20 Episode results for "Alan"
Alexa Truly is Your Personal Assistant
"Hey, how's it going? Happy Thursday. Terry here with your flash briefing. If you want Lexie to really be a true assistant and you want her to be able to move around your meetings for you, You can do that. As long as you have synced your calendar with your Echo device. Then Lexie literally can act as your personal assistant. So for example, you could simply Lexi Lexi move my 8 a.m. Meeting today to 1 p.m. And it's done just like that Lexie cancel my 10 a.m. Call and it's done just like that. So the key thing to make sure that you have synced your calendars with Lexi in advance. And you do that by going into the Lexi app going to settings and going into your calendar. And then you choose your account provide birth. And you connect you connect the account and then you just follow the on-screen prompts and you are all set. Now I haven't done this in a while, but I'm really thrilled to be able to give a shout out to a person that left a review for this voice in Canada flash briefing. This is Alan McHugh and he gives it five stars and he writes suggesting by far of seven skills in my daily briefing. He writes. I look forward to the voice and kind of flash briefing every day of the seven things in my daily briefing. It's the one I look forward to the most and delivers the the best content. Well Alan boy. What can I say? Thank you so much for those comments. They really mean a lot to me and I really appreciate the time you took to write that review page. And like I said, if anybody writes a review, I definitely want to acknowledge that here publicly because it took you some effort and I think that's the least that I can do. So, thank you so much Alan. If anybody else would like to leave a review you go off voice in Canada. C, and you'll see a red button right there. Have a wonderful day and I will talk to you again tomorrow. free cast. FM
Say It With Funny. Frank Santopadre, Alan Zweibel, and Alan Alda on Comedy
"Stories global networks have been helping hundreds of millions of viewers understand their lives their communities and the world around them from science and nature to food this episode of Clean Vivid with Frank Santo Padre and Allen's why bell is brought to you by are presenting sponsor discovery for more than thirty years I'm Alan Alda and this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating unexplained and unexplored Justin and his partner Emiliano Rupa will investigate historical legends unexplained unexplored doc I think that sometimes I've written for CEO's people who are not funny for living I but in all this time we haven't talked about communicating by way of humor and that's one of them it's one of the main forms I have af it seems to me are protecting themselves a little bit protecting themselves form the openness that you can get when you're laughing together interesting that you mentioned Vulnera- oh I have this feeling I don't have anything to back it up but I have this feeling that when you're laughing you're more vulnerable and folks who won't let only jokes but it's a mindset if your mind is in a place where nothing is funny or nothing makes you smile I what's the point I MM-HMM is not only jokes but it's a mindset of your mind is in a place where nothing is funny or nothing makes you smile I what's the Map Explorers Club member Justin for now uses rare match to solve some very intriguing mysteries in science channel's new series your Sunday November tenth ten pm on the Science Channel and on the SAIGO APP spent their lives finding the funny in the meaningful and meaningful in the funny I'm so glad to have you guys on the show that you know we talk about communication anybody who doesn't have a sense of humor who takes everything to literally or it's too Dour I just don't want to be near them I since he of communicating and I bet it is your still it's a great equalizer you know anybody that you can make laugh or who can make you laugh that's what I love right away then I won't mention any names I've done a lot of ghost writing for captains of industry and they're not used to that they're not used to being vulnerable right there used to being power players they're used to being people in charge then they think they have to convey a certain amount of control and you have to convince them that the audience will love you doesn't have a sense of humour who takes everything literally or it's too Dour I just don't want to be near them I'm serious it's a sense of humor is start with that before you get onto how am I going to make these people laugh get them to pay attention that's allons y bell and Frank Santo Padre Anes and powers the passions that drive our planet I think our listeners love exploring mysteries and one of the best ways to do that is to look at an old how do you you're on the same playing field and there's a connection is an immediate connection do you were you mistrust anyone that doesn't have a sense of humor yeah as a matter of fact I'm anybody who ain't going back to when I would teach comedy students are young standups. They thought that it was about the jokes how do I get the laughs. It's not about the jokes it's about connecting if you're vulnerable if you're self deprecating so would that mainly be the humor you'd right for them self deprecating would you have them deprecate other people believe it or not mostly self deprecating because I think there's something that allows the audience to relate as here's a billionaire owner of a football team and now he's going to try to make it cheapness cheapness yeah it was welcome but there is a form of comedy where you deliberately insult the person the roast and Frank Uber F- well you think of the Great Comedians that we've loved through the ages they were all vulnerable all made fun of themselves and even more so with generous enough to have the doc because you really release the worst you access the worst parts of yourself there's this the most mean spirited petty supporting cast make fun of them yeah whether it was yeah start with him Oh yeah with with his bad violin playing and an many of whom were on the roast what's the secret of a roast joke can you say anything you can say anything if you go for basically the best roast joke before I forget it for me ever in it's a simple joke was belshazzar following Freddie Roman at one of the friars roasts and what the guy's reputation is like Milton Berle Fisher sure he had a reputation for stealing everybody's jokes fief of bad gags right where something goes a different way how do you do it well you know something I have found through the years and perhaps you have to that roasters would get up and tell their jokes okay and then they would discard that index card Milton would got behind them off not gonna be extolling the virtues they know that they're gonna go for the jugular and the fact that somebody would submit themselves to that tells me that they could fries and put them in his pocket so he played along with the joke about himself you know I loved writing roasts I was thinking about that on the way over here it's it's just it's Cathartic what was it I don't remember he got up and he said Freddie Roman Ladies and Gentlemen Jack Ruby had a longer TV career. So you have to explain each time and I've gone through this dozens of times are you sure you want a roast testimonial dinner no we want a roast and they see one or two row jokes the F. about themselves and you have other people slaughter them that way yeah you have to know what you're getting into and it's funny too because I'm sometimes approached again by corporations jokes in and of themselves yeah there's something formulaic about them but when you write scripts jokes take on a different uh other things than make jokes Alan you write plays you write books so we don't only have to talk about the idea of joke that even even in Umer you WanNa do a roast is this happened to you oh that's when when they find out that actual blood will be drawn Dave run miles from the idea corporate setting where people could take offence or take something like Syria sub or lose a job but you don't know what are they changed their minds quick a charter to me you the character in a play can be thinking something and when his or her thinking comes to the surface that's enough for it to be funny see there well we are here we're creating characters who say funny things and if you think about Jack Benny Legend has it you can correct me if I'm wrong that the longest the more the audience laugh because they knew he was the cheap guy who was thinking it over right you know but always written jokes in character we've always written jokes for people and they run for the we'll do a testimonial dinner and just happens time and time again they don't really know what they're getting into they like the idea of it but and there was the joke that got me the job on SNL and Lorne is the first to save that is I'd written a joke to show you how long ago it was the bunch of those I've look they know what they're getting themselves months they should they know that this is GonNa be you know they're going to be you know flowers form because it's out of the mouth of character okay so if you know somebody and you know who they are they'll make you laugh and you know it's always think oh you had to be ability because I think being vulnerable makes you a better comedic performer hotel about that that's interesting the to know who's talking you know frank is GonNa talk that seems to me the hardest or the shorter pithier once all you had dinner that time that I when I laugh and a history of radio came out of Jack Benny Silence Okay your money or your life and the longer he didn't say anything as from the reference points saying that the post office is about to issue a stamp commemorating prostitution the United States it's ten cents stamp how did the roast ease take it depends I mean it depends on their sense of humor the friars roasts and you wrote on a bunch of Friars Road I was on a funny commemorative stamp and I'm going I came upon prostitution and then I'm going okay that's funny where's the punchline and my God I take the stamp out to dinner I I had all these different variations of what to do with a prostitute stamp addition for Saturday night live I gave Lorne Michaels a book that had eleven hundred jokes that I had written in it while eleven hundred literally all that good that must've taken and then when it went okay when you lick it okay before I came up with a quarter I had I had to stamp moaning right that's not the same as a joke where their story jokes and there are one liner jokes and they're all all different kinds of jokes with the ones that are rose have you analyst we couple together I think really years ago before I got the job with Saturday night live I used to write for a lot of stand up comedians prize but it's inevitable and that it's it still makes sense you've skipped enough steps that it comes at you from left field yeah the element of surprise nineteen seventy five that that's really interesting how did that happen well it was nineteen seventy five and it was we will coming upon the bicentennial in one thousand nine hundred seventy six that's exactly that bad gags o o of fear of bags I never heard that he would as as the even as a professional would not suss that joke out own that's interesting you should say that because I'll watch a play a watch a movie or watch a stand up comic a week a little bit and he they would joke that I had written for all those cats guys and then just just pure joke writing from what makes a joke how do you go about making a joke and and by the way I know you both if you WANNA lick it it's a quarter okay it's still a great line okay so he read it and he went good good and he closed the book want to be surprised you think this he go thank God he didn't do this he did that and go out that's new you're watching a ping pong game while we're laughing at comedy that's exactly right what do you think about the idea that does it depend on the circumstances or is that always true I don't think it was always true I I think you may disagree but as I look back months ago and he's one of those guys who refuses to perform at colleges anymore it's like walking through a minefield anything that you say they went the other ten thousand and the one thousand nine hundred nine jokes but that joke took a couple of weeks to right I think of that joke to this day I don't know I don't know if it came from you Allen nobody will soon people often taking umbrage for another group yeah that's exactly right we overextend ourselves to protect other people yeah that's a joke where you you you you almost kick yourself for not seeing it coming yeah yeah credit goes to the writer because you fooled me right right there are jokes that a group can tell about themselves but if somebody outside the group tells a joke it's offensive aft and then you went home now those days are over as a long gun I ran into Chris rock about two three the or that's funny yeah at least acknowledges it was supposed to be true exactly means I heard you so if you look at that that's part of the joke what could be the next the next stats and you and it seems like part of a good joke to me Don I've always wanted to talk to the water you skip a couple of steps and the third is logical but it's inevitable yeah but it's it's a structure to here the audience laughing in your head yeah one ranked one hopes sometimes sometimes you know it's funny but and I'm sitting there and I'm going all right where's he going and I hope he doesn't do an try to predict where the compensation where the dialogue where the joke is and you always the view audiences it's a strange thing because they're not conditioned they're not really expecting jokes right they they see it as an issue show so the post office was indeed issuing commemorative stamps for the bicentennial said okay that's a good area what would be Michael you know when you do make everyone laugh while that's unusual but by and large is like Oh that's hysterical was write it down let's move onto the next joke it's poor people exactly I mean I know that writing joke that in and of itself has a punchline at the end is a hotter form it it seems much people who really know joke making the see how this lands on you it's a logical step but it's not the next step it's like a stone on started out in burlesque was a straight man and burlesque told me when I was nine years old and we were starting to do sketches together when we were growing up everyone was fair game for everyone you told Polish jokes you told gentle Joe will tell Jewish jokes and then everyone there's some undis- disarmed logic to what you said but of course it's not worth they took it as a barrel of wisdom instead of being philosophical does she wears her her Apple Watch show and she saw she saw my line come up on her watch so she said it and it didn't get less so show is on the view and something came up that I thought was funny and I texted her what I thought was funny line and they they're there for the lively conversation or the celebrity banter but I think that's and I've been there six years so I think sometimes jokes take them by surprise so other times you actually hear laughter thank you hear laughter and then you put it in front of it and audience and they tell you whether or not you're crazy make sure you believe in the material and make sure that you're having a good time yeah because psychologically they can sense you struggling they can sense your lack of faith right part of the work product in a way to you when you when you come up with a good line whether it's joker comedy character line do you very yeah just felt oh he doesn't like the resents the political correctness of college campuses and won't perform at them anymore so that he said if you know it's funny they'll no it's just a little confidence that you have right that's profound I should tell that to my comedy students what what's wrong with when people don't tell the joke right is there a good way to tell a joke lack of economy is for one thing yeah yeah a few analysts with a guy opens his store the first customer comes in she says I'd like to talk to my husband he says okay here's my rate list for five dollars about ventriloquist can't get work anymore I love this story he goes to his age and he said I'm dying I can't eat you're not getting any work I'm the in America that's funny and then and then there's a lot of acting out of the this this is a problem S. ventriloquist in the world you don't know what I can do I'm incredible the guy says I can't get you a job there's no variety shows on television they're all gone I can't get your job Celeb- brings up a question in my head I a lot of people they must come up to you to a lot of civilians come up to Nia joke and it's usually a long story for your recognized long story where something happens and then I underwrite the delivery was terrible sometimes it's just the it's the venue hearings they are also dependent you're dependent on the person delivering it stacks the main problem with humor there's a middleman right alby with somebody who doesn't think what I said is funny and instead of laughing or smiling they say exactly hammer why don't you take up seances why would I do that he says because you can throw your voice you can tell people to talk to their dead realm questions like did the Mayans migrate to Florida or is there a ship from the time of the renaissance buried in the California desert in science channel's news it wasn't a delivery was the audience giving Mirella way route cut you break my father who st and talk to your dead husband for ten dollars he'll talk back to you for fifteen he'll talk back to you while I drink this glass oh gee to find out. If Historical Legends True Did the Knights templar settled in America before Columbus was there a plot to steal the raise unexplained and unexplored Justin and his partner Emiliana Ruprah will investigate these mysteries and more they'll use rare maps and modern technology. I love exploring mysteries as much as I do whether they're mysteries of the human heart or mysteries of the world around us one of the best ways to explore the world's mysteries Justin four now feels the same way as a member of the World Famous Explorers Club Justin has access to rare and ancient maps that he studied closely to solve mysterious entered dot org slash power dash connection that's all the center dot org slash power dash connection would make people uncomfortable I think our listeners other using improvisational exercises and that really gives the solid foundation for real communication and in our power connection workshop women are you know if you tell me a Jewish joke I'll laugh or not based on the number of it I don't think that you're an anti Semite may more than sometimes is to look at a map especially one from long ago the details can be absorbing and who knows they could hold secrets like buried treasure well to hone their ability to navigate power dynamics to deepen their connection there authenticity there are thirty and work to handle difficult conversation nations they leave the workshop ready to better advocate for themselves and for others and they're now genuinely connected in new ways and ready to continue with the yeah well don't they say comedy writers won't give you the laugh they just say that's funny that's absolutely right it's part of the jargon and go okay it almost becomes When we come back frank and Alan and I talk about how far you can go with joke worked together long past the workshop join us for this one day workshop December sixth in New York City learn more sign up at all? You don't have to go through all seven doctors before delivers the punchline okay so you went to years ago he had an article and he described the comedy writer as a two headed monster one was the head went through the impolite real funny comes from real pain from from from being or or from being a genuine social misfit you agree with US emerges and it sort of just like hovers above the first head and makes fun of the life that this head is living that's interesting interesting involves facing the truth of something bringing the truth to the surface that everybody else says well we we know that but we're not going to bring it to the surface because that would life got caught in traffic went to the went to a doctor and whatever and then all of a sudden unannounced them without provocation the other head this is clear and vivid and now back to my conversation with Allen's wife Belle and Frank Santo Padre I was wondering if you guys had some insight into this 'cause you've rid fashioned lives and that the all center for communicating science we're focused on building connections and effective communication to address some of these challenges food and lifestyle and now the world's biggest sporting events in greatest names in travel documentary films the discovery family proudly informs enter and for many Comedians and is a myth about comedians that they're morose is that true think because comedy to some extent in the power connection workshop participants sharpen their ability to communicate in professional environment and during the course of the program participants connect with the the people I mean Groucho is a miserable guy you know chaplain was a miserable person I've never met truly funny well adjusted person in comedy or in Lisi Anna purchase just an Emiliano will follow the clues and the answers will surprise you unexplained unexplored premiers really cool idea I think he called it the right comedy writer schizophrenic or something like that and I won't before I married Robin I had her are you walking around the jokes hate jokes I can only remember one joke in and I've told it to so many people there's no point selling it anymore you know the Sunday November tenth at ten pm on the Science Channel and on the SAIGO APP you know it's clear that women still face challenges in there something to the psychology of of people who are actually going to go up and do the selling I think there's a re- writer has a different mentality different makeup Neil Simon many enlightened comedy or life I've never met somebody when you seem sort of normal to me you know I'm also not a performer I think there's read that I said this is what you're going to be living with that was so nice a- Neil Simon Neil Simon Wow can I call them don ha ha you got to develop in stages with everybody little one Mac did the image of using a stamp what happens when you use a stamp you lick lick so those it's going to happen three times before we get to the end and then he went to another doctor and the doctor said that he went to another doctor and the doctor then she'll come in with a thousand rolls of toilet paper from Cosco wherever the hell she was and she goes can't you help me and I'm going can you see them working but it is day I'll be sitting there like this in the living room that looking morose rose yes next time on clear and vivid the joke making at least in this part of our conversation includes breaking social norms saint talking about things that other people find untouchable because his his a thing with Larry and people like him but if we're talking about Larry there's an interesting duality here because he's all in conversation how do you keep contact with the person you're talking to how do you know that you can go so far with this person I think David Letterman always made me laugh on if you with me on this as e in a way that Jay Leno did not I'm with you totally because unreal that that there's some crossover there between him and the character this isn't that part of what makes him so look variant yeah and what he does is he takes a minutia and he makes a sega out of it you know and watch that show the most taboo topic he was breaking norms it he's that you think that's what you're doing you might not have analyzed it that way but on reflection about somebody who died on nine eleven yeah and was into the towers he was on a bike and bus them uptown okay asked or or you know almost bridge burner yeah during the daring to essential part of comedy or the joke the idea of burning a bridge Tina Fey said to me on on this show once that amy poehler had told her that she thought an essential part of comedy Shinde you think that's what you're doing with a lot of jokes on reflection I think yes I mean look at my friend Larry David you know hold an episode on curb your enthusiasm since nine eleven and in the cold open there was mayor Giuliani and a bunch of firemen and policemen. You're you're being sociable with as a good question that's there's a little bit of outdoor you know feeling out is a little bit of a dance I can go this far maybe they laughed okay buck and go a little further but there is a little bit of of dance that's played there was a great example of that I think he just goes another way with it you know and so that's very interesting to me because I'm so interested in how we relate to another how we are on fifty seventh street was nowhere near the towers well he's turned it into an art form and most most questionable topics the most challenging to them and you spoke a little bit and then asked me a Giuliani he said listen are we allowed to be funny and Giuliani said the whole thing about too soon is I always think would what year what did the job come into existence other a wonderful question can you you can like something and yet not necessarily can you like a joke and not necessarily respect the point of view I start now clever okay my guess is Lauren wrote that Okay and there was the acknowledgement to you know win are we allowed sensitive enough to know how we feel about things so he's in touch with feelings and then he takes it and then he puts his own twist on answered to one another's feelings and both of you guys have that ability and yet you both are experts at joke making and we're talking about how that about pedophilia now you're not allowed to great joke yeah there is a sort of duality though yeah yeah I don't like kicking down you know I don't I don't like it and they did a tribute about nine eleven and it was very very you know straightforward somber and then Lauren walked up F- again how can we laugh again is it okay and that broke the ice you know so ones that was an awareness of what the audience going through quiz in guys remember it once again right after nine eleven about a week or so later Saturday night live came on for the first time he's not not it's not a very sophisticated form of humor and that gets into the question of being sensitive to other people jokes that make fun of of of people who can't defend themselves or I don't I don't think the handicapped and people like that are worthy joke targets right Played about what they have to face as they go through life to another handicapped person might register as oh use leading to other people let the question I brought up a minute ago about a j- joke that a handicapped person might Formula One guy to me and unimpeded nitrogen trying to disparage him is is a sort of a get along guy and the other guy is an iconic us than and Oh some wonderful by some of the life of a disabled person that same joke made out of the blue by nine handicapped person yeah I'm a big believer in in in using humor to to to take people down or level the playing field and these and laughing at life's unfortunates to me can you do can you be successful as a comic if you don't develop a character I think it's hotter because the jokes war I had an uncle who fought for the west terrific It seems really so when I had him say never got any respect even as an infant my mother wouldn't breastfeed me she said she liked me as a friend got might seem offensive yeah I don't like I don't like put down a bunch of people who I think are a disenfranchised or powerless important for some comedy to work that the comedian has to have established a character in the mind of the odds it's not like he's skating on the surface it's not a sociopath not Soviets connected that's exactly right he's connected to what he feels what we all feel we all feel and then or where it's coming from admire the craftsmanship of craftsmanship that while that well written joke offended me you're not allowed professionally but it went up seven dollars used to be thirty pieces of silver your success is dependent on the jokes but who's saying it yeah okay so where's the identity where's the identification with a person so back to when I would teach comedy students are young stand ups they thought that it was about the jokes they would always come in you've done you've taught young young people you've worked with young comics that's that's not or you are you able to respect all well made humor or well-made jokes what's a great point him had written for him that I'm not sure how many may have gotten laughs from other people in themselves but because it was this character a character isn't just what the character tends to think or say but it also seems to contribute to the style of delivery while you're relating again went going the how do I get the laughs what are the jokes and it's not about it's not about the jokes it's about connecting it's about finding a persona or or or an the Nazis Lincoln did you enjoy the show's not eighteen seventy wasn't that tragedy like what I used to do was when I use the right for those guys if one guy wouldn't do the joke didn't matter because I'd give it to another guy and sell it to him for seven dollars which is what they would pay talking about the structure of joke a little bit and now you're talking about how no matter what the structure of the joke is it's going to be a better joke this time the band's breaks right yeah is there a kind of humor you you don't have to name names but is there a kind of humor that you really don't like success I failed here I the first thing out of your mouth that's exactly right so it's Larry David I remember back in the day Larry you would get on stage this is at the improvisation where the audience was mostly on a Friday night Saturday night suburbanites okay you know a Paisley and you know Velcro in leisure suits and stuff and I would sit in the back because he was my friend and I just admire Makamba writer this was a decision that was made for me about forty
"Prepare your is humans happy. Sad confused begins Today on happy. Second fused our older on communicating and his new film marriage story. Hey guys I'm Josh Horowitz. Welcome to another edition of happy. Said confused the true icon. That is Alan alda. I can't we all just in my office. Sammy I can still feel I'm here Sammy. Of course back on the PODCASTS. For I don't know three or four of the last episodes stimson here. Yeah it's a little known in fact about Sammy. She has no ability in English and history. But Yeah Alan Alda was just here. He's someone like I'd never even fathomed would be on this podcast. I don't think Donald is a real a real person that's made his major the keys too big for this. They'll clearly. It was horrible decision. The moment he's all you know we had a good time. He has a podcast. It's worth listening to. I've looked I've been listening since I knew he was coming vice. Ace Voice. Clear and vivid is the podcast. And you heard me saying the intro about communication. This is kind of passion of his life which is how we communicate in all all forms whether it's with loved ones or scientists communicating with each other politicians artists. He is obsessed with how we communicate and how we can communicate better her and in this podcast. I'm putting his podcast more than my own. But it's a good one. Oh everybody stopped listening to that. One's podcast he talks to people in all aspects of life. And it's a really cool array of guests definitely check it out and as you said he's got one of the best voices in the business comforters. Moving I think so. He came in here not necessarily to promote the PODCAST. That we do talk about that. But he's also in the new film marriage story which is from writer director or Noah Baumbach who you may know from good in the whale Greenberg a whole bunch of great movies this latest. It might be my favorite of his which is saying a lot It's definitely it's one of my top three or so the year for me. It's really great. They just say this early. Are you GONNA stick pick up there. I'm pretty sure I want to go back and see it again. It stars Adam driver to Hanson. And it's kind of a story of really divorced. I it's a it's a couple of separating they have a kid and how they are dealing with the all the complexities of splitting up including lawyers and custody etc.. It's real it's really funny. It's really sweet yeah great performances. Adam driver I. I is a real contender to win. Best actor for this. I think he's all he's like. The King of Christmas season this year he yellow. He's got that in Star Wars. Yeah yeah he's everywhere in the Amazon one two. Oh Yeah the report which is also good. The report is worth checking out to. He's great he's really great in an and Scarlett one of her best performances too. I think she'll be nominated. Or dern is great. I think not to get all to award see but I think she's she could win for supporting actress. There's a lot of potential uh-huh and all the plays at drivers attorney in the film Worden's kind of the attorney on the other side and he's great in it and he's just uh-huh yeah it's kind of a character that has a bit of that Alan alda folksy kind of persona but is also still the distinct thing for the other stuff. He's played so this is a delight. He's so easy to talk to tap dance. He did not. Do you see that video right before he walked in hoping you would see it and realize this is what people want to talk about. So what was it that was him and his granddaughter. Yes tap dancing in his garage so what. I don't understand why he didn't ask him about you or your rival podcast in the office next door. That's actually grabbing all my guests as they walk out it'd be like okay. Let's do a real one now dabbled in tap. Let's talk well. I wanted to leave room for our next conversation. Smart actually but he is an inspiration. He's eighty three years old old. He is so he's so busy he's he's sharp as a tack. He's he's he's he's doing acting podcasting writing he does it all and and he is an institution that I want to be around forever so so thrilled to have Alan alda on the show. Today I should mention marriage story is out in theaters in New York. But it's also going to be on net flicks December sixth. So you have no excuse guys December six. You can watch it in the comfort of your own home That being said if you're in New York probably wait to see you in on a big screen. It's worth that's all I got Sammy. Now that's enough. That's enough right. You don't need to talk before Alan Alda's coming care people were here you for the Aldo. Yeah they're not here for US chitchatting all right. Let's get to the main event Mr Alan alda remember to review rating subscribe to happy. Sad confused. Spread the good word and please enjoy this chat with one and only Mr Alan alda funny to say the Sammy was thinking of on the down about to be on this part your data good. They interviewed me for an hour at the SHAG. Please okay. This'll be easy little channel or like an hour twenty any. This is your life all right. They kept saying. I don't remember that part of fair. I've seen some interviews with me. Thank you got the your read very much in taxes. Or How's it going good. Let me turn this off thrilled. The happy here today Sir thank you. I don't know I don't know in existence without Alan alda in my life. This is Mickey Mouse. Walking into my office how dare you you that as a compliment as it came out I was like wait. Is that a compliment. Yeah Pluto would. That would be. Okay okay sorry. Pluto just walked into my oldest But congratulations on. I mean there's lots of cover but first and foremost most president my mind is this wonderful performance and film. You're part of which is married. Story congrats aggressive. Well thank you. I'm very proud to be part of that movie. I think it's a wonderful movie really unusual. Yeah no bound. Back is a special talent. I mean I've been a fan right from the start but this might be his best work which is saying something. We'll talk me I. You're now a podcast in recent years. That's right you you have me beat. You've been doing it for a few years. I've been listening to a bunch of them. Oh that's nice thank you. I love doing this show. And we've we've done it for about a year and a half and and must have had seventy conversations in that time with the most interesting people are very wide array. Could've you could've run the gamut more. No I really try. Friday get a wide variety of people because world talking about pretty much one thing but as it applies to every aspect of life. Yeah which is communication and the way we were late to one another so that therefore. It's good to talk to Mike Mike when and as a life visit. It's trying to tell us something a so. The idea that we have people from different different walks of life. Yeah means that Judge Judy has something to say about relating. Yeah so does George Mitchell Madeleine Albright Yoyo Ma. Michael J. Fox has a different and that the the hostage negotiator from the FBI. Chris Boys Amazing where you live was podcasting something. Were even aware of before you dove in. Oh sure I I've heard podcasts. I'm a bum sort of nerd. It seems like you're very much on the cutting edge. A lot of people like kind of like their life contracts. I feel like your life hasn't hasn't contracted you're very keeps expanding. I fifteen or twenty years ago my friends would give me their computers to repair her side. Business Times I could repair them just by thinking I'd say try pressing that button but it would I show is jokingly I started signing my emails to them Celebrity tech support and the slogan was wild. And nobody touched your stuff. I'm immed- bragging. Rights was fixed by multiple. Emmy Award winner makes you really fixed. Makes the printer. Really they do. It's thing but I I joke about you coming in and kind of being like this larger than life personality you are. I would imagine someone. That is very approachable. Like you you you know whether we go back to mass what you were literally in all our homes for eleven years and like the most watch. TV At the time to all of your varied work you project project a very open personality as that been something. That's is that a burden for you walking the streets of New York for many years as you have. No you know the older. I get the more respectful people are who recognize me in the beginning. It was very hard to be famous. Yeah because people would grab at me and then with one hand. They grabbed me with the other hand. They'd point and say hey fred look what I got. Got One of them celebrities. God's somebody actually said that at once. You're lucky weren't kidnapped. Who knows where are you going to end up so I had to get used to it but I I always thought now then then I want to be the person that I am and not have to personas right if that's more work to have to? Yeah yea and it's it's something fake about it right but it's hard because people understandably nobody knows you accept that people know you you really well so known as an Avatar yes so I don't I don't I don't want to live my life as an Avatar Avatar will be me. That'd be my Sean Rica. Are you MICRA. You have an officer in the city still you said you AH. So what's what's a typical go into the office often like what's your shelled them. Go into the offices. The offices mainly for the people were to you. All the communication vacation training company. Was You have a lot of different hats you can wear a lot of different pursuits. So is that feel like it keeps. You keeps your mind active so that you can like whether one day. It's you know when you keep trying to do new things things you haven't done before you you're literally like a kid 'cause you starting out and I do get pleasure out of doing what I know how to do it. I think that's one of the great pleasures in life is to do Oughta do but the second pleasure not as much fun sometimes because you have to work right thanks to learn a new language learn a new trade and I had this idea ten or twenty years ago that we could probably train scientists to be more more connected to the people they were trying to communicate with everybody. They're trying to communicate with the public right other scientists funders policymakers makers and turns out. It is possible we've been training them for ten years. And we've trained fifteen thousand scientists piston physicians and they there most of them get transformed by the workshops and and we start with this unusual thing of of teaching them exercises. Improvisation comedy when not making the actors are comics right and that sometimes they get a little they get that frown. You have on your face right now. It is a way Improv. What do you watch this? Wait a minute but all it really does put them in contact with another person in a way not used to being where you really listen. You really begin to have empathy with the other for what the other person is going through and if you have that if you can develop then as then you can speak to. What matters to them if you know so if you have some curiosity about what does matter to them? You can speak to that now did you. Don't tell them the truth about which have to say but that you can put it in a way that engages them right makes them want to know more. I mean this is really the common theme that I mean the more I read about union any more I hear from you that runs through your life which is communication. And how we in all its facets where does can you trace back where this fascination comes from did you you go all the way back to childhood. were in terms of like were you not able to communicate with friends and family. Or what's what's the connection there you. You think the two things one is my mother unfortunately was schizophrenic and paranoid that was hard to live with and I had to had too often try to figure out if what she was saying was reality or just hurry -ality so there was a little bit of reading the other person that added Guan there so I could get through the day and not feel that I was trying to kill her the way she thought I was from time. The time you know The the other thing is I do remember. I don't know if it's an outgrowth of what I just said or just was a separate thing. I remember as a kid. You know six seventy even younger wondering what was going going on when I was sitting at a table with a bunch of adult Why why did he say that her? What did he mean by that? What's that phrase day you? What's that tone? The voice now. What's going on which is really now in a way what we teach people to to do to communicate communicate to read the other person right? I sometimes wonder what do you what he knew you. You may be more in touch with young kids. Do you think that kids is that age are sitting with adults now listening to them trying to figure them out or they just on their iphones. I think it can't be denied that there is more opportunity to section ourselves. All I think I think there's always going to be elements of is. I don't have kids myself but I see my nieces and nephews that they are they pick up on more of what's adults are saying thing then. I think the parents ever think they got an ear going while the right but I mean the the concern I think many of us have right is like we don't we won't know for another thirty years. In the first generation that has come glued to that phone and that device the next generation will have huge thumbs. I hope it's that's the biggest problem. Yeah but I'm I'm curious like so you you talk about kind of like eavesdropping on the adults in your world did you live in. Did you feel your dad. It was a performer successful actor. Were you exposed primarily. Were you living in a more of an adult world. Then a kid's world because of being on his sets. Let's see in the theater. I think I did live more in an adult world because when I was from the time I was born till I was about seven we were traveling around. From one city. To another and my companions were burlesque comics and nightclub comics and yeah I didn't know many kids so it kind of stands to reason. I try to figure out what the adults are saying. What they mean gene by what they're saying yeah 'cause they'd often talk in joke talk pride? The private language of burlesque was had a had a really. I thought that that was the world I thought the world was made up of entertainers and civilians. Who are unfortunate Senate? People that didn't get down to ten. Did Your Dad convey a love of what he was doing. was He frustrated or happy. Or what when. No he was always happy he was well he he got anxious later to great success in lifing. His first movie was playing. George Gershwin in the film biography called rhapsody the and blue seven years later he did play. Delete in guys and dolls on Broadway masters. These were two really important in jobs at the end and for the rest of his career. He didn't get to do things that were interesting right and he was soon. Yeah he was very anxious about that. Was it odd for him when I don't know when he passed but like he lived long enough to see. Oh yeah that's right. He was on mass. Wasn't going mashed twice once in the show. I wrote and directed. I must've amazing. Yeah was it. was that an odd. Because you know as you say he had the he reach these heights and then like any actor like many actors rather say they struggle may be too strong a word but he probably we wanted to everybody right there. I don't think there's anybody who doesn't go through ups and downs in the career sometimes just ups and down. And that's it I always remember Katherine Hepburn. Who when she was only twenty four had a headline about her variety variety? It said Katherine Hepburn is box office. Poison twenty four. She's over. She lived into her eighties. Still playing lead in big movies. Yeah but at twenty four. They were telling her she was finished. It's a fickle business. Yeah well it's funny because obviously testament to something like marriage story or I could name off like a half dozen recent roles in the last five six years that we all grew up watching your work so I think the next generation is casting you because they appreciate your work Were you ever worried that it was going to dry up as you. Don't worry no no no I. I didn't worry for the nine years. Always trying to become a working actor and almost never got work very rarely got word. The evidence was the evidence I was getting was that I wasn't going to get anywhere but I didn't. I didn't pay attention to my a desire. Why my confidence for some reason? I had confidence that I'd somehow make a living connector and that's all I wanted right just able to live. I had A. I had a worked out at a young age. I wanted to work with other actors who I respected in material respected. Yeah Yeah in front of an audience that got it. And I've been happy would have been happy to do that in a regional theater and who knew that I'd be doing just that. Ah in front of millions of people eventually. Yeah but that just as the way it happened. I didn't I wasn't aiming for that wasn't trying to make that happen. When you look back at the was eleven seasons I believe of Mash? Is it all together. I mean that's a huge section in one's life and you accomplished it amazing amount there her. I never look what I've done already so I used to be if I were passing by a station that was on mash when I was turning the dial dial whatever we do Preston user minds the chase of town. Yeah right I would. I might watch it for for a few seconds and think no. Did I direct this that I write it i. I used to know the ones I had written and directed then. I'll only remember the one giant ridden ridden and now. I'm not even sure that. But that's I mean for those that don't remember or know that particular aspect that's that's really something like to put in context that's like if like Bryan Cranston suddenly started to write indirect like a dozens of episodes of breaking bad. Like that doesn't happen. That's very rare day damage on a lot of shows especially shows around a long time. I guess but you but you I mean you're a huge creative force in that show and not as much much is the myth on the interrail indicates. I didn't tell people what to do. To producers the data I would make suggestions and once in a while only be taken up. Yeah but I wrote about twenty or twenty five shows. I directed about thirty eighty five or I know somewhere in there. Put the work. I didn't as a writer and a director was my work. Yeah but everybody else's work was there's ears right and I really didn't. I didn't feel as Mike placed interfere with other people's decisions. Did it feel because you were all you you were also on. TV At a time generally speaking when TV and film felt separate seemingly and that. That's has board especially Ashley in recent years but you I think Santa Part like you were kind of. Can you tell me you were able to go back. And forth from directing films films a few years after marriage was on the air was able to use the off time in the spring to act and other movies which was who's maybe helpful in not being typecast. His one one character right But also gave me the chance to work with other people and learn more and have a go at other kinds of material so we we. We started started talking about again kind of recurring theme of all your work. Which is communication so onset? What do you what do you want out of a director? How much communication education do you want to? You want to be directed. Do you WanNa talk a lot to the director. You know. Very few directors give direction the way the public imagine. No no director Almo- almost no director. Who's any good would say? Say the line like this. They don't even say stand over here checkpoints points on the while Very often they she woods coming out of you and they make something that they can out of that. If you totally off base you don't have the you're right. You're coming in from left field. They'd toss a few hints your way right. I don't like hint so much as a plain spoken. Just just tell me what you need to tell me if my wrong neither do I not get it. Is it possible to learn as seem. It's happened to me several times. I've seen it happen to other actors where you think it's about something that it's not about or that your character is trying to achieve something that he's not trying to achieve. It's really good to have had somebody let you in on that. That's seems an important note my in the right movie just my God. I'm supposed to be a universal right. The wrong what. You're you're in three of my favorite woody Allen Movies to be those pictures crimes and misdemeanors like top ten. And it's just a thing of genius and I know it again putting words in your mouth something but I think you appreciate which is this. It's a combination of comedy drama and fines and Segue to know about back in the second on that but That was your first collaboration with woody. And you know speaking about communication he's infamous for not really communicating those days. Anyway he didn't talk. We've talked more. They'll do that. It was very respectful very courteous. He just he just feels. I think he felt more comfortable. I'm not talking. And didn't try to impose on on the and he liked improvisation which made me very happy because I loved improvise. What was that was that? was there some Improv on a misdemeanor you try to work in this line that I have in this scene. 'cause they use use it later. Okay yeah no he. He was very free. That way was a I. Read somewhere your past collaborator Larry. Gelbart might have been an inspiration in some way for that role. Is that fair to say was he. I don't think so I could be but I wasn't aware that I think You know in that in that that character carried little recorders around with them and would record his ideas in the middle of a conversation with somebody else right right little strange person. I met who actually did that. Was Steve Allen. Okay yeah who wrote about. Yeah Oh yeah but he would be writing them right in front of you get any about China talking into a little tape recorder. He just had material pouring out of very bright guy and he just latest brain. Go by that. I mean that'll be. Let it go no in in a good way. I know I remember. I was twenty years ago. I was in college and he came on. He did like our long interviews with me on my college radio show. He was distilling so generous. And still don't just like so present wanted a stunt on Vine Street in Hollywood yeah or sat in a window in department store window for twenty four hours straight without sleeping composing songs on a piano when after another he he can do everything he just would improvise song. And then he'd stop improvise another so amazing was I want to mention just could be people. Always mention crimes. Misdemeanors the miners. I have a real soft spot for everyone says I love you. I think it's such a sweet. Yeah I love that movie And you and Goldie or Sweden add. You're on the piano you're singing. What are your memories of of being onset of of that one? Did it feel like a that was a lot of fun and and I loved him when we did this song. I can't remember I. I can't remember if we did it alive. I think we I think Nicole is record really remember but I enjoy doing very much now and I. I really enjoyed the movie at Norton was actually just here last a couple of weeks ago talking about. Who is Edward Norton? Oh yes I know. He was great in that very very disciplined to go. He added dance routine ahead to do any constantly go off on the side. Starting dancing admired that so there is a direct money it should. We can connect woody to Noah Noah is kind of like in the line of of these kind of New York stories about relationships that combined comedy and drama and really get it the complexities cities of love and marriage That's really what marriage story is all about it kind of on again as I was thinking about talking to you today. Connecting the dots. It's it's kind of like the perfect movie for you because it's a movie about communication and yeah that's what I. I'm amazed at is right at this time. In my life life when I've written a book about communication I for ten years ten advisory trained thousands of these scientists to communicate better and this is a movie about two people who love each other yeah and therefore communicate pretty well and then the communication breaks breaks down and then when they get divorced they find out during the divorce Nafta communicate better than they ever did ever. Yes and that's that's such an interesting insight for the audience because you think I'll get a divorce end this misery especially if you have a kid you don't just end end things effortlessly. Yeah and it's about the the impersonal mechanics that go along with. Yeah and there era people whose business it is to get the most they can for their clients divorce lawyers and that doesn't always helped helped family right do you. Do you like your character like Bert. He's a you know I don't have an outside relationship with the judge I just don't Sure don't judge them and I don't I don't like them or dislike them my moisten favor of them. Whatever they want Taiwan right but when I look look at the movie I do all the work done on it is over? Yeah I do see an interesting combination of a guy with a lot of principals. Aw Who's not really making very well in the world now possibly because of his principles and then on the other side we have Laura dern who's kind of the all business take-no-prisoners the one you don't WanNa see across the courtroom you you get the the scene with breath and I heard their podcasts with Adam driver who's like oh he's great. It's just one of our best talents right. He's amazing amazing as an actor and really specialists the Persian. We've got to be friends immediately. And I admire him so much. He seems to have the right priorities about life in this business. Business sends is not in it for the silly fame stuff not at all no and he's able to do labeled the do commercial movies. Yeah and give them everything. He's got not look down on them but is still l.. A. Very serious person about his work and he he aspires to be an artist and is wondering if you know if we could reminisce ominous for a second about New York you were born in New York where were you. Where were you actually raised born in New York on Third Avenue and Thirty Third Street and kind and I was raised all around the country? Got It up and down the eastern seaboard and burlesque theaters. When you're traveling nightclubs across the country and then California when my father was in moving in Bank in New York so when did you move back here by the time you were in your teens or weight or I I wish but fifteen got it and you've always I mean obviously you've worked all around the world and probably a lot in la but has New York always been home base for you if not fifteen or twenty years or more? We lived in Maybe maybe twenty five or thirty years we lived in a small town in New Jersey brought her kids up. They're gotta does New York Today. Feel like an alien place compared to the New York of your youth. Does it feel like it's still no. It always always I it was it was a little different for a while when it was not safe to go into central park right in fact I have a head of friend at the time who was held up any kicked out at the person who lost his shoe. You as you said in the daytime depart belongs to us. Things have changed okay. So there's some stuff for the better. Yeah it's it's like because I used to work in Times Square and Times Square had been through every different iteration. Now well the Times Times Square when you when you drive through it it's like being inside a pinball machine. It's too much now. They used to be that one. You're too young to remember to know it that one the billboard of a guy blowing smoke smoke rings. You know you're talking about Hamilton that was about it and that was spectacular. I use it as a kid. I'd stand for in a long time. Just watching those smoke rings that was entertainment back in the day. Now one huge screen every building has has been turned into a TV set. It's too much and they come from all over the world to look at these screens. You know everyone just go there and you see a ten thousand people staring up. uh-huh running into each other. I want to throw out a couple of other directors. And you can. We can talk about how you've communicated with them and how you've worked with them How about David a Russell fording with disaster? Yeah I love that movie. He did a really great job. Great Movie Ben Stiller and I were in. It's take at the same time Yup and we hadn't ever met but we sorta bonded over the scene. We were playing as we were rehearsing machine. Each one of US started going under the I love you. Just make sense. In the performance getting subtler and quieter later got it going the other way and then he would go lower. And I'd Go Lor David. Russel's what are you. What are you doing? You're ruining the see this. She's not the way you rehearsed it. We were having making sure the less plenty of what we were doing. This did that end up is at the stuff that ended up in the field. Nine go back David's way but that's not I mean. He made a very funny movie very very engaging movie. You and Lilly a couple that I never would put on paper bag but that is part of the thing as much as you have a persona like I. There is an Alan alda type. You also have done an extraordinary range of performances. This is you kind of have been able to have your cake and eat it too where there is kind of I think if I said Alan Alda to somebody that conjures up certain kind of person but in yet like your oscar-nominated role in the etcetera like these are of wide array. Yeah well I always. I always aspired to be a different Persian Russian without the aid of a putty nobes. If at all possible show to me. That's harder. Would I think the actors I li- I like both kinds to be honest. I like the ones that will go can transform and go crazy but I think of someone like you like always talk one of my favorites of all time is like Gene Hackman. Yeah I think he's Wonderful Gene Hackman like and I count you in the same category there every word out of your mouths. I believe. There's nothing I it just feels very organic and you can make anything seemingly sound natural. which is I guess? The greatest gift an African can have well. I think it's an important element in enacting and it took for me. It comes out of relating well to the other person. You're right because if you're just reciting your lines the way you figured out you should recite them right before you even got on sat cetera before you heard what was coming at you. Then it's it's not going to seem more authentic. It'll seem like something that's been caned hand and prepared as additives in it so do you do then not in your own head before you get on set have a predetermined Determined way you're going to do something to you know that it's going to happen. In the moment I try to understand it right the intention the what the what the character once what's Happening in the scene where the purpose of the scene is right but understanding. It is not necessarily knowing how it's GonNa come out of you. I hope it comes Adam. If I do ten takes over comes out ten different ways. Yeah and then. I hope to director once that too. I think they probably view that as an asset in the edit room. You've given them options. Yeah and and and I've talked about this with no. We know Noah Baumbach was on my podcast. Oko Doc clear and vivid and he He agreed that sometimes he would do many takes because in one take maybe before five along. He says something start to happen that he hadn't expected that was different and fresh and then he would do more takes to see that would start to develop into something rifle blown. I like that. I like a lot of takes. I like long runs runs on Broadway because it gets better. Yeah I used to have to make a deal with myself on opening night play. Don't be depressed six months from from now when you're performances five times better than it is too late. Bright was Glengarry of exceptional experience. I've loved that I loved working with Liam. Yeah I mean he's again one of our best and now I get. Yeah of course doing Ray Donovan with him. Now that a guy that can do Shakespeare and do you. He's amazing do everything and the shame is true of Adam driver. Yeah it's it's really wonderful. What's happening with the profession? Yeah they're really skilled people coming in so you get offered a lot like. Do you get a lot of scripts that come your way. Now I get I. I don't know what a lot right had there you get enough I get I get get enough to turn things down there you go. That's all you. I feel like you can actually make some choices I don't have to do everything comes. So what so. Clear and vivid is the podcast and that continues news. Sounds like you're doing more podcasts than I am I feel as next to you do I wanna week. We'll show to why okay there you go as long as you keep going. I'm GONNA keep going. Okay okay now I we've done about seventy four shows. How many of you? I've done more bobby doing it for five years. So we'll start. Yeah that's that's that's okay. But that's not. I wouldn't say fulltime job but it is. You've got a lot of jobs but I'm curious. So the endeavor of that is that is that is that changing as you as you get more guests on or was there a current tension at the start of that the intention was and why it's called clear and vivid is that it's about communicating right and good communicating. I think should be both clear and vivid meaning right engaging commotion Little Cat captured the detention of the person you're trying to communicate via and the relating part is really important because it's like what I learn from acting if you relate to the other character. Yeah the other actor something happens between you. There's an exchange not just list of information but a feeling yes of awareness and that's to me an essential part of communicating and collaborating berating. Yeah you know it's not it's not communication isn't just delivering a good message right. It's developing a partnership with the person version. You're trying to communicate with right release a wave collaborating part of leadership and all of that and now I've talked myself out of the question. You always was the OH. The originally originally the original idea was to explore all of what I just said but in every possible Larrea of our lives we could imagine right music diplomacy dealing with hostage takers Christian. Petri leany talking about how he got two hundred people out of the Neo Nazi movement having been a member himself but learning how how through empathy to actually get them to turn away from the skinheads. That's a powerful story. The Judge Judy courtrooms owner very very interesting conversation with an UN- unlike what you'd expect you to be. Yeah Dr Ruth Right. I mean or can't ignore and I feel I and interestingly she's more she's more concerned now in this is part of her life with communicating above the covers and she was below the cubs right but she still talks. Frankly she's she's hilarious in and she she's he's a free spirit in the middle of the conversation which took place in her apartment. Her phone rang. She gets on the phone she says. Oh I'm here with Alan alda. She entered the phone twice net whole conversation multitasking at ninety. He's he's great. I I have to say your and your endless curiosity and excitement about all these things is very inspiring to. I also have to say I appreciate you know you can't you you decides. Let's talk publicly in recent years about your Parkinson's my dad has Parkinson's so so I appreciate he's had it for probably ten twelve years. There's and he's he's been one of the lucky ones you know. This is different for every single. I ride and every day's different. Yeah so he does. He have posture problems. Or Yeah I mean he he has like a tremor But and you know it may be impairs communication a little bit little bit slower but we kind of thank our lucky stars to be honest. Because you know it's been it's been pretty It hasn't been so progressive and the the theory and I think the practice practice the that it's been demonstrated that when you get a diagnosis. It's really important to start a serious specific specific exercise program not just general exercise but there are certain things you can do that will improve your mobility. Not much you can do. About tremors. Yeah but difficult. If you can keep yourself moving yeah keep your voice in better shape. I'm right now. My voice will little gravelly. Sounds better than me. Don't worry strong hand eye coordination in that kind of thing to then it hasn't I haven't lost that. It'll that's great that's great. I just just beat a friend to tennis for the first time in six months ago. Gladly couple hours hours ago. Perfect perfect as I said you're inspiring in every aspect of your life. Sir Thank you so much for sharing some time. Thank you who's fun talking and so ends another edition of happy. Sad confused remember to review right and subscribed the show on itunes or wherever you get your focus on the big pocos peasant. I'm David Lee and I definitely both oppression by John
Porsha Williams & David Alan Grier
"Welcome to the Bravo clubhouse for the podcast addition. Watch what happens. Live with me Andy Cohen. And you can always count on him to bring the funny and she was given the most controversial baby gift since the Bonnie. It's watch what happens with Porsche. Williams David John Alan grier now from your host. Sandy Cohen live with Robert Clubhouse with two guys who are the gravy on top of offense. tastic Thanksgiving weekend. The Phoenix has risen. And she's saying by ashes Mellon Abortion Williams. Everybody you laugh in living color and you'll be able to live and in person in a show soldiers play on Broadway at the American Airlines theatre. Starting December twenty seventh. Welcome back David. Alan agree with I should say Porsche. You are wearing a boot tonight. I am I had elected for surgery. The and I'm just so dedicated to calm. I can't even with a broken. Oh my God she's she's yourself while describing. How long can you take the boot off? I WanNa see what's under the guy. It was scary. You know really really it looks like Frankenstein's in wall. Christmas is twenty four days away. It always feels like Christmas warning when she's buying our bar download her new Christmas song with L. King under the mistletoe. Now now it is the lead singer of the Ron Robbie's faster this is jude right. So you're absolutely and Rati. You love four shy. I Love Porsche Allen I love you. He's my favorite but she eh poses a little porn and want to get started. Porsche Baby Pilar. Look so cute in sunglasses tonight during Jitterbug class you were waving a pride. The Fan with Vegan Vilson face. We've got some comments about it but what people don't realize is because I have this. Yeah faces on the other side art holding there probably. I felt like I was there with you. Yes I was. Yes anyway tonight. Married medicine when the men went to a strip club. David enjoyed himself a little too much. I need your opinion on this. David Watt. There's girls with no clothes on here already deal with the cow sequences Lower goodness what was a strip club women did she cut you know you think. That's okay so surprising you get mad at me because I treat you like a queen. Look Nice you look better our Goto. WWAFL for our first. Paul we WANNA know. Is it okay for a married man to get a lap dance yes or no Gad Alan Grier I need your absolutely yes. I'm GonNa give you the forensic breakdown. Okay this woman put something on this man's head okay. We did not see her. Take them rolls off her behind right so right on no yes. She was even wearing and he's in the right. He's in the right number. Two she said were these women but adds naked. They were not no they. Were not very good very close. Paul you guys are saying by Squeaker is okay. But she did lie when he said that they touch and he was like the first of all. I'm I'm going to a strip light you know what's going to sit your butt back like this. If you don't go to a strip club you gotta say right there yes answer no why you say yes you know. What's going shopping and touch me when you get home? Portion David came for your questions before we get to those. Here's what three things szeswith tonight. I on tonight's Atlanta. Atta the ladies got all dolled up in red for Cynthia's Bailey Q.. But a re gifted Dolla- two of the women getting read take a look. The energy of this gift make sure daughter. Smile beautiful was de Everley gifted to Kenya by EBA. If you've got your feelings I take care of my feeling God it it had nothing to do you would point fingers at King. I have said for the fifteenth time you can receive it you can leave it. This is way too much tension way too much energy energy where to uh-huh all right go to WWAFL DOT TV. I WANNA know WHO's Saudi Juan Yvo or Kenya where you guys weighing in on this. I can in your first of all. I want to tell you something. I commend you for making a show. Where beautiful black women are? Getting a law was yeah. He's giving me right now. You guys you're on either side era all right. Here's what even Kenya eventually going after each other but only so they could both go after Marlo take a look at this. I still with a lot of you. Ladies are thinking and don't say you say because you're me you don't say a lot of that you want to say because you're fake. Say I am of her life. Baby are fine. Excuse me would you please let me finish. Let's be clear you're not going to do on your son. You're not no boss. I'm a boss passable. Here Eh sorry all right second at the end of last year reporter was very novel baby with her Mr Right. But here's what is we've seen the season things which we never in Dennis have gone fully laughed. Watch us an handed to look. I can't even think of but damn thing to even say to him after need to hear I just got out. I had just heard Mafia say that he actually had thanks for someone my family I wanted a family. It's like it's got to be a bad dream or a joke. He still haven't gotten this daycare thing worked out yet. I just don't have time to do it. It's just us right now. I don't even know what's going on right now. You know I'm trying to develop boundaries. I don't even know what to say here because what should have been the best point of your life. The birth of your baby coincided with the worst part of your life finding out what happened and then the cameras mercer there. How soon do we start filming for an this? Had you had found out as soon after you found out we started filming within about two or three are weeks. Wow Yeah within. A question was as big as foot coast. And that's why I gotta Bro. I don't just ask you while you were pregnant. This man dog too well. We're still working it out. We really are We're reengaged and you know that was the first I met a break up. And then you re engage we are working you get another range was too. We're working on our family it. It takes time I love him uh-huh and he loves me and we're doing best family. Yes that's really what all you can do and you're working on the trust absolutely. Yeah you have to have trust us all right well. Finally David is gearing up to start a soldier's play on Broadway so I wanna see how his acting skills translate to. Some people who aren't soldiers are often at war. Here's is what cyber bravo logs Atlanta edition. David you're going to dramatically deliver lines of dialogue once uttered by a housewife Porsche. You try and guess who said he'd Schlock okay. I one welcome Baldy. Come five I was late Bitch Purple Ray Bitch. Sure any idea who said it. That's absolutely meaning that that is the Marlins all right next up. I'm telling you I will get all this south-central out own parents that would be marlow. That was Yvonne. All right next up was is it. My reading now just wasn't a good read. No not your read her originally bring them shady bitches in here. Because because I'm ready to read baby you're told me that was you. Thank you David Alley. Okay we got to Villanova. Mom wants to know of you and Dennis decided on a date for the wedding not yet but it will be next year. But we don't don't have a set date yet David. Walt if we can ever expect a reboot of in living color no next question no porsche getting some tweets. Just wanting to know if that's the same engagement ring on your finger you had to give back it's the same and that was shady. G wants to tax. David was there ever a sketch on in living color. That Fox flipped out over because it went too far. Yeah but you know back then. There was no social media. Yeah so we asked. The Headley's was making family. And we. When we first started we'd use Jamaican curse words so by the time the Jamaica community called called the network until headlong we are great? Thank you technology that is Porsche Court. Age wants to know which probably liberty you love meeting with at Bravo Con. Oh I wasn't there a really long time because of my yes. I didn't get to meet a lot of people Okay okay next week Atlanta the ladies attend marlow air event but a surprise appearance. Has Everyone wigging out you guys. This is next Level Asi he and I love it watches peak. You have five minutes tasty the best flat curl getting us us. mm-hmm is right here for you baby. I'm not interested in supporting Marles. Wig Line I have my own hair care line to support and promote security whereas my security you welcome marlow. Can you more the Guy Porsche. Jason t wants to know. Are you nervous about Pilar watching the Atlanta and finding out about Denis's indiscretion on so now okay David Betsy McCall twenty. Six One snow if it's true who the UN Adam Corolla are no longer friends. You were very funny on his podcast. I don't do his podcast anymore. But you know it's not like we saw each other we'd be throwing down on you know God chose not to for political reasons. Okay porsches. Do you watch the show with Dennis and is that awkward. Hey Joe Oh joe says you guys are both kill okay so yes I do wash ashore with him sometimes and is difficult for us. It's not easy at all reliving. Living in Okay Jill from Delaware jail. What's Your Question High Ama questions for Porsche? If you had to hire one of the Atlanta ladies to be your nanny who would you choose. ooh ooh I would definitely choose Tanya and I would have to say Cynthia all right. Let's Kinda Scott from New York. Hey Scott what's your question for David Alan Grier gave it one of my favorite movies growing up. Her Kid was the original Monje and I needed to know what was it like. Shoot that movie and do you have any fun. Memories of working with Robin Williams. So that movie was hell. I remember Robin was never in a bad mood. Really we would work twelve fifteen hours a day. Then he was say David you want to clout in the club and do Improv. And I was like Improv. My work I'm going to sleep right. He was just great a really sweet man and I really Miss Awesome. Not One bad day. That's one bad thing to say. So was that he was one of my idols to act with him. So I do remember one real quick story. The first thing we shot together I totally went up. I mean when they said action. I forgot all my line. Yeah it was just one of those men. That's got it together. We were able to move on. Do you think Ben Film would go over today by the not well. The world has moved on but the gay community was they. We're into it at the time. Here's I remember yeah I remember. It was split between generation. Older gay men were like Shh. Don't tell we're we're not really on board with this but younger gay guys seemed to like right. They had men on film nights right at gay bars. I was dating this girl at the the time her good friends who are a gay couple of courtyard near like it's game time everybody the only thing. Thank you for working. Abilities is a rather unique way with words. Switched seats guys. It's time for Porsche. Explains it all okay. These are going to switch switch places and face each other random words are gonNA appear on the screen. Portion is going to try to get David to gas each word by explaining them to the best of her ability. If he got seven in sixty seconds. You both David have a seat please. And I look at that screen. The words go all right. Okay so this is avocado okay. So a lot of people All these people part of their check from a bravo. Irs Irs. All right. So you're going on a date and this guy is entertaining your girl. He's up there on eggs and everything air and put in your mouth. What's that table? Call the table. I don't WanNa be at all. It's IT'S A. It's Aww I I love the is raw meat. It's red and you can eat with crackers. Are you know what what this is. All on the ground ham ham and like Italian people eat it pursued a the long time to get there no. It's like a Zombie but not gone. Be The like a mummy in Zimbabwe. Yes Jerry O'CONNELL told me during the break. He predicts the Tony for you David. He said you are incredible. Edible it is soldiers. I remember you were in the movie. Originally I was thank different part. There's a third role I've played in this. Wow I was in the a play. Production took over for Larry. Riley did the movie within tzoanos guys. Now I'm doing the play. The Vera wants to know if you've seen the shady side of Cynthia that knee keeps referring to Yeah I remember that good fantastic mortal Kombat kick David Aaron v E mail. Do you regret turning down the role of ACE Ventura. I don well let me explain. It wasn't ace Ventura. Charles saw it had been floating around for many years. Okay and they said we have this project and you can rewrite it and I think they talked about me and Rob Schneider. At one point. It was different okay different. I thought I was making the right move at the time online. Lord yes okay it is. It's it's ivory. Goes to Dwayne Wade. Who Clap back at the trolls who criticized his twelve year? Old Child Zion for wearing fake nails and a crop top up in their family for Thanksgiving photo. Shoot saying stupidity. As a part of this world we live in so I get it. But here's the thing I've been chosen to lead my family not y'all so we will continue to be us and support each other with pride love and a smile. I love that setback. The you know not only is Wayne Awesome Dad but you rule Zion. Anyone brave enough to wear a crop top during Thanksgiving Day of constant gorging deserves. Ask right exactly and Nobel person says tonight. Shackled goes to the confusing moment this weekend when former vice president Joe Joe Biden inexplicably nibbled on his wife's finger while she was making a speech in Iowa campaign. Stop on the plus side Jill putting your finger in his mouth met. The Joe couldn't put his foot in it David Williams is here for the real outside of Atlanta in. God we in the soldiers play with Jerry. O'CONNELL beginning December twenty seven th the American Airlines Theatre by Ronnie Stricter Zouk breakfast song arbiter. Missile tells available download. Now you could see your live Ronnie's best Christmas ever get your tickets now. Let's go to the phones caller. What's your name Henry For New York? An NRI what your question and My question support Sir. What's your If someone who's had a falling out with knee would you agree this. She doesn't take accountability for the things. She doesn't others that she would apologized for what she does. You know what I listen in this group. These days have a hard time. I'm doing that I have been you know had hard time with that too and had to come around to you. Know going on somewhat of an apology tour I think if you continue watching the season So you may see a little bit of a different any all right. It's good tease. Let's go to bathroom Chicago. Yeah it is stuff super man. I have to say you are like my hero your radio show on your TV. Show me having thank you. It's Nice you're very welcome. Take Speaker I've been at home for a while Porsche. Thank you for sharing your journey and everything you're going through. You need to blame that boot out some frigging. I know learn on it. Learn your sister. My sister and my sister are best friends and had the same name. Okay okay all right. What's your question but any my questions are David Allen Jess shop career totally maybe baby sideways but anyway I wanted to ask him first of all? What was your last moment of working with? Bonnie Hunt Um Well to be serious Bonnie and I when we really were working on the Bonnie hunt show it was seamless. It was like no effort. It was like she saw it. Felt as if when you're a jazz musician and you're improvising one. Solo leads into the next. You pass that baton and it was is just beautiful music man. She's she's telethon show and an episode where we did this telethon that I remember in particular was an the amazing episode. Let's go to from Texas say true. What's your question? Hi Andy Hi Porsche. Hi David proportion by the way I love your rid Hair portion to ask you real quick I'm trying to figure out because I've been watching this evening and it seems like there's some tension between you wouldn't even like I know she was filling in for you at your other job but it seems like you know on the show behind your back. You know. She's got some like click comments. I'm just trying to figure out what's going on between the two of you. All your friendship like not induced anymore. What's going on? Yeah I think you're read is right on that I oh I think I did. I have definitely seen some backhanded things. I think there's a lot to deal with at the reunion all right let's go to Sharon from DC Sharad. What what's your question? My question is for truth proportionate to found a nanny yet you find the nanny honey you gotta keep watching. It was like a big ask okay. Let's go to work H Larussa. What's your question I mean just for David Does and wonder what the best part of being back on Broadway? I love being in New York City. I'll tell you what is unique about being on Broadway. Whenever I come back to play people say say welcome home? That's nice when you in Hollywood. They say what you're working on your right right and that love. It's just awesome. I love with New York. That's great that's great. It's a special Actually experience being heard especially how you're in rehearsals at Christmas. Time opened on the twenty seven. Anthony it's a great time to be staged an anti you bring up a good thing. It is a perfect way to blow off your friends and family. I Carson was laid on Broadway. I WANNA Porsche. David and Ronnie's thanks for listening to the PODCAST. Everybody hope you enjoyed the show. Remember new episodes go live Monday. Doing through Friday at four P._M.. Eastern time make sure your subscribe to have a great rusty or night.
"Manmade white writer this obscene in the bottle. It is a common creation but it is an artifact of all in the all all of the buckle it is that it is in essence human wrist the bottle it is the created substitute for the human wrist the substitute for man keeping station of his wrist in a neutral position. The bottle it is is in effect the wrist held with thumb to sky that is the all in wonder of the bottle it. The man had created the bottling in transformed his wrist into a plastic ring. My name is Alan White and this is the man manmade so please common inscribing post your suggestions. You trips next time. They think twice <music>.
Espionage Rewind: Alan Turing Pt. 1
"Welcome back to podcast rewind. That's when we play a episode of espionage that you might have missed. He was a mathematician. Computer Scientist Magician cryptanalysts philosopher theoretical biologist and the subject of our rewind today. Of course I'm referring to part one of our episodes on Alan Turing. Originally airing on May tenth. Two Thousand Nineteen touring had a truly remarkable and tragic life and probably doesn't get the credit. He deserves as being one of the great minds of all time. It's one of our early episodes of espionage and still one of my favorites. If you'd like to hear part two after this episode you can search for it. Within the espionage feed in the meantime enjoy Lieutenant Commander Ian Fleming of the Royal Naval Reserve stood on a tarmac outside of Dover watching a German bomber on the runway. He checked his watch anxiously then pulled his coat tightly around his body. The fall air could be bitterly cold next to the sea. Tired of waiting. He turned back to the control tower. Once inside he commanded that the Ensign dial the head intelligence office once he had them on the phone. He demanded to know why they hadn't received their target yet. Hadn't anyone told him? The mission was off. There were no suitable boats in the strait. Fleming slammed the phone down. This was his operation. Dammit he hated to see it fail looking out the window at the bomber. He felt intense disappointment. Tonight's mission was supposed to include a dazzling display of aerial acrobatics subterfuge in hand to hand combat. And in the end he was all supposed to result in the recovery. One of those Damn German rescue boats. The boat itself was of no use. It was the code books within that were valuable. They held the secrets to bringing down the Nazi U Boat Network but even the information that those contained was useless except to one man and that man wasn't even a high ranking member of the Government. He was a mathematician named Allan touring this is espionage new. Par cast original exploring the missions behind the world's most incredible spies and what brought their covert operations into the public eye. I'm your host Carter Roy throughout the show. We'll explore real world spy tactics required to impersonate exploit and infiltrate the most confidential places in the world. You can find all previous episodes of espionage as well as all of podcasts. Other shows on spotify and anywhere else you listen to podcasts. New episodes come out on Fridays. We're also on facebook and instagram at podcast and twitter at podcast networks. This is our first episode on the cryptanalysts. Who TURNED THE TIDE OF WORLD? War Two Alan touring from nineteen thirty nine to nineteen forty. Two touring worked at the top secret government code and Cypher School located at Bletchley Park in Buckinghamshire England. His genius theories regarding the potential applications of a thinking machine led to the creation of mechanical devices. That were able to decrypt intercepted. German communications in the process. He laid the foundation for the rise of the modern computer this week. We'll explore. How Allen began working at Bletchley Park and set about trying to crack German enigma machines will also explore how the flow of enemy intelligence from Bletchley Park allowed the Royal Navy to gain the upper hand in the war next week in part two will follow Allen as he completes his mission only to be put on trial for homosexual acts his heroic work and subsequent mistreatment at the hands of the British government would not be common knowledge until decades after his death as Great Britain entered World War Two on September third nineteen thirty nine it faced a seemingly insurmountable problem intelligence knowing what the enemy was going to do before they did it. In the wars of the Victorian and Edwardian era a slow moving battalion weighed down by cannons and muskets could be spotted by scout on a horse days in advance of an attack but in World War Two the rapid approach of a German looped vodka plane or the submerged body of a u boat. A German submarine could not be preempted by Scouts. And spies alone. The British would need to intercept German communications and both World War One and World War. Two communication was sent in Morse code over both wires and radio signals. Radio messages could be intercepted by simply tuning into the right frequency and wire communications could be intercepted with a wiretap but both sides of the war knew this and so they encrypted their communications using ciphers on. This was not a new practice. Ancient Romans would encrypt their wartime communications. With what is now known as a CAESAR CIPHER? This simply involved offsetting the letter in each message by a certain number of letters in the alphabet for example the word cat cat with an offset of five becomes H F y but by nineteen thirty nine decrypted German. Communications had become infinitely complex rumors abounded of an incredible machine cryptology the study of codes and how to break them had really only entered into the spy tradecraft of global intelligence services in World War One which took place from nineteen fourteen to nineteen eighteen mechanization from the industrial revolution. Meant that encryption. Machines were only just beginning to be used and so the simpler forms of encryption the substitution methods. Such as the Caesar Cipher were still common. Indeed the British Secret Service of World War One had really only been able to crack German encryption after recovering a complete set of German code books if the British were going to survive the Second World War they would need to put considerable resources into cryptology and so the day after war was declared on September Fourth Nineteen thirty nine the government code and Cypher School or G C and C S invited. Its best trainees to convene at Bletchley Park a mansion fifty miles north of London. They didn't know it but they were developing the future of global conflict information warfare. Alan Turing arrived at Bletchley Park that same day. According to biographer Andrew Hodges he was put up at the crown in where he received considerable judgment from a landlady who thought he ought to be doing his part for the war by fighting overseas. It was easy for an older woman of course immune to the draft to suggest that a young man go throw himself to the MEAT GRINDER OF WORLD WAR. Two but little did she know Alan would be far more useful to the war effort at this country estate than on the battlefield at twenty seven. He already had degrees in mathematics from both King's College Cambridge and Princeton. His papers on what he called the universal computing machine placed him at the forefront of his field. As he entered the Mansion Allen was greeted by a mix of familiar in new faces he saw dilly Knox who had been the one to recruit them into the G C C s Knox was a well known figure within the Classics Department at King's College in world. War One men like Knox who are trained in the classics were well suited to decryption. Their understanding of ancient literature meant concepts such as the Caesar Cipher came easily but Allen's brand of theoretical mathematics was about to prove much more useful. However the two men did share certain commonalities. Knox was bisexual during his time. At University he had been lovers with famed economist. John Maynard Keynes among others. This may have been reassuring to Allen. He himself had what he identified as homosexual tendency but homosexuality was still a crime in England in the nineteen thirties. This weighed heavily on Allen. Who would have known that the government would consider his homosexuality a liability if they were aware of it? The general idea was that a gay person could be blackmailed by parties threatening to reveal their sexual exploits to the public. It was a secret of enough thing to work as a cryptanalysts was something else entirely to work as a gay cryptanalysts when unfamiliar face when Allen arrived at Bletchley Park was Gordon Welshman six years older than Allen and a Cambridge alumni though he had risen through the ranks in the mathematics department at Sidney Sussex College rather than King's College the recruitment of Alan Gordon and other mathematical geniuses was indicative of the problem at hand the Admiralty the group in charge of the Royal Navy in the branch of the military from which the GC CS had initiated brief the mathematicians on the Germans. Secret weapon `NIGMA machine a series of rotors reflectors and plug boards. The enigma machine was created in the early nineteen twenties by German inventor. Arthur Sherby's over the years it was improved upon and eventually adopted into wide use by the Nazi army. It was essentially a complicated keyboard that allow the user to type messages that were then made unreadable to all except those who had the key without the key there were one hundred fifty. Quin tillerson possible settings that would have to be tested in order to decrypt the message. The fact that the British government even had one of these machines at its disposal and understood how it worked was owed to the efforts of Polish patriots. Who had since been forced to flee to France in particular Polish cryptanalysts Marian? Riots ski led a team that in nineteen thirty two correctly. Deduced the internal makeup of the enigma machine. And even that team owed a debt to German turncoat Hans Tequila Schmidt who passed on German documents to the French and the Polish. With that in mind. The bletchley Park Team were but the new torch bearers of a years long quest to subvert German military operations their mission crack enigma. Come up with a mathematical solution to decrypt any German communications generated by the machine thus allowing the war office to anticipate every loop Fafa u boat or land attack. The U boats in particular were already sinking up to two hundred thousand tons of British freight a day. This included food oil and other essentials. If this wasn't stopped then Britain would starve cracking a `Nigma men being able to read messages. That told the war office where these boats would be and win. It was not a problem that could be solved on pen and paper by a classics Major. But it was potentially a problem that could be solved by one of Alan Turing hypothesized universal computing machines. Alan new just as a machine could be used instantly encrypt a letter. Six Times a machine could be built. That was capable of testing millions upon millions of permutations in a short amount of time. But if you couldn't figure out how to build such a machine and fast then within the next few years everyone in the British isles would be speaking German. So as Gordon Welshman and others said about analyzing the intercepted message traffic where messages were coming from. How often and so forth. Alan drew up mathematical models to express the idea of this theoretical machine. It was top secret spy work though. Visually looked no more exciting than a student taking a math test. Alan analyzed Polish data and found plans for a device nicknamed the Bomba supposedly named after an ice cream. Filled cake dessert. Though why remains unclear the device used mechanical processes? That worked toward decrypt enigma. But not nearly. The scale needed to quickly decipher any and all German communications Imagined deciphering one word a day when hundreds of messages were coming in each hour however seeing that others had also considered a mechanical solution to the `Nigma problem gave Allen confidence that he was on the right track over the course of September nineteen forty. The numbers at Bletchley Park quickly grew the cryptanalysts would need a large staff to help them make their vast and complicated calculations meanwhile Alan came closer and closer to a design for a machine that could work through many permutations of a `Nigma. His scribblings look like madness to an untrained eye. Lines led to dodd slid them more lines all fanning out in an array that suggested some sort of science fiction device from the future and incredibly. It only took Allen a few weeks to complete design. He called his machine the bomb named after the Polish Bomba in order to discuss the machine concisely and in a way that most of us can understand. We'll have to grossly simplify its inner workings from the outside. It would look like a peculiar massive cabinet on its side where three panels each featuring twelve by three grids of drums round dials representing letters of the alphabet that were attached to one hundred eight internal shafts. These shafts each contained hundreds of wires rings and other materials that interacted with the other shafts Allen theorized that if a portion of an intercepted message could guessed at than that guests could be entered electronically into the machine and using a series of if then type deductions. The machine could arrive at whether the guests was correct or not and thus provide the `nigma settings being used however guessing a word. An intercepted message to feed in. The machine was no easy task. Obviously if it was as easy as guessing the whole Bletchley enterprise wouldn't be needed but again allen's genius proved itself. Has It dawned on him? That many of the intercepted messages were weather reports or in German veteran for hair saga he theorized that he could electronically input. This guess word which he referred to as a crib into the machine. If the guess was correct then the machine could break that days codes engineers. Bletchley got to work on the machines. Construction and the first one was installed in March nineteen forty. It worked Allen's guess word was a success unfortunately progress was slow. It was still just one machine against a plethora of data and again. German encryption changed every day messages. Could not be decrypted in time. To make use of them immediately even still there was something to be gleaned from a delay decryption knowing of a ship's position from three weeks ago was still better than knowing nothing at all but that was small consolation for some as in April nineteen forty across the North Sea. The Nazis invaded Denmark then Norway conquering both in short order. Soon after perhaps most devastatingly in May nineteen forty. Germany invaded France from the east. While they're ally Italy invaded from the South on June tenth of that same year. By late June most of the country was in Nazi hands. The darkness grew while the candle of hope that was Bletchley. Park continued to plug away. Gordon welshmen would come to form a solid working relationship with Allen. Designed an addition to the bomb called the diagonal board again grossly simplifying. This was a series of cables that help the machine to eliminate certain possibilities based on the nature of the Enigma's plug board. Everyone at Bletchley Park was motivated and working as hard as they could to improve their decryption capabilities but soon they would experience the greatest motivation of all in July nineteen forty. The Battle of Britain began. I'm next. Britain falls under siege. I par cast listeners. We realized that there are a lot of par- cash shows to choose from each day and sometimes not enough time to sort through them all in our new feed podcast daily. We filter through all of your favorite podcasts series to highlight the most timely and relevant episode premiering each day every Monday through Friday. Discover a new and captivating episode curated specifically for you. That's one new episode from our slate of content handpicked with you in mind. Time is precious. And we've got you covered follow. Par cast daily free on spotify. Or wherever you get your podcast you can check out more par cash shows and a full library of episodes in spotify by searching for podcast in the spotify. Search bar or by going to spotify dot com slash podcast now back to the story in August. Nineteen Forty Alan Turing and Gordon. Welshman of the British Government Code and Cypher School perfected the design for Allen's bomb machine a massive computing device. That could aid in the decryption of German communications. Unfortunately just as the machine was manufactured in large quantities and installed at the schools based in Bletchley Park the German invasion of Britain began. It was almost entirely an invasion from the air. Has the German air force known as the looped? Fafa engaged with the Royal Air Force above the English Channel. Meanwhile Alan Turing had reached somewhat of an impasse with his bomb machine. The machine operated on being fed cribs or guests words that allow the machine to decrypt the rest of a message. The challenge of guessing these words combined with the constant challenge of the various possible combinations within the enigma machine. Meant that through nineteen forty. Alan was only able to decrypt about five days worth German Communications on. This was a huge achievement. But it wasn't enough. Bletchley Park received thousands of German communications a day. What Alan really needed was documentation that spoke to the rotor. Settings of the `nigma machine but this was top secret information that only German officers had access to and if they felt they were going to be captured or killed. Their orders were to destroy their machines. And they're code. Books Allen was undertaking top secret work but he was not himself a secret agent. Others would have to retrieve the necessary documents from the field. Enter one of the most well-known espionage figures of all time Lieutenant Commander Ian Fleming of the Naval Intelligence Division. This was essentially the spy arm of the Admiralty. It was a very fluid department at the time as the navy was still largely playing. Catch up in this fast paced technologically advanced war men like Fleming knew that more aggressive clandestine tactics were called for naval officers. At bletchley. Park Ran Allen's needs up the flag pole and Fleming took action. He devised a plan. Code named operation. Ruthless delivered to the Admiralty in September nineteen forty. The plan was fairly straightforward consisting of four steps step one obtained from the Air Ministry and Air Worthy German bomber step to pick a tough crew of five including pilot with operator and word perfect. German speaker dress them in German air force uniform. Add BLOOD AND BANDAGES TO SUIT. Step three crash plane in the channel after making SOS to Rescue Service in German Navy. Step for once aboard Rescue Boat Shoot. German crew dump overboard bring rescue boat back to English port. It was a bold plan to say the least. The admiralty wasn't even sure of a bomber could be crashed without killing anyone inside and they were pretty sure it would immediately sink to the bottom of the channel but Alan hoped they would go through with it. This might be his only opportunity to get his hands on German enigma documents. Fleming flew to Dover to prepare for the operation. Only it wasn't long before intelligence called him to tell him they could find no suitable. German rescue boats on radar. The Battle of Britain was still raging in the skies above the channel after all. It was a disappointing outcome. Frank Birch a naval officer at Bletchley Park wrote that went. Allan heard the news. He came to me like an undertaker cheated of a nice corpse. And so Alan would have to spend the rest of nineteen forty and the first part of nineteen forty one confined to a small office at Bletchley. Refining machine in coming up with new ways to crack a `Nigma Bletchley was no longer a single stuffy. Mansion inhabited by six male academics. It had become an institution construction on the huts had finished at least until they needed more. These were ugly barrick looking edifices. That inside gave the workers. The impression of attending summer Camp Allen was located in hut eight where the senior CA panelists all worked. His desk was a small affair with a lamp and mounds of papers. There was little in the way of decoration. In addition to hut eight eventually there were nearly two dozen additional hots all housing different aspects of intelligence operations for indeed by nineteen forty one bletchley had become about far more than cracking enigma. This was a world war after all so different team set out to crack the communications of Italy. In Japan. Not to mention the Germans were using other forms of encryption. The required their own teams at Bletchley to address Prime Minister Winston Churchill who had only just replaced Neville Chamberlain in May nineteen forty saw the great value military intelligence. He was supportive of Bletchley outgrowing. Its roots as a branch of the Admiralty and allowed it to become more of a centralized intelligence hub. A civilian workforce of several thousand mostly. Women was brought in to handle a plethora of duties for many it was a very mechanical process that simply required them to type or operate a machine or analyze disparate pieces of data each day. Most had no idea what they were working on little. Did anyone know they were performing the work? That in modern intelligence agencies is the bedrock of spycraft intelligence analysis the United States Central Intelligence Agency teaches its officers to quote challenges refine and challenge again and according to CIA Veterans Preston Golson and Matthew F Ferraro to analyze competing. Hypotheses draw reasonable inferences and reach conclusions essentially analysts parse the near limbless information available to them from enemy countries and deduce what is true and then further deduce what is of importance to their government on. This is exactly the service. Bletchley Park was performing workers would translate sort and assign priority to different communications and it would then continue up the chain until it reached the correct parties. There was even a special box filled with messages. That waiver Churchill's is only but no matter your role at Bletchley. You're keep your service top secret to reveal your position at the park was to open yourself up to possible blackmail by German or even Soviet forces. Allan always feared that being a gay man would put his work in jeopardy perhaps out of a desire to create a cover for himself or perhaps out of a genuine desire to lead a quote unquote normal life. Allen began dating Bletchley Park Female Linguist Joan Clark. In the spring of Nineteen Forty One. Joan was by no means an unattractive match. She received a title of degree in mathematics from Cambridge. In one thousand nine hundred eighty nine. This was the closest thing. Cambridge offered at the time to a full undergraduate degree for women. The skill required to accomplish. This was impressive enough. The determination required to achieve such an honor in a male dominated. Society was something more altogether. She'd actually studied under Gordon. Welshman Allen's fellow cryptanalysts at Bletchley. Who helped him perfect the bomb and so her transition to Bletchley was a natural extension of that work when she arrived in June nineteen forty. She quickly proved herself more adapted understanding the science at the bomb than any other recruit as a result Allen. Stoler away from Welsh. Men's hut bringing her too hot eight to work on his team. Despite Jones significant contributions to the war effort she was paid a fraction of what her male co-workers were Alan and the others actually worked to get her the title of linguist so that she could get paid more even though she didn't speak any other languages. According to the BBC she would humorously have to fill out paperwork by writing grade linguist language. None as the work began to hit speed bombs through the first half of nineteen forty one. Alan and Joan had time to turn their thoughts to other matters. They would frequently go on dates together to a nearby cinema. Though Jones said there was very little physical contact between them. This was not so unusual for Nineteen. Forty one though. Of course Alan had his own secret reason for keeping his hands to himself nevertheless they were engaged that same spring much. The excitement of their fellow hut mates the next day. Allen asked Joan out for a walk around the grounds after lunch. He was likely filled with anxiety at the prospect of what he was about to share with her. Some saw him as being a very serious unemotional. Man Concerned Only with mathematics but that wasn't true. He contained a depth the feeling that extended to many of those who worked with most especially Joan and he wanted to be honest with her. This was not him trying to break often gauge man. No he thought they could go ahead with it if she was willing. They hardly be the first married couple. In England to share and exclusively emotional bond in absence of a physical one they were walking through an isolated section of the park when Allen Turned Joan telling her that he had something important to say he watched her face closely so that he could catch the slightest reaction to what he was about to share. He told her that he wasn't sure their marriage would work because well he had a homosexual tendency. She was worried by this revelation. Of course she knew. This wasn't a sort of thing you grew out of or moved on from. But it wasn't a deal breaker for her. As Alan had expected she still loved him. She could still imagine a future with him. And indeed according to biographer Andrew. Hodges they shared a full life together through those engagement months. Joan taught him how to knit. They used meager wartime materials to fashion themselves. A chess set and would play constantly. And of course there was the work the decryption of enigma. That allowed them to stand next to one another every day and work to get the letters to dance in just the right way on the off chance that if they did so then they might ensure the continued liberty of the free world as it turned out march nineteen forty one would be a pivotal month in that regard as news came down. The Navy had finely done it. They'd recovered German enigma documents. Next up top secret. Commando Operation Claymore leads to a breakthrough in the cracking of a `Nigma now back to the story beginning in September. Nineteen thirty nine mathematician. Alan Turing served as a crypt analyst at the Government Code and Cypher School at Bletchley Park in Buckinghamshire England. His invention of the bomb machine helped the British decrypt German enigma messages. However the machine required wasn't perfect Allen needed more information to be able to accurately decrypt German communications within a day of receiving them. This was essential as certain military. Intelligence was only useful within a short window if the Germans were planning to bomb London within twenty four hours that information wasn't useful seven days later but then in March nineteen forty one a raid conducted by the British commandos yielded unexpected results. The commandos were an especially unique unit. Within the British armed forces recently commissioned by Winston Churchill in June nineteen forty to conduct harassment missions throughout Nazi occupied territory in the early morning hours March fourth nineteen forty one a coalition of Commandos Royal Engineers in Norwegian freedom fighters descended upon the low Foton archipelago in northern Norway. Their mission code-named Claymore was to attack multiple fish oil production centres along the coastline. But they're ultimate prize would prove to be far more valuable than some destroyed. Factories British tribal class destroyer. Hms Somali cut of the German trawler. Krebs the Somali immediately opened fire crabs was hit with three shells destroying its boiler room wheelhouse and exploding stored ammunition on board the Somali cautiously approached pulling up alongside crabs. The commando swept the deck finding multiple dead sailors. Their bodies had been riddled with exploding shells and bits of debris but most significantly as the British forces arrived in the wheelhouse they found the captain dead slumped against the wheel. Clearly the Germans hadn't had time to destroy everything has the British soldiers swept the room. They found three strange gear type devices decorated with various notches. And the letters of the alphabet. Next to the strange gears was a stack of books. They were labeled a `Nigma. The sailors collected everything they could but soon had to flee crabs as flames consume the decks and caused the ship to sink. The Somali turned back toward the archipelago. Where massive black plumes of smoke now rose from where the fish oil processing centers had stood a few minutes before operation? Claymore was a success once. The convoy returned to England. The war office realized what the Somali had recovered and immediately delivered the materials to Alan at Hut Eight. Allen's work was clearly valued. He was receiving recovered intelligence before even high ranking members of the military had access to them. This discovery was so classified that even the official dispatch to the admiralty summarizing. The battle excluded the discovery of the enigma materials. There was always the fear that there could be German or Soviet spies embedded in the government according to the facts and details project the concept of double agents or moles wouldn't hit its stride until the Cold War years decades later Mole is an agent of a government that is secretly working for an enemy government. Oftentimes these agents are native to the country in which they are embedded and are thus traders to their own countrymen it was potentially inconceivable to stiff upper lip. Brits who would never betray their country. That fellow elite might be working for the Nazis or Britain's political rivals. The Soviet Union and so- figures in parliament in the military question Churchill's extreme insistence on secrecy. According to journalist Paul Mason many of the elites in Britain were not necessarily even anti-fascist and wanted to make peace with Hitler which is perhaps why Churchill was more willing to trust middle-class mathematician. Alan Turing over the upper class officers in his military. He was right to be wary years later. It would come to light that. British intelligence had been subverted at the highest levels by British elite born Soviet moles and it was imperative that the Germans in particular not know the real value of operation claymores discoveries because the materials were just what Allen needed. The recovered routers allowed Allen to see exactly what settings had been used in February for German naval enigma. And even better. The code books gave him the exact key for all messages from the last month by March Twelfth Nineteen forty one. They didn't even need the bomb for that months worth of messages. Bletchley park workers could simply set up their own enigma machines using the directions in the code box and decode all the Intel. They had intercepted in the previous weeks. This was extremely useful but it still wasn't the instantaneous. Decryption that Allen is working toward being able to read enemy. Communications from the previous month was one thing being able to read enemy communications that day. You intercepted them was another but that was exactly why Alan was working at Bletchley. His skill set but that he could use what had been recovered to come up with a method that would allow this kind of near instantaneous decryption by analyzing the settings used for February and the content of the messages the bomb could be adjusted for accuracy and better cribs could be fed into it. According to biographer Andrew Hodges by April nineteen forty one. Alan had reached a supreme understanding of German Naval Enigma. This allowed him to program the bombs to break the encryption of any German Communication Bletchley received and by May bletchley realized that there were two German weather ships in the North Atlantic that they could rely upon for a consistent source of cribs whether reports always contain the same predictable words for the first time. British counterintelligence could produce information in time to actually affect the battlefield. Bletchley Park's data put them at the forefront of the war. They even had a hand in sinking. Germany's most famous ship. The bismarck the BISMARCK was the largest ship in the German navy. It was Hitler's pride and joy. And because of that. Churchill wanted destroyed as a folk song from nineteen sixty would later put it. Churchill told the people put every ship. Assail Kaz somewhere on that ocean. I know she's gotta be. We gotta sink the Bismarck to the bottom of the sea but the first phase of that plan had gone disastrously on May twenty fourth nineteen forty one the day before Jane received the message at Bletchley. The bismarck fired at the hood a British warship. This shell struck ammunition in its belly and devastated the ship essentially blowing it up in one shot for any sailor watching. It was the largest explosion they had ever seen. Nearly all of the hoods one thousand four hundred eighteen crewmen were killed. The Hood was the pride of the Royal Navy. Its destruction was met with uproar. Among the public back in Britain Churchill then issued his famous order to the Admiralty. I don't care how you do it. You must sink the Bismarck. After that practically the entire Royal Navy and royal airforce searched the Atlantic following the sinking of the hood. The bismarck needed to sail to port for repairs. But the Germans now controlled a majority of the Northern Coast of Europe. So port could be a lot of different places and that's when Bletchley came into play on May twenty fifth one thousand nine hundred forty one a young analyst in hut six Jane Hughes intercepted a message from an officer aboard the German battleship Bismarck. Too Aloof Vodka. General in doing so the officer may have just sealed his fate as well as the fate of his whole crew. Because in the message the officer let slip that the Bismarck was sailing to brest in occupied France for repairs. It was a phenomenal fine. For Bletchley as this was the information that led the Royal Navy to the northwestern shore France where on May twenty seventh. A fleet of battleships in a swarm by plane sunk the German ship for good this time over two thousand. German sailors were killed. Churchill announced the sinking of the Bismarck to the House of Commons provoking thunderous applause. But Allen wasn't satisfied with the sinking of a single ship using cracked a `Nigma intelligence the Royal Navy was able to sink seven more German ships in June. Nineteen forty one valuable supplies such as oil were failing to make it to Germany. It was their turn to starve. Bletchley Intel code-named ultra also allowed British supply ships to sail around no no -cations of German U boats. No longer would tons of freight be sent to the bottom of the English Channel. Historian Ralph Erskine writes that Bletchley Intelligence Save More than twenty British supply ships in many lives Winston Churchill later wrote in his memoirs that quote. The only thing that ever really frighten me during the war was the u boat peril and quote coming from the man who had coordinated literally the entire war effort who bear the greatest responsibility in defeating the Nazis. This was saying something and yet despite this massive victory despite all Allen and his team had accomplished their celebration was a short lived one. Their work already weighed heavily on them when they were too slow. People died when they worked. Well people died their actions lead to death no matter what but only now did they realize that not every piece of intelligence could be acted upon if the allied forces performed too. Well if every move was anticipated if ever you boat was sunk and every loop Volva plane shot out of the sky. Then the Germans would know the British had cracked enigma. And all of their work would have been for nothing. Once again the Bletchley Park team was encountering what would in later decades become the foundation of spycraft in this case the most fundamental spy lesson of all the importance of secrecy master spy in KGB agent. Kim Philby told Soviet forces in Nineteen eighty-one that he would avoid publicity of any kind similarly the G C and C s now needed to avoid drawing attention to themselves. The best spies only reveal as little intelligence as they need to end the exact moment. They need to reveal it due to the extremely classified nature of their work. It's hard to know exactly how often or with what level of severity certain intelligence was ignored. It is well documented that British military forces would use certain strategies to mask the use of Bletchley Park Intel if Bletchley located the position of a particular battleship. The royal airforce would send reconnaissance planes to that location. Making it look like it was the plane's not Bletchley that it spotted the craft essentially. It was a matter of making it. Look like the information had been gleaned from different source but supposedly if no proper cover story could be devised and the. Intel wasn't of paramount importance than the war office would have to allow Tom to befall their own troops according to Andrew. Hodges the Germans actually did suspect something after the sinking of the supply ships in June. But they weren't willing to consider that enigma had been broken. They thought it more likely that British spies had been particularly successful that month. And that was technically true though. Their definition of spy likely didn't include a gay math genius from Cambridge. Sitting at his desk making calculations attitude speaks to the precise reason British cryptology in counterintelligence was successful and why Nazi intelligence floundered the men and women working at Bletchley Park. Weren't the strapping blonde haired. Blue Eyed Superman that the Nazis valued. They were outcasts queer men like Alan Dilly Knox or women like Joan. Clark who rebelled against societal norms. Their enthusiasm for their work and diversity of ideas meant they could attack the `nigma problem from many angles. Hitler's Doggy Dogg. Survival of the fittest. Philosophy men the German cryptanalysts were less likely to collaborate. In the way that for example Allan in Gordon Welshmen had in Nazi Germany. Such an ECLECTIC group of thinkers was more likely to find themselves in a concentration camp than at the front lines of government intelligence work and so it was no easy task to ask such a thoughtful passionate group of people to accept that some of their intelligence findings would have to go unheeded. Perhaps it was this moral weight on his shoulders or at least the addition of it that finally pushed Allen to call off his engagement with Joan in August nineteen forty. They were on a brief vacation together when he told her that he couldn't go through with it. He knew that he would never be attracted to her in the way that he was attracted to men but he also had genuine feelings for her. It was difficult for both of them. Shaun Wylie a fellow hut AAC cryptanalysts in colleague of Allen's while he was at Princeton suggested in a much later interview with the BBC that he was very upset when the couple broke up. Allen attempted to explain the break-up to Sean but he wasn't forthcoming with the true reason for his split. With Joan Life may have seemed quite bleak for Allan. Donnelly was at war with himself but the war that was raging across Europe was only going to get worse in June. Nineteen forty one. The Germans had invaded the Soviet Union breaking the nonaggression pact. That had been in place since one thousand nine hundred thirty nine by August Bletchley was decoding German messages. That suggested something more than just war was playing out in the Soviet Union. The Germans weren't just conquering. They were executing thousands of innocent people on August. Twenty four thousand nine hundred forty one. Churchill's spoke in the House of Commons and made an impassioned speech against the Germans risking bletchley secrecy with some of his comments he specifically revealed to the world that the allies were now aware of. Hitler's plans for those he deemed inferior. Churchill said the following as Hitler's armies advance whole districts are being exterminated scores of thousands literally. Scores of thousands of executions in cold. Blood are being perpetrated by the German police troops upon the Russian patriots who defend their native soil since the Mongol Invasions of Europe in the sixteenth century. There has never been methodical. Mercilus butchery on such a scale or approaching such a scale in. This is but the beginning we are in the presence of a crime without a name Winston. Churchill himself actually visited Bletchley Park in September nineteen forty one and though he had nothing but kind remarks and support for the group. It's unclear whether he remembered Alan Turing after the visit. He certainly wouldn't be there to support him after the war when Alan would face his most difficult battle of all but that battle was a lifetime away as the nations of the world now needed to band together to fight a war unlike any humanity had ever seen to lose meant the death of culture the death of diversity. The death of Freedom Allen's bombs and Bletchley is larger intelligence operation would be a key tool in the effort to stop Hitler for two years they had been working tirelessly and now it was time to roll their sleeves up and work even harder as Allen arrived at eight on February first. Nineteen forty two. He expected to continue his research like any other day but as the analysts went about their work. It soon became clear that something was wrong. The machines weren't delivering normal. The messages weren't coming out right. Nothing made sense. It would take time before everyone became aware but Alan likely recognized what was happening right away. The Germans had added a fourth Roeder to enigma. There would be no more Intel. All of Alan's methods of decryption were now worthless. Thank you for listening to espionage. We'll be back Friday with a new episode. Join US says Allen works to crack the new and improved German. Enigma is sent on a mission to America and after the war faces persecution at the hands of the very people he worked to save for more information on Alan Turing amongst the many sources we used. We found the imitation game by Andrew. Hodges extremely helpful to our research you can find all previous episodes of espionage as well as all podcast other shows on spotify and anywhere else. You listen to podcasts. Several you have asked how to help us if you enjoy the show. The best way to help is to leave a five star review and don't forget to follow us on facebook and Instagram at podcast and twitter at Parkas network. We'll be back next week with another deep dive into the world of clandestine. Operation espionage was created by Max Cutler is a production of cutler media. And as part of the podcast network it is produced by Maxon Ron Cutler sound design by Michael Lang Sner with production assistance by Ron Shapiro and Paul Libeskind additional production assistance by Carly Madden. Maggie Admire espionage is written by Greg Castro on Carter Roy. I hope you enjoyed this. Podcast rewind episode of espionage. You can hear more podcast rewind on the last Sunday of every month right here in the espionage. Feed free on spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.
Moment of the Day (1/29/20)
"The early on we had some discussion about the walk that Alan I had on our way to the Convention Center this morning and it was interesting to say the least. I'm so shocked that you would walk in a strange place to in the morning. Only because Jerry was doing it would not have walked alone. You think Jerry would have protected. You had there been some fisticuffs well. Here's what I thought it would have to take two men to to attack Jerry and I now instead of one man 'cause we probably could take on on will jerry could probably grapple them while I was screaming for help so he wouldn't yeah he would get away with it. Guys two guys coming towards us. I'd have been like. What are we doing here Jerry? What's the move? I jumped up in the other direction. There's moment of the day and by the way for people that might have tuned in and missed the update of the dead man and that story is alive so yes that was landed news said.
Trumpty Dumpty Wanted a Crown
"I'm Alan Alda and this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. I discovered early on especially with the velocity at which events come. By. In the trump administration that every day that I wrote a poem the next day, it would be ancient history. And I realized well, why don't you just embrace that? You're telling history, and in its way it makes a poem even more. Interesting you sort of see my naievety at work. That's John Lithgow in a conversation that was live streamed by the Ninety Second Street Y. He's talking about his new book satirical version drawings called trump T- dumpty wanted a crown. John's an old friend and a superb actor. But it turns out he has all these other talents as well. He we were virtually at the Y.. A, low and welcome to our conversation. I'll be talking tonight. First of all I'm Alan alda Annabi talking tonight with the Great John Liscio. Who you've seen starring in many movies and television series. But. Remarkably for me. One of the greatest performances I've ever seen was when he played Winston Churchill on the crown. John Welcome to the conversation. Thank you Allan. Wonderful to hear you say such nice things about me. Oh, you knocked me out with that and the rest of the world as well. And now you've come out with this remarkable book. Which I'm got right here. I've got mine too great. Trump D dumpty wanted to crown, which is A. To your best selling book, which was called Dumpty dumpty the age of trump in verse. And this? Dumpty wanted to crown versus for a despotic age it sure. Feels like it. It it. It's a satire and it's interesting to me. This is the first verse that I've read with footnotes verse with footnotes. And drawings did you want to be an artist before you wanted to be an actor? These drawings are extraordinarily viewers I did right up until about the age of eighteen or nineteen. Was Determined to be an artist I grew up in a theater family a my father produced Regional Theater Shakespeare festivals so I grew up in that world, but almost because of that, it's not what I wanted I from as long as I can remember I if people ask me, what are you going to be when you grow up I would say artist. But then off I went to college where if you if you wanted to make friends fast, you joined the theater gang. And I was already served polished actor just because of osmosis. That's how it happened as I always say if you hear. Laughter and applause at a young age you're doomed. That's what you will do I know that you know all about this you're second generation yourself. That's right. They carried me down on stage when I was six months old in a burlesque sketch. You had burlesque and I had shakespeare. He has his share of burlesque to while I was six months old but I in burlesque I wasn't the only one with no clothes on. Worked out okay. You've written such an extraordinary book and. As we speak it's an extraordinary time and it really opens us up to a very interesting conversation. ABOUT SATIRE ITSELF What is satire? When a satire not appropriate? When is it appropriate? The book holds Donald Trump on up to a satirical point of view. Is. This a good time to do it now that he's been declared sick with the coronavirus virus. Nobody. Wants to kick a man when he's down. Nobody wants to be seen doing it anyway to question is where's the line? Well, these are the questions that way on all of us especially. People who are in the funny business. Things Change. So quickly I mean you ask that important question when is it appropriate and when is is it inappropriate on Friday? I would have said it was inappropriate but by Sunday morning, it was appropriate and you know all of us who were involved in this book. Of course, we I've spent since last December on this book it was my. Talk all consuming preoccupation during the long. Period of sheltering in place. four or five months of hard work writing the poems and then another month of. Illustrating them and then I launched this project and involve you in it. Allen of making twenty one little videos of the poems in lieu of a book tour in order to launch and promote the book you put all that work in. This is ten eleven months of work, and suddenly along comes Friday and you realize, Oh, we've just got to pull the plug on the whole thing we dare not laugh. This might be a good time to play the video that you made that introduces the whole book. It's the verse that is the first in the book I. Think I think it'd be a great great time to play Greg. It's it's a lovely well-produced video jumping off point. Promptly dumpty wanted a crown. Trump D dumpty water crown to make certain who never would have to step down. He wanted a role, major urban and velvet the constitution. He wanted to shelve it. With impeachment awash has ambition had grown he wanted an orb a sceptre, a thrown six royal palaces, six royal carriages, a church dispensation for six oil marriages courtiers installed on his own Supreme Court and royal beheading as if only for sport. He craved the occasional royal procession and. GASP. The eventual royal succession. TRUMP DEED EMPTY GETS HIS WAY Unless the public has something to say. If we let him have all of his favorite things we'll have to endure. The divine right of kings. I just noticed the gesture as as you. Have to watch it a few times before you catch that I never saw that before the Kings dumpy flipping the bird that's the first about twenty. One of these there created by this wonderful group, my friend Tim Van Patten gathered the great director. He gathered together these three guys who make up triptych studios Adam bankhead at WESTBROOK and Brian Bill and they just spun magic out of my not only my poems but my illustrations. and. The other th-. extrordinary thing about it is, I've asked about eighteen my friends Alan alda included to participate just by filming themselves at home the way we're filming ourselves right now and divvied up the poems to them. So you know you just saw me but wait until you see the big billy goat gruff. We have what Goldberg Glenn Close Meryl Streep Annette Benning Samuel L. Jackson Eighty foul goes the shame and even corralled a few politicos. Steve. Schmidt James Carville. The epidemiologist Laurie Garrett. The thing about my poems is they are funny. All right. But with they are quite intentionally savage and mean because they are almost all of them are dealing with very serious subject. I had idea when I launched into the project just how serious the subjects would get but just think of it from the time I said Yes to the second book of poems, we had the impeachment hearings trump's equival the corona virus, the arrival of black lives matter activism and a colossal economic collapse, and all the time I was writing funding poems about it. I'm thinking about the nature of secretary you're saying that it has to be outrageous. Even involving a bit of insulting concept's. And And the idea that it appeals to the people who are preaching to the choir the sense. And, yet, it can be effective and get under the skin of the leaders of the guy who imitated the success. Of. The daily show in Egypt name was Yousef. Cut So under the skin of the leaders there that he had to run to America with his family to save their lives now and there was A. There was a satirical show on Russian television and when Putin came to power was elected again her in in your two thousand he went after the television show and tried to kill the star of the show which was a puppet called Kuechley. Caught. Can't make up comedy like that. I know and they they they. Killed Kuechley they took over the station and from then on, it was all Russian propaganda by rob again. So it does get under their skin. And yet, they have effective means to deflect IT A. Relic do. An authoritarian state, which is why you satirists determined not to allow their governance governance to become authoritarian. It's a dangerous game day play in some societies not quite so dangerous here. Thank. God you know the great document recent document on this subject is a wonderful Columbine Nicholas Kristof about one week ago in the New York Times. Uncharacteristic of of Nick, Kristof, he was writing about comedy and he was Writing About Satire and mockery, and how it is, in fact, one of the greatest weapons against authoritarianism and yet I'm reminded of something you said in piece you wrote. Where you talked about Was it Chime cleese who started? No Peter Cook Peter, Cook Peter Cook Yeah tell that yes. Peter Cook. He was kind of the darkest and strangest and probably the funniest member of beyond the fringe back in the sixties and. I was obsessed with them back then. He when he started this Satirical Review Club in London called the establishment in the late sixties after beyond the fringe had disbanded and he said he wanted to model it on those wonderful Berlin cabarets. The did so much to stop the rise of Hitler. Now that that's heure editor exile really in said Joe Sills. It is it acknowledges the limitations of Satire Yeah. Yes. Indeed satires absolutely essential and we embrace it meet we re say thank. God. They are there. We need them so much. They hold the shameful that they put the shameful to shame and we need that but the point appear cokes remark is it does have its limitations. It doesn't necessarily change people's mind because it's pitched to. It preaches to the converted. It seems to the choir however in the case of the guy who was very successful on television in Egypt. The reason it got under the skin of the leader. was that there were people marching in the streets. Because they had been aroused by the television show by the by the. The hold no bars. comedy yeah. It's it's all cyclical. Isn't it? I? Mean Arno Holz I said hold no bars. It's. Actually both ways Alan yes, right. But. But I mean as a satire at least. Serve. Raises. People's conscious emboldens people by by speaking out loud the things that they are thinking and afraid to say. So it's it's absolutely essential. But it's also a tight brown bag do you can get killed for it? Yes. It must be a new must be feeling the tight rope now even more than when you were writing it. I don't know I. It's interesting I haven't. I haven't. I nobody's thrown anything at nobody's yelled anything at me A. I don't know I I'm just. I think it's such a curiosity that I a fairly anodyne entertainer have gone in this particular direction Perhaps people haven't even discovered it yet or maybe they just don't understand the jokes I don't know. That you found yourself going in this direction is interesting to me because. I felt challenged. By your books. These books of satire that you stepped out. And spoke from the heart and the mind about the dangers you feel our country is going through and for thirty five years. Ever since I had spent ten years trying to get the equal rights amendment passed and I was nine only. Mixing in politics I think I thought of myself as an activist, and at the end of that time I thought okay I've done my part I gave it the office. Now. I'm going to devote myself to what I do best, which is my work in the arts. And I've been very strict about that. I haven't said anything about politics. No matter how strongly I felt. But. You challenged me with this book. Route I wish I could I wouldn't do this but I wish I could share our email exchange because you wrote me an email when I asked you to do it. For those of you listening in Alan Ir old friends. So I somewhat surprised him with this request and I told him feel absolutely free to say, no, I would completely understand. It was one of the first people I asked. And he wrote me the most beautiful and eloquent expression of what you just said and I know that feeling very well, you you stumped for the equal rights amendment. Passionately, you put so much into it and so and you burn your fingers by arousing a lot of anger and and antipathy, and ultimately you all the other supporters of the R. E. R. Eight lost and I could I completely understand why you would say and I'll I've done my duty? And in the you've gone publicly. With your advocacy ever since the most noble way on behalf of Science, the arts communication, all these things. But you have stirred steered clear of politics even though everybody knew your politics very well because of the the E R a Ura I was so touched when you said this particular historical moment has made me feel I've got to get back into the arena and this is a perfect time for us to recite the poem that you did for me in one of the videos news. One should we do that? Let's do it. Let's do it together. Okay. Yes. Okay. Great. Alan himself has broken this poem into a wonderful dialogue so that we could recite it together. It's called rueful Roger. And you will recognize it's about very soon in the course of the poem. But when we finish the poem, WE'RE GONNA. Tell you about another very interesting subject is what happens when events change after a poem is published. Here's rueful Roger. A sentence was due for rueful Roger Dirty trickster, artful, dodger, hangdog Dandy, Glum, and gaunt his trial had reached its day Newmont a year before in Lauderdale. The feds hauled Roger off to jail the charges sent reporters, scampering obstruction lies and witness tampering. Like the rest of dumped these crooks reporter hung on tenterhooks doomed to repeat what he had sown fortune frowned on Roger Stone. But aid and comfort from afar was smuggled in by William, bar. The AG sneaked on from the sidelines shortening. Rogers. Sentencing guidelines bar was certain none would notice favors from a friend of produce his cloak and dagger recommendation change nine. Years to. Mir Probation. Roger Crowed. Although he saw his clearly trashed the rule of law waiting for the judge's sentence he smugly pinned his fake repentance. But just when everything seemed hunky dory storm clouds darkened Rogers story. Dumpty Blab at bars intrusion, stirring anger and confusion. Four prosecutors cried disgraced threw a fit and quit the case two, thousand lawyers, ex DOJ demanded Barbie. Carted away. The JIG was up the press discovered a trail of dirt as yet. uncovered damning evidence to Tar. Dump these bond with William Bar. Then, the tail began to widen. Attacks on Strock McCabe and Biden yet charges eased with wink and grin for Rudy Eric Prince and Flim. An ugly truth came into Focus Portas and his Hocus pocus bending justice to his ends crushing does and shielding friends. A ruthless thug who dodged impeachment emperor of overreach moment. He'll try to dodge this bullet to. But honestly what else is new? This tale of Justice runamuck. has claimed one hapless sitting duck. Jail awaits sits. Latest Lodger. Foolish. Fallen persiflage. Dirty trickster artful dodger. Nut so art artful rueful. Roger. Applause applause applause. Plausible apply. Now just imagine you're poets out there when it's like to have allen all the read your comment verse. We're taking a brief pause in my livestream conversation with John Lithgow, which was hosted by the Ninety Second Street Y in new. York City. When we come back we'll talk about what happens when events change right after you published your satire of. And John will read a couple more poems from his book trumpy dumpty wanted a crown. And we'll take questions from the audience listening into our conversation. Right after this. We have some exciting news for clear and vivid listeners. Especially those who enjoy our conversations with scientists we're producing a new weekly series called science clear and vivid sponsored by the Copley. Foundation. In this special series, I talked with some of the leading figures shaping science in the United States focusing on how curiosity is the engine of discovery and innovation. So check it out. Science clear and vivid every Thursday for the next nine weeks. Is Clear and vivid and now back to my conversation with John. Lithgow. Pick up on a concern I had before recording that poem I read about Roger Stone. This is a conversation that we had by email. Before we recorded which was. When you wrote it Roger went to jail and it makes a really good ending to the poem. Then after you wrote it. He's out of jail. He also what kind of a problem that present you with this was very sweet. Well, one problem was all was not happy with this situation. Allen emailed me and said John. You know he's been he's been commuted. His sentence was commuted and you didn't I, said. Alan? It's true. But I had to submit this poem to the printers. It was too late to alter it. But my best defense is. Not Writing the book but a history book. I discovered early on especially with the velocity at which events come rushing by in the trump administration that every day that I wrote a poem the next day, it would be ancient history. And I realized well why don't you just embrace that? You're telling history, and in its way it makes a poem even more. Interesting. You sort of see my naivety at work. I'm tempted to because this is such a cool calm subject conversation. I'm tempted to read another poem called the invisible man, which is an even better demonstration of how a poem. Changes when events change after it has been written and published. This is a poem called the invisible man. And you'll know who it's about. It was written when this guy was flying high, he was on top of the world and he was one of the most powerful men in the trump universe and think what's happened to him since as you listen to this poem. It's called the invisible man. Is. Brad par scale I do what I can. I'm dumpty essential invisible man I've been that his side since the very creation his maestro of media disinformation. I'm the towering Texan who made him the Potus it I constantly try to escape public notice my political mantra I J I chant by the hour. Work in the dark when you're building dark power. Ren dumpty gears up for another election. My impact is felt like a viral infection. I launched all my strategies plots and ski Mata by harvesting truckloads of voters raw datta then clog up the whim with my Internet litter on facebook and Instagram to talk and twitter millions are lured by my grand master plan since no one can see. The invisible man. When the story is told of King Dumpty ascendants my name will appear in the very first sentence. His fiery climb was a walk in the park he provided the fuel I provided the spark. When I threw my dust in America's eye. Couldn't distinguish fact from ally your couldn't distinguish the bad from the good the invisible man. Did all that he could. Think of that poem in the context of what just happened to Brag Pascale. Not, only was he shunted out of the trump universe after the Tulsa can. PEP rally. But he has attempted suicide, he has been revealed as having cheated bilked this campaign can campaign donors of hundreds of thousands of dollars for his own use. And yet, he was strutting around like the cock of the walk when I wrote this poem. Not. To mention the fact that in the course of the poem I mentioned viral infection. which had never even heard of when I wrote the right. Great. It's so interesting the. The reader the naive reader. Can can look at that and say. My God, you're you're taking off against a man. WHO ATTEMPTED SUICIDE You're hitting below the belt. I think this is but but it's only because times have changed and once once the book is out time, we'll change even more. There's no. There's no chance to race sentences that some people will see his. Unappetizing. I like to think that I wrote with a certain amount of empathy on a certain level I pitied Donald Trump. I think he's a very insecure and damaged man I wouldn't be that man. For All, the world And Brad. Par Scale. How can you not feel sorry for? For. A man who who has been brought Solo. So quickly when he was riding so high. and yet. You know. There are two things at work in a lot of these poems. Hubris Karma. Riding High brought low. Those two elements are also a big part of comedy. So you know I find it when the last line of that of that poem, the invisible man did all that he could I find that a very resonant line. Now, I mean out to congratulate myself on it is by pure accident. I think a what tied up in all of this. Is. The Need. I personally feel I can't speak for you but I personally feel. It's important that. Regardless of what I might say from here on out. About how deeply I feel our nation is threatened. Democracy itself. that. I don't wish. Harm. To Donald Trump. I don't want him to be so sick. That he would rather die I know what that's like when night on the mountain top seventeen years ago and Chile. I nearly died with a pain so Terrific that I would've been glad to die to get to stop the pain, and in this case, we hear reports that it feels when you're in the worst stages of covid. That it feels as though you're drowning. Constantly for hours or days. It must be a nightmare and I don't wish that on anybody that's torture. I don't I don't. I'm not a I'm not a fan of torture as as Donald Trump right but it. But I am a fan of democracy and all of the transgressions that I've seen in have not said anything about. Publicly. Could all be solved if we maintain our democracy. The. Transgressions against women and taking children from their parents and losing track of them. Being careless about the lives of thousands of people because he has as little as little time ago as. An hour or two as we speak. He said something like don't be afraid of COVID. which which in a if if you're follower, that's that's like Kool aid to your followers I know it's it's dreadful. You Know Allan. This is why I was. So delighted, you agreed to do this conversation because of your own history with. Comedy and satire I mean when I think of Mash, the reason why that show was so groundbreaking and unique, and there really hasn't been anything quite like it since. Is that it makes horror with comedy. In such a a startling way and you yourself your performance was part and parcel of this, I'm not simply. Flattering you. Hear it is. It is why? Thank you yourself. Well everybody agrees. With It was. You were extraordinary in the show extraordinary and the subject was extraordinary and it's had so much to do with how challenging it was. It's it's easy to make people laugh, but it's very difficult to make them laugh. Laughter spiced with pain. and and horror. And yet, that is so important to do that. So Cathartic. Would, important to laugh too. Laughing is. Getting a lot of people through this pandemic in spite of the tragedy all around us. But you you remind me. Of something that I just forgot. I took aside to her wait a minute. Oh Yeah. The idea that has been proposed by one or two people very interesting. We've been talking about satire and comedy. And the suggestion has been made that. Donald Trump. was successful in his campaign because he ran as a comedian He he in some ways he was neither a Democrat nor Republican but he was abortion built comic yeah. And he had the rhythms and on one other important thing about running as a comic when you do comedy and most comedians subscribe to this idea. That everything is fair game in comedy right. Now it's when you, it's the court jester, the food. He's the only one who can say a the king has no close. What's this is Yeah Yeah So now you have the king becoming the fool. Yeah, and what and you're that phrase you just used everything is fair game in in comedy. Trump has taken the approach that everything is fair game in politics he says the. Amish in things back in that primary campaign. When he said Ted Cruz was father was involved in the construction zone in the Kennedy assassination. or or the the the origin story of his life in politics the birther conspiracy theory everything game in politics you know I wrote an editorial in The New York Times a year ago. About trump as entertainer. And the whole theme actually I have to confess. Since then I've decided that my theme was completely wrong my point was he's a lousy entertainer and that was basically by my lights he appears to have absolutely no sense of irony self awareness. Timing. He's he I've never heard him actually tell a joke. I've never even seen him to laugh it. His huge campaign rallies are like arena comedy events, people roar with laughter. So in fact, I was quite wrong. He is a very effective entertainer with his audience. You can be a terrible performer and extremely successful. Yeah. If he said something particularly thought to be reprehensible he would say, Hey, just kidding. Yeah, it's been a hell of a hell of a thing to live through. It has and. The, what we're doing now is shaking our heads in dismay disbelief. But if anybody agrees with any part of what we said the chance. In many states is right now. To do something about it to as you say, one of versus. To vote. The other not so hidden agenda of the book was was to get people to vote and. There's no there's no mystery as to which way I wanted them to vote. I am tempted to read the last poem in the book just because it ends with exactly that kicker shall I do that? Yes. Called there are three trump D dumpty poems in this book beginning middle and end, and this is the one that you've already heard the first one in that video. This is the last one is how the book ends it's called trump. T-. Dumped wanted a title. Continuing the sort of monarchy theme. Company dumpty wanted a title to him. An imperious handle was vital dumpty the bold or dumpty the great a Monica lending his legacy. Wait he tortured his brain for a suitable label dumpty the genius or Dumpty the stable Dumpty, the wise or perhaps the sublime not. Dumpty the orange, it's too hard to rhyme. While urgent emergencies went unaddressed, an appropriate nickname had dumpty obsessed. But given what's past and what's yet to befall him history will shortly decide what to call him. A whose pants a routine they on fire could be dumpty the huckster or dumpty the liar. With his bullshit throughout our pandemic of. An. Apt nome-de-guerre would be dumpty the crack. With his electoral help he's received from afar, there's dubbed the Russian or dumpty the czar racial intolerance open the spigot for the odious record of dumpty the bigot. Daddy's podiatrist helped him defer and dumpty the bone and dumpty the spur take his glorious past and for accuracy sake call him dumpty the letcher or dumped the rick. The scandals and crimes that have always erupted? Make Him dumpty the vinyl malign or corrupted compared to the others going back to the first whatever you name him he's dumpty the worst. But. Title can conjure this ludicrous Gent approaches who hastened a nation's descent. The end of this age profound discontent I'll settle for dumpty the EX PRESIDENT Now. That was it was applause. That's awfully mean. Who's ailing in a hospital but? No matter what happens? In these few days this next week. No matter how. He suffers no. Matter how much sympathy we have for him. Nothing can change the last four years. Those all those things have happened. and. They have to be remembered. I say, in the introduction to this book, I wrote it for three reasons to make people laugh. To make the mad and to make them remember. And with any luck to make them vote. Well you could fix the couplet in which you say. Oranges too hard to rhyme. Because it's not such a bad idea to say orange you. Glad you can vote. But technically, that's not a rhyme. Oh to hell with it. Can you believe. All my time thinking about rhymes and meter for the last eight months. I'm exhausted vote. It is fun to work within the limits. Isn't it? Or? Yeah it's wonderful. It's wonderful. As soon as you think of the last rhyme until then it's misery. The happy misery of writing I. Heard that. Alan Jay. Lerner, took like three weeks to figure out the last line of all of wouldn't it be lovely. and. You know what? The last line of wouldn't it be lovely. Lady. Lovely lovely. Lovely. Lovely. Lovely. Arena. It sounds like he gave up at the last minute. I think it's time to take some questions from our folks who are listening and watching. How did you first get interested in poetry Well. You know I've always written Doggerel poems just as a Lark I. Remember my father used to write a big Christmas poem every year on. Christmas morning they would go in the next room and he would come out. Forty five minutes later with a poem that included everybody's Name. I there's been a lot of Larkin's poem poetry not serious at all, but like on cast party The the final closing night party at the end of a play I would. I would recite a poem that included all the actors names I given to commencement addresses at prep schools with small graduating classes in which used the names of all the graduating seniors. A lot of fun but you know I this all started when I, I sang the major general's song at a gala for the public theater and altered the last verse to make it a song about Michael. T Flynn I am the very model of an ex-lieutenant-general and I made all these catty remarks he just been just been fired and indicted and all this, and that was huge and i. told my literary agent about this and he said, well, there's your next book. And that's how this all started. I never would have. Imagined myself going so public with my own politics, I'm too shy by nature to do that. or or publishing poetry at all, and in fact, this is the first time I've ever published my own illustrations. It was this marvelous editor, David. He just he wouldn't let up on me said, you've got to do this. And that's what's turned me into a poet. Well I, I should follow in your footsteps because I have. I have written what I considered to be extraordinarily good limerick. What is we were driving through England and our our task was every time we went through a town. We had to make up a liberal limerick about that town borough. Good. So as we drove, we drove through the town of settle. And I after about ten miles came up with. A beer drinking lady from settle. Took a mid morning. P. In her kettle. At quarter to three, her husband made t and said Darling US tested my mettle I. Couldn't get it out. Has Pretty Good. Now. Here's here's. Here's a question what has been most impactful. To keeping you informed and finding your satire activism voice. What's most to informing you? Well, I must say I've been obsessed for not obsessed, but it just been part of my. The rhythm of light my life is watching those talking heads on Msnbc Most Nights Rachel Maddow God bless her she gets in there with her extraordinary staff of researchers. I imagine must have an extraordinary staff of researchers and they they sift through the news and they find these extraordinary stories. And they. They set my hair on fire I. Get so angry and then I go plunging in and do my own research. You know a detailed poem about Jaysekulow or Elaine Chao or Eric Prince in many cases I I I've heard. These people I caught my notice when I heard them reported on MSNBC and I know it's it's the. It is the direct. The opposite pole from Fox News and you pretty much know they're preaching to the verdict to but her stories are incredibly well researched and full of information and always so timely. Alexandra Costa. The entire appalling story of the shenanigans in the legal system of Florida that exonerated Jeffrey Epstein ten years eleven years before everybody else knew about it. I saw that deeply re reported by Rachel Maddow and I spun my poem in the first book called. A cost of Agassi's right out of that just packed with information I mean the other thing about my poems is every one of them. As you say, they are annotated. There's a little paragraph that says. Factually what everything that just preceded. It's all about. So we have a funny lighthearted witty poem, and then you have just pure facts to say this is not fake. That I that's because of journalism you know God bless journalists. To make. The enemy of the people is a sad moment. Disgraceful. Now, this is a challenging notion and I think therefore, we should bring it up. John and Alan you must know that in the entertainment industry being a Republican. or Conservative is a mark against you. There is this popular idea that everybody in the entertainment business is liberal. Have you found that to be true? Well I think they are the majority are liberal of I. I have plenty of Conservative friends, some of my best friends. Are Conservatives. I don't know I'm I am I am ill an elitist I know I know trump's base has great contempt for the coastal elites There is a terrible anti intellectualism that runs through this country. And always has it's been and I I. I confess I a snob on behalf of education educating yourself re reading all all the good news instead of the genuine fake. and I do believe the. That most entertainers I, they are highly educated people they're not fools and I duNNo. I show my own colors and they are very snobbish I'm not proud of my snobbism, but I'm but I'm very intent on maintaining my. MIC BY. Intellectual. Curiosity and I'm very proud of being an educated person so I think. That's a long answer to a short question. But I think that's why most entertainers are liberals. This is interesting. How do you find Alaron in these dark times? God. What what makes me laugh? Shits. Creek makes me laugh these days. I have to confess a guilty pleasure. I don't know whether you do this Allen but I I've recently start going back and rea and rewatching old episodes of third rock from the Sun and they make me laugh like A. Nice I this all happened because I I I got Jane Curtain and Joey Gordon Levitt in amongst all these performers to do the videos and just talking to them about the old times. Maybe WANNA go back and watch third rock and as you as you also probably know you you forget I don't remember doing any of these episodes I watched them as if they're ran new and they make me laugh so hard it just feels great. Let. Me Look up another question from the audience. How do you intend to spend November fourth? God well, I'm completely convinced that. That November fourth, and in fact, the whole month of November is going to be not just anticlimactic but complete shit storm We just have to keep calm and be patient and let the electoral system, count the votes and run its course and I think that's going to take weeks. It is one of the great disgraces so many people have spent so much time trying to undermine the upcoming election. I think we just have to be prepared for it. So I guess on November Four. I'll just get drunk and stay that way for a month. either. Way. This is a follow up question from the one we had earlier John does ones, politics really influence how employable one can be in the entertainment business I haven't experienced that of you candidly, I, think it's probably harder for right-wing artists in the entertainment business. It probably affects them more than liberals. You mean, they have they have trouble being employed. I don't know I. I've seen a couple of my very strenuous right wing actor friends struggle. and. I don't know whether that's because of their politics maybe it's willful on their part while I'm sorry to hear that that that it shouldn't be it shouldn't be but I've sort of avoided comments on my. On the online people commenting on on my poems and my appearances, a lot of people who were big fans of third rock from the Sun for example or Dexter. they've probably written me off. But something has changed I have felt it's much more important to get out there in the last four years and let people know what you really believe and stand up for what I hope for. I continue to hope for and I've been working toward dish for. Maybe. Fifteen or twenty years. Is that. Whatever direction we go in that, we don't stop talking to one another that we don't stop listening to one another. The, the idea that the other side. Are eightieths. Horse Stupid Or reprehensible. He's not going to get us anywhere and I'm I'm trying to help us listen. I hope we do I. Hope The people don't like your book. We'll just think of think about you is a person who is not up an idea point of view, put it in the pot and stir it up. Well, it's one thing that. That really moves me about Joe Biden is e, he genuinely seems to. Feel the same way that that it's so important that we changed the whole politics of divisiveness. That's that's almost half the top priority and I, think a lot of people are responding to that. They may respond to that more than they do to his to his political positions. They may not even be aware of his political positions, but they know a dignified decent person when they see him. Or her. Well as always when we get together, I would like to go on. Into the wee hours with you but we're supposed to stop around now rallies I knew it would be great and it was great. Allen. I wish we were in the same room and on the same coast in the same great city I'll get back there sometime soon it's great to see you for these few minutes check to Alan you too good night. Special episode clear and vivid recorded during a live stream event hosted by the Ninety Second Street Y in New York City. John Let's go is an actor who portrayed vast range of characters in a wide range John Ras for decades. On? Broadway. In films and on television these given remarkable performances. And now, he's emerged as a best selling satirical writer. For more about John Visit John Lithgow Dot. com. Clear and vivid executive producer is Graham shed our associate producer Gene Jamais? Are Sound engineers. Dan. Zulu and our publicist is Sarah Hill. You can subscribe to our podcast for free at apple podcast stitcher or wherever you like to listen. Next in our series of conversations I talk with Lori Santos. The Yale University psychology professor who's experience with unhappy students his letter to insights into how we can all be happier. My guess is for most people listening to this podcast. If you have like you know a decent middle class income if you have a roof over your head and food on the table pretty much changing your circumstances is not gonNa Affect your happiness. In the way you think which is a startling discovery violates every intuition. I definitely have about happiness and that most people have we think that happiness comes from our. Circumstances but in practice, it comes from all kinds of other things that comes from our mindsets. It comes from our behaviors which is frustrating because you know as a happiness expert these days I see a Lotta people putting lots of work into changing your circumstances, but that's not gonNA help you in the way you think Laurie Shanto sharing her insights into the secrets of happiness next time when clear and vivid. For more details about clear and vivid than to sign up for my newsletter. Please visit Alan ALDA DOT COM. And you can also find us on facebook and Instagram at clear and vivid, and I'm on twitter at. Alan, alda. Thanks for listening. Bye. Bye.
Web Optimization at SAP Qualtrics with Jared Gardner
"Today's podcast is brought to you by audible. You can get a free audio download and Thirty Day free trial at audible trial dot com slash. Lash Alan and Alan Spelled A. L. A. N. for those that don't know again on trial dot com slash Alan for all of us. It's about predicting where the consumer is going and getting Catholic right one. One of the things we want to do is create odds that don't suck then bracing chains create great possibility. I know at heart. This is marketing today. This is a part of a series of interviews that recorded the Internet summit in Raleigh North Carolina. Today I'm talking to Jared Gardner owner. SAP Call Tricks Jared's leads search conversion rate optimization analytics and content programs across many verticals various large companies. He's currently at quarterbacks exchanged focuses on scaling demand ration- through unpaid channels prior to tricks jared work for the agency red door interactive helping major brands like Charles Schwab Essex yes and centurylink grow their search footprint. I hope you enjoy this conversation with. Jared Gardner Welcome to the show Jerry. Thanks for having me. This is awesome. Awesome place we in a podcast interview. I know we've got a little background. Noise is partly because we're at the Internet summit here and you're speaking but I wanNA hear the question that wind is you get into search and and conversion optimization yeah so I think it's as most Seo's it's kind of one of those stories where nobody really sat out in junior high and said I wanted to be an SEO and I grew up everybody kinda stumbled into it so I actually was working in broadcast media. That's where my degree was working for radio station but I gotta saw the writing on the wall. All of that wasn't the best industry in with at the time Pandora was really big and so I decided to kind of pivot a bit went back to school. It was coming out of school and just really wanted to a a different job. I stumbled upon an SEO opportunity. And I said to myself like well digital marketing the Internet's not get any smaller. So that's got to be an okay place to work and then ended up really enjoying what I was doing and have gone from there. I was about seven years ago. Nice when did you end up a quarter and now it's sap quality. Yeah Yeah exactly. So for January will be two years which culture is kind of a lifetime so I was employee about fifteen hundred. We're almost a three thousand already in two years. So when growing Bronx super-quick that's amazing. That's amazing so I know you're talking about Scaling Search and conversion efforts here the Internet summit. Can you tell us how how you're scaling are creating that scale at sap cultures. Yeah so Kinda alluded to it a minute ago. Quarks super-quick so we're going. Revenue went about forty eight percent year over year on a pretty big base. I think I lost public revenue. Shared number was was about five hundred million and so all of the marketing channels and demand generation channels. Really we have to keep up with that. So we're focused on really like action every day and so really with that. We try to stay out of powerpoint. I try to do as little reporting reporting as possible and just make sure every day. We're making our site. You know one percent better every day so that we can keep up with that forty percent growth year of year so we can get Kinda into some of those tactics picks that were doing a little bit later but it really just kind of revolves around may just moving quick as you can to keep up with that company growth. GotTa go are their advice or tips. He'd give other marketers trying to drive web traffic and conversion. Yeah Yeah I think on that like execution and move fast side. There's a couple of buckets that I that I really liked to focus on on one is what I call contact. Milwaukee is just making sure that your website especially in organic search. There's there's two ways that you can get. Traffic is one you can rank for more terms or two. Oh you can rank better for the term or get more traffic for the terms of the RT have and so I like to kind of break that into two sections and make sure we're doing both and so one is content Milwau- city city and this is one of the hardest things that people struggle with. So I try to make sure that our site is basically forty percent bigger than it was last year. So we're adding more and more pages through things like blogs blogs things like product feature pages editorial traffic Things like that and so. I think we're that comes into play when we're talking about like budgets and how the whole organization and these come together and support is that creation is super expensive in all honesty like you need writers. You need designers to design the assets. You'RE GONNA need developers to build pages depending ending on how how what type of content creating and so just making sure that the team is enabled to go create all that content because SEO teams typically going to say we need this page and it should live here but then it actually goes all the other teams to execute that stuff in most organizations. And I think more that you can give the SEO team the resources they need to do without relying on other teams like having a content tat writer that it's like really driven directly by the team and having signers that we have a dedicated bucket or resources for them that really helps us get more pages out quickly so really like we look at. How many new cages did we every week and as kind of a metric like are we doing the right things to get where we need to go? And how are you figuring out what you're gonNA write on. I mean that's a lot of contents of creating. Yeah totally I touched it in that in my mytalk the yesterday here at Internet we have contact gap analysis. There's a few all out there that's where you really start to get down into the weeds and so the easiest ways kind of look at what your competitors are ranking for so we kind of create a database that it's like every keyword that we know of and then all of our competitors rank for our rank for it and then you can kinda slice and dice that so for example if there's a specific keyword phrase that three your competitors ranking for it and you're ranking on page four or five four. That's like usually a good indicator that if you went an attack that one you could probably make for it if all your competitors are you have the product so we try to do that kind of scale. There's a view of tools like a draft. So we'll help you do that. And then there's also some some ways you can do it in an excel sheet and then back gives you basically a punch list and it's just like started the best opportunity and work your way down when you run out of opportunities around the analysis again and start over well. Are there examples you might share from like past experience where it call tricks that you think it's a good a good example execution of Seo or conversion optimization yeah a little bit more on the conversion side so honestly I'm my over the last six months or so I've evolved as we've grown the SEO team. I actually get my hands dirty and Seo and then I'd have typically in my career so I'm really focused on the conversion side right now and for B. Two B.. There's a lot of different offers as I call them. So we've been trying to figure out which offer works best on our website so you think typical obt website. You'RE GONNA have request them. Oh you're going to have a free trial or a free account typically you're going to have content downloads like e books one pagers. You're going to have webinars things like that. And so each one of those tend to have different business value like if you think of the sales pipeline generated from that which most B. Two B. Companies. That's really the metric that marketing teams are measured on is that imagine pipeline generation. So trying to figure out where typically we can pull the lever to say get more free accounts those accounts don't convert from mql the opportunity and the same same rate and so it's always a balancing act of like. Yeah we can really juice the top of the funnel with an offer that has lower friction but those leads are less qualified and ended up turning into last night. One I and so we're honestly you Kinda jury still out on what the best in metric is for us but we last this last quarter. We introduced a watch Demo Komo offer on our homepage and we saw one hundred and seventy eight percent increase in the number of demo requests. And right now we don't have enough data to say like we definitely know it doesn't convert as well but we had way more conversions so we're trying to still figure out if that makes up if the increase in names or MQL's makes up for the decrease marketing qualified leads. Sorry right there makes out for the decrease opportunities that Celsius masterwork so that B. Two B. B. to be tough and I yeah I think I came from e-commerce world before hours at Kuala tricks and like bb animal an extra so there's so many touch points it's really hard to know which which one should get the credit for each right right and that can be the hard even in Well ecommerce maybe not so much but in other businesses when you got other advertising other marketing tactics going on it. It's so hard to know. Exactly exactly what was contributed to yet sale. Absolutely I used to work on ECOMMERCE and like we have an advantage event. We have is called export. We had last year. We had Obama and Oprah speak at it so it's really big event and that one there's a ticket price sell so we could go look and say like this channel so this much ticket revenue and I look at that and I'm like man. I miss ecommerce when it was just that simple. That's great. That's great. Well where do you think the future future of searching conversions GONNA go. Yeah this is an interesting topic for me as I was talking about. I really like to focus on like what can we do this week. That's GONNA start to move our metrics and so I try not not to get too too far ahead and like really the bleeding edge so like people will talk about voice search things like that. Hey I all that I like to keep it a little more tangible or like what are the some of the headwinds that the industry is going to face in the next year right like tangibly. What's on the horizon? And I think one thing we know for sure is like Google being the monopoly that it is in search here in the. US is that it has shareholders. It has to keep happy and those shareholders want to see revenues increase. And I think something. Like eighty percent of Google's revenues come from paid paid search clicks and so the only the way that they use their business is my pulling that lever to show more paid search advertising. And so with that. Typically we're GONNA see organic clicks go down and so I think. CMO's marketing budgets are going to be more and more paid search. Organic search is going to decrease especially for those like high value words. Could you know I think it was in June. Google had not so great earnings report and two weeks later. They changed the color of the ad symbols to be from my yellow yellow green and so like people don't really notice symbol like paid. Click through rates. Went up when they did that and we see we see them doing that. All the time where they're continuing to make the advil more like an organic Hannah Click. They're showing more ads making bigger. There's site links and now three headlines and we'll just keep getting bigger and bigger and so that's always gonna you know it's a zero sum game to a certain I agree. There's more paid clicks. There's going to be less organic clicks and so we have to go up against that and I think one of the ways you can combat that a little bit is typically that's going to be for very transactional keyword postel in Raleigh North Carolina. That's transactional like somebody's looking to buy something. There where a lot of companies can focus more on the informational intent ten keywords. So if you think about in a BBC space like if you use one of our key words for example like what is net promoter score that somebody trying to learn something and you can be that resource on the Internet that teaches them and then kind of nurture them down the funnel through like an e book or something like that and so the reason why. I think that's kind of the future. Because people are going to be West last is willing to bid on those keywords that are informational because they're not going to turn into money right away so there's going to be hard to get your return on adspend on a key word for somebody WHO's not looking to buy five so I think that's really on the search side one of the big ones and then also our organic is Goule is actually combating that a bit with keywords at our informational national or easy to answer like if you look at like if you google what time it is and the pass you would get ten results. That were clocks now. Just you don't get any actual search results Justin's Komo News time and tells you the weather tells you how tall the Empire State building. Is things like that. So we call those zero click results and Google is going to do that more so I think it's basically like if you're can keep you on the site they're going to Google with zero click search whissle or if they can make money they're gonNA show a lot of ads and send them off so organic is going to keep getting smaller more more or less kind of on the conversion side. I think the the biggest trend that I'm seeing especially on the B. Two B. Business that we focus on is that consumers are expecting more to be experiences and behaviors from companies. So we think of things like you know spotify Amazon people are really used to like this friction. Lists sign up process. Don't have to talk to anybody. You know signing up for netflix compared to buying comcast I give you think about how much less give them your credit card right. Boom you're done versus like call somebody. Somebody shows up. You GotTa talk about different plans you got signed a contract things like that and so traditionally. BB's been more of that comcast experience whereas like requested demo. We're going to have five phone calls or send you a contract. You're going to go to your legal team and have that red line that we're GONNA negotiate. Then I'm going to lower the price and finally six six months later you're GONNA get a licensed software and you see some of these heartbeat companies right now like Atlassian who their socks just killing an so they own Jira and Trello and some other like productivity type applications like they Well over a billion dollars in revenue a year. They don't have a single salesperson. So it's all self driven sign up type experience onboard themselves and my zoom is another great example of that. You don't know if you've followed their IPO last year earlier this year but it just blew up and they are all mike product driven self sign up the products are so great that you get one person using it and it just spreads like wildfire and organization. Cool we'll jared. Thanks so much for coming on on. The show's been enlightening. Yeah thank you thank you for having me. It was great to see you here out here some of my first year here and I think I'll definitely come back. Yeah I it's Alan again Marketing today was created and produced by me. If you're new to marketing today please feel free to write us a review on eighteen or your favorite listening platform. Don't forget to subscribe to tell your friends and colleagues about the show. I love to hear from listeners. And you can contact me at marketing today. PODCASTS DOT COM. They also find complete show notes links to anything we talk about on any episode. You can also search our archives. I'm Alan Heart Art Marketing. Today's podcast is brought to you by audible. You can get a free audio download and thirty Thirty Day free trial at audible trial dot com slash. Alan and Alan is spelled A. L. A. N. for those that don't know again audible trial dot com slash Allen.
Alan 'The Nice One' Jones
"The differentiations important in venture funds just as important as it is in startups Adam. Spencer welcome today one. The show that goes back to the very beginning to share the stories of incredible estranged setups and the organizations that supported. Today's episode was made in part by the support of New Economy media publisher of the New Economy News innovation us without the judge. Roy Moore at New Economy Dot Media. Today you're going to hear it from Alan Jones is Ellen Jones and a startup entrepreneur mentors as well the founders and despise the movies. This is a special episode between me. The Adam Spencer and the other Allen Jones usually welcome today one shares either stories of startups in their founders or organizations that help startups. But sometimes when we get the opportunity to speak to an ambassador advocate a champion of the Australian startup ecosystem. We take it in this episode of welcome today one. We focusing on investing in the main challenge the Australian setup seeing faces moving forward. We saw this episode with Allen explaining why he and business partner. Emily rich name the to be venture fund. Might they see 'em eight venturous lesson number eight And that's because we think that relationships with the founders are an apple for the really important at the early stages of venture backed company. money's important to the business but also connections and advice and strategic help. And you're more likely to people if you really like them so We think it's important for us to build a portfolio of stock founders that We look for the same So that when they fall on hard times need help we rented rush forward because the Mites what makes may be different to other venture funds out there differentiations important in venture funds just as important as it is in startups and so we Both come from a product and technical background emily's A skilled city of The successful exit unaccompanied machine vision as a service. And I'm an ex product manager originally We too scruffy nodes and Jason Tissue Earlier. Don't come from the take stop industry toll and those come from textile industry. I'm not Moloch. Come from sales and see. Ceo Track or legal or finance. And so we think are super bowel is able to go in and and look at. The quality of the product is being built and the quality of the team building it. We think it's possible to become a loss accessible company one day by starting off with should product and then later on when you're really big investing a lot of money and making a really good program but we just think it's it's a heck if you start out with a world class product and a world class product and technical team working on. So that's what we focus. Ellen is a mental to startups and an investor who has been involved in Australian style up saying from the very early days. And he's in the process of getting a brand new venture fund going so he's in a good position to speak about funding. In Australia we begin by asking. Alan wise precede funding important in Australia. Well that's a really good question and I think it's only of So it's it's particularly important in this industry right now It hasn't always been as important news now on the maybe Thompson. The future won't be purely what what happens is The earliest stage of funding for any style is probably the found his own time and money. And when you maxed out credit cards you've taken your own risk as far as you can go. Ideally you will go out and trying to a friends and family around Gone Doris. You'll go to your ex boss. You don't do some of these people and they're invested that they are investing in who they believe to be on what they think. Your capacity is as an entrepreneur. Don't necessarily able to score the likelihood you'll start up may succeed but the backing. You is entrepreneur the next round after that might be fueled by an accelerator program. Like the remarkable Woomera Day or collider stop model the Chilean programs. They'll they'll work with you for three to six months maybe up to a year And they'll invest some money in the in the business a stage the May also be wanted to angel investors that you might come across through one of those programs that my nearly angel take into the company to give you a little bit more runway and then typically Australia That comes a stage where company can be valued at around about two or three million dollars. Where rises what we call a seed round choose me and that? Siedman strategy with moments lies they feel angel investors and there's a few challenges as Donald founder come particularly one coming celebrate a program in rising ground for Angel Investors. I guess the first problem is that you probably only have three to nine months of runway remaining when you graduate from the accelerator program and how accelerated programs finish up in the US in in in programs like Coleman Federal techstars is There will be twenty thirty companies that Demo Day Better approach blindster's right there in drinks stage the conversation stage. After the after the pitches they'll come up and say. Hey you know a really interested in this electric investing participating around. That doesn't happen in Australia. So it's it's more like a a six multi team of journey from Australia. Janitor Rice Assayed round part of that is because a lot of our angel investors. Just isn't you at this as l. Started FOUND HIS UP. They haven't making perhaps their their third or fourth whom basement and a in inside a probably haven't done much more than that for luck. They'll be making the investment so they're naturally going to be much much more cautious about it and also in general an angel investor doesn't really have that many third-party accountability and this is so as a venture fund manager. I have the fun has investment hypothesis. This is L. Focus is how long we're going to be investing in companies. This is how many of them will will do follow on investment team. We might have a particular focus on an industry or set of industries that are related. Bax particular concept technologies but without public and all that is known So you can go to a tree where you can go. To blackbird capital rampant bullies grant funds and. You can couple minutes on their website and you can see what companies are looking for. And so you know who approach and then if you choose to approach the other ones as well you know at least. It's an outside chance angel. Investors on hand don't generally aunt that explicit about what they're looking for and they may change their mind about what they want to invest in next in life that sometimes it's as simple as one of their previous investments is looking a bit shaky them and decides to take some time out of the market in my b. you know some of his L. Your marriage may fail and you need to set aside. Half of what you felt was yours To give to you to your expert Or might also be. Sometimes an angel investor will think I'm investing in in blockchain because blockchain's the next heart space and all star reading the blockchain. So cool anymore and I don't think Drones DRONES DRONES DOWN SO. It's very difficult for a style offender. Who is trying to grow a business and hire a team and make that last bit of runway last as long as it can also be going out there and doing the research about these angels who are changing their mind all the time and chopping in and out of the market And very much competitive tension to actually close around strata. There's much more capital trying to get into a five year deals in San Francisco than there are in Sydney in Sydney most Angela versus can afford to take the time and essentially the the long way before they actually brought a chick the more risk than that there have been able to reduce. You know the company you know. I've only had nine months of runway. Eleven and twelve months later they still going. We'll that's you know that's even benefit me as ambassador so appreciate Venture Fund doesn't behave like an angel investor so appreciate Angel Funds as if your company we pretty much have to make this many investments over the next few years to if if you best companies we say in this by his then come talk to us and and it's in our interest well as your interest to get the deal done quickly 'til we move onto our next investment and next semester to wrap up this episode of welcome today one and I know it's been a short one. I want to ask Alan what he thinks. The biggest challenge the Australian stop saying faces moving forward I think The main challenges macroeconomic For for many other nations out there that have understood that The world's economies turning into technology economy The resources will always be important and agricultural always be important and services and banking and telecommunications all of those industries going away anytime soon but most of the future potential economic growth is definitely in the technology industry and more and more in the software that runs all the things we know so the great advances were made in the last decade The hardware the phones causing us the things that's become much more powerful and capable of minimal things and foster spades but the huge advantage has been in our ability to make those devices to more things better through software because software does need to be unplugged and and you know replace with something else that comes from another part of the world and stuck back into that machine on so an electric vehicle was really smart for him. You know we can ship out an update to that. Make it much much better so Australia has always been an export-focused comey arm. And we have export exported primarily agricultural resources and services. Industries will continue if we want to participate in most of the economic value of the next one hundred years has kind of come from. Excuse me being a will later in developing the software the Palace. The highway one challenge for us is a nation is that We used to people working groups and those groups of people working together in the same room. I made startup founders. All the time home learning lots of habit really valuable lessons on how to work with distributed team of until Slack Zoo Jira and base camp. All of these tools are helping us Actually would together as a team remotely but the communication processes and the way we agree on how to move forward and and the way we recall what we've done so we don't make the same mistakes again. All of that changes dramatically. Who working in a remote team. We're a tiny tiny nation of twenty something million people And so there's a tremendous future potential for us if if if we can strike the right balance between waiting together in the same physical space some of the Times that we can network and get to know each other as real people but then in the rest of the time becoming the world's best working remotely and as powerful Montaigne because although most of our population is up and down the eastern seaboard of Australia. It's still a tremendously large eastern seaboard drive from seeing a cough SABA. Which isn't even halfway custody. South Wales a couple of weeks ago to come at the textile community there. And that's that would send drive. We'll take you halfway across Europe. Go through three or four countries so I this is our opportunity to be in a zero cost industry. We can ship software and have it. In every global market in local currency local language of the click button gets pushed out to an APP store and get approved. Them being there is so we have an opportunity to still putting live sheep on on ship so having opportunity still putting on an orange ships call ships and wedding for it to get to market on eleven weeks time and we can actually be participating in that global software economy. The foster we invest in Skilling up our workforce training young people to to have the skills to do that and as founders recognizing that we have a responsibility to shareholders into our team to stop using remote working as a as a stopgap measure or work around for now but to start thinking of it as a competitive advantage. We have no choice but to get great at it but then once with corporate leaders that thanks for listening to this show tweet episode of welcome today one featuring Allen Jones. If you'd like to support the show you can do that. By writing interviewing the podcast by going to write die one DOT com. And thank you for giving these episode of welcome today. One your attention. This episode was created by me Adam. Spencer interview conducted by me. Adam spent and a big thank you to Allen Jones for taking the time to be involved music by Lee Roosevelt full attribution on our website. That welcome today. One DOT com. This episode was produced and edited by me Adam. Spencer thank you and see you next time.
We Are All Photographers - Elia Locardi and Alan Winslow
"You're listening to the h. Photography podcast for over forty years being h has been the professional source for photography video audio and more for your favorite robert gear news and reviews visited h. Dot com or download the beach up to your iphone or android device. Now here's your host alan white's greetings and welcome to this week's episode of the being photography podcast. Today we're going to be presenting not one but two conversations with photographers who are also using their skills skills as educators. I we're gonna talk with travel and landscape photographer ally cardi who is well known for his blogging educational videos on youtube alive. There's gonna discuss his latest series and how he balances his teaching with his own personal photo projects after a short break will be welcoming photographer alan winslow. We're going going to be discussing allen's editorial and grant funded projects including a series of development that utilizes interactive technology to teach about endangered species in in addition to his work the new york times forbes and like a camera alan teaches photography at the international center photography the maine media workshops brooklyn central the the palm beach photographic center and n._y._c. salt okay all that said here we go okay we are with eliah low cardi and you are a fuji the x. shooter all right ambassador shooter up its fujifilm x photographer okay which it sounds like you no longer use their products. When you say expertise we might be an ex expedite. Okay okay points different than having an ex ex wife <music> superhero group longer all what's great those we the arm cross at events expos but and then if you say like exposing it's like i can have a negative connotation so yeah we can do it exactly it was good anyway. You've got some interesting educational projects that you're working on rumor. Has it still yeah so since two thousand allston fourteen. I developed a ongoing series of educational videos with f. Stoppers dot com impact from stoppers and over the course of these last four years we've had four complete seasons called photograph in the world one two three and four that actually takes the student all the way through both the shooting the planning on location in camera settings all the way through capturing and editing and post processing so essentially the season one photograph. The world one starts in iceland. Maybe you've never picked up a camera before never done any post processing but within the first few lessons were already composing shooting and post this processing all of those images that were capturing in the field together so made this really unique is we'll spend for the first series we spent an entire year creating photographing the world one which ended up being fifteen different lessons in different parts of the world where we actually capture and create all the images together from start to finish in the field and all the way through post processing housing so it was an incredibly ambitious projects and when we started talking about it they kind of pitched me on it and i'm like you know guys probably is going to fail miserably because of weather and all these different different things but somehow it works and throughout the years we've we've expanded on that from the intro to landscape to the advance landscape to different parts of the world to technique that i use called blending moments in time and that's when we take portions of let's say a sunset and part of a cityscape during blew our and blending lending these points of artificial light natural light all the while focusing on fundamental techniques in camera that are important but taking the student all the way through the in camera stuff and then post processing from start to finish. You need a cigarette after watching it. You know it's funny because these take nine months. I think we did photograph in the world for it was it was two months in the field shooting three months doing the post processing in the studio and then four months of editing to get this done so we get these things nine months but then we'll releasing them and twelve hours later. Somebody's going to be like oh. I watched the whole thing was amazing. I'm like how fifteen hours and yeah we decided that i wasn't willing to cut any corners on quality. If we created this educational product we wanted it to be just just the best as far as a visual standpoint quality educational spent four years as a college professor developing curriculum so i really thought this you understand that structure. I wanted it to be structured. I wanted each lesson to get progressively more difficult but rely on that fundamental knowledge that people gain from each one and it just became its own thing and on the side we also have the photograph in the world behind hind the scenes series on youtube which is free which is basically just us being hilarious and things so that has its own following and if you are a fan of photograph autograph in the world then you know patrick's moon boots are world famous now too so that that's that's become sort of the transition to where we're still teaching and then it's it's free to watch and engage with but it has the entertainment aspect of us. Actually you know i think what people watch the. I can't believe you guys actually got that tutorial done that. <hes> after watching that you guys actually did you choose the locations you went to or were you given a list and saying he's suggesting less a really good question my wife naomi and i decided that based on what we wanted to teach. We sort of had a rolodex locations. We wanted to go to whether that was themed for landscape cityscape architecture so the lesson and determined the locale. Yes the license attorneys locale and then we have this long running list of everything that i wanna teach but my my rule for this is to never add add complexity were complexities and do that's one and two never force a lesson where it's not needed so i won't say okay teach this and this and like no. I'd never do that in the scene gene so i'm going to teach this so a lot of it is we're gonna use this location. We think hong kong's gonna work really well and then the weather sucks and we're like well. We can't teach. Let's teach this because we have this on the list so even with that structure of that roadmap that we've created for locations we still need to be flexible just as if we were just trying to get these images for ourselves or it was an assignment that you had to come back with fixture no matter what yes exactly what separates amateur professional you gotta come back with something and that's that's that's where the challenge is often because the sense that always shining in any always pretty outside no. I'm from florida so i'm used to three hundred days of sunshine but you're right i mean and and that's where the the whole thing is crazy for photographing the world four. We spent two weeks in patagonia and i think we could shoot for two of those days because it was just you know you can't teach a lesson in about shooting mountains. When you can't see the mountains at all oh i my wife and i just came back for three weeks china and we got slammed with some of the worst weather and i was actually kind of semi depressed. When i came came back saying i just went and its like i blew this thing and i was actually astonished at how many pictures i got in the rain and in the fog and everything else it's like if you know what you doing and you know that you want to get something you find it even even mean standing there waiting. Ultimately it happens and you just got to be ready and grab it and that's kind of magic. I think photography photography. I think so too and it's funny because when you when you talk about that a shooting in the rain or thunderstorms different things like that you obviously have the discomfort level but usually when you have the most turbulent weather you can and get the most unique results yeah. You're just a little bit more miserable when you're capturing it. I mean as someone who taught and teaches but also a photographer producing. Do you find that one. You can as a teacher. You're also learning. I mean sometimes. I know in small situations where i have taught. It's a two way street. You say something and you realize well. I didn't even know i knew that you know or can impart that to somebody. So there's that element lemon of improving your craft while you're teaching but then there's also the fact that you're actually not shooting when you are theoretically trying to teach and how do you balance it is really tough spending too much time and teaching can definitely take you away from a lake something like a personal project or an assignment. That's really challenging you and if you challenge yourself as a as an instructor as a teacher to always always teach something different or to keep learning yourself and provide something new then that definitely helps it but i think going back to the point that you said i of that it helps us improve prove as photographers and artists. That's something that i've noticed too because a lot of the time especially do things for years right. We might shoot the same way we use photoshop. We do things but we've never. I had to explain it or break it down in a simple way for it's oh yeah i always use f eight in this situation and i'll say that and then leeann patrick. Why do you shoot f eight because would okay. Why don't you never use uptodate. Okay explain why you wouldn't you know there are a lot of things breaking that down then getting into photoshop rather than just putting all this together now i'm trying to structure it where i can start very simple and then get very advanced without losing anybody along the way where i'm just kind of spending maybe twenty minutes finishing this file but now i have to spend three or four our breaking it down into a lesson structure and that makes me better because sometimes i'll audit my own technique and i'll be like you know what there's a little better way in here. You know there's something i overlooked so yeah. I think they can improve us. And what does the next locale. What's next in the project is going to be just getting the workout. They're letting the people know about it or destination always have more destinations and more projects coming up but doing photograph in the world over the last few years and having the shadow series series that we have just behind the scenes and seeing the reaction for that i wanted to create something new so i took time off this year and i scheduled all last year and for the last few years i've been sort of conceptualizing how i would create a show that encompasses everything i love about photography has a light educational element but really just shows the world in a beautiful way and highlights the people that i admire the most in every photographic genre so i worked for the last year and a half sort of producing the show on the back end until i was able to get the rate sponsors and the people involved and we just finished seven countries in two months of filming coming and we're about to release thirteen episodes of this new series called moments in time and the trailer is up on my youtube channel and all my social media so youtube dot com slash ally low cardi aurelia low cardi dot com. This has been the last six months rating producing hosting traveling logistics and working with the crew. Oh yes if i'm teaching something but i'm i'm walking through through a street market in kuala lumpur with a friend of mine yeoman ebrahim who's an amazing photographer there and he's teaching us how to approach people in this market <hes> as has a street photographer and what he's looking with mindy tan in singapore and we go to an indian temple and she asking her. You know what's your style. You do let people know you have the camera or do you want it to a hidden and she starts walking up and doing portraiture and teaching us how she engages people and we're in all these dynamic places in seven different countries learning from all these people seascape gate photographers landscape photographers portrait photographer studio photographers and there's these are all people that i'm lucky to count as friends who wanted to be part of this but they're also people that i wanted to highlight and i i think with the show to i've i've been inspired by a lot of travel shows. I was incredibly inspired by anthony bourdain and the way that i think about this too is i'm not a food guy. Love food obviously early but i loved his show because it was about life it was about connections and so the idea is that we're all photographers today whether or not we identify as a photographer or not we all have have the capability to take beautiful photos and this is kind of a show that that gives a little bit throwback to bourdain as if he was a talker so the shows about photography but it's also also about life connection communication community all over the world so that's interesting yeah the show. I'm the host but the show is not. It's not all about me. You're the sheriff. I'm the i think the cameras one hundred mega pixels waist three times but yeah i feel like a chevrolet carrying all that stuff and the video production yeah obviously that adds six more for telecom cases that we're taking over the places for big is the team that you have. We're actually just for us. That's my wife. I producing not including the sponsors and everything thing and then i have a director and shooter and then a second shooter while source small agile team the thankfully can move around and it's nice because we are a small team gene. We're using a tall fujifilm's shampoo film one hundred percent captured fuji film shoulder rigs and gambles but these days we're walking around with gambles and shoulder rigs and other people are walking around with kimble's. It's it's just the world today. It's so much easier to be disguised as a production because everybody's shooting something so it's really nice nobody staring at the camera and the markets. It feels very organic walking through the streets. That's a really good point. Sponsor for the entire series is fuji. Yeah we are working with fuji film shooting everything on fuji the film than the main sponsors actually flicker what what you're going to see over the next few weeks and then with the releases were building a big community on flicker so so that people can engage with this show and actually make recommendations for people that we interviewed places. We go things that we do if they thought <hes> you know because a lot of parts of the show is my director. You're making me look as ridiculous as possible and as many as possible so i'm sure there's gonna be a long list nine. Courage a long list of ways that i can look even more ridiculous. That'd be tremendously helpful though <hes> uh thank you so much for joining us under you gotta be wide up a oncoming speech here. Where could people see you a work. They want to catch up that what you're doing. All social media is easy but my website is the hub for that so it's ally low cardi e. l. i. a. l. o. c. A. r. d. i. dot com and and then to my youtube describe youtube where the weekly releases are going to start on june sixteenth for photograph in the world. All those links can also be found on my website takes you right to the f. stopper store and if you just search me on google you're gonna find a bunch of free videos and i mean how embedded we all are in search engines these lilo cardi. Thank you so much for join a pleasure. Thank you all right thanks. We hope you're enjoying this edition of the h. Photography goofy podcast send us a tweet at b. h. Photo video pash tag h photo podcast. We are back at optic two thousand nineteen and we have spoken with a number of photographers and alan winslow is a photographer who's working on some very interesting projects one in particular about endangered animals. You're actually speaking here. You just had some experiences with the new fuji x. I believe it's called the affects one hundred that is the one hundred and that's the one hundred megapixel medium format camera yeah and you went out to yosemite with it yeah and did alternative landscapes. Yeah we're doing some experimenting with with the camera and trying to make some compositions that were a little untraditional in terms of landscapes that i usually coming out of yosemite and just you know having a good time playing with this camera shot the last model the fifty and that's a pretty amazing camera in many many ways and now we've doubled the resolving power out of that which cameras how you've been working with prior to this what was what did you consider a high megapixel missile camera. What were you using yeah. I was using the i was using the fifty before and i was also using the x t three so awash fuji shooter in the past i shot with cannons also always had my hands on as many types of cameras possible because i teach a lot of workshops too so oh i got to keep up with all the different models and all the different manufacturers but recently i've been just shooting with food since you were shooting with the fifty megapixel so the jeff the s was it that you had okay is your big difference of real noticeable difference between the new the fifty and one hundred job. I mean i mean the the the files processes is a little different. The image stabilization inside the camera body is just unbelievable so i'm just going out into the in yosemite. I didn't even bring a tripod or anything i just carrying this camera around hand holding it and just making beautiful files just holding a large format camera the files when they opened up two hundred man just just announced i mean not even for america but for the world just a week or two ago right i mean and when they're shooting. When did they give you the camera the camera a couple of weeks ago so a couple of weeks a couple of weeks before launch disguises a holger signing on it and in disguise it as something else black tape over the we get advanced cameras a table over. You don't know what you shooting with. Wow that's pretty incredible we by yourself. They're shooting with someone else. I was shooting by myself but i was out there with some friends and usually when i'm off shooting. I'll i'll go off by myself. South to the wilderness necessarily know you as a landscape photographer though i mean i i've seen your work your portraiture work the geography of youth going back several years now how and some bird work and some ornithologists you've shot so important your work but was that new to you the landscape stuff or how the grab grab you to do that. Yeah i've always i've always dabbled in landscape work but i wouldn't. I wouldn't say necessarily my specialty. I'm mostly a porta shooter and do these long-form projects and the so just came just brainstorming ideas and we came to human says. I have a brand new campaign hundred megapixel. Would you collect you photograph. Some national parks send you don't think about it. Of course i do landscape photography. I'm an alternative landscape. I'm the alternative to landscape photography me like an example. Let's say you're looking at a legendary this. Uh out there and what would did you just gotta. Let yourself spoken to an alternative way as to how to how you're gonna. Are you going to frame that vista or did. You just look for things that were really never photographed before. You know what i was. How the whole process worked for me was that i i i. I always look at the master's work. Whenever i go anywhere and so looking a master's work i was looking at stuff. That's coming on it like even all all the way down to social media just looking looking at photos coming out of the park park is photographed all the time and so i was there and i was just i wanted to break down the park in terms of like what was what makes up the park like water and the rocks and and so instead of just going for the sweeping views i was getting really tight on the on on those individual elements focusing on justice piece of the waterfall or just just the rocks the bayrock iraq's by themselves and just like getting really really really close getting into details not the big picture yes exactly and trying to get close and the cool about the cameras is that a lot of lot of the things that i wanted to photograph are are too too far away and so with these files sizes sizes i can zoom in and garoppolo small portion of the thing and and bring my bring the photos back to my studio and just like look at them and be like this is this is students which is something i never really. I've never really done in the past but there's still a lot of your final images. You're actually crops of of within the other picture yeah. I've worked that way sometimes and and a lot of people bang over the head for that but there is something to be said about working that way as well because sometimes like you said you what you want. Their photograph is far away from. You and you can't physically get through those. You can't just walk up to some things step away to get further away and i find in that quite often. I'm more concerned about the end image how tight and graphic it is and i know some people go nuts when you say that you've cropped an image major. You're not a purist know where you are purest. You going to exactly where the picture is. You can take in too much now. It's that's really what it is so so you are dealing with a a lot of crossing endless. Cambric does give you a lot of wiggle room for that exactly yeah and and the it's all about making that final image right and i think give your honest about how you're making that final image. There's never point where i'm saying. I was right up on that rock climbing repelling and i took it i i even the presentation is showed actually showed the original file and then i showed with a red box around where i cropped in so just give a visualization and be hundred percent honest about about that image and there's no doing that and say i have a normal lens and i put a two hundred millimeter lens. You crapping does matter. It's really what it is to the camera to right yeah yeah. That was the question i mean. What are you doing. This partly to show off with the camera can do or was it. Maybe a bit of an art project kind of this idea of all right. You know this is what this is. What i want to show based landscape you know and i'm not going to repeat the master's work. I'm going to do it. I'm just trying to just trying to do something a little different different than what i've seen before in this i've always love experimenting and my work anyways and so there's this other project i was working on the national parks where i was photographing epic views that were a national parks where there's like the sign that says take your photo here photo op yes those and so i started taking photos from those famous viewpoints and stripping out the twelve most represented colors out of those files and then making a essentially banded colors as the final print and so it's always been i've always have fun experimenting and and in in my class today i was talking about how that it's fun to take those risks but also know that it's a lot of those projects are going to fail and you gotta ed keep pushing and keep trying and those who may not win the contests or may not give the job but it's fun to keep experimenting absolutely classic images you see a lot of the national parks and you know that whoever took the picture looking at forty other people standing around with him grabbing i'd say moment i'm in void any of those spots but you still just work with them and figure. I'm just going to do what i'm doing. Guardless mix sometimes i'd go off into the wilderness and sometimes i the go-to the popular spots i mean the popular spots are popular for because there's a reason for it yeah i mean they're epic so just trying to look at it at a different and why did you speaking of the camera. Did you have me again. I it probably was an early model or even if it wasn't we don't wanna get into like badmouthing cameron anything but were there battery power issues and battery issues cameras to big screen no issues i used one set of batteries batteries out there so no issues at all incredibly good camera handling the transition from the fifty to one hundred pretty similar yeah really really similar with you know the food menu system and all it'll therefore you. That's what i was curious about. How it handled compared to the fifty 'cause the fifties are kind of weird to me. Push the button and it's like why did it take so long to go creek chunk and i feared i missed a lotta pictures. I got them all always felt like there was a weird delay because if all this is going on in the camera yeah not an issue with it no no. I've never had an okay any issues with it. Yeah you take out there so let me oh. I brought the whole the whole line wine odd. Excuse me guys any leany mighty mo with those year lenses for the from jeff s or did they give you know they'll let me borrow us using like picking up testing just trying to just playing with the cameras like going through a mix of styles awesome yeah right right so let's talk a little bit about this project refuge that is still a working name working title but it's a great project and brings brings together from what i'm understanding your need or you want to experiment but also issues that are important to you. Wanna talk yeah so a lot of my personal. Snow projects are revolve around mixing science with with art and so i love greeting peer reviewed journals and and taking that data and turning it into some some are visual art and so this new project that i've been working on for a little bit over four years now is documenting threatened endangered species around the world so anytime i'm on a project i'll buffer my time to go and photograph these species and i wanted something a little more for a little more punch than just a still image and because there's a lot of amazing photographers that are doing endangered species work that are just incredible and so i wanted to kind of get away from just this still image and so what i did was i developed a with a developer a piece of software where import the image into this tech the soft firm and projects on the wall or whatever wherever i can project and and the image starts to fade based on the predicted extinction rate of the spaces and so fade over the duration of the show and i didn't want it to be completely morbid really sad so i want to talk about the conservation aspect of this of the animals in so i they added another element where we hacked infrared cameras and we can map out the space that we're showing and people can walk into these engagement agent zones per species and if someone's standing there looking at the photo and the image will regenerate eventually regenerate to one hundred percent of passage but if they step out will start fading again and is that is that feel as your viewer isn't happening fast enough that you can kind of understand your role within within the fading and regeneration yeah yeah so right now. I've only had shows that are a shorter period of time where it's happening. You could see visually happing really quickly and then longer shows is more of a call to action and it's a much slower process so the the shorter ones. It's a much quicker and have you seen people's reactions to the point. You know feeling a little guilty about moving out of the zone so i kind of like experimental work. You're just like is this going to work. How's it going to go and my my first showing was testing the technology to see if you can hold and and just see people's reactions to it and see if we can tweak it or what what are we have to do and it was really cool cool to see people people were talking to their friends or like texting their friends like i'm going to stand in the james zone till you get here and stuff like that and so the engagement it was really interesting in and then also people started to talk about their views on on this topic i never are these types of projects. Never tried to put my point of view. I take the science and make the work and i hope that it brings a wide swath of people with varying opinions and have conversation around around the topic yeah so far. It's all the photos it was to write and talk about that process a little bit because signing endangered animals in the wild is not easy no that's. There's been trips where i have come out with no photos. I'll take some landscapes suffer but yeah there's so i'll work with all contact researchers or scientists listen that that region that i'm going to and and then most of the time they'll give me amazing tips and they'll help me as much as they possibly awesome can feel like that's an overlooked resources especially. If you wanna do some wildlife or landscape work is go to the people that are in the field. All the time comes up a lot in here. We live in breathing doger's spoken about the relationship that they've developed with scientists over the years for these. They're really passionate. Yes yeah people and they want. They want to talk about this stuff too and they wanted to get enough being having producing visuals for them as is incredible for everybody so <hes> <hes> retail they'll give me they'll help me with the access and whatever and then i'll go out and a lot of times it's just like backpacking to a spot and hoping that something happens happens and just sitting there just trying to be patient and just doing the best jannine so you've kind of wearing different hats in these projects. I mean in one day. You're out there with the long lenses. You're the got you know waiting for their way moment and the next thing you're in the gallery working out the tech show i would rather sit in the field for a month and naga photo then code but it's all part of the whole process and so one question i had an involving with the engagement zones and maybe you said the longer projects that are there things that people can do that kind of maybe part of it ultimately where the it's not just standing there is engagement but doing something in the bigger picture of conservation to create the image to come back. You're saying what i add that element the thinking yeah yeah there's been we've coated some some capabilities of doing some other interactions that were haven't been released yet but <hes> yeah. There's always those options food near the fast. I can my my whole thought process and concept behind all of these types of projects it is saying i don't necessarily have a call to action on the shows. You know any of my interactive pieces. I'm i'm trying to bring thing as many people together to have a conversation and bet awareness yeah and and also i did this project years ago. Oh photographing interviewing people in small town america about their views on the environment and it was everything from people who believed in climate change who didn't i believe in climate change in altogether in one show and then that and then i invited whoever on come to have that conversation and so the goal of my show as these these projects are not necessarily to bring all tope or bring or bring matt kind of conversation is more of getting people together and saying this is this is this is a thing that's happening and we could. We know that the species is almost extinct. That's not dialogue going on. They wouldn't be a dialogue encourage people to think about it. They may not normally think about it. Yeah and i'm not and i don't feel it's my role to push my political or agenda or my thought process behind. Just i literally want as many people to come together and talk about their views and if something has changed happens and that's good if you know either way so yeah that's it's more of a dialogue so what other projects even talk about anything else going on. What do you have any kind of. I dunno short like fill the gap type of projects that keep you jesus weddings barmitzvah. I'm still doing the the the big the big long projects are fun but they they don't necessarily always pay the bills so i'm doing i still do my editorial and my commercial work that i've been doing for announcing twelve years yeah it goes by real fast and then i still teach my workshops teaching photography around the country different workshops so yeah just like the classic freelance. Tell awesome mentioning everybody else right exciting active so can you tell us a little bit about how people can blend you work so you can go to my website almonds dot com and then same on social media alan's up and your brooklyn based so right. You're yeah yeah that's cool. As much as i can be in brooklyn and get to travel a lot which is amazing so good to be back home for a little bit fantastic alright allah winslow dot com until instagram the same and i wanna throw one last thought in his it's we're kind china winding up our our show coverage and i think this year we've seen more photographers working on projects that are more worldly rather than just vanity the projects that make them feel good their personal work nothing wrong with that seem to be seeing more projects with people about taking pictures for bigger reasons reasons now. It's satisfying particular ego and that's kind of a neat thing to say yeah. It's it's. I think it's important. I think that's part of our our roles. Those two images that you're communicating yeah exactly so it's an it's an honor to have this job. I feel lucky every day that i did pick up a camera. Go go make photos of incredible things. Don't you ever forget that. I will call you out sir allan thank you so much. Okay that wraps up another fine episode. Be sure to tune in next week when we announced the winners over being h photography agassi podcast panasonic looming s. one sweepstakes and also subscribe on apple podcasts or your favorite podcast platform to hear all of our upcoming upcoming episodes including a soon to be released conversation with active photographer jeff bridges and we're gonna be talking about his latest book on panoramic photography. We had a blast doing it until then on behalf john jason and myself. Thank you so much for tuning in today yeah.
Eli Schwartz on SEO and how to get it right
"Today's podcast is brought to you by audible. You can get a free audio download and Thirty Day free trial at audible trial dot com slash. Lash Alan and Alan Spelled A. L. A. N. for those that don't know again audible trial dot com slash Alan for all of us. It's about predicting where the consumer is going and getting Catholic right one. One of the things we want to do is create odds that don't suck then bracing chains create great possibility. I'm L. AT heart. This is marketing today. Next interviews your recorded at the Internet summit in Raleigh North Carolina earlier this year is first interviews with not Li- Schwartz has an SEO expert and consultant with more than a decade of experience driving Seo and growth programmes for leading to be NBC companies. He's helped clients like Shutter Stock Blue Nile. Cora get around mixed panel desk building execute Global Seo Strategies in the past ally led the SEO team at survey monkey building organic search to one of the largest growth drivers at the company. I hope you enjoy this conversation with. Eli Schwartz Welcome to the show. Great to be here. I know got a little background background noise for those listening because we're at the Internet summit. You're speaking so but we're GONNA talk about. Seo when did you get into SEO. I sort of fell into it by accident. I I was working at a company called GREENSTREET which is in affiliate Marketing Lead Generation Company. They were helping connect affiliates. Who knew how to drive? Traffic with companies companies needed leads so for example in two thousand six during the mortgage crisis. There are a lot of people that wanted to buy. subprime leads and there are a lot of affiliates and you had a fish in the dirty pools of the sewers to find people that didn't deserve mortgages mortgages. Can they connected so I was working. I was working with his phillies. And they were getting fifty thousand dollar checks a month and they were driving arriving all their traffic with SEO. So I decided what they were doing with so much more interesting than when I was doing and I started reverse engineering their processes. I get on the phone with them. My the goal was to get them to drive more leads but instead I was like tell me. Where do you do keyword research like? How do you get back links? How'd you pick your domain name? And then I started doing it on the side Haydn. Pretty much built a career in that from their situation. So I know you're going to be talking about a provocative area of SEO here the Internet summit and I wondered if you could tell us for those the art care at the Internet summit why are the Basic Seo practices. Just not working against your practice have been the same from when I started doing the same as those affiliates told me to do pick some keyword research put them in your title tag. Put that content on your website build some links to it so that was the basics. Hasn't changed since Google started but everything everything about Google has changed so I live in Silicon Valley and the streets around my house are teeming with self driving cars made by Google. Google more than any other company has is is driven more miles. self-driving than anybody else so they've driven five billion miles in the last nine years. So they're using their technology to make decisions that literally save lives and prevent deaths. They can make a right on red. They want to make a right on red. They know when someone's running across the street they know when there's a ball on the street they drive over they know and there's a kid in the street they should it then all these things yet. We treat Google on the search side as if they're really dumb and we can trick them so that's where Seo has to change people talk about. Oh it's all about the user and user intense google actually is using AI so they're like a fake user we need to think about. Google has another user who can read content and can process thoughts and understand understand holiday. And that's what a not a lot of people incorporating and so that's the best practices. Does that mean that there is kind of a need to not just stuff your keywords words in your content but actually right good content that humans would like to read amazingly yes we actually have to write good content. That people could read here. There's this thing called eat. Google said you need to have in your content has to be expertise and authoritative and trustworthy. And then I've had clients asked me like did I put enough. Eat into my content antenna like are are you real. If you real then. You shouldn't ask that question like did I managed to pretend that I'm real either. You're real or you're not real and that's square when it comes like Seo Best Practices people focus too much on like. Did they check all the boxes. Have they managed to trick Google and really if you can manage to trick users then then you will definitely trick google. So if you're thinking stricking somebody tricked users and then your Dougal interesting. What should practitioners do? I know you're I think you're going to talk about a four four step process so I love to use data for making decisions around. Seo So my favorite tools. Google search console so my force processes really get rid of any idea best best practices being the way to work. Then we wanted data and the data uses for coming from Google search console. It shows you the key words. You already driving traffic from your keyword research. It shows you the or else driving traffic. Those rows WANNA focus on it shows you the keys. You're getting impressions on those Deke. Ridge want to focus on and get more traffic more higher rankings more people clicking it shows you the click rate from Google. If that's not good work on improving the click through rate by updating your titles then moving on from there taking that data data and using it to grow so turning those keywords into new content looking around your industry seen what kind of content people already writing. There's this advice you need a thousand words long form content in order to rank you don't need long form content of no one else has long form content. There's advice you need to have images images of no one else in the industry as images and then from there you're putting in the process of experimentation so just like with any other product you can you experimentation where you WanNa know. What should the price be? Let's raise the price. Let's let's lower the price which changed the call to action and the same thing should be done for. Seo It should never be this process where it's Seo d- and done like I they worked inside companies. There's always distinct from engineers like. I'm done this thing can you. Seo It there is no seo it's continuous process. If you've done an experiment Pinhas works bigger how to tweak that experiment to make it even better and continue to drive more traffic from and really as these is running experiments. You should have learnings from it that you should be able to translate translate into something else. Well I'm a big fan of SEO. I guess in the fact that it's an asset. Just keep giving and giving and giving if you do it right right yeah my favorite favorite stat around. Seo Is there's a number floating around the Internet about how their full percent of clicks from search go. Ats It's only four percents. So good was driving one hundred billion dollars year off a four percent of clicks. Now we can't multiply that four percent times twenty-five organic number because there's a certain amount of searches that are just searches for information and let's be conservative. Multiply ten trillion dollars. There's a trillion dollars in organic search value. So I think that's continued to grow Google's doing self driving cars 'cause they want us to use the Internet more not because they think we're suddenly going to start searching less so this protecting their turf. They're having cars putting these devices license in our houses so we can speak to them and do more searches. There's a certain amount of search that exists today for years now. I don't know that it's GonNa to exit but it's certainly going to be a a lot bigger than it is today awesome. Are there examples either from your prior work. I know you're formerly with survey monkey most recently but other I think you done other clients silence as well in the past and now any examples come to mind on people that are getting it right my favorite example of somebody that's getting ready to tripadvisor so they One with with a key to success or tripadvisor that could imitate as they actually got into twenty years ago. So if you WANNA do that usually get into early. Should find that space and get into Amazon. Did the same thing while every other e commerce company. They weren't even ECOMMERCE. They would just retail. We're trying to figure out. Should they do the Internet. Should they not do the Internet. We're only doing internet. We're we're GonNa do this thing and then you know when target got around it they're like Oem's number one walmart and still not really rounded Amazon's number one chip advisors like that they dominate on all. That travel search except supervisor does is they continue to experiment on trying to improve the clicks and trying to improve the products like one search. I like doing. My kids always liked to go to hotel that has named or poor so then get swimming at night. And they're pages trip advisors for every single city of hotels of indoor pools. So they're continuing to iterative on the kind of content they have and the kind of pages are creating and the title tags the Meta descriptions to get you to click through on that content and then from a client perspective. I recently worked with shutter stock. And they're the kind of product I really loved love to work on Brescia because they have. I think it's something like twenty million your else so you can't go in and write anything. For twenty million euros that all has to be programmatic and all and their contents all commoditised duplicated pictures of picture. It's the same on shutters talking on getty and every other smaller photo site. So the you're out the puzzle there and how to make shutter stock for the most part ranked higher than their competitors. Because there's no way to really guarantee a high-ranking for the most part like what are you going to put in place like those are fun challenges. Yeah that's a huge challenge. I never thought about the aspect of the programmatic. Seo Out of you tweak it to make it even better at that scale. Yes so everything I do with. Mike Line is programmatic SEO. I don't typically do keyword research and content marketing. It's really I'm working with companies where there is a scalable approach. They just need to figure. Got That skeletal approach and they need to make it so. Usually I'm doing product consulting where the company I'm working with. You may have a large corpus contents that they WANNA release publicly. Maybe coming from an APP but they don't know what they should release. What are the pages? They should create where two languages they should focus on. They may have multiple languages. Do they want to have multiple languages when they create their websites. Those are decisions to make. And if you make the wrong decision probably won't find out for a year. It's a bit. It's a gamble. It's a big win. How do you think? Seo Fits into the overall overall marketing. Mix so I think it's a channel so for you. Think about all the channels. This is the one that for. Many large companies is the one that they invest the least and so the one they invest the most system is obviously paid marketing and interestingly throughout the time that I've been doing seo and then through the time maybe doing SEO consulting paid marketing is getting more expensive because Google and facebook shareholders and they keep raising raising it. They need to pass more value onto their shareholders. There's also a facebook and Google had a privacy pivot because they've had privacy problems. They create their privacy pivot. It becomes illegal or just no longer able to target on things. You shouldn't have been able to target on to begin with to say you only want to target high income people to sell the mortgages breakages. And you're able to do that before on facebook. Now you're not able to so you actually have to target low income people to and they're also going to click on your ad and they're also going to cost you money so your prices. This is overall are going up same time. We have companies like Uber Fed by every impression on on facebook so that just makes it more expensive for everyone. That does not wanNA buy more impressions. So what I'm seeing is that it's more and more companies are looking to invest in this channel they way companies. Seo is they google that they found some best practices guide. And they're like okay. We need to have a title track. So we've done SEO but they didn't put someone in that actual seat. They've made anybody responsible for it. So now it's a marketing channel. They're starting to one had some responsible for their starting to one. Have someone and grow that channel so it really. It's a channel and because it's in many cases solo effort. It's been ignored channel. Right totally agree. People underestimate the value of its much much like content marketing. Frankly a lot of people underestimate that as well so interesting to see your thoughts last question for you. What do you think the future search will be? They they keep changing right. Yes so Koogle's ultimate goal is a which means that they want to be like humans so the same way a human will do a search and say well. That's that's not what I was looking for. And they'll refine their search the same way human will do a search and say well. I don't like the first five results alike result number six and they click into result number six six and they say well. That's not exactly what I was looking for. I want to go back and look for something else. I want to do another search so google can't really get there yet. Because they can't understand content they can read content tint they can put context together so the kind of words are on the page. They can feel what's about the images on the page. I love talking about this with people that have iphones and android Pixel may also they get to see really what Google is produced. There's an APP on android. Call Google Lens which you take a picture of something in. It'll tell you what it is so I think there'll be more and more divers searches so google can recognize images. They don't need all texts to tell you what images recognize image. I can take a picture of a product a product it is who makes it ultimately. Let me me by it right now. They won't let the by it and thereby buttons Google's going to have their buy buttons so I think that's the future of search. It'll be much much more intelligent but also more useful we're going we see more. No click results Google. But that's a good thing when you have a no quick results like what's the weather today three years ago. You want to know what the weather was you google. What's the weather Raleigh? And then you had to click into like CBS News and you had to click today only and then it would tell you after you wash the video. Now you Google just tells you so. I think we're going to see more and more of that because it's useful and then from from there you'll do more searches because that's ultimately what we want so future of search. They'll just be more waste search. I don't think we've always putting devices in our houses route for us to search not to. They're putting devices sir houses not because they just want to give us another way to play music they want us to do more searches so landscape. A search will change the way we're going to do search change and things will get from search will change. You may be able to say okay. Google what's What's the price of laundry detergent and Google? Say It's going to be at your door in two hours so ultimately I think that's where they wanna go. Well thank you for coming on the show. Today it's great to be here. Thanks for having me It's Allen again. Marketing today was created and produced by me. If you're new to marketing today please feel free to write us a review on itunes or. Oh your baby listening platform. Don't forget to subscribe. Tell your friends and colleagues about the show. I love to hear from listeners. And you can contact me at marketing today. PODCASTS DOT COM there. You'll also find complete show notes links to anything we talk about on any up. You can also search archives. I'm Alan Heart and this is marketing. Today's podcast is brought to you by audible. You you can get a free audio download and Thirty Day free trial at audible trial dot com slash. Alan and Alan is spelled A.. L. A. and for those that don't know again audible trial dot com slash Allen.
98 - The Rascal Behind The Curtain
"Welcome to another episode of the secular buddhism podcast. This is episode number ninety eight. I'm your host no rochetta and today. I'm talking about the rascal school behind the curtain. So what is the rascal behind the curtain. <hes> <hes> some people are curious by nature. Some people wanna peek behind the curtain and see what's going on back there and others don't and my my whole life. I've been a very curious person by nature and i always like knowing the source of where things come from. I find this sense of curiosity is what leads me to want to research <hes> or watch documentaries that you know that peek behind the curtains we we have a lot of those these days <hes>. If you're interested in learning about food you can watch forks over knives or or food inc. You know documentaries that kinda show what's going on behind the curtain hottest food get to our table. What all what what all does that process entail. Some people don't wanna know that some people people do had to deal with the same sense of curiosity years ago. When i was studying my my religious views you know i wanted to know who who who wrote the bible or where the bible come from. I had always been told what you've got to read the thing over and over and over but <hes> without any pressure of trying to understand and <hes> other aspects of will where did this come from who wrote it and i started studying. <hes> part earns work with new testament history city <hes> <hes> and that kind of started to change my worldview. I like to do this with with anything. <hes> you know. The buddha said this will who says that the buddha said this word. Where do these writings come from. I like to peek behind the curtain and that sense of curiosity is is natural for me and there's no area where you're safe from from what you might find behind the curtain right like we'll. Where does our oil and gasoline come from. What all does it take for us to consume the the oil that we use and you peek behind the curtain and you might you may not like what you're going to see. <hes> you can do this with plastics <hes> our clothing where it has our clothing come from. I remember watching a documentary about diamonds in the process for diamonds and i was like i don't think i'll ever by diamond again or <hes> seaworld right and dolphins and watching the cove and suddenly realizing oh. I don't know if that's a place that i want to go to her support anymore more and it can have this effect. I don't want to bring this up all in a negative sense sort psycho every time you peek behind the curtains life gets more doom and gloom <hes> but that does tend to happen. Sometimes we peek behind the curtain. We don't like what we see and i bring this up. Because the process of introspective perspective awareness the process of spiritual awakening is essentially <hes> the process of peeking behind the curtain but we're doing this <hes> in in an investigative way looking inward right what happens if i peek behind the curtain inside of me <hes> behind the curtain of the mind and this to me manifests in ways very similar to what i was talking about with external things like well. Where does this come from. How do we get this. What does it take for this thing to be what it is <hes>. I've done the the same journey going inward where i wanna know a. Why do i feel this way way about this this thing why does why am i. Sensitive about that <hes>. Why does this caused me to feel this way. Where does this strong aversion. Come from a cha- chasing after this specific thing why not that other thing <hes> and then the big question you know that i've toyed with for years and years and years is what am it really. After what do i really want and i think this gets at the heart of a lot of what we're trying to practice in terms of buddhism as a spiritual practice practice tykwer playing this game of catch me if you can were playing the game of cat-and-mouse right as the enlightened you that's trying trying to <hes> outfox outsmart the unenlightened. You and it's like i'm trying to figure myself out but the plot twists <hes> that we we come to discover is that i am the one that wants to be behind the curtain while at the same time i'm i'm the one behind the curtain that doesn't want to be seen and <hes> when one seems to have outdone the other the other gets the upper hand in the game goes on and on just like the game of cat-and-mouse right if you grew up watching tom and jerry cartoon of the cat and mouse <hes> or taking this into into more modern terms any any <hes> show entertainment that we watch the hausa a superhero and villain. It's the same game it's it's like the the game as you. If you're gonna have won the more entertaining and powerful the one is you've gotta have the the opposite you know the whole cartoon cartoon of the cat and mouse would be boring if the cat caught the mouse in episode one and that's the end of that we we enjoy watching in tom and jerry because sometimes one out does the other and the next time the other one is the one who out does the other and the game goes on and on that's what makes senator entertaining and with our superheroes and villains is the same right. We always want it to be all the good guy wins and that's it but it's not <hes> entertaining to us if that's just how it is we need. We need to think that there is a chance that the bad guy was gonna win and that's what makes it an entertaining <hes> and and to me that's what's fascinating is <hes> this this constant constant back and forth of who gets the upper hand the enlightened me or the unenlightened me and this realization that i am the cat but i'm also the mouse and i love the way that alan alan alan watts talks about this he he <hes> will i. He has quote where he says. There was a young man who said though it seems that i know that i know but what i i would like to see is the i that knows me when i know that i know that i know and that's a fun mental. It's a tongue twister almost but it's definitely a mental gymnastics twister as well we like what is he talking about. Who is the guy that knows me. When i know that i know that i know and he's a leading to these multiple layers what i like to think of as peeking behind the curtain and to me it's like imagine the the moment element of shock that you finally figure out how to peek behind the curtain of the mind and what you see is yourself peeking behind the curtain of the mind. You know that's that's how it is. That's that's it. That's what you would see. You'd see yourself peeking behind the curtain and that's the i the knows me when i know that i know that i know and i love love. <hes> the complexity of these <hes> ways of thinking about seeing alan watts again he calls us the the element of irreducible rest galaxy and he says to be human one must recognize and accept a certain element of irreducible rask -ality both in oneself and one's enemies it is therefore an enormous relief to realize that these abstract ambitions are total nonsense it goes on to say for when it is understood that trying to have good without evil is as absurd as trying to have white without block all that energy asia is released for things that can be done so to me. This is kind of that realization that i if i i'm putting all this effort to finally peek behind find the curtain and if what i see is the me speaking behind the curtain. It's essentially that that same release of energy you know this wanting a good without bad one teen <hes> things to be <hes> one way without being the other suddenly that energy can be used for or something else like what would i do. If i gave up that game so it kind of leaves me with this well. What what do we do with this predicament and i think in the context of this topic for the podcast episode. It's <hes> it's like wanting to be enlightened and to no longer be confused. It's like the whole point point of you can't have one without the other right and enlightenment is the opposite of confusion but you can't have one without the other so we think the if we think of it in terms of certainty it's like we want certainty and not uncertainty and what we want to be as this not to be that and we're always playing this game name and and i caught myself even today reading through <hes> facebook and i saw <hes> an article that was shared in the the facebook page for the secular buddhism podcast <hes>. There's a group that's about secular buddhism texan not specific to the podcast. It's just a general secular buddhism group and it can be the source of a lot of pleasant stuff to read but it can also be the source of a lot of <hes> contentious bickering about little the things like anything on facebook right doesn't matter what it is read to the comments and you'll be quite is going on in the world and so it is in this group so there there was this discussion about secular buddhism versus buddhism you know and the article was trying to make a very clear point <hes> showed the biases of the author as a buddhist against a secular form of buddhism and it was funny as i was reading it thinking will which one am i feeling naturally like i should defend secular buddhism which is something that i talk about often have a podcast. It's called secular buddhism or my defending buddhism in general which i also feel a sense of affinity towards i've you know under taken the <hes> the process of becoming a buddhist buddhist minister not a secular buddhist minister just a buddhist minister so it's like i feel i feel like i'm both and i had this thought where i thought man. I think the secular buddhist feels aversion towards <hes> the label of being a buddhist because of all that it might entail beliefs in this this or <hes> the <hes> what you would say as all the superstitious part of that. It's like the aversion to that is a total little misunderstanding of of the whole point and if you flip it backwards. It's the same i think <hes> someone who would consider themselves. Buddhist classical buddhist who feels a strong aversion towards being labeled a secular buddhist as also missing the point you know which is <hes> alluding into what mar dr mark epstein <hes> once said which i really like where he was asked what is the difference between a buddhist and non buddhist and the answer was the non buddhist thinks there's a difference and i love that because at the heart of what any of these messages are trying to get at any form of buddhism any school rule of buddhism is that there is no difference and i find that fascinating you know if you have to take the argument of which buddhism is correct. Tibetan buddhism is a zen buddhism theravada buddhism and they're all kind of like trying to be like well. We're the more accurate ones take well then. All of you have missed the point. There is no accurate one you know it goes back to the analogy that the buddha gave of the giant elephant in the in the blind men trying to describe it and the whole all point of that analogy is that no single person at a single vantage point in terms of space and time can see the whole picture it cannot be done so here here i am describing my interpretation of my experience with reality and it comes across in this secular buddhist lands but that's not to say that there's anything <hes> more accurate than the description. I'm giving the tail of the elephant versus the description that <hes> someone else's giving of the the trunk of the elephant from an entirely different vantage point. Maybe even a different worldview a theistic one or a non theistic one or within buddhism a classical one or a whatever you know <hes> and that i think is is important to understand <hes> so i kind of got sidetracked with the with the concept of of the rascal behind the curtain but what i want to get at is what we learn and what we practice in buddhism awesome isn't about <hes> insuring you know a better future or correcting uncomfortable past. It's it really boils. Oil's down to the discomfort and the uncertainty of the present moment and i want to bring this back to something that i regularly bring all of this back to which is the game of tetris think about the game of tetris for a moment and think about what is it that would make that game stressful for someone if someone were playing it and they you were stressed about it. The stress would come from not knowing what's coming next. That's where the stress comes from right and if you're watching someone play the game and they're just loving it what what would make that game fun. It would probably be something similar but it's it's thinking that they know what's about to come next or thinking. I've got this game under control. I've got it under wraps and that sense of hope you know the hope that this game is about to be a better because i'm going to get what i need next ext <hes> but both of those players are are in the exact same circumstances which if you could slow down time or if you could pause the game for a moment moment. You'd realize the game isn't about the fear or the hope of what shape comes next. It's about recognizing that right now. We're playing a game and we didn't choose the game. It's almost like the game shows us. You wake up in their yard playing the game. That's what we are. We wake up and here we are alive. Why didn't will myself into existence but i'm here and to me. That's what the the game represents. It's reality. It's how things are. I didn't choose to look the way that i look. I didn't choose the have the personality that i have you know. I can't help that the rascal in me. <hes> wants to peek and see what's behind the curtain curtain of all things <hes>. I'm just here. I'm participating in the entire process of being alive and what i'm finding <hes> more recent recent in my life is that i'm getting comfortable with the uncertainty of at all <hes> it's kind of funny to see the transition of i wanna see what's behind the curtain to you <hes> exploring. Why do i want to see what's behind the curtain because that's also a fascinating thought experiment so my invitation to you regarding this whole topic on this concept of of this specific podcast episode is is to try to get to know yourself a bit more in this arena you know why do i care to know what's behind the curtain <hes> <hes> do. I care to know what's behind the curtain. If the answer's yes why if the answer is no why and again the point <hes> for me is to have a more skillful relationship with myself as both the cat and the mouse. I want that to be more skilful relationship knowing that it's an ongoing one and one's one's gonna outfox the other than the other one gets the upper hand and and then it has the upper hand until the other one gets the upper hand and that's the game goes on and on and on and i tried to <hes> notice in in moments where i feel a certain sense of attachment to one thing like oh i'm of this or that or oh i. I don't want you to think i'm of that so i better look like this. Where does that come from. And why do i feel aversion for one over the other and notice how it changes. It's fun to do this. In terms of time to you know i had this thought experiment the other day where i was thinking if the me of five years ago now actually could be further if the me of ten years ago met the me of today how would that he what would that mean think of this me and that was just a fun thought process whereas like will that me would probably think a lot of strange things about this me and then i thought well wow i wonder what the me me of now would think of the me of ten years or what the mea ten years what think of the me now in the way that the me now thinks of the me of ten years ago and again you kind of play with this process in your mind and suddenly there's this realization again of the the complexity of of the interdependent nature of all things in the constant changing of all things and and what i find is is seems to give me a little bit less of that strong attachment to how i am now and what i think now and what i believe now or what i don't believe now take <hes>. There's no. They just how things are <hes>. There's no attachment to it. That's that's how it works for me so again like everything that i share in this what i what i'm trying into emphasizes. This is a an exploration of you get into no you. I'm not trying to present any of this in the sense of here's the goal you need to discover this or that. That's not at all what this is about. I'm trying to share. This is how it's worked for me and i'm finding that this comfort with the discomfort of uncertainty in life is actually actually a pretty pleasant. The more you get comfortable with it like i mentioned in the the podcast episode stepping into groundless nece. It's like <hes>. I found a a considerable amount of peace and contentment in my own life with the uncertainty <hes> just not knowing and thinking. I get to do this today. Well that's great because i don't know what i get to do tomorrow. You know someone was asking me today. Hey you seem to do a lot of flying 'cause if you follow me on social media you would know that that's pretty much <hes> what i do <hes> like what would happen. If you got injured in you couldn't do it and it's like nothing i just do. Whatever the next thing is that i can do like i am oddly enough. I'm not i don't feel attached in any way to this thing that i pursue so actively in my life which is flying and teaching people to fly and all that because they can because if i couldn't tomorrow i'd be like okay well. That's the end of that and i'd i'd be doing something else. Just like you know that's. That's how i was the day before i learned to fly. It was something else i was doing before the day i learned that something else and that's just how it's been so sharing all all these thoughts. That was the topic. I wanted to share today the rascal behind the curtain. You are the rascal in your the rascal hiding behind the curtain deal and <hes> plane blaine with this concept hopefully can have some some entertaining thoughts <hes> with yourself as the cat and the mouse <hes> as always. If you wanna learn more about these topics on these concepts you can always check out the books that i've published there on <hes> available on no rochetta dot com and as always you've enjoyed this podcast episode feel free to share it with others right or review. I'd love to hear your feedback or your thoughts. <hes> give it a rating tonight tunes <hes> <hes> and if you want to support the work i'm doing podcast. You can always do that visiting secular buddhism dot com and you can click the donate button there and that's all i have for for now. I look forward to recording another podcast episode soon. This is ninety eight. Were close almost to the milestone of hitting one one hundred episodes so thank you for listening until next time.
Thu. 08/27 - Call of Duty: Black Ops Cold War gets a PlayStation 5 trailer and Control AWE DLC impressions
"Welcome to the gaming ride home podcast for Thursday August twenty seven. It's the last week of the gaming ride home show is the second last episode and I apologize that news has caught you off guard I would recommend listening to the beginning of the Friday August twenty first episode for more details there I am Kyle Hilliard. Here's a whole bunch of video game stuff that have been recently. Call of duty black ops cold war gets a proper playstation five gameplay trailer. A live action resident evil show is coming netflixing. You can now plays all kinds of marvel characters like she hope and Wolverine and Fort Night, and I played the Alan wake control deal and I have some impressions for you. Call of DUTY BLACK OPS cold war gets a game play and reveal trailer. A, proper non teaser trailer released yesterday for call of duty black ops called or and it took exactly twenty seven seconds for a helicopter to crash in it. It opens saying the footage was captured on a playstation five before showing the year nine, hundred, Sixty, eight, and a voiceover commiserate about how pointless the war was. Then the trailer fast forwards to Nineteen eighty-one shows stock footage of president. Reagan. Talking about the danger of nuclear war then it cuts to impressive game play and focus is on an explosive remote control car weirdly. It also revealed that Ronald Reagan will feature in the story somehow they created a character model and everything. The trailer ended with the promise that multi-player would be properly revealed on September ninth from a visual perspective the game looks great. I. Don't know that it looks exceptionally better than last year's call of duty modern warfare but it is definitely an impressive looking game. It's one of those things as we move into the next generation that I don't know if the visual overhaul is really going to be that significant improvements for playstation five and xbox series acts will mostly be related to low times and frame rates, which is great but we are really starting to hit a point where the visual disparity between console generations is just getting smaller and smaller, and this trailer is very evident of that. A resident evil show, it's coming to net. Flix. NETFLIX's has another video game show to add to its weirdly growing video game TV show roster with the announcement that a resident evil show is in the works, the twitter account and on Netflix which shares all of Netflix's official announcements shared a picture of a script titled Resident Evil Episode One. Oh one welcome to new raccoon city. The accompanying tweet reads when the West kids moved to new raccoon city the secrets they uncover might just be the end of everything resident evil A. New Live action series based on Cap comes legendary survival horror franchise is coming to Netflix something about the phrasing of the whisker kids just makes it feel like it's going to be a kid show. I don't think it is, but it just feels like it's going to be like an animated spinoff or something following the whisker kids. Bradley Russell did some additional reporting on the show for games radar and wrote as per Netflix's the resident evil series will on two timelines and the. First Time Line fourteen year old sisters, jade and billy whisker are moved to raccoon city a manufactured corporate town forced on them right as adolescence is in full swing but the more time they spend there, the more they come to realize that the town is more than it seems and their father may be concealing dark secrets secrets that could destroy the world. The second time line has a serious time jump sixteen years into the future and with a whole lot more zombies on. The scene, there are less than fifteen million people on. Earth. Reads the synopsis of the Second Time Line and more than six billion monsters, people and animals infected with the virus. Jade thirty struggles to survive in this new world while the secrets from her past about her sister, her father and herself continue to haunt her I. Guess when you look at this and the witcher I guess you just can't have a video game show without competing timelines that as their requirement moving forward. That story is linked in the show notes. It's a weird but interesting premise I am curious if it is going to be. Consistent with the Games, the movies certainly were not in the Canon of Resin. Evil is just a little out of whack right now with the resin evil two and three remakes, which did change some elements of the story. I am guessing this will not be canonical what the Games but with the long-term jump into the future I suppose it could be. Fortnight's chapter to season four battle pass ads, all kinds of marvel stuff. This was teased previously, but as of today, the Marvel invasion into fortnight is in full effect and it has some surprising inclusions. You can now on lock and play as thor iron man doctor doom she hulk a groot and rocket Raccoon Combo character, and you can also get storm Wolverine and Mystique from the X. men and they're all working together to fight galactic. It also looks like the avengers ship will be flying above the world. All the characters appear to have specific abilities like Wolverine being able to use his claws and ironman shooting lasers out of his chest. It seems pretty substantial. It's impressive. How much marvel stuff has been added to the game especially considering that the latest citizen kicked off with Aquaman from DC front and center. I got the chance to play controls a W. E. DLC early thanks five Oh five games, which is something I have been looking forward to since it was teased shortly after the game's release Alan wake is still my favorite remedy game though I do really love control my ranking would probably be something like Alan Wake Max, Pain, control, Max Payne to Alan Wake American nightmare and then quantum break. There were teases that the events of Alan Wake and control in the same universe in the main game. But this DLC absolutely confirmed without question Alan. Wake. Is fully referenced and Jesse Fade in acknowledges him as that famous author that publicly disappeared a few years ago I will keep this spoiler free. But if you do want some spoilers if you don't plan on playing this, but you're curious about put stuff at the end of the episode, I will make sure it is easy to skip or avoid if you're looking forward to playing it but you know might be fun to learn about it even if you're just. Casually interested in remedy and control I like this DLC more than the foundation DLC and not just because I happen to like Alan Wake and the world of Alan Wake Foundation had a few moments of general confusion and it didn't do a lot to move controls story forward it was more control, which was great but it wasn't particularly novel or unique. A lot of that same criticism can be directed toward me. It's more control which is nothing to complain about and it doesn't really move controls story forward in a radical way, but it does play with light in a fun way, which is both thematically consistent with. and. It also changes the game play a little bit. There is a monster you're fighting over the course of the deal. See One that has direct ties to Alan wake that does not respond well to light. So you are often moving light sources around turning light sources on or you're using your telephonic abilities to pick up light sources and hold them over these dark blobs that will be familiar to anyone who played Alan wake I don't. Know why Jesse can't just pick up the light sources and carry them around with her hands but you know it's one of those things that you just can't over think or you will get frustrated with the whole experience, but it leads to some fun puzzles which I liked. It makes it more than just moving between rooms and tackling different combat encounters, which is mostly what foundation felt like. There is a joke I liked in particular where a character who works in the areas you are exploring makes some suggestions about how to generate light sources against the darkness and actually runs down a series of things you did and Alan wake including perhaps most memorably wrapping yourself in Christmas lights which Jesse understandably dismisses as just being absurd. The final boss encounter is a bit of a slog. It's something remedy always seems to struggle. With their amazing at setting up combat scenarios with groups of enemies and making sure it's just challenging enough to not get overwhelmed. But when it comes to single enemies with large health pools, it just doesn't work as well. I'd like to the end boss fight mechanically in regards to what you have to do to defeat them. But I died more often than I wanted to control only has these two big deal see packs but. Them I definitely prefer a w. e., the myriad Alan wake references definitely made me happy and there are more than a few things that are very overtly related to Alan wake that rides well above the term reference but I also just enjoyed its layout and the focus on literally lighting up your enemies. I also really liked how it ended which I will save for the end of the episode in case you want to avoid spoilers. Here's what released today controls. A W. E. DLC is out today, but I already talked about that too much final fantasy crystal chronicles remastered edition is out today it's a remastered of the formerly Gamecube exclusive game final fantasy crystal chronicles which was unique for being a CO OP final fantasy game. I am curious to see if the game finds a new audience. Thanks to the ease of multi-player these days back when I released was kind of a tough sell to get everyone together to play but now it will be easier. The last Campfire is out today on xbox one, playstation four, PC, an switch, my favorite. It's the new game from the creators of no man sky. It's an interesting studio Hello Games it made a name for itself with the Joe Danger Games which were a little like the trials games but a little goofy are and more forgiving. But no man's sky kind of sent them into the stratosphere and they have been doing an amazing job updating that game and supporting its community. The last Campfire looks nothing like no man's sky or Joe. Danger. And seems to be more of an environmental puzzle game. It looks cool moon. REMIX RPG adventure is out today on switch. This is a game I was completely unfamiliar with, but it sounds kind of crazy. It was an RPG that. Released in Japan in nineteen ninety seven, that was kind of sold as an anti RPG. You can go around and kill innocent monsters to gain experience, but you can also try and discover their love and unite everyone. It's a little vague. It seems almost like a spiritual predecessor under tail in a weird way it's released on switch today marks its first official release in the US in English surgeon simulator two is out today, which is a game about being a surgeon sort of its hyper violent and goofy. It's one of those games that is silly because it doesn't control particularly well, which makes everything kind of chaotic and weird. It's not my favorite genre, but it is pretty consistently fun to watch other people play it tell me why chapter one is also out today on PC and xbox one it's the new game from don't not entertainment. The developer behind life is strange and remember me but no one ever really talks about remember me. Really kind of picked up the mantle dropped by telltale games releasing these emotional episodic stories with lots of choice. Tell me why which is impossible to sail loud without thinking of the backstreet boys. Song is about twins returning to their hometown in Alaska to deal with events from their childhood. One of the twins tyler is a transgender male which seems to be important to the plot. I never finished life strange but I liked what I played I just generally like what don't not is doing they're doing something different from the rest of the industry and they seem to be successful at it. So I'm curious to see what the reception to this one is like. That's it for gaming, news today I spent of my time playing control the last heir to wanting to finish up that deal as soon as I could. But I also played a little more creeks. Last night I am now determined to finish that game come this far. This is, of course. Sorry keep reminding you the final week of gaming ride home. In fact, this is the ultimate episode, but I'm still accepting corrections general feedback. I cannot thank you guys enough for all the messages I've said this last couple of days I'm to keep saying it. My plan is tomorrow to grab a handful those and read a bunch of them. It's GonNa be very self serving, but I WANNA do it I. WanNa share everyone's thoughts they've been so sweet. You could send those thoughts as DM's tweets to at Kyle Hilliard gaming ride home or you can send an email kyle ride home dot info and the show is still Accepting reviews on the platforms where reviews are accepted the show will still be online even if it won't be updating with new episodes after tomorrow. So your feedback, conservative Nice message, board for when the show was live, which I think it'd be cool. You can find me on twitch. My Name Is Kyle impersonator on there I started playing Batman city this morning while probably keep going with that at least through tomorrow maybe I'll start a game proper that I intend to finish streaming soon. You can also find me on the men Mac show for more long form video game discussions. I will talk more about video games tomorrow for the final episode of Gaming, ride home. Okay I assume everyone that wanted to leave as gone at this point. Welcome to the spoiler section of the control a W.. E. DLC. Are some spoiler. Everything's worth mentioning Alan Wake is fully in the DLC. You never walk into him physically in the oldest house, but there are scenes with him talking with Thomas Zane who appears to have taken on the form of his d'appel Ganger from American Nightmare Alan wake definitely spent time in the oldest house. There are recordings where Federal Bureau of Control Employees Get in trouble trying to visit Alan wake while he is there. To get them to sign copies of their books. Also, the end boss fight the creature infected by darkness that you're fighting through. The course of the DNC is Doctor Emil Hartmann the psychiatrist at Color Lake Lodge that you didn't particularly get along with during the course of Alan wake the big spoiler though the thing that you really probably don't want to know if you plan on playing the deal see is at the very end. When you defeat Hartman. It is basically confirmed that remedy is working on Alan wake to it's not so explicit. There's still a lot of wiggle room there, but there is a discussion where a Federal Bureau of Control Employee Tells Jesse that there is something happening in bright falls, which is where Alan wake took place whatever it is they say it's years away but something is definitely happening there. I don't know how else you interpret that other than Alan, wake to being development and add to the fact that remedies struck up an amazing deal with epic and basically they can do whatever they want and Sam. Lake has been vocal for years about wanting to revisit. Alan wake it definitely seems to be happening. and. It will release at some point which is exciting. Okay I will talk to you tomorrow for one final episode of Gaming Ride home.
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"Hello to our wonderful listeners of Homo sapiens. This is Chris and Allen here and we are going to be doing a whole new section in season for Homo sapiens which his agony uncles. Alan and I will be answering your life problems. Your relationship problems. Anything you want to hear from us to highly underqualified individuals about the highs and lows of life and how to tackle them please write to us on. Hello Homo Sapiens. Podcast DOT com and we will read them out on the show but importantly it will be completely confidential. You can either tell us an alias. You'd like us to use a will make one up. We will never ever reveal your identity because these will be important and very private matters which we're hoping we can help with but of course we will not be replacing the services of a professional individual. I've been told to say that bit. Anyway we are very much looking forward to coming to. Your is very soon my dear friends and please send us your agony uncle questions to Hello Homo sapiens. Podcast DOT COM loads of love for me. Chris I'm from Ellen.
446 - Reversal of Alan (8/17/20)
"The. He defied public opinion but I might sonnet was the most beautiful divorcee in the world One of the wealthiest Mary me for my money than you demand to work. Nor the prince perversion flaunted the privileges of his wife's money I'm involved with someone who falls beyond the parameters of Agreement. That must be better for you than what you've had to put up. Until his own family accused him of trying to kill her. Now a world renowned Harvard lawyer. I should tell you that I have the greatest respect for the intelligence and integrity of the Jewish people. Not a hired gun. Got Feel this moral constitutional issue at stake. But absolute innocent and a team of law students. We have to completely obliterate every single aspect of the state's case of the only ones who believe in him claus scapegoat. He's obviously guilty of something pretty despicable insolent because almost everyone else believes my lady's not diabetic but anyone with so much to gain you do have one thing in your favorite. Everybody hates you. That's a stock. Must have something to hide in Europe. Gentleman is given the opportunity to end things properly. Very strange, man. Lap No idea. Glenn. Close. Jeremy Irons I'm not afraid of. The chips fall where they may Ron Silver Swat an innocent man would say. I. Now. Reversal of fortune, the mysterious case of Klaus von Bulow and the story that shocked the nation. Hello. Everybody Chabot back again coming out this week it's. Me Met and Felix talking to you right now. And you know for this week's episode, we're going to take a break from the drudgery of politics, the election, Calvin la mention of generally covering all those things in the near future but we decided to take a breather for this week and talk about a movie that we all watched together and this is an interesting Chop Oh, film series because. I don't know it would be a sort of like in my opinion up there with is wide shut in a movie that's very interesting and Let's just say throbbing. III Mogi to watch certainly in light of recent events and everything we know now but it's also movie that I regard is genuinely good and Directed By and starring People I think turned quite a quite good and interesting Phil. However, the film in question is. Known is called reversal of fortune, but it would be better known as the Alan Dershowitz. Story I. I really. So this was my idea I've been on a recent kick of self improvement and education. I'm currently reading two books but to pad the knowledge, I'm just reading the random wikipedia is for movies I haven't seen one of those wicked pedis I stumbled upon was reversal. knowing about the club you locates I was like hey. This is a friend of the show. Good old Alan. Why don't we do this I. Actually you know watching this movie, you can't help feel a little four. Lord. They don't make movies like this movies with the mid to low budget that are. Pretty exciting dialogue driven and the hero is hideous. Jewish man. So this is reversal of fortune. All the hideous got plastic surgery and. Reversal of Fortune made in Nineteen Ninety starring. Ron Silver as Alan Dershowitz Jeremy Irons as clouds von Bulow who's go on. He would go on to win the best actor Oscar for his portrayal of class von Bulow and Glenn close as the dearly departed sunny von Bulow or rather she is in a persistent vegetative state throughout the entire film except in flashbacks but she does provide the narration for the whole movie, and of course, this is based on Alan Dershowitz, his book of the same name reversal of fortune. This was produced by Allen Dirt Swishes Son Ilan Dershowitz and written by Nicholas Kazan, son of Ilia Kazan. So there's a lot of a lot of interesting creators threads that have come together in this movie none more interesting to me than the director Barbados Schroeder who is You know I've always loved his film see he's directed one of my other favorite films of all time Barfly, the Mickey Rourke Charles Bukowski film which I would highly recommend, but he's also directed. A number of sort of like. Kind of like ninety s sort of like. Thrillers like single white female and then more recently, he did that movie with Sandra Bullock and Ryan gosling called murder by numbers and he's sort of like a a directed straddle sort of like work for hire and more like artistic stuff like I. Think he didn't win the palm the Oricon for for Barfly but also crucially for this movie and My. Understanding of it and the case I'm GonNa make for it. He's also the director of to absolutely fabulous documentaries that I would highly recommend watching the the first and most important of them is called General mean data like a self portrait or an autobiography or something, and this is a movie he made. That is a documentary about Idi Amin when he was. In charge of Uganda and essentially, he sold the movie to mean as kind of like heroic self portrait and was given access to his cabinet meetings day to day life and all of these sort of like contrived events and sort of. I guess I don't know whistle-stop tours of the country where people would cheer him in applaud him and he would. There's a senior. He goes along the river boat. He's there on a boat going down the river and he's looking at crocodiles and he's like see even the crocodiles know me they all like me and it is a insane film. It is bizarre because it is like this completely unfiltered look at a you know a fucking madman just a quick. About The GD mean movie he released two versions of it. One was released in Uganda, and then there was a director's cut was released everywhere else in the world. Mean asked Moammar Kadhafi to send his personal in Britain to watch the film and write a full transcript of its contents as soon as he found out what the director's cut included, which has made it pretty clear that this was the. Presented essentially as the diary of a madman. Rounded up two hundred French citizens in Uganda, and can find them into a hotel which he surrounded by the Ugandan army giving each of them, Barbacia odors, home telephone number to call him and explain that their release was conditional on Schrodinger Schrodinger. Re Cutting in rereleasing the movie to means. Wishes which eventually then did do and then when after I mean fell from power, he restored the original cut but the point is like you he's he's playing with them. The Ego of this, like this powerful lunatic and you know Evil Madman to. Flatter his ego to be just like essentially put a camera in front of like you know tell us tell us how great you are, and you give someone like the complete full rein to present themselves as they think, is our portrait portrait. What you get is often the most revealing and. Chilling aspects about their personality, the second of which is another very good documentary called terror's advocate, which is a movie that came out in two thousand and four. That is a very long feature about the life and career A. Shock Jess, who is a a French attorney. WHO Represented in the seventies like Carlos, the Jackal, the biter biter, Meinhof terrorists, many of the Algerian bombers and terrorists, and then eventually, and most famously the Nazi war criminal Klaus Barbie. When he was extradited back to France to face trial for his warcrimes committed during the occupation of Leon but I mean again like it's a very slippery figure he's he's like you know there's there's a lot going on and he again he gives his subject free rein to present a a portrait of themselves that he that they think is flattering and there's many like there's just so many different sub and in all of his films are. Always, an undercurrent of like coldness and perversity to everything. So keeping that in mind, how do we view this film reversal of? Fortune, which is based on Alan, which his book of which Alan Dershowitz is the main character and essentially hero of the movie. But why I like reversal of fortune so much is that there is that surface level reading I read into it. A second layer that cuts back like cuts against the surface interpretation of it were essentially wits is villain this movie and that like the heroic self portrayal that comes across in this movie is very strange and it gets stranger given what we know of Alan. Dershowitz now and his current public persona gentleman. What do you think of that? I could see that I. Think there are a few. Key moments in a few specially lines of dialogue that are very interesting. Knowing what we know now about Dershowitz I I don't know I fear. It may be confirmation bias however it's true. It's true. Yeah I mean I mean it's hard even though you could make a movie about Alan Dershowitz and really try to make it a worshipful picture of judicial heroism and still have people watch it and go actually this is about this how this guy is a complete scumbag and pervert because of just how grotesque his whole thing is it's unavoidable his vibe he's got a bad vibe it's unavoidable. There is a the mark of the pervert on Professor Dershowitz. Yeah, he's just got a stench of perv wafting off of him at all times. So for those who don't know like I mean. This this case is really what made Alan Dershowitz this was like with I think probably more than anything brought him into the national consciousness. This was before the Oj case and certainly before. Any of the things that we've discussed on this show, but essentially the clouds von Bulow case involved this guy who was convicted of killing his wife. He was this very like just sort of like old. European. Like just sort of like Weirdo and as dad was a Danish Nazi collaborator during World War Two and it was this case in like the You Know. He was took place during one, thousand, nine, hundred eighty and it was thing that became kind of a a media sensation was like a a big trial this Guy who everyone thought like you just like you look at him, you hear him talk and you're guilty like this guy absolutely killed his wife and when it revolved around is like you know. To separate incidences separated by about a year, I won in nineteen, seventy nine, and then the second, the fatal one, thousand, nine, hundred, eighty of. His wife Sunny slipping into a coma essentially while he was in bed next to her and not telling anyone about it. Until the first time she was revived and then the second time definitely not. Then, like you know. Her children from her first marriage to like the count von Habsburg von. Imagine eight fucking names together of European royalty like these people come from started their own have a private investigator in their own attorney look into the case because they basically always suspected that he he was the kind of guy that would definitely kill their mom for her money. And then he was convicted of this, and of course, the movie is about how Klaus von Bulow retains the services of Alan Dershowitz to for his appeal and that appeal of course ends up working very famously and Klaus von Bulow got a second trial in which he was acquitted and this was like the first big case of a career define in large part by for Alan, Dershowitz of helping very wealthy men murder their wives may I mean maybe he did murder her what maybe didn't the movie leaves it very ambiguous and so so does the book itself but based on the merits of the case he got this guy out of. Jail Stretch. So you want to just start like just sort of go through the movie. As a place out. Yeah. All right. So like I said, it begins to this like you know. Von Bulow family like they're you know they're in, they're in Westport at Newport Rhode Island like it's just they live in like astonishing wealth and like I said at the beginning like it begins like after Klaus von Bulow played by Jeremy Irons has been convicted of murdering his wife. He then reaches out to Alan Dershowitz who is introduced in one of the funniest scenes. Maybe ever portrayed NFL the first we see of Alan Dershowitz again played by. Fellow Hollywood conservative run silver, which is another very interesting angle to this because like Ron, silver became like the go-to like after nine eleven like right wing Hollywood guy who is just like in nine Ele- I used to be a liberal but nine eleven changed everything and now we have to wage war on Islam, which does. Mirror. Dershowitz views to uncanny degree but Dershowitz is interviewed in his driveway in cut off jeans and converse high tops just hooping by himself. He's doing the dribble, but he's doing the style where like instead of dribbling between your legs do a crossover. He dribbles Tina's legs by lifting up one leg to pass the ball under it and just sort of like you know do fake pull out jump shots and stuff like that bouncing around in his driveway just that. I think I think it is the one that early kind of establishes the theory of you're making about the counter reading because the very first image we get of him is playing basketball by himself couldn't get a friend to post up against just playing horses one man trying to dribble between his legs. I I had a different reading that scene and the I at first I thought that like they're making fun of this character by saying he has no friends but I thought the other reading of it is who does he talk to rate after he's done making his and one mix tape against himself? Son That means his son was in the house. cicilline is later shown to also best balls much as Allen at least. And that means that there was a conscious choice by Alan to be like, no I'm not playing with my son I'm hoping. Which shows him to be the bad doors even love Solo outdoor summer even weirder even weirder with your college and being like, Hey dad, you wanNA play a quick game Tony won no are okay. What you doing the ball I'm playing. No you're doing. Man and also is that was early on in the film that like the the other case that she's working on Pro Bono. The case of these two, these two like black kids in Alabama, her on death row because they help break their father out of prison and in the Commission of their dad killed someone and then they were convicted of that same murder and they're facing the electric chair in Alabama and it's just was you know he's this crusading Harvard professor who's taking on their their appeal pro bono and is like that. That's what. He's really working in dedicated on in the titles in the movie they do let you know that those two people were still on death row at least as far as when the movie was released and Klaus Von Bulow of course was walking around the upper east side doing whatever the fuck it is that he costs buelow died like very recently like he died in ninety two again, we're losing too many people. And then he gets a call and like his sons like Oh this guy says, he's Klaus von Bulow and he's like no I don't want to say it's probably the media or whatever, and he gets on the phone. He's like Oh in is Klaus von Bulow and classes like, Hey, like I want you to come to New York and I want you to consider taking on my case. So durst travels to the upper east side. And you know walks into to Bulos like amazing. Fifth Avenue Apartment and one of the first things Jeremy Irons says to him is he says. You know I I. I just would like to let you know that I've always loved and respected the integrity of the Jewish people. That is what both of you say to me before. And you know like I obviously you know this case was already very highly publicized and like his name was synonymous with wife-killer like an obviously guilty guy who you like the conviction was based around like an insulin needle that was found in a bag he owned and the idea is injected his wife with insulin to cause this coma that she went into that. Basically, you know put her into a persistent vegetative state and you know so he started breaking it down to a and what what what Dir says von Bulow is like look. I'm not a hired gun like if I take on a case like I'm a professor like I'm not a lawyer like. Putting out my shingle here if I if I take on a case, it's because I need a strong moral reason I need to like you in some way and I think like I read this is like his strong moral reason is looks like, Oh, here's another guy killed his wife. I mean like I said I feel you brother joked about it before the show but Google Alan Dershowitz his first wife it is a very much its own reversal of fortune story about like maybe maybe not I don't know like I mean she did kill herself and then like he made it very impossible to find out anything about her or look into that and of course, his first marriage. Is Not mentioned even once in this movie or it is obliquely later in a way that is I think the most telling point in the movie but like the fact is that like the movie doesn't mention it, all Alan Dershowitz is tragic first marriage and he's just like, Oh, I, need a strong compelling reason to defend your take on your appeal Mr von Bulow, and then it's just like well. He's a guy. He's a was guy accused of killing his wife basically. Beginning beginning to add up in my mind another another interesting facet of the movie they were watching it when we were watching it is like it takes place in the eighties and like the motivation here is that on his own. Klaus von. Bulow is worth about a million dollars, but his wife Sunny and her family is worth fourteen, million dollars. So we're talking about someone who's worth fourteen million dollars and the fucking like the wealth and splendour that they live in was like kind of inconceivable to me for that amount of money like like the the mansion in Newport, the sailboats, the apartment on the upper east side, the other. House in fucking Westchester like I was just like, wow, this is what being a millionaire in the eighties was like and we were talking about this was sort of like a pre billionaire era in America of like the way of what wealth was and what wealth could get you mad pointed out. There were very few billionaires in the country at this time there was the hunts the bay the masses. Rockefeller descendants Henry Kravis, a curly ECON, other sorted corporators, but it wasn't no like people just didn't have that back. Then the flip side of that though as we saw, the movie was the activities that the von Bulow family did were awful. We have a way higher standard of living than. In Their twenty thousand square foot mansion. They would watch Robinson crusoe on a twelve inch. TV Cold Room. There was no point of being a millionaire really until about I'd say nine, hundred, ninety nine, and you know what? The lack of heating in there. fucking mansion becomes a crucial part of this of this murder stories well. How fucking cold that is in sunglasses bedroom an integral part of whether this was a suicide and accident or murder. We'll say that's not an easy thing. That's a cultural thing I one of my friends Minnesota. They're very wealthy wasps and their house was so cold that they would just. Keep Butter. On the kitchen counter. It's just as good as keeping the refrigerator and I was like what the you just leave butter out. He's like, yeah what is your house so hot that you can't leave butter up Your supposedly outfield. So you're not. buttering. Thing if you. The butter dish and you it's because you leave butter out because. It's In. The Fridge you can't fuck I don't want to read cold butter on A. Zip Yeah. That seems insane. I think you're wrong. Well. Through having our, we're having our own version of the culture clash between Jesse. Gentle. William von Bulow. Yeah you can't handle butter one way or the other what differences you Wretched stomach had a butter. Butter inclusive lunch. I'm GonNa Watch you drink a milkshake and see what happens. I think I. would have a good time that sort of thing would happen. And so they said the movie does sort of play up this kind of. I wouldn't say unlikely friendship between these two guys. But like you know, I think they are like somewhat boys by the end of the movie. But like, yeah, this culture clash between. The sort of the the wild haired liberal crusading a Jewish attorney played by Dershowitz and and Klaus von Bulow. WHO's like a fucking a fucking alien who comes from like just like a world that is just like so different than not just like jewish-american life. But like Americans in general like the world to fucking like wealth and gentility, he comes from and also in one of their first or second meetings, it also becomes clear. That while he was living in London. Klaus von Bulow was rumored to have murdered his own mother and aunt. Let's it. He's like, yes there were rumors that I killed my aunt. Only. By name in German means woman killer. Fi Yeah you've got me. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. On woman murderer of the year in one thousand nine, hundred, seventy three. Yeah if you really. WanNa. Fuck and know and also rumors that he's a NECROPHILIAC as well. I mean a cold fish this guy really strange and like again I I have to I have to stress how fucking uncanny Jeremy Irons is in this role, like he pushes the Jeremy Irons things like as far as it can fucking go if he's like his his icy sort of like perverted like there's just like undercurrent is like I said something very. Both refined but also completely perverse him. He has these little lines where he says to like Alan. Captains of our own souls then like he's like just just smoking and like the. Smoking. Cigarettes, which also becomes a big part of his motivation will explain that later in the movie but so like it because her Dershowitz. This dilemma like. Here's a juicy case. But like is there anything here? Should I stick my reputation on this and he's talking to his son And he says. He says you know. It reminds me of my Hitler dream. Were like okay. What What's the Hitler dream and he goes? Yeah. Hitler. He comes in my often he's office and he says, you know I need a lawyer and I have to think to myself to take the case or do I kill him, and then like he's just like, yeah, I would take the case and then I would kill them but like you know the This is what he's looking for a year. You know like this is the terms in which he's thinking of class one build, but also very telling about his own his own psyche. So then like so e e agreed to take the case and then he begins assembling his team of of law students about how they're gonna how they're going to go. After this appeal you know like like you know like the project is what we're going to do, and then there's a scene where we're one of them one of his law students played by Felicity Huffman. In the room just sort of like stands up in protests and she's like you know what I think. This is bullshit like this guy's guilty. He's like a rich guy like like, why are you helping this rich guy like he's been tried he's been convicted like why? Like you know we're supposed to be like crusading legal advocates for the underprivileged and and And you know not people like Klaus von Bulow who are like rich perverts who have murdered their wife and probably also their mother aunts in Christ, knows who else and esp if you add the whole family and let's just the whole Nazi collaborator angle like she's just like look this is gross and I don't want to be a part of it. And then, Ron Playing Dershowitz. Gives her you know he fucking. Shit. And he's just like you know maybe this isn't just as simple as your your personal bullshit moral conundrum like I got on this case because I'm pissed off I'm pissed off because the family hired brought in a private prosecutor in private investigators unacceptable unacceptable and if we let them get away with this then like the rich in the future, the rich are going to be completely exempt from the law and order, and they're just going to have their own prosecutors and they're going to decide what evidence they give over to their state. Again, here, very interesting very interesting in wretched like watching this film in Two Thousand Twenty thinking about Alan Dershowitz, and then of course, you know he completely windsor over and. He says, and then he also he also makes a big point about like like the system. Well, I'm a lawyer and like Wi fi four like the system is for the one innocent person out there whose wrongfully accused and then he goes into this whole thing of being like, okay. You know imagine you get divorced tomorrow and then like and then you're accused of molesting your son and happens all the time he happens all the. Everyone's looking at even the mailman will look at you everyone flees from you everyone thinks you're guilty. You're lawyer is the one person you have in your corner when you're falsely accused of molesting your son in a divorce proceeding, he just says it happens all the time very interesting. The first dozen many interesting scenes. Happens all the time. That was a big one. Private bring in a private lawyer, a private prosecutor also interesting when you know about the legal warfare between David Boies, how do I pronounce that name? Okay it's like John Boys, John. David. And Allen Concerning the Epstein case just imagine you're just you're just a kid from Brooklyn. You're just a kid from coney island you're a manager. You're just you're nobody and then out of nowhere everyone against you I'm the one guy who's going to help you and your appeal. Imagine you're just a simple man who lives in palm, beach going on and then. Like As they begin to look into the case becomes more and more clear that Sunny von Bulow played by Glenn close was also a true piece of work. who was you know just she would take something she would smoke three packs of cigarettes a day and pop something like thirty aspirin time or like. She just popping aspirin and pills of every kind all day long and she describes her daily routine, which is like a get up at nine like have a light breakfast go shopping, and then be back in bed by three of which will she'll stay in bed for the rest of the day eating chocolates and smoking cigarettes even though she was hypoglycemic. Like. All of these other things that were like point that like this woman could have dropped at any fucking woman regardless of what her husband did or didn't do. Very Unwell Person I. Okay. I had you're reading on Sunny von Bulow that she's a real piece of work before I saw the scene with TV and then when I saw their Shitty TV and the only other thing they can do for fun is like yeah, read a book on Land Surveying practices the hundreds it's like, why wouldn't you just try to kill yourself with candy and barbituates? She's right. Yeah no and like Oh yeah there's also she twenty four laxatives a day as well and and wouldn't let anyone in her bathroom which, of course, we're lady love to shit what let's what they found her body. She probably Pinson alot he probably left really thin elegant loafs. That's what they teach you and European paper like calligraphy. Little Cigarillos. So yeah like know but as it goes on, you know like Dershowitz gets more and more involved in the case in he keeps telling clouds over and over again don't tell me your story like I don't WanNa hear your side of the story. That's the worst thing a client can do for a defense attorney because the more you tell me like the more I'm constricted to defense that I can make on your behalf. So the tell me. The bare minimum I don't WanNa hear your side of the events because then I'm locked into into defense that I might not be confident about. But as it goes on, he begins to sort of convince himself that like I actually do think he's innocent and I do think he may be was framed or set up by his stepchildren and there're prosecutor and private investigator they were looking for a way to get rid of him and not vice versa. And then it becomes this thing about like. You know how can I stake my reputation on this man that I don't understand or that have questions about in some way and you his whole thing like he's saying like you know my clients are the people I care about with again. OJ Simpson. Jeffrey Epstein. These are these are his friends. You know like you said, I take a case when I get pissed off and that's I guess that's why he took. Jeffrey Epstein's case is because this is a guy care about and I'm pissed off that he's being railroaded by. Overzealous Prosecution. Yeah. The politically power lobby of thirteen year olds is coming for this man and then. Also, what's her name? Annabelle. She also is in this movie and she plays like one of his former students own attorney and they've had a prior romantic relationship and he brings her on board the team and she's like I want this to be strictly professional allen that part of the movie probably pissed me off than anything else if I. If I, fully believe on Beulah was guilty and they. Bought us out of it it would be less enervating then Alan Dershowitz dating Annabel's Yorio. Legislation. One. Of the hottest actresses ever and just like really highlights. You're talking to fricken Totti's. She sees a guy with like clown hair who's like I I didn't kill my wife. She's like I got. dammit. I still love you. Like that angered me deeply Yeah. there. There's a scene where they have an argument over over a legal issue or a question of strategy in the case, and he's a braiding her banging the drum he's like. I know this brady violation, but we can't argue it on a technicality la La, and then she just goes. Allen, you always have to have the last word. Don't you again though so it's like, Yup. That's Allen. He needs to have the last word. That's why he's still on TV every fucking night instead of just I don't know going away or shutting the fuck up. He's still on Hannity every night going like I've never not worn a bathing suit when I was little Saint James. There's literally just it's like a segment in Tucker show. Now it's like Jon Stewart the moment. All right last ten minutes to show you know what that means and then there's just a side swipe at Dershowitz Schwarz's already talking and he's like and there's another thing if somebody if somebody's wearing. Thinking nail paint it's not like they're hand is touching you Virginia Geoffrey. You will you pay nails? It's like Andy Rooney on sixty minutes. And now, Alan Dershowitz and it's like Allen's quarter is like. Grinding my gears for. Les Wexner. Looking to that guy. David that the day that. They picked Kamala as jobs writing mate, and like they're like, literally a hundred thousand posts about it like four against by Maga- people by Biden people by people and then just like the. The heat waves in the background of the Universe Ellen Dershowitz, who is in the middle of a forty tweet long thread where he's like I shell I, Challenge Les Wexner to prove that I've ever kissed anyone but my wife. And like thank you Allen. That was awesome. So A. Cool aspect of this movie as like a lot of unfolds in flashbacks as Klaus and other people tell their their their version of the events leading up to like I said. The. The one near death experiences sunny, and then the second fatal one both involving her just like fucking like her body like curled up in her bathroom after like. Twelve hours of being ignored by Klaus and being told, no, we need to get her a doctor and they're like why not he said Sonny detested doctors and then there is one of the because they both both these events happened owner around Christmas and he was just like sunny always love, Christmas, who is the most important part because she loved giving more than anything and she didn't usually drink. But on these occasions, she got fucking south off thirteen glasses of Eggnog Someone who is someone who normally doesn't drink and is hypoglycemic, and then she like you know they, they help her like stagger into the bedroom is just like I I can walk on my own touch me give me a scotch and water and fifteen aspirin the today. and. Then of course, cloud does it for her and her she's just like well, if he was in this state like, why did you get her another drink and he just goes thing you have to understand about sunny is that she always got what she wanted. And then like what you really, it's just like there's the tensions in their relationship between Klaus and sunny about clauses, basically open infidelities with the daughter of one of their friends. Who like a much younger soap opera? Who's WHO's been openly carrying on an affair with for a while? And then like he broke things off with her and then like prior to the the final fatal incident, she had a delivered returned to him all the love letters that he wrote her to their house but not addressed to him. So that sunny found them and them all and you know like even knowing about the affair is one thing but like you know reading about it is another but then like the real source of tension and and the bizarre one. Is that it's revealed that like Klaus kept pushing to get a job like that's all he wanted was to go back into the key he'd worked for Getty Jump Getty in London, and he wanted to get back into the oil business as a lawyer which should involve spending some time away from the house, and then she's just like she doesn't understand why she's like you don't need to work. This is just your ego. Your fragile masculinity can't handle it. You know, why do you need why do you need a job like you WanNa leave me or like all this very protective she's very. AFRAID OF HIM Seeking employment or like having a career or doing anything you know like as European nobility and the thing we could like read into this is that essentially All Klaus von Bulow wanted was a different room to smoke cigarettes in every day and not do anything because this is what he does in. The whole movie is just he's smoking cigarettes in different rooms he's walking he's bringing. He's bringing pills and fucking ice cream Sundaes the sunny like while she's in bed all day and smoking cigarettes. That's what He. Does and I think like yeah. This is what being a rich person was like until about nineteen ninety nine you just wanted another place to go to smoke cigarettes and look out a window and that's what having a job is if you're like from royalty or like old European ability that'd be funny if he'd been like I to manage a pop is Yeah I Yeah, really until ninety nine. That DVD's in base jumping and all that and rich people got into that snow Yeah. That was all you could do. You just smoke cigarettes in a room with other like former. Habsburg princes or whatever, and do legal busy work and talk on a rotary phone I had a lot of sympathy for the von Bulow character. Perhaps, he was a product of his own environment and that's why he got into wife killing. You can only smoke so many Benson and hedges so many rooms. And there's also these moments were like he he very much toys with and likes his celebrity. Even if it's a negative celebrity about being a fucking wife murderer like the first meeting, he has dershowitz he like he takes him to lunch at DELMONICO's and explains that you know I've always had a table here but I've never had this table like the right at the front like one of the best tables in the house and he's like ever since this pleasantness I always get sat here because now I'm a celebrity and he said in Europe it's all. About, class but in America, it's about celebrity and like his his his notoriety notorious nece is his celebrity. It's it's getting his ticket punched in America, in a way that even his wealth and title and class doesn't really mean shit in this country. But as soon as he started getting his name in the press as like the wife killer, he's getting seated at the best tables and he has this certain cachet and he has this perverse way of joking about it and playing with it like there's a scene where they all go out to this Chinese restaurant. Bulow is like meets with Dershowitz in his full team like his whole team of legal students and investigators and lawyers who are working on the case for the first time, and they all sit down to dinner and as an icebreaker. Klaus, goes. What do you get the wife? Who has everything? A shot of insulin. And they're all just like. Oh. Okay. All? Right. Just just a disability humour is this just some late humor to spice things up here Ever, do exciting announcement since killing my wife, I've gotten a lot of exciting opportunities. I'm now a writer for Beau Jack Horsemen to could hurt. Very humbled. I'm notice a lot of people have been retweeting my old tweets from twenty twelve where I say I can't wait to kill my wife these. This was the comedy of the day but I've learned in grown. Also I did a thing I killed a new wife. And also like so like, yeah, he has the mistress, the daughter of their friend, and then he breaks things up with her, and then by the time Dershowitz comes to his apartment he has he has a new paramore played by Christine Brodsky. WHO's like this ridiculous fucking stereotype of an upper east side wasps and she's just like I've met sunny after the trial and he's just it's been a whirlwind romance and I've dedicated myself to his legal defense and I'm the one who said I told him immediately higher the Ju-. Get the Jew from Harvard Klaus. But. Yeah like like so just goes on. The more the more Dershowitz, like he he like he more he stakes on this case. While he's doing the case, there are scenes of him like being on the phone with like the the death row inmates that were he was originally like dedicating his life do that again. I. Don't know whether moves implying like based on what it seems like. He seems like he's almost completely forgotten about them except when they call him the like please I don't WanNa die and he's like listen you're not GonNa die we'll take supreme court by the way. What do we have on the insulin? Do you run the tests on those needles? Dershowitz is shown to just be working by himself on those two kids case whereas when it comes to von Bulow, he has twenty people living in his house working around the clock on it. The only thing he does for the kids is like there's on the phone call him and he's like, don't cry. He says. So he says when he's on the phone at one point, he says like he's like he's Like this'll be a lot easier for me if you don't cry. It's like, yeah usually a week away from the electric chair or something but he's like, of course, you know Von bulows legal fees are, of course, all all paying for his his very noble pro bono work. So like healing realizes like he's taking more and more of his professional reputation and life on for some reason believing Klaus von Bulow even though he knows even the famous line in the movie he's like it's hard to trust someone you don't understand. You're a very strange man Mr von Bulow, and as he's getting into his Rolls Royce he just sort of like peers out from her the window and goes you have no idea. It's very hot to trust someone you don't understand. Very. Strange man. You'll have no idea. And it just like I said like the movie is is is always playing with this this this sense of moral ambiguity in on both the characters and the audience is that and it doesn't really. Provide for you like a big like shh. Shh courtroom moment where like you know on the witness stand or like you know like they triumph for like the smoking gun that shows that this was all a setup he really was innocent. But like in the case like it does show that the original the original conviction of him. Of similar to the Oj case, like you know regardless of innocence or guilt was very improperly handled to the point of like maybe even corruption. Okay. So let's get to what I think is is the most fucking like jaw-dropping like is out of your head moment in this movie. That looking back on it is again, pretty fucking. Pretty fucking tight. There's a scene where. Like Alan is is, is he sort of like he's feeling down? He feels like they're probably GONNA lose the case and he's just sort of bent over and he's like, I don't know what to do and he's talking to. The the Rhode Island, Council that they've hired like have standing in front of the Rhode Island Supreme Court and he says to him. You know why? Everyone's so fascinated with this case you know what's really going on here. It's because deep down inside. Every single man. has fantasized about killing their wife just like Klaus. Every single man has thought of a way that they could kill the when they wanted to kill their wife and thought who way they could get away with it, and that's why. Everyone. ME. is so invested in this case. and. SORTA similar like when he told when he tells the law student like imagine your your husband divorces you and accuses you of molesting your son and happens all the time in the same thing with this is like, yeah literally, every single man has tried to concoct a scenario where they could surreptitiously kill their wife and make it look like a she fell into a coma or died of natural causes. Okay. That's The thing is not just the kind of what they wanNA kill their wife. It's like no, they have pace the number of yards it's GonNa, take them to have to like walk in turn around. So they can plausibly have an alibi or whatever the hell. That's the whole different thing and that as a crime of passion but something you spend years thinking about waiting for the perfect opportunity to do so which. kind of seems like Klaus von Bulow did with these two different fucking Komo's that his wife fell into and like knowing or all of her medical conditions and like you know. And then I guess at the movie eventually implies is that it's like it's very likely that Sunny von Bulow tried to kill herself, and that's what did her end but it is also equally likely that clouds knew that and had an opportunity to save her or call the an ambulance or essentially like allowed her to kill herself or put her in a situation in which that was an inevitable outcome and that he he all he would have to do with simply look the other way for her to die like that's essentially the the case that the movie mix. Another great line. Allen says about this case about Klaus von Bulow is like well, you know everyone was like, well, you know he's a he why did he act so guilty after the second coma and Allen says. Any man would feel guilty if their wife was suicidal. Google Alan Dershowitz his first wife on that one folks any man would feel guilty if other people thought is wife was suicidal. So basically you know they make they make their appeal the Rhode Island Supreme Court and they persevere the case is overturned and it is later revealed that the the notes that the private prosecutor took regarding what they gave to the prosecution vastly different from the story that was told in court about nobody like the issue of the insulin needle was concocted after the. Fact or it was not mentioned or discovered in their initial investigation of it was sort of like after the fact, legal justification that was given premade to the prosecution despite evidence essentially being manufactured or like a chain of custody or WHO's insulin needle it was or how and why it was found was tainted and like I said, he was acquitted in his second trial So they win and there's a scene where Dershowitz his back in back in class teaching and he goes they're. Giving his little homespun legal stuff and he goes. They. Call it the death penalty, but it is not a penalty you are out of the game and then he goes listen the the law is cudgel. It's not a rapier I am not a rape. Watson. Pick that. Soared Allen. There's you know there's an EPI cutlass broad sword. Yeah. No. SCALPELS scalpels he goes yeah. Good scope will be perfectly law is not a rapier. I just imagine Alan Dershowitz going on Tucker like I just wanted to be clear I'm not a rapier in. The law is not a wife Kilyos. What's ahead Alan Odom Roman? And then you know so so he wins essentially and. The fortunes of cross on bulow are reverse e gets away with baby killing his wife or maybe he wasn't innocent man that would have been sent to jail for thirty years of not having killed his wife. But you know they the last moment that they talk together like you know Jeremy Irons was like this right news Allen Great News and just next I may maybe we can get lunch and just be granted I would love to talk to you. I would love to play Radel with you. And you know before he gets on his like you know the private elevator to leave his. House and he turns job and he says, you know Klaus one thing he's like you know this was legally this wasn't important victory. Marley. We're on Euro. And that's kind of like the final statement of the film in its ambiguity about you know the role of a lawyer, the role of Dershowitz and like how we're supposed to feel about Klaus von Bulow is that like maybe like on the surface like a lawyer like it it did have merit and he was right to get off. But like morally were all on her own like truly like the only the only real law is what we can live with ourselves and if we get away with it, you know so you'll he says morally Klaus you're on your own but. Also. Kind of a reflection on Alan Dershowitz himself morally you're on your own. Well that morally on your own was interesting. Because he was basically saying like I'm not going to hang out with you after this cases. Yeah. because. The legal reading is but I know what morally like you fucked up. So what was different about Jeffrey Epstein Yeah Alad Hung Out with him a lot. All the time they would be in each other's top eight on my space. There on the interlink and those those twitter I mean, honestly difference this is like we'll one. Epstein had a fuck load more money than Klaus von Bulow, or any of his family's ever did close been awesome like pro level killing your wife but you don't get Lebron money for that sport. But, also, like I've seen was a guy who was like you know a Jewish kid from Brooklyn. Didn't. He wore sweatsuits everywhere like you would. He dressed like a bum in like. Also Never. Graduated College and Shit our no. Maybe it was easier to hang out with Epstein than it was at bulow because. Like, like Alan says bulow like you know it's it's hard to trust someone that you don't understand well, and I think you I think he did understand Jeffrey very well. Okay. So that's why. Yeah. That's why like Bohemian Grove is so beautiful. When the Clinton should be lauded for their international child sacrificing because usually. When people sacrifice children, Tamala, and fuck them and all these ceremonies they just stick to their own race like. Epstein, he's doing Dershowitz allegedly The UK parliament they're are only doing it with each other with only other Anglos I assume it's that way in every other country culture but Bohemian Grove brings in people from all around the world to do it, and that is the message of this movie that if you're going to sacrifice children and kill your wife, you should do it should be with progressive stack should be with everyone and that's how. Overcome all our differences and that is we need to we need to let the hoi of the the meritocratic strivers of the of the ethnic groups. be intermingled with. Our. Our. Wasp. Traditional ruling class so that the system strengthened itself over time rather than become imbredded and brittle. And Lake again like the. About his relation to Epstein it's like Yeah. All these people are like, yeah. Klaus. Von Bulow fucking Weirdo like dude like yeah. Like I guess I'll take I guess you know yeah I'll work on his case but the I don't WanNa to hang out with them but then you think about like all these people that were like one over by Epstein like whether like. was he any less fucking insane and bazaar or like the rumors? Pussy. Seen like von Bulow is just like a weird European vampire you should yeah. One of those people you mean real life who's like was Your Dad Dracula? What the Fuck Dude. was just like a dumb ass and that y'all relatable like he just yeah like a, it's a really dumb guy thing to do to be like, I'm going to get the best scientists and you get like Steven pinker. Yes, be you get all the best scientists you're like y'all can I would if I made a clone of myself and he became a police officer. He was a fucking dolt that's the coolest thing about this whole thing is that obscene was just like? I guess you would say clever but like. Intellectually just very dull and the lake. I we were actually talking about this after the movie how you Matt pointed out there only like four billionaires in America during the Eighties Epstein thing the shows clever. Intellectual. Saying, in the eighties that he only manage the money, a billionaires which limited him to like seven client. Yeah. No. Interesting tell it interesting del If you're considering, getting into these sport of wife Killing Definitely Watch this movie. I like this at the very end where Klaus von. is going he he he's like Oh, I'm going to move to London because they have more favorable laws for wife killing but. He goes he goes to dangle and he's on the front page of oppose being sold at the at the data and he's like good I have two taxes did pedophile menthols or whatever dracula's smoke and ones like, yeah, you go and he goes oh and. Could I have a needle of insulin? Yes she looks at him like what the fuck any gestures to the picture of himself on the front page of the post and she's like. He's like just kidding he killed my wife buys. His. His his intensely unsettling. In lip smile and nod of the head to this like this clerk lady who's just like what what? Do you packs of Benson and hedges and a shot of insulin. And he's just like Yep that's me on the paper. But I I do have to say i. wish they still made movies like this they don't make movies like this or Michael They don't make like mid tier or even high my glade legal thrillers that are like a medium budget anymore it sucks man it's ass. Like the only movies we get our like a movie about a comedian where like I don't know you fuck in his wife s imposter syndrome or marvel movies. There should be just make a movie about allender like make a Alexander Payne movie about Alan Dershowitz now, and the other thing I was talking about is like you know like all of these scenarios that that Dershowitz in the movie sketches out about how you know our legal system is for the one innocent person who everyone else's has decided is like the most evil scum imaginable and they've been abandoned by their friends family, the public the media they've been ostracized, and if you're innocent person or even if you're not in that situation, like our legal system is such that like everybody deserves it offense in and like your lawyer. Is the only person who will truly be in your corner in that situation. And I was just thinking that in later those like articles that came out like a year ago. That wasn't even about Dershowitz disconnection to Epstein. They were just about his relentless shilling, Donald Trump and the peach case and his like going on Fox News all the time to like make some spurious legal argument in Defensive Donald Trump, and it was just all about how he was like a profile like highly featured about him about how no one is friends with him in Martha's vineyard anymore. And I was wondering like W- we're like were they fringed you like they knew about all this fucking like Epstein Shit Dude and apparently he was like a notorious horn dog on Martha's vineyard to and like would walk around the beach with a Kubota out like all the time. You didn't ever. Read. Yeah look. Was Martha's Vineyard for me Let me see I was seventy eight years old. My name is Alan Dershowitz five four were a bathrobe at all times and had the worst head Oh instead of a mouth. Both my parents are Jeffrey Epstein, Long Story? God just did a hard on. That's pretty impressive. Is Age because he blue customer I don't know but like I. Like I said like I films interesting in and of itself I wouldn't really call it a legal thriller. It's it's really more of a procedural with the movie is really about is this kind of state of of moral uncertainty and ambiguity that we all live in like like it comes to foreign trial I can never really be resolved by any case if you like the. More you look at like any case or really investigated like the less sure you are about anything and like you can never really be in England closes narration of the movie is like you know by the end, it's like it's never really one hundred percent totally resolved what happened to her but like in her sort of from beyond the grave narrations, he says like you know. like this is the bad I am in. I will always be in you now know. Like, like all that you ever will know and you never will until you where I am right now and that's kind of like the final statement on it and I thought it isn't it's Very. Interesting procedural like I said that his shot through with these very like. Sly I think slyly subversive and perverse flourishes in its portrayal of these two men, Alan Dershowitz and Klaus von Bulow that I think come from Barbados Schroeder's Sensibility. I think you can sort of draw out of his other other film like is is other over his Canon of work but like also just like Dershowitz is now basically in the position that caused phone bulow was in the eighties like his name is about a shit. Thinks he's. Celebrity. Him. His name is now synonymous with. I'll just be as. Charitable as possible and say, going way way out of his way to defend his friend, the serial pedophile human trafficker. And like you just make it was intimately involved in crafting the plea deal that kept him out of doing any real jail time. The first time he fucking got arrested for this year has there was a very serious legal principle. Solicit. Clients Choose No I yeah. I recommend everyone watch this for the for themselves through the myself today. But then also like about like after von Bulow like his next most famous thing was the fucking Oj case. which is like kind of like maybe even more clear-cut example of helping a rich guy killed his wife. Well. But again, if you, if you look at that actual case, the prosecution did end the cops completely fucked it up, and like you may like, you know you could have made a case like if you're on that jury to acquit based on how badly the fucking like the handle the evidence although the witnesses they use like you know they created that reasonable doubt for what you know. Let's be honest. Here was almost certainly a guilty man. But Alan Dershowitz you know like. The celebrity that came from it like the feeling of of doing the impossible. But again, it always like again standing up for the principle over like you know you're your amidst your immediate moral judgment. It does seem a pattern forming here of finding that important legal principles make a stand on on behalf of guys that kill their wives or sex traffic children or have driven an earlier wife to suicide maybe perhaps allegedly. Do you love and you'll never work a day in your life. Postscript for this movie. There we go. will be back to covering the the INS and outs of politics and upcoming conventions which I think the democratic. Convention can started today. Gentlemen I believe I believe we're GONNA try to do twitch coverage that convention tomorrow or or ongoing yeah. Yes. I think we can go ahead and announce that I will figure out some way to get us all wired in and and watching all those beautiful zooms speeches. And clowning over them. Yes. So hopefully, we'll be a tune in with us tomorrow. At some point we'll be we'll be watching the Democratic convention all week long covering it on twitter Tuesday and Wednesday nine to eleven. The are the Times that we're going in. There we got we got to see cast we got to see Biden We got to see Dr his wife Dr Joe Biden gave her speech wonderful. No John. CASICK will be given a full hot neil for his speech Merrick cited for the man. He's just he's just get out there on the center vittles finally she just get out there and do muck bang stuff on on. Just a whole gigantic chicken sandwich. That's what we want to say from case but look at his face when they brought up that possible I still remember it. So so happy like in that scene in the groundhog day when Bill Murray tries to help the Hobo and he's at the diner and he's passes over his His soup and this is just turn into fucking quarters. We'll be back like I said, covering the convention and originally regularly discussion regularly scheduled breakdown of all. The hijinks in the INS and outs of this presidential election and American politics and culture but until then checkout. Barbara. Schroeder reversal of fortune starred Ron Silver Jeremy Irons and Glenn Close for an interesting film and certainly an eye opening one in light of recent events considering concerning its main character the dirt. Until Next Time Gentlemen bye-bye. Do. Anything else. Yes violence.
Jo Handelsman on the Surprising News That the Earth is Running Out of Dirt
"Today's show is sponsored in part by the Ellen all the center for Communicating Science. We do workshops all over the world to improve communication in stem and medicine. Check US out at all. The Center Dot Dot Org burnout is significant problem. Among healthcare professionals people join field because they want to help other people and then they leave because they feel overworked and undervalued. Yeah and research shows that a lack of communication and empathy among and between healthcare teams contributes to burn out and it also reduces the quality of patient care so to address this problem the all the center for communicating science has developed the all the medical experience this is in evidence based curriculum that focuses on helping healthcare professionals learned to communicate to collaborate and to connect with their colleagues clearly in vividly as a health. 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Actually we take credit for the prize. Didn't hurt and do you know. Another student of ours came in second in the worldwide competition in London where researchers had to explain their science to lay the people I know and then one student won first prize for speaking about her science in a competition in Norway and another was named teachers a year in Norway. So Alan if people want to know a little bit more about the oldest center where they go they go to alter center dot org. That's all the center dot org use shaded. If you're looking for pod swag merchandise head over to pod SWAG DOT COM to shop brand new items in the clear and vivid collection. The new additions to the collection include a hat stainless steel. Tumbler Humbler pint glasses. and A T shirt featuring the great Alan alda way showed the t shirt that has a picture of me on it right. I don't think it's in poor taste to walk around with a picture of myself on my shirt. No you're going to confuse a few people or excite them. I'm not sure or scare them. That's also a possibility but the t shirt is really really nice. It's a beautiful blue fabric and it's kind of an vintage design not unlike yourself yea goes with my vintage design okay. Let's good plus Allen. New Designs and styles are constantly being added so listeners of clean vivid you can shop the collection today at pod Swag Dot com slash alda. That's pod swag dot com slash A. L. D. A.. I'm on my way. I'm Alan older. And this is clear and vivid conversations about connecting and communicating. There's something like between twice and ten times as many bacterial cells in us as there are human cells in us so they they are us and we are damn if you take all the bacteria together they have one hundred two thousand four different kinds of to do things than we ourselves do. That's Dr Joe Handles. Men Who Studies microbes the University of Wisconsin not only the vast array of microbes that live in us and on us but also the even greater number that lurk in the soil beneath our feet. I talked with Joe. About why both the microbes within in Blois are so important to our survival but we began our conversation which took place last fall talking about the weather which these days often leads to talk. That's far from small Joe. I'm so glad to be talking to you today. I'm especially glad because you're in Wisconsin and I'm in New York and you had to drive through a snowstorm to get to the studio studio but was what what's happening there. I wish I knew what was happening. we have had to snowstorms already in Madison Wisconsin. And this is Tober. This isn't even Thanksgiving yet. No this is Halloween we still we still have beautiful. Our engine Red Ed and green leaves on trees and we have snow sticking to them. There wasn't that much of it is only about four or five inches which is nothing for Madison but It was just so slippery that people were sliding off the roads at every turn so what should have been about a twenty five minute drive was an hour and a half so it was. It was a it was a white knuckled trip. But that's climate change for us right. Is this really an example. Can we cite this. For instance has an example of climate the climate crisis. I call it Because for a long time scientists were reluctant to pin the moniker. Climate change on any individual events because it it's weather rather than climate in most cases. But do you think you can call something like what you went went through this morning. The effect of climate change. No I probably can't we still. I think are are hesitant to a pin any individual weather event on climate change but when you have these patterns of storms coming at a greater intensity city over and over and over or at a different time of year as was the case Today and last week when we had snowstorms then the pattern income's climate change and I think one of the topics we'll talk about. Today is the increase in intensity of of rainstorms in the Mid West over the last sixty or so years and that is clearly a more than a weather trend. That's that's a climate trend. Something that really really interests me a lot. Is You know they talk about the butterfly effect where some little action by a little actor can have eventually a huge effect and I think a great example of that is your work in soil and how we all depend on soil to eat to survive and the the condition of soil is affected by this little guy the bacterium and not only soil. But everything else in our lives. which is it only lately that we begin to understand the importance of bacteria in our lives? I think it certainly become an intensified impression Russian over the last fifteen or so years because we've begun to study not only bacteria environment and bacteria is causes of disease but bacteria as causes of health. And I think that's been one of the most startling discoveries that has really caught the public's attention the more more read about the microbiome the more in Awe I am of them because we not only live because of them uh we are them to a great extent on what. What's the current estimate of the number of bacteria that are in on the human body? There's something like between twice and ten times as many bacterial cells in us as there are human cells in us so they they are us and we are them They outnumber ourselves Quite dramatically and they also have tremendously more genetic capacity. And that's the part that I find the most fascinating remain. What do you mean? But if you think of the complexity and the number of different genes in the human genome if you take all the bacteria together they exceed our own genetic complexity or capacity by somewhere between one hundred and a thousand fold so that means that they have one hundred two thousand fold different more different kinds of pathways and functions and abilities is to do things than we ourselves. Do with these little guys who've not not not any one individual rights to the collection of the collection. It's the entire community put together and that's really what has come out in. I think the last fifteen or so years is this tremendous biochemical colon genetic capacity of these organisms. And that's why they have the ability to shape so many different diseases. There have been some pretty remarkable experiments in mice and the number of different characteristics of the mice. That can be changed with the microbiome. Like what. What's it's an example of that? The truly groundbreaking experiment was when they transferred. Bacteria from the guts of lean and obese is people into germ free mice and the mice became either lean or obese depending upon which bacteria they received and of course that was an entire community of organisms hundreds of different species but there are certainly patterns of types of bacteria in the obese condition edition in many people. And it's not one hundred percent it's certainly not the only cause but it is one of the contributing factors we think. There's there's some evidence now from here at the University of Wisconsin on a propensity for Alzheimer's disease and the microbiome their particular metabolites or chemicals that some bacteria produce that seems to make people more susceptible to Alzheimer's or are these. These chemicals are elevated in people who have Alzheimer's so how do they get up to the brain from the GUT O. That's one of the great questions that's something. The live is really interested in and my hypothesis is that it's many different ways that sometimes the chemical itself will travel but I would bet that more often it's the chemical stimulating the vagus nerve. which is the big nerve that connects the brain and the gut? And it's that process and then just an electrical impulse from there. You know I've read a little bit about this as good as the guy in the Netherlands cloud shepherd John's you probably are aware of him and he seems to have done some early work on how microbiome and gut a- affects the vagus nerve in some way and cause Parkinson's or at least have an effect on partners on dopamine production in the brain. I'm very interested in that because because I have Parkinson's so cure Parkinson's for me in the next thirty seconds. Well I would love to in fact I've been thinking about it ever since. I heard that you had Parkinson's since and I've been reading everything I can and just last night. I read an article on Parkinson's and the microbiome and the picture they painted in. That article was much more complex that that they couldn't develop a strongest statistical connection between the composition of the microbiome and the propensity for Parkinson's but I don't think it's going to be that long before we can begin to manipulate the microbiome to achieve particular signals. And and I think Parkinson's is a great example. I'm working with a group here at Madison on exactly that question. What happens with the microbiome? As Parkinson's progresses or with people who have it or don't have or have a precondition versus the full blown disease. So I hope to have an answer not in the next thirty seconds. I signed up all right. Well we'll we'll try to get you. I'm answers soon. The interesting thing is that what we've just been talking talking about is what we're used to hearing about. Microbes is that causes trouble. But I know you have the opposite view in a way that they do. Some of them do causes trouble. But don't the vast majority of them help us absolutely. There are only about eighty species issues that we know of their actual full blown pathogens but there are thousands and thousands of species that benefit us in their environmental affects in soil in the atmosphere and in our own bodies and in just about every process that we run on earth war war in our own health the microbes play a role and and that spans from the kinds of neurological disease or health. That we've been talking about from depression to Parkinson's All the way to climate change and the microbes were here long before we were billions of years before we were and and they shaped the earth that we know today and in fact the biggest event in the Earth's history was the big oxygenation event as we like to call it. When when did that happen? And how did it happen. Well about three point. Eight to three point. Five billion years ago. Bacteria called cyanobacteria evolved oft that began to produce oxygen using the power of the sun and eventually the oxygen began to build up from the the oceans became saturated with oxygen and then it began to be released from the oceans into the atmosphere so now we had an oxygenated atmosphere so so we could carry on the aerobic respiration that we know of today in many many organisms including us but then even just as important step was that as oxygen molecules began to be split by the UV. Light from the sun you would get a single oxygen oxygen atoms and when a single oxygen atom could react with an o two molecule which is kind of oxygen we breathe. They would form a three well. That's ozone zone. And the ozone began to accumulate in the stratosphere to protect the the surface of the earth from some of the UV radiation that the sun commits that made life on land impossible before that and so it was the ozone layer that allowed life to migrate from the Oceans Onto Land and those cyanobacteria. I heard you say harsh still hugely important in protecting us against the climate crisis. Oh absolutely because they fixed carbon they they represent About half of the carbon fixation on earth and an and of course trees plants are very important but the oceans are just as important and it's the photosynthetic bacteria that fix carbon. They take carbon out of the air out of the form of carbon dioxide and turn it into food for themselves a half of all the carbon that choked up. He's done by these bacteria. Yes photosynthesis is in the ocean. So is there a danger if we screw around with the ocean too much. We're GONNA kill that that capability to Oh sure we can mess up anything. How much a role does bacteria play in soil? When when I think of soil I think of it as something you can grow something in so how? How dependent are we on? Bacteria to to gross stuff to we can eat and built houses with. We're completely dependent dependent. So soil is a mixture of pulverized rock that has been weathered by the elements and by bacteria over a very very very long time millennia and then it becomes colonized by bacteria and plants and then eventually animals and as those organisms grow and die the bacteria decompose. What's left of them and that releases carbon and all sorts of other nutrients into the soil? And that's what makes call. The organic component of the soil gives it. Its rich black color. If you're in Wisconsin the black color not all soils or black of course. And that's what gives it its life giving properties and that's why we can grow plants in it is that it's this dynamic rich ecosystem. There are there more organisms in soil than any other ecosystem we know it's the most biologically diverse environment. Do we have an estimate by the way of how many species exist of microorganisms. Well Oh my lab did a an estimate a number of years ago where in for the soil and we ended up with a range of between four thousand species and and forty thousand species per gram of soil which is like small teaspoonful and that was close as we get We know that there are of course. Many many more thousands of species than that some people say there are few million species of bacteria. But I think we're so far from describing adding all of bacterial life that it's Kinda hard to know so we we mentioned how messing around with the ocean can really affect the atmosphere. What should we know about soil? The soil is really the source of ninety six percent of our food food and a lot of the balance of life on earth. So I think it's one of the most unappreciated aspects of our planet. But it's ubiquitous on land. Of course it's all around us. We use for building for making pottery for building roads and of course horse for growing most of our food and the bacteria critical soil as our plants and a cycle that occurs between the plants and the bacteria give soil its beauty and its structure and its health as the plants grow. They fix carbon from the atmosphere sphere through photosynthesis and they put a almost half of their carbon into their roots. which is really interesting? Because you'd think that they would they would build hold themselves above ground with their carbon but in fact most plants shuttle a lot of their carbon to their roots and about a third of that ends up outside the roots and what if what effect does that have. Are they feeding the bacteria or what is it exactly. Oh Yeah. They're not wasteful. Then we I guess on my part desert great guests because that's who's living around them on their roots and is they they exude all this carbon into The area around the roots the bacteria eat it and one of the things that bacteria produce among the many many ways that they will use that carbon is they produce these long sticky. ticky strands of polysaccharide adds that stick soil particles together and so one of the things that give soil. It's big structure. Sure you know how you can get kind of a Clod of soil and it sticks together. That's because of the bacterial polysaccharide. It's and so one of the things that for example my lab is is interested in is how do we increase that process. And perhaps encourage the plants to excrete more carbon into the area round on their roots and then encourage the bacteria to produce more polysaccharide to give soil. More strength and resilience will. What's the effect of the stickiness of the soil? Why is that a good thing? Well part of it is that it gives soil the architecture that it needs to have good growth that if you imagine soil All as little particles of sand it can get packed down really hard and it's not as healthy for for plants. But if you imagine those is big Claude's there are a lot of spaces for movement of air and water through the soil and it's it's better for plant growth but even more importantly late when we get a hard rain and as I was saying we were talking about climate change before one of the trends we've seen is a sharp sharp increase in the very heavy precipitation events In the Midwest in particular over the last fifty years and those very hard hard rains will break up soil particles and wash them away when I come back with Joe handles manipulative short break. Joe Explains to me the ironic in scary fact that the very farming methods we practiced for thousands of years are putting our ability to feed ourselves in danger. You know it's clear that women still face challenges in their professional lives. And at the Alamo. At the Center for communicating science were focused on building connections and effective communication to address some of these challenges in the power connection workshop. Participants sharpen their ability to communicate in professional environment and during the course of the program. Participants connect with each other using improvisational exercises sizes. And that really gives a solid foundation for real communication and in our power connection workshop. Women are able to hone their ability to navigate eight power dynamics to deepen their connection their authenticity their authority and to work to handle difficult conversations. They leave the workshop ready. Ready to better advocate for themselves and for others and they're now genuinely connected in new ways and ready to continue with this work together long past the workshop. Learn more sign up all dissenter dot org slash power dash connection. That's all center dot org slash power dash connection. This is clear and vivid and now back to my conversation with Dr Johann Vilson Show Joey. Are we doing things to the soil around the world. That's putting us in danger. Where causing soil to erode quite rapidly the the US Department of Agriculture TAKES US soil erosion data every few years they and they publish the overall rates and the last report they they had reported that soil was eroding on average across the United States About three point seven two four tons per acre per a year which doesn't mean much most people but when you think that soil can be produced at at most a half a tonne per acre per year mm-hmm and probably in many soils much less than that by when you say it can be produced. You mean if you just leave it alone let nature take its course exactly exactly just the natural soil genesis process. It takes hundreds of years to make just one half an inch of soil and so if we're eroding at ten and in some areas even a hundred times faster than the soil is being produced. That's just not sustainable table by any measure. But the story gets worse than that because These these very hard rain storms are increasing the rate of of erosion and so that that roughly four tons per acre per year probably is an underestimate in the years to come. Because we've seen a steady rise it's been Essentially a nonstop increase in hard rains in the mid West best over the last fifty years also showed an increase rain that may be a function of climate. Change is who wrote the soil faster so so that there's a vicious cycle happening that's right because they erode the soil and that actually contributes. It's in some ways to climate change because carbon can be released as a gas from eroded soil so it may end up increasing climate change change and then if climate change contributing to these hard rainstorms than more soil erodes and. Because we've been plowing our soil's for so long young and most farmers about two thirds of farmers still use the standard old fashioned plow that breaks up the soil particles. And that's what's the most destructive thing we do. It's one of the things that I disagree with. Thomas Jefferson on. He said once that the greatest invention in human history was the mold aboard plow. And I would say that that has been the cause of more Civilizations to self destruct than probably any implemented lamented that has ever been invented so he was wrong about that most wonderful example of being smart and not seeing unintended consequences sequences exactly. And if you know if you don't look at the history of soil it's hard to see on on human normal human life scale but now it's becoming more and more evident because there are more and more areas in the United States that just don't have any more soil. Yeah You can you can fly over Iowa for example and see you know that Nice Dark Brown land after it's been plowed except there. These white spots sticking through these sort of light tan spots and those are areas where they're down to the sub soil or bedrock. There's no topsoil and I heard recently the twenty five percent of Iowa has lost its topsoil and that's one of the most productive agricultural states in the country the more the more you lose it sounds like the more you lose the more. You're on a speeding train. Going even faster to lose more. Yeah I think that's true because you have fewer fewer plants and less biological activity to hold the rest of the soil. The amazing thing about soil loss is that we have this long history. Eight thousand years of using plowing and other bad agricultural techniques that destroyed the soil and cause to wash away and there are civilizations throughout history that have collapsed because of this from Easter Island. Two there's now evidence that perhaps the Roman empire was partly destroyed by the loss of soil. And you can imagine. Why if if soil isn't there than crops can be grown and the civilization is dramatically weakened but despite that we still continue with the farming methods that destroy soil structure? And we know very well. What message would would stop that? Process would be an example of a method of farming. That doesn't destroy soil. There are three big ones in one is no till farming arming. Where instead of plowing and putting the seeds in furrows you actually drilled seeds into last year stubble and the beauty of that is is that the plants from last year still have decaying roots and a lot of organic matter or plant material that is decomposing housing and that material stays in place gives the soil at structure and instead of turning it over and breaking up the clogs and exposing all of all of the undersoil to the atmosphere where keeping it in place and so no till agriculture was first introduced in the one thousand nine hundred seventy s and it's used in other countries in fact far more extensively than in the United States I think Brazil has no till agriculture on between between two thirds and three quarters of their land and the United States is still under thirty percent of our land in no till so that would be the first thing is to move to you know till agriculture the second is to use cover crops and those are crops that we plant after harvesting the main crop but that stay in place is over the winter. And if you fly over the mid West you can see for about almost eight months a year just bare soil. Unless they're snow covered like today so why why that seems like an easy thing to do. Is it costly to to plant So what do you plan. What kind of plant do you put there for the winter? A lot of with different ones. You can use grains you can you can use what's called green manures which are plants that you just plough under in the Spring and actually we make the soil healthier and suppressed Z's there are also for example. There's a kind of wheat that you can plant in the fall and then harvest in the spring mhm but a lot of depends on the climate and the you know the type of agriculture that a farmer is part of but it can be expense that it's it's more expensive to plant the crop. If it's not going to be harvested and a lot of cover crops are there just to enrich the soil and protect the soil. And what's the third do. Do you have a third way to in the third one is inter cropping and that one has is fascinating to me because of how little little you have to do to get enormous impact narrow. These studies showed with this strip cropping they they take about ten percent out of of their their corn out of production and replace it with these deep rooted prairie plants. which are the plants? That I generated the great soils of the Mid West and they instead of putting all their energy into a corn ear. They put their energy into their roots because they're perennials. They WANNA live till next year so they have to store up energy in their roots and the result is that they build the soil. They're just wonderfully enriching to soil and in this one study. They found that just ten percent of the corn replaced by these prairie plants in little strips throughout the Cornfield would reduce erosion rozier by ninety five percent. Wow so you've got three ways to help the problem and the whole world has to get interested in this. This sounds sounds like a huge communication problem. I agree I think we just need to get people on board. I think it's really hard for farmers to do this. On on their own. Because these techniques will always take capital to to to transfer to write any kind of change is going to cost some sort of money and farmers have such small margins and they're usually working just at the edge so it's really hard for the individual farmer to make those changes is and so my own belief is we need to get consumers on board to say. This is the kind of food we want. We want food that has been produced with soil soil safe methods when you were science advisor to President Obama. Were you working on this very problem. I was and and one of my regrets was that I was never able to get a memo to the president about this issue but I did work on it with the the food retail community with farm groups with soil and conservation groups and and other parts of government. And it's tough very naughty problem. Show how do we do it again. Through consumers I think we need just like we did with recycling colling like we did with changing smoking habits. When people become aware of a problem they changed their behaviors and We we brought in fair trade coffee for example and people are willing to pay small premium to know that their coffee was produced under fairtrade conditions and. I think that the same thing could be effected if people knew about how important our soil is and how much at risk the skit is. I go out and talk to public groups. I'm writing a book for Lay people about Soil that I hope will enlighten people. Full about how precious and important the soil is and how much at risk it is. I I heard you tell that. Wonderful Story About Mark Twain in Nineteen O seven seven realizing the importance of the benefits of bacteria. Win for so long. We've only thought of an continued even after Mark Twain wrote about it of we've only thought of bacteria is being harmful and causing disease. Who and what do you suppose made Mark Twain Glum onto that idea when he was alone voice in the desert well? It was a very specific thing. And it's even in the novel level that he wrote called my three thousand years with the microbes which is an unpublished novel that he wrote from the perspective active of the microbes and he introduces it with the lectures that he heard from Professor Cong? Co N who was the first bacteriologist reality in Connecticut? And spoke about soils and and microbes in their beneficial forms and the microbes inside of the people and Mark Twain heard his lectures and apparently that's all it took was a series of lectures. That got him so excited about these rich communities of microbes that he wanted to write about them from their own perspective. It's so great that his creative imagination was spurred by one lecture her and it. It's not so great that it wasn't wasn't published it didn't get people thinking about the the beneficial aspects of bacteria early enough. I mean we went what we go almost a century before people got not really hip to the idea that we need these little guys we are. We are these little guys. That's right I think microbiologists would have would have said. Yeah we we always knew that to some degree And I think we just need more More reaching out to the public about the power of the microbes ropes. When I'M GONNA ask you is from left field but I want to know what your what your professional knowledge is about this? I've read that the wonderful smell. I have to rain that so it's so it's such a refreshing smell to me. I think to most of us that that's really Eh. Bacteria rising in the air not only parts of bacteria but the Excrement diversions of the bacteria is. What do you know about that well? It's absolutely true. A group of bacteria called the streptomycetes devices produce a compound that has that very characteristic smell in fact when you grow the bacterium and the lab people will turn turn their heads and say I smell spring because it's so evocative and it turns out to be largely due to this one chemical which can be volatile volatile and after a rain goes off into the air. And that's what we smell so. Yeah I mean if there's something good in the world it's usually because of bacteria that that's the basic line that I use that I think is a really good thing to live by that if if there's something we love it probably is produced by bacteria. Well I'm sure glad for this conversation. Today I found it fascinating hand. I want to hear more from you and I and you you speak with real clarity the about this. And you're you're able to come up with examples and stories which help the rest of us it sticks in her mind. You say you're working on a book about this am Damn. It's called the world without soil. It sounds scary and we have to go but before we go. We always ask our guest guests seven quick questions that are generally related to to communicating. Are you game for it. They're not not embarrassing. The first one is what do you wish you really understood. I wish I understood microbial communities fully and a I think we'll I hope we'll have a better understanding of them in my lifetime but we don't truly understand the nature trove those really really complex communities of thousands of members and what makes them tick. What makes them hard to change? Resilient and and robust and then what makes them breakdown when they fall apart okay number two how do you tell someone. They have. ABC facts wrong. Well in the old days when I was in my twenties and thirties is yeah no. That's not right. I think we all have gone through that Phase I think so. How do you handle it now? Well I I always thought that was the right way to do it. Because there's a scientist were supposed to be protectors of the facts right. We're supposed to be promoting the facts and so I always thought it was almost. It's like a moral responsibility to let people know when they're wrong. But as I'm sure everybody can relate. That doesn't go over so well and so I have a series of phrases that I use. Well my understanding is or another way to think about it is then I give them a lot of evidence for that way of understanding so that their become convinced that that way of understanding one that they should certainly consider. Ah usually using questions I think is the best way to reach people who have very entrenched wrong ideas. That's very helpful. Very good very good. I think number three. What's the strangest question? Anyone has ever asked you. Yeah well there's one that always stands out to me I was called by the one of the advisers. The president about taking a position with President Obama's science advisor and when they kind of got to the next phase and started investigating. They said okay. So is there anything embarrassing. You've ever done that. Could embarrass you or the president and that's a pretty wide open answer. It sounds like ninety nine percent of all people would disqualify themselves exactly exactly exactly. And that's what I was thinking like. Oh my God I'm GonNa lose this job because then I could think about one hundred examples embarrass myself myself. That's great did you try them out on them or did you just finally turn off the Faucet of embarrassment. I did actually tell well one of them. Because I had no idea what they considered to be embarrassing. Like if I had embezzled funds or something okay. That probably wouldn't look so good if I hadn't paid by taxes I get it but there were Lino more complex and subtle ones and so I totally embarrassed myself by by giving in him one example and he said too much information. I that's great okay next question how do you oh you stop a compulsive talker. I usually don't I let them go and go and go and I find that. Most compulsive talkers eventually. Wear themselves out here. But aren't you lying on the floor by then. We'll I'll try that next. I'll that's a good. It's a good suggestion. Now here's one. How do you start up a real conversation with someone at a dinner party sitting sitting next to you who you don't know? Oh I don't know how do you do it. Well what would you must have. I have my own peculiar thing but it did. Have you debuted not developed the way of doing it yet. I usually ask something with a smile. That's sort Sort of I try to be beguiling about it but ask something. That's slightly rude like like. Are you actually zolder oldies. You look bad but what are you doing here. You know thing that sound a little bit aggressive tiffy say it with a smile. Then it's it's seen as as I think okay more I'm I'm slightly more intrusive I I say what. What are you passionate about not necessarily what you do for a living? What are you passionate about? Great and then they kinda opened up sometimes and so okay next one. What gives you confidence? Facts fact that's remember that answer before that's interesting. Why does the fact you've your confidence Because I feel like I know what I'm doing when I have a lot of information and and I feel shaky and on confident when I'm devoid of information. Facts arguments and ways to defend defend my position. Great last question. What Book Has Changed Your Life? Well to I'm not sure why but a portrait of a lady by Henry James when I read it when I was sixteen I immediately started. Rereading eating it and I can't say exactly how it changed my life but it made me certainly convinced that I wanted writing to be part of something anything that that I did and then actually book. I just happen to have here called black earth which is by Timothy Snyder who is a historian at Yale and wrote a a reinterpretation of Hitler and Mein Kampf and interpreted it interpreted it entirely in terms of Hitler's commitment to getting good soil and that was the invasion of Ukraine and he ties is in many many other arguments and it revolutionized my thinking about soil. As much as I have loved soil for forty years. It really changed my thinking talking about the history of soil and the impact that it's had what a good example of of a of a really interesting conversation where things things get turned around and you see the world from an angle that you never expected to see it from and that that I'm so grateful for a really happy time I'm with you just now. Thanks so much Joe. Thank you Allen. It's always so good to see great. Thanks I hope I see you soon. Bye Bye Okay Great. It has been clear and vivid. At least I hope so. My thanks to the sponsors of this episode all the income from the ADS. You go to the Center for Communicating Science at Stony Brook University. Just by listening to this podcast. You're contributing to the better communication of science. So thank you. Dr Joe Handles. Men is the director of the Wisconsin Institute Institute for Discovery at the University of Wisconsin Madison. He's also widely recognized for contributions to science education and diversity city in science in two thousand eleven. She was the recipient of the Presidential Award for Excellence in Science Mathematics and engineering mentoring from President Obama and a two thousand twelve. The magazine Nature named her one of ten people who mattered this year for her research on gender bias. In science dance for three years she served as science advisor to President Barack Obama as the associate director for Science at the White House Office of Science and Technology Allergy policy responsible for groundbreaking studies in microbial communication. And for work in the field of Meta genomics. You can find out more about Dr handles men and her research by visiting the handles men lab at the Wisconsin Institutes for discovery. The website is handled some in lab dot discovery Discovery Dot W.. ISE DOT EDU. This episode was produced by Graham. Shed with help from our associate producer. Sarah Shakes Chase our sound engineer. Is Dan Zula are tech. Guru is Alison. Costume are publicist Sara Hill. You could subscribe to our podcast cash for free at apple podcasts. Stitcher or wherever you listen for more details about clean vivid sign up for my newsletter police visit Allen Donald Dot Com. You can also find us on facebook and Instagram at clear and vivid and I'm on twitter at Alan alda. Thanks for listening bye bye life Nixon. Our series of conversations I talk with Lisa Calton Egger Lisa. You have such amazing things things to say about the search for life on other planets. How long have you been doing that? I think I was curious since I was a little child and now I get to find a whole well. New Worlds out there trying to figure out are we alone. If you find even a spectacle of life somewhere what that means is that life must is be everywhere then I think living in a world where you look up at the sky and you know that around all of these other stars planets in their some Life forms whatever shaved. They take. I think just puts me into even a deeper connection with customers. Lisa Helter Nager your next time on clear and vivid.
Kim Feil on Aspire Healthy Energy Drinks Rapid Growth and Women in Business
"Today's podcast is brought to you by audible. You can get a free audio download and Thirty Day free trial at audible trial dot com slash. Lash Alan and Alan Spelled A. L. A. N. for those that don't know again audible trial dot com slash Alan. There's over we're one hundred eighty thousand titles to choose from on your iphone android kindle or MP three player. If I were to recommend a couple books that are on my shelf. I'm in my library. Today I would recommend the culture code by Daniel Coyle or principles life and work and in the audible version of those. You'RE GONNA get your money's worth. I believe principles is something like Sixteen hours of audio and Rayleigh himself actually narrates most of the book so so again go to audible trial dot com slash Allen to get your free audiobook download and thirty day. Free trial For All of us. It's about predicting where the consumer is going and getting rid of it right one of the things we want to do. You is create odds that don't suck then bracing chains create great possibility. I'm Ellen Heart and this is marketing getting today today on the show. I've got a good friend Kim file. WHO's the chief marketing and strategy officer at aspire healthy energy drinks? But we're also gonNA talk about her path to aspire which is an entrepreneurial fast growing company and we'll learn a little bit more about what they're doing and And the growth. They've had but she's also been a Cmo at some of the world's largest companies from Walgreens to Sara Lee to officemax and through the OFFICEMAX office depot combination. So I hope you enjoy this wide-ranging conversation with Cam File Kim. Welcome to the show. Thanks so much on. It's always nice to have a friend across the table from doing so and I have to say you are one of the most full of life people. I know when we greeted outside the door. Here you get this huge hog this big smile. Where does all that energy and optimism come from? Well you know I adore you so you know I. I've been blessed to have been born with a very curious and active mind. I truly and genuinely love learning new things and meeting New People and hearing about information or weird little things that other people may not find interesting. I just got totally fascinated by the national geographic. Maher's show I don't know if you servicing the now it's a combination of documentary and then a fictional portrayal of the real science behind sending people to March. Wow so I just find myself intrigued by things and when I was a before I went to Grad School. I was journalist. So I'm pretty good at asking questions and probing for new stuff. Matt Matt kind of is what keeps me going. I want to be one of those eighty five year. Old People still call and say what do you think about this or that. I think I think you will be one diverse people for sure. Let's talk about your career. Where'd you start? You said journalism I did. I don't think I knew that. Well it's kind of a weird little pivot. I actually went back to Grad school to go into publishing. I wrote two articles about Frito lay on as a freelancer for a magazine. I thought what the Heck I'll interview and they come on campus and Bam. I became an assistant brand manager on toes and my whole career pivoted into marketing. Yeah but it's been it's been great. You know I had a real passion for the consumer goods. It's industry. My Dad was thirty eight years with procter and gamble. And I didn't realize that. By osmosis cited come to really love the industry right into that trap and I didn't intend tattoo obviously but I got a real good opportunity than to work and get to know the industry in depth so I spent a number of years as a manufacturer as a retailer Taylor and as a consultant to the industry. So I got to work. Great companies like Cadbury Schweppes and pepper-seven-up and Sara Lee and also was retailer with walgreens and officemax accent in between US president of Iraq. I so that's where I became a data geek. Before I even knew data Geeky was going to be good for getting the you have had had a bunch of big roles. We'll get into those big. CMO roles that you've had but were there any mentors along the way. Well I definitely did reference before my dad he was. It's amazing. It never saying what I should door suggesting. Anything to me but always saying anything's possible and turns out he was also one of the most staunch diversity advocates tickets at proctor and gamble way before it was cool to do so and so I was given a lot of good confidence to try new things with him. But then I would also say that it's more or a group that's been mentors to me which is a network of executive women which is a group dedicated to helping developing advance retain women in the consumer goods industry. Join them from the second year it was in existence. I served on the Board for eight years and today on the National Board nominating chair. But what's been most important along. The way is my exposure. Sure to some extraordinary leading women across industry in all areas off functions and people could have really authentic conversations with when I hit different pivots. I really needed advice about right. We'll let's hugely topical discussion today. It should have been addressed long ago. Diversity inclusion Asian. But it's nice to know folks like yourself are continuing to fight the good fight most definitely you know it's twenty nineteen and the last fortune five hundred company company to not have a woman finally put a woman on its board. Wow it's crazy though it's been till now that we have that exactly. I'm thankful as a dad of a daughter daughter myself that you're doing that works. Thank you you have had some big. CMO Rolls along the way you had I think. CMO stops at Sara Lee Walgreens walgreens and officemax. And how do you think I guess. What do you believe? Helped you get there and then may maybe more important for. CMO's day stay either right right. Well you know. It's one of those things. Sometimes I wake up and I go. Wow I fooled them. Amazing Jobs I mean it is easy sometimes to would back after just ed down but up working so hard and say wow. I really was blessed to be able to do all those things but I would say it's a few things one is. I've always has been a problem. Solver and I always thought roles that were very transformative and brands and companies that were looking for change. It's just something gravity they to. I've always focused on having a growth agenda wherever I was and for better or for worse in the earlier days of my career marketers were more expected to be about branding branding and consumer positioning and not so much about. How do you drive the bottom line? But I always was so. I think that that was something that allowed me to. Not only they do well where I was but also have the chances to move to other companies that were looking for more combination. Gm Anna Marketer perspective but make no Owns about one of the most passionate things I feel as the insight around consumers what makes them tick and there's nothing more exciting being in the consumer goods industry than watching your brand go down the checkout lane and you know Safeway and Walmart and go that I did that and that's my new flavor and wow look. They're buying that new package. I just designed so so. It's hard not to love the industry where you have a passion for it like that and and can make a difference and have impact on it. You know I think that's where you make the mark except people notice and I just did it because I liked it a lot and I got lucky that way I will. I think the answer. It was a little bit of the impostor syndrome rate. Hey you look around you. Hope they don't. I think everyone has a little bit inside of them as I've gotten older I truly you know talk to other people. They say the same thing and it's like you know someone will say I was a bad boy in college and somehow I became a CMO. And it really I think comes down to how especially Ashley for marketers. It's such a combination of art and science. Yes and of course. We've gotten a big dose of science in the last fifteen years because we've had access to the data and the measurement measurement tools in all the things that can prove that are artworks but at the same time without the art side and the creative side which often goes was an appreciated very much. It's one of those things where you go. How did I find my way in that navigation? Space around art and science and I- despite the fact Samos almost tend to have short term limits. And there have been some bumpy roads in my career to the fact is that it's one of the most amazing professions that I can imagine anyone ever having and it's it's that buried tension between art and science. That makes it so exciting. Will you. In the last few years you've pivoted towards board service and startups and entrepreneurial things you How did you know that that's where you wanted to go next? But you know sometimes you feel little restless right and so when I worked on the OFFICEMAX office depot merger emerged in two thousand fourteen and it was amazing experienced. Put to monoliths like that together. We had hoped they would stay in Chicago but it was chosen to go to Florida and I sat back at that point and I said you know. I've got thirty years behind me of amazing experience. But I don't WanNa go do another public company GIG. I had already started working as an adviser and advisory board member on a number of startups especially in retail tack in the spaces and some of the new social so at the time was new social spaces and gave me a lot of passion. I said you know what harm can do to jump off the deep end and try to be an entrepreneur for a while. If it doesn't work out I can always go back. I wouldn't go back I really wouldn't. It's been a great journey and I would say this. Why did I do? It probably wanted that new learning curve to develop something from scratch or from its very early stages. It's really a lot harder than than you might think when you're sitting in a corporate Britain environment where you're playing around with a multi million dollar budget but it's the the challenge of that and that journey that I've found so an so exciting. It's also been great that that my experiences have been invited to be on boards so I was able to serve on the Randy's board worked on that during the merger with Kroger and so to do a merger from the board side as a public public company board was a learning experience that I can't even explain having done many mergers from the C. Suite so that was a great learning curve and then to work with all these early early stage companies. Two of the ones. I've been advisor to exit. Learned a lot about private equity and venture capital and the journey continues Allen. I'm only five years into into this and I would say that there are so many things that you can't see when you're busy and a big public company environment that when you start to realize just how dynamic make the private equity and venture world is. It's it's like a whole new cedar plan so that's Kinda went. What's driving me now but I encourage people to truly think? CMO's can be advisors answers to early stage companies and just for the experience of that. I think it's worth it and then you never know you might run across swung on be involved in like I right right. Well that's awesome so let's talk about. Aspire healthy energy drinks tell listeners. I've had my fair share a spy especially at this summit that we're about to start. I just Brian Eight cases today. Can't wait tell listeners. W- aspire is in case. They haven't seen it yet. And what's the back story. Where where did it start? So aspire healthy energy drinks are healthy energy drinks you can consume every day it's No sugar no CARBS. No calories the caffeine gene and it is a combination of green tea that gives you the initial left and Gerona seed extract which is a slower metabolising longer-lasting smoother energy. So it's about as much as a strong cup of coffee which means you can drink it multiple times a day and it's also got big doses of B and c vitamins that give you mental alertness and focus so it's a combination of a nice physical and mental lift that I think makes aspire really different also lately sparkling in for delicious flavors and people are always surprised when they drink it because energy drinks don't usually taste good and we do so. We wanted to have something. The back story is twenty. Two year old happened doozy's men in the UK or concocting their own mixture using vitamins and powders and things from vitamin shops. And they said why. Can't we make this a ready to a drink forums so they worked with nutritious in the UK found their way scrappy scrappy to get into Holland and Barrett and TESCO over there and came over to the US us to try to build a distribution network here and long story short met are now CEO and decided to make it a US based company mows about done that a mutual friend. A friend introduced us because I was serving on around. He's bored and the brand wanted to get into Marianas our banner up in Chicago so I said well folks some public board member. Right can't just do that. Give me some product. I'll try it fell in love with it in three days. I got so much done because I had the energy and the focus to do it and so long story short. I'm I'm now the lead investor on the board and about three years ago. I came on fulltime a simone. CSL and were on the march toward domination. So it would tell tell us where you are today. I keep seeing pictures of you at the booths inside of Walmart Sam's Club and SAM's We're growing very fast. Will more than triple again. This year were passed. The hurdle rate coke considers to be the first ball out point for brands. Ends at. Don't succeed doesn't mean we will but I think we will. We've got something special so we're now in forty six hundred stores. Grocery carbon masses are focused. Where women shop because is our product is really great and consumed forty percent men sixty percent women? But there's no energy drinks really position as healthy for women so so We focused where they shop. We're in forty states. Were in two thousand stores. INTERNATIONALLY WE'RE IN COSCO. UK Iceland Spain. We just got COSCO Japan. More more in the major banners in all of Kroger hold Albertson's were growing our banners there And right now we're in the proving ground point of doing pop up stores at Sam's Club to see if we can get in next year so we're growing very very quickly importantly I think it's been great to see the consumer passion. We have forty six percent repeat rate online check US OUT AT ASPIRE DRI stock com or Amazon and do check out our locator on our website. 'cause you'll find US probably at a BJ's Club store or one of your local grocery or some targets in three states so we're making good progress. And I'm really proud of the fact that our team has been very disciplined Um We're also in the navy exchanges and our good friend here. CMO An had a merchandising for any acts was kind to help us get distribution there. That's also so We're making great progress. I'm really proud of the fact consumers. Love our brand are you. You may have mentioned this. I apologize because you're in two thousand locations internationally. Are you in Australia Australia. Not yet interest there so listeners. Out there in Australia. You should definitely start requesting spire pleased if we have a growing listener base in Australia. Most English speaking countries but all around the world including trying to get the listening approach. Yes okay I'll take it. I'll take the cup. So what's the Ingo. Do you think I mean you growing I would imagine you're reinvesting in the business yea dumpling but if you at some point it's going to spin off prophets. Are you looking to exit in the future. Maybe you don't WanNa talk now. No we're not afraid to talk about about it. First and foremost is to build a great brand and however long that takes and our own commitment to it is a thousand percents so growing great brand is is our priority we would. Let's see that it's likely it would be grown to a point in the next three to four years that we'd find a strategic exit and that's kind of what our radar looks like right now but you never number now. I mean many other companies grew so quickly they just decided IPO and make it a public company right so we don't limit any possibility but we're definitely only on that focus point of trying to grow it and see where we can take it right right. Well it's it is a great tasting drink doors. Exactly you heard it here here. I was marketing different at a startup than a big corporation. Well you know when I was at Walgreens I had a one billion dollar marketing budget. Now I have a ten thousand dollar marketing budget. So it's quite different but really kind of thrilling. So it's a very scrappy effort. We have a couple of people that do things things like manage our social technology platforms and do our visual design. I've convinced a couple of media and a creative agency to work for equity our number number one marketing strategy which works beautifully is sampling because people do expect it not taste good when they get it in their mouth they go wild. This is surprising so we do you. We've already sampled over ten million people over the last three years because we do sampling programs in the stores and events this weekend. I'll be doing the American Cancer Society. Breast Cancer Walk in Chicago doing sampling there. For fifteen thousand people doing the walk so we get out we get it out in people's hands is really key we also you've found because we've cultivated some very extraordinary every day influencers people like nurses who've been drinking a lot of coffee and tea that's short term. They grabbed drive all day and then they feel bad or energy drinks that are high sugar and they. They don't like what it does to them so nurses passionate about as much overnight. Nurses we have a a flight attendant from southwest airlines who takes pictures of aspire all over the world wherever he goes so we call to beat the stories because really aspire tire is there to be the allied help people have the energy and focus to achieve what they want every day. So it's very much people story and so we cultivate that in our social official media platforms coming this coming year. We will be turning a profit and we will be reinvesting Matt in more marketing so our plan is to integrate more traditional and enhanced digital into the plan coming into the new year. So watch for that but it's been a real scrappy effort. That's awesome that's awesome. It's it's exciting to see how much success you've had ad and and continue to have and so I wish the best for you having this perspective of big big brands and smaller but growing. Britain's what what do you feel like the biggest challenges or opportunities for big brands and fast growth companies today are they may be different challenges. Frankly I don't know but it's interesting how we're all swimming in the same scene. Now when I was at a great big brand I would go all look at all those cute little brands trying really hard. They'll never make it look what happens happens right right. Huge are expired. Got Enquired by Kellogg's huge vodka and Deep Eddie. And I mean Bruce One after another of these little scrappy brands. It became something very special and different so I think the challenge for big brands. Is there a little bit mired. In the bureaucracy. The lack of autonomy the inability to be nimble in a lot of legacy thinking and a lot of public company requirements on them that make them go slow it is great being nimble in the fact we can do something overnight and do it really quickly not without a lot of things in the way. Of course we don't have the money to do everything about it. So that's a limiting factor. So truly what I'm seeing is big. Companies recognized that some of their best innovation is gonNA come from investing in and buying smaller companies. That are starting up on their own and you see more and more now. Large companies having large investment the funds and venture funds even like Campbell's and Kellogg and coke and Pepsi and pepper-seven-up they're all making investments in startups. Because they say you take the the risk and if you make it and we'll help you a little bit then we might be a partner in and that's a new innovation approach that I didn't experience where I was leading innovation at -sarily. It was all in house. Didn't look at all the little scrappy things out there. So that's an interesting crossover happening that I'm seeing more and more of we were in fact in three of US invited to speak. GM executive which grocery manufacturer association on the topic of how little brands are kind of outrunning big brands. Right now and it was a really interesting engagement to be there with the CEO's of companies and hear their questions. So I would say those are some of the big things. There's also one more thing like like to share. which is there's a group out there now? Called naturally network and it's naturally network DOT COM on boulder began group years ago called naturally boulder with with the intent to create an ecosystem of natural and whole an healthier food products and support them with retail and distribution. Bencher money money and things like that. There's now chapters and five cities there's one in Chicago now too and I'm on the board of Naturally Chicago but the point is that there's now these infrastructures is being built to help nurture these startups being on what they can do in their own way. And that's all new infrastructures coming that I think large companies these need to be part of. That's phenomenal to your point in the retail environment in particular. There's there's still moats right. Yeah trying to get on shelf Somewhere convince some buyer right willing to take a risk on you right so they're still are real real moat especially when you're selling a product that I'm sure you ship. A lot of product product but products that are are wet products are at the shipping costs or not that attractive. Really that beverage wouldn't be DST now there's an increasing increasing acceptance of warehouse come into directly to the retailer. You know to that end Alan. There's an interesting phenomenon going on which is for a number of years that I've been working on this brand grande. We've seen the legacy brands especially in the still juice and soft drink aisles. Just pay the retailer for their space and the retailers protected that space right but now retailers realizing it stagnant space and eroding profits so even Walmart in the last year has taken to. She stepped out of its own comfort zone and attend conferences to tell small businesses if they want to create a better working relationship so they don't miss out on a small brands growth so they are cutting in a big section and reducing some there stagnant areas to create room for some the brands like ours in the coming years. So it's been a big change for the retailer to think differently about you. Know I'm not just going to pocket the payments for the real estate. I've got to actually make money. Yeah on the square footage rich and it's important to make a change when they need the excitement of those new products to for their customer. Yes hold otherwise the retails GONNA lose. So that's awesome. We'll I WANNA pivot a little bit and we loved getting to know the person behind the topics we cover on this show and I love this question. which is is there? An experience of your past ask defines our makes up who you are today. It's a really interesting question about whether it's one experience right. I guess I would say that. It's more a series of experiences that has made me a real advocate for women in diversity in business and in a way that is about how our points of view ad to strategy add growth. Solve problems in a more holistic way when combined with the men who lead and I want to emphasise this is both diversity and women today. Only thirty percent of public company boards have a woman or diverse personnel on them which is not representative of the population. So I would say over the years ears. You know I've experienced my share of what I felt were somewhat diminished responses in environments. Where I was the only woman in a C. Suite Bro on a lot of years and and it shaped me to be both appreciative of what I was learning from men in the men mentors that were I was working with but also to recognize what was missing and I think that may sound like an odd question to answer? Answer your question but when you realize that you're bringing point of view and you're the only voice you have to be very conscious of it and I think that that's been something that has shaped me throughout my career. I spent the first fifteen years the only woman executive in seniors senior staff. And and that's a long time to be alone. Yes but it was good learning learning and I have to say largely positive. There have been my moments. I could tell stories but it's still still too few and when you have a diverse leadership team can get better results. It's been proven so that's it. I appreciate sharing the and I know I know you've had your moments. We work together on a compensation study last year. I heard the story about you going and asking realizing some due diligence effort you were being underpaid and may underpay going in and asking for your fair share and I think those lessons definitely shape a person I love the fact and I don't I wanna make light of this. We started started the conversation this way but you have always found a way it seems to turn that into a positive and capitalize on the right and I I love that perspective. I wish I could do more of that myself. Frankly I tell myself all the time. Complaining gets nothing done. I mean if you're GONNA do some if you're going to have a problem have solution and that sounds so simple but when people wind just say them what would you do about it. Go to something about it right and it takes courage sometimes and sometimes boy you get deaf ears for what you're trying to suggest site but it's still important if if you care enough to be upset about it you gotTa do uh-huh well what what feels you what keeps you going besides aspire healthier to drink. Actually I'd say there's three things one is truly truly this new learning curve journey. I'm on as an entrepreneur. I mean I have been blessed by a lot of people helping me on this journey and teaching new things and introducing me to fascinating people like next week I get to go. Have dinner with Sally Krajicek who is a CEO investment banking on Wall Street. I'm having dinner with Shag Tobacco Walla. That a lot of officer Sir. Yeah but he's also been an amazing leader over the years. I've had time to cultivate new thinking. And that's been really fueling me and and my curious mind but the other thing is when you're not to per nerd though you work hard it more flexible life. So I've had more time to devote to friends and family and my niece nephew view my significant other son and my one of my best friend's son now live within a mile and a half of me so I though I didn't have my own children I have kids in and out of the house eating being and doing laundry and having shenanigans of all kinds all the time and it is so energizing and they're the ones I'm asking the questions of what's next. What matters to you and and of course there are people I just love with all my heart? So that's been really fueling me and then my friends who each have so many interesting things to bring to the way I think in I'm I'm learning and when we're busy when we got eighteen hour days we just don't have time to go deep and it's almost like I've gotten to know my old friends a lot better in the last five years so those are the things that are feeling is fantastic fantastic to more marketing questions for years. Marketers tend to be in. You are naturally curious. We already covered. Ah Are there any brands or companies or causes that you think others should be taking notice. Oh well we touched on a couple of them but I will sound the brand front. Anyone who listening WHO's currently managing really large brands and Co has come to think of that Sea of new stuff out there is being irrelevant. Put a couple of days on your countered go immerse herself whether it's attending a naturally Chicago breakfast store or a event that's dedicated to early. Stage companies doing their pitches. I mean really really immerse yourself in learning that there are brands out there. Doing highly sustainable food strategies a healthier cleaner ingredient products makes the whole space around. Plastics is a real issue that major companies are dealing with right now and small companies are able to create packaging from from now. Now that is not going to be harmful to the environment and the ideas. You'll learn even if you don't end up saying wow those are brands I wanNA bring into my company are really important. PITCH TENSION TO I've watched with great interest Denise Morrison leaving Campbell's yeah and now there's new CEO faced with the same issue of the dinosaur of canned soup. One of the most amazing. Innovators in Chicago has a company. Called Skinny swooping and it is off fresh creative and flavors it can be consumed cold or hot. It's sustainable packaging. So even big old legacy categories can be reinvent so when you ask what I'm really paying attention to now that I have this different different perspective. I really am saying a lot of fascinating things the woman who founded simple mills which is gluten free cakes crackers and flowers hours. They're made out of almonds and keen want a variety of other Greens. She's identified as healthier and better for you but they are really good products walks in her company's growing so much but again look to those brands to see where the innovation is that has been held back by big companies because they didn't think they could do it. You know I think that's a space on the cost front already said I. I really spent a lot of time. Mentoring I particularly like to help young people get a good start but I'm also very passionate about health causes. I'm involved in the go red for women. American Heart Association campaign because people don't realize heart disease is the number one cause of death from in America. Not to end this on a Debbie Downer. Okay but there's so much we can do to get that word out and then help people become more tuned in to what it takes to have a nice long healthy life and so there's things things that I'm really focused on. Gotcha well last question for you. What do you see the future of marketing? Look like it's going to be really interesting. Isn't it for one thing. I we're already we seeing a convergence of CMO CIO somewhat CTO as technology becomes far more virtual. There's not going to be the need for the wires tires and buttons people right. So it's GonNa be more about conceiving environments and networks in which businesses can operate the whole space around and a I- augmented reality. All the stuff we keep throwing out about Iot right. Every bit of that is going to be driven by consumers humor's in a new experience environment. They're going to drive it like they are now a social but it's going to shift into far far more in technically capable infeasible bowl areas that marketers need to follow them into and they're going to need to follow them into it with a GM and talent because it's not going to be just about how do I position -sition my brand is someone who's working in an augmented reality environment like an office Max. Right office supplies paper ink and toner are going to be entirely irrelevant relevant. And they're sixty five percent of sales at those companies. Okay so it's how to understand how to position yourself as a business business right inside those spaces. It's not just we're g us what stories you telling the things that are important certainly but it's going to require there to be more GM mind for sumo's and marketers going forward. I also think that we absolutely have to stop struggling to let go of the legacy marketing approaches. You know it still kills me. There are people who spend so much money traditional media protests that they keep saying well they're still have large reach. Yeah they do but it's not a meaningful one. It's not customer. Experience is not customer customer engagement. I'd rather have twenty people engage directly with right now than twenty thousand. Who Don't care right so I just think those are the to areas? It's like how are we gonNA mold ourselves into being business managers to get where the customers with our products and power going to do that using tools that we just just have to make ourselves smarter about. I love it will thank you for coming on the show. It's been a joy for me too I. I'm honored to be here. Alan and thank you for letting me show the stories I. It's Alan again. Marketing today was created and produced by. If you're new to marketing today please feel free to write us a review on Itunes or your favorite listening platform. Don't forget to subscribe and tell your friends and colleagues about the show. I love to hear from listeners. And you can contact me me at marketing today. PODCASTS DOT COM. There you'll also find complete show notes links to anything we talk about. On any episode you can also archives. I'm Alan Heart than this does marketing. Today's podcast is brought to you by audible. You can get a free audio download and Thirty Day free trial at audible trial dot com slash. Alan and Alan Ellen is spelled A. L. A. N. for those that don't know again audible trial dot com slash Allen.
Episode #22: Ban The Box Redux Alan Crivaro
"Here it comes again lunch. Lippi the same old same old or you ready to take a vacation from the ordinary with a new Jamaican jerk Turkey sub at firehouse subs freshly sliced smoked Turkey breast crave ably sweet mustard sauce and a hint of Carribean seasoning just five fifty five remedium save time order the new Jamaican Jerk Turkey sub on the firehouse subs APP firehouse subs enjoy more subs save more lives participating locations limited time only plus tax prices may vary delivery. You're listening to workplace perspective and Employment Law podcast presented by Sapphire legal perspective is a regular podcast series for employers and employees. He's focusing on education training and the law to help organizations of all sizes develop and maintain successful workplace relationships. The opinions expressed by guests on workplace perspective do not necessarily reflect those of Saphire legal or it's attorneys egg should not be considered legal advice and now here's your host founder and principle attorney at Sapphire Legal Theresa McQueen. Thank you James and welcome everyone to workplace perspective respective where we are striving to raise the bar at workplaces everywhere today. We're sharing with you. A replay of a terrific interview from one of our earliest shows in October of two thousand Seventeen California enacted A._B.. teno eight California's latest westbound box legislation one month later Orange County criminal defense attorney Alan Cavero and I sat down to talk about analyzing criminal conviction histories from both the criminal law and Employment Law perspectives this was an incredibly well received show and and we're really excited to share it with you once again so stay with us as we focus on how the statute impacts not only employers looking to fill vacant positions but applicants who may have trouble background histories. It's going to be a great show. Don't go away. We'll be right back. <music> Allen is going to be talking about the newly fine assembly bill and eight which is California's latest ban the box legislation relation aimed at preventing discrimination in employment name on it. Applicants are no condition history what we get started talking about the new statute talent. Why don't you tell our listeners about your background and your current law practice her? My pleasure play had the privilege of serving twenty eight years in the Orange County public defender's office as a senior deputy public defender during that time I had many Misdemeanor Ansari's felony trials I also had a good deal of appellate practice which allowed me to argue for our California Fourth District Court of Appeal and our California Supreme Court presently I'm in private practice locally in Newport and snow represent individuals accused of crimes in last few years as we've had changes in our legislation. I have represented people have suffered convictions addictions but also now seek dismissal of the same from the records. I also have gained a lot of experience in this area of serving on the administration of Justice Committee for Orange County bar there. We have the opportunity to review many of the judicial council also forms that are used for sealing records and dismissals prior to the release to the public by the Council well clearly Alan. You are the PRACA gas to talk with us about this new legislation start went out and I are going to give everyone a bit of an overview of the statutes beginning with some background history on California's ban the box legislation we all and take the opportunity to Allen to give it the benefit of his criminal lock Syrian as we discussed some of the more specific aspects of the new law. I'm going to start with some background originally housed in it's twenty thirteen California's Art van of off legislation which was eighty to eighteen applying the state agencies city and county governments as well as charter cities and counties and special districts in California in two thousand fifteen federal agencies were also directed Iraq. Did you ban the box with provisions against asking applicants about convictions on initial applications tale about thirteen over twenty nine states and one hundred and fifty plus cities across the nation have adopted these van the vauclause nine nine states and cities across the U._S.. Apply down the box laws to both private and public sector employers according to statistics provided by the nearly one in three adults in California have an arrest or conviction record efficient impair their ability secure employment experts have also found that securing employment house conviction reduce recidivism research also shows that individuals with conviction records who secure employment tend to have lower rates of turnover and higher job promotion race high above that was a great statistic to sit and personal contact with potential employers has proven to reduce the negative stigma of convictions by approximately fifteen percent this new statue amend section twelve nine five two of the Government Code and repeal section four three two viewpoint nine of the California Labor Code and takes effect January twenty eighteen. Let's take time out of on the specific of the Duchy and how it impacts not only employers looking to fill vacant positions the applicants. You may have trouble background history. Why don't you let everybody know what second hand is? This does not apply sure shoot states that it is unlawful employment practice court employer with five or more employees to do do certain acts so we know clearly by the statue. If you're an employer and you have five or more employees this is going to apply to you we go on and it also does not apply to these special circumstances number one if the employee has. A position which he's filing for with the state or local agency that is required by law to conduct a conviction history background check then it's not going to apply for instance as an example when I was deputy public defender this particular intersection because I was a county employee it would've applied to me but for private employers it does not apply right now in other exception is a physician with a criminal justice agency as defined by the Penal Code that would be someone such as a police officer Sir <hes> firemen or perhaps even deputy sheriff another position that it would not have why to it'd be the farm labor contractor as defined by the Labor Code and we also have a positions where in a voyeur or an agent is required by any state eight federal or local law to conduct criminal background checks for employment purposes or to restrict employment based on criminal history clearly. That would be an example that if you're going to apply or the F._B._i.. As a federal employees it would apply those are the four four exception and again if you're employer with five or more voice this allies to you catch it really makes some significant changes to the employee selection process. The hatchet itself makes it an unlawful employment practice <unk> ask questions on an employment avocation that would disclose applicants criminal conviction history. This is a big change lor to inquire about or consider an advocates criminal conviction history including hacking for that history on an application and we need all that prohibited after a conditional offer planet has been named that's right it really makes an unlawful employment practice to do several the following one it would be to consider distributor disseminate information while conducting not a criminal history background check with these following items things that you may not do our interest which was not followed by a conviction except in very limited circumstances set for by section four three two point seven labor goat wrote those specifically our number one. If it's an employer at a health facility you may ask the prospective applicant about conviction or arrest with regard to the health and safety code those are specifically drug related arrests and conviction fiction they also asked certain applicants with regard to their arrest record if they have ever been arrested of section two ninety of the Penal Code Section two ninety of the Penal Code is a laundry list if you will <hes> particular either criminal violations both Misdemeanor and felony that have to do with sexual offenses another large category that is accepted that you may not ask about our any referrals or participation in pretrial or post trial crowd diversion program in California for many years. The classic example is someone is arrested for a possession of narcotic offense. He could be cocaine. It could be an opiate. It could be even something like methamphetamine infamy in that particular situation and individual can go to court if their record under certain circumstances clean the court will offer to them that if they wished to plead guilty they may be placed on probation and they go overseas counseling on the completion of counseling and testing at that point if they have done with the quotas asked they will be considered diverted and the court will withdraw the plea of guilty and it will be taken off the record so in those those particular cases which we see quite a few of you may not ask about those type of diversion programs final category convictions that have been sealed dismissed expunge or statutorily eradicated. That's not really something nothing all that new because those were also on the not to ask this under the Labor Code in the first place so a couple of exceptions however we do have is there is no prohibition on interfering restraining or or denying the rights it turns out that your conduct background checks with other California governing criminal background checks in other words are few exceptions that are beyond what will be talking about which you may conduct those in so in that particular case there is no exception in that one thing however that could come up is that this particular section also does not apply to someone who is on bail pending in other words criminal charges is filed the individual individual goes to court they have what's called an arraignment the first appearance in which they man or a plea of not guilty and they may seek a trial or other types of things for the court the Court may place them on AOL or their own reconnaissance meaning. They have to return turn violate the wall. An employer is not forbidden under this statute to ask about those situation and I think that's really significant and a great point that you also introduces a few additional fasten an employer must tanking intense to deny nine applicant a position fully or in part because of the Africans criminal conviction history how the hatchet says specifically Nanan employer quote must make individualize assessment of whether the applicants conviction history has a direct an <unk> adverse relationship with specific duties job that justified denying the applicant's position unquote that is tremendously significant and probably has enough everybody wondering how the heck do you do that and no doubt in his meeting supersized the statute provides health. Yes there are really three specific areas that statue specifically provides for and really when we go through you'll see I think that they are really common sense. The legislature is trying to find a balance for an employer royer so that the employer does not get an employee whose conduct in the future if hired will be detrimental to the employer that is balanced out with the fact that many people in California have committed offenses and. That's not the justify the violation of penal code or health safety but when they're younger or other parts of life that committed an offence they have done with the court has asked times past and here the employer has an opportunity to really you get a great employee so the three items that really employer needs to look at are going to be the nature and gravity of the fence or conduct to the time that has passed the offense or conduct and the completion of that sentence and three the nature of the job held or sought so you can see that in many cases as an employer is looking at as we call it the criminal rap sheet that is the conviction history and they see that an individual was <hes> has violated the law and has a conviction say something like a grand theft penal code section four eight seven. You'll merely see the penal code number that does not tell you a thing about the underlying facts of the crime or what has happened since that and this is what the legislature is telling you to take a look at all right and according to this hatching once the employers conducted this individualized assessment using these factors and they've made a preliminary decision that the criminal conviction history disqualifies the applicant they have to notify the applicant of their preliminary decision in writing now there are things as his notice half to include her a have to include notice of the disqualifying conviction or convictions that the basis for the preliminary decision to resent the off the employer can but it's not required to justify or explain their reasoning for making the flu missionary denial or qualification it also needs to include a copy of the conviction history jury report is the employer has won. It has to include an explanation of the applicants rights respond to the notice of the employers luminary decisions for that decision becomes final and then it has to include a deadline by which response the notice Otis also has to include a notification to the applicant at the applicant can include mission of evidence challenging accuracy the conviction history that is the basis harm ascending the offer. There's a time element associated with a notice and Allen. Can you explain how that works. Yes applicants have five business days respond on receiving this notice if they notify the employer within this five day period that they wished to dispute the accuracy of the criminal conviction report report they receive an additional five business days. She respond to provide contrary evidence. Now that's important. I'll give you an example of something recently that happened with a client of mine he was applying for an Internet cloud service as a programmer they used an out of state supplier to run the criminal convictions and we all know that we've seen many of those that are advertised on the Internet and it popped up that he had a conviction in federal court in Chicago six years ago while the client client of course was very disturbed because he never been to Chicago much less out of conviction federal court so by having this additional time we were able to get the true rap sheet from California and clear up and show that although the individual Oh have the same individual reportedly having that conviction in Chicago in federal court may have had the same I lasted middle name. He clearly had a different date of birth and that was not my client as a result. You can see that the employer by having this opportunity getting the time we were able to give that contrary evidence to the employer which resulted in my client the employees ending the employment so finely if the applicant's evidence to dispute the conviction is this report as we did in this case the employer is required to consider the evidence before making any final decisions and then the next thing that you have to do for an employers perspective according to these dancing after you hear nothing from the applicants after having giving being on this preliminary notice or after you've received additional information defeating the conviction report then the employer can make its final decision. If at this stage the final decision is to deny the applicant that position the employer has a second notification requirement the second notification requirement makes it mandatory that the employer gives the applicant notice of its final decision again in writing this notice have to include the final decision or disqualification which the employer may but is not required to justify or explain the reason behind making the final decision or the default vacation. You have to provide any existing procedure that you as an employer may have for the African to challenge challenged decision or request a reconsideration the final thing you have to notify the applicant of use their right to file a complaint with the Department of Fair Employment and housing that is the statue in a nutshell. Um We're GONNA take a quick break and when we come back more thoughts from Alan on ban the box compliance and some unique takeaways for employers employees and applicants stay with us. 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Talk Radio Streaming screaming. We hope you're enjoying this special replay of our ban the box interview with attorney Alan Carraro to hear more of these interviews including our latest please visit at our website at Sapphire legal dot com slash podcast and now back to Alan Alan in looking more specifically at the statue. There are a lot of things that jump out at me is really concerning health from an applicant perspective and the employees perspective but let's start with this requirement to naked individ- live assessment that we talked about weird. Is it employer even start given the factors I get why did the factors in there. It makes perfect extend even having those factors in their employer start. Let's start with the definition to help everyone out. Exactly what are we talking about. What a conviction is and this notion of conviction history recall earlier? We discuss all of the things that you cannot ask about the arrest of the didn't result in convictions the diversions the convictions that have been dismissed all of those off the list what is on the last is a convection in a conviction shen the definition is not something new for employers in the sense that this new legislation uses the same definition as we find in the earlier Labor code deal on the books and then that is a conviction includes a plea verdict or finding guilty and it doesn't matter whether the sentence has been imposed by the court again you can ask about arrests for which the employee is out on bail or his own recognizance ending the trial and another thing to recall all of that in California if someone has had a sustained petition as he juvenile five juvenile court meaning that they were eighteen years or under that is not considered a conviction so if a half something that accidentally shows up on the record which shouldn't but sometimes does by the juvenile court meaning they were eighteen years or younger that is not a conviction so what you're going to find is that again looking at the nature and gravity the time that has passed the nature of the job as I said before a lot of times the things that the employer will be provided with conviction but it will simply say hey penal code number and it will not tell the employer a thing about the fact though let's run through a real easy example and see how simply knowing the number is not enough to solve this problem that has been put forth that is how serious was this doesn't really relate to the jump and example sample. Let's say for instance a banking institution the seeking tellers obviously would certainly find it relevant to know that a candidate for employment had been convicted of felonious grand theft of money five years earlier when they were employed as a cashier for for a retail outlet now in the last few years California defines basically grand theft that is the taking of goods or money or services in the amount of nine hundred fifty dollars or more anything under nine nine hundred fifty dollars is now considered a petty theft and then it's been raised in the last three or four years so in contrast consider the same perspective employer that they've learned the candidates had been convicted for felonious grand theft only to find find out that the conviction was based on the fact that the candidate in two other girlfriends went shoplifting for a couple of pairs of expensive jeans and cosmetics from the local shopping mall. When they were eighteen years old? You could shreve affected make a great difference in how one would look at that perspective applicants. I think that's important for people to understand that those limits have changed over the year and each subsequent change in the law what used to be an offense in all of a sudden not an offense anymore or what it was before isn't as serious as it is now and I think that's really challenging for employers who was particularly true with Arcata ca fits California in the last couple of years things with that had been felonies for. Let's say almost one hundred years in our state suddenly have become misdemeanors so the legislature does not use simple possession of methamphetamine heroin opiates particularly marijuana as serious offense in the same way that they used to just a couple of years ago. There are many ways in which individuals can go and take that off the record that will discuss just a moment about this in preparing for today's talk doc. There's the California Code of regulations and I forget the section number but it states that the time that's passed is really important because if you're trying to use a conviction I believe it's seven years or older. Vote is correct yeah if you're using a conviction that seven years or older. There's this presumption that that's not good enough so as an employer you WANNA keep that in mind. They're trying to save exactly what you've been talking about it. If it's too old hangs likely change and that condition probably doesn't need we now that's correct. That's really to cal Code Regulation Section One one zero one seven and that provides for seven years. I can tell you from experience with Perio- court judges is that traditionally we've used anywhere from seven but usually ten years as a washout period is what it's called so an individual picked up a grand theft of they've been off probation now for seven to ten years. They let a lawful life. It was their only offence. The court is more likely to withdraw that plea and seal that record and that's what we call that washout period and the reason is there's a lot of research pointing that unfortunately young people eighteen through twenty five their brains are still developing. They are not able to foresee the serious consequences that violations of the law could happen. Everybody knows us when they're in college or high school age. We've all done things that we look in the past and say my God what was what was I thinking. The legislature is now taking that into account and saying what these people did something foolish when they were young they I really didn't think through it was nonviolent. Let us give them a second chance. Ten years past their now adult and let's really take a look now that they've grown up how they're contributing to the community we should not forbade them for the rest of their life recovering a valuable member of our working community and that's really the logic behind I agree and in anticipation of the building sign I had been advising some of my employer clients to start looking now at all of their job description into start making some of these initial assessments about the types of convictions that would likely disqualify an applicant like you've just got so depending on the circumstances someone with let's say a fraud conviction would likely be disqualified from holding the position Shen of Bank Keller depending again on the circumstances but I think at least thinking ahead and sort of conducting this type of assessment is going to go a long way in helping an employer to sort of short circuit any claims of discriminatory hiring practices because there are some something that you have to determine on the spot at the time but if you've already been thinking about it and you looked at the serious things that would prevent someone they absolute obvious things then you really go along way toward not making impulsive decisions. You've already got it through which is really what the statutes about as an employer being able to show that they have thought about it. They looked into it. They've considered the job versus conviction. How is this realistically going to impact it and that's really the statute is wanting them to do so? What are the things I find concerning about? The statute is a timeframe for the applicant to respond now. I can't imagine that there's much an applicant can do in essentially Hyndai's time to fix if anything they have initially five days to respond if they want to challenge the preliminary decision not to give them the job and then once they notify the employer that they get an additional five days overall looking at ten days. What can somebody do in that anything realistic or that really earliest kind of short and unless the client really has paperwork or information that they have kept all of the years the really isn't a lot to do for instance? The timeframe is really too short or an applicant to seek judicial remedy such was the dismissal example due to the backlog. It's been created it can take up to six to eight weeks or longer in many counties for individuals to petition and for the court to order dismissal of a conviction I could be something thing is simple as a petty theft a drug conviction. It's kind of automatic but it's a backlog thing it can take up six to eight weeks. It will take you in a few weeks longer because the court will immediately notify the California Department of Justice and they will change that rap sheet criminal history and it will take a little bit longer for that to be affected and that's exactly what the employers you're looking at. A thing to remember also is that wherever the conviction was sustained that is the county only in which the crime occurred and the defendant was since that's the county in which an applicant has to seek judicial relief so that can add additional time to what's going to happen because sometimes it's done by mail or trying to Mike Counsel so there's a lot of difficult things that come that ten days. That's the minimum I see nothing in the law that if an employer was really interested in an applicant that they can't grant them longer ten days is the minimum by law that has that'd be done to fulfil the requirement and that's really too short for people to do things. That's a really good point net. This is a minimum statutory requirement and you're right. There's actually nothing that says that they can't do one last point on that my best advice allies to any applicant who maybe perspective employees who's listening to us today is it's never too soon to seek relief in other words even before you're considering looking for a job contacted attorney or fit that repetition in and seek judicial relief if you're entitled to it because you know it's going to take a couple of months to do it. Start now before you apply I've had situations where employers are more than willing finding out that the employee because already taken time to file a petition in court they will grant them that extra time to see if the court dismisses it meaning that if a court dismisses it that they can't consider it in the criminal history and as far as the employer is concerned. The individual individual has a clean criminal history so start now don't wait. That's absolutely great advice especially. If you know there might be something there now if the applicant does provide an employer with evidence either documentation or an explanation into something in connection history. Are there any red flags from your experience than an employer should be looking for yes many times we will find that the candidate really doesn't have accurate documentation to provide to the employer. It's not that common that the client will have police reports which would certainly clear up the matter that the employer could read to see how serious or non series the matter might have been <hes> guilty. Guilty plea forums on the other hand do contain statements of the offense but I found a lot of times clients. Don't have that in our age of computers now many times you get that information directly from the court particularly the guilty plea form the type hype of Sin Another thing that I've been asked my clients to do that if they will waive the attorney client privilege. I'm happy to provide a letter to the employer or the attorney who handle the matter usually has the appropriate documentation and to provide to the employer so the employer. There's nothing to say once we get to the appropriate time frame that you know Mr employer you may speak to my attorney or my attorneys happy to provide you with anything anything that you need to clear this matter up and usually I found that the employers are very grateful for that kind of information it saves them time it saves them money and it puts them in a position where they can really evaluate the things that are required org but stitch in when we spoke earlier you also mentioned that you were getting a number of clients hauling you to say hey hi put it in application for this job. There's a problem with my criminal physician history and the employers willing to wait for me and that's been the trend that they see employees that they really really want and but for the fact that they have this one thing on their criminal history they would instantly hire them so they're willing to wait to see if things could be cleared up in court and ninety nine out of one hundred times. It's successful. I'm so happy to hear that I think it's just a terrific trend and I'm hoping that the statute really does have the long term effect that the legislation intense now now before we wrap things up for today. What are some other takeaways from today's program that you think people should be aware of? I think number one from the perspective employs point of view. If you have a criminal conviction on your record right now check with an attorney or a local public defender in the county in which you sustain that conviction you may be eligible to take advantage of judicial relief such as this missile perhaps the ceiling of record and you should do so immediately. Don't wait to see employment do it immediately from the employer's point of view if the conviction history is the only thing standing in the way of hiring a candidate really take our close along look those factors of three factors that are listed by the statute again the nature in gravity. It's one thing to go in and steal a carton of cigarettes from the target and in those days it might have been on your record showed that you had a commercial burglary. It's quite another situation that someone goes into the very same store four and clean them out for hundreds of thousands of dollars of merchandise. How long is the time that's passed between that again? People change over time they become more serious. They get married. They have children responsibilities and things let's call them sins of our youth we grow up and we change and that's something really take into a look that if you've gone ten or more years and you haven't had those same problems more likely than not this was an aberration your life and then again the nature of the job if you're going to be someone who is not handling money and you're going to be driving a truck. The question is does it really matter if F- at the time you stole a candy bar when you were nineteen years old or that pack of cigarettes. Is that really something that's related to your skills drive cross country to do other types of jobs to be working construction probably not so the relationship of the underlying facts would support a conviction and the nature of the position you seek to hire someone is extremely important as I say many times you'll find by going behind that penal code or or health and safety code number or business and professions code number there really is no logical relationship so not condoning behavior violation of any laws of California but the best way is to really take a look at those underlying correct goes through my takeaway well. I really love your perspective on all this and I so appreciate you coming on. I want to thank you for being on today's podcast sharing your expertise and your experience with our listeners really gave some terrific insights and some Mary helpful information has been my privilege. I certainly hope that helps all of our listeners out there. We hope you've enjoyed our special replay and thank you again to Alan Carraro. If you'd like to learn more about Alan Cafaro and his law practice please visit our website at Sapphire legal dot com slash Josh podcast and click on either of our ban the box episodes I want also thank our listeners for joining us my radio angels James and the nave at night and workplace perspectives team extraordinaire our engineer and producer Paul Robert with music provided by the very very talented Stephen Barcelona until next time. Keep raising the bar hi it's Jamie Jamie Progressive's employee of the month two months in a row leave a message at the Hi Jamie. It's me Jamie I just had a new idea for our song about the name your price tool so when it's like tell us what you want to pay hey and the trombone goes Blah Blah Blah and you say we'll help you find coverage options into pitcher budget then we just all do finger snaps while a choir goes savings coming at Ya savings coming at you. 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Alan Yang on Tigertail, Master of None and more
"Bullseye with Jesse. Thorn is a production of maximum fund dot org and is distributed by NPR. I'm Jesse Thorn Bullseye Movie Hitting Net flicks. This month. It's called tiger. Town focuses on a father and his daughter. There's the Father Grover. He's played by the time he was born in Taiwan moved to the. Us As a young adult is quiet reserved and stubborn his daughter. Angela is played by Christine. Co. She was born in the US and despite the challenges they have connecting with each other a lot more in common than either would like to admit the film follows drovers life story when he came to the US what it was like what he left behind and the pain that he carries with him. It's a moving beautiful film written and directed by my guest. Alan Yang Allen is ordinarily accommodate writer. He was a longtime writer and producer on parks and recreation. He Co created the show master of and the Amazon comedy forever. Tiger tail is the first film. He's written and directed and even though it's highly fictionalized. The story it tells is deeply personal. Yang's parents are Taiwanese immigrants themselves. And he said that making this film brought him closer with his parents and their culture. That's listened to a little bit from Tiger tail in this scene. Angela has just picked up grover from the airport. She's learned her. Father has been in Taiwan in that. Her Grandmother has died. I'm sorry about grandma thank you. You're right I know this is a hard time for you but I really wish you had told me about the funeral. It was a small ceremony. She was my grandmother. You didn't really know never visited the last time you were in. Taiwan was when I took you on your brother when you were kids. It's true it's a long trip and I know you busy work Alan. Welcome to Bullseye. It's very nice to have you on the show. Thank you so much for having me head you before you made. This film ever sat your parents down and ask them about their experiences. I mean not just their immigrant experiences but maybe their experiences before you are alive not very often basically basically when I started thinking about writing this movie. Those conversations started become much more frequent because they were at a zero or near zero level before that and they weren't exactly offering up a bunch of stories from their past themselves. It is a kind of a weird thing. One of my close member of my family is an immigrant and shit very difficult time where she grew up and like those things that I know about her experience. They are either jokes that she told funny stories that mostly about trauma and like occasionally my dad would tell me something and you just kind of like like back channels. Yeah definitely oscillates between like one little colonel like Oh yeah like. There's a picture. My Dad like clearly in a military uniform was like. Oh yeah what's going on there. He's like Oh yeah. It was hard. It's like Oh you were the army. Never told me about that like you're standing next like a military jeep But yeah it's either that or really not that much and I think you know. Maybe the exception is some other. Parents will brag about the hardships. They went through but my parents didn't really do much of that. They just kind of just didn't mention it and I knew for a fact how wildly different their experiences growing up. Were from my own in America. But I really didn't know what they were exactly. How did it manifest itself in your life when you were a kid and a teenager that their experiences were so different from yours? I just knew they were fact because I I knew the rough outlines which is that. My Dad's dad passed away when he was a year old and he was raised by a single mother and she didn't have the resources to take care of all of them so when he was a baby everyone in the village told her to give him up for adoption and literally give him away but she was really stubborn. One of the most stubborn people in the world and she wanted to keep them so she temporarily gave him to correlative Z- in the rice fields and so he lived out there for a while he was a kid then he came back. I know that you that she worked in a factory. That's about it and I knew that all of those hardships that my dad went through were so different from my life because I was like. I want to say genesis and I can't get one and this is the worst thing ever happened that was like easily and then later on. I gotTa Sega Genesis. So even that wasn't very very long struggle but yeah it it it it it You know I just knew. There was a difference. It was both generational and cultural. I think our lives were so different and I think I don't want to over generalize because every family is different but there is I think a trend in some Asian families for there to be a very clear delineation between parents and children. It's not like your buddies. It's not like you're hanging out. I wasn't telling them about dates. I went on and they weren't telling me about dates. They went on as younger people so I think it was. It was the same. You know. It's the same both sides I think. Sometimes people feel weird or guilty about the fact that they weren't as interested in their parents lives when they were kids or teenagers because kids and teenagers tend to be solid. Cystic but I mean it's also like you're when you're trying to figure out who you are. It seems reasonable to me to be a little miffed that your parents had this grand scale experience. That is just like so much of an easier explanation for why. It's hard to be a young person. You know what I mean. Yeah I it's it's funny. It's like well. I didn't have any struggles. But obviously that's that's an exaggeration but yeah I mean sometimes I think about it. It's like yeah. They had this epic life really crazy experience with legitimate struggles. I mean it's it's it's I think about sometimes the scenes that we shot in the Bronx. Where it's you know. It's too young Asian people in their twenties. Who are just learning English. And they're walking around the Bronx in the seventies and they look around and all the faces are white black and Brown. There's very few Asian people and they were struggling to make ends meet and that is just an incomprehensible struggle to me. That is a very Very specific struggle that I haven't seen depict it onscreen number one but number two. You're right that like you know. I'll never go through anything that hard. My parents took care of me and they you know I went to school and then I don't try to get a job and it was. It was just very different and so I it's it's one of the things I'm grappling within the film when you went away to college and you went to Harvard so I I imagine you have been pretty good student in high school a serious student in high school when you went away to college. Did you already intend to have an artistic career? No Way I had no idea that this was a career like this is totally for. This is so alien to anything. I had any inkling of growing up so when I was a kid I love movies. I love TV. You know I wasn't really allowed to watch that much of it until I was probably fourteen or fifteen and then I just started inhaling it to a very unhealthy extent. Or maybe in retrospect healthy extent. Because it it's now my career but yet no one I knew I I grew up side. California which is about an hour and a half from La but is so different from L. A. Sort of spiritually economically socio-economically. In all of those things and so I didn't know anyone who worked in entertainment My parents obviously didn't I didn't know what those names on the screen were when it says executive story editor. Or whatever when you're watching Seinfeld like I don't know what that was. I loved a big blockbuster movies. Drastic Park back to the future. I Love Comedy I love Seinfeld Simpsons SNL. And when I went to college I majored in biology. Because it was like I don't know I kind of equally good at or bad at math and science and the humanities and I felt like if I majored in biology I could still keep a lot of doors open but yeah. I didn't know I was mainly just terrified. I didn't know if I could handle the school academically. I went to a big public school Not that many people went to Harvard or schools like Harvard so my first year at school. I just really wanted to work as hard as I could. Not Fail out so yeah after I managed to to do okay academically the first year. I realized I definitely didn't to work in biology. I worked at a lab for a while and I just didn't like it so I started doing a couple of things. I I always played music so I joined a punk rock band And we would tour on the weekends and we ended up putting a record signing to a small label so that was really fun and got me off campus and then I start writing for a comedy. Magazine called Harvard Lampoon which Which was really sort of an important experience for me because it may be more serious about writing and I really enjoyed the people I met on the Lampoon and they were really smart really funny and that was when it seemed potentially possible to have a career in something creative or artistic because before that point. it was. It was not possible. Were you punk rock as a teenager? Yeah I really was. So one of the things about trump and riverside was like the cool kids weren't like it wasn't like the football team. It was like skateboarders and like kids who listen to Scott Punk so I got really into like third wave sky. Then I got into two tone and and I we've sky and then I listen to some punk and some hardcore and It was really big. It was southern California in the late nineties. Early two thousands and so Yeah it was. It was really big and I bought a fender stratocaster when I was fourteen years old and taught myself like four chords. I was like I can play now. And that's pretty much all I know still so that was it it. Did you have an identity based around punk rock or was it a thing to do? It was a little both. I think you know I- i- occupied a pretty interesting Sort of Taxonomy in in in high school. Because I think I was a little bit of a novelty. There weren't that many Asian kids My school was predominantly White Latino and black and I think you know quite frankly was de facto segregated. So at lunchtime you know in the white kids sat over here and then like a lot of kids. Sad and little black. It's out of here and I was any of those things right so kind of just had you know. Learn to talk to different people and do my best to to to get along with a lot of different kinds of people I remember. At some point there are so few Asian kids at some point A classmate of mine. Who was who happened to be Asian. She she was starting to pass me notes and she would pass me notes in class and you know. I don't know what what the deal is. I think she wanNA hang out or something so she. She passed me no one day. Hey Alan how come at lunch. You never sit at the Asian tree because there's one tree where the Asian kids would say. It was like four kids. I was like well. I wanted to branch out and it was not that not that. I didn't like you guys. I just was trying to trying to meet different people so You know I wasn't ever like super popular in high school but I I also did get along with enough people you know. I played sports a little bit. I played a little bit of soccer. Played a little tennis and You know me and my friends were were were nerdy but not super nerdy so You know we. We had our little niche. And we would go to shows. I remember going to see you know real big fish or like the aqua bats when I was fourteen and so I was like southern California in that time period. Yeah so it was. It was definitely part of my identity but I wasn't any any any one thing. It was like yeah. You know I'd Kinda worked hard. Did Okay in school and and and and also listen to music also play a little sports so it was all the above. I have a buddy named Roman Mars who is Podcast these days so so wonderful. Podcast called ninety nine percent visible and I I remember. Having a conversation with him he had been a very high. Achieving student as a teenager went to college early And was in a PhD program for some kind of evolutionary botany. Or something like that. And he was working in this lab looking at microscopes. I guess and I remember him telling me that there was a moment that he had where he realized that he liked knowing the stuff that scientists had learned that was interesting and satisfying to him but he did not have very much interest in doing the boring years and years and years of testing hypothesis. That was involved in possibly but also possibly not learning something. Yeah you gotTa have patience man. You've gotTa that was essentially my story exactly Roman Mars. We're we're we're to two peas in pod. Because I also went to school early. I went to college early and I just remember being seventeen sitting in the lab. Pipe heading for hours. You know you're pipe bedding for like forty hours a week in addition to go into class as like. I don't know if I WANNA do this anymore. Man I don't WanNa let me explain. Sorry Allen can you explain what petting is other than I presume like a one thousand nine hundred eighty s dance craze by betting is is like you have a you have a tool called pipette that we're you like sucks in a tiny amount of liquid and then transfers it and then you you click on it like a pen? And then you deposit that liquid into another chamber so you're just kind of moving liquid from place to blaze and like you know you do that and you you using a centrifuge. You're using like I literally. I did work in a lab like I do remember this stuff and by the way far more important than what. I'm doing now because people pipe heading are currently going to cure corona virus and meanwhile I made a movie but it's like It really it really is. It really was not for me and so that that That was just I just I just realized it was his personal preference in you know. I'm really glad that that I decided to give it away and and try to do something creative because I really love my job now. Did you feel as though it was a place where you fit not at all not at all? I really had issues freshman year where I was scared. I was kind of like you know these kids went to private schools. And you know it was really can't hack it and then after I I I was able to do okay in these classes. These science classes. I just realized like a because I didn't want to do that like I also didn't feel like necessarily like those kids were my people either and so. I wasn't like a hardcore pre med kit or a hard core math kid or any of those people in by the way. If you're Harvard you know you're hardcore. Premed get those are the most hardcore kids in the country. That really crazy. They're really really good at being premed. Kids so that didn't feel like me either and so. I definitely felt a little bit out of place and and hadn't found Henn found the people I wanted to hang out with and I think that that you know once I got on Poon. I think that really helped. And and and you know again as I mentioned love Kombi and me and my best friends in high school. I love talking about those shows. And so Ultimate kind of cool to to to get on the Lam where where a lot of those writers had actually worked and that was a magazine. I I didn't know existed before I got to school and so it was cool to be able to get on. That's wild you you really. You didn't hear about the Harvard Lampoon till you got to Harvard. I didn't know me I. I guess it sounds like I lived in the backwoods now but really like it did hadn't reached me it had reached me it was You know they they talk about the Illinois Empire where I grew up is sort of like. They called the I. E. And it's like a place that wishes were Orange County. It's like it's not. It's not even more it's like an Orange Gander. That doesn't have the financial resources and Yeah it was not a lot of We're not a lot of people talking about George Plumpton in Riverside California. There wasn't a lot of John. Updike worship In my in my neck of the woods so yeah it was really funny because like I got on staff and it was like people had you know people knew about it in high school or they. They'd read the magazine I was like. I don't know what this guy didn't know if I don't know why I'm here. I don't know how I got on but I'm here in and I'm enjoying it. So did you have to submit something to get in the door. Yeah for sure. It's an intense process. You're right a lot of pieces. Basically right little prose pieces that are like comedy pieces and then and then in my case you don't make it for many semesters so yeah That's that's what ended up happening. I think the staff votes on it you know. And that's how that's how it happened so I got him fairly late and and and when I got on it was just like which is fun for me because I was going to be president of the of the magazine or anything just kind of hanging out and beaten people and trying to be funny so yeah. It was a fun experience for me. It's funny Allen because you're describing with extrordinary in typical southern California. Shell MISS GOING TO HARVARD. Which tanks extraordinary focus and dedication and then deciding to do the most frivolous thing that you could possibly do? Which is you know. Dedicate your life to writing jokes and then getting rejected over and over in order to do it. So what was it that led you to think that you should put in a second submission after you put in the first one? I guess a lot of willpower man I got. I got a lot of actually have a fair amount of confidence in a lot of willpower. So I I wasn't just wasn't just twice. I think they're taking me three or four times. Get on and and when I did the last time I got on the last thing I actually got on. I was like I don't know I don't think magazines very good very funny. I'm just GonNa really phone it in and then I made it so much I really That lasts efficient somehow. Got Shut out of the people who got yacht it really. It really helped us out when you were on that magazine. Did you meet people who were there? Because they intended to use it as a ladder to a career in professional comedy is so many people had in the past. I think some people had that aspiration at some point and I do feel like that was also somewhat frowned upon. It was kind of like I think people didn't like when you were very professional. Obviously there were exceptions. But I think the kind of overarching ethos when I was there was. Let's be here to be here. You know let's be here to have fun and write jokes and like hang out with each other and it was kind of like I think it was kind of seen as kind of gross if you were like networking lot or like trying to like. I'm going to write for whatever after this like it certainly wasn't on my radar and a lot of my friends like on the magazine like. I just don't think we were thinking about it. And it was seen as like it was kind of frowned upon. So I don't know that was just that particular era but you know the turnover. That place is very rapid. Obviously so I think it's probably different from time period of time period. Had you decided for yourself that you were thinking seriously about making a career of it? I think like senior year probably it started becoming real and because I knew I was graduating and it just became really good friends with the other people there and to me that was one of the biggest boons of being on the Lampoon was okay well I can move out to La. I can start writing scripts and joke packets for late night shows and I'll be unemployed and not have any source of income and basically be broken Los Angeles but if I since. I'm on the Lampoon now I might have two or three friends who move out there with me and I can have a roommate or I can have two roommates. And we're all going to be broke and unemployed together and that was really you know it gave me a little bit of Heart. And so that's what ended up happening is. I moved out to La with a couple of friends and we got an apartment and still is a long time ago. Now but I remember going out to L. A. We stayed parents house in Riverside. My Mom's place for a couple like a week or so while we look for apartments and we drove out there. And we got a place on sunset in Fairfax across Mariah aid and it was I paid six hundred seventy five dollars a month and it was like okay. Well now I try to be a writer so yeah it was. Yeah it was a little scary. But you know you're there with your buddy so th that helped. What was the first thing that you got I wrote for a show called last call with Carson Daly? So that was my first job and I'll always be grateful to Carson and everyone on that staff because you know a talk show on at one thirty in the morning and in some ways looking back it was the perfect first job for me because I got to write and I got to get stuff on the air but the writing staff was so incredibly small that we also had to do everything so you know like it was like four writers and so you know these late shows up twenty writers or whatever on that show there were three or four of us and you would write the bid and then you produce it you would cast it. You might act in it. You know you're going to edit it. You're going to sort of make the graphics for doing everything and what a great education and and again. I was lucky enough to to get that job when I was twenty. Two or twenty. Three and and Start from there so it was good was a good education for sure. That is a very strange place to start calming. I don't have anything I think. Carson Daley is a really talented and skilled broadcaster like and always has been and at that show which just ended like a six or six months or a year ago was a very strong Joe. I think but on the other hand if you asked me to make a list of things that Carson Daley is and I am really sincere complimenting him lake. I'm sure but I wouldn't have chosen hilarious. You know what I mean. That's what I'd make some someone somewhere I don't know where vulture or something should do a piece on Carson Daley and his history of fostering comedy writers because no-one knows this but there was a certain period of time where he was trying to do a little bit more comedy. You know. I think he wanted to be able to do a traditional monologue and just sort of learn and so I think he idolized letterman Jimmy Kimmel and so he wanted to try it and so his method of trying was really interesting. He hired really. I thought really excellent comedy writers. And if you look at the history of the writing of that show you will find among others Dan. Goure who co created Brooklyn Nine. You will find Steve Healy who wrote for the office and Thirty Rock and veep. You will find Dave King who wrote for parks and recreation and and and love and you will find just really good comedy writers. I think people don't know that you know just like we were all working there at some point in time and it was an amazing job where I got to live in New York City and we shot in Rockefeller Center. We shot on. Snl stage for for the first half of the week. And what a what an amazing I certainly felt incredibly lucky and Garson was a great boss. Love that guy no complaints. What's the weirdest thing that you wrote for the Carson? Daley show that you're proud of trying to remember. This is not super weird. I'll list off a couple things because they really ran. The gamut one thing was just kind of a regular bit that was like we're always looking for what in late night world they call refillable which is something that you can just kind of do. Every week was basically God. We called it current Events Karaoke. I think it was and so it was like people would sing and I would write lyrics to like a you know. Whatever it was like bird flu was happening or whatever it was and you would write Karaoke. And then we had people from the staff sing it and then years later like Fallon. Basically did that for for his show called. It was called Slow Jim News but he would just himse. I was like Oh. That's basically the same idea same bit. Just write funny lyrics and then right right songs and then do them but we did that bit for a long time. We did that. Bid Over and over again there is also people play on the show. I think at one point this was. I think is a really in some ways. In retrospect probably not a great bit to do because it just disappointed the audience but we did a bit where Carson said. Hey and tonight tonight. Show Shirley's there and we'll be here and people went crazy. It's like yeah while Shirley's there and then when Shirley's there and came out it was it was just one of our writers Steve Healy and who's just like a six foot. Four Irish guy just came out and sat down and the bit was that Shirley's was so deep into character. I think post monster where she was really getting into character. Doing method step. He came out. He's like yeah. You just pretended to be sure. At least they're in the entire interview. And meanwhile you look at the crowd of like random tourists. Where the hell is Shirley's there was just extremely was like the comedy of disappointment. Just a horrible idea as far as wrapping up the crowd. We'll finish up my interview with Alan Yang after a quick break when we come back the actor Jon show both performed in and helped produce tiger tail then Allen. Cut Him from the moving. Yang will tell me what it was like breaking the news to show its Bullseye for Maximum Fund Dot. Org and NPR. You're spending more time at home. Npr's pop culture. Happy Hour is here to help from family. Friendly favorites to stream two recommendations. That will calm your nerves. You've got ideas what to watch what to read what to listen to for both old favorites and new arrivals pop culture happy hour from NPR. Listen and share with your friends. If you're looking for a new comedy podcast. Why don't try the beef and dairy network? It won best comedy at the British podcast. Awards in two thousand seventeen and twenty eighteen. Also there were no horses in this country until the mid to late sixties especially bovine aspects. Both of his is a squids is yoga buffet. She was married to obey confirm who saved her life. Farm raised Snow Lever. Download it today. Thus the beef and dairy network podcasts for maximum fun dot org also maybe start at episode one or widdly absurd thirty six which for some reason requires no knowledge of the rest of the show. You're listening to Bullseye. I'm Jesse Thorn. My guest is Alan Yang. He was a longtime writer on parks and recreation. He created the show master of none and forever. He just wrote and directed his first ever feature film. Tiger tail is streaming now on Netflix ex. Let's get back into our conversation. What what was your first job working on? I don't WanNa say working on something that you are proud because I'm sure you're very proud of your work at every. Stop in your career but one was. When was the first time you worked on his show where you felt like? Oh this is it. This is the thing I was trying to get to do. I think it was probably parks and recreation and that's for a number of reasons I had He did a season on on South Park as well which was really fun and again an amazing education and I love watching Trey Parker and Matt Stone Work but on parks and REC. It was really the first time where I had a lot. More input than I was used to and Mike sure and Greg Daniels who co created that show do really good job of kind of making everyone feel welcome and and sort of allowing them to try to put their stamp on the show and they'll hire young writers who don't necessarily have the most experience and try to teach them along the way and so when I got hired and parks in Iraq. I I was a baby writer. You know called what's in the parlance of the business staff staff writer. Which means you don't really have very many previous credits and I was. You know I was probably twenty five or something when I got hired and it it it. It was quite frankly of a total learning experience and a learning curve and I worked on one hundred twenty five episodes of that show and by the end. I was helping Mike to run the show and I was directing episodes and and and having a lot of input so Yeah that was. That was a formative experience for me. It taught me a lot about not just writing but the producing aspect and and being on set and directing and working with the cast who who I love very dearly so yeah that was that was an incredibly fortunate lucky Happy experience in a really a great memory in my career. I get the impression from having talked to folks who worked on the office in parks and REC and the various tendrils that it has sent out over the years that are really important part of the process on those shows. And it's one that maybe you can see on the screen especially in in parks and REC is putting together a cast of talented and and especially interesting people and then using the writing in story process almost to discover like what is most interesting about those people as performers and like that is true of any Sitcom to some extent but it's it feels to me an outsider pretty central to how parks and recreation came to be what it was. I'd say that's one hundred percent accurate absolutely and I think obviously as writers and as show Creator or show runners. If you get to that point you want to have everything fully fleshed out you want to have it be perfect and you WanNa have you know essentially yeah. I'm going to hire an actor to embody this role but I think a lot of times in comedy and particularly ensemble comedy and comedy of the nature of the you know the kind that parks and REC was. He got to use the people. Get you know you gotta use them into the full extent and if you can tailor your characters if you can adjust if you have the luxury of seeing cuts saying. Oh my God you know. This is what this person does. This is what this person does. Let's let me get to know this person. I mean everything from very early on visiting Nick. Offerman at his woodshop and incorporating woodworking in his character literally. We did that we want to watch. This seems like interesting for the character and or Chris Pratt who was a guest star season one. He was not in the cast he was he was a guest star and it was like you know that character was kind of ridden as a kind of a Jerky guy who was kind of mistreating Rashid. His character a little bit and then it was like wait a minute Chris. Brad is the most likable human being in the world. He's a human golden retriever. No one's ever met him and disliked him. Let's make the character really sort of happy. Go lucky and Cillian likeable and proved to be pretty good decision. So you know you got to you. Got To use what you have you. And by that token by the same token it behooves you to cast the right people and really just find the right people and if that means it's not exactly who you sort of envisioned when you wrote the role then screw the role you wrote. Because you've got this real human being here. A script isn't a thing that people wanna read script. Isn't the finished product a script as a blueprint and you film the real thing with real people and so you gotta use those people and you know very similarly when we did master of none. We had this role written for a friend of Ziza's his character. You know just like a friend character and we didn't. We honestly were open. We're like Alan Jones. You're casting the show. Just send US interesting people and so also is the best her job. She sent us dozens dozens and dozens of people men women all races kind of all ages as well and I believe the first or second person we met was Lena Waif who was mostly a writer at the time she wrote for bones and we're just like Lena's the most interesting person. Forget anything we wrote. Let's just cast her and then make it her and have it be like? Yeah Deva's hanging out with this. This this woman Denise Ledges Make Lena and have talked to Lena and get more about her and and get more about her story and incorporate her into it and you can't fake the fake that on screen. So it's it's a philosophy that I liked to adhere to as well and and You know you you want is sort of used the writing and use the performing in concert with each other and and really have them inform each other when you have the chance to create own show in master of none which you created with us on sorry. Did you have goals yes? We had many many specific goals. One of which was simply that we wanted to shoot it in New York because we like New York so that was part of our as young men creating a TV show together. Like let's do it in your idea was. Let's not have a twenty five episodes a year? Let's do ten so that very very simple goals to start and then on top of that. I think we wanted to be a little bit ambitious with it and do something different and we definitely had a heart to heart and many many sit downs prior to beginning writing that show where we say. Well what's going to make this show different? What's going to make this show special? What's going to make this show ours and feel fresh original and something that catches people's attention and so we really thought about that for a long time and we had the additional very lucky break that We sold the show to net flix and we were green lit to make the show and then parks and rec up picked up for another year so we suddenly had another year to kind of think about it more and honestly if we had made the show a year earlier. I think the show would have been a lot worse because we didn't have very good ideas. We this show we pitch thank you to net flicks for buying it but the show we pitch was like. Yeah it's like he's in New York and he single and like he's hanging out. We didn't have that we had stuff obviously but it just. I don't think was as interesting as what we ended up making ultimately and so yeah so when we finally got our heads together we start talking about a lot of things and some of those things were expanding the perspective to other characters and parents episode was when we talked about very early on. I think that might have been the first or second one. We ended up writing and so That's one that takes place partially for the point of view of our parents and and his base kind of on his parents and my parents story. And Yeah so we kind of went from there. I mean it's funny. I I remember watching that and I was thinking of it as I was watching tiger tail. Because really you know I I remember the two of you doing interviews at the time and saying that kind of what had happened was you. Were you know doing some reflection in order to figure out what what you could do in this show that was supposed to have a personal voice and had characters that were you know stand ins for the two of you in many ways and you realized that you would never have a story like your parents. It would never be that good is essentially you know. We had that little anecdote of my dad killing his pet chicken for dinner because he didn't have enough food to eat and I was like we never have that struggle. Never Never GonNa Happen to us We're we're we're two idiots in a hotel room in New York and we get our own. Tv show like our lives and so that was basically one of the message that we put in that episode and and frankly you know continues to sort of be explored and tiger tail. I think in a very different way but of course the kernel of an idea. Which is that our parents lives are just unfathomable and and different and and and and honestly much more epic in some ways than than our lives. You've made a couple of SERIO COMIC TELEVISION SHOWS. You know the the last couple. Tv shows you've made forever and master of none. Neither of them. Is You know a Yucca. Minute laugh fest. But they're definitely comedies and this film while it has funny characters. There's a part where the DEMAIM says. Somebody's husband looks like a toad. That's pretty funny. I love the reaction shot to thank very funny scene. But it's really not a comedy and did you feel the same sense of comfort waiting into that territory that you felt becoming director. Yeah I did and and you know you know. Some people have talked to me about that before. Like what made you want to do it and I really felt like it came from the story. I and the characters and and the world and and what? I was inspired by so it was very natural for me to say okay. Well what best serves this story and what John Nra would best sort of exemplify get across these themes and deliver the emotional message. I wanted to sort of pass on and it was very clear that it was a drama for me very early on in the process and it was also clear from the films. I was watching and what I was inspired by the the lofty goals. I had sort of making the movie and an which movies were sort of You know touchdowns and so yeah. I mean I was watching Edward Yang and watching ho-sheng watching and and you know those movies were less thirty minute Comedies and more dramatic so I was it was it was less thirty. Rock and more In the Mood for love but Yeah it was it was definitely you know. I guess maybe I should be more anxious about stuff like this but I just kind of you know. Charge straight ahead and and try to take on the task at hand. Was it difficult to cast the film given that there are relatively few Chinese and certainly Taiwanese actors and Thai Chinese Taiwanese American actors? Who are famous. Yeah I mean look the pool's smaller capable actors. It's you know we've I've talked about this with my Asian France. I'm like yeah if you want a thirty something white actress you've got so many options. There are amazing. They're all making Hanson and Allie Poor Manure Florence Pugh or cure nightly or whatever you got a million actors and they're amazing so many it's like it's unbelievable and then if you're like okay. Well we want an Asian actress or specifically taiwanese-american actresses like you might be ill name to all for maybe I don't know and so you just don't have the list right. There's no list I get sent to you. It's a it's a list of zero or one and so you're looking at it and that's why I feel really lucky to have found Christine call one time a- they are so talented in so emotive and so Really without being household names they they really understood the material and and really embodied the characters and you know gave me more than than I thought I even wanted. You know just I just I feel really really lucky to have them on board and and then by the same token it was also a challenge to go to Taiwan and Taiwanese actors because the vast majority of the people in the town. You section of the film are actually Taiwanese and so Finding Hong Lee and finding Yo Shing Fung and and and my. It was like okay. We're meeting these people person and you meet with the person and get a read on them and and you know find out how charismatic they are. That's that's that's kind of casting. You know it's something you generally can't teach and so I did a chemistry Tien Christine in America and I did a chemistry read with Hong Shee. And Yo- shing in Taiwan and they ended up being my leads. Did you have the language skills to understand? There's both Taiwanese and Mandarin in the film. Absolutely not so. My my mandarin is terrible and my Taiwanese is non existent so I was relying on a lot of translation and a lot of gut and a lot of gut instinct and sort of just my own judgment and I will say my mandarin got better over the course of filming and did my best to learn and I did my best to sort of just engaged and I realized I knew more than I thought I did because my parents did speak Mandarin to me growing up and it gets I guess it sinks in your bones a little bit because I do remember you know a couple of months into production. I was giving a note and the translator delivers my note in Mandarin to the actors. And then I guess they felt comfortable that point because they started freelancing. You're adding extra notes so that the translator will give my note and then say. Oh yeah this take. Pretend it's the first time you've met and act surprised in like like you don't know each other. It was like what are you doing? You can't do that and I said no don't do that you can't you can't add extra notes like this is not your job. The translator was a little taken aback. And that's what I think they realized and and the the actors realized that I could understand some mandarin and probably more than I let on so Yeah I got better and I'm still learning. I'm using duo lingo on my phone to learn mandarin so it's not the best way but it's better than nothing and I'm able to text. My parents are a little bit of a little bit of Chinese now. I was about to say. Have you considered just calling your folks now? It seems like a lot of work. I have one last casting question which is one of the people off of that. Short list of famous Asian American actors. John Show Scoop korean-american if I'm not mistaken and he's also an executive producer on the film. You shot with him and cut him out of the movie I presume. It wasn't because he did a bad job. He's a very good actor. Was it hard to have to like? Call Him and be LACAILLE executive producer. John show the only famous person in this movie. I decided your story line was in essential. It was one of the hardest things I've ever done. It's really hard man and not not only because of the fact that he obviously is is is a is. A big name is a famous person in a tremendous actor. But it's lake. He's put so much into the movie. And I I also want to mention Hayden's Ito and Christina also had some scenes that with with John that aren't in the final version of the movie and they all did tremendous work You know they did tremendous work. And it's the hardest thing in the world to tell someone you know you know you put your heart and soul into something and and and you delivered. It's not like he didn't deliver. They did they all do great work John included. And the movie just kind of tells you what it wants to be and and and you find what the core of it and the heart of it is as you're putting it together and so. I called John and he couldn't have been more gracious. He was in Australia. The time shooting cowboy bebop and and he he said some of the nicest. He said that he's like I've never gotten to do some of the stuff I've done in this movie. It will always be with me and I've already used some of the stuff. I learned tiger tail in subsequent work. And I just want to give you hug it the premier. And and and tell you congratulations. So unfortunately we don't have a premier but he literally texted me two days ago and he says I got to watch film said you know. He loved the movie and He wants to support it any way. He can so Much love to John. Hayden and and and for for being so supportive and and Christina's well you know Christine still has a a a great amount of scenes in the movie but it really It really is a testament to to all those actors that still so supportive and so warm and you know we're on really good terms had dinner with John and and You know we wanna work together again on something and so it's really the case of you know. I think this has happened to many movies in the past You hear about you know how how her was made or the thin red line was made or Annie Hall like all these movies You know they changed. They changed over the course of making them and I think that's one of the sort of challenges of making a movie is. You can't be rigid. You Watch what you have and you and you keep adjusting and you keep adjusting and you and you kind of keep working at it to make it the best that can be and you know you wouldn't be doing your job and you wouldn't be doing justice to to any of the actors or any of the people who worked on it if you weren't constantly trying to make it the best it can be. Was it harder call. John Tower called Net flicks. So let them know that the one movie star in the movie could remove a man. I think I think they. They saw the cotton they understood. So it's like. They just saw the the they saw the movie and they they were supportive. I you know again I those guys. I can't say enough about Netflix too. Because they let us make the movie WanNa make and we're also proud of it. Well Alan Yang. It's really lovely film. I am glad that you're proud of it and Thanks for taking this time to be on both sides especially in these unusual circumstances from from your home. Yeah thank you. So Much Jesse Allan Yak. Tiger tail is streaming now on net. Flex you should absolutely give it a watch. Also if you're looking for another TV show to stream. These days. Young series forever with Fred Armor and Maya Rudolph is funny weird and moving. You can catch that on Amazon prime. That's the end of another episode of Bullseye. Bullseye is currently being produced out of the homes of me and the Sheriff of Maximum Fund in and around Los Angeles California where unlike Billy Gibbons of Z. Z. Top I had what I can only describe as a mental break and shaved my beard off. It was unsuccessful. Looks Awful so despite the health benefits? I think I'm just going to grow at right back. Our show is free. Speaking into microphones. Our producer is Kevin Ferguson. Hey Suzanne Brosio is our associate producer. We get help from Casey. O'brien in our production fell is Jordan. Cowling are interstitial. Music is by Dan. Wally also known as DJ. W Dan has made a collection of music used on Bullseye available. Pay What you will on. Band camp Search for DJ W Bullseye their great great tunes to you know. Read a book by or whatever. Our theme song is by the go team. Thanks TO THEM AND THEIR LABEL MEMPHIS industries for letting US use it if you're hosting any parties with your immediate family members at home You should get one of their records. And if if you have some time on your hands we have tons of interviews in our back catalog if you like parks and recreation boy. We have talked to Nick Offerman. We've talked to read A. We've talked to Rashida Jones. We've talked to Adam. Scott Billy I ben Schwartz. Jenny slate Dan core who is also a writer on the show? He was just on our show. A couple weeks ago talking about His show That he created called Brooklyn nine nine which is a great show all of those available on our website at maximum fund dot org in almost all of them available in your favorite podcast. We're also on facebook twitter and Youtube. Just search for Bullseye. 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