender politics Part of the story that was manufactured. In right it i. It's it's a part of the natural progression of the story to tell the story of how happen which to me is to tell text story right to me. That's what the rail man is. He's tech how did you. How did you get the message out during that period of time. When you're trying to rally people you've been a no twitter. There's no facebook. there's no telephone you've got mail. And the fastest locomotion is esteemed trade which stocks every fifty minutes to refill up on water. It has to be next to a water sorts. Like you don't think about how the underground railroad really worked right. You don't big about the wagon. that's following the train. It's going about the same speed is train that can be in the shadows so that you can actually transport humid's which are also transport mail and cargo and that a man is in charge of all that and frizz with the mayor and still has a family in bondage and it's still trying to give his family out of bondage but exercise a lot of power with very complex relationships where he is not purely subservient during a time where we only historians about as being slaves so for me. I'm like and where do i sign up. Because those are the characters that i find that i most like like to play because i am not as not against Ever say that. But i'm not as interested in playing characters Victims because i think that's the hollywood trope in the way that we often get portrayed so all that I jumped at it because i thought he's right i love this role in love the storytelling of it and and i love The precarious situation that end as a character that he john brown though he stands for an ideal that he believes in his coming forces. The rail man's timelines to get his family a to freedom and compromises that timelines so the real man you know he does not it. Don't go his way at the end of spoiler alert. Nobody's way those nobody's finding for. I think harkens itself back to a lot of the principles that we're talking about today. That's why people are protesting. Because they're saying i'm going to get out in the street. And i'm gonna make my voice heard because i'm not hungry for change i'm gonna put myself In harm's way be recovered. A what have you with. How people might respond to my being here at people doing that. Because i think they're hungry for change so exciting to tell a story I feel like the that the emboldens that story during this period of time. Because i feel like a. It's gotten a little preachy in. It's it's exciting to hear something that's funny and as such an incredibly diverse cast. Lets us laugh at you. Know part of our history but also let's see it clearer. Focus in and tonight in these in these binary roles this just. There's so much led the whether the black slave free where they might man. What if he made like the questions or so the game. And it's like i mean but it's never was human where she human in what. What were they trying to accomplish. What was important to them. What was the during that they were on to these characters be able to to To come to life in this way into how such rich source material in the book but to be played so beautifully by so many actors in the cast is really extraordinary on this show. So i mean it's kind of hard not to you know to wanna be a part of a project like this. You know i feel honored. Blessed men showtimes has been awesome. I can't you know i i find it. You know no matter what happens on the other side of the scene for the part that i care most about which is the art like. I was really excited about what i was able to do with mr nancy and play that character excited about being able to bring dr leeann base heading these crazy characters to life. This is for me yet. Another one where. I just try and you know. Focus on how to bring a character to life where no matter how crazy they are. You still can see some partner humanity right even with base head. You can see some part of his humanity there and all of his insanity and he's a fool because these face but for me that's always been to focus on. I don't care about the so much of what is in just kind of feel like that's where we all get painted with the same brush which no matter what disenfranchised group from right an i'm in i'm counting super skinny in super fat as disenfranchise as as disabled as i'm counting all sorts of things as enfranchised groups because we all get treated a certain kind of way because certain judgment may and i kind of feel like showing those characters as human despite their flaws is really the fun of of of the job to made it to to make you laugh but also see them as humid enough that you don't want anything bad to happen that character because despite how law day are you still can see yourself in and that means that maybe you won't look at somebody who looks doesn't look like you and that person doesn't agree with me because we don't share the same politics boom shoot them like no maybe you see them as human despite their flaw and we figure out how to work forward mick adding that we must see each other human. I'm standing on that principle. Glad you are yet. I'm not saying other people are but there's an old story. My dad is to tell me and i'll i will truncated it and it goes like this. Very famous. president was walking down the street walking towards him. There was this a woman and the woman had clearly been out all night. Makeup smeared probably living on the street. Maybe more attractive inaugur day. But she's seen rough times as she notices that it's president. She starts to giggle and the president tips his hat and he says belaid and she passes by two advisers. Go why did you call that person. Milady tip your hat like. She's clearly he said. I tip my hat because who i am. Not because of who she is. And i feel like it's an important principle to keep in mind. That real slavery is when somebody does something nasty and mean you respond this way because they did something nasty make that means that their actions control your actions. So that means you're a slave to wet baidu real freedom saying interesting choice. But i'm gonna do this. And i think that's one of the things that we miss but stores had. The good good were tell us is that that's the way our elbows approached life because they didn't approach life that way they could easily lose their life and then they wouldn't have the ability to provide for their children to the ones they love. They made these zach is his willingly understanding why they were making. But we don't look at sacrifices that way because we're so focused on the fury that we all necessarily have a plan way to manage the stupidity that we're dealing with but not to overvalue because that's stupidity doesn't stop you from accomplishing what you want to accomplish so for me. That's really what the good lord breads about. That's what frederick douglass was trying to tell you right. That's what that's speeches those speeches are ultimately abou- for you to grab hands. Grab your humanity with both hands and it's easy in a climate like today's and the climate of the forty fifty sixty seventies eighties nineties and two thousands. So this isn't new so let's stop acting like it is in march forward in a way that helps our children because bitching about a network You bring up an interesting point. Because once i started watching the series i started looking at some reviews and one of the first reviews that i've found someone said in this view about john brown and they said that he chop the head off of a slave owner and the person writing a review said most of us wouldn't agree with that or with his methods and i'm sitting there thinking to myself i don't i wanted to find his personal twitter immediately and i wanted to quote them. This and we'll let me tell you fam- i chop the head off a slave owners like there's something about recognizing humanity and there's also a thing about recognizing what someone has done to your standing for that side of it the idea that we're not talking about chopping off the heads of murdering slaves. So that part right yeah. That's what killed me. Hold up what do you need to slave. It was doing for the slave. I want to get into the i old testament version because as we know big change. But you know that's bill. This is reminiscent of the when they go low. You go hi kind of away and you make a plan. As which way you want to go. Live in low. John brown bob here why i make sure i go to. You know. that's that's the player. There is the most militant a four. We are for everyone. But that's the point where everyone who recognizes art humanity. We're not for appeasing anyone who doesn't and i'm not it's twenty two minutes i want you to recognize everyone's humanity. Yes i'm going to go crazy. I mean that's the problem. All we asked you for over here and it that seems to be an issue you know has so. I'm prepared to fight for that. This and and and and i'm. I'm sorry if my findings were that is offensive. Not really the okay with that and it does take me a while to come there. Because i think there's a real as i was raised catholic. There's a real guilt. The comes along with it. You know saying you know what. I'm not going to focus my attention on carrying out other people feel about my circumstances like these circumstances. So i'm just gonna deal mess circumstance but i'm not going to be. I'm gonna be mad at you because you don't like mice like what are we doing if you trying to circle cartoon argument is this and i do really feel like it's a cartoon argument now like i feel like you know i. I will post some size on social media stuff just to see what ignorance i get back. Mike It's not trolling the tolls. I'm tro landau. Of course if you have what. I posess meant to be click bait yousef about what's funny is you and another not the first time you've said that you you tell people directly but it just keeps working and not learn these lessons not learned over and over no because it's more convenient for them to pretend that i i believe extra i believe why and to try and hold me down to some statement like the world is static and everything's in place. Nothing's ever gonna change or move talking about the world this dialectic. It's always changing. It's always evolving. Things are always in motion. So you gotta be able to move with it. We're living breathing organisms and the more we learned in the more we fail Hopefully we get better at making choices or the more we repeat same stupid choices but whatever it is eight sane so i just kind of look at muslims from media like that i try because otherwise. What's the point. I mean i mean like i don't care about followers at all like that means nothing i before i mean i'm just looking for engagement. You know what. I mean at the end of the dan. Okay well considering. I mean you you brought up one of your characters Mr nancy from african god's representative of nazi the spider and you gave one of the most memorable and powerful speeches and tv. And it's something that we remember to this day because it was just it was just so blunt and so forceful but it was the truth so when and of course in. That seem that you gave that you were talking to slaves On a ship. So it's just interesting that kind of when you see this different justice position of your position as the rail man. What when you go from that character this is. What are your thoughts on how you approach that story like this story is still featuring a slave narrative if you will what. What are your thoughts on that. I think there are elements of what we call in. We know as the slave narrative that Sadly are not told. When i look at the olmecs and you start to look at the aztecs realize that fifteen hundred years before columbus even showed up here Black and brown people had settled this land and cultivated this land and figured out how to take little puffy pieces of white. Cotton from razor blade leaves And all of those skills that cultivated in made these civilizations came for black and brown people so the notion that we came here only as as sleighs post columbus is a crazy way to look at our own history. And it's also a really false way to look at the time if you if you look at who was coming to america then you know that many of those people were coming from western africa and many of those people were of the muslim faith so during the time that the founding fathers were here many of the people serving them living in their homes and working with them were people who are of the muslim faith on people who were the ashtec faith who come from the olmec history so my point is is that end those communications we we know that humans learn from each other. So we know that these principles that are put forth is purely european. Were not as such and so for me. That's where the rail man interesting story. I have seen many a slave narrative. I've just never seen one that showed me. You know a black man with fifteen keys on a ring running the most sophisticated technology of his day with no supervision to the point that he was also able to do that so efficiently that he was able to also be a pipeline to the underground railroad and thought so strategically but he was able to help spread. John brown's impossible message and a period of time. That was you know frankly couldn't get done. All of that required what we call the entrepreneurial spirit The operational the organizational spirit that that is a ceo if there ever was right in the flesh battling the exact same conditions from viewpoint that none of ever seen before. We just never seen it before. We've seen the guy in the fields but we've never seen the guy running the trains and talking with who's a part of functioning part of the decision making capacity of the city and of an enterprise right and how he's navigating like we haven't really seen frederick douglass his life until now really frederick. Douglass was a rockstar. The most famous abolitionist in the world but his household politics were fascinating. He was married to a black woman and he had a white mistress yet all the same roof now day. We wanna say that everything. Frederick douglass had to say it was irrelevant because they're people in our society that would say it's irrelevant because he had a white mistress. That is an argument. Many people will make. But they hold up frederick douglass his words not realizing your complicated politics of foods so for me. It just comes back into the same thing where that's where i feel like a good lord. Bird is not a slave story right. Because the rail man isn't auctioning as the slave during the times of slavery is family is he has components that suppress him but you know the pursuit of happiness is about a man who has components that suppress him in modern society and how those components took a toll on him and left him homeless now he had to get his life together to overcome but still boast stories are not different during the same time. So i look at both sides of stories and it's not about slave stories. It's about the narrative and how that narrative push you forward. The real man is not a victim. Frederick luckless is not a victim because he got himself out of slavery became the most successful rockstar speaker in the world. Certainly in north america and then put together a dynamic within his own hole that is fascinating to look at because frankly in that dynamic person with the least amount of power what was his white mistress Is the outward. Presentation was that she was subservient to and had to be in that household to his black wife. That's just the politics of that dynamic because outwardly. That's what the politics had to be so whether she liked it or not. There were times publicly that she had she had to go stand over there while while he stood over here and that again is the dynamic that we no one talks about even existing during that time and that she chose that dynamic is fascinating in its own right. So i kinda feel like. That's the part of our history that we never looked at. And that's exciting about something like the good lord bird because it forces us to see these people the things they said the lies they live. We we see them as human and realized that just because someone might hold the belief you disagree with doesn't mean you discount everything they say because what the person has it. Isn't we all know a racist. We all know a homophobic. We all know somebody who has a particular point of view. That's off we all do in there in our own family and we don't want anything to happen to those people we don't because we don't know them from capacity another from this place of love though telling those types of stories that they tell those complicated relationships to me during a time when things are so divisive. What have you you know. That's why arts about you know. That's what it is simone and james baldwin ultimately talking about which is how we use these tools and these gifts that connect us not how we use them to pull us apart. And you know. i'm. I'm grateful to be a workout stuff. That gives me that opportunity. And i think the good lord bird is a is a great example of that. So that's why. I see it that way and and and that's why i think it's a it's different in. Its in. its special like i. This is my first exposure to material was watching the series and didn't until i went and did some researchers have. I didn't know that it was so ever. And everything. And i was trying to even throwing me off i right. That was a little bit humor down. Well a lot of bit humid though a lot. A bit of humor and it also because like we've discussed roy lander. I'm i felt like the scene in america. Is i ever needed to see from save narratives. I'm not a fan of roots. I'm not a fan of you can run on the line so obviously it don't matter i hate them all with a passion underground and that scene. That's all i ever needed. And so even why. I enjoyed and i enjoyed your care especially because like you said. Here's this baller as dude one. I wanna give you props yet again because you came with yet. Another voice like i know you always slip the voice for all your cares and rail manslaughter with the ill voice okay. He wasn't joking he really does it every time. Real smooth smooth payment so i liked all that but i wasn't a fan of john brown. I'll be honest. I love ethan. Hawke you and all that but outside You know like. I don't care dude you know like i get it your whole our got up their heads off save. You know free to say's but on my everyone who looks like he was follow you on. You might be on but you also ended up getting a lot of black people killed you. Start something but you got people killed. And so i'm just like why is it that we always try to center on them. You know like. I get it edwin when onions on the screen when he came back on the screen and when not in the him dramatic. Who's supposed to be getting the damn house together. We could just messing it up on. Everyone what are you doing right now. South as but it's so slow. I mean honestly when you really you really put on the news right. Is it this what we're watching a bunch of idiots. We're watching a lotta comedy a confederacy of dunces. Going all right at me. I i am. I don't know. I think it's i understand your point of you. My dad shares your point of view. Right dad is like no. He's not at all our nets won her landau. You need them because but you know his point of view is that you know he. He's similar to you and that he doesn't necessarily want to see john brown narrate right right but what he has to give up. It is killing him but i love it is that he's also seeing these other. Historical black figures like fred regardless enlightening that. He's never seen before. Okay so he's like okay. Yeah i'll think that trade off. And i keep pointing out to him like you can say whatever you want but what you're really saying is that you don't like this black authors work because this is a black authors work whether you like it or not and this is the way he chose to render this story so you might not like the fact that he chose to use the harper's fair the raid on harper's ferry john brown as a way to tell this narrative through the eyes of this fourteen year. Old boy. right you might. That might not be something you like. I like as a fan of graphic novels and comic book. I just liked the fact that you come into the story in a shootout and then following the story from the point of view of somebody who had their family killed in the shootout because that's just a a traumatic place to begin the story but then to watch those characters evolve and develop a relationship to me is just the type of stories i like right because it's the right and i love the fact that james mcbride was able to get historic told so what i said to my dad is. I can't divorce myself from the fact as a black storyteller myself. That i sometimes will write a bunch of characters that are not just black at it. As the leads It is the servicing of all other characters. You get along with that. That i hope make something better than what the american gods experience was which was ultimately the theory scenario where nobody wanted to service those characters he did service those characters so for me a storyteller of color that servicing all of the characters irrespective of color. I have to celebrate that. I cannot not celebrate that i've must and at the same time i must point out the same time so many other stories that you and i love the characters. Don't get full service simply because they are the disenfranchise characters. Think we we've got to. I believe adjust our site on what we're going to say yes to what we're going to say no to because we're just going to get more of the same right. I wanna see more underground. I you knew. I was taking the nazi story. I know you were involved in the writing on gaza's bryan fuller. Mike agreed bents. I know you were in the room and no this intimately die right. I mean you know. I mean you don't have to say slew here. Yeah those guys a great. Those guys have or efforts. Are ryan fuller micro greg whiteley a slave speech in american gods or collaboration along with an incredible garam oh Our director is plankton. Journalist named this shameful sloppiness. At i will come up with it but my point is when i look at the collaboration of individuals responsible for that piece of content. It's it's really a bit of a rainbow coalition but it wasn't. It was all colors. And so i just think that when we say diversity what we really mean is storytellers it. Really no matter what color race sex they are even if they're white men storytellers that look at all the characters is human and therefore tell all the characters and invite you invite you and me and you tatyana and all of us into the process to make those characters better rather than making them in a way where you're telling us who they are and the great storytellers. The michaels michael and brian and james is of the world. All make collaboration so that you get i think. Work like the good lord bird. So i mean for me. I understand why might not be a cup of tea. But i'm gonna. I'm ryan to the end of time. 'cause this is the only time i was going to get to do to rail man. I wouldn't i asked. You is whenever you want. And you know they start boeing at one word around because there's a lot of that word. I'm sure ain't smiling. After they delivered the line you know. Damn i finally got to say what they might not have been violence orlando but there were some. I was like yo. He's a really slaying mustard on iraq. Listen it's it's no. It's no more or less than when i'm hanging out with snoop. Yeah that's no way. You know. I did out from word someone else on my nobody. Nobody can make in the word classic than obama. He's says it were it gets bonus points. It's just the way it is. I don't make imagine. Oh my god orlando you okay so i mean you have the good lord bird. I'll and you've been involved in. Drama comedy sci fi. I mean so many different genres. I just feel like is there anything john mara or so. You haven't been involved in that. You really absolutely want to do i. What must you do before you go onto the great beyond a half to do james baldwin. Oh damn i mean. I see it would be a mistake. Not only just his particular story. But also just i have a you know connection in my life in in that i am really studied him pretty extensively for in my senior thesis before i dropped out of college was a one man. Show of james ball so I for me you know him. and dick. Gregory are jest for me figures that transformed my life. I used to perform a dick gregory's book The n. word. That's what i perform for pros l. When i was doing a debate that was my piece so curt flood has always been somebody that i know. He's the father free agency Baseball player curt flood was the one that ultimately said you can't just hold onto my rights And tell me what team i'm gonna play for. He created free agency and as we all know. The number of millionaires. Free agency is just too is too many to two to name and no one knows curt floods name until you said it so. That's it though. Those that particular grouping of people i think is important And the last one from me is probably gonna ted. Patrick now know if you know his story these the father of colts deprogramming. Just imagine this. Incentives wow this guy. Had a bad stutter. Grows up in memphis. Tennessee is like can't stand medicine. Take my family might have here. He goes to san. Diego runs into the same sort of racism during the seventies starts organizing the workers in order to make big companies in california higher. Black people finds himself on. Ronald reagan's radar. Ronald reagan's like wow credible would've make this guy community liaison down in san diego. Ronald reagan hires in office job. He takes his family down to mission beach to the holiday inn. On fourth of july is son goes missing. Five days later. Sun shows back up. Won't leave the room. Totally different kids. No longer outgoing. No longer charismatic. You're sitting in this room. With the bible swiped calls you got come sons back. Problem bronze that his son got snatched by children of god. And when i say snatched he went voluntarily. Because they don't really grab you they. It's a conversation with friends they invite you. He spent seventeen hours in the room with this sign until he d programs. Deprogramming is son. Sons dad i have friends that are there to now. Those families who've gone to law enforcement on the lawyers kit turn eighteen no longer no longer. A child has right to make his own choices. So the cultural always looking for seventeen euros on the cusp hanging out at the beach. The end of the story is ted. Patrick ends up deprogramming over two thousand people dam and he would snatch them take them off to a room to a place somewhere and not let them out until he had deprogrammed and he did that in conjunction with the families. He became enemy number one for the colts and they systematically came together and sort of got rid of him and remove him. His story is fascinating. Because patrick is eighty eight years old lives in san diego. Still alive. Still believe they're living next door to him. Still rights to sitting presidents trying to explain to them has been doing this for years to say. Hey you can't be isis. You can't be is all those are colts. They're using the cult handbook. You can only d program. You don't understand what you're fighting. That's ted patrick story. That guy is alive. It's a fascinating story so to me. Those stories are the are the things that i really feel like. I wanna get done and then there's a bunch of graphic novel crazy stuff That you know that is more in the action graphic novel comedy world. Where i just kinda wanna talk about relationships. I just feel like the relationships of male female relationships stories of love where people are just they no matter how bad it goes they ride with each other no matter what i just feel like a missile stories where two people love each other and it's all going haywire. They're making bad decisions and it's fine it's crazy but at the core of it. They've just made that commitment to one another. And i look at the kind of things that i feel like. I gravitate to in terms of visit producers storyteller. Then it's usually stuff like that all right awesome well you have survived to interview segment. But you know you've been here before so we've got the headman we know we're running with. We're gonna keeping week with these rapid fire questions couple of new ones that out that you heard the last time you were here. So hopefully yeah. It's been a minute. So yeah no these a brand new all right Let's see who is your first geek. Crush birth geek crush This pam grier count out. Tamsir does see. Bread is not. But i did get ready months for me. I just like all of that. All of the energy right. Yeah those are the women in the house with me. I recognize her right at in life. Okay comic books are hit pop. The entirety of the history of that medium has to go. Which one do you choose. The entire history of that medium has to go all of it everything and never out the world. You have to choose one. Comic books are hip hop correct. So sorry comic books. I can't i know i know. I can't listen if you true hip hop head and you go back to the basics the basics We're gonna we're gonna go back to cool heart. We go back to red alert Africa africa bam. We go back to your With us about. I gotta stand with that. No problem sir die. Oh what character. Death hurts you the most in any medium. Oh hurt me the most. Yeah man. That's a tough one. I always. I'll tell you what my joke went is. Okay is the dude. And because it's the one. I always think about. It's the it's the black dude in on jurassic park. Who is that you're talking about. Oh one who goes. I say real similar squatty got like that. Oh okay this random indiscriminate black same. You're on aug like horribly. He lives. I say rio and keenan ivory like mexico correct. That's a good one though. That's a good way. I both and this the last one if you and you can stated up this time but if you can have any one superpower what would it be. Oh my goodness one superpower. I would like a superpower. I used to have. I don't have it anymore. We'd like to be visible. All when i got that. Were saying i remember. When i was invisible i could stand in a room and people did not care that i was there and they would just totally be themselves. Say what they want to say that whatever it was is got this really clear picture of who people work you know. I mean they care that you were that and then as life goes on you get older or whatever you know all the elements fame. All those men is no longer the invisible person in the room. And i miss that because my character creation is heavily based on the most of my life where i was invisible in the room and people were just themselves like yeah i i remember this person when they were totally nasty and also i know people who i knew they were totally completely different people and i know now and they're not the same people they were I mean that's also been interesting thing. I'm like oh i could talk about. I can totally go off on how bad that how what a jerk. That person is right but the person they are now is not the person they were when i was visible and room. They've actually grown up and changed since then That's been a weird thing too because it's really made me. You know you know. Look at it differently. I remember when that person was like. Wow and now i see that person in Is completely different. Like whoa Wonder what that person ultimately went through to make that change. But i saw that change happened. But i miss being visible been visible writing all right. Well thank you orlando. Thank you for joining us today. Please let the internet. Snow can find you at you. Know the troll endo himself at the orlando. Jones is where i be. Hope the ceo s. del hurry come. Which role landau that. What we do. I'm progressive retinal buna. This is my name's king albert alexander to assad and you're listening to i'm listening. I'm listening to listen. Keep listening to. We are listening to and welcome back and thank you. Mr orlando jones for once again joining us here in the spaceship tonight always purifier. Yeah i told the story on the show before. But i didn't get him to tell us again. How one time me and orlando. We're in la having dinner with mela marketer was there mellow yep and we're all sitting there having dinner in this dope blow vegan spot And somebody walks up to the table while we're eating in his like your her jaw hawk and are you. Dj benami true story all walked up and out of the table. You are a star just saying but out of everybody. Table was like dj body so listeners. Her and her boyfriend. I can't remember their names. I picture on instagram dough. And i'm a yeah and you know this is what i'm saying with qatar. Invite ooh but orlando will always emphasize it. She saw me. I was you know. Yeah and he was much much more detail than me. But yeah this like. That's so funny. You felt like you the you the more famous one matt really really. I've a more famous voice now really not really interesting because orlando switches up his voice in every episode in every show he does so his his natural speaking voice a lot of people might not know israel she her job i got say he has a very distinctive to like. Nobody looks like there's no way. Because like i said i was like. Oh yes she's sitting there looking at me. And then i'm like yeah and look who i'm sitting with. And she turns and sees him and then you know she lose she flips. Yeah i know who's the famous people people off me. There's a there's a difference. I've been around enough tv and movie stars like i said i've told the story before but not on here like when i met you law. 'cause i never even thought jude law was attractive always liked. What do people seeing this. Do you know that dude is fucking handsome. The thought is i like. Oh god damn. I get it. You know what i mean it was. It was on the rolls. Yes see why you get all the paper bro. You know it's a it was on. The captain marvel set. And so brie larson. I'm like okay. You're a goddess. What's the name who the asian woman who is in that stunning from chris. Rich agents stunning and then german dj montjeu zoom giant hansson. Driving home sue lenzi batmans. Cheekbones are like from granted. Like it's ace the bone structure. I'm just like okay. I get i get it. Yeah i get it. Yeah you know. Yaw are handsome. And i i might be. You know looking good on a good day and you were referring to gamma chan chan. So sweet such as reading and to breathe much. She is like such a sweetheart but do not fuck with that woman. But you know what's more famous than all of that Action to bring it back around a light day. Yes the geek. When the aspiration for we answer any and all questions from any and all listeners all they all hit us up contact for owners. Cow clock lives matter lives matter. Please support us. We need questions from some. You know some are women women's listeners. You know some of our others listeners. You know some of all aliens listeners. You know if you are down ause you know. Hit us up. Ma you gonna say yes. Contact former com or instagram or twitter. At four all nerds. And what do we ever i tonight. I comes from and and posed by mispronounced it. It's rayo araya radio. I'm not sure yeah. I don't know. I'm sorry this telephone but anyway. Yeah ray aka lemon pepper potts faulkner growl. That's dope like de incredible. I mean come on was fresh all right lemon pepper wet okay. So the question goes. I recently started watching titans on. Hbo max and i was wondering if you guys have watched any episodes i love that. They cast our fire as a black woman and the show is pretty interesting. Show is a pretty interesting. Take on the titans young justice franchise. I know you mentioned the show in what seems like forever ago but i was just curious about what you thought about it much love. I fell off after the first season. I got like three or four episodes of the second season and just fell off. I can't lie. Only actually any only watch a couple of episodes. But i was also really pleased. Anna joep as star fire but That's all i got. I do. I mean they did. They did do a good job up to what i saw. They did do the job. And and and i thought it'd be great but by key fell off in and got mixed up and some other stuff so and if you go our youtube channel you can see me interviewing pretty much. The entire cast the entire cast. What year ago now two years ago now it was a while but way way might be three three camping comecon inbetween that. Oh my god point. Is ben interview. The entire cast of of titans on way before they were on dc universe. Max or anything. This is leading up to really fire interviews Again i think that was one another interview where we finessed. It definitely phonetic. We weren't going to speak at all then people yet but it was so. That's most legendary finis legendary. What if y'all go to youtube and watch those interviews. You are watching a legendary finesse finesse in progress. I mean just like a stunning bemis means camera person. I'm looking over my shoulder. Oh we're gonna do this in the news like we did it and who goes that me. Yeah man yeah that me but but before for a good call so definitely watch those videos and that being said we both fell off the quite enjoyed the show while we were watching it. Yes okay This is from wide blue. Wait a why booth. Why all this this this fam- this is. Fans booed y y aka travis. Spock i guess. Travis scott yes not bad. It'd be. I mean it's like the more you think about it more like an artwork travis. Scott to spot. That'd be firefox. This this idea every okay. The question goes name a movie and a song. You would associate name a movie and a song you would associate that movie with. Oh like do the right thing would be fight. The power public enemy. Oh so you hear the song you think about the movie. Okay oh what do you call from penny wit a hole in it They say i'm hopeless. From the love jones soundtrack who is I can't remember the name of that singer. That's my jam. The something that one year. I'll man and i don't know why but the matrix popped in my head and i was thinking about that song club to death by robbed ubin like that that they use that song and so many different things song. Car commercials all sources ship. But when you hear that. When i hear that i think of the matrix This is a great question. But i don't know why now i'm joined links besides that okay. Another random woman is aw. Emc christmas in hollis. Whenever i hear it. I think of a diehard because at the beginning of the movie when he gets into the limo with argyll argyll pop set in and so was rocking. And he's like. Don't you have any christmas music. He's like this. is christmas music. Come on a real easy one. The top of my head Was it planes featuring m. I a four pineapple express film like paper yup express oh More reason that's a great question mauricet and pineapple express reason. I'm trying to think of some recent where i'm like. Ooh i mean the fetus. Is older is another. One is a reservoir dogs but after much any tarantino film when he uses a song. If i liked that movie it becomes associated with that. You know by all all the sound cues from like kill bills. Are those from other movies and other songs. But they've now been covered associated with you know. Kill bill for me. That's the thing. I think i remember soundtracks more sold than that song that he's like the score of film as opposed to any. Anybody played my favorite. I mean this. Isn't that reason but catch-me-if-you-can soundtrack only it's so fire but what about like sunflower for. Yeah of course. Of course from g i hear me i immediately. Yeah immediately yeah i can't. Yeah it's magical great one. Yeah okay. that's a great question though. Okay the next one. What's good fan fan. This is maize maize here echo a juicy j five juicy j part you got me fan okay. Purple neither of us knows it. S terrible purple rain ger but a spell of rain so editor. Okay that that is asked them. You should stop right there if he gets do anymore. Through the next gonna stay little. I'll set it the next one. Scottie pippen oh my dog hawaii tom. And then the last one is m bison tiller instead of bryson tiller. Oh my god. You're just not feeling any of this. I'm sorry fair. Mutual birthday last week. But you know. I guess you had too much hand or something. Ooh i mean. That was my bed. It's not at all until are you have to think bryce until if you don't then it doesn't make any sense. Yeah and it's too long and no and it's also delivered five in a row. Is i go with the free throw line. I mean like didn't even hit the backboard five-time straight and the airballs. No not yet. I mean not even airballs airballs like you're close may shooting at the other room on the upside of the man and then clumped one off the side of the room. Okay you don't have to drag him know what he sent them in. Come on daddy. Pinton ways the ferrall maze. If you know is what though don't don't do this. We might have somebody dragging because it's wasting people's time okay. Goes what would you say is the biggest misconception. Most people tend to have about you as a person and has there ever been a time. Someone has had the correct assumption about you. Peace and love. Now you're aka notwithstanding this fabulous question is no. This is actually really did. Because i actually deal with this long right. Do few things. The biggest misconception concept shown that people have about me tatyana king is that i mean that i'm bitchy because i have resting bitch is like that i didn't do you. You're used to me. A lot of people have told me that was like oh. You're just know i didn't think i was gonna like let me get within two feet of you. People are maybe. I just have that look like i don't wanna fuck with nobody. I'll know but people. I would say that i say you have to look on my own. Good lead me on good. That's a capricorn me but it's true. I'm good meal if you if you i mean. It's colbert now. But if you do see me please say hello. I'm not mean whatsoever i can be though misconception. Oh another misconception. Is especially like when i'm dressed up stuff that like. I guess i'm just some regular property fashion girl that don't care about nothing else. I don't know what to call that. Like basically what. I get all the time like when we for example when we do when you and i then we go and do like a Like we do an interview together. We're on camera. People like yo. You don't like someone who likes narrates i've been witness to it. They were like oh come. Even people who are our friends our friends at the shelter. I saw you. And i thought like you know they say that to me like oh. I thought he was just like this fashion girl. And like you weren't into this life. Yeah really about this life and stuff like that And also i got vice versa too so the people who have known me to be very early i guess they like. Oh i know you was a hit. Join us into del-kosha tm. And i'm like look naked. Stop playing with me. Like i'm very multifaceted. I like a lot of different things so and it has there ever been a time. Someone has had a correct assumption about you. Know all right I think for me when i was younger. Definitely got us like especially at howard. And then i think even passed our. I've been told us all the way up to even when i was locked up a lot of people say about me i have basically two faces. I have either. Which is i die. I actually have it saved in my gif. older on. my phone is offensive. You we were on again. We were on an interview together. That was a right. Tv and you just had this look like everybody in this room to die and yourself very much and people were killed. People would say. I remember people saying you know howard right so they come out of fine arts and i'd stand in front of fine arts and i just look over the yard and people would be like yoda's like they knows is so angry and you know me i'm highs for ya. I'm probably boasted right in. You know like. I'm coming out of class. I'll probably smoke right foot last. i'm still roasted. i'm in there rose it you know. I'm looking at the shorties. I'm thinking of music or some shit. And i'm just offer my own water. I'm thinking about a movie that's always. I'm always been like this. But so. that's a big misconception. Have these two faces either laughing or die you know and that is my two. That's it for me pretty much. And so people get this misconception. Meet at they see the die face. They think you know. I'm just what you know. And i think there's a lot of it a think the misperceptions how i look again. Because it's something that i'm not i'm cognizant of i am but i'm not i don't i wouldn't say take advantage of it but it's just not something that occurs him in my daily thought like i remember when i would tomorrow. My mom's office at work in her friends would be like. Oh your son is really handsome. As i got older. You know i was a especially as i went through adolescence chubby dork. You know i mean shoulder and it was before doors were cool. You know i was really weird address. Well all that stuff. So that's always been who i am in my head. I don't six feet tall when people hear me talk you got to depend on what i do because i in my head i hear. Is you know my little twelve year voice. You still hear the still here young men to me. I still feel like on being you know. So it's site. That's a misconception that people think that i'm just like and also because i dj and all that but that light there's a confidence for me at least that comes from being behind turntables. But when i'm not buying turntables. I'm just like i'm telling you noticed. I don't know people have the by thinking you've seen that too and people come to me on the street and stuff. It's like this. Weird thing to me ron dog you know like i don't think of myself as the way people who listen to this show and i've noticed. Yeah i've noticed that like i. Dj for long time. And i never got the reaction that i got from people who listen to this show by people. Listen to show our. I like to call my friends. But they're fans of mine in a different way than people were me as a dj. You know or at least anyone that i've ever met. I know people who were like that. But i've never met them and talk to them. You know but i've met a bunch of people were like. Oh my god when they meet me. And i'm like and i'm not. I'm doing it because of the showing on my dog. I we do a chest. You're like i'm a weirdo apart. You know and. I'm a super weirdo. I'm aware to why do you care. I'm the man who went into store today and bought the mandalorian Star figure and then. I'm mad because they depend out destroyed when i'm out to call forbidden planet tomorrow and be your home. That pimped out. I don't know why by the man walked around brooklyn in a tobacco. Onesie eighteen hours so no problems. She was so great our felt liberating and it was something like i had to be forced into doing it. So thank you you know who you are forced me into doing it. And i went out on in this boxer uniform. And i'm walking on the block and the very first persons whose sees mrs brother on the corner. Your fam- how you got to paco. One see how you got. The wookey. Onesies get their progress. Brazi he gassed. You was loving it. You know like i we go to the park. We all around. I come back around. You know walking back up on the blog and my boys on the block resi. Ac become a down and one from sophomores yellow matched. i won't question. answer this bed for me. Are you a working or you. Andy walker tells you you've had your own misconceptions about the people go even know even be into it. I mean i would know that they do not in any old black those star wars in some form or another. Don't you know they might but they they know they know okay. Yeah no that's a great question as you may know for you made it for your ass you gotta get. You gotta get better with this stuff. It's like look at yourself in mirror and say may not today. It's not but no we love you. We appreciate it and thank you to everyone who put in the wok this week. If you have a question it could be a bow. Is that a walker to baca tight. It could be about polka four. We care or it could be about something in the real world could be something in your life. Whatever hit us up contact at four nerds dot com. That way you can email us. Get a little bit more privacy. If you need more space for a longer question otherwise you can hit us up on the interwebs on our socials at for owners and per usual to the very very very very very very very special fan fan. If you are on a specialty on our on as patient on dot com slash for all nodes you get a guaranteed guac question. No matter what let us know hit us up word up and thank you to everybody on that. Page on dot com slash for all nerds. Thank which allows us to do all this great stuff like were you can see our beautiful faces on twitch dot tv slash for honored every week every wheel to check us out. You quite literally kept us in business throughout the pandemic fast bam. I'll be real. I've not dj since february like maybe three events since february And none of them to my saying here too. yeah ain't seen none of that though So yeah so thank you. Pay on cobbs for all nerds. Thank you to everybody. Who sets us out on twitch dot tv slash ron and anybody who tips over there. You know hits bits and all that stuff because everything helps t public dot com slash stores last for all nerds so you can get all of this merge is don't want on sale for the holidays we bought the bid sale. I think i'm going to have to put on that. Infinity shirt wanted me infinity. I i was worried about people having my face on materials way but which affinity share. What you on the one. Where i'm holding the mug and repeating view we're gonna put that design up for a limited time. Only that one's going off after christmas. I'm here on the same thing. Get trump vanity shirt. Yep yeah we got two nice so we had that that'll be our incident new year and beyond our infinity shirts that oh that marketing we learned so much but yeah for real. Y'all definitely appreciate you. Said really actually really really really important that you continue to be down with us on twitch watching again like you said do the bits bits. You don't care for the best at least chat with us You know if we do in livestream make sure you're there make sure you're commenting on all of our posts and stuff sharing those. That's a big deal sharing and all right so like like we know you're there but let us know you're there yes. Especially on. The twitch stream your. We missed a halloween in two thousand. But we almost there. I'm going to wear outfit. It's amazing i will do like several livestreams than it. You know we let determine however many are want me to do our care two thousand twitch dot tv slash four on right now it stop on this. Podcast is almost over anyway twits not slash rose owner.

seventy degrees biden mr nancy howard university john brown dj benami tatyana keen jones kalaw John brown Peter parker baymax Lebron shame Charlie brownish tagami tatyana king lambeau rizzi beretta scott king ten year new york georgia danny law
Ep 50 Antibiotics: We owe it all to chemistry!

This Podcast Will Kill You

2:03:40 hr | 11 months ago

Ep 50 Antibiotics: We owe it all to chemistry!

"This is exactly right. I've remembered the astonishment when the first cases of PNEUMOCOCCAL and streptococcal septicemia treated in Boston in Nineteen thirty seven. The phenomenon was almost beyond belief. Here were more patients who would surely have died without treatment improving their appearance within a matter of hours of being given the medicine and feeling entirely well within the next day or so the professionals most deeply affected by these extraordinary events. Were I think the interns the older physicians equally surprised but took the news in stride for an intern? It was the opening of a whole new world. We had been raised to be ready for one kind of profession and we sense that the profession itself had changed at the moment of our entry. We knew that other molecular variations of Sultan Alam. Melamine were on their way from industry and we heard about the possibility of penicillin and other antibiotics. We became convinced overnight that nothing lay beyond reach for the future. Medicine was off and running. No no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no own load fat. I got chills reading it. Oh that's very cool. I I really. I searched high and low to try to find. Maybe my search terms off but I wanted to read like a whole collection of doctors who were using penicillin and sulfur melamine and other antibiotics or the very first time because that was such a revolution right. Oh my Gosh Hi. I'm Aaron Welsh and Aaron Update. And this is this. Podcast will kill you. We are thrilled about today's episode absolutely thrilled today. We're talking about antibiotics. Yes like. It's a huge topic to massive. It's too massive and so just like we did with vaccines episodes. Were splitting into two separate episodes. And so this week. We're talking about antibiotics themselves. How they work how they were developed and sort of what the current status of antibiotics today and we are very excited to bring on a very super cool researcher who does super cool work antibiotics. That's very true. Super Super Cool so stay tuned for that and the next episode. We're going to talk about Antibiotic Resistance Right. And how resistance works the history of Resistance Cetera. And then hopefully other super cool guest. Yeah it's it's such a huge topic and I think too. I mean everyone wants to know what's going on with antibiotic resistance because that's like in the headlines. It's a big deal. But in order to understand antibiotic resistance you have to understand antibiotics. And so that's what this episode is about. Plus antibiotics are cool as heck. They're so cool. Like I am legit very thrilled for the episode because I also like I know the history obviously from reading about it. But there was only little glimmers of insight into how they worked in the history book. So it's really cool. I can't wait to go over it. Well first of all before. We can fully express our excitement about antibiotics. We have some business to take care of of course first of all. It's quarantining time. Of course Gordon teeny time. We're drinking this week. Very appropriately. The drink called penicillin so we didn't cope with this recipe. Inventing the wheel here because we don't need to because this is such an excellent cocktail on its own. So what is in the penicillin? It is Scotch which we haven't done a Scotch Corentin iw for a very long time. He's in one I think actually so and I like Scotch like I don't know why we've avoided it so much it's not intentional. And then honey ginger syrup and lemon juice super simple and we will post the recipe for that quarantine and the Non Alcoholic Placebo Rita on our website. This podcast will kill you dot com as well as posting it on social media channels And then we have one more little bit of business and that is related to our last normal season episode on eastern equine encephalitis and one of the things that we discussed was why horses experience such a higher mortality rate and first of all air and we really need to get a vet on here. That was our yep one hundred percent in the future. We promise so. A veterinarian reached out to us to kind of shed. Some light on our question about how horses have higher mortality rates and so they reached out to other equine specialists in that community and got a general consensus for that answer. Ooh Are you ready to hear? It's it's ready pretty interesting. Okay so this is a quote from the email. It's not well known whether there is a difference in the immune response between species but most likely the increase mortality and horses is related to the difficulty in providing nursing care to a one thousand fifteen hundred pound recumbent animal and the issues that occur from the horse being down so like pneumonia pressure sores. Self Trauma are also dangerous to work around when they are neurologic and having seizures and even if the horse recovers most people cannot afford to support. Animal has continued neurological deficits. And we'll never be ridden again right. Yeah so because Tripoli causes these neurological logical deficits and so it seems to be that euthanasia is often sort of what must be done for some of these cases so there you go awesome so yeah thank you so much for reaching out and sending us that information. Yeah very interesting all right now. That's out of the way. That's talk antibiotics please. I can't wait. We'll take one quick break. I there are other ways to use your phone to escape from reality besides instagram and twitter like the Fun Puzzle. Game best scenes. It's a fun escape. From the every day I love playing best fiends to collect all of the adorable little characters. I think they're actually. They've become for sure. My favorite part of the game absolutely and also. I love the regular game but the Little Mini Games are Super Fund. Because it's just like okay. Here is an achievable goal. I can do best. Means is unlike any other puzzle game out there. The update the game monthly with new levels and events so it never gets old. I think we're now in Memorial Day parade and you don't eat Internet to play so you don't need to worry about Wi fi access or using your cell data best has thousands of levels already with new levels events and characters added every month. It's hours of fun right at your fingertips and you can even play off line with over one hundred million downloads and tons of five star reviews. Best fiends is a must play download. Best fiends free on the apple APP store or Google play. That's friends without the our best scenes as we all know it is so important to eat right and daily harvest makes it easy though. Keep Your House and Your Fridge. Fully stocked with food built on whole fruits and vegetables. Daily harvests delivers delicious. Clean food right to your door. You don't have to over. Think any of your meals for the week because they have delicious options for every time of day from smoothies to soups harvest bowls. They even have flat breads now. What flat breads flat? Breads and daily harvest. Never uses preservatives. Added sugar or artificial ingredients. They work directly with farms. And they freeze organic fruits and vegetables at peak ripeness to lock in nutrients and tastes. Daily harvest is also committed to minimizing their environmental impact. So they're in the process of transitioning to one hundred percent compostable recyclable packaging and our over fifty percent of the way. They're already awesome that's awesome. I love their smoothies. They make for such a great easy breakfasts and especially now that it's warmer out. It's phanom their smoothies are my favorite thing to wake up to seriously. They're like super refreshing. I feel like okay now. I have a way to start the day instead of just a bellyful of black coffee which is frankly how. I usually do it if you'd like to try. Go to daily harvest DOT COM and enter Promo Code this podcast to get twenty five dollars off your first box. That's Promo Code this podcast for twenty five dollars off your first box at Daily Harvest Dot Com daily harvest dot com. Obviously we've already said. This is a massive topic. So here's how we're going to break it down when we talk about the biology of antibiotics. I we have to talk about bacteria right. Yes of course we have to understand what bacteria are how we classify identify them and then we can kind of understand we can start to understand how we target those back. Tirrenia using antibiotics right. I'm very excited. I love bacteria me Metoo. And what's really about this? Is that all of our other episodes. Where we've covered a bacterial pathogen kind of gloss over a lot of this part of it so this is kind of like you'll understand more about many of our past episodes now if you anyways okay. Let's get into it all right now. What is a bacterium? It's a single celled procure. Yada something I'm K- Yep Yep Yes then. That's the first question I guess we have to answer the term It's not a great term but we still use it because it's still useful. It's basically how we separate bacteria and Archea from eukaryotes which is plants and animals and fungi. All right so. Let's talk about some of the differences between the cells of procreates and eukaryotes so ourselves for example are basically bags of water right and these little bags of water surrounded by a membrane. This membrane is made of Lipids. Which are fats? And they have some proteins interspersed in there. Okay inside of our cells so human cells animal cells plant cells fungus cells. We have things called. Org anals which are also bound by membranes so they have little lipid membranes around them and those carry out all of the functions of Oursel- okay and that includes in ourselves a nucleus which is where all of our DNA is. That's our genetic material. Bacterial cells are a little bit more simple. So there's still a bag of water. Okay they're still surrounded by a lipid membrane but here's one of the first differences inside of that bag of water. There's no other organs sales There's just a little round piece of DNA and then a bunch of bribe's homes which are essentially ornate in protein mixed together. And then the other. Big Difference between bacterial cells and animal cells. Is that on the outside of their plasma membrane that Lipid Membrane they have a cell wall. Okay that's a big huge difference and it's really important because anywhere that there is a difference between bacterial cells and human cells for example that means we can use that as a target to kill those bacteria so now. Let's talk about the that we classified these bacteria. Were not going to get into like evolutionary relationships. Because that's way beyond my capacity what we do want to talk about though is the way that we can classify bacteria in order to identify them so that we can choose the right antibiotics to use to treat them. Okay all all right so one of the very first way's and this if you've ever heard one of our podcast episodes you've heard me say these words we can. I classify a bacteria by is it gram positive or gram negative right and normally. I just say that means it's pink or purple on. Mike actually means a whole lot more than that. Yes it does. So let's actually define what that means okay so gram staining when we say the term gram stain. This is a tool that we use to visualize bacteria under the microscope. And basically what you do. Is you mix two different. Dis You put a purple dye over a bunch of bacteria and then you wash that purple die off and then you put a pink die on okay. and what happens is that purple dye gets stuck on the cell walls of these bacteria. Remember I said. Bacteria have cell walls around their membranes. So if bacteria take up that PURPLE STAIN IN THEIR CELL WALL. Then they're what we call gram positive if they don't take up that purple stain then they'll look pink under the microscope because they'll take up that pink stain and those are what we call gram negative all right because they don't pick up that gram stain. So what is the difference between these gram positive and gram negative bacteria there so walls their cell walls so they both have cell walls that are made of the same basic stuff and that is generally a substance called. Pepito glide can This is something that ourselves. Don't have right okay. So it's very different than eukaryotic cells but gram positive. Bacteria have a really thick layer of this pepito glacken and it sits right outside their plasma membrane and then that's the end. There's nothing else. Okay gram negative. Bacteria have a thinner layer of this Can and then on the outside of that cell wall they have another membrane And this membrane is made usually if something called life. Oh polysaccharide L. P. S. That's not as important but it's basically another barrier between the inside of that bacterial cell and the outside world right so that's a really huge and important difference because these cell walls they act as kind of like an exoskeleton almost right they give the bacteria its shape and structure but they also in the case of gram positive bacteria. They're fairly permeable to small molecules. Okay so a lot can still get in and out of gram positive bacteria that just have this Cell Wall gram negative bacteria on the other hand have an extra membrane on the outside so it's harder for things to get in and out the way things get in and out of those cells is by little proteins that are along the surface called poor ins going and guess what they do their pores channels making the okay. We're really creative here. In naming okay so those are gram positive versus gram negative. Bacteria importantly some bacteria have entirely different cell walls so they might not take up either of those pink or Purple Stains Raden. So that's something like Mycobacterium tuberculosis that. We've talked about a lot right right all right Erin. Other ways that we classify bacteria that we've talked about a lot. We can look at their shape. Are they round? Are they rod shaped are they. Little spirals okay. This is helpful when we are trying to identify specific bacteria again because the antibiotics that we're going to use we WANNA make sure target the right bacteria so that they're actually effective and then the other thing that we can look at is. How aware do these bacteria live? Are they aerobic? Meaning they need oxygen in order to survive or are they anaerobic meaning. They can't live in the presence of oxygen like clostridium botulinum that we talked about recently so those features of bacteria are common across pretty much all bacteria so one thing that's important to keep in mind with antibiotics is that depending on the antibiotics you use. They might be killing a lot more than just the pathogen that you're targeting right right and so I think when we say bacteria or think of bacteria I think we're a lot of us are used to thinking of pathogenic bacteria right and so instead of saying oh well the the pathogenic bacteria we say bacteria and assume it's going to lead to an infection or death but as we have increasingly become more aware in the past thirty forty years or so. There's you know. Humans animals plants have a microbiome. And so these are bacteria that made themselves not be pathogenic or they may be opportunistically pathogenic but they are also an unintended target of of antibiotics and that can lead to issues yes. The vast vast vast majority of bacteria are not pathogenic. It's a very small subset of bacteria that are actually able to colonize infect and cause illness in animals plants etc so and it's kind of a whole separate topic like what those specific mechanisms are that allow for bacteria to make us sick and we kind of touch on those when we talk about specific bacteria rain right all right. So those are bacteria so hopefully you stand now listeners. How they are different from our cells because those differences are what we're going to exploit to be able to use antibiotics to kill those pathogenic bacteria All right so. What is an antibiotic? We don't how to do the Etymology of this right. Like anti bio anti life. Okay easy pretty easy. Pretty straightforward so antibiotics are generally low molecular weight so really small molecules that have the action of either killing or halting the growth of bacteria originally the term was specifically for compounds that are produced by other living organisms. Was the intention but then it sort of. Now it's been. It's been more widely expanded as synthetic antibiotics have been developed. Isn't that interesting interesting aright? So I've said this a couple of times already but when we're thinking about antibiotics we have to make sure that they're specifically targeting bacterial cells and hopefully not causing too much damage to animal cells our cells and so we tend to target things that are specific to these bacteria and then the other thing is that understanding. The mechanisms specific mechanisms of action of these. Antibiotics can tell us not only. What groups of bacteria? They're likely to work against. But also how antibiotic resistance can eventually evolve all right so in general there are four broad picture ways that we target bacteria in order to kill them with antibiotics. These four are we can target their cell wall synthesis right right. We don't build a wall. You can't exist. Yeah that's not true for humans but true for bacteria we can target their DNA replication. And you might say but hearing. Don't human cells also replicate their DNA? And you'd be right if that's what you said but we'll talk about some differences. We can target their protein synthesis. Which again ourselves of course make protein. But there are some differences in the way that bacteria make protein and the way that we make protein and then we can also target some specific elements of bacterial metabolism. That are very different from animal and plant metabolism. Right so those are the four major targets. Let's get into the nitty gritty showy. We shall so cell wall synthesis. I said this most bacterial cell walls are made of Pepito Guy. Kim and this is a substance that animal cells don't produce the way that bacteria make these cell walls is they have to make chains of Pepsi doglike and then they have to cross link those chains together in a specific way in order to build a strong wall. It kind of is similar to the way that we make Collagen in our bodies. If you remember the episode right so if you can mess up the way that Cell Wall Cross links then you basically make an ineffective cell wall but you're peeling apart the appeal to whistler. Yes exactly just like that so it turns out that the Beta lack Tam antibiotics which include penicillins the most famous. I can't wait for you to tell the story of Penicillin Aaron. It's a good one. It is penicillin CEPHALOSPORIN. 's You probably heard of Carbon panams and mono back domes. All of these are Beta lack. Tim Antibiotics they target a very specific part of this cell wall synthesis. They blocked the enzyme that capitalizes that cross linking reaction. Okay so it's really similar to the scurvy situation if you don't have vitamin C. You can't cross link Collagen to make your good Collagen if you block this enzyme. You can't cross link Pepsico Guy. Can you can't make cell wall right so it turns out that we named this enzyme a penicillin binding protein. There's a bunch of different penicillin binding proteins a lot of different versions of these enzymes. And they all do. The different steps of Peptide can assist in cross linking in slightly different ways so we have a variety of different. Beta lacked him antibiotics. That can target the different processes that makes sense so knowing that Beta Thames Block Cell Wall Synthesis. What types of bacteria are? They most likely going to be able to be really effective against GRANDPA's right because gram positives. Have that cell wall right there and it's a really really important to them. So Beta lacked hymns historically are really really good at treating gram positive infections like strep like staff etcetera okay. gram negative bacteria on the other hand. Still do have a cell wall so you still can target them with Bela Tim Antibiotics. But because that's so wallace surrounded by another membrane. It's a little bit harder to get in and to get those Beta lactates through right right. So that's why we develop better and better like they're called second and third and fourth and fifth generation Beta lack teams that have slightly different structures. That can do a better job of getting in to treat those gram negative infections. Okay cool cool now. There are other bacteria that don't have kept waken. Cell walls like mycobacterium tuberculosis. There's a wall is made of a different substance called my cholic acid so obviously Beta lactate. Antibiotics are going to be entirely useless against those types of bacteria but we do have other antibiotics that are specific to Michael bacterial cell walls. So they do the same thing just on a different substance cool so that's sell law census inhibitors then. Bam I think so fun and it's such a beautiful target because we don't have pepito guy can right right. It's very cool so the next thing that we could target. How ABOUT PROTEINS? We've talked a lot on this podcast. About how cells. Basic function is to make proteins. Proteins are how we do all the things sells do so if we could target bacterial protein synthesis. Then we could stop bacteria from making proteins. That will eventually make the cells die because they won't be able to do their job. The only problem is that ourselves also make proteins but the good news is that it turns out that the specific ribe zome 's that bacteria use to make protein are different in their shape and structure in function. Dan Human ones are so we target says really good news so there's two steps that we can target in terms of protein synthesis. I we can target the process of transcription. This is where we take. Dna and turn it into Arnie which serves as the template for making proteins. This is what the Rhythm Aisin's do this targets bacterial RNA PRELIMINARIES. So it. Basically blocks the ability of bacterial cells. To make so totally is going to kill them. It's great but that's just sort of one class. The vast majority of antibiotics that we have the target protein synthesis block the Riva's homes which are integral in making protein. How exactly do they block the right zones? So there's a a bunch of different ways. Right assumes have two parts they have small sub unit and a large sub unit so depending on the antibiotic class they're either going to bind to the small sub unit or the large sub unit and basically inactivate them so they okay they bind to those ripe assumes and they block those resumes from like acting on a to make it into protein if that makes sense. Yeah and there's a lot a lot of different antibiotics that do this whether they target the large or the small sub unit. So those are the Amino Acids like Streptomycin Gentlemen Santo per my Sin. The tetracycline like doxycycline. Also the macro allieds which are like Irre- through my sin as the Throne Mason. Okay so in the case of these. Whether it's revamping that's blocking RNA. Synthesis or any of these classes that are blocking the right zones and blocking protein synthesis. What types of bacteria do you think that we could target with these antibiotics? Lots of lots of pretty much any of them. We use these antibiotics Asides tetracyclene macro leads for like sue many different infections gram positive and gram negatives which also means that they like. Do a very good job of wiping out microbiome stuff. We should do an episode on the microbiome. It's a whole. It's such a separate topic. Yeah it's just hard not to think about it every time I like. Think about an antibiotic use absolutely so anyway. You should think about it every time. You think about an antibiotic though because it's absolutely absolutely a consideration. Yeah alright interesting okay. So that's blocking protein synthesis if we take a step back from protein synthesis we have DNA right so we could block DNA replication itself So long as bacterial DNA replication is different from EUKARYOTIC DNA replication. It is mostly the same but there are a couple of enzymes that are different so we can target those specific enzymes right and it turns out that we have antibiotics that do exactly that fluoroquinolone 's which are a synthetic group of antibiotics. They target a bacterial enzyme called DNA. Gye Race that eukaryotic cells. Don't have so that's great and so they can block that enzyme and thereby inhibit all of DNA replication if you can't replicate DNA you can't make new cell. Boom boom boom over short. We don't have a lot of those mostly flora all right the last big way that we could target and this one's really fun even though there's very few antibiotics that we have to do this is we could block. Some of the metabolism of bacteria specifically fully synthesis. Okay so most people have probably heard of full late rain because you've heard of full Iq acid that you need to. If if you're pregnant you have to make sure you're getting enough folic acid. That's the context that most people have heard of it right. Okay so folic. Acid is vitamin B. Nine this in both bacteria and eukaryotes is very heavily involved in the actual synthesis of DNA building. Blocks okay so you don't use folic acid itself but it's necessary to make the building blocks of DNA right so if you don't have enough full of acid you can't make DNA. We have to get full of acid from our diet. We have to eat it. We can't make it ourselves. Bacteria as it turns out make their own folic acid. That's very cool. It's very cool. And so if we can block bacteria's ability to make full of acid. They can't uptake it from their environment. So then they're going to die because they can't make DNA so they can't replicate eight so turns out. We have antibiotics. That inactivate enzymes in the folic acid synthesis pathway in bacteria. So those are the so fond of Mites A An antibiotic called trae method Prim and so the cell phone lines and try method Prim target two different steps in the synthesis of folic acid. So we actually often use them together in combination. You've probably heard try imprint cellphone Fox aside soulful mythos. I don't think I've heard of that but oh you have issue. Have you heard of back trim? Yes there you go then you have heard of it. Which group is Chloramphenicol? Chloramphenicol is a protein synthesis inhibitor. Okay thank you. So it's not in one of those big groups that I talked about but it is its own protein synthesis inhibitor. Okay so yeah. That's kind of the big broad strokes of the different classifications of antibiotics and how they work. antibiotics can be either bacteria static or bacteria. Seidel SO BACTERIA. Seidel like pesticide means that. They kill the bacteria. Okay whereas bacteria static means they just stop the growth of bacteria and then we rely on our immune system to come in and finish the job right. Okay it's a little bit more nuanced than that. Because some antibiotics are bacteria static against some organisms and bacteria. Seidel against others interesting. Yeah it's a little bit complicated but it's partially because of how we define bacteria seidel which is basically you have to kill ninety nine point nine percent of bacteria within twenty four hours so you might be back. Tiriac sidled but it actually takes longer than twenty four hours. So you're not technically bacteria Seidel Gotcha. Okay so that's basically antibiotics in a nutshell. Those like your Pharmacology Course Andrew Microbiology. Course but overall I think is kind of the most important takeaway is that there aren't any good antibiotics or bad antibiotics. You might hear people say like these are big gun antibiotics these are. That's a terrible term. Actually even though people use it all the time there are the right antibiotics and there are the wrong antibiotics for any given infection. There are antibiotics that are going to work and there are ones that aren't going to work. And so we can see based on these mechanisms of action that some of these antibiotics will work against a large number of pathogens and we call those broad spectrum antibiotics whereas others work against a more narrow spectrum of pathogens right And then on top of that. Some antibiotics are more potent so they might need less of a concentration in your system in order to kill the bacteria but some of those that are more potent might also be more indiscriminate in killing maybe our own selves right like they might have adverse side effects on our own cells right and of course pretty much without a doubt. Antibiotics ended up killing our own microbiome as well as the pathogenic bacteria that they're supposed to be targeting so when we're thinking about what antibiotics we use in certain situations. It depends both on the severity of the infection. What that infectious organism is or is likely to be And what the overall antibiotic resistance looks like in that area. Yeah and that's how we have to decide what antibiotics we use for specific pathogens. Well and it can be. I'm sure we're going to talk about this much much more like. There's so many questions that I wanted to ask about antibiotic resistance I know in this to save it and so I'm sure we're GONNA talk about this more in the in that resistance episode but I think it really also comes down to like if somebody is very ill from what seems to be a bacterial infection then. Oftentimes it's not possible to sort of like. Choose this antibiotic is going to be the best one exactly. So then. What we do is we. It's called treating them empirically right and so you you look at okay. What type of infection is this? Where do we think this infection likely came from because then we start to narrow it down? Do we think that this is a gram positive or gram negative infection or are we not sure. Do we think we're trying to treat aerobic bacteria or anaerobic bacteria right. What was the source of these bacteria? Where are they growing and then we also yeah? We have to look at how sick the person is because if someone is really really sick then we might accept using an antibiotic that has greater range of side effects. If it's going to be more effective at killing those bacteria right so in the other thing too is that in general you want to use the most narrow spectrum antibiotic that you can in the situation so sometimes you might start out when you're not sure what the infection is with one antibiotic and then once you have a clearer picture. You can switch to another antibiotic But so for example there are some antibiotics that we talked about already. That are really really effective. And they're effective against a really wide range of pathogens for example reform in this targets are in a polymerase so it's effective against tons and tons of bacteria but it also actually has relatively few side effects. It's a pretty good drug but it's such a good drug that we don't want to use it against just anything right so we save that for use in very severe infections. We generally use it just Basis and meningitis as well if we discovered that one I instead of penicillin. I mean we wouldn't be using it at all because of his assistance because resistance also develops really rapidly to revamp in as well and so it's also often used in combination with other antibiotics right. So so yeah. It's it's a complicated but really fun topic. I think it. It's really interesting and I also. I wish I read more about sort of the history of microbiological developments. Because I feel like we're going to talk about this later on in the episode but like how the development of new antibiotics has really slowed down and I wonder if part of that is because our knowledge of the differences between like. We've already kind of taken out all the low hanging and middle hanging fruit when it comes to differences between bacterial cells and EUKARYOTIC cells. Toto now it's like. Why do we even have? What targets do we even have left to identify? Absolutely yes so it's interesting. It's interesting so herron. How did we come up with these? Wear do antibiotics come from? Tell me everything about them okay. I can't wait. We'll take a quick break. I from exactly right. Media comes the fall line a true crime podcast the digs deep into cold cases. That have received little if any public attention. The fall line is an investigative show covering unsolved murders and disappearances in the southeastern United States hosted by professor and a licensed therapist. The podcasts provides a platform to families and victims who've been passed over by other outlets through intensive research and compelling narratives the fall line builds the knowledge base on little known cases of the murder missing and the unidentified. These are stories. You won't hear anywhere else tune into the fall line on exactly right network for new episodes dropping on Wednesdays and be sure to check out our back catalogue for both epizootic and long-form coverage of cases. Listen and subscribe to the fall line. And all of exactly right shows on apple podcasts. Stitcher or wherever you like to listen From defense to offense from art to science this is the story of antibiotics. It's hard to know exactly where to begin. This story do we. For instance start with lister and a use of carbolic acid to disinfect wounds. Or do we start with Fleming and penicillin or do we go back in time before germ theory too when people used moldy bread to treat infected cuts. Yeah that happened but like you talked about. The word antibiotic simply means against life. Antiseptic like listers carbolic. Acid may effectively kill bacteria. Making it antibacterial but it also kills human animal cells. So it's not really an antibiotic free and also it shouldn't be injected into your body which unfortunately does need to be said considering some recent statements the world that we live in by someone plus I would also really low to tell the story of lister antiseptics and surgical practices one day. So let's put a pin in that and come back to it in another episode perfect instead. I would like to go back to the earliest known use of mold to treat infections and it's surprisingly widespread that practice that so weird so there are descriptions of using moldy bread for various ailments found in ancient Egypt. China Serbia Greece Rome Central America. Like it's it's amazing and some of these are topical treatments like Rub Moldy Bread crumbs on a hustler. Scalp INFECTION YUP and others actually instruct you to make a moldy bread mixture to eat to quote sued the pipes bladder or urinary tract inflammation. Oh I thought it meant the like Pharyngitis. Maybe that to any kind of fight but for whatever reason these uses of mold to treat infections kind of fell out of style or were forgotten about for a few thousand years and before going into the modern history of antibiotics. I WANNA paint a little picture of what? The pre antibiotic era was like. Oh Gosh that sounds depressing. It is but it also shows how far we've come so before antibiotics three out of ten. Pneumonia patients died. Nine out of every one thousand births led to the mother's death untreated ear infections and strep throat led to hearing impairments and heart failure and as you can imagine. War was an absolute feast for pathogenic bacteria in the American civil war. More soldiers died from typhoid fever and dysentery than directly from combat and similarly in World War. One more people died of dysentery and typhus. Then the fighting itself. The modern history of antibiotics starts or at least. I'M GONNA start it with the lecture. Given by Paul Ehrlich in one thousand nine hundred seven and this name may sound familiar to you for any number of reasons. One of those reasons may be this now infamous lecture because in that lecture he used the term magic bullet to describe this ideal drug. That could be used to kill bacterial infections. And at this time it was still a hypothetical concept up to this point nineteen early. Nineteen hundreds germ theory had been well established and discoveries were still pouring in the understanding of how infectious diseases work had really grown over the past. Fifty years and technology for carrying out microbiological studies had advanced a ton and so that really helped so microscopes and lab equipment made it much easier to find and identify bacterial cells as well as create vaccines for both bacteria and viruses. But even though many horrible diseases could not be prevented. There hadn't been much progress in terms of treatment for those diseases. And so this had led to a really interesting shift that I hadn't really thought about before In the philosophy or attitude of many physicians so before germ theory. Let's say like the seventeen late seventeen hundreds and the mid eighteen hundreds the predominant strategy four medicine in much of Europe in the US was called heroic medicine and so what this consisted of was essentially trying to shock the body back into balance So we're talking excessive bloodletting purging sweating you name it. Basically extreme extreme intervention okay was that was the mode and as you can probably imagine most of the time. The recipients of this heroic medicine were treated to death but then in the mid eighteen. Hundreds germ theory came around and with it came this recognition that for these infectious diseases. There was often no amount of intervention that stop their progress. Could you prevent these vaccines? Sometimes that was great when that could happen and you could also lay out a timeline of what an infected person would experience at each excruciating stage of an infectious disease. But you couldn't do anything most of the time to stop fate. And so doctors went from this extreme interventionist heroic medicine to what has been called therapeutic nihilism or fatalism. So it's like well. We can't do anything. I could just so hopeless so on the one hand that fewer people being bled to death but on the other if your patient developed fatal infectious disease there was nothing you could do ease. They're passing but fortunately researchers and physicians weren't satisfied by that enter Paul Ehrlich Ehrlich had spent his dissertation exploring the use of dyes for staining various tissues and cell types and one of his important discoveries. Was that you could selectively stained certain types of bacteria side note Ehrlich's fascination with dies. Made him a really recognizable figure in all the places that he worked because his fingers were always stained and his clothes always stained. And if you watch the show share which we both have watched and loved They depict him as such. She has like stains all over his lab lab coat and stuff. I reminds me of my high school French teacher who always had like chalk dust on his fingers and the edges. It was pocket. What my favorite things in like middle school and high school is when a teacher would be have chocked us like chalk. Dust handprint that they would put in some very like place and I loved it. Wow wild times but his discovery that you could selectively die. Certain types of bacteria had huge implications for medicine because basically if you could get a die to recognize those specific bacteria. Maybe you could get a magic bullet then to target and destroy them So Ehrlich went to work with Robert Coke in Berlin in eighteen. Ninety one to get started on this and there he collaborated with bearing if you remember bearing from our Diptheria episode to work on this Diptheria. Anti Serum among other things but Ehrlich also had recognized the limitations in anti serums in terms of safety and scaling up production and also because not all bacteria produce toxins for Anti Serum Development. And so it's kind of like not not a Richfield for treatment right and so he partnered up with a chemical dye company and went in search of a chemical compound that could deliver the same targeted blow as anti serums and he began looking. At treatments for trypanosomiasis African sleeping sickness which is caused by a protozoan parasite and he looked at. Because these protozoan parasites were a bit easier to see and identify under the scope and so he and his collaborator Suha. Chiro tested out many many different compounds and versions of compounds and eventually they found success with compound six. Oh six and that is not as it is often told the six hundred sixth compound to be developed but it was the sixth version of the six compound tested but anyway they found it worked to cure sleeping sickness and this alone was fantastic but then. Ehrlich made a fortuitous mistake. He thought that syphilis was also caused by Trepanier. Rome's it's not as we know from our syphilis episodes caused by the bacterium Trebinje McCallum. And I wonder like my pet theory is that he just got the names confused. Trebinje I don't. I can't remember when syphilis was called trump ema but leg tropism and trump. Ima they sound similar if that was the case pretty cool anyway but he tested it out. He tested out six. Oh six on syphilis. And this compound six. Oh six which would later be called. Salvator. San Or nowadays are stemming was hailed as a wonder drug because it worked. This was the first real synthetic chemo therapeutic drug and it was widely prescribed all of the world. And it wasn't great as you may remember from our syphilis episode but it was adequate and Neo Salver. San was a slight improvement was developed a few years later and this would be followed by other synthetic drugs that targeted malaria. For instance and this incremental progress continued through the early twentieth century but these drugs were super specific and sometimes had really really nasty side effects and the hunt was still on four something that could be more widely used to kill bacteria but success was really hard to come by so for example. A physician named Jago Godson wrote that by nineteen thirty. It was the universal opinion of physicians that nothing could be discovered which would be effective against the ordinary diseases produced by bacteria. Ninety three nothing. Nothing nothing nothing. We have no a maybe a bit of a pessimist but and so a year later in one thousand nine hundred eighty one a team of researchers headed by Gerhard Dome Ach at Bayer Checkout our aspirin episode for more on that company he was working on a super lethal strain of strep and he found that if he combined an Aso compound which is a type of synthetic dye with sulfur Nila inorganic sulfur compound. They had a drug on their hands that could wipe out the super strap in the mice that they had tested and it also proved effective in humans to treat. Strap and non strep infections like spinal meningitis and gonorrhea but maybe most impressively proposal. Which is the commercial name that this drug got was found to be effective in treating STREP JANIS? Which is the cause of pupil or child fever which was horrible and we'll do an episode on it at some point with this drug mortality from childhood. Fever fell from around twenty to thirty percent to just four point seven percent. Whoa yeah can you imagine? That's wow yeah we owe it all to chemistry are. Our allies are chemistry. They are. They are and for this dough. Mock got the Nobel Prize. Okay anyway it turns out that the as die and Pronto has absolutely no antibacterial effect. Does it do anything? It's just a cell phone Ilham. I'd that's which is you know. It's good news for the world but it was bad news for bear because they couldn't you know copywriter patent this drug anymore because sulfur nomad had been in the public domain for a few decades because it had been identified and published in a doctoral thesis back in the early nineteen hundreds. Yeah so this meant that. These sulphur drugs could be made pretty easily around the world and that satisfied demand much more effectively than if Bayer alone had gotten their patent like they had wanted right and these drugs reviewed as a miracle rightly so no one had ever seen such incredible and rapid improvement of patients. Who seemed on? Death's door and dreaded STREP infections. Were no longer this death sentence that they had previously been but there's a dark side to the widespread production of sulfur drugs And that is the regulation or more accurately the lack of regulation one company in the US Combined Sofa Raspberry Flavoring Saccharin and diethylene glycol to create a sweet little syrup. Oh No yeah your face. Your face was very telling. Don't WanNa to eat ethylene glycol. No no so diethylene. Glycol is a compound found in brake. Fluid coolants resins. And when it's ingested by animals it produces dizziness. Intoxication nausea elevated heart rate muscle spasms ultimately kidney failure and death so this however didn't stop the launch of the drug the Sulfur Syrup in October of nineteen thirty seven and almost immediately deaths were reported and the FDA launched into action and tracked down the almost the entirety of that initial shipment of thank gracious so this company was brought to trial over this but they were not brought to trial because they're drug had killed a bunch of people the only thing that they could be like find sued for is because they had mislabeled their drug as an elixir. And it wasn't an elixir. Because by law elixirs were required to contain alcohol. And this did not I. I know I don't even have any words right now. Actually I know they were. You know they were find. That's that's about it. This was nineteen thirty seven. Yeah Okay Cool And one good thing did come out of this. And that was the nineteen thirty eight Federal Food Drug and Cosmetic Act that introduced some much much needed regulation and oversight into the manufacturer and sales of medicines. Yeah spending time sulfur. Drugs continued to be widely used and were a key component in fighting infections during World War. Two and so it might not be that surprising that these were the first antibacterial drugs that we see antibiotic resistance towards for example in the late nineteen thirties. Ninety percent of soldiers treated for gonorrhea with this drug were cured but by nineteen forty two that had fallen to seventy five percent and would continue to drop who we just a few years but this concerning development was somewhat overshadowed by the introduction of an entire suite of antibiotics snaps. Here we go into it. I feel like this is where most people probably expected the story to begin so a hundred percent. I think the whole story of sulfur drugs is not as well known as penicillin. I sure spoilers. And there's a whole book about it that I have to confess. I haven't read but I wanted to if I had more time. Called the demon under the microscope. And that's about sulfur drugs cool but anyway okay so yes I think most people are at least somewhat familiar with the story of Fleming's accidental quote unquote discovery of Penicillin. But just in case. I'll take us through it because there's also some fun things that I learned of course here and there always are there always are all right so in. Nineteen Twenty eight Alexander. Fleming was a researcher in a lab in Saint Mary's Hospital in London and by this time his work during World War One on the role of anaerobic bacteria in battle wounds and the harm that antiseptics and wound treatment can cause as well as his discovery of the digestive enzyme license. I'm these things had established him as an intelligent and insightful scientist he also claimed to have discovered I'm by when his drip From his nose accidentally fell on a plate of bacteria he was culturing in. They died and so he's like. Oh there must be something in my snot and then so he discovered license. I'm okay inside. Cool yeah so. He was just admitted to the world that he had a snotty nose that he just let drip everywhere. Yep Yeah I mean. He was known by his Co workers to be pretty messy. Yeah well not that having snotty nose makes you messy but like this is just I think. In addition so in August of Nineteen Twenty eight as the story goes he left for vacation in Scotland. Leaving Petri dishes of staff cultures just out on the bench and a window open when he came back a couple of weeks later he found spots of fungal contamination on one of his plates in the fungus. Probably he assumed blue in through the open window and around the spots of fungus technically mold actually was a clearing so a ring where all the staff cultures on these plates had died. Fleming recognized this. Mold represented some amazing possibilities in terms of killing bacteria and so he set to work trying to cultivate it and he later discovered actually was told by another colleague that it was penicillin. Not Adam now penicillin crisis Jim. I think that's how you pronounce it item. Not sure and he reasoned that if there was something which he referred to as mold juice produced by this mold that inhibited the growth of bacteria and he called that penicillin he published this finding in March of nineteen twenty nine in an article called on the antibacterial action of cultures of penicillin with special reference to their use in the isolation of be influenza. What an amazing story of accidental brilliance and insight. You know wh or was it. It's I will say what's impressive is like you pay that much attention to the plates that you supposedly just forgot left lying around all empty array you come back and you're like let me inspect this. Ooh I see a fungal growth and a small clearing around it like it's pretty good. It's pretty I mean I am by no means saying that. This is not impressive. I just think and this is not. This is not you thought unique to me. This is definitely something I picked from these books that I read. This probably wasn't as accidental of a discovery as he claimed it to be. The insight was still brilliant and amazing. But let's just let's just go through some of the points of the story that don't make a lot of sense first of all that window. That just happened to be open. According to other people in the lab it was like opened so it would be kind of strange that he would leave it open for like a bunch of weeks at a time. Yeah and then. The timeline itself is a bit fuzzy so Fleming said he was gone for at least five weeks and then it was no more than two and I could just be the not remembering. Well if you're recalling this years into the future but the biggest plot hole lies in the biology of this penicilliums species so although Fleming wouldn't have known this the staff a plate would have killed the mold before it would produce penicillin If the plates already had those cultures they're like they did before he left and the penicillin blew into the window. That staff would have killed the mold before it could produce the compound penicillin. H- so there's rings weren't possible so what actually was going. Well Fleming was a rather inventive guy who liked to play games. He would paint pictures of the Union Jack or The logo of Saint Mary's using different bacterial species in this was mid nineteen twenties. When you would have had to have encyclopedic knowledge of bacteria to be able to pull that off. Yeah that's pretty cool. Yeah and he was also painfully shy and hated discussing his methods or results with anyone So the best guests from the author of the book that I read about this is that he invented the story so as not to have to describe his process of discovery and he may have actually been looking at more sources for. I'm thinking maybe it's found in mold or pence Liam as well because basically they're saying he would have had to basically plate the mold before he played it the staph Aureus to be able to actually kill stacked with the with that mold right exactly I mean but regardless of how he arrived at this discovery he still discovered it and bring naked those dots. Yeah that's pretty cool there impressive dots to connect. That's for sure super impressive. I don't know why he would have chalked it. Up to like serendipity. I don't know maybe maybe it's like more fun to have a lightbulb moment than like you know the incremental progress and like years of hard work and inside. I. I don't know I don't know. Don't have the APP Cingo. But if there's one name that we associate with penicillin it's Fleming Right and if there's one era in the first half of the twentieth century right However ooh however it turns out that the bacteria killing quality of penicillin molds had been observed before as early as the eighteen hundreds when Sir John Scott Burden Sanderson Joseph Lister and John Tyndall all observed separately that bacteria would not grow in media that had been contaminated by mold and lister and Tyndall when as far as to describe the mold as penicillin species and there are other instances of people recognizing the power of mold. So what made flemming's discovery a breakthrough while the others remained simply observations right so one reason is that Fleming saw the implications that this could have for treating infections and also because he set out trying to isolate his mold use compound basically turning his lab into this penicillin farm. Okay and when they They meaning Fleming in his assistant Stewart. Craddock finally had enough mold us to test it out. They realized that it killed. Not just AFLA cocky bacteria but also STREPTOCOCCI and a bunch of other groups. Bacteria gram positive bacteria They also realized that some bacteria were immune to penicillin Gram negative among others and the final really important realization was that it was a not harmful to non bacterial cells. Yeah that was the big one right. This was finally like was this. The magic bullet seemed to fit. But all of these observations were made through bench work alone. Fleming never tested out penicillin on an animal. Maybe he never thought of it. Maybe it was just too difficult to isolate the compound And finally the lab where he worked at Saint. Mary's IT's simply wasn't equipped to do the kind of work that he was doing there. Were very few chemists. Working there and overall it was much much less funded than the chemical companies who microbiologists were partnering with in Germany So there was only so much fleming could do but where Fleming left off flory picked up in one thousand nine hundred eighty five Australian. Howard flurry was professor of pathology and fellow of Lincoln College at Oxford and was leading a research group to investigate why bacteria could not penetrate the wall of the GI tract or did not seem to. He suspected license which your member from Flemming's discovery and to carry out his research. He realized he needed to form a strong collaboration with chemists. Honestly Erin I think I had no idea that. This episode was going to be propaganda for chemistry. But I'm I'm one over there. I'm here for it okay. Anyway he ended up partnering with a couple of chemists one named EA H Richards who appear phyliss time and another named Ernst chain. Who would identify its substrate? These efforts were part of a larger goal of the lab that had begun in nineteen thirty seven which was to survey. This is a massive undertaking to survey. All of the antibacterial substances produced by microorganisms. All of them just all of them by all of the microorganisms cook. Cool work out for them actually. Pretty great because penicillin molds. Were on that long list. But in the eight years since flemming had published his paper in nineteen twenty nine not much substantial work been done on penicillin and Fleming had all but abandoned it at one lab group afternoon. Tea Flurry was talking about. What a difficult time. Fleming and a biochemist name. Racetrack had in trying to stabilize. Penicillin and Shane was like well. They must not have been very good chemists and took it as a personal challenge to try to do it himself. I relate to that and Shane but chain at the time had his hands full with a bunch of other chemical experiments penicillin so he called on biochemist. Norman Heatley who all accounts was the nicest most humble like kind person in this group and he so he wanted. Heatley to work on growing enough of this penicillin mold to make research feasible. Okay and where? Fleming had lacked the equipment and chemical minds to make forward progress with penicillin. Flurries lab just lacked money period and eventually the Rockefeller Foundation awarded a nice grant to help them along and it was just an icky time because the penicillin project had been yielding some very promising results so heatley had been able to extract larger quantities of penicillin. As well as stabilize which made experiments much easier to perform and finally on May Twenty Fifth Nineteen Forty Penicillin was injected into four of eight mice. That had been infected with. Strep podge unease and the four that received treatment survived and seemed absolutely one hundred percent healthy and the four. That did not died a yeah and this was great news. I mean not for the mice that died but for the world but there is still this huge problem of production because although he had made amazing progress in the stabilization of penicillin he simply could not make enough of it to keep up with demand. And it's not like the lab had the funds to supply the materials or equipment to ramp up production So he resorted to stealing. He took bedpans from the hospital. Supply Cabinet and baking trays from the kitchen to supply this huge amount of space that he needed to grow the mold and he basically macgyver. D- His way through the purification process through a collection of random junk that he found in the lab. I love that. He is amazing. Beginners literally needed containers to grow molden. He's like yeah. I'll use this. I'll use that coup great. You're not using this. You haven't baked in a while. Yeah it's really impressive. And in the in the book that I read there are some like figures that show his setup and it's like the just amazing it's amazing. That's there's like so much more to all of these stories so and this is already a very long story but it's just fun and it's fun to like know about the individuals themselves and the personalities and how much personality as a role. Yeah it's very cool. Yeah so in. August of Nineteen Forty. Flory felt that he had enough to go public with this penicillin news and he published this research in an article in the Lancet titled Penicillin as Chemo. Therapeutic agent but at this point penicillin hadn't yet been tested in humans. Just mice I up with someone with terminal cancer but no bacterial infection. After receiving a shot of penicillin she developed a high fever in seizures and so that led them to realize that the process of concentrating penicillin also had this unintended side. Effect of concentrating impurities So they fixed it but instead of just testing to see whether it was safe injection. They also needed to test whether it was effective needed someone with an infection and they found one in an Oxford policeman named Albert Alexander who had scratched his face with a Rosebush while gardening over the course of the few months that small cut that tiny cut led to a massive infections. All OVER HIS BODY. He was quote oozing pus everywhere growth. I think his is like everywhere just everywhere one day after just one injection of two hundred milligrams of less than five percent pure penicillin will. He had made a miraculous improvement. The pus had stopped flowing and the fever had gone but the problem was still in keeping up the supply so the researchers had known that penicillin is excreted by the kidneys. They started to collect the policeman's urine and rush back to the lab to re purify them back to the hospital to reinject but they just couldn't keep up with demand they couldn't do it until the policemen died five days after once they ran out of penicillin just said but another person. A young kid that they treated survived later on. And so this was proof enough that it worked as long as you had enough of penicillin But there was never enough. Never Never Florey and Heatley needed more funds if they were ever going to make penicillin feasible treatment for infections and so they turn to a country that had the funds and the agricultural research infrastructure that they needed the United States after meeting with some friends slash fellow researchers about the work that they wanted to do. They came to the conclusion that they needed to head to the foremost site of agricultural research in the country the northern regional research lab in Peoria Illinois Peoria. That's like this is pure. Is the site for penicillin like from when it went from a novel. Potential thing to actual penicillin actual penicillin. Yeah Wow Peoria Uria. I wonder if they have that. Just like blazoned everywhere. All their bridges like penicillin salon was found deer. It wasn't down there but outskirts of Peoria. Never she streets So how exactly did penicillin go from medical curiosity to world changing substance? Yeah there are three big developments that would make this transformation. Possible number one. Finding strains of penicillin that produced the most penicillin number two developing the best protocol to rapidly. Grow the mold and number three improving the fermentation process that actually led to penicillin to find these turbo strains of penicillin a bacteriologist at the lab named Mary. Hunt went to Peoria markets like every day every weekend to find moldy fruits and vegetables like the veg market. She's just walking around farmers market lake. Don't worry I'm here for work. And she hit pay dirt. She had absolute in one thousand. Nine hundred eighty three with mouldy cantaloupe keen elope the mold on that cantaloupe was so powerful that it became the source for basically all of the world's penicillin and as for a better growth medium the Midwest. Us is known for what type of food Aaron corn corn the corn corn corn and corn corn corn and corn and it turned out that grilling penicillin in something called corn steep liquor. Plus sugar produced one thousand times more penicillin than the previous method. Wow that's a lot way to go corn way to go corn corn for the win but once again it came time to ground truth penicillin on Valentine's Day. Nineteen forty to a woman named Anne Miller was in the hospital in New Haven Connecticut. After experiencing a miscarriage she had developed Blood Poisoning Aka hemolytic. Streptococcal septicemia her. She had like fevers of one hundred seven. She was not coherent. It was really bad and her doctor ended up through a series of pleading calls. He ended up securing a small glass. Vile containing five point. Five grams of penicillin had come from that research lab. Five point five grams at the time. Nineteen forty two was half of the entire amount of penicillin in the US. Whoa he guest at a dosage. 'cause he there's no Renault guidelines and he injected the drug into an. She survived the night and the next day and the next day and the next fifty seven years after that. Wow yet her chart her medical chart from this. Time is actually in the Smithsonian's National Museum of American history. So you can go and see it. I love that museum. Yeah Oh it's amazing. Yeah and this marked a real turning point in penicillins history by nineteen forty two and nineteen forty-three many pharmaceutical companies in the US including Merck and Pfizer got into the penicillin Biz and worked on their own production processes meaning that mass manufacturing was just around the corner and so were massive profits just like heaps and tons and loads of money money money money money money money and where is the successful treatment of an Miller with penicillin had led to the biomedical industry. Taking note of the drug a horrific fire would wake up the public to it on November. Twenty eighth nineteen forty two and artificial palm tree at a Boston nightclub called the coconut grove caught fire and within minutes the entire club was consumed wo four hundred and ninety two of the over. One thousand partners died. Isn't that it's one of the one of the deadliest fires in in American history. That's terrifying. It's horrible and hundreds more were horrifically burned at mass general hospital. The doctors decided that rather than debris down of the burns. They would try to administer and sulfur drugs. It's hard to say whether the penicillin did perform the miracles on these burn victims as the newspapers later claimed but regardless it had now become firmly established in the public's eye as a wonder drug demand for penicillin reached new heights. But the mounds of this dry brown powder weren't just there for anyone to use because there is a war going on right and so basically until the war was over. Penicillin was strictly reserved for troops allied troops with most of the drug being used for wounds received in battle and also gonorrhea most civilians and there were a few exceptions. Wouldn't enjoy the benefits of penicillin until after the war was over and Australia would actually be the first company to open up. Its use to the public. Even with all of these amazing advancements in penicillin production. There is still one big piece of the puzzle that that had yet to be solved that of its structure so chain had made some progress towards this but only in that he could produce crystallized degradation products which he offered up to biochemist's Dorothy Crawford Hodgkin. Who had already made amazing amazing discoveries about the structure of many large complex organic molecules such as cholesterol testosterone? Epson insulin and many others using x Ray crystallography so with the crystals that chain had given her Hodgkin used x Ray crystallography to get a clear idea of the different components of penicillin. But a clear idea is not the same thing as a clear idea and without that clear idea penicillin would never be synthesized. In a lab where it could be produced in larger quantities. Were more stable. More pure and more efficient. The breakthrough came when Hodgkin proposed a Beta Lacombe ring necked. It's amazing and by all accounts just like Heatley not only amazingly brilliant researcher. She was also really kind and well loved by everyone who knew her. Oh I have a baby book that she is the letter D for skin. He's so that makes me happy. So anyway penicillin wouldn't be synthesized until nineteen fifty seven but knowing its structure was integral not too not just making it in a lab but also in trying to look for other compounds that have similar structures and could be used to treat bacterial infections so the recent that I spent so much time talking about penicillin in this history of antibiotics as a whole is because it provided this new framework for thinking about what these different antibiotics might look like and where you could look for them right so namely in the existence of other living things but as you talked about Aaron Penicillin acts on only a subset of bacterial. Species gram positives. It's not effective against gram negatives like you're sitting at pestis or limited trachomatis or vibrio cholera or acid fast bacteria mycobacterium tuberculosis and up until the early nineteen the second leading cause of death in the US was bacterial. Pneumonia which could be caused by. A variety of gram positive and gram negative. Bacteria and tuberculosis wasn't much farther down the list. Sixth-place so the war bacteria was far from over and spoiler still not over today and besides penicillin years yielded more than just penicillin in terms of antibiotics to other drugs named Tiro Thrice and Grandma Sidon were developed from compounds produced by a soil bacterium. But there's a reason that those two might not sound familiar even though they're still occasionally used today. So one of these works by stopping proteins from being made as you had described and the other make cell membranes impermeable both of these things will definitely kill bacterial cells. But in these cases they also killed animal cells. So they're useless pretty limited but why important thing they did was give people a reason to look in soil for other possible antibiotics and whereas flemming's discovery of penicillin had been possibly fortuitous accident. The hunt for antibacterial compounds soil was grueling systematic trial and error search full of long days of hard work. Which is I mean. Let's face it. That's how most scientific developments actually happened right one of the people doing these long days of work and often even sleeping in the lab was a PhD candidate named Albert Schatz. His particular obsession was with acton. My CDs which is a group of soil bacteria and trying to find a compound to kill mycobacterium tuberculosis. And if you listen to our two regulus from way back in Season One. This story may sound a bit familiar to you. As we know to recuse is very deadly and at the time there was no cure so Schatz was basically exiled to do his work in the basement by himself. How dangerous he was. Culturing asus okay. Yeah but this isolation I guess paid off on October. Nineteenth nineteen forty three. He discovered that bacterium named streptomycetes gracieuse produced a substance that killed mycobacterium tuberculosis. And that substance is what we know as trump to mason stripped in my fan but just like with the early days of penicillin. There was a production issue. How do you make enough of the stuff to actually perform meaningful experiments? And that's where Schatz advisor Salman Wachsman leaned on the labs connection with Merck to enlist their help in ramping up production so eventually they were able to make enough streptomycin to test tested on. Guinea pigs infected with tuberculosis. And guess what it worked it worked. It also worked on humans which was again viewed as Miracle. The common thread in this. But who would get credit for this miracle not the student? Never no no I mean. Interestingly Merck gave up the patent rights to Schatz and Wachsman and they filed the patent on behalf of Rutgers University on February ninth in nineteen forty five both swearing under oath that they were co discoverers of the drug. But if you were living then and following the news about streptomycin during this time you only heard one name wachsman. Wachsman had dozens of newspaper articles. Calling him a hero and man of the soil while Schatz his name was nowhere to be found. Shots was not okay with us and told wachsman this but what he got in reply was quote. You must therefore be fully aware of that. Fact that your own share in the solution of the shook demise in problem was only a small one. You are one of many cogs integrate wheel in the study of antibiotics this laboratory. There were a large number of graduate students and assistants. Who helped me in this work? They were my tools. My hands if you please gosh why doing a PhD so depressing. I think that that's not a very great way to look at your students. Nope And this conflict spilled over into the financial side of things so they both had supposedly signed away their patent rights for one dollar each but wachsman had made a side deal that had earned him twenty percent of the prophets if he got shots to sign away his rights. What yeah that's so gross. I know I know. And of course there was the fact that wachsman was awarded the Nobel Prize and Schatz was not mentioned either by the committee or in Wachsman Acceptance Speech as more than just one of twenty graduate students or lab tech's problem with Nobel Prizes Guy. It is true that walks was a brilliant scientist who made many other incredible discoveries and he is actually the one who came up with the term antibiotic but this is not not great. Visuals not really. Israel's in any case by the late nineteen forties there. Were now two super powerful antibiotics at work completely. Reshaping the health of the world and the dive into soil bacteria kind of opened the floodgates even more than the first broad spectrum antibiotics that worked on both gram positive gram negative. Bacteria were discovered so called Tetris. Cycling's and then in nineteen forty came with rice and also from soil bacterium Septa macy's era three `es Cortana call was another. That came along that received immediate popularity but its popularity wouldn't last too long because when people realize that the super powerful antibiotic resulted in some people developing a plastic anemia. It was kind of not used as much. Yeah a plastic. Anemia means that you your body stops making blood cells. Like all of them yeah. It's very deadly for babies. Yeah yeah so especially in kids. They they were seeing this happen and then in nineteen forty. Eight came the discovery that there was a massive so far untapped market for antibiotics agriculture. Gosh Yeah Oh gosh and early. Experiments showed that chickens receiving broad spectrum. Antibiotics grew much bigger much more quickly than those that didn't get the drug and almost immediately pharmaceutical firms jumped on this producing tetracyclene derived nutritional supplements. Yeah Up to twenty five percent of all of the antibiotics ever. Manufactured have been for use in animals. Wow that is a lot. It's a lot and the doses that they were given were not therapeutic doses rate like the amount needed to cure an infection these were super tiny doses given to promote growth and those tiny amounts of antibiotics led to massive amounts of resistance. Which GonNa talk more about in our next episode but this is a great trend towards antibiotic use throughout the twentieth century. Do you have any sort of complaint or infection whether it be viral or bacterial sprinkles about Exxon it sprinkle sprinkle and the philosophy was that even if it might not be the philosophy still kind of is. I think some people that even if it's not bacterial infection the antibiotics couldn't hurt right but that's where we might be wrong. We could actually wrong. Not Not only does this. Overuse of antibiotics and misuse lead to antibiotic resistance. But we're also finding fewer and fewer effective antibiotics and so we're literally running out of the ones that we have and we're also as I mentioned earlier learning a lot more about our own microbiome and the huge role that it plays in our health. Great so my I mean my story kind of stops there because it's just like antibiotics continued to be developed and then now it's kind of fallen off and I'll pick up in our next episode on the history of resistance which is a fascinating. One definitely bleeds into current time so definitely big lead but for now Erin. Tell me what's going on in the world of antibiotics. I can't wait to. We'll take a quick break. I A lot of the modern story of. Antibiotics is antibiotic resistance. And we're not going to talk about that today so we'll just sort of focus on. What is the status of sort of antibiotic development today? So how do we use antibiotics today? You mentioned in agriculture. The use of antibiotics in agriculture is so intense and so massive in twenty ten there were something like sixty. Three thousand tons of antibiotics used in livestock. And it's on the rise. It's projected that by twenty thirty. It'll be a hundred and five thousand tonnes. Yep It's it is eye opening Tucher most definitely so what about in humans. How do we use antibiotics? Between two thousand and two thousand fifteen overall antibiotic consumption has increased sixty five percent. Really Yeah We. We're just increasing our use of antibiotics. Even though we know we shouldn't be I mean this is now so antibiotics penicillin when it was first introduced. You just go to the store and buy it and in a lot of places that still the case true a lot of parts of the world you can still buy antibiotics just over the counter. So yeah overall. Global consumption is is really increasing end. This is concerning for a lot of reasons resistance chiefly among them but the other thing is and you kind of mentioned this a little bit Aaron. We haven't been good at coming up with new antibiotics for a really long time So after the discovery of penicillin and then quickly after that the discovery of so many other groups of antibiotics right streptomycin. That accident a totally. Different way we know on protein synthesis rather than the so wall once. We came up with those four classes of antibiotic mechanism. There haven't really been new classes of antibiotics approved between nineteen sixty and two thousand. No new classes of antibiotics were approved rate Syria and that means while we came up with plenty of new antibiotics they were just variations on a theme right which means that resistance might be less of a. It might be an easier leap than it would be for a whole new class of antibiotics. Exactly right so it's basically just trying to one up the resistance that we're seeing right. Let's change the structure of that. Tim just a little so etc. Yeah the good news. Is that between two thousand and two thousand fourteen. There have been a couple of new antibiotics approved including a few new classes. The Ox Zoellick announced that I mentioned earlier linear as a Lid. That's a synthetic drug. It's still inhibits protein synthesis but its mechanism of action is different than other classes like the amino acids macro leads and another one called Dayrell. Quinn alone. Hadn't heard of that before. It's a drug that we use for. Tb I guess it's relatively new and this disrupts energy metabolism in some new way that I don't know a lot about cool. We're making progress. But there's still a lot of challenges right. You mentioned how we used to screen and discover new antibiotics by digging through soil samples and trying to isolate compounds etc. It's a grueling process. It's a very long and drawn. Abor intensive labor intensive expensive difficult process. So I guess one of the big questions is have we come up with any better ways to identify antibiotics? I think that we have. We have which is absolutely thrilling. And we don't WanNa tell you about it. We want to have someone tell you about it. Who knows more about it so for that? We're very very fortunate to interview Dr Jonathan Stokes. Who has worked on antibiotics extensively and who recently published a paper about his work on discovering new antibiotics using entirely different methods than what we have used in the past. It is so mind blowing. I love it very very cool. It's like this is the future we are the future. We're living in the future. The year two thousand that does not feature. We'll let him introduce themselves. So I'm John Stokes a post doctoral fellow in Jim Collins lab at MIT and the broad institute I did my PhD at McMaster University in Hamilton Ontario. Under the supervision of Eric Brown so by training I consider myself. More of a biochemist like an antimicrobial biochemist. And I find myself now in gyms live doing a lot more Systems biology type work which is cool on because it. Kinda complements what I did during my PhD nicely. I feel awesome. Sounds awesome so we talk in our episode about how antibiotic discovery has kind of decreased over the last few decades but of course the need for antibiotics hasn't decreased if anything it's getting worse so could you talk a little bit about some of the challenges in the traditional ways that we search for new antibiotics yes. So historically are heyday of antibiotic discovery between the Forty. I can forties in the nineteen sixties. The golden era of antibiotics Where we're able to find a wide structural and functional collection of antibiotics through screening secondary metabolites from soil dwelling microbes. Right however come the mid nineteen sixties. We ran into a problem in that we kept rediscovering. The same antibiotics over and over again. You know more recent decades we shifted to a high throughput screening of synthetic chemical libraries in an attempt to find new antibiotics however You know for I WOULD GUESS PERHAPS THIRTY YEARS. Maybe of high throughput screening. We haven't found a single new clinically used antibiotic through that approach the other one You know the Beyond the scientific drawbacks are the economic drawbacks. Ray So if you're drug company it caused justice much money to make an antibiotic as it does to make you know a blood pressure medicine or an anti coagulant or something something. That patients are GONNA be on for decades as opposed to you. Know you're GonNa take attended course of antibiotic and furthermore if let's say you know. Let's start a company. We find the best antibiotic the world has ever seen right Physicians are GonNa WanNa use it. They're going to want to save it right. So you've invested a billion dollars or two billion dollars or something to develop this drug. That is never going to to generate the revenue to recoup costs. So you know the the the economic model for anybody. Discovering Development is fundamentally broken as well so you mentioned high throughput screening for potential anti microbial or antibiotic compounds. What are some of the other innovative new ways that people have you looked for new antibiotics? Yeah so for mild lab. One approach that we took in our lab was looking for molecules have unconventional activities. Another one is agent screens right. So instead of looking for one molecule at a time that inhibits the growth of bacteria of interest. What happens if we start combining two at a time There's been some work looking into phages therapy for the treatment of bacterial infections. But I'm not just using what we would call like natural favor while Fade. But there have been instances where Investigators have engineered to deliver toxic. What else anti-violence molecules in this case? You're not you know Iraqi population. You're just inhibiting bacterial cell processes such that. They won't make you sick right so there's a there's a whole lot of ways that people were hard trying to kind of address this problem. Outside of Conventional Antibiotic Discovery. We would define it awesome so we found you through your recent paper that was published in cell. That was on deep. Learning approaches to antibiotic discovery. I have literally never heard of the term deep learning before reading this paper. So could you tell us a little bit about this project specifically and kind of explain maybe for us who have no idea what machine learning is so at a high level machine? Learning is the discipline in which computers are programmed to learn patterns in data sets in our specific case. We can use that. As a concrete example. We want to predict antibiotics. What we wanted was a case. Where if we showed a computer the structure of a molecule it would be able to predict whether it was antibacterial or not right like at the at the simplest form in order to develop a machine learning model. That can do that while you I have to do is train that model so the model that we trained is called Kemp Robert. It was developed a couple years ago. Maybe by Regina Barzilai and her lab. So in our case we had twenty five hundred molecules that we trained on and each one of those molecules had a bio-activities score did it inhibit the growth of E-coli. Yes or no so. During training the model was walking around all twenty five hundred molecules and then learning the relationships between the structures of every molecule and whether it inhibited the growth of bacteria or not and then we ran predictions in a library. That's house at the broad institute which is called the broke repurposing. Hope it's about six thousand molecules either in preclinical development in phase one to three trials or on the market and all the model did right was look at every molecule in that library because we had the structures for all six thousand molecules and for everyone it gave us a number between zero and one if it was close to zero. It was unlikely to be antibacterial if it was close to one. It was likely to antibacterial based on the model that we trained using the twenty five hundred compounds so the way that we did it through the message passing approach it was not user defined like the model could find any molecular features within any given molecule. That would be strongly predictive or not. Predictive of antibacterial activity right like it was not. It was not human constrained it was free to explore the molecule and interpret the molecule in any way that it found fit to make predictions but yeah so they can make all of these interesting quote unquote discoveries. Even though we don't necessarily know what they're doing they know what they're doing. The predict molecules that. You would not to be antibiotic that you would not necessarily think to be. Antibiotics is looking at the structure. Wow that is amazing. So you mentioned that this model did find a couple of potential antibiotic compounds. Can you talk a little bit? More about those. And how they work to either inhibit the growth or kill bacteria and what kind of bacteria. They seem to be effective against. Yeah Yeah so the first one that we found was Alison Right. So that was actually from the drug repurposing. How that Library of six thousand? I just mentioned so we had set out to find molecules. We wanted to predict molecules. That were antibacterial but also we wanted to find molecules. That didn't look like conventional antibiotics right because we wanted to find structurally and functionally new stuff. That would be able to overcome a lot of the currently existing resistance mechanisms when we ran our predictions on the drug repurposing hub. We actually put two constraints on. The first thing was obviously had to have a high prediction score. The molecules had to be strongly predicted to be antibacterial but the second constraint was. They couldn't look like Conventional Antibiotics. And then we trained another model to predict toxicity ranked so he wanted the molecules to be non-toxic predicted to be not toxic. The molecule that fit the bill for those three criteria was allison and allison was Was a really interesting molecule to study. So we trained our model in E-coli we also found that it was bacteria Seidel N. E. coli rather than bacteria static so killed E. coli cells Rather than simply inhibiting growth. One of the coolest features to me about the molecule is that it had this really interesting ability to eradicate any biotic tolerance cells so most antibiotics. They were discovered using growth inhibition. However there are states in which bacteria can reside in which they aren't undergoing a lot of biological activity. So what happens is if you take those cells in stationary phase or nutrient deprived or whatever in any other way and you give them expose them to a bacteria. Seidel antibiotic most of the time. With a couple of exceptions those bacteriocidal antibiotics don't work because the biological processes that the inhibitor. Not doing anything. Oh man it's like trying to track. It's like trying to crash parked car like it doesn't really work God. That's a great analogy but we found we could. We could take coli put in conditions. That didn't have food in it. They weren't dividing. They weren't doing anything. And we were observing that Harrison was still eradicating these cultures. Right so to me. That was like okay. Like there's not a whole lot of molecules do this. And that's what got me pretty excited about this compound. That is so cool is really really cool. We're going to set a record for the number of times we say that. So I think gosh so. That was all in E-coli so that's finding good but it's lab straining coli so the next question becomes does it work in clinically problematic species right. So if can we take isolates at our multi-drug-resistant club Sihala Avenida b-actor staff mycobacterium tuberculosis. Like these types of bugs. So we asked does alison retain activity and multi-drug-resistant versions of all of these really nasty pathogens and it death we observe that it had it retained activity multi-drug-resistant so carbon Panam resistant bacteria see. I write major multi-drug resistant. Ask after Bomani. I am RSA Mycobacterium Tuberculosis C. Difficile that is amazing. I get I don't want to just say that. So cool again but like Oh man so when we saw this became very Obvious but the next thing that we don't do is figure out how it was working and I kind of have book for how I like to figure out how molecules work and The first thing that I like to do is evolve resistance to it right because if you can evolve to something sometimes not all the time but sometimes it will put you in a direction to telling you what it's doing right. What what is the target? Have or something that was super cool and at the time slightly annoying occurred and And it was I in the laboratory In liquid culture over the course of thirty days I tried to Iran like Just like a typical evolution experiment in liquid media and I couldn't evolve resistance to allison course thirty days and the control experiment for that was ciprofloxacin rate So I ran the same experiment in parallel with Ciprofloxacin and over the course of the same thirty day experiment. I think we evolved Resistance TO CIPRO LIKE TWO HUNDRED. Fold some something like that like -rageous. Gosh so then. We also experiment where we try to evolve resistance on solid media and again we were unable to see colonies after seven days on halsted supplement media whereas we were able to get you know. Dozens or something on Cipro aren't so we wouldn't be able to play the evolution trick to figure out. How Allison was working. So the net Aren't sequencing right. We just asked. What is the cellular response when you take a choline exposed to Allison and What we observe very obvious transcription response. What was happening is cells were immediately down regulating genes involved in And Fleischer Bio Synthesis and it turns out that that's a very common transcription response when you dissipate the proton gradient across the settled plastic memory so it appeared based on a whole bunch of experiments that we did that. Halcion was dissipating that Proton gradient that is essential for viability across the of positive memory. So cells did not have that Proton gradient that is essential to do things like turn like flip. Gela Gel Motors couldn't turn eighty days so they can make ATP and you know That Proton gradient is important for moving like salyut across the membrane. It was like all these different functions that are dependent on this proton gradient. Weren't working that resulted in a loss of viability. I got that's amazing. So in terms of like having a very clear effect like a clear bacteriocidal effect on those cells. Would it have a similar effect or did you? Test for a similar effect on eukaryotic cells. So we didn't test specifically but we did put it in a mouse so we tested Halston to most models right so he tested it in an SEO b-actor Bomani is skin infection model and we also tested it in C. Difficile gut infection model. So the April Monte I model we set up an abrasion on the dorsal. Surface of mice will just on their back. We infected with able money and then we treated topically with house and we had six mice in the control group in six months in the treatment group and I think in twenty four hours or twenty five hours five of the six mice that received Gallison did the number of Seo Backer Bomani. I cells was below the limit of detection and in the control group. Are they had like ten to the eight cells per gram of tissue or something like that like it was a lot and then and then in the C. diff model we tested against both vehicle control group and Metronidazole and we observe that house in erotic hated the infection in mice over in within like I think it was four days? Something like that huge. Yeah yeah so that was cool but then after that right We have this model appear to work fairly well better than fairly well. I should say So then we wanted to test it on like a very large chemical library so We we tested it against the zinc fifteen database so the zinc fifteen database is a virtual repository of one point. Five Billion Molecules But instead of running predictions on the entire one point five billion We curated a hundred and seven million We predicted that. Would they had antibiotic like Physical Chemical Properties so then we ran predictions on that one hundred seven million on. It took us four days to run predictions on that and I actually did a calculation not too long ago so the the model jog through those molecules in four days and I calculated that if I had access to a hundred seven million molecules which nobody does and I- screened all day every day. It would take something I think. I calculated it was like fourteen and a half years. The screen that many molecules empirically. Oh Yari right. We are living in the future. This is a year teaching right so then it was when we rent predictions on the zinc. It was like a similar game plan as we did for the drug repurposing. It was Brun predictions take. The molecules are the most likely to be antibacterial and find molecules. That are structurally dissimilar from conventional antibiotics. Based on those criteria we were able to curate twenty three of such molecules for testing in the lab. Eight of those twenty three ended up working Against one of panel of different species of bacteria and two of them are actually really. Cool that we're continuing to study on both bacteria and they're both broad spectrum and right now those are at this stage of mechanism of action elucidation. So that's what we're focused on right now those two. Oh my goodness so then. What are the next sort of steps and does the fact that was that a choice that you used this this repository where you're maybe like further. Along in that drug development pathway was intentional and so what are the kind of next steps for Harrison? Yes so we're trying to design analogs of Alison That worked better against TB Because we saw like this really Rapidly bacteriocidal by activities. Tv or seeing if we can both increase its potency right so decrease the concentration of drug required to do that as well as Perhaps explorer chemical spaces around the core structure of in such that it can aggregate themselves even faster but also we have some late stage. Preclinical work that were aiming to finish up with. Allison so these would be experiments that would allow for an I. D Filing prior to hopefully moving into phase one if everything looks good and We've also recently started a large initiative leveraging this platform to find antibiotics against a wide via genetic spectrum of species so basically we took the top seven bacteria pretty much on the. Who Hitlist and we're trying to find. New antibodies since each of those using this machine learning approach in other similar ones as well. That's awesome so machine. Learning we are. I think Aaron and I are both completely won over like we're all in for she. Learning of and it seems like there are so many different amazing applications. Are there any drawbacks to machine learning? That you could shed some light on. Yeah so pros for drug discovery. Anyway it's cheaper. You don't have to run giant screens. It's faster four days versus fourteen years or whatever and you see you you can say quote unquote virtually asset. You know orders of magnitude more molecules than you could feasibly doing the lap right cons at least for drug discovery. It's way better to run predictions for molecules that have some biological activity and chemical spaces that the model recognizes sprite so imagine like a giant circle bright so though that giant circle is the chemical space of all the molecules that you wanNA run predictions on. Let's say and let's say when you train your model. It's like a tiny tiny little circle with Internet larger circle at like the bottom edge of it right. If the model has only seen like a very narrow substructure of the possible chemistry within the prediction space. It's not going to be able to do something. Called generalize very well right so the other another con I and I wouldn't even say it's a con. It's a more just something to be aware of is a. m. l. is like the epitome of like garbage in garbage out like if the data that you're using for training isn't pristine like and you have complete control over it. You don't know what your model is going to be predicting and that's something that I developed a very strong appreciation for an throughout the course of this project. Wow so I know your background is in kind of antibiotics more specifically but I wonder if you could just briefly talk about some of the other ways it seems like this type of machine learning could be used for obviously a lot. More than just antibiotic discovery. Oh Yeah for sure. So one thing that A team at MIT is gone. Now it's using this approach to find molecules for it right so antivirals is another obvious And something else that we're also working on is Building Algorithms not only to predict whether something is antibacterial or not but being able to predict the mechanism of action of molecule but like M. L. In general I mean it's permeated like every aspect of our lights. Great so like we have self driving cars and like what we WanNa Watch next on net flicks like that's all thanks to Amal algorithms right. So it's just natural that the M. L. is GonNa Permeate. Obviously you know biomedical research in Healthcare to if you pick your favorite biological problem. I'm sure you can a way that Amel might be able to assist if not now then some number of years when we get even better at this Thank you so much doctor. Stokes that was great. We are is it okay to say we are? We were stoked jokes. That's really good. Oh really though. That was phenomenal. How it's one of those ingenious things you know you're like how people didn't think of it. Well maybe they did but they didn't have the technology for it but right right it's amazing. It's so cool. It's so cool. Awesome well sources sources so I mostly leaned on a couple of books and That were great. One was called Miracle Cure. By William Rosen and this is such an excellent book that talks about the history of antibiotics. I loved it was really well written and another one was called big chicken as I mentioned earlier by Maryn McKenna and then I also read a book called missing microbes by Martin Blaser which talks mostly about sort of the overuse of antibiotics and their microbiome disruption so and there are a few papers that also post. I also used books this time which is rare for me but there are a couple of books. I found actually very useful and they have a lot more detail. If you're interested on the different mechanisms of antibiotics one was by Roseling Anderson at all that was the editors called antibacterial agents chemistry motive action mechanisms of resistance and clinical applications. And the other one. He actually has two books and I kind of used them. Both but one is more recent. It's by Christopher Walsh and Timothy. Wentzel wits called antibiotics challenges mechanisms opportunities. He also has one from two thousand three. That's antibiotics accident. Actions Origins Resistance. They're both great and then a number of papers if you'd like to read Jonathan Stokes paper. It's called deep learning approach to antibiotic discovery and we'll posted on our website as well We will awesome. Well thank you to blood mobile for providing the music for this episode. All of our episodes. Thank you again to Doctor Stokes. For coming on the podcast to tell us everything about their work and thank you listeners. For listening to the very long episode about antibiotics. If you made it this far you are. We love you. We love you even if you didn't make it as far we still love you. But they won't ever hear that so I know it's still exists air and the feeling is still there. It's true okay. Well until next time. Wash your hands you. Filthy Animals

penicillin Paul Ehrlich Ehrlich researcher Tim Antibiotics Bela Tim Antibiotics United States pneumonia Fleming apple gonorrhea PNEUMOCOCCAL Sultan Alam intern Gordon Cell Wall Cross Lipid Membrane Aaron Welsh Pepsico