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Robert Smalls (April 5, 1839 – February 23, 1915) was an enslaved African American who escaped to freedom and became a ship's pilot, sea captain, and politician. He freed himself, his crew and their families from slavery during the American Civil War by commandeering a Confederate transport ship, CSS Planter, in Charleston harbor, on May 13, 1862, and sailing it from Confederate-controlled waters to the U.S. blockade. His example and persuasion helped convince President Abraham Lincoln to accept African-American soldiers into the Union Armyand the Navy. Our theme song was written and performed by Anna Bosnick. If you’d like to support the show on a per episode basis, you can find our Patreon page here. Be sure to check our website for more details.
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Welcome to the radio magazine that brings you news, commentary and analysis from a Black Left perspective. I’m Glen Ford, along with my co-host Nellie Bailey. Coming up: Women in business and politics are being praised for acting like cutthroat capitalists and war-mongering men. But, is that feminism? And, a leader of South Africa’s newly-formed Socialist Revolutionary Workers Party explains why workers must take political power in that country. Dr. Martin Luther King is popularly known as a civil rights leader, but he was also deeply committed to the labor movement. Peter Cole teaches African American history at the University of Western Illinois. Cole is author of the book, "Dockworker Power: Race and Activism in Durban and the San Francisco Bay Area.” He says labor issues were a top priority for Dr. King, who early on saw himself as a kind of socialist. Women are engaged in all kinds of activities these days, including war, torture and cut-throat corporate business. But, is that progress? Dean Spade is a professor at the Seattle University School of Law, and co-author of a recent article titled, “There’s Nothing Feminist About Imperialism.” South Africa has been under Black political rule for the past 25 years, since the end of apartheid. But the African National Congress government left control of the economy in the hands of white business interests. The gap between rich and poor has gotten even bigger. After decades of frustration, activists centered in the nation’s largest labor union, NUMSA, the National Union of Metalworkers, last year formed a new political party to fight against white monopoly capitalist rule. Irvin Jim is the leader of NUMSA and a key architect of the new Socialist Revolutionary Workers Party. Last week, he traveled to New York City to speak with American activists at the People’s Forum. Also on hand at the People’s Forum was Dr. Cosmas Musumali, the General Secretary of the Socialist Party of the southern African nation of Zambia. The ruling party of Zambia has declared the Socialist Party to be a danger to national security, and party members are under constant danger of imprisonment. Dr. Musumali told his New York audience that the imperialist powers have enlisted African governments as collaborators in neocolonialism.
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Russia in Africa
The first scramble for Africa began in the late nineteenth century and losted until the beginning of World War One an unseemly dash by rival European powers to stakeout Africa's territory and resources without conspicuous regard for what Africa's people might have wanted a more. Recent second scramble has been spearheaded by China, and it is increasingly clear that this has been noticed by Russia. Russia certainly knows where Africa is the Soviet Union regarded Africa as both a continent sized customer base for its arms industry, and an ideological battleground modern Russia is perhaps less interested in recruiting to a worldwide proletarian revolution. So what does Moscow actually won't with African now is it merely resources of a trying to so more tanks? Are they looking for new allies? Or is this Russia, and it wouldn't be the first time just trying to screw things up for everyone else. And what do Russia's? Essential African partners think this is the foreign desk. Because African public's are becoming more informed. And because there are more opportunities to articulate concern or criticism. What's happening is that even if the government's get along and make agreements at some point you're going to have to reckon with the public perception of that relationship. Twenty five percent of the UN general assembly is clustered in Africa. And so if you want influence in the world, and through the UN systems than African votes, and African politics increasingly matters and essential part of this partnership, actually is Russian support to African countries in the United Nations council and vice versa. So it helps economically, but then it gets political support as well. Russia is definitely saying look if we're going to continue to be a global power, and we can't count on more friends in in Europe, we need friends who are around the world. And and you know, you're only have to look at Venezuela. Saudi Arabia, obviously serious is the best example of this Russia is seeking to continue to show that it has friends around the world. It has influenced that continue to be a global. Hello and welcome to the foreign desk on Andrew my guests for the first part of this program. I Henry Ford the financial times Moscow bureau chief and this dossier Ostrovskaya financial times correspondent in Moscow covering energy mining and central Asia does Russia Henry have a an actual definable Africa's strategy in and of itself or or is it just playing catch up with China and the United States among others. That is a very good question. I think yes, it does. I think since two thousand fourteen Russia's had very different global foreign policy energy than we've seen prior to that when the west and sanctions came in and Russia realized that it's friendships some tenuous some strong with with the west with with with Europe in the US and other countries were under threat it had to find new friends we've seen that most prominently in its pivot towards China. It's friendships in the Middle East, and increasingly so we're saying that Africa. And so that takes the form of Moscow extending political support defense contr. Acts and trade arrangements with African countries as a means to achieve two things. One is to have more friends around the world. And Secondly is to is to meddle is to upset the traditional western powers in Africa and get them to think about this dossier. We'll look at the Y to politics of this as well. But just in terms of resources, which was certainly the thing which seemed to be on depending China's interest in Africa, at least initially to what extent is that important to Russia Africa as a source of natural resources says Russia has already several commercial engagements with Africa from the metals aluminum minds in Guinea Arosa. The diamond company is planning to enter Zimbabwe for Assad Dom, which is the state nuclear agency is working in psalm being Wanda and his planning several projects elsewhere in Africa. But what's interesting in the last few years is that? The energy sector. So Russian companies are entering more and more countries in Africa to extract oil and guests some have had projects there before twenty fourteen. But then since the sanctions were expanded onto the Russian energy sector such companies as Rosneft and Lukoil and Gazprom and Gazprom Neft started going back to those projects seen newer opportunities. Perhaps even though they were disappointed there before Henry Africa is is not obviously entirely I ground to Russia. There was a long history of Soviet in gauge -ment with Africa is the any of lep between those two things because obviously the Soviet engagement in Africa had a strong ideological component. This was the Soviet Union attempting to add to its legions of revolutionary footsoldiers as anything of that left to Russia's doing in Africa. Indeed, I think actually there are quite strong parallels in as much as this is Russia's seeking at the moment. At least to say, we are still. Global power. We are still aged political superpower, we should be seen on the level of of the US of China of the EU, we have friends all around the world. And so it's actually found a lot of fertile ground countries like Gola, Egypt, Mozambique. These were these were countries with close ties this of union, indeed some of their leaders today were educated in Moscow during the seventies and eighties and a lot of their military leaders were trained by Soviet generals and end Soviet training courses. So there are certain parallels. Obviously, we are not in a Cold War situation where countries are being picked off on my one and put on side by side. But I think Russia is definitely saying look if we are going to continue to be a global power, and we can't count on more friends in in Europe, we need friends over around the world. And and you know, you only have to look at Venezuela. Saudi arabia. I mean, obviously serious is the best example of this. But Russia is seeking at the moment to continue to show that it has friends around the world that it has influenced it continued to be a global superpower full on that up. Henry to what extent is Russia hoping to draw on the military aspect of that relationship? In particular. We know obviously Russia has the Soviet Union were huge supplies of arms to Africa, thousands of African military. Still rely heavily on the t fifty four t fifty five tank is that aspect of the relationship. Still important. Absolutely. The stock. I'm instinct for peace statistics show that in two thousand seventeen Russia doubled his Africa exports of arms, and so definitely this is a huge puttable the doing, and of course, African countries are willing to shop around for their goods, but Russian technology is normally cheaper. It's normally more compatible with the existing legacy things that they have in. It comes without as many ties and say American to European arms. The key thing here is that they have these ties as you said from the Soviet Union countries in Africa know, they can trust the Soviet Union. They need to these weapons and Russia's willing to supply them the final point on on that question is that people forget that all of the the great Russian industries that are still left energy would probably be the office. But the defense industry is still a very powerful part of the Russian industrial complex, and it's one that Moscow's incredibly proud of. And it's one that has. Has the technology to compete with the west? And so this is normally their first calling card star all ask you a similar question on the energy front rather on the military front is as Henry was pointing out African countries are in a position to shop around for collaborators from elsewhere possibly now more than ever, but when Russian energy companies are trying to interest African collaborators African partners. What's their pitch? What pitch does Russia make saying you should work with us as opposed to say, China, the United States or France? So Russia does is against places that the west considers to rescue the second thing it does is offering those services at competitive prices. So for example, Russia cannot provide the loans that China, Ken, but Russia can extract resources it can provide loans as well that are not so large, but two countries where western countries or China won't go an essential part of the Spartan. Ship actually is Russian support to African countries in the United Nations council and vice versa. Russia could use some support in the US right now from the western countries. So it helps economically, but then it gets the political support as well just to follow that up this dossier. When you talk about the the African countries that China, the United States, other international players are a bit reluctant to deal with various reasons there any countries in particular that that Russia has made a special point of courting in recent years, we've had representatives from all Jerry, come to Moscow and agree supply of jet planes to Algiers, the may be car planned to build a lot of cars in all geria- before that Russian foreign ministry said Sagala of did a whole tour around northern Africa also in a show of increasing Russia's interest in the northern Africa. So northern Africa was historically the big ally. But now. Oh, we see Russia expanding into more southern States, South Africa is one of them. That's where Russia has nickel project and where Russia was planning to build a nuclear power plant if that comes through. So we're seeing this expansion across the whole continent. I think just just jump in there. I mean, the obvious ones the spring to mind would be Imbaba Managua was in was in Moscow earlier this year, and this is a country that western states have been distant from China's been present there. But in recent years, it's found itself struggling to build closer relationships with the western Russia who has no qualms about that. It's moving in its building diamond mines, it's supporting them with technology with loans. The other two obvious ones would be the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the Central African Republic. The is a real trouble a real trouble spot in on the continent. Colonial power France is really struggled to get any kind of hold in terms of military presence of peacekeeping mission. The UN has been blocking arms shipments. Russia's stepped in Austrian said, we'll do the arms they found a way around it. They found a way through the UN. They've started supplying a lot of arms. They've started supplying politically play loads of of military trainers who are going in and training the president's elite. God's the military advisor to the president essentially one of the most powerful men in the country. I mean, the equivalent of John Bolton national security national security advisor in the US is a Russian national a former Russian intelligence official. So this is a country where the west has said this is too hot to handle in Russia's said, we'll find we'll step in problem. And of course, it was in the last July. I'm three Russian journalists who are investigating the operations of a Russian mercenary group Wagner will murdered in the twilight rate on that Jeep in rural Central African Republic. And that was really the event that I think for many people many observers the Russian activity in Africa became incredibly apparent Henry that does raise the question of what steps we might see Russia take to protect its growing interests in Africa. You mentioned the case of the Central African Republic, which is quite a good case study. For what in the Stasi was just talking about that it is a place that is difficult. Entities. Dangerous, and it is risky and western nations, even France, the former colonial power are reluctant to get to engage with it. But is that likely to be an indicator of the sort of thing, we might see more of if not actual Russian troops than those semi deniable military contractors who we have seen it work in in Ukraine and Syria under elsewhere. Absolutely. And of course, the moment Rimet in Venezuela. They denied by the Kremlin absolately. I for me. What was really interesting was after the election in the Democratic Republic of Congo, which of course, was heavily criticised by some international countries. The financial times published data that showed it was fraudulent result. Russia was the most loudest speaker in the international community, saying leave this alone. Let the Congolese people decide their own destiny and saying essentially step back. I would not be surprised if we see deeper deeper defense cooperation between the Congo and Russia, there's also Muslim. Peak which of course, has has strong ties to the Cold War with the Soviet Union where Russia is supplying weapons Intel weapons training and military advice. And so this is an easy essentially cheap way of getting in. I mean, you don't need to deploy numbers of full forces of defense. Ministry officials you send this private company essentially who if they lose money if it goes wrong, it's fine. They pull out if they if they make money if they if they make good relationships if they get friendly with the president with the president's gods, whatever that is a fantastic foothold. And I think the most important point to make Andrea is that in Africa, China is the money in Russia is the muscle. It is important to distinguish between the two countries. They don't really fighting Russia for one knows it can't compete with China as an associate was saying, it doesn't have the deep pockets that Beijing does and it doesn't have the desire for natural resources. It supplies it. So in metals domestically supplies it. So us a different story for China. So Russia is happy to go in and do the more speculative stuff the cheaper more on the edge. Defense mercenaries arm supplies, while China's building the roads building the the national football stadiums in exchange for the rights to mine coal gas. And so they they complement each other frankly, and both of them come with less of a focus on on the human rights, and the democracy agenda that western countries have always brought to to Africa in terms of doing doing business, and that for some African leaders sits more comfortably this dossier. Does Russia's engagement in Africa play it all into Vladimir Putin in particular, his his domestic political agenda of from where you are in Moscow. Is this something you see getting discussed or talked about a lot not a lot yet. But there is a trend Hooton clearly needs more allies as he's losing allies in the west and Africa seems to be this yet may be politically unoccupied territory, also what Russia's foreign ministry saying is that the Russian never never interfere. With the political processes in Africa. Unlike European countries, which have colonized several countries in Africa. So it presents itself as this neutral ally, which can be of help like I said in the UN council and other organizations Henry just as as a final thought looking ahead to the next few years. How careful does Russia need to be in managing its presence in Africa. So that it doesn't bring itself into I mean, not necessarily military conflict but diplomatic or political conflict with other superpowers. Although there has been some talk of an actual Russian military base in the Central African Republic, which you cannot imagine would delight France. No, of course, not. And this is something that I think is top of the list of red flags for the European if you like the EU foreign policy towards Africa. Look what Russia really wants it. Once some kind of military presence near the Red Sea. That would be really key in terms of protecting shipping routes, and the Chinese have a base there. Now. And said Russia is also looking at something there. It doesn't need to think heavily about being dragged into any kind of long term struggle. The war in Syria has been on balanced successor Moscow, but it is becoming increasingly expensive it's operations in Ukraine again are becoming a bit of a drag. We don't see that public perception bounce that we saw in two thousand fourteen two thousand fifteen in Russia. So I do think Russia needs to be careful. It needs to needs to make sure that it's only ever committing as much as it's willing to lose in Africa as we continue to that. It doesn't have the deep pockets of the Chinese. But at the moment, it is doing the things that is low hanging fruit. It's cheap. It's good initiatives that really have high high reward and low risk, and I don't think frankly, Russia has the appetite nor the nor the inclination to to really deeply embedded in these countries. And I think if you look at what's happening in Venezuela in recent days with Moscow sort of talking about the need for the need for Reconsiliation in the need for talks between the opposition. And the government that that is a good sign of how it I imagined. It would operate in. Africa. These are these are allies, these are new friends, but it push came to shove, it wouldn't it wouldn't really fully deploys entire diplomatic way to to keep a relationship by that going if the rest of the world was against Henry for Anastazia estrogen sky. Thank you both very much for joining us. You're listening to the foreign desk. For look up the impact of Russian and other foreign investment on domestic African politics. Joined from Nairobi by Undset, say wear a development, communist and columnist for business daily. And so you first of all when we think about Russia's increasing interest in various countries in Africa. Do you think within those countries this much suspicion of Russia's motives? I mean, I think to begin with people on really aware of what Russia's doing in Africa, the scattered investment, the motivations of their interest their sectors of focused their economic diplomacy style their military interests, or their technological ambitions. So everybody's still obsessing about China. So I think it will take some time before the general shift begins to incorporate Russia bit more consistently that being the case is Russia's investment and involvement in Africa yet at all noticeable factor in the domestic politics. Wchs various African countries. But I think they've been very selective in terms. The way they're they've been focusing their interest. I think certainly the staff region they're barely on the radar. But if you look at some of the areas that a bit more resource intense, particularly, you know, the big economies on goal certain accent, South Africa, and some of the other MAURICE in Dowd. I think you'll find the as far more interest there. I mean, generally east Africa doesn't feature a lot if the investing power or the investing interest is mainly interested in natural resources because the fines in the region are still very young very new. So I just as I said, I think this is an area that still very new for a a lot of Africa watchers, and we'll see we'll see what happens going forward if we broaden. If we broaden the conversation out a little bit, then other any lessons brushing might be able to glean from the recent big investors in Africa, China in particular, other parts of Africa where China has involved self. It has become a factor in the local politics, and perhaps even somewhat resented by the local populations. But I think the I think it's an interesting that you're pulling China into this because of China's newest kid on the block in Africa. If it compared to sort of Europe and North American entities. I mean, yes, definitely Russia. Can learn a lot both from China. But also from Europe North America, I think number one in terms of Europe in North America. I think what Russia needs to learn from them is how to be relevant and speak to the needs. And interests of the local people, they African citizens and the governments. I think Europe and North America, I've been quite outdated in strategies that they use and if sort of our? Clips by China in terms of the uptake, not only by African governments. But also African private sector in terms of the role that they paint the supply chain. I think the other thing musher can learn about this interaction with Africa did needs to be very clear on its communication strategy. And how to be projected on the continent. I think one thing China has learned quite quickly is that a narrative about China's involvement in Africa is not necessarily dominated by an African audience or by Chinese our audience perspective. What happens is that European and North American narratives begin to dominate the commentary on on the country. So I think Russia will need to think we're clearly about how they're going to respond to the narratives of Russia in Africa. And what role they're gonna play in terms of the conflict. They bring on the continent. I think this more broadly Russia is interesting is entering Africa in interesting time because I think China's proven that there is an alternative model to interact with African manner. That's profitable. And that also yields significant. Political leverage. I think prior to China's involvement I'm going to have been much harder for Russia to to come and play in Africa because interactions with the continent in terms of large. External powers were dominated by this school of thought in Europe and North America, which is a by Taylor human rights in governance and trying to control corruption and all these things then China came in and completely changed the script really focusing on economic diplomacy infrastructure development, and really not I'm lecturing African governments about anything else. So I think it's an interesting time. We'll see what Russians model will look like going forward. Do you think the Chinese presence, then has therefore possibly change the way that African countries look at foreign investment because as you correctly point out for possibly not necessarily the most notable of reasons, but there it is China has been far less interested in in telling Africa what to do, and what to think and how it should be haven, perhaps previous foreign investors might have for that. Reason of our African countries in African governments perhaps less suspicious now than they might have had reason to be a few decades ago. I think you should contextualized that in the reality that this is a multiple world Africa's really stepping into Russia's one of many interested parties in in Africa. Now, I think let me just see this by saying because China's model so different because China's been able you know, the economic diplomacy aside if you look at the stability of the Chinese to come in secure market share in Africa creates a significant trade deficits created a demand for Chinese goods. I think that has also prompted Europe and author migratory think their model and to figure out how do we actually leverage this growing continents that not only is growing terms of numbers, but slowly becoming richer over time. So I think Russia is gonna be one of the many new pairs are now coming into Africa more aggressively, whether those are the Gulf states or Brazil or India mature what I'm finding is out over the past. I'd say five. Here's the multiple Larry the options that Africa has is growing and in Russia is among them. Do you think it's possible that African countries might regard a more just strictly in plainly, transactional arrangement with a foreign investor such as China or indeed Russia as less onerous against a certain amount of the baggage that the Europeans tended to bring with them. I think it depends on who you're talking to me, and certainly doesn't African governments. They prefer the transactional economic diplomacy. Let's just agree to the economic deals now. What's happening is that because African public becoming more informed. And because there are more opportunities to articulate concern or criticism. What's happening is that even if the government's get along and make agreements at some point you're going to have to reckon with the public perception of that relationship. So yes. Mironov america. I think African governments had sort of gotten needs to their style. They didn't particularly like it. And then China came in the game. Now, what's happening is that there is a lot of private sector, you know, supply chain involvement in China. But there's also a lot of concern, particularly by civil society around some of the way, China does business in Africa. I'm so I think going forward. Russia cannot assume that if they get along the African governments, but are seen to not being responsible respective of the concerns of the African citizens that Bill be able to continue working easily when I think one of the key things. Russia should get right. From the beginning as transparency of the type of deals now given the leadership in Russia. I don't know how feasible that is one of the biggest criticisms coming out. I think in terms with China Africa relationship despite all the benefits recruit such as the significant investments in helping our infrastructure grow in creating more affordable supply chains that feed into the private sector ecosystem, despite all of those things the lack of transparency in terms of the deals that are being. Agreed to are becoming more and more of an issue. And I think question needs to be cognizant of that Undset say where right. Thank you for joining us on the foreign desk. Going back to where we came in. Then this program is not the first to have noted the onset of a second scramble for Africa for starters. There. A one point two billion Africans who have doubtless picked up on it. But is the rush in which Russia is now participating an entirely new phenomenon. Own mealy, a new take on old school colonialism on join now by Dr Alex vines, head of the Africa program at Chatham house. Alex when we take a look at who is interested in Africa now, and why the interested in it and how they manifesting that interest. Does it bear any similarity at told what was known as the previous scramble for Africa in the late nineteenth and early twentieth. Centuries. Well, European countries has still very prominent in Africa and the European Union is upgrading its engagement. The United Kingdom has had an uplift of its own strategy. It was agreed by the national Security Council of. The UK around a year ago. In fact, Germany is also looking at how to be more engaged so Europeans still by problem in the continent despite the history of colonialism and imperialism and then others emerging or reemerging being more engaged. So more countries are being involved in Africa now than than in the nineteenth century. The methodology has obviously changed since then what we are witnessing now is not an explicit exercise in imperial conquest. But but all the objectives at all similar our other countries interested in Africa now for essentially, the same reasons they were interested in Africa one hundred years ago with their abouts. Well, it's a mixture there isn't mercantilists. Dick drive for a number of countries. So Africa's raw materials, I mean, not necessarily human beings. Now that were part of the calculation of early colonialism of see the very deplorable experience with slavery. But. The natural resources minerals in particular rariffs, Colton bauxite those sorts of things that driving an interest in Africa by a number of different countries. So that's why a number of European countries are involved. It's also why the Russians are now reengaging with Africa. It's why the Chinese and other. Asian powers are also interested, and it is bringing in some of the Gulf states for the first time. There's also driver which is about geopolitics one of the things about Africa. It's a vast area in the world. It's the youngest continent in the world. But probably more significant of all of this is that twenty five percent of the UN general assembly is clustered in Africa because it's got so many countries fifty four countries are recognized by the UN. And so if you want influence in the world and through the UN systems, then African votes and African politics increasingly matters. So that's also driver in terms of the politics of this. You framed there as an exercise in winning friends and influencing nations, if you will make sure or to encourage the idea that you might have more allies at the United Nations, but beyond that is the any kind of ideological aspects to it in a way that there might have been in the Cold War is is China, for example, trying to export any aspect of its own revolution to Africa Sunday African votes in protecting your own vision of the world and future. Africa is important. So the future of the internet or the future global governance or the reform of global institutions to have a stronger Chinese taste and vision to them then the numbers game, really matters. And so that's part of it. And I tend to think that's one of the reasons that the Russians have reengaged Africa is to protect some of their interests, which are not in Africa, but to get African support. So the numbers really do. Matter here, and it's the Chinese wet this out a long time ago, except for one year, the first place, a Chinese Foreign Minister visits in early January is always an African country, and that was to do with the Chinese recognized that it was African support through the UN general assembly that got the move of recognition to Beijing from Taipei the capital of the island of Taiwan. And so the Chinese recognized that the numbers game is really important in terms of geo, politics and global politics. So is there any way at all in which this is also a bit of a good old fashioned superpower struggle that this is Russia and China and the United States competing for influence. Well, the US last year late last year unveiled a new Africa strategy, which is a Trump version of previous strategies, and that was underpinned really the sharpness of that strategy. Was all about containing Russia and China's rise in Africa. It wasn't really about Africans Tolan African space. I tend to think that's unfortunate because there are lots of things going on in Africa. And one of the things that the international competition, the beauty contest of internationals. In Africa forgets is Africans themselves have their own agency their own agendas. It's their own geography, and they are very effectively at times playing off these outside suitors and extract value for their own politics. So you can't look at Africa as a blank canvas it's just being stomped over by neo-colonialists Neo or new wave low balists. Indeed. No. But that notwithstanding are we beginning to see are we likely to begin to see the establishment of what might be thought of spheres of influence, they'll be particular areas or particular countries that which China is the dog. Dominant foreign foreign influence Aurium which Russia or the United States or France. I guess at the dominant foreign influence, my own take on this is that what you getting more of his African countries wanting diversification, and so not having any country too powerful. So the politics of diversification of diversity, and international relations is becoming much more evident having said that there are clearly countries that very closely locked in with particular powers. The Chinese have certainly invested heavily in recent years on the small Gulf of Aden. Red Sea country of Djibouti, for example, which has got very indebted to China, although host a lots of other international military bases. The country of Angola has been very reliant on loans and construction by China, and that's to do with that angler is the second largest source of imported oil to China. So that relationship is key in very strategic. Dick and old powers like France. Still see at parts of Africa is very strategic and important to them. The saw hell is not only a French narrow abroad because of issues of migration. But some of your listeners might not appreciate that. Until recently seven percent of France's energy supply is derived from uranium from nesia. So that is very strategic because the lights in France are reliant on Nizhny uranium so deep strategy comes into it. Alex filings from Chatham house. Thank you very much for joining us. That's it for this episode of the foreign desk where back next week and look out for the foreign desk. Explainer available every Wednesday. The foreign desk is produced by Yolene go fan and Bill rucci building also edits the program and thanks also to page Reynolds for her help this week. My name's Andrew Miller. Thanks very much for listening until next time. Goodbye.
Monocle 24: The Foreign Desk